Laurin's favor [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

goodyarn

2013-10-14, 10:22 AM

Anyone else thinks T just did a major mistake by giving Laurin a favor which can be completed at The end of the day?

I do. And I think it's something which, combined with his defeat by OOTS, trumps both his proclamations in #763 of how he can't be beaten. The first was (paraphrasing) "The last 10 minutes of my life may suck, but before that I lived like a king for 30 years." And the second was (again paraphrasing): "If my son fails to kill me, I get to be a king. If he wins, I get to be a legend."

I am not sure what exactly will happen, but I think Elan will NOT defeat Tarquin; Roy will, robbing Tarquin of his legendary status. And Tarquin will NOT die quickly. He will be left to linger in humiliation and suffering, robbing him of the satisfaction of having living for so long on top.

At least, I would find that a satisfying conclusion.

(EDIT) It might be hard to see Laurin's motivation for betraying Tarquin. BUT she clearly cared deeply about Malack and she blames Tarquin for his death. She thinks Tarquin was foolish to throw his army at OOTS. If this latest venture goes south, she may conclude Tarquin can't be trusted anymore.

Kornaki

2013-10-14, 10:37 AM

factotum

2013-10-14, 10:50 AM

Well, these favours appear to be powerful enough to get Miron to risk his life helping to kill the Order. I don't believe Laurin will ask Tarquin to leave, though--whatever she has in mind is going to be a lot more devious than that. (Somebody in the main thread suggested the favour might be that she asks him to kill Elan, but that *would* be a bit too extreme, to my mind. Sparing Roy might be on the cards, but I don't know why she'd ask that particular favour).

Mike Havran

2013-10-14, 10:54 AM

Sparing Roy might be on the cards, but I don't know why she'd ask that particular favour.
Obviously,

She's Roy's aunt and when he was a little baby, she introduced him to his favourite book "The Little Psion That Could". :smallwink:

goodyarn

2013-10-14, 10:55 AM

Why would Tarquin agree to do that? It's not like he signed a binding contract to perform any one act that Laurin requests, he just agreed to owe her a favor. I know there's a villain code that favors are sacrosanct but let's not blow it out of proportion.

First, I don't think "You're out of our club" is the favor. When people kick you out of their club, they don't need your consent.

Second, it need not even be something that Tarquin immediately recognizes will lead to his downfall (e.g., "Let me borrow item X" without telling him that she will then immediately use item X on him).

Third, even if Tarquin does see that the favor puts makes him vulnerable, I still think he reluctantly honors the favor. Procedure is important, after all.

skim172

2013-10-14, 10:56 AM

We know very little about Laurin, so it's tough to speculate. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that she may actually be linked to another thread of the story. Perhaps she's got some business with Ian Starshine. Or, she wants to get rid of the elves to the north. Or, she's wants to get rid of the Azurites. Or, she even has something to do with the main plot and Kraagor's Gate.

So maybe the favor is something that can be done quickly, that, while not necessarily accomplishing the goal outright, can help her progress towards it.

Toper

2013-10-14, 11:24 AM

All we've ever seen of Tarquin's team indicates that they work well together, generally enjoy one another's company in spite of philosophical disagreements, and have been together for quite a while. In short, it appears to be a relationship based on mutual respect.

Given that, it would seem quite out of character for them to subvert one another's goals. While obviously Laurin's favor will be something Tarquin doesn't really want to do (otherwise she wouldn't spend a favor on it), it's hard to believe she'd intentionally try to weaken him or prevent him from pursuing his legacy. They just don't seem to be backstabbers like that -- they may roll their eyes at Tarquin's behavior, but they respect him no less than the Order respects Roy.

I imagine the favor will be something mundane but embarrassing or awkward or time-consuming.

Fish

2013-10-14, 11:56 AM

All I can reasonably guess is that we are likely to find out what the favor is (or would have been). Miron and Laurin bear the Order no specific animus, and if the Order beats Tarquin, the other two may not hold a grudge.

It's entirely possible that Tarquin and his buddies attack the Order, the Order says, "Dude, we're trying to save the world!" and Laurin and Miron say, "Tarky, why didn't you say this earlier? Let them GO."

Dante2001

2013-10-14, 12:20 PM

Now that I think of i, I think that T may have more friendship on these guys than it is pointed so far. May lead to a moment like "T apologizing to Malack". IF they are truly friends with Laurin, IMO she may use her favor regarding her daughter.

Possible reasons:

-Daughter (although what can T give her (or spare her) i don't know)
-Money (kind of weird to use the favor asking money when you reign an empire) or some item she may want from him
-Leverage to make someone new enter the team?
-Marrying him? lol

Dodom

2013-10-14, 12:22 PM

The only thing we know about Laurin's motives is that she wants her family to be well-off and away from all the dirty machinations she's herself involved in.
Maybe her favour could simply be to be allowed to join them. Just retire with enough wealth to finish her days peacefully with them, with the promise not to be harmed by the rest of the team.
On one hand this leaves Team Tarquin understaffed and maybe unable to maintain its hold on the continent, on the other hand if Tarquin won't grant that, it'll send a pretty bad message to his other allies.

Hopeless

2013-10-14, 12:24 PM

How about she gets Tarquin to agree to a suggestion she makes to Elan and company?

That you and your friends leave these lands and never return... that would be a humdinger that would resolve things and get back at Tarquin for what happened to Malack wouldn't it?

Dante2001

2013-10-14, 12:43 PM

I doubt it. When you ask a favor you expect the other person to help you and, in this case, the one who is helping may ask you a favor in the future.

I think its implied that you can't ask a favor to counter or cripple the favor you are doing in the first place

I think I rolled one on [Explaining myself]

Diadem

2013-10-14, 12:49 PM

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-14, 12:52 PM

Obviously,

She's Roy's aunt and when he was a little baby, she introduced him to his favourite book "The Little Psion That Could". :smallwink:

That's also how he got levels in Future Psychic.

Caesar

2013-10-14, 12:56 PM

Anyone else thinks T just did a major mistake by giving Laurin a favor which can be completed at The end of the day? Something like, my favor is for you to be gone from our club. Malack may be a mistake they may not want to repeat

No, not really. A favor is just that, its not carte blanche. She has to think of something that he would consider reasonable and of equal value. Anything else, and he would just balk and tell her to get lost.

Also, telling him to get lost in this way, when he can just say no? That's really playing your hand waaaay to open. Not only would she lose, but Tarquin would know exactly where she stands on him. Nobody stays in T's group on a permanent basis with such poor strategic skills.

konradknox

2013-10-14, 12:57 PM

My two official predictions:

1. Simple Version:

Laurin asks Tarquin to arrange a marriage between her daughter and Elan. I.e. getting rid of Haley.

2. Complex Version:

Laurin is Roy and Julia Greenhilt's aunt, and will ask Tarquin to marry her, to secure Greenhilt family into Tarquin's Legacy, thus guaranteeing their safety. This will make Roy and Elan step-cousins and Elan will be overjoyed to hear that because he loves Roy!

Fish

2013-10-14, 01:03 PM

I know it's a joke, but no way Laurin is Roy's aunt. It is not necessary that every character be related if they have similar skin color.

Since I don't think Tarquin will be killed here at this time, the favor will probably be something nasty and personal, like "stop pretending you're in a story! It's really irritating."

Benthesquid

2013-10-14, 01:06 PM

Eh, my predictions

Most probable
A) Laurin's favor will be called in by the end of this book. (I hold with the theory that the Tarquin storyline will be largely resolved at the climax of this book, although it will play into the continuing development of the characters, especially Elan, which means that all Chekov's guns should have gone off).
B) Said favor will be to Tarquin's detriment, or otherwise frustrate his plans (if it's something that she could convince him to do normally, she wouldn't need to call in a favor)

More of a guess

C) Tarquin will refuse to honor the favor, leading to his betrayal by Miron and Laurin.

Giggling Ghast

2013-10-14, 01:13 PM

Tarquin probably has to take Jacinda to the vet to get her shots. :smalltongue:

PerpetualGM

2013-10-14, 01:22 PM

Just weighing in with my guess...

I think that Laurin's favor will be that Laurin becomes the next Mrs. Tarquin. Then again, I also suspect that Laurin's daughter is Tarquin's by-blow as well and is named Lena. It's just something about the way that Nale refers to her as "Aunt".

Also, I'm predicting that this all ends with Tarquin dead and his illegitimate plumber daughter on the throne of whatever Empire survives. What more ignominious fate for a man like Tarquin is there than to have his grand plans end up in the hand of his offspring...but not the one that he wanted. Instead of a genre-savvy bard, she's a simple plumber and daughter of one of the area's leading interior decorator and knows nothing at all about her father's plans for a grand legacy.

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-14, 01:31 PM

PerpetualGM

2013-10-14, 01:37 PM

It's common for children to refer to family friends as uncles/aunts. We even see it in Start of Darkness with Roy's Uncle Myrtok, who is partially visible here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html).

It is and as I said it's just speculation. However, I saw Nale's reference as being the way a young person would refer to a father's "dates" or future stepmothers. When adventuring parties get that old and well-established the dynamics get sort of odd...like a Joss Whedon series. :)

Ceaon

2013-10-14, 02:47 PM

How about Tarquin has to agree to kill Elan as well as Roy, as to eliminate the only weakness Tarquin has ever shown: his sons?

137beth

2013-10-14, 02:51 PM

Laurin will use her favor to demand more favors!

Forikroder

2013-10-14, 02:54 PM

Anyone else thinks T just did a major mistake by giving Laurin a favor which can be completed at The end of the day? Something like, my favor is for you to be gone from our club. Malack may be a mistake they may not want to repeat
thats a bit much for a favour, its like asking someone to cut ties with everyone they know and leave the country

Purgatorius

2013-10-14, 03:26 PM

What is Laurin looking at when she is talking about her favor?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html panel 7.
Is it the Order on their dinosaur?
Or is it the rift?
And does it help us guess at what she is thinking?

Purgatorius

2013-10-14, 03:30 PM

Tarquin probably has to take Jacinda to the vet to get her shots. :smalltongue:

I don't know why I find this the most plausible suggestion yet. :smallsmile:

Muenster Man

2013-10-14, 03:58 PM

While I'm as clueless as anyone else about Laurin's plan, her expression does seem pretty sinister. Because of that, I doubt she's the token Neutral character of the group (if there even is such a thing).

Matt620

2013-10-14, 04:05 PM

Call me crazy, but I think her favor will involve Miron. Those two actually seem to get along very well, and Laurin might be thinking that, since indulging Nale got Malack killed, indulging Elan might do the same to Miron.

Maybe she, as the cerebral one, thinks Tarquin's adherence to story means he'd care less about Miron, and she leverages a favor to make sure the both of them get out alive.

veti

2013-10-14, 04:29 PM

I don't get the impression that Laurin either likes Tarquin enough to want to get any closer to him, or hates him enough to want him out of her life entirely.

Laurin doesn't look grimly foreboding about her favour. More like, cheerful and maybe mischievous. Which makes me think it's something Tarquin won't much like, but it won't actually be life-changing for either of them.

Forum Explorer

2013-10-14, 04:41 PM

I don't think Laurin is going to get the chance to call in her favor. I don't know how but this is the perfect time for Tarquin to be defeated. Nobody around to witness the battle, no one knows he's in charge, his empire still exists to be defeated at a latter time (perhaps by Ian).

Or after dying and being rezed the favor is to drop it and to leave Roy alone.

stabbybelkar

2013-10-14, 04:46 PM

How about Tarquin has to agree to kill Elan as well as Roy, as to eliminate the only weakness Tarquin has ever shown: his sons?

Agreed. As far as Laurin is concerned, Tarquin's failed attempts at raising Nale are the number one reason that Mallack got killed. She probably wouldn't want him to repeat the same mistake on his other son.

Hague

2013-10-14, 04:47 PM

Uhm... Am I the only one who thought that the favor was fun sexy time?

sengmeng

2013-10-14, 04:53 PM

Uhm... Am I the only one who thought that the favor was fun sexy time?

Nope! She wants the T!

Begs the question of why that would be such an onerous favor on Tarquin's part, though, or why she would have to finagle him to get it.

Taelas

2013-10-14, 04:57 PM

I think it has to do with the scheme -- maybe something Tarquin has been reluctant to sign off on, for "reasons", or simply something she believed Tarquin would be reluctant to OK.

The Zealot

2013-10-14, 05:42 PM

So... just gonna throw a crazy one out there that hit me today.

What if her favor will be for him to off Elan so as to keep from being distracted and/or putting his family before the team again? She hated Nale with a passion and saw the consequences of Tarquin's nepotism.

What if she was to decide it's simply not worth risking it again?

EDIT: Ah, seems I was not the only one with such a thought.

Taelas

2013-10-14, 05:47 PM

If that is indeed her request, then Tarquin will quite simply refuse.

Connington

2013-10-14, 06:21 PM

I honestly have no clue what made multiple people up-thread think that Laurin would be looking to wed Tarquin. Even if there was the slightest hint of attraction between them, she's seen what happens to Mrs. Tarquins.

The first thing that popped into my head was "Now let me kill Elan". That's definitely something that could be done quickly and that she would smirk about, but it's also not something that Tarquin would agree with, and way out of proportion with "help me wipe out this mid-level hero that's bugging me."

Ramien

2013-10-14, 06:23 PM

My two official predictions:

1. Simple Version:

Laurin asks Tarquin to arrange a marriage between her daughter and Elan. I.e. getting rid of Haley.

Wouldn't marrying Elan bring her daughter even more into the middle of all the stuff that Larin is saying she's trying to keep her out of?

For that matter, wouldn't Elan just say No?

ben-zayb

2013-10-14, 06:29 PM

Someone at the discussion thread suggested the Empire of Blood's major offices' restrooms be installed with bidets. That really cracked me up.

Pokonic

2013-10-14, 06:34 PM

Frankly, it could be something as simple as "Dissolve what remains of Malack's little death cult". She seems to be a family women who dearly liked the man, but it's clear that she tries to keep a decent home life as apposed to Tarquin's horrible methods, and it might give her some satisfaction in forcing him to get rid of something that would have been a sort of legacy for himself. Even with what was probably Nergal's main piece on the contenent gone, the entire concept might not have sat well with her, especially with her having what is probably a mid-level Expert as a daughter.

Alternatively, it's for Tarquin to never marry, ever again.:smallbiggrin:

Erth16

2013-10-14, 06:40 PM

I think it could just be that she wants T to stop involving the others in his "Story plot".

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-14, 07:13 PM

Well, here are a few random thoughts that might aid the analysis (or perhaps not):

Since it seems doubtful that a separate story arc will be created for the resolution of Laurin's favor, it's something that needs to be resolved quite fast.
It's underlined too heavily for it to be just "window dressing." After this much buildup, it's got to appear in the comic, IMO.
I doubt that Laurin is going to appear again once the Order is out of the picture. She's a minor character.
They are chasing down the Order right now, so the favor is likely to be something to do with said Order.
We've already seen that Miron and Laurin have no personal interest in killing the Order. So it's not going to be something about wiping them out.
Tarquin already wanted to kill Roy without a favor, so clearly the favor is not "kill Roy."
The only character from the Order Laurin knows is Elan. So it seems likely her favor is related to Elan.
There is only a limited number of possible things that Laurin could want from Elan.
She might want to kill Elan so that he doesn't cause disruption of Business in the future.
She might, as people suggest, want her daughter to marry Elan. This seems unlikely to me, though, for several reasons. For one, doing so would involve Hannah in Empire politics, which Laurin wants to avoid completely. For another, she knows very little of Elan. What does she stand to gain? Pretty much nothing.
She might want Tarquin to disown, imprison, or otherwise inconvenience Elan without actually killing him.

At the moment, killing Elan looks like the most likely explanation. It has a lot of holes in it, but the alternatives appear far more dubious to me.

Just my two cents and the reasons behind them.

Taelas

2013-10-14, 07:28 PM

From where do you get the idea that Laurin knows Elan? :smallconfused: About the only thing we know she knows is that he's Tarquin's son.

Warren Dew

2013-10-14, 07:36 PM

I wonder if Laurin's favor has something to do with filling the now vacant position in Team Tarquin. That would make sense, but it wouldn't fulfill any obvious purpose from a story standpoint.

Kish

2013-10-14, 07:48 PM

I do not think Laurin is going to make a request she knows--or should know--that Tarquin will balk at. Like "Kill your son." Much as I believe she's going to turn out to be just as evil as Tarquin himself or Malack, I don't believe she's stupid. Or that she puts nearly as much weight on Tarquin's son's importance as Tarquin does; it's all the same to her if Elan leaves the continent or dies. If she considers Elan's death important enough to spend this favor on, she recently passed up a golden opportunity to simply comply with Tarquin's request, fly over the Order, and launch some deadly AoE at the entire group. "Oh, oops, Tarkie, how clumsy of me."--no more guaranteed to enrage Tarquin than outright demanding he kill Elan or let him be killed.

Whatever the favor is she's looking for, it's something that matters in terms of Laurin's worldview, which no one in the Order factors into more than extremely peripherally. Something she may, or may not, expect Tarquin to be annoyed by; something she didn't expect him to agree to do out of the goodness of his heart just because she asked. Something she doesn't expect him to balk at; probably something, in her mind, roughly on par with "participate in a fairly easy battle you don't believe anyone in your party should be bothering to participate in."

Ghosty

2013-10-14, 07:51 PM

Bulldog Psion laid out most of the reasons I think her favor will have to do with handling Elan, either by killing him outright or flinging him into the Rift, and using the favor to stay Tarquin's revenge. I don't think she'll ask permission before she kills Elan, because she and we know that Tarq'll say no. Asking forgiveness after she kills/removes/imprisons him is another story. I can easily imagine a near-Epic Psion being able to one-shot Elan w/o too much trouble. She can't permanently kill Elan, because prophecy, yo, but she doesn't know that, and that last dose of diamond dust has been mentioned for a reason...

Also wanted to add that she was there when Elan told off Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0916.html) and said that freeing the Empire of Blood was the next task on Elan's heroic arc. Elan and his party are some of the most capable adventurers in StickWorld. They aren't an existential threat yet, but they easily will be in the future. They probably aren't going to spare Laurin et al when they take down Tarquin either. From Laurin's perspective, why wouldn't you take this opportunity to permanently remove this threat from their business? Especially when dithering and coddling Tarquin's other child ended up permanently killing off one of the major partners in their business?

I easily can see this difference in goals between Miron/Laurin and Tarquin leading to strife between the three of them, and maybe the Order can play divide and conquer to either escape or ensure a detente. Because I'm not hopeful about the Order's chances on paper (but see, plot) against three near-Epic NPCs, two of them casters.

Sylocat

2013-10-14, 08:20 PM

It can't be something regarding the fates of the OOTS, as the only reason she's owing him a favor is because she's helping Tarquin secure the fate that Tarquin wants for them. If her favor was "spare Roy" or "kill Elan" or anything similar, Tarquin could truthfully say that he wouldn't owe her a favor at all, because her end of the bargain wouldn't be met.

At first I thought it was just going to be, "Hold still while I kill you," particularly given that squabble they had while the battle in the crater was going on. But as many pointed out, that makes no sense. They clearly cared deeply about Malack, and Malack and Tarquin were genuine friends, so there's definitely camaraderie.

Maybe Laurin is the one who wants out of the group?

David Argall

2013-10-14, 09:15 PM

Wouldn't marrying Elan bring her daughter even more into the middle of all the stuff that Larin is saying she's trying to keep her out of?
It is not rare, or even unusual, for people to have inconsistent goals. She quite likely has the goals of daughter being far away and safe, and being very close where she can protect her. It is also no stretch to assume she wants daughter married and producing grandchildren, and Elan's record suggests he has made a highly favorable impression on Larin.

For that matter, wouldn't Elan just say No?
How much has that slowed down Tarquin? He has Elan's life all mapped out, and Elan is allowed to like it or lump it, not to change it. Larin will...
Kill Haley so she can't block the marriage. ...Threaten to kill Haley if Elan doesn't marry her daughter. or ...Say "OK, you can marry Haley too. My daughter has ...ah... unusual tastes." The opinion of Elan, or the daughter for that matter, is not to be allowed to have any importance here.

Mike Havran

2013-10-14, 11:07 PM

I get the feeling that the favor involves the desert Rift somehow. Laurin was looking in it's direction when she thought about the favor. Maybe she wants to get the Rift from Tarquin?

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-14, 11:10 PM

From where do you get the idea that Laurin knows Elan? :smallconfused: About the only thing we know she knows is that he's Tarquin's son.

True, but that's a lot more than she knows about any other member of the Order. If one of them holds any interest at all for her, it's apt to be him.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-10-14, 11:29 PM

I think Elan will NOT defeat Tarquin; Roy will, robbing Tarquin of his legendary status.

Roy defeating Tarquin would not rob Tarquin of his legendary status. That would still be a win for him. He thought some random hero would defeat him and he was cool with that; but his son doing it would make a better story, so of course he thinks that is what will happen.

Ramien

2013-10-14, 11:48 PM

Roy defeating Tarquin would not rob Tarquin of his legendary status. That would still be a win for him. He thought some random hero would defeat him and he was cool with that; but his son doing it would make a better story, so of course he thinks that is what will happen.

Tarquin's not thinking along those lines anymore. Otherwise he wouldn't be trying to force Elan into leading the Order. If he was content with just being beat by a random hero anymore, he'd be fine with Roy doing it- a former gladiator turning on the corrupt government that put him there? Great story right there.

But Tarquin's got his mind set on Elan now. There's no second option.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-10-14, 11:52 PM

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-15, 12:06 AM

As I've frequently said, though, dead is dead, and who cares what Tarquin thinks of it as his soul slips away to Baator?

Ramien

2013-10-15, 12:18 AM

As I've frequently said, though, dead is dead, and who cares what Tarquin thinks of it as his soul slips away to Baator?

I'm sure Tarquin cares a very great deal, and so does Elan. Elan 'losing' would be a big blow to his self-image and confidence.

For that matter, maybe there's some fiend down in Baator who's interested in seeing if Tarquin can close the deal on his terms. People that capable are valued on any plane, after all...

davidbofinger

2013-10-15, 12:21 AM

If it's a favour she only just thought up then it's probably something to do with Malack. Like taking over his position.

Otherwise it could be, "I want to leave the gang."

Aquillion

2013-10-15, 12:36 AM

Seriously guys, Team Tarquin has been working together for decades. Everything we've seen indicates that they are very good friends. Why on earth would you think Laurin is going to use her favour to undermine Tarquin? It makes very little sense.Conservation of detail. We were shown the favor, so it must be important; and we know it happens soon. Plus, Tarquin's plot arc feels like it's nearly over, so it's logical to assume that the favor will be something that will remove Tarquin from the story in a permanent-ish fashion.

Taelas

2013-10-15, 12:39 AM

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-15, 01:02 AM

Laurin has been established as unwilling to fight the Order previously. If she were to suddenly be fighting alongside Tarquin in the next comic, i.e. if we didn't see her request a favor of Tarquin in return for her participation, there'd be quite a few people calling shenanigans. That may easily be the only reason we saw that particular scene.

True, but she also says that she'll call it within the next day. In other words, probably about the remaining time that the Order will be in the desert for plot purposes. If it was just a supporting detail that would never be mentioned again, why not just have the conversation go, "I'll come along, but it counts as a major favor." "All right."

Fish

2013-10-15, 01:04 AM

Since Tarquin said, "As long as Greenhilt lives, he will overshadow Elan," I wonder if Elan's secret plan comes into play here.

Elan will pull some narrative rabbit out of the hat and demolish Tarquin — in a figurative, narrative sense. Tarquin sees Elan overshadow* Roy.

Thus: even as Tarquin loses to Elan's secret plot, he recognizes that Elan is not overshadowed, and Roy is allowed to live.

And then Laurin calls in her marker, kicking Tarquin while he's down.

*Unlikely, I know, but there are other ways than sheer combat prowess for Elan to overshadow Roy.

mimhoff

2013-10-15, 01:26 AM

Whatever the favor is she's looking for, it's something that matters in terms of Laurin's worldview, which no one in the Order factors into more than extremely peripherally. Something she may, or may not, expect Tarquin to be annoyed by; something she didn't expect him to agree to do out of the goodness of his heart just because she asked. Something she doesn't expect him to balk at; probably something, in her mind, roughly on par with "participate in a fairly easy battle you don't believe anyone in your party should be bothering to participate in."

Also, if it's anything "business"-related then she could have convinced Tarquin to go along with it by claiming that it's in the empires' interest.

Otherwise, yeah. It's a favour; something a friend asks of another friend, that may be inconvenient but not terrible. Just because they're evil friends doesn't make them any less friends.

factotum

2013-10-15, 02:53 AM

If it's a favour she only just thought up then it's probably something to do with Malack. Like taking over his position.

She's already *in* that position--the members of the Tarquin gang all appear to have equal pre-eminence, and we know they swap around now and again so the scam doesn't become obvious. Burning a favour to get something that Tarquin would probably agree to without one seems a bit pointless!

Souhiro

2013-10-15, 03:35 AM

Koo Rehtorb

2013-10-15, 03:45 AM

It occurs to me that the fact that the favour got mentioned probably indicates that TT isn't going to die in this battle otherwise the setup would have no payoff.

Kornaki

2013-10-15, 05:16 AM

I think that Tarquin has a "Ring of Perfect Mind Shielding" or something, just like Xykon han an "Anti Stealth Attack Ring Even If You're Immune to Them". Tarquin wears such magical item to protects himself from Laurie's psionic powers.

The favor she will ask? "Give me your PerfectMindShielding Ring. Now", and then, she will control him.

This has the same problem a couple other suggestions have that unless Tarquin responds by stabbing her with a sword then everything about his characterization up until this point has been a lie, and it begs the question of how Laurin has gotten to this point when she's that foolish to try this stunt.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-10-15, 05:26 AM

Jeeze seriously the favour isn't going to be some enormous backstab or slap in the face.

It will be something along the lines of "Give me that super powerful relic that I've been wanting for a few years that you've been hogging." (not saying it's that in specific, just on that level of favour).

Something that will make Tarquin sigh and not be particularly happy, but something that's reasonable to ask for.

factotum

2013-10-15, 06:47 AM

Something that will make Tarquin sigh and not be particularly happy, but something that's reasonable to ask for.

That then puts in the situation of having a Chekov's gun that doesn't fire, though. Why would the bit about Laurin saying her favour could be cleared off by the end of the day even be there if it wasn't significant in some way?

Koo Rehtorb

2013-10-15, 06:55 AM

That then puts in the situation of having a Chekov's gun that doesn't fire, though. Why would the bit about Laurin saying her favour could be cleared off by the end of the day even be there if it wasn't significant in some way?

Reasonable is a fairly broad category. The more I think about it the more I expect something along the lines of "Okay we indulged you over your stupid plot obsession. Now you go back to your empire and quit being so over-the-top cartoonishly evil. It's just making problems for all of us."

Souhiro

2013-10-15, 08:06 AM

That then puts in the situation of having a Chekov's gun that doesn't fire, though. Why would the bit about Laurin saying her favour could be cleared off by the end of the day even be there if it wasn't significant in some way?

Man, that could be EXACTLY the same casi with Tarquin's ring of Truevision: There weren't any clues that he had one. And also, it's the same casi about Xykon and his Ring of Protection against Daggers of Backstabbing Undead: those are in fact Deus ex Machinas: They solve a seemly irresolvable problem (Or, in case of the ring of anti-daggers, it would had solved) and there isn't any clue that those things are there.

Before an angry mob tries to linch me, those two items were GOOD cases of deus Ex Machinas, and did indeed open more interesting situations: The last formation of the Linear Guild, and The Very Same Comic of sOotS

== Sorry for my awful english, yo hablo español ==

Brisingry

2013-10-15, 08:14 AM

I guess I'm still the only one who immediately connected this with another huge point of debate on these forums? That being, of course, Tarquin's dagger which may or may not have Nale's blood on it for a resurrection?

My guess is that Laurin wants to have that dagger destroyed as her favor. And that furthermore, it's not going to happen, courtesy of Elan.

Leolo

2013-10-15, 08:19 AM

Maybe the "can be done till the end of the day" is just a red herring?

It could be something like: "Order your troups to conquer the riftworld! You can do it today.", too.

sengmeng

2013-10-15, 08:30 AM

I think that Tarquin has a "Ring of Perfect Mind Shielding" or something, just like Xykon han an "Anti Stealth Attack Ring Even If You're Immune to Them". Tarquin wears such magical item to protects himself from Laurie's psionic powers.

The favor she will ask? "Give me your PerfectMindShielding Ring. Now", and then, she will control him.

Wait, so it actually IS sexy time? She says "all right Tarkie, in bed, now, and I want to get in your head, too, so get that stupid ring off" and then she does some psychic surgery to make him forget Elan exists.

Shred-Bot

2013-10-15, 08:30 AM

Tarquin probably has to take Jacinda to the vet to get her shots. :smalltongue:

Or clean her litter box! :smallbiggrin:

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-15, 08:34 AM

Or clean her litter box! :smallbiggrin:

Now that is a terrifying prospect. :smalleek:

goodyarn

2013-10-15, 09:06 AM

Roy defeating Tarquin would not rob Tarquin of his legendary status. That would still be a win for him. He thought some random hero would defeat him and he was cool with that; but his son doing it would make a better story, so of course he thinks that is what will happen.

Not true. Look at strip #763. He was "cool" with being killed by a random hero, not because he would become a legend, but only because then he could remember that he'd lived like a king for decades. It's only if his son kills him that he gets to be a legend.

And again, I don't think he will get killed. I think he ends the story living in ignominy, which takes away the pleasure of having once been king. Or at least, *I* think that would be a just ending.

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-15, 09:18 AM

Not true. Look at strip #763. He was "cool" with being killed by a random hero, not because he would become a legend, but only because then he could remember that he'd lived like a king for decades. It's only if his son kills him that he gets to be a legend.

And again, I don't think he will get killed. I think he ends the story living in ignominy, which takes away the pleasure of having once been king. Or at least, *I* think that would be a just ending.

That would be a just ending, but it'll be rather difficult to arrange in the next 3 or 4 strips.

terenes

2013-10-15, 09:19 AM

I don't think we will ever know what kind of favor it is. I guess Laurin and Tarquin won't be able to defeat Order, Roy will survive thus Tarquin (even if he will survive) won't have to pay anything.

Shred-Bot

2013-10-15, 09:32 AM

Now that is a terrifying prospect. :smalleek:

Totally worth one of those prized favors, though. And (depending how long it's been since the last cleaning) it probably can be completed in an afternoon!

goodyarn

2013-10-15, 10:47 AM

That would be a just ending, but it'll be rather difficult to arrange in the next 3 or 4 strips.

Then maybe his story isn't over yet. Maybe this time he just loses the battle and the respect of his allies. But he can't let it go, and so he keeps following and re-challenging OOTS for the rest of the adventure, losing more and more status with each encounter. He becomes the new Nale. And really, what's more humiliating than that?

EDIT: Maybe Laurin intends her favor to be that Tarquin will grant her his forgiveness after she kills Elan.

ella ventic

2013-10-15, 11:48 AM

Then maybe his story isn't over yet. Maybe this time he just loses the battle and the respect of his allies. But he can't let it go, and so he keeps following and re-challenging OOTS for the rest of the adventure, losing more and more status with each encounter. He becomes the new Nale. And really, what's more humiliating than that?

Ooh, nice catch equating Tarquin's inability to let this go with Nale's similar personality trait. Hadn't thought of it that way before. (Though I do think it's worth mentioning that when T does let something go, he *really* lets it go. Poor Nale. Salted the earth on that one. ...possibly literally.)

I do think that Laurin's favor will show up in the comic, and that (unless it's a throwaway joke, which is possible) it will undermine Tarquin's plans. And I don't think the undermining will be malicious at all unless it is directly related to Malack's death; they've functioned as a solid team for so long that I find it hard to believe they'd backstab each other. The only thing that could shake the team is something cataclysmic, which Malack's death certainly is--the questions then become 1) whether that shake-up comes immediately (they haven't had a lot of processing time; does Miron even know?) or later, and 2) whether the team is strong enough to survive it.

My guess is that the team could survive it if Tarquin weren't compounding the stress with his completely selfish obsession with Elan. As it is, though, probably not. I think the team falls apart in the moment and never gets the chance to recover as the OOtS will take advantage and decimate the party. (Maybe not a TPK, but an enough-PK.)

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-15, 11:53 AM

Two other random possibilities:

"Join the Order, and help them in their quest. I read the mind of Nale about the Gates, and I don't want the world unmade."

"Tarquin, you're acting like a fool. I'm asking you to retire."

Dante2001

2013-10-15, 11:58 AM

Man, that could be EXACTLY the same casi with Tarquin's ring of Truevision: There weren't any clues that he had one. And also, it's the same casi about Xykon and his Ring of Protection against Daggers of Backstabbing Undead: those are in fact Deus ex Machinas: They solve a seemly irresolvable problem (Or, in case of the ring of anti-daggers, it would had solved) and there isn't any clue that those things are there.

Before an angry mob tries to linch me, those two items were GOOD cases of deus Ex Machinas, and did indeed open more interesting situations: The last formation of the Linear Guild, and The Very Same Comic of sOotS

== Sorry for my awful english, yo hablo español ==

Its a Deus ex machina if you want a comic that goes 100% with the rules, which was said that this comic is not. There's a perfect explanation for the ring and the dagger and if you argue about why does that kind of item exists then we can say that there's no monster in the manual called "Snarl". Minor items and enchantments like that are just to further the plot, not pull an impossible feat. Xykon is smart and right eye wanted him dead. Xykon knew that. Right-eye buys an item that can hurt Xykon at the right time. Xykon already knew that and prepared for that in advance. Thats all you need to know, thats the basis. Furthermore, the dagger effects were invented as so was the counter attack.

Aaaand besides everything. Laurin is T's friend. She may forgive him for a mistake as I'm sure T would for her or any of their team member. They aren't thugs or mooks. They are valuable intelligent assets and you don't discard an asset just because.

David Argall

2013-10-15, 01:09 PM

Remember, this is only a favor. It does not rise to the level of "business". It would require the approval of the other three if it did and that is highly doubtful.
The others are not treating the favor as a big thing. Rather they seen to feel that Tarquin has be treasuring this for a long time, and now he spends it on the right to ride shotgun? Well, his business. And Tarquin too is not assuming the favor will be anything major. He won't like it, but he was hoping to get the favor for free. So even a petty cost is irritating.
And there is a major chance we will never find out what the favor is. The plot needs an excuse for Laurin being in the fight. So Tarquin offers her an undefined favor. We never need to see on camera what it was. We may, but the story does not need to show us.

johnbragg

2013-10-15, 01:18 PM

.
And there is a major chance we will never find out what the favor is. The plot needs an excuse for Laurin being in the fight. So Tarquin offers her an undefined favor. We never need to see on camera what it was. We may, but the story does not need to show us.

I don't think so--conservation of detail. If we're not going to see Laurin collect on the favor, it wouldn't be specified as "by the end of the day". That means Laurin has a specific favor in mind, which she plans to demand after the fight.

Kish

2013-10-15, 01:19 PM

I don't think so--conservation of detail.
"...is overrated," said some guy.

Mind you, I think most likely this favor is something relevant to the comic...but I wouldn't rely too much (read: at all) on conservation of detail to make the case.

sparkyinbozo

2013-10-15, 01:21 PM

I'm a little late to the party, but I wonder if it's something that'll advance the plot through to the next book, like asking Tarquin to support an invasion of dwarven lands.

Given her personality, though, I don't think that specific option seems too likely.

johnbragg

2013-10-15, 01:32 PM

"Conservation of detail..."

"...is overrated," said some guy.

Mind you, I think most likely this favor is something relevant to the comic...but I wouldn't rely too much (read: at all) on conservation of detail to make the case.

I don't think it's overrated in this case. I could easily see Tarquin's whip never surfacing again. But here, unless "by the end of the day" is plot-relevant, it's actually easier to write "You could owe me one, if it means that much to you." and end the speech bubble right there. Or just say "I have a few ideas..." Or a half dozen things that don't scream "Laurin has a Cunning Plan!"

Guancyto

2013-10-15, 01:33 PM

I don't know why I find this the most plausible suggestion yet. :smallsmile:

Yeah.

Honestly I'm guessing the favor will be something mundane, personal, a bit embarrassing, and something that can be easily fit into a last-panel gag.

Like arranging dinosaur rides for a relative's birthday party, or babysitting someone's kids, or covering for a speaking engagement while she goes on a date. These guys are high-level villains, so the best favors are entirely silly.

Things like "retiring" or "shoving T off the conspiracy" require the consensus of the whole team, and are 'serious and enormous political upheaval' territory, way higher than any sort of 'favor.'

johnbragg

2013-10-15, 02:00 PM

Yeah.

Honestly I'm guessing the favor will be something mundane, personal, a bit embarrassing, and something that can be easily fit into a last-panel gag.

Like arranging dinosaur rides for a relative's birthday party, or babysitting someone's kids, or covering for a speaking engagement while she goes on a date. These guys are high-level villains, so the best favors are entirely silly.

Things like "retiring" or "shoving T off the conspiracy" require the consensus of the whole team, and are 'serious and enormous political upheaval' territory, way higher than any sort of 'favor.'

Having Tarquin scare off Hannah's no-good-nik boyfriend? (Of course Laurin could do it, but this way she can swear up and down to HAnnah that _she_ didn't do it.)

TheOtherErnie

2013-10-15, 02:10 PM

Honestly I'm guessing the favor will be something mundane, personal, a bit embarrassing, and something that can be easily fit into a last-panel gag.
Or something that could be a setup for a future strip.

There's an example of Tarquin sitting on a favor for TWELVE YEARS and all he asked of Miron was for help killing some people that were not important to Miron. So I'd say that that level of "favor" is probably what these people mean. Nothing that would be out of character for them otherwise.

Miron seems more shocked at Tarquin finally calling in the favor than by the favor being "Let's go kill some dudes".

NihhusHuotAliro

2013-10-15, 02:57 PM

Laurin's request will be one of the following:

Tarquin, put some sleeves on. Malack, Miron, and I always have our arms covered; Jacinda has a fur coat, and Sholder-pad-guy has a shield; but noooooo. You're too "Stylish" for modesty. I mean, eugh! Nobody wants to see your elbows! There are kids reading this comic, show some modesty!

Tarquin, never, ever bring Hannah into this web of lies and treachery.

Tarquin, stop doing that thing where you gesture with one hand and put the other hand behind your back, or where you talk with both hands behind your back. You think it looks all cool and "oooh, is he getting out a weapon back there? Is he lying and crossing his fingers? Oooh, he always has something up his sleeve" but you know what? It doesn't. We all know that when you do that, you're just scratching your bottom.

Tarquin, let this story arc end so that the story can get out of tan-town. Everyone's sick of the desert palette.

Tarquin, when you invade Reptilia, leave some of the children for me. Their skin is better for making shoes and handbags than the adults.

Tarquin, promise to resurrect me if I die.

Tarquin, promise to resurrect Miron if he dies.

Tarquin, you owe me a new outfit. This sand is just awful for this robe; and my shoes are filled with sand.

Tarquin, send a horde of glass archdemons against Sir Thumb, and I'll summon an Ancient Rusty Nail to lead them. Let's get the job done this time.

Tarquin, spell ICUP.

Tarquin, stop using lady-scented body wash and become an old spice man.

Tarquin, do I have your permission to mess with the mind of your son's lover? I'm thinking... aphasia, yeah, permanent aphasia.

Tarquin, it's your turn to buy a wig for Miron. And no, you can't buy a rainbow-afro.

Tarquin, I don't actually need or want a favor, I just want to mess with the audience's minds. Mmmm, the annoyance, confusion, and guessings of dozens of OOTS fans. It is delicious.

Tarquin, Elan's escaped! Recruit a team of teenagers with attitude!

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-15, 03:14 PM

Tarquin, stop doing that thing where you gesture with one hand and put the other hand behind your back, or where you talk with both hands behind your back. You think it looks all cool and "oooh, is he getting out a weapon back there? Is he lying and crossing his fingers? Oooh, he always has something up his sleeve" but you know what? It doesn't. We all know that when you do that, you're just scratching your bottom.

It's not itchy, it's sore from sitting on a favour for twelve years.

shadowsedge

2013-10-15, 04:47 PM

Uhm... Am I the only one who thought that the favor was fun sexy time?

That was my first thought, too.
But I guess with Tarquins attitude towards sex, she wouldn't need a favor.

Aquillion

2013-10-15, 04:49 PM

Pokonic

2013-10-15, 05:11 PM

"Tarquin, get rid of the Empress and stop your plans for the Empire of Blood early. The name was Malack's idea, anyway."

Warren Dew

2013-10-15, 05:15 PM

Tarquin, let this story arc end so that the story can get out of tan-town. Everyone's sick of the desert palette.
Please let it be this one!

warrl

2013-10-15, 05:17 PM

First, I don't think "You're out of our club" is the favor. When people kick you out of their club, they don't need your consent.

Well, that (and the lack of a group consensus) is WHY she would need his consent.

She can't kick him out of the club - but she can get him to agree to leave.

(If that's what she has in mind. Which I doubt.)

warrl

2013-10-15, 05:23 PM

IW Judicator

2013-10-15, 05:28 PM

"Tarquin, you know that big statue of yourself that you're so proud of? Build a bigger one of Malack. A MUCH bigger one. Without building yourself a bigger one."

Guancyto

2013-10-15, 05:37 PM

"Tarquin, you know that big statue of yourself that you're so proud of? Build a bigger one of Malack. A MUCH bigger one. Without building yourself a bigger one."

Hrm, that would also work out in a small number of panels, several of which could be done with the statue out of frame and vaguely referring to it until the heartwarming(?) reveal. Call this my second guess.

warrl

2013-10-15, 05:49 PM

I understand that, now he's shown up, Tarquin would vastly prefer a final confrontation with Elan, but "...and if I lose, I get to be a legend" applies to Roy also. Tarquin's intentions probably do not include any second option anymore, but if, despite his intentions, Roy defeats Tarquin, the plan that Tarquin set into motion 30 years ago works out in his favor.

It would be a lesser victory but it is still a victory.

Not if there is nobody who both knows what happened and is willing to talk about it. Legends, by definitions, involve people TELLING the stories.

I don't think Elan's plan involves anyone literally defeating Tarquin.

"Did you kill him?" "No. I destroyed him." (http://www.goblinscomic.org/06302009/) (Actually that statement comes a bit later (http://www.goblinscomic.org/08172009/). but the first link is to what it's talking about.)

Aasimar

2013-10-15, 05:57 PM

My guess?

She wants out of 'that thing they do' without any strings attached or hard feelings.

137beth

2013-10-16, 10:36 PM

"Conservation of detail..."

I don't think it's overrated in this case. I could easily see Tarquin's whip never surfacing again. But here, unless "by the end of the day" is plot-relevant, it's actually easier to write "You could owe me one, if it means that much to you." and end the speech bubble right there. Or just say "I have a few ideas..." Or a half dozen things that don't scream "Laurin has a Cunning Plan!"

But if she just said "you could owe me a favor" and it never came up, people would continue speculating for the rest of the series about what it was. By saying it happens before the end of the day, that cuts off the speculation when the in-comic day ends.

johnbragg

2013-10-16, 10:50 PM

But if she just said "you could owe me a favor" and it never came up, people would continue speculating for the rest of the series about what it was. By saying it happens before the end of the day, that cuts off the speculation when the in-comic day ends.

...if the day ends without Laurin and/or Tarquin dead and disintegrated, but the favor not shown, people will speculate until the end of the series and beyond as to what the favor was. If Rich Burlew didn't plan on the favor being called, and didn't want endless speculation, he'd have just made it a favor to be named later.

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-16, 11:42 PM

There was absolutely no need to frame the favor that way if it was not going to have any bearing on the story at all. Just have her say, "Okay, but now you'll owe me a favor." Clear cut, no mystery, end of story.

Instead, we get:

"Although you could owe me one, if this means that much to you. I even have one in mind, so it can be cleared by the end of the day."

What is the purpose of all that unnecessary verbiage if it's something that's not going to be shown, something that has no bearing on the story, or is something mundane or incredibly stupid (like having sex with Tarquin)?

Disregarding the law of conservation of detail is one thing. Making it something so specific, and something that is pretty much going to happen right now, is a pretty big clue it's going to happen onscreen in the comic. IMO, of course.

Souhiro

2013-10-17, 03:12 AM

What about this favors?

"I want a son. With you. NOW!"

or...

"I want you to kiss an orc. In public, without any costume, mask, or anything to conceal your identity"

or maybe...

"You know that Kaka**** guy, don't you? from Naruto. I want to see his face. I want to see him unmasked!

(Which, incidentally, would be EASY (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5219/5489725109_5a01fdc498_z.jpg))

Taelas

2013-10-17, 05:28 AM

She was almost certainly established as unwilling to fight the order in order to cause this scene.

... or to quell any arguments as to "Why aren't Miron and Laurin just attacking the Order along with the army?"

There are other possible explanations.

Rahaii

2013-10-17, 03:50 PM

Signed up so I could post in this topic.

From the expression on Tarquin's face as he reluctantly agrees (the "...Agreed" showed a bit of hesitation, I think) and the speed that Laurin suggests this will be resolved, I think Tarquin already knows exactly what the favor is.

Hence I don't think the favor is going to come as a surprise to him. It's something that he does not like but is willing to concede the point.

From looking at what's there of Team Tarquin, the only ones that looked to be on overly friendly terms (and that was even stressed over Nale) were Tarquin and Malack. Miron and Laurin seem to be rather tired of Tarquin's schemes and only play along to maintain control of the continent. The comradeship of the adventuring team doesn't seem to be there.

My prediction, although I hardly ever get them right:

Laurin wants to be the next Mrs. Tarquin. I think all of his previous wives were pawns in his game, but it's going to be harder for Tarquin to manipulate Laurin and/or off her when she becomes inconvenient. She is well aware of how he operates.

I also think Laurin wants to produce an heir that she can manipulate as well or better than Tarquin can, and also use that heir to manipulate Tarquin as well.

mhsmith

2013-10-17, 04:42 PM

Or something that could be a setup for a future strip.

There's an example of Tarquin sitting on a favor for TWELVE YEARS and all he asked of Miron was for help killing some people that were not important to Miron. So I'd say that that level of "favor" is probably what these people mean. Nothing that would be out of character for them otherwise.

Miron seems more shocked at Tarquin finally calling in the favor than by the favor being "Let's go kill some dudes".

Yeah, it's hard to know what she wants. Giant has talked before about NOT believing in conservation of detail, so it's completely possible that this would be a throwaway line without any real consequences.

My guess?

She wants out of 'that thing they do' without any strings attached or hard feelings.

I'd consider this to at least be plausible.

Matt620

2013-10-17, 06:25 PM

Crazy thought, maybe Laurin doesn't want a favor, maybe she's just doing this for her own reason to get Tarquin to lower his guard.

Instead of opening up her wormhole near the OOtS, she opens it up in the ocean, and Tarquin and the triceratops sink. Laurin and Miron, with their surprisingly unarmored selves, can just stick close and Laurin teleports them back.

Prospekt

2013-10-17, 10:29 PM

Frankly, I don't think what she has planned as a favor is anything that will harm Tarquin or anything like that. Maybe something he finds to be kind of inconvenient, but certainly nothing overly malicious. Just because we've seen them somewhat quarrel over things doesn't mean that they're not friends anymore. Friends argue all the time. And let's not forget how long they've all known each other. Honestly, all this expected betrayal reminds me of this from the Gaming Articles section:

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.

johnbragg

2013-10-18, 10:14 AM

Can we stop? The favor is not Laurin having sexyfuntime with Tarquin, or Tarquin marrying Laurin and starting a family, or Tarquin siring a son with Laurin.

If Laurin wanted the D from Big T, she's had countless opportunities over a quarter-century of adventuring partnership, friendship and empire-building-scheme to make that happen. And from what we've seen of T, that really wouldn't be a favor. (Unless the Giant decides that Tarquin has a rule against out-of-wedlock sexytime.)

Laurin has seen Tarquin in action as a father with Nale, and has observed him at least from a distance as a husband to nine different wives. Why would she want in on that?

martianmister

2013-10-21, 04:29 PM

Can we stop? The favor is not Laurin having sexyfuntime with Tarquin

Maybe she wants a different kind of sexyfuntime, something Tarquin doesn't approve?

AstralFire

2013-10-21, 06:52 PM

Only thing I can think of is Laurin making a power-play for control of the group. ... These suggestions that she wants to sleep with him are um, unsettling.

David Argall

2013-10-22, 12:53 AM

Only thing I can think of is Laurin making a power-play for control of the group. ... These suggestions that she wants to sleep with him are um, unsettling.
I don't see why. We know he is hot looking, and his charisma score is likely quite high too. He just seems to have a preference for the girls that "play hard to get". No great reason Laurin wouldn't take a shine to him. {"He beats up other women? That is their problem. My 300 power points, etc say he will have better manners with me."}
More likely she is looking for a hubby for her daughter the plumber, and Tarquin is reluctant because she looks like one.

Domino Quartz

2013-10-22, 06:08 AM

johnbragg

2013-10-22, 06:23 AM

factotum

2013-10-22, 06:42 AM

That makes a lot more sense than Laurin wanting Tarquin to marry Laurin/sex Laurin up.

Making a lot more sense than zero isn't saying much, though! Why would Laurin want Tarquin to marry her daughter when she's already said that she does "this thing they do" in order to shield her daughter from all that? Quite apart from the massive age difference...

Kish

2013-10-22, 06:49 AM

...and the fact that she's seen how Tarquin treats his wives...

nonamearisto

2013-10-22, 07:50 AM

If marriage is involved in this favor at all, it will probably be Laurin and not her daughter. Laurin has experience dealing with Tarquin and is a very powerful mage herself. I doubt her daughter can say the same.

johnbragg

2013-10-22, 08:10 AM

Making a lot more sense than zero isn't saying much, though! Why would Laurin want Tarquin to marry her daughter when she's already said that she does "this thing they do" in order to shield her daughter from all that? Quite apart from the massive age difference...

Very true. But it was at least a new dumb idea.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-10-22, 08:15 AM

This is a dumb conversation.

AstralFire

2013-10-22, 08:55 AM

I don't see why. We know he is hot looking, and his charisma score is likely quite high too. He just seems to have a preference for the girls that "play hard to get". No great reason Laurin wouldn't take a shine to him. {"He beats up other women? That is their problem. My 300 power points, etc say he will have better manners with me."}
More likely she is looking for a hubby for her daughter the plumber, and Tarquin is reluctant because she looks like one.

Because she is a psion, so she is high Int, and seems to be at least decent Wis.
She knows how Tarquin operates, has had no problem standing up to him, and being his SO tends to cause problems for you.
Because if she was really into Tarquin, I am pretty sure she could have taken advantage of that at some point in the past, Tarquin's easier than a Sunday morning from what we've seen. She wouldn't need a "favor."
She already has a daughter, so she might already have a significant other. This wasn't even mentioned once.

I've placed most other attempts to ship Laurinxsomething as "shippers will be shippers" but this is getting pretty sexist, to assume that a character whose first major speaking roles are largely telling Tarquin off must secretly want to bed him.

Warren Dew

2013-10-22, 12:03 PM

I've placed most other attempts to ship Laurinxsomething as "shippers will be shippers" but this is getting pretty sexist, to assume that a character whose first major speaking roles are largely telling Tarquin off must secretly want to bed him.
Yeah, I guess it is pretty sexist to assume that a character who is known to be highly attractive will be treated as a sex object.

AstralFire

2013-10-22, 12:20 PM

Yeah, I guess it is pretty sexist to assume that a character who is known to be highly attractive will be treated as a sex object.

I assume you were attempting to belittle my argument, but that actually holds up as a criticism as well, since it means that somehow Tarquin's attractiveness outshines everything else he's demonstrated himself to be over years and years.

3WhiteFox3

2013-10-22, 01:03 PM

I assume you were attempting to belittle my argument, but that actually holds up as a criticism as well, since it means that somehow Tarquin's attractiveness outshines everything else he's demonstrated himself to be over years and years.
It doesn't matter that Tarquin's a sexist pig or that mistreats women, he's sexy and charming; so obviously women will just fall all over him. Or want their beloved daughters to marry him.

My crazy theory is that Tarquin is trying to push Hannah into the scheme for whatever reason (Maybe Tarquin is Hannah's father! Dun Dun Dun...); Laurin's request will be for Hannah to be left alone and perhaps to be allowed to freely leave the area.

martianmister

2013-10-22, 05:23 PM

Tarquin's easier than a Sunday morning from what we've seen. She wouldn't need a "favor."

Womanizer =/= Have sex with every woman. Maybe he didn't find her attractive enough.

Porthos

2013-10-22, 06:06 PM

That so many people are jumping on board the "Laurin wants to have sex with Tarquin" bandwagon is just.... sad. :smallsigh: May not be the saddest thing I've seen on this forum, but it's up there.

At least I can understand the "I want out of the ever-shifting three kingdoms" deal, even if I find it WILDLY out of proportion of the favor being granted.

But sexy time? Either for her or for her daughter? Ugh. Just ugh.

Fish

2013-10-22, 06:51 PM

If you presume, barbarously, that the only thing female characters can think about are relationships, there are plenty of favors Laurin could ask of Tarquin:

She wants Hannah to marry Elan.
She wants Hannah to marry Roy.
She wants herself to marry Roy.
And so on.

But I reckon that whatever it is, it plays right into Elan's secret plan.

Kish

2013-10-22, 07:24 PM

...From now until proven otherwise, I will maintain that her favor is for Miron to marry Roy.

NihhusHuotAliro

2013-10-22, 08:41 PM

martianmister

2013-10-22, 08:53 PM

If you presume, barbarously, that the only thing female characters can think about are relationships...

That so many people are jumping on board the "Laurin wants to have sex with Tarquin" bandwagon is just.... sad. :smallsigh: May not be the saddest thing I've seen on this forum, but it's up there

Talk about strawmanning. :smallsigh: I'm done with this thread...

Mbarbs

2013-10-22, 09:52 PM

I think that the key things about the favor are -

- It's an actual favor; if it was something that Tarquin would do without hesitation regardless, Laurin wouldn't really need to call in a favor to make it happen.
- It's a favor, not an unbreakable blood oath. Tarquin probably isn't going to do anything suicidal or career-ruining, something that undermines everything he's worked for, or something that places him deeply under Laurin's control, at least not something that obviously has such results.
- The favor got enough setup that it's probably going to be something of at least some consequence.
- "Help me fight the OotS" is considered a big enough favor that Tarquin called in a favor he's been sitting on for twelve years to get Miron on board; Laurin's return favor could presumably be fairly hefty.

The things that make the most sense to me are things on the scale of replacing Malack with a particular substitute or various political favors - things that Tarquin would be willing to do, but not enthusiastic to do.

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-22, 10:20 PM

Koo Rehtorb

2013-10-22, 11:56 PM

Political favour sounds plausible. Replacing Malack sounds like a team decision though.

Eb Oesch

2013-10-23, 12:06 AM

My roundabout guess...

The stickverse is not kind to rationalizers -- think Miko and Vaarsuvius. Laurin is a rationalizer. She thinks her allies work in one world while her family can exist in another, but it's all the same world. Her allies' evil affects countless regular people.

Puppetmaster Tarquin, meanwhile, knows how many people his schemes affect, but he mistakenly believes he can control the repercussions of a thousand schemes at once. (He may even have been right until he recently lost the plot so completely -- and with it, his source of strength.)

Neither Laurin nor Tarquin anticipates or wants the blowup that will be precipitated when Laurin tries to cash in her favor -- and apart from involving family, I can't guess what it will be -- but eventually, in a related way, they'll end up punishing each other. Laurin's family will suffer (or already has suffered) harm from Tarquin's scheming, and even if Laurin fails to kill Tarquin, she won't be there when his life depends on it.

Gift Jeraff

2013-10-23, 12:31 AM

"Allow me to use your men already deployed here as test subjects for the Rift." She needs her slave burning/1000 sacrifices per day moment, after all.

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 06:48 AM

That's a good one, Jeraff. Advances the story.

Kish

2013-10-23, 07:01 AM

I kind of doubt that's going to be it because, well, I don't see why calling in a favor would be necessary for it. "It's in the party's interests for me to learn about the Rift. You don't need all these insects you've already put next to it, do you?" "Not at all."

Shale

2013-10-23, 07:35 AM

I'd say she may have asked politely and been vetoed, except we'd almost certainly have seen it happen; there hasn't been a break since she and Tarquin first laid eyes on the rift.

GigaGuess

2013-10-23, 11:16 AM

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 11:22 AM

I dunno, the more I read, the more I think "Kill Elan" is the favor. Nale has proven how much a liability his children are, and I can very, VERY easily see Laurin interpreting Elan as Nale 2.0. Nale killed Malack, and Elan is threatening to blow their cushy little system to kingdom come. He is a variable that I don't see Laurin appreciating at all, ESPECIALLY with Tarquin indulging it for his fetish for narrative.

This is (and has long been) my private vote. It depends on how poor a judge of Tarquin's character that Laurin is.

Dwy

2013-10-23, 11:25 AM

I dunno, the more I read, the more I think "Kill Elan" is the favor. Nale has proven how much a liability his children are, and I can very, VERY easily see Laurin interpreting Elan as Nale 2.0. Nale killed Malack, and Elan is threatening to blow their cushy little system to kingdom come. He is a variable that I don't see Laurin appreciating at all, ESPECIALLY with Tarquin indulging it for his fetish for narrative.

That kind of test of loyalty is about 100% likely to backfire, either by forcing T to kill you instead, or by having him kill your own children soon enough, just to even out the score. Laurin may or may not be wise enough to recognize that.

GigaGuess

2013-10-23, 12:06 PM

That kind of test of loyalty is about 100% likely to backfire, either by forcing T to kill you instead, or by having him kill your own children soon enough, just to even out the score. Laurin may or may not be wise enough to recognize that.

I see two things here.

1.) He's been planning the "Father/son confrontation" for some time, and could see it as stepping up the schedule a bit, but still being workable, or...

2.) Laurin could just be assuming he's willing to do the above, and failing miserably on trying to take advantage of his ranks in "Knowledge (Fourth Wall)"

At any rate that seems to be the biggest thing that can be achieved by the day's end. That would cause that malicious look in her eyes, anyways.

Inst

2013-10-23, 12:17 PM

My wager is that the favor is going to be "leave Elan's party alone". Because, honestly, Laurin can see what Tarkin is doing, and as a friend, she knows that what Tarkin is doing to his family is somewhere between dumb and crazy. He already failed as a father once to Nale, ultimately losing his best friend and having to kill his son, and now he's trying to **** up poor Elan in an attempt to fulfil his twisted concept of reality.

A key distinguishing element of Tarquin's adventuring party is that they seem to be the reasonable type. If Laurin puts it up as a "take it or leave it" offer, Tarquin might see reason and poor Elan could finally have something resembling a happy ending to this story arc.

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 12:23 PM

I think that's a little bit too understanding and reasonable for people who run a brutal shell game with national politics. She may care about Tarquin as a friend (and we have no indication that they're near as close as Tarquin and Malack), but it's not a profession that lends itself to 'I respect you to make the right choice' tough love.

Dwy

2013-10-23, 12:33 PM

"Reasonable" seems key to me in the party interactions of the Tarquinettes.

That said, she might go for "kill Elan", but with a way out, making it less of ultimatum. Say like: "Or I'm packing my stuff and leaving the con game before your sons claim another victim. Yoyr legacy just doesn't cut it as a motivation for me at this point"

AstralFire

2013-10-23, 12:39 PM

David Argall

2013-10-23, 12:51 PM

a favor is highly likely to be a personal benefit. A marriage [or just sex] can be deemed so, but what does she get from killing Elan? His death may be good team policy, but that falls under business. Why would she personally care?

Dwy

2013-10-23, 12:59 PM

Personally she'd face a lower risk that Tarquin sabotages the plan by setting up a hero to end it, and thus a higher chance of getting to continue, and probabøy having Hannah set up for life as a breaking bad-esque personal end game.

I'm not quite convinced though. Any thoughts?

IW Judicator

2013-10-23, 01:00 PM

Maybe she just wants the recipe Elan's Mother's super special top secret extra good muffins of deliciousness that he mentioned in passing that one time. (Totally not canon)

Inst

2013-10-26, 02:57 PM

It's efficient, though, and TBH, Elan deserves a break sooner than later. He's had his heart torn out by discovering that his father is an insane psychopath warlord, watching his father kill his brother for trying to be his own man, and finding out that his girlfriend's dad is an insurgent against his own dad's regime.

Why can't Elan just have a happy ending once in a while? This entire story arc is so complicated it is begging for a Deus Ex Machina.

warrl

2013-10-26, 04:58 PM

A few of the favors discussed, and my thoughts:

Sex/Marriage (for her): I SO don't see it as being on the same scale, and I suspect Tarquin would be more enthusiastic than her. Marriage would be really complex because they are "advisors" in different kingdoms and are often "at war" against each other.

Sex/Marriage (for Hannah): She wants to keep her daughter OUT of the political scheming. Marrying her to Tarquin, Elan who is Tarquin's chosen Big Hero, or Roy who is the real Big Hero, would drag her INTO the scheming. Nope, this ain't it.

Kill Elan: She's a psion. She knows what goes on in people's heads. She is quite unlikely to think that Tarquin would go along with this. Plus, she could disrupt Tarquin's plan to elevate Elan to Big Hero, by NOT pursuing Elan.

Let Elan & Company go: She could have achieved that simply by NOT joining the pursuit. So probably not it.

Bulldog Psion

2013-10-26, 05:27 PM

Havokca

2013-10-26, 08:25 PM

Hmmm…. what if it really is to kill Elan… sort of?:

Things get positioned in such a way that Roy can't be killed without going through Elan, meanwhile, Haley and V are tearing into Miron and Laurin.

Laurin then says something to the effect of: "Tarquin, you tried and it has come to this. You can't go any further right now towards fulfilling your plans for your son without killing him… and we can't stay here without dying. So you either kill your son or we all leave, and you promise that you'll never again risk everything that we've worked towards just so that you can turn your prodigy into your own perfect little nemesis.

bleh… even that one is horrid, since the majority of that would fall under a tactical decision that Tarquin would likely make on his own, if such a hypothetical positioning came to pass anyway…

David Argall

2013-10-27, 02:14 AM

Sex/Marriage (for Hannah): She wants to keep her daughter OUT of the political scheming. Marrying her to Tarquin, Elan who is Tarquin's chosen Big Hero, or Roy who is the real Big Hero, would drag her INTO the scheming. Nope, this ain't it.

Just about any real set of desires produces contradictions. We have no reason to think this is an exception. Laurin is very likely to want her daughter married, and Elan is highly likely to impress her favorably. Indeed, his opposition to his paw might be deemed a step away from politics. Better keep this one on the table.

Liliet

2013-10-28, 02:18 AM

Maybe she just wants the recipe Elan's Mother's super special top secret extra good muffins of deliciousness that he mentioned in passing that one time. (Totally not canon)

The most reasonable proposition yet.

She might also want T to attend a party.
To give or lend her an artifact that she long wanted but he kept to himself.
To hire her daughter for the royal palace.
To try on a silly outfit that she had made for him.
To grant her empire some minor political favor.

And I, like many, am really repulsed by "sex/marriage" options and how many people think that's it.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-10-28, 03:26 AM

I don't find it repulsive to suspect that an unspecified favor asked of an adult might be sex-related, regardless of the gender of the person doing the asking. That topic is pretty high on the list of things that are important to most humans.

I think that suspicion is obviously wrong for these specific humans, though. As noted, Tarquin wouldn't be a hard sell (I really like the phrase "easier than a Sunday morning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16266474&postcount=127)"), and anyway I don't think that would be worthy of a once-in-a-decade sort of favor. Given their respective positions, political motivation seems likely.

oppyu

2013-10-28, 04:31 AM

"She wants to sleep with Tarquin" - Ok, seriously? First it's 'Laurin and Malack are a couple, look, she's sad that he's dead!' Then 'Laurin and Miron are a couple, look, she's annoyed that he was shot by an arrow!' Now we have 'Laurin wants to sleep with Tarquin, look, he's a man with high charisma and she's a woman who currently lacks an on-screen love interest!' Until we have the slightest piece of real evidence that she wants to sleep with Tarquin, no. Just no. Despite what shippers think, it IS possible for a female character to exist in media without being attached romantically to a more important male character, despite what Haley, Therkla, Samantha, Miko, Celia, Jenny, Hilgya, Sabine, Tsukiko, Lirian or Amun-Zora would have you think.

"She wants her daughter to marry Tarquin/Tarquin's son" - Doubt it, she wants to keep her kid away from the crazy main plots. Not be drawn into them. Female characters can ALSO talk about things that don't involve family, relationships or marriage. Next thing you know they'll be leaving the kitchen.

"She wants Tarquin to kill Elan" - Ehh... I could see why she would want that. But I don't see why she'd expect Tarquin to ever agree to that. She has a child herself that she seems to care about, so it's not like she's an evil robot wondering 'what is love?'.

"She wants Elan and Co. to escape" - Gee, blasting Haley and assisting Miron in polymorphing Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator were poor choices then.

"It has to be on-screen, because conservation of detail." - Not necessarily true; have we seen Redcloak's niece yet? What's the Oracle done since being revived? If he has no narrative purpose, why show him being resurrected?

Mike Havran

2013-10-28, 05:28 AM

"It has to be on-screen, because conservation of detail." - Not necessarily true; have we seen Redcloak's niece yet? What's the Oracle done since being revived? If he has no narrative purpose, why show him being resurrected?The Oracle needed to be resurrected to tell us that Belkar will kick the bucket for good in a few in-comic weeks. So we can busy ourselves with pointless speculations for many years to come :smalltongue:

Redcloak's niece wasn't on-screen, she was in print-only books and probably won't appear again without sufficient explanation.

oppyu

2013-10-28, 06:12 AM

The Oracle needed to be resurrected to tell us that Belkar will kick the bucket for good in a few in-comic weeks. So we can busy ourselves with pointless speculations for many years to come :smalltongue:

Redcloak's niece wasn't on-screen, she was in print-only books and probably won't appear again without sufficient explanation.
-_-. Sometimes my brain doesn't brain and makes bad brain. I stand behind my point, even if the examples were terrible.

factotum

2013-10-28, 08:04 AM

it IS possible for a female character to exist in media without being attached romantically to a more important male character, despite what Haley, Therkla, Samantha, Miko, Celia, Jenny, Hilgya, Sabine, Tsukiko, Lirian or Amun-Zora would have you think.

While I agree with your general point, I'm a bit puzzled about this. With the possible exceptions of Celia and Jenny, how are any of those characters attached romantically to a "more important" male character? Even if you take the main one you mentioned, Haley being romantically attached to Elan does not somehow make him a more important character, nor does it make her a less important one.

oppyu

2013-10-28, 08:22 AM

While I agree with your general point, I'm a bit puzzled about this. With the possible exceptions of Celia and Jenny, how are any of those characters attached romantically to a "more important" male character? Even if you take the main one you mentioned, Haley being romantically attached to Elan does not somehow make him a more important character, nor does it make her a less important one.
Romantically attached doesn't necessarily mean 'they're in a happy and mutual relationship' (at least, when I use it in this very specific context). At this point, I'm using it to mean 'at some point there was clear romantic or lustful interest from at least one side on-panel'. More love interest than romantic attachment.

Elan/Haley (Elan's deuteragonist, Haley's more of a tritagonist)
Elan/Therkla
Elan/Samantha
Roy/Miko
Roy/Celia
Belkar/Jenny
Durkon/Hilgya
Nale/Sabine
Xykon/Tsukiko
Tarquin/Amun-Zora
Soon Kim/Lirian

The point being that due to a number of factors (more men than women in media, men given more in-universe and narrative importance, a tendency to view women as being relationship objects), female characters will find themselves disproportionately romantically linked to male characters with more narrative importance, and that consumers pick up on this trend and then speculate, because they've seen it a hundred times before, that any non-love interest women will soon find themselves a nice male character to romance. And because consumers are speculating and expecting it, media will continue to perpetuate it, since all the bad things in the world are vicious cycles.

AstralFire

2013-10-28, 08:35 AM

To put oppyu's observation another way: outside of crack pairings (which are made for the point of being bizarre), could or did you see anyone suggesting that Redcloak was tsundere for Tsukiko, prior to her murder? It would have made just as much sense, especially if you only have the web comic to go by, not SoD.

Coat

2013-10-28, 08:46 AM

it IS possible for a female character to exist in media without being attached romantically to a more important male character, despite what Haley, Therkla, Samantha, Miko, Celia, Jenny, Hilgya, Sabine, Tsukiko, Lirian or Amun-Zora would have you think.

Elan is more important than Haley?! Haley's second in command. Elan's a clown. He's barely more important than his own hand puppet.

The rest are side characters introduced to illustrate important points about how key characters respond to relationships. So they will always be, of necessity, less important than the relationshipee. Because the majority of the protagonists are male, and not sexually orientated towards their own gender, they're female.

Rich is on record for agreeing that the gender bias of the cast of the Order is unfortunate, but a bit late to change at this point. He has also explained his reasons for avoiding same gender relationships - he doesn't feel he could do justice to them.

Also, no way is Lirian less important than Dorukan. And please do not overlook Varsuvius in these comments. And the comment about Sabine being less important than Nale may or may not be proved correct.

On topic, worth noting the facial expressions in 924. Laurin's grin is cheeky, possibly even mischievous. Tarquin is annoyed. I'd wager high odds he knows, or can guess, what the favour is - and agreed, it's almost certainly personal rather than business.

Similarly, this is for a favour equal in value to one Tarquin's been sitting on for 12 years. This isn't small change. You don't play a favour like that the same day you get it unless you're fiscally incontinent - and there's no evidence this is the case for Laurin - or unless it's something you've been wanting for years.

Kill Elan/leave the team - none of these work for reasons outlined previously. Sexyfuntime, even if the Giant was that crass, which he is not, is simply not valuable enough. Ditto more or less anything to do with Hannah - the level of power they're at, anything up to and including setting Hannah up in her own small kingdom probably counts as pocket change.

So - it's something fun for Laurin, annoying for Tarquin. Something valuable. Something that requires the resources of a high level/low epic character to achieve. It's something that Laurin has been planning or had her mind on for at least a few years.

I would guess it's something to do with something in Laurin's past: possibly, dealing with a Psi-immune enemy of some kind that Laurin has a grudge with, but is not capable of tackling alone. It's dangerous, and there's no profit for the team in it, so Tarquin wasn't willing to help before.

Either that, or it's time to give Shoulderpad Dude his once-per-decade bath, and Laurin wants to trade her place on the roster.

Liliet

2013-10-28, 09:53 AM

I don't find it repulsive to suspect that an unspecified favor asked of an adult might be sex-related, regardless of the gender of the person doing the asking. That topic is pretty high on the list of things that are important to most humans.
It's repulsive in context. Not the idea itself, but how many people are convinced that it's true just because T has high Charisma. Seriously, Haley has high Charisma too, and I have yet to see speculation that any male character really wants to sex her.

Elan is more important than Haley?! Haley's second in command. Elan's a clown. He's barely more important than his own hand puppet.
Elan has gotten a lot of screentime. For Haley's aphasia subplot Elan had Cliffport adventure, for Haley's Azure city -> Greysky city time Elan had orcs, Therkla and Kubota, and then for Haley's dad whose narrative role aside from being a McGuffin for her was limited to providing exposition to Roy (more as a window dressing because we had the same info from Tarquin) - for Ian Starshine we have Tarquin, who's the second most major villain after Xykon and succeeded him in achievement of killing one of the protagonists. This whole book has been about Elan's and Haley's family issues, and I hope it's obvious that Elan's problems have been WAY more plot-critical.

And, of course, we have had Nale as a recurring character ever since double-digits strips, and he's Elan's twin.

The rest are side characters introduced to illustrate important points about how key characters respond to relationships. So they will always be, of necessity, less important than the relationshipee. Because the majority of the protagonists are male, and not sexually orientated towards their own gender, they're female.

Rich is on record for agreeing that the gender bias of the cast of the Order is unfortunate, but a bit late to change at this point. He has also explained his reasons for avoiding same gender relationships - he doesn't feel he could do justice to them.
That's true.

Also, no way is Lirian less important than Dorukan.
True, she is not, but notice that Order of the Scribble had the same gender bias as OotS, with two girls and four guys. And Kraagor, a male character, is the only one that we don't have any info on romantic relationships for.

And please do not overlook Varsuvius in these comments.
If V is a girl, then it's true - while ve does have a romantic relationship, it's with a much less important character. However, it's still a case of "every girl gets a guy"... and I suspect that V is male, erm, rather, I'd prefer V to be male.

And the comment about Sabine being less important than Nale may or may not be proved correct.
While she might yet get more screentime than him, her narrative role has so far been limited to "Nale's girlfriend". Even her work for IFCC consisted of, well, being his girlfriend.

On topic, worth noting the facial expressions in 924. Laurin's grin is cheeky, possibly even mischievous. Tarquin is annoyed. I'd wager high odds he knows, or can guess, what the favour is - and agreed, it's almost certainly personal rather than business.
I guess Laurin wouldn't need a favor for business, would she?

By the way, it's interesting how distinctively different dynamics of the Evil team are from dynamics of the Good team. When Roy needed help to rescue his sister, he didn't ask for favors, and neither did Haley when she wanted her dad free. They just said what they wanted, and other team members did it, without counting who owes whom.

Similarly, this is for a favour equal in value to one Tarquin's been sitting on for 12 years. This isn't small change. You don't play a favour like that the same day you get it unless you're fiscally incontinent - and there's no evidence this is the case for Laurin - or unless it's something you've been wanting for years.
I don't think that sitting on the favor for 12 years is norm. Tarquin's just that much of a planner, and he didn't ask Miron for anything because he didn't need anything. To me Laurin's remark sounded more like "I thought you had forgotten about that!" than "Wow, it's that important for you!"

Kill Elan/leave the team - none of these work for reasons outlined previously. Sexyfuntime, even if the Giant was that crass, which he is not, is simply not valuable enough. Ditto more or less anything to do with Hannah - the level of power they're at, anything up to and including setting Hannah up in her own small kingdom probably counts as pocket change.
Perhaps she wants milder laws and more benevolent court system to keep her daughter and her social circle safe and sound without making her personal protection obvious? This is a major societal change for a personal reason, this could be quite a good favor. On the other hand, it doesn't justify her mischievous expression, so it's more likely to be something like "you DO wear that ridiculous outfit I bought for you around the palace for at least one day".

So - it's something fun for Laurin, annoying for Tarquin. Something valuable. Something that requires the resources of a high level/low epic character to achieve. It's something that Laurin has been planning or had her mind on for at least a few years.

I would guess it's something to do with something in Laurin's past: possibly, dealing with a Psi-immune enemy of some kind that Laurin has a grudge with, but is not capable of tackling alone. It's dangerous, and there's no profit for the team in it, so Tarquin wasn't willing to help before.

Either that, or it's time to give Shoulderpad Dude his once-per-decade bath, and Laurin wants to trade her place on the roster.
I think that "fun for Laurin" and "valuable" are hardly compatible... well, I'm not sure about that one, really.

Kornaki

2013-10-28, 10:19 AM

By the way, it's interesting how distinctively different dynamics of the Evil team are from dynamics of the Good team. When Roy needed help to rescue his sister, he didn't ask for favors, and neither did Haley when she wanted her dad free. They just said what they wanted, and other team members did it, without counting who owes whom.

You're right, nobody has ever needed to make promises about poorly guarded ogre kings bedecked in jewels to get teammates to come along.

Liliet

2013-10-28, 10:31 AM

You're right, nobody has ever needed to make promises about poorly guarded ogre kings bedecked in jewels to get teammates to come along.

That was early on, and Roy didn't ask for any favors that he'll repay later. He lied, but the thought of bargain didn't cross his mind. I'm not saying Good is all rainbows and puppies, I'm saying that they approach the relationships differently.

AstralFire

2013-10-28, 10:33 AM

That was early on, and Roy didn't ask for any favors that he'll repay later. He lied, but the thought of bargain didn't cross his mind. I'm not saying Good is all rainbows and puppies, I'm saying that they approach the relationships differently.

Yes, but from the standpoint of his party (and I think objectively, too) Tarquin is being petty. If Tarquin needed help for something important, I don't think we've seen any indication that his party wouldn't assist. We saw how pissed Laurin got - that was more along the lines of "my friend was murdered" than "I lost a valuable resource."

On an interpersonal level, TT's alignment hasn't really played in much, which is a big part of the point of Tarquin - people who act perfectly normal and humane to one another are still capable of amazing acts of cruelty outside of their sphere, and not necessarily for a zealot's burning drive, but simply because it's how they do business. The banality of evil. Tarquin is the Lawful Evil that underscores the evil rather than being Emo Knight.

Coat

2013-10-28, 10:37 AM

Elan has gotten a lot of screentime.

He has. Does that make him important?

The implication of the 'important' observation is that females are defined by their relationships with more powerful and capable male partners. There's a million ways to look at who's most important in a text - I think the point here is that Haley is very capable, and is not defined by her relationship with Elan.

In fact, there's strong case to make that Haley's relationship with Elan is important because of what it tells us about Haley, not about Elan - she is the 'important' one in this relationship.

True, she is not, but notice that Order of the Scribble had the same gender bias as OotS, with two girls and four guys. And Kraagor, a male character, is the only one that we don't have any info on romantic relationships for.

The OotS doesn't have 4 guys and two gals. It has 4 guys, 1 gal, and one undefined.

We don't know anything about the romantic preferences of Girard, other than that he had some children, for business reasons. We know next to nothing about the romantic preferences of Serini.

If V is a girl, then it's true - while ve does have a romantic relationship, it's with a much less important character. However, it's still a case of "every girl gets a guy"... and I suspect that V is male, erm, rather, I'd prefer V to be male.

The statement made by V is that gender is irrelevant - at least, outside of a romantic relationship. That a character is defined by who they are and what they do, not by their reproductive organs.

To my mind, this is a much stronger statement than any one individual being shown as a capable person.

Also, the gender of Andyrius is not clearly shown, and their children are clearly adopted. So it's still not necessarily a case of every girl getting a guy.

While she might yet get more screentime than him, her narrative role has so far been limited to "Nale's girlfriend". Even her work for IFCC consisted of, well, being his girlfriend.

So far, yes. Nale is no longer with us, and there's at least a good chance he's not coming back. Sabine, however, is still in the game.

I guess Laurin wouldn't need a favor for business, would she?

By the way, it's interesting how distinctively different dynamics of the Evil team are from dynamics of the Good team. When Roy needed help to rescue his sister, he didn't ask for favors, and neither did Haley when she wanted her dad free. They just said what they wanted, and other team members did it, without counting who owes whom.

Agreed -good observation.

I don't think that sitting on the favor for 12 years is norm. Tarquin's just that much of a planner, and he didn't ask Miron for anything because he didn't need anything. To me Laurin's remark sounded more like "I thought you had forgotten about that!" than "Wow, it's that important for you!"

Yeah, but even if it was a little thing initially, after 12 years, you're hardly going to trade it for a cup of tea. Just the fact that it's been on the books that long means it's going to have a significant value.

The Giant's made it clear that Team Triceratops don't help each other out just because. I definitely read Laurin as surprised he's calling it in, not that he remembers it. And once it's been established that this is a big favour for Miron, it has the same value for Laurin.

When you're in a team that trades favours rather than just asks for help, if you have a chance to pick up a tag that size, you hold it against the day you'll need it. You don't blow it straight away unless you've got a real prize in mind.

Perhaps she wants milder laws and more benevolent court system to keep her daughter and her social circle safe and sound without making her personal protection obvious? This is a major societal change for a personal reason, this could be quite a good favor. On the other hand, it doesn't justify her mischievous expression, so it's more likely to be something like "you DO wear that ridiculous outfit I bought for you around the palace for at least one day".

The social change one is definitely big enough. But not mischievous as you say, and doesn't really seem to fit with Laurin's character.

The outfit one - well, let's just say that it would have to be a REALLY bad outfit.

I think that "fun for Laurin" and "valuable" are hardly compatible... well, I'm not sure about that one, really.

I assume that you're not a lvl 17+ Psion :).

What counts as fun when you have years of adventuring experience and can literally reshape the universe with your thoughts may be different to what counts as fun if you can't.

Or, to put it another way, Laurin would probably look with utter horror at the idea of sliding down a mountain on a piece of wood without fly or healing spells on hand, and when a collision can deal the equivalent of 20d6 damage.

AstralFire

2013-10-28, 10:56 AM

He has. Does that make him important?

The implication of the 'important' observation is that females are defined by their relationships with more powerful and capable male partners. There's a million ways to look at who's most important in a text - I think the point here is that Haley is very capable, and is not defined by her relationship with Elan.

In fact, there's strong case to make that Haley's relationship with Elan is important because of what it tells us about Haley, not about Elan - she is the 'important' one in this relationship.

1) I think you're getting sidetracked by an admonishment not to reduce Haley into less importance in the first place.
2) Elan is arguably more story and world important than Haley. I prefer to see them as equal world-wise, but story-wise, Elan's more a contender with *Roy* for importance than Haley is with Elan.

Haley's individual actions were of little importance prior to the fall of Azure City. They became very important afterwards when she became the leader of the resistance. Her family is not the major mover of the plot at the moment. Elan's individual actions were of little importance until he broke out of jail, and he was pretty useless for the most part during the flight from Azure City. He's been very pivotal in this entire continent.

His relationships with Roy, Nale and Tarquin have driven almost every major plot of the Order with the exception of Xykon himself, and he has not been a passive recipient of those attentions for more than half the strip now.

Fish

2013-10-28, 11:14 AM

Forget "importance." It is an unnecessary distinction. The narrative convention is that female characters are almost always defined by their relationships, and very few female characters are permitted to exist without one. It is a clear bias and it's quite an annoying double standard in literature at large. (Rich is better than average, but this is a culturally pervasive concept and the comic is not immune. We humans like telling stories about romance.) Laurin is perfectly capable of being a successful character without being attached to a relationship. That, I think, is the point being made, not "who is more important."

That being said, it still doesn't rule out the possibility that this is what Rich has in mind for Laurin's favor, though I personally doubt it.

Xelbiuj

2013-10-28, 12:00 PM

I'm imaging Tarquin to be like Barney from How I met Your Mother.
Every time his close friends asks what he does he just brushes it off, "phshhh"

Her favor could be, "Okay seriously, what is your class?!"

Also, lol@the weak sexism itt

David Argall

2013-10-28, 12:44 PM

Forget "importance." It is an unnecessary distinction. The narrative convention is that female characters are almost always defined by their relationships, and very few female characters are permitted to exist without one. It is a clear bias
Actually the bias is heavily in the opposite direction. Relationships are the reason there are ladies in the story in the first place. It is not a matter of the girls being restricted. They are put into stories where there would be no females at all because of the idea this relationship makes the story more attractive.

Fish

2013-10-28, 01:01 PM

Cart, horse; horse, cart. Either way, the female characters are often used as an accessory attachment for a male character.

Liliet

2013-10-28, 03:29 PM

About female characters - exactly this. V may be making a point that gender is irrelevant (and be my favorite character for it), but so long as there is not a single important girl without a romantic relationship as a big part of her character and narrative role, it doesn't help much.

Important female characters without romantic relationships... well, we have Lien. She has been shipped with Hinjo by Elan, but I think we can let it slide so long as it's just Elan being Elan. Anyone else?

There's Mother Black Dragon, but she's defined by her son which isn't really much better.

...

Anyone?

Kish

2013-10-28, 03:30 PM

Laurin. For now.

And Lien has a boyfriend, though since he's never appeared on-panel she might be considered a grey area.

Xelbiuj

2013-10-28, 04:00 PM

About female characters - exactly this. V may be making a point that gender is irrelevant (and be my favorite character for it), but so long as there is not a single important girl without a romantic relationship as a big part of her character and narrative role, it doesn't help much.

Important female characters without romantic relationships... well, we have Lien. She has been shipped with Hinjo by Elan, but I think we can let it slide so long as it's just Elan being Elam. Anyone else?

There's Mother Black Dragon, but she's defined by her son which isn't really much better.

...

Anyone?

Why is it a big deal that they don't have a relationship? Are you really complaining that Rich isn't representing the asexual female crowd?

A better metric is where their personal relationships haven't played a major roll, Lien, Tsukiko, Miko . . .

oppyu

2013-10-28, 04:11 PM

Why is it a big deal that they don't have a relationship? Are you really complaining that Rich isn't representing the asexual female crowd?

A better metric is where their personal relationships haven't played a major roll, Lien, Tsukiko, Miko . . .
Please, the defining aspect of Tsukiko's personality is that she screws the undead, and is going after the big bad undead for the next notch in her necrophiliac belt. Miko spent her first twenty or thirty appearances frowning as Roy diminished her with terms like 'honey', 'baby', and 'I'm a sexist jerk, please date me'. The Roy and Miko thing was so bad, people thought it was an improvement when he turned to reverse slut shaming with the "You're a bitch because you're not having sex enough, but no man would ever want to touch you anyway".

The lack of single women by itself is not a bad thing, in the same way that not having a gender equal cast, giving the main protagonist/antagonist roles to men and killing off a lot of the women aren't inherently bad. But when those things extend to a vast majority of media to the point that people are clearly expecting any single female characters to find someone to make an honest women of them, it becomes a problem.

Orm-Embar

2013-10-28, 04:27 PM

On an interpersonal level, TT's alignment hasn't really played in much, which is a big part of the point of Tarquin - people who act perfectly normal and humane to one another are still capable of amazing acts of cruelty outside of their sphere, and not necessarily for a zealot's burning drive, but simply because it's how they do business. The banality of evil. Tarquin is the Lawful Evil that underscores the evil rather than being Emo Knight.

Yes, very true. Laurin's and Miron's willingness to engage in evil acts is another example. They are both willing to come along and lend her talents to murdering a party of adventurers, in return for what? An unspecified favor from Tarquin. They're not defending themselves or trying to prevent a greater evil. The OOTS is running away and seems to pose no threat. But to paraphrase Miron, "Sure, let's go kill some dudes." That's an awfully bland attitude to go out and kill with.

I'm curious to find out what T's favor to Miron was. And what favor Laurin is really hoping for. The shipping suggestions don't seem to have any basis in the comic, as well as being annoying for reasons explained above by others.

Eb Oesch

2013-10-28, 10:15 PM

I don't think Laurin's sex makes it more likely her favor would involve family -- actually I think it makes it marginally less likely, because Rich might consciously avoid a perceived stereotype. But almost everybody important in this strip has major family issues unless they have no family at all (those poor, poor orphans). Caring a lot about family isn't even an "issue", it's just normal. Even nameless evil-ish mooks die in preference to jeopardizing their families.

I like the art in panels 7-8 of strip #924. I think panel 7 depicts a postural analog of blushing. I may be wrong, but if the panel were detailed enough that there was no doubt, that would give too much away in advance, so I think the spare style works very well here. But why would Laurin need Tarquin to fetch her date? (Indentured? Imprisoned? Extraplanar? Dead? Whatever, a reason could be invented if the plot required it.) Normally "Laurin goes on a date" wouldn't even deserve mention, let alone substantial screen time, given how closely the story revolves around the Order and Team Evil. But if Tarquin killed her date...

With family issues resolved to her dissatisfaction, Laurin could adopt other hobbies like ruling the Western Continent and erasing Tarquin from history (easy to do to shadow rulers -- take D**k Clark, for example). That would earn "thematically appropriate revenge" points, tie up the loose plot point of what happens to the Western Continent after Tarquin, and please the diversity handicappers (which is fine when it doesn't impede the story).

Or, the roughly 100% of people who seem to reject the whole Laurin vs. Tarquin theory could be right. I mention that fairly ludicrous possibility only for the sake of completeness.

jere7my

2013-10-28, 10:23 PM

I like the art in panels 7-8 of strip #924. I think panel 7 depicts a postural analog of blushing.

I believe you're missing the eyebrows.

Eb Oesch

2013-10-28, 11:27 PM

I believe you're missing the eyebrows.

Oops. Unless her idea of a date involves playing $100 stakes poker until everyone else runs out of money, I think I see a problem with my previous guess.

Liliet

2013-11-04, 02:44 AM

Why is it a big deal that they don't have a relationship? Are you really complaining that Rich isn't representing the asexual female crowd?

A better metric is where their personal relationships haven't played a major roll, Lien, Tsukiko, Miko . . .
Lien counts. I don't care about fully asexual crowd so long as they can't be told from normal people since sex isn't the center of attention, in much the same way I don't care about fair representation of sexual fetishes.

Tsukiko has hots for Xykon and it is both a plot point and pretty much all we know about her. Well, there's also her relationship with her undead, which also counts as romantic. And the throwaway line "expelled from some of the best wizard academies". That's, yes, all. Tsukiko's relationships are all there is to her personality. So not even close.

Miko played a major role as a love interest for Roy. True, it's not all there was to her, unlike Tsukiko. However, the Order would never had followed her to Azure City if not for Roy's crush, and there was a subplot dedicated to Roy's sexist issues, where her role was more or less defined as "jerky love interest". So no, she doesn't count too. Her romantic relationship was a pretty important part of her character even if unrequited.

Laurin. For now.

And Lien has a boyfriend, though since he's never appeared on-panel she might be considered a grey area.
Well, Lien's boyfriend is so umimportant to the plot that he's pretty much the reverse. As far as I remember, he was only brought up to counter shipping, and that's pretty much all there is to him. Lien is genuinely defined by not-romantic aspects. And she's the only one.

As for Laurin, this is exactly my point in this thread: it's disgusting how people are trying to force the romantic relationship on her seeing as she doesn't have one using "he has high Charisma and she's single" as an argument.

factotum

2013-11-04, 03:10 AM

So no, she doesn't count too. Her romantic relationship was a pretty important part of her character even if unrequited.

I disagree. The romantic relationship was an important part of Roy's character and development--it never mattered much from Miko's side.

JBiddles

2013-11-04, 12:21 PM

Lien counts. I don't care about fully asexual crowd so long as they can't be told from normal people since sex isn't the center of attention, in much the same way I don't care about fair representation of sexual fetishes.

Tsukiko has hots for Xykon and it is both a plot point and pretty much all we know about her. Well, there's also her relationship with her undead, which also counts as romantic. And the throwaway line "expelled from some of the best wizard academies". That's, yes, all. Tsukiko's relationships are all there is to her personality. So not even close.

Tsukiko was little more than a plot device. She fancied Xykon, true, but the major part of her role was as a minor rival for Haley, to lend urgency to the Resistance subplot. Tsukiko's actual characterisation was just an immature but dangerous (and dangerously unhinged) spellcaster - she gave a measure of depth and flavour, essentially, and facilitated Haley's story.

Miko played a major role as a love interest for Roy. True, it's not all there was to her, unlike Tsukiko. However, the Order would never had followed her to Azure City if not for Roy's crush, and there was a subplot dedicated to Roy's sexist issues, where her role was more or less defined as "jerky love interest". So no, she doesn't count too. Her romantic relationship was a pretty important part of her character even if unrequited.

No, no she didn't. Roy had a crush on her, yes, but that was utterly irrelevant to Miko - she essentially ignored him whilst he tried to "defrost" her with sexist methods (to be fair, I doubt Roy had much experience and maturity in that sort of thing, having been trying to kill Xykon since Fighter College), and had her own personality, story and role. Roy lusting after Miko had negligible effect on her character. The Order would indeed have followed Miko if not for Roy - Durkon strongly advocated following her, and Miko would have just arrested them if the Order overruled Durkon.

Miko was one of the characters least defined by sexuality. She was a Javert-style law enforcer whose ultimate hamartia was absolutism and egocentrism, which had nothing to do with her relationships. If not for a throwaway line to Roy that boiled down to "maybe I wouldn't be so dismissive if you grew up, she could have been homo- or asexual and it wouldn't have impacted the story.

Well, Lien's boyfriend is so umimportant to the plot that he's pretty much the reverse. As far as I remember, he was only brought up to counter shipping, and that's pretty much all there is to him. Lien is genuinely defined by not-romantic aspects. And she's the only one.

She's certainly not the only one. Haley, for instance, is her own character regardless of her feelings for Elan; she's defined by her general distrust, her issues with authority, her intellect, her ability to understand others and outthink them, etc. I tend to think of her as the deuteragonist of the Order (if indeed the Order can be said to have such strict delineations, which I don't necessarily think it can) - while Elan may be having his moment in the sun (pun unintended), Haley is fundamentally a more major character.

Miko has already been mentioned.

Kazumi Kato may be in a relationship, but she's hardly defined by it.

Assuming V is female (as I tend to), her relationship with Inkyrius is barely relevant, let alone defining.

Lirian was a great (if unfortunately short-lived - I still hope she and Dorukan will be Resurrected one day) character, who happened to be in a relationship with Dorukan, yes, but was also capable of taking down the High Priest of the Dark One, an Epic Sorcerer, and a small army of goblins using foresight and tactics. We in fact know far more about her than Dorukan, whose only action was to let himself be provoked by Xykon and ultimately die for his silliness under pressure.

As for Laurin, this is exactly my point in this thread: it's disgusting how people are trying to force the romantic relationship on her seeing as she doesn't have one using "he has high Charisma and she's single" as an argument.

It's not necessarily a romantic relationship that's Laurin's motivation - she may well just want to sleep with Tarquin, no strings attached. I don't personally support this theory - it requires several things to be true (e.g. 1. Tarquin being disinclined to sleep with Laurin in the first place - maybe he simply finds her unattractive, or has a relatively low libido? 2. Laurin being willing to burn a lot of Power Points and potentially risk her life to bang Tarquin. 3. Tarquin was just unusually in the mood when he seduced Amun-Zora - who is, now that I think about it, another character undefined by relationships) and therefore O-Chul's Occam's Razor is against it. Regardless, it's not so sexist a hypothesis as it might seem. I don't wish to accuse you of sexism, but if, say, Belkar or Durkon made the "mischief" expression whilst considering a favour from a single female, would it be all that unlikely that they were seeking sexual favours?

OotS isn't perfect when it comes to sexual equality, but it's far better than most works.

EDIT: Oh dear, I'm channelling Vaarsuvius again. TL;DR: whilst most female characters of OotS are in relationships, for the most part they are far from defining characteristics.

Liliet

2013-11-04, 06:41 PM

I disagree. The romantic relationship was an important part of Roy's character and development--it never mattered much from Miko's side.
It mattered for the plot, didn't it?

EDIT: Oh dear, I'm channelling Vaarsuvius again. TL;DR: whilst most female characters of OotS are in relationships, for the most part they are far from defining characteristics.
I don't normally respond to the wall of text as tl;dr, I usually buid them myself, but this time I want to respond to the general point rather than specific examples.

Yes, there are characters not _defined_ by relationships, and it's a major progress. However, count the number of female characters without plot-important romantic relationships or young results of these relationships, and compare it to the number of male characters without plot-important romantic relationships or their young result.

Lien, Laurin, young-rogue-from-Resistance (I remembered another one! yay!), the-girl-from-rogues-guild-Haley-murdered (that one counts, too, I guess) : 4

vs

Reddy, Jirix, O-Chul, paladin-from-Resistance, the elf leader, Kraagor, Aarindarius, Shojo, Hinjo, the-good-leader-of-Thieves-Guild, the-bad-leader-of-Thieves-Guild, Zzdt'ri, Thog, Leeky, Yuk-Yuk, I'm tired and bored so let's make it : 15

4 vs 15, don't you notice that something's wrong here?

mhsmith

2013-11-04, 07:02 PM

...

Lien, Laurin, young-rogue-from-Resistance (I remembered another one! yay!), the-girl-from-rogues-guild-Haley-murdered (that one counts, too, I guess) : 4

vs

Reddy, Jirix, O-Chul, paladin-from-Resistance, the elf leader, Kraagor, Aarindarius, Shojo, Hinjo, the-good-leader-of-Thieves-Guild, the-bad-leader-of-Thieves-Guild, Zzdt'ri, Thog, Leeky, Yuk-Yuk, I'm tired and bored so let's make it : 15

4 vs 15, don't you notice that something's wrong here?

Giant is more likely to have minor throwaway characters be male rather than female. I don't see how or why this is a problem. Few of the above listed characters in either gender have been important (heck, in terms of minor throwaway characters, all or almost all of Tarquin's army looked male too, which seems equally unimportant).

From your list, Redcloak and O-Chul have mattered and that's basically it. And maybe Giant would rather draw a male character being tortured than a female (O-Chul)?

And maybe if Redcloak was female we'd interpret that character as being "just" about the former relationships to sibling, dead parents etc.? Because vengeance is also the driving motivation for Female Black Dragon after all, and that's certainly the prism we view her actions under (which given small # of strips she appeared in, that's probably fair in her case).

Liliet

2013-11-05, 02:09 AM

Sorry, I missed a few of your points when responding originally.

It's not necessarily a romantic relationship that's Laurin's motivation - she may well just want to sleep with Tarquin, no strings attached. I don't personally support this theory - it requires several things to be true (e.g. 1. Tarquin being disinclined to sleep with Laurin in the first place - maybe he simply finds her unattractive, or has a relatively low libido? 2. Laurin being willing to burn a lot of Power Points and potentially risk her life to bang Tarquin. 3. Tarquin was just unusually in the mood when he seduced Amun-Zora - who is, now that I think about it, another character undefined by relationships) and therefore O-Chul's Occam's Razor is against it. Regardless, it's not so sexist a hypothesis as it might seem. I don't wish to accuse you of sexism, but if, say, Belkar or Durkon made the "mischief" expression whilst considering a favour from a single female, would it be all that unlikely that they were seeking sexual favours?
Durkon - I can hardly imagine him having a mischief expression, but even if he had one, I'd have guessed it was something else. Unless you are talking about Durkula that I know nothing about.

Belkar - duh, it's a major part of his characterisation that he's a massive womanizer and has better luck with women that may seem logical. And he's a sexist jerk who is more than likely to view any given single female as a sexual object more than anything else.

If it's in-character for someone to request a sexual favor, then I don't find it unlikely. But I don't see why it would be considered in-character for Laurin, absolutely not.

OotS isn't perfect when it comes to sexual equality, but it's far better than most works.
And this is a point I am in perfect agreement with.

Porthos

2013-11-05, 02:18 AM

I disagree. The romantic relationship was an important part of Roy's character and development--it never mattered much from Miko's side.

I would disagree with this slightly. After the inn exploded, she all but asks Roy out on a date (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html).

It.... Didn't go well. :smalltongue:

OK, maybe I overstate the case. But I find it hard to read what Miko said in 250, and Miko smiling happily for once in her life, as any thing other than a "Hey, you want to go out for a date sometime, I might just be cool with that. You know, now that you're all mature and all, I might give you a shot. I mean, I won't shoot you down immediately. So think about it sometime, OK?"

I dunno. I sometimes wonder if Roy's rejection of Miko when she actually opened up for once in her life didn't also contribute slightly to her downward spiral.

No, I'm NOT saying she went nuts because a guy rejected her. Not even close. I am saying, however, that it increased the tensions between her, Roy, and the rest of the OotS. And when Belkar acted like Belkar, it made it all the easier for Miko to act like Miko.

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-05, 02:24 AM

Well, approaching it from a totally different direction, I believe that Tarquin is as horny as a hoot-owl, and that a woman needn't do him a major favor to get his "attentions" if she wants them.

In short, it's totally out of proportion. It's like storming three fortresses in order to get someone to share half a bag of M&Ms with you, when all you actually have to do is say, "hey, man, gimme a few of those M&Ms." There's a total disproportion in the two matters, which suggests to me that Laurin's desired favor is not something so trivial and easy to acquire as sex with Tarquin.

Liliet

2013-11-05, 02:34 AM

Giant is more likely to have minor throwaway characters be male rather than female. I don't see how or why this is a problem. Few of the above listed characters in either gender have been important (heck, in terms of minor throwaway characters, all or almost all of Tarquin's army looked male too, which seems equally unimportant).

From your list, Redcloak and O-Chul have mattered and that's basically it. And maybe Giant would rather draw a male character being tortured than a female (O-Chul)?

And maybe if Redcloak was female we'd interpret that character as being "just" about the former relationships to sibling, dead parents etc.? Because vengeance is also the driving motivation for Female Black Dragon after all, and that's certainly the prism we view her actions under (which given small # of strips she appeared in, that's probably fair in her case).

So... your point is "being sexist is OK" or what?

And how exactly have Hinjo, Shojo, Thog and Zzdt'ri not mattered?

Reddy is about all the goblinkind, which is pretty obvious from his actions. Both in the prequel book and here, where he acts as a leader of goblins, later embraces the hobgoblins as well and then founds Gobbotopia. He is going after improving the fate of the goblinkind, not after revenge.

ti'esar

2013-11-05, 03:06 AM

Reddy is about all the goblinkind, which is pretty obvious from his actions. Both in the prequel book and here, where he acts as a leader of goblins, later embraces the hobgoblins as well and then founds Gobbotopia. He is going after improving the fate of the goblinkind, not after revenge.

I think that's a ...generous reading of Redcloak.

Not that I disagree with your general point.

SadisticFishing

2013-11-05, 04:32 AM

oppyu

2013-11-05, 07:30 AM

Koo Rehtorb

2013-11-05, 08:09 AM

I do enjoy how Elan is consistently the least competent person of the pair in his romantic entanglements.

HZ514

2013-11-05, 08:38 AM

For what it's worth, I agree with Liliet's original sentiment that assuming Laurin's favor of Tarquin is anything relating to sex is blatantly offensive. The idea completely ignores every established facet of their respective characters except that Tarquin is charismatic & hot and that Laurin is female. It also reduces OotS's writing style to that of a crappy teenage fantasy novel, which I have every ounce of faith will never happen.

Everything else about whether female characters are underrepresented or unfairly marginalized in this and/or other works? Both sides have a point. But overall, I'd summarize the issue with two ideas:

1. Fiction reflects reality. Throughout history, males have dominated the power/protagonist roles. That continues to be true even today, despite the common (sense) belief that women and men are equal. That's just how our world works. For a work of fiction to buck that undeniable truth, it would inevitably be labeled as defying reality just to make a point of it. It wouldn't cheapen the work on a legitimate level, but the story would feel untrue on a certain level, and perhaps forced, because it simply does not jive with the real world. Males dominate major roles.

2. Authors write what they know. Stating the obvious here, the Giant is a heterosexual male. Even the most enlightened heterosexual male has a comically small amount of true insight into the female psyche. Hormones and such preclude that from happening. As such, it's awfully difficult to write varied female characters beyond a certain point without either seeming disingenuous or incongruous. This can be (mostly) overcome by writing a very complete female character, like a protagonist. But since it's much easier to confidently write a relatable male character for a male author, males dominate minor roles.

Mix those two things together and you get the common outcome of a work with primarily male characters. (1) is also much stronger than (2), as well. Look at the Harry Potter series. Even Rowling wrote primarily male pro- and antagonists. Off the top of my head, I'd say it's somewhere around an 80/20% split and that's being generous with some comparatively minor female roles. But #2 did allow her to write noticeably more female background characters, some of which were elevated to major players by the end.

At any rate, I hope none of this comes off as negative criticism of the Giant's work. OotS is outstanding regardless of the genders of its characters.

FlawedParadigm

2013-11-05, 11:12 AM

Huh. And I came to this thread looking for speculation about what Laurin's favour might be. Silly me.

Vinyadan

2013-11-05, 11:44 AM

Anyone else thinks T just did a major mistake by giving Laurin a favor which can be completed at The end of the day? Something like, my favor is for you to be gone from our club. Malack may be a mistake they may not want to repeat

She will ask him to emanate a law for mandatory bidets in every house. In a land without sewers, it will cost quite a lot of reputation.

ChristianSt

2013-11-05, 01:59 PM

I really cant imagine Laurin wantig any sort of "sexytime" from Tarquin.

And if not for any other reason (they are more then enough), then because Kids play this game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html).
Sure, the Giant does reference sexual activity from time to time in-comic, but this isn't some sort of badly written fanfic, and I can't see any reason for making such a choice.

I think either the favor will be related to the order or it will be not brought up later. Since I'm not sure why Laurin's favor should be related to the Order I'm leaning toward the later. [On the other hand I think we might learn more about Miron's favor, because I can imagine it will be featured in a LG/TT prequel book, which I think could be one that is planned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766389&postcount=194)]

AstralFire

2013-11-05, 02:07 PM

On the plausible scenario that Tarquin and Laurin run rather than die, I can see Laurin's favor being something like "swear to me, give me your word that you will not jeopardize any of our plans again for the sake of your legacy or narrative nonsense." Which Tarquin will refuse to do, and so instead leave the scheme, vowing to make things right (in his evil way) and return.

Or that she'd actually force him out.

30/70 odds he kills her as a result and frames the entire thing on the party to get his party to go after them.

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-05, 02:09 PM

Huh. And I came to this thread looking for speculation about what Laurin's favour might be. Silly me.

Yes, silly you. Shall we both be silly and try to come up with some alternatives?

1. She's sick of sitting and sweltering in the sauna constantly and wants to switch off with Tarquin, managing the refreshingly dry Empire of Blood while Tarquin deals with sweaty armpits in the Empire of Sweat.

2. She wants dinosaurs for her army. Lots of them. She's as enthused about dinosaur rides as Elan.

3. She wants that trained triceratops specifically, and is now ticked that it was banished to another plane.

4. She wants out without Tarquin tracking her down. Mind you, with her psionic mobility and extreme power, I don't know why she wouldn't just leave if she had lost interest in the scheme, or why the others would try to prevent it.

5. She wants possession of the Gate so that she can study it, having read in Nale's mind that it is an artifact of great power.

Note that I deliberately avoided things that Tarquin wouldn't do (e.g. kill Elan), since it's a favor, not a blood oath to do anything she asks.

Liliet

2013-11-05, 02:39 PM

This argument seems extremely silly. Women and men are statistically a bit different, and on average run on slightly different motivational systems - but you wouldn't even be able to tell that from OotS. Almost every character has romantic subplots, every character has defining relationships that keep them going - most characters are male (as you'll notice happens in real life in this sort of situation), and so most of the defining relationships are male.

Roy to his father, his father to HIS father, Elan to Nale, Haley, and Roy... It's just how people work. We're defined mostly by how we interact with other people, and this work has done an incredible job of bringing virtually zero attention to gender. Women care about men and other women, men care about men and women, the whole thing is just... Irrelevantly realistic.
What is realistic, male:female ratio and the fact that the majority of women are engaged in romantic relationships? Or the idea that Laurin is sexually/romantically interested in Tarquin?

Also, men and women are different mostly due to cultural pressure. It is not exactly natural.

It's one thing to say the gender trends in media don't apply to the work in question, it's a much larger and debatable point to say it's not a major issue at all.

I believe that the disproportionately romanced genders is more of a symptom of other more pervasive gender trends. Namely, the ones that resulted in almost all protagonists, major villains, minor villains, and everyone in OOTSverse being a heterosexual male.

Naturally these characters would get all the juicy storylines, so if the author wants to include some dames, where do they go? Oh! I know! That blonde sylph from a few hundred strips ago can come romance my heterosexual male protagonist! The minor antagonist dwarf lady can gain relevance by romancing one of the supporting male protagonists! We can have a cool ninja chick, and she'll romance the heterosexual male deuteragonist! I only have one female main character/tritagonist, and I need a character arc... ooh, I know! Romance! With the male deuteragonist! And we'll have the entire budding romance shown from her perspective, because naturally it's central to her character development!

If you have one female character to every four or five more important male characters and they are ALL heterosexual, of course just about every lady is going to be paired off. And it leads to this weird self-perpetuating stereotype that every female character is just waiting for a big strong man to engage in a romance storyline, ergo "Laurin was in love with Malack!" "Laurin is in love with Miron!" "Laurin totally wants to bone Tarquin!"
Exactly.

For what it's worth, I agree with Liliet's original sentiment that assuming Laurin's favor of Tarquin is anything relating to sex is blatantly offensive. The idea completely ignores every established facet of their respective characters except that Tarquin is charismatic & hot and that Laurin is female. It also reduces OotS's writing style to that of a crappy teenage fantasy novel, which I have every ounce of faith will never happen.
Yeah, my point. Thanks ^^

Everything else about whether female characters are underrepresented or unfairly marginalized in this and/or other works? Both sides have a point. But overall, I'd summarize the issue with two ideas:

1. Fiction reflects reality. Throughout history, males have dominated the power/protagonist roles. That continues to be true even today, despite the common (sense) belief that women and men are equal. That's just how our world works. For a work of fiction to buck that undeniable truth, it would inevitably be labeled as defying reality just to make a point of it. It wouldn't cheapen the work on a legitimate level, but the story would feel untrue on a certain level, and perhaps forced, because it simply does not jive with the real world. Males dominate major roles.

2. Authors write what they know. Stating the obvious here, the Giant is a heterosexual male. Even the most enlightened heterosexual male has a comically small amount of true insight into the female psyche. Hormones and such preclude that from happening. As such, it's awfully difficult to write varied female characters beyond a certain point without either seeming disingenuous or incongruous. This can be (mostly) overcome by writing a very complete female character, like a protagonist. But since it's much easier to confidently write a relatable male character for a male author, males dominate minor roles.

Mix those two things together and you get the common outcome of a work with primarily male characters. (1) is also much stronger than (2), as well. Look at the Harry Potter series. Even Rowling wrote primarily male pro- and antagonists. Off the top of my head, I'd say it's somewhere around an 80/20% split and that's being generous with some comparatively minor female roles. But #2 did allow her to write noticeably more female background characters, some of which were elevated to major players by the end.

At any rate, I hope none of this comes off as negative criticism of the Giant's work. OotS is outstanding regardless of the genders of its characters.
And do you think those facts are okay? That we should agree with and encourage that the males dominate both major and minor roles?

ti'esar

2013-11-05, 03:54 PM

And do you think those facts are normal? That we should agree with and encourage that the males dominate both major and minor roles?

Nitpick: I think "okay" or something like that is better phrasing than "normal".

Shred-Bot

2013-11-05, 04:17 PM

Yes, silly you. Shall we both be silly and try to come up with some alternatives?

1. She's sick of sitting and sweltering in the sauna constantly and wants to switch off with Tarquin, managing the refreshingly dry Empire of Blood while Tarquin deals with sweaty armpits in the Empire of Sweat.

I like this one... even if she chose any of the adaptation powers, there is nothing in their text relating to comfort. Some more wild speculations:

1) Hannah's birthday is tomorrow, and Laurin has difficulty coming up with good gift ideas (what do you get for the plumber who has EVERYTHING?), so she needs Tarkie to go shopping for her.

2) Laurin is also willing to go to great lengths for the sake of a joke, so she burns her favor to have Tarquin pull her finger.

3) Laurin always wanted to be a dragon, so she wants permission to do some mind switching with the Empress of Blood.

4) Those Ioun Stones could always use a good polishing, I imagine those things are tricky to keep clean in the desert.

5) Due to her playing a squishy class, Laurin's throwing arm isn't great, and she wants to go TP the Weeping King's palace.

Vladier

2013-11-05, 04:55 PM

Also, men and women are different mostly due to cultural pressure. It is not exactly natural.

I'll inform the lions and many other species of animals, who, despite not being intelligent enough to create a culture and all that comes with it, still have different behaviour dependent on their gender, that what they're doing is unnatural.
While I in no way encourage discrimination based on sexual differences, I do find that going in completely opposite direction - claiming that men and women are the same and that their societal roles are merely a product of, well, society - to be as wrong.
The thing is, men and women ARE different, with different genes, percentage of hormones and yes, even their way of thinking in some situations. There is no shame in that and, again, it is not a valid reason to not give women rights equal to those of men but I find that ignoring uniqueness that biological sex brings to an individual's life is just not right.

Liliet

2013-11-05, 06:29 PM

Nitpick: I think "okay" or something like that is better phrasing than "normal".
Yep, thanks. Fixed that.

I like this one... even if she chose any of the adaptation powers, there is nothing in their text relating to comfort. Some more wild speculations:

1) Hannah's birthday is tomorrow, and Laurin has difficulty coming up with good gift ideas (what do you get for the plumber who has EVERYTHING?), so she needs Tarkie to go shopping for her.

2) Laurin is also willing to go to great lengths for the sake of a joke, so she burns her favor to have Tarquin pull her finger.

3) Laurin always wanted to be a dragon, so she wants permission to do some mind switching with the Empress of Blood.

4) Those Ioun Stones could always use a good polishing, I imagine those things are tricky to keep clean in the desert.

5) Due to her playing a squishy class, Laurin's throwing arm isn't great, and she wants to go TP the Weeping King's palace.
I like these!

I'll inform the lions and many other species of animals, who, despite not being intelligent enough to create a culture and all that comes with it, still have different behaviour dependent on their gender, that what they're doing is unnatural.
While I in no way encourage discrimination based on sexual differences, I do find that going in completely opposite direction - claiming that men and women are the same and that their societal roles are merely a product of, well, society - to be as wrong.
The thing is, men and women ARE different, with different genes, percentage of hormones and yes, even their way of thinking in some situations. There is no shame in that and, again, it is not a valid reason to not give women rights equal to those of men but I find that ignoring uniqueness that biological sex brings to an individual's life is just not right.
They are. But displaying them as always being paired off is still stupid and sexist, and I'm not even touching the "Hero gets the girl" thing.

Benthesquid

2013-11-06, 12:16 AM

I'll inform the lions and many other species of animals, who, despite not being intelligent enough to create a culture and all that comes with it, still have different behaviour dependent on their gender, that what they're doing is unnatural.
While I in no way encourage discrimination based on sexual differences, I do find that going in completely opposite direction - claiming that men and women are the same and that their societal roles are merely a product of, well, society - to be as wrong.
The thing is, men and women ARE different, with different genes, percentage of hormones and yes, even their way of thinking in some situations. There is no shame in that and, again, it is not a valid reason to not give women rights equal to those of men but I find that ignoring uniqueness that biological sex brings to an individual's life is just not right.

Bah, you might be able to make general statements about the differences in the way men and women think (although I'm leery of even that without some hard proof) but this sort of thing is always on a spectrum. Like, I can say, "Men are generally taller then women," but for the vast majority of men, some women will be taller than them, and for the vast majority of women, some men will be shorter.

warrl

2013-11-06, 12:28 AM

I think the whole thing about the relative proportion of female characters (versus male characters) who are defined primarily by romantic/sexual relationships, really is a neutral-person issue.

Or in other words, The Giant is being criticized for not making a point of violating readers' expectations in ways that (in his judgment) wouldn't be better for the story he wants to tell and might take away from it.

Would the story be improved if The Giant were to make a point of telling us that half of the army Tarquin brought with him in this arc are women? No, if anything it would be made worse by the forcing-in of such an irrelevant detail.

If we assume that army personnel of unspecified gender are 50% female, then the argument that females disproportionately are defined solely by their romantic/parental relationships disappears in a cloud of statistical insignificance.

Most readers, though, will assume - without being told - that most of the mooks in various armies are male. It isn't The Giant's fault. He's under no obligation to correct this idea that happens to be true in the real world.

Readers will also assume that most characters who voluntarily leave their homes to go on dangerous or physically challenging adventures are male. Which also happens to be true in the real world.

A writer generally shouldn't violate that sort of assumption unless there's a reason why doing so is better for the story the writer is trying to tell.

Most adventurers and military types in OotS are male - because The Giant has no reason to routinely break that assumption and unrealistically equalize.

Most of said males' romantic interests - some of which may be in the story primarily for the purpose of being romantic interests - are female, same reason applied to a different assumption.

137beth

2013-11-06, 12:30 AM

I have a new prediction:
Laurin's favor will be that Tarquin force forumites to stop derailing threads into discussions about gender and sexuality.

ti'esar

2013-11-06, 12:33 AM

...I'd reply to that rather appalling wall of normativity, but I have a feeling this thread has gone way too far into real-world discussion already.

Domino Quartz

2013-11-06, 12:34 AM

I have a new prediction:
Laurin's favor will be that Tarquin force forumites to stop derailing threads into discussions about gender and sexuality.

I like this one. This must be it.

137beth

2013-11-06, 12:48 AM

The real question is why she can't do it herself with psionics. Maybe she just wants to let Tarquin use intimidate to conserve pp...
or maybe she assumes a gaming forum will be full of people with Mind Blank, so only mundane methods (like torture or intimidation) will work.

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-06, 01:21 AM

I have a new prediction:
Laurin's favor will be that Tarquin force forumites to stop derailing threads into discussions about gender and sexuality.

Would that this were the case, but alas, it seems likely we shall be disappointed.

oppyu

2013-11-06, 01:21 AM

I have a new prediction:
Laurin's favor will be that Tarquin force forumites to stop derailing threads into discussions about gender and sexuality.
*sigh* Yes, you may have a point there. Maybe. It stops being fun once you start getting waves of neverending apologists with the "Diversity would make this comic WORSE! Everything is fine!"

It's possible Laurin just wants Tarquin's support on something in party politics, to be the swing vote on something.

snikrept

2013-11-06, 03:56 AM

Tarquin believes in life as a series of simplistic fairytale storyboards. I could see him trying to get his friends and compatriots to pair off and marry each other.

Seems like his buddies, on the other hand, would have heard about this nonstop from him over the years and would be resisting it.

HZ514

2013-11-06, 04:27 AM

*sigh* Yes, you may have a point there. Maybe. It stops being fun once you start getting waves of neverending apologists with the "Diversity would make this comic WORSE! Everything is fine!"

That's true, though. Forced diversity does make [anything] worse. If you get frustrated by logic getting in the way of your fun...well, argumentation may not be for you.

zimmerwald1915

2013-11-06, 04:35 AM

Would the story be improved if The Giant were to make a point of telling us that half of the army Tarquin brought with him in this arc are women? No, if anything it would be made worse by the forcing-in of such an irrelevant detail.
And yet the Giant went to the trouble of making ten of the twenty-three Azurite soldiers shown in 3/4 view (though none of the soldiers shown from the back) in the seventeenth panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) female. He had no problem making three of the ten Azurites in the third panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) female. Or two of the ten soldiers shown in 3/4 view (again discounting those shown from the back) in the first panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html). Or twelve of the forty Sapphire Guard in the throne room in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html). Or four of the twenty-three soldiers in the eighth panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) (incidentally, only half the women pictured deserted, while almost two thirds of the men did so). In other words, when it came to showing big numbers of Azurite soldiers, the Giant had no problem taking the time to making between a fifth and a third of them female.

There are also four unambiguous elf-women and only one unambiguous elf-men pictured fighting Redcloak's goblins on the splash page opening the sequence in Lirian's Glade. Those goblins, by the way? All men. As are the hobgoblin troops that Redcloak leads to battle the Azurites; hobgoblin-women don't start appearing until Don't Split the Party.

The Azurite military and Lirian's militia are/were more gender-integrated than the Empire of Blood's military or Gobbotopia's military. Make of this what you will. I would say that rather than the women in the Azurite army being conspicuous by their presence, that they are conspicuous in the Bloodite army by their absence. But you cannot claim that armies in The Order of the Stick are generally all-male, or so predominantly male that women aren't worth the trouble of showing. It ain't so.

Liliet

2013-11-06, 04:40 AM

I think the whole thing about the relative proportion of female characters (versus male characters) who are defined primarily by romantic/sexual relationships, really is a neutral-person issue.
...
I want to reply here, but I'm afraid that it would be too inflammatory. I'll just say that I disagree with this stance.

I have a new prediction:
Laurin's favor will be that Tarquin force forumites to stop derailing threads into discussions about gender and sexuality.
Do you think he can do that?

That's true, though. Forced diversity does make [anything] worse. If you get frustrated by logic getting in the way of your fun...well, argumentation may not be for you.
Forced diversity is when you are doing your best to make half of the cast LGBT+ of all kinds, preferably with disabilities and of different etnicities, when the story does not call for that and the issue just confuses the audience.

When you are doing your best to make half of the cast female who do not all have a "romantic interest" role, this is not forced diversity.

When your story seems to take place in a world where the male:female ration is not 1:1 but rather 10:1, but at the same time is supposed to reflect our world in that regard, this is not logic.

Women are just as likely as men to have or not have romantic relationships. If you are frustrated by logic getting in the way of your fun... well, argumentation may not be for you.

zimmerwald1915

2013-11-06, 04:43 AM

Do you think he can do that?
I doubt it. Tarquin couldn't get the forumarena audience to stop loving Thog. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html)

Domino Quartz

2013-11-06, 04:44 AM

Can we just agree that Laurin's favour was probably not sex and get back to discussing what it actually might be (or not be, as the case may be)?
EDIT: I'll start. I think it's probably not anything to do with her daughter or anything political, because a favour like that would probably take more than a day to pay off. It's probably something simpler. No idea what it could be though. :smallfrown:

Liliet

2013-11-06, 05:33 AM

It can be really anything (within certain range, of course, but still), so I'd switch to guessing based on narrative flow.

It's absolutely not anything sex or marriage-related because that does not fill any role other than make her conform to narrative traditions, which is something I hope Giant would rather avoid.

It might be something plot-critical, but most probably not because it would take more than a day and complicate matters a bit too much.

My bet is that it's something funny that's going to serve as a punchline. Or it can also be not revealed after all, but teased to be revealed - that would be a good joke too. Anyway, my guess is that its narrative purpose is comedy.

HZ514

2013-11-06, 05:54 AM

Forced diversity is when you are doing your best to make half of the cast LGBT+ of all kinds, preferably with disabilities and of different etnicities, when the story does not call for that and the issue just confuses the audience.

When you are doing your best to make half of the cast female who do not all have a "romantic interest" role, this is not forced diversity.

When your story seems to take place in a world where the male:female ration is not 1:1 but rather 10:1, but at the same time is supposed to reflect our world in that regard, this is not logic.

Women are just as likely as men to have or not have romantic relationships. If you are frustrated by logic getting in the way of your fun... well, argumentation may not be for you.

The first distinction you drew is not between forced diversity and the absence of it, but rather between "very forced diversity" and "not as much forced diversity". I understand you were going for hyperbole, but I hope that much is clear to you. You clearly state that the story does not call for LGBT, disabilities, etc. but it must be readily apparent that the story does not "call for" gender equality either. I can't imagine where you would be getting any idea to the contrary.

(Edit: I think the Giant said it best when he used the word "regrettable" to describe the gender split of the actual OotS itself. 4-1-1 is rather heavily weighted toward male, to be sure. I feel the same way about it. Unfortunately, one story or form of media cannot address every possible social issue, especially to the degree which its ardent supporters would like. Every author has their crosses to bear. The Giant's major one, and I intend only to echo what he's said on the matter rather than make assumptions on his behalf, the idea that a species being always evil makes it morally righteous to kill. I'm paraphrasing and almost certainly selling his specific stance short but the point is no one author can write one story to be everything everyone wants. It's okay to be neutral on some, really most, social issues. That isn't to dismiss those other things as unimportant, because they certainly are important. It's just to say they aren't going to be championed by OotS.)

There is nothing offensive, derogatory, demeaning, etc. about being in a relationship or having a romantic interest. And it really is a stretch for you to say that every female character is even in that category. Your decisions on which female characters to include and how to evaluate them were made entirely for the sake of supporting your own argument, which is circular reasoning. Yes, if you interpret things to be a certain way you don't like, then you're not going to like the way those things are. But I digress. The point is that relationships are a fundamental part of life and I don't for the life of me see why you think emotional attachment detracts from characters rather than adds to them.

There is a reason the story "seems" (very important word) to take place in a world with, as you put it, a 10:1 gender split. OotS is a riff on D&D, which itself is meant to represent medieval times with magic. In medieval times, men dominated societies and as a result, stories. OotS is not a demographically accurate biopic of the world in which it exists. If it were, then you'd have cause to gripe about why there isn't a 50/50 split. It's a story, and one with predominantly male characters because that is how stories tend to work. There is nothing illogical about that.

Thanks for reiterating my point back at me, I suppose? Needless sarcasm aside, I'm not frustrated to disagree with people. Intelligent discussion is the life force of any healthy forum. It does get exasperating when it seems they don't read the meat of a post and deflect with a snide remark aimed at one subsection of one post, though.

Kish

2013-11-06, 06:22 AM

There is a reason the story "seems" (very important word) to take place in a world with, as you put it, a 10:1 gender split.
Yes. There is. It's that the author did it accidentally. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15058416&postcount=477) Defending it as an artistic decision is goofy; it wasn't an artistic decision and the author doesn't defend it.

I might add that I gained a great deal of respect for him when he looked at the numbers and said, (paraphrasing) "Huh. Yeah, I blew it there," which I would not have gained had he instead protested that it's a "medieval setting" (so there can be nonhumans, wizards, adventurers of all sorts, fiends running around, but gods forbid it not be massively sexist because that would just be unrealistic), or that objecting to racism meant sexism was something he had to ignore.

oppyu

2013-11-06, 07:16 AM

The first distinction you drew is not between forced diversity and the absence of it, but rather between "very forced diversity" and "not as much forced diversity". I understand you were going for hyperbole, but I hope that much is clear to you. You clearly state that the story does not call for LGBT, disabilities, etc. but it must be readily apparent that the story does not "call for" gender equality either. I can't imagine where you would be getting any idea to the contrary.

(Edit: I think the Giant said it best when he used the word "regrettable" to describe the gender split of the actual OotS itself. 4-1-1 is rather heavily weighted toward male, to be sure. I feel the same way about it. Unfortunately, one story or form of media cannot address every possible social issue, especially to the degree which its ardent supporters would like. Every author has their crosses to bear. The Giant's major one, and I intend only to echo what he's said on the matter rather than make assumptions on his behalf, the idea that a species being always evil makes it morally righteous to kill. I'm paraphrasing and almost certainly selling his specific stance short but the point is no one author can write one story to be everything everyone wants. It's okay to be neutral on some, really most, social issues. That isn't to dismiss those other things as unimportant, because they certainly are important. It's just to say they aren't going to be championed by OotS.)

There is nothing offensive, derogatory, demeaning, etc. about being in a relationship or having a romantic interest. And it really is a stretch for you to say that every female character is even in that category. Your decisions on which female characters to include and how to evaluate them were made entirely for the sake of supporting your own argument, which is circular reasoning. Yes, if you interpret things to be a certain way you don't like, then you're not going to like the way those things are. But I digress. The point is that relationships are a fundamental part of life and I don't for the life of me see why you think emotional attachment detracts from characters rather than adds to them.

There is a reason the story "seems" (very important word) to take place in a world with, as you put it, a 10:1 gender split. OotS is a riff on D&D, which itself is meant to represent medieval times with magic. In medieval times, men dominated societies and as a result, stories. OotS is not a demographically accurate biopic of the world in which it exists. If it were, then you'd have cause to gripe about why there isn't a 50/50 split. It's a story, and one with predominantly male characters because that is how stories tend to work. There is nothing illogical about that.

Thanks for reiterating my point back at me, I suppose? Needless sarcasm aside, I'm not frustrated to disagree with people. Intelligent discussion is the life force of any healthy forum. It does get exasperating when it seems they don't read the meat of a post and deflect with a snide remark aimed at one subsection of one post, though.
The problem is that you're addressing diversity as a special interest that should only come up when the author is trying to make a specific point, and that male-dominated gender inequality is the neutral choice. Any time an author chooses to go waaaaaay in favour of men in their narrative, it's not a neutral choice, it's making the choice to reinforce the current gender paradigm, and I'm perfectly happy to criticise OOTS for that. Sure, OOTS is better than most, but the story still clearly leans towards heterosexual major characters with penises (or male pelvic bones in Xykon's case) and is still fighting against gender diversity in media not released specifically for women.

The point that relationships don't detract from characters is missing the point. Romance arcs are not inherently bad, and the disproportionate allocation of romance arcs to female characters isn't even the issue, it's a symptom. If you have 40 dudes and 10 women in a narrative, most of the women will be paired off. You don't solve the issue with less romance arcs, you solve the issue by writing in women. Would any of the major male characters in this narrative be ruined if they were gender-reversed? Seriously, I just went through and couldn't think of any, although it could disrupt the running theme of 'Fathers will be given far more character depth than mothers, because the fathers suck'.

Finally, the demographics of the OOTSverse not depicted in OOTS are completely irrelevant. If you make a story centred on glorifying [insert acceptable political target group], the possibility that the rest of the universe opposes that group does not affect the product or it's cultural impact in any way whatsoever.

In summary, making a story filled with dudes is not neutral, it's an implicit reinforcement of the current paradigm. Check Our Little Adventure (http://danielscreations.com/ola/index.html) for a story that operates in the same medieval game universe as OOTS, but has a female protagonist in a gender-balanced party (which also includes one homosexual and one bisexual character) facing an evil empire led by two homosexual men. Funnily enough, it doesn't cause the universe to tear asunder with how incredibly unrealistic it would be to have more than one or two relevant women at any given time.

On a separate note, would it be OK to open a 'gender in OOTS' thread considering the last one got locked?

Liliet

2013-11-06, 07:18 AM

There is nothing offensive, derogatory, demeaning, etc. about being in a relationship or having a romantic interest. And it really is a stretch for you to say that every female character is even in that category. Your decisions on which female characters to include and how to evaluate them were made entirely for the sake of supporting your own argument, which is circular reasoning. Yes, if you interpret things to be a certain way you don't like, then you're not going to like the way those things are. But I digress. The point is that relationships are a fundamental part of life and I don't for the life of me see why you think emotional attachment detracts from characters rather than adds to them.
You are wrong about evaluating my decisions. You may have noticed that while counting the examples I added two more female characters, even though it's contrary to my point, just because I wanted to be fair and include all I could remember.

I included in my calculation all female characters I could remember but not all male characters because there are really too many of them. If the ratio is biased, it's in the other direction: there are _even_more_ relationshipless male characters per one relationshipless female character.

Anyway, you are welcome to make a different calculation and present some other ratio.

And it's not the relationships themselves that are derogatory, it's the assumption that every female character must be in a relationship.

There is a reason the story "seems" (very important word) to take place in a world with, as you put it, a 10:1 gender split. OotS is a riff on D&D, which itself is meant to represent medieval times with magic. In medieval times, men dominated societies and as a result, stories. OotS is not a demographically accurate biopic of the world in which it exists. If it were, then you'd have cause to gripe about why there isn't a 50/50 split. It's a story, and one with predominantly male characters because that is how stories tend to work. There is nothing illogical about that.
You may have noticed that DnD, like many computer RPGs, allows for male and female characters equally, without any penalties, mechanical or roleplaying, for playing either gender. It was deliberately designed with gender equality in mind, to allow female gamers to participate equally. And if you think that the majority of gamers are male, you don't know the roleplaying community, at least in Russian-speaking countries: there is always a problem with the lack of male players for male characters, and either the girls play guys, or the world becomes predominantly female with males being NPCs. This applies both to LARP and to online play-by-post gaming forums; I'm not familiar with tabletop gaming community, but even if it's somehow substatially different, it still doesn't outweigh online and field gaming both.

Pretending that in the game world there should be more male characters than female is ridiculous when the online advertisements to the LARP games and gaming forum announcement boards start with "We have enough female characters/players, please invite your male friends to join, we have a special bonus to give to them just for the virtue of being male because WE LACK THEM".

The Giant has chosen to portray not a semi-realistic medieval world, but a typical DnD world, with crazy technology, heroes in every tavern and convenient treasure and level-appropriate encounters for the adventurers. In such a world it is _unrealistic_ to have so heavily skewed towards male gender ratio.

As Kish has already noted, The Giant has acknowledged the gender ratio in OotS as his failure. I'm not blaming him for it; he's human like we all are, and gender equality wasn't really his point. The same goes with relationships: all important females being paired off is not all that bad when compared with mainstream media. The comic is good enough as it is.

What's bad is that whenever the prominent female character without a relationship appears, the fans immediately try to assign her one. People _expect_ sexism, it's normal for them, and the opposite is weird and unrealistic... even though in real life women are exactly as likely to be in a romantic relationship as men are. This "girls are all romantic interests for someone" is an artifact from the outdated convention that female characters are in the story _solely_ to be sexual/romantic/matrimonial objects. It's a bad convention, and it's a bad artifact, and what's the worst is that people are used to it.

AstralFire

2013-11-06, 07:39 AM

What's bad is that whenever the prominent female character without a relationship appears, the fans immediately try to assign her one. People _expect_ sexism, it's normal for them, and the opposite is weird and unrealistic... even though in real life women are exactly as likely to be in a romantic relationship as men are. This "girls are all romantic interests for someone" is an artifact from the outdated convention that female characters are in the story _solely_ to be sexual/romantic/matrimonial objects. It's a bad convention, and it's a bad artifact, and what's the worst is that people are used to it.

I usually give it leeway because I'm used to seeing "shipping" attach to every single person regardless of sex/gender. I'm fairly certain some of the resistance is from people who don't like the idea of all shipping inherently being sexist, even when they're shipping up and down the gender continuum and LGBTQ spectrum. And I think a lot of shippers on this forum are fairly gender-neutral.

But "Laurin wants sexual favors" is just so beyond the pale.

Honestly, I'd rather discuss the actual favors she might be looking for now. It seems that no one's earnestly advocating for the sexual stuff anymore, at least.

On the plausible scenario that Tarquin and Laurin run rather than die, I can see Laurin's favor being something like "swear to me, give me your word that you will not jeopardize any of our plans again for the sake of your legacy or narrative nonsense." Which Tarquin will refuse to do, and so instead leave the scheme, vowing to make things right (in his evil way) and return.

Or that she'd actually force him out.

30/70 odds he kills her as a result and frames the entire thing on the party to get his party to go after them.

Sapphire Guard

2013-11-06, 07:42 AM

Xelbiuj

2013-11-06, 08:52 AM

Maybe it's a magic item, perhaps one that makes him immune to psionics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)?

As for no female soldiers in EoB's Army, the comic isn't the Giant's soapbox or some Freudian microscope, perhaps the EoB itself (and not the artist) is sexist? I know shocking right?

Liliet

2013-11-06, 11:17 AM

Guys, have any of you read fanfic? Everyone, of every gender, gets paired with everyone. Mortal enemies? In love. Never met each other? In love. Barely acquainted? In love? Living in separate plains of existence and literally have no concept of each other's existence? In love. It gets to the point where it's hard to find non romantic fanfic. And if anything it's even worse for the guys, most of the weirder pairings are things like Harry/Voldemort, or Severus Snape/Hermione Granger.

With that said, I agree that there needs to be more women with non romantic motivations in fiction.

About Laurin's favour, I doubt she's going to waste it on something that pointless.

This is not shipping. This is a lot of people genuinely thinking that Laurin's favor will be of sexual nature based on "she's female, she's smiling mischievously and Tarquin has high Charisma". I don't have anything against fanfics (although no, I don't read them unless I know their author as a good writer), but this is not the fanfic. This is an honest to god speculation about canon.

JBiddles

2013-11-06, 11:56 AM

This is not shipping. This is a lot of people genuinely thinking that Laurin's favor will be of sexual nature based on "she's female, she's smiling mischievously and Tarquin has high Charisma". I don't have anything against fanfics (although no, I don't read them unless I know their author as a good writer), but this is not the fanfic. This is an honest to god speculation about canon.

I doubt that it's the case, but I genuinely don't think it's a sexist hypothesis. We don't know anything about Laurin's attraction or lack thereof to Tarquin, and the hypothesis isn't based on Laurin being female; it's based on her expression, posture and speech.

As for no female soldiers in EoB's Army, the comic isn't the Giant's soapbox or some Freudian microscope, perhaps the EoB itself (and not the artist) is sexist? I know shocking right?

There's no reason for sexism to present itself in such a form in OotS. Women don't have any statistical inclination towards less strength, and pregnancy apparently doesn't incapacitate particularly ("Who cares how many people I have to kill? I can always make more in my tummy!"), so sexism in such a form would halve Tarquin's army; Tarquin's misogynistic, sure, since he sees women as objects, but then, he sees everyone as objects to be used as narrative devices - he just happens to also be attracted to females.

As for the army, I just assumed that it was half female, and that the armor is androgynous in shape and long hair is tucked into the helmet.

zimmerwald1915

2013-11-06, 12:07 PM

As for the army, I just assumed that it was half female, and that the armor is androgynous in shape and long hair is tucked into the helmet.
Armor follows body shape, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html) apparently.

Liliet

2013-11-06, 12:15 PM

I doubt that it's the case, but I genuinely don't think it's a sexist hypothesis. We don't know anything about Laurin's attraction or lack thereof to Tarquin, and the hypothesis isn't based on Laurin being female; it's based on her expression, posture and speech.
It ignores her being Tarquin's old friend, Tarquin being not exactly hard to get, Tarquin being not a very desirable partner because of his treatment of his wives, her being a psion who can get what she wants without favors and her apparent lack of attraction to Tarquin at least at the moment: see Malack's death and her refusal to help Tarkie out with the battle.

And how exactly is Laurin's stick figure expression, stick figure posture and decidedly neutral speech screaming "I want sex with Tarquin tonight and am willing to participate in a dangerous fight for its sake?"

There's no reason for sexism to present itself in such a form in OotS. Women don't have any statistical inclination towards less strength, and pregnancy apparently doesn't incapacitate particularly ("Who cares how many people I have to kill? I can always make more in my tummy!"), so sexism in such a form would halve Tarquin's army; Tarquin's misogynistic, sure, since he sees women as objects, but then, he sees everyone as objects to be used as narrative devices - he just happens to also be attracted to females.

As for the army, I just assumed that it was half female, and that the armor is androgynous in shape and long hair is tucked into the helmet.
I have no problems with society in general being sexist, just like Roy was when he met Miko. What I have problems with is narrative and audience being sexist.

Vladier

2013-11-06, 01:07 PM

I have no problems with society in general being sexist, just like Roy was when he met Miko. What I have problems with is narrative and audience being sexist.
So, are you implying that Roy is, in fact, a whole society?
On a more serious note, the narrative isn't sexist, IMHO, you're just exaggerating an honest mistake the Giant made while creating the Order.
Also, I don't really see anything sexist in making characters, both male and female, defined largely by their relationship with other characters, be it a family, or *shudder* heterosexual love. Humans (and most likely any other race) are social animals and it's them existing outside relationship that's regarded as bizarre and deviant, not the opposite. And, really, Haley is far more defined outside her relationship with Elan than within (and within it she's portrayed to be much more competent than her lover), even though their love helped her with a crisis of trust.

The Azurite military and Lirian's militia are/were more gender-integrated than the Empire of Blood's military or Gobbotopia's military. Make of this what you will. I would say that rather than the women in the Azurite army being conspicuous by their presence, that they are conspicuous in the Bloodite army by their absence. But you cannot claim that armies in The Order of the Stick are generally all-male, or so predominantly male that women aren't worth the trouble of showing. It ain't so.

Perhaps it's because a LE regime, like that of Gobbotopia or EoB is more likely to use conscription, which generally targets male population, even in a fantasy setting where women are no worse than men, even while being pregnant. Or that the Azurites were experiencing an invasion, so they were willing to accept any help, and Lirian's militia is, well, militia, and it's the same principle.

On the topic, though, I don't believe that Laurin's favour would include anything related to sex. From her grin I deduced that it would be at most something embarrassing, like seeing Tarquin wearing a tutu or something. Perhaps once during their adventuring years Miron suggested to dress Tarquin as a ballerina to infiltrate a travelling theatre but the latter proposed a better plan (thus beginning his path as his group's tactician) and yet the thought never left Laurin's imagination.

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-06, 01:18 PM

This is not shipping. This is a lot of people genuinely thinking that Laurin's favor will be of sexual nature based on "she's female, she's smiling mischievously and Tarquin has high Charisma".

Is it really based on "she's female," though, or more on "people reading the comic have a randy element amongst them, who are automatically going to assume that anyone, male or female, asking for a favor with a mischievous smile has something sexual in mind?

If the situation were reversed, and Tarquin was saying "I even have a favor in mind, so it can be cleared before the end of the day" to Laurin with a big ol' smirk on his face, does it seem likely that those same people would then say, "hey, that sounds like innuendo -- but no, he's a guy, so it must be non-sexual?" And post nothing about it maybe being sex related?!?

I'd bet dollars to donuts half the comments would be "sounds like Tarquin wants to get into her pants!"

If Laurin said the same to another woman, there would be lesbian speculation. If Tarquin said it to another guy with that expression, there would be gay speculation.

I mean, when Varsuuvius and Z'ztdri were fighting, people were speculating they were about to start getting it on just because they were interacting in some way. And they're two elves of uncertain gender and sexuality who apparently don't give a dang about sex anyway, and who were trying to kill each other at the time while openly expressing hatred, for Thor's sake.

So I'm not sure if it's "sexism" operating here, or what we might call "sexyism," in which a certain percentage of forum posters assume that, to quote Belkar, two characters "want a little something something" anytime they interact, regardless of whether they're female, male, neuter, asexual, or made out of non-reproductive holy fire.

tl;dr: someone always assumes there's sex involved. I'm not so sure it's because Laurin's female, but because she exists in the comic.

Dwy

2013-11-06, 01:47 PM

Btw, could Miron's favor 12 years ago have been that he was really blue-balled and Tarquin agreed to take one for the team to help his buddy get back in the game(effectively becoming Miron's rebound guy)? I totally assume that's it, anyway.

It's hinted at in comic. You know, cause the guy wears blue clothes, and is so ugly he has to hide half his face.

Liliet

2013-11-06, 01:47 PM

Possible. There were just a little too many of those people for that to be the only factor ><

ti'esar

2013-11-06, 02:29 PM

I mean, when Varsuuvius and Z'ztdri were fighting, people were speculating they were about to start getting it on just because they were interacting in some way. And they're two elves of uncertain gender and sexuality who apparently don't give a dang about sex anyway, and who were trying to kill each other at the time while openly expressing hatred, for Thor's sake.

Oh, wow, I remember this. So bizarre.

But I'm not sure this sort of thing (and especially not your Tarquin counterexample) really works as an "explanation".

AstralFire

2013-11-06, 02:36 PM

Possible. There were just a little too many of that people for that to be the only factor ><

Dwy was joking.

HZ514

2013-11-06, 02:50 PM

Yes. There is. It's that the author did it accidentally. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15058416&postcount=477) Defending it as an artistic decision is goofy; it wasn't an artistic decision and the author doesn't defend it.

I might add that I gained a great deal of respect for him when he looked at the numbers and said, (paraphrasing) "Huh. Yeah, I blew it there," which I would not have gained had he instead protested that it's a "medieval setting" (so there can be nonhumans, wizards, adventurers of all sorts, fiends running around, but gods forbid it not be massively sexist because that would just be unrealistic), or that objecting to racism meant sexism was something he had to ignore.

I never said it was an artistic decision, though. My entire point is that there was no artistic decision made either way, simply the default. An artistic decision would have been purposely making the gender split 50-50 in a realm where it usually is not so. I am, for what it's worth, defending that lack of an artistic decision to champion sexual equality.

To the second paragraph, I feel the exact same way. It's reflected in my edit of the previous post which was made right after I posted it, and before your post was made. It really is unfortunate that one work cannot advance every cause worth advancing. And I also greatly respect the Giant for being so open about the downsides of his literary decisions. I just personally believe that any author can (and really should) only champion the causes closest to their heart, lest the work itself become muddled or those truly personal beliefs get lost in the pile of activism. Is the gender skew regrettable? Absolutely. But is it a mistake worthy of lessening the overall work? I'd very much disagree with that.

AstralFire

2013-11-06, 03:12 PM

I think you're reading offense against Mr. Burlew where none is intended. Being honest about a work's shortcomings is not lessening it, and everyone here avidly reads it.

HZ514

2013-11-06, 03:25 PM

I think you're reading offense against Mr. Burlew where none is intended. Being honest about a work's shortcomings is not lessening it, and everyone here avidly reads it.

I'm under the impression that I'm defending the work itself, I don't believe anyone is questioning the author or his morals. I'm arguing about the existence of some shortcomings and the weight of others. I'm sure we all thoroughly enjoy the comic, no doubt there. I just enjoy debate is all. I miss it from high school. :smalltongue:

(@Liliet: You made some great points in your last post, I fully intend to respond to it. I'm just on my phone at the moment and I don't believe that sort of response would do your post justice.)

(Edit: phone typos)

gerryq

2013-11-06, 03:32 PM

AstralFire

2013-11-06, 03:38 PM

I just thought of a plausible one. Laurin wants Tarquin to allow her to read his mind about some embarrassing event that she suspects occurred, or about which he is keeping secrets. [Maybe Dwy's theory about Tarquin and Miron!]

Fits with:
- mischievous
- not ultra-important
- annoying to Tarquin who would not do it unless he had to, but within his ability to grant at no real cost
- can be done by the end of the day

Bolding for emphasis. This is a great theory right here, IMO. While I doubt Tarquin would go to the point of outright treachery with his team, there's a possibility he's played them for some personal reason like he did with Malack (talking Malack into delayed gratification).

Liliet

2013-11-06, 04:12 PM

I never said it was an artistic decision, though. My entire point is that there was no artistic decision made either way, simply the default. An artistic decision would have been purposely making the gender split 50-50 in a realm where it usually is not so. I am, for what it's worth, defending that lack of an artistic decision to champion sexual equality.

To the second paragraph, I feel the exact same way. It's reflected in my edit of the previous post which was made right after I posted it, and before your post was made. It really is unfortunate that one work cannot advance every cause worth advancing. And I also greatly respect the Giant for being so open about the downsides of his literary decisions. I just personally believe that any author can (and really should) only champion the causes closest to their heart, lest the work itself become muddled or those truly personal beliefs get lost in the pile of activism. Is the gender skew regrettable? Absolutely. But is it a mistake worthy of lessening the overall work? I'd very much disagree with that.
Wait, what? How is gender split not 50-50 naturally? Do tell!

Also, I haven't seen a single person here say that the Giant did something wrong and the strip is worse for it. I, personally, am saying that some fans are doing something wrong. It is not the comic's fault, the comic merely has some sympthoms of the same disease.

I just thought of a plausible one. Laurin wants Tarquin to allow her to read his mind about some embarrassing event that she suspects occurred, or about which he is keeping secrets. [Maybe Dwy's theory about Tarquin and Miron!]

Fits with:
- mischievous
- not ultra-important
- annoying to Tarquin who would not do it unless he had to, but within his ability to grant at no real cost
- can be done by the end of the day
Wow! That's a good version.

However, it's not extra funny, so to fit in the narrative it has to have some bearing on the plot or expand on Laurin's character... I don't think she'll become a permanent member of the cast... any ideas for plot-critical?