Happy Monkday

[limejuicepowder]

Since it's mon(k)day, I figured I'd honor the tradition of bringing up everyone's favorite worst class with this thought challenge -

At what level can a monk stand a decent chance of beating a wizard?

I think we're all in agreement that at level 20, a wizard doesn't lose unless he wants to. I think we're also in agreement that most games don't involve writing "level 20" on your character sheet. So, for sake of perhaps more applicable knowledge, when can a monk beat a wizard in, say, a best of 7 series?

Rules -
Pure monk and pure wizard, no multiclassing. Level is up to you; we want the monk to win though.

Going along with the theme of characters that would actually see play, the comparison (or build, if you go that far) should be reasonable builds that aren't built special to win this specific fight.

Also, let's not bring tiers, or versatility, in to this. Even if we find a sweet spot for the monk where he can win at least the majority of the time, he's still going to be a lower tier and will still be not as useful to most parties. We all know this, and it's not the point of the exercise.

Anyways, for my guess I'm saying around level 3 or 4. The monk's saves should give him a good chance against the popular low-level spells like sleep, and I don't see the wizard winning a damage race. Summons are going to be weak; the monk should be able to smack those down. Spell slots are also still a concern at this level.

Level 5 is the end for the monk though; once 3rd level spells are on the table it's all over.

[Juntao112]

I'd say before level 9, when CoP abuse and Commune shenanigans become viable.

[ahenobarbi]

Are alternate class features available? If wizard can give up familiar to get animal companion monk is screwed at all levels.

EDIT: What are conditions of the fight? Arena?

[Deepbluediver]

I've seen this argument before, and (IMHO) at nearly all levels it pretty much boils down to who hits first.

The Wizard has the clear advantage, but if the two start standing toe-to-toe, without any buffs or other abilities running, then a monk can kill a wizard in a reasonably straightforward manner.

Of course, the more you build towards fighting a specific class, or the more prep-time there is before the fight begins, or the more items you can use, the further the balance shifts away from the monk and towards the wizard.

[Ashtagon]

Even at 1st level, a wizards gonna have a save or suck spell available. Call it sleep. Or any of a handful of others. The point is, it exists. Base save DC will be 10 + spell level + Int modifier. Which basically means DC 15 at L1, rising from there. L1 monk can expect a save mod of +2 (base) with an arbitrary additional +1 from having points invested in Wisdom.

As levels rise, both characters can expect save bonuses, save booster items, spell DC checks, and DC boosters to rise. These will approximately cancel out.

So each round the wizard can cast his save or suck/die, there is a 60% chance the monk simply loses.

In other words, if wizard wins initiative, wizard can expect to win, at any level.

If monk wins initiative, monk can expect to wail on wizard, and maybe can one-shot him. If he doesn't one-shot the wizard, wizard can expect to win.

Assuming equal initiative bonuses and 100% success for the monk one-shotting the wizard (only really feasible up to L6 if that), the odds are still 55% for the wizard.

My money is on the wizard, at ANY level.

[Menzath]

If the monk has the better spot/hide checks, can win pre 4 every fight with a sling and some good tactics. at least imo.
But @ 5 when wiz gets 3rd level spells.. Although invis(2nd lvl spell?) is also a tough one to counter, it can be done though.

edit:Terrorbad spelling.

[Randomguy]

Power word pain means that the monk will have to be very constitution focused in order to stand a chance, otherwise all fights will end in a draw at best, since at lower levels the monk has too few hp to survive the spell and at higher levels the wizard has too many other advantages. At least it's an enchantment spell, so most optimized wizards will ban the school.

[ahenobarbi]

The Wizard has the clear advantage, but if the two start standing toe-to-toe, without any buffs or other abilities running, then a monk can kill a wizard in a reasonably straightforward manner.

No abilities running is reasonable assumption in a surprise low-level encounter. But starting close is rather unrealistic assumption. And longer starting distance works in favor of wizard.

[Gwendol]

Grapple can do it at low levels. Powerword Pain will end the battle every time though if the wizard has it prepared. If the monk can manage to stun, grapple and muffle the wizard he wins.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wizards will most likely win initiative every encounter, even at low levels you have access to nerveskitter which is a +5 IIRC, add that they can get Improved Initative virtually for free (trading Scribe scroll for it as per UA variant) and a wizard will have a base mod of +6 (assuming 14 dex) with the possibility of increasing it to +11. I want to see a monk beat that check reliably.

[ahenobarbi]

Grapple can do it at low levels. Powerword Pain will end the battle every time though if the wizard has it prepared. If the monk can manage to stun, grapple and muffle the wizard he wins.

Unless wizard has Abrupt Jaunt and can teleport from grapple as immediate action. Or traded familiar for animal companion which can easily kill monk while he grapples wizard. Or he took octopus familiar and thus can grapple quite well.

[Saidoro]

If the monk burns a feat on a decent 2-handed weapon and sticks his high score in strength he can reasonably expect to one-shot the wizard at low levels if he wins initiative. And it all goes downhill from there.

[Ashtagon]

If the wizard burns a feat on a decent 2-handed weapon and sticks his high score in strength he can reasonably expect to one-shot the wizard at low levels if he wins initiative. And it all goes downhill from there.

Well, yeah. CDG on yourself is a sure thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

Shouldn't a low-level character trying to kill a wizard just stalk the wizard, wait for him to rope trick, then smoke him out of it during the night? It doesn't take a miracle to disrupt 8 hours of rest. As long as the wizard doesn't Spot you (not hard to achieve at very low level), you can set the fire or whatever and then move away. The wizard will still have the spells he prepared the previous day, but he won't have rope trick (unless he has a scroll).

In any case, a surprise round is feeling like the best option for the monk. Hide and Move Silently on a low-level wizard aren't too hard to pull off. I'm trying to think of a way to make the halfling monk plausible, and the racial substitution level allows skirmish damage. If there is a martial monk variant allowed, then it may be possible to get proficiency in the halfling warsling, which may increase the likelihood of the halfling getting a killing shot in on the wizard.

The other route requires stunning the wizard. Also not too hard, but closing with the wizard may be difficult. Again, a cleverly set ambush point can set the tables against the wizard. Only plausible at low-level, as well.

Killing the familiar and retreating may also be a good strategy, though the monk is going to be pretty vulnerable in the meantime. Would give a nice advantage if you could pull it off, though.

If it's arena style, no surprise, race to initiative, then the wizard is probably going to have more tricks and win the race. The chances skew dramatically toward the wizard in this chance.

[Guizonde]

a level 1 wizard can reasonably expect to be scragged in close combat by anything, if we're going the d4 hp way. the monk is not at an advantage in any case, but i'd say up to level 5 included, a monk still has his chances if he doesn't think "crunch" but thinks "fluff". crunching numbers is all fun and games, until a "weak" class goes in and bypasses them entirely. bottlenecks, tarpits, traps, caltrops, distractions. all of these can be fluffed with no need for numbers. going by pure stats, i'd say the monk has 'til level 2 to win in a straight fight. same goes for arenas. give both players the ability to use their environment, and the monk's survivability rises exponantially.

(i should know about this, my group has taught me not how to optimize, but how to use the stupid little ideas to wipe the floor with too high a danger level. you can win with litteraly just darkvision, for instance. hell, my cleric is best buddies with a monk who routinely is both our frontline AND our rogue's eyes and ears! distractions are a godsend for monks)

[Pickford]

Since it's mon(k)day, I figured I'd honor the tradition of bringing up everyone's favorite worst class with this thought challenge -

At what level can a monk stand a decent chance of beating a wizard?

All things being equal (no gear taken in account, no feats beyond obvious monk choice of stunning fist, no stats):

Level 1:
Monk saves vs spells: +2; Unarmed Damage 1d6 (ave: 3); hp: 6
Wizard saves vs fort : +0; hp: 4

Round 1
Probability of wizard killing monk: 1 in 12 (max damage chill touch or shocking grasp with a 50/50 chance of hitting an AC 10 monk)
Monk killing wizard: 1 in 4 (roll of 4, 5, or 6 on unarmed with same chance of hitting AC 10 wizard), chance of wizard resisting a stunning fist from lvl 1 monk: 50%. Note, if this occurs, the monk wins hands down, the mage is toast.

Unfortunately for the mage, the monk's saves scale faster than the mages. Meaning: a monk will have a better chance of landing stunning fist on a mage, than a mage will of landing 'any' spell allowing a save on a monk.

Frankly, the tipping point where things start getting really bad for a mage is ~13th level. At this point a mage has a +4 fort save, and a monk will land a stunning fist 60% of the time, whereas the monk will not even be touched by spells allowing SR 50% of the time, on top of that a monk will make a save vs the highest level spell a wizard can cast (7th) 55% of the time, with increasing percentages for spells of lower levels. Meaning if a spell allows sr and save there's only ~27% chance of it working and the wizard has wasted their turn. (actually a lower chance if it's an enchantment)

By 15th level if the monk gets a hit on the wizard they have a 60% chance of not just stunning, but also outright killing the wizard. A wizard who casts finger of death on the monk however (assuming the AoO doesn't interrupt the casting and/or kill the wizard) will fail outright 50% of the time (yay SR) or be limited to 18-36 60% of the time, with a net 20% chance of success.

Not bad, but not nearly as good, and things don't exactly get better when you factor in magic items allowing a monk to pickup an additional 5 to saves and more through dex/con/wis enhancements.

Provided they actually fight (and the mage doesn't flee on sight) the monk seems far more likely to win.

[ArcturusV]

What mage uses Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp, etc, as his spell at level 1? More realistic is Grease, Color Spray, Sleep. If they work, it's a Win. DC is going to be higher than a mere 50/50 chance. Probably DC 14 at the very least, presuming no feat choices or other effects that jack up DC. So 60% chance of just ending the fight. As opposed to something like an 8% chance based on your basis of the wizard using pretty much the least optimal options available to him.

[Story]

Why would the Monk bother with that when he can just use biological warfare? And if that doesn't work, the DM is arbitrarily screwing you over anyway.

[Randomguy]

All things being equal (no gear taken in account, no feats beyond obvious monk choice of stunning fist, no stats):

Level 1:[SPOILER]
Monk saves vs spells: +2; Unarmed Damage 1d6 (ave: 3); hp: 6
Wizard saves vs fort : +0; hp: 4

Round 1
Probability of wizard killing monk: 1 in 12 (max damage chill touch or shocking grasp with a 50/50 chance of hitting an AC 10 monk)
Monk killing wizard: 1 in 4 (roll of 4, 5, or 6 on unarmed with same chance of hitting AC 10 wizard), chance of wizard resisting a stunning fist from lvl 1 monk: 50%. Note, if this occurs, the monk wins hands down, the mage is toast.

Unfortunately for the mage, the monk's saves scale faster than the mages. Meaning: a monk will have a better chance of landing stunning fist on a mage, than a mage will of landing 'any' spell allowing a save on a monk.

Frankly, the tipping point where things start getting really bad for a mage is ~13th level. At this point a mage has a +4 fort save, and a monk will land a stunning fist 60% of the time, whereas the monk will not even be touched by spells allowing SR 50% of the time, on top of that a monk will make a save vs the highest level spell a wizard can cast (7th) 55% of the time, with increasing percentages for spells of lower levels. Meaning if a spell allows sr and save there's only ~27% chance of it working and the wizard has wasted their turn. (actually a lower chance if it's an enchantment)

By 15th level if the monk gets a hit on the wizard they have a 60% chance of not just stunning, but also outright killing the wizard. A wizard who casts finger of death on the monk however (assuming the AoO doesn't interrupt the casting and/or kill the wizard) will fail outright 50% of the time (yay SR) or be limited to 18-36 60% of the time, with a net 20% chance of success.

Not bad, but not nearly as good, and things don't exactly get better when you factor in magic items allowing a monk to pickup an additional 5 to saves and more through dex/con/wis enhancements.

Provided they actually fight (and the mage doesn't flee on sight) the monk seems far more likely to win.

Yes, because clearly no wizard has ever heard of Power Word Pain, which would one shot any monk at level 1, no save. Not to mention a dozen other possibilities. And of course, it would be downright wasteful for a wizard to bother learning any spell that boosts saving throws, or buy an item that does that.

[Draz74]

I'm pretty sure a Level 8 Monk stands a pretty good chance against a Level 2 wizard ... :smallwink:

[Gwendol]

If the wizard has abrupt jaunt and/or powerword pain, the monk will have a nearly impossible task of winning. If not, as I said, stun followed by grapple will likely be his best bet.

OTOH, this just shows the potential power of the wizard, and in no way reflects on any weakness of the monk. Any low-level pc or monster will have a hard time against that wizard.

[Rejusu]

Frankly, the tipping point where things start getting really bad for a mage is ~13th level.

No, at this point the monk is already hosed. Like he was at fifth level once third level spells came out on to the field. Your entire post assumes that the wizard doesn't know how to play. You base a lot of it on how well the Wizard can resist the Monks attacks yet any smart Wizard won't give the monk an opportunity to attack.

At fifth level a Wizard can fly, how is a Monk supposed to stunning fist an airborne target? Meanwhile the Wizard can just rain fireballs on him with relative impunity. Even at level 3 a wizard has access to levitate and invisibility, both viable for avoiding attacks.

Yes in a straight damage contest a Monk might stand a chance. But it's not realistic because any fight between a monk and a Caster won't come down to that. Wizards have a great number of options for controlling a fight. Assuming that they simply won't use any of them is just silly.

[mattie_p]

Just a word here on Power Word Pain. See what I did there?

What were the designers thinking to make that a level 1 spell? That spell essentially does an average of 35 points of damage over 10 rounds to anything less than 50 hp. (1d6 (avg 3.5) x 4d4 (avg 10) = 35 ) It's a slow death, but it is death nonetheless.

[Gwendol]

Yup, it's one of those mysteries of game design and intent.

[Randomguy]

Let's actually take some time and list the ways that a level 13-15 wizard could beat a monk of the same level, since only one was listed, and that one involved fireballs which monks can evade, so I don't think Pickford will be convinced.

I'll start:


Quickened True Strike + metamagicked Orb of X.
Phantom Steed + keep out of reach + Blasty Spells.
Solid Fog or Black Tentacles + Vortex of Teeth + Dispel Freedom of Movement (if necessary).
Acid Fog.
Metamagicked Doom Scarabs.
Summon monsters good at Grappling (Elephants from SM7 have +26, Crocodiles from SM5 have +21.)
Fly up + Dispel Monk's flight item + drop blocks of steel made with fabricate, shrunk with shrink item.

[mattie_p]

Since Schrodinger's wizard seems to be in full effect, I suggest we use the sample NPCs helpfully provided by WoTC in the DMG, pages 125 to 126. Level 5 and Level 10. This seems to be in accordance with the rules provided in the OP:


Rules -
Pure monk and pure wizard, no multiclassing. Level is up to you; we want the monk to win though.

Going along with the theme of characters that would actually see play, the comparison (or build, if you go that far) should be reasonable builds that aren't built special to win this specific fight.

The sample NPC monks are at levels 5 and 15 (p 118). Can the sample level 5 monk beat the sample level 5 wizard?

[Karnith]

Can the sample level 5 monk beat the sample level 5 wizard?
Well, to be fair, the sample wizard is (for some reason) a drow, meaning that the level 5 wizard has an ECL of 7, so it's not strictly a fair fight.

[Story]

{{scrubbed}}

[strider24seven]

Just a word here on Power Word Pain. See what I did there?

What were the designers thinking to make that a level 1 spell? That spell essentially does an average of 35 points of damage over 10 rounds to anything less than 50 hp. (1d6 (avg 3.5) x 4d4 (avg 10) = 35 ) It's a slow death, but it is death nonetheless.

I personally believe that it was mixed up with Power Word Distract (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/power-word-distract--3086/)

As to the monk vs wizard:
*sigh*

Several factors I tend to assume:
-Setting: Straight up duel, i.e. flat demiplane, both combatants separated by 30 ft (or anything longer than either combatant's reach but smaller than or equal to both combatants' movespeed).
-No advanced knowledge of combatants, no preparation time. Combatants have spells, effects, and items active which they would normally have active at the beginning of the day
-Both combantants fully rested
-No WBL-mancy. Items are restricted to basic effects... i.e. +1 weapon to penetrate DR/magic, FoM, True Seeing, and Flight when available. No crafting. No custom items. No items that grant feats or the benefits of feats. No magical locations. Items tend to be more powerful than characters, and should not be used to measure classes. I am personally on the fence about initiative boosters.
-No Planar Binding, etc. Permanent called creatures make this entire discussion irrelevant. Since an appropriately-CR'd demon can probably kill a monk several HD higher than himself, I tend to bar these from wizard combatants.
-Monk plays as a monk, wizard plays as a wizard. i.e. Monk 20 doesn't mean that the monk takes Magical Training, Eldritch Corruption, Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Extra Slot 3 times and persists Shapechange and memorizes a few extra Celerities.
That is not Monk vs Wizard. That is Faux Wizard vs Wizard.
Now, some factors that wildly swing the balance of the battle:
-ACF's. Monk's can get Wildshape from Dragon Magazine. This makes them suck significantly less by turning them into a 1/3-power druid at low-mid levels. As does Invisible Fist. However, wizard ACF's outright win the duel in favour of the wizard. Abrupt Jaunt or Animal Companion make it nigh-impossible for the Monk to defeat the wizard. The former makes the wizard impossible to hit, the latter gives him a beatstick that is *at worst* equivalent to the monk.
-Splatbook availability. This is the general case of the above. Nearly every book ever printed has wizard spells. Not every book has nice things for monks. Certain splatbooks offer spells that allow the monk zero chance of victory. Notable offenders are Orb of X, Fleshshiver, (Greater) Celerity, or any book with monsters (polymorph>wild shape).
-Silly combos. Wizards have many of them, Monks have almost none (the ones they do have are generally available to everyone). Notable offenders include Domain Wizard+Versatile Spellcaster+Elven Generalist.


In my experience:
My playgroup has run a bunch of tests of Wizard vs X using the above stipulations.
Most recently:
Wizard of X level vs Fighter 10. X is the smallest possible integer where the wizard can attain greater than 2/3 chance of victory. X was found to be 1 in the case of a focused enchanted vs an ubercharger.
Wizard of X level vs Fighter 20. X is the smallest possible integer where the wizard can attain greater than 2/3 chance of victory. X was found to be 7 with a focused conjurer vs an ubercharger.
Wizard 10 vs Fighter X. X is the greatest possible integer where the wizard can attain a greater than 2/3 chance of victory. X was found to be 30 with a focused conjurer vs an ubercharger.
Wizard 20 vs Fighter X. X is the greatest possible integer where the wizard can attain a greater than 2/3 chance of victory. The highest we got was 50 before we gave up.

[pbdr]

Just a word here on Power Word Pain. See what I did there?

What were the designers thinking to make that a level 1 spell? That spell essentially does an average of 35 points of damage over 10 rounds to anything less than 50 hp. (1d6 (avg 3.5) x 4d4 (avg 10) = 35 ) It's a slow death, but it is death nonetheless.

Just one of MANY very broken non-core spells, effects, classes, etc..... It's called power creep, and it sucks the life out of the game.

[Deepbluediver]

Just a word here on Power Word Pain. See what I did there?

:smallsigh:

Your "jokes" make my head hurt.


I personally believe that it was mixed up with Power Word Distract (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/power-word-distract--3086/)

That...actually makes sense.

Alternatively, my group thought that it was supposed to be non-lethal damage, since pain is not, by itself, deadly.



In my experience:
My playgroup has run a bunch of tests of Wizard vs X using the above stipulations.
Most recently:
Wizard of X level vs Fighter 10. X is the smallest possible integer where the wizard can attain greater than 2/3 chance of victory. X was found to be 1 in the case of a focused enchanted vs an ubercharger.
Wizard of X level vs Fighter 20. X is the smallest possible integer where the wizard can attain greater than 2/3 chance of victory. X was found to be 7 with a focused conjurer vs an ubercharger.
Wizard 10 vs Fighter X. X is the greatest possible integer where the wizard can attain a greater than 2/3 chance of victory. X was found to be 30 with a focused conjurer vs an ubercharger.
Wizard 20 vs Fighter X. X is the greatest possible integer where the wizard can attain a greater than 2/3 chance of victory. The highest we got was 50 before we gave up.

That's some rather impressive analysis. :smalleek:

[shaikujin]

I'd say it's most advantages for a monk at level 2.

At level 2, monks get +3 to all saves, second bonus feat, evasion and flurry's penalty is reduced to -1/-1.
While wizards do not get access to level 2 spells yet.

Each spell level that a wizard gains access to, would vastly improve his ability. I'd say that's why melee classes find it so difficult to keep up with casters.



Btw, while monks get bashed a lot due to class abilities that don't synergize (or even work well by themselves), all core non-casting classes would have problems against casters.

Most, if not all the strategies mentioned so far against monks would work equally well against non-casters, such as sleep, grease, power word pain, invis, fly, dispel magic etc.

[Rejusu]

Seeing as Pickford wasn't convinced by the entire Tier thread or the Army challenge thread, I think that's a lost cause.

Yikes, you mean this isn't the first time? Definitely a lost cause then, it sounds like he's choosing to ignore reality.

[Pickford]

Yes, because clearly no wizard has ever heard of Power Word Pain, which would one shot any monk at level 1, no save. Not to mention a dozen other possibilities. And of course, it would be downright wasteful for a wizard to bother learning any spell that boosts saving throws, or buy an item that does that.

Amusingly, I hadn't heard of it, but then again I haven't read races of the dragon (its source book) either.

I suspect strider24seven is correct in the mixing up of the levels as the damage completely violates the rules on spell damage.

edit: And I was, generously, assuming no magic items because the monk can easily get an AC the wizard cannot hit without true strike and can improve their saves and resists more than a wizard can improve their primary stat.

+5 save enhancement bonus > +6 enhancement to primary casting stat (DC increase of +3) net advantage for saves: +2

When you really start looking at wondrous items the wizard crumples: Rings of spell turning and Ioun Stones neuter a caster.

[Story]

I think the Wizard probably wins at level 3. Nerveskitter, Web, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Hail of Stone.

The only question is whether the Monk will run out of HP before the Wizard runs out of prepared Hail of Stones.

[Pickford]

I think the Wizard probably wins at level 3. Nerveskitter, Web, Kelgore's Grave Mist, Hail of Stone.

The only question is whether the Monk will run out of HP before the Wizard runs out of prepared Hail of Stones.

Hrm: if the wizard has 18 int for the bonus 1st and 2nd level spells, they can cast 3 1st level and 2 2nd level.

so
Round 1:
Wizard
Nerveskitter (1st) - 4 0th, 2 1st, 2 2nd
Web (2nd) - 4 0th, 2 1st, 1 2nd

Monk:
Depends on the starting distance: If >20 feet, ignore the wizard and walk out because you have total cover and the wizard can't target you (or even see your movement). If <20, either move to >20 or get in melee and stun/grapple the wizard. If the monk was smart enough to put 18 in str, average damage on the first hit is 1d6+4 (5-11, ave: 8...almost greater than wiz ave hp of 6-12, ave 9).

If this is the case...there is no round 2.

Round 2:
Wizard:
Kelgore's Grave Mist (2nd) - 4 0th, 2 1st, 0 2nd

If the Monk closed distance, and grappled the wizard can't cast (and even if he could wouldn't be able to harm the monk without harming themselves)
If the Monk stunned, the wizard gets no turn, Monk round: Stun again. (likely fatally given the wizard has 6-12 hp base; ave: 9, damage from 2-3 monk attacks 3d6+12, up to 5d6+12 if stun on round 1 fiery ki fist round 2; this will do more than the maximum base hp of the wizard...if they decided to put 18 in con (intstead of int, cutting their bonus spells and defeating the basis of this test) they could have 18-24 hp...still possible for them to die round 2. But that's assuming something that very likely never would occur.

[Story]

Anyone think they can beat this?

This is supposed to represent a generic, moderately optimized Wizard. I had to add some Evocations since the Wizard is adventuring alone so it needs some way of dealing damage, and the good damaging spells are non core. I banned Sleep even though it's good at low level, since the Wizard is presumably building for the long haul.

I figure without Nerveskitter and Abrupt Jaunt, the Monk has at least a chance, even if it's pretty small.

Assumptions:
Core only, 28PB, HD avg+.5, combatants not optimized to face each other, only basic items

Human Wizard 3
Specialized: Conjuration, Banned: Enchantment and Necromancy
STR 8, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 8
Spells per day: 5/4/3

Feats
Improved Initiative
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Scribe Scroll (bonus)

Skills:
Concentration, Spellcraft, bunch of Knowledge Skills

Spells known:
1st:
Color Spray
Expeditious Retreat
Grease
Identify
Mage Armor
Magic Missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
Silent Image
True Strike

2nd:
Flaming Sphere
Web

Typical Spells prepared:
Web x2
Flaming Sphere

Grease
Magic Missle x2
Silent Image

Acid Splash
Detect Magic x2
Prestidigitation x2

Equipment
Cloak of Resistance +1
Light crossbow, bolts, component pouch, etc.

[Pickford]

Hrm:

Quaal's Feather Token (Whip) - 500gp.

Grapples the mage rendering all their somatic spells useless:

From that spell list:
Web, Flaming Sphere; Grease, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic and Acid Splash. (all the prepared spells)

Given that the average 3rd level wizard (who has bought no other spells) will have a spellbook worth at least 500gp, this seems like a great return on the investment. As that wizard has a -2 on the grapple roll it's practically a certainty this works.

[Story]

A) That goes against the only basic items rule
B) That's tailoring your build specifically for the fight
C) You still have to win initiative. Admittedly it does increase the odds of winning if you do get initiative
D) Do you really want to use a tactic that an NPC could do better?

[Randomguy]

How does the wizard have Ray of Enfeeblement as a spell known? He banned necromancy. I suggest summon monster 1 as a replacement for it. Or maybe Reduce Person, as a self buff for +2 to AC and +2 to hit with ray spells. a crossbow.


Hrm:

Quaal's Feather Token (Whip) - 500gp.

Grapples the mage rendering all their somatic spells useless:

From that spell list:
Web, Flaming Sphere; Grease, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic and Acid Splash. (all the prepared spells)

Given that the average 3rd level wizard (who has bought no other spells) will have a spellbook worth at least 500gp, this seems like a great return on the investment. As that wizard has a -2 on the grapple roll it's practically a certainty this works.

You need to win initiative fist. And the wizard has enough money left over for a feather token. 3rd level WBL would be enough to return the investment, no matter the class.

How'd you get -2 to grapple? +1 from BAB, -1 from strength, right? What am I missing?

Also, you should probably stat up your monk. I'd like to know what his chances of hitting the wizard are if the wizard gets off a mage armour first round. Less than 50%, even if he caps out strength, by my count.

[Pickford]

A) That goes against the only basic items rule
B) That's tailoring your build specifically for the fight
C) You still have to win initiative. Admittedly it does increase the odds of winning if you do get initiative
D) Do you really want to use a tactic that an NPC could do better?

How does Cloak of Resistance +1 not 'also' violate that 'rule'? They're both minor wondrous items, and the feather token is valued at half the price of the cloak. (I'm not objecting to the idea that it violates the basic items rules, just saying...if it does the cloak is out too...and then what do we have?)

If that were the case, I'd invest in potions of healing I suppose. Frankly I think the feather token is a fantastic buy for a monk (it holds someone still while the monk punches them...how is that not awesome in all scenarios?)

As a classy monk investing his ill-gotten(maybe?) gains of wbl, I'd purchase potions of cure light wounds, magic fang, invisibility, and bull's strength. Actually, there's enough WBL to pick up significantly more potions than that.

(And little a monk would really 'want' to invest in as magical weapons would be far more expensive...maybe just some shuriken)

randomguy, you're right, I messed up on the calculation, it's +0 for the mage.

The monk doesn't 'have' to win initiative first though, they could just use the token on their turn denying the mage future actions?

If the first action of the wizard were mage armor (which it can't be in this scenario but...for the sake of thinking about it) why wouldn't the monk just grapple the mage?

Hypothetical Monk 3rd level 28pb (for 32pb, up Wis to 16)

Str: 18 (+4, 16); Dex: 14 (+2, 6); Con: 10(+0,2); Int: 8; Wis: 12 (+1, 4); Cha: 8

BAB: +2 Flurry (+0/+0)
Base Saves: Fort +3/Ref +3/Will +3
AC/Touch AC: 13
Feats:
Human: Improved Grapple
1st level: Power Attack
Monk 1st bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist - Fort DC 12 (10 + 1/2 monk level + wis)
Monk 2nd: Fiery Fist (PHB II) - +1d6 fire damage on unarmed
3rd level: Flying Kick (CW) - +1d12 damage on unarmed attacks from a charge

Abilities:
Flurry of Blows (+0/+0)
Unarmed Strike: 1d6 + str
Fast movement: +10 ft
Evasion
Still Mind (+2 saves vs enchantment)
Stunning Fist uses: 4/day

in combat would probably charge, possibly killing the target outright. If one on one and assessed as likely to win a grapple...grapple. (+10 on the roll from str + bab + imp grapple)

[Coidzor]

These threads may be of interest to you, OP.

Class Power by Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852).

The resulting Power Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12577179#post12577179) wherein 1st level barbarians and 1st level wizards were run up against an 'archetypal' 3rd level party of 4 characters.

[Pickford]

These threads may be of interest to you, OP.

Class Power by Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228852).

The resulting Power Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12577179#post12577179) wherein 1st level barbarians and 1st level wizards were run up against an 'archetypal' 3rd level party of 4 characters.

Those rankings rely on the incorrect assumption that a wizard will perfectly plan their spells each day knowing exactly what is going to happen and that the melee classes will plan their feats/gear horribly. Not very useful.

edit: Case in point, the fighter was stated out with a 12 in wisdom and int, a 10 in dex (wearing armor that allows a +1 dex bonus!), a regular bow (in lieu of composite), and feats that in no way take advantage of a sword/board fighter (lightning reflexes and power attack?)

For a level 3 challenge to do sword and board without shield charge defeats the purpose. That's not optimization, it's just not total disarray. Fighters need to pick feats coherently in the same way that you can't have a wizard who memorizes only non-combat spells win a combat.

further edit: And the barbarian 'billed' as a level 1 character has pounce, which to my understanding requires level 3, riding a light warhorse with a lance (breaking the average wealth of a level 1 barb)...so completely optimized.

[Randomguy]

Several factors I tend to assume:
-Setting: Straight up duel, i.e. flat demiplane, both combatants separated by 30 ft (or anything longer than either combatant's reach but smaller than or equal to both combatants' movespeed).
-No advanced knowledge of combatants, no preparation time. Combatants have spells, effects, and items active which they would normally have active at the beginning of the day
-Both combantants fully rested
-No WBL-mancy. Items are restricted to basic effects... i.e. +1 weapon to penetrate DR/magic, FoM, True Seeing, and Flight when available. No crafting. No custom items. No items that grant feats or the benefits of feats. No magical locations. Items tend to be more powerful than characters, and should not be used to measure classes. I am personally on the fence about initiative boosters.

<snip>


I notice the wizard is limited to core only, but the monk isn't. That's fine, the monk needs the edge.

A hit point tally before I get into this: Avg + 0.5 is 15 hp for the wizard and 15 hp for the monk.

On average, on a charge, if you use fiery fist, you deal 17.5 damage. That's a kill, with 75% chance to hit. As long as you win initiative.


You need to roll 5 higher than the wizard to win initiative. I don't know what the odds are exactly that the wizard goes first, but they're pretty good.

Let's give the monk room to charge, and put them 15 feet apart. The distance doesn't matter, as long as it's 10 feet or greater.

In conditions where it's at all possible to cast web:
Wizard wins initiative, casts web. putting 15 feet of web between him and the monk, as not to give the monk total cover. Then he moves 30 feet away. (if they had started 10 feet apart, he would have moved first and cast second. No big difference). Monk has a a 55% chance of failing the save. If the monk fails his save:

Monks turn, monk spends his turn trying to get loose. (He could use a token, if they were allowed, but it wouldn't be able to reach the wizard Since you didn't specify any magic items I'm assuming nothing but standard equipment). Monk has a 25% chance of getting loose via strength check and a 10% chance of getting loose via escape artist, even if he put max ranks in the skill, so he'll be out in 3 rounds if he does the smart thing. Alternatively, the monk can start throwing shuriken, at -3 to hit (+0 from reduced dexterity due to entanglement, -2 from entanglement, -2 from being more than a ranged increment away) vs 16 AC (4 from cover, 2 from dex). That's a 10% chance of hitting for 7 damage maximum, it'll take 10 rounds to get a hit and 3-4 hits to get a kill. So let's go with escaping.
So, wizard's turn again. Wizard casts Magic Missile for average 7 damage. (max 10). Then he moves 30 feet away.
Monk spends second turn escaping. Wizard casts magic missile again. Monk's at 1 hp, at best. Then he moves 30 feet away, he's now 105 feet away in total, within range of flaming sphere and magic missile still.
Monk escapes. He now needs to makes strength checks to move. (Isn't web awesome?).
Wizard casts flaming sphere on the same square as the monk. Even if the monk saves against the sphere, the web lights on fire, dealing at least 2 damage, no save. The monk dies.

Note that this is overkill; the wizard could easily have taken his time to light a torch and set the web on fire or taken pot shots with a crossbow, this is the most guaranteed method.

Let's say the monk succeeds on the save against web:


Monk spends his action trying to move. 50% chance of success, 25% chance of moving 10 feet, 50% chance of failure. That's 3.75 feet a turn, on average, so he moves 1 square in 2 turns or 3 squares in 4 turns. Let's make that move 5 feet, fail, move 10 feet, so on. So the monk now has 10 feet of web in between him and the wizard.
Wizard casts magic missile, then moves.
Monk tries and fails to move.
Wizard casts magic missile, then moves. 90 feet away from the edge of the web now, too far for the monk to charge.
Monk moves another 10 feet feet, he's at the edge of the web.
Wizard casts flaming sphere. Wizard's victory.


So if the wizard wins initiative in an arena where web is at all possible, he wins.

If the wizard loses initiative, he's got a 25% chance of not getting hit on the charge. If the monk misses, then, wizard does a 5 foot step, then web, with 5 feet in between. Next turn, walk backwards and then second web so that there's a full 15 feet in between. There's a 45% chance the monk made the save, a 50% chance he moved and a 55% chance he hits on the AOO to grapple, giving the monk 12% chance to actually hit. If he missed, then see above.

So if the wizard loses initiative (unlikely), he still has a 22% chance of winning. Higher, if you take into account the odds the monk hits but doesn't kill the wizard, but I'm too tired to calculate that now.

Good night, all.

[Sith_Happens]

edit: And I was, generously, assuming no magic items because the monk can easily get an AC the wizard cannot hit without true strike and can improve their saves and resists more than a wizard can improve their primary stat.

+5 save enhancement bonus > +6 enhancement to primary casting stat (DC increase of +3) net advantage for saves: +2

Given the same amount of money, the wizard can get the same +5 to saves and an even higher AC than the monk (magic armor > boosting Wis (yes, you can get good armor with no ASF, it's quite easy actually)). Which skews things even more in the wizard's favor, because he/she needs a successful attack roll or a failed save (if even that), while the monk needs both (assuming we still care about Stunning Fist, which we do because at higher levels a one turn kill probably isn't happening).


When you really start looking at wondrous items the wizard crumples: Rings of spell turning and Ioun Stones neuter a caster.

In which case being a monk was only incidental to your victory. Congratulations?


Monk:
Depends on the starting distance: If >20 feet, ignore the wizard and walk out because you have total cover and the wizard can't target you (or even see your movement). If <20, either move to >20 or get in melee and stun/grapple the wizard.

Care to explain how a 3rd level monk is getting out of a Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) in one round and taking a standard action that turn?


further edit: And the barbarian 'billed' as a level 1 character has pounce, which to my understanding requires level 3, riding a light warhorse with a lance (breaking the average wealth of a level 1 barb)...so completely optimized.

Then your "understanding" does not include one of the most ubiquitous ACFs in the entire game (Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Complete Champion).

[shaikujin]

The problem is, all these cases showcase how a caster is more versatile than a a non caster.

It doesn't really show the weakness of the monk compared to other non casters.

For example, would a barbarian or fighter or rogue fare better than the monk against web?

In what ways can these classes overcome the same obstacles with their class features? What can they do in these cases that a monk can't?



While the monk has class abilities allowing it to do many different things, it's all spread out and there's a lack of synergy. Even when there's synergy, the bonus is mostly trivial.

But more and more of the bashing is becoming unfairly biased. The class is not as bad as certain people think it is. Just look at the examples above, a lot of the weaknesses applies to other non casters, not just the monk.

[strider24seven]

Honestly if you want to make these duels semi-legitimate (IMO, of course), you should avoid usable items other than "necessities," such as FoM, Immunity to Mind-Affecting, Flight, a way to make your weapon magic/ghost touch, etc. And honestly only the monk should be allowed those- a wizard has spells.

This is what I do to avoid playing the game, "Who is Better at Picking Magic Items":

Wizard must spend his WBL, if able, on the following, in order:
1. Boccob's Blessed Book (or normal blank spellbook if BBB is too much).
2. Headband of Intellect +X, where X is the largest affordable multiple of 2.
3. +1 Light Crossbow and 100 bolts or +1 Sling and 100 bullets or +1 Shortbow and 100 Arrows (the magic enhancement may be dropped if it is not affordable).
4. +1 Dagger or +1/+1 Quarterstaff
5. Scrolls (which he must scribe into his spellbook at cost).

The monk must spend his WBL, if able, on the following, in order:
1. +1 Ghost Touch Amulet of Natural Attacks or equivalent +1 Ghost Touch monk weapon
2. Any item granting a fly speed (a climb speed may suffice but is not recommended).
3. Any item granting freedom of movement.
4. Any item granting immunity to mind-affecting spells(the equivalent of mind blank is acceptable).
5. Any item granting True Seeing or See Invisibility. Alternative senses such as Tremorsense, Blindsense, or Blindsight may suffice.
6. Any item or items which together grant immunity to or provide for the restoration of negative levels, death effects, and ability damage (the equivalent of death ward is acceptable for negative levels and death effects, and immunity to poison may suffice for ability damage).
7. Any item that grants darkvision if the character doesn't have it naturally. Torches or items that grant low-light vision or the ability to see in magical darkness may suffice here.
8. +1 Light Crossbow and 100 bolts or 100 +1 Shuriken (the +1 may be dropped at the monk's option)
9. Any item which allows for the limited use (i.e. non-continuous and non-unlimited) of the ability to walk through walls. The following suffice: (Teleport not more than 2/day, Earth Glide not more than 1 minute/day, Ethereal Jaunt and cousins not more than 1 minute/day, phase door, shadow walk, and astral caravan)
10. Item of STR/DEX/CON/WIS +X, where X is the most affordable ability. The belt from Heroes of Battle that adds +X to all attributes is acceptable here.

Neither combatant may spend no more than 1/2 his WBL on any given item and may not craft items. Custom items are not allowed, but if either combatant wishes to purchase an item that does more than what is allowed on his or her list, he may, but he may not activate any abilities that do not appear on his list and may not benefit from any passive or reactive abilities that do not appear on his list.

I have found that these rules avoid the use of WBL-mancy and change the game to "Monk vs Wizard" from "Pile of Magic Items vs Pile of Magic Items with spells"


And to be facetious:


Care to explain how a 3rd level monk is getting out of a Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) in one round and taking a standard action that turn?

He could be carrying a torch and not fear fire damage :smalltongue:

Edit:
Just caught this:

Just one of MANY very broken non-core spells, effects, classes, etc..... It's called power creep, and it sucks the life out of the game.
I suggest you do some research before posting nonsense* like this. D&D=/=MtG. Power creep does not exist. Let's take a poll of broken spells in core vs non-core, in no particular order:

Core:
Color Spray (for its level)
Contact Other Plane
(Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding
Gate
Shapechange
Polylmorph
Alter Self
(Lesser) Wish
Miracle
Divine Power
Astral Projection
Enervation
Contingency
Greater Shadow Evocation (to emulate contingency)
Shades (to emulate contingency)
Time Stop (only broken with other spells that work inside of it)
Animate Dead
Create (Greater) Undead
Summon Monster IV (only with Voor, non-core monster, only for its level)
Shatter (depending on the definition of "solid")
Silent Image (only with Shadowcraft Mage)

Non-Core:
Power Word Pain (which I believe to be an actual mistake, and it's only broken for its level)
(Greater) Celerity
Shivering Touch
Fleshshiver (fixed in Spell Compendium)
Genesis (non-psionic version)
(Lesser) Orb of X (only with stacking free metamagics)
Wraithstrike (only with uberchargers or meat-grinder type warriors/summons)
Animate Dread Warrior
Streamers (only for its level, and depending on interpretation)
Ice Assassin
Ray of Stupidity (only with stacking free metamagics)
Draconic Polymorph

There are 608 spells in the PHB. I have listed the 25 ones that can actually break games in half, 21 of which can do so unconditionally by themselves.

Of the thousands of spells outside of core, I can only name 22 (24 with help) that I would call broken, 12 of which are the same spell (mostly), 1 of which I believe to be an error in printing, and 1 of which was fixed, reducing the list to 7 spells.

Now, certain spells combo extremely well with other spells/feats/classes to the point of brokenness- however, this is not innate to the spell itself, but to the combo.

Additionally, the non-core spells listed above are outliers. Most spells printed outside core pale in comparison to their core brethren... unless of course they are variations on core spells (see Freezing Fog- Solid Fog's big brother). If you actually take the time to read spells outside core, you will find that most of the spells are actually behind the curve set by core. Seriously, go look up a high-power wizard build. Unless it is building specifically for core/non-core compliance, you will find that with the exceptions listed above, nearly all of the spells it relies on will be core.

And this only refers to spells. The only base classes printed outside core that can even compete with the Big Three are the Erudite and Artificer- the former relies upon an online ACF called spell to power that turns it into a Wizard (more or less- it gives it access to the wizard list + its own), and the latter relies upon the broken crafting system introduced in core.

(*Nonsense referring to the power creep. If you think that non-core sucks the life out of the game, that's fine. I don't agree with you but everyone is entitled to their opinion.)

To explain the reference to MtG:
Colossus of Sardia (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221291) vs Blightsteel Colossus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221563)
Obsidianus Golem (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202624) vs Wurmcoil Engine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207875)
Phyrexian Negator (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207891) vs Phyrexian Obliterator (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214386)

And then of course there's Tarmogoyf.

[ahenobarbi]

strider24seven wow. Pretty asymmetric rules. Wizard can pick only items that make one of his class features better but monk can pick up bunch of good abilities?

[strider24seven]

strider24seven wow. Pretty asymmetric rules. Wizard can pick only items that make one of his class features better but monk can pick up bunch of good abilities?

I think you'll find that gives the duel the illusion of parity.
Unless the wizard player plays like a complete moron, he should still win basically every duel, except at -very- low levels, where he should only win the majority.

Edit:
Let's say that the Wizard and Monk are both level one and have equal initiative and DEX scores. Let's say the Monk's Will Save is +5 (WIS 16 and Base 2), and the Wizard's 1st level save DC is 15 (10+1 level+4 INT).

Assuming they start within sleep range+the wizard's move speed, the wizard has a 25% chance of winning outright with no input from the monk whatsoever:
Turn 1:
Wizard:
Move action 30 ft toward monk
Standard action cast sleep (monk fails)
Turns 2 and 3 are spent teabagging the monk or drawing phallic designs on his face with Prestidigitation, and turns 4+ are spent on coup-de-grace'ing the monk.

(for the math-types: that's 50% chance of winning initiative, 50% chance of sleep functioning)

Edit to the Edit:
Changed colour spray to sleep- forgot stunned=/=helpless.

[Story]

How does the wizard have Ray of Enfeeblement as a spell known? He banned necromancy. I suggest summon monster 1 as a replacement for it. Or maybe Reduce Person, as a self buff for +2 to AC and +2 to hit with ray spells. a crossbow.


Oops! I was just trying to pick a generic spell loadout, but I forgot that I banned Necromancy. It doesn't matter anyway as he doesn't have it prepared.


How does Cloak of Resistance +1 not 'also' violate that 'rule'? They're both minor wondrous items, and the feather token is valued at half the price of the cloak. (I'm not objecting to the idea that it violates the basic items rules, just saying...if it does the cloak is out too...and then what do we have?)

If that were the case, I'd invest in potions of healing I suppose. Frankly I think the feather token is a fantastic buy for a monk (it holds someone still while the monk punches them...how is that not awesome in all scenarios?)

As a classy monk investing his ill-gotten(maybe?) gains of wbl, I'd purchase potions of cure light wounds, magic fang, invisibility, and bull's strength. Actually, there's enough WBL to pick up significantly more potions than that.

The monk doesn't 'have' to win initiative first though, they could just use the token on their turn denying the mage future actions?

If the first action of the wizard were mage armor (which it can't be in this scenario but...for the sake of thinking about it) why wouldn't the monk just grapple the mage?


The Cloak of Resistance is one of the Big Six items that characters are assumed to have. The Feather Token is an oddball consumable seemingly tailored specifically for this fight. Or does your level 3 Monk routinely blow 500gp on each fight?

Also, the Wizards first action is obviously Web. If he can get off a Web, victory is basically guaranteed, as explained earlier.


The problem is, all these cases showcase how a caster is more versatile than a a non caster.

It doesn't really show the weakness of the monk compared to other non casters.

For example, would a barbarian or fighter or rogue fare better than the monk against web?

In what ways can these classes overcome the same obstacles with their class features? What can they do in these cases that a monk can't?


Well a Swordsage could just Shadow Jaunt out of the web. A Barbarian will 1 hit the Wizard in the case he manages to win initiative, and will have slightly better odds of escaping the Web when he loses due to high strength. Not great, but he is more likely to win than the Monk. As for the Fighter, I think he's pretty much out of luck.




There are 608 spells in the PHB. I have listed the 25 ones that can actually break games in half, 21 of which can do so unconditionally by themselves.

Of the thousands of spells outside of core, I can only name 21 that I would call broken, 12 of which are the same spell (mostly), 1 of which I believe to be an error in printing, and 1 of which was fixed, reducing the list to 7 spells.


Personally, I'd say Ray of Stupidity is broken for it's level. And there's also Ice Assassin.

[strider24seven]

Well a Swordsage could just Shadow Jaunt out of the web. A Barbarian will 1 hit the Wizard in the case he manages to win initiative, and will have slightly better odds of escaping the Web when he loses due to high strength. Not great, but he is more likely to win than the Monk. As for the Fighter, I think he's pretty much out of luck.



Personally, I'd say Ray of Stupidity is broken for it's level. And there's also Ice Assassin.

I edited my list to reflect these two spells. I believe Ray of Stupidity is only broken with metamagic stacking- it suffers from what I call MetaRay syndrome... whereby most rays are mildly useful normally, but are monstrous when they are Twinned Split Empowered. Ray of Stupidity also suffers from being an Enchantment spell- although it is one of the very few that are not Mind-Affecting.

I feel really dumb for forgetting Ice Assassin though.
I added draconic polymorph as well, but since it's polymorph+ i don't feel that it's as broken as polymorph- i'd rather have an extended polymorph generally, but I play games that are more than just combat->buffs wear off->combat.

With regards to Shadow Jaunting out of a web on a failed save- that's arguable. You do need to be able to move in order to use maneuvers, although whether that constitutes using a move action to move or being able to twiddle your thumbs is unclear. I'm in favour of it working though.

[shaikujin]

Oops! I was just trying to pick a generic spell loadout, but I forgot that I banned Necromancy. It doesn't matter anyway as he doesn't have it prepared.



The Cloak of Resistance is one of the Big Six items that characters are assumed to have. The Feather Token is an oddball consumable seemingly tailored specifically for this fight. Or does your level 3 Monk routinely blow 500gp on each fight?

Also, the Wizards first action is obviously Web. If he can get off a Web, victory is basically guaranteed, as explained earlier.



Well a Swordsage could just Shadow Jaunt out of the web. A Barbarian will 1 hit the Wizard in the case he manages to win initiative, and will have slightly better odds of escaping the Web when he loses due to high strength. Not great, but he is more likely to win than the Monk. As for the Fighter, I think he's pretty much out of luck.



Personally, I'd say Ray of Stupidity is broken for it's level. And there's also Ice Assassin.


I totally agree with Swordsage. While this brings us beyond core, I love ToB. Initiator classes grants so much more flexibility that it's almost like spell casting. Beyond "I charge and hit the BBEG with my weapon".



For the barbarian damage output though, the monk can 1 hit the wizard as well. In fact, a fully optimized monk can out damage a fully optimized barbarian by exploiting the unarmed damage progression and size (both actual and virtual) increase.

People's first reaction to monks are that they are restricted to unarmed attacks, and can't wear armor.

They can in fact do both. Choices are not as wide as other characters, but there are some gems that are basically built for monks.



If need be (or if the player realizes that certain monk features are never going to be worth it), they can even dump Wis to reduce MAD and just wear armor like everyone else. Once they are rich enough to afford +WIS items to make the WIS to AC worthwhile, then switch to bracers of armor.

[Pickford]

In which case being a monk was only incidental to your victory. Congratulations?

Then your "understanding" does not include one of the most ubiquitous ACFs in the entire game (Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Complete Champion).

Magic item selection is important to victory for both sides...that's the game.

For the pounce, I just googled for the level and first thing I found said level 3ACF, if it's 1 fine.

Strider's thing:

-No WBL-mancy. Items are restricted to basic effects... i.e. +1 weapon to penetrate DR/magic, FoM, True Seeing, and Flight when available. No crafting. No custom items. No items that grant feats or the benefits of feats. No magical locations. Items tend to be more powerful than characters, and should not be used to measure classes. I am personally on the fence about initiative boosters.

The point I am making is 'even' the +1 cloak of resistance is a wondrous item. There's no such thing as basic magic items. If it's that inexpensive than it must be basic. If you outlaw all reasonable items for a monk to pick up then the playing field is being deliberately skewed towards the wizard.

But if you insist on doing so the monk buys nothing but healing potions.

Incidentally web requires two opposite surfaces for anchor points, so it doesn't work in a field unless we're standing between two very conveniently placed trees.

The monk could use fiery fist or a torch to burn the web away (toward the nearest opening and then next round chug a potion of healing to restore to full hp, moving out of the web. The next time the wizard damages the monk, chug another healing potion and then move closer (or hide behind the tree preventing the wizard from casting a spell).

Note: If the monk has to be crippled in any example, picking terrible feats, being automatically disallowed the use of easily purchased core items, while the wizard optimizes (picking anti-melee specific spells) there's really no point in looking at it.

For randomguy:

You assumed the monk makes the worst possible choice at every step and fails every save.

Here's the breakdown:

Round1: If monk wins initiative, melee touch attack to grapple, touch AC 8 (flatfooted, 60% chance of success)
Grapple attempt (monk at a +10 bonus to the wizards 0). Wizard has to roll 12 (higher grapple mod wins ties) over the monk to avoid (18% chance), otherwise takes unarmed strike damage (+fiery fist) and as you mentioned has a 75% of dying this round.

Also, sleep is a level 1 mind affecting, so the base DC is 11 + int (so 15?) and the monk's will save vs mind affecting is 3base + 3 wis + 2 still mind, so it's a DC 7 to avoid (65% chance of success)

So as a first round action, the monk has a higher probability of killing the wizard outright than the wizard has of rendering the monk helpless outright. And if the monk passes on his save, the wizards action was rendered useless and very likely dies that same round. That seems balanced (10% variance) to me.

Incidentally the coup DC for a light crossbow varies between 12 and 28. (obviously anything over 20, after modifying for saves, is death, but any successful save wakes the monk who, now able to act, could insta-gib the wizard in return...actually given that the monk likely has less than 20 hp at 3rd, it wouldn't matter so if the damage isn't fatal, the monk can probably make the fort save to not die).

Edit:

The Cloak of Resistance is one of the Big Six items that characters are assumed to have. The Feather Token is an oddball consumable seemingly tailored specifically for this fight. Or does your level 3 Monk routinely blow 500gp on each fight?

Also, the Wizards first action is obviously Web. If he can get off a Web, victory is basically guaranteed, as explained earlier.

Story, If you want to say cheap wondrous items aren't basic items but the more expensive cloak if resistance is...fine. The PHB II has a list of both assumed items and suggested wizard spells. That list doesn't have web, so if I can't build a monk and pick reasonably inexpensive items or feats a monk would reasonably take, I would argue you can't build the wizard picking anything that isn't a spell off that list, as we've decided extensive forethought which might be tainted by our knowing the opponent is a magicuser/melee. (In this case, web is invalid, not being on the list.)

[Story]

First off, I didn't make the rule about items. And the Cloak of Resistance doesn't even matter, it's just something I thought the Wizard might have.

Web is a spell nearly every Wizard will take, especially a Conjurer.

But if you really want to be silly and say we're allowed to blow our WBL on consumables for this fight, then the Wizard will just buy a bunch of scrolls of stuff like Alter Self and Polymorph.

[Pickford]

First off, I didn't make the rule about items. And the Cloak of Resistance doesn't even matter, it's just something I thought the Wizard might have.

Web is a spell nearly every Wizard will take, especially a Conjurer.

But if you really want to be silly and say we're allowed to blow our WBL on consumables for this fight, then the Wizard will just buy a bunch of scrolls of stuff like Alter Self and Polymorph.

Hrm, that's fine by me, you'd still have to make the CL checks to use the above CL scrolls though (silly as it may be).

[Flickerdart]

Just one of MANY very broken non-core spells, effects, classes, etc..... It's called power creep, and it sucks the life out of the game.
All the best spells are in Core, save a small few. Planar Binding, Polymorph, Shapechange, Rope Trick, Glitterdust, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray...

[Randomguy]

Incidentally web requires two opposite surfaces for anchor points, so it doesn't work in a field unless we're standing between two very conveniently placed trees.

Or if the duel takes place in a room, or in a street, or in a forest. But yes, other actions would be necessary.



The monk could use fiery fist or a torch to burn the web away (toward the nearest opening and then next round chug a potion of healing to restore to full hp, moving out of the web. The next time the wizard damages the monk, chug another healing potion and then move closer (or hide behind the tree preventing the wizard from casting a spell).

I was assuming no magic items at all for the duel, but even if you did burn your way out, whether with a torch or fiery fist, you'd take at least 2 damage the first round (to get free of the web yourself), and then you'd need 3 turns to burn through 15 feet of web, while the wizard needs 2 castings of magic missile to kill you. Either way; you're dead and the wizard is unscathed if you get hit by the web.



Note: If the monk has to be crippled in any example, picking terrible feats, being automatically disallowed the use of easily purchased core items, while the wizard optimizes (picking anti-melee specific spells) there's really no point in looking at it.

The monk wasn't crippled at all. You yourself picked the feats for this particular monk, and there was nothing restricting you to using terrible feats. If easily purchased core items were allowed on both sides, then when the wizard wins initiative he would just use a whip feather token and win.
The wizard also was only slightly optimised, and not at all against melee. For one thing, he was core only. The spells he chose were effective, yes, but not specifically against monks or melee combatants: web shuts down everything equally well. In fact, melee combatants with high strength, like your monk, have the best chance of moving through a web. In fact, web works best against a large number of combatants, and so does flaming sphere. They aren't meant to be used in one on one fights.
In fact, there are a number of very useful non-core ACF's which were ignored specifically to give the monk a fighting chance. If abrupt jaunt was allowed, for example, the monk would have no chance at all of winning, since any attack or grapple attempt or feather token would be avoided, and then the wizard would cast web.



For randomguy:

You assumed the monk makes the worst possible choice at every step and fails every save.

Now that's just not true. There was only one saving throw permitted, the initial save against web, and I had a huge indented block of text that explained what happened if the monk made the save. Well, there was also the saving throw vs. Flaming Sphere, but I assumed the monk passed that.
As to making the worst possible choice at every step, I used my best judgement to determine the monks actions. I did forget about the chance the monk had to burn through the web with Fiery Fist, but that would have gotten him killed as well, as I explained above. I did assume that a monk optimised for charging would charge, in fact, you suggested it:



<monk build snip>
in combat would probably charge...




Here's the breakdown:

Round1: If monk wins initiative, melee touch attack to grapple, touch AC 8 (flatfooted, 60% chance of success)
Grapple attempt (monk at a +10 bonus to the wizards 0). Wizard has to roll 12 (higher grapple mod wins ties) over the monk to avoid (18% chance), otherwise takes unarmed strike damage (+fiery fist) and as you mentioned has a 75% of dying this round.

The 75% chance of dying is if he charges, unarmed damage + fiery fist doesn't include flying kick damage, so it would be less. That was a mistake, actually, I forgot about being flatfooted (I don't have much actual game experience). Taking that into account, the monk has a 90% chance of killing the wizard on a charge, and a 60% chance of killing the wizard on a grapple. Most of the rest of the time, the wizard wins. And that's still only if you win initiative, which is unlikely.



Also, sleep is a level 1 mind affecting, so the base DC is 11 + int (so 15?) and the monk's will save vs mind affecting is 3base + 3 wis + 2 still mind, so it's a DC 7 to avoid (65% chance of success)

So as a first round action, the monk has a higher probability of killing the wizard outright than the wizard has of rendering the monk helpless outright. And if the monk passes on his save, the wizards action was rendered useless and very likely dies that same round. That seems balanced (10% variance) to me.

Incidentally the coup DC for a light crossbow varies between 12 and 28. (obviously anything over 20, after modifying for saves, is death, but any successful save wakes the monk who, now able to act, could insta-gib the wizard in return...actually given that the monk likely has less than 20 hp at 3rd, it wouldn't matter so if the damage isn't fatal, the monk can probably make the fort save to not die).

Sleep is a bad example, not suggested by me. The wizard I used couldn't even cast sleep. In fact, casting sleep takes a full round, not a full round action, so it's kind of a death sentence. Colour spray is better, web is the best, which is why I used web.





Edit:


Story, If you want to say cheap wondrous items aren't basic items but the more expensive cloak if resistance is...fine. The PHB II has a list of both assumed items and suggested wizard spells. That list doesn't have web, so if I can't build a monk and pick reasonably inexpensive items or feats a monk would reasonably take, I would argue you can't build the wizard picking anything that isn't a spell off that list, as we've decided extensive forethought which might be tainted by our knowing the opponent is a magicuser/melee. (In this case, web is invalid, not being on the list.)
Emphasis mine. No one said anything about feats, other than being core only, which was ignored in this particular match up for the monk side.

Certain items were banned because it doesn't matter who uses a feather token. A level 3 commoner with 18 dex, improved initiative and some other initiative boosting feat would have a better chance of winning against the wizard if he apporpriate wealth by level. He'd also have a better chance of winning against the monk.

EDIT: Hey, don't consumables cost more for one shots or something?

Second Edit: Yes, in fact they do. Page 199 of the DMG, limited use items cost 5 times the normal price in one shots. This would make feather tokens and most potions (except level 1 potions) almost prohibitively expensive. If a limit of "no item may be worth more than half WBL" was imposed, then they wouldn't be allowed at all.

[strider24seven]

Magic item selection is important to victory for both sides...that's the game.

For the pounce, I just googled for the level and first thing I found said level 3ACF, if it's 1 fine.

Strider's thing:


The point I am making is 'even' the +1 cloak of resistance is a wondrous item. There's no such thing as basic magic items. If it's that inexpensive than it must be basic. If you outlaw all reasonable items for a monk to pick up then the playing field is being deliberately skewed towards the wizard.

But if you insist on doing so the monk buys nothing but healing potions.

Incidentally web requires two opposite surfaces for anchor points, so it doesn't work in a field unless we're standing between two very conveniently placed trees.

The monk could use fiery fist or a torch to burn the web away (toward the nearest opening and then next round chug a potion of healing to restore to full hp, moving out of the web. The next time the wizard damages the monk, chug another healing potion and then move closer (or hide behind the tree preventing the wizard from casting a spell).

Note: If the monk has to be crippled in any example, picking terrible feats, being automatically disallowed the use of easily purchased core items, while the wizard optimizes (picking anti-melee specific spells) there's really no point in looking at it.

For randomguy:

You assumed the monk makes the worst possible choice at every step and fails every save.

Here's the breakdown:

Round1: If monk wins initiative, melee touch attack to grapple, touch AC 8 (flatfooted, 60% chance of success)
Grapple attempt (monk at a +10 bonus to the wizards 0). Wizard has to roll 12 (higher grapple mod wins ties) over the monk to avoid (18% chance), otherwise takes unarmed strike damage (+fiery fist) and as you mentioned has a 75% of dying this round.

Also, sleep is a level 1 mind affecting, so the base DC is 11 + int (so 15?) and the monk's will save vs mind affecting is 3base + 3 wis + 2 still mind, so it's a DC 7 to avoid (65% chance of success)

So as a first round action, the monk has a higher probability of killing the wizard outright than the wizard has of rendering the monk helpless outright. And if the monk passes on his save, the wizards action was rendered useless and very likely dies that same round. That seems balanced (10% variance) to me.

Incidentally the coup DC for a light crossbow varies between 12 and 28. (obviously anything over 20, after modifying for saves, is death, but any successful save wakes the monk who, now able to act, could insta-gib the wizard in return...actually given that the monk likely has less than 20 hp at 3rd, it wouldn't matter so if the damage isn't fatal, the monk can probably make the fort save to not die).

Edit:


Story, If you want to say cheap wondrous items aren't basic items but the more expensive cloak if resistance is...fine. The PHB II has a list of both assumed items and suggested wizard spells. That list doesn't have web, so if I can't build a monk and pick reasonably inexpensive items or feats a monk would reasonably take, I would argue you can't build the wizard picking anything that isn't a spell off that list, as we've decided extensive forethought which might be tainted by our knowing the opponent is a magicuser/melee. (In this case, web is invalid, not being on the list.)

When I refer to "basic" magic items, I generally refer to items from the PHB or DMG that confer simple effects like +X to Y stat or offer constant immunity to X, as opposed to custom items or partially charged wands. Consumables also fall outside the category of "basic".

The point of allowing magic items at all was to give the monk a fair (read: non-zero) chance of beating the wizard past level 5, since combat past that point devolves into "wizard casts Fly, moves 30 ft straight up. monk goes home" without giving the monk some kind of item to grant flight or an ample supply of ranged weaponry.

With regards to sleep, I originally used colour spray but forgot that stunned=/=helpless, and thoughtlessly had coup-de-grace as part of the wizard's routine. I chose to replace the spell rather than the attack action. Yes, colour spray is better, and is available from level 1 (which i was describing a hypothetical duel between lvl 1's, not with your monk... sorry for the confusion).

Story, your wizard has no familiar- i suggest a toad for the bonus hp.

With regards to an actual 1v1 of lvl 3 vs lvl 3, my wizard would be substantially the same as Story's but with the inclusion of nervskitter as a level 1 spell (this goes outside core but whatever), as well as blockade from complete scoundrel, in place of expeditious retreat and true strike, respectively, and would prepare a nerveskitter in place of silent image. I would also normally take glitterdust in place of web, but for the sake of simplicity I will not. If we allow ACF's, I trade my toad familiar out for Abrupt Jaunt and trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative and select something else instead.

So my analysis of the duels:
Pickford's Monk vs Story's Wizard
Wizard has a 70% chance of winning initiative (Init+6 vs Init+2), drops web on first turn (DC 10+2+4+1+1=18) with a 75% chance of success. The monk then has a 20% chance to escape every round with a strength check. That is a 52.5% chance of the monk being pretty much toast, as over the next few rounds he'll take 2 magic missiles to the face for 4d4+4 damage followed by a flaming sphere finisher. That's a 52.5% chance of losing outright with minimal input from the monk. The actual % of that is a little lower, as it possible for the wizard to not roll enough to burn through the monk's 17 hp (assuming avg hp) over 2-3 rounds, or for the monk to break free early, move at half speed toward the wizard, survive the flaming sphere and the burn damage from the web on the following round, and kill the wizard.

Pickford's Monk vs my Wizard (without ACF's since your monk doesn't use them)
Wizard casts nerveskitter at the start of combat, giving +5 to initiative, bringing his total to +11, meaning he goes first 95% of the time. The rest of combat plays out substantially the same, yielding a 71.25% chance of victory.

Pickford's Monk vs my Wizard with ACF's (just to drive the point home)
Wizard doesn't bother casting nerveskitter since it no longer matters if he goes first. If he goes first, he does his combo; if the monk goes first, the wizard dodges the attack with Abrupt Jaunt, moves back 30 ft, then drops his combo, dropping the Monk's chances of victory to basically 0%*

*It is possible for the monk to achieve victory, if he makes his save vs web, moves to the edge of the web at half speed, takes a flaming sphere and burn damage from the web without dying, burns 3 more abrupt jaunts, takes minimum damage from the resulting magic missiles, then hits the wizard and deals lethal damage.

[Story]

The monk then has a 20% chance to escape every round with a strength check. That is a 52.5% chance of the monk being pretty much toast, as over the next few rounds he'll take 2 magic missiles to the face for 4d4+4 damage followed by a flaming sphere finisher. That's a 52.5% chance of losing outright with minimal input from the monk. The actual % of that is a little lower, as it possible for the wizard to not roll enough to burn through the monk's 17 hp (assuming avg hp) over 2-3 rounds, or for the monk to break free early, move at half speed toward the wizard, survive the flaming sphere and the burn damage from the web on the following round, and kill the wizard.

Except that he can't just move at half speed, even once free. With 18 strength, he only has a 50% chance of being able to move at all each round, and that's after he made his Reflex save.


a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10.

[Rejusu]

The point of allowing magic items at all was to give the monk a fair (read: non-zero) chance of beating the wizard past level 5, since combat past that point devolves into "wizard casts Fly, moves 30 ft straight up. monk goes home" without giving the monk some kind of item to grant flight or an ample supply of ranged weaponry.

Or Levitate at level 2 and move 20ft straight up. Of course most wizards will likely skip levitate in favour of fly the next level. But it's still a potential weapon in their arsenal.

This is why I said earlier that it's kind of pointless how Pickford was discussing the probability of killing a higher level Wizard with stunning fist. It's based on the assumption that the Wizard would just stand there and let him. And it's not even as if we're talking an optimised Wizard here, Fly is pretty much a standard spell choice for any caster as soon as it becomes available. The only reason for not taking it would be if circumstances meant you REALLY didn't need it due to the setting (a campaign primarily based underground or underwater for example) or because you already have access to it.

Either way a Monk stands less and less chance of victory as level increases, and it didn't start high to begin with.

[Sith_Happens]

Pickford's Monk vs my Wizard with ACF's (just to drive the point home)
Wizard doesn't bother casting nerveskitter since it no longer matters if he goes first. If he goes first, he does his combo; if the monk goes first, the wizard dodges the attack with Abrupt Jaunt, moves back 30 ft, then drops his combo, dropping the Monk's chances of victory to basically 0%*

Actually, he does still need to go first, because you can't take an immediate action while flat-footed.

[limejuicepowder]

Actually, he does still need to go first, because you can't take an immediate action while flat-footed.

This may be in conflict with RAW, but if two characters were fighting a duel, I think it's kind of stupid to say the character who lost initiative is flat-footed.

[Malroth]

Improved Initiative ACF, + Neverskitter +Hummingbird familliar = +14 initiative over equal DEX Monk = a 95% chance the Wizard will go first.

[mattie_p]

Improved Initiative ACF, + Neverskitter +Hummingbird familliar = +14 initiative over equal DEX Monk = a 95% chance the Wizard will go first.

Familiar means no abrupt jaunt. Schrodinger's wizard strikes again!

[Flickerdart]

Familiar means no abrupt jaunt. Schrodinger's wizard strikes again!
Obtain Familiar says hello.

[mattie_p]

Obtain Familiar says hello.

Well, now we've eliminated two feats for the wizard. If we're third level the wizard has one left. Choose wisely.

[TuggyNE]

edit: Case in point, the fighter was stated out with a 12 in wisdom and int, a 10 in dex (wearing armor that allows a +1 dex bonus!), a regular bow (in lieu of composite), and feats that in no way take advantage of a sword/board fighter (lightning reflexes and power attack?)

For a level 3 challenge to do sword and board without shield charge defeats the purpose. That's not optimization, it's just not total disarray. Fighters need to pick feats coherently in the same way that you can't have a wizard who memorizes only non-combat spells win a combat.

further edit: And the barbarian 'billed' as a level 1 character has pounce, which to my understanding requires level 3, riding a light warhorse with a lance (breaking the average wealth of a level 1 barb)...so completely optimized.

Seemingly, you misunderstood the point of the challenge. The idea was not to have optimized solo level 1 characters (APL 0.3) up against an optimized EL 7 encounter, which could only really end in disaster, but to demonstrate relative class effectiveness against a fairly "stock" (and also extremely difficult) challenge. At which it appears to have worked; the 4-man level 3 party killed the barbarian, optimization and all, two out of three times, but failed against the wizard on all occasions.


The problem is, all these cases showcase how a caster is more versatile than a a non caster.

It doesn't really show the weakness of the monk compared to other non casters.

For example, would a barbarian or fighter or rogue fare better than the monk against web?

In what ways can these classes overcome the same obstacles with their class features? What can they do in these cases that a monk can't?

This would be a vastly more productive thing to investigate, but for whatever reason, most defenders of Monk have the quixotic attitude that it should be tested against Wizard, and furthermore that it should be tested in single combat, rather than in some sort of same-game test. (And, of course, many Wizard partisans are perfectly happy to oblige them in this.)


This may be in conflict with RAW, but if two characters were fighting a duel, I think it's kind of stupid to say the character who lost initiative is flat-footed.

Iajutsu Focus. Sneak Attack. Sudden Strike. I'd say it's fairly important to stick very closely to RAW here, given the implications.

[ArcturusV]

Not like Wizards need feats anyway unless they are going for something thematic anyway, like wanting to do a lot of insane Metamagic Stacking on low level spells.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Not like Wizards need feats anyway unless they are going for something thematic anyway, like wanting to do a lot of insane Metamagic Stacking on low level spells.

Wizards don't need feats the way a mundane class, sure, but they "don't need feats" the way a Druid doesn't need feats (a Druid with Natural Spell and Skill Focus (Appraise, Craft (Basketweaving), Knowledge (Magic: the Gathering), Speak Language, Perform (Kazoo), and Use Rope) is going to be much more powerful than a Wizard with those same feats).

I was going to say that Wizards benefit from feats, just like anyone, but that's not strictly true. Wizards tend to benefit disproportionately from their feats, much like they do with their Wealth By Level (both in that they can craft and thereby essentially double their wealth, and in that items which benefit Wizards tend to be more beneficial than items which benefit mundanes), increased access to Sourcebooks, increased stats (as they get immense benefit from having one or two high stats, where mundanes typically need three, four, or even five high stats), and increased levels.

But you are correct that a featless wizard is far better off than a featless fighter or monk.

[Coidzor]

Familiar means no abrupt jaunt. Schrodinger's wizard strikes again!

A little quick on the draw there.

It'd only be shrodinger's wizard if the comment you were quoting appeared in reply to someone in which the wizard had abrupt jaunt. As it stands it seems more like a general non sequitur reaffirming the general principle that it's within the wizard's grasp to handily corner the initiative market.

[mattie_p]

A little quick on the draw there.

It'd only be shrodinger's wizard if the comment you were quoting appeared in reply to someone in which the wizard had abrupt jaunt. As it stands it seems more like a general non sequitur reaffirming the general principle that it's within the wizard's grasp to handily corner the initiative market.

And the more effort the wizard spends on cornering initiative, the fewer resources they have available for other nice things. It is very easy to say a wizard can win initiative, but a very different thing for that same wizard with initiative of "+yes" to do all the other suggested activities in this thread.

[Randomguy]

Well, now we've eliminated two feats for the wizard. If we're third level the wizard has one left. Choose wisely.

Actually, an optimized wizard would swap Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative using an ACF from Unearthed Arcana, leaving the same amount of feats left as before. In fact, Story's wizard is missing a human bonus feat.

[Coidzor]

And the more effort the wizard spends on cornering initiative, the fewer resources they have available for other nice things. It is very easy to say a wizard can win initiative, but a very different thing for that same wizard with initiative of "+yes" to do all the other suggested activities in this thread.

Which is generally OK because the wizard has more resources by default due to its spellcasting.

The wizard doesn't need to be capable of doing all of them simultaneously, fortunately for the wizard, and unfortunately for the monk.

However, the fact that the wizard has so many different possible avenues of success is indicative of the disparity between the two classes. One could say that it further illustrates some kind of profound discrepancy.


Well, now we've eliminated two feats for the wizard. If we're third level the wizard has one left. Choose wisely.

Does the wizard need to choose wisely? :smallamused:

[mattie_p]

Actually, an optimized wizard would swap Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative using an ACF from Unearthed Arcana, leaving the same amount of feats left as before. In fact, Story's wizard is missing a human bonus feat.

Could have been an elf EZ bake generalist. That is an all-purpose wizard right there, rather than maximizing initiative or whatever.


Does the wizard need to choose wisely? :smallamused:

Yes, because as soon as you don't, then the nearest red wizard circle magic wielding incantrix will crush the suboptimal wizard like a cockroach. :smallwink:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yes, because as soon as you don't, then the nearest red wizard circle magic wielding incantrix will crush the suboptimal wizard like a cockroach. :smallwink:

I'm pretty sure the Red Wizards and Incantatrices don't get on well enough to go suboptimal wizard hunting. They're not like the Druids, going out hunting Druids who didn't take Natural Spell at sixth level on weekends.

[Karnith]

I'm pretty sure the Red Wizards and Incantatrices don't get on well enough to go suboptimal wizard hunting. They're not like the Druids, going out hunting Druids who didn't take Natural Spell at sixth level on weekends.
Actually, it's the guys with levels in Red Wizard and Incantatrix who go out hunting the poorly-optimized wizards. And then regular Red Wizards and Incantatrices hunt down those guys, because they have access to so few schools of magic that it's embarassing.

[Coidzor]

Yes, because as soon as you don't, then the nearest red wizard circle magic wielding incantrix will crush the suboptimal wizard like a cockroach. :smallwink:

Well, you know, instead of "set a thief to catch a thief" it's "set an incantatrix to gank a wizard." :smallamused: Very few monks who are incantatrixes though.

[Rejusu]

This would be a vastly more productive thing to investigate, but for whatever reason, most defenders of Monk have the quixotic attitude that it should be tested against Wizard, and furthermore that it should be tested in single combat, rather than in some sort of same-game test. (And, of course, many Wizard partisans are perfectly happy to oblige them in this.)

True, but that's because the defenders of Monk see the Wizard as the one to beat. That if they can just topple him everyone will acknowledge the Monk as a really good class like they believe it is. It's probably just because they can deflect attention away from the Monks weaknesses when they lose by claiming it's just that the Wizard is overpowered, and not that the Monk is underpowered. When actually both those things are true.

A Monk would stand a better chance against other classes sure, but he'd still get his butt handed to him by Psions, Psychic Warriors, Warblades, Crusaders, and Swordsages. Barbarians, Rogues, and Fighters would find it more difficult and yet could still probably beat the Monk most of the time.

We could discuss Monk vs Paladin, that might be more of an even match. Of course since the Paladin is also quite underpowered it wouldn't prove much.


And the more effort the wizard spends on cornering initiative, the fewer resources they have available for other nice things. It is very easy to say a wizard can win initiative, but a very different thing for that same wizard with initiative of "+yes" to do all the other suggested activities in this thread.

Which is okay because the Wizard has resources galore. Options are power in D&D, and casters simply have more of them. If they don't have the right tool for the job then odds are they'll have a getaway option so that they can come back tomorrow with the right tools.

[limejuicepowder]

A Monk would stand a better chance against other classes sure, but he'd still get his butt handed to him by Psions, Psychic Warriors, Warblades, Crusaders, and Swordsages. Barbarians, Rogues, and Fighters would find it more difficult and yet could still probably beat the Monk most of the time.


Eh, as a lover of the angry ones, I'm going to nitpick this one: I don't think a stock monk has a chance in hell against a stock barb. At very low levels, rage is extremely good, providing significant boosts to the two most important stats. Even using the elite array, a raging human barb has 19 str and 18 con. Assuming he hasn't traded it out, the monk can't even run away for the duration of the rage because of fast movement.

If the barb wins initiative, he's going to charge and likely kill the monk in one shot. If the monk wins initiative, basically his only chance is to grapple (the barb's hit points would easily absorb a charge from the monk, and the monk would get then get squashed). Now I'm not terrible familiar with the grapple rules, but it seems to me the barb would still stand a decent chance making untrained unarmed strikes, using his superior strength and toughness to carry the day.

I'm not saying the monk has no chance, I'm just saying he would have to get pretty lucky. Honestly, I think barb is one of the best classes in the level 2 or lower range (outside of ToB).

[Story]

Seemingly, you misunderstood the point of the challenge. The idea was not to have optimized solo level 1 characters (APL 0.3) up against an optimized EL 7 encounter, which could only really end in disaster, but to demonstrate relative class effectiveness against a fairly "stock" (and also extremely difficult) challenge. At which it appears to have worked; the 4-man level 3 party killed the barbarian, optimization and all, two out of three times, but failed against the wizard on all occasions.


To be fair, the Barbarian would have (barely) survived the other two matches if he had picked a different totem.



Actually, an optimized wizard would swap Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative using an ACF from Unearthed Arcana, leaving the same amount of feats left as before. In fact, Story's wizard is missing a human bonus feat.

Oops, I can't believe I forgot the level 3 feat. Oh well, it'd probably be Craft Wonderous Item.


True, but that's because the defenders of Monk see the Wizard as the one to beat. That if they can just topple him everyone will acknowledge the Monk as a really good class like they believe it is. It's probably just because they can deflect attention away from the Monks weaknesses when they lose by claiming it's just that the Wizard is overpowered, and not that the Monk is underpowered. When actually both those things are true..

I think another possible factor is that to the untrained eye, a Monk appears to be the perfect anti-spellcaster with it's all good saves and SR. And Wizard is the archetypical squishy caster.

[limejuicepowder]

I think another possible factor is that to the untrained eye, a Monk appears to be the perfect anti-spellcaster with it's all good saves and SR. And Wizard is the archetypical squishy caster.

This is the reason I started the thread actually (I am not a monk defender). I just wanted to see if at a low enough level the superficial, number-based advantages a monk has vs a spell caster would be enough to win the day.

[Flickerdart]

This is the reason I started the thread actually (I am not a monk defender). I just wanted to see if at a low enough level the superficial, number-based advantages a monk has vs a spell caster would be enough to win the day.
It doesn't even have number-based advantages. At level 1, the Monk's +0 BAB and Wizard's 0 armour cancel each other out, meaning it's a contest between the Wizard's secondary or tertiary score (Dexterity) and one of the Monk's four necessary scores (Strength). Chances are that in a straight up one guy punches the other scenario, there's only a 50% chance to hit. Meanwhile, the save DC for a spell is the Wizard's primary score +1 vs 2+one of the Monk's four necessary scores, meaning that even without doing any DC pumping, the Wizard is almost guaranteed to have a better than even chance of landing the spell.

[Coidzor]

This is the reason I started the thread actually (I am not a monk defender). I just wanted to see if at a low enough level the superficial, number-based advantages a monk has vs a spell caster would be enough to win the day.

I think more attempts have been made to model the similar conundrum of fighter versus wizard at level one to low levels to see where the sticking point is.

And then people started having fun with it by having fun times demonstrating how wizards could be built to outfight fighters from level one.

[Pickford]

If easily purchased core items were allowed on both sides, then when the wizard wins initiative he would just use a whip feather token and win.

Except the Monk who has a high grapple bonus actually has a good chance of shrugging off the token or getting out of it if it does land, the wizard does not. If that's not kosher I'd just pick up the brooch that negates magic missile, easily shrugging off the damage the wizard can deal.


The wizard also was only slightly optimised, and not at all against melee. For one thing, he was core only. The spells he chose were effective, yes, but not specifically against monks or melee combatants: web shuts down everything equally well. In fact, melee combatants with high strength, like your monk, have the best chance of moving through a web. In fact, web works best against a large number of combatants, and so does flaming sphere. They aren't meant to be used in one on one fights.
In fact, there are a number of very useful non-core ACF's which were ignored specifically to give the monk a fighting chance. If abrupt jaunt was allowed, for example, the monk would have no chance at all of winning, since any attack or grapple attempt or feather token would be avoided, and then the wizard would cast web.

Except that Web requires spawn points which, along with cover, don't apparently exist in the area setup for this encounter (which doesn't particularly make any sense, how did 2 3rd level characters get onto a demiplane to begin with?) Web shuts down nothing if you can't cast it because the minimum requirements don't exist.


Now that's just not true. There was only one saving throw permitted, the initial save against web, and I had a huge indented block of text that explained what happened if the monk made the save. Well, there was also the saving throw vs. Flaming Sphere, but I assumed the monk passed that.

I was pointing out the assumptions that the monk failed his saves vs the flaming sphere, ending the encounter (when the monk actually has a very good chance of making the save).


As to making the worst possible choice at every step, I used my best judgement to determine the monks actions. I did forget about the chance the monk had to burn through the web with Fiery Fist, but that would have gotten him killed as well, as I explained above. I did assume that a monk optimised for charging would charge, in fact, you suggested it:

The 75% chance of dying is if he charges, unarmed damage + fiery fist doesn't include flying kick damage, so it would be less. That was a mistake, actually, I forgot about being flatfooted (I don't have much actual game experience). Taking that into account, the monk has a 90% chance of killing the wizard on a charge, and a 60% chance of killing the wizard on a grapple. Most of the rest of the time, the wizard wins. And that's still only if you win initiative, which is unlikely.

Ok, so the wizard has a higher chance of winning it goes 1st and the monk has a higher chance of winning if it goes 1st...how is that not basically even?


Sleep is a bad example, not suggested by me. The wizard I used couldn't even cast sleep. In fact, casting sleep takes a full round, not a full round action, so it's kind of a death sentence. Colour spray is better, web is the best, which is why I used web.

Agreed about sleep, there's also the possibility the monk is an elf (not in this scenario, but it's possible) in which case the random wizard who loaded out with sleep maybe just dies because they picked wrong that morning.


Emphasis mine. No one said anything about feats, other than being core only, which was ignored in this particular match up for the monk side.

Certain items were banned because it doesn't matter who uses a feather token. A level 3 commoner with 18 dex, improved initiative and some other initiative boosting feat would have a better chance of winning against the wizard if he apporpriate wealth by level. He'd also have a better chance of winning against the monk.

EDIT: Hey, don't consumables cost more for one shots or something?

Second Edit: Yes, in fact they do. Page 199 of the DMG, limited use items cost 5 times the normal price in one shots. This would make feather tokens and most potions (except level 1 potions) almost prohibitively expensive. If a limit of "no item may be worth more than half WBL" was imposed, then they wouldn't be allowed at all.

Yeah if we were playing a one-shot random dungeon I see nothing about arbitrary character duels that take place on demi-planes there.

Strider: Web doesn't work, and if consumables are out you're arbitrarily empowering the wizard as non-consumable magic items are basically useless at 3rd level. Higher levels of WBL favor non-casters over casters.

Rejusu: If we're assuming this is a demiplane with 0 cover it favors anyone with a bow at 2 range increments. I could just give the monk a longbow and martial weapon proficiency longbow argue that we start out 200' away from each other and shoot you once a round, maintaining distance. You die in 3 rounds, no 3rd level wizard spell can even reach me. Would that be a fair consideration of wizard or monk abilities? No, but it would work every single time and flying or levitating wouldn't help (Invisibility? Ha, lasts 3 rounds, the monk would just run away until it wears off)

Point being, many of these conditions favor particular classes over others. (No cover, no chance of a sneak attack class hiding; except ninja of course) And it's not about beating the wizard 100% of the time, it's about an even fight. Each class basically winning if they go first is an even fight.

Story: This does make me reflect that if I wanted to make things harder I'd buff up save stats and let str drop some (i.e. 12 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 14 wis; grab the cloak of resistance giving reflex 8; fort 6; will 6 (+2 vs enchantment) dropping the save required on web (assuming it could even happen) to an 8 to beat, sleep to a 7....of course I suppose I could just pick up lightning reflexes and iron will to drop those to 6 and 5 respectively.

tuggyne: The thing is a fighter who choses terrible feats isn't just 'generic' they are crippled. If you want generic, pick the PHBII feats listed by character level. And as for mage vs group, I didn't see that, but I'd be hard pressed to see how a 1st level mage kills a 3rd level mage but not vice versa. (I was distracted by the horribly bad builds, but I noticed these four characters were starting in a perfect square, ripe for the picking...color spray?)

And that barbarian assumed max 1st level wealth to afford the horse and the lance. Clever, but absurd. If the fighter had invested in more than a single weapon (say....a spear) the barb would have died on the first charge. Underplaying NPCs is another fair charge on that.

Edit:
Flickerdart: The distinction is the monk gets a bonus to their 'save ac' net +1 whereas the mage actually has to invest in dex, they get no bonus. So for a wizard with 11 int, the monk has to roll over a 9 to not be hit, whereas for the dex/str being bonusless, the monk only has to roll over a 10. (i.e. it's 5% less likely that the mage will succeed on their action).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Higher levels of WBL favor non-casters over casters.

I'm sorry, but what? Casters make significantly better use of their WBL than mundanes, even before considering that casters can essentially get double the WBL available to mundanes, via crafting. They have significantly greater flexibility in what items they choose, get more of those items, and get greater effects to boot. And then there's the fact that they tend to posess, in class, the ability to negate the magical items and gear found on mundanes.

I'd like to hear your justification for the assertion that "Higher levels of WBL favor non-casters over casters."

[Pickford]

I'm sorry, but what? Casters make significantly better use of their WBL than mundanes, even before considering that casters can essentially get double the WBL available to mundanes, via crafting. They have significantly greater flexibility in what items they choose, get more of those items, and get greater effects to boot. And then there's the fact that they tend to posess, in class, the ability to negate the magical items and gear found on mundanes.

I'd like to hear your justification for the assertion that "Higher levels of WBL favor non-casters over casters."

Sure: WBL allows you to buff your saves more than a caster can buff their spell DCs. There are also a significant number of expensive items that completely negate spells. In short there is little to nothing a caster can do to overcome that advantage. Look up Ioun stones for example.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Sure: WBL allows you to buff your saves more than a caster can buff their spell DCs.

Please cite your sources on this. And do note that while your mundane may spend a great deal of their WBL to increase their saves, it keeps them from spending that WBL on their AC and other defenses. The Wizard can change to attack those at no real cost. And that's even assuming the Wizard is using spells which allow a save or any other defense. Which isn't a particularly safe bet, given the presence of "No Save, Just Suck" spells. And similarly be aware that a Wizard has several ways of casting any spell they know, and consequently will not require any rest to change which defense they are attacking.


There are also a significant number of expensive items that completely negate spells. In short there is little to nothing a caster can do to overcome that advantage. Look up Ioun stones for example.

Cite your sources please. Looking at Ioun Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones), for example, I see only two which would be a particular issue, e.g. the Pale Lavender and the Lavender and Green. Neither of which can be assumed to last - I'll summon Solars and/or other spellcasting monsters and we'll burn through those defenses in very little time, all while being essentially immune to your mundane character's actions (at high levels, Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm); at lower levels, various protective spells (e.g. Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm), Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm) + Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm), et al.)).

And do note that these items are expensive, for the mundane character. The outlay to overcome them, for the Wizard, is significantly lower. Therefore it can be assumed that the Wizard will overcome them. It may take careful planning, time, and preparation (acquiring the right items, spells, and feats (none of which preclude the other, mind, as the Wizard has the means to alter all of them)), but the Wizard will overcome them.

[Randomguy]

Except the Monk who has a high grapple bonus actually has a good chance of shrugging off the token or getting out of it if it does land, the wizard does not. If that's not kosher I'd just pick up the brooch that negates magic missile, easily shrugging off the damage the wizard can deal.

The monk's +9 vs. +15 gives him a better chance of escaping than the wizard's +0 vs +15, but he still can't escape fast enough to avoid death by Crossbow Bolts, or by spells. If you give the monk a brooch of shielding that's optimising him specifically against this particular wizard, who isn't even optimized against monks in general. If there was any item cost restriction at all (such as no item maybe cost more than half your wbl) then the brooch would be out of the price range, too.
The wizard could still probably win by switching to a light crossbow after his first magic missile visibly did no damage, since he'd have a huge head start against the monk.



Except that Web requires spawn points which, along with cover, don't apparently exist in the area setup for this encounter (which doesn't particularly make any sense, how did 2 3rd level characters get onto a demiplane to begin with?) Web shuts down nothing if you can't cast it because the minimum requirements don't exist.

With this set of spells prepared victory would be less likely since 2 level 2 spell slots are now useless. You could still win with Grease (50% chance of success) + Magic Missile twice + Flaming Sphere/Acid Splash + good use of familiar, though.

With a better spells known + spells prepared, you could still win with better odds. For example; Glitterdust has a 55% chance to blind, followed by magic missiles as normal. A 60% chance, if you fill in the missing feat with Greater Spell Focus. And blockade will stop a charge if you bring in spells from out of core.

A fully optimized wizard would win with certainty, web or no web. With abrupt jaunt and a huge chance of going first thanks to improved initiative as a bonus feat (using an ACF), obtain familiar (hummingbird) and nerverskitter, the wizard just needs to Jaunt around and use blasty spells, or incendiary slime from complete mage + scorching ray.



I was pointing out the assumptions that the monk failed his saves vs the flaming sphere, ending the encounter (when the monk actually has a very good chance of making the save).


From my earlier post:


Even if the monk saves against the sphere, the web lights on fire, dealing at least 2 damage, no save.
From the post that you quoted, the one right above where you typed this:

Well, there was also the saving throw vs. Flaming Sphere, but I assumed the monk passed that.




Ok, so the wizard has a higher chance of winning it goes 1st and the monk has a higher chance of winning if it goes 1st...how is that not basically even?

Because for one thing, the wizard has a much higher chance of going 1st. For another, this monk is fully optimised, while the wizard is core only, missing a feat and doesn't even know he's got 1 on 1 combat ahead of him, as made evident by the fact he has silent image prepared.



Rejusu: If we're assuming this is a demiplane with 0 cover it favors anyone with a bow at 2 range increments. I could just give the monk a longbow and martial weapon proficiency longbow argue that we start out 200' away from each other and shoot you once a round, maintaining distance. You die in 3 rounds, no 3rd level wizard spell can even reach me. Would that be a fair consideration of wizard or monk abilities? No, but it would work every single time and flying or levitating wouldn't help (Invisibility? Ha, lasts 3 rounds, the monk would just run away until it wears off)
Try Obscuring Mist + a hide check, thanks to the borked spot penalties over a distance.


Sure: WBL allows you to buff your saves more than a caster can buff their spell DCs. There are also a significant number of expensive items that completely negate spells. In short there is little to nothing a caster can do to overcome that advantage. Look up Ioun stones for example.
I'd actually agree with pickford here. More money gets a monk a few useful spell like stuff that wizards already have free, like flight and freedom of movement. A monk with items is orders of magnitude more powerful than a monk without items, but a wizard with items grows in power by less.
That said, there's still a huge power gap. Wizards can counter an ioun stone or a rod of absorption with area battlefield control spells or wall spells followed by summoned monsters, for example.

[Pickford]

Please cite your sources on this. And do note that while your mundane may spend a great deal of their WBL to increase their saves, it keeps them from spending that WBL on their AC and other defenses. The Wizard can change to attack those at no real cost. And that's even assuming the Wizard is using spells which allow a save or any other defense. Which isn't a particularly safe bet, given the presence of "No Save, Just Suck" spells. And similarly be aware that a Wizard has several ways of casting any spell they know, and consequently will not require any rest to change which defense they are attacking.

Actually it doesn't for the monk, dex and wisdom 'are' AC. Sources? the scaling of DC checks: Spell DC is 10 + spell level + primary casting stat. Two of those are essentially static, and the primary casting stat goes up 1 for every 2 points of stat increase. The competence bonus books cancel out and the resistee can pick up enhancement bonuses to resistance relatively cheap. For each +5 to resistance the caster must pick up +10 to their primary casting stat or fall behind. And of course it does, but the vast majority of spells 'do' allow a save and/or spell resistance.


Cite your sources please. Looking at Ioun Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones), for example, I see only two which would be a particular issue, e.g. the Pale Lavender and the Lavender and Green. Neither of which can be assumed to last - I'll summon Solars and/or other spellcasting monsters and we'll burn through those defenses in very little time, all while being essentially immune to your mundane character's actions (at high levels, Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm); at lower levels, various protective spells (e.g. Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm), Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm) + Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm), et al.)).

Yeah, those ioun stones, the spellcaster doesn't get items even remotely that debilitating against a melee character.

The caster only gets one cast a round, among other things a solar can't be summoned, it needs gate which costs you xp. At high levels a wizard can't even touch the monk with normal spells, as he can go ethereal (then you have to burn spells just to see him), by which time it's too late...one touch and the wizard has to pass a DC 20+ fort save (with a +6 fort save this is not likely from the wizard) or die. Of course, this all works under the false assumption a wizard


And do note that these items are expensive, for the mundane character. The outlay to overcome them, for the Wizard, is significantly lower. Therefore it can be assumed that the Wizard will overcome them. It may take careful planning, time, and preparation (acquiring the right items, spells, and feats (none of which preclude the other, mind, as the Wizard has the means to alter all of them)), but the Wizard will overcome them.

If the wizard 'makes' their own it costs them xp, which means they are automatically at least one level behind. So it wouldn't be proper to say level 20 wizard vs 20 monk, it would be level 19...or 18...or 17 wizard vs 20 monk.

And nobody is arguing that wizards, to survive, don't require planning ahead, but they don't exactly auto-win against a monk that is played even remotely to its strengths.

Also...we were just discussing a happenstance meeting, so planning was meant to be out.

edit:
Oh right, randomguy:
That's at least 3 rounds of spells there.

The monk could run (160') out of range after the glitterdust wait for it to pass and then run back. Wizard couldn't do anything offensive till they close distance again (plink with crossbow for high -to hit?)

And the wizard 'is' optimized to go first, I suppose you could make the case that Story 'always' picks up improved initiative, but if going first is everything, and making saves is everything (and having high hp is everything) the monk would be drastically remade along those lines, this really does depend on how one prioritizes as to how the monk does.

I too favor the use of manipulating the battlefield (disintigrating to make pits under people, that will always be fun).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm going to wait till tomorrow (really later today) to respond to the rest, as I really ought to be sleeping, but one quick thing:


If the wizard 'makes' their own it costs them xp, which means they are automatically at least one level behind. So it wouldn't be proper to say level 20 wizard vs 20 monk, it would be level 19...or 18...or 17 wizard vs 20 monk.

Yeah, no. Between a XP being a River, the Thought Bottle, and Doing the Wight Thing, crafting doesn't leave a Wizard at least one level behind. Not even close.

[Pickford]

I'm going to wait till tomorrow (really later today) to respond to the rest, as I really ought to be sleeping, but one quick thing:

Yeah, no. Between a XP being a River, the Thought Bottle, and Doing the Wight Thing, crafting doesn't leave a Wizard at least one level behind. Not even close.

It does if they're on the same team, plus you have to 'get' the thought bottle...plus that costs 500xp everytime you use it, so you're down at least that, which means you 'are' behind at least 1 level.

Dunno what the other two refer to (river/wight thing?) but presumably they have catches as well. The only way to make that 'pay' would be to create items that cost more than 500xp (i.e. make use of at least one wish then use it?)...but you'd still be hemorhaging the 500xp per go-round.

[ArcturusV]

Not really. I mean you have things like Ambrosia, Liquid Pain, and Soul Sacrifices to pay your XP costs for you. Plus, people overestimate the XP costs. Yes, there might be a small time where someone is ahead of you by dint that they have 1005 XP and you have been making scrolls so you're only at 998 XP. But it's never this huge, huge gap that you seem to think it is.

But mostly that thing is that XP gain is exponential, while XP costs for crafting are linear. This means you typically keep gaining more XP. There's not going to be adventures where you end up at a zero sum because of crafting, or a negative.

Also because levels ARE exponential benchmarks and not linear it means that even as the gulf of XP you spent (presuming you don't catch it up or negate it someway), the difference is never going to be more than 1 level in reality. And even then that only exists when the party is hovering near a level benchmark, and is usually easy crushed by even a quickie adventure, tying up the levels again.

[Randomguy]

edit:
Oh right, randomguy:
That's at least 3 rounds of spells there.

The monk could run (160') out of range after the glitterdust wait for it to pass and then run back. Wizard couldn't do anything offensive till they close distance again (plink with crossbow for high -to hit?)

I never said anything about it all being in one round. That would have been a series of possible spells, to cast over a series of rounds.

Wizard moves 30 feet and then casts long range spell (130 feet range). Wizard is not amused. Also, you take a penalty to AC from running, so it balances out.

[Draz74]

OK, pet peeve: Thought Bottle really shouldn't be brought up as an aspect of wizard power. That's like letting the Monk buy Dust of Sneezing & Choking to have a chance at beating the Wizard ... only even worse. Thought Bottle is broken. It single-handedly can multiply the Wizard's WBL manyfold.

Doing the Wight Thing is similarly cheese that very few DMs would let fly.

Besides, item crafting really doesn't even need to be invoked for discussing Wizard vs. Monk or even Wizard's magic item use vs. Monk's magic item use.

Non-caster classes are boosted more by magic items than magical types, percentage-wise. Probably the other way around, in terms of absolute power differences. So both sides of this argument are right in their own way.

[Pickford]

I never said anything about it all being in one round. That would have been a series of possible spells, to cast over a series of rounds.

Wizard moves 30 feet and then casts long range spell (130 feet range). Wizard is not amused. Also, you take a penalty to AC from running, so it balances out.

Except they weren't 5' away from each other, so it's still out of range. (if the mage 'were' 5' away there would have been an AoO, and the mage would likely be dead instead of chasing a blind monk)

Arcturus, it's still a level behind at any given moment. If one assumes the monk is level 20, it's safe to assume the wizardis level 19 and so on (if they spent xp instead of wbl)

This is all a side thing, the monk still has a 50/50 shot of killing the wizard in any given encounter before gear happens. After gear? It gets tilted for the monk, but that's ok. The wizard has phenomenal cosmic power! (itty bitty living space)

[ArcturusV]

Actually no, it only presumes a "Level lower" at a very narrow space. There is no mechanical difference level wise, for example, with the Monk who has 3200 XP (Level 3), and the Wizard who has 3180 XP (Also level 3). Once you are over that cusp between levels... they are the same level. Which means over 99% of the time, they are the same level. Otherwise that extra 20 XP the monk has over the Wizard means diddly. Other than the Wizard had 20 XP worth of crafted gear that the monk doesn't. Which is quite important.

I'm not getting on my knees and sucking E-Wizard, nor am I going for Monks. I'm just pointing out your assumption there that the wizard and monk will be at different levels is... realistically, false. You won't run into a time where a monk is at level 20, and the wizard is at level 16. And once you get to a point where you do start subbing XP materials for simple easy things like Ambrosia, Liquid Pain, etc, the gulf never widens any further. Not everyone uses it, but it's out there. It's piss easy to get and use. Souls as Power is also easy to do and at any level really.

[Pickford]

Actually no, it only presumes a "Level lower" at a very narrow space. There is no mechanical difference level wise, for example, with the Monk who has 3200 XP (Level 3), and the Wizard who has 3180 XP (Also level 3). Once you are over that cusp between levels... they are the same level. Which means over 99% of the time, they are the same level. Otherwise that extra 20 XP the monk has over the Wizard means diddly. Other than the Wizard had 20 XP worth of crafted gear that the monk doesn't. Which is quite important.

I'm not getting on my knees and sucking E-Wizard, nor am I going for Monks. I'm just pointing out your assumption there that the wizard and monk will be at different levels is... realistically, false. You won't run into a time where a monk is at level 20, and the wizard is at level 16. And once you get to a point where you do start subbing XP materials for simple easy things like Ambrosia, Liquid Pain, etc, the gulf never widens any further. Not everyone uses it, but it's out there. It's piss easy to get and use. Souls as Power is also easy to do and at any level really.

Yeah, but don't you have to be evil to use it?

[ArcturusV]

Actually Ambrosia is a Good spell (Well, you get it from the spell Harvest Joy which is Good, and causes no harm to the target). It gives you power by enhancing the joy of a subject and creating a material residue of pure joy which can be used as an XP component. So both Good and Evil got options for it.

[TuggyNE]

The monk could run (160') out of range after the glitterdust wait for it to pass and then run back. Wizard couldn't do anything offensive till they close distance again (plink with crossbow for high -to hit?)

This is kinda of a stupid little nitpick, but being blind makes you go at half speed. Details like this matter.

[Rejusu]

Rejusu: If we're assuming this is a demiplane with 0 cover it favors anyone with a bow at 2 range increments. I could just give the monk a longbow and martial weapon proficiency longbow argue that we start out 200' away from each other and shoot you once a round, maintaining distance. You die in 3 rounds, no 3rd level wizard spell can even reach me. Would that be a fair consideration of wizard or monk abilities? No, but it would work every single time and flying or levitating wouldn't help (Invisibility? Ha, lasts 3 rounds, the monk would just run away until it wears off)

Point being, many of these conditions favor particular classes over others. (No cover, no chance of a sneak attack class hiding; except ninja of course) And it's not about beating the wizard 100% of the time, it's about an even fight. Each class basically winning if they go first is an even fight.

And it's been pointed out that it only comes down to who wins initiative at low levels and that even it's more a case that the Monk has to win initiative to even stand a chance. Add in the fact that the Wizard can easily have a better chance of winning initiative and I'd hardly call that even.

Also out of reach of all third level spells? Off the top of my head I can name one spell (fireball) that proves this as incorrect. Not optimal for fighting Monks but you're not untouchable at that distance. And as has already been mentioned there's a number of ways to render the Wizard hard to attack.

Plus once you start tailoring the build to the fight you're just weakening your argument. The strength of the Wizard is that it has a way to solve the majority of problems without specifically preparing for them. That same Wizard could face off against a number of other classes under the exact same conditions and still come out on top. Your Monk with a bow on the other hand? I'd like to see him pull that off against a ranger or uber charger barbarian.

You then claim that a Wizard can't even touch a Monk at high levels with spells, but this couldn't be further from the truth. At high levels a Monk can't even touch a Wizard. D&D is the textbook example of linear fighters and quadratic wizards. Casters scale exponentially in power, and magic items are the only way for non casters to try and keep up.

It doesn't help that most of the Monks higher level of class features are worse replications of spells. Slow fall that only works next to a wall? Once per day dimension door at half Caster level? And you mentioned going ethereal at one point, possibly the most ridiculous example of this. At 19th level you can do something a twelfth level Wizard can do.

Except not only can he do it longer (multiple casts, extend spell), at 17th level he can do it for a minute per level and bring 5 friends. Presumably so he can give 17th level monks an advance preview. Putting it simply if the Wizard wanted to hold a party on the ethereal plane the Monk would have to leave before the orderves came out.

You talk about how the Wizard needs to burn spells (even though you'd only need one) to see him. Except since the Wizard has a lot of spells this is hardly a problem. Secondly it's based on the unlikely assumption that the Wizard won't have special senses either from a buff or magic item.

You say that the Wizard only gets one cast a round, but this is far from true. From the mighty time stop to the humble quicken a Wizard has numerous options for pulling out more spells in a short space of time.

Finally you claim that all it takes is one touch from the Monk like the Wizard will actually give you the opportunity. When at high level play Wizards are nigh untouchable to anyone but other casters. Yes at low levels a Monk might stand a chance but at level 20 there's no contest.

However it sounds like the only way to convince you would be with a demonstration. Make a character and I'm sure someone in this thread would meet your challenge. Personally I would, but my main stomping ground is Psionics so I'm not confident I could do the Wizard proper justice. However Monk 20 vs Psion 20 would still be no contest.

P. S. The XP rivers only catch is that your DM follow the rules for awarding experience. Essentially XP is assigned based on character level. A higher level character gets less experience compared to a lower level character for completing the same encounter. It's designed to allow lower level characters to catch up.

However class levels aren't the only source of power in D&D. By funnelling off this extra XP into LA buyoff, spells, or items the character stays at a lower level but their XP is actually higher. So no, with crafting they won't necessarily end up a level behind. And even if they did, it wouldn't make a difference. Especially with their arsenal of magic items. Besides as has already been noted crafting is not even necessary for victory. It's just yet another of the Wizards many, many options.

[Story]

Also, what on earth did you mean by a +6 Fort save being unlikely from a Wizard? At the level you can go ethereal, +6 is their base save.

Without even optimizing it, they'll probably have +2 from con, +6 base, and +5 resistance bonus giving at least +13.

[Karnith]

And you mentioned going ethereal at one point, possibly the most ridiculous example of this. At 19th level you can do something a twelfth level Wizard can do.
Extremely minor nitpick - Ethereal Jaunt is a 7th-level spell, meaning that it takes a thirteenth-level wizard to cast it.

I agree with the gist of your post, though.

[Rejusu]

Extremely minor nitpick - Ethereal Jaunt is a 7th-level spell, meaning that it takes a thirteenth-level wizard to cast it.

I agree with the gist of your post, though.

My mistake, I was going off memory and didn't look it up. It's close enough that it near enough makes no difference though.

[shaikujin]

Casters scale exponentially in power, and magic items are the only way for non casters to try and keep up


Ahhh, that's the word I was looking for, "exponentially"!

On average, every school has about 5 spells for each spell level.
There are 8 main schools in Core.
That's 40 different spells each level. Meaning 40 different options, from direct damage, damage over time, buff, save or suck, save or die, battlefield control, utility, summons, up to the ones like Time Stop, Wish, Gate, Genesis etc.

With that 1 single class feature (ie Spell casting), that's a whole lot of versatility.

Yes, there's a limit to how many you know initially (but you can easily increase your repertoire by buying/find new spell scrolls), and a limit to which of these you choose to use everyday.

A level 3 wizard knows 2 x level 1 spell, 1 x level 2 spell.
Bonus spells from Int 18 and specializing boosts this to 4 x level 1, 3 x level 2.

Same thing with Initiators from ToB.

Best of all? These abilities automatically scale meaningfully as you gain in levels (via CL and IL).

Non casters don't get that kind of power or flexibility. Classes like monks get a bunch of fixed abilities like Still Mind and Slow Fall at a certain level, and you are stuck with them forever. Majority are either too niche, don't scale well, replaceable by relatively cheap items, replaceable by spells and there's no easy way to swap them out for any out of potentially 40 other different abilities everyday after an 8 hour nap like casters can choose from potentially 40 different spells.



I do have 1 nitpick though:



Plus once you start tailoring the build to the fight you're just weakening your argument. The strength of the Wizard is that it has a way to solve the majority of problems without specifically preparing for them.


While burning a feat on Longbow martial proficiency is a bit weird, he could have easily just used a Heavy Crossbow that monks are already proficient with.

Just like an intelligently played wizard knows his weakness and will carry a light crossbow for those special moments, an intelligently played monk would similarly know his weakness against ranged enemies and would carry a heavy crossbow to shore up his weakness in those areas.

In this case, I'd see it more as being equipped to deal with different threats rather than tailoring for the fight.

[Pickford]

snip And it's been pointed out that it only comes down to who wins initiative at low levels and that even it's more a case that the Monk has to win initiative to even stand a chance. Add in the fact that the Wizard can easily have a better chance of winning initiative and I'd hardly call that even.

Also out of reach of all third level spells? Off the top of my head I can name one spell (fireball) that proves this as incorrect. Not optimal for fighting Monks but you're not untouchable at that distance. And as has already been mentioned there's a number of ways to render the Wizard hard to attack.

Plus once you start tailoring the build to the fight you're just weakening your argument. The strength of the Wizard is that it has a way to solve the majority of problems without specifically preparing for them. That same Wizard could face off against a number of other classes under the exact same conditions and still come out on top. Your Monk with a bow on the other hand? I'd like to see him pull that off against a ranger or uber charger barbarian.

You then claim that a Wizard can't even touch a Monk at high levels with spells, but this couldn't be further from the truth. At high levels a Monk can't even touch a Wizard. D&D is the textbook example of linear fighters and quadratic wizards. Casters scale exponentially in power, and magic items are the only way for non casters to try and keep up.

It doesn't help that most of the Monks higher level of class features are worse replications of spells. Slow fall that only works next to a wall? Once per day dimension door at half Caster level? And you mentioned going ethereal at one point, possibly the most ridiculous example of this. At 19th level you can do something a twelfth level Wizard can do.

Except not only can he do it longer (multiple casts, extend spell), at 17th level he can do it for a minute per level and bring 5 friends. Presumably so he can give 17th level monks an advance preview. Putting it simply if the Wizard wanted to hold a party on the ethereal plane the Monk would have to leave before the orderves came out.

You talk about how the Wizard needs to burn spells (even though you'd only need one) to see him. Except since the Wizard has a lot of spells this is hardly a problem. Secondly it's based on the unlikely assumption that the Wizard won't have special senses either from a buff or magic item.

You say that the Wizard only gets one cast a round, but this is far from true. From the mighty time stop to the humble quicken a Wizard has numerous options for pulling out more spells in a short space of time.

Finally you claim that all it takes is one touch from the Monk like the Wizard will actually give you the opportunity. When at high level play Wizards are nigh untouchable to anyone but other casters. Yes at low levels a Monk might stand a chance but at level 20 there's no contest.

However it sounds like the only way to convince you would be with a demonstration. Make a character and I'm sure someone in this thread would meet your challenge. Personally I would, but my main stomping ground is Psionics so I'm not confident I could do the Wizard proper justice. However Monk 20 vs Psion 20 would still be no contest.

P. S. The XP rivers only catch is that your DM follow the rules for awarding experience. Essentially XP is assigned based on character level. A higher level character gets less experience compared to a lower level character for completing the same encounter. It's designed to allow lower level characters to catch up.

However class levels aren't the only source of power in D&D. By funnelling off this extra XP into LA buyoff, spells, or items the character stays at a lower level but their XP is actually higher. So no, with crafting they won't necessarily end up a level behind. And even if they did, it wouldn't make a difference. Especially with their arsenal of magic items. Besides as has already been noted crafting is not even necessary for victory. It's just yet another of the Wizards many, many options.

(Each break should correspond to a break in paragraphs from the quotes in the spoiler area)

And the wizard 'only' has a chance if they get the initiative 'and' the monk fails several rolls that barely have a 50/50 chance of succeeding. If the monk wins initiative the chances of killing the mage are approaching 100%. If anything that is balanced in favor of the monk.

I forgot about fireball. A pity they aren't 5th level with fireball memorized.

If it makes you feel better we could just restrict ourselves to the PHBII suggested spells/feats and see how those characters match up for all types.

Really? With just the base saves (no stats) the monk reduces the DCs of spells to the following: 0th: -2, 1st: -1; 2nd: 0; 3rd: 1; 4th: 2; 5th: 3; 6th: 4; 7th: 5; 8th: 6; 9th: 7; With gear added on the monk would almost certainly make saves against spells of 'every' level. Let's just suit out the monk for 20th: +5 cloak of resistance; gloves of dex +6 (+3 ref); pale green prism (+1 comp saves is the relevant stat); periapt of wis +6 (+3 will); So just from those items (which are cheap): +9 further to ref, +9 to will, +6 to fort; The save DC is now 1 (fort) or -3 (ref/will) for 9th level spells and may be higher 'if' the primary casting stat blows the monk's 'waaay' out of the water. (like +11 vs +1), in which case there's almost a 50/50 shot of a 9th level spell working. And that's the best case scenario. So my assessment that things get better for monks seems...correct.
That's on top of SR 30 which means there's a 50/50 chance (for SR spells) that it doesn't even get to the 'save' part. (again, not taking into account some magic items or possible feats to improve spell penetration)

The point of the monk abilities is they are valuable. Slow fall is quite useful for mobility (esp in cities) and generally people aren't poofing into a void to fall, they fall off a ledge, that means a ready made wall tends to be 'right there'. A melee class that can port to its target is invaluable, and 20 rounds of ethereal can get the wizard to burn up to 20 rounds of spells just 'trying' to target the monk in the right circumstances. (the monk can just pop out of ethereal and if the wizard wants to play they have to end the spell...requiring 'another' casting when the monk just goes ethereal again)Again, nothing to frown on and devastating when combined with the ability to shrug off most magic attacks.

Time stop is great, but you can't actually touch someone when you do it (sure you could try layering aoe, but that's maybe 2 spells for a measily 2d6 in a round, generally assuming the monk doesn't make their save...which is not at all likely).

For the xp river: What do you think is preventing any non-spellcaster from doing exactly the same thing? Crafting allows anyone to supply the xp component, and npcs can be hired to cast the necessary spells fairly cheaply. Heck, if we're just 'assuming' the characters did this and yet are still level 20, the monk could hire an npc to make 25 scrolls of wish, supplying the xp himself with the thought bottle (so 1/10th the xp price) and have max inherent bonuses to all stats.

edit: Story: I guess I meant relatively unlikely? :smallcool:

shaikujin: There are actually something like 2000 spells if you include more than core. But the wizard still has ~4-6 choices per level. So 1/10th of the total number of spells and the wizard has to pick 'just' those at any given level. (yes yes alacritous cogitation, but that's just ~4-11 spells, maybe) I'm not suggesting wizards aren't versatile, but they are over-rated. And the save DCs don't scale with level, they only scale with casting attribute which doesn't scale well at all. As for fixed abilities: Slow fall caps out at any distance...so that's not bad. Still mind is +2 save, that's worth 4 primary casting stat (i.e. 4/5 attribute increases to the primary stat)

[Augmental]

and 20 rounds of ethereal can get the wizard to burn up to 20 rounds of spells just 'trying' to target the monk in the right circumstances.

The monk can't attack the wizard while ethereal, so the wizard readies a No Save Just Suck spell for when the monk pops out of etherealness.


(the monk can just pop out of ethereal and if the wizard wants to play they have to end the spell...requiring 'another' casting when the monk just goes ethereal again)

Or the wizard casts Summon Monster 9 and has his summons ready an action to kill the monk when he jumps out of etherealness.

[Pickford]

The monk can't attack the wizard while ethereal, so the wizard readies a No Save Just Suck spell for when the monk pops out of etherealness.

Or the wizard casts Summon Monster 9 and has his summons ready an action to kill the monk when he jumps out of etherealness.

If it's melee that's useless because the Wizard doesn't know 'where' the monk will pop back in (the monk being able to move 90' courtesy of the movement increases) if it's ranged...again likely useless if the monk doesn't pop in where they are aiming (ready actions are required to be pretty specific) The monk could easily pop back behind the wizard, spoiling his spellcast, or just giving the monk a free AoO to grapple the monk in place (both preventing the spell 'and' screwing the wizard royally if they don't have still/non-somatic spells prepared).

Lastly...summon monster doesn't work like that, you have to be able to communicate with them to do anything (direct it not to attack, attack a particular enemy, or other undefined actions). That being said, most of the monsters on that list don't speak common. Also, as the casting time is 1 round, there's no time to direct the monster to do anything at all before the monk acts again (meaningeven if you 'can' communicate, no readied actions or direction would be allowed as it's not your turn anymore).

[Rejusu]

Just like an intelligently played wizard knows his weakness and will carry a light crossbow for those special moments, an intelligently played monk would similarly know his weakness against ranged enemies and would carry a heavy crossbow to shore up his weakness in those areas.

Three reasons I suspect:

1) No strength to damage on Crossbows, making their damage output less.

2) Heavy crossbow requires a full-round action to reload, this is why everyone uses a light crossbow instead.

3) Light crossbow would be firing at more than two range increments away at that kind of distance, meaning a -4 to attack rolls.

I agree that carrying a crossbow for when you need to attack at a distance is not tailoring, and in fact only prudent. However burning a feat specifically to pick up a weapon you normally wouldn't use for fighting in specific circumstances? That is undoubtedly tailoring the character to the fight.


And the wizard 'only' has a chance if they get the initiative 'and' the monk fails several rolls that barely have a 50/50 chance of succeeding. If the monk wins initiative the chances of killing the mage are approaching 100%. If anything that is balanced in favor of the monk.

I think you have that backwards.


I forgot about fireball. A pity they aren't 5th level with fireball memorized.

Note, when you say "third level spells" like most people I read "3rd level spells". Not "spells a wizard would have at level three". But again all this shows is that the Monks chances are better at lower levels. It doesn't do anything to show the viability of a Monk against a Wizard at higher levels, which is where the Monks chances of victory drop rapidly to 0%. It's also in a specifically tailored situation of your own design, which as I mentioned before only goes to weaken your argument. If the Monk can only win in situations which favour it, that doesn't show the strength of the class.


If it makes you feel better we could just restrict ourselves to the PHBII suggested spells/feats and see how those characters match up for all types.

I don't have time to look over them but I doubt it'd really prove anything. A lot of WotC printed sample characters are very poorly thought out, like the Ur-priest who doesn't even qualify for the PrC.


Really? With just the base saves (no stats) the monk reduces the DCs of spells to the following: 0th: -2, 1st: -1; 2nd: 0; 3rd: 1; 4th: 2; 5th: 3; 6th: 4; 7th: 5; 8th: 6; 9th: 7; With gear added on the monk would almost certainly make saves against spells of 'every' level. Let's just suit out the monk for 20th: +5 cloak of resistance; gloves of dex +6 (+3 ref); pale green prism (+1 comp saves is the relevant stat); periapt of wis +6 (+3 will); So just from those items (which are cheap): +9 further to ref, +9 to will, +6 to fort; The save DC is now 1 (fort) or -3 (ref/will) for 9th level spells and may be higher 'if' the primary casting stat blows the monk's 'waaay' out of the water. (like +11 vs +1), in which case there's almost a 50/50 shot of a 9th level spell working. And that's the best case scenario. So my assessment that things get better for monks seems...correct.
That's on top of SR 30 which means there's a 50/50 chance (for SR spells) that it doesn't even get to the 'save' part. (again, not taking into account some magic items or possible feats to improve spell penetration)

And all this assumes they use a spell that allows a save. And yes, you're not taking into account the Wizards side of things. Which again is a massive assumption.


The point of the monk abilities is they are valuable. Slow fall is quite useful for mobility (esp in cities) and generally people aren't poofing into a void to fall, they fall off a ledge, that means a ready made wall tends to be 'right there'. A melee class that can port to its target is invaluable, and 20 rounds of ethereal can get the wizard to burn up to 20 rounds of spells just 'trying' to target the monk in the right circumstances. (the monk can just pop out of ethereal and if the wizard wants to play they have to end the spell...requiring 'another' casting when the monk just goes ethereal again)Again, nothing to frown on and devastating when combined with the ability to shrug off most magic attacks.

Really? People in D&D are generally falling off ledges? This is a world where flight is pretty common. You want to quivering palm a flying wizard you have to fight him in the air. And what happens when he dispels your flight effect? You fall, with no wall in sight. Simply put there's no way you're guaranteed to have that wall there. And at the end of the day it's still something a Wizard can do earlier and better for the most part.

Yes the Monks ability can be used as many times as they want per day. But frankly the ability to play at parkour is a rather lacklustre class feature. And when you're falling with no wall in sight as a level 1 Wizard glides down gracefully next to you, you'd wish it wasn't so limited. But you can't cast Wish, so it's a bit of a moot point.

As for a melee class that can port to the target being "invaluable"? Maybe if it could do it more than once per day, and have it available earlier than level 12 (a level 1 Psychic warrior can get access to short distance tactical teleportation). Oh and maybe if it didn't take a STANDARD ACTION, meaning you can't attack on the turn that you use it. And on top of that? If the target didn't also have access to tactical teleportation, that's more effective to boot. You teleported next to the Wizard from 800ft away? Whoops he's zipped 1200ft away before your next round.

As for going ethereal... you're just assuming the Wizard is an idiot at this point. Which REALLY doesn't prove your point. At no point would they waste "20 rounds of spells" trying to target you. Since you're incapable of attacking on the ethereal plane a Wizard can just wait for your duration to run out. Another once-per-day wonder ability.


Time stop is great, but you can't actually touch someone when you do it (sure you could try layering aoe, but that's maybe 2 spells for a measily 2d6 in a round, generally assuming the monk doesn't make their save...which is not at all likely).

This completely misses the point of time stop. It's purpose is defensive, not offensive. It gives the Wizard valuable additional rounds to prepare in. In any combat it's generally the first spell a Wizard will cast. And by the time it ends, in which for the Monk no time will have passed at all, he'll be looking at a magical fortress guarded by two celestial gold wyrms. Any halfway decent Wizard focuses on defence before offence, and they're very strong in both regards.


For the xp river: What do you think is preventing any non-spellcaster from doing exactly the same thing? Crafting allows anyone to supply the xp component, and npcs can be hired to cast the necessary spells fairly cheaply. Heck, if we're just 'assuming' the characters did this and yet are still level 20, the monk could hire an npc to make 25 scrolls of wish, supplying the xp himself with the thought bottle (so 1/10th the xp price) and have max inherent bonuses to all stats.

If you're going to do it that way remember that the spell has to be cast for each day of crafting. More expensive items = more days of crafting = higher service prices. I'm not sure if it works out any cheaper than simply buying the item. Although I'd have to check.

Either way I think you just need to make a level 20 Monk and then someone can actually demonstrate a Wizards true power.

[Karnith]

This completely misses the point of time stop. It's purpose is defensive, not offensive. It gives the Wizard valuable additional rounds to prepare in. In any combat it's generally the first spell a Wizard will cast. And by the time it ends, in which for the Monk no time will have passed at all, he'll be looking at a magical fortress guarded by two celestial gold wyrms. Any halfway decent Wizard focuses on defence before offence, and they're very strong in both regards.
Alternately, during the time stop you can stack Maws of Chaos centered on your opponent for what will be a virtually guaranteed kill once time un-freezes. Which was a fun tactic during a campaign in which I played a high-level focused abjurer.

Or, you can use Forcecage. Or metamagic'd Vortices of Teeth. Or spells modified with Delay Spell. Or if you're limited to core, layer on Cloudkills and Delayed Blast Fireballs.

Time stop can be pretty awesome on the offense, though it's usually better to spend your time doing something else. And that's not even getting into things that are only sort-of offensive, like Shapechanging into something big, buffing yourself, and just beating the monk to death. Or gating/summoning creatures in.

[mattie_p]

Between a XP being a River, the Thought Bottle, and Doing the Wight Thing, crafting doesn't leave a Wizard at least one level behind. Not even close.

I know you were already jumped on for this, but You're Doing It WrongTM. Needs more dusk giant polymorph/inspire greatness shenanigans.

Edit: Needed to color code for clarity.

[Story]

I think XP cost mitigation should considered TO. Not many DMs will allow thought bottles, ambrosia, etc.

It's not like you need free XP to be awesome anyway.


As for ethereal, that's easily disabled. I seem to recall one arena battle here that opened with the Sorceror casting a spell that forces everyone onto the material plane (combined with Time Stop, Wall of Stone and Maw of Chaos of course)

[Rejusu]

I think XP cost mitigation should considered TO. Not many DMs will allow thought bottles, ambrosia, etc.

It's not like you need free XP to be awesome anyway.


As for ethereal, that's easily disabled. I seem to recall one arena battle here that opened with the Sorceror casting a spell that forces everyone onto the material plane (combined with Time Stop, Wall of Stone and Maw of Chaos of course)

True true, but the EXP river is unique in that it's actually based on the DM actually following the rules for awarding experience. And so I think it's fair to say it's not TO. But yeah, anything that whiffs a little of cheese probably shouldn't be brought into a discussion like this.

And yeah, being ethereal is hardly the greatest advantage in the world. Especially when it's only 20 rounds worth of it and there's a wealth of ways of dealing with it.

[Karnith]

And yeah, being ethereal is hardly the greatest advantage in the world. Especially when it's only 20 rounds worth of it and there's a wealth of ways of dealing with it.
Since we're sort of on the topic, is there a way for a monk to deal with a wizard who has two Forcecages (and true seeing/see invisibility, I guess) prepared, without recourse to magic items?

[ArcturusV]

A high Hide and Move Silently skill and concealment?

"How do you beat him?"

"In his bed, with a stick. But on a horse, with a lance, you don't."

To steal a bit of movie dialogue.

[Pickford]

Alternately, during the time stop you can stack Maws of Chaos centered on your opponent for what will be a virtually guaranteed kill once time un-freezes. Which was a fun tactic during a campaign in which I played a high-level focused abjurer.

Or, you can use Forcecage. Or metamagic'd Vortices of Teeth. Or spells modified with Delay Spell. Or if you're limited to core, layer on Cloudkills and Delayed Blast Fireballs.

Time stop can be pretty awesome on the offense, though it's usually better to spend your time doing something else. And that's not even getting into things that are only sort-of offensive, like Shapechanging into something big, buffing yourself, and just beating the monk to death. Or gating/summoning creatures in.

Maws of Chaos is 3.0, so it's not valid, but for the sake of thought puzzle it's a 9th level spell that allows SR and a will save, that means if you get super lucky and roll 4 for a 5 round time stop you can layer up to 3 (assuming you picked time stop + 3 maws). Now the wizard has to beat SR 30 3 times average 1.5 successes, of course, the monk still gets to make a will save to halve the damage from the one(s) that worked, a save that's going to be somewhere between DC -3 (instant success) and 7 (70% success chance) assuming a +11 primary casting modifier on your part. Of course, probability is both saves work, dropping the total damage to 20.

Forcecage gets circumvented by dimension door, though this is a great reason for any melee to pick up boots of teleportation or a rod of cancellation.

Vortex of teeth has SR, so there's a 50/50 of it failing and it does, at best, 24 damage maximized in a 7th level spell slot. Cloudkill: Creatures immune to poison (like a 20th level monk, for example) are unaffected by the spell.

And delayed blast fireball? It's a 6th level spell with both SR and a reflex save. The SR is, again, a 50/50 and the DC on a 6th level spell is between -6 and +5 basically guaranteeing the monk takes no damage from delayed blast fireball, and with improved evasion the monk always takes 1/2 damage even if they somehow fail.

Shapechange isn't bad, but you have to pick your form on your turn, if you're big that just makes it easier to hit you and you don't get bonus hp.


Rejusu: I hardly think a single class is representative of all sample characters, however that's not what I was referencing, in PHBII there are instructions for building various character types including suggested feat trees, WBL, magic items and so forth.

And assuming that a spell allows a save is a fairly safe bet, the vast majority of offensive spells do.

Yes, it's more likely a monk, who doesn't have innate flight, nor any particular reason to 'want' to fly is going to fall off a ledge than out of the void.

Also, abundant step isn't teleport. If you try to teleport randomly or out of sight (and you're not intimately familiar with the region) you will be off by 'miles'. So yeah it gets away, but it also completely ends the encounter. Of course, if I were the monk I'd go ethereal 'before' using abundant step so you didn't know the monk was next to the wizard...then come out and grapple the wizard to death. The best part about being able to do ethereal by rounds is the monk doesn't have to waste it all at once.

I don't know what spell you're getting a fortress from but...ok 2 gold wyrms, somehow...not outsiders so no gate, not on the list of summon monster that seems to leave Dragon Ally which not only costs xp but is 9th level for a big one (except it's all been used up on time-stop and chaos maw shenanigans!...and shapechange...and...how many 9th level spell slots are we claiming now?) At any rate, the monk just goes ethereal, walks past the dumb dragons and inside the castle...now the dragons are uselessly sitting outside and the monk is inside, ethereal, with the wizard. Physical defenses are all too easily bypassed.

Crafting scrolls doesn't work that way.

Story: What spell to pull out of ethereal? You can't target characters during time stop, so it would have to be anti-magic...which would defeat the purpose as no offensive magic could happen...??

Karnith2: Hrm, maybe nothing, of course abundant step is one more way than most other classes have, so it's not exactly awful. I think most everyone has to expend either magic or magic items to get past it.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I know you were already jumped on for this, but You're Doing It WrongTM. Needs more dusk giant polymorph/inspire greatness shenanigans.

Edit: Needed to color code for clarity.

Eh, it'd work. It may not be optimal, but it'd work. And I was tired when I posted, which clearly absolves me of any errors of judgement I may have made in posting[/sarcasm]. And besides, if people are going to call Doing the Wight thing TO, what are they going to think of Dusk Giant Polymorphing/Inspire Greatness Shenanigans?


I think XP cost mitigation should considered TO. Not many DMs will allow thought bottles, ambrosia, etc.

It's not like you need free XP to be awesome anyway.


As for ethereal, that's easily disabled. I seem to recall one arena battle here that opened with the Sorceror casting a spell that forces everyone onto the material plane (combined with Time Stop, Wall of Stone and Maw of Chaos of course)

While it's true that you don't need free XP to be awesome, crafting is something the Wizard can do that the Monk can't really take advantage of. And I must disagree with it being TO - most of the games I've played in have allowed cost mitigation. I recognize that it may be higher op than some or even many games play at, but that doesn't make it TO.

Also, on the subject of Abundant Step (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#abundantStep) (and consequently Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm)) it should be noted that the Dimension Dooring character ends their round by doing so. So it's not particularly useful, on offense, unless you have some means of not being wrecked during the ensuing (or following) round.

Another thing - yes, there are many ways that a Monk can increase their saves and AC and such. However, the Wizard has the distinct advantage of being able to craft custom items, and only needing to focus on one stat (well, two, including Con, but everyone needs to boost Con). Therefore they can craft items with things other than an enhancement bonus. Thus, they are able to pump their needed stats (/Saves/Resistances) much higher than a mundane class which needs Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, for example.

One more thing - regarding directing summoned monsters, do recall that talking is a free action.

[Pickford]

PHB 144: Speaking 'can' be a free action and DMs may or may not allow it off turn or even may require it to be a move/standard action if it's more than a few sentences.

So, both interpretations are possibly right. I'd still argue giving complex orders or instructions is too much to do off-turn and may even be a move action.

[Story]

The Monk's SR is a joke. It can be completely bypassed by a single feat, Arcane Mastery.

Even if the Wizard doesn't take it, they still have a 65%+ chance of beating it (a typical wizard will have at least +2CL without even trying and much more if they actually care about it). Not optimal, but still enough to win when the Monk has no way to even touch the Wizard.

You are right about being immune to Cloudkill though.

[Pickford]

The Monk's SR is a joke. It can be completely bypassed by a single feat, Arcane Mastery.

Even if the Wizard doesn't take it, they still have a 65%+ chance of beating it (a typical wizard will have at least +2CL without even trying and much more if they actually care about it). Not optimal, but still enough to win when the Monk has no way to even touch the Wizard.

You are right about being immune to Cloudkill though.

You would be right about the feat, except you can't take 10: When you're threatened or distracted (combat is specified).

Possible to have +CL (probable even) but it still provides a decent chance of making spells wasted. If I were the wizard I would probably invest in magic items to guarantee my spells landed. (i.e. Ring of Arcane Might; Robes of the Archmagi; possibly Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration and the appropriate ioun stone);

But not everyone spends their wealth that way, or comes across all those items in a campaign. So short of being perfectly tricked out, 30 SR is still pretty uncomfortable for a mage to deal with.

[TuggyNE]

Maws of Chaos is 3.0, so it's not valid

Za? 3.0 material is specifically allowed in 3.5 unless it's been republished in 3.5 material, subject of course to minor changes.


Forcecage gets circumvented by dimension door, though this is a great reason for any melee to pick up boots of teleportation or a rod of cancellation.

That was the reason, I suspect, for mentioning two forcecages, one after the other.


Shapechange isn't bad, but you have to pick your form on your turn, if you're big that just makes it easier to hit you and you don't get bonus hp.

Given that you gain the natural armor of the form, AC is more than likely to go way up, not down. And since Monks do not specialize in damaging touch attacks, this is a problem for them. (Grapple is obviously a bad idea with something several sizes larger.)


And assuming that a spell allows a save is a fairly safe bet, the vast majority of offensive spells do.

Well, the majority, anyway. Unfortunately, that only matters in cases where the remainder that don't allow saves are either suboptimal for some other reason, or the Wizard in question isn't bothering to use them.

Almost anything that's effective can be spammed, in short.


Yes, it's more likely a monk, who doesn't have innate flight, nor any particular reason to 'want' to fly is going to fall off a ledge than out of the void.

So, reverse gravity isn't a thing, or deep and wide pit traps, or telekinesis? (Also, why the Monk wouldn't want to fly, given their generally terrible ranged options, I'm not sure.)


Story: What spell to pull out of ethereal? You can't target characters during time stop, so it would have to be anti-magic...which would defeat the purpose as no offensive magic could happen...??

That sounds like make manifest (forced manifestation? something like that), if memory serves, and it probably wasn't cast during time stop. Celerity, maybe.


Possible to have +CL (probable even) but it still provides a decent chance of making spells wasted. If I were the wizard I would probably invest in magic items to guarantee my spells landed. (i.e. Ring of Arcane Might; Robes of the Archmagi; possibly Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration and the appropriate ioun stone);

But not everyone spends their wealth that way, or comes across all those items in a campaign. So short of being perfectly tricked out, 30 SR is still pretty uncomfortable for a mage to deal with.

Or, of course, using the spells provided for the purpose: true casting or assay spell resistance. :smallwink:

But, OK. Spell Penetration and its Greater cousin are both reasonable feats for a Wizard to take*, since Monks are by no means the only enemies with SR they will face. Add a single +1 CL booster, from any of half a dozen sources, and the SR is down to a 20% chance to negate. Not trivial, but not terribly impressive. (1d20+25 >= 30 exactly 80% of the time.)

*Reasonable, as in "several good wizard handbooks consider this useful if you can't get access to assay spell resistance."

[Pickford]

Za? 3.0 material is specifically allowed in 3.5 unless it's been republished in 3.5 material, subject of course to minor changes.

That was the reason, I suspect, for mentioning two forcecages, one after the other.

Given that you gain the natural armor of the form, AC is more than likely to go way up, not down. And since Monks do not specialize in damaging touch attacks, this is a problem for them. (Grapple is obviously a bad idea with something several sizes larger.)

Well, the majority, anyway. Unfortunately, that only matters in cases where the remainder that don't allow saves are either suboptimal for some other reason, or the Wizard in question isn't bothering to use them.

Almost anything that's effective can be spammed, in short.

So, reverse gravity isn't a thing, or deep and wide pit traps, or telekinesis? (Also, why the Monk wouldn't want to fly, given their generally terrible ranged options, I'm not sure.)

That sounds like make manifest (forced manifestation? something like that), if memory serves, and it probably wasn't cast during time stop. Celerity, maybe.

Or, of course, using the spells provided for the purpose: true casting or assay spell resistance. :smallwink:

But, OK. Spell Penetration and its Greater cousin are both reasonable feats for a Wizard to take*, since Monks are by no means the only enemies with SR they will face. Add a single +1 CL booster, from any of half a dozen sources, and the SR is down to a 20% chance to negate. Not trivial, but not terribly impressive. (1d20+25 >= 30 exactly 80% of the time.)

*Reasonable, as in "several good wizard handbooks consider this useful if you can't get access to assay spell resistance."

My understanding on 3.0 is if it's not in 3.5, it's not in 3.5, but I went through and looked at if it worked anyway so who cares?

Right, then I'll meta-game that the monk went ethereal so the wizard just assumed they used dimension door. Then they 'really' used it and sneak attacked. Happy?

Good point if they've changed, the AC is 26, so it's a 50/50 to hit assuming 0 bonuses to hit.

Unfortunately nobody is really suggesting spells that ignore saves and sr, just the classic good ones that do allow them.

Of course they exist, they just aren't very consequential. For one thing if it's out in the open, dimension door, if it's indoors, reflex save to grab on and then tumble out. And for pit traps you can grab the ledge as you fall (and even if you miss that, there are walls so the monk can slow fall).

Using celerity to bring the monk out of ethereal doesn't seem like the wisest use of resources...not only does it do nothing to stop the monk from going ethereal immediately, but now the wizard is dazed (can't cast while dazed...or even do anything)...so the monk could easily walk up and tickle fight the wizard.

Right, and the problem is those spells take time to cast. Time the wizard doesn't really have to waste, any time spent not delaying or damaging the monk is a free round to close distance and pummel the mage.

edit: Plus the mage has to actually have spell slots to memorize these things, assay spell resistance.

[Gnorman]

Lastly...summon monster doesn't work like that, you have to be able to communicate with them to do anything (direct it not to attack, attack a particular enemy, or other undefined actions). That being said, most of the monsters on that list don't speak common. Also, as the casting time is 1 round, there's no time to direct the monster to do anything at all before the monk acts again (meaningeven if you 'can' communicate, no readied actions or direction would be allowed as it's not your turn anymore).

Three things.

1. If given no commands, a summoned monster attacks the nearest foe to the best of its ability. So you don't have to communicate with it for it to do anything. Just anything other than that. Plus, many of the summons on that list are quite intelligent, and would not need to be commanded to specifically ready an action - if they see a monk go ethereal, they could ready an action to attack it when it pops back on their own. That would certainly be to the best of their ability.

2. "Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)." The fiendish or celestial types automatically increase Intelligence to 3, so all celestial / fiendish creatures speak Common. Celestial covers most of your other bases, as for some reason both devils and demons automatically know Celestial. Even if not, picking up extra languages is trivial for a wizard.

3. Rapid Summoning ACF.

[Rejusu]

Since we're sort of on the topic, is there a way for a monk to deal with a wizard who has two Forcecages (and true seeing/see invisibility, I guess) prepared, without recourse to magic items?

Well if we take magic items out of the equation you don't even need more than one Forcecage prepared. Simply just cast it on yourself. Monk can't touch you inside. If he wants to get inside he has to use Abundant Step, if he does you simply dimension door out. And then laugh, and laugh, and laugh. Congratulations, you've just caught yourself a Monk.

If he chooses not to come into your castle? Why then you have 40 hours in which to prepare. Why not rest and prepare some new spells? Plus the cage only prevents the Monk attacking, the Wizard still has a number of offensive options at their disposal. And as mentioned, PLENTY of time. You won't ensure victory as the Monk can always run away, but you'll have eliminated all chance of defeat.

Also worth noting that you can guarantee they can't enter the forcecage by simply filling all other open squares within the cage with solid objects. Thanks to Abundant Step functioning like Dimension Door there's no way for them to get inside if you do this. If you try and DD to an occupied square then you take damage and are shunted to a random open square within 100ft.

Essentially if you take magic items out of the equation a Forcecage is an impenetrable fortress/unescapable trap to a Monk.

Pickford:

1) You're continually forgetting that Abundant Step is ONCE PER DAY. Bringing it up as the solution to every problem a Wizard might put in front of you doesn't work. Once you've used it, that's it until tomorrow. You'll have to rely on magic items for tactical teleportation from that point onwards. As noted in the above discussion about Forcecages, you can use Abundant step to bypass one of them. After that? It's no longer a solution, and you have to rely on magic items. And a Wizard isn't limited to one Forcecage a day.

2) When I say tactical teleportation I'm not referring to the spell Teleport, I'm referring to tactical movement around the battlefield via teleportation effects. Of which Dimension Door (and by extension Abundant Step) falls under. Oh yes, and Wizards can use Dimension Door too. Which is what I was referring to. And they can do it a number of times a day, and go 1.5x the distance you can. Dimension Door is actually one of the poorer forms of tactical teleportation for a melee class (it's more optimal for retreat, or for ferrying melee characters into the fray) too as you're allowed no actions after using it. As I said before, Monk abundant steps next to Wizard. Wizard dimension doors away giggling before the Monk can do anything. The Monks innate tactical teleportation is consumed, where as the wizard still probably has a few more prepared.

3) I've said this before and I've said this again: assuming the Wizard has no special senses, no permanent true sight, at level 20 is plain ridiculous. It's not an assumption worth entertaining and if you persist in using it in your arguments then we'll have to stop the discussion. It lends absolutely no weight to your arguments if you assume the Wizard is being played poorly and the Monk is being played optimally. In fact it completely undermines them. A level 20 Wizard will be able to see a level 20 ethereal Monk, it's pointless to assume that going ethereal will allow the Monk to approach the Wizard unawares.

4) Regarding flight, it's kind of silly to say the Monk has no reason to want to fly when a huge chunk of monsters can do it. If faced with a flying enemy are you just going to sit on the ground and twiddle your thumbs? A bow might help well enough at lower levels, but at higher levels it's not going to cut it for a melee focused build. What happens if the Wizard is flying? Which considering it's a third level spell, is quite likely. Put simply most battles involving flying enemies will take place in the sky, where there's no convenient walls to slowfall off.

5) Magical Fortress is the key word here. Did I say physical defences? No, we're talking things like walls of force, prismatic spheres, layers of magical defences that going ethereal can't simply bypass. Those are the spells where we're getting the fortress from. It's not a literal castle, it's far harder to penetrate than one. You also missed another keyword there: celestial, which makes them outsiders. And if you want to nitpick, it's not like there aren't plenty of other nasty creatures which you can bring in through the use of Gate. Also I wasn't the one bringing up Chaos Maw. My first picks for 9th level spells would be Time Stop, Gate and Wish. Of course we don't even need spell slots for all of those since we can just buy some of them with our WBL. And at any rate a 20th level Wizard should have a minimum of 5 9th level spell slots which is enough for a Time Stop, a Wish, Gate, a disjunction and whatever else.

6) Considering that UMD isn't a class skill for the Monk, nor are Cha or Int particularly important stats for them then unless they've specifically aimed to do so the likelihood is they're not going to be using any scrolls. At the very least they're probably not going to have a 100% of activating the scroll, and failure is a wasted action.

7) No, that's exactly how crafting scrolls works:


CREATING SCROLLS
To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster.
All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.
Item Creation Feat Required: Scribe Scroll.

Emphesis mine. For each day of crafting you'd have to pay for the services of a spellcaster casting an X level spell (where X is the level of the spell used to craft the item).

And actually looking over it again I realised that you in fact cannot do what you proposed (pay the XP cost yourself and use a caster to provide the necessary spell effect) due to the following:



• Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
• Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.
Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).
When two spells at the end of a list are separated by “or,” one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

Emphesis mine.

Note that caster level is determined by the creator, and that only the character designated as the creator can pay the XP cost. Since as a Monk you have no caster level, you cannot be designated as the creator. When you suggested this I was sure crafting was limited to casters only, but now I'm certain.

8) Regarding your comment directed at Story: who says the Wizard has to pull the Monk out of the ethereal plane during time stop?

9) Regarding your comment directed at Karnith: Yes it's one more way than most (although I may not go so far as most) classes have. But at the same time it's a lot less than what other classes have, available at a much later level. In addition it's very unsuitable for the class. Because WotC were lazy and just stated it functioned like an existing spell it really cripples its effectiveness for Monks. Standard action activation and no actions after that until your next round? Yes you can use it to close the distance to a target, but if they have tactical teleportation as well they can simply be gone before you even get a chance to attack. Since you're limited to one use per day you're stumped at that point. Either way the fact you can't do anything after using it just puts you at a massive disadvantage. If you use it to close the distance with a caster they can just blink away, if you close the distance on a melee character then you've just given them a free round to wail on you.

You say that most everyone has to expend either magic or magic items to bypass a force cage. And yet... so what? Magic is plentiful, and magic items is what WBL exists for. You're forgetting that other classes get class features as well. And a lot of them are generally a lot better than what the Monk gets. It doesn't matter that they need a magic item to make up for their lack of innate tactical teleportation, Monks need plenty to make up for what they lack. Including tactical teleportation. Since as I've mentioned a few times now Abundant Step is a painfully limited once-per-day wonder.

10) For I think the third time now, the best way to settle this is with a duel. Seeing is believing after all.

[Spuddles]

Wait, how is a level 20 monk getting close to an incorporeal, invisible, veiled, mind blanked, mindsighted, foresighted, shapechanged, flying opponent with anticipate teleport up?

And once he finds said opponent, how is he going to move in without alerting him? And once the makes his presence known, how does he continue chasing/targeting his opponent when all his gear is hit with a chained extended greater dispel magic?

[Karnith]

My understanding on 3.0 is if it's not in 3.5, it's not in 3.5, but I went through and looked at if it worked anyway so who cares
Actually, Maw of Chaos is 3.5. It was updated in the Spell Compendium (I didn't know that it was originally from 3.0 until you mentioned it). Now it deals 1d6 damage per caster level (uncapped) to all creatures in the area with no save, and creatures in the area need to make a Will save or be dazed. Also, anyone casting spells in the area needs to make a higher concentration check than usual, but that's small potatoes compared to the other stuff.

Also, on 3.0 stuff: the DMG on page 4 says that "the revision is compatible with existing products, and these products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments." 3.0 stuff is generally considered legal, so long as it hasn't been updated to 3.5 (in which case the 3.5 content takes precedence).

Given that you gain the natural armor of the form, AC is more than likely to go way up, not down. And since Monks do not specialize in damaging touch attacks, this is a problem for them. (Grapple is obviously a bad idea with something several sizes larger.)
In fact, one of the most fun ways to use Shapechange is to take your stuff off in the morning, shapechange into something with great stats that has the Change Shape ability, Change Shape back into your normal form, and then put all of your stuff back on. You get amazing base stats and you keep all of your abilities from your gear. In Core, this generally means that you get Solar or Titan stats all day long.

But, OK. Spell Penetration and its Greater cousin are both reasonable feats for a Wizard to take*, since Monks are by no means the only enemies with SR they will face. Add a single +1 CL booster, from any of half a dozen sources, and the SR is down to a 20% chance to negate. Not trivial, but not terribly impressive. (1d20+25 >= 30 exactly 80% of the time.)

*Reasonable, as in "several good wizard handbooks consider this useful if you can't get access to [I]assay spell resistance."
When you diss Spell Penetration like that, you're making my core-only wizard cry.

[Story]

You would be right about the feat, except you can't take 10: When you're threatened or distracted (combat is specified).


It was errata'd to work in combat. Which makes sense as it'd be almost completely useless otherwise.



only the character designated as the creator can pay the XP cost.

That was how it worked originally, but WOTC created several ways to transfer XP costs. XP is basically just another commodity now.

[shaikujin]

Note that caster level is determined by the creator, and that only the character designated as the creator can pay the XP cost. Since as a Monk you have no caster level, you cannot be designated as the creator. When you suggested this I was sure crafting was limited to casters only, but now I'm certain.


To add on to what Story said, here's a few ways that XP cost can be transferred:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Nice in it's own way actually. Balances things out a bit. Though spell casters still have access to a lot of buff spells (+stat, +AC, +5 enhancement attack bonus etc) they can cast for free, as opposed to having to spend 50k for it.

Of course, now that everyone in the party can supply their own XP, it's a lot more difficult to take advantage of the XP is a river concept...

[Rejusu]

To add on to what Story said, here's a few ways that XP cost can be transferred:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Nice in it's own way actually. Balances things out a bit. Though spell casters still have access to a lot of buff spells (+stat, +AC, +5 enhancement attack bonus etc) they can cast for free, as opposed to having to spend 50k for it.

Of course, now that everyone in the party can supply their own XP, it's a lot more difficult take advantage of the XP is a river concept...

Well you learn something every day. However still worse than caster crafting as per the following:


If you are commissioning a magic item for which you are willing to transfer the XP cost, a discount of 5 gp per 1 XP is subtracted from the final market price.

This translates to a 20% discount rather than the 50% casters get.

[shaikujin]

shaikujin: There are actually something like 2000 spells if you include more than core. But the wizard still has ~4-6 choices per level. So 1/10th of the total number of spells and the wizard has to pick 'just' those at any given level. (yes yes alacritous cogitation, but that's just ~4-11 spells, maybe) I'm not suggesting wizards aren't versatile, but they are over-rated. And the save DCs don't scale with level, they only scale with casting attribute which doesn't scale well at all. As for fixed abilities: Slow fall caps out at any distance...so that's not bad. Still mind is +2 save, that's worth 4 primary casting stat (i.e. 4/5 attribute increases to the primary stat)


I agree that some people are really overrating wizards, just like the monk is being underrated.

Spell casters are extremely versatile, but as can be seen in some of the examples given so far, when a certain option like an ACF for example is taken, other choices would be limited.

As for spells with DCs, it's not just spells, most abilities including spells and class abilities that allows a save DC don't scale well at high levels.

As characters gain levels, casters can simply replace obsolete spells like sleep in their first level spells slots with spells that scale with CL.

But static class abilities like stunning fist that becomes obsolete as you face higher level monsters cannot be swapped out as freely.

Still mind gives a +2 bonus to only spells/effects from the school of enchantment, a school that is the first to be given up when making a specialist wizard. While it's still a nice bonus at low levels against NPCs, it's not worth as much as a +4 to a stat or a +2 to a save which provide other benefits.

Even if it's a +2 to a save, an item that gives +2 bonus to a save is worth 2k (16k if you have some reason to pack on a prior +3 bonus against a single school). At high levels, unless you can't get access to an item that grants immunity to mind affecting effects, it's becomes obsolete too.

Non casters really got the short end of the stick when Wizard designed some of the class features.

A combat oriented class like the fighter with full BAB and d10 HD gets a bonus feat every other level.

The monk is also a combat oriented class (not skill/sneak/subterfuge oriented like the rouge, or a spell caster like cleric/druid). With the reduction to 2/3 BAB and d8 HD, they should at least get something close to a bonus feat every level.

[ArcturusV]

Well... Pickford's quoted text above fails to account for two things:

1, he's only counting spells that they gain as they level. Wizards also can transcribe spells from scrolls, other spellbooks, etc. Realistically this means that they typically double, at the very least, their spell selection in the game by doing this. Wizards have a benefit with WBL as mentioned, crafting, the need not to stockpile on a ton of different magical items, that makes blowing wealth on scrolls just to transcribe quite feasible and logical.

2, Wizards also get a blank check to do whatever the hell they want due to spell research. This can be gaining a spell that already exists, or making up a new one whole cloth. With spell research even if your DM is kinda being a pain in the ass with a lack of Spellbook Loot, Scroll Loot, or Scrolls you can buy, you can still fill out your spellbook with all the spells that you actually want. Not even counting the flexibility of just making up new spells.

I am aware that not everyone necessarily uses Spell Research. At the very least it shouldn't be relevant to the discussion to presuming the wizard has researched a spell which is entirely new. But it does mean you can presume that, if it's printed somewhere, that a wizard can reasonably obtain it, and is not at all limited to the "Just" a couple of spells per level as they gain levels.

[Story]

Spell Research is even more subject to DM Fiat then normal, so it won't help if your DM is deliberately restricting spell access, though they may be willing to have you go on quests to learn specific spells.

[ArcturusV]

True. But I was calling out a lack of appropriate loot/stores in particular because sometimes that's a setting thing or a DM oversight rather than purposeful DM Screw. I've had DMs where it just never occurred to them to add Magical Scrolls to loot hordes. Or the few times they were mentioned as part of a loot horde had the enemy NPCs using the scrolls themselves so I never got a hold of it, never used enemy wizards so I never got spellbooks to copy, etc.

Or sometimes it's a DM world building thing where they want less of "Magic = Commonplace Science" feel so no Magic Marts, no easily accessable magic. But you can still learn additional magic, it just needs to be personal.

I've run into both cases, but in both cases the DMs were also perfectly willing to let me research as needed.

[shaikujin]

Well you learn something every day. However still worse than caster crafting as per the following:



This translates to a 20% discount rather than the 50% casters get.


Ah, but now the party's resident Warforge Psionic Artificer who doesn't sleep is much more willing to help you make that +5 spiked chain at cost, since it doesn't eat into his own XP pool.

Of course, you can still pay the Artificer the standard market rate of 5 GP per point of craft reserve XP he spent on it if that's his thing.



Alternatively, there's the ancestral relic feat which I love.

"You spent full market price on that sparring dummy of the master?"
"Already finished and no longer need it?"
Ok, sacrifice it to your ancestors, gain the full amount as enchantments on your relic.

"Oh, you looted a ton of magic weapons you can't use and no one in the party wants them?"
"Selling it on the open market is only half price?"
No problem! Buy everything your party doesn't want at the normal 1/2 price, sacrifice it all!

"Oh look...an adamantine door blocking the party's entrance to the dungeon..."

With that feat, for 1 single item (whichever will likely be the most expensive piece of gear, like primary weapon or maybe bracers of armor), you basically gain magic item crafting without need of any prerequisites, no DC checks, get it at half price etc.

Depending on how you look at it, if 50% of the treasure you acquire normally needs to be sold at half price, you are getting only 75% of the treasure's worth. Being able to sacrifice items at full price, would mean you are getting back that 25%.



Or to take things into your own hands, start crafting batches of mundane items, or even weapons like shurikens, made out of gold. Each of these shurikens have a market price of 30 gp (1+1500/50). Materials costs 1/3, which is 10 gp.

Sacrifice it. So cost reduction increases to 2/3 instead of 1/2.

[Story]

Crafting is already easy money.

According to my calculations, a level 5 Wizard with 22 int and no ranks in crafting can earn about 200gp profit per week running a weapons factory with Unseen Crafter. And profit scales quadratically both with level and craft bonus.

Admittedly, it's still a lot less than you can earn going by DMG standard 4 encounters a day with WBL.

[shaikujin]

Well... Pickford's quoted text above fails to account for two things:

1, he's only counting spells that they gain as they level. Wizards also can transcribe spells from scrolls, other spellbooks, etc. Realistically this means that they typically double, at the very least, their spell selection in the game by doing this. Wizards have a benefit with WBL as mentioned, crafting, the need not to stockpile on a ton of different magical items, that makes blowing wealth on scrolls just to transcribe quite feasible and logical.

2, Wizards also get a blank check to do whatever the hell they want due to spell research. This can be gaining a spell that already exists, or making up a new one whole cloth. With spell research even if your DM is kinda being a pain in the ass with a lack of Spellbook Loot, Scroll Loot, or Scrolls you can buy, you can still fill out your spellbook with all the spells that you actually want. Not even counting the flexibility of just making up new spells.

I am aware that not everyone necessarily uses Spell Research. At the very least it shouldn't be relevant to the discussion to presuming the wizard has researched a spell which is entirely new. But it does mean you can presume that, if it's printed somewhere, that a wizard can reasonably obtain it, and is not at all limited to the "Just" a couple of spells per level as they gain levels.

Actually, I think in this case, he was talking about daily spell slots.

I was too, but I probably didn't put it across well, because I didn't bring up the number of spells known by default. So I'll rephrase:



There are around 40 spells in each spell level that a wizard can learn.

Without spending any further resources, a level 3 Specialist Wizard with 18 Int knows around 30 different spells:
Level 0 = 15 (deducted some to provision for banned schools)
Level 1 = 9
Level 2 = 6

Of those 30 known spells, everyday, he has 11 spell slots to prepare spells in:
Level 0 = 4
Level 1 = 4
Level 2 = 3

That's a lot of versatility.

[Pickford]

Three things.

1. If given no commands, a summoned monster attacks the nearest foe to the best of its ability. So you don't have to communicate with it for it to do anything. Just anything other than that. Plus, many of the summons on that list are quite intelligent, and would not need to be commanded to specifically ready an action - if they see a monk go ethereal, they could ready an action to attack it when it pops back on their own. That would certainly be to the best of their ability.

2. "Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)." The fiendish or celestial types automatically increase Intelligence to 3, so all celestial / fiendish creatures speak Common. Celestial covers most of your other bases, as for some reason both devils and demons automatically know Celestial. Even if not, picking up extra languages is trivial for a wizard.

3. Rapid Summoning ACF.

Right, I was arguing the summons won't be doing complex things without the order, which can't be given (for example: Cast this spell or ready an action, further, if the target has disappeared any readied action would require you to target a particular square).

Didn't take rapid summoning. Maybe that wizard would stand a better chance under some circumstances, but not others. Schroedingers wizard isn't being tested here.

Rejusu: Why wouldn't the monk just throw shuriken at you with poison on them? You suffer various poison effects including instant death. And if it's the forcecage without windows...The monk can just hide behind a tree and play the waiting game. If this were being scored it's either a draw or the monk wins (the wizard withdrew)

Of course it's 1/day, I wouldn't use it frivolously (i.e. just to close distance, the monk's 90' single move action does that quite well). For the monk it better serves as a get out of jail free card, not an offensive action.

And if the wizard 'does' have permancied things they would be behind the base xp at 20, and thus not 20 but 19. So no, the default assumption from a freshly drawn level 20 character is that they have 'nothing' that requires xp to get. If you choose that route you have less than the minimum xp required for 20. We're not making them two hypotehtical 20+ characters, but two characters drawn at the cusp of 20.

Regarding flying creatures...yes, ignore them or go sit under a tree with full cover/concealment until they decide to come down and play. Fly isn't bad, but it's hardly a necessity and, as you pointed out, a huge mistake when facing someone who can potentially cast dispel magic. Of course, if your mage had already burned their level 3 slots or was clearly not an abjurer, then I might consider taking to flight.

It's unclear to me what you're doing to achieve more than 5 spells in a time stop. (fortresses have 4 walls and a roof + 2 gold wyrms = at least 6 spells). And since you can't maximize a time stop (it's already 9th level)...the example exceeds limits. As for Gate...you have to have the xp to cast it. I suppose if you've agreed to be dropped to 19th level by making yourself something requiring xp that makes sense, but then you only have three level 9 spells (time stop + 2 gates?) which means no chaos maw (yes I know you didn't bring it up, but it was brought up and addressed). You could purchase those 9th level scrolls, sure. But standard leveling gives you only 2 known spells of the 9th level. (Plus you have to have several blessed books to carry all the spells wanted).

Hrm, the point I was making is that when creating a scroll of wish you don't need to cast wish multiple times. Hrm, I believe there was an argument in another thread on the ability of characters (who lack CL) to contribute to the creation of wondrous items. (Ah, thank you Story)

Re story and ethereal: Well, if it's not done during time stop it doesn't happen because the monk would drop it themselves on their turn.

Re Karnith/Abundant: That's why it's not a tacticaly move, it's an escape mechanism. You go with the abilities you have, not the abilities you wish you had.

And a single instance would only be anecdotal and without actual predictive power. The tier partisans wouldn't change their tune even if the monk won initiative and grapples the wizard to death.

To Spuddles: It's round one, the wizard has cast 0 spells and so is none of those things. Way to step up with Schroedinger's wizard though. Also: You can't use extend spell on greater dispel magic, it's instantaneous. And chain spelling it would take a 9th level spell slot...and be useless as this is a one on one fight. So the monk just carries on as normal since it didn't do anything but waste the wizard's action.

Karnith: Except when Shapechange expires in 3 hrs 20 minutes you lose the other effects gained through it. I missed the one in spell compendium, when I googled it was just listed as 3.0 (cracked my copy open now that you mentioned it)

Story: Aha! I didn't look up the errata, still, it's a feat :smallwink:

Shaikujin: Stunning fist DC scales with class level and wisdom so it's base DC at 20 is 20 + wis (which presumably will be somewhere between +1 and +11)...31 DC fort saves? Not easy to resist.

ArcturusV: That does require coming across another wizard, which isn't certain, and that they let you copy from their spellbooks (unlikely), and as mentioned before, if you use xp to craft...you're lower level. (especially when we're making a hypothetical character at level 20), it's not entirely a blank check for researching spells, there are limits given in the DMG. I'm not saying the wizard can't research it, but if we're talking about ready-made, they haven't unless resources get invested. (i.e. money/time and/or xp)

Edit: Shaikujin you've reminded me...wealth is a river too. Any monk with sufficient ranks in craft can make absurdly valuable items, and then trade them, achieving virtually any magic item they like (just get to sigil, it's all available there). So while the wizard is blowing their xp, the monk is...disturbingly, infinitely wealthy and keeps their xp. I was just setting reasonable limits.

[Story]

The tier partisans wouldn't change their tune even if the monk won initiative and grapples the wizard to death.


That's because any situation in which that's even theoretically possible is obviously contrived beyond all reason.

Even a Monk that rolls all natural 20s isn't a threat. Wizards stopped caring about grappling back at level 7 (Heart of Water is available at level 5, but they're unlikely to have it up 24/7 until higher levels).

[Augmental]

And if it's the forcecage without windows...The monk can just hide behind a tree and play the waiting game.

If you're calling Schrodinger's Wizard, I'm calling Schrodinger's Terrain.


Of course it's 1/day, I wouldn't use it frivolously (i.e. just to close distance, the monk's 90' single move action does that quite well). For the monk it better serves as a get out of jail free card, not an offensive action.

And then the wizard puts you back in jail, because he has multiple spell slots to put you in jail with.


And if the wizard 'does' have permancied things they would be behind the base xp at 20, and thus not 20 but 19. So no, the default assumption from a freshly drawn level 20 character is that they have 'nothing' that requires xp to get. If you choose that route you have less than the minimum xp required for 20. We're not making them two hypotehtical 20+ characters, but two characters drawn at the cusp of 20.

There are items of true seeing, the wizard doesn't have to Permanancy the spell. (Although he really should, if only to free up an item slot.)


Regarding flying creatures...yes, ignore them or go sit under a tree with full cover/concealment until they decide to come down and play.

The wizard can just set your tree on fire.

[Pickford]

That's because any situation in which that's even theoretically possible is obviously contrived beyond all reason.

Even a Monk that rolls all natural 20s isn't a threat. Wizards stopped caring about grappling back at level 7 (Heart of Water is available at level 5, but they're unlikely to have it up 24/7 until higher levels).

That's a swift action, (and you're assuming it was already cast, just another reason to attack a wizard in their sleep or near the end of the day) and would end the spell. So you could use it on your turn...

Edit: Augmental: Web was discussed earlier, the only way to use it is if there are opposite surfaces (floor/ceiling...meaning we're in a room with exits; or trees..meaning there are trees).

The wizard has to 'see' you to cast it. Needless to say the appropriate use would be to circumvent this.

And the monk can pick up several sets of boots of teleportation, 2 would be sufficient. After burning three charges (while in say, the 4th hypothetical cage) swap them at your leisure, then use it again. As I said earlier, magic items seriously favor those who don't use magic.

Ok? The tree is on fire...and still providing total concealment/cover.

[Story]

By level 12 the Wizard can have Heart of Water up 24/7. Not that it really matters, since other defenses are more important.

For instance, you'll never be able to go first (Foresight+Celerity) or to even reach a high level Wizard (Overland Flight, Astral Projection, etc.).

[Pickford]

By level 12 the Wizard can have Heart of Water up 24/7. Not that it really matters, since other defenses are more important.

For instance, you'll never be able to go first (Foresight+Celerity) or to even reach a high level Wizard (Overland Flight, Astral Projection, etc.).

That's the 6th or 7th(?) 9th level spell mentioned (3xMaw of Chaos, Time Stop, 2xGate, Astral Projection...I'd like it if we could stick to the actual limits as opposed to swapping out the 9th level spells picked for any given day at will.

Foresight doesn't make you go first, it just stops you from being flatfooted be forewarned of what's coming...awesome if you picked up IotSV really.

Wizard has to land and fight sometime, they can't hide in the sky and sleep.

[Eldariel]

That's the 6th or 7th(?) 9th level spell mentioned (3xMaw of Chaos, Time Stop, 2xGate, Astral Projection...I'd like it if we could stick to the actual limits as opposed to swapping out the 9th level spells picked for any given day at will.

Foresight doesn't make you go first, it just stops you from being flatfooted be forewarned of what's coming...awesome if you picked up IotSV really.

Wizard has to land and fight sometime, they can't hide in the sky and sleep.

Eh. Rope Trick & Magnificent Mansion enable sleeping in extraplanar locations even when adventuring; Extended Rope Trick has sufficient duration on Character Level 5. Teleportation makes traveling quite easy. Scrying even enables knowing pretty much exactly everything about everything you need. Contact Other Plane and such enable researching your objective without a worry from demiplanes or whatever too.

Foresight enables casting Celerity [PHBII] as an immediate action before initiative which enables taking a standard action as an immediate action (Dazes you for the next turn but you can be immune to Daze á la Favor of the Martyr, spend your Daze in Time Stop cast during the Standard Action or whatever; hell, TP away or destroy your target with the standard action and the Daze doesn't rightly matter).


Really, Wizard's strategic level powers - locating enemies, moving around, resting and moving safely and such - are unparalleled by lower tier classes. These powers are often not showcased in these forum mock-up fights since duels are specifically made to negate them so as to allow the opposing party to actually showcase their combat prowess but a Wizard only needs to fight if they choose to, and only on their terms, unless the opponent commands a similar level of power. It's absolutely never a fair fight between a Wizard and a non-Wizard in an actual campaign if 5th level spells are in (even before then, flight and invisibility are quite the encounter-negating powers in many cases).

I'm not sure how your DMs/you as a DM run enemy casters but if you've ever run an organization with spellcasters, you could see it in practice; lower tier PC parties tend to be royally ****ed against intelligent opponents.

[Augmental]

Ok? The tree is on fire...and still providing total concealment/cover.

I meant burning the tree into a pile of ashes which can't provide concealment.

Because I haven't seen it mentioned yet: Dimensional Anchor. No saving throw, prevents the monk from teleporting or going ethereal. It's "blocked" by SR, but Assay Spell Resistance gets around that.

[Pickford]

I meant burning the tree into a pile of ashes which can't provide concealment.

Because I haven't seen it mentioned yet: Dimensional Anchor. No saving throw, prevents the monk from teleporting or going ethereal. It's "blocked" by SR, but Assay Spell Resistance gets around that.

And true strike if you want to beat the monk's touch AC (something on the order of 30)

Edit: Favor of the Martyr the Paladin level 4 spell? Did you want to add another slot for limited wish/wish then? (And of course extra rounds before combat for all the buffing?)

[Karnith]

And if the wizard 'does' have permancied things they would be behind the base xp at 20, and thus not 20 but 19.
Surprisingly, scrolls of permanency are pretty cheap, at 10,125 gp, usable to permanency things that cost up to 2,000 exp. That rules out a lot of nice things, but it does get you, for example, permanent See Invisibility.

Re Karnith/Abundant:
Pretty sure that this is mis-addressed, which is totally understandable given how many people are hanging out in this thread.

Karnith: Except when Shapechange expires in 3 hrs 20 minutes you lose the other effects gained through it. I missed the one in spell compendium, when I googled it was just listed as 3.0 (cracked my copy open now that you mentioned it)
I don't know about other people, but I typically use greater metamagic rods of extend. Outside Core, Incantatrix shenanigans and sudden extend would also work.

Also, Schrodinger's wizard is getting thrown a lot in this thread. I have the stats for a 20th-level core-only wizard build kicking around on my computer. I never got to use him for the campaign that he was intended for, but he's medium-op and with a little adjustment I think he'd provide a pretty good example for the thread of a typical 20th-level wizard. Would it be helpful to post the stats?

[Augmental]

And true strike if you want to beat the monk's touch AC (something on the order of 30)

True Strike is only a level 1 spell; low enough to be quickened.

[Pickford]

True Strike is only a level 1 spell; low enough to be quickened.

Problems: That's now a 4th level spell, and it's a swift action (which you already burned on celerity)...so...

Karnith: I guess it just makes good sense to invest in a bunch of rods then:

Rod of Absorption (nullifies things like dimensional anchor)
Rod of Cancellation (good for escaping those pesky many hour traps)

Things don't get better for the wizard the more items get introduced.

[Karnith]

Things don't get better for the wizard the more items get introduced.
Erm, between pearls of power, rings of wizardry, metamagic rods, blessed books, scrolls, staves, wands, and the like (and that's just in core), I would say that they do. Magic items benefit some classes more than others, especially those without their own magic, but it's not like wizards get weaker once magic items are introduced.

EDIT: Unless, of course, we're talking about WBL-mancy making everyone into pseudo-casters.

[Pickford]

Erm, between pearls of power, rings of wizardry, metamagic rods, blessed books, scrolls, staves, wands, and the like (and that's just in core), I would say that they do. Magic items benefit some classes more than others, especially those without their own magic, but it's not like wizards get weaker once magic items are introduced.

EDIT: Unless, of course, we're talking about WBL-mancy making everyone into pseudo-casters.

Pearls of power just grant a second chance to do something that generally didn't work the first time (and result in the waste of a turn), blessed books don't pertain to combat (unless of course someone steals your stuff, depriving you of a book), staves, wands and rods are nice...but they don't deal with the problem of magic items allowing the mundanes to shrug off spells.

[Augmental]

Things don't get better for the wizard the more items get introduced.

They don't get much better for the monk either, since other classes can use those items just as well as the monk.

[Pickford]

They don't get much better for the monk either, since other classes can use those items just as well as the monk.

Yeah, but monks don't cast spells. Most of the devastating magic items involve neutralizing magic which disproportionately impacts the classes that rely almost exclusively on magic to do anything at all.

[mattie_p]

Yeah, but monks don't cast spells. Most of the devastating magic items involve neutralizing magic which disproportionately impacts the classes that rely almost exclusively on magic to do anything at all.

That might work, but show me a no save, no SR single use magic item that casts an AMF on the target.

[Augmental]

Yeah, but monks don't cast spells. Most of the devastating magic items involve neutralizing magic which disproportionately impacts the classes that rely almost exclusively on magic to do anything at all.

And what do monks have that lets them use these items more effectively than, say, a fighter?

[Eldariel]

Rod of Absorption (nullifies things like dimensional anchor)
Rod of Cancellation (good for escaping those pesky many hour traps)

Those aren't really sustainable. For a single engagement, sure, but over a campaign e.g. Rod of Cancellations are 11000gp a piece (vs. the best-case-scenario of Forcecage that was 1500gp; most spells you'd negate are free) so not sustainable and in any case, you're trading a standard action for a standard action so you can't threaten the caster anyways with your remaining actions.

Rod of Absorption is good but easy to detect with Arcane Sight (it and Cancellation are the only Strong Abjuration Rods in existence), 50000gp, can be disabled with targeted Greater Dispel Magic if necessary and doesn't affect e.g. Dimensional Lock/Forcecage anyways. And again, in a campaign it'll get drained and then it'll be done. 50k is a lot; you can't use it constantly. On the levels where it'd truly screw a Wizard over (pre-15), it's not affordable in the least. Even on level 20, it's a significant investment.


You can theorycraft all you want but it's more than apparent that you don't have the actual play experience to back it up. My Elf Fighter/Wizard had two Rod of Cancellation just to deal with the Wizard that had been haunting me for a long time. Boots of Teleportation too. When it came to engagement? Why, said Wizard watched me burn Rod of Cancellation to escape entrapment and Teleported away. I have no way to follow him. We fought again next day. And the day after. I didn't have a Rod of Cancellation left the third time and died to Cloudkill (yes, it was the old Cloudkill Cage; I wasn't prepared for it specifically since he'd never used it before and I was young and naive).

Yes, I could've prepared for it. But it's only one thing and I'm spending like 100000 gold to counter one thing he could be doing that costs him nothing. What am I gonna do vs. Planar Bound creatures? Well, I better be able to fight them. Can't skimp on my normal combat attributes. What am I gonna do about save-or-die spam from a distance? My saves better be rock solid. How am I actually gonna harm him?

Well, I need to penetrate his invulnerability, find him, TP to him and stop him from casting spells and land the lethal shot without his Contingency whisking him to safety. It's a lot of gold to invest again. I'm gonna run out of money really fast, while the Wizard is merely augmenting his casting with Metamagic Rods, Pearls of Power, Blessed Book and some token utility/defensive items that make him momentarily invincible (there is, for instance, the Scarab of Invulnerability). All in all, while warriors cover bare essentials with gold, Wizards expand their already fearsome arsenal enabling them to cast more, faster and more potent.

You can take this from experience. I've played "noob" games where people learned over time; everybody started naively with Fighters and Clerics and Wizards and Rogues and we played from level 1 to level 17 and around level 13, even the bad-but-learning Wizard and Cleric were basically doing everything except when we were specifically given the limelight and this is with the lion's share of the party gold going to the martial types.


Guess what disabling magic also does. Disables magic items. Guess what Monks rely on for flight, magic protection, teleportation, and so on? And guess which classes get the ability to, for no cost, disable magic items for a time? You can imagine what happens to a flying Monk when his Boots of Flying get Dispelled midair.

[Story]

Don't forget that item CLs are atrocious, so the Wizard can dispel the Monk but not vice versa.

[Barsoom]

Frankly, the tipping point where things start getting really bad for a mage is ~13th level.Yo dawg, I herd u liek Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm).

[Spuddles]

This is preposterous. A monk has zero chance against a moderatel optimized level 20 wizard.

High level wizards only adventure for as long as their buffs last. They put buffs up, leave the safety of their lair (which is extradimensional and warded) via a greater teleport, do their deeds, then greater teleport back.

You can get all the greater teleports you want by taking the form of an archon with archon form or whatever (BoED). Archon type has greater teleport a will.

Even in an arena fight, where somehow the wizard has no buffs and is stupidly standing very close to what amounts to a commoner with a very carefully spent 760k, a wizard still goes first (celerity), casts maximized time stop, buffs, then when time stop ends, blankets the monk in disjunctions. The monk never gets to go thanks to celerity and 3 back to back maximized time stops. Pearls of power recover the spells the wizard needs.

Once the wizard has destroyed all the monks items that let him pretend to be a wizard, the wizard can simply take ten on killing the monk however he likes.

Oh and hey, if the monk is throwing 100k at the fight in consumables, the wizard yawns, casts a couple gates, and brings two ethergaunts, or solars, or pitfiends, or balors to play. Good luck little guy!

[Karnith]

So, I re-furbished an old character that I never got to use to give an idea of what a moderately-optimized, level 20, core-only wizard is like. For reference of the thread, meet Chip Bosworth IV:
Llewellyn P. “Chip” Bosworth IV, Esquire, Senior Deputy Underclerk in the Department of Heavenly Claims
Male Human Diviner 17/Archmage 3
Medium Humanoid (Human)
HD: 20d4 + 40 (91 hp) (20d4 + 100 (151 hp))
Initiative: +8
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 14 (10 + 4 Dex)
BAB/Grapple: +9/+7
Attack: +7 touch attack (spells), +12 ranged touch attack (spells), + 7 Quarterstaff (1d6-2)
Full Attack: +7/+2 Quarterstaff (1d6-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./ 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: High arcana, permanent see invisibility, summon familiar
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +19
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 35, Wis 9, Cha 9
Skills: Cocentration + 31, Knowledge (Arcana) +35, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +35, Knowledge (Nature) +35, Knowledge (the Planes) +35, Knowledge (Religion) +35, Listen +6 Spellcraft +35, Spot +6
Feats: Empower Spell, Extend SpellB, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Maximize SpellB, Quicken SpellB, Scribe ScrollB, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
(Note: Stats above are pre-buffs)

Post-buffs: Shapechanged in Solar, change shaped back into normal form, plus some other stuff
Medium Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
HD: 20d4 + 100 (151 hp) (20d4 + 160 (211 hp))
Initiative: +12
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Fly 40 ft. (average)
AC: 45 (10 +8 Dex +21 natural armor +2 insight +4 Mage Armor)
BAB/Grapple: +9/+18
Attack: +23 +5 quarterstaff (1d6 + 18), +18 touch (spells), +17 ranged touch attack (spells)
Full Attack: +23/+18 +5 quarterstaff (1d6 + 18)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./ 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Change shape, damage reduction 15/epic and evil, darkvision 60 ft., detect scrying, evasion, foresight, high arcana, low-light vision, immunity to acid, cold, and petrification, mind blank, moment of prescience, protective aura, regeneration 15, resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10, see invisibility, spell resistance 32, summon familiar tongues
Saves: Fort +21 (+25 against poison) (+6 base +8 Con +5 resistance +2 Great Fortitude), Ref +21 (+6 base +8 Dex +5 resistance +2 insight), Will +19 (+13 base -1 Wis + 5 resistance + 2 Iron Will)
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 26, Con 26, Int 35, Wis 9, Cha 9
Skills: Cocentration + 31, Knowledge (Arcana) +35, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +35, Knowledge (Nature) +35, Knowledge (the Planes) +35, Knowledge (Religion) +35, Listen +6 Spellcraft +35, Spot +6
Feats: Empower Spell, Extend SpellB, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Maximize SpellB, Quicken SpellB, Scribe ScrollB, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Focus (Abjuration), Spell Penetration
Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Spells active: Metamgic-rod-extended Shapechange, Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon (quarterstaff), Mind Blank, permanent See Invisibility, Metamagic-rod-extended Foresight, Detect Scrying

Equipment: Handy Haversack (2,000), Headband of Intellect +6 (36,000), Tome of Clear Thought +5 (used, 137,500), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000), Amulet of Health +6 (36,000), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000), Boccob’s Blessed Book (528 pages filled, 12,500), Orange Ioun Stone (30,000), Ring of Evasion (25,000), Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000), Pearl of Power (8th-level, 64,000), Pearl of Power (9th-level, 81,000), Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend (24,000), Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize (121,500), Quarterstaff (0), Spell Component Pouch (x3, 45), Shapechange focus (1,500), Contingency focus (1,500), Legend Lore foci (200), Magic Jar focus (100), Scrying focus (1,000), Astral Projection material component (x2, 2,000), Forcecage material component (x4, 6,000), Magnificent Mansion material component (x5, 50), True Seeing material component (x4, 1000), Legend Lore material component (x2, 500), Wall of Iron material component (x4, 200), Stoneskin material component (x2, 500), Nondetection Material Component (x4, 200) Access to spells for scribing (12,300)
WBL at 20: 760,000
Total Gold spent: 707,720
Gold remaining: 52,280

Change Shape (Su): Chip can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.
High Arcana:
Arcane Reach (Su): Chip can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. Chip must make a ranged touch attack. Chip gave up a 7th-level spell slot for this ability.
Mastery of Shaping: Chip can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. Chip gave up a 6th-level spell slot for this ability.
Spell Power: This ability increases Chip’s effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). Chip gave up a 5th-level spell slot for this ability.
Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of Chip. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability effect , both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level 20). This aura can be dispelled, but Chip can create it again as a free action on his next turn.
Regeneration (Ex): Chip takes normal damage from epic evil-aligned weapons and from spells or effects with the evil descriptor.
Spells: Chip casts arcane spells as a 20th-level Wizard specialized in Divination (banned school: Enchantment). Caster level 22, save DC 22 + spell Level, 23 + spell level for Conjuration and Abjuration spells.
Spells Per Day: 5/8/8/8/8/6/6/6/7/6; Spells Per Day After Buff Routine (5/7/8/7/7/5/5/6/5/4)
"Typical" Spells Prepared: 0-Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Touch of Fatigue, Message
1-True Strike, Mage Armor (cast), Grease, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Feather Fall
2-Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Web, Fog Cloud, Darkness, Mirror Image (x2), Rope Trick
3-Arcane Sight, Displacement, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon (already cast), Wind Wall, Sleet Storm, Haste, Nondetection (already cast)
4- Detect Scrying (already cast), Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Solid Fog (x2), Wall of Ice, Enervation, Resilient Sphere
5-Quickened True Strike, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Overland Flight (already cast), Telekinesis, Extended Greater Invisibility
6-Prying Eyes (already cast), Greater Dispel Magic (x2), Acid Fog, Wall of Iron, Disintegrate,
7-Extended True Seeing, Forcecage, Grasping Hand (+47 bonus to grapple, +42 to hit), Greater Teleport, Waves of Exhaustion, Reverse Gravity
8-Moment of Prescience (cast), Polar Ray (x2), Mind Blank (cast), Dimensional Lock, Clenched Fist (+44 bonus to hit), Empowered Acid Fog
9- Foresight (cast, rod-extended), Shapechange (cast, rod-extended), Time Stop, Crushing Hand (+49 bonus to grapple, +44 to hit), Disjunction, Gate

Spellbook:
0-All
1-Alarm, Color Spray, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Floating Disk, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Summon Monster I, True Strike
2-Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Fog Cloud, Darkness, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Levitate, Locate Object, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Shatter, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster II, Web
3- Arcane Sight, Blink, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Daylight, Dispel Magic Displacement, Explosive Runes, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Major Image, Nondetection, Sleet Storm, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch, Wind Wall
4-Animate Dead, Arcane Eye, Black Tentacles, Detect Scrying, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Enervation, Fear, Ice Storm, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Polymorph, Resilient Sphere, Scrying, Solid Fog, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
5-Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Contact Other Plane, Dismissal, Interposing Hand, Magic Jar, Overland Flight, Shadow Evocation, Summon Monster V, Telekinesis, Telepathic Bond, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force
6-Acid Fog, Analyze Dweomer, Antimagic Field, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Forceful Hand, Globe of Invulnerability, Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Legend Lore, Mislead, Repulsion, Prying Eyes, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron
7-Banishment, Delayed Blast Fireball, Ethereal Jaunt, Finger of Death, Forcecage, Grasping Hand, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Project Image, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, Summon Monster VII Waves of Exhaustion
8-Clenched Fist, Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Fog, Maze, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Polar Ray, Polymorph Any Object, Screen, Summon Monster VIII
9-Astral Projection, Crushing Hand, Disjunction, Foresight, Gate, Shades, Shapechange, Summon Monster IX Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Wish
Summon Familiar: Chip has chosen not to summon a familiar, because feeding it takes time away from paperwork and claims investigations.
Tongues (Su): Chip can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 20th). This ability is always active.

Miscellaneous information: 32 point buy, original stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Middle-aged, +1 to all mental stats, -1 to all physical stats, all stat increases to Int

Feats:
1-Improved Initiative
H-SF (Conjuration)
1W- Scribe Scroll
3- Spell Focus (Transmutation)
5W-Extend Spell
6-Iron Will
9-Spell Penetration
10W-Maximize Spell
12-GSP
15-Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
15W-Quicken spell
18-Empower Spell

If you're wondering about the terrible low-level spell choices, I have pretty limited experience actually playing high-level spellcasters, so I don't really know what to do with them. Also not so sure on what's appropriate to meta-magic up, so if anyone wants to help, that'd be cool.I apologize for any mistakes in my calculations or Chip's stats, and would appreciate any nitpicks on him (in case I ever actually need to use him).

So, noteworthy defenses that are already up:
AC 45
Fort +21 Ref +21 Will +19 (yeah, his best base save is his lowest overall - so sue me)
Mind Blank (24 hours)
Foresight (rod-extended; 440 minutes)
Moment of Prescience (+22 bonus; 22 hours or until discharged)
Flight (22 hours)
Shapechange active (rod-extended; 440 minutes)
Magic Circle Against Evil (per Shapechange)
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (per Shapechange)
DR 15/epic and evil (per Shapechange)
Regeneration 15 (obviated by epic evil weapons or evil spells/effects; per Shapechange)
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification (per Shapechange)
Resistance to fire 10 and electricity 10 (per Shapechange)
Mage Armor (22 hours)
Evasion
Freedom of Movement
Prying Eyes (out on a circular patrol at 500 feet with orders to report back on seeing an enemy; 22 hours)
Nondetection

Also, a floating contingency, but I don't have anything in particular in mind. Assuming Stoneskin set to "when I get attacked." Derp, he already has great DR. Alternative contingencies may include Dimension Door set to the same, Mirror Image set to the same, Mislead set to the same, or something similar.

Also, not really a defense, per say, but Chip puts up extended Rope Tricks or Magnificent Mansions (depending on how his budget is doing) in an isolated area (that he is familiar with) before he goes out to adjust heavenly claims. Because the former last for 44 hours, and the latter 88 hours, his spells per day do not reflect this.

Defenses/escape mechanisms that are a standard action away:
Time Stop
Gate
Greater Teleport
Resilient Sphere
Dimension Door
Extended Greater Invisibility
Displacement
Various Walls (of Force, Ice, Stone, or Iron)
Wind Wall

Debuffs available:
Disjunction (Will negates per object, SR no)
Dimensional Lock (no save, SR yes)
Crushing Hand (+45 to hit; no save, SR yes)
Forcecage (no save, SR no)
Waves of Exhaustion (no save, SR yes)
Reverse Gravity (no save, SR no)
Enervation (+17 to hit v. touch AC; no save, SR yes)
Solid Fog (and lower-level variants; no save, no SR)
Dimensional Anchor (+17 to hit; no save, SR yes)

The relevant attack options are less stellar, because he was intended to adventure with a party, but:
Caster level +26 for the purpose of overcoming spell resistance
Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize available
Crushing Hand (+45 to hit, +49 to grapple; no save, SR yes)
Gate
Polar Ray (+17 to hit, no save, SR yes)
Clenched Fist (+44 to hit; no save, SR yes)
Incendiary cloud (Ref half, SR no)
Forcecage (no save, SR no)
Acid Fog (no save, SR no)
Disintegrate (Fortitude partial, SR yes)

Also, Chip has enough gold to spend some onyx and animate some Fire Giant party-mates, if he really wants to. Plus all the other ways of getting allies.

So, that's a basic idea of what our monk would have to deal with to have a fighting chance at beating the wizard (again, only in core, and at mid-level optimization).

[Rejusu]

Rejusu: Why wouldn't the monk just throw shuriken at you with poison on them? You suffer various poison effects including instant death. And if it's the forcecage without windows...The monk can just hide behind a tree and play the waiting game. If this were being scored it's either a draw or the monk wins (the wizard withdrew)

The one without windows. And how is it that the Monk can just wait it out? The Wizard isn't restricted from attacking in a forcecage, the Monk is. Also I'm not sure how digging in counts as withdrawing.


Of course it's 1/day, I wouldn't use it frivolously (i.e. just to close distance, the monk's 90' single move action does that quite well). For the monk it better serves as a get out of jail free card, not an offensive action.

It doesn't matter if you use it frivolously or not. Once you've used it, it's gone. If you use it to escape one situation you might end up in another where you'd need it.


And if the wizard 'does' have permancied things they would be behind the base xp at 20, and thus not 20 but 19. So no, the default assumption from a freshly drawn level 20 character is that they have 'nothing' that requires xp to get. If you choose that route you have less than the minimum xp required for 20. We're not making them two hypotehtical 20+ characters, but two characters drawn at the cusp of 20.

Sorry, I didn't know we were completely ignoring WBL. Allow me to readjust my argument to these unrealistic assumptions.


Regarding flying creatures...yes, ignore them or go sit under a tree with full cover/concealment until they decide to come down and play. Fly isn't bad, but it's hardly a necessity and, as you pointed out, a huge mistake when facing someone who can potentially cast dispel magic. Of course, if your mage had already burned their level 3 slots or was clearly not an abjurer, then I might consider taking to flight.

And they're just going to what... leave you alone? Concealment/cover is a million miles from an ironclad defence. And even if we were to entertain this notion, it's not like the Monk can do anything either. So we're back to thumb twiddling.


It's unclear to me what you're doing to achieve more than 5 spells in a time stop. (fortresses have 4 walls and a roof + 2 gold wyrms = at least 6 spells). And since you can't maximize a time stop (it's already 9th level)...the example exceeds limits. As for Gate...you have to have the xp to cast it. I suppose if you've agreed to be dropped to 19th level by making yourself something requiring xp that makes sense, but then you only have three level 9 spells (time stop + 2 gates?) which means no chaos maw (yes I know you didn't bring it up, but it was brought up and addressed). You could purchase those 9th level scrolls, sure. But standard leveling gives you only 2 known spells of the 9th level. (Plus you have to have several blessed books to carry all the spells wanted).

Honestly I don't think there's any point continuing this if you're just going to continually assume the Wizard is a complete idiot. Why on earth would they cast multiple walls of force when they can simply use forcecage (which has already been mentioned in this thread for crying out loud) or a wall of force with the scult spell feat applied? And aren't we also forgetting about quicken spell as well? At least you've acknowledged WBL in this paragraph. By countering every point made with these silly assumptions you're only weakening your own argument.

If a Monk beats a Wizard who has spent five to six rounds assembling a cube of force when he could have done it one round it doesn't illustrate the strength of the Monk. All it shows is the incompetence of the player using the Wizard. So can you please quit assuming the Wizard is being played by a bumbling fool. It lends you no credence.


Hrm, the point I was making is that when creating a scroll of wish you don't need to cast wish multiple times. Hrm, I believe there was an argument in another thread on the ability of characters (who lack CL) to contribute to the creation of wondrous items. (Ah, thank you Story)

You don't need to cast it, but it does need to be expended each day. Which means you still have to pay for that spellcasting service. Of course with the aforementioned web enhancement of item creation the costs are simplified to the character providing the XP only paying 80% of the base cost. As opposed to a caster who only has to pay 50% of it. Without those rules though a character without a caster level could not contribute the XP component of an item.


And a single instance would only be anecdotal and without actual predictive power. The tier partisans wouldn't change their tune even if the monk won initiative and grapples the wizard to death.

Do two rounds then. One where initiative is done normally and a "what if" where the other side wins initiative. But I doubt you'd change your tune even after the Monk was completely and utterly defeated in both scenarios. You won't do this though, because it's easier for your argument when you can make contrived assumptions about how the Wizard would play and selectively forget about or ignore concepts such as WBL.

I mean the list of incorrect assumptions you've made in this thread is simply staggering.



Things don't get better for the wizard the more items get introduced.

Okay, let's just make an important note here:
WIZARDS GET WBL TOO

Because it seems to be something you're just pretending doesn't happen. You're saying that the Monk can just get this item or that. Except what are magic items based on? Spells. Pretty much all your wealth by level will be spent replicating what a caster can do innately. Not only can he do them innately, but also FREQUENTLY and in many cases more powerfully.

Oh and he gets the same wealth by level you do. Worth mentioning twice. Because while you're spending all your WBL just to try and catch up to his innate abilities, the Wizard can just spend all his augmenting said abilities.

[Pickford]

That might work, but show me a no save, no SR single use magic item that casts an AMF on the target.

You don't need one. Just pick up the rod of absorption, rods of cancellation and the ioun stones that suck up spells. Boom, you can't be touched by a caster. This is on top of the best save progression and SR of any class and a touch AC that scales better than any other class (so good luck actually 'landing' the ray attack that will just be ignored courtesy of a few cheap magic items. (This answers Augmentals question equally as well. Fighters get better melee combat, but they need their hands for weapons, the monk can just carry rods and still perform unarmed attacks).

Eldariel: Anyone you need to use the rods on will have loot far in excess of the cost of the items. For example, a full book of spells weighs in at something around 5000gp...that's a 'normal' book, not even a blessed one. A wizard who scribed no additional spells beyond the 2 per level will have at least 3 books (and magic items etc...)

Magic items are only suppressed for 1d4 rounds, there's a 1 in 4 chance (even if you succeed) of it being a pointless spell-cast in a one on one fight. And, assuming the monk was wise enough to bring 'two'? Total waste.

This was a hypothetical 20 on 20 encounter, and a monk is immune to cloudkill. The rod would only be necessary for removing things once the other possibilities were used up (i.e. abundant step and the boots) or for easily getting by things (though if they throw up one of the walls the monk could just leap it or run up it (wall of force)).

Planar binding takes too long to be used in a random encounter, same thing with all the crazy hour long spells that usually get thrown around (I'm looking at you Ice Assassin, 8 hour casting time...right.)

The only thing you need to counter cloudkill is a periapt of proof against poison (relatively cheap).

What you really need is 2 things for when that wizard flees: 1 something to scry him (or better, grapple and pin to muzzle him, then there's no teleport) and a pair of boots of teleportation. He flees, you follow. Contingency works under a very specific circumstance, as long as you don't violate that 'before' anchoring or gagging him it's useless. Plus, if you know where he's teleporting to (that would have to be established in the contingency) you can ambush him there with friends.

The monk gains no real benefit from flight, don't waste gold on it.

Spuddles: Guess what you can't do while muzzled: Teleport. (Yeah, that includes archons) I don't have the BoED but if you'd like to match your favorite wizard up against Story's favorite wizard we can see who wins that matchup too. Actually I'd be happy pitting any wizard you want against a Sorceror with IotSV (Now that's a scary class)

But we're getting off topic, Maximized time stop...only possible with a rod of maximize, greater. Cute with the disjunction, but you don't get to act over and over again without the monk caving the wizards face in. First monk action, you're being grappled and muzzled, now you can't cast anything. Or assuming you do get even one casting off, the base DC is going to be around 3-7 easily passed, nothing happens. p.s. you can't target (or harm) any entity or its items while in time stop.

Again it can be difficult to cast when you can't use verbal or somatic components. Spells like Gate for example.

Karnith: Why does he have two sets of hp? Hrm the lower end is 91...I should just invest in enough UMD to cast powerword kill eh? :smallwink:
Of note, you always get the 1st level hp (4) so it's technically 19d4 + 4 + con bonus + anything else (improved toughness, etc...)

Other noted weakness, the shapechange focus takes up a head slot. You can't shapechange 'and' wear the circlet for intelligence bonus. Generally speaking I wouldn't fault you for ignoring spell components, but if you're playing exactly raw, that's an issue.

How did you get a 7 str as a human? (Also, what was your stat method?)
edit:nm I noticed the aging thing)

Interesting side question: Changing into a creature that is, by definition, a particular alignment has no impact on alignment for purposes of spell effects? (i.e. How does an anti-good effect work on someone who shapechanges into a Solar?)

Seeing the build does give me thoughts on the utility of certain feats I had otherwise dismissed outright though. As a monk's strikes are adamantium they would be fantastic for just destroying all the gear outright.

Here, a not optimized monk:

Bob the Builder - 20th level monk
HD 19d6+6+(Conmodx20) = (85-180hp; ave: 132.5)

32pointbuy
original: 13 str (+1); 17 dex (+3); 12 con (+1); 16 wis (+3); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1);
After ability gains:
13 str (+1); 18 dex (+4); 12 con (+1); 20 wis (+5); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)
After manuals:
13 str (+1); 22 dex (+6); 16 con (+3); 24 wis (+7); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)
After items:
19 str (+4); 28 dex (+9); 16 con (+3); 30 wis (+10); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)

Saves:
Ref: 27 (12 base + 1 competence + 5 resistance + 9 dexmod)
Fort: 21 (12 base + 1 competence +5 resistance + 3 conmod)
Will: 28 (12 base + 1 competence + 5 resistance + 10 wismod)

AC: 33 (10 base + 10 wismod + 9 dexmod + 4 acbonus)
Touch AC: 33 (same)

items: (should be: 741,280gp...still had to make some sadly tough choices)
Pale green ioun (30k); Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k); Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36k); Manual of Quick Action +4 (110k); Tome of Understanding +4 (110k); Manual of Bodily Health +4 (110k); Rod of Absorption (50k); Lavender and Green ioun (40k); Periapt of Wisdom +6 (36k); Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36k); Ring of Spell Turning (98,280); Boots of Teleportation (49k); Rod of Cancellation (11k);

Anyway, with those saves that monk auto-passes: (reflex saves up to 5th, will saves up to 6th, fort saves (sadly) only auto-pass up to 1st)

1st: Grease
2nd: Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Web
3rd: Wind Wall, Slow
4th: Wall of Ice
5th: Wall of Stone, Telekinesis

The other spells are pretty intense...but all spell levels can be absorbed or reflected by the combined 127 levels of spells from the rod, ring and stone. Sadly (if I could have afforded it) a second ring would have given 154 levels of reflection...sigh.

Anyway, I guess that leaves it pretty much down to melee vs melee. What do you think?

Unarmed: 2d10 + strmod(+4)
BAB: +15/+10/+5; Flurry BAB: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
AB: +20/+15/+10; Flurry AB: +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 (+4 strmod; +1 competence;)
Ranged AB: +25/+20/+15; Flurry RAB: +25/+25/+25/+20/+15

Hrm...doesn't look good against that 45 AC as a Solar...but wait, there's hope.
You only have a 20 touch AC and 151 hp...meet Ki Blast: 3d6+ wismod(10) (so, 13-28 per hit) damage ranged touch attack. At 20th level the monk can use at least 11 of these or 143-308 force damage (excluding crits...hypothetically that puts the top end damage at 506).


I'd be happy to figure out what feats would be necessary to actually touch the solar, but I found the ki blast solution amusing. Kamehameha! :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Rejusu:
Spells can't pass through force effects. No windows, no spells. (Though gaze attacks work if you want to shapeshift into a basilisk or whatever)

Well that's why I wouldn't use it except in dire need. I suppose you could put together a spell-list entirely based around trying to control the location of a single creature...but it'd be pretty narrow in focus.

We're not ignoring wbl, but xp shenanigans is. If a wizard wants to engage in those, the monk can too.

Concealment/cover is proof against any targeted ability which is...most of them. Yeah there are aoe, but those do 'alot' less damage and almost always allow a reflex save (so you know it's going to be made)

I'm not assuming anything about the wizard being smart or stupid or anything, I'm just saying that monks get great saving throws and abilities for messing with spellcasters and with gear those abilities are only exacerbated. Please, by all means, give a spell list and we can run through actions round by round (and examine the probabilities of success) and see where the points of failure for both classes lay. Granted, the whole fight would go alot differently if the mage is facing another mage or the monk another melee.

In the case of writing a scroll, no it doesn't require casting once per day. The spellcasting services cost enough that it would be 9 times the price of the actual scroll to have someone scribe one for you.

To have actual statistical certainty of any kind you'd need at least 50 samples and preferably more upwards of 500.

Ok, so what is the magic item that a wizard is going to purchase that flips the melee character's game completely upside down in the manner of the ring of spell turning, rod of absorption, and lavender green ioun stone?

[Spuddles]

A monk isn't going to survive the CL20 chained (via rod) greater dispels that turn off all his magic items. He also isn't going to survive having a Dream Larvae or Phane Gated in via a CL20 scroll of Gate if for whatever reason a wizard cannot spend xp to cast spells.

If all Pickford's seen are wizards that prepare meteor storm and disintegrate, I can see why he thinks monks might actually contribute at high levels.

[Pickford]

A monk isn't going to survive the CL20 chained (via rod) greater dispels that turn off all his magic items. He also isn't going to survive having a Dream Larvae or Phane Gated in via a CL20 scroll of Gate if for whatever reason a wizard cannot spend xp to cast spells.

If all Pickford's seen are wizards that prepare meteor storm and disintegrate, I can see why he thinks monks might actually contribute at high levels.

Spell turning flips those greater dispels and shut off the buffs of the wizard (which happily includes the shapechange effect and foresight..how ironic)

[Crinias]

Spell turning flips those greater dispels and shut off the buffs of the wizard (which happily includes the shapechange effect and foresight..how ironic)

This is assuming that the Wizard doesn't have Greater Arcane Sight and/or Analyze Dweomer to identify all of the Monk's items and buffs so he can avoid that sort of situation, right?

[Pickford]

This is assuming that the Wizard doesn't have Greater Arcane Sight and/or Analyze Dweomer to identify all of the Monk's items and buffs so he can avoid that sort of situation, right?

You mean by not bothering to cast in the first place? Yeah I suppose so...why be a wizard then?

[Flickerdart]

My favourite part about Pickford's arguments is that they're all "what if the monk has spell x" which would make sense if he was arguing for the wizard side but not so much with the spell-less monk.

[Carth]

My favourite part about Pickford's arguments...

Ooh! Let's start a highlights reel!

[Pickford]

My favourite part about Pickford's arguments is that they're all "what if the monk has spell x" which would make sense if he was arguing for the wizard side but not so much with the spell-less monk.

Can you quote me on that? (I don't see where I made the argument).

[Spuddles]

Spuddles: Guess what you can't do while muzzled: Teleport. (Yeah, that includes archons) I don't have the BoED but if you'd like to match your favorite wizard up against Story's favorite wizard we can see who wins that matchup too. Actually I'd be happy pitting any wizard you want against a Sorceror with IotSV (Now that's a scary class)

But we're getting off topic, Maximized time stop...only possible with a rod of maximize, greater. Cute with the disjunction, but you don't get to act over and over again without the monk caving the wizards face in. First monk action, you're being grappled and muzzled, now you can't cast anything. Or assuming you do get even one casting off, the base DC is going to be around 3-7 easily passed, nothing happens. p.s. you can't target (or harm) any entity or its items while in time stop.

Time Stop is to recharge spells with pearls of power, if needed.

How does the monk get to ever go first? Between celerity & moment of prescience, and foresight, your monk has literally no option but to wait until a wizard decides what to do.

And how are you grappling an incorporeal opponent you can't even reach?

And how are you going to defeat a Phane or a Dream Larvae?


Spell turning flips those greater dispels and shut off the buffs of the wizard (which happily includes the shapechange effect and foresight..how ironic)

It's a good thing I'm targeting your items and not you with that dispel, then.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Spuddles: Guess what you can't do while muzzled: Teleport. (Yeah, that includes archons)

Supernatural Abilities (and Spell Likes, for that matter) do not have verbal or somatic components. So even if you managed to grapple an Archon it'd only be until their next turn, if not earlier.

[Spuddles]

Supernatural Abilities (and Spell Likes, for that matter) do not have verbal or somatic components. So even if you managed to grapple an Archon it'd only be until their next turn, if not earlier.

I was mistaken about that spell- Holy Transformation is Cleric 7, from SpC.

Regardless, a wizard has plenty of 5th level slots and lots of time in his MMM. And thanks to Mindblank and other abjurations up all the time, mundanes like monks will always be clueless as to what the wizard is doing.

Anticipate Teleport, Greater is practically a 6th level auto-time stop. Every time the monk tries to [teleport] to within 100ft of the wizard, he gets delayed for 3 rounds with no idea he is being delayed for 3 rounds.

[Eldest]

Pickford, I'd be happy to run a duel with you as a lower level wizard versus a lower level monk. I'd offer to do a level 20 vs. level 20 but I don't have any experience at that level, or even near to it. Also, please say where you're getting the rules for being able to tie and gag somebody in a grapple: the closest I can see is that you are holding somebody (after pinning them, which appears to only be able to happen on the second round) immobile and can stop them from speaking.

[Pickford]

Pickford, I'd be happy to run a duel with you as a lower level wizard versus a lower level monk. I'd offer to do a level 20 vs. level 20 but I don't have any experience at that level, or even near to it. Also, please say where you're getting the rules for being able to tie and gag somebody in a grapple: the closest I can see is that you are holding somebody (after pinning them, which appears to only be able to happen on the second round) immobile and can stop them from speaking.

If you have multiple attacks you can grapple, then pin same round. (at which point the pinned party can't speak)

Kalaska'Agathas: Actually they function just like the spell. So no verbal, no dice. (Supernatural sometimes don't provoke AoO...but that depends on what it's doing)

Spuddles: That would be good and potentially makes it important to teleport at least 5ft/lvl away from the wizard. (to avoid the delay)

[Eldest]

If you have multiple attacks you can grapple, then pin same round. (at which point the pinned party can't speak).

So... no response to my offer, or anybody else's offer, to run a duel, to show how some of your ideas might be flawed? Because at this point it's just you bringing out items to counter possible points that the wizard does, while ignoring several others. I think a duel would be the best way to settle this, as that's really the point of the entire thread.

And my apologies on the grapple: for some reason I thought that it was a standard action maneuver.

[Carth]

Having a bunch of battles is a great idea, then we could see once and for all who comes out on top consistently. Oh wait, test of spite already did that, so we already know the answer. :smallbiggrin:

[shaikujin]

To balance out limited used per day resources or single use items, instead of just a single combat where characters can simply nova, can I recommend that we do a run of 4 battles at each level to simulate the average number of encounters expected per day.

Something like:


Battle 1 - Fully rested, full HP, full complement of spells, number of stunning fists, number of rages, x/day use magic items fully charged, etc

Battle 2 - All resources are reduced by whatever was used in Battle 1. Dead/disabled characters are revived to 1 HP.
Fight starts 2 hours after previous fight and combatants can use whatever resources to heal/recover from damage/disability/status effects in that 2 hours

Battle 3 - All resources are reduced by whatever was used in Battle 2.
Dead/disabled characters are revived to 1 HP.
Fight starts 2 hours after previous fight and combatants can use whatever resources to heal/recover from damage/disability/status effects in that 2 hours

Battle 4 - All resources are reduced by whatever was used in Battle 3.
Dead/disabled characters are revived to 1 HP.
Fight starts 2 hours after previous fight and combatants can use whatever resources to heal/recover from damage/disability/status effects in that 2 hours



We then average out the performance of all 4 battles. ie if wizard wins 100% of the time in battle 1, 75% in battle 2, 50% in battle 3, 25% in battle 4, the average will be (100+75+50+25)/400.


Also, instead of simply saying level 1, level 2 characters, characters have the standard amount of XP for that level. The XP can be used wholly for class levels, or some can be spent for LA, or even LA buyoff, crafting, learning spells etc


Does that seem fair?

Like the OP's intention, I was hoping to see at what level does the gap widens where to a point where non casters can't catch up to casters.

[Eldariel]

Monk Ki Blast requires Move Action and two Stunning Fist attempts to use and a Standard Action to launch so you're not getting more than one per round. Also, Wizard doesn't even need to cast spells to beat you at that point, Shapechange into Pit Fiend or whatever and kick your ass martially since your martial stats are ****.

Also, Chain Greater Dispel can be chained through your items first to disable them before disabling you. Since they don't target you, your protective items are disabled with no contest.

[ArcturusV]

Let me save you a few posts Eldariel:

Pickford would probably then say something like "Well if the Wizard wants to throw down against me. My fists overcome a Pit Fiend's DR, and I can stunning fist it so that it can't do anything while I beat it unto death."

To which someone will probably reply, "Well outsiders are immune to effects like Stunning Fist."

To which he'd point out that the flurry and ki strike means he'd out DPS the pit fiend and thus win.

To which someone would probably point out that due to Buffs, or just the typically high AC that a fiend would probably have (Least any that would be worth shapeshifting into), that he probably wouldn't be able to land a blow anyway.

To which there would be an "nuh-uh!" sort of reply with Schrodinger's WBL-mancy again.

[Arundel]

You mean by not bothering to cast in the first place? Yeah I suppose so...why be a wizard then?

I'm not getting the feeling that you're thinking one part of this "duel" through. You have to remember that a wizard played worth his salt is magnitudes smarter than anyone who has ever lived. All of us working together to play the wizard still isn't doing him justice. The wizard can run through all the thoughts in this whole thread as a free actions and likely weigh the probabilities for success.

What is the Int score on your monk? How hard are you going to metaggame and still lose?

[Karnith]

Karnith: Why does he have two sets of hp? Hrm the lower end is 91...I should just invest in enough UMD to cast powerword kill eh? :smallwink:
The lower-end HP values are his HP totals without the amulet of health on his person. The parentheticals are his hp totals with the amulet of health.

Of note, you always get the 1st level hp (4) so it's technically 19d4 + 4 + con bonus + anything else (improved toughness, etc...)
His hp is already calculated that way, even though I didn't write it out. Also, it only gives him a single extra hp (with average hp values), so it's not a huge deal.

Other noted weakness, the shapechange focus takes up a head slot. You can't shapechange 'and' wear the circlet for intelligence bonus. Generally speaking I wouldn't fault you for ignoring spell components, but if you're playing exactly raw, that's an issue.
Actually, so far as I can tell, the shapechange focus is not a magic item; it grants no benefits, and is not magic in and of itself, so it shouldn't interfere with the Headband of Intellect. It'll look silly before he shapechanges, but that's not a big deal.

Interesting side question: Changing into a creature that is, by definition, a particular alignment has no impact on alignment for purposes of spell effects? (i.e. How does an anti-good effect work on someone who shapechanges into a Solar?)
Per the SRD on the good subtype:
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the good-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above)

Here, a not optimized monk:

Bob the Builder - 20th level monk
HD 19d6+6+(Conmodx20) = (85-180hp; ave: 132.5)

32pointbuy
original: 13 str (+1); 17 dex (+3); 12 con (+1); 16 wis (+3); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1);
After ability gains:
13 str (+1); 18 dex (+4); 12 con (+1); 20 wis (+5); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)
After manuals:
13 str (+1); 22 dex (+6); 16 con (+3); 24 wis (+7); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)
After items:
19 str (+4); 28 dex (+9); 16 con (+3); 30 wis (+10); 8 int (-1); 8 cha (-1)

Saves:
Ref: 27 (12 base + 1 competence + 5 resistance + 9 dexmod)
Fort: 21 (12 base + 1 competence +5 resistance + 3 conmod)
Will: 28 (12 base + 1 competence + 5 resistance + 10 wismod)

AC: 33 (10 base + 10 wismod + 9 dexmod + 4 acbonus)
Touch AC: 33 (same)

items: (should be: 741,280gp...still had to make some sadly tough choices)
Pale green ioun (30k); Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k); Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36k); Manual of Quick Action +4 (110k); Tome of Understanding +4 (110k); Manual of Bodily Health +4 (110k); Rod of Absorption (50k); Lavender and Green ioun (40k); Periapt of Wisdom +6 (36k); Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36k); Ring of Spell Turning (98,280); Boots of Teleportation (49k); Rod of Cancellation (11k);

Anyway, with those saves that monk auto-passes: (reflex saves up to 5th, will saves up to 6th, fort saves (sadly) only auto-pass up to 1st)

1st: Grease
2nd: Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Web
3rd: Wind Wall, Slow
4th: Wall of Ice
5th: Wall of Stone, Telekinesis

The other spells are pretty intense...but all spell levels can be absorbed or reflected by the combined 127 levels of spells from the rod, ring and stone. Sadly (if I could have afforded it) a second ring would have given 154 levels of reflection...sigh.

Anyway, I guess that leaves it pretty much down to melee vs melee. What do you think?

Unarmed: 2d10 + strmod(+4)
BAB: +15/+10/+5; Flurry BAB: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
AB: +20/+15/+10; Flurry AB: +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 (+4 strmod; +1 competence;)
Ranged AB: +25/+20/+15; Flurry RAB: +25/+25/+25/+20/+15

Hrm...doesn't look good against that 45 AC as a Solar...but wait, there's hope.
You only have a 20 touch AC and 151 hp...meet Ki Blast: 3d6+ wismod(10) (so, 13-28 per hit) damage ranged touch attack. At 20th level the monk can use at least 11 of these or 143-308 force damage (excluding crits...hypothetically that puts the top end damage at 506).


I like your monk build, but a few issues that may come up, regarding a theoretical duel between Bob and Chip:
-That's a lot of gear in consumables; whereas Chip is a character I would actually play in a game (depending on op-level), Bob seems pretty focused on a duel. Not a big deal, since we are posing a duel scenario, but your character is pretty meta-gamed.
-You don't have Freedom of Movement, so a solid fog (etc.) is probably going to win Chip the duel (doesn't target, so spell turning etc. won't do anything; you can teleport out, but Chip has a bunch of them, and it weakens your defense against forcecage)
-Your grapple modifier isn't terribly high, and minus FoM Crushing Hand is probably going to grapple you to death (the "hand" spells don't target, so spell turning etc. won't do anything)
-Your strength score isn't very high, so Clenched Fist will bull rush you until you kill it (again, no target)
-Regeneration 15 and DR 15/epic and evil puts melee generally in Chip's court.
-Waves of Exhaustion will further tip the balance in Chip's favor (doesn't target)
-How do you reach Chip when he's flying/in the face of reverse gravity (again, mostly no save, no SR)?
-You don't really have a way to deal with miss chances or invisibility, as far as I can tell. How will you deal with Mirror Image/Displacement/Greater Invisibility?

General tips/other things:
-Since you have Timeless Body, there's really no reason not to just be venerable and get the +3 bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
-Freedom of Movement is invaluable at high levels, and the ring is only 40,000 gp.
-Lavender and Green Ioun stones require a readied action to absorb spell, so they're not the best at protecting you in combat.
-Partially-charged wands are a monk's best friend.

[Greenish]

summon familiar tonguesBoEF isn't core. :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

BoEF isn't core. :smalltongue:
I wish that I could say that wasn't a typo.

[Talya]

Assuming no starting buffs, and close proximity, level 1 is the best situation for the monk. Almost any class can one-shot just about any other. At Level 1, if you lose initiative and someone targets you, there's a good chance of death. This is worse the lower your hit die is and the higher your opponent's damage die is. Nerveskitter helps balance this a bit, but...yeah. Level 1 monks don't really start to show their suckitude yet.

Beyond level 3, I don't see things working out nearly as well. If the wizard ever gets to cast a spell, at any level, the monk is toast. In a contest vs. a wizard, the monk is going to rely heavily on taking him out before he gets to his spells. The higher level things get, the worse things are for the monk.

[shaikujin]

Also, Chain Greater Dispel can be chained through your items first to disable them before disabling you. Since they don't target you, your protective items are disabled with no contest.

I have a couple of questions on dispel magic and similar spells. This is to playgrounders, not just Eldariel. Without metagame knowledge,

1) Is this considered a standard spell caster tactic to use against all monsters they come across?

2) Should this normally be the first spell that spell casters will cast against a monster?

3) If not, under what situation/criteria would a spell caster consider casting this spell? Ie upon seeing the enemy display obvious feats of magic such as a wingless monster fly, a spell casting monster casting buff spells etc?

4) In a normal 4 encounter/day campaign, how many spell slots should a spell caster devote to dispel magic and related spells like greater dispel magic, reaving dispel, chain dispel etc?

5) In what situation should a spell caster choose to use targeted dispel, or choose area dispel, or choose to target items? Which will be chosen first?



Thanks! I want to see how far optimized warriors can go.

[Dimers]

BoEF isn't core. :smalltongue:

Well, it's sort of soft-core. :smallbiggrin:

[Karnith]

I am far from a high-op player, but I believe that I can field these questions:

1) Is this considered a standard spell caster tactic to use against all monsters they come across?
All monsters? No, probably not; anything without magic items or native spellcasting is probably going to die without having to strip its buffs away. Against other spellcasters, or against people with items/buffs up, Disjunctions and/or chained greater dispel magics are generally preferred.

2) Should this normally be the first spell that spell casters will cast against a monster?
Well, it depends on what you mean by "against." The first spell that a wizard will cast in combat will probably be nerveskitter, or a celerity if he thinks he can't win initiative (or sometimes, both). Then usually comes the Time Stop, which the spellcaster spends either buffing himself, summoning things that might help, or using shenanigans to debuff/attack the opponent. Ending with a readied way of killing the opponent or debuffing him his nice.

If by "against" you meant "what will be the first spell a wizard casts on an opponent," then yes, probably, unless he has sufficient reason to believe that he has an attack that the opponent can't defend against.

3) If not, under what situation/criteria would a spell caster consider casting this spell? Ie upon seeing the enemy display obvious feats of magic such as a wingless monster fly, a spell casting monster casting buff spells etc?
If an enemy has magic items or buffs up (detectable by arcane sight, Spot checks, etc.), it's probably worth it to cast either a disjunction or a chained greater dispel magic.

5) In what situation should a spell caster choose to use targeted dispel, or choose area dispel, or choose to target items? Which will be chosen first?
Against anything that obviously isn't going to be casting spells of its own (i.e. most monsters, non-casters), targeting the items is probably the safest bet. Against spellcasters, you want to hit their buffs first, so a targeted or area dispel, depending on what they have up/what you think they have up. Of course, disjunction lets you hit both, and you don't have to worry about targeting, so there's that.

Also, if I'm wrong, I should very much like to know what the correct tactic would be.

[shaikujin]

And what do monks have that lets them use these items more effectively than, say, a fighter?

There are actually a few gems that are monk specific (or gives more benefits, or are more easily used by monks), like Scorpion Karma (and the set), Sparring dummy of the master, Gauntlet of the Talon coupled with monk's belt etc

Also, you can potentially stack more enhancement bonuses to unarmed strikes compared to normal weapons. eg
1) Kensai that enhances his unarmed strikes with +1 enhantment bonus and put the rest of the +9 into other effects
2) who also gets a necklace of natural attacks +1 and put the rest of the +9 into other effects
3) pays a wizard to cast permanent greater magic fang


A normal weapon with +10 weapon enhancement costs 200,000 gp normally.
A weapon with +7 enhancement costs 98,000 gp.
A CL 20 Greater Magic Fang gives +5 enhancement and costs 8,100 gp

Since the +5 from magic fang will over-ride the +1 enhancement bonus on the weapons, we waste +1 on each.

So with 196,000k (excluding the 8.1 k for the spell), a kensai monk can get +6 worth of abilities from the necklace, and another +6 from his kensai ability.

That's +5 enhancement bonus, plus +12 in abilities. +17 in all.



As to the necklace of natural attacks, if DM allows custom magic items, add the necklace of natural attacks ability to 5 different Chronocharms (up to 5 chronocharms can be stacked into a single item that takes up only 1 neck slot), or 6 Psionatrixes (up to 6 Psionatrixes can be stacked into a single item that takes up only 1 neck slot).

If doing the above to Psionatrixes is allowed, that's another +30 in abilities.

There are ways to boost this even more with mind blade + dragon magazine feat that allows it to become any chosen simple/martial/exotic weapon.

Add to that the legacy weapon that merges with a mindblade.


This is useful for getting as much properties as possible on a primary weapon.

For properties like spellblade, defending, eager, warning, smoking etc that works perfectly without needing to be on the primary weapon, put them on weapons that are considered wielded at all times, like armor spikes and hidden blades from Complete Scoundrel.

[Greenish]

Also, if I'm wrong, I should very much like to know what the correct tactic would be.Well, for general play, the correct tactic is for everyone to pretend Disjunction doesn't exist. :smallamused:

[Karnith]

Well, for general play, the correct tactic is for everyone to pretend Disjunction doesn't exist. :smallamused:
Well, sure. But if it's an option, then it's basically the option. One of the many features of a well-balanced game!

[Rejusu]

The monk gains no real benefit from flight, don't waste gold on it.

Since every one of your "Monk wins" scenarios seems to end with the Monk grappling the Wizard I'm not really sure how you're going to grapple someone 100ft in the air. But yes, flight for a melee class is no benefit whatsoever. It's not like you'll ever have to fight a flying enemy.

That said considering all your hypothetical Monk victories end in a grapple, how do you actually propose that the Monk gets close enough to the Wizard to ever initiate one? You're constantly just assuming the Wizard will let the Monk saunter up and give him a hug.


Edit: Rejusu:
Spells can't pass through force effects. No windows, no spells. (Though gaze attacks work if you want to shapeshift into a basilisk or whatever)

The Wizard doesn't need to attack directly. By this point he's already gated in some nasties to wear you down while he buffs up. Also there's items like ring gates which a wizard can merely attach to one of the aforementioned nasties allowing him a portal big enough to cast spells through that won't expose him too much.


Well that's why I wouldn't use it except in dire need. I suppose you could put together a spell-list entirely based around trying to control the location of a single creature...but it'd be pretty narrow in focus.

What? Two forcecages? There are plenty of situations in which you might need it and a Wizard can put you into many of them without really trying.


We're not ignoring wbl, but xp shenanigans is. If a wizard wants to engage in those, the monk can too.

Acting like every spell effect with an XP component is being paid for with the Wizards XP IS ignoring WBL. Every time something like gate or wish has been brought up you respond with "well the Wizard would be level 19 then because they would have spent XP on it". Which just completely ignores the fact that all these things can be bought with gold.


Concealment/cover is proof against any targeted ability which is...most of them. Yeah there are aoe, but those do 'alot' less damage and almost always allow a reflex save (so you know it's going to be made)

Until whatever is providing the cover is removed. Or they use an attack that penetrates concealment/cover, of which there are plenty. Plenty that aren't AoE I should add, just to save you repeating yourself.


I'm not assuming anything about the wizard being smart or stupid or anything, I'm just saying that monks get great saving throws and abilities for messing with spellcasters and with gear those abilities are only exacerbated. Please, by all means, give a spell list and we can run through actions round by round (and examine the probabilities of success) and see where the points of failure for both classes lay. Granted, the whole fight would go alot differently if the mage is facing another mage or the monk another melee.

When you assume that the Wizard is taking a round to assemble each wall of his defence you're assuming the Wizard is stupid. Don't even try and deny it. And why would we run through actions round by round when we can just run a duel and run analysis afterwards? That would end this back and forth theorycrafting and dispel any unrealistic assumptions that are being thrown around.


In the case of writing a scroll, no it doesn't require casting once per day. The spellcasting services cost enough that it would be 9 times the price of the actual scroll to have someone scribe one for you.

It requires expending the spell once per day, this is not the same as casting. However you're still employing the services of a spellcaster to use up one of his spells. The table that lists the market price for employing a spellcaster is based upon the level of the caster and the level of the spell being used before taking into account material component and XP costs. Given that for crafting you require a spellcasters time, his expertise (caster level), and an expenditure of one of his spell slots I would argue that the same prices apply even if the spell isn't actually being cast. Yes it's more expensive than the actual scroll, because it's the market price for a service. It's like hiring a factory to build something for you as opposed to merely buying their product.

However it's a moot point as the web articles simply introduced specific discounts for crafting an item.


To have actual statistical certainty of any kind you'd need at least 50 samples and preferably more upwards of 500.

So to be sure that Usain Bolt can outrun a fat man you'd need at least 50 samples? You don't need statistical certainty when simple observation and deduction makes the result clear. Bringing statistics into it just allows you to ignore unfavourable results as anomolous. So what even if the Monk lost ten times in a row it doesn't matter because he'll win the other 490 times?


Ok, so what is the magic item that a wizard is going to purchase that flips the melee character's game completely upside down in the manner of the ring of spell turning, rod of absorption, and lavender green ioun stone?

Oh I don't know. Metamagic rods for one. But anything the Monk can buy the Wizard can buy too. And the Wizard has his magic on top of his magic items.

At any rate a duel would settle this quite easily. But because you have no real conviction in your argument it's just something you're not going to do. Every single person here (in other words pretty much everyone posting in this thread besides yourself) would quite happily see this duel because they're convinced the Wizard would win. You on the other hand are avoiding it because you don't have that same kind of conviction. Hence it's easier for you just to sit back and theorycraft where you can make assumptions and ignore things. And frankly it's going no where.

P.S. Plus now you've just stopped arguing for the Monks strengths and started arguing for the strength of magic items. Aside from the spell resistance and saves a lot of what you've been arguing has nothing to do with the Monk at all.

[Eldariel]

I have a couple of questions on dispel magic and similar spells. This is to playgrounders, not just Eldariel. Without metagame knowledge,

1) Is this considered a standard spell caster tactic to use against all monsters they come across?

Monsters? The enemy you fear is other spellcasters; monstrous (e.g. Outsiders, Liches, Ethergaunts, Dragons, etc.) or humanoid. There's no stronger spell against them and indeed, it's probably impossible to defeat them without dispelling them. Also, magic items are hugely powerful (as all these threads prove) so being able to disable a number of them easily vindicates Chained Dispel Magic.

The fact that they also wreck mundanes who rely on magic items is pure plus; honestly, as these threads should prove, it doesn't take very much effort or many spells from a caster's arsenal to defeat mundanes, even ones specifically built for the challenge. You build your strategies against the greatest foe (other high level casters) with enough leeway to defeat anything else you might need to.


2) Should this normally be the first spell that spell casters will cast against a monster?

Depends. How many magic items does it have (your Arcane Sight should let you find out)? What monster is it (your Knowledge checks should let you find out)? Purple Worm; you probably just Hold Monster/Dominate Monster/Ray of Stupidity/whatever it.

It's really not an adversary worth respecting anyways; destroy its mind and the body will fail. Dragon? Yeah, Dispel Magic is a really powerful tool, though one that has to be applied with care in face of the creature's own magic (Contingency, Teleport, reflective Battlemagic Perceptioned Counterspell & the like).


3) If not, under what situation/criteria would a spell caster consider casting this spell? Ie upon seeing the enemy display obvious feats of magic such as a wingless monster fly, a spell casting monster casting buff spells etc?

You identify enemies with Knowledges, Arcane Sight/True Seeing/etc. and Divinations if necessary (preferably days before engaging, researching your target crypt/fortress/whatever and the guardians/enemies you're facing as well as any hostile factions). Identifying enemies based on them flying without wings is for dumb people.


4) In a normal 4 encounter/day campaign, how many spell slots should a spell caster devote to dispel magic and related spells like greater dispel magic, reaving dispel, chain dispel etc?

A couple. What have your Divinations told you? How many can you afford? 3-4. Pearls of Powers and Metamagic Rods help. You still need your offense but Dispels are a critical tool.

Though high level magic changes the very nature of an adventuring "day" tremendously since Teleports & Scrying negate a lot of need to move around and make you far more efficient at achieving your intended goals faster thus leaving you more leftover tools & time.


5) In what situation should a spell caster choose to use targeted dispel, or choose area dispel, or choose to target items? Which will be chosen first?

You have to identify your targets and their function first. Though with Chain, you just hit 'em first. Always hit items first since items generally protect the caster but not the other way around.

[shaikujin]

Well, it depends on what you mean by "against." The first spell that a wizard will cast in combat will probably be nervskitter, or a celerity if he thinks he can't win initiative (or sometimes, both). Then usually comes the Time Stop, which the spellcaster spends either buffing himself, summoning things that might help, or using shenanigans to debuff/attack the opponent. Ending with a readied celerity (normal or greater) and some way of killing the opponent or debuffing him his nice.

If by "against" you meant "what will be the first spell a wizard casts on an opponent," then yes, probably, unless he has sufficient reason to believe that he has an attack that the opponent can't defend against.

If an enemy has magic items or buffs up (detectable by arcane sight, Spot checks, etc.), it's probably worth it to cast either a disjunction or a chained greater dispel magic.

Against anything that obviously isn't going to be casting spells of its own (i.e. most monsters, non-casters), targeting the items is probably the safest bet. Against spellcasters, you want to hit their buffs first, so a targeted or area dispel, depending on what they have up/what you think they have up. Of course, disjunction lets you hit both, and you don't have to worry about targeting, so there's that.

Also, if I'm wrong, I should very much like to know what the correct tactic would be.

Very nice tactics! There are things that I've not considered at all.

If you were playing a 4 encounter/day campaign without knowledge of what monsters you will be coming up against, how many of each of these spells should a spellcaster prepare daily?

[Karnith]

Very nice tactics! There are things that I've not considered at all.

If you were playing a 4 encounter/day campaign without knowledge of what monsters you will be coming up against, how many of each of these spells should a spellcaster prepare daily?
I bow to the knowledge of a master, so I will defer you to Eldariel's answer. Given sufficient Pearls of Power/charged rods of absorption/similar things, though, you can probably get by with one or two chained greater dispel magic (and disjunctions, if you're a horrible person). Without access to those things, one per encounter.

EDIT: Also, sorry I missed that the first time around.

[Pickford]

To everyone but Karnith: I frankly don't have the time or care enough to game out 500+ fights, the theory works well enough for me. If you'd like to try it out, suggest to your DM that the next assassin sent after your mage be an equal level monk with full wbl, see if your survive with no punches pulled. (hah...no punch...ah whatever).


The lower-end HP values are his HP totals without the amulet of health on his person. The parentheticals are his hp totals with the amulet of health.

His hp is already calculated that way, even though I didn't write it out. Also, it only gives him a single extra hp (with average hp values), so it's not a huge deal.

Actually, so far as I can tell, the shapechange focus is not a magic item; it grants no benefits, and is not magic in and of itself, so it shouldn't interfere with the Headband of Intellect. It'll look silly before he shapechanges, but that's not a big deal.

Per the SRD on the good subtype:

I like your monk build, but a few issues that may come up, regarding a theoretical duel between Bob and Chip:
-That's a lot of gear in consumables; whereas Chip is a character I would actually play in a game (depending on op-level), Bob seems pretty focused on a duel. Not a big deal, since we are posing a duel scenario, but your character is pretty meta-gamed.
-You don't have Freedom of Movement, so a solid fog (etc.) is probably going to win Chip the duel (doesn't target, so spell turning etc. won't do anything; you can teleport out, but Chip has a bunch of them, and it weakens your defense against forcecage)
-Your grapple modifier isn't terribly high, and minus FoM Crushing Hand is probably going to grapple you to death (the "hand" spells don't target, so spell turning etc. won't do anything)
-Your strength score isn't very high, so Clenched Fist will bull rush you until you kill it (again, no target)
-Regeneration 15 and DR 15/epic and evil puts melee generally in Chip's court.
-Waves of Exhaustion will further tip the balance in Chip's favor (doesn't target)
-How do you reach Chip when he's flying/in the face of reverse gravity (again, mostly no save, no SR)?
-You don't really have a way to deal with miss chances or invisibility, as far as I can tell. How will you deal with Mirror Image/Displacement/Greater Invisibility?

General tips/other things:
-Since you have Timeless Body, there's really no reason not to just be venerable and get the +3 bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
-Freedom of Movement is invaluable at high levels, and the ring is only 40,000 gp.
-Lavender and Green Ioun stones require a readied action to absorb spell, so they're not the best at protecting you in combat.
-Partially-charged wands are a monk's best friend.

How do you see him in solid fog though? (Total Concealment past 5'?) That doesn't seem to actually achieve anything? I mean...why not just walk out normally while the opponent can't actually target you?

Yeah I was reflecting on the to-hit issue, might ditch the lavender ioun stone for a few magic weapons. I didn't bother with a permanancied magic fang because dispel magic would remove it, so it's too much money down the drain.

True on the crushing hand, I suppose a ring of freedom of movement is a good idea instead (auto-succeed on grapple checks) in lieu of the stone.

Yeah on the DR, that's why I figured the only way to kill him was using ki blast (bypassing DR completely)

As far as I can see the monk would be wise (hah) not to try and engage chip while flying, just throw ki blasts if chip comes within range otherwise stay under tree cover (which would provide a handy grip if reverse gravity ensues)

Same issue as with not having the to hit to damage chip in solar form (although I suspect that's more a problem with the solar than with chip per se) I think you may have the natural armor on the solar too low? I'm seeing it at 21, not 18

I didn't bother putting together feats so blindfight might not be bad <shrug>

Aging penalties...only wisdom is useful for a monk from the gained stats, but the lost stats are all useful -3 str, -3 dex, -3 con for +3 wis?

Totally agree on the ring/ioun stone swap.

Shaikujin:
I tend to play sorcerors/innate casters rather than prep casters so I've never run out of spells, but I'd think if you only have one preparation of chained dispel magic, greater then you can only really engage one magic character per day...if a sorceror, not as big a deal.

Disjunction grants a will save...so the monk who only has to beat a 7 on the roll is not in serious trouble (Plus it renders loot less valuable!)

The pesky use of magic items does give me some thought on revising: sunder or disarm magic items from the wizard (no pearls, no power, steal their book and run for quick loot :smallbiggrin:)

[Story]

The pesky use of magic items does give me some thought on revising: sunder or disarm magic items from the wizard (no pearls, no power, steal their book and run for quick loot :smallbiggrin:)

Again, you're mostly likely never going to get close enough to actually attempt an attack.


Anyway, if you stay on the ground and twiddle your thumbs, what's stopping the Wizard from just blasting away with Hail of Stones, or any of the many other spells that ignore cover and concealment?

[Eldariel]

How do you see him in solid fog though? (Total Concealment past 5'?) That doesn't seem to actually achieve anything? I mean...why not just walk out normally while the opponent can't actually target you?

You can use AOE there. You don't need to target the Monk. Or you can just summon your Solars or whatever.


True on the crushing hand, I suppose a ring of freedom of movement is a good idea instead (auto-succeed on grapple checks) in lieu of the stone.

Flight, True Seeing, Greater Fortifications, Freedom of Movement, Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone are absolute musts on these levels. Wizard will have them too (though only Freedom of Movement and Greater Fortifications from items; +1 Mithral Bucklet of Greater Forts to be precise).


Yeah on the DR, that's why I figured the only way to kill him was using ki blast (bypassing DR completely)

You can only launch one per round tho; that's way too long. You'll die 10 times over before it does significant damage. It only has 60' range too so it's trivial for a flier to stay out of reach in open areas; e.g. Wizard can Shapechange into a Dragon and breathe you to death (you'll fail saves eventually with nat. 1s - should at least have a Luckblade for rerolls), Beholder and stare you to death or whatever. Or just have Solar turn you into pincushion with that bow of Slaying.


As far as I can see the monk would be wise (hah) not to try and engage chip while flying, just throw ki blasts if chip comes within range otherwise stay under tree cover (which would provide a handy grip if reverse gravity ensues)

Worth noting that Tree only grants Partial Cover:
"A creature standing in the same square as a tree gains a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves (these bonuses don’t stack with cover bonuses from other sources)." (DMG page 87)

Even full cover; Wizard can move around just fine, as can his Projected Image, Gated creatures or whatever. It's not plausible to stay in complete cover for long outside very specific terrain. You'll have to be able to defend against a flying enemy (even in adventuring; Dragon isn't gonna land for you to beat it up).


Aging penalties...only wisdom is useful for a monk from the gained stats, but the lost stats are all useful -3 str, -3 dex, -3 con for +3 wis?

Timeless Body removes aging penalties.


The pesky use of magic items does give me some thought on revising: sunder or disarm magic items from the wizard (no pearls, no power, steal their book and run for quick loot :smallbiggrin:)

Requires getting next to the Wizard. Spellbook will be in extradimensional space anyways; not feasible to target. Same probably goes to most important items. Rods and Ioun Stones are plausibly targetable but if you could truly get to a position to affect them, you should worry about the Wizard who's about to end your existence instead.

[Greenish]

Aging penalties...only wisdom is useful for a monk from the gained stats, but the lost stats are all useful -3 str, -3 dex, -3 con for +3 wis?Click the smiling face, and all shall be revealed: :smallfurious::smallfrown::smalleek::smallsmile: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#monkTimelessBody):smallannoyed::smallmad: :smallsigh:

[Rejusu]

To everyone but Karnith: I frankly don't have the time or care enough to game out 500+ fights, the theory works well enough for me. If you'd like to try it out, suggest to your DM that the next assassin sent after your mage be an equal level monk with full wbl, see if your survive with no punches pulled. (hah...no punch...ah whatever).

Then the DM would just laugh and say that wouldn't really be a challenge. And again the fact you won't even game out one or two shows a lack of conviction in your argument. The fact you're arguing you'd need 500 fights to determine a winner also proves this as it shows doubt that the Monk would win either of the first few fights.


How do you see him in solid fog though? (Total Concealment past 5'?) That doesn't seem to actually achieve anything? I mean...why not just walk out normally while the opponent can't actually target you?

How many times do we have to go over this? Assuming a 20th level Wizard won't have special senses (or can't buff himself with such) is just a flat out ridiculous assumption that isn't even worth entertaining. Nevermind the fact that there's plenty of spells which ignore concealment/cover.


As far as I can see the monk would be wise (hah) not to try and engage chip while flying, just throw ki blasts if chip comes within range otherwise stay under tree cover (which would provide a handy grip if reverse gravity ensues)

A) Assuming there is a tree.
B) Assuming the tree is inflammable.
C) Again ignoring spells that ignore concealment/cover.
D) Even if this were to stop the Monk losing, he still has no chance of victory if he remains ground-locked.


Aging penalties...only wisdom is useful for a monk from the gained stats, but the lost stats are all useful -3 str, -3 dex, -3 con for +3 wis?

Now this is just funny, because now you've gone from ignoring the Wizards capabilities to ignoring the Monks. Timeless body means that a Monk doesn't accrue penalties from ageing, they only get the bonuses.


Disjunction grants a will save...so the monk who only has to beat a 7 on the roll is not in serious trouble (Plus it renders loot less valuable!)

Grants a will save... per item. With a 35% chance of failure (based on you saying they only have to beat a 7) and a high number of magic items odds are the Monk will be losing some of them.


The pesky use of magic items does give me some thought on revising: sunder or disarm magic items from the wizard (no pearls, no power, steal their book and run for quick loot :smallbiggrin:)

Again, based on the assumption you can get close enough to the Wizard to even attempt this.

[Story]

Wizard will have them too (though only Freedom of Movement and Greater Fortifications from items; +1 Mithral Bucklet of Greater Forts to be precise).

You can also get Greater Fortification by having all 4 Heart of X spells up. Heart of Air and Heart of Fire are usually a waste, but at high levels, you might as well just have them all up 24/7.

[shaikujin]

Monsters? The enemy you fear is other spellcasters; monstrous (e.g. Outsiders, Liches, Ethergaunts, Dragons, etc.) or humanoid. There's no stronger spell against them and indeed, it's probably impossible to defeat them without dispelling them. Also, magic items are hugely powerful (as all these threads prove) so being able to disable a number of them easily vindicates Chained Dispel Magic.

The fact that they also wreck mundanes who rely on magic items is pure plus; honestly, as these threads should prove, it doesn't take very much effort or many spells from a caster's arsenal to defeat mundanes, even ones specifically built for the challenge. You build your strategies against the greatest foe (other high level casters) with enough leeway to defeat anything else you might need to.



Depends. How many magic items does it have (your Arcane Sight should let you find out)? What monster is it (your Knowledge checks should let you find out)? Purple Worm; you probably just Hold Monster/Dominate Monster/Ray of Stupidity/whatever it.

It's really not an adversary worth respecting anyways; destroy its mind and the body will fail. Dragon? Yeah, Dispel Magic is a really powerful tool, though one that has to be applied with care in face of the creature's own magic (Contingency, Teleport, reflective Battlemagic Perceptioned Counterspell & the like).



You identify enemies with Knowledges, Arcane Sight/True Seeing/etc. and Divinations if necessary (preferably days before engaging, researching your target crypt/fortress/whatever and the guardians/enemies you're facing as well as any hostile factions). Identifying enemies based on them flying without wings is for dumb people.



A couple. What have your Divinations told you? How many can you afford? 3-4. Pearls of Powers and Metamagic Rods help. You still need your offense but Dispels are a critical tool.

Though high level magic changes the very nature of an adventuring "day" tremendously since Teleports & Scrying negate a lot of need to move around and make you far more efficient at achieving your intended goals faster thus leaving you more leftover tools & time.



You have to identify your targets and their function first. Though with Chain, you just hit 'em first. Always hit items first since items generally protect the caster but not the other way around.



Thanks, that's very detailed!

I think dispel magic and similar effects is definitely one of the most devastating effects on non casters who have limited/no ways to defend/re-establish their magical support.


If you'd indulge me further, can you explain to me about Chained Dispel Magic? The spell description says it affects creatures, but it does not mention objects unlike Dispel Magic. How do I get Chained Dispel Magic to also affect magic items?


Should spell casters with arcane sight on their spell list pay the XP for Arcane Sight to be permanence'd, or is it better to simply prepare 3-4 per day? Or use some magic item?


How many Contingency, Teleport, reflective Battlemagic Perceptioned Counterspell, True Seeing, Divination, Teleport, Scry would it be optimal to prepare for a normal 4 encounter adventuring day?

Esp divination, since a smart spell caster that likes to be prepared in advance can use it to optimize his spell selection.

With divination, is it a good idea to leave any spell slots open to quickly prepare for any unforeseen'd situations that may arise?

What's the best way to phrase a question for divination to get the most out of it? If you were a DM, what would you tell your players?

How many pearls of power and metamagic rods would it be prudent to carry?

[Eldariel]

You can also get Greater Fortification by having all 4 Heart of X spells up. Heart of Air and Heart of Fire are usually a waste, but at high levels, you might as well just have them all up 24/7.

Aye, I was mostly listing the Core options for simplicity; you can get FoM too with Heart of...Water? But even in Core, those are trivially available for Wizard without having to burn your Shapechange form on it.

Point being, anything that relies on restricting movement, or on grapple, criticals (e.g. Stunning Fist, Sneak Attack or Quivering Palm), breathing or any such is largely obsolete on high levels unless you have the means to disable such defenses (Dispel Magic, Disjunction, Anti-Magic Field, take your pick; Wizard can use them all the best of course, especially with Mastery of Shaping to use AMF to shut peoples' **** down without affecting yourself; not as good as back when it blocked line of effect for spells but still useful to make your Move actions lethal).

[Eldariel]

If you'd indulge me further, can you explain to me about Chained Dispel Magic? The spell description says it affects creatures, but it does not mention objects unlike Dispel Magic. How do I get Chained Dispel Magic to also affect magic items?

I'm referring to Greater Dispel Magic affected by Chain Spell [Complete Arcane] metamagic, rather than the deceptively similarly named Chain Dispel Magic spell. This allows hitting up to Caster Level targets and for targeted Greater Dispel Magic, that's a fancy number indeed.


Should spell casters with arcane sight on their spell list pay the XP for Arcane Sight to be permanence'd, or is it better to simply prepare 3-4 per day? Or use some magic item?

Permanencying it is the easy way but annoyingly vulnerable to Dispelling. However, if you're a high level Wizard, you can cast it at Caster Level 26 in Core (Beads of Karma + Orange Prism Ioun Stone + Archmage Spell Power) or around 30-40 (as desired) out of Core (Ring of Arcane Might, Robe, there's a bunch of CL buffs in MiC alone & Ring of Enduring Arcana from Complete Mage to add +4 to Dispel DCs); that makes it somewhat hard to Dispel outside dedicated dispellers (they can hit +40 and higher Dispel checks however so they're scary).

It has a fairly short duration to cast it multiple times. Persistent Spell is one option and of course, just casting it before you go in or having it Quickened but generally you don't want to waste actions on such a basic tool. Some magic items exist, but again, it's probably cheaper to just use Permanency.


How many Contingency, Teleport, reflective Battlemagic Perceptioned Counterspell, True Seeing, Divination, Teleport, Scry would it be optimal to prepare for a normal 4 encounter adventuring day?

Depends. Battlemagic Perception is a great spell; you want one, you might want more. True Seeing? Eh, use Greater Prying Eyes or something and Scroll it for when you really need it; it has an expensive material component. Teleports, a couple. Contingency, you can only have one in effect, but recast it once you've used it. Craft Contingent Spell [Complete Arcane] allows creating more Contingencies though so there's that.

Contact Other Plane and similar can be cast spontaneously with Spontaneous Divination; otherwise, use your lower level slots you don't need that many of for one-two and use "Divination days" (days when you prepare a bunch of them) when necessary to do in-depth research on a target.


Esp divination, since a smart spell caster that likes to be prepared in advance can use it to optimize his spell selection.

With divination, is it a good idea to leave any spell slots open to quickly prepare for any unforeseen'd situations that may arise?

Usually, if you can afford it, one highish level open slot is always a good idea. More so if you have Uncanny Forethought [Exemplars of Evil] or similar to spontaneously cast spells without preparation there.


What's the best way to phrase a question for divination to get the most out of it? If you were a DM, what would you tell your players?

Depends on what you need to know. This goes beyond the scope of basic advice. General rule of thumb, be precise (especially when it comes to the time the question is concerning and such), and formulate your question so that it can be answered with the allowed form of answer ("Yes/No" for Commune, "One word" for Contact Other Plane, etc.).

An example of a simple technique to locate something with Commune; first figure out which plane it's on with yes/no questions ("Is it on the Material Plane or any of its coterminous planes?"; if not "Is it on the Inner Planes?"; if not "Is it on the Outer Planes?", etc. and when you find out the category, go deeper) and then take a map of said plane (provided it's possible), split it in half and ask "Is it on the side of the plane described by this side of the map?" and keep splitting it up until you have a reasonably close read. Since you get CL castings per Commune, it's fairly cheap (or free with summoned/called dominated creatures as a medium) to cast a bunch of them. If you need something like this fast, remember that (Limited) Wishes can replicate such spells. Wish only has a cast time of Standard Action so if you need something now, burn the XP.


How many pearls of power and metamagic rods would it be prudent to carry?

As many as possible, of course. Great tools but you want other things too. They're basically what you sink the rest of your money into after covering the essentials (stat boosters, blessed book, extradimensional containers, Freedom of Movement , Fortifications, Heward's Fortifying Bedrolls [MiC], Caster Level Boosters appropriate for the level, etc.).

[shaikujin]

I'm referring to Greater Dispel Magic affected by Chain Spell [Complete Arcane] metamagic, rather than the deceptively similarly named Chain Dispel Magic spell. This allows hitting up to Caster Level targets and for targeted Greater Dispel Magic, that's a fancy number indeed.



Permanencying it is the easy way but annoyingly vulnerable to Dispelling. However, if you're a high level Wizard, you can cast it at Caster Level 26 in Core (Beads of Karma + Orange Prism Ioun Stone + Archmage Spell Power) or around 30-40 (as desired) out of Core (Ring of Arcane Might, Robe, there's a bunch of CL buffs in MiC alone & Ring of Enduring Arcana from Complete Mage to add +4 to Dispel DCs); that makes it somewhat hard to Dispel outside dedicated dispellers (they can hit +40 and higher Dispel checks however so they're scary).

It has a fairly short duration to cast it multiple times. Persistent Spell is one option and of course, just casting it before you go in or having it Quickened but generally you don't want to waste actions on such a basic tool. Some magic items exist, but again, it's probably cheaper to just use Permanency.



Depends. Battlemagic Perception is a great spell; you want one, you might want more. True Seeing? Eh, use Greater Prying Eyes or something and Scroll it for when you really need it; it has an expensive material component. Teleports, a couple. Contingency, you can only have one in effect, but recast it once you've used it. Craft Contingent Spell [Complete Arcane] allows creating more Contingencies though so there's that.

Contact Other Plane and similar can be cast spontaneously with Spontaneous Divination; otherwise, use your lower level slots you don't need that many of for one-two and use "Divination days" (days when you prepare a bunch of them) when necessary to do in-depth research on a target.



Usually, if you can afford it, one highish level open slot is always a good idea. More so if you have Uncanny Forethought [Exemplars of Evil] or similar to spontaneously cast spells without preparation there.



Depends on what you need to know. This goes beyond the scope of basic advice. General rule of thumb, be precise (especially when it comes to the time the question is concerning and such), and formulate your question so that it can be answered with the allowed form of answer ("Yes/No" for Commune, "One word" for Contact Other Plane, etc.).

An example of a simple technique to locate something with Commune; first figure out which plane it's on with yes/no questions ("Is it on the Material Plane or any of its coterminous planes?"; if not "Is it on the Inner Planes?"; if not "Is it on the Outer Planes?", etc. and when you find out the category, go deeper) and then take a map of said plane (provided it's possible), split it in half and ask "Is it on the side of the plane described by this side of the map?" and keep splitting it up until you have a reasonably close read. Since you get CL castings per Commune, it's fairly cheap (or free with summoned/called dominated creatures as a medium) to cast a bunch of them. If you need something like this fast, remember that (Limited) Wishes can replicate such spells. Wish only has a cast time of Standard Action so if you need something now, burn the XP.



As many as possible, of course. Great tools but you want other things too. They're basically what you sink the rest of your money into after covering the essentials (stat boosters, blessed book, extradimensional containers, Freedom of Movement , Fortifications, Heward's Fortifying Bedrolls [MiC], Caster Level Boosters appropriate for the level, etc.).

Great info :D

Thanks for taking the effort to quote the sources too, much obliged.

I sometimes play chess against myself to see what strategies would be best in different situations. I'm trying to see if I can do something similar to see how better I can play up to the strengths of spell casters and also melee characters.

For divination, I was thinking something along the lines of "What would be the most advantages spells for me to prepare for each day of the coming week?"

Is this a legit question to ask you think?

But my DM didn't prepare that far in advance or is just winging it, or do not know how fast the party can go through the encounters, it's difficult for him to answer as well.

He's probably going to be a bit vague and just say "mainly melee monsters supported by a couple of spell casters"

[Eldariel]

For divination, I was thinking something along the lines of "What would be the most advantages spells for me to prepare for each day of the coming week?"

Is this a legit question to ask you think?

It's fairly common for high optimization Wizards to use the Spontaneous Divination [Complete Champion] to convert all remaining spell slots to Contact Other Plane in the evening before preparing spells to ask "Which spell would be the most efficient spell for me to prepare in my Xth slot on Xth level with regards to the challenges I'm facing tomorrow?" generally specifying abbreviations for long spell names in the question.


But my DM didn't prepare that far in advance or is just winging it, or do not know how fast the party can go through the encounters, it's difficult for him to answer as well.

He's probably going to be a bit vague and just say "mainly melee monsters supported by a couple of spell casters"

That's a problem with inexperienced DMs. It's possible for him to e.g. let you switch to the optimal spell in situation based on the answer you would've gotten had he thought it that far or beforehand; giving you the answer when he knows the answer OOC and playing as if your character got the answer IC when it was given to him by the game is one way.

Oh and Battlemagic Perception is from Heroes of Battle; forgot to mention.

[Spuddles]

Here is how all 500 rounds go.

Surprise round: wizard is not surprised. He notices monk thanks to greater arcane sight- our wizard hates creatures without spellcasting with a passion and attacks them on sight. Wizard casts celerity.

Celerity round. Wizard casts Gate 5 times (via scroll if he's not allowed to use xp) to call 5 Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) to surround monk.

Free action in 5th round of Time Stop- turn into beholder.

First round of actual combat- wizard has a +35 initiative (+2 dex, +20 moment prscience, +4 imp init, +4 familiar/racial sub level, +5 nerveskitter). Monk in AMF bubble has maybe +16 (+8 dex, +4 imp init, +4 two more feats). Monk goes first what, 10% of the time? But more likely 0%, as a monk in an AMF is not likely to have 26 dex and have burned three feats on init.

Wizard looks on in disdain as Monk gets pounded by 5 CR31 monsters.

Anyway, I'd like to see what you think you can accomplish in the 5 to 10% of rounds where you get to act.

[Pickford]

Here is how all 500 rounds go.

Surprise round: wizard is not surprised. He notices monk thanks to greater arcane sight- our wizard hates creatures without spellcasting with a passion and attacks them on sight. Wizard casts celerity.

Celerity round. Wizard casts Gate 5 times (via scroll if he's not allowed to use xp) to call 5 Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) to surround monk.

Free action in 5th round of Time Stop- turn into beholder.

First round of actual combat- wizard has a +35 initiative (+2 dex, +20 moment prscience, +4 imp init, +4 familiar/racial sub level, +5 nerveskitter). Monk in AMF bubble has maybe +16 (+8 dex, +4 imp init, +4 two more feats). Monk goes first what, 10% of the time? But more likely 0%, as a monk in an AMF is not likely to have 26 dex and have burned three feats on init.

Wizard looks on in disdain as Monk gets pounded by 5 CR31 monsters.

Anyway, I'd like to see what you think you can accomplish in the 5 to 10% of rounds where you get to act.

Edit: Shaikujin, if you're literally talking about the spell 'Divination'...that's not on a wizard spell list, were you burning a limited wish to cast it? Also, answers are always in the form of riddles.

Ok I'll play one:

The monk has a spot modifer of +33 (+10 wis, +23 from ranks in spot), he sees the wizard (with a lousy wisdom and spot being a cc skill) who has a spot modifier of +6. As such, the monk sees the wizard first and, out of combat, is able to act first. (out to upwards of 330', the wizard is unaware until the distance is ~60'), consequently spell turning is already active on the monk.

Though the wizard cannot be surprised or flatfooted, the same cannot be said for his gear.

The monk is able to charge (240' out) and sunder the wizard's ring of freedom of movement. Sunder requires a melee attack roll, the AC of the ring is 13 + dexmod of the wizard (in this case +8) so 21 AC. Of course, this is automatically overcome by the +20 AB, but I'll roll a d20 to see if I crit. (nope, just a 5). Anyway, that hits the ring dealing 2d10+4 damage (rolled 2 and 8 + 4 = 14 damage) this overcomes the hardness and hp of the ring destroying it.

Karnith, you're obviously now aware of the existence of the monk and we roll initiative. (Note: You can't use the power of Foresight to cast celerity as the monk strictly did 'not' attack the wizard, but rather just an item :D)

Roll initiative:
hah! (20) + 9 for 29 total.

edit: We can just do this in two posts if you like, editing each round in.

[Karnith]

How do you see him in solid fog though? (Total Concealment past 5'?) That doesn't seem to actually achieve anything? I mean...why not just walk out normally while the opponent can't actually target you?Well, minus Freedom of Movement, the main goals of solid fog are first to make sure that your opponent can't target you with anything while you're doing your thing, and second to delay them (a 5 feet movement speed is pretty slow) so you can set things up for the actual fight.

Same issue as with not having the to hit to damage chip in solar form (although I suspect that's more a problem with the solar than with chip per se) I think you may have the natural armor on the solar too low? I'm seeing it at 21, not 18
I have been editing Chip's stats as I see errors/as they are pointed out to me, so while the Solar's natural armor bonus is at 21 now, it may have been wrong before.

Also, at Chip's caster level, there are a bunch of different forms that work about as well as solar. If he sticks with the shapechange, then change shape shtick he's on now, then Titan and Planetar both work fine. If he decides he's done with that, then he would probably roam around as a Pit Fiend or a dragon or something. And honestly I prefer dumb things like Choker if restricted to core, and things like Dire Tortoise or Chronotyryn outside of core.

Alternatively, if you meant that as a comment about shapechange being stupid, then yeah, it is. It's pretty much the best defensive spell you have in core. I could make his defenses about as dumb without using shapechange, if I worked at it (and upped the optimization level), but if shapechange is on the table there's no real reason not to use it.

System mastery stuffEldariel, since you're in the thread and fielding questions about high-level wizard tactics anyway, what do you recommend a high-level wizard use his low-level spell slots for?

Better yet, I'll start a separate thread so this one doesn't get further de-railed.

[Carth]

To everyone but Karnith: I frankly don't have the time or care enough to game out 500+ fights, the theory works well enough for me.


It's already been done, though. Not only was there the Test of Spite arena, but this has also played out at real tables for years, since 3rd edition in fact. You see people coming on to forums complaining about and asking how to fix casters breaking their games far more often than you do mundanes. When you see people talking about trying to fix casters, they're always talking about nerfing them, when you see people trying to fix monks, they're talking about buffing them. This is for good reason. You're basically trying to argue academically that team A is better than team B despite the fact that team B's historical victory record is so overwhelming superior that it makes arguments moot, at some point you need to simply yield to the results produced in reality.

[Pickford]

It's already been done, though. Not only was there the Test of Spite arena, but this has also played out at real tables for years, since 3rd edition in fact. You see people coming on to forums complaining about and asking how to fix casters breaking their games far more often than you do mundanes. When you see people talking about trying to fix casters, they're always talking about nerfing them, when you see people trying to fix monks, they're talking about buffing them. This is for good reason. You're basically trying to argue academically that team A is better than team B despite the fact that team B's historical victory record is so overwhelming superior that it makes arguments moot, at some point you need to simply yield to the results produced in reality.

Fixing a players bad behavior is different than just killing them, there are more things to take into account than just what counters what.

[Greenish]

edit: We can just do this in two posts if you like, editing each round in.It might be easier if you did it on the PbP forum, where you can use the forum roller.

[Carth]

Fixing a players bad behavior is different than just killing them, there are more things to take into account than just what counters what.

That has nothing to do with the Test of Spite, which was strictly a pvp arena setting hosted on these forums. Where mundanes lost overwhelmingly. You can assume perfect, angelic, palatable players in every part of my post and my point still stands.

[Pickford]

It might be easier if you did it on the PbP forum, where you can use the forum roller.

What does pbp stand for? Also, how does the forum roller work?

[Seer_of_Heart]

Play by post, go look at the other parts of the forum, there is a system where you can enter code like 1d20+12 to automatically have a d20 rolled with a bonus of +12 added.

[Spuddles]

Edit: Shaikujin, if you're literally talking about the spell 'Divination'...that's not on a wizard spell list, were you burning a limited wish to cast it? Also, answers are always in the form of riddles.

Ok I'll play one:

The monk has a spot modifer of +33 (+10 wis, +23 from ranks in spot), he sees the wizard (with a lousy wisdom and spot being a cc skill) who has a spot modifier of +6. As such, the monk sees the wizard first and, out of combat, is able to act first. (out to upwards of 330', the wizard is unaware until the distance is ~60'), consequently spell turning is already active on the monk.

Though the wizard cannot be surprised or flatfooted, the same cannot be said for his gear.

The monk is able to charge (240' out) and sunder the wizard's ring of freedom of movement. Sunder requires a melee attack roll, the AC of the ring is 13 + dexmod of the wizard (in this case +8) so 21 AC. Of course, this is automatically overcome by the +20 AB, but I'll roll a d20 to see if I crit. (nope, just a 5). Anyway, that hits the ring dealing 2d10+4 damage (rolled 2 and 8 + 4 = 14 damage) this overcomes the hardness and hp of the ring destroying it.

Karnith, you're obviously now aware of the existence of the monk and we roll initiative. (Note: You can't use the power of Foresight to cast celerity as the monk strictly did 'not' attack the wizard, but rather just an item :D)

Roll initiative:
hah! (20) + 9 for 29 total.

edit: We can just do this in two posts if you like, editing each round in.

Foresight says "You are never surprised or flat-footed". A monk is charging towards a wizard that is detected via mindsight/lifesight, greater arcane sight, and true seeing. The wizard is also invisible, flying, and incorporeal. As an immediate action Celerity. Oh hey monk doesnt get to act.

[Greenish]

What does pbp stand for? Also, how does the forum roller work?These here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3) are the Play by Post subforums, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100917) is how you use the forum dice roller (note that it only works in the PbP subforums).

[ArcturusV]

Plus I thought the general rule was that if an item is worn, equipped, held, etc, it used the defenses of the person holding/wearing/equipping it, OR it's natural defenses, whatever is higher. Least when you're talking about things like Sundering equipment.

Though I may be remembering it wrong. At the very least it doesn't make sense for some AC 5 object that is being worn by some AC 43 creature to be easy to hit.

[Greenish]

Plus I thought the general rule was that if an item is worn, equipped, held, etc, it used the defenses of the person holding/wearing/equipping it, OR it's natural defenses, whatever is higher. Least when you're talking about things like Sundering equipment.

Though I may be remembering it wrong. At the very least it doesn't make sense for some AC 5 object that is being worn by some AC 43 creature to be easy to hit.Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character.

[ArcturusV]

Shows how much it comes up in my games....

[Greenish]

So, 26 AC (since the ring is definitely fine sized), but of course Chip has Foresight running, so no surprise round.

And even if these level 20 characters are just randomly derping around in a forest, I don't see why the wizard wouldn't be up in the air. Anyway, sight rules are sort of weird, but unless the monk was trying to hide (-20 penalty to the check for charging, I seem to recall), wizard would probably automatically see him.

[Eldariel]

So, 26 AC (since the ring is definitely fine sized), but of course Chip has Foresight running, so no surprise round.

And even if these level 20 characters are just randomly derping around in a forest, I don't see why the wizard wouldn't be up in the air. Anyway, sight rules are sort of weird, but unless the monk was trying to hide (-20 penalty to the check for charging, I seem to recall), wizard would probably automatically see him.

I'm betting Monk doesn't qualify for hiding at this point; he doesn't exactly have Hide in Plain Sight or whatever.

[Greenish]

I'm betting Monk doesn't qualify for hiding at this point; he doesn't exactly have Hide in Plain Sight or whatever.Yeah, there's that too. And while Chip (being core only) has no Celerity, he does have Prying Eyes to spot the monk from distance.

[Pickford]

So, 26 AC (since the ring is definitely fine sized), but of course Chip has Foresight running, so no surprise round.

And even if these level 20 characters are just randomly derping around in a forest, I don't see why the wizard wouldn't be up in the air. Anyway, sight rules are sort of weird, but unless the monk was trying to hide (-20 penalty to the check for charging, I seem to recall), wizard would probably automatically see him.

Actually the ring's AC comes from the DMG. I added the dex bonus to it.

And Foresight applies to attacks against the targeted 'creature'. Foresight was not cast on the ring, so there is no benefit from it. Rules lawyering yes, but such is life.

edit: What did Chip tell the prying eyes to trigger return from the monk? Monks don't look dangerous right being dressed in robes, so presumably they wouldn't trigger even a request to return upon seeing something dangerous.

[Spuddles]

Actually the ring's AC comes from the DMG. I added the dex bonus to it.

And Foresight applies to attacks against the targeted 'creature'. Foresight was not cast on the ring, so there is no benefit from it. Rules lawyering yes, but such is life.

Foresight doesn't apply to attacks, period. It modifies a state of the caster. In this case, it means the caster is never flat footed. You could waste your turn attacking a tree or masturbating- the wizard still isnt surprised, he isn't flat footed, and he still gets celerity.

As far as rules lawyering goes, did your monk make sure to spend the feat on unarmed weapon proficiency? ;)

[Greenish]

And Foresight applies to attacks against the targeted 'creature'. Foresight was not cast on the ring, so there is no benefit from it. Rules lawyering yes, but such is life.Well, even if we don't count a monk sundering your items to attack you a "impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell", there's still the part about never being surprised or flat-footed (for which it doesn't matter if you're attacked or not).

And anyway, that only becomes relevant if we ignore couple of Chip's listed defenses, namely, flight and prying eyes.

[Story]

Did you stat out the Monk you're using? Did you remember to take Improved Sunder?

Anyway, even if you do somehow have a way to get past the flight, invisibility, and foresight, I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by sundering a ring other than mildly annoying the Wizard. Maybe you'll even convince him to bother using spells on you instead of just obliterating you as a Balor or something.

[Greenish]

Did you stat out the Monk you're using? Did you remember to take Improved Sunder?He did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14905593&postcount=160), and he didn't, but that doesn't matter much (other than wizard beating his face in melee that much faster) since the AoO doesn't prevent the sunder.


Anyway, even if you do somehow have a way to get past the flight, invisibility, and foresight, I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by sundering a ring other than mildly annoying the Wizard. Maybe you'll even convince him to bother using spells on you instead of just obliterating you as a Balor or something.I think he's going for grapple or something.

[Edit]: He didn't bother to pick feats or the like, but with Imp. Grapple he'd have the score of 26 vs. the wizard's 18. So, not exactly automatic victory, but eh.

[Big Fau]

Actually the ring's AC comes from the DMG. I added the dex bonus to it.

And Foresight applies to attacks against the targeted 'creature'. Foresight was not cast on the ring, so there is no benefit from it. Rules lawyering yes, but such is life.

Who cares? So the ring itself is flatfooted, the person wearing it isn't. And he's going to prevent you from doing a damn thing to his ring (or anything else that could hurt him) by flying off or something similar (possibly Dimension Dooring 200ft into the air while Overland Flight is active, allowing him to remain safely out of your reach).

[Pickford]

Foresight doesn't apply to attacks, period. It modifies a state of the caster. In this case, it means the caster is never flat footed. You could waste your turn attacking a tree or masturbating- the wizard still isnt surprised, he isn't flat footed, and he still gets celerity.

As far as rules lawyering goes, did your monk make sure to spend the feat on unarmed weapon proficiency? ;)

:smallamused: No, because according to the RAW in the glossary unarmed strikes are those made without weapons. Thus no weapon proficiency is required.

edit: Greenish: I also didn't bother giving him feats then, so I suppose I should do that before we actually 'roll' for anything else.

edit2: Spuddles, it's a question of awareness, the difficulty for seeing someone further than 60' is too much for the wizard to actually pass, hence the monk can spot the wizard from 240' out and then charge. Though the wizard is not surprised (it's not a surprise round) and not flatfooted, the monk isn't attacking the wizard but an inanimate object 'not' protected by the foresight spell. (The spell strictly is limited to protecting the wizard or the creature touched, not objects).

Edit for feats:
H:Power Attack
1st: Weapon Finesse
1st Monk1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1st Monk2: Stunning Fist
2nd Monk: Fiery Fist
3rd: Combat Expertise
6th monk: Ki Blast
6th: Improved Sunder
9th: Eagle Claw Attack
12th: Improved Disarm
15th: Improved Grapple
18th: Sun School

[Story]

I think he's going for grapple or something.


That's what I figured too, though I'm not sure why he's even bothering against an enemy that can change size to Colossal or go incorporeal as a free action.


Edit: Ironically enough, Solars do have Improved Sunder. Though Wizards are at least smart enough not to pointlessly destroy their walking loot.

[Greenish]

Greenish: I also didn't bother giving him feats then, so I suppose I should do that before we actually 'roll' for anything else.It's funny that you go for magic items before you even bother sorting out your class features. Tells something about monk, doesn't it? :smallwink:


Spuddles, it's a question of awareness, the difficulty for seeing someone further than 60' is too much for the wizard to actually pass, hence the monk can spot the wizard from 240' out and then charge.You're still ignoring Prying Eyes and flight.

[ArcturusV]

Is it just me, or does it sound like Pickford's tactics are based entirely on an obtuse, and wrong, reading of the Spot skill and misreading of Hide? I mean you need cover to hide in. The duel was set up as a "Flat, featureless plane" last I recall. Doesn't matter how horrible your spot modifier is, the rules presume you can spot someone with no cover unless they have Hide in Plain Sight.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

:smallamused: No, because according to the RAW in the glossary unarmed strikes are those made without weapons. Thus no weapon proficiency is required.

Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) is a Simple Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleWeapons) with which Monks are not proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons).

Also, not that it much matters but:

Kalaska'Agathas: Actually they function just like the spell. So no verbal, no dice. (Supernatural sometimes don't provoke AoO...but that depends on what it's doing)

[Citation Needed]

I think you will find that they do not function just like the spell, and consequently have no verbal, somatic, or other components (these are components of spells, which supernatural abilities are not).

[Kazyan]

The duel was set up as a "Flat, featureless plane" last I recall.

A flat, featureless plane for an arena duel is rather skewed in a wizard's favor. Classes that take advantage of external factors are denied them, the wizard can nova, and he can be perfectly tailored to the combat. What that says about the wizard class's strengths is up to you to decide.

[Flickerdart]

A flat, featureless plane for an arena duel is rather skewed in a wizard's favor. Classes that take advantage of external factors are denied them, the wizard can nova, and he can be perfectly tailored to the combat. What that says about the wizard class's strengths is up to you to decide.
If need be, a 20th level wizard is more than capable of reducing any terrain type to a flat, featureless plain.

As for nova, a 20th level wizard has more than enough spell slots to burn them carelessly and still go through the daily number of encounters assumed by the system with ease.

[Eldariel]

That's what I figured too, though I'm not sure why he's even bothering against an enemy that can change size to Colossal or go incorporeal as a free action.

Does it really matter? Wizard isn't flat-footed thanks to Foresight so he can take an immediate action. When the unannounced Monk comes next to him, Wizard casts Celerity, turn into Choker as a free action for extra standard action, Time Stop, True Casting + Maximized Maw of Chaos. Second turn, Forcecage, Quickened Dimension Lock (with Rod of Greater Quicken Spell). Ready action to cast a second Forcecage if the Forcecage is dispelled in any way.

Monk is in an invisible cage of force taking 120 damage a turn (and rolling DC31 Will save vs. Daze; damage happens with or without) unless he has at least 32 Spell Resistance (in which case there's 5% chance of it failing assuming no caster level boosts or spell penetration feats), and unable to use dimensional abilities (though the cage extends to Ethereal anyways).


Alternatively, Wizard casts Gate and calls in a Great Wyrm Red Dragon which proceeds to full attack. +49 attacks for Bite/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail iteration at Power Attack for 10 or something, +17 Strength (accounting for PA +27 Bite, +18 Claws & Wings, +35 Tail = 134 strength bonuses) and 4d8+2*4d6+2*2d8+4d6 = average 18+2*14+2*9+14 = 78. Assuming Dragon doesn't roll any 1s on attack rolls, Monk takes 212 damage.

[Greenish]

The duel was set up as a "Flat, featureless plane" last I recall.I don't think the duel is yet set anywhere. No starting conditions have been agreed on, the wizard is missing Contingency and Prying Eye search pattern details, the monk is missing feats and skills, and so forth, and so forth.


Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) is a Simple Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleWeapons) with which Monks are not proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons).Let's not go there in this thread.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Let's not go there in this thread.

I wouldn't have, had it not been brought up.

[Karnith]

I don't think the duel is yet set anywhere. No starting conditions have been agreed on, the wizard is missing Contingency and Prying Eye search pattern details, the monk is missing feats and skills, and so forth, and so forth.
Just as a general comment, if anyone is expecting me to play out the duel because Chip is my character, I have neither the time nor, to be frank, the inclination to actually play out a duel at present. Anyone else can feel free to set it up and play it out with Chip, if they want (and I'll be happy, because it will mean that Chip finally got out of his office), but I'm going to pass on this one.

[Pickford]

Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) is a Simple Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleWeapons) with which Monks are not proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons).

Also, not that it much matters but:


[Citation Needed]

I think you will find that they do not function just like the spell, and consequently have no verbal, somatic, or other components (these are components of spells, which supernatural abilities are not).

PHB pg 314: unarmed attacks are attacks made without a weapon in hand; unarmed strikes is a blow made without a weapon in hand.

Unarmed strikes aren't weapons according to the text and wherever there is disagreement text always trumps tables according to wotc which makes unarmed strikes not weapons rules as written.

It's spell-like abilities that have no components (PHB 180), For the supernatural, If it's cast as the spell the spell includes verbal components so pinned and no speak is no cast.

Greenish: I'm not ignoring Prying eyes, it wasn't listed as being cast (and even if it had you have to give specific instructions on what it is to look for).

And flight wasn't declared. However, if you want to represent Chip (Karnith having declined), the rolls thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14910106#post14910106). According to the rolls I did Chip won initiative by 2 after the ring was destroyed, your action. (If you decline, anyone else care to volunteer?)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

PHB pg 314: unarmed attacks are attacks made without a weapon in hand; unarmed strikes is a blow made without a weapon in hand.

Unarmed strikes aren't weapons according to the text and wherever there is disagreement text always trumps tables according to wotc which makes unarmed strikes not weapons rules as written.

The Player's Handbook lists "Strike, Unarmed" on page 121, which does not list whether the weapon is Simple, Martial, or Exotic. It does, however, refer to table 7-5 (found on page 116) which clearly lists Unarmed Strike as a Simple Weapon. The text does not disagree with the table, and therefore the table is RAW. Consequently, by strict RAW (your "rules lawyering," as it were) the Monk is not proficient with their Unarmed Strikes.


It's spell-like abilities that have no components (PHB 180), For the supernatural, If it's cast as the spell the spell includes verbal components so pinned and no speak is no cast.

I suppose I should have been more clear in my request - where does it say that supernatural abilities function as spells?

[Greenish]

Greenish: I'm not ignoring Prying eyes, it wasn't listed as being cast (and even if it had you have to give specific instructions on what it is to look for).

And flight wasn't declared.Are we talking about the same character? I'm referring to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14904451&postcount=158), which clearly lists both flight and prying eyes (in an admittedly vaguely worded search pattern) on the "noteworthy defenses already up".


However, if you want to represent Chip (Karnith having declined), the rolls thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14910106#post14910106). According to the rolls I did Chip won initiative by 2 after the ring was destroyed, your action. (If you decline, anyone else care to volunteer?)I'll give it a pass. I'm not that familiar with the character, with high level play, with full casters, or with Shapechange and Disjunction shenanigans.

[Story]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the Shapechange rules either. I suppose I could try one without Shapechange, but then I'd have to make my own build.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's spell-like abilities that have no components (PHB 180), For the supernatural, If it's cast as the spell the spell includes verbal components so pinned and no speak is no cast.

Abilities only require components if they specifically state they do, and only spells do that; neither spell-like nor supernatural abilities require components, because they aren't spells. The SLA desciption mentions that they have no components because it's clarifying that when it says "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name" the just like the spell part doesn't include components.

Tome of Magic 139 (which clarifies and supersedes the PHB and DMG descriptions) states this as well, by saying that SLAs "are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components" (which means that supernatural abilities, by virtue of also not being spells, have no components either) and giving a table showing that supernatural abilities lack components.

[Story]

Dweomerkeeper also clarifies that it's Su ability uses no components.

Anyway, I find it interesting that having failed to beat a level 3 Wizard, Pickford decides that he'll have better luck at level 20.

[Thunndarr]

I'm curious why we're framing this discussion as if the monk is out to kill the wizard (and the wizard, unless forewarned by spells, is unaware.)

How does the scenario change if it's the wizard who is actively trying to kill the monk? Does the monk have any defense? If not, doesn't this pretty much end the discussion? Monk can *maybe, but not likely* take down an unaware wizard, wizard can always take down unaware monk?

[ArcturusV]

Pretty much. I mean the most powerful weapon in a Wizard's arsenal is really time. If he's the initiator, a wizard is never going to engage in such a way the monk even stands a ghost of a chance.

If the monk is the aggressor, for some reason, is the only way he succeeds. And only if the wizard is caught completely unprepared and not taking basic precautions that Pickford is generally presuming a wizard wouldn't. Like just walking completely unaware in a situation where people have enough cover to sneak right up on the wizard without them being able to act at all. Especially when said wizard has easy means of flying in open skies where it can see it's enemy's coming from a mile away.

[Thunndarr]

Pretty much. I mean the most powerful weapon in a Wizard's arsenal is really time. If he's the initiator, a wizard is never going to engage in such a way the monk even stands a ghost of a chance.


Doesn't this pretty much end the discussion?

[Greenish]

Doesn't this pretty much end the discussion?Heh, do you think we'd have monkday if the "discussion" was that easy to end? :smallamused:

[Thunndarr]

As a side note, my current wizard has been the target of numerous assassination attempts, resulting in him developing a healthy sense of paranoia. Thus, he specifically has chosen spells dealing with escape and survivability. This isn't even meta-gaming, it's completely in character. I wouldn't find it at all unlikely that a wizard would prepare the "help me live through the day spells" as his first priority.

Also, my particular wizard actually *would* be suspicious of meeting a robed figure as a random encounter, and *would* assume that the robed fellow was a potential foe. That's how wizards get to 20th level.

[ArcturusV]

You'd think so. But someone is going to point out that a Monk has easily negated SR, or good Saving Throws, and say that because of it the Wizard cannot be guaranteed victory because the Monk will just resist/save and thus the ambush advantage is negated...

... and THAT'S where this discussion tends to start.

Someone points out that a Wizard can just open up with stuff where SR or Saves don't matter. Then they'll say something like the monk is wearing an AMF on a Stick/Pendant or something. To which someone might point out that various Orb of X spells and such don't actually get negated by that. To which they'll mention they have Spell Turning Rings. Which don't actually work in an AMF... so they'll switch out the AMF for spell turning...

And it just goes on from there.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Heh, do you think we'd have monkday if the "discussion" was that easy to end? :smallamused:

You know, this is why I have such a hard time believing the Wizard is unprepared. Surely they, with their massive intellects, have noticed that Monks have a quixotic tendency to attack Wizards towards the beginning of the week?