OOTS #961 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Starscream]

Hmmm, guess there goes my theory that Roy knows what's up with Durkon. Though it seems he was suspicious.

[DaggerPen]

Hrm, the chant at the end seemed pretty forced, but I loved the rest enough to make up for it. I cracked up especially at Durkon sending theological dissertations to the Thor writers.

And nice to see Roy still has some suspicions. Even if, uh, he seems to have gone down the wrong road entirely. So close...

[ThePhantom]

Should have been careful, a ten on a listen check doesn't mean you're hearing it right.

[Lyese]

Uh-oh. Celia better watch out. Roy is a ladies' man.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No, Roy, you were so close and yet so far!

[WindStruck]

:confused:

This is correct for the emoticon for the thread page. I mean... really... what??

[CrispyCriminal]

On one hand, it's not like Hel is anything more than a boogy (wo)man that scares dwarves and northern followers into looking towards the bright instead of blight.

On the other hand, I'd imagine there is a pause between sentences even in chanting. Though to Durkula's defense, he doesn't breathe anymore.

[commander panda]

roy you idiot :smallannoyed:. it's like he'll need to die again (via sever blood loss) before her understands. how do you get 'hell' from 'Hel' when YOU WERE HALF EXPECTING HIM TO SAY HEL?
also: what :confused:??? i think belkir's stab to the head broke something.

[oppyu]

Roy, you... just... idiot! Stop trusting the blood-sucking abomination!

Way to avert the 'dumb fighter' stereotype dude.

[Qaanol]

*groan* at the punchline.

[Spacy]

Now I wonder what he used to chant.

[Emperor Time]

That was a pretty good twist during the last panel. But still, Roy should listen more carefully in order to hear that Durkon was saying "know" instead of "no". Since if this keeps up then Vampire Durkon has a great chance in actually accomplishing Hel's wishes.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I do like that Roy was suspicious of Durkon. Shows he is not entirely trusting.

[CrazyCatPerson]

I laughed at the "Theological Dissertations in the Thor comic book". Gold!

[Anarion]

I actually facepalmed during this comic. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but goodness gracious, Roy. You're killing me, here.

[Smolder]

"Know? Thor won't!"

That's a bit of a stretch...

[CoffeeIncluded]

Gah, just send Haley down there. See, this is why you send the rogue on the scouting missions!

EDIT: Yeah, the chant definitely feels forced though.

[oppyu]

You should have staked not-Durkon the moment he came back with grey skin and a new diet. It should have gone "Thanks for the help. Stake. Now let's find a cleric." But nooooooo, you trusted him. And you let him on your fancy ship. And now you're feeding the evil bastard hijacking your friend's corpse and annihilating his soul like a gremlin. You never feed the gremlin!

I am annoyed at Roy right now.

[Doug Lampert]

Hrm, the chant at the end seemed pretty forced, but I loved the rest enough to make up for it. I cracked up especially at Durkon sending theological dissertations to the Thor writers.

And nice to see Roy still has some suspicions. Even if, uh, he seems to have gone down the wrong road entirely. So close...
Yeah, the chant doesn't do it for me. "Go Hel", sure that works. But "Know? Thor won't." Really?

I'm going to assume it's deliberate. They stood around and talked just outside the room, and while Roy is probably about +2 on listen checks, Durkon is probably about +16 without any ranks (18 starting wisdom, 3 from levels, 4 from an item, 2 from vampire for +8 and then +8 more for vampire racial bonus to listen).

Putting your ear to the door is probably only a +2 circumstance bonus, so basically, baring unusual rolls, Durkon hears Roy long before Roy hears Durkon.

Roy should have sent Haley, who probably has move silently and listen both trained to 18 or so ranks.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I laughed at the "Theological Dissertations in the Thor comic book". Gold!

Absolutely.

I'm imagining Durkon writing these long dissertations and no one being able to read it due to the accent.

[Mutant Sheep]

:roy:I am Roy, the denier of reality. Fear my power.
:elan:Wait, but that's my job!

... *is bad at humor*

Horray for naming the background characters and giving them the semblance of a human conscious though. Though nothing will beat Cliffport Rookie.. Guy.:smallconfused:

[TSGames]

Hrm, the chant at the end seemed pretty forced

That was my takeaway from the comic as well. Can't win 'em all.

[Gnome Alone]

:elan: Geez, guys, it'd be kinda boring for Roy to figure it out right away. Gotta have time to build some suspicion and suspense. Give it a minute, y'know?

Also, looks like Andi a.k.a Andromeda is practicing ventriloquism in the first panel there.

[Smolder]

Roy is going to be blind to whatever HPoH does for most of this book, I'm guessing. This is just the beginning of a loooong series of running gags....

[...]

This makes me laugh much too hard...

[Jasdoif]

Hrm, the chant at the end seemed pretty forced, but I loved the rest enough to make up for it.Well, it's entirely possible this specific chant was formulated in case he was ever subjected to eavesdropping. With Durkon's accent, and tendency to send dissertations to comics apparently, it wouldn't seem that out of place to an outside observer compared to normal expectations.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, the chant doesn't do it for me. "Go Hel", sure that works. But "Know? Thor won't." Really?

I'm going to assume it's deliberate. They stood around and talked just outside the room, and while Roy is probably about +2 on listen checks, Durkon is probably about +16 without any ranks (18 starting wisdom, 3 from levels, 4 from an item, 2 from vampire for +8 and then +8 more for vampire racial bonus to listen).

Putting your ear to the door is probably only a +2 circumstance bonus, so basically, baring unusual rolls, Durkon hears Roy long before Roy hears Durkon.

Roy should have sent Haley, who probably has move silently and listen both trained to 18 or so ranks.


Well, it's entirely possible this specific chant was formulated in case he was ever subjected to eavesdropping. With Durkon's accent, and tendency to send dissertations to comics apparently, it wouldn't seem that out of place to an outside observer compared to normal expectations.

I think those are pretty good ways to put it. This way, The High Priest of Hel is still praying to Hel, while making it look like he prays to Thor, and Roy's mistake isn't entirely his fault.

[Illven]

:elan: Geez, guys, it'd be kinda boring for Roy to figure it out right away. Gotta have time to build some suspicion and suspense. Give it a minute, y'know?

Also, looks like Andi a.k.a Andromeda is practicing ventriloquism in the first panel there.

Sure, I can understand the story needs Roy to not realize right away that Durkon isn't control of his body anymore.

But I feel that this particular instance is rather forced.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, I figured the awkward phrasing was intentional on Dwarfula's part.

[Edric O]

I'm... a little confused at the punchline. What does "Know? Thor won't!" actually mean? :smallconfused:

[Porthos]

For those saying this was forced, dare I say it....

That's the joke! :smalltongue:

Personally, I saw this comic as a throwback to a lot of the humor we saw in the first hundred strips. Maybe even the first three hundred.

Of course it was a forced joke. To me, it was blatant that it was supposed to be. :smallwink:

[Sunken Valley]

Is Andi the $5000 cameo?

[DaggerPen]

I feel like Roy misinterpreting the chant isn't really his fault either way, because - well, come on, his interpretation sounds way more fluid than "Know? Thor won't!" You'd probably mishear it too.

But if not intentionally formulated by the HPOH, I feel like the chant was really stretched to make the punchline. Not the end of the world - I still liked the strip - but it killed the punchline for me. YMMV.

[ti'esar]

I agree with Porthos. This one made me laugh pretty hard from just how ridiculous it was.

[Jasdoif]

I'm... a little confused at the punchline. What does "Know? Thor won't!" actually mean? :smallconfused:Presumably, Thor isn't aware of whatever's supposed to drive him to his knees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

Other than that...I don't know. Maybe that means I'm Thor? :smallconfused: Pretty sure I'm not....

[Jay R]

There. Now everybody on the forum should be satisfied. Roy actually considered Belkar's point of view, looked into it, and assured himself of the truth.

Problem solved.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But if not intentionally formulated by the HPOH, I feel like the chant was really stretched to male the punchline. Not the end of the world - I still liked the strip - but so it goes.

Now that I have seen the idea expressed I think it looks as though it is intentional. The strip definitely feels better if that's so. I feel a little silly I didn't see this possibility until several people pointed it out.

[tomandtish]

I'm... a little confused at the punchline. What does "Know? Thor won't!" actually mean? :smallconfused:

Presumably that Thor won't know whatever Hel is up to.

And as with all listen checks, success means you heard. Comprehension is something else entirely.

[Porthos]

The real problem here is that Roy has a piss poor Listen check. :smallwink:

[Drake2009]

LOL. Seriously though, Roy has a pretty good intelligence, and wisdom id say, he should be able to hear what hes saying through A WOODEN DOOR! its not exactly sound proof...

[Porthos]

For those who want to say that Durkon is doing this messed up chant intentionally, look at how happy he is while he is chanting. If you want to interpet that look as a person happy that they are messing with someone, I could see worse interpetations. :smallsmile:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

LOL. Seriously though, Roy has a pretty good intelligence, and wisdom id say, he should be able to hear what hes saying through A WOODEN DOOR! its not exactly sound proof...
His hearing appears to be fine. It's just that he comes to the wrong conclusion about what he hears.

[ORione]

Roy is checking to see whether or not Durkula is up to no good...

... and the forum still thinks he's being stupid. :smallsigh:

[Kish]

I'm wondering why we're getting so many strips that, at least so far, look like they can be summed up as, "No, the Order is not going to abruptly realize the High Priest of Hel is not Durkon without more evidence than is currently available to them." If that truly is the message Rich is trying to convey, the forum split into "get it" and "will never accept it" after the very first such strip, and I don't see that there's been any change in the relative numbers since then.

Perhaps Rich is, with what I'd call excessive optimism, hoping that if he hammers it enough some number of people who haven't gotten it yet will get it. Or perhaps he's having fun teasing some of his readers.

[Gnome Alone]

Sure, I can understand the story needs Roy to not realize right away that Durkon isn't control of his body anymore.

That's not what I meant. Or, it's part of it, I guess. But really, it doesn't make sense for Roy to be that suspicious of the vampire right now. The only things he has to go on are the halfling who cried wolf's testimony, and possibly a sense of unease about his friend's transformation.

It is entirely believable that the vampire could be Durkon, just a little more sadistic and/or pragmatic in battle and more taciturn in speech. The High Priest's facade is decent enough. It will require more time to develop cracks enough that Roy can see through it.

I suspect a lot of forum-folk are metagaming, so to speak, and wanting Roy to act on information we are privy to that he is not.

[Drake2009]

His hearing appears to be fine. It's just that he comes to the wrong conclusion about what he hears.

Hence, intelligence. I mean come on! hes a smart guy. I guess hes just in denial.

[Bulldog Psion]

Okay, that was just weird. :smallconfused:

[YossarianLives]

I guess Roy failed his listen check.

Nice comic by the way I liked the interaction between Roy and "Andi"

[ti'esar]

Perhaps Rich is, with what I'd call excessive optimism, hoping that if he hammers it enough some number of people who haven't gotten it yet will get it. Or perhaps he's having fun teasing some of his readers.

I'd put my money on the latter. Although that's possibly just because I'm getting a kick out of the people who can't seem to accept the current story direction.

[Paseo H]

I'm wondering why we're getting so many strips that, at least so far, look like they can be summed up as, "No, the Order is not going to abruptly realize the High Priest of Hel is not Durkon without more evidence than is currently available to them." If that truly is the message Rich is trying to convey, the forum split into "get it" and "will never accept it" after the very first such strip, and I don't see that there's been any change in the relative numbers since then.

Perhaps Rich is, with what I'd call excessive optimism, hoping that if he hammers it enough some number of people who haven't gotten it yet will get it. Or perhaps he's having fun teasing some of his readers.

I still consider it a win, in that it showed that Roy wasn't too blindly trusting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It should also be noted that the books tend to start a little slower in the pacing.

[BrotherMirtillo]

how do you get 'hell' from 'Hel' when YOU WERE HALF EXPECTING HIM TO SAY HEL?

Does Roy know who Hel is and what she does? If so, when did he learn that?

Also, this shows that the crew isn't 100% comfortable with the idea of a vampire as a fellow passenger. I suspect they've dealt with bizarre guests in their history, but everyone's got their own limits on "weird," I suppose.

Call for a second opinion: the woman in today's scene is named Andromeda, but I thought the woman in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html) scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) was named Sally. Are they related? They've got the same hair, complexion, and boots, but maybe not the same clothes. (I am 99% sure that "Sally" does not mean the stubbly crewmember with the green cloak and brown vest.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Does Roy know who Hel is and what she does? If so, when did he learn that?
I don't think he does; we've certainly never seen Durkon mention her to him.


Call for a second opinion: the woman in today's scene is named Andromeda, but I thought the woman in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html) scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html) was named Sally. Are they related? They've got the same hair, complexion, and boots, but maybe not the same clothes. (I am 99% sure that "Sally" does not mean the stubbly crewmember with the green cloak and brown vest.)
Could be that they're related, or it could be due to the only so many ways to draw hairstyles thing.

[3Doubloons]

The joke feels less forced, if you imagine it being chanted: in monotone, with a pause between each word. The weird wording is just an artifact of HPoH finding a phrasing that praises Hel while sounding like praising Thor

[ManuelSacha]

Worst punchline in a thousand strips.
Heh... they can't all be winners.

[TheMiningDwarf]

I'm still trying to figure out what the prayer was supposed to mean. Considering the actual prayer makes almost no sense even with all the grammar you wouldn't get when someone is speaking I'd probably agree with Roy if I heard someone chanting that.

[Ghost Nappa]

I like how Roy does seem to have internalize that Belkar - while amoral - isn't really the kind of guy to run around and spread baseless conspiracies that are totally detached from reality without actually believing in them. What do you mean it's not a baseless conspiracy?

Unfortunately, he still has the character flaw of "Thinks he's smarter than he is," particularly regarding Vampires and whether or not Belkar's evil conspiracy detecting nose is capable of detecting false positives....Or is it Negative because it's a corpse powered by negative energy...? Hmm.


So, yes. Of all the members of the Order who seem to naturally have the capacity to Detect Evil, it's the guy who was blocking it with lead sheets before it was cool to do so.


Also, Durkula is totally yanking Roy's chain.

[Werephilosopher]

...once again, Durkula proves to be one clever SOB.

[Haleth]

I like Andi, and I like the rapport she has with Roy. I hope she shows up in the future.

On another note, I am ashamed at myself for actually snickering at the punchline.

[oppyu]

I'd put my money on the latter. Although that's possibly just because I'm getting a kick out of the people who can't seem to accept the current story direction.
Dude, you have the 'Because plot says so' is bad post linked in your sig. 'Roy's more or less blindly accepting the murderous fiend because the story is currently headed in that direction and people not accepting that is both silly and funny' is basically the same concept.

[Emanick]

Could be that they're related, or it could be due to the only so many ways to draw hairstyles thing.

It's a really unusual-looking hairstyle. It seems highly unlikely that Sally and Andi look identical by mere chance.

It's really confusing. My guess is that either Rich forgot that he already named the character, or that Sally is actually the hooded man beside Andy in an earlier strip. Neither seems that believable, though.

[Lexible]

Uh-oh. Celia better watch out. Roy is a ladies' man.

Huh... didn't read that way to me at all. Unless an unrelated/barely acquainted man and woman can only be conversing for romantic and sexual reasons ?

[ti'esar]

Dude, you have the 'Because plot says so' is bad post linked in your sig. 'Roy's more or less blindly accepting the murderous fiend because the story is currently headed in that direction and people not accepting that is both silly and funny' is basically the same concept.

People have noted plenty of reasons why Roy accepting the vampire makes sense from his position. So I don't see anything contradictory in finding it amusing when Rich tweaks the people who get outraged whenever the party makes suboptimal decisions.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's a really unusual-looking hairstyle. It seems highly unlikely that Sally and Andi look identical by mere chance.

It's really confusing. My guess is that either Rich forgot that he already named the character, or that Sally is actually the hooded man beside Andy in an earlier strip. Neither seems that believable, though.

I'll continue to think she's a relative (maybe twins?) or coincidence until shown otherwise. I find a mistake of that level very unlikely, and I doubt that the hooded guy was Sally.

[oppyu]

Huh... didn't read that way to me at all. Unless an unrelated/barely acquainted man and woman can only be conversing for romantic and sexual reasons ?
It did to me a bit with the second panel "more personal" line, but I think that's more a reflection on me than the strip.


People have noted plenty of reasons why Roy accepting the vampire makes sense from his position. So I don't see anything contradictory in finding it amusing when Rich tweaks the people who get outraged whenever the party makes suboptimal decisions.
Hrrm. I choose to believe my outrage is due to being emotionally engaged with the story rather than believing the party members should always do smart things all the time. Intellectually recognising why Roy's not on to not-Durkon doesn't help being frustrated at it.

[Kish]

Does Roy know who Hel is and what she does? If so, when did he learn that?

...and how does anyone tell the difference between the spoken words "Hel" and "Hell", without Rich deciding to make a joke about it being a comic with an unreliable fourth wall?


Dude, you have the 'Because plot says so' is bad post linked in your sig. 'Roy's more or less blindly accepting the murderous fiend because the story is currently headed in that direction and people not accepting that is both silly and funny' is basically the same concept.
...Yeah, it theoretically would be. Good thing that's nothing like "Roy needs actual evidence of Vampire Durkon being an enemy, and is not going to grab for any of the loose straws people on the forum come up with, nor, with a shudder of revulsion, declaim, 'Good vampires are dead-dead vampires!'"

[oppyu]

...Yeah, it theoretically would be. Good thing that's nothing like "Roy needs actual evidence of Vampire Durkon being an enemy, and is not going to grab for any of the loose straws people on the forum come up with, nor, with a shudder of revulsion, declaim, 'Good vampires are dead-dead vampires!'"

To be fair, it's been established that in this universe good vampires really are dead-dead vampires. Although I know Roy and the others don't have the Knowledge: Obscure Fiends to recognise that.

[Ghost Nappa]

...and how does anyone tell the difference between the spoken words "Hel" and "Hell", without Rich deciding to make a joke about it being a comic with an unreliable fourth wall?

By playing with the logic of how Durkon messed up "Windy" with "Windy"? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be fair, it's been established that in this universe good vampires really are dead-dead vampires. Although I know Roy and the others don't have the Knowledge: Obscure Fiends to recognise that.

According to The Giant, there could in theory be Good vampires, we just don't need them for the story.

[ti'esar]

To be fair, it's been established that in this universe good vampires really are dead-dead vampires. Although I know Roy and the others don't have the Knowledge: Obscure Fiends to recognise that.

I think that's a definite (though reasonable) misreading of what's actually been said about Stickworld vampires.

[Kish]

without Rich deciding to make a joke about it being a comic with an unreliable fourth wall?By playing with the logic of how Durkon messed up "Windy" with "Windy"? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html)
I love it when people quote me and respond in a way that completely ignores half of what they quoted.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, looks like Andi a.k.a Andromeda is practicing ventriloquism in the first panel there.
On the one hand, after checking the first panel it's obvious you were talking about the lack of a tail on Andi's dialogue balloon. On the other hand, taken out of context, it looks like it's only a matter of time before Andi converts to Banjoism.

Why does context have to ruin everything?

[Lexible]

I think that's a definite (though reasonable) misreading of what's actually been said about Stickworld vampires.

I am not sure it is a misreading: per word from Rob, Durkula is vampire standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then musn't all vampires necessarily be binding the spirits of their body's original soul and enslaving their memories the way Durkon is bound and enslaved by HPoH? Not really clear how you get out of being Evil alignment when that is literally the MO of your day to day existence. What do you think?

[LuisDantas]

This was a far more meaningful strip than it seems at first reading.

It establishes that Roy is (appropriately) uncertain of Durkon's loyalties and that he is bound to at some point realize that it is exceedingly odd that a supposedly non-theistic Cleric is supposedly praying to Thor.

Yeah... I guess it also establishes that Roy has no ranks on Knowledge: Religion. And that Celia will want to have a harsh talk with Roy in the future too.

[Amphiox]

I'm reading this is as most likely supposed to be a religious chant on continuous loop, like a spoken Gregorian Chant, or one of those Buddhist chants.

Such chants typically have no inflection, and equal pauses between all the words, so no indication to a listener which word is supposed to be the first and which is supposed to be the last.

And HPoH is saying it over and over again, and Roy is catching it in the middle.

So it's a continuous repeat of Go-Hel-Know-Thor-Won't-Go-Hel-Know-Thor-Won't. And Roy hears Hel-Know-Thor-Won't-Go-Hel-Know-Thor-Won't-Go.

Given Durkon's accent, Hel and Hell, and Know and No are probably identical in sound.

In circumstances like this it is literally impossible for a listener to distinguish the "proper" word order. Add to the fact that the sequence Hel/Hell-No/Know-Thor-Won't-Go *sounds* much more natural of a construction, it is practically inevitable that this is what Roy is hearing. Which is another argument in favor of the idea that HPoH chose this particular chant deliberately to deceive.

About the only way anyone has any chance of hearing it the right way is to be prejudiced against the HPoH beforehand, and deliberately intent of interpreting everything he does in the worst possible light. In other words, Belkar is the only member of the Order who would likely not be fooled by this chant.

[Lexible]

On the one hand, after checking the first panel it's obvious you were talking about the lack of a tail on Andi's dialogue balloon. On the other hand, taken out of context, it looks like it's only a matter of time before Andi converts to Banjoism.

Why does context have to ruin everything?

What do you mean by ruin? :smallsmile: Banjoist Andi would rock.

Also: mayhap Andi and Sally are siblings (twins)? I know it's implausible because we haven't seen one actively trying to violently thwart the other...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I am not sure it is a misreading: per word from Rob, Durkula is vampire standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then musn't all vampires necessarily be binding the spirits of their body's original soul and enslaving their memories the way Durkon is bound and enslaved by HPoH? Not really clear how you get out of being Evil alignment when that is literally the MO of your day to day existence. What do you think?

The vampire spirits are not forced to be Evil. They have free will and can become another alignment. It would seem that, being created by an Evil god, they probably start as Evil, and there's also the problem of how could a Good being enslave someone, but in theory a spirit could turn good.

Granted, my citation is more of a "sure, why not" as opposed to a "yes, Good vampires definitely exist", but I think it is enough support.

Edit: I think I misread your post and thought you were asking something different. Sorry about that. I think it is possible for someone to share a body with someone and maintain a Good alignment, and the quote by The Giant indirectly supports this idea.

[JustWantedToSay]

Sally is a nickname for Cassandromeda. :smallamused:

More seriously, both Andi and Sally are nicknames for (Cas)Sandra.

[Kish]

I'd just like to say that you don't need to have a romantic or sexual interest in someone to prefer they call you by something with your name in it rather than Mr. Big Time Hero Guy.

(Also, if you-know-what is Vampire Durkon, is Rob Vampire Rich?)

and that he is bound to at some point realize that it is exceedingly odd that a supposedly non-theistic Cleric is supposedly praying to Thor.
The only people who ever thought Vampire Durkon was a non-theistic cleric were on the forum. Roy thinks he's a cleric of Thor as Durkon always has been.

[jidasfire]

As far as the punchline went, I thought it was indeed a little bit of a stretch, but frankly I was impressed by the fact that Rich managed to take the same words in the same order and, by changing their punctuation, make them mean something totally different. As a former English teacher, I can say that this is proof grammar matters!

Also, I think Roy is being as reasonably suspicious as he can here. After seeing Durkon risk his unlife for the party against Tarquin's army and the Linear Guild, he's reasonably sure the vampire is still his friend, and it's not exactly crazy of him. Still, Belkar's insistence put that tiny doubt in his mind, and Roy, being a smart guy, checked it out in a way that wouldn't violate his friend's trust too much. And if his supposed chant to Thor is a little silly, well, Thor has always been one of the sillier parts of the comic, so it's not too out of the blue.

I have to say, now that the crew of the ship are all getting named and such, I am starting to worry for them a little. I hope they don't all end up his thralls when Durkula makes his move.

[zimmerwald1915]

I am not sure it is a misreading: per word from Rob, Durkula is vampire standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then musn't all vampires necessarily be binding the spirits of their body's original soul and enslaving their memories the way Durkon is bound and enslaved by HPoH? Not really clear how you get out of being Evil alignment when that is literally the MO of your day to day existence. What do you think?
The Tok'ra manage it, despite being brain parasites that could usurp their hosts if they wanted to.

Actually all these folks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SymbioticPossession) manage it too, to varying degrees of success. It's not that uncommon in fiction.

EDIT: replaced link to examples with link to slightly better examples.


What do you mean by ruin? :smallsmile: Banjoist Andi would rock.
Yes it would. Unfortunately, it wasn't what Gnome Alone was talking about. Hence, the ruination.

[Lexible]

The vampire spirits are not forced to be Evil. They have free will and can become another alignment. It would seem that, being created by an Evil god, they probably start as Evil, and there's also the problem of how could a Good being enslave someone, but in theory a spirit could turn good.

If there's a different way of being a vampire, sure. But I thought what we have seen of Durkula is the model: i.e. there was a legless lizardfolk shaman bound up by the High Priest of Nergal, etc. As vampirism has been shown to work, and claimed to be the way vampirism works in OotS in general, I don't see where some non-Evil vamping mechanic comes in play.

[Amphiox]

According to The Giant, there could in theory be Good vampires, we just don't need them for the story.

A Vampire in stickverse begins as a soul parasite. But the vampire soul is not responsible for its own creation or circumstance. It is the will of the siring Vampire that sets the circumstances, and the actions of the governing deity of the death domain that actually makes it.

To judge a Stickverse Vampire as irredeemably evil SOLELY on this circumstance of soul parasitism is tantamount to declaring tigers evil for killing deer, or indeed any parasite evil for doing what it must do to survive.

If a vampire in the Stickverse is to be judged evil, it needs to be judged on the actions it intentionally does with knowledge within reasonable expectations of the immediate consequences thereof.

A good Vampire in the Stickverse would presumably stop absorbing memories from its host (assuming that this process requires conscious intent on the vampire soul's part) so as not to result in the destruction of that soul. It may possibly choose self-destruction to free the host soul (if it was so good as to be on the self-sacrificing saint side of the spectrum), or perchance it might negotiate with its host an equitable way of sharing the body. Or, if the host soul was actually a very evil one, it might remain to suppress the host soul.

A good Vampire that has its "road to Damascus conversion" to goodness only AFTER it had finished absorbing and destroying the host soul would of course not be able to do that, and will be doomed for the rest of its existence to angst over its past, "unforgiveable" crimes.

The narrative niche of angsty good vampires is well filled already. Stickverse does not need to contribute to that pool by adding any more!


(On the other hand, there is an argument for the destruction of Stickverse vampires regardless of its alignment, not as punishment for evildoing, but for restoring the enslaved host, or as "pest control" for a dangerous parasite. It would make quite a moral quandary if the vampire actually was Good.)

(Not predicting this in any way, but what a twist it would be if Durkon actually manages to talk the HPoH into turning Good and repudiating Hel, or if Roy's kindness moves it in a similar direction!)

[Lexible]

Yes it would. Unfortunately, it wasn't what the quoted post was talking about. Hence, the ruination.

You misspelled betterified R U I N A T I O N in your response. :)


A fair point on sharing a body. I resign myself to agnosticism as to whether non-Evil vampires are possible in OotSiverse, or whether vampires are Evil in essence.

Added: My interest in the question is because D&D's history and the skein of fantasy from which it was derived are mired in colonizing notions of irredeemable evil. The forums (and elsewhere on Earth) have many voices presenting a counter narrative where the individual always has a choice in whether or not to be or commit Evil (Amphiox and Zimmerwald, I think I would not be remiss in labeling you as voicing such). I am not aware of whether Rob Rich has definitively said there are categories, like species or races, that are simply, unambiguously, universally and irredeemably Evil (e.g. vampires are always Evil).

We sure know black dragons are not.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If there's a different way of being a vampire, sure. But I thought what we have seen of Durkula is the model: i.e. there was a legless lizardfolk shaman bound up by the High Priest of Nergal, etc. As vampirism has been shown to work, and claimed to be the way vampirism works in OotS in general, I don't see where some non-Evil vamping mechanic comes in play.

Look at the third word in my sig. It shows that vampires have free will and maybe can choose to be Good. And, as Zimmerwald points out above, sharing bodies has been done before, without being necessarily Evil. In theory, a vampire could posses a body in a mutual relationship with their host.

Edit: Amphiox sums this up much better, I think.

[Barnacle]

Personally, I assume that the forced-awkward-wording is intentional on Durkula's part--he deliberately picked a chant and intonation that could be explained away as an innocent chant to Thor. It makes sense for him to cover his back in case he's overheard in his prayers.

He's a wily one.

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

I'll continue to think she's a relative (maybe twins?) or coincidence until shown otherwise. I find a mistake of that level very unlikely, and I doubt that the hooded guy was Sally.

Hey, Firefly had a man named Jane. Sally could be just like Jane.

----------------------------
In other matters

1) Forced or not, accent doesn't come into play... cause obviously Durkula isn't speaking in accent, otherwise it would be Guh Hel! Knew? Thor Woont!... which would sound considerably different from Hell nay, Thor woont guh! Which is an issue in itself.

2) Too much evidence proves it isn't Durkon: The slipping accent which aids in the confusing of the words, but requires he has no accent which Durkon has a heavy one; The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name? The fact Roy has heard Durkon pray for years now and a sudden change in the prayer would stick out like Titan in a Pixie Grove.

3) Roy has claimed to be not another dumb fighter. If Belkar can figure it out, then not only should Roy figure it out, but should have a circumstantial bonus from Belkar's observations.

No matter how you slice it, this isn't just forced, this is a mile wide/deep/long square peg shoehorned and sledgehammered into a meter wide/deep round hole. It not only doesn't fit, but it doesn't even make sense that a fraction of it can fit.

Now, if Roy was crestfallen and said, "This fiend is the lesser of two evils, until we can find a way to true resurrect him, or defeat the real threats first, we'll just have to be on alert and make do for now.", that would make sense. Him rationalizing keeping Durkula around like he rationalizes keeping Belkar around is believable... his being dumber then Thog's broken fang is not.

[Smolder]

Huh... didn't read that way to me at all. Unless an unrelated/barely acquainted man and woman can only be conversing for romantic and sexual reasons ?

If I was a low level npc in OOTS and a protagonist walked by, I'd definitely introduce myself. I'm instantly elevated to named character and my odds of survival significantly improved.

[Bulldog Psion]

Huh... didn't read that way to me at all. Unless an unrelated/barely acquainted man and woman can only be conversing for romantic and sexual reasons ?

Agreed -- it seems like a normal neutral-friendly conversation you have with someone who is slightly on your side through circumstance.

Construing it into anything remotely romantic is even more bizarre than Durk Malackssen's prayer. Unless we now consider acknowledging the existence of a person of the opposite sex is equivalent to slavering lust?

Odd stuff you encounter on forums. :smallconfused:

[Lexible]

If I was a low level npc in OOTS and a protagonist walked by, I'd definitely introduce myself. I'm instantly elevated to named character and my odds of survival significantly improved.

I totally buy that!

We have seen how Roy puts the moves on women he is interested in. My comment was directed at what seemed to me to be an assumption a man and woman cannot have a non-sexually/non-romantically motivated connection or interaction. They totally had repartee and sizzly wits, but the folks chiming in that there's gotta be beef between Roy and Celia now seem to be forcing something that ain't there.

[137beth]

This completely breaks my theory that Roy actually knew what was going on but was lying to Belkar to protect his knowledge from Detect Lies.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hey, Firefly had a man named Jane. Sally could be just like Jane. The spelling was different, though. It was "Jayne". Also, since she reported back to Bandana on the engine, I'm assuming she is Sally, since Bandana said she was asking Sally.



In other matters

1) Forced or not, accent doesn't come into play... cause obviously Durkula isn't speaking in accent, otherwise it would be Guh Hel! Knew? Thor Woont!... which would sound considerably different from Hell nay, Thor woont guh! Which is an issue in itself.
I don't think we've ever seen Durkon accent any of those words, certainly not consistently, and chants tend not to have much accenting.


2) Too much evidence proves it isn't Durkon: The slipping accent which aids in the confusing of the words, but requires he has no accent which Durkon has a heavy one; The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name? The fact Roy has heard Durkon pray for years now and a sudden change in the prayer would stick out like Titan in a Pixie Grove.
Durkon's a prude? Are we reading the same comic?


3) Roy has claimed to be not another dumb fighter. If Belkar can figure it out, then not only should Roy figure it out, but should have a circumstantial bonus from Belkar's observations.
Belkar's way of figuring it out had very little to do with intellect.


No matter how you slice it, this isn't just forced, this is a mile wide/deep/long square peg shoehorned and sledgehammered into a meter wide/deep round hole. It not only doesn't fit, but it doesn't even make sense that a fraction of it can fit.

Now, if Roy was crestfallen and said, "This fiend is the lesser of two evils, until we can find a way to true resurrect him, or defeat the real threats first, we'll just have to be on alert and make do for now.", that would make sense. Him rationalizing keeping Durkula around like he rationalizes keeping Belkar around is believable... his being dumber then Thog's broken fang does not.
Needless to say, I disagree here.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Added: My interest in the question is because D&D's history and the skein of fantasy from which it was derived are mired in colonizing notions of irredeemable evil. The forums (and elsewhere on Earth) have many voices presenting a counter narrative where the individual always has a choice in whether or not to be or commit Evil (Amphiox and Zimmerwald, I think I would not be remiss in labeling you as voicing such). I am not aware of whether Rob has definitively said there are categories, like species or races, that are simply, unambiguously, universally and irredeemably Evil (e.g. vampires are always Evil).

We sure know black dragons are not.

The third word in my sig is a link to a quote wherein the Giant sees the possibility of Good vampires, and that they are free-willed.

[zimmerwald1915]

Added: My interest in the question is because D&D's history and the skein of fantasy from which it was derived are mired in colonizing notions of irredeemable evil. The forums (and elsewhere on Earth) have many voices presenting a counter narrative where the individual always has a choice in whether or not to be or commit Evil (Amphiox and Zimmerwald, I think I would not be remiss in labeling you as voicing such). I am not aware of whether Rob has definitively said there are categories, like species or races, that are simply, unambiguously, universally and irredeemably Evil (e.g. vampires are always Evil).
Who's Rob?

If you're referring to the Giant, he's stated that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232652-Redcloak-s-failed-characterization-and-what-it-means-for-the-comic-as-a-whole/page18&p=12743252#post12743252) one of his projects is to criticize the labeling of certain peoples as Always or Usually Evil. There are probably other quotes that avoid the "applying sweeping alignment labels to non-biological creatures is okay" caveat, but I'm not going to bother looking for them because someone will probably have ninja'd me with one by the time I get this post into an acceptable form.

EDIT: it would seem the ninja in question is Jarxan Proditor! Congratulations on your mastery of speed and stealth.

An aside: I strongly suspect my theory of consciousness-formation is much less individualistic than Amphiox's, and that our alignment on this particular issue is incidental.

[Lexible]

Also, I have to say I am DELIGHTED that Andi is holding a screwdriver whilst saying "reversed polarity".

[Peelee]

how do you get 'hell' from 'Hel' when YOU WERE HALF EXPECTING HIM TO SAY HEL?


Roy should listen more carefully in order to hear that Durkon was saying "know" instead of "no".
How best to put this.....

Really?


...and how does anyone tell the difference between the spoken words "Hel" and "Hell", without Rich deciding to make a joke about it being a comic with an unreliable fourth wall?
Thank you for being a voice of reason. It saved a lot more WTF-style ranting on my part.


Hey, Firefly had a man named Jane. Sally could be just like Jane.
Jayne, technically.

[Lexible]

The third word in my sig is a link to a quote wherein the Giant sees the possibility of Good vampires, and that they are free-willed.

Alas... all the folks with their character stats or magic the gather deck flavors or whatnot in their sigs have driven me to turn sigs off. So I missed it.

[nrwillick]

This was a far more meaningful strip than it seems at first reading.

It establishes that Roy is (appropriately) uncertain of Durkon's loyalties and that he is bound to at some point realize that it is exceedingly odd that a supposedly non-theistic Cleric is supposedly praying to Thor.

Yeah... I guess it also establishes that Roy has no ranks on Knowledge: Religion. And that Celia will want to have a harsh talk with Roy in the future too.

I could have swore Durkula has prayed to Thor before...

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, a chant that phonetically is a prayer for Thor and a prayer for his enemy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

EDIT: it would seem the ninja in question is Jarxan Proditor! Congratulations on your mastery of speed and stealth.
Quite speedy, since those quotes were in my sig months before your post. :smallbiggrin:

Alas... all the folks with their character stats or magic the gather deck flavors or whatnot in their sigs have driven me to turn sigs off. So I missed it.

Sometimes I forget that can be done. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17334948#post17334948) is the link.

[A Tad Insane]

Rich, you worked a bit to hard for that last panel. It is almost painful to read.

That being said, if someone would actually ever say something as cumbersome as that, it is phonetically exactly the same as what Roy thought he heard, just with a weird beat between "won't" and "go", and "hell" and "no". In fact, the flow of the two phrases are completely different, even if the phonetics are completely the same.

[ti'esar]

Also, I have to say I am DELIGHTED that Andi is holding a screwdriver whilst saying "reversed polarity".

Oh gods, I hoped I was just reading too much into that.

[Lexible]

Sometimes I forget that can be done. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17334948#post17334948) is the link.

My thanks to you and Zimmerwald for the link... it's an interesting thread. Buried in it now...

[ORione]

The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name?

True. Durkon never (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html) cussed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html).

[Reddish Mage]

This completely breaks my theory that Roy actually knew what was going on but was lying to Belkar to protect his knowledge from Detect Lies.

You...really believed that?


The third word in my sig is a link to a quote wherein the Giant sees the possibility of Good vampires, and that they are free-willed.

I recall he mentioned or agreed that all the intelligent characters which The Giant writes are anthropomorphic in characterization and have human, not alien motivations. Even the devils and angels are all driven by similar desires and make decisions on the basis of motivations human would understand.

Undead would be no different. It follows from their human characterization the theoretical possibility that any intelligent "free-willed" (read as uncontrolled by magic) creature within Stickverse can choose good or evil. However, that doesn't mean that there is any reason to write such a character into the story.

Given that the Giant is not interested in criticizing the practice of painting devils or undead as always evil, there really isn't need to go out on a limb and write in a good one just to go against type.

I'm not sure why people mention it with Durkula, the vampire has shown he's quite evil and there isn't the slightest reason why the vampire should change.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I recall he mentioned or agreed that all the intelligent characters which The Giant writes are anthropomorphic in characterization and have human, not alien motivations. Even the devils and angels are all driven by similar desires and make decisions on the basis of motivations human would understand.

Undead would be no different. It follows from their human characterization the theoretical possibility that any intelligent "free-willed" (read as uncontrolled by magic) creature within Stickverse can choose good or evil. However, that doesn't mean that there is any reason to write such a character into the story.

Given that the Giant is not interested in criticizing the practice of painting devils or undead as always evil, there really isn't need to go out on a limb and write in a good one just to go against type.

I'm not sure why people mention it with Durkula, the vampire has shown he's quite evil and there isn't the slightest reason why the vampire should change.
My point in bringing it up is that the judgement "all vampires are Evil" cannot be made, and one cannot condemn a vampire just because that is their race. Whether or not a non-Evil vampire will show up in the story or if the High Priest of Hel would turn Good (both are probably not gonna happen) doesn't effect that point.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure why people mention it with Durkula, the vampire has shown he's quite evil and there isn't the slightest reason why the vampire should change.
Sure there is. It's penned itself up with Durkon of all people, who is not only the Good-est or second Good-est person in the Order, but is also due for some character development. I, and apparently a number of other people in this thread, could imagine a story where Durkon at least tries to come to an accord with the vampire-spirit. This would necessarily involve the vampire-spirit giving up memory-sucking and cutting the tethers in which Durkon is bound; it would also involve Durkon learning to be a slightly more flexible thinker and to reevaluate his hatred of the undead.

It is also possible to imagine the story going a near-infinite number of other ways, of course.

[3Doubloons]

2) Too much evidence proves it isn't Durkon: The slipping accent which aids in the confusing of the words, but requires he has no accent which Durkon has a heavy one; The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name? The fact Roy has heard Durkon pray for years now and a sudden change in the prayer would stick out like Titan in a Pixie Grove.

Durkon would have a very good reason of changing his prayer. Assuming he was still in control, he'd probably be celebrating that he's still his own person, thank Thor. Hence, it would make sense for "Hell no! Thor won't go!" to be a legitimate prayer in that situation. Of course, we know this isn't true, but Roy doesn't.


3) Roy has claimed to be not another dumb fighter. If Belkar can figure it out, then not only should Roy figure it out, but should have a circumstantial bonus from Belkar's observations.

Unlike Belkar, Roy has a very good reason to believe that Durkon is still in control: if he isn't, Roy lost his best friend and is letting an evil spirit parade around in his boddy. It's not an issue of smart and dumb, it's a case of the alternative being so terrible that Roy will not see it until he absolutely has to

[Gnome Alone]

Yes it would. Unfortunately, it wasn't what Gnome Alone was talking about. Hence, the ruination.

If it makes you feel better, I noticed the ambiguity caused by my use of the Elan smiley thing and decided to leave it in. Whether the choice of phrasing was felicitous coincidence or tomfoolery from my subconscious, I know not.

[zimmerwald1915]

If it makes you feel better, I noticed the ambiguity caused by my use of the Elan smiley thing and decided to leave it in.
It does, actually :smallsmile:

On a completely different topic, the rafter in the penultimate panel seems to end...prematurely.

[Crusher]

Sigh. I know the pacing tends to slow down at the beginning of new books, and since the Order has been through a lot Rich wants to show how the emotional tone has shifted in subtle ways (Roy not needing to tell everyone what to do, V's changing perception of the concept of power, etc), plus V finally coming clean to Roy about everything, and establishing what's really going on with Durkon and how everyone in the Order views him now, as well as introducing the presumably noteworthy Airship crew members. So there's been a lot to address, plus the jokes.

But its been 22 pages since Haley parted ways with her dad and it feels like the pacing of the story within the strips has really been slowing down. I think Rich is being very deliberate to make sure he conveys the emotional tone just right, but I think the mark has been a bit overshot. I mean, Sandsedge wasn't quite the same situation, but still they were only there for 10 pages.

[Terrador]

A few things I saw in this thread, I think I can touch on and provide two cents for.

-So many strips to say Durkula isn't going to get found out immediately!
Rich values book pacing more than comic pacing. There have been fifteen strips since the start of this book, and HPoH had third-string development at best going in. Undo the calamity that is your mammaries*, friend--it'll pace better in the book, and will be sorely needed in the future.

-Augh, this punchline is TERRIBLE!
Maybe it wasn't the best in the whole wide world (in that the most immediate interpretation makes it seem REALLY forced), but there's an entirely reasonable interpretation that has HPoH mocking Roy and Durkon in one stroke. If you didn't enjoy it, congrats! One less joke for you in your lifetime, eh?

-Andromeda? Sally?
I'm secretly hoping that what happened is that Bandana knew Roy wouldn't know the crew members' names and knew that Andi sounded like a guy's name, and came to the conclusion of "use a generic female name to get the point across" before "use her full name, which a Northerner might not know is female and therefore specifically this person". please let this be so

In other news, I suspect this is Bandana's ex. Curvy, top fairly similar to the one Haley wears now, lives on the ship (so she could share a closet with B), and (here it gets super subjective) seems to have an immediate fraternal click with Roy (your agenda or lack thereof DOES color your perception of others' intentions, stereotypes be damned). I smell it in my gut, I do!

*love this phrase.

[FujinAkari]

Yeah... sorry Rich... this just straight up seems forced and breaks my suspension of disbelief :(

[Metahuman1]

Yeah... sorry Rich... this just straight up seems forced and breaks my suspension of disbelief :(

This. This just became official plot induced stupidity on Roy's part at a minimum, probably on Hayley's, and 50/50 on Elan's. (He might be Genera Savvy enough to be making a plan to deal with this, I don't know on that one, could go either way.)

Regardless, I HATE this sub plot/arc/what ever the hell it is, and the sooner it goes and dies in a ditch the happier I'll be. :smallannoyed:

[Houtienchi]

Roy might have a decent intelligence but his wisdom is at rock bottom

[zimmerwald1915]

Roy might have a decent intelligence but his wisdom is at rock bottom
Not according to his bureaucratic deva it isn't.

[Emanick]

Agreed -- it seems like a normal neutral-friendly conversation you have with someone who is slightly on your side through circumstance.

Construing it into anything remotely romantic is even more bizarre than Durk Malackssen's prayer. Unless we now consider acknowledging the existence of a person of the opposite sex is equivalent to slavering lust?

Odd stuff you encounter on forums. :smallconfused:

It initially came across as somewhat romantic to me, too - but I think that's just because, in most fiction, it seems as though most characters of the opposite sex who immediately click inevitably become love interests, so my brain automatically drew lines that it probably shouldn't have. Fortunately, I very much doubt Rich is going to go down that path here, which is refreshing.

[oppyu]

Roy might have a decent intelligence but his wisdom is at rock bottom
Well... canonically he actually has decent WIS. There's not a lot of information out there about vampires, and Roy's using the ambiguity to delude himself and trust the dwarf-shaped parasite.

Still frustrating as hell to watch/read though.

[Ron Miel]

"taking orders from a kid"

What does this refer to? Basndana seems to be a grown up. Its hard to judge age from stick figure art, but Andi looks several years younger than Bandana.

[oppyu]

I think they meant Elan.

[Kish]

She's younger than Julio.

[Tvtyrant]

I thought this was really bad until I repeated the chant out loud, now I think it works fine.

[hamishspence]

She's younger than Julio.

Quite a lot younger - Julio is noticeably greying when Bandanna is still a small child:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html

[Koo Rehtorb]

Weak strip. Hopefully it picks up soon.

[Shendue]

Uh-oh. Celia better watch out. Roy is a ladies' man.

Uh...didn't Celia and Roy broke up already?

[hamishspence]

Uh...didn't Celia and Roy broke up already?

Nope:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html

[factotum]

Yeah, the chant doesn't do it for me. "Go Hel", sure that works. But "Know? Thor won't." Really?

It's always possible that Durkula deliberately chose that chant because it could be easily misinterpreted by anyone listening in. After all, what if Belkar were to walk past, hear his chant, and bring Roy down for a listen?

[WindStruck]

Oh come now guys. Roy was not being stupid here. After all, he was actually able to piece together those completely retarded, unintelligible words that barely even count as phrases into some sort of an idea that is barely coherent.

But yeah. I don't think this "chant" works at all. Two and a half weeks and that's the best Rich can come up with. Good grief.

[MisterM]

Andromeda, Andi for short.
Why does that sound familiar? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/ViridianSaga)

[Killer Angel]

...and they will be blind, 'til the truth will struck 'em all as a ram, in the most dramatic moment!

[hamishspence]

Mercedes Lackey also used "Andi" as a shortening of Andromeda, in her Tales of the 500 Kingdoms novel One Good Knight.

Maybe that's becoming the default shortening?

[Cynric]

I... But... Ugh. :smallannoyed:

I think the art upgrade did something to Roy's brain.

[HeeJay]

But really, it doesn't make sense for Roy to be that suspicious of the vampire right now. The only things he has to go on are the halfling who cried wolf's testimony, and possibly a sense of unease about his friend's transformation.

Roy did make a horrible judgement call with regards to Miko. It's quite plausible to assume he's learned his lesson, and will now pay more attention when his companions are telling him something he doesn't want to hear. He doesn't want to make the Miko mistake again.

(Too bad Durkula was cunning enough to construct his chant to fool possible eavesdroppers. Yes, it's forced and awkward, but such is life.)

[HeeJay]

In other news, I suspect this is Bandana's ex. Curvy, top fairly similar to the one Haley wears now, lives on the ship (so she could share a closet with B), and (here it gets super subjective) seems to have an immediate fraternal click with Roy (your agenda or lack thereof DOES color your perception of others' intentions, stereotypes be damned). I smell it in my gut, I do!


I like this conspiracy theory!

Also: "...we're taking orders from a kid..." - Wouldn't you hate it if your boss was replaced by your ex?

[The DeathKnight]

So wait is Andi and Sally the same person? Is Sally her first name and Andromeda her last, but she goes by her surname? Or vice versa

[Killer Angel]

(Too bad Durkula was cunning enough to construct his chant to fool possible eavesdroppers. Yes, it's forced and awkward, but such is life.)

We could even assume that it was somehow forced and awkward, because Durkula wasn't able to come up with something better...

[SiuiS]

Yeah, the chant doesn't do it for me. "Go Hel", sure that works. But "Know? Thor won't." Really?

Honestly, I read it like a conversation at first. Like Roy only heard one half of a phone call.

[Aharon]

Honestly, I read it like a conversation at first. Like Roy only heard one half of a phone call.

Is it possible that the comic shows the inflection that HPoH means, but that he actually gives his words the inflection that can be misunderstood? Hel isn't a godess of deception, but it would still be a good way to keep the masquerade ongoing :smallbiggrin:

Also, I think the chant would be a quite convincing prayer for a recently turned undead priest. It adds a forcefulness in wording the self-assured living priest wouldn't have needed before (Hell no!) and it deals with the deepest fears such a priest might have, equally forcefully denying them (Thor won't go!, i.e. Thor won't leave me/leave my side!).

[Edhelras]

Also, I have to say I am DELIGHTED that Andi is holding a screwdriver whilst saying "reversed polarity".

Me too - but WHY? Could someone from the physics department help me out?

Reverse gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm) - that's sensible and understandable, no problem with that. But this reversed polarity thing, it reminds me why I got those headaches back in high school...

Also, I think my personal romantic interested is on the verge of shifting from Haley. She's, you know, getting a bit ....old, Andi is new and exciting and hides alluringly behind her hair.... And I do like her outfit, and the way she smiles...

[Neoriceisgood]

That's a weird chant. :smalleek:

[t209]

So why am I seeing Andi Andromeda as Kaylee from Firefly?
So second astronomy based name (Starshine and Andromeda).

[Rack]

I quite liked it, OoTs has always been primarily a comedy to me and the reactions were entertaining. Nowhere near as good as Nale knot Not-Nale but still funny.

[Durkoala]

Worst punchline in a thousand strips.
Heh... they can't all be winners.

Hey! A thousand strips haven't passed yet! :smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So wait is Andi and Sally the same person? Is Sally her first name and Andromeda her last, but she goes by her surname? Or vice versa

My particular theory is that they are related. I really want to get an answer to this question soon.

[oppyu]

Worst punchline in a thousand strips.
Heh... they can't all be winners.
I dunno, I thought this punchline (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) was pretty unfunny as well.

[Neoriceisgood]

I dunno, I thought this punchline (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) was pretty unfunny as well.

... I was not expecting that.

[Zordrath]

Holy crap that was forced. Neither chant makes any kind of sense or sounds like something you'd expect Durkon to say. I liked the conversation between Andi and Roy, but the punchline was really lame.

[Keltest]

Im going to assume that the last panel was a typo the Giant chooses not to fix and he actually meant to say something like "Hel knows Thor will go."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Im going to assume that the last panel was a typo the Giant chooses not to fix and he actually meant to say something like "Hel knows Thor will go."

That doesn't really work with Roy's interpretation of the speech, though, and makes him look stupid as opposed to making the High Priest of Hel look very clever.

[Keltest]

That doesn't really work with Roy's interpretation of the speech, though, and makes him look stupid as opposed to making the High Priest of Hel look very clever.

I disagree. "Hell no, Thor wont go." sounds very similar to "Hel knows, Thor will go." It only really requires Durkon to be speaking the "s" in knows softly and Roy to mishear will as wont. Its at least as plausible as the idea that Durkon is chanting without any pause for breath or inflection on any of his words.

I have a difficult time convincing myself that "Roy dismisses all the oddities with Durkon's chant as Durkon being a strange bearded little man." is any more generous to Roy than "Roy legitimately mishears Durkon's chant through a door."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I disagree. "Hell no, Thor wont go." sounds very similar to "Hel knows, Thor will go." It only really requires Durkon to be speaking the "s" in knows softly and Roy to mishear will as wont. Its at least as plausible as the idea that Durkon is chanting without any pause for breath or inflection on any of his words.

I have a difficult time convincing myself that "Roy dismisses all the oddities with Durkon's chant as Durkon being a strange bearded little man." is any more generous to Roy than "Roy legitimately mishears Durkon's chant through a door."

Interestingly, your position looks fairly similar to mine, except you seem to dislike the wording in the last panel. I personally don't see it as all that awkward if you assume that the High Priest of Hel is doing it on purpose, and I think it makes Roy look better if he misinterpreted The High Priest of Hel's chant to something more logical as opposed to somehow mishearing it. Your idea is made somewhat less plausible by requiring The Giant to have made a daily large typo.

[Jay R]

I am not sure it is a misreading: per word from Rob, Durkula is vampire standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then musn't all vampires necessarily be binding the spirits of their body's original soul and enslaving their memories the way Durkon is bound and enslaved by HPoH?

Haley is rogue standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then mustn't all Rogues necessarily have red hair?

Elan is bard standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then mustn't all bards have evil twins who try to kill them?


Huh... didn't read that way to me at all. Unless an unrelated/barely acquainted man and woman can only be conversing for romantic and sexual reasons ?

Well, of course. You can see this principle in all the classics: Tristan and Yseulte, Romeo and Juliet, When Harry Met Sally, ...


Worst punchline in a thousand strips.

Really? You think it's worse than Baron Pineapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)?


Rich, you worked a bit to hard for that last panel. It is almost painful to read.

That being said, if someone would actually ever say something as cumbersome as that, it is phonetically exactly the same as what Roy thought he heard, just with a weird beat between "won't" and "go", and "hell" and "no". In fact, the flow of the two phrases are completely different, even if the phonetics are completely the same.

Of course, the flow disappears completely in a chant.

The HPoH knew he would have to spend time praying, and knew that Belkar was spreading suspicion. So he came up with a chant that made more sense if interpreted as a chant for Thor, but that he could actually use, with contorted grammar, as a chant for Hel.

Yes, it's tortured and awkward. But a successful ploy nonetheless.

[Keltest]

Interestingly, your position looks fairly similar to mine, except you seem to dislike the wording in the last panel. I personally don't see it as all that awkward if you assume that the High Priest of Hel is doing it on purpose, and I think it makes Roy look better if he misinterpreted The High Priest of Hel's chant to something more logical as opposed to somehow mishearing it. Your idea is made somewhat less plausible by requiring The Giant to have made a daily large typo.

I was attempting to be humorous with the typo thing. Maybe I should have said something like he momentarily lost control of his hands when writing that scene or something.

either way, in order for Roy to misinterpret the chant, HPoH would have to have no inflection on his words at all, and he would likely have to be pausing for breath between "go" and "Hel".

Part of my problem is there is no way for me to reconcile the way its written (ie presented as what HPoH means) with what he would have to be saying in order for Roy to misinterpret it. The punctuation makes me read it with the inflections he would have if saying it normally, but he couldn't be saying it like that.

[Pronounceable]

Everything except the punchline was good. The joke was just stupid. One of the few times comic really suffered from having to end on a joke or gag.

At least we know Roy wasn't %100 taken in. I hope this doesn't convince him either, due to how unfunny a joke it was.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I was attempting to be humorous with the typo thing. Maybe I should have said something like he momentarily lost control of his hands when writing that scene or something.

either way, in order for Roy to misinterpret the chant, HPoH would have to have no inflection on his words at all, and he would likely have to be pausing for breath between "go" and "Hel".

Part of my problem is there is no way for me to reconcile the way its written (ie presented as what HPoH means) with what he would have to be saying in order for Roy to misinterpret it. The punctuation makes me read it with the inflections he would have if saying it normally, but he couldn't be saying it like that.

I read as though he was chanting, with the punctuation showing what his intent was. So, Roy hears him chanting and, without any inflection, assumes he's saying one thing. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but Durkon's always been a little strange. In reality, what he means is something different. Sure, it doesn't make much sense, but I say give him points for being able to come up with a chant that doubles like that. If this interpretation doesn't work for you, oh well. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Socksy]

Is Andi the $5000 cameo?

$5000 cameo??


Sally is a nickname for Cassandromeda. :smallamused:

More seriously, both Andi and Sally are nicknames for (Cas)Sandra.

...Sally is short for Cassandra?!

Also, I will EEEEEEE into forever if her last name is Black (or Tonks).

[hamishspence]

...Sally is short for Cassandra?!

I thought that Cassandra could be shortened to Cassie, or to Sandra and then Sandy - but I don't remember seeing a story that shortens it to Sally.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

$5000 cameo??

For the Kickstarter, the reward for giving $5000 was a cameo in OOTS. I think we would've had some announcement of its fulfilment.

[Keltest]

$5000 cameo??



...Sally is short for Cassandra?!

Also, I will EEEEEEE into forever if her last name is Black (or Tonks).

You aren't able to squee at your house very often, are you?

[sengmeng]

I really don't think Sally and Andi are the same person; Bandana didn't need to call her Sally when Roy took the rope, because to Roy it wouldn't matter whether it was the man or the woman. Unless it's Sally Andromeda? But that wouldn't explain why she prefers to be called Andi, but Bandana calls her Sally. Unless she is Bandana's ex and therefore on first name basis with her but not Roy. I think they're twins and both mechanically inclined. However, Andi is patching holes in the side of the ship, which is undoubtedly less complicated than engine repair, which to me means she's not necessarily the same person. The conversation with Haley and Bandana made it sound like Bandana's ex went somewhere; otherwise, why leave a suit of armor in the closet?

[Nightcanon]

Me too - but WHY? Could someone from the physics department help me out?

Reverse gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm) - that's sensible and understandable, no problem with that. But this reversed polarity thing, it reminds me why I got those headaches back in high school...

Also, I think my personal romantic interested is on the verge of shifting from Haley. She's, you know, getting a bit ....old, Andi is new and exciting and hides alluringly behind her hair.... And I do like her outfit, and the way she smiles...

Doctor Who reference: I reversed the polarity of the neutron flow (flourishes sonic screwdriver). Originally a 3rd doctor quote I think, since become a bit of a recurring theme.*

[Jay R]

I dunno, I thought this punchline (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) was pretty unfunny as well.

And this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) was a lousy punch line. I hardly laughed at all.

[elros]

I don't think Roy's problem is his listen skill, but he probably doesn't have any skill ranks in Knowledge (Religion), so he could not interpret what Durkula's prayers. We know he has ranks in one cross-class knowledge skill (Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), but there are limits to how much a fighter can know.

I agree with the punchline being weak, but even Xykon admits "they can't all be winners, you know." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html)

[DominusMegadeus]

I've got to throw my hat in the ring for Roy here. You can't blame him for being a character in the story, no matter what his Wis/Int is.

I could see an argument for Haley being the one who should figure this con out, but Roy? He's not only incredibly afraid to fail as a leader, but also has the emotional hurdle of Durkon being his rock. Durkon is one of the strongest members and the most emotionally/mentally stable by far after V revealed his Vulcan impersonation had massive, gaping holes in it. Durkon was the one thing Roy didn't have keep an eye on or baby or break up fights for. He was weird and stuck in his ways, but the only time he ever needed Roy to restrain him was the tree-attack near the bandit camp. Roy is unwilling to accept the idea that his rock is gone, and in cases like today's strip, he didn't even need to be in denial. It was a perfectly valid interpretation of what he heard.

This isn't a poorly written arc, it's the best example of Rich sticking to character in the whole comic. If this was some random NPC who got 15 strips of jerking The Order around, I'd stomach complaints and probably even side with you all, but this right here is Durkon. This is just as valid as Nale's Elan Impersonation subplot, if not more so since Durkon deserved his own piece of the plot after so long.

[Darth Paul]

Also, looks like Andi a.k.a Andromeda is practicing ventriloquism in the first panel there.

Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed. I had to read the panel 3 times to figure out who was talking to Roy.

[Nenec]

Andi sure bought herself a ticket for survival, by revealing her name. Hurray for her! Also credit for "Sun-resistant vampires. Sounds like just what the world needs.", really good one.
Oh and you guys are right about her and Sally, really looks too much like the same person to be a coincidence. Twins maybe?

On another note, even with how much I dislike Roy, I agree that he was no fault here. The chant was a really clever trick, the Giant was really smart here and so was HPoH. I think even with higher skills, not falling into it would have really been hard. At least he tried..even though that "I know Belkar's wrong" kinda irks me.

[Skull the Troll]

[QUOTE=Emperor Time;18026108]That was a pretty good twist during the last panel. But still, Roy should listen more carefully in order to hear that Durkon was saying "know" instead of "no". Since if this keeps up then Vampire Durkon has a great chance in actually accomplishing Hel's wishes.[/QUOTe

Well they do sound identical so you cant hear the difference between them but you could certainly hear the difference in inflection. Just try to read that prayer out loud to yourself so that you can hear what Roy thinks he heard. Its pretty much impossible. That said said its a good joke, and I suppose that HPoH could have been saying it with Roy's inflection but secretly meaning his. Seems like the kind of lie an evil god would be ok with.

[factotum]

either way, in order for Roy to misinterpret the chant, HPoH would have to have no inflection on his words at all, and he would likely have to be pausing for breath between "go" and "Hel".


I disagree. When I was younger I always used to try and psych away headaches by repeating "I have not got a headache" to myself in my head, and if you keep repeating the same phrase like that, weird things happen--you start to unconsciously switch it around to "Got a headache, I have not" and stuff like that. HPoH could easily be doing the same thing in his monotonous repetition of the chant.

[Keltest]

I disagree. When I was younger I always used to try and psych away headaches by repeating "I have not got a headache" to myself in my head, and if you keep repeating the same phrase like that, weird things happen--you start to unconsciously switch it around to "Got a headache, I have not" and stuff like that. HPoH could easily be doing the same thing in his monotonous repetition of the chant.

So... huh? You disagree that he would have to be dropping all inflection because... he could be dropping all inflection?

[CaDzilla]

Roy's made the same kind of mistake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) before. His caution made him blinder to the truth. Sometimes you just have to be really smart to be really stupid.

[Skull the Troll]

I was attempting to be humorous with the typo thing. Maybe I should have said something like he momentarily lost control of his hands when writing that scene or something.

either way, in order for Roy to misinterpret the chant, HPoH would have to have no inflection on his words at all, and he would likely have to be pausing for breath between "go" and "Hel".

Part of my problem is there is no way for me to reconcile the way its written (ie presented as what HPoH means) with what he would have to be saying in order for Roy to misinterpret it. The punctuation makes me read it with the inflections he would have if saying it normally, but he couldn't be saying it like that.

He doesnt need to breathe, hes a vampire.

[ORione]

You guys must have hated that part in Romeo and Juliet where Romeo thought that Juliet was dead. How could he be so stupid? He should have known that she was under a sleep potion. Somehow.

It's called dramatic irony.

[Socksy]

You aren't able to squee at your house very often, are you?

I get "What is is THIS time? A kitten or a guinea pig?" :P

[Keltest]

He doesnt need to breathe, hes a vampire.

But he still needs to inhale to speak.

[Amarsir]

Im going to assume that the last panel was a typo the Giant chooses not to fix and he actually meant to say something like "Hel knows Thor will go."
Your poetic license on "typo" notwithstanding, I agree with you that'd be better. I'm totally down with the idea of Roy mishearing Durkon and taking solace in the mention of "Thor". The idea is solid. But the chosen chant was so awkward, on top of which cadence transmits easier than word specifics.

So yeah. "Hel knows Thor will go." Works for me.

Otherwise I liked the strip. Roy being suspicious but optimistic is better than Roy steadfastly refusing to notice character changes in his best friend. And a crew member had a very natural conversation with him, instead of conversation about conversing with drops of irrelevant backstory. Good enough.

[Vikenlugaid]

My question is: was Durkula chanting in private using Durkon's dwarven accent?
I see a fail here.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But he still needs to inhale to speak.

It may that he functions like Xykon where His voice is created by the negative energy that fuels him.


My question is: was Durkula chanting in private using Durkon's dwarven accent?
I see a fail here.

I didn't see any words that would have been accented.

[Gift Jeraff]

But he still needs to inhale to speak.

It's established in the OOTSiverse that the black speech balloons means their voice is generated by negative energy. Either in that early strip where Xykon doesn't join in the evil laughter or in SoD when he becomes a lich.

[Keltest]

My question is: was Durkula chanting in private using Durkon's dwarven accent?
I see a fail here.

The particular sentence sounds almost identical in Durkon's accent.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Hey, Firefly had a man named Jane. Sally could be just like Jane.

You've chosen an excellent reference. I am intrigued.


If I was a low level npc in OOTS and a protagonist walked by, I'd definitely introduce myself. I'm instantly elevated to named character and my odds of survival significantly improved.

That idea appeals to me, too.

Devil's advocate, though: there are also the people who get introduced by name and backstory, showing a charming and cheerful personality, only to get brutally slain when the midden hits the windmill. PC revenge follows.

That said, I'd find it preferable over being part of a nameless group of Fireball casualties in a panel 2 somewhere. And I still prefer your idea over either of those alternatives.

[Smolder]

That idea appeals to me, too.

Devil's advocate, though: there are also the people who get introduced by name and backstory, showing a charming and cheerful personality, only to get brutally slain when the midden hits the windmill. PC revenge follows.


Well, certainly if that protagonist turns out to be Belkar, I'd be better off keeping my mouth shut.

[Lexible]

Haley is rogue standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then mustn't all Rogues necessarily have red hair?

Elan is bard standard for the OotSiverse. If that is so, then mustn't all bards have evil twins who try to kill them?

You are using "standard" in a different sense than I was.



So why am I seeing Andi Andromeda as Kaylee from Firefly?
So second astronomy based name (Starshine and Andromeda).

Or not astronomy based name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_%28mythology%29).



...Sally is short for Cassandra?!

Sally can be a nickname for Sandra. Sandra can be a nickname for Cassandra.



He doesnt need to breathe, hes a vampire.

Doesn't need to eat birthday cake ever again, or to invest in an IRA, either. :smallwink:

[Lexible]

I cannot seem to delete this post.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Or not astronomy based name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_%28mythology%29).

The galaxy is named after her, though, so it's at least somewhat related, even if not actually taken from the galaxy's name.

[orrion]

roy you idiot :smallannoyed:. it's like he'll need to die again (via sever blood loss) before her understands. how do you get 'hell' from 'Hel' when YOU WERE HALF EXPECTING HIM TO SAY HEL?
also: what :confused:??? i think belkir's stab to the head broke something.

He was half-expecting him to say something not including Thor. He may not even know who Hel is, and hearing Thor throws him off anyway.

[Wou]

Yep, the last panel was rather weak, forced.
On the plus side I like the art, the ship looks more, well, shippy. Small rooms, cramped, wooden construction elements. Not some giant mostly empty space like Bandanas bedroom.

[Psyren]

Well, it's entirely possible this specific chant was formulated in case he was ever subjected to eavesdropping. With Durkon's accent, and tendency to send dissertations to comics apparently, it wouldn't seem that out of place to an outside observer compared to normal expectations.

Exactly. That 20+ Wis isn't there for show.

[AzraelX]

Considering the title, while I was reading I was like "Wait, really?! He's going to use a chant that will give away his true identity, in a place where he can be easily overheard, despite the fact he knows he can be overheard?!"

My suspension of disbelief was about to crack.

Luckily, it turns out the character wasn't completely stupid and chanted something which is easily misinterpreted (and can be easily defended to others if the need arises).

Imagine my surprise when I come on the forums and see "omg so forced!" It's like, what did you expect, for him to shout "ALL HAIL HEL, THE ONE TRUE GOD!" while people are doing construction work on the other side of a thin wooden door, on a ship full of people? Lol.

[Jay R]

My question is: was Durkula chanting in private using Durkon's dwarven accent?
I see a fail here.

If he's chanting an awkwardly phrased chant for the express purpose of fooling any eavesdroppers, then of course he will use Durkon's accent.

[Keltest]

Considering the title, while I was reading I was like "Wait, really?! He's going to use a chant that will give away his true identity, in a place where he can be easily overheard, despite the fact he knows he can be overheard?!"

My suspension of disbelief was about to crack.

Luckily, it turns out the character wasn't completely stupid and chanted something which is easily misinterpreted (and can be easily defended to others if the need arises).

Imagine my surprise when I come on the forums and see "omg so forced!" It's like, what did you expect, for him to shout "ALL HAIL HEL, THE ONE TRUE GOD!" while people are doing construction work on the other side of a thin wooden door, on a ship full of people? Lol.

he could have spoken softly. Between that and his staff you KNOW theres a joke to be made.

[Bluepaw]

Can't really blame the guy. I thought D's other spell was "Weather Control" for the longest time.

[Skull the Troll]

But he still needs to inhale to speak.

Then how does Xykon speak? Magic.

[Jon the Wizard]

I want to see these dissertations now. I am intrigued.

[Keltest]

Then how does Xykon speak? Magic.

Xykon is not a vampire. Not all undead are created equal.

[TheMiningDwarf]

A good Vampire in the Stickverse would presumably stop absorbing memories from its host (assuming that this process requires conscious intent on the vampire soul's part) so as not to result in the destruction of that soul. It may possibly choose self-destruction to free the host soul (if it was so good as to be on the self-sacrificing saint side of the spectrum), or perchance it might negotiate with its host an equitable way of sharing the body. Or, if the host soul was actually a very evil one, it might remain to suppress the host soul.

(Not predicting this in any way, but what a twist it would be if Durkon actually manages to talk the HPoH into turning Good and repudiating Hel, or if Roy's kindness moves it in a similar direction!)

It's probably been said before at this point but it's not the absorption of memories that damages the soul but the eternal dormancy that results in the vampire no longer needing to ask it's host any questions. If the vampire was Good or more likely Neutral it would most probably just involve the host in decision making a bit more often thereby keeping the host active just by talking to it, still not the best existence riding shotgun in your own body but better than being locked in the trunk.

[Katuko]

That pun was horrendous.

Seeing that Roy is actually having a hard time coping is good. I wonder how long this back-n-forth between the vampire and the rest of the team will last?

[ChowGuy]

:roy:I am Roy, the denier of reality. Fear my power.
:elan:Wait, but that's my job!

... *is bad at humor*


:roy: I am Roy! Fear the power of my intellect!
:elan: Ooooo. Good battle cry! Can I try it?
:roy: ?? *sigh* Don't worry, we already do.

[tomandtish]

This was a far more meaningful strip than it seems at first reading.

It establishes that Roy is (appropriately) uncertain of Durkon's loyalties and that he is bound to at some point realize that it is exceedingly odd that a supposedly non-theistic Cleric is supposedly praying to Thor.

Yeah... I guess it also establishes that Roy has no ranks on Knowledge: Religion. And that Celia will want to have a harsh talk with Roy in the future too.

Actually, I'm OK with this. Even if Roy understands how vampire clerics work (a very big if), I'm not sure there's anything that says Durkon couldn't pray to Thor just like any other person could pray to Thor. He doesn't gain any benefit from it as his prayers are no more effective than any lay-persons. But a non-theistic cleric could (in theory) offer general prayers to all the gods just like normals ("Thor, please ease up on the storm". "Oden, grant me insight". Etc.). Durkon can easily explain to Roy that while his power may come from another source now, his heart still belongs to Thor.

We (of course), know that is bull. But Roy might not.

[Peelee]

Doesn't need to eat birthday cake ever again, or to invest in an IRA, either. :smallwink:

My usual issues aside, why would that affect his funding an IRA? Vampires are still around in the world, and with good investiture over a long enough time frame, he could never need to worry about money ever again, and potentially live an opulent life with a steady supply of blood.

Point is, if you take that part literally, it's not affected by vampirism like the "no breathing" is.

[deuxhero]

I thought characters read speech bubbles in OotS verse?

[DaggerPen]

Can't really blame the guy. I thought D's other spell was "Weather Control" for the longest time.

Oh god, I am glad I am not the only one who made that mistake.

Anyway - I think Roy's mishearing was totally sensible given the chant. It's just - I donno, I saw the "Hell no! Thor won't go!" panel and started wondering what could have resulted in that mishearing. Seeing kind of a syntactically awkward punchline was a letdown after the expectation I'd built for myself. But the strip had enough other laugh lines and plot development, so it's really not a big issue to me.


I thought characters read speech bubbles in OotS verse?

Only sometimes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html)

[factotum]

So... huh? You disagree that he would have to be dropping all inflection because... he could be dropping all inflection?

Bad choice of wording--I meant that he quite possibly *would* be dropping all inflection in the sort of repetitive chanting he's doing; I thought you were implying that dropping inflection in that way would be unlikely, so sorry about the misunderstanding.

[Lexible]

My usual issues aside, why would that affect his funding an IRA? Vampires are still around in the world, and with good investiture over a long enough time frame, he could never need to worry about money ever again, and potentially live an opulent life with a steady supply of blood.

And Peelee whifs on the reference! :smallbiggrin:

[gerryq]

It's *still* kind of a weird prayer...

[Kish]

Bad choice of wording--I meant that he quite possibly *would* be dropping all inflection in the sort of repetitive chanting he's doing; I thought you were implying that dropping inflection in that way would be unlikely, so sorry about the misunderstanding.
As someone who didn't have an emotional investment in the Order abruptly going, "He's not Durkon! Stake him!" (or in Xykon suddenly being hit by a comet and destroyed, for that matter) and who doesn't really care about the plausibility or lack thereof of the latest "No, Guys, I Am Not Going To Just Drop This Storyline, Quit Reaching" memo from Rich, I find the idea of someone chanting in a monotone, "Go. Hel. Know. Thor. Won't. Go. Hel. Know. Thor. Won't." hilarious.

[Keltest]

Bad choice of wording--I meant that he quite possibly *would* be dropping all inflection in the sort of repetitive chanting he's doing; I thought you were implying that dropping inflection in that way would be unlikely, so sorry about the misunderstanding.

Its not so much that I find it implausible as I find the way Rich wrote the chant in the last panel to be a huge disconnect with how it would have to sound in order for Roy to misunderstand it.

[Amphiox]

3) Roy has claimed to be not another dumb fighter. If Belkar can figure it out, then not only should Roy figure it out, but should have a circumstantial bonus from Belkar's observations.

Belkar has not "figured" anything out, ie applied INT and WIS and whathaveyou to reason out a conclusion that then tests against reality and is found to be sufficiently close to the truth to be useful.

Belkar has made a gut-instinct prejudicial decision, like all the others he has made in his life, and this one happens to be closer to reality than what Roy currently believes. (It is DOUBTFUL Belkar actually knows that the HPoH is an alien parasite holding Durkon's soul hostage, or that it is a disciple of Hel, or that it has nefarious plans surrounding the gates/Thor/Dwarven Lands, or anything like that. Belkar most likely thinks it IS Durkon, but that Durkon has turned irredeemably evil, and when he calls HPoH a parasite, he is calling DURKON a parasite, because vampires are parasites on other living things.)

Belkar is the man in the blindfold who has been throwing a million darts in random directions all his life. One happens to hit somewhat close to the bullseye of the target, and this is that one.

He is the stopped clock that is still reads the correct time twice a day.

[Amphiox]

A random thoughts:

1. Assuming Roy's lack of knowledge about Religion thus far displayed is true, if he was suspecting HPoH to have switched to an evil god, he most likely would presume that it would be Loki, given his prior experience with Nale/Helga et al. He knows Hel exists, I think, but that was just in a throwaway conversation with Durkon. The more memorable interaction was with a follower of Loki. And it is only someone who is already expecting that HPoH is specifically worshipping Hel would be likely to twig in that it was "Hel" and not "Hell". Indeed, a nontheistic cleric who USED to be a cleric of Thor could easily say the same chant, EVEN if Thor had abandoned him. "Hell no Thor won't go" can easily be a mantra used by someone who is declaring that he will remain loyal to Thor even though Thor accept him as a cleric anymore (ie Thor won't "go" from his heart). Someone in that situation could also chant "Hell no Thor DON'T go" while meditating for nontheistic spells as an expression of a plea to Thor to let him back in the fold. And even the RIGHT hearing of it "Go Hel, Know Thor won't" can be said by someone still loyal to Thor, and mean "Go away and leave me alone, Hel. Please, please don't let Thor find out about this."

2. Another statement by Roy of interest is "before we get this sorted out", rather than "if we get this sorted out". It seems to suggest that Roy has been intending from the beginning to eventually find some way of getting the real Durkon back.

3. And for those few who still cling to the hope that Roy actually has figured out more than we have been shown, I offer you this possibility: Roy in fact has seen through this chant, but he knows the vampire has a much bigger listen bonus than him, so there is a good chance that the vampire can hear whatever he says outside that door. So he is saying what he thinks the vampire wants to hear him say. Double con!

[Reddish Mage]

Doesn't need to eat birthday cake ever again, or to invest in an IRA, either. :smallwink:

I beg to differ. With the right tax-advantaged investment plan an eternal existence can be made much more comfortable and sustainable.

[Keltest]

I beg to differ. With the right tax-advantaged investment plan an eternal existence can be made much more comfortable and sustainable.

Curiously, nobody ever seems to notice that the plans have been going on for hundreds of years.

[happycrow]

Chekhov's Facepalm-and-Belkar-Apology, on the mantlepiece and now available in .50 cal .....

[Gift Jeraff]

Belkar has not "figured" anything out, ie applied INT and WIS and whathaveyou to reason out a conclusion that then tests against reality and is found to be sufficiently close to the truth to be useful.

Belkar has made a gut-instinct prejudicial decision, like all the others he has made in his life, and this one happens to be closer to reality than what Roy currently believes. (It is DOUBTFUL Belkar actually knows that the HPoH is an alien parasite holding Durkon's soul hostage, or that it is a disciple of Hel, or that it has nefarious plans surrounding the gates/Thor/Dwarven Lands, or anything like that. Belkar most likely thinks it IS Durkon, but that Durkon has turned irredeemably evil, and when he calls HPoH a parasite, he is calling DURKON a parasite, because vampires are parasites on other living things.)

Belkar is the man in the blindfold who has been throwing a million darts in random directions all his life. One happens to hit somewhat close to the bullseye of the target, and this is that one.

He is the stopped clock that is still reads the correct time twice a day.

He doesn't think it's Durkon, he thinks it's a new being using Durkon's corpse.

[Tzevaot]

Can someone learn a spells from a staff?

Can he learns all the spells stored in the staff or just the ones he know are there?

[Onikani]

The REAL Durkon would have said:

"Go 'el. Thor dinnae know"

[werik]

That was the worst punchline ever.

[BannedInSchool]

OotS has been ruined forever.

[Blue indicates rhetoric. Whoops, wait. I mean blue indicates rhetoric.]

[orrion]

He doesn't think it's Durkon, he thinks it's a new being using Durkon's corpse.

He's got nothing to support it, though, and the only reason he thinks so is bias and a guilt trip.

So Amphiox's point still stands - Belkar hasn't reasoned anything out.

[zimmerwald1915]

He's got nothing to support it, though, and the only reason he thinks so is bias and a guilt trip.

So Amphiox's point still stands - Belkar hasn't reasoned anything out.
Belkar's reasoning looks like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html).

Premise: People don't change who they are in an instant.
Premise: Durkon appeared to change who he was, to a great degree, in an instant.
Conclusion: The person who appears to be Durkon cannot be Durkon.

There are any number of criticisms that can be leveled against this syllogism. Belkar may be reasoning from flawed premises. Belkar's reasoning might be a post-hoc rationalization for a conclusion he came to before evolving any sort of reasoned argument. But he has applied reason to the problem.

[theinsulabot]

you know, HPoH may have done that intentionally, but that doesn't change the fact that the joke just wasn't funny. it probably says plenty of good things that in the odd event that the giant lays an egg is worthy of note and all, but yeah. that just wasn't any good. I was sitting there staring at the punch line feeling like it should properly be accompanied by the sound of crickets and possibly someone in the dead silent audience coughing nervously.

[Lexible]

I beg to differ. With the right tax-advantaged investment plan an eternal existence can be made much more comfortable and sustainable.

And Reddish Mage wiffs on the references! :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

It's *still* kind of a weird prayer...

Yes, it's kind of a weird prayer -- on purpose.

The HPoH knows he needs to pray to Hel, and knows that the party is suspicious, so he needed to come up with a chant to Hel that could be interpreted as a chant to Thor.

It's supposed to be more easily interpreted as a prayer to Thor - that's its whole purpose.

[Spoomeister]

Meh. I also find myself in the camp that the punchline was forced, regardless of whether Durkula was doing this intentionally or not, and that it's disappointing that Roy continues to get dumbed down (even though it's been established he's rather smart in general, and esp. smart for a fighter) in order to make the plot work.

In this individual comic, it's sort of made up for by the very entertaining Doctor Who joke in the 5th panel (reversed polarity, character waves around a screwdriver, hee).

But in general it just confirms for me that the Durkula subplot is not one of my favorites in Rich's story overall, and it hasn't been working for me pretty much since they boarded the Mechane. I gave some leeway through the fights in the last book because the need to have the firepower for the moment was well handled, and a lot of dramatic possibilities were set up. How Rich is following through with (or just doing something very different with) that setup, just isn't doing it for me. Too many characters are having to suppress their brains and survival instincts (as professional adventurers!) to make it work, and the storyline of this being Durkon possessed by another entity as opposed to an actual vamped Durkon... ehhh.

Hopefully the beginning-of-book ramp up is almost set and we will get back to the race to the last gate. (Remember? Xykon? Redcloak? Those guys? All the cool stuff that happened before we got bogged down in 2/3rds of a book of Elan's Dad Is Invincible?) Or we won't and the story will take some other new turn that will be just as interesting. *shrug*

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The REAL Durkon would have said:

"Go 'el. Thor dinnae know"
We've seen him pronounce "Hel" before, so no there. I'm too lazy to check if he's said "won't" before, but I'm betting he has.

Yes, it's kind of a weird prayer -- on purpose.

The HPoH knows he needs to pray to Hel, and knows that the party is suspicious, so he needed to come up with a chant to Hel that could be interpreted as a chant to Thor.

It's supposed to be more easily interpreted as a prayer to Thor - that's its whole purpose.
+1.

[Keltest]

We've seen him pronounce "Hel" before, so no there. I'm too lazy to check if he's said "won't" before, but I'm betting he has.

+1.

even if he hasn't said "wont" before, it wouldn't translate to "dinnae" (ie Does Not) in his accent. It would be suspiciously similar to "wont".

[Angelalex242]

...Go Hel! Know, Thor won't.

Well, when the Stick Voting comes to this section, I won't vote for this one.

Go Hell No Thor Won't
Hell No Thor Won't Go

Meh.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...Go Hel! Know, Thor won't.

Well, when the Stick Voting comes to this section, I won't vote for this one.

Go Hell No Thor Won't
Hell No Thor Won't Go

Meh.

It will be extraordinarily amusing to see what kind of votes this strips get in the Stick Awards, since I will actually have forum context for them.

[Amphiox]

He doesn't think it's Durkon, he thinks it's a new being using Durkon's corpse.

Can you show me where in the comic that is actually made explicit?

Because that has not been how I've been reading the dialogue.

Belkar clearly thinks that HPoH has been magically changed by the vampirism process so much that it doesn't count as Durkon anymore, and should not be treated as Durkon anymore. But explicitly a "new being using Durkon's corpse" I do not recall seeing, other than perhaps as metaphor.

[Keltest]

Can you show me where in the comic that is actually made explicit?

Because that has not been how I've been reading the dialogue.

Belkar clearly thinks that HPoH has been magically changed by the vampirism process so much that it doesn't count as Durkon anymore, and should not be treated as Durkon anymore. But explicitly a "new being using Durkon's corpse" I do not recall seeing, other than perhaps as metaphor.

Its very much open to interpretation. Personally I don't believe that Belkar thinks that there is a new and separate entity controlling Durkon like a puppet rather than Durkon having been changed so much as to be a totally different person, but the dialogue supports both interpretations.

[Amphiox]

you know, HPoH may have done that intentionally, but that doesn't change the fact that the joke just wasn't funny. it probably says plenty of good things that in the odd event that the giant lays an egg is worthy of note and all, but yeah. that just wasn't any good. I was sitting there staring at the punch line feeling like it should properly be accompanied by the sound of crickets and possibly someone in the dead silent audience coughing nervously.

Humour is such... a *subjective* thing.

No one should be declaring that some joke "just wasn't funny", without affixing a "to me" to it.

Personally I did not find that particular part funny either, but I took that part of the strip to be a dramatic one, not a comedic one.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I knew I'd seen Andi before. She's the one who tells the crew not to interfere in third act duels at the start of the caster fight sequence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).

Edit: link Mended.

[Amphiox]

Its very much open to interpretation. Personally I don't believe that Belkar thinks that there is a new and separate entity controlling Durkon like a puppet rather than Durkon having been changed so much as to be a totally different person, but the dialogue supports both interpretations.

I agree with this and that was what I was intending to say. So let me change my previous state to:

"Belkar clearly thinks Durkon should not be treated as the old Durkon anymore, and furthermore should be treated as an evil enemy to be destroyed rather than an ally, but I do not see any narrative evidence that explicitly demonstrates that this is because he thinks there is now a separate entity controlling Durkon's body like a puppet* rather than something more metaphorical, such as him thinking Durkon has simply been unnaturally changed by the vampirism process too much and too abruptly to still count as Durkon anymore."

*And there is definitely no way in He(any number of L's) that Belkar could know or guess that Durkon's original soul is trapped in that body like a prisoner, rather than changed into another entity altogether or ejected in the vampirism process.

[Keltest]

Humour is such... a *subjective* thing.

No one should be declaring that some joke "just wasn't funny", without affixing a "to me" to it.

Personally I did not find that particular part funny either, but I took that part of the strip to be a dramatic one, not a comedic one.

If it was meant to be a dramatic strip, a punchline like that was not especially necessary. Durkon could have been muttering his chant quietly enough that Roy wouldn't be able to hear it through a door. Or he could have heard Roy, gotten up, and asked if something was happening. Or he could have heard Roy and started fake praying to Thor until he left.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I knew I'd seen Andi before. She's the one who tells the crew not to interfere in third act duels at the start of the caster fight sequence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).

Edit: link Mended.

That's a good spot. I wonder if this helps or not with the confusion about Sally.

[Amphiox]

If it was meant to be a dramatic strip, a punchline like that was not especially necessary. Durkon could have been muttering his chant quietly enough that Roy wouldn't be able to hear it through a door. Or he could have heard Roy, gotten up, and asked if something was happening. Or he could have heard Roy and started fake praying to Thor until he left.

You can only make that judgment after the plot thread is fully complete. Because there may have been a dramatic reason for the "punchline" (which I do not consider a punchline). For example, when Roy ultimately realizes the truth about the vampire, one of the lines of evidence that lead him to that conclusion may be remembering the chant he heard in this strip and just how awkward it sounds. Or the vampire may slip up in a future strip when he says some combination of "Hell", "know" or "Thor" in front of Roy a manner different enough from how he said it in this strip that Roy twigs in.

In which case this strip is dramatic foreshadowing, and the groan-worthy awkwardness of it was deliberate, and very much necessary in a dramatic sense.

Indeed the groan-worthy awkwardness could be deliberately done, to make the audience focus on the groan-worthiness of it, so as to miss the narrative plot-relevant implications, making the impact of the later reveal all the more powerful.

[Keltest]

You can only make that judgment after the plot thread is fully complete. Because there may have been a dramatic reason for the "punchline" (which I do not consider a punchline). For example, when Roy ultimately realizes the truth about the vampire, one of the lines of evidence that lead him to that conclusion may be remembering the chant he heard in this strip and just how awkward it sounds. Or the vampire may slip up in a future strip when he says some combination of "Hell", "know" or "Thor" in front of Roy a manner different enough from how he said it in this strip that Roy twigs in.

In which case this strip is dramatic foreshadowing, and the groan-worthy awkwardness of it was deliberate, and very much necessary in a dramatic sense.

Indeed the groan-worthy awkwardness could be deliberately done, to make the audience focus on the groan-worthiness of it, so as to miss the narrative plot-relevant implications, making the impact of the later reveal all the more powerful.

Id like to believe Rich would never exploit his readers in that manner, but im afraid that after Malack and the HPoH I can never trust Rich not to suddenly spring a plot twist that's been vaguely hinted at for like 80 strips at us from out of nowhere anymore.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, we've now got both "can we move on to the main plot already?" and "the Giant is a better writer than that." At least we made it to page 8 this time.

[Beige]

He's got nothing to support it, though, and the only reason he thinks so is bias and a guilt trip.

So Amphiox's point still stands - Belkar hasn't reasoned anything out.

except Belkar makes several points about gained information here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html)

to go back to a purely dnd point of view: a passed sense motive test will let you know someones lying. you don't have evidence, but you know their lying. It's still something you have deduced. Belkar, from noticing how durkon acts, has deduced he is not durkon.

yes, Belkar does not know durkula is the high priest of hel. that is irrelivant. he knows that's not durkon

[Kish]

to go back to a purely dnd point of view: a passed sense motive test will let you know someones lying.
Did...did you just imply Belkar passed a Sense Motive check? Against anyone, much less someone with +8 in Bluff?

[zimmerwald1915]

to go back to a purely dnd point of view
A tip for a Halfling in the Playground: don't do this unless you want a lot of unjustified scorn heaped on your head.


Did...did you just imply Belkar passed a Sense Motive check? Against anyone, much less someone with +8 in Bluff?
I am...too late.

:smallfrown:

[ellindsey]

Did...did you just imply Belkar passed a Sense Motive check? Against anyone, much less someone with +8 in Bluff?

Clearly, Belkar's player is metagaming and using OOC knowledge. Roy, on the other hand, is faithfully adhering to the failed Sense Motive check he made in today's strip.

[Porthos]

Did...did you just imply Belkar passed a Sense Motive check? Against anyone, much less someone with +8 in Bluff?

Anyone can roll a Nat 20.


Well, we've now got both "can we move on to the main plot already?" and "the Giant is a better writer than that."

Hey, that's my line! :smallwink: Ah, well. I've been busy elsewhere, so I suppose it's all good. :smalltongue:

[Lyese]

I guess I should be more careful when I'm posting. I didn't think people would seriously think Roy is a playa, or that I would infer that.

:belkar: Never say "playa" again.

[Angelalex242]

I guess I should be more careful when I'm posting. I didn't think people would seriously think Roy is a playa, or that I would infer that.

:belkar: Never say "playa" again.

Yeeeeah, Roy's Lawful Good. He is likely to be perfectly loyal to Celia. As well he should be! I'd be loyal too if my lover could throw lightning bolts around on a whim. ;)

[Lyese]

Yeeeeah, Roy's Lawful Good. He is likely to be perfectly loyal to Celia. As well he should be! I'd be loyal too if my lover could throw lightning bolts around on a whim. ;)

Or cast spells as an equivalent-hd Sorcerer. :)

[Angelalex242]

In other news, Odin was probably trying to send Thor to fight war he'd really rather not, so hey, 'hell no, he won't go...' ;)

[theNater]

But he has applied reason to the problem.
Belkar has not reached a viable conclusion through reason, which is what I take the phrase "reasoned something out" to mean.

except Belkar makes several points about gained information here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html)
Right, if by "gained information" you mean "one claim Belkar made up". Durkula was ordered to drink Belkar's blood while magically compelled, and that order was immediately followed by the order not to drink it all. Belkar has no evidence that Durkula would have gone for him if not ordered to do so, nor that the order to leave him alive was necessary.

[Amphiox]

except Belkar makes several points about gained information here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html)


What Belkar did in that strip is classic "cherry picking".

Cherry picking is not an example of "reasoning something out".

Cherry picking is an example of wanting to *look* like you reasoned something out, either to another or to yourself, that you in fact presupposed but do not want to admit that you did so.

[Unisus]

Just a question from a non-native speaker: i looked at several places and listened to various speakers, but i could not distinguish if someone says "no" or "know". Is there some reason why people say Roy must be dumb to mistake the one for the other?