afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread IV

[afroakuma]

The ever-popular thread continues in its fourth incarnation. Previous versions can of course be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265884), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272393) and most recently here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299450).

For the newcomers (and some regulars who should know by now):

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires actual digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

[Urpriest]

Do the Rilmani have any cities of their own, or other power centers?

[Lord_Gareth]

What are Rilmani battle tactics like?

[Norin]

In danger of repeating myself and even being annoying:

Any info on or about any inter planar crime or criminal organizations? (canon or your brew)

Something like a plane traveling Thieves Guild.

Yes, i have asked before, but you postponed the answer - so i just wanted to try my luck again.

Also, in to subscribe! :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

So, I'm wondering. I don't know Mystara myself, but what you said about it's cosmologies in the other threads sounds very different from the Wheel, much more so than Eberron or Dragonlance. How do you even begin to bring them together?

[enderlord99]

Could Atropus be the former overpower of Ouiyan?

[Vedhin]

So, I'm wondering. I don't know Mystara myself,

Can't answer the question, but I can provide the Mystara website (http://pandius.com/) if you want to learn about things like the cosmology.

[Brookshw]

What are Rilmani battle tactics like?

they punch themselves for everytime they punch the enemy obviously, balance! :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

I figured someone might have anti-magic shackles? And someone with...exotic tastes might want Good Outsider slaves.

Said shackles would have to be factored in as an expense against the sale price of the slave. Dealing in good outsiders is a good way to invite reprisals from the Upper Planes, so it's kind of a niche industry and the existing suppliers might not be happy to have an upstart in their ranks.


How might a Half-Cerebrilith or Half-Shadow Eft differ from 'standard' half-fiends, mechanically and/or in terms of appearance? What about unholy scions of either lineage? Could there be any distinction carried so far as tieflings?

I'll get back to you.


This is intriguing to me. Is it just happenstance that the base is in the Gates of the Moon?

The realm is a favorite of the lillendi, the guardians of the Staircase, and it's on Ysgard, so it makes sense for them. The connection only exists on the full moon.


I presume that Selune wasn't the one who created it

Definitely not.


so did she just decide to make her divine realm at the base of it?

More likely.


Or did it just "appear" one day because her portfolio was associated with it or something similar?

Also possible.


And if the Staircase has a confirmed base, does it also have a confirmed apex?

It does not.


Do the Rilmani have any cities of their own, or other power centers?

Very few settlements exist; the only real "city" is the rilmani "capital," Sum of All, whose population at last count numbered a whopping 10,000.

[Xuldarinar]

I'll get back to you.


I'll be patient then. Thank you for at least acknowledging.

[Jurai]

Regarding the Rilmani, if there are so few, then how come the other planar beings are so numerous?

[Eldan]

In Planescape at least, all the planar city other than Sigil had pretty small stated populations.

[Werephilosopher]

Dealing in good outsiders is a good way to invite reprisals from the Upper Planes, so it's kind of a niche industry and the existing suppliers might not be happy to have an upstart in their ranks.

Would such suppliers typically be fiends? Where are good outsider slave markets usually held?

[enderlord99]

Please give examples of how Eladrin and Tanar'ri each talk.

[Xervous]

Yes, finally caught up on 35 pages!

With all the mentions of gods and the acquisition and loss of domains, I've been pondering the following.

If an entity was on the road to godhood because (s)he had amassed such a devout and religious following, could that entity resist becoming a power? If so, I expect it would be ridiculously difficult as it's one's will against the multiverse.

[Coidzor]

Can the Mists of Ravenloft touch upon Athas or Eberron?

Are there any other decent examples of cosmologically isolated or partially closed off spheres/cosmologies/settings other than Eberron and Athas? If not, are there footnote or one-two sentence examples?

[Rob Roy]

Can the Mists of Ravenloft touch upon Athas?

The Realm of Kalidnay was pulled from Athas by the Mists after the local Sorcerer King did something particularly reprehensible.

[afroakuma]

How might a Half-Cerebrilith or Half-Shadow Eft differ from 'standard' half-fiends, mechanically and/or in terms of appearance? What about unholy scions of either lineage? Could there be any distinction carried so far as tieflings?

Shadow efts are not fiends. The half-fiend template is inappropriate for creatures descending from them, assuming any exist. Such creatures would instead use the darkToM or shadowLoM templates. Their descendants in turn would not be tieflings per se, but some form of shadow planetouched.

As for half-cerebriliths:

Half-Cerebrilith
Tremendously rare even among the already small number of half-fiends, half-cerebriliths are alienated moreso than most others of their kind due to the psionic turbulence they generate even while disguised. Monstrous in countenance, half-cerebriliths are massive, bony creatures with visibly protruding overgrown skeletons. Most are completely hairless (more reptilian ones lack scales) and have great difficulty turning their heads due to the deformed and bulky fusion of spine and skull that defines the half-cerebrilith's look. Some may hunch over due to this cranial fusion, while others have a normally-angled head that is merely locked in place by the ridged bulb that extends down the back. In any event, the half-cerebrilith always has a large, distended lower jaw.

Half-cerebriliths tend to have violent personality shifts, going from contemplative and reserved to vicious and aggressive seemingly at random. They are characterized by a dreadful cunning.

Creating A Half-Cerebrilith
"Half-cerebrilith" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A half-cerebrilith uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to outsider and it gains the psionic subtype. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Creatures of Small or lower size grow one size category larger, with all the benefits and penalties so associated. Half-cerebriliths are normally native outsiders.

Speed
Same as base creature.

Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +3 (this stacks with any natural armor bonus the base creature has).

Attack
A half-cerebrilith has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the bite is the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-fiend retains this ability. A half-fiend fighting without weapons uses a bite when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack
A half-cerebrilith fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack.

Damage
Half-cerebriliths have bite and claw attacks. If the base creature does not have these attack forms, use the damage values in the table. Otherwise, use the values in the table or the base creature’s damage values, whichever are greater.

{table=head]Size|Bite Damage|Claw Damage
Fine|1|—
Diminutive|1d2|1
Tiny|1d3|1d2
Small|1d4|1d3
Medium|1d6|1d4
Large|1d8|1d6
Huge|2d6|1d8
Gargantuan|3d6|2d6
Colossal|4d6|3d6[/table]

Special Attacks
A half-cerebrilith retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attack.

Smite Good (Su)
Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against a good foe.

Psi-Like and Spell-Like Abilities
A half-cerebrilith with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has psi-like and spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level or manifester level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.

{table=head]HD|Abilities
1-2|Brain lock, ego whip, id insinuation
3-4|Desecrate
5-6|Unholy blight
7-8|Mind trap 3/day
9-10|Mind probe
11-12|Blasphemy
13-14|Unholy aura 3/day, unhallow
15-16|Psionic dominate 2/day
17-18|Summon monster IX (fiends only)
19-20|Destruction[/table]

Special Qualities
A half-cerebrilith has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Immunity to poison.
• Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
• Damage reduction: 5/good (if HD 11 or less) or 10/good (if HD 12 or more).
• A half-fiend’s natural weapons are treated as good weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
• Power resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.

Skills
A half-cerebrilith gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-cerebrilith gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills as well as Knowledge (psionics) and Psicraft, and other skills as cross-class.

Challenge Rating
HD 4 or less, as base creature +1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature +2; HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.

Alignment
Always chaotic evil.

Level Adjustment
+4.

A tiefling descended from a cerebrilith would likely exhibit traces of that ancestry and have a predilection toward psionics.

Unholy scions don't tend to exhibit visual cues to their nature, but various psionic manifestations would likely appear and it would almost certainly exhibit certain psi-like abilities in place of some of the usual spell-like abilities.


What are Rilmani battle tactics like?

They vary by caste. Ferrumachs are very straightforward in their soldiery, whereas cuprilachs favor assassination tactics.


So, I'm wondering. I don't know Mystara myself, but what you said about it's cosmologies in the other threads sounds very different from the Wheel, much more so than Eberron or Dragonlance. How do you even begin to bring them together?

Well, for starters, I use what WotC gave me. We know that some creatures from the Immortals Rules exist in the context of the Great Wheel cosmology; similarly, we know that many Mystaran Immortals share identities with the gods of the Great Wheel. I just split the difference and say that the unusual features of the Mystaran cosmology just plain aren't; that the various immortals are gods and their Outer Planes are what we would call divine realms. Mainly it's a question of what I'm willing to sidestep to get to where I need to be.

And then of course there's the alternate method I sometimes prefer, wherein BECMI and Mystara are the old multiverse and the Great Wheel is the new one. Not entirely unreasonable.


Could Atropus be the former overpower of Ouiyan?

No.


Regarding the Rilmani, if there are so few, then how come the other planar beings are so numerous?

1) There are so few in that city. Rilmani don't build large settlements or congregate frequently. They are the most dispersed exemplar race.

2) Rilmani are the least numerous of all the exemplar races anyway.


Would such suppliers typically be fiends? Where are good outsider slave markets usually held?

They would be fiends or other very powerful beings of evil, and there would be little "usual" or "typical" about the matter. I would look to the major Lower Planar marketplaces for contacts who could link you to that particular trade, but bear in mind that such slaves are typically purchased for torture, not for actual application, and that the fury of the Upper Planes makes it a terrible business to be dabbling in in any fashion.


Please give examples of how Eladrin and Tanar'ri each talk.

Explain.


With all the mentions of gods and the acquisition and loss of domains, I've been pondering the following.

If an entity was on the road to godhood because (s)he had amassed such a devout and religious following, could that entity resist becoming a power? If so, I expect it would be ridiculously difficult as it's one's will against the multiverse.

It's not impossible to hold off for a time, but only if you're alive. If you're dead, it's happening; that faith is gonna stick to you like glue. A living being could conceivably divert it away or remain grounded through contact with the Prime, or even channel it in turn to another being of power (an existing deity, perhaps), but eventually those methods will fail.


Can the Mists of Ravenloft touch upon Athas or Eberron?

Yes. They have hit Athas already. I suspect Merrix d'Cannith may be due for a foggy evening in his future...


Are there any other decent examples of cosmologically isolated or partially closed off spheres/cosmologies/settings other than Eberron and Athas? If not, are there footnote or one-two sentence examples?

Krynn has always been at least partially closed. Cerilia is remote and was hedged off for a time, but is currently accessible (though distant). Mystara's cosmology is a bit tricky to navigate; it would definitely land in the "isolated" side of things.

[Lord_Gareth]

What might a theoretical half-Rilmani (in the vein of half-celestial etc) be like? What about Planetouched descended from such a creature? How would Rilmani society view and treat its part-breeds? Can non-Rilmani participate in Rilmani culture?

[enderlord99]

Explain.


Would Eladrin say things like "Happy rainbow peppermint kitten chocolate flower bunnies! YAY!!!"
Would Tanar'ri say things like "DOOM AND GLOOM! Parasite vomit murder torture! DIE, FLEAS!!!

I'm making fun of the Slaad thing, for those of you who you couldn't tell.

[Xuldarinar]

Shadow efts are not fiends. The half-fiend template is inappropriate for creatures descending from them, assuming any exist. Such creatures would instead use the darkToM or shadowLoM templates. Their descendants in turn would not be tieflings per se, but some form of shadow planetouched.

As for half-cerebriliths:

Half-Cerebrilith
Tremendously rare even among the already small number of half-fiends, half-cerebriliths are alienated moreso than most others of their kind due to the psionic turbulence they generate even while disguised. Monstrous in countenance, half-cerebriliths are massive, bony creatures with visibly protruding overgrown skeletons. Most are completely hairless (more reptilian ones lack scales) and have great difficulty turning their heads due to the deformed and bulky fusion of spine and skull that defines the half-cerebrilith's look. Some may hunch over due to this cranial fusion, while others have a normally-angled head that is merely locked in place by the ridged bulb that extends down the back. In any event, the half-cerebrilith always has a large, distended lower jaw.

Half-cerebriliths tend to have violent personality shifts, going from contemplative and reserved to vicious and aggressive seemingly at random. They are characterized by a dreadful cunning.

Creating A Half-Cerebrilith
"Half-cerebrilith" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A half-cerebrilith uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to outsider and it gains the psionic subtype. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Creatures of Small or lower size grow one size category larger, with all the benefits and penalties so associated. Half-cerebriliths are normally native outsiders.

Speed
Same as base creature.

Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +3 (this stacks with any natural armor bonus the base creature has).

Attack
A half-cerebrilith has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the bite is the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-fiend retains this ability. A half-fiend fighting without weapons uses a bite when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack
A half-cerebrilith fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack.

Damage
Half-cerebriliths have bite and claw attacks. If the base creature does not have these attack forms, use the damage values in the table. Otherwise, use the values in the table or the base creature’s damage values, whichever are greater.

{table=head]Size|Bite Damage|Claw Damage
Fine|1|—
Diminutive|1d2|1
Tiny|1d3|1d2
Small|1d4|1d3
Medium|1d6|1d4
Large|1d8|1d6
Huge|2d6|1d8
Gargantuan|3d6|2d6
Colossal|4d6|3d6[/table]

Special Attacks
A half-cerebrilith retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attack.

Smite Good (Su)
Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against a good foe.

Psi-Like and Spell-Like Abilities
A half-cerebrilith with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has psi-like and spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level or manifester level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.

{table=head]HD|Abilities
1-2|Brain lock, ego whip, id insinuation
3-4|Desecrate
5-6|Unholy blight
7-8|Mind trap 3/day
9-10|Mind probe
11-12|Blasphemy
13-14|Unholy aura 3/day, unhallow
15-16|Psionic dominate 2/day
17-18|Summon monster IX (fiends only)
19-20|Destruction[/table]

Special Qualities
A half-cerebrilith has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Immunity to poison.
• Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
• Damage reduction: 5/good (if HD 11 or less) or 10/good (if HD 12 or more).
• A half-fiend’s natural weapons are treated as good weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
• Power resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.

Skills
A half-cerebrilith gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-cerebrilith gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills as well as Knowledge (psionics) and Psicraft, and other skills as cross-class.

Challenge Rating
HD 4 or less, as base creature +1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature +2; HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.

Alignment
Always chaotic evil.

Level Adjustment
+4.

A tiefling descended from a cerebrilith would likely exhibit traces of that ancestry and have a predilection toward psionics.

Unholy scions don't tend to exhibit visual cues to their nature, but various psionic manifestations would likely appear and it would almost certainly exhibit certain psi-like abilities in place of some of the usual spell-like abilities.

Thank you. It is certainly more of an in-depth response in some regards than I anticipated and your feed back is very helpful, though it does lead up to a follow up question.

Given that Shadow Eft are Outsider (evil, extraplanar, psionic), and


Monster Manual, Page 308
Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. -Snip-

I am left wondering how they are not fiends.

[Vedhin]

Would Eladrin say things like "Happy rainbow peppermint kitten chocolate flower bunnies! YAY!!!"
Would Tanar'ri say things like "DOOM AND GLOOM! Parasite vomit murder torture! DIE, FLEAS!!!


My $.02

$.01. Not likely for Eladrin, they can't communicate messages of goodness that way. Speaking of said topics frequently however, that is likely a thing.

$.01 Only if it's intimidating. Definitely "DIE, FLEAS!!!" *assorted fleas die of terror*

[afroakuma]

Thank you. It is certainly more of an in-depth response in some regards than I anticipated and your feed back is very helpful, though it does lead up to a follow up question.

Given that Shadow Eft are Outsider (evil, extraplanar, psionic), and

I am left wondering how they are not fiends.

Fiends in the half-fiend sense come from the Lower Planes. A shadow eft shouldn't technically have that subtype, since it's from the Plane of Shadow, but merely having it doesn't make it an actual fiend; it's just referred to by that catchall term since most people don't make distinctions when staring down the barrel of eight feet of pure otherworldly terror.

[Larkas]

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

Now THAT is an interesting chart. Do you have a link I could to know more about all those spheres?

[afroakuma]

Now THAT is an interesting chart. Do you have a link I could to know more about all those spheres?

All? Oh good gravy no. I'll see if I can dig up some of the reference material he used.

[Xuldarinar]

Fiends in the half-fiend sense come from the Lower Planes. A shadow eft shouldn't technically have that subtype, since it's from the Plane of Shadow, but merely having it doesn't make it an actual fiend; it's just referred to by that catchall term since most people don't make distinctions when staring down the barrel of eight feet of pure otherworldly terror.

Very well, then I concede. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Larkas]

All? Oh good gravy no. I'll see if I can dig up some of the reference material he used.

Fair enough! Thanks in advance :smallredface:

[Rhatahema]

First, thanks for asking my previous question in the last thread! Here's a bit of a follow up. Forgive the disjointedness.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around negative energy. On one hand, it's described as a purely destructive force antithetical to life. On the other hand, it's used to animate and cure undead. Is the nature of undeath ever elaborated on in Planescape? How can a non-energy of annihilation be used to animate and revitalize?

These questions relate a bit to my previous question, on a Doomguard's views on healing. For instance, they revere the destructive qualities of the negative energy plane, but doesn't undeath defy entropy? Would a doomguard ever willingly become an undead, and accept negative energy "healing"?

[Alleran]

Cerilia is remote and was hedged off for a time, but is currently accessible (though distant).
Could you expand on what you mean by "distant" here, and why it was hedged off? I'm aware that it has the Shadow Realm - something like a combination of several different planes all jammed together that planar travelers don't know how to navigate properly? Is that the cause of the distance/hedged nature?

[afroakuma]

First, thanks for asking my previous question in the last thread! Here's a bit of a follow up. Forgive the disjointedness.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around negative energy. On one hand, it's described as a purely destructive force antithetical to life. On the other hand, it's used to animate and cure undead. Is the nature of undeath ever elaborated on in Planescape? How can a non-energy of annihilation be used to animate and revitalize?

Negative energy is energy. It animates undead by substituting for the vital force that should have been present, like an afterimage of life. Negative energy doesn't actually repair an undead; bones won't knit, flesh won't mend, none of that nonsense; it merely fills in the holes with more artificial motility. Over time, corporeal undead of most any stripe degrade pretty severely unless preserved.


These questions relate a bit to my previous question, on a Doomguard's views on healing. For instance, they revere the destructive qualities of the negative energy plane, but doesn't undeath defy entropy?

Not at all. Undead constitute a direct incarnation of unchecked entropy in the world. A creature that hungers to devour life but yields nothing from the act of consumption produces a net gain in entropy with every attack. The Doomguard don't exactly approve of the creation of undead, especially sentient undead, but they don't in the main see a downside to more undeath plaguing the world.


Would a doomguard ever willingly become an undead

Possibly. Not a common thing, though.


and accept negative energy "healing"?

Still rather unlikely.


Could you expand on what you mean by "distant" here, and why it was hedged off?

If you look at the star chart, you'll see that Bloodspace is among the Lost Spheres, out near the Crimson Sphere (Athas). That puts it at about 40d10+148 days' travel from Realmspace, going by an admittedly rough estimate. So it's physically "distant."

The sphere was temporarily hedged off after the old gods of Aebrynis were destroyed in the battle of Mount Deismaar. Once the new gods settled in and established their roles on the planes anew, protections were dropped.

[Arcanist]

Why is there literally no information on Baalphegor? She is only mentioned in passing in Fiendish Codex 2, mentioned numerous times in 2nd edition. Hell, (haha) she is only mentioned (If memory serves) 3 times in any WoTC official source. Why is this?

Where are you Baalphegor? Are you still in Hell? What are you doing? :smallfrown:

[Yora]

Quoting here:

Baalphegor, as Belphegor, was mentioned in passing in Dragon #28 as one of the archdevils who sided with Baalzebul in his coup against the previous master of Hell. As Baalphegor, she appeared in the roster of diabolic nobles in the 1st edition Monster Manual II. She was given a detailed treatment in Dragon #76. She appeared as the ultimate villain of "Caermor" in Dungeon #2, which was reprinted in the Dungeons of Despair anthology (1999).

[afroakuma]

Why is there literally no information on Baalphegor?

She likes it that way. :smallcool:


She is only mentioned in passing in Fiendish Codex 2, mentioned numerous times in 2nd edition. Hell, (haha) she is only mentioned (If memory serves) 3 times in any WoTC official source. Why is this?

None of the consorts get a lot of mention, really, but as noted above, Baalphegor's been in and out in earlier publications. 3rd Edition tended to focus on the big names of the Lower Planes, while 2E had to disavow them because of the whole moral panic thing.


Where are you Baalphegor? Are you still in Hell? What are you doing? :smallfrown:

She's not! She recently disappeared and nobody has any clue where she is.

[Vedhin]

Why is there literally no information on Baalphegor? She is only mentioned in passing in Fiendish Codex 2, mentioned numerous times in 2nd edition. Hell, (haha) she is only mentioned (If memory serves) 3 times in any WoTC official source. Why is this?

Where are you Baalphegor? Are you still in Hell? What are you doing? :smallfrown:

I knew saving the links to just about every post on this subject from the previous three threads would come in handy! :smallbiggrin:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14694782&postcount=1314
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14718575&postcount=1368
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14722628&postcount=1398
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15974024&postcount=249
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15999406&postcount=280
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15999608&postcount=285
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16000094&postcount=287
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16002351&postcount=292
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16003640&postcount=298
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16005313&postcount=307
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16006756&postcount=316
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16043119&postcount=397
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16044644&postcount=409
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16115812&postcount=650
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16138754&postcount=689
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16138989&postcount=690
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16166421&postcount=794
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16175990&postcount=826
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16177801&postcount=832
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16178792&postcount=840
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16226651&postcount=999
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16249193&postcount=1049
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16421027&postcount=1315
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16427622&postcount=1317

Anyway, one reason is that Asmodeus has a tendency to violently suppress information that makes him seem weak, unless it is misinformation (looking at you Zargon). Thus, information about Baalphegor is rare. However, as I am unsuppressable, I shall share my knowledge.

Basics:
1: Asmodeus is afraid of/respects Baalphegor. One of the reasons Mephistophles got off easy during the Reckoning is that Baalphegor was his consort.
2: Baalphegor is fairly passive and behind-the-scenes. She may be indirectly or directly responsible for the invention of hellfire (her only Concern is invention, IIRC).
3: Baalphegor is never mentioned to be a Baatezu.
4: Baalphegor recently went poof.

Conclusions:
A: From 1 and 3: Baalphegor is likely an ancient baatorian. Despite was Asmodeus likes to claim, the Baatezu are not natives, and didn't beat the ancient baatorians. The ancient baatorians are now some sort of menacing shadowy mental presence things, and live in Maggoth Thyg in Malboge. said area may have been covered by the Hag Countess's untimely doom.
B: Building on the previous: Ancient baatorian young actually roam the Nine Hells. They are the nupperibo. The fear of one of them growing into an adult is why they are used as cannon fodder in the Blood war, and why any that show any sort of sight, an IQ higher than a bag of rocks, or similar abilities are slain/turned into lemures.
C: From A, 1, and 2: Baalphegor is following some sort of long term plan. Given what we know/conjecture, she doesn't have to take orders from Asmodeus if she didn't want to in the first place. Asmodeus keeps her around because she is a powerful minion.
From C and 4: Baalphegor either vanished for her own reasons, or was forcibly removed. If she vanished for her own reasons, Asmodeus should start saying his prayers in hopes that whatever she's up to won't be horrible for him. If she was forcibly removed, he should also start saying his prayers, because something removed a being arguably more powerful than him without a trace.



Anyway, question for afro: What would happen if somebody, say the 'loths, managed to abscond with a nupperibo and it matured into an ancient baatorian?

[RúsëaMenci]

I think (and would like confirmation/correction on) that Asmodeus is personally stronger than Baalphegor, and as the Lord Below, can muster far, far more powerful forces than she can marshal. Which is why the Baatorians have been driven to the shadows, nupperibos are slain as a matter of course, and the Baatezu rule. Asmodeus doesn't really fear she is more powerful than he: he fears that she is closer than she has any right to be, and worse that she might be smarter than he is. At the very least, she seems to know something he doesn't, and that's bad. Because Baator has no real allegiance to he and his, and she might be able to mount a legitimate counter-claim to the plane. And if that happens, he is in very great trouble indeed, even if he destroys her, puts down a Baatorian uprising, and thwarts Mephistopheles's attempt to take advantage.

[afroakuma]

Baapheglory

Dear cripes she comes up with some frequency. :smalleek:


Anyway, question for afro: What would happen if somebody, say the 'loths, managed to abscond with a nupperibo and it matured into an ancient baatorian?

See, funnily enough, they actually did. Fortunately, some adventurers stumbled across it as it was nearing full maturation, and as adventurers are wont to do, they murdered it and looked for stuff.


I think (and would like confirmation/correction on) that Asmodeus is personally stronger than Baalphegor, and as the Lord Below, can muster far, far more powerful forces than she can marshal.

Can't be proven.


Which is why the Baatorians have been driven to the shadows

Well that part is definitely wrong. Baatorians basically leveled up past the need for physical forms, for the most part.


nupperibos are slain as a matter of course

If they weren't something to fear, they'd be kept around as object demonstrations of the supremacy of the baatezu.


Asmodeus doesn't really fear she is more powerful than he: he fears that she is closer than she has any right to be, and worse that she might be smarter than he is.

Oh she's definitely smarter than him.

[Vedhin]

See, funnily enough, they actually did. Fortunately, some adventurers stumbled across it as it was nearing full maturation, and as adventurers are wont to do, they murdered it and looked for stuff.

And this sort of thing would be why the powers that be tolerate the roving bands of murderhobos.


But to the best of my knowledge, there is not any being provably stronger than Baalphegor that doesn't fall into one of the two categories below:

1: Imprisioned, like Tharizdun.
2: Limited sphere of interest/area of influence, like The Lady of Pain.

Basically, Baalphegor worries Asmodeus, and most other single beings capable of doing so aren't able/willing to move against him. They also tend not to disappear without a trace from the place he put them so he could keep an eye on them.

[afroakuma]

Oh I'm sure she's not ultimately so strong that she needs to be discussed in the same terms as those two. Just that Asmodeus doesn't want to throw down with the witch.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Oh sure. Back in the day I was working on lots of that sort of thing. Still have the notes, too, and one day when I'm not doing NaNoWriMo and juggling a hundred other projects I'll probably pick it up again. I have rough outlines or concept work done for an outsider race for each intermediary plane, for example (I'd radically revamp the lamenti if I were ever to go back to it, the crunch is iffy) and while they're not exemplars, they are lesser planar tribes in their own right and the true natives of each plane.

Afro doing NaNoWriMo? I don't suppose you'd be averse to showing it to other people...? :smallbiggrin:. I'm curious about the other projects to but it'd probably be tiresome to list so many.

Why do demon princes like Juiblex and Turglas bother to wrestle with the Abyss for control over a layer? They don't care about stuff like status or territory right?

Why don't Demon Lords (or other Unique exemplars not tied to the Outer Planes) go to the Prime? I get that some are under the command of beings that make them stay on the Abyss (or wherever) but what about those who just wander around their home planes not accomplishing anything? Why don't they go to the Prime and start forming cults around themselves and such? They're certainly powerful enough to find a way.

Are there churches and priesthoods for gods and demon princes and such on the Outer/Inner Planes? Can non-mortal beings join and hold positions in the Church (like, can the High Priest of God X be an exemplar?)?

Does mortal belief give more faith energy (or whatever the term is) for a god to subsist on than immortal belief?

How do gods like Urdlen and the Queen of Air and Darkness maintain their level of power (or even survive) when they have such few worshippers? Urdlen for example, is a force of blind destruction that hates everything. Accordingly the only worshippers he has are lone insane gnomes. For some reason though, he is still an Intermediate deity.

[afroakuma]

Afro doing NaNoWriMo? I don't suppose you'd be averse to showing it to other people...?

Eventually, I'm sure.


Why do demon princes like Juiblex and Turglas bother to wrestle with the Abyss for control over a layer?

As opposed to just being exiles?


Why don't Demon Lords (or other Unique exemplars not tied to the Outer Planes) go to the Prime?

They usually can't. All that ritual babbling sacrifice stars are aligned nonsense is required to get them from Point A to Point B. They're incapable of easy transit to the Prime.


They're certainly powerful enough to find a way.

Yes, and those ways are what we refer to as "Adventure Paths." :smallcool:


Are there churches and priesthoods for gods and demon princes and such on the Outer/Inner Planes?

Outer Planes? Rare to not at all. Usually they're only found in a being's own realm, and that mostly because, well, you know. Inner Planes, yes, there are some.


Can non-mortal beings join and hold positions in the Church (like, can the High Priest of God X be an exemplar?)?

Rare but not impossible. Usually doesn't work since those exemplars have better things to be doing.


Does mortal belief give more faith energy (or whatever the term is) for a god to subsist on than immortal belief?

I assume we're talking about regular folk vs. Outer Planar outsiders, in which case yes.


How do gods like Urdlen and the Queen of Air and Darkness maintain their level of power (or even survive) when they have such few worshippers?

Do you have proof that they have few worshipers, or just conjecture?


Urdlen for example, is a force of blind destruction that hates everything.

As am I, except for the blind part.


Accordingly the only worshippers he has are lone insane gnomes. For some reason though, he is still an Intermediate deity.

Do you have the demographics on how many non-insane gnomes are out there? :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Urdlen for example, is a force of blind destruction that hates everything.

As am I, except for the blind part.

Hahahahahahaha... Wait... What? :smallconfused:

[RúsëaMenci]

Do you have the demographics on how many non-insane gnomes are out there? :smalltongue:
Bwahahaha.

[afroakuma]

Hahahahahahaha... Wait... What? :smallconfused:

Did you not see the picture of me?


http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/362/cache/lightning-volcano-puyehue-volcanic-eruption-chile-long-exposure_36299_600x450.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ZqaEkpyu8)

[Arcanist]

Did you not see the picture of me?

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/362/cache/lightning-volcano-puyehue-volcanic-eruption-chile-long-exposure_36299_600x450.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ZqaEkpyu8)

I like to block out memories that might result in my brain exploding or accidentally result in me making a deal with some sort of Far realm entity... :smallconfused:

[Xuldarinar]

What planes, if any, lack any kind of planetouched associated with them? If there are any, is there any reason for this?

[Vedhin]

Do you have the demographics on how many non-insane gnomes are out there? :smalltongue:

According to Dragonlance, only Mad Gnomes are sane. Gnomes are so crazy they think being barmy is sane.

[afroakuma]

What planes, if any, lack any kind of planetouched associated with them?

Planetouched aren't really associated directly with planes, most of the time, so much as creatures of the plane. Assuming that you're tying tieflings to all of the Lower Planes and etc. etc., the planes without any such associations are the Outlands and the Astral Plane. And all the spare planes from the MotP, and the Ordial Plane, and etc.

Can't really think of quasi-elemental genasi, either.


If there are any, is there any reason for this?

Quasi-elementals probably don't have much occasion to pass on their traits o outsiders; the Outlands is neutral and has nothing to pass on; the Astral Plane is a realm of thought and doesn't really have natives who could meaningfully interact with outsiders in that way.

[Xuldarinar]

Planetouched aren't really associated directly with planes, most of the time, so much as creatures of the plane. Assuming that you're tying tieflings to all of the Lower Planes and etc. etc., the planes without any such associations are the Outlands and the Astral Plane. And all the spare planes from the MotP, and the Ordial Plane, and etc.

Can't really think of quasi-elemental genasi, either.



Quasi-elementals probably don't have much occasion to pass on their traits o outsiders; the Outlands is neutral and has nothing to pass on; the Astral Plane is a realm of thought and doesn't really have natives who could meaningfully interact with outsiders in that way.

Alright. What of the far realm, and the plane of dreams, not to mention demi-planes and oddities such as the shattered night? I suppose I could guess, but you are the expert here.

[afroakuma]

Alright. What of the far realm, and the plane of dreams, not to mention demi-planes and oddities such as the shattered night? I suppose I could guess, but you are the expert here.

You really need to cast detect white text with more accuracy.


And all the spare planes from the MotP, and the Ordial Plane, and etc.

[Xuldarinar]

You really need to cast detect white text with more accuracy.

Ah. I had missed that. My apologies.




Edit:


Is it possible to kill Neth and/or turn Neth undead/deathless?

[afroakuma]

Is it possible to kill Neth and/or turn Neth undead/deathless?

What exactly Neth is is uncertain. It may be impossible from a theoretical standpoint. From a practical standpoint, it still probably wouldn't work.

[Yora]

Is New Vaasa in Raveloft related to Vaasa from Forgotten Realms?

[Brookshw]

Is New Vaasa in Raveloft related to Vaasa from Forgotten Realms?

Meet the New Vaasa, Same as the old Vaasa

No clue but I have a song stuck in my head thanks to you!

[afroakuma]

Is New Vaasa in Raveloft related to Vaasa from Forgotten Realms?

Yes. The Darklord of Nova Vaasa was originally from Vaasa. It's not a very strong connection, but it does exist.

[BlackDog918]

A few questions concerning Nerik's star chart:

1. Is Eberron on it?

2. How the hell am I supposed to read it?

3. How do I plot a course on it?

Thanks, boss.

[Lord_Gareth]

Have there been any cases of formerly living gods being deliberately raised as undead beings?

[Brookshw]

Have there been any cases of formerly living gods being deliberately raised as undead beings?

Tag on question, if so what would Anubis do about it. How does he even oversee them in the first place? He kinda seems to win the laziest god award.

[afroakuma]

A few questions concerning Nerik's star chart:

1. Is Eberron on it?

Yes. Shardspace (the Eberron sphere) is located on no known flow river; it is to the far galactic east outside of the Arcane Outer Flow.


2. How the hell am I supposed to read it?

First off, some in-browser .pdf plugins don't interpret it properly. If you don't see circles all over it, download it and open it directly through a .pdf viewer.

There's a legend on the bottom of the chart. The lines between spheres are flow routes/flow rivers, with arrowheads marking the predominant or obligate travel direction. Little numbers alongside arrows indicate time in days for travel between spheres. Going off the rivers, you need to use the millimeter scale on the bottom left to determine travel time. Other icons indicate dangerous regions of space, territories controlled by certain powerful races, and other such information of interest. Read the legend and come back with questions if you have any.


3. How do I plot a course on it?

Find your starting sphere. Locate the destination sphere. If the two are both on flow rivers, find yourself a route from point A to point B and tally the travel time for each trip (It'll be a bit more from crossing through spheres, but you can worry about that later). Remember that a double arrowhead >> on a flow river means travel is only possible in that direction, so you'll need to plot a route that gets around those issues. A responsible captain would take steps to avoid notably dangerous or difficult spheres, as well as territories of space controlled by neogi, beholders and illithids.

If your destination (or your point of departure) is not on a flow river or flow route, then you need the millimeter scale. Chart a course along the flow rivers as close as possible, then determine the straightest (safe) shot from exit point to the target and measure that distance in millimeters. Travel is an additional 1d10 days per millimeter and exceptionally dangerous, so don't do that very often.


Have there been any cases of formerly living gods being deliberately raised as undead beings?

Can't think of any. A few demigods may have gone through something like it, though, since hunefers exist. Granted, a hunefer can form naturally, so it's no guarantee.


Tag on question, if so what would Anubis do about it.

Dispatch forces to destroy the thing/those trying to perform the theonecromancy, and alert the dead god's pantheon or other interested parties if those forces failed. Anubis would not depart his post to deal with that personally, since it would imperil the rest of his charges far more.


How does he even oversee them in the first place? He kinda seems to win the laziest god award.

Inscrutable is the word you're looking for. Yes, he let Tu'narath be constructed, but generally he chases off or destroys those who violate his charges in any way. He's definitely doing a job, and it's one nobody else wants, so...

[Brookshw]

Are there any Canon instances of him actually doing said job?

[BlackDog918]

Follow-up: I'm assuming that Toril is the sphere marked "Realm"?

Also, would an exceptionally fast ship make a difference in traveling the flows, or is there a "speed limit", so to speak?

[afroakuma]

Are there any Canon instances of him actually doing said job?

Of course. Most any adventure where you might trespass upon his territory includes a sidebar involving the Guardian of Dead Gods showing up to bother you.


Follow-up: I'm assuming that Toril is the sphere marked "Realm"?

Accurate. Many of them are easy to infer from the name of the most notable planet within, but some are less clear (Shardspace, the Crimson Sphere).


Also, would an exceptionally fast ship make a difference in traveling the flows, or is there a "speed limit", so to speak?

Oh it certainly could. Those are speeds expected of the cosmological normal travel time. Mind you, the difference wouldn't be noteworthy over a small route, unless you were traveling against a current.

[Alleran]

Is there technically any limit on how big a crystal sphere can get? As in, could some just hold a planet or two, some hold an entire solar system, and some hold much more?

[BlackDog918]

Okay, what is the Crimson Sphere?

[afroakuma]

Is there technically any limit on how big a crystal sphere can get? As in, could some just hold a planet or two, some hold an entire solar system, and some hold much more?

Oh, there are limits. A crystal sphere needs to be of a certain size to exist, though minimums and maximums aren't really firm. I would say that a sphere needs an absolute minimum of one primary and one other body; the busiest sphere in terms of interstellar bodies of which I know is Clusterspace, which has in excess of twenty. I should point out that while a high number of bodies typically correlates with a larger sphere, that's not always true. Krynnspace is very large in comparison to the number of bodies it contains. The biggest and smallest spheres have not been specified, so don't ask.


Okay, what is the Crimson Sphere?

Athas, the world of the Dark Sun setting.

[BlackDog918]

Aha. Now, I heard something about Athas being extraordinarily difficult to get to via Spelljammer. Is that true, and if so, why?

[afroakuma]

Aha. Now, I heard something about Athas being extraordinarily difficult to get to via Spelljammer. Is that true, and if so, why?

It's extraordinarily difficult to get to by any method. Supposedly there is actually a flow river to it, it's just been left off of every chart because nobody wants to remember how to go there. The defiling magic in use on Athas, plus whatever was done in its past, has utterly tainted the sphere and its planar links. Traveling through the sphere wall is a bumpy ride, to say the least.

[BlackDog918]

I see. Is there a beginner's guide to Spelljamming somewhere so I don't pelt you with silly questions that can easily be looked up somewhere?

[afroakuma]

I see. Is there a beginner's guide to Spelljamming somewhere so I don't pelt you with silly questions that can easily be looked up somewhere?

Mm, not familiar with a useful one, sadly. Anyone else care to chime in?

[BlackDog918]

Okay, speculation question. After the end of 2nd edition, Spelljammer was no more. Can you think of an in-universe explanation for this, and if so, how would it have gone down? Like, what kind of shape would the galaxy be in and who would be the first to fall?

[afroakuma]

Okay, speculation question. After the end of 2nd edition, Spelljammer was no more.

Incorrect. While the setting, like many others, was not fully adapted for 3rd Edition, rules for it were eventually made available in highly condensed form in an issue of Dungeon/Polyhedron.

[BlackDog918]

Oh. Alright then. I would still like to hear what may have happened to end Spelljamming, though, if it's not too much to ask. It's rather important to a campaign I'm running.

Also, do you know offhand which issue of Dragon those rules appeared in?

[123456789blaaa]

As opposed to just being exiles?
<snip>


I suppose Juiblex would like somewhere to sit and hate everything without getting attacked every five seconds. Didn't Turglas basically go around the Abyss eating everything before he was banished to the Prime? Why does he need a layer to do that?


They usually can't. All that ritual babbling sacrifice stars are aligned nonsense is required to get them from Point A to Point B. They're incapable of easy transit to the Prime.
<snip>


Is there something about the Prime that prevents them from just using the methods adventurers use? Plane Shift for example.


Outer Planes? Rare to not at all. Usually they're only found in a being's own realm, and that mostly because, well, you know. Inner Planes, yes, there are some.

What about the Planar cities on the Outer Planes? Sigil and the like? I'd think that churches would be plentiful there due to the cosmopolitan-ness.

From the way you phrased it, it sounds like they're less rare on the Inner Planes than the Outer Planes. Why is this? Or am I misinterpreting your answer?


Do you have proof that they have few worshipers, or just conjecture?
<snip>


Conjecture but I think there's some solid reasoning behind it.

First, consider that Urdlen is a god of gnomes. He may have a few worshippers of other races but they're insignificant in number (IIRC his entries don't even mention them). Spriggans are the only exception. So we're practically restricted to two races.

Then consider that Urdlen is an Evil god of evil gnomes. Gnomes are a primarily Good race. The rest of the Gnomish pantheon is filled with Good gods. Evil gnomes are not common.

Then consider that Urlden hates you. He will not reward you. He wants you to die. He will not help you. Even if you try to direct his rage to your enemies, Urdlen is the god of Blind Destruction. And it's not like he's the only option for greedy, bloodthirsty, evil gnomes. There are literally hundreds of gods out there that could fill that niche.

Put this all together and I would think that the only gnomes that would worship him are ones that are insane. And yes, gnomes are crazy. But they're crazy in the manner of Zagyg. I'm talking about frothing at the mouth, bloodthirsty rage insanity. I can't imagine that being common among gnomes considering their natural inclinations. And the bloodthirsty-insane ones would still have to be inclined towards worshipping him in the first place.

So unless there are a lot of spriggans around, I don't see how he could be an Intermediate deity. A Demigod maybe but two steps above that? That's on the same level as frickin Lolth.


Mm, not familiar with a useful one, sadly. Anyone else care to chime in?

I don't know how good it is but this (http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/articles/SphereGuide/Guide%20to%20the%20Spheres.pdf) was the first link that popped up when I googled "beginner's guide to Spelljamming"

Are their lay worshipper exemplars? I know that plenty of exemplars serve and revere gods but do they worship them in the same way that Primes do?

What are the different factors that cause different beings to give more or less faith energy. Why does this happen (like, why do regular joe mortals give more than Outer Planar outsiders?)?

[TuggyNE]

Oh, there are limits. A crystal sphere needs to be of a certain size to exist, though minimums and maximums aren't really firm. I would say that a sphere needs an absolute minimum of one primary and one other body; the busiest sphere in terms of interstellar bodies of which I know is Clusterspace, which has in excess of twenty. I should point out that while a high number of bodies typically correlates with a larger sphere, that's not always true. Krynnspace is very large in comparison to the number of bodies it contains. The biggest and smallest spheres have not been specified, so don't ask.

OK um... what's Clusterspace? *derpface*

[Rob Roy]

OK um... what's Clusterspace? *derpface*

The setting of the Astromundi Cluster, which was Spelljammer's attempt to have its own setting and not depend on others. Sadly, it failed due to being terribly written/designed.

[Vedhin]

I see. Is there a beginner's guide to Spelljamming somewhere so I don't pelt you with silly questions that can easily be looked up somewhere?

In a few moments, this post will have a link to the 100% official Spelljammer fan site. WotC passed most of the abandoned settings off to fan sites when going to 3.X, and gave them official content-making powers and stuff.

Edit:

Spelljammer (http://spelljammer.org/)

And if you have interest in some different discontinued campaign settings, Other Worlds (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp)

[Khedrac]

Follow-up: I'm assuming that Toril is the sphere marked "Realm"?Toril is the best know and most inhabited planet of the sphere known as "Realmspace". The map seems to leave off the "-space" suffixes for ease of fitting everything on [so Oerth is the centre of Grey(space)].

[afroakuma]

Oh. Alright then. I would still like to hear what may have happened to end Spelljamming, though, if it's not too much to ask. It's rather important to a campaign I'm running.

Uh, well, again, nothing happened to end it. If you need some excuse for whatever bizarre reason, then I suppose the arcanes could have remotely shut down all spelljamming helms or something.


Also, do you know offhand which issue of Dragon those rules appeared in?

Dungeon 92.


I suppose Juiblex would like somewhere to sit and hate everything without getting attacked every five seconds. Didn't Turglas basically go around the Abyss eating everything before he was banished to the Prime? Why does he need a layer to do that?

Turaglas doesn't so much care about the layer; he just happens to be there a lot and he's the big cheese, so it recognizes him as its ruler. It's where he eats and spawns, basically.


Is there something about the Prime that prevents them from just using the methods adventurers use? Plane Shift for example.

Yes and no. The Prime is of course the most defended by deities (overpowers too), but in reality, it's more that they're not allowed out of the Outer Planes and Astral Plane except via special means. Remember that realities are very different among the various planes; the Outer Planes are fundamentally different from the Prime, as are their inhabitants.

Let me try this analogy. The Prime is like colors, the Outer Planes are like smells. A color can move anywhere in your field of vision, but it'll never transmit olfactory information. Now, you can draw wavy lines and flies near it (summoning, etc.) which transmits the gist of the idea, but still is only a contextual representation of information that cannot be conveyed in that domain. An actual portal, gate, calling effect or what have you is like synesthesia: suddenly, colors give off smells and smells make you see colors.

And no, don't ask me to extend this metaphor or construct another for anything else.


What about the Planar cities on the Outer Planes? Sigil and the like? I'd think that churches would be plentiful there due to the cosmopolitan-ness.

Nope. Most of them would have a local power or two to piss off, and if they're the ones being worshiped, why not just walk on over? It's not a common thing on the Outer Planes. Sigil, of course, has very few temples for a very good pointy reason.


From the way you phrased it, it sounds like they're less rare on the Inner Planes than the Outer Planes. Why is this?

Fewer gods on the Inner Planes and their natives aren't beings of belief. The whole context is different there.


Conjecture

Precisely.


Evil gnomes are not common.

Also conjecture.


Then consider that Urlden hates you. He will not reward you. He wants you to die. He will not help you.

You can invoke him to get a free blur spell.


So unless there are a lot of spriggans around, I don't see how he could be an Intermediate deity. A Demigod maybe but two steps above that? That's on the same level as frickin Lolth.

He is on the same level as Lolth. Enjoy the tasty tasty implications.


Are their lay worshipper exemplars? I know that plenty of exemplars serve and revere gods but do they worship them in the same way that Primes do?

Almost none.


What are the different factors that cause different beings to give more or less faith energy.

Yes of course there's a list, it was a big column of pluses and minuses in the handbook to being a god.

Oh wait no, I must be thinking of anything else.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Turaglas doesn't so much care about the layer; he just happens to be there a lot and he's the big cheese, so it recognizes him as its ruler. It's where he eats and spawns, basically.
<snip>

So he didn't have to do the whole wrestle-with-the-abyss thing to gain rulership over the layer?



Sigil, of course, has very few temples for a very good pointy reason.
<snip>


I thought worshippers were fine. It's only gods that are banned right?



Evil gnomes are not common. Also conjecture.



<snip>
Alignment: Usually neutral good
<snip>


Well, Svirfneblin are usually True Neutral but you get my point yes? Evil gnomes would be unusual which is synonymous with being uncommon.


You can invoke him to get a free blur spell.

Which is nice. Don't think it really damages my main point though.


He is on the same level as Lolth. Enjoy the tasty tasty implications.

You'll have to beat me over the head with these implications. I'm not awake enough to understand what you mean. Is it that there are as many Urdlen-worshipping gnomes and spriggans as there are drow?



Are their lay worshipper exemplars? I know that plenty of exemplars serve and revere gods but do they worship them in the same way that Primes do? Almost none.

Are they just not wired to be inclined towards that sort of thing as much as mortals are?



Yes of course there's a list, it was a big column of pluses and minuses in the handbook to being a god.

Oh wait no, I must be thinking of anything else.

It wouldn't be the weirdest thing to appear in a DnD sourcebook.

Really, my original question was going to be why a "regular joe mortal" gives more faith energy than Outer Planar outsiders. Then I started wondering about non-regular joe mortals. I figured I'd ask a new broad question to avoid a continual stream of similar questions.

[afroakuma]

So he didn't have to do the whole wrestle-with-the-abyss thing to gain rulership over the layer?

Considering he was born from the Abyss itself? Nah.


I thought worshippers were fine. It's only gods that are banned right?

Oh sure, but the general culture of the place assimilates that whole idea of gods being an outside thing.


You'll have to beat me over the head with these implications.

The implications would be that Urdlen is in the same weight class as the eternal enemy of elvenkind, the demon queen of spiders, the master architect of a thousand plans to gather power and bring ruin and misery upon the populated worlds. Think of all the stuff Lolth's ever gotten up to, all the advances she's made, the myriad forces at her disposal hiding in the shadows, the conquered worlds...

Urdlen is in the same league. Think about it.


Are they just not wired to be inclined towards that sort of thing as much as mortals are?

Again, it's that mortals have gods; outsiders only really have powers. God. Power. Almighty god of fire. Power from the Indian pantheon with influence over the sphere of fire. Context is everything.


Really, my original question was going to be why a "regular joe mortal" gives more faith energy than Outer Planar outsiders. Then I started wondering about non-regular joe mortals. I figured I'd ask a new broad question to avoid a continual stream of similar questions.

Mortals are the best source of faith because their souls are unaligned. Outsiders have souls that are already a thing. Same with undead. Elementals kind of don't have souls to begin with, per se. It's all a soul thing.

[Clistenes]

Yes and no. The Prime is of course the most defended by deities (overpowers too), but in reality, it's more that they're not allowed out of the Outer Planes and Astral Plane except via special means. Remember that realities are very different among the various planes; the Outer Planes are fundamentally different from the Prime, as are their inhabitants.

Let me try this analogy. The Prime is like colors, the Outer Planes are like smells. A color can move anywhere in your field of vision, but it'll never transmit olfactory information. Now, you can draw wavy lines and flies near it (summoning, etc.) which transmits the gist of the idea, but still is only a contextual representation of information that cannot be conveyed in that domain. An actual portal, gate, calling effect or what have you is like synesthesia: suddenly, colors give off smells and smells make you see colors.

And no, don't ask me to extend this metaphor or construct another for anything else.

I have read about the idea of archfiends not being able to freely Plane Shift to the Prime in novels and such, but neither the stats of the archfiends nor the fluff mentions that they are unable to travel the Prime using regular spells. As a matter of fact, Pazuzu is mentioned as visiting it whenever he wishes, and Graz'zt is mentioned as visiting beatiful witches and sorceress on his own power and volition,...etc.

The bit about archfiends not being able to visit the Prime through regular spells comes from Second Edition's fluff?, Planescape's fluff?, a deduction made from the information extracted from published adventures?

[afroakuma]

I have read about the idea of archfiends not being able to freely Plane Shift to the Prime in novels and such, but neither the stats of the archfiends nor the fluff mentions that they are unable to travel the Prime using regular spells.

Yeah, they never do. The stats do indicate, though, that virtually none of them can jump across planes. While all have greater teleport, very few have plane shift or gate as a spell-like ability. The fact that the spellcasters don't prepare plane shift in that fashion is equally telling. Exceptions like to point it out, though (and some of them are wrong).


As a matter of fact, Pazuzu is mentioned as visiting it whenever he wishes

Rarely does he go, but he's one of the few capable of doing so.


and Graz'zt is mentioned as visiting beatiful witches and sorceress on his own power and volition,...etc.

Likewise. This is what aspects are for. They're far easier to send off for tasks.

So yes, essentially, the stats are designed to keep fiends away from wielding the power to step across planes in any convenient fashion, and the fluff backs up that they can't use conventional means to just bop over to the Prime. You need portals or projections or rifts or the like.

[Hecuba]

Since you've talking Spelljammer:

I seem to remember Truespace being a stupid big sphere (in my mind- Planet:Normal Sphere::Normal Sphere:truespace), but the other person I game with that's played Spelljammer says that it's not that the Sphere is big, but that the artificial planet Penumbra is fills almost the entire sphere.

Do you have any insights?
I know I have Spelljammer books around somewhere, but I don't know what storage unit they're in (much less what box).

[RúsëaMenci]

Graz'zt is mentioned as visiting beatiful witches and sorceress on his own power and volition,...etc.
Likewise. This is what aspects are for. They're far easier to send off for tasks.
Hmm... new headcanon is forming around the idea that part of what makes Graz’zt the Demon Prince most associated with lust, hedonism, and so on, is the very fact that he would choose to utilize such a dangerous and risky practice as personally going to the Prime just for sex. That kind of reckless disregard for the risks associated with sating one’s appetites just screams demon to me.

Does any of this jive with the actual canon? Does the mere fact that Graz’zt behaves this way in itself cement his position? More generally, can demons empower themselves or establish themselves as being associated with something (in a meaningful way, i.e. in a way that empowers them or is recognized by other demons or the Abyss itself) by successfully acting with such blatant disregard for for the consequences? Or do demons just behave that way because it is their nature (I know they do act that way because it is their nature, I’m just wondering if demons are “rewarded” for it)?

[afroakuma]

Since you've talking Spelljammer:

I seem to remember Truespace being a stupid big sphere (in my mind- Planet:Normal Sphere::Normal Sphere:truespace), but the other person I game with that's played Spelljammer says that it's not that the Sphere is big, but that the artificial planet Penumbra is fills almost the entire sphere.

Do you have any insights?
I know I have Spelljammer books around somewhere, but I don't know what storage unit they're in (much less what box).

Bruce R. Cordell intended for Truespace to defy Spelljammer rules; his summary makes it clear that he wanted Truespace to be essentially an alternate Prime, away from the flow and the usual rules.

However, analysis of the various indicators regarding size suggests that the other person is correct: Penumbra is ridiculously vast, but Truespace is miniscule in terms of crystal sphere size.

If you check Nerik's star chart, you'll find confirmation of that.


Hmm... new headcanon is forming around the idea that part of what makes Graz’zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=0m47s) the Demon Prince most associated with lust, hedonism, and so on, is the very fact that he would choose to utilize such a dangerous and risky practice as personally going to the Prime just for sex. That kind of reckless disregard for the risks associated with sating one’s appetites just screams demon to me.

Does any of this jive with the actual canon? Does the mere fact that Graz’zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=0m47s) behaves this way in itself cement his position?

Well, he's not most associated with lust etc., he just happens to be very hedonistic. He'll never claim that title from Malcanthet.


More generally, can demons empower themselves or establish themselves as being associated with something (in a meaningful way, i.e. in a way that empowers them or is recognized by other demons or the Abyss itself) by successfully acting with such blatant disregard for for the consequences?

No.

[RúsëaMenci]

He'll never claim that title from Malcanthet.
Derp. What I mean, though, Graz’zt is all about satiating his lust. Succubi, on the other hand, seem associated with tempting others, with inciting lust, not necessarily being lusty themselves. (I realize Graz’zt does seduce the witches he visits, and succubi probably enjoy themselves, but those seem to be more secondary in each case.)

Which still doesn’t make the misstatement any less derpy. Anyway, thanks for the answer re: rewards for demonic impulsiveness. Apologies for injecting unwanted levels of, ahem, Discovery Channel into the thread.

[BlackDog918]

Alright, another Spelljammer question:

Spelljamming helms specifically call out spellcasters as the only ones capable of using them. My question is, would it be possible for an Artificer to fly a Spelljammer? Since they don't cast spells, technically I suppose they couldn't, but I have found no rules mentioning this.

[afroakuma]

Alright, another Spelljammer question:

Spelljamming helms specifically call out spellcasters as the only ones capable of using them. My question is, would it be possible for an Artificer to fly a Spelljammer?

A regular helm? No. If Eberron ever found its way into space, though, I'm sure artificers would find a way to develop an infused helm that just requires constant attention, tuning and the energies of the artificer. Alternative helms run on lots of power sources, after all.

[Larkas]

All? Oh good gravy no. I'll see if I can dig up some of the reference material he used.

Just a reminder for when you have the time! :smallredface:

[afroakuma]

Just a reminder for when you have the time! :smallredface:

Oh, I've been working on it. After backtracing a lot of sources, it seems like most of the work either exists or can be found through this forum (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=2), Nerik's stomping ground. I see a lot of activity from ripvanwormer there, which is a definite plus.

[Larkas]

Oh, I've been working on it. After backtracing a lot of sources, it seems like most of the work either exists or can be found through this forum (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=2), Nerik's stomping ground. I see a lot of activity from ripvanwormer there, which is a definite plus.

Oooooh, nice! I'll be sure to check it out! Thanks, Fro! :smallsmile:

[123456789blaaa]

Thank you again for the great answers Afro :smallbiggrin:



<snip>
The implications would be that Urdlen is in the same weight class as the eternal enemy of elvenkind, the demon queen of spiders, the master architect of a thousand plans to gather power and bring ruin and misery upon the populated worlds. Think of all the stuff Lolth's ever gotten up to, all the advances she's made, the myriad forces at her disposal hiding in the shadows, the conquered worlds...
Urdlen is in the same league. Think about it.

Ah.

The thing that I'm having trouble with though, is that Lolth actively works towards that stuff. She makes all these advances and intricate plots. She recruits creatures and servants. Urdlen doesn't do any of that so his being in the same league as Lolth would have to be expressed in a different way. How though? Pure combat power?

How do ethergaunts and mindflayers regard each other?

While in regular canon the gods aren't crucial to the functioning of the universe, in afro-canon it seems they are. Is this correct? If so, how do the various deity-hostile races across the planes (ethergaunts for example) deal with this? Why would they still want to starve the gods of worship and kill them if the gods deaths would screw them over? Are they trying to figure out ways to kill the gods without that happening?

Who are Orcus's allies?

What do you think was Pazazu's Form of Madness before he evolved?

If a non-unique demon (a dretch for example) somehow managed to gain the title of Prince of Demons, do they morph into a Unique demon automatically? If not, do the vastly-more-powerful-than-a-dretch demon princes suddenly find themselves much weaker than before?

If Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkFfK-mh1kQ) is a tanar'ri and tanar'ri are created from mortal souls, than how can he be a child of Pale Night?

[afroakuma]

The thing that I'm having trouble with though, is that Lolth actively works towards that stuff. She makes all these advances and intricate plots. She recruits creatures and servants. Urdlen doesn't do any of that so his being in the same league as Lolth would have to be expressed in a different way. How though? Pure combat power?

No, that would be Challenge Rating, not divine rank. Urdlen is of the same rough divine rank as Lolth.


How do ethergaunts and mindflayers regard each other?

They don't, usually. Ethergaunts have a general contempt for all peoples of the Prime, which extends to cover mind flayers. The two races did not encounter one another before the vanishing of the ethergaunts.


While in regular canon the gods aren't crucial to the functioning of the universe, in afro-canon it seems they are. Is this correct?

I think you're underestimating the one and overestimating the other. All the gods could die right now and it wouldn't take down the multiverse, but it sure wouldn't be a healthy thing. And no, I won't get more specific.


If so, how do the various deity-hostile races across the planes (ethergaunts for example) deal with this? Why would they still want to starve the gods of worship and kill them if the gods deaths would screw them over? Are they trying to figure out ways to kill the gods without that happening?

Most deity-hostile races are content to ignore the gods and be ignored by them; defiance by self-exclusion, basically. Few actively seek to destroy the gods, because it's a really stupid mission to set your sights on. A varakhut or two will show up and tell you off for your troubles, at least. The few that are dead-set on dead-setting a god or two are all of the opinion that it won't impact them.


Who are Orcus's allies?

Orcus has no true allies. He at times briefly works with a few others on particular goals or schemes, but the existence of any past or present pact does not significantly distinguish one in Orcus's eyes. He's worked with Pazuzu and Yeenoghu in the past. No, it wasn't really interesting.


What do you think was Pazazu's Form of Madness before he evolved?

That would be telling. :smalltongue:


If a non-unique demon (a dretch for example) somehow managed to gain the title of Prince of Demons

Literally impossible. One is by definition unique to have that title, the title does not create the uniqueness.


If Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=0m47s) is a tanar'ri and tanar'ri are created from mortal souls, than how can he be a child of Pale Night?

Tanar'ri can be created from mortal souls. They can also be born of the Abyss itself or in numerous other ways. The conflict between the various origins is exemplified in the trifecta of feuding princes; Demogorgon is one of the very first tanar'ri, shaped not from a soul but from a distillate of mortal fear. Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=0m47s) is a pureblood demon, born from another, proud of his terrible lineage. Orcus was a single mortal soul who clawed his way up the ranks. Seniority, privilege, hard work.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why does it seem that some of the strangest and most Lovecraftian crap gets coughed up from the Ethereal Plane?

[Alleran]

A varakhut or two will show up and tell you off for your troubles, at least.
Given that varakhut are defenders of gods and yet lawful, do they hold opinions on the necessity of chaotic gods? It seems to throw the whole "Law vs Chaos" aspect of things out, if you have lawful Inevitables repeatedly defending chaotic gods/powers. Does their mission "defend gods" take priority over any conflict that would arise from their lawful nature? And how might a chaotic god react?


Literally impossible. One is by definition unique to have that title, the title does not create the uniqueness.
What would a mortal somehow taking the title (a possibility in Savage Tide), or another demon lord like Orcus or Pazuzu, mean for Abyssal politics and/or balance and nature?

[Eldest]

Given that varakhut are defenders of gods and yet lawful, do they hold opinions on the necessity of chaotic gods? It seems to throw the whole "Law vs Chaos" aspect of things out, if you have lawful Inevitables repeatedly defending chaotic gods/powers. Does their mission "defend gods" take priority over any conflict that would arise from their lawful nature? And how might a chaotic god react?

Think of the statement "I hate what you are saying but I respect and will defend your right to say it." It's not impossible to defend somebody while hating everything they stand for.

[TuggyNE]

Given that varakhut are defenders of gods and yet lawful, do they hold opinions on the necessity of chaotic gods? It seems to throw the whole "Law vs Chaos" aspect of things out, if you have lawful Inevitables repeatedly defending chaotic gods/powers. Does their mission "defend gods" take priority over any conflict that would arise from their lawful nature? And how might a chaotic god react?

That's the sort of amusing paradox that is entirely in-character for Inevitables. It's like how Slaadi are exemplars of chaos, yet "giant frog" is how they're consistently regulated in shape.

[Yora]

Well, assuming that ultimate chaos is identical with maximum entropy, maybe the entropy of the D&D multiverse is frog shape? All matter and energy in existance has a natural tendency to assume a stable equlibrium state as a frog.

This demands the founding of a new Doomguard sect!

[Vedhin]

Well, assuming that ultimate chaos is identical with maximum entropy, maybe the entropy of the D&D multiverse is frog shape? All matter and energy in existance has a natural tendency to assume a stable equlibrium state as a frog.

This demands the founding of a new Doomguard sect!

No, Ygorl (with Ssendam's help), messed with the Spawning Stone. He didn't want to face a slaad from random mutation greater than he, so they locked future slaad into giant frogs.
Ssendam is a pile of golden Jello with a purple brain floating inside or something like that. That sort of thing was what true slaad from pre-Ygorl times were like.

[afroakuma]

Why does it seem that some of the strangest and most Lovecraftian crap gets coughed up from the Ethereal Plane?.

Because the Deep Ethereal is connected with neither fact (the Inner Planes) nor belief (the Outer Planes); it's remote, intangible, alien and vast. That which evolves and spawns in the Deep was never meant to touch upon any other world and has no context from which to draw when taking form apart from that of the Ethereal itself.


Given that varakhut are defenders of gods and yet lawful, do they hold opinions on the necessity of chaotic gods?

Varakhuts consider the protection of all gods to be within their mandate.


And how might a chaotic god react?

With amusement or indifference, most likely. Pretty much the same way you'd react to a Roomba catching a particularly clingy lint ball that was in your path before you step on it. The only ones who'd react negatively would be the ones spoiling for a fight, and they'd just smack the varakhut with banishment or the like.


What would a mortal somehow taking the title (a possibility in Savage Tide), or another demon lord like Orcus or Pazuzu, mean for Abyssal politics and/or balance and nature?

If you've read Savage Tide, you know what a mortal taking the title would mean. Pazuzu's not in the running for the title; Orcus and Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=0m47s) are. Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=0m47s) would likely cause a massive upheaval due to his conflicts with other lords and would attempt to use his wealth, connections and newfound power to assert his role as boss of the little club of elite demon princes that's always kicking about. Orcus would see it as a new opportunity to spread death and destruction, and a lot of lords would go along with him, but in doing so he'd run afoul of several deities ready to prey upon his divided attentions. On realizing that, he'd have to withdraw and come up with new plans, leaving a hole in the club that would cause it to splinter.

[Eldan]

What kind of weird deep ethereal alien stuff? I can't think of any creatures from the Deep Ethereal, off-hand. Plenty of Lovecraftian Weirdness from the Astral, though.

[Brookshw]

Ethergaunts are the first that come to mind for me.

[Xuldarinar]

I know this question is like asking which is colder, hellfire or the core of the sun, but I thought i'd ask anyways.


What is the most (at least potentially) benign type of fiend?

[Vedhin]

I know this question is like asking which is colder, hellfire or the core of the sun, but I thought i'd ask anyways.

Hellfire is colder. It's not fire, but evil energies that act like fire.:smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

What is the most (at least potentially) benign type of fiend?

There's that one variety that just wants to graft things onto people and can do so [number of times] per [time period] for free. Sibriex, I believe.

[Larkas]

What kind of weird deep ethereal alien stuff? I can't think of any creatures from the Deep Ethereal, off-hand. Plenty of Lovecraftian Weirdness from the Astral, though.

I was about to say that! Isn't the Astral weirder in that respect?

[Donox]

What is the relationship between primal elementals and archomentals?

What empires/power structures exist in the inner planes and who rules/occupies them?

What is the relationship between said empires (or whatever analogue you prefer) and archomentals?

[123456789blaaa]

Previously you said that Obox-ob gaining the title of Prince of Demons would "shift power back to the obyriths". What does this mean exactly? Their numbers are still decimated while the tanar'ri would still be numerous and entrenched...would the Abyss start birthing new obyriths? Would the existing ones get major power boosts?

Would Obox-ob want to restart the Law/Chaos war if he gained the title?

If Demogorgon managed to unite his two personality's, how would this effect things for him and everyone else?

What other Outer Planes have exemplars ruling their layers like Demon Princes and Archdukes do (that is, they have a magical connection to it that allows them to do stuff like morphing the terrain)?

I remember something about Obox-ob attempting to draw an entire world into his layer to fuel his return to the throne. Do you know of anything like this?

What benefit to gods/Demon Princes/etc gain from petitioners?

Are beings with the fiendish template common in the layers of the Lower Planes? Like, if someone goes to Zionyn, will they encounter a lot of Fiendish vermin and verminlike monsters?

[Mr Adventurer]

Dear Afroakuma,

Do you have any Actual Plays?

[afroakuma]

I know this question is like asking which is colder, hellfire or the core of the sun, but I thought i'd ask anyways.

What is the most (at least potentially) benign type of fiend?

Ehh... marraenoloths.


I was about to say that! Isn't the Astral weirder in that respect?

Ask Gareth, it was his opinion. :smalltongue:


What is the relationship between primal elementals and archomentals?

Primal elementals are to archomentals as the Leviathan is to Jaws. Powerful and alien, they are few in number but so great in scope that each is its own domain. The archomentals are more intelligent, more cunning, more purposeful and more powerful (in the sense of having a greater variety of abilities to draw upon), but primal elementals are vast, free and unaligned, and they just don't care.


What empires/power structures exist in the inner planes and who rules/occupies them?

Ehh, pretty much splits between gods, archomentals and genies, with other elemental races now and then. The Positive and Negative Energy Planes are both exceedingly empty, but the Elemental Planes all have various established nations drawn from those pools.


What is the relationship between said empires (or whatever analogue you prefer) and archomentals?

Well, the realms of the archomentals are included above. Each archomental has various alliances and enmities, of course, but by and large they're not the biggest fish in the pond.


Previously you said that Obox-ob gaining the title of Prince of Demons would "shift power back to the obyriths". What does this mean exactly? Their numbers are still decimated while the tanar'ri would still be numerous and entrenched...would the Abyss start birthing new obyriths?

If an obyrith were Prince of Demons? Yes.


Would the existing ones get major power boosts?

Not just like that, no, but they'd likely emerge to seek power to keep ahead of the new generation.


Would Obox-ob want to restart the Law/Chaos war if he gained the title?

Who knows? He wasn't up for it originally, after all.


If Demogorgon managed to unite his two personality's, how would this effect things for him and everyone else?

Well, it would mean he gave up the Prince of Demons title, so pretty much the same as him losing the Prince of Demons title.


What other Outer Planes have exemplars ruling their layers like Demon Princes and Archdukes do (that is, they have a magical connection to it that allows them to do stuff like morphing the terrain)?

Well, I mean, slaad lords can do that, but let's be fair, they're in Limbo. The Court of Stars has a far more limited capacity to do the same, but that's not the sort of thing you're referring to. Apart from demons and devils, no exemplars do that.


I remember something about Obox-ob attempting to draw an entire world into his layer to fuel his return to the throne. Do you know of anything like this?

Can't think of it offhand, no.


What benefit to gods/Demon Princes/etc gain from petitioners?

Souls = power, you know this.


Are beings with the fiendish template common in the layers of the Lower Planes? Like, if someone goes to Zionyn, will they encounter a lot of Fiendish vermin and verminlike monsters?

Yes.


Dear Afroakuma,

Do you have any Actual Plays?

I don't know what those Actually Are.

[Alleran]

If you've read Savage Tide, you know what a mortal taking the title would mean.
You've mentioned before that the title carries certain special connotations to it - if a human takes the job, they just appear in game terms to pick up the tanar'ri subtype ("become a demon") and slide towards chaotic evil, with the chance of developing the same second-head-madness as Demogorgon. I was curious about how those special connotations would affect a mortal beyond what's said in the adventure itself.

[Donox]

Great answers. Thanks!

That said...




Well, the realms of the archomentals are included above. Each archomental has various alliances and enmities, of course, but by and large they're not the biggest fish in the pond.



Are the biggest fish in this case deities?

That begs the question, what deities occupy the inner planes?

What is the denizens of the inner plane's view of the prime? (Do they view it with ambivalence, a potential conquest, or something else altogether?)

What are the effects of planar portals to elemental planes on the prime?

[Xuldarinar]

Ehh... marraenoloths.

Somehow I am surprised that it would be a Yugoloth, as opposed to a demon or devil, but looking at them (marraenoloths) I can see why.

[afroakuma]

You've mentioned before that the title carries certain special connotations to it - if a human takes the job, they just appear in game terms to pick up the tanar'ri subtype ("become a demon") and slide towards chaotic evil, with the chance of developing the same second-head-madness as Demogorgon. I was curious about how those special connotations would affect a mortal beyond what's said in the adventure itself.

As far as the title's concerned? They'd need to be capable of defending it, or they'd find themselves dead in short order. Every demon capable of becoming aware of it would do so, like a convulsion rippling through the Abyss. The plane itself would probably try to eat them just for giggles.


Are the biggest fish in this case deities?

As individuals? Sure, probably. Can never tell what lies in the depths of the Inner Planes, though.


That begs the question, what deities occupy the inner planes?

I can't be bothered to put together a full list, but the four elemental deities of Faerun each reside in the appropriate plane, as do some other gods associated with those elements. Blipdoolpoolp, the kuo-toa goddess, makes her realm on the Plane of Water, as do some other racial deities of aquatic races. Generally, though, very few powers choose to make their realms on the Inner Planes.


What is the denizens of the inner plane's view of the prime? (Do they view it with ambivalence, a potential conquest, or something else altogether?)

Varies. There's no way to generalize. The elementals, at least, usually don't think about it at all, if they're even aware of it.


What are the effects of planar portals to elemental planes on the prime?

Far less severe than the impact of an Outer Planar portal. An elemental portal rarely manages to remain stable without being grounded in the requisite element, so they tend to exist for any length of time only in places where their nature is not immediately obtrusive. Beyond denizens slipping through, the chief effects are the potential for preternatural elemental manifestations - impossible whirlpools, wind labyrinths, sheets of everblazing or solid flame, shapeshifting earth - and the increased presence of elemental material in the area, which is occasionally of interest to magic wielders for its properties.


Somehow I am surprised that it would be a Yugoloth, as opposed to a demon or devil, but looking at them (marraenoloths) I can see why.

Well, yeah, they just deal most and most fairly with others, since that's their role. If you're so evil that nobody will get on your boat, why have a boat?

[Brookshw]

What would happen if the spawning stone was destroyed? Would Limbo just start spitting Slaad's out anyway? The Slaad recreate it? Can it be destroyed?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Well, it would mean he gave up the Prince of Demons title, so pretty much the same as him losing the Prince of Demons title.

Really? Why?

Does Demogorgon know this? If so, why does he think not having to fight himself is worth losing the powers the title bestows upon him?



Well, I mean, slaad lords can do that, but let's be fair, they're in Limbo. The Court of Stars has a far more limited capacity to do the same, but that's not the sort of thing you're referring to. Apart from demons and devils, no exemplars do that.<snip>

Do you have any conjecture as to why this is the case?



Souls = power, you know this.
<snip>


Right but from what I've read, petitioners don't really do much except live once they get to the domain of their diety/Demon Prince/etc. Do those beings use the petitioners after they've lived their for a while? Why don't the Evil ones just use them immediately?

Why is it that a non‐unique mortal can gain the title of Prince of Demons but a non‐unique demon can't?

Do the signs of the Elder Evils work if they're not on the Prime?

What's the in‐universe reason for why some beings have Elder Evil traits and some don't? Like, why does Sertrous get a Sign when Turglas doesn't?

While becoming a god gives a being a lot of cool personal toys (portfolio sense, salient divine abilities), doees it impact that beings worshippers that much? Demon Princes for example, can send Planar Allies, can get petitioners, can have clerics (who don't derive power from them but still), etc. What does becoming a god give to a beings worshippers that they didn't already have (besides the ususal benefits to having a patron with more personal power)?

[Mystify]

While digging around, I came across someone say this

"For reference, Yugoloths were originally called Daemons, but got a name-change at the same time that Demons and Devils did. For some reason, though, they're the only one of the three that didn't officially get their names changed back when 3e rolled around."

do you know what they are referring to? Do they mean tanar'ri and baatezu?

[Yora]

Yes. Devil, Daemon, and Demon became Baatezu, Yugoloth, and Tanar'ri.

[RúsëaMenci]

For some reason, though, they're the only one of the three that didn't officially get their names changed back when 3e rolled around.
Probably because “demon” and “daemon” are the same word, and if you’re trying to make the distinction between the Latin vs. Greek spellings, that would imply you’re talking about the Greek philosophical concept of a daemon, which isn’t even remotely like the usual notion of a demon. So daemon wasn’t really ever a good choice.

[Mystify]

so

1st edition: Devil, Daemon, Demon, as the 3 types of fiends
2nd edition: Baatezu, Yugoloth, and Tanar'ri, as the 3 types of fiends
3rd edition: Devil, Yugoloth, Demon, as the 3 types of fiends, with Baatezu and Tanar'ri being the most common subtype of Devils and Demons

[Yora]

I think so.

And 4th edition completely reshuffled everything, with specific creatures being either demons or devils, regardless of their history or Planescape.

So the Mezzodaemon became Mezzoloth and is now Mezzodemon.

[afroakuma]

What would happen if the spawning stone was destroyed? Would Limbo just start spitting Slaad's out anyway?

It already does, a fact they conceal. More true slaad would appear until it was remade.


The Slaad recreate it?

The Slaad Lords would eventually do so, yes.


Can it be destroyed?

Theoretically, yes. Couldn't tell you how.


Really? Why?

It's the nature of him in that role. Resolving his internal chaos through unity would pretty much be like Microsoft endorsing the Wii U. Requires a surrender.

Now, the problem with your question is that you asked about uniting his personalities.


Does Demogorgon know this? If so, why does he think not having to fight himself is worth losing the powers the title bestows upon him?

Which is different from this. Killing one would be perfectly fine. Which is what the two of them want to do. Neither one wants to unite with the other; they want to be individual.


Do you have any conjecture as to why this is the case?

Only evil wants to keep its boot on things? :smalltongue:

Remember, the archons have the Hebdomad, each of whom protects one layer, but they don't have that connection and mastery of the layer that the devils and demons do because they wouldn't want it. Neither would the eladrins or the guardinals. The slaad think control is silly, and Primus would never deign to exert change over perfection, even to correct it when a defect appears (that's what workers are for). The yugoloths, meanwhile, think on a grander scale, but their plans haven't come to fruition yet.


Right but from what I've read, petitioners don't really do much except live once they get to the domain of their diety/Demon Prince/etc.

Then you haven't read enough, not to mention you've missed past questions on the same topic. Petitioners grow to become more like the being they worshiped in life, eventually merging with that entity.


Why is it that a non‐unique mortal can gain the title of Prince of Demons but a non‐unique demon can't?

A mortal might be a non-unique mortal, but it's a hell of a unique demon. :smalltongue:


Do the signs of the Elder Evils work if they're not on the Prime?

Given that they're signs that the Elder Evil's influence is on the Prime, by definition the answer is no. That does not preclude them having some alternate effect elsewhere, of course.


What's the in‐universe reason for why some beings have Elder Evil traits and some don't? Like, why does Sertrous get a Sign when Turglas doesn't?

Okay first of all it's Turaglas, learn to spell.

Second of all, those ones have Signs because they're the ones being represented as Elder Evils. If Turaglas or Zuggtmoy or Bayemon or Siragle or Malcanthet or Orcus or whoever else was doing the same, they'd have an associated Sign.


While becoming a god gives a being a lot of cool personal toys (portfolio sense, salient divine abilities), doees it impact that beings worshippers that much?

Oh yes. Protections associated with the divine, the impact of such salient divine abilities (even for demigods, not a small thing), a destination in the afterlife with the security of a divine realm, the fact that their patron can't be blocked off or summoned away or otherwise interfered with...

Worshiping a god is a lot more secure than worshiping something that can't directly help you.


While digging around, I came across someone say this

"For reference, Yugoloths were originally called Daemons, but got a name-change at the same time that Demons and Devils did. For some reason, though, they're the only one of the three that didn't officially get their names changed back when 3e rolled around."

do you know what they are referring to? Do they mean tanar'ri and baatezu?

They do, yes. The quote's referring to the fact that yugoloths in 3.X are never referred to as daemons. Mainly it's because who cares. :smalltongue:

[123456789blaaa]

Turglas, Turaglas...meh. He was never one of my favorite Demon Princes. Not worth the effort to look up the correct spelling. You know who I mean.


Which is different from this. Killing one would be perfectly fine. Which is what the two of them want to do. Neither one wants to unite with the other; they want to be individual.

Obvious follow‐up: If Demogorgon managed to kill one of his two personalities, how would this effect things for him and everyone else?

Can a Demon Prince that becomes a god (or a vestige or whatever), still have Thrall classes?

If Ahazu's plan to become a god succeeded, what level of god would he emerge as (demigod, lesser, etc)? Would he make his divine realm in the Wells of Darkness?

Is Shattered Night the realm from which all vestiges live in? If not, than why can beings imprisoned there be interacted with by using Pact Magic?

Did the Prince of Demons title give Obox‐ob a second personality (I'm going by Savage Tide here which states that the title does that to anyone that has it) back when he had it? In afro‐canon, does the title still implant a second personality or did you get rid of that? I suppose the title doing that fits with the nature of the Abyss but it does take away some of Demogorgons uniqueness...

Can a Demon Prince/Archduke forge a connection to multiple layers? I know Graz'zt can but wasn't that an exception (I remember it having something to do with his palace...)?

People can believe in practically anything and still get divine power right (it's Sertrous's whole shtick after all)? If this is so, than why do worshippers of a god get their powers cut off if their god is killed or imprisoned or whatever (Kyuss could only grant spells of up to 4rth level for a long time for example)? Wouldn't they keep getting power from their belief?

[Eldan]

Alternate hypothetical, since I know you love them: do you see a way for Demogorgon to instead split into two independent bodies? If so, what would happen? Would their essence each be too weak to rule the Abyss? (Probably?)

[afroakuma]

Obvious follow‐up: If Demogorgon managed to kill one of his two personalities, how would this effect things for him and everyone else?

Obvious follow-up: stab.

I hate follow-up questions so much. :smallsigh:

The answer should be in Savage Tide. Go. Read. Bother me no more. I'd answer if I had it on hand right now, but I don't.


Can a Demon Prince that becomes a god (or a vestige or whatever), still have Thrall classes?

I don't see why not.


If Ahazu's plan to become a god succeeded, what level of god would he emerge as (demigod, lesser, etc)?

Who knows?


Would he make his divine realm in the Wells of Darkness?

Up to him. Personally, I'd be all too eager to be well shot of that place, but that's me. He can't make it off-layer, though, so it's of little benefit for him to stay.


Is Shattered Night the realm from which all vestiges live in?

No.


If not, than why can beings imprisoned there be interacted with by using Pact Magic?

They're outside enough that some of them can be reached in the silence. Pact magic is a very quiet thing, metaphorically speaking, and it can't do a thing through the noise of the regular cosmology. Shattered Night is removed enough that it can be touched by binders.


Did the Prince of Demons title give Obox‐ob a second personality (I'm going by Savage Tide here which states that the title does that to anyone that has it) back when he had it?

No. Savage Tide flat-out says that that effect does not apply to other demon lords. It's not an inherent quality of the title. It's an inherent quality of Demogorgon's title.


Can a Demon Prince/Archduke forge a connection to multiple layers? I know Graz'zt can but wasn't that an exception (I remember it having something to do with his palace...)?

An archduke might be able to in theory, but it's never been done, so it's impossible to state one way or the other. Demon princes do have the power to command and control multiple Abyssal layers.


People can believe in practically anything and still get divine power right (it's Sertrous's whole shtick after all)? If this is so, than why do worshippers of a god get their powers cut off if their god is killed or imprisoned or whatever (Kyuss could only grant spells of up to 4rth level for a long time for example)?

What do you think?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Up to him. Personally, I'd be all too eager to be well shot of that place, but that's me. He can't make it off-layer, though, so it's of little benefit for him to stay.
<snip>

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence here (sorry). Does "off-layer" refer to the layer called the Wells of Darkness or all the layers of the Abyss? If it's the former than it would be very beneficial to stay. If it's the latter than you saying "He can't make it off-layer" doesn't seem to have relevance to the question of him staying on the layer called the Wells of Darkness.


No. Savage Tide flat-out says that that effect does not apply to other demon lords. It's not an inherent quality of the title. It's an inherent quality of Demogorgon's title.
<snip>

The effect does apply to beings that weren't already demon lords though. Not sure what's up with that...:smallconfused:.


What do you think?

I don't know. Death of their god could shake their faith enough that they wouldn't be able to draw power from their own belief I suppose (if they knew about the death). If the god was just weak and imprisoned though (like Kyuss), I don't see why they wouldn't stop drawing from him and start drawing from themselves(consciously or otherwise).

Unless he told them he was too weak to grant spells I suppose...but why would he do that?

EDIT: And I suppose the answer here is that they can't draw upon their own personal power while worshipping a god. The connection between them and their god that they use to draw power also stops them from creating a connection to themselves.

[Yora]

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence here (sorry). Does "off-layer" refer to the layer called the Wells of Darkness or all the layers of the Abyss?
It means being unable to leave the current layer of the plane.

[123456789blaaa]

It means being unable to leave the current layer of the plane.

What do you mean by "current" layer?

[Mr Adventurer]

Actual Plays are online records made of a game you've played. :) Session writeups, that kind of thing.

[Clistenes]

I know this question is like asking which is colder, hellfire or the core of the sun, but I thought i'd ask anyways.


What is the most (at least potentially) benign type of fiend?

If the Guardian Daemons count as fiends, I would say that they are the most benign kind. They are sometimes almost neutral.

[RúsëaMenci]

Actual Plays are online records made of a game you've played. :) Session writeups, that kind of thing.
He started some epic write-ups of his Ivalicegame, but never finished them. :smallannoyed:

I’m not bitter or anything.

[afroakuma]

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence here (sorry). Does "off-layer" refer to the layer called the Wells of Darkness or all the layers of the Abyss? If it's the former than it would be very beneficial to stay. If it's the latter than you saying "He can't make it off-layer" doesn't seem to have relevance to the question of him staying on the layer called the Wells of Darkness.

Yeah you don't understand, so I'm going to have to spell it out.

Ahazu resides off-layer (outside of the plane of existence via Shattered Night) as a protective measure. He could no longer do that as a deity. He could set up shop on the layer proper, but there's no point in doing that since he can't really take advantage of its properties as he once had and he'd be surrounded by enemies who might use his nearby divine presence to plot their own schemes to escape. So he should probably establish his divine realm somewhere else.


The effect does apply to beings that weren't already demon lords though. Not sure what's up with that...:smallconfused:.

It's the mantle of a demon lord. To use a really stretched analogy, take a song by a popular musician. You sing it at a karaoke bar or school concert or wherever else, it's you performing their song. Another popular musician performs it, and suddenly it's their rendition of that song. It's no longer "Prince of Demons" by Aamuel & Hethradiah, it's "Prince of Demons" by Tom Jones or "Prince of Demons" by Orcus or whatever else.


I don't see why they wouldn't stop drawing from him and start drawing from themselves(consciously or otherwise).

1) Like most of that book, Sertrous's section is serious high-octane crap. The whole heretic angle is almost completely neglected beyond serving as an excuse to give him a celestial underling.

2) Drawing power from faith in other things is not easy. Gods are lightning rods of faith, and they're always looking for more. Most worlds where clerics can draw power from ideals have no native pantheon or deities of note. Divine power is never drawn from the self (unless you're a god); it is manifested from faith. When a god dies, what his followers believe in is no longer there. They cannot receive power from a vacuum, and that is where their faith now lies, for it gets sucked into the god's corpse on the Astral Plane.

3) Drawing power from faith in yourself is nearly impossible. It goes beyond mere self-confidence, because you actually have to believe that you are divine, that you have divine power, and that you are a source of divine power to be brought forth. You have to not only feel you embody something but actually do that enough to convince yourself and others, or you can't make it work. And of course, if any real gods are around, they can and will interfere.


Actual Plays are online records made of a game you've played. :) Session writeups, that kind of thing.

Ah.

No.


If the Guardian Daemons count as fiends, I would say that they are the most benign kind. They are sometimes almost neutral.

They don't. They're constructs of a sort, concocted by the yugoloths as substitutes when mortals come a-summoning.


He started some epic write-ups of his Ivalicegame, but never finished them. :smallannoyed:

On the bright side, Ivalicegame was awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

These questions may stray into FR-specific planar information:

1) Errtu the balor is said occasionally to rule over an Abyssal layer. Can you clarify this? Is he a particularly powerful and/or unique balor on the verge of demon lord, or is he just a ruler of a significant portion of an unclaimed layer?

2) If a balor (or any demon, really) is repeatedly brought to the Material Plane and is also repeatedly banished by mortals (or the same mortal), will there be a corresponding loss of status in the Abyss? Since tanar'ri are AFAIK immortal, is banishment such a big deal when they have thousands of years to plot revenge against the individual who banished them and/or their descendants?

[Brookshw]

I've been trying to find more information regarding the Hebdomad beyond what's outlined in the BoED but have been coming up a bit short. Any chance you can point me in a direction? Anything particular note-able that they've done? Other than sitting on Mt. Celestial there seems to be a bit of a shortage as far as canon actions they've taken that I've been able to find.

[afroakuma]

These questions may stray into FR-specific planar information:

1) Errtu the balor is said occasionally to rule over an Abyssal layer. Can you clarify this? Is he a particularly powerful and/or unique balor on the verge of demon lord, or is he just a ruler of a significant portion of an unclaimed layer?

You can be a demon lord without being unique, but no, Errtu does not rule a whole layer.


2) If a balor (or any demon, really) is repeatedly brought to the Material Plane and is also repeatedly banished by mortals (or the same mortal), will there be a corresponding loss of status in the Abyss?

"Social" status? Definitely. Errtu's a joke now.


Since tanar'ri are AFAIK immortal, is banishment such a big deal when they have thousands of years to plot revenge against the individual who banished them and/or their descendants?

Banishment's still humiliating and still takes away from time that you could have spent preying on the Prime. Hundred years also usually means that direct revenge is out, and given how impatient most tanar'ri are, that stings.


I've been trying to find more information regarding the Hebdomad beyond what's outlined in the BoED

Good luck. :smalltongue:


Any chance you can point me in a direction?

Ehh, (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Barachiel) you (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Domiel) could (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Erathaol) try (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pistis_Sophia) their (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Raziel) Canonfire (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sealtiel) pages... (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zaphkiel) but even those are pretty bare-bones.


Anything particular note-able that they've done?

No.


Other than sitting on Mt. Celestial there seems to be a bit of a shortage as far as canon actions they've taken that I've been able to find.

Celestial paragons are rarely mentioned or involved in material since they're not as broadly useful as archfiends.

[Coidzor]

They don't. They're constructs of a sort, concocted by the yugoloths as substitutes when mortals come a-summoning.

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them? Is that exactly the sort of thing that the Demodands are/started out as?

[Fable Wright]

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them? Is that exactly the sort of thing that the Demodands are/started out as?

Notably, the Retriever in the SRD seems to be one.

[afroakuma]

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them? Is that exactly the sort of thing that the Demodands are/started out as?

Well, in a sense, many exemplars were originally "created," and demodands would fall into that lot. Guardian yuguloths, however, are completely artifice. I don't think they were translated to 3.X, so I can't say whether or not they have the outsider type. If they are constructs, then they would share the same background with retrievers and quesars. If not, then they're the only such example I can think of off the cuff.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Are the Elder Evils only able to do their thing on the material plane, or can they be "Summoned" on other planes?

[afroakuma]

Are the Elder Evils only able to do their thing on the material plane, or can they be "Summoned" on other planes?

Depends which one. Pandorym would definitely be a terrible thing on any plane, while the Hulks of Zoretha would be a joke off-Prime. In general, what's described in the book is only for the Prime, though.

[Rion]

Do you know the reason for the Baatezu's rather unusual attitude towards the Sign of One?

[123456789blaaa]

Yeah you don't understand, so I'm going to have to spell it out.

Ahazu resides off-layer (outside of the plane of existence via Shattered Night) as a protective measure. He could no longer do that as a deity. He could set up shop on the layer proper, but there's no point in doing that since he can't really take advantage of its properties as he once had and he'd be surrounded by enemies who might use his nearby divine presence to plot their own schemes to escape. So he should probably establish his divine realm somewhere else.
<snip>

I assumed that Ahazu has taken it upon himself to be the warden and "master" of the prison (fits with his portfolio as well) rather than just using it as a means to become a god. Why else would he offer incentives to try and get powerful beings into the prison?

I suppose he could create the realm somewhere else and continue to protect the Wells. Making his divine realm on that layer (as well as maybe becoming the Demon Prince of it?) would add a ton of security though.


On the bright side, Ivalicegame was awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Details?

Are gods a source of divine power separate from a generic "having faith in something" (ideals, yourself, etc)?

With the advent of a new thread, it's time for something I know you'll enjoy- Kyuss questions!:

Age of Worms says that when Kyuss is killed, threads of his portfolio remain (that Lashonna may be able to harvest and become a goddess with). Assuming she managed to do this, would she gain his exact portfolio or would she gain the portfolio she would have gotten had she ascended via having a crapton of people believing her to be a deity (or some other "generic" way)? Like, would she become Kyuss 2.0 or a new deity of undeath?

If the PC's fail to slay Kyuss the Age of Worms begins. Now, Dragon mag 135 page 69 says that the religion of Kyuss becomes one of the most powerful religions on Oerth. The issue also talks about rains of Kyuss worms, flights of broodfiends that raze cities in hours, and corpses rising as undead within minutes. My question is: does Kyuss manage to take over all of Oerth? While most gods are prevented from interfering directly on the Prime, what about gods like Vecna and Iuz who are stuck there? Being gods themselves, would they manage to defend their borders against the worm-ridden horde? What would powerful NPC's like Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight do?

Would having an entire, filled Prime world under their control give a demigod a boost in status on the Planes?

Does Nerull want the Age of Worms to come to pass? I know he was worshipped by Kyuss but I can't remember if he approved of Kyuss's grab at godhood...

If Kyuss believes in the superiority of undeath over life, why did his earliest creations (the sons of Kyuss) incorporate both life and death in their being? That's more life than a normal zombie! I know he ranks life that exults in the tearing down of the natural world above normal life but he still considers undeath to be above even that right (or does he consider the two to be equal?)? I remember a bit in the Age of Worms adventure path which had two corridors in the Spire of Long Shadows: one that represented his mastery over life and one that represented his mastery over death. That might be something.

[Bronk]

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them?

I think the Inevitables would count too....

[afroakuma]

Do you know the reason for the Baatezu's rather unusual attitude towards the Sign of One?

Can't think of what that is offhand. Would you mind reminding me?


I suppose he could create the realm somewhere else and continue to protect the Wells.

"Protect" isn't a word that usually comes to mind when referring to the demonic mentality.


Making his divine realm on that layer (as well as maybe becoming the Demon Prince of it?) would add a ton of security though.

No it wouldn't. Layer = infinite. Divine realm = not infinite.


Details?

You're going to have to be more specific.


Are gods a source of divine power separate from a generic "having faith in something" (ideals, yourself, etc)?

Yes.


With the advent of a new thread, it's time for something I know you'll enjoy- Kyuss questions!:

Die slowly.


Age of Worms says that when Kyuss is killed, threads of his portfolio remain (that Lashonna may be able to harvest and become a goddess with). Assuming she managed to do this, would she gain his exact portfolio or would she gain the portfolio she would have gotten had she ascended via having a crapton of people believing her to be a deity (or some other "generic" way)? Like, would she become Kyuss 2.0 or a new deity of undeath?

Kyuss 1.5 since it's bits of his portfolio and she won't be him as an individual.


If the PC's fail to slay Kyuss the Age of Worms begins. Now, Dragon mag 135 page 69 says that the religion of Kyuss becomes one of the most powerful religions on Oerth. The issue also talks about rains of Kyuss worms, flights of broodfiends that raze cities in hours, and corpses rising as undead within minutes.

Or as I like to call it, Wednesday.


My question is: does Kyuss manage to take over all of Oerth?

The implication is that Kyuss is just the forerunner of something worse, though he may not have gotten that memo. It's pretty likely that what follows is at the very least a long and brutal war between other gods and Kyuss, not to mention the Circle of Eight.


Would having an entire, filled Prime world under their control give a demigod a boost in status on the Planes?

Might be enough to bump up a divine rank or two, but most gods don't bother keeping score like that since it's silly. Lolth has half a dozen or more firmly under her heel and never mentions any of them.


Does Nerull want the Age of Worms to come to pass?

Probably not.


I know he was worshipped by Kyuss but I can't remember if he approved of Kyuss's grab at godhood...

He did approve of Kyuss's original grab at godhood, the one that failed. Of course, that one fulfilled no prophecies, so it wasn't an issue.


If Kyuss believes in the superiority of undeath over life, why did his earliest creations (the sons of Kyuss) incorporate both life and death in their being?

The worms don't count.

[Rion]

Can't think of what that is offhand. Would you mind reminding me?

"For some reason, the Baatezu are somehow aligned with the Signers. It's unknown exactly why, but its rare to see a Baatezu attacking a member of the Sign of One... the Baatezu seem to grant them a sort of respect. The Sign of One doesn't seem to acknowledge a treaty of any sort, since almost without exception ever one of their members has a different opinion." Source. (http://mimir.net/psmush/signers.shtml)

[Yora]

Does Nerull want the Age of Worms to come to pass? I know he was worshipped by Kyuss but I can't remember if he approved of Kyuss's grab at godhood...
In the Age of Worms, Kyuss would reign supreme and there wouldn't be a place for Nerull. I don't think he'd be happy about that in any way.

You're going to have to be more specific.
"What it Ivalicegame?"

[Fable Wright]

Or as I like to call it, Wednesday.

You have a negative zip code (http://xkcd.com/1245/)?

[Clistenes]

In the Age of Worms, Kyuss would reign supreme and there wouldn't be a place for Nerull. I don't think he'd be happy about that in any way.

I don't think so. A new God of Undeath walking Flanaess would be bad news for mortals, but he's still a Rank 1 Demigod, and there are several more powerful deities living on Oerth (Iuz, Vecna, Fharlanghn, Mayaheine, Obad-hai...etc.). I don't think he could push away all other gods.

[afroakuma]

Source. (http://mimir.net/psmush/signers.shtml)

Don't recall seeing that in any canonical source.


"What it Ivalicegame?"

Game I used to run in the FFT Ivalice setting, 100 years after the War of the Lions. Was fun.


You have a negative zip code (http://xkcd.com/1245/)?

Sir, I am a negative zip code.

[enderlord99]

Sir, I am a negative zip code.

Seeing as zip codes are (sort of) locations, is it possible you're related to Neth?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
"Protect" isn't a word that usually comes to mind when referring to the demonic mentality.

Sure it is. The difference from mortals is that demons almost always only want to protect things for selfish reasons. Zuggtmoy wants to protect her layer, the Dark Prince wants to protect his library from thieves (when it doesn't benefit his plans to let them think they've gotten away with it...), etc etc etc. Ahazu is the one who created the prison by digging the shafts and he's the one who offered incentives to lure beings into being imprisoned. Ahazu has put a lot of effort into his prison so it makes sense that he'd want to stop other people from say...breaking the prisoners out.

Also, could you list the creatures you remember that make a practise of abducting people?


No it wouldn't. Layer = infinite. Divine realm = not infinite.
<snip>



Although the Wells of Darkness is a finite layer of the Abyss, it lies amidst an endless void that encompasses its physical core.

Unless the writers were being dumb (or I'm misinterpreting the quote), the Wells of Darkness are a special exception to the layers of the Abyss being infinite.

Perhaps the meaning is that Shattered Night is actually a part of the layer and the rocky part is just the physical part. Given that you need to go through a "planar tear" to get into SN though, I'm not sure that's correct.


The worms don't count.

Did he just decide to ignore that the worms are alive because he really likes worms or something?


I don't think so. A new God of Undeath walking Flanaess would be bad news for mortals, but he's still a Rank 1 Demigod, and there are several more powerful deities living on Oerth (Iuz, Vecna, Fharlanghn, Mayaheine, Obad-hai...etc.). I don't think he could push away all other gods.

If he was working with only himself and his followers no. Like Afro said though, the implication is that Kyuss is just the forerunner of something worse. That stuff I posted above about rains of Kyuss worms and such? None of that is Kyuss's doing. So it depends on how much worse the thing that will come will be.

[ShadowFireLance]

Was Sertous mentioned in anything other then Elder Evils?

[afroakuma]

Seeing as zip codes are (sort of) locations, is it possible you're related to Neth?

Negative zip codes demarcate conceptual space, not physical space. I'm not related in any way to that ridiculous ball of wax.


Sure it is.

-n't. Isn't.


Also, could you list the creatures you remember that make a practise of abducting people?

Can't think of a one.


Unless the writers were being dumb (or I'm misinterpreting the quote), the Wells of Darkness are a special exception to the layers of the Abyss being infinite.

Fine, you odiferous singleminded pedant, Wells of Darkness = finite but easily bigger than a piddling divine realm by miles and miles. Divine realm = horribly horribly small. Point stands: you're wrong.


Did he just decide to ignore that the worms are alive because he really likes worms or something?

They're not life as anyone would normally recognize it.


Was Sertous mentioned in anything other then Elder Evils?

Yes, another source made a passing mention of him. Can't remember if it was Dragon magazine or FCI, and I'm not particularly interested in going to look. It wasn't a significant mention, of course, just the same stuff from Elder Evils and much less of that.

[Rion]

Don't recall seeing that in any canonical source.

Considering I'm pretty sure that's not the only website I've seen describing it (though I may be mistaken) , does that mean it's just a bunch of fanon which spread?

[Norin]

Is it by any chance the same evil being you stop from returning in the adventure "fortress of the yuan-ti"? Xertrous or something.

[123456789blaaa]

What benefits do worshippers get from sacrificing people in the fluff (besides the variant rules in the BOVD)? Is doing so purely a show of devotion that didn't really get the worshipper anything? What benefits does the being who's being worshipped gain? I know that for Demon Princes at least, the sacrificial victims that accept the worship before they're sacrificed go to the Princes realm as petitioners instead of their normal afterlife.

If a non-native obtains the title of Lord of [layer of the Nine Hells], are they known as "Archdevils" even if they aren't actually devils?

Is there any way to turn a demon into an undead creature (besides polymorphing and other form-changing magic)?

If the obyriths came back into power (and assuming the Queen of Chaos and Miska are out of the picture), would they continue the Blood War? IIRC before the Law/Chaos war they mostly kept to themselves.

Last question about the Wells/Ahazu I swear: What do the varrangoins and Ahazu gain from imprisoning powerful beings in the Wells? Wikipeida says that they gain "wealth, power, and prestige" but I can't find anything in the Dragon article that says either way.

While many of the gods/Demon Princes/Archdukes/etc have consorts and lovers, are any actually married? As in "husband and wife"?

[Urpriest]

Is there any way to turn a demon into an undead creature (besides polymorphing and other form-changing magic)?

Lichfiends (Libris Mortis) and Blood Fiends (Fiend Folio) exist.

[123456789blaaa]

Lichfiends (Libris Mortis) and Blood Fiends (Fiend Folio) exist.

Ah yes. I remember that visages (also from LM) can turn other evil outsiders into them as well.

[afroakuma]

Considering I'm pretty sure that's not the only website I've seen describing it (though I may be mistaken) , does that mean it's just a bunch of fanon which spread?

I haven't pulled it up on any of the regular sites. Get me a citation and I'll pursue it further.


Is it by any chance the same evil being you stop from returning in the adventure "fortress of the yuan-ti"? Xertrous or something.

Boom, that's where it was. Thank you. Exact same one.


What benefits do worshippers get from sacrificing people in the fluff (besides the variant rules in the BOVD)?

What benefits do you get besides the benefits? :smallconfused: You're a strange monkey.


Is doing so purely a show of devotion that didn't really get the worshipper anything?

Well for some of them it's mandatory as part of the worship.


What benefits does the being who's being worshipped gain?

Depends; usually a sacrificial rite is designed in such a way as to channel power to the entity from the sacrifice, but they don't typically get the soul.


If a non-native obtains the title of Lord of [layer of the Nine Hells], are they known as "Archdevils" even if they aren't actually devils?

Yes.


Is there any way to turn a demon into an undead creature (besides polymorphing and other form-changing magic)?

See posts above.


If the obyriths came back into power (and assuming the Queen of Chaos and Miska are out of the picture), would they continue the Blood War? IIRC before the Law/Chaos war they mostly kept to themselves.

Depends who's leading, I suppose, but various scenarios have been proposed in some sources; I think Savage Tide had one for Obox-ob. Go look. :smalltongue:


Last question about the Wells/Ahazu I swear:

Is Fro going to kill you now? Yes he is!


What do the varrangoins and Ahazu gain from imprisoning powerful beings in the Wells? Wikipeida says that they gain "wealth, power, and prestige" but I can't find anything in the Dragon article that says either way.

Well yeah, since they basically sell the service to others. Ahazu wears down their souls for his own power, while the varrangoins make great connections and get recognized as a go-to mercenary imprisonment crew for your most hated enemies.


While many of the gods/Demon Princes/Archdukes/etc have consorts and lovers, are any actually married? As in "husband and wife"?

Oh I'm sure that some must be. The ones based on real-world pantheons would have the same relations as the originals.

[Lord_Gareth]

In what scenario beyond 'legal obligation' would Mephistopheles side with the Lord Below against another of the Archdukes?

[Rion]

I haven't pulled it up on any of the regular sites. Get me a citation and I'll pursue it further.
Yeah no. I can't find anything else. Looks like I mistook someone's homebrew for something official since I don't know much about Planescape.

[Alleran]

Depends who's leading, I suppose, but various scenarios have been proposed in some sources; I think Savage Tide had one for Obox-ob. Go look. :smalltongue:
It does indeed. Obox-ob starts hurling armies of obyrith monstrosities at the new Prince of Demons (or the old one, if Demogorgon wasn't deposed). If he manages to depose the current Prince of Demons and reclaim his title, the nature of the Abyss changes. The tanar'ri are rapidly depleted and forced into hiding as the Abyss begins to spawn and disgorge new obyrith armies. These armies don't stay in the Abyss for long, and rapidly begin disgorging through portals and into the Astral Plane, and from there start to plague dozens of places/planes throughout the multiverse. They especially target the eladrin and elemental planes, because the obyriths remember their loss from long ago and want revenge.

That said, it's also noted that even if Demogorgon is killed, it's only a matter of time before he returns, either grown from the shell of a surviving aspect, resurrected by a minion, or spontaneously reformed by the Abyss, so he'll presumably be able to challenge Obox-ob again at some point.

(I'm not sure if this fully agrees with accepted Planescape canon/afro canon, mind you - I'm just noting what the scenario is.)

[afroakuma]

In what scenario beyond 'legal obligation' would Mephistopheles side with the Lord Below against another of the Archdukes?

Well, he hates Baalzebul, so anything involving the crushing of his rival would draw his tacit support. He's too smart to ever fully commit to something alongside his former friend, though, since that's exactly the sort of play that Asmodeus does to wreck people.


Yeah no. I can't find anything else. Looks like I mistook someone's homebrew for something official since I don't know much about Planescape.

Meh, happens.


That said, it's also noted that even if Demogorgon is killed, it's only a matter of time before he returns, either grown from the shell of a surviving aspect, resurrected by a minion, or spontaneously reformed by the Abyss, so he'll presumably be able to challenge Obox-ob again at some point.

I sure wouldn't challenge a fully-restored Obox-ob if I were... basically anyone. The Queen of Chaos only managed to gank him in the first place because it was a complete surprise attack.

[Vedhin]

Meh, happens.

Especially since the Mimir site tends to be fairly well thought out, compared to most things.

[Yora]

While many of the gods/Demon Princes/Archdukes/etc have consorts and lovers, are any actually married? As in "husband and wife"?
I think that whole concept is alien and unsuited for the abyss. Marriage is about property rights and exclusive sexual relationships. Neither of which have any meaning in the Abyss, since almost nobody feels any commitment to past agreements when they no longer like them, and it always comes down to how much power you have to get away with whatever you want. It wouldn't make any difference if the word "married" were applied to two demons.

In Baator it probably would have a lot more meaning, though probably a rather twisted and weird one.

[Vedhin]

In Baator it probably would have a lot more meaning, though probably a rather twisted and weird one.

Actually, Asmodeus was happily married at one point. Now he's a widower, and Levistus cools his heels in an iceberg.

[enderlord99]

Actually, Asmodeus was happily married at one point. Now he's a widower, and Levistus cools his heels in an iceberg.

Speaking of which: Why didn't Asmo try using this (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/revive-outsider--4107/)? I mean, a 5,000 GP diamond isn't pocket change for him: it's pocket lint! And the only other material component is some of his literal pocket lint!

[afroakuma]

Speaking of which: Why didn't Asmo try using this (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/revive-outsider--4107/)? I mean, a 5,000 GP diamond isn't pocket change for him: it's pocket lint! And the only other material component is some of his literal pocket lint!

Some forms of killing prevent conventional methods of revival. Even a wish will not bring back Bensozia.

[Mystify]

Some forms of killing prevent conventional methods of revival. Even a wish will not bring back Bensozia.
Because plot.

[afroakuma]

Because plot.

Because on the Outer Planes most of the natives just pop back up on their own eventually, so higher-level kill methods need to exist if you want to actually dispose of anyone. These aren't fluff, they exist in the rules and can be used by players just as easily as NPCs.

[Coidzor]

Is there any way to turn a demon into an undead creature (besides polymorphing and other form-changing magic)?

Isn't there a chance they leave behind a corpse rather than always exploding when killed or was that Devils that have a chance to leave a corpse? Necromancy is typically have corpse will travel, isn't it? Aside from the specific restrictions of the various kinds of undead anyway...


Edit: On the subject of Demons ending the Blood War, what would it take to get those demons that only exist to find other demons and press them into the Blood War to stop doing so?

[Yora]

There is an undead demon in the 3rd Edition Fiend Folio. Not sure if it is undead type or outsider type.

[Tryxx]

Is it possible to point to which Crystal Spheres on the flowchart the various races in Realmspace immigrated from during the first flowering?

[enderlord99]

Some forms of killing prevent conventional methods of revival.

What about unconventional ones?

I mean, sure, he'd probably get a quarut after him, but that doesn't mean much, to him...

...He already tried that, didn't he?

EDIT: By "that" I mean "time travel." I mean, the illithids prove it to be possible...

[Vedhin]

What about unconventional ones?

I mean, sure, he'd probably get a quarut after him, but that doesn't mean much, to him...

...He already tried that, didn't he?

I'd think that he'd have tried everything short of the Words of Creation Once Spoken (or whatever the name of what Vecna used to bust into Sigil was.), and those too if he could find them. The term "Words of Creation Once Spoken" is probably the best thing to come from Die Vecna Die. It just sounds cool.

[ShadowFireLance]

How powerful is a fully restored Obox-Ob?

[afroakuma]

Isn't there a chance they leave behind a corpse rather than always exploding when killed or was that Devils that have a chance to leave a corpse? Necromancy is typically have corpse will travel, isn't it? Aside from the specific restrictions of the various kinds of undead anyway...

Necromancy can find a way to do just about anything with a dead thingy. Which reminds me, now that I'm done NaNoWriMo, I really need to resume the Vecna thing...

[QUOTE]Edit: On the subject of Demons ending the Blood War, what would it take to get those demons that only exist to find other demons and press them into the Blood War to stop doing so?

Stop the Blood War and they'll stop doing that. :smalltongue:


Is it possible to point to which Crystal Spheres on the flowchart the various races in Realmspace immigrated from during the first flowering?

Well. That is not an easy question to answer.

The various authors of Forgotten Realms (including Greenwood himself, the sellout) have been remarkably useless on this front, since earlier canon conflicts with later canon and the Grand History isn't very much help. That said, going by deep analysis on available materials, here's what I've got for you:

Nobody knows where the dragons came from. The elves (at least of the non-dark variety) appear to have emigrated via elven High Magic from Faeriespace. Dwarves seem to have come from a planar origin, so backtracing them to another sphere is impossible. Orcs arrived through portals built by the creator races, and again no definitive sphere is listed for them. Gnomes have no recorded history of arrival, and halflings supposedly arrived in ancient days but first appear in the histories alongside the genies who founded Calimport.


What about unconventional ones?

I mean, sure, he'd probably get a quarut after him, but that doesn't mean much, to him...

...He already tried that, didn't he?

I can't say definitively whether he would or not. Protecting his personal timeline from chronomancy is exceedingly important, after all, and Bensozia wouldn't want him to risk himself and their daughter for that.

Or maybe he did, and someone tried to take advantage of it, and a great and epic story was never told and has been carefully concealed.


How powerful is a fully restored Obox-Ob?

Oh, Demogorgon level easily and then some.

[Alleran]

Because plot.
Or he ganked her with something along the lines of Necrotic Termination:

"If the subject fails her saving throw, the cyst expands beyond control, killing the subject and digesting her soul. Raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection, wish, and miracle cannot return life to the subject once her soul is digested—she is gone forever."

Purely as a hypothetical, if Bensozia's soul had been hidden/transplanted/reincarnated into something else somewhere (or was the Prisoner?), would Asmodeus finding out lead him to immediately throw everything he has into getting her back? Or would he be slower and more patient/plotting, like he usually is?

(Basically, would something like that be likely to break his composure or get him to actually take risks to get her back.)

[afroakuma]

Purely as a hypothetical, if Bensozia's soul had been hidden/transplanted/reincarnated into something else somewhere (or was the Prisoner?), would Asmodeus finding out lead him to immediately throw everything he has into getting her back? Or would he be slower and more patient/plotting, like he usually is?

(Basically, would something like that be likely to break his composure or get him to actually take risks to get her back.)

The planes would shake with the Dark Lord's rage.

[Brookshw]

Speculation: is A seeking divinity as part of a plan to res her?

[afroakuma]

Speculation: is A seeking divinity as part of a plan to res her?

No. wordswordswords

[Lord_Gareth]

Has Lady Baalphegor been injured in living memory?

[afroakuma]

Has Lady Baalphegor been injured in living memory?

Well, I mean, she must have been at some point since there's a vial of her blood around, but that was probably self-inflicted.

[Yora]

Did Genasi appear in Planescape? I don't remember having seen them in any source older than the 3rd edition FRCS.

[enderlord99]

Well, I mean, she must have been at some point since there's a vial of her blood around, but that was probably self-inflicted.

[generic followup question] By which I mean "could you elaborate on that? Please do."

[afroakuma]

Did Genasi appear in Planescape? I don't remember having seen them in any source older than the 3rd edition FRCS.

They did! They just weren't tremendously important.


[generic followup question]

[generic followup murder]It's an artifact that controls a flock of specially trained erinyes. Details in the Savage Tide adventure path.

[enderlord99]

[generic followup murder]
[generic revelation that I'm a not-so-generic variety of lich]

[Tragak]

[generic revelation that I'm a not-so-generic variety of lich] … What.

[afroakuma]

[generic revelation that I'm a not-so-generic variety of lich]

Right, because I'd have trouble with undead. :smalltongue:

[False_Prophet]

Is there an explanation for how the "Great Mother" a Lawful Evil Deity, of
a usually Lawful Evil race came to inhabit a Layer ob the Abyss ?
Is that not pretty dangerous for the Demons in Planescape from a Metaphysical point, that it threatens the "Chaotic" fabric of that plane like the Formori did in Acheron ?

[Xuldarinar]

Where all can I find information on the Demiplane of Nightmares?

I've noticed, while Diaboli are from the Demiplane of Nightmares, the summary for them at the very beginning of Chapter one of the Dragon Magazine Compendium states they are natives of the Plane of Shadow, is this a typo or is there actually something to this?

Given that Diaboli are described as their home's equivalent of humans, would it be fair to say there are likely hybrids, similar to half-elves and half-orcs, of diabolus blood? Is there anything official for this? Are there any official races that could reflect the unlikely hybrid or distant decedent of a diabolus and a human?

On a dramatically different note, do you know of any deities that wouldn't be opposed to the practice of binding (i.e. the focus of the Binder class), or even promote it?

Where all are vestiges known to, or at least could, reside? I know of the Shattered Night but where else? For instance, perhaps Zceryll and Otiax reside past the Ultimon of the Far-realm?

[RúsëaMenci]

Is there an explanation for how the "Great Mother" a Lawful Evil Deity, of
a usually Lawful Evil race came to inhabit a Layer ob the Abyss ?
Is that not pretty dangerous for the Demons in Planescape from a Metaphysical point, that it threatens the "Chaotic" fabric of that plane like the Formori did in Acheron ?
One deity of an opposing alignment isn’t going to threaten anything. Divine Realms are rather small (read: finite) relative to the total size of an Abyssal layer (read: infinite), much less the entire Abyss. It’s more accurate that such positions tend to be somewhat uncomfortable/dangerous for the gods in question, as I understand things.


Where all are vestiges known to, or at least could, reside? I know of the Shattered Night but where else? For instance, perhaps Zceryll and Otiax reside past the Ultimon of the Far-realm?
I think by definition they do not reside anywhere because they literally don’t exist. Like, the Far Realm is a place, not in this multiverse but in another one. The Shattered Night is a place in this multiverse, though on the ragged edge of it (and those who are contacted there are not quite the same as vestiges though similar methods work and are therefore available to the binder class). Vestiges do not exist, and therefore are not in any place.

[afroakuma]

Is there an explanation for how the "Great Mother" a Lawful Evil Deity, of
a usually Lawful Evil race came to inhabit a Layer ob the Abyss ?

At at least one point she was chaotic evil. Might still be. Hard to say for sure with such an alien mindset.


Is that not pretty dangerous for the Demons in Planescape from a Metaphysical point, that it threatens the "Chaotic" fabric of that plane like the Formori did in Acheron ?

That was formians in Arcadia, and no, if there's any plane that doesn't care it's the Abyss, which has theoretically infinite layers (certainly more than it needs). The presence of a single deity definitely isn't enough to tip the scales.


Where all can I find information on the Demiplane of Nightmares?

Ehh, there's not much to find. If you've seen diaboli in sources, that's basically your lot.


I've noticed, while Diaboli are from the Demiplane of Nightmares, the summary for them at the very beginning of Chapter one of the Dragon Magazine Compendium states they are natives of the Plane of Shadow, is this a typo or is there actually something to this?

Nope. They're from Nightmare, not Shadow. Mind you, some may have emigrated. I suspect that was an attempt to integrate them into the basic cosmology, as opposed to leaving them out in Mystaran weirdness.


Given that Diaboli are described as their home's equivalent of humans, would it be fair to say there are likely hybrids, similar to half-elves and half-orcs, of diabolus blood?

Not necessarily.


Is there anything official for this?

Nnnnnope.


Are there any official races that could reflect the unlikely hybrid or distant decedent of a diabolus and a human?

I'ma go with no.


On a dramatically different note, do you know of any deities that wouldn't be opposed to the practice of binding (i.e. the focus of the Binder class), or even promote it?

Oh definitely not. Zero. Nuh-uh. No.


Where all are vestiges known to, or at least could, reside?

They don't, that's the point. In the first post I note the "Near Realm," which is the reference I use to describe the existence zone of the vestiges. Ahazu is a special exception.

[CRtwenty]

I've got a few questions regarding the FR Deity Nobanion since one of my players decided to play a Paladin that worships him and I know next to nothing about him except what the FR Campaign setting book says (which is just his Domains, Portfolios, Holy Symbol, and Favored Weapon) and a little blurb I found on the FR wiki.

He's referred to as an interloper deity who just recently arrived on Toril. Do we know what world he originated from? Also he's listed as a demipower in the service of Silvanus, how did that occur? How would a typical worshiper of him act?

[Xuldarinar]

Oh definitely not. Zero. Nuh-uh. No.


Fair enough. I figured no living deity would actually support such a practice but I thought I would ask.

I would say Tenebrous is an exception, but…

On another note, the variant: Heterodoxy and Heresy, implies that some deities find it more or less acceptable than others. That or they are missing two comas.

The actual sentence saying: "Deities who despise vestiges and binders might frown upon a follower consorting with binders or for taking up pact magic." as opposed to saying: "Deities, who despise vestiges and binders, might frown upon a follower consorting with binders or for taking up pact magic."

[False_Prophet]

At at least one point she was chaotic evil. Might still be. Hard to say for sure with such an alien mindset.


Do you mean she was at one point CE in another Edition of the Setting ( I have only looked up Lords of Madness about her Aligment sofar, so it might be just one writer messing it up because the Beholder are LE), or that she actually switched Aligment "In-Setting" at some point ? LoM says she is erronously believed to be insane by her Cultists could that, explicitly wrong, believe cause a Deity to inhabit a "unnatural" Habitat like that ?
Why would the Demons allow a Lawful Deity to inhabit the apparently entire, or at least large Part of the, 6th Plane considering the Blood War against LE Fiends ? Don't they care, or are they to weak to do anything about it ?

[Yora]

Beholders have been lawful at least since AD&D 1st Edition.

[enderlord99]

Oh definitely not. Zero. Nuh-uh. No.

...So, Vecna is an even bigger hypocrite than I thought?

[Tragak]

...So, Vecna is an even bigger hypocrite than I thought? When in doubt, yes :smallwink:

[RúsëaMenci]

Why would the Demons allow a Lawful Deity to inhabit the apparently entire, or at least large Part of the, 6th Plane considering the Blood War against LE Fiends ? Don't they care, or are they to weak to do anything about it ?
Why should they care? She's LE, but she's not a devil or in any way affiliated with devils, so she isn't on the other side, and deities living in cross-aligned planes isn't all that uncommon, and is really in no way threatening to the stability of a plane, least of all the Abyss.

[afroakuma]

I've got a few questions regarding the FR Deity Nobanion since one of my players decided to play a Paladin that worships him and I know next to nothing about him except what the FR Campaign setting book says (which is just his Domains, Portfolios, Holy Symbol, and Favored Weapon) and a little blurb I found on the FR wiki.

He's referred to as an interloper deity who just recently arrived on Toril. Do we know what world he originated from?

Narnia. No, that's not a joke.


Also he's listed as a demipower in the service of Silvanus, how did that occur?

Well, Silvanus must have agreed to serve as his patron. Not surprising for the old god of the woodlands.


How would a typical worshiper of him act?

Ehh, take this (http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/humangods/Nobanion.htm) and begone.


On another note, the variant: Heterodoxy and Heresy, implies that some deities find it more or less acceptable than others. That or they are missing two comas.

No no no. Deities who know about it despise it. Deities who don't, don't. It's a pretty obscure thing.


Do you mean she was at one point CE in another Edition of the Setting

Yep.


or that she actually switched Aligment "In-Setting" at some point ? LoM says she is erronously believed to be insane by her Cultists could that, explicitly wrong, believe cause a Deity to inhabit a "unnatural" Habitat like that ?

Well I don't understand your phrasing, but gods decide where their realm shall lie.


Why would the Demons allow a Lawful Deity

They don't really get a say. As I said not so long ago in this thread (or maybe the last one), while the natives have all sorts of ways to antagonize a deity they dislike, it's not possible to force them out. An evil deity could set up shop on Mount Celestia and erect a Tower of Butts that just moons everyone all day every day in every way and the celestials wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.


considering the Blood War against LE Fiends ?

Oh is that your issue? The blood war isn't between LE and CE, it's between Hell and the Abyss. The Great Mother plays no role in the war, so her presence has no relevance to it.


...So, Vecna is an even bigger hypocrite than I thought?

Well, do remember that as I said he doesn't know that he's a binder. Was. Was a binder. He doesn't know that.

[Alleran]

An evil deity could set up shop on Mount Celestia and erect a Tower of Butts that just moons everyone all day every day in every way and the celestials wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.
Is it weird that I would be greatly amused to see this happen?

More seriously, the plane itself doesn't attempt to reject the sudden influence of evil on it (even if it isn't the entire layer) by way of a divine realm? I recall that there's at least one Abyssal Layer (the one that Adimarchus rules?) that was formed from part of a layer jettisoned from Mount Celestia because it was corrupted.

[afroakuma]

More seriously, the plane itself doesn't attempt to reject the sudden influence of evil on it (even if it isn't the entire layer) by way of a divine realm? I recall that there's at least one Abyssal Layer (the one that Adimarchus rules?) that was formed from part of a layer jettisoned from Mount Celestia because it was corrupted.

Oh the plane doesn't like it, but a divine realm stays anchored where it is. It would take non-divine corruption to get sloughed off.

[Vedhin]

How do the Beastlands and Gehenna embody Good with Chaotic leanings and Evil with Lawful leanings, respectively? They just don't really seem to be aligned, other than their inhabitants.

[Tragak]

How do the Beastlands and Gehenna embody Good with Chaotic leanings and Evil with Lawful leanings, respectively? They just don't really seem to be aligned, other than their inhabitants.

Beastlands: Simplicity. They don't care about The Establishment enough to spend the effort supporting it (such as Mount Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium) OR dismantling it (such as Arborea), so their perfect world has no establishment to fight for or against. Showing kindness and charity to the people you meet is all that matters, not worrying about being told how to do it.

Gehenna: Challenge. They don't care about The Establishment's right to exist for it's own sake (such as Acheron or Baator), they just find joining criminal syndicates to be more stable than acting independently. They gladly support institutions that tear people down rather than building them up, believing that surely they themselves will not be punished for failing a system that looks for excuses to punish everybody it sees.

As they convinced themselves that climbing the ranks of somebody else's criminal empire would be safer for them than simply staying where they are would be, so too is their afterlife an infinite volcanic wasteland where a second of hesitation would send them falling miles into rivers of lava, depending on visiting Devils to build (temporary) cities of safety for them instead of building cities for themselves.

[Vedhin]

I'm more asking why an untamed wilderness represents NG (C), and 4 volcanoes floating in space represents NE (L).

[RúsëaMenci]

Then you are asking the wrong question. A plane’s inhabitants count at least as much as its geological features, and in the case of exemplars, typically far more. A plane is not just rocks, trees, rivers, and lava.

[Tragak]

I'm more asking why an untamed wilderness represents NG (C), and 4 volcanoes floating in space represents NE (L). In the Beastlands, Civilization never developed because it never needed to, everybody took care of each other well enough without it.

In Gehenna, the destruction and violence of pure evil is gathered into something resembling structure, not not structured into anything more than a big pile of destruction.

[Vedhin]

Then you are asking the wrong question. A plane’s inhabitants count at least as much as its geological features, and in the case of exemplars, typically far more. A plane is not just rocks, trees, rivers, and lava.

Well, most of the Outer Planes do have some relation between alignment and geography/environment.



Ysgard seems to be about personal growth-- changing yourself for the better. It's about overcoming challenges, so Norse mythology really seems to be a good backdrop.


Hmm, an Everchanging Chaos representing Chaos. This one is easy.


It's Chaos mixed with Evil. A lightless, endless maze of caverns with a howling wind that drives you mad seems like a good way to express change for the worse.


It's infinite, but all the layers tend to cause needless suffering somehow.

Carceri operates on a layer-by-layer basis. But each layer tends to reflect what got the inhabitants sent there. Carceri is a plane of traitors, and all the layers can sucker-punch you with their hazards.

The Neutral Evil is all about apathy and despair. The Greek underworld worked the same basic way.

The Nine Hells operate on a layer-by-layer basis. For example, Dis is about tyranny, and is a giant city ruled by a tyrant.

Acheron is Lawful with some Evil. It embodies many of the more negative aspects of Law, but the simple uncaring grinding of the cubes illustrates Law that serves no real purpose. Thuldanin also shows being weighed down by tradition.

Giant clockwork. This is also easy.

Arcadia is ordered nature. In Arcadia, everything plays its part, and nature follows along.

The Seven Mounting Heavens are about following Law and Good on a path to self improvement. The seven layers are structured as a mountain, illustrating the movement upward.

Bytopia is about things like hard work. In Bytopia, you reap what you sow. Dothion has stable villages, and Shurrok has risky adventures, but they both give you what you earned.

Elysium is ultimately just better. Here, the environment is idealized and purified, with the dislikable removed.

If Elysium is better, then Arborea is more. It's a plain about living, enjoying what is. Nature runs wild in Arborea, but in ways that provide more moving and emotional experiences.

[afroakuma]

How do the Beastlands and Gehenna embody Good with Chaotic leanings and Evil with Lawful leanings, respectively? They just don't really seem to be aligned, other than their inhabitants.

The Beastlands is free and content. Everyone's allowed to do their own thing within the law of the jungle, and it's fair and healthy and otherwise just quite nice about you being there. It exalts life in all natural forms and provides a loosely-defined place for everyone. It's free and wild, but not truly lawless.

Gehenna is just plain awful. It hates you, it excludes you, it doesn't have enough room and is basically pleased about that. The plane has rules but no order and has predetermined that you, personally, deserve an eternity of misery. Sadistic in the extreme, the law of the land is that the land is the law.

[Vedhin]

Gehenna is just plain awful. It hates you, it excludes you, it doesn't have enough room and is basically pleased about that. The plane has rules but no order and has predetermined that you, personally, deserve an eternity of misery. Sadistic in the extreme, the law of the land is that the land is the law.

Man, it's amazing how many of the Lower Planes sound like Athas, but more hospitable.

[afroakuma]

Man, it's amazing how many of the Lower Planes sound like Athas, but more hospitable.

That's why I always joke about people from Athas not understanding the concept of a Lower Plane.

[enderlord99]

That's why I always joke about people from Athas not understanding the concept of a Lower Plane.

The only place lower than Athas is Ravenloft, and even that's debatable.

Is the above statement correct?

[Vedhin]

That's why I always joke about people from Athas not understanding the concept of a Lower Plane.

I can just see some Athasian being told he wound up in a Lower Plane. "Whadda' ya mean eternal torment? It's like home, but cooler and with water!"


The only place lower than Athas is Ravenloft, and even that's debatable.

Is the above statement correct?

I'd prefer to live to in Ravenloft myself.

[afroakuma]

The only place lower than Athas is Ravenloft, and even that's debatable.

Is the above statement correct?

Nope. Ravenloft is generally much more survivable.


I can just see some Athasian being told he wound up in a Lower Plane. "Whadda' ya mean eternal torment? It's like home, but cooler and with water!"

That was basically the joke, yes.

[enderlord99]

To an Athasian, Stygia probably sounds like the best (im)possible place: It's far from hot (VERY far from hot), there's lots of water (the River Styx pretty much floods the place), and, if something bad does happen, it's easy to forget (the River Styx again).

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
What benefits do you get besides the benefits? :smallconfused: You're a strange monkey.
<snip>


The BOVD rules are variant rules after all. The fluff of the rest of the game assumes they don't exist so there must be other material on the subject.

Meph was friends with Asmodeus (as opposed to just allies)?

If an obyrith ascended to divinity, would they lose their Form of Madness? If so, why?

Could a god have incarnum in its portfolio? If so, why has no god decided to add it on (seems like an untapped well of worshippers...)? Not enough meldshapers inclined to worship on the planes?

I remember reading somewhere that the title of Oinoloth amplifies the nature of the being holding it. Is this correct?


I think that whole concept is alien and unsuited for the abyss. Marriage is about property rights and exclusive sexual relationships. Neither of which have any meaning in the Abyss, since almost nobody feels any commitment to past agreements when they no longer like them, and it always comes down to how much power you have to get away with whatever you want. It wouldn't make any difference if the word "married" were applied to two demons.

In Baator it probably would have a lot more meaning, though probably a rather twisted and weird one.

Makes sense.

Man now I want to see a Baatezu marriage ceremony so bad :smallmad:.



<snip>
Ehh, take this (http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/humangods/Nobanion.htm) and begone.

Heh heh.



No no no. Deities who know about it despise it. Deities who don't, don't. It's a pretty obscure thing.
<snip>

If knowledge of binding did become widespread, are there any gods that wouldn't despise it? If not, that seems pretty strange what with the crazy variety in gods out in the Wheel :smallconfused:. Is there anything stopping a Binder from ascending to godhood like anyone else and continuing to bind afterwards?



Well, do remember that as I said he doesn't know that he's a binder. Was. Was a binder. He doesn't know that.

So he lost his ability to bind? Why and when? How would he react if he found out he had been a binder? Yes I know these questions deal with an Afro-theory and are not actually canon. I'm not losing sight of the big picture.

[afroakuma]

T-

You again. :smallannoyed:


The BOVD rules are variant rules after all. The fluff of the rest of the game assumes they don't exist so there must be other material on the subject.

You'd think that. You'd be wrong.


Meph was friends with Asmodeus (as opposed to just allies)?

Ehh, as friendly as any two pompous lawful warrior angel crusaders can be. I'm using "friends" loosely here.


If an obyrith ascended to divinity, would they lose their Form of Madness? If so, why?

Gods technically don't have any really fixed form, so that's why. Also it would probably choose a scarier default form because lulz. That said, no reason it couldn't choose to appear in obyrith form, in which it would have a Form of Madness provided it replicated the form faithfully enough.


Could a god have incarnum in its portfolio?

Probably no. I doubt there's a hard prohibition on it but it still edges a bit too close to the whole preincarnate souls thing that got Desayeus ganked. It's also the kind of thing that most worlds just couldn't have a god of anyway; logical limits on portfolios and all. We've been over that.


I remember reading somewhere that the title of Oinoloth amplifies the nature of the being holding it. Is this correct?

Ehh, there are some perks. Doubt they're worth the tradeoff of having half your skin slough off and getting infected with noxious diseases and parasites, but hey, who am I to say?


If knowledge of binding did become widespread

No.


are there any gods that wouldn't despise it?

I refuse to entertain any more questions on this topic. I'm done. Gods + binding = no.


Is there anything stopping a Binder from ascending to godhood like anyone else and continuing to bind afterwards?

Every power in the multiverse would gang up on you and kill you.

Well not every power but you get the gist. No god would do it even if it weren't for that, but you'd basically be inviting every other power to destroy you immediately.

Now that's enough barking up that tree. It's like the Far Realm gods questions all over again.

[CRtwenty]

Narnia. No, that's not a joke.

Oh god... it all makes so much sense now. :smalleek:

New question. I remember reading somewhere that the Marid's are pretty insane. Is this true? If so is there a particular reason for it?

Another. The Baatezu have a very strict policy of promotion and demotion, which fits their Lawful nature. I'd assume the other Lawful Exemplars do as well. But what about the Chaotic ones? Advancing in forms is probably done through deeds, but can they be demoted?

[Eldest]

Oh god... it all makes so much sense now. :smalleek:

New question. I remember reading somewhere that the Marid's are pretty insane. Is this true? If so is there a particular reason for it?

Another. The Baatezu have a very strict policy of promotion and demotion, which fits their Lawful nature. I'd assume the other Lawful Exemplars do as well. But what about the Chaotic ones? Advancing in forms is probably done through deeds, but can they be demoted?

Actually, can the Chaotic Exemplars advance in form? I'd think it'd be more in keeping with my understanding of Chaos that they don't.

[afroakuma]

Oh god... it all makes so much sense now. :smalleek:

No seriously that's the actual answer. :smalltongue:


New question. I remember reading somewhere that the Marid's are pretty insane. Is this true?

No, they're just strange. Chaotic neutral, you know.


The Baatezu have a very strict policy of promotion and demotion, which fits their Lawful nature. I'd assume the other Lawful Exemplars do as well. But what about the Chaotic ones? Advancing in forms is probably done through deeds, but can they be demoted?

Modrons have an extremely straightforward promotion schedule. Archons have a less fixed progression.

Slaad have a fairly predictable-ish progression, but then again, they're 1) not pure chaos thanks to the Spawning Stone and 2) capable of going off the rails at pretty much any time.

Eladrins don't promote as far as is known, and they prefer to keep their ways mysterious.

Which brings us to the tanar'ri. Tanar'ri can advance and devolve and do so pretty frequently over the course of their existences. A tanar'ri doesn't advance along a structure or progression; advancement is purely a matter of power and demonstrating that you're the one who has it. A tanar'ri basically grows in power by convincing the Abyss itself that it's a bigger deal than its current status would suggest. They also advance with power gifted from greater demons who want mighty underlings, or through devouring souls and sucking the power from them. So yes, tanar'ri advance (and fall back) rather often.


Actually, can the Chaotic Exemplars advance in form? I'd think it'd be more in keeping with my understanding of Chaos that they don't.

True slaad wouldn't advance in "form," per se, since the concept would be alien to them. Eladrins, as I mentioned, don't appear to, being very mysterious and all. Tanar'ri do, but that's the nature of the beast.

[Cirrylius]

Man now I want to see a Baatezu marriage ceremony so bad :smallmad:.

That's an interesting idea. Would the Baatezu hierarchy support marriage for any devil but a Unique? Devils would understand the benefits of partnership (even if they only adhere to it until they no longer stand to gain something), provided they have some means of trusting their S.O. , but I feel like the Eight and the Nine would discourage the idea just to avoid the possibility of divided loyalties.

Also, insert desultory "marriage=living hell" witticism here.

[Xuldarinar]

Is it possible that there are demi-planes, or that one could create a demiplane, outside the great wheel? Would there be any benefits or problems that would come with such a thing?

What all is/would be universally despised by deities?

Is "the Great Unknown" an actual entity within D&D or is it just something that the Athar came up with?

What would happen if the blood war ended? Specifically, if the forces of the Abyss wiped out Baator, or visa versa. Which is more likely and what would follow on the planar level?

If I am not mistaken, given the appropriate conditions a portion of one plane can move to another. What would have to happen for a portion of a plane, if not the entirety of a plane, to be removed from the great wheel itself and placed, for instance, in the far-realm? What would the consequences of such a thing be? Could the opposite occur?

An entirely unlikely and hypothetical situation: Lets say everyone in the great wheel has their alignment suddenly flipped to it's opposite. Good to evil, evil to good, law to chaos, and chaos to law, only neutral remaining the same. What would happen?

[Cirrylius]

Lets say everyone in the great wheel has their alignment suddenly flipped to it's opposite. Good to evil, evil to good, law to chaos, and chaos to law, only neutral remaining the same. What would happen?
The Rilmani pinch the bridge of their collective nose and utter a barely-audible groan.

(...also, the total disorganization of almost every outer-planar power structure and the wholesale rejection/relocation of every exemplar from their home plane, the destruction or subjucation of half the petitioners in existence, and Sigil three deep in refugees.)

[CRtwenty]

Is it possible that there are demi-planes, or that one could create a demiplane, outside the great wheel? Would there be any benefits or problems that would come with such a thing?

Benefits? You're pretty much outside the scope of every thing that inhabits the Great Wheel. No Deities, Exemplars, or whatnot to bug you. Downside? You're in the Far Realm which has much much worse things to bug you with.


What all is/would be universally despised by deities?
Anything that keeps faith from reaching them. As well as messing with preincarnate souls. They don't like people getting power from entities that aren't deities as well (IE: Vestiges)


What would happen if the blood war ended? Specifically, if the forces of the Abyss wiped out Baator, or visa versa. Which is more likely and what would follow on the planar level?

It's impossible for either side to completely obliterate the other. But a cease of hostilities would likely cause a new war between the Upper and Lower Planes.


If I am not mistaken, given the appropriate conditions a portion of one plane can move to another. What would have to happen for a portion of a plane, if not the entirety of a plane, to be removed from the great wheel itself and placed, for instance, in the far-realm? What would the consequences of such a thing be?

Very, very powerful and forbidden magic. Anybody there would be in for a bad time and would quickly be transformed into something barely recognizable as originating in the Great Wheel. The hole left behind would be filled eventually, but would be a very dangerous place for a long time.


Could the opposite occur?
Yes, with similar results for whatever entered the wheel from the Far Realm, along with creating a huge source of corruption that pretty much everybody aware of would try to expunge.


An entirely unlikely and hypothetical situation: Lets say everyone in the great wheel has their alignment suddenly flipped to it's opposite. Good to evil, evil to good, law to chaos, and chaos to law, only neutral remaining the same. What would happen?

Everybody would grow goatees.

[Eldan]

Man now I want to see a Baatezu marriage ceremony so bad :smallmad:.

I'm imagining it a bit like the Trader marriage in Robin Hobb's Dragon Keeper. The families of the two intended write a long contract together, detailing who pays for which parts of the feast and which parts of the household, what the duties of husband and wife are, who inherits what when either or both of them die, how they divide their property and, if one or both should not be able to fulfill their duties or commits some other kind of offence, under which conditions the marriage can be annulled and what penalties must be paid.
Then, the two newlyweds read the contract aloud together to all the guests, everyone can comment on it and the newlyweds and the parents sign it.
There were such romantic passages as "if my husband is unfaithful, I may void this contract at any time and he has to pay a stipend to me and my children, as well us buy us another house" or "if my wife is unfaithful, I may void this contract, disinherit any children if I have evidence to doubt their paternity and send her back to live with her parents".

Very pragmatic. In Baator, there would just be a lot less (non-enforced) cheering and a lot more fine print.

[Brookshw]

Man, it's amazing how many of the Lower Planes sound like Athas, but more hospitable.

Thank you, that did make me laugh out loud.

[afroakuma]

Well I see that CRTwenty is once again doing my job, for some value of "doing." :smallsigh:

Fine, I'm not going to bother. Let me know if you actually want my answers. I'm going to be over here waiting for questions I don't have to argue about.

[Vedhin]

Well I see that CRTwenty is once again doing my job, for some value of "doing." :smallsigh:

Fine, I'm not going to bother. Let me know if you actually want my answers. I'm going to be over here waiting for questions I don't have to argue about.

What, in general, causes the Outer Planes to have layers? Are there philosophical differences they represent?

[RúsëaMenci]

Well, I’m interested, in-so-far as I have some doubts about some of the things CRtwenty is saying, but in particular:

CRtwenty seems to take “outside the multiverse” as being equal to “the Far Plane.” While the Far Plane is outside the multiverse, it strikes me as unlikely that it is the only place that is (even if it is the only such place canonically described). Am I right here? Or does leaving the multiverse automatically mean going to the Far Plane?

[Brookshw]

Well I see that CRTwenty is once again doing my job, for some value of "doing." :smallsigh:

Fine, I'm not going to bother. Let me know if you actually want my answers. I'm going to be over here waiting for questions I don't have to argue about.

Personally I'd prefer the Afro answer if you don't mind.

[afroakuma]

What, in general, causes the Outer Planes to have layers? Are there philosophical differences they represent?

That's the general line of thinking, yes. Goes beyond just that, though. Good planes have fewer layers generally than evil planes, and extreme planes have more layers (generally) than monopolar planes.


CRtwenty seems to take “outside the multiverse” as being equal to “the Far Plane.”

Which is incorrect.


While the Far Plane is outside the multiverse

Again, to use an analogy, if the Outer Planes are a box of donuts, the Far Realm is the cosmological spin constant of the Andromeda Galaxy. There is zero context.


Am I right here? Or does leaving the multiverse automatically mean going to the Far Plane?

It does not. There are many half-realities and extraplanar phenomena, even before considering alternate multiverses. The Far Realm is the extreme of all extremes; beyond the gates of the collective subconscious, both before and after time in any form, across a vast gulf of possibility and impossibility. By definition it both should not be and is not.

[123456789blaaa]

You again. :smallannoyed:
<snip>


Hey c'mon, I do try my best to predict in advance which questions will annoy you. I don't make any kind of fuss if you choose not to answer as well. Is it really so annoying to just see the questions?

What is Iuz's relationship to his father? Like, are they allies or enemies or ambivalent towards each other? Something else?

Previously you said:



What would happen to a race if their racial god (Corellan, Gruumsh, etc) were to suddenly die?

Some of them could be saved by other deities capable of emulating the required parameters, to some extent - Paladine, Eldath or Ehlonna, for instance - but they would still change. In the case of a race like the elves or the orcs, they have other racial deities who would be able to protect components of the race. Nonetheless, it would cause a great fracturing, a loss of collective identity, and very likely an opportunity for that race's foes to commit genocide. Shattered, divided and reduced to shades of what they once were, the race would lose the very heart of its essence.

Now, for a race with only the one god, if it's actually a racial deity rather than merely a patron... oh that's a horrific thing indeed.


Does this still apply if the racial deity/deities die out due to gradual loss of worship? Like, the draconic deities are losing worship. If enough beings voluntarily stop worshipping them and they slowly starve to death...?

What happens if the created race of the racial deity (aboleths for the Blood Queen, etc) stops worshipping it but other races do keep worshipping? Like, what if the aboleths stopped worshipping the Blood Queen, but a bunch of humans kept worshipping her and she didn't starve? Does she stop being a god of aboleths?

The Greywiki page on Pandemonium (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pandemonium)says:


The River Styx has its headwaters in Pandemonium, flowing from the blood, venom, suffering, and melting ice of the realm of Winter's Hall in trickles and streams until at last it becomes the dark artery of the Lower Planes.

Is this correct? If so, did the deity that created Winter's Hall also create the Styx?

Gargauths FR Wiki page (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gargauth)says:


Holy Days

The Unveiling

This occurred each Midwinter night. This horrific ceremony, believed to involve many gruesome sacrifices, heralded the imminent time when Gargauth would seize Faerûn as his unholy kingdom and transport it to Baator to form the Tenth Pit of Hell.[citation needed]

Does Gargauth actually want to do this or is this made up?

Page 47 of On Hallowed Ground says:


Among this faction, the most popular Powers are Cyric, Tharzidun, and Dionysus-a nod to the Rule of Threes. The trio embodies different aspect of madness, and the Bleakers embrace barminess in all its forms.

Could you expand on the bolded part?

[Xuldarinar]

Well I see that CRTwenty is once again doing my job, for some value of "doing." :smallsigh:

Fine, I'm not going to bother. Let me know if you actually want my answers. I'm going to be over here waiting for questions I don't have to argue about.

Even if my questions are answered by someone else, nothing against those who have answered, but I still feel your answers hold more water.

[afroakuma]

Hey c'mon, I do try my best to predict in advance which questions will annoy you. I don't make any kind of fuss if you choose not to answer as well. Is it really so annoying to just see the questions?

What's an afroakuma thread without at least a little bit of roiling preemptive hate? Comes with the badge and club membership, pal. Just ask Gareth. I often shoot black lightning at him as a response to a simple salutation. It's often deserved. :smalltongue:


What is Iuz's relationship to his father? Like, are they allies or enemies or ambivalent towards each other? Something else?

Basically nonexistent.


Does this still apply if the racial deity/deities die out due to gradual loss of worship? Like, the draconic deities are losing worship. If enough beings voluntarily stop worshipping them and they slowly starve to death...?

Ehh, racial deities are partially protected from that, since while their race thrives, they're still anchored. Nonetheless, it would certainly weaken them.


What happens if the created race of the racial deity (aboleths for the Blood Queen, etc) stops worshipping it but other races do keep worshipping? Like, what if the aboleths stopped worshipping the Blood Queen, but a bunch of humans kept worshipping her and she didn't starve? Does she stop being a god of aboleths?

No, but she'd start changing to accommodate the beliefs of her followers if they were significant enough. See above.


Is this correct? If so, did the deity that created Winter's Hall also create the Styx?

Yes, no. The realm was created on the site.


Does Gargauth actually want to do this or is this made up?

That does seem to be the general slant, yes.


Could you expand on the bolded part?

Don't see what needs expansion, really. Dionysus represents a different kind of madness than Cyric, who represents a different kind of madness than Tharizdun. Still looks like the author of that bit just rolled the dice and selected three deities listing "madness" as a portfolio, since Tharizdun is a really bizarre inclusion there.

[Clistenes]

Ehh, racial deities are partially protected from that, since while their race thrives, they're still anchored. Nonetheless, it would certainly weaken them.

Mmmm...when Tiamat and Bahamut offed each other and lost their divinity, they were reborn as Archfiend and Celestial Paragon instead of just disappearing or becoming giant statues floating in the Astral...I wonder if there are more examples like those.

[enderlord99]

WTharizdun is a really bizarre inclusion there.

We're talking about a group called "the Bleakers," right? That sounds fairly omnicidal to me...

Also: what's with the "W"?

[ShadowFireLance]

AH HA.

What being/deity/Anything else, is most heavily detailed in all your reading?

[Vedhin]

AH HA.

What being/deity/Anything else, is most heavily detailed in all your reading?

The PC. There's all this info on their options, and how things act towards them, and how the environment affects them. Ask a foolish question, get a foolish answer.

[afroakuma]

Mmmm...when Tiamat and Bahamut offed each other and lost their divinity

Well that doesn't sound like a thing that ever happened.


We're talking about a group called "the Bleakers," right? That sounds fairly omnicidal to me...

They're sort of lazy about that, though. And Tharizdun's particular brand of bleak doesn't line up with theirs so much.


Also: what's with the "W"?

Seeing as how it's not in my unedited post? You did that.


AH HA.

Ah ha indeed.


What being/deity/Anything else, is most heavily detailed in all your reading?

No idea. Boy that was quick. I love superlatives. I love ignoring them.

[Lord_Gareth]

What would the fallout be for Drow society if one of Lolth's children (but especially Eilistraee (argh spelling) or one of the males) succeeded in murdering her? How would elven society react to the true and final death of elven destiny?

[Clistenes]

Well that doesn't sound like a thing that ever happened.

It happened at least in the Forgotten Realms setting. Bahamut recovered his divinity helping Gareth Dragonsbane, which made him popular among mortals, giving him the worship he needed. Tiamat got stuck as a Baator gatekeeper until she gobbled Tchazzar, becoming a deity yet again.

I guess all that could be not part of Planescape's canon.

[Larkas]

Again, to use an analogy, if the Outer Planes are a box of donuts, the Far Realm is the cosmological spin constant of the Andromeda Galaxy. There is zero context.

If the reality is decidedly bidimensional, the Far Realm is the z axis.

Is this affirmative correct or is it too simplistic?

[Vedhin]

If the reality is decidedly bidimensional, the Far Realm is the z axis.

Is this affirmative correct or is it too simplistic?

If reality is bidimensional, the Far Realm is a unicycling rhinoceros juggling live pebbles while snorkeling in space.

There is no overlap between the two. My way of explaining it: The multiverse holds what is, other realities what isn't, and the Far Realm what cannot be.

[Xuldarinar]

If the reality is decidedly bidimensional, the Far Realm is the z axis.

Is this affirmative correct or is it too simplistic?

Here is my take:

Lets say all realities are on a graph.

The great wheel we all know and love is everywhere on the X-axis and the Y-axis at Z=0. It's prime material plane being at (0,0,0).
Other settings, such as eberron, occupy different locations along the Z-axis.

The Far-Realm exists at anywhere higher than א or lower than -א on any axis.

[afroakuma]

What would the fallout be for Drow society if one of Lolth's children (but especially Eilistraee (argh spelling)

Funny, that's the first time I've ever seen you get it right.


or one of the males) succeeded in murdering her?

Well, the good drow would come out of the woodwork, but society would splinter heavily evilsided as the siblings rose up to fill that terrible void.


How would elven society react to the true and final death of elven destiny?

Don't know if that would be the case if Eilistraee or Vhaeraun landed the deathblow; as Corellon's children either of them might be able to annex their mother's role. Might be able to.

If it were gone? Well, the fading would probably accelerate and there'd be more tension for finding the Misty Isle, but that's about it, as far as I can think.


It happened at least in the Forgotten Realms setting.

Mmmsorta but no. It was limited to their presence in that sphere. The two gods were never actually reduced or otherwise injured outside of their roles in Realmspace; didn't impact them at all elsewhere.


I guess all that could be not part of Planescape's canon.

Zzzzzero.

[CRtwenty]

If reality is bidimensional, the Far Realm is a unicycling rhinoceros juggling live pebbles while snorkeling in space.

There is no overlap between the two. My way of explaining it: The multiverse holds what is, other realities what isn't, and the Far Realm what cannot be.

My interpretation has always been more like. The Great Wheel is an Onion, with the Prime as the Core, and the Inner Planes and Outer Planes as layers surrounding it with the Transitive Planes in between. In this example the Far Realm would be everything else that exists outside of that Onion. All residents of the Wheel have done so far is poke a hole in the outer skin of their Onion and exposed themselves to the atmosphere beyond.


Well I see that CRTwenty is once again doing my job, for some value of "doing." :smallsigh:

Hey now, having my ideas shot down in flames is the best way I learn. And some questions just beg for me to try and answer them. :smallwink:

However I'll try to tone it down.

Here's a question though. Do alternate primes accessed via the Plane of Shadow share the same outer planes?

[Forrestfire]

Out of curiosity, is there a point in time you can go back to where there's nothing there? Or maybe just the Astral Plane? Or something?

The Aboleths remember a time before gods, but is there a time before planes?

If not, what is someone likely to run into if they go back, say, googol (or some other ridiculous number) years?

[Alleran]

Mmmsorta but no. It was limited to their presence in that sphere. The two gods were never actually reduced or otherwise injured outside of their roles in Realmspace; didn't impact them at all elsewhere.
How do you envision that actually happening? My take:

*Bahamut and Tiamat kill each other and are reduced to celestial paragons in Realmspace*
*Gilligan cut to the Outer Planes where they're still gods*
Bahamut & Tiamat: Well, ****.

[Werephilosopher]

Might be enough to bump up a divine rank or two, but most gods don't bother keeping score like that since it's silly. Lolth has half a dozen or more firmly under her heel and never mentions any of them.

Where are such worlds described, or at least referred to?

[Fable Wright]

Where are such worlds described, or at least referred to?

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits had some, I believe.