Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX [Archive]

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Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-09, 06:19 PM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLIX. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, September 23rd, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, October 7th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Book of Vile Darkness's Thrall of Orcus!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez, optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-09, 06:21 PM

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Haluesen

2013-09-09, 06:29 PM

Hmm this thing is very strange and fascinating. :smallamused: I think I really want to try this. If there are too many competitors I may need to back out to judge, though I still do not feel confident enough really to do so effectively. I guess we shall see. Make this a tentative in.

I would like everyone to be able to make their own but there should probably be some guidelines of some sort there. I don't know, I think using almost anything available would be a little scary... :smalleek:

Amphetryon

2013-09-09, 06:29 PM

I'll be competing in this one.

Amechra

2013-09-09, 06:35 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-09, 06:41 PM

Sweetness! I actually have an entry for this one (lie still my beating heart!)

I think we should all come up with our own Vampire and Ghost (one build for each); however, if we go this route, I vote that you should give us a secret ingredient we have to follow.

I'm so excited!

Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).

Feilith

2013-09-09, 06:56 PM

Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).

No? A Vampire's LA is +5 unless my MM is off, so you'd have a 4th level (whatever) vampire or ghost as your minion (apparently ghost is +5 also) as it must be one level lower than your class level

Edit: Disregard that, WotC caught me in a double typing trap

Why does my MM do this to me? Under "Sample Elite Vampire" on the page before it says LA: +5, then on the next page under "Creating a Vampire" it says +8, so that's some appealing typing.... Anyone else see that too?

WotC you confuse me to no end...

Amechra

2013-09-09, 06:58 PM

Vampire's LA is +8, my friend.

Haluesen

2013-09-09, 06:58 PM

Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).

Hmm so be it then. I guess that makes a different sort of challenge for everyone here then. :smallamused:

According to my MM the LA is also +8. What's going on here? :smallconfused:

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-09, 07:03 PM

Don't vampire spawns get lower LA than full Vampires? Perhaps that is the cause of the confusion.

Feilith

2013-09-09, 07:04 PM

Nope, I looked at their sample monster from the page before and saw +5, However i neglected to turn the page to see how to "Make" my vampire.

Anyone able to confirm this or am i just going loopy?

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-09, 07:06 PM

Don't vampire spawns get lower LA than full Vampires? Perhaps that is the cause of the confusion.

Vampire spawns are LA --, and a totally separate and distinct creature rather than a template.

sabelo2000

2013-09-09, 07:42 PM

Vaz

2013-09-09, 07:47 PM

Heh, I brought out the BoVD to see if any of it was useable in the last competition. I found Vampires here, and had a quick boojie through it, despite the alignment difference.

I shall see what I can come up with, if I can't, well... I shall judge. It's about time.

In regards to the Pallor of Death ability, what exactly is a Humanoid Undead creature? Is it any Humanoid with any template of choice (and if so, which/how many/can we stack?) applied to make it undead, or is it just a Humanoid that looks undead?

What happens if we're not Humanoid/Undead ourselves; if we cast Alter Self, we're stuck as out own type.

Is the Bonus Feat granted *ANY* feat, provided we qualify (or do we? It's bonus after all)?

thethird

2013-09-09, 07:57 PM

Is death touch essentially at will? :smallconfused:

Vaz

2013-09-09, 08:00 PM

Is death touch essentially at will? :smallconfused:

It's a spell-like ability with no listed maximum number of uses. I guess so. As to why it's a SLA, rather than Su, I have no idea. SR: Yes is a bugger.

yougi

2013-09-09, 08:24 PM

Wow, it does have a bad Reflex save!

Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).

That is one bad class feature...

But overall, yeah, I'll probably submit one!

Feilith

2013-09-09, 08:55 PM

Character concept coming into focus.... feats all lined out... I'm feeling good about where this is going

sabelo2000

2013-09-09, 09:41 PM

I'm glad one of us is, Feilith; for the moment, I'm stuck. It may sound really awesome, but on closer examination this SI doesn't really give you much to work with.

Venger

2013-09-09, 10:23 PM

I cast my vote for using a "stock" vampire/ghost for all entries.

I reason that this falls under much the same category as the Leadership ban here: "We're making a single dish, not a meal." While the companion vampire/ghost is certainly more a case of "dish + gravy" it presents a more open field than your standard companion critter, essentially another Cohort character.

I am strongly in favor of assuming all entries have the same vamp/ghost. otherwise we're all stuck building multiple characters, essentially the reason that leadership and its analogs are banned. I'm strongly against customizing our minions, it defeats the purpose of iron chef.

I'm in to cook a thrall of orcus.

sabelo2000

2013-09-09, 11:07 PM

In re-reading the summon undead ability, it functions as a summon spell, not as a permanent calling. So even the 9th-level vampire/ghost only exists for, at most, 1 minute per day. I can see this being used to support both viewpoints regarding this ability; for me, I choose to regard it as yet another reason why a stock vampire and ghost should be provided. I don't want to expend time building a fully-realized cohort that will only be around for 1 minute.

WhamBamSam

2013-09-09, 11:11 PM

Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).Are you sure? My understanding was that character level=hit dice, and that it's different from effective character level.

Also, it appears that Thralls of Orcus don't need to meet prereqs for their feats by RAW. This gives rise to two questions.

1. How is Thrall of Orcus 1 not a hugely popular cheese dip?
2. Are we really going by that interpretation?

I've a few ideas kicking around, but I may just sit back and judge this one. I'm due, so we'll see if anything strikes me that I can't resist submitting.

yougi

2013-09-09, 11:16 PM

How is Thrall of Orcus 1 not a hugely popular cheese dip?

Because it requires 3 terrible feats?

Kreuz

2013-09-09, 11:40 PM

gonna participate so hard on this one...

tadkins

2013-09-09, 11:58 PM

I'm not too good at optimizing so I won't be participating, but Thrall of Orcus was one PrC that caught my eye a while back when reading through BoVD. I will be keeping a close eye on this one and will be looking forward to seeing what you guys cook up.

The Viscount

2013-09-10, 01:12 AM

I'm on Thrall of Orcus like stink on rice. Great way to get back into things.

I'm in favor of the stock vampire/ghost. It levels the playing field more.

Venger

2013-09-10, 01:13 AM

So, questions thus far:

1) do you need to qualify for your bonus feats?
2) what kind of action is it to activate your stench?
3) do we treat obese/gaunt as su even though feats (aside from exalted) are always ex?
4) do we need to qualify for obese/gaunt?
5) how does pallor of death work? do you use alter self as though you were undead? what does "humanoid undead" mean?
6) how does death touch interact with iteratives?
7) what kind of action is it, if any?

sabelo2000

2013-09-10, 01:14 AM

Also, it appears that Thralls of Orcus don't need to meet prereqs for their feats by RAW.

I'm not sure where you're getting that, WhamBamSam. If you mean the bonus feats awarded every 3 levels, nothing in the RAW allows you to take a feat that you don't qualify for; it just says that you get to take another feat.

I'll admit the paragraph in Thrall of Orcus does not directly SAY you must qualify for any feats you take; however, contrast this with other bonus feats, such as the Monk's Stunning Fist:

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Emphasis mine.

By my interpretation, you can't skip the prereqs for a feat/class/etc. unless specifically allowed by the rules. Similarly, the lack of specific text stating that you MUST meet requirements, doesn't mean you can skip them.

Agree/disagree, Playground?
Edit: ninja'd by Venger.

Thurbane

2013-09-10, 03:55 AM

BoVD ingredient? Nice :)

A_S

2013-09-10, 03:58 AM

Are you sure? My understanding was that character level=hit dice, and that it's different from effective character level.
I believe this is correct. ECL includes LA, but character level doesn't.

That said, I just looked pretty hard to find a primary source for this, and I couldn't. The closest thing I found was an SRD quote (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm):

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level.
...that indicates that ECL and character level are not the same thing.

However, Urpriest's monster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) does explicitly say that:

your Character Level is your total Hit Dice, Racial Hit Dice plus Class Levels.
...and given how astonishingly well-researched the rest of it is, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here. Urpriest, you happen to be reading this thread? Got a source handy?

-----

If this is right, it would obviously make the vampire/ghost summon a lot better.

The Dodr Dragon

2013-09-10, 05:14 AM

I've been watching the past few Iron Chef competitions, and I think I'm ready to join this time.
Thrall to orcus... I always did like making undead characters.

Too bad the stench is con based so maybe being undead isn't going to work out so great.

I already have a few obvious ideas of classes and prestige classes to take
alongside this one, so try not to be too obvious!:smallwink:

Amphetryon

2013-09-10, 07:18 AM

I cast my vote for using a "stock" vampire/ghost for all entries.

I reason that this falls under much the same category as the Leadership ban here: "We're making a single dish, not a meal." While the companion vampire/ghost is certainly more a case of "dish + gravy" it presents a more open field than your standard companion critter, essentially another Cohort character.

Seconding this, and speculating that you'd have to qualify for bonus Feats you choose, except for Obese/Gaunt.

JanusJones

2013-09-10, 08:30 AM

Awesome. In. It's fun just building!

Segev

2013-09-10, 08:31 AM

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-10, 08:34 AM

Bonus feat that ignore pre-requisites usually explicitly tell that you ignore said pre-requisites, so I think it is reasonable to assume that unless otherwise stated you follow the normal feat rules, ie. you must meet the pre-requisites.

Having said that, the main draw of those bonus feat is that they don't seem to be restricted to a specific list so we should see a lot of different builds that use them (The spellcasting is terrible, I don't think even the Fast-casting classes like Ur-Priest, could use it and not feel like a waste).

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-10, 08:39 AM

Seconding this, and speculating that you'd have to qualify for bonus Feats you choose, except for Obese/Gaunt.

This is my speculation as well. Any chance for an official ruling, Master Chairman?

dysprosium

2013-09-10, 08:48 AM

Interesting ingredient choice.

I will be participating one way or the other.

WhamBamSam

2013-09-10, 08:50 AM

Deadline

2013-09-10, 09:21 AM

Trouble is, it doesn't say you don't have to qualify for them.

For purposes of this contest, what interpretation of the "meet prereqs for PrCs" rules do we use?

If you lose a prerequisite for a PrC, you lose all class features except for HD, BAB, Skills, and Saves

or

You only need to meet the prerequisites the first time you take a level in the class; after that, you don't need to meet them anymore?

If the former, do we assume implicit exception for such classes as Ur Priest which give things that cost you a "may not have" type prereq?

For past competitions, this seems to have been left to the judges to decide what they felt was appropriate. Some went with the strict "only classes from Complete Warrior have this rule", others went with the "all classes have this rule, and PrC's can disqualify themselves".

Also, tentatively in to cook. This PrC is wide open for variety, and I've got a couple of ideas I want to look at.

Jurai

2013-09-10, 09:45 AM

Amechra

2013-09-10, 09:46 AM

There are some noncasters who can get in explicitly.

Jurai

2013-09-10, 09:51 AM

I have an idea, and it's out there.

EDIT: I'd like to make my own undead buddy.

Segev

2013-09-10, 09:57 AM

There are some noncasters who can get in explicitly.

Really? Which? How do they bypass that requirement?

Amechra

2013-09-10, 09:58 AM

Look around a bit; I'm sure you'll find something (I can't say it outright, because that would be discussing potential entries, which could penalize some people's Originality.)

Jurai

2013-09-10, 09:58 AM

No Spoilers.

Although I'm interested myself.

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-10, 10:20 AM

In. I did all right last time. But now here's the question.

The SI's first class feature, Spellcasting/Bonus Feats says that if a member of the SI isn't a spellcaster, he must take the Bonus Feat. But the Prereqs require spellcasting of one Necromancy Spell. I'm assuming it's copy-paste and not edited, but is there anywhere in 3.5 that says SLA's qualify for casting spells?

Complete Arcane explicitly states that you can meet specific spell requirements with the equivalent SLA. Page 71. Not sure if the rule appears anywhere else, though.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-10, 12:27 PM

WOOHOO! After 45 comps (I think) we finally have another BOVD SI :smallbiggrin:.

I'm a little sad that it's Thrall of Orcus though. Most of its abilities are 1/day SLA's or Su abilities. I'm not a fan of those kinds of PRC's for SI's. I was expecting Thrall of Graz'zt or Warrior of Darkness (since those have been asked for before).

I think my favorite part of this comp will be the fluff actually. The demon lords have always been one of my favorite parts of DnD lore.

Anyways, what was your reason for choosing this one Kuulv?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's Thrall of Orcus, not Thrall to Orcus.

Venger

2013-09-10, 12:32 PM

I could have sworn I'd read somewhere that the default for bonus feats was not having to meet prereqs unless it's specified that you do, as with Fighter feats, but eh. It'll mean that we're slightly less awash in cheese if it's assumed that we do need to qualify.

It might be worth taking the whole list of questions that Venger compiled over to the Simple Q&A by RAW thread.

I'll try that now to see if we can get some kind of RAW evidence about them. I'll post any answers folks give here later. If there's no actual RAW answer, then it'll fall to the chairman to make a ruling as per usual.

EDIT: list submitted. now we wait. I'll edit in answers as they're posted

Q 298 do you need to qualify for your bonus feats?

ANSWER: Yes.

Q 299 what kind of action is it to activate your stench?
Q 300do we treat obese/gaunt as su even though feats (aside from exalted) are always ex?
Q 301do we need to qualify for obese/gaunt?
Q 302 how does pallor of death work? do you use alter self as though you were undead? what does "humanoid undead" mean?
Q 303 how does death touch interact with iteratives?
Q 304what kind of action is it, if any?

Feilith

2013-09-10, 01:15 PM

I'll try that now to see if we can get some kind of RAW evidence about them. I'll post any answers folks give here later. If there's no actual RAW answer, then it'll fall to the chairman to make a ruling as per usual.

EDIT: list submitted. now we wait. I'll edit in answers as they're posted

Q 298 do you need to qualify for your bonus feats?

ANSWER: Yes.

Q 299 what kind of action is it to activate your stench?
Q 300do we treat obese/gaunt as su even though feats (aside from exalted) are always ex?
Q 301do we need to qualify for obese/gaunt?
Q 302 how does pallor of death work? do you use alter self as though you were undead? what does "humanoid undead" mean?
Q 303 how does death touch interact with iteratives?
Q 304what kind of action is it, if any?

299- Free action, they state that you have control over it but it can be permeating
300- Ex- its a change to your physique
301- Nope, Free feats
303- Its the equivalent of a spell w/ standard action cast time, no iterative attacks
304- Hmmm, thought it said standard

These are how I looked at them initially

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-10, 01:21 PM

Seconding this, and speculating that you'd have to qualify for bonus Feats you choose, except for Obese/Gaunt.

This is my speculation as well. Any chance for an official ruling, Master Chairman?

This would be my reading, and looks like it's been backed up as well.

I'll try that now to see if we can get some kind of RAW evidence about them. I'll post any answers folks give here later. If there's no actual RAW answer, then it'll fall to the chairman to make a ruling as per usual.

EDIT: list submitted. now we wait. I'll edit in answers as they're posted

Q 298 do you need to qualify for your bonus feats?

ANSWER: Yes.

Q 299 what kind of action is it to activate your stench?
Q 300do we treat obese/gaunt as su even though feats (aside from exalted) are always ex?
Q 301do we need to qualify for obese/gaunt?
Q 302 how does pallor of death work? do you use alter self as though you were undead? what does "humanoid undead" mean?
Q 303 how does death touch interact with iteratives?
Q 304what kind of action is it, if any?

My opinions:
Q 299: Standard. From the SRD: Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Q 300: Apparently yes. So it's a magical effect that either inflates or dessicates your body.

Q 301: Answered, and Yes.

Q 302: I'd read it as you can assume the form of an Undead that was previously a Humanoid, subject to the HD limitations of alter self.

Q 303: SLAs take 1 standard action to activate, unless otherwise specified.

Q 304: It's a standard action, not an attack, so it's incompatible with a Full Attack option.

Just my two coppers.

Venger

2013-09-10, 01:29 PM

Q 301: Answered, and Yes.

I don't understand this. At the beginning of your post, you said we did not need to qualify for obese/gaunt. Here you're saying we do. Which do you mean?

Q 302: I'd read it as you can assume the form of an Undead that was previously a Humanoid, subject to the HD limitations of alter self.

So anything that was fluffed to be a humanoid once, but nothing with a template (skeleton, zombie, etc) since alter self says you can't turn into stuff with templates. Is that correct?

the others all made sense, I'd just like a little more clarification on these two, please.

Vaz

2013-09-10, 01:36 PM

So you could (technically) take the form of a Vampire Human/Dwarf etc through the Alter Self thing?

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-10, 01:46 PM

So you could (technically) take the form of a Vampire Human/Dwarf etc through the Alter Self thing?

No, because you can't assume a templated form with Alter Self/Polymorph.

A vampire spawn, however, would be fair game. (Dead Mists used altering into vampire spawn in Talon of Tianat's IC, and I actually considered going Thrall of Orcus before deciding on using Thrall of Juiblex and necropolitan instead.)

Haluesen

2013-09-10, 01:54 PM

Wow a lot of debate on this one, now I am sure this is going to be a great competition. :smallbiggrin:

And I now change my mind to thinking that Mr Chairman should make the ghost/vampire that all must use, but I do inquire that he make them very interesting and unique. :smallsmile:

Just drumming up ideas for now, I'm mostly only in this because it is BoVD and I've really wanted a reason to try to test my evil talents. :smallamused:

Hmm someone remind me again which Monster Manuals were 3.5 and which were 3.0 and thus not accepted?

Vaz

2013-09-10, 01:57 PM

Though that was too good to be true.

GreenSerpent

2013-09-10, 02:06 PM

I... kinda wanna do this, but I'm thinking it's gonna be hard to come up with an interesting entry.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-10, 02:24 PM

OMG PONIES

2013-09-10, 02:28 PM

I'll throw my hat in as being in favor of using a stock ghost/vampire for everyone. Because please, someone think of the judges!

Twice as many builds to judge...*shudder*

I think everything in 3.0 is kosher as long as it hasn't been updated (I am not 100% sure though), but obviously that may incur in elegance penalties at the judges' discretion.

From the FAQ:

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

So the judges may not deduct in Elegance for using 3.0 resources, unless there was a 3.5 update that the chef has ignored.

Haluesen

2013-09-10, 02:34 PM

MM II and Fiend Folio are the only monster books that aren't really 3.5 AFAIAA, and the FF is 3.25 if you will.

I think everything in 3.0 is kosher as long as it hasn't been updated (I am not 100% sure though), but obviously that may incur in elegance penalties at the judges' discretion.

I'll throw my hat in as being in favor of using a stock ghost/vampire for everyone. Because please, someone think of the judges!

Twice as many builds to judge...*shudder*

From the FAQ:

So the judges may not deduct in Elegance for using 3.0 resources, unless there was a 3.5 that has been ignored.

Hmm alright thank you both of you. :smallsmile: I prefer using the fully 3.5 material when I can, even when something from 3.0 is allowed. But this helps with ideas a bit, so again thank you. :smallbiggrin:

The Viscount

2013-09-10, 02:44 PM

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-10, 02:50 PM

I'll throw my hat in as being in favor of using a stock ghost/vampire for everyone. Because please, someone think of the judges!

Twice as many builds to judge...*shudder*

From the FAQ:

So the judges may not deduct in Elegance for using 3.0 resources, unless there was a 3.5 update that the chef has ignored.

That is what I get for not reading the FAQ :smallredface:

Haluesen

2013-09-10, 03:00 PM

Do note that there is a free update packet for MM2 here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) which made all the necessary changes to statblocks. The one for FF is minscule and only changes DR and creation costs for constructs.

Ah thank you for this Viscount! :smallsmile: This will be very helpful with the IC and in my D&D games. I am very much appreciative.

Kazyan

2013-09-10, 03:21 PM

The issue I'm having with this class is that there's soooo much content in it. I don't know what to do with it all! :smalleek:

Segev

2013-09-10, 03:21 PM

Really? I kind-of have the opposite problem. It feels very...empty.

WhamBamSam

2013-09-10, 05:10 PM

I'll throw my hat in as being in favor of using a stock ghost/vampire for everyone. Because please, someone think of the judges!

Twice as many builds to judge...*shudder*I see where you're coming from, and I'd probably benefit as I think I'm judging myself this round even though I've got a half dozen stubs floating around in my head, but there are potential problems which would arise from that ruling, without even getting into "Leadership in disguise" territory. I can't say what they are because it's speculation, but I'm guessing at least a few chefs will try them.

I say let people go nuts with it, even at my expense.

yougi

2013-09-10, 06:57 PM

I'll n'th that the vampire/ghost be made for us.

And please, make them monks. Or ninjas. Or better yet, commoners!

Gemini476

2013-09-11, 03:05 AM

I'll n'th that the vampire/ghost be made for us.

And please, make them monks. Or ninjas. Or better yet, commoners!

Monk 5/Ninja 5 with Ascetic Stalker and Vow of Poverty. With staggered levels to avoid multi class penalties. Now that's powergaming.

EDIT: Wait, no. VoP is an Exalted feat. So Weapon Focus(Natural Attack) and Toughness*2, if we follow standard WotC monster guidelines. Unless they're Human, in which case they get another Toughness. Or maybe some extra Stun Punch feats.
... I'll leave making (sub-)optimal undead to those who know more.

WhamBamSam

2013-09-11, 07:58 AM

VoP (if they could take it) would probably not be that bad for the summons, as there's no reason to suspect they come with gear. Also, if you can get it to a decent level, a vampire monk isn't so bad since it helps with the MAD problem, and a number of the general weaknesses of mundane characters.

I personally say that the ghost and vampire shouldn't be gone into in gory detail, but a contestant should be free to provide their own stubs/general concepts. Hell, by RAW you might be able to summon up different classes for different occasions. So I don't need to see two extra build tables, but rather just a general idea of tactics for the ability.

Anyhow, here are my Criteria:

Originality
Start from a baseline score of 3.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on whether the classes/race you used were things I expected, and whether anyone else thought to use them. I won't deduct points for using Human. Particularly stinky known cheese may see a deduction here.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty to a build doing something interesting or something we've all seen it before respectively. You can fill a common niche without incurring my wrath, but I'd like to see a new spin on it. Cool factor in your crunch may see a bonus here.

Up to a 0.25 point bonus if I find your fluff to be particularly excellent.

Plagiarism of another build found online will result in a 0 in this category. If you wish to dispute an accusation of plagiarism (ie, if you wish to demonstrate that the build I accuse you of copying was originally yours), PM me directly instead of using the standard dispute process so that I can confirm your identity, but you remain anonymous for other judges. I don't expect to have to invoke this rule, but it's here if necessary.

Power
Start from a baseline score of 3.

Up to 0.75 point of bonus or penalty for versatility. Do you have a variety of options or are you a one trick pony that can easily be shut down?

Up to 1.25 points of bonus or penalty for how well you do the things that you do. For example, if you're a front line fighter, how good are you at hurting things?

Elegance
Start from a baseline score of 4.

Each failure to qualify for a non-secret ingredient thing results in a 0.5 point deduction.

A rule interpretation which is highly questionable or likely not to fly at the average table will result in a penalty of up to 0.25 points depending on severity. I'm pretty cheese tolerant as judges go though.

Up to 0.75 points of bonus or penalty based on the overall flow of the build. A clean, flowing progression will score more points, whereas something that feels awkward may be penalized. As with cheese, I'm not going to try to be especially punitive toward dipping, but some dips are too glaring not to warrant some deduction. If you incur multiclass penalties, change alignment mid-build for crunch reasons, or the like, you can expect to be dinged here.

Up to 0.25 bonus points if the build just screams classy.

UoSI
Start from a baseline score of 1.

I will award bonus points for every class ability or prerequisite that I see used in some way. The more integral the use is to the build, the larger the bonus. These bonuses will never add up to more than +3.75.

If the build really captures the feel of the SI, I'll award an additional 0.25 point bonus.

A build which fails to qualify for the SI or uses no levels of the SI receives a 0 in this category.

Gemini476

2013-09-11, 09:13 AM

I personally say that the ghost and vampire shouldn't be gone into in gory detail, but a contestant should be free to provide their own stubs/general concepts. Hell, by RAW you might be able to summon up different classes for different occasions. So I don't need to see two extra build tables, but rather just a general idea of tactics for the ability.

Huh, you're right. I'm not sure how useful it would be to summon someone with nine class levels when you're level 20, but I'm sure you could cheese it somehow. 'Specially with PrCs.

...Also, I think you can enter the SI at level two. But that would be cheesy as all hell (or Abyss! Hah, bad jokes.). 1 hour/day flight at level four is neat, though.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 09:15 AM

Doesn't Thrall to Orcus have a +4 BAB requirement? ( I don't have my BoVD at hand)

Jurai

2013-09-11, 09:28 AM

Correct, DE.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 09:31 AM

He that is a new one, if you want to shorten my name I prefer Dusk if you don't mind :innocently points at sig:

More on-topic, I really don't know what to do with this class, I have some half-baked ideas on my mind, but nothing that really convinces me, I think I'll just watch this competition.

Jurai

2013-09-11, 09:35 AM

I'm thinking sort of an undead Tactician sort. IE, the Diablo II Necromancer.

Gemini476

2013-09-11, 09:37 AM

Doesn't Thrall to Orcus have a +4 BAB requirement? ( I don't have my BoVD at hand)

Ah, right. It does.
My copy has a newline between "Base Attack Bonus" and "+4", so I missed that. Darn image, screwing up columns...

Amechra

2013-09-11, 09:46 AM

Huh, you're right. I'm not sure how useful it would be to summon someone with nine class levels when you're level 20, but I'm sure you could cheese it somehow. 'Specially with PrCs.

It's 4 levels for the Ghost and 1 for the Vampire; remember, Templates count towards your ECL.

thethird

2013-09-11, 09:51 AM

Argh I'm considering serious cheese and tanking my elegance, but I feel like mentioning the cheese in question would be too spoilerific. :smallannoyed:

Deadline

2013-09-11, 10:00 AM

I've had two ideas shake out of the mix, and both seem interesting and different to me. I'm going to have to work on them a bit to file off the rough edges, but one of them is falling beautifully into place so far.

In case I haven't said it yet, I'm in favor of not having to build the ghost/vampire buddy, or having the chairman give us a pre-built one. Listing general ideas for a build for them could work, but that's still going to be rough on the judges.

The Viscount

2013-09-11, 10:54 AM

Ah thank you for this Viscount! :smallsmile: This will be very helpful with the IC and in my D&D games. I am very much appreciative.
You're very welcome. MM2 has some fun, if crazy stuff in it, and I was very glad to see that they made the effort to update it.

I'm having a similar problem to Kazyan. There's lots of stuff to work with, and quite a few that provoke knee-jerk reactions. This is shaping up to be an interesting round.

Kazyan

2013-09-11, 11:07 AM

I found something fun to do, but crowbarring in the SI's prereqs are a pain. (I think it's safe to say that; gives no real information about my build.)

Vaz

2013-09-11, 11:23 AM

Urgh, Dat BAB.

Ruddy vile it is.

Deadline

2013-09-11, 11:27 AM

Urgh, Dat BAB.

Ruddy vile it is.

Yeah, it's fiddly, isn't it? One dish I'm considering works out ok, but the other ... blerg.

Venger

2013-09-11, 11:37 AM

I'm thinking sort of an undead Tactician sort. IE, the Diablo II Necromancer.

the bab bothers me less than the necro spell. that just kills all kinds of options.

yougi

2013-09-11, 12:06 PM

Yeah, my main problem is that I'm not sure how obvious my ideas are, but at the same time I'd hate myself so much if I didn't go through with them... Hmmm, tough choice.

Gemini476

2013-09-11, 12:13 PM

It's 4 levels for the Ghost and 1 for the Vampire; remember, Templates count towards your ECL.

Although the ability summons things with a character level of (Thrall of Orcus)-1. And as that post on page one showed, Character Level (HD) and Effective Character Level (HD+LA) are considered different things within the rules.

I still think that the chairman should make the beasties, though. I've got enough on my hands as is trying to get this build working without having to make a bunch of minions as well.

sabelo2000

2013-09-11, 01:24 PM

Hmm, I've got two ideas baking right now... I might have to complete both builds before I see which one to submit.

Haluesen

2013-09-11, 01:34 PM

the bab bothers me less than the necro spell. that just kills all kinds of options.

Seconding this. :smallannoyed: All the other prereqs I can work with relatively easily,but it is that spell that makes it all harder to do without small dips, which I hate. Oh well I'm sure something will come together.

Roguenewb

2013-09-11, 01:48 PM

Every month I am consistently impressed with the true terribleness of some of the classes that can be dredged up. Shadow Sun Ninja finally got me to enter because at least it looked fun. I'm gonna try to brew something for this, but I half expect to make half a dozen builds that all stink and just give up.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-11, 01:52 PM

Compiling rules questions on the SI and RAW answers (or Chairman's rulings, if RAW answers cannot be found):

I'm assuming it's copy-paste and not edited, but is there anywhere in 3.5 that says SLA's qualify for casting spells? While SLAs can fill in for a particular spell, they do not qualify one for the Secret Ingredient this round.

A requirement based on a specifi c spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge. For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.

"Able to cast a necromancy spell" fits in neither of these categories : a specific level is not specified and neither is a specific spell. To my knowledge, no such clarification exists for a specific school.

So, in the absence of such an exception, a SLA cannot be used to meet that requirement. This is an implicit answer rather than an explicit one.

I would also agree with Keynub's reading of Complete Arcane on the subject of the Necromancy requirement.

What kind of action is it to activate your stench? Free action.
Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted.
Do you need to qualify for your bonus feats? Yes.

As for the bonus feats, you must qualify for them...
Do we need to qualify for obese/gaunt? Yes and no.

...you get the feat, but you still cannot use/gain the benefits from it unless you qualify.
Do we treat obese/gaunt as su even though feats (aside from exalted) are always ex? Yes.

As such, vile feats are supernatural abilities rather than extraordinary abilities.
What happens if we're not Humanoid/Undead ourselves [when using Pallor of Death]? Waiting for answer. How does pallor of death work? do you use alter self as though you were undead? You alter self into a humanoid form, but do NOT gain the undead type.

After talking with The Man and digging out my 3.0e PHB (and re-discovering just how different alter self used to be), I've come to the conclusion that Pallor of Death is pretty much cosmetic. You do not gain the Undead type (or it's itinerant bonuses).
What does "humanoid undead" mean? See above.
Is death touch essentially at will? Yes.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. How does death touch interact with iteratives? It doesn't. See below.
What kind of action is [death touch], if any? Standard.
Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise...

123456789blaaa

2013-09-11, 02:16 PM

Seconding this. :smallannoyed: All the other prereqs I can work with relatively easily,but it is that spell that makes it all harder to do without small dips, which I hate. Oh well I'm sure something will come together.

I can't get any more specific because of originality concerns but I will say that there's a really really low-investment way to bypass the requirement without any dips (if the Chairman thinks this is too much I will remove this post immediately).

A_S

2013-09-11, 06:29 PM

Re: The level of the summoned minions, Urpriest just got back to me with two more pieces of evidence that "character level" does not include LA (and therefore that your summons can be pretty tough).

1. It was explicitly stated in Savage Species (which is 3.0, but unless somebody can find 3.5 text explicitly contradicting it, rather than just failing to clarify it, it's the best we have to go on):
Character Level: When a creature's description refers to character level, add any class levels it has to the base creature's Hit Dice to determine the character level. This is not the same as effective character level...which also includes a level adjustment.

2. If character level included LA, the rules on skill and feat acquisition would be borked. For example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm):
Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).
Does anybody think that LA is included when calculating your maximum skill rank?

-----

Thanks to Urpriest for pointing these out to me!

123456789blaaa

2013-09-11, 06:37 PM

You know, rereading the past IC comps it occurs to me just how long they've been going on for. Will we be here after decades of building, in our old age still feebly cursing the new torture the Chairman puts out for us? :smalltongue:

Also, repost in case Kuulv missed:

<snip>
Anyways, what was your reason for choosing this one Kuulv?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and it's Thrall of Orcus, not Thrall to Orcus.

A_S

2013-09-11, 06:50 PM

You know, rereading the past IC comps it occurs to me just how long they've been going on for. Will we be here after decades of building, in our old age still feebly cursing the new torture the Chairman puts out for us? :smalltongue:
In the year 2056, near the end of D&D 7e's tenure, having finally used up every single official 3.0 or 3.5 PrC, the 28th chairman will unveil the first 3rd-party IC ingredient, The Book of Erotic Fantasy's Sacred Prostitute. After winning his 43rd first place trophy, Piggy Knowles will declare that the contest has finally jumped the shark, then promptly die of old age/a broken heart.

Haluesen

2013-09-11, 07:24 PM

I can't get any more specific because of originality concerns but I will say that there's a really really low-investment way to bypass the requirement without any dips (if the Chairman thinks this is too much I will remove this post immediately).

Hmm pretty cool. This invigorates me with hope that this is not an impossible task. :smallsmile:

In the year 2056, near the end of D&D 7e's tenure, having finally used up every single official 3.0 or 3.5 PrC, the 28th chairman will unveil the first 3rd-party IC ingredient, The Book of Erotic Fantasy's Sacred Prostitute. After winning his 43rd first place trophy, Piggy Knowles will declare that the contest has finally jumped the shark, then promptly die of old age/a broken heart.

This whole thing is so hilarious that it made my freakin day. :smallbiggrin:

OMG PONIES

2013-09-11, 07:54 PM

After winning his 43rd first place trophy, Piggy Knowles will declare that the contest has finally jumped the shark, then promptly die of old age/a broken heart.

So I'll already have 44? :smalltongue:

123456789blaaa

2013-09-11, 07:59 PM

So I'll already have 44? :smalltongue:

Don't get too confident! Akal Saris might have a surprising comeback after years of being seduced by the demon real life :smalltongue:.

Might...:smallfrown:

A_S

2013-09-11, 08:15 PM

So I'll already have 44? :smalltongue:
Let's see, (5 / 7) = (42 / X)...cross multiply...looks like 59 to me. But obviously you're the 28th chairman, so no competition that round.

*edit* The text in the OP is still exactly the same, except that the answers to all of the FAQ sections start with, "Back in my day..."

relytdan

2013-09-11, 09:27 PM

entry submitted - if chairman will confirm please.

Deadline

2013-09-11, 10:28 PM

entry submitted - if chairman will confirm please.

Wow, that was fast.

Kazyan

2013-09-11, 10:34 PM

I have a good feeling about this one. Muhahahaha.

(Which means it will probably bomb even more horribly than my previous entries and have something that extra super doesn't work!)

Feilith

2013-09-11, 11:17 PM

I have a great idea, but it's resting on top of some shakey ground. Oh boy the judges are either gonna love it or rip it to shreds

P.S. A note to judges, Love my build :smallamused:

OMG PONIES

2013-09-12, 05:52 AM

My ubercheese build just fell apart because of alignment issues, but I stumbled into something else that might be workable. We'll see what I can make of it.

amalthia

2013-09-12, 02:05 PM

I am in probly will not get much for originality though

Vaz

2013-09-12, 02:06 PM

I've got one that's fairly boring. Might get hammered for power, I think, but I like the theme.

Deadline

2013-09-12, 04:43 PM

Well, scratch that idea. I've had a couple of solid ideas come and go, but they are just so obvious and vanilla that I don't want to trot them out in front of the judges. *sigh* Maybe an evening of rest will clear the fog from the creative places in my brain. :smalleek:

Gemini476

2013-09-12, 05:12 PM

I made one build, and then thought "Hey, these summoning abilities kind of suck at high levels! I should squeeze the SI in at the beginning!"
So I made another build. Despite putting more focus on the SI in the mid-game, the SI became almost totally irrelevant later due to the rest of the build outshining it. Back, foul PrC! Back to the Abyss from whence ye came!

Vaz

2013-09-12, 08:09 PM

Do we have any judging yet on the Pallor of Death ability, Kuulv?

a) Any Undead using a Humanoid as the base form, including templated Undead

or

b) Any Undead created out of Humanoids in fluff, specially excluding Templates?

or

c) Some other reading?

Is it limited to HD (as per Alter Self), does it allow you to bypass typing restrictions (normally, it's same type only; does this allow a humanoid, say, take Undead form?), and I think that's it :).

Kazyan

2013-09-12, 08:30 PM

Submitted. *rubs hands* I'll revise if Kuulvheysoon provides a ruling that axes one of the things I did.

CyberThread

2013-09-12, 11:09 PM

one question I do have, is the chef using a flat 20 build, or an exp pool that expands past that?

Vaz

2013-09-13, 01:54 AM

As an example, LA Buy-off is permitted, but it is an alternate rule system that is reliant on an DM accepting it, and some DM's are not willing to do so; this results in an elegance hit, especially if the build relies on the level 20 capstone.

Other elegance penalties may accrue as well, depending on whether a build makes use of lots of XP intensive tricks (such as crafting, say).

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-13, 09:55 AM

I've PM'd The Man about the Pallor of Death ability, because it could be taken multiple ways while still technically being RAW

As for the bonus feats, you must qualify for them except for the the Deformity (gaunt/obese) bonus feat provided at 4th level.

Amphetryon

2013-09-13, 10:22 AM

As for the bonus feats, you must qualify for them except for the the Deformity (gaunt/obese) bonus feat provided at 4th level.
I'm just clarifying that this is your ruling, in spite of Curmudgeon's answer in the RAW thread to the contrary. Correct?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-13, 10:28 AM

I'm just clarifying that this is your ruling, in spite of Curmudgeon's answer in the RAW thread to the contrary. Correct?

I'm not really contradicting him - yes, you get the feat, but you still cannot use/gain the benefits from it unless you qualify.
The text "the thrall gains the Deformity (obese) or Deformity (gaunt) feat as a bonus feat" is worded so it does bypass the usual rules regarding selecting that bonus feat, but the class does not include language to bypass the rules for using the feat. (See above citation.).
I probably should have been more specific. Apologies.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-13, 10:53 AM

I've PM'd The Man about the Pallor of Death ability, because it could be taken multiple ways while still technically being RAW

Weird, my inbox is empty... :smalltongue:

As for the bonus feats, you must qualify for them except for the the Deformity (gaunt/obese) bonus feat provided at 4th level.

I'm not really contradicting him - yes, you get the feat, but you still cannot use/gain the benefits from it unless you qualify..
I probably should have been more specific. Apologies.

So to confirm, you get the feat for free but you wouldn't gain the +2 CON, -2 DEX etc. from Obese (for example) unless you also have Willing Deformity?

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-13, 10:57 AM

Weird, my inbox is empty... :smalltongue:

So to confirm, you get the feat for free but you wouldn't gain the +2 CON, -2 DEX etc. from Obese (for example) unless you also have Willing Deformity?

Unfortunately, that's what the RAW seems to indicate.

RAI, I think that it's clear that they wanted you to gain the feat, but not be able to get another (general) deformity feat without paying the "real" cost of Willing Deformity.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-13, 11:05 AM

Unfortunately, that's what the RAW seems to indicate.

RAI, I think that it's clear that they wanted you to gain the feat, but not be able to get another (general) deformity feat without paying the "real" cost of Willing Deformity.

Duly noted. I'm updating my Secret Ingredient RAW Q&A post...and I'll post a link here if you want to include it in the second post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16002746&postcount=88).

relytdan

2013-09-13, 11:46 AM

RAI, I think that it's clear that they wanted you to gain the feat, but not be able to get another (general) deformity feat without paying the "real" cost of Willing Deformity.

ok , then I will go with the RAI of getting the benefits of the obese/gaunt for the stats ect, and use the argument that the DM will say it is ok to not need the "willing deformity feat"

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-13, 12:24 PM

In the year 2056, near the end of D&D 7e's tenure, having finally used up every single official 3.0 or 3.5 PrC, the 28th chairman will unveil the first 3rd-party IC ingredient, The Book of Erotic Fantasy's Sacred Prostitute. After winning his 43rd first place trophy, Piggy Knowles will declare that the contest has finally jumped the shark, then promptly die of old age/a broken heart.

Listen, this is not a good thing to read while sitting outside a courtroom. People expect you to have a certain sense of decorum there. They tend to give you funny looks when you start giggling over your smartphone.

So I'll already have 44? :smalltongue:

Well played, good sir, well played :smalltongue:

In other news, my entry seems to be coming together nicely, all in all. Was rough going for a while and I wasn't sure I was going to submit, but one small change has made everything else flow surprisingly well. Will just have to wait until I get home to make sure all of this is legal...

OMG PONIES

2013-09-13, 12:36 PM

Yeah, it took me a few tries, but I think I found my schtick for this character.

Venger

2013-09-13, 02:25 PM

I have an idea, but will wait til a ruling on pallor of death before feats and stuff

Segev

2013-09-13, 02:35 PM

I have an idea now that makes me snicker, but I'm going to have to see if I can make it...work.

CyberThread

2013-09-13, 03:19 PM

Yeah some of the abilities are iffy, with lots of issues as you go up higher in the levels, we get a follower, but we can't use any leadership tricks on it <-<

Macabaret

2013-09-13, 05:26 PM

I'm baaaaAAAaaack! And confused.

I'm not really contradicting him - yes, you get the feat, but you still cannot use/gain the benefits from it unless you qualify..
I probably should have been more specific. Apologies.

Does this mean that the poor Monk, who can choose to select Stunning Fist at 1st level, can have the feat, but isn't allowed to use it until she's got a +8 BAB? Or that a rather non-dextrous Ranger can select Two-Weapon Fighting at 2nd level, but just can't use it until her Dex gets higher?

CyberThread

2013-09-13, 05:54 PM

No clue, but does sound like a fun way to grab feats before you qualfy for them so you don't have to wait for them on another level post qualification .

OMG PONIES

2013-09-13, 05:59 PM

I'm baaaaAAAaaack! And confused. Does this mean that the poor Monk, who can choose to select Stunning Fist at 1st level, can have the feat, but isn't allowed to use it until she's got a +8 BAB? Or that a rather non-dextrous Ranger can select Two-Weapon Fighting at 2nd level, but just can't use it until her Dex gets higher?

Both examples you've cited contain crucial language that the Secret Ingredient lacks. Consider the following:

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them

If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

Emphasis mine. It's been a contested point for a while, because of quotes like:

A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Thus, there are two camps:

You have to specify if you don't need to meet prerequisites for bonus feats.
You have to specify if you do need to meet prerequisites for bonus feats.

To minimize debate, our Chairman has formally ruled on the former for this competition. Since your free deformity specifies that you get the feat no matter what, you have it and nobody can take it from you. But according to our Chairman and Curmudgeon, you can't use your deformity feat unless you qualify for it.

Macabaret

2013-09-13, 06:26 PM

Both examples you've cited contain crucial language that the Secret Ingredient lacks. Consider the following:...

Actually, they don't. Consider the following:

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

Emphasis mine.

The ruling for The Thrall of Orcus here seems predicated on the idea that having a feat and being able to use it are two different things. The wording for both monk and ranger (and, I assume, other classes' specified bonus feats) states clearly that the PC can (or even must) select the feat even without prerequisites, but makes no indication at all that the feat can be used.

Thus, my confusion.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-13, 06:48 PM

Sorry friend, just trying to help clarify the ruling of the Chairman. I apologize if it didn't clear anything up. For purposes of this competition, it sounds like the chairman is making a distinction between "having" and "using" Deformity (Obese) or Deformity (Gaunt). Outside this competition, such a distinction may not exist. That's the way I took it.

Macabaret

2013-09-13, 08:01 PM

Yup, that's pretty much the way I look at it, too.
I guess I was really just wondering if the ruling was specific to just the Massive Girth/Skeletal Visage ability or if it applied to all bonus feats of various classes and PrCs.
And, whether or not the ruling would be specific to this competition only, or if Kuulv was implementing it into IC during his Chairmanship.

On a somewhat completely unrelated note: Why does the Carrion Stench ability say "Furthermore, mindless undead creatures within the radius of the stench believe the thrall of Orcus to be undead." when they already do due to Lichloved being a prereq?

Vaz

2013-09-13, 08:21 PM

CyberThread

2013-09-13, 08:24 PM

Gemini476

2013-09-13, 08:43 PM

I just had a really ugly nightmare of a thought.....

Someone in this thread said vile feats are not EX but rather SU, so does that mean an antimagic field would suppress the feats, making all levels of thrall to orcus suddenly disspear as you no longer qualify for the PRC while in an anti-magic field?

Does an Ur-Priest lose his class features once he takes a level, due to having divine spells? Does a Dragon Disciple undergo Schrodinger's Apotheosis at 10th level?

The general consensus seems to be that only prestige classes from Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane need to qualify for the classes 24/7. A sorcerer could swap out his only Necromancy spell at level four in Thrall of Orcus, for example, but still be able to keep taking levels since you only need the prerequisites to take the first level.
...It's one of those parts of the rules where RAW is extremely fuzzy. "Martial Prestige Classes"? Is that only the classes in Complete Warrior, then?
For a related mind-twister, do all Prestige Classes give full Initiator Level, or only the ones in Tome of Battle?

Do note that whatever entity granted you your Vile feats (Orcus, most likely,) has RAW permission to revoke them should you annoy him enough. Not that it means much since most of the Vile feats you have to take are awful, but still.
All the more reason to get Vile feats from the Abyss itself, I suppose. If that's a valid option, that is.

EDIT:Hey, The Book of Vile Darkness is 3.0, right? Hence the Thrall having Scry as a skill and such.
I managed to track down a copy of 3.0's Alter Self, and it's a bit different from the 3.5 version.

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level:Sor/Wiz 2
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 action
Range:Personal
Target:You
Duration:10 minutes/level (D)
You can alter your appearance and form—
including clothing and equipment—to
appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in
between. The assumed form must be
corporeal. Your body can undergo a
limited physical transmutation, including
adding or subtracting one or two limbs,
and your weight can be changed up to one
half. If the form selected has wings, you
can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor
maneuverability. (The DUNGEON MASTER’s
Guide has information on
maneuverability.) If the form has gills, you
can breathe underwater.
Your attack rolls, natural armor bonus,
and saves do not change. The spell does
not confer special abilities, attack forms,
defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of
the chosen form. Once the new form is
chosen, it remains for the duration of the
spell. If you are slain, you automatically
return to your normal form.
If you use this spell to create a disguise,
you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise
check.
So technically Pallor of Death would just have changed your appearance to look undead - the "humanoid" part was just so you couldn't cheat in flight or add limbs. Suddenly this ability makes a lot more sense!

Venger

2013-09-13, 09:53 PM

On a somewhat completely unrelated note: Why does the Carrion Stench ability say "Furthermore, mindless undead creatures within the radius of the stench believe the thrall of Orcus to be undead." when they already do due to Lichloved being a prereq?

As is common among prcs, the prereqs and the class features proper seem to be done by entirely different people. The prereq of lichloved was either added after the guy had written super BO into the class, or the two things were simply done independently of one another.

as is, it indeed does nothing since you already have lichloved. the penalties to ppl are good though.

Segev

2013-09-13, 10:17 PM

As is common among prcs, the prereqs and the class features proper seem to be done by entirely different people. The prereq of lichloved was either added after the guy had written super BO into the class, or the two things were simply done independently of one another.

as is, it indeed does nothing since you already have lichloved. the penalties to ppl are good though.

Well, if you go with the theory that you do not, in fact, lose your PrC upon losing its prereq feats, a Dark Chaos Shuffle could ditch the Lichloved feat and still have the stench cover you (pun totally intended) with the Undead.

Haluesen

2013-09-14, 03:37 PM

To minimize debate, our Chairman has formally ruled on the former for this competition. Since your free deformity specifies that you get the feat no matter what, you have it and nobody can take it from you. But according to our Chairman and Curmudgeon, you can't use your deformity feat unless you qualify for it.

I really do not care for this. :smallannoyed: You can have feats but be unable to use them? Complete lunacy. As a DM, anything like that I would likely just rule that yes, the player was given the feat as part of a class, they can use it. All of this is crazy.

That plus all the other rule debates going on are really making me consider not participating here. The only good thing I see is that I have a pretty interesting idea I want to use. So really, shall see how this goes.

Amechra

2013-09-14, 03:47 PM

I'm considering drawing my participation from this competition for one particular reason:

That rule clarification (bonus feat) is unnecessary. I seem to recall prior competitions where the classes granted Bonus Feats, and a similar "clarification" was never asked for or given.

Please, please restrict any "rules clarification" to things that actual need such clarification, such as the "Humanoid Undead" from Pallor of Undeath, or other places where the rules are legitimately unclear.

If not, I'm gone, and enjoy your competition, folks.

EDIT: Vaz, BoVD was never officially errata'd or updated to 3.5. I think there might have been a Dragon Mag update, but Dragon Magazine isn't really official.

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 03:50 PM

but someone did ask for it, so that overcomes your own stipulation that no one mentioned it in the past. Are you holding your participation in the contest , as ... a hostage?

Kazyan

2013-09-14, 03:52 PM

Since ICOitp is an exercise in PO above all else--thus the emphasis on elegance and the dings for a variety of charop tricks--I'll put in a vote for getting rid of the complication that very few DMs would actually enforce, too.

Amechra

2013-09-14, 03:57 PM

Amphetryon

2013-09-14, 04:28 PM

123456789blaaa

2013-09-14, 05:22 PM

There have been other Ingredients, going back to before my tenure as Chairman, where the ruling on bonus Feats was exactly as it is in this particular round, due to the specific language on how those Feats were granted. See also: Tactical Soldier.

If we're going by past comps, then I think Macabaret's point about Monk and Ranger bonus feats apply as well. We've had a lot of rangers and monks in past comps and as far as I can remember, none used the interpretation used for this comps SI. If we're going to stick to dumb RAW, we should at least be consistent on it. What's the point of sticking it to an already suboptimal PRC while leaving other classes untouched?

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 05:24 PM

While I don't agree with this sudden argument over the rules, I personally won't be participating as anything I come up with the PRC feels tacked on rather then actually a part of the build besides rp theme.

Gemini476

2013-09-14, 05:46 PM

Nope... OK, wow, that came across as "change this, or I'll leave!"

Scratch the above, then. I'm just kinda curious about why the Chairman made such an odd decision as to the effects of the class feature. I mean, nowhere that I know of in 3.5 is a distinction made between having a feat and getting the benefits of that feat. If there was, I'd agree that the stated interpretation was RAW, but as it is, I don't feel that holds water.

It just makes no sense to me.

Say that you have Power Attack on your Fighter. Power Attack has a prerequisite of 13 Strength, but that's fine because you couldn't have taken it without having that. If your Strength would be lowered beneath 13 - be it temporarily or permanently - you would be unable to benefit from the Power Attack Feat, although you probably still be able to use some things that require Power Attack (the feat).

In 3.0 there was also a similar rule for losing features from Prestige Classes if you lost the Prerequisites, but that was (mostly) removed in 3.5.

Personally I am of the opinion that you do not have to qualify for Bonus Feats to be able to use them, but I am basing that view entirely upon the rules for Racial Bonus Feats. That Fighter could have kept using Power Attack if it was his Bonus Feat from being Human, for instance, but RAW he can't if it was his Fighter Bonus Feat.

Venger

2013-09-14, 06:32 PM

Humans' bonus feat is not a racial bonus feat.

ko_sct

2013-09-14, 10:27 PM

So, I'm thinking of participating for the first time, and I would like a very small and simple clarification...

I see mentions of both a special ingredient (thrall of orcus) and a secret ingredient, are those the same ? Or is there some secret ingredient that you only know when you participate in the challenge ?

thanks in advance

CyberThread

2013-09-14, 11:19 PM

They are the same :)

relytdan

2013-09-15, 08:30 AM

so here is my take on a couple things brought up RE: the language of the Bonus Feat & 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th - this is presumed that you must meet the normal prerequisites
Massive Girth/Skeletal Visage (Su): At 4th level, a thrall of Orcus must choose to become obese like her dread master or gaunt like an undead creature. Depending on the choice, the thrall gains the Deformity (obese) or Deformity (gaunt) feat as a bonus feat.

Useage of the PHB to attempt to clarify the language in the above Gaining of a feat - where a prerequisite is under normal conditions required - Obviously it is ment to be given as a Super Natural - so overrides , and if you want to go strickly by word language or lack of..

**Book of Vile Darkness
Monte Cook
October 1, 2002

Player's Handbook
Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet, Skip Williams
July 1, 2003**

please note that the 2 books have 1 author in common and the print dates - BOVD has no 3.5 update, and the folks who did PHB understood by that point folks were probly giving similar discussions on how granted feats were to be so they spelled it out very clear in that they( need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.)
so if the ruling stands for requiring the prerequisite of Willing deformity then I will have to concure with another preson to not only have my entry withdrawn but Boycot the competition for its unfairness.

Keynub

2013-09-15, 08:36 AM

so if the ruling stands for requiring the prerequisite of Willing deformity then I will have to concure with another preson to not only have my entry withdrawn but Boycot the competition for its unfairness.

Please forgive me my bluntness, but how would it be unfair if every participant has to comply with said ruling?

Oh, and hi everyone. I'm participating this round. :smallsmile:

Also, I am in favor of having the same ghost / vampire for everyone.

Korahir

2013-09-15, 08:52 AM

@relytdan: The chairman states the rules and the SI. If you don't like them, don't compete. This is not fair or unfair, this is your choice. So go ahead and do what you feel like.

Got my dish almost finished but I am waiting for the final ruling on Pallor of Death with the submission.

Deadline

2013-09-15, 02:01 PM

There are a surprising number of chefs who seem to want to take their ball and go home. I'm not sure they realize that the fewer entries we have, the more likely we will get multiple judges, so while it is sad to see folks turn away, it's not particularly harmful to the competition just yet.

That said, I'm guessing relytdan is upset because he already put in his entry. In case my fellow chefs were not aware, you can amend/update/replace your entry constantly right up until the submission deadline, if you need to. relytdan, your entry isn't set in stone, so if the Chairman's interpretation means you need to change your entry, you still have a week or so to do that. And everyone operating under the same rules is pretty much the definition of fair.

Also, this is all for laughs - folks shouldn't take it too seriously.

relytdan

2013-09-15, 02:09 PM

Dear Mr. Chairman
RE: Massive Girth/Skeletal Visage (Su): At 4th level, a
thrall of Orcus must choose to become obese like her dread
master or gaunt like an undead creature. Depending on the
choice, the thrall gains the Deformity (obese) or Deformity
(gaunt) feat as a bonus feat

Please respond with due haste.

From the FAQ:
[QUOTE=Kuulvheysoon;16016217]
As for the bonus feats, you must qualify for them except for the the Deformity (gaunt/obese) bonus feat provided at 4th level.

I fail to see any such commentary in the FAQ.

I'm not really contradicting him - yes, you get the feat, but you still cannot use/gain the benefits from it unless you qualify.

Unfortunately, that's what the RAW seems to indicate.
RAI, I think that it's clear that they wanted you to gain the feat, but not be able to get another (general) deformity feat without paying the "real" cost of Willing Deformity.

Please point explicitly to source and page that indicates by RAW / RAI where it says that gaining of a feat that has a prerequisite feat can be gained yet not used without the prerequisite having been met.

I will wait, pending outcome on the above RE:Massive Girth/Skeletal Visage (Su) from Mr. Chairman -

OMG PONIES

2013-09-15, 05:20 PM

I fail to see any such commentary in the FAQ.

I meant my RAW Q&A where I posted responses from the Chairman, like this one:

I've PM'd The Man about the Pallor of Death ability, because it could be taken multiple ways while still technically being RAW

As for the bonus feats, you must qualify for them except for the the Deformity (gaunt/obese) bonus feat provided at 4th level.

Why is this such a sticking point in this round? Round after round, we ask the Chairman to make decisions on poorly-written class abilities. How is this one any different?

Kazyan

2013-09-15, 05:22 PM

I can deal. It just seems weird. *shrugs, goes off to think up stuff for a second entry*

Vaz

2013-09-15, 05:27 PM

I'll survive.

Any news on pallour of death, it is the only thing i need to clarify for the build?

sabelo2000

2013-09-15, 06:02 PM

Wow, really guys. This is a contest with no real prize an an Internet forum dedicated to a webcomic that makes fun of an outdated roleplaying game. Don't take it so seriously. If some of you just can't accept the rulings of the Chairman (I didn't say agree, cause I don't; I said accept) then don't ruin the fun for the rest of us.

That said, Mr. Chairman, we are approaching the point where we'll need an official ruling on the vampire/ghost summon ability. With a week left before judging, I need to know if I'm to create a side dish for my character.

relytdan

2013-09-15, 06:51 PM

Not that I think matters as I did submit a revised entry-
just think that the wording of the granted feat implies useage and benefits there-in - all other current examples and questions point to the SRD under feats - generically applies to most class granted feats as a whole because most are no prereqs.

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-15, 06:59 PM

Man, my build is finished but I am just having the hardest time actually getting myself to start the write-up for my entry. Not sure why - perhaps just an odd case of writer's block. Hopefully I'll get inspired soon.

sabelo2000

2013-09-15, 07:33 PM

I know how you feel, Piggy. I've missed an entry or two for that exact reason.

Apropos of nothing, I'm suddenly curious to know: has The Giant ever competed in ICOC?

Amphetryon

2013-09-15, 07:53 PM

I know how you feel, Piggy. I've missed an entry or two for that exact reason.

Apropos of nothing, I'm suddenly curious to know: has The Giant ever competed in ICOC?

Nope, nor has he responded to any ICOC threads personally.

CyberThread

2013-09-15, 11:40 PM

I have a feeling the Giant has an alt account so he can enjoy the forum without, folks buggeirng him about the comic or admin questions.

On a side note, If I missed a ruling am sorry, but does SLA's that do necromancy count for qualifying on the PRC?

sabelo2000

2013-09-16, 02:26 AM

Hmm, have a working build for a 2nd entry, but it's risky... have to spend a lot of careful thought this week, and seek out some peer review.

Thurbane

2013-09-16, 02:47 AM

I have a feeling the Giant has an alt account so he can enjoy the forum without, folks buggeirng him about the comic or admin questions.

I hope you mean "bugging" him :smalleek:

dysprosium

2013-09-16, 09:27 AM

I'm having a hard time thinking of a good build for this one. :smallfrown:

Which is weird considering I have multiple entries in other rounds.

Unless I come up with a rather compelling idea (which does not seem likely), I believe I will judge this round.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-16, 10:15 AM

Its in an FAQ I've found in the back of a PDF I found so I could read on the train into work; notnsure if there is an official one, but it stated that ruling specifically and to ignore it. As well as clarifying that the death touch is 1/day as well.

Death Touch has no language about only being once per day.

Do note that whatever entity granted you your Vile feats (Orcus, most likely,) has RAW permission to revoke them should you annoy him enough. Not that it means much since most of the Vile feats you have to take are awful, but still.
All the more reason to get Vile feats from the Abyss itself, I suppose. If that's a valid option, that is.

EDIT:Hey, The Book of Vile Darkness is 3.0, right? Hence the Thrall having Scry as a skill and such.
I managed to track down a copy of 3.0's Alter Self, and it's a bit different from the 3.5 version.

So technically Pallor of Death would just have changed your appearance to look undead - the "humanoid" part was just so you couldn't cheat in flight or add limbs. Suddenly this ability makes a lot more sense!

I admitted that the RAI likely is to allow you to get the full benefits of the feat while being unable to qualify for any other Deformity feats. However, RAW, it's as Curmudgeon says.

After talking with The Man and digging out my 3.0e PHB (and re-discovering just how different alter self used to be), I've come to the conclusion that Pallor of Death is pretty much cosmetic. You do not gain the Undead type (or it's itinerant bonuses).

The Viscount

2013-09-16, 10:28 AM

So we should treat it as something like disguise self?

Vaz

2013-09-16, 10:50 AM

Yeah, just double checked the PDF I have; it's the inserted "Leaflets of Triel" which are fanproduced; ignore me.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-16, 10:56 AM

Death Touch has no language about only being once per day.

I admitted that the RAI likely is to allow you to get the full benefits of the feat while being unable to qualify for any other Deformity feats. However, RAW, it's as Curmudgeon says.

After talking with The Man and digging out my 3.0e PHB (and re-discovering just how different alter self used to be), I've come to the conclusion that Pallor of Death is pretty much cosmetic. You do not gain the Undead type (or it's itinerant bonuses).

I don't mean to drag out this debate-tell me if you're getting annoyed- but while it may be RAW, why aren't we applying the ruling to the Ranger and Monk ones as well?

Venger

2013-09-16, 11:26 AM

So we should treat it as something like disguise self?

it says "alter self"

OMG PONIES

2013-09-16, 11:33 AM

Death Touch has no language about only being once per day.

Already in the Rules Questions Q&A, but thanks for officially agreeing!

After talking with The Man and digging out my 3.0e PHB (and re-discovering just how different alter self used to be), I've come to the conclusion that Pallor of Death is pretty much cosmetic. You do not gain the Undead type (or it's itinerant bonuses).

Aha. So to clarify, you can use Alter Self to assume a form of the Humanoid type that merely appears undead, correct? Also, how does this interact with the earlier question about using the ability if you're not a humanoid (and thus can usually only alter self into other forms of the same type as yourself)?

I don't mean to drag out this debate-tell me if you're getting annoyed- but while it may be RAW, why aren't we applying the ruling to the Ranger and Monk ones as well?

Because neither Ranger nor Monk are the Secret Ingredient this round? :smalltongue:

Chairman: still looking for an official ruling on whether we can fulfill the "Must be able to cast a necromancy spell" via SLAs.

Deadline

2013-09-16, 11:41 AM

Chairman: still looking for an official ruling on whether we can fulfill the "Must be able to cast a necromancy spell" via SLAs.

This one is explicitly answered on page 72 of Complete Arcane, isn't it?

123456789blaaa

2013-09-16, 11:48 AM

<snip>
Because neither Ranger nor Monk are the Secret Ingredient this round? :smalltongue:

Chairman: still looking for an official ruling on whether we can fulfill the "Must be able to cast a necromancy spell" via SLAs.

So basically, the SI is always going to go by the strictest interpretation of RAW while the various interpretations applied to other classes can be more lenient?

Keynub

2013-09-16, 11:51 AM

This one is explicitly answered on page 72 of Complete Arcane, isn't it?

Unfortunately, it isn't.

As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

A requirement based on a specific spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge. For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness asa spell-like ability.

"Able to cast a necromancy spell" fits in neither of these categories : a specific level is not specified and neither is a specific spell. To my knowledge, no such clarification exists for a specific school.

So, in the absence of such an exception, a SLA cannot be used to meet that requirement. This is an implicit answer rather than an explicit one.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-16, 01:58 PM

This one is explicitly answered on page 72 of Complete Arcane, isn't it?

Keynub beat me to the punch:

Unfortunately, it isn't.

"Able to cast a necromancy spell" fits in neither of these categories : a specific level is not specified and neither is a specific spell. To my knowledge, no such clarification exists for a specific school.

So, in the absence of such an exception, a SLA cannot be used to meet that requirement. This is an implicit answer rather than an explicit one.

Because this answer is still implicit, I'm looking for our Chairman to make an explicit statement.

So basically, the SI is always going to go by the strictest interpretation of RAW while the various interpretations applied to other classes can be more lenient?

No. The SI is always going to go by explicit statements made by the Chairman. He stated that the limitation applied to Deformity Gaunt/Obese, and not to any bonus feats a ranger or monk might obtain. Absent any direct statement by the Chair, settle or cause rules disputes at your leisure.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-16, 02:15 PM

<snip>
No. The SI is always going to go by explicit statements made by the Chairman. He stated that the limitation applied to Deformity Gaunt/Obese, and not to any bonus feats a ranger or monk might obtain. Absent any direct statement by the Chair, settle or cause rules disputes at your leisure.

I understand that. I was trying to clarify the Chairmans thoughts on the matter. Why did he decide to make that ruling?

Deadline

2013-09-16, 03:42 PM

Arrrrrrrgggggh! Somehow I missed the prereqs on a feat I needed which qualified my dish for a flavorful side-dish PrC! And the prereqs utterly screw up my build to the point that it just falls apart entirely!

<VaderNooooo! /> *flips table and storms out*

:smalltongue:

On a serious note, scratch idea number 3. All I have now is my backup idea, and I don't like it very much. Time to stew on it and see if I can whip it into shape.

Vaz

2013-09-16, 03:44 PM

That sounds mighty interesting, you'll have to show it after the reveal.

Gemini476

2013-09-16, 04:18 PM

{Snipped due to possible spoiling}

For another question, everything not Dragon, Leadership, 3rd party, or Unearthed Arcana variant rules is allowed, correct?

Oh, and the vampire we summon isn't the exact same vampire every time, is it? Summon Monster summons a different monster each time (although the build is the same), and Unearthed Arcana had a variant rule to the effect of, well, summoning Bob the Celestial Porpoise every time instead of Celestial Porpoise #317.

Jurai

2013-09-16, 04:22 PM

Edit: Bwa Ha Ha Ha! It Lives! It Liiiiiiiiives!

Vaz

2013-09-16, 04:39 PM

Might want to avoid posting questions like that, it can identify you as the builder and we end up with only 1 such template. For what it is worth, LA buy off is ripe for a ding. I see no reason why avoiding LA by metagaming the DM into assuming there is 20th level progression is worth a similar ding. After all, what is then stopping you from not saying "and then I gain Xtemplate x10000000000"?

Don't make it integral to the build, is my suggestion.

More open ended ones (such as rulings on the SI explicitly), rather than possible entry/build direction are more 'acceptable' in this regard.

sabelo2000

2013-09-17, 01:54 AM

This is turning out to be a very contentious round. Lots of trouble with build qualifications and some malcontent about the Chairman's rulings... It'll be interesting to see how things go after the Reveal. On the other hand, a smaller field means my chances are higher than before. Maybe this time I can break into Top 5? Although, I think the 5 people who always beat me are still in this game. All in all, I'm pretty excited.

EDIT: Build #2 complete. Now to wait, and see if there's enough room in this field for me to play 2 entries. As much stink as I've raised about it before, I don't wanna end up submitting builds 23 AND 24 and exhausting our judges.

CyberThread

2013-09-17, 09:09 AM

May need to call the mods down here on rulings, we may have an outright riot :P

dysprosium

2013-09-17, 10:01 AM

EDIT: Build #2 complete. Now to wait, and see if there's enough room in this field for me to play 2 entries. As much stink as I've raised about it before, I don't wanna end up submitting builds 23 AND 24 and exhausting our judges.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Judges are going to judge no matter how many (or how few) entries there are.

The idea of more entries means less judges and its corollary has been shown to be false.
Cipher Adept: 13 entries, 1 judge (and a debut at that!)
last round Shadow Sun Ninja: 21 entries, 2 judges

On that note I will definitely be a judge this round. I cannot seem to create (to me) a compelling story or build for this ingredient.

Deadline

2013-09-17, 10:14 AM

On that note I will definitely be a judge this round. I cannot seem to create (to me) a compelling story or build for this ingredient.

It's rough when that happens, but HUZZAH! Thanks for volunteering to judge. I may have to cook up multiple dishes, just for you. :smallwink:

Also, I had no idea you were such a veteran of the Zinc Saucier challenge!

dysprosium

2013-09-17, 10:23 AM

<----- loves the Zinc Saucier! I seem to do much better in that competition than this one.

I judged the ZS XV and Scrap Iron Chef II also, but never an Iron Chef so it will be exciting.

And yes make multiple dishes! I want my evil taste buds to be thrilled by the depths of evil that only the Playground can cook up.

Deadline

2013-09-17, 10:28 AM

And yes make multiple dishes! I want my evil taste buds to be thrilled by the depths of evil that only the Playground can cook up.

I'd be happy to!

If I could just get my ideas to flipping work... *grumble*

Jurai

2013-09-17, 12:24 PM

I'm backing out. My dishes keep falling apart on me, like undead soufflés in an Earthquake spell.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-17, 01:59 PM

I understand that. I was trying to clarify the Chairmans thoughts on the matter. Why did he decide to make that ruling?

I decided to go with The Man (Curmudgeon)'s reading of the feat.

Seeing how much this stirred you guys up, however, next time I'll stick with the RAI reading of the feature.

I would also agree with Keynub's reading of Complete Arcane on the subject of the Necromancy requirement.

Korahir

2013-09-17, 02:18 PM

I decided to go with The Man (Curmudgeon)'s reading of the feat.

I would also agree with Keynub's reading of Complete Arcane on the subject of the Necromancy requirement.

There goes [redacted]. Too bad, well back to the table and tweek even more.

relytdan

2013-09-18, 07:54 AM

I would also agree with Keynub's reading of Complete Arcane on the subject of the Necromancy requirement.

Mr. Chairman - I would like to request that the necromancy and massive girth/ skeletal visage Ruleing descissions be added to the FAQ post #2 - Thankyou

JanusJones

2013-09-18, 08:08 AM

Bowing out! Cheers!

EDIT: May judge, if time allows.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-18, 08:13 AM

Mr. Chairman - I would like to request that the necromancy and massive girth/ skeletal visage Ruleing descissions be added to the FAQ post #2 - Thankyou

Or a simple link to my Secret Ingredient RAW Q&A post...page 4 I think it was.

Deadline

2013-09-18, 09:25 AM

Bowing out! Cheers!

EDIT: May judge, if time allows.

Bummer! Oh well, I'd be keen to see you judge, if you get the chance.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-18, 09:56 AM

Mr. Chairman - I would like to request that the necromancy and massive girth/ skeletal visage Ruleing descissions be added to the FAQ post #2 - Thankyou

Can do. howdy, white-space.

Deadline

2013-09-18, 12:16 PM

Oh, oh that works! The idea that fell apart works in this new configuration! Mr. Chairman, there will be a second build incoming from me for this round, assuming I can get the fluff and tactics writeup done in the next day or two. Can you please confirm you received my first dish (Note: I sent an updated replacement for it that you should use instead of the first PM I sent you).

Kuulvheysoon

2013-09-18, 01:03 PM

Korahir

2013-09-18, 01:47 PM

I also submitted. Have to admit this one was way tougher than all my previous entries. Hope we get at least two judges.

CyberThread

2013-09-18, 02:05 PM

Venger

2013-09-18, 02:17 PM

As we have not had any headway it seems on the vampire issue, I will be making my version of it.

Some clarity , is it Vampire Level -1 of PRC level, or is it vampire ECL -1 of PRC level.

(so am a making a level 1 vampire...or level 8 one?)

let's say you've finished the SI, so your class level is 10

this means that you are summoning a vampire of an ECL 1 less than your class level, which is 9

vampires are LA +8, so your vampire would have 1 class level.

I thought we'd agreed that we'd all be using the same vampire so we wouldn't all have to cook a bunch of dishes. did I miss something?

Korahir

2013-09-18, 02:29 PM

123456789blaaa

2013-09-18, 02:45 PM

let's say you've finished the SI, so your class level is 10

this means that you are summoning a vampire of an ECL 1 less than your class level, which is 9

vampires are LA +8, so your vampire would have 1 class level.

I thought we'd agreed that we'd all be using the same vampire so we wouldn't all have to cook a bunch of dishes. did I miss something?

Aren't ECL and Character Level different things?:

If she chooses a vampire or a ghost, its character level is one less than the thrall’s class level.

Are you sure? My understanding was that character level=hit dice, and that it's different from effective character level.

I believe this is correct. ECL includes LA, but character level doesn't.

That said, I just looked pretty hard to find a primary source for this, and I couldn't. The closest thing I found was an SRD quote (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm):

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level

...that indicates that ECL and character level are not the same thing.

However, Urpriest's monster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) does explicitly say that:

your Character Level is your total Hit Dice, Racial Hit Dice plus Class Levels.

...and given how astonishingly well-researched the rest of it is, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here. Urpriest, you happen to be reading this thread? Got a source handy?

-----

If this is right, it would obviously make the vampire/ghost summon a lot better.

Re: The level of the summoned minions, Urpriest just got back to me with two more pieces of evidence that "character level" does not include LA (and therefore that your summons can be pretty tough).

1. It was explicitly stated in Savage Species (which is 3.0, but unless somebody can find 3.5 text explicitly contradicting it, rather than just failing to clarify it, it's the best we have to go on):

Character Level: When a creature's description refers to character level, add any class levels it has to the base creature's Hit Dice to determine the character level. This is not the same as effective character level...which also includes a level adjustment.

2. If character level included LA, the rules on skill and feat acquisition would be borked. For example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm):

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).

Does anybody think that LA is included when calculating your maximum skill rank?

-----

Thanks to Urpriest for pointing these out to me!

EDIT: Off topic: I sent a pm to you a few weeks ago and another one a few weeks before that. You haven't responded yet. Did you forget about it, have you just been busy with other stuff, did they not get to you...etc? Not knowing eats away at my mind.

Gemini476

2013-09-18, 02:46 PM

The issue with the vampire summon is that the class feature calls out "character level" rather than "ECL". And those are defined as different things, if a bit vaguely.
Character Level = Hit Dice
Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Level Adjustment

EDIT: And apparently Savage Species has a quote. Huh. Book of Vile Darkness is also 3.0, by the way.

CyberThread

2013-09-18, 03:10 PM

vampire with 8 playing levels it is

<-< am gonna drop the dish open a little early, so I can let others smell the aroma..... my vampire is special and can't afford to be generic :P

Deadline

2013-09-18, 03:53 PM

Second submission is nearly done, just have to finish up the fluff. I'm excited about this one, I think it will be a dish that the judges like the taste of.

Deadline

2013-09-18, 04:57 PM

Sorry for the double post. At your convenience, could you confirm receipt of my second dish, Honorable Chairman?

relytdan

2013-09-18, 05:55 PM

RE: Vampire - IMHO - I am under the impression that everyone was getting the same creature, as builds could in theory be presented without the vampire attached and get full points for it scoring wise, regaurdless of their level of SI.
so folk should not do their own as it would possibly cause an imbalance.

Venger

2013-09-18, 06:02 PM

CyberThread

2013-09-18, 08:04 PM

semi big issue though, if your build hovers around the vampire, how can you use it , if we have no clue what that vampire looks like yet?

Mid way compromise- we give two cents on what our vampire does or is, as far as intent that matters towards the main build?

Vaz

2013-09-19, 03:32 AM

Eh, I'm assuming a Vampire Human Commoner 8-9 with Toughness x4-5 for my build.

I don't want to rely on any particular build (a White Raven Tactics or DFI Bard would rapidly improve any build, but it's not the Vampire summon, it's the DFI Bard summon that's providing the boost.

Essentially, what can I use the Ghost Template ally for in my build (what use is its Malevolence/Horrific Appearance etc), and what can I use the Vampire Template for (Energy Drain, or Dominate, etc).

The actual build of the Vampire itself would help whether it was a Vampire or a non-templated creature; what is so pertinent about the Vampire template as to make it so useable.

A_S

2013-09-19, 04:19 AM

EDIT: Off topic: I sent a pm to you a few weeks ago and another one a few weeks before that. You haven't responded yet. Did you forget about it, have you just been busy with other stuff, did they not get to you...etc? Not knowing eats away at my mind.
(This was to Venger, not me, right?)

OMG PONIES

2013-09-19, 01:59 PM

Okay, my entry's finally all formatted and written up except for the backstory. Luckily, I think I've got a fun concept tumbling around so it's just about putting words to it.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-19, 02:30 PM

(This was to Venger, not me, right?)

Right.

Which reminds me: Venger, I got your pm yesterday and pmed you back almost immediately. I presume you didn't get it?

Vaz

2013-09-20, 01:31 PM

So I spent 3-4 days book diving between work to create the build, then decided it was just too generic. I'll release it after the reveal, but then spent a fevered few hours puttimg together my final build. Finished it, and thing I've got it all. Gone give it until tomorrow AM then error check and PM it.

Korahir

2013-09-20, 01:35 PM

Not sure if I should make a new thread for this:

Has anyone of you ever played an Iron Chef Entry in a game or used one as an NPC?

Venger

2013-09-20, 01:56 PM

Finished my entry last night. Proofreading today and checking for spelling and the like. I'm exceptionally proud of this one.

Not sure if I should make a new thread for this:

Has anyone of you ever played an Iron Chef Entry in a game or used one as an NPC?

That would be an awfully fun topic of discussion. I'd suggest you start a new one though and link to it here.

Korahir

2013-09-20, 02:11 PM

Did it: Discuss here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304492) if you want to.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-20, 04:54 PM

Finished my entry last night. Proofreading today and checking for spelling and the like. I'm exceptionally proud of this one.

Same...which means we've both built the same thing.

Kazyan

2013-09-20, 05:04 PM

I've already submitted my best idea ever.

It will be similar to so many other entries.

Then again, I usually Vizzini in the right direction...

CyberThread

2013-09-20, 06:04 PM

I have played old lob as a npc against my players, game him a few tems of meld into earth to really piss my players off

Venger

2013-09-20, 06:07 PM

Same...which means we've both built the same thing.

I will be flabbergasted beyond words if you cooked the same thing I did this time around. I got pretty weird with this one.

123456789blaaa

2013-09-20, 06:31 PM

I will be flabbergasted beyond words if you cooked the same thing I did this time around. I got pretty weird with this one.

Venger you're making the wait even more unbearable :smallfrown:.

Also, I think you may have missed one of my posts:

Right.

Which reminds me: Venger, I got your pm yesterday and pmed you back almost immediately. I presume you didn't get it?

Segev

2013-09-20, 10:53 PM

I doubt I'll get one put together in time. Just haven't had the time when I've had the energy to churn out the numbers. I might submit the fluff as an exhibition post later, if I miss the deadline (as is very likely; in fact, as I type this, I can no longer recall if it's tonight or Sunday, though I think it's Sunday).

Amphetryon

2013-09-20, 10:56 PM

Gemini476

2013-09-21, 11:49 AM

Hrm. Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to make a decent build out of this, so I won't submit anything.

I'll comment on some of the cool stuff with the Thrall of Orcus once everything is revealed, though, if no-one uses them in the entries.

Venger

2013-09-21, 11:57 AM

Man, contestants are dropping like flies. Anyone got a tally of how many people are still in the race?

Submitted mine. Very happy with it.

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-21, 12:05 PM

Goodness, I don't know why, but I am still having such trouble getting this build into an actual entry. I like the build, but every time I start writing up the entry itself, I stop to do basically ANYTHING else.

If we have until Monday, I will still probably submit, but no guarantees - for some reason I'm just not really feeling this one.

relytdan

2013-09-21, 12:49 PM

as per who all is still in -not sure, I know that I have submited builds

Vaz

2013-09-21, 01:56 PM

Just realized I have until Monday night, rather than Sunday. I might be able to get the first build sorted as I have a half day and a day off on Sunday and Monday.

Got my build done, however, just PM'ing it inside the next few minutes. Would the Chairman be able to confirm receipt of said build, muchas gracias?

Edit;

Confirmed Entrants #9 (is this okay, or does it go against anonymity?)
; Kazyan
; Venger
; relytdan
; Vaz
; Keynub
; sabelo2000
; Piggy Knowles
; Deadline
; OMG Ponies!
; YOU!

Judges;
- dysprosium
- Amphetryon

Vaz

2013-09-22, 03:53 AM

Cyberdrag; the competition is supposed to be anonymous to remove bias. Stating what components are part of your build gives the game away, you might want to remove the identifier from your post.

CyberThread

2013-09-22, 10:17 AM

think you missed the part where I don't want to format everything :) , I am making no submission.

Segev

2013-09-22, 11:49 AM

I have a concept for a submission taht amuses me. Making mechanical decisions is proving less engaging than I would normally hope.

Keynub

2013-09-22, 05:24 PM

I've just submitted my entry, so I'll definitely be participating this round.

sabelo2000

2013-09-23, 02:07 AM

Builds submitted. For the first time ever I feel comfortable entering two dishes, given the number of Chefs who have advised they will not compete. Let's hope both of my dishes are pleasing to our judges' palates.

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-23, 07:16 AM

My build is submitted.

I believe Ponies said he was submitting a build, and I think Deadline said he might have two? So we should have a pretty decent number all told.

Deadline

2013-09-23, 09:35 AM

and I think Deadline said he might have two?

Affirmative. I'm curious to see how they do. I would have only gone with one, but the other had a vignette I felt was nicely thematic, and is no slouch in the power department, so we'll see what happens.

I'm keen to see how folks do on their Elegance and Use of the Secret Ingredient categories this time around.

dysprosium

2013-09-23, 09:41 AM

I'm keen to see how folks do on their Elegance and Use of the Secret Ingredient categories this time around.

You will all know . . . in time!

Korahir

2013-09-23, 09:49 AM

I also submitted. So we should end up once again with a decent amount of submissions.

OMG PONIES

2013-09-23, 10:09 AM

My build is submitted.

I believe Ponies said he was submitting a build, and I think Deadline said he might have two? So we should have a pretty decent number all told.

I did say that, and I made myself an honest man this morning. Chairman, you should have my submission in your inbox. Now...we wait.

Deadline

2013-09-23, 10:33 AM

Hmm, not only do I have to compete with a host of quality chefs, I've also got to compete with the dynamic duo of PONIES and Piggy? I may fall far short of my goals this round. Ze anticipation, it kills me! :smallbiggrin:

dysprosium

2013-09-23, 10:36 AM

I have no doubt of the quality of the builds submitted.

I just want my judging to measure up.

And yes, a Monday reveal is really rough!

Venger

2013-09-23, 10:59 AM

I have no doubt of the quality of the builds submitted.

I just want my judging to measure up.

And yes, a Monday reveal is really rough!

Oh, you're judging? what a treat. I look forward to your thoughts on my dish.

Just 8 hours left. Can't wait to see what the other chefs cooked up. This ingredient was a lot more difficult to cook with than I thought. It's like we had to make 3 courses based on a durian.

The Viscount

2013-09-23, 11:16 AM

It's like we had to make 3 courses based on a durian.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/000/601/C6QJPRHW4QF6KFDP7XJNW24TNDI4YNF2.jpg
Coming down to the wire for me. If I don't get it submitted by the deadline, I'll post what I have after the reveal for those who are interested

Gemini476

2013-09-23, 11:18 AM

Oh, you're judging? what a treat. I look forward to your thoughts on my dish.

Just 8 hours left. Can't wait to see what the other chefs cooked up. This ingredient was a lot more difficult to cook with than I thought. It's like we had to make 3 courses based on a durian.

Durian is apparently somewhat tasty, although in this case the stench makes the comparison appropriate.

As a Secret Ingredient, Thrall of Orcus is more like Surströmming or that rotten, buried-three-weeks, icelandic shark dish.

Segev

2013-09-23, 11:23 AM

Ehn. I don't think I'll get done in time. If I miss the deadline, I'll do a brief text write-up as an exhibition. The design likely would fail miserably in power, anyway, if it didn't flub in elegance. And even then...well.

Venger

2013-09-23, 12:44 PM

Durian is apparently somewhat tasty, although in this case the stench makes the comparison appropriate.

As a Secret Ingredient, Thrall of Orcus is more like Surströmming or that rotten, buried-three-weeks, icelandic shark dish.

It depends on the kinds of durian, since there are many different varieties. individual taste is also a big part of it.

rotting fermented shark is called "hakarl"

I stand by my comparison to durian, though. the stink for your super BO ability, and how most people (actual play) think it's awful, but a small minority (us) think it's workable or maybe even kind of... good?

Amphetryon

2013-09-23, 01:16 PM

Can't get my concept to do anything reasonably original, apparently. I'll be judging this round. Criteria will be edited in to this post shortly.

EDIT: As promised:
MY CRITERIA: When more than a single example is given for a score, not all examples need be met to warrant that score.

Originality: Originality looks in part at the established archetypes and builds that the community at large has produced over the years. Characters attempting to perform, yet less adept at performing, as a well-established archetype - for instance, a charger - than typical for that archetype will score lower here than characters attempting to break new ground. Examples of a given score:
5 - A new concept, necessitating the Thrall of Orcus PrC.
4 - A new concept, using Thrall of Orcus without requiring it to tick.
3 - An unusual concept that has been showcased on gaming forums before, or that is featured in other contest entrants. It’s not new, but it’s not stock standard either.
2 - An old reliable concept, substituting Thrall of Orcus for the one typically used in discussions of builds of this type.
1 - A build either cut and pasted or cobbled together entirely from extant handbooks and other known works. No new ideas are presented.

Power: Power is measured assuming a 1st - 20th campaign. Characters that come to power very late in the progression, or that are somehow ineligible to play at low levels, can expect a deduction here as surely as characters whose power peaks at low-to-mid levels and then relatively diminishes. Examples of a given score, relative to other entrants in the contest:
5 - Easily the most powerful, flexible build presented here.
4 - A powerful character that might need help or additional preparation in specific circumstances to continue to do its job well.
3 - A build that is of average power for the contest, neither significantly stronger nor appreciably weaker overall. It may dominate in niche cases or be rendered weak in other niche cases.
2 - While less powerful than the typical entry for this contest, the character manages to contribute reasonably without relying on help from other party members.
1 - The build struggles to perform to the expectations typical for a character in the role assigned. Either the character relies heavily on help from other party members or requires specific equipment not restricted to the given role in order to be useful.

Elegance: Note that I tie the Elegance score closely to the Secret Ingredient. Shifter Druid 18/Moonspeaker 2 may be simple, but it is not an elegant use of Moonspeaker, to my mind. Note also that my default assumption is that characters presented are being inserted into an already-established world. A character that requires the DM to rewrite or ignore large swaths of existing fluff for your concept to work is unlikely to score highly in Elegance. References to Unearthed Arcana include those aspects of Unearthed Arcana that are included in the Variant section of the SRD. If I have to go hunting through books just to figure out where you got a particular feat, item, template, or obscure skill usage, expect no more than a 2 in Elegance. Examples of a given score:
5 - Thrall of Orcus is entered appropriately early and taken to completion. All class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items are smoothly tied together and progress the whole concept seamlessly and in a logical order. Favored Class rules are adhered to, and single-level dips are kept to a bare minimum - no more than one. No Unearthed Arcana, templates, LA or Racial HD, or other obvious power-oriented shenanigans were used. One could reasonably expect a majority of DMs to allow both the concept and progression to happen in a typical game.
4 - Thrall of Orcus is entered reasonably early, perhaps delayed a bit or taken piecemeal, but finished. All class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items are useful, but may not be intuitive choices to augment the presented concept. No Unearthed Arcana, templates, LA or Racial HD, or other obvious shenanigans were used, though Favored Class rules may have been ignored. One might expect to have to explain some bits of the build fairly carefully to a DM and possibly work out some accommodations, but flying books or dice bags are unlikely.
3 - Thrall of Orcus is taken to completion, but entered later than expected or typical of this contest. Class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items are taken in a disjointed fashion, perhaps indicating power is more important than concept. This character may use a race with a level adjustment for thematic reasons, or be forced to take a flaw or two to fit everything in, or use some other method of grabbing more feats or spells or other features than one would typically expect. One would have to work closely with the DM for some features of the presented build to be available, work as described in the build presented, or come online in a timely fashion, and wouldn’t necessarily expect to get this character approved by a DM that doesn’t know the player well.
2 - Thrall of Orcus is abandoned before reaching its capstone or entered too late to finish before Epic levels. Class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items do not share a unifying theme or work toward a more powerful whole. A template and LA are both included, possibly with flaws. Without an established rapport with a DM, one would expect the concept to meet with enough resistance that having a Plan B is advised when pitching the idea.
1 - Vivacious Anthropomorphic Dire Were-Squid Half-Fiend Domain Wizard with Frail and Inattentive and. . . no. Just no. So many discordant templates and feats and ideas have been slapped together that ‘a Wizard did it’ is the only viable explanation for the character’s existence. Thrall of Orcus appears to have been an afterthought to the overall design. You would fully expect the character idea either to be rejected by the DM, or to have come into being entirely through the DM’s meddling with your character, and wouldn’t broach the subject with the DM if dice, books or other potential projectiles were within easy reach.

Use of Secret Ingredient: This is a conglomeration of how well, and how thoroughly, you incorporate the abilities of the Secret Ingredient into the build. Examples of a given score, relative to other entrants:
5 - A fresh, original usage maximizing the particular strengths and minimizing the particular weaknesses of the Thrall of Orcus. Every aspect of Thrall of Orcus is utilized in the best way of any entry presented.
4 - A solid, complete usage of Thrall of Orcus. Specific strengths of the Secret Ingredient were emphasized with minimal emphasis taken away from other strengths, or without negating known weaknesses.
3 - Use of Thrall of Orcus was typical for the contest. Synergies were not emphasized especially, and some features of the Thrall of Orcus were ignored for the sake of maximizing a particular trick or two.
2 - Others used the Thrall of Orcus more thoroughly, but this entry’s usage wasn’t bad. The overall concept works but doesn’t especially synergize with the Thrall of Orcus' strengths well. If the main trick you're highlighting is based on your other class(es), don't expect higher than a 2 here.
1 - The Thrall of Orcus is actively hindering the concept presented. Clearly the character would have been stronger with a different Prestige Class, and the Thrall of Orcus got shoe-horned in there because of the contest.

dysprosium

2013-09-23, 01:55 PM

Oh, you're judging? what a treat. I look forward to your thoughts on my dish.

Just 8 hours left. Can't wait to see what the other chefs cooked up. This ingredient was a lot more difficult to cook with than I thought. It's like we had to make 3 courses based on a durian.

Yes, judging because I could not think of a build that would be interesting.

I drew a total blank. Normally for these contests once I see the ingredient I have an idea immediately but not this one.

Plus I'm probably way overdue to judge one of these . . .

Venger

2013-09-23, 02:22 PM

Yes, judging because I could not think of a build that would be interesting.

I drew a total blank. Normally for these contests once I see the ingredient I have an idea immediately but not this one.

Plus I'm probably way overdue to judge one of these . . .

That's cool. I did the same thing back in cryokineticist. I looked at it and just said "I can't make anything interesting with this." so decided to judge.

Macabaret

2013-09-23, 03:52 PM

Ok, build submitted.
I felt a bit rushed at the end of it all here, so I'm not feeling that it's as well done as it could be, but it's in on time. Hopefully it'll be well received.

Good luck to the other cooks this round, and thank you to all of the judges.

Vaz

2013-09-23, 03:55 PM

Deadline

2013-09-23, 04:00 PM

I was feeling good this morning.

Then I learn Piggy, OMG, AND Macaberet are playing?

Well, at least there's always honorable mention, right?

Actually it's unfair to identify those 3 alone, everyone's really begun to get the challenge nailed down; consistently getting 14-15+ scores leaving it a big jumble for points.

I know what you mean. I'm excited to see what everyone's cooked up, because I know they'll all be awesome, but I'm dreading to see what Piggy, OMG, and Macaberet have cooked up, because I'm reasonably sure they'll be more awesome than mine. Oh well, maybe this is the round where I blow away all the competition and dethrone some of the top chefs.

That, or I'll be a fightin' ye fer the Honorable Mention. :smallbiggrin:

It's also possible that Vknight's predictions may start coming true, and I may start consistently hitting 4th place. Who knows?

Good luck to all of my fellow chefs!

Kazyan

2013-09-23, 04:04 PM

I am confident in getting a relatively high scoring...if no one took my idea.

Deadline

2013-09-23, 04:16 PM

Mr. Chairman, I just updated my second dish (after finding a few typos), can you confirm receipt of that submission?