Most useless PrC?

[Invader]

I think my vote had to be Reforged. 3 levels to give up the only thing that makes your base class really good and you get basically nothing in return.

Is there anything that can top it for being awful?

[Scow2]

I think my vote had to be Reforged. 3 levels to give up the only thing that makes your base class really good and you get basically nothing in return.

Is there anything that can top it for being awful?Ehh... that third level's a killer, but grabbing only two Reforged levels works very well. I think you keep your immunities and greater healing options.

I'm thinking something from the original DMG might be bad such as the Dwarven Defender or Shadowdancer, but there's probably a worse something in a splatbook somewhere.

[Invader]

Ehh... that third level's a killer, but grabbing only two Reforged levels works very well. I think you keep your immunities and greater healing options.

I'm thinking something from the original DMG might be bad such as the Dwarven Defender or Shadowdancer, but there's probably a worse something in a splatbook somewhere.

The first couple couple levels net you a few skill increases and the ability to get the full benefit of magical healing.

[Rubik]

About the only thing worse than taking the first 9 levels of metamind for a manifester is taking non-manifesting classes. Heck, even they would be better, assuming you don't want psionics for more than a few minor but still potent magical effects, such as the Force Screen power, Hammer, and Linked Synchronicity. The 10th level is good, but you lose so much getting up to it that it's not even really worth it by then.

When a psionic manifesting PrC is worse than taking non-manifesting classes, you know it's bad.

[Nettlekid]

About the only thing worse than taking the first 9 levels of metamind for a manifester is taking non-manifesting classes. Heck, even they would be better, assuming you don't want psionics for more than a few minor but still potent magical effects, such as the Force Screen power, Hammer, and Linked Synchronicity. The 10th level is good, but you lose so much getting up to it that it's not even really worth it by then.

When a psionic manifesting PrC is worse than taking non-manifesting classes, you know it's bad.

There's a pretty nice fix for the Metamind though in the 3rd-party-but-written-by-the-guy-who-wrote-the-XPH-book Hyperconscious, where you only lose three levels right at the end, in exchange for selecting a few powers you'll never be able to use again. Not too bad.

My vote for worst PrC is the Lifedrinker, from BoVD. It's designed to be supporting a caster by providing free metamagic boosts, but is the worst possible setup for a caster. For one, you need to be a Vampire. Which means a massive LA, which casters hate. Second, you need to drain blood or deal negative levels to fuel your abilities, which means getting up close and/or grappling, which casters aren't going to want to do (both getting into melee and wasting those rounds). And thirdly, most importantly, IT DOESN'T PROGRESS CASTING. A caster-based class that requires a +8 LA and doesn't give you casting. You could have about two levels of casting classes pre-Epic. Worst PrC I can think of, which is a pity because it's a pretty cool idea.

[Humble Master]

Risen Martyr is pretty bad. Once you take the class you can't advance any other class. Also at 10th level you get the worst ability ever:

Final Ascension: When a 10th-level risen martyr has earned enough experience points to gain his next level, his perfected, spiritual body is taken whole into the upper planes.

[Rakoa]

Final Ascension: When a 10th-level risen martyr has earned enough experience points to gain his next level, his perfected, spiritual body is taken whole into the upper planes.

So...your character dies spectacularly?

[CyberThread]

Risen Martyr is pretty bad. Once you take the class you can't advance any other class. Also at 10th level you get the worst ability ever:

Final Ascension: When a 10th-level risen martyr has earned enough experience points to gain his next level, his perfected, spiritual body is taken whole into the upper planes.



You get to go to heaven, I don't see the downside of this. I want to level up 10 levels and earn my salvation.

[Humble Master]

So...your character dies spectacularly? Yup. 10th level ability is death.

Totally worth it for the other bonuses the class gives you though.


You get to go to heaven, I don't see the downside of this. I want to level up 10 levels and earn my salvation. You could also just, you know, use Plane Shift.

[CyberThread]

Sure..if you know..your not...magic...already?


Not everyone is a skilled cleric or wizard.

[ArqArturo]

Risen Martyr is pretty bad. Once you take the class you can't advance any other class. Also at 10th level you get the worst ability ever:

Final Ascension: When a 10th-level risen martyr has earned enough experience points to gain his next level, his perfected, spiritual body is taken whole into the upper planes.

It's not so bad... Sometimes... My paladin killed by a succubus, then risen as a ghoul, then had to make several will saves, plus roleplaying the :mitd: out of 'hey guess what? There's a fresh corpse, feeling hungry?' moments, when you take your first level of Risen Martyr, it's ok.

The worst PrC I can imagine, but only because of the prerequisites, is the Fochluchan lyrist, also because you lose any druidic ability progression, but, otherwise, it's not so bad... However, the Exemplar PrC is useless, veeery useless.

[Rubik]

The worst PrC I can imagine, but only because of the prerequisites, is the Fochluchan lyrist, also because you lose any druidic ability progression, but, otherwise, it's not so bad... However, the Exemplar PrC is useless, veeery useless.I haven't looked at the exemplar myself, but I do know it's the cornerstone of some insanely powerful (and a few really disgusting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238255)) builds.

[Humble Master]

Sure..if you know..your not...magic...already?


Not everyone is a skilled cleric or wizard. Getting a Cleric to cast Plane Shift costs 450 GP. Even a 1st level adventuring party could scrape together that much money.

[Karnith]

However, the Exemplar PrC is useless, veeery useless.
Nah, getting to take 10 on skill checks of your choosing is pretty nice, and you get a few other things. Thanks to some rules abuse, it's also has some of the best ways to use skills (turning any skill into Diplomancy, for one).

Besides, exemplars rock with nanobots (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29).

[ThermalSlapShot]

Yup. 10th level ability is death.

Totally worth it for the other bonuses the class gives you though.

You could also just, you know, use Plane Shift.

Buy a thought bottle and never make it to level 10?

Actually could you give the thought bottle to your next character and gain all that XP... Hmm I need to read up on it.

Anyways my vote is of course the Dwarven Defender. It just doesn't work though it is one of the best in fluff and in UA it tells you how to gain the PrC through roleplaying and in game.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I think I'm gonna have to give this to the Hospitaler, from Complete Divine. Risen Martyr sucks, but you could theoretically use it for something cool. Ditto for Lifedrinker.

The Hospitaler, on the other hand, is just a festering sore from which nothing good could possibly emerge. There is no way to fix it, there is nothing that is not boring in it's description, it is just a total waste of space.

First, the entry requirements are the Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack feats, with 5 ranks in Ride and Handle Animal. You also have to be able to cast 1st level divine spells and have a BAB of +5. Oh, and you have to be non-chaotic.

Secondly, the class gives you nothing that helps you in mounted combat. Sucks to be you.

Thirdly, this is a 10-level PrC with 7/10 spellcasting advancement and three class features. You get three fighter bonus feats, lay on hands (exactly as a Paladin), and remove disease 2/week (ditto). There is nothing at 10th level, if you were hoping against hope that there might have been a worthy capstone. A straight-classed, unoptimized Paladin is now coming over to kick dirt in your face and laugh at you.

Fourthly, you have a Code of Conduct. No, it's not the Paladin one. It's another one, that's quite probably worse than the Paladin one. It forbids you from committing chaotic acts, among other things. What's a chaotic act? That's for two-hundred pages of Internet arguments to decide, not me. Oh, yeah, and you have multiclass restrictions. Not that you care, because you want to get out of this class as soon as you can.

Fifthly, there is nothing, this class is just awful.

[Jormengand]

The Dragon Disciple in Pathfinder. The ability bonuses were reduced to +4 STR +2 CON +2 INT. Just take half-dragon and you have more spellcasting and higher ability scores, more natural armour, better and earlier flight... there is absolutely no reason why you want to take this class over just being a half-dragon.

(Even in 3.5, you still want to be taking the H-D over the DD. Also, DD disqualifies you from taking levels in epic DD due to the tenth level ability.)

[Invader]

I think I'm gonna have to give this to the Hospitaler, from Complete Divine. Risen Martyr sucks, but you could theoretically use it for something cool. Ditto for Lifedrinker.

The Hospitaler, on the other hand, is just a festering sore from which nothing good could possibly emerge. There is no way to fix it, there is nothing that is not boring in it's description, it is just a total waste of space.

First, the entry requirements are the Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack feats, with 5 ranks in Ride and Handle Animal. You also have to be able to cast 1st level divine spells and have a BAB of +5. Oh, and you have to be non-chaotic.

Secondly, the class gives you nothing that helps you in mounted combat. Sucks to be you.

Thirdly, this is a 10-level PrC with 7/10 spellcasting advancement and three class features. You get three fighter bonus feats, lay on hands (exactly as a Paladin), and remove disease 2/week (ditto). There is nothing at 10th level, if you were hoping against hope that there might have been a worthy capstone. A straight-classed, unoptimized Paladin is now coming over to kick dirt in your face and laugh at you.

Fourthly, you have a Code of Conduct. No, it's not the Paladin one. It's another one, that's quite probably worse than the Paladin one. It forbids you from committing chaotic acts, among other things. What's a chaotic act? That's for two-hundred pages of Internet arguments to decide, not me. Oh, yeah, and you have multiclass restrictions. Not that you care, because you want to get out of this class as soon as you can.

Fifthly, there is nothing, this class is just awful.

Any class that gives 7/10 caster plus a few features isn't that bad, def not good but by far from the worst.

[Karnith]

Any class that gives 7/10 caster plus a few features isn't that bad, def not good but by far from the worst.
Also, minus the whole Code of Conduct thing, I'm pretty sure that Shining Blade of Heironeous has the Hospitaler beat in terms of making your character worse. It's meant for paladins (probably?), and its only class features are 5/10 casting and pretending to own a magic weapon.

[Jormengand]

Any class that gives 7/10 caster plus a few features isn't that bad, def not good but by far from the worst.

You asked for the most useless, which is not the same thing - something with an equivalent which overshadows it in literally every way is by definition useless (Which is why I picked PF DD).

[CyberThread]

*puts out a stack of truenamer prc's* You suck becuase the system you are suppose to work with sucks


*shames the truenamer prc's *

[Jormengand]

*puts out a stack of truenamer prc's* You suck becuase the system you are suppose to work with sucks


*shames the truenamer prc's *

Truenamer works. Sure, you have to build it A-M-A-Z-I-N-G-L-Y, but it does work if you get it to the point where it can just spam its abilities until Kingdom come.

[Emmerask]

Getting a Cleric to cast Plane Shift costs 450 GP. Even a 1st level adventuring party could scrape together that much money.

Problem is that since you dont really belong there the god/gods/entities could just throw you out if you plan to stay there longer ^^

While being a martyrer will net you a perma stay pass most likely ^^

[Invader]

You asked for the most useless, which is not the same thing - something with an equivalent which overshadows it in literally every way is by definition useless (Which is why I picked PF DD).

Regardless it's not useless either, you get 7/10 casting a couple class features and a few feats. And far be it from me to bust out the dictionary but that's not even close to any definition of useless I've ever used :smallamused:

[Jormengand]

Regardless it's not useless either, you get 7/10 casting a couple class features and a few feats. And far be it from me to bust out the dictionary but that's not even close to any definition of useless I've ever used :smallamused:

Well, if there is no use for something it is useless. There is no reason to take DD. Ever. You just take a sorc 18 with half-dragon (Or even sorc 20 with half-dragon, in PF you actually lose the LA later on) rather than sorc 10 DD 10 and then you are objectively better.

[elonin]

I will vote against prc's that are taken against type. So saying that metamind for a non manifesting class.

I kind of like Exemplar. The problem is it's hard to find a place in most builds for it.

Can't remember the name of it but there is a prc that gives bonuses vs orcs. That is a lousy prc in my opinion.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Any class that gives 7/10 caster plus a few features isn't that bad, def not good but by far from the worst.

The class features suck, though, and you can lose them all very easily. Any given Paladin would be far better off just going straight-class and any given Cleric would be better off beating themselves in the head with their mace. As, Jormengand says, the criteria is not the worst PrC, merely the most useless.


Also, minus the whole Code of Conduct thing, I'm pretty sure that Shining Blade of Heironeous has the Hospitaler beat in terms of making your character worse. It's meant for paladins (probably?), and its only class features are 5/10 casting and pretending to own a magic weapon.

If you chop the SBoH in half into a five-level class, it's not bad. That's what I was thinking of when I mentioned that there was no way to "fix" the Hospitaler. SBoH does suck pretty badly, though, yes.

[Immabozo]

Read this thread as "Iron Chef source material"

[Emmerask]

Well, if there is no use for something it is useless. There is no reason to take DD. Ever. You just take a sorc 18 with half-dragon (Or even sorc 20 with half-dragon, in PF you actually lose the LA later on) rather than sorc 10 DD 10 and then you are objectively better.

But there is a use, it advances spellcasting 7/10 which is quite usefull...
its less usefull then 10/10 but that does not make something useless...

less useful then does not equal useless :smallwink:

Else you could argue that each and every prc is useless that does not allow you to become pun pun (ie everything is useless because you do not need a prc to become punpun ^^)

[ArqArturo]

The Streetfighter. Wow, that PrC is also a big bag of rotten right there.

And on a strange note, the Vigilante, with his 20 3rd level spells per day :p .

[Jormengand]

But there is a use, it advances spellcasting 7/10 which is quite usefull...
its less usefull then 10/10 but that does not make something useless...

less useful then does not equal useless :smallwink:

Else you could argue that each and every prc is useless that does not allow you to become pun pun (ie everything is useless because you do not need a prc to become punpun ^^)

Pun-pun has one major disadvantage: he ends up fighting a lot of these. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290253) Even within reason, the DD class is pointless.

[Karnith]

How about Reaping Mauler, the grappling class that makes you bad at grappling?

[hamishspence]

And on a strange note, the Vigilante, with his 20 3rd level spells per day :p .

That looks like a cut-and-paste error- moving the second digits across one row allows the Vigilante to cast the 4th level spells that they're supposed to get at high level.

[Chronos]

I have to nominate the Master Inquisitive, from Eberron Campaign Setting. The class's primary class feature is that you can talk to people. You have a list of contacts, that you can go visit and ask questions. Mind you, you still have to convince them to answer you (probably by paying them), and there's still no guarantee that they'll be honest or knowledgeable. On top of this, the class has six skill points per level, and a grand total of eight class skills (which don't even include any of the multiple-skill-skills like Craft or Profession). And just to add insult to injury, it has as a prerequisite a feat whose only benefit is that you're allowed to think about things you see.

This class is generally listed as "+1" in the "Tier system for PrCs" threads. Which I can only assume meant that someone was trolling JaronK and he never noticed it.

[ArqArturo]

That looks like a cut-and-paste error- moving the second digits across one row allows the Vigilante to cast the 4th level spells that they're supposed to get at high level.

Oh, I know, but even in this day an age, it's funny to point and laugh at this XD.

[nedz]

Why has no one mentioned Arcane Archer. The class which requires Arcane casting, gives class features which work with it, but doesn't advance casting.

And then there's the Shining Blade of Heironemous. Lose 5 levels of casting for a magic sword a few times a day.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Read this thread as "Iron Chef source material"

Remember where I said that I have some standards?:smallbiggrin:

Although I will admit that one or two of these have sat in my "Possible SI Bin" before...

[Rubik]

Why has no one mentioned Arcane Archer. The class which requires Arcane casting, gives class features which work with it, but doesn't advance casting.Because 2 levels can actually be a really awesome investment, allowing you to do insane tricks with arrows that nobody else can? The rest of the class can be replicated with a single spell, but that 2-level dip is pretty good, even for some lost caster levels.


And then there's the Shining Blade of Heironemous. Lose 5 levels of casting for a magic sword a few times a day.It's been brought up a time or two.

[Raineh Daze]

How about Reaping Mauler, the grappling class that makes you bad at grappling?

Gets my vote. Requires you to not be large, never really makes up for it, defeated by Freedom of Movement. :smallsigh:

[The Viscount]

Most of the "good" ones have already been mentioned, so I'll say a few of the other ones.

Ruathar does it for me. It's certainly not as bad as some of these other classes, but it's like a rice sandwich. Is it bad? No. Is it flavorful? No. Does it do anything? Full casting... for all of 3 levels. It's easy to enter, but nothing it gives is really all that interesting, and little is that good.

I must say Stonelord. It's very dull, but at least it's full BA.

Emancipated Spawn gives you +6 turn resistance and returns the racial and class features you lost when you became an undead. Yes this class could be superseded by simply adding on monster classes. The real kick er is that when you finish your ECL is previous class levels+monster ECL+3 from the three levels you wasted on this class. It does absolutely nothing but give you +6 turn resistance.

Sybil is an NPC class. It does some things, but it doesn't really seem like you're supposed to use it. It doesn't say that your enemies can't just choose to simply not answer your questions, though I suppose you could give your party really easy questions to buff them? It's also extremely difficult to enter.
As for Risen Martyr, for those who don't seem to think it's so bad, let me remind you that A: once you enter risen martyr you can only take risen martyr and B: that capstone removes you from play.

[Mr.Bookworm]

How about Reaping Mauler, the grappling class that makes you bad at grappling?

It's not bad in a low-magic campaign, although that's a fairly limited niche.


This class is generally listed as "+1" in the "Tier system for PrCs" threads. Which I can only assume meant that someone was trolling JaronK and he never noticed it.

I dunno if I'd put it as +1, but I certainly wouldn't say it's bad. You don't lose any skills, True Seeing is really nice, the other SLAs aren't bad, and you can use the contacts to get a reliable source of low-level magic items. Even if you don't do that, a reliable source of info is pretty handy in the type of games a MI is going to be in.


Ruathar does it for me. It's certainly not as bad as some of these other classes, but it's like a rice sandwich. Is it bad? No. Is it flavorful? No. Does it do anything? Full casting... for all of 3 levels. It's easy to enter, but nothing it gives is really all that interesting, and little is that good.

Ruathar actually shows up all over the place in various builds. It's used to fill levels and get skills, mostly. Not super-exciting, but really useful.

[Humble Master]

Soon the Zinc Saucier competition will illustrate just how useless Epic Infiltrator is.

[Emmerask]

I always saw the risen martyr as a prc for a very specialized intention.

A) you bartered your soul away with some devil at one point in your life, now since the end of your life is near you dont really want to end up in hell because of a mistake made several years ago (assume that the character is now of good alignment no matter what he was in the past)

Risen Martyr gives you the option to do that.

B) you want to make sure to be of service to your god in the afterlife, since you practically become a celestial you can ^^.
(this assumes that in death only celestial can actually serve while all other souls just enjoy their afterlife or are reborn at level 1)
I dont actually know if there is a rules support for what happens to a really dead character

And for those two instances Risen Martyr does what its supposed to do, granted its an extremely niche usefulness ^^

[nedz]

Ruathar actually shows up all over the place in various builds. It's used to fill levels and get skills, mostly. Not super-exciting, but really useful.

Yes, 6+ Skill points and full casting. It's only draw back is that it's three levels long. Ruathar gets a C+ from me.

[Vedhin]

I'd say Disciple of the Word. It mixes Monk with Truenamer, acquiring all the suck of both. The only really noteworthy abilities are at level 6, Stunning Fist attempt and DC 45 Truenaming check allows you to bypass DR/epic, and level 10, Stunning Fist and DC 50 Truespeak check to use Lesser Celerity.

It also explicitly does and does not advance flurry of blows.

[GreenSerpent]

Forsaker (Masters of the Wild). No magic items allowed.

[Rubik]

Forsaker (Masters of the Wild). No magic items allowed.It's even worse than Vow of Poverty, since the forsaker basically has to destroy magic items on sight, rather than giving occasional +5 vorpal longswords to orphans.

[Vedhin]

Forsaker (Masters of the Wild). No magic items allowed.

That's why you use Vow of Poverty. It works due to RAW not mentioning Supernatural abilities. For that matter, Incarnum might work too, I don't remember what meldshaping is classified as. And a VoP Forsaker can get the DR by sundering items your opponents have. Also gets DMGs thrown at you.

[Invader]

Forsaker (Masters of the Wild). No magic items allowed.

Ooh yeah that's pretty terrible, especially given the crappy festures you get.

[Karnith]

That's why you use Vow of Poverty.
So how do you deal with an enemy who can fly?

[Rubik]

So how do you deal with an enemy who can fly?You projectile-cry tears of frustrated rage at them.

[The Viscount]

I always saw the risen martyr as a prc for a very specialized intention.

A) you bartered your soul away with some devil at one point in your life, now since the end of your life is near you dont really want to end up in hell because of a mistake made several years ago (assume that the character is now of good alignment no matter what he was in the past)

If you sold your soul, I'm pretty sure said soul would be transported to the Nine Hells upon your death. If you were really good maybe you can luck out and play a Hellbred.


Forsaker (Masters of the Wild). No magic items allowed.
While this does seem initially bad, Forsaker does give you +1 to any ability for 10 levels straight and an SR that explicitly stacks with other SR. Also, Psionics are not banned. Not sure how another subsystem like Incarnum would interact. Also, VoP. The price isn't that steep if you've already paid it.

EDIT: Flurry of ninjas. Common misconception about Forsaker there. You don't have to destroy magic items. If you don't your DR stops functioning, but that's it.

[Invader]

That's why you use Vow of Poverty. It works due to RAW ot mentioning Supernatural abilities. For that matter, Incarnum might work too, I don't remember what meldshaping is classified as. And a VoP Forsaker can get the DR by sundering items your opponents have. Also gets DMGs thrown at you.

I could see forsaker, VoP, Psion working well enough, +10 to your primary stat over ten levels isn't the worse thing we've seen so far.

[Waker]

So how do you deal with an enemy who can fly?

Hurl insults?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Forsaker (Masters of the Wild). No magic items allowed.

More than that, you have to actively destroy magic items to get the full benefits of your Forsaker levels.

[Rubik]

More than that, you have to actively destroy magic items to get the full benefits of your Forsaker levels.*Party mage casts Magic Mouth on a bunch of rocks*

[Invader]

*Party mage casts Magic Mouth on a bunch of rocks*

1000gp per point of DR. That's just an awful feature, worse really than not being allowed to use magic items.

[Rubik]

1000gp per point of DR. That's just an awful feature, worse really than not being allowed to use magic items.That's where Bluff comes in. Convince him that giant mouthy rock is worth 100k and he'll be so pumped up he'll be dying to destroy it.

[Karnith]

1000gp per point of DR. That's just an awful feature, worse really than not being allowed to use magic items.
Actually, I believe that it's only 100 gp per point of DR, though it is per day, so it adds up pretty quick.

[erikun]

I am surprised that Green Star Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a) has not been mentioned yet. Yes, you are required to invest in a bunch of knowledge skills and 10,000 gp in order for the benefit of 5/10 spellcasting progression, no Constitution score, and being unable to be healed.


Oh, but that's not the worst I have to offer! I present to you my personal (least) favorite, the Rage Mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7). What does the Rage Mage do, you ask? Well, besides requiring Rage/Frenzy before entering, and being a 5/10 progression PrC that is actually intended for primary spellcasters...

You use your character level, instead of your spellcaster level, when casting spells during a spell rage. Yes, that's right, your Sorcerer 6/Barbarian 1/Rage Mage 3 can cast some of their spells as a 10th level spellcaster, as opposed to a Sorcerer 10 casting all their spells as a 10th level spellcaster. Wait what?

You get a +2 DC to some spells at 5th class level (only when raging) and a +4 DC to some spells at 10th level. Please note that a 10th level Rage Mage will be down 6 caster levels, at least, and so you're looking at being 3 spell levels behind your normal spellcaster. That DC bonus isn't a benefit, it's an attempt to just catch up...

Oh, I suppose I should mention the free quicken spell (only once when raging, which is only once per encounter) and the free Tenser's Transformation once per day. I suppose that can be good, although with those lost 6 caster levels, I could probably locate a spell or two - not to mention the extra spell slots! - to provide far more benefit than that.

[Akal Saris]

Read this thread as "Iron Chef source material"

Our worst fears have come true :P

[Vaz]

So how do you deal with an enemy who can fly?

You roll up your Ardent 10/Forsaker 10, and Linked Power Greater Metamorphosis into a 34HD Uber Creature.

[Vedhin]

So how do you deal with an enemy who can fly?

You use Psionics/Incarnum/Tome of Battle to fly after them/shoot them out of the sky. Also, to all the DR comments, I mentioned using sunder to smash opponents items. If you wreck them before you get them, you don't need to give them to orphans.

Also, I now want to see a VoP Totemist/Forsaker, just for laughs.


I am surprised that Green Star Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a) has not been mentioned yet. Yes, you are required to invest in a bunch of knowledge skills and 10,000 gp in order for the benefit of 5/10 spellcasting progression, no Constitution score, and being unable to be healed.

Well, that's only if you go all ten levels. Like the Reforged PrC, you're better off dropping out before the capstone. Also, It gives 15/10 Caster Level according to RAW.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Well, that's only if you go all ten levels. Like the Reforged PrC, you're better off dropping out before the capstone. Also, It gives 15/10 Caster Level according to RAW.

CL advancement does not equal spellcasting advancement.

[Vedhin]

CL advancement does not equal spellcasting advancement.

Where did I say it did? I said it gave 15/10 CL advancement, not 15/10 spellcasting advancement.

[Rubik]

CL advancement does not equal spellcasting advancement.It does once you hit epic.

[Vaz]

A Truenamer forsaker could work; just reforge the smashed item and give it to the target.

An Ardent can manifest the Psionic Magic Weapon equivalent, and augment it to make it a temporary magic weapon as well. Just pick up a half dozen sticks at the road side, and spend your days crafting them into clubs. Each day, make them into a +4 Magic Weapon, and destroy it.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Where did I say it did? I said it gave 15/10 CL advancement, not 15/10 spellcasting advancement.

Whoops, misread you. Sorry!

[Humble Master]

Pyrokinetisist is pretty bad. If your opponent is immune to fire they are immune to you.

[Nettlekid]

Pyrokinetisist is pretty bad. If your opponent is immune to fire they are immune to you.

Except for their level 9 Heat Death ability, which has no caveat about immune to fire. Most DMs will say "Don't be silly, you can't roast a Red Dragon" but RAW, you entirely can.

[Vaz]

At every even-numbered level, a Green Star adept gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.

...

A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level

Wizard 10/GSA 10

Wizard 10+GSA Advancement = 15.

Improved Caster Level = +GSA Class Level to other Class; e.g Wizard. Wizard Caster Level before Improved Caster Level = 15, and as you choose when to apply the most beneficial effects, you gain 15+GSA = 15+10 = 25.

Of course, there's rarely a point to that, as many spells have capped out their HD limits, and any spells of 8th or lower past that point have already been broken.

[Vedhin]

Except for their level 9 Heat Death ability, which has no caveat about immune to fire. Most DMs will say "Don't be silly, you can't roast a Red Dragon" but RAW, you entirely can.

I prefer killing fire elementals by setting them on fire myself. RAW, catching on fire does not do fire damage.

[ranagrande]

The Epic Mystic Theurge. Nothing else comes close.

[Vedhin]

The Epic Mystic Theurge. Nothing else comes close.

You still get spellcasting though. Even if it is an absolutely atrocious progression.

[Invader]

Actually, I believe that it's only 100 gp per point of DR, though it is per day, so it adds up pretty quick.

You're correct :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

DR isn't even very useful.

Hardness, however, is both cheap and amazing. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Epinephrine_Syn]

I dunno if I'd put it as +1, but I certainly wouldn't say it's bad. You don't lose any skills, True Seeing is really nice, the other SLAs aren't bad, and you can use the contacts to get a reliable source of low-level magic items. Even if you don't do that, a reliable source of info is pretty handy in the type of games a MI is going to be in.

The thing about the PrC tier lists, unlike the standard tier list, is you need to take it with a heavy grain of salt because those +/- tiers are based on 'logical entry'. For example, the Fochlucan Lyricist is often considered as terrible and not worth playing at all, and is thus a -2 tier. But that is because the 'logical entry' is Druid, and by trying to think of it as a classic theurge class. However, if you're playing in a game balanced around Tier Three (oft considered the most fair tier), and take a logical entry of, say, Bard 6/Lyric Traumaturge 1/Rogue 2/Druid 1, then sure you won't compete with a classical Druid, but even on your lowest point of lvl 10 you'll still be tier three, doing quite nicely compared to standard Bard, and only get better as it goes on. This build also has the benefit of letting you focus on the wonderful Bardic Music effects like a typical bard, because Fochlucan advances bard music fully.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm, the two that always stood out to me is Sword of Righteousness and Wonderworker, for similar reasons.

Both of them require you to take one of the crappiest feats that actually do something... least according to me. The whole +1 to a roll 1/day Luck Bonus feats. Plus taking one other Exalted feat (Not that there are that many good ones). For the Sword of Righteousness all you get is 3 more Exalted Feats (Gonna run out of good ones for a build real quick). For Wonderworker again, 3 Exalted Feats and +5 spell slots, as long as it's not your highest level.

Granted I could MAYBE see using Wonderworker as part of an Epic Progression so I can get more 8th level spells. But I could also use things like the Eunich Warlock for the same effect, for more levels and with better bonuses than Exalted Feats (And less bad feat tax).

But the Sword of Righteousness just... *shudder* I have never seen a good reason to take it. The only class I can think of that would have enough Exalted Feats available to it to make it useful would be Paladin. But generally if I'm building a Paladin to be an actual Paladin, and not some Sorcerer with Paladin spell access or the like... I want MORE paladin levels, not less. All their abilities pretty much are a function of the Paladin Level.

[Invader]

You use Psionics/Incarnum/Tome of Battle to fly after them/shoot for em out of the sky. Also, to all the DR comments, I mentioned using sunder to smash opponents items. If you wreck them before you get them, you don't need to give them to orphans.

Also, I now want to see a VoP Totemist/Forsaker, just for laughs.



Well, that's only if you go all ten levels. Like the Reforged PrC, you're better off dropping out before the capstone. Also, It gives 15/10 Caster Level according to RAW.

The first 2 levels of Reforged are pretty terrible as well. There's really no reason for any kind of dip.

[Vedhin]

The first 2 levels of Reforged are pretty terrible as well. There's really no reason for any kind of dip.

It's not really that good, but it was mentioned earlier in this thread, so it was fresh in my memory.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm with the guys who are saying to take the PrC Tier listings with a grain of salt - Drow Judicator, of all things, is called a +1 there.

Have you seen how terrible that thing is?

[Epinephrine_Syn]

I'm with the guys who are saying to take the PrC Tier listings with a grain of salt - Drow Judicator, of all things, is called a +1 there.

Have you seen how terrible that thing is?

Well if your 'logical entry' is a Fighter, the mere dipping a spellcasting class and gaining a couple levels of it, plus the extra abilities could bump you up to tier 4. It's obviously not meant to be for casters. :smalltongue:

[ArqArturo]

Pyrokinetisist is pretty bad. If your opponent is immune to fire they are immune to you.

Which is pretty much two thirds of all the Monster Manuals. Honestly, if I was gonna pick an element, it would be either force, or lightning.

Now that we're on the subject, the Elemental Savant is pretty bad, too, because of that problem.

[Flame of Anor]

I'm with the guys who are saying to take the PrC Tier listings with a grain of salt - Drow Judicator, of all things, is called a +1 there.

Have you seen how terrible that thing is?

I don't see the problem. Wouldn't it be appropriate for a terrible PrC to take you to a worse tier?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't see the problem. Wouldn't it be appropriate for a terrible PrC to take you to a worse tier?

No, that's the problem - it says that it pushes you up a tier if you take it.

[The Viscount]

The first 2 levels of Reforged are pretty terrible as well. There's really no reason for any kind of dip.

There is a use as alluded to before, but it requires some sketchy rules interpretation. First you take levels of warforged juggernaut until you get the immunity to healing. Then you dip 2 levels of reforged, which gives full benefit from healing. It's open to interpretation what this means. Most will likely take the conservative, saying that you still get nothing from healing. If they accept your cheesy niche use, this class becomes useful.

[NamelessNPC]

Fourthly, you have a Code of Conduct. No, it's not the Paladin one. It's another one, that's quite probably worse than the Paladin one. It forbids you from committing chaotic acts, among other things. What's a chaotic act? That's for two-hundred pages of Internet arguments to decide, not me.

Can I sig this? It's so beautiful

[TypoNinja]

It's not bad in a low-magic campaign, although that's a fairly limited niche.


Still terrible. Needs +5 BAB, as well as 5 ranks in Tumble and Escape Artist. There is no full BAB base class I know of that comes with those, so at 5th level when you have +5 BAB you can only have 4 ranks, or if you take a class with those class skills you don't get full BAB. So you get into it late.

It's first level power is improved grapple.

If I'm building a grappling character I want the ability to grapple WAY before I pick up my PrC. In fact I pretty much want it right away, its my first feat, otherwise I'm not a freaking grappler now am I?

Then its 2 unique abilities, the ones that let you choke out your pin, have a DC that scales to your.... Wisdom Modifier? Did you expect me to Monk my way into this class? Cause you know Monk gave me Improved Grapple for free anyway, why enter the class? Surely you meant Str, you know the ability that would synergize with grappling? Or at least Con, like every other physically keyed special ability ever?


Pure monk also gives me the ability to damage an opponent in a grapple with my unarmed strike damage. Get improved grapple sooner, and some of the PHB 2 feats let me do hilarious things like trade my stunning fist for the ability to light myself on fire while hugging you.

Holy crap, pure monk is better than this PrC, somebody check the temperature at Azmodeus' place.

[Nettlekid]

Still terrible. Needs +5 BAB, as well as 5 ranks in Tumble and Escape Artist. There is no full BAB base class I know of that comes with those, so at 5th level when you have +5 BAB you can only have 4 ranks, or if you take a class with those class skills you don't get full BAB. So you get into it late.


Not that I disagree about your analysis of the class, but Swashbuckler can qualify at minimum level. Just so you know.

[Tokiko Mima]

I would say Apostle of Peace, primarily because of it's trifecta of three feats, Vow of Poverty, Nonviolence and Peace. You actually end up hindering your entire party because they A) have to take your exalted alignment into consideration for anything they do in front of you, B) actively penalizes your party for for using anything that renders a foe helpless, stunned, or flat-footed, C) seems to suggest you are automatically and necessarily entitled to tell your friends what to do, D) plus everything bad about Vow of Poverty.

On the bright side, you could probably have someone Dark Chaos Shuffle those three feats off after you made it to 10th level, and then you'd have a fast advancing Ur-Priest-like spell progression PrC. You would just have to keep your nose clean and never commit an evil act. So, functionally I guess it's ok, but in practice? Not so much.

[Hyena]

Hellfire warlock, because you need to make so many sacrifices just to boost your damage a little.
"But Hyena" - you are probably thinking - "Can't one dip into binder negate the constitution loss?". Well, it can, but it defeats the purpose of the class, and therefore everyone vetoes it.
So, Hellfire warlock.

[TypoNinja]

Not that I disagree about your analysis of the class, but Swashbuckler can qualify at minimum level. Just so you know.

Ohh cool. I thought there might be one in some spalt book somewhere, but I couldn't think of any at the time.

Still a terrible option. Swashbucker into Reaping Mauler is just mountains of wasted potential.


Hellfire warlock, because you need to make so many sacrifices just to boost your damage a little.
"But Hyena" - you are probably thinking - "Can't one dip into binder negate the constitution loss?". Well, it can, but it defeats the purpose of the class, and therefore everyone vetoes it.
So, Hellfire warlock.

Free metamagic on your wands? Yes please.

On the other hand Intimidate 6 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks is a crap ton of skill points to pay for a class that gets 2+int.

[Emmerask]

If you sold your soul, I'm pretty sure said soul would be transported to the Nine Hells upon your death. If you were really good maybe you can luck out and play a Hellbred.


But you are transported as a whole to the celestial realm, it actually does not say that you die, you ascend (ie become an archon/eladrin/guardinal) now in the service of deity xyz.

Since you never actually died, hell has no claim over your soul :smallwink:

[ArqArturo]

But you are transported as a whole to the celestial realm, it actually does not say that you die, you ascend (ie become an archon/eladrin/guardinal) now in the service of deity xyz.

Since you never actually died, hell has no claim over your soul :smallwink:

Then Asmodeus calls forth the most vile of fiends the Nine Hells has to offer:

*Half-Fiendish Lawyers.

[The Viscount]

Ohh cool. I thought there might be one in some spalt book somewhere, but I couldn't think of any at the time.

Still a terrible option. Swashbucker into Reaping Mauler is just mountains of wasted potential.
On the subject of Reaping Mauler and wasted potential, you can actually enter Reaping Mauler without being Medium or smaller. You just need to take 3 levels of Leviathan Hunter, which isn't very good. But after that you're in, and can enjoy the benefits while being whatever size you want.That totally fixes the problem!


But you are transported as a whole to the celestial realm, it actually does not say that you die, you ascend (ie become an archon/eladrin/guardinal) now in the service of deity xyz.

Since you never actually died, hell has no claim over your soul :smallwink:

I wasn't clear the first time around. You're gone before you enter the class. Look at the prerequisites for Risen Martyr. One of them is you must die and not be returned to life. When you die, before you take your 0th level of risen martyr (yes, it has a 0th level), you will be transported to the Nine Hells. You can't screw Asmodeus out of this one.

[Vaz]

Then Asmodeus calls forth the most vile of fiends the Nine Hells has to offer:

*Half-Fiendish Lawyers.

Isn't that just Lawyers in general? I've yet to find a Lawyer that's not some spawn of the Nine Hells.

[Emmerask]

I wasn't clear the first time around. You're gone before you enter the class. Look at the prerequisites for Risen Martyr. One of them is you must die and not be returned to life. When you die, before you take your 0th level of risen martyr (yes, it has a 0th level), you will be transported to the Nine Hells. You can't screw Asmodeus out of this one.

Hm you are correct I jumped directly to the martyrdom and didnt see the you must die part^^

[Shining Wrath]

Acolyte of the Ego, which requires 6 levels of Truenamer to gain entry. And then improves Truenamer by giving you the equivalent of one moderately useful spell every other level.

[danzibr]

I think I'm gonna have to give this to the Hospitaler, from Complete Divine. Risen Martyr sucks, but you could theoretically use it for something cool. Ditto for Lifedrinker.

The Hospitaler, on the other hand, is just a festering sore from which nothing good could possibly emerge. There is no way to fix it, there is nothing that is not boring in it's description, it is just a total waste of space.

First, the entry requirements are the Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack feats, with 5 ranks in Ride and Handle Animal. You also have to be able to cast 1st level divine spells and have a BAB of +5. Oh, and you have to be non-chaotic.

Secondly, the class gives you nothing that helps you in mounted combat. Sucks to be you.

Thirdly, this is a 10-level PrC with 7/10 spellcasting advancement and three class features. You get three fighter bonus feats, lay on hands (exactly as a Paladin), and remove disease 2/week (ditto). There is nothing at 10th level, if you were hoping against hope that there might have been a worthy capstone. A straight-classed, unoptimized Paladin is now coming over to kick dirt in your face and laugh at you.

Fourthly, you have a Code of Conduct. No, it's not the Paladin one. It's another one, that's quite probably worse than the Paladin one. It forbids you from committing chaotic acts, among other things. What's a chaotic act? That's for two-hundred pages of Internet arguments to decide, not me. Oh, yeah, and you have multiclass restrictions. Not that you care, because you want to get out of this class as soon as you can.

Fifthly, there is nothing, this class is just awful.
I just can't imagine a Paladin (no UA variant anyway) doing that.

[Rubik]

I just can't imagine a Paladin (no UA variant anyway) doing that.I think "dazed pity" would be appropriate.

[Yogibear41]

The Streetfighter. Wow, that PrC is also a big bag of rotten right there.

And on a strange note, the Vigilante, with his 20 3rd level spells per day :p .

How does a vigilante have 20 3rd level spells per day?

[Karnith]

How does a vigilante have 20 3rd level spells per day?

That looks like a cut-and-paste error- moving the second digits across one row allows the Vigilante to cast the 4th level spells that they're supposed to get at high level.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, it's a formatting error; the values for a Vigilante's 4th-level spells were not properly spaced, so a Vigilante seems to 20 3rd-level spells per day at Vigilante 7, 31 at Vigilante 8, and so on, while never getting access to 4th-level spells.

[hamishspence]

Because the row for 4th level spells accidentally got shifted-

so instead of having a 2 in the 3rd level spell column and a 0 in the 4th level spell column, the table has a 20 in the 3rd level spell column, with the column for 4th level spells being blank.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

[kulosle]

So i didn't read everything but i search each page for what i would vote for and no one has said blighter. It literally only makes you worse. There is no upside. you go from being a powerful teir 1 druid to being probably tier 3. It's just horrible. I've never seen heard of a good reason to take blighter.

[Humble Master]

So i didn't read everything but i search each page for what i would vote for and no one has said blighter. It literally only makes you worse. There is no upside. you go from being a powerful teir 1 druid to being probably tier 3. It's just horrible. I've never seen heard of a good reason to take blighter. I must concur with Blighter being a horrid PrC. The only thing going for it is the fluff and roleplaying.

[ArqArturo]

Isn't that just Lawyers in general? I've yet to find a Lawyer that's not some spawn of the Nine Hells.

They're also aberrations, if you think about it.

[Scow2]

How about Reaping Mauler, the grappling class that makes you bad at grappling?


Why has no one mentioned Arcane Archer. The class which requires Arcane casting, gives class features which work with it, but doesn't advance casting.

And then there's the Shining Blade of Heironemous. Lose 5 levels of casting for a magic sword a few times a day.


Isn't that just Lawyers in general? I've yet to find a Lawyer that's not some spawn of the Nine Hells.
I have. There are a few, they don't last long, though. Most of them are fictional.

Anyway, Risen Martyr works if you're not too dependent on class features that don't synergize with the class, and you can't be raised from the dead normally. It beats being forced to re-roll because there are no 17th-or-higher level clerics in the campaign setting on hand (Max-level casters are NOT a given - The highest level non-deity character in Greyhawk is/was 14), and you got dusted by something that makes your body unrecoverable. And, when you reach level 10 in the class, you're freed of the "MUST MAX THE CLASS" restriction, and can leave the upper planes at any time.

It goes: "You're a righteous man in life who met an unfortunate end, and not even the greatest magics available could bring you back. But, the purity of your soul brought you back anew, and you continued your adventure, then ascended to the Heavens. You will come again in Glory, to judge the living and the dead get the gang back together and start kicking ass again - but this time, you're a Deathless, and because you applied through a class instead of Template, you get all the immunities that comes with (Similar to Undead, but still heal normally) without the LA that normally comes attached to that stuff. Just... hope you weren't a caster-type class."

[Humble Master]

Imagine an Undead lawyer :smalleek:

Also Thayan Knight is pretty bad. You get a lot of random bonuses to saves. Oh and for the capstone you get an awesome tattoo across your face that gives you a +4 on Intimidate checks. If that is the Thayan Knight at their best, why do the Red Wizards even bother?

[ArqArturo]

Imagine an Undead lawyer :smalleek:

Also Thayan Knight is pretty bad. You get a lot of random bonuses to saves. Oh and for the capstone you get an awesome tattoo across your face that gives you a +4 on Intimidate checks. If that is the Thayan Knight at their best, why do the Red Wizards even bother?

They did that PrC as a joke on fighters.

Bear warriors are also wonky, but they do get shapeshifting.

[Humble Master]

They did that PrC as a joke on fighters.

Bear warriors are also wonky, but they do get shapeshifting.
Bear Warrior is kind of like Fighter except that instead of getting feats they get the cruddy features Scent and +1 Rage/day. The only consolation for a Bear Warrior is that he knows he will always be better than the Fighter. Why?

Cuz' he can turn into a bear!

Oh and while in Dire Bear form he gets +20 Str which is pretty cool to.

[Khatoblepas]

Also Thayan Knight is pretty bad. You get a lot of random bonuses to saves. Oh and for the capstone you get an awesome tattoo across your face that gives you a +4 on Intimidate checks. If that is the Thayan Knight at their best, why do the Red Wizards even bother?

The Thayan Knight is for a Red Wizard's cohort Gnoll Frenzied Berserker to take a single level in, so that the wizard can snap his fingers and say "Cut it out, Howler." when the Berserker has destroyed all of his foes he couldn't be bothered to cast spells on in a blind frenzy.

And he will.

[Chronos]

Quoth Mr.Bookworm:

I dunno if I'd put it [Master Inquisitive] as +1, but I certainly wouldn't say it's bad. You don't lose any skills, True Seeing is really nice, the other SLAs aren't bad, and you can use the contacts to get a reliable source of low-level magic items. Even if you don't do that, a reliable source of info is pretty handy in the type of games a MI is going to be in.

You don't lose out on number of skill points, but again, their class skill list sucks. They just might actually have the shortest class skill list in the game. Even fighters have more class skills than Master Inquisitives, if you count the various Craft skills as separate.

You don't gain a reliable source of information. First of all, it's not particularly reliable, and second, you don't gain it, because a first-level commoner already has the ability to do the same thing.

And OK, the spell-like abilities can be useful. But if the one and only thing a class has going for it is a few uses of per-day SLAs, then why not just take a caster class?

On another note, Wonderworker isn't as bad as it's made out to be. A cleric 17 / Wonderworker 3 has as many or more spells of each level than a straight cleric 20, and two more feats (even counting the stupid Favored of the Heavens or whatever as a dead feat). OK, the wonderworker has a lower caster level, but you can fix that with Practiced Spellcaster, and still be a feat ahead. The only drawback is that four of your feats need to be Exalted. Granted, it's boring, and it's not nearly as big a power jump as some PrCs are, but it won't actually make you appreciably worse. And it gets even better if you're taking it on top of a maxed out casting class, like Apostle of Peace or something epic.

[TypoNinja]

Imagine an Undead lawyer :smalleek:


Mr Slant. Discworld. Its as terrifying as you can imagine.

[Tokiko Mima]

Hellfire warlock, because you need to make so many sacrifices just to boost your damage a little.
"But Hyena" - you are probably thinking - "Can't one dip into binder negate the constitution loss?". Well, it can, but it defeats the purpose of the class, and therefore everyone vetoes it.
So, Hellfire warlock.


Free metamagic on your wands? Yes please.

On the other hand Intimidate 6 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks is a crap ton of skill points to pay for a class that gets 2+int.

Well, keep in mind that Hellfire Warlock is a prestige class that focuses down eldritch blast damage like a lens. As well, you keep your normal eldritch blast/invocation progression, at the same time as you add hellfire damage as an option. In other words, like Iot7Vs you aren't losing much while you gain this. :smallamused:

Just a normal eldritch blast even with Hellfire is never going to be great of course, but when you work in something like eldritch chain, eldritch glaive or Eldritch Claw for example, you multiply that new source of damage. So that simple +6d6 of Hellfire can turn into the upwards of 15-24d6 damage on a single blast. And if you are crazy about novas, imagine a warlock with Quicken, Maximize and Empower SLA feat's expending all of those feats on a single nova - and the only resistance an enemy would get is being missed on a touch attack. Give a similarly feated 16th level warlock a hit from a wand of divine power and 10' reach of an ancient wyrm red dragon, and that CR 26 dragon is dead in one round if the warlock doesn't roll 1's on the series of 6 touch attacks vs. AC 2 he needs. :smallcool:

It's tough to do that without Hellfire Warlock, and that is the usefulness of the PrC. :smallsmile:

And again, I submit to you that a rod of bodily restoration is incredibly cheap, recharges daily and it solves the Naberius/Strongheart Vest DM banhammer debate completely. Just buy it! Please? :smalltongue:

[Amphetryon]

Also, minus the whole Code of Conduct thing, I'm pretty sure that Shining Blade of Heironeous has the Hospitaler beat in terms of making your character worse. It's meant for paladins (probably?), and its only class features are 5/10 casting and pretending to own a magic weapon.

Shining Blade of Heironeous is awful.

Divine Crusader is pretty bad, too. "I have a deal for you, son. In exchange for giving up better options, I'll let you replicate the more easily GP-duplicated aspects of the Favored Soul."

[TuggyNE]

Then Asmodeus calls forth the most vile of fiends the Nine Hells has to offer:

*Half-Fiendish Lawyers.

I was going to make a joke about how fiends can't have the Half-Fiend template applied, but I see that the template does not forbid it. :smallsigh:

Go home 3.5, you're drunk.

[navar100]

I am surprised that Green Star Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a) has not been mentioned yet. Yes, you are required to invest in a bunch of knowledge skills and 10,000 gp in order for the benefit of 5/10 spellcasting progression, no Constitution score, and being unable to be healed.


Oh, but that's not the worst I have to offer! I present to you my personal (least) favorite, the Rage Mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7). What does the Rage Mage do, you ask? Well, besides requiring Rage/Frenzy before entering, and being a 5/10 progression PrC that is actually intended for primary spellcasters...

You use your character level, instead of your spellcaster level, when casting spells during a spell rage. Yes, that's right, your Sorcerer 6/Barbarian 1/Rage Mage 3 can cast some of their spells as a 10th level spellcaster, as opposed to a Sorcerer 10 casting all their spells as a 10th level spellcaster. Wait what?

You get a +2 DC to some spells at 5th class level (only when raging) and a +4 DC to some spells at 10th level. Please note that a 10th level Rage Mage will be down 6 caster levels, at least, and so you're looking at being 3 spell levels behind your normal spellcaster. That DC bonus isn't a benefit, it's an attempt to just catch up...

Oh, I suppose I should mention the free quicken spell (only once when raging, which is only once per encounter) and the free Tenser's Transformation once per day. I suppose that can be good, although with those lost 6 caster levels, I could probably locate a spell or two - not to mention the extra spell slots! - to provide far more benefit than that.

The point of Rage Mage is to be a barbarian/spellcaster gish concept. Comparing it to a single class spellcaster is meaningless. Of course a single class spellcaster will be more powerful casting spells, but that's irrelevant. Going into Rage Mage is not about being the most powerful wizard in the world. It's about wanting to be a barbarian spellcaster, usually an oxymoronic concept. Some people really like playing a gish and don't give a Hoover a single class spellcaster gets to cast 9th level spells at level 20 while they can't. Yes, I know a few particular gish builds could.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Frenzied Berserker.

You get better... at being a walking TPK. Because Natural 1's happen, and no matter how many re-rolls you have, eventually that string of 1's is going to happen. Building in a weakness for your allies to exploit also means one your opponents can exploit, which is just a Legend Lore away from being known by any shmuck willing to pay a bard or a wiz/sorc.

The only class I can think of where you are actively a threat to your allies.

[Malroth]

Hellfire warlock, because you need to make so many sacrifices just to boost your damage a little.
"But Hyena" - you are probably thinking - "Can't one dip into binder negate the constitution loss?". Well, it can, but it defeats the purpose of the class, and therefore everyone vetoes it.
So, Hellfire warlock.

Take Obtain familliar to get a talking raven and Have it use Your UMD ranks to use a wand of lesser restoration and one other wand of your choice using its actions instead of your actions.

[Invader]

So i didn't read everything but i search each page for what i would vote for and no one has said blighter. It literally only makes you worse. There is no upside. you go from being a powerful teir 1 druid to being probably tier 3. It's just horrible. I've never seen heard of a good reason to take blighter.

To be fair just about every druid PrC makes you worse lol

[Humble Master]

To be fair just about every druid PrC makes you worse lolExcept for Planar Shepard which makes DMs cry.


Frenzied Berserker.

You get better... at being a walking TPK. Because Natural 1's happen, and no matter how many re-rolls you have, eventually that string of 1's is going to happen. Building in a weakness for your allies to exploit also means one your opponents can exploit, which is just a Legend Lore away from being known by any shmuck willing to pay a bard or a wiz/sorc.

The only class I can think of where you are actively a threat to your allies. You aren't that much of a threat to your allies. Sure you can run out of enemies but you're not going to fail enough Will saves to kill your entire party. Also it's not like your party won't try to stop you. A Wizard could just cast Charm Person on you and a Cleric could use Hold Person.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Except for Planar Shepard which makes DMs cry.

You aren't that much of a threat to your allies. Sure you can run out of enemies but you're not going to fail enough Will saves to kill your entire party. Also it's not like your party won't try to stop you. A Wizard could just cast Charm Person on you and a Cleric could use Hold Person.

Moonspeaker (RoE) is also pretty damned good.

[kulosle]

To be fair just about every druid PrC makes you worse lol

Yeah but they all do it by making you specialize in one thing or another. Master of many forms or forest warrior (if thats the name of the class) may make you weaker over all but they are making you better at something, a blighter is just worse than a druid in every single way. There will never be a reason to take blighter as part of your build. Which i think should be the prerequisite for the worst PrC, "No one would ever suggest you take it as part of any build."

[ArqArturo]

Well, the Arcane Heirophant ain't half bad; heck, it makes your animal companion smarter.

I think the Dwarven Defender has to take the 'awful PrC', right alongside the Heirophant, since you lose all spellcasting and Turn Undead progression.

[Roguenewb]

I don't know why people hate risen martyr so much. Your character was already dead. Think of it as ten extra levels.

I think the least useful class is probably one of those dopey ones like Purple Dragon Knight or whatever from CWar, so many classes that are just space filler. Introduce nothing new and just derp around for a couple levels costing feats and giving nothing at all.

[OracleofWuffing]

One that has stood out for me is The Watch detective, which is an attempt to make a non-magic skillmonkey built to solve crimes. On the plus side, you get a few bonuses to a few usable skills right off the bat, and bonuses to Knowledge(blah) will not hurt you. There... Is a bonus to disarming in there, should you find yourself fighting something that can be disarmed. You can also paint a drawing of a guy that committed a crime, providing you can find a witness to the crime (the witness does not need to have seen the criminal). It doesn't necessarily give you a bonus to anything, it's just a pretty picture.

On the minus side? You are saddled with a Code of Conduct, though it is not quite as debatable as a Paladin's. However, breaking said code of conduct loses all of your class abilities for six months, and Atonement will not help. You may make use of Divination spells, however, acting only upon said divinations to solve crimes breaks your code. There's also a Track feat tax, if that's something that concerns you.

In between, you get to search for secret doors as an elf (five levels in), you may ask the DM a yes or no question that the DM may or may not answer (and you cannot use this to gain information your character cannot know), you get to ignore the penalty for dealing nonlethal damage and eventually add your Int bonus to it, and three once-a-day spell abilities. Your capstone gets a +10 to a knowledge check once per day.

Overall, yes, there are things that can be used, but you're not being that useful.

[kulosle]

To be fair just about every druid PrC makes you worse lol

Yeah but they all do it by making you specialize in one thing or another. Master of many forms or forest warrior (if thats the name of the class) may make you weaker over all but they are making you better at something, a blighter is just worse than a druid in every single way. There will never be a reason to take blighter as part of your build. Which i think should be the prerequisite for the worst PrC, "No one would ever suggest you take it as part of any build."

[Roguenewb]

Yeah but they all do it by making you specialize in one thing or another. Master of many forms or forest warrior (if thats the name of the class) may make you weaker over all but they are making you better at something, a blighter is just worse than a druid in every single way. There will never be a reason to take blighter as part of your build. Which i think should be the prerequisite for the worst PrC, "No one would ever suggest you take it as part of any build."

Blighter is not great, but I will say this for it, it gets access to 7th and higher level spells ahead of time. It can still do the whole Wildshape tank up, and chuck spells while fighting in combat. Its by no means a great class, but I played a druid once who was dramatically out powering the tier 3/4 party, and when I hit level 6, I took blighter and by level 9 I was back at party op-level and by 13, I was ahead again. Early spell access is pretty cool.

[Gandariel]

Hey, but Blighter has access Earthquake as a 7th level spell and Shambler as an 8h level spell!
AND you get accellerated spell progression!
All the other druids will be jaw-dropping at you as you evoke powerful CR6 monsters at your bidding SEVERAL levels before them!

[Vaz]

There's useless classes, and there's classes which reduce your potential power. A Blighter is still the latter.

A Fighter will still be wiping the floor when up against a Blighter.

[eggynack]

Hey, but Blighter has access Earthquake as a 7th level spell.

I know you're being sarcastic and junk, but druids actually have access to earthquake as a 6th level spell. They can summon oreads (fiend folio, page 134) at SNA VI, and those guys get earthquake once/day. That's in addition to a whole bunch of other fancy SLA's, and it all adds up to the blighter falling apart in yet another way.

[Roguenewb]

There's useless classes, and there's classes which reduce your potential power. A Blighter is still the latter.

A Fighter will still be wiping the floor when up against a Blighter.

I'm not arguing that. It does indeed dramatically weaken your character, but it doesn't destroy it like some of the PrCs that have been brought up in this thread. And Fighters may trash Blighter 1s, but a blighter 10 will likely shred most non super-oped fighter 15s.

[Humble Master]

Not horrible but Halfling Outrider from Complete Warrior is pretty bad.

[ArqArturo]

There's useless classes, and there's classes which reduce your potential power. A Blighter is still the latter.

A Fighter will still be wiping the floor when up against a Blighter.

The moment a PC class has spellcasting, it's hands-off.

Then again, who would win?: 5th-level warmage, or a 5th-level fighter?.

[Amphetryon]

The moment a PC class has spellcasting, it's hands-off.

Then again, who would win?: 5th-level warmage, or a 5th-level fighter?.

Who has Initiative, and where do the combatants start in relation to each other, with what monetary allowance for Magic Items?

[ArqArturo]

Standard non-magical items (both have one tanglefoot bag, though), 60 feet away, Fighter is the typical bruiser with a two-handed weapon (let's say a Ranseur, for fun), and has Dex as dumpt stat. Warmage is a typical blaster with Dex as a tertiary stat.

[Amphetryon]

Standard non-magical items (both have one tanglefoot bag, though), 60 feet away, Fighter is the typical bruiser with a two-handed weapon (let's say a Ranseur, for fun), and has Dex as dumpt stat. Warmage is a typical blaster with Dex as a tertiary stat.

If they're on the ground, with no pre-fight spellcasting allowed, and the Fighter wins Initiative (possible from the above info), he should win. Otherwise, the Warmage is the likely victor, barring outliers.

[JaronK]

Not horrible but Halfling Outrider from Complete Warrior is pretty bad.

Actually that's the core of the Supermount, because it's the only class that advances Paladin Mount, Ranger Companion, and Druid Companion with every level. When combined with Divine Fey Variant Bard (UA variants, gives you an animal companion and makes you divine) and the Holy Mount feat plus PrC Paladin of Freedom and PrC Ranger, you get an insanely good mount with that class.

My nomination goes to Shining Blade of Heironious. That class is absolutely terrible... you give up tons of casting only for the ability to make your weapon have a few magic abilities a few times per day.

JaronK

[Sith_Happens]

Renegade Mastermaker is a 10-level PrC that turns you into an LA+0 race with a cheap magic item.

[Humble Master]

Actually that's the core of the Supermount, because it's the only class that advances Paladin Mount, Ranger Companion, and Druid Companion with every level. When combined with Divine Fey Variant Bard (UA variants, gives you an animal companion and makes you divine) and the Holy Mount feat plus PrC Paladin of Freedom and PrC Ranger, you get an insanely good mount with that class.

My nomination goes to Shining Blade of Heironious. That class is absolutely terrible... you give up tons of casting only for the ability to make your weapon have a few magic abilities a few times per day.

JaronKOh, well never mind about Halfling Outrider. I did not know about the Supermount build.

As for Shining Blade of Heironious it is very terrible.

[Garret Dorigan]

I'd actually forgotten about SBoH it's so bad. The one I thought of when I saw this isn't much better though, only because of it's five levelness. Storm Disciple.

[Vaz]

Thunder Guide from Eberrom Explorers book is fairly terrible, crying out NPC all over.

[Rubik]

As for Shining Blade of Heironious it is very terrible.If you want something like that which actually works, and works well, the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon acf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) is extremely good at what it does, and it costs all of one feat and one power. It's quite powerful, but not so much it'll ruin anything, almost regardless of campaign.

[JaronK]

The thing about the SBoH is that it's not only bad, it's also completely useless because it lacks flavor. I could see someone saying "man, I'd love to make an evil druid that destroys life... I'll make a Blighter!" It would be weak and such, but there's at least some point.

An SBoH is just a Paladin whose sword glows. But a Paladin's sword probably glows anyway. So there's not only no useful abilities, there's also no flavor. There's nothing redeemable. People want to fix Monks because at least they're interesting... nobody wants to fix the SBoH because there's nothing even to fix.

JaronK

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thunder Guide from Eberrom Explorers book is fairly terrible, crying out NPC all over.

Common you get to do a press conference as class feature! Tell me that isn't awesome :smallwink:

[ArqArturo]

I think another bad class is the Wayfarer Guide, because it automatically turns you into a magic bus.

And then, there's the 900lb of fail that is the Unseen Hand, which makes your really really good at Telekinesis.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wayfarer guide is a decent 1 level dip, the extra teleport target and extra range is somewhat useful.

And Master of the Unseen hand is a beast IF you enter via ghost.

[ArqArturo]

Ghost as 'oh-look-I'm-dead-now-I'm-a-ghost' ghost?.

[Rubik]

Ghost as 'oh-look-I'm-dead-now-I'm-a-ghost' ghost?.Oh yes. They get Telekinesis at will. (Albeit every 1d4 rounds.)

The best is generally the 5 level ghost class, which you can buy off each level one at a time (assuming LA buyoff is in play), or you can advance via uncanny trickster or legacy champion (thereby giving you HD with your ghost abilities).

[Dusk Eclipse]

This ghost to be precise (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

[SaintRidley]

I suppose it's just cheating to say True Necromancer, isn't it?

[Roguenewb]

I suppose it's just cheating to say True Necromancer, isn't it?

This is a good entry in this game.

[Karnith]

I suppose it's just cheating to say True Necromancer, isn't it?
I suppose I might as well bring up Yathrinshee, too.

[The Viscount]

Renegade Mastermaker is a 10-level PrC that turns you into an LA+0 race with a cheap magic item.

Renegade Mastermaker may not actually change you into a warforged. RAW it just changes your type to Living Construct. Yes, I know it's a subtype. It still changes your type to living construct. If that's supposed to be changes your type to construct, with the living construct subtype, then it's another Schroedinger's PrC, because it requires humanoid. If it just gives you the subtype, then it's not too useful. But hey, you can still get infinite health by grafting on warforged components, and you can still make your DM sad as you try to sift through the rules of your battlefist.

I wholeheartedly agree with everybody that Shining Blade of Heironeous is awful, but is it really more useless than emancipated spawn? This class doesn't do anything. RAW there are times when you don't even have to take it.

[CyberThread]

Am going to drag up an oldies here....


Enuch Warlock ...whats the point ...oww...


dwarven defender


Peerless Archer...yeah right..

[Rubik]

Renegade Mastermaker may not actually change you into a warforged. RAW it just changes your type to Living Construct. Yes, I know it's a subtype. It still changes your type to living construct. If that's supposed to be changes your type to construct, with the living construct subtype, then it's another Schroedinger's PrC, because it requires humanoid. If it just gives you the subtype, then it's not too useful. But hey, you can still get infinite health by grafting on warforged components, and you can still make your DM sad as you try to sift through the rules of your battlefist.Go take a look at the warforged again. Almost everything that makes warforged awesome is in the [living construct] subtype. Granting that as a subtype is pretty great.

Though forcing you to take that as your type is like trying to change a [humanoid] into [fire]. It's doable with kerosene and a match, and I wouldn't really recommend it.

[Sith_Happens]

Renegade Mastermaker may not actually change you into a warforged. RAW it just changes your type to Living Construct. Yes, I know it's a subtype. It still changes your type to living construct. If that's supposed to be changes your type to construct, with the living construct subtype, then it's another Schroedinger's PrC, because it requires humanoid. If it just gives you the subtype, then it's not too useful. But hey, you can still get infinite health by grafting on warforged components, and you can still make your DM sad as you try to sift through the rules of your battlefist.

That's even better, it's a 10-level PrC that gives almost all the same benefits as being an LA+0 race and buying a cheap magic item.

[TuggyNE]

Renegade Mastermaker may not actually change you into a warforged. RAW it just changes your type to Living Construct. Yes, I know it's a subtype. It still changes your type to living construct. If that's supposed to be changes your type to construct, with the living construct subtype, then it's another Schroedinger's PrC, because it requires humanoid.

So, maybe it should be Humanoid (Living Construct)? :smalltongue:


Though forcing you to take that as your type is like trying to change a [humanoid] into [fire]. It's doable with kerosene and a match, and I wouldn't really recommend it.

Quotable Quotes: Rubik Edition.

[ArcturusV]

Enuch Warlock ...whats the point ...oww...

I wouldn't say Eunuch Warlock is BAAAD. Especially not on the scales of things like others posted up here. Eunuch Warlock varies in power based on which version you're using. I heard a Dragon mag updated it for 3.5 (I don't have it) to give 8/10 full caster progression (Instead of just spellslots per level). Leadership? Not bad to get for free. Free metamagics on spells of your choice? Worse things out there, not as good as some Metamagic based PrCs, but not exactly a stick in the eye.

Giving up your balls? Only matter if you were planning on seducing bar wenches. And we all know that 9/10 wenches are actually Succubi, or Assassins, or other things you rather not get in bed with.

[Rubik]

Giving up your balls? Only matter if you were planning on seducing bar wenches. And we all know that 9/10 wenches are actually Succubi, or Assassins, or other things you rather not get in bed with.You could always cast Regeneration on yourself, or use the ring. Or take the Troll-Blooded feat. Or a psychoactive skin of proteus. Or any number of other ways to get them back.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, but then wouldn't you lose the PrC perks? I thought there was a rule somewhere saying "If you ever lose your qualifications, you lose your PrC level benefits" out there.

[Rubik]

Yeah, but then wouldn't you lose the PrC perks? I thought there was a rule somewhere saying "If you ever lose your qualifications, you lose your PrC level benefits" out there.Only for the PrCs in Complete Warrior, since it specifies the ones in that book. Unless the PrC in question specifies what happens when you grow some goolies?

[eggynack]

Yeah, but then wouldn't you lose the PrC perks? I thought there was a rule somewhere saying "If you ever lose your qualifications, you lose your PrC level benefits" out there.
I believe it's in Complete Warrior, which raises whole arguments about whether Complete Warrior has the authority to create that rule, and how a primary source is defined. It's all rather annoying, really.

[Scow2]

I believe it's in Complete Warrior, which raises whole arguments about whether Complete Warrior has the authority to create that rule, and how a primary source is defined. It's all rather annoying, really.

It doesn't have that authority. That book just failed to get the memo during the update to 3.5 (It's also part of the reason the book tends to be so weak all around)

[eggynack]

It doesn't have that authority. That book just failed to get the memo during the update to 3.5 (It's also part of the reason the book tends to be so weak all around)
I agree with you, but there's an argument that claims otherwise. It's a rather odd corner of the game's rules.

[ArqArturo]

Wait, there's a PrC that requires you to be a Eunuch?.

No thanks. I'll take the ten levels of Shining Blade of Heironeus before that, and one could argue that even that PrC is castrating.

[The Trickster]

Never was a big fan of the Order of the Bow Initiate. Not only does it have strange prerequisites to get in, but it really doesn't add enough to make it worth while to take, IMO.

[JaronK]

I wholeheartedly agree with everybody that Shining Blade of Heironeous is awful, but is it really more useless than emancipated spawn? This class doesn't do anything. RAW there are times when you don't even have to take it.

Emancipated Spawn... you mean the class that gives you almost all abilities ever? No, that class is crazy broken. That + Thought Bottle is absolutely nuts.

SBoH though... it just makes your sword glow. In exchange for things like the ability to cast Holy Sword (which would give you an actually good glowing sword).

JaronK

[CyberThread]

ooo I know a good one


prestige ranger :P

[Killer Angel]

ooo I know a good one


prestige ranger :P

:smallconfused:
...isn't the Prestige Ranger, better than the actual Ranger?

[ArcturusV]

Not really I suppose. I mean you need to take 3 feats. Barring flaws or Human, that means you can't enter it until 7th level. Which puts you behind on Combat Mastery, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, and Favored Enemy if you cared about it.

But your Animal Companion will be 1 effective druid level stronger than it would otherwise be. Though you'd probably take a druid level to hit the Prereq for Calm Animals. So maybe more than just 1 effective druid level stronger. If you care about Animal Companions.

[Crasical]

DR isn't even very useful.

Hardness, however, is both cheap and amazing. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

What? How does that even work?

[Grim Reader]

So i didn't read everything but i search each page for what i would vote for and no one has said blighter. It literally only makes you worse. There is no upside. you go from being a powerful teir 1 druid to being probably tier 3. It's just horrible. I've never seen heard of a good reason to take blighter.

Um...Blighter is rather powerful.

Most people miss the fact that the ex-druid requirement is fluff. You can be an Elan who was a druid pre-Elan, or have had your druid levels level-drained long before the campaign began.

You can enter Blighter after four levels of a full-BaB class, such as Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger.

If entered from a full-BaB class, the Blighter has faster spell access than even a Ur-Priest! Worse spell list, but those are expandable.

You also get the handy ability to be an Undead when it suits you, and living when it works better thanks to Undead Wild Shape.

I mean, you need BaB +4 and some background fluff to enter, you get 9th level spells in 9 levels, Undead type when it suits you, and only then, wildshape as well as some other minor stuff.

Its a pretty powerful package.

[Vaz]

So outside of handwaiving shenanigans that include having a backstory of 'oh, yeah, he was a 5th level Druid, then got a bit handsy with a Wight after teaching someone to speak Druidic, and then became Fighter?'

However, as outside of that, it means you are a Druid 5/Blighter 10/x5, it is a bit of a downgrade?

I do agree that despite that, it is a fairly strong class, still capable of outstripping things like a Fighter or Healr

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You aren't that much of a threat to your allies. Sure you can run out of enemies but you're not going to fail enough Will saves to kill your entire party. Also it's not like your party won't try to stop you. A Wizard could just cast Charm Person on you and a Cleric could use Hold Person.

If you don't have some means of NOT becoming your opponent's personal flying monkey, then you are a far larger threat to your allies than simply TPKing everyone. See previous statement about deliberately building in a weakness will only make it easier for opponents to deal with you. In this case, not only does it negate your character as a threat to intelligent and prepared opponents, it makes you an even bigger danger to your party.

Also, you only need to fail ONE save to TPK the whole party (except possibly the wizard, depending on how he is set up).

[Vedhin]

Peerless Archer...yeah right..

Peerless Archer is one of the best archery PrCs out there, unless I'm vastly misremembering. It gives an ability that is basically Power Attack with a bow, something practically every archer wants.

[The Viscount]

So, maybe it should be Humanoid (Living Construct)? :smalltongue:

This is probably what they were aiming for, in which case gaining the subtype is pretty good, but still kind of weird.


Emancipated Spawn... you mean the class that gives you almost all abilities ever? No, that class is crazy broken. That + Thought Bottle is absolutely nuts.

JaronK

While being an undead with class levels is potentially powerful, Emancipated Spawn is entirely unnecessary in many cases, as you can simply take monster class for the undead you become. Taking Emancipated Spawn is absurd, because when you are finished your ECL is undead ECL + previous class levels + 3 from Emancipated Spawn. This jump in ECL will likely put you over the rest of your companions, and while you're taking levels of emancipated spawn you're very possibly behind. The whole purpose of this class can be accomplished through other methods, namely monster classes or savage progressions. You don't need to take it to get its effect. That seems pretty useless to me.

[Rubik]

What? How does that even work?As a warforged, his armor is part of him. If someone tries to sunder the armor plating, it deals damage directly to him. Any effect that repairs his plating repairs him, too. He is his armor, meaning that the hardness is granted to him directly from his stacked armor crystal. His entire body is an unarmed strike (which is necessary in order for his unarmed strike to work, since any and every part of his body can be used to make them); therefor, the stacked weapon crystal grants him additional hardness. And finally, his unarmed strike is explicitly considered a manufactured weapon for any effect that buffs it (meaning the Hardening spell and Matter Manipulation power should work just fine, since they can be used on, say, a long sword).

Most of the rest of the build springboards off of those ideas.

[Karnith]

While being an undead with class levels is potentially powerful, Emancipated Spawn is entirely unnecessary in many cases, as you can simply take monster class for the undead you become. Taking Emancipated Spawn is absurd, because when you are finished your ECL is undead ECL + previous class levels + 3 from Emancipated Spawn. This jump in ECL will likely put you over the rest of your companions, and while you're taking levels of emancipated spawn you're very possibly behind. The whole purpose of this class can be accomplished through other methods, namely monster classes or savage progressions. You don't need to take it to get its effect. That seems pretty useless to me.
JaronK was (I believe) referring to builds like The Word (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_ Build%29), which used Emancipated Spawn and Though Bottle cheese to get CL 100+ Blasphemies and Holy Words as Supernatural abilities. Other uses of Thought Bottles and ES could be similarly abusive, which puts ES into the "useless if used as intended, broken if not" camp.

[Roguenewb]

How about almost every PrC in drow of the underdark? Considering they didn't take into account that almost any character entering would have +2 LA, some of the pre-reqs suck hard, and if memory serves one can't be finished pre-epic due to LA.

[Amphetryon]

How about almost every PrC in drow of the underdark? Considering they didn't take into account that almost any character entering would have +2 LA, some of the pre-reqs suck hard, and if memory serves one can't be finished pre-epic due to LA.

There are rules for Lesser Drow, Half-Drow, and buying back LA to account for most of those issues.

[ArqArturo]

To be fair just about every druid PrC makes you worse lol

Well, the master of many shapes is not useless... In a non-druid.

A Ranger with a one-level dip in Abolisher (Abolisher gives wild shape at level one, but only of medium-sized animals) and levels in Master of Many Forms is actually pretty decent.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Um...Blighter is rather powerful.

Most people miss the fact that the ex-druid requirement is fluff. You can be an Elan who was a druid pre-Elan, or have had your druid levels level-drained long before the campaign began.

You can enter Blighter after four levels of a full-BaB class, such as Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger.

If entered from a full-BaB class, the Blighter has faster spell access than even a Ur-Priest! Worse spell list, but those are expandable.

You also get the handy ability to be an Undead when it suits you, and living when it works better thanks to Undead Wild Shape.

I mean, you need BaB +4 and some background fluff to enter, you get 9th level spells in 9 levels, Undead type when it suits you, and only then, wildshape as well as some other minor stuff.

Its a pretty powerful package.

Respectfully, I disagree. Note how all references to ex-druid are in the present tense. Eg. 'Must be an ex-druid', 'since blighters are ex-druids'.

I'm fairly certain that the RAW would agree with me.

Mind you, your trick of going up to Druid 5, then level draining down should work even with my interpretation if you keep at least 1 druid level (but once again, that cuts off early acccess).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, the master of many shapes is not useless... In a non-druid.

A Ranger with a one-level dip in Abolisher (Abolisher gives wild shape at level one, but only of medium-sized animals) and levels in Master of Many Forms is actually pretty decent.

Why go Abolisher when there is a variant for ranger in the SRD/UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) that gives wildshape (medium and small animals).

[ArqArturo]

Why go Abolisher when there is a variant for ranger in the SRD/UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) that gives wildshape (medium and small animals).

Well, I mostly deal with 3.5 books (not to mention petty thievery and drunken brawls) to make 3.5 builds. I don't own UA, so I had no idea there was a variant, but I did knew there was a variant for barbarians and sorcerers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Unearthed Arcana is 3.5 for the record.

[Karnith]

Well, I mostly deal with 3.5 books [...] to make 3.5 builds.
Unearthed Arcana is 3.5. It was published in February of 2004, or roughly half a year after the 3.5 Player's Handbook was released.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[ArqArturo]

Ahhh, that I didn't know. Now that I do, however...

[ArcturusV]

And knowing is half the battle.

[Rubik]

http://denver.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/rsz/mlfw1401_large.jpg

[Khatoblepas]

Respectfully, I disagree. Note how all references to ex-druid are in the present tense. Eg. 'Must be an ex-druid', 'since blighters are ex-druids'.

I'm fairly certain that the RAW would agree with me.

You're still an ex-druid even if you level drain away the levels. You're still an ex-druid if you decide it's a great idea to get bitten by a vampire and become a vampire spawn, or if you seek out a cabal of humanlike aliens to destroy your memories and become an immortal monster, cut off from the cycle of life, for a quick route to power.

Just because you acknowledged your mistake and got rid of your excess baggage doesn't make your character any less of an ex-druid. You've still pissed off nature, and can't take any more levels or have any druid spells until you atone, even if you don't have any anymore.

The sin that you commit in becoming an ex-druid runs deeper than your class levels. The fact that you were so advanced before betraying the very thing you swore to protect, to turn away from it and attempt to erase any trace of it on yourself. To hold the facade of protecting nature in order to find it's weakest point so you could most efficiently backstab it in an effort to make a grab for quick power at the expense of everything, even your own past triumphs and identity. Become something so twisted and alien and unnatural, that sucks the life out of everything around it for cheap power.

That

Is what a Blighter would do.

[JaronK]

While being an undead with class levels is potentially powerful, Emancipated Spawn is entirely unnecessary in many cases, as you can simply take monster class for the undead you become. Taking Emancipated Spawn is absurd, because when you are finished your ECL is undead ECL + previous class levels + 3 from Emancipated Spawn. This jump in ECL will likely put you over the rest of your companions, and while you're taking levels of emancipated spawn you're very possibly behind. The whole purpose of this class can be accomplished through other methods, namely monster classes or savage progressions. You don't need to take it to get its effect. That seems pretty useless to me.

What you're missing here is that you can thought bottle to set your exp, use the bottle to get your experience back, get to level 2 in the class (getting back lots of abilities without the ECL), then take the rest of your regained levels to gain a whole bunch of new class abilities, then repeat. On the last cycle, take the third level and get all the classes you ever wanted at once. That's how you use ES.

It's crazy broken.

And someone mentioned the PrC Ranger, but that's also a critical part of the ubermount.

Really, a lot of these classes are kinday sucky in general but have some use in really powerful, clever builds.

Unlike the SBoH, which truly has no use at all.

JaronK

[Venger]

A Truenamer forsaker could work; just reforge the smashed item and give it to the target.

An Ardent can manifest the Psionic Magic Weapon equivalent, and augment it to make it a temporary magic weapon as well. Just pick up a half dozen sticks at the road side, and spend your days crafting them into clubs. Each day, make them into a +4 Magic Weapon, and destroy it.

clubs cost 0gp, so you don't need to spend your days (or in fact any time at all) crafting them. Useful for making barricades to defend the town when your dm inevitably throws 7 samurais at you (because he will)


Hmm, the two that always stood out to me is Sword of Righteousness and Wonderworker, for similar reasons.
I liked wonderworker better when it was called eunuch warlock. at least that way I can use it to advance ur-priest.


I must concur with Blighter being a horrid PrC. The only thing going for it is the fluff and roleplaying.
druids can be NE too. there's nothing that you can RP as a blighter that you can't as a druid.

as far as my own contribution (that hasn't already been mentioned)

I've gotta throw in acolyte of the skin.

half casting and a variety of crappy SLAs and some lame powers from an item that you can just buy as a graft in the first place. horrid.

re: rage mage. I can see it (kinda) working with runescarred berserker and southern magician.

that is if it were actually possible for anyone to qualify for RB by RAW

[CyberThread]

I nominate ur-priest , because they have no room in an non evil group :P

[Amphetryon]

What you're missing here is that you can thought bottle to set your exp, use the bottle to get your experience back, get to level 2 in the class (getting back lots of abilities without the ECL), then take the rest of your regained levels to gain a whole bunch of new class abilities, then repeat. On the last cycle, take the third level and get all the classes you ever wanted at once. That's how you use ES.

It's crazy broken.

And someone mentioned the PrC Ranger, but that's also a critical part of the ubermount.

Really, a lot of these classes are kinday sucky in general but have some use in really powerful, clever builds.

Unlike the SBoH, which truly has no use at all.

JaronK
Found a use for Knight Protector, yet? :smallsmile:

[Grim Reader]

So outside of handwaiving shenanigans that include having a backstory of 'oh, yeah, he was a 5th level Druid, then got a bit handsy with a Wight after teaching someone to speak Druidic, and then became Fighter?'
I do agree that despite that, it is a fairly strong class, still capable of outstripping things like a Fighter or Healr

"Handwaiving shenanigans" is a funny way of spelling "by RAW".

Other PrCs have requirements like "must have been dead and raised", "must have beaten so and so in combat, must have done a favor for elves, etc. Would you say these things could not be part of a characters background by RAW?


However, as outside of that, it means you are a Druid 5/Blighter 10/x5, it is a bit of a downgrade?

Thats not even a legal entry, it doesn't have the BaB.

"The character must be an ex-Druid previously capable of casting 3rd level druid spells" is a prerequisite. You cannot enter as a Druid 5, because you must have lost your Druid status and spellcasting as a prerequisite. By RAW. That can mean aqquiring the ex-Druid status from the Druid class, but any other means of being an ex-Druid is equally valid.

However, even if that had been legal, you would have had 9th level spells at level 14, so its hard to see what it would be a downgrade on.


Respectfully, I disagree. Note how all references to ex-druid are in the present tense. Eg. 'Must be an ex-druid', 'since blighters are ex-druids'.

I'm fairly certain that the RAW would agree with me.

Mind you, your trick of going up to Druid 5, then level draining down should work even with my interpretation if you keep at least 1 druid level (but once again, that cuts off early acccess).

I am not a native speaker, so I am not sure I follow your interpretation of the term "ex"? As I understand it, if you are an "ex" something, you are no longer that thing. Being less of that thing does not suffice, you must have been that thing, and no longer be it at all. Have I misunderstood?


druids can be NE too. there's nothing that you can RP as a blighter that you can't as a druid.

I am not sure if the mechanics support rping a Druid who hates life and nature and wants the world to be as it was in the beginning -cold, clean and silent. Just snow falling on lifeless rock. Forever.

Or one who likes to immerse himself in anti life by turning undead at sunset.

To keep it on-topic, Blighter is a rather amusing and powerful class with a number of uses.

For example, Blighter/Master of Many Forms can have some serious Undead Wildshape shenanigans going on. So can a Blighter/Master of Flies.

[PersonMan]

I nominate ur-priest , because they have no room in an non evil group :P

Eh, "unusable most of the time" =/= "useless".

Oh, and mixed alignment parties can work, and some groups run them, so it'd be used there.

The must be evil thing is pretty much nonsense anyways, but that's another issue.

EDIT: I think he means something like

Druid 6 - during level 6 you break the Druid code-thing and lose your spellcasting etc. (or go CE or LG or whatever)
Then you take Blighter as your next level. You are, at level 6, an ex-Druid.

In this context, ex-X means "has levels in X, but lost class abilities due to breaking [the code]", not "was an X, lost class levels".

[Grim Reader]

EDIT: I think he means something like

Druid 6 - during level 6 you break the Druid code-thing and lose your spellcasting etc. (or go CE or LG or whatever)
Then you take Blighter as your next level. You are, at level 6, an ex-Druid.

In this context, ex-X means "has levels in X, but lost class abilities due to breaking [the code]", not "was an X, lost class levels".

You are right, that is one way of qualifying. Druids can enter an ex-Druid status. However, it is not the only way of being an Ex-Druid.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Eh, "unusable most of the time" =/= "useless".

Oh, and mixed alignment parties can work, and some groups run them, so it'd be used there.

The must be evil thing is pretty much nonsense anyways, but that's another issue.

EDIT: I think he means something like

Druid 6 - during level 6 you break the Druid code-thing and lose your spellcasting etc. (or go CE or LG or whatever)
Then you take Blighter as your next level. You are, at level 6, an ex-Druid.

In this context, ex-X means "has levels in X, but lost class abilities due to breaking [the code]", not "was an X, lost class levels".

Precisely.

[CyberThread]

Was aiming more for humor comment, but if I really honestly had to buckle down and pick one, I still go with the enuch warlock before the dragon magazine update.

[Humble Master]

So, how about worst PrC fluff wise? Which one just seems to be excessively lame.

My vote goes to the Evangelist from Complete Divine. You proclaim the greatness of your religion...and that's basically it.

[Rubik]

So, how about worst PrC fluff wise? Which one just seems to be excessively lame.

My vote goes to the Evangelist from Complete Divine. You proclaim the greatness of your religion...and that's basically it.By the sounds of things, the shining fail of Heironeous is the worst. "I have a glowy sword." Bleh.

[Grim Reader]

By the sounds of things, the shining fail of Heironeous is the worst. "I have a glowy sword." Bleh.

I seem to remember there was a contest on the WoTC boards once, to try to find a way in which 10 levels of Shining Fail did not make you strictly worse than 10 levels in your base class, and no-one could find one. There was no way you did not end up worse than your base class with it.

[Scow2]

So, how about worst PrC fluff wise? Which one just seems to be excessively lame.

My vote goes to the Evangelist from Complete Divine. You proclaim the greatness of your religion...and that's basically it.

That's all it needs to be, and it can be done AWESOMELY by a competent/zealous/hammy player. Shining Blade of Heironeous' fluff goes by a better name and class: Paladin.

[Vedhin]

I seem to remember there was a contest on the WoTC boards once, to try to find a way in which 10 levels of Shining Fail did not make you strictly worse than 10 levels in your base class, and no-one could find one. There was no way you did not end up worse than your base class with it.

Warrior. With a level of Adept for pre-reqs. That's the only marginally possible idea I have. But even then Adept 20 is better.
Though Adept 14/Shining Blade 6 still hits max spell level. So, 6 level dip for Adepts?

[ArqArturo]

By the sounds of things, the shining fail of Heironeous is the worst. "I have a glowy sword." Bleh.

I think they tried to make a 10-level PrC that ressembled a Jedi, I mean, look at the artwork:


http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/images/WotC_Art_Galleries/Complete_Divine/Shining%20Blade%20of%20Heironeous%20by%20Steven%20 Belledin.jpg

Honestly, minus the shield, the guy screams 'jedi', although that sneer also says 'douchebag', and 'why did I waste levels in this?'

[Venger]

I nominate ur-priest , because they have no room in an non evil group :P

(Good and Evil used here to refer to the alignments, so as to avoid confusion with good and evil in common parlance, since as many threads can attest, they have little if any overlap)

as mentioned upthread, the whole "ur-priests must be Evil" business is nonsense. they steal indiscriminately from Good and Evil gods. it would be trivial for a player to only leach wifi from only Evil gods (a Good act, as far as RAW is concerned) to torrent their spells.

it doesn't require any Evil acts to get in, it's just a relic from it being originally printed in bovd (back in 3.0 where the wall of the faithless was canon, so being an atheist or just not worshipping gods got you a one-way ticket to being impaled on a bunch of spikes for all eternity)


I am not sure if the mechanics support rping a Druid who hates life and nature and wants the world to be as it was in the beginning -cold, clean and silent. Just snow falling on lifeless rock. Forever.
You mention English is not your first language. This is really quite a beautiful turn of phrase. Are you Japanese?

Earth as it once was
Snow falls on a lifeless rock
Cold, clean, and silent

I can see arguing that the intent or the flavor may be against rping a druid that way (perhaps in older editions, since there's nothing in the 3.5 PHB about it) but as far as mechanics go, all the rules say you have to do is:


revere nature, [not] change to a prohibited alignment, [and not] teach the Druidic language to a nondruid

plus the metal armor stuff, but no one cares about that, and it doesn't cause you to become an ex-druid anyway.

Other than that, you can play a druid as you like.

Being an NE druid doesn't mean you have to want the complete abolition of all life on the planet (as the tick said, "where would you sit?") Even blighter calls out explicitly in its third paragraph that blighters don't want to destroy every living thing on the planet either, because then they'd have nothing to draw power from.

As you've said though, wanting the earth to return to its "natural" state before it was crawling with life is a valid (and very interesting) motivation for an NE druid. reincarnate is on the druid list, so your character could be functionally immortal, from before the planet was nearly so full, and want to put things back the way they were.


Or one who likes to immerse himself in anti life by turning undead at sunset.

druids neither turn undead, nor do they need to prepare spells at a certain time. you are thinking of clerics.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Nice haiku, Venger.

Another way to pull off a NE druid is by following the path of the Children of Winter (Eberron). They do a lot of death, disease, and vermin-type stuff and believe that only the strong will (and should!) survive.

[Dusk Eclipse]

(Good and Evil used here to refer to the alignments, so as to avoid confusion with good and evil in common parlance, since as many threads can attest, they have little if any overlap)

as mentioned upthread, the whole "ur-priests must be Evil" business is nonsense. they steal indiscriminately from Good and Evil gods. it would be trivial for a player to only leach wifi from only Evil gods (a Good act, as far as RAW is concerned) to torrent their spells.

it doesn't require any Evil acts to get in, it's just a relic from it being originally printed in bovd (back in 3.0 where the wall of the faithless was canon, so being an atheist or just not worshipping gods got you a one-way ticket to being impaled on a bunch of spikes for all eternity)


You mention English is not your first language. This is really quite a beautiful turn of phrase. Are you Japanese?

Earth as it once was
Snow falls on a lifeless rock
Cold, clean, and silent

I can see arguing that the intent or the flavor may be against rping a druid that way (perhaps in older editions, since there's nothing in the 3.5 PHB about it) but as far as mechanics go, all the rules say you have to do is:



plus the metal armor stuff, but no one cares about that, and it doesn't cause you to become an ex-druid anyway.

Other than that, you can play a druid as you like.

Being an NE druid doesn't mean you have to want the complete abolition of all life on the planet (as the tick said, "where would you sit?") Even blighter calls out explicitly in its third paragraph that blighters don't want to destroy every living thing on the planet either, because then they'd have nothing to draw power from.

As you've said though, wanting the earth to return to its "natural" state before it was crawling with life is a valid (and very interesting) motivation for an NE druid. reincarnate is on the druid list, so your character could be functionally immortal, from before the planet was nearly so full, and want to put things back the way they were.



druids neither turn undead, nor do they need to prepare spells at a certain time. you are thinking of clerics.

Isn't the Wall of the Faithless still canon as of 3.5 (not sure on 4e)

[ArcturusV]

Fluffwise, the worst PrC? I'm going to ignore something like Sword of Righteousness which doesn't really have fluff other than "I R Exalted!". Though that again might top the list for me.

I suppose I never really liked the fluff of Maho-Tsukai if I was going to pick one that was actually fluffed. And the reason is usually a disconnect between the Mechanics and the Fluff, though the Fluff Derived Mechanics are fine by me.

What I mean is that the fluff is that Maho is a seductive, easy path to a lot of power. You're selling your sanity, your soul, and your body to forces like Demons and Fell Gods. But the Maho unique spells are really kinda subpar compared to spells that an otherwise uncorrupted, pure caster would have. Their power comes from having a few ab-useable spells on their list like Polymorph and Planar Binding that aren't really Maho spells specifically. I mean you're selling your soul for very minor, inconsequential power for the most part.

[Venger]

Nice haiku, Venger.

Another way to pull off a NE druid is by following the path of the Children of Winter (Eberron). They do a lot of death, disease, and vermin-type stuff and believe that only the strong will (and should!) survive.

Thanks.

that works too, survival of the fittest thing going on.

[Alabenson]

I'd have to say Cryokineticist is, if not the absolute worst, than certainly up their. It's as if WoTC looked at the Pyrokineticist (a weak Prc whose only saving grace is that it's entry requirements are extremely simple) and said "hmmm, how can we make this worse in every conceivable way?"

Seriously; it still doesn't advance manifesting, which would be so quite so bad if it didn't require a second level power known as a prereq, mandating a minimum three level dip instead of a single feat, and every single class ability it receives is substantially weaker than what Pyrokineticist gets at the same level.

[The Viscount]

So, how about worst PrC fluff wise? Which one just seems to be excessively lame.

My vote goes to the Evangelist from Complete Divine. You proclaim the greatness of your religion...and that's basically it.

Evangelist may see some use for Diplomancer builds.


Was aiming more for humor comment, but if I really honestly had to buckle down and pick one, I still go with the enuch warlock before the dragon magazine update.

Eunuch warlock before the update actually does have a pretty neat use. It's great for "advancing" prestige classes that have short, completed advancement, for example, Ur-Priest, since we're talking about it. Ur-Priest can't progress its casting by normal means after level 10, so eunuch warlock is actually pretty good for it. The same applies to other classes with 10 level progressions. These are also a good use of classes like Hierophant. You can't advance your casting, so it doesn't matter that it doesn't.

[jamieth]

I suppose I never really liked the fluff of Maho-Tsukai if I was going to pick one that was actually fluffed. And the reason is usually a disconnect between the Mechanics and the Fluff, though the Fluff Derived Mechanics are fine by me.

Speaking of fluff, "Magic User" is among the least cool names for a PrC ever.

[nedz]

Nobody has mentioned Enlightened Spirit. Basically they created a bunch of good aligned invocations and then placed them rigidly in a class. If they'd just published the invocations separately then the ideas would have had value, but as it stands the class just screws up your Warlock. It even screws up the timing of when you get flight. I suppose a 1 level dip might be useful, if you wanted spirit blast, but that's about all.

[TuggyNE]

Speaking of fluff, "Magic User" is among the least cool names for a PrC ever.

It's even worse as a base class name, though. Take that, Gygax! ;)

[JaronK]

I seem to remember there was a contest on the WoTC boards once, to try to find a way in which 10 levels of Shining Fail did not make you strictly worse than 10 levels in your base class, and no-one could find one. There was no way you did not end up worse than your base class with it.

I made that contest. And it was actually easier... it was "find a way to use ANY levels of the SBoH that don't make you strictly worse than just taking more levels of the other classes used in your build instead of those levels."

The only guy who won used Paladin 12/SBoH 1 to win, because Paladin 13 is a completely dead level. Cheeky bastard.

But yeah, SBoH is also worst for fluff, because the only fluff is "my sword, which was probably glowing already, glows!"

JaronK

[CyberThread]

I wonder if court herald counts as the most obscure prc?

[Killer Angel]

Not really I suppose. I mean you need to take 3 feats. Barring flaws or Human, that means you can't enter it until 7th level. Which puts you behind on Combat Mastery, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, and Favored Enemy if you cared about it.

But your Animal Companion will be 1 effective druid level stronger than it would otherwise be. Though you'd probably take a druid level to hit the Prereq for Calm Animals. So maybe more than just 1 effective druid level stronger. If you care about Animal Companions.

Well, it's not only the animal c., also spells are better... but I see your point, the feats tax isn't a cheap one.

[nedz]

I made that contest. And it was actually easier... it was "find a way to use ANY levels of the SBoH that don't make you strictly worse than just taking more levels of the other classes used in your build instead of those levels."

The only guy who won used Paladin 12/SBoH 1 to win, because Paladin 13 is a completely dead level. Cheeky bastard.

But yeah, SBoH is also worst for fluff, because the only fluff is "my sword, which was probably glowing already, glows!"

JaronK

Actually in the adoptions section it says you can change the weapon as appropriate for the deity in question; so using a deity such as Ilmater [FR] or Phieran [Exalted] who are LG and have Unarmed Strike as their weapon.
Monk 6 / Adept 4 / SBoH 10 might be better than Monk 6 / Adept 14 ?
At least the Monk's hands will look flash.

[eggynack]

Actually in the adoptions section it says you can change the weapon as appropriate for the deity in question; so using a deity such as Ilmater [FR] or Phieran [Exalted] who are LG and have Unarmed Strike as their weapon.
Monk 6 / Adept 4 / SBoH 10 might be better than Monk 6 / Adept 14 ?
At least the Monk's hands will look flash.
I don't know if I'd call it necessarily strictly worse than the monk 6/ adept 14, but I'd most likely rather just pick up 4th level spells and call it a day. You get polymorph at that level, and that's some good casting right there. Adept casting is surprisingly awesome sometimes. The argument becomes even more in the adept's favor if you just go straight adept, because once again, adepts are frigging sweet. They just have this tiny spell list, except most of those spells are amazing, and they're often still good by the level you get them. Unless you have better casting available, when are you going to stop casting mirror image, invisibility, or web? I just have a soft spot for our noble PC class beating NPC.

[Chronos]

Adepts also have a fairly diverse spell list, including several spells that are normally arcane-only as divine spells. Who else can cast both Heal and Web?

Of course, this diverse, interesting spell list is best used by an Archivist, not an Adept, but then, all divine spellcasting is better as an Archivist.

[eggynack]

Adepts also have a fairly diverse spell list, including several spells that are normally arcane-only as divine spells. Who else can cast both Heal and Web?

Of course, this diverse, interesting spell list is best used by an Archivist, not an Adept, but then, all divine spellcasting is better as an Archivist.
Oh, of course. Adepts are sitting all the way down there at tier four for a reason. They just have a list that's arbitrarily amazing enough to make them better than fighters, paladins, and amusingly enough, healers. They sit there, on top of their tiny hill, lording it over all the tier fives who are so inadequate that they are worse than an NPC. There's just something special about an adept, I think.

[Vedhin]

Hey, I mentioned Adept 14/Shining Blade 6 on the last page. You still get 5th level Adept spells, and you get a better BAB and Fort saves, losing 3 CL,1 5th level spell per day, and 1 fourth level spell per day. And you get a glowing sword, which has more meaning with NPC WBL.
And Adept 18/SB 2 loses nothing but 1 CL over Adept 20 (same spells per day), and boosts your saves and BAB. And your sword glows twice a day.
Edit: Wait, your HD also increases to d10 from d6.

[Humble Master]

Hey, I mentioned Adept 14/Shining Blade 6 on the last page. You still get 5th level Adept spells, and you get a better BAB and Fort saves, losing 3 CL,1 5th level spell per day, and 1 fourth level spell per day. And you get a glowing sword, which has more meaning with NPC WBL.
And Adept 18/SB 2 loses nothing but 1 CL over Adept 20 (same spells per day), and boosts your saves and BAB. And your sword glows twice a day.
Edit: Wait, your HD also increases to d10 from d6. Well, a caster doesn't really need BAB. Sure, the saves are nice but for the most part, an Adept should be supporting with his spells, not spending his actions whacking things.

[Vedhin]

Well, a caster doesn't really need BAB. Sure, the saves are nice but for the most part, an Adept should be supporting with his spells, not spending his actions whacking things.

Well Adepts do get spells that require attack rolls, like scorching ray and... well, they get scorching ray. The saves and HP are pretty much the only real reason for an Adept to take the levels, and even then it's only really worth two levels. But Adept 18/Shining Blade 2 has twice as many levels of SB as the winning build in JaronK's contest, and loses only a CL that doesn't provide any major benefits. Really, the bump in saves and bigger HD are the only reasons SB might work with adept at all-- and even then only about 2 levels.
But it's so bad that it's worth maybe a two level dip for a NPC class

Conclusion: Shining Blade might have a very niche use, but there are classes that do what it does better. Even the glowing sword is beat by Kensai. Shining Blade is quite likely the worst Prestige class.

[The Viscount]

Nobody has mentioned Enlightened Spirit. Basically they created a bunch of good aligned invocations and then placed them rigidly in a class. If they'd just published the invocations separately then the ideas would have had value, but as it stands the class just screws up your Warlock. It even screws up the timing of when you get flight. I suppose a 1 level dip might be useful, if you wanted spirit blast, but that's about all.

Enlightened Spirit also tramples the small amount of fluff that warlock had. Enlightened Spirits draw their power from their celestial ancestry, despite the fact that warlocks are supposed to draw their power from fiendish ancestry. Also the sample NPC is a dwarf, which is absurd for a warlock. He looks so uncomfortable in that pose.

[Dusk Eclipse]

With all this talk about Shining Blade of Hieronous I'm worried it will be the next secret ingredient for IC.

[Venger]

With all this talk about Shining Blade of Hieronous I'm worried it will be the next secret ingredient for IC.

we're not getting shining blade for the same reason we're not getting eldritch knight: because it doesn't have any class features to progress. kind of impossible for there to be a UotSI section if there's nothing in the SI to, um, use.

[ArqArturo]

I'd have to say Cryokineticist is, if not the absolute worst, than certainly up their. It's as if WoTC looked at the Pyrokineticist (a weak Prc whose only saving grace is that it's entry requirements are extremely simple) and said "hmmm, how can we make this worse in every conceivable way?"

I think any PrC that focuses on one element is dangerously flawed, with a few notable exceptions of course. This is my personal beef with the Elemental Savant, since it turns all the damage-dealing spells into one element.


Enlightened Spirit also tramples the small amount of fluff that warlock had. Enlightened Spirits draw their power from their celestial ancestry, despite the fact that warlocks are supposed to draw their power from fiendish ancestry. Also the sample NPC is a dwarf, which is absurd for a warlock. He looks so uncomfortable in that pose.

Meh, I did the fluff of the ES differently: In my campaign setting, ES' were the result of a purification ritual.

Besides, wouldn't a Warlock with a few Exalted Feats do pretty much the same?.

[nedz]

Enlightened Spirit also tramples the small amount of fluff that warlock had. Enlightened Spirits draw their power from their celestial ancestry, despite the fact that warlocks are supposed to draw their power from fiendish ancestry. Also the sample NPC is a dwarf, which is absurd for a warlock. He looks so uncomfortable in that pose.

I don't see a fluff problem here: Enlightened Spirits are supposed to be reformed Fiendishly powered Warlocks.

The Warlock - Fey related fluff is fairly well established too.

The problems are mechanical. Suppose you can already fly ? Maybe you took the Half-Fey Template or Racial class ? Why would you then need the Flight invocation ? Now you can swap out these invocations as one of the three options Warlock has for this, though you have probably missed the level 6 one already; so maybe there is a simple fix whereby you allow the character to select any other invocation of the same rank instead of the listed ones, but that's not RAW.

[JaronK]

Hey, I mentioned Adept 14/Shining Blade 6 on the last page. You still get 5th level Adept spells, and you get a better BAB and Fort saves, losing 3 CL,1 5th level spell per day, and 1 fourth level spell per day. And you get a glowing sword, which has more meaning with NPC WBL.
And Adept 18/SB 2 loses nothing but 1 CL over Adept 20 (same spells per day), and boosts your saves and BAB. And your sword glows twice a day.
Edit: Wait, your HD also increases to d10 from d6.

I'm loving that the only way to make the SBoH look good is to pair it with NPC classes in hopes that it makes one better, and even then it's a close one.

Creative idea though!

JaronK

[nedz]

I'm loving that the only way to make the SBoH look good is to pair it with NPC classes in hopes that it makes one better, and even then it's a close one.

Creative idea though!

JaronK

Well there's this one:
Warrior 5 / Pious Templar 5 / SBoH 10
All classes are Full BAB and since PT only has 10 levels of casting: SBoH's 5/10 casting is sufficient. All you are losing from PT is +1 DR, +2 uses of smite/day and a bonus feat.

[The Viscount]

I don't see a fluff problem here: Enlightened Spirits are supposed to be reformed Fiendishly powered Warlocks.

The Warlock - Fey related fluff is fairly well established too.

The problems are mechanical. Suppose you can already fly ? Maybe you took the Half-Fey Template or Racial class ? Why would you then need the Flight invocation ? Now you can swap out these invocations as one of the three options Warlock has for this, though you have probably missed the level 6 one already; so maybe there is a simple fix whereby you allow the character to select any other invocation of the same rank instead of the listed ones, but that's not RAW.

These are very legitimate problems. My fluff problem is that while Warlocks can obtain their power from fey as well as fiends, Enlightened Spirit grants celestial-esque abilities and invocations. Warlock gains its power either through bloodline or pacts by it or its ancestors, so to gain Celestial powers just because it went the path of good irritates me. It doesn't make sense to me.

[RandomLunatic]

How has nobody noticed the poor Tempest from Complete Adventurer? Not only does the Bloodclaw Master do everything it does, only better and without ungodly horrible entry pre-reqs, but most of its class features can be replicated by feats.

Tempest Defense is equivalent to the Two-Weapon Defense line, and you notice how nobody is willing to spend a feat on that? Let alone 5 feats and a few levels? Ambidexterity can be partially replicated by the Oversized TWF feat. Two-Weapon Versatility can be replicated by simply taking Weapon Focus for the other weapon. Or not taking any of the short list of lame feats it works with. Or just using a matched pair of weapons. And the capstone, Two-Weapon Spring Attack, can be made to go sit in the corner by Dual Strike, which is available about 5 levels sooner, when it may be of some help.

[JaronK]

Well there's this one:
Warrior 5 / Pious Templar 5 / SBoH 10
All classes are Full BAB and since PT only has 10 levels of casting: SBoH's 5/10 casting is sufficient. All you are losing from PT is +1 DR, +2 uses of smite/day and a bonus feat.

Very clever sneaking Warrior in there. I'm actually really loving what people are doing with this silly little challenge. Though with that said, the bonus feat from PT could free up room for Ancestral Relic, which would likely be better than everything SBoH gives.

JaronK

[ArqArturo]

I would use that as an NPC, and when players excited over that thundering weapon, they'll look at me in anger when they realize it was a class feature all along.

*evil laughter*

[CyberThread]

Very clever sneaking Warrior in there. I'm actually really loving what people are doing with this silly little challenge. Though with that said, the bonus feat from PT could free up room for Ancestral Relic, which would likely be better than everything SBoH gives.

JaronK


what is gained by having warrior, rather then lets say fighter

[Vedhin]

what is gained by having warrior, rather then lets say fighter

Fighter gets bonus feats, which are better than SBoH. The challenge is to use as many levels of SBoH as possible, without another class in the build being better to have more levels in over the SBoH levels. And Fighters get stuff like Zhentarim Fighter goodies, and Dungeoncrasher.

[Aotrs Commander]

I suppose it's just cheating to say True Necromancer, isn't it?

Never quite got what was so bad about that class. I mean, it's about as good as Mystic Theurge in terms of casting (albiet giving you 13/13 casting at 20th) but unlike MT is has a few mediocre class features. Granted, the entry requirements are a bit meh, but still. Never struck me especially awesome (it's no Pale Master...1), but never especially as bad per se...




The Epic Mystic Theurge. Nothing else comes close.

This needs to be brought up again, becuase it is so important, it needs to be mentioned twice.

I have never seen a class that so fundementally defeats it's own entire point as the Epic Mystic Theurge.

You are literally better off taking the base classes that give you actual class features (as one epic feat every six levels is just insultingly pathetic).




Edit: I actually had to go look up SBoH to fully graps how terrible is is. And am dumbfounded that it made it onto my list of "approved" PrC classes (it isn't know, I can assure you!) I clearly didn't read it properly at the time...


1Animate Dead as an SLA is worth the whole class, since as an SLA, you don't pay for using it. FREE skeletons once per day, which means they really are disposable!

No, my necromancer bias is not showing, what do you mean!?

[Humble Master]

Looking through Complete Psionic I keep coming back to Ectopic Adept. First of all, the prerequisites are stupid (Skill Focus(Sculpting), seriously?) and the class features aren't that good.

[Scow2]

How has nobody noticed the poor Tempest from Complete Adventurer? Not only does the Bloodclaw Master do everything it does, only better and without ungodly horrible entry pre-reqs, but most of its class features can be replicated by feats.

Tempest Defense is equivalent to the Two-Weapon Defense line, and you notice how nobody is willing to spend a feat on that? Let alone 5 feats and a few levels? Ambidexterity can be partially replicated by the Oversized TWF feat. Two-Weapon Versatility can be replicated by simply taking Weapon Focus for the other weapon. Or not taking any of the short list of lame feats it works with. Or just using a matched pair of weapons. And the capstone, Two-Weapon Spring Attack, can be made to go sit in the corner by Dual Strike, which is available about 5 levels sooner, when it may be of some help.Well... Tempest came out LONG before Bloodclaw Master and ToB, so used the old martial idea behind balance. And, a character gets 20 class levels over the course of their career, but only 7 feats (Unless they're a fighter). And, even if you ARE a fighter, the tempest offers 5 feats over 5 levels, instead of 2 or 3 feats over 5 levels. The only problem with the class is the "Must be wearing light armor" to use its features. Otherwise, it would be good for a Two-weapon Fighter.

[Karnith]

Never quite got what was so bad about that class. I mean, it's about as good as Mystic Theurge in terms of castingNo, taking levels in True Necromancer makes you fall noticeably farther behind in casting than you would have been had you gone Mystic Theurge. A full spell level behind on both sides is pretty bad, especially when you're behind normal casters to start with.
but unlike MT is has a few mediocre class features.It has basically one class feature that is kind of okay if you have a very specialized build. If you've got caster-level stacking shenanigans going on, then Necromantic Prowess is pretty good, particularly with early-entry. Everything else the class gives you you would be better served getting through normal spellcasting, since it's basically just spell-like abilities and a supernatural Desecration.

If you aren't abusing the class, it gimps your character something awful. Having played several True Necromancer characters at varying levels of optimization, I can testify to the fact that it's an awful, awful class, and additionally unplayable at low levels.

[TypoNinja]

What really screws Mystic Thurge is that even compared to the rest of the thruge classes its bad.

All the other Thurge classes get class features to capitalize on their dual casting abilities. MT is just "Spells".

Its such a great premise, if only it came with some class features that took advantage, or ffs at least a couple of bonus metamagic feats. I'm a dual caster its safe to say I want all the metamagic ever.

[JaronK]

what is gained by having warrior, rather then lets say fighter

Because the challenge was to make a build that used Shining Blade of Heironeous where you couldn't make a better build just by removing SBoH levels and adding more levels of any other class you used to make the build. If he'd used Fighter in that build then more Fighter levels would have been clearly better... by using Warrior he removed that option.

Yes, you actually have to gimp your build and use NPC classes just to make the SBoH not look strictly worse than not taking it. The class is that bad. And that boring... your only ability is that your sword glows.

JaronK

[nedz]

Well there's this one:
Warrior 5 / Pious Templar 5 / SBoH 10
All classes are Full BAB and since PT only has 10 levels of casting: SBoH's 5/10 casting is sufficient. All you are losing from PT is +1 DR, +2 uses of smite/day and a bonus feat.
Very clever sneaking Warrior in there. I'm actually really loving what people are doing with this silly little challenge. Though with that said, the bonus feat from PT could free up room for Ancestral Relic, which would likely be better than everything SBoH gives.

JaronK

But if Warrior 5 / Pious Templar 5 / SBoH 10 takes VoP as early as possible ?

[JaronK]

Heh, then that's a terrible, terrible build. But yeah, I think that does at least get you glowier... fists or something, so there's that.

Whee SBoH optimizing!

JaronK

[Samalpetey]

I can't believe no one's mentioned the Cipher Adept yet

[Aotrs Commander]

What really screws Mystic Thurge is that even compared to the rest of the thruge classes its bad.

All the other Thurge classes get class features to capitalize on their dual casting abilities. MT is just "Spells".

Its such a great premise, if only it came with some class features that took advantage, or ffs at least a couple of bonus metamagic feats. I'm a dual caster its safe to say I want all the metamagic ever.

Well, granted, for generic multiclass PrC like MT I've dropped the requirements right down to allow entry at 3rd level... I think my problem with a modest amount of the other non-no-frills theurge-likes is that they are often a bit to specific.

(Besides, unless you're a druid - in which case whatever you take is arguably sub-optimal than Druid 20, most primary casters aren't loosing any class features worth much (Turn Undead (as if you'll have time with duel-casting to be doing!/a couple of bonus feats/nothing (if you're a Sorcerer!)).

Though granted, thinking about it, I might be tempted to have Practised Spellcaster added twice as part of the class features, since it's pretty much a requirement anyway...



Anyhow, compared to it's Epic version ANY duel progression is better...! Even TN...!

[Vaz]

I can't believe no one's mentioned the Cipher Adept yet

Because it's not useless. The Insight Bonuses are hard to get to AC or Initiative, the two feat taxes allow you to progress with the Mobility/Spring Attack Chain, which you actually get as part of the bonus feats, and you're a skill monkey; Balance and Listen should be taken anyway.

Base it off a Human Able Learner, and you're fine. The Ability to punch through walls, however, that's pretty cool. You're not actually gimping yourself by taking it.