Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

[Amphetryon]

*Starts reading up on Scorpion Heritor*

[Venger]

What's this one from?

that's from faiths of eberron.

[Keynub]

Aw. I don't have any Eberron stuff.

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't like robots in my medieval fantasy. :smalltongue:

[Venger]

Aw. I don't have any Eberron stuff.

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't like robots in my medieval fantasy. :smalltongue:

because core has no monsters like that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) :smalltongue:

[Keynub]

because core has no monsters like that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) :smalltongue:

Yeah, but Inevitables are... I don't know, planar? Otherworldly?

It feels like I'm making excuses, but in truth, there's something that feels right about Inevitables and wrong about Warforged.

It's not even the planarness per se. I really like Maugs too.

[Venger]

It feels like I'm making excuses, but in truth, there's something that feels right about Inevitables and wrong about Warforged.

It's not even the planarness per se. I really like Maugs too.

I have literally nothing to say to that.


Anyway, read races of eberron for some knowledge about their culture and history. Writers drew heavily on slave culture in the US during the early to mid 1800s, it's some fascinating stuff. You might change your mind.

[Piggy Knowles]

See, I absolutely love Eberron, while the Realms are interesting but only to a point. Maybe it's because I never read any of the novels, or maybe it's because the realms always felt like a stock fantasy world, while Eberron really did feel fresh to me when it first came out. I'm sure if I were coming into things now, I'd find Eberron tame and boring...

Of course, even Eberron is a distant second as far as settings go. Truly, first will probably always belong to Spelljammer...

[Keynub]

I have literally nothing to say to that.


Anyway, read races of eberron for some knowledge about their culture and history. Writers drew heavily on slave culture in the US during the early to mid 1800s, it's some fascinating stuff. You might change your mind.

That would involve buying Races of Eberron.

Which I just might do, since you just sparked my interest. Here goes my rent money.

EDIT : Spelljammer is Elves in Space, right?

[Venger]

See, I absolutely love Eberron, while the Realms are interesting but only to a point. Maybe it's because I never read any of the novels, or maybe it's because the realms always felt like a stock fantasy world, while Eberron really did feel fresh to me when it first came out. I'm sure if I were coming into things now, I'd find Eberron tame and boring...

Of course, even Eberron is a distant second as far as settings go. Truly, first will probably always belong to Spelljammer...

Agree for eberron as best campaign setting.

absolutely read races of eberron, five nations and dragonmarked. best for eberron's history and different cultures

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT : Spelljammer is Elves in Space, right?

Quite. Or, more importantly... HIPPOS IN SPACE!

http://www.spelljammer.org/monsters/conversions/Giff2.gif

Listen, I was eight or nine years old when I first got my hands on Spelljammer. It made a big impression :smalltongue:

[Keynub]

http://www.spelljammer.org/monsters/conversions/Giff2.gif

This abomination looks like it comes out of some of the worst Doctor Who serials.

I remember now.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3599/3620937011_6578c82d2e.jpg

The Giant Space Hamster, first introduced to me by Baldur's Gate, and I found out about Spelljammer by looking it up.

How painful.

[Korahir]

Three judges! Huzzah! Thanks whambamsam. I really didn't think we would get 3 judgings in a 19 dishes entried round.

[Piggy Knowles]

This abomination looks like it comes out of some of the worst Doctor Who serials.

Why, I don't know what you mean...

http://www.starstills.com/product_images/c/doctor_who_judoon_lifesize_cutout_buy_now_at_stars tills__54708.jpg

[Keynub]

Why, I don't know what you mean...



To ho flo so kro ho lo.

(Actually, I liked that episode quite a bit.)

Hey, I found the Thief of Life (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a&page=3) in an official online Wizards source!

Will be reading now.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Disputes!
I expected that using Ghostwalk would get some sideways looks in this competition, but the logic given by the honorable Judges doesn't sit well with me.

Amphetryon calls it "Known Cheese" and I admit, Ophelia does smell more like Brie than Velveeta. But I've never seen Ghostwalk used in this competition or discussed on these boards, so (more as a question than a dispute) my rebuttal is, "Known to whom?"

But my real issue is with Dysprosium and WhamBamSam's rulings. They indicate, severally, that the template rates a scoring penalty because (a) it doesn't have a LA and (b) WoTC didn't errata it in 3.5 to include a LA.

In a competition that's specifically designed around squeezing every bit of RAW abuse possible, the argument of "It doesn't have a LA penalty, but it should, so have a scoring penalty instead" is a bit odoriferous.

Whether builds were penalized or gained bonus for multiclassing-

many people recommend ignoring XP penalties, becase they're bad for balance. All they do is penalize low op mundanes.
They shouldn't have made the transition from 3.0 to 3.5. It was an editing error.


Captain Tardis
You can’t apply inherited templates to your animal companion, so a magebred dire wolf isn’t kosher. (-0.5)
< PHB p35 > A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind
except as noted in the sidebar on page 36 - Animal Companion Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the
companion’s kind, as given in the Monster Manual, but make the following changes.
ALTERNATIVE ANIMAL COMPANIONS 7th Level or Higher (Level –6) Dire wolf

With past competitions rulings that have permited various things on the premis of the DM allowing it - Nothing within the rules above says that the DM could not allow a templated animal companion that would in fact be completely typical for its kind.

Thank you for your judging. I found your critiques overall fair, but I have one dispute to make. WhamBamSam, you mention Races of the Wild being the most recent version of the feat, but Complete Adventurer was also published in February of '05. This was the version of the feat I used.

(As before, read all Guardian of Metal Quotes in Ozzy Osbourne's voice)

Amphetryon - Carifications

Use of the SI
http://i43.tinypic.com/2cwr50z.jpg

Guardian of Metal: "Not sure what you're on about with weaknesses mate. The only one I spotted (besides his awful hairstyle choice) was his slow reflexes. But the Power of Metal has that sorted."

I'm not sure what you mean by weaknesses in your breakdown. If it was in reference to his Reflex save, he's got a maneuver to substitute Concentration (and therefor Perform) for it instead. Mostly, I was just a bit unclear on this one.

Amphetryon & Whambamsam - Disputes

Originality
http://30plusgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/cele-ozzy.jpg

Guardian of Metal: "All right, all right. You don't have to remind me that the various flavors of humanity make the best musicians, I already know that. But doesn't my man Baelfire get just a little credit for slaying people with the power of Metal?"

I was a little disappointed there was no commentary on the ability to kill people with Perform checks via the Insightful Strike/Undersong combo. I've seen Undersong used for the save maneuvers, but not for smiting people down. I thought it was a neat little deal myself. That said, it's awfully hard to dispute anything you said, so if there is no adjustment I understand.

Power (Just Whambamsam)
http://images.wikia.com/brutallegend/images/1/19/Guardian_Something.png

Guardian of Metal: "I dunno if you missed it, but Baelfire does crank up the noise about midway through his career. I almost missed it myself but then, I'm missing almost all of 1986 as well."

Baelfire bumps his Inspire Courage by +1 at Ninth Level, not 19th with the Song of the Heart feat. I'm not sure that factors into your score at all, or if it was a typo on your part. There's also +1 from his Inspirational Boost spell. So he's sitting on +3 Inspire courage, not just +2.

TO ALL JUDGES THIS ROUND
http://i39.tinypic.com/2dilvkh.png

Guardian of Metal: "You've been a beautiful audience, you have. Your fantastic job judging means that the Gods of Metal are pleased. Go forth and ROCK THE **** OUT!"whitetextwhitetextwhitetext

[mattie_p]

I, also, am excited for three judges. I'm also eagerly awaiting the reveal, for various reasons.

[WhamBamSam]

But my real issue is with Dysprosium and WhamBamSam's rulings. They indicate, severally, that the template rates a scoring penalty because (a) it doesn't have a LA and (b) WoTC didn't errata it in 3.5 to include a LA.

In a competition that's specifically designed around squeezing every bit of RAW abuse possible, the argument of "It doesn't have a LA penalty, but it should, so have a scoring penalty instead" is a bit odoriferous.I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that the competition is designed around squeezing every bit of RAW abuse possible. That's kind of been done already. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486) This is an exercise in PO above all else, and sometimes that means being aware when things might get books thrown at your head. As I said, unlisted LA counting as LA+0 is probably the RAW, but there are plenty of people, even hardcore optimizers on these boards, who would see something like Ghostwalk ghost or unseelie fey as questionable. I personally would allow it as a DM, but I stand by my decision to give you a small rap on the knuckles. Score stands. You got a lot more points from the template than you lost, if that's any consolation.


Whether builds were penalized or gained bonus for multiclassing-

many people recommend ignoring XP penalties, becase they're bad for balance. All they do is penalize low op mundanes.
They shouldn't have made the transition from 3.0 to 3.5. It was an editing error.


Captain Tardis
You can’t apply inherited templates to your animal companion, so a magebred dire wolf isn’t kosher. (-0.5)
< PHB p35 > A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind
except as noted in the sidebar on page 36 - Animal Companion Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the
companion’s kind, as given in the Monster Manual, but make the following changes.
ALTERNATIVE ANIMAL COMPANIONS 7th Level or Higher (Level –6) Dire wolf

With past competitions rulings that have permited various things on the premis of the DM allowing it - Nothing within the rules above says that the DM could not allow a templated animal companion that would in fact be completely typical for its kind.I absolutely agree on multiclass penalties, but they are RAW. Disregarding them is a common houserule, but it's a house rule nonetheless. That might seem contradictory with the above statement, but basically they both amount to needing your DM to be nice to you in a way that is by no means guaranteed in the average game.

Dire Wolf is listed as a possible animal companion. Magebred Dire Wolf is not. A Magebred Dire Wolf is typical of Magebred Dire Wolves, but it isn't typical of Dire Wolves by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, DM fiat can get around that, but DM fiat can get around everything. Score stands.


Thank you for your judging. I found your critiques overall fair, but I have one dispute to make. WhamBamSam, you mention Races of the Wild being the most recent version of the feat, but Complete Adventurer was also published in February of '05. This was the version of the feat I used.Huh... You're absolutely right. I penalized Babalon for that as well, so that should be reversed in both cases. Add +0.5 points to Ari's and Babalon's point totals.


I was a little disappointed there was no commentary on the ability to kill people with Perform checks via the Insightful Strike/Undersong combo. I've seen Undersong used for the save maneuvers, but not for smiting people down. I thought it was a neat little deal myself. That said, it's awfully hard to dispute anything you said, so if there is no adjustment I understand.

Baelfire bumps his Inspire Courage by +1 at Ninth Level, not 19th with the Song of the Heart feat. I'm not sure that factors into your score at all, or if it was a typo on your part. There's also +1 from his Inspirational Boost spell. So he's sitting on +3 Inspire courage, not just +2.Fun as the Undersong trick is, I'm afraid that the Originality score stands.

The Song of the Heart/Inspirational boost was something that I just missed though. So effectiveness at the things you do should be (+0.5), not (+0.25). Add +0.25 points to Baelfire's total.

Random aside. I was kind of surprised not to see Song of the White Raven fluffed as playing really fast on a metal themed Bardblade.

[CyberThread]

Well my ratings are in



everyone gets -2's, this thread is to long for me to read everything ever stated, so Am just giving everyone -2's to keep things interesting.

[Amphetryon]

Amphetryon calls it "Known Cheese" and I admit, Ophelia does smell more like Brie than Velveeta. But I've never seen Ghostwalk used in this competition or discussed on these boards, so (more as a question than a dispute) my rebuttal is, "Known to whom?I suggest perusal of other CharOp forums, such as the one linked above by WhamBamSam. There's at least one poster there who responded to virtually every request for help squeezing MOAR POWAH out of a build for several months with "Be a Ghostwalk Ghost," until he ultimately merely linked to the template/discussions of it in his .sig. In other words, it's not an obscure or unknown tactic, and by your own admission it's cheesy. That sounds like "known cheese," does it not?

Remember, we're not all working from the exact same level of CharOp knowledge; what's a fresh, new trick to one judge could well be yesterday's news to another. That's one of the consequences of having different judges.

@Baelfire: "Weaknesses" refers, in general, to things that Thrall of Orcus doesn't particularly excel at. It doesn't improve Bardic Music/Knowledge, or particularly help spellcasting (you didn't use any tricks I didn't already note to improve Caster level, for instance), to list two off the top of my head.

I saw the Undersong combo, and - though I did not expressly comment on it (blame the powdered cockatrice and absinthe) - it was a factor in your Power rating already. Rock on.

[The Viscount]

Wow, fast response to disputes, WhamBamSam. If it's not too much trouble, could you edit your judging post to reflect the new scores? It'll make things much easier when compiling for Hall of Heroes.

[OMG PONIES]

Tallies After Three Judges

{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Babalon|Gold|48.25|4.020833333
Derek "Baelfire" Bragg|Silver|46.25|3.854166667
Dobluth|Bronze|44.25|3.6875
Doctor Dellamorte|Fourth|44|3.666666667
Luxx|Fourth|44|3.666666667
Ari|Sixth|43.25|3.604166667
Ankou|Seventh|42.5|3.541666667
Ophelia|Eighth|42.25|3.520833333
Cara Skerritt|Ninth|42|3.5
Adrienne Fzembrel|Tenth|41.75|3.479166667
The Decaying Tears|Eleventh|38.5|3.208333333
Bill E. Kidd|Eleventh|38.5|3.208333333
The Frog Prince|Thirteenth|34.25|2.854166667
Thrall of Porkus|Fourteenth|31.25|2.604166667
Ruk Rak|Fifteenth|26.25|2.1875
Sentrosi|Sixteenth|8|2
Henry Oakenshield|Seventeenth|23.25|1.9375
Captain Tardis|Eighteenth|19.75|1.645833333[/table]

[relytdan]

Hey Ponies - last I checked 8 points was less than 19.75 - this is what it should be..

B]Tallies After Three Judges[/B]
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Babalon|Gold|48.25|4.020833333
Derek "Baelfire" Bragg|Silver|46.25|3.854166667
Dobluth|Bronze|44.25|3.6875
Doctor Dellamorte|Fourth|44|3.666666667
Luxx|Fifth|43.5|3.625
Ari|Sixth|43.25|3.604166667
Ankou|Seventh|42.5|3.541666667
Ophelia|Eighth|42.25|3.520833333
Cara Skerritt|Ninth|42|3.5
Adrienne Fzembrel|Tenth|41.75|3.479166667
The Decaying Tears|Eleventh|38.5|3.208333333
Bill E. Kidd|Eleventh|38.5|3.208333333
The Frog Prince|Thirteenth|34.25|2.854166667
Thrall of Porkus|Fourteenth|31.25|2.604166667
Ruk Rak|Fifteenth|26.25|2.1875
Henry Oakenshield|Sixteenth|23.25|1.9375
Captain Tardis|Seventeenth|19.75|1.645833333
Sentrosi|Eighteenth|8|2
[/table]

[Piggy Knowles]

I suspect Ponies is ordering his table by average score, rather than total points, which is why Sentrosi is placed at sixteenth instead of eighteenth.

Of course, it's up to the chairman how a build that has people declining to judge it gets scored. Does it go by the average score of whomever chose to judge it? Or does a refusal to judge a build count as a zero? I can't remember how we ended up deciding back in Bladesinger when the drider had a judge decline to score it...

[Kazyan]

Regarding the drider entry, we put it in a "Limbo" category in the ranking.

[Piggy Knowles]

Regarding the drider entry, we put it in a "Limbo" category in the ranking.

Makes sense. So, given that precedent, I assume that (barring no other judges), Captain Tardis will take 17th and Sentrosi will not be placed in the ranking at all.

[OMG PONIES]

Hey Ponies - last I checked 8 points was less than 19.75 - this is what it should be...


I suspect Ponies is ordering his table by average score, rather than total points, which is why Sentrosi is placed at sixteenth instead of eighteenth.

Indeed, 19.75 is still greater than 8. However, as Piggy pointed out, I rank entries by average score instead of total score. The reason for this is that I also maintain a universal ranking system on my spreadsheet that compares entries from all rounds of competition. If we used total scores, any round that had more judges would immediately have an unfair advantage. Instead, determining rank by average score evens the playing field.


Of course, it's up to the chairman how a build that has people declining to judge it gets scored. Does it go by the average score of whomever chose to judge it? Or does a refusal to judge a build count as a zero? I can't remember how we ended up deciding back in Bladesinger when the drider had a judge decline to score it...

I concur. If our Chair determines that everyone's favorite were-chicken shouldn't receive an official rank, I could always pull him.

[WhamBamSam]

Wow, fast response to disputes, WhamBamSam. If it's not too much trouble, could you edit your judging post to reflect the new scores? It'll make things much easier when compiling for Hall of Heroes.Done and done.

[OMG PONIES]

Well my ratings are in

everyone gets -2's, this thread is to long for me to read everything ever stated, so Am just giving everyone -2's to keep things interesting.

Sarcasm meter broken...not sure if I should put -2s in...spread...sheet *irk*

[The Viscount]

Much appreciated! It makes compiling so much easier. I probably should get on that, stuff must be piling up.

On a separate gnote, what do you guys think is our gnext SI? You all gnow what my vote is.

[Kuulvheysoon]

More disputes (Man, so this is what 3 judges x 19 entries looks like)

Amphetryon: level 3 Willing defority feat - getting penalties for not having what is clearly listed as a feat

Clearly it has the willing deformity feat at level 3
Dysprosium: In terms of Elegance, was the given score of 4.75 for Luxx because of a .25 deduction that wasn't mentioned in the comments, or did it lack the "X factor" that makes a build a 5 in your eyes? I'm assuming the latter, since I saw that no build received a 5 in Elegance from you, but was curious nonetheless. As such, this is more of an inquiry than a dispute.

Amphetryon: When it comes to Luxx's Power, you mentioned that I'm not the only entry who can pull off Wish shenanigans. While this wasn't meant to be the focus of my build but one more way to make use of the entry requirements, I'd like to get your perspective on which other entries can boost their Knowledge: Religion checks as much as Luxx (and as early in their career). By ECL 12, Luxx already has max ranks, bonuses from INT and Chosen of Evil, a +5 bonus from Lore of the Gods, and a +8 bonus if he chooses to bind Dantalion for the ritual. That's a total of +33 before taking into account any of the bonuses listed under sacrifice rules in BoVD. As we progress, Luxx's rolls will only get better as his ranks and Chosen of Evil bonuses continue to increase. Do any other entries have that same capacity?

Amphetryon: On Use of the Secret Ingredient, you mentioned that Luxx's usage was typical aside from Wish shenanigans (which, again, were meant as an aside when discussing qualification requirements). I don't want to sound long-winded and redundant by repeating what you've already reviewed in my "Use of the Secret Ingredient" section, so can you please provide additional explanation of how I failed to make atypical usage of the SI via unique abilities and synergies like Abominable Form, Beloved of Demons, Tenebrous' Rebuke, et al?

WhamBamSam: In your UoSI score for Luxx, you mentioned that his debuffing doesn't have oomph and that Pallor of Death was more of the same. You also mentioned that you would have liked to see more devotion to optimizing Intimidate. I made mention of Focalor's Aura of Sadness and Abominable Form, which alone provide a -4 penalty to opponents' saves for debuffing and laying on the intimidation/fear more easily. In addition, my use of Pallor of Death and Touch of Fear in conjunction with maxed Intimidate and Abominable Form provide options for getting foes to a cowering state in 1 round which lasts for a full minute. Fearsome armor was also a suggested item, enabling move-action intimidation. On a build with so much fear going already, the only other option I didn't snag was the old Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered, as I lacked a feat slot and skills. Since Luxx already had a reliable and original way to make foes cower for longer than the feat provided, and since Abominable Form works against more foes than Never Outnumbered, I felt their inclusion would be superfluous. Can you please revisit your score or provide additional explanation?

[Venger]

Much appreciated! It makes compiling so much easier. I probably should get on that, stuff must be piling up.

On a separate gnote, what do you guys think is our gnext SI? You all gnow what my vote is.

I have gno idea what you're talking about.

[WhamBamSam]

WhamBamSam: In your UoSI score for Luxx, you mentioned that his debuffing doesn't have oomph and that Pallor of Death was more of the same. You also mentioned that you would have liked to see more devotion to optimizing Intimidate. I made mention of Focalor's Aura of Sadness and Abominable Form, which alone provide a -4 penalty to opponents' saves for debuffing and laying on the intimidation/fear more easily. In addition, my use of Pallor of Death and Touch of Fear in conjunction with maxed Intimidate and Abominable Form provide options for getting foes to a cowering state in 1 round which lasts for a full minute. Fearsome armor was also a suggested item, enabling move-action intimidation. On a build with so much fear going already, the only other option I didn't snag was the old Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered, as I lacked a feat slot and skills. Since Luxx already had a reliable and original way to make foes cower for longer than the feat provided, and since Abominable Form works against more foes than Never Outnumbered, I felt their inclusion would be superfluous. Can you please revisit your score or provide additional explanation?Looking over it again, you're right. I sort of skimmed over Abominable Form and didn't give enough credit to Focalor. My judging of Luxx was quite possibly a bit more scatterbrained than some of the others, and that's never a good thing with Binders. I'd have liked to see Death Devotion, especially given your melee focus, as I wasn't really feeling the Chaos Devotion/Thrall to Demon thing, but your debuffing is strong enough that you should get (+0.5) as opposed to (+0.25) for Pallor of Death and Death Touch. This doesn't change the power score though, I think I got that one right. Add +0.5 to Luxx's score. My judging post has been edited to reflect this as well.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sentrosi says:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-esYRzHXhYoQ/UL4mx5Nc5xI/AAAAAAAAFL8/aEQrttLzBNQ/s1600/Janet_Chicken.jpg

Judges, competitors, fans of the were-chicken alike:

This chicken is not worried about the so-called judging that refuses to rate the majesty of our awesomeness. Only cowards consider chickens something to be dismissed. Embrace the darkside of being an avian, particularly a chicken. As I said, no one suspects the chicken.

Yo, this was a half-joke build, but I totally intend to expand upon it and have it show up in a campaign. I hope the DMs out there steal it for their campaigns as well. I have no hard feelings or disputes for the penalties or refusal to judge. I did, after all, break the rules.

I will say, however: since when does Orcus or his thralls follow the rules? :smallwink:
As an aside, the next ingredient has been picked, and not only is it 3.5, but it's not abominably terrible!

[Korahir]

As an aside, the next ingredient has been picked, and not only is it 3.5, but it's not abominably terrible!

Not abominably terrible? That sounds like: trust me, it's bad, but in a good way :smallconfused:

[The Viscount]

Is such a thing even possible? A non-terrible SI? Yes I know Geomancer was serviceable.

On a side note, could the chairman please spoiler that chicken image? Its width is messing with the page. No disrespect to the chicken, of course.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Is such a thing even possible? A non-terrible SI? Yes I know Geomancer was serviceable.

On a side note, could the chairman please spoiler that chicken image? Its width is messing with the page. No disrespect to the chicken, of course.

Huh. Sorry - my screen is pretty wide, and I didn't notice. Consider it fixed.

[Vaz]

Hmm... Abominable, hey? Something to do with the snow, perhaps?

Primeval, perhaps?

[Piggy Knowles]

Just under two hours to go... Any other last minute guesses? I'm going to agree with Vaz and guess something snow themed - perhaps it's finally time for Winterhaunt of Iborighu.

Oh yeah, HM... Gah, torn between Cara Skerritt and Frog Prince. I guess I'll give the nod to the Prince for managing to work in Mortal Hunter.

[Deadline]

I forgot my honorable mention. Sentrosi the death chicken gets my vote for being utterly fun and ridiculous.

[Vaz]

Good shout on the HM. The Good Doctor Delamorte gets it from me.

It was between him, Babalon, and Mr Pleasant Baelfire-Smythe, but the use of Blighter and getting 9ths without Ur-Priest? Ooh baby.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just waiting for a final weigh-in from Amph about his three disputes, then the reveal.

[Thurbane]

My honorable mention goes to the Frog Prince. Neat concept and a somewhat underused race.

It was close between him and Bill E Kidd (Ibixians are awesome).

[Amphetryon]

I have looked again at the disputes; I'm not inclined to change any of the scores further than I already have.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I have looked again at the disputes; I'm not inclined to change any of the scores further than I already have.

Alright then, here we go! The moment that you've been waiting for!

Final Tally After Three Judges

{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Babalon, by Piggy Knowles|Gold|48.25|4.020833333
Derek "Baelfire" Bragg, by Deadline|Silver|46.25|3.854166667
Dobluth, by Korahir|Bronze|44.25|3.6875
Doctor Dellamorte, by Deadline|Fourth|44|3.666666667
Luxx, by OMG PONIES|Fourth|44|3.666666667
Ari, by The Viscount|Sixth|43.25|3.604166667
Ankou, by sabelo2000|Seventh|42.5|3.541666667
Ophelia, by sabelo2000|Eighth|42.25|3.520833333
Cara Skerritt, by Vaz|Ninth|42|3.5
Adrienne Fzembrel, by Keynub|Tenth|41.75|3.479166667
The Decaying Tears, by Kazyan|Eleventh|38.5|3.208333333
Bill E. Kidd, by Macabaret|Eleventh|38.5|3.208333333
The Frog Prince (Siegfried), by Venger|Thirteenth|34.25|2.854166667
Thrall of Porkus, by Segev|Fourteenth|31.25|2.604166667
Ruk Rak, by Kreuz|Fifteenth|26.25|2.1875
Henry Oakenshield, by relytdan|Sixteenth|23.25|1.9375
Captain Tardis, by relytdan|Seventeenth|19.75|1.645833333[/table]

{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Sentrosi, by mattie_p|The Roiling Chaos of Limbo|8*|2*[/table]*Scored by a single judge

Looks like another victory for the Master of EquinesSwine! Congratulations to Deadline, Korahir, and all of our other contestants. New competition will be posted momentarily.

EDIT: And the new competition is up! And considering how All Hallow's Eve is this month, let's give you guys something special (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16175255#post16175255), shall we?

[Venger]

well done everyone! and thanks for the hm!

kicking myself for not qualifying for mortal hunter

kuulv, it seems you've mixed up your farm animals :smallsmile:

[The Viscount]

Well done, everyone! A lot of interesting ideas flying around this round. I was hoping to get an HM for guts with this one, but I willingly bow out to Venger and Segev. Mortal Hunter was a great twist, and Thrall of Porkus had me laughing the whole time. Props to Deadline for the most entertaining disputes. Onwards to the next, chaps!

[mattie_p]

So, truly, I have no hard feelings for the Amphetryon and WhamBamSam for declining to score my build. I was going more for the lulz than anything - the concept didn't quite fit Thrall of Orcus, but I didn't see any other classes that would even vaguely fit it coming up anytime soon.

I am kicking myself for my few misteps (not Chicken Infested, for that, I have absolutely zero regrets) in the build. Perhaps I should have put an adaptation section in which I described taking that feat flaw, but whatever. I honestly couldn't recall seeing a build that blatantly violated the rules, and I was kind of interested in seeing what would happen. Now I (and everyone else, I guess) know.

Cheers, and happy optimizing!

[Korahir]

Gratulations to everyone. I'm surprised i snatched bronze. I didn't like my doubledip but couldn't find a way around. Also i thought there would be hordes of lesser drow when Piggy mentioned them earlier in the thread.

[Kazyan]

I thought Tenebrous Apostate was my Best. Idea. Ever. Turns out it's, like, my second score to go below the middle in the rankings. *slams head against a wall* Oh, and once again, I make a build that doesn't actually work. It's like I'll never actually be able to do this contest right.

Also, I should have replaced one of the copies of Open Minded with Trivial Knowledge. I didn't know what the feat did until after the judges were already looking it over. So, yeah.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hurrah! This was a surprisingly fun round. Well done, Deadline and Korahir! Baelfire in particular had me worried there.

Fun fact: my original draft of Babs was a Requiem DFI bard 5/HH 5/Thrall of Orcus 10. Glad I didn't go that route, as Baelfire would have blown me out of the water then!

Huge thanks once again to dysprosium, Amphetryon and WhamBamSam. I almost forgot what it was like to have three judges.

[Deadline]

I thought Tenebrous Apostate was my Best. Idea. Ever. Turns out it's, like, my second score to go below the middle in the rankings. *slams head against a wall* Oh, and once again, I make a build that doesn't actually work. It's like I'll never actually be able to do this contest right.

If it's any consolation, one of the ideas I was really trying to make work was a paladin of slaughter who was dedicated to Orcus/Tenebrous as a sort of dualistic quasi-diety. I wanted to shoot for something like Paladin 5/Thrall 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5. I don't understand the binder rules well enough though, and couldn't make it interesting enough to be worth entering. Same with just the straight Hexblade 10/SI and Paladin 10/SI entries I considered.

In fact, I stumbled through a ton of ideas before I landed at Doctor Dellamorte. Blighter and Thrall of Orcus were surprisingly compatible. I had some concern about doing the 7/7 split, and worried that it would be considered a Blighter build with Thrall of Orcus in it, but the idea flowed really well and the story was good, so I just went with it.

Baelfire was one of those goofy ideas that I would have normally thrown away. I was just reading the class and the prerequisites, and looked up a picture of Orcus. My first thought? "It's like some heavy metal fan tried to insert an album cover into this book as a Prestige Class." Seriously, look up any picture of Orcus and tell me that you couldn't use it as an album cover without modification. At any rate, a friend encouraged me to enter it anyway, and to my surprise, it did really well (despite actually having not much to do with the SI!). I really enjoyed the setting, story, and 2/3 of the gameplay of the game Brutal Legend, so it was a natural fit. And doing the disputes as the Guardian of Metal was too perfect. In fact, I didn't really have much to dispute the second time, I just wanted to another Guardian of Metal style post. :smallbiggrin:

If any of you haven't played Brutal Legend, I highly recommend it!

[OMG PONIES]

Congrats to everyone! I think I seriously overestimated how cool everyone would think Luxx's Naberius/Chosen of Evil combo was, but it seemed like the perfect way to make all those atrocious, required Vile feats work for us. Oh well, I had fun writing his backstory and cobbling him together. Next round, I may return to the judge's seat since it was quite nice to see multiple judges weigh in.

[Vaz]

Massive congrats to the winners.

I decided not to make any additional disputes because at the end of the day, it's a bit of fun. However, in regards to the Stench not setting my DC to Cha, the Monster Manual states that nonability scores are based off Cha (Undead dragons having Cha based breath weapons, for example).

[Keynub]

Well, I didn't do as poorly as I thought I would. Congratulations, Piggy!


I think I seriously overestimated how cool everyone would think Luxx's Naberius/Chosen of Evil combo was, but it seemed like the perfect way to make all those atrocious, required Vile feats work for us.

You and me both. A similar reasoning brought me to Strongheart Vest.

So, since one judge out of three had an issue with it : is Supernatural Transformation legal for the Death Touch?

[Venger]

Massive congrats to the winners.

I decided not to make any additional disputes because at the end of the day, it's a bit of fun. However, in regards to the Stench not setting my DC to Cha, the Monster Manual states that nonability scores are based off Cha (Undead dragons having Cha based breath weapons, for example).

Thanks for not disputing, we were all eager for the new SI.

checking p312 of the monster manual on nonabilities, I see no such verbiage. Does the rule you're referring to come from a different part of the book?

the only substitution that involves con/cha is concentration checks (undead use their cha mod) but this doesn't apply to other things, such as fort saves or constitution checks (which you're immune to for all practical purposes anyway)

[dysprosium]

Congrats to the winners!

One thing I'm definitely taking away from this: I will not complain about a lack of judging again. Remind me of that when I whine about a one judge and done competition.

Since I have now been on the other side of the table, I can appreciate the commitment that being a judge takes. There is the time commitment and the want to be accurate, thorough and fair.

It was most definitely a positive experience and would like to repeat in the future.

[Deadline]

Since I have now been on the other side of the table, I can appreciate the commitment that being a judge takes. There is the time commitment and the want to be accurate, thorough and fair.

It was most definitely a positive experience and would like to repeat in the future.

You (and the others) did a fine job! It's surprising just how eye-opening sitting in the judge's seat is. I look forward to you doing it again in the future.

Also, I'm glad you liked Baelfire and the format for my disputes. :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

Thanks for not disputing, we were all eager for the new SI.

checking p312 of the monster manual on nonabilities, I see no such verbiage. Does the rule you're referring to come from a different part of the book?

the only substitution that involves con/cha is concentration checks (undead use their cha mod) but this doesn't apply to other things, such as fort saves or constitution checks (which you're immune to for all practical purposes anyway)

Page 300, setting ability score DC's; last paragraph bit. AFB atm, but fairly sure that is it regarding nonability scores.

Incidentally cara skerritt was a life sucking half pint ex girlfriend, so when i was stuck for a name, it seemed oddly appropriate.

[Venger]

Page 300, setting ability score DC's; last paragraph bit. AFB atm, but fairly sure that is it regarding nonability scores.


Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead
creatures have no Constitution score, so any poison attacks they
have would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

thanks for that. I'd heard it mentioned, but was unsuccessful in locating it. good to know.

[dysprosium]

You (and the others) did a fine job! It's surprising just how eye-opening sitting in the judge's seat is. I look forward to you doing it again in the future.

Also, I'm glad you liked Baelfire and the format for my disputes. :smallbiggrin:

Your disputes were entertaining and definitely a format I'm going to have to steal borrow for any disputes I have in the future.

[The Viscount]

Page 300, setting ability score DC's; last paragraph bit. AFB atm, but fairly sure that is it regarding nonability scores.

How interesting. I've seen some undead like the Bhut and Dread Ram with abilities that are still Con based, but with closer examination all the ones with this in common seem to be from 3.0. I suppose it's something they changed in the update. Thanks, Vaz.

[Segev]

Miss Piggy was fun to concept. I'm still kicking myself for entering her into the SI right AS she got +4 BAB, rather than one level later; seriously, the build is hurt not the slightest by shifting Dread Witch down to that level's selection and Thrall of Orcus up again. Oh well.

Nice job to the other builds; they're hard acts to follow. Not that the Thrall of Porkus will admit she has to follow anybody!

[sabelo2000]

Open to suggestions from the Playground regarding Ankou: I had a decent Fear build going on, but could never find myself a decent finishing attack. It was mentioned in the judging that all he really had for a capstone was his upper-level summons... any suggestions for how to finish off a will-deprived, cowering opponent?