Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground XLIV [Archive]

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Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-05, 08:04 PM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLIII. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, April 20th, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, May 4th 11th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Races of Destiny’s Urban Soul!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-05, 08:05 PM

FAQ:
Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as it's Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

How about the non-human Adaptation section? In a word? No. Humans and [human]s only.

What about the City-bonded substitution level? The Chair sees no reason to ban access to it (though he suspects that the vast majority of people will take it).

Amphetryon

2013-04-05, 08:07 PM

Venger's going to be stoked for this one.

Competing.

RaviStrife

2013-04-05, 08:14 PM

Haven't even looked at the class, already know I'm in. Good luck to all! =-p

EDIT: Just finished reading. Ouch. Thats...gonna be rough. Lets do this.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-05, 08:17 PM

mattie_p

2013-04-05, 08:22 PM

I am interested. It has been a while since I competed here.

Zaq

2013-04-05, 08:27 PM

On the one hand, I'm home from work with precious little to do while my arm heals. On the other hand, I find this class to be . . . unfortunately uninspiring.

We shall see. I'm not in yet, but it's not out of the question.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-05, 08:44 PM

My judging criteria:

Originality

Let me preface this section by saying that I don't think originality is wholly contingent upon choice of class. Two builds can have the exact same class levels, and yet end up going in completely different directions. Choice of class matters somewhat, but I'm more interested in what your build actually does.

I also will not penalize you just because someone else has chosen the same class as you. If you submit something that I find unexpected, I'll score it high even if the next person has the exact same build. But if you submit an entry that I consider standard or expected, don't expect a lot of points even if no one else went that direction.

So what will gain you points? Use the abilities you have in fresh and interesting ways. Surprise me. Show me new combinations that I've never seen before. Meanwhile, using well-known builds will cause you to lose points.

Power

There are two questions that will define how I rate a build's power. They are...

(1) How good is your build at its intended role?
(2) Will you stay relevant if your main "trick" does not work?

I don't expect every build to have 9th-level casting or manifesting, or to be able to bring the universe to its knees. However, if your build has a specific role or function, I expect you to be at least adequate at it. And if your build is a one-trick pony, it had better be a pretty good trick. I will deduct points if you can't function outside of a very limited set of parameters.

I'll also be looking for obvious ways your build could be improved (other than the most obvious "take fewer levels of the Secret Ingredient"). There's nothing wrong with sacrificing a little power for flavor, but if a choice makes you worse at your role, I will penalize for it. Just hope you make up the points in elegance or originality, I guess...

Finally, I don't plan to grade on a curve. Even if this is a weak ingredient, don't expect full points in Power if you've managed to just barely become adequate. Everyone's got the same ingredient to work with, after all.

Elegance

Obscurity or using multitude of sources doesn't bother me, but for the love of Pelor, please cite your work! I am very familiar with the system, but I like to have the books in front of me when I'm reviewing a build. I also don't like too much mixing of setting-specific material. (Note that just because a class or feat appears in a setting book doesn't mean that I will consider it setting-specific; I'm referring to things like regional feats, feats and classes that involve certain setting-specific orders, etc.)

Now that that's out of the way... I don't mind dips, as long as they are reasonable and make sense. However, I will not ignore the "fluff" requirements of a class. If a prestige class requires you to be a member of the Wizards of the Unseen University and your build glosses over that requirement, expect to see a small deduction.

In any case, while I won't penalize for dips, I do like nice clean builds, where everything works in harmony, so you can pick up extra points that way. I will also give out small bonuses here if everything is written up cleanly, in an engaging manner. Nothing huge - the build is most important. But presentation DOES matter, and if you do a good job with it, I think you should be rewarded. I don't need three pages of backstory, but I do like to see more than a list of abilities.

I'm mildly cheese-tolerant - I don't mind characters being effective or using abilities in new and exciting ways, as long as the rules do indeed back you up. But this should be something you are willing to sit down with other human beings and actually play, so keep the Vieux Boulougne at home. Also, this should go without saying, but if a build element is illegal (failing to qualify for a feat/PrC, for instance), I will deduct for it.

Use of Secret Ingredient

This one's pretty simple. Do you use the secret ingredient's abilities to good effect, or are they more of a footnote? Is there another class that could have done a better job at what you are trying to do? Your goal here is to highlight the secret ingredient, not to mask it. You will gain points by taking advantage of all the abilities provided, by using them in effective ways (an ability that would have been cool at level 6 won't score points with me if you don't pick it up until level 12), and by demonstrating how the SI brings your build together. You will lose points by dropping too many levels, failing to take advantage of the class's core abilities and pre-requisites, etc. You will automatically get minimum points here if you don't actually qualify for the PrC, so double-check those skill points!

dysprosium

2013-04-05, 08:48 PM

i would like to take another shot in the kitchen.

sign me up!

nobodez

2013-04-05, 09:20 PM

I think I'll jump into this one. I've already got a good idea of where I'm going to go.

Shining Wrath

2013-04-05, 09:22 PM

Venger

2013-04-05, 10:32 PM

Venger's going to be stoked for this one.

you remembered!

dude I am so stoked.

I'm going to cook. Tremble.

Chairman, what's the policy on taking the optional sub level. is it allowed, or not?

Vknight

2013-04-05, 10:34 PM

Count me interested but I may not get the time to have a build ready by the deadline

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-05, 11:17 PM

I shall cook.

First question: text of the class states that Urbanus might choose a non-human as an Urban Soul for a city with majority non-human races. May we take advantage of this ACF? Because we'll get a greater variety of cuisines that way.

Second question: is the "City Bonded" variant allowed?

Let's keep this sane - Human or [human] applicants only, please.

And I see no reason not to allow the sub level (even though I suspect that the vast majority of contestants will jump at the chance to take it - I mean, the SLAs alone are better than the inter-city teleport, and you also get intracity teleportation).

Adding to FAQ

Kazyan

2013-04-05, 11:24 PM

I already have a rather silly idea. Count me in as a contestant.

The Viscount

2013-04-05, 11:47 PM

This isn't great, but I love me some urban classes. I'm in for the time being. This looks like it's going to be fun.
Wait a moment. It's an SI without feat requirements! Kuulv, you beautiful person!

8wGremlin

2013-04-06, 12:54 AM

Hell I'll try this one

sabelo2000

2013-04-06, 01:07 AM

Wow, one build already built itself for me. 30 minutes of work, and everything meshes... is this too easy? Is this build dish the equivalent to Pizza Nachos - quick and delicious, but c'mon.

Time to start work on a gourmet dish! So excited!

Draz74

2013-04-06, 02:22 AM

Let's keep this sane - Human or [human] applicants only, please.

Aww dang, you mean I can't make a Kobold Urban Soul who specializes in founding villages named Lickmyorangeballshalfling around himself? :smallfrown:

sabelo2000

2013-04-06, 03:48 AM

Aww dang, you mean I can't make a Kobold Urban Soul who specializes in founding villages named Lickmyorangeballshalfling around himself? :smallfrown:

That's awesome, Draz. I'd like to see that happen just because, forget about the judging!

In other news, I'm delighted to see that Piggy has thrown in as a judge, and not just because I won't have to compete against him! Piggy, I look forward to hearing your review of my build.

yugi24862

2013-04-06, 05:25 AM

Hmmmm, basically since urban soul doesnt seem to advance any class features, or give any extra damage beyond mob violence, you'll need to qualify with some good damage potential.

GreenSerpent

2013-04-06, 05:53 AM

I might have an idea... *thinking*

darklink_shadow

2013-04-06, 06:10 AM

FyreByrd

2013-04-06, 06:34 AM

Got a couple of ideas...although my first one is pretty much a bust on power straight off the bat, so may leave that by the wayside.

I think I'm in...it doesn't have the attraction of Bladesinger (still don't know why it attracted me so much) but at least there's a few decent entries into it!

Z3ro

2013-04-06, 09:23 AM

What an uninspiring pile of uselessness. I think I shall judge this round.

*Edit* Forgot criteria:

Originality: This category has two main components; was your build similar to any of the other builds submitted, and was it similar to any well-known builds. In addition, I will penalize your build if it uses obvious tricks in obvious ways or well-known exploits in expected ways. Bonus points for things that haven't been thought of before (or at least with respect to the secret ingredient) and for using known tricks in unusual ways. Given the restrictive entry requirements, originality will be relaxed a little this round.

Power: How does your build stack up, power wise, to other builds focusing on similar objectives. Power in this category includes flexibility and versatility as well as straight combat power. This category will also measure power from level 1-20; a build will be penalized if it is excessively weak or unplayable at lower levels but ramps up later. Bonus points will be given if most or all of a build's power come from tricks involving the secret ingredient. The baseline I'm using for this round is something like a specialized ranger; can function decently in their chosen realm, but is weak outside of it. You'll have to do better than that to score well in this category.

Elegance: The toughest category to judge and assess. Dipping will not be automatically penalized, but dipping that makes no thematic sense (taking 2 levels of fighter for the feats on a spellcasting class) will be. More importantly, the build should make sense at all levels, 1-20. Abilities that are useless at the level they are taken, but come on line later, will be penalized. Maintaining flavor and flow through the build will be rewarded, while taking out of place levels/abilities will be penalized. This is also the category that will see deductions for questionable use of rules/illegal builds. Expect points lost if you utilize something that most DMs would not allow.

Use of the Secret Ingredient:Did you take all 10 levels? How many of the abilities granted did you use, and how essential are they to your build? Would your build be better off achieving its goal with another class, rather than the secret ingredient? Would you have been better off just sticking to your base class?

Vaz

2013-04-06, 09:24 AM

Hi, NPC class, nice to meet you. I have a few ideas thematically, but whether that actually correspondsnto actual use, I don't know.

Venger

2013-04-06, 10:12 AM

This is my first ever seeing this thing. Is it acceptable to make an npc-esq character? This class specifically lends to not leaving cities, something you average player would frown upon.

Edit: and are we allowed only one entry? I have two radically different ideas...

you can make an NPC style character, just make sure you specify so in your playtips section.

you can make multiple dishes if you want. people do it pretty often.

mattie_p

2013-04-06, 11:06 AM

you can make an NPC style character, just make sure you specify so in your playtips section.

You can, but NPCs are for suckers. The challenge is making the secret ingredient into a usable PC.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-06, 11:12 AM

This is my first ever seeing this thing. Is it acceptable to make an npc-esq character? This class specifically lends to not leaving cities, something you average player would frown upon.

From the FAQ post -

Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Amphetryon

2013-04-06, 11:46 AM

Character has been formatted into the [lovely] table. Now for the explanations and backstory.

nedz

2013-04-06, 11:52 AM

I have a couple of ideas for this one, but the SI is not an inspiring class.

Haluesen

2013-04-06, 12:09 PM

Hello..I read the last IC and this looks interesting and so very much fun. How can I take part in this? Is it just as simple as saying I sign up? Sorry for the likely dumb question, but I'm fairly new to the forum and definitely new to much focused character building. This could be a fun way to see what people here have taught me! :smallsmile:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-06, 12:39 PM

Haluesen

2013-04-06, 12:47 PM

Alright cool! I sign up then. :smallsmile:

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-06, 01:27 PM

Wow, a pretty strong class for an SI. I will get right to cooking.

Shining Wrath

2013-04-06, 02:35 PM

Let's keep this sane - Human or [human] applicants only, please.

And I see no reason not to allow the sub level (even though I suspect that the vast majority of contestants will jump at the chance to take it - I mean, the SLAs alone are better than the inter-city teleport, and you also get intracity teleportation).

Adding to FAQ

Mwahahahaha. That is all.

Haluesen

2013-04-06, 02:57 PM

Ooh, I just reread this and saw the possibility of making multiple dishes. That may be handy..I'm having a very hard time narrowing in on a single idea. :smallamused: Have fun everyone!

The Viscount

2013-04-06, 03:22 PM

Man, I haven't seen this many SLAs as class features since Drow Judicator. It's odd, though. This is just less awful in some way.

darklink_shadow

2013-04-06, 04:40 PM

Thank you for your responses. I did not feel the FAQ answered my question. My ideas are viable for a PC, but not one I would want to play. Inability to leave a city is a major pain for a PC. But I will see what I can make.

Thurbane

2013-04-06, 10:20 PM

Urban Soul was an SI I requested a few times...I know I've got the bare bones of a build kicking around somewhere. Time permitting, I'll try and get an entry in.

sabelo2000

2013-04-07, 01:02 AM

Alright cool! I sign up then. :smallsmile:

Hal, I'll PM you the raw text code for the table that everyone uses. I think it was Kuulveyshoon or Piggy who gave it to me a couple rounds ago for my first IC dish...

Dangit, how do I send somebody the table code without it ACTUALLY BEING A TABLE!! Garrrgh!

Failed Phantasm

2013-04-07, 01:10 AM

Remove one bracket from the [/table] line, like so: [/table

But if you sent it via the forums, I'm fairly sure they could just quote your message and copy-paste the code right out of that.

EDIT: And as much as I would like to try my hand at one of these... I'm not a huge fan of ingredients that require a specific race (or subtype, in this case) for entry, so it would be a poor choice for my first attempt at cooking. Sorry!

Amechra

2013-04-07, 01:17 AM

It's... all in the bottom of the first post?

You don't actually need to PM anything?

I have a couple ideas. I may try to repeat my one win...

Haluesen

2013-04-07, 01:39 AM

Yeah, I saw all the code in the first post. Thank you though! :smallbiggrin: I try to never turn down a kind offer.

Got an idea I like I am rolling around in my head to make more interesting hopefully... :smallcool:

rockdeworld

2013-04-07, 03:56 AM

Dang... This is up there with Thief of Life as one of the PrCs I've been waiting for, but I really ought to hold off and judge.

If we get at least three people willing to judge, I'm in to compete. If three people don't express interest in judging, then I'll volunteer - I'm way overdue for a round of judging.

Either way, as a competitor or as a judge, I'm excited to see what everyone cooks!
Go ahead and cook something up. If one more person agrees to judge, I will too, so you'll have your 3 judges and can cook.

Edit: it would be better to say I might judge, since I'm feeling really busy right now, and I don't know where I'll be in two weeks. But I still say if you want to compete, compete! :smallbiggrin:

mattie_p

2013-04-07, 10:24 AM

Venger

2013-04-07, 10:33 AM

I am now in the beginning phases of "There is something I'd like to use, but it is obvious, so everyone will use it, but they might realize that, so no one will use it." Have we developed a name for that? I'll nominate Schrödinger's build.

yes we have. I have referred to the process as vizziniing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0) myself

Callin

2013-04-07, 11:11 AM

Question

Do we have to use all of the levels of the SI?

Draz74

2013-04-07, 11:12 AM

yes we have. I have referred to the process as vizziniing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0) myself

Good name. Better than a misleading analogy to that poor Cat. :smallwink:

mattie_p

2013-04-07, 11:13 AM

Question

Do we have to use all of the levels of the SI?

No, but Use of Secret Ingredient may be penalized as a result.

yes we have. I have referred to the process as vizziniing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0) myself

Then I am Vizzini-ing right now.

Callin

2013-04-07, 11:14 AM

Thanks mattie_p

Kazyan

2013-04-07, 11:16 AM

I might be submitting two dishes, though I'm having trouble coming up with enough tricks to get a high UotSI score for the second...

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-07, 11:22 AM

Go ahead and cook something up. If one more person agrees to judge, I will too, so you'll have your 3 judges and can cook.

Edit: it would be better to say I might judge, since I'm feeling really busy right now, and I don't know where I'll be in two weeks. But I still say if you want to compete, compete! :smallbiggrin:

I appreciate the thought, but don't worry about it. There's always going to be a fun ingredient, and I'm actually looking forward to judging again - I haven't done so since HotWM.

Venger

2013-04-07, 11:39 AM

I am now in the beginning phases of "There is something I'd like to use, but it is obvious, so everyone will use it, but they might realize that, so no one will use it." Have we developed a name for that? I'll nominate Schrödinger's build.

Schroedinger already has a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14561276&postcount=164)

that was a good round. I actually managed to come out of it with gold.

until the judgings were posted :P

Haluesen

2013-04-07, 11:53 AM

Hehe that Vizzini...best term ever heard. :smallbiggrin:

Ooh crap, we get penalized for not using all of it? :smalleek: That didn't fully come to mind...

Vaz

2013-04-07, 12:36 PM

Yep. Otherwise you might as well dip it, or even not take it. However, if the class has a logical cut off point, and too much of the SI is taken, it might resort in points lost for power. IE if you have a 13 level base build (say Duskblade) and the SI had only its first 7 decent levels, then taking the last 3 could result in a hefty ding.

sabelo2000

2013-04-07, 01:37 PM

It is possible, though not likely, that if you build a character who gets a legitimate power boost from the first 5-7 levels, and is better suited to NOT taking all 10, AND if you present a convincing case in your write-up, that judges might not penalize you for not taking all 10 levels. After all, the scores are all up to the judges' interpretation and I haven't seen any judge state explicitly in his/her criteria "Not taking all 10 levels will result in a penalty". A more significant reduction usually comes from not USING all the levels you take.

That said, it's pretty much assumed we'll use all 10 levels of the SI class.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-07, 01:40 PM

In general I agree with everyone, and taking all 10 levels of the SI is the safer bet. But...

I've only submitted two builds that didn't complete the SI. One placed silver, the other placed gold. I got some penalties for it, but I made up in other areas. So, if you've got a pretty compelling reason to not finish the SI, and you feel like you've still captured the feel of the class, I'd say go for it. It's a risk - but risks are half the fun.

EDIT:

After all, the scores are all up to the judges' interpretation and I haven't seen any judge state explicitly in his/her criteria "Not taking all 10 levels will result in a penalty".

To be fair, I have. In fact, I believe that there was a competition where a judge more or less divided the number of SI levels by 2 for his UoSI scoring, so a character with all ten levels got a 5, while a character with seven levels would get a 3.5. And I'm pretty sure I've seen other judges include "not completing the SI" in their scoring rubric.

The Viscount

2013-04-07, 01:45 PM

Venger

2013-04-07, 01:49 PM

Haluesen

2013-04-07, 01:51 PM

Eh yikes. A little more complicated than that then. :smalleek: Guess I need to look over my plan and see if it needs all the levels, and any possible reasoning why it wouldn't.

Truth be told I could make a character using the SI and everything thought out in 2 days. But I don't feel like I would really have it right and would probably make a few mistakes along the way in haste. So I guess here it is better for me to take the 2 weeks to really think it out. Thanks everyone for explaining this to me! :smallsmile:

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-07, 02:13 PM

Disclaimer: Not everyone is a chef of Piggy Knowles' caliber. Use levels of the SI at your own discretion. That being said, I will point to T.G. Oskar's Mortimus Vozh as another great build that attained silver using only 9 levels of the SI. He well explained his reasons, though.

That was a great example - a bold move, especially because Death Delver's capstone was so iconic, and was what almost everyone else really played up in their builds. I liked Mortimus Vozh a lot.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12833252&postcount=208) are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203737&postcount=310) some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14384433&postcount=66) other (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14083582&postcount=61) builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13150950&postcount=99) that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8011614&postcount=116) got (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8798103&postcount=135) medals (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8991338&postcount=220) despite not taking full levels in the SI. (And there are more, I'm sure!)

mattie_p

2013-04-07, 03:47 PM

I did win second place with Eglath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13150950&postcount=99), in Temple Raider, despite taking 8/10 levels, and an incomplete skill list (ran out of time). The penalties did hurt, though, at least a little.

The Viscount

2013-04-07, 10:26 PM

I doubt we'll see many builds without 10 levels of the SI. That capstone is so...so...so actually a capstone.

Kazyan

2013-04-07, 11:11 PM

Muhahaha I have enough tricks to submit two builds. This is a good ingredient, really. But I think elegance will take some knocks, at least.

Haluesen

2013-04-07, 11:21 PM

Well, truthfully while it is a great capstone, taking all of it, I can see as bad for the build I'm working on. It takes away more than it gives, without saying too much. So either I need to accept that and go on, or I need to get a new idea. :smallfrown:

Yeah I'm one of the kind of people who over-stresses about choices like this. I'm scared...

The Viscount

2013-04-08, 01:18 AM

Don't worry too much. I mean, we all get worried about this sort of thing sometimes. I'm pretty worried someone might use a similar build to mine, but the best we can do is cook on and flavor to the best of our abilities. At the end of the day, it's really about what is most faithful to the character, at least in my opinion.

Haluesen

2013-04-08, 01:28 AM

Alrighty I'll try not to get too worked up. Honestly I just have fun making interesting characters. But I didn't know a thing about real optimization, or focused character building, until recent months, basically all learned from here. Played D&D a while, just all the people I was associated with never got much into all of what I learned here. Funny when you think about it. :smallbiggrin: And hasn't spoiled the game for me a bit!

So, in my over excited and very really tired way, I say I hope everyone involved in this has a lot of fun. I'm certain to. Even if I still have a lot to learn from the fine people here.

And for the record: that last sentence, so absolutely true. :smallsmile:

Alanto

2013-04-08, 06:52 AM

Well, I've never entered one of these before, but it sounds fun and I've got a concept in mind. I'll get to cooking...

Vaz

2013-04-08, 08:28 AM

So far, all of my builds are actually just 10 level City Dweller builds with the SI added on.

Unless I can get something decent decent soonish, then I'm going to be going to pop my judging cherry.

rockdeworld

2013-04-08, 08:47 AM

Truth be told I could make a character using the SI and everything thought out in 2 days. But I don't feel like I would really have it right and would probably make a few mistakes along the way in haste. So I guess here it is better for me to take the 2 weeks to really think it out.
Someone once told me something like "always throw out your first two ideas." I don't know how true that is, since my first two ideas have done well in the past. But in the previous comp, I built and submitted 2 builds that didn't get above 11th (one was the joke build that wasn't posted), and the 3rd got gold. Point is: why not just finish building this one and start another, and see where that gets you? If I think of my first build as practice, the second is easier to make.

Shining Wrath

2013-04-08, 09:02 AM

yes we have. I have referred to the process as vizziniing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0) myself

Never go up against Shining Wrath with Iron Chef medals on the line! MWAHAHAHAHA urk! topples

Amphetryon

2013-04-08, 09:46 AM

Never go up against Shining Wrath with Iron Chef medals on the line! MWAHAHAHAHA urk! topples

I knew I left my iocaine powder around here someplace.

Haluesen

2013-04-08, 10:11 AM

@Alanto Yay more new people! I'm not alone! :smallbiggrin:

@rockdeworld Hmm good advice, I might just do that. I like my first idea, but not really from an optimization point of view, which is what I guess this challenge is about, so I might have to end up replacing it. But if I do, I may just mention the idea to others for opinions on how it would work as just a character on its own merits. May be a fun idea for a future campaign. ^^

@Shining Wrath and Amphetryon XD I just laughed my face off at this (somewhat). Props for first thing in the morning comedy. If I had cookies to give I would.

Deadline

2013-04-08, 12:00 PM

I'll be cooking again this time around, unless my test dishes fall flat.

mattie_p

2013-04-08, 12:24 PM

Two ideas, which one to work on first. Who am I kidding, I'll do both at the same time.

darklink_shadow

2013-04-08, 12:38 PM

I am starting to wonder if I will actually have any free time to work on these. Stupid college, interfering with my hobbies.

dysprosium

2013-04-08, 12:42 PM

I hate when real life gets in the way!

Phippster

2013-04-08, 04:26 PM

I'm interested in competing. Definitely seems like a fun ingredient for my first time cooking.

Callin

2013-04-08, 06:25 PM

Gonna try my hand in the Majors. Cooking a Dish

Darkcouch

2013-04-08, 08:15 PM

Was almost ready to put my dish in the oven, rerolled my reading comprehension and passed this time, and realized that my build wasn't even close to being legal. Now I'm drawing a blank. I'll throw my hat in as a probable judge this go round.

Kazyan

2013-04-08, 08:19 PM

So, one of my builds turning out neatly. The other one is tanking Elegance and screaming YOLO. Does this happen to anyone else?

Callin

2013-04-08, 08:24 PM

No idea honestly. This is only the second contest i have entered lol. My idea is built but im struggling with certain areas.

Like the sweetspot and background.

Phippster

2013-04-08, 08:33 PM

So, one of my builds turning out neatly. The other one is tanking Elegance and screaming YOLO. Does this happen to anyone else?

I'm working on two builds at the moment as well, and I'm having a similar problem with the first. I actually feel as though it'll do well on Elegance, but I'm struggling to not have them absolutely tank in power. I think I've got a solution, but it's still not looking all that hot.

The Viscount

2013-04-08, 08:59 PM

No idea honestly. This is only the second contest i have entered lol. My idea is built but im struggling with certain areas.

Like the sweetspot and background.

Sweet spot is a relatively minor aspect. If you denote one of your level snapshots your sweet spot, it's fine. If nothing's feeling too strong just pick one. Background is an elusive thing. Usually enough to get a feel for what your character is like is fine. We've had backstories long enough that the build took up 2 posts, and we've had backstories of a few haiku.

@Kazyan: When I built Bjorn Ioreksen I was certain I was going to get a hit to elegance for abusing versatile spellcaster, but the power score called to me. Then I built Tacgnol, which was sacrificing Elegance for originality. The former panned out, the latter didn't. Elegance is an odd category.

Callin

2013-04-08, 09:08 PM

Thanks Viscount! Makes it a bit easier now.

edit. the Snapshot. Does that mean a complete and total build. HP and items and such?

Venger

2013-04-08, 09:19 PM

Thanks Viscount! Makes it a bit easier now.

edit. the Snapshot. Does that mean a complete and total build. HP and items and such?

don't do items, or judges will penalize you for being overly reliant on equipment. (and equipment takes forever to buy) just list a few important items if you think they're necessary for a trick or something, we'll assume your character has normal stuff (item to boost primary ability mod, bag of holding, etc) hp's not necessary since we know what HD your classes have from your citations and know your con score at any given lvl

sabelo2000

2013-04-09, 12:27 AM

Wow, lots of new Chefs expressing interest this round. Welcome to you, gals and guys, I look forward to your competition!

Amphetryon

2013-04-09, 07:12 AM

don't do items, or judges will penalize you for being overly reliant on equipment. (and equipment takes forever to buy) just list a few important items if you think they're necessary for a trick or something, we'll assume your character has normal stuff (item to boost primary ability mod, bag of holding, etc) hp's not necessary since we know what HD your classes have from your citations and know your con score at any given lvl

Addendum: If it is important that your Character uses a particular weapon/magic item, or you simply wish to highlight how a particular item would enhance your Character's abilities or options, you should probably list it, in an "options" section if nowhere else. Otherwise, a judge may not notice a particular synergy or trick that becomes self-evident when that item is available. Likewise, if you're building a particularly hardy Character - or a particularly frail one who avoids direct combat and contributes in other ways - a passing indication of expected HP range at one or more given level(s) can potentially help a judge understand your Character's role.

Vaz

2013-04-09, 07:28 AM

Right, I've got my build. Think I'm going to go ahead with it.

Lazers etcetera

2013-04-09, 07:48 AM

Long time listener, first time caller. I have been reading IC threads for ages, wondering whether to register and apply.

Time to bite the bullet. It's all about which city.

nobodez

2013-04-09, 09:26 AM

I'm stepping out of this. While on first glance I thought I could cook up something good, I've yet to figure out any sort of concept that works beyond the superficial (likely should have picked a better SI to start with).

I've also realized that I haven't played v.3.5 in something like three years, and I'm having a hard time converting back from Pathfinder.

I will, though, enjoy seeing what others have cooked up.

123456789blaaa

2013-04-09, 09:51 AM

Just looking at the OP again...that is a LOT of competitions. How long has IC been going on for again?

Vaz

2013-04-09, 10:03 AM

The first thread link says 18th Feb 2010, so 3ish years.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-09, 10:07 AM

The first thread link says 18th Feb 2010, so 3ish years.

Longer than that, actually. It began on the BG boards - maybe three contests there?

What's amazing is how many terrible prestige classes are still left to do...

Shining Wrath

2013-04-09, 10:26 AM

Long time listener, first time caller. I have been reading IC threads for ages, wondering whether to register and apply.

Time to bite the bullet. It's all about which city.

I've been thinking about this ... and I have one build that's city independent in mind, and one that's more city-dependent. I will need to find time to cook both.

Vaz

2013-04-09, 10:29 AM

Deadline

2013-04-09, 11:43 AM

Let's keep this sane - Human or [human] applicants only, please.

So, given the contention Tarantella raised with the judges last round, I feel compelled to ask if we could get a ruling from the chairman on what qualifies.

Anything with the Human subtype
Any Humanoid with the Human subtype [i.e. Humanoid(Human)]
Only Humans as per the PHB.

Thanks!

Kazyan

2013-04-09, 11:47 AM

Another thing about Tarantella--I'll never do that again. Sorry, guys. If it comes down to it, Elegance 0 is still an option, but from now on I will always judge any entry when I'm judging.

Vaz

2013-04-09, 11:57 AM

The thing that struck me was the amount of entries which tried to be original and choose a bestial race; 2 were mine, but we had a Dragon, Werewolf, werefox, and Spider. And of the racial variants as well, several were used; Fire Elf and Forestlord Half Elf notably as I used both myself. Was highly surprised (and grateful) that that wasn't penalised.

I know that if I had been judging, I might have penalised (only a small amount) given the racial prerequisite.

The question is, how many Silverblood Humans are in this build, as people try to be unique and shy away from PHB humans.

As a quick question; mainly at the chairman, as I know I PM'd him referring to ways around Racial Prerequisites in the last competition; we came up with two between us; are these valid?

Deadline

2013-04-09, 11:58 AM

Another thing about Tarantella--I'll never do that again. Sorry, guys. If it comes down to it, Elegance 0 is still an option, but from now on I will always judge any entry when I'm judging.

In all honesty Kazyan, I respect your decision, and I owe you an apology. My reading comprehension fail resulted in you being put in a difficult position, and I'm sorry for that.

I think this ingredient will lend itself less to entries that are blatantly disqualified (like Tarantella), but will potentially result in quibbles about what is required to qualify for things that list Human as a requirement. If the chairman is content to leave that up to individual judges, I have no issue with it, I'd just like to see if we can resolve that sort of thing before people go too far down certain roads.

Heck, I'm not even sure I'll be submitting any dishes where this ruling matters, but better safe than sorry.

The question is, how many Silverblood Humans are in this build, as people try to be unique and shy away from PHB humans.

Shhh, you'll ruin my plan to get full originality points with a bog standard human! :smallwink:

Kazyan

2013-04-09, 12:11 PM

I don't think it was 100% anyone's fault, Deadline, and no harm came from the debacle except maybe the Chairman getting confused. You got HM at least. The issue is that it was basically unprecedented, not disrespect of any kind. We still don't know how to resolve it if it comes up aagain and Kuul seems weirded out, so I'm just gonna not do that again. No big deal, really. Ths is a mock-formal min-maxing contest; no need for rustled jimmies. :smalltongue:

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-09, 12:14 PM

As a judge, I personally will not consider anything with the [Human] subtype to be illegal as an entry. There are some methods that get you the subtype I might find inelegant, but as for actual qualification, by my reading if you're [Human], you qualify.

Haluesen

2013-04-09, 12:45 PM

Wow I am so behind on all this. :( What constitutes human subtype? I've been rattling my brain over it and looking through so many books, and all I've got so far is human, silverblood, and maybe half humans, even that no guarantees. I have not a clue what else applies.

Beyond that though I love how many interesting ideas come to mind for qualifying for this class. :smallamused:

There really have been a lot of these ICs. :smalleek: It's rather incredible. I just wish I had known about this sooner. I would had a lot of fun working with the last SI.

Vaz

2013-04-09, 01:09 PM

I don't want to spoil anything or any other builds, but if a race is a human, or human subtype, it will list it. The book the SI is in, Races of Destiny is the largest and easiest source of human races, but there are others, and if you know where to look, potentially a way around the racial requirement.

An example is underfolk. I can use this as an example because the underfolk actually don't qualify (without some lairy fluff) for the SI, but if you have a look, it clearly expresses they are [human].

in regards to the last SI, trust me, you wouldn't have enjoyed it. it was vile. it made me make some really stupid mistakes, and lose sight of what the Comp was about.

Haluesen

2013-04-09, 01:21 PM

Aww. :smallconfused: Well, okay. I trust the judgement of people here more than my own. Still learning stuff after all. So okay. What was the problem with it though?

And yeah alright, I gotta look closer at those races then. :smalltongue: See what works!

Draz74

2013-04-09, 01:37 PM

I've also realized that I haven't played v.3.5 in something like three years, and I'm having a hard time converting back from Pathfinder.

Yeah, last round I was surprised how rusty I was at building 3.5e characters, since I've basically given it up in favor of Legend and CRE8.

Kazyan

2013-04-09, 01:39 PM

What was the problem with it though?

It was extremely difficult to make functional. Abominable prereqs and no unique class features to speak of, everything it did could be replicated by 5 levels in Duskblade and a few feats, except for the AC booster, which Abj.Champ does better. It also held you back with nerfed casting and requiring a free hand. Bladesinger is just terribadawful.

nedz

2013-04-09, 02:04 PM

Well, I was just about to submit my entry when I stumbled across a major RAW violation which renders the whole concept illegal. I'm putting my build back in the fridge whilst I consider what to do about it.:smallannoyed:

The Viscount

2013-04-09, 02:42 PM

the Snapshot. Does that mean a complete and total build. HP and items and such?

You can present as much as you want, really, but most chefs I see are content with the table and summaries of every 5 levels. I'll be lazy and point you to the example in my sig. Feel free to compare to some other ones, such as Venger and Piggy.

Lazers etcetera

2013-04-09, 02:53 PM

This (http://dndtools.eu/classes/?name=&characterclassvariant__rulebook__slug=&prestige=2&characterclassvariant__required_bab_0=&characterclassvariant__required_bab_1=&characterclassvariant__skill_points_0=&characterclassvariant__skill_points_1=&characterclassvariant__class_features=&characterclassvariant__hit_die_0=&characterclassvariant__hit_die_1=) suggests that there are over 700 classes. If we say that there are 20 that are cheese, and 350 that are decent and fairly unique, that leaves 400 or so.

If I hazard a guess and say that of those left there are 100 that are not suitable for IC (less than 10 levels, say), that means there's still about 250 left to do! Wheeeeee

And some I have never seen discussed here. Justice of Weald and Woe has a lot of entry requirements and isn't very focused but the it gives quite a lot of interesting things - sneak attack, super bow skills and a unique spell list. I may not be the world's greatest class, but something can be done with it, it isn't like Bladesinger which is just megauseless or Initiate of Pistis Sophia which has incredible entry requirements and then does nothing.

On the other hand... Royal Explorer for example requires a lot of qualifications (8 ranks in profession: cartography :smallmad:) and gives you... Some bonus languages and fear immunity. Over ten levels.

It's one of those classes that doesn't have much to do with anything else, and you can't fight good. :smallannoyed:

Similar problem with Urban Soul actually. Urban Soul has more cool going for it, granted. Has anyone tried to play one in a game?

Callin

2013-04-09, 03:00 PM

Heck no. Being stuck in the city does not mesh well with my or my groups playstyle.

nobodez

2013-04-09, 03:05 PM

Heck no. Being stuck in the city does not mesh well with my or my groups playstyle.

Well,,in some settings, the City is all you need. I can think of two off the top of my head. Plus, depending on you definition of where a city's boundaries are, I can think of a few more. And each are in different settings. My problem was that I kept thinking in PF, even while reading my copious v.3.5 books.

Vaz

2013-04-09, 04:57 PM

There's a FR book dedicated to a city at least. One for Eberron too IIRC, but I've not played that yet, and rarely book dive within.

The real trick is to get him out of the city.

nedz

2013-04-09, 05:29 PM

The real trick is to get him out of the city.

Sounds pretty easy, but why would he want to ?

Haluesen

2013-04-09, 05:40 PM

Ah I see. :smallfrown: Guess I've never looked at the class that closely before. I'm just a fan of many gish ideas. I love the Duckblade though. :smallsmile:

so, just throwing this out there, but do any half-humans count for the purpose of this class? And I can think of quite a few. :smallsmile: Everyone here says [human], but do half humans fit that?

Amechra

2013-04-09, 05:48 PM

Actually, yeah; do half-humans count, due to that variant from Races of Destiny?

Or is that not kosher?

I mean, you could sacrifice a feat on Human Heritage...

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-09, 06:02 PM

Actually, yeah; do half-humans count, due to that variant from Races of Destiny?

Or is that not kosher?

I mean, you could sacrifice a feat on Human Heritage...

I'm away from my copy of RoD right now, but isn't that listed as a variant rule?

EDIT: I checked, and it is listed as a variant rule. It also has some far-reaching implications, including turning tieflings and aasimar from outsiders into humanoids. I can't speak for other judges, but personally I will probably deduct for its usage, especially since the Human Heritage feat exists. So, unless the Word of God Kuulvheysoon comes down and tells me to do otherwise, I will go by the core rules and treat half-elves as humanoids with the [Elf] subtype, half-orcs as Humanoids with the [Orc] subtype, and so on.

EDIT #2: And, silly me, I hadn't checked the first page for updates. The Word of God Kuulvheysoon has already come down, and yeah, no-go on the variant rules from p150 of Races of Destiny.

Again, as a judge, for me "Human" means "a creature with the [Human] subtype." Half-elves, half-orcs, half-ogres and the various other "half-" races do not have the [Human] subtype out of the box, so unless you've got a way of finagling that subtype onto them, I will not consider those to be a legal entry and penalize Elegance/UoSI accordingly.

.....aaaand, that's all I really want to go into this topic anymore for fear of influencing builds.

Haluesen

2013-04-09, 06:07 PM

I believe someone pointed out that adaptation earlier and said no, but that was specifically to nonhuman. Someone earlier just said "humans and human subtype". I just don't know what fits that subtype. Silverblood humans of course, but what about either a creature that was already half human, or human with a template? Or in either of those cases, could Human Heritage make it acceptable?

Callin

2013-04-09, 06:08 PM

How about the non-human Adaptation section? In a word? No. Humans and [human]s only.

from the second post regarding the rules

dont know exactly what it means though lol.

Dumbledore lives

2013-04-09, 06:24 PM

This class is freaking sweet. I'm going to make something, though I don't know what.

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-09, 08:01 PM

I'm away from my copy of RoD right now, but isn't that listed as a variant rule?

EDIT: I checked, and it is listed as a variant rule. It also has some far-reaching implications, including turning tieflings and aasimar from outsiders into humanoids. I can't speak for other judges, but personally I will probably deduct for its usage, especially since the Human Heritage feat exists. So, unless the Word of God Kuulvheysoon comes down and tells me to do otherwise, I will go by the core rules and treat half-elves as humanoids with the [Elf] subtype, half-orcs as Humanoids with the [Orc] subtype, and so on.

EDIT #2: And, silly me, I hadn't checked the first page for updates. The Word of God Kuulvheysoon has already come down, and yeah, no-go on the variant rules from p150 of Races of Destiny.

Again, as a judge, for me "Human" means "a creature with the [Human] subtype." Half-elves, half-orcs, half-ogres and the various other "half-" races do not have the [Human] subtype out of the box, so unless you've got a way of finagling that subtype onto them, I will not consider those to be a legal entry and penalize Elegance/UoSI accordingly.

.....aaaand, that's all I really want to go into this topic anymore for fear of influencing builds.

I hope you aren't slamming originality for human heritage since everyone is just chatty-chatty about it all out in the open.

Always cringe a little when the foundation for the build you been working on for days makes its way into open discussion.

Haluesen

2013-04-09, 08:10 PM

Alright then, thanks for the elaboration. :smallbiggrin: That helps.

It also helps that I'm still just throwing ideas around in my head. So I don't have to worry about people having my idea yet. :smallcool:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-09, 08:21 PM

So, given the contention Tarantella raised with the judges last round, I feel compelled to ask if we could get a ruling from the chairman on what qualifies.

Anything with the Human subtype
Any Humanoid with the Human subtype [i.e. Humanoid(Human)]
Only Humans as per the PHB.

Thanks!

Yes.

I don't think it was 100% anyone's fault, Deadline, and no harm came from the debacle except maybe the Chairman getting confused. You got HM at least. The issue is that it was basically unprecedented, not disrespect of any kind. We still don't know how to resolve it if it comes up again and Kuul seems weirded out, so I'm just gonna not do that again. No big deal, really. Ths is a mock-formal min-maxing contest; no need for rustled jimmies. :smalltongue:

Not weirded out, more... intimidated. I mean, we created a (true) precedent for what to do if this happens again. The only other time it happened, it was sort of glossed over.

There's a FR book dedicated to a city at least. One for Eberron too IIRC, but I've not played that yet, and rarely book dive within.

I know the Eberron one is Sharn, City of Towers and I believe that the FR one is a Waterdeep book, isn't it?

I'm away from my copy of RoD right now, but isn't that listed as a variant rule?

EDIT: I checked, and it is listed as a variant rule. It also has some far-reaching implications, including turning tieflings and aasimar from outsiders into humanoids. I can't speak for other judges, but personally I will probably deduct for its usage, especially since the Human Heritage feat exists. So, unless the Word of God Kuulvheysoon comes down and tells me to do otherwise, I will go by the core rules and treat half-elves as humanoids with the [Elf] subtype, half-orcs as Humanoids with the [Orc] subtype, and so on.

EDIT #2: And, silly me, I hadn't checked the first page for updates. The Word of God Kuulvheysoon has already come down, and yeah, no-go on the variant rules from p150 of Races of Destiny.

Again, as a judge, for me "Human" means "a creature with the [Human] subtype." Half-elves, half-orcs, half-ogres and the various other "half-" races do not have the [Human] subtype out of the box, so unless you've got a way of finagling that subtype onto them, I will not consider those to be a legal entry and penalize Elegance/UoSI accordingly.

.....aaaand, that's all I really want to go into this topic anymore for fear of influencing builds.

Human Heritage (providing you can explain why your race is eligible to take the feat) is a kosher way of grabbing the [human] subtype, by my reading.

Amechra

2013-04-09, 09:18 PM

Out of curiosity, Humans always count as Human, even if they are Undead or some other type, right?

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-09, 09:35 PM

Out of curiosity, Humans always count as Human, even if they are Undead or some other type, right?

If the template that changed them changes them so that they always were that way then no. If the template is tacked onto them then yes. For instance a human lich in your example will be Undead (Augmented humanoid [human])

Edit:

Sharn, City of Towers

Human Heritage (providing you can explain why your race is eligible to take the feat) is a kosher way of grabbing the [human] subtype, by my reading.

Stahp talking about my build :smalleek:

The Viscount

2013-04-10, 12:34 AM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-10, 12:39 AM

Out of curiosity, Humans always count as Human, even if they are Undead or some other type, right?

Not necessarily. The sample Vampire, Lich, and Ghost all have the augmented humanoid subtype, but not the human subtype. Also, why are we typing [human] instead of (human)? I was confused the first few times and was thinking of spell descriptors.

Also Kuulvheysoon seems to be indicating that nonhumanoids with the (human) subtype will not qualify.

Guess I contradicted myself there, didn't I (what with the Human Heritage business and whatnot). The important bit is the [human] part. So, technically, I guess, a Chaond with the Human Heritage feat could qualify (despite being an Outsider).

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-10, 01:42 AM

Not necessarily. The sample Vampire, Lich, and Ghost all have the augmented humanoid subtype, but not the human subtype.

humanoid is always modified by a subtype regardless of whether or not it is augmented. augmented humanoid (human) is their subtype in these scenarios.

Vaz

2013-04-10, 04:04 AM

Seeing as on method is already out there; do you qualify if;

you are a Changeling with Racial Emulation?

or

you become human from the Shaper of form class feature?

mattie_p

2013-04-10, 05:36 AM

OMG PONIES

2013-04-10, 06:33 AM

Amechra

2013-04-10, 06:46 AM

I, <name redacted>, offer $<amount redacted> to the victor of this competition.

There.

Now we're competing for money! An undisclosed sum, but money nonetheless.

Vaz

2013-04-10, 06:55 AM

Wow, we are just putting it all out there. Chefs, why don't we do like we did in other rounds and not talk about how to qualify for the secret ingredient? If you really have a question, take it to pm, the RAW thread, or just hope for the best with your judges. Thanks.

If everything was better as to how it was done in the past, surely we'd still be living in caves going "ugg"?

People are going to want to come up with originality in their builds; this is getting harder and harder to do with all sorts of previous IC build themes, and especially with a racial pre-requisite people will look to what ways there are around that; hence last SI having two Werecreatures, a Dragonborn and a Drider, as well as pretty much ANY variant elf or half-elf around you could think of.

Humans; there isn't so much of that, and EVERYONE is going to want to strive towards getting that extra .25/.5 in Originality for not being a PHB Human, which leads us to where exactly is the line of Human drawn the line at; "Half-Human", [Human], PHB Human alone, or things which allow other races to count as human.

As this pertains to pretty much everyone, and due to race being such an ill defined term in the rules (despite its seeming ease of explanation) with various "bypasses" it's much easier to leg it out all in the open.

A lot of effort (comparatively) goes towards these entries, for something that's not even likely to be used overmuch in a game, and with the amount of entries that go in, I'd much rather put effort in to something that's not going to get sacked straight away for Elegance for the sake of a couple of points of Originality; so it's a choice of air a few ideas around (which may or may not actually be used), or enter two and double the workload.

OMG PONIES

2013-04-10, 08:12 AM

Callin

2013-04-10, 08:13 AM

I gotta agree with mattie_p on this.

Vaz

2013-04-10, 08:16 AM

Or you could always PM the chairman any questions allowing him to respond individually or add to the FAQ at the start of the thread, thus allowing folks to preserve at least the illusion of originality :smallbiggrin:.

Fair point. Conceeded.

There's still another three quarters though. Bromigo.

http://4.images.spike.com/images/shows/blue-mountain-state/bios/BMS_ThadV2.jpg?width=267&quality=0.91

OMG PONIES

2013-04-10, 08:41 AM

Fair point. Conceeded.

There's still another three quarters though. Bromigo.

Indeed there are, Broham...and cheese?

http://www.tropicalboating.com/wp-content/uploadsboating/2012/08/ham-and-cheese.jpg

I was never very good at sounding tough, always made me hungry :smalltongue:.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-10, 09:07 AM

As an addendum, as a judge I'm fine with clarifying what I consider a "Human" to be, which I have done. I draw the line at discussing actual build elements, though. Asking about specific races, feats and classes (or combinations thereof) definitely crosses that line.

Vaz

2013-04-10, 09:08 AM

As an addendum, as a judge I'm fine with clarifying what I consider a "Himan" to be, which I have done. I draw the line at discussing actual build elements, though. Asking about specific races, feats and classes (or combinations thereof) definitely crosses that line.

Quoting for posterity.

nedz

2013-04-10, 10:28 AM

OK, fixed up my dish and placed it on the table.

I'll think about doing another one, I still have 10 days.

Haluesen

2013-04-10, 12:04 PM

Alright, much discussion on race. Which in the end ended up being so convoluted that it's nearly impossible to know what anyone will do. :smallbiggrin:

Got a dish that might need a little more work, and am really considering another for fun. :smalltongue:

Lazers etcetera

2013-04-10, 12:51 PM

Alright, much discussion on race. Which in the end ended up being so convoluted that it's nearly impossible to know what anyone will do. :smallbiggrin:

So, it worked out okay then. :thog:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-10, 01:20 PM

Vaz was pretty close to the mark on why I let this run so far. There's a fair number of new competitors here too, and I wanted to get their creative juices flowing.

But it's gone far enough. If you haven't figured out how to (racially) qualify by now, well...

Regardless, I'm putting my foot down. Any more questions about Racial Qualification should be directed towards me - I don't want to see anything else in-thread.

Haluesen

2013-04-10, 01:46 PM

Alright sounds good, no more qualifications talk. :smallsmile: So yep, did work out good!

So just being sure, based on reading the last few challenges: these need full build on chart, analysis at a few points, and character backstory. Anything else I am advised to include, before I start writing it all? :smallbiggrin:

OMG PONIES

2013-04-10, 01:59 PM

Which in the end ended up being so convoluted that it's nearly impossible to know what anyone will do. :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like your typical discussion around these parts :smalltongue:.

So just being sure, based on reading the last few challenges: these need full build on chart, analysis at a few points, and character backstory. Anything else I am advised to include, before I start writing it all? :smallbiggrin:

A list of sources used can never steer you wrong. Also, depending on what you mean by a "full build" please be sure to include at least:
Ability scores
Spells/Maneuvers/Psionics/infusions/invocations/whatever

Everything else is pretty much "to taste," but some folks have included:

Suggested equipment: viewed differently by various judges, especially based on what is presented and how it is addressed.
Adaptation options: things that may not fly at every table or are nice to have, but not allowed. For instance, I will never deduct someone for including an adaptation section saying what they'd change if flaws were allowed or LA buyoff was a gimme. I am but one judge, your mileage may vary.
Play notes: What important things would you want folks trying your build at the table to know? How does it interact with other PCs, etc?
Combos: May already be included in what you mentioned, but highlight any particularly nasty tricks.
Bribes for the judges: I accept cash, check, money order, wire, Western Union, Visa, MasterCard, baked goods, etc.
A pretty picture

The one thing I can tell you is a crucial key to submitting better builds, though, is this: Proofread. It's amazing how many things we can catch and correct ourselves that truly do translate to better scores. Most importantly, have fun :smallcool:.

123456789blaaa

2013-04-10, 02:31 PM

A "use of SI" section is also sometimes added. The contestant goes through each feature of the SI and explains how it contributes to the build.

Amphetryon

2013-04-10, 02:35 PM

I definately ugree with OMG PONYS. Faylyur too proofreed yore entree is almost garunteed two caust ewe with at least won judge.

Callin

2013-04-10, 02:42 PM

Yup I lost major points in a contest for not proofreading my build. This time I went over it again and again and again and asked the wife to help me with my grammar because I suck at it.

So no lost points this time I hope lol :smallbiggrin:

Shining Wrath

2013-04-10, 02:45 PM

Callin

2013-04-10, 02:50 PM

Vaz

2013-04-10, 03:33 PM

Talk with no capital letters, do you?

In regards to proof-reading, not just that you've got your SI covered, but all your feats. I came unstuck in the last IC due to forgetting that I didn't qualify for Weapon Focus and Dodge, with the BAB and stated Dex at the time. All it would have required was a quick shuffle around of levels and attribute, but I got a hefty .5 penalty on both my builds. The qualification for the SI is not just the trick, but qualifying for everything else is.

Shining Wrath

2013-04-10, 03:34 PM

maybe....

I just type the way that I talk. Im not trying to impress anybody on the internet. :smallbiggrin: I did fail almost every grammar test in school and after 7th grade it wasnt really taught anymore. In High School I took reading classes because I like to read.

On Topic
...... i got nothing.

I see nothing wrong with how you write. Like you, my grammar is primarily the result of reading what other people wrote and absorbing grammar indirectly.

Haluesen

2013-04-10, 04:25 PM

Hmm interesting. I'll be sure to think about all that while writing everything. Good thing we got time. :smallsmile: Proofread, shouldn't be too hard. Thank you all! :smallbiggrin:

Deadline

2013-04-10, 04:40 PM

Aaaaarrrrgh! *Throws dish in the trash*

Ahem. Looks like that approach won't pan out. It was my intent to submit two dishes, but unless I can get dish number 2 to cooperate and work according to the rules, I may need to cut back.

Also, while this SI has a significant cool factor going for it, it's absolutely awful for anything that isn't an NPC.

OMG PONIES

2013-04-10, 05:01 PM

In regards to proof-reading, not just that you've got your SI covered, but all your feats. I came unstuck in the last IC due to forgetting that I didn't qualify for Weapon Focus and Dodge, with the BAB and stated Dex at the time. All it would have required was a quick shuffle around of levels and attribute, but I got a hefty .5 penalty on both my builds. The qualification for the SI is not just the trick, but qualifying for everything else is.

This is what I meant; I'm less pedantic about spelling and punctuation than I am about entry requirements. Luckily I haven't started counting skill ranks every level to verify accuracy...yet :smallamused:.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-10, 05:44 PM

This is what I meant; I'm less pedantic about spelling and punctuation than I am about entry requirements. Luckily I haven't started counting skill ranks every level to verify accuracy...yet :smallamused:.

You mean... you mean you don't obsessively add up skill points even as you're scanning over a build? Heck, I do that on almost every build I read! Doesn't everyone?

("Hi, my name is Piggy Knowles, and I have a problem...")

Callin

2013-04-10, 06:11 PM

I did that last night while i was finalizing. Turned out i left out 1 WHOLE LEVEL of points lol.

OMG PONIES

2013-04-10, 09:43 PM

You mean... you mean you don't obsessively add up skill points even as you're scanning over a build? Heck, I do that on almost every build I read! Doesn't everyone?

("Hi, my name is Piggy Knowles, and I have a problem...")

When building, yes. When judging, it makes my head hurt. This tends to make my scores lower unfairly and disputes increase, which makes my heard hurt more and thus we enter a vicious cycle :smalltongue:.

The Viscount

2013-04-11, 03:17 PM

Bribes for the judges: I accept cash, check, money order, wire, Western Union, Visa, MasterCard, baked goods, etc.[/LIST]
I knew I was forgetting something!

The one thing I can tell you is a crucial key to submitting better builds, though, is this: Proofread. It's amazing how many things we can catch and correct ourselves that truly do translate to better scores. Most importantly, have fun :smallcool:.

Ponies speaks the truth. Tacgnol was poorly proofread, and it ended up with me not correctly ascribing ability scores. Worse, I neglected to take LA into account when calculating skill levels.

nedz

2013-04-11, 04:37 PM

I made a couple of small errors with Hyandalindë.

Turns out though, even though I lost 1 full point, it would not have effected the ranking.:smallconfused:

These builds are complex and errors are likely, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Callin

2013-04-11, 06:46 PM

I actually do fairly simple builds with not too many dips. Maybe 2 at the most if I feel froggy. Other than that I like the KISS method.

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-11, 07:02 PM

I have a lot of guidelines, preferred styles and strict rules for when I cook. I've broken basically all of them at one point or another.

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-11, 07:16 PM

I have a lot of guidelines, preferred styles and strict rules for when I cook. I've broken basically all of them at one point or another.

I don't have any personal guidelines or rules when I build, save one.

#1 always take the conservative interpretation of a rule.

Other than that I just brainstorm for a few days and pick the one or two ideas that have developed into an interesting possible character. Then I usually work the kinks out in my head, procrastinate for a week and then force myself to write it down. BUT after missing last round due to my horrid procrastination, I am thinking of changing my process. I can't afford to miss this round. In spite of some unfortunate hiccups in the thread, I am in love with my entry. The world needs to see it.

Deadline

2013-04-11, 07:26 PM

*whew* Dish number one looks good, works, and tastes great to me. Need to polish the fluff and format the build into the tables. Should be ready to submit soon.

Lazers etcetera

2013-04-11, 07:43 PM

This will be my first entry, within a week of joining this forum and this is hard work.

I needed glasses of wine and good music (Atlantic soul, to keep me moving) to even handle sorting out the skill ranks.

Oh, good grief. My hat is off to those who can build on any chassis. I have had to go for more flavour and tricks than ultimate powaa.

And I am still scared that someone will have had the same idea as me.

Bollocks. Enjoys, everyone.

Kazyan

2013-04-11, 07:52 PM

Everyone does the "but what if they have the same idea?" vizzini. It hasn't actually happened with me yet, and yet I'm still concerned.

The Viscount

2013-04-11, 08:06 PM

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-11, 08:21 PM

Ahhhh... the ole' White text trick. It is an oldy but a goody.

nedz

2013-04-11, 09:20 PM

As long as you didn't go as a nope base with levels in nuh-uh and fluffed as not happening then we should have no problem.

Edit: IIRC, we vizzini'd ourselvesout of southern magician entirely in Geomancer.

And Drow in the last one — or was that just me ?
There were no drow in the Bladesinger IC !
I thought there would be lots.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-04-11, 09:55 PM

And Drow in the last one — or was that just me ?
There were no drow in the Bladesinger IC !
I thought there would be lots.

Well, true Drow have that near-crippling +2 LA attached to them, especially for something as... mediocre as Bladesinger.

I was kind of surprised at a lack of Lesser Drow, though.

FyreByrd

2013-04-12, 05:36 AM

Well, true Drow have that near-crippling +2 LA attached to them, especially for something as... mediocre as Bladesinger.

I was kind of surprised at a lack of Lesser Drow, though.

I was trying pretty hard to get a drow entry together for bladesinger (literally I looked at pretty much every possible way to be a drow...however crazy, and sub-optimal) In the end I just kept running up against the "hurr don't want to be drizzt," and "hurr everyone will go drow" and most importantly.."hurr I want to play a duskblade"

However this time...I've actually submitted...It's been a good while since I actually managed to put together a build for IC, and I'd forgotton what a PITA the skill ranks were...I'm actually quite pleased with my entry...it'll come last...but I like it! :smallredface:

Vaz

2013-04-12, 06:30 AM

No, I'll come last. I've made it twice, going for 3 in a row. There's got to be a medal for that somewhere.

*Worst Optimizer EVAR*

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-12, 07:24 AM

No, I'll come last. I've made it twice, going for 3 in a row. There's got to be a medal for that somewhere.

*Worst Optimizer EVAR*

I made it for you.

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u667/Garrett_Moon/VazTrophy_zps34c69cf6.jpg

Vaz

2013-04-12, 07:40 AM

There is so much yes right now.

mattie_p

2013-04-12, 07:40 AM

I made it for you.

You spelled "Teh" wrong. Please fix it.

nedz

2013-04-12, 07:45 AM

LOL — Nice, but surely a wooden spoon above a stinky bowl would be more in keeping.

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a640/NedzNedz/GitP/WoodenSpoon_zps3cd429e4.jpg

FyreByrd

2013-04-12, 07:49 AM

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u667/Garrett_Moon/VazTrophy_zps34c69cf6.jpg

Why do I want this...what's wrong with me!

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-12, 08:07 AM

teehee,

I made one for myself for my first place trophy from 2 rounds ago. It is in my siggy. I am so awesome at paint!

P.S. I got the procrastination under control. Build is done. Charts are done except I still got to fill in skills.

I still have to do level break down and some detail work

Still got to cite the sources

But I am over half way xD usually I wouldn't be this far til a few days b4 deadline xD

Lazers etcetera

2013-04-12, 08:31 AM

I made it for you.

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u667/Garrett_Moon/VazTrophy_zps34c69cf6.jpg

Chairman, make this official, please.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-04-12, 08:46 AM

The awkward moment when the linchpin of your dish falls down because for once WotC were excessively specific with the wording. :smallsigh:

nedz

2013-04-12, 09:50 AM

No, the worst moment is when you have all the skills worked out, and then you realise that a feat you took at level 3 has a skill point requirement you missed. :smallsigh:

Spreadsheets are golden.

Haluesen

2013-04-12, 01:13 PM

Wow that amazing trophy. :smallbiggrin: Someone needs to get that.

Well alright, if I understand the way everyone else seems to speak, then I got two dishes simmering. Just need to chart them, fluff them, then I'm good to go. :smallcool: Just gotta wait til I get home for that.
'
And thank you people for helping a newbie work out some ideas. May not be the most OP, but participating will help me get a feel for it.

OMG PONIES

2013-04-13, 07:57 AM

I actually do fairly simple builds with not too many dips. Maybe 2 at the most if I feel froggy. Other than that I like the KISS method.

Key in "Savage Species?"

Oh, good grief. My hat is off to those who can build on any chassis. I have had to go for more flavour and tricks than ultimate powaa.

This competition has seen gold medals go to a Truenamer and a Samurai, among others. Ultimate powaa isn't all it's cracked up to be sometimes.

No, the worst moment is when you have all the skills worked out, and then you realise that a feat you took at level 3 has a skill point requirement you missed. :smallsigh:

I don't know, I think Prometheus wins for "worst moment."

http://thanasis.com/modern/proCS.jpg

Vaz

2013-04-13, 10:59 AM

Being fair if we were going for Ultimate Power we wouldn't choose the SI.

And Ponies, KISS means Keep it stupid, simple.

Draz74

2013-04-13, 11:08 AM

I don't know, I think Prometheus wins for "worst moment."

http://thanasis.com/modern/proCS.jpg
Sisyphus might be even worse, eventually. Getting used to physical pain might be easier than getting used to repeated, pointless, forced failure.

And Ponies, KISS means Keep it stupid, simpleton.

FTFY. :smalltongue:

Callin

2013-04-13, 11:13 AM

Yall so funny...

OMG PONIES

2013-04-13, 12:11 PM

And Ponies, KISS means Keep it stupid, simple.

And here I thought the last two words were switched :smalltongue:.

Vaz

2013-04-13, 04:48 PM

Not in my playbook. Have you seen my scores :P.

Anyone else having trouble with feats? I have too many, and I don't know what do with it. Without the requisite feat(s) I have no theme, and general city dweller is hardly a well known theme.

nedz

2013-04-13, 05:40 PM

Shining Wrath

2013-04-13, 06:08 PM

Vaz

2013-04-13, 07:03 PM

I don't need the slot, i have like 4 to give away. Can't find much to go in them.

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-13, 07:08 PM

I don't need the slot, i have like 4 to give away. Can't find much to go in them.

No, didn't have that problem. I actually was overly ambitious on my brainstorming and had to drop 2 whole feat chains off of my build when I realized they wouldn't fit. But if anyone is just giving away their feats, I will take 8 free feats plaze.

P.S. why you no siggy tha trophy I made for you :smallfrown:
I work so hard on it. *Sad*

nedz

2013-04-13, 08:42 PM

I don't need the slot, i have like 4 to give away. Can't find much to go in them.

Sorry, misunderstood, I have one feat that could easily be dropped myself.

Just load up on Toughness, like 4 times. :smallbiggrin:

The Viscount

2013-04-14, 12:00 AM

WotC does it for their NPCs and monsters. It must be a viable idea!

Man, my progress is slow. Only done with BA, saves, and class features. Who'd have thought I'd be sad to see a skillful class. There's just so many flingin' flangin' points! Don't worry, you'll find too many good feats for those slots in due time.

BobVosh

2013-04-14, 02:12 AM

The awkward moment when the linchpin of your dish falls down because for once WotC were excessively specific with the wording. :smallsigh:
I bet they still didn't mean what they put in there, they were trying for something else.

Man these roman numerals are starting to get hard to read, are we really on 44? I haven't read one of these in 12 months?

Vaz

2013-04-14, 05:31 AM

No, didn't have that problem. I actually was overly ambitious on my brainstorming and had to drop 2 whole feat chains off of my build when I realized they wouldn't fit. But if anyone is just giving away their feats, I will take 8 free feats plaze.

P.S. why you no siggy tha trophy I made for you :smallfrown:
I work so hard on it. *Sad*

Im not worthy yet; if when I get 3 last places in a row. Going have to send up a feat chain, and leave an adaptation section indicating freely interchangeable feats.

nedz

2013-04-14, 06:08 AM

Hey, take my advice. Loading up on Toughness x4 would probably get you that trophy :smallcool:

OMG PONIES

2013-04-14, 09:14 PM

Hey, take my advice. Loading up on Toughness x4 would probably get you that trophy :smallcool:

Vaz, roll a Will save against Suggestion :smallbiggrin:. I've got to get cracking if I'm going to cook something up this round.

Vaz

2013-04-14, 09:57 PM

I rocking a high Wisdom this round, I'll be fine.

*Rolls Dice*

STOP GIVING MY BUILD AWAY.

8wGremlin

2013-04-16, 04:36 AM

A Souffle, now I hope it doesn't collapse when taken out of the oven...

Thurbane

2013-04-16, 04:48 AM

I've got the bare bones finished, now it's just a race against my spare time to see if I can get it all written up and formatted. :smalltongue:

Amphetryon

2013-04-16, 06:42 AM

A Souffle, now I hope it doesn't collapse when taken out of the oven...

Mine's looking more like a delicately glazed asphalt cake at this point.

Venger

2013-04-16, 09:45 AM

Mine's looking more like a delicately glazed asphalt cake at this point.

sounds great! (http://recipes.sparkpeople.com/recipe-detail.asp?recipe=903014)

Deadline

2013-04-16, 06:09 PM

Aaaaand sent. *phew* That dish gave me way more trouble than I was expecting, but I think the results are delicious and appealing.

mattie_p

2013-04-16, 06:19 PM

Chefs, I am going to have to bow out. I know I will not be able to complete on time, so I am publicly admitting my problem so I won't stress over it any longer. I'll post my quick sketch once the reveal takes place.

Shining Wrath

2013-04-16, 06:30 PM

The demon Real Life has smote me hip and thigh. No builds shall be cooked.

123456789blaaa

2013-04-16, 10:36 PM

I've been rereading some of the old IC contests and noticed that in the Cancer Mage contest Akal says:

And every odd round the cancer familiar will also be delivering a 12d8+10 negative energy touch attack with most of the same things applied to it, while every even round the cancer familiar will be healing the main character for 12d8+10 as a swift action on its part, keeping the monk skirmishing all day long

The cancer familiar can only use a spell or spell-like ability of the cancer mages. Touch of the Shadow Sun is a (Su) ability. How is the cancer familar doing this?

Also while I was rereading the old IC contests I also noticed something else-BooNL revealed himself before the reveal! In the Psibond Agent contest BooNL submitted Lirea. He also made her name a link to her character sheet at the top of his post. However, if you look at the "Player" section you can very clearly see his name :smalltongue:.

EDIT:

The demon Real Life has smote me hip and thigh. No builds shall be cooked.

Do you have an outline you'll post after the reveal or is it a blank slate?

The Viscount

2013-04-17, 01:15 AM

Why did I have to come up with a character concept this late into the competition? Well, first things first; finish what's on the stove now.

Vaz

2013-04-17, 04:39 AM

Right, found somewhere to use them feats usefully, so I'm well and good, but a little toughnessless. Think I might have gone a bit overboard though.

Deadline

2013-04-17, 09:39 AM

Well, try as I might, I just can't work my second dish into anything other than an entertaining sounding failure. I'll post the build stub after the reveal, but it was mostly for the Lulz, anyway.

Draz74

2013-04-17, 11:29 AM

Right, found somewhere to use them feats usefully, so I'm well and good, but a little toughnessless. Think I might have gone a bit overboard though.

Hey! Quit breaking contest rules! Now all the judges will be able to tell which entry is yours, since it will be the one without 4+ Toughness feats! :smallmad:

Haluesen

2013-04-17, 11:37 AM

Hehe running out of time! I should be able to have at least one of these done in time..if the other dish isn't then I'll post it much later and see what people think about it. Help me improve. :smallbiggrin:

Wait...someone did this without using Toughness? :smallconfused: I thought that feat was just about required for everyone. :smallcool:

The Viscount

2013-04-17, 11:40 AM

Hey! Quit breaking contest rules! Now all the judges will be able to tell which entry is yours, since it will be the one without 4+ Toughness feats! :smallmad:

Wouldn't it be hilarious if everybody else really did have toughness?

Draz74

2013-04-17, 11:45 AM

Wouldn't it be hilarious if everybody else really did have toughness?

Speculating about others' possible build choices! Now whoever was planning on taking Toughness is going to feel obligated to change their build just to stay Original in the face of this speculation! :smallfurious: I swear, doesn't anyone respect the integrity of this contest's rules anymore? :smallmad:

:smalltongue:

Vaz

2013-04-17, 11:46 AM

No, everyone change your feats, I want Gotterdammerungs awesome trophy but I cannot claim it without losong 3 in a row! I don't want your originality points!

Amechra

2013-04-17, 12:14 PM

Must... Resist... Urge... To... Enter... Build... Specifically... Designed... To... LOSE!

Venger

2013-04-17, 12:28 PM

Must... Resist... Urge... To... Enter... Build... Specifically... Designed... To... LOSE!

Guys...

Are we witnessing the birth of a new side contest?

the Kitchen Nightmares (Un)Optimization challenge in the Playground?

Piggy Knowles

2013-04-17, 12:29 PM

Must... Resist... Urge... To... Enter... Build... Specifically... Designed... To... LOSE!

I've had a couple of times where I've been tempted to shoot the moon and enter a plausible, well-written entry - with the intent of getting the lowest score possible. I even set up rules for myself... The entry would have to be indistinguishable from a real entry, couldn't intentionally take illegal elements to tank its score, etc.

Amechra

2013-04-17, 12:55 PM

Well, I did have that build I was going to enter in the Renegade Masterworker contest where I used the capstone to let me enter Reforged, this removing pretty much the entire benefit for taking the secret ingredient.

Vaz

2013-04-17, 02:09 PM

I'd love to see a Planar Shepherd Iron Chef. Optimize, but without all being Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 choosing 10:1 planar bubbles.

Draz74

2013-04-17, 02:29 PM

I'd love to see a Planar Shepherd Iron Chef. Optimize, but without all being Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 choosing 10:1 planar bubbles.

I seem to recall there being one other Planar Bubble that was almost as broken as 10:1 time traits. Something about wildshaping into an Efreet and gaining its Wish SLAs, or something like that.

The Viscount

2013-04-17, 04:28 PM

I feel like planar shepherd would be filled with nothing but horrendous cheese. If we're making suggestions, I once again must place my vote for gnome giant slayer. It's so bad it must be fun.

Amechra

2013-04-17, 04:31 PM

Here's the plan:

Optimize Planar Shepherd. There is a restriction, though:

It must be at least as weak as a Fighter of equal level.

mattie_p

2013-04-17, 04:39 PM

Here's the plan:

Optimize Planar Shepherd. There is a restriction, though:

It must be at least as weak as a Fighter of equal level.

Sounds like a challenge for Zinc Saucier then! (Pro-tip, Dervish competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280212) now open).

Shining Wrath

2013-04-17, 04:42 PM

Guys...

Are we witnessing the birth of a new side contest?

the Kitchen Nightmares (Un)Optimization challenge in the Playground?

We'd have to constrain it somehow. Maximum number of classes taken and at least one ability score must be 16, et cetera.

Vaz

2013-04-17, 04:56 PM

I feel like planar shepherd would be filled with nothing but horrendous cheese.

Exactly. But most of it is KNOWN cheese.

Originality; entry methods are difficult, but the class has a huge variety of options open to it. What do you do with it? Tried and tested Fire Plane/Realm of Dreams, or the Beastlands, say, and get a unique entry that way? And if yours is a unique entry, has anybody else had the same idea? You also have 5 other levels with which you can use to progress. How do you use them?

Power; Can't really argue with an Efreet or Realm of Dreams abuse. Can you beat that power? If so, awesome. On the other hand, does choosing a unique plane lower your power over much? How do those other 5 levels match?

Elegance; how well does it flow together? Most will either do a 5/10/5, 5/5/10 or 10/10 progression; but does it come across well or jarring in the fluff.

UoSI; well, considering it's two main capstones, fairly well, I'd imagine. But what about the Manifest Zones? And the class skills? etc.

Haluesen

2013-04-18, 12:09 PM

:smalleek: Man do I feel so out of it. I don't know even know what the Planar Shepard is, much less how it is used and what is apparently so broken about it.

Not sure if I will be able to get both dishes ready in time..oh well, one is better than nothing.

mattie_p

2013-04-18, 12:34 PM

Haluesen

2013-04-18, 01:41 PM

Hmm so it improves a druid's 3 best class features and gets other things? No wonder people like it. :smallbiggrin: I wanna try it sometime now.

Overlord Rion

2013-04-18, 01:49 PM

Crap, this was going already? I feel dumb for letting it slip by before. I wanted to judge and everything.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-04-18, 01:52 PM

You can still judge if you want, I mean the builds haven't been revealed yet and you don't have to sign up or anything, just post your judging after reviewing the builds (though posting a rubrik is a good idea).

Deadline

2013-04-18, 03:31 PM

Huh, just when I thought I was finished with entries this time around, I found a way to make one of my initial ideas actually work. And the fluff practically wrote itself. So yeah, second entry submitted.

@Overlord Rion
By all means, please give judging a try this time around. It's always good to have a variety of judges!

The Viscount

2013-04-19, 12:05 AM

First build in! Now to work on the second. Crunch time. Good luck to all who are finishing up.

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-19, 12:35 AM

I still have to fill in skills, items, finish half of the lvl by lvl breakdown, then finish the sources, and a few finishing touches. It feels like a lot when I say it out loud :smallsigh: 75% through I would say.

OMG PONIES

2013-04-19, 08:35 AM

Don't think I've got time for my build, so I may judge.

Vaz

2013-04-19, 09:15 AM

No, submit a build! Without you, my build might look better than it actually is!

Callin

2013-04-19, 09:17 AM

Vaz you dont need Ponies for that... I did submit a build ya know :smallwink:

Overlord Rion

2013-04-19, 09:19 AM

Aight, looks like I'll judge. I actually have some experience with working with an Urban Soul.

Vaz

2013-04-19, 09:54 AM

Woohoo! More judges!

@Callin. What are you suggesting, that I'm bad at optimizing? :smallmad:

Callin

2013-04-19, 09:57 AM

Woohoo! More judges!

@Callin. What are you suggesting, that I'm bad at optimizing? :smallmad:

No I was saying im fighting you for last place :smallbiggrin:

Overlord Rion

2013-04-19, 03:09 PM

Aww come on guys, there's enough room in last place for the both of you.

Thurbane

2013-04-19, 10:17 PM

Got a 40th tonight, and the formatting is kicking my butt, so I doubt I'll get my entry in. I'll post the concept after the reveal.

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-19, 10:54 PM

I only have SKILLS LEFT!!!!! I haven't worked this hard on a build in a while. I am a big fan of Urban soul :smallsmile: Wanted to do it justice!

P.S. What is a 40th? (besides a number)

Thurbane

2013-04-19, 11:04 PM

40th birthday :smallwink:

Venger

2013-04-19, 11:11 PM

I only have SKILLS LEFT!!!!! I haven't worked this hard on a build in a while. I am a big fan of Urban soul :smallsmile: Wanted to do it justice!

P.S. What is a 40th? (besides a number)

congrats. I had to go back and fix my skills. I made a typo and the ripples made me have to redo everything.

he's talking about either an anniversary or a birthday. I seem to recall you celebrating your 40th back in mindbender, thurbane. so it'd be someone else's 40th birthday/anniversary. shame we won't see your entry, I don't remember seeing you cook in a while. I wonder what you've thought up.

Gotterdammerung

2013-04-20, 12:26 AM

congrats. I had to go back and fix my skills. I made a typo and the ripples made me have to redo everything.

Oooh I hate when that happens >< Couple of contests ago my whole chart got wonky'd and I had to start over =/ *condolences*
:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:
!Mr. Chairmen Kuulvheysoon!
:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:
I have submitted my entry! Please let me know when you get them, thanks. Can't wait for the reveal. This gon be good.

dysprosium

2013-04-20, 07:53 AM

Hooray! I got my entry submitted!

Good Luck everyone!

Vaz

2013-04-20, 09:20 AM

I have a mates leaving do while he emigrates to. australia tonight. I finish work at modnight and will then be meeting up afterwards.

im more excited for the reveal with this one.

Nice priorities, Vaz.

Amphetryon

2013-04-20, 10:31 AM

And submitted.

Good luck, all. This one could be. . . interesting.