OOTS #900 - The Discussion Thread

[Edhelras]

Domain slots are reserved for domain spells only. Domain spells that do not also appear on the standard Cleric list may only be prepared in domain slots. To illustrate, Redcloak gets the level 9 spell implosion, the level 8 spell earthquake, and the level 7 spell disintegrate from the Destruction domain. Implosion and earthquake appear on the standard Cleric list. Disintegrate does not. As such, Redcloak can prepare implosion in any level 9 spell slot, and he can prepare earthquake in any level 8 or level 9 spell slot. But he can only prepare disintegrate in level 7, level 8, and level 9 domain spell slots.

Another Huh. And to quote the SRD:
"If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot."

So, how come I never realized that myself? Well, those few times I play a cleric I almost always use Good and Healing domains, which don't have non-clerical spells. Or my favorite Cleric of Deneir, whose domain spells often fell like a waste even with one per day...

I stand corrected and is still young enough to learn (or old enough so that it's about time...)

[Azukar]

Go into the rift! Go go go go go!

I mean, at this point, what's the better alternative?

[Iberean]

What's with the feet (and partial legs) on top of the coffin? Is this an in-game joke that I'm missing?

As well as indicating what the stone box was, it is also possibly a reference to Ozymandius

"I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desart.....

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"...."

[VeliaRae]

So I wanted to get a post in before I read all the other comments this time. I may or may not have additional thoughts once I do so, but here we go.

WOW. So I was totally NOT on the "OotS enters the rift" bandwagon, but now I'm starting to consider hitchhiking with it a bit. I honestly thought the idea sounded totally implausible. But now, with a body of water in front of them and nothing but desert and Team Evil in their own dimension or whatever, it's totally starting to look like a possible avenue this story might go down. Especially since that'd be a great way to end this book. Huh. Who'da thought?

Although, should they do so, suddenly there's no one left on their own side of the rift to actively oppose Xykon in the race to Kraagor's gate. And that doesn't sound like a good idea. Plus, there's nothing that says a meteor swarm won't travel through the rift also. Perhaps this is where Tarquin will come back into play and rescue them from Xykon so they don't have to enter the rift.

That rift looks like it is exactly where V's body was though. V's gonna wake up either through it or directly under it. I wonder, if V is in the rift-world, can the IFCC still hold V's soul? Or is the other dimension so separate that it would somehow break their connection?

Oh geez. I cannot wait to see where this goes.

[Porthos]

I will say the most shocking thing to me is that Redcloak knows Roy's name. For some reason it takes me completely by surprise. I make it a point in the games I run to always make that scenario an incredibly bad thing.

It's not the first time he mentioned his name. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html)

And it's not like anything bad happened to Roy a few strips later...

...

Wait. Never mind. :smalltongue:

[Menas]

Anything's possible, I guess, but to me the whole image is just to give some sense of depth, and the white part is just some weird part of the light or trans-dimensional mist.
Like I said, if The Giant wanted us to see a beach, he could very easily have done so in a way that wasn't as obscure.

It's called foreshadowing. It's not like the Giant has never subtly hinted at things before they've happened before (not that I'm speculating on this particular subject one way or the other).

If the Giant wanted people to see a beach clearly, they'd see a beach clearly. If he wanted to hint that something else might be there that could warrant further investigation, he could do so in many different ways. This might be one of them. It's fair to have an informed opinion, but for anyone to say that they definitely know what the Giant is going to do or is hinting at/not hinting at with no room for error - that's an over-reach.

[Deepbluediver]

It's called foreshadowing. It's not like the Giant has never subtly hinted at things before they've happened before...

I know what forshadowing is, and yes the Giant has done it before, but usually in a story-related way; something like naming a character Girard Draketooth. It can be done visually, such as giving Malak pale skin.

But, AFAIK, its never done in such a way so as to be hinted at by a small sliver of color that in a single panel. Not that that stops people from ARGUING over such things, heavens no!
Looking back at previous foreshadowing, most of it I can say "yeah, in hindsight that makes sense". Looking at this, TRYING to find a beach, and all I see is some white shading at the edge of a portal.

[Kish]

It occurs to me that Redcloak gives Roy the acknowledgement he craves, remembering his name and treating him as the primary antagonist to the team Redcloak's on.

But of course Roy doesn't value that; he wants acknowledgement from the main villain, not some mere goblin lackey. It's like they're in Sartre's No Exit.

[Oko and Qailee]

No joke, the order actually has a chance if Xykon is inconvenienced at all by the fact that he's half skeleton.

That being said, they probably have to escape. The LG could be anywhere.

[Tragak]

Go into the rift! Go go go go go!

No, it's :elan: Go, Go, Go, Go into the rift! :smalltongue:

[Oko and Qailee]

I really don't think there is a snarl.

We have 0 first hand evidence that the snarl exists. All the information we have received has been told to us via someone else.

[GuesssWho]

Funny, I was just watching a show about prehistoric seas. Now I'm imagining that the sea on the other side of that portal has, like, trilobites and ****.

[Paisley]

I will say the most shocking thing to me is that Redcloak knows Roy's name. For some reason it takes me completely by surprise. I make it a point in the games I run to always make that scenario an incredibly bad thing.



It's not the first time he mentioned his name. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html)

Yeah, I just realized that too. Not sure why I was so surprised Redcloak recognized him. I guess Xykon's "who is this Redblade fellow?" thing has been going on for so long I've started to subconsciously assign the attitude to the rest of Team Evil as well.

As for the rift, I can see how that grayish sliver could look like a beach. Personally, though, I think it's just part of the haze of purpley-grey rift light. The rift in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), for example, has the same color-scheme, rift-wise. Those rings of color surrounding the planet? Pretty clear it's just artistic effect; it doesn't indicate that the universe has suddenly turned pink. Girard's rift is just more triangular in shape, which accounts for that stray bit of color.

...I need to stop spamming the word "rift." :smalltongue:

[Arrowstorm122]

It's been way too long since I've seen the party not just get completely stomped on. They have been woefully outmatched in every single situation since their ambush of the Linear Guild. I usually love me a dark storyline, but I just feel bad for them all the time now.

The curse of reading it comic to comic with days or weeks between, instead of a book where it's just minutes.




I really don't think there is a snarl.

We have 0 first hand evidence that the snarl exists. All the information we have received has been told to us via someone else.

That's almost obvious now, with V mentioning it, and this info ending book 4, and them probably entering the rift ending book 5.

[Glich]

it's been a while since I last played....but Roy should survive one disintegrate, right? Right? :smallfrown:
at full heath definitely. after playing human cannon ball in the box not sure. I am pretty sure plot armor is in play killing him again now would be a bad idea. The order is already down one member and one is on deathwatch.

[Lockmund]

This is my first post, but I've followed the forum for a while. I just had to register and share my theory with you all.

The heroes are missing (after a fashion) both of their casters and Xykon's robe took quite a beating. Isn't this the perfect time for the OOtS to find a certain gem that's been in his left pocket since Start of Darkness?

[Arrowstorm122]

at full heath definitely. after playing human cannon ball in the box not sure. I am pretty sure plot armor is in play killing him again now would be a bad idea. The order is already down one member and one is on deathwatch.

Elan did heal them, he has no scratches just before he is hit by disintegrate.


This is my first post, but I've followed the forum for a while. I just had to register and share my theory with you all.

The heroes are missing (after a fashion) both of their casters and Xykon's robe took quite a beating. Isn't this the perfect time for the OOtS to find a certain gem that's been in his left pocket since Start of Darkness?

Didn't think about that, being able to talk with them and introducing the gem in the actual comic would be interesting if they enter the rift. Although I do wonder how they will consider "grab his pelvis!" a logical thing to do. Unless somebody just picks up the gem randomly, like Elan or Belkar.

[The Pilgrim]

Really?

The OOTS escapes thanks to one of the lamest and most ridiculous scenes in the story of the film industry?

Come on. Now you have definitely killed my suspension of disbelief. :smallfurious:

You know, not that ten years of breaking the fourth wall would have already broken it by now. Seriously. :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

...wait. Is the punchline only a sign of MitD's lack of ranks in Knowledge (anatomy) or does he have a real reason to differentiate between left and right pelvis?!? Like, say, having two of them himself?

Actually, there really is such a thing as a Right and Left pelvis, which are joined by ligaments to make a whole pelvis.

So this could be an indication that the MitD actually HAS ranks in Knowledge (anatomy).

See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/med/pelvis.gif

[Oko and Qailee]

Really?

The OOTS escapes thanks to one of the lamest and most ridiculous scenes in the story of the film industry?

Come on. Now you have definitely killed my suspension of disbelief. :smallfurious:

You know, not that ten years of breaking the fourth wall would have already broken it by now. Seriously. :smalltongue:

The difference is that it makes sense for a high fantasy setting, where heroes are well beyond the capabilities of a human.

In contrast, Indiana Jones is assumed to be 100% a normal person.

[TRH]

No joke, the order actually has a chance if Xykon is inconvenienced at all by the fact that he's half skeleton.


He isn't. Between Overland Flight and Still Spell, he could just be a skull and be as deadly as ever. That'd be fun to watch, actually. :smallbiggrin:

[Arrowstorm122]

Actually, there really is such a thing as a Right and Left pelvis, which are joined by ligaments to make a whole pelvis.

So this could be an indication that the MitD actually HAS ranks in Knowledge (anatomy).

See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/med/pelvis.gif

Wouldn't be a joke then though. and Xykon did ask for his pelvis, not pelvises or one of his pelvises.

[rodneyAnonymous]

The OOTS escapes thanks to one of the lamest and most ridiculous scenes in the story of the film industry?

The IJ scene is lame because a refrigerator would not protect you from a nuclear explosion. A thick stone coffin, as others have described, might protect you from other kinds.

[AstralFire]

As I've said elsewhere - I think it's too late in the story for EVERYTHING WE KNEW to be wrong about the Snarl and Cosmology. We're clearly way underinformed, but I don't think the information is false so much as terribly outdated.

[Alex Warlorn]

I wonder how many seconds it would take Xykon to kill Redcloak if they were told the Snarl didn't exist?

[Razanir]

Roy's gonna be fine, it looks like he wasn't even injured before he got blasted, and he can Fort save with the best of 'em.

Yes, but I also recall the incident where he was immobilized by Con-draining poison

[Morty]

He isn't. Between Overland Flight and Still Spell, he could just be a skull and be as deadly as ever. That'd be fun to watch, actually. :smallbiggrin:

He doesn't even need Still spell. His arms are intact, so he can just fly around and blast the Order without too much inconvenience.

[Oko and Qailee]

Yes, but I also recall the incident where he was immobilized by Con-draining poison

It was Strenght draining poison, not Con.

Either way, that poison has no relevance to what is going on now.

[Porthos]

The title of this strip has been bugging me a little. More often than not, there is a secondary meaning to it. Or some pop-culture reference. But for the life of me, I couldn't figure out what.

TO GOOGLE!!!

There's a Hole in the Middle of the Sea (http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/theresaholemp3.htm)


There's a hole in the middle of the sea
There's a hole in the middle of the sea
There's a hole, there's a hole
There's a hole in the middle of the sea

There's a log in the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a log in the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a log, there's a log
There's a log in the hole in the middle of the sea

There's a bump on the log in the hole
In the middle of the sea
There's a bump on the log in the hole
In the middle of the sea
There's a bump, there's a bump
There's a bump on the log in the hole
In the middle of the sea

There's a frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a frog, there's a frog
There's a frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea

There's a fly on the frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a fly on the frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a fly, there's a fly
There's a fly on the frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea

There's a wing on the fly on the frog
On the bump on the log in the hole
In the middle of the sea
There's a wing on the fly on the frog
On the bump on the log in the hole
In the middle of the sea
There's a wing, there's a wing
There's a wing on the fly on the frog
On the bump on the log in the hole
In the middle of the sea

There's a flea on the wing on the fly
On the frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a flea on the wing on the fly
On the frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea
There's a flea, there's a flea
There's a flea on the wing on the fly
On the frog on the bump on the log
In the hole in the middle of the sea?

This CAN'T be a coincidence? Can it?

Seems to be a semi-well known children's song that I was previously unaware of.


'Hole in the Middle' of what?...desert?...Rift?...Snarl?...ocean?...plot?

Sea, apparently. :smallsmile:

[Oko and Qailee]

As I've said elsewhere - I think it's too late in the story for EVERYTHING WE KNEW to be wrong about the Snarl and Cosmology. We're clearly way underinformed, but I don't think the information is false so much as terribly outdated.

But we knew so little to begin with.

We knew 3 things:
1) Snarl exists and was mae by the gods
2) it undoes threads of existence
3) it supposedly killed Soon Kim's wife.

If anything, subverting our expectations regarding the snarl makes for a better story in this case, not a worse one, because the snarl is an opponent you can't study/learn about on a personal level. There a reason why, in most fantasy-esque themed stories, the good guys are always just slightly too late to stop the demonic BBEG from showing up.

Once we're informed of it, the story is anti-climactic if the monster we're informed of doesn't make an appearance simply because "the good guys stopped it in time."

The problem with the snarl is that, if it's released as per it's description of it's capabilities, there is 0% chance creation wouldn't be undone.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Oh no Roy ... not again :smallfrown:

[Kish]

You know, I wonder if Rich thought about having Redcloak cast Disintegrate at Roy enough to realize that, by depicting that and not showing Roy afterward, he would make, "Is Roy still alive?!!!!!" the next Big Question on the forum.

[Hendel]

Disintegrate is also a 'Long' range spell. Redcloak could easily be sniping Roy at about 1000 feet or so. The only person who has even a hope of attacking back is Haley.

Then again, Redcloak isn't a sorcerer, he has only so many Disintegrates.
It's a wonderful maneuver and targeted at the enemy leader, but Roy is still the most likely to survive it.

In an ordinary setting, the Order could duck amongst the dunes, lose line of sight, and make an escape, but I think we all know that's not going to happen. Not with Tarquin, Nale, and everyone else on the field. :)
For the record Disintegrate is a Medium range spell so it should be under 300 feet unless Redcloak is over 20th level. You are also correct that it is a 7th level spell on the Destruction domain so he will only have one. All this is true IF the Giant cares and is following any of the actual game rules.

Xykon on the other hand is known to have many long range spell, most notably Meteor Swarm!

Either way, Haley should have no problem shooting back at 300 feet or less. It is just probably not a smart move to try and stay and defend at this point.

[Paisley]

The title of this strip has been bugging me a little. More often than not, there is a secondary meaning to it. Or some pop-culture reference. But for the life of me, I couldn't figure out what.

TO GOOGLE!!!

There's a Hole in the Middle of the Sea (http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/theresaholemp3.htm)

This CAN'T be a coincidence? Can it?

Seems to be a semi-well known children's song that I was previously unaware of.

Huh. I always thought it was "There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea." :smallconfused:

[zimmerwald1915]

You are also correct that it is a 7th level spell on the Destruction domain so he will only have one.
For the third time, he could have as many as three disintegrates prepared without bending or breaking any 3.5 rules at all.

[Porthos]

Huh. I always thought it was "There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea." :smallconfused:

Google Results:

"Hole in the Middle of the Sea" 11,500,000 results
"Hole in the Bottom of the Sea" 1,920,000 results

Both come up on auto suggest, fwiw.

Could be the difference between the UK and US, as I look about.* Also as I look about Bottom of the Sea was referenced on Family Guy (http://familyguy.wikia.com/wiki/There's_a_Hole_in_the_Bottom_of_the_Sea)

Dunno, really. Just finding out about this now. :smallsmile:

* ETA: Though possibly not as here is a vid of school children in Michigan singing Hole in the Middle of the Sea. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M-Hf27Cnyg)

I guess like many folk songs, there are variations. :smallsmile:

[Kancsar]

They took damage--look at panel 4, though not much. Then in the next panel, Elan cast Mass Cure Light Wounds, so the damage is gone after that.

agreed. i edited my comment to be fairer to the comic.

[Lombard]

I know what forshadowing is, and yes the Giant has done it before, but usually in a story-related way; something like naming a character Girard Draketooth. It can be done visually, such as giving Malak pale skin.

But, AFAIK, its never done in such a way so as to be hinted at by a small sliver of color that in a single panel. Not that that stops people from ARGUING over such things, heavens no!
Looking back at previous foreshadowing, most of it I can say "yeah, in hindsight that makes sense". Looking at this, TRYING to find a beach, and all I see is some white shading at the edge of a portal.

I'm pretty sure he's done that sort of thing before, where something happens a strip or two later and then you go back and see there's just a bit of drawing setting it up. If I was highly motivated I'd go back and find it for you but I'm not. Besides we can probably at least agree that it will answer itself fairly soon anyways yes?

[titan_monarch]

There's a Hole in the Middle of the Sea (http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/theresaholemp3.htm)


This struck me as somehow familiar, but I knew I'd never heard it before - so I did a bit of past-thread searching (thanks Google!) and found this, which I can't resist quoting. Enjoy courtesy of Incom.


There's a party on the illusion of the temple on the gate on the hole in the bottom of the multiverse.
There's a party, there's a party,
There's a party on the illusion of the temple on the gate on the hole in the bottom of the multiverse!

There's a cat with the party on the illusion of the temple on the gate on the hole in the bottom of the multiverse...

[prism6691]

For the third time, he could have as many as three disintegrates prepared without bending or breaking any 3.5 rules at all.

Please cite the rule where clerics can prepare disintegrate outside the 1 domain slot for the destruction domain. Please, if so I'm playing clerics wrong.

[HalfTangible]

For the record Disintegrate is a Medium range spell so it should be under 300 feet unless Redcloak is over 20th level. You are also correct that it is a 7th level spell on the Destruction domain so he will only have one. All this is true IF the Giant cares and is following any of the actual game rules.

I recall that there was an instance where it was posited that Miko couldn't be the entire OotS in 1-on-6 combat, even if Durkon stayed out of the fight. Rich proceeded to break down, in no uncertain terms, EXACTLY how the fight would've gone down between the panel of Roy telling Miko to screw herself and the punchline of them all being chained up and led on the railroad plot.

I think he DOES pay attention to the rules, just doesn't treat 'em as unbreakable as they would be in a regular game, especially in instances where playing it more abstract ends up with a more story-appropriate or dramatic outcome.

After all, at the end of the day, he's controlling the Order's natural twenties as easily as the plot.


Please cite the rule where clerics can prepare disintegrate outside the 1 domain slot for the destruction domain. Please, if so I'm playing clerics wrong.

I believe the gist was that you could put a disintegrate in it's own leveled domain slot, then every slot above it, so Redcloak could prepare it 3 times if he really wanted to cast disintegrate a lot.

[Porthos]

Please cite the rule where clerics can prepare disintegrate outside the 1 domain slot for the destruction domain. Please, if so I'm playing clerics wrong.

Domain Spell Level 7
Domain Spell Level 8
Domain Spell Level 9

It'd be sub-optimal. But RAW legal. :smallsmile:

[Knight.Anon]

Roy should be alive. If he were dead he would be a pile of ash.

[prism6691]

Domain Spell Level 7
Domain Spell Level 8
Domain Spell Level 9

It'd be sub-optimal. But RAW legal. :smallsmile:

I thought you have to prepare every domain spell, as far as I know you can't get rid of the higher ones to repeat a lower one.

"...If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot." I assume that means in the slot it says only.

[Kish]

...Huh? Have to prepare every domain spell? How could that even be possible? Clerics have two domains; are you under the impression each level has two domain slots?

[Porthos]

I thought you have to prepare every domain spell, as far as I know you can't get rid of the higher ones to repeat a lower one.

"...If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot." I assume that means in the slot it says only.

Any lower level spell can be prepared in a higher level slot. But for domains, they'd have to go into a domain slot.

[Tock Zipporah]

For the third time, he could have as many as three disintegrates prepared without bending or breaking any 3.5 rules at all.

And he could have scrolls or a staff. So he can cast as many as he wants.

[ellindsey]

Roy should be alive. If he were dead he would be a pile of ash.

We don't know he isn't. The 'visible skeleton' effect is shown even when the target is turned to ash in the next panel, as happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)with Kubota. Although I suspect Roy wasn't killed, we can't rule it out based on this comic.

[prism6691]

...Huh? Have to prepare every domain spell? How could that even be possible? Clerics have two domains; are you under the impression each level has two domain slots?

No I didn't type that right I meant if someone prepares the Destruction Domain

you have to prepare

Destruction Domain Spells

Inflict Light Wounds:
Shatter:
Contagion:
Inflict Critical Wounds:
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass:
Harm:
Disintegrate:
Earthquake:
Implosion:

What I meant to say was you can not say I don't want to prepare earthquake let me prepare disintegrate again

That is at least how I thought it worked with domain spells anyway

[Tock Zipporah]

Domain Spell Level 7
Domain Spell Level 8
Domain Spell Level 9

It'd be sub-optimal. But RAW legal. :smallsmile:

He could also be more "optimal" by preparing a level 9 Empowered Heightened Disintegrate. Which would be quite deadly (34d6×1.5=X.X)

[Porthos]

Gotta run, so I'll make this quick:

Divine Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm)

Spell Slots
The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.

These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.


Spell Selection and Preparation
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, such a character’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists. A cleric also has access to two domains determined during his character creation. Each domain gives him access to a domain spell at each spell level from 1st to 9th, as well as a special granted power. With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot.
(my bolds for emphasis)

Note is says "a" Domain slot, not "the" domain slot.

And before you say "picky picky", people have argued over less when it comes to RAW. :smalltongue:

[prism6691]

Gotta run, so I'll make this quick:

Divine Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm)



(my bolds for emphasis)

Note is says "a" Domain slot, not "the" domain slot.

And before you say "picky picky", people have argued over less when it comes to RAW. :smalltongue:

Ah, I concede the point. Its funny how one word can alter the meaning like that.

[gorocz]

You know, I wonder if Rich thought about having Redcloak cast Disintegrate at Roy enough to realize that, by depicting that and not showing Roy afterward, he would make, "Is Roy still alive?!!!!!" the next Big Question on the forum.

If I should venture a guess, I'd say he was fully aware such a debate would occur. Rich likes cliffhangers, as far as I can tell from the past 900 strips :-) My avatar was a product of one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html)... :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

That is at least how I thought it worked with domain spells anyway
It doesn't. If a Cleric, say, has seventeen levels and the Law and Destruction domains, here is a breakdown of how he can prepare his spells in his domain slots:


level 9: any level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 spell from either the Law of Destruction domains;
level 8: any level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 7: any level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 6: any level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 5; any level 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 4: any level 1, 2, 3, or 4 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 3: any level 1, 2, or 3 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 2: any level 1 or 2 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains;
level 1: any level 1 spell from either the Law or Destruction domains.


Which just goes to reinforce Tock Zippora's point: Redcloak can cast as many disintegrates as Rich wants him to cast, and without needing to bend or break a single rule. D&D is really quite accommodating sometimes.

EDIT: darnit, Porthos, why'd you have to go and do that...

[Adeptus]

Ok, some of you totally called it.

That's one well nuked fridge :belkar:

Awesome roach indie as a bonus.

[Tock Zipporah]

This is my first post, but I've followed the forum for a while. I just had to register and share my theory with you all.

The heroes are missing (after a fashion) both of their casters and Xykon's robe took quite a beating. Isn't this the perfect time for the OOtS to find a certain gem that's been in his left pocket since Start of Darkness?

Wouldn't that gem have been part of the loot (and thus sold) from when they killed Xykon the first time?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html

If V took the ring of wizardry off Xykon's charred finger bone and Roy took the crown, the gem should have been looted too. And Xykon would have just gotten a new blue robe later (after all, Redcloak carries spares http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html)

[Sith_Happens]

Redcloak sure likes Disintegrating people with good Fortitude saves, doesn't he?

[Incom]

This struck me as somehow familiar, but I knew I'd never heard it before - so I did a bit of past-thread searching (thanks Google!) and found this, which I can't resist quoting. Enjoy courtesy of Incom.

BAHAHAHAHA

I completely forgot about that post! Man I love the internet sometimes.

Oh, and I only had heard of that song because it was in a VeggieTales episode. No, I don't remember when that was, don't ask. :smallcool:

(And yes, it was Bottom of the Sea.)

[Tragak]

Redcloak sure likes Disintegrating people with good Fortitude saves, doesn't he? Well, he probably doesn't waste powerful spells on weak opponents or vice versa, so yeah, I think it makes sense.

[Mattarias, King.]

I swear Roy, if you roll a 1 on that save, I'm gonna go to the afterlife and drag you back myself.

[Porthos]

Wouldn't that gem have been part of the loot (and thus sold) from when they killed Xykon the first time?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html

If V took the ring of wizardry off Xykon's charred finger bone and Roy took the crown, the gem should have been looted too. And Xykon would have just gotten a new blue robe later (after all, Redcloak carries spares http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html)

Yes, but the circlet that helpes power Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) was still in Xykon's possession, even though it theoretically should have blown up.

So if that can still be in Xykon's possessions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), so to can the soul gem.

[Forikroder]

now its time for the IFCC to reveal themselves as the true villains and for OoTS and TE to join forces




Tarquin and white albino lizard guy whos name escapes me can come too

[rodneyAnonymous]

Redcloak sure likes Disintegrating people with good Fortitude saves, doesn't he?

Uh he likes casting damage spells at targets? Disintegrate isn't save or die, it is damage (2d6 per caster level) or save for less damage (5d6 period).

Roy will almost certainly survive even if he failed his save. According to D&D rules, death is unlikely. According to storytelling conventions, death is unlikely.

[Menas]

I know what forshadowing is, and yes the Giant has done it before, but usually in a story-related way; something like naming a character Girard Draketooth. It can be done visually, such as giving Malak pale skin.

But, AFAIK, its never done in such a way so as to be hinted at by a small sliver of color that in a single panel. Not that that stops people from ARGUING over such things, heavens no!
Looking back at previous foreshadowing, most of it I can say "yeah, in hindsight that makes sense". Looking at this, TRYING to find a beach, and all I see is some white shading at the edge of a portal.

That makes more sense. It's not that you're saying the Giant couldn't do it that way, just that it doesn't fit in with his normal pattern of doing things.

Which is a fair statement. However, when I looked at the picture of the border of the rift portal again, I noticed that the one part on the bottom does seen to be drawn slightly differently than the other sides.

Which makes me wonder if it was deliberate. Personally, I think they'd all have to be completely crazy to jump into the rift unless they were absolutely sure they were going to die otherwise, even if a beach was completely and obviously visible to them. The evil that you know is preferable to the evil you don't know. They have no way of knowing what the nature of the other world is, and they've been warned about the snarl countless times. And how would they get back? How could they be sure they could get back even if they think they could get back?

[Skull the Troll]

Maybe after the Scribbles sealed the gates the Snarl brooded and in the end chose to transform into a new world that would slowly expand (whether or not depending on the gates' condition) and so explode and/or replace the existing world. After all the Snarl is made of world building material.

I always real it as the snarl is made of the conflict the gods had in creating a world. It even specifically states that the snarl doesn't understand the act of creation, which is why it didn't react to the creation of the gates in the first place.

[Rising Phoenix]

Can we now say that Belkar's alignment has officially shifted?

[TRH]

Can we now say that Belkar's alignment has officially shifted?

Considering just how many people consider Vaarsuvius Neutral Evil for life, I'm gonna say no.

[Kareasint]

The IFCC's move makes sense now. If the gate had not been destroyed, the order probably would have been swept aside easily by TE. This way, the chaos continues.

[Forikroder]

Can we now say that Belkar's alignment has officially shifted?

what did he do in this comic to make people think that?

[dps]

He isn't. Between Overland Flight and Still Spell, he could just be a skull and be as deadly as ever. That'd be fun to watch, actually. :smallbiggrin:

He would retain the ability to be deadly, but he might be too distracted to bother. OTOH, he might be really, really ticked, which tends to focus his otherwise wandering attention. :smallbiggrin:

[Stiletto]

And then, from out of the rift, the opposite aligned Belkar falls onto our Belkar, killing him. The new Belkar joins the party and slowly, over the course of many strips, descends into the CEvilness that was old Belkar. Oh, and that one has a goatee.

Just throwing it out there. See if it sticks!

[Forikroder]

And then, from out of the rift, the opposite aligned Belkar falls onto our Belkar, killing him. The new Belkar joins the party and slowly, over the course of many strips, descends into the CEvilness that was old Belkar. Oh, and that one has a goatee.

Just throwing it out there. See if it sticks!

rift belkar would be a Paladin with a sprinkle of monk would be female, entirely serious at all times and anal on the smallest details

huh Miko is literally the exact opposite of Belkar

[TRH]

He would retain the ability to be deadly, but he might be too distracted to bother. OTOH, he might be really, really ticked, which tends to focus his otherwise wandering attention. :smallbiggrin:

I can't be the only one imagining Xykon firing Still Meteor Swarms and Still Lightning Bolts out of his mouth. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphiox]

Wouldn't be a joke then though. and Xykon did ask for his pelvis, not pelvises or one of his pelvises.

It would still be a joke. The joke being that the explosion did even more damage than Xykon thought it did, and his two hemi-pelvises went flying away in opposite directions.

[Amphiox]

Domain Spell Level 7
Domain Spell Level 8
Domain Spell Level 9

It'd be sub-optimal. But RAW legal. :smallsmile:

Considering that Implosion was Redcloak's new toy that he showed off just a short time ago, it seems quite unlikely that he wouldn't prepare it.

But Earthquake might be a spell Redcloak would choose NOT to prepare knowing he was about to enter a pyramid.

So if he was thinking strategically (and we know he does), he might have prepared two Disintegrates....

[Amphiox]

Can we now say that Belkar's alignment has officially shifted?

So he saved his allies (evil people can have friends), and in the process saved himself?

Doesn't sound to me like that would be enough. He still reads to me like a Chaotic Evil person who has only just started to think about how being Chaotic Evil sucks and only just started thinking that maybe, kind-of, perhaps, sort-of he doesn't want to be Chaotic Evil anymore, and hasn't even yet fully decided to actually committing to wanting to change.

[Deepbluediver]

what did he do in this comic to make people think that?

Some people seem to have the impression that alignment-shift is like picking out a new shirt; its easy to switch whenever it's convenient.
Alignment doesn't work that way!
To be fair, alignment is treated with all kinds of stupid in the published sources, and it regularly starts long, pointless arguments that lead to the Mods whacking people with rules-stick (slightly less serious than the ban-hammer).

But from a story-telling perspective, I think that alignment shift would be something difficult to achieve, and very rare since it represents a fundamental change in the characters world-view, beliefs, and associated behaviors. I mean, look at all the crap Miko pulled before the 12 gods finally stepped in and said "Yeah, this has gone too far".

[zimmerwald1915]

Considering that Implosion was Redcloak's new toy that he showed off just a short time ago, it seems quite unlikely that he wouldn't prepare it.

But Earthquake might be a spell Redcloak would choose NOT to prepare knowing he was about to enter a pyramid.

So if he was thinking strategically (and we know he does), he might have prepared two Disintegrates....
Both implosion and earthquake can be found on the standard Cleric list, and as such Redcloak can prepare them in his standard spell slots. He does not have to prepare them in his domain slots in order to have them at his disposal. Disintegrate, however must (unless the Giant says otherwise even though he wouldn't need to) be prepared in a domain slot.

Heck, if Redcloak really wanted to, he could prepare miracle in one or more of his standard level 9 slots and use that to mimic disintegrate, letting the Giant have him cast the spell four or more times per day without even having to resort to items. Going to these lengths is a bit silly, but the option is there.

[TRH]

Heck, if Redcloak really wanted to, he could prepare miracle in one or more of his standard level 9 slots and use that to mimic disintegrate, letting the Giant have him cast the spell four or more times per day without even having to resort to items. Going to these lengths is a bit silly, but the option is there.

If Redcloak had a Miracle prepared, I imagine he could just have the OOTS teleported into a volcano or something. Seems like a bit of a waste to use a spell like that and not go for a TPK.

[e1_conquistador]

It's disintegrate, and Redcloak has to pretty much know that Roy's the worst possible member of the OOTS to cast it on; the odds of Roy of all people blowing a fort save are low. He pretty much hit him out of irritation; Haley or Elan would have been far more pragmatic targets, with Belkar somewhere in the middle.

"A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6)...A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage."

Still no snarl; looks like the I like that Belkar is getting to be the idea man of the party, almost as much as I like Indiana Roach. How they're going to avoid getting steamroled by Team Evil, I have no idea...

Happy #900 Rich..!

[Gift Jeraff]

Belkar will be killed by a vengeful demon-roach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html).

[Forikroder]

It's disintegrate, and Redcloak has to pretty much know that Roy's the worst possible member of the OOTS to cast it on; the odds of Roy of all people blowing a fort save are low. He pretty much hit him out of irritation; Haley or Elan would have been far more pragmatic targets, with Belkar somewhere in the middle.

"A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6)...A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage."

I like that Belkar is getting to be the idea man of the party, almost as much as I like Indiana Roach. How they're going to avoid getting steamroled by Team Evil, I have no idea...
Redcloak knows roy has to die, he knows Roy is really the only person trying to stop him, if he can kill roy (and rpevent him from coming back) then he effectivley has noone in his way anymore

if TE and OoTS were evenly matched then it makes sense for Redcloak to pick a more effecient target but there not the OoTS can only escape and redcloak wants to ensure that Roy doesnt

[Oko and Qailee]

Considering just how many people consider Vaarsuvius Neutral Evil for life, I'm gonna say no.

The people who think that are wrongly equating "current alignment" for "destination in the afterlife"

If V spent the rest of his/her life doing good deeds, it's clear V would be a good person at the time V is doing good deeds. That doesn't mean V would go to a good afterlife ofc.

Belkar lately has not been behaving Chaotic Evil (well, not very, point is he's closer to CN now), however he hasn't made up for his lifetime of bad deeds and would most likely still go to a CE afterlife.

And that's all I'll say on the issue bc I know these discussing things like this is wrong out of context.

[David Argall]

I don't understand why people are so surprised that Redcloak remembers Roy. I mean, Roy killed Xykon and destroyed Dorukan's gate. He was also a somewhat major part of the Battle of Azure City. So I'm fairly certain Redcloak knows who he is enough to be mildly annoyed by his appearance.
Roy was hardly a major part of the Azure City battle, at least from Redcloak's view. He jumped on the dragon and got killed. After that, X returned to schedule, making Roy a footnote in the battle report at most. Now he is seeing Roy from [vaguely calculated] 80 yards, meaning he briefly sees a figure about the size of the figure that Elan heals. So he is supposed to quickly identify from a great distance, a figure he has assumed was dead and gone, a figure he does not deem a major bother. [We might note here that Red was unable to identify V whose actions at the battle were major and should have been viewed by Red at least as much as Roy.]

On the subject of V, if we assume the geometry is accurate [a clearly questionable point in a stick comic], V is already in the rift. [Of course, he could have been blown clear or something, but that rift grew quite a bit and if she didn't move, the elf will be waiting for the party on that beach [which may just be a piece of color.]

[Oko and Qailee]

I mean, look at all the crap Miko pulled before the 12 gods finally stepped in and said "Yeah, this has gone too far".

Nothing Miko did was really evil until she killed Shojo tho

rude =/= evil

[Forikroder]

The people who think that are wrongly equating "current alignment" for "destination in the afterlife"

If V spent the rest of his/her life doing good deeds, it's clear V would be a good person at the time V is doing good deeds. That doesn't mean V would go to a good afterlife ofc.

Belkar lately has not been behaving Chaotic Evil (well, not very, point is he's closer to CN now), however he hasn't made up for his lifetime of bad deeds and would most likely still go to a CE afterlife.

And that's all I'll say on the issue bc I know these discussing things like this is wrong out of context.

if what your saying is true Roy would never have made it to the mountain since the celestial evens aids his actions scream Lawful Neutral

im willing to bet if V died now hed wind up in a neutral aligned afterlife while familicide was a terrible action he has shown extreme levels of guilt and repentance at every step one evil act does not make someone evil and the afterlifes look more at the alignment and intent of the person then a simple look at there actions in life

[zimmerwald1915]

If Redcloak had a Miracle prepared, I imagine he could just have the OOTS teleported into a volcano or something. Seems like a bit of a waste to use a spell like that and not go for a TPK.
I think I may have understated my point when I called using miracle to cast four or more disintegrates "a bit silly". Would "very silly" be more appropriate? "Superlatively silly"? :smalltongue:


On the subject of V, if we assume the geometry is accurate [a clearly questionable point in a stick comic], V is already in the rift.
Why? V started out under the Gate, and there is a clearly visible chasm (well, more like a trench; it's not THAT deep) below the Rift, which is floating unsupported in space the way Rifts tend to do. The blast would have directed her down as well. Why assume V is not still in the chasm?

[Giggling Ghast]

Now he is seeing Roy from [vaguely calculated] 80 yards, meaning he briefly sees a figure about the size of the figure that Elan heals. So he is supposed to quickly identify from a great distance, a figure he has assumed was dead and gone, a figure he does not deem a major bother.

At 80 yards, Redcloak can at least identify a bald, black human. And since Roy is the only bald, black human involved in the conflict over the Gates —*unless Samuel L. Jackson jumped in while I wasn't looking — it would not be out of the question to conclude said human is Roy.

Also, just because Xykon doesn't think much of the plucky adventurers doesn't mean Redcloak dismisses them.

[Oko and Qailee]

if what your saying is true Roy would never have made it to the mountain since the celestial evens aids his actions scream Lawful Neutral


No, because you're forgetting that intent is part of alignment. Roy's intent has always been to be lawful and good. That's what the Deva means when she says "you're trying."

Roy has mostly been Lawful and Good and therefore made it into the LG afterlife. Even if he did a few chaotic acts he's still LG. If anything this is consistent with what I am saying. Your current alignment at death doesn't determine your afterlife, it is the entirety of your life that matters.

Belkar could currently be CN and he would still go to CE afterlife because for the majority of his life both his intent and actions were CE.



im willing to bet if V died now hed wind up in a neutral aligned afterlife while familicide was a terrible action he has shown extreme levels of guilt and repentance at every step one evil act does not make someone evil and the afterlifes look more at the alignment and intent of the person then a simple look at there actions in life

I agree, one evil act does not make someone evil, which is why I think I would still define V as NN.

BUT that doesn't mean V will go to a NN afterlife, if the degree of the evil act is bad enough it's enough to change your entire afterlife.

The Deva (which you brought up) supports this idea as well. Roy is consistently Good, but the Deva points out that if he had actually abandoned Elan to the Thieves (a long time ago), he wouldn't have gotten into the mountain, and Roy abandoning Elan is a lot smaller of an issue as "I murdered thousands of people who have never effected me in anyway"

[Oko and Qailee]

Now he is seeing Roy from [vaguely calculated] 80 yards, meaning he briefly sees a figure about the size of the figure that Elan heals.

Except, we already established this is a fantasy universe, not real life.

Redcloaks wisdom is probably way higher than any humans IRL. So what may be hard to see for you is a short distance for him and wisdom implies he is able to think fairly quickly.

[Mido]

First thing that came to my mind after reading the entire strip was that was one tough umbrella of darkness. Thought we'd have a glimpse of MITD had that blast reached Team Evil.

As it all sunk in, the next thing that came was, hoping Roy was okay and that the OOTSers should honor their most tested, tried and true tactic since Dungeon Crawling Fools... RUN!!! :smalleek:

[zimmerwald1915]

Except, we already established this is a fantasy universe, not real life.
It's actually much easier to resolve details over long distances, even with the mark one eyeball, in real life than it is in D&D. So this is probably one of those areas where Rich is hewing closer to real life.

[skaddix]

Ah Poor Roy and Xykon, wonder where the Linear Guild went. Also the OOTS finally finds out what is in the rift.

[e1_conquistador]

Redcloak knows roy has to die, he knows Roy is really the only person trying to stop him, if he can kill roy (and rpevent him from coming back) then he effectivley has noone in his way anymore


If that were the case & nailing Roy was top priority, a non-fort save spell would have still been a better choice. Running best guess on Roy's level is something like 13-15, so best HP is 195; Redcloak is supposedly 17+... Destruction would have been better, he's used that - 10d6 on a passed fort save. Plane shift would have been a far better choice; it's a will save, and Roy couldn't cast to bring himself back. (Redcloak used both against one of the Azure City priests in #456)

Harm's another good one Team Evil throws around often: 10hp per level, 150max, half on a will save- woulda decked Roy for at least 75hp, which is double the max possible from the almost certain to be saved against disintegrate.

...Hey, there's no law that says he had to use the most efficient spell in the most efficient way available. I'm just remarking on it.

[rodneyAnonymous]

If that were the case & nailing Roy was top priority, a non-fort save spell would have still been a better choice. Destruction would have been better...

Harm's another good one Team Evil throws around often...

Harm is touch-range and destruction is close-range. Disintegrate can reach hundreds of feet, it was probably Redcloak's best choice.

[zimmerwald1915]

Harm is touch-range
As is plane shift, incidentally. Pretty much none of the spells from the Redcloak vs. Azurite Cleric fight would be useful here, because part of the point of that fight was to humorously send up the uninspired cinematics of touch spells...a point that was then subverted by the Durkon vs. Malack fight, which was both awesome and featured a number of touch spells.

[Forikroder]

No, because you're forgetting that intent is part of alignment. Roy's intent has always been to be lawful and good. That's what the Deva means when she says "you're trying."

Roy has mostly been Lawful and Good and therefore made it into the LG afterlife. Even if he did a few chaotic acts he's still LG. If anything this is consistent with what I am saying. Your current alignment at death doesn't determine your afterlife, it is the entirety of your life that matters.

Belkar could currently be CN and he would still go to CE afterlife because for the majority of his life both his intent and actions were CE.

if Roys actions were mostly lawful good the Deva would never have brough up putting him as neutral, he had done enough chaotic evil actions to at least balance out his lawful good ones

assuming that Belkars change has reached so far that he s currently acting Chaoptic neutral upon death thats where hed wind up the gods have a tangible magical means to decide the actual alignment of people and sort them accordingly if Belkar does have the ability to avoid the 9 hells


The Deva (which you brought up) supports this idea as well. Roy is consistently Good, but the Deva points out that if he had actually abandoned Elan to the Thieves (a long time ago), he wouldn't have gotten into the mountain, and Roy abandoning Elan is a lot smaller of an issue as "I murdered thousands of people who have never effected me in anyway"

theres so many difference in the scenario youre comparing apples to oranges

Roy chose to abandon elan when he had every opportunity to not, he had no reason not to, no pressing engagement he chose to leave Elan purely because he was annoying

also your making it sound like that was roys only evil act, he had also recently lied to his party to manipulate them into going into the forest in the first place, aside from his slaughter in the dungeon exactly what good acts had he done to counterbalance leaving a party member for dead for no reason?

and then after that he resists arrest, blows up a hotel, steals gifts meant for a king attempts to break out of jail, conspires with Shojo behind the paladins back, allows a murderer to go free, lies to Shojo to get him to give them a wizard, gets taht wizard killed, doesnt even pay enough attention to realise that Nale obviously replaced Elan then imprisons 3 people with no trial (probably until they expired or the gates were dealt with)

for V FAmilicide was (to his extreme mental state) a sound plan, the ABD had gone to such lengths to kill his family its entirely possible that others in her family would too, and Familicide might even wind up saving more lives in the long run with less black dragons to go around terrorizing innocents all the BDs killed would be a big plus and while the deaths of innocents is tragic it was a completely unexpected side effect he did not intend to kill any innocent with his casting while Roy entirely intended to let the bandits kill Elan

[Gift Jeraff]

The phantasm showed that O-Chul told the OOTS that the MitD is a good man. I wonder if they'll try to take advantage of that.

[e1_conquistador]

Harm is touch-range and destruction is close-range. Disintegrate can reach hundreds of feet, it was probably Redcloak's best choice.

Ah! Right!! ...Totally forgot the range aspect to the strip! :smallbiggrin: ...kinda interesting that all the good will save spells are short range?

Hmm. Reflex saves still would have been better against Roy than a fort of all things, though - how about Flame strike? 15d6 max, reflex for half? ...gotta be something better than disintegrate.

It's all armchair quarterbacking, of course. Who knows what RC preps in advance? ...plus ganking Belkar would have been totally anticlimactic.

[Saturosian]

I'm getting spoiled with the faster updates (and spoiling is great!), I'm worried it will be hard to adjust next time we get a 'OOTS will return on <date>' message.

This isn't far from what I expected, although I was definitely thinking there would be more of Xykon trying to blow things up. Comedy is a solid choice, though, and it's always nice to see Redcloak let off some steam, too. =)

[skaddix]

if Roys actions were mostly lawful good the Deva would never have brough up putting him as neutral, he had done enough chaotic evil actions to at least balance out his lawful good ones

assuming that Belkars change has reached so far that he s currently acting Chaoptic neutral upon death thats where hed wind up the gods have a tangible magical means to decide the actual alignment of people and sort them accordingly if Belkar does have the ability to avoid the 9 hells



theres so many difference in the scenario youre comparing apples to oranges

Roy chose to abandon elan when he had every opportunity to not, he had no reason not to, no pressing engagement he chose to leave Elan purely because he was annoying

also your making it sound like that was roys only evil act, he had also recently lied to his party to manipulate them into going into the forest in the first place, aside from his slaughter in the dungeon exactly what good acts had he done to counterbalance leaving a party member for dead for no reason?

and then after that he resists arrest, blows up a hotel, steals gifts meant for a king attempts to break out of jail, conspires with Shojo behind the paladins back, allows a murderer to go free, lies to Shojo to get him to give them a wizard, gets taht wizard killed, doesnt even pay enough attention to realise that Nale obviously replaced Elan then imprisons 3 people with no trial (probably until they expired or the gates were dealt with)

for V FAmilicide was (to his extreme mental state) a sound plan, the ABD had gone to such lengths to kill his family its entirely possible that others in her family would too, and Familicide might even wind up saving more lives in the long run with less black dragons to go around terrorizing innocents all the BDs killed would be a big plus and while the deaths of innocents is tragic it was a completely unexpected side effect he did not intend to kill any innocent with his casting while Roy entirely intended to let the bandits kill Elan

Went back and saved Elan.

He said they were going to kill Giants, the party ended up killing a Dragon, not sure what the problem is there. No one complained in the end.

There is no reason they had to respect Miko's right to arrest them, they dont pray to the 12 Gods and are not from Azure City plus Roy stopped his party from trying to kill her with a sneak attack. The hotel blowing up was caused by Belkar chasing the lawyer, Roy had already talked down the assassins. That was luxury service not actual gifts. For the greater good, its not like he knew Shojo controlled the trial until after and they wanted to prevent evil guys from controlling the gates. To save his sister, no way that is an evil act. Not his fault the wizard got drunk and got killed. I am not sure how this makes him evil, Haley did not notice a darn thing and she spent the most time around him. V notice him making out with a random cop and his clothes on wrong and said nothing about it.

Yes that is some absurd justification going on right there.

[Kornaki]

I would imagine after his encounter with O'Chul that Redcloak will be opting for a longer range of engagement than some of his more powerful options avail him.

You might say he's paranoid, but he can't be paranoid if he's right, and trying to get in for a plane shift or a harm especially is a good way to eat Roy's new feat

[Snails]

Harm is touch-range and destruction is close-range. Disintegrate can reach hundreds of feet, it was probably Redcloak's best choice.

It is even worse than that. Cleric spells suh-huck at long ranges. Redcloak can do almost nothing that will effect Roy.

Summon a creature? Haley will hit him with four arrows before he can complete that spell, and he might well fail that Concentration check.

[androkguz]

About the deva and Roy's alignment (why are we discussing this again?):

Deva starts checking Roy's record in front of him so that he can defend himself and also learn what they consider good and evil and lawful and chaotic upstairs. She also wants to see what he thinks about his own actions.
However, by the end of the discussion about Roy's vertical alignment there was no discussion that he was good.
What was very much on the line was his lawfulness and here is where intent comes in: because Roy was specifically trying to be lawful that gave him extra lawful points enough to make the difference and not put him in the Neutral Good afterlife.

She points all this out here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

[Snails]

Ah! Right!! ...Totally forgot the range aspect to the strip! :smallbiggrin: ...kinda interesting that all the good will save spells are short range?

Hmm. Reflex saves still would have been better against Roy than a fort of all things, though - how about Flame strike? 15d6 max, reflex for half? ...gotta be something better than disintegrate.

It's all armchair quarterbacking, of course. Who knows what RC preps in advance? ...plus ganking Belkar would have been totally anticlimactic.

270 feet. That is Redcloak's Flamestrike range. They are probably >500 feet apart. Xykon has good spells for that range. Redcloak does not.

Cleric's have nothing useful that reaches beyond Medium range (100 feet + 10 feet/level). That approximately never matters while indoors, but outdoors things look completely different...

[Forikroder]

Went back and saved Elan.

He said they were going to kill Giants, the party ended up killing a Dragon, not sure what the problem is there. No one complained in the end.

There is no reason they had to respect Miko's right to arrest them, they dont pray to the 12 Gods and are not from Azure City plus Roy stopped his party from trying to kill her with a sneak attack. The hotel blowing up was caused by Belkar chasing the lawyer, Roy had already talked down the assassins. That was luxury service not actual gifts. For the greater good, its not like he knew Shojo controlled the trial until after and they wanted to prevent evil guys from controlling the gates. To save his sister, no way that is an evil act. Not his fault the wizard got drunk and got killed. I am not sure how this makes him evil, Haley did not notice a darn thing and she spent the most time around him. V notice him making out with a random cop and his clothes on wrong and said nothing about it.

Yes that is some absurd justification going on right there.
its very hard to reply when you dont cut the quote and your responses so its clear exactly what your responding to, the way you write its just a very hard to read paragraph instead of the exchange i assume you were aiming for

[e1_conquistador]

270 feet. That is Redcloak's Flamestrike range.

What I'm reading shows disintegrate and flamestrike as having the same range.

[Paisley]

On a random note, I find it mildly interesting that of the few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html) people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) we've seen hit with Disintegrate, Roy seems to be the only one with a Xykon-esque skeleton.

Unless I'm misremembering, or something.

[skaddix]

On a random note, I find it mildly interesting that of the few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html) people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) we've seen hit with Disintegrate, Roy seems to be the only one with a Xykon-esque skeleton.

Unless I'm misremembering, or something.

Nah O'Chul had it as well.

[Paisley]

Ah. Then I was misremembering.

[Finn Solomon]

Elan might have just saved Roy's life there with his healing spell. Nice way to return the favour after the three times Roy has saved his butt in the past.

[factotum]

Elan might have just saved Roy's life there with his healing spell. Nice way to return the favour after the three times Roy has saved his butt in the past.

Possibly, but if a single Mass Cure Light Wounds was enough to get Roy back up to full health, he can't have been that badly hurt in the first place!

[rodneyAnonymous]

...how about Flame strike? 15d6 max, reflex for half? ...gotta be something better than disintegrate.

Flame strike would also be a good choice, but disintegrate has a higher max damage, 34d6 if the save fails. And Redcloak likes it.

[Math_Mage]

Possibly, but if a single Mass Cure Light Wounds was enough to get Roy back up to full health, he can't have been that badly hurt in the first place!
I'm not sure, but it looks like more healing spells may have been cast off-panel, as Elan and Roy both seem to have recovered more than a Mass CLW would have provided.

[KoboldRevenge]

That's a different perspective than Blackwing had. Due to the relative differences in altitude?

Probably someone already said this but, that wouldn't apply if the planet was the same size as the OoTS world. The rift would have to be in orbit. But the planet doesn't have to be the same size.

[UndertheBridge]

The title of this strip has been bugging me a little. More often than not, there is a secondary meaning to it. Or some pop-culture reference. But for the life of me, I couldn't figure out what.

TO GOOGLE!!!

There's a Hole in the Middle of the Sea (http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/theresaholemp3.htm)



This CAN'T be a coincidence? Can it?

Seems to be a semi-well known children's song that I was previously unaware of.



Sea, apparently. :smallsmile:

Actually, there's a hole in the middle of a pelvis too :smallwink:

[Paladin Steve]

Possibly already been said, but just wanted to say nice job with the Indiana Jones fridge/roach reference rich ;)

[pearl jam]

Wow! I loved that comic. Really wondering what's going to happen next!

Also, poor Roy! :smalltongue:

[Yamian]

Hooray for Indiana :roach:!

[B. Dandelion]

I sorta like how Redcloak here is contrasted with his passive healbot self from the illusion comics. In the fantasy he took no offensive action at all and seemed quite placid in personality (ultimately, they didn't even have to kill him). Here, he not only attacks but gets in the first shot, and appears to be quite pissed while he's at it. Oh, and how Xykon seems to be taking his dismemberment in stride. It does take a lot to get under Xykon's skin, doesn't it?

If the Order don't escape through the Rift, I wonder if Tarquin could play the cavalry here. It's been hinted at that he might have called in reinforcements before leaving the city, so if they showed up they could probably either drive off Team Evil or at least give enough cover to let Elan and the others get away.

[Arrowstorm122]

I'm not sure, but it looks like more healing spells may have been cast off-panel, as Elan and Roy both seem to have recovered more than a Mass CLW would have provided.

They weren't that badly damaged. Roy would probably have survived even without the cure light wounds, although I don't know if they can heal his new wounds without Durkon.

[Mike Havran]

Heh heh heh ... called it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15586098&postcount=57) :smallcool:

Awesome strip.

[JCAll]

Flame strike would also be a good choice, but disintegrate has a higher max damage, 34d6 if the save fails. And Redcloak likes it.

And I don't remember seeing Redcloak using Flame Strike after his goof in the forest.

[Kish]

No I didn't type that right I meant if someone prepares the Destruction Domain
It's as Zimmer said. There's no such thing as "preparing the Destruction domain." When you prepare spells, you choose your domain spells from the list available to you, list derived from both your domains. And you have both your domain granted abilities at all times.

Can we now say that Belkar's alignment has officially shifted?
...Because he apologized for kicking Elan when he meant to kick Roy? That's the only thing he did in this strip.

[Morty]

I sorta like how Redcloak here is contrasted with his passive healbot self from the illusion comics. In the fantasy he took no offensive action at all and seemed quite placid in personality (ultimately, they didn't even have to kill him). Here, he not only attacks but gets in the first shot, and appears to be quite pissed while he's at it.

Indeed. The Order really don't know anything about Redcloak, but maybe after he throws a few more powerful spells here they'll start thinking.

[b_jonas]

Now Elan will feel compelled by the rules of narrative to believe Nale has died in the pyramid off-screen until they meet again.

[gorocz]

Hmm. Reflex saves still would have been better against Roy than a fort of all things, though - how about Flame strike? 15d6 max, reflex for half? ...gotta be something better than disintegrate.

First, let me remind you that Giant does NOT want to play the characters/NPCs in the most effective way. He plays them how they make the most sense from their character point (i.e. roleplaying, not munchkining) and for the best effect for the sake of the comic/story.

That being said, let me get to the munchkining part :smallbiggrin:
Disintegrate would hit for 34d6 (119avg) on a successful save and 5d6 (17avg) on a failed one. Flame strike for 15d6 (52avg) on a successful and half (26avg) on a failed. Roy doesn't have that good a Fort save for Flame strike to be better choice. Let's say his Fort save is +13 and his reflex +7 and the save for Flame strike was 22 (10+5+WIS) and Disintegrate 24 (10+7+WIS): Roy would save for half of the disintegrates (68avg dmg) and 6/20 of the Flame Strikes (42avg dmg).

From average damage point, Disintegrate would be better even if Roy didn't have a Reflex save at all, his Fort save wouldn't justify Flame Strike. With Reflex save, Disintegrate makes sense even from non-purely-mathematical-statistical point of view.

[Garwain]

About going through the rift:

Xykon's body was destroyed when tossed in, he wasn't transferred to the planet in the rift. Ofcourse, that rift was still sealed....

I get stargate vibes all over the place...

[Perseus]

About going through the rift:

Xykon's body was destroyed when tossed in, he wasn't transferred to the planet in the rift. Ofcourse, that rift was still sealed....

I get stargate vibes all over the place...

When tossed into the gate, not the rift.

[t209]

Anybody saw Dr. Jones fridge references? Seriously, it's kinda remind me of 50s comics, except Spiderman and Hulk (silly and campy).

[dtilque]

Sorry if someone has posted this before, but I just don't have time to read the entire thread.

The beat up umbrella is actually the MitD being damaged. We've never seen him take damage before as far as I can remember. So how do you show damage on a creature constantly in magical darkness? There's several ways, I'm sure, but the Giant has chosen to display it on the umbrella.

[littlebum2002]

Sorry if someone has posted this before, but I just don't have time to read the entire thread.

The beat up umbrella is actually the MitD being damaged. We've never seen him take damage before as far as I can remember. So how do you show damage on a creature constantly in magical darkness? There's several ways, I'm sure, but the Giant has chosen to display it on the umbrella.


Also, since we know healing spells inexplicably fix clothes, I guess they fix umbrellas, too.



I'm so glad we were wrong about Belkar sacrificing himself. We can't lose the comic relief! Although I wonder how Elan knew that he was kicked by accident...

[Dracon1us]

A part of me is rooting for a Roy Recurrent Death joke :xykon:

I'm a bad person

[Kish]

When tossed into the gate, not the rift.
Xykon was destroyed by Dorukan's ward over Dorukan's gate. It has nothing to do with any of the other gates.

Not that the person I quoted suggested otherwise, but just to amplify.

[ChristianSt]

Sorry if someone has posted this before, but I just don't have time to read the entire thread.

The beat up umbrella is actually the MitD being damaged. We've never seen him take damage before as far as I can remember. So how do you show damage on a creature constantly in magical darkness? There's several ways, I'm sure, but the Giant has chosen to display it on the umbrella.

No, we only see that the umbrella is damaged.
We don't know whether MitD is damaged or not. Of course it is a viable interpretation, but I don't share it with you :smallwink:. This might get shown in the next few strips (for example with revealing MitD (I don't think that will happen) or with MitD stating he was (or wasn't) damaged).

In 375 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) he is damaged somewhat (paper cut in the second-to-last panel), but there is no visual alteration to MitD (but he commented on it, so it is possible that he will say it when he takes damage the next time).

[Jay R]

Is that rift about to flood the desert?

[Dracon1us]

this is why I'm addicted to Giant's storytelling: evil people struggles, suffers, are injured, have their wins and their loss...in other words, they are REAL.

usually in fiction the bad guys are mountains too big to climb in the beginning, when the heroneeds to understand that he needs to try hard and embark in the Hero's Journey ... and then at the end of the story they are reduced to mere inconveniences..

here the Bad Boys have their own Villain's Journey... they are printed in 3D...they live, they breath, they kick asses!

For this I thank you Giant !

[HPWesterman]

I'm beginning to think that the rifts may not allow things to go through them... or at least not allow things that enter the rift to go back out. :smallconfused:

Rift 1: Space. Space, last I checked, is a vacuum. In theory, a lot of stuff should have been sucked into that rift in Azure City.

Rift 2: Ocean. No wind, no humid breeze coming through that the characters would notice in a very arid environment?

[nyjastul69]

Actually, there really is such a thing as a Right and Left pelvis, which are joined by ligaments to make a whole pelvis.

So this could be an indication that the MitD actually HAS ranks in Knowledge (anatomy).

See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/med/pelvis.gif

I believe it's a left and right hip bone that primarily comprise the pelvis. Although I think Rich is just making a joke and is no way making a statement about anatomy.

[martianmister]

Seriously, it's kinda remind me of 50s comics, except Spiderman and Hulk (silly and campy).

1. What?

2. They both created in 1962.

[Wolv90]

No surprises there, coffins and fridges are the way to survive explosions so it seems. Everyone is accounted for except for V who will be needed if they plan to survive the confrontation with wrong-eye.
And (s)he will be fine, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html "your body will be shielded from all harm"

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Wuh-oh. A rift that opens into the sea? KAIJU INCOMING!

[Shining Wrath]

What's with the feet (and partial legs) on top of the coffin? Is this an in-game joke that I'm missing?

The sarcophagus for Girard had his statue atop it. That's what remains of the statue.

[The Smallest]

I don't think that Roy was disintegrated, just harmed. He hasn't had a long enough time alive to die again.

[The Smallest]

I also think that the ocean is on the world Blackwing saw when he/she looked into the rift.

[One Skunk Todd]

...a figure he has assumed was dead and gone...

In OotSverse the "and gone" part is not necessarily a given. :)

[One Skunk Todd]

I can't help but wonder if, as they go through the rift, they will pass over a shark. :)

That assumes they go through the rift and not down into V's room and the service tunnels, which may or may not be intact. If they do go through the rift it will be interesting to see what would stop TE or LG from pursuing, unless TE and LG start fighting each other. What's the range on MCLW anyway? Could V be affected, assuming the IFCC's protection didn't block it?

As for what we know about the Snarl and rifts, it does seem that the Scribble's animosity towards each was genuine. So maybe they really believed the Snarl killed Kraagor, or maybe the OotS is about to meet Kraagor, which would be kind of cool.

I have to say I'm in the "it looks like a small strip of beach" camp. To me it doesn't seem to match the other rift-edge effects in color, positioning or shape.

Completely unrelated, but could Xykon be hurt by his detached body parts? Would he feel if Roy found and smashed his pelvis?

[The Smallest]

I sorta like how Redcloak here is contrasted with his passive healbot self from the illusion comics. In the fantasy he took no offensive action at all and seemed quite placid in personality (ultimately, they didn't even have to kill him). Here, he not only attacks but gets in the first shot, and appears to be quite pissed while he's at it. Oh, and how Xykon seems to be taking his dismemberment in stride. It does take a lot to get under Xykon's skin, doesn't it?

Well, in the illusion, Redcloak was depicted as a passive, mostly useless henchman with no real character development or backstory, the way most of the Order trapped in the illusion remembered him, since he had no real confrontation with them since the battle at Dorukan's castle. However, the real Redcloak has has a lot of character development and has gained a back story that actually matters to the plot since he last faced the Order.

[Ghost Nappa]

Does anyone else see that the shot of the ocean in the rift also appears to have a sliver of coast near Elan's speech bubble? I don't think the Rift is opening into the Ocean so much as it is opening to a view of the ocean. Should someone walk through, they should be on some kind of footing.

[The Smallest]

I'm in the 'small strip of beach' camp.

[The Smallest]

After all, if the Order went through the Rift, Roy wouldn't be able to swim because of his armor.

[Morty]

Roy was hardly a major part of the Azure City battle, at least from Redcloak's view. He jumped on the dragon and got killed. After that, X returned to schedule, making Roy a footnote in the battle report at most. Now he is seeing Roy from [vaguely calculated] 80 yards, meaning he briefly sees a figure about the size of the figure that Elan heals. So he is supposed to quickly identify from a great distance, a figure he has assumed was dead and gone, a figure he does not deem a major bother. [We might note here that Red was unable to identify V whose actions at the battle were major and should have been viewed by Red at least as much as Roy.]


You forget the part where Roy was yelling his name at Xykon, with Redcloak standing nearby.

[hamishspence]

And it stuck in his memory well enough for him to be talking about "Greenhilt- and his Order of the Stick" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html

[Gift Jeraff]

You forget the part where Roy was yelling his name at Xykon, with Redcloak standing nearby.

They were also scrying on them the moment they got near the Dungeon of Dorukan (DCF bonus strip), and they were apparently in the dungeon for weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html).

[Valdruk]

Roy (probably) didn't die from the Disintegrate. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html Disintegrate shows the skeleton when it hits, even when its not fatal.

I'm thinking Vaarsuvius's body wasn't so lucky. Unless V got blasted into the rift and the elf's physical body managed to survive the impact.

[Kish]

There is no question of luck there; the fiends told Vaarsuvius her/his body would be invulnerable while s/he wasn't inside it.

[Eric Tolle]

Pretty rational move on the part of the roaches. So would that be an example of fridge logic?

[MDR]

Hmmm, new theory. Belkar gets polymorphed into a fish (shark?) and starts to die. They throw him into the ocean through the rift. Belkar never takes a breath again, just filters air through gills.

My memory is vague right now, when did RC have enough contact with Roy to remember him? Or is it just a matter of him knowing his enemies?

Hmmm, I can kinda see Tarquin showing up here and talking both sides down, as the Rift is not as advertised. He would be all about a giant fight (well, he would be cautious about Xykon), but seems like the kind of guy that wants as much info as he can about something he is involved with. And it would behoove all parties to actually understand what they are looking at (well, RC might not be happy, as he is keeping lots of things close to his chest).

Anyways, those are the crazy ideas that popped into my head when I read the strip. I do like the idea the group is going to jump into the Gate.

[exenia]

I'm actually pretty disappointed the whole Indy move wasn't lampshaded harder with mention of how outrageously improbable it was as a survival tactic.


I will say the most shocking thing to me is that Redcloak knows Roy's name. For some reason it takes me completely by surprise. I make it a point in the games I run to always make that scenario an incredibly bad thing.I get the feeling that's happening in OOTS too, it's a big deal. Redcloak recognizes them as the #1 threat to his plan, they need to be eliminated.

It means fleeing into the rift is no guarantee of escape from his wrath. RC knows that there's a 100% chance they will interfere at Kraagor's gate if OOTS isn't dealt with right now. The only way I could see RC withdrawing is if Xykon is threatened or destroyed, he would need to start hiding his switcheroo immediately. LG could provide a distraction, but their only motivation would be stopping this goblin from stealing their kills, it'd be a whole lot more practical for RC to stand aside and let them attack OOTS.

[Shale]

Remember, though, Redcloak was already using the Azure City rift as a prisoner disposal (or at least threatening to) - he might send them through himself, thinking it's instant death.

[Sir_Leorik]

Domain Spell Level 7
Domain Spell Level 8
Domain Spell Level 9

It'd be sub-optimal. But RAW legal. :smallsmile:

Is that actually true though? I looked at what the SRD has to say about Domain slots and the wording is ambiguous. Can Clerics really prepare lower level domain spells (or Metamagic versions of Domain spells) using a higher level Domain spell slot? I always understood the PHB/SRD to mean that a Cleric has a bonus spell slot for each spell level which he must use to prepare one of the two Domain spells he gets for that spell level from his two chosen Domains (i.e. a 15th level Cleric with the Destruction and Strength Domains can choose to prepare earthquake or Bigby's Clenched Fist(tm) in his eighth level Domain slot, but can't prepare an extended Bigby's Grasping Hand (tm) in the eighth level slot.)

Is there anything in the 3.5 FAQ clarifying this?

EDIT: Also, boy is Redcloak pissed! Wow. I expected Xykon to be flying into a rage, but he's busy looking for his lower extremities, while Redcloak (whom Roy dismissed as a minion in the phantasm) gets ready to wipe out the OotS! :smalleek:

And the Demon Roaches have turned up, somehow. Maybe the fridge they were in wasn't from the pyramid; they could have been escaping another explosion and were drawn to the pop culture reference like a moth to flames! :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

It seems to me that Belkar is making a pretty astute observation for someone with such a low wisdom/intelligence ( i forget which is which) score that he does.

I would expect him to have made some sort of remark like Elan, and for Roy or, even better, Haley to have wondered if the whole thing was a sham.

Maybe I'm looking too far into it. I have the tendency to do that after looking at these forums too long.

[One Skunk Todd]

Vampire bite wounds leave permanent scars? Or Rich left them to show he's still weak?

ETA: Also I just noticed, RC's a darn good shot. Nailed Roy right between the eyes.

[Sir_Leorik]

Vampire bite wounds leave permanent scars? Or Rich left them to show he's still weak?

Its probably an artistic choice to show that Belkar is still suffering Constitution drain, which is permanent.

[David Argall]

Redcloak recognizes them as the #1 threat to his plan, they need to be eliminated.

From what Redcloak knows or suspects, they are more like the #9 or 10 threat. The party may be the #1 known threat, but that is because they have killed or disposed of all the others. Roy? He was a one/two round kill when he finally got X to notice him. Eliminating him is more like getting rid of that !@#$ mosquito than actually eliminating a threat.



It means fleeing into the rift is no guarantee of escape from his wrath. RC knows that there's a 100% chance they will interfere at Kraagor's gate if OOTS isn't dealt with right now. The only way I could see RC withdrawing is if Xykon is threatened or destroyed,
But that is what the rift threatens. It is mega-power and could easily eliminate both Redcloak and X permanently. Maybe it won't, and Redcloak does have reason to wonder, but maybe it will and the merest touch is lethal. Why should Redcloak take the chance? Stop a party of losers? Who may be dead already? Or may not be able to get back? OK, maybe we camp here to make sure they won't return [and to heal and recover spells], but how are they to even get to that last gate? Much less bother X's plan? Outside of mega-plot points, why isn't it more sensible to forget them?

[AutomatedTeller]

The roaches were there before the explosion. The fridge and indiana jones outfit were not - they came from (and will presumably go back to) the funny - that ethereal part of comic physics which allows characters to do things that are not actually possible, just because it's funny. Like, for instance, a lich having his lower half blown off, but an umbrella taking very little damage. Though, i suppose that could be because of the MITD subconsciously keeping it there, I dunno.

I loved the fridge reference ;)

[hamishspence]

From what Redcloak knows or suspects, they are more like the #9 or 10 threat.

Who do you think are threats 1 to 8, to Redcloak?

[Reddish Mage]

From what Redcloak knows or suspects, they are more like the #9 or 10 threat. The party may be the #1 known threat, but that is because they have killed or disposed of all the others. Roy? He was a one/two round kill when he finally got X to notice him. Eliminating him is more like getting rid of that !@#$ mosquito than actually eliminating a threat.


But that is what the rift threatens. It is mega-power and could easily eliminate both Redcloak and X permanently. Maybe it won't, and Redcloak does have reason to wonder, but maybe it will and the merest touch is lethal. Why should Redcloak take the chance? Stop a party of losers? Who may be dead already? Or may not be able to get back? OK, maybe we camp here to make sure they won't return [and to heal and recover spells], but how are they to even get to that last gate? Much less bother X's plan? Outside of mega-plot points, why isn't it more sensible to forget them?

Your analysis would make a lot more sense if the OOTS didn't just blow up their SECOND gate. Redcloak likely suspects they were the ones to do so because they were the first thing that Redcloak saw following the pyramid going all Krackkakoooom!!

[Blue Griffin]

I know V's body is fine, but what I really want to know is who is going to find here body first. Team evil, OotS, or LG?

[FullStop]

Wuh-oh. A rift that opens into the sea? KAIJU INCOMING!

Big-a** monster right over there! Get over your s*** and punch it in the face!
PUNCH
IT
IN
THE
FACE!

[exenia]

From what Redcloak knows or suspects, they are more like the #9 or 10 threat. The party may be the #1 known threat, but that is because they have killed or disposed of all the others. Roy? He was a one/two round kill when he finally got X to notice him. Eliminating him is more like getting rid of that !@#$ mosquito than actually eliminating a threat.From a challenge level standpoint, OOTS/Roy is nothing but a speedbump. But that annoyance has now destroyed 2 gates directly and was involved in the defense of Azure City enough to ruin Xykon's surprise entrance. They're resourceful enough to still be around, and the reckless habit of destroying gates is very bad for Team Evil's plans.

Redcloak knows the Snarl is dormant somehow, I wouldn't expect him to see OOTS run into the rift and shrug and write them off for dead. He'd want to make sure, at the very least by sending MitD to check. When it's clear the Snarl isn't shredding OOTS, the meteor swarms can start chasing them down.

[zilonox]

Roy? Nooooooooooooooooo!

[BroomGuys]

V won't be in this fight. Still in the penalty box.

*Whistle.* 20 minutes for soul-selling! Team Evil on the power play here.

[Carteeg_Struve]

*Whistle.* 20 minutes for soul-selling! Team Evil on the power play here.

At least they can't get called for icing.

[Shale]

Somebody might have floated this before, but it just occurred to me:

Now we know that a rift can lead to a specific point on the Other World, rather than just a bird's-eye-view of the entire planet. So it's possible that the people who got clawed to death for standing near unclosed rifts back in the Scribblers' time just happened to be nearby when something big and nasty wandered close to the other side, rather than being killed by the Snarl.

[Forikroder]

From what Redcloak knows or suspects, they are more like the #9 or 10 threat. The party may be the #1 known threat, but that is because they have killed or disposed of all the others. Roy? He was a one/two round kill when he finally got X to notice him. Eliminating him is more like getting rid of that !@#$ mosquito than actually eliminating a threat.

the only group of people in existance trying to stop redcloaks plan gets ranked at 9 or 10 or the threatometer?

[Perseus]

At least they can't get called for icing.

I don't know, have you seen the referring now days?

[Porthos]

Is that actually true though? I looked at what the SRD has to say about Domain slots and the wording is ambiguous. Can Clerics really prepare lower level domain spells (or Metamagic versions of Domain spells) using a higher level Domain spell slot? I always understood the PHB/SRD to mean that a Cleric has a bonus spell slot for each spell level which he must use to prepare one of the two Domain spells he gets for that spell level from his two chosen Domains (i.e. a 15th level Cleric with the Destruction and Strength Domains can choose to prepare earthquake or Bigby's Clenched Fist(tm) in his eighth level Domain slot, but can't prepare an extended Bigby's Grasping Hand (tm) in the eighth level slot.)

Is there anything in the 3.5 FAQ clarifying this?

I made my arguments concerning that question here:

Gotta run, so I'll make this quick:


Spell Slots
The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.

These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.


Spell Selection and Preparation
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, such a character’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists. A cleric also has access to two domains determined during his character creation. Each domain gives him access to a domain spell at each spell level from 1st to 9th, as well as a special granted power. With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot.

Divine Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm)



(my bolds for emphasis)

Note is says "a" Domain slot, not "the" domain slot.

And before you say "picky picky", people have argued over less when it comes to RAW. :smalltongue:

As for a FAQ/Sage Advice ruling? No idea. But that interpretation seems to be fairly widespread.

IMO, given how anal 3.5 rules can be, if the RAI were to restrict you to only those spell levels, it would say something like:

"If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot from that corresponding level"

Bold being my addition.

Furthermore, as the Spell Slots bit says, one of the reasons for being able to cast lower level spells in higher level slots is for people who don't have enough ability score to qualify for that level of spells. If a Cleric has a WIS of 15, that would mean that Cleric could never cast Domain spells in their 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th spell level slots, even though they can cast their normal 1-5 level spells in their regular 6-9 slots.

This seems to be a contradiction.

Furthermore, I could see a particularly rules-anal DM saying that one couldn't use metamagic on a Domain spell if it increased the spell level slot. Why? Because the rule as written above would theoretically say that a Domain spell must be tied to that level slot, no matter what. Which means No Empowered Disintegration for you, Redcloak. :smallamused:

So even if you view the a/the distinction as being a tad specious, the wording of the way Spell Slots is described is General. And nothing in the description of Domain Spell Slots is Specific enough to override that General principle.

IMO, at least.

[DaggerPen]

I'm so glad we were wrong about Belkar sacrificing himself. We can't lose the comic relief! Although I wonder how Elan knew that he was kicked by accident...

I think Elan just assumes the best of people.

Also:

Not only (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html) does Redcloak know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) the Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) by name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), he also specifically knows Roy by name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) and saw him fighting Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html). While he may have seen Roy fall, having been keeping an eye on Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), Roy is a high-level adventurer. If I'd seen someone at several major battles, and that someone had routinely tried to interfere with my plans, and I saw that someone across a desert shortly after my next objective literally blew up in my face when living in a world with resurrection, I'd probably find them memorable enough to go "Of course, it's the leader of the group who keeps messing with my plans and has already blown up two Gates. Of course."

[Doug Lampert]

If Redcloak had a Miracle prepared, I imagine he could just have the OOTS teleported into a volcano or something. Seems like a bit of a waste to use a spell like that and not go for a TPK.

Using Miracle for something like that costs 5,000 XP, and depends on your god being able to do it, and we KNOW OotS universe gods have jurisdictional issues that can get in the way.

Using Miracle to cast disintigrate costs 0 XP, and always casts disintigrate.

As a direct damage spell that targets Fort, disintigrate sucks as an attack against Roy. But using Miracle to emulate a well chosen lower level spell is the BEST way to use it and is what makes it the best spell in the game.

[Hawkeye]

Love the Indiana Jones reference(s), though it's probably been said many times already in this thread.

[Kareasint]

I made my arguments concerning that question here:


As for a FAQ/Sage Advice ruling? No idea. But that interpretation seems to be fairly widespread.

IMO, given how anal 3.5 rules can be, if the RAI were to restrict you to only those spell levels, it would say something like:

"If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot from that corresponding level"

Bold being my addition.

Furthermore, as the Spell Slots bit says, one of the reasons for being able to cast lower level spells in higher level slots is for people who don't have enough ability score to qualify for that level of spells. If a Cleric have a WIS of 15, that would mean that Cleric could never cast Domain spells in their 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th spell level slots, even though they can cast their normal 1-5 level spells in their regular 6-9 slots.

This seems to be a contradiction.

Furthermore, I could see a particularly rules-anal DM saying that one couldn't use metamagic on a Domain spell if it increased the spell level slot. Why? Because the rule as written above would theoretically say that a Domain spell must be tied to that level slot, no matter what. Which means No Empowered Disintegration for you, Redcloak. :smallamused:

So even if you view the a/the distinction as being a tad specious, the wording of the way Spell Slots is described is General. And nothing in the description of Domain Spell Slots is Specific enough to override that General principle.

IMO, at least.

Pretty good analysis. I see an 8th level spell that would be useful here for long range bombing (Fire Storm) but Redcloak is probably set up to breaking into a pyramid guarded by an extreme number of spells. I would not be surprised to see the Earthquake spell next (Destruction Domain spell slot).

[RadagastTheBrow]

As a direct damage spell that targets Fort, disintigrate sucks as an attack against Roy. But using Miracle to emulate a well chosen lower level spell is the BEST way to use it and is what makes it the best spell in the game.

Indeedy. Reminds me of when I last played a high-level cleric, and I pretty much used Miracle for instant "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansions." Avoided any need for camping gear, and I even designed the space to be a bowling alley!

Then I ended up taking Leadership just to get a Sorcerer cohort to cast Mansion and G. Teleport.

[Canisius]

Another intriguing thing, which was hinted at in a prior comic, is that the story of the Snarl and the rifts that OOTS has believed might be completely wrong. V said it earlier, and Belkar mentions it here again.

[MReav]

Vampire bite wounds leave permanent scars? Or Rich left them to show he's still weak?

ETA: Also I just noticed, RC's a darn good shot. Nailed Roy right between the eyes.

Vampires cause Constitution Drain, which can't be healed except by Restoration and similar high-end spells.

[Sir_Leorik]

I made my arguments concerning that question here:


Thanks for the detailed explanation Porthos!

The fact that this interpretation is not inherently clear from a plain reading of the text of the 3.5 PHB/SRD is another complaint I'm adding to my long list of grievances with D&D Third Edition. :smallfurious: The authors of the PHB (Tweet, Cooke, Williams) should have made it clear how they intended Domain spell slots work: can they be used only to prepare a Domain spell of that level; or do they work like other spell slots, allowing Clerics to prepare any Domain Spell of that level or lower or a Metamagic enhanced Domain spell.

[Porthos]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Porthos!

Glad to be of help. :smallsmile:


The fact that this interpretation is not inherently clear from a plain reading of the text of the 3.5 PHB/SRD is another complaint I'm adding to my long list of grievances with D&D Third Edition. :smallfurious: The authors of the PHB (Tweet, Cooke, Williams) should have made it clear how they intended Domain spell slots work: can they be used only to prepare a Domain spell of that level; or do they work like other spell slots, allowing Clerics to prepare any Domain Spell of that level or lower or a Metamagic enhanced Domain spell.

I completely understand the frustration. :smallwink: Though I do have a small amount of sympathy for Cooke et all. Word Space/Page Count is something of a premium in books. So you can't list every possible permutation without getting a doorstopper of a book.

But on something as basic as this? Yeah, maybe they could have spared the extra sentence and re-affirmed that you could indeed use high level domian slots for low level use.

[TheBST]

Speculation time!

The Order's gonna need some kind of distraction to get out of this. My money's on:

V's empty-but-shielded body coming down and hitting Xykon or Redcloak- also serving as a callback to when V was saved by the zombie dragon's head falling from the sky after Roy cut it off. And MitD will have a new toy! Mr or Mrs Stiffly!

...and then maybe Belkar sacrifices himself to distract Xykon/Redcloak while the others grab V and jump in the rift. Xykon says 'screw that' and they depart for Kraagor's gate. Tarquin and Co, watching/scrying from a distance, do likewise.

[Ionbound]

You know, Roy probably was the best target, assuming RC's best spell was disintegrate. Haley and Belkar probably would have made the AC roll, causing the spell to miss entirely, and I assume Elan's DEX mod is higher than Roy's after all the antics he pulled during his Dashing Swordsman stunts, so RC had the highest chance to hit Roy. How much of this RC knows, however, I have no idea. But if he did know all of that, he essentially chose between doing some damage no matter what, or an all or nothing attack.

[Aquillion]

One thing I haven't seen anyone comment on: I like the fact that Belkar's comment on the odd view through the rift is probably the most insightful, precisely because he's bitter and antisocial enough to consider the possibility that the stories they've heard about the Snarl and the rifts might not be entirely accurate.

[dtilque]

The roaches were there before the explosion. The fridge and indiana jones outfit were not - they came from (and will presumably go back to) the funny - that ethereal part of comic physics which allows characters to do things that are not actually possible, just because it's funny.

This is also known as Hammerspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace). And of course, it's not the first time it's been used in OotS. For example, the lantern, squirrel, skate, etc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) that Elan has in the last panel all came from Hammerspace.

[Bulldog Psion]

Somebody might have floated this before, but it just occurred to me:

Now we know that a rift can lead to a specific point on the Other World, rather than just a bird's-eye-view of the entire planet. So it's possible that the people who got clawed to death for standing near unclosed rifts back in the Scribblers' time just happened to be nearby when something big and nasty wandered close to the other side, rather than being killed by the Snarl.

That wouldn't explain why they weren't raised, though.

[Forikroder]

That wouldn't explain why they weren't raised, though.

also the Scribblers spent alot of time near the rifts and looking into them if there was a planet there they would ahve mentioned something

all evidence points to that between the Scribbles building the gates and the OoTS blowing them up the Scribble disapeared and a new world formed

[Jay R]

When Xykon's legs start regenerating, will it happen at his (true) phylactery, and therefore reveal to him that Redcloak still has it?

[Forikroder]

When Xykon's legs start regenerating, will it happen at his (true) phylactery, and therefore reveal to him that Redcloak still has it?

his legs wont regenerate naturally but he can be magically healed (or possibly jsut put them back on)

he only regenerates at his phylactery if his body gets destroyed

[Kish]

When Xykon's legs start regenerating, will it happen at his (true) phylactery, and therefore reveal to him that Redcloak still has it?
If Xykon having lost pieces here is anything other than a brief event about which a joke was made, I will be amazed.

[David Argall]

From a challenge level standpoint, OOTS/Roy is nothing but a speedbump. But that annoyance has now destroyed 2 gates directly and was involved in the defense of Azure City enough to ruin Xykon's surprise entrance.
They destroyed one by luck, and while Redcloak might well think they had something to do with the current gate, the evidence is mostly that he can't see anybody else. [We know that evidence is defective, and Redcloak should at least suspect that.] As to the defense of Azure City, Redcloak rightly blames X, not Roy, for his secret attack being exposed. And so it was exposed? That would seen to have made zero difference. X still heads to the castle, kills some people on the way [thus ending the surprise], and ends up fighting Soon.



Redcloak knows the Snarl is dormant somehow, I wouldn't expect him to see OOTS run into the rift and shrug and write them off for dead. He'd want to make sure, at the very least by sending MitD to check.
He is clearly not going to be able to get the MidD to do anything useful, and if he could, X would probably stop it.
Nor does Redcloak know the Snarl is dormant. He merely knows it has been inactive. What causes this inactivity, and what will end it is a mystery to him. At last report, he was assuming entering the Rift was highly likely to be fatal. He was not even willing to risk slave lives to explore. To risk his life and entire plan on the possibility he can enter, and leave, and dispose of the OOTS is rank folly of X's insanity.

[toapat]

Indiana Roach for the win, it even has a little whip.

Now, that the Snarl story has been more or less debunked, we are back to the question: why would the Dark One deceive Redcloak about the snarl?

Also, what happened to the Linear Guild and what is Tarquin up to?

because The Dark One doesnt know that the Snarl was a Deified ClericCaster of the hidden world who "Slew" a greek pantheon.

At least by standard rules, said caster probably didnt even kill the Easter pantheon, just absorbed their faith score.

[137beth]

At least by standard rules, said caster probably didnt even kill the Easter pantheon, just absorbed their faith score.
There are no standard rules in 3.X for god-killing. There are several suggestions (which are intentionally not consistent with each other) in 3.0 deities&demigods.

[Math_Mage]

You know, Roy probably was the best target, assuming RC's best spell was disintegrate. Haley and Belkar probably would have made the AC roll, causing the spell to miss entirely, and I assume Elan's DEX mod is higher than Roy's after all the antics he pulled during his Dashing Swordsman stunts, so RC had the highest chance to hit Roy. How much of this RC knows, however, I have no idea. But if he did know all of that, he essentially chose between doing some damage no matter what, or an all or nothing attack.
Between the standard cleric spell list and the domains Redcloak is likely to have, he is not blessed with many options for ranged combat (no pun intended). Summon Monster IX to get some barbed devils wouldn't be particularly punchy. Once he gets in Close range, he has some nice spells he can unleash on other members of the party--Destruction and Implosion, for example.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, I know it's speaking along the useless lines of optimal tactics, but I can't help but think Redcloak isn't being entirely serious here. If he really wanted to be killing Order members at this point, at the very least you'd think he'd start with Belkar the Visibly Ailing - the only one still visibly injured after Elan's spell (most likely conferring that, as per rules, he's still suffering Con drain.)

Not to mention the spell of choice would have been (if he's had time to refresh from when it was first used) Implosion, so long as he didn't mind getting a bit closer. Even if he only had a moderate save DC, Roy's the only one likely to survive it at this moment, with Belkar's lowered Con (and thus Fort Save, for you non-players.)

Of course, that's optimal tactics and this is OotS. Redcloak may have some reason for sparing the Order at the moment, or simply is underestimating them for some reason (or hasn't had a chance to refresh spells yet.)

[Forikroder]

They destroyed one by luck, and while Redcloak might well think they had something to do with the current gate, the evidence is mostly that he can't see anybody else. [We know that evidence is defective, and Redcloak should at least suspect that.] As to the defense of Azure City, Redcloak rightly blames X, not Roy, for his secret attack being exposed. And so it was exposed? That would seen to have made zero difference. X still heads to the castle, kills some people on the way [thus ending the surprise], and ends up fighting Soon.

apparently your definitio of luck is them breaking into your stronghold, killing your mimions and slaying your epicly strong partner thats not luck thats skill

[toapat]

There are no standard rules in 3.X for god-killing. There are several suggestions (which are intentionally not consistent with each other) in 3.0 deities&demigods.

However, the Divine rules do explain that as gods loose their clergy, they loose the powers of their divinity. However, it doesnt explain what happens when one simply looses all their clergy as a true god (one who simply was always a god, not a mortal) ala the Eastern pantheon

[Harbinger]

They destroyed one by luck, and while Redcloak might well think they had something to do with the current gate, the evidence is mostly that he can't see anybody else. [We know that evidence is defective, and Redcloak should at least suspect that.] As to the defense of Azure City, Redcloak rightly blames X, not Roy, for his secret attack being exposed. And so it was exposed? That would seen to have made zero difference. X still heads to the castle, kills some people on the way [thus ending the surprise], and ends up fighting Soon.

Destroying even one Gate is enough to be remembered, considering that there are only five. Redcloak was watching Roy and the rest of the Order for several weeks while they crawled through the Dungeon of Dorukan, and he and Xykon planned their opening of the gate specifically around them. Wouldn't you remember the guy who killed your boss and screwed up your plan?

[Forikroder]

Destroying even one Gate is enough to be remembered, considering that there are only five. Redcloak was watching Roy and the rest of the Order for several weeks while they crawled through the Dungeon of Dorukan, and he and Xykon planned their opening of the gate specifically around them. Wouldn't you remember the guy who killed your boss and screwed up your plan?

especially since the OoTS is now responsibel for team evil losing 2 of its best chances to cast the ritual

[Osiris]

lovin the roaches in a fish can!

u notice that girard's rift is triangle shaped and purple, like this?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html

weird. :smalleek:

[Forikroder]

lovin the roaches in a fish can!

u notice that girard's rift is triangle shaped and purple, like this?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html

weird. :smalleek:

there different purples and Girards trap was more like a pyramid/diamond

[One Skunk Todd]

u notice that girard's rift is triangle shaped and purple...

Yeah, that can happen as you get older... :D

[Math_Mage]

Well, I know it's speaking along the useless lines of optimal tactics, but I can't help but think Redcloak isn't being entirely serious here. If he really wanted to be killing Order members at this point, at the very least you'd think he'd start with Belkar the Visibly Ailing - the only one still visibly injured after Elan's spell (most likely conferring that, as per rules, he's still suffering Con drain.)

Not to mention the spell of choice would have been (if he's had time to refresh from when it was first used) Implosion, so long as he didn't mind getting a bit closer. Even if he only had a moderate save DC, Roy's the only one likely to survive it at this moment, with Belkar's lowered Con (and thus Fort Save, for you non-players.)

Of course, that's optimal tactics and this is OotS. Redcloak may have some reason for sparing the Order at the moment, or simply is underestimating them for some reason (or hasn't had a chance to refresh spells yet.)

Redcloak is being entirely serious--from medium range. Attacking Belkar is far from optimal: Roy's the better fighter as far as Redcloak knows, Belkar without Con drain is just as tough as Roy against both Implosion and Disintegrate, and Belkar with Con drain is a nonfactor in the fight.

[NakedCelt]

I believe it's a left and right hip bone that primarily comprise the pelvis. Although I think Rich is just making a joke and is no way making a statement about anatomy.

The human pelvis consists of three bones -- the sacrum in the middle, and the os coxae on the left and right. The sacrum is part of the spine, you can see it's five vertebrae fused together.

[Yzor]

I didn't get the IJ reference as I haven't seen the movie. I was wondering what was going on with the roaches. I like the Ozymandius reference too though I didn't get until someone pointed it out.

Regarding the new world a few things have been brought up. It's possible Kraagor and any others "killed" by the Snarl were just dragged into the new world. Heck, maybe even the Greek Pantheon is there, alive but cut off from their Outer Plane homes. This is all assuming the Snarl actually exists at all.

Someone mentioned that maybe the Dark One is just using Redcloak (and the goblins) and is actually another god entirely. If so I could see Redcloak, after realizing he's been fundamentally betrayed by his own god, seeking power another way. Maybe he even becomes the goblin god himself and actually looks out for them properly. Just a thought.

[oonker]

I have a wild guess that I'd like to submit here, so that better conspirators can either disprove or confirm.

WHAT IF the Snarl never existed? WHAT IF this whole idea of a monster born of chaos and destruction is nothing more than a story the OotScribble created to hide the existence of another world, so that this one other world could exist without the interference of beings of this plane of existence? I wouldn't know how to explain RC knowledge of the gates, or what do they really mean to the Goblin God (what's his name again?). But the IFCC would have 100% interest in revealing/gaining access to a whole new world. Talk about an effort worth joining forces for!

This idea came to me while reflecting upon children's songs. There's usually some kind of über monster or entity that will destroy/devour/consume you if you do not abide by its rules. But this monster is nothing more than a fable or just completely made up.

"There are five gates, and if they're destroyed, than a monster will unmake everything". Sounds pretty farfetched to me...

[Forikroder]

I have a wild guess that I'd like to submit here, so that better conspirators can either disprove or confirm.

WHAT IF the Snarl never existed? WHAT IF this whole idea of a monster born of chaos and destruction is nothing more than a story the OotScribble created to hide the existence of another world, so that this one other world could exist without the interference of beings of this plane of existence? I wouldn't know how to explain RC knowledge of the gates, or what do they really mean to the Goblin God (what's his name again?). But the IFCC would have 100% interest in revealing/gaining access to a whole new world. Talk about an effort worth joining forces for!

This idea came to me while reflecting upon children's songs. There's usually some kind of über monster or entity that will destroy/devour/consume you if you do not abide by its rules. But this monster is nothing more than a fable or just completely made up.

"There are five gates, and if they're destroyed, than a monster will unmake everything". Sounds pretty farfetched to me...

then how did thse rifts even form? who then made the world inside?

it would be bad storytelling to have EVERYTHINg weve been told up to now to be a lie with no foreshadowing

plus Xykon has Serinis diary why doesnt he know?

[Amphiox]

Well, whether it is (what's left of) the statue or the skeleton's hemi-pelvises, it would appear that now, at last, Girard's Rift really is lying between Girard's buttcheeks.

Along with several hundred feet of desert....

[One Skunk Todd]

Well, whether it is (what's left of) the statue or the skeleton's hemi-pelvises, it would appear that now, at last, Girard's Rift really is lying between Girard's buttcheeks.

Along with several hundred feet of desert....

Or Xykon's buttcheeks. :)

[HalfTangible]

I didn't get the IJ reference as I haven't seen the movie. I was wondering what was going on with the roaches. I like the Ozymandius reference too though I didn't get until someone pointed it out.

Regarding the new world a few things have been brought up. It's possible Kraagor and any others "killed" by the Snarl were just dragged into the new world. Heck, maybe even the Greek Pantheon is there, alive but cut off from their Outer Plane homes. This is all assuming the Snarl actually exists at all.

Someone mentioned that maybe the Dark One is just using Redcloak (and the goblins) and is actually another god entirely. If so I could see Redcloak, after realizing he's been fundamentally betrayed by his own god, seeking power another way. Maybe he even becomes the goblin god himself and actually looks out for them properly. Just a thought.

There's a (slightly controversial) scene in which Indiana survives a nuclear explosion by hiding inside a lead-lined refrigerator.

Side note: Apparently that WOULD save you from the nuclear blast if you were far out enough, but since the fridge was thrown into the air it would kill you anyway because it would be crashing into the ground repeatedly with you inside it. And failing that, you would get irradiated upon getting OUT of the fridge.

[Kornaki]

especially since the OoTS is now responsibel for team evil losing 2 of its best chances to cast the ritual

Ehhh, when their plan is "Let's get the OOTS in here and hope they open the gate for us" and the OOTS fails to comply I don't think you can really say the OOTS ruined their best chance at opening the gate. Although considering the fiascoes at the other gates maybe :smallconfused:

[oonker]

then how did thse rifts even form? who then made the world inside?

it would be bad storytelling to have EVERYTHINg weve been told up to now to be a lie with no foreshadowing

plus Xykon has Serinis diary why doesnt he know?

As I said, I'm hoping for better conspirators to disprove or confirm, haha :)

Either way, remember that almost every single piece of information regarding the Snarl was known by only three sources of information:

1 - Serini, who could not be telling the entire truth
2 - Soon, who passed down his knowledge to the Azurites (and they were ruled by someone who outright approved of deception, lies, omissions and misinformation)
3 - The Dark One.

I'm not implying that the Snarl does not exist per se. I'm merely debating that it "Snarl" is maybe the name of this other planet, or something else entirely.

I don't believe in Snarl's existence as portrayed by the OotScribble

[nyjastul69]

The human pelvis consists of three bones -- the sacrum in the middle, and the os coxae on the left and right. The sacrum is part of the spine, you can see it's five vertebrae fused together.

You are correct. That's why I said primarily and not entirely. I used the common term 'hip' instead of the proper anatomical term because I thought it would be more accessible to a larger portion of the readership.

[Forikroder]

Ehhh, when their plan is "Let's get the OOTS in here and hope they open the gate for us" and the OOTS fails to comply I don't think you can really say the OOTS ruined their best chance at opening the gate. Although considering the fiascoes at the other gates maybe

more like "these adventurers are coming maybe we can use them" and that plan lasted for like all of 10 seconds before they gave up on it if the OoTS hadnt interfered in the dungeon of Dorukon TE might have figured out how to destroy the rune by now


As I said, I'm hoping for better conspirators to disprove or confirm, haha :)

Either way, remember that almost every single piece of information regarding the Snarl was known by only three sources of information:

1 - Serini, who could not be telling the entire truth
2 - Soon, who passed down his knowledge to the Azurites (and they were ruled by someone who outright approved of deception, lies, omissions and misinformation)
3 - The Dark One.

I'm not implying that the Snarl does not exist per se. I'm merely debating that it "Snarl" is maybe the name of this other planet, or something else entirely.

I don't believe in Snarl's existence as portrayed by the OotScribble

Soon is literally incapable of lieing so we know the Azurites had correct info, since shojo is the first break in the Paladin chain we know he had correct info so your theory hinges on Shojo purposely hiding extremely critical info from the OoTS

the only reason hed do that is if he was planning something that the OoTs would want to stop (something evil) and if he was planning to rule the universe/undo creation etc then the gods wouldnt ahve taken Mikos power (since she would ahve been RIGHT)

also it requires everything that has happened up to this point to be pointless since everything the OoTS has done is based around the assumption that the snarl exists

[Tom Lehmann]

The fact that this interpretation is not inherently clear from a plain reading of the text of the 3.5 PHB/SRD [rant]
It is. PHB p. 180, Divine Spells, Spell Slots: "Similarly, he could fill his 4th level domain spell slot with a lower-level domain spell."

That took me less than 30 seconds to look up and read... Not saying that the PHB is perfect, but the authors did a pretty good job on the whole, imo.

[HalfTangible]

Soon is literally incapable of lieing
...

No he isn't!!

[Forikroder]

...

No he isn't!!

hes a paladin hes literally incapable of lieing

[FujinAkari]

hes a paladin hes literally incapable of lieing

No he isn't. It would be a violation of his Paladin's oaths, but he is capable of the action. That is, after all, what the Redemption spell is for.

However we should assume that Soon is telling the truth unless we have direct evidence otherwise. All available evidence seems to indicate that Soon was a strong believer in maintaining his oaths and so the default assumption should always be that he upheld any and all he took.

[Knight.Anon]

I believe in the Snarl! Hopefully we'll get to see him next strip!

[Forikroder]

No he isn't. It would be a violation of his Paladin's oaths, but he is capable of the action. That is, after all, what the Redemption spell is for.

However we should assume that Soon is telling the truth unless we have direct evidence otherwise. All available evidence seems to indicate that Soon was a strong believer in maintaining his oaths and so the default assumption should always be that he upheld any and all he took.

maybe literally is too strong a word but considering what we know about Soon its pretty ridiculous to assume that he ever told a lie

i mean the guy held his oath in such import that he was able to will himself and fellow paladins to half-life to defend the gate

[Luminous Umbra]

Personally, I think the Snarl does exist, but being stuck in a prison with nothing but itself for all that time changed it. I mean, the thing knows only chaos and has nothing but itself and emptiness, where there is no chaos. Would it be too much of a stretch to imagine that after spending several thousand years alone that it might create something? Something small, before destroying it. It might, after doing that so many times, find the whole creation and destruction pointless. The next time, it might create, but not destroy, and the world inside the rift is the result.

[e1_conquistador]

Redcloak is being entirely serious--from medium range. Attacking Belkar is far from optimal: Roy's the better fighter as far as Redcloak knows, Belkar without Con drain is just as tough as Roy against both Implosion and Disintegrate, and Belkar with Con drain is a nonfactor in the fight.

Right. Which is why he should have dusted Haley or Elan. I was under the impression that Redcloak was more about maximum efficiency now, personally...and taking out one of the other OOTS would have been much more damaging than scratching Roy a bit. ("Stupid risks are just that: stupid" - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html ) ...then again, those would be the ones hardest to land a ranged touch attack on. So yanno, whatevs. ...I'm not a big fan of disintigrate used offensively after this discussion; touch attack to hit, fort save? Ugh. ...who's this spell supposed to work on, casters only?

[factotum]

maybe literally is too strong a word

It unquestionably is too strong a word considering we have in-comic evidence of a paladin lying--see O-Chul being interrogated by Redcloak on the roof at Azure City.

[Faenhir]

It has been a rather long time since we've seen Roy's skeleton :P

[JCAll]

When this rift starts to force itself wider, will the ocean begin to spill over into the desert? There's gonna be a nice salt water lake in the middle of the Windy Canyon before too long.

[exenia]

They destroyed one by luck, and while Redcloak might well think they had something to do with the current gate, the evidence is mostly that he can't see anybody else.But destroying it by luck is even worse. That means OOTS is a preventable threat that TE failed to deal with properly. And Redcloak is pretty well justified in thinking OOTS blew this one, since they're standing right there in the crater checking out the rift. For all RC knows, they're just clumsy idiots that are threatening world destruction with no clue about what they're doing. Blowing Dorukan's gate after they had already successfully defended it is pretty good evidence toward that.

[HPWesterman]

When this rift starts to force itself wider, will the ocean begin to spill over into the desert? There's gonna be a nice salt water lake in the middle of the Windy Canyon before too long.

As I said earlier, I'm beginning to suspect these are windows, not doors. After all, the other rift is in space... its vacuum should be exerting some pretty gnarly wind patterns (all towards the center) across the planet... and yet... nothing.

I suspect if the rift gets bigger by growing down in elevation, we'll likely see fishies and a nice undersea view.

[Deepbluediver]

When this rift starts to force itself wider, will the ocean begin to spill over into the desert? There's gonna be a nice salt water lake in the middle of the Windy Canyon before too long.

Since this is fantasy, maybe it will be a planet with a different chemical composition and the water won't be salty (or will only be lightly so). A FRESHWATER lake could turn the most inhospitable landscape into the most desirable real-estate, and re-shape global power and politics.

[The Smallest]

Deepbluediver is right

[The Smallest]

I wonder what happened to the Linear Guild. Will they crawl out of the ruins at some point, or have they already made their getaway?

[pendell]

No he isn't. It would be a violation of his Paladin's oaths, but he is capable of the action. That is, after all, what the Redemption spell is for.

However we should assume that Soon is telling the truth unless we have direct evidence otherwise. All available evidence seems to indicate that Soon was a strong believer in maintaining his oaths and so the default assumption should always be that he upheld any and all he took.

Soon is much more likely to try a Durkon-style (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) trick than he is to outright lie.

Paladins are capable of guile and deceit in the course of their jobs. Case in point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

All lies are deceit. Not all deceit is a lie. There are also omissions, shading the truth, telling the truth in such a way that it becomes a lie, tone of voice, body language, you name it. If Soon is going to be the leader of a military organization, he must be a master of misdirection and deception. Which means he has to have either found ways to circumvent his oath or have neutral good/lawful neutral/etc. allies who are not bound by his constraints. He's not supposed to associate with EVIL characters. Nothing about neutral characters.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Coat]

Good to see that Roy is finally putting his Standing In Front Of People 101 training to good effect.

Heh. Roy average 14d10 + 14x3 (assuming a +3 CON modifier) = 119 HP. 34d6 average damage = 119. Yes, yes, I know there's no reason to believe that Roy has CON bonus +3, and the chances of rolling exactly the average damage are not great, but still find it amusing that a plausible outcome is Roy falling over on exactly 0HP.

Personally, I'd like to see Reddie follow this up with a Storm Of Vengance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stormOfVengeance.htm). Mostly because it would be awesome.

[Jay R]

Ehhh, when their plan is "Let's get the OOTS in here and hope they open the gate for us" and the OOTS fails to comply I don't think you can really say the OOTS ruined their best chance at opening the gate. Although considering the fiascoes at the other gates maybe :smallconfused:

This is Team Evil, not Team Logical.

The Order was there, bad stuff happened, the gates were destroyed. Therefore, blame the Order.


the only reason hed do that is if he was planning something that the OoTs would want to stop (something evil) and if he was planning to rule the universe/undo creation etc then the gods wouldnt ahve taken Mikos power (since she would ahve been RIGHT)

Another possible reason for Shojo to consider lying and misdirection is that that's all he'd done for decades.

You don't need a compelling reason for him to lie. You need to provide a compelling reason for him to be open and honest.

(Having said that, I don't think he was lying. He was telling everything he knew. That doesn't mean that what he knew was true.)

[RMS Oceanic]

Good to see that Roy is finally putting his Standing In Front Of People 101 training to good effect.

Heh. Roy average 14d10 + 14x3 (assuming a +3 CON modifier) = 119 HP. 34d6 average damage = 119. Yes, yes, I know there's no reason to believe that Roy has CON bonus +3, and the chances of rolling exactly the average damage are not great, but still find it amusing that a plausible outcome is Roy falling over on exactly 0HP.

Personally, I'd like to see Reddie follow this up with a Storm Of Vengance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stormOfVengeance.htm). Mostly because it would be awesome.

How about Xykon throwing an Intensified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell) Fireball?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I had a feeling after seeing the world inside the Azure City gate, that the next gate would involve a closer look at it/the possibility of being forced into that world.

I just wonder how it will play out. Will everyone involved go in? Will one group head to the gate on this side, while the other group attempts to go through on the other side? What will the scribble have to say on the matter?

[Coat]

How about Xykon throwing an Intensified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell) Fireball?

That's pretty impressive in effect. But on screen, it's just a hotter fireball. And also, Xykon using fire to make things die is not really new.

Whereas acid rain, followed by lightning, followed by giant hail, followed by rain heavy enough to shut down casting and shooting, and reduce vision range to 5 foot? All while hiding behind a sand dune? That's a special effects budget worthy of a final confrontation.

If you want, X can chuck in his Bucket Of Boom* once the rain kicks in, leaving the readers to wonder whether the party found some safety in time...


* Do not cast indoors.

[Aquillion]

Well, I know it's speaking along the useless lines of optimal tactics, but I can't help but think Redcloak isn't being entirely serious here. If he really wanted to be killing Order members at this point, at the very least you'd think he'd start with Belkar the Visibly Ailing - the only one still visibly injured after Elan's spell (most likely conferring that, as per rules, he's still suffering Con drain.)

Not to mention the spell of choice would have been (if he's had time to refresh from when it was first used) Implosion, so long as he didn't mind getting a bit closer. Even if he only had a moderate save DC, Roy's the only one likely to survive it at this moment, with Belkar's lowered Con (and thus Fort Save, for you non-players.)

Of course, that's optimal tactics and this is OotS. Redcloak may have some reason for sparing the Order at the moment, or simply is underestimating them for some reason (or hasn't had a chance to refresh spells yet.)
It's also possible he just considers Roy to be the biggest threat. (Which is accurate -- with the casters gone, Roy is likely the only one capable of damaging Xykon.)


No he isn't. It would be a violation of his Paladin's oaths, but he is capable of the action. That is, after all, what the Redemption spell is for.Paladins don't even automatically lose their powers for violating their code of conduct -- only for "gross" violations, which isn't defined (but which probably doesn't include, eg, occasionally lying for a good cause, especially in situations where doing otherwise might be an evil act.)

That said, I doubt Soon lied, just because given his character it's too convoluted to come up with a situation where he'd consider it necessary. Shojo lying (at least through admission) is a lot more probable, but I don't think we have any reason to doubt that he's ultimately good (and as someone else said, if he were really running an evil scheme, Miko probably wouldn't have fallen after attacking him, for the same reason as above -- killing her lord wouldn't have been a gross violation if there were really a legitimate reason to do so rather than just her delusions.)

I think the most likely theory, though, is that the Order of the Scribble itself was lied to by some unknown party (probably someone among the gods.)

[Forikroder]

Personally, I think the Snarl does exist, but being stuck in a prison with nothing but itself for all that time changed it. I mean, the thing knows only chaos and has nothing but itself and emptiness, where there is no chaos. Would it be too much of a stretch to imagine that after spending several thousand years alone that it might create something? Something small, before destroying it. It might, after doing that so many times, find the whole creation and destruction pointless. The next time, it might create, but not destroy, and the world inside the rift is the result.

not even the gods could create a world out of nothing, they needed to weave the threads of reality so if the Snarl wanted to make something it needed to unmake itself


Soon is much more likely to try a Durkon-style trick than he is to outright lie.

he might try that on a non-paladin (though i imagine he would never be able to understand the need to) but certainly never to his own paladins you only lie/decieve enemys or if your worried about the info being leaked wich isnt a worry for him


You don't need a compelling reason for him to lie. You need to provide a compelling reason for him to be open and honest.

hes trying to prevent the universe from being unmade and the agents hes chosen need as much info as possible to do so

[wolfdreams01]

Even if Redcloak is loaded up with True Seeing spells, it would surprise me if he doesn't have at least one Harm spell for emergencies involving Xykon's lack of impulse control. So it will be one or two rounds tops before Xykon is back in the fight, unless Roy charges in to disrupt Redcloak's spell. Of course, the fight is probably unwinnable for OOTS with Monster in the Darkness present. It might not finish the party off, but it's unlikely that it would stand back and let them kill Xykon & all.

Jumping into the rift looks like a tactically questionable decision, given the lack of information about it. That said, it might be a desperate measure if everything goes downhill (which it well may, since the OOTS no longer has any solid spellcasters in play right now).

Of course, the Linear Guild is likely still in play, since it is implied that they left the pyramid and so are probably all alive. My thought is that this will become an epic 3-way battle, with the serpent vampire being killed. This leaves Durkon free to rejoin the OOTS now that he is no longer a thrall. As a side bonus, since he is an undead now he can return to Dwarven lands (remember, the Oracle DID say that he would return to Dwarven lands "posthumously" - that means he will no longer be ALIVE, but being undead could meet the criteria for that prophecy). This may be important, since the last gate was built as a memorial to a Dwarf, so it is likely in Dwarven lands.

[137beth]

hes trying to prevent the universe from being unmade and the agents hes chosen need as much info as possible to do so
And so he chose not to tell them about the fact that he could come back as a ghost martyr:smallconfused:

[Forikroder]

And so he chose not to tell them about the fact that he could come back as a ghost martyr:smallconfused:

Shojo never came back as a ghost Martyr Soon did but then how the Azure city rift is defended is unimportant since the OoTS are being sent to the other gates

and its possible that Shojo dismissed Soons martyr ghosts as some rumour not believing that an oath be enough to bring people back to life like that

also Shojo and Roy talked alot without the rest of the Order there so Roy may have known about Soons return

wait did you mean that Soon never let them know he could do that? because Hinjo knew http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

[HalfTangible]

hes a paladin hes literally incapable of lieing


No he isn't. It would be a violation of his Paladin's oaths, but he is capable of the action. That is, after all, what the Redemption spell is for.

However we should assume that Soon is telling the truth unless we have direct evidence otherwise. All available evidence seems to indicate that Soon was a strong believer in maintaining his oaths and so the default assumption should always be that he upheld any and all he took.

O'Chul would like to talk to both of you about whether or not you fall by lieing.

See when Redcloak was going to throw people off a tower.

[Forikroder]

O'Chul would like to talk to both of you about whether or not you fall by lieing.

See when Redcloak was going to throw people off a tower.

ive reread those comics a dozen times andstill cant figure out what his supposed lie is

[Shale]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html

Bottom left. He claims to have actual knowledge of Girard's defenses, when in fact he was just guessing (and was only partly right - nobody had to answer any riddles).