The Flash on CW

[Dragonexx]

So I thought I'd make a thread about this since it airs tomorrow. Hopes, ideas, fears, questions?

[Seerow]

It airs tomorrow? I thought it wasn't starting until next week?

[Dragonexx]

Huh, whoops. Don't know where i got my information. None the less, any interest?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well I like Arrow so I'll certainly give it a chance,

[Metahuman1]

I like Arrow so I'll watch it if I can find time. I fear it's gonna be dark and brooding though cause DC and WB have declare there official position is that super hero's are intrinsically serious business and they don't want humor being used much or at all in there stuff.


That use to be a Marvel problem and one of these day's I'm gonna figure out what happened.

[Joran]

I like Arrow so I'll watch it if I can find time. I fear it's gonna be dark and brooding though cause DC and WB have declare there official position is that super hero's are intrinsically serious business and they don't want humor being used much or at all in there stuff.


That use to be a Marvel problem and one of these day's I'm gonna figure out what happened.

First stab: The really popular Marvel movie in the mid-2000's was Iron Man, which had a sense of humor while the really popular DC movies in the mid-2000's were the Christopher Nolan Batman movies, which were ultra-serious.

So, each company is sticking to the tone that worked for their major money maker.

[Metahuman1]

I meant the comic books. It use to be that Marvel characters existed to just have endless churn and torment in there lives. Got close to someone? Dead. Made Choice A? Choice B was the right one, city got leveled, tough luck. Ext.

DC, by contrast, the hero's could generally actually win. Supporting characters were more then just canon fodder for A listers to Angst about.



Somewhere along the way, that switched. Marvel are the light hearted funny one's when Joe Quesada 1 or 2 other outliers are safely chained in the basement and out of the way, And DC have adopted the no humor serious business all the time approach.

[Pex]

I do hope they don't make it a teen angst melodrama. I also hope they don't find flimsy excuses to have the main star have his shirt off all the time. Previews already showed it happening once, but the blatant sexploitation of The Tomorrow People was annoying and will not help the show. They are well aware of The Flash tv show from 1990 and wanted to pay homage. They reached out to John Wesley Shipp to be involved in the show, and he agreed. He'll play Barry Allen's father. If only Amanda Pays was the mother! Still, she may yet make an appearance.

[Jayngfet]

The pilot actually leaked like three months ago. It was solid, and it used Arrow's momentum to build up it's own larger plot more quickly. They took things pretty gritty but were open that they'd go camp later on.

[Dragonexx]

The "leaked" pilot was good, and definitely did its job of getting me hyped up for the show. As for the tone, from the look of things it will probably be a mix of the two. It had it's dark moments, but also it's lighthearted moments as well.

[AnonymousX]

I'm def. looking forward to seeing this on Tues. Flash, and speedsters in general actually, are my fave type of characters.

[The New Bruceski]

I also hope they don't find flimsy excuses to have the main star have his shirt off all the time. Previews already showed it happening once, but the blatant sexploitation of The Tomorrow People was annoying and will not help the show.

CW casting: the ugly people are "only" underwear models. Aside from that though Arrow was solid and I'll definitely give Flash a gander.

[Dragonexx]

So it's aired now, what think? Also, it appears that next weeks villian is Mob Rule?

[Pex]

So far so good. Staple introduction to the character, obligatory cameo to showcase the spin-off. It is interesting they are not going heavy on the secret identity angle. Still remains to be seen if they go heavy drama or superhero genre. Heavy drama isn't bad, just an observation of show type.

[Kitten Champion]

It was a pilot. It felt very pilot-y in every sense. Pacing was really quick to hit all the points they needed, it established the cast and basic conflict of the series with the meta-humans, lots of exposition dumps thrown out to get them out of the way, a basic showcase of the visual effects, and finally showing that it's tied into Arrow for those unaware, basic pilot stuff.

I'll watch a few more episodes to develop a real opinion, but I do like that it isn't trying to be Arrow... on the other hand I have to say the guy who plays Flash looks like he's about 15 which is kind of an issue to my suspension of disbelief.

I hate CW casting. it never lets you forget you're watching a television show.

[The New Bruceski]

The opening of "see that red blur? That's me. And me. And me. And me again." was exactly the tone I was hoping for. I mostly go off JLU Flash and I really wanted them to keep that sense of fun.

[Pex]

Since I keep making a point of it . . .

Shirtless scene was relatively brief and wasn't dwelled upon, with an ok macho joke. Have to wait for further episodes to see how they handle this issue, ideally not being handled/an issue at all.

Let's just say The Tomorrow People really ticked me off about this. :smallyuk:

[Thrawn183]

I watched it.

It wasn't bad. Heck some of it was even interesting.

Then time travel.

**** time travel.

I'm not watching any more of this show.

Why does it always have to be ****ing time travel!?

[Ravian]

Well traditionally the Flash has dealt with time travel much more than other DC heroes (with a few exceptions, such as Booster Gold). Basically he's fast enough that he can potentially break dimensional barriers, and has time traveled in the comics on multiple occasions. Doesn't help that when Barry Allen died he joined with the speed force and went back in time to be the lightning bolt that turned him into the Flash in the first place.

I'm not saying it's a good thing to have time travel, but there is sort of a precedent for time travel and the Flash.

[TheOldCrow]

I just watched the pilot. It was utterly predictable, but fun. I will definitely be watching episode 2 to see how it shapes up.


I'm not saying it's a good thing to have time travel, but there is sort of a precedent for time travel and the Flash.

Yeah. I generally hate time travel stuff and automatically downgrade the score of anything that involves time travel, but there are a few things that get a pass because its expected. I think the Flash falls in that category-- but I still hope they do it well. Time travel is so often not done well. Its very existence is problematic.

[Dragonexx]

Arrow was good, So I'll give this show the benefit of the doubt and keep watching, timetravel or not.

[Foeofthelance]

I watched it.

It wasn't bad. Heck some of it was even interesting.

Then time travel.

**** time travel.

I'm not watching any more of this show.

Why does it always have to be ****ing time travel!?

Because it was time travel from the very beginning of the episode.

In the comics, Barry's first wife and mother were both killed by the same man, Eobard Thawne, also known as Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom. Starting from the first scenes of the fight around his mother, it was pretty evident that they were going to be using him as one of the core villains. The scene at the end of the episode, where he is looking at the newspaper from the future, just sort of cemented that.

[Jayngfet]

We knew it'd be time travel from the Arrow crossover. Barry shows up and talks about a thing that exactly matches a guy with time travel as his M.O., complete with all the effects? You bet your ass he's fighting a dude from the future.

It's something they planned for from day one and they're already shooting. We've already seen the reverse flash suit.

[AnonymousX]

I liked it. It moved a bit fast and there was some stuff I wish they had showed more and not rushed through, but overall? I liked it. It did what it was supposed to and got me hooked.

Question: How many special effects tricks do they have for super speed? I think I've only seen the same 5 effects used, which is the motion blur, speed streak, sped up footage, teleportation speed effect, and the slo/stop motion effect. Oh and this is just in general, not just for this show. Like, in tv and movie media how many effects for super speed have you seen?

[grolim]

I liked it. It moved a bit fast


Uh-huh. I see what you did there.

[endoperez]

Question: How many special effects tricks do they have for super speed? I think I've only seen the same 5 effects used, which is the motion blur, speed streak, sped up footage, teleportation speed effect, and the slo/stop motion effect. Oh and this is just in general, not just for this show. Like, in tv and movie media how many effects for super speed have you seen?

That's a weird question. It's kinda like saying that you can only draw a face from the front, right or left, or above, or below. Are you interested in hearing that a face can also be drawn as a reflection in a mirror, or as a shadow on a wall... or would you rather see the best face drawings?


Any way...

Various tricks with an analog clock - starting, stopping or opening a pocket watch, stopping a clock or having it go superfast etc.

Various sounds, such as a plain old clock-ticking noise. Or a sound being stopped mid-way, such as a church bell's ringing stopping mid-strike. Or background music stopping. The very low, deep NOOOOO shout is a classic too.

A scene changing very rapidly with most things staying the same, e.g. a shop window changing from summer swimsuits to winter furs etc. several times.

Pages of a calendar flying off.

The character being seen at several points in the same scene at once, often with one instance looking more normal and others looking ghostly, transparent or immaterial. Could be all of them in different places, or the ghost-doubles trailing after the real one.

This is text (so not a visual thing) but IIRC in a Discworld book a clock was going tick t-

A flash of light, as in a camera, happening just before time stops or changes.

Hue shift - blue, gray or sepia overlays over the stopped or slowed-down scene are rather common.

-ock but stopped mid-scene when the trouble happened.

[Demon 997]

Haven't seen the Flash yet, though I enjoyed the cameo on Arrow. Looking forward to checking it out once I finish my Arrow binge.

Is there a thread for Arrow on the forums? I looked and couldn't find one, but maybe I missed it.

[Pex]

Interesting scene at the end of the pilot with Barry talking to his dad, played by John Wesley Shipp. In show it was all good and normal. Metashow it had to be done on purpose as a metaphorical passing the torch from the old Flash to the new one. It's an easter egg to the fans of the old show and much appreciated.

Anecdote: Mark Hamill first used his Joker voice playing The Trickster on the original Flash.

[AnonymousX]

That's a weird question. It's kinda like saying that you can only draw a face from the front, right or left, or above, or below. Are you interested in hearing that a face can also be drawn as a reflection in a mirror, or as a shadow on a wall... or would you rather see the best face drawings?


Any way...

Various tricks with an analog clock - starting, stopping or opening a pocket watch, stopping a clock or having it go superfast etc.

Various sounds, such as a plain old clock-ticking noise. Or a sound being stopped mid-way, such as a church bell's ringing stopping mid-strike. Or background music stopping. The very low, deep NOOOOO shout is a classic too.

A scene changing very rapidly with most things staying the same, e.g. a shop window changing from summer swimsuits to winter furs etc. several times.

Pages of a calendar flying off.

The character being seen at several points in the same scene at once, often with one instance looking more normal and others looking ghostly, transparent or immaterial. Could be all of them in different places, or the ghost-doubles trailing after the real one.

This is text (so not a visual thing) but IIRC in a Discworld book a clock was going tick t-

A flash of light, as in a camera, happening just before time stops or changes.

Hue shift - blue, gray or sepia overlays over the stopped or slowed-down scene are rather common.

-ock but stopped mid-scene when the trouble happened.

Huh? Me saying I've only seen the same five for super speed wasn't a insult or anything. I was just wondering if there was other super speed effects for running besides the ones I listed is all.


Interesting scene at the end of the pilot with Barry talking to his dad, played by John Wesley Shipp. In show it was all good and normal. Metashow it had to be done on purpose as a metaphorical passing the torch from the old Flash to the new one. It's an easter egg to the fans of the old show and much appreciated.

Anecdote: Mark Hamill first used his Joker voice playing The Trickster on the original Flash.

Considering they brought in John Wesley Shipp and Amanda Pays from the 90's Flash series, do you think they'll bring in others from that series? Specifically, is it too much to ask for to see Mark Hamill in this show?

[Pex]

I think I read somewhere that Mark Hamill is currently busy with some project in England. :smallwink:

[TheEmerged]

Since I haven't watched Arrow before...

...has Simon Stagg, AKA Metamorpho's father-in-law, been established already?

So, typed that mid-episode. Well, okay then...

[Dragonexx]

So i might have missed it, but does anyone know what they did with all of Multiplex's extra bodies?

Otherwise, a good episode.

[Ravian]

So i might have missed it, but does anyone know what they did with all of Multiplex's extra bodies?

Otherwise, a good episode.

Huh I forgot about that, there was no real implication that they would just go away upon his death. I suppose they would just go inert upon his death, considering that they wouldn't get any more signals from the prime. I suppose it was a busy day at the morgue. (though that would implicate that metahumans wouldn't remain a secret any more, if a bunch of clones suddenly showed up at.) Maybe Star Labs just quietly removed all the extra corpses thanks to their relation with Chief West.

[grolim]

What do you think they put in Barry's energy bars? Meta-human making energy infused soylent green.

[Antonok]

What do you think they put in Barry's energy bars? Meta-human making energy infused soylent green.

nuts, potatoes, coconut milk. High calorie/high carb, probably taste nasty as hell.

Do wonder what the exact calorie amount he'd have to consume to keep stable is though.

[BWR]

What do you think they put in Barry's energy bars? Meta-human making energy infused soylent green.

Soylent brown (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/japanese-scientists-creates-meat-out-of-feces/)wouldn't surprise me.
Second episode was pretty decent. I'm getting a bit tired of the teen soap opera stuff Flash and Arrow throw out but I can't really complain much about the superhero stuff. Except maybe how there are so many people who know the secret identity right off the bat now. Call me traditionalist but I would have preferred a bit fewer, even if I can understand the benefit of having an Oracle-wannabe at a computer while you're out doing stuff.

[AnonymousX]

Soylent brown (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/japanese-scientists-creates-meat-out-of-feces/)wouldn't surprise me.
Second episode was pretty decent. I'm getting a bit tired of the teen soap opera stuff Flash and Arrow throw out but I can't really complain much about the superhero stuff. Except maybe how there are so many people who know the secret identity right off the bat now. Call me traditionalist but I would have preferred a bit fewer, even if I can understand the benefit of having an Oracle-wannabe at a computer while you're out doing stuff.

*sigh* Yes! Two episodes in and I'm already bored of the pining/love triangle combo that apparently must be in every cw show. Just give dude someone else until you're ready to let them be together. Or just let him move on. It really doesn't matter to me as long as the pining stuff stops. It's already icky enough that they keep referring to her as a pseudo sister and about how he slept two doors down or whatever from her. I also agree about the secret identity stuff. Arrow had a bunch of people find out in the first season alone didn't it? I hope this doesn't become a thing on this show. I don't even get why he keeps taking his cowl off anyway in this episode.

But yeah despite that I'm really enjoying how fun and light this show is. I especially loved the opening and it poking fun at arrows's little beginning vo. And when Cisco and Barry got caught superheroing by Caitlin and tried to play it off. One thing I didn't get though was Barry saying he tried to save Danton, when he actually was just watching him fall lol. He couldn't have zipped to the outside of the building and caught him?

[TheEmerged]

nuts, potatoes, coconut milk. High calorie/high carb, probably taste nasty as hell.

Do wonder what the exact calorie amount he'd have to consume to keep stable is though.

Oh no someone didn't - of all times for fail my Will roll...

Well, XKCD\What If? haven't covered it.

One calorie counter tool I found said that to power someone weighing ~175 running for two hours at 14 MPH (the highest the tool would go) would burn 3834 calories. An adult male should be getting about 2550 calories a day per a cursory web search. So pending me finding a way to determine more ridiculous calorie burns, I'd say it easily goes over what a person would eat in a day or three.

[grolim]

One thing I didn't get though was Barry saying he tried to save Danton, when he actually was just watching him fall lol. He couldn't have zipped to the outside of the building and caught him?

And get flattened by him. Second ep in so he does not have the cool powers like making a vortex to slow falling, or trying to run up and down the side of the building.

[AnonymousX]

And get flattened by him. Second ep in so he does not have the cool powers like making a vortex to slow falling, or trying to run up and down the side of the building.

I didn't mean run down the side of the building though. I meant take the stairs and actually get there before he hits the ground and save him?

[Gray Mage]

I didn't mean run down the side of the building though. I meant take the stairs and actually get there before he hits the ground and save him?

And then die all the same and probably break Barry's arms. From that height, falling on a pool would probably kill him.

[Ravian]

I didn't mean run down the side of the building though. I meant take the stairs and actually get there before he hits the ground and save him?

Yeah it's a sad fact that a lot of that swooping in an resucing the falling victim in comic books is severely innacurate. (As spidey himself discovered...). Falling from a tall building is typically lethal, landing on a human being instead of concrete is generally only going to add one to the death toll rather than substract from it. Flash generally only gets away with it through specialized use of his speed, like a vortex. And as of yet Barry hasn't figured much beyond move fast and stop tornadoes. (admittedly an impressive feat in of itself). I don't think he's even tried water-running yet.

Still we'll see if they ever get to some of the really crazy things they've done with super-speed. Wall and Water-running are child's play, and given the themes at play we can sort of figure time travel via speed force will enter in at some point. Wonder if they'll bring in phasing through solid objects via vibration at some point.

[AnonymousX]

And then die all the same and probably break Barry's arms. From that height, falling on a pool would probably kill him.

What about moving his arms fast enough and yanking him back inside? There must have been something he could do besides watch the guy fall.

[AnonymousX]

Yeah it's a sad fact that a lot of that swooping in an resucing the falling victim in comic books is severely innacurate. (As spidey himself discovered...). Falling from a tall building is typically lethal, landing on a human being instead of concrete is generally only going to add one to the death toll rather than substract from it. Flash generally only gets away with it through specialized use of his speed, like a vortex. And as of yet Barry hasn't figured much beyond move fast and stop tornadoes. (admittedly an impressive feat in of itself). I don't think he's even tried water-running yet.

Still we'll see if they ever get to some of the really crazy things they've done with super-speed. Wall and Water-running are child's play, and given the themes at play we can sort of figure time travel via speed force will enter in at some point. Wonder if they'll bring in phasing through solid objects via vibration at some point.

@Bold: Too soon. Gwen Stacey was awesome!

But yeah, I didn't really apply real world stuff to my question which is why I thought he could have caught him. But I get what you're saying. I just thought he could have tried something, anything, other than watching him fall. But I can't wait to see Barry running on water and doing the phasing through objects trick. From what I remember they showed the phasing through objects trick in the 90's Flash, when he got hit by those drugs and vibrated so fast he went through the wall.

[Ravian]

@Bold: Too soon. Gwen Stacey was awesome!


She's been dead since the 70s... though she was indeed awesome.

[AnonymousX]

She's been dead since the 70s... though she was indeed awesome.

I thought you was referring to Gwen recently just dying in the Amazing Spider-man series. Which is why I had said too soon.

[Flickerdart]

Does it bug anyone else how inconsistent the Flash's speed is? One moment he's going 350 miles an hour (kind of mild - though he admits as much), the next he can go on a monologue between heartbeats, and later still he's slow enough to be boxed in by six guys. I realize that the whole "time stands still" special effect is cool, and that if he could actually fight that fast then he would wreck every opponent he faced, but at least lip service to consistency would be nice.

And the whole Multiplex thing was also dumb - sure, a person who can spawn hundreds of clones and replace fallen soldiers with new ones would be impressive, but at first he was literally just six people and everyone was freaking out about how powerful he was.

[BWR]

Does it bug anyone else how inconsistent the Flash's speed is?
Yes. It bugs me in the portrayal of just about every speedster ever. They are so fast they really should only be stopped by things they literally cannot move. Everything else they should be able to work around, even if it means running across town, picking up a sledge hammer and running back and whacking something to pieces.

[Flickerdart]

You could conceivably have speedsters who aren't that fast. Someone who can move quickly enough to duck around punches and dodge when a gun's pointed at him but before the shooter can pull the trigger would still be a legitimate superhero, but they wouldn't be invincible by any measure.

[BWR]

You could conceivably have speedsters who aren't that fast. Someone who can move quickly enough to duck around punches and dodge when a gun's pointed at him but before the shooter can pull the trigger would still be a legitimate superhero, but they wouldn't be invincible by any measure.

Sure, but how often is that the case? Mostly it's a bunch of inconsistently speeded people who can move ridiculously fast except when facing people who should pose no threat, simply because the writers don't think things through. To a certain extent you just have to ignore it and carry on but it would be nice if some writers tried to think things through.

[estradling]

Sure, but how often is that the case? Mostly it's a bunch of inconsistently speeded people who can move ridiculously fast except when facing people who should pose no threat, simply because the writers don't think things through. To a certain extent you just have to ignore it and carry on but it would be nice if some writers tried to think things through.

It might be poor storytelling... But there is also another options with inexperienced speedsters which Berry is right now. That is they have to choose to act. Fear, confusion, being mentally stunned and all that type of stuff lock him down until he overcomes it.

The show has been very clear that Berry is not a good fighter and he needs confidence to win. So when Multiplex got him and beat him up I could see that as Berry being afraid and turtling instead of running. Which ends poorly for him. In fact during that I was yelling at the TV screen "Your faster then that get up and run." Which he did.. eventually.

It could be good if they show him growing out of the fear paralyzing him. The question is... will he? After he gets some experience? If it still happens then it could very well be poor writing

[Kitten Champion]

I don't have much to say about the show. It's pretty trite. Really reminds me of late Smallville. It's mostly harmless though and I think fills a genuine niche on television. Maybe they'll get better at writing as it goes on, I don't think I can watch this much longer if its this same cookie-cutter programming.

Honestly, they'd get serious bonus points from me if they stopped writing the Star Lab scientist/technician woman as an obnoxious exposition machine.


Yes. It bugs me in the portrayal of just about every speedster ever. They are so fast they really should only be stopped by things they literally cannot move. Everything else they should be able to work around, even if it means running across town, picking up a sledge hammer and running back and whacking something to pieces.

He was going so fast as to be imperceptible, with him giving an entire monologue in just a few milliseconds... but he has trouble with what is just a bunch of mundane guys? At this point he should be like Quicksilver from Days of Future Past, merrily going about poking people to unconsciousness.

I don't really care about his powers, I mean, not really. It just gives me the vibe that the writers are just going to do whatever they want regardless of the sense it makes, especially as the series goes on, since it's comic books. I'd just like them to try, a little.

[Jayngfet]

Keep in mind he's been on the job for like two weeks by this point. A speedforce master he is not.

[Foeofthelance]

Simpler answer, I think, is that whatever field that allows him to grab a person trapped in a fire while going mach 2 without turning them into chunky salsa applies to the villains as well. He gets close enough, the field extends out to them, giving them the chance to strike back. The longer he stays in the immediate area, the more opportunity they have. If he just does a run by, you get the "exploding crowd" shot as they snap in out of the field too quick to take advantage. If he hangs out to try and punch them into submission, then they can punch back.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Huh I forgot about that, there was no real implication that they would just go away upon his death. I suppose they would just go inert upon his death, considering that they wouldn't get any more signals from the prime. I suppose it was a busy day at the morgue. (though that would implicate that metahumans wouldn't remain a secret any more, if a bunch of clones suddenly showed up at.) Maybe Star Labs just quietly removed all the extra corpses thanks to their relation with Chief West.

Or his consciousness will transfer to one of the surviving clones so they can have a reoccurring villain. Assuming he didn't pull a last minute body swap to begin with.

[AnonymousX]

I don't think they thought much of that scene with Iris beyond it being a "cool way for Barry to tell Iris how he feels without her hearing", and not really thinking that they've showed him moving way faster than he's been shown so far. Basically it was just for that shipping moment for those who ship Iris and Barry.

[tomandtish]

What do you think they put in Barry's energy bars? Meta-human making energy infused soylent green.

Well, it could explain...

How they'll get rid of all the extra bodies from episode 2....

[comicshorse]

I'd agree it all seems a bit bland so far but I'm really liking Dr Wells as the evil mentor so I'm prepared to give it longer to find its feet after all not every series can hit the ground running

[grolim]

I just worry that they are introducing Ronnie Raymond. Firestorm would be even worse than flash for a special effect appearance. Though I liked his original run.

[Drakeburn]

I've only seen the second episode, but to me it seems alright. I'd like to join the angry mob when it comes to the Flash's secret identity discovered too soon. When it comes to the Flash from the 1990's, at least Barry is actually trying to guard his secret identity. Only a Star Labs scientist, a Private Investigator (I think), and an old vigilante learned of his secret identity. While there was one episode where everybody sees that Barry is the Flash, it was a time travel episode, so I shouldn't let that bother me too much.

I can just go on and on about how the 1990's Flash series is better compared to the 2014 Flash.

Heck, if these two got into a fight, I'd be betting my money on the Flash from the 1990's series.

In my opinion, the 2014 series is okay, but the 1990 series was the best Flash series ever.

[BRC]

I've only seen the second episode, but to me it seems alright. I'd like to join the angry mob when it comes to the Flash's secret identity discovered too soon. When it comes to the Flash from the 1990's, at least Barry is actually trying to guard his secret identity. Only a Star Labs scientist, a Private Investigator (I think), and an old vigilante learned of his secret identity. While there was one episode where everybody sees that Barry is the Flash, it was a time travel episode, so I shouldn't let that bother me too much.

I can just go on and on about how the 1990's Flash series is better compared to the 2014 Flash.

Heck, if these two got into a fight, I'd be betting my money on the Flash from the 1990's series.

In my opinion, the 2014 series is okay, but the 1990 series was the best Flash series ever.

Eh, I don't mind it that much.

"The Hero needs to keep their identity secret" is a tried-and-true source of drama, but it can cause a lot of problems. All characters need to be either "In the Know" or Unaware.

The show is about Barry being The Flash. Just about everything connects with that in some way. With Unaware characters the only real connection is "The Hero must hide their secret identity, and in doing so complicate their life". With Aware characters, the Hero can interact with them honestly, without the big cloud of "Keeping a secret identity" hovering over everything. You can have honest interactions with unaware characters, but they can't connect to the Hero aspects that make up 80% of the show.

Barry gets one major character to hide his identity from (Iris), and a bunch of characters with whom he can openly discuss the hero aspects of the show (AKA what we're here for). If too many characters are unaware of the Hero's identity, then the show can easily split between the Hero stuff, and "non-hero" stuff, which is either based around hiding the secret, OR is unconnected to the reason everybody's watching the show.

[grolim]

They were called Fire and Ice? So much for subtlety. Though if they give both of those characters their powers the CGI budget better go up.

[Pex]

I'm starting to notice that while The Flash is not Tomorrow People shirtless every episode he is injured a lot requiring a scene of him on a bed recovering wearing an open shirt. So far the pattern is roughly every other episode.

Speaking of Tomorrow People . . .

Hello to Robbie Amell. Having his starring vehicle cancelled, Robbie is back doing guest star work. Good for him he is getting acting gigs, but he tries so hard looking for that big break that never comes. He's Ken Olandt of the 1980's all over again. I do appreciate he kept his shirt on. Is it too obvious to think his character wasn't really killed and Robbie will come back in some future episode as a meta-human, possibly with the power of invisibility, insubstantial, or both? Unintended bias, I played a GURPS Supers hero with that combination of powers way back when in college.

[grolim]

I'm starting to notice that while The Flash is not Tomorrow People shirtless every episode he is injured a lot requiring a scene of him on a bed recovering wearing an open shirt. So far the pattern is roughly every other episode.

Speaking of Tomorrow People . . .

Hello to Robbie Amell. Having his starring vehicle cancelled, Robbie is back doing guest star work. Good for him he is getting acting gigs, but he tries so hard looking for that big break that never comes. He's Ken Olandt of the 1980's all over again. I do appreciate he kept his shirt on. Is it too obvious to think his character wasn't really killed and Robbie will come back in some future episode as a meta-human, possibly with the power of invisibility, insubstantial, or both? Unintended bias, I played a GURPS Supers hero with that combination of powers way back when in college.

Well he is supposed to be Ronnie Raymond...who becomes Firestorm in a nuclear accident. SO if they change it to a particle accelerator I think he will be back. Plus with her character's name and that they were called Fire and Ice, she is meant to be Killer Frost.

[Friv]

Well he is supposed to be Ronnie Raymond...who becomes Firestorm in a nuclear accident. SO if they change it to a particle accelerator I think he will be back. Plus with her character's name and that they were called Fire and Ice, she is meant to be Killer Frost.

Well, this is the CW. They're not above using names as references for fakeouts (see Tommy Merlyn, f'rex.) It's very possible that Caitlin won't actually become Killer Frost. But it's also possible that she will.

One of the things I quite like about these series - they're not afraid to stray really far from the traditional canon, but they're also not afraid to make all kinds of little nods to it, either.

[Jayngfet]

Well, this is the CW. They're not above using names as references for fakeouts (see Tommy Merlyn, f'rex.) It's very possible that Caitlin won't actually become Killer Frost. But it's also possible that she will.

One of the things I quite like about these series - they're not afraid to stray really far from the traditional canon, but they're also not afraid to make all kinds of little nods to it, either.

On the flipside, they did a double fakeout, since they're doing the "real" Black Canary(and foreshadowing the other one coming back, because lolRa'z), and Mia is going by her comic book name and taking on her proper role now.

Firestorm is potentially an easy character to do provided he doesn't have an active fire effect all the time. Since he transmutes things into other things all you really have to do is cut your scenes properly and use different props a lot of the time. All you need to do is have Stephen Amell fire some arrows off to stage left and throw teddy bears from stage right in the next shot and people will get the idea, for example.

Besides, since they have Firestorm AND Atom both set up it's obvious that they're pushing things to go in a flashier, more effects driven direction.

[Giggling Ghast]

Captain Cold is surprisingly evil. I always thought Flash's rogues were a somewhat amicable bunch.

[BWR]

A pretty good episode. As always I have to remind myself that comic book logic and drama rule, not sense (if Barry is so fast, why doesn't he just speedblitz CC instead of stopping for a chat and then trying to save people from the freeze ray?), but still enjoyable.

[comicshorse]

Captain Cold is surprisingly evil. I always thought Flash's rogues were a somewhat amicable bunch.

More coldly professional I thought. They don't kill women or children more because it generates too much heat (pun intended) than through any moral code

[Pex]

On cue Flash has his shirt off/open this episode.

Every other episode.

Gotta have the thrill. They learned their lesson not to be as blatant as Tomorrow People, but it's there.

Why am I so obsessed with this? :smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

Why am I so obsessed with this? :smallbiggrin:

You have me doing it too.

Granted shirtless well-toned men have been a hallmark of CW/WB for ages now.

[Lizard Lord]

I wasn't really interested in this show until I happened to catch the ending of the last episode. If we get Gorrila Grodd, a hyper intelligent and possibly psychic gorilla, as a recurring villain I will be very invested in watching it. It would be like a B-movie T.V. show! :smallbiggrin:

[Pex]

I never read the comics. My first exposure to The Flash was The Superfriends cartoon show of the 1970s. It was terrible when it had the kids. It was great any other time. I did like the Wonder Twins series, but my favorite was when they fought the Legion of Doom. That is when I was introduced to Grodd. I had never heard of the villain before. I had no idea for which superhero he was the arch enemy. Grodd made an appearance in the later years of the Justice League of a few years ago. They had him be from an advanced technological country of apes in Africa. It's nice for me to finally learn he's Flash's villain.

[Lizard Lord]

I never read the comics. My first exposure to The Flash was The Superfriends cartoon show of the 1970s. It was terrible when it had the kids. It was great any other time. I did like the Wonder Twins series, but my favorite was when they fought the Legion of Doom. That is when I was introduced to Grodd. I had never heard of the villain before. I had no idea for which superhero he was the arch enemy. Grodd made an appearance in the later years of the Justice League of a few years ago. They had him be from an advanced technological country of apes in Africa. It's nice for me to finally learn he's Flash's villain.

Off topic a bit, I had a similar experience with Solomon Grundy. I had seen him the Justice League cartoons and vaguely recall him in Superfriends. but I didn't know he was a Batman villain until playing some of the Arkham games.

[RabbitHoleLost]

More coldly professional I thought. They don't kill women or children more because it generates too much heat (pun intended) than through any moral code

I'm a big Flash fan, via comics
(which is why I refuse to watch the CW show)
But Flash's Rogues do have a moral code, instilled by Captain Cold, and it's something he's always touted.
No killing (not just women and children, but no killing), no drugs, avoid hurting cops as much as possible.
There've been some conflicts, of course, and Cold had issues with his sister, Lisa/Golden Glider, who was dedicated to killing Barry because she blamed him for her lover/The Top's death, and with issues with the second Mirror Master because of his drug problem, but generally he's kept these rules strict
The Rogues are generally an okay bunch, in terms of criminals
it's why they've always had villains like the Zooms/Reverse Flashes show up - because there's only so much you can do with a group of villains who don't murder

[GAZ]

I wasn't really interested in this show until I happened to catch the ending of the last episode. If we get Gorrila Grodd, a hyper intelligent and possibly psychic gorilla, as a recurring villain I will be very invested in watching it. It would be like a B-movie T.V. show! :smallbiggrin:

I would say almost definitely psychic gorilla. Remember Dr. Wells saying that General Eiling was interested in mind control.

[Dienekes]

Off topic a bit, I had a similar experience with Solomon Grundy. I had seen him the Justice League cartoons and vaguely recall him in Superfriends. but I didn't know he was a Batman villain until playing some of the Arkham games.

Well that's because he's an old Green Lantern villain, who now gets passed around DC heroes. He did have a memorable appearance in the Batman comic Long Halloween so it's not unheard of to find him listed as a Bat villain.

[Lizard Lord]

Well that's because he's an old Green Lantern villain, who now gets passed around DC heroes. He did have a memorable appearance in the Batman comic Long Halloween so it's not unheard of to find him listed as a Bat villain.

Huh, so it is pure coincidence that he appeared in the only two Arkham games I have ever played? Weird. :smallconfused:

[Jayngfet]

Huh, so it is pure coincidence that he appeared in the only two Arkham games I have ever played? Weird. :smallconfused:

Not really, a lot of villains do just kinda get passed around. I believe Vandal Savage began as another GL villain but basically just migrated around. Darksied is mostly associated with Superman among the A-Listers but he's not exactly unique to him.

If a TV Series or animated show wants to claim him they're free to but there's a difference between someone who's mostly freelance and someone who's actually in somebodies rogues gallery.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I think everyone drops in on Gotham, though
There was a point when Captain Cold did business with Harvey/Two Face and heckled the BatFam for a bit

In general, since the DCU is a shared universe amongst all the heroes, it makes sense they share villains
Although it's to a much lesser sense than Marvel, where it seems like no villain belongs to one hero

(Personally, I originally thought Grundy belonged to Wonder Woman)

[Pex]

Flash is injured a lot this episode. Unlike other times he's hurt, he keeps his shirt on while recovering. This is Keeps Shirt On week after all. Next week he'll have it off or open.

We'll see if my prediction is right or wrong.

[huttj509]

So, my brother's been watching this, I have not. He mentioned some numbers I decided to crunch.

The Flash needs to be going mach 1.1. This requires a 5.3 mile runup.

This winds up being an acceleration of 8.2 m/s^2 (or 18.3 miles per hour per second), and takes about 45 seconds to do.

While this is fast, it's 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. Porche 911 turbo S? 2.6 to 2.9 seconds.

I can see new sports car commercials with the driver at the finish line as the Flash pulls up..."what took you?"

BTW, for comparison, falling in a vacuum (at the earth's surface) is 0-60 in 2.7 seconds.



x = x0 + v0 * t + 1/2 a * t^2
v = v0 + a * t
x0 = v0 = 0
x = 5.3 Mi
v = Mach 1.1 = 837.33 Mi/Hr

2x = (a*t) * t
v = a*t

2x = v*t -> t = 2x/v (substitute in known values and convert to desired units)
a = v/t

[BWR]

I wonder at what point Barry & co are going to question the morality of locking up peopl in what basically looks like a 10x10 room with no amenities for just about forever. No trial, nothing but a blank isolated cube. And when are the cops going to question where these baddies go. For all they know, these guys just disappear.

[Kitten Champion]

I wonder at what point Barry & co are going to question the morality of locking up peopl in what basically looks like a 10x10 room with no amenities for just about forever. No trial, nothing but a blank isolated cube. And when are the cops going to question where these baddies go. For all they know, these guys just disappear.

It really is a civil rights nightmare going on. I can see them justifying it to themselves in the first case with the gas guy, having killed dozens of people openly and being impossible to secure normally. Tonight's villain however was just a petty thug, one with superpowers obviously and he did some seriously illegal things, but nothing to warrant permanent isolation in Aperture Science's spartan suite.

Oh well, there's science to do, I guess.

[grolim]

Plus the first guy had already been sentenced to die for his previous crimes and was turned into a metahuman at his own execution. So him being locked up, alive is a plus for him.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't think what they are doing, is immoral per se. I mean there are basically two things you can do with most of these guys. Either lock them up within you unescapable jail cell, or kill them. Most of the guys they have encountered have shown themselves to be irresponsible with the powers that they have gotten. The stand in for the police force, The detective, has already brought up the fact that they should let the authorities handle it. He has also said, that they aren't able to do anything about it. Most of the people that have been shown so far could break out of normal prison easily. They also have done things that would be hard to prove in a normal court trial. Also, they are guilty of crimes. They are seen to be doing it, the proof is there. It's not like good ole Berry Allen is just picking out random people and throwing them into a dungeon. They aren't bringing them into a cell and torturing them for giggles. I suppose the argument could be made that they are abducting people and performing medical research without consent. I contend that they are treating this as an outbreak. If they had the Authority, they would be within the rights to hold people and try to find a way to treat what the disease. That is basically what is going on here, Quarantine. There is a threat to the general populace, and the normal authorities aren't equipped to handle it.

This this is a show about a Vigilante. Heck all shows about Vigilantes are by their very nature Unethical and Immoral.

My problem with this whole situation is that they aren't reporting what happen to anyone. There was a huge accident, and all this stuff happen to so many people, but still no one is told about it. The company is trying to clean up it's mess without having to pay the consequences. What you have here, is Erin Brockovich with superpowers.

[BWR]

I don't think what they are doing, is immoral per se. I mean there are basically two things you can do with most of these guys. Either lock them up within you unescapable jail cell, or kill them. Most of the guys they have encountered have shown themselves to be irresponsible with the powers that they have gotten. The stand in for the police force, The detective, has already brought up the fact that they should let the authorities handle it. He has also said, that they aren't able to do anything about it. Most of the people that have been shown so far could break out of normal prison easily. They also have done things that would be hard to prove in a normal court trial. Also, they are guilty of crimes. They are seen to be doing it, the proof is there. It's not like good ole Berry Allen is just picking out random people and throwing them into a dungeon. They aren't bringing them into a cell and torturing them for giggles. I suppose the argument could be made that they are abducting people and performing medical research without consent. I contend that they are treating this as an outbreak. If they had the Authority, they would be within the rights to hold people and try to find a way to treat what the disease. That is basically what is going on here, Quarantine. There is a threat to the general populace, and the normal authorities aren't equipped to handle it.

This this is a show about a Vigilante. Heck all shows about Vigilantes are by their very nature Unethical and Immoral.


The lesser of two evils is still evil. It may be necessary to protect people but locking people away like that is certainly not a good thing.

All shows about vigilantes are most certainly not unethical or immoral by their very nature. I'd say that they are mostly the complete opposite. They may be doing illegal things but they are certainly moral and ethical people. Considering that your average superhero is basically a vigilante spending his/her own time and money and risking his/her own life and limb helping people, I'd say they are very moral people in many respects. You can always argue that they would do better by going through the proper channels, but helping people is rarely immoral. And there are cases of vigilante stories where the law is either grossly incompetant (most superhero stories) or actively evil, in which case being a vigilante is actually the best option for helping people.

[Flickerdart]

Oh well, there's science to do, I guess.
<whitehall>Progress requires experimentation.</whitehall>

[The New Bruceski]

oops, wrong thread.

[Kyberwulf]

If the lesser of two evils is still evil. Then how do you explain running around a city getting into fights, acts of vandalism and breaking and entering. Invasion of privacy, not to mention putting innocent civilians in danger. How is that morally sound?

[Pex]

I wonder at what point Barry & co are going to question the morality of locking up peopl in what basically looks like a 10x10 room with no amenities for just about forever. No trial, nothing but a blank isolated cube. And when are the cops going to question where these baddies go. For all they know, these guys just disappear.

It's just a set up for the eventual special cliff hanger finale prison break where they are all set free by Captain Cold, the Cigarette Lighter person Captain Cold spoke with, the Yellow Lightning Man who killed Barry's mother, and/or Dr. Wells.

[Flickerdart]

I think Dr. Wells is the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom/whatever that kills Barry's mother, as part of his attempt to create the Flash.

[Kitten Champion]

I think Dr. Wells is the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom/whatever that kills Barry's mother, as part of his attempt to create the Flash.


I'd be genuinely surprised if that wasn't it.

Although the "we need tragedy to create the hero" shtick doesn't really feel all the Flash-like. As I've said previously, I always liked the Flash character in the DCAU because he wasn't heroic due to brooding angst thirsting for justice, some kind of messiah complex foisted upon him, or because he pulled some sword from a stone. He's just a guy, which makes his heroism all the more compelling to my mind.

[GenericMook]

I'd be genuinely surprised if that wasn't it.

Although the "we need tragedy to create the hero" shtick doesn't really feel all the Flash-like. As I've said previously, I always liked the Flash character in the DCAU because he wasn't heroic due to brooding angst thirsting for justice, some kind of messiah complex foisted upon him, or because he pulled some sword from a stone. He's just a guy, which makes his heroism all the more compelling to my mind.

From my understanding, this is probably a case of a predestination paradox.

Wells travels back in time as Reverse Flash, kills Nora Allen, and puts Barry on the road to being the Flash, nudging things here and there, and even setting up the particle accelerator that leads to Barry being struck by lightning.

He does this because without Barry, there isn't a Flash (idk if Wally exists here), and without a Flash, there can't be a Reverse Flash. He basically sets everything in motion (Grodd, creating the accelerator, etc.) because he understands the importance of it.

Heck, I won't be surprised if they reveal that Wells knew that the accelerator would explode.

Also,Captain Boomerang got revealed in Arrow!

[Flickerdart]

Heck, I won't be surprised if they reveal that Wells knew that the accelerator would explode.
Didn't we see a flashback that basically confirmed this? I had the impression that the accelerator was never meant to accelerate anything except Barry.

[Pex]

I think Dr. Wells is the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom/whatever that kills Barry's mother, as part of his attempt to create the Flash.




Duh! :smallsmile:

[TheEmerged]

Duh! :smallsmile:



Fly in the ointment: look up the name of Iris's boyfriend, Eddie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107288/).

[Ravian]

Fly in the ointment: look up the name of Iris's boyfriend, Eddie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107288/).

Yeah personally I think that Wells is only the guy behind Reverse Flash, manipulating events for some as of yet undefined scheme. I suspect it's probably Eddie or possible Caitlin's dead boyfriend. (Though he's likely to turn up as some villain if it's not Reverse Flash, I mean seriously the guy was at ground zero with the particle accelerator accident.) Of course given the time travel, if it's Eddie it's probably him from the future given that Reverse Flash is hanging around in this time.

[Friv]

Fly in the ointment: look up the name of Iris's boyfriend, Eddie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107288/).

Yeah, but it's the CW. They're totally willing to plant false leads to mess with long-time fans. Look at "Speedy" (aka Thea) or Tommy Merlyn in Arrow.

Eddie may turn out to be the Reverse Flash, but it's just as possible that he's got some complicating factor, or that he's a fake-out, or even that Harrison is going to try and turn Eddie into another Flash against his will and there are three Flashes out there.

[grolim]

Yeah personally I think that Wells is only the guy behind Reverse Flash, manipulating events for some as of yet undefined scheme. I suspect it's probably Eddie or possible Caitlin's dead boyfriend. (Though he's likely to turn up as some villain if it's not Reverse Flash, I mean seriously the guy was at ground zero with the particle accelerator accident.) Of course given the time travel, if it's Eddie it's probably him from the future given that Reverse Flash is hanging around in this time.

Doubtful since Caitlin's boyfriend is Ronnie Raymond and confirmed to be Firestorm. Later a member of the Justice League.

[Ravian]

Doubtful since Caitlin's boyfriend is Ronnie Raymond and confirmed to be Firestorm. Later a member of the Justice League.

Ah... I figured he would be some sort of meta-human. I've never been as up to speed on my DC characters, especially most of the more minor ones. (I'm too much of a marvel fanboy I guess)

That explains why my friend keeps on pointing out all the ice references he seems to say Caitlin keeps on using. I'm guessing there's some sort of Fire and Ice thing between the two?

Dammit, I just looked up the wiki. Caitlin is Killer Frost!? Once again not the most well-versed in DC lore but even I can recognize a villain who ended up on the Justice League Cartoon.

[Flickerdart]

I've never been as up to speed on my DC characters
Puns! :smallbiggrin:

[grolim]

Dammit, I just looked up the wiki. Caitlin is Killer Frost!? Once again not the most well-versed in DC lore but even I can recognize a villain who ended up on the Justice League Cartoon.


Yeah. In the comics there were several versions of her. Some that were Firestorm's enemy. One of my favorite scenes in a Firestorm comic was when he took her out. She had pierced his shoulder with a near zero icicle and he was passing out. Her power is heat absorption, she can drain Supes of all his yellow sun heat and be hungry for more. So he unloaded on her, and melted her. He melted the lady whose power was to absorb heat. I can still remember the quote from that one.....For the briefest of instants, in a space less than 5 feet square it is as if the sun physically touches the earth. Uncontrolled the energy would devastate the earth for miles, but it is controlled. Sucks he gets to little attention, he was fun. But he is a special effects hog for life action. Plus his power suite makes him in many ways like Superman, kind of over powered. His immaturity and inexperience is what hurt him a lot.

[BWR]

If the lesser of two evils is still evil. Then how do you explain running around a city getting into fights, acts of vandalism and breaking and entering. Invasion of privacy, not to mention putting innocent civilians in danger. How is that morally sound?

I'd much prefer someone breaking a law to help someone rather than just leaving them to get seriously hurt or die just because it's illegal. Beating up a baddie to stop him from hurting others is an imperfect soluition (which would be to somehow make a world where no one wants to do bad stuff, without any sort of mind-control hijinks), but it's better than letting innocents get hurt. Which innocents are you talking about, that Barry puts at risk?

[Kyberwulf]

Just because you prefer something doesn't make it ethical or moral.

[Ravian]

Yeah I fully suspect that the issue of imprisoning a bunch of highly dangerous yet untried meta-humans within a secret facility only slightly connected to legitimate law enforcement (in that they are on good terms with the police chief) will come back to bite them eventually. Sure Mist is legally dead so if anything they're doing him a favor here, but Girder (is that what they ended up calling him? Or was it just the name of the training bot?) was never tried, and his host of crimes arguably not horrible enough to ensure life imprisonment without chance of parole. (I don't believe he ever killed anyone, even if he did try to. Other than that he mainly just went on a power trip and smashed and stole a bunch of stuff. Certainly prison material, but not necessarily irredeemable)

The issue is that the law enforcement has no way to deal with criminals of this caliber, but the most obvious solution is: Stop trying to pretend meta-humans don't exist, and try to help the city deal with them legitimately, rather than playing judge, jury and (potentially) executioner. I fully believe this is mainly motivated by Well's secret evilness. If they make it open on the existence of meta-humans and try to step up as a source of aid, then obviously they'll want some info on why meta-humans have started to appear. And once they know it was the particle accelerator's fault, suddenly you have a bunch more scrutiny of Wells, and Barry goes from easily controllable vigilante/guinea pig to beloved public figure and law enforcement officer.

[Kitten Champion]

I just assume Wells wants the meta-humans for whatever his scheme inevitably is, and his two remaining staff are too invested in the project and supportive of Wells himself at this point to really see what's going on.

Although that doesn't explain the blind enthusiasm Barry has for this extraordinary renditioning going on - a man whose own father was subject to wrongful imprisonment, who was raised by a straight-laced cop, and who works in an official capacity as a forensic something-or-rather with the police - would be somewhat more conscientious to what was going on.

Him hiding his identity and his work in general seems rather more like it's following conventions of the genre rather than logically following from his character. Insisting, for instance, that Iris not involve herself in reporting on meta-human activities for her own safety seemed an awfully premature reaction -- the whole thing still feels like they simply need someone significant out of the loop so they can have secret identity related melodrama like in Smallville.

[BWR]

Just because you prefer something doesn't make it ethical or moral.

If you have any sort of universal, truly objective, externally provable system of morality, by all means share it. People will be thrilled. Until that time, yes, whatever I think is right is ethical and whatever I think is wrong is unethical. There may be details to work out but that's the basis of all ethics.
Do you truly believe that all unethical actions (however you define 'ethical') are of equal magnitude?
If you answered 'no', when put into a situation where two unethical choices of unequal magnitude are given, do you believe that the he correct choice is to choose the least unethical of the two?
If you answered 'yes', do you believe that helping someone who, in your judgement, will come to great harm if you do not help and there is no other obvious source of better aid is a good thing?
If you answered 'yes' we are basically in agreement. You can quibble about if he could do it in a better manner, but basically Barry is out helping people in situations where he's the best or even the only option for helping them.

Now that we've derailed the thread enough, what say we get back to the show?

[Kyberwulf]

You asked when will they start to question their actions of locking people up without a trial.
I believe you already answered you own question. If all actions are subjective, then there is no ethical or moral boundaries.

Since they have taken it upon themselves to police these meta humans, then why is it so morally black and white about convicting and punishing them.

You ask when they will question the morality of locking people up in a 10' by 10' cell with out amenities. I ask you, why gives them the right to run around playing cops and robbers with them in the first place. If they can't contain the situation, then they shouldn't be running around trying to stop them. Otherwise you will just have a Batman/Arkham Asylum revolving door situation here. Where is the Morality in just putting dangerous criminals in a situation they can just break out of in the first place. It's not like the two people they put in the cells are innocent people. They have proven that they are a danger to society.

If the people responsible for the peace and security of society, can't even do their jobs of maintaining the peace and security. What makes you think the same people could hold, judge and execute those judgments?

If Barry is out helping people in situations where he's the best or even the only option for helping them. Then how come that doesn't extend to containing the threats so that they can't repeat their actions?

If they don't have the right to judge and enforce those judgment without a governing body, then they don't have the moral authority to play dress up and run around tying to enforce the laws without a governing body.

[Ravian]

It's not that keeping the villains in a secure facility to contain them is in of itself immoral, I fully agree that Star Labs is probably the best place to keep them. The issue is that they are still circumnavigating the legal system to do it. Just because you are more competent at catching and containing the criminals than mundane police are, doesn't mean you can just ignore all aspects of the legal system.

The clearest solution is to stop with the secrecy, march up to the police, say that there are metahumans running around that are outside their abilities to deal with, and offer their facilities as a secure place to contain them once they are brought to justice (with the help of their speedster friend)

[grolim]

The thing is they are not planning to keep them there forever. They have said, yes Wells could be lying about it, that they are also trying to "cure" them. If they can remove their powers then they would no longer be a danger. Well no more of a danger than any other bully, thug, or psychopath. Plastique would have been there to, with them looking to cure her. But she would not have been locked up since she was not trying to hurt anyone. At least not until Wells convinced her.

One a side note. Isn't one of Grodd's powers with his mind illusion? Could be be Wells and making all the others see a human in a wheelchair? Or could he just be controlling him and using him as a channel for those powers. It seemed Plastique sure switched easy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I like how people are confusing morality with legality like doing something illegal somehow makes it automatically unethical or immoral.


The clearest solution is to stop with the secrecy, march up to the police, say that there are metahumans running around that are outside their abilities to deal with, and offer their facilities as a secure place to contain them once they are brought to justice (with the help of their speedster friend)
Except that won't happen, they'll want their own secure facilities to contain them so that later Amanda Waller can recruit into the suicide squad forcing dangerous meta-humans into slavery. As if they weren't dangerous enough without a legitimate reason to be pissed off. General Eiling in the most recent episode would want to take and recruit all these metahumans for the army.

[Clertar]

Don't worry, Anders will blow something up and the kidnapped metas will rebel.

[Ravian]

I like how people are confusing morality with legality like doing something illegal somehow makes it automatically unethical or immoral.

Except that won't happen, they'll want their own secure facilities to contain them so that later Amanda Waller can recruit into the suicide squad forcing dangerous meta-humans into slavery. As if they weren't dangerous enough without a legitimate reason to be pissed off. General Eiling in the most recent episode would want to take and recruit all these metahumans for the army.

I'm not saying they've crossed the line, I'm saying that they've set a dangerous precedent here. What happens when you have, for example, an intangible robber. The only prison that can hold him is one made of a substance Star labs knows about and can make. That being said, the guy has not killed anyone, merely robbing them so he can live the big life. They can't just ship him to the police, since without knowledge of his abilities and the means to counteract them, he'll be out in an instant. At the same time, it would be both illegal and immoral to lock him up in their super-prison for the rest of his life. They don't have the resources to rehabilitate him. (And as far as we've seen, they have no plans to attempt to rehabilitate any of the metas they've already captured. In that sort of situation, the best course would be to send him to a normal prison, while providing the law enforcement the means to contain him there.

The issue with people like Waller and Eiling is its own problem. If we made every decision with the thought that it would be relentlessly abused by those with power, than we wouldn't be able to do anything. If there were big powerful people in the IRS quietly pocketing large portions of people's taxes and using it for their own gain, then the answer is not "Don't pay taxes." because the taxes are still necessary for things to function. The answer is "Deal with those that are abusing the system."

To put it another way, imagine if Batman locked up everyone in his rogue's gallery in a secret prison in the Batcave. Would they be able to escape as easily as they do with Arkham? Probably not. However, Batman certainly can't provide the psychiatric care they would need to have a hope at treating their insanity. (They'd also be far more dangerous if they do break out in the bat cave than if they escape Arkham, since odds are they could find their way up to Wayne Manor and then the whole secret's out. Same issue with keeping a bunch of angry meta-humans directly below your base of operations.) Obviously you can go on as much as you want about how incompetent they are at Arkham. (I agree, and I still shake my head whenever they do something as idiotic as leaving a houseplant in Poison Ivy's cell) but it is still where they are kept, and just because the legal system is too incompetent to know when a psycho in clown makeup deserves the chair, doesn't mean that Batman has the right to take justice into his own hands like that. That is what separates him from the average vigilante, and that's why its no more moral for Flash to do it here.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay, if a child has a doggie, and it is being nice there isn't a problem.

now if that dog acts up and starts biting people or gets rabies, or just generally goes mean. Do we not, as adults, have the responsibility of taking care of the dog so it doesn't pose a danger to anyone?

What we have here is basically, some adult, taken care of the dog when it acts out. Putting it on a leash.. then handing the lease to the child with the expectation of the child being able to handle the dog, or the dog just magically going to be okay. This is the case of Batman/Arkham Asylum.

This isn't a dangerous precedent. It's the only logical conclusion that should have happen a long time ago. Barry and Co. don't have to question the morality of what the are doing, because they aren't doing anything that wouldn't be done in the first place. Also, they aren't exactly doing any torturing, killing or being outright morally ambiguous.

[Ravian]

Okay, if a child has a doggie, and it is being nice there isn't a problem.

now if that dog acts up and starts biting people or gets rabies, or just generally goes mean. Do we not, as adults, have the responsibility of taking care of the dog so it doesn't pose a danger to anyone?

What we have here is basically, some adult, taken care of the dog when it acts out. Putting it on a leash.. then handing the lease to the child with the expectation of the child being able to handle the dog, or the dog just magically going to be okay. This is the case of Batman/Arkham Asylum.

This isn't a dangerous precedent. It's the only logical conclusion that should have happen a long time ago. Barry and Co. don't have to question the morality of what the are doing, because they aren't doing anything that wouldn't be done in the first place. Also, they aren't exactly doing any torturing, killing or being outright morally ambiguous.

There are two functions of prisons: One, that they are able to restrain criminals from harming the public. Two, unless they are in there for life imprisonment without parole, they are supposed to rehabilitate the criminals so that they won't slip back to their old ways once they are released. (Obviously some people have more of the opinion that prisons should act as deterrents for criminals, but this becomes less solid when you have super-villains that have a much more solid chance of avoiding capture than regular criminals.) This is doubly true when you have an asylum where the inmates literally cannot be held responsible for their actions because of their mental psychoses.

The issue with the Star lab prison (as well as any theoretical batcave asylum) is that while they can fullfill the first requirement more effectively than a regular prison can, they are almost fully incapable of fulfilling the second one. (even if one were to use the punishment idea for prisons.)

Arkham may not have been capable of fully curing any of batman's foes yet, but certainly not for lack of trying (corrupt and insane psychologists notwithstanding) and I believe a number of storylines have involved one of his foes being rehabilitated for a period (unfortunately due to the status-quo in comics, they inevitably relapse sooner or later). Arkham for all of its flaws, is the only real hope for the redemption of any of Batman's foes, and that is not something that Batman could provide if he kept them in his cave. Even if he could get the required training to reach them psychologically, he's only one guy, and can't hope to balance crime fighting with rehabilitation. He also can't get the staff necessary to help him, since that would involve bringing in even more people to know about his secret identity. The best solution therefore is to try and work through the system, update Arkham until its security is reliable enough so it can fulfill its true function of rehabilitation. (This is definitely something that Batman is likely trying to accomplish, since he can help provide Arkham with the funding and technology necessary through Wayne Enterprises)

Star Lab's has a similar problem. Even if they are more capable at containing the meta-humans, they can't ensure that justice is metted out correctly while operating in complete secrecy (to the point where they are actively trying to deny the existence of meta-humans). Not only are they incapable of providing rehabilitation to any of their inmates, but they may be forced to hand out wildly inappropriate sentences out of necessity. Going back to my previous example, what happens when they encounter a meta-human that has committed a crime not worthy of life imprisonment without parole, while still being incapable of being held in a regular prison? Do they just lock every small-time crook away in their private prison for as long as they live? Or do they work with providing the appropriate authorities with the means to provide their prisons with both the proper security for their powers as well as the staff and authority necessary to accomplish some form of rehabilitation?

Your analogy of the dog is flawed in that regard. For it to work we have to imagine a scenario where while the adult has the physical strength to restrain the dog from biting people, only the child is capable of teaching the dog not to bite people. Thus the secret prison is the equivalent of the adult holding on to the biting dog for the rest of its life. (where it will never learn to stop biting people, and there will always be the threat that it could still escape and bite the adult.) While putting the criminals in a regular prison is giving the child the lease. (Where it may be taught, but will more likely escape and bite people again). Obviously the best result here is the compromise. The adult hangs onto the dog (Star provides the necessary security) while the child teaches it not to bite people (the authorities rehabilitate the inmates) and before long hopefully the dog will no longer bite people and the leash will be unnecessary.

(Obviously another part of the necessary analogy is the idea that the dog may be untrainable and may have to be put down, despite the child's protests and the adults reservations against such a course (the equivalent being knowing when to accept that everyone would be better off if the Joker were dead) but this being about superheroes (once again with the supreme status-quo) this issue cannot be fully addressed within their confines.)

[Kitten Champion]

As I see it, Star Labs is no better than Amanda Waller or her ilk. Ultimately we know that it's being run by a murdering sociopath operating a prison exclusively to achieve his own ends, regardless if its for amoral experimentation or countless other possible things.

The difference being Barry and company are unaware of the fact, and are not even skeptical, whereas most people under Waller are pretty hip to what's going on.

What all these people, the Suicide Squad or that Eeeeeevillllllll~ General, have in common is that they operate in secret beyond the scrutiny of law or the press. This lets them make amazingly stupid decisions in the name of amoral peacekeeping or national defence time and time again with impunity.

If anyone actually cared about these meta-human's welfare passed the end of the episode, they'd come forward to the press and police directly. The police deserve better resources in their attempts to deal with the plausible threats out there anyways, and it's entirely likely the public will learn of meta-peoples eventually anyways. Actually, they should know already based off of events we've already seen being investigated, but... this show isn't going for realism in that aspect.

Which is fine, really, it still just makes Barry seem woefully naive.

[Kyberwulf]

The thing about these guys with superpowers. They have already proven to be corrupted by them... or rather corrupted the powers they get. I think it is naïve to think that with just the right amount of help, they can be saved. Maybe that could be the case with normal criminals. These guys have superpowers. Which the key word is, power. Everyone knows, power corrupts. That might sound cynical. But with these super powers, even petty thugs will eventually become worse and worse. The more they can break the laws, the more then can get away with, the more they will evolve into harsher crimes.

The thing with the dog, is as adults. The adult wouldn't have to hold the leash forever. They would just have to hold it till they can determine what to do with the dog. Keep it locked up, kill it, or try to "fix" it. Just giving it back the child is not a good answer.

On the other argument. As well, and as right as it should be to come clean about the accident and everything that happen after it. It might not be such a good thing. I am pretty sure, the Government would come in and hamstring any attempt Barry and co. are doing to contain the situation. Heck, they would probably make it worse. Also, I wouldn't trust the government to properly deal with these Supers either. They would end up subverting the effort to contain theses guys, and use them to their own end. Ending up lying to the world about them anyway. Coming clean about the superpowered criminals would cause a lot of fear and panic. Remember, this is the first time people with superpowers has shown up in this world, I do believe, even counting Arrow.

[Ravian]

The thing about these guys with superpowers. They have already proven to be corrupted by them... or rather corrupted the powers they get. I think it is naïve to think that with just the right amount of help, they can be saved. Maybe that could be the case with normal criminals. These guys have superpowers. Which the key word is, power. Everyone knows, power corrupts. That might sound cynical. But with these super powers, even petty thugs will eventually become worse and worse. The more they can break the laws, the more then can get away with, the more they will evolve into harsher crimes.


Rather blanket statement that based on all of the (what, less than a dozen?) meta-humans we have encountered, most of whom have died in the fighting, all of them are beyond redemption? That goes right on to extremely cynical. Flash hasn't been corrupted by his power. You have literally no basis that the powers will corrupt everyone that has the slightest inclination for criminal activities. Once again, what if a guy just uses his powers to steal? What if they're doing it to feed their families? You can't just declare that anyone who ever uses superpowers for less than moral activities is irreversibly tainted. Maybe you can even argue that the guys they've captured do truly deserve it. That still doesn't solve the issue when they inevitably encounter someone that is within redemption.



The thing with the dog, is as adults. The adult wouldn't have to hold the leash forever. They would just have to hold it till they can determine what to do with the dog. Keep it locked up, kill it, or try to "fix" it. Just giving it back the child is not a good answer.

On the other argument. As well, and as right as it should be to come clean about the accident and everything that happen after it. It might not be such a good thing. I am pretty sure, the Government would come in and hamstring any attempt Barry and co. are doing to contain the situation. Heck, they would probably make it worse. Also, I wouldn't trust the government to properly deal with these Supers either. They would end up subverting the effort to contain theses guys, and use them to their own end. Ending up lying to the world about them anyway. Coming clean about the superpowered criminals would cause a lot of fear and panic. Remember, this is the first time people with superpowers has shown up in this world, I do believe, even counting Arrow.

But are superheroes necessarily the adults in every scenario? They're stronger physically yes. You might even say they have a good sense of right and wrong. But that doesn't automatically make them the "Adult" in every scenario. Once again, has Superman taking over the world so he can "save everyone" ever been portrayed as a good thing? If you want to talk about power corrupting, try putting all the power in the hands of those with the power to claim it. Because that is what you get when you begin to trust every aspect of the justice system to a bunch of guys who happen to have the technology and a really fast guy.

As much as we like to give grief to the government, trusting everything to the guys with the most firepower that people trust to do the right thing is still an autocracy, with virtually no check to their power aside through violence by other people with firepower.

[Kyberwulf]

My blanket statement has more weight. So far every Meta human encountered has used their power in a negative fashion. The ones killed and the ones that have been put into the Jail cells. You are using a hypothetical Meta human that only uses his powers for petty crimes. The Flash hasn't been corrupted. But so far some of his actions can be questionable. Counting, apparently, His willingness to imprison people is currently the one under discussion. Although his current quest is to get his dad out of prison. (which by the way, he was planning on just breaking him out) What is going to happen when he finds out who killed his mom, and knowing that person is out there. He also took way to much pleasure in taunting and defeating his childhood bully. That felt way to much like revenge.

Also, using Berry as an example is kind of pointless. He is the protagonist so of course he is going to be the exception to the rule. He is always going to have people who will bring him back from the brink of crossing the line. We will never see what his real and normal reaction to anything that happens to him, because he will always be contrived back to the path of a hero.

[Ravian]

Barry I believe hasn't really realized the implications here because the meta-humans they have captured have all tried to harm him and people close to him. I believe that the blame is more squarely on Well's shoulders, since its almost entirely his own reputation that he's saving by not admitting to the existence of meta-humans that he created. Other than that, Barry definitely has a good sense of justice and right and wrong. Until we see anything more definite, he is a clear exception to your all meta-humans are evil rule.

Meanwhile what other meta-humans have we encountered. Essentially all of them were already criminals or bullies. Basing the actions of all meta-humans by the actions of people that were already evil before acquiring powers is like judging all members of any group based on the actions of some extremists. True we haven't encountered many meta-humans that weren't already criminals before gaining powers (aside from Barry) but that can more be chalked down to the fact that this is a show about a meta-human crime fighter. I have no doubt that they'll include some less than evil meta-humans before the series is through, (The boyfriend who got caught in the particle accelerator is especially likely given that he shares his name with a lesser known Meta-human hero.)

I hardly see how its naive to believe that people are good or bad based on their own actions, rather than their abilities. And judging that all people are irredeemable because of their superpowers is undeniably a blanket statement.

[Friv]

Meanwhile what other meta-humans have we encountered. Essentially all of them were already criminals or bullies. Basing the actions of all meta-humans by the actions of people that were already evil before acquiring powers is like judging all members of any group based on the actions of some extremists. True we haven't encountered many meta-humans that weren't already criminals before gaining powers (aside from Barry) but that can more be chalked down to the fact that this is a show about a meta-human crime fighter. I have no doubt that they'll include some less than evil meta-humans before the series is through, (The boyfriend who got caught in the particle accelerator is especially likely given that he shares his name with a lesser known Meta-human hero.)

I hardly see how its naive to believe that people are good or bad based on their own actions, rather than their abilities. And judging that all people are irredeemable because of their superpowers is undeniably a blanket statement.

In fact, given the lady with the bomb powers, it's safe to say that meta-powers don't make people evil; she was a good person, who Wells manipulated into doing something bad to try and protect people.

In fact, so far we have six metahumans displayed - Flash, Weather Wizard, Multiplex, Gasguy, Plastique, and Girder. Of the six, WW and the gas guy were super-murderous both before and after getting powers. Multiplex and Girder were total *******s, although we don't know what Multiplex was like before getting his powers and he may have been a lot more stable before his wife died. Plastique and Flash were both good people before, and stayed that way.

On the other hand - Girder in particular hasn't committed enough crimes that I'm willing to believe that he deserves indefinite detention in solitary confinement. He's a violent jerk, but it's possible that he could have been rehabilitated. (I could be wrong - it's unclear if he killed those police officers, but I think he just beat them up? Did he kill anyone during his episode?)

[Ravian]

In fact, given the lady with the bomb powers, it's safe to say that meta-powers don't make people evil; she was a good person, who Wells manipulated into doing something bad to try and protect people.

In fact, so far we have six metahumans displayed - Flash, Weather Wizard, Multiplex, Gasguy, Plastique, and Girder. Of the six, WW and the gas guy were super-murderous both before and after getting powers. Multiplex and Girder were total *******s, although we don't know what Multiplex was like before getting his powers and he may have been a lot more stable before his wife died. Plastique and Flash were both good people before, and stayed that way.

On the other hand - Girder in particular hasn't committed enough crimes that I'm willing to believe that he deserves indefinite detention in solitary confinement. He's a violent jerk, but it's possible that he could have been rehabilitated. (I could be wrong - it's unclear if he killed those police officers, but I think he just beat them up? Did he kill anyone during his episode?)

I missed the plastique epsiode, but I'm glad they've showed a meta-human other than Barry that wasn't one hundred percent evil. I also don't believe that Girder actually killed anyone. He certainly attempted to kill Flash several times, along with a host of smaller crimes, but that still doesn't mean that he irredeemable. (of course, now they've kind of tied themselves down from trying to accommodate him in a regular prison, since Barry had to do his little gloating bit without his mask on.)

[grolim]

While they have shown him do anything to make him irredeemable, Girder was shown to have a decade or more history of being a bully, a thug, a bit violent, and a total douche. Not irredeemable but easily career petty criminal and thug. And completely uncaring about anything but him and what he wants. Like others said he was already a criminal, his powers just let him ramp it up to 11 as well as the damage he can do.

[Ravian]

While they have shown him do anything to make him irredeemable, Girder was shown to have a decade or more history of being a bully, a thug, a bit violent, and a total douche. Not irredeemable but easily career petty criminal and thug. And completely uncaring about anything but him and what he wants. Like others said he was already a criminal, his powers just let him ramp it up to 11 as well as the damage he can do.

That as may be, it's still not Barry and Star lab's place to judge, it's the legal system's. That's what it all boils down to. Even if every person that ever ended up in their prison would have ended up with life imprisonment if they had been given to the proper authorities, it still doesn't justify them, because they still have the right to due process under the law. Once you allow a superhero and his cohorts to subvert legal rights because they have the power to enforce it, then you have created an autocratic system.

It's why I take umbrage with the dog analogy. Just because someone has the physical power to enforce their decisions, does not make them the "adult" in a scenario. An adult is trusted to have more experience in all regards than the child, enough so that they are allowed an incredible amount of control over the child's actions. But this kind of analogy is most often employed in a larger sense when justifying totalitarian regimes. A Dictator is the father of the country because of his strength and wisdom, which he uses to lead the ignorant masses and protect them from the wolves at their gates. However competent and well-intentioned that dictator may be, the system is still severely flawed because he cannot be infallible in all regards. Superman may be one of the most benevolent superheroes in comics with the power to back it up, but even he isn't infallible, which is why even he can't take over the world for our own good without it all going horribly wrong. It's also why even Batman, who lives in a city with one of the largest corruption problems ever, still doesn't kill his villains. Because he knows that no matter how flawed the justice system is that will continue to return the crooks to the streets, once he starts playing judge, jury and executioner, he knows he'll become no better than any other whack-job with a gun and a need for vengeance.

[Lizard Lord]

Geez. I just watch this show for wacky super hero fun and you guys are arguing about the ethics of it all. I think with this show you need to remember the MST3K mantra.

[Pex]

Geez. I just watch this show for wacky super hero fun and you guys are arguing about the ethics of it all. I think with this show you need to remember the MST3K mantra.

I believe in the rail system too, but I'll pass on the rock climbing.

Anyway, Flash kept his shirt on! They broke the pattern. Several opportunities for shirtless/open shirt scenes, but he kept it on and closed. Makes me wonder if they're saving it up for a double shirtless Flash and Arrow in their crossover. That gets the fangirls crazy but also just being cynical without cause. Here's to hoping it's an unfulfilled prophecy.

Has Clock King always been a Flash villain or at least his first? I associate him with Batman. It was obvious from his first scene he was someone known in the Flash universe and not having his watch mattered, but since I'm not so familiar with it I had no idea who he was. I was surprised when he was named. Granted, I only know Clock King from the 1960's Adam West show and the original Kevin Conroy cartoon series. He was not in John Wesley Shipp's Flash.

[grolim]

Actually I think he was introduced on Arrow in season 2? I also think it was the same actor portraying him. He was running a thief group having everything timed to the second and I seem to recall him doing it for money to save a family member. So cross series continuity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3337656/

Yup same guy.

[leafman]

Anyone catch the names of people who died the night of the particle accelerator explosion? Poor Ralph Dibny :smallfrown:

[Pex]

Actually I think he was introduced on Arrow in season 2? I also think it was the same actor portraying him. He was running a thief group having everything timed to the second and I seem to recall him doing it for money to save a family member. So cross series continuity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3337656/

Yup same guy.

Understood. I don't watch Arrow so of course I wouldn't have known.

[grolim]

True, but I like continuity. Having set both series in the same universe for crossovers is nice, but if you crossover villains etc using the same actors etc is nice too. Start building that world. Expand it. Marvel has done that well, DC never has really. Maybe the CW can be a start.

[Friv]

Anyone catch the names of people who died the night of the particle accelerator explosion? Poor Ralph Dibny :smallfrown:

Ehn, Weather Wizard and Girder were both also supposed to have died that night. I would not rule out Ralph re-appearing.

From another thread:

Ronnie Raymond - the superhero Firestorm
Ralph Dibney - the superhero Elongated Man
Al Rothstein - the superhero Nuklon / Atom-Smasher
Grant Emerson: the superhero Damage
Will Everett: the superhero Amazing-Man
Bea da Costa - the superhero Fire

Basically, most of the people that Harrison names are people who are superheroes in the DC setting. Good chance that any or all of them could appear over time.

On-topic: I really liked this episode, and Iris is growing on me, but I really want to slap Barry upside the head, and I'm sad that we lost Girder so early. There was a lot of potential there.

[Slylizard]

The more I watch this, the more I'm positive I know who Wells is.
Hunter Zolomon, Prof Zoom, a version of Reverse Flash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoom_(comics)). There are way too many similarities for it not to be this version. The paralysis, the 'need' to push Flash to become the best hero he can be are both there. I'm thinking that he saw Flash disappear in the future, thought 'if only he was better he would still be here' and thus went back to speed up his development. Zolomon is evil, but everything he does is to make Flash better... it just works in my mind.

[Kyberwulf]

If it's not their place to judge, then it isn't their place to play cops.

They just contaminate the crime scenes, and disrupt the due process in all it's forms. I don't get how it can be viewed okay to do it in one instance, but then it's not okay in another. By stopping these guys with superpowers as soon as they can, and locking them up so they can't perpetrate their crimes. They are in effect stopping any future innocent victims.

It just baffles me how it is being said, in the case of "They don't have the right to be the judge," The ends doesn't justify the means.

How ever in the preceding event, Stopping the criminals and then bring them to the point where they can be judged. The ends justify the means.

It just seems counter intuitive.

In one instance it's okay to act without being elected nor appointed by an elected official, yet in another it's not okay.

The question was asked when will they question the morality of locking people up. I don't see why they should question their actions if they aren't going to question all their actions.

[grolim]

The thing is, there is no due process for the guys they are holding. If they are found guilty, which would have happened, they cannot be held any other place. Plus as we saw with the General and Plastique, and with what we have seen in Arrow with Waller, these guys have a zero chance of winding up in prison. Really, when you get down to it, they are better off where they are now...if Wells wasn't evil/ up to something. They are not having bombs implanted into their brains and used as weapons. And, if Wells could do it, someone is trying to remove their powers so they CAN be released or put into the system. But, even as Joe noticed, the police are flat out not able to handle them. Not able to contain them. So neither is the system. If the team did not catch them they would either continue their rampage and kill more people, or the police would have to kill them since they could not catch them, or they get sucked into Waller's team and get a slightly more comfortable box to life in in exchange for a bombed brain and the occasional mission that could well be suicide. They know what they are doing is not really the best, but they also know it is the best that can be done...at this time.

[comicshorse]

T mission that could well be suicide. They know what they are doing is not really the best, but they also know it is the best that can be done...at this time.

But until they inform society at large about the existence of Metahumans it will ALWAYS be the best that can be done as no arrangements can be made to develop places to hold such prisoners until the world knows that such criminals exist

[Jayngfet]

If it's not their place to judge, then it isn't their place to play cops.

They just contaminate the crime scenes, and disrupt the due process in all it's forms. I don't get how it can be viewed okay to do it in one instance, but then it's not okay in another. By stopping these guys with superpowers as soon as they can, and locking them up so they can't perpetrate their crimes. They are in effect stopping any future innocent victims.

It just baffles me how it is being said, in the case of "They don't have the right to be the judge," The ends doesn't justify the means.

How ever in the preceding event, Stopping the criminals and then bring them to the point where they can be judged. The ends justify the means.

It just seems counter intuitive.

In one instance it's okay to act without being elected nor appointed by an elected official, yet in another it's not okay.

The question was asked when will they question the morality of locking people up. I don't see why they should question their actions if they aren't going to question all their actions.

It's a case of necessity.

Regular cops can't handle these people and regular prisons and courthouses may as well have a brightly lit exit sign for how fast they'd gat out. The city NEEDS the Flash to take down Metas and put them away. But that's all it needs the Flash for. Killing isn't something that they need to do, and thus it crosses a line.

[Kyberwulf]

Killing doesn't cross the line, if cops are allowed to do it in the course of executing their duties and if their aren't any other alternatives. Special teams are also created, such at SWAT, that are expected to do it.

If you are going to subvert due process, which Superheroes do on a regular basis, then why are you being so picky about what rules you subvert?

Let's look at another vigilante, because that's what all superheroes are, The Punisher. He is most well know for dispensing lethal justice. He takes the role to the extreme, which The Flash has been alluded too. Even The Punisher doesn't deprive anyone who is innocent of lesser crimes, of the right to live or freedom. He mostly stays out of the way of ordinary citizen and lets the cops do their job.

Also, The Flash wasn't outright killing people. He did the cop out thing of letting the Vict....er. Villains kill themselves.

On the topic of Plastique, while the events around her might have been manipulated. In the end it was still her choice to kill someone. She choose to kill them. That might be hard to swallow for some people, but that's what sets good guys from the bad guys. I am not saying I couldn't make a different choice if I was in the position. That wouldn't change the fact that I know right from wrong. So even she isn't

[grolim]

We are not sure it was Plastique's choice to kill. Wells seemed to be using some kind of mental mumbo jumbo. We know he has had access to Grodd, or maybe even that Grodd had access to him. We know he is a time traveler of some sort.

[comicshorse]

We are not sure it was Plastique's choice to kill. Wells seemed to be using some kind of mental mumbo jumbo. We know he has had access to Grodd, or maybe even that Grodd had access to him. We know he is a time traveler of some sort.

Also lets not forget how quickly he talked Girder into fighting for him rather than the sensible option of just escaping. Definitely thinking he's got some kind of mental manipulation p[ower going

[Pex]

Have to admit, three episodes in a row and Flash kept his shirt on and closed. For once it was actually a female character who had no shirt. Perhaps they aren't going the Tomorrow People route after all.

Speaking of, looks like they are going with Robbie Amell as Firestorm after all. Good for him getting the gig.

[Jayngfet]

Killing doesn't cross the line, if cops are allowed to do it in the course of executing their duties and if their aren't any other alternatives. Special teams are also created, such at SWAT, that are expected to do it.


Except of course there is an alternative. They have a prison right there.

Once things escalate and go public the government will probably build a supermax that they aren't hiding offseas. But until that point jailing them is the most ethical thing to do unless absolutley forced to kill. Which has always been the case for every superhero. Batman gets the luxury of having Arkham right there but every other cape needs a Phantom Zone or Oan Sciencell or what have you to do the same thing.

The normal authorities plain aren't equipped to handle this in any capacity. Hence why every officer of the law "in the know" is forced to admit that crazy people in masks are the better group to handle this than themselves. Because police aren't trained nor armed to fight things like global assassin clans nor men who can turn into iron.

[grolim]

Batman gets the luxury of having Arkham right there but every other cape needs a Phantom Zone or Oan Sciencell or what have you to do the same thing.



Not sure you can call something with a revolving door a luxury. I think most of Gotham would greatly prefer a phantom zone or something. Some Chinese finger traps, gorilla glue, and a paper bag would hold some people longer than Arkham.

[Jayngfet]

Not sure you can call something with a revolving door a luxury. I think most of Gotham would greatly prefer a phantom zone or something. Some Chinese finger traps, gorilla glue, and a paper bag would hold some people longer than Arkham.

And yet, when they're in there for a few weeks Batman officially does not need to deal with them. Unlike a hero running their own outfit, wherein they have to play cop and prison guard.

[Kyberwulf]

Yes, when he doesn't have to deal with them... he has to deal with the ones that had broken out recently. Then while he is dealing with them, the ones he just put in break out. then he has to deal with them. then when he puts them back into Arkham, he has to deal with the ones that just broke out... then while he is dealing with them.. the ones he just put into Arkham have broken out. Sprinkle in some random new baddies, and the common street thugs.. who also manage to break out of jail.

Also, I like how people are talking about the evil doctor, the flash is working with, as if the flash knows he is an evil doctor. Quit metagaming. The flash has every right to not suspect the doctor, from his point of view the doctor seems legit. Just because we are shown what we are shown doesn't mean it's universal knowledge every character on the show knows.

[Marcelinari]

So in regards to today's episode...

What happened with Wells at the end? Are there 2 Yellow Speedsters in play? If so, I thought that the unidentified one got the tachyon gizmo, why does Wells have it? I don't see how Wells could have played both roles in the deception, so there must be multiple Yellow Speedsters. I propose that the unidentified nemesis be called the Reverse Flash (as implied by the episode), and Wells be called Professor Zoom, but I'm looking for confirmation on these. I still don't know how PZ ended up with the tachyon gizmo, either.

[Dragonexx]

Could be some sort of time travel shenanigans. One of them is the present Harrison Wells, one of them is the future Harrison Wells.

[Seerow]

Could be some sort of time travel shenanigans. One of them is the present Harrison Wells, one of them is the future Harrison Wells.

My take on it was that they were one in the same, with some sort of shenanigans used by Wells to put on a show to put suspicion off of himself and steal the Tachyon thingamabobber simultaneously.

[huttj509]

My take on it was that they were one in the same, with some sort of shenanigans used by Wells to put on a show to put suspicion off of himself and steal the Tachyon thingamabobber simultaneously.

Tachyons and Superluminal travel. Combined with comic book science = time travel.

[Pex]

So far the prediction of Dr. Wells is the Lightning Man who killed Barry's mother holds true. They're also hinting Flash was there as well. Of the "cliff notes" I've read of the comics they appear to be following the comic story with a little poetic license.

Very cool to see Amanda Pays. They even show her picture of her younger days for nostalgia fans to make the connection. This Flash is its own show, as is right and all good, but yeah, "Thanks!" for the shout out.

[The New Bruceski]

It's Arrow not Flash but since the two shows are crossovering like crazy, how about that winter finale tonight y'all?
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10474741_784386241626580_534998794428215985_o.jpg

[Zmeoaice]

Wells being Barry's mother's killer just seems to obvious for them to be keeping it a secret. If that is the case I'd be pretty underwhelmed.

[huttj509]

Wells being Barry's mother's killer just seems to obvious for them to be keeping it a secret. If that is the case I'd be pretty underwhelmed.

How about Wells fighting Barry back in the past around Barry's mother, than Barry pulls Barry out of the house after Wells kills Barry's mother?

Or Wells going forward to the future at the normal rate, until The Flash disappears, when Wells as Reverse Flash starts going backwards, giving his former self the tech needed to build the future room and set things in motion, as it turns out that Reverse Flash going backwards also pulled Barry back with him, culminating in an epic battle around young Barry's mother, as both of them try to stop the whole thing happening in the first place?

[The New Bruceski]

I think if you go with a double time-loop theory,
Wells has to be the later iteration. He's had knowledge of the effect his plans would have, and he fed info to RF in the showdown. (all speculation here, particularly the last one)
"I know your powers are almost the same as the Flash" = "You don't work the same and can get out."
"I know your cells regenerate and that's how you can withstand the damage inside there" = "feel free to beat me up" (BTW he does heal in the last scene, just very subtly, so Welles can control when it happens)
"Detective Thawne, care to read him his rights" = "you know that name, don't hurt the guy for timeline reasons"

[Flickerdart]

So, the first episode of the year is out.


Are the police literally stupid? They evacuated the whole area, you have two morons standing there waiting for the Flash. Morons who don't have sweet ninja moves that make Arrow's villains plausibly dangerous, just dudes with energy guns. Shoot them with your bullet guns.

[Seerow]

So, the first episode of the year is out.


Are the police literally stupid? They evacuated the whole area, you have two morons standing there waiting for the Flash. Morons who don't have sweet ninja moves that make Arrow's villains plausibly dangerous, just dudes with energy guns. Shoot them with your bullet guns.


I agree. Flash's villains in general require a lot of mental gymnastics to ignore the fact that the majority of them should not pose any real threat to the flash, and "Captain Cold" in particular shouldn't be too much more dangerous than a thug with an assault rifle. Which is to say, someone to be wary of, and is definitely dangerous, but not something the Flash is needed to handle, and not something that should be difficult if the Flash does step in.

[Flickerdart]

I agree. Flash's villains in general require a lot of mental gymnastics to ignore the fact that the majority of them should not pose any real threat to the flash, and "Captain Cold" in particular shouldn't be too much more dangerous than a thug with an assault rifle. Which is to say, someone to be wary of, and is definitely dangerous, but not something the Flash is needed to handle, and not something that should be difficult if the Flash does step in.

Eh, I buy that it's a super speshul cold gun that negates Barry's powers if Cold manages to shoot it, and that it has a much wider area of effect than a regular gun (plus it's a continuous beam, and we've seen this incarnation have trouble with inertia). But it shouldn't be that hard to punch him before he can even pull the trigger.

The fire one though...isn't the whole point of the suit that it's heat-proof, since Barry experiences hella friction?

[Kitten Champion]

God, you can't simply shoot villains. You have to point a gun at them for long enough that they can either disarm you, kill you, or get away -- that's just being sporting.

[BWR]

Eh, I buy that it's a super speshul cold gun that negates Barry's powers if Cold manages to shoot it, and that it has a much wider area of effect than a regular gun (plus it's a continuous beam, and we've seen this incarnation have trouble with inertia). But it shouldn't be that hard to punch him before he can even pull the trigger.

The fire one though...isn't the whole point of the suit that it's heat-proof, since Barry experiences hella friction?


Comic book logic. Every time these pesky questions come up, I just remind myself that it's comic book logic silly drama that is important, not thinking things through, and sit back and enjoy the show.
Shouldn't superspeed be an autowin button for just about all Barry's problems? Yes, but CBL amd drama need it to be unreliable.
Shouldn't X be a big problem for Barry? CBL &SD
Why does Character X act like an idiot or suddenly do the opposite of something they've spent the whole episode doing? CBL & SD.

[Flickerdart]

Shouldn't superspeed be an autowin button for just about all Barry's problems?
Well, no. Barry is very clearly not at the height of his powers. He has problems with inertia. His speed isn't always "on." He can't go from zero to Mach 1 in the blink of an eye. It also seems like he can't use his powers when he's in a lot of pain (but only sometimes) and has no way of handling area of effect attacks. If his enemies actually beat him this way, it wouldn't be a problem. But they consistently win in stupid ways instead.

And the whole "moving so fast that the person next to you can't see you pacing back and forth" thing that was supposed to show how he was so in love with what's her face completely ruined all of this because it showed Barry was capable of this incredible speed that we never see again.

[BWR]

Well, no. Barry is very clearly not at the height of his powers. He has problems with inertia. His speed isn't always "on." He can't go from zero to Mach 1 in the blink of an eye. It also seems like he can't use his powers when he's in a lot of pain (but only sometimes) and has no way of handling area of effect attacks. If his enemies actually beat him this way, it wouldn't be a problem. But they consistently win in stupid ways instead.


Comicbook logic.

[huttj509]

So, recently been playing the 3rd Phoenix Wright game. The Flash episode kept me thinking of the latest case I did.

The fire guy made clear to me what this guy would be like in person:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZRN2-488g0&t=4m1s (just a few seconds till the pertinent part)

[leafman]

So, the first episode of the year is out.


Are the police literally stupid? They evacuated the whole area, you have two morons standing there waiting for the Flash. Morons who don't have sweet ninja moves that make Arrow's villains plausibly dangerous, just dudes with energy guns. Shoot them with your bullet guns.


I had some trouble with this too. When the villains with no super powers announce when and where they will be and the police take the time to block off the area, why is the Flash needed? A sharpshooter could easily take them down and risk fewer lives and property damage.

[BWR]

I had some trouble with this too. When the villains with no super powers announce when and where they will be and the police take the time to block off the area, why is the Flash needed? A sharpshooter could easily take them down and risk fewer lives and property damage.

Comicbook logic.

[Cheesegear]

Dominc Purcell and Wentworth Miller. Hang on, I know this show (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455275/)!

If Sis (Did I hear 'Nadia'?) is played by this lady (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0915637/?ref_=tt_cl_t5), I will flip out. It's not like she's in Walking Dead anymore.

Scratch that. She's already cast.

...and then there's the fact that Clock King is also T-Bag.

[The New Bruceski]

Dominc Purcell and Wentworth Miller. Hang on, I know this show (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455275/)!

If Sis (Did I hear 'Nadia'?) is played by this lady (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0915637/?ref_=tt_cl_t5), I will flip out. It's not like she's in Walking Dead anymore.

Scratch that. She's already cast.

...and then there's the fact that Clock King is also T-Bag.

And Peter Stormare is Count Vertigo. Arrow and Flash have been big ol' reunions of Prison Break and Spartacus (Slade, Captain Boomerang, Amanda Waller, Nyssa Al Ghul, and one debuting on Flash in a few weeks).

[comicshorse]

Ok comic book logic and all but boy was that a dumb epsiode for all the reasons people said but also crossing the beams will defeat the bad guys, so will punching them in the head ! Seriously how many times did Flash shoot pass them trying to get them to cross the beams when he could have just punched them, or taken their guns

[Seerow]

Ok comic book logic and all but boy was that a dumb epsiode for all the reasons people said but also crossing the beams will defeat the bad guys, so will punching them in the head ! Seriously how many times did Flash shoot pass them trying to get them to cross the beams when he could have just punched them, or taken their guns

Really the whole thing would be a lot easier to swallow if the guns actually gave the wielder some metahuman powers rather than just being guns. Like I could easily see captain cold having an aura of cold around him, protecting him from most mundane attacks and slowing down the Flash as he approaches, forcing Barry to find a way to deal with him that isn't just running up and grabbing the gun or punching the dude in the head. And at the same time you are introducing a plot element of equipment that effectively turn normal people into metahumans temporarily, and you have both a plausible plot for problem of the week and a long term story hook for the show, without changing too much of anything else in how things played out.

[Metahuman1]

Really the whole thing would be a lot easier to swallow if the guns actually gave the wielder some metahuman powers rather than just being guns. Like I could easily see captain cold having an aura of cold around him, protecting him from most mundane attacks and slowing down the Flash as he approaches, forcing Barry to find a way to deal with him that isn't just running up and grabbing the gun or punching the dude in the head. And at the same time you are introducing a plot element of equipment that effectively turn normal people into metahumans temporarily, and you have both a plausible plot for problem of the week and a long term story hook for the show, without changing too much of anything else in how things played out.

Pretty much this. I literally spent the whole show down thinking that the police, who have a task force dedicated to catching the flash specifically, were gonna have sharp shooters on roof tops a half mile or more away, take them all out. Or at least, try to.

Or for Cap Cold to reveal he had some kind of bombs around or something to keep the cops hands tied till after it was over or something. Seriously, was it that hard when he made the calling your out video to go "Oh, and by the way, I've planted some bombs around the city in random locations so that if anyone comes withing 3 miles of this fight, I can kill thousands of people instantly. So, Cops, keep your distance, the only one's I want to see there tonight are me, my partner, and the Flash."

[comicshorse]

Really the whole thing would be a lot easier to swallow if the guns actually gave the wielder some metahuman powers rather than just being guns. Like I could easily see captain cold having an aura of cold around him, protecting him from most mundane attacks and slowing down the Flash as he approaches, forcing Barry to find a way to deal with him that isn't just running up and grabbing the gun or punching the dude in the head. And at the same time you are introducing a plot element of equipment that effectively turn normal people into metahumans temporarily, and you have both a plausible plot for problem of the week and a long term story hook for the show, without changing too much of anything else in how things played out.

Thinking about this it makes sense in other ways to. Captain Cold is clearly different from when he was introduced. I can't see the cold, professional criminal that he initially was portrayed as broadcasting his face and where he was going to be to every policeman in town.
Heatwave even points out he's gone from being someone who plans every detail of a crime for minimal risk and exposure to someone obsessed with the Flash. So it already looks like the guns are affecting their users minds

[Metahuman1]

That could make a cool reveal later down the line.



"Um, yeah, not to add pressure, but, I think that tech I made is actually giving them brain tumors that are effecting there mental functions."

[Jayngfet]

To be fair though, it wouldn't have done much good. Barry I.D. him instantly based on the damage and a hood and goggles would have been better than a lot of criminals work with anyway.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

I am on the fence with the second half of the season... and after being blown away with the first half that is disappointing. I do dig the idea of them finally saying the words "Speed force"

[Clertar]

It's a little embarrassing how B movie this show is becoming.

[Lizard Lord]

It's a little embarrassing how B movie this show is becoming.

By embarrassing you mean awesome right? The B movie thing is the only reason I started watching! :smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

I just couldn't take anymore of it after the mid-season break. The action is fine and some of the characters are acceptable, but it's so much of the weepy melodrama.

[Cheesegear]

but it's so much of the weepy melodrama.

Let me tell you about The CW...

[Kitten Champion]

Let me tell you about The CW...

I know, believe me I know.

I will watch one of their shows in spite of that - and the obnoxious casting - if the rest of it is enough to make me see beyond it. At some point The Flash fell beneath my tolerance threshold.

[The New Bruceski]

If you couldn't take the melodrama, good news: Barry outed his feelings for Iris, things were awkward for a bit but they're buds again. Other than that it's a bunch of running on buildings, giggling about how cool Barry's powers are, and wondering if Wells would be LESS obvious if he just got a shirt that said "totally not the bad guy."

[Cheesegear]

Wells would be LESS obvious if he just got a shirt that said "totally not the bad guy."

Wait, somebody on The CW acquires a shirt? Now we're talking about a whole new show.

[TheEmerged]

So, since the series is doing well enough, they released (or possibly re-released) the original show on DvD. I picked it up and finally cleared out the buffer in front of it...

Pilot
Oh Dear God, I forgot how fake the fight scenes on the show looked back then (due to the limitations on the actor's movement in the suit). Unfortunately I did remember how much it seemed informed by the success of the Batman films - they're doing *way* better with making the character feel like Barry in the new show. I also had a good laugh at the time-based nostalgia (I can't wait to have to explain to the younger kids in the gaming group what a pay phone is, for example).

[Metahuman1]

Just an aside, wasn't the 90's show about Wally?

[TheEmerged]

Nope (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098798/?ref_=nv_sr_2), it's Barry.

[Drakeburn]

I can't help but notice a difference between the 90's Flash and CW's Flash.

That a lot of the bad guys from the 90's Flash are either insane, armed with high-tech gear, or a bit of both.

The CW's Flash however, actually has metahumans in the show.

But one of the things I find painful about the CW Flash is the logic/common sense. Somebody mentioned that the Flash could've saved Multiplex if he just sped on outside and catch him, and somebody else mentioned that the Flash could've just taken the gun from Captain Cold instead of listen to what he has to say when they were on the train.
Another thing I would like to add to it was why did the Flash need Heatwave and Captain Cold to cancel out each others guns? If the Flash really has been training to become faster, why couldn't he just snatch the weapons out of their hands!? It would've been less painful than slowing down for their aim. Sheesh.

And Barry Allen in the 90's Flash was smarter than the CW's Barry Allen. I mean, in one of the Crossover episodes he didn't bother to have his mask on when he was going out for sushi!!!! The 90's Flash wasn't this careless! He was actually a lot more careful keeping his secret identity.

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy the CW Flash, but deep down in my heart, I know that the 90's Flash was better.

[BassWalker]

Another thing I would like to add to it was why did the Flash need Heatwave and Captain Cold to cancel out each others guns? If the Flash really has been training to become faster, why couldn't he just snatch the weapons out of their hands!? It would've been less painful than slowing down for their aim. Sheesh.

If I remember correctly, the first Captain Cold episode stated that his gun radiates a field of cold that slows Barry down, doesn't it? He probably doesn't want to get too close to it. Given Barry's age (low-mid twenties?) and relative youth as a superhero (it's been all of a few months, I think), I'm willing to overlook this. This Barry is still very inexperienced, as the Green Arrow (**** you, I'm not calling him The Arrow) had to teach him why he should look around the room he just ran into before stopping, and very cocky and sure of his speed. I am hoping to see some change and actual growth into the genius-playing-dumb that The Flash is (or, am I thinking of Wally here? I admit to knowing him mostly through the Justice League cartoon), but for now, it seems alright.

Besides, the show would be 99% melodrama and 1% action if he were to actually think about things rather than the 90% melodrama and 10% action that it is now. :smalltongue:

[Pex]

So, since the series is doing well enough, they released (or possibly re-released) the original show on DvD. I picked it up and finally cleared out the buffer in front of it...

Pilot
Oh Dear God, I forgot how fake the fight scenes on the show looked back then (due to the limitations on the actor's movement in the suit). Unfortunately I did remember how much it seemed informed by the success of the Batman films - they're doing *way* better with making the character feel like Barry in the new show. I also had a good laugh at the time-based nostalgia (I can't wait to have to explain to the younger kids in the gaming group what a pay phone is, for example).

Listen carefully to Mark Hamill as The Trickster. He's using his Joker voice. This was before the animated Batman series.

[BWR]

Listen carefully to Mark Hamill as The Trickster. He's using his Joker voice. This was before the animated Batman series.

Yup. apart from the looks I couldn't really tell much of a difference between Hamill's Trickster and his Joker. T was a bit more prop-focused and a bit more delusional, but both were unapologetic murderous crazies with a fondness for wackiness.

[Cheesegear]

Listen carefully to Mark Hamill as The Trickster. He's using his Joker voice.

Hamill doesn't hide it. He's convinced the only reason he got The Joker was because of his role as The Trickster, beforehand.

[Pex]

Nice we get a first quick look at Grodd. Also nice they're going full on with Firestorm.

Previews show Robbie Amell returns. Shocking, he has his shirt off! I was wondering how long that would take.

[BWR]

Fun to see that they had the 'feel the bullet in his neck' thing, but it brings up the question why he doesn't react that fast normally these days. I know, I know: imperfect control, panic powers, comicbook logic.
Otherwise a decent episode. I was unexpectedly moved by joe getting Barry's father to happen to pass by at Iron Heights and the 'confession' scene between them was somewhat touching, if ridiculously clichéed.

Now for the laughs: my immediate thought upon seeing the workers in the tunnels was "are they bringing Killer Croc into this? I know Arrow has been shamelessly pinching Batman's rouges but this show too?" Then I saw 'Grodd' on the walls and for a few seconds wondered why they thought brinigng in a giant super-strong zombie villain was any better. Too little sleep. Bleh.

[huttj509]

BTW, who says "this place is really antiquated"? I don't phrase things like that, and I have been (literally) scolded for using language that "normal people don't use."

[Pex]

Alright, I found the words to explain why a shirtless Robbie Amell bothers me so much. It's not about his appearance. He's certainly a handsome fellow, and while not having a gym body he is also not a toothpick. He looks good and gets fan girls' and some fan boys' hearts a flutter. His career is irrelevant to me. Whether he manages to attain the stardom Ken Olandt failed to achieve is still up in the air. He has fandom, but it took even George Clooney many tries to get stardom. Clooney had guest starring roles in Facts of Life and Roseanne and starred in a failed sit-com called E/R.

What bothers me is why I think Amell is not achieving stardom. It's not directly because he's always taking his shirt off. He's not the first and won't be the last actor to have shirtless scenes. He's not achieving stardom because he's always being a himbo, and it's him being a himbo that causes my problem. He's never the character. He's not being taken seriously. Robbie is there so the writers come up with an excuse to have him take his shirt off. He's eye candy taking away from the imagination of the story. He's the current male equivalent of Audrey and Judy Landers, twin actresses who appeared in various 1970's television shows just to look pretty and pretend their characters have a point. There is even a video of him online attending a Comic-Con event where someone asks him to take off his shirt and the audience eggs him on. Some actors have to go through this phase. Captain America himself, Chris Evans, was a naked banana split once. He still does the occasional shirtless scene in a movie, even just holding a towel, but you are watching a character, not Chris Evans reciting lines while shirtless. That's Robbie Amell. That's The Tomorrow People. That's the first half of Flash's premier season which thankfully they have moved passed, at least until Robbie returns.

There's an Off-Broadway show called Naked Men Singing. Who really goes there for the singing?

[Antonok]

Somethings been bothering me about the newest episode:

How the **** did Martin Stein know the facility was going to explode and to be in the exact spot he was?

[TheEmerged]

Original Series, Ep 2 & 3.
Did I mention how fake the fight scenes look? The casino fight in Ep 3 was... fake isn't even a strong enough word. We're talking Keystone Cops level bad. I'm actually liking the rest of the series well enough - the only other complaint I might have is that there's a degree of "overacting", but that appears to be done on purpose so I'm letting it slide. The one thing I'll credit them for is that most of the fights have been the cakewalks they should be against non-super opponents.

Apparently Hamill isn't the only thing Batman:TAS borrowed from the series though. I noticed a familiar strain of music when I closed my eyes during one of the fight sequences - either both Original Flash and B:TAS borrowed from the same source, or B:TAS homaged some of the music from Original Flash too. Specifically the "Da da da DAAAAAAAA Da... da DA!" line.

Regarding episode 3, is there an official TV Trope for "the surest way to die in a Superhero show is to be a newly-introduced character who finds out the hero's secret ID?" I'm always afraid to go the site itself while at work.

[Metahuman1]

I'm rather pleased with this ep. And it was a LOT better then the Arrow ep from this past week.

[Pex]

Flash had his shirt off again. It's been awhile, having abandoned the alternate episode pattern. Given the story that was being told, acceptable in this instance. As for Robbie Amell, he's been working out. :smallamused:

Suspicion confirmed Flash went to the past. Dr. Wells suspected, but no in character formal proof yet. Next week should be interesting.

[Antonok]

New Episode:

One of the best episodes so far IMO. Had a lot going on.

Barry learns about his role in the fight 15 years ago (and starts planning for it). Firestorm learns to fuse willingly and stay in control. Grodd shows himself. Wells unmasks himself (and confirms he is the reverse flash). The genral gets (presumably) gets taken out.

And the most important part, the Game of Thrones reference. :smalltongue:

[BWR]

[QUOTE=Antonok;18843370
Wells unmasks himself (and confirms he is the reverse flash).
[/QUOTE]

We actually knew this quite a while ago, since we've seen both Wells move at superspeed (like when Pied Piper attacked his house) and the RF suit in his secret future mini-lab.

[TheEmerged]

But is he the *same* Reverse Flash :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

The good: Firestorm was GLORIOUS!!!

Grodd was awesome.

And we finally locked in that Wells is Reverse Flash.


The Bad: Iris. Freaking Iris. *Headdesk*.

And, oh god, it finally dawned on me, I think there setting up the freaking Flashpoint Paradox storyline. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[BassWalker]

The good: Firestorm was GLORIOUS!!!

Grodd was awesome.

And we finally locked in that Wells is Reverse Flash.


The Bad: Iris. Freaking Iris. *Headdesk*.

And, oh god, it finally dawned on me, I think there setting up the freaking Flashpoint Paradox storyline. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Agreed on all counts, except... Could someone explain to me how the Flashpoint Paradox storyline would be bad, as someone who doesn't read the comics? The only bit of it that I know of is from the animated movie, and I thought that it was decent (Aquaman and Wonder Woman destroy the earth over something so unbelievably petty... it's glorious). Things would have to be drastically different for this Flash, of course, but the concept of the butterfly effect is something that does interest me, and it's something that I like to see tackled in media.

[Jayngfet]

The Bad: Iris. Freaking Iris. *Headdesk*.

And, oh god, it finally dawned on me, I think there setting up the freaking Flashpoint Paradox storyline. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Really Star Labs doesn't actually make sense when you think about it. Ok, so science runs amok and like a dozen people get killed in the aftermath.

...but somehow everyone involved just shows up back to work monday with no trial or investigation. They still get a blank cheque to develop dangerous devices and outright weapons with no oversight and no accountability. There's not even anyone else working there anymore to question why they're locking people in the basement except like, maybe a couple of janitors, who can access the aforementioned weapons and steal them with no security systems until long gone.

I mean who's even still paying this bunch of 20 and 30 somethings to show up five days a week to twiddle their thumbs? Government grant money is like, impossible to hold onto even for respectable organizations and there doesn't seem to be a private benefactor stepping in.

[Flickerdart]

I mean who's even still paying this bunch of 20 and 30 somethings to show up five days a week to twiddle their thumbs? Government grant money is like, impossible to hold onto even for respectable organizations and there doesn't seem to be a private benefactor stepping in.
Maybe the Reverse Flash robs banks on the way home.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe he set up a massive trust fund by knowing winning lottery numbers and the right stocks to buy and sell and when before he even founded STAR labs so that THAT could never be an issue. It's the sort of thing he'd do during a preparation phase.


That said, Jayngfet, what does that have to do with my "The Bad" for this ep?

[GenericMook]

Yeah, but I think that it would be handled differently here. They don't have the absurd cast that comics do, so seeing Barry ruin the predestination paradox and the ensuing ripple effect might be interesting.

As with a lot of things, the Flashpoint story had an interesting concept, but it was poorly handled. Hopefully it's different with a smaller cast.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Flashpoint Paradox. If all you know is the animated movie, that's why you don't understand how it would be bad. The movie was much better than the books (like Ben Hur, a rare example of that). Main problem I see is that it'd just have to be very different given the limited number of metahumans so far. It actually could work given the "half season" format the show is using; I don't think one episode would do it justice but it's not something I'd want too many episodes of.

RE: Iris. Yeah, she's been guilty of holding the idiot ball up to this point, it's overdue.

RE: Original Series. So, just about done with this. Yeah, the fight scenes remained horrible throughout - a friend of mine in the gaming group is going to borrow the DvD's to show his kids in the hopes they'll appreciate how far things have come. Still, you have to give it credit for being better written than a lot of things of the era and Hamil's Trickster is indeed a highpoint of the series.

RE: Star Labs. It's been implied a couple of times that Wells is pretty stinking rich on his own. And yes, as a time traveller he could very well have made it thnks to convenient knowledge.

[thorgrim29]

Depending on how far back he went, he could win one jackpot and get in on the ground floor of some IPOs (or buy out a minor apple shareholder in 1978). You could also make ridiculous amounts of money trading oil futures if you know when the crashes will happen. You could buy stock in solid companies when it was undervalued in early 2009.

Why yes, I do spend a lot of idle time thinking about what I would do if I could do over my life starting from around 2008. I drive about an hour a day and it's that or my zombie plan.

Anyway, I have 2 questions regarding Wells. 1: Why is he crippled some of the time and a super strong speedster the rest? 2: What's the deal with the tachion device? And why didn't the team (at least Cisco) realize that was what he used for the Firestorm controller?

[GenericMook]

Being crippled is his cover. He can't be the Reverse Flash if he's stuck to a wheelchair.

[Antonok]

It's possible that during the fight, Wells used the device to merge himself with older Barry.

I do wonder where the hell old Barry is at, and unless during the fight he accidentally time travelled again, he should be around somewhere.

[thorgrim29]

Being crippled is his cover.


And yet it isn't totally, because when he was attacked by Pied piper his legs gave out and he ranted to his computer about his powers not being stable, suggesting what when his powers are not working he's actually crippled

[leafman]

His issues with his powers could be feedback from altering the time stream. Wells is trying to guide Barry on a certain path, but it sometimes not everything goes according to plan. I don't remember which episode it was, but Wells consulted his future computer and it couldn't find what he was looking for at that time and after Wells corrected Barry's course, the article Well's wanted could be found again.

[Metahuman1]

I think the Powers not working right is a Nod to Crisis on Infinite Earths actually.


In CoIE, Flash is the creator of the speedforce, which is what gives both him and RF there powers (And KF and a number of other characters.). Flash, Barry Allen, Dies at the end of the event, and saves the multyverse in so doing, but his death horribly damages the speed force, which leaves other characters like Wally West a LOT slower for a good bit of time as a result.

And we know Wells knows Flash is gonna die in a "Crisis" in the future, and he's complaining about Speed Force issues.


Which is kinda neat, but the whole go back in time and save mom thing, god, *Headdesk.* there gonna ruin this.

[GenericMook]

It's possible that during the fight, Wells used the device to merge himself with older Barry.

I do wonder where the hell old Barry is at, and unless during the fight he accidentally time travelled again, he should be around somewhere.

Depends. If they play this out and have normal-Barry realize that saving his mom ruins the timeline, and that he needs to fail, then it's possible that old-Barry is biding his time, because his interference could wreck everything.

Either that, or older Barry is dead. We don't actually know anything about the fight between RF & old Barry, aside from the fact that Nora gets killed and Barry is left on the street.

[Dragonus45]

My theory is that they are going to use a toned down version of the Flashpoint plot to change the setting in a way that will make it easier for them to fit a few more shows in. Also I hope they get around to having Firestorm do more than just shoot fire at things.

[Metahuman1]

Bearing in mind that he's just started to not fight the mere existence of his powers.

As for Flashpoint, there's no reason to do that though, unless they either wanna Reboot Arrow to be MORE comicbookish (I'd be ok with this.) or they want to change things over to the New 52.

Particularly since there hinting that Titans and Supergirl and Vixen are all gonna share that universe since WB own's all of them.

[Flickerdart]

As for Flashpoint, there's no reason to do that though, unless they either wanna Reboot Arrow to be MORE comicbookish (I'd be ok with this.) or they want to change things over to the New 52.
Why would it reboot Arrow? Nothing Barry's done has affected him, really - unless you mean that without a Flash, Oliver will go fight the metahumans instead of saving his city?

[Metahuman1]

No, I mean make alterations to the timeline that effect how things played out for the last three seasons. Olly didn't go Kill Happy when he got back in town, none of this groan inducing trip down memory lane with Amanda Waller, all the really bad characterization we've had of Laurael going way and making her a Metahuman.


Make it closer to the Comic Canon.



I'm not saying they WILL do it, but I'm saying it could happen. Or they could decide to reboot it all to make it match New 52 Canon cause there kinda stupid right now, who knows.

[Flickerdart]

No, I mean make alterations to the timeline that effect how things played out for the last three seasons. Olly didn't go Kill Happy when he got back in town, none of this groan inducing trip down memory lane with Amanda Waller, all the really bad characterization we've had of Laurael...
None of this was affected by the Flash, though. The whole point of Flashpoint is that events play out as if the Flash never existed.

[grolim]

None of this was affected by the Flash, though. The whole point of Flashpoint is that events play out as if the Flash never existed.

If he saves his mother, then Wells fails. Then Wells does not use future knowledge to build up a fortune and get in high at STAR labs. Without STAR lab projects, that maybe had contracts with Queen the company goes through a recession or something and his father loses the yacht that he was on when stranded and Oliver never goes on the trip. I am not saying it is a high probability but when dealing with mass fortunes and high tech finance, anything is possible to affect the rich Queens. Who knows, without Wells and STAR labs, Merlyn might not have a key component in the earthquake machine for a couple of years later.

[Metahuman1]

The whole point of Flashpoint was to alter the timeline to make the New 52 happen and remove decades of Canon. Which is why introducing this element now is utterly baffling.

[Starbuck_II]

Somethings been bothering me about the newest episode:

How the **** did Martin Stein know the facility was going to explode and to be in the exact spot he was?

He did the math? You know how physicist can predict how experiments go with math/calculations on a chalk board in stories. So he figured out in a worst case where he would be safest.

[Hopeless]

So if they do go with a Flashpoint arc... does this mean Robert Queen becomes the Arrow and kills Wells so Flash can correct his mistake before Eiling accidentally sets off World War III through his mishandling of Grodd?

[Clertar]

I haven't seen it mentioned, although it's been my pet theory ever since we confirmed that Wells was the reverse Flash:

I think that Wells is the old Barry, the one whose blood they found, who was damaged or depowered during his failed fight to stop the original Reverse Flash from killing his mother. After staying trapped in the alternate timeline he secured the original RF's suit (and maybe other loot), and spent the next 15 years building his flashcave and preparing the creation of that timeline's Flash. What's interesting is the RF that he interacted with in one episode, who is either (a) the original RF that actually didn't die, or (b) an earlier time-jumping RF, maybe one who then travelled to the past sooner than Barry to find out who the Flash was and kill him when he was a kid.

[Flickerdart]

I haven't seen it mentioned, although it's been my pet theory ever since we confirmed that Wells was the reverse Flash:

I think that Wells is the old Barry, the one whose blood they found, who was damaged or depowered during his failed fight to stop the original Reverse Flash from killing his mother. After staying trapped in the alternate timeline he secured the original RF's suit (and maybe other loot), and spent the next 15 years building his flashcave and preparing the creation of that timeline's Flash. What's interesting is the RF that he interacted with in one episode, who is either (a) the original RF that actually didn't die, or (b) an earlier time-jumping RF, maybe one who then travelled to the past sooner than Barry to find out who the Flash was and kill him when he was a kid.

Wells seems a little too ruthless for Barry. Yes, he's very protective of the Flash, but he has no problem with lying to his team, subjecting former colleagues to excruciating torture, or straight-up murder. Besides, Barry is a chemist, physics doesn't really seem to be his thing.

[Clertar]

Wells seems a little too ruthless for Barry. Yes, he's very protective of the Flash, but he has no problem with lying to his team, subjecting former colleagues to excruciating torture, or straight-up murder. Besides, Barry is a chemist, physics doesn't really seem to be his thing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CorruptTheCutie

[Gray Mage]

What I feel makes Wells incapable of being the Flash is that Cisco has Wells' blood sample. Wouldn't he also notice that they have the very same DNA?
I do, however, like the theory that there are two Reverse Flashes.

[Metahuman1]

Wells either messed with the computers running Cisco's test, or had his AI do it, and then pretended to be totally unaware of it.

[Clertar]

Wells either messed with the computers running Cisco's test, or had his AI do it, and then pretended to be totally unaware of it.

He had to do something to his blood sample anyway to prevent them from noticing that he's got those powers, so he might as well have also stored fake blood samples to hide his real identity altogether

Going back to when Wells faced and trapped the RF, it might just have been him all along. If he's a slightly depowered Barry Allen who can't time jump back to his time, he might still have enough power to do it on a micro scale, say some minutes or hours ahead or back, then return.

[TheEmerged]

Original Series.

So, I had a chance to check on a suspicion and, sure enough, I *did* recognize not one but two actresses better known for other roles in an episode. #16 to be exact, "Deadly Nightshade", the second episode with the retired pulp-style (and obvious Sandman one-off) Nightshade. What I did not suspect was the connection between the two actresses.

Who am I talking about? Denise Crosby played the psychologist with a beef against the Flash. She better known as Tasha Yar from Star Trek TNG. The surprise was when I checked the credits to see why I knew the young girl who played the heiress that's a hostage early in the episode and... it's Jeri Lynn Ryan, otherwise known as Seven Of Nine from Star Trek Voyager. So two Star Trek actresses (one past, one future) appeared in the episode.

[Gray Mage]

He had to do something to his blood sample anyway to prevent them from noticing that he's got those powers, so he might as well have also stored fake blood samples to hide his real identity altogether

Going back to when Wells faced and trapped the RF, it might just have been him all along. If he's a slightly depowered Barry Allen who can't time jump back to his time, he might still have enough power to do it on a micro scale, say some minutes or hours ahead or back, then return.

Good thought on the blood sample, didn't think about that possibility (which I'm actually very fond of).

The two RF theory is a thing because the one that beat Wells up is noticibly bulkier than the one that Barry met in the stadium, if I'm not mistaken.

[Dragonus45]

Why would it reboot Arrow? Nothing Barry's done has affected him, really - unless you mean that without a Flash, Oliver will go fight the metahumans instead of saving his city?

The idea of Flashpoint was that it resounded to create far more effects than just the things that the Flash had been involved in, it seemed to ripple out and change almost everything.

[3SecondCultist]

So... the new trailer for the next three episodes has been released! What do people think?

(Link is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4GyxUYAzJk))

[BassWalker]

Mark Hamill... That is all. :smallsmile:

[TheEmerged]

I love that they're using pictures from the original appearances... I wonder how they're going to weave this in, especially if they somehow can work in DadFlash into the story or if the "gumshoe", Prank, or anyone else from the original series is going to make an appearance as well?

[007_ctrl_room]

i had low expectations for the flash simply because it is on the CW, but i have been pleasantly surprised :)

[themaque]

I'm not sold on Clerter's theory, but I'm willing to wait to see what's happening. They have bought more than a little good will with me, as it's currently my favorite show on TV.

I'm still thinking he might be a Thawne of some sort.

I'm really psyched that Hammil is the Trickster again, using the original TV show footage is an amazing touch, and can not wait for that episode.

[TheEmerged]

Oh man, a lot is happening! Oh crap, I was expecting Cisco to find out but Caitlyn too? And now...

...wait, this is going to be a time travel thing isn't it?

Yep, it's time travel thing. What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

Well, now that THAT cliché is out of the way... My General Akbar sense is going off like a four alarm fire on that article clue. My instinct says it's a trap, not a real thing.

[Pex]

Wow! Dr. Wells comes clean on being Reverse Flash and kills Cisco. Barry and Iris claim their love for each other. Barry reveals to her he's the Flash. Rather than be upset he kept the secret, she admired his bravery. Excitement. Character development.

However, the Flash ran so fast he goes back into time, undoing everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP8sofAN4xc

The show resets. What are the odds Barry and Iris do it all again, if under different circumstances? Yeah, right.

It's such a common time travel trope. It was highly criticized in Star Trek Voyager. A sci-fi show can go all crazy with the script then TIME TRAVEL!!!, and it's all undone. The show goes back to normal.

It's for that reason I was thrilled the show Eureka used its time travel episode to change the show permanently. I got used to things, so all the characters being shifted around a bit took getting used to, but I was still thrilled the show never reset. Even when they went back the second time, the show did not take that opportunity to fix everything back and kept the changes. Yippee!

I do not accept the new timeline of the new Star Trek movies and find them atrocious, but that's another topic and I'm not keen yet on new Terminator either. Not resetting is a big risk in itself. Star Trek failed. Terminator is still to be determined. But I rant.

[Seerow]

I don't care that everything got reset, as long as Cisco doesn't die again. I'm happy to lose all of the other developments and go back to status quo as long as we keep him around. I swear I almost cried when Wells killed him. He's the best character on the show. If he went permanently I'm not sure I could keep watching.

Speaking of, Cisco died because he found out about the reverse flash because the hologram in there was still active months later. Why would Wells be so sloppy as to have that still there waiting to be found?




Also was it ever stated that the magic weather wand was a 1 time use thing and I just missed it? When you have a special item that negates all of your enemy's powers, why the **** are you trying to hunt the guy without carrying that **** with you? And why does Barry after stopping the guy not take the half a second of time to capture the now powerless supervillain running away before whisking the other dude to the hospital? That whole sequence pissed me off. And it sucks because the whole thing could have been avoided if they just hadn't introduced the weather neutralization wand. But they did put it in and thus made nothing else in the episode make any sense at all.

[Jayngfet]

I don't care that everything got reset, as long as Cisco doesn't die again. I'm happy to lose all of the other developments and go back to status quo as long as we keep him around. I swear I almost cried when Wells killed him. He's the best character on the show. If he went permanently I'm not sure I could keep watching.

Speaking of, Cisco died because he found out about the reverse flash because the hologram in there was still active months later. Why would Wells be so sloppy as to have that still there waiting to be found?




Also was it ever stated that the magic weather wand was a 1 time use thing and I just missed it? When you have a special item that negates all of your enemy's powers, why the **** are you trying to hunt the guy without carrying that **** with you? And why does Barry after stopping the guy not take the half a second of time to capture the now powerless supervillain running away before whisking the other dude to the hospital? That whole sequence pissed me off. And it sucks because the whole thing could have been avoided if they just hadn't introduced the weather neutralization wand. But they did put it in and thus made nothing else in the episode make any sense at all.

Cisco triple checked the machine for changes in the data. The only reason he didn't catch the recordings was because they'd have to be set in long before that point and couldn't be swapped out without being super notable. The recording would be fine so long as nobody physically turned it to those settings and went to switch it on and have a look at it.

[BWR]

I don't care that everything got reset, as long as Cisco doesn't die again. I'm happy to lose all of the other developments and go back to status quo as long as we keep him around. I swear I almost cried when Wells killed him. He's the best character on the show. If he went permanently I'm not sure I could keep watching.

Speaking of, Cisco died because he found out about the reverse flash because the hologram in there was still active months later. Why would Wells be so sloppy as to have that still there waiting to be found?




Also was it ever stated that the magic weather wand was a 1 time use thing and I just missed it? When you have a special item that negates all of your enemy's powers, why the **** are you trying to hunt the guy without carrying that **** with you? And why does Barry after stopping the guy not take the half a second of time to capture the now powerless supervillain running away before whisking the other dude to the hospital? That whole sequence pissed me off. And it sucks because the whole thing could have been avoided if they just hadn't introduced the weather neutralization wand. But they did put it in and thus made nothing else in the episode make any sense at all.

I just chant my mantra of "Comicbook logc, comicbook logic comicbook logic.
Ommmmmmmm"

I like Wells/Thawne's reveal and killing Cisco. I never cared much for Cisco so I'm fine with him being killed, but it was Wells' mastery of the scene that did it. I always wonder how these speedsters can be so sure no one is watching when they decide to speed up in public. Did Wells really think Caitlin wouldn't notice he was gone from his wheelchair? Or any other patrons of the cafe? Or even happen to be looking at him when he zipped off?

Apart from that, good episode.

Barry now breaking the time barrier: YAY!

[The New Bruceski]

I'm gonna have to assume that Barry's "oh boy" at the end there was a Quantum Leap reference.

[Nai_Calus]

Just saw this. Holy ****. :smalleek:


Barry didn't find out about Cisco before he went back. :smallsigh: So I'm worried they won't undo that. :smallfrown: Cisco's the best part of the show, dang it. :smallmad:

[RoboChap]

I'm gonna have to assume that Barry's "oh boy" at the end there was a Quantum Leap reference.

He travelled back in time to Put Right What Once Went Wrong. What else could he possibly say?!

[themaque]

Just saw this. Holy ****. :smalleek:


Barry didn't find out about Cisco before he went back. :smallsigh: So I'm worried they won't undo that. :smallfrown: Cisco's the best part of the show, dang it. :smallmad:


NO worries.
You see Cisco and Cold talking in the teaser for Next Week. So things are obviously going to be pretty different.

I'm still just WOWSERS! So my favorite show on TV!

[Antonok]

It's that time again.

So the Duo turns into a Trio. Very interested in the mechanics behind the Midas gun.

Really nice to know there are repercussions for screwing up the timeline. Though to be fair to Barry, he was facing an impossible choice either way it went.

But as it stands, overall progress. Cisco still lives, the usual CW the-love-girl-I-can't-have angst is still there, and one of Barry's enemies knows his identity, which played out nicely imo; and most importantly, Barry is now highly suspicious of Wells.

Also thought the scene in the force field room was a nice touch.

[Flickerdart]

I found it very difficult to care about, well, anything that happened in this episode. I think I must've skipped through half of the episode, including some of the action sequences, just because everything about Captain Cold is the most boring thing imaginable, except for Barry's relationship with what's her face, the cop's daughter, which is even more boring.

[huttj509]

It's that time again.



Also thought the scene in the force field room was a nice touch.

I can picture watching it with someone who hadn't seen last episode.

"Ok, nice pep talk...um, Hutt? Why are you cringing?"

[themaque]

I found it very difficult to care about, well, anything that happened in this episode. I think I must've skipped through half of the episode, including some of the action sequences, just because everything about Captain Cold is the most boring thing imaginable, except for Barry's relationship with what's her face, the cop's daughter, which is even more boring.

Captain Cold has always been one of my favorite villains, and I'm loving how he has been coming off this week.

I'm finding it funny how they are advertising next week. They KNOW their audiance, since we have seen a LOT of the OLD Trickster but very very little of the new boy. I'm curious what ratio of villains will be going to jail vs. joining the rouges now.

[Clertar]

An acute case of comic book logic, the agreement with Captain Cold :smallconfused: It looks oh so much worse in a live action show.

It's really unfortunate they signed a contract with the Prison Break guy to play Cold in N episodes. It's the most boring enemy and today was a low point. Not because of how embarrassed I felt about the talk in the forest, but because the supposedly table-turning guns just kept being used as normal revolvers in the hands of cognitively challenged amateurs.