League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold [Archive] - Page 2

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-16, 08:47 AM

Who is usually picked to shut down Jax? =V

Malphite, as has been mentioned, is stupid good at shutting down Jax if built properly. But depending on the ADC he isn't that great of a choice. If the enemy has picked Vayne, then picking Malphite to counter both of them does beautiful things.

Yorick, if built properly, shuts down Jax very well.

Irelia vs Jax is a skill-matchup I feel.

Garen is a flat hard counter to Jax, but likely won't fit your teamcomp.

Darius is very strong versus Jax, but may/may not fit your teamcomp. Remember to dunk early if you wanna 1v1 Jax easily.

Surprisingly, Rengar can do well against Jax if you're maxing W first. But that may be a skill-matchup.

Pantheon vs Jax: As has been addressed, the issue of scaling means Jax may or may not be more useful to his team. Essentially it's a question of whether Pantheon gets jungle help or not, because he's one of those laners that does stupidly well with jungle help.

Does that turret have an item? (http://i.imgur.com/MtcsG.jpg) :smallconfused::smalleek:

I notice the tower Kog's player has targeted has an item in its inventory.

Bit late to the party there Cheese.

NineThePuma

2012-11-16, 08:52 AM

Minor note: his name is Chess, not Cheese :P

I took rengar into Jax, but was maxing E like a fool, apparently. He trashed me pretty hard core.

Reynard

2012-11-16, 08:54 AM

So the PBE is a special, special place. That first item in my inventory is Runaan's Hurricane, and it's my new favourite thing. ... Is everyone on the PBE as ridiculously bad as the people I ended up with?

http://i.imgur.com/x9SuU.jpg

Well, I've posted on this before. Most of is that people don't really care about PBE games, especially normals, since they don't reflect on your actual accounts ELO/Normal ELO.

Fun PBE fact of the day: Hydra's active counts as an ability for Lee Sin's Passive. I'm tempted to rush it on Jungle Lee, just because holy hell does it make him faster.

sonofzeal

2012-11-16, 08:59 AM

Hmmm.... I'm now tempted to get PBE simply for the less competitive atmosphere, and more room for odd builds. Thoughts?

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-16, 09:01 AM

Minor note: his name is Chess, not Cheese :P

I took rengar into Jax, but was maxing E like a fool, apparently. He trashed me pretty hard core.

Cheese, Chess, they're the same thing really.

As far as playing Rango vs Jax: I favor maxing W because it grants you A) defenses, which you're desperate for, and B) damage that Jax can't ignore. I follow that up with an E max, then a Q max.

Jax will likely be building Boots+3 into double dorans into Phage, or Sheen. You'll likely go something like boots+3 into chain vest into whatever else. This protects you from early Jax's physical bias(Q, regular autos). Maxing W vs Q also gives you a good amount of damage that isn't dependent on your AD, and you're unlikely to build a lot of that early on.

However, Rango also does very well with jungle help. So if you've got Mao/Malph/Whoever else has a snare/stun in the jungle then it'd be a good idea to call them up for ganks. If you're able to get reliable ganks, then you can just max Q instead of E for DPS. Just remember to not double-Q when he's spinning his stick.

Reynard

2012-11-16, 09:03 AM

Hmmm.... I'm now tempted to get PBE simply for the less competitive atmosphere, and more room for odd builds. Thoughts?

vov. If you're just looking to play the game for fun, it's alight, and the getting free RP and IP thing is pretty cool, but it's a much smaller capacity server (i.e. you get massive login queues), and it can be pretty unstable with each new champ pre-release.

Also, the fact you currently can't sign up for it may put a damper on your plan, sadly.

Forrestfire

2012-11-16, 09:24 AM

Fun PBE fact of the day: Hydra's active counts as an ability for Lee Sin's Passive. I'm tempted to rush it on Jungle Lee, just because holy hell does it make him faster.

:smalleek:

That's... extremely awesome. How much does it cost to buy, by the way?

Reynard

2012-11-16, 09:35 AM

:smalleek:

That's... extremely awesome. How much does it cost to buy, by the way?

It's pricey, yeah. About 3k I think. Can't be sure, since I'm not currently in the PBE and there's a 1 hour queue time atm, but it builds from Tiamat and Vamp.

I'm not sure what I think of the new Vamp, but BT got a buff out of it. Up to +70 ad from +60, but stacks reduced to a max of +30.

Oh, yeah. Almost forgot the BEST THING. Utility tree gives you a BISCUIT.

Delusion

2012-11-16, 09:39 AM

Have to tinker a new Irelia build because they remove Ionic spark.:smallsigh:

Forrestfire

2012-11-16, 09:48 AM

Ugh, why do people ragequit?

Decided on a whim to play some ranked, and we got an akali who goes 0/7/2 with 16 cs, then says "I'm out" and leaves.

When we could probably have still won, since the Draven was 8/3/0 at the time.

Ugh. :smallmad:

And it was a placement game, too :smallfrown:

It's pricey, yeah. About 3k I think. Can't be sure, since I'm not currently in the PBE and there's a 1 hour queue time atm, but it builds from Tiamat and Vamp.

Wait, what? A ranged-only item builds out of an item that's useless to ranged champions? That makes total sense...

Whoops, my bad.

NineThePuma

2012-11-16, 09:50 AM

Hydra is the Tiamat upgrade.

You're thinking Hurricane.

toasty

2012-11-16, 10:37 AM

People leave cuz their dumb. I lost almost all of my placement matches and am now in 1100 elo (I was 1453 or something before), I have to gain back all that elo, probably very slowly. Its mostly my fault, because I wasn't enough of a jerk to demand top and just destroy people, but multiple games I didn't do much worth mentioning.

@Items: Its a pretty huge change. It'll probably take the pros a good while to figure out things. This is why Season 3 official won't start for a while and pros have been given a preview of all the items. It'll take a while for us to see exactly what all this stuff means, but right now all I can say is:

THEY ADDED BATTLEFURY TO LEAGUE ITS NOW ACTUALLY GOOD YES SPLIT PUSH ALL DAAAAAAAAAY

In other news:
So I've been playing Darius recently. Experimented with different builds. In lane he seems impossible to really "beat" if you make so much as 1 small mistake and/or aren't ranged, but outside of that he becomes very... meh, often times. Thoughts, tips, suggestions?

My current favorite build is probably Frozen Mallet rush, followed by tanky items. I've also messed around with Sunfire Cape rush and then... just tanky items. So yeah, I've been doing lots of tanky items. Is BT even fun on him, or do you just die? (Also: Last Whisper+Max E = 55% armor pen wtf)

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-16, 10:47 AM

ex cathedra

2012-11-16, 11:10 AM

In other news:
So I've been playing Darius recently. Experimented with different builds. In lane he seems impossible to really "beat" if you make so much as 1 small mistake and/or aren't ranged, but outside of that he becomes very... meh, often times. Thoughts, tips, suggestions?

My current favorite build is probably Frozen Mallet rush, followed by tanky items. I've also messed around with Sunfire Cape rush and then... just tanky items. So yeah, I've been doing lots of tanky items. Is BT even fun on him, or do you just die? (Also: Last Whisper+Max E = 55% armor pen wtf)

CDR tank please. Like Olaf, really. Qing more = more AoE physical damage, more AoE magic DoTs, and easier chain ults. Also, W + Randuin's + FH lol

toasty

2012-11-16, 12:12 PM

CDR tank please. Like Olaf, really. Qing more = more AoE physical damage, more AoE magic DoTs, and easier chain ults. Also, W + Randuin's + FH lol

I realize how inherently funny FH+OMen is, yeah. But I have this strange obsession with Frozen Mallet on my bruisers.

ex cathedra

2012-11-16, 12:19 PM

Get it? That leaves you a slot for GA/Aegis/Hexdrinker. Perfect build. Edit: oh my god, after patch, use that slot on the BFS+QSS ugrade. Double perfect. Triple active builds are OP.

Eldariel

2012-11-16, 12:19 PM

I realize how inherently funny FH+OMen is, yeah. But I have this strange obsession with Frozen Mallet on my bruisers.

Nothing wrong with both. My go-to Olaf builds generally have FH, Omen, Aegis, Mallet and some more MR if enemy has any respectable magic damage threats. Of course it's kinda annoying that you really want Shurelya's on him but Shurelya's/Omen/FH means any Mastery-based CDR is wasted and he can easily get a ton of it.

MCerberus

2012-11-16, 12:22 PM

Hmm... Arcane Helix...
That may be fun for blue-reliant mages... and yet ANOTHER recipe Anivia can do silly things with that requires a catalyst. (Oh you're sieging this tower? I'll just put this ult down to stop you and CRAZY HEAL)

New Avarice Blade: OH GOD THE BANKPLANK
Boots of Speed: Now has kinda-tenacity... that... changes my Anivia build
DFG: You fools! You've unleashed the madness of AP Rengar again!
Frozen Fist: Oh man, that's going to be fun on Zyra
Ohmwrecker: Oh god the diving
Warmog's: RIP old Warmog's
Zephyr: There's your AD Cooldown item

NineThePuma

2012-11-16, 12:27 PM

I'm really wishing I could get onto the PBE right now.

I want to try out Crazy Awesome On-Hit/AP Teemo (Sorc Shoes, Malady, Wits End/Hurricane, Death Cap, Nashor's, + 1 slot for something defensively useful, such as GA or randuins or something)

Delusion

2012-11-16, 12:27 PM

Btw does anyone know where to look for exact stats/prices of the new items?

MCerberus

2012-11-16, 12:29 PM

Btw does anyone know where to look for exact stats/prices of the new items?

It's down a bit here (http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22382-pbe-changes-for-11-15-season-3-items-patch-nami)

toasty

2012-11-16, 12:34 PM

Get it? That leaves you a slot for GA/Aegis/Hexdrinker. Perfect build. Edit: oh my god, after patch, use that slot on the BFS+QSS ugrade. Double perfect. Triple active builds are OP.

Hexdrinker always seems so ... I dunno, I like it but I don't want to buy it. I'm also going through a moment where I realize FoN+Mallet is actually kinda awesome vs. AP. Too bad FoN is gonna go bye-bye. :smallsigh:

But yeah, new items are gonna make me so happy. That BFS item is like... a Bruiser's dream come true.

Nothing wrong with both. My go-to Olaf builds generally have FH, Omen, Aegis, Mallet and some more MR if enemy has any respectable magic damage threats. Of course it's kinda annoying that you really want Shurelya's on him but Shurelya's/Omen/FH means any Mastery-based CDR is wasted and he can easily get a ton of it.

Its funny because it means ADs can't do much to you until they get either crazy crit and/or Last Whisper.

Mastery CDR may be wasted, so just go Offensive true or 9/12/9 or whatever it is. A favorite trick of mine is to get all the move speed masteries, movespeed quints, and then just destroy people.

Also: Thoughts on starting W. How easy is it to all-in someone if you do it? I've recently realized how strong aggressive all-ins are top lane in certain matchups.

Delusion

2012-11-16, 12:40 PM

It's down a bit here (http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22382-pbe-changes-for-11-15-season-3-items-patch-nami)

Thank you ^^

NineThePuma

2012-11-16, 12:42 PM

New Malady just turned fraking awesome on Teemo.

Forrestfire

2012-11-16, 12:42 PM

I really want to try AP Nami if she keeps those ratios when she comes out. AoE stun with .75 AP Ratio? Holy crap!

Also, "Morellonomicon" is an extremely silly name :smalltongue:

Archangel Yuki

2012-11-16, 01:11 PM

Here (http://imgur.com/a/XS0bH#0) is a list of all the new items/costs/stats

Ivellius

2012-11-16, 01:31 PM

Fellow Summoners! I come to this thread desiring input into my next champion purchase. I have accumulated a large IP store and have narrowed down my potential decisions into the following champions:

Darius
Fiora
Irelia
Corki
Lux

Everyone vote because I don't have a strong preference for any of them. I mainly play supports and junglers these days because I don't like insta-locking and those get the least thanks. My better champions are durable; I don't like dying and I like to charge into battles. I do less frequently play top lane, and I've had an odd stretch in which I've been pegged as bottom-lane carry. The last role is probably my weakest--my selection of champions there is limited to Ashe and Tristana with any skill, though I do own Twitch and Sivir. I'd probably learn Twitch if I played that role more. Yes, those are literally my only ranged AD carries. Draven does have a lot of style, but I don't feel terribly uncomfortable with my limited selection there.

Tychris1

2012-11-16, 02:08 PM

I vote for Darius and Fiora. One's a roflstomping slam dunking top lane kill machine stud. And the other is a rocking, AA blockimg, gap closing, in yourface bouncing around like a ping pong ball french duelist. Plus there voices are cool.

Temotei

2012-11-16, 02:10 PM

Darius
Fiora
Irelia
Corki
Lux

I'm voting for Irelia, followed by Fiora, then Corki, then Lux, then Darius.

Math_Mage

2012-11-16, 02:10 PM

Corki would round out your AD list pretty hard, giving you a lane dominator to go with your utility- and damage-based late-game carries.

Its funny because it means ADs can't do much to you until they get either crazy crit and/or Last Whisper.

Mastery CDR may be wasted, so just go Offensive true or 9/12/9 or whatever it is. A favorite trick of mine is to get all the move speed masteries, movespeed quints, and then just destroy people.

Also: Thoughts on starting W. How easy is it to all-in someone if you do it? I've recently realized how strong aggressive all-ins are top lane in certain matchups.

Q is better for all-in than W. Also, AD will usually have either crits or LW by the time you have both FH and Omen unless you're stomping; you buy it precisely so that you don't get stomped by their damage.

toasty

2012-11-16, 02:17 PM

Corki would round out your AD list pretty hard, giving you a lane dominator to go with your utility- and damage-based late-game carries.

Q is better for all-in than W. Also, AD will usually have either crits or LW by the time you have both FH and Omen unless you're stomping; you buy it precisely so that you don't get stomped by their damage.

If you rush a Frozen Heart as a top laner, you can get it sometimes before the AD has IE. If the AD went IE and you went FH first they can't duel you as many, many top laners, including tanks like Malphite and probably Moakai.

Yes, by the time you get FH+Omen its very unlikely you can duel an AD carry, but it does happen, especially if the AD is behind in any way. Especially at my elo. Its sad though when a 35 minute Ashe can't duel a 25 minute Hec with Triforce/FoN

Silverraptor

2012-11-16, 02:35 PM

Anyone else having a problem where they can't reconnect to a game?

I decided to practice jungle Amumu in beginner bots, fix my path. At 1:20, the game stops and it gives me attempting to reconnect. After 2 minutes of waiting fruitlessly for that, I went and reset my router (yes, I am on hardline). It's (probably) not a bad connection after I did the router reset.

I went to log back in, and the game is giving me the dreaded "Connection Error: cannot connect to PvP.net servers" message. Multiple times. With latest Windows updates installed, and a few restarts.

Basically, anyone else having the same problem? And thank god it wasn't a Normal, it was just bots. My unintentional leave didn't ruin a victory (I hope :smalleek:)

The official League Wobsite appears to be down as well.

Yeah, me too. I'm having a weird issue like that. Though I just leave the game and attempt to connect a few times and then it finally works.

Here (http://imgur.com/a/XS0bH#0) is a list of all the new items/costs/stats

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx4gg6Ftww1qb9h9jo1_400.gif

toasty

2012-11-16, 03:02 PM

Solution to elo issue solved: Play Ad Carry. Apparently its easy to play AD carry when everyone else is 300 elo lower than you. :smalltongue:

Its actually a funny thing about elo: everyone above me is objectively "good" and just flat out better than me, in my experience. But everyone below me is utter trash. I'm not a very competent AD player, but I've played AD twice now and both time I had a full build by 35 minutes (like 4-5 top tier items) and the enemy AD had... IE. One game I went 18/0 as graves. (Kog'maw game was harder because enemy actually camped my lane and it was basically a tri-lane for like 10 minutes which was totally retarded... just let me farm lol). The Graves game was especially hilarious since I was against Taric/Cait as Graves/Ali and I would just walk up to them and kill them. They were never able to effetively zone me ever.

Oh and yesterday I play Rengar/Annie bot lane (annie was level 9) and got to 1 shot a Sona 2-3 times. Then we lost cuz we had no AD. :smallsigh:

NineThePuma

2012-11-16, 03:37 PM

Teemo Build idea for Season 3:

Sorc Shoes/Malady/Liandry's Torment/Death Cap/Nashor's Tooth/Hurricane... That's something like...
15 Mag Pen/25 AP, 45 AS/70 AP, 200 HP, 15 mag pen/120 AP/50 AS, 65 AP, 10 Mana Regen, 20% CDR/70 AS.
30 Mag Pen/280 AP/165% AS/200 HP, just from raw stats before calculating in passives and stuff.

It is, unfortunately, something of a glass cannon, but your primary thing is shrooming the map, blinding targets of priority, and applying poison and MR shred all over the place for your main AP.

Reynard

2012-11-16, 04:23 PM

Shurelias, Ghostblade, New QSS upgrade, 2x Static Shiv, Mobility boots (+the 15MS upgrade) and Ghost+Garen's Q. Also MS Quints and masteries.

1095 Movement speed

Briefly

ex cathedra

2012-11-16, 04:47 PM

Fellow Summoners! I come to this thread desiring input into my next champion purchase. I have accumulated a large IP store and have narrowed down my potential decisions into the following champions:

Darius
Fiora
Irelia
Corki
Lux

That's a list of four excellent champions (and Fiora. Whatever you do, seriously, don't get Fiora. She has a lot of problems to overcome and once you get past them the pay-off isn't much better than that of Jax, for most players). Darius and Irelia are both excellent top laners and Darius jungles solidly. He stands to get a lot out of the upcoming item rework. As will Lux, for that matter. Corki is a surprisingly unique carry but recent changes make me less willing to recommend him.

Finally, i have four Irelia skins so pick her.

Forrestfire

2012-11-16, 04:50 PM

I'm gonna throw my vote in for lux, because lasering someone is the best thing ever.

toasty

2012-11-16, 05:08 PM

Wickd thinks Irelia is the best top lane ever, so there is that going for Irelia. No other top lane hero has been made as popular through the opinions of one player except maybe Chogath, and even that hero has basically waned because HSGG showed everyone Chogath jungle.

Darius is new, but incredibly easy to play and punishes bad play a lot.

Fiora is weird. I have not seen her do well in Summoner's Rift, but she probably would succeed in Dominion and Twisted Treeline, at least, succeed more. In general, my opinion towards melee carries is why play them when you can become an immortal tank beast, but that's my opinion (its also why I refused to learn Riven).

Corki is a standard AD Carry. If you want more AD Carries, pick him, because he's a bread and butter AD right now, though Kog, Vayne and Cait are all becoming FOTM again.

Lux is probably the hardest hero on your list. Froggen has now shown the world his lux several times and its... beautiful. Froggen has, on multiple occasions, thrown an entire spell combo across a wall blind for a kill. That's what most luxes (funny moment, this should be Lucis... but that makes no sense hehe) should do. Most end up just... failing in lane and being a bad version of morgana. BUT if you can stand to try and master lux, she is amazing. She has Zone Control, a Snare, and an very strong AoE Ult with a lot of utility.

Godskook

2012-11-16, 05:25 PM

Darius
Fiora
Irelia
Corki
Lux

Darius is lulzy, but has easy counterplay(pick ranged champ with good escape, gg). Fiora is lane-Yi, but without escapes, so meh. Irelia is Irelia, so quite awesome. Corki is going to get some buffs out of the next patch, so worth watching. And Lux is....meh. She was nerfed to hard, imho, to be playable anymore(I'm referring to her ult rename, here).

Overall, I say Irelia.

PersonMan

2012-11-16, 06:16 PM

Shurelias, Ghostblade, New QSS upgrade, 2x Static Shiv, Mobility boots (+the 15MS upgrade) and Ghost+Garen's Q. Also MS Quints and masteries.

1095 Movement speed

Briefly

Do it with Hecarim. Tons of MS..which results in one mega-hit. Also fast movement.

Reynard

2012-11-16, 06:24 PM

Do it with Hecarim. Tons of MS..which results in one mega-hit. Also fast movement.

We were trying to, but the bots won before we could get fully set up.

ChaosOS

2012-11-16, 07:21 PM

So, New Frozen Fist is really strong on the party pony. Thoughts on general use?

Stats:

40 AP
500 mana
60 armor
15% CDR

Unique Passive - Spellblade: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals bonus physical damage equal to 125% of your base attack damage to surrounding enemies and creates a field for 3 seconds that slows enemies inside by 35% (2 second cooldown).

Mtg_player_zach

2012-11-16, 07:23 PM

I vote against Fiora.

TheShrike

2012-11-16, 07:27 PM

TechnOkami

2012-11-16, 08:10 PM

Well, after going 27ish/0/1 as Jax in a bot game, I'm pretty confident that I should try him in a real game.

I just have several questions.

A.) How is he currently?

B.) Can he Jungle?

C.) I usually build Mercs, Gunblade, Triforce, and Maw on him. What are other good items on him?

Forrestfire

2012-11-16, 08:13 PM

A) He's very strong. One of those champs that can kill anyone lategame, and is pretty strong in lane as well. Also, one of the few "counters" to yorick.

B) Yes, he can. I'm not a fan of it, but I've had great success in normals with jungling him.

C) I'm not entirely sure, but at that point it's probably Guardian Angel and either a tank item or a damage item.

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-16, 08:18 PM

Eldariel

2012-11-16, 08:46 PM

Hexdrinker always seems so ... I dunno, I like it but I don't want to buy it. I'm also going through a moment where I realize FoN+Mallet is actually kinda awesome vs. AP. Too bad FoN is gonna go bye-bye. :smallsigh:

For what it's worth, you generally have better options than FoN.

Its funny because it means ADs can't do much to you until they get either crazy crit and/or Last Whisper.

Mastery CDR may be wasted, so just go Offensive true or 9/12/9 or whatever it is. A favorite trick of mine is to get all the move speed masteries, movespeed quints, and then just destroy people.

Also: Thoughts on starting W. How easy is it to all-in someone if you do it? I've recently realized how strong aggressive all-ins are top lane in certain matchups.

I don't like Offensive unless I'm getting CDR there; I greatly prefer high Defense especially since Juggernaut synergises well with his kit. I usually just run 8/21/1 or 0/21/9 or 8/15/7 or 7/15/8 since you really, really want all the move speed in the world on him. Of course, I don't always build a Shurelya's.

C.) I usually build Mercs, Gunblade, Triforce, and Maw on him. What are other good items on him?

Triforce > Tanky is perfectly viable on him. Maybe with a Cutlass/Vamp in the process.

TechnOkami

2012-11-16, 08:57 PM

Well, I should specify what exactly my build order is.

start boots pots, go into 2 doran's blades, a cutlass, work into & finish a triforce, typically finish the gunblade (should I?), & then... well, I've hardly gotten that far, so, to be honest I'm not sure. I'd think Maw and GA might be good on him. Not sure what to fill in for that 5th item.

Math_Mage

2012-11-16, 09:13 PM

As far as Jax items: I personally favor Triforce->GA->Mallet. Triforce for damage, GA for survivability and just plain GA-dom, and Mallet for extra survival + chasing. After that, it's mostly damage items(BT->LW) if I'm stomping or defensive items(Randuins/FH->FoN) if I need to be tankier.

Trinity+Mallet is kinda strange. I'd just go for Randuin's straight up except against heavy magic damage (QSS/BVeil/FoN situational) or true damage (Warmog's). Remember, Randuin's also give you extra chasing with its passive and active slows. FH against heavy AD.

That is, my build order would be:
-Boots-Pots
--Optional Doran's Blades (cheap damage in tough lane)
-Phage
--Optional Vamp Scepter (cheap sustain in tough or even lane)
-Trinity
--Optional Cutlass (if ahead)
-GA
And then the above considerations for defensive items.

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-16, 09:26 PM

Trinity+Mallet is kinda strange.

I want AD and HP. Unfortunately it's one of the few items that does both.

Reynard

2012-11-16, 09:49 PM

Related to Jax Talk: Gunblade spellvamp stacks again. But really though, with the new wave of items, building Jax just got a lot more complicated, and a case of 'which of all these really good items would be best for me'

Well, except: Scimitar > Malmordius is always true lategame.

Also, in a PBE game where a bunch of us were trying things out, we came up with the idea of porting Van Damme's Pillager to SR by upping the flat ArPen on all the items that have it by a little bit, but making it in line with the named item passives, like Legion, Insight and That-One-That-Gives-MPen.

So you can build one Flat ArPen item, and you choose if you want Black Cleaver, Van Damme's, or Ghostblade. Thoughts?

ex cathedra

2012-11-16, 09:51 PM

Hexdrinker is strong, but Maw is a terribly inefficient upgrade. Get Hexdrinker if you're seriously threatened by a specific AP, otherwise get Aegis or GA.

Eldariel

2012-11-16, 09:54 PM

Related to Jax Talk: Gunblade spellvamp stacks again. But really though, with the new wave of items, building Jax just got a lot more complicated, and a case of 'which of all these really good items would be best for me'

Stacking Gunblades on either Jax or Akali was never anything but a niché pubstomp build much like Revolver-stacking Vlad anyways. Making Gunblade Spellvamp Unique was one of the most unnecessary changes in the game's history. Against reasonable opponents the fact that your effective HP is all based on lifestealing means you just get bursted down with maybe a single CC effect.

Reynard

2012-11-16, 10:00 PM

Stacking Gunblades on either Jax or Akali was never anything but a niché pubstomp build much like Revolver-stacking Vlad anyways. Making Gunblade Spellvamp Unique was one of the most unnecessary changes in the game's history. Against reasonable opponents the fact that your effective HP is all based on lifestealing means you just get bursted down with maybe a single CC effect.

That was mostly in jest, but okay. The actually serious part of my post is still relevant. People are going to want revisit all their builds and think about what's best for them.

I've already got a pretty strong Garen build going, though the lose of HoG is a big one.

Mtg_player_zach

2012-11-17, 12:08 AM

So this happened.

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Mtg_Player_Zach_GitP/Treeline.jpg

I just dominated the entire game. Soloed Vilemaw at one point. Died to Vilemaw at another point when I started it at 1/3 hp after we aced them, we did get it though.

I swear it is SO easy to win on treeline.

ex cathedra

2012-11-17, 12:18 AM

I swear it is SO easy to win on treeline.

you're 21/9. you're practically still in normal elo placement matches, so it's to be expected.

Godskook

2012-11-17, 12:31 AM

I really hope the gunblade active's CD reduction goes live. Akali is *SO* going to love that. If she does well in a rolling teamfight, she could actually get off two gunblade shots per fight.

Mtg_player_zach

2012-11-17, 12:51 AM

you're 21/9. you're practically still in normal elo placement matches, so it's to be expected.

They aren't improving.

PersonMan

2012-11-17, 03:46 AM

I've already got a pretty strong Garen build going, though the lose of HoG is a big one.

What is it? After a custom game in which I tried an unusual Garen build (Warmog's/Warmog's/Warmog's/Warmog's/Warmog's/FoN) I've been considering going for more tanky builds than my normal AD + resists one.

Reynard

2012-11-17, 06:00 AM

What is it? After a custom game in which I tried an unusual Garen build (Warmog's/Warmog's/Warmog's/Warmog's/Warmog's/FoN) I've been considering going for more tanky builds than my normal AD + resists one.

Bots of choice/Runic Bulwark/Black Cleaver/Frozen Mallet, then you have a choice to make between Mercurial Scimitar/Atma's Impaler/Randiuns Omen/GA

Best part is that nearly all these items have a lesser stage that you can build first to get a rounded build quickly, then upgrade to taste. Aegis/Brtualizer/Phage/QSS/Warden's Mail is still a lot of tankyness and a fair amount of damage.

Fully built, though, you have 240-ish in all resists, 4.2K health, 250 AD, and Arpen/ArShred

Eldariel

2012-11-17, 10:29 AM

I'm really liking the new Blackfire Torch. Champs like Karma, Janna, Zilean, champs on whom I got DFG for CDR before I can now run BFT instead. And it just so synergizes well with Sorcs for generating surprisingly solid damage.

Funny note, Brand's passive triggers Blackfire Torch so when you hit somebody with Brand's anything while having BFT they burn extra long (last tick of passive triggers full BFT trigger).

9mm

2012-11-17, 11:43 AM

... urgh so many jungle changes to process.

Though the thought of lee being bad in the jungle makes me laugh.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-17, 01:08 PM

Reynard

2012-11-17, 01:20 PM

Bruisers are megapopular in TT. But in my experience, a solid tank can neuter them pretty hard.

I've only lost one Shen game so far, and just carried a game out as Nautilus by making their Garen irrelevant with 300+ armor.

In my experience, Garen is largely irrelevant to most of the TT regulars, unless he builds damage and they don't build armour, but then he's irrelevant because he gets murdered.

Now, if you can find a way to counteract Olaf, besides 'Kill his team then beat him down', I'd like to hear it. If only so I know what to avoid when playing him.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-17, 01:23 PM

In my experience, Garen is largely irrelevant to most of the TT regulars, unless he builds damage and they don't build armour, but then he's irrelevant because he gets murdered.

Now, if you can find a way to counteract Olaf, besides 'Kill his team then beat him down', I'd like to hear it. If only so I know what to avoid when playing him.

Jarvan. Haven't lost as him, either.

Eldariel

2012-11-17, 01:28 PM

Anivia is the ultimate Olaf-counter. Jarvan's indeed another good one, especially in Carry comps.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-17, 01:39 PM

Played as Jarvan the other night, brutalized the enemy Jax solo top, went bottom and ganked for a kill on Olaf about two minutes into laning.

Spent the rest of the game abusing Jax and making Olaf sit in Time-Out every time he ulted. My Katarina and Diana were quick to notice the theme and make use of it.

Qwertystop

2012-11-17, 01:57 PM

Adumbration

2012-11-17, 02:40 PM

Bought Zed today, been playing him a lot. Thoughts so far:
- kills squishies well (though Zhonya's tends to counter him)
- Max E and then W, Q is pretty superfluous early (mostly an energy drain, maybe good for getting cs if you're getting zoned)
- Mediocre jungler. Fast cleartime, no sustain.
- W+E is a good harass mechanism
- Last hitting is extremely easy with the passive and the animation is very responsive
- Weak-ish early laning, need to be careful. W is a good escape though

PersonMan

2012-11-17, 03:37 PM

In my experience, Garen is largely irrelevant to most of the TT regulars, unless he builds damage and they don't build armour, but then he's irrelevant because he gets murdered.

In my experience, going Tankren results in you being hilariously hard to kill but also utterly useless.

In my experience, AD Garen works as well on TT as on SR...no, better, even. Which means winning. Armor? Pillager/Brutalizer/Black Cleaver say no. Damage? Lifesteal/spellvamp/W active and passive say no.

I mean, I'm sure there are people who /should/ own AD Garen, but the good old 'be better at AD Garen than they are against him' works for me quite well.

EDIT: Basically, Tankren plays like AD Garen but with two differences:

-You do no damage.
-You generally die once your team is dead and you get focused. (This is often the case as AD Garen, in my games, but he's squishier than Tank, so he's more likely to die to focus fire before mop-up.)

toasty

2012-11-17, 04:36 PM

Anivia is the ultimate Olaf-counter. Jarvan's indeed another good one, especially in Carry comps.

I once played with Zach late at night when he was "tired." The enemy picked Vlad and he insta locked J4 and screamed into his mic about how he was gonna kill vlad. Vlad can't pool out of J4 ult. :smallbiggrin:

I honestly don't know why people don't play j4 more. Hopefully the new jungle will make him more popular. Honestly, Wriggles/Aegis J4 is one of the best bruisers from the jungle. IMO he's better than Nocturne, and he does AD damage and he's pretty much a beast initiating tank. Like, the fact that he is an AD initiating tank is a big deal, because other initiating tanks, like Amumu and Malphite are magic damage. Though I suppose Triforce Malphite IS VIABLE, just not something I would suggest you play.

In other news: I played the best League game ever.

Our team: Karthus, Nocturne, Cait/Nunu, Irelia (me)
Their team: Kass, Moakai, Vayne/Janna, Darius

I tell the team to run a 2v1 because I'm 100% sure I can 2v1 with Irelia (only because Wickd did it, tbh :smalltongue:) and I take 2v1 runes/masteries.

We run a 2v1. Darius gets FB. Kass kills karthus with ganks. We leave laning certainly behind. Karthus keeps dying, Cait is overly aggressive, and our nocturne has BT and is building Trinity force. :smallfrown: Throughout this entire period I am farming. I do nothing but farm, in fact, and only TP to fights.

Then we have a fight near baron. I don't even remember what happened this fight, except we won with 3 alive (nunu/karthus died) and took baron. But we weren't able to do anything with it because cait, karthus, and nunu keep going alone and dying. I type in chat "don't go alone" like 5 times and I actually think it kinda worked. Nunu still has the problem of solo warding by himself (I tell him to ask for help, he kinda gets more cautious, but still solo wards). Karthus, btw, is 0/6 at this point, though he is farming well. The enemy Kass/Vayne are fed as hell. Darius is under control because of the 2v1 and I do realize Nocturne, while he has a retarded build, IS killing the enemy carries. He does apparently know how to play Nocturne. So basically, we have proven we can win teamfights, but are still severely behind.

The thing is, their damage is focused on 2 heroes: Kass and Vayne. Mobile carries, but still squishy. Darius/Moakai aren't peeling, and instead are initiating, so Janna alone is there to peel. I stand way back and wait for Vayne/Kass to come into Q range and/or stand on top of cait and kill Moakai/Darius when they come. Karthus plays perfectly, in all honesty. He did exactly what Karthus with 0 kills should do: die instantly and then win the teamfight.

Three teamfights later, and one stolen penta (Cait got a quadra and I didn't realize until after I killed the last guy while Cait was DPSing him LOL) we have 3 GAs and their middle inhib is up with no tower. Only my GA procs. We win.

I have no clue how we won. Apparently though, I can play Irelia now. Its this strange sensation. I still feel like my Irelia is very weak, because Irelia has a very weak early game, and I HATE early game weak champions (its why I am unable to play Singed).

I also admit that game would have been impossible to win if I had 1v1ed Darius and/or their bot lane had been a good 2v1. If they had run Taric/Graves or Leona+Corki I would have died. Janna Vayne has no killing power and I started cloth+5. I don't think I had to TP to tower once, just used it for splitting.

edit: My elo sucks btw. I'm like 1200 something. 200 elo below where I was a week ago. This reset **** sucks. I think its because, as someone told me a while ago, I don't play a carry style. I prefer to just farm. I've carried two games as Vlad/Ryze by going middle, letting my enemy roam for free, and then pushing their lane and taking wraith camps. My team complained until we started to teamfight, where I KILLED EVERYONE.

In other news: Playing at low elo has made me notice some things.

A) the importance of learning how to play passive. NO ONE DOES THIS. If you are losing your lane, play passive. Its very hard to do, becuase you feel bad doing it, but you must. Playing passive is the key to winning a losing lane. Its all about good decision making.

B) AD carries are very, very, easy to play against bad players. A Good AD Carry stands in the back. This would explain why our cait from the previous game was constantly in range of Moakai/Darius CC. it was really painful to watch Nunu/Cait stand so ****ing close to the enemy team for no reason at all. Its very frustrating for me to constantly say "Cait stand behind me Ill protect you" only to have to dive into the enemy team to save the carry.

C) I'm beginning to anaylze my own play and realize how good I am, which also means how good players better than me are. Its really interesting that Riot discusses removing "burden of knowledge" all the time, yet I think League is basically impossible to play effectively without specific mechanics memorized. I was wondering to myself when I learned how to freeze lanes. Because, to be completely honest, I don't even remember anyone telling me or anything, I just realized you could freeze lane. I learned how to use bushes for aggro and/or skirmishing top lane (Pro tip: Top Lane is won by ganks, freezing lane, and bush control, unless you are darius and can just kill stuff)

Also: I'm waiting for the 2v1 meta to hit solo queue. Like, its really easy. I think the major issue with top lane assassin heroes is you can 2v1 them and beat them. The same issue exists middle lane. I never played DotA with jungling, so I'd like to know if lane swaps, trilanes, and stuff like that, how common was it in pug DOTA games?

edit: Holy Hell this was a big post.

ChaosOS

2012-11-17, 05:44 PM

Thing about J4 is I'm spoiled on old J4 when he was super b0rken with HoG stacking and the full 9 yards. He's good now still, but it's hard to play someone who used to be able to just wreck whole teams and now you have to remember to think carefully about acting. Although, my recent success with him was doing wraiths->red->gank jayce for our xin, get first blood, farm jungle some and give first blue to our mid viktor, gank mid right before red expires, farm, red comes up, gank top again for another kill, farm, right before red expires gank top again for another kill, then teamfights roll around and xin got a penta. It's amazing how good Jarvan's ganks are though. Like, just stupid you can't get away from them no matter what you do good.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-17, 06:08 PM

Anyone else have any first impressions on Zed? He looks nifty, but I've not been impressed by him in any of the games I've seen him in yet.

ex cathedra

2012-11-17, 06:14 PM

Speaking of J4, did anyone watch the SGS vs TPA series at GPL Playoffs?

Specifically game 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LkWYBD5vW0), the only game that SGS took off of TPA. As it happens, they won with mid Karma, but that's not why i'm bringing it up.

Did anyone here know that you could do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_LkWYBD5vW0#t=1924s) with J4's combo?

ChaosOS

2012-11-17, 06:15 PM

He's not that good. Runs out of energy super fast if he wants to do any damage at all, double hits help but then you can't gap close at all if your ult isn't up. Basically, ults can get you kills, but other than that he's weak.

toasty

2012-11-17, 06:24 PM

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-17, 06:26 PM

When j4 was super broken I was 2-11 with him in ranked. :smallbiggrin:

edit: 2-14 actually.

Talking about Zed.

toasty

2012-11-17, 06:28 PM

Talking about Zed.

Meant to quote his stuff on J4. Mb

Math_Mage

2012-11-17, 07:08 PM

A) the importance of learning how to play passive. NO ONE DOES THIS. If you are losing your lane, play passive. Its very hard to do, becuase you feel bad doing it, but you must. Playing passive is the key to winning a losing lane. Its all about good decision making.

Heck, I'm STILL learning how to do this.

B) AD carries are very, very, easy to play against bad players. A Good AD Carry stands in the back. This would explain why our cait from the previous game was constantly in range of Moakai/Darius CC. it was really painful to watch Nunu/Cait stand so ****ing close to the enemy team for no reason at all. Its very frustrating for me to constantly say "Cait stand behind me Ill protect you" only to have to dive into the enemy team to save the carry.

AD carries may be easy to play against bad players, but it only takes one even worse teammate to create a fed opponent who can jump on your face.

Related: When is Zed viable? When he can go mid and have 10 kills in 15 minutes. I was Kog. That didn't end well.

C) I'm beginning to anaylze my own play and realize how good I am, which also means how good players better than me are. Its really interesting that Riot discusses removing "burden of knowledge" all the time, yet I think League is basically impossible to play effectively without specific mechanics memorized. I was wondering to myself when I learned how to freeze lanes. Because, to be completely honest, I don't even remember anyone telling me or anything, I just realized you could freeze lane. I learned how to use bushes for aggro and/or skirmishing top lane (Pro tip: Top Lane is won by ganks, freezing lane, and bush control, unless you are darius and can just kill stuff)

I'll be honest, I cheated on this part. I read stuff about creep control and watched Shurelia's zone tutorial well before I hit level 30. :smalltongue:

Also: I'm waiting for the 2v1 meta to hit solo queue. Like, its really easy. I think the major issue with top lane assassin heroes is you can 2v1 them and beat them. The same issue exists middle lane. I never played DotA with jungling, so I'd like to know if lane swaps, trilanes, and stuff like that, how common was it in pug DOTA games?

edit: Holy Hell this was a big post.

Main issue with 1v2 mirror is you have to count on your top to volunteer to get beat up slightly less than you beat up the other guy. This will not always happen.

toasty

2012-11-17, 08:50 PM

Heck, I'm STILL learning how to do this.

I am too. I still don't know so much about league, it amazes me how technical this game is, for a ****ing video game, it has the depth of any real sports game (this is of course why it IS an Esport).

But I know how to avoid going into lane 3 times and instantly dying each item to Darius all-ins. I know how to give up CS because I can't take the harass. I know how to ward and when to ward and where to ward and when buffs spawn. SO MANY 1400s DON'T KNOW THIS WTF.

AD carries may be easy to play against bad players, but it only takes one even worse teammate to create a fed opponent who can jump on your face.

That's why you turn the enemy heroes into farm. Look at the score on my recent Graves Game. I'm pretty sure everyone here can attest to how ****ty of a graves player I am.

I'll be honest, I cheated on this part. I read stuff about creep control and watched Shurelia's zone tutorial well before I hit level 30. :smalltongue:

I watched that video. It didn't help me at all. Honestly I think it was efdf who showed me the importance of creep control. He sometimes offers to troll me in 1v1s and beat me with Yi or something dumb. Maybe it was also just hours and hours of watching streams and other players. I know I'm behind on the curve, but it is interesting to realize what high elo players did 2 months ago is often common place in Low-elo games.

Main issue with 1v2 mirror is you have to count on your top to volunteer to get beat up slightly less than you beat up the other guy. This will not always happen.

Yes. This is true. The thing is that ME personally, as someone who mains top lane, likes 2v1s. This is because I think I know how to play passive and deny myself CS so I don't die. This is because if I call for a 2v1 in a solo queue game there is a 90% chance the enemy will not be prepared for this. The difference between starting with AD runes and Boots 3 on Irelia and starting with HP/regen runes and cloth 5 on Irelia is huge. If I call for a 2v1 at this point in low elo metagame, no one will expect it. The beauty of this is everyone KNOWS what to do in a 2v1. I say "push your tower and swap" and my support instantly says "kor meta. okay." Sure, we did a pretty ****ty job of using this strat, but I think it worked. At the very least, I ended up ahead of farm of Darius and ultimately we negated Darius' early game strength because I never actually laned against him (I do this thing where once I take tower I just constantly shove and roam, it might not be the most XP/gold efficient thing, but I feel it ads a lot of pressure to the map, and its especially powerful if you run TP like I do).

I think the thing about 2v1s is few people know why they are good and don't want to diverge from the meta to much because its too cumbersome to communicate and any time you do something different, there is an extremely high chance of it not working out very well because of solo queueTM. In general, I'd say running a 2v1 REQUIRES communication outside of the norm. People are scared of that.

Of course, right now I'm 1200 elo instead of 1400. I was watching WingsofDeathx a few days ago and he mentioned how winning games at his reset elo is "like herding sheep," or something like that. I feel the same way. Every game I have to tell people EXACTLY what to do because I see mistakes everywhere. I haven't felt I've played with so many stupid people in a long time. The quality of the games going right before Season 3 was amazing: Everyone tryharded and every game was a 20 minute surrender. Everyone was grinding out games and I learned A LOT because of how serious everyone played (namely I learned how an intelligent jungler will win a bad top lane matchup with careful ganks: ZACH I'M LOOKING AT YOU BITCH WHY DON'T YOU GANK MY LANE).

Season 3 is ****. Instead of tryhards I have gotten several players who at one point I was convinced of were feeding. I've had people that are rude and angry. I've dodged like 4 games just because I didn't like how things turned out in champion select (there was this one guy who was just a total jerk, so I told him he was an I dodged as other players begged me to stay).

I mean, maybe its the elo. 1200 is where everyone thinks they are in elo hell. 1400 is where people know they are bad. 1600 is where the everyone thinks their good. Or something like that. :smalltongue:

Eldariel

2012-11-17, 09:52 PM

Lane swaps work really well in solo queue in general. We had a game where our top was Shen, enemy countered with Darius. Shen complained about the lane so we put the Shen in bottom and Leona/Corki top (they had Graves/Janna).

Shen died once, sure, but Darius was completely denied and Shen is kinda ****ton better than Darius when both are far behind on farm, and we got top tower first. Best part was that our team was entirely hopeless; people insisting on wandering around and getting caught, terrible teamplay and synergization and so on, but the early advantage and me getting to play Anivia got us through.

Psyborg

2012-11-17, 11:34 PM

Had a game not long ago where I was jungling (I think Shyvana? Maybe Rengar. I forget.) Anyhow, our last-pick Shen demanded bot. So I talked our Vayne and Taric into just going top and 2v1ing. Their bot lane was a Caitlin, so Vayne agreed rather enthusiastically (fortunately, as Taric was REALLY unfamiliar and uncomfortable with the idea, but Vayne helped me talk him into it).

Vayne, of course, proceeded to free-farm like mad, and got a couple kills out of the deal when I counterganked their Xin at top.

Shen, of course, whined and moaned like crazy at having to solo lane after all, but actually played passive, farmed at tower, and (it turned out) was incredibly on-the-ball with his ultimate. I made sure to gank bot whenever I could to relieve pressure, and he generally handled it well and worked well with the team later on, too, especially for someone who was such a whiny bitch about the situation in the first place :smallconfused: From talking to him in the postgame chat, it turns out he just hated the zero-margin-of-error snowballiness of 1v1 top and didn't want to get stuck there. (Why he picked shen then I have no idea, but w/e.)

And Taric was happy and relieved and didn't hate me for pressuring him into the deal :D

It was rather a satisfying game.

NineThePuma

2012-11-17, 11:39 PM

Ugh.

I'm currently trying to reconnect to a game, and it is spitting out "your fire wall is stopping us from connecting!" messages at me.

I DON'T HAVE A FIRE WALL. I PLAYED AN HOUR OR TWO AGO. WHAT THE CRAP, LEAGUE, STOP BEING A DOUCHE.

Eurus

2012-11-18, 01:14 AM

Eldariel

2012-11-18, 01:31 AM

Man. I must just be bad at League. I can't seem to handle arranged 3s, lately. Standard "throw three moderately powerful champs together" teams just steamroll us about half the time -- just can't deal with the beef and gap-closing ability that most of them have. We've been trying to do CC+ADC, but maybe our positioning just isn't good enough?

Might not be you, might be your teammates too. Or just your teamplay. Adumbration and I both perform quite well alone but for some reason whenever we play together we can't get anything right; we have almost polar opposite expectation on what we're planning to do in any given situation. And this in spite of us playing quite a bit together.

But yeah, positioning and laning are obviously big deals for ADC/CC teams. You have to keep parity or keep the gap small through the early game so enemy doesn't snowball, and then you autowin later on. At what point is the enemy gaining the advantages? The problems are probably there.

Nadevoc

2012-11-18, 01:51 AM

All support team too good:

http://i49.tinypic.com/ili1cl.jpg

Admittedly their team had a bit of trolliness (Udyr/Mao bot lane and jungle Kennen).

Best part of the game is when we, the five supports, were milling around baron and the question came out, "Does anyone have a ward?" The answer, of course, was 'no'.

Forrestfire

2012-11-18, 02:15 AM

Course, the only reason we won was because you guys were good enough to carry my suck in mid lane.

Also, sunlight + starcall = huge burst.

McDouggal

2012-11-18, 02:28 AM

NineThePuma

2012-11-18, 02:40 AM

Best part of the game is when we, the five supports, were milling around baron and the question came out, "Does anyone have a ward?" The answer, of course, was 'no'.

I make it a point, mid-late game, to ALWAYS buy at least two wards on every B. Regardless of role.

Unless I'm playing an ADC, in which case, I make a point to, every 180 seconds, turn to my healbitch and go "Hey, you should have wards, why do you have no wards?"

Temotei

2012-11-18, 02:51 AM

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

Supports have great early games and they scale with no items. Plus, they have a ton of variety and auras and the like which makes your entire team awesome.

Eldariel

2012-11-18, 02:54 AM

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

All-support is probably the strongest out of all the "all-X" comps. All AP is close behind I guess, and then you have like All Bruiser and All AD competing for the Most Terrible spot (both perfectly workable, mind).

PersonMan

2012-11-18, 04:02 AM

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

The rationale I use is this:

One support can heal and help a carry. Two supports can heal and help two carries.

Five supports heal and help everyone simultaneously. They cannot lose!

Or something. My only experience with penta-support was a game I played (premade 3 + premade 2 of randoms) where we won in 20 minutes...by destroying their Nexus. Soraka + other healing champs = unstoppable push.

toasty

2012-11-18, 04:10 AM

All-support is probably the strongest out of all the "all-X" comps. All AP is close behind I guess, and then you have like All Bruiser and All AD competing for the Most Terrible spot (both perfectly workable, mind).

All Bruiser works if you cheat a little.

For instance, Urgot, Ali, Galio, Irelia, Leona is actually a really strong team, and would be theoretically viable if Urgot hadn't been nerfed so hard.

Forrestfire

2012-11-18, 04:10 AM

I think in this case it was more of

"Hey, we should play a game with all supports"
"...why?"
"Because!"
"Ok"

Eldariel

2012-11-18, 04:11 AM

Winterwind

2012-11-18, 04:23 AM

B) AD carries are very, very, easy to play against bad players. A Good AD Carry stands in the back. This would explain why our cait from the previous game was constantly in range of Moakai/Darius CC. it was really painful to watch Nunu/Cait stand so ****ing close to the enemy team for no reason at all. Its very frustrating for me to constantly say "Cait stand behind me Ill protect you" only to have to dive into the enemy team to save the carry. I think the reason - well, one of the main reasons, anyhow - why bad AD carries keep getting too close to the fight is that they think they have to focus the enemy squishies. Everybody always says, "All focus Annie!" or "All focus Ashe!" or such; until you get fairly high up, nobody is aware that "All" actually means "All except the AD carry" in this context. So, I think you might have more success in making them stand back if you explained that to them; sadly, they probably won't accept it without the full logic behind why the AD carry shouldn't be focusing the squishies (unless they are way out of position), and there's hardly enough time to type all of that out during a game.

toasty

2012-11-18, 04:27 AM

I think the reason - well, one of the main reasons, anyhow - why bad AD carries keep getting too close to the fight is that they think they have to focus the enemy squishies. Everybody always says, "All focus Annie!" or "All focus Ashe!" or such; until you get fairly high up, nobody is aware that "All" actually means "All except the AD carry" in this context. So, I think you might have more success in making them stand back if you explained that to them; sadly, they probably won't accept it without the full logic behind why the AD carry shouldn't be focusing the squishies (unless they are way out of position), and there's hardly enough time to type all of that out during a game.

I think its more they have no idea how to trade in lane.

Godskook

2012-11-18, 04:47 AM

Course, the only reason we won was because you guys were good enough to carry my suck in mid lane.

For reference:

1.You really can't put off AP as long as you did, buying Catalyst+Tear. Combined with the lack of MR, you had a rough time being threatening to Cass.

2.Athene's is really strong right now, especially with Soraka's shred from starcall. CDR helps a lot too, since its the stat Riot expects her to scale with.

toasty

2012-11-18, 04:57 AM

For reference:

1.You really can't put off AP as long as you did, buying Catalyst+Tear. Combined with the lack of MR, you had a rough time being threatening to Cass.

2.Athene's is really strong right now, especially with Soraka's shred from starcall. CDR helps a lot too, since its the stat Riot expects her to scale with.

Alternatively you can go the route of Sorc/Haunting Guise/Abyssal for uber shred.

Godskook

2012-11-18, 05:08 AM

Alternatively you can go the route of Sorc/Haunting Guise/Abyssal for uber shred.

If he had been doing better, sure. But Haunting Guise is rough on a build when you're behind in gold, while Abyssal's range made it useless in the context of that game, at least during the laning phase.

sonofzeal

2012-11-18, 06:01 AM

All Bruiser works if you cheat a little.

For instance, Urgot, Ali, Galio, Irelia, Leona is actually a really strong team, and would be theoretically viable if Urgot hadn't been nerfed so hard.
Urgot will be fine as of Season 3. I think he's a lot better than most people expect - harasses well, is tanky while still building mostly damage, and that ult opens up a lot of really brutal plays. There's very few ults where you can look at someone at full health running away from you and say "go directly to dead, do not pass Go, do not collect $200." Especially if your team's behind you. :smallamused:

I mean, seriously, look at it. According to the wiki, nothing blocks the position reversal component. And at 850 range at max rank, it's pretty darn easy to get off, especially since it's targetted instead of skillshot; if Urgot wants you out of position, Urgot GETS you out of position. Not just that, but the 40% slow for three seconds practically ensures that you stay out of position, especially since Urgot himself is likely blocking your most likely avenue of escape. Finally... +120 armor AND magic resist, for five seconds? On a guy whose passive reduces people's damage substantially, and who has a seven-second shield? Whooooooof.

It's versatile too. You can pull someone way inside your turret and then hammer them all the way out (while they're 40% slowed under a turret already, remember). You can switch with a prospective ganker to completely ruin any chances of picking up a kill. And it's a great initiation tool in teamfights because the massive slow on one side and the massive durability boost on the other pretty much ensures that the exchange is favorable.

That's a massive amount of utility that isn't going to depend on gold balance. He's not an ADC, and doesn't scale as well as one into end-game, but his E and Q both have great ranges and can wear people down, and the armor burn on E and the damage debuff on Q/AA help the whole team.

I don't understand why people think Urgot is unviable, at a time when tanky DPS are considered king. He's got spammable damage, he's durable, and he brings a lot of utility to the team. I realize he's got his flaws (fairly slow, no mobility aside from ult, damage doesn't scale well past lvl 9 unless he's snowballing hard, tankiness comes from situational sources so he can be burst down sometimes, etc). But I do think he's reasonable.

(edit) The reason I say Season 3 is not specifically because of the new items, but because of the pricing changes. Urgot likes AD and doesn't care about AS, so making AD 10% cheaper and AS 20% more expensive hurts most AD characters overall but actually helps him. And more Brutalizer options don't hurt either, as that's an absolutely fantastic item on him.

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-18, 06:37 AM

I don't understand why people think Urgot is unviable, at a time when tanky DPS are considered king.

He doesn't have a place. He's generally run to counter a super-squishy hard carry like Vayne/Kog'Maw, but doing that puts your team out of an ADC unless you run Supportgot.

If you send him top, then the many high-mobility high-DPS top-laners will wreck him. And those top-laners without high-mobility generally out-sustain his damage. And he'll always be a gank target in solo lanes due to lacking inherent escapes.

Wanna send him mid? He can't roam as effectively as many current "shove-lane-then-gank" mids. While it's possible that he'll be a serious surprise to anyone in blind pick, a draft pick just counters him with a hard-pushing champion(Karth, Morgana, Malz) who roams elsewhere for more farm or possible kills.

Jungle? He's got a pretty bad clear time, and his pre-6 ganks are substantially worse than even Warwick's.

sonofzeal

2012-11-18, 08:09 AM

He doesn't have a place. He's generally run to counter a super-squishy hard carry like Vayne/Kog'Maw, but doing that puts your team out of an ADC unless you run Supportgot.

If you send him top, then the many high-mobility high-DPS top-laners will wreck him. And those top-laners without high-mobility generally out-sustain his damage. And he'll always be a gank target in solo lanes due to lacking inherent escapes.

Wanna send him mid? He can't roam as effectively as many current "shove-lane-then-gank" mids. While it's possible that he'll be a serious surprise to anyone in blind pick, a draft pick just counters him with a hard-pushing champion(Karth, Morgana, Malz) who roams elsewhere for more farm or possible kills.

Jungle? He's got a pretty bad clear time, and his pre-6 ganks are substantially worse than even Warwick's.
I can see that. I mean, I've seen him played as an ADC in tournament games (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14240634&postcount=327), ended in a victory, against TPA), but I agree that's a risky gambit because he doesn't scale like a proper ADC. And Supportgot is an odd duck as well. Still, I think that's his major problem, that he can't be slotted in neatly as another interchangeable ACD / 0-cs Support. I don't think that means he's too weak though, just that he's someone to choose for a particular purpose, rather than just as a go-to. That could be either strong early pressure to try and shut down hypercarries like Vayne and Kogmaw and go for an early win, or psyching the opponent out since he can function in several capacities (I'm told midgot counters Morgana and a few others, and I could see topgot's longrange ranged harass working well against some there too), and bring utility even if he falls behind. I think there's something to be said for being able to flexibly laneswap or roleswap to throw off the other team, especially with someone they're probably not used to fighting against.

As a side note... what the heck was SGS doing that game? Jarvan, Lulu, Urgot, Karma? Troll comp? Or was there a method to the madness? They definitely seemed to have gone out of their way to choose unusual champs, but it worked for them. And I can see how Jarvan's dashing powaz plus Lulu's ult lead to big things happening. That makes sense, as far as teamfights go, and it worked for them in the big push up bot. But I'm not quite sure why they went with Urgot and Karma for that particular game, and the commentary isn't in English. Analysis?

Mephit

2012-11-18, 08:13 AM

I mean, seriously, look at it. According to the wiki, nothing blocks the position reversal component.

I have some doubts about this. Both in my own play and while spectating tournaments (back when Urgot was still broken and saw a lot of play), I've never seen an instance where QSS did not stop the swap. It might've been coincidence and Urgot could've eaten some cc every time.

Urgot's not all that popular because he's not visually appealing. I think he deserves more play than he gets right now, but a lot of people don't enjoy playing with a champion like him.
He used to be really great, but he was toned down over 2-3 patches, and now he's just not that tanky and doesn't deal that much damage anymore, and the range on his ult got cut significantly.

Edit: Doublechecked the wikia, the page on QSS says the swap will not happen if you break the suppression.

As a side note... what the heck was SGS doing that game? Jarvan, Lulu, Urgot, Karma? Troll comp? Or was there a method to the madness? They definitely seemed to have gone out of their way to choose unusual champs, but it worked for them. And I can see how Jarvan's dashing powaz plus Lulu's ult lead to big things happening. That makes sense, as far as teamfights go, and it worked for them in the big push up bot. But I'm not quite sure why they went with Urgot and Karma for that particular game, and the commentary isn't in English. Analysis?

SGS has played this comp before; notice how every champion on there has a shield. It's fittingly called the Shield Comp, and AP Karma, Jarvan, and Lulu are the core. Jarvan initiates and shields are stacked on him so he can eat the front-up burst and still survive. In this case, Jax can go all-in too with shields stacked on him and his ult up for even more survivability. If they succeed in taking out the AD carry before anyone important drops, they can clean up because the team is so tanky.

sonofzeal

2012-11-18, 08:26 AM

I have some doubts about this. Both in my own play and while spectating tournaments (back when Urgot was still broken and saw a lot of play), I've never seen an instance where QSS did not stop the swap. It might've been coincidence and Urgot could've eaten some cc every time.
The wiki doesn't actually mention QSS, so maybe. But Oranges, Black Shield, Ragnarok, and Spell Shields all fail to stop the movement portion, even if they break the suppression.

(edit)

Edit: Doublechecked the wikia, the page on QSS says the swap will not happen if you break the suppression.
Ah, I was looking under ability details.

SGS has played this comp before; notice how every champion on there has a shield. It's fittingly called the Shield Comp, and AP Karma, Jarvan, and Lulu are the core. Jarvan initiates and shields are stacked on him so he can eat the front-up burst and still survive. In this case, Jax can go all-in too with shields stacked on him and his ult up for even more survivability. If they succeed in taking out the AD carry before anyone important drops, they can clean up because the team is so tanky.
Hmm... interesting! Yeah, Karma-Lulu-Jarvan seems to be a good combo. And since the core power isn't coming from the ADC, Urgot's presence there as a way to at least partially shut down the other team's ADC makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

Eldariel

2012-11-18, 08:32 AM

Hmm... interesting! Yeah, Karma-Lulu-Jarvan seems to be a good combo. And since the core power isn't coming from the ADC, Urgot's presence there as a way to at least partially shut down the other team's ADC makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

It's just a bruiser team with two super shield champs (Karma and Lulu) to make everybody unkillable. Urgot is the classic AD-carry shutting down bruiser.

Cogwheel

2012-11-18, 08:40 AM

So apparently AP Pantheon/support Wukong is the best lane.

I was Wukong. So much fun.

Reynard

2012-11-18, 09:11 AM

Nami's ult has a special interaction with Hecarim's. It looks really really really badass.

Mephit

2012-11-18, 09:34 AM

Is it Moses splitting the Red Sea? It is, isn't it? :smallamused:

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-11-18, 09:43 AM

Is it Moses splitting the Red Sea? It is, isn't it? :smallamused:

My money is on this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594OHtl4Q1I)

Mephit

2012-11-18, 10:49 AM

Oh, yeah, pop culture references are more likely.

Reynard

2012-11-18, 11:02 AM

The only interaction is that it looks freaking sweet. Sorry to mislead. It also looks pretty badass with a Coral Malphite.

Mephit

2012-11-18, 12:33 PM

:smallfrown:
I'm still in love with Nami, though.

ex cathedra

2012-11-18, 12:43 PM

I don't understand why people think Urgot is unviable, at a time when tanky DPS are considered king.

It's probably because tanky DPS isn't considered to be king. That hasn't been a thing for almost a year now, bro. I would suggest that bruisers are actually at the worst spot now than they have been all year. Bruisers have two traditional roles, jungle and top. Jungle's pretty much nothing but support tanks now, and top lane is split between bruisers, AP carries, and pseudo AD carries.

It's also worth noting that before his last round of recent nerfs, Urgot was absolute terror. Champions always become less popular after nerfs, but Urgot's were pretty brutal (and totally deserved). He was a top-tier AD carry this spring and early summer, if I recall correctly.

Qwertystop

2012-11-18, 12:56 PM

The only interaction is that it looks freaking sweet. Sorry to mislead. It also looks pretty badass with a Coral Malphite.

Got a video? I don't have a PBE account.

Reynard

2012-11-18, 12:59 PM

Got a video? I don't have a PBE account.

I'd make one, but none of my PBE friends are online and getting people to cooperate is hard enough. When I get the chance, though.

I might also include HomeguardMoots/Scimitar/Shurelia's/Ghostblade/2xShiv/Ghost/Revive Hecarim. if I get the chance.

Istari

2012-11-18, 01:24 PM

Gah, played a few games on the PBE, but switching to the new interface is painful. It's much more elegant than the old one, but it takes a little while to transition. The worst part is that it came with the new items so the slowdown from my unfamiliarity hurts when I try to figure out what new item to buy.

toasty

2012-11-18, 04:24 PM

It's probably because tanky DPS isn't considered to be king. That hasn't been a thing for almost a year now, bro. I would suggest that bruisers are actually at the worst spot now than they have been all year. Bruisers have two traditional roles, jungle and top. Jungle's pretty much nothing but support tanks now, and top lane is split between bruisers, AP carries, and pseudo AD carries.

I think Bruisers are in an alright spot honestly, and I'm unsure, beyond Kalye, who the pseudo AD carries top lane are.

Something I think people tend to forget is the APs played top are invariably built more tanky. Vlad, Rumble, Gragas, Galio, Malphite (well, sorta), Chogath, etc. These guys all have the ability to build AP and many of them are competitive APs middle, but send them top lane and you will see damage on them (well, the ones that always build damage, Malphite/Cho are outliers) but you'll also see tank. Vlad top doesn't always build deathcap, but I would argue Vlad middle really should.

Also, I'd say look at recent Tourement performances for top lane bruisers vs. AP/AD carries. Vlad, Rumble, and Gragas are hardly played. Since Worlds, I think people have decided Vlad is best middle. Galio is never played for some reason, Malphite is played and has versatile build options, Chogath mostly jungles though. Irelia, Jayce, Singed (another AP bruiser, actually), Darius, Lee Sin, Olaf, Shen, and Yorick are all perfectly viable bruisers top and all seem very popular.

ChaosOS

2012-11-18, 04:58 PM

Hecarim on the PBE is definitely really strong. The new items synergize with him ridiculously. Spirit of the lizard elder turns the area around him into perpetual true damage burning, as frozen fist makes him cleave through minion waves super fast.

ex cathedra

2012-11-18, 05:52 PM

I think Bruisers are in an alright spot honestly, and I'm unsure, beyond Kalye, who the pseudo AD carries top lane are.

Pretty much every Jayce at this point builds AD instead of that silly Triforce nonsense, and he's a very notable top. I didn't say that bruisers were in a bad spot, Toasty, just that they're a) not nearly as dominant as people still insist that they are, and b) not as strong as they once were for countless reasons.

Top Vlad still builds Deathcap in every game that he gets the chance, AFAIK, it's just that it's less viable to rush than Abyssal/Guise. That's a damage build. Rumble and Malphite build the same. I've still never seen top Gragas, but I can't imagine that he would build anything out of the ordinary, and top Kat is catching on and it too is pretty much straight MPen/damage.

Lix Lorn

2012-11-18, 08:28 PM

Unless I'm playing an ADC, in which case, I make a point to, every 180 seconds, turn to my healbitch and go "Hey, you should have wards, why do you have no wards?"
Ahahahahahahahaha
(applies desk to forehead repeatedly)

NineThePuma

2012-11-18, 08:33 PM

Turning to you and asking where the wards are gets me hurt. I'm not dumb enough to get you mad at me. :P

LordShotGun

2012-11-18, 09:38 PM

I'd make one, but none of my PBE friends are online and getting people to cooperate is hard enough. When I get the chance, though.

I might also include HomeguardMoots/Scimitar/Shurelia's/Ghostblade/2xShiv/Ghost/Revive Hecarim. if I get the chance.

What is the interaction? Describe it.

NineThePuma

2012-11-18, 10:02 PM

Tychris1

2012-11-18, 10:17 PM

It 's Hec Ult with a GIANT TSUNAMI BEHIND HIM.

It's not a "hidden interaction" it's just awesome looking.

Also: how did I never hear about this before? (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1985926)

Seems fun, albeit I feel like ADC's would get pushed around and that bruisers would dominate that game type. Albeit, that does seem like a nice place where my newest character (Fiora) that I got can flourish (Pun intended).

Forrestfire

2012-11-18, 10:22 PM

NineThePuma

2012-11-18, 10:25 PM

Seems fun, albeit I feel like ADC's would get pushed around and that bruisers would dominate that game type. Albeit, that does seem like a nice place where my newest character (Fiora) that I got can flourish (Pun intended).

I got Cait on my first time. I could go in against a low health opponent and immediately trash them with my ult.

EDIT: and, yeah, if anyone wants in, I'm more than willing to go with people.

ex cathedra

2012-11-18, 10:31 PM

I've played a lot of KoS with a couple of regulars and I feel that I should warn you that it is exceedingly difficult to get 10 players who will actually play properly. KoS has very specific rules relative to many game modes and it can be hard to find cooperative players.

Edit:
Not to discourage you. It's pretty fun, better than ARAB, PTQ, Catch the Teemo, etc, but less fun than ARAM/Draft Racing in my opinion.

NineThePuma

2012-11-18, 10:49 PM

We only had to remake once, when one player didn't seem to know the rules.

Tychris1

2012-11-18, 10:59 PM

I got Cait on my first time. I could go in against a low health opponent and immediately trash them with my ult.

EDIT: and, yeah, if anyone wants in, I'm more than willing to go with people.

Not sure if Twitch could pull that off, but maybe Draven could. I've been meaning to learn him.

Wait, doesn't capping the windmill mean the minions will cap the other turrets? Or are those pre capped? Don't remember reading about that..... Anyway, would definetely want to try that out soon.

NineThePuma

2012-11-18, 11:23 PM

Twitch is VERY strong, IMO, especially cause he can grab lots of arpen, has a true damage DoT, and has EXCELLENT kiting.

Forrestfire

2012-11-18, 11:27 PM

Also, stealth-entering the arena is stupidly annoying.

Tychris1

2012-11-18, 11:30 PM

Well then, that's heartening to know :smallbiggrin:.

Douglas

2012-11-18, 11:49 PM

Wait, doesn't capping the windmill mean the minions will cap the other turrets? Or are those pre capped? Don't remember reading about that..... Anyway, would definetely want to try that out soon.
Minions only spawn from capped turrets if the adjacent turret is capped by the other team. If those turrets are left neutral, no minions spawn.

NineThePuma

2012-11-19, 12:01 AM

Olaf is Beast.

Just wanna say that.

Forrestfire

2012-11-19, 12:03 AM

Also, so is Sona. :smalltongue:

I think their AP sona was the only one I (jax) had any trouble with.

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 12:08 AM

Top Vlad still builds Deathcap in every game that he gets the chance, AFAIK, it's just that it's less viable to rush than Abyssal/Guise. That's a damage build. Rumble and Malphite build the same. I've still never seen top Gragas, but I can't imagine that he would build anything out of the ordinary, and top Kat is catching on and it too is pretty much straight MPen/damage.

You clearly haven't watched Voyboy enough; hilariously enough he started playing Gragas top after I'd asked him during some stream session if he thinks it's viable (Gragas has an ASpd slow, is naturally tanky as hell, and mobile so he's kinda natural fit for toplane). Voy used to run Gragas in CLG poke comps and now he's running him in general in top with Crs.

And it's worth noting that many midlaners build tanky first nowadays too; Froggen's go-to Ahri build is Doran's > Abyssal > Zhonya for instance. Orianna is almost invariably built with Chalice into stuff, and Anivia, Grag, etc. are obvious.

NineThePuma

2012-11-19, 12:12 AM

Yeah, that was crazy. Panth? Ripped to pieces. Warwick? he even ULTED onto you and you got him. Sona? Wrecks you :P

All in all, a good night. I barely had to go with Jax/Olaf/Katarina doing all the heavy lifting.

Math_Mage

2012-11-19, 12:20 AM

You clearly haven't watched Voyboy enough; hilariously enough he started playing Gragas top after I'd asked him during some stream session if he thinks it's viable (Gragas has an ASpd slow, is naturally tanky as hell, and mobile so he's kinda natural fit for toplane). Voy used to run Gragas in CLG poke comps and now he's running him in general in top with Crs.

And it's worth noting that many midlaners build tanky first nowadays too; Froggen's go-to Ahri build is Doran's > Abyssal > Zhonya for instance. Orianna is almost invariably built with Chalice into stuff, and Anivia, Grag, etc. are obvious.

Having run into top lane Gragas once, I can attest that he is annoying as hell. Even if he's behind, it feels like you can't do anything to him. Of course, I was Xin without much enemy jungle pressure, so I unambiguously won lane, but still.

ex cathedra

2012-11-19, 12:22 AM

And it's worth noting that many midlaners build tanky first nowadays too; Froggen's go-to Ahri build is Doran's > Abyssal > Zhonya for instance. Orianna is almost invariably built with Chalice into stuff, and Anivia, Grag, etc. are obvious.

To be fair, tanky AP itemization is ridiculous. It's not like you aren't building damage.

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 02:08 AM

To be fair, tanky AP itemization is ridiculous. It's not like you aren't building damage.

Mhm. I just started playing Swain more. Been going a bit unorthodox with Chalice > Zhonya/Abyssal > Grail > Guardian Angel. Seems Grail covers the mana problems, Abyssal/Sorcs is as good as ever and having 3 effective lives with 200 Armor/MR is quite solid for the Staying Alive-part.

On Treeline you even have room for a Blackfire Torch or a Voidstaff in the last slot. On SR I usually have to settle for a Deathcap.

Godskook

2012-11-19, 02:38 AM

Mhm. I just started playing Swain more. Been going a bit unorthodox with Chalice > Zhonya/Abyssal > Grail > Guardian Angel. Seems Grail covers the mana problems, Abyssal/Sorcs is as good as ever and having 3 effective lives with 200 Armor/MR is quite solid for the Staying Alive-part.

AP + GA? I wouldn't really cal that unorthodox. Hell, you're still getting Deathcap, an M-Pen item, and CDR. Plus, resists are unusually good on Swain, since he's got decent innate healing.

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 02:40 AM

AP + GA? I wouldn't really cal that unorthodox. Hell, you're still getting Deathcap, an M-Pen item, and CDR. Plus, resists are unusually good on Swain, since he's got decent innate healing.

Grail over RoA is the unorthodox pick; RoA has been the staple mana item for Swain for his whole existence more or less.

Dallas-Dakota

2012-11-19, 05:54 AM

I only get grail(after RoA) if I can't get regular blues.

Hmm, I seemed to get into something here, a little guide for everybody who wants to make sure their enemies get Swain.

Swain, ze General of War, and the Raven of Death.

In what teamcomp do you want Swain: when you want a ranged tanky ap with sustain who can go mid or top.
Preferably with a non-blue reliant jungler who can initiate and tank the first round of damage.
For the AD carry, anybody but Ez, unless Ez can manage his mana troubles.(IE. having MP5 runes/Soraka/very good with managing his skills)
You need to be blue numero #1
Supports: Leona, Sona, Janna, Alistar, Then other ones.
Top/mid: Doesn't matter that much, preferably non-blue reliant with a lot of burst so that you have both burst and DoT.

Masteries: 21/0/9(offensive AP + Utility mana(regen) and buff duration)
Spells: Flash+Ignite.

Skills: R>E>Q>W.

Items:

Boots + 3 pot
Catalyst
Boots 2/ROA(a early roa is key to winning the ending of your laning)
Spirit visage/hourglass
Grail/ Deathcap/ Abyssal scepter. Voidstaff if you're doing really well and they're building MR.

If doing really wel: Go ahead and build that deathcap after your RoA. Spirit visage and Hourglass can come later. Press you advantage.
Addional defensive items if problems with enemy Phys dmg: Frozen Heart, GA.
Addional defensive items if problems with enemy magic dmg: QSS, Banshees.

The trick towards not having mana problems in laning, is just last-hitting properly. Don't underestimate how much mana you can get from your passive, it is a lot. Not to mention that I run a set of MP5's on Swain.:smalltongue:

On skills:
Q: The laserbird: Nice for a slow and some damage. Try to throw this just before your snare wears off instead of landing it straight away. No use in him walking away a second after your snare ends.
W: Nevermove: A delayed AoE snare. A one point wonder. This skill however has a long cooldown, so keep an eye on your jungler, because if he wants to gank, you need this spell up.
E: Torment: A strong DoT spell which also amplifies your other damage by 8% / 11% / 14% / 17% / 20%. (from 3 points in and onward, it amplifies more then Vlads friggen ult! But only for you, because you are special.:smallwink: )
If somebody is E'd, don't just stand there, throw in some AA's, they're also amplified!:smallbiggrin:

Why level it that way: Ult is pretty straightforward, more damage and thus more healing, you want that. But why E over Q? Your Q might be doing more damage, but the damage amplification on your E, makes your total damage output more then your Q could hope to offer.

R: Boogy time: Sends out three ravens of damage which will heal you for a quarter of the damage done. Pretty mana intensive though.

Try to figure out when you're getting harassed in lane and you need ult-healing, when you should do so. Your mana should always be higher then your health when you do it, in my oppinion. Plan ahead, buy some ward, because ult healing will push your lane.
As a general guideline:
When you don't have blue, try to save your ult for when going in for the kill.

For teamfights, the same things go, save it for when going for the kill or you think you'l be getting a lot of focus.

Spellcombo: WEQ. R when described as above.

Teamfighting in General(Ha):
You're a tanky AP who likes to be in the middle of things. You go in after the tank.
Combo whoever is fed or squishy enough to go down quick.
Hourglass if you're getting focussed and let the heat go a bit to your mid/top and AD carry. In the later part of the combat, try to kite more as you will slowly(or not so slowly) be running OOM.

Uh I think I got everything, have fun Swaining your enemies!

TechnOkami

2012-11-19, 06:18 AM

Reads "Last Hitting Is Key to Swain", cries self to sleep.

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 07:07 AM

Hm, few things I've found I do differently:

Masteries: 21/0/9(offensive AP + Utility mana(regen) and buff duration)

I actually run 9-12-9 on him; I find having Indomitable and Creep Damage allows for great lane aggression. I've also run 19/11/0 on him but ultimately I feel the extra mana and buff duration is stronger than the extra AP.

Skills: R>E>Q>W.

I go E > W > Q; E's great for winning the lane especially since it amplifies autoattack and Ignite damage, but W gets its cooldown reduced by ranking it while Q only gets damage & slow increase by ranking it, not to mention W's great for shoving lanes.

Boots 2/ROA(a early roa is key to winning the ending of your laning)

As I touched on above, I liked how the Grail-experiment went against mage laners (against physicals it's fully possible you're too squishy that way; didn't get to test it; I'm tempted to try Doran's Shields there); your ult gives you stupid amounts of effective HP so the extra MR gives you great increase in your durability, and the CDR allows you to hit the CDR cap with blue which is really nice for a mage who plans to sit in the fight for its whole duration.

Reynard

2012-11-19, 07:19 AM

Reads "Last Hitting Is Key to Swain", cries self to sleep.

I hate to say it, Techno, but last hitting is key to every role in the game besides Jungle and Support, and even then those two should know how to do it with the champ they're playing.

PersonMan

2012-11-19, 11:15 AM

I hate to say it, Techno, but last hitting is key to every role in the game besides Jungle and Support, and even then those two should know how to do it with the champ they're playing.

I disagree. There are some top laners, for example, for whom last hitting isn't really mandatory. Sure, it's better if you can, but they can get by without it. Kennen, for example, can farm with Q, E/W, etc. without much last hitting skill.

Same with some others. This probably doesn't apply at higher skill levels, but often lane dominance -> shoving lane + warding is enough to keep an enemy from catching up.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-19, 11:23 AM

I disagree. There are some top laners, for example, for whom last hitting isn't really mandatory. Sure, it's better if you can, but they can get by without it. Kennen, for example, can farm with Q, E/W, etc. without much last hitting skill.

Same with some others. This probably doesn't apply at higher skill levels, but often lane dominance -> shoving lane + warding is enough to keep an enemy from catching up.

"Hi. I'm Garen. You might remember me from such movies as 'How is He Tower Diving at Level 2?!' and 'How I Met Your Jungler.' Some of you seem to think I need to last hit, and, well, that's just erroneous. You see, I just spin, and I always win. Remember, kids, real champs don't quit or do drugs. They spin to win."

PersonMan

2012-11-19, 11:33 AM

I was thinking more about Renekton and Darius, but they all spin to win, so it's close enough.

Reynard

2012-11-19, 12:15 PM

Last hitting is still important, because sometimes you don't want to push your lane into their face the entire time. Sometimes you want to attempt to deny them creeps/XP, or are stuck under tower where being able to pick off minions as your tower damages them is really helpful. Spinning-to-farm under tower just gets 75% of the wave killed by said tower.

Silverraptor

2012-11-19, 12:35 PM

Last hitting is important on every champion. Everyone needs gold to contribute in the late game.

And Techno, you don't need to be perfect in last hitting. I'm not perfect and miss some last hits here and there. All you need to do is just keep practicing and get better at it.

TechnOkami

2012-11-19, 12:40 PM

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 12:46 PM

Season 3 Mastery Calculator (http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/). I'm really liking the look of Spellblade, given how much I like to autoattack with my magi. Granted, 5% isn't all that but it's still quite useful.

Lethality being better on melee than range is interesting; I wonder if it's worth taking points in anymore given it's so hard to itemize crit efficiently on melee types and it's not worth as much on rangeds. Then again, 10% ASpd buff seems massive late.

Also, Brute Force is gone so it might be worth it to run Butcher if last hitting is a problem. I'll also pay a higher opportunity cost for decent AD on my mages now since it's a 12 point mastery, not a first tier one.

Safe Guard and Relentless look really good. Both Offense and Defense capstones got worse tho. Top tier Defense is looking really oddball in general. Swiftness became Utility capstone tho. That's interesting. Also, all the Move Speed is in Utility now so Utility is much more enticing for ganking junglers and Singed. Biscuiteer/Explorer are oddball but probably worth it if you're going that deep in Utility.

Meditation on tier 1 makes splashing Utility way easier. Also, Artificer looks interesting; I wonder how much that's really worth tho given the types of cooldowns on item actives. Hm, it'll probably be really strong on Dominion tho.

Silverraptor

2012-11-19, 12:57 PM

Forrestfire

2012-11-19, 01:01 PM

I am a huge fan of the Utility tree here, since Biscuiteer lets me buy more starting wards as the support, and explorer is just an extra ward, which is pretty awesome.

I wonder if 14/0/16 would be worth it on a champ like Jax in order to get both Spellsword and Vampirism (and the biscuit and the ward...).

ex cathedra

2012-11-19, 01:28 PM

I know. I'm still going to complain about it though.

Please don't.

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 01:40 PM

I'm kinda sad defense lost its CDR. It was nice, having a reasonably easy way to gain a decent bundle of CDR for tanky types, and being able to get 12% of it from masteries for champs who really want heavy CDR build. Also, the flat champ damage reduction masteries seem utterly worthless for anything but superearlygame, and even then...

That said, I guess some of the new things in the tree, such as the slow reduction and the tenacity are quite interesting. Btw, I just reread pickpocket. Holy **** that'll add up fast on AD carries. I wonder if I could find an excuse to run 9/0/21 on ADs the oldschool way.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-19, 01:57 PM

Pickpocket treats Parrrley! as melee.

BRB, maining support!Plank.

Legoshrimp

2012-11-19, 02:01 PM

9mm

2012-11-19, 02:07 PM

Strength of Singed is still too far into the tree still, which makes me sad.

Eurus

2012-11-19, 02:13 PM

TechnOkami

2012-11-19, 02:40 PM

Please don't.

k'

I still want to though.

NineThePuma

2012-11-19, 02:45 PM

I wish I could get on the PBE, but every time I try I get blocked.

Tychris1

2012-11-19, 02:48 PM

I wish I could get on the PBE, but every time I try I get blocked.

We should siege the PBE, set up barricades around the perimeter and knock people away from entering. Then, when no ones inside, we can go in and steal all the items and take them back with us to the main client.

Now if only we were all Anivia.....

Reynard

2012-11-19, 02:48 PM

I wish I could get on the PBE, but every time I try I get blocked.

You talking about the gigantic 'over 9000' login queues? Yeah, they've be pretty stupid for a while.

ex cathedra

2012-11-19, 02:48 PM

9/0/21 masteries on everyone, carry junglers + nunu, starting items other than boots+3? Pretty sure S3 is just S1 with new items.

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-19, 02:52 PM

That said, I guess some of the new things in the tree, such as the slow reduction and the tenacity are quite interesting. Btw, I just reread pickpocket. Holy **** that'll add up fast on AD carries. I wonder if I could find an excuse to run 9/0/21 on ADs the oldschool way.

13/0/17 (http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#3lUq77ydtZM7lla). Off. masteries focus on last hitting. Sup. masteries focus on getting out of lane, back to lane, and gold gen in order to secure your late game.

The lack of late game damage hurts, but it's serviceable to run something like this.

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 02:55 PM

13/0/17 (http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#3lUq77ydtZM7lla). Off. masteries focus on last hitting. Sup. masteries focus on getting out of lane, back to lane, and gold gen in order to secure your late game.

The lack of late game damage hurts, but it's serviceable to run something like this.

Hm, Meditation over Wanderer, Biscuiteer and Explorer over Wealth, could be workable. Tho it does lose out on 1.5 damage early on, and Crit masteries, Sunder and Executioner. With the new Sword of the Divine, Artificer could be interesting. It's worth noting tho that with the patch, Sunder's value goes up significantly and we might want to look at ArPen runes again.

Duos

2012-11-19, 03:01 PM

Also, it goes without saying that champions like Darius and Wukong with built-in armor shred or penetration become much better. I'm trying to get some Dunkmaster D practice in before we roll over into 3.

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-19, 03:05 PM

Hm, Meditation over Wanderer, Biscuiteer and Explorer over Wealth, could be workable. Tho it does lose out on 1.5 damage early on, and Crit masteries, Sunder and Executioner. With the new Sword of the Divine, Artificer could be interesting. It's worth noting tho that with the patch, Sunder's value goes up significantly and we might want to look at ArPen runes again.

Meditation might be more useful, but I favor mobility even if it is limited by combat. Biscuiteer and Explorer grant Boots+4+1 ward versus Boots+5 with wealth. I personally favor the HP, as your support will likely have Faerie+4 wards+3 pots due to biscuiteer and explorer. But the ability to take either one is there.

Losing out on Sunder is a big hit, as is losing Frenzy. The crit-damage I feel is less useful compared to a flat 2% increase at all times, but it's necessary for Frenzy. As far as ArPen: I'm already assuming ADCs are running it.

Sword of the Divine and Artificer I hadn't considered.

Silverraptor

2012-11-19, 03:33 PM

The utility tree might be beneficial for Vayne. Get lots of gold quickly while having percent true damage in attack speed.

ex cathedra

2012-11-19, 03:36 PM

Darius doesn't get full value out of ArPen since a large portion of his damage comes from his AD-scaling magic damage bleed and AD-scaling true damage ultimate. Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Shurelya's, Scimitar, Frozen Mallet Darius sounds really hard to improve upon.

Xin, J4, Wuk, GP, and Nocturne are gonna be interesting.

Legoshrimp

2012-11-19, 03:42 PM

LordShotGun

2012-11-19, 03:52 PM

Oh yeah, what are the changes to armor pen and magic pen?

More or less they "Stack" better now. As in, previously if you had 20 armor reduction and 40% armor penetration, the reduction would go first and the pen would go second. Now it is percentage first and flat second.

Teron

2012-11-19, 04:07 PM

I don't think that's right. Percentages are applied before flat numbers now, but reductions of both kinds should still precede penetration.

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-11-19, 04:08 PM

Xin, J4, Wuk, GP, and Nocturne are gonna be interesting.

Wait, why are J4 and Wukong better now? Armour reduction works the way it used to, doesn't it? Is it just their itemisation getting better or am I missing something about the arpen changes?

I don't think that's right. Percentages are applied before flat numbers now, but reductions of both kinds should still precede penetration.

Pretty sure it's like that, yeah.

Teron

2012-11-19, 04:10 PM

If I'm right, they're not getting better (since there are no flat armour-reducing items left) except in combination with other champions like Corki and Taric.

McDouggal

2012-11-19, 04:21 PM

I'm saying "time to put 9 in utility on all masteries" now since the summoner spell CD is no longer 21. YOU ONLY NEED 7! HAHAHA!

Also, going deep into the defense tree looks very interesting.

Tychris1

2012-11-19, 04:32 PM

Eldariel

2012-11-19, 04:36 PM

Hmmm... With the meta changing due to Season 3, and my competency at the game slowly increasing I think it's about time I should play ranked games. Is it any better to play a full pre-made team of 5 or is the experience substantially worse with random other people?

What people usually mean by ranked is solo/duo queue, where you can form a premade with at most 1 other player and you will have at least 3 randoms in your team.

If you don't mind normal queue with randoms, ranked's no worse (though note, your ranked elo starts at 1200; if you're significantly better than average in normals, you'll have to put up with people you normally don't see for your first few games).

Just make sure you have some basic competency in every role preferably, decent runepages, understanding of how draft mode works, and preferably some not commonly banned champion you're really strong on and you'll be good to go. If you have one really good champion just tell it to your team and try to get said champion as often as possible, but be again, have a champ for each role prepared for when your role gets taken by somebody else.

Joran

2012-11-19, 04:47 PM

k'

I still want to though.

Don't worry, I'm also on board with the "I dislike last hitting". However, I recognize that last hitting adds an easy to understand dynamic to the game and it adds nice depth (e.g. do I harass or do I focus on last hitting). I keep trying to think of a mechanic that would be less based on mechanical skill, especially one that differs so much depending on champion and role, but I can't think of one as elegant as last hitting.

So I've mostly made my peace with it and just curse every time I miss a last hit =P

P.S. Anyone else getting the feeling "Hey, I finally understand the game! I know what items are good, what masteries to put on which champions, how to rune, the current meta and wuh... they're changing everything AGAIN?"

SlyGuyMcFly

2012-11-19, 04:50 PM

Hmmm... With the meta changing due to Season 3, and my competency at the game slowly increasing I think it's about time I should play ranked games. Is it any better to play a full pre-made team of 5 or is the experience substantially worse with random other people?

In my experience, soloQ Ranked is a real crapshoot, moreso than normal soloQ. Since most people put their tryhard caps on, player behaviours are magnified somewhat. Depending on the type of tryharding they do, the overcompetitive whiners and ragers rage and whine that much more, the team players play with the team that much better, the trolls are trollier and that one skilled player in the team becomes a godlike play-making machine.

P.S. Anyone else getting the feeling "Hey, I finally understand the game! I know what items are good, what masteries to put on which champions, how to rune, the current meta and wuh... they're changing everything AGAIN?"

For me it's more a "Wow, this is getting pretty stale. Oh wait, everything is different again. AWESOME!".

Joran

2012-11-19, 04:58 PM

For me it's more a "Wow, this is getting pretty stale. Oh wait, everything is different again. AWESOME!".

But I've finally figured out how to mastery an ADC properly two weeks ago!

P.S. Yes, I'm behind, so sue me XD

Fredaintdead

2012-11-19, 05:17 PM

I keep trying to think of a mechanic that would be less based on mechanical skill, especially one that differs so much depending on champion and role, but I can't think of one as elegant as last hitting.

SMITE has a different mechanic that works fairly well (in that it encourages champ vs champ harass/combat over focusing on last hitting). Basically, as long as you hit a minion, you'll get gold when it dies, but you'll get a bit more if you last hit. Which I think could work, but yeah, last hitting as it exists is okay in terms of its mechanical depth, and a different system may not work in LoL as it does in another MOBA (in SMITE, the fact that you're in 3rd person over the shoulder view instead of topdown, kind of makes you focus on map and spatial awareness instead of timing last hits).

Godskook

2012-11-19, 08:12 PM

That said, I guess some of the new things in the tree, such as the slow reduction and the tenacity are quite interesting.

I'm really loving the multiple sources of anti-slow. Might help make Udyr more useful in higher Elo games.

ChaosOS

2012-11-19, 08:35 PM

Freaking PBE que is forever. Got into que like 4.5k, 2 hours later 200 away from being in.

NineThePuma

2012-11-19, 08:39 PM

While it's probably not optimal, I'm really digging Spirit Stone + Philo for my jungle sustain needs. Spirit Stone and Philo both provide mana + health regen, which you don't really need a lot of unless you're blowing abilities to clear camps, but damn if the both of them aren't really good at it.

toasty

2012-11-19, 08:47 PM

Hmmm... With the meta changing due to Season 3, and my competency at the game slowly increasing I think it's about time I should play ranked games. Is it any better to play a full pre-made team of 5 or is the experience substantially worse with random other people?

Ranked Solo Queue and ranked 5s are completely different and here's why:

Ranked Solo Queue promises you, no matter what, there will be 3 guys on your team who cannot talk to the others without using chat. You can have the almighty double duo queue+ 1 random, but still, you'll never meet 3 stacks, 4 stacks, or 5 stacks (unless you are in high elo and players end up in the same vent by some weird twist of fate).

Ranked 5s means you're on a team, against another team. Teams always are a lot more coordinated and make more complicated plays. Level 1s happen more often. Aggressive ganks, lane swapping, counter jungling, specific team comps. Solo queue is a crap shot in terms of any of this happening, but in ranked 5s I've learned to expect all of it.

Overall, Ranked 5s is a BETTER experience because, IMO, its the way League of Legends, and other MOBA/ARTS games are meant to be played: 5 people on 1 team communicating with voice chat against a similarly skilled, similarly equipped, team. Its a richer experience. I've learned more in a few Ranked 5s than in a 100 Solo Queue games.

Having said that: its hard as hell to maintain a regular ranked 5s team. :smallfrown:

ex cathedra

2012-11-19, 09:29 PM

Primal Udyr is going on sale.

This can mean only one thing.

Legendary Udyr skin incoming.

Silverraptor

2012-11-19, 09:34 PM

Primal Udyr is going on sale.

This can mean only one thing.

Legendary Udyr skin incoming.

Wait, Primal Udyr wasn't a legendary skin?:smalltongue:

Godskook

2012-11-19, 09:44 PM

Wait, Primal Udyr wasn't a legendary skin?:smalltongue:

Wait....Primal Udyr is a skin?
Speaking as someone who has played several hundred games as Udyr, I have no idea what his 'base' skin looks like.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-19, 10:18 PM

Wait....Primal Udyr is a skin?

Wait, who's Udyr?

Godskook

2012-11-19, 10:33 PM

Wait, who's Udyr?

The manliest champion in the League.

Tychris1

2012-11-19, 10:35 PM

The manliest champion in the League.

"Don't worry guys, i'm going to Udyr their faces."

-One of the scariest Junglers i've ever played with

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-19, 10:45 PM

The most-kitable champion in the League.

Oh, right, him!

Nadevoc

2012-11-19, 11:06 PM

So I'm kinda upset that the support's gold generation mastery is so deep in the Utility tree. I understand that they want it to be hard for other people to pick up, but I've never specced that deep into Utility on supports. I went 0/21/9 for a long time, and now I go 1/15/14. Admittedly part of that is that the Utility tree is pretty meh right now, but I also like having extra bulk/defense so I can be more aggressive and try to harrass and push people out of lane. I feel like this might basically force supports to have at least 17 points in Utility.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-19, 11:53 PM

I have 6300, but there's nobody in that bracket I like.

Between Irelia and Miss Fortune, who would you recommend?

TechnOkami

2012-11-20, 12:04 AM

I have 6300, but there's nobody in that bracket I like.

Between Irelia and Miss Fortune, who would you recommend?

a.) Do you want a top lane bruiser who is "supposedly" easy as all hell to play, or do you want an AD Carry.

b.) Do you want a girl who plays with blades or do you want a girl who plays with guns?

c.) Do you want to be from Japan or the Caribbean?

ex cathedra

2012-11-20, 12:25 AM

TechnOkami

2012-11-20, 12:28 AM

ex cathedra

2012-11-20, 12:33 AM

Yeah, but what does MF do? Not be able to cast her ult in a fight because it lowers her DPS and CCs her? Run away from people when they run at you? Depend on your team to peel for you because you have zero re-positioning skills? Where are those hearts even coming from?

MF: suspicious as ****.
Irelia: da best. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-CaNRI5ytM)

i still haven't used aviator irelia ._.

Forrestfire

2012-11-20, 12:41 AM

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-20, 12:49 AM

Triforce-Wit's-winthegamecuzyouneverdieorgetCCed?

Forrestfire

2012-11-20, 02:16 AM

NineThePuma

2012-11-20, 02:18 AM

You know, with the new tenacity stuff, I think Irelia's actually got MORE tenacity in S3. And now she doesn't even have to buy Merc Treads to do it! (admittedly, the other tenacity items aren't screaming "OH, PLEASE, TAKE ME NOW!")

Also: Elise's Miracle might be worth the 1.1k gold you spend on it, if you grab it early enough, since it stops taking up an item slot.

I grabbed it in a bot game as Skarner, and while it wasn't "ZOMG, FANTASTIC!" I ended up having a LOT of passive regen, enough so that I could vanish into the enemy jungle at fairly low, clear their wraiths and golems, and walk back out with ~3/4 of my HP. Mana was a different story, but yeah.

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 02:24 AM

I have a question about playing in losing lanes. When a player has been outlaned to the point where the enemy is strong and confident enough to dive them for a kill and get away, what should the laner do? We had this situation in my last game, where I (the jungler) tried to gank mid exclusively but our Fizz still got outlaned hard by their Diana.

He ended up doing much better out of lane, going from zero to ten kills by the end of the game, but I want to know what I can do, as the jungler, to help a lane that's failing so hard.

In any case, I'd also like to thank Godskook and LegoShrimp for being able to deal with their lanes without me being able to spare more than one gank each. :smallbiggrin:

All you can do is gank and try to arrange a laneswap. Wait 'til the enemy overextends, have your laner bait and then gank when they're diving. That's the most annoying thing ever for the laner and almost guaranteed kills and yeah.

I have 6300, but there's nobody in that bracket I like.

Between Irelia and Miss Fortune, who would you recommend?

Irelia's kinda perfect for Unlimited Blade Works. The choice is obvious.

Math_Mage

2012-11-20, 02:27 AM

I have a question about playing in losing lanes. When a player has been outlaned to the point where the enemy is strong and confident enough to dive them for a kill and get away, what should the laner do? We had this situation in my last game, where I (the jungler) tried to gank mid exclusively but our Fizz still got outlaned hard by their Diana.

He ended up doing much better out of lane, going from zero to ten kills by the end of the game, but I want to know what I can do, as the jungler, to help a lane that's failing so hard.

In any case, I'd also like to thank Godskook and LegoShrimp for being able to deal with their lanes without me being able to spare more than one gank each. :smallbiggrin:

With Fizz, I'd sorta expect that he could use his mobility to farm without dying, and snowball other lanes. Then again, you can also use that mobility to bait a dive and gank...but honestly, if Diana's strong enough to dive Fizz, 2v1 is a risky proposition. *shrug* This is why I don't jungle (and probably should). I can't make those calls very well.

Godskook

2012-11-20, 02:30 AM

"Don't worry guys, i'm going to Udyr their faces."

-One of the scariest Junglers i've ever played with

That made my day.

He ended up doing much better out of lane, going from zero to ten kills by the end of the game, but I want to know what I can do, as the jungler, to help a lane that's failing so hard.

1.Ward a lot to prevent 'surprise' ganks on other lanes.

2.Bait the aggression, and punish it. Hard to kill a Fizz under tower with a Nunu showing up and cutting off exit paths.

3.You and the laner follow the fed laner into a gank. (You did this one)

4.Abandon the lost lane, and focus on getting your strong lanes farther ahead than the lost lane is behind. Essentially, turn it into a snowball race.

In any case, I'd also like to thank Godskook and LegoShrimp for being able to deal with their lanes without me being able to spare more than one gank each. :smallbiggrin:

Technically, you ganked bot twice, but the second time, it was to countergank Diana/Jax, for the 3-1 trade in our favor.

Cogwheel

2012-11-20, 02:32 AM

So I just had an idea. Zyra, Morgana, Lux, Soraka, Taric, one of those supports who benefits from AP and ideally CDR too.

Second, a carry that deals a lot of magic damage. AP Teemo, AP Twisted Fate, on-hit Kog'Maw, Kayle, someone like that.

What I'm getting at here is that I really want to try support Deathfire Grasp in season 3.

Gillfish

2012-11-20, 02:35 AM

I have 6300, but there's nobody in that bracket I like.

Between Irelia and Miss Fortune, who would you recommend?

Speaking as someone who mainly plays AD carrys, I find Miss Fortune to be largely uninteresting compared to a lot of champions, and so would recommend Irelia. But hey, its your IP, buy who you want.

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 02:43 AM

I found the CLG.EU vs. CLG.NA showmatch VODs from the FragsForCharity:
http://www.twitch.tv/fragforcharity/b/341160242?t=353m00s

Insanely awesome games.

Godskook

2012-11-20, 02:50 AM

Not be able to cast her ult in a fight because it lowers her DPS and CCs her?

Between the range(over double her auto range), AD ratio(1.8 is enough to be comparable to autos pre-crit well into the late game), and the AoE status, I find that claim dubious. In a strict AoE-to-win comp, MF is a decent choice to follow galio/amumu or w/e your mid/jungler lockdown ults are.

Granted, I see where you're coming from with all your other points(self-CC, no repositioning skills, and where *DO* those hearts come from), but not on this one. I also don't really see her as any fun, either, but some people love that AoE-to-win thing, so more power to them, I guess.

Also, loved the song.

TechnOkami

2012-11-20, 03:25 AM

Well, I feel like an idiot. I finally found out why I've never been able to Irelia.

I never noticed the second half of her Q.

I might actually be able to bloody play her now.

TFT

2012-11-20, 04:05 AM

Well, I feel like an idiot. I finally found out why I've never been able to Irelia.

I never noticed the second half of her Q.

I might actually be able to bloody play her now.

Oh...

That sucks :smallfrown:. If it makes you feel better, I didn't realize how lux's passive worked until like my third game.

Cogwheel

2012-11-20, 04:07 AM

Oh...

That sucks :smallfrown:. If it makes you feel better, I didn't realize how lux's passive worked until like my third game.

On a similar note, you don't want to know how long it took me to figure out how to actually deal damage properly with Poison Trail.

Or that Amumu's Despair should, perhaps, not be left on at all times.

TechnOkami

2012-11-20, 04:35 AM

On a similar note, you don't want to know how long it took me to figure out how to actually deal damage properly with Poison Trail.

Or that Amumu's Despair should, perhaps, not be left on at all times.

Or leaving Mundo's W on too long. :smallbiggrin:

Winthur

2012-11-20, 05:00 AM

Oh, right, him!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2czx46f.jpg

Yo, what's up?

ZeroNumerous

2012-11-20, 05:02 AM

Ashe vs Sion compared to Ashe vs Udyr

Flash-ranged stun.

Sion's actually capable of doing something other than dying in that match up.

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 05:06 AM

Flash-ranged stun.

Sion's actually capable of doing something other than dying in that match up.

Twisted Fate vs. Udyr is similarly hilarious. Every time he gets close you'll have gold card up.

Winthur

2012-11-20, 05:06 AM

Flash-ranged stun.

Sion's actually capable of doing something other than dying in that match up.

Frankly, any bruiser is going to die to Ashe if she has items. In general though, I'd say Udyr is less kitable than Sion because he at least has Bear Stance. Really though I figure it's going to end up as "Flash into stun, get kited out of range, be useless for the rest of the fight" on both sides.

TheShrike

2012-11-20, 05:49 AM

I found the CLG.EU vs. CLG.NA showmatch VODs from the FragsForCharity:
http://www.twitch.tv/fragforcharity/b/341160242?t=353m00s

Insanely awesome games.

It has been too long since I saw Jarett Cale do anything worth watching.

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-20, 09:28 AM

How does itemization for Irelia work?

Reynard

2012-11-20, 09:42 AM

How does itemization for Irelia work?

Mercs->Triforce->Wit's End->moretanky.

Like Jax except the Wit's End is more mandatory.

PersonMan

2012-11-20, 09:43 AM

How does itemization for Irelia work?

It works like this:
Buy Triforce (Generally getting Sheen or Phage first, depending on if you need burst or tanky damage; if I'm winning I go for a Sheen, if not, Phage), buy Wit's End (normally I go MR cape -> AS Bow then combine them, but sometimes I am crazy rich and grab it all at once), win.

I generally go Triforce/HoG (HoG early, but if you can get kills fairly often, don't pick Sheen/Phage over it)/Wit's End/Boots2 (upgrade after second of Phage/Sheen, generally)/HoG -> Omen of the Randuin/Big Chunk o' Ice [Frozen Heart]/Vest With Wings [GA]. I get more or less of either resistance depending on what I'm facing.

But you can generally just buy whatever after Triforce/WE, in my experience.

EDIT: Incoming Triforce/WE/Shoes/BT/BT/BT Irelia.

ex cathedra

2012-11-20, 11:09 AM

Irelia actually has pretty diverse itemization options. There's Phage+Wit's End rush (never start your triforce with Sheen unless you're building Bruta), Triforce rush, and Ionic Spark + Wit's End. After that you tank up via GA (mandatory) and some combination of OP items like Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Aegis, etc.

I'm interesting in trying Zephyr on her once the patch lands. AD, attack speed, move speed, crit chance, CDR, and tenacity yes pls. The damage is worse than IS but CDR is super awesome on Irelia and can be hard to get. FH+Zephyr gives you 35% and you can get Ninja Tabi every game, and those are still OP as ****.

Tychris1

2012-11-20, 11:18 AM

How does itemization for Irelia work?

Quick guide:

Are you top lane?:

Yes: Build whatever you want and start HUSTLINHUSTLINHUSTLEHUSTLINHUSTLIN

No: Uninstall. Now.

Yes, but against Dunkmaster Darius: Put your blades back in your box, go to tower, and cry.

toasty

2012-11-20, 11:38 AM

Irelia is obviously the best. I mean, come on. Bladesurge. Equilibrium Strike. Irelia enables sick plays and she gets to build fun items. You get to dive people and you perpetually have like 66.7% CC reduction.

Yeahhhhhhhh.
Justice Guides Us.
Balance In All Things.

I've never been a fan of Irelia because I never understood her playstyle. I'm pretty sure I still don't, because I think she's just so versatile she does whatever you want. No wonder Wickd likes her lol.

Regardless, Irelia is better than MF by a mile. Honestly, with the release of Draven, I'm pretty sure there is no reason to pick MF. Graves has better AoE, Draven has a better early-game all-in, Trist has a heal debuff and is actually good late game. MF is fun, but Irelia is probably the most versatile bruiser in the game. There is a reason everyone plays Irelia and she's often permabanned against CLG.EU

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-11-20, 11:52 AM

Regardless, Irelia is better than MF by a mile. Honestly, with the release of Draven, I'm pretty sure there is no reason to pick MF. Graves has better AoE, Draven has a better early-game all-in, Trist has a heal debuff and is actually good late game. MF is fun, but Irelia is probably the most versatile bruiser in the game. There is a reason everyone plays Irelia and she's often permabanned against CLG.EU

There are definitely good reasons to pick MF. Sure, she doesn't fit as well into many team comps, but if you need a high-damage AoE carry in a comp with a lot of CC she will beat out Graves, she has a VERY powerful early harass and trading phase, and her mobility allows you to knock down bot early and really force mid-game with her ability to be everywhere at once. Plus she's still a good carry in her own right, so it's not like picking her is a BAD choice.

That said, she's not Irelia, this is true. Irelia, goddess of "having everything on one kit." Nerf her as much as they want: her kit alone dictates that if her numbers are ANYWHERE near useful, she'll be able to be OP.

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 12:13 PM

Mercs->Triforce->Wit's End->moretanky.

Like Jax except the Wit's End is more mandatory.

You forgot Guardian Angel! You should GA after Triforce. On...like every champion who can build TF in the game. (Slight exaggeration; Ezreal and Corki generally need some more damage afterwards, but just about everybody else...)

Quick guide:

Are you top lane?:

Yes: Build whatever you want and start HUSTLINHUSTLINHUSTLEHUSTLINHUSTLIN

No: Uninstall. Now.

Yes, but against Dunkmaster Darius: Put your blades back in your box, go to tower, and cry.

Hey, I've played botlane Irelia building only swords and I did quite well for myself.

Reynard

2012-11-20, 12:22 PM

You forgot Guardian Angel! You should GA after Triforce. On...like every champion who can build TF in the game.

Well, yeah. I thought that was common knowledge, so I didn't mention it.

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 12:23 PM

Well, yeah. I thought that was common knowledge, so I didn't mention it.

Ah, okay, that's sensible enough.

NineThePuma

2012-11-20, 12:23 PM

So, I was dorking around with the new UI, when suddenly I wanted to check my CDR and hit c and OH GOD LIME GREEEEEEEENNNNNN.

Other than that, I played 5 ARAMs last night on PBE and ended up with Caitlyn twice in a row. What's up with that?

ex cathedra

2012-11-20, 12:24 PM

relia, goddess of "having everything on one kit." Nerf her as much as they want: her kit alone dictates that if her numbers are ANYWHERE near useful, she'll be able to be OP.

Hence "balance in all things." :smallwink: But she doesn't have more "everything" than a lot of other champions, so i get tired of hearing that.

Thrawn183

2012-11-20, 12:35 PM

This just in: Thrawnyboy demands video of someone with PBE access attempting a Karthus jungle with the new jungle AP item.

Also, how well do you think an AD TF would work with the Sword of the Divine?

(I've been away from league for a while, just heard about all this new stuff yesterday.)

NineThePuma

2012-11-20, 12:42 PM

I like the new sheen upgrade on Skarner. Just for "lul, slow"

Maeglin_Dubh

2012-11-20, 12:53 PM

This just in: Thrawnyboy demands video of someone with PBE access attempting a Karthus jungle with the new jungle AP item.

You say that, and my first thought was "St. Viers doesn't jungle Karthus...."

Old habits...

ex cathedra

2012-11-20, 01:20 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-11-20, 01:25 PM

Hence "balance in all things." :smallwink: But she doesn't have more "everything" than a lot of other champions, so i get tired of hearing that.

She doesn't have more of everything, true...but it's the combination of having all of them that's the issue. Physical damage, Magic Damage, True Damage, a dash, sustain, CC, more sustain, CC reduction, natural tankiness, synergy with some of the best items in the game, and a bit of AoE damage + sustain + range on her Ult make her a nightmare to get into any semblance of balance.

NineThePuma

2012-11-20, 01:31 PM

The only person who I think can compete with her for "stupidly versatile" is Jayce.

Forrestfire

2012-11-20, 01:32 PM

I think Nidalee is another contender for "stupidly versatile."

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 01:49 PM

AD TF has zero synergy with new SotD, doesn't he? It might be interesting on Jayce, though, for the three crits at 130% AD.

Pretty sure that Karthus will still be able to jungle, but he might need to bulk up a bit. Spellvamp runes :D

Champ who has a skill that makes your attack speed 2.5 for 3 attacks, getting 100% extra attack speed doesn't seem really enticing. Now, any other AD carry on the other hand...

McDouggal

2012-11-20, 01:51 PM

Just as a curiosity thing: what would you rank as the three most efficient items in Season 2?

I'm lookng for something that has disproportianate (I probably spelled that wrong) effect for the amount of time/money/slots that must be spent building it.

I have to go:
1: Aegis of the Legion (Huge defensive item, plus a bonus for your team, all for just 1920 gold)
2: Banshee's veil (Oh god, this thing can be an absolute nightmare if you're playing a burst mage)
3: Triforce (3 items in one, what's more efficient than that?)

Eldariel

2012-11-20, 02:10 PM

I have to go:
1: Aegis of the Legion (Huge defensive item, plus a bonus for your team, all for just 1920 gold)
2: Banshee's veil (Oh god, this thing can be an absolute nightmare if you're playing a burst mage)
3: Triforce (3 items in one, what's more efficient than that?)

Hum.
1. Guardian Angel: If it weren't for this, Aegis would be up here. Everybody should more or less be building it. 750 HP, 68 Armor & 38 Magic Resist for 2600gp combined with the quirky interactions of the respawning, it's just ridiculous.
2. Phage: This item is so insanely good on so insanely many champions, it has superb stats for its cost (allowing skipping Doran's with a decent start if building this), it's easy to build and the slow is both, absolutely crucial and incredibly powerful on so many champs from kiters like Ezreal to champs who need to stick to the enemy like Shen.
3. Randuin's Omen: It does everything; health, armor, CDR, chasing slow, attack speed slow, slows people attacking you, builds out of a gold/10 item, etc. It's the other half to Phage for any chasing champ and it's half of what's keeping AD carries in check right now (kinda wanna list Frozen Heart too, especially since it's one of the few good mana items in the game and provides insane amounts of CDR, but Randuin is more applicable and the effect is stronger as is the passive).

Others that should be up there: Aegis of the Legion, Shurelya's Reverie, Frozen Heart, Unholy Grail, Zhonya's Hourglass, Abyssal Scepter, Trinity Force, The Bloodthirster, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, Quicksilver Sash, Ninja Tabi.