Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVIII [Archive]

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Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-10, 08:29 PM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLVIII. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Sunday, August 25th, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, September 7th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Tome of Battle's Shadow Sun Ninja!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-10, 08:30 PM

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Dude, Where's My Swift? Flame of the Shadow Sun (2nd level ability) seems to contradict itself. Here's The Man's RAW reading of it:
There are two RAW possibilities:

You use Flame of the Shadow Sun on your turn in one round, and thus have a swift action available on your next turn.
You have an ability (such as that of the Ruby Knight Vindicator, in the same book) which affords an extra swift action in the round.

Because there are multiple possibilities which work with the text as written, I would use it as is. It's common for a maneuver or class ability to require some specified action which won't match those you currently have available. If you want to use Flame of the Shadow Sun you'll just have to wait until you do have the actions you'll need: i.e., treat it as a swift action action (rather than an immediate action) to use unless you have an extra swift action in your pocket.

How many maneuvers do I need to qualify? While it implies that you need three (One Shadow Hand/Setting Sun maneuver of 2nd level, one Setting Sun of any level and one Shadow Hand of any level), I'm ruling that 2nd level definitely qualifies as any level. So you need (at least) 1 Setting Sun/Shadow Hand maneuver of 2nd level, and one maneuver of the other discipline of any level to qualify.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-08-10, 08:39 PM

:smalleek: I honestly did not expect that.
Nice:smallamused:

Korahir

2013-08-10, 08:43 PM

Didn't someone predict that one or even wish for?

At least no cipher adept...... :P

Amphetryon

2013-08-10, 08:45 PM

I. . . I promised myself I wouldn't cry. . . :smallcool:

Competing. Dammit.

Novawurmson

2013-08-10, 08:50 PM

I love reading these, but my imperfect Knowledge (3.5) check always keeps me from entering (more of a PF guy). Still, I love reading over all the awesome builds.

Venger

2013-08-10, 08:51 PM

Holy expletive deleted, batman!

can we get a ruling/correction/etc on flame of the shadow sun? immediate takes your swift from the next action, so you would never be able to use this ability RAW

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-10, 08:53 PM

I. . . I promised myself I wouldn't cry. . . :smallcool:

Competing. Dammit.

You're welcome:smalltongue:

mattie_p

2013-08-10, 11:27 PM

I ... might have an idea here. I don't know if I'll be able to manage it, though.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-08-10, 11:32 PM

I suspect Originality is going to be the real killer here. This is already a widely popular PrC with several well documented builds. Trying to do something that hasn't been done before will certainly be a challenge.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-08-11, 12:05 AM

Venger

2013-08-11, 12:37 AM

Really? I feel that most ToB prestige classes are really under-used save for Bloodstorm blade, Vindicator and jade phoenix, heck the Eternal blade is barely mentioned and it is argueably the strongest non-caster class in the book.

what he means is that there are only two ways to really enter this class, so everyone's dishes will look largely the same, not that the SI itself is often used.

RFLS

2013-08-11, 12:39 AM

I may just have an entry for this. Consider me a contestant.

The Viscount

2013-08-11, 01:04 AM

RFLS

2013-08-11, 01:11 AM

Ooh, cool, shadow sun ninja!:smallsmile: Oh, right. I'm not good with initiators.:smallfrown: Possibly competing, but that's a very weak maybe.

I've heard that there's a guide floating around for SS that's supposed to be pretty good =P

Venger

2013-08-11, 01:40 AM

Ooh, cool, shadow sun ninja!:smallsmile: Oh, right. I'm not good with initiators.:smallfrown: Possibly competing, but that's a very weak maybe.

EDIT: While we're discussing RAW questions, could we get an action for Darkness within Light? I know it's probably a free action, but it doesn't actually say.

while we're on that subject, can we get a definition for "effectively blinded" ? regarding who you can target with your darkness within light ability?

sabelo2000

2013-08-11, 02:06 AM

I've been out for 2 rounds, time to throw my chef hat back into the ring.

Also, wow; it seems there's a lot of rules clarifications needed on this PrC. Thanks, WoTC.

thethird

2013-08-11, 03:45 AM

Sigh and I will be out for most of the cooking time, but this is pretty darn cool... I might try something.

Vknight

2013-08-11, 04:19 AM

I shall take up judging for this one
Too few ideas for this one.

Fun class but nothing to work on as a contestant

How I will be judging. These are the questions I'll be asking for how I grade builds

Originality:
Was is something I thought of?
Was it something other people made in their builds?
Was it clever?

Power;
Can it beat encounter for solo character at its various levels?
Can it contribute to a party?
Consistent abilities/powers?
Combat ability compared to other builds
Gear Reliance?
?

Elegance;
No dips?
Other Prestige Classes?
Utilized the whole Buffalo?
General Flavor matches build abilities? Power Attack only for prerequisite purposes is a negative
Took the easy way out?
Math is right/Easy to read/Understand builds abilities?

Secret Ingredient;
Used all benefits of the Class? Took a dip just to benefit from all benefits?
Requirements Utilized well?
Taken all the levels? Took them all in one go?
Other Prestige Classes?
Took when first able?
Flavor of Class matches builds abilities

and others like power curve(does the build have a drop in power at any point)which are the minor things

Amazo

2013-08-11, 05:38 AM

Vknight

2013-08-11, 05:39 AM

NOPE!
Best solution?

I suggestion they put links as a second post.
Like Scarp Iron Chef does.
We learn from each other!

IronFist

2013-08-11, 05:42 AM

I can't decide if I should judge or compete...

Sith_Happens

2013-08-11, 05:58 AM

Oh dear. ToB junkie here, I might just have to enter this round (probably will let laziness get in the way, but you never know).

thethird

2013-08-11, 06:33 AM

I've always had difficulty finding the winners' builds from previous competitions. Sorry for the not directly related post, but are there any quick links to the winners in the previous competition threads?

NOPE!

:roach: Of course there is, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276993).

Interestingly Noxius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109) used shadow sun monk on IC III.

I am also quite saddened because a quick google search revealed part of what I was going to do originally. Well, **** happens.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-08-11, 09:21 AM

:roach: Of course there is, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276993).

Interestingly Noxius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8337459&postcount=109) used shadow sun monk on IC III.

Oh man, I remember that one. The competition was so damn amazing that it was an honor just to be in the running up. If I hadn't gone for ending in HFW, done to shore up my weaknesses against those immune to disease, I'd have probably scored better overall. One error in judgment cost me points across the board in Elegance, and likely lost me a trophy.

Let this be a lesson to future Iron Chef Optimizers... don't get too fancy. You might lose more points in Elegance than you gain in Power.

WhamBamSam

2013-08-11, 10:37 AM

I might just have an idea for this. Need to spend some time fiddling with it to see if everything actually comes together and works, but I'm cautiously optimistic. Let's see if I can't redeem myself after the (entirely justified) slagging that my last entry took.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-11, 11:40 AM

Hmm. Not the PrC I was hoping for, but a very intriguing one nonetheless. I don't have any specific ideas yet, just a few potential hooks to investigate further. Tentatively competing.

Haluesen

2013-08-11, 12:04 PM

:smalleek: Holy crap a ToB prestige class?!

...I know I said I wanted to try my hand at judging...and I kinda have to soon...but I want to do this one so badly...

How badly could I be kicked for wanting to have a shot at this? I have no ideas at all yet but I love this idea so much it is just so tempting...

dysprosium

2013-08-11, 01:17 PM

I have a few ideas I need to kick around for this one . . .

Vaz

2013-08-11, 01:52 PM

Well I have my theme, but I'm not sure on the execution. We shall see how we go however, and see what I can do.

A.A.King

2013-08-11, 02:11 PM

Kazyan

2013-08-11, 02:38 PM

Generally, you lose points for having items be important to your build.

I've got an idea, and hopefully it's an elegant one. It doesn't have the complete UotSI that I usually go for, but maybe the build will actually function this time. No silly rules interpretations, if I'm doing it right. :smallyuk:

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-08-11, 02:47 PM

I'm kinda new to this, so this might be a stupid question but: How important are items? Can they be a big part of your build or are they irrelevant? And how about something like "The Sparring Dummy of the Master"? You only have to train with it so how relevant is the price?

Generally, item-dependent builds are docked elegance unless he can also come up with a way to guarantee he has access.

For example, a character with Warlock12 and Chameleon2 would probably be able to get away with assuming he has access to low-level wands, because he can bloody well make them himself.

Builds which are not dependent upon but admittedly could gain significant benefit from them are much less likely to get docked, or at least docked less than item dependent builds. It is probably wisest to treat magic items as a garnish rather than a primary ingredient.

Sparring Dummy of the Grandmaster is a fairly well known bit of cheese in a few situations, particularly Scout and Skirmishing. However, as long as you aren't trying to UMD it (i.e. if you actually have Monk levels), it should be a lot easier to get by the judges.

I had several ideas, but discarded them all on the basis that I doubt any of them would have a Creativity score greater than 2. A dozen possibilities open up to me... only to realize that they've also all been done before.

Aaron_C

2013-08-11, 03:25 PM

I'm in! I stumbled onto one of the past events, which is what prompted me to register for the forums.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-11, 05:16 PM

Holy expletive deleted, batman!

can we get a ruling/correction/etc on flame of the shadow sun? immediate takes your swift from the next action, so you would never be able to use this ability RAW

I asked The Man, and he answered (yes, I'm also tossing this in the FAQ post)
There are two RAW possibilities:

You use Flame of the Shadow Sun on your turn in one round, and thus have a swift action available on your next turn.
You have an ability (such as that of the Ruby Knight Vindicator, in the same book) which affords an extra swift action in the round.

Because there are multiple possibilities which work with the text as written, I would use it as is. It's common for a maneuver or class ability to require some specified action which won't match those you currently have available. If you want to use Flame of the Shadow Sun you'll just have to wait until you do have the actions you'll need: i.e., treat it as a swift action action (rather than an immediate action) to use unless you have an extra swift action in your pocket.

what he means is that there are only two ways to really enter this class, so everyone's dishes will look largely the same, not that the SI itself is often used.

It's Initiate of Pistis Sophia all over again!:smalltongue:

While we're discussing RAW questions, could we get an action for Darkness within Light? I know it's probably a free action, but it doesn't actually say.

Closing your eyes is a Free Action.

while we're on that subject, can we get a definition for "effectively blinded" ? regarding who you can target with your darkness within light ability?

Effectively blinded means that they have no way to pinpoint you. So no blindsight, blindsense, scent, mindsight, touchsight, etc...

Deadline

2013-08-11, 05:28 PM

I'm in. I do loves me some Tome of Battle.

Venger

2013-08-11, 06:36 PM

I asked The Man, and he answered (yes, I'm also tossing this in the FAQ post)

It's Initiate of Pistis Sophia all over again!:smalltongue:

Closing your eyes is a Free Action.

Effectively blinded means that they have no way to pinpoint you. So no blindsight, blindsense, scent, mindsight, touchsight, etc...

Thanks for the rulings. this is going to be a hard ingredient to showcase.

Amphetryon

2013-08-11, 07:33 PM

Build concept outlined, with the table almost filled in.

Kazyan

2013-08-11, 09:30 PM

I think my low score is going to be Originality instead of Elegance, for once. Hopefully not too low, but, you know.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-11, 09:44 PM

Hey, at least you broke your streak of getting 1.5s in elegance, right?

Kazyan

2013-08-11, 09:47 PM

If you would have docked me an additional 0.25, I'd still have it. And here I was trying to get a high score in failure.

Hunter Killer

2013-08-11, 10:39 PM

The Viscount

2013-08-12, 12:03 AM

Huh. This is a decent class will abilities that aren't all the way useless. I get the feeling this is a trap... :smalleek:

I have some ideas for this that I want to try out, but I might finally try my hand at judging if I can't figure something out.

The trap is that it's faced with the pyrokineticist's dilemma. It has several things, but since almost all of them are swifts (for whatever reason) you are for the most part limited to one a round.

relytdan

2013-08-12, 02:43 AM

Vaz

2013-08-12, 03:50 AM

Please do not talk about possible entries into the SI.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-08-12, 08:13 AM

maybe it is just me but someone said there are 2 possible entries to the SI - I am only seeing 1 through Swordsage as per the requirement of a level 2 setting sun or shadow hand - I don't think martial study can qualify for a2nd level maneuver - or can it?
I have an idea that is in progress should be interesting

Martial study can get you maneuvers of every level as long as you cover the other pre-requisites (initiator level and maneuver pre-reqs) so you can get level 2 maneuvers with 6 levels of non-initiator classes .

Feilith

2013-08-12, 11:46 AM

Meh, I've never been too inspired by ToB classes to make one. And I've been through 2 competitions before. I'll see if I can judge through this one

Vknight

2013-08-12, 02:50 PM

Just so I know for judging chairman
Will we be counting Monks Unarmed Strike ability as counting for Improved Unarmed Strike(same question with the Swordsage variant)

thethird

2013-08-12, 02:54 PM

From the monk section on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm):
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.[...]

Feilith

2013-08-12, 03:23 PM

That looks like a yes for counting a monks unarmed strike as having improved unarmed strike

Deadline

2013-08-12, 03:24 PM

That looks like a yes for counting a monks unarmed strike as having improved unarmed strike

Is there some rules text that would indicate that it doesn't?

Aaron_C

2013-08-12, 03:27 PM

Where do we list known maneuvers and stances? Under class features, or separately?

WhamBamSam

2013-08-12, 03:37 PM

Just so I know for judging chairman
Will we be counting Monks Unarmed Strike ability as counting for Improved Unarmed Strike(same question with the Swordsage variant)Clarifying what thrthird said a bit further, a Monk gets IUS as a bonus feat, but an Unarmed Swordsage does not. The unarmed damage progression class feature is distinct from the IUS feat. Monks just happen to get both.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-12, 03:39 PM

Where do we list known maneuvers and stances? Under class features, or separately?

I've always just done a separate table or bullet list for maneuvers and stances.

Had a very cool idea, but just ran into a stumbling block when I started to actually put it together. There's an easy way out of said stumbling block, but it would almost certainly mean a hit to elegance. Decisions, decisions...

Feilith

2013-08-12, 04:03 PM

Where do we list known maneuvers and stances? Under class features, or separately?

Maybe something like a list for known stances/maneuver and a table to show known/readied progression

Similiar to a spontaneous casters spells known table

Vknight

2013-08-12, 04:06 PM

Korahir

2013-08-12, 04:09 PM

This SI.... there's the big fat railroad of known cheese with it and as soon as i leave it i find myself trailing in power by miles.

Deadline

2013-08-12, 04:41 PM

This SI.... there's the big fat railroad of known cheese with it and as soon as i leave it i find myself trailing in power by miles.

You wouldn't happen to be referring to Blinky, would you?

Korahir

2013-08-12, 04:48 PM

not only him, but may be the cheesiest of them all.

A.A.King

2013-08-12, 05:00 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-12, 05:12 PM

Clarifying what thrthird said a bit further, a Monk gets IUS as a bonus feat, but an Unarmed Swordsage does not. The unarmed damage progression class feature is distinct from the IUS feat. Monks just happen to get both.

Exactly. Unarmed Swordsages get the damage progression of monks, but by RAW, they do not receive the IUS feat for free.

Maybe something like a list for known stances/maneuver and a table to show known/readied progression

Similiar to a spontaneous casters spells known table

My swordsage that I entered for Death Delver used a table for Maneuvers known/readied and stances, while I listed my selections underneath (if it helps).

Deadline

2013-08-12, 05:23 PM

I thought this would be a fun thing to try out, but I'm getting the feeling I know to little yet. With all the supposedly "known cheese" that I never heard of I'd probably end up with a stupidly weak build. So I guess I'll just see what other people come up with

Relax and build away. I'm sure you'll do fine. Just come up with an idea you like and do it. There's a well known phenomenon here in Iron Chef, I believe we call it "Vizzini-ing yourself". Chefs will wind up getting more and more worried that their dish isn't original/powerful/elegant/UseOfTheSecretIngredient enough and then start changing things. This often results in worse scores for the dish, and the Chef in question kicking themselves for making the changes in the first place.

Speaking of which, my entry is totally taking [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]. Yes, that means I'm shooting for max points in Originality.

Amphetryon

2013-08-12, 05:24 PM

Relax and build away. I'm sure you'll do fine. Just come up with an idea you like and do it. There's a well known phenomenon here in Iron Chef, I believe we call it "Vizzini-ing yourself". Chefs will wind up getting more and more worried that their dish isn't original/powerful/elegant/UseOfTheSecretIngredient enough and then start changing things. This often results in worse scores for the dish, and the Chef in question kicking themselves for making the changes in the first place.

Speaking of which, my entry is totally taking [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]. Yes, that means I'm shooting for max points in Originality.

Darn. That's what my entry is doing.

Deadline

2013-08-12, 05:32 PM

Darn. That's what my entry is doing.

Well shoot. That means I clearly can't choose the wine in front of you.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-12, 05:34 PM

So what would be the equivalent of poisoning both cups? Submitting mediocre builds solely to lower the potential originality of other competitors?

Amphetryon

2013-08-12, 05:37 PM

Well shoot. That means I clearly can't choose the wine in front of you.

You've not built up an immunity to iocaine powder?

Deadline

2013-08-12, 05:40 PM

You've not built up an immunity to iocaine powder?

:smallbiggrin:

I'm working on it, I just haven't been competing long enough.

123456789blaaa

2013-08-12, 06:10 PM

And so after the next IC is 3 pages into its thread, I get a build idea for CIW :smallsigh:. Ah well, I probably wouldn't have sent it in anyways...

Basically, I was bemoaning CIW's built-in MAD when I remembered that the Gold Medal winner of the IoPS comp used the Landforged Walker PRC to get around IoPS's built-in MAD. Landforged Walker allows you to wildshape into a plant which allows you to not worry about the physical ability scores of Str and Dex. Anyways, I looked the PRC up and it turns out that the two PRC's (CIW and Landforged Walker) fit quite well together.

They both require 4 ranks in Knowledge (nature), Cold Iron Strike helps penetrate DR in Plant Shape, Landforged Walker is only 5 levels long which leaves room for CIW, Plant Shape is great for grappling and the Dispel Magic granted by CIW helps with annoying anti-grapple spells, and the Iron Mind and Green Mind abilities stack.

It even has built-in fluff!: Stealing from Nyss d'Cannith (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6880.0;), in the ECS it said that dryads sometimes lived in livewood trees and survived when they were turned into objects (since livewood tissue is clinically immortal), meaning that dryads could be found in ships and furniture. Also, warforged are partly composed of wood. You see where I'm going with this? :smallamused:. Unlike other Landforged Walkers, this character would draw his power from within.

Just off the top of my head: During the Last War, House Cannith started mass harvesting trees in order to create warforged. A powerful dryad managed to drive away the tree harvesters sent during that time. House Cannith was of course not pleased and so during winter while the dryad was hibernating in her livewood tree, House Cannith struck. They managed to drive off her fey allies and take the tree. The tree was then used to create a new type of warforged with strange powers. House Cannith sends him to destroy more fey that try to protect their forests.

Assuming we finish both PRC's, we have five levels left over to play with. I'm not sure what to fill them with...finishing Landforged Walker as soon as possible is a priority since we don't want to be crippled for too long with mediocre Str and Dex. Some Intimidate stuff would help milk more use out of Cha. The Planar Touchstone feat to gain the Inquisition domains power would help with dispelling. The Divine Defiance feat would help with action economy but requires the ability to turn undead...a cleric dip maybe? That would also allow you to get the Inquisition domain. Landforged Walker advances divine spellcasting so well want a class with a bit of that. Getting more use out of Smite Fey would also be good.

Thoughts?

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-12, 06:17 PM

Thoughts?

Hmm, not bad at all.

I'd probably go the super-easy route: paladin 5/CIW 10/landforged walker 5. This gets you smites off an alternate list so you can take smiting feats that will boost damage on both, turn undead for Divine Defiance, and some nice Charisma synergy.

123456789blaaa

2013-08-12, 06:28 PM

Hmm, not bad at all.

I'd probably go the super-easy route: paladin 5/CIW 10/landforged walker 5. This gets you smites off an alternate list so you can take smiting feats that will boost damage on both, turn undead for Divine Defiance, and some nice Charisma synergy.

That was my first idea as well. I think I ditched it because it has neither the skill list or skill points to get into Landforged Walker early. Wait...actually apprentice (Woodsman) would work :smallredface:.

I think this build would have done quite well. It's simple, clean, flavorful, and bursting with synergy :smallcool:. Only problems is that it requires a lot of feats and that you're a melee guy with terrible Str and Dex for 10 levels.

EDIT: I presume the build takes Mystic Fire Knight? The special mount isn't going to be of much use anyways. The loss of Turn Undead hurts but also frees you from having to take Divine or Devotion feats... doesn't really make sense from a fluff perspective though. EDIT: Whoops, forgot that Divine Defiance requires Turn Undead. I suppose the build could just take paladin 4/X 1 but that would mar the simplicity....hmmm decisions decisions...

WhamBamSam

2013-08-12, 07:33 PM

And so after the next IC is 3 pages into its thread, I get a build idea for CIW :smallsigh:.

Thoughts?I know the feel. I've got two or three ideas for past ingredients that came to me too late. Ah well. Maybe the tricks will come in handy for future contests.

The Landforged Walker build would have been fun. Maybe try to sneak in a monk or totemist dip to expand your Cold Iron attack routine. Do Second Slam/Jaws of Death work while in plant form?

Venger

2013-08-12, 07:37 PM

I know the feel. I've got two or three ideas for past ingredients that came to me too late. Ah well. Maybe the tricks will come in handy for future contests.

The Landforged Walker build would have been fun. Maybe try to sneak in a monk or totemist dip to expand your Cold Iron attack routine. Do Second Slam/Jaws of Death work while in plant form?

no, they do not. plant shape is keyed off of wild shape which is keyed off of alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) which dictates you lose your own natural attacks

Haluesen

2013-08-12, 07:44 PM

Feilith

2013-08-12, 07:44 PM

Speaking of which, my entry is totally taking [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]. Yes, that means I'm shooting for max points in Originality.

Take notes from my CIW build, Calista Ecanus. 5's in originality but poop in power and elegance. Maybe Burning 5 levels of druid for 4 levels of blighter was a bad idea...But it was awesome anyway and I loved the build

WhamBamSam

2013-08-12, 07:54 PM

no, they do not. plant shape is keyed off of wild shape which is keyed off of alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) which dictates you lose your own natural attacksRight... So jaws of death is a definite no, but it seems like second slam should work if your plant form has a slam attack.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-12, 08:17 PM

I gotta take another close look at the class before I start coming up with ideas, but everyone keeps mentioning there is only a couple ways into the class, while I see many. Is this a good or a bad thing?

Also, it is things like the Vizzini conversation above that makes me absolutely love being part of the playground. :smallbiggrin:

Well, it's likely not good. All you need to do is read the Initiate of Pistis Sophia thread - only three ways to enter (Monk of the Enabled Hand (Dragon Compendium), Monk 10 or Monk X/Ninja Y [where X+Y=10] with the Ascetic Stalker feat).

Gods, that was a horrendous round. Rather oddly, however, I was pretty fond of my entry, even if the judges... weren't.

Haluesen

2013-08-12, 08:24 PM

Yikes, that is scary. :smalleek: I remember reading that thread and about that class and I just don't think I ever could have done that. I at least see a little variation here and the class is pretty interesting, so I think I will be giving it a shot. Come on, mixing light and dark abilities is pretty intense. :smallbiggrin:

Aaron_C

2013-08-12, 08:52 PM

I've always just done a separate table or bullet list for maneuvers and stances.

Had a very cool idea, but just ran into a stumbling block when I started to actually put it together. There's an easy way out of said stumbling block, but it would almost certainly mean a hit to elegance. Decisions, decisions...

Thanks! Really appreciate it! I've been playing D&D since 1st Ed. but this is the first one of these competitions I've done.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-12, 08:56 PM

Funny enough, I was rereading Doomveil's statistic block (thanks to a competitor's question), and it occurred to me - here we have yet another sample character who doesn't qualify.

The last one was the sample Justiciar, IIRC.

EDIT: Welcome aboard, Aaron_C.

Aaron_C

2013-08-12, 09:03 PM

EDIT: Welcome aboard, Aaron_C.

Thank you much Kuulvheysoon. Really looking forward to this, should be a lot of fun. Creating characters has always been one of my favorite parts of D&D. I'm actually almost finished with the basics of my build already. Just have a little more to do, and then write up some flavor.

The Viscount

2013-08-12, 09:27 PM

So what would be the equivalent of poisoning both cups? Submitting mediocre builds solely to lower the potential originality of other competitors?
I always referred to that as the bucket of crabs effect. I guess an equivalent of poisoning both cups would be something like the incident in Shadow Sentinel, where we had 2 entries with the exact same level breakdown.

Well, it's likely not good. All you need to do is read the Initiate of Pistis Sophia thread - only three ways to enter (Monk of the Enabled Hand (Dragon Compendium), Monk 10 or Monk X/Ninja Y [where X+Y=10] with the Ascetic Stalker feat).

Gods, that was a horrendous round. Rather oddly, however, I was pretty fond of my entry, even if the judges... weren't.

It's actually worse than that. There are 3 ways in to Initiate of Pistis Sophia, but the second two are more restricted than you say. The first, as mentioned, is Monk of the Enabled Hand. The second is VoP monk 10 or VoP monk X/ninja Y. The prerequisite feat of sanctify ki strike requires ki stike (lawful), which monk gets at level 10, meaning said monk would have to wait until level 12 to take the feat, thus entering IoPS at level 13. Monk of the Enabled Hand gives ki strike (lawful) early enough to simply take the feat. VoP allows you to enter by giving you a bonus exalted feat every 2 levels, meaning you can spend your 10th level feat on sanctify ki strike.

I think everyone hated that round.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-12, 09:32 PM

I always referred to that as the bucket of crabs effect. I guess an equivalent of poisoning both cups would be something like the incident in Shadow Sentinel, where we had 2 entries with the exact same level breakdown.

...In my defense, I took Abjurant Champion right after Duskblade so I'd maintain my CL throughout the entire build.:smallredface:

...But yeah, we were both greatsword-wielding Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Shadow Sentinel 10. I was literally thinking "Dude, WTF is this".

Amphetryon

2013-08-12, 09:33 PM

It's actually worse than that. There are 3 ways in to Initiate of Pistis Sophia, but the second two are more restricted than you say. The first, as mentioned, is Monk of the Enabled Hand. The second is VoP monk 10 or VoP monk X/ninja Y. The prerequisite feat of sanctify ki strike requires ki stike (lawful), which monk gets at level 10, meaning said monk would have to wait until level 12 to take the feat, thus entering IoPS at level 13. Monk of the Enabled Hand gives ki strike (lawful) early enough to simply take the feat. VoP allows you to enter by giving you a bonus exalted feat every 2 levels, meaning you can spend your 10th level feat on sanctify ki strike.

I think everyone hated that round.
I can feel the love.

Feilith

2013-08-12, 10:23 PM

So I'm reading through BoED because of all this talk of IoPS and thought "hmm couldn't you just cut the last few lvs?" so I read through the abilities and Improved Evasion is printed twice with different wording each time....Wierd

Venger

2013-08-12, 11:36 PM

...In my defense, I took Abjurant Champion right after Duskblade so I'd maintain my CL throughout the entire build.:smallredface:

...But yeah, we were both greatsword-wielding Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Shadow Sentinel 10. I was literally thinking "Dude, WTF is this".

as the guy who built the other greatsword wielding duskblade 5/shadow sentinel 10/ abjurant champion 5, another thing that really kicked our asses that round is that everyone needed to be illumian, so we had a race in common too.

at least we picked different power sigils, you focusing on str/arcane strike like a good duskblade should and me figuring that's what everyone else would do so focusing on dex and AoOs.

I felt exactly the same way when I saw your build.

sabelo2000

2013-08-13, 01:10 AM

That moment when a re-reading of the rules takes your build from "Oh my GOD!" to "God****it".

Also, Vizzini did the cup game wrong. He should have followed Ender's example and attacked the giant's face.

The Viscount

2013-08-13, 01:57 AM

Too bad 3.5 doesn't have called shot rules.

Feytalist

2013-08-13, 04:49 AM

Hmmmm.

I have an idea for SSN. It's just not a good idea. It's a weird idea.

We'll see where it leads.

Also I've missed like 6 competitions. Whoa lots of reading to do.

Vaz

2013-08-13, 07:48 AM

Unfortunately it has to be a Good idea.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-13, 09:18 AM

Hmmmm.

I have an idea for SSN. It's just not a good idea. It's a weird idea.

We'll see where it leads.

Also I've missed like 6 competitions. Whoa lots of reading to do.

Unfortunately it has to be a Good idea.

While it may not show in my scores, weird ideas are some of my favorites to read. Were-camels? Carmen Sandiego? Lobbing flaming pumpkins? Bring it on :smallbiggrin:.

Aaron_C

2013-08-13, 09:52 AM

Too bad 3.5 doesn't have called shot rules.

I know it's not official, but what I've seen alot, and seems to work well, is -4 torso, -6 for arms/legs, and -8 head. Torso adds fatigued, arms add a cumulative -2 attack (or loss of shield bonus, depending), legs add a cumulative -1 dex -5' move, head causes 1 round of stunned plus 1d3 rounds dazed.

I know this won't help with the comp, but hopefully it helps enrich your combats!

Vaz

2013-08-13, 10:00 AM

My Blue pixels must not be working Ponies :D.

Good, as in "Good alignment" :D.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-13, 10:01 AM

My Blue pixels must not be working Ponies :D.

Good, as in "Good alignment" :D.

You know, I actually thought that for half a second before saying "nah" and responding. Egg on my face :smallredface:...

Amphetryon

2013-08-13, 10:02 AM

The Viscount

2013-08-13, 10:42 AM

Vaz

2013-08-13, 10:48 AM

I understand as 1 level 1 of each, and any one of either.

So either;

1x L2 SH
1x L1 SH
1x L1 SS

-or-

1x L2 SS
1x L1 SS
1x L1 SH

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-13, 10:51 AM

See, now, I always understood it as one of each, with at least one being 2nd-level or higher.

dysprosium

2013-08-13, 10:57 AM

I was reading it like Vaz was:

Three maneuvers required:
one Shadow Hand
one Setting Sun
one second level Setting Sun or Shadow Hand

mattie_p

2013-08-13, 11:12 AM

The authors probably want three maneuvers, but based on the wording only two are strictly required (Qualifies with either Shadow Hand or Setting Sun maneuver of 2nd level (meeting two requirements, the 2nd level requirement + the "any level" requirement), plus any one maneuver from the other discipline).

Strangely, it is not 2nd level or higher, but instead "2nd level."

Of course, you must also meet the maneuver prerequisites in order to take them. Away from book, so I can't even tell if you could qualify with just two.

Venger

2013-08-13, 11:24 AM

I know it's not official, but what I've seen alot, and seems to work well, is -4 torso, -6 for arms/legs, and -8 head. Torso adds fatigued, arms add a cumulative -2 attack (or loss of shield bonus, depending), legs add a cumulative -1 dex -5' move, head causes 1 round of stunned plus 1d3 rounds dazed.

I know this won't help with the comp, but hopefully it helps enrich your combats!

it's a variant rule in the DMG, so like gestalt, spell points, etc, isn't something you can rely on for iron chef.

True Strike. LOL.

just wear a ring of it :smalltongue:

That alignment prereq makes me mad. Shadow sun ninja's all about balance between good and evil, yin and yang, black and white... so of course it requires that you be restricted to 3 of the 9 alignments. I guess it's balanced by all the vampire shadow sun ninjas.

Now for a meaningful contribution, the prereqs are confusing me a little. Do we have to know a 2nd level Shadow Hand and any level Setting Sun (or a 2nd level Setting Sun and any level Shadow Hand) or do we have to know a 2nd level Shadow Hand, any level Setting Sun, and an additional Shadow Hand of any level? That is, does our 2nd level maneuver count for the maneuver of any level requirement?

I agree with you about alignment.

here's what tob says:

one 2nd-level Setting Sun or Shadow Hand maneuver, one Setting Sun maneuver of any level, and one Shadow Hand maneuver of any level

so what you need is:
one setting sun/shadow hand maneuver of 2 (two is "any level")
one shadow hand/setting sun maneuver of any level

for a total of 2 different maneuvers known by RAW. intent was likely 3 maneuvers known (making all non-swordsage entries a complete waste of time) but they omitted the word "other" referring to the second maneuver, so that's not RAW

to my great annoyance, it does not say "two or higher" meaning what everyone knows it means, which greatly rustles my jimmies. I'd ask if the chairman could rule it said "or higher" in order to improve variety of dishes this time around, but tragically RAW is clear in this instance

The authors probably want three maneuvers, but based on the wording only two are strictly required (Qualifies with either Shadow Hand or Setting Sun maneuver of 2nd level (meeting two requirements, the 2nd level requirement + the "any level" requirement), plus any one maneuver from the other discipline).

Strangely, it is not 2nd level or higher, but instead "2nd level."

Of course, you must also meet the maneuver prerequisites in order to take them. Away from book, so I can't even tell if you could qualify with just two.

fortunately, we're not bound by what the authors want, only what they actually wrote.

welp, looks like you shadow sun ninjaed me on the 2nd lvl (not or higher) thing

you could easily qualify with only 2. most maneuvers from 1-3 do not have any prereqs.

dysprosium

2013-08-13, 11:27 AM

Oh WotC you've done it again!

Amphetryon

2013-08-13, 11:45 AM

The use of the word "and" in the qualification listing was probably meant to imply 3 maneuvers were required, as that would be the standard English reading of such a listing.

Of course, "probably meant to imply" and "standard English reading" are very often far removed from the RAW.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-13, 11:48 AM

Any chance we can get an official ruling, Mr. Chairman? I don't think it'll make too much of a difference either way, but it would be good to know for the purposes of the contest.

Vaz

2013-08-13, 12:02 PM

It would make a difference to one of my binned entries. Funny how the mind plays tricks, placing words there that aren't; hence, I concur with your reading, Piggy et al.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-13, 12:55 PM

Any chance we can get an official ruling, Mr. Chairman? I don't think it'll make too much of a difference either way, but it would be good to know for the purposes of the contest.

I'm actually going to agree with you here.

See, now, I always understood it as one of each, with at least one being 2nd-level or higher.

It certainly implies having three, but as far as RAW is concerned, two is kosher (and I'll throw a bone to our chefs). Adding to the FAQ now.

Biotroll

2013-08-13, 01:12 PM

It seems I've found an idea that works after few days of coming up with nothing usable. So because I am sick and got few days free I got time to check it and write it together and my compete again.

Anyway, I can't wait to see this rounds competitors. I like ToB, so I am interested in all the variants we will see here. Noxius was great build, too bad my group plays at lower levels so I won't have a chance to try it and feel all it's power.

Aaron_C

2013-08-13, 01:27 PM

Another formatting question. I've been looking at some past entries so I don't have to ask too many questions on this, but this has raised a question as well.
What are the parenthetical numbers? Are they conditional modifiers, for example: Dwarves gain a modifier on appraise but only for stone and metal?
(24)Balance (4) 2, Concentration 4, Perform(Dance) (4) 2, Perform(Sing) (4) 2, Spellcraft 4, Tumble (4) 2

EDIT: Nevermind. I see it now. Number of points spent to acquire CC ranks.

Vaz

2013-08-13, 01:38 PM

When I write them, they are usually cross class skills, but I tend to place "cc" next to the cross class skill.

For example, a Fighter has "Spellcraft" as a Cross Class Skill. This results in a "double rate purchase cost"; for example 4 "Skill Points" results in 2 "Skill Ranks".

______

Alternatively, they are the number of points placed into a particular Skill at each level; at the first level, you'll have for example, Jump 4 (4), Spellcraft 2 (4). Tthis means that 4 points put into Jump (a Class Skill) results in 4 ranks, whereas the cc skill only results in 2.

At 2nd level, this might be Jump 5 (1), Spellcraft 2.5 (1).

Edit; Shadow Sun Ninja'd. That's what you get for making a cup of coffee half way through.

dysprosium

2013-08-13, 01:42 PM

Thank you for your prompt ruling Mr Chairman!

relytdan

2013-08-13, 02:04 PM

FAQ:
How many maneuvers do I need to qualify? While it implies that you need three (One Shadow Hand/Setting Sun maneuver of 2nd level, one Setting Sun of any level and one Shadow Hand of any level), I'm ruling that 2nd level definitely qualifies as any level. So you need (at least) 1 Setting Sun/Shadow Hand maneuver of 2nd level, and one maneuver of the other discipline of any level to qualify.

so after getting some flak on the subject from one yet all after whom covered the same subject having the above addressed is great as such still I see only 1 possible entry into the SI -Reference Table 4–1: Discipline Access by Class - I may or may not choose to enter this round

Vaz

2013-08-13, 02:16 PM

Without going into specifics, you can qualify for the entry without even taking levels in the usual class, you need only take a pair of feats. I shall leave those to yourself to find out, however.

Kreuz

2013-08-13, 03:17 PM

Oh, I have an idea. And I am gonna get hit HARD in a couple categories. And it will be awesome.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-13, 03:33 PM

What's a good Secret Ingredient without multiple rules questions? In regards to the Shadow Sun Ninja's monk abilities:

If you have no monk levels...you gain additional uses of the Stunning Fist feat as a monk. (Your non-monk, non-Shadow Sun ninja class levels provide one use per four levels and your monk, and Shadow Sun ninja class levels provide one use per level).

Does this mean that a non-monk Shadow Sun Ninja without the Stunning Fist feat gains the ability to use the feat? Or do they mainly gain uses, albeit for a feat they can't use in the first place, thus rendering this line a moot point? I'd guess the second, since it's immediately followed by:

You do not count your class levels for the purpose of determining when you gain any other monk class features, such as bonus feats, evasion, or other special abilities.

Emphasis mine. Regardless, I figured I'd ask: what happens when you gain uses of Stunning Fist without actually gaining the feat?

Kreuz

2013-08-13, 03:48 PM

I guess you just get things you cannot use... Like "Man, I feel like today I could punch people in a really special way, like, about ten times... it is a shame I don't know how."

Feilith

2013-08-13, 04:46 PM

I guess you just get things you cannot use... Like "Man, I feel like today I could punch people in a really special way, like, about ten times... it is a shame I don't know how."

Actually the wording of the feat:

You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt)...

You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round.

I'll ask for a final word from Herr Chairman, but it sounds to me like the feat gives you the uses, as does the class. So I'd think you get it for free.
Weird...

Edit: I also read things like that as a glass half-full type of person. Mainly because I like being able to make stupid powerful builds.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-13, 04:49 PM

See, I just read that it counts as monk levels for number of uses, which makes sense because Stunning Fist's uses per day are different for monk levels than for levels in other classes. Nothing in that wording implied to me that the feat would be granted otherwise.

Kreuz

2013-08-13, 05:15 PM

The fact that it goes with "... add your class level to your monk level ..." and "... as a monk..." is what makes me think that you have the potential for the extra uses, but without taking the feat they are left unused. A little like taking Human Paragon without a spellcasting class... though the wording is different.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-13, 06:09 PM

Does this mean that a non-monk Shadow Sun Ninja without the Stunning Fist feat gains the ability to use the feat? Or do they mainly gain uses, albeit for a feat they can't use in the first place, thus rendering this line a moot point? I'd guess the second, since it's immediately followed by:

Emphasis mine. Regardless, I figured I'd ask: what happens when you gain uses of Stunning Fist without actually gaining the feat?

I take it to mean that if you're a non-monk SSN (like, say, a Swordsage), your SS levels would give you 1 use/4 levels, and your SSN levels would give you 1 use/level.

Absolutely nothing happens. It's like taking levels in Talon of Tiamat - if you don't already have spellcasting, the advancement is wasted.

Vaz

2013-08-13, 06:13 PM

I have no idea how you got that reading, Kuul.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-13, 06:27 PM

I have no idea how you got that reading, Kuul.

...Huh. I might have misread that. That ability... makes no sense.

Give me a couple of hours to think of it.

Haluesen

2013-08-13, 06:55 PM

Aaron_C

2013-08-13, 10:17 PM

It doesn't say that you gain the ability to use Stunning Fist, it simply gives you more uses. The feat states:
You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.

Meaning even a monk might not have necessarily have the use of Stunning fist either.
But if you do have the Stunning fist feat, whether through Monk, or from taking the feat, SSN levels count the same as Monk levels for the purposes of calculating uses per day.

This is how I interpret it.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-13, 10:46 PM

Alright, some people are probably not going to like this.

I'm ruling that while you do accrue additional uses of it, it does not grant you the Stunning Fist feat for free.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-13, 10:53 PM

Alright, some people are probably not going to like this.

I'm ruling that while you do accrue additional uses of it, it does not grant you the Stunning Fist feat for free.

Fair enough. I just surprised myself by stumbling across something that might work way better than I thought!

Venger

2013-08-13, 11:06 PM

Alright, some people are probably not going to like this.

I'm ruling that while you do accrue additional uses of it, it does not grant you the Stunning Fist feat for free.

So, there's another thing that we will all share in common, in addition to some way of obtaining the necessary maneuvers and alignment, lest we be penalized for not fully utilizing the full "power" of the secret ingredient, leading to a deduction in power and in UotSI. This will also mean feats that are keyed off of or improvements to stunning fist will be more common than they would otherwise.

Kuulv, you are not making this easy.

Your predecessor would be proud :smallbiggrin:

sabelo2000

2013-08-14, 12:31 AM

Ooosch, Chairman, that's harsh. Doesn't completely invalidate my build, but... that means a feat tax or a minimum 1-level dip for anyone who wants to get full power out of the class.

Korahir

2013-08-14, 06:54 AM

I think it's time to take idea a, b, c and d and glue it all together into a big ball of elegance fail :)

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-14, 10:39 AM

Ooosch, Chairman, that's harsh. Doesn't completely invalidate my build, but... that means a feat tax or a minimum 1-level dip for anyone who wants to get full power out of the class.

Why would someone be penalized for not having Stunning Fist? The class says it stacks with monk for a bunch of things, including stunning fist uses, but while I could see giving a bonus to an entry that gets really good use out of stunning, I couldn't see actually docking someone for not taking it as a judge...

(Then again, I'm not judging this round, so who knows...)

Amphetryon

2013-08-14, 10:41 AM

Why would someone be penalized for not having Stunning Fist? The class says it stacks with monk for a bunch of things, including stunning fist uses, but while I could see giving a bonus to an entry that gets really good use out of stunning, I couldn't see actually docking someone for not taking it as a judge...

(Then again, I'm not judging this round, so who knows...)

Depending on perspective, failing to get a bonus that others do is arguably the same as getting penalized.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-14, 11:58 AM

Fair enough. I liken it to, say, the armor proficiencies a class gets. I'd never ding someone for failing to take advantage of them, unless they were a key part of the class. But I'd happily give a bonus to someone who did something interesting with them, like Kazyan's build in the last contest. But I guess I can see how not getting that bonus is akin to being dinged.

Kazyan

2013-08-14, 12:08 PM

That's twice now you've mentioned Shoure, despite her being as elegant as a swan. Falling down an up-escalator.

Meanwhile, in this contest, I'm trying to crowbar a feat or two into an earlier slot and graaaaah it's not working; help me, oh spirits of optimization. What shall I sacrifice to your ineffible whims?

Vaz

2013-08-14, 12:28 PM

Why would someone be penalized for not having Stunning Fist? The class says it stacks with monk for a bunch of things, including stunning fist uses, but while I could see giving a bonus to an entry that gets really good use out of stunning, I couldn't see actually docking someone for not taking it as a judge...

(Then again, I'm not judging this round, so who knows...)
It could arguably be a part of the UoSI in that you don't use the increased uses of Stunning Fist effectively. On the other hand, it is one of a huge amount of abilities that are gained through Monk Abilities, so is quite possibly worth less of a penatly (as opposed to not using the Capstone, say).

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-14, 12:30 PM

That's twice now you've mentioned Shoure, despite her being as elegant as a swan.

I liked Shoure, and if it weren't for a couple of mistakes she would have scored as high as any others I judged last contest. She just happened to be a handy example here - she got some boosts for using parts of the SI that others didn't touch, but that doesn't mean that other builds were penalized for not using them.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-14, 01:20 PM

Meanwhile, in this contest, I'm trying to crowbar a feat or two into an earlier slot and graaaaah it's not working; help me, oh spirits of optimization. What shall I sacrifice to your ineffible whims?

Buy...Ponies...some cheese fries...

You know, I'd listen to the spirits if I were you :smallamused:.

Vknight

2013-08-14, 02:53 PM

Buy...Ponies...some cheese fries...

You know, I'd listen to the spirits if I were you :smallamused:.

I think they may be lying. That or I just want some poutine(or cheese fries).

Aaron_C

2013-08-14, 03:20 PM

Deadline

2013-08-14, 03:33 PM

How important is the backstory. I'm finished except for that, and I'm totally blanking. And under the level breakdowns, is it better to write creatively or technically, y'know, a vivid description of what they can do, or a focus more on statistics and technical details?

Well, this is not a prose contest. However, a short descriptive backstory can really tie your dish together and give a good feel for how the build embodies the SI.

So while it isn't necessary, I'd say you are doing yourself a disservice without one.

Alternatively, a goofy little vignette can be fun too. Check out Vox Dracul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15314798&postcount=338) and Sigismundo Celine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15314845&postcount=341) for examples of that.

*MODDOKH APPROVES THIS MESSAGE.*

Vaz

2013-08-14, 03:44 PM

There should be a unifying back story that holds it all together; or else, all we're left with is a bunch of numbers, and it gets quite hard to figure as to why something was taken "in character"; at the end of the day, we're not "CharOp" (or else we'd post PunPun), but we're attempting to optimize the weaker prestige classes.

In regards to break down; you can do both, but the breakdown is where you show off how good you are that particular level; it helps to have some number crunching in. For example, Yoda training Luke in the use of Lightsaber might make him a consumate swordsman; however, mechanically, that might mean "Weapon Focus", and +1 to hit. This might just be the start of his training, (as a Prerequisite for a feat), or it might be all he ever achieves in his swordsmanship skills, being a slightly wasted feat, and isn't all that powerful.

Korahir

2013-08-14, 04:18 PM

a dish without a backstory is nutrition without flavour.

Btw. anyone willing to trade [Redacted] for a feat?

Aaron_C

2013-08-14, 04:35 PM

Okay. Thanks. I'll try to get the creative juices going a bit more for a good backstory and add some more numbers and mechanics to the breakdowns. I think I know how to do so without bogging down or rewriting what I've already written.

Thanks Again!

Vaz

2013-08-14, 04:36 PM

@Korahir.

No.

Aaron_C

2013-08-14, 04:44 PM

Bwahahaha
"MODDOKH: MODDOKH... MODDOKH IS SO EMBARASSED!"
hahahaha!

Jurai

2013-08-14, 05:02 PM

Is there room for one more? I'm interested in trying this out.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-14, 05:28 PM

Is there room for one more? I'm interested in trying this out.

But of course! Just submit something to the Chair (that'd be me) by PM before the submission period ends.

Aaron_C

2013-08-14, 05:47 PM

I just found these :belkar:
I think I just had a little nerdgasm.

Amphetryon

2013-08-14, 06:02 PM

Kuulvheysoon is going to get so many entries with [redacted]. . . .

Venger

2013-08-14, 06:08 PM

Kuulvheysoon is going to get so many entries with [redacted]. . . .

I knew this was going to be a bad round for originality!

Vaz

2013-08-14, 07:04 PM

I reckon that they'll all have [Redacted] Sun Ninja in it.

mattie_p

2013-08-14, 07:18 PM

I reckon that they'll all have Shadow Sun Ninja in it.

What? That is my idea!! Stop posting spoilers!

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-14, 07:22 PM

I reckon that they'll all have Shadow Sun Ninja in it.

Please stop telling potential build spoilers.:smalltongue:

Vaz

2013-08-14, 07:29 PM

Fixed, sorry!

CommodoreCrunch

2013-08-14, 08:59 PM

If there's room, consider my name in the hat. Got a cool idea for this one.

Haluesen

2013-08-14, 10:06 PM

Commodore, there is always room. :smallsmile: The more the merrier! (Maybe not so much for the judges, but you can't be nice to everyone. :smallbiggrin: )

I just had what I feel is a hilariously awesomely original idea for this. :smallcool: In truth, I don't see it scoring high. But it's an idea I've wanted to try for a while that the SI makes so much sweeter. It'll at least be a flavorful dish, that's for sure.

Aaron_C

2013-08-14, 10:37 PM

Not for this one, but for future reference. What is the ruling on retraining feats and skill points when it comes to these contests?

Vknight

2013-08-14, 11:39 PM

Venger

2013-08-15, 12:00 AM

Not for this one, but for future reference. What is the ruling on retraining feats and skill points when it comes to these contests?

That is a good question. I don't know!
I'm betting its an elegance penaltyor at least for me that's what it will be

Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.

No retraining allowed.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-15, 11:03 AM

Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.

No retraining allowed.

Ah, but retraining appears in PHBII, not UA. By the letter of the law, it (and any other alternate rule systems provided in sources that aren't UA) is kosher :smalltongue:.

Feilith

2013-08-15, 01:18 PM

Regardless i think it'd warrant an elegance penalty

Kreuz

2013-08-15, 01:34 PM

How does total concealment interact with a Hide check? I mean, IF you perform a hide check while you have total concealment... is anything different from having concealment, regarding the Hide skill?

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-15, 01:52 PM

Typically, if you have total concealment, you don't need to make a hide check because the enemy can't see you.

Kreuz

2013-08-15, 02:07 PM

So, no Light within Darkness while in total concealment?

Aaron_C

2013-08-15, 03:48 PM

Typically, if you have total concealment, you don't need to make a hide check because the enemy can't see you.

You don't NEED to make a hide check. But you certainly can. In fact, if you want to be stealthed upon leaving your cover or concealment, you'd have to make your first check prior to leaving it.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-15, 04:43 PM

From the SRD, under the section for Hide:

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

(Emphasis mine.)

The "special" section referenced just gives the rules for attempting to spot an invisible opponent.

Aaron_C

2013-08-15, 04:55 PM

From the SRD, under the section for Hide:

(Emphasis mine.)

The "special" section referenced just gives the rules for attempting to spot an invisible opponent.

"obviates the need"

You don't have to, but it doesn't say you can't. ;)

Kreuz

2013-08-15, 07:41 PM

I asked Curmudgeon about it, and he said that you cannot perform a Hide check in total concealment.

My interpretation (given this answer) is that since it is an opposed check and the enemy has no way to make a Spot check without line of sight, you cannot make a Hide check.

mattie_p

2013-08-15, 08:49 PM

While true, given the plethora of ways to detect creatures with total concealment and the fact that you never know if they are trying to find you, it might be best to hide anyway, on the off chance thatit matt ers.

Aaron_C

2013-08-15, 08:49 PM

Copied directly from the PHB.

Concealment and Hide Checks: You can use concealment to
make a Hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover
to make a Hide check.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not
line of sight (for instance, if he is in total darkness or invisible, or if
you’re blinded), he is considered to have total concealment from
you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment,
though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A
successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total
concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss
chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent
with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the
opponent occupies.

Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents
may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible
character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide
checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving
(even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure
out where you are from other visual clues).

DisasterArea42

2013-08-15, 09:10 PM

I think I might enter this one. I have an idea that may or may not be original, but it won't get out of my head.

WhamBamSam

2013-08-16, 12:07 AM

Problems keep cropping up in my build, but I'm going to squeeze functionality out of it even if I have to wring out every drop of elegance to do so. I just love my idea too much to let it go.

sabelo2000

2013-08-16, 12:54 AM

First draft of build done! Now for proofreading and spell-level-checking.

Gonna get toasted on this one, but oh well.

Dumbledore lives

2013-08-17, 04:27 AM

I think I've got an idea for this one. It may not be too unique, but then again it might be obscure enough or obvious enough to work.

Biotroll

2013-08-17, 10:26 AM

Build submited. Aiming for originality and elegance score of 1.5 :smallbiggrin:.

JanusJones

2013-08-17, 10:33 AM

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-17, 10:57 AM

<Throws hat in ring.>

Awesome. Very excited to see that.

I just made a major last minute change to the build, and everything has more or less fallen into place. Now I just need to work up skills and then do the write-up.

Vaz

2013-08-17, 11:02 AM

Well, I've got my build and background sorted, and just doing the write up. Got a few hours to spare, gonna see if I get it done in that time. Got a couple of other ideas I'd like to explore as well so want to get this build signed off soonish!

IronFist

2013-08-17, 11:25 AM

<Throws hat in ring.>

are you THE JanusJones?

Amphetryon

2013-08-17, 11:29 AM

<Throws hat in ring.>

JanusJones is joining the Iron Chef. JanusJones is joining the Iron Chef.

SQUEE followed by TERROR.

IronFist

2013-08-17, 11:44 AM

I'm prepared to be overwhelmed with awesome.

Aaron_C

2013-08-17, 12:02 PM

Okie dokie. New here. Who's Janus Jones?

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-17, 12:06 PM

An old school member of 339, the old Wizards CharOp board before it was gutted by WotC. Probably most notable for writing the first Dragonfire Adept handbook, if my memory serves, as well as helping to popularize the Factotum and doing some early Incarnum optimizing.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-17, 12:06 PM

<Throws hat in ring.>

I have a feeling I know which entry will be yours :smallamused:.

Okie dokie. New here. Who's Janus Jones?

A well-renowned optimizer and author of a bunch of helpful handbooks and other threads. Welcome!

Amphetryon

2013-08-17, 12:08 PM

Okie dokie. New here. Who's Janus Jones?

Imagine starting up a little lunch truck business, attracting a few customers, and then having Gordon Ramsey show up to see what all the fuss was about.

Vaz

2013-08-17, 12:12 PM

{scrubbed}

Haluesen

2013-08-17, 01:01 PM

Ooh this sounds most impressive. :smallsmile: Hello Jones! It is good to meet you. I wish you well in this contest. :smallbiggrin:

And everyone else too of course. Vaz, Amph, Ponies, Piggy, Aaron, and everyone else I missed. :smallredface: Of course my goal is still 3rd place, not stopping til I make it. :smallamused: Unfortunately haven't even started my build yet, been too busy, though I have a great idea.

Aaron_C

2013-08-17, 01:04 PM

dysprosium

2013-08-17, 01:06 PM

And this contest just got even more interesting . . .

I will place higher than the median which I have seem to end up lately.

Maybe not this round but some day soon. Some day soon . . .

The Viscount

2013-08-17, 03:12 PM

Wow, it's a good thing I'm not competing then. Good luck everybody, this is an infuriatingly difficult SI.

amalthia

2013-08-18, 08:55 AM

well I have decided to participate

questionmark693

2013-08-18, 01:57 PM

I've never done this before, but I'm actually playing a character that's taking the easy entry into this class, so I want to try it. But a couple questions-are fractional base attack bonuses/saves ok, or does that fall under alternate rules from UA?

Vaz

2013-08-18, 02:10 PM

I entered a Build a few months ago requiring Fractional BAB to make it actually work. Among other things, it was one of the things hosed for an Elegance penalty.

As such, I'd suggest that you try to rethink the exact build if it requires the use of such an alternate rule system if possible. However, if once your build is finalised, you recognise that the build would benefit from the alternate rule system it is worth including IMHO on an adaptations section, i.e. a BAB <15 character gaining BAB16+ for the extra attack is possibly worth a slight point in power (dependent on Judge, obviously).

JanusJones

2013-08-18, 02:13 PM

:smallredface: I think that's the first time I've ever had a "the" in front of an acronym.

I'm humbled to be welcomed so warmly to Kitchen Stadium, and I salute the Chairmen and the Judges, as well as my fellow competitors. <Poses in front of dry ice smoke and back-lights>

This is a great idea! What fun! Can't wait!

My only concern is that, being from the old school of optimization, my cooking techniques are more or less deconstructive cooking: I'm interested in the particulate elements that compose each flavor and texture, and have no issues with separating them from their original ingredients in order to achieve recombinations that meet my gustatory goals.

(In other words, I could care less what a class is called or the fluff attached to its mechanics - what it does, and what I can use it to do in combination with elements from other classes, is what matters to me. The end result justifies the means, and if it smells, tastes, and floats on the tongue like I want it to, I don't care if I have to use a variety of weird elements to cook the damn thing!).

Given that any judgment of flavors is, in essence, a matter of aesthetics and palate, my dishes may surprise and even offend some sensibilities. Anyone devoted to traditional techniques and the sanctity of ingredients may find my dishes avant garde - or even perverse. The Elegance category could well spell my downfall - I'll do my best to work sparingly with my ingredients and respect the rules and expectations of the stadium, illustrious Chairman, and Judges.

Haluesen

2013-08-18, 03:17 PM

It'll be good to have you here Janus. :smallbiggrin:

So, still haven't started writing it up yet but I have a crazy, fun, stupid idea I want to work out. I see mid Elegance, mid Power, high Originality. As for UotSI...that's the challenge isn't it? :smallwink: I'll figure out something cool.

Vaz

2013-08-18, 03:40 PM

Out of interest, what is the view held (especially by the judges, but in general) of the whole "Poison is evil" rule; i.e would it be termed that using Poison is "evil", or is that one of them "forgotten" rules?

Edit; don't know if this is helpful, just rustled up a quick and dirty table for initiators hopefully matching that layout for spells.

{table=head]Level|Maneuvres Known|Maneuvres Readied|Stances Known

1st | - | - | -

2nd | - | - | -

3rd | - | - | -

4th | - | - | -

5th | - | - | -

6th | - | - | -

7th | - | - | -

8th | - | - | -

9th | - | - | -

10th | - | - | -

11th | - | - | -

12th | - | - | -

13th | - | - | -

14th | - | - | -

15th | - | - | -

16th | - | - | -

17th | - | - | -

18th | - | - | -

19th | - | - | -

20th | - | - | -[/table]

{table=head]Level|Maneuvres Known|Maneuvres Readied|Stances Known

1st | - | - | -

2nd | - | - | -

3rd | - | - | -

4th | - | - | -

5th | - | - | -

6th | - | - | -

7th | - | - | -

8th | - | - | -

9th | - | - | -

10th | - | - | -

11th | - | - | -

12th | - | - | -

13th | - | - | -

14th | - | - | -

15th | - | - | -

16th | - | - | -

17th | - | - | -

18th | - | - | -

19th | - | - | -

20th | - | - | -{table]

Jurai

2013-08-18, 05:32 PM

I would be surprised if I got anything on Elegance, myself, JanusJones. But Flavor, I've got that in spades. I think.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-20, 07:25 AM

My entry is just about done. Table, level-by-level and description are all complete; now it's a question of finishing out the fluff and then furiously revising every single thing at the last minute, if this goes anything like my previous entries do.

I'm sure some folks will at least go in a similar direction as me, but I'm confident I've got a few tricks up my sleeve that won't be seen elsewhere. But only time will tell...

Amphetryon

2013-08-20, 08:04 AM

Barring unforeseen circumstances, I should have my entry submitted today. Hopefully, it won't exactly mirror other entries.

Deadline

2013-08-20, 09:36 AM

My entry is just about done. Table, level-by-level and description are all complete; now it's a question of finishing out the fluff and then furiously revising every single thing at the last minute, if this goes anything like my previous entries do.

I know that feeling. Right now I'm looking over the ruined kitchenscape, straining to hear which build concepts are calling out to me. So far, I'm having a very difficult time deciding.

*sigh* I think my dishes may suffer in more than one area this time around.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-08-20, 09:50 AM

Since I won't be near my books for the rest of the week, I'll have to bow out of this competion.

Deadline

2013-08-20, 11:06 AM

Oh my ... that idea fell unexpectedly into place. I think I'll be submitting two dishes this time around. I'll need to think on this a bit.

Vaz

2013-08-20, 11:52 AM

Still not finished mine. I've had the build, but it's got so many working parts that trying to explain it is taking far too long.

Seriously considering dropping it, and going for the easiest one.

dysprosium

2013-08-20, 12:22 PM

Still working on the fluff for mine . . .

Looking to have two entries this time around

Aaron_C

2013-08-20, 12:41 PM

Oh my ... that idea fell unexpectedly into place. I think I'll be submitting two dishes this time around. I'll need to think on this a bit.

You can do more than one???
Oh Myyyyy!

dysprosium

2013-08-20, 12:43 PM

You can do more than one???

Yes you can. I entered three into Cipher Adept.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-20, 01:00 PM

You can do more than one???

Oh yeah. I've done two on occasion, and once snagged both Gold and Silver. Granted, some rounds (like this one) leave me with only enough strength for one real dish. I've got another I'm kicking around for Originality points, but it would probably lose more in Elegance and UoSI than I'd gain in power.

Kreuz

2013-08-20, 01:29 PM

I was working on something special that depended on interpretation... but that means a hit in elegance. I think I'd rather take that hit in originality... back to playing it safe.

Roguenewb

2013-08-20, 03:34 PM

What is the rule on fractional BAB?

Deadline

2013-08-20, 04:05 PM

What is the rule on fractional BAB?

It's an alternate rule system from UA, so as per the rules it's a no go. However, several folks have often included mention of it in an "Adaptations" section, if it is relevant. Some judges have been known to favorably consider such things, so long as they aren't listed as being critical to the build.

Korahir

2013-08-20, 04:08 PM

Do we have any judges yet? Submitted my build already to avoid any last minute panicking and rebuilding. Really don't know what how to feel about it, though.

IronFist

2013-08-20, 06:02 PM

OK. I will be a judge for this.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-20, 06:36 PM

I believe VKnight mentioned potentially judging as well?

Feilith

2013-08-20, 06:51 PM

I just moved into college, so if time permits I'll try to judge this one too

Haluesen

2013-08-20, 08:50 PM

I actually may not be able to enter this one. :smallfrown: College classes are hitting me hard right now, and between those and a couple campaigns I don't feel that I really have much time to work on a good build. We shall see.

Darkcouch

2013-08-20, 10:52 PM

I'm throwing in to judge this round if life doesn't kick me in the funbag. I had an idea with potential, but not enough potential that I think it would be more than an also ran, so not gonna waste the judges' time.

Amphetryon

2013-08-21, 09:47 AM

Character submitted. At your convenience, Chairman, please confirm receipt.

Deadline

2013-08-21, 04:43 PM

Gaah! Slogging through these tables is hard enough! Why oh why can't I seem to plot out the levels, skills, and feats first and finalize them before filling out the table?

Currently on revision 9 of my dish. I'll cook this goose whether it likes it or not! C'mere you! *sounds of panicked honks and crashing kitchen utensils*

WhamBamSam

2013-08-21, 09:13 PM

Build submitted. It will either be a spectacular success or a catastrophic failure. There is no middle ground.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-08-22, 10:15 AM

Character submitted. At your convenience, Chairman, please confirm receipt.

Confirmed, good sir.

questionmark693

2013-08-22, 12:55 PM

I found something halfway original :D feeling good about originality, if not elegance. UoSI should be halfway decent also :)

Amphetryon

2013-08-22, 12:57 PM

I found something halfway original :D feeling good about originality, if not elegance. UoSI should be halfway decent also :)

Who wants to bet on how many of us found the same "halfway original" concept?

:smallamused:

Dusk Eclipse

2013-08-22, 12:58 PM

10 GP sounds good?

WhamBamSam

2013-08-22, 01:14 PM

Who wants to bet on how many of us found the same "halfway original" concept?

:smallamused:I for one think that my build is genuinely weird this time, and I'll be surprised if anyone else is doing the same thing. I'm guessing that a solid quarter of the entries go the exact same way with the fluff though, and that's saying something with how many builds we're likely to get this round.

dysprosium

2013-08-22, 01:52 PM

I'm guesing about 37 builds this round.

Vknight

2013-08-22, 03:03 PM

I'm guesing about 37 builds this round.

Hmmm 37 builds well that will take me 37 minutes:smallbiggrin:

OMG PONIES

2013-08-22, 03:33 PM

Up against a deadline and my internet at home goes on the fritz? Yeah, I'll be judging. Criteria soon to come, my two ideas (which I think are decently original) to be posted only after the reveal if not done better by another.

I'm guesing about 37 builds this round.

Why must you torment me so?

Hmmm 37 builds well that will take me 37 minutes:smallbiggrin:

Psh. I'll clock in at 37 hours if I'm lucky, and that's even if there's only a handful of entries.

My Criteria

Each entry will start at a base score of 12 (3 in each category), with deductions or bonuses awarded based on the following questions:

Originality:
Does the entry present a compelling backstory/concept?
Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains?
Does the entry avoid known cheese and overused optimization suggestions?
Power:
Does the entry surpass a hypothetical build that continues in the base class used for qualification?
Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers?
Does the entry thrive without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power?
Does the entry contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility?
Elegance:
Does the entry qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry qualify for all feats taken?
Does the entry avoid reliance on any questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the entry avoid multi-class penalties and excessive dipping*?
UoSI:
Does the entry qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the entry complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry synergize all unique mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build?
Does the entry complement the concept of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?

*Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class or prestige class and "excessive" is defined as two or more instances of dipping. Please note that my definition of excessive has been tightened this time around.
Each of the questions above can be answered in one of three ways. A straight "yes" will earn a +0.5 bonus to the category in question. A straight "no" will suffer a -0.5 penalty to the category, and an ambivalent "yes and no" will wash out with no adjustment to the category. If there are any questions about the clarity of my criteria in general, please post them openly so I can address. If there are any disagreements with particular scores, please PM the chairman as part of the regular dispute process.

dysprosium

2013-08-22, 03:43 PM

Why must you torment me so?

Well since you are now judging, I'll say 36 entries now. :smalltongue:

Deadline

2013-08-22, 04:18 PM

I'm cooking with some exotic spices that I haven't used before this time around, and it is looking more and more likely that I'll only have the time to get one dish submitted. If I don't get my second dish in, I'll mention the build idea after the reveal.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-22, 05:18 PM

Psh. I'll clock in at 37 hours if I'm lucky, and that's even if there's only a handful of entries.

Yeah, that sounds about right for me. I've eyeballed it at about an hour per entry for me when judging, sometimes a little more.

questionmark693

2013-08-22, 07:59 PM

I hope my build genuinely has a bit of originality to it...but I guess we'll see.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-23, 06:44 AM

I hope my build genuinely has a bit of originality to it...but I guess we'll see.

[Insert original comment about getting Originality points by using Shadow Sun Ninja]

Also, prior post has been updated to include criteria.

Korahir

2013-08-23, 07:35 AM

I feel like there will be no middleground considering originality. You either go the obvious route or something bat **** crazy.

Also: Gone for a couple of days. Best friend's bachelor party :smallbiggrin:

JanusJones

2013-08-23, 12:23 PM

Sigh.

I may have to bow out this round. I have four full builds, but putting them into the stat blocks is intensely time-consuming. I even wrote up an extensive set of short-stories linking each, but my computer went in to the Genius Bar (I'm on my wife's) and I'm now AFB (I gave away my entire hard-copy library to some of my high-school students who I ran a game for a year back, and now all that remains are pdfs).

Argh!

I'll do my best to meet deadline, but either way I just want to express how much I've enjoyed this contest just as a thought-challenge! Such a great way to put a contest together, and a fun idea all around!

Here's hoping I make deadline, and hats off to other competitors, judges, and the chairman!

123456789blaaa

2013-08-23, 01:25 PM

dysprosium

2013-08-23, 01:36 PM

Holy crap FOUR :smalleek:! No wonder you don't have enough time. I think that's the most we've ever had from one person.

I had three in the Cipher Adept round.

Now I have to try and get four in this one . . . (Sorry Ponies)

Roguenewb

2013-08-23, 01:54 PM

My build is submitted (confirmation would be nice if you have time). I think I'm doing something no one else is, but I'm paying for it in Power.

Biotroll

2013-08-23, 02:23 PM

Haluesen

2013-08-23, 02:39 PM

You can always suprise us with the builds once the deadline for cooking is over. I'm sure everyone is interested. :smalltongue:

Definitely agreeing here. No matter what you should show off your skills somehow. :smallsmile: I plan to show my idea after Sunday, hoping others can help me round it out for a future character or just give input.

dysprosium

2013-08-24, 12:43 AM

I have submitted my build Mr Chairman.

Three to go . . .

Deadline

2013-08-24, 03:04 AM

Good Chairman, my dish is completed and sent. At your convenience, please confirm your receipt of it, in it's entirety (had to break it into two posts).

I feel pretty good about this one, which must mean I'm doomed to be sitting at the bottom of the heap. Also, given just how long this one took, and the fact that I just don't have a story put together for the other dish, I'm only submitting the one this time around.

A.A.King

2013-08-24, 03:54 AM

In the end I got nothing, but I'm very curious what others made

Vaz

2013-08-24, 06:03 AM

Not too sure if I can make this one, got a new job starting later. will try!

However, fun fact, my new boss's name is Christopher Peter Balls.

Or Chris P. Balls. Hilarious.

Vknight

2013-08-24, 07:46 AM

Up against a deadline and my internet at home goes on the fritz? Yeah, I'll be judging. Criteria soon to come, my two ideas (which I think are decently original) to be posted only after the reveal if not done better by another.

Psh. I'll clock in at 37 hours if I'm lucky, and that's even if there's only a handful of entries.

An hour per entry. Hmmm I guess really for me it will depend on the sizes for each build and the amount of material I'll need to reference

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-24, 08:48 AM

OK, finally finished the fluff on my entry, so I just need to source it and double-check for errors.

I'll post some of my other ideas after the reveal.

EDIT: And... submitted! Good luck, all! I'm excited to see the reveal.

CommodoreCrunch

2013-08-24, 10:45 AM

Aaaand submitted! This build really got away from me. In no way does it resemble what I had initially thought of, and I'm quite pleased by that.

Herr Chairman, if you would be so kind as to confirm receipt of my submission?

OMG PONIES

2013-08-24, 11:21 AM

Not too sure if I can make this one, got a new job starting later. will try!

However, fun fact, my new boss's name is Christopher Peter Balls.

Or Chris P. Balls. Hilarious.

I once worked for a Richard Ball, III (forum blocks what he went by, but it's a common abbreviation of his first name). When I told my mom, she laughed for five straight minutes not just at his name, but the fact that he is the third person in his family whose parents thought that name sounded good.

Piggy Knowles

2013-08-24, 11:25 AM

One of the attorneys I used to work for was named Robin Banks. Maybe it's because I've spent way too long around roller derby names, but I was completely incapable of hearing that as anything but "robbin' banks."

On-topic: Just for fun, I went ahead and completed the build stub of one of my abandoned ideas. I'm not going to submit it or anything - I abandoned it because it has some flaws, and there's no way I can put together anything other than a half-arsed build this late in the game, but I do kind of wish I'd spent more time going in this direction. It's not as good as the build I ended up submitting, in any category, but it's definitely cooler :smallcool:

EDIT:

I once worked for a Richard Ball, III (forum blocks what he went by, but it's a common abbreviation of his first name). When I told my mom, she laughed for five straight minutes not just at his name, but the fact that he is the third person in his family whose parents thought that name sounded good.

Well hey, if you've been saddled with a terribly awkward name, you can either spend your life being ashamed of it or just seriously own it. I guess the Balls took the latter route :smalltongue:

Amphetryon

2013-08-24, 11:35 AM

I once worked for a Richard Ball, III (forum blocks what he went by, but it's a common abbreviation of his first name). When I told my mom, she laughed for five straight minutes not just at his name, but the fact that he is the third person in his family whose parents thought that name sounded good.

My mother was classmates with a Patricia Bottum. Friends called her Patty.

sabelo2000

2013-08-24, 12:58 PM

Almost done.. wish there was a real-time clock on this forum... Time check!

Vaz

2013-08-24, 01:11 PM

Just a little under 29 hours as of typing this message, I believe. When I used to play Runescape, the forum I used to be a part of had event signatures which would show the time left until the event occured. I'll see if I can dig out the address from where they were.

DisasterArea42

2013-08-24, 02:50 PM

I've had the technical bits done for the most part since Tuesday or Wednesday. I get some fluff down and when I look at it later it just doesn't work for me. I'll post what I had build wise after the entries go up, but I'm not going to post up an entry with fluff I am not satisfied with.

OMG PONIES

2013-08-24, 04:28 PM

Well hey, if you've been saddled with a terribly awkward name, you can either spend your life being ashamed of it or just seriously own it. I guess the Balls took the latter route :smalltongue:

I guess you could say that takes...Balls. (http://mirrors.rit.edu/instantCSI/)