Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries

[Mauve Shirt]

That's right, we've got Roman numerals in our thread titles now!

FYI this thread is going to be SERIES SPOILERS and quite probably unreleased book spoilers as well.

Skin Game: We don't know when it's happening yet.

And I believe the latest discussion topic was Incest Slash? :smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

That's right, we've got Roman numerals in our thread titles now!

FYI this thread is going to be SERIES SPOILERS and quite probably unreleased book spoilers as well.

Skin Game: We don't know when it's happening yet.

And I believe the latest discussion topic was Incest Slash? :smalltongue:

Someone proposed it, but Harry would know damn well how dangerous sex with Thomas would be.

So let's go back to still just-as-innapropriate relationship I root for: Harry/Molly. The Knight and the Lady; together trying to rely on each other to preserve their humanity... so romantic <3

[Soras Teva Gee]

So let's go back to still just-as-innapropriate relationship I root for: Harry/Molly. The Knight and the Lady; together trying to rely on each other to preserve their humanity... so romantic <3

I'm pulling for more "the only one they can let the Mantle do what it wants wit" angle.

What.

Don't look at me like that.

I'll take any Harry/Molly though, he's already been inside her afterall.

[Mauve Shirt]

I don't root for it nearly as much as I did for Murphy/Harry before Cold Days. But it seems the most likely relationship for him to end up in. It won't even be that creepy when he's 200 and she's 178.

[Cikomyr]

I'm pulling for more "the only one they can let the Mantle do what it wants wit" angle.

What.

Don't look at me like that.

I'll take any Harry/Molly though, he's already been inside her afterall.

And she inside him. They've seen each other more naked than anybody else have.

[Philistine]

can I know what are the ship battles in this fanbase?

Harry/Karrin is obvious. Harry/Elaine too, maybe? It's more than likely that there is a number of Harry/Molly shippers as well?


Don't forget the Harry/Thomas. You know they're lurking out there somewhere.

I think we can still do worse. I bet if we really scoured the depths of the intertubes we could find some Harry/Toot-Toot slash and try that on for size. Or Harry/Ferrovax, that's some hot stuff there, yeah baby yeah. Or Harry/Hendricks, because nothing says "dynamo of UST" like mutual loathing and contempt. Or...

I'd better stop, I'm starting to depress myself.

[Rakaydos]

Personally, I want to see Harry invite Ace, Saria, and Molly for a game of bridge.

In particular, I want to see how elaborate the safe passage wording has to be to have both knights an both ladies in the same room, being mildly competitive.

[BRC]

Personally, I want to see Harry invite Ace, Saria, and Molly for a game of bridge.

In particular, I want to see how elaborate the safe passage wording has to be to have both knights an both ladies in the same room, being mildly competitive.

Not very. The Safe Passage oaths and the laws governing guests and hosts are pretty straightforwards.

[The Glyphstone]

I think we can still do worse. I bet if we really scoured the depths of the intertubes we could find some Harry/Toot-Toot slash and try that on for size. Or Harry/Ferrovax, that's some hot stuff there, yeah baby yeah. Or Harry/Hendricks, because nothing says "dynamo of UST" like mutual loathing and contempt. Or...

I'd better stop, I'm starting to depress myself.

I'm not sure what is more horrifying, the slash pairings or the puns you've attached to them.

[Avilan the Grey]

I got one of those hilarious thoughts popping into my head on the bus this morning... If Mab has been going out on excursions to "learn" about humanity (including fashion shopping, rock concerts etc...)... Somehow I got an image of her doing either the Macarena or Gangnam Style... :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

As things stand right now, I am definitely shipping either Harry and Molly, or Harry and Mab.

As for the Mantles... I truly believe the Winter Lady's mantle will render Molly imortal, and quite possible Fairy. My personal guess is that ALL the mantles started as Human. Even the Mothers. I wonder if the original Queens were the actual daughters of the Mothers? The fact that our current queens seems to have taken / been given the mantles at the battle of Hastings tells me they are not the daughters of the mothers, of course. But they in turn were not only twin sisters, they each had a daughter (biologically), that inherited the Lady mantles. And now they are both insane and then dead. Tragic symetry, that...

[Feytalist]

So I guess this thread isn't about how Cold Days is coming anymore, is it? Heheh.


By the way. Wasn't there a new short story or two floating around the place somewhere? As in, post-Cold Days. I don't think I've read that one.

[Socratov]

I think we can still do worse. I bet if we really scoured the depths of the intertubes we could find some Harry/Toot-Toot slash and try that on for size. Or Harry/Ferrovax, that's some hot stuff there, yeah baby yeah. Or Harry/Hendricks, because nothing says "dynamo of UST" like mutual loathing and contempt. Or...

I'd better stop, I'm starting to depress myself.

ok, not slash, but how about Harry/Mavra? pairings with Mavra (and making Poetry at it) is all the rage at the official forums :smallamused:

I even crafted some of the nightmarefuel myself :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[Cikomyr]

Harry/Mother Summer? Wouldn't it be called a May-December Romance?

[hamlet]

Everybody keeps saying that the Queens took their mantles at Hastings based on that one WOJ that says that was the last time they spoke together.

I didn't get that impression so much as a more litaral "that was the last time the two had conversed personally." I don't think that they were mortal sisters but rather that, in terms of the mantles they hold, they are sisters and that the burden of those mantles changed them into what they are today.

Mab has been where she is today for about a thousand years, which says to me that she was there before or about Hastings, but I suspect that she was the Lady before she was the Queen. Mab is older than people give her credit for I suspect.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm not sure what is more horrifying, the slash pairings or the puns you've attached to them.

The puns.

The pairings aren't so bad actually.


Everybody keeps saying that the Queens took their mantles at Hastings based on that one WOJ that says that was the last time they spoke together.

Actually Titania said that in Cold Days so if WOJ its just repeating that.

However fandom taking idle speculation as proven fact and a basis for whatever wild theory they wish... that never happens.

[Avilan the Grey]

Everybody keeps saying that the Queens took their mantles at Hastings based on that one WOJ that says that was the last time they spoke together.

I didn't get that impression so much as a more litaral "that was the last time the two had conversed personally."

It's my own deduction, since not only did they not speak after that, but Mab is "close to 1000 years old" (which actually, for the kind of creature she is, makes her very young) according to both herself and a number of other characters.
Add to this that both Ladies, up to Dresden's age, were Titania's and Mabs biological daughters.

To me, it strongly indicates that the mantles passed then, and made it difficult for them to talk to eachother. But it is pure speculation, of course.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

By the way. Wasn't there a new short story or two floating around the place somewhere? As in, post-Cold Days. I don't think I've read that one.
A rather heart-stabby Molly piece about the aftermath of Harry's death, due to show up in the "Bombshells" anthology.

Excerpt is here (http://www.tor.com/stories/2013/07/dangerous-women-jim-butcher-excerpt)

[hamlet]

It's my own deduction, since not only did they not speak after that, but Mab is "close to 1000 years old" (which actually, for the kind of creature she is, makes her very young) according to both herself and a number of other characters.
Add to this that both Ladies, up to Dresden's age, were Titania's and Mabs biological daughters.

To me, it strongly indicates that the mantles passed then, and made it difficult for them to talk to eachother. But it is pure speculation, of course.


Actually, it's not that Mab is "close to 1000 years old" but that she's "been there for close to 1000 years." "Been there" implies, IMO, in that position not that she's neccessarily a thousand years old.

And where did you find that the Ladies were their biological daughters? I find that they are daughters in the same sense that Mab and Titania are sisters, in the sense that the mantles make them siblings/daughters.

[Avilan the Grey]

Actually, it's not that Mab is "close to 1000 years old" but that she's "been there for close to 1000 years." "Been there" implies, IMO, in that position not that she's neccessarily a thousand years old.

And where did you find that the Ladies were their biological daughters? I find that they are daughters in the same sense that Mab and Titania are sisters, in the sense that the mantles make them siblings/daughters.

Still, It's my impression.
As for the rest, that is my clear impression. Re-reading the passages I am even surer.

[Mauve Shirt]

I got the idea from Titania's outrage that Aurora was her biological daughter. I did not get that same feeling from Maeve/Sarissa, but then Mab's not really the warm and loving sort.
Maybe the queens that are eventually become as attached to the queens that will be.

[Avilan the Grey]

I got the idea from Titania's outrage that Aurora was her biological daughter. I did not get that same feeling from Maeve/Sarissa, but then Mab's not really the warm and loving sort.
Maybe the queens that are eventually become as attached to the queens that will be.

I got the idea that both of them were, especially after Mab almost casually forgives Sarissa for bringing in Iron into her home, and the very very obvious sibling rivalry.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I got the idea that both of them were, especially after Mab almost casually forgives Sarissa for bringing in Iron into her home, and the very very obvious sibling rivalry.

And letting her tool around Winter for centuries.

And just hanging out with her on weekends.

[Mauve Shirt]

Well obviously the two are siblings, and they've been in Mab's "care" for ages. Still not sure it's a biological connection.

[Thrawn183]

I got the idea from Titania's outrage that Aurora was her biological daughter. I did not get that same feeling from Maeve/Sarissa, but then Mab's not really the warm and loving sort.
Maybe the queens that are eventually become as attached to the queens that will be.

Actually, Mab's rage over what happened to Maeve is a pretty important point. I'd say she cares just as much as Titania. Heck, Mab's even criticized for caring at all.


As far as Harry/Molly goes. I see it being pretty binary. Either they're just about perfect for each other, or they never can because that would be giving in to the mantle's and it would ultimately destroy them. Considering the proclivities of the author towards writing unhappy endings for Harry, I'd guess the latter rather than the former.

[Mauve Shirt]

D'OH, you're right about the rage thing obviously, I was thinking specifically about Harry's question to her at the end of Cold days.

Hey guys. Omg. (https://twitter.com/longshotauthor/status/401262762992480256)

[Cikomyr]

Hey guys. Omg. (https://twitter.com/longshotauthor/status/401262762992480256)

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE :smallbiggrin:

[123456789blaaa]

I'm going to try something a little different here. It gets really really annoying to have to keep typing out replies to a bazillion split quotes. Instead of doing that, I'm going to reply to a couple of quotes at a time. When the argument chain from those quotes have been resolved, I'll go back to the next couple and resolve those and so on until the entire debate is finished.


The theory needs to die.

Wait what? Why? I mean, I can understand if you think the theory is terrible and nothing of value would have been lost if it had never existed. I feel that way about a ton of theories. However, what makes it so harmful that it needs to die? :smallconfused:. Why should people of the DF fandom take the time out of their day to quash this theory?


Given that the plans for godhood were evidently only catalyzed years later by chance discovery and that the war only really got hot then... not having time seems a bit minimal. He would already have been two timing stuff as Cowl since he was at Bianca's BBQ beforehand.

Oh and he could do ridiculously harmful things like sell out Harry to the Reds like the Merlin wanted.

And the point you are missing because you are worrying about the in-universe details is that makes a terrible story. The guy that could have been running the show fakes his death to be not running the show just spying on it for vague scheming behind the scenes. What now? That's needlessly complicated plotting for no gain because the guy is a mere data point. You want to do that at least make Simon a character first.

And it repeats yourself after having given the mole storyline a dramatic climax, the butler did it. That story is done.
<snip>


ALL the SC members would called away to fight the war. If he had still been alive, he would have been called out too and wouldn't have been able to go to Chicago. And no, there are no excuses he could make. Something that is so serious it requires the ENTIRE SC is too serious to allow for important muscle to not be there.

Even disregarding that, my two other points hold true. During the war with the Red Court of VAMPIRES, the expert on vampires (who's SC level in power) in the war is dead (along with the entire Brute Squad). The morale isn't exactly going to be raised by this either. Not to mention the problem of disappearing in the middle of the war, forever (remember, he's planning to become a god. He can't go back to the WC) is handily solved by faking his death.

Honestly, I think gaining the power to take out the entire WC by himself outweighs getting to sell Harry out. Besides, Eb, Martha, and LTW became close friends with Simon for a reason. In public, I don't think he's the type to do that sort of thing.

Your points about the Doylist reasons are valid. They're one of the reasons I don't get behind the theory anymore.


I thought she said "Mortal", which could be Changeling.

Although if she said Human then I guess that is proof that the Mantle transforms you. I hope Molly was not especially fond of iron things.

We have no reason to believe that transforming from one type of fairy to another is any easier than turning from human to fairy, so I guess that is another point in the "The Mantle makes you Sidhe" column.


The other question I had is, **unintelligible**…when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**. But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

**Audience laughter**

But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved **unintelligible** as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. Probably, when you’ve gone so far down the road, just pure power is madness, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience.

What I get from this is that she's effectively a Changeling. The more she gives in to her Mantle, the more of her soul she loses until she's gone.


Actually... Lily could have become a Nixie not a Sidhe.
<snip>


Per the RPG, s Sidhe is a class of beings, not a separate Fae race. Cat Sidhe is a Malk Sidhe, the Erlking is a goblin Sidhe, Jenny Greenteeth is a nixie Sidhe, etc etc etc. Basically, a Sidhe is an exemplar of a particular Fae race.

Unrelated:


LaFortier was an emaciated man of medium height and build. His cheekbones stood out grotesquely from his sunken face, and his bulging eyes looked a couple of sizes too large. He had no hair at all, not even eyebrows, and on the whole it gave him a skeletal look. When he spoke, his voice came out in a resonant basso, deep and warm and smooth.

Does anyone else think this description seems a little Fomor-ish?

[Mauve Shirt]

Aren't the Fomor fish dudes though?

[123456789blaaa]

Aren't the Fomor fish dudes though?

The Fomor are a diverse group of different banished peoples. They were banished to the sea and obviously take a page from Lovecraft's (who was onto something in the DF by WoJ) Deep Ones. While they may have similarities, we don't know how fishy they are. One type of Fomor may be a giant frog-fish, another might look like a slightly wet human. Here's a description of one from Aftermath:


The man was of medium height, with sallow skin and greasy, straight black hair that hung past his shoulders. His lips were very thick and his mouth very wide, almost to the point of deformity. His large eyes were dark and watery and bulging, his nose sunken, as small as any I had ever seen. He was soaking wet and naked, his limbs scrawny and long, his hands very, very wide. Except for the hair, I couldn’t help but compare him to a frog—a sullen, vicious frog.

I'm not sure what type of Fomor this is-if he's a lord of their kind or a low-level lackey or what-but he's specifically not mortal. In Aftermath, one of the grafted human slaves (the Fomor graft ectoplasmic fish parts into mortals) calls the Fomor in the above quote "lord" and we know from the short story Even Hand-which I haven't read but have read about-that there is a class of Fomor called "lords". It may just be a generic way that the slaves refer to any Fomor though. Anyways, I specifically noticed the LaFortier connection because the description here reminded me of another description. I had to go through the books to find out which one (I actually noticed a long while ago. This was just the time I was motivated enough to go and actually look for the quotes).

While we're at it, I'd like to point out another similar description:


Someone shoved open a door that showed a set of stairs behind it, and a small man in an expensive grey suit emerged from it. He was sort of frog faced—he had the mouth of someone much larger than he, almost grotesquely thick and wide. He had fine black hair, all limp and stringy, and someone had cut it with the ancient but trusty salad-bowl method. He had bulgy, watery eyes that required extra-large, wide-rimmed glasses to properly encircle.

This was of Madrigal's assistant, the jann (Scion of a Jinn and human) Glau. Noticing any similarities?

EDIT: And before someone says something about how his appearance is caused by his Scion nature, I'd like to point out that Jinn are beings from the Quran and are spirits of "smokeless fire" (go look at their Wiki entry. I don't think I'm allowed to expand upon them here given their religious origins). Given that Scion exhibit traits in common with their supernatural parent, I see absolutely no reason for Glau to be wet and froggy. In fact I'd say it's more evidence of Fomor stuff.

[Cikomyr]

Where can I find a compilation of all the short stories of the Dresdenverse?

[123456789blaaa]

Where can I find a compilation of all the short stories of the Dresdenverse?

AFAIK the DF Wikipedia entry has all of them.

EDIT: Assuming you meant compilation in the sense of a list of the short stories. If you meant a compilation of the short stories themselves than the Side Jobs book has all of them except for Curses, AAAA Wizardry, Even Hand, the Bigfoot short story trilogy, and Bombshells.

[Sinfonian]

Where can I find a compilation of all the short stories of the Dresdenverse?

The book Side Jobs has most of them, up to when it was published. I know there's others, but not when/if another compilation is planned.

Edit: The post above mine has a much better answer.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Wait what? Why? I mean, I can understand if you think the theory is terrible and nothing of value would have been lost if it had never existed. I feel that way about a ton of theories. However, what makes it so harmful that it needs to die? :smallconfused:. Why should people of the DF fandom take the time out of their day to quash this theory?

Because its not a theory.

Its a glorified blank slate convenient to slap any old speculations on who's greatest virtue is "hah no one would think of that now would we they, how clever!" and is proud of how little it has to go on which is generally not a virtue.

Its the exact sort of things that makes fandoms just a will onto themselves. Preaching to the choirs that spout it back until subtlety it warps into an zealous unreality. Seen it a million times, its the chief failing of all fandom.

Compare who shot Harry. The obvious and well set up guy for it did. Now there was a twist on why, but so help me not many people were guessing it and we were succinctly denied anything to supect it.

That's like a microcosm of how big revelations go. The highly evident and well foreshadowed stuff most of us at least allowed for. Or the stuff nobody guessed because it wasn't there to guess.

For Cowl there simply aren't any good possibilities. Justin is just one for which there is a smidgeon evidence in the form of Bob. It derives directly from Cowl's own actions. There are other possibilities for that aplenty, but that just leaves us with essentially no evidence because nothing distinctive.

That's all well and good but it means no "theory" really can be built from Cowl's own actions. That means there is no answer to figure out, its just guessing. Then speculating into existence why "X could be Cowl", when it needs to be "Cowl is X because Cowl did [...]"


ALL the SC members would called away to fight the war. If he had still been alive, he would have been called out too and wouldn't have been able to go to Chicago. And no, there are no excuses he could make. Something that is so serious it requires the ENTIRE SC is too serious to allow for important muscle to not be there.


You're thinking too small here. You're talking about the coach having to show up for game time... I'm talking about the coach actively sabotaging the whole season.



Honestly, I think gaining the power to take out the entire WC by himself outweighs getting to sell Harry out. Besides, Eb, Martha, and LTW became close friends with Simon for a reason. In public, I don't think he's the type to do that sort of thing.

I latch on to "the type" here?

For someone we've never met and have no personality data on? That's the sort of convenient blank slate thinking I'm talking about.


Per the RPG, s Sidhe is a class of beings, not a separate Fae race. Cat Sidhe is a Malk Sidhe, the Erlking is a goblin Sidhe, Jenny Greenteeth is a nixie Sidhe, etc etc etc. Basically, a Sidhe is an exemplar of a particular Fae race.

Which raises an issue between the standard mostly human with white hair used to fill out scenes... and Cat Sidhe. Okay it can be used both ways, but Lily didn't gain green teeth or look anything particularly aquatic. Which can't be avoided under an exemplar example model for the title.

And that also makes the Winter-to-Summer issue worse.

So it doesn't help really with the overwriting the base fae type.


Aren't the Fomor fish dudes though?

Who are totally not from Innsmouth of course.

[Mauve Shirt]

I think Soras is Cowl because Soras and Cowl both rank similarly in crankiness.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think Soras is Cowl because Soras and Cowl both rank similarly in crankiness.

My master plan has been revealed...

Dorosh!

Honestly its just because the more I hang around the more I see the same patterns repeated over and over again. Fandoms should drop the plural because they're all the same damn thing.

Also I used to run a political forum... it shows.

[123456789blaaa]

Because its not a theory.

Its a glorified blank slate convenient to slap any old speculations on who's greatest virtue is "hah no one would think of that now would we they, how clever!" and is proud of how little it has to go on which is generally not a virtue.

Its the exact sort of things that makes fandoms just a will onto themselves. Preaching to the choirs that spout it back until subtlety it warps into an zealous unreality. Seen it a million times, its the chief failing of all fandom.

Compare who shot Harry. The obvious and well set up guy for it did. Now there was a twist on why, but so help me not many people were guessing it and we were succinctly denied anything to supect it.

That's like a microcosm of how big revelations go. The highly evident and well foreshadowed stuff most of us at least allowed for. Or the stuff nobody guessed because it wasn't there to guess.

For Cowl there simply aren't any good possibilities. Justin is just one for which there is a smidgeon evidence in the form of Bob. It derives directly from Cowl's own actions. There are other possibilities for that aplenty, but that just leaves us with essentially no evidence because nothing distinctive.

That's all well and good but it means no "theory" really can be built from Cowl's own actions. That means there is no answer to figure out, its just guessing. Then speculating into existence why "X could be Cowl", when it needs to be "Cowl is X because Cowl did [...]"

Okay...so it's how the idea is talked about as a legitimate prediction of future events in the book that bothers you? Like, would you still think the idea needed to die if it was just brought up as a thought that's fun to speculate about (but is very unlikely to actually come true)?

I mean, as I said before, I don't believe Simon=Cowl anymore. I still like the idea and championed it previously (Simon=Cowl was the first theo-uh "thingy" I actually worked seriously on. While the originator is unknown, my name is credited in the Reference Topic). This is because it's lends itself quite well to speculation, it's fun to find all these little connections even if they won't amount to much.



You're thinking too small here. You're talking about the coach having to show up for game time... I'm talking about the coach actively sabotaging the whole season.

How? He's on the SC remember. The higher you go, the more and more restricted you get. Peabody could do stuff (very subtle stuff) because he was unnoticed. Simon is a public figure in a high office. That would be why he adopted the Cowl persona and went out instead of corroding the WC from within like Peabody.


I latch on to "the type" here?

For someone we've never met and have no personality data on? That's the sort of convenient blank slate thinking I'm talking about.

We can infer things even if we don't have direct data. Even if I had no personality data on Harry Dresden, just from meeting Michael and Sanya and Murphy (and knowing he's friends with them), I know he's probably not the type to sell someone out.


Which raises an issue between the standard mostly human with white hair used to fill out scenes... and Cat Sidhe. Okay it can be used both ways, but Lily didn't gain green teeth or look anything particularly aquatic. Which can't be avoided under an exemplar example model for the title.

And that also makes the Winter-to-Summer issue worse.

So it doesn't help really with the overwriting the base fae type.

Are the resulting Fae from Mantle "corruption" (not really the right word) Sidhe? I assumed they were a unique type of Faerie that are uniqe to the Mantle holders. So it doesn't matter if you're a human or a Changeling or a Malk before you get the Mantle. Once you give into it you turn into a Mantle!Faerie. I'm not at all sure though.

On the humans with white hair...I'm not sure. Redcap looked like that except for his cap. Perhaps all of the "stock" fae are actually different types that just aren't as different as like, a Rawhead and a Malk? Or maybe they're actually grown-up Little Folk?:


Q: How big will Toot get?
A: Depends on how much influence he has in the world. That’s how the sidhe gain their size and power. Mab wasn’t always as big as she is now.

Side note: this quote seems to imply that Mab was originally a Little Folk. This seems to contradict her being human (it is just an implication though so even if he originally meant that, he isn't bound to it).

Wait, am I arguing with you or not? :smallconfused:


Who are totally not from Innsmouth of course.

Thought on the similarities between the quotes I posted? Am I just imagining things (note: if you say yes I'll probably start debating with you)?


My master plan has been revealed...

Dorosh!

Honestly its just because the more I hang around the more I see the same patterns repeated over and over again. Fandoms should drop the plural because they're all the same damn thing.

Also I used to run a political forum... it shows.

:smalleek:

I understand what you mean. I suppose the difference here is that I don't really mind the patterns if they're not actually pushing the fandom towards death or permanent horribleness. Oh I'll get frustrated and argue against them but I don't think it's necessary to go out of your way to quash them (for a fandom that's mostly for fun like the DF one. For something like a political forum things may be different). If everybody on the DF boards started parroting and plugging Simon=Cowl as a legitimate prediction, I'd probably try and quash it. Since I mostly only see it pop up a few times every few months in a few scattered threads though...

[Soras Teva Gee]

Okay...so it's how the idea is talked about as a legitimate prediction of future events in the book that bothers you? Like, would you still think the idea needed to die if it was just brought up as a thought that's fun to speculate about (but is very unlikely to actually come true)?

I mean, as I said before, I don't believe Simon=Cowl anymore. I still like the idea and championed it previously (Simon=Cowl was the first theo-uh "thingy" I actually worked seriously on. While the originator is unknown, my name is credited in the Reference Topic). This is because it's lends itself quite well to speculation, it's fun to find all these little connections even if they won't amount to much.

For the first not to sound like a jerk but... well I know better. That makes a nice line for you (and you alone) maybe but does not actually say anything about reality in general. Not serious has a different rhythm to it that is well more apparent.

For the second again not to sound like a jerk but... I could literally not care less about your personal stake in this. You say you don't support it, but still are trying to patch holes in it... the latter is what I care about. That is also why I responded with "the theory needs to die" in the first place.



How? He's on the SC remember. The higher you go, the more and more restricted you get. Peabody could do stuff (very subtle stuff) because he was unnoticed. Simon is a public figure in a high office. That would be why he adopted the Cowl persona and went out instead of corroding the WC from within like Peabody.

Umm no. Access to authority is very different from exerting authority.

Your idea "can" be the story and there is a certain level of inertia in any system, but it is not an absolute universal axiom of all stories. Counterpoint any case where an authority figure in any franchise gets results. Or you know real life policy changes of all sorts. Nor does division into the council change this, watch reporting on bodies like the US Supreme Court for an example. 4-3 is more potent then even a 5-4 split.

So you cannot presume this.


We can infer things even if we don't have direct data. Even if I had no personality data on Harry Dresden, just from meeting Michael and Sanya and Murphy (and knowing he's friends with them), I know he's probably not the type to sell someone out.

On the basis of Michael, Sanya, and Murphy... I can get a range of Harry, Charity, and Molly.

And for your conclusion I would need to give the first triad the assumption they can can judge that sort of quality with high accuracy and only associate with that quality. And that requires quite a bit of knowledge about them. I'm not sure I can assert that, especially with (twice divorced) Murphy who has made bad calls on people. So I can't grant that without knowing anything about Harry.

Inferring needs to have very good support. And it needs to be rock solid to have a place in theory and not be pure speculation.


Are the resulting Fae from Mantle "corruption" (not really the right word) Sidhe? I assumed they were a unique type of Faerie that are uniqe to the Mantle holders. So it doesn't matter if you're a human or a Changeling or a Malk before you get the Mantle. Once you give into it you turn into a Mantle!Faerie. I'm not at all sure though.

Yes and the question in this line is whether or not Molly is still human or not as Winter Lady. Or perhaps more pertinently whether she can still lie or not. And the suggestion was made that because Lily was a Changeling the Mantle represented her making her Choice to become fae. Thus Lily not being particularly nixie-ish is pertinent, and by extension that Molly is "probably" a full on fairy now.

Since you brought it up though, I'd suggest that given that Mab elected Molly and Sarissa as her vessel options... I'd imagine something like a Malk can't get the Lady Mantle, or Mab would have lots and lots of options. Track record would suggest the Lady Mantle transforms human (ladies) and doesn't care about mere details like whatever else you are. Though not knowing the details its impossible to confirm.



Side note: this quote seems to imply that Mab was originally a Little Folk. This seems to contradict her being human (it is just an implication though so even if he originally meant that, he isn't bound to it).

Wait, am I arguing with you or not? :smallconfused:

In this case I suspect not... and as noted Mab said "mortal" so she was at least as human as a Changeling at some point. (Though heck could be some other Scion type for all we know!)



Thought on the similarities between the quotes I posted? Am I just imagining things (note: if you say yes I'll probably start debating with you)?

Honestly I didn't even follow that, I just say Deep Ones instead of Fomor inside my head all the time. More/less since Side Jobs and Marcone's short story... which is infuriatingly NOT in Side Jobs.


I understand what you mean. I suppose the difference here is that I don't really mind the patterns if they're not actually pushing the fandom towards death or permanent horribleness.


I hold the view that the mindset always is pushing towards that single destination, just its not always past a saturation point. The older and hoarier a fandom get though well... that's really another rant about what fandoms have become a zombie horde in need of a good tank driving over them.

[Thrawn183]

D'OH, you're right about the rage thing obviously, I was thinking specifically about Harry's question to her at the end of Cold days.

But... this is the internet.

You've doomed us all!

[123456789blaaa]

Only replying to the first two quotes as before. Going to reply to non-debate quotes tomorrow (I'm pressed for time but really wanted to answer the first two).


For the first not to sound like a jerk but... well I know better. That makes a nice line for you (and you alone) maybe but does not actually say anything about reality in general. Not serious has a different rhythm to it that is well more apparent.

I do not understand what you are trying to say here :smallconfused:.


For the second again not to sound like a jerk but... I could literally not care less about your personal stake in this. You say you don't support it, but still are trying to patch holes in it... the latter is what I care about. That is also why I responded with "the theory needs to die" in the first place.


I believe when I critiqued the Justin=Cowl theory you attempted to patch holes in it as well. Are you a supporter of the theory?

As I said before this entire debate is framed in terms of "Justin=Cowl" vs "Simon=Cowl". I'm aware that all of the "patching's" are not solid. Even the fact that so many patching's are needed shows why it's not a good theory. I'm only doing so because I believe the "patching's" I produce will be better than the patching's you produce for Justin=Cowl. We're measuring the plausibility against each other.

If we weren't then I wouldn't even bother.

[Mauve Shirt]

The Count = Simon, 'cause Simon totes a vampire (expert), Soras = Cowl (see previous explanation) and Justin is dead.

[Cikomyr]

Can I have a rundown of these theories so I get some idea what you are nerdbitching about?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I do not understand what you are trying to say here :smallconfused:.

I do not grant and in fact deny the premise that this is merely idle speculation in isolation, which is something different. Cowl is secretly Abe Lincoln would be non-serious.



I believe when I critiqued the Justin=Cowl theory you attempted to patch holes in it as well. Are you a supporter of the theory?

The core of Justin = Cowl is simply and just this:

1. Harry had Bob.
2. Bob was Kemmlers.
3. Justin is the only one who would know 1 and 2. ('cept Harry)
4. Cowl knew 1 and 2, given point 3 therefore...

Now there are many possibilities so this would hardly stand up in court.

Still one must either show from the text why these points are wrong... or must show an even greater amount of similarly "hard evidence" that identifies Cowl as someone else.

And their really isn't anyone else. Elaine may know Bob for example ergo point 1, but doesn't interact with him in either book. While Bob knew her, he also knew Molly as an observer. We have even less to suggest someone blabbed to her about point 2. We can't extend her both but there's some not-implausibility there. Everyone else you need speculation to even plausibly get them in a position to know.

That leaves establishing Cowl as doing something identifying that can be tied to someone else.

And frankly I only recall patching in terms of Archangel that Justin makes an ample candidate for that affair from the little we know and other stuff outside Dead Beat. That's all in the strictest sense... irrelevant speculation since it all didn't actually involve Cowl. Cowl is an easy bogeyman to put behind all mysterious events whomever he is. Given that and his prescence in books 3 and 9 makes him a reasonable foreshadowing for a series Big Bad, presuming there is one. We will see more of him.

None of that really helps ID him though.

Though in similar "soft evidence" terms Justin is rather conspicuous in his mentions but not presence. This far in and we only get two small scenes, neither of is big fight between the two. And Harry admits to fuzzy memories in the time frame. And Justin was messing around with Outsiders? Now that's conspicuous loose ends awaiting explanation. We should see more of him.

Tying those loose ends together is just applying Occam. Though in addition to simplicity can make for some interesting book ends to Harry's career in addition to the drama of the reveal by maxing the impact on Harry.


As I said before this entire debate is framed in terms of "Justin=Cowl" vs "Simon=Cowl".

And I've framed it that there are no other suspects. Simon is almost literally interchangeable with any half-mentioned background detail persons.

There's nothing to his case, because there's seriously nothing to anyone's. The entire notion of painting him as a suspect is false premise mixed with confirmation bias.

If I HAD to pick a distant number 2 it would be Cristos from sheer lack of options or maybe Kemmler himself trolling like a boss.

[Avilan the Grey]

It occurs to me that I am desperately hoping Cowl is a new character, since it will annoy a ton of people who are fighting for the "obvious truth" about who he most be.

Also, I cannot understand why he "must" be a character we have already met...

[Feytalist]

Also, I cannot understand why he "must" be a character we have already met...

Well. We have already met him. He's Cowl :smallbiggrin:

But I agree with this, frankly. He's got a name. He's got a personality and an agenda, although that last is admittedly fairly nebulous. He's a complete character. He doesn't need to be another complete character as well.

[Forum Explorer]

It occurs to me that I am desperately hoping Cowl is a new character, since it will annoy a ton of people who are fighting for the "obvious truth" about who he most be.

Also, I cannot understand why he "must" be a character we have already met...

If anything I'd guess that he was another Warden, perhaps an old friend on Justin. Which makes sense considering they both abandoned the Council. I'd even go so far as to argue that they were actually working together in the 'Black Council'. Or left the White Council at around the same time.

[Mauve Shirt]

Some people find wild speculation fun. I mean, what do you guys want to do in these threads otherwise? Between books, world and plot speculation is all we've got!

[datalaughing]

Some people find wild speculation fun. I mean, what do you guys want to do in these threads otherwise? Between books, world and plot speculation is all we've got!

Agreed, without wild, out of the box, completely unsupported theories, there's nothing to break up the monotony. There's a reason I'd rather be in a Dresden Files thread than a politics/current events thread.

And now to attack all theories at the same time, any argument made based on personality (like "Simon was probably a decent guy") or knowledge (like "how else did Cowl know about Bob?") was invalidated by Cold Days. If Nemesis has infected someone, then their personality beforehand is irrelevant, because they're not in the driver's seat anymore. If Nemesis has infected someone, then they have a source of information from outside our reality and its limits. There's no telling what Nemesis, through its agents is capable of knowing. If Justin was taken by Nemesis, then the knowledge of Bob, his history, and what he can do could be universal to all of Nemesis' servants. That's not even accounting for the fact that Mab knew Harry had Bob (or at least Cold Days implies this very heavily), and if she knew that, then it was obviously possible for it to be known.

[Cikomyr]

Do you think it possible that Justin was actually a decent, albeit hard, person before he turned evil? After all, if I remember right, we ONLY have Harry's perspective on the events that led him to beleive Justin is a bad evil wizzzard.

[Avilan the Grey]

Do you think it possible that Justin was actually a decent, albeit hard, person before he turned evil? After all, if I remember right, we ONLY have Harry's perspective on the events that led him to beleive Justin is a bad evil wizzzard.

Well all I know is that the reason he picked Harry AND Elaine was because he was planning to build an army. Of starborn. To fight either Nemesis specifically or all outsiders.

That gives me the idea that he was not Palpatine from the start.

[Cikomyr]

Well all I know is that the reason he picked Harry AND Elaine was because he was planning to build an army. Of starborn. To fight either Nemesis specifically or all outsiders.

That gives me the idea that he was not Palpatine from the start.

Maybe he never became Evilz in the first place? Maybe he suspected Harry was under the Adversary's control and wanted to check him up?

[Avilan the Grey]

Maybe he never became Evilz in the first place? Maybe he suspected Harry was under the Adversary's control and wanted to check him up?

Wouldn't surprise me. Epic tragedy: Both thinks the other is tainted, tries to kill eachother.

[Cikomyr]

Wouldn't surprise me. Epic tragedy: Both thinks the other is tainted, tries to kill eachother.

Probably The Enemy's greatest MO

[Rakaydos]

Well all I know is that the reason he picked Harry AND Elaine was because he was planning to build an army. Of starborn. To fight either Nemesis specifically or all outsiders.

That gives me the idea that he was not Palpatine from the start.

On the other hand, consider this- Given you're messing around with outsiders, and given that you're not personally suicidal- wouldnt you want to make sure your apprentices could wield the whip hand over the invincible outsiders (in your name) as well as you could?

If you just set the outsiders loose, all you would get is Empty Night, and noone (here) wants that. But an army of Starborn would be able to leash outsiders, bind them to their will, and thus make them do useful work that doesnt end up destroying existance.

[Mauve Shirt]

Two teenagers aren't exactly an army. Were they going to make a huge amount of starborn babies?

[Soras Teva Gee]

It occurs to me that I am desperately hoping Cowl is a new character, since it will annoy a ton of people who are fighting for the "obvious truth" about who he most be.

Also, I cannot understand why he "must" be a character we have already met...

He doesn't have to be at all.

Generally I'd say speaking the audience isn't given the clues by the writer you need to solve a mystery. Revelations tend to be of new material, not something you could be reasonably expect to arrive at.

We've already seen this with Ghost Story in particular. The missing scene from Changes is between chapters with no indication of its presence. I particularly miss that we didn't get those little words.



If Nemesis has infected someone, then their personality beforehand is irrelevant, because they're not in the driver's seat anymore. If Nemesis has infected someone, then they have a source of information from outside our reality and its limits. There's no telling what Nemesis, through its agents is capable of knowing.

Its rather premature for that conclusion. We cannot quite establish what Nemesis actually means. Cat Sith apparently became a weak sock-puppet, but Maeve by all indication was exerting some of her own will and still at full power. Lea (arguably) took time to succumb and the result was a split personality during Mab's epic healing.

We as yet cannot judge the extent of Nemesis or its particular rules all that well.

I infer that infection is not particularly easy nor results in a hive mind like unity. Oh maybe it can break you, but with downsides and probably a fair bit of effort. Otherwise well... it wouldn't need schemes to make chaos, just spread like any good virus and do nothing until it just has overwhelming force.

There's some limiting factor but what we don't know yet.

[BRC]

Considering that Nemesis allowed Maeve to tell direct lies, its influence is powerful enough to, at least in some ways, overwhelm the base nature of the infected individual.

That said, I don't think it neccessarily changes their personality any more than it has to.

The goal of Nemesis seems to be the spread of chaos and disruption of Order, with the Outsiders being the nastiest footsoldiers.
As I see it, Nemesis' corruption is insidious. Maeve schemed and lied because Maeve was, like most Faeries, a schemer at heart. Aurora was kind at heart, when corrupted that kindness became a desire to end the cycle at all costs using the Stone table.

That said, I would argue that while the Outsiders have some form of Hive mind, corrupted individuals do not. Considering what we now know about Winter's role as guardian of the outer gates, Aurora's plan, while it would have sucked for everybody on earth, would only have strengthened Winter. If we assume Nemesis' goal is to get the Outsiders through the outer gates, Aurora's plan was counterproductive except as a generic disruption of the established order. I think the Corruption just puts the idea that changing EVERYTHING is a good idea into your head.

[Anderlith]

Like I've said before. Cowl may not be a person we have reasonably met before in the books. But I believe there has to be a more direct connection between Cowl & Harry than just an evil guy trying to do dirty deeds (done dirty cheap)

Now that does not mean the Harry has to have known Cowl. It just means that, for the sake of interesting plot & tropes, they have to have some kind of connection.

This is why I believe that Martha Liberty is Kumori. I don't know who Cowl is or any good evidence as to who he is. But I will speculate the heck out of Martha being Kumori.

[Avilan the Grey]

Two teenagers aren't exactly an army. Were they going to make a huge amount of starborn babies?

I assume he was constantly looking for more. Starborn are rare, after all.

[Avilan the Grey]

Hey... WMA:

So... Skin Game.
Nicky and Harry team up to steal something from Hades' super-safe, ordered by Mab. With a name like that, my bet is on the Golden Fleece.

[Lamech]

Cowl is an artificially created human. A Homonculi! Not only that he is a time traveling wizard! Who created him? A time traveling Wizard obviously! Know any time traveling evil wizards? YES! COWL! Cowl went back in time and created himself.

I'll make a diagram
o---<--<---
vaaaaaaaaa^
|aaaaaaaaa|
vaaaaaaaaa|
o-->Cowl---o
|
v
Cowl (older)
:smallcool:

[The Glyphstone]

Like I've said before. Cowl may not be a person we have reasonably met before in the books. But I believe there has to be a more direct connection between Cowl & Harry than just an evil guy trying to do dirty deeds (done dirty cheap)

Now that does not mean the Harry has to have known Cowl. It just means that, for the sake of interesting plot & tropes, they have to have some kind of connection.

This is why I believe that Martha Liberty is Kumori. I don't know who Cowl is or any good evidence as to who he is. But I will speculate the heck out of Martha being Kumori.

Wild, unsupportable nonsense. Kumori is clearly Charity Carpenter, and Cowl is the split personality of Waldo Butters.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Cowl is an artificially created human. A Homonculi! Not only that he is a time traveling wizard! Who created him? A time traveling Wizard obviously! Know any time traveling evil wizards? YES! COWL! Cowl went back in time and created himself.

I'll make a diagram
o---<--<---
vaaaaaaaaa^
|aaaaaaaaa|
vaaaaaaaaa|
o-->Cowl---o
|
v
Cowl (older)
:smallcool:
I support this theory.

Wild, unsupportable nonsense. Kumori is clearly Charity Carpenter, and Cowl is the split personality of Waldo Butters.
On the other hand, this makes sense; Bob split into Good Bob and Evil Bob, and Waldo is the keeper of Bob, ergo one would expect Waldo to split into Good Butters and Evil Butters. :smallbiggrin:

As a side note: official listing of the Dangerous Women anthology... (http://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2013/news-roundup-2) am I the only one who didn't notice that "Bombshells" is going to be a novella???? Eep!

[BRC]

Guys, Cowl is clearly Harry's original trenchcoat, having reformed itself into a hooded cloak, Kumori is the ghost of the Blue Beetle possessing a human body. Having died and been ressurected by Mike the Mechanic so many times, Kumori seeks to end Death itself.

For more evidence

The second Blue Beetle, the one active when Harry got his car, was Ted Kord.

Kumori

[Cikomyr]

Cowl is an artificially created human. A Homonculi! Not only that he is a time traveling wizard! Who created him? A time traveling Wizard obviously! Know any time traveling evil wizards? YES! COWL! Cowl went back in time and created himself.

I'll make a diagram
o---<--<---
vaaaaaaaaa^
|aaaaaaaaa|
vaaaaaaaaa|
o-->Cowl---o
|
v
Cowl (older)
:smallcool:

There's a good RPG plot in there

[Cristo Meyers]

There's a good RPG plot in there

Please don't give my GM any ideas...his stuff is already pretty far out of left field...I'd really rather not have to try and wrap my head around the Black Court former Deacon being his own father. :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm pretty sure it's also one or two plots in Doctor Who.

[The Glyphstone]

Please don't give my GM any ideas...his stuff is already pretty far out of left field...I'd really rather not have to try and wrap my head around the Black Court former Deacon being his own father. :smalltongue:

Could be worse. It could be an All You Zombies loop. The Second Law might not apply if you're turning a human into a different human, and it certainly doesn't apply to shapechanging yourself.

[Thrawn183]

Cowl is secretly Thomas. He's done it before.

[Rakaydos]

I will say, that -IF- Martha Liberty is Kumori, Simon would have to be Cowl.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

All this Simon/Cowl talk just makes me think of American Idol.

/rimshot

(Or is he no longer on the show? Am I showing my age?)

[123456789blaaa]

Before we continue the debate Soras, could you summarize what we're debating about exactly? Could you also summarize what you believe to be my position in this debate? This is getting a little confusing.

In the meantime:



<snip>
In this case I suspect not... and as noted Mab said "mortal" so she was at least as human as a Changeling at some point. (Though heck could be some other Scion type for all we know!).


The other question I had is, **unintelligible**…when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**. But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

**Audience laughter**

But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved **unintelligible** as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. Probably, when you’ve gone so far down the road, just pure power is madness, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience.

C'mon Soras I posted this before in this very thread. You get a F! :smalltongue:.


Honestly I didn't even follow that, I just say Deep Ones instead of Fomor inside my head all the time. More/less since Side Jobs and Marcone's short story... which is infuriatingly NOT in Side Jobs.

I'm not sure that's wise. The Fomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians) are part of RL myth after all. From the little we've seen, the Fomor draw from a wide variety of sources (including the Deep Ones of Lovecraft). I don't remember the Deep Ones being part Fae for example.



I hold the view that the mindset always is pushing towards that single destination, just its not always past a saturation point. The older and hoarier a fandom get though well... that's really another rant about what fandoms have become a zombie horde in need of a good tank driving over them.

I'm not sure a "fandom" can become permanently anything. Particular forums maybe but a fandom is just a word for the concept of fans who get together. There will always be fans of a particular thing who are intelligent and rational and nice (assuming the fandom was great in the beginning). You just need to move to newer and greener pastures (and maybe wait a while).


The Count = Simon, 'cause Simon totes a vampire (expert), Soras = Cowl (see previous explanation) and Justin is dead.

Justin isn't just dead, he's D-E-D dead (but that doesn't mean he still can't be alive per WoJ).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Before we continue the debate Soras, could you summarize what we're debating about exactly? Could you also summarize what you believe to be my position in this debate? This is getting a little confusing.

If you're confused you could just stop throwin up defenses ya'know.



C'mon Soras I posted this before in this very thread. You get a F! :smalltongue:.

Pfft I focus on what people write for themselves.

And while interesting it would seem putting multiple sentences together that Butcher is using the word "human" to include Changelings and it seems ones that weren't but became fae. If I'm following he's specifying the Erlking as never-a-changeling but Mab.... could be either.

You know why never lying means jack ****? Because english is so damn ambigous to start with!



I'm not sure that's wise. The Fomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians) are part of RL myth after all. From the little we've seen, the Fomor draw from a wide variety of sources (including the Deep Ones of Lovecraft). I don't remember the Deep Ones being part Fae for example.

Well hey neither were the Old Ones actually magical, that was kinda the point. Didn't stop the Dresdenverse.

Other then being driven into the sea the Fomor there in wikipedia do not seem particularly fishy.

I'm not unaware, I just recognize a mythos patch job when I see one.

[Mauve Shirt]

Both Mab and Erl were human by that quote. Humans, not changelings. And that's excellent!
I like the idea that Molly whips winter into shape as she would a bunch of younger human siblings. But we know she can't have THAT.

[123456789blaaa]

If you're confused you could just stop throwin up defenses ya'know.

I am. That's why I'm asking you now. I was originally going to type up a huge mega-reply but I could sense that it probably wouldn't advance the discussion. I want to make sure we're both understanding each other.


Pfft I focus on what people write for themselves.

And while interesting it would seem putting multiple sentences together that Butcher is using the word "human" to include Changelings and it seems ones that weren't but became fae. If I'm following he's specifying the Erlking as never-a-changeling but Mab.... could be either.

You know why never lying means jack ****? Because english is so damn ambigous to start with!

It's ambiguous yeah. However:


So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once.

A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**.

But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans…

His first sentence states that a lot of the Fae were once human. At this point it's unclear whether he's including Scions in that definition.

His second statement states that many started out as Scions.

His third statement though, seems to seperate Scions from the definition of "human".


Well hey neither were the Old Ones actually magical, that was kinda the point. Didn't stop the Dresdenverse.

Other then being driven into the sea the Fomor there in wikipedia do not seem particularly fishy.

I'm not unaware, I just recognize a mythos patch job when I see one.

Assuming I'm not getting wrong info, their name also means "dark of the sea". But okay.

[Avilan the Grey]

Assuming I'm not getting wrong info, their name also means "dark of the sea". But okay.

I thought it was made very clear in Ghost Story that the Fomor is made up by beings from all over that took refuge in the seas after being driven out from wherever they were driven out from at different points in time. The majority might be "fish people" simply because it might have been those who let the others in, a long long time ago. But the Fomor, these days, consists of everything from (former land-living) giants to fish-people and everything in between.

The way the Fomor has come to be also guarantees that they basically have grudges towards every other supernatural group in the Dresdenverse. Also, now they are almost openly attacking humans, abducting children to bolster their numbers, for example.

...And seriously, nobody commented on my brilliant theory about what it is that will be stolen in Skin Game? :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

I thought it was made very clear in Ghost Story that the Fomor is made up by beings from all over that took refuge in the seas after being driven out from wherever they were driven out from at different points in time. The majority might be "fish people" simply because it might have been those who let the others in, a long long time ago. But the Fomor, these days, consists of everything from (former land-living) giants to fish-people and everything in between.

The way the Fomor has come to be also guarantees that they basically have grudges towards every other supernatural group in the Dresdenverse. Also, now they are almost openly attacking humans, abducting children to bolster their numbers, for example.

...And seriously, nobody commented on my brilliant theory about what it is that will be stolen in Skin Game? :smalltongue:

At least one person beat you to it already back in the other thread:smallcool::

Yes please indeed.

But it's called Skin Game because it involves Harry teaming up with (possibly) Nicky and the Nickelheads to steal the Golden Fleece from Hades.

Not sure if the Fleece has been WoJ'd or not.

[Aidan305]

At least one person beat you to it already back in the other thread:smallcool::


Not sure if the Fleece has been WoJ'd or not.

Don't think it has, but it's a reasonable assumption based on the title of the book.

[123456789blaaa]

Update on the Fomor-Glau thing. Apparently there is a type of Jann called Ifriits that do have Glau-like features. This doesn't eliminate the Glau-Fomor connection but it does severely weaken it.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Glau? What? What?

Sorry...

...my Whedon senses were tingling.

[Mauve Shirt]

Glau as in the creepy guy hanging out with Madrigal in Proven Guilty.

[123456789blaaa]

Anyone disagree with the below statements?:

If an author says something is true in the universe of their works, it is true in-universe full stop. It may not make sense and it may be terrible writing but that doesn't stop it from being true. For example, in the previous thread, it was brought up that Jim said that Harry's magic has to pay attention to the laws of physics. A bunch of parts of the books were pointed out where Harry's magic seems to make physics cry in the corner. My argument was that it doesn't matter that it seems to flout physics. Because the author said it pays attention, it does. It doesn't matter if the only way for this to be possible involves time travel, merlin's beard, and the first human to ever be born. If the author says it's true, it is true.

[Mauve Shirt]

So you're suggesting that the laws of physics change themselves in the Dresdenverse to suit Harry's narration?
Personally I think Harry's observed what force and fire magic do and decided that his magic obeys the laws of physics based on his non-academic study of those laws.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

My interpretation is that what the author says, goes, but it's the intent that matters the most. The author may have gotten some details wrong, and as long as those details are cursory and circumstantial, you can allow for them to be a bit wrong, if they don't quite fit.

That's not to say that it couldn't also be a case of unreliable narrator.

[123456789blaaa]

So you're suggesting that the laws of physics change themselves in the Dresdenverse to suit Harry's narration?
Personally I think Harry's observed what force and fire magic do and decided that his magic obeys the laws of physics based on his non-academic study of those laws.

What I'm saying is that Jim has said directly in a WoJ that magic pays attention to the physics. If it was just Harry, I'd be agreeing with you but I believe what the author says takes precedence when it comes to their fictional worlds.

[The Glyphstone]

What I'm saying is that Jim has said directly in a WoJ that magic pays attention to the physics. If it was just Harry, I'd be agreeing with you but I believe what the author says takes precedence when it comes to their fictional worlds.

The only problem is when, as I think you noted, the author says one thing out-of-universe and the actual descriptive text written by said author says something contradictory. To pick a random example, Harry's force rings. They violate Newton's Third Law by not catapulting Harry backwards whenever he triggers them. Jim saying all of Harry's magic obeys the laws of physics, thus, is proven to be either A) Jim is wrong, B) Jim is intentionally lying/telling the truth 'from a certain point of view', C) the laws of physics in question are not the same as our universe's laws, or D) the text is wrong/subjective. Since I think Harry would notice himself being flung around like a rag doll by his own rings, D is pretty easily discountable.

The ring example can probably be argued, but it's only one example of many.

[Connington]

I'm very much in the camp that trying to explain every slip in research, minor break in continuity, or production error (for visual media) is the route to madness.

[123456789blaaa]

The only problem is when, as I think you noted, the author says one thing out-of-universe and the actual descriptive text written by said author says something contradictory. To pick a random example, Harry's force rings. They violate Newton's Third Law by not catapulting Harry backwards whenever he triggers them. Jim saying all of Harry's magic obeys the laws of physics, thus, is proven to be either A) Jim is wrong, B) Jim is intentionally lying/telling the truth 'from a certain point of view', C) the laws of physics in question are not the same as our universe's laws, or D) the text is wrong/subjective. Since I think Harry would notice himself being flung around like a rag doll by his own rings, D is pretty easily discountable.

The ring example can probably be argued, but it's only one example of many.

Or E) There's other stuff going beneath the surface of what's happening in the books that we're not aware of. Perhaps if we were given a 3 hour presentation on magic and its relationship to physics, it would totally make sense why the force rings don't catapult him backwards and yet still pays attention physics. Sadly we don't.

Yes I am aware that this is not a good explanation. My point is that the specific explanation doesn't matter. What the author says goes. Unless it's impossible to reconcile the text and what the author says, the author is correct. For the DF in particular, magic is a mysterious force that we really don't know much about (relatively speaking). There's plenty of room for explanations.

Now this is not to say that's good writing. I'm not claiming it is. Maybe Jim should have wrote it so that we know why Harry doesn't get blown back. Maybe Jim shouldn't have said what he said about magic and physics. That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about what's true in-universe.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

E: would basically be a case of B:, where the "certain point of view" is the one not lacking information. I personally think it's a case of "Jim didn't consider this, but can't retcon it now" (just like how he gets the layout of Chicago wrong), though admittedly it could be "Jim knows something we don't know".

[The Glyphstone]

Or E) There's other stuff going beneath the surface of what's happening in the books that we're not aware of. Perhaps if we were given a 3 hour presentation on magic and its relationship to physics, it would totally make sense why the force rings don't catapult him backwards and yet still pays attention physics. Sadly we don't.

Yes I am aware that this is not a good explanation. My point is that the specific explanation doesn't matter. What the author says goes. Unless it's impossible to reconcile the text and what the author says, the author is correct. For the DF in particular, magic is a mysterious force that we really don't know much about (relatively speaking). There's plenty of room for explanations.

Now this is not to say that's good writing. I'm not claiming it is. Maybe Jim should have wrote it so that we know why Harry doesn't get blown back. Maybe Jim shouldn't have said what he said about magic and physics. That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about what's true in-universe.

And what's true in-universe is that magic has been observed, in multiple cases, to not obey physics. It doesn't matter how complex and/or mysterious magic is when the author flatly states that 'magic' as a coherent entity does obey physics...if it requires a 3-hour explanation to explain the semantic loophole that means it is still 'obeying physics', that falls under the Certain Point of View clause.

To play the hypothetical game, Jim could say 'Harry does not and has never listed himself in the phone book under 'Wizard''. He would never do this, because it is manifestly untrue from the very first paragraph of the first book onward, but it would still be a case in which the author has said something that is known, in-universe, to not be true. Arguing, equally hypothetically, that Harry isn't actually doing the listing, he is paying to have a phone book company list him, is A Certain Point Of View.

More simply put, the author's statements about a universe/book cannot be taken as 100% gospel unilaterally, but viewed in context of the author's other statements, including those made in the book itself, and resultant contradictions noted.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I would personally take an author's statements in the fiction as less prominent/binding than statements they have made later, simply because they've had time to think over things and polish them up. It's up to the author to reconcile stuff together.

[123456789blaaa]

And what's true in-universe is that magic has been observed, in multiple cases, to not obey physics. It doesn't matter how complex and/or mysterious magic is when the author flatly states that 'magic' as a coherent entity does obey physics...if it requires a 3-hour explanation to explain the semantic loophole that means it is still 'obeying physics', that falls under the Certain Point of View clause.
<snip>


Why does it not matter? Because it's bad writing? Because...what?


I would personally take an author's statements in the fiction as less prominent/binding than statements they have made later, simply because they've had time to think over things and polish them up. It's up to the author to reconcile stuff together.

In the fiction?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah; the books are basically also statements by the author (notwithstanding unreliable narrators), in their own way.

[The Glyphstone]

Why does it not matter? Because it's bad writing? Because...what?


Because the complexity of said magic is not the issue under contention. The issue is whether everything an author says regarding a work can be regarded as fully and perpetually infallible, and if the only way to make an apparently false statement true is to provide a tortuously complex and convoluted explanation (in this case, how the magic works), the the author has erred either in writing something he did not intend to be in his works, or erred in making a patently false statement that can be proven as such.

As a third hypothetical, it'd also be true if Jim said in one interview that Mab is older than Titania, then said in a separate interview that Titania is older than Mab. Without adding in some sort of context-qualifier (i.e., chronological order of statements, specific wording of question, amount of drinks consumed by Jim beforehand, whatever), you are presented with two directly contradictory statements that, absent said context-qualifiers, must both be simultaneously true. Treat what Jim (not Harry) has said/written in the books as one of these two interviews to make the digression relevant.

[123456789blaaa]

Because the complexity of said magic is not the issue under contention. The issue is whether everything an author says regarding a work can be regarded as fully and perpetually infallible, and if the only way to make an apparently false statement true is to provide a tortuously complex and convoluted explanation (in this case, how the magic works), the the author has erred either in writing something he did not intend to be in his works, or erred in making a patently false statement that can be proven as such.

As a third hypothetical, it'd also be true if Jim said in one interview that Mab is older than Titania, then said in a separate interview that Titania is older than Mab. Without adding in some sort of context-qualifier (i.e., chronological order of statements, specific wording of question, amount of drinks consumed by Jim beforehand, whatever), you are presented with two directly contradictory statements that, absent said context-qualifiers, must both be simultaneously true. Treat what Jim (not Harry) has said/written in the books as one of these two interviews to make the digression relevant.

I think I may have used a bad choice of words. What I mean is not so much precisely what the author says but rather, what the author means, intends, thinks etc. If Jim were to drunkenly mumble something about Harry being a planet at a wedding after a fan jumped out of the bushes and asked him what Harry was, I would not consider that to be true in the books.

If in Jims mind, DF magic pays attention to physics, than it does despite the force rings. I believe the author is supreme over his works. Now you could argue that the wording in the specific quote I posted of "pays attention to physics" means that it only does so very loosely (thus no contradiction). That's a different argument though.

[The Glyphstone]

I think I may have used a bad choice of words. What I mean is not so much precisely what the author says but rather, what the author means, intends, thinks etc. If Jim were to drunkenly mumble something about Harry being a planet at a wedding after a fan jumped out of the bushes and asked him what Harry was, I would not consider that to be true in the books.

If in Jims mind, DF magic pays attention to physics, than it does. I believe the author is supreme over his works. Now you could argue that the wording in the specific quote I posted of "pays attention to physics" means that it only does so very loosely (thus no contradiction). That's a different argument though.

That would make more sense, and narrow it down to either A) we, the readers, are being too pendantic/specific/broad with our definition of 'physics', or Jim is being very specific about how it does so. If he said 'pays attention to physics', I could buy that 100%, since it is a different argument...Dresden magic does things like obey conservation of energy, heat transfer via conduction, and other things. In fact, examples of how it clings to physical laws are almost as numerous as examples of how it, as mentioned upthread, makes them go cry in a corner.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Anyone disagree with the below statements?:

If an author says something is true in the universe of their works, it is true in-universe full stop. It may not make sense and it may be terrible writing but that doesn't stop it from being true.

Absolutely wrong.

Literature is not a logic puzzle. A is not always A.

The only consistent principle is "all things must be analysed in appropriate contexts" which is my fancy way of saying nothing is consistent. You merely have things which are generally true.

Nothing is "full stop" true.

Author statements? Unless an author asserts they have an eidectic memory and prove it repeatedly, they are not actually qualified to have make absolutely true statements even about their own works.

No, not they literally cannot.

They may be wrong, they may change their mind later, they may be lying, or an outside force like the publisher may intervene. This should be particularly so in the event of off hand statements, fans may record everything he says at events but can you assert Jim Butcher records everything Jim Butcher says and fact check himself. And then goes oh well I can't make... Odin actually Merlin because I said they were totally different people at Kanasas City Signing date X/Y/Z, oops need a new major plot twist.

That's the sort of thing you need to even approach your idea. Otherwise you're merely pretending to practice the idea.

Does that mean we should casually ignore the author? No! But don't presume he's somewhere between a fairy and the pope. Heck the pope doesn't work like that its just a misconception. You instead weigh the evidence of each case and decide what is enough. To really know something you want multiple points of data, multiple pieces of evidence.

Not just the smoking gun, but eyewitness testimony of the smoking gun backed by video recordings of the smoking gun lighting a cigarette and it buying the pack in the 7-11.

We know our wizard's name is Harry Dresden, we have hundreds (if not thousands) of assertions to that. Jim Butcher can hypothetically change that name to Chuck Yeager if he really really wants... but certainly not off hand. He says it by mistake, its just that a mistake. His added weight as the author cannot override the weight of Harry Dresden.

Yes that's ridiculous level but your method demand just such a principle and that it be consistently applied as such. A more plausible case might be flubbing the order of Harry's middle names. They aren't changed. Jim just likely screwed up. If he publishes the names in that order, uses them consistently in the new order.... well then its Harry Copperfield Blackstone Dresden.... and hopefully new editions update the older books.


For example, in the previous thread, it was brought up that Jim said that Harry's magic has to pay attention to the laws of physics. A bunch of parts of the books were pointed out where Harry's magic seems to make physics cry in the corner. My argument was that it doesn't matter that it seems to flout physics. Because the author said it pays attention, it does.

IIRC you want "pay attention" to mean things it doesn't actually entail. And you are flat wrong to do so.

There is a vast and infinite gulf between "pay attention" and "obeying" physics like you have seemed to want. Why? Because science is supposed to be precise, predictable, and reliable every single time. If you alter say the rate at an apple falls out of the tree to hit Newton, you must restructure the entire universe. No seriously, not even a litte hyperbole there because changing that means changing gravity.

Which alters (no really) everything about how the universe, galaxy, solar system, and planet evolved. You actually do the math on your change and you may find that stars can no longer form, never mind the changing such unlikely events as the Theia impact that birthed the Moon.

Which is why nobody does the math.

Much simpler and easier is the notion that Harry does indeed "pay attention" to physics. In the sense that he (and Butcher) looks at them as suggestions and the author's intention is that Harry does things in a way understandable (if not accurate) to those of us that remember vaguely high school.

Its still strictly speaking mumbo-jumbo nonsense, but it does "pay attention" because it cares to make the claim accurate or not. Paying attention does not mean you actually get it right at all.

Getting it right is doing the math.

[Rakaydos]

The only problem is when, as I think you noted, the author says one thing out-of-universe and the actual descriptive text written by said author says something contradictory. To pick a random example, Harry's force rings. They violate Newton's Third Law by not catapulting Harry backwards whenever he triggers them. Jim saying all of Harry's magic obeys the laws of physics, thus, is proven to be either A) Jim is wrong, B) Jim is intentionally lying/telling the truth 'from a certain point of view', C) the laws of physics in question are not the same as our universe's laws, or D) the text is wrong/subjective. Since I think Harry would notice himself being flung around like a rag doll by his own rings, D is pretty easily discountable.

The ring example can probably be argued, but it's only one example of many.
Arnt the rings explained to absorb force over time? So the recoil is spread over weeks or even months, but the strike is not directly linked to the recoil.

[123456789blaaa]

Soras, later in this thread, I realized I had used a poor choice of words. I recommend reading further ahead.

EDIT: Or I could post it below:



Because the complexity of said magic is not the issue under contention. The issue is whether everything an author says regarding a work can be regarded as fully and perpetually infallible, and if the only way to make an apparently false statement true is to provide a tortuously complex and convoluted explanation (in this case, how the magic works), the the author has erred either in writing something he did not intend to be in his works, or erred in making a patently false statement that can be proven as such.

As a third hypothetical, it'd also be true if Jim said in one interview that Mab is older than Titania, then said in a separate interview that Titania is older than Mab. Without adding in some sort of context-qualifier (i.e., chronological order of statements, specific wording of question, amount of drinks consumed by Jim beforehand, whatever), you are presented with two directly contradictory statements that, absent said context-qualifiers, must both be simultaneously true. Treat what Jim (not Harry) has said/written in the books as one of these two interviews to make the digression relevant.

I think I may have used a bad choice of words. What I mean is not so much precisely what the author says but rather, what the author means, intends, thinks etc. If Jim were to drunkenly mumble something about Harry being a planet at a wedding after a fan jumped out of the bushes and asked him what Harry was, I would not consider that to be true in the books.

If in Jims mind, DF magic pays attention to physics, than it does despite the force rings. I believe the author is supreme over his works. Now you could argue that the wording in the specific quote I posted of "pays attention to physics" means that it only does so very loosely (thus no contradiction). That's a different argument though.

[Fjolnir]

Honestly if I were making rings that absorbed kinetic energy, pretty high on the list of things that they would need to do is prevent me from being blasted about anyhow by recoil...

[Soras Teva Gee]

Soras, later in this thread, I realized I had used a poor choice of words. I recommend reading further ahead.


I did, I just didn't find much relevant. You really just need to burn your entire methodology down, its not a matter that can be swept under the rug with "poor wording" because you shouldn't be anywhere close those sorts of statements.


Arnt the rings explained to absorb force over time? So the recoil is spread over weeks or even months, but the strike is not directly linked to the recoil.

Dividing things on those lines is arguably a bigger deviation.

Because "Recoil" is Force. Equal and opposite reactions.

So help though me Harry talks about charging the rings with energy at least once. Ergo he's storing is kinetic energy in the rings an releasing that to exert force. And should blow his fingers off.

Course that's only one problem. Force is not a thing like with Magic Missile. Harry's rings should make... a breeze while blowing off his arm. That's the only medium that makes anything like sense. So we have to magic in a medium of transmission for force external to physics too.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ah, yes, Soras. That's basically what's been at the back of my mind in full. That's very in line with what my take is, I believe.

[123456789blaaa]

I did, I just didn't find much relevant. You really just need to burn your entire methodology down, its not a matter that can be swept under the rug with "poor wording" because you shouldn't be anywhere close those sorts of statements.



Dividing things on those lines is arguably a bigger deviation.

Because "Recoil" is Force. Equal and opposite reactions.

So help though me Harry talks about charging the rings with energy at least once. Ergo he's storing is kinetic energy in the rings an releasing that to exert force. And should blow his fingers off.

Course that's only one problem. Force is not a thing like with Magic Missile. Harry's rings should make... a breeze while blowing off his arm. That's the only medium that makes anything like sense. So we have to magic in a medium of transmission for force external to physics too.

Yes but that post keeps talking about what how ridiculous is it to hold Jim to exactly and precisely what he says when I meant what he thinks/intended etc . A small example:


We know our wizard's name is Harry Dresden, we have hundreds (if not thousands) of assertions to that. Jim Butcher can hypothetically change that name to Chuck Yeager if he really really wants... but certainly not off hand. He says it by mistake, its just that a mistake. His added weight as the author cannot override the weight of Harry Dresden.

I do not understand why the bolded sentence is in there if you are taking my other post into account. I agree with you. Another example:


A more plausible case might be flubbing the order of Harry's middle names. They aren't changed. Jim just likely screwed up. If he publishes the names in that order, uses them consistently in the new order.... well then its Harry Copperfield Blackstone Dresden.... and hopefully new editions update the older books.

Again, if Jim made a mistake, then I'm not holding it as true.

Do you get what I mean?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think the point being made is that while most people assume that the truth of fictional worlds is a strict progression from statement to statement, it's more of a wibbly-wobbly canony-wanony ball of...stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

So you're suggesting that the laws of physics change themselves in the Dresdenverse to suit Harry's narration?
Personally I think Harry's observed what force and fire magic do and decided that his magic obeys the laws of physics based on his non-academic study of those laws.

I like that idea. Harry thinks his magic follows physics, and so it does. His understanding of physics anyways (and he's only got a basic high school education that he never uses anyways)


Anyone disagree with the below statements?:

If an author says something is true in the universe of their works, it is true in-universe full stop. It may not make sense and it may be terrible writing but that doesn't stop it from being true. For example, in the previous thread, it was brought up that Jim said that Harry's magic has to pay attention to the laws of physics. A bunch of parts of the books were pointed out where Harry's magic seems to make physics cry in the corner. My argument was that it doesn't matter that it seems to flout physics. Because the author said it pays attention, it does. It doesn't matter if the only way for this to be possible involves time travel, merlin's beard, and the first human to ever be born. If the author says it's true, it is true.

Yes I disagree completely. And not just by wording or something like that. Flat out their opinion isn't the last word on the subject. The last word is what is in the books themselves. The only reason why the author's opinion means more is because they might change what's in the books, either through editing or by adding another novel to the series.

[123456789blaaa]

I think the point being made is that while most people assume that the truth of fictional worlds is a strict progression from statement to statement, it's more of a wibbly-wobbly canony-wanony ball of...stuff.

Maybe. I'll think on it...

Anyways I'm tired as sin and I can feel my thoughts starting to go in circles. Lemme try and simplify my beliefs on this subject (forget everything I've said previously):

In general, what an author thinks is true in their own works is the truth in-universe regardless of what seems like contradicting evidence within the work itself (unless it is literally impossible to reconcile the two).


I like that idea. Harry thinks his magic follows physics, and so it does. His understanding of physics anyways (and he's only got a basic high school education that he never uses anyways)



Yes I disagree completely. And not just by wording or something like that. Flat out their opinion isn't the last word on the subject. The last word is what is in the books themselves. The only reason why the author's opinion means more is because they might change what's in the books, either through editing or by adding another novel to the series.

I suppose we'll probably have to agree to disagree then.

[Mauve Shirt]

If Leonardo da Vinci Told me that the Mona Lisa was a depiction of this one time he went fishing with his grandfather, I wouldn't believe him for one minute.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

In general, what an author thinks is true in their own works is the truth in-universe regardless of what seems like contradicting evidence within the work itself (unless it is literally impossible to reconcile the two).

I would agree with this, taking into account the fact that an author's idea of the in-universe truth evolves, and that the author's memory of the full in-universe truth is less than 100% accurate. It's certainly not easy for the author to recall everything; the Internet Hivemind is much more able to do that. :smallwink:

[datalaughing]

Things in the published material are canon (even if there is an occasional contradiction). Things stated by the author outside of that are not. George Lucas said plenty of stuff about the Star Wars universe 30 years ago that went right out the window when the second trilogy was made. The people who make the Girl Genius comic said a ton of stuff years ago regarding the universe of their comic, which have gradually changed as they decide that the process of storytelling required it. Plans change, ideas in an author's head evolve. What's been published, that (usually) stays the same. So that's what you can rely on as "true."

[Soras Teva Gee]

The entire problem is that the concept of "canon" is itself rather a dirty lie.

I will point out that the body that created the actual IRL canon itself does not as is often misunderstood suppose the actual canon is a monopoly on truth.

For our fictional franchise as far as I'm concerned there is no canon there is ONLY fanon.

Even the authority with the greatest weight for a franchise goes only so far. You want to point to say the Dresden Files books as the "final authority"... well there's still that damn big parking lot around Wrigley Field in the middle of Chicago. Read between the lines a little and how Michael and the Swords work clearly underwent some rethinking between books 3 and 5. Sure we can suppose that since everything is through Harry he was simply wrong and revised his opinions, but its never addressed in the books. If not the books then what exactly?

Other franchises may have different faultlines. I'm sure if you pin most sci-fi movie creators down, they would say that there really isn't sound in space so certain events "really" didn't happen *quite* as depicted. Any videogame is going to have separation between its "reality" and its gameplay contrivances. In these cases even the original media may not represent the final authority.

Overall of course this all adds up to it not existing. There are generally "weightier" sources of authority, dependent upon exact circumstance and subject to interpretation. That's it, they're just shadings better or worse.

Of course the perhaps the deepest problem with "canon" is that its a conceit that is doomed to failure. Every single canon will eventually fail given enough material. Its simply inevitable someone is going to screw up. You get a really attentive to detail single creator you might escape unscathed for awhile.. but sooner or later its simply inevitable something is going to slip. And that is the BEST case scenario.

Only fandom can't admit this because it means all their OCD hivemind collating is inherently pointless and their vaunted neckbeard authority is all sound and fury signifying nothing. **** fandom and their arrogant nonsense.

[Lamech]

Magic pays attention to physics. My cat pays attention to mice. If magic didn't pay attention to physics where would Harry's rings get their power from? How could Shadow dude draw power from the storm?

Magic does business with physics. Or maybe just humanities common sense assumptions about physics. That's why raising something light is generally a lot easier than raising something heavy if you use magic.

[Philistine]

In general, what an author thinks is true in their own works is the truth in-universe regardless of what seems like contradicting evidence within the work itself (unless it is literally impossible to reconcile the two).

You seem to be saying here that an author's out-of-universe statements regarding story, setting, and character should be taken as more important than the in-universe depictions of same within the text. I don't even know how to respond to that - but I know where to make a start:

NO. NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

This is a terrible idea. Accepting it would mean that both text and author are terrible, unable to tell a coherent story without resorting to external ex cathedra proclamations from the author. The work has to be able to stand on its own without this kind of meta-knowledge (and to be clear, I'm not just rejecting this in the context of DF, but for all books and indeed for all works of art). Authorial declarations of intent are great for clearing up ambiguities, inconsistencies, or even outright contradictions within the body of the work (Molly's age, for the most obvious DF-related example); but if such statements conflict in any way with the actual text, without a text source to back them up? Rubbish. And the in-text source needs to be stronger than an Unreliable Narrator claiming something is true based on his own self-confessed very limited understanding of the subject.

[Mauve Shirt]

Only fandom can't admit this because it means all their OCD hivemind collating is inherently pointless and their vaunted neckbeard authority is all sound and fury signifying nothing. **** fandom and their arrogant nonsense.

:smallamused: I do seriously wonder, what do you want to do in these threads?

[Soras Teva Gee]

:smallamused: I do seriously wonder, what do you want to do in these threads?

Preach fire and brimstone of course.

[BRC]

You seem to be saying here that an author's out-of-universe statements regarding story, setting, and character should be taken as more important than the in-universe depictions of same within the text. I don't even know how to respond to that - but I know where to make a start:

NO. NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

This is a terrible idea. Accepting it would mean that both text and author are terrible, unable to tell a coherent story without resorting to external ex cathedra proclamations from the author. The work has to be able to stand on its own without this kind of meta-knowledge (and to be clear, I'm not just rejecting this in the context of DF, but for all books and indeed for all works of art). Authorial declarations of intent are great for clearing up ambiguities, inconsistencies, or even outright contradictions within the body of the work (Molly's age, for the most obvious DF-related example); but if such statements conflict in any way with the actual text, without a text source to back them up? Rubbish. And the in-text source needs to be stronger than an Unreliable Narrator claiming something is true based on his own self-confessed very limited understanding of the subject.

I always consider that, if you must define Canon, you do so while reconciling, first the works themselves, and then the Author's statements.

So, if Book 1 says there is a purple Smurfuggle, and Book 5 says there is a green Smurfuggle, and the Author says that all Smurfuggles are Orange, then if you must define the "Canon", you would say that Smurfuggles can be either purple or green.

If the Author says that a previously unspecified Smurfuggle is Orange, then you say Smurfuggles can be Purple, Green, or Orange.

Stuff Declared in Source Material > Author's Word.


As for the "Does Business with Physics" thing, that always seemed like "Occasionally meets Physics for lunch and nods occasionally". Harry throws Fireballs around, and occasionally Pyrofuego's for a combined Fire/Ice effect.

My personal theory is that a Wizard's magic is in many ways a reflection on how they view the nature of Magic itself, just like how not ever wizard sees an image when they soulgaze. Harry views magic like an engineer views physics, a series of ways in which forces move around and do stuff.

Harry also has a high-school level knowledge of Physics.

Harry's speciality, magically speaking, is in the moving around of forces. He pushes stuff, lights stuff on fire, blows stuff up, and finds stuff. He specifically finds stuff by honing in on similarities or connections.

Harry talks about this like ALL magic works like that, but thinking about it that does not really make much sense.

Take, for example, Healing Magic, which we know exists, Listens To Wind is a specialist in it. Magical Healing makes no sense in terms of "Forces moving around", is the healer magically pumping some sort of "Life Energy" into the patient? are they using telekinesis to push skin, muscle, and flesh together?
Harry, Coincidentally, has never been shown to perform Healing magic. It does not fit with his worldview, or definition of magic.

But, if you had a worldview that DID involve some sort of "Life Energy" that you could close wounds and restore vitality, that would be a different story. Listens to Wind was able to perform a rain dance and call down a rainstorm in his battle with the Skinwalker. We have not seen Harry even THINK about the mechanics of that.

In Harry's viewpoint, the Weather is a system of forces too complex to even think about. He has no idea how one would create a rainstorm.

In Listens-To-Wind's mindset, a rainstorm is somthing you can create if you ask nicely enough.


I also put Molly into this theory.

Harry views magic as forces moving around. His first Spell was him doing track and field and accidentally propelling himself with magic. That is very much "Forces moving around" style magic.

Molly's first spell was veiling herself from her mother on instinct. She did not know what she was doing, she just really did not want to be seen, and lo, she was not seen.

I see Molly's view of magic as being less "Moving forces around" and more "Reshaping the world as I see fit". This means she has trouble with harry-style Magic, since while Harry thinks "I am calling up a source of energy within myself, shaping it, and then using that to do things in accordance with how physics works", Molly has to say "That thing that is not on fire-Make it be on fire".

Harry thinks he's playing by the rules, Molly knows she's breaking them.

That said, Illusions and mind magic are much simpler in terms of "Make what I want to happen happen" then "Moving forces around". If Harry tries to do an illusion, some part of him is trying to conceptualize that as moving forces around. Bending the patterns of light around himself or somthing. Molly just thinks "I don't want them to see me". Perception and the human mind are both notoriously subjective things, and they happen to be Molly's playground. She is good at subtle magic because her style of magic focuses on the Result, not the Process. She does not think "I want to make the light that reaches their eyes not reflect off me", she thinks "I want them not to see me". What for Harry would be the subtle and precise manipulation of many forces is, for Molly, a simple declaration of intent and application of will.
Harry thinks about picking a lock by pushing on the tumblers, Molly just skips straight to "And I want this door to be open".

And "I want them to see somthing that is not" is much easier than "I want something that is not to be".


Now let's rampently speculate. Listens-To-Wind's magic probably stems from the traditional beliefs of his people. He can control weather, shapeshift, and heal because his worldview is such that these are things that can happen.

Let's say Carlos views Magic as inheriently disruptive , which leads to his particular flavor of weaponized entropy, as he turns things to dust.

Also, Harry is deeply familiar with the Gandalf-style pop-cultural idea of the Wizard, and he seems to fit that himself. His spellcasting makes a lot of sense if viewed as a fushion between High-school dropout physics and "I am Gandalf". He thinks about Forzare as conjuring up a wave of kinectic energy to knock someone down. It never occurs to him to question the idea of just conjuring up kinetic energy because he is a Wizard, and that is just the sort of thing a Wizard can do.


In Ghost Story we see a low-level spellcaster guy use magic to enhance his own speed. Harry is far more powerful, and probably far more experienced than this guy, but we don't see Harry ever trying to boost his speed like that. Because if Harry tried he would have to conceptualize pushing himself around with kinetic energy in just the right way. He would see it as using kinetic energy to add extra force in very precise ways according to the complex physical process of somebody running. He could theoretically say "I'm making myself faster with Magic", but his image of himself is based off Gandalf, not The Flash, and making yourself faster does not fit his image of a Wizard the same way throwing fireballs does.

[123456789blaaa]

If Leonardo da Vinci Told me that the Mona Lisa was a depiction of this one time he went fishing with his grandfather, I wouldn't believe him for one minute.

The Mona Lisa isn't a book detailing a fictional universe of Leo's creation. Sorry if my quote was unclear (not sarcastic) but my quote was meant to only apply in that situation. I could discuss your example but that would be a different thing. Your example also seems to be assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that Leo is lying (which , means it's not really what he thinks is true).


I would agree with this, taking into account the fact that an author's idea of the in-universe truth evolves, and that the author's memory of the full in-universe truth is less than 100% accurate. It's certainly not easy for the author to recall everything; the Internet Hivemind is much more able to do that. :smallwink:

Right.


Magic pays attention to physics. My cat pays attention to mice. If magic didn't pay attention to physics where would Harry's rings get their power from? How could Shadow dude draw power from the storm?

Magic does business with physics. Or maybe just humanities common sense assumptions about physics. That's why raising something light is generally a lot easier than raising something heavy if you use magic.

Well, for one possible explanation, maybe from their own belief. Harry believes in his explanation and so it seems works like that. In actuality, his magic is bending physics over its knee.


You seem to be saying here that an author's out-of-universe statements regarding story, setting, and character should be taken as more important than the in-universe depictions of same within the text. I don't even know how to respond to that - but I know where to make a start:

NO. NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

This is a terrible idea. Accepting it would mean that both text and author are terrible, unable to tell a coherent story without resorting to external ex cathedra proclamations from the author. The work has to be able to stand on its own without this kind of meta-knowledge (and to be clear, I'm not just rejecting this in the context of DF, but for all books and indeed for all works of art). Authorial declarations of intent are great for clearing up ambiguities, inconsistencies, or even outright contradictions within the body of the work (Molly's age, for the most obvious DF-related example); but if such statements conflict in any way with the actual text, without a text source to back them up? Rubbish. And the in-text source needs to be stronger than an Unreliable Narrator claiming something is true based on his own self-confessed very limited understanding of the subject.

Why? The DF can totally stand on its own without any WoJ even if you do believe my statement. Having lots of WoJ is just a very nice bonus.



<snip>


I'm not sure how much I agree with what you're saying but I just want to give props for obviously putting effort into making such a detailed and comprehensive post (one thing though, LTW goes to medical school every few decades to brush up on his medical knowledge. He needs to actually know how the body works in order to heal).

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT:


I thought about getting up and checking out Gard’s case, maybe calling Michael and Murphy, but the weariness that suddenly settled on my limbs made all of that sound impossibly difficult. So I settled in a little more comfortably and found sleep coming swiftly to me as well.

The last thing I noticed, before I dropped off, was that under all the blankets I was entirely undressed.

And I was clean.

This was a snippet in Small Favor from when Harry,Luccio, Kincaid, Ivy, and Michael are driving in his car to Harry's house. Harry gets really cold and stumbles into his house when they get there and blacks out on his couch. Then he wakes up and ogles Luccio who's trying to hint to him by cleaning herself in front of the couch. These are the last words before the next chapter.

So if I'm not mistaken, the implication here is that Luccio undressed and cleaned Harry while he was blacked out from weariness. Did this strike anyone else as slightly creepy?

[Rakaydos]

So if I'm not mistaken, the implication here is that Luccio undressed and cleaned Harry while he was blacked out from weariness. Did this strike anyone else as slightly creepy?

Perhaps from a modern perspective- but was it really that out of line centuries ago for a european female to do that? Suc as when Luccio was as old as her body is now?

[123456789blaaa]

Perhaps from a modern perspective- but was it really that out of line centuries ago for a european female to do that? Suc as when Luccio was as old as her body is now?

I don't know much about the lives of European females from centuries ago so I couldn't really say.

But Luccio is knows about Harry's modern perspective. Is the explanation here that she knew he wouldn't be skeeved out since she was a hot women?

And suppose the genders of the characters were switched. Luccio is a dude who undresses and cleans the body of a blacked out female colleague. Would that the readers still accept that kind of explanation?

I'm not sure of my own views here but I'm surprised no one else I've seen at least brought it up.

[One Tin Soldier]

As for the "Does Business with Physics" thing, *snip
*

This is pretty much what my view on the whole business is. Even aside from the observational evidence you've described here, we've also had other spellcasters say outright that they don't think of magic like Harry does. Billy specifically said that his description of werewolves as "casters who only know one spell" was totally different than how they were taught. So clearly his view is not the only view, or even the best one. (Since there are, after all, wizards way better than Harry.)

The other aspect of this whole thing, which people have touched on in this conversation, is that Jim probably thought he was doing perfectly ok with the whole physics thing. And/or decided that getting into the real nitty-gritty past what could make for interesting story or fight scenes wasn't worth getting worked up over. I mean, when I've thought up magic powers in the past, that's about the level of realistic physics that I operated on. I.e. just enough to lead to interesting applications and restrictions of the power.

[Avilan the Grey]

So if I'm not mistaken, the implication here is that Luccio undressed and cleaned Harry while he was blacked out from weariness. Did this strike anyone else as slightly creepy?

No.

Why would it?

[123456789blaaa]

No.

Why would it?

Generally, I prefer the people who rub the dirt of my naked body -while I'm blacked out and without my prior approval- to be closer than colleagues. Am I in the minority here?

I think what makes it even skeevier is that Luccio has amorous intentions towards Harry. It wasn't purely a practical matter (which you could at least make an argument for).

[lord_khaine]

So if I'm not mistaken, the implication here is that Luccio undressed and cleaned Harry while he was blacked out from weariness. Did this strike anyone else as slightly creepy?

No.. why?
Harry needet to get out of those clothes because he were dangerously cold, and since he were also rather flithy and as i recall a bit injured, then he also needed to be cleaned up.

[Mauve Shirt]

If butters had done it it would not have been creepy. I do kind of see what you're saying about a male undressing a female seeming creepy, but a paragraph of Harry undressing his senior officer out of necessity would be so full of stuttering and blushing and IT'S NOT LIKE THAT that I wouldn't think of it as creepy either.

[Soras Teva Gee]

My personal theory is that a Wizard's magic is in many ways a reflection on how they view the nature of Magic itself, just like how not ever wizard sees an image when they soulgaze. Harry views magic like an engineer views physics, a series of ways in which forces move around and do stuff.

I tend to agree especially given the comparative modernity of physics as a system of understanding... well unless Newton was a WC member and just codified a view held by wizards. Which is more plausible then it might sound.

That said we still know there are some more strict rules I think. The Dresdenverse plays around with it some but never quite gets into consensual reality. We just don't have a complete enough knowledge to say what is or isn't

I suspect for example all wizards have to obey some basic conservation of mass/energy/etc for example. All (right now) have the techbane issue though that is also a good example for a more casual relationship since its known to have changed with time.

I still like the idea some young spellcaster of say Molly's generation forward will actually manage to be a technomancer.


Take, for example, Healing Magic, which we know exists, Listens To Wind is a specialist in it. Magical Healing makes no sense in terms of "Forces moving around", is the healer magically pumping some sort of "Life Energy" into the patient? are they using telekinesis to push skin, muscle, and flesh together?
Harry, Coincidentally, has never been shown to perform Healing magic. It does not fit with his worldview, or definition of magic.

Inference would suggest that magical healing is more along the lines of mundane medicine then say your game system Cleric or White Mage. Say Traditional Chinese Medicine that actually works. With perhaps a few advantages but not like wave your wounds away, which so far only Lea and (sorta) Mab have don.

Otherwise Harry would have put a frantic call to Listens to Wind when his back was broken I'd think. He should know what its capable of even if he doesn't practice it.


So if I'm not mistaken, the implication here is that Luccio undressed and cleaned Harry while he was blacked out from weariness. Did this strike anyone else as slightly creepy?

Yes but when I stop and think about it what's actually wrong here other then that I'm biased by coming from rather prudish stand-offish culture of no touching people?

And come to think of it don't some methods of treating hypothermia involve using water? Not hot water ('cuz shock and such) but like luke warm?

I think the real problem is that Harry's phrasing is such it rather kinda implies Luccio like... licked him clean or something.

[Philistine]

Why? The DF can totally stand on its own without any WoJ even if you do believe my statement. Having lots of WoJ is just a very nice bonus.
Seriously? You're really asking why it's a problem if a writer, in particular, has to go back and clarify what they were attempting to communicate in their works? Really? Guess it's time to earn my username again.

Art is communication if it's worth anything at all. Whether we're talking about painters, musicians, dancers, chefs, sculptors - the goal is to convey something to the audience. (Otherwise, why would anyone care?) That something may be an image, or a feeling, or a sense of wonder, or whatever. That part doesn't matter. For any artist, having to go back and explain what they were trying to communicate is failure, because that means their work has failed in its sole purpose for existing. How much moreso then for literature, the actual art of words? Literature should be the most precise of the arts, largely immune from accidental ambiguities, because the artist/author gets to pick the first words the audience/reader will associate with the ideas being related. That's why it's so terrible if an author feels the need to come back and clarify the intent behind a work - because making that intent plain is Job One, and authors have a uniquely precise set of tools to accomplish that job.

***

As for the Luccio/Harry question, No, of course not. In addition to what others have already said, you seem to be looking at Harry and Luccio as "barely acquainted co-workers," which is just wrong. Wardens aren't corporate drones, they're soldiers, with all that entails - including a reasonable expectation that they may need to stop and render first aid to one another on the battlefield, which may involve removing as much clothing as necessary to get at the wound(s). I'd be much more concerned if they'd risked allowing Harry to die out of excessive concern for his modesty.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

As for the Luccio/Harry question, No, of course not. In addition to what others have already said, you seem to be looking at Harry and Luccio as "barely acquainted co-workers," which is just wrong. Wardens aren't corporate drones, they're soldiers, with all that entails - including a reasonable expectation that they may need to stop and render first aid to one another on the battlefield, which may involve removing as much clothing as necessary to get at the wound(s). I'd be much more concerned if they'd risked allowing Harry to die out of excessive concern for his modesty.
Though, in hindsight, the context of that is a bit more unsettling...given Peabody's meddling and such.

[Lamech]

Dark Magic: Making Creepers since 2009

[Forum Explorer]

As for the "Does Business with Physics" thing, that always seemed like "Occasionally meets Physics for lunch and nods occasionally". Harry throws Fireballs around, and occasionally Pyrofuego's for a combined Fire/Ice effect.

My personal theory is that a Wizard's magic is in many ways a reflection on how they view the nature of Magic itself, just like how not ever wizard sees an image when they soulgaze. Harry views magic like an engineer views physics, a series of ways in which forces move around and do stuff.

Harry also has a high-school level knowledge of Physics.

Harry's speciality, magically speaking, is in the moving around of forces. He pushes stuff, lights stuff on fire, blows stuff up, and finds stuff. He specifically finds stuff by honing in on similarities or connections.

Harry talks about this like ALL magic works like that, but thinking about it that does not really make much sense.

Take, for example, Healing Magic, which we know exists, Listens To Wind is a specialist in it. Magical Healing makes no sense in terms of "Forces moving around", is the healer magically pumping some sort of "Life Energy" into the patient? are they using telekinesis to push skin, muscle, and flesh together?
Harry, Coincidentally, has never been shown to perform Healing magic. It does not fit with his worldview, or definition of magic.

But, if you had a worldview that DID involve some sort of "Life Energy" that you could close wounds and restore vitality, that would be a different story. Listens to Wind was able to perform a rain dance and call down a rainstorm in his battle with the Skinwalker. We have not seen Harry even THINK about the mechanics of that.

In Harry's viewpoint, the Weather is a system of forces too complex to even think about. He has no idea how one would create a rainstorm.

In Listens-To-Wind's mindset, a rainstorm is somthing you can create if you ask nicely enough.


I also put Molly into this theory.

Harry views magic as forces moving around. His first Spell was him doing track and field and accidentally propelling himself with magic. That is very much "Forces moving around" style magic.

Molly's first spell was veiling herself from her mother on instinct. She did not know what she was doing, she just really did not want to be seen, and lo, she was not seen.

I see Molly's view of magic as being less "Moving forces around" and more "Reshaping the world as I see fit". This means she has trouble with harry-style Magic, since while Harry thinks "I am calling up a source of energy within myself, shaping it, and then using that to do things in accordance with how physics works", Molly has to say "That thing that is not on fire-Make it be on fire".

Harry thinks he's playing by the rules, Molly knows she's breaking them.

That said, Illusions and mind magic are much simpler in terms of "Make what I want to happen happen" then "Moving forces around". If Harry tries to do an illusion, some part of him is trying to conceptualize that as moving forces around. Bending the patterns of light around himself or somthing. Molly just thinks "I don't want them to see me". Perception and the human mind are both notoriously subjective things, and they happen to be Molly's playground. She is good at subtle magic because her style of magic focuses on the Result, not the Process. She does not think "I want to make the light that reaches their eyes not reflect off me", she thinks "I want them not to see me". What for Harry would be the subtle and precise manipulation of many forces is, for Molly, a simple declaration of intent and application of will.
Harry thinks about picking a lock by pushing on the tumblers, Molly just skips straight to "And I want this door to be open".

And "I want them to see somthing that is not" is much easier than "I want something that is not to be".


Now let's rampently speculate. Listens-To-Wind's magic probably stems from the traditional beliefs of his people. He can control weather, shapeshift, and heal because his worldview is such that these are things that can happen.

Let's say Carlos views Magic as inheriently disruptive , which leads to his particular flavor of weaponized entropy, as he turns things to dust.

Also, Harry is deeply familiar with the Gandalf-style pop-cultural idea of the Wizard, and he seems to fit that himself. His spellcasting makes a lot of sense if viewed as a fushion between High-school dropout physics and "I am Gandalf". He thinks about Forzare as conjuring up a wave of kinectic energy to knock someone down. It never occurs to him to question the idea of just conjuring up kinetic energy because he is a Wizard, and that is just the sort of thing a Wizard can do.


In Ghost Story we see a low-level spellcaster guy use magic to enhance his own speed. Harry is far more powerful, and probably far more experienced than this guy, but we don't see Harry ever trying to boost his speed like that. Because if Harry tried he would have to conceptualize pushing himself around with kinetic energy in just the right way. He would see it as using kinetic energy to add extra force in very precise ways according to the complex physical process of somebody running. He could theoretically say "I'm making myself faster with Magic", but his image of himself is based off Gandalf, not The Flash, and making yourself faster does not fit his image of a Wizard the same way throwing fireballs does.

I really do love that idea and I think it's one that works. I don't think you got Molly's view correct though. I'd say it's a weird mix of her own and Harry's ideas after becoming his apprentice. So she thinks magic is a sort of energy you can use to do stuff. Physical stuff takes a lot of energy while mental stuff takes no energy, because mental stuff is on in your head if you know what I mean. :smallwink:



I don't know much about the lives of European females from centuries ago so I couldn't really say.

But Luccio is knows about Harry's modern perspective. Is the explanation here that she knew he wouldn't be skeeved out since she was a hot women?

And suppose the genders of the characters were switched. Luccio is a dude who undresses and cleans the body of a blacked out female colleague. Would that the readers still accept that kind of explanation?

I'm not sure of my own views here but I'm surprised no one else I've seen at least brought it up.

It's a well known fact that when someone is hypothermia you get them out of their cold clothes. Warm water can help, so cleaning Harry with heated water works as well. Similarly with wrapping him in a blanket and making a fire. So I think it was more a matter of survival first, skeeviness second.

To put it a diifferent way, I don't think Luccio would have done it if Harry hadn't been suffering from hypothermia. She also enjoyed it more then she'd think so that's why Harry got that little stiptease.




Inference would suggest that magical healing is more along the lines of mundane medicine then say your game system Cleric or White Mage. Say Traditional Chinese Medicine that actually works. With perhaps a few advantages but not like wave your wounds away, which so far only Lea and (sorta) Mab have don.

Otherwise Harry would have put a frantic call to Listens to Wind when his back was broken I'd think. He should know what its capable of even if he doesn't practice it.



Yes but when I stop and think about it what's actually wrong here other then that I'm biased by coming from rather prudish stand-offish culture of no touching people?

And come to think of it don't some methods of treating hypothermia involve using water? Not hot water ('cuz shock and such) but like luke warm?

I think the real problem is that Harry's phrasing is such it rather kinda implies Luccio like... licked him clean or something.

For magical healing Harry's back wasn't there a load of issues that'd make it impossible even if it was White Mage style?

Like the White Council being in lockdown and a Fallen whispering in his ear. I think the Senior Council was MIA at the time anyways.

But yeah I kinda agree. It might work, but I think it's slower then a 3 second action.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
I still like the idea some young spellcaster of say Molly's generation forward will actually manage to be a technomancer.
<snip>

Well the Murphyonic Field (tech-smashy field that wizards produce) tends to change every 500-600 years (which hey, coincides with the average age of each generation of wizards). It used to make crops go bad and warts pop up. So we won't be seeing a technomancer wizard within the books but they'll have to pop up later given the increasing significance of tech.

Unless you mean a wizard figuring out ways to work around the MF while being tech-smashy? Maybe...it's very plausible but I don't know if Jim would want to include that in the books.

It reminds me of Bob gaining access to the Internet. There's just so much knowledge in there and to have something that can sort through and dredge up that info in two seconds seems invaluable. But it's just a joke in the books.


Yes but when I stop and think about it what's actually wrong here other then that I'm biased by coming from rather prudish stand-offish culture of no touching people?

And come to think of it don't some methods of treating hypothermia involve using water? Not hot water ('cuz shock and such) but like luke warm?

I think the real problem is that Harry's phrasing is such it rather kinda implies Luccio like... licked him clean or something.



<snip>
It's a well known fact that when someone is hypothermia you get them out of their cold clothes. Warm water can help, so cleaning Harry with heated water works as well. Similarly with wrapping him in a blanket and making a fire. So I think it was more a matter of survival first, skeeviness second.

To put it a diifferent way, I don't think Luccio would have done it if Harry hadn't been suffering from hypothermia. She also enjoyed it more then she'd think so that's why Harry got that little stiptease.
<snip>


Ah I see. The issue here was me just not knowing anything about the type of treatment you give in that situation. I was assuming She could have piled him under the blankets right away and that the cleaning was just a bonus.

I think what contributed to that was the placement of that little snippet of text. I'm not sure of the right word for it but I've seen that type of thing in other books as well. Right before the person is about to go back to sleep, they notice that the other person has done something extra-special for them. They then lose consciousness before they can ponder it. It's a way of giving hints to the readers without actually having to deal with the relationship-talk.


Seriously? You're really asking why it's a problem if a writer, in particular, has to go back and clarify what they were attempting to communicate in their works? .
<snip>


No.

Let me attempt to clarify.

I posted a statement which you quoted.

In your reply you seemed to be assuming that believing my statement meant, that the person believing it also had to believe that, the writer has to go back and clarify.

I asked why you could not just believe my statement, while not believing that the writer has to go back and clarify.

[The Glyphstone]

Well the Murphyonic Field (tech-smashy field that wizards produce) tends to change every 500-600 years (which hey, coincides with the average age of each generation of wizards). It used to make crops go bad and warts pop up. So we won't be seeing a technomancer wizard within the books but they'll have to pop up later given the increasing significance of tech.

Unless you mean a wizard figuring out ways to work around the MF while being tech-smashy? Maybe...it's very plausible but I don't know if Jim would want to include that in the books.

It reminds me of Bob gaining access to the Internet. There's just so much knowledge in there and to have something that can sort through and dredge up that info in two seconds seems invaluable. But it's just a joke in the books.
.

My headcanon, which I think overlaps with Sora's, is that the Murphyonic field isn't an inherent property of magic itself, but a manifestation of the whole 'magic shapes itself according to one's will) that's been passed down from master to apprentice so many times it's become institutionalized. Tech - whatever it might be defined as that century - breaks around wizards because they were taught by their masters that tech breaks around them, who were taught in turn, etc., reinforced by encounters with those century-old wizards who also believe such. Under this paradigm, a wizard who was completely self-taught (who also would probably be a warlock, unfortunately) would be able to function fine around technology simply because he'd never been told otherwise, but anyone even remotely connected to the establishment would get sucked into perpetuating the belief. It has no positive text support at all, but then we've never seen any wizards other than Molly at the very beginning of their career.

[123456789blaaa]

My headcanon, which I think overlaps with Sora's, is that the Murphyonic field isn't an inherent property of magic itself, but a manifestation of the whole 'magic shapes itself according to one's will) that's been passed down from master to apprentice so many times it's become institutionalized. Tech - whatever it might be defined as that century - breaks around wizards because they were taught by their masters that tech breaks around them, who were taught in turn, etc., reinforced by encounters with those century-old wizards who also believe such. Under this paradigm, a wizard who was completely self-taught (who also would probably be a warlock, unfortunately) would be able to function fine around technology simply because he'd never been told otherwise, but anyone even remotely connected to the establishment would get sucked into perpetuating the belief. It has no positive text support at all, but then we've never seen any wizards other than Molly at the very beginning of their career.

Well, the reason that the Murphyonic Field is there in the first place (according to WoJ) is because humans are conflicted (that whole Free Will thing). A Fae who uses magic (and I mean taught magic, not inherent magic) can sit around and play X-box all day.

And if the MF is due solely to belief, than why does it change periodically? Why do wizards suddenly start thinking that magic breaks tech after it's been ruining crops for the past 600 years?\

I think your headcanon is on the right track though. It seems to me that the MF is more tied to the nature of people (whether it's only wizards or just humanity in general I'm not sure). The visible progress of tech is quite recent. People did not create Sci-Fi stories in the Middle Ages (someone is gong to correct me on this aren't they?). For the older generation tech often seems bewildering and strange. I think the current effect of the MF is tied into that.

[Fjolnir]

What if The MF does not hinge on how WIZARDS perceive magic as working but rather how MUNDANES do?

"witchcraft" causing boils, warts, and crop failure was a fairly common concept back in the day, now we might picture a wizard and see an absentminded professor, skilled in his field but otherwise ignorant of how things operate outside it...

[The Glyphstone]

Well, the reason that the Murphyonic Field is there in the first place (according to WoJ) is because humans are conflicted (that whole Free Will thing). A Fae who uses magic (and I mean taught magic, not inherent magic) can sit around and play X-box all day.

And if the MF is due solely to belief, than why does it change periodically? Why do wizards suddenly start thinking that magic breaks tech after it's been ruining crops for the past 600 years?\

I think your headcanon is on the right track though. It seems to me that the MF is more tied to the nature of people (whether it's only wizards or just humanity in general I'm not sure). The visible progress of tech is quite recent. People did not create Sci-Fi stories in the Middle Ages (someone is gong to correct me on this aren't they?). For the older generation tech often seems bewildering and strange. I think the current effect of the MF is tied into that.

Beats me. Though maybe it's because in pre-industrial times, crops/agriculture/animals were "technology" as far as people and wizards understood. The most complicated mechanical machinery they had were things like wheeled carts or church bells, and the bulk of the population was rural-based. As society developed and urban populations became the norm, the wizards and their self-projected MF developed to match - the 'complicated' and 'technical' (and thus countered by magic) things in life were now a function of machinery.

I'd expect it to be more gradual, anyways, since it would be really weird if, for centuries, wizards curdled milk by being near them then woke up one day and every wizard in the world could have all the milk they wanted but couldn't ride the newfangled steam engines that had been invented a decade ago. Nor would it make sense for wizards like the Merlin to melt computers if he was born/trained after the 'switch', but before anything like a computer had even been conceived of. Though we don't know when the last 'switch' point was, assuming a hard-and-fast changeover.

[Mauve Shirt]

Dangerous Women comes out today. I'll probably go to the bookstore and read it.

[tomandtish]

Generally, I prefer the people who rub the dirt of my naked body -while I'm blacked out and without my prior approval- to be closer than colleagues. Am I in the minority here?

I think what makes it even skeevier is that Luccio has amorous intentions towards Harry. It wasn't purely a practical matter (which you could at least make an argument for).

A few thoughts:

1) I assume Luccio has had to clean up wounded Wardens before (including undressing them). Inherently, the fact that a woman did it is no more skeevy to me than a man doing it.

2) Technically, unless there is a WoJ that clarifies the point, it is an assumption that Luccio is the one who cleaned him. All we know for sure is that he wakes up, is clean and naked in bed, and Luccio is cleaning herself. Michael or Thomas could have cleaned him, then Luccio come in later (after all, he was asleep for hours according to Thomas).
Note: I think she was, or at least assisted, but it is an assumption with the material as written.

Now, assuming she did clean Harry, and given that she is attracted to him, there is some skeeviness here. But that's primarily the fault of the mental pushing she's been given. (That is, it becomes creepy in hindsight as CG says above). Would she have undressed him and bathed him without the push? Maybe. After all, it needed to be done. Depends on if Thomas and Michael were willing to step up. (after all, if Luccio is not appropriate, then Murphy isn't and Molly certainly isn't). But Luccio certainly wouldn't be engaging in erotic sponge baths in front of him. It would be strictly business.

And that's the sad thing. Luccio is even more of a victim in this thing then Harry is.

[Mauve Shirt]

HEEEEEEY GUUUUUUUYS (https://twitter.com/AnneSowards/status/407566872981155840)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Beats me. Though maybe it's because in pre-industrial times, crops/agriculture/animals were "technology" as far as people and wizards understood. The most complicated mechanical machinery they had were things like wheeled carts or church bells, and the bulk of the population was rural-based. As society developed and urban populations became the norm, the wizards and their self-projected MF developed to match - the 'complicated' and 'technical' (and thus countered by magic) things in life were now a function of machinery.
I thoroughly endorse this view. Magic mucks up what is complex and civilized from the reference point of the magician.


I'd expect it to be more gradual, anyways, since it would be really weird if, for centuries, wizards curdled milk by being near them then woke up one day and every wizard in the world could have all the milk they wanted but couldn't ride the newfangled steam engines that had been invented a decade ago. Nor would it make sense for wizards like the Merlin to melt computers if he was born/trained after the 'switch', but before anything like a computer had even been conceived of. Though we don't know when the last 'switch' point was, assuming a hard-and-fast changeover.
This comes from the DFRPG, so the value of it as canonical information is a little questionable, but the game suggests (I can dig up the reference when I get home) that hexing is actually different in its time frame for each wizard: i.e. the older technology that Harry doesn't have trouble with (older cars and such) might get totally fried by an older wizard.

HEEEEEEY GUUUUUUUYS (https://twitter.com/AnneSowards/status/407566872981155840)
WOOP WOOP!

Of course, the pressure's on for me to blaze through the series on my reread, now......

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Rereading the series, btw, to get ready for Skin Game. Noticed something interesting early on, though maybe Butcher superseded it with other things later.


For obvious reasons, I can't use a computer to store information and keep track of the slowly changing laws of quasiphysics.

To me, this indicates that from Harry's perspective, the rules by which magic operates are manifested in constantly-changing ways. I'm gonna have to follow that notion and see if it pops up again in the books.

[Feytalist]

Rereading the series, btw, to get ready for Skin Game. Noticed something interesting early on, though maybe Butcher superseded it with other things later.



To me, this indicates that from Harry's perspective, the rules by which magic operates are manifested in constantly-changing ways. I'm gonna have to follow that notion and see if it pops up again in the books.

Yeah, I'm doing the same. Halfway through Grave Peril now.

I actually noticed the same thing. Also, later on (somewhere in Fool Moon?), Harry mentions that's why Bob is so invaluable; his knowledge is so vast that he can extrapolate on the new laws (using X instead of Y in a potion, stuff like that).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Have you ever felt despair? Absolute hopelessness? Have you ever stood in the darkness and known, deep in your heart, in your spirit, that it was never, ever going to get better? That something had been lost, forever, and that it wasn't coming back?

Oh, Harry, you poor, poor, clueless thing.

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh, Harry, you poor, poor, clueless thing.

It's almost laughable.

I love how jam-packed with foreshadowing the older books are, but Harry's cluelessness and low power level is almost shocking. That's kind of how Ghost Story felt, come to think of it.

[Mauve Shirt]

So Bombshells,
Cute story. I like how even in a short story with an ending I already know, Jim can make me feel excited about what the characters are doing, and even fear for their wellbeing. That said, he really can't separate first person voice from Harry's voice.
At first I was kind of like, yay, Molly kind of sounds like herself! But then I realized that Jim was using the same "I'm not Harry Dresden" trick that he used in Backup, Aftermath and Even Hand. Seriously, does every single alternate PoV story have to continue to remind us that they're an alternate PoV? It just reads like they obsess over our protagonist. Which I can believe from Murphy and Molly, whose short stories both take place in the traumatic aftermath of Changes and Harry's death/undeath. But not Thomas and Marcone. Thomas's story took place in the happy times between White Night and Small Favor, and Marcone's took place shortly before Changes as well. They're all strong enough in their own right that they don't have to justify their existence as separate characters.
Murphy and Molly both did kind of have the "I'm not as good as Harry!" thing going on. I'd like to see some Thomas PoV from between Changes, see if he justifies his not-being-Harry-Dresden as much.

[123456789blaaa]

So Bombshells,
Cute story. I like how even in a short story with an ending I already know, Jim can make me feel excited about what the characters are doing, and even fear for their wellbeing. That said, he really can't separate first person voice from Harry's voice.
At first I was kind of like, yay, Molly kind of sounds like herself! But then I realized that Jim was using the same "I'm not Harry Dresden" trick that he used in Backup, Aftermath and Even Hand. Seriously, does every single alternate PoV story have to continue to remind us that they're an alternate PoV? It just reads like they obsess over our protagonist. Which I can believe from Murphy and Molly, whose short stories both take place in the traumatic aftermath of Changes and Harry's death/undeath. But not Thomas and Marcone. Thomas's story took place in the happy times between White Night and Small Favor, and Marcone's took place shortly before Changes as well. They're all strong enough in their own right that they don't have to justify their existence as separate characters.
Murphy and Molly both did kind of have the "I'm not as good as Harry!" thing going on. I'd like to see some Thomas PoV from between Changes, see if he justifies his not-being-Harry-Dresden as much.

There was this fantastic thread OP on the JB boards about Thomas that I think handily explains this. I'll see if I can find it.

Unrelated: Does anyone have any mythological creatures that they hope will show up in the future of the books? I'd was hoping to see JB's version of the Ahuizotl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahuizotl_(creature)) but now that the major Aztec-themed baddies have been taken out of play, I doubt we will :smallfrown:.

[BRC]

So Bombshells,
Cute story. I like how even in a short story with an ending I already know, Jim can make me feel excited about what the characters are doing, and even fear for their wellbeing. That said, he really can't separate first person voice from Harry's voice.
At first I was kind of like, yay, Molly kind of sounds like herself! But then I realized that Jim was using the same "I'm not Harry Dresden" trick that he used in Backup, Aftermath and Even Hand. Seriously, does every single alternate PoV story have to continue to remind us that they're an alternate PoV? It just reads like they obsess over our protagonist. Which I can believe from Murphy and Molly, whose short stories both take place in the traumatic aftermath of Changes and Harry's death/undeath. But not Thomas and Marcone. Thomas's story took place in the happy times between White Night and Small Favor, and Marcone's took place shortly before Changes as well. They're all strong enough in their own right that they don't have to justify their existence as separate characters.
Murphy and Molly both did kind of have the "I'm not as good as Harry!" thing going on. I'd like to see some Thomas PoV from between Changes, see if he justifies his not-being-Harry-Dresden as much.

Part of the issue is that Dresden's Voice is such a key part of the series that I'm not sure Jim ever really bothered to come up with a good internal voice for the other characters, since he would only need to do so for these short stories.

That said, from what I recall Marcone's story did not include any "I'm not Harry Dresden" moments. Marcone is too confident to do that.

Still, Dresden is very much the center of his world. He's generally the group's strategist, most knowledgeable member, and biggest gun all at once. He's also been both Molly and Murphy's guide to the world of the supernatural, so it's not that unusual that they think about him when they're in over their heads.

[The Glyphstone]

Part of the issue is that Dresden's Voice is such a key part of the series that I'm not sure Jim ever really bothered to come up with a good internal voice for the other characters, since he would only need to do so for these short stories.

That said, from what I recall Marcone's story did not include any "I'm not Harry Dresden" moments. Marcone is too confident to do that.

Still, Dresden is very much the center of his world. He's generally the group's strategist, most knowledgeable member, and biggest gun all at once. He's also been both Molly and Murphy's guide to the world of the supernatural, so it's not that unusual that they think about him when they're in over their heads.



He actually says it explicitly, though the tone isn't really a lack of confidence.


Obviously, I am not Harry Dresden. My name is something I rarely trouble to remember, but for most of my adult life, I have been called John Marcone.

[Rakaydos]

Where can I find Even Hand?

[Mauve Shirt]

It's in a book called Dark and Stormy Knights. I would never recommend doing this, but there are some PDFs of it floating around the Internet as well.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Nyuuuuuuuurgh. I'm half-tempted to go in for the novella alone on the Kindle edition. But I should just wait for the next anthology to come out.

[Thrawn183]

Unrelated: Does anyone have any mythological creatures that they hope will show up in the future of the books?

I'd be interested in seeing Thor and Loki. I'd like to see how dragons actually operate. Oh, and the Easter Bunny. I have no idea how JB would have Michael interact with the Easter Bunny, but I'm sure it would be hilarious.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

OH MY GOSH I want the Easter Bunny now.

And I don't know where, but I've heard that JB plans to bring dragons back in. Given what we already saw in Grave Peril...that'll be somethin' else.

I'm also rather curious--maybe we've already seen Loki show up?

Oooh, it'd be cool to see Anansi making an appearance, in that vein.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm also rather curious--maybe we've already seen Loki show up?

As who exactly?

[Anderlith]

As who exactly?

Mister. duh :P

[CarpeGuitarrem]

As who exactly?
No clue. I'd be amused if we had a sudden reveal that Loki's been screwing with stuff behind-the-scenes though.

Wait, wait, wait for it...

Loki is Cowl.

[Mauve Shirt]

Lol, I'm not sure Loki's crazed enough to be Cowl.

[Soras Teva Gee]

No clue. I'd be amused if we had a sudden reveal that Loki's been screwing with stuff behind-the-scenes though.

Wait, wait, wait for it...

Loki is Cowl.

Sure. Why not?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Heh. I won't continue to speak on it, but it's now my official ridiculous crack theory.

[Lamech]

Okay, how old is Mister? He was a big cat at the start of the first story, so a couple of years, and he has lived for 13 years after that. He needs to be getting old. But he seems just as active as ever. Plus I don't think Butcher is cruel enough to kill Mister so he's got another 10ish books/years in him. Which raises the question, what is he? Also WoJ IIRC says he would be able to take everything we've seen on screen so far. Which gives me my theory Mister=The White God.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Mister is a just a cat. Clearly he could take everything we've met including Ferrovax, Mab, and Uriel with one paw... thus secure in his inestimable superiority he simply has Harry to do those things as is the just and righteous order of the universe.

Clearly you must not be a cat owner. All us happy slaves know this.

[Feytalist]

I'm interested in seeing something to do with dragons, as well. I'd imagine that one of the next books will feature them more prominently.

Just done with Blood Rites, now. I think I flew through 3 books this weekend. Helps if you know what's going to happen, heh.

Took note of something mildly interesting. All the books so far has the other characters mostly call Harry "Dresden". Blood Rites is one where basically all the characters call him "Harry". It's...weird. Also appropriate, since it's where he finds out about Thomas, gets closer to Murphy, stuff like that. Maybe intentional?

[Lamech]

Mister is a just a cat. Clearly he could take everything we've met including Ferrovax, Mab, and Uriel with one paw... thus secure in his inestimable superiority he simply has Harry to do those things as is the just and righteous order of the universe.

Clearly you must not be a cat owner. All us happy slaves know this.So Mister is the White God? Or possibly the Tabby God? :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

Speaking about Mister... I really want to see Cat Sith again.

[The Glyphstone]

So Mister is the White God? Or possibly the Tabby God? :smalltongue:

He is Ceiling Cat, obviously.

[Ronnoc]

I'd be interested in seeing Thor and Loki. I'd like to see how dragons actually operate. Oh, and the Easter Bunny. I have no idea how JB would have Michael interact with the Easter Bunny, but I'm sure it would be hilarious.

My current head-canon is that Loki is the British sounding entity imprisoned on Demonreach.

[123456789blaaa]

Speaking about Mister... I really want to see Cat Sith again.

I was so depressed when he got infected. Such a cool character and it looks like Jim threw him away in the book he was introduced in! :smallfrown:

[Cikomyr]

Speaking about Mister... I really want to see Cat Sith again.

Probably the single most tragic loss of the recent books.

[Thrawn183]

I actually disliked Cat because I feel like he backed JB into a corner with Nemesis.

[123456789blaaa]

I actually disliked Cat because I feel like he backed JB into a corner with Nemesis.

Hm? Could you elaborate?

[Thrawn183]

Hm? Could you elaborate?

Cat was a creature that Harry really didn't stand a chance against. He was too good. The melee equivalent to a sniper bullet that takes out a wizard before they know what hit them. I'll come back to this.

Prior to the introduction of Cat, what had we seen from Nemesis? It wasn't about making people less effective, it was about making people act differently. In fact, when we get our first real explanation about Nemesis, what really made it so dangerous was that it was nigh undetectable. Not even the Gatekeeper could guarantee creatures were Nemesis free.

Up to this point Harry has survived because when it came to powerful enemies he wasn't their primary target (red court), they didn't necessarily want him dead from the get-go (skinwalker), he had significant allies helping him, or he had prior warning and was able to prepare.

So what does Nemesis-Cat present? A real problem. He doesn't fall into any of the previous categories, so what choices does that leave? Either making Harry somehow able to take on Cat without getting blended into fine human puree, or make Nemesis significantly weaken its host; and that's exactly what happened. Harry was able to tell that Cat was infected, and even said that Cat wasn't acting anything like himself.

So where does that leave us? Simple, the introduction of Cat as a character that is essentially wizard kryptonite meant that Nemesis had to be weakened for it to make any kind of sense that Harry would prevail. It's sort of like when an author introduces a villain that is too effective and has to have them carry an idiot ball for the protagonist to defeat them.

[Anderlith]

It's not that Nemesis weakened Cat Sith. It's that Nemesis has plans for Harry. Also it probably is an entity that while it can infect multiple hosts it can also assume direct control. If it was in direct control then of course Cat Sith won't act like Cat Sith it'll act like Nemesis & it will fight like Nemesis. If Nemesis's plans were for Harry to be dead & it allowed Cat Sith to do this on his own then Harry would be fancy feast.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Cat was a creature that Harry really didn't stand a chance against. He was too good. The melee equivalent to a sniper bullet that takes out a wizard before they know what hit them. I'll come back to this.

Well Harry's survived being sniped twice now...

[123456789blaaa]

I thought it was clear that there are degrees of Nemesis infection. You have the "nigh indetectable" version that subtly influences the host but can't force them to do anything. At the same time, you also have the "take direct control" version that allows you to basically make them your puppet but has the downside of being much more easily detectable. Nemesis wasn't weakened, we just found out it had another tool in its toolbox. Cat Sith was just too focused on obeying Mab and helping Harry so the "subtly influence" verison wouldn't have worked. Nemesis was forced to use the other.

[Avilan the Grey]

I thought it was clear that there are degrees of Nemesis infection. You have the "nigh indetectable" version that subtly influences the host but can't force them to do anything. At the same time, you also have the "take direct control" version that allows you to basically make them your puppet but has the downside of being much more easily detectable. Nemesis wasn't weakened, we just found out it had another tool in its toolbox. Cat Sith was just too focused on obeying Mab and helping Harry so the "subtly influence" verison wouldn't have worked. Nemesis was forced to use the other.

This, in fact, is very VERY close to the Indoctrination in Mass Effect...

[Lamech]

Nemesis was at first presented as what it could do. Infect people, be hard to detect, and influence them. Free them from certain constraints. Now its really easy to ascribe unlimited powers to it since its an unknown. Which of course should raise the question: Why hasn't Nemesis just borged everyone and won?

Simple, it doesn't have unlimited abilities to do all those things. When it quickly infects someone and takes full control like it did Cait Sith it doesn't get the full power of Cait Sith. It probably has other limits too. Its not God. It never was. It was simply unknown.

[Cikomyr]

Nemesis was at first presented as what it could do. Infect people, be hard to detect, and influence them. Free them from certain constraints. Now its really easy to ascribe unlimited powers to it since its an unknown. Which of course should raise the question: Why hasn't Nemesis just borged everyone and won?

Simple, it doesn't have unlimited abilities to do all those things. When it quickly infects someone and takes full control like it did Cait Sith it doesn't get the full power of Cait Sith. It probably has other limits too. Its not God. It never was. It was simply unknown.

AFAIK, the White God (God) has limits too...


Maybe Cat Sith's spirit has been preserved into Mister? Would maybe explain why Cat Sith had taken a liking to Harry

[Cikomyr]

What I have done?! :smalleek:

In my current XCom : Enemy Unknown game, one of my medic is named "Molly", and is naturally blonde. For some reason, I had the bonehead move of giving her the nickname of "Grasshopper"

Stupid stupid me... I might have painted a bullseye on her head. Next you'll tell me she is Psychic...

[Cristo Meyers]

What I have done?! :smalleek:

In my current XCom : Enemy Unknown game, one of my medic is named "Molly", and is naturally blonde. For some reason, I had the bonehead move of giving her the nickname of "Grasshopper"

Stupid stupid me... I might have painted a bullseye on her head. Next you'll tell me she is Psychic...

If I can get through the game with a pink-haired sniper nicknamed "Tonks," you can get through with a Grasshopper named Molly. :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

AFAIK, the White God (God) has limits too...

Umm why would you think that exactly?

Harry's silliness about belief magic in book 3 that so help me hasn't been mentioned since? The Swords working on no really everything even Outsiders? The hints that Mr. Sunshine has universal responsibilities and powers? Comments by Lash about being old as time and such?

[Cikomyr]

Umm why would you think that exactly?

Harry's silliness about belief magic in book 3 that so help me hasn't been mentioned since? The Swords working on no really everything even Outsiders? The hints that Mr. Sunshine has universal responsibilities and powers? Comments by Lash about being old as time and such?

He is said to follow rules and limitations, is he not?

In my book, a limit is somewhat limiting.

[Benthesquid]

Art is communication if it's worth anything at all.

Eh, no. Art is communication. Art is evocation. Art is invocation (although this isn't always worth sharing). Art is exorcism, creation, therapy, encryption. All of which have their own value, that is necessarily dependent on communicating anything to any given audience.

[datalaughing]

He is said to follow rules and limitations, is he not?

In my book, a limit is somewhat limiting.

If they're self-imposed limits, like you COULD eat that cookie, but you choose not to because you're on a diet, does that still count as a limitation since if you changed your mind you could eat the cookie anyway?

[123456789blaaa]

If they're self-imposed limits, like you COULD eat that cookie, but you choose not to because you're on a diet, does that still count as a limitation since if you changed your mind you could eat the cookie anyway?

If the WG truly has no limits, than doesn't that mean that he could somehow eat the cookie without breaking his diet? If he's still restrained by logic, than he still has limits no?

[The Glyphstone]

If the WG truly has no limits, than doesn't that mean that he could somehow eat the cookie without breaking his diet? If he's still restrained by logic, than he still has limits no?

The baker's paradox: Can an omnipotent being create a cookie so sweet and calorie-rich that even he must gain weight from eating it?

[Cikomyr]

If they're self-imposed limits, like you COULD eat that cookie, but you choose not to because you're on a diet, does that still count as a limitation since if you changed your mind you could eat the cookie anyway?

It doesn't matter if the limits are self-imposed or not. They are still limits. And whatever reasons the WG have for following them, it's stronger than his desires to interfere.

Maybe it for morality. Maybe it's because it's some sort of covenant with another entity. Who knows?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The baker's paradox: Can an omnipotent being create a cookie so sweet and calorie-rich that even he must gain weight from eating it?
I love it. I'm gonna have to use that in the future.

Though, in seriousness, if one talks about "not having limits", it brings up more fundamental questions. Like--if there is a limitless being, does that mean that said being does not adhere to the Law of Identity? (That is, "A is A".) There's limits, and then there's Limits--can a limitless being commit that which is actually impossible? (As opposed to that which is unfeasible, which humans often misuse the term "impossible" to mean. Or, rather, "impossible" means "impossible for a human".)

[Cikomyr]

I love it. I'm gonna have to use that in the future.

Though, in seriousness, if one talks about "not having limits", it brings up more fundamental questions. Like--if there is a limitless being, does that mean that said being does not adhere to the Law of Identity? (That is, "A is A".) There's limits, and then there's Limits--can a limitless being commit that which is actually impossible? (As opposed to that which is unfeasible, which humans often misuse the term "impossible" to mean. Or, rather, "impossible" means "impossible for a human".)

Like burning water?

As in; no the vaporisation of water from liquid to steam. Not a burning reaction of some chemical component provoked by the presence of water.

But the ACTUAL BURNING of water molecule; which should be theorically impossible. Something that actually defies reality on a fundamental level.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If the WG truly has no limits, than doesn't that mean that he could somehow eat the cookie without breaking his diet? If he's still restrained by logic, than he still has limits no?

Descartes answer on the nature of omnipotence is that it indeed can do the highly illogical and actively contradictory. Literally: just 'cuz anything means anything.

We mere mortals merely cannot grasp such a concept very well.

Other views are out there. I'm with Mr. Thinker myself on omnipotence but see the others as more "defining" omnipotence then ascribing true limits. Because most of these sorts of logic bombs arise from toying with things defined to be the opposite of one another, I'd argue that omnipotence creating a limited situation with an opposite that then counters... isn't a meaningful limit.


It doesn't matter if the limits are self-imposed or not. They are still limits. And whatever reasons the WG have for following them, it's stronger than his desires to interfere.

Maybe it for morality. Maybe it's because it's some sort of covenant with another entity. Who knows?

Well a self-imposed limitation would allow for say a hypothetical Godzilla Threshold at which they would be disregarded. And merely 'logical' limitations aren't going to be terribly meaningful unless for some reason there is someone that can break those.

And the more practical end of this is how far up can our stakes go?

Like the Outsider conflict, could be more of a "turf war" for supernatural entities like the Faires and there would be limits on what Outsiders could do to the mortal (living and dead) world even in victory for example. As opposed to say the absolute annhilation of everything by eldritch and alien entities.

[Cikomyr]

Well a self-imposed limitation would allow for say a hypothetical Godzilla Threshold at which they would be disregarded. And merely 'logical' limitations aren't going to be terribly meaningful unless for some reason there is someone that can break those.

And the more practical end of this is how far up can our stakes go?

Like the Outsider conflict, could be more of a "turf war" for supernatural entities like the Faires and there would be limits on what Outsiders could do to the mortal (living and dead) world even in victory for example. As opposed to say the absolute annhilation of everything by eldritch and alien entities.

Why wouldn't the White God have created the Outsiders as well as our world?

You work under the assumption that WG (we need to have a better name than this acronym. I'm calling Him Wedge). You work under the assumption that Wedge is omnipotent. Then he created everything; otherwise something ELSE has created the Outsiders outside of his domain, and thus Wedge ain't omniponent.

[Anderlith]

The Outsiders are only monstrous because they are foreign creatures from an unknowable world. They do not belong here they are anathema to our realm. But back in their realm they fit in just fine. They belong there.

The White God created all the different realms/dimensions/branes/planes & any other word you would like to use to differentiate the Outsiders home & ours. He created this one for us & the Outsiders home for outsiders. But now the Outsiders are trying to invade other worlds

[123456789blaaa]

From what we see of his forces (Uriel, the KotC), Wedge clearly values Free Will. That's why he lets us humans do horrible things to each other despite not liking that at all. However, if he was omnipotent, than wouldn't he be able to enable Free Will to the fullest while also not letting things like the torturing of Shiro happen?

There's also how multiple RL religions are "true" in the books. Jim has gone on record as saying that he really doesn't want to offend believers. Making Wedge omnipotent kind of trivializes the Hindu gods (for example). I'd say that Jim is going to do a handwavy "the truth of the matter is too complex for humans to understand" or something to that effect.


The Outsiders are only monstrous because they are foreign creatures from an unknowable world. They do not belong here they are anathema to our realm. But back in their realm they fit in just fine. They belong there.

The White God created all the different realms/dimensions/branes/planes & any other word you would like to use to differentiate the Outsiders home & ours. He created this one for us & the Outsiders home for outsiders. But now the Outsiders are trying to invade other worlds

What evidence do you have for these assertions? Can I get some quotes?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

From what we see of his forces (Uriel, the KotC), Wedge clearly values Free Will. That's why he lets us humans do horrible things to each other despite not liking that at all. However, if he was omnipotent, than wouldn't he be able to enable Free Will to the fullest while also not letting things like the torturing of Shiro happen?

It wouldn't really be free will, then, would it? Calling it "free" will would then be a falsehood. I get the feeling that Wedge is not onboard with falsehood. Doing something like that would require Wedge to be dishonest.

[123456789blaaa]

It wouldn't really be free will, then, would it? Calling it "free" will would then be a falsehood. I get the feeling that Wedge is not onboard with falsehood. Doing something like that would require Wedge to be dishonest.

But if he's omnipotent than he can literally do anything. He could use his omnipotence-power to somehow interfere and keep it as "Free" Will at the same time.This is why I think he's not omnipotent, just extremely powerful.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

In that case, though, the idea of "free" would cease to have meaning. It becomes arbitrary ("well, sometimes, freedom means 'unrestricted'..."), and therefore not actually reality. You can't mess with ontologically foundational concepts without consequences. :smallwink:

I think it's a bit of a cop-out to say that something which seems nonsensical in concept to us is simply beyond our ken. The idea that omnipotence can redefine definition itself is just begging to go down the rabbit-hole of absurdity.

(Case in point: can an omnipotent being never have existed? They can do anything, after all, so they can never exist. But they should also be able to simultaneously exist, because they can do anything, including existing and not existing at the same time. Schroedinger's Omnipotence. Can an omnipotent being also be not omnipotent? Because they can do anything, including being not omnipotent. At the same time that they are omnipotent. See my point? :smallbiggrin: )

[Cikomyr]

For what we've seen, Wedge creates the universe, he creates the rules and he creates balancing forces. these forces all have free will; be it Humanity, the Angels, the Fay, the Denerims or the Outsiders.

Wedge does not control what everybody wants to do; he merely has created measures to deal with what he feels are disruptions; undesired interferences.

The Outsiders have decided of their own free will to conquer our 'verse, and Wedge created the Winter Fay to protect ourselves against the Outsiders. And then created the Summer Fay to protect ourselves against Winter.

Each and everyone in these factions can decide to just throw their hands in the air and say "screw it" if they will it so, and Wedge has nothing to say about it. However, he prepare contingencies ahead.


So.. Wedge cannot do anything. The question is not "would Wedge interfere", but instead "has Wedge planned for that eventuality?"


Btw: I really love this pet name of ours.

[Lamech]

I would say omnipotence doesn't mean you can do the illogical. That said many things we think of as "logical" really just have underlying assumptions that an omnipotent being could play merry hell with.

[123456789blaaa]

In that case, though, the idea of "free" would cease to have meaning. It becomes arbitrary ("well, sometimes, freedom means 'unrestricted'..."), and therefore not actually reality. You can't mess with ontologically foundational concepts without consequences. :smallwink:

I think it's a bit of a cop-out to say that something which seems nonsensical in concept to us is simply beyond our ken. The idea that omnipotence can redefine definition itself is just begging to go down the rabbit-hole of absurdity.

And this is another reason why Wedge probably isn't omnipotent. Does JB really want to have to deal with this stuff? Why would even bother when it wouldn't clash with the DF at all to have Wedge be non-omnipotent? Unless it's extremely crucial to some future plot, I just don't see a reason for JB to make him omnipotent and a bunch of reasons not to.


For what we've seen, Wedge creates the universe, he creates the rules and he creates balancing forces. these forces all have free will; be it Humanity, the Angels, the Fay, the Denerims or the Outsiders.

Wedge does not control what everybody wants to do; he merely has created measures to deal with what he feels are disruptions; undesired interferences.

The Outsiders have decided of their own free will to conquer our 'verse, and Wedge created the Winter Fay to protect ourselves against the Outsiders. And then created the Summer Fay to protect ourselves against Winter.

Each and everyone in these factions can decide to just throw their hands in the air and say "screw it" if they will it so, and Wedge has nothing to say about it. However, he prepare contingencies ahead.


So.. Wedge cannot do anything. The question is not "would Wedge interfere", but instead "has Wedge planned for that eventuality?"


Btw: I really love this pet name of ours.

While the forces of Wedge and his enemies down below might think he created the universe, I'd say that there's a strong possibility that the truth is much more complex.

Also, where are you getting that Outsiders have Free Will?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Why wouldn't the White God have created the Outsiders as well as our world?

I don't presume otherwise... my working conceptual frame work is

Its all just the Venatori's mess.


But if he's omnipotent than he can literally do anything. He could use his omnipotence-power to somehow interfere and keep it as "Free" Will at the same time.This is why I think he's not omnipotent, just extremely powerful.

Desire to is not the same as capability.

And leave it there for the purposes of this thread methinks


I think it's a bit of a cop-out to say that something which seems nonsensical in concept to us is simply beyond our ken. The idea that omnipotence can redefine definition itself is just begging to go down the rabbit-hole of absurdity.


That very absurdity is something of the point. Why do you question absurdity if anything means anything doesn't it override that? Isn't that just your bias towards a nice rational and understandable world rearing its head? Are you questioning absolutely everything enough. Solipsistically enough? That's the sort of abstract removal from the (presumed) common experience of reality we are talking about here.

Likewise shouldn't by definition we be incapable of understanding something beyond our understanding. Wouldn't understanding everything potentially require infinite capacity for understanding. I think as much as we can know that we can conclude most people are too busy to understand everything and instead specialize, which implies less then infinite ability to comprehend as a species. So isn't it simply another bias to assume that we can understand everything merely because we've expanded knowledge in the past. (Obviously the universe *may* be completely comprehensible but that is essentially happenstance in this circumstand.

Something vaguely like how science presents situations we cannot visualize. Can the circle grasp the sphere? Or perhaps even the reverse since even Flatland cheated with a miniscule third dimension for our benefit.

I dare venture most folks heads will just give up. And that's why Mr. Sunshine and Lash going "you wouldn't understand" is passable... certainly Jim Butcher isn't going to give us these sorts of abstract answers. If they were easy people wouldn't still ask them.

[Lamech]

For all intents and purposes the WG, a.k.a. Wedge a.k.a. Mister is Omnipotent. An archangel could explode every planet everywhere. Mister is the one who decided to limit angels. Wedge is omniscient on top of that. WG might as well be all-powerful.

[Mauve Shirt]

Huh. I was under the impression that Wedge created reality. As in, our reality, including Faeries and the like. But not the outside.

[Avilan the Grey]

Why wouldn't the White God have created the Outsiders as well as our world?

Because both Heaven and Hell are part of the Never Never? The books clearly states that.


Huh. I was under the impression that Wedge created reality. As in, our reality, including Faeries and the like. But not the outside.

Exactly my thought.

[Lamech]

Because both Heaven and Hell are part of the Never Never? The books clearly states that.

Not at all. The Nevernever contains "everything", but its all lies really. You get to Heaven by dying, going to the in between train station and taking the North-bound train. In the Nevernever you can get something that looks like whatever you imagine Heaven to be. With a little Lucid dreaming, you can probably make your own heaven, and fill it with whatever details you want. But its not the Heaven where the dead go.

[123456789blaaa]

Not at all. The Nevernever contains "everything", but its all lies really. You get to Heaven by dying, going to the in between train station and taking the North-bound train. In the Nevernever you can get something that looks like whatever you imagine Heaven to be. With a little Lucid dreaming, you can probably make your own heaven, and fill it with whatever details you want. But its not the Heaven where the dead go.

Can I get some quotes and evidence to back up these assertions?

EDIT: Like, why can't the Northbound Train be going to the NN?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Huh. I was under the impression that Wedge created reality. As in, our reality, including Faeries and the like. But not the outside.

We still don't have a good picture on what Outside is in a full sense to call it not a part of "creation" if you will, just not considered part of reality. He don't know much of the past or how this stuff got set up.

Though Thomas's side story with some of Harry's off hand mention line up to maybe tell us. I keep idea that well salted though so it doesn't go bad on me.

Michael cutting up Outsiders without even noticing in Proven Guilty and for that matter Harry's own super special status suggests to me that the Outsiders aren't somehow accounted for in the Big Plan.


Because both Heaven and Hell are part of the Never Never? The books clearly states that.

Wasn't that very early on? Anything from the first three books or so should be taken very loosely for cosmology

For example in book one there Toot threatens to "Tell the Queen" and its singular not "oh which one?" or anything nevermind he's Wyldfae. Harry mumbles stuff about Michael running on faith magic in book three and hasn't much since then.

That said the Nevernever in the sense of "not Earth" can still imply... but they may well run on special rules.

[123456789blaaa]

We still don't have a good picture on what Outside is in a full sense to call it not a part of "creation" if you will, just not considered part of reality. He don't know much of the past or how this stuff got set up.

Though Thomas's side story with some of Harry's off hand mention line up to maybe tell us. I keep idea that well salted though so it doesn't go bad on me.

Michael cutting up Outsiders without even noticing in Proven Guilty and for that matter Harry's own super special status suggests to me that the Outsiders aren't somehow accounted for in the Big Plan.
<snip>

I really like the idea that the Outside is The Deeps and the Outsiders are Tehom (both from Abrahamic mythology). I may be biased a bit :smalltongue:.Here's (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,38033.msg1864324.html#msg1864324) more details if anyone's interested. Disregard the parts where I call it a "theory" if you wish. I'm not trying to argue that it will be included in the books. It's just a favorite idea of mine that I think makes a lot of sense.


Wasn't that very early on? Anything from the first three books or so should be taken very loosely for cosmology

For example in book one there Toot threatens to "Tell the Queen" and its singular not "oh which one?" or anything nevermind he's Wyldfae. Harry mumbles stuff about Michael running on faith magic in book three and hasn't much since then.

That said the Nevernever in the sense of "not Earth" can still imply... but they may well run on special rules.

I don't have the book so I can't get an exact quote but I do remember Bob saying that almost everything exists in the NN (spiderman was the specific example IIRC) in Cold Days. There's also a WoJ I recall where Jim says you can go to the Star Wars universe in the DF (though it would be quite hard) but you wouldn't want to (jedi are scary if you aren't one). I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I really like the idea that the Outside is The Deeps and the Outsiders are Tehom (both from Abrahamic mythology). I may be biased a bit :smalltongue:.Here's (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,38033.msg1864324.html#msg1864324) more details if anyone's interested. Disregard the parts where I call it a "theory" if you wish. I'm not trying to argue that it will be included in the books. It's just a favorite idea of mine that I think makes a lot of sense.

I'd be a little surprised by anything so specific.

I will point out that a Tiamat connection weakens things by the way... she's not an Outsider and has been mentioned to have benefited from the Monster Manual.

Also your own quote from the Walker would raise an inconsistency with being the remnants of before the world. If they were always outside the world was never theirs.

Also since when do Outsiders have a hivemind? So help me it was stated they all work together, which is different. Nemesis quite probably is some form of that, but we don't strictly know yet.

[Lamech]

Can I get some quotes and evidence to back up these assertions?

EDIT: Like, why can't the Northbound Train be going to the NN?

Because no one knows what happens after you die. If you can just walk up to the somewhere in the NN and find everyone's soul that would go away in about two seconds. The dead in general, do not end up in the Nevernever. They end up in the start of Ghost Story.

I don't have my books at school nor would I have time to dig though them, but it would be hard to make much sense if they were in the NN.

[Anderlith]

Okay. Look at it this way.

There is all of creation. This is everything that does/can exist.

Creation is divided up in it's own little bubbles so that no part is anathema to any other. (In other words "Don't cross the streams")

Dresden's Earth is one reality, Fury's world is another, the outsider's yet another.

Focusing on Dresden's Earth there is the material plane, & the NeverNever. The NeverNever is a nebulous metaexistance based upon the metabeliefs of the material plane. The NeverNever extends out/within our Reality until it reaches it's conclusion at the Outer Gates. Because this is a metaexistance don't picture it as map with concentric circles. The Outer Gates symbolizes the furthest extent our our Reality. Kind of like a Lemniscate that ties the ends of Reality together. This is why the Outsiders are attacking it. It is literally a figurative existence of mortal thought & all of mortal thought can reside within (though it may be altered from common beliefs & ideas)

Now the outsiders come from another bubble reality & they want to get into ours as well.

Uri (don't forget the El) knows about Outsiders. Lashiel knows about Outsiders. The White Gods magic/will/Swords/Fists work just as well against them as any other evil threat.

This suggests that the White God (also viewed as the guy behind all of Creation) created the Outsiders as well. The White God exists outside of our Reality bubble within the whole of Creation. Heaven & Hell could be places in the NeverNever or a Reality bubble in their own right, we have no proof one way or another. Especially if you argue about the nature of Heaven as the mortal afterlife or as the Seat of the White God & his Host

[Cikomyr]

We call him Wedge :smallwink:

[Avilan the Grey]

Okay. Look at it this way.

There is all of creation. This is everything that does/can exist.

Creation is divided up in it's own little bubbles so that no part is anathema to any other. (In other words "Don't cross the streams")

Dresden's Earth is one reality, Fury's world is another, the outsider's yet another.

Focusing on Dresden's Earth there is the material plane, & the NeverNever. The NeverNever is a nebulous metaexistance based upon the metabeliefs of the material plane. The NeverNever extends out/within our Reality until it reaches it's conclusion at the Outer Gates. Because this is a metaexistance don't picture it as map with concentric circles. The Outer Gates symbolizes the furthest extent our our Reality. Kind of like a Lemniscate that ties the ends of Reality together. This is why the Outsiders are attacking it. It is literally a figurative existence of mortal thought & all of mortal thought can reside within (though it may be altered from common beliefs & ideas)

Now the outsiders come from another bubble reality & they want to get into ours as well.

The point is that until proven differently by the books, I am going by what the books say: The "Creation" is our universe and others like it. The outsiders are, as specified by the books themselves, OUTSIDE creation. They are NOT "another creation", they are outside REALITY as such.



Because no one knows what happens after you die. If you can just walk up to the somewhere in the NN and find everyone's soul that would go away in about two seconds. The dead in general, do not end up in the Nevernever. They end up in the start of Ghost Story.

I don't have my books at school nor would I have time to dig though them, but it would be hard to make much sense if they were in the NN.

And there's where you are wrong. It makes perfect sense.
Also, "The place in the beginning of Ghost Story" IS in the Never Never.
Besides If it was a place outside it, the guardians wouldn't need to exist.

[Anderlith]

The point is that until proven differently by the books, I am going by what the books say: The "Creation" is our universe and others like it. The outsiders are, as specified by the books themselves, OUTSIDE creation. They are NOT "another creation", they are outside REALITY as such.




And there's where you are wrong. It makes perfect sense.
Also, "The place in the beginning of Ghost Story" IS in the Never Never.
Besides If it was a place outside it, the guardians wouldn't need to exist.

My belief is that the Outsiders are only from outside of Dresden's Reality Bubble. But they do not reside outside of Creation, because they DO exist. Nothing exist is outside of Creation because Creation is all that can & does exist.

[Mauve Shirt]

Here's the exact quote from Bob.


"Spider-Man is pretend and doesn't count." I said.
"You start drawing distinctions like this now?" Bob asked. "Besides, he's real. Like, somewhere."
I blinked. "Um. What?"
"You think your universe is the only universe? Harry, come on. Creation, totally freaking huge. Room enough for you and Spider-Man both."

So Spiderman exists within Creation, but not necessarily within Harry's "universe." Perhaps the Venn diagram of Creation does contain the Outside.

Not that I necessarily believe that the White God's Creation is the one and only universe in the Dresdenverse cosmology.

[Avilan the Grey]

My belief is that the Outsiders are only from outside of Dresden's Reality Bubble. But they do not reside outside of Creation, because they DO exist. Nothing exist is outside of Creation because Creation is all that can & does exist.

Not according to the books.

[Cikomyr]

Not according to the books.

I'm gonna have to ask you for a reference.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Wow. Either Jim really plans ahead, or he's a great improviser. (Yeah, I'm a slow reader, but I'm making my way through.)


Michael stiffened. "I serve the Lord as I may."

Lea made a face. "Faugh. Just so. Holy." Her smile turned sly again. "But there are others whose lives you hold and can bargain with. You have children, do you not?" She shivered again and said, "Mortal children are so sweet. And can be bent and shaped in so many, many ways. Your eldest daughter, I think, would--"

:smalleek:

[Soras Teva Gee]

Six of one, half dozen of another...

[Mauve Shirt]

Wow. Either Jim really plans ahead, or he's a great improviser. (Yeah, I'm a slow reader, but I'm making my way through.)



:smalleek:

I. KNOW. RIGHT!!!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Anderlith]

I'm gonna have to ask you for a reference.

I will also need reference.

[123456789blaaa]

I'd be a little surprised by anything so specific.

I will point out that a Tiamat connection weakens things by the way... she's not an Outsider and has been mentioned to have benefited from the Monster Manual.

The connection is mostly just the name. The word Tehom derives from Tiamat. Other than that they don't really have any connections to one another (unlike say, Odin did with Santa). I may have bias clouding my perceptions though.


Also your own quote from the Walker would raise an inconsistency with being the remnants of before the world. If they were always outside the world was never theirs.

I do think they were Inside originally. They were just cast out by God into the Outside.


Also since when do Outsiders have a hivemind? So help me it was stated they all work together, which is different. Nemesis quite probably is some form of that, but we don't strictly know yet.

I remember it from Cold Days. I'll try to find a quote.


Because no one knows what happens after you die. If you can just walk up to the somewhere in the NN and find everyone's soul that would go away in about two seconds. The dead in general, do not end up in the Nevernever. They end up in the start of Ghost Story.

I don't have my books at school nor would I have time to dig though them, but it would be hard to make much sense if they were in the NN.

Travelling the NN is hard and extremely dangerous the farther out you go. That's why Maggie LeFay was considered crazy by other wizards. She explored uncharted NN territory. I see no reason why the place in Ghost Story couldn't be an extremely deep place in the NN.

[Lamech]

I'm all but positive that a single Outsider would look to us as multiple different creatures. Note the two appearances of HWWB. In one he is a freaky invisible humanoid, in another he is a creepy ass fish. I suspect at the very least the other walkers are similar.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm all but positive that a single Outsider would look to us as multiple different creatures. Note the two appearances of HWWB. In one he is a freaky invisible humanoid, in another he is a creepy ass fish. I suspect at the very least the other walkers are similar.

Are you sure you're not conflating the two Walkers? Walks Behind was invisible unless you caught him in a reflective surface behind you. Walks Before was the 'Sharkface' wrapped in rags.

[Avilan the Grey]

I will also need reference.

I don't have the books with me.

BUT.

In the very first book it is established that Heaven and Hell exists as part of the Nevernever. Not outside it.

In Cold days it is said that the wall against the outsiders marks the limits of Reality. Not "Our" reality, "reality".

In Ghost Story it is shown that "Limbo" ALSO is part of the Nevernever (where Harry ends up and where Murphy's dad tells him what to do).

There are other references as well, but if you combine these:

The Nevernever contans everything about Creation that doesn't fit in the mortal world. Including Limbo, Heaven and Hell.
The Nevernever borders on one side (metaphorically and probably metaphysically speaking) our world. It also acts like a buffer against whatever is outside reality.

Now, there is, of course a slight probability that the White God stands appart, but that would mean that He isn't in Heaven, he just created Heaven as a place for dead humans to reside in.

[Cikomyr]

I am sorry, but reviewing most of the wikis of Dresden Files do not indicate that Heaven and Hell are... well, anything. It's left deliberately vague. Are you sure it wasn't just Dresden's misconceived perception?



Also, checking up on the Wiki about Demons (which are NOT outsiders, apparently), it's interesting to notice that in Dead Beat, the Red Court had summoned Demons and Outsiders inside Fairy to hunt down he White Council.

With the power of retrospect and context, I suddenly realize it wasn't a good idea to do.

[123456789blaaa]

I don't have the book so I can't get an exact quote but I do remember Bob saying that almost everything exists in the NN (spiderman was the specific example IIRC) in Cold Days. There's also a WoJ I recall where Jim says you can go to the Star Wars universe in the DF (though it would be quite hard) but you wouldn't want to (jedi are scary if you aren't one). I'll see if I can dig it up.

Found it:


Have you ever had the idea to have a short story of Dresden crossing over into another universe, like Star Wars?

No, because I don't want to get sued. However, just so you're aware the Dresden Files universe exists in a big, wide, spectral multi-verse. It's not like there's parallel Earths. There's an entire broadcast spectrum of parallel Earths, and if you go far enough you'll find the parallel that's where ???. You'll find the parallel Earth where Star Wars stuff works, and so on. Dresden could get there if he wanted to, but stop and think about that for a minute: Would you really want to go the Star Wars universe? Because you're not going to be a jedi over there. Really jedi are a lot scarier on the ground level than they are from passenger seat view next to one. You know, "There's a bunch of heavily armed fanatics with mind control powers here; they say they want to talk to you." That's kind of spooky.

So yeah.

[Aidan305]

Skin Game Cover Art (http://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2013/skin-game-cover-art)

There's also a new blurb for the book. Turns out they're stealing:
The Holy Grail

[Cikomyr]

He's got a hat.

Off course, he's gotta have a hat.

Also.. when was the last time Harry used his revolver?!

[Lamech]

Are you sure you're not conflating the two Walkers? Walks Behind was invisible unless you caught him in a reflective surface behind you. Walks Before was the 'Sharkface' wrapped in rags.

HWWB, unless I'm totally misremembering, had his first appearance in Blood Rites. Powered the Entropy Ritual. Freaky spiny fish.
Edit: The wiki (http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/He_Who_Walks_Behind) describes him as a spined cloud in Blood Rites.

[Lamech]

He's got a hat.

Off course, he's gotta have a hat.

Also.. when was the last time Harry used his revolver?!

On the plus side his staff is no longer covered in Katakana.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Holy Action Hero Dresden, Batman!

[The Glyphstone]

HWWB, unless I'm totally misremembering, had his first appearance in Blood Rites. Powered the Entropy Ritual. Freaky spiny fish.
Edit: The wiki (http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/He_Who_Walks_Behind) describes him as a spined cloud in Blood Rites.

Right, he's also manifested as a spiky cloud. The fish-monster was the other Walker, though.

[Lamech]

To be fair, I was picturing his picture in the RPG, and he definitely looks like a fish monster there. I picture HWW Before as a pile of rags flying out.

Hey, I wonder if holy water burns outsiders? The swords do. And if it does what would happen if we built an aqueduct over the Outer Wall, and just sort of poured it in there.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'd imagine that building such an acqueduct would be an epic feat of construction...

[Cikomyr]

I'd imagine that building such an acqueduct would be an epic feat of construction...

But how do you secure such a supply of Holy Water? You collect all the water out of Wedge's bathroom?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

But how do you secure such a supply of Holy Water? You collect all the water out of Wedge's bathroom?
I can't put my finger on it, but there's got to be a way to make a "Holy $&#^!" joke from that.

[Cikomyr]

I can't put my finger on it, but there's got to be a way to make a "Holy $&#^!" joke from that.

Suddenly, the fact that our genetical ancestors are one of the few specie who throw poops makes a lot of sense.

We have been built to be His Army. And to conduct Holy Scatalogical Warfare on the Outsiders.

edit: just realized it would probably be so offensive to both Creationists and Evolutionists :smallbiggrin:

"Yes, God actually created us, but he did evolved us from Monkeys so we'd have the ability to throw our feces."

[Mauve Shirt]

Ok, in what kind of weird-ass mythical continuity did Hades, the Greek god of the Underworld, end up with the Holy Grail, the mythical cup of Christ? That's just a wacky crossover.

[Cikomyr]

We don't even know what the Greek Gods ARE. I mean, we have an indication that the Norse Gods were some sort of Fairy. As Odin is Santa Claus, apparently of the Winter Court.

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh, and also, Sinterklaas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas#Pre-Christian_Europe) rides with the wild hunt.

[123456789blaaa]

Ok, in what kind of weird-ass mythical continuity did Hades, the Greek god of the Underworld, end up with the Holy Grail, the mythical cup of Christ? That's just a wacky crossover.

Presumably the forces of Wedge gave it to him for safekeeping. Hades does run a bank after all. That's the point.

[Avilan the Grey]

I am sorry, but reviewing most of the wikis of Dresden Files do not indicate that Heaven and Hell are... well, anything. It's left deliberately vague. Are you sure it wasn't just Dresden's misconceived perception?

No. Dresden says in the first book, when explaining what the Nevernever is to the reader, that it does, with certainty, contain both Heaven and Hell.

As for Hades... Remember that in the Dresdenverse, Fairy is a part of the fabric of reality, part of the defense of Creation as such. I see no contradiction in mixing Greek gods and the Holy Grail or anything else.

[Lamech]

Suddenly, the fact that our genetical ancestors are one of the few specie who throw poops makes a lot of sense.

We have been built to be His Army. And to conduct Holy Scatalogical Warfare on the Outsiders.

edit: just realized it would probably be so offensive to both Creationists and Evolutionists :smallbiggrin:

"Yes, God actually created us, but he did evolved us from Monkeys so we'd have the ability to throw our feces."
Hmm... I'm not sure if Mister/Wedge produces enough waste to fill an aqueduct. I wonder how dilute you could make his kitty litter while still having anti-Outsider properties.

On that note, I also wonder what real Earth running water would do to the Nevernever.

[Cikomyr]

Hmm... I'm not sure if Mister/Wedge produces enough waste to fill an aqueduct. I wonder how dilute you could make his kitty litter while still having anti-Outsider properties.

On that note, I also wonder what real Earth running water would do to the Nevernever.

How about the entire Angelic Host's sewer system? I am pretty sure they qualify as "holy" too.

[Mauve Shirt]

There's no in-world contradiction, it's just not what I'd expect Hades to have.

[BRC]

It occurs to me that Hades and Harry are in basically the same line of work, what with Demonreach and Tartarus and all that.

[Cikomyr]

It occurs to me that Hades and Harry are in basically the same line of work, what with Demonreach and Tartarus and all that.

Maybe Hades was the first Warden? I mean, Merlin built the present's prison, but the prisonners were held elsewhere before?

[tomandtish]

No. Dresden says in the first book, when explaining what the Nevernever is to the reader, that it does, with certainty, contain both Heaven and Hell.

As for Hades... Remember that in the Dresdenverse, Fairy is a part of the fabric of reality, part of the defense of Creation as such. I see no contradiction in mixing Greek gods and the Holy Grail or anything else.

Actually, there seems to be a lot of back and forth. So I think a lot of it is what people may think or believe.

You get this reference in book 2 when talking to Kim:

I studied her face for a moment. “If I read the symbols correctly, it’s a third wall. Built to withhold creatures of flesh and spirit. Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in between.”
She frowned. “What kind of creatures are like that?”
I shrugged. “None,” I said, and officially, it was true. The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves. Usually, a spirit-circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever. But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.

You get a stronger reference in Book 4, but notice the last line (marked for emphasis).:

The Nevernever is a big place. In fact, it’s the biggest place. The Nevernever is what the wizards call the entirety of the realm of spirit. It isn’t a physical place, with geography and weather patterns and so on. It’s a shadow world, a magical realm, and its substance is as mutable as thought. It has a lot of names, like the Other Side and the Next World, and it contains within it just about any kind of spirit realm you can imagine, somewhere. Heaven, Hell, Olympus, Elysium, Tartarus, Gehenna—you name it, and it’s in the Nevernever somewhere.
In theory, at any rate.

So it seems clear that even Harry doesn't know for sure where Heaven and Hell are. There are theories, and people may have their beliefs, but there's no certainty on our end. Might be a good question for him to ask Uriel next time they chat.

[Cikomyr]

Well, sorry Avilan. I'm going to have to shuffle your theory back to the "unproven" file :smalltongue:

[Anderlith]

Dresden is an unreliable narrator, & those are just theories & conjecture. & like I said before. The Gates are the edge of our reality, why would Dresden call it anything else? It can still be that their is another reality out there

[Lamech]

I studied her face for a moment. “If I read the symbols correctly, it’s a third wall. Built to withhold creatures of flesh and spirit. Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in between.”
She frowned. “What kind of creatures are like that?”
I shrugged. “None,” I said, and officially, it was true. The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves. Usually, a spirit-circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever. But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.
You'll also note that the book 2 cosmology has wildly diverged from later books cosmology. For example, archangels are NOT beings of spirit+flesh. In fact, they are being of neither spirit nor flesh. If its in book 1-3, there is a good chance that it has been retconned, is a reflection of Harry's youthful ignorance and untrue.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Even the fourth book example is probably a bit dodgy on Heaven/Hell given that we don't know if the Fallen/Nickelheads were conceived the mythos could still be influx.

[Mauve Shirt]

MAY 27TH (www.jim-butcher.com)

So long from now! =(

[Somebloke]

Ohmygodohmygodohmygod...

(Checks phone clock)

(Checks it again 30 seconds later)

Awesome work Mauve Shirt!

[tomandtish]

So in my birthday month I get a new Dresden Files novel AND a Godzilla move?!?

I ... I... sniff...

This is the best Christmas news ever!