[3.5] Can Ardents be a suitable replacement for Psion in cerebremancer build

[Ninane]

I want to say that I still have a very shaky understanding of 3.5e mechanics. If I say something that doesn't make sense, it's likely because I failed to understand the rules correctly. I apologize in advance and I'd appreciate any corrections offered. Thanks!

I wanted to make a cerebremancer build for battlefield control. Our campaign's party is currently at an ECL of 9 with a kender rogue, a human bard/mindbender, a druid/hathran, a human ranger/highland stalker, and a wizard/shadowcraft mage. We are permitted by our DM to use any sourcebook (excluding dragonlance) as well as web material. I originally planned to multiclass Wizard 2/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 7 Half-Nymph (Dragon #313) Kalashtar (Races of Eberron) (LA+2). The DM has given us a bonus feat for backstories and another bonus feat due to a mistake we just rolled with at the beginning of the campaign.

I read a suggestion online that Ardents can be used in place of Psion, utilizing the Extended Class: Ardent article (here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) to customize mantles to access a similar variety of Powers Known as Psions. A friend recommended I could use Precocious Apprentice and Practiced Manifester for early entry into the prc.

My questions are: can I use Ardent as a suitable replacement to Psion? Have I understood the principles of early entry correctly? Is the extra BAB and HD worth using Ardent over Psion?

Any suggestions on how to better construct this cerebremancer build would be quite welcome. I know the slayer build would result in less lost MLs, but that particular build is actually going to be another back-up character. Thank you all for your help!

[Squark]

It'd work, but you lose the INT synergy, which is a pain in the butt (Unless my memory is totally faulty and Ardents use Intelligence, but I'm pretty sure they use wisdom for Manifesting). Also, I think you could get away with Wizard 1/Ardent 3 (assuming you're using precocious apprentice).

[Ninane]

...Oh. Crap. One of the most fundamental aspects of the build and I've overlooked it. @_@ That basically makes everything else moot unless there's an arcane casting class not included on this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664) list that uses wis as their casting stat.

Thank you for your help.

[Red Fel]

Well, let's look at several things: BAB is overrated. You are playing a caster. Your typical action in a turn will be to manifest powers, not to perform an attack. As such, your BAB isn't an integral part of your build. The two classes are comparable. They get the same saves and progression of PP/day. But there are also areas where Psion is better. Psion gets more powers known (36 at 20, as opposed to Ardent's 21). Psion can pick from a more comprehensive list - all Psion powers are available, as opposed to the Ardent, who must choose from his limited mantle list (although they can be tweaked to taste). Psion gains bonus feats, and access to some rather diverse ACFs; Ardent gains more mantles, and that's basically it. (As an aside, Kalashtar also have access to Kalashtar Psion racial substitution levels.) As Squark mentioned, there is synergy to consider. A Psion, like a Wizard, really only needs to focus on one ability score - Int - and the rest takes care of itself. An Ardent/Wizard has to focus on both Int and Wis. While that's not a tremendous sacrifice, keep in mind that your key ability score is the limit on your use of powers and spells, and cranking both of those to 19+ won't be easy.
Now, as to your question about early entry, let's see. Cerebremancer requires skill ranks, and the ability to cast 2nd-level spells and manifest 2nd-level powers. Ignoring whether you meet the skill checks, let's look at the other two requirements. Spells: Precocious Apprentice gives you an extra 2nd-level spell slot, and if you're too low-level to cast 2nd-level spells, you can use it subject to some restrictions. I would argue that this counts as "ability to cast 2nd-level spells," and therefore qualifies you. Well done. Powers: Practiced Manifester does not give you the ability to manifest higher-level powers. It simply increases your manifester level, which impacts the amount of points you can spend on a power and any level-dependent variable effects a power may have. That said, a Psion 3 can use 2nd-level powers; I believe an Ardent 3 can as well.As such, yes, assuming you meet the skill prereqs, Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice) and Ardent 3 should qualify you for Cerebremancer.

[Divide by Zero]

Powers: Practiced Manifester does not give you the ability to manifest higher-level powers. It simply increases your manifester level, which impacts the amount of points you can spend on a power and any level-dependent variable effects a power may have. That said, a Psion 3 can use 2nd-level powers; I believe an Ardent 3 can as well.[/list]As such, yes, assuming you meet the skill prereqs, Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice) and Ardent 3 should qualify you for Cerebremancer.

Ardent's maximum power level is based on their manifester level, not their class level. While they're less powerful than a single-classed Psion, they're much more dip-friendly because of this.

OP: would Psychic Theurge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) work for you, or are you set on an arcane caster?

[Baroknik]

Well, let's look at several things: BAB is overrated. You are playing a caster. Your typical action in a turn will be to manifest powers, not to perform an attack. As such, your BAB isn't an integral part of your build. The two classes are comparable. They get the same saves and progression of PP/day. But there are also areas where Psion is better. Psion gets more powers known (36 at 20, as opposed to Ardent's 21). Psion can pick from a more comprehensive list - all Psion powers are available, as opposed to the Ardent, who must choose from his limited mantle list (although they can be tweaked to taste). Psion gains bonus feats, and access to some rather diverse ACFs; Ardent gains more mantles, and that's basically it. (As an aside, Kalashtar also have access to Kalashtar Psion racial substitution levels.) As Squark mentioned, there is synergy to consider. A Psion, like a Wizard, really only needs to focus on one ability score - Int - and the rest takes care of itself. An Ardent/Wizard has to focus on both Int and Wis. While that's not a tremendous sacrifice, keep in mind that your key ability score is the limit on your use of powers and spells, and cranking both of those to 19+ won't be easy.
Now, as to your question about early entry, let's see. Cerebremancer requires skill ranks, and the ability to cast 2nd-level spells and manifest 2nd-level powers. Ignoring whether you meet the skill checks, let's look at the other two requirements. Spells: Precocious Apprentice gives you an extra 2nd-level spell slot, and if you're too low-level to cast 2nd-level spells, you can use it subject to some restrictions. I would argue that this counts as "ability to cast 2nd-level spells," and therefore qualifies you. Well done. Powers: Practiced Manifester does not give you the ability to manifest higher-level powers. It simply increases your manifester level, which impacts the amount of points you can spend on a power and any level-dependent variable effects a power may have. That said, a Psion 3 can use 2nd-level powers; I believe an Ardent 3 can as well.As such, yes, assuming you meet the skill prereqs, Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice) and Ardent 3 should qualify you for Cerebremancer.

All true except that an ardent can choose powers based on manifested level, not total ardent level (at least after 1st).

[Red Fel]

All true except that an ardent can choose powers based on manifested level, not total ardent level (at least after 1st).

... Huh, I think you're right. Yeah, Ardent manifesting has always puzzled me a bit.

[Ninane]

OP: would Psychic Theurge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) work for you, or are you set on an arcane caster?

I guess I'd need to ask a question before I could say yes or no: is the divine spell list more useful for control purposes or the arcane? Up until this point, I've never played any sort of manifester or caster and until recently have never played with a dedicated spellcaster until our shadowcraft wizard joined the table to learn by proxy.

[ranagrande]

One thing you should keep in mind is that prestige classes, including Cerebremancer and Psychic Theurge, do not grant additional mantles to the Ardent. If you use early entry tricks to get in with a level 1 Ardent, you'll only have two mantles to choose powers from, and even at the "normal" third level entry, you'll be limited to only three mantles.

This is a big reason why Psions or even Wilders are better than Ardents for this sort of thing.

[Psyren]

I guess I'd need to ask a question before I could say yes or no: is the divine spell list more useful for control purposes or the arcane? Up until this point, I've never played any sort of manifester or caster and until recently have never played with a dedicated spellcaster until our shadowcraft wizard joined the table to learn by proxy.

Well, a theurge might be a bit much if this is your first caster and manifester ever. I would consider going with a straight-classed caster or manifester to learn the ropes more easily.

Divine classes can control but it's not as easy for them at low levels - they miss out on some of the best control spells like sleep, glitterdust, grease, hypnotic pattern, stinking cloud etc. Depending on the splats you have available like BoED and SpC this can be mitigated somewhat. Druids are a little better off due to getting things like Entangle, Fog Cloud and Soften Earth & Stone, but theurging with a druid means giving up Wild Shape.

Another option is going with Psion like you planned, but for the divine class picking Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061212) - that will restore your Int synergy and give you access to more control through domain spells, if your DM is willing to let you find them at least.

[Petrocorus]

I wanted to make a cerebremancer build for battlefield control. Our campaign's party is currently at an ECL of 9 with a kender rogue, a human bard/mindbender, a druid/hathran, a human ranger/highland stalker, and a wizard/shadowcraft mage. We are permitted by our DM to use any sourcebook (excluding dragonlance) as well as web material. I originally planned to multiclass Wizard 2/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 7 Half-Nymph (Dragon #313) Kalashtar (Races of Eberron) (LA+2). The DM has given us a bonus feat for backstories and another bonus feat due to a mistake we just rolled with at the beginning of the campaign. I read a suggestion online that Ardents can be used in place of Psion, utilizing the Extended Class: Ardent article (here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) to customize mantles to access a similar variety of Powers Known as Psions.

Yes, the one ACF that can make Ardent more powerful than the Psion if applied with two much leniency.


My questions are: can I use Ardent as a suitable replacement to Psion? Have I understood the principles of early entry correctly? Is the extra BAB and HD worth using Ardent over Psion?

On Gish build, with the ACF you mentioned, yes. On pure caster build, not really.


It'd work, but you lose the INT synergy, which is a pain in the butt (Unless my memory is totally faulty and Ardents use Intelligence, but I'm pretty sure they use wisdom for Manifesting). Also, I think you could get away with Wizard 1/Ardent 3 (assuming you're using precocious apprentice).
Ardent are keyed on Wis, yes. They are some kind of Psionic Cleric, IMHO. But not as bad as the Divine Mind.


...Oh. Crap. One of the most fundamental aspects of the build and I've overlooked it. @_@ That basically makes everything else moot unless there's an arcane casting class not included on this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664) list that uses wis as their casting stat.

AFAIK, there are no arcane casting class that use Wis as primary stat.


Ardent's maximum power level is based on their manifester level, not their class level. While they're less powerful than a single-classed Psion, they're much more dip-friendly because of this.

And how does it work for other manifesters and spellcasters? When a PrC gives "+1 level" it allows to gain spell per day / power point and spells / power known.


One thing you should keep in mind is that prestige classes, including Cerebremancer and Psychic Theurge, do not grant additional mantles to the Ardent. If you use early entry tricks to get in with a level 1 Ardent, you'll only have two mantles to choose powers from, and even at the "normal" third level entry, you'll be limited to only three mantles.
This is a good point. Some DM allow to gain new mantle with PrC, however.

One of the perks of the Psychic Theurge compared to Cerebremancer is the Ur-Priest. Its fast spell progression making dual casting PrC much more usable and even powerful.

[Fax Celestis]

AFAIK, there are no arcane casting class that use Wis as primary stat.

There is one. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a)

[tyckspoon]

Yes, the one ACF that can make Ardent more powerful than the Psion if applied with two much leniency.



And how does it work for other manifesters and spellcasters? When a PrC gives "+1 level" it allows to gain spell per day / power point and spells / power known.



Dominant Ideal is generally considered the 'power' ACF for Ardents, but customizing mantles certainly doesn't hurt.

The difference with Ardents is their power selection is tied to manifester level, not class level. A Wizard 13/noncasting class 4 can only use level 7 spells where a Wizard 17 can use 9ths, regardless of their caster levels- the important thing is their Wizard class levels. An Ardent 13/whatever 4 can use Practiced Manifester to make up the difference and select from the same 8th and 9th level powers as his Ardent 17 colleague.

[Petrocorus]

Dominant Ideal is generally considered the 'power' ACF for Ardents, but customizing mantles certainly doesn't hurt.

The difference with Ardents is their power selection is tied to manifester level, not class level. A Wizard 13/noncasting class 4 can only use level 7 spells where a Wizard 17 can use 9ths, regardless of their caster levels- the important thing is their Wizard class levels. An Ardent 13/whatever 4 can use Practiced Manifester to make up the difference and select from the same 8th and 9th level powers as his Ardent 17 colleague.

Oh yeah, THAT, i know people keep bringing this thing up. First, the feat explicitly says it don't affect the powers known. And second, this is obviously a bad wording of the Ardent description. It it was really intended to allow that, i'm pretty sure there would be a specific paragraph about this ability in the Ardent description. Have you any source from WotC that says that the Ardent really work like this?

[AmberVael]

Oh yeah, THAT, i know people keep bringing this thing up. First, the feat explicitly says it don't affect the powers known. And second, this is obviously a bad wording of the Ardent description. It it was really intended to allow that, i'm pretty sure there would be a specific paragraph about this ability in the Ardent description. Have you any source from WotC that says that the Ardent really work like this?

First, no one is claiming it gives you more powers known. However, due to the wording of the Ardent's method of learning powers known, it means you can select higher level powers simply by increasing your manifester level.

And yes, there IS a specific paragraph about this ability in the Ardent description, under powers known where it describes that they can learn any power that they can pay enough points to manifest. And the source from WotC that indicates that Ardents really work like this is the fact that class is described that way, there is no other place where limits on power level is described for the Ardent, and their description of how they get high level powers is different from every other class including those in the same book. No further clarification is needed unless it doesn't work the way it is explicitly described as working.

[Petrocorus]

First, no one is claiming it gives you more powers known. However, due to the wording of the Ardent's method of learning powers known, it means you can select higher level powers simply by increasing your manifester level.

And yes, there IS a specific paragraph about this ability in the Ardent description, under powers known where it describes that they can learn any power that they can pay enough points to manifest. And the source from WotC that indicates that Ardents really work like this is the fact that class is described that way, there is no other place where limits on power level is described for the Ardent, and their description of how they get high level powers is different from every other class including those in the same book. No further clarification is needed unless it doesn't work the way it is explicitly described as working.

I understand your argument, and i know this is RAW, but i just don't understand how this kind of thing would be intentional on the part of the writer.

[AmberVael]

I understand your argument, and i know this is RAW, but i just don't understand how this kind of thing would be intentional on the part of the writer.

Okay, assume it doesn't work like that. How DO you determine the maximum power level known for the Ardent? If its bad wording, what was their intention? Is there any other possible explanation that you can derive from the description, even using the assumption of "well given a lot of the other terrible stuff in Complete Psionic, they must have been hammered when they wrote a lot of this?"

[Psyren]

More than likely it wasn't intended, but that's not a big deal imo. While you can use this to skip power levels and gain entry to PrCs with minimal Ardent levels, you also gut your PP progression to do it. And compared to the early entry tricks available to magic (Precocious Apprentice, Krau Illunian, racial SLAs), this is nothing.

[Petrocorus]

Okay, assume it doesn't work like that. How DO you determine the maximum power level known for the Ardent? If its bad wording, what was their intention? Is there any other possible explanation that you can derive from the description, even using the assumption of "well given a lot of the other terrible stuff in Complete Psionic, they must have been hammered when they wrote a lot of this?"

I always assumed it work like Psion, Wilder and any full manifester / spellcaster classes. Class level plus PrC level that explicitly raise you manifester level, power point, power known and maximum level of powers. I know i'm the one houseruling here, but that's the most logical to me. IMHO, An Ardent 6 / Slayer 4 manifests as an Ardent level 9 and his maximum level of power is 5. An Ardent 6 / Fighter 4 has a maximum level of power known of 3, Practised Manifester or not.

Remember that, by RAW, an Erudite 20 has 11 Unique Powers per level per day. Or that a Vigilante 7 has 20 3rd level spells/days.
Sometimes, you have to try to guess what was the intent, not every mistake are as obvious as the Vigilante one. So, i may be wrong, but i always assumed the Ardent should be working as the Psion for maximum level of power known.

[Aliek]

IIRC the author once said it was an oversight on his part.

However, that's pretty much the only significant ardent saving grace, and pretty much everyone remembers the class for this one 'oversight', so I would say it's fine, really. It opens the class to be more versatile, gives it a sweet niche and, overall, makes it more fun. What's not to like?

For the limited powers known I would recommend Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) to cover some basics, but it can get expensive really fast.

But you still lose the INT synergy. But if you're just looking to theurge, an Archivist might work just as good as a wizard on most cases. It's actually weaker at high-op(not tippy-op, where archivists have access to every spell ever, of course :smallbiggrin:) but overall you got your bases covered, no problems.