LGBTAitp #32: The Great Plushie Invasion!

[Chess435]

Hello to all, and I'm honored to see you enter the thirty-second incarnation of the queerest, rainbow-colored, extra-friendly corner of the Playground, the LGBTAitp thread!

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTAitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormativity.

Please note that although the title of the thread names only the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Asexual communities, it is intended as an all inclusive environment.


Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)



Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the previous threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTAitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192714)

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200329)

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207987)

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11820872#)

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219966)

LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223792)

LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227182)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12613347)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233833)

LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236828)

LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239610)

LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13243754)

LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249030)

LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253352)

LGBTAitP 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256951)

LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14110484#post14110484)

LGBTAitP #29: The Rainbow Outreach Program (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262926)

LGBTAitP 30: Free Cuddles (Enquire Within) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267638)

LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272099)



And, for reference, here is the Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitp Words and Phrases

Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG: Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer
Allies: Straight people that support equality for sexuality and gender minorities.
MtF: Male-to-Female: A woman born with male nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans woman)
FtM: Female-to-Male: A man born with female nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans man)
GQ: Genderqueer.
CS: Cis-sexual: sex and gender match (a male with male nibblies, a female with female nibblies.
TS: Transsexual: Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. not very common.
VF: Vocal Feminization: The practice of achieving a natural sounding feminine voice without surgery.
VFS: Vocal Feminization Surgery: As VF, but with the addition of surgery.
AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth
FAAB/MAAB: Female/Male Assigned at Birth.


Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between male and female.
Agendered: Someone who feels neither male nor female.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to two genders (usually men and women, sometimes transgender instead of one of those).
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)






Relevant: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2487/3938872888_906fba4ba2.jpg

[Karen Lynn]

*noms new thread*

Yay~

Because I must!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/powergamer88/eevee-set.jpg

Edit edit: I'm happy. Name change on forum went through~

[Selpharia]

Hi new thread! I'm still here reading, I'll try to find time to participate more.

~Laura

[Absol197]

Hi new thread! I'm posting in you to get the check mark so I can follow you more easily! Also, because I love you and all your denizens!

And so it doesn't get lost in the turnover between thread incarnations, here was my post from the very end of the last one:
Oh dear, you've done it now :smalltongue: !

Spoilered for very off-topic:
The school I go is called the Chinese Shao-lin Center. As for styles, we learn basically al the Chinese styles. An abbreviated list is:

External and Animal Styles:
Northern Fist
Southern Fist
Whirling Palm
Tiger (of the Flying, Golden, White, and Black variety)
Crane (various styles; I only know a little White)
Snake (Golden Snake is the highest-level style of our school - only our grandmaster knows it)
Leopard (various styles thereof)
Dragon (various)
Eagle Claw
Praying Mantis (various styles)
Monkey (various)
Shao-lin bird
Eight Drunken Immortals
Hua Mountain Fist
...and a bunch of others that I've forgotten :smalltongue:

Internal Styles:
Tai Chi (Yang, Chen, and Wu styles)
Pa Kua (Classical, all 8 animals, and others likely)
Hsing-I (5 elements, 12 animals, and probably others)
Meteor fist (I don't really know much about this one)

Weapons:
Staff
Single/Double nunchaku
Short stick
Chinese broadsword
Straight sword
Spear
Kwan Tao
Three-sectional staff
Sai
Tiger-hook swords
TaMo canes
Butterfly swords
The various, crazy-looking Pa Kua weapons
...A bunch of other random ones that are less common.

So, yeah...we learn a lot of different styles. The one that I'm working on perfecting and getting to a useful level of competence right now is my drunken style :smalltongue:



<_<
>_>

I knew that...



Hi Bianca!

And yay for good therapists! I'm glad you've finally found someone who works for you! And this was in a different post of yours, but yay for getting introduced as yourself :smallsmile: !



I was just testing you :smallbiggrin: ! Well, it's two more pony shirts than I have, so comparatively it's a very large and varied collection.



Aaand, saved :smallbiggrin: . Thanks for those! They will be very helpful! I have a good friend (the first one I talked to about my gender issues, actually) who is a master at make-up-ery, but she's very busy, so I haven't been able to meet up with her for a day of experimentation. So now I'll take matters into my own hands!


~Phoenix~[/QUOTE]



*noms new thread*

Yay~

Because I must!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/powergamer88/eevee-set.jpg

Edit edit: I'm happy. Name change on forum went through~

O_O I must has those plushies! Also, yay for name changes!


~Phoenix~

EDIT: Also - HI LAURA!!! WE'VE MISSED YOU!!! *glomps and huggles!*

[Lentrax]

Hello, everyone!

Love you all!

Cake for everyone!

[Chess435]

Hello, everyone!

Love you all!

Cake for everyone!

Plushies and cake, this thread is already amazing! :smallbiggrin:

[monkyman640]

Hi new thread! I'm posting in you to get the check mark so I can follow you more easily! Also, because I love you and all your denizens!

Checkmarks for everyone! *goes back to lurking*

[TaiLiu]

Plushies and cake, this thread is already amazing! :smallbiggrin:
Needs more rice.

[SiuiS]

*noms new thread*

Yay~

Because I must!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/powergamer88/eevee-set.jpg

Edit edit: I'm happy. Name change on forum went through~

Cool on the name change; I didn't even register it, I was just trying to figure out what Karen's avatar was when I saw her quoted XD

Umbreon! So cute.


It's been on this site for ages. I started New Year's Eve in December 2011 on that site.

Huh. I've only ever been linked to dA as I recall.


Oh dear, you've done it now :smalltongue: !

Spoilered for very off-topic:
The school I go is called the Chinese Shao-lin Center. As for styles, we learn basically al the Chinese styles. An abbreviated list is:

External and Animal Styles:
Northern Fist
Southern Fist
Whirling Palm
Tiger (of the Flying, Golden, White, and Black variety)
Crane (various styles; I only know a little White)
Snake (Golden Snake is the highest-level style of our school - only our grandmaster knows it)
Leopard (various styles thereof)
Dragon (various)
Eagle Claw
Praying Mantis (various styles)
Monkey (various)
Shao-lin bird
Eight Drunken Immortals
Hua Mountain Fist
...and a bunch of others that I've forgotten :smalltongue:

Internal Styles:
Tai Chi (Yang, Chen, and Wu styles)
Pa Kua (Classical, all 8 animals, and others likely)
Hsing-I (5 elements, 12 animals, and probably others)
Meteor fist (I don't really know much about this one)

Weapons:
Staff
Single/Double nunchaku
Short stick
Chinese broadsword
Straight sword
Spear
Kwan Tao
Three-sectional staff
Sai
Tiger-hook swords
TaMo canes
Butterfly swords
The various, crazy-looking Pa Kua weapons
...A bunch of other random ones that are less common.

So, yeah...we learn a lot of different styles. The one that I'm working on perfecting and getting to a useful level of competence right now is my drunken style :smalltongue:


Any meteor hammer or nine section chain?

[Karen Lynn]

Shiny Eevee...

[TaiLiu]

Oh dear, you've done it now :smalltongue: !

Spoilered for very off-topic:
The school I go is called the Chinese Shao-lin Center. As for styles, we learn basically al the Chinese styles. An abbreviated list is:

External and Animal Styles:
Northern Fist
Southern Fist
Whirling Palm
Tiger (of the Flying, Golden, White, and Black variety)
Crane (various styles; I only know a little White)
Snake (Golden Snake is the highest-level style of our school - only our grandmaster knows it)
Leopard (various styles thereof)
Dragon (various)
Eagle Claw
Praying Mantis (various styles)
Monkey (various)
Shao-lin bird
Eight Drunken Immortals
Hua Mountain Fist
...and a bunch of others that I've forgotten :smalltongue:

Internal Styles:
Tai Chi (Yang, Chen, and Wu styles)
Pa Kua (Classical, all 8 animals, and others likely)
Hsing-I (5 elements, 12 animals, and probably others)
Meteor fist (I don't really know much about this one)

Weapons:
Staff
Single/Double nunchaku
Short stick
Chinese broadsword
Straight sword
Spear
Kwan Tao
Three-sectional staff
Sai
Tiger-hook swords
TaMo canes
Butterfly swords
The various, crazy-looking Pa Kua weapons
...A bunch of other random ones that are less common.

So, yeah...we learn a lot of different styles. The one that I'm working on perfecting and getting to a useful level of competence right now is my drunken style :smalltongue:
Exciting! Is it a 'taste of each style' or a 'master them all' sort of thing?

[TaiLiu]

Shiny Eevee...

Oo, name change! That's certainly a Shiny!

[Mono Vertigo]

I NEED THAT UMBREON.
*squees*

[SiuiS]

I NEED THAT UMBREON.
*squees*

INORITE?!



Ugh. Rain is just the right level of cute and soap opera to be fun. But it's having side effects. Damn work. Just wanna go home and sleep for like, EVER.

[Heliomance]

That's really wonderful.:smallsmile:
I hope I can gain the courage to express my fluid gender identity in public.
I don't have many friends in the Real World and I don't know how they'd react if I showed up to D&D in a skirt.
How does the playground recommend getting experience with the art of tasteful deception, i.e. makeup? I want to look somewhat natural as opposed to say, drag queen.

Now I'm confused. I thought you were FAAB. Anyway, the two most important skills to learn are how to shave really well, and how to use foundation. I thoroughly recommend an old-fashioned double edged safety razor for shaving - gets you a better shave than modern cartridge razors, and is a hell of a lot cheaper, too. Personally I'm fond of Astra Superior Platinum blades. For price comparison, I got a box of 100 blades on eBay for about £7, whereas a packet of 8 Gillette Fusion blades costs about £25.

I'm told that proper barber-style straight razors give an even better shave, and have an ongoing cost of essentially zero, but the relatively high cost of entry and the level of skill they require mean I haven't given it a try.

Once you've got those down, experiment with subtle makeup. Leave eyeshadow way the hell alone - I cannot work out how to use it without getting the drag queen effect. Mascara is really easy and quite subtle, and a black pencil eyeliner can also be good. Just don't go overboard.

I like lipstick now, but it took me a while to get the hang of it. I think mostly it goes back to your shaving and foundation skills - lipstick draws attention to your mouth area, so if there's any visible stubble or shadow there, it'll be more noticeable.

In more advanced techniques, I've started experimenting with blusher along my cheekbones, and I definitely like the effect it produces. Definitely makes my face a more feminine shape.

The other thing that can help a lot is hair. If you have long hair, bangs are one of the most immediately feminising styles there are. Whatever you do with the rest of your hair, let a thickish strand fall loose down each side of your face. It softens the whole shape, and it's extremely female-associated.


I do have the one notepad I haven't used for anything... *Considers doing that* X3



Oh my god that happens to me all the time! Stupid bit of skin that happens to be right on the jawline. >.<

(... Although on the plus side, I'm learning how to do eyeliner really quickly. I should start using it and lip gloss more often. X3 )


~Bianca
Arg, I hate that patch below the ear, just behind the jaw. So awkward to shave >_>

[Mono Vertigo]

If I tried to use makeup, I'd probably end up looking like a drag queen, too, and I'm a ciswoman.
But that's just because I'm that incompetent with makeup and uninterested to change that.
Anyway, huh, listen to Helio for femininity advice. It sounds good. *nods*

[Coidzor]

Using makeup well is definitely not as ubiquitous as it should be, especially relative to the ubiquity of using makeup.

When you see the transformation of someone doing it right though it's pretty amazing. Like those pictures of Melissa Murphy (http://instagram.com/xmelissamakeupx/)'s work.

[Eirala]

Once you've got those down, experiment with subtle makeup. Leave eyeshadow way the hell alone - I cannot work out how to use it without getting the drag queen effect. Mascara is really easy and quite subtle, and a black pencil eyeliner can also be good. Just don't go overboard.

I like lipstick now, but it took me a while to get the hang of it. I think mostly it goes back to your shaving and foundation skills - lipstick draws attention to your mouth area, so if there's any visible stubble or shadow there, it'll be more noticeable.

In more advanced techniques, I've started experimenting with blusher along my cheekbones, and I definitely like the effect it produces. Definitely makes my face a more feminine shape.

The other thing that can help a lot is hair. If you have long hair, bangs are one of the most immediately feminising styles there are. Whatever you do with the rest of your hair, let a thickish strand fall loose down each side of your face. It softens the whole shape, and it's extremely female-associated.


Arg, I hate that patch below the ear, just behind the jaw. So awkward to shave >_>

What she said. Just 2 things i'd like to add to that:

For me, a bit of eyeshadow works just fine. But i guess that depends on your type.

I also use blush and like the effect very much. Blush takes some practice, though. The area where you apply it is critical, and too much looks just ridiculous.

[noparlpf]

*noms new thread*

Yay~

Because I must!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/powergamer88/eevee-set.jpg

Edit edit: I'm happy. Name change on forum went through~

Congrats! Now just never change your avatar. I identify people by avatar most of the time.


Arg, I hate that patch below the ear, just behind the jaw. So awkward to shave >_>

That one is a bit annoying, yeah. Generally everything under the jaw is annoying just because it can't agree which direction it's going, but that might just be me.

[Socratov]

snip
Arg, I hate that patch below the ear, just behind the jaw. So awkward to shave >_>

Well, since I shave with a straight razor that patch has become ridicilously easy :smallredface: It's the part down at the neck that's annoying (though I notice how a really sharp razor has advantages over a slightly less sharp one).

Edit: before I forget: happy new thread! *throws firecrackers and confetti around*

[Lentrax]

I would imagine that shaving with a straight razor has other... unique problems when approaching the throat area.

I'd probably end up bleeding out on the bathroom floor.

[Urist]

I would imagine that shaving with a straight razor has other... unique problems when approaching the throat area.

I'd probably end up bleeding out on the bathroom floor.

Yup... Can't go near straight razors anymore after seeing Sweeney Todd more than strictly necessary.

[Mynxae]

Yup... Can't go near straight razors anymore after seeing Sweeney Todd more than strictly necessary.

Sweeney Todd, woo!

Sorry, I just love that movie. :smallbiggrin:

[SiuiS]

I would imagine that shaving with a straight razor has other... unique problems when approaching the throat area.

I'd probably end up bleeding out on the bathroom floor.

No, actually. The thickness of the skin, the nature of how a razor actually cuts, and the positioning of the vitals, you would have to be trying to do something like that. Both carotid and jugular are user enough other tissue that you'll freak out, drop the razor and freak out some more before doing any real damage while shaving.

Unless you're like, numb, or really fast. But I mean, you can hold a sword blade and spear a target without issue due to how cutting works. Casual pushing o edge onto skin won't start peeling you without you knowing WAAAAY fast.



Anyhoo. I think I had a depressive dyspepsia episode today, but it might have been a normal depressive episode instead – or all mg depressive episodes are dysphoric? I can't tell any more. But I hate Rain and her damned bein pretty as successful and such. And envy of a comic character is pretty new.

[Karen Lynn]

Ummm... I liked Rain... Made me feel more hopeful than angry or upset...

[Urist]

Sweeney Todd, woo!

Sorry, I just love that movie. :smallbiggrin:

The movie is wonderful, indeed. Who ever knew Johnny Depp could sing? However, I'm instead referring to the three seperate shows in the last year I've seen of friends productions of the musical; one of which was fantastic, and the other two were passable. Although, Judge Turpin in one show got a nasty concussion from improper handling of a trapdoored barbers chair, which was really unfortunate, as it happened on opening night. The poor stage manager had to get the constume refitted for the next show, and to learn to sing an octave lower than he normally was capable of... :smallamused:

[Socratov]

Sadly I did not love the movie, I liked the idea of the movie, I like the actors playing in it, I just don't like to be interrupted constantly by songs...

but yeas, You'll feel when you cut yourself with a straight razor (a pulling/tearing sensation on the skin), and the cuts have more chance to appear on the face itself (you shave your neck under a smaller angle then your face, decreasing the risk of cutting).

but then again, it's a real great excercise to steady your hand.

[Mina Kobold]

Hurrah for new thread! I shall properly hug it and bake it cookies when I finish being busier than a Monkey-bee with school. :smallsmile:


*noms new thread*

Yay~

Because I must!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/powergamer88/eevee-set.jpg

Edit edit: I'm happy. Name change on forum went through~

Agablah. Plushies. @_@

Congrats on the name change! ^_^


Ummm... I liked Rain... Made me feel more hopeful than angry or upset...

Me too, it is a very fun comic, though I constantly get worried for the characters. So much potential drama! D:

On an unrelated note: I really have an urge to get back into knitting and sewing recently. I also have images of everybody as a plushie (Including adorable black square Nope)... Oh well, probably just random thoughts. :3

[The Succubus]

@Kevak - I put a pledge in for this on Kickstarter. It reminds me of you for some reason I can't quite put my finger on.....

Kobolds Ate My Baby (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/9thlevel/kobolds-ate-my-baby-in-color)

[Lentrax]

No, actually. The thickness of the skin, the nature of how a razor actually cuts, and the positioning of the vitals, you would have to be trying to do something like that. Both carotid and jugular are user enough other tissue that you'll freak out, drop the razor and freak out some more before doing any real damage while shaving.

Unless you're like, numb, or really fast. But I mean, you can hold a sword blade and spear a target without issue due to how cutting works. Casual pushing o edge onto skin won't start peeling you without you knowing WAAAAY fast.

You underestimate my incredibly high levels of terrible luck. It wouldn't be anything I try and do. It would probably be something like one of my kids hitting me in the back of the leg causing my hand to jerk, or some kind of really over complicated Final Destination scene.

I'll stick with my electric razor, thank you very much.

[Asta Kask]

Yay! New thread!

...

I need to cut my hair. I look like a cross between a mushroom and Beethoven.

[Kneenibble]

Budgie hugs for the new thread and all its denizens!
http://24.media.tumblr.com/a4f4e6f40021bb3111053f910d37b7a7/tumblr_mjnfo054AC1r6hdpno1_500.jpg




Yay! New thread!

...

I need to cut my hair. I look like a cross between a mushroom and Beethoven.

:smallbiggrin: This is a look you ought to cultivate, in my opinion.

[Asta Kask]

It turns into "street bum" or "terrorist" within a month, though.

[Kneenibble]

Reclaim & own it! Call it "the Merlin." He mostly went around in the guise of a hobo-terrorist.

[Asta Kask]

I look like Low Cat from Red Dwarf.

The guy on the left. Except I'm white.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120315121856/reddwarf/images/9/9d/Lowdwarf.jpg

[WarKitty]

*Plushifies self*

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SUPER-CUTE-Black-cat-plushie-15-long-green-eyed-toy-plushy-NEW-soft-lankey-deep-/00/s/MzU3WDQwMA==/$(KGrHqV,!q8E-ZPC)TqEBPvZnzmCsw~~60_35.JPG

Advice from Goth Kitty for those learning to use makeup:
(1) Youtube is your friend. Seriously, look things up. There's even stuff aimed specifically at trans women.
(2) Put makeup on right before you take a shower. That way if it looks terrible you were going to take it off anyway.
(3) Buy a brush set. They're much easier than the applicators that come with products, and you can get a decent set at the drugstore for $5-$10.
(4) The closer makeup is to your skin tone, the more forgiving it is of mistakes. Powders are also generally more forgiving than liquids. High-contrast colors will show ANY mistake you make, so be careful with them. (Black lipstick still takes me 20min to get looking right, because the contrast is so high that any tiny slip shows. Pink, however, I can put on without a mirror and look fine.)
(5) Less neat makeup always looks better than more messy makeup. That said, don't be afraid to experiment.
(6) It takes a couple of years to fully master makeup products. So don't give up - even us cis women took quite some time to learn.

[Kneenibble]

I look like Low Cat from Red Dwarf.

The guy on the left. Except I'm white.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120315121856/reddwarf/images/9/9d/Lowdwarf.jpg

Funny you should post that, because I look a lot like Low Rimmer.

I'm going to whip you to within an inch of your life... and then I'm going to have you.

[Asta Kask]

I think low Rimmer would fit this thread perfectly.

[Mina Kobold]

@Keveak - I put a pledge in for this on Kickstarter. It reminds me of you for some reason I can't quite put my finger on.....

Kobolds Ate My Baby (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/9thlevel/kobolds-ate-my-baby-in-color)

But I am reptilian and only eat adult non-draconids... '>_>



I need to cut my hair. I look like a cross between a mushroom and Beethoven.

That sounds adorable, though I can see how it may not fit you. ^_^'


Budgie hugs for the new thread and all its denizens!
http://24.media.tumblr.com/a4f4e6f40021bb3111053f910d37b7a7/tumblr_mjnfo054AC1r6hdpno1_500.jpg

*Hugs all the budgies back*

Hiya, Kneenibble! :smallsmile:


*Plushifies self*

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SUPER-CUTE-Black-cat-plushie-15-long-green-eyed-toy-plushy-NEW-soft-lankey-deep-/00/s/MzU3WDQwMA==/$(KGrHqV,!q8E-ZPC)TqEBPvZnzmCsw~~60_35.JPG

Adorable! X3


*Plushifies self*

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SUPER-CUTE-Black-cat-plushie-15-long-green-eyed-toy-plushy-NEW-soft-lankey-deep-/00/s/MzU3WDQwMA==/$(KGrHqV,!q8E-ZPC)TqEBPvZnzmCsw~~60_35.JPG

Advice from Goth Kitty for those learning to use makeup:
(1) Youtube is your friend. Seriously, look things up. There's even stuff aimed specifically at trans women.
(2) Put makeup on right before you take a shower. That way if it looks terrible you were going to take it off anyway.
(3) Buy a brush set. They're much easier than the applicators that come with products, and you can get a decent set at the drugstore for $5-$10.
(4) The closer makeup is to your skin tone, the more forgiving it is of mistakes. Powders are also generally more forgiving than liquids. High-contrast colors will show ANY mistake you make, so be careful with them. (Black lipstick still takes me 20min to get looking right, because the contrast is so high that any tiny slip shows. Pink, however, I can put on without a mirror and look fine.)
(5) Less neat makeup always looks better than more messy makeup. That said, don't be afraid to experiment.
(6) It takes a couple of years to fully master makeup products. So don't give up - even us cis women took quite some time to learn.

Those are all very good tips. Wish I could get make-up, but I am not sure my parent would allow that. Accursed live-with-family-till-mid-twenties culture! >_<

[noparlpf]

Anyhoo. I think I had a depressive dyspepsia episode today, but it might have been a normal depressive episode instead – or all mg depressive episodes are dysphoric? I can't tell any more. But I hate Rain and her damned bein pretty as successful and such. And envy of a comic character is pretty new.

*hugs*
She's a cartoon character. She looks great because you fill in the lack of details as looking great. And she does have lots of drama, so that's not fun.


It turns into "street bum" or "terrorist" within a month, though.

"Street bum" looks a lot like "professor" though, and people generally respect those. Just wear Hawaiian print shirts.

[Arachu]

The notepad didn't really help much with the sleeping... It was neat to use, though. So far I just filled a page with some dysphoria-related angst, but I'll probably have ideas and stuff on other nights.

I've decided to start carrying it around as a combination diary/note-taking thingy. If anybody reads it for whatever reason, it won't have anything particularly secret anyways. :smalltongue:


It just takes practice and a bit of patience to shave well. I have a guy friend who doesn't bother very often, and last time I visited my old school and saw him he had just shaved, so I pointed out the half-dozen patches he had missed in various places. The jawline is a bit awkward, but I pull that bit of skin up and then down to shave it instead of trying to work around the edge of the jawbone, which doesn't really work.

I've gotten in the habit of checking and re-doing it a couple of times, then checking again after giving my fingers a bit to un-de-sensitize and repeating again if necessary, then checking yet again on the way out to make certain.

It's pretty exhausting. >.<


Anyhoo. I think I had a depressive dyspepsia episode today, but it might have been a normal depressive episode instead – or all mg depressive episodes are dysphoric? I can't tell any more. But I hate Rain and her damned bein pretty as successful and such. And envy of a comic character is pretty new.

*Hugs* I get kinda stressed out wishing I were that pretty. I do the same thing with clothing store mannequins. And the occasional movie character. And some people on the street. And some really cute guys (if I gotta look like a male, it'd at least be nice to look like a hot one)... >.>


*Plushifies self*

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SUPER-CUTE-Black-cat-plushie-15-long-green-eyed-toy-plushy-NEW-soft-lankey-deep-/00/s/MzU3WDQwMA==/$(KGrHqV,!q8E-ZPC)TqEBPvZnzmCsw~~60_35.JPG

Eeh. n.n


~Bianca

[noparlpf]

The notepad didn't really help much with the sleeping... It was neat to use, though. So far I just filled a page with some dysphoria-related angst, but I'll probably have ideas and stuff on other nights.

I've decided to start carrying it around as a combination diary/note-taking thingy. If anybody reads it for whatever reason, it won't have anything particularly secret anyways. :smalltongue:

Well, keep it nearby at night anyway, it might help over time. Maybe. If not, writing stuff helps you think about it. Also maybe.


The internet brings you messages about sexism (http://i.imgur.com/thowk.png) from the perspective of some trans lady I do not know. (You all know this stuff, I don't know what's the point of posting it, now I think of it. Ah well. Anyway you can save it and show it to other people, maybe.)

[TaiLiu]

Well, keep it nearby at night anyway, it might help over time. Maybe. If not, writing stuff helps you think about it. Also maybe.


The internet brings you messages about sexism (http://i.imgur.com/thowk.png) from the perspective of some trans lady I do not know. (You all know this stuff, I don't know what's the point of posting it, now I think of it. Ah well. Anyway you can save it and show it to other people, maybe.)

Huh. The perspective of that anecdote is very nice!

[Arachu]

Ooh, just remembered - does anyone have any links for stuff on voice training? I've gotten mine to resonate in my head, but it's still all baritone. >.<


~Bianca

[Karen Lynn]

http://www.youtube.com/user/letsflybutterfly

[SiuiS]

Ummm... I liked Rain... Made me feel more hopeful than angry or upset...

Don't get me wrong, I love it. But it's the one thing aside from a weeklong depression bender to actually get through my defenses.



The internet brings you messages about sexism (http://i.imgur.com/thowk.png) from the perspective of some trans lady I do not know. (You all know this stuff, I don't know what's the point of posting it, now I think of it. Ah well. Anyway you can save it and show it to other people, maybe.)

Hmm. Neat.
Had a chance to deal with something like that on the Xbox recently. It's amazing when you think about what people think is okay to say or do because someone else is female is ridiculous.

[Arachu]

http://www.youtube.com/user/letsflybutterfly

Thanks! *Loads one to watch at the house later~*


~Bianca (I'm feeling colorful today. :smalltongue: )

[monkyman640]

Ummm... I liked Rain... Made me feel more hopeful than angry or upset...

I just finished it. It was awesome. BUT NOW I HAVE TO WAIT FOR UPDATES!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[noparlpf]

I just finished it. It was awesome. BUT NOW I HAVE TO WAIT FOR UPDATES!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

It's pretty regular. Nearly every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

Right now I'm waiting impatiently for Toaru Kagaku no Railgun season two. Ah well.

[Eirala]

Ooh, just remembered - does anyone have any links for stuff on voice training? I've gotten mine to resonate in my head, but it's still all baritone. >.<


~Bianca

Also candiFLA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbaj4tIX1kw

BTW, what videos did you watch already? I'm also into voice training for ~1 month and you can never watch too many youtube videos ^_^

[Arachu]

Also candiFLA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbaj4tIX1kw

BTW, what videos did you watch already? I'm also into voice training for ~1 month and you can never watch too many youtube videos ^_^

I've actually not seen that many (I had slow Internet at my parents' place :smalltongue: ), but a few months ago I read a bit on it. I wasn't sure where to start, so I started with the property I had the most control over - resonance. At first I had some trouble getting it to go anywhere but my neck, but now I have to try to bring it down from head level. :smallbiggrin:

... Now all I have to do is change the thing I have the least control over (pitch), figure out a bunch of other things I don't fully understand and while I'm at it work on projection. I'm a quiet person. ^_^'


~Bianca

[Urist]

Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...

[Thajocoth]

Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...

It's a common issue in poly relationships. The best thing is very open communication, good scheduling, and communicating limits. A lot of the poly people I know use Google calendar to schedule who they're seeing when. I know one girl who once dated six other people at once, and was so overwhelmed, that she wasn't getting any of her own needs met, so there are plenty of pitfalls to watch for.

Good open honest communication is the most important part in making this successful. So don't pretend you're fine if you're not. Talk to your partner about your concerns & make sure they spend time with you too.

The most I've actually participated in was a triangle, so we'd all just hang out together, so it wasn't as difficult to manage as a V would've been, which is more like what your situation sounds like.

Good luck!

[ScionoftheVoid]

Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...

Well, kind-of sorta maybe? (I might be just close enough to offer something marginally useful.) My advice, as with most things in relationships, is to talk about it with the person to whom it's most relevant - your partner (in this case). If you have concerns, it's important that she knows about them. At the very least, her knowing that you might be jealous, and that it might show particularly in the initial stage of things, would help you both to deal with that if it does arise.

Jealousy was a tricky issue for me when I (thought I was) feeling it because while I realised it was a silly thing to feel, I also couldn't help feeling it and it was likely that nothing good could come of repressing it. My anxieties relaxed as the feelings I had thought were jealousy (I don't really know if they were, to be honest) quickly subsided, and could also be explained as other phenomena. If you end up having feelings of jealousy, they may not subside, in which case it's very worth discussing what is going to be done about that. It's probably worth discussing it before it comes up, really, but I wouldn't think it would be catastrophic if one didn't. Of course, if they do subside, or seem like they might have a solution, or if you never actually get them at all, that's great!

This has been based in the exceedingly little experience I have with any kind of non-platonic relationship (or perhaps more accurately "other than platonic", since it still definitely included friendship), and so should be taken with something approaching a fistful of salt and heavy confirmation involving other advice.

Also, hi~. *waves* Everyone who wants them may have hugs/other gestures of affection, I may give more specific greetings to people when/if I post again.

[Arachu]

*Hugs Scion~*


Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...

I'm in a pretty open one (or a lot I guess, if really close friends count :smalltongue:), but only online. I imagine it'd be more complicated in person... I'm pretty sure it's way easier if everyone's dating everyone else? Sorry if that's not helpful. *Hugs*


~Bianca

[Chess435]

*Hugs Scion~*



I'm in a pretty open one (or a lot I guess, if really close friends count :smalltongue:), but only online. I imagine it'd be more complicated in person... I'm pretty sure it's way easier if everyone's dating everyone else? Sorry if that's not helpful. *Hugs*


~Bianca

Yeah, sorta in the same boat with Mynx and Karen and all of you guys/gals I hang out with. (You know who you are) :smallamused: It's nice that everyone involved gets along. :smallbiggrin:

[Mynxae]

Yeah, sorta in the same boat with Mynx and Karen and all of you guys/gals I hang out with. (You know who you are) :smallamused: It's nice that everyone involved gets along. :smallbiggrin:

Very much so. Sometimes it can be overwhelming, but that's usually when Chessy is asleep, the lazy bugger! :smallannoyed:

[Karen Lynn]

Very much so. Sometimes it can be overwhelming, but that's usually when Chessy is asleep, the lazy bugger! :smallannoyed:

Yup. He's a meanie like that... :P

[TaiLiu]

Yup. He's a meanie like that... :P

Hey, everyone needs their respite...

[Karen Lynn]

I know. :D

[Chess435]

Very much so. Sometimes it can be overwhelming, but that's usually when Chessy is asleep, the lazy bugger! :smallannoyed:


Yup. He's a meanie like that... :P

I'm so lucky to have you guys. :smallredface:

[Hylleddin]

Holy Carp! I'm away for a few days getting a new computer set up and suddenly we're on the third page of a new thread!

[TaiLiu]

Holy Carp! I'm away for a few days getting a new computer set up and suddenly we're on the third page of a new thread!
Woosh! :smallcool:

[Astrella]

Anyhoo. I think I had a depressive dyspepsia episode today, but it might have been a normal depressive episode instead – or all mg depressive episodes are dysphoric? I can't tell any more. But I hate Rain and her damned bein pretty as successful and such. And envy of a comic character is pretty new.

Aw, that sucks. :c

-----

Also I found a few neat comics through a friends comments on reddit from an old women's magazine that were surprisingly queer / trans* positive:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4606/comic2h.jpg

This one's from the nineties.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5584/28140080.jpg

This one's from the late seventies.

And there's also a few with a trans* character. (http://imgur.com/a/haXwI)

[Mutant Sheep]

That poor father.:smallbiggrin: I too, would be confused at moddy and dammy. The acceptance at the end should be a much more common reaction.:smallsigh:
"Eat him at Christmas..." *chuckles weirdly at the silliness*

[Heliomance]

That's amazing! Nice to see some people can be accepting, even way back.

[SiuiS]

Aw, that sucks. :c

Aye, does.

Wish this thing would stop changing dysphoria to dyspepsia, too. It's similar enough I don't catch it on casual pass! Grrr.



Also I found a few neat comics through a friends comments on reddit from an old women's magazine that were surprisingly queer / trans* positive:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4606/comic2h.jpg

This one's from the nineties.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5584/28140080.jpg

This one's from the late seventies.

And there's also a few with a trans* character. (http://imgur.com/a/haXwI)

That's really, really cool, and the last one there gives me a bit of a warm spot about my own situation. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Mono Vertigo]

Yeah, that's an unusually positive comic. :smallsmile:
Looks like it comes from Netherlands or Belgium though, which doesn't surprise me as much, seeing how advanced both these countries are in LGBT matters compared to some other first-world countries.

Reminds me that my mother has two good friends, who are together. She is very open-minded, and so are her daughters from a previous marriage. They know about BF's situation, and are very supportive. They don't think it's a big deal at all.
He, however, still kinda mentally lives in the past. He knows I'm going out with someone, but he had no idea that he was my best friend (who he'd always thought was a girl) before. Basically, he keeps asking to his partner "Who is that guy? How did she meet him? He's not a [REDACTED], is he?".
Both my mother and his partner try to open his mind and prepare him to the reveal. He's concerned that I might have ended up with a bad boy (he's a bit paternal to me); it may reassure him to learn he already knows him and that he's as decent as he remembers him. At any rate, if he freaks out, he will be in the overwhelming minority.

[The Succubus]

Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...

I do believe we actually a couple of polyamorous folks on here, one of whom is in a delightfully stable three way relationship. My advice? Meet this person! There's a good chance you could make this work but it'll need all three parties to be honest with each other. You need to see the dynamic between your gf and her, she needs to see the dynamic between you and your gf. Then if your gf see that you and her can get along well with each other (note: "getting along well" is not the same as suggesting 3-person physical intimacy) then your gf will feel happy and comfortable.

Perhaps some fairly neutral activities to begin with - meeting up for a mid morning coffee somewhere so you can sound her out. Perhaps a day trip somewhere, doing touristy things. The real test would be spending time away together but if you think it can work, then I will hope for the best for you. :smallsmile:


That poor father.:smallbiggrin: I too, would be confused at moddy and dammy. The acceptance at the end should be a much more common reaction.:smallsigh:
"Eat him at Christmas..." *chuckles weirdly at the silliness*

I thought moddys were things that gave birth to forum bans? :smallconfused:

[SiuiS]

Reminds me that my mother has two good friends, who are together. She is very open-minded, and so are her daughters from a previous marriage. They know about BF's situation, and are very supportive. They don't think it's a big deal at all.
He, however, still kinda mentally lives in the past. He knows I'm going out with someone, but he had no idea that he was my best friend (who he'd always thought was a girl) before. Basically, he keeps asking to his partner "Who is that guy? How did she meet him? He's not a [REDACTED], is he?".
Both my mother and his partner try to open his mind and prepare him to the reveal. He's concerned that I might have ended up with a bad boy (he's a bit paternal to me); it may reassure him to learn he already knows him and that he's as decent as he remembers him. At any rate, if he freaks out, he will be in the overwhelming minority.

Hmm. That took a minute to process. So out of the couple, the lady half is fine but the lordy half is all "not sure if jackass or just something else"? Hopefully things work out. It sounds like it should, but honestly I think there's a good shot at him taking it poorly just because he's been in the dark and knows it. He's been constantly guessing at the secret and frustrated at making no progress; he will approach the revelation from an adversarial viewpoint.


I do believe we actually a couple of polyamorous folks on here, one of whom is in a delightfully stable three way relationship. My advice? Meet this person! There's a good chance you could make this work but it'll need all three parties to be honest with each other. You need to see the dynamic between your gf and her, she needs to see the dynamic between you and your gf. Then if your gf see that you and her can get along well with each other (note: "getting along well" is not the same as suggesting 3-person physical intimacy) then your gf will feel happy and comfortable.

Perhaps some fairly neutral activities to begin with - meeting up for a mid morning coffee somewhere so you can sound her out. Perhaps a day trip somewhere, doing touristy things. The real test would be spending time away together but if you think it can work, then I will hope for the best for you. :smallsmile:


I personally find nothing but the most general ideas to be worthwhile. Each person, and situation, is unique enough to warrant unique consideration. But mileage and variance an all.



I thought moddys were things that gave birth to forum bans? :smallconfused:

Warnings mostly. Stupidity births bannings, I hear. :smalltongue:

[Mono Vertigo]

Hmm. That took a minute to process. So out of the couple, the lady half is fine but the lordy half is all "not sure if jackass or just something else"? Hopefully things work out. It sounds like it should, but honestly I think there's a good shot at him taking it poorly just because he's been in the dark and knows it. He's been constantly guessing at the secret and frustrated at making no progress; he will approach the revelation from an adversarial viewpoint.
Yeah, that's it. I could have said "wife and husband" but they're not married, and "girlfriend and boyfriend" sound silly to me when it's a long-lasting relationship, and even sillier considering they're both over 50.
I'll freely admit we've been keeping in him the dark, but most of us know it's a problematic situation to begin with. We don't want him to react badly, or treat BF badly when he sees him in person again. But at the same time, the issue is not so much about informing him of the private status of one's genitals anymore, and more about reassuring him that he already knows that person and that he always liked his personality.
BF is kinda indifferent about this but he would admittedly enjoy not having to pretend he's a different person whenever he's present.
Now, if he doesn't react well, we can always cut ties with him. Would cause some issues, but that's better than dealing with someone clearly unsupportive.

[SiuiS]

Yeah, that's it. I could have said "wife and husband" but they're not married, and "girlfriend and boyfriend" sound silly to me when it's a long-lasting relationship, and even sillier considering they're both over 50.
I'll freely admit we've been keeping in him the dark, but most of us know it's a problematic situation to begin with. We don't want him to react badly, or treat BF badly when he sees him in person again. But at the same time, the issue is not so much about informing him of the private status of one's genitals anymore, and more about reassuring him that he already knows that person and that he always liked his personality.
BF is kinda indifferent about this but he would admittedly enjoy not having to pretend he's a different person whenever he's present.
Now, if he doesn't react well, we can always cut ties with him. Would cause some issues, but that's better than dealing with someone clearly unsupportive.

That's an interesting predicament. I would say that maybe you shouldn't tell him, except your beau doesn't want to have to pretend to be someone else when he's around. Yeah, that's weird. I do suppose convincing him he already knows would work, but the preparations for reveal might make the reveal harder.

[Mono Vertigo]

That's why the comic suddenly reminded me of it, with Hendrika's own situation, not telling right away where she knows the dad from.
BF rarely comes over (what with living in the neighbouring country), and therefore, it's my mother who tries to deal with that directly. He's never asked me directly yet about The Strange Case of the Spontaneously Generated Boyfriend, probably not to sound rude, but he does ask his significant other repeatedly, assuming (rightly) she talks about it with my mother. It's very much background stuff when I'm not staying at my mom's place, which is most of the time. It's true I should probably get a little more involved.

[Asta Kask]

Yeah, that's an unusually positive comic. :smallsmile:
Looks like it comes from Netherlands or Belgium though, which doesn't surprise me as much, seeing how advanced both these countries are in LGBT matters compared to some other first-world countries.

Are there any LGBTA smurfs?

[Partysan]

Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...
That's a typical issue that everyone developes their way of dealing with, but my personal advice would be this:

First, be an airport. What I mean by this is that your girlfriend will want to fly, which you obviously will let her do, but she will also need to land. A lover of some time makes for a great base haven. In the beginning of the new relationship the new person will often take up a bit more time than the established lover, which can make you feel a bit neglected. That's a phase though. See to it that you are available and that if you have very regular things you do together that these stay, so you'll still see each other with some frequency.
Second, if your girlfriend isn't too against it (which would be a flag on its own) get to know that other person. However, in the beginning don't neccessarily go out with both of them, as if you still have a bit of trouble dealing with jealousy it's very easy for someone getting less attention (as will happen if there's a new lover) in direct comparison to unintentionally act aggressively. That's not only going to harm your relationship but also put your girlfriend into a tight spot. If they ask you out you can of course go, but don't try to arrange a thrate right at the start.
Third, when things have settled down a bit and if you get along with the other girl you can start doing things as a group. If you three work well as a group it's all much easier than when your girlfriend is standing between two people fighting for her attention. She'll still have to divide her time between you two, but that's just how it is for us polies.

Now understand that this advice relies on certain assumptions which might or might not be true. I don't know the relationship dynamics between you and your girlfriend, which means that parts or all of my advice might not fit your situation.

Dealing with jealousy directly is mostly a two-step thing. First, realize that jealousy is a) stupid and b) counterproductive and harmful. I get it you have already come this far. The more important thing is to understand this so deeply, so it becomes a belief that you accept subconsciously. If you've done that, you won't feel jealousy in that special way anymore. My way to that point was to feel out the fact, example by example, that jealousy doesn't actually achieve anything positive for all the harm it does.
Jealousy is a bit hard to get rid of, because it's not all nurture. It's very easy to see why jealous impulses would have been evolutionarily useful, but it's an instinct that doesn't work anymore in a free society, even though our societies still try to propagate it.

[Mono Vertigo]

Are there any LGBTA smurfs?
AhahahahahaHAHAHahahah*cough*hah.
Erm, no, not to my knowledge, unless you want to think that the little guys had a sentimental life before the Smurfette.

[Asta Kask]

They seem mostly asexual I suppose. They don't seem to want to do Smurfette as much as date her. But they can just be polite, I suppose.

[Astrella]

This is really sweet. (http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1acio4/6_years_and_3_months_into_mtf_transition_and_this/)

[Asta Kask]

I'm so lucky to have you guys. :smallredface:

You are so lucky to have us all...

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFyHTU8tg_0)

[Lentrax]

Which brings us to my exercise program:

Bod by Zod. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMbiLJ2aZuY)

[Mynxae]

Which brings us to my exercise program:

Bod by Zod. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMbiLJ2aZuY)

Lentrax. Wut r u doin. Lentrax. STAHP! I can't stop laughing now. *giggles outrageously*

[Urist]

Wonderful advice stuff, along with the advice of much of the thread:

Thank you guys! Lots of great advice here. It, unfortunately, will be rather difficult to meet the other woman in this relationship, attends college in Pennsylvania, while I live in New Hampshire and will be attending college in Maine, and girlfriend is attending college in Massachusets. Breaks don't synchronize very well, sadly, which means that it will sometime in mid-May until I get to know the new party.

I love the metaphor of the airport, though. I can offer her a safe port in the storm, and, despite the fact that it makes me sad that she'll be spending less time with me, she'll also be happy. I don't want to put her in a cage; I want her heart to soar where it will, even if it sometimes flies away from me for a time.

[Lentrax]

Lentrax. Wut r u doin. Lentrax. STAHP! I can't stop laughing now. *giggles outrageously*

Totes sigging this.

[Chess435]

I thought moddys were things that gave birth to forum bans? :smallconfused:

Well, when a moddy and a dammy love each other very much....... :smallamused:


Which brings us to my exercise program:

Bod by Zod. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMbiLJ2aZuY)

Totally starting this program. :smalltongue: One before Zod, Two before Zod........


Lentrax. Wut r u doin. Lentrax. STAHP! I can't stop laughing now. *giggles outrageously*

Oh my, it seems you brought out his inner Australian. :smalltongue: I still need to get around to hearing Max giggle. :smallamused: *pulls out feather*

[Eirala]

This is really sweet. (http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1acio4/6_years_and_3_months_into_mtf_transition_and_this/)

Dawwwwww ^_^
Children can be so sweet.

[Asta Kask]

Oh my, it seems you brought out his inner Australian. :smalltongue: I still need to get around to hearing Max giggle. :smallamused: *pulls out feather*

Pull out feather out of Mynxae?

:smalleek:

I don't want to know.

[Mynxae]

Oh my, it seems you brought out his inner Australian. :smalltongue: I still need to get around to hearing Max giggle. :smallamused: *pulls out feather*

You've heard me giggle on Skype before. :smallannoyed:

[Chess435]

You've heard me giggle on Skype before. :smallannoyed:

By listen, I mean record it so I can hear it in a loop. :smallwink:

[Mynxae]

By listen, I mean record it so I can hear it in a loop. :smallwink:

Oh dear god. The horror. THE HORROR! :smalleek:

[Asta Kask]

Are you saying Mynxae's real name is Max?

[Chess435]

Are you saying Mynxae's real name is Max?

Oops. :smallredface:

[Asta Kask]

We can probably arrange a quick edit if you want. But Max is a fairly common name.

[Mynxae]

We can probably arrange a quick edit if you want. But Max is a fairly common name.

<.<
>.>
If we're going to be proper, it's Maxwell. Max for short.

[Asta Kask]

James Clerk Maxwell?

I thought you were Scottish. And dead.

[Mynxae]

James Clerk Maxwell?

I thought you were Scottish. And dead.

No. xD I was, er, named after Maxwell Smart. Blame my Dad. :smallannoyed:

[Asta Kask]

Ok.

*blames Mynxae's dad*

Can I blame him for everything or just for this?

[Lentrax]

Unless Mynxae also has a shoe phone I will also be blaming the father for the name.

[Mynxae]

Ok.

*blames Mynxae's dad*

Can I blame him for everything or just for this?

Just that. He's a good Dad, so don't be too harsh on him. :smalltongue:

[Arachu]

Does anyone know how gender discrimination laws in Illinois are? I'm not sure how to approach researching them, and it seems important to know...


Also I found a few neat comics through a friends comments on reddit from an old women's magazine that were surprisingly queer / trans* positive:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4606/comic2h.jpg

This one's from the nineties.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5584/28140080.jpg

This one's from the late seventies.

And there's also a few with a trans* character. (http://imgur.com/a/haXwI)

Those are neat. ^_^


This is really sweet. (http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1acio4/6_years_and_3_months_into_mtf_transition_and_this/)

*May need to check her eyeliner* :smalltongue: :smallsmile:


~Bianca

[The Succubus]

This is really sweet. (http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1acio4/6_years_and_3_months_into_mtf_transition_and_this/)

^_^

That is such a sweet gesture. She's a good kid.

[Akowrules]

Hey! New thread! Sorry about being gone, lots of things happened. Most of them alright though. Although my hands aren't. High bar decided to be a jerk and rip the skin off them today.

[Eldest]

Does anyone know how gender discrimination laws in Illinois are? I'm not sure how to approach researching them, and it seems important to know...

Here (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs5.asp?ActID=2266&ChapterID=64) is a link to what I believe is the text of the relevant law. This (http://www2.illinois.gov/dhr/Pages/default.aspx) is the website of the department of human rights in Illinois. Hope that helps.
*back to lurking*

[KenderWizard]

O hai, fast-moving-thread.



When you see the transformation of someone doing it right though it's pretty amazing. Like those pictures of Melissa Murphy (http://instagram.com/xmelissamakeupx/)'s work.

Wow, she's really good!

Make-up is tricky. I really wish it was a gender-neutral thing. I really like it, but I hate the sexist baggage that comes with it.



On an unrelated note: I really have an urge to get back into knitting and sewing recently. I also have images of everybody as a plushie (Including adorable black square Nope)... Oh well, probably just random thoughts. :3

Me too!! :D I'd love a black plushie cube Nope!



Also I found a few neat comics through a friends comments on reddit from an old women's magazine that were surprisingly queer / trans* positive:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4606/comic2h.jpg

This one's from the nineties.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5584/28140080.jpg

This one's from the late seventies.

And there's also a few with a trans* character. (http://imgur.com/a/haXwI)

Ahhhh! SO CUTE!!! :smallbiggrin:


Has anyone here had any experience with polyamory/open relationships? And if so, have any advice on dealing with jealousy? Girlfriend has confessed interest in another woman, which is totally fine to one part of me; I know she still loves me, and that it's not indicative that I'm not enough. At the same time, I'm concerned about time management, and the concern that the rush of a new relationship will overpower what we already share for a little while...

Oh man, I'm that girlfriend, except I haven't worked up the courage to tell my partner that I'd love a little fem on the side and I haven't worked up the courage to tell the girl I have these feelings for that I do and I'm pretty sure she's straight and argh!! >,<


Edit: Oh yeah, I came here to post this! Transgender kids and being smart about gender. (http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-03-15/some-transgender-kids-have-it-more-figured-out-than-the-rest-of-us/#more-3187788)

[The Succubus]

If I was seeing a bi girl, I'd be totally cool with her having a girlfriend as well. :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

This is really sweet. (http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1acio4/6_years_and_3_months_into_mtf_transition_and_this/)

That's adorable.

[Akowrules]

This is really sweet. (http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1acio4/6_years_and_3_months_into_mtf_transition_and_this/)

I never knew crying like a baby would ever make me feel good. That's so adorable, and I'm still crying!

[Coidzor]

Wow, she's really good!

Make-up is tricky. I really wish it was a gender-neutral thing. I really like it, but I hate the sexist baggage that comes with it.

I really wish I could find it again, but I recall hearing a very interesting quote about the power of a woman properly armed with makeup and the knowledge of how to use it.

I wouldn't mind knowing makeup myself, but that's mostly because I'm incredibly vain and am in love with the fantasy of the disguise and the mask, if my avatar hadn't already given that away.


Oh man, I'm that girlfriend, except I haven't worked up the courage to tell my partner that I'd love a little fem on the side and I haven't worked up the courage to tell the girl I have these feelings for that I do and I'm pretty sure she's straight and argh!! >,<

Caught between repression, awkward, and anticlimax. Argh, indeed. :smalleek:

[TaiLiu]

I really wish I could find it again, but I recall hearing a very interesting quote about the power of a woman properly armed with makeup and the knowledge of how to use it.

I wouldn't mind knowing makeup myself, but that's mostly because I'm incredibly vain and am in love with the fantasy of the disguise and the mask, if my avatar hadn't already given that away.

Huh. That isn't a book? :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

Huh. That isn't a book? :smallconfused:

Honestly I can't remember what the source was now. I'm just kicking myself for not remembering it exactly and being able to share it right now.

Well, punching, as kicking myself is hard.

[TaiLiu]

Honestly I can't remember what the source was now. I'm just kicking myself for not remembering it exactly and being able to share it right now.

Well, punching, as kicking myself is hard.

Ah. I thought it was symbolism for the loss of knowledge and the like.

[Coidzor]

Ah. I thought it was symbolism for the loss of knowledge and the like.

Thought what was symbolism? :smallconfused:

[noparlpf]

TaiLiu was saying that your avatar's mask looks like a book.

[Coidzor]

TaiLiu was saying that your avatar's mask looks like a book.

Oh, yeah, I suppose I could change it back. Nah, sometimes running around in a panic because you're on fire is just running around in a panic because you're on fire.

Honestly I can't recall why the original book one was made, but then FIRE week happened about the same time so...

[SiuiS]

That's why the comic suddenly reminded me of it, with Hendrika's own situation, not telling right away where she knows the dad from.
BF rarely comes over (what with living in the neighbouring country), and therefore, it's my mother who tries to deal with that directly. He's never asked me directly yet about The Strange Case of the Spontaneously Generated Boyfriend, probably not to sound rude, but he does ask his significant other repeatedly, assuming (rightly) she talks about it with my mother. It's very much background stuff when I'm not staying at my mom's place, which is most of the time. It's true I should probably get a little more involved.

Well, it is your call of course. I was just giving you the side I didn't think you'd really looked at. :smallsmile:

Different country? Did not know that. From memory, you're French, which I would take to mean you live in France currently, so where is BF from/living?


They seem mostly asexual I suppose. They don't seem to want to do Smurfette as much as date her. But they can just be polite, I suppose.

Smurfette was a creation of a warlock specifically to enthrall the amurfs with her glamour. I don't even think they want to date we, so much as she compells such sexually normative behavior as part of her makeup.

Her very subtle, non-Mardi gras makeup.



Oh man, I'm that girlfriend, except I haven't worked up the courage to tell my partner that I'd love a little fem on the side and I haven't worked up the courage to tell the girl I have these feelings for that I do and I'm pretty sure she's straight and argh!! >,<

Heh.

Those situations are... Interesting.



Edit: Oh yeah, I came here to post this! Transgender kids and being smart about gender. (http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-03-15/some-transgender-kids-have-it-more-figured-out-than-the-rest-of-us/#more-3187788)

Will read. Thanks.
Found interesting stuffs on a lark myself, but it's religious at best and political as well at worst, so I don't have anything to share :<


If I was seeing a bi girl, I'd be totally cool with her having a girlfriend as well. :smallsmile:

It's much more finnicky in particular than in general, though. I think not recognizing that (not you, just in general!) is probably the biggest mistake to make.


Oh, yeah, I suppose I could change it back. Nah, sometimes running around in a panic because you're on fire is just running around in a panic because you're on fire.

Honestly I can't recall why the original book one was made, but then FIRE week happened about the same time so...

This is all the more confusing for you not using that avatar currently.

[Mono Vertigo]

Well, it is your call of course. I was just giving you the side I didn't think you'd really looked at. :smallsmile:

Different country? Did not know that. From memory, you're French, which I would take to mean you live in France currently, so where is BF from/living?
And thank you very much for the advice!

That's the other way round, actually (I recognize it's me not being clear about it). I'm Belgian. BF is French. I'm currently living with him.

[Kittenwolf]

*Stumbles back in*

Hi everyone! Just back from three weeks in New Zealand on holiday with a bunch of friends. My feet hate me (three day mountain trek ended yesterday), my body aches, my chronometer is out of whack, and I got bugger all sleep last night.

What'd I miss? :)

*Goes Splat, face-first onto the floor and passes out*

[SiuiS]

And thank you very much for the advice!

That's the other way round, actually (I recognize it's me not being clear about it). I'm Belgian. BF is French. I'm currently living with him.

Oooooh! That makes sense actually. Sorry; I have heard you say you know French and you went on about the ç key at one point (note I think that may be the wrong symbol <_<), so I assumed. My bad.


*Stumbles back in*

Hi everyone! Just back from three weeks in New Zealand on holiday with a bunch of friends. My feet hate me (three day mountain trek ended yesterday), my body aches, my chronometer is out of whack, and I got bugger all sleep last night.

What'd I miss? :)

*Goes Splat, face-first onto the floor and passes out*

ah, man. My work night is the poor woman's New Zealand? I feel like that all the time and all I get is the smallest paycheck they can te away with giving me >_<

Um... I don't think you missed anything big, really. Just plushies and pictures I think?

[Coidzor]

BF rarely comes over (what with living in the neighbouring country), and therefore, it's my mother who tries to deal with that directly. He's never asked me directly yet about The Strange Case of the Spontaneously Generated Boyfriend, probably not to sound rude, but he does ask his significant other repeatedly, assuming (rightly) she talks about it with my mother. It's very much background stuff when I'm not staying at my mom's place, which is most of the time. It's true I should probably get a little more involved.

I'm sorry, what? :smallconfused:


Those situations are... Interesting.

Between the high messiness potential and high anticlimax potential?


It's much more finnicky in particular than in general, though. I think not recognizing that (not you, just in general!) is probably the biggest mistake to make.

Indeed, I can't tell if my attempts at empathy and exploring it mentally are overtly horribad, but I can tell that I'm missing a crucial element and that a feminist would have a field day if they could get inside my head.


This is all the more confusing for you not using that avatar currently.

Sorry, I was trying to be clear without saying things like "the avatar where I've got a book-mask and am running around with my head on fire," or linking. x.x

[noparlpf]

And thank you very much for the advice!

That's the other way round, actually (I recognize it's me not being clear about it). I'm Belgian. BF is French. I'm currently living with him.

I knew that stuff (though maybe not the living-with bit), but maybe I just remember random details well.


*Stumbles back in*

Hi everyone! Just back from three weeks in New Zealand on holiday with a bunch of friends. My feet hate me (three day mountain trek ended yesterday), my body aches, my chronometer is out of whack, and I got bugger all sleep last night.

What'd I miss? :)

*Goes Splat, face-first onto the floor and passes out*

Ooh, that sounds fun. Getting used to sleep again after travel is a pain though.

[Arachu]

Hey! New thread! Sorry about being gone, lots of things happened. Most of them alright though. Although my hands aren't. High bar decided to be a jerk and rip the skin off them today.

D: *Hugs!*


Here (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs5.asp?ActID=2266&ChapterID=64) is a link to what I believe is the text of the relevant law. This (http://www2.illinois.gov/dhr/Pages/default.aspx) is the website of the department of human rights in Illinois. Hope that helps.
*back to lurking*

Thanks!


Oh man, I'm that girlfriend, except I haven't worked up the courage to tell my partner that I'd love a little fem on the side and I haven't worked up the courage to tell the girl I have these feelings for that I do and I'm pretty sure she's straight and argh!! >,<

*Hugs*


Edit: Oh yeah, I came here to post this! Transgender kids and being smart about gender. (http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-03-15/some-transgender-kids-have-it-more-figured-out-than-the-rest-of-us/#more-3187788)

Neat article. ^_^


EDIT: Forgot to mention, I have a skirt now! :D

I haven't taken pictures yet, but at some point I probably will and I'll post 'em and whatnot. For now I'll just put up some old ones of my face I only put on Facebook for some reason. :smalltongue:


Me when I first moved out of my parents' place and just got my haircut.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/550340_201234016684180_2017093605_n.jpg

Me with my hair up to the side, wearing a sweater and necklace I got from my aunt and sporting my insanely-long fingernails (which, sadly, I had to cut but on the bright side it's easier to pick up pens :smalltongue: ).
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578176_207136679427247_1067413365_n.jpg

Me in a sorta punk-ish look, wearing another necklace that's pretty much a tiny belt along with my hat.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/65543_209796449161270_762602399_n.jpg

And me holding my cousin Toni's dog, Kiwi, who wouldn't look at the camera when I had it on. :smalltongue:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555202_217317505075831_1076182664_n.jpg


~Bianca

[turkishproverb]

So...why is this thread named for plushies?

[monkyman640]

So...why is this thread named for plushies?

We started talking about them at the end of the old thread, and so Chess named this one after them.

[Mono Vertigo]

I'm sorry, what? :smallconfused:
That's a needlessly humorous way of referring to the situation from the point of view of that family friend. All of a sudden, bam, I've got a boyfriend from a different country, and he has no idea how we met; in addition, there's the factor of me having never shown romantic interest in anyone before, which makes it all the more disconcerting. It's a bit like he randomly popped into existence.

[Asta Kask]

Is his name Heisenberg? Because then it will be a very short-lived relationship.

[Mono Vertigo]

No, but he is nicknamed House in certain circles.

[Coidzor]

No, but he is nicknamed House in certain circles.

Because he's big into electronica?

Because he's dead sexy when doing his Hugh Laurie impression?

Because he's built like a brick **** house?

[Asta Kask]

Because he's thick as a brick?

[Mono Vertigo]

Because he's dead sexy when doing his Hugh Laurie impression?
... maybe.

[Coidzor]

Because he's thick as a brick?

Oh my~ :smallamused:

Hmm. I should look up young hugh laurie, come to think of it. *does so* As I thought, mansome. ...Also one which looked eerily like someone from the Game of Thrones cast. :smalleek:


... maybe.

:smallbiggrin:

[SiuiS]

I'm sorry, what? :smallconfused:


"You see, family friend, even though this new boyfriend is new and we wot give you any details, it's someone you've known all along."

"... What?"



Between the high messiness potential and high anticlimax potential?


Basically.



Indeed, I can't tell if my attempts at empathy and exploring it mentally are overtly horribad, but I can tell that I'm missing a crucial element and that a feminist would have a field day if they could get inside my head.


I don't think it's quite necessary to single out feminism as having a field day. In my experience, by the time your thoughts are ba enough for [select group] to be indignant, run of the mill people will be too.



Sorry, I was trying to be clear without saying things like "the avatar where I've got a book-mask and am running around with my head on fire," or linking. x.x

Don't worry about it. I can barely discerns your avatars as is; the one with a. Arrow in the eye looks like an OOTS fighter reclining on a hill chewing a sprig I grass on my phone, due to small resolution. Just mentioning it was fun to try and follow.

[Coidzor]

"You see, family friend, even though this new boyfriend is new and we wot give you any details, it's someone you've known all along."

"... What?"

It's all beginning to make sense now.


Basically.

alright'cha.


I don't think it's quite necessary to single out feminism as having a field day. In my experience, by the time your thoughts are ba enough for [select group] to be indignant, run of the mill people will be too.

Well, you know what they say about the banality of evil.


Don't worry about it. I can barely discerns your avatars as is; the one with a. Arrow in the eye looks like an OOTS fighter reclining on a hill chewing a sprig I grass on my phone, due to small resolution. Just mentioning it was fun to try and follow.

I don't think I'd have the stuff to forum using a phone. I'd probably eat my hat in frustration. :smalleek:

[TaiLiu]

I don't think I'd have the stuff to forum using a phone. I'd probably eat my hat in frustration. :smalleek:
Isn't your "hat" a metal crown?

[Heliomance]

Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

[KenderWizard]

Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

Jaysus, some people are just rude. I've sometimes been unsure about someone's gender or wondered about their assigned-at-birth gender versus their presentation, but I've always been too worried about hurting their feelings to ask any leading questions, let alone comment. I should at least work out how to ask people for their preferred pronouns...

Preemptive support! (http://gawker.com/5990745/dad-overhears-sons-plans-to-come-out-assuages-his-fears-with-heartwarming-letter-of-acceptance?post=58299649) Some parents are awesome.

[TaiLiu]

Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

Unfortunate. Do you know where your passability problem is?

[Heliomance]

Nope, no clue. I know my voice isn't great, but I think they're clocking me just on looks :/

[TaiLiu]

Nope, no clue. I know my voice isn't great, but I think they're clocking me just on looks :/
Hm. Perhaps you could ask a good, supportive friend for advice on how to make yourself look more feminine. Ask him or her to criticise your looks and point out problems honestly.

[Akowrules]

Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

*hugs* I'm so sorry to hear that. I don't understand why people have to be that rude, and go out of their way to make someone miserable and embarrassed. :smallfrown:

[The Succubus]

Sadly I don't think we'll be much help because we all think Helio is both gorgeous and extremely feminine. But if you're willing to post up some recent photos, I'd be willing to give them some balanced and reasoned examination, both bad and good.

***

I have a question for our feminist dwellers here - I'm trying to understand what the term "privilege" is all about and why only straight guys seem to be guilty of it. I really don't understand the concept at all, or even know what it means, so please enlighten me and excuse my ignorance. :smallfrown:

[Kindablue]

I have a question for our feminist dwellers here - I'm trying to understand what the term "privilege" is all about and why only straight guys seem to be guilty of it. I really don't understand the concept at all, or even know what it means, so please enlighten me and excuse my ignorance. :smallfrown:

It isn't jargon; it's just having a privileged spot on the social ladder. It's not having to explain who you are or what the point of you is. It's like that Pryor bit about the N-word after he came back from Africa. Life is tough, everyone takes **** and feels animosity, but when an argument breaks out, a black person isn't just that ass who cut you off in traffic, they're a ******.

[Nix Nihila]

I have a question for our feminist dwellers here - I'm trying to understand what the term "privilege" is all about and why only straight guys seem to be guilty of it. I really don't understand the concept at all, or even know what it means, so please enlighten me and excuse my ignorance. :smallfrown:

I don't think privilege is really something that people are "guilty" of. Basically, privilege consists of all the societal advantages you get for being a part of a certain group. It's an institutional thing, where the actions and attitudes of the collective end up giving privileged people an overall advantage. People can be (and usually are) both privileged and non-priveleged in different ways. For example, as a Caucasian person, I am privileged, but as a trans woman, I lack the privilege that a man or a cis person has.

Privilege manifests in different ways. A married woman is assumed to have taken the last name of her husband (and if she doesn't, some people will inevitably use that as evidence that she's sexist). Everyone is straight until proven otherwise (and additionally, books with queer characters are considered niche). Politically assertive women are often seen as bitches, while men are just ambitious.

[noparlpf]

Is his name Heisenberg? Because then it will be a very short-lived relationship.

Ahh, it burns! (Had a P-Chem/quantum exam Friday. Any mention of anything at all related is painful.)


Because he's thick as a brick?

Just found that CD. Love how the album is just one song.
New car doesn't have an auxiliary cable jack, but the CD player loads five or six at a time, which is nice. So I got out my old box of CDs to see which I have to re-burn and which I still have.


Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

Geez, that stinks. People are butts. *hugs*


Jaysus, some people are just rude. I've sometimes been unsure about someone's gender or wondered about their assigned-at-birth gender versus their presentation, but I've always been too worried about hurting their feelings to ask any leading questions, let alone comment. I should at least work out how to ask people for their preferred pronouns...

Preemptive support! (http://gawker.com/5990745/dad-overhears-sons-plans-to-come-out-assuages-his-fears-with-heartwarming-letter-of-acceptance?post=58299649) Some parents are awesome.

Cool parents.


I have a question for our feminist dwellers here - I'm trying to understand what the term "privilege" is all about and why only straight guys seem to be guilty of it. I really don't understand the concept at all, or even know what it means, so please enlighten me and excuse my ignorance. :smallfrown:

Bleh, definitions. Somebody else will define it better.


Edit: Oh yeah, I saw this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/full-figured-mannequins-lingerie-sweden_n_2883520.html) on facebook earlier. I think facebook. "Earlier" is like twenty minutes ago so I really shouldn't have forgotten already. Oops.

[Akowrules]

Ah, the movie Grease always makes me feel better after a rather difficult day.

[Lentrax]

Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

Sadly people are jerks. Also they are ignorant jack wagons that wouldn't be worthy enough to worship the ground Helio walks on.

:smalleek:

I just said that aloud, didn't I?

:smallredface:

[SiuiS]

My internet doesn't like you today, Coidzor.
Suffice that Phone forming is the good option.


Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

Sucks :smallfrown:
Try getting very insulted and indignant and saying "why would you say such a horrible thing?!"


Nope, no clue. I know my voice isn't great, but I think they're clocking me just on looks :/

Body language, perchance?

Remember that half Danish half Japanese man, who dressed like a Lolita girl and sang like Gackt? His body language made it very, very obvious he was male despite his sexy sexy looks (voice too, but bluh) and maybe that's what is causing it? All it takes is a little slip when you're excited or something.

Man, this is a no-fun but necessary topic...


Sadly I don't think we'll be much help because we all think Helio is both gorgeous and extremely feminine. But if you're willing to post up some recent photos, I'd be willing to give them some balanced and reasoned examination, both bad and good.

We are, sadly, some of the worst people to ask about what heteronormative folks find acceptable.



I have a question for our feminist dwellers here - I'm trying to understand what the term "privilege" is all about and why only straight guys seem to be guilty of it. I really don't understand the concept at all, or even know what it means, so please enlighten me and excuse my ignorance. :smallfrown:

It's not something only straight men have, though there are those who will say so. Much like the 'no such thing as sexism against men' discussion, actually.

As has been said, privelege is a buzzword meaning "you are in a position where not only do you not know how good you have it, but your not knowing is obvious and makes you out to be kind of a tool". For example; many straight men would dearly love a woman to push them up against a wall, talk sexy at them, and then begin a co-ravishing. They even fantasize about it! So when a woman says something about how icky it was to have someone push her against a wall and talk sexy, and the guy's response to her was "man, you should have rolled with it", that's the sort of thing Privelege means. It means allowing your ignorance to trivialize someone else's legitimate concerns.

The... Inverse, I think, is "First World Problems", where your concerns are trivialized because you're better off, instead of because you're worse off.

Privilege shows up all over the place; the most common uses are to point out you're white, you're straight, you're male or you're cisgendered.



Edit: Oh yeah, I saw this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/full-figured-mannequins-lingerie-sweden_n_2883520.html) on facebook earlier. I think facebook. "Earlier" is like twenty minutes ago so I really shouldn't have forgotten already. Oops.

I L'd OL.

[Mono Vertigo]

Yeah. Privilege is mostly little things that are either positive or non-negative; it also tends to be about thing you have no, or very little control, over. It's being rightly assumed t be cis and straight. It's not having you be defined by your ethnicity most of the time. It's being rarely the target of supposedly harmless jokes. It's being able to go out in public with your significant other without being accused of flaunting your sexuality.
And, when it gets meta, privilege is also not having to think about privilege or discrimination or your own identity, because those are hardly used against you.
It's a passive thing. The best thing you can do about it is be aware of its existence, not try to profit too much from it, and think about the ways society should change so that everyone benefits from the privilege (and if everybody is privileged, then nobody is).
The common error/exaggeration is conflating it with everything that's associated to the majority, even when it's not actually positive or non-negative. Recent example: holding the door for women, or having to fight harder in a divorce to get custody of your children if you're a man. That's not privilege. It may come from privilege, but if you think it's okay to be insulted because you held the door for a woman, then... then you may want to analyze your Internet-user privilege of being able to say that to anyone without risking a verbal or physical beating. Because not everyone can use Internet, you know, and if they want to say [REDACTED] in the face of people, they have to think about the consequences first.
(Not just that but that's the most polite way I can put my opinion of excessive privilege-calling. Plus, it's generally not okay of insulting people just for having privileges. It's another thing if they flaunt it or abuse it, but simply benefiting from it doesn't count.)
See, privilege works in many ways! We all suffer from Internet-user privilege here. It's our responsibility not to abuse it. :smallyuk:

[The Succubus]

Yeah. Privilege is mostly little things that are either positive or non-negative; it also tends to be about thing you have no, or very little control, over. It's being rightly assumed t be cis and straight. It's not having you be defined by your ethnicity most of the time. It's being rarely the target of supposedly harmless jokes. It's being able to go out in public with your significant other without being accused of flaunting your sexuality.
And, when it gets meta, privilege is also not having to think about privilege or discrimination or your own identity, because those are hardly used against you.
It's a passive thing. The best thing you can do about it is be aware of its existence, not try to profit too much from it, and think about the ways society should change so that everyone benefits from the privilege (and if everybody is privileged, then nobody is).
The common error/exaggeration is conflating it with everything that's associated to the majority, even when it's not actually positive or non-negative. Recent example: holding the door for women, or having to fight harder in a divorce to get custody of your children if you're a man. That's not privilege. It may come from privilege, but if you think it's okay to be insulted because you held the door for a woman, then... then you may want to analyze your Internet-user privilege of being able to say that to anyone without risking a verbal or physical beating. Because not everyone can use Internet, you know, and if they want to say [REDACTED] in the face of people, they have to think about the consequences first.
(Not just that but that's the most polite way I can put my opinion of excessive privilege-calling. Plus, it's generally not okay of insulting people just for having privileges. It's another thing if they flaunt it or abuse it, but simply benefiting from it doesn't count.)
See, privilege works in many ways! We all suffer from Internet-user privilege here. It's our responsibility not to abuse it. :smallyuk:

My brain hurts. :smallfrown:

[SiuiS]

My brain hurts. :smallfrown:

Along what lines?

[Kittenwolf]

Nope, no clue. I know my voice isn't great, but I think they're clocking me just on looks :/

How in the smegging heck did someone clock you on looks? o.O
You look amazing in the photos that you've posted, the mind just boggles.

I can only assume that something in your voice/body language is twigging something?

[The Succubus]

It's like I'm back in junior school again and a kid runs up to me and says "nyer, nyer, you're privileged." I ask them what it means and they get pouty and reply "Oh, that's totally the sort of question a privileged person would ask", with the conversation heading swiftly downhill from there.

I'm a straight(ish) cisman and I feel like I'm being charged with a crime I didn't even know I was commiting and that if I protest or say I don't understand, I'm just being even more of an *******. I'm cool with men, women, everyone and everything but apparently this isn't enough and merely for being who I am (something I didn't exactly have much say in the matter in) I'm a privileged jerk. And that I'm a privileged jerk for whining about being a privileged jerk.

Now my brain hurts and I feel like crap. :smallfrown:

[KenderWizard]

I have a question for our feminist dwellers here - I'm trying to understand what the term "privilege" is all about and why only straight guys seem to be guilty of it. I really don't understand the concept at all, or even know what it means, so please enlighten me and excuse my ignorance. :smallfrown:

Since your brain hurts, I'll try too.

"Privilege" just means that, it means being in a socially "higher" position. A man is in a socially higher position than a woman, _in terms of gender_. The man gets things from being a man, and the crucial thing is, he doesn't even have to think about it, or claim them, he's just automatically benefiting from a higher social standing. Society assumes he's the default; tshirts cut for him are "unisex", movies are generally marketed towards him, if he's assertive he won't be punished for it by being called a "harpy" or "shrill" or "nagging", if he chooses to play online games he won't be assumed to be bad at them because of his gender, etc. It _doesn't_ mean he's never hurt by sexist practices. It _doesn't_ mean his life is way totally better than any woman's life ever. It just means that he benefits from a society that thinks he's the default, and he doesn't even really have to think about it.

There are many axes of discrimination, and many many types of privilege. I have the following privileges and non-privileges
- I don't have male privilege, I'm a woman
- I have both white privilege and racial-majority privilege (Ireland is like 90% white)
- I have cis privilege, I'm cis, and if I wanted to, I could get through life without bothering to think about trans issues because the world assumes everyone is cis
- I don't have straight privilege, I'm bi
- I _do_ have heteronormative-relationship privilege; my partner is cis male, so I can go around holding hands in public without people making homophobic remarks
- I also don't have gay-visibility privilege (privilege is complex). People assume I'm straight, and some LGBT groups think I shouldn't "count", and that kind of thing.
Being "visible" is a real tricky one. For stuff like LGBT issues and disability issues, there are situations in which visibility is a privilege and situations in which invisibility is a privilege. The best way is to count them both, as mutually exclusive, and for each group to try to be aware that they have different experiences than someone from the other group, but that neither is "more disabled" or "more oppressed". Gotta hang together!

The reason we have privilege as a concept is to put a word on the way a white cis guy can walk home alone at night -- without considering that he might be attacked for who he is and that he could assume everyone else can do the same. (There are lots of exceptions, I don't mean any white cis guy at all can walk home from anywhere to anywhere, etc, just the "default") Sure, lots of people are copped on enough to realise that isn't true for everyone, but you have to be copped on, the world doesn't teach you fear in the same way it teaches women to fear men or trans people to fear cis people.

People say "check your privilege" when they want you to take a moment to think about how, in the situation they're talking about, you might have a different experience to them, because of how society treats you. It means "You don't necessarily understand what it is to be me in this world, try to imagine, try to listen."

There is theoretically such a thing as a perfectly privileged person, someone who has _all_ the privileges: white, cis, male, able-bodied, rich, upper class... etc etc.

There can't be someone who has none of the privileges, because they'd have to be gay and bi but also asexual, and both a trans man and a trans woman, and both invisibly and visibly disabled, etc etc, because all those people have different non-privileges.



Edit: Oh yeah, I saw this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/full-figured-mannequins-lingerie-sweden_n_2883520.html) on facebook earlier. I think facebook. "Earlier" is like twenty minutes ago so I really shouldn't have forgotten already. Oops.

I like the way they have different sizes, and more than one different size. I am fascinated by the reaction. Not surprised, just fascinated.

[SiuiS]

It's like I'm back in junior school again and a kid runs up to me and says "nyer, nyer, you're privileged." I ask them what it means and they get pouty and reply "Oh, that's totally the sort of question a privileged person would ask", with the conversation heading swiftly downhill from there.

I'm a straight(ish) cisman and I feel like I'm being charged with a crime I didn't even know I was commiting and that if I protest or say I don't understand, I'm just being even more of an *******. I'm cool with men, women, everyone and everything but apparently this isn't enough and merely for being who I am (something I didn't exactly have much say in the matter in) I'm a privileged jerk. And that I'm a privileged jerk for whining about being a privileged jerk.

Now my brain hurts and I feel like crap. :smallfrown:

Oh, honey no. Don't feel like that.

Yes, privilege is used that way – often, as Privilege, the capital word with preexisting associations – but that's as valid as saying "oh, you're a Feminist/Chauvanist/Marxist/Anarchist/American/Etc" and thinking its a valid insult. It's not.

Saying you are privileged means exactly what's on the tin – you have a privilege someone else doesn't. But letting them use that as an insult is silly. It's like when people who have to take the bus rag on you for having a car, it's not really a valid point in and of itself. It has to be used for something or it meaningless.

If someone tries to use "oh, you have Privilege" as a way to exclude you or rebut your point, just point out that it's not quite that simple. The truth of a thing isseparate from who said that thing; "the sky is blue" is just a true when spoken by Hitler as Ghandi. Having privilege is not itself a crime. You've done nothing wrong an have no reason to feel bad. Okay?

[Mono Vertigo]

... and I wrote that wall of text with the very goal of not making anyone feel bad. :smalleek::smallfrown:
Correlates my experience that the worst time for me to communicate complex ideas is before the first lunch of the day. Ugh. Sorry.

[Socratov]

In relation to the points made/questioned by Kender, Succubus and Siuis, I would like to add that privilege is murky at best.

People (I'm pointing at huminty in general) seem to have this idea that there is a race (as in contest) going on about who is the happiest/best/goodest/saddest/has most troubles/etc. viewing privilege as some sort of cheating. Subsequently they use those views of 'cheating' as an insult (like gamers use 'n00b', 'hacker', 'casual gamer'). Those people also think that by identifying a person for it's privileges it gives them full insight into this person's character, feelings and inner workings. They are (quite literally) judging a book by it's cover. So, not only are such arguments fallacies on basis of non-sequitur, but they are ad-hominem as well as argumentum ad misericordiam.

In short: arguments on basis of privilege are utter fecal matter produced by male-bodied bovines.

[Asta Kask]

KenderWizard also has the privilege of actually speaking english as a native. Everyone assumes that everyone speaks good english on the Internet, unless you're on specifically [Swedish] sites.

[Skeppio]

*snip*

I can safely say I've only ever heard 'privilege' described that way by you and one other person. Every other time, it's used by the worst of the LGBT community (also the loudest and most prominent) to basically say "You're white/straight/male, so you don't deserve rights and I don't have to form any logical points to win an argument because I'm not CIS SCUM!". It's why I don't like the term in general. It almost always comes out sounding like "I don't have the highest possible social standing, so I should get to treat everyone different to me like ****". Hypocritical, arrogant and outrageously stupid. :smallannoyed:

(And yes, I've had people pull the privilege card on me like it's some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card, knowing I'm bi and trans! :smallfurious:)

[Socratov]

KenderWizard also has the privilege of actually speaking english as a native. Everyone assumes that everyone speaks good english on the Internet, unless you're on specifically [Swedish] sites.

or any other non-english site for that matter :smallwink:

[SiuiS]

I can safely say I've only ever heard 'privilege' described that way by you and one other person. Every other time, it's used by the worst of the LGBT community (also the loudest and most prominent) to basically say "You're white/straight/male, so you don't deserve rights and I don't have to form any logical points to win an argument because I'm not CIS SCUM!". It's why I don't like the term in general. It almost always comes out sounding like "I don't have the highest possible social standing, so I should get to treat everyone different to me like ****". Hypocritical, arrogant and outrageously stupid. :smallannoyed:

(And yes, I've had people pull the privilege card on me like it's some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card, knowing I'm bi and trans! :smallfurious:)

This does seem to be the general usage, yes. I file this under my principle of "if you're not worth my respect you're not worth my attention" and quietly stop giving these people the validation of an argument.

Part of why I wanted to explain it as I did; the word itself has meaning, but it's being used as a pejorative. If I can highlight the meaning an downplay the pejorative, hopefully I can change it.

[Asta Kask]

or any other non-english site for that matter :smallwink:

How much of the Internet can you access if you only speak, say, Spanish?

[Asta Kask]

Good News!

NARTH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Therapy_of_H omosexuality) just lost their tax-exempt status. (http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2013/03/irs-revokes-narths-tax-exempt-status/?utm_campaign=irs-revokes-narths-tax-exempt-status&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter)

They're big into reparative therapy, not so big into filing their documents with the IRS on time. MUAHAHAHAHA!

[Serpentine]

I've been particularly conscious of my cis-privilege status, specifically involving bathrooms and awkward conversations, and my able-bodied-privilege, particularly involving access to buildings, lately. It's an interesting way of viewing the world, and of seeing and trying to come up with solutions to problems.

[Socratov]

I've been particularly conscious of my cis-privilege status, specifically involving bathrooms and awkward conversations, and my able-bodied-privilege, particularly involving access to buildings, lately. It's an interesting way of viewing the world, and of seeing and trying to come up with solutions to problems.

Ehm... Isn't that commonly referred to counting your blessings? :smallwink:

[The Succubus]

I think that's one of the things that appeals to me about Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones. Although he's a dwarf, he is still acutely aware of his privilege at being born into one of the wealthiest and most powerful families in the land.

Thank you all for helping me get some insight into this. :smallsmile:

[Mina Kobold]

I can safely say I've only ever heard 'privilege' described that way by you and one other person. Every other time, it's used by the worst of the LGBT community (also the loudest and most prominent) to basically say "You're white/straight/male, so you don't deserve rights and I don't have to form any logical points to win an argument because I'm not CIS SCUM!". It's why I don't like the term in general. It almost always comes out sounding like "I don't have the highest possible social standing, so I should get to treat everyone different to me like ****". Hypocritical, arrogant and outrageously stupid. :smallannoyed:

(And yes, I've had people pull the privilege card on me like it's some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card, knowing I'm bi and trans! :smallfurious:)

Mrrr, that is a terrible way to act. I really hope you won't have to face that at all in the future, or at least much less. :smallsmile:

Curiously, I knew the word privilege (And privilegium, the Danish term for it) way before I even got toe-deep into the LGBTAQ+ community. Usually, it was used in a matter like "Clean water/roofs above our heads/Regular meals/electricity is a privilege, some are too poor to have it", to remind children that we are rather lucky and must think about the impoverished and starving people of the world too. Might just be a Danish thing, though. ^_^'


Good News!

NARTH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Therapy_of_H omosexuality) just lost their tax-exempt status. (http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2013/03/irs-revokes-narths-tax-exempt-status/?utm_campaign=irs-revokes-narths-tax-exempt-status&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter)

They're big into reparative therapy, not so big into filing their documents with the IRS on time. MUAHAHAHAHA!

Yay! ^_^


On another note: A video (http://www.upworthy.com/watch-a-lesbian-attack-the-word-gay) I found about the word gay. :3

[KenderWizard]

KenderWizard also has the privilege of actually speaking english as a native. Everyone assumes that everyone speaks good english on the Internet, unless you're on specifically [Swedish] sites.

I have a lot more privileges and non-privileges than I listed, I was already into essay territory! You're right, in that area I have the privileges of being a native English speaker and my nationality being well-regarded. I focused on LGBT and gender stuff, but I could also have gotten into my physical and mental health positions on these ladders, and my beauty/weight/colouring, or my class and wealth. There's a lot of ways to have privilege, and a lot of things to think about.


I can safely say I've only ever heard 'privilege' described that way by you and one other person. Every other time, it's used by the worst of the LGBT community (also the loudest and most prominent) to basically say "You're white/straight/male, so you don't deserve rights and I don't have to form any logical points to win an argument because I'm not CIS SCUM!". It's why I don't like the term in general. It almost always comes out sounding like "I don't have the highest possible social standing, so I should get to treat everyone different to me like ****". Hypocritical, arrogant and outrageously stupid. :smallannoyed:

(And yes, I've had people pull the privilege card on me like it's some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card, knowing I'm bi and trans! :smallfurious:)

That really sucks. :smallfrown: I didn't make all this up, I learned this by reading on feminist and LGBT blogs and sites and articles and stuff. It's not just me and one other person, really, but some groups can be really aggressive and lash back against potential allies, which is in one way understandable if they're angry, but it certainly isn't wise.


I think that's one of the things that appeals to me about Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones. Although he's a dwarf, he is still acutely aware of his privilege at being born into one of the wealthiest and most powerful families in the land.

Thank you all for helping me get some insight into this. :smallsmile:

That's a good example! And you're welcome, I hope we're making progress here! Suffice to say, if someone "accuses" you of being "guilty" of privilege, they're being overly simplistic. They can accuse you of being guilty of ignoring your own privileges or being willfully ignorant, but just having privilege is an outcome of society and you mostly can't give it back even if you want to, so all you can do is try to be aware and be willing to listen. If they don't accept that, then they're being a meanie.



Curiously, I knew the word privilege (And privilegium, the Danish term for it) way before I even got toe-deep into the LGBTAQ+ community. Usually, it was used in a matter like "Clean water/roofs above our heads/Regular meals/electricity is a privilege, some are too poor to have it", to remind children that we are rather lucky and must think about the impoverished and starving people of the world too. Might just be a Danish thing, though. ^_^'


For whatever reason, wealth and class privilege seems to be the best recognised. Everyone knows where they are on the wealth and class (they are separate) ladders and knows that people up higher have it easier. I guess money is a very obvious thing, whereas subtle racism or sexism is harder to quantify.

[Serpentine]

Ehm... Isn't that commonly referred to counting your blessings? :smallwink:Ehm... No? :smallconfused: I mean things like observing how complicated and incredibly awkward it gets when a transperson goes to work as their birth-sex and then someone comes along and talks about them to/around their coworkers and people start getting confused and sometimes a bit nasty, and wondering how they cope with the bathroom situation there. And things like starting to measure different buildings by how easy or hard it'd be for a disabled person to navigate them, and what could be done to improve on them.

[Socratov]

Ehm... No? :smallconfused: I mean things like observing how complicated and incredibly awkward it gets when a transperson goes to work as their birth-sex and then someone comes along and talks about them to/around their coworkers and people start getting confused and sometimes a bit nasty, and wondering how they cope with the bathroom situation there. And things like starting to measure different buildings by how easy or hard it'd be for a disabled person to navigate them, and what could be done to improve on them.
Ah, in that way... I guess I misunderstood your comment :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

It's like I'm back in junior school again and a kid runs up to me and says "nyer, nyer, you're privileged." I ask them what it means and they get pouty and reply "Oh, that's totally the sort of question a privileged person would ask", with the conversation heading swiftly downhill from there.

I'm a straight(ish) cisman and I feel like I'm being charged with a crime I didn't even know I was commiting and that if I protest or say I don't understand, I'm just being even more of an *******. I'm cool with men, women, everyone and everything but apparently this isn't enough and merely for being who I am (something I didn't exactly have much say in the matter in) I'm a privileged jerk. And that I'm a privileged jerk for whining about being a privileged jerk.

Now my brain hurts and I feel like crap. :smallfrown:

Ughh, I hate dealing with that type. I've had some "feminist" classmates completely ignore and/or insult me when trying to add my two cents to some conversation just because I'm cismale.
It's like, one, if you want people to change, maybe you should actually explain to them what the issue is instead of calling them a word in an insulting-sounding way and getting upset when they have no idea what you're talking about, two, if you're excessively abrasive, nobody's going to listen to you, and three, equality is about equality, not eliminating all the men.


Since your brain hurts, I'll try too.

"Privilege" just means that, it means being in a socially "higher" position. A man is in a socially higher position than a woman, _in terms of gender_. The man gets things from being a man, and the crucial thing is, he doesn't even have to think about it, or claim them, he's just automatically benefiting from a higher social standing. Society assumes he's the default; tshirts cut for him are "unisex", movies are generally marketed towards him, if he's assertive he won't be punished for it by being called a "harpy" or "shrill" or "nagging", if he chooses to play online games he won't be assumed to be bad at them because of his gender, etc. It _doesn't_ mean he's never hurt by sexist practices. It _doesn't_ mean his life is way totally better than any woman's life ever. It just means that he benefits from a society that thinks he's the default, and he doesn't even really have to think about it.

There are many axes of discrimination, and many many types of privilege. I have the following privileges and non-privileges
- I don't have male privilege, I'm a woman
- I have both white privilege and racial-majority privilege (Ireland is like 90% white)
- I have cis privilege, I'm cis, and if I wanted to, I could get through life without bothering to think about trans issues because the world assumes everyone is cis
- I don't have straight privilege, I'm bi
- I _do_ have heteronormative-relationship privilege; my partner is cis male, so I can go around holding hands in public without people making homophobic remarks
- I also don't have gay-visibility privilege (privilege is complex). People assume I'm straight, and some LGBT groups think I shouldn't "count", and that kind of thing.
Being "visible" is a real tricky one. For stuff like LGBT issues and disability issues, there are situations in which visibility is a privilege and situations in which invisibility is a privilege. The best way is to count them both, as mutually exclusive, and for each group to try to be aware that they have different experiences than someone from the other group, but that neither is "more disabled" or "more oppressed". Gotta hang together!

The reason we have privilege as a concept is to put a word on the way a white cis guy can walk home alone at night -- without considering that he might be attacked for who he is and that he could assume everyone else can do the same. (There are lots of exceptions, I don't mean any white cis guy at all can walk home from anywhere to anywhere, etc, just the "default") Sure, lots of people are copped on enough to realise that isn't true for everyone, but you have to be copped on, the world doesn't teach you fear in the same way it teaches women to fear men or trans people to fear cis people.

People say "check your privilege" when they want you to take a moment to think about how, in the situation they're talking about, you might have a different experience to them, because of how society treats you. It means "You don't necessarily understand what it is to be me in this world, try to imagine, try to listen."

There is theoretically such a thing as a perfectly privileged person, someone who has _all_ the privileges: white, cis, male, able-bodied, rich, upper class... etc etc.

There can't be someone who has none of the privileges, because they'd have to be gay and bi but also asexual, and both a trans man and a trans woman, and both invisibly and visibly disabled, etc etc, because all those people have different non-privileges.

Yeah, look at all those words. They're good ones. I'm bad at proper-language-definitions of things, so I figured I'd wait for you to say this. Worked out much better this way.


I like the way they have different sizes, and more than one different size. I am fascinated by the reaction. Not surprised, just fascinated.

The reactions vary. Some people are saying, hey cool, actually humanoid mannequins. Some people are saying, hey cool, it's a start towards actually portraying a variety of human figures. Some people are yelling about how that's not full-figured, when all the article says is "fuller figures" than the previous freakishly emaciated-looking mannequins. They are a bit slimmer than what most people are calling "full-figured", but "fuller" is a comparison-type word.


KenderWizard also has the privilege of actually speaking english as a native. Everyone assumes that everyone speaks good english on the Internet, unless you're on specifically [Swedish] sites.

Really? I'll admit I expect English as the default unless I go to specifically non-English sites, but I never expect good English. That would just be setting myself up for constant disappointment. Just a note, you speak or at least write English better than a good 90% of the native speakers I see on the internet.


Good News!

NARTH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Therapy_of_H omosexuality) just lost their tax-exempt status. (http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2013/03/irs-revokes-narths-tax-exempt-status/?utm_campaign=irs-revokes-narths-tax-exempt-status&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter)

They're big into reparative therapy, not so big into filing their documents with the IRS on time. MUAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, neat. Although it would be nice if they ran into trouble for being awful and not just for hiding information.


Mrrr, that is a terrible way to act. I really hope you won't have to face that at all in the future, or at least much less. :smallsmile:

Curiously, I knew the word privilege (And privilegium, the Danish term for it) way before I even got toe-deep into the LGBTAQ+ community. Usually, it was used in a matter like "Clean water/roofs above our heads/Regular meals/electricity is a privilege, some are too poor to have it", to remind children that we are rather lucky and must think about the impoverished and starving people of the world too. Might just be a Danish thing, though. ^_^'

I know my mum did that too. So it's not only Danish.



On another note: A video (http://www.upworthy.com/watch-a-lesbian-attack-the-word-gay) I found about the word gay. :3

Just had a "fun" conversation on facebook last week. A friend/acquaintance posted a link from the "Spread the Word to End the Word" page about the word "retard" and how it shouldn't be used as a pejorative. A couple of guys come in saying things like "well it's the context that matters, you guys are giving words power by being afraid of them, it's okay if I call somebody [slur] as long as I don't mean it/don't actually care" and stuff like that, ignoring that words come with cultural baggage and whatnot. Then you get the "any chance you're a straight white able-bodied upper-middle-class cissexual male?" and "bugger off, I have the First Amendment on my side" and "you're being bigots by pointing out our privileged perspectives, how is that not prejudice too" arguments and it all goes to s***.

[Asta Kask]

On another note: A video (http://www.upworthy.com/watch-a-lesbian-attack-the-word-gay) I found about the word gay. :3

Is this thread gay?

[Socratov]

Is this thread gay?

I guess it is amongst other things :smallbiggrin:

[Chess435]

:smalleek: Spent so much time up with Max and Karen last night that I woke up at 9:30 - two hours after my paper route is supposed to be done. (Sorry, just needed to vent somewhere.)

[KenderWizard]

Ughh, I hate dealing with that type. I've had some "feminist" classmates completely ignore and/or insult me when trying to add my two cents to some conversation just because I'm cismale.
It's like, one, if you want people to change, maybe you should actually explain to them what the issue is instead of calling them a word in an insulting-sounding way and getting upset when they have no idea what you're talking about, two, if you're excessively abrasive, nobody's going to listen to you, and three, equality is about equality, not eliminating all the men.

I've also had the opposite, interestingly.
Me: I find Hallowe'en to be difficult because young women are put under some pressure to do "sexy" outfits and then if you do, you're a "slut".
Man: I don't think women are put under pressure to have sexy outfits. I have friends who wear sexy Hallowe'en outfits and they never told me that they felt they "had" to.
Me: Well, maybe they did feel it and didn't tell you. I've felt it, and I'm a young woman. You wouldn't have felt it cause you're a man.
Man: You can't shut me down like that! I can contribute to this conversation too! What, just cause I'm a man, my opinions on this aren't any good?!
Me: :smalleek: :smallconfused: :smallfrown: (Then I cried. It wasn't good.)



Yeah, look at all those words. They're good ones. I'm bad at proper-language-definitions of things, so I figured I'd wait for you to say this. Worked out much better this way.

:smallbiggrin:

[noparlpf]

I've also had the opposite, interestingly.
Me: I find Hallowe'en to be difficult because young women are put under some pressure to do "sexy" outfits and then if you do, you're a "slut".
Man: I don't think women are put under pressure to have sexy outfits. I have friends who wear sexy Hallowe'en outfits and they never told me that they felt they "had" to.
Me: Well, maybe they did feel it and didn't tell you. I've felt it, and I'm a young woman. You wouldn't have felt it cause you're a man.
Man: You can't shut me down like that! I can contribute to this conversation too! What, just cause I'm a man, my opinions on this aren't any good?!
Me: :smalleek: :smallconfused: :smallfrown: (Then I cried. It wasn't good.)

:smallbiggrin:

Geez. You weren't even "shutting him down", you were pointing out another perspective.

[TaiLiu]

:smalleek: Spent so much time up with Max and Karen last night that I woke up at 9:30 - two hours after my paper route is supposed to be done. (Sorry, just needed to vent somewhere.)

Oh, no! :smalleek:

Will you get fired?
_________________________
Also, on privilege: does it count if one obtains certain benefits by being in a minority race?

[Selpharia]

I've also had the opposite, interestingly.
Me: I find Hallowe'en to be difficult because young women are put under some pressure to do "sexy" outfits and then if you do, you're a "slut".
Man: I don't think women are put under pressure to have sexy outfits. I have friends who wear sexy Hallowe'en outfits and they never told me that they felt they "had" to.
Me: Well, maybe they did feel it and didn't tell you. I've felt it, and I'm a young woman. You wouldn't have felt it cause you're a man.
Man: You can't shut me down like that! I can contribute to this conversation too! What, just cause I'm a man, my opinions on this aren't any good?!
Me: :smalleek: :smallconfused: :smallfrown: (Then I cried. It wasn't good.)

:smallbiggrin:

I'm a bit ambivalent on classes in feminism, I think this is kind of a problem that taking things like this into an academic context, since it turns actual experiences into sterile things that can be dissected, and that obscures the urgency of the problem with the abstract comfort of armchair philosophy. I'm not really sure how to square the fact that women have vastly more stake and experience with these problems with the need to make consciousness of these problems not just a "women's issue"

@Bianca- I love your hair more every time I see it, and I'm really glad you're living with such awesome people now.

@Helio- I'm not sure what else to say except *hugs*

An update on me:

After waiting for months, I finally got to see the endo at the health clinic that I've started going to that specializes in LGBT, and particularly trans, health. I've gone through a few procedural thing and had blood work done, so next Monday, I'm going back to talk with the doctor about it, and assuming everything goes well, I could actually leave there with both a prescription and hormones, so that's neat. Also, they're really nice people, and actually use Laura instead of my legal name when talking to me. I didn't think it would make as much of a difference to be called "miss" instead of "mister" by doctors and nurses, but it really does. I'm a little nervous but really excited all the same. I also went to see a friend from the trans support group I go to, and I ended up chatting for hours with a bunch of her housemates, which was fun, and might also end up in taking a shopping trip together, so I can have actual outfits and be less horribly afraid.

I'm also feeling a little guilty because I told my parents when I came out that I would try just anti-androgens for a while, but I find that as I spend more time as Laura, I don't have as much doubt that this is what I want to do, and I want to start a low dose of estrogen too, but I feel awful breaking my [informal] promise.

Ok, so that wasn't very quick. Oh well





~Laura

[Chess435]

Oh, no! :smalleek:

Will you get fired?


My boss yelled at me, but I'm fine unless I screw up again.

[Astrella]

@Laura; Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! That's awesome! I'm really happy for you! :smallbiggrin:

[OREO]

Got Check?

Yeah...

Carry on ;o)

[The Succubus]

After waiting for months, I finally got to see the endo at the health clinic that I've started going to that specializes in LGBT, and particularly trans, health. I've gone through a few procedural thing and had blood work done, so next Monday, I'm going back to talk with the doctor about it, and assuming everything goes well, I could actually leave there with both a prescription and hormones, so that's neat. Also, they're really nice people, and actually use Laura instead of my legal name when talking to me. I didn't think it would make as much of a difference to be called "miss" instead of "mister" by doctors and nurses, but it really does. I'm a little nervous but really excited all the same. I also went to see a friend from the trans support group I go to, and I ended up chatting for hours with a bunch of her housemates, which was fun, and might also end up in taking a shopping trip together, so I can have actual outfits and be less horribly afraid.

I'm also feeling a little guilty because I told my parents when I came out that I would try just anti-androgens for a while, but I find that as I spend more time as Laura, I don't have as much doubt that this is what I want to do, and I want to start a low dose of estrogen too, but I feel awful breaking my [informal] promise.

Ok, so that wasn't very quick. Oh well.

~Laura

I know you feel a little guilty about it but when your folks see how happy their daughter is, I'm sure they won't be too annoyed. ^_^


@Laura; Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! That's awesome! I'm really happy for you! :smallbiggrin:

How goes your own treatments? Noticed any changes yet? =)

[Asta Kask]

:smallbiggrin:

What are you doing online anyway? Aren't you supposed to be out and get ****-faced drunk?

[KenderWizard]

I'm a bit ambivalent on classes in feminism, I think this is kind of a problem that taking things like this into an academic context, since it turns actual experiences into sterile things that can be dissected, and that obscures the urgency of the problem with the abstract comfort of armchair philosophy. I'm not really sure how to square the fact that women have vastly more stake and experience with these problems with the need to make consciousness of these problems not just a "women's issue"

We need some of all of it; some academic discourse, some casual discourse, some action, women involved, men involved, the LGBT community weighing in a bit. Like with a lot of these complex social nets of discrimination, we need a multi-pronged attack.



An update on me:

After waiting for months, I finally got to see the endo at the health clinic that I've started going to that specializes in LGBT, and particularly trans, health. I've gone through a few procedural thing and had blood work done, so next Monday, I'm going back to talk with the doctor about it, and assuming everything goes well, I could actually leave there with both a prescription and hormones, so that's neat. Also, they're really nice people, and actually use Laura instead of my legal name when talking to me. I didn't think it would make as much of a difference to be called "miss" instead of "mister" by doctors and nurses, but it really does. I'm a little nervous but really excited all the same. I also went to see a friend from the trans support group I go to, and I ended up chatting for hours with a bunch of her housemates, which was fun, and might also end up in taking a shopping trip together, so I can have actual outfits and be less horribly afraid.

I'm also feeling a little guilty because I told my parents when I came out that I would try just anti-androgens for a while, but I find that as I spend more time as Laura, I don't have as much doubt that this is what I want to do, and I want to start a low dose of estrogen too, but I feel awful breaking my [informal] promise.

Ok, so that wasn't very quick. Oh well




~Laura


Yay for progress! Maybe you could talk to your parents more, let them know how you're feeling and how great it makes you feel to be taking these steps, how right it is. Whether or not you choose to keep them informed of all your medicines, it might help you to keep them in the loop.


What are you doing online anyway? Aren't you supposed to be out and get ****-faced drunk?

Um, no. Today is the traditional day for Irish adults to stay inside to avoid the throngs of drunken tourists and teenagers. I am celebrating my Irishness with a shepherd's pie and a glass (or three) of good whiskey. And maybe I'll watch the Irish mob episode of Leverage. :smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

Yay for progress! Maybe you could talk to your parents more, let them know how you're feeling and how great it makes you feel to be taking these steps, how right it is. Whether or not you choose to keep them informed of all your medicines, it might help you to keep them in the loop.

Could also spare you the embarassment of them finding the pills in your room.

[Coidzor]

My internet doesn't like you today, Coidzor.
Suffice that Phone forming is the good option.

That's strange, usually I have to be physically present to mess up people's internet connections. My apologies. :smallconfused::smallfrown:


Recent example: holding the door for women, or having to fight harder in a divorce to get custody of your children if you're a man. That's not privilege. It may come from privilege, but if you think it's okay to be insulted because you held the door for a woman, then... then you may want to analyze your Internet-user privilege of being able to say that to anyone without risking a verbal or physical beating.

...You have actually run into a person who felt insulted because they chose to hold the door open for someone else? :smallconfused: I've certainly run into people who were insulted because they were cussed out for holding the door open for others or called misogynistic/sexist tools, which is fair enough because those situations actually involve them being insulted. My mind, it boggles at the inanity of it. :smalleek: Also, insanity.


I'm a straight(ish) cisman and I feel like I'm being charged with a crime I didn't even know I was commiting and that if I protest or say I don't understand, I'm just being even more of an *******. I'm cool with men, women, everyone and everything but apparently this isn't enough and merely for being who I am (something I didn't exactly have much say in the matter in) I'm a privileged jerk. And that I'm a privileged jerk for whining about being a privileged jerk.

Now my brain hurts and I feel like crap. :smallfrown:

Honestly asking a fair question is no excuse for jerkishness or dehumanization. You don't even have to do anything *wrong* for your privilege to get brought up, certainly, but most of the people who I've encountered tossing it as a careless buzzword are either too jaded or too misanthropic to care that they're being jerks themselves when someone is honestly trying to digest it.

A lesson I've learned, rightly or not, is that unless you're personally friends with someone and you do it in private, you never ask an internet feminist for information or resources to combat your own ignorance about something, you just have to bite the bullet and delve into the belly of the beast with google as your wingman. Meatspace feminists are usually more reliable anyway, especially as the strawmen are easily identifiable by their casual conversation.

One example of privilege that comes to mind is that, as a man, I am allowed to feel indignant at having been sexually objectified and catcalled at by adult men as a pubescent child and adolescent when all I was trying to do was walk my dog. Women, however, merely have to accept being catcalled and stared at as a fact of life or devote time, energy, and resources to fighting cultural inertia.

When I walk down the street at night, I don't worry about muggers or rapists because I'm large, strong, cocksure and male. They don't even register on my mind unless I'm somehow finding myself in the "wrong part of town," and it's privilege that prevents my full empathy with the racial segregation and socio-economic injustice that encapsulates the essence of such places.

During the day I freely nod my head to and wave at my neighbours and other people in the neighbourhood when I'm walking my dog or even go so far as to say hello, because I have no real conception of ever being harassed as a result of what I think of as being polite. Nor do I have any real conception beyond second-hand accounts of how what I view as a polite greeting to wish a woman a good day and to compliment her on the behavior and appearance of her canine companion is automatically ringing alarm bells in her head.

I admit that I'm probably flubbing the specific language, likely only right in the most general sense where I am right, and that it's almost certainly a mix between my own personal carelessness that you're probably quite familiar with and the privilege of my background.


There is theoretically such a thing as a perfectly privileged person, someone who has _all_ the privileges: white, cis, male, able-bodied, rich, upper class... etc etc.

Theoretically? :smallconfused: I'd have thought that Theodore Roosevelt was a pretty good example myself.

[Mono Vertigo]

...You have actually run into a person who felt insulted because they chose to hold the door open for someone else? :smallconfused: I've certainly run into people who were insulted because they were cussed out for holding the door open for others or called misogynistic/sexist tools, which is fair enough because those situations actually involve them being insulted. My mind, it boggles at the inanity of it. :smalleek: Also, insanity.

In this very thread (well, series of thread), actually, but it was someone that only posted a couple times. One of our resident transwoman said she'd been insulted for holding a door for another woman, while having to present as a man. That person replied "have you checked your male privilege?".
So what I've seen is even worse than the situation I initially described.

There's that list of words I have, where I'm quite okay with the base meaning, but the misuse gets so bad I don't really want to use them anymore. Now, alongside "feminist", there's "privilege". As you can see, I'm still trying to define it in neutral and rational terms, but it looks like the damage is already done.

[KenderWizard]

Honestly asking a fair question is no excuse for jerkishness or dehumanization. You don't even have to do anything *wrong* for your privilege to get brought up, certainly, but most of the people who I've encountered tossing it as a careless buzzword are either too jaded or too misanthropic to care that they're being jerks themselves when someone is honestly trying to digest it.

A lesson I've learned, rightly or not, is that unless you're personally friends with someone and you do it in private, you never ask an internet feminist for information or resources to combat your own ignorance about something, you just have to bite the bullet and delve into the belly of the beast with google as your wingman. Meatspace feminists are usually more reliable anyway, especially as the strawmen are easily identifiable by their casual conversation.

One example of privilege that comes to mind is that, as a man, I am allowed to feel indignant at having been sexually objectified and catcalled at by adult men as a pubescent child and adolescent when all I was trying to do was walk my dog. Women, however, merely have to accept being catcalled and stared at as a fact of life or devote time, energy, and resources to fighting cultural inertia.

When I walk down the street at night, I don't worry about muggers or rapists because I'm large, strong, cocksure and male. They don't even register on my mind unless I'm somehow finding myself in the "wrong part of town," and it's privilege that prevents my full empathy with the racial segregation and socio-economic injustice that encapsulates the essence of such places.

During the day I freely nod my head to and wave at my neighbours and other people in the neighbourhood when I'm walking my dog or even go so far as to say hello, because I have no real conception of ever being harassed as a result of what I think of as being polite. Nor do I have any real conception beyond second-hand accounts of how what I view as a polite greeting to wish a woman a good day and to compliment her on the behavior and appearance of her canine companion is automatically ringing alarm bells in her head.

I admit that I'm probably flubbing the specific language, likely only right in the most general sense where I am right, and that it's almost certainly a mix between my own personal carelessness that you're probably quite familiar with and the privilege of my background.

Your examples are good! It's good to hear the walking-home example from someone who's aware of their privilege from the other side of the fence, as it were.



Theoretically? :smallconfused: I'd have thought that Theodore Roosevelt was a pretty good example myself.

That is a good example! I said "theoretically" because it's true (as opposed to a person who has no privileges, which is not theoretically possible), but it's also true that there exist actual real-life examples of such a person.


In this very thread (well, series of thread), actually, but it was someone that only posted a couple times. One of our resident transwoman said she'd been insulted for holding a door for another woman, while having to present as a man. That person replied "have you checked your male privilege?".
So what I've seen is even worse than the situation I initially described.

There's that list of words I have, where I'm quite okay with the base meaning, but the misuse gets so bad I don't really want to use them anymore. Now, alongside "feminist", there's "privilege". As you can see, I'm still trying to define it in neutral and rational terms, but it looks like the damage is already done.

While the person for whom the door was being held open was not very nice to be on the offensive rather than just saying "thank you", and obviously a lot depends on context and tone of voice and stuff, I don't think "have you checked your male privilege?" is an insult. In this case, it was a very hurtful thing to say to that woman, but it sounds more like an overzealous misunderstanding than a cruelty.


And I know what you mean by feeling fed up with words that end up taking on extra baggage. I think it's worth fighting for words like "feminism" and "privilege", because they're useful and still necessary in our world. But I definitely get where you're coming from.

[Mono Vertigo]

While the person for whom the door was being held open was not very nice to be on the offensive rather than just saying "thank you", and obviously a lot depends on context and tone of voice and stuff, I don't think "have you checked your male privilege?" is an insult. In this case, it was a very hurtful thing to say to that woman, but it sounds more like an overzealous misunderstanding than a cruelty.


And I know what you mean by feeling fed up with words that end up taking on extra baggage. I think it's worth fighting for words like "feminism" and "privilege", because they're useful and still necessary in our world. But I definitely get where you're coming from.
Sorry, I might have been unclear. I don't remember what the ciswoman said precisely when being held the door.
It's the poster in this thread who read the anecdote, and asked about privilege. That was not the insult described in my original post, though I do think it's absurdly missing the mark.

That's why I'm only trying to use them to clarify their actual meaning, but otherwise not in their own context. I hope that's just a fad.
Also, I was half-joking about Internet privilege*, but I might be on to something; feminists and other people concerned by social justice have the opportunity to say a lot more, with a lot less forethought when there are screens between them and their audience. And, inevitably, with the Internet being what it is, you regularly end up with nasty words being spouted in impunity along with the reasonable concepts. Those who only have meatspace to express themselves generally don't have such freedom of speech, and need to be more thoughtful and civil.
Repeatedly saying "check your [male/cis/etc] privilege" works much better on forums. In the worst case, all you have to do is log out forever from there and join another forum to be able to say it again.


*yeah I'm a hypocrite I can't stay coherent for more than one sentence

[Coidzor]

In this very thread (well, series of thread), actually, but it was someone that only posted a couple times. One of our resident transwoman said she'd been insulted for holding a door for another woman, while having to present as a man. That person replied "have you checked your male privilege?".
So what I've seen is even worse than the situation I initially described.

There's that list of words I have, where I'm quite okay with the base meaning, but the misuse gets so bad I don't really want to use them anymore. Now, alongside "feminist", there's "privilege". As you can see, I'm still trying to define it in neutral and rational terms, but it looks like the damage is already done.

If I understand correctly, a transwoman who was presenting as male held the door for a woman and the woman told her that she should check her male privilege because the transwoman held the door open for her? That sounds like the other party insulting the person who held the door open rather than the person feeling insulted for feeling obligated to hold the door open or something similar, which is how I initially interpreted what you said. :smallconfused:


Your examples are good! It's good to hear the walking-home example from someone who's aware of their privilege from the other side of the fence, as it were.

Well, I've come by it honestly(ish?) by having at least some of my ignorance beaten out of me by, IIRC, Serpentine and a few others, such as cycoris and dragonrider when I first became aware of discussions of cat-calling and I shared my own experiences with it and how I was surprised women weren't more violent as a result of their experiences, as I started carrying a weapon between the ages of 11 and 14 whenever I'd walk the dog by myself.


That is a good example! I said "theoretically" because it's true (as opposed to a person who has no privileges, which is not theoretically possible), but it's also true that there exist actual real-life examples of such a person.

Ah, I don't think I'm very familiar with that sense of the word, sorry. I misunderstood you as possibly not thinking that such people existed, which I found a bit strange as my knowledge of you would suggest that you're quite familiar with them and the disproportionate influence they have on our culture. :smallredface:


While the person for whom the door was being held open was not very nice to be on the offensive rather than just saying "thank you", and obviously a lot depends on context and tone of voice and stuff, I don't think "have you checked your male privilege?" is an insult. In this case, it was a very hurtful thing to say to that woman, but it sounds more like an overzealous misunderstanding than a cruelty.

Turning a polite gesture into "My god, how are you so thoughtless?" can very easily be seen as insulting, even if it's not intended to be cruel. I can't speak to the intent of people saying "check your privilege," but my experiences of the context, tone, and way it seems to get interpreted by myself and others is much closer to "check yourself before you wreck yourself," than anything respectfully tendered.

It's a thought that I'm pretty sure needs to be expressed, but I don't think the current phraseology is very useful in the context it seems to most often be applied in, especially as it seems to only be understood by people who are actually knowledgeable about feminist theory to some extent but it's almost never used to address people who are knowledgeable about feminist theory even when it would be appropriate to do so because of the position that, say, an overtly feminist man occupies in a social dynamic and the stereotypical rejection of the possibility of being bad due to being feminist and a man which is ironically also pretty privileged and messed up.

[KenderWizard]

Sorry, I might have been unclear. I don't remember what the ciswoman said precisely when being held the door.
It's the poster in this thread who read the anecdote, and asked about privilege. That was not the insult described in my original post, though I do think it's absurdly missing the mark.

Ahhh, I misinterpreted. I thought the woman held the door and the other woman said "check your male privilege", which was not precisely polite, but more weird to come out of nowhere than insulting. In the context of someone telling a story about how they held a door for someone, and that person was rude to them, and then some third party saying "check your privilege", it was a mean thing to say. I understand now!



That's why I'm only trying to use them to clarify their actual meaning, but otherwise not in their own context. I hope that's just a fad.
Also, I was half-joking about Internet privilege*, but I might be on to something; feminists and other people concerned by social justice have the opportunity to say a lot more, with a lot less forethought when there are screens between them and their audience. And, inevitably, with the Internet being what it is, you regularly end up with nasty words being spouted in impunity along with the reasonable concepts. Those who only have meatspace to express themselves generally don't have such freedom of speech, and need to be more thoughtful and civil.
Repeatedly saying "check your [male/cis/etc] privilege" works much better on forums. In the worst case, all you have to do is log out forever from there and join another forum to be able to say it again.


*yeah I'm a hypocrite I can't stay coherent for more than one sentence

Well, it is true that anyone who's on the internet has some privilege of money and time and electricity and technology, so in that way, yes. It's not only a feminist thing. On the other side, people who might listen irl might backlash without fully considering on the net.



Ah, I don't think I'm very familiar with that sense of the word, sorry. I misunderstood you as possibly not thinking that such people existed, which I found a bit strange as my knowledge of you would suggest that you're quite familiar with them and the disproportionate influence they have on our culture. :smallredface:

Gotcha. I probably could have been more clear!

[QUOTE=Coidzor;14913542]
Turning a polite gesture into "My god, how are you so thoughtless?" can very easily be seen as insulting, even if it's not intended to be cruel. I can't speak to the intent of people saying "check your privilege," but my experiences of the context, tone, and way it seems to get interpreted by myself and others is much closer to "check yourself before you wreck yourself," than anything respectfully tendered.

It's a thought that I'm pretty sure needs to be expressed, but I don't think the current phraseology is very useful in the context it seems to most often be applied in, especially as it seems to only be understood by people who are actually knowledgeable about feminist theory to some extent but it's almost never used to address people who are knowledgeable about feminist theory even when it would be appropriate to do so because of the position that, say, an overtly feminist man occupies in a social dynamic and the stereotypical rejection of the possibility of being bad due to being feminist and a man which is ironically also pretty privileged and messed up.

Yes, it's a tricky one. I personally hope it becomes more widely understood in its non-attacking form and we (feminists, LGBT-rights people, general anti-discrimination people) can use it as another tool to explain this stuff to people. But I definitely see the problems with it and the aggressive tone it's often associated with.

[noparlpf]

An update on me:

After waiting for months, I finally got to see the endo at the health clinic that I've started going to that specializes in LGBT, and particularly trans, health. I've gone through a few procedural thing and had blood work done, so next Monday, I'm going back to talk with the doctor about it, and assuming everything goes well, I could actually leave there with both a prescription and hormones, so that's neat. Also, they're really nice people, and actually use Laura instead of my legal name when talking to me. I didn't think it would make as much of a difference to be called "miss" instead of "mister" by doctors and nurses, but it really does. I'm a little nervous but really excited all the same. I also went to see a friend from the trans support group I go to, and I ended up chatting for hours with a bunch of her housemates, which was fun, and might also end up in taking a shopping trip together, so I can have actual outfits and be less horribly afraid.

I'm also feeling a little guilty because I told my parents when I came out that I would try just anti-androgens for a while, but I find that as I spend more time as Laura, I don't have as much doubt that this is what I want to do, and I want to start a low dose of estrogen too, but I feel awful breaking my promise.

Ok, so that wasn't very quick. Oh well




~Laura

That sounds pretty good. Congrats.


Honestly asking a fair question is no excuse for jerkishness or dehumanization. You don't even have to do anything *wrong* for your privilege to get brought up, certainly, but most of the people who I've encountered tossing it as a careless buzzword are either too jaded or too misanthropic to care that they're being jerks themselves when someone is honestly trying to digest it.

A lesson I've learned, rightly or not, is that unless you're personally friends with someone and you do it in private, you [I]never ask an internet feminist for information or resources to combat your own ignorance about something, you just have to bite the bullet and delve into the belly of the beast with google as your wingman. Meatspace feminists are usually more reliable anyway, especially as the strawmen are easily identifiable by their casual conversation.

One example of privilege that comes to mind is that, as a man, I am allowed to feel indignant at having been sexually objectified and catcalled at by adult men as a pubescent child and adolescent when all I was trying to do was walk my dog. Women, however, merely have to accept being catcalled and stared at as a fact of life or devote time, energy, and resources to fighting cultural inertia.

When I walk down the street at night, I don't worry about muggers or rapists because I'm large, strong, cocksure and male. They don't even register on my mind unless I'm somehow finding myself in the "wrong part of town," and it's privilege that prevents my full empathy with the racial segregation and socio-economic injustice that encapsulates the essence of such places.

During the day I freely nod my head to and wave at my neighbours and other people in the neighbourhood when I'm walking my dog or even go so far as to say hello, because I have no real conception of ever being harassed as a result of what I think of as being polite. Nor do I have any real conception beyond second-hand accounts of how what I view as a polite greeting to wish a woman a good day and to compliment her on the behavior and appearance of her canine companion is automatically ringing alarm bells in her head.

I admit that I'm probably flubbing the specific language, likely only right in the most general sense where I am right, and that it's almost certainly a mix between my own personal carelessness that you're probably quite familiar with and the privilege of my background.

That mostly sounds pretty familiar. Although I worry anytime I'm anywhere at night or in public because I'm a bit anxious. I don't think that counts.


In this very thread (well, series of thread), actually, but it was someone that only posted a couple times. One of our resident transwoman said she'd been insulted for holding a door for another woman, while having to present as a man. That person replied "have you checked your male privilege?".
So what I've seen is even worse than the situation I initially described.

There's that list of words I have, where I'm quite okay with the base meaning, but the misuse gets so bad I don't really want to use them anymore. Now, alongside "feminist", there's "privilege". As you can see, I'm still trying to define it in neutral and rational terms, but it looks like the damage is already done.

I don't think I've ever been directly insulted for holding a door for somebody or offering to carry something (I've offered to help both men and women carry things). I have however been indirectly insulted by feminists in classes or discussions when they say things like "men who hold the door for women are misogynistic asses" or similar.

[Saposhiente]

(as opposed to a person who has no privileges, which is not theoretically possible)

This too is possible, and in fact common. They're called dead people. :smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

This too is possible, and in fact common. They're called dead people. :smalltongue:

But it's considered worse to speak badly of the dead than to speak badly of the living. Dead privilege.

[Sparkify]

In this very thread (well, series of thread), actually, but it was someone that only posted a couple times. One of our resident transwoman said she'd been insulted for holding a door for another woman, while having to present as a man. That person replied "have you checked your male privilege?".
So what I've seen is even worse than the situation I initially described.

There's that list of words I have, where I'm quite okay with the base meaning, but the misuse gets so bad I don't really want to use them anymore. Now, alongside "feminist", there's "privilege". As you can see, I'm still trying to define it in neutral and rational terms, but it looks like the damage is already done.

Well no, actually, you're remembering it completely wrong. She didn't say anything about presenting as a man, and I didn't specify male privilege.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272099&postcount=580

[Absol197]

Any meteor hammer or nine section chain?

No meteor hammer that I've seen, but how could I have forgotten chain whip! ...Oh, right, because I don't have one yet!


Exciting! Is it a 'taste of each style' or a 'master them all' sort of thing?

It's sorta both. When one just starts at our school, we teach the basics of a couple styles. As we advance, we go more in depth, and then add additional styles and weapons. The choice of how much to pursue specific styles is left up to us; I myself am focusing mostly on drunken like I said, because it's fun and I think I'll become a better martial artist by trying to get one style down first before seriously focusing on another.


An update on me:

After waiting for months, I finally got to see the endo at the health clinic that I've started going to that specializes in LGBT, and particularly trans, health. I've gone through a few procedural thing and had blood work done, so next Monday, I'm going back to talk with the doctor about it, and assuming everything goes well, I could actually leave there with both a prescription and hormones, so that's neat. Also, they're really nice people, and actually use Laura instead of my legal name when talking to me. I didn't think it would make as much of a difference to be called "miss" instead of "mister" by doctors and nurses, but it really does. I'm a little nervous but really excited all the same. I also went to see a friend from the trans support group I go to, and I ended up chatting for hours with a bunch of her housemates, which was fun, and might also end up in taking a shopping trip together, so I can have actual outfits and be less horribly afraid.

I'm also feeling a little guilty because I told my parents when I came out that I would try just anti-androgens for a while, but I find that as I spend more time as Laura, I don't have as much doubt that this is what I want to do, and I want to start a low dose of estrogen too, but I feel awful breaking my [informal] promise.

Ok, so that wasn't very quick. Oh well



~Laura


Eeeeeeee![/copyingLena]

Yay for progress! Best of luck on your adventure into HRT!


How goes your own treatments? Noticed any changes yet? =)

Yes, Lena! Tell us! We're curious...


I don't think I've ever been directly insulted for holding a door for somebody or offering to carry something (I've offered to help both men and women carry things). I have however been indirectly insulted by feminists in classes or discussions when they say things like "men who hold the door for women are misogynistic asses" or similar.

The whole situation just sits uncomfortably with me. If we were to use the same cirteria for the lady who had the door held for her, we'd need to ask her, "Have you checked your cis-priviledge?" And getting into that back and forth really gets us nowhere.

I myself am really uncomfortable with the idea of priviledge. Not because it isn't a worthwhile thing to think about (this entire process has been very eye-opening for me), but because humans have a tendancy to turn things into weapons, and the idea of priviledge seems precariously easy to do that with. Infact, as others have mentioned, it already has been by some people. And maybe the fact that the first I heard of the term was with that connotation that has soured me on it...

I mean, the insinuation the woman gave with that comment in that story is just...How the [REDACTED] does she know that the person holding the door for her doesn't do that for everyone, as part of an attempt to be a good person and to help her fellow human beings through the common struggle we all share called "life"?

I mean, a personal story: I was going into the store earlier today, and I saw an old woman coming out who was having trouble with her cart - a stack of moving boxes she had bought kept falling off. So I went over to help put them back on, and when I saw that the way they were situated wasn't going to work well, I quickly came up with another way to position them that was much more stable. So, was I an ass operating under my "male" priviledge, assisting the weak and helpless female? Maybe my age priviledge, because I'm younger and more fit? Or my able-bodied priviledge? Or intelligence? Or did I just see another human being who was having difficulties and try to help them as best I could?

I'm sorry, It's not you guys I'm mad at. I know that you guys here don't think about priviledge that way, and are actually trying to make the idea a constructive one to work towards a more understanding humanity. It's just like I said, the idea seems too easy to turn into another weapon of hate, and we already have too many of those...


~Phee~

EDIT: On a lighter note, tomorrow (Monday) is my first birthday as a woman (well, knowing that I am, at least)! I haven't figured out what I'm going to do to celebrate that fact yet; I'll think of something, I'm sure. But it nice to actually know who I am on my birthday, that's for sure :smallsmile: .

[Coidzor]

The whole situation just sits uncomfortably with me. If we were to use the same cirteria for the lady who had the door held for her, we'd need to ask her, "Have you checked your cis-priviledge?" And getting into that back and forth really gets us nowhere.

Which suggests that it's not a very useful thing to say on its own.



Well no, actually, you're remembering it completely wrong. She didn't say anything about presenting as a man, and I didn't specify male privilege.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272099&postcount=580



Hmm, that answers the relatively straightforward question as to what the scenario was, but raises much more interesting ones in its place. Such as what privilege that would be, then.

Link doesn't seem to work, try this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14771008&postcount=580).



I myself am really uncomfortable with the idea of priviledge. Not because it isn't a worthwhile thing to think about (this entire process has been very eye-opening for me), but because humans have a tendancy to turn things into weapons, and the idea of priviledge seems precariously easy to do that with.

On the other hand, we can't really turn a blind eye to when people are acting inappropriately or the problems that need to be addressed in the world around us. We also can't really ignore the persuasive and informative elements of communication in favor of only talking with those who already agree with us or more or less meaningless noise with those who do not. Part of the problem is that people don't argue so much as just argue for the sake of fighting one another.


Infact, as others have mentioned, it already has been by some people. And maybe the fact that the first I heard of the term was with that connotation that has soured me on it...

Some idiots give feminism a bad name, a cursory examination of current events suggests that we've still got work to do. The answer is not to abandon feminism on either the ideological level or the term itself, but to minimize the market share and noise created by the people who are real-life straw feminists.


I'm sorry, It's not you guys I'm mad at. I know that you guys here don't think about priviledge that way, and are actually trying to make the idea a constructive one to work towards a more understanding humanity. It's just like I said, the idea seems too easy to turn into another weapon of hate, and we already have too many of those...

Hatred and bitterness breed further hatred and bitterness regardless of what words are used.

[noparlpf]

Whee, more schools targeting rape survivors (http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/college-rape-victim-faces-expulsion-speaking-out) and other victims and letting the criminals go. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/25/unc-sexual-assault-survivor_n_2760097.html)

Edit: Another article about UNC (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/16/unc-sexual-assault_n_2488383.html) and this stuff.
And another. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/annie-e-clark/rape-is-like-a-football-g_b_2769576.html)

I think before I get any further into this I'm going to go watch the Railgun OVA and eat cinnamon buns and have a cider. Yes.

[Kittenwolf]

Forget hang-gliding or jumping off a cliff into a river, coming out to your mother: FAR more bloody terrifying

Went reasonably well though

[TaiLiu]

Forget hang-gliding or jumping off a cliff into a river, coming out to your mother: FAR more bloody terrifying

Went reasonably well though

Joy! Mind sharing the specifics? :smallsmile:

[SiuiS]

I've also had the opposite, interestingly.
Me: I find Hallowe'en to be difficult because young women are put under some pressure to do "sexy" outfits and then if you do, you're a "slut".
Man: I don't think women are put under pressure to have sexy outfits. I have friends who wear sexy Hallowe'en outfits and they never told me that they felt they "had" to.
Me: Well, maybe they did feel it and didn't tell you. I've felt it, and I'm a young woman. You wouldn't have felt it cause you're a man.
Man: You can't shut me down like that! I can contribute to this conversation too! What, just cause I'm a man, my opinions on this aren't any good?!
Me: :smalleek: :smallconfused: :smallfrown: (Then I cried. It wasn't good.)


I know it doesn't help now, but there is a clear answer: no, sir, your opinion doesn't count.

Or more politely, I know you have your own opinion, but it is not an educated one. In the same way that an automobile mechanic has a more valid opinion on automobiles than a Sunday school teacher, or that an author has a more valid opinion on his own works than a carpenter does, I, as a woman who has gone through these experiences have a more valid opinion than you do. My opinion is based off of and relays fact; factual happenings, factually verifiable progression from them. Your opinion is just an opinion. Where the two clash, the more valid – the more educated – opinion holds sway.


I'm a bit ambivalent on classes in feminism, I think this is kind of a problem that taking things like this into an academic context, since it turns actual experiences into sterile things that can be dissected, and that obscures the urgency of the problem with the abstract comfort of armchair philosophy. I'm not really sure how to square the fact that women have vastly more stake and experience with these problems with the need to make consciousness of these problems not just a "women's issue"

Huh. I had not thought of it lie that. A fine line, indeed.



An update on me:

After waiting for months, I finally got to see the endo at the health clinic that I've started going to that specializes in LGBT, and particularly trans, health. I've gone through a few procedural thing and had blood work done, so next Monday, I'm going back to talk with the doctor about it, and assuming everything goes well, I could actually leave there with both a prescription and hormones, so that's neat. Also, they're really nice people, and actually use Laura instead of my legal name when talking to me. I didn't think it would make as much of a difference to be called "miss" instead of "mister" by doctors and nurses, but it really does. I'm a little nervous but really excited all the same. I also went to see a friend from the trans support group I go to, and I ended up chatting for hours with a bunch of her housemates, which was fun, and might also end up in taking a shopping trip together, so I can have actual outfits and be less horribly afraid.

I'm also feeling a little guilty because I told my parents when I came out that I would try just anti-androgens for a while, but I find that as I spend more time as Laura, I don't have as much doubt that this is what I want to do, and I want to start a low dose of estrogen too, but I feel awful breaking my [informal] promise.

Ok, so that wasn't very quick. Oh well




Congratulations!

I would say, talk to them bout it. You did promise, but also the situation has changed.


What are you doing online anyway? Aren't you supposed to be out and get ****-faced drunk?

Oh! Hey yeah, is that an Irish holiday or an American Irish holiday?


In this very thread (well, series of thread), actually, but it was someone that only posted a couple times. One of our resident transwoman said she'd been insulted for holding a door for another woman, while having to present as a man. That person replied "have you checked your male privilege?".
So what I've seen is even worse than the situation I initially described.

There's that list of words I have, where I'm quite okay with the base meaning, but the misuse gets so bad I don't really want to use them anymore. Now, alongside "feminist", there's "privilege". As you can see, I'm still trying to define it in neutral and rational terms, but it looks like the damage is already done.

This is the crux of the issue. I feel the key would be to be an example, though. Use them properly, promulgate an appropriate understanding. Be aware you may insult people by accident, and be ready to not only point out the misunderstanding but in a way that educates them on how you used the word.



Well, it is true that anyone who's on the internet has some privilege of money and time and electricity and technology, so in that way, yes. It's not only a feminist thing. On the other side, people who might listen irl might backlash without fully considering on the net.

I think you are falling into the trap of using a word by its luggage handles an not definition, luv.

Internet access isn't privelege (though it is a privelege in some ways). If we are going off the definition of your privelege being that which is inherent to you on a societal level, then... I earned my Internet. I saved, ate ramen instead of food for a month and a half to get a computer, and then balanced my weekly budget on a knife's edge to afford a connection. That not privilege, that the fruit of my labor. You could say that I live in the first world, and so I have first world privelege, but that requires a level I abstraction that's not relevant to the conversation; it's a technicality and tangent that can only derail things. It also belies the number of people living in second or third world industrious in first world countries.

I think this is a consequence of using privelege in so specific a context all the time, while also maintaining your understanding of the we'd in normal English. It's best to consider them homophones with related etymology, than the same word though. If the point of Privelege is that it's something you're born into and have no control over but that gives you an advantage, then lumping in something you've worked for and earned just teaches people to be ashamed I succeeding, and that's silly.


But it's considered worse to speak badly of the dead than to speak badly of the living. Dead privilege.

Nah, that's "don't talk about someone behind their back" with the implication that you don't talk ill of someone unless they can defend themselves. The dead just happen to be in that category, but it's not a dead privilege.

Goodness, how the bloody hell do you spell that word?!
Privelege? Privilege? They're both "right"! Argh!



No meteor hammer that I've seen, but how could I have forgotten chain whip! ...Oh, right, because I don't have one yet!
[/auote]

Oh. Well, enjoy your bone bruises when you get one! :3
Crazy fun though. Really it is. And! You'll have better trainin than some physics textbooks and YouTube videos!

[quote]
I myself am really uncomfortable with the idea of priviledge. Not because it isn't a worthwhile thing to think about (this entire process has been very eye-opening for me), but because humans have a tendancy to turn things into weapons, and the idea of priviledge seems precariously easy to do that with. Infact, as others have mentioned, it already has been by some people. And maybe the fact that the first I heard of the term was with that connotation that has soured me on it...

I mean, the insinuation the woman gave with that comment in that story is just...How the [REDACTED] does she know that the person holding the door for her doesn't do that for everyone, as part of an attempt to be a good person and to help her fellow human beings through the common struggle we all share called "life"?

I mean, a personal story: I was going into the store earlier today, and I saw an old woman coming out who was having trouble with her cart - a stack of moving boxes she had bought kept falling off. So I went over to help put them back on, and when I saw that the way they were situated wasn't going to work well, I quickly came up with another way to position them that was much more stable. So, was I an ass operating under my "male" priviledge, assisting the weak and helpless female? Maybe my age priviledge, because I'm younger and more fit? Or my able-bodied priviledge? Or intelligence? Or did I just see another human being who was having difficulties and try to help them as best I could?

I'm sorry, It's not you guys I'm mad at. I know that you guys here don't think about priviledge that way, and are actually trying to make the idea a constructive one to work towards a more understanding humanity. It's just like I said, the idea seems too easy to turn into another weapon of hate, and we already have too many of those...

aye. I hold doors open because it's a hassle-saver in general and I want more people to hold doors for me. It backfired though; I had a lady once get mad at me for not saying thank you when she got a door for me. With I could go back as handle that better...


EDIT: On a lighter note, tomorrow (Monday) is my first birthday as a woman (well, knowing that I am, at least)! I haven't figured out what I'm going to do to celebrate that fact yet; I'll think of something, I'm sure. But it nice to actually know who I am on my birthday, that's for sure :smallsmile: .

Sleep over!
I dunno. Sounds good in my head >_>;

[Coidzor]

SiuiS: I'm only getting privilege as correct in my spellchecks and the dictionary entries I've checked via googling for "privelege" redirect to "privilege."

Are you asking if it is a holiday in the Republic of Ireland as well as in the U.S.A. or if it's celebrated the same way in Ireland as in the U.S.?

[SiuiS]

SiuiS: I'm only getting privilege as correct in my spellchecks and the dictionary entries I've checked via googling for "privelege" redirect to "privilege."

Good enough for me!


Are you asking if it is a holiday in the Republic of Ireland as well as in the U.S.A. or if it's celebrated the same way in Ireland as in the U.S.?

Yes.

Saint Patrick's Day is one of those things that seemingly defines The American Irish "plastic paddy". It's like begorrah as a word, or corned beef hash. It's a holiday with seemingly no real basis, and I'd I am to understand my greens and oranges, an the nature of the conflicts which just recently ended(?), ten as a holiday it sounds like a terrible invitation to what amounts to terrorist assault.

All of which basically means my understanding of the holiday as it exists outside my own country – my own county, even! – needs to start from a blank slate.

Also, Kender's statement prior makes it sound like American tourists all show up and make plots of themselves, and the youth joins in because being a butt is what youth does. That sort Of implies it's a foreign holiday, imported.

[Asta Kask]

SiuiS: I'm only getting privilege as correct in my spellchecks and the dictionary entries I've checked via googling for "privelege" redirect to "privilege."

I have a good toilet. I am privyleged.

[The Succubus]

I have a good balcony outside my window. I am priviledged.

[Sparkify]

So it's my 19th birthday today. I'm so disappointed in myself. So so disappointed. I was hoping to come out, go to a gender therapist, and start hormones while I was 18, and instead I was just really lazy. All my family is gushing over how I'm such a well adjusted X, and I just want to scream at them.

And I have my first therapist appointment tomorrow, I don't even know if I want to go anymore. It would just confirm my self-loathing and depression. And if I have to pay for it, my parents would find out. My family doesn't take mental health very seriously. One of my aunts was raped as a girl and basically has severe PTSD and depression stemming from that, and no one in my family talks to her. I don't want to become that :S

[Astrella]

So it's my 19th birthday today. I'm so disappointed in myself. So so disappointed. I was hoping to come out, go to a gender therapist, and start hormones while I was 18, and instead I was just really lazy. All my family is gushing over how I'm such a well adjusted X, and I just want to scream at them.

And I have my first therapist appointment tomorrow, I don't even know if I want to go anymore. It would just confirm my self-loathing and depression. And if I have to pay for it, my parents would find out. My family doesn't take mental health very seriously. One of my aunts was raped as a girl and basically has severe PTSD and depression stemming from that, and no one in my family talks to her. I don't want to become that :S

Please go. Letting your bad feelings fester is not going to help. And you can talk about your parents finding out with your therapist, I'm sure it could be billed under general counseling or something like that if it's not already covered. But at least go have a poke around.

[Lea Plath]

Sorry, not been free for a while.


I've been particularly conscious of my cis-privilege status, specifically involving bathrooms and awkward conversations, and my able-bodied-privilege, particularly involving access to buildings, lately. It's an interesting way of viewing the world, and of seeing and trying to come up with solutions to problems.

I'm looking at going into Social Care at the moment, so I have to do this a lot @.@ And then you have the problem of social models of disability and that fun stuff.


Well, this weekend has done wonders for my confidence in my passability. Three or four people have not only clocked me, but felt the need to comment upon it publicly. Not happy.

Maybe post some pictures of you in the outfits you wore when you got clocked? We could give some feedback.

So does anyone else here read Rain and When She Was Bad? I'm loving both this comics at the moment.

[Asta Kask]

So it's my 19th birthday today. I'm so disappointed in myself. So so disappointed. I was hoping to come out, go to a gender therapist, and start hormones while I was 18, and instead I was just really lazy. All my family is gushing over how I'm such a well adjusted X, and I just want to scream at them.

And I have my first therapist appointment tomorrow, I don't even know if I want to go anymore. It would just confirm my self-loathing and depression. And if I have to pay for it, my parents would find out. My family doesn't take mental health very seriously. One of my aunts was raped as a girl and basically has severe PTSD and depression stemming from that, and no one in my family talks to her. I don't want to become that :S

I'd say they take mental health too seriously, but that's another matter.

I agree with Astrella - go.

Make your choice, adventurous Stranger
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad
What would have followed if you had

Not that I think there's a significant danger, but still.

[The Succubus]

My family doesn't take mental health very seriously. One of my aunts was raped as a girl and basically has severe PTSD and depression stemming from that, and no one in my family talks to her. I don't want to become that :S

And that is exactly why you should go, hun:

* Someone that takes mental health seriously - check
* Someone that can help you with depression stuff - check
* Above all - *someone you can talk to* - check

I know from my work in hospital that a lot of our treatments are phrased in such a way as to respect the privacy of the patient and any good gender therapist will be aware of this. It's something you can raise with them - they won't be offended. :smallsmile:

[Eirala]

So does anyone else here read Rain and When She Was Bad? I'm loving both this comics at the moment.

Until now i just read Rain, which is awesome being a transwoman myself. I'll check out When She Was Bad right now.

[Asta Kask]

I'm exploring my Being Alive-privilege by reading the Walking Dead.

CNN fails in rape case (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MvUdyNko8LQ)

Not LGBTA-related, but wth...

They raped a girl! Their fates are tragic, yes, but there's an easy way not to get accused for rape - don't do it*! How difficult can it be? I manage to go months, even years without raping anyone! It's not hard. Just... don't. do. it.

And CNN harping on the effects on the two young men... what about the effects on the girl? What about her suffering? What about her future? What about the social stigma that people will attach to her - that she deserved it for being drunk? That she led those two fine young men astray with her wanton ways? And possibly the trauma of an abortion or unwanted child?

This will haunt them for the rest of their lives? Good. I have no sympathy for them.

*this is true to a first approximation.

[Astrella]

Until now i just read Rain, which is awesome being a transwoman myself. I'll check out When She Was Bad right now.

Venus Envy is also a pretty good trans-related comic.

[SiuiS]

Please go. Letting your bad feelings fester is not going to help. And you can talk about your parents finding out with your therapist, I'm sure it could be billed under general counseling or something like that if it's not already covered. But at least go have a poke around.

All these things, here. You should go.


Venus Envy is also a pretty good trans-related comic.

man, I need to like, get a separate bookmark folder. Never heard of – or even looked for – any of these @.@

Oh hey, Monday! Rain should update! *skips off*

[Astrella]

man, I need to like, get a separate bookmark folder. Never heard of – or even looked for – any of these @.@

Oh hey, Monday! Rain should update! *skips off*

I posted a link to a reddit thread filled with queer webcomics in I think the last thread? I could dig it up if you want.

[noparlpf]

Oh! Hey yeah, is that an Irish holiday or an American Irish holiday?

My town doesn't have a particularly high concentration of Irish-descended people that I'm aware of and they closed off the main road for a bloody parade yesterday.


Goodness, how the bloody hell do you spell that word?!
Privelege? Privilege? They're both "right"! Argh!

It's "privilege". That's the only way to spell it in any English as far as I'm aware.


I have a good toilet. I am privyleged.


I have a good balcony outside my window. I am priviledged.

I laughed.


So it's my 19th birthday today. I'm so disappointed in myself. So so disappointed. I was hoping to come out, go to a gender therapist, and start hormones while I was 18, and instead I was just really lazy. All my family is gushing over how I'm such a well adjusted X, and I just want to scream at them.

And I have my first therapist appointment tomorrow, I don't even know if I want to go anymore. It would just confirm my self-loathing and depression. And if I have to pay for it, my parents would find out. My family doesn't take mental health very seriously. One of my aunts was raped as a girl and basically has severe PTSD and depression stemming from that, and no one in my family talks to her. I don't want to become that :S

Definitely go. Just because your family is unsupportive and kind of dysfunctional (mental health is a big deal, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away) doesn't mean you should have to ignore your own wellbeing.


CNN fails in rape case (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MvUdyNko8LQ)

Not LGBTA-related, but wth...

They raped a girl! Their fates are tragic, yes, but there's an easy way not to get accused for rape - don't do it*! How difficult can it be? I manage to go months, even years without raping anyone! It's not hard. Just... don't. do. it.

And CNN harping on the effects on the two young men... what about the effects on the girl? What about her suffering? What about her future? What about the social stigma that people will attach to her - that she deserved it for being drunk? That she led those two fine young men astray with her wanton ways? And possibly the trauma of an abortion or unwanted child?

This will haunt them for the rest of their lives? Good. I have no sympathy for them.

*this is true to a first approximation.

>:|
More of this ****. "Oh, those poor boys, the guilty verdict ruined their lives." Um, no. They ruined their lives. And somebody else's, too. Is anybody worrying about this poor girl? What happened to her isn't even comparable to a year or two in jail and being registered as a sex offender.

[KenderWizard]

But it's considered worse to speak badly of the dead than to speak badly of the living. Dead privilege.

Nice.




I'm sorry, It's not you guys I'm mad at. I know that you guys here don't think about priviledge that way, and are actually trying to make the idea a constructive one to work towards a more understanding humanity. It's just like I said, the idea seems too easy to turn into another weapon of hate, and we already have too many of those...


But _anything_ can be turned around and used as a weapon, more or less. Privilege is a useful concept, and just because some people mess up the definition or use it to attack people they were going to attack anyway, doesn't mean we should just abandon it. Otherwise we'd have nothing! I'm a socialist. Just because some people say "That Obama, he's a dirty _socialist_!" with disgust -- when he is not a socialist -- doesn't mean I'm going to say "Oh, well, they took that word from me and now I can't use it to mean what it actually means, or people might think I'm insulting someone." It's _the right word_ for me. Same with feminist. And same with using "privilege".


I know it doesn't help now, but there is a clear answer: no, sir, your opinion doesn't count.

Or more politely, I know you have your own opinion, but it is not an educated one. In the same way that an automobile mechanic has a more valid opinion on automobiles than a Sunday school teacher, or that an author has a more valid opinion on his own works than a carpenter does, I, as a woman who has gone through these experiences have a more valid opinion than you do. My opinion is based off of and relays fact; factual happenings, factually verifiable progression from them. Your opinion is just an opinion. Where the two clash, the more valid – the more educated – opinion holds sway.

That's more or less what I was saying (I paraphrased the exchange to make it shorter) and that was exactly why he kicked up a fuss. He did not accept that my opinion on what a young woman might experience could be more valid than his view as a man.



I think you are falling into the trap of using a word by its luggage handles an not definition, luv.

Internet access isn't privelege (though it is a privelege in some ways). If we are going off the definition of your privelege being that which is inherent to you on a societal level, then... I earned my Internet. I saved, ate ramen instead of food for a month and a half to get a computer, and then balanced my weekly budget on a knife's edge to afford a connection. That not privilege, that the fruit of my labor. You could say that I live in the first world, and so I have first world privelege, but that requires a level I abstraction that's not relevant to the conversation; it's a technicality and tangent that can only derail things. It also belies the number of people living in second or third world industrious in first world countries.

I think this is a consequence of using privelege in so specific a context all the time, while also maintaining your understanding of the we'd in normal English. It's best to consider them homophones with related etymology, than the same word though. If the point of Privelege is that it's something you're born into and have no control over but that gives you an advantage, then lumping in something you've worked for and earned just teaches people to be ashamed I succeeding, and that's silly.


I should have been more clear about that. Internet access is like a secondary level. It's not that some people are born with it and some people aren't, like being cis or being white. It's more like wealth. Some people are born wealthy and some people work really really hard and save up a lot of money. Both of those people have "wealth" privilege - they can afford what they need and want, they can pay their hospital bills, they can support their kids. The second person is probably more aware that it is a privilege, but it's still there, they still have the stuff society gives them for being rich. We don't get much from society for being internet-connected (but we do get some stuff, talk to the people who aren't on the internet, which includes 25% of Irish people), but being on the internet also implies a baseline level of wealth and first-world-ness.

I didn't mean to imply internet was something some people just "got" and other people didn't, or to hurt your feelings.



Saint Patrick's Day is one of those things that seemingly defines The American Irish "plastic paddy". It's like begorrah as a word, or corned beef hash. It's a holiday with seemingly no real basis, and I'd I am to understand my greens and oranges, an the nature of the conflicts which just recently ended(?), ten as a holiday it sounds like a terrible invitation to what amounts to terrorist assault.

All of which basically means my understanding of the holiday as it exists outside my own country – my own county, even! – needs to start from a blank slate.

Also, Kender's statement prior makes it sound like American tourists all show up and make plots of themselves, and the youth joins in because being a butt is what youth does. That sort Of implies it's a foreign holiday, imported.

Ah, okay, let me explain!

St Patrick's Day was always an Irish celebration, with the parades and a special Mass, and drinks. It went to America with all the emigrants, and everywhere else as well, and stayed more or less the same (parade + alcohol is kind of a hard thing to mess up). Plus green.

It's not a sectarian thing, thank goodness. It's just a bit of a shindig, it was never associated with the Troubles. It's not a celebration against the British, it's not a celebration of the Irish State, it's just a celebration of a kind of "Irishness".

Most people I know might wear some green (I understand in America people pinch people who don't wear green - this is stupid and childish and doesn't happen here) or wear a sprig of shamrock. ALL our politicians except the President leave and go to different countries, the Taoiseach and Tainiste go to America, and then they go down in importance; Britain, France, Australia, etc, to go to different St Patrick's Day events. Lots of people go to the parade. Then most people go home because the place is overrun with drunk young people and tourists. We get the day off work/school and people still go to Mass for it.

[monkyman640]

All these things, here. You should go.



man, I need to like, get a separate bookmark folder. Never heard of – or even looked for – any of these @.@

Oh hey, Monday! Rain should update! *skips off*

I use http://piperka.net to keep track of my webcomics. It usually shows an update a couple hours after the comic does. It doesn't have all webcomics, but its got a lot, like 5k+.

[Kindablue]

I think you are falling into the trap of using a word by its luggage handles an not definition, luv.

Internet access isn't privelege (though it is a privelege in some ways). If we are going off the definition of your privelege being that which is inherent to you on a societal level, then... I earned my Internet. I saved, ate ramen instead of food for a month and a half to get a computer, and then balanced my weekly budget on a knife's edge to afford a connection. That not privilege, that the fruit of my labor. You could say that I live in the first world, and so I have first world privelege, but that requires a level I abstraction that's not relevant to the conversation; it's a technicality and tangent that can only derail things. It also belies the number of people living in second or third world industrious in first world countries.

I think this is a consequence of using privelege in so specific a context all the time, while also maintaining your understanding of the we'd in normal English. It's best to consider them homophones with related etymology, than the same word though. If the point of Privelege is that it's something you're born into and have no control over but that gives you an advantage, then lumping in something you've worked for and earned just teaches people to be ashamed I succeeding, and that's silly.


I saw a play called Good People recently—about a man and a woman who had a fling as teens in lower class Boston meeting up again in their 50s. Mike is a wealthy doctor now and Margie just got fired from a retail job where she got payed less than Mike pays the teenager who babysits his kids. Mike is definitely more privileged than Margie, even though his comfortable life wasn't handed to him, and he worked hard for it. Everyone read Harrison Bergeron in middle school, and though life isn't as simple as "some people are just better," life is uneven terrian, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with living on a hill. If you have Internet access, you do have that over most people in the world, regardless of how or why you have it.

As an aside, I hate "first world problems," but mostly because the Cold War ended twenty years ago.

[Mina Kobold]

So it's my 19th birthday today. I'm so disappointed in myself. So so disappointed. I was hoping to come out, go to a gender therapist, and start hormones while I was 18, and instead I was just really lazy. All my family is gushing over how I'm such a well adjusted X, and I just want to scream at them.

And I have my first therapist appointment tomorrow, I don't even know if I want to go anymore. It would just confirm my self-loathing and depression. And if I have to pay for it, my parents would find out. My family doesn't take mental health very seriously. One of my aunts was raped as a girl and basically has severe PTSD and depression stemming from that, and no one in my family talks to her. I don't want to become that :S

It is ultimately you who can decide if it is worth going, but mental health is very important, no matter how much your parents want to live in denial. A therapist can be a help and a source of expertise, which can be thoroughly helpful in getting further. Trying to do everything despite a family who want to shut out anyone different is brave, but you don't have to be completely alone. We are here for you, and so will your therapist be. :smallsmile:


CNN fails in rape case (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MvUdyNko8LQ)

Not LGBTA-related, but wth...

They raped a girl! Their fates are tragic, yes, but there's an easy way not to get accused for rape - don't do it*! How difficult can it be? I manage to go months, even years without raping anyone! It's not hard. Just... don't. do. it.

And CNN harping on the effects on the two young men... what about the effects on the girl? What about her suffering? What about her future? What about the social stigma that people will attach to her - that she deserved it for being drunk? That she led those two fine young men astray with her wanton ways? And possibly the trauma of an abortion or unwanted child?

This will haunt them for the rest of their lives? Good. I have no sympathy for them.

*this is true to a first approximation.

...

Sad, I... Why? They were convicted for a crime they committed, being successful and promising does not-Ow, my hope. >_< ;_; :smallfrown:

How can people be so dismissive of the severity of a crime?


But _anything_ can be turned around and used as a weapon, more or less. Privilege is a useful concept, and just because some people mess up the definition or use it to attack people they were going to attack anyway, doesn't mean we should just abandon it. Otherwise we'd have nothing! I'm a socialist. Just because some people say "That Obama, he's a dirty _socialist_!" with disgust -- when he is not a socialist -- doesn't mean I'm going to say "Oh, well, they took that word from me and now I can't use it to mean what it actually means, or people might think I'm insulting someone." It's _the right word_ for me. Same with feminist. And same with using "privilege".

Much the same from the residential Kobold of the Kender-hive, except I would include European and Atheist in there too. Both of those have been used as weapons and slurs quite a lot, yet the former would be outright goofy to change and all of them are used because people make stereotypes and strawfolks, not because of the word itself (in my flawed anecdotal experience. ^_^'). We could use something else instead of feminist, privilege, socialist and everything else, but then the new word may just as well become the weapon. People are insulting others by saying that they are like something that they don't like, so I think the problem is with why people think feminism, socialism, Europeanism* and privilege are bad.

Though I may just be mixing my "Oh-by-tuna-penguins-so-much-homework" stress with actual logic, so feel free to ignore me. ^_^'


*The continent and islands are an -ism now, ranger's honour!
>_>
<_<


As an aside, I hate "first world problems," but mostly because the Cold War ended twenty years ago.

I dislike it because it classifies Earth as a collection of opposing worlds, rather than a single planet for everybody and because it really sounds like people are trying to deny their problems for not being as bad as someone else's problem.

I think the solution might be moon colonies and kittens, but I think everything is solved by shiny stuff and adorable stuff. :3

[Al'izh'dheg]

Hey everybody. I need to talk about feels for a moment. I hate to bring everything down, but I'm really fighting a bad bout of depression. I *think* it's related to coming off the pain meds from when I injured my back Saturday before last. They gave me two different pain meds, and I've been taking them daily until Friday, when I realized I was taking them even though I wasn't really in any (significant) pain. Just... sore. And the meds were making me feel toxic. Always sick to my stomach and such.

I realized there was a problem when my wife commented that she was surprised I was still taking the pills because she thought my back was getting better. I had one of those, "Holy crud, she's right!" moments and put the pills up high on a shelf. Ever since then I've felt really crummy physically. But last night it got really bad emotionally.

I started thinking about what she said... that if I wanted to come out as trans* she would support me, but we couldn't stay married. And I have *really* felt feminine lately. And I started feeling like I was all alone and... ugh. It just makes me cry. And I've been at work all day and been absolutely useless. I haven't even opened the projects I'm supposed to be working on. :(

Sorry, I guess I'm whining at this point. I just don't have anybody I can talk to about this stuff, and you all are always so nice and supportive.

[Asta Kask]

I realized there was a problem when my wife commented that she was surprised I was still taking the pills because she thought my back was getting better. I had one of those, "Holy crud, she's right!" moments and put the pills up high on a shelf. Ever since then I've felt really crummy physically. But last night it got really bad emotionally.

I started thinking about what she said... that if I wanted to come out as trans* she would support me, but we couldn't stay married. And I have *really* felt feminine lately. And I started feeling like I was all alone and... ugh. It just makes me cry. And I've been at work all day and been absolutely useless. I haven't even opened the projects I'm supposed to be working on. :(

Sorry, I guess I'm whining at this point. I just don't have anybody I can talk to about this stuff, and you all are always so nice and supportive.

Sounds like you were given opiates, which are very effective but can make you nauseated (although I would need brand names to really tell). You can get anxiety from withdrawal, but not depression AFAIK. But a week seems a very short time. Maybe you are sensitive - it might be good to keep in mind if you injure yourself again.

As for being all alone... you're not. We're here, even if we're just an Internet presence. I missed you when you were gone and I wondered how you were and how you were doing. And I know that others here did as well. We care about you. Ok?

[Eirala]

Venus Envy is also a pretty good trans-related comic.

I'm not through yet, but i can second that. Very touching.


I posted a link to a reddit thread filled with queer webcomics in I think the last thread? I could dig it up if you want.

That would be neat :smallsmile:

[Lentrax]

Hey everybody. I need to talk about feels for a moment. I hate to bring everything down, but I'm really fighting a bad bout of depression. I *think* it's related to coming off the pain meds from when I injured my back Saturday before last. They gave me two different pain meds, and I've been taking them daily until Friday, when I realized I was taking them even though I wasn't really in any (significant) pain. Just... sore. And the meds were making me feel toxic. Always sick to my stomach and such.

I realized there was a problem when my wife commented that she was surprised I was still taking the pills because she thought my back was getting better. I had one of those, "Holy crud, she's right!" moments and put the pills up high on a shelf. Ever since then I've felt really crummy physically. But last night it got really bad emotionally.

I started thinking about what she said... that if I wanted to come out as trans* she would support me, but we couldn't stay married. And I have *really* felt feminine lately. And I started feeling like I was all alone and... ugh. It just makes me cry. And I've been at work all day and been absolutely useless. I haven't even opened the projects I'm supposed to be working on. :(

Sorry, I guess I'm whining at this point. I just don't have anybody I can talk to about this stuff, and you all are always so nice and supportive.

Gonna have to agree with AK on this.

You are not alone. We are all here to support you, no matter what you choose, or who you decide to be.

Heck, you could choose to be a mass murdering psycho, and I'd still support you. But I'm crazy.

***

Unrelated question:

Would it be awkward for a 30ish guy to go to a Zumba class?

I've been doing the game on my wii, but its getting kinda boring now.

[Kindablue]

I dislike it because it classifies Earth as a collection of opposing worlds, rather than a single planet for everybody and because it really sounds like people are trying to deny their problems for not being as bad as someone else's problem.

I think the solution might be moon colonies and kittens, but I think everything is solved by shiny stuff and adorable stuff. :3

Depending on their level of industial development, different peoples are challenged by very different problems. We can classify them, but how people use that phrase, like that there aren't any problems specific to the developed world that are super ****ed up and deadly, is definitely wrong and underconsidered. But just reasonably, where's the second world now? It just doesn't make any sense for there to be a first... and then a third world... and that's it.

[Heliomance]

The second world is the developing world, I think - China and Russia and such.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Unrelated question:

Would it be awkward for a 30ish guy to go to a Zumba class?

I've been doing the game on my wii, but its getting kinda boring now.

I go to the gym three nights a week at the same time they have their Zumba class, and every time there are at least four 30-something guys grooving along with a dozen or so 20- and 30-something women and everyone seems to be having a great time. As long as you woudn't be embarrassed about it or anything, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to go.

[Mina Kobold]

Depending on their level of industial development, different peoples are challenged by very different problems. We can classify them, but how people use that phrase, like that there aren't any problems specific to the developed world that are super ****ed up and deadly, is definitely wrong and underconsidered. But just reasonably, where's the second world now? It just doesn't make any sense for there to be a first... and then a third world... and that's it.

Very much true, apologies for sounding like I did not think there were different problems for different places. My problem is with the wording sounding a bit alienating, like we are talking about somewhere so far away that it is a separate world to us. Instead of being places in our world that we are also responsible for assisting, they become more of a faerie realm to teach children how lucky they are.

...

I miiiiiiight be a bit obsessed with language. Might. '>_>

[Coidzor]

Would it be awkward for a 30ish guy to go to a Zumba class?

I've been doing the game on my wii, but its getting kinda boring now.

Only if you make it so. My general understanding is that it's felt that there are generally not enough men in dance activities.

[Lentrax]

Only if you make it so. My general understanding is that it's felt that there are generally not enough men in dance activities.

Well, I guess no I just have to see if I can afford it...

And not make myself look like some kind of perv, which shouldnt be hard cause I'll be too busy staring at feet to try and get my steps right. :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

Well, I guess no I just have to see if I can afford it...

And not make myself look like some kind of perv, which shouldnt be hard cause I'll be too busy staring at feet to try and get my steps right. :smalleek:

Well, it doesn't work on everyone, but confidence that you're not a perv, don't look like one, aren't acting like one, and belong there make up most of the headology of it.

[Kindablue]

The second world is the developing world, I think - China and Russia and such.

The categories don't fit neatly: while the definition of the second world may have changed after the war, the other two remained the same. Most of South America and an steadly increasing portion of Africa are developing, but they are always called the third world, because during the war they were neither a satellite for the USSR nor an ally for NATO. Developed, developing, and undeveloped seem like much more useful and relevant words to me.

[Heliomance]

Picture of me and some friends. Warning: Potentially NSFB!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598997_10152122998831490_260564530_n.jpg

[The Succubus]

Mmmmm, gorgeous as ever. :smallredface:

But I promised you some constructive feedback, I believe. It's a little difficult because you seem to have the feminine look not only nailed down but welded to the floor too. Possibly a slightly lighter shade of cheek blush might help but seriously, aside from that, you really are perfect. The top you're wearing has that nice little midriff show that a lot of girls try and fail to achieve, your upper chest looks realistic without being excessive and the pendant is a nice finishing tough. Your nose looks a little flushed but that may been down to a little too much wine perhaps? =3

In short, Helio = yummy.

[Heliomance]

I'm not wearing blush :P I just have a naturally red complexion. My mum does too - I blush at the drop of a hat, and even when not blushing I'm quite red.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Sounds like you were given opiates, which are very effective but can make you nauseated (although I would need brand names to really tell). You can get anxiety from withdrawal, but not depression AFAIK. But a week seems a very short time. Maybe you are sensitive - it might be good to keep in mind if you injure yourself again.

As for being all alone... you're not. We're here, even if we're just an Internet presence. I missed you when you were gone and I wondered how you were and how you were doing. And I know that others here did as well. We care about you. Ok?

Thanks Asta, I appreciate it. I've eaten some, and that seems to temporarily stave off the yucks. It inevitably comes back.

My meds were Tramadol for during the day and Hydrocodone for sleep. It really felt like Tramadol was the culprit, though that's just from anecdotal personal knowledge, not anything empirical. That would have required more "experimentation" with it, and I'm *so* over the meds.

The doctor said the Tramadol wasn't supposed to make me sleepy, but I'm also unusually affected by all meds, and he said in light of that, it may have made me tired at the very least.

The depression... I don't know. *shrug* I came home from work early today and cried. My wife comforted me as best she could before having to leave for work. I'm... better now. Not great, but better.

[Chess435]

Picture of me and some friends. Warning: Potentially NSFB!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598997_10152122998831490_260564530_n.jpg

Holy cow you're cute! :smallredface::smallwink: 10/10, would cuddle. :smallamused:

[Selpharia]

Picture of me and some friends. Warning: Potentially NSFB!
snip

You are unbelievably cute! If I had to take a guess on why you're getting clocked though, I'd go for a combination of your jawline and eyebrows. And I can see a little shadow around your chin. That's really it though.

Worlds

About worlds, and who is in which one, it pretty much depends on who you ask. This treads dangerously close to politics, so I'll talk about it it as purely history. Like all politicized phrases, "[ordinal] world" gets reinterpreted to suit political needs. For example, India's first prime minister Nehru was fond of the more familiar "first- NATO, second- Warsaw Pact third- everyone else" to emphasize that all countries not directly aligned at the time with either of the first two worlds had a common cause to prevent themselves being caught up in superpower conflict and promote India as leader of a coalition of those countries.

Mao on the other hand, considered that both the U.S, and the Soviet Union were in the first world because they were superpowers: their allies who were less powerful were in the second world, and everyone else was in the third world. With this theory, Mao separated what he considered "imperial" powers (first world) from those the thought of as their accessories and their prey. Mao's version positioned China, the ideological centerpiece of the "inevitable" communist-led revolution, as the leader of the revolt in less powerful countries that would break the first world's power over the second, and eventually topple it.

~Laura

[noparlpf]

Picture of me and some friends. Warning: Potentially NSFB!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598997_10152122998831490_260564530_n.jpg

I'm gonna go with "well you are in a group of people dressed femme but wearing facial hair". That might make people start looking a bit more closely at the rest of the group, or make assumptions, I dunno.

[Sparkify]

Picture of me and some friends. Warning: Potentially NSFB!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/598997_10152122998831490_260564530_n.jpg

Why is your chin green? D:

[TaiLiu]

Why is your chin green? D:

I think it's the light, or a shadow.

[Absol197]

...I'm sorry Helio, but based on that picture, I honestly can't tell why people are clocking you. You just look like a really pretty girl to me!

Kender: You're right of course. I guess I'm letting the less-than-ideal introduction to the concept color my views. I'll try and change!

...Soooo...

Not the best birthday in the world. My coworkers got me a card and all of them signed it, which was a nice gesture, but they picked the single worst one they could: it said, "Happy Birthday Dude!" on the front. I mean, I know it's not their fault because I haven't told them, but is that really the kind of vibe I give off? :smallfrown:

Then, during the dinner my parents took me out to, the conversation briefly got around to what my future is going to look like, and the long and short of it is that my mom still firmly believes that I won't be able to transition in my current job, and that I'll have to wait until I can transfer departments, because people might not like working with a weird trans person, and so I won't be able to start hormones for a couple more years.

We (read: I) didn't really say much to that and just let the conversation move to a different place, but it's still disheartening :smallfrown: .


~Phee~

[TaiLiu]

...people might not like working with a weird trans person...
Hm. Considering that your co-workers all purchased a birthday card for you, I don't think that they'll be very intolerant. The card is a nice gesture; their acceptance of you will be a nice gesture.

[SiuiS]

[
I posted a link to a reddit thread filled with queer webcomics in I think the last thread? I could dig it up if you want.

You did! Sorry. I must have dropped that quote back when and forgotten about it thereby.

I'll go searching for it, no worries luv :smallsmile:


My town doesn't have a particularly high concentration of Irish-descended people that I'm aware of and they closed off the main road for a bloody parade yesterday.

Well. Everyone is Irish on Saint Paddy's :smallwink:



It's "privilege". That's the only way to spell it in any English as far as I'm aware.

I seriously have no idea why my phone thinks privelege is a word...

Huh. No, apparently it only does that in my browser. My notepad is giving me the red flag...



I laughed.


I wanted to make a joke, too, but my pry bar is strictly mediocre. :smallfrown:



>:|
More of this ****. "Oh, those poor boys, the guilty verdict ruined their lives." Um, no. They ruined their lives. And somebody else's, too. Is anybody worrying about this poor girl? What happened to her isn't even comparable to a year or two in jail and being registered as a sex offender.

*deep breath*

Okay. So I think this isn't invalid as a concept, but only invalid as the focus of discussion.

Objectively, these boys have ha their lives ruined. They have lost opportunities. They are Gavin repercussions. The news doesn't explicitly make a judgement; it merely states that they will have problems.

but, this sort of ties into stigma and such doesn't it? Objectively this is true. But objectively it also sets a precedent based on the shallowness of perception.

This is actually kind of what caused the whole mental disability debacle a while ago; objectively it's not a problem, but socially it can be. Socially? It implies these guys are victims and did nothing wrong and the girl Gould have just taken the whole rape thing with dignity, and... That's straight ****ed up.

So yeah. No. I'm on your side, and just had to talk my way through it.


But _anything_ can be turned around and used as a weapon, more or less. Privilege is a useful concept, and just because some people mess up the definition or use it to attack people they were going to attack anyway, doesn't mean we should just abandon it. Otherwise we'd have nothing! I'm a socialist. Just because some people say "That Obama, he's a dirty _socialist_!" with disgust -- when he is not a socialist -- doesn't mean I'm going to say "Oh, well, they took that word from me and now I can't use it to mean what it actually means, or people might think I'm insulting someone." It's _the right word_ for me. Same with feminist. And same with using "privilege".

There was an article in the paper this morning about the "F-word", feminist. Apparently, women 35-50 believe feminists are less a categorical thing and more a specific thing, with exacting criterion, and women 20-35 prefer to be called "empowered" because of Feminist's baggage from all the 35-50 year olds, and women 10-24 think "you're nuts. Feminism is gender equality, no wage difference, no shaming. Screw the baggage".



That's more or less what I was saying (I paraphrased the exchange to make it shorter) and that was exactly why he kicked up a fuss. He did not accept that my opinion on what a young woman might experience could be more valid than his view as a man.

... Oh. Well, uh. *Hm.
If talking to him reasonably from a neutral stand point doesn't work, the remaining option is to stuff him back into his mother an hope he comes out better this time, but I don't think she would appreciate that. ^_^"



I should have been more clear about that. Internet access is like a secondary level. It's not that some people are born with it and some people aren't, like being cis or being white. It's more like wealth. Some people are born wealthy and some people work really really hard and save up a lot of money. Both of those people have "wealth" privilege - they can afford what they need and want, they can pay their hospital bills, they can support their kids. The second person is probably more aware that it is a privilege, but it's still there, they still have the stuff society gives them for being rich. We don't get much from society for being internet-connected (but we do get some stuff, talk to the people who aren't on the internet, which includes 25% of Irish people), but being on the internet also implies a baseline level of wealth and first-world-ness.

I didn't mean to imply internet was something some people just "got" and other people didn't, or to hurt your feelings.

You didn't hurt my feelings, hon. Thank you though :smallsmile:

I still think my point stands, though. I know that's not what you meant, and you know that's not what you meant, but using the word privilege for this makes it seem the same. It is, literally, *privilege, but using it as an example in a discussion of Privilege as it is online and in feminist stuffs will confuse the issue, because they are related but separate concepts.

Ugh. I'm not being clear. I know exactly what I want to convey and can't seem to say it right :<



Ah, okay, let me explain!

St Patrick's Day was always an Irish celebration, with the parades and a special Mass, and drinks. It went to America with all the emigrants, and everywhere else as well, and stayed more or less the same (parade + alcohol is kind of a hard thing to mess up). Plus green.

It's not a sectarian thing, thank goodness. It's just a bit of a shindig, it was never associated with the Troubles. It's not a celebration against the British, it's not a celebration of the Irish State, it's just a celebration of a kind of "Irishness".*

Most people I know might wear some green (I understand in America people pinch people who don't wear green - this is stupid and childish and doesn't happen here) or wear a sprig of shamrock. ALL our politicians except the President leave and go to different countries, the Taoiseach and Tainiste go to America, and then they go down in importance; Britain, France, Australia, etc, to go to different St Patrick's Day events. Lots of people go to the parade. Then most people go home because the place is overrun with drunk young people and tourists. We get the day off work/school and people still go to Mass for it.

Alcohol+parade is indeed hard to bungle.

Pinching has fallen by the wayside, but yes it is childish.

Wearing of the green has always been described as a catholic thing, and activist Protestants wear orange on St. Patrick's day, so I was unsure. Thanks!


I saw a play called Good People recently—about a man and a woman who had a fling as teens in lower class Boston meeting up again in their 50s. Mike is a wealthy doctor now and Margie just got fired from a retail job where she got payed less than Mike pays the teenager who babysits his kids. Mike is definitely more privileged than Margie, even though his comfortable life wasn't handed to him, and he worked hard for it. Everyone read Harrison Bergeron in middle school, and though life isn't as simple as "some people are just better," life is uneven terrian, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with living on a hill. If you have Internet access, you do have that over most people in the world, regardless of how or why you have it.

Okay, I see your point. But I still feel the distinction between it being a privilege and Having Privilege is a valid one.

Privilege has a definition. That definition allowed it to be applied as the term we know for pointing out differences in quality of life between groups. That use then fed back into the definition.

It's step three, the feedback, I'm campaigning against. It causes confusion and problems. It's an unfortunate lingual drift and I want to keep them separate so people who don't know any better aren't made to feel bad because their life doesn't suck.

Life being awesome is the worst reason to be depressed!


As an aside, I hate "first world problems," but mostly because the Cold War ended twenty years ago.

Yeah, it's pretty silly.



I dislike it because it classifies Earth as a collection of opposing worlds, rather than a single planet for everybody and because it really sounds like people are trying to deny their problems for not being as bad as someone else's problem.

I think the solution might be moon colonies and kittens, but I think everything is solved by shiny stuff and adorable stuff. :3

Moon colonies and kitten solve everything except problems caused by kittens an moon colonies.


Hey everybody. *I need to talk about feels for a moment. *I hate to bring everything down, but I'm really fighting a bad bout of depression. *I *think* it's related to coming off the pain meds from when I injured my back Saturday before last. *They gave me two different pain meds, and I've been taking them daily until Friday, when I realized I was taking them even though I wasn't really in any (significant) pain. *Just... sore. *And the meds were making me feel toxic. *Always sick to my stomach and such.

I realized there was a problem when my wife commented that she was surprised I was still taking the pills because she thought my back was getting better. *I had one of those, "Holy crud, she's right!" moments and put the pills up high on a shelf. *Ever since then I've felt really crummy physically. *But last night it got really bad emotionally.

I started thinking about what she said... that if I wanted to come out as trans* she would support me, but we couldn't stay married. *And I have *really* felt feminine lately. *And I started feeling like I was all alone and... ugh. *It just makes me cry. *And I've been at work all day and been absolutely useless. *I haven't even opened the projects I'm supposed to be working on. :(

Sorry, I guess I'm whining at this point. *I just don't have anybody I can talk to about this stuff, and you all are always so nice and supportive.

Oh honey... :smallfrown:

This stuff is hard. Bottling it up can cause a sort of background level of despair that trips into an avalanche of self destruction if you're not careful. This depression-y stuff an also cause physical symptoms sometimes.

I don't have much of substance to say, I guess. Just... Ride it out. It gets better, usually, and we are here for you. We know it sucks, but we care. So please, don't fret leaning on us for support.


Depending on their level of industial development, different peoples are challenged by very different problems. We can classify them, but how people use that phrase, like that there aren't any problems specific to the developed world that are super ****ed up and deadly, is definitely wrong and underconsidered. But just reasonably, where's the second world now? It just doesn't make any sense for there to be a first... and then a third world... and that's it.

Honestly? I first hear it was New World, Old World and Third World. Ive been unable to find where I feat saw that, and no one else has heard it though, so *shrug*


Mmmmm, gorgeous as ever. :smallredface:

But I promised you some constructive feedback, I believe. It's a little difficult because you seem to have the feminine look not only nailed down but welded to the floor too. Possibly a slightly lighter shade of cheek blush might help but seriously, aside from that, you really are perfect. The top you're wearing has that nice little midriff show that a lot of girls try and fail to achieve, your upper chest looks realistic without being excessive and the pendant is a nice finishing tough. Your nose looks a little flushed but that may been down to a little too much wine perhaps? =3

In short, Helio = yummy.

Helio is hot, yes.

Your motions. The way you're standing says to me you're still moving in a masculine fashion. Your toes and foot positioning are subtly masculine in the framing of the legs, hips, And such. Your toes are pointing outward – I hate myself for this, because that silly 'toes pointing in is feminine' thin is something I've campaigned against – and... It's chain proprioception I think. Your toes change your valves change your hip and thigh positions dnwhile no individual thing is masculine, the whole sort of implies being comfortable as a man.

HOWEVER, I've never seen you in motion, which could entirely blow this out of the water. I do notice that this is your usually femme pose though, so you may be relying on too small a pool of feminine social cues?

I am specifically looking for this stuff though, an sorta trained to see it. So I don't know if I should be dismissed or if I'm able to put words to the ephemeral quality others would see but not be able to express. :smallsmile:

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My coworkers got me a card and all of them signed it, which was a nice gesture, but they picked the single worst one they could: it said, "Happy Birthday Dude!" on the front. I mean, I know it's not their fault because I haven't told them, but is that really the kind of vibe I give off? :smallfrown:

Getting a card with that message on it doesn't necessarily mean you give off any particular vibe. One of my coworkers opens every conversation with "Hey man, so..." no matter the gender of the person he's talking to, and every male in the office from the lowly interns to his 60-year old boss is "Hey, dude!" to him. It's entirely possible they got you that card because it was the best-looking card, or the only male-oriented card that wasn't for a dad's or brother's birthday, or something like that.

If it does worry you, you could always ask one of them if you give off a "dude" or "bro" vibe and why they think that is; if they ask why you're asking and you don't want to come out to them, you could tell them that you always thought of yourself as a nerd rather than a "dude" and were just curious.

[Kindablue]

Okay, I see your point. But I still feel the distinction between it being a privilege and Having Privilege is a valid one.

Privilege has a definition. That definition allowed it to be applied as the term we know for pointing out differences in quality of life between groups. That use then fed back into the definition.

It's step three, the feedback, I'm campaigning against. It causes confusion and problems. It's an unfortunate lingual drift and I want to keep them separate so people who don't know any better aren't made to feel bad because their life doesn't suck.

Life being awesome is the worst reason to be depressed!
You make hills by also making valleys. The post colonial blues are very much preferred to forgetting about how messed up the mass genocide and oppression treading in the wake of colonialism is. You should strive to be happy, but never because you ignored sad things. If that use of that word makes people contemplate their place in the world, I support it.


Moon colonies and kitten solve everything except problems caused by kittens an moon colonies.
RELEASE THE KITTIES (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CwaD9tb1P50)


Honestly? I first hear it was New World, Old World and Third World. Ive been unable to find where I feat saw that, and no one else has heard it though, so *shrug*
It's not that far off if your old world is Eastern Europe, and your new world is America.

I know next to nothing about my Chinese soon-to-be overlords, and that was an interesting point, Laura. "We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are," meaning the capitalist sees the cold war as a competition and the communist sees the cold war as an inevitable class conflict.

[Kittenwolf]

Joy! Mind sharing the specifics? :smallsmile:

Well, when I first told her her response was basically to shrug her shoulders and go "And?", so we were off to a good start :)

We had a bit of a chat about what it means, what my plans are, how it'll affect me in the future, all that kind of thing.
She wasn't surprised (and admitted she'd had to double-check a couple of my facebook photos to realise that it was me and not her at my age) though she did say that she doesn't know if she'd take it very well seeing me presenting as a girl in person, but we'll cross that bridge should we come to it.

And then when she was nearly home I got a phone call from her 'just to remind you that I love you' which was really sweet :)


So yeah, it's been a big couple of days!

Today so far I've been to the hairdressers, walked in with long, straight hair with a couple of mostly grown out layers, and walked out with dark brown curls and a fringe.
Unfortunately the curls are only styled, and already mostly lossened out, but oh well :).
The hairdresser was *amazing* about it all when I said I was really considering a fringe, and when I said I was looking at something that'd work for both genders 'so I could experiment' she was all "Ok, lets see what we can do".
When she'd got the basic shape cut and was just down to trimming it she looked at it and went "It does make you look more feminine, that's ok?" and there was a "Nothing wrong with looking a bit girly" thrown in later.


After that was my first gender-related counseling appointment. The counselor was good, but admitted up front she doesn't know a lot about gender issues, but we had a fair bit of general discussion, and she's going to look for gender specialist counselors and doctors for me and then arrange another appointment (with the assurance from me that if things start getting to me I'm to contact her for another appointment immediately).

Then after that I caught up with a friend who I hadn't seen in person in ages, who had a few pamphlets from the University's queer department for me (she'd gone to them, saying that a friend had just come out as GQ and asked what information they could give), and told me how awesome the fringe looked and had a great general chat.

Then after *that* was off to a laser hair removal consult which turned into my first treatment. Fingers crossed this will lead to never needing to shave again.


Right on my limit of what I could cope with in one day I think.
Tomorrow is full body wax, full body massage, manicure and pedicure.


Also, for those discussing the recent rape verdict, a friend linked this (http://www.underthegunreview.net/2013/03/18/henry-rollins-comments-on-steubenville-rape-verdict/) and I found it a really good read.

[Mono Vertigo]

It's from a couple pages back, but I have to respond to Sparkify: apologies, I honestly remembered that differently. I don't usually let my mood influence my memories (I guess I was not in a good mood then anyway). I should have checked the thread again before posting. Sorry. :smallfrown:

[The Succubus]

Not the best birthday in the world. My coworkers got me a card and all of them signed it, which was a nice gesture, but they picked the single worst one they could: it said, "Happy Birthday Dude!" on the front. I mean, I know it's not their fault because I haven't told them, but is that really the kind of vibe I give off? :smallfrown:

Then, during the dinner my parents took me out to, the conversation briefly got around to what my future is going to look like, and the long and short of it is that my mom still firmly believes that I won't be able to transition in my current job, and that I'll have to wait until I can transfer departments, because people might not like working with a weird trans person, and so I won't be able to start hormones for a couple more years.

We (read: I) didn't really say much to that and just let the conversation move to a different place, but it's still disheartening :smallfrown: .


~Phee~

*hugs Phee*
*catches fire*

Don't fret too much about it, hun. I know that Lixie uses "dude" when she refers to her friends, whether they're male or female - it can be a gender neutral term. Have you sounded out any of your workmates about transitioning? You'd be surprised how much other people pick up on and they could just be worried about upsetting you by saying something too early.

I think its important that you do because your mum seems to be under the impression that she knows the people you work with better than you do. It'd say a lot of your workmates if they all signed a card or letter saying that they support your transitioning. Then your mum wouldn't really have any further reason to deny you and you could still work where you are.

[Heliomance]

Apparently my grandmother's asked my mum for a book on transgender issues to read to understand it better - can anyone recommend a good one?

[Mono Vertigo]

I've got a nice little article to share (linking it here makes it preach to the choir, but it might be a helpful read for your grandmother, incidentally): Gender as a spectrum and legal advances on the matter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21788238).


EDIT: I'm now a ninja.

[The Succubus]

Richard O'Brien on "The Third Sex" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21788238) - neat read. :smallsmile:

[Socratov]

That's strange, usually I have to be physically present to mess up people's internet connections. My apologies. :smallconfused::smallfrown:



...You have actually run into a person who felt insulted because they chose to hold the door open for someone else? :smallconfused: I've certainly run into people who were insulted because they were cussed out for holding the door open for others or called misogynistic/sexist tools, which is fair enough because those situations actually involve them being insulted. My mind, it boggles at the inanity of it. :smalleek: Also, insanity.



Honestly asking a fair question is no excuse for jerkishness or dehumanization. You don't even have to do anything *wrong* for your privilege to get brought up, certainly, but most of the people who I've encountered tossing it as a careless buzzword are either too jaded or too misanthropic to care that they're being jerks themselves when someone is honestly trying to digest it.

A lesson I've learned, rightly or not, is that unless you're personally friends with someone and you do it in private, you never ask an internet feminist for information or resources to combat your own ignorance about something, you just have to bite the bullet and delve into the belly of the beast with google as your wingman. Meatspace feminists are usually more reliable anyway, especially as the strawmen are easily identifiable by their casual conversation.

One example of privilege that comes to mind is that, as a man, I am allowed to feel indignant at having been sexually objectified and catcalled at by adult men as a pubescent child and adolescent when all I was trying to do was walk my dog. Women, however, merely have to accept being catcalled and stared at as a fact of life or devote time, energy, and resources to fighting cultural inertia.

When I walk down the street at night, I don't worry about muggers or rapists because I'm large, strong, cocksure and male. They don't even register on my mind unless I'm somehow finding myself in the "wrong part of town," and it's privilege that prevents my full empathy with the racial segregation and socio-economic injustice that encapsulates the essence of such places.

During the day I freely nod my head to and wave at my neighbours and other people in the neighbourhood when I'm walking my dog or even go so far as to say hello, because I have no real conception of ever being harassed as a result of what I think of as being polite. Nor do I have any real conception beyond second-hand accounts of how what I view as a polite greeting to wish a woman a good day and to compliment her on the behavior and appearance of her canine companion is automatically ringing alarm bells in her head.

I admit that I'm probably flubbing the specific language, likely only right in the most general sense where I am right, and that it's almost certainly a mix between my own personal carelessness that you're probably quite familiar with and the privilege of my background.



Theoretically? :smallconfused: I'd have thought that Theodore Roosevelt was a pretty good example myself.
Well, I thought he had some sort of disability, but he worked around it by gathering knowledge and focusing on his strengths...