Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVI

[Kuulvheysoon]

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLVI. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Sunday, June 22th, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, July 6th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Planar Handbook’s Cipher Adept!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)

[Kuulvheysoon]

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15415215#post15415215)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Does Alignment: Neutral mean... It means True Neutral.

[Amphetryon]

Oh, wow. Definitely in.

[thethird]

Oh dear... :smalleek: And I thought that the Talon was hard... One question though since the alignment doesn't say any neutral I assume it is True Neutral isn't it?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Oh dear... :smalleek: And I thought that the Talon was hard... One question though since the alignment doesn't say any neutral I assume it is True Neutral isn't it?

Oh yeah. True Neutral it is, friend.

And it is supposed to be a Challenge, isn't it?:smallwink:

[Kazyan]

This ingredient peeves me.

[The Viscount]

You... I... What is this thing?!
I don't think I'll be able to enter this round.

On a side note, that art.

[mattie_p]

I might have something to work with. We will see.

[GreenSerpent]

I actually have an idea! It might be a bit tricky to work with.

Though now I'm going to need a bowl of frozen yoghurt, a blueberry muffin, a plastic bag, my collie dog and quite a lot of anime as part of the character creation process.

[nobodez]

Well, I'm away from book right now, so I'll have to check whether I think I can do one, but considering I did better than halfway on the previous round, I likely will shoot for this one too.

[Draz74]

Wow ... haha ... I'm powerfully tempted to take a shot at this round, purely out of masochism.

[Kreuz]

I am willing to give it a try...

Also, hi.

[Venger]

this class is horrifyingly bad. I've never even heard of it before. it's somehow like a more underwhelming version of initiate of the draconic mysteries.

tentatively in to cook.

[Amphetryon]

I am willing to give it a try...

Also, hi.

Oh, look! A new victim, I mean, Chef, is showing up!

Welcome. :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

I think that's the best skill list I've ever seen on a class that only gets 2 + INT skills.

And yeah, wow is this underwhelming. I can honestly say I think I'd rather be a straight Monk.

[Kazyan]

It's like they took all of the bad parts of the Monk and made it into a PrC. Just ew.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Y'all can thank Piggy for this one - I didn't even know that it existed until he pointed it out as a suggestion a couple of contests ago.

[zlefin]

Never heard of that prc, i'm almost tempted to try finding it online just to see how bad it is from the descriptions. In vague terms, are there any real prospects for optimizing it, or is it just plain terrible?

[Amidus Drexel]

Never heard of that prc, i'm almost tempted to try finding it online just to see how bad it is from the descriptions. In vague terms, are there any real prospects for optimizing it, or is it just plain terrible?

It is quite literally as bad as they say it is, but the skill list is pretty nice.

[mattie_p]

This really should have been a Zinc Saucier secret ingredient. I'm jealous that you got to it first.

[Steven]

So I have no ability to cook to the level this requires but.. Am I reading it correctly that since this lists 'neutral' Monks are out of the question since they require lawful?

[Amidus Drexel]

This really should have been a Zinc Saucier secret ingredient. I'm jealous that you got to it first.

You could just take Monk 20 and then change your alignment. :smallamused:


So I have no ability to cook to the level this requires but.. Am I reading it correctly that since this lists 'neutral' Monks are out of the question since they require lawful?

You could probably still do it, but the judges might dock you for elegance. Monks don't lose any class abilities by changing alignment, they just can't advance any further.

[Kuulvheysoon]

So I have no ability to cook to the level this requires but.. Am I reading it correctly that since this lists 'neutral' Monks are out of the question since they require lawful?

Unless you're an ex-monk, yes.

[mattie_p]

So I have no ability to cook to the level this requires but.. Am I reading it correctly that since this lists 'neutral' Monks are out of the question since they require lawful?

Without going into specifics, judges in the past have looked askance at alignment changes. Alignment changes exist in the rules, but may be penalized for elegance at the judges discretion. I will say no more, as even this might be pushing it.


Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

[Steven]

Ah, my apologies. I'm trying my hand at building characters, not to submit just to see what I come up with, and wasn't sure if 'Neutral' meant any neutral or true neutral.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ah, my apologies. I'm trying my hand at building characters, not to submit just to see what I come up with, and wasn't sure if 'Neutral' meant any neutral or true neutral.

You're not the first to ask - I'll make a mention in the FAQ.

[Failed Phantasm]

The first Iron Chef that I have enough time to actually participate in, and this is the special ingredient? Hoo boy. I'll give it a shot and pray the judges are lenient this round.

[Draz74]

This really should have been a Zinc Saucier secret ingredient. I'm jealous that you got to it first.


You could just take Monk 20 and then change your alignment. :smallamused:
QFT.


The first Iron Chef that I have enough time to actually participate in, and this is the special ingredient? Hoo boy. I'll give it a shot and pray the judges are lenient this round.

Consider the one upside to this ingredient: all of your competitors' builds will suck, too! :smallbiggrin:

[Kevingway]

All I can come up with is stuff for creativity. And besides that, the alignment requirements are putting a wrench in every plan I have laid out... hm. It's rough!

[123456789blaaa]

So why'd you pick this PRC to be the SI?

[A_S]

It's...so...bad.

I'll try to judge this time. Hopefully life won't get in the way like it did last time I intended to.

[Arundel]

You know, I was thinking about putting in a build for this one. I really was. Then I read the entry. If you all will be so kind as to excuse me, I unfortunately have to go scour my eyes with sandpaper to get this travesty of a class out of my mind. I can't decide if my favorite part was that this is a class for sorcerers or the art. I'm gonna have to find a special place of rage and self loathing to make a build for this.

[Madara]

Was this on DnD wiki first? :smallannoyed:

[MilesTiden]

Hmm... This looks like somewhat of a challenge. Why not, I'll go for it. :smalltongue:

[thethird]

Okay after sleeping at it I put my first maddened idea in the back burner, just in case, throw my second idea which was crazy as **** out of the window and settled to investigate the third one which might work.

If no... maybe I'll go full retard all the way down.

[Vaz]

I like Planar Handbook Prestige Classes a lot.

I have 4 of them on my favourite PrC list I had up on the last challenge; here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15363967&postcount=514), if anyone's interested.

Let's just say this wasn't one of them for a reason.

[thethird]

Yep idea did not work, going full retard.

[Kazyan]

I have a silly way to use some of the SI, but the leftovers are tripping me up. Grr.

[Dumbledore lives]

Look at class, look at first ability and skill list kind of glancing over the rest, potential is had. Then read the rest of the class, actual skill points, and requirements. At least the art is a good indicator of the quality.

[Thurbane]

Interesting choice, very interesting.

I'll have a lot more spare time leading up to this deadline than the last, so I might see if I can put something together. Have to say though, nothing leaps out at me for a build at first glance.

[Piggy Knowles]

Y'all can thank Piggy for this one - I didn't even know that it existed until he pointed it out as a suggestion a couple of contests ago.

Oof... sorry, everyone. To be fair, I do think it is an interesting ingredient, in a similar way to how a train wreck might be interesting to some.

I'll poke around and see if I can make something useful out of this, but if not, I'll throw in my hat to judge. In case I do, here's my criteria. (I've clarified a few things since Urban Soul.)

My judging criteria:

In each category, I'm adding what I consider a "baseline build" - a build that, by my rubric, should get a 3.

Originality


Let me preface this section by saying that I don't think originality is wholly contingent upon choice of class. Two builds can have the exact same class levels, and yet end up going in completely different directions. Choice of class matters somewhat, but I'm more interested in what your build actually does.

I also will not penalize you just because someone else has chosen the same class as you. If you submit something that I find unexpected, I'll score it high even if the next person has the exact same build. But if you submit an entry that I consider standard or expected, don't expect a lot of points even if no one else went that direction.

So what will gain you points? Use the abilities you have in fresh and interesting ways. Surprise me. Show me new combinations that I've never seen before. Meanwhile, using well-known builds will cause you to lose points.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that steers clear of known cheese and standard build elements, but doesn't necessarily make me sit up and go "wow." Builds that involve new combinations or focus on unexpected elements will score higher here, while builds that utilize known cheese or that are pretty much stock builds will score lower.


Power


There are two questions that will define how I rate a build's power. They are...

(1) How good is your build at its intended role?
(2) Will you stay relevant if your main "trick" does not work?

I don't expect every build to have 9th-level casting or manifesting, or to be able to bring the universe to its knees. However, if your build has a specific role or function, I expect you to be at least adequate at it. And if your build is a one-trick pony, it had better be a pretty good trick. I will deduct points if you can't function outside of a very limited set of parameters.

I'll also be looking for obvious ways your build could be improved (other than the most obvious "take fewer levels of the Secret Ingredient"). There's nothing wrong with sacrificing a little power for flavor, but if a choice makes you worse at your role, I will penalize for it. Just hope you make up the points in elegance or originality, I guess...

Finally, I don't plan to grade on a curve. Even if this is a weak ingredient, don't expect full points in Power if you've managed to just barely become adequate. Everyone's got the same ingredient to work with, after all.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that can meaningfully contribute to a party in most CR-appropriate encounters. Builds that can't, either because their overall power is too low or because they only function in very specific situations, will score lower here. Builds that are particularly proficient or useful, or that can meaningfully contribute even in over-CR'd encounters, will score higher.


Elegance


Obscurity or using multitude of sources doesn't bother me, but for the love of Pelor, please cite your work! I am very familiar with the system, but I like to have the books in front of me when I'm reviewing a build. I also don't like too much mixing of setting-specific material. (Note that just because a class or feat appears in a setting book doesn't mean that I will consider it setting-specific; I'm referring to things like regional feats, feats and classes that involve certain setting-specific orders, etc.)

Now that that's out of the way... I don't mind dips, as long as they are reasonable and make sense. However, I will not ignore the "fluff" requirements of a class. If a prestige class requires you to be a member of the Wizards of the Unseen University and your build glosses over that requirement, expect to see a small deduction.

In any case, while I won't penalize for dips, I do like nice clean builds, where everything works in harmony, so you can pick up extra points that way. I will also give out small bonuses here if everything is written up cleanly, in an engaging manner. Nothing huge - the build is most important. But presentation DOES matter, and if you do a good job with it, I think you should be rewarded. I don't need three pages of backstory, but I do like to see more than a list of abilities.

I'm mildly cheese-tolerant - I don't mind characters being effective or using abilities in new and exciting ways, as long as the rules do indeed back you up. But this should be something you are willing to sit down with other human beings and actually play, so keep the Vieux Boulougne at home. Also, this should go without saying, but if a build element is illegal (failing to qualify for a feat/PrC, for instance), I will deduct for it.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that you can pick up and walk over to almost any table, and it won't raise any eyebrows. Builds that are DM-dependent or questionable rules-wise will score lower here, as will builds that are clunky and messy. Builds that are a thing of beauty will score higher here - ones that make even the stuffiest DM sit up and say, hey, that's awesome, I'd love to have you in our group.


Use of Secret Ingredient


This one's pretty simple. Do you use the secret ingredient's abilities to good effect, or are they more of a footnote? Is there another class that could have done a better job at what you are trying to do? Your goal here is to highlight the secret ingredient, not to mask it. You will gain points by taking advantage of all the abilities provided, by using them in effective ways (an ability that would have been cool at level 6 won't score points with me if you don't pick it up until level 12), and by demonstrating how the SI brings your build together. You will lose points by dropping too many levels, failing to take advantage of the class's core abilities and pre-requisites, etc. You will automatically get minimum points here if you don't actually qualify for the PrC, so double-check those skill points!

BASELINE BUILD: A build that manages to use the secret ingredient without crying out to me, "HEY, this is only here because of a stupid contest, OK!" (I know, it might be hard with this one :smalltongue:) Builds that utilize all of the SI's abilities to good effect, and who really sell the idea that only the SI would have worked here, will score higher. Builds that don't really get any use out of the class features or pre-reqs, or that would really obviously just do better with another option, will score lower.



EDIT: Hang on, I just got a totally ridiculous idea that might actually work. I'll think on it while I'm at work, but if it does, then I'll throw my hat in as a competitor.

[Korahir]

all i can think of is incredibad. let's see if i can find something worthwhile.

[dysprosium]

This ingredient makes me . . . cry a little inside.

I'm in.

[Deadline]

Wow ... just wow. I mean, I adore the planar handbook and its many underpowered races and PrCs. But this one is just ... awful. I feel compelled to cook.

However, if none of my ideas feel right, I'll judge (I don't want to go more than four comps in a row without judging at least once). I'll let you know shortly.

[Haluesen]

This is one of those rare times when even I can tell the class is terrible. :smalleek: Nonetheless I will take this as the challenge it truly is! I am most than likely in. I will try at least. :smallsmile:

Funny enough I was gonna ask the alignment question too. Glad that was worked out.

[Kreuz]

I think... I have an idea...

[yugi24862]

This is almost as lacking in class features than shining blade of Heironeous. I dont think I can do anything with this.

[The Viscount]

I have a rather bizarre idea. We'll see if I have the time to submit it.

[thethird]

Why do people feel compelled to cook? This doesn't have juice at all. Can we comment on the SI or would that be speculation? Because I might complain quite a lot about those class features...

Only three are "unique", one enhances subpar tactics, another relies on subpar tactics and the capstone... don't ask me the opinion on the capstone...

[nobodez]

This is not an IC ingredient, it's a ZS ingredient.

Actually, it's not even that. This is replaced by a Swordsage taking two, possibly three, maneuvers.

I'm out. I'll enjoy watching, but I'm not cooking.

[The Viscount]

Why do people feel compelled to cook?

We're all mad here.

[Haluesen]

Why do people feel compelled to cook?

Well Viscount is correct, but for me personally I have already stated that I want to be a long running member of all this. I have a lot of respect for many of the skilled optimizers here and yet I want to try to be as skilled at this as them. And it just makes sense that I need to try to cope with at least one absolutely horrible SI if I want to show that I'm committed to this idea.

That said, if I honestly can't come up with anything at all for this then I will back out. I have less hope here than with the last 2 but I have to at least try.

[Deadline]

Why do people feel compelled to cook?

Because the existence of this SI is so bad, it leaves a black mark of wrongness upon the universe. This terrible wrong must be righted and we, the Iron Chefs, are the vanguard of the defensive line.

That, and apparently I'm a terrible masochist.

[Vaz]

It is like crack cocaine. It becomes addictive in the mad genius way. If you get something wrong on the last one, you want to correct that mistake. I also know i love the book diving nature. Particularly with things like this one as I then tend to google around looking for particular options, such as optimizing subpar combat choices and how to get the most out of it (like Intimidation, overrun, etc). You find all sorts of random throwaway comments that lead you down odd paths or alternatives, like interesting combat tricks that are more than choose X book or take power attack chain.

I know I personally am not particularly erudite or elegant with regards to backstory or tying together the fluff into an accessible package but that I am reasonably capable of getting decent power scores and original combinations, yet still struggle to showcase off the SI. The nearest I came to that was in Urban soul (my favourite to date), and even then i made stupid mistakes that I learned from. I really enjoyed making Spyro and Doc D'Oc and the comments showed that while I had leanred from the mistakes of the previous rounds, I had others
to learn from. While i don't pretend to be a good chef (I am more of a Lads BBQ kinda guy, put the biggest burger with the hottest sauce and who cares if its not michelin star), I do like learning the techniques.

[dysprosium]

Why do people feel compelled to cook?

Maybe there will be less entries (and more judges?) . . .

Even the Japanese Iron Chef had three judges (and then four at the end of their run)

But to reiterate what others have said already:

We can't help it! This is an enjoyable experience (mostly). We learn different techniques that make our character creations outside of IC.

[thethird]

:smallredface:

I have to really check myself for sanity... I already finished a build. I feel dirty. I need to take a shower. There is something wrong with me.

[Draz74]

Yeah, on reflection, I'm leaning towards judging this round.

But we'll see if I even get as far as writing up Criteria. Finals week and all that.

[OMG PONIES]

Hot dog! There's a lot of animosity directed at this ingredient. Instead of being sauer, I relish the challenge. It could just be because I'm playing catch-up (or maybe because I've always been a bit of a weenie).

As an amusing sidenote, the sample character's gear renders its evasion (and Improved Evasion) useless.


The evasion ability can be used only if the cipher is wearing light armor or no armor.


Possessions: +2 breastplate

[Immabozo]

My idea is so good, it should be illegal. Count me in for me first IC competition.

[Failed Phantasm]

Are we going to have more judges than chefs this round? :smalltongue:

I've got a build I'm working on, but it's so insane I don't think I'll score higher than an 8 with it (5 + 1 + 1 + 1), especially since this is my first attempt and I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. I'll enter it anyway if only to see how it's scored, but man, is it hard to make a build that doesn't overshadow the special ingredient. It's like Initiate of Pistis Sophia all over again. I wonder if the chairman will be laughing very hard as the entries come into his inbox.

[3WhiteFox3]

I cannot for the life of me get any good ideas for this SI, unless I suddenly get an idea that's workable I'm leaning towards judging. I'll try to get criteria up ASAP.

[The Viscount]

It's like Initiate of Pistis Sophia all over again. I wonder if the chairman will be laughing very hard as the entries come into his inbox.

Hey, at least you can qualify for this class in more than 2 ways. I'm pretty sure the chairman is already laughing.

[Piggy Knowles]

Anyone got some extra feats they can spare from their builds? If so, slide them on this way. I need, like, three more to make this build actually functional...

[thethird]

I can spare a couple :smallredface:

[Korahir]

third build idea thrown away. always the same problem: why on earth wouldn't you level just [retracted]? This SI is very hard to be classified as even close to useful ;)

[mattie_p]

Piggy, you'll have to share with me, I need two more feats as well.

[thethird]

I should stop working on my full retard build and go for a serious one...

[Deadline]

Well, I've exhausted nearly every source book available to me, and I'm coming up pretty dry. I've got an idea stuck in my head, but it's pretty stupid. I'm going to sleep on it and see if I get the case of coyote ugly that I think I should be getting for this idea.

[zlefin]

Oh darn, I thought of a sensible use for the class, I suppose that obligates me to write something up.

[Emperor Tippy]

God this thing sucks.

So X 7/Crappy class 10/X 3.

Pity that Factotum can't be made to work off Wis or that this can't be made to work off Int.

Anyways, I think I have a possible idea.

It won't be amazingly powerful but it might be useful; although just dropping the SI would up the power level by at least a tier.

[OMG PONIES]

My idea is so good, it should be illegal. Count me in for me first IC competition.

You have no idea how much this prods the cynic in me to judge. At the same time, it prods the gamer in me to get really excited.


Are we going to have more judges than chefs this round? :smalltongue:

I've got a build I'm working on, but it's so insane I don't think I'll score higher than an 8 with it (5 + 1 + 1 + 1), especially since this is my first attempt and I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. I'll enter it anyway if only to see how it's scored, but man, is it hard to make a build that doesn't overshadow the special ingredient.

I encourage anything that gets a 5 in Originality. If nothing else, you have a hope to snag the "Never Saw it Coming" Honorable Mention. As for the last part, that's generally a good indication that the Chairman has picked a stinker winner.


Anyone got some extra feats they can spare from their builds? If so, slide them on this way. I need, like, three more to make this build actually functional...

Sorry, I've already stocked up on Toughness x4 for roleplay reasons.


I should stop working on my full retard build and go for a serious one...

As the son of a special ed teacher, can I please ask that we stop using that word so flippantly? I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it really rubs me the wrong way. Thanks for understanding! :smallbiggrin:

[Kreuz]

This shows how little experience I have compared to the others... my first reaction was "oh, that's interesting".

[Immabozo]

[QUOTE=OMG PONIES;15407305]You have no idea how much this prods the cynic in me to judge. At the same time, it prods the gamer in me to get really excited.

I love critisism of my builds, makes me a better builder. But I think I'll win point for originality and, oddly enough, power, at least. I'd actually play my build, but then again, I'm an odd one.

[The Viscount]

Anyone got some extra feats they can spare from their builds? If so, slide them on this way. I need, like, three more to make this build actually functional...

I know that feeling quite well. Surely you can't be doing what I'm doing, though.:smalleek: ...Could you?

[thethird]

As the son of a special ed teacher, can I please ask that we stop using that word so flippantly? I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it really rubs me the wrong way. Thanks for understanding! :smallbiggrin:

:smallredface:

Sorry.

Let's call it my stupidly stupid build... The problem with it is that if someone as a player approached me and said I want to play this I would look at the build, raise an eyebrow, and say... no, just no. And it's not that the SI is detrimental to it, it is relatively good but there are better ways of building it...

That's why I should stop building it.

[Haluesen]

Geez, I am seeing a lot of good flavor for this class roleplay wise but little to justify taking it. I see only one good unique ability and maybe a little bit in other. Even those 3 skills have seemingly no connection. Still I push on. I only mention this because I can't believe people here actually have build ideas right now, much less anything near complete.

[Darkcouch]

I've got an idea right off from a quick scan of the skills and I think I have a decent meal in the works.

[Emperor Tippy]

What's the normal penalty for Chaos Shuffling feats (not picking up excess from VoP, locations, etc.; just moving around feats in the build)?

My build fits the feel, fluff, and theme of the Cipher Adept but honestly its abilities do **** all for my build.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Are we going to have more judges than chefs this round? :smalltongue:
[cut]
It's like Initiate of Pistis Sophia all over again. I wonder if the chairman will be laughing very hard as the entries come into his inbox.

Trust me - it's not possible to have too many judges. Judges are worth their weight in obdurium. And it's been a while since we've had a monk PrC, so I figured why not have a fake-monk Prc?


Hey, at least you can qualify for this class in more than 2 ways. I'm pretty sure the chairman is already laughing.

You guys have no idea how much the first two pages of this and Bladesinger make me laugh.


As for the last part, that's generally a good indication that the Chairman has picked a stinker winner.

Why do you think I volunteered to Chair? I lose out on competing, but I've got a trove of horrendousawesome classes for you guys.


What's the normal penalty for Chaos Shuffling feats (not picking up excess from VoP, locations, etc.; just moving around feats in the build)?

My build fits the feel, fluff, and theme of the Cipher Adept but honestly its abilities do **** all for my build.

It all depends on the specific judge. Some could slam you for it, and others might be merely disappointed and give you a slap on the wrist.

[Emperor Tippy]

It all depends on the specific judge. Some could slam you for it, and others might be merely disappointed and give you a slap on the wrist.

Why would they do either though? It's not like you're picking up extra feats.

[mattie_p]

Why would they do either though? It's not like you're picking up extra feats.

Well, now that they know it would be you....

[Vaz]

With regards to Chaos Shuffling, you like to take a hit in;
Originality; it is known cheese, and quite a smelly ones too
Power; if you lack the power to do so under your own steam then that will be a hit. (no, chain gating wish invocation shapechange zodaring doesn't count). If you are item dependent for that trick then that is another hit. If you can do it under your own ability, you have to wait until late on to get the ability to do so.
Elegance; very ugly with rearranging it, large hits for it here
UOSI; it seems like the actual SI ingredients are completely irrelevent. This is likely a candidate for a 1.

Without including it in an adaptations and having it as an extra section to include as optional inclusion you are looking at possibly averaging out with a score of possibly 6-9 out of 20.

If you've got the flavour and abilities recreated however it sounds more like Zinc Saucier

[Immabozo]

Well, now that they know it would be you....

no they dont, its supposed to be anonymous

[mattie_p]

no they dont, its supposed to be anonymous

Look, it may not have his name on it, but anything that appears in IC that goes "I have a craft contingent psychic reformation ; I get a candle / thought bottle ; I shapechange into a zodar/elemental weird/zodar ; I chaos shuffle 18 racial feats ; etc " isn't going to be anonymous. Just saying.

[Emperor Tippy]

With regards to Chaos Shuffling, you like to take a hit in;
Originality; it is known cheese, and quite a smelly ones too
I developed it first. So shouldn't I get points for that? And it's really not bad cheese or even moderately hazy cheese. It's a good use of a feature that makes builds more interesting and useful.


Power; if you lack the power to do so under your own steam then that will be a hit. (no, chain gating wish invocation shapechange zodaring doesn't count). If you are item dependent for that trick then that is another hit. If you can do it under your own ability, you have to wait until late on to get the ability to do so.
UMD and WBL are expected parts of class power. That you choose to use them should not count against your builds power. Honestly, power should be judged solely based on final product and its ability to deliver. This one should be wholly independent of how such is achieved.


Elegance; very ugly with rearranging it, large hits for it here
Why? It's far more elegant to rewrite your feats to get the most benefit from them and have them all relevant. The criteria is "whether you sacrificed flavor for power". The Chaos Shuffle can enhance both the flavor and power. I mean there are plenty of pointless bonus feats that do nothing and they can be made into feats that fit with the build and make it both more flavorful and better.


UOSI; it seems like the actual SI ingredients are completely irrelevent. This is likely a candidate for a 1.
There is no build that will make these SI ingredients *relevant*. It's only real class abilities are a slightly better Sunder, the ability to free action disarm/sunder on a crit, and a few rounds per day of being Etheral.

The requirement is to use the SI, if your build has all 10 levels of it then you should get a '5' in that category; you can't get more "exemplary" than that.


Without including it in an adaptations and having it as an extra section to include as optional inclusion you are looking at possibly averaging out with a score of possibly 6-9 out of 20.

If you've got the flavour and abilities recreated however it sounds more like Zinc Saucier
And I remember why I tend to avoid these things. Horribly bad judging and criteria that are so broad and hazy that the guidelines are virtually worthless.


Look, it may not have his name on it, but anything that appears in IC that goes "I have a craft contingent psychic reformation ; I get a candle / thought bottle ; I shapechange into a zodar/elemental weird/zodar ; I chaos shuffle 18 racial feats ; etc " isn't going to be anonymous. Just saying.
None of that. I would just buy the scrolls, far less cheesy than Wish/Shapechange abuse.

I actually haven't decided race yet but my build currently has at least two utterly worthless and pointless feats.

---
Bah, I probably just won't enter it and will post it after the contest closes.

[Amphetryon]

Why would they do either though? It's not like you're picking up extra feats.

Dark Chaos Shuffle is Known Cheese that generally indicates that the Feats gained from, for example, the Secret Ingredient aren't the ones you're interested in/able to use effectively. The nature of this particular contest would indicate that approach will not score well in Originality or UoSI, which means you'd be leaning very heavily on Power and Originality. . . assuming the judges find Dark Chaos Shuffle to be Original.

You'd be banking almost exclusively on Power, which this contest's scoring rubric strongly discourages. Horses for courses, and so forth.

[Emperor Tippy]

Dark Chaos Shuffle is Known Cheese that generally indicates that the Feats gained from, for example, the Secret Ingredient aren't the ones you're interested in/able to use effectively. The nature of this particular contest would indicate that approach will not score well in Originality or UoSI, which means you'd be leaning very heavily on Power and Originality. . . assuming the judges find Dark Chaos Shuffle to be Original.

You'd be banking almost exclusively on Power, which this contest's scoring rubric strongly discourages. Horses for courses, and so forth.

It's my cheese originally, but leaving that aside; I'm actually keeping the Cipher Adept feats. Those are at least moderately useful, and I didn't feel that it was within the vein of the challenge to get rid of the prerequisites after I was done with the class (which is RAW legal since this isn't a CW PrC).

[Venger]

What's the normal penalty for Chaos Shuffling feats (not picking up excess from VoP, locations, etc.; just moving around feats in the build)?

My build fits the feel, fluff, and theme of the Cipher Adept but honestly its abilities do **** all for my build.

aside from a mandatory -1 from elegance per flaw taken, there aren't any rules for how judges are supposed to add/deduct for certain things. this is largely left up to the judges themselves who will usually post criteria. as a result, there isn't really any standardization

I can only remember seeing the DCFS used perhaps once or twice since shadowdancer. it saw a pretty heavy deduction in the elegance category.

since you're going to leave the rest of us in the dust no matter what you do, I'd say from one chef to another that the boost in power you'll see is likely to be outweighed by the penalty to elegance, so as a whole, DCFS is inadvisable vis a vis your score. in my experience, it would deal a real blow to your numbers

best of luck

[Emperor Tippy]

aside from a mandatory -1 from elegance per flaw taken, there aren't any rules for how judges are supposed to add/deduct for certain things. this is largely left up to the judges themselves who will usually post criteria. as a result, there isn't really any standardization

I can only remember seeing the DCFS used perhaps once or twice since shadowdancer. it saw a pretty heavy deduction in the elegance category.

since you're going to leave the rest of us in the dust no matter what you do, I'd say from one chef to another that the boost in power you'll see is likely to be outweighed by the penalty to elegance, so as a whole, DCFS is inadvisable vis a vis your score. in my experience, it would deal a real blow to your numbers

best of luck

Hmm, might submit both. One with and one without and just write off the worthless feats.

And nah, I doubt I'll leave everyone in the dust. I don't feel like abusing any real cheese so I'm not cramming 9th level casting or the like into the build.

I also don't really feel like spending a while source diving for obscure PrC's, feats, classes, and items so I'm largely restricting myself to the SRD.

It would amaze me if someone didn't come up with something that is, in my opinion at least, better.

[questionmark693]

Oooohhhh I actually have a good idea! I'm gonna try it :D

[Kazyan]

I've found a nice little toy and it's astounding that, in all of the feats I want, someone forgot to put on the brakes.

I'll have something for sure.

[Kreuz]

A question:

Is "once a class skill, always a class skill" standard for Iron Chef? If it isn't, how hard of a blow should I expect for asuming it? Or is it entirely out of question?

[Thurbane]

I believe the standard skill rules generally apply in IC.

If you've ever had a skill as a class skill, your max ranks = level +3, but if it's not on your current class skill list, you have to pay 2 points for every rank (barring Able Learner etc.).

If you assume any other system, you are very likely to take a hit in Elegance.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I believe the standard skill rules generally apply in IC.

If you've ever had a skill as a class skill, your max ranks = level +3, but if it's not on your current class skill list, you have to pay 2 points for every rank (barring Able Learner etc.).

If you assume any other system, you are very likely to take a hit in Elegance.

Not quite true -

Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.

[OMG PONIES]

I developed it first. So shouldn't I get points for that? And it's really not bad cheese or even moderately hazy cheese. It's a good use of a feature that makes builds more interesting and useful.

As a judge, I'd give points for it being your trick...but I have to be honest that I lose track of who created what. You'd have to remind me, which gets rid of some of the anonymity. It's a vicious spiral; instead, I'd love to get the first taste of some of your newest cheese...cultured from the bacteria that is the Ingredients we choose.


UMD and WBL are expected parts of class power. That you choose to use them should not count against your builds power. Honestly, power should be judged solely based on final product and its ability to deliver. This one should be wholly independent of how such is achieved.

Some judges do look at power in those terms, while others don't.


There is no build that will make these SI ingredients *relevant*. It's only real class abilities are a slightly better Sunder, the ability to free action disarm/sunder on a crit, and a few rounds per day of being Etheral.

The requirement is to use the SI, if your build has all 10 levels of it then you should get a '5' in that category; you can't get more "exemplary" than that.

Therein lies the challenge. It's not just about having the Ingredient in your dish, but HOW you use it.


And I remember why I tend to avoid these things. Horribly bad judging and criteria that are so broad and hazy that the guidelines are virtually worthless.

Do you have any constructive suggestions? We're always open to trying out new things to see what helps. Absent anything constructive, it just feels a bit insulting (as someone who has judged regularly) :smallfrown:.


A question:

Is "once a class skill, always a class skill" standard for Iron Chef? If it isn't, how hard of a blow should I expect for asuming it? Or is it entirely out of question?

Regular rules apply--once a skill is in-class your max number of ranks is the same as it would be for a class skill. How much each rank costs, though, is still determined by whether its actually a class skill (absent other ways to make it one).

EDIT: This is what happens when Tome of Battle is on the list of allowed sources--you get swordsage'd!

[Failed Phantasm]

But that's not an alternate system? I'm fairly sure that particular rule is in the Player's Handbook.

[Kreuz]

Not quite true -

So entirely out of question. Got it.


But that's not an alternate system? I'm fairly sure that particular rule is in the Player's Handbook.

I had to check because I didn't have this clear in my mind... and indeed, your Max Rank becomes Char Level + 3 if it is a multiclass skill, but how much it "costs" to buy a skill rank, is revised level by level.

[Amphetryon]

But that's not an alternate system? I'm fairly sure that particular rule is in the Player's Handbook.

He didn't say it was an alternate system. He was responding to Thurbane's speculation that "If you assume any other system, you are very likely to take a hit in Elegance." You won't take a hit for assuming an alternate system, you'll instead be submitting an invalid build per contest rules.

[Kazyan]

Just look at the bright rays of sunshine in this thread.

On a related note, I'm pretty sure I'll be getting my trademark 1.5 in Elegance again. Call the op-cops; I don't even care.

[Vaz]

The requirement is to use the SI, if your build has all 10 levels of it then you should get a '5' in that category; you can't get more "exemplary" than that.

Hrmm, no.

Take a look at back Keeliani back in Shadowblade. I entered a build which used Evolved Spellstiched Corpsecrafted Necropolitan Incarnate Sandform Unseelie Fey Lesser Aasimar Totemist 5/Crusader 1/Soldier of Light 2/Skullclan Hunter 2/Shadowblade 10

It used all 10 levels, but the build didn't need Shadowblade 10 at all. It was still throwing 5 or more Javelins a turn that near enough instantly hit, each one instantly killing anything not immune to lethal Force Damage.

It didn't get a 5 in UoSI. I got a 1, or 2 at absolute highest. I was marked for the known cheese of the Incarnate Sandform; I might have created that trick under a different pseudonym a few years ago, but its anonymous, who knows? The power was undeniable; sure the build relied upon having enough javelins, which is where the gauntlets of endless jav's came in, but that's not item dependent. I qualified for the SI.

Having a Battle Bridle be your qualification for Prestige Paladin, for example would be item reliant. If your main trick involved having a Scroll of Shapechange/Wish for example (regardless of UoSI)


My build fits the feel, fluff, and theme of the Cipher Adept but honestly its abilities do **** all for my build.
Then why choose the Cipher Adept? This is where you'd bomb the points for not using the abilities of the Cipher Adept? How do you use the Survival Skill? Or the Agile Feat? What about the ability to gain Nimble Fingers as a Bonus Feat? How do these work? Simply qualifying for and then taking the SI to 10th level is not the type of Optimization challenge I think it seems to be your understand it as; this isn't Optimize in spite of the SI, like it was a hurdle, it was Optimize the SI to as much as possible; as otherwise we might as well all just start off with a Kobold with 4 Ranks of K. Planes.

[Thurbane]

Back to the ingredient, I'm going to join in the chorus: this is awful. If it had a decent number of skill points per level, it might be just sub-par instead of truly terrible.

Still racking my brain for a decent, or at least humorous, entry...

[Failed Phantasm]

He didn't say it was an alternate system. He was responding to Thurbane's speculation that "If you assume any other system, you are very likely to take a hit in Elegance." You won't take a hit for assuming an alternate system, you'll instead be submitting an invalid build per contest rules.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood what he meant by that juxtaposition. However, if I were to include an adaptation section in my submitted build, would I then be allowed to mention UA systems like fractional BAB & saves so long as I'm not using them in the actual build itself? It's not finished yet, but fractional values would push its current BAB above 15.

[Emperor Tippy]

As a judge, I'd give points for it being your trick...but I have to be honest that I lose track of who created what. You'd have to remind me, which gets rid of some of the anonymity. It's a vicious spiral; instead, I'd love to get the first taste of some of your newest cheese...cultured from the bacteria that is the Ingredients we choose.
*shrug*
Developing and breaking out new cheese for something like this just isn't really worth it.



Some judges do look at power in those terms, while others don't.

Do you have any constructive suggestions? We're always open to trying out new things to see what helps. Absent anything constructive, it just feels a bit insulting (as someone who has judged regularly) :smallfrown:.

You kinda answered your own question there. My suggestion is clearer criteria with examples for each point on the scale.

For example:

Power: The ability of the build to deliver and solve challenges.
1: Build would have a difficult time against a CR -2 challenge on its own and in a party it would likely be close to dead weight for most such challenges. Think Tier 5-6.
2: Build could contribute to an equal CR challenge within its area of expertise but it needs a party to really stand a chance in such an encounter.
Think Tier 4 (maybe real low Tier 3).
3: Build could carry its own weight in the party and make a decent contribution to most CR appropriate challenges. This is the "average" power level and should be judged in comparison with the ingredients (so something that uses Cipher Adept as its secret ingredient should not be judged the same as something that uses Incantatrix, for example). In other words, this is the power level generally expected from the ingredients and it hasn't been improved but it also hasn't been weakened.
Think high Tier 4 to moderate Tier 3.
4: Build can generally be expected to solo an equal CR challenge, has the versatility to not be shut down by one or two fairly common enemy abilities, build would be accepted without real complaint into a moderately high op game.
Think solid Tier 3.
5: Build is decently high end PO and/or TO and is generally capable of soloing a wide variety of CR appropriate challenges, has enough abilities and tricks to make totally shutting it down pretty much only possible by purpose built opponents, would be considered a powerful component of a moderately high op game.
Think high end Tier 3 or better.

----
Use of the Secret Ingredient:
0. Failed to include any levels of SI.
1. Included at least 1 level of SI.
2. Included less than than all levels of the SI.
3. Included all levels of the SI.
4. Build takes advantage of SI features and makes them at least a moderately important part of the whole.
5. SI and its features are central to the build and are its core component.

---
Elegance:
0: Build does not work by at least RAI.
1: Build is at least RAI legal.
2. Build is at least RAW legal.
3. Build uses most features on the sheet and doesn't appear to have extraneous bits and pieces just hanging around.
4. It is obvious why each part of the build (classes, PrC's, feats, etc.) is in the build and what its contribution to the whole is. Synergies between abilities from different classes, feats, and items are created and/or taken advantage of to improve the build.
5. The build just flows together seamlessly and creates a synergistic whole out of the component parts that can not be topped easily, if at all. (Basically, the judge can't look at the build and say "Why not replace X with Y, doing so would make this a lot better?"; that would get you a 4 and not a 5).

Originality:
0. You copied another persons build whole cloth.
1. You made only minor tweaks to a preexisting build.
2. You pretty much put the build together yourself but its mostly stuff that has been seen before.
3. Your build has at least some unique flair that the judges haven't seen before, it might be a combination of a few different known builds or tricks.
4. Your build is mostly original (or at least mostly new to the judges), it might not have any killer new trick or the like but its definitely new work.
5. You are breaking out things never before seen. This is for new tricks, new cheese, and new capabilities. Said tricks need not be generally applicable.


Then why choose the Cipher Adept? This is where you'd bomb the points for not using the abilities of the Cipher Adept? How do you use the Survival Skill? Or the Agile Feat? What about the ability to gain Nimble Fingers as a Bonus Feat? How do these work? Simply qualifying for and then taking the SI to 10th level is not the type of Optimization challenge I think it seems to be your understand it as; this isn't Optimize in spite of the SI, like it was a hurdle, it was Optimize the SI to as much as possible; as otherwise we might as well all just start off with a Kobold with 4 Ranks of K. Planes.
The problem is that this SI has nothing at all (except possibly sundering and even then its more attacking unattended objects) to optimize or make use of at all. Literally, the bonus feats are of more use than the other class features. I mean the going ethereal ability is better than what the monk gets but that's about it and working around using that is iffy.

With only 9 levels of CA I could maybe make something of that but even then it would be pretty pitiful.

[Vaz]

The problem is that this SI has nothing at all (except possibly sundering and even then its more attacking unattended objects) to optimize or make use of at all. Literally, the bonus feats are of more use than the other class features. I mean the going ethereal ability is better than what the monk gets but that's about it and working around using that is iffy.

With only 9 levels of CA I could maybe make something of that but even then it would be pretty pitiful.
Welcome to Iron Chef.

[Haluesen]

There does seem to be a fair bit of negative discussion here. :smallfrown: But reading through all this and I see a few major things.

Yes, this class is pretty crappy. Making anything serviceable with this will be hard. But that's the whole point. It's taking a tough thing and not just adding it to whatever else build, but turning what people think about it on its head. Making it work for what it is. My first character in the Urban Soul contest had Urban Soul levels, used Urban Soul abilities, but he wasn't a real Urban Soul, and that really hurt the build. Then my submission for ToT got a lot higher because I honestly used the ingredient and made it central to the build. That is what all this is about. If you don't care for that kind of challenge, then you probably don't really care for this kind of thing. And if you do like the competitions but just hate this class entirely and don't think anything can be done with it, than you are just limiting yourself and that will always hurt any build. I say this to anyone with thoughts along these lines. So feel free to just make a build, work with what there is, and just have fun with the experience. It's what I do and it hasn't steered me wrong yet.

EDIT: That all said, I do really feel like Tippy's judging criteria are quite interesting and I think very workable. So kudos there. :smallbiggrin:

Was coming up with some initial ideas but then I realized (from my own advice but more from others here) that I wasn't really going to be showing the SI as well as I could. So gonna go rethink it and see what comes up.

[mattie_p]

This... actually came together kind of quickly. Build Table is done, skills and all. Should I be concerned?

[Emperor Tippy]

The problem is that there is nothing at all to work with. No foundation to build on.

Strike the Weak: Only works on unattended objects so generally worthless for combat; and an Adamantium dagger can generally do the same thing only better.

Evasion/Improved Evasion: Nothing much to do with these. Maybe use as prerequisites for something else or in combination with a Starmantle Cloak.

Combat Instinct: Initiative boost. Nothing to do with this. Factotum 3 with an Int of 16 or better is a far better initiative booster.

Bonus Feats: These sorta make up for having to take Agile and Dodge to get into the class in the first place, but most of the list really sucks.

Combination Strike: Free action sunder or disarm attempt when you confirm a melee crit, provokes AoO's unless you have the relevant feat(s). About the only thing in the entire class that can theoretically be optimized and made better, maybe.

Move Without Barriers: Kinda sorta nice but nothing much to optimize or synergize with your rounds/day ability to go etheral. Mostly useful as a utility ability to get through locked doors and the like.


BAB: 3/4.
Skills: A sorta possibly decent list but only 2+Int per level means that you can barely keep critical skills maxed.

---
There you go, that is the Cipher Adept. There is nothing *to* use or make central to a build (beyond lots of attacks with high threat range weapons and Disarm optimization).

[Kuulvheysoon]

The problem is that this SI has nothing at all (except possibly sundering and even then its more attacking unattended objects) to optimize or make use of at all. Literally, the bonus feats are of more use than the other class features. I mean the going ethereal ability is better than what the monk gets but that's about it and working around using that is iffy.

With only 9 levels of CA I could maybe make something of that but even then it would be pretty pitiful.


Welcome to Iron Chef.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Kreuz]

This... actually came together kind of quickly. Build Table is done, skills and all. Should I be concerned?

Nope, same here, just had to move a couple numbers to adjust to the normal rules for skills.

It is the beauty of this PrC, it doesn't have obscure or complex mechanics... it just... is.

[Emperor Tippy]

Welcome to Iron Chef.


I couldn't have said it better myself.


I've looked through the list of previous ingredients and there are maybe three that are equally worthless.

Many of them might suck but they at least have something to build around. CA really doesn't.

[Deadline]

I've looked through the list of previous ingredients and there are maybe three that are equally worthless.

Many of them might suck but they at least have something to build around. CA really doesn't.

That's absolutely a fair point, and it's the main reason I'm thinking I may sit out this round.

That said, the Iron Chef competition here takes more from its namesake than you may be giving it credit for. After all, in the Iron Chef cooking competition, presentation is a key part of your entry, not just taste. If you can't find something good to do with the mechanics, focus on building a character that fits the flavor as best you can. I did a couple of entries for Bladesinger that focused more on the fluff of the class than the crunch, mostly because there wasn't much crunch. It's also why I avoided Wizard in my builds, because there wasn't anything that Bladesinger could give me that was better than just more levels of Wizard.

Your comments about the judging criteria being a little fuzzy are spot on. As far as I can tell, this is totally on purpose. The competition has, at least in part, an artistic bent to it. An element of subjectivity in judging is both desired, and exciting. It's also why the dispute period exists. It is worth noting, however, that your judging criteria is not that different to the judging criteria of all the judges I've been a witness to. The main thing is that the judges strive for consistency, and have (in my experience) been fair.

Make no mistake, we'd like to see powerful entries here, but the general consensus seems to be that if you shoot for a build that you would play 1-20, most DMs would generally welcome, and really embodies the SI, you've got a shot at the gold.

At any rate, I'd be delighted to see you compete in this contest Tippy. While this ingredient may not be something you think you can work with, perhaps you'd consider throwing your hat into the ring and judging this round?

[Vaz]

It is why people are moaning in particular about this one.

Look, Tippy. No-one is forcing you to compete. Enter if you want. Sure, things can always be improved upon, and the judging is highly subjective. We're talking about having different builds rated for fun in the eyes of a DM/judge.

If you feel the Judge's will accept that a Special Ingredient optimizing challenge entrant involving no-use of the SI whatsoever and known cheese is perfect for a Special Ingredient optimizing challenge, then by all means enter.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at; I don't want to turn this into a rage fest, but it seems like you're turning up at a football game asking when the basketball is due to start.

Maybe next months competition would be more your type?

[Emperor Tippy]

At any rate, I'd be delighted to see you compete in this contest Tippy. While this ingredient may not be something you think you can work with, perhaps you'd consider throwing your hat into the ring and judging this round?
Oh I already have my build mostly done and as I said it fits thematically and fluff wise, it is just that the most beneficial part of the SI are its bonus feats followed by the initiative boost.

And maybe, I still have time to decide.



Look, Tippy. No-one is forcing you to compete. Enter if you want. Sure, things can always be improved upon, and the judging is highly subjective. We're talking about having different builds rated for fun in the eyes of a DM/judge.
Except "fun" isn't one of the listed judgement criteria in the OP. Hence my problem with how vague in general the judging criteria are. Just think about how I, for example, judge power and cheese compared to a lot of other forum members. I would be throwing out 2's for power on the same builds that other judges are giving 5's to. I would be penalizing you on elegance for not using Embrace/Shun and leaving feats that do nothing to help your build on your build while other judges would penalize you for using Embrace/Shun to change those same feats.

My problem with the judging criteria is that they are more arbitrary and variable than the ones I am using for my monk challenge.


If you feel the Judge's will accept that a Special Ingredient optimizing challenge entrant involving no-use of the SI whatsoever and known cheese is perfect for a Special Ingredient optimizing challenge, then by all means enter.
Where did I say that I didn't use the SI? I have ten levels of Cipher Adept in my build.


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at; I don't want to turn this into a rage fest, but it seems like you're turning up at a football game asking when the basketball is due to start.
Not at all. I'm turning up at a football game and saying "so what rules are we playing with?" and the response I receive runs the gamut from "pick up touch football rules" to "NFL playoff level".

What is par for the course or acceptable in one will be wildly out of place in the other.

[The Viscount]

Acceptable varies somewhat on judge, which is why they post criteria to help with guidelines. As for the criteria themselves, they aren't as strictly defined as you observed partially because of the variance in SI quality, power, etc. For example, Initiate of Pistis Sophia set things like power rather low, as it required so many monk levels, and originality was handled more leniently because there were 2 means of entry. Geomancer had a very different approach to power, as 9nth level spells were obtainable.

If the criteria were in strictly defined categories, smaller differences would be harder to express, and sometimes smaller differences are all there are between one entry and another, such as in Shadow Sentinel when two entries had the same number of levels in the same classes, and even shared some feats.

My 2cp on the way we do things. If you need better examples, there's always the past contests linked in the OP.

[Hecuba]

In to cook.

[Deadline]

Just think about how I, for example, judge power and cheese compared to a lot of other forum members. I would be throwing out 2's for power on the same builds that other judges are giving 5's to. I would be penalizing you on elegance for not using Embrace/Shun and leaving feats that do nothing to help your build on your build while other judges would penalize you for using Embrace/Shun to change those same feats.

As long as you are consistent in your judgings, and the the other judges are consistent in theirs, it doesn't matter. The winner will be the one with the best average score from all the judges.

Maybe it's just me, but having more strictly defined judging criteria would ruin the entertainment for me. If all I had to do to place high was crunch some numbers, tic off the criteria boxes, and send it in, the whole contest would very much feel more like taking a test than an Iron Chef style competition.

[Immabozo]

build is getting done, but I am way to tired! Reading these books right now makes me want to punch a baby in the face...

[yugi24862]

On the point of the SI, I do think this is a bad SI for Iron chief. Simply because it has no unique class features. Even the disarm on crit threat simply requires a EWP:flidbar to replicate. Urban Soul, however, was a good SI. It had a wide variety of entries, and had several unique features in all-day SLAs and other class features. It was subpar power-wise, but you could take in different directions. Cipher adept has nothing like that.

[FyreByrd]

I...might...have...something...

I'm tentatively in to cook, but I've got to do some double checking to make sure what I want to do actually is legal.

And in other news:

I don't actually look at a judges criteria before putting together a build, and having a "standard" criteria equally wouldn't be of any interest to me

Why? Because I use this as a creativity exercise to see what I can bring out of D&D3.5, If a judge gives me good scores that's gravy...if I think they've made a mistake in judging I may call them on it, but it's unlikely. I desperately want to see if I can make a character that I would actually play with what is a horrible ingredient. That's what I liked about my Urban Soul entry, I would totally play that, yeah it (obviously, didn't know that then) repeated some stuff from other competition, yeah I screwed up one of my pre-req', yeah I placed just in the top half, all that is additional to the fact that I managed to make a character that I liked/enjoyed/would play with something that tasted pretty nasty.

Although of course 2nd place is for chumps winning is all

[thethird]

Well all this Secret Ingredient discussion... I think I should apologize to the chairman this is quite an o.k. secret ingredient, when building Ornixen (the only other time that I competed) it took me more time to cook.

At the moment I only lack a backstory, which due to fluff requirements off my ingredients should come easily enough. I also will do it now, since I slept (I was cooking while suffering from sleep deprivation) :smalltongue:


This... actually came together kind of quickly. Build Table is done, skills and all. Should I be concerned?


Nope, same here, just had to move a couple numbers to adjust to the normal rules for skills.

It is the beauty of this PrC, it doesn't have obscure or complex mechanics... it just... is.

It also seems that other chefs are getting their cooking really fast which is nice.


I desperately want to see if I can make a character that I would actually play with what is a horrible ingredient.

QFT I'm really proud of myself when I build a character that would be able to stand its ground against a good party of tier 3 players, and contribute meaningfully.

[Immabozo]

I think I heard there is a more comprehensive FAQ, how do I find it?

[Kreuz]

I am currently working on another build! I like the first one, but I may like this other one better :smallamused:

EDIT: Another question!

No longer qualifying for a PrC makes me lose all class abilities granted by that PrC? speaking about alignment requirements.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, I'm in to judge I suppose. Hopefully I'll be able to have a shot at cooking next round.

[Venger]

I am currently working on another build! I like the first one, but I may like this other one better :smallamused:

EDIT: Another question!

No longer qualifying for a PrC makes me lose all class abilities granted by that PrC? speaking about alignment requirements.

as tippy mentioned, RAW this is only true for PRCs from complete warrior.

some prcs (such as defiant, for example) have an ex-prc member thing that activates if you break a code of conduct.

that said, some judges extrapolate complete warrior's restrictions on prcs to applying to all classes (creating things like schroedinger's ur-priest) so if you plan to not qualify for a class after you've got what you need from it, be prepared for some judges to complain.

[Kreuz]

Yes, I've read something about a Dragon Disciple forever insta-blinking between dragon/non-dragon.

So that is a "thou shall suffer" situation, then. That's good to know, I guess.

[Phippster]

Ugh, this ingredient makes my skin crawl. I'll see what I can come up with, I have a vague idea that's probably both predictable and god-awful, but we'll see how it goes. I'd say I'd try judging if I can't come up with something, but there appears to be plenty of judges already, so if I can't cook I think I'll just spectate.

[Amphetryon]

I think I heard there is a more comprehensive FAQ, how do I find it?

There wasn't, other than the 2nd post of the thread.

There is now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15415117#post15415117). :smallsmile:

[Haluesen]

Good looks like some nice advice there. :smallsmile:

Got most of a build started and working out more ideas for using this ingredient. At least the fluff will be brilliant I think. Should have the build done by tomorrow or Thursday at the latest. I don't want to have mine in at the very last minute like last time with barely anything done well. Sooner I finish those charts the more time I have for every other part of it.

[Immabozo]

There wasn't, other than the 2nd post of the thread.

There is now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15415117#post15415117). :smallsmile:

Thanks! I appreciate it

[Kuulvheysoon]

...which is now linked to in the FAQ post.

You know, in case we ever get a new Chef. Oh, like that'll ever happen...

[Kreuz]

I... I am new...

I have to tell you a secret... I have actually played almost no D&D...

[Kuulvheysoon]

Blue text generally denotes sarcasm.

[Kreuz]

Good to know!

[The Viscount]

Quick note on being disqualified from a PrC. While you lose unique class features, you do retain BA, saves, and HD, though not skills, oddly enough.

[Venger]

Quick note on being disqualified from a PrC. While you lose unique class features, you do retain BA, saves, and HD, though not skills, oddly enough.

again, only RAW for the CWar classes (depending on the judge, some may ignore this)

to my recollection, skills are a "side effect" of HD, so I believe you would keep them as well if you lost class features from a class where this is possible, such as paladin or gray guard.the same as you would keep feats you took if you, for example, attained level 6 while being a paladin and then fell, you wouldn't lose the feat you took while leveling up.

[thethird]

Build submitted :smallsmile:

Chairman check your inbox.

[Vaz]

again, only RAW for the CWar classes (depending on the judge, some may ignore this)
Is it not CA as well (not that it's particularly pertinent, however?)

[Deadline]

I think I'm in to judge on this one. I'm due to judge, and the only thing I'm really coming up with for the SI is a joke build based on a friend's recommendation. While I think the build would be hilarious, it would also be terrible, and I just don't want to waste the judges time with it.

I'll have my criteria up later today.

[Deadline]

Good luck to the contestants, you've got the most bland ingredient I've seen in the IC competitions to work with!

Without further ado, here's how I'll be looking at builds this time around.

Judging criteria:

I'm going with the rather standard 3 point baseline in each category, adjusted up or down based on your dish choices. I'm going to judge dishes with the same sort of eye I would GM for them.

You may find a number of commonalities with other judges' criteria here, and that's because I'm a terrible, terrible plagiarist.

Originality


What is it that you've chosen for your dish? Is it surprising, does it do things I haven't seen before? Did you use something completely off-the-wall or unexpected? Did you use a well known trick in a new or different way? All of these things will generally warrant an increase to your score. Well known tricks (I dont' care if you invented it 2 years ago, it's still a 2 year old trick), expected elements, using a well-known build, or using a build very similar to the example build for the SI will generally warrant a decrease in score. Using expected elements in your dish will generally warrant a decrease in score, unless those elements are required by the SI.

All of that said, the general rule of thumb for scoring well in this category is "do something new or fresh with your approach".

And now for the plagiarism. I liked mattie_p's "Baseline build" section so much, I'm stealing it. Word for word.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that steers clear of known cheese and standard build elements, but doesn't necessarily make me sit up and go "wow." Builds that involve new combinations or focus on unexpected elements will score higher here, while builds that utilize known cheese or that are pretty much stock builds will score lower.


Power


When shooting for power, the main focus is on how well you perform your intended role, how versatile you are with your various tricks, how solid your power is from 1-20, and what happens to you if some or all of your tricks are rendered irrelevant.

Spells are not the only measure of power, and perhaps more importantly, I'll be looking at your dish over its various level breakpoints to determine power. If you can't punch a hole in a wet paper bag from levels 1-19 but gain the power of a 20th level wizard at 20th level, you may get less of an increase than someone who had a solid power curve all the way to 20, assuming you both ended in a similar level of power at 20. As I said earlier, power will be a function of how well you perform your intended role. What tricks are you throwing out, how potent are they, and how do you handle hard counters to your tricks?

WBL Item dependent power will generally mean a decrease here. Everyone gets better with items, I'm interested in what your dish can do without them. That said, if you want to point out where a specific item would enhance one of your tricks beyond the obvious, feel free to point it out.

More plagiarism! Word for word save for an extra sentence at the end.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that can meaningfully contribute to a party in most CR-appropriate encounters. Builds that can't, either because their overall power is too low or because they only function in very specific situations, will score lower here. Builds that are particularly proficient or useful, or that can meaningfully contribute even in over-CR'd encounters, will score higher. Builds that maintain a solid power curve over their 1-20 progression will score higher here.


Elegance


[Citation Needed] - Seriously, don't make me dig through books or guess at what minute detail you used from some obscure source. At the very least, please indicate what came from where. I'm generally familiar with the Completes, Core/SRD, and the Spell Compendium. Beyond that, it would be nice to have an indicator that "Black Blood of the Earth" is a feat from the Complete Guide to Big Trouble in Little China. Especially if this competition churns out 20+ entrants.

Like other judges, I'm not a huge fan of smashing multiple setting specific material together, UNLESS we are talking about something in the Planescape setting. Basically, if it's an obvious power grab that slaps the setting material in the face, you'll probably get points in power, but lose points here.

Did you qualify for everything you took? Does everything flow together well? Did you avoid random dips? Does your fluff justify anything that needs to be justified? These will all generally get you an increase.

Alignment shift shenanigans may result in a decrease here.

Entering the SI as early as possible is generally looked favorably upon. When you enter the SI may result in a score modification.

Your presentation is important here. Is everything clean and easy to read? Did you keep your fluff skirt length (this is not a prose contest)?

I mentioned it earlier, but it bears repeating. I'm judging these entries with the same eyes I'd use if I were GMing. So heavy cheese and questionable tricks may score points in originality and power, but those same tactics may cost you here. Since it has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, I'll go on the record as being one of those people who believe that when you don't meet the prerequisites of X, you no longer benefit from X. Feats, prestige classes, etc. And don't try to get smug and ask me what happens to Dragon Disciples with the capstone, I'll do the same thing I'd do at my table - tell you they still work fine and throw a book at your head.

That said, I'm not opposed to your dish being awesome, just to questionable interpretations of the rules. Pure RAW leaves a hilariously unplayable game, so breaking your character with RAW will cost you here (and remember that power can only go to a maximum of 5). As time goes on, I'll try to list out in my future criteria any things that come up in which I'll side against, but given the enormous amount of options out there, I'll only be able to add to this list as I come across them.

Plagiarism Parrot says that this baseline build paragraph is awesome! Raaawwwk!

BASELINE BUILD: A build that you can pick up and walk over to almost any table, and it won't raise any eyebrows. Builds that are DM-dependent or questionable rules-wise will score lower here, as will builds that are clunky and messy. Builds that are a thing of beauty will score higher here - ones that make even the stuffiest DM sit up and say, hey, that's awesome, I'd love to have you in our group.


Use of Secret Ingredient


First and foremost, if you don't qualify for the SI, you get a 1 here (1 is the minimum score in a category, right?). Make sure your dish qualifies for the SI. Also, given the nature of this contest and its rules, I'm fairly certain I'd be justified in giving you a 1 if you use no levels of the SI. If you want to submit a dish that mimics the SI, the Zinc Saucier competition is a few threads down.

Using less than the full 10 levels of the SI will usually result in a decrease. Exceptions can be made here, but the dish had better really represent the SI.

For the most part, the way to score high here is to make sure your dish really embodies the SI. Have you used all parts of the SI to good effect? Did you really use the SI's abilities, or just "get" them? As an example, Talon of Tiamat gained an immunity to a chosen element at a certain level. Had that been the SI, did you find a way to use that other than, "I took immunity to fire because it's the most common element."? Finding a way to showcase all parts of the SI in an interesting manner will be the path to scoring highly here. Make the SI the focus of your dish, and enhance it. If you overpower the SI with abilities or features from other elements, I'm going to ask the question, "Why did you use the SI, instead of more of that?" That question will cost you points.

Be sure to read the fluff for the SI, because that will be guiding my judgment when I look at these entries. Does your dish feel like the SI?

Plagiarizers gonna plagiarize.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that manages to use the secret ingredient without crying out to me, "HEY, this is only here because of a stupid contest, OK!" Builds that utilize all of the SI's abilities to good effect, and who really sell the idea that only the SI would have worked here, will score higher. Builds that don't really get any use out of the class features or pre-reqs, or that would really obviously just do better with another option, will score lower.

[thethird]

One minor question, that was raised by deadline's criteria (which is pretty cool), are we assuming that the planar's handbook baseline fluff is greyhawk/planescape? Forgotten realms, dragonlance, eberron, ghostwalk, rokugan, etcetera would be frowned upon?

(I'm not actually going to change my build, but I am curious)

[Vaz]

More judges than competitors me-thinks.

Edit@ thethird; Cross-setting material includes stuff like the last competition having Forgotten Realms specific Dragons (although I personally contest that) with the Sovereign Archetypes from Eberron.

A Character using Karmic Strike from OA and Power Lunge from Ghostwalk would not be considered cross-setting (In my eyes, anyhow).

However, including the Bazareene Noble Family Sorcerer with a Dragonmark adopted into the Unicorn Clan who on their travels learned about circle magic from the Red Wizards of Thay, that is however utter cross-setting madness, if extremely aweseom.

[Deadline]

One minor question, that was raised by deadline's criteria (which is pretty cool), are we assuming that the planar's handbook baseline fluff is greyhawk/planescape? Forgotten realms, dragonlance, eberron, ghostwalk, rokugan, etcetera would be frowned upon?

(I'm not actually going to change my build, but I am curious)

I'm assuming it's Planescape, what with the Cipher Adept being a prestige class for one of the Planescape factions. So, barring any jarring fluff contradiction I might have missed, kitchen sink away!

[thethird]

Oh well, thanks for the clarification. I doubt I will write a second build... but I am scrapping some ideas.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Build submitted :smallsmile:

Chairman check your inbox.

Confirmed.

[Kreuz]

I'm assuming it's Planescape, what with the Cipher Adept being a prestige class for one of the Planescape factions. So, barring any jarring fluff contradiction I might have missed, kitchen sink away!

In 3.5 that translates to Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes, am I right?

[thethird]

Confirmed.

Great. Hides in his cave and starts working on another build

[Amechra]

Planescape is the kitchen sink, anyway.

[Haluesen]

:smallconfused: I feel a bit bad that I don't know anything about most of these campaign settings. I've always played in homebrew generally generic settings so all of these...I hope it doesn't affect my build.

[Vaz]

Urgh, why do you offer Disarm based abilities, Improved Disarm as a bonus feat, and then still require Combat Expertise, but;
a) Not offer it as a Bonus Feat
b) Have no Int based Class Features
c) Have only a single Int based skill
d) Require no Int-based entry
e) Have barely any skill points

RARGH. Back to the drawing board.

Edit; That was actually easily fixed. It's no longer good at disarming, but hot-damn, it's a bit better now.

[thethird]

:smallconfused: I feel a bit bad that I don't know anything about most of these campaign settings. I've always played in homebrew generally generic settings so all of these...I hope it doesn't affect my build.

Don't worry my build is on [REDACTED] setting.


Urgh, why do you offer Disarm based abilities, Improved Disarm as a bonus feat, and then still require Combat Expertise, but;
a) Not offer it as a Bonus Feat
b) Have no Int based Class Features
c) Have only a single Int based skill
d) Require no Int-based entry
e) Have barely any skill points

RARGH. Back to the drawing board.

Having the same trouble with my second build idea.

[Immabozo]

Having the same trouble with my second build idea.

Theoretically taking a whole different direction after scrapping my first build, but haven't had time to actually put pen to paper to see if it works.

[Haluesen]

Don't worry my build is on [REDACTED] setting.

Oh, well okay then. At least I know I won't be copying your build. :smallbiggrin:

[3WhiteFox3]

Here's my judging criteria:

All builds start with 3 points and are modified up or down based on questions I will be asking myself as I judge the builds. Those questions are detailed below for your reference.

Originality:
This covers how interesting I thought your build is, and how it stands out from the crowd (aside from it's relative power, that's covered in the power section obviously). It should be noted that I see Iron Chef as being a contest of trade-offs

Questions:

How similar is the build to the other builds?
How does it differentiate itself from other similar builds?
Does it bring to light new or interesting concepts or tricks?
Does it find something cool to make itself more flavorful and vibrant?



Positive points will be earned by unique and fresh ideas, as well as elements of the build that stand out from other builds. The use of unique races, feats, classes will give points, as will unique concepts that aren't covered by others.


Negative points go to boring or obvious builds. Builds that are overly similar to other builds will also lose points, though simply using the same basic concepts will be minimally penalized (if it's penalized at all, which is unlikely). Basically, avoid anything stock or vanilla to do well here. Strive to do something new in all areas of your build to avoid a poor rating.

Power:
Power covers how mechanically strong your character is, and how it compares to the other builds in terms of strength. Optimization is the key word here.

Questions:

How does this build compare to a more traditionally built character (Ex: Those characters that don't take prestige classes or multiclass much.)
Does the build stand out from similar builds in terms of power?
How does your build deal with appropriate CR'ed threats?
Does the build excel at anything?


(I use the tier system, so anything that can hang out around the tier 3-4 area is suitable, though obviously higher tier characters are more powerful and score better in this area.)


Positive points come from having a character be able to deal with encounters effectively. They also come from performing a role well and from having tricks and strategies that your character can use to fight effectively. Builds should aim for tier 4 (strong at one thing, below par or mediocre at others) at the very lowest, with higher being better. Builds that stand out because of mechanical abilities will also come out stronger here as do builds that excel in more than one area.


Negative points are given to builds that lack the ability to deal with CR appropriate threats, that don't perform well in encounters and that don't use any real trick to contribute in a fight. Builds that are bad all around and only marginally acceptable in one or two areas get negative points. Builds with extreme weaknesses suffer here, likewise builds that focus too much on one aspect of power are likely to lose points.


Elegance:
Elegance is about how well your build is presented, and how seamlessly everything flows. It also covers flavor, fluff, simplicity and how much your build sacrifices of those qualities for other areas (typically power).

Questions:

Is the build simple, complex or a mix of both?
Does the build rely on odd dips or gleaming off of front-loaded classes/prestige classes?
Is there strong flavor in the build, or does it feel stock?
Is the build 100% legal?
Does it rely on RAW-bending tricks for power?
Do the elements of the build flow seamlessly together; do the component parts synergize with themselves?


A note about backstories: I do not penalize for the lack of a backstory nor for the quality of the backstory. However, strong backstories can give you bonus points in different areas, particularly in Elegance, but also Originality and even Use of Secret Ingredient depending on the quality of the writing.


Positive points are awarded for simplicity of the build. How the different pieces of the build fit together into a cohesive whole. The simplicity of the entire build. A well laid out build that is easy to understand as well as containing all necessary information that I would need to pick up and play the build. Tricks should be well-thought out and clearly explained. The most elegant builds have strong flavorful elements and tie the fluff of the build into the mechanics. If the build flows well, expect a good score.


Negative points are handed out to clunky builds. Builds that are overly complex lose points here, even though they may gain those points back in other areas. Builds that aren't legal, use questionable, ambiguously RAW or overly DM-dependant tricks will be penalized. Builds that are dip-heavy or sacrifices simplicity/flavor for power also will also take negative points. Confusing builds or tricks that are ill-explained are not good either.

Use of Secret Ingredient:
This is how your build uses the SI and how much of the build's focus and foundation is on the ingredient. Builds should emphasize the ingredient and not detract from it by overshadowing it.

Questions:

Does the power of the build come from the ingredient?
Does the ingredient offer strong fluff or flavor to the build?
Does the build feel like it someone with the ingredient should?
Is the build reliant on the SI, or does it feel tacked on?
Do you use as many of the SI's abilities as possible?


Positive points go to builds with a strong use of the ingredient and whose power, fluff and flavor work with and enhance the ingredient to make a stronger more appetizing whole. Builds should emphasize the SI and feel like that they could showcase the ingredient. The ingredient should influence how your build is presented and how it is flavored.


Negative points are given to those builds that poorly use the ingredient and rely too much on other sources for the substance of the build. Builds should not work as well without the ingredient and should not feel like the ingredient is worthless or overshadowed by anything else. The point of having an ingredient is to make it look as good as possible, you can't do that if you barely use it.


Hoo boy, it's a bit lengthy, and not the best worded at times, this is also a learning experience for me as a judge, so if somethings don't make sense, let me know.

[thethird]

More judges! Cool! Don't worry about it being lengthy, it is clearer this way.

At the moment I am really sad because I stumbled into an interesting trick combination... but that would need to wait because it is much better without the SI. :smallsigh:

[Piggy Knowles]

More judges! Cool! Don't worry about it being lengthy, it is clearer this way.

At the moment I am really sad because I stumbled into an interesting trick combination... but that would need to wait because it is much better without the SI. :smallsigh:

I have a google doc where I save neat tricks and ideas I find in case there's ever a secret ingredient that could use them...

I'm maybe 75% happy with my current build. I'm going to let it stew for a while and see if I can tweak it up to 100%.

[Immabozo]

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Sunday, June 22th, 2013

Sunday is the 23rd. Did you mean 11:59PM GMT on Saturday the 22nd? Or Sunday the 23rd?

[Kazyan]

In the process of debugging this build, I managed to replace a bunch of stuff with a single option that makes it work a lot better, and fixes the bug! Woo! I want to hug this thingie that cannot be mentioned due to build spoilage.

[thethird]

I want to see people's builds :smallmad:

[Amphetryon]

I want to see people's builds :smallmad:

Somethingsomething/Cipher Adept/Somethingsomething, where "Somethingsomething" may represent any number of additional Classes.

Happy now?:smallwink:

[Haluesen]

I want to see people's builds :smallmad:

Well I used a little bit of [REDACTED] with just a pinch of [REDACTED] to make the SI shine. :smallbiggrin: The class features from [REDACTED] give the SI a little power boost hopefully without overshadowing it, not that that will be easy. I also suppose there are many more powerful or interesting options than [REDACTED] but it works with the fluff for this character in my opinion. Does that help at all?

[thethird]

Somethingsomething/Cipher Adept/Somethingsomething, where "Somethingsomething" may represent any number of additional Classes.

Happy now?:smallwink:

Oh man that's my build too :smalleek:


Well I used a little bit of [REDACTED] with just a pinch of [REDACTED] to make the SI shine. :smallbiggrin: The class features from [REDACTED] give the SI a little power boost hopefully without overshadowing it, not that that will be easy. I also suppose there are many more powerful or interesting options than [REDACTED] but it works with the fluff for this character in my opinion. Does that help at all?

Nah... that's not my build. Interesting though.

My build uses [redacted] and [redacted] because if not getting into [redacted] would be pretty difficult. And then it kicks [redacted] in the [totally redacted]

---

On a side note, assuming that the 10 levels of the SI are taken, how many classes would be considered to much dipping around? 2? 10?

[Kreuz]

Hey, I also used a [REDACTED] for [REDACTED] to be able to [REDACTED] along with the Cipher Adept's [REDACTED].

This reminds me about the SCP Foundation...

[dysprosium]

I want to see people's builds :smallmad:

Mine has Cipher Adept in it.

[The Viscount]

I believe Ponies usually classifies excessive dipping as taking 2 or fewer levels in 3 or more classes.

[OMG PONIES]

Dangit, I hate when I get additional ideas while researching. First build is pretty much ready to go, second build is under advisement, and there's a third that doesn't do anything too fancy but is just a fun concept.


I believe Ponies usually classifies excessive dipping as taking 2 or fewer levels in 3 or more classes.

Aye, that he does. It's been a moving target; for example, is Class A 3/Class B 3/Class C 3 dipping? However, for now, the above definition is what I use when judging. As always, your mileage may (and will) vary.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sunday is the 23rd. Did you mean 11:59PM GMT on Saturday the 22nd? Or Sunday the 23rd?

Saturday the 22nd. Damn, I forgot to change the date. Why do I keep doing that?

[Haluesen]

Good to know my build is unlikely to be copied. :smallcool:

I've never cared for class dipping. It just makes so little sense for a character story to me. Things like 2 levels of fighter for feats, or a level of barbarian for totems, or similiar things, just sacrifice too much flavor or elegance for the power they give. Thought this way since before joining this.

Oh and my build also has Cipher Adept. :smallbiggrin: Who knew right?

[mattie_p]

Saturday the 22nd. Damn, I forgot to change the date. Why do I keep doing that?

I think that problem is ubiquitous among chairmen for the first few competitions. I myself frequently have that problem when doing the initial post for Zinc Saucier, just now getting it correct the first time (of course, now that I say this, someone will point out a typo of that nature).

[Immabozo]

Saturday the 22nd. Damn, I forgot to change the date. Why do I keep doing that?

Thanks for clearing that up

[Haluesen]

I actually admit to having just checked the inc Saucier challenge, and woah! That is an interesting sort of idea there certainly. Make a class without using a class? Definitely sounds intriguing. :smallsmile: I'd probably be up to joining just for the class chosen, but it is hard enough for me to make one character build while having schoolwork. Two is unmanageable. But I wish all the competitors there the best of luck.

[mattie_p]

I actually admit to having just checked the inc Saucier challenge, and woah! That is an interesting sort of idea there certainly. Make a class without using a class? Definitely sounds intriguing. :smallsmile: I'd probably be up to joining just for the class chosen, but it is hard enough for me to make one character build while having schoolwork. Two is unmanageable. But I wish all the competitors there the best of luck.

I've been trying to keep it staggered from IC, just so potential competitors only have to focus on one competition at a time.

[Haluesen]

Ah I see then. In that case maybe at some point I will give it a try. :smallsmile: For now though I am behind on my progress for this build so I must get chugging along. Wish everyone here the best as well!

[Amphetryon]

Spiffy new avatar, Chairman. :smallcool:

[Razanir]

Can we have an SRD ingredient soon? I really want to join one of these, but the only splatbook I have is Complete Adventurer.

Defense:
There are 23 PrCs in the SRD, not counting the Thrallherd because that would completely conflict with the Leadership ban. We've had four so far: iterations 12, 16, 26 and 34. Ignoring the War Mind for iteration 12, that's about every 10 iterations. Next iteration is #45. That's as good a time as any to declare it SRD if it ends in 5. And trust me, we won't run out any time soon. If you make every tenth contest from the SRD, you're good until contest 235.

[Amphetryon]

Can we have an SRD ingredient soon? I really want to join one of these, but the only splatbook I have is Complete Adventurer.

Defense:
There are 23 PrCs in the SRD, not counting the Thrallherd because that would completely conflict with the Leadership ban. We've had four so far: iterations 12, 16, 26 and 34. Ignoring the War Mind for iteration 12, that's about every 10 iterations. Next iteration is #45. That's as good a time as any to declare it SRD if it ends in 5. And trust me, we won't run out any time soon. If you make every tenth contest from the SRD, you're good until contest 235.

Some of those in the SRD are less than 10 levels, unless that's already figured in your maths.

[Draz74]

Can we have an SRD ingredient soon? I really want to join one of these, but the only splatbook I have is Complete Adventurer.

Defense:
There are 23 PrCs in the SRD, not counting the Thrallherd because that would completely conflict with the Leadership ban. We've had four so far: iterations 12, 16, 26 and 34. Ignoring the War Mind for iteration 12, that's about every 10 iterations. Next iteration is #45. That's as good a time as any to declare it SRD if it ends in 5. And trust me, we won't run out any time soon. If you make every tenth contest from the SRD, you're good until contest 235.

Most of the SRD PrCs that haven't been used yet have been vetoed for one reason or another.

Arcane Trickster and Loremaster (and Thrallherd, which also has the leadership problem) are too easy to incorporate into standard full-caster builds; Eldritch Knight/Slayer and Mystic Theurge/Cerebremancer, too, sort of (plus most of them are totally devoid of interesting class features). Archmage and Thaumaturgist have the same problem, plus they're only 5 levels long. Hierophant too. And chairpersons have mentioned that Metamind is too potent for their taste, with some of the known tricks that can be used with it.

Elocator is an option, although it would be on the powerful end for Iron Chef. Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, and Duelist could be done, but they'd be on the weak side even for Iron Chef; plus, two of them have racial restrictions that would curb the variety of entry characters.

That leaves Psion Uncarnate, Psionic Fist, Blackguard, and Horizon Walker. None of those really sound like exciting ingredients, but I can't really think of reasons to rule them out either.

EDIT/NITPICKS: You missed one SRD PrC that's already been done: Pyrokineticist, Round 8. Also, technically there are 9 more PrCs in the SRD, but being Epic means they're obviously not relevant to this discussion ...

[Venger]

That leaves Psion Uncarnate, Psionic Fist, Blackguard, and Horizon Walker. None of those really sound like exciting ingredients, but I can't really think of reasons to rule them out either.

EDIT/NITPICKS: You missed one SRD PrC that's already been done: Pyrokineticist, Round 8. Also, technically there are 9 more PrCs in the SRD, but being Epic means they're obviously not relevant to this discussion ...

one reason to rule out blackguard is that we've done it already.

I can't see people doing much with horizon walkers other than build horizon trippers.

elocator could be fun, as could psion uncarnate, but again, I think variety might be a problem.


On a side note, assuming that the 10 levels of the SI are taken, how many classes would be considered to much dipping around? 2? 10?

entirely up to the judge. most will say if they're against dipping and if so, what numerically constitutes dipping in their eyes.

[Amidus Drexel]

Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, and Duelist could be done, but they'd be on the weak side even for Iron Chef

That leaves Psion Uncarnate, Psionic Fist, Blackguard, and Horizon Walker. None of those really sound like exciting ingredients, but I can't really think of reasons to rule them out either.

Well, all three of those are strictly better than this one. :smalltongue:

Psion Uncarnate is fairly interesting, although I'll agree that the other three are pretty lackluster.

Hrm... I've been tempted to jump in for one of these, but when I've got the time (like now, for instance) the ingredients have been pretty horrible or hard to work with.

[The Viscount]

one reason to rule out blackguard is that we've done it already.

I can't see people doing much with horizon walkers other than build horizon trippers.

elocator could be fun, as could psion uncarnate, but again, I think variety might be a problem.


We have actually not done Blackguard. I'd be down to do a blackguard round.

[Kazyan]

Submitted, and satisfied with it (though I'll probably find some typos during the re-proofread). I'm hoping for the upper half of the scores instead of middle-of-the-road.

[Deadline]

Can we have an SRD ingredient soon? I really want to join one of these, but the only splatbook I have is Complete Adventurer

It's also worth noting that having the ingredient be SRD, does not restrict the chefs to only using the SRD for their dishes. So you would still be at a disadvantage. Still, everyone likes an underdog!

[Immabozo]

on a completely separate note, or theme of SI, I'd love the see a template challenge, or even a mix of template/class (like lychanthrope/spell caster, or something like it) or some kind of odd mix (like half dragon sorcerer, although that one is perfect fluff wise)

[Venger]

We have actually not done Blackguard. I'd be down to do a blackguard round.

well, I'll be. I see it so often here, I thought that it was an SI at one time or another. my apologies, draz.

in that case, I'd be down for blackguard. I love it, but it sucks.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Spiffy new avatar, Chairman. :smallcool:

It is pretty damned awesome, isn't it?

Next ingrdient has already been picked - and I can promise easy(ier) access than this round.

[Vaz]

It is pretty damned awesome, isn't it?

Next ingrdient has already been picked - and I can promise easy(ier) access than this round.

SLIME LORDDDD

I'll never get Slime Lord, will I?

I've just had a stroke of genius! No, Albert Einstein's corpse has not turned into a randy zombie, but it's close enough. It may just work... I think I might be competing with this 'un.

[Venger]

It is pretty damned awesome, isn't it?

Next ingrdient has already been picked - and I can promise easy(ier) access than this round.

what does it say about cipher adept that I'm more interested in figuring out what the next SI is than in building for this one? :smalltongue:

[Razanir]

Responses

So maybe not quite like I said. I had no clue about many of them being vetoed for one reason or another. It still stands, though, that an SRD round every now and then would be nice for those of us without copious amounts of splatbooks. Duelist, Blackguard, Uncarnate and Psionic Fist all sound interesting.

@Deadline. I completely realize that I'd be at a disadvantage by being limited to the SRD. I just want a chance to actually enter one of these. If anything, I'd probably go for Style/Elegance points for creative use of SRD.

[Immabozo]

@Deadline. I completely realize that I'd be at a disadvantage by being limited to the SRD. I just want a chance to actually enter one of these. If anything, I'd probably go for Style/Elegance points for creative use of SRD.

Judges wont know that you are limited, on account of anonymity, so I doubt you will score bonus points

[Razanir]

Judges wont know that you are limited, on account of anonymity, so I doubt you will score bonus points

True... So yeah. I'd be down for a Blackguard round in the near future. I actually already have an idea.

[Haluesen]

I admit Blackguard may be interesting at some time. It is a class I have always had a hard time really wrapping my mind around, since it seems so paladin-like to me. So it would be a challenge at least. :smallbiggrin:

[Kreuz]

Second build is done until class levels, feats and most skills points and most of the fluff... now I have to sit down and write it.

I have to say that this has been interesting. When making a character, one has a huge range of possibilities, but this challenge gives you a chasis that has to be the foundation of your character. It's most enjoyable, indeed.

[thethird]

What I find hard in doing two builds is keeping them different and using all the SI features

[MilesTiden]

What I find hard in doing two builds is keeping them different and using all the SI features

Yeah, basically this. :smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

I have two basic ideas for builds - one is trying it's hardest to be an effective build, and the other is just so off the wall I'm honestly not sure if it's an effective build or not. If I get the chance for formatting etc. I will submit one...both if by some fluke I end up with a bunch more spare time on my hands than I currently expect to have.

[FyreByrd]

Ugh, Really wanted to do something for this one, but it's just not happening, so I'm out, the one idea I did have just didn't work, either legally, or with any kind of elegance, or power.

[OMG PONIES]

Damn you, alignment restrictions! ONE BLASTED STEP ruins what would have been a most excellent combination.

[Kreuz]

I think that many have thought about something that I also thought and then noticed that it isn't as easy as they thought... just as I thought.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Damn you, alignment restrictions! ONE BLASTED STEP ruins what would have been a most excellent combination.

I know what you mean. When I saw it, I thought "okay, Neutral shouldn't be too hard". Until I realised that it didn't say "Any Neutral" - it said "Neutral". Right then I knew that I must have it.

[thethird]

Well I cannot work on my second build 8th idea at the moment... because to make it work I need too many stuff and it ends not using several parts of the S.I. :smallfrown:

9 is the lucky number, I hope.

[Macabaret]

I know what you mean. When I saw it, I thought "okay, Neutral shouldn't be too hard". Until I realised that it didn't say "Any Neutral" - it said "Neutral". Right then I knew that I must have it.

Did anyone else notice the line of fluff concerning the current SI that reads:

The Transcendent Order is strongest on Elysium, the plane of harmonious good.

Why are the Neutral hippie-freaks hanging out on a plane of harmonious good?

[Kreuz]

Noticed it. I was curious about it, and found out that Elysium has a penalty of -2 in mental abilities for any non-good character... so it makes even less sense. They are suppossed to be in Amoria, the higher plane of Elysium...

But if you think about it... that may be why the Cipher Adepts are wanderers. They can't stay in Elysium.

[Immabozo]

Noticed it. I was curious about it, and found out that Elysium has a penalty of -2 in mental abilities for any non-good character... so it makes even less sense. They are suppossed to be in Amoria, the higher plane of Elysium...

But if you think about it... that may be why the Cipher Adepts are wanderers. They can't stay in Elysium.

Mat Damon needs to get to Elysium.

[The Viscount]

Damn you, alignment restrictions! ONE BLASTED STEP ruins what would have been a most excellent combination.
I similarly found myself significantly stymied by this class. At first I saw it and thought, "Ok, neutral. I can deal with that." It's turned out to be surprisingly restrictive, though.


Why are the Neutral hippie-freaks hanging out on a plane of harmonious good?
Anything is possible with poor writing.

[Dumbledore lives]

Why does it ask for 10 ranks in listen when it's not even a damn class skill?

[Immabozo]

Why does it ask for 10 ranks in listen when it's not even a damn class skill?


Anything is possible with poor writing.

'nuff said

[Kreuz]

Maybe it has met Navi...

[thethird]

So yea, 9 was the lucky number, and I succeeded on building something with it.

[Vaz]

Ugh, Really wanted to do something for this one, but it's just not happening, so I'm out, the one idea I did have just didn't work, either legally, or with any kind of elegance, or power.

Would you like to judge? After the recent batch of 20+ entrants, we need to try and get at least more judges than entrants. To help with that, I'm thinking of only entering one; although I've got a new idea, that I'm unsure on how to get to work.

Edit; Urgh, it doesn't. 7th level entry is horrible when you're wanting to use the class to qualify for something else that gets bonuses at 4th level.

[Mishkov]

Why does it ask for 10 ranks in listen when it's not even a damn class skill?

Honestly the skills as requirements are the thing that stands out to me the most about this class. These are not skills it advances or really synergizes well with even yet we are required to have 10 ranks in LISTEN to get in. What?

I have a build I'm cooking up, we'll see how it comes together though...

[Draz74]

well, I'll be. I see it so often here, I thought that it was an SI at one time or another. my apologies, draz.

in that case, I'd be down for blackguard. I love it, but it sucks.

It's possible that it was a Secret Ingredient at brilliantgameologists before Iron Chef came to this Forum. I didn't follow the contests over there.

[The Viscount]

Honestly the skills as requirements are the thing that stands out to me the most about this class. These are not skills it advances or really synergizes well with even yet we are required to have 10 ranks in LISTEN to get in. What?

I have a build I'm cooking up, we'll see how it comes together though...

You want silly skill prereqs? Unseen Seer requires 4 ranks in spellcraft (ok, normal), 4 ranks in sense motive (a bit hard to get, but ok), and 8 ranks in hide, spot, and search. SEARCH. Who does that? If I had entered that with something that wasn't and Int-based Human Savant when building Rashid for Urban Soul, I'd have screamed.

[FyreByrd]

Would you like to judge? After the recent batch of 20+ entrants, we need to try and get at least more judges than entrants. To help with that, I'm thinking of only entering one....


I'll say what I said last time...if I have time I'll certainly judge...I've tried writing criteria for judging about three times, over the last few competitions. If you see a set of criteria come about in the next few days, I'll probably judge, if you don't see it I probably won't!

[Hecuba]

Withdrawing from cooking. I keep ending up with the problem of the incidental goodies I pick up to facilitate the SI stuff being a better option that actually using the Secret Ingredient's ability.

[Razanir]

Question for if I join future contests: Are 3.0 books without 3.5 versions allowed? Specifically, can contestants use Savage Species?

[Thurbane]

Question for if I join future contests: Are 3.0 books without 3.5 versions allowed? Specifically, can contestants use Savage Species?
Yep, anything from an official 3.0 source is allowed, assuming there isn't an official 3.5 reprint or update, in which case you must use the 3.5 version.

[Mithril Leaf]

Since I'm judging I suppose I may as well post my criteria. Keep in mind, I tend to like things strong.


Originality:

Nothing new to anyone, old common tricks.
Nothing new to me, obscure tricks.
Something generally new, rehashed tricks.
Something that only uses existing suggestions in a general sense, new material.
Treading totally new ground, nothing seen before.

Power:

Pathetically weak compared to the general level of contest builds.
Weaker than the average contest build.
Solidly middle of the road, as far as the average build for the given contest goes.
A bit stronger than the average, may have a big gun or two.
Unexpectedly strong, sets the bar for other builds.

Elegance:

Very little cohesion to the build, boring.
Approaching mediocre, something that wouldn't raise too many eyebrows in a normal game.
Run of the mill, what you'd expect a typical experienced D&D player to make.
Better than average, what you can expect from a well made Playground build.
A thing of beauty, don't expect to get this if you don't have some amazing meshes.

Use of Secret Ingredient:

Technically has the ingredient. focuses on rest of build.
Uses a skill or ability from the secret ingredient as a qualifier or to augment an outside ability.
Uses an ability or skill from the secret ingredient, to some effect.
Uses abilties or skills from the secret ingredient mainly, has some outside help.
The secret ingredient is the main portion of the build, everything else is only to enhance it.

[The Viscount]

Be careful with Savage Species. It has some rather odd things in it, and there are different, better savage progressions introduced since. That being said, it's a cool little book that I used just last competition. I really like Scaled Horror.

Look at all the judges we get! Thanks a bunch, people.
Expecting power in this round? Oh dear.

[Razanir]

Be careful with Savage Species. It has some rather odd things in it, and there are different, better savage progressions introduced since. That being said, it's a cool little book that I used just last competition. I really like Scaled Horror.

I was actually looking at the anthropomorphic animals... I'll take +6 Wis, +0 LA

[Immabozo]

I was actually looking at the anthropomorphic animals... I'll take +6 Wis, +0 LA

An old build was looking at similar, but I realized that build over shadowed the SI and scrapped it.

I'm curious, how are the "small anthropomorphs loose their 1 RHD when they take class levels" handled? How does that work? At level 2 you suddenly get to level up and then re-level level 1?

[Mithril Leaf]

An old build was looking at similar, but I realized that build over shadowed the SI and scrapped it.

I'm curious, how are the "small anthropomorphs loose their 1 RHD when they take class levels" handled? How does that work? At level 2 you suddenly get to level up and then re-level level 1?

You start with a class level instead of a RHD if you have are a PC. If it's an NPC you can have them just keep RHD.

[Piggy Knowles]

Submitted. It all ended up coming together in the end, although it was touch and go for a while.

[Kreuz]

I am on the 3rd attempt, and I can't come up with something really original... just variations and derivations of something else...

[Kazyan]

I can't help but think my use of the secret ingredient is marginal and way overshadowed, but whatever. I like the build.

[thethird]

I have a google doc where I save neat tricks and ideas I find in case there's ever a secret ingredient that could use them...

Nah after working a little with it I will post it after the reveal. I think it is fairly powerful.

[boldfont]

Count me in! Sure the secret ingredient is the culinary equivalent of an especially bland turnip, but if we didn't have the cipher adept the other classes would be so good in contrast. Right? Sometimes one needs to eat paste but appreciating filer minion.

[thethird]

One question, it is not relevant to my build atm, but might be important at a later point/contest.

In the case of using 3.0 material, that is not updated to 3.5, do we assume that the rules work as updated (classes that would give intuit direction, would instead survival)? Or if it is not clear (something referencing the use it had in 3.0) we give different readings/options to work around it?

[Kreuz]

Just learned the hard way that Sword and Fist got updated into Complete Warrior...

[thethird]

Not all of it, several prcs and feats did though

[Venger]

One question, it is not relevant to my build atm, but might be important at a later point/contest.

In the case of using 3.0 material, that is not updated to 3.5, do we assume that the rules work as updated (classes that would give intuit direction, would instead survival)? Or if it is not clear (something referencing the use it had in 3.0) we give different readings/options to work around it?

intuit direction/wilderness lore = survival
innuendo = bluff
pick pocket = sleight of hand
scry = nothing

think that's all of 'em

but the answer to your question is yes.

[Vaz]

Just learned the hard way that Sword and Fist got updated into Complete Warrior...
Bear in mind that Power Lunge was updated/reprinted in Ghostwalk, of all places. IIRC, however, it's the exact same.

[Razanir]

intuit direction/wilderness lore = survival
innuendo = bluff
pick pocket = sleight of hand
scry = nothing

think that's all of 'em

but the answer to your question is yes.

Savage Species at least has Bluff

And in general, how do judges feel about sacrificing levels of the SI for dips that accentuate the SI?

[Venger]

Savage Species at least has Bluff

And in general, how do judges feel about sacrificing levels of the SI for dips that accentuate the SI?

Savage species is 3.0. Innuendo was not the old name for bluff, but was a separate skill that only conveyed the "communicate/interpret a hidden message" use of the skill. Bluff still existed in 3.0 and let you do all the normal stuff bluff lets you do in 3.5 minus send coded messages.

Historically, a few dishes have done well despite not finishing the SI (you can check ponies' spreadsheet to see which ones) but lately (within the last year or two) not taking all the SI has become less and less common and chefs are no longer scored well fr not using all the SI.

[Kreuz]

The thing is, there are feats in the 3.0 books that don't appear in posterior books (as far as I have been able to check), even in those that are basically spiritual successors in 3.5, like Complete Warrior to Sword and Fist, or Complete Divine to Defenders of the Faith. In those cases, I assume that those feats no longer apply to 3.5?

[Venger]

The thing is, there are feats in the 3.0 books that don't appear in posterior books (as far as I have been able to check), even in those that are basically spiritual successors in 3.5, like Complete Warrior to Sword and Fist, or Complete Divine to Defenders of the Faith. In those cases, I assume that those feats no longer apply to 3.5?

in these cases, PM the chairman to get his ruling (so as to preserve anonymity)

[Kreuz]

in these cases, PM the chairman to get his ruling (so as to preserve anonymity)

Will do, thanks.

[The Viscount]

And the build is in! My goodness, that took a lot out of me. I think this is the earliest I've submitted. Now to sit back and watch. Good luck to the other chefs. Working with this ingredient is like making boot soup.

[Razanir]

Historically, a few dishes have done well despite not finishing the SI (you can check ponies' spreadsheet to see which ones) but lately (within the last year or two) not taking all the SI has become less and less common and chefs are no longer scored well fr not using all the SI.

But what if you took a Zinc-Saucier-like approach, where you used dips to condense the SI and provide more room for an interesting base to build on?

[thethird]

Then you don't need the SI, do you? And you are not using the SI you are using something similar and better... so that doesn't say a lot of your cooking skills. Of course you can use fresh pasta and raw tomatoes to make the best macaroni ever, but here you will be using the stuff that comes in a can and making it good.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here is my take on the whole "finish the SI or not" issue.

Reading through the old competitions, it used to be that the winning builds would find a few things in the SI that they would really focus on, and work on that. They might get a few penalties for not finishing the SI, but they tended to do alright anyhow.

As Venger said, in the past year or so, more and more focus seems to have been shifted on the UoSI category. I guess in some ways it's the easiest metric to score for judges - here's a list of the SI's abilities. Are they all being used? I know that when I've judged, that's more or less what I do.

The net result has been... interesting. Builds that leave the SI early have become rarer and rarer. They still occur, but usually at most one or two a contest, and only for a level or so. And a lot of the contest has become a challenge to use every single part of the animal, so to speak, rather than focusing heavily on a few components.

I think we've seen a lot of cool builds that we wouldn't have as a result, and we see people really trying to optimize the lesser known abilities, rather than only focusing on the "cool" ones. On the other hand, we miss out on builds like Akal Saris' Entropomancer build, which dipped out after five levels but used those five levels very, very well (and was absolutely a build that you could pick up and play without any real modifications). So I guess it's not really a net loss or gain, just different?

One downside that I have seen, though, is a tendency to "leave things on the plate" that aren't being used. In other words, builds will take levels that don't do anything for them simply because they don't want to get dinged in UoSI, but then they don't do anything with what they have. Personally, if the ingredient is lake trout and you're not doing anything with the fins, I don't want to see you leave them on the plate just so that you can claim that you've used the whole ingredient. My philosophy is to at least try to do something interesting with them, or to not bother taking the levels in the first place.

But take this with a grain of salt - you'll pretty much always get at least a small ding for not finishing the SI, and this was even true back in the days of Entropomancer when only one build actually took all ten levels of the SI, and two thirds of the builds only took five levels. So be sure it's worth it either way, and that you're making up the difference in other categories.

[Vaz]

It would certainly be interesting to see how the Entropomancer build would have faired in today's judging.

Only 5 levels used, very poor spellcasting, 7 total bonus feats from Elder Evils and Flaws, Item Dependant power, known power from stacking save debuffs... there's a -1 at least for originality, a possible -2 or 3 for elegance, -1 for UoSI. Assuming above average power (for the saves) that's an 11/20.

We have had several very high scoring rounds though recently.

[Kazyan]

Come to think of it, if most of the Talon of Taimat entries had left off that final level when they weren't doing anything with Dominate Dragon...I probably would have dinged them, when I shouldn't have. Judging is a learning process, too...

Next time I judge, I'll revise the criteria for UotSI. Not using the last few levels is effectively the same as not taking them, isn't it? It's worse, actually--you're setting a few valuable levels on fire, and I've never cared for anything cooked to "well-done".

[Piggy Knowles]

Come to think of it, if most of the Talon of Taimat entries had left off that final level when they weren't doing anything with Dominate Dragon...I probably would have dinged them, when I shouldn't have. Judging is a learning process, too...

Next time I judge, I'll revise the criteria for UotSI. Not using the last few levels is effectively the same as not taking them, isn't it? It's worse, actually--you're setting a few valuable levels on fire, and I've never cared for anything cooked to "well-done".

Yeah, I think I might try to do something similar the next time I judge.

[Kreuz]

I thought we were suppossed to take the 10 levels...? Now this is interesting information...

[Piggy Knowles]

I thought we were suppossed to take the 10 levels...? Now this is interesting information...

You're not "supposed" to do anything but use the SI. Using all of it will certainly score higher than using some of it, though, especially if you use it well.

[Razanir]

Then you don't need the SI, do you? And you are not using the SI you are using something similar and better... so that doesn't say a lot of your cooking skills. Of course you can use fresh pasta and raw tomatoes to make the best macaroni ever, but here you will be using the stuff that comes in a can and making it good.

No, what I'm referring to would be like taking your box of Kraft and adding extra ingredients to make it better.

Suppose a PrC ends with a few dead levels, like only taking Fighter 3 to get to Fighter 4. What if you took levels in other classes that providing abilities that enhance the SI more than the dead levels would?

[Vaz]

If we're using food analogies, if you have a Full English Breakfast, and then take only the bacon and sausage out of it, and wrap the bacon around the sausage to make Pigs-in-blankets, and add it to a Sunday Roast, you've not used the Full English Breakfast.

It might use that lovely juicy bit of the Full English Breakfast to make a lovely Sunday Roast, but if you took the potatoes out of the Sunday Roast and make Sautee'd Potatoes, and then added them to the Full English Breakfast, you've enhanced the Full English.

That's my take on it, however.

[thethird]

I doubt that will ever be the case, not many PrCs end without class features, yeah, some capstones are terrible, but still.

If you scrape them, then you aren't (in my opinion) using as well the secret ingredient, at least comparatively to a build that uses all the class features, even if you end being more powerful.

Of course the point is balance, UoSI is not the only score, and you will probably do good.

For the matter when cooking I go with UoSI > Power > Elegance > Originality.

Incidentally it was something that I was considering, in this current Iron Chef the Secret ingredient capstone is a bit hard to use (in my opinion it is really, really bad) and using another class might have been better. But, after considering scraping that, I also considered scraping most levels of the SI. And yes, I ended discarding all the SI except for a class feature. Then I decided to look at it from another angle, and started working around the SI trying to make it work.

It is, I think, similar to the past contest, most entries where like: "you can dominate dragons lol" no need to think further. The entries that considered the applications of the capstone (which was a pretty good one) scored better than the others.

[Kreuz]

Build #2 and Build #3 just had a baby, Build #4. Build #1 is the godfather.

Is it this intense in every IC?

[Vaz]

Be careful about using too many similar things; i.e Class A 5/Class B 3/Class C 2/SI 10 could be good, but if you like Class B 3/Class C 2 combination, then reusing it in a second build is risking getting pinged for originality. The judging is anonymous, in the hope that there is no prejudice or voting for friends, etc, so the judges will not know that you might have only been you with 4 builds that enter the same stub.

As for intense, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but if you mean finding new combinations through book diving and then getting ratty that including it will mean redoing your skills for the millionth time, then yes.

Every.

Damn.

Time.


:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

[Kreuz]

Be careful about using too many similar things; i.e Class A 5/Class B 3/Class C 2/SI 10 could be good, but if you like Class B 3/Class C 2 combination, then reusing it in a second build is risking getting pinged for originality. The judging is anonymous, in the hope that there is no prejudice or voting for friends, etc, so the judges will not know that you might have only been you with 4 builds that enter the same stub.

As for intense, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but if you mean finding new combinations through book diving and then getting ratty that including it will mean redoing your skills for the millionth time, then yes.

Every.

Damn.

Time.


:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Indeed... the things I have seen...

Anyway, I am only going to submit one build... the first was tidy, the second one was tricky, the third one was brawny... and now I have a 4th one. If this one comes out better, this might be the one I submit.