League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[Eldariel]

Do you have a champion who it's almost unfair to break out, since you're so good with that champ?

Well, last season I banned the following champions from myself in Ranked use:
Anivia
Lee Sin
Cassiopeia
Ahri
Janna
Vayne
Ezreal
Jarvan

[toasty]

Do you have a champion who it's almost unfair to break out, since you're so good with that champ?

Well my Mundo winrate this season is now 90% after eleven games. However, I think this is because I'm still at 1330 or something like that after like 50 games. I peaked at 1466 last season, but I mostly played top lane and I think I might have to give up that role as too hard, or rather, too hard to carry without playing champions I don't exactly like playing, namely assassins. Irelia is alright but I can't be bothered to master her. Jax seems boring.

So I'm playing Mundo.

[ex cathedra]

Since ALTERNATE had to drop out of IPL 5, the team that came in second at the IPL qualifiers is going instead.

That's Fnatic.

yisssssssssss. :D

[Eldariel]

Since ALTERNATE had to drop out of IPL 5, the team that came in second at the IPL qualifiers is going instead.

That's Fnatic.

yisssssssssss. :D

****. Yeah. I mean, nothing against ALTERNATE but goshdarnit, Fnatic is beastly right now.

[ChaosOS]

Well my Mundo winrate this season is now 90% after eleven games. However, I think this is because I'm still at 1330 or something like that after like 50 games. I peaked at 1466 last season, but I mostly played top lane and I think I might have to give up that role as too hard, or rather, too hard to carry without playing champions I don't exactly like playing, namely assassins. Irelia is alright but I can't be bothered to master her. Jax seems boring.

So I'm playing Mundo.

Who did you play last season in top lane that you feel can't carry?

[TheShrike]

I just play Olaf and constantly beat up the enemy jungler whenever I have a chance.

EDIT: I do that when I jungle, too. I play a lot of Olaf, when I can get away with it.

[Math_Mage]

Who did you play last season in top lane that you feel can't carry?

Toasty used to main Gangplank. Now he, well, doesn't.

[Reinboom]

So this has appeared on reddit. (http://s3.microtony.com/)

So, there are a ton of changes we haven't been told about if this is accurate.

Thank you for showing me this! Trying to contact him now.
It's impressive how quickly my items.json was utilized.

[toasty]

Who did you play last season in top lane that you feel can't carry?

Warwick, Gangplank and Nunu (Nunu Season 1).

Warwick was the first champion I played and Season 1 I had a 64% winrate with him after like 100 games with him. If all I played was Warwick Season 1 I would have been silver. Sadly, I was dumb and didn't understand how important it was to play one single champion until your eyes bleed.

Nunu was kinda funny because I started using him when he was still Stealth OP. I read Oddone's guide and won like 14 games in a row. I stopped playing him afterwards because I felt that people learned how to play against him, the fact of the matter was I used him as a one trick pony (I ran the same play every game) because I was a bad player. If I had been like ... everyone else I could have just kept playing Nunu and gotten better at the hero. Again: If I dedicated myself to Nunu I would have been silver that season.

Gangplank is a little different. I always liked him, but never played him because he sucked. Season 2 they buffed him and I mastered him. Actually I think Gangplank is fine right now, he just needs the right matchup and you can't pick him like a standard bruiser. This is the chief problem with Solo Queue: being innovative is solo queue is difficult. Gangplank works great if you have a higher DPS AD carry or want to run a protective comp. The problem is you have to also want to split push a fair amount, as GP doesn't like teamfighting till late, he's like Nasus in this regard. Another problem is that GP really is built being a bruiser so he's never going to be a maintank. Everyone who rushes warmogs on him should go die in a pit.

I'm HOPING Season 3 items make him more viable. I'm going to see how it works as a solo top. I know SV likes him as a jungler if you can get TF. I'm unsure however.

As a rule: I play tanky heroes. Looking at Mundo, I see a lot of similarities between him and Warwick, actually. Their tanky and they live through fights through passive regen combined with tanky builds. They don't actually need damage items because their damage scaling is entire percentile (Warwick Q, Mundo Q) or just stupidly high (MUNDO EVERYTHING).

edit: let me mention I think the reason I do so well with Mundo is because his base damages are high enough, currently, that he can carry early-mid game and become enough of a meatshield he can defend his real carries late game. Also, their is an old adage that if you want to carry you jungle, and by jungle, people really meant roam. Its really hard to play tanks middle, which is the easiest roaming lane, so I jungle. I like top lane because I like playing tanks and top lane heroes and I enjoy 1v1, but top lane is really hard to carry from, especially seeing as the jungler basically wins top lane anyways.

Mundo's advantage over Warwick is that he isn't useless as **** before level 6.

[Winthur]

Warwick, Gangplank and Nunu (Nunu Season 1).

Warwick was the first champion I played and Season 1 I had a 64% winrate with him after like 100 games with him. If all I played was Warwick Season 1 I would have been silver. Sadly, I was dumb and didn't understand how important it was to play one single champion until your eyes bleed.

I'm trying to make Warwick work in the top lane and jungle. In top lane about the only thing I haven't tried was going for some really specific rune setups like Health regen quints. It's like, you want mana regen for sustain, but if you have mana regen on runes then you lose out on resistances and then you lose lane anyway. :smallannoyed:

In jungle I think that it might be cool to go something like 9/0/21, similarly to Olaf. More Smite, more GG. Plus +CDR% (great on Warwick), +5% XP (and Sage) for faster level 6. Some bonus gold/10 for flavor. Magic penetration on offense masteries. You don't need defense masteries in order not to die in the jungle. Lends itself to a decent late game it seems.

[ChaosOS]

WW sustains in lane pre-6, then goes and roams with an insane ult post-6. WW has higher carry potential than mundo because suppression ganks on mid are insane. There's a reason malz is scary as hell as a duelist in mid.

[Winthur]

It's really hard to push the lane out with WW - so roaming potential is toned down - and you are extremely damn screwed by ranged laners such as Teemo. His sustain really sucks early on too. He can't support your jungler in ganks too well.

Overall I'm really hard-pressed to make him work because I adore him but it really seems like only s0az can make him work.

[Godskook]

In jungle I think that it might be cool to go something like 9/0/21, similarly to Olaf. More Smite, more GG. Plus +CDR% (great on Warwick), +5% XP (and Sage) for faster level 6. Some bonus gold/10 for flavor. Magic penetration on offense masteries. You don't need defense masteries in order not to die in the jungle. Lends itself to a decent late game it seems.

If your S2 jungle page isn't incorporating 11 Defense for Bladed Armor and Indomitable, you're not doing it right. Nothing in any other tree will give you as much benefit early game as 11 defense will. After that, you've got options. I'm a big fan of Runic Affinity, and Awareness is good enough on WW that I can see running 19 Utility.

Also, if you really want to hit lvl 6 before being relevant to the team, try his red path. He's perfectly safe that way, it messes everyone up since he's not where a blue path jungler is supposed to be, like, ever, and the timing is perfect. Red, lvl 6, and near mid.

[Winthur]

If your S2 jungle page isn't incorporating 11 Defense for Bladed Armor and Indomitable, you're not doing it right. Nothing in any other tree will give you as much benefit early game as 11 defense will. After that, you've got options. I'm a big fan of Runic Affinity, and Awareness is good enough on WW that I can see running 19 Utility.

WW doesn't need Indomitable, and I don't need early game benefits other than getting to level 6, jungle creeps are not killing me, not even close to that. I found you don't need any defense masteries to clear the jungle at all, just Attack Speed reds and Armor yellows (which you should be running on jungle WW anyway). Bladed Armor I can see for bonus damage against creeps, but really my idea is to help out WW gain XP towards level 6 while giving him some late game goodies (lower cooldown on Flash, +CDR, 10% Magic Penetration). With how I play WW, I pretty much assemble pieces of Exodia until level 6 at which point I just gank every lane every ult cooldown (Warwick's ganks on mid lane post level 6 are one reason to pick him) so I stay in my jungle most of the time. I make up for the lack of defense masteries by tanking up early.

[Godskook]

1.Except Indomitable is just OP all game long, and especially so on resist+healing tanks, like WW tends to build. Lower CD on Flash is ok, but I'm not sure its worth it, when WW really doesn't plan to run away from a fight and also really doesn't need Flash to initiate one either.

2.CDR is really good on WW, but in S2, its painfully easy to itemize on junglers(Gp5s OP), to the point that putting CDR in your masteries tends to waste stats late game with the kind of items WW would probably buy(Spirit Visage, Frozen Heart, Omen, Zeke's if he wants an Aura and if he's following standard jungler meta, Shurelya's are all really good). If your item build isn't getting at least 30% CDR in the items, I guess, but its just so easy, I don't see when it wouldn't happen myself.

[Winthur]

1.Except Indomitable is just OP all game long, and especially so on resist+healing tanks, like WW tends to build. Lower CD on Flash is ok, but I'm not sure its worth it, when WW really doesn't plan to run away from a fight and also really doesn't need Flash to initiate one either.

It's 2 points less damage from everything, you sure that I couldn't just run 0/9/21 for additional resistances and achieve a similar result? Lower CD on Flash allows for more escapes and more plays, particularly in low-mid Elo where catching someone off-guard might happen. One clutch Flash->Ult can turn a game around. Smite is on lower cooldown too, helping clear the jungle.


2.CDR is really good on WW, but in S2, its painfully easy to itemize on junglers(Gp5s OP), to the point that putting CDR in your masteries tends to waste stats late game with the kind of items WW would probably buy(Spirit Visage, Frozen Heart, Omen, Zeke's if he wants an Aura and if he's following standard jungler meta, Shurelya's are all really good). If your item build isn't getting at least 30% CDR in the items, I guess, but its just so easy, I don't see when it wouldn't happen myself.

I don't find the items that build from Gp/10 a great example because Shurelya doesn't feel like it offers enough to Warwick (it's health, and health < resistances on Warwick; I'd rather get something with multiplicative scaling like Sunfire for instance; movement speed buff is great obviously, though Warwick still has Blood Scent), and Randuin is only 5% CDR. Even if I "waste" CDR in the late game, it doesn't matter because until I get to that late game CDR I still can benefit all game long from having 10% CDR. How is that bad?

[toasty]

WW sustains in lane pre-6, then goes and roams with an insane ult post-6. WW has higher carry potential than mundo because suppression ganks on mid are insane. There's a reason malz is scary as hell as a duelist in mid.

No because Warwick sucks pre-six to the point where you should pick someone else. Mundo v. WW Warick gets Blue if Mundo's team is *****, but Mundo get's Warwicks 1st Red, 2nd Red and 2nd blue NP. He can probably also steal stuff like wraiths 1-3 times pretty easily.

Warwick's tankiness is actually strictly worse since it relies on doing massive damage with his Q AND is shut down by ignite. Mundo presses R and becomes immortal.

[McDouggal]

Blitz/Darius toplane. Could it work? I think so.

EDIT: Realized I gave no reasons. It would require a team that was OK with having 1 in bot/no jungle, put a Blitz Q/E combo and then a Darius pull would force a flash or die... EVERY 20 SECONDS. Darius provides damage.

[tyckspoon]

Blitz/Darius toplane. Could it work? I think so.

EDIT: Realized I gave no reasons. It would require a team that was OK with having 1 in bot/no jungle, put a Blitz Q/E combo and then a Darius pull would force a flash or die... EVERY 20 SECONDS. Darius provides damage.

Frankly Blitz's particular CC combo is so hilariously overpowered that he works with pretty much everybody who can provide A: a little extra CC or B: burst damage. And like 80% of the champs in the game can give at least one of those things.

Edit: Which means the question isn't "Does Blitz work with X", because the answer to that is probably "well, yes, of course"- the question is "Where does your team get the most advantage by having Blitz support?" The traditional answer is Bot, in giving your carry the advantage over the opposing carry, but I think there's a pretty good argument to be made for top if you have a good toplaner to take advantage of it.

[ChaosOS]

No because Warwick sucks pre-six to the point where you should pick someone else. Mundo v. WW Warick gets Blue if Mundo's team is *****, but Mundo get's Warwicks 1st Red, 2nd Red and 2nd blue NP. He can probably also steal stuff like wraiths 1-3 times pretty easily.

Warwick's tankiness is actually strictly worse since it relies on doing massive damage with his Q AND is shut down by ignite. Mundo presses R and becomes immortal.

1. We're talking about lanewick, so first paragraph is irrelevant b/c it's talking about junglewick and jungle mundo

WW may not be as tanky in teamfights, but you're not going to tell me the ability to catch carries who wander too far out, which is relatively common in solo que, is not an advantageous ability?

[Postmodernist]

Hi! I'm new to this thread, though not to the forum. I'm currently level 28 in LoL. My LoL forum name and call sign are, shockingly enough, Postmodernist. I'm trying to develop a solid play style right now, but I tend to like Wukong on top, Diana at mid, Lulu for support, and Tristana for ADC. I have yet to attempt a jungler.

Any advice for someone who is about to hit 30? I'm starting to spend my IC exclusively on runes, and am about halfway through all of them.

[ChaosOS]

Hi! I'm new to this thread, though not to the forum. I'm currently level 28 in LoL. My LoL forum name and call sign are, shockingly enough, Postmodernist. I'm trying to develop a solid play style right now, but I tend to like Wukong on top, Diana at mid, Lulu for support, and Tristana for ADC. I have yet to attempt a jungler.

Any advice for someone who is about to hit 30? I'm starting to spend my IC exclusively on runes, and am about halfway through all of them.

What runes are you buying? Certain runes are good, and others are pretty useless.

[TechnOkami]

What runes are you buying? Certain runes are good, and others are pretty useless.

I think it'd be easier to just tell him what runes he should be buying, and why.

Do you stick with those four, or do you play other champions too?

[Silverraptor]

So, what should I do on TT when I'm playing Olaf and the enemy team is stacking health to counter me? Especially a team was enough cc to zone the ad carry and the ap caster is incompetent? Or is it pretty much over at that point?

[NineThePuma]

So, what should I do on TT when I'm playing Olaf and the enemy team is stacking health to counter me? Especially a team was enough cc to zone the ad carry and the ap caster is incompetent? Or is it pretty much over at that point?

Blade of the ruined king is a nice big "**** you" to health stackers, I've found.

[Postmodernist]

What runes are you buying? Certain runes are good, and others are pretty useless.

Right now I have full armor penetration marks. I'm nearly done with full flat armor seals. I don't have any glyphs yet, but I understand that magic resistance is a common choice. Not sure about my quintessences, but I'm contemplating movement speed. These will be a general utility set of runes, since I'll probably be using them with most of my champions until I have sufficient IP to customize more thoroughly. While this build probably favors physical damaging types, I've had good luck with it so far.


I think it'd be easier to just tell him what runes he should be buying, and why.

Do you stick with those four, or do you play other champions too?

I do not, though they're probably my primaries. I own: Alistar, Ashe, Diana, Gangplank, Garen, Kayle, Lulu, Master Yi, Ryze, Shaco, Sivir, Soraka, Teemo, Tristana, Wukong, Xin Zhao. I also generally try out as many of the weekly free champs as possible.

Any more advice before I enter what seems to be referred to as "ELO hell?"

[TFT]

Right now I have full armor penetration marks. I'm nearly done with full flat armor seals. I don't have any glyphs yet, but I understand that magic resistance is a common choice. Not sure about my quintessences, but I'm contemplating movement speed. These will be a general utility set of runes, since I'll probably be using them with most of my champions until I have sufficient IP to customize more thoroughly. While this build probably favors physical damaging types, I've had good luck with it so far.



I do not, though they're probably my primaries. I own: Alistar, Ashe, Diana, Gangplank, Garen, Kayle, Lulu, Master Yi, Ryze, Shaco, Sivir, Soraka, Teemo, Tristana, Wukong, Xin Zhao. I also generally try out as many of the weekly free champs as possible.

Any more advice before I enter what seems to be referred to as "ELO hell?"


Wait another month or so at least. While everyone is excited to start solo queue as soon as they reach 30, most players aren't ready and will just drop below 1200 because they can't carry. Make sure you have all of your runepages ready, at least one role you are confident you can carry every game in, and most importantly have someone else who is above like 1300 feel you're ready to do it. Otherwise, you're just going to get frustrated after you lose your first few games.

That's the advice I wish I first got when I started solo queue, so it's the advice I'm giving.

[tyckspoon]

Right now I have full armor penetration marks. I'm nearly done with full flat armor seals. I don't have any glyphs yet, but I understand that magic resistance is a common choice. Not sure about my quintessences, but I'm contemplating movement speed. These will be a general utility set of runes, since I'll probably be using them with most of my champions until I have sufficient IP to customize more thoroughly. While this build probably favors physical damaging types, I've had good luck with it so far.


If you intend to use the same page for everybody for a while, I'd go AD marks over Armor Penetration; they make it noticeably easier to last-hit, which is a benefit you can enjoy on all laning champs whereas AP/magic-damage dealing champs get no use from Arm. Pen. Still, since it's what you've already got, you'll live until you can at least diversify into 'Generic AP page' (generally M.Pen/Mana Regen/Mresist or AP) and 'Generic AD Page' (basically what you already have.)


Any more advice before I enter what seems to be referred to as "ELO hell?"

Yes. Don't. The easiest way to get yourself into "ELO hell" is to attempt to play Ranked before you're actually ready to. If you tank your placement matches (those first 10, when you experience huge ELO swings as the system attempts to rapid-sort you into your approximate correct ELO band) you'll find yourself in very low ELOs, playing against and with people who are really quite bad at the game. This will make it much harder for you to get better, and if you do get better (such as by practicing with and observing some of the fine folk here who know whatof they do) you have to do a *lot* of work to raise yourself back to levels where the players are, if not exactly good, at least not actively terrible.

[Postmodernist]

Thanks for the stupendous advice. I'll hold off until my rune pages are ready and I'm confident I can actually get into competitive play. Though I'm a bit disappointed that my IP grind will still continue, I'm glad to discover that it's all for an excellent reason. I greatly appreciate it!

[TheShrike]

1. We're talking about lanewick

Toasty has a bad habit of quoting the wrong posts, but I think he was referring to the multiple posts of jungle WW discussion going on just above.

[Renegade Paladin]

Are any of you Bethor Kookalian? I got a friend request in game out of the blue and have no idea who it is.

[NineThePuma]

That'd be Godskook. He's a pretty okay guy.

[9mm]

So I've reached a conclusion during my quest to learn assassins: always buy mobility boots. I feel the speed increase to catch opponents is worth more than any pen or CDR. Am I making a preference decision or going crazy trying to compensate for mistakes.?

[Tychris1]

While movement boots are good, most assassins have some sort of gap closer to get to their targets anyway. CDR and Pen mean you either kill the person faster (And thus the enemy closes less distance thus you need less movement) or you can cast abilities faster (Such as your gap closer, which will cover the disrance lost from your lack of movement) which will do more damage and thus kill the opponet faster (See Pen).

Atleast that's my rationale.

And yep, Godskook = Bethor. Pretty okay guy.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

While movement boots are good, most assassins have some sort of gap closer to get to their targets anyway. CDR and Pen mean you either kill the person faster (And thus the enemy closes less distance thus you need less movement) or you can cast abilities faster (Such as your gap closer, which will cover the disrance lost from your lack of movement) which will do more damage and thus kill the opponet faster (See Pen).

Atleast that's my rationale.

I like Boots of Mobility on a few assassins: usually those with only one gap-closer, or jungling assassins that I want as many ganks as possible with. This basically means Talon, Rengar, Evelynn, and Shaco, and SOMETIMES Kat if I'm feeling crazy. On most other assassins I prefer boots that will let me actually fight a bit more: usually Pen or Merc's. CDR isn't really a particularly useful Assassin stat, unless you already have absurdly low cooldowns (Rengar, Zed, and so forth), since you'll usually only get 1 combo off even with the extra CDR, and, if you're playing it right, your target should be dead.

Basically, more mobility is never a bad option, but you only really want it if A: you HAVE to move across the map quickly to get kills (Rengar is great at this: likewise Shaco) or B: if you absolutely have to save your gap-closers for finishing moves or to avoid blowing a flash or other escape move.

[Godskook]

Are any of you Bethor Kookalian? I got a friend request in game out of the blue and have no idea who it is.

Y'know, you could've just accepted and asked him. I hear he's a pretty okay guy. Had to, after two endorsements.


So I've reached a conclusion during my quest to learn assassins: always buy mobility boots. I feel the speed increase to catch opponents is worth more than any pen or CDR. Am I making a preference decision or going crazy trying to compensate for mistakes.?

Depends on the 'zoom' of your goal, so to speak. If its map-wide(split-pushing squishy loners or ganking presence), you're not crazy, at the very least. On a more local level, AP assassins like Fizz, Diana and Akali would be better served with either Merc's(for Tenacity) or Sorcs.

[McDouggal]

What is the most annoying champion to play against? (Must have something to read in the morning...)

Most annoying for me? Alistar. Is it just me, or does he hard counter all the supports that I have :'(

[toasty]

Toasty has a bad habit of quoting the wrong posts, but I think he was referring to the multiple posts of jungle WW discussion going on just above.

Apparently I do. :smallredface:


1. We're talking about lanewick, so first paragraph is irrelevant b/c it's talking about junglewick and jungle mundo

WW may not be as tanky in teamfights, but you're not going to tell me the ability to catch carries who wander too far out, which is relatively common in solo que, is not an advantageous ability?

Mundo can catch people. His W makes him immune to CC (W+Mercs+Defense Mastery People. THINK ABOUT IT). His ult makes him fast. His q makes people slow. You should probably just take red buff because you're gonna carry. I mean I haven't played warwick much in a long time, but right now I'd argue Mundo does more damage and is tankier which means almost literally Mundo is the better hero in every way imagineable. Except Mid-game. Warwick probably has a stronger midgame. But his early game is so terrible . . .

[tyckspoon]

What is the most annoying champion to play against? (Must have something to read in the morning...)


Fiddles. Because 3 second point-and-click hard CC. Cow is also kind of annoying, if only because it feels like his skills gain about a hundred units of range when other people play him than they have when I play him. (Also, Cow vs. Cow is one of the most hilariously futile matchups.)

[ChaosOS]

What is the most annoying champion to play against? (Must have something to read in the morning...)

Most annoying for me? Alistar. Is it just me, or does he hard counter all the supports that I have :'(

Teemo. Playing dominion, it's literally a teemo on every single team. It's impossible to walk through the jungle without losing half your health to a shroom unless you have seriously invested in MR because of how stupidly strong Blackfire Torch is. I am SO glad it's being nerfed next patch.

[Godskook]

What is the most annoying champion to play against? (Must have something to read in the morning...)

Most annoying for me? Alistar. Is it just me, or does he hard counter all the supports that I have :'(

Most annoying, I'd say Draven. He hurts like hell, and every. single. time. I play against one, he catches all the axes, every time. Sure, he's weak to CC, but I swear, that never happens in practice at my normal Elo(which I'm pretty sure is lower than my ranked Elo).


but right now I'd argue Mundo does more damage and is tankier which means almost literally Mundo is the better hero in every way imagineable.

Mundo has zero hard CC, WW has suppression. I mean, think about it. Of those two, which one is actually going to be stop people from flashing away?

Mundo is the stronger jungler right now, but he doesn't fulfill the same roles as Warwick does, so if you actually need Warwick's role, Mundo is a horrible substitute.

[toasty]

Mundo has zero hard CC, WW has suppression. I mean, think about it. Of those two, which one is actually going to be stop people from flashing away?

Flash is good, yes, and flashing over walls is rather annoying. But let me say this again:
Mundo has red buff, Q spam, ult and maybe even Exhaust. You aren't getting away from him. And even if you are, he will chase you forever because he's Mundo and isn't easily kited. Warwick ults and if someone does go low enough in HP then he has a hard time doing anything but qing whoever is near him, not zoning the carries.

I admit Warwick is good and that he technically has stronger engage, but I've found, ESPECIALLY in my elo, that just walking up to someone usually makes them attack you. Especially under tower. :smallbiggrin:

[u-gotNOgame]

Flash is good, yes, and flashing over walls is rather annoying. But let me say this again:
Mundo has red buff, Q spam, ult and maybe even Exhaust. You aren't getting away from him. And even if you are, he will chase you forever because he's Mundo and isn't easily kited. Warwick ults and if someone does go low enough in HP then he has a hard time doing anything but qing whoever is near him, not zoning the carries.

I admit Warwick is good and that he technically has stronger engage, but I've found, ESPECIALLY in my elo, that just walking up to someone usually makes them attack you. Especially under tower. :smallbiggrin:

Mundo is really squishy pre 6(11 really) before he gets any items. Sure he turns into the final raid boss but he requires a lot of amp up time. Really he shouldn't be ganking much at all unless the enemy lanes are being dumb; because, if you miss a clever he's not really that good of a chaser, and every second he spends in a lane is a second he's not farming his/the enemy's jungle. He became super popular around the time that counter jungling became huge ( M5 at IEM Hannover 2011 IIRC) but that was before lane mechanics really became "perfect" in some ways and people realized that every lane was a snowball lane. That's why gank oriented junglers are big now (Mao, Lee Sin, Skarner). Everyone of those gank better than mundo and have clear times that are close to mundo's, they also offer utility that mudno doesn't (Mostly in the way of hard initiation) which is why he's sort of fallen out of favor.

Picking a jungler that is not gank oriented really means that your lanes have to play safe because as a jungler you're playing to put the other jungler behind and to a lesser extent pressure lanes. That doesn't happen if the enemy is first blooding top lane and double killing bot lane. Maintaining jungle/objective control is a full time job and it means that you have to spend less time actually showing yourself on the map in the lanes. It means "enemy jungler top?" "time to take dragon/his wraithes/ check his buffs/ push towers" not "time to go countergank".

That being said, Red buff + exhaust makes any jungler deadly if you can force their defensive summoner early.

-UGNG

[Eldariel]

So, what should I do on TT when I'm playing Olaf and the enemy team is stacking health to counter me? Especially a team was enough cc to zone the ad carry and the ap caster is incompetent? Or is it pretty much over at that point?

I'd build normal; Pillager > Tanky. If they're building Health to counter Reckless Swing, they're leaving themselves open to Undertow which combined with your inherent ArPen from ult, Pillager & Masteries and your W means you can probably Lifesteal/Spellvamp for enough that it damn well doesn't matter what they do.

Depends on the exact opponents, of course. I could see Blade but Olaf isn't really an autoattacker so much of the potential is lost.

[toasty]

@Mundo:

Mundo probably doesn't fit the current "meta" as junglers go, I agree. He's too much of a carry jungler who needs to farm, this is true. I don't even think I'd want to play him so much the way I do in competative play.

The thing is... I click with Mundo. I know how to jungle him and I have been outplaying junglers for a while now. I think the last game I played the enemy jungler got 2-3 buffs the entire game. (To be fair my olaf was pretty damn good, but still, it was awesome).

Something else to consider though: I think one of my complaints about a hero like Warwick vs Mundo is that, in an early skirmish, even assuming Warwick gets into the fight, he still doesn't do a whole lot of damage. I mean, his autos hurt enough and his W is a decent steroid, but what really makes WW deadly is when he can max his Q and do the whole "ult someone and kill them with onhit effects and Q spam." Mundo never has that problem. So you can countergank, like, its not that hard to pull off a decent counter gank if you know how to predict people and you have even just 2 well placed deep wards (like, honestly, warding wraith camps is so amazingly useful oh my god). A final thing to consider is that while Mundo is mostly not the greatest ganker you can always have a roam heavy middle that supports Mundo.

edit: I'm really tired and this post probably doesn't do the topic justice. The reason I play mundo is because I play mundo. if I have a high winrate I don't question it, I go with it.

[Dante & Vergil]

Man I've been having an insane time with Varus this past month. His Q is just awesome, cause it allows me to sit back and harass from a safer distance, and oh man, ever since the buffs to his ult it always seems to be grabbing more than 1 champ for me, which is awesome. With all this in my mind, I was wondering what other people thought of Varus, and wanted to ask people how to build him with the new items of season 3 approaching?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Runaan's Hurricane would be interesting on Varus if it builds W stacks on multiple targets (no idea if it does). Otherwise I don't think he'll be too different.

[Cogwheel]

Runaan's Hurricane would be interesting on Varus if it builds W stacks on multiple targets (no idea if it does). Otherwise I don't think he'll be too different.

It does. This was even one of the examples used, I believe.

[Zinc]

Enough lurking, time for me to finally post.

I'm on NA servers, username is "El Jaun Zinco" (not a typo). Been playing since the release of Udyr, so abou 2010, and not stopped since. I have drifted from tole to role over the years enough times to say that I am comfortable playing in all of the roles to a competant level. My favourite champions are GP, Sion, Janna, Fiddlesticks (as a support), Nautilaus, Graves and recently, Shen. I have been active on the mumble server over the past few months.

Introductions out of the way, I have this to ask: Who is your favourite less-conventional support, if any?

My personal favourite is Fiddlesticks, followed closely by GP. Fiddle provides so much lane pressure from his Dark Wind and his Terrify, and his teamfighting isn't awful early-mid game. GP is similar, but he has a stronger teamfight with a more shaky lane-phase. He really requires your ADC to know what you are thinking before you act, else they both get punished hard.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Introductions out of the way, I have this to ask: Who is your favourite less-conventional support, if any?

I'd say Zyra, but she's commonly accepted these days.

Speaking for Mario and myself: Rengar. It's less "support" and more "Kill Lane Alpha," but a Rengar in bot lane has some decent sustain, some half-decent CC with his bolas, and almost unparalleled zoning: a Rengar in the bush is incentive to NEVER go near it, especially if he has 4 stacks of Fury. If the enemy carry or support is at all squishy, Rengar + any offensive carry (Draven, Vayne, Graves, and Trist are all great with him) is basically a free kill whenever they come close.

Cassiopeia is similar: with decent mana regen, she can zone the enemy team basically indefinitely, which is awesome. There's a snake in the bush! Garen can also zone very well: his silence + spin + his ability to run into the bush and heal up are really strong if you can force your opponent back a little bit to gain that bush control. Pantheon functions like Rengar, but he trades immense bush control and repeated engages for better harass.

[Lix Lorn]

What is the most annoying champion to play against? (Must have something to read in the morning...)

Most annoying for me? Alistar. Is it just me, or does he hard counter all the supports that I have :'(
Alistar ruins aggressive kill lanes, and I don't really know how to do any othe rkind.
Blitzcrank is similar but squishier. I can win against him, sometimes, but he changes the entire dynamic.
Kassadin. Just... @#%£ Kassadin.
And Jayce. If I meet Jayce top, I lose. Whatever champion I play, he has better everything than I do.

[Zinc]

Speaking for Mario and myself: Rengar. It's less "support" and more "Kill Lane Alpha," but a Rengar in bot lane has some decent sustain, some half-decent CC with his bolas, and almost unparalleled zoning: a Rengar in the bush is incentive to NEVER go near it, especially if he has 4 stacks of Fury. If the enemy carry or support is at all squishy, Rengar + any offensive carry (Draven, Vayne, Graves, and Trist are all great with him) is basically a free kill whenever they come close.

Cassiopeia is similar: with decent mana regen, she can zone the enemy team basically indefinitely, which is awesome. There's a snake in the bush! Garen can also zone very well: his silence + spin + his ability to run into the bush and heal up are really strong if you can force your opponent back a little bit to gain that bush control. Pantheon functions like Rengar, but he trades immense bush control and repeated engages for better harass.

Not a fan of Pantheon support since if he doesn't force a kill early, he had no presence in the mid game and his lare game was already bellow par.

Garen really lacks ability to peel for his ADC in lane beyond exhaust, but I can see him working in a hyper aggressive lane when you have extensive warding.

I never really thought about Cassiopeia as a support until now, and the more I think about it the more I can see it working. Her ability to peel in lane is still unreliable, but base damages are good alongside with solid teamfighting with that ult and sustained damage. Would like to try it someday.

As for Rengar, I am yet to experience it. If either Mario or Yourself could use it with me one day, I'll give it a look.

[Forrestfire]

I'm a fan of support Veigar, if only for the giant stun. Just let him last-hit a single minion out of each wave with his Q.


Cassiopeia is similar: with decent mana regen, she can zone the enemy team basically indefinitely, which is awesome. There's a snake in the bush!

All I could think was this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAbv7KlUQSQ)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Not a fan of Pantheon support since if he doesn't force a kill early, he had no presence in the mid game and his lare game was already bellow par.

Well, yes. Panth really needs certain carries: Grave and Vayne can apply enough damage to force kills. But he is unreliable.


Garen really lacks ability to peel for his ADC in lane beyond exhaust, but I can see him working in a hyper aggressive lane when you have extensive warding.

This is where you use him, yes.


I never really thought about Cassiopeia as a support until now, and the more I think about it the more I can see it working. Her ability to peel in lane is still unreliable, but base damages are good alongside with solid teamfighting with that ult and sustained damage. Would like to try it someday.

Yeah...she has no peeling power whatsoever (aside from a small slow), but her zone-control is REALLY strong, and people often think twice about chasing through poison.


As for Rengar, I am yet to experience it. If either Mario or Yourself could use it with me one day, I'll give it a look.

Sure. Be warned though...a Rengar lane gets kills wherever it can, so be prepared to A: be aggressive, and B: not necessarily get the kills yourself. When BOTH bot laners scale incredibly well off kills, you just want as many of them as you can get.

[Zinc]

Sure. Be warned though...a Rengar lane gets kills wherever it can, so be prepared to A: be aggressive, and B: not necessarily get the kills yourself. When BOTH bot laners scale incredibly well off kills, you just want as many of them as you can get.

Kills are kills, regardless who they are on. The Krepo/Yellowpete lane shows this is fine even with worse scaling supports, so I am perfectly happy to share kills with Rengar.

[PersonMan]

Introductions out of the way, I have this to ask: Who is your favourite less-conventional support, if any?

LeBlanc. Starting at level 2, you can aggressively take control of your bushes (they all belong to you, always) and use Q+W (later QWE) to say "Hi there, enemy ADC, how's full HP treating you? Bad? Oh, well, no problem, lemme take that nasty HP away. Bye! See you in ~14 seconds!" Due to her high base damage and good ratios, you do good damage even with only Kage's. I generally go Philo/Kage's/Sorc/Abyssal, going into Zhonya's/Warmog's/Derpcap (selling Philo Stone and eventually Kage's) later. I call it "Tankblanc".

I've occasionally considered Supporten (that is, Support Kennen), since he has good "bushcamp, harass enemy" potential and can do well with only a handful of core items.

I think I might play others every now and then, but I can't think of 'em.

[toasty]

Kills are kills, regardless who they are on. The Krepo/Yellowpete lane shows this is fine even with worse scaling supports, so I am perfectly happy to share kills with Rengar.

This is only moderately true. Kills ARE kills but certain comps really want the gold distributed towards heroes with the best late game. This is why ADs get gold and supports don't. ADs scale really well with gold.

So does Rengar, and the fact that people still play squishy support heroes like Sona means he's probably a decent troll-pick support in less-serious games. I've done it and it's actually pretty fun because you can 1-shot sona if you get ahead enough.

However, the truth is its really not the safest strategy and in general you're better off jungling him or running him top lane.

Final thought: I'm so glad they are removing HoG. I'm so sick and tired of seeing every jungler in competative play build the same regardless of circumstance. I think Iwilldominate built the same build of Boots+2 gold/10 and Aegis on every hero he plays now. Dominate is playing Rengar and Hecarim, balls-deep all-in heroes who... really don't want Gold/10 (Aegis is still OP though).

[PersonMan]

Just played Soraka and got reminded of why I don't like playing ADCs.

Enemy Vayne/Nunu charge me and kill me, Ashe does 0 damage...uff.

Still, ended the game 5/2.

We had 7 kills in total.

[Silverraptor]

LeBlanc. Starting at level 2, you can aggressively take control of your bushes (they all belong to you, always) and use Q+W (later QWE) to say "Hi there, enemy ADC, how's full HP treating you? Bad? Oh, well, no problem, lemme take that nasty HP away. Bye! See you in ~14 seconds!" Due to her high base damage and good ratios, you do good damage even with only Kage's. I generally go Philo/Kage's/Sorc/Abyssal, going into Zhonya's/Warmog's/Derpcap (selling Philo Stone and eventually Kage's) later. I call it "Tankblanc".

I've occasionally considered Supporten (that is, Support Kennen), since he has good "bushcamp, harass enemy" potential and can do well with only a handful of core items.

I think I might play others every now and then, but I can't think of 'em.

For my next trick, I'll make their lifebar disappear. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbvQBtdRquU)

[Zinc]

However, the truth is its really not the safest strategy and in general you're better off jungling him or running him top lane.

I would never play this lane if I were going to aim for a safe strategy. I'd play it as an all in, do-or-die lane. I normally don't aim for that, but nonetheless it can be very fun to play those lanes now and then to break the monotony of Ez/Sona vs Taric/Graves.

Fiddlesticks I'd play in a serious lane, since he works well in one; whereas GP (my other unconventional support) is less serious but still competitive. The Rengar lane is clearly a kill lane, where it doesn't matter that the "support" is getting SOME of the kills, so long as the opponent is dead and the AD carry gets to free farm. I used to play support Singed for a friend when he played Graves. Worked a charm, but that by no means says the the character is best suited to that position.

[Forrestfire]

A bit off-topic, but I felt like sharing this:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee26/ustaaz/leaguelanes.jpg

[MCerberus]

I'd like to point out that if you like giggling inside of a bush, you can't beat support Voli

[PersonMan]

To be honest, the 'support' picture should only be that if you have bad supports.

Otherwise it needs to be a no-hold barred, blood-soaked battlefield. Really, the more I think about it the more I have the opinion that the ADC's job is to farm, while the support wins the lane.

[toasty]

I would never play this lane if I were going to aim for a safe strategy. I'd play it as an all in, do-or-die lane. I normally don't aim for that, but nonetheless it can be very fun to play those lanes now and then to break the monotony of Ez/Sona vs Taric/Graves.

Fiddlesticks I'd play in a serious lane, since he works well in one; whereas GP (my other unconventional support) is less serious but still competitive. The Rengar lane is clearly a kill lane, where it doesn't matter that the "support" is getting SOME of the kills, so long as the opponent is dead and the AD carry gets to free farm. I used to play support Singed for a friend when he played Graves. Worked a charm, but that by no means says the the character is best suited to that position.

Fair enough, and I do think support as a role is highly underrated right now and I'm actually realizing, after months of sustain less valued, how awesome non-sustain supports are.

Actually, with all this FOTM double AD and Solo AD carries mid coming from Fear, Quantic, and even Curse a little, I wouldn't be surprised to see the obvious followup: Double Tank Bot lanes. BlitzStar my friends? BlitzStar.

edit: My ideal ideal Bot Lane right now would probably be Garen Darius, for the lulz. Blitz Darius seems fun too, especially against a Sona.

[Math_Mage]

Speaking of unconventional supports, my most recent experience along those lines was playing against a GP support. Which would have been fine, except this was blind pick. We were playing Vayne/Janna. As you can imagine, this did not end well for us.

[ex cathedra]

The issue with most of these unconventional supports, I think, is that most of them do the same thing as normal supports but worse. Take LeBlanc for instance. That sit-in-a-bush-and-burst-from-afar strat is just better coming from Zyra, Sona, and Lulu.

[Temotei]

Introductions out of the way, I have this to ask: Who is your favourite less-conventional support, if any?

Probably Kennen or Lee Sin. They're both hilarious.

[TechnOkami]

Can't Fiddles support to a degree?

[Tychris1]

Can't Fiddles support to a degree?

Yes, it primarily consists of "LOL, AD Carry feared for 3 seconds while crow silences your support and the AD Carry. Woops, now I'm throwing in TONS OF DAMAGE! Oh, and then there's my AD as well, I guess. He's just sitting there farming."

[NineThePuma]

Rengar's jungle is awful right now, especially that first clear, and his ganks pre-6 are lack luster at best. Putting him top as a blood thirsty zone controlling demoncatman is his best role, but by the same token, putting him Bot to do much the same thing with less farming works well.

Also, the season 3 changes actually ruined him as a jungler even more.

[PersonMan]

The issue with most of these unconventional supports, I think, is that most of them do the same thing as normal supports but worse. Take LeBlanc for instance. That sit-in-a-bush-and-burst-from-afar strat is just better coming from Zyra, Sona, and Lulu.

Eh, I also play Support Zyra and I like LB better. Laning might be similar (it isn't, in my experience, very similar, actually), but mid/late game is entirely different.

Sona and Lulu both lack the whole 'mobility is my middle name' aspect of LB which I like. I also don't play support Lulu because I keep wanting to build bruiser Lulu whenever I play her...

[Forrestfire]

To be honest, the 'support' picture should only be that if you have bad supports.

Otherwise it needs to be a no-hold barred, blood-soaked battlefield. Really, the more I think about it the more I have the opinion that the ADC's job is to farm, while the support wins the lane.

I was under the impression that the support was the adult in the picture.

Solo queue support is like herding cats, except that cats are normally smart enough to not run into a meatgrinder...

[MCerberus]

I was under the impression that the support was the adult in the picture.

Solo queue support is like herding cats, except that cats are normally smart enough to not run into a meatgrinder...

Not adorable cats mind you, cats that do nothing but hiss at each other all day and claw you constantly.

[NineThePuma]

Reminds me of a game I did on TT where I was playing Skarner and had a Shaco who AFK'd for the first 4 minutes, then blamed me every time he died. I mean, yeah, I built tanky, but Shaco built PURE GLASS CANNON AD. It was awful.

[Silverraptor]

So, got Rengar. How to build him? Help please.:smallsmile:

[NineThePuma]

Rengar is, surprisingly enough, fairly straight forward. I like to rush a brutalizer because it helps him immensely in lane, and then start going tanky. Phage, HexDrinker, and Wriggles are all core on him in my opinion. From there, I would upgrade to Mallet and pick up a GA. This gives you fairly solid tankyness without sacrificing your damage (which is your most important thing, IMO).

From there, it's a question of what role you need to fulfill for your team, and how the enemy is playing. I've found that going for a BT at this point drastically increases your damage output (usually in place of Wriggles, TBH), and replacing Brutalizer with a LW should be done pretty much as soon as the enemy squishies have an Armor item that isn't zhonyas.

[toasty]

So, got Rengar. How to build him? Help please.:smallsmile:

Iwilldominate from Team Dignitas has played him a lot in the Jungle: He does a Boots start into HoG, Double Dorans Blade, Aegis and GA. I'm not sure how that plays out because I haven't really paid attention to him, it seems more like a tanky-bruiser guy than an assassin though.

Top Lane Voyboy has done stuff like Triforce or BT start. You can also do something like Hexdrinker, Phage, Tank items. In general GA seems a smart item on him (for now at least). If you want to maximize your magic damage sunfire cape is good. I've seen people play him with Sorc+Haunting Guise+Sunfire (also a decent build on malphite).

The general conclusion seems to be a tanky bruiser type guy versus a straight up assassin is the way to go, but within that there is room for stuff like Triforce or Last Whisper.

[TechnOkami]

So... I haven't Fiddle'd in a while, and I think I need a refresher on him.

In mid lane, is he a champ who would want to, say, rush an hourglass and build defensive AP items and then AP as necessary? Or should he go into a straight deathcap or should he build a revolver, ect? I really have not fiddles'd in a while.

[Eldariel]

So... I haven't Fiddle'd in a while, and I think I need a refresher on him.

In mid lane, is he a champ who would want to, say, rush an hourglass and build defensive AP items and then AP as necessary? Or should he go into a straight deathcap or should he build a revolver, ect? I really have not fiddles'd in a while.

Zhonya > Abyssal with Sorcs with couple of Doran's Rings and maybe Haunting Guise; his passive MRShred makes MPen stacking particularly strong on him.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, just did it again. The game definitely hangs in battle training if the nexus is destroyed before you do all the little fetch quests it gives you.

[TechnOkami]

Zhonya > Abyssal with Sorcs with couple of Doran's Rings and maybe Haunting Guise; his passive MRShred makes MPen stacking particularly strong on him.

Alright, thanks Eld. I won't bother to ask for a how to on jungling him, since that's going to be a whole new can of worms to re-figure out once the changes go through (as well as most of the game's itemization, now that I think about it).

[Eldariel]

Alright, thanks Eld. I won't bother to ask for a how to on jungling him, since that's going to be a whole new can of worms to re-figure out once the changes go through (as well as most of the game's itemization, now that I think about it).

Well, itemization is very much the same for jungling (minus Doran's, plus Gold/10) but yeah, there are some details to it I suppose. And you can go Abyssal first and indeed, it can make sense against great many lane opponents. I personally prefer maxing Dark Wind for the pokes but of course if enemy can't interrupt Drain, feel free to profit.

[McDouggal]

Yeah, just did it again. The game definitely hangs in battle training if the nexus is destroyed before you do all the little fetch quests it gives you.

You don't have to solo Baron. I know that much...

[TechnOkami]

Well, itemization is very much the same for jungling (minus Doran's, plus Gold/10) but yeah, there are some details to it I suppose. And you can go Abyssal first and indeed, it can make sense against great many lane opponents. I personally prefer maxing Dark Wind for the pokes but of course if enemy can't interrupt Drain, feel free to profit.

It's funny, actually. Out of all his skills, whenever I play him, I end up maxing drain last. The utility of a poke and a minion slaying bouncy balloon coupled with that bloody amazing fear I find to be much better in lane. Sure you get sustain with his W, but often more than less I find myself unable to capitalize off of it enough. His Q is great to just stop jungle ganks in their path and, of course, E for easy harass and farm.

P.S.: I've never really figured out his jungle. At all.

[NotAEvilToaster]

Revolver first. The sustain with your ult, especially near creeps, is ridiculous. Then I usually go derpcap to defensive AP items. However, he's not REALLY that good mid now adays, and personally I feel he has trouble farming. Bot is so much more fun.

[ex cathedra]

incoming "aether disagrees with pretty much everyone" post, followed by actual original content! kinda.


Eh, I also play Support Zyra and I like LB better. Laning might be similar (it isn't, in my experience, very similar, actually), but mid/late game is entirely different.

Sona and Lulu both lack the whole 'mobility is my middle name' aspect of LB which I like. I also don't play support Lulu because I keep wanting to build bruiser Lulu whenever I play her...

Frankly, I don't think that mobility is very good on supports. You don't have any gold with which to take advantage of your mobility, and in most cases you shouldn't find it very difficult to keep up with your AD carry. And that's really all that you need to do.

Zyra has better damage, better CC, more utility, and a better lategame. Even if you're one of those people who take farm and kills as a support and plan on buying real items in every game, LeBlanc is suboptimal because she doesn't scale as well with gold as Zyra.

I like unconventional supports, and I've been known to play several, but it's very important that people don't trick themselves into believing that most of them are actually good. They aren't. Every champion in the game is capable of taking advantage of mistakes, and that's really all you need to win a game. At that point, it doesn't really matter if your non-traditional support is Nasus or Rammus or Mordekaiser or Cassiopeia. In my opinion, if you want to win consistently over a large amount of games you're much better off picking champions that are reliable, strong at all stages of the game, and proactive. Champions who make favorable situations (e.g. 0cs Zyra) rather than champions who take advantage of favorable situations (e.g. 0cs Rengar). When you have a trifecta of high-damage, high-range, high-utility supports like Lulu, Zyra, and Sona, it's really hard to dislodge them unless you offer something extraordinarily hard to reproduce. In most cases, that's going to be the "tons of free gold" supports, like Nunu and Taric.


Actually, with all this FOTM double AD and Solo AD carries mid coming from Fear, Quantic, and even Curse a little, I wouldn't be surprised to see the obvious followup: Double Tank Bot lanes. BlitzStar my friends? BlitzStar.
You forgot CLG.EU. Froggen's been playing mid Corki super often. Anyways, I just wanted to mention that... wat. That doesn't make any sense. Isn't the point of double AD to have a monstrously strong lategame? Why would you completely negate that by running a bottom lane with poor scaling? ADC Mid + double tank bottom is the same thing as a normal/"meta" bottom lane with a tank mid once laning breaks down. Why would a tank mid be good? :smallconfused:


This is only moderately true. Kills ARE kills but certain comps really want the gold distributed towards heroes with the best late game. This is why ADs get gold and supports don't. ADs scale really well with gold.

So does Rengar...
Nitpick: I feel like Rengar's scaling is pretty mediocre, like that of most bruisers. Hence he and Irelia being midgame terrors but having less-than-obscene lategames. However, his base values are outrageous and so most of his gold scaling should work towards enabling you to actually use those base values. Generally, that comes in the form of defenses. It's not a huge difference, but I think it's important that we don't downplay how ludicrously ADs scale with gold by comparing them to bruisers. :smalltongue:


Dominate is playing Rengar and Hecarim, balls-deep all-in heroes who... really don't want Gold/10 (Aegis is still OP though).
I think that Philo stone Hecarim is actually fine as long as your first completed item is Shurelya's (mad ganks, yo). Otherwise, yeah. I agree. Support-tank jungling is lame as ****.


I've occasionally considered Supporten (that is, Support Kennen), since he has good "bushcamp, harass enemy" potential and can do well with only a handful of core items.
I'm pretty sure that "bushcamp, harass enemy" isn't enough to actually make a champion good at supporting.

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

[Renegade Paladin]

You don't have to solo Baron. I know that much...
It also doesn't tell you to solo Baron.

[McDouggal]

Really? My brother wanted to learn how to play, so I helped him set up an account last week. After killing Dragon, it wanted him to go for baron.

[ChaosOS]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

You'd mostly have to redesign all CDR items for one since they're balanced around that you get one or two and call it good

Secondly, on certain characters CDR increases their damage crazy amounts, so you'd have to balance around 1 item vs. stacked item cases, and multiplicative scaling doesn't really fix that because the gains on certain characters from CDR are just so massive.

Oh and a lot of abilities are balanced around a cap of 40% CDR and probably the game engine would need a redesign if you could get past that.

[ex cathedra]

There would still be a soft-cap much in the way that Tenacity is soft-capped at around 65%, and most items would have 8%, 10%, or 12%-ish CDR. It could easily get out of hand if CDR values remained too high, and you could get like 7 sources of -15% CDR (which is like 68% CDR).

[Renegade Paladin]

Really? My brother wanted to learn how to play, so I helped him set up an account last week. After killing Dragon, it wanted him to go for baron.
Well, it never has for me. I probably dive straight for the Nexus before it gets around to it; I think the side quests are triggered by character level.

[TheShrike]

Really? My brother wanted to learn how to play, so I helped him set up an account last week. After killing Dragon, it wanted him to go for baron.

It mentions that Baron is there, but doesn't make you go for it.

Also, I should mention that literally every character in the game can solo Baron, so there is that.

[NineThePuma]

Standard armor stacking rammus can't. Haven't really tried AP rammus though.

[TheShrike]

I never said every build can solo it. 2 Bloodthirsters, 2 Phantom Dancers, Infinity Edge and Zerker's Greaves. Red and Green pot if you feel like it. Any character with that build can solo Baron.

[Eldariel]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

I've brought this up before. I think that would solve the fact that currently CDR "overflows" way too easily randomly wasting stats on many items (and making some item combinations unfeasible for silly reasons).

It would also be in line with like armor, MR, percentile penetration and just about every other percentile system and it would make CDR itself more sensible (right now you really just want 40% if you're going for it since the gains from 30%-40% are so much greater than the gains from 0%-10%).

It would require some ability checks for abuse (any champion with inherent cooldown reducing effects - Xin, Skarner, Zilean, etc. - could be potentially broken) and yeah, CDR values would of course have to be reassigned (the 25% on Nashor's would likely be too strong if you could cross the 40% barrier, even if it were inefficient), but I think it would ultimately lead to a better game and make the system more sensible and CDR more interesting.


The reason nobody currently builds CDR Boots aside from Vlad is that those who need CDR can get it easily from better items, for instance. Blue buff and blue elixir are big culprits too.

Also, the current CDR cap really screws Vilemaw over; half the time the buff does nothing and the other you don't really care too much about your cooldowns. The times it's fully utilized and the effect is desirable are extremely few (though of course, for e.g. Ezreal it's a brutally powerful buff).

[ChaosOS]

Here's the thing. Why bother getting just one CDR piece at that point? Individual CDR levels are so low that it would be a waste just to get one, instead you either don't bother or you stack it to max amount. 8 or 12% CDR is relatively insignificant, while 60% is extremely effective. Basically, absolutely enormous system change with minimal benefit.

[Godskook]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

1.Ryze and Skarner would be ridiculously bad or good, depending on how much CDR was readily available. I don't think there's a way to make multiplicative scaling work with their concepts.

2.Attack Speed works exactly like CDR, except AS is designed such that you'll never hit the cap in practice. Also, the numbers are represented very weirdly, such that realizing how it actually works is quite difficult.

[Mirrinus]

Still waiting on Nami, Riot. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxRlB8T6t1g)

The parodies just write themselves. I've already seen like 3 different versions, including that awesome Iron Stylus one (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31521726#31521726).

[Temotei]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

It would be interesting, at least. I bet it could be done well, though the current system is done well, in my opinion, so changing it would be weird. Still.

[LordShotGun]

There would still be a soft-cap much in the way that Tenacity is soft-capped at around 65%, and most items would have 8%, 10%, or 12%-ish CDR. It could easily get out of hand if CDR values remained too high, and you could get like 7 sources of -15% CDR (which is like 68% CDR).

In an era where game mechanics and UIs are being changed to make the game more intuitive, I think your "soft-capped" CDR idea is just too complicated.

Granted it is interesting to us the experienced players but for newbies it would add another layer of impenetrable game mechanics. I mean it was only after nearly my first hundred games in lol before I understood what CDR even was

[Math_Mage]

Still waiting on Nami, Riot. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxRlB8T6t1g)

The parodies just write themselves. I've already seen like 3 different versions, including that awesome Iron Stylus one (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31521726#31521726).

That thread notes one of my pet peeves about Riot's project management team: they pay very little attention to maintaining variety in appearance through their project pipeline (that is, don't release Jayce-Darius-Draven and then Syndra-Zyra-Elise, mix up the order a bit). This is separate from my peeves about art design in general, though.

[Godskook]

I've brought this up before. I think that would solve the fact that currently CDR "overflows" way too easily randomly wasting stats on many items (and making some item combinations unfeasible for silly reasons).

What I'd like to see is to have CDR have an alternate scaling effect once the cap is reached. Say....the equivalent of 1:1 as AP and 1:0.5 AD-for-skills? This would allow champions who stacked CDR to still benefit from it after hitting the cap, while not being too overpowered.

I'd like something similar with Crit chance, but I'm pretty sure Riot is moving away form being able to achieve 100% Crit chance in most cases.

[NineThePuma]

100% Critchance Gangplank says Hi.

He carries his sword so that he can punch towers.

Also: New Morde Art. It's Freakin Awesome. (http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/loldiffs/AirClientDiff_11_26_2012_8_56_PM/images/Mordekaiser_Splash_0.jpg)

Also, IronStylus is pretty awesome, I think. Here's why (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=560209&d=1353238930)

[Renegade Paladin]

1Also: New Morde Art. It's Freakin Awesome. (http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/loldiffs/AirClientDiff_11_26_2012_8_56_PM/images/Mordekaiser_Splash_0.jpg)
Appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0deA1JUUZFQ) :smallbiggrin:

[Tychris1]

Appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0deA1JUUZFQ) :smallbiggrin:

TIME

TO

SHREEEEDDDD!?!?!?!?!!!

I whole heartedly approve of that art update, fingers crossed that the other ones get updated aswell. I want manly manly well designed Abs to go with the flowing greasy hair on my Rocking Lord of Pestilence and Metal damnit!

[Forrestfire]

Does anyone know how I can convince one of my 'friends' to...

Well, look:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29188379#history

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

I think most of the problem here, though, is that he's really arrogant about his supposed skill level as a result of being carried from level 15ish... He refuses to learn :smallannoyed:

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick. :smalltongue:

And I keep telling you, you're not using a big enough stick.

[Math_Mage]

Does anyone know how I can convince one of my 'friends' to...

Well, look:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29188379#history

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

I think most of the problem here, though, is that he's really arrogant about his supposed skill level as a result of being carried from level 15ish... He refuses to learn :smallannoyed:

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick. :smalltongue:

There are a few things you can do, depending on what your friend will be receptive to.

If he's mathematically inclined, you can math things out for him, especially for things like Hextech Vlad. Of course, were he mathematically inclined, this probably wouldn't be an issue.

If he's liable to respect the authority of what good players do, find some videos of good players playing Blitzcrank and show him how they play without running out of mana. Find, oh, every respectable guide ever and show him where they say not to take Clarity.

If he's a "This build works for me" type, and you don't want to wait for him to figure this stuff out on his own, you pretty much have to mirror-match him and explain what you're doing differently from him at every step.

If he's really too big for his britches, put him in an inhouse with efdf. :smalltongue:

[sonofzeal]

Does anyone know how I can convince one of my 'friends' to...

Well, look:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29188379#history

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

I think most of the problem here, though, is that he's really arrogant about his supposed skill level as a result of being carried from level 15ish... He refuses to learn :smallannoyed:

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick. :smalltongue:
Oh geeze.

Clarity, and Philo's, and Archangel's, on Blitz? On someone who's at Summoner Level 30?

Sigh.

Well, even ignoring that Clarity is anathema......



First, perhaps you should inform him that Manamune is indeed a thing that exists, and characters going in with AD masteries and an eye towards TriForce would be far better served by that over Archangel's. Conversely, if he really wants Archangel's, AP masteries and a Lich Bane will take him further.

Second... well, many champions do need something for mana, but generally only one major item (except Ryze of course). Archangel's / Manamune are appropriate for some, and Chalice/Grail are great for many others, but if you're building one of those you shouldn't take Clarity, and vice versa. Philo's is small enough not to really apply, but if you're going to rush a mana item immediately after then a different gp10 is probably worth your while.

Third... he seems to be playing mostly supports, but not supports who use their skills on allies for the most part. If he's playing as this kind of support, he should only ever be taking Clarity if his lane partner is absurdly mana-intensive (Vayne comes to mind), rather than as a go-to. And even then, he should seriously consider ASKING his lane partner what THEY want him to pack.

[ex cathedra]

Standard armor stacking rammus can't. Haven't really tried AP rammus though.
why would a champion with the second best armor steroid in the game stack armor? HP gives you significantly more survivability in most scenarios.

1.Ryze and Skarner would be ridiculously bad or good, depending on how much CDR was readily available. I don't think there's a way to make multiplicative scaling work with their concepts.
well, we know that multiplicative CDR scaling a la Ez/Skarner/Ryze/Xin works because it's already implemented, and so while it would quite possibly need to be retuned it doesn't seam impossible by any stretch. probs not worth the effort, though. remember that CDR wouldn't actually work any differently, it's just that the rate at which it's obtained would level out.


2.Attack Speed works exactly like CDR, except AS is designed such that you'll never hit the cap in practice. Also, the numbers are represented very weirdly, such that realizing how it actually works is quite difficult.
it's pretty simple if you think of auto attacks as an ability whose cooldown is equal to the reciprocal of your attack speed. at least, that's probably how it works but i'm sleepy. this is true, tho


In an era where game mechanics and UIs are being changed to make the game more intuitive, I think your "soft-capped" CDR idea is just too complicated.

Granted it is interesting to us the experienced players but for newbies it would add another layer of impenetrable game mechanics. I mean it was only after nearly my first hundred games in lol before I understood what CDR even was

CDR will still be CDR and it won't work any differently. tenacity already uses the exact system that i described, if you weren't aware. one could argue that it would be more intuitive if "CD reduction" and "CC reduction" mathed out in the same way. all that this would do is keep the value of additional CDR relatively stable regardless of how much CDR you already have. as it stands, going from 0% CDR to 20% CDR is distinctly less significant than going from 20% CDR to 40% CDR, even though you're getting the same amount of +%CDR each time. understand?


If he's really too big for his britches, put him in an inhouse with efdf. :smalltongue:
i beat efdf in a 1v1 so i'm pretty much the best right now


Here's the thing. Why bother getting just one CDR piece at that point? Individual CDR levels are so low that it would be a waste just to get one, instead you either don't bother or you stack it to max amount. 8 or 12% CDR is relatively insignificant, while 60% is extremely effective. Basically, absolutely enormous system change with minimal benefit.

because... CDR is often tacked on to other valuable stats? there aren't just "CDR items", boots aside. FH gives tons of armor and the best aura in the game, there's a new glacial shroud item, spirit visage got buffed, locket got buffed, there are like more than have a dozen entirely new CDR items, shurelya's is still overpowered, etc. very few champions aim to just itemize CDR. they tend to pick up stat X, stat Y, and CDR. It's also readily available via runes, masteries, and auras, abilities, and several buff objectives. i'm not saying it's the greatest idea, and it does have flaws, but the same is true of the current system. hitting the CDR cap can be frustratingly easy and it's probably a bit too strong considering the way it stacks at the moment.

[Forrestfire]

I normally don't play with him because he's awful, but from what I've experienced and been told, he plays supports because the rest of the group puts him there in an attempt at damage control.

He thinks he's really good as Tryndamere, and often wants to go top if no one else has asked, but thankfully I'm generally not there for those games...

EDIT: Clarity is a meditating man? I always thought it was a ball filled with lightning... :smallredface:

[dgnslyr]

Today I realized the Clarity icon is a meditating man and not a tiny Veigar head. I think I may have problems.

As for your little problem involving Mr. Clarity, there are always the three types of arguments: ethos, pathos, and logos. Since logos didn't work, try ethos: No pro player ever runs Clarity, and all write it off as a terrible summoner spell. Of course, this may not penetrate his ego, so pathos? Every time you run Clarity, PETA puts down another cute puppy. Is that horrific enough?

[ex cathedra]

Today I realized the Clarity icon is a meditating man and not a tiny Veigar head. I think I may have problems.

most summoner icons are tiny people, so... yeah.

[TechnOkami]

I like that efdf idea the most, MathMage... I'd certainly like to spectate that if it happened. :smallbiggrin:

[McDouggal]

Of course, this may not penetrate his ego, so pathos? Every time you run Clarity, PETA puts down another cute puppy. Is that horrific enough?

You owe me a new keyboard. (then again, I should know better than to be taking a drink when I'm reading this forums.) (Also, please understand that I'm not laughing at cute puppies being put down. I'm laughing at how over-the-top it is.)

In all seriousness: As someone who mains Blitz, unless a teamfight has been going on for over 2 minutes, I don't have mana troubles, running Exhaust/Flash. I usually don't even have Tear. I just know when to W, and when to use Q&R (just pop E whenever it comes up. 25 mana isn't horrible).

[TheShrike]

i beat efdf in a 1v1 so i'm pretty much the best right now

I saw it happen, it was glorious.

[Temotei]

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

The real problem here is that Vlad game where he apparently refused to take clarity. Correct that behavior.

Uh, but yeah. Try to not target him and rather be diplomatic, suggesting that clarity is less-than-optimal. Don't say things like, "Clarity is bad, don't take it" (even though it is) because that makes people think that for taking it, they are bad (even though they probably are). Point: Accidentally targeting the person makes them stop listening almost regardless of who they are. Suggesting that exhaust would save his life more often or get him more kills than clarity might prompt him to begin to change his mind.

Anyway, good luck. If he's as hardheaded as he sounds, it'll be a lot harder than this post makes it sound.

[Drascin]

Well, Clarity isn't always uselss. But yeah, it's a rather specialized spell. I've for example taken it a fair amount as Maokai support when supporting Caitlins - the increased poke from saplings and Cait Qs is very noticeable when you don't have to be so worried about mana conservation. It also then helps with recovering from a skirmish and psychologically pushing randoms a bit - not being OOM can make the difference between half your team doing a B after a won skirmish where they should be pushing a tower or two or not.

(I also tend to take it a fair amount in mids if I can't rely on getting blue from jungle, because there's a handful of blue-dependent mids where just Chalice isn't anywhere near enough to keep up).

But yeah, definitely not a "mainstay" spell. Rather, it's something you pick in particular situations - for your average support, Exhaust is much more valuable.

[Godskook]

Well, Clarity isn't always uselss. But yeah, it's a rather specialized spell. I've for example taken it a fair amount as Maokai support when supporting Caitlins - the increased poke from saplings and Cait Qs is very noticeable when you don't have to be so worried about mana conservation.

I....can actually see this, but support Mao really wants flash for getting himself out of trouble and also really wants exhaust.


It also then helps with recovering from a skirmish and psychologically pushing randoms a bit - not being OOM can make the difference between half your team doing a B after a won skirmish where they should be pushing a tower or two or not.

Solving a problem that's also solvable with a ping is not a good justification for using a summoner spell. Especially when better summoners will help you create those situations(or even better ones!) more often.


(I also tend to take it a fair amount in mids if I can't rely on getting blue from jungle, because there's a handful of blue-dependent mids where just Chalice isn't anywhere near enough to keep up).

Who the hell are you playing? Anivia with Chalice, Mp5 masteries and lvl 11 out regens her wave clear, and we're working with 890g here. Dorans Rings, Catalyst proc, runes or other Mp5, and we're golden even sooner. Swain has mana sustain. Kassadin....not playing Kassadin is a better option(to running clarity on him), imho, as is running ignite/flash on him, since he really needs both those spells.

I could see AP Kog, except AP Kog takes the Teaching Stick to his jungler if he isn't passed blue buff by 3rd blue.

[Eldariel]

Here's the thing. Why bother getting just one CDR piece at that point? Individual CDR levels are so low that it would be a waste just to get one, instead you either don't bother or you stack it to max amount. 8 or 12% CDR is relatively insignificant, while 60% is extremely effective. Basically, absolutely enormous system change with minimal benefit.

No, that's how it is currently. There's no reason to get less than 40% CDR if you're getting CDR since every additional piece of CDR is more efficient than the previous. Making it multiplicative (that is, basically diminishing returns for each additional piece) would keep the value of each CDR item built constant so you could build as much as makes sense for your champion without losing out on effective value in terms of items built.


In an era where game mechanics and UIs are being changed to make the game more intuitive, I think your "soft-capped" CDR idea is just too complicated.

Granted it is interesting to us the experienced players but for newbies it would add another layer of impenetrable game mechanics. I mean it was only after nearly my first hundred games in lol before I understood what CDR even was

*shrug* It's no more complex than armor or MR. All these stats could be explained in the tutorial anyways.


What I'd like to see is to have CDR have an alternate scaling effect once the cap is reached. Say....the equivalent of 1:1 as AP and 1:0.5 AD-for-skills? This would allow champions who stacked CDR to still benefit from it after hitting the cap, while not being too overpowered.

I'd like something similar with Crit chance, but I'm pretty sure Riot is moving away form being able to achieve 100% Crit chance in most cases.

Something like that could also work. The biggest thing that irks me about CDR currently is that it's the only stat that'll cap itself without you intentionally striving for it and then you're unable to utilize many built-in effects that grant said stat for "free" in the game (also one of the major problems with Soul Shroud currently; you need to agree before game that it'll be built or many people are bound to miss out on the aura).

[sonofzeal]

"Hey, Rugged Garen is on sale! That skin's right up my alley! I haven't played Garen in ages though. Heck, I only ever played like two games with him, tops. Uh. How I mine 4 Garen?"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/sonofzeal/temp-1.png

"Oh, that's how." :smallbiggrin:



I've carried before, but never have I felt so MANLY doing so. Garen's another of those superb designs where the gameplay dovetails with the personality to really capture the feeling. Love it. I'll play more of him now.


(edit) Favorite moment: Picking up a lvl 1 kill. I'd bushcamped the middle of bot, and when Annie got to lane she skipped right up close.. so I said "screw it", went all in, and got First Blood when everyone else was still getting First CS.

Man those towers are far away from the middle of the lane!

[Reynard]

(edit) Favorite moment: Picking up a lvl 1 kill. I'd bushcamped the middle of bot, and when Annie got to lane she skipped right up close.. so I said "screw it", went all in, and got First Blood when everyone else was still getting First CS.

Man those towers are far away from the middle of the lane!

Welcome to bot games? I dunno, if there hasn't been a first blood before the first wave of minions are all dead, something is wrong. Especially on TT where, as you point out, you can just buy boots and proceed to slap them in the face as they run back to tower with their dorans items.

[LordShotGun]

I feel bad when my team is losing a game horribly but we win because the other team's ADC or APC disconnected.

I just had a game where the enemy vayne was super SUPER fed (like 14-4-5) but then she DC'ed and now I (as skarner) have only need to neutralize the APC to win since the enemy top laner was tanky lee sin and the jungler was maokia, both of whom can't deal enough damage to win teamfights by themselves (at least not with the builds they had).

[Joran]

I feel bad when my team is losing a game horribly but we win because the other team's ADC or APC disconnected.

I just had a game where the enemy vayne was super SUPER fed (like 14-4-5) but then she DC'ed and now I (as skarner) have only need to neutralize the APC to win since the enemy top laner was tanky lee sin and the jungler was maokia, both of whom can't deal enough damage to win teamfights by themselves (at least not with the builds they had).

Yeah, I type "gg wp, sorry for the dc" whenever the opposing team had a dc. Sometimes it happens and it sucks.

[Eldariel]

No need to watch IPL 5 stream anymore. (http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13v9d3/96_hours_at_ipl5_las_vegas/)

[Silverraptor]

Guys, How many seeds does Zyra have? Becaue I just played against 1 who had 4 out at any given time. I thought the limit was 2.:smalleek:

[MCerberus]

Guys, How many seeds does Zyra have? Becaue I just played against 1 who had 4 out at any given time. I thought the limit was 2.:smalleek:

How it goes is that you have a seed to plant every x seconds, like Heimer's turret ammo. The difference is that planting seeds doesn't make the previous ones go poof. So you plop two down, wait a bit, plop another.

[Eldariel]

How it goes is that you have a seed to plant every x seconds, like Heimer's turret ammo. The difference is that planting seeds doesn't make the previous ones go poof. So you plop two down, wait a bit, plop another.

Addendum, while she can get the seed recharge timer pretty low (max rank base CD is 13 and it's affected by CDR so at 40% CDR she'd be at 7.8 seconds, I believe), there's a global cap of 4 on the seeds.

Seeds last for 30 seconds so theoretically I believe you could lay two seeds, recharge two more in 15.6 seconds and have 1 in store and 1 almost off cooldown (1.2 seconds left) at the same time at the 30 second mark when the first two would expire.

[McDouggal]

Vayne so fun.

Bot games to try her out (I'm looking for an ADC other than Ashe who I can play well), and after a few games learning her mechanics and taking it slow, I go bot with Riven.

She promptly accuses me of KSing the FB (I did most of the damage), and heads top (we had a DC).

Game Over, right? Sona/Ashe botlane will wreck my face.

Nope. Without any help, I take the first 2 towers of the game, and am 8-1 exiting laning. I proceed to feed on their entire team; takes 4 of them to kick me out of lane. Finish 24/2/0, autoattacking for ~500 on average.

[Thrawn183]

Normally I try not to complain to much about leavers, but 55 minutes into a game is just awful:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/Anticlimactic.jpg


I'd even had the Godzilla music on repeat in the background to make things extra special. I am a sad panda.

[Tychris1]

Normally I try not to complain to much about leavers, but 55 minutes into a game is just awful:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/Anticlimactic.jpg


I'd even had the Godzilla music on repeat in the background to make things extra special. I am a sad panda.

:smallbiggrin: Photobombing, fun thing to do.

Anyway, that sucks man. Especially in such an invested game like that. But your fiddlesticks, just ult, activate Zhonyas, and laugh at everyone dropping dead around you. No need for 4 other people.

[Thrawn183]

:smallbiggrin: Photobombing, fun thing to do.

Anyway, that sucks man. Especially in such an invested game like that. But your fiddlesticks, just ult, activate Zhonyas, and laugh at everyone dropping dead around you. No need for 4 other people.

Two of my six kills came from attempting a baron steal. Unfortunately, my team refused to go in 4v3 afterwards. Proceeded to run around like chickens with their heads cut off, really.

Yeah, I thought about clipping the edges of the photo, like I usually do; but hey, it's funnier this way.

Edit: Also, support fiddles has trouble carrying games. Though the fact that they kept focusing me once I had Rylai's and Randuins probably kept our team in the game.

[Eldariel]

Two of my six kills came from attempting a baron steal. Unfortunately, my team refused to go in 4v3 afterwards. Proceeded to run around like chickens with their heads cut off, really.

Yeah, I thought about clipping the edges of the photo, like I usually do; but hey, it's funnier this way.

Edit: Also, support fiddles has trouble carrying games. Though the fact that they kept focusing me once I had Rylai's and Randuins probably kept our team in the game.

I always go Sorcerer shoes on Support Fiddles and I try to fit in Zhonya (and Abyssal). Really helps with the whole Carrying-part; the principle is the same as with nRated's support Zyra.

Fiddle is the one champion who actually has sufficient damage output to be a sufficient damage threat to be the team's only Mage with support's farm (he still forces enemy to stack up on MR or die a horrible death).

[Thrawn183]

I always go Sorcerer shoes on Support Fiddles and I try to fit in Zhonya (and Abyssal). Really helps with the whole Carrying-part; the principle is the same as with nRated's support Zyra.

Fiddle is the one champion who actually has sufficient damage output to be a sufficient damage threat to be the team's only Mage with support's farm (he still forces enemy to stack up on MR or die a horrible death).

I don't disagree in general, but in this case Vayne was so fed I was really just focusing on trying to shut her down. In retrospect, I really should have gone with a frozen heart/sorc shoes over the randuins/ionan that I tried.

[Eldariel]

I don't disagree in general, but in this case Vayne was so fed I was really just focusing on trying to shut her down. In retrospect, I really should have gone with a frozen heart/sorc shoes over the randuins/ionan that I tried.

Well, never forget: the best way to shut someone down is to Just ****ing Kill Them™.

[TFT]

I missed the discussion on nonstandard supports, but I'm going to inflict you guys with my favorite one anyways.

Kennen, and I feel like it could be somewhat viable.

Reasons why it's actually okay? First, it has strong poke for lane presence. Not quite lulu or sona levels of poke, but it's also enough because of the second thing he has for lane. What is that? Stuns. Q W Q or Q W E, as long as you hit Qs, gives a consistent stun. Along with okay base damage, it gives him a strong enough laning presence to get through. The big thing is that he has one of the strongest peeling abilities in the game through his ult. Given that he isn't focused or pushed out(Which, if he is support, means he is soaking up cc and is still an okay scenario) he is stunning up to 3 people along with his w and possibly e. It's equivalent to sona ult or lulu ult in forms of CC. This is along with at least one or two other stuns every few seconds and nonterrible damage in midgame fights. There are a few problems with it, but even with those I can't see it being worse then fiddles support.

Now if I could only convince someone to play it in a nonsilly game... :smalltongue:

[Math_Mage]

The appropriate comparison to Kennen is not Fiddle, Sona, or Lulu so much as Zyra, who is pretty much strictly better for the job. More reliable lane CC, same solid poke, same solid brush control, and an AOE CC ult that isn't PbAOE. You lose some mobility, but Zyra doesn't need Lightning Rush to contribute.

[Silverraptor]

So, I'd like to give a shoutout to Mario and thank him for teaching me rengar. On dominion, he's a *BEAST*. I had a game where every member on their team built thornmail just for me, where I'd buy a LW and say "Don't care! Sorry Ashe!"

<3 Rengar.:smallbiggrin: Now if only Kha'zix didn't fall off in damage so much late game.

[Tychris1]

So, I'd like to give a shoutout to Mario and thank him for teaching me rengar. On dominion, he's a *BEAST*. I had a game where every member on their team built thornmail just for me, where I'd buy a LW and say "Don't care! Sorry Ashe!"

<3 Rengar.:smallbiggrin: Now if only Kha'zix didn't fall off in damage so much late game.

Are we playing the same bug?

[Qwertystop]

:smallbiggrin: Photobombing, fun thing to do.

Anyway, that sucks man. Especially in such an invested game like that. But your fiddlesticks, just ult, activate Zhonyas, and laugh at everyone dropping dead around you. No need for 4 other people.

What exactly is photobombing?

[Temotei]

What exactly is photobombing?

One of his posts is above the post-game window asking if Fiddlesticks can support.

[Thrawn183]

What exactly is photobombing?

Normally it is showing up in the background of a picture, usually when people have posed for it. In this case, the screen shot I took of the post game screen had this thread open in the background. In particular, his post.

[Qwertystop]

Normally it is showing up in the background of a picture, usually when people have posed for it. In this case, the screen shot I took of the post game screen had this thread open in the background. In particular, his post.

Ah. Ok then.

[LordShotGun]

Ah. Ok then.

http://memebase.cheezburger.com/thisisphotobomb

Here, educate yourself about the interwebs in all its terrible GLORY!!!

[sonofzeal]

So, I'd like to give a shoutout to Mario and thank him for teaching me rengar. On dominion, he's a *BEAST*. I had a game where every member on their team built thornmail just for me, where I'd buy a LW and say "Don't care! Sorry Ashe!"

<3 Rengar.:smallbiggrin: Now if only Kha'zix didn't fall off in damage so much late game.
The last time I saw Rengar on Dominion, I killed him twice in the first three minutes. But then, I was Urgot and could just E or Q or both into any bushes from outside his leap range, and he was playing pretty incautiously under the circumstances and, y'know, still trying to use those bushes.

[ChaosOS]

Rengar has really good map presence on dom because of his ult. Basically, he amazingly counters ninja-cappers with tracking ult for those nasty blinks and stealths from shaco and then does massive massive burst to them squishies while being tanky enough himself to live through their burst. The perfect anti-assassin.

[Silverraptor]

Rengar has really good map presence on dom because of his ult. Basically, he amazingly counters ninja-cappers with tracking ult for those nasty blinks and stealths from shaco and then does massive massive burst to them squishies while being tanky enough himself to live through their burst. The perfect anti-assassin.

How true that was. We were tracking the enemy team as they tried to rally to top turret, I ulted to catch up to them and revealed an enemy hecarim in a bush lying in wait to ambush and pincer us with his team, instantly my entire team jumped him and proceeded to snowball to get top turret.:smallbiggrin:

[Ashen Lilies]

So I guess there's little point in lurking here much longer. Hi, I'm Kid Kris, and I'm a League of Legends player. Same username as I use over here, over on the NA servers. Steadily working my way up to level 30; at level 25 currently and ballin'.

I don't really seem to have a main yet... I tend to pick last so I can fill whatever role the team is missing. My most common picks tend to be Lux, Ashe, or Malphite as a top-laner or as support. Recently though, I've been playing support Leona since she's in rotation right now, and... omg. So much fun. I've only done 3 games with her so far, but that means I've just won 3 games with her so far. It's like I'm a soup kitchen for my carry. Brilliance. Definitely going to be saving up the 6300 IP to buy her, as much of a grind as that is. (And I just keep getting distracted by other, cheaper champions too!)

So um... hey guys.

[Godskook]

Definitely going to be saving up the 6300 IP to buy her, as much of a grind as that is. (And I just keep getting distracted by other, cheaper champions too!)

I find that as long as you make sure to get FWotD every day(and play 2-3 real games), you can typically average about 7-8k per champion release, which is enough to buy every new champion on release and still have some left over to grab all the old champions(eventually...). I know this has been true for me since Jayce came out.

And if normals are really being obnoxious, just co-op TT or Dominion for FWotD. Those are really quick games, especially TT with decent range ADC(tower pushing OP).


So um... hey guys.

Friend invite already sent. Also, Hey.

[TheShrike]

TIL: TFT plays top lane at about 1300 Elo.

He plays Lulu at like Plat level, though, so w/e.

[Godskook]

TIL: TFT plays top lane at about 1300 Elo.

He plays Lulu at like Plat level, though, so w/e.

What happens if he plays Lulu solo top?

[Silverraptor]

So I guess there's little point in lurking here much longer. Hi, I'm Kid Kris, and I'm a League of Legends player. Same username as I use over here, over on the NA servers. Steadily working my way up to level 30; at level 25 currently and ballin'.

I don't really seem to have a main yet... I tend to pick last so I can fill whatever role the team is missing. My most common picks tend to be Lux, Ashe, or Malphite as a top-laner or as support. Recently though, I've been playing support Leona since she's in rotation right now, and... omg. So much fun. I've only done 3 games with her so far, but that means I've just won 3 games with her so far. It's like I'm a soup kitchen for my carry. Brilliance. Definitely going to be saving up the 6300 IP to buy her, as much of a grind as that is. (And I just keep getting distracted by other, cheaper champions too!)

So um... hey guys.

Hey Kris.:smallsmile: Glad you finally made it in here. Welcome.

As far as not having a main, thats actually the best way to play. You want to be profficient with many champions to accomidate any role your team needs. Mains are basically for new players who are still trying to master the mechanics of the game. If you got that down, you're set to being able to play any champion. Normally we just pick champions based on what we "Feel" like playing.:smallbiggrin:

So yeah, hope on mumble sometime and start asking people for games. Were more then happy to do so.:smallwink:

[Talesin]

As far as not having a main, thats actually the best way to play. You want to be profficient with many champions to accomidate any role your team needs.

While I agree with you, in ranked games its usually good to have a 'main' for each of the roles you play and then a back up if it gets banned/picked from you.

But while you're leveling, like Silver said, you want to be playing champions you enjoy so you can find out what all characters can do to you if you lane against them. Plus you might find characters you thought wouldn't suit your style and turn out to be really fun to play.

I'd say Corki, Riven and Heimer were 3 who fall into the above situation for me.

[Eldariel]

As far as not having a main, thats actually the best way to play. You want to be profficient with many champions to accomidate any role your team needs. Mains are basically for new players who are still trying to master the mechanics of the game.

It just so happens occasionally whatever champ you've played the most remains your best champion by a mile even if you're extremely competent on most other champions too. Nothing to strive for but e.g. I'll probably never get quite as good on any other champ as I am with Anivia.

[PersonMan]

This can often form a cycle of sorts:

I like champ X -> I play X a lot -> I am good at playing X -> I win many games with X, which I enjoy -> I like champ X...

[ex cathedra]

Hey Kris.:smallsmile: Glad you finally made it in here. Welcome.

As far as not having a main, thats actually the best way to play. You want to be profficient with many champions to accomidate any role your team needs. Mains are basically for new players who are still trying to master the mechanics of the game. If you got that down, you're set to being able to play any champion. Normally we just pick champions based on what we "Feel" like playing.:smallbiggrin:

So yeah, hope on mumble sometime and start asking people for games. Were more then happy to do so.:smallwink:

As in most things, specialization is much more valuable than general knowledge. You should be able to fill in three or four roles competently, but if you actually want to improve i'd suggest that you main two or so champions and play them whenever popular. Having a wide champion pool isn't actually very useful at most levels of play. Mains are for for people like Bischu, TiensiNoAkuma, InvertedComposer, Cruzer, Hotshot, Dyrus, Froggen, Crumbz, etc. Tons of players hit the top 50 ladder wih only a couple of champions under their belt. Filling in roles every game and playing what you feel like playing doesn't help you improve nearly as rapidly.

[Ashen Lilies]

Hey Kris.:smallsmile: Glad you finally made it in here. Welcome.

As far as not having a main, thats actually the best way to play. You want to be profficient with many champions to accomidate any role your team needs. Mains are basically for new players who are still trying to master the mechanics of the game. If you got that down, you're set to being able to play any champion. Normally we just pick champions based on what we "Feel" like playing.:smallbiggrin:

So yeah, hope on mumble sometime and start asking people for games. Were more then happy to do so.:smallwink:

Well I do sort of have that. Lux or LeBlanc mid, Ashe carry, Malphite or Lux (or this week, Leona) support, Malphite or Garen or Shen or some random bruiser top. Haven't had much luck jungling, though I did try some Shyvana jungle last week and did fairly okay, I guess.

Also, ugh. Just played TT against a Zilean that rushed Rod of Ages. Time Bomb, Refresh, Time Bomb, everyone dies.

[toasty]

As far as not having a main, thats actually the best way to play. You want to be profficient with many champions to accomidate any role your team needs. Mains are basically for new players who are still trying to master the mechanics of the game. If you got that down, you're set to being able to play any champion. Normally we just pick champions based on what we "Feel" like playing.:smallbiggrin:

From a casual standpoint: Its good to be able to fill every role on the team and enjoy playing each role in some fashion. Solo Queue, especially DRAFT mode means you can't always play the role you want and teamcomps mean your favorite hero might not always be the ideal pick.

From a competitive standpoint: Pick a hero and play nothing but that hero. "Best Riven NA" has played more than half of his games with Riven this season. He has a 61% winratio with that hero. Stastically, if he plays Riven he will continue to gain elo and improve on this game. Players like Wickd, Froggen, Misaya, and HSGG are very well known for their signature picks are teams often simply blanket ban them. I think at Dreamhack someone pointed out how Fnatic's picks/bans were heavily geared towards simply banning Froggen out as much as possible because he so dominate on the champions he has mastered.

Having said all of this, becoming better at the game requires you to play all roles and all champions, not just one hero. Though mastering one hero is generally a good way to win lots of games.

I won my 1st Rengar Season 3 game today. I commented in chat how I felt my Rengar wasn't really up to snuff and the enemy Olaf (who was their best player) commented how I was terrible. lol. :smalltongue:

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I'm good at Teemo, good at Gangplank, good at Kayle, lousy at Draven, and have a hard time fitting Poppy into the meta.

Who else has a pocket Ghost? Apart from Zilean, that is. Never really liked his playstyle.

[Joran]

This can often form a cycle of sorts:

I like champ X -> I play X a lot -> I am good at playing X -> I win many games with X, which I enjoy -> I like champ X...

Continuing the cycle

I like champ X -> Champ X is Flavor of the Month -> Champ X is banned all the time -> I am sad...

My friend mained Blitzcrank back in the days when Overdrive slowed you as it cooled down and Doublelift said he loved Blitzcrank, but he had no place in the meta. Now he can barely get any games in as Blitzcrank in anything but Blind Normals.


I'm good at Teemo, good at Gangplank, good at Kayle, lousy at Draven, and have a hard time fitting Poppy into the meta.

Who else has a pocket Ghost? Apart from Zilean, that is. Never really liked his playstyle.

Volibear, Shyvana, Fiora, I'm sure I'm missing more.

[Lix Lorn]

So um... hey guys.
Hi KK! Nice to see you! I'd love to friend you, but I warn you I have a tendency to only play games at very capricious times, so I don't answer invites very often.


As in most things, specialization is much more valuable than general knowledge. You should be able to fill in three or four roles competently, but if you actually want to improve i'd suggest that you main two or so champions and play them whenever popular. Having a wide champion pool isn't actually very useful at most levels of play. Mains are for for people like Bischu, TiensiNoAkuma, InvertedComposer, Cruzer, Hotshot, Dyrus, Froggen, Crumbz, etc. Tons of players hit the top 50 ladder wih only a couple of champions under their belt. Filling in roles every game and playing what you feel like playing doesn't help you improve nearly as rapidly.
Having a lot of champions/roles will make you popular in groups, especially ones you play with regularly, cause then people don't have to do the same thing every game. But to get really good, you need to specialise. Of course, if you specialise too much, then if you play against people who know you, they could target you.
(Like, if I was playing vs Eld for some reason, I'd at least consider banning Anivia.)


From a casual standpoint: Its good to be able to fill every role on the team and enjoy playing each role in some fashion. Solo Queue, especially DRAFT mode means you can't always play the role you want and teamcomps mean your favorite hero might not always be the ideal pick.

From a competitive standpoint: Pick a hero and play nothing but that hero. "Best Riven NA" has played more than half of his games with Riven this season. He has a 61% winratio with that hero. Stastically, if he plays Riven he will continue to gain elo and improve on this game. Players like Wickd, Froggen, Misaya, and HSGG are very well known for their signature picks are teams often simply blanket ban them. I think at Dreamhack someone pointed out how Fnatic's picks/bans were heavily geared towards simply banning Froggen out as much as possible because he so dominate on the champions he has mastered.

Having said all of this, becoming better at the game requires you to play all roles and all champions, not just one hero. Though mastering one hero is generally a good way to win lots of games.
And there goes Toasty to say everything I did... sad face.

[ex cathedra]

Hi KK! Nice to see you! I'd love to friend you, but I warn you I have a tendency to only play games at very capricious times, so I don't answer invites very often.


Having a lot of champions/roles will make you popular in groups, especially ones you play with regularly, cause then people don't have to do the same thing every game. But to get really good, you need to specialise. Of course, if you specialise too much, then if you play against people who know you, they could target you.
(Like, if I was playing vs Eld for some reason, I'd at least consider banning Anivia.)


And there goes Toasty to say everything I did... sad face.

However, by playing Anivia Eld won lots of games, and by winning lots of games Eld gained lots of Elo, and by gaining lots of Elo Eld ensured that he'd play against more difficult opponents, such that when he *didn't* play Anivia he still had lots of competition. To an extent, you can only be as good as the people you play against. Stompings bots as a 40/0/1 Darius, past a certain point, won't actually make you better at Darius. I think that playing against people who are better than you are is easily the best way to improve yourself.

Having people target you with bans isn't a real concern for the vast majority of players and i'm not suggesting that you go and PhantomLord yourself. The fact that teams ban Anivia and Irelia every time they face CLG.EU is *good* for CLG.EU.

[Eldariel]

You know that game where enemy team gets one single kill and snowballs from it? You feel there was absolutely nothing you can do about it and the game just inevitably slips away as you get crushed in every engagement off the slight advantage the enemy got. Enemy never makes a mistake for you to capitalize on, the game's over.

Then there are these games:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2476/diana100deathsisastatis.png

No matter how many times I got ganked, I couldn't be stopped from farming. Then midgame I turned on the crank and began to kill people.
This has lead me to conclude that Stalin's famous quote "One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic." describes a League-game just fine; at some point it just doesn't matter anymore.

[Ashen Lilies]

Ugh. Those games when you're playing support to a team that is entirely not worth supporting. Go ahead MF. Charge right into that bush. It's not like we're laning against a Garen and a Teemo. :smallsigh:

Edit: And now in this new match we have a Dr. Mundo and an Evelyn, both packing Smite... :sigh:

[Forrestfire]

Some people...

Just got out of a game that I was clicking to dodge but didn't click on time.

-Teleport/Flash Morde mid starting with Regrowth Pendant
-Zilean who called support in pregame, then buys zero wards and rages at corki for not being able to last-hit when the zilean himself was autoattacking and screwing up his farm
-Corki who rages back and gets killed multiple times while typing

Why do I always get these people? :smallfrown:

Eh, I guess my luck isn't too bad. I've only had trolls/feeders in 5 of the eight I've played. Thankfully this last game only dropped my elo by 6 points, for some reason.

On the plus side, I had the privilege of playing against an extremely skilled Irelia, so that was fun.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ugh. Those games when you're playing support to a team that is entirely not worth supporting. Go ahead MF. Charge right into that bush. It's not like we're laning against a Garen and a Teemo. :smallsigh:
Also appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQa-pqkmKg#t=3m2s) :smallbiggrin:

[Ashen Lilies]

And my quest for first win of the day still goes unfulfilled... :smallsigh:

We weren't actually that bad a team. Evelynn was a decent jungler and Mundo and I (MF) managed to dominate Teemo and Sona pretty well with her help. Then Ahri fed Kat and then Kat killed us all. :smallbiggrin:

Next game!

Edit: Okay this time we have a premade Blitz + Jayce botlane and I'm midding as Lux. Hopefully this good feeling will not turn out to be a vain hope.

Edit Edit: :smallsigh: 9 losses in a row. What the actual...

[Godskook]

Haven't had much luck jungling, though I did try some Shyvana jungle last week and did fairly okay, I guess.

All your rune pages are empty(Page 1 has a little). Most junglers, especially Shyvana, are dependent on decent runes to jungle well. The major exceptions to this are basically WW, Fiddles and Nunu. Of those 3, Nunu and WW are going to enjoy S3 changes(They have AS buffs, which works really well with Machete, and are already really safe junglers) and are thus good pre-rune junglers to learn. We'll have to wait and see with Fiddlesticks.

[Winthur]

All your rune pages are empty(Page 1 has a little). Most junglers, especially Shyvana, are dependent on decent runes to jungle well. The major exceptions to this are basically WW, Fiddles and Nunu. Of those 3, Nunu and WW are going to enjoy S3 changes(They have AS buffs, which works really well with Machete, and are already really safe junglers) and are thus good pre-rune junglers to learn. We'll have to wait and see with Fiddlesticks.

Without runes, you can also take a high CC pick and be a part-time jungler by running Smite. Take a buff, gank a lane at level 2, get a frag, lane some more, take another creep with Smite. Not really the most viable way to play once you get out of early levels. Otherwise, for full clear, try WW, Nunu or Fiddlesticks.

[Silverraptor]

Oh god, Rengar is hilarious!:smallbiggrin: Especially against a vayne.

*Jump on her*

* She knocks you back with her bolt into a bush*

*Jump on her immediately afterwards*

:smallbiggrin:

[Ashen Lilies]

All your rune pages are empty(Page 1 has a little). Most junglers, especially Shyvana, are dependent on decent runes to jungle well. The major exceptions to this are basically WW, Fiddles and Nunu. Of those 3, Nunu and WW are going to enjoy S3 changes(They have AS buffs, which works really well with Machete, and are already really safe junglers) and are thus good pre-rune junglers to learn. We'll have to wait and see with Fiddlesticks.

Well with the one Shyvana game I tried did alright in the jungle... it's just that the rest of my team was so competent I didn't really have much chance for ganks. The enemy team was dying at every opportunity. :smalltongue:

[NineThePuma]

Oh god, Rengar is hilarious!:smallbiggrin: Especially against a vayne.

*Jump on her*

* She knocks you back with her bolt into a bush*

*Jump on her immediately afterwards*

:smallbiggrin:

I love when I'm running Support Rengar and the other support is running from me through the brush and pops flash while still in the bush. It's just like "... REALLY? My leap has no cool down."

[Silverraptor]

I love when I'm running Support Rengar and the other support is running from me through the brush and pops flash while still in the bush. It's just like "... REALLY? My leap has no cool down."

Yeah, I know. Its awesome!:smallbiggrin:

Also, who was it that said they won bot lane dominion against rengar as urgot? I'd like to test that out.

[NineThePuma]

Son of Zeal is the only Dominion player in the thread, methinks.

[ChaosOS]

Nope. I play almost entirely dominion, but I'm watch enough SR streams and occasionally get pulled into SR games by my IRL friends to comment on the jungle n such.

[Temotei]

Son of Zeal is the only Dominion player in the thread, methinks.

I'm pretty sure a few others play, but nobody cares so they don't post about it often or at all.

[Tychris1]

Son of Zeal is the only Dominion player in the thread, methinks.

*Raises Hand*

I play Dominion. Not exclusively mind you (SR is still my main priority) But I do still play dominion atleast once a week. Unless you mean "Pure" dominion player

[Laudandus]

Without runes, you can also take a high CC pick and be a part-time jungler by running Smite. Take a buff, gank a lane at level 2, get a frag, lane some more, take another creep with Smite. Not really the most viable way to play once you get out of early levels. Otherwise, for full clear, try WW, Nunu or Fiddlesticks.

There's a little more clearing than this, but the "one smite and lots of ganks" strategy is much closer to the current high-level jungle meta than slowly clearing with Fiddlesticks or Warwick is. Season 3 jungle changes cannot come fast enough.

[ex cathedra]

Season 3 pls. Ninja Tabi + Zephyr on Irelia, every game.


Son of Zeal is the only Dominion player in the thread, methinks.

Eldariel has been known to partake in Dominion tournaments, last time I checked. I'm under the impression that he's very good at it, compared to most players, which isn't saying a lot considering its minuscule playerbase. Still tho', he's a good source of advice on the topic.

[9mm]

The following is a rant, read at your own risk.


DO NOT ****ING PLAY ARAM UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO BE HORRIBLY, MASSIVELY STOMPED INTO THE GROUND. I SWEAR TO GOD, IF I THINK THE TEAMS ARE HORRIBLY BAD, I'M TOLD TO SUCK IT UP AND ROLL WITH IT; AFTER ALL IT'S ARAM. AND YET, THE ONE TIME THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT, IT'S A ****ING TRAGEDY AND I SHOULD FEEL BAD BECAUSE I GOT TO ROLL DOWN THE BRIDGE? NO PUT YOUR BIG BOY PANTS ON AND ROLL WITH IT, IT'S ****ING ARAM. CONSISTENCY PEOPLE, HAVE SOME.

[Silverraptor]

The following is a rant, read at your own risk.


DO NOT ****ING PLAY ARAM UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO BE HORRIBLY, MASSIVELY STOMPED INTO THE GROUND. I SWEAR TO GOD, IF I THINK THE TEAMS ARE HORRIBLY BAD, I'M TOLD TO SUCK IT UP AND ROLL WITH IT; AFTER ALL IT'S ARAM. AND YET, THE ONE TIME THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT, IT'S A ****ING TRAGEDY AND I SHOULD FEEL BAD BECAUSE I GOT TO ROLL DOWN THE BRIDGE? NO PUT YOUR BIG BOY PANTS ON AND ROLL WITH IT, IT'S ****ING ARAM. CONSISTENCY PEOPLE, HAVE SOME.


Yeah... Tryhards on murderbridge is always hilarious to watch.:smallbiggrin:

[NineThePuma]

You know.

When I said Son of Zeal was the only Dominion player, I didn't expect to get so many people trying to prove me wrong.


Next you guys are going to try and prove to me that Kayle is actually an awesome jungler or something.

[TheShrike]

Not a bad jungler, but very much not a top tier jungler.

[McDouggal]

Next you guys are going to try and prove to me that Kayle is actually an awesome jungler or something.

Yeah, about that....

EDIT: Ninja'ed. This is what I get for leaving tabs open and unattended for 15 minutes...

[Forrestfire]

So, I learned today that I'm really bad at Leona, and need to practice her a ton before I actually play her :smalltongue:

[Math_Mage]

You know.

When I said Son of Zeal was the only Dominion player, I didn't expect to get so many people trying to prove me wrong.


Next you guys are going to try and prove to me that Kayle is actually an awesome jungler or something.

*shrug* It's easy bait for people to talk about their Dominion experience or community awareness. But I won't talk about the jungle because my jungling is miserable.

[ChaosOS]

Jungle Kayle is legit. Confirmed on Saint's stream if you were wondering.

[TheShrike]

The dude jungles Ashe. also, ****ing reddit memes.

[dgnslyr]

Except Kayle feels so... outclassed by say, Malphite, who also has a point-and-click slow, a speed-up, AoE on autoattacks, and free health. Also, using Malphite's ult has to be one of the most satisfying noises in the game.

[TheShrike]

Except Kayle feels so... outclassed by say, Malphite, who also has a point-and-click slow, a speed-up, AoE on autoattacks, and free health. Also, using Malphite's ult has to be one of the most satisfying noises in the game.

Well, Kayle is (sometimes) ranged, has a big flat damage steroid on her AoE and can speed herself up without hitting something nearby. They're completely different champions with totally different kits and massively different playstyles. Saying that Malphite is similar to Kayle in any meaningful way would be one of the least accurate statements one could make that would still sound vaguely believable to someone who doesn't think.

I do agree, however, that Malphite outclasses Kayle.

[Godskook]

Next you guys are going to try and prove to me that Kayle is actually an awesome jungler or something.

In S2, Kayle maintained tier 2(which is completely respectable) on Stonewall's list all season long, pretty much. Was particularly notable prior to Jayce, since Kayle was previously the only good "ranged carry" jungler.

[NineThePuma]

...

And Now You're Going To Tell Me That Chogath Is An Awesome Support.

[Forrestfire]

Well, it's actually fairly strong if you pair him with a jungler who has a stun or strong slow. Or caitlin.

I've had some great success with kill lane Cho+Cait. Trap->rupture->kill :smalltongue:

[ChaosOS]

Between a ton of CC between Rupture and Feral Scream, and his free stats+threat from Feast, he can actually work as a protect the carry from anti-carries support. Fid probably does what cho does but better, but Cho support could definitely work, just mostly people tend to use his amazing sustain and farming in the jungle or top lane. But basically lane is about rupture threats to anyone that tries to bushcamp and just generally being a pain vs. melee supports and then rupture+feral scream is great for assisting ganks. Basically, if you expect heavy ganks coming from your jungler, Cho can shut down any chance of escape with his Q and W. Teamfights? Really bulky support with his feast that can get easy ruptures on any bruisers that are trying to dive your carries, and if you get in melee he's not going to die easily, do decent damage with his E, and then of course Feast to pierce through the high-resist anti-carries. Or, just feral scream to prevent assassins from unloading their combos.

[TheShrike]

...

And Now You're Going To Tell Me That Chogath Is An Awesome Support.


Not even close :P

[Godskook]

And Now You're Going To Tell Me That Chogath Is An Awesome Support.

Beats me, Support is The Fiery Tower's area of expertise. Wouldn't entirely surprise me though, since decent CDR-scaling + huge base damage + CC = good support, generally speaking.

[dgnslyr]

Well, Cho has hard CC followed by soft CC, free stats, and great base damage. You know who else has all of these things? Darius. He's got the hook, the slow, great base damage, and free ArPen. Of course, this would have to be a very killy kill lane to work, so he'd need an AD carry with good burst and ideally a slow, so naturally that means Draven!

Have Draven Stand Aside a guy, so Darius can hook and they both can unload their burst, and if that doesn't kill a dude, I don't know what will. Pink ward will probably be very important for this to work, though, because Darius would need it to sit in bush unmolested.

I've never tried this. In fact, I've never played either champ before. Theorycrafting!

[sonofzeal]

Let's phrase this otherwise.....


How many champs CAN'T be at least semi-viable as support?

[toasty]

Let's phrase this otherwise.....


How many champs CAN'T be at least semi-viable as support?

Vlad for one. Probably Karthus and Kassadin, Diana and Akali would have a hard time pulling it off, as would Swain, Irelia...

I could go on, but I've mentioned a few. Mostly mages.

[TheShrike]

I'll mention Warwick, mostly because he'd be almost totally useless pre-6 and not hugely useful afterwards. Stupid ASpd steroid making him actually do SOMETHING for the AD Carry pre-6.

[sonofzeal]

Vlad for one. Probably Karthus and Kassadin, Diana and Akali would have a hard time pulling it off, as would Swain, Irelia...

I could go on, but I've mentioned a few. Mostly mages.
Swain has a slow and a root though, which is a goodly amount of CC. I could see it working just as well as... well, anyone from Noxus, pretty much. They're not so hot on Support overall. In Team Noxus, Swain's my pick for Support.

[tyckspoon]

Vlad for one. Probably Karthus and Kassadin, Diana and Akali would have a hard time pulling it off, as would Swain, Irelia...

I could go on, but I've mentioned a few. Mostly mages.

The resourceless/regenerating resource ones could probably do alright in a kind of 'heal? Protect? What's that? My job is to throw damage at your face at every cooldown!' 'support'-y way. It'd be a pretty rough transition trying to maintain relevance on the way from early laning to teamfight/trying to damage people with defensive items, tho.

[ZeroNumerous]

Vlad for one.

Health gives him damage. He has no resources in lane. He heals everytime he damages the enemy. His ulti gives a team-wide damage boost versus people he hits with it. He's able to freely disengage if he goes in too deep with W, and he has free scaling damage with E.

Vlad would do fine as a support if he wasn't a much bigger threat when he has farm. He'd be a pokey-damage zoning support ala Zyra, but with less hard CC and more escapes. And frankly, his damage boosting ulti isn't something to sneeze at.

I think he'd be a viable support, but you'd have much less fun than playing him top or mid.

[Math_Mage]

Let's phrase this otherwise.....


How many champs CAN'T be at least semi-viable as support?

Udyr, Nasus, Vlad, Karthus, Shyvana, AD carries other than Ashe or Urgot or possibly Varus, Malzahar, Olaf, Skarner, and Kassadin are the champions I simply can't see succeeding against an even minimally competent team. As the competence grows, the list of workable supports shrinks.

Since Vlad in particular has been defended, let me point out that Vlad's resourcelessness simply means he can lose trades more often. In that role, he's Soraka-level poke without the heals. Heck, Soraka's CC is better than his. The only advantage is that he's still hard to gank because trollpool.

EDIT: No I did not say Viktor instead of Varus what are you talking about

[TechnOkami]

Udyr, Nasus, Vlad, Karthus, Shyvana, AD carries other than Ashe or Urgot or possibly Viktor, Malzahar, Olaf, Skarner, and Kassadin are the champions I simply can't see succeeding against an even minimally competent team. As the competence grows, the list of workable supports shrinks.

Since Vlad in particular has been defended, let me point out that Vlad's resourcelessness simply means he can lose trades more often. In that role, he's Soraka-level poke without the heals. Heck, Soraka's CC is better than his. The only advantage is that he's still hard to gank because trollpool.

Just a note: I tried support Malzahar. It didn't work. End of discussion.

[Mabn]

I saw a good support Karthus once actually. He leveled defile last and spent the entire lane phase poking with Q and using walls as crowd control. Around 10 or 15 minutes he switched lanes to scale into late game. It only worked because by the time we figured out how to handle it he was in mid, but it did work.

[Talesin]

Edit Edit: :smallsigh: 9 losses in a row. What the actual...

My worst ranked loss streak was 13 in a row. I played a few normals in between so that broke it up a little. At the time I felt hard done by but looking back on it I didn't do enough to carry the games (and built Teemo awfully).

Not that your situation is necessarily similar, I can remember a streak of 5 games where at least one person afk'd before 20 minutes. It'll happen to the other teams you play against eventually!

Also, I lost a 2v1 lane against a Morde earlier as Vayne/Ali. Everytime we'd try to do anything to him he'd get his shield up and then we just couldn't get through it. Couple of jungler ganks set us back and his armour stacking almost cost us the game.

However, once I got PD and LW up Vayne is still Vayne and I was able to carry the later teamfights to the win. Fun match.

[Zinc]

Yeah... Tryhards on murderbridge is always hilarious to watch.:smallbiggrin:

Tell that to AD Veigar vs AP Nasus. It's hilarious to watch.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Vlad for one. Probably Karthus and Kassadin, Diana and Akali would have a hard time pulling it off, as would Swain, Irelia...

I could go on, but I've mentioned a few. Mostly mages.

I know Twitch can't. He has one skill that's even remotely support, but the slow doesn't last long, and it's really most useful to drop his DoTs on a bunch of, or even just one target. If it's there, it's an okay chasing tool, but you need to drop it before the enemy leaves autoattack range.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel has been known to partake in Dominion tournaments, last time I checked. I'm under the impression that he's very good at it, compared to most players, which isn't saying a lot considering its minuscule playerbase. Still tho', he's a good source of advice on the topic.

I actually was asked onto a team again so I'll probably be playing a few tournaments the coming weeks; s'pose there might be streams available so I'll be posting the stream links here. Good thing too 'cause I was running out of RP.

[Godskook]

However, once I got PD and LW up Vayne is still Vayne and I was able to carry the later teamfights to the win. Fun match.

In a game with a Mordekaiser, that tells us nothing about which team won the game. :smalltongue:

[McDouggal]

Oh god. I had a 17:00 queue time for draft pick. 12 dodges.

When I finally got in, due to a miscommunication, I ended up playing Lee Sin mid. (I thought I was top, and Ori was mid. Ori reminded us (yes, she claimed support it early on and we forgot), and my Lee Sin went 4-0 in laning vs. Xerath (QQEEWW harass OP). 2nd weirdest game this month.

The weirdest was the one where I played Amumu support. And won lane.

[9mm]

The weirdest was the one where I played Amumu support. And won lane.

Amumu, in the right lane, can be a really strong support. It's amazing how much a strong stun, amazing teamfight utility, and limited gold dependance goes into making a good support.

[Duos]

In a game with a Mordekaiser, that tells us nothing about which team won the game. :smalltongue:

Oh boy! I sure am fed! Time to go ace the enemy team! I wonder if they're in this bush?

*Dooooom*
*Fwooosh*
*CLANG*
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA......

On an unrelated note, my folder of champion concepts keeps growing because I have nothing else to do during my free time. Current roster sits at about ten, enough for a whole match, woo. If anybody is interested in throwing some critique my way, you can find the google docs folder here. (https://drive.google.com/#folders/0BygrQA3hgKNQbHhkTFBKYUFDQ28)

[Lix Lorn]

The weirdest was the one where I played Amumu support. And won lane.
As decided last page, pretty much EVERYONE can support, :smallbiggrin:

@Duos: Wanna trade critiques? I dunno when I'll have time, but here's mine (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FGDcnRLvm_OWIIvo_o2rgM0e6sKkOcouHupl0ZMb-P8/edit)

[McDouggal]

Amumu, in the right lane, can be a really strong support. It's amazing how much a strong stun, amazing teamfight utility, and limited gold dependance goes into making a good support.

Laning against Alistar. Does that sum up the problems with that lane enough?

[Lix Lorn]

On an unrelated note, my folder of champion concepts keeps growing because I have nothing else to do during my free time. Current roster sits at about ten, enough for a whole match, woo. If anybody is interested in throwing some critique my way, you can find the google docs folder here. (https://drive.google.com/#folders/0BygrQA3hgKNQbHhkTFBKYUFDQ28)


@Duos: Wanna trade critiques? I dunno when I'll have time, but here's mine (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FGDcnRLvm_OWIIvo_o2rgM0e6sKkOcouHupl0ZMb-P8/edit)
TOTALLY not using these as motivation for working on my essay.
Barradyne
Tanky support is the idea I'm getting. Passive is interesting, tho Riot seem to be moving away from damage reduction. Q is nice fluff, a bit odd. It has high base damage, short range, and both the slows on it start really small. W looks pretty good, as is E. Does E stack with itself?
R seems potentially problematic. Thing is, to get the full value from it, one of you has to die. I get yelled at for making abilities that make dying a good battle plan-like old Kayle passive.
Love the fluff, and the bunker skin. What would Victorian look like?

Karmine
Nice backstory. Like the weapons already.
Passive looks good, although xin and kayle are glaring at you. Q looks fine, high damage. Really hope the ratio on the persistent effect is 110%AD OVER the two seconds, else it's doing 5.5AD in two seconds. ._.
Oooh. The W. This'll be the main mechanic, then...
The passive part is underwhelming. 30 range is basically nothing. That's not even half a teemo. I'd make it... 40/55/70/85/100?Not really sure. 30/47.5/65/82.5/100 perhaps.
The active is... potentially Stronk. Can the second half crit? Can it apply onhits? How will it work with the item that does the same thing? Hopefully additively (total four) and not multiplicatively for SIX...
E looks... interesting. Very difficult to use right, I imagine, since it can be an escape, but is more like an engage tool. Would make more sense as a mechanic on a melee character... isn't this two of jarvan's skills?
R is pretty awesome fluffwise, pretty fine mechanically. 800 reads like a LOT of damage, but hey, shoulda dodged. Also, with that cooldown, no-one's gonna want rank 2. :P
Skin names are intriguing. Is Webby gonna be like Eldar Warp Spiders?

[Duos]

TOTALLY not using these as motivation for working on my essay.
Barradyne
Tanky support is the idea I'm getting. Passive is interesting, tho Riot seem to be moving away from damage reduction. Q is nice fluff, a bit odd. It has high base damage, short range, and both the slows on it start really small. W looks pretty good, as is E. Does E stack with itself?
R seems potentially problematic. Thing is, to get the full value from it, one of you has to die. I get yelled at for making abilities that make dying a good battle plan-like old Kayle passive.
Love the fluff, and the bunker skin. What would Victorian look like?

Karmine
Nice backstory. Like the weapons already.
Passive looks good, although xin and kayle are glaring at you. Q looks fine, high damage. Really hope the ratio on the persistent effect is 110%AD OVER the two seconds, else it's doing 5.5AD in two seconds. ._.
Oooh. The W. This'll be the main mechanic, then...
The passive part is underwhelming. 30 range is basically nothing. That's not even half a teemo. I'd make it... 40/55/70/85/100?Not really sure. 30/47.5/65/82.5/100 perhaps.
The active is... potentially Stronk. Can the second half crit? Can it apply onhits? How will it work with the item that does the same thing? Hopefully additively (total four) and not multiplicatively for SIX...
E looks... interesting. Very difficult to use right, I imagine, since it can be an escape, but is more like an engage tool. Would make more sense as a mechanic on a melee character... isn't this two of jarvan's skills?
R is pretty awesome fluffwise, pretty fine mechanically. 800 reads like a LOT of damage, but hey, shoulda dodged. Also, with that cooldown, no-one's gonna want rank 2. :P
Skin names are intriguing. Is Webby gonna be like Eldar Warp Spiders?



On Barradyne:
Q was designed around hitting multiple champions in mind; it's definitely a teamfighting ability since it's so large. E doesn't stack with itself; recasting it just refreshes the duration. I think I put notes on abilities when they stack with themselves, a la Karmine's passive, etc. I can definitely see the ult being confusing, though; I think the burst was originally designed to be an additional deterrent but I could certainly just remove it and add additional tankiness to either Barradyne or his target.

On skins: Two words: Gothic Cathedral. :smallbiggrin:


On Karmine:

On the Q, (and on the R, natch :smalltongue:) I derped and there is an extra one where it shouldn't be. it's 10% total AD and 120 second CD, respectively. Whoops.

On W I was worried about outranging other carries, but I suppose it's an unjustified fear. Kog and Trist do exist, after all. I think I'll cut base range by a bit and have W scale to 100 bonus range. The active allows him to, essentially, attack two people at once, with all the implied critting and application of on-hits. I figure if sivir can hit five people, Karmine can hit two, as you don't really get to choose who you're shooting; just whoever is closest to your primary target. I might up the mana/auto, though, since it IS pretty strong. a choice between doing lots of damage vs having mana up for skills. Also, additive stacking, most definitely.

E is basically a short-ranged dash. Think Quickdraw or 90-caliber net, or Valkyrie. The difference is that you can cast it, move around a bit, THEN dash to your target. So you could, for example, cast it outside tower range, dive in for a kill, then reel yourself to safety. It's not quite as good as an instant escape, tho, since you have to cast it twice to get moving.

On Skins: I was looking at razor relay when I came up with that one. Think more blue and red and more THWIP. :smallwink:


Nika:
I think the story is interesting, although I'd say you don't need to involve time travel, after all, who knows what's in the Kumungu jungle? Still, good story. I like the parallel with Nunu.
Stats look ok, passive is a nice global; not too strong, but definitely noticeable.

I feel like the Q is trying to do too much, though. Stun, slow, and bleed is a lot for one ability. I'd cut two; probably the stun and the slow sinceyou already chase so well with E.

W looks good, numbers seem ok. scaling offensive stats into defensive stats is fine as long as the ratio isn't too high, this seems to hit that sweet spot really well.

E is alright; dash range is a bit on the high side but, only by like 50/100 range, so that's fine. I don't like the attack/movespeed buff, though. The duration is CRAZY high, with decent CDR it's up almost 100% of the time. I might cut it to 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.

The ult is really cool (Skellingtons!), but I do feel like you're trying to do too much with it. Again, I'd cut raptor duration, maybe to like ten seconds, and I'd ditch the active. To compensate, I'd make their attacks slow the target (maybe by 15/20/25%), to represent the raptors crippling their prey.

Carson:
I looooove the concept, since I'm a big chess fan. His passive looks really neat, although instead of having the pawns lose hp over time, I'd just give them a set duration, like Yorick ghouls or Malzahar voidlings, and you don't need to cut his AD to compensate; the pawns should be fine just by themselves. If you're worried about htem being too strong, you an always have their AD be a ratio of Carson's.

His Q is really coo,l since it allows you to command your pawns around more and have them help you fight. I like it. Range seems a bit high for a jump, though. I'd cut that by like 100. Also, I might change the speed buff to a slow that gets stronger the more pawns you have dogpiling your target. like, maybe 10%+5% per additional minion hitting the target? That seems ok to me, and it encourages clever casting to have multiple minions up.

I'll be honest, though. I don't like the W and E. I can tell you're going for a 'buff your minions' thing here, but your dudes are too short-lived to get much use out of them, and what they really do is say "Press W and E, win teamfight with massive free stats." I would revisit these, maybe look for more ways to order pawns around the battlefield, because that aspect of Carson seems really fun.

I love the ult, though. You can use it to save a dying pawn, or just cast it on CD to get a more permanent army to follow you around. I'd cut max queens to 1/2/3, though, because otherwise you have 120% bonus stats following you around, and that seems a bit high.

Revisiting the thing about commanding your dudes, I feel like this is why you need abilities that order around minions: You always have them post-6, since Queens don't die, and being a chess mastermind is more about proper positioning and less about just hitting a button and making your allies insanely strong. This guy has soooo much potential, I want to see what you can do with him! :smallsmile:

[Xiander]

I have peeked at some of those concepts, and I find them rather interesting.

My question is this; Is there any chance at all, that such concepts migt be considered by Riot Games? Or is this just A fun way to pass time?

[McDouggal]

Lix, I don't actually know enough to comment about the builds. But I love the idea of Karen. Although she looks more annoying to fight than Jax. (double gap closer, bleed. And a blink. Can that blink go to a friendly?)

[LordShotGun]

Watching IPL5. Seriously, wtf is up with all these sunfire capes. I thought we had mathematically proven that it was a bad item, yet I see everyone and their brother building them. Same thing with previous tournaments.

[Eldariel]

Watching IPL5. Seriously, wtf is up with all these sunfire capes. I thought we had mathematically proven that it was a bad item, yet I see everyone and their brother building them. Same thing with previous tournaments.

It's a great splitpush item; the AOE damage adds good pushing power to any champion. It also allows for a bruiser to itemize defense while still gaining some offense from it. I dunno who proved what and when but it's a fine item on many of the bruisers interested in the tankier itemization paths.

[Thrawn183]

When I said Son of Zeal was the only Dominion player, I didn't expect to get so many people trying to prove me wrong.


Well, according to LoLmatches it took me 10 days to go from 1500 to 1800 on dominion once I got serious about it. http://lolmatches.com/player/na/19218624/Thrawnyboy Check the normal dominion chart if you don't believe me.

Sadly, lolmatches stopped recording people's elo around that point in time, so I'll never know just how much higher I got before I burned out and drifted away from league for a while.

I can say though, that AD Veigar doesn't work above 1600 ELO on dominion. Maybe someone better than me could pull it off, but I just don't have what it takes. A shame, really. AD Veigar is hilarious.

[Duos]

I have peeked at some of those concepts, and I find them rather interesting.

My question is this; Is there any chance at all, that such concepts migt be considered by Riot Games? Or is this just A fun way to pass time?

It's mostly a just a fun way to pass the time. Riot already has several champion design people on staff, and I'm sure they have tons of ideas already. The real bottleneck isn't the concepts, it's the design resources needed to make them a reality.

That being said, We DO have a rioter who browses these threads (Hi SweetRein), although I'm pretty sure she doesn't have any say in that process. As far as I know, her expertise is in the programming end of things. Still, I do give her permission to cherrypick interesting ideas out of all the sludge i produce and throw them at the people who might find them interesting.

[Tychris1]

As decided last page, pretty much EVERYONE can support, :smallbiggrin:

@Duos: Wanna trade critiques? I dunno when I'll have time, but here's mine (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FGDcnRLvm_OWIIvo_o2rgM0e6sKkOcouHupl0ZMb-P8/edit)

@EarlNashor

YES! YEEEEEEEESSS!!!! KE KE KE KE YEAH!

Ahem

I like the idea, ever since Shyvanna came out I felt a Baron equivelant was necessary. How long do stacks of Wrath of the Ancients last anyway? I can see going pure AP with some AS built in purely to do an E+R combo. Q seems kind of weird in his kit but I guess it's his poke ability (And just another way to stack more Wrath's). I think CDR might be too strong on him (Especially late game) with his Q able to deal 13% of someone's max health every 3 seconds and getting a knockup every 4 seconds. Not to mention that with 400-500 AP (Seems easy enough to pull off) that means his Autoattacks are doing tons of damage that the enemy team hasn't itemized against (Because he's also doing tons of AP damage with his E). It feels like he's too powerfull late game but might be too weak early. Balancing it out would definetely help in making him a more interesting champion.

But I just really like champs that can do stuff all game, so maybe it's just not my style.

Anyway, GO TEAM BARON!

[ex cathedra]

It's only poor as a purely defensive item, and only then because of how ridiculous items like GA, Aegis, and Randuin's are. The passive is very strong on lots of melee champions with good MPen scaling or poor pushing power, like Shen, Malphite, Rengar, Elise, Amumu, etc. Regardless of how inefficient its defenses actually are, getting a giant's belt and a chain vest for the cost of one item slot is very valuable, especially given how well they work together. It's something of a poor tank item, but it's not a poor item in general. Make note of the difference.

[Lix Lorn]

On Barradyne:
Q was designed around hitting multiple champions in mind; it's definitely a teamfighting ability since it's so large. E doesn't stack with itself; recasting it just refreshes the duration. I think I put notes on abilities when they stack with themselves, a la Karmine's passive, etc. I can definitely see the ult being confusing, though; I think the burst was originally designed to be an additional deterrent but I could certainly just remove it and add additional tankiness to either Barradyne or his target.

On skins: Two words: Gothic Cathedral. :smallbiggrin:

I was confused by how short its length is. It's not even twice as long as it is wide.
I assumed so with E.
Yeah, I'd suggest that; or have the damage be automatic (but less) at the end of the duration.

As for the skin; well put, you earnt my RP. :P


On Karmine:

On the Q, (and on the R, natch :smalltongue:) I derped and there is an extra one where it shouldn't be. it's 10% total AD and 120 second CD, respectively. Whoops.

On W I was worried about outranging other carries, but I suppose it's an unjustified fear. Kog and Trist do exist, after all. I think I'll cut base range by a bit and have W scale to 100 bonus range. The active allows him to, essentially, attack two people at once, with all the implied critting and application of on-hits. I figure if sivir can hit five people, Karmine can hit two, as you don't really get to choose who you're shooting; just whoever is closest to your primary target. I might up the mana/aouto, though, since it IS pretty strong. a choice between doing lots of damage vs having mana up for skills. Also, additive stacking, most definitely.

E is basically a short-ranged dash. Think Quickdraw or 90-caliber net, or Valkyrie. The difference is that you can cast it, move around a bit, THEN dash to your target. So you could, for example, cast it outside tower range, dive in for a kill, then reel yourself to safety. It's not quite as good as an instant escape, tho, since you have to cast it twice to get moving.

On Skins: I was looking at razor relay when I came up with that one. Think more blue and red and more THWIP. :smallwink:

I assumed the ult was a typo. The Q makes more sense too.
Thing with W is that I don't think Sivir's bonus hits apply on-hits, or crit. Still, I have no idea how to start balancing it. xD
With using E like that, it creates what Riot would call a 'feel bad moment' where you miss out on damage. You may or may not care about this. :P

Aaaah. That was my first thought. xD Why not both? Razorwebbing is pretty cool.


Nika:
I think the story is interesting, although I'd say you don't need to involve time travel, after all, who knows what's in the Kumungu jungle? Still, good story. I like the parallel with Nunu.
Stats look ok, passive is a nice global; not too strong, but definitely noticeable.

I feel like the Q is trying to do too much, though. Stun, slow, and bleed is a lot for one ability. I'd cut two; probably the stun and the slow sinceyou already chase so well with E.

W looks good, numbers seem ok. scaling offensive stats into defensive stats is fine as long as the ratio isn't too high, this seems to hit that sweet spot really well.

E is alright; dash range is a bit on the high side but, only by like 50/100 range, so that's fine. I don't like the attack/movespeed buff, though. The duration is CRAZY high, with decent CDR it's up almost 100% of the time. I might cut it to 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.

The ult is really cool (Skellingtons!), but I do feel like you're trying to do too much with it. Again, I'd cut raptor duration, maybe to like ten seconds, and I'd ditch the active. To compensate, I'd make their attacks slow the target (maybe by 15/20/25%), to represent the raptors crippling their prey.
I think I went with the time theme mainly to facilitate the title 'Child of Time', plus to make her alone in a way that would make her join the league. Plus adopted daughter of zilean is adorable.

You're probably right with the Q, although I'm leery of removing her only CC. I may buff her ms slightly.
Wow why did I give her E that duration. O_o

Honestly, I really like the ult active; plus she has no ranged abilities besides it. it was actually made as a hybrid of Xerath and Annie's ults, if I remember correctly. I can see the point behind lowering the duration a bit, but ten seconds is just not very long.
Also, that's a point... does anyone know if China's bones thing is only human bones? Do they have jurassic kog'maw/cho'gath?


Carson:
I looooove the concept, since I'm a big chess fan. His passive looks really neat, although instead of having the pawns lose hp over time, I'd just give them a set duration, like Yorick ghouls or Malzahar voidlings, and you don't need to cut his AD to compensate; the pawns should be fine just by themselves. If you're worried about htem being too strong, you an always have their AD be a ratio of Carson's.

His Q is really coo,l since it allows you to command your pawns around more and have them help you fight. I like it. Range seems a bit high for a jump, though. I'd cut that by like 100. Also, I might change the speed buff to a slow that gets stronger the more pawns you have dogpiling your target. like, maybe 10%+5% per additional minion hitting the target? That seems ok to me, and it encourages clever casting to have multiple minions up.

I'll be honest, though. I don't like the W and E. I can tell you're going for a 'buff your minions' thing here, but your dudes are too short-lived to get much use out of them, and what they really do is say "Press W and E, win teamfight with massive free stats." I would revisit these, maybe look for more ways to order pawns around the battlefield, because that aspect of Carson seems really fun.

I love the ult, though. You can use it to save a dying pawn, or just cast it on CD to get a more permanent army to follow you around. I'd cut max queens to 1/2/3, though, because otherwise you have 120% bonus stats following you around, and that seems a bit high.

Revisiting the thing about commanding your dudes, I feel like this is why you need abilities that order around minions: You always have them post-6, since Queens don't die, and being a chess mastermind is more about proper positioning and less about just hitting a button and making your allies insanely strong. This guy has soooo much potential, I want to see what you can do with him! :smallsmile:
Thanks, but Yorick's ghouls DO lose HP over time. Still, you may have a good point.
Also, wow. W and E are boring. I SHOULD do something with that! He was my first champion design, iirc.

Hmm. If I make Q shorter duration and shorter range and lower damage, it can be a positioning tool like ori's q.

Also, Carson and Baradyne would get on so well. :smalltongue:


more soon, class now. You have good ideas!
As do you!


I have peeked at some of those concepts, and I find them rather interesting.

My question is this; Is there any chance at all, that such concepts migt be considered by Riot Games? Or is this just A fun way to pass time?
A tiny chance. I haven't heard of an official 'WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT LOOK AT THESE NEVER EVER' policy, and I assume that if they looked at one and went 'hell yes we want this in our game', then they'd go 'hey, cool dude, we can use this right' and we'd eyesparkle yes. I believe they don't go LOOKING for ideas, though. Basically, it's a theoretical possibility, but really we need to get hired by them to have a chance. :smallsmile:


Lix, I don't actually know enough to comment about the builds. But I love the idea of Karen. Although she looks more annoying to fight than Jax. (double gap closer, bleed. And a blink. Can that blink go to a friendly?)
Thanks. She's a little tongue in cheek, and her name was an accidental pun.
Her blink cannot go to an ally. I would hope that once she goes in, she finds it hard to get out again, kinda like darius.


It's mostly a just a fun way to pass the time. Riot already has several champion design people on staff, and I'm sure they have tons of ideas already. The real bottleneck isn't the concepts, it's the design resources needed to make them a reality.

That being said, We DO have a rioter who browses these threads (Hi SweetRein), although I'm pretty sure she doesn't have any say in that process. As far as I know, her expertise is in the programming end of things. Still, I do give her permission to cherrypick interesting ideas out of all the sludge i produce and throw them at the people who might find them interesting.
Yeah. If ever they run out of ideas, they might use fan ones, but it's not likely. Also, copyright issues are a theoretical issue, although I expect most of us would want no more than an admittance that it was our idea, which I expect they wouldn't mind.

Of course, if anything I do is potentially useful, I offer the same, but I doubt it. xD


@EarlNashor

YES! YEEEEEEEESSS!!!! KE KE KE KE YEAH!

Ahem

I like the idea, ever since Shyvanna came out I felt a Baron equivelant was necessary. How long do stacks of Wrath of the Ancients last anyway? I can see going pure AP with some AS built in purely to do an E+R combo. Q seems kind of weird in his kit but I guess it's his poke ability (And just another way to stack more Wrath's). I think CDR might be too strong on him (Especially late game) with his Q able to deal 13% of someone's max health every 3 seconds and getting a knockup every 4 seconds. Not to mention that with 400-500 AP (Seems easy enough to pull off) that means his Autoattacks are doing tons of damage that the enemy team hasn't itemized against (Because he's also doing tons of AP damage with his E). It feels like he's too powerfull late game but might be too weak early. Balancing it out would definetely help in making him a more interesting champion.

But I just really like champs that can do stuff all game, so maybe it's just not my style.

Anyway, GO TEAM BARON!
Hmmm. Thanks for the enthusiasm, first! I was just struck by the note that this is but a simulacrum, and the real Nashor is elsewhere. I'll admit, I have a huuuge soft spot for on-hit damage. But you make some good points!
Q has had early damage raised, late damage lowered, and early cooldown lowered. I also made W slightly delayed in its damage, with the plus of triggering passive more than once. The passive has been given a pretty long duration, since it's otherwise very difficult to actually get stacks past one. With these changes, he should be able to keep going.
As a side note, I slightly nerfed the passive: it magnifies his damage the same, but other people get much less benefit from it. Should I undo that?

@Duos again:
Lin
Did you ever watch the dodgy cartoon Legend of the Dragon? Cause she looks like Ling in my head. She also seems like she'd fit in perfectly in Noxus.

I love her passive! I think it's new! It'd like an AP passive though. 0.01%, or even 0.005%...
Q is fine!
W is fine, if slightly confusing to use.
E confuses me because poison is meant to use AP. :smalltongue:
R is also pretty cool!
What confuses me is the AP ratios. She has a couple, but they're not big enough to actually use for anything. It may just be a personal taste thing, but I prefer someone to be either pure AD, pure AP, or buildable either way.

Verdesol
Interestin'. Not my favourite archetype, but that's not a problem. Like the passive.
Q is interesting. Feel that 1 second is hardly worth it. Love the fluff on the W.
Like the E! They haven't done much that interacts with sight.
R is also pretty cool.
Where's he meant to go? I originally guessed support, but he has three damaging abilities and decent ratios. Top?

[Eldariel]

Well, according to LoLmatches it took me 10 days to go from 1500 to 1800 on dominion once I got serious about it. http://lolmatches.com/player/na/19218624/Thrawnyboy Check the normal dominion chart if you don't believe me.

Sadly, lolmatches stopped recording people's elo around that point in time, so I'll never know just how much higher I got before I burned out and drifted away from league for a while.

It's not LoLMatches; Riot removed the information from the log files and apparently adjusted the matchmaker a bit too (or more people got to the Very High Elo) since my queue times dropped by about 20-30 mins. They don't want Normal Elo available since they want to keep Normals casual and just have people enjoy the game.

Of course, given there is no Ranked Dominion, that kinda leaves competitive Dom players in a void with no way to measure their skill. Even tournaments only tell you so much since you're playing with a full premade team and thus can "get carried" by better players.

[Thrawn183]

Of course, given there is no Ranked Dominion, that kinda leaves competitive Dom players in a void with no way to measure their skill. Even tournaments only tell you so much since you're playing with a full premade team and thus can "get carried" by better players.

True, though I used to watch the weekly tournament dominatedominion ran on Saturdays. Watching Point Defense take on Owes Evelyn Child Support really showed me what Dominion was supposed to look like. Sadly ELO decay took my account to the point where people don't even get revive anymore. Ah well, at least at this ELO I can play a larger selection of heroes without gimping my team overly much.

[Duos]

Gonna separate some of the reviews, since one megahuge post seems kinda clunky.

On "Bad feel moments": Actually a really good point. I think I'm just going to remove the retraction damage entirely so people don't get the wrong idea with it.

Scribbles:
A paint mage, neat! I think his background is hilarious too. Remember kids, winners don't do drugs!

I think his passive is pretty cool, but a little complicated. I might just change it to have all summoners have reduced cooldowns, by like 10/15/20%. That seems like it would be good.

His Q is neat, although I would most definitely increase the base cooldown by at least 4 seconds and edit the CD reduction clause, since right now, it's pretty much Karthus Q when used right. I might have it so that whenever Scribbles deals damage to an enemy champion, reduce the CD by one.

His W feels strange. I mean, I love the flavor, but it just doesn't feel like it fits with the rest of his kit. Why does a mage need movespeed and HP/5? It would feel mre at home on a toplane bruiser. I would look for a different passive, maybe granting CDR or AP. I really like the active portion, though. A drawing erasing itself to escape unseen feels SO right.:smallbiggrin:

E is really neat, but I'm worried about power level. On the one hand, you can push a lane harder than anybody else since you can make one minion wave into a double wave. On the other hand, the enemy then gets double gold. I might do away with the reanimation part of the ability for simplicity's sake. I also might hit the slow duration out-of-pool a bit. Look at Singed glue, for example.

R is split. On the one hand, the passive feels kind of tacked on. It encouges you to get yourself hurt and killed, and the CD on the bonus AP means you won't ever really earn more than 20-40 AP with it per game. The active, on the other hand, is neat and simple. It's a big, long skillshot that refreshes your primary nuke for moar DPS. I like that part.

Arvance:
Another prime example of superior Noxian genetic stock. Not nearly as awesome and cool and handsome as DRaaaaaven, though. Nobody can be.:smalltongue:

Passive is really, really interesting. On the one hand it makes you really easy to itemize against. On the other, MR is inherently more expensive and has fewer itemization options than armor does. I like it, we'll see where the rest of the champion takes us.

Q: Ok. Very basic steroid, lots of As, encourages you to build damage over AS and resists over hp due to vamping for your sustain. Pretty well rounded, although the vamp is sort of negligable.

His W confused me at first, because the wording isn't very clear, but then i realized it's basically Caitlin's 90-Caliber Net, minus the slow. Seems ok, Bruisers need gapclosers.

I like the E. It allows you to tank damage, then POW, shield. IT encourages you to get into fights so your shield is worth more when you eventually pop it. I like this skill.

R is pretty straight forward. I don't know if you need the passive bonus gold for minions, since by the time you get your ult you will have already done most of oyur farming, and it's not even a whole lot of bonus gold in the first place. TF's PASSIVE gives you that much gold. I might just chop it off, for the sake of simplicity. The damage portion is pretty straightforward as well. A big old nuke with a hefty slow attached. I like it.

Other thoughts: Why does he have AP ratios? His passive makes him do lots of magic damage anyways, and his Q encourages you to be autoattacking, so you really want AD. I might cut the AP ratios altogether and increase the base damage a bit, so that way you're encouraged to build him with some tankiness instead of going the trap route of 'squishy melee guy.'

On lix's feedback:
On Lin: I flipped the ratio and damage types on Lin's W and E, because you actually do make alot of sense with poison being magic :smalltongue:
Also, personally, I feel like unless the champion is designed for it (I.E. Riven) you should never have a wasted stat on a champion.

On Verdesol: I think Q is actually pretty strong. the Regneration is fairly high, moreso with any AP, and although 20% MS may not be a lot, it's teamwide, has a short CD, and I hear Shurelia's is really, really good.:smallwink:
The plan was that he could either play support and transition into tank late game with your CC, you can go top and build bruiser due to good ratios, or you can jungle due to Q sustain, which lets you counterjungle really well due to passive and gank really well due to W.

Emelia:
Creepy but vaguely endearing fangirlism, very neat story. No real need to worry about being too high-tech, techmaturgy and hextech stuff is basically the lovechild of rule of cool and steampunk, so you're good on that front.

I DO worry about her passive, though. You really, really shouldn't break hard caps, like attack speed, since the whole game is balanced around them. I would suggest something that makes her FEEL like she's attacking really fast, like having her autoattacks being broken into two shots that both apply on-hits but do half damage. You could keep the passive as a %AS increase like regular attack speed buffs, as long as you don't go over the cap.

Q damage is nuts. With no AP, if you poke somebody five times, they take 340 damage. I would cut some base damage, cut part of the ratio, cut the number of max stacks, (probably to three) and change it to stack additively in damage instead of time, a la Darius passive.
The active portion is fine, though. A bit of burst and some soft CC is good,although i'd pick slow or blind, not both, since Q has such a short CD.

W is really confusing. I can't really comment on it until I understand what it does. Could you clarify what you're trying to do with it?

I LOVE the E. the microstealth causes people to lose aggro if they're autoing you blindly, and the silence prevents most forms of CC short of red buff and friends. Although, I might change it up a bit-a small speed boost, like 1% for the duration of the stealth, a sliiiight reduction in silence time (3 seconds is forever, if you've ever been feared by fiddles you know what i'm talking about:smalltongue:) and edit the stealth to be slightly longer-like, 0.5 seconds seems good.

I think the ult could actually be buffed a bit-decrease the wait time after casting and increase the base damage by something small, 5 or 10, and it would be perfect. Scaling off of attack speed is really cool-the more AS you're packing, the faster you deliver your burst and the less time they have to get out of the way, although I might hit the AoE size just a tad.

Nathan:
SPLOSIONS! I like the fluff. He feels like he would fit right in at the Institute of war.

The passive is really neat. Played cleverly, it allows you to compete with Sivir and MF for the title of go-to AoE carry. Fairly straightforward.

Q is a good dueling tool, although you should clarify what you mean by 'damage'. Daamge dealt? AD? attack speed? Base damage seems kind of high for a carry; I would hit the scaling on it. A good , solid skill though.

His W is a pretty nice steroid. Average AS steroid, AMAZING MS steroid; I might actually reduce the MS portion a bit, actually, and reduce the max duration a tad. Slow immunity we've seen before, blind immunity is interesting, countering teemo and graves pretty well. Would it counter Noct ult? That seems like it would be kind of lame, but it'd make him a great counterpick.

I'm not so hot on his E. Any skill you need to be dead to use feels just wrong to me, Kog and Karthus passives notwithstanding. Maybe give him another AoE centric skill? He's an AoE focused carry, after all.

The ult is really nice. I like the fact that it makes your autos go POPreally well. I might actually reduce the CD on this at later levels, actually, since it's a big part of his kit, like Draven axes.

[toasty]

Watching IPL5. Seriously, wtf is up with all these sunfire capes. I thought we had mathematically proven that it was a bad item, yet I see everyone and their brother building them. Same thing with previous tournaments.

People have already commented but: It provides HP and armor, which are both good.

35 magic damage and combining 2 good items isn't the worst thing in the world.

For instance, if you play Xin Zhao you can build Sunfires+Wits End and do lots and lots of magic and physical damage. The same is true on Darius with a Sunfire, its more magic damage. This makes it hard to itemize against you (Darius with Sunfire does moderate magic and true damage, but has pretty high physical attacks... so how do you itemize? Aegis? :smalltongue:).

Shen with Ionic Spark+Sunfire is pretty good at split pushing, as was previously mentioned.

Also: Sunfire is cool. Its like... the item Garen used to build. I still remember Sunfire Sunday and 5 tank comps with only sunfires... winning... somehow.:smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

People have already commented but: It provides HP and armor, which are both good.

35 magic damage and combining 2 good items isn't the worst thing in the world.

For instance, if you play Xin Zhao you can build Sunfires+Wits End and do lots and lots of magic and physical damage. The same is true on Darius with a Sunfire, its more magic damage. This makes it hard to itemize against you (Darius with Sunfire does moderate magic and true damage, but has pretty high physical attacks... so how do you itemize? Aegis? :smalltongue:).

Shen with Ionic Spark+Sunfire is pretty good at split pushing, as was previously mentioned.

Also: Sunfire is cool. Its like... the item Garen used to build. I still remember Sunfire Sunday and 5 tank comps with only sunfires... winning... somehow.:smalltongue:

It got raised back up to 40 damage long ago.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Critiques? I give ye: Damian Sanguerre, the Magebane
A magical "blank" that, in response to growing up in a world populated extensively and even sometimes ruled by magic, nutured an all-consuming hate for the force throughout his young life. He eventually directed this hate the way far too many frustrated young men do - by becoming a serial killer for hire, specilizing in destroying magi.
Was contracted to kill a high-ranking Summoner and, although his assassination was successful, he was bound and imprisoned - and forced to fight in the League as penance for his crimes.

Equipment: Hextech revolver (single), various hextech "Cybernetic" upgrades.

Resource: Energy
Energy Returns whenever Damian attaks from stealth - whether it be from the bush or Cloak and Revolver.

Passive: Absent in the realms of Magic:
All AP/MR-boosting items instead boost AD/Armour, and all non-true types of damage are instantly converted into physical damage.

Active 1: Wound and Mark:
Damian fires a single precision shot from his revolver, dealing physical damage and snaring his opponent for a shot duration.

Active 2: Cloak and Revolver:
Damian becomes stealthed for a short duration. His next attack deals bonus physical damage and silences his target for a short duration. While stealthed, Damain enjoys increased movement speed.

Active 3: Hobble and Drain:
Damian fires a single shot which deals bonus physical damage, and half that to the target's mana. If the target is silenced or snared, damage to mana is doubled.

Ultimate: AMP (Anti-Magic Pulse)
Damian activates a hextech inplant which deals damage in a wide area, centered on himself. The attack deals bonus physical damage based on the amount of mana missing from each struck target. All enemy champions are also silenced for a short duration.

Yes, I'm aware that the abilities (except maybe the ult) need re-naming, and numbers on said abilities need to be done. Maybe tweaking his resource a bit to run like Heat or Rage.

[knightMARE]

Speaking of the IPL, I'm currently at work and therefore unable to get any real information on whats going on. Anybody that's been watching care to give me a rundown of whats been happening? Who won, what games have been played, ridiculous plays and/or must watches etc.

I'll be you friend

[Eldariel]

Speaking of the IPL, I'm currently at work and therefore unable to get any real information on whats going on. Anybody that's been watching care to give me a rundown of whats been happening? Who won, what games have been played, ridiculous plays and/or must watches etc.

I'll be you friend

If you can open Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13zjjx/day_1_ign_proleague_season5_group_stage_live/

If not (SPOILERS!):
Group A:
Azubu Blaze beat TD
World Elite beat Fnatic

Fnatic beat TD
Azubu Blaze vs. WE yet to be played

Fnatic vs. Loser is the final match

Group B:
CLG.Prime beat Fear
CLG.EU beat Iceland

Iceland vs. Fear & CLG.EU vs. CLG.Prime next matches

Group C:
Curse.EU beat TSM
Meat Playground vs. Singapore Sentinels is yet to be played (Loser faces TSM, winner faces Curse.EU)

Group D:
M5 beat Curse.NA
Taipei Assassins beat Black Bean

M5 vs. Taipei Assassins currently underway
Curse.NA beat Black Bean

Disclaimer: This post probably won't be updated unlike the Reddit thread.

[Lix Lorn]

Scribbles
Hee, thanks.

Might... all be good suggestions. Passive and Q changed.
The W gives MANA regen, not health. It's to allow him to sustain a little, since I wanted him to be more sustained in his damage.

Honestly simplicity is not my desire here. The entire point of that ability is the minion-steal.
I think I used singed for reference. I did something like half the slow, make it slightly more persistent when it got you but a shorter time is lasted on the ground... will lower more.

Bah. I tried making it less dangerous by giving it the mass damage trigger. How about this incarnation?
The idea is for the pun. Feedback as in ideas for art, feedback as in LIGHTNING.

Arvance
I got yelled at when I gave him higher vamp xD Tried to clear up W. Thanks on E.
The ult gives the gold mainly because why not. It just seemed better to include it than to not. xD
As for the AP ratios... he's armed with Gunblades. It was necessary! :smallwink:

feedback feedback
Fair enough! xD

Emelia
Fangirling is fun. (giggle)

(sigh) Yeah, I may have to finally accept that I can't do that.
Besides, it's nearly impossible to hit cap anyway. I'mma steal your idea. :smalltongue:
Aha!
If you poked someone with the Q five times, they'd take 34 damage x5, over ten seconds. Regardless, editing for the new passive nerfed it slightly. xD
W was intensely complex. I gave up on the complex part.
Thanks! I lowered the silence to 2s at max, but I made the stealth equal duration. She has no blink, so it shouldn't be TOO obnoxious.
R underpowered? Hooray for buffs! Now, let me just put them on the PBE for playtest-oh.

Nathan
I love Nathan.
Suggestion taken on damage on Q, debuff clarified. :)
W MS lowered a little, along with duration
I do not want to change the E. Originally, it was a 'use ability to die', but both gameplay concerns and terrorist comparisons made that idea go away. If you think about it, this IS Kog's passive.

Barnabus
Everything works beautifully. He is a top-down concept. xD

@Thanatos: I have NO idea how to balance that passive. Like, at all. I expect there probably is a way, but I don't know what it is. xD

[TheShrike]

That mana reduction skill is basically the worst idea for a fun game. It basically means his lane opponent never gets to use spells, ever. Consider the fact that he can build the AP bruiser itemization (Zhonya's, Deathcap, Abyssal, Rylai's) and with a base of ~100 AD will hit over 600 AD. Even at 0.5 bonus AD scaling with a really low base damage, you're still taking over 250 mana from them every time you use the skill. It would take 3-4 uses of that skill to completely drain the mana pool of most bruisers, and as all his MR itemization goes to armour, I feel like he'd be a stronger Counter Bruiser Bruiser Newguy than a mage-slayer.


Also, just pick Vlad/Morde/Lee Sin/AD Kennen/Support Shen. What do you do now? :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

True, though I used to watch the weekly tournament dominatedominion ran on Saturdays. Watching Point Defense take on Owes Evelyn Child Support really showed me what Dominion was supposed to look like. Sadly ELO decay took my account to the point where people don't even get revive anymore. Ah well, at least at this ELO I can play a larger selection of heroes without gimping my team overly much.

Normal is a pain. For some reason I lost 8 out of 11 games with Diana today, just 'cause there was that one Crit Olaf in one game, Locket/Shurelya Singed in another, DC in a third and so on and so forth; I just seems impossible to get teams without trolls or otherwise just ****ty players that have no business being in 2k+ Elo (tho I'm guessing they're perfectly capable of playing well and just decided to troll). *sigh*

[Thanatos 51-50]

@Thanatos: I have NO idea how to balance that passive. Like, at all. I expect there probably is a way, but I don't know what it is. xD
I may have written it wrong. I was trying to word it in such a way as to do little but make Magic pen USELESS.


That mana reduction skill is basically the worst idea for a fun game. It basically means his lane opponent never gets to use spells, ever. Consider the fact that he can build the AP bruiser itemization (Zhonya's, Deathcap, Abyssal, Rylai's) and with a base of ~100 AD will hit over 600 AD. Even at 0.5 bonus AD scaling with a really low base damage, you're still taking over 250 mana from them every time you use the skill. It would take 3-4 uses of that skill to completely drain the mana pool of most bruisers, and as all his MR itemization goes to armour, I feel like he'd be a stronger Counter Bruiser Bruiser Newguy than a mage-slayer.


Also, just pick Vlad/Morde/Lee Sin/AD Kennen/Support Shen. What do you do now? :smalltongue:

I believe the standard balance for such a thing is to make it resource-intensive or give it a long cooldown, likely both.

Also: the lack of methods for dealing with non-mana characters is a little bit intentional, a little bit I-have-no-idea-how-to-make-this-work. Instinctual answer is a roughly equivilent percentage, but that still leaves Rumble and the coldown-only champions like Garren and Katarina.

[Litewarior]

That mana reduction skill is basically the worst idea for a fun game. It basically means his lane opponent never gets to use spells, ever. Consider the fact that he can build the AP bruiser itemization (Zhonya's, Deathcap, Abyssal, Rylai's) and with a base of ~100 AD will hit over 600 AD. Even at 0.5 bonus AD scaling with a really low base damage, you're still taking over 250 mana from them every time you use the skill. It would take 3-4 uses of that skill to completely drain the mana pool of most bruisers, and as all his MR itemization goes to armour, I feel like he'd be a stronger Counter Bruiser Bruiser Newguy than a mage-slayer.


Also, just pick Vlad/Morde/Lee Sin/AD Kennen/Support Shen. What do you do now? :smalltongue:

If I recall correctly, old Wit's End was also intended as an anti-mage item with mana burn instead of magic resist, but instead ended up being amazing vs tanks and bruisers.

[Nadevoc]

Thanatos: That champion design is very, very problematic, in my opinion.

Passive: Hugely problematic. First, is it a 1:1 conversion ratio? AP is cheaper point for point than AD, so giving a straight conversion is a problem. Secondly, stacking resistances becomes very powerful because they stack and you end up with 400 resist that applies to ALL incoming damage. Part of what balances resists is that they only work on about half of incoming damage. Second, this COMPLETELY shuts down mages. There is no counterplay. They can't build any penetration without going way out of their way. I understand that this is supposed to be a counter to mages, but super hard counters are just no fun to play against.

Energy: I'm assuming you mean the ninja energy resource?

Q: Alright, basic nuke with snare

W: Again, fine, not much to say

E: Damage to mana is a mechanic that was removed from the game (Wit's End used to have it). It might be okay to be added in a champ-specific case, but it's screwy. One, resourceless or alternative resource champs ignore it. Second, mages ignore it. Yeah, you read that right. Who it really ends up screwing over is people like Rammus who have a small mana pool and don't build mana; old WE ended up not really affecting mages because their pool was large enough that it didn't affect them much. And for people like Rammus, it's extremely anti-fun. If you're a champ that relies on abilities to do anything, and then you're not allowed to use any abilities, the game because extremely lame.

R: Fine, but that's a second skill that is worthless against resourcless/alternate resource champs, which I struggle with

[toasty]

Hey look CLG is playing Shield Twitch, the strategy they used to get Morgana, Twitch, Shen, Janna and Chogath nerfed 2 years ago.

Now they're playing Protect the Twitch with Ori, Shen, Lulu, and Nunu.

[Wolf_Haley]

Protect the X Compcs are fun, Protect the Vayne on TT is a personal favorite.

[Math_Mage]

Hey look CLG is playing Shield Twitch, the strategy they used to get Morgana, Twitch, Shen, Janna and Chogath nerfed 2 years ago.

Now they're playing Protect the Twitch with Ori, Shen, Lulu, and Nunu.

And CLG.EU is playing "How can you protect anyone from all this 1k-range damage?" Pokin' out NA all day.

[Thrawn183]

Normal is a pain. For some reason I lost 8 out of 11 games with Diana today, just 'cause there was that one Crit Olaf in one game, Locket/Shurelya Singed in another, DC in a third and so on and so forth; I just seems impossible to get teams without trolls or otherwise just ****ty players that have no business being in 2k+ Elo (tho I'm guessing they're perfectly capable of playing well and just decided to troll). *sigh*

That's a significant portion of why I started to play a lot of blitzcrank on solo queue dominion. So many people want to play the hero role that they just ignore crowd control. It's the same reason I started to pretty much only play support in SR about a year ago.

I just found that it's easier to get a decent team by embracing the least chosen role so no one get's angry or has to pick a role they're terrible with.

Edit: HotshotGG's tears are the nectar of the gods.

[Duos]

More reviews:

Selene:
Ok, creepy hivemind vibe. Alright, I like the flavor.

The passive is good. It rewards you for safe play, and it isn't too strong.

The Q is good; I'd imagine it would move about the same speed as Anivia Q for balance reasons. Good flavor, too.

W is kind of a no-no; Any snare longer than 2 seconds should not be point and click, it should not have 400 base damage, and it shouldn't grant 50% spellvamp. I'd cut the spellvamp and either spread the damage out over the snare or just frontload it. Either way, I'd heavily reduce the damage.

E is neat. It's like Vlad's pool, right? I might cut the AoE damage vulnerability; drawbacks on abilities kind of feel bad. I'd also up the CD buy quite a bit, since untargetability is really, really strong.

R is like a hybrid of MAlz ult andCho'gath ult. I can dig it, although the stacks it gives each grant a ton of free stat, I might cut some of them and change the remainder from percentage to flat stats jsut to make them easier to balance.

Karen:
I'll be honest, her lore reads like bad fanfic. It was kind of painful.

Passive looks good. It makes her naturally tanky.

Her Q is pretty good, fairly straightforward. A dash on that low of a CD worries me, but Riven is a champion that exists, so eh.

The damage portion of W is fine, but the healing is waaaay to high. I would definitely nerf it.

E is has the same problems that Nika's Q had: It's trying to do too much. It's a blink that snares, blinds, shields, and does damage. Cut three out of five and it will be ok.

R has a HUGE range and a massive pull. The damage AoE is really small compared to the pull AoE, and there's no listed duration, so I'm assuming 2-3 seconds. It's a really high AD ratio, so I might change it a bit. I would change the pull range, decrease it a bit. I'd also up the CD a bit, since that's a REALLY low cooldown for such a powerful forced movement ability.

[Qwertystop]

Karen:
I'll be honest, her lore reads like bad fanfic. It was kind of painful.

Passive looks good. It makes her naturally tanky.

Her Q is pretty good, fairly straightforward. A dash on that low of a CD worries me, but Riven is a champion that exists, so eh.

The damage portion of W is fine, but the healing is waaaay to high. I would definitely nerf it.

E is has the same problems that Nika's Q had: It's trying to do too much. It's a blink that snares, blinds, shields, and does damage. Cut three out of five and it will be ok.

R has a HUGE range and a massive pull. The damage AoE is really small compared to the pull AoE, and there's no listed duration, so I'm assuming 2-3 seconds. It's a really high AD ratio, so I might change it a bit. I would change the pull range, decrease it a bit. I'd also up the CD a bit, since that's a REALLY low cooldown for such a powerful forced movement ability.
I looked at Karen too, I'm confused.
How does a passive that makes autos happen without stopping movement cause tankiness? It makes her better at chasing, yes, but tanky?

[Eldariel]

That's a significant portion of why I started to play a lot of blitzcrank on solo queue dominion. So many people want to play the hero role that they just ignore crowd control. It's the same reason I started to pretty much only play support in SR about a year ago.

I just found that it's easier to get a decent team by embracing the least chosen role so no one get's angry or has to pick a role they're terrible with.

I have specific champs I need to practice up on for tournaments so I don't have the luxury of optimizing my win chances in normal queue. Back when I only spammed Kassadin-games (this is in the days of old Gunblade Jax, Akali & co. mind so he wasn't really considered that strong) I hit 2.5k and was winning over 2/3rd of my matches.

[Joran]

Wow... M5 vs. Curse.NA.

Holy crap! AP Yi Pentakill...

[Eldariel]

Karma at IPL! <3 SGS! Let's see if TSM can handle what TPA couldn't the first time around.

EDIT: So. Misaya on TF, Froggen on Anivia. Dem WR1s.