OOTS #969 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Also, in case you missed it, there's a News Post about the new holiday ornament and t-shirts, as well as answering some FAQ's about the book.

[endiku]

awesome comic - go Belkar - there was a time when he would have gleefully dined and bedded the gnome - he's developing a conscience?! :-)

I'm going to miss the little guy when he's gone :-(





thanks giant!

[HUMVEE Driver]

Finally, Belkar gets his due! I've been waiting for that. Roy's had his moments, now it's time for Death's Lil Helper! So now what? Time to get going to the next part of the adventure.

Previously, things have been going rather slow. And now? Get ready for more. Exactly what we've been waiting for!

[super dark33]

The tables have turned, its not Belkar who is "getting some" with a person, its someone "getting some" with Belkar!

I also love how zoomed in the penals are on them.

[Carl]

That was, i don't know, sweet, dare i say cute. Really enjoyed this, gonna be interesting to see how Belkar uses this.

[Quild]

Not easy to live with character growth for poor Belkar!

[Doug Lampert]

Definite evidence in one comic both that Belkar is less evil than previously, and yet still evil.

Is Rich TRYING to start forum arguments?

[xroads]

It’s not entirely clear in the last panel what Belkar said as a response to the merchant. Did he turn her down? I think so, but am not sure.

Great comic as usual! :smallsmile:

[Mordae]

Nope, still evil.

But maybe a little less so...

[Ur-Quan]

Awww, look at him grow.

[The Giant]

It’s not entirely clear in the last panel what Belkar said as a response to the merchant. Did he turn her down? I think so, but am not sure.

Yes, he turned her down.

[littlebum2002]

Belkar committed a decidedly Good act! Granted, it was shortly after an Evil-ish act, but still.... Hooray!

[heronbpv]

Now to wonder what Belkar will do with his new Protection Against Evil item, heh! Is it possible to avoid it's effects while still benefiting from it's protection?

Also, thanks Giant for the comic!

[Gray Mage]

Poor Belkar, if only he knew Protection from Law would work all the same. :smalltongue:

[Qaanol]

Belkar committed a decidedly Good act! Granted, it was shortly after an Evil-ish act, but still.... Hooray!

Erm, say what now? Choosing not to go on a date with someone does not have any inherent morality.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh wow, this is pretty important. On top of being hilarious this strip shows that Belkar actually cares about a complete stranger while also demonstrating that yes, Belkar is still evil. Very nice.

[The Giant]

Poor Belkar, if only he knew Protection from Law would work all the same. :smalltongue:

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

[BungleBee]

I hope it's enough.

[Roland Itiative]

Well, there go all the theories that Belkar has turned Lawful Good or something :smallbiggrin: At least until he does his next non-blatantly evil act.

[Keltest]

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

Not that Belkar would care.

[Tolvan]

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

Makes sense.

EDIT: Wow, first page!

[snowblizz]

So anyone taking wagers there's still some "Belkar is really Neutral" out there still?

[happycrow]

That was really interesting.
Not just that we have a "voice of God" answer on Belkar, but that Belkar is specifically rated as Evil, yet is still trying (whether to be fair or to be good, or both, is debatable, but given his retort, clearly trying).

[xkcd_386]

Is he going to make Undurkon swallow it? I think he's going to make Undurkon swallow it.

:belkar: "Feast on THIS!~"

[Reddish Mage]

Definite evidence in one comic both that Belkar is less evil than previously, and yet still evil.

Is Rich TRYING to start forum arguments?

Only insofar as the comic is always making controversial ethical points. This one may solve more than it creates. I already thought I was in the extreme minority in saying Belkar was no longer evil, though I still think a strict reading of the DMG implies alignment change should be easy enough Belkar could have accomplished it by acting neutral for one book.

I think it pretty clear from this comic that Belkar is going to switch alignments only through dramatic death act. Probably to good to.

Is there a case to be made that he's no longer chaotic?


Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

But how are you going to enforce it? :smalltongue:

[warmachine]

Why would Belkar wear a ring that's painful? Unless he's not the one that's going to wear it.

And I can't believe anything could knock Belkar off his stride.

[xkcd_386]

Is there a case to be made that he's no longer chaotic?
He definitely looks averted to profiting from his trickery/trust betrayal towards gnome girl, even if it doesn't harm her in any way.

I'd say he acted Lawful here.

[Themrys]

Erm, say what now? Choosing not to go on a date with someone does not have any inherent morality.

But choosing to not exploit the nice gnome woman sexually and emotionally as well as financially does. Let's be real here, the best thing that could have happened to her on that date would be to be friendzoned, which men often claim is a terrible fate. And it only goes downwards from there.

Turning down the possibility for sex is quite uncharacteristic for Belkar. As he is justifying his actions to his cat, I almost believe this is not a part of his clever plan to become neutral in order to be able to use protection from evil. (Although I wonder when he will realize that this would indeed be the clever thing to do. If he manages to become just neutral enough to not suffer from the effects of that thing, his chance of defeating Durkula will improve a lot.)

Unrelatedly, it confuses the hell out of me when women hit on Belkar. His informed attractiveness just doesn't translate into his actual appearance. It does explain why she believes the item his broken rather than coming to the more logical conclusion that Belkar is evil, though.

[M.A.D]

What the...?! But...!! who...? WHO IS THAT AND WHAT HAS HE DONE WITH THE REAL BELKAR!!!????

[ratfox]

Yay! I buy an OOTS T-shirt, and the next minute, a new chapter comes out. You guys should all buy T-shirts too!

…Is Belkar getting a conscience? :smalleek:

[Gray Mage]

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

I was going to chalk it to him really not knowing, but this makes sense. :smallsmile:

[Lheticus]

Okay, this is freaky. I was JUST thinking "didn't we get past 968" a few hours ago when we hadn't, and now we are. XD

Also, Goodgodsy'allBelkar'sgrowingaconscience.

[Nenec]

Belkar <3

Now, am I the only one who thinks he's gonna get Durkula to wear the clasp?

EDIT: yay made it to second page! Also I loved the reference to Banjo.

[Michaeler]

Does the fact that the clasp hurts mean it has bigger drawbacks than the bonus against D's vamp powers?

Also he did just kinda steal from her. I can accept that he's 10% less evil and possibly even 10% less chaotic, but he's still both as I read the strip.

[Ninja Dragon]

Belkar has been quickly turning into my favorite character in this comic.

I like how he has pretty much become the protagonist of OOTS.

[aaronwp]

Well, if Belkar's 'death' is more of a metaphorical change in outlook and alignment, we now have a great signal that it's happened. When he activates the clasp to save himself from the vamp and it doesn't burn, it's a metaphorical sign that Belkar has died and is reborn.

Or maybe he just dies for realsies *shrugs*

[Neoriceisgood]

I'm really curious where Belkar's character arc will take him. :smallredface:

[Rodin]

Does the fact that the clasp hurts mean it has bigger drawbacks than the bonus against D's vamp powers?



This is my question too. Mechanically speaking, what are the drawbacks of an Evil character wearing an item of protection against Evil, and how do they compare to the protection it offers?

If it makes him immune to the mind control, it'd probably be worth it even with severe drawbacks...he would be somewhat incapacitated, but not actively harming the Order.

[Doug Lampert]

Now to wonder what Belkar will do with his new Protection Against Evil item, heh! Is it possible to avoid it's effects while still benefiting from it's protection?
The spell Protection from Evil has no actual downsides if cast on an Evil creature in D&D 3.5 and gives the exact same benefits it would give a good creature. :)

The spell has the GOOD tag, and thus it would make Belkar register on Detect Good, which is at least amusing, but there aren't any listed downsides or bad effects other than the aura. And a creature can have conflicting auras with no problem.

OTOH AFAICT there is no "standard" item of Protection from Evil; certainly there's no cheap one with continuous effect, optimizers would have been all over such an item.

Thus any such item is house-ruled in, and when the DM house-ruled such an item into the game he may well have also house-ruled that it acts as a good aligned item (such as a holy weapon or intelligent good aligned item) and thus grants a negative level to an evil creature that uses it. If that's it then the item's effect can't be countered other than by not using it or by being immune to negative levels (arguably even immune to won't help as the penalty level explicitly can't be overcome in any way, and this could be argued to be a specific rule that overrides a general immunity).

[Dodom]

Well someone's still a SEXY shoeless god of war! :smallwink:


I have no problem imagining him wearing it himself. He was willing to die (he assumed not permanently, but it would still hurt!) to get Miko to fall, and that was a much pettier motive than his current one! Belkar's not one to fear pain when he can get a blow at his enemy out of it, he'll tough it out for some vampire stabbing action.

[Psyren]

There is no constant-effect-Pro:Evil item in D&D; rather, the Giant helpfully brewed one up for the Belkster that just so happens to roast evildoers who wear it.

Poor Belkar, there's always a catch.



I have no problem imagining him wearing it himself. He was willing to die (he assumed not permanently, but it would still hurt!) to get Miko to fall, and that was a much pettier motive than his current one! Belkar's not one to fear pain when he can get a blow at his enemy out of it, he'll tough it out for some vampire stabbing action.

Keep in mind that he didn't actually think he'd be dead for long - he was assuming at the time that the Order would simply throw him a rez like he was living in an MMO or something, not to mention the fact that the guy who he imagined doing the rezzing is now the guy he wants to kill :smalltongue:

[Sylthia]

I'm surprised Belkar hasn't has a +3 Something of Resistance until now. No wonder he's failed just about every Will save. He should really shell out enough for +5, though, unless he's blown all his gold already.

[Quild]

Also he did just kinda steal from her.

Did he really? Did Haley stole from the other gnomes when she got a 80% discount on both the price and time required for the ship repair (+coupons and free pass for brunch)?

He bought a magic item for full price and the second one for half the price. Even if the vendor didn't thought it was a broken item, she may mark this day as a good one.

Comic should have been there for black friday :p

[Psyren]

Also he did just kinda steal from her.

I'm more impressed he pulled off the Bluff check. Then again, this is the guy who managed to bluff Tarquin, so a random gnome artificer should be easy pickings.

[Velazquez]

I just love the last punchline by the Gnome.Great work by Giant in the retardation of the story, as always.

[Vladier]

I don't think that the clasp actually has a permanent Protection from Evil effect. The gnome did say to rub it, so it's probably how it's activated. Though it really shouldn't have hurt, unless there is a houserule prohibiting the Evil characters from using Protection from Evil (or other similar cases) without consequences. I certainly doubt that a mere gnomish vendor wuld have a sentient item as a part of her standart wares.

[hamishspence]

I'm wondering if this is a homebrew version of Protection from Evil. The standard version doesn't hurt Evil characters that cast it:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm

[Keltest]

Or maybe its possible the silly thing actually is malfunctioning, and Belkar doesn't know enough about the spell to tell?

[Fellow]

Perhaps it just makes him unconfortable, but doesn't cost him hitpoints? Normally when someone loses hitpoints from a magical effect, they apear wounded.

[A Tad Insane]

It's probably a house rule the giant is using because an evil character wearing something that protects from evil is weird.
Also, I can only assume it's rub activated, otherwise Belkar would be in pain in the second to last panel.

Side note: Haley got a great deal by bargaining, Belkar got one by lying.

[Seward]

I'm wondering if this is a homebrew version of Protection from Evil. The standard version doesn't hurt Evil characters that cast it:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm

I'm in the "it is limited use" camp. You rub it, it casts the spell which lasts for X minutes, and it can be activated Y times per day. Or possibly it works more like slippers of spider climb, where you get X minutes a day but can split the minutes up.

As for the pain, well, that could be a minor house-rule for the idea that if an evil critter's in a prot evil aura, anybody he attacks is going to get a +2 deflection and +2 resistance bonus from his attacks, with fluff being "it is painful". Circle of prot evil would have that effect, prot evil likely doesn't (because it is personal, not an area, so it is on you and not on your target) but I could see a GM interpreting it that way if he's not fond of folks casting "protection from myself" on themselves.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I'm just confused about one thing...

Why did it hurt him when she gave it to him, but not when he took it and continued to hold it after that?

Was it because at first, she handed it to him but it was in her possession still, which means it was "protecting" her from evil, but then when he said he'd take it, he took possession of it, so it didn't hurt him anymore?

[Ezekiel]

I'm glad that :belkar: is getting smarter and better equipped for his next encounter with Durkula. Is it just me or are the gnomes getting cuter? I'm going to miss them when the party leaves Tinkertown. :smallredface:

[Anarion]

I'd say definitely acceptable fluff to show Belkar being caught out and not using another "obvious" solution to the vampire dominance.

And now I feel like Belkar is just a big softy. Empathize with something once and suddenly it is addictive.

[Shining Wrath]

How evil do you have to be to be to talk someone down on a Protection from Good amulet?

Not very evil, evidently. Belkar felt bad afterward. And didn't even try to kiss her.

But for all we know, maybe the Belkster just has a thing for tall women.

[Firest Kathon]

Now, am I the only one who thinks he's gonna get Durkula to wear the clasp?
I think so, too. It will be interesting to see how that wreaks havoc with the HPoH controlling Durkons body...

[Keltest]

Belkar <3

Now, am I the only one who thinks he's gonna get Durkula to wear the clasp?

EDIT: yay made it to second page! Also I loved the reference to Banjo.

If you look very closely at the last panel, you can see Belkar fiddling with the clasp of his cloak. Im pretty sure he intends to use it himself, which also suggests to me that it does not do (significant) HP damage.

[Shining Wrath]

You guys are missing something: what she said when she gave Belkar the clasp in panel #4.

"Here, take this cloak clasp and rub it". Emphasis added.

It's not a continuous use Protection from Evil; it's an activate by rubbing Protection from Evil of unknown duration, and which evidently hurts an evil person to touch while active.

That's quite a bit cheaper - I'd pay a fair bit for always-on PFE just for the anti-charm and anti-possession effects. But something you have to activate and presumably has a limited time period is going to be cheaper.

[MReav]

What the...?! But...!! who...? WHO IS THAT AND WHAT HAS HE DONE WITH THE REAL BELKAR!!!????

"People don't just change who they are inside in an instant. It doesn't work like that. It takes time, so you don't know you're changing. Until one day, you just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html)

[Chronos]

Technically speaking, a Protection from Good item would also have worked. The spells block all mental control, not just that from a creature of appropriate alignment. Though I expect that Protection from Good items would also be illegal.

And I agree with Doug Lampert that the simplest explanation is that the homebrew item Belkar just bought counts as a good-aligned item and carries the same penalty for evil wielders that a holy sword does: It gives the wielder a negative level for as long as they're using it.

[CWater]

:smallbiggrin: I laughed out loud when I read this comic. This kind of self-denial is so amusing, especially when coming from Belkar. Thanks, Giant!

[SaintRidley]

Rich, your gnomes are too adorable for words. I love them and I want to pick them up and give them big, spine-crushing hugs they're so cute.

[Peelee]

Did he really? Did Haley stole from the other gnomes when she got a 80% discount on both the price and time required for the ship repair (+coupons and free pass for brunch)

Yes, he did. No, she didn't.

Persuasion is not dickery. Haley used persuasion, Belkar used dickery. Same effect, but achieved through different methods.

If it helps, lets say we both want $10 from Dave. I ask to borrow ten bucks. You mug him. We get the same result, and yet one of us is significantly more dickish.


But how are you going to enforce it? :smalltongue:

I think this is the best reply I've ever read.

[Carl]

Rich, your gnomes are too adorable for words. I love them and I want to pick them up and give them big, spine-crushing hugs they're so cute.

Am i the only one imagining the Giant giving the screen a very weird look upon reading thsi? :smallbiggrin:

[Lkctgo]

Belkar is getting a conscience? Also, thanks Giant, for debunking all hopes that he managed to claw himself to chaotic neutral. However, why do i now get the feeling that he's gonna to kill himself rather than submit to compulsion, probably in order to save Roy/Elan or something.

[Great equalizer]

Even with this, he can still be taken by surprise - he can't use the clasp while dominated (right?), and he can't maintain the effect for a lengthy period of time (1 min./level, 1st level spell, and limited uses per day).

[Themrys]

I'm just confused about one thing...

Why did it hurt him when she gave it to him, but not when he took it and continued to hold it after that?

Was it because at first, she handed it to him but it was in her possession still, which means it was "protecting" her from evil, but then when he said he'd take it, he took possession of it, so it didn't hurt him anymore?

I read it as him getting better control over himself as he knows what will happen this time, but you're right, there is no visual effect when he takes it the second time.

Maybe his taking it counted as a good act? Or petting his cat counted as good act, and he is just so neutral now? Or he felt bad about letting her believe that it is broken, and this counted as good.

Or he just coated his hand with cat hair, so that it doesn't directly touch his skin.

[Cantalooping]

The clasp is activated by rubbing it, so simply holding it doesn't do any harm to Belkar (or anything else).

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I read it as him getting better control over himself as he knows what will happen this time, but you're right, there is no visual effect when he takes it the second time.

Maybe his taking it counted as a good act? Or petting his cat counted as good act, and he is just so neutral now? Or he felt bad about letting her believe that it is broken, and this counted as good.

Or he just coated his hand with cat hair, so that it doesn't directly touch his skin.

Reading it over again, it says "rub the clasp" which I believe is how he activated it, so until he does it again he should be fine.

[Roland Itiative]

Although I wonder when he will realize that this would indeed be the clever thing to do. If he manages to become just neutral enough to not suffer from the effects of that thing, his chance of defeating Durkula will improve a lot.

Would that really work, though? "Trying to become neutral" just so he can gain something from it is not any different from his "pretending to be a team player" decision (before it started bleeding into his actual personality, and even that was not enough to actually change his alignment, as we just saw). It would not really show a real change of heart, just a forced attitude in order to reach a goal.


The spell Protection from Evil has no actual downsides if cast on an Evil creature in D&D 3.5 and gives the exact same benefits it would give a good creature. :)

The spell has the GOOD tag, and thus it would make Belkar register on Detect Good, which is at least amusing, but there aren't any listed downsides or bad effects other than the aura. And a creature can have conflicting auras with no problem.

OTOH AFAICT there is no "standard" item of Protection from Evil; certainly there's no cheap one with continuous effect, optimizers would have been all over such an item.

Thus any such item is house-ruled in, and when the DM house-ruled such an item into the game he may well have also house-ruled that it acts as a good aligned item (such as a holy weapon or intelligent good aligned item) and thus grants a negative level to an evil creature that uses it. If that's it then the item's effect can't be countered other than by not using it or by being immune to negative levels (arguably even immune to won't help as the penalty level explicitly can't be overcome in any way, and this could be argued to be a specific rule that overrides a general immunity).

Maybe Belkar is just so evil (kilonazis!) that Protection from Evil actually has a negative effect for him :smalltongue:

[Itrogash]

Unrelatedly, it confuses the hell out of me when women hit on Belkar. His informed attractiveness just doesn't translate into his actual appearance. It does explain why she believes the item his broken rather than coming to the more logical conclusion that Belkar is evil, though.
Well, it's quite inconsistent through the comic. In Azure city Belkar is with the part of the party without any Charisma, yet his Wild Empathy checks are awesome and he is able to woo a girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) in 5 seconds. My guess is his weak Charisma is a result of his bad attitude (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html), but his appeareance/magnetism is quite good for a halfling. At least storywise, I have no idea how it would work mechanically.

Does the fact that the clasp hurts mean it has bigger drawbacks than the bonus against D's vamp powers?
It gives him immunity to vampire gaze AND makes him look like Super Sayian. I cannot think of a drawback serious enough to make me consider not using it :smallbiggrin:

[Windscion]

re: Belkar not putting the moves on the shopkeeper.

Lots of bad men prefer 'bad' girls/women because they can be used and discarded. Nice girls are more likely to have expectations, and Belkar doesn't seem to be programmed for such circumstances. In other words, he is afraid to swim in unfamiliar waters.

The suggestion that he only likes taller women does not explain his defensiveness. That is either because (i) he fails to understand his motive and worries he is going soft, or (ii) he does understand this and does not want to admit that he is afraid.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Cool to see what Belkar was up to. Looks like his character continues to develop.

[Wayac]

Gonna call it right now: when Belkar dies he'll be giving the clasp to save someone else (quite possibly his cat). Bonus points if the clasp isn't hurting him in the panel before he's killed.

[137beth]

And so Belkar progresses!

[zinycor]

So anyone taking wagers there's still some "Belkar is really Neutral" out there still?

of course, he is neutral evil

[Burner28]

Hmm... Interesting strip. I love the title of it.:smallsmile:

[Anarion]

Am i the only one imagining the Giant giving the screen a very weird look upon reading thsi? :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I just picture this as the Giant's constant, fixed expression every time he browses the forums.

[Fellow]

of course, he is neutral evil
Nah, he's actually a summoned creature.

[tomandtish]

Reading this comment I sensed something. As if millions of OotS fanfic writers squeed....



Yes, he turned her down.

... and were suddenly silenced.

[MagicalMeat]

Tsundere Belkar is cute. :smallredface:

[DominusMegadeus]

Reading this comment I sensed something. As if millions of OotS fanfic writers squeed... and were suddenly silenced.

Don't be silly. Word of God, logic and common sense have never stopped fanfic writers before.

[Armydillo]

From what I see there are a couple of possibilities for why Belkar got "better":
1) Mr Scruffy actually is making Belkar a (metaphysically) better person, at least when in really close proximity. (As Belkar noticed in Comic #807 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html))
2) This is the guy who was able to bluff Tarquin so once he knew what he was expecting he could hide it better.

Personally I'm leaning towards option #1 as there is a pretty big difference between "trying to kill me"(8-9) and "All better now"(2-3). (See chart Better Pain Chart. (http://i.imgur.com/wIB8Z2x.jpg) "nice and soothing" was probably a bluff regardless) The better question is does Belkar know/suspect/think it was Mr Scruffy that took the edge off of his discomfort or does he need more trial and error?

[zimmerwald1915]

Comic should have been there for black friday :p
It's out for Cyber Monday, which, if anything, is more appropriate.

[zinycor]

Unrelatedly, it confuses the hell out of me when women hit on Belkar. His informed attractiveness just doesn't translate into his actual appearance. It does explain why she believes the item his broken rather than coming to the more logical conclusion that Belkar is evil, though.


maybe not to you, but for all we know he could be the most handsome guy ever, only with a very bad attitude. i don't remember any evidence that says that belkar has low charisma, so he could have a high charisma

[Porthos]

of course, he is neutral evil

Ah, man. You made the joke I was coming here to make myself.

Pbbbbbbbbbt. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

From what I see there are a couple of possibilities for why Belkar got "better":
1) Mr Scruffy actually is making Belkar a (metaphysically) better person, at least when in really close proximity. (As Belkar noticed in Comic #807 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html))
2) This is the guy who was able to bluff Tarquin so once he knew what he was expecting he could hide it better.

Personally I'm leaning towards option #1 as there is a pretty big difference between "trying to kill me"(8-9) and "All better now"(2-3). (See chart Better Pain Chart. (http://i.imgur.com/wIB8Z2x.jpg) "nice and soothing" was probably a bluff regardless) The better question is does Belkar know/suspect/think it was Mr Scruffy that took the edge off of his discomfort or does he need more trial and error?

Well, here's hoping this is more noticeable than the individual comments...


The clasp is activated by rubbing it, so simply holding it doesn't do any harm to Belkar (or anything else).

Reading it over again, it says "rub the clasp" which I believe is how he activated it, so until he does it again he should be fine.

I don't think that the clasp actually has a permanent Protection from Evil effect. The gnome did say to rub it, so it's probably how it's activated.

I can only assume it's rub activated, otherwise Belkar would be in pain in the second to last panel.

You guys are missing something: what she said when she gave Belkar the clasp in panel #4.

"Here, take this cloak clasp and rub it". Emphasis added.

It's not a continuous use Protection from Evil; it's an activate by rubbing Protection from Evil of unknown duration, and which evidently hurts an evil person to touch while active.

[Belsirk]

not sure if Belkar got a good protection against Durkon or a good weapon against him, but men, how I laught with the explanation :smallbiggrin:


Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.



I'm going to remember that one!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Best comic in a good long stretch, and it does a great job of making a funny and moving the plot forward!

[Keltest]

not sure if Belkar got a good protection against Durkon or a good weapon against him, but men, how I laught with the explanation :smallbiggrin:

In general, the offensive utility of any "Equip it and get hurt" item is based entirely on the ignorance of the target and their willingness to use strange magic items without identifying them. Unless Belkar's bluff ability is better than Haley's, he isn't going to be able to get the HPoH to use the clasp without at least seeing what it is.

[zinycor]

I love how Mr. Scruffy tried to help belkar while he burned, so sweet

[Finagle]

Eh, given the gnome's naiveté, she's probably a good girl and there was no way Belkar was going to bang her immediately. Only bad girls do that and she's likely not a bad girl. Her vision of "with Belkar" involves engagement rings and meeting his family. She was probably just impressed with his income level because he could easily afford the magic items, and she felt a temporary obligation towards him because he bought her "defective" clasp. Just an innocent girl doing what innocent girls do - unknowingly sending signals to the kind of man who would be horrible for her.

[allenw]

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

Plus, Protection from Law would have the same issues for Belkar as does Protection from Evil, since he's Chaotic Evil (and while he might possibly be becoming less Chaotic as well as less Evil, I see no reason to think that his current Chaos ranking (measured in what? Kiloslaads? Eris-units?) is lower than his current Evil ranking.

[zinycor]

Eh, given the gnome's naiveté, she's probably a good girl and there was no way Belkar was going to bang her immediately. Only bad girls do that and she's likely not a bad girl. Her vision of "with Belkar" involves engagement rings and meeting his family. She was probably just impressed with his income level because he could easily afford the magic items, and she felt a temporary obligation towards him because he bought her "defective" clasp. Just an innocent girl doing what innocent girls do - unknowingly sending signals to the kind of man who would be horrible for her.

I wouldn't say that only bad girls bang immediately, i believe you are making a lot of guesses here, for all we know this girl felt that Belkar was a sexy-shoeless-god-of-sex and couldn't resist to invite him out.

[Keltest]

Plus, Protection from Law would have the same issues for Belkar as does Protection from Evil, since he's Chaotic Evil (and while he might possibly be becoming less Chaotic as well as less Evil, I see no reason to think that his current Chaos ranking (measured in what? Kiloslaads? Eris-units?) is lower than his current Evil ranking.

You may want to go over that logic again. Protection from evil hurts Belkar because he is evil.

[Catbeller Mouse]

Perhaps it just makes him unconfortable, but doesn't cost him hitpoints? Normally when someone loses hitpoints from a magical effect, they apear wounded.

Smoke rose from his burned body after Belkar had reliquished the clasp. He was bent over in pain. Belkar will spend a significant number of hit points when he slides that item from a lead sheath and attaches it to his clothing. Look at his face - he's already made his plan. He'll deal with the pain when he has to, fighting Durkula. He can die from the effects. He may win the fight before he dies, may not. But in so doing, he may earn his alignment change from Chaotic Evil (hidden) to at least Neutral -- or even Chaotic Good. He's been Evil a long time, and whatever adjudges such things will require significant sacrifice, even his death, to make the switch. Key here is that he doesn't perceive his own attempt to realign. If he were craftily attempting to save his worthless soul, it wouldn't count.

Edit: I didn't notice the rub activation line, so wearing the clasp should be fine. Good plan, Belkar. Win-Lose-Win, as it were.

[Runeclaw]

I wouldn't say that only bad girls bang immediately

Yeah, that's some pretty terrible, sexist, misogynistic, double-standard crap right there.

[dps]

Belkar committed a decidedly Good act! Granted, it was shortly after an Evil-ish act, but still.... Hooray!

I'm not sure that turning down the offer of a dinner date is a Good act per se, but it's that his reason for turning her down was that he was feeling guilty about cheating her out of the clasp for half price.

[zinycor]

If he were craftily attempting to save his worthless soul, it wouldn't count.

I disagree with that, specially since the characters know that there is an afterlife, they could very well try to reform themselves, only to gain acces to the afterlife they choose. As long as they act lawful and good, ¿why wouldn't they be LG characters?

[zinycor]

Yeah, that's some pretty terrible, sexist, misogynistic, double-standard crap right there.

yeah, i think so too, didn't want to say it myself though xD

[zinycor]

Personally, i would have loved if belkar would have gone on that date but felt bad about taking advantage on the girl during it, I believe it would have been more dramatic

[Lettuce]

I never thought I would have a chance to seriously use "Belkar" and "cute" in the same sentence, but.... Belkar is so cute here, particularly in that last panel!

Also, I posit: the clasp really IS just broken, and Belkar has long-been been Good-aligned.

[Nettlekid]

I wonder if, by attaching the cloak clasp to Durkula, it'll prevent the vampire's spirit from exercising control over Durkon?

[Seto]

I'm not sure that turning down the offer of a dinner date is a Good act per se, but it's that his reason for turning her down was that he was feeling guilty about cheating her out of the clasp for half price.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but there's room for interpretation as to why he turned her down. It probably has to something to do with his misadventure with the Protection from Evil Ring : maybe seeing her being so naive and trusting and not considering the possibility that he was Evil made him ashamed of himself. Or maybe she simply came too close to discovering that he was Evil, and he didn't wanna stick around while knowing that she could discover it at any time.

[Jay R]

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

Being able to do what's illegal is what being protected from the law is for.


...AND WHAT HAS HE DONE WITH THE REAL BELKAR!!!????

Gave him a cat.


Yeah, that's some pretty terrible, sexist, misogynistic, double-standard crap right there.

Saying "Only bad girls do that " is not sexist, nor misogynistic, nor a double standard unless he also said that good and bad boys do that. He never made such a statement. You inserted the double standard by guessing about something he never said.

[zinycor]

Saying "Only bad girls do that " is not sexist, nor misogynistic, nor a double standard unless he also said that good and bad boys do that. He never made such a statement. You inserted the double standard by guessing about something he never said.

then he has a stick up his ass? i believe that would be more accurate

[Seto]

Saying "Only bad girls do that " is not sexist, nor misogynistic, nor a double standard unless he also said that good and bad boys do that. He never made such a statement. You inserted the double standard by guessing about something he never said.

Okay fine, it's not (explicitly) double-standard, but it's sex-shaming, so still a kinda clumsy thing to say.
Besides, we don't have nearly enough on that Gnome girl to know her positions about sex and what Belkar might have deduced from the inference of them, so it's baseless speculation.

[Falbrogna]

But choosing to not exploit the nice gnome woman sexually and emotionally as well as financially does.

...what the hell? How is accepting a willfully proposed date "sexually and emotionally exploiting" someone?

[zinycor]

...what the hell? How is accepting a willfully proposed date "sexually and emotionally exploiting" someone?

Well, the girl invited him because she thought that belkar was doing her a favor, but Belkar was only helping himself by lying to the gnome

[dsollen]

I think there is a non-negligible, though by no means guaranteed, chance that Belkster will manage to use the clasp himself at some point in the story, after a true alignment change which he is slowly building towards. Though I would say if that did happen he will almost certainly die shortly afterwards. Some major act of good allowing him to use the clasp as part of some noble last stand before he dies.

Of course it's also possible he uses it in either of the two ways mentioned (use it for protection against being controlled or forces the vampire to use it somehow). I'm just mentioning all the narrative possibilities.

[Shining Wrath]

Okay fine, it's not (explicitly) double-standard, but it's sex-shaming, so still a kinda clumsy thing to say.
Besides, we don't have nearly enough on that Gnome girl to know her positions about sex and what Belkar might have deduced from the inference of them, so it's baseless speculation.

Let us be kind and put it this way: That comments assumes a code of conduct for "social proper" gnomes which may or may not be true in OotS-verse. Perhaps in this universe, lunch followed by hours of sweaty passion is customary for shopkeepers who want to reward good customers.

[pendell]

Interesting how Belkar is developing as a character, even doing a decent thing or two, while still remaining evil.

Also, I note that the cape and brooch Belkar are wearing look really nice. The art is definitely upgrading over the course of the comic. I think everyone looks better.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Catbeller Mouse]

I disagree with that, specially since the characters know that there is an afterlife, they could very well try to reform themselves, only to gain acces to the afterlife they choose. As long as they act lawful and good, ¿why wouldn't they be LG characters?

Well, that there is why foreknowledge of an afterlife is problematic. If everyone knows, really knows, they will be ground up in a demon's giant Soulburger machine for all eternity if they don't toe the line of Good, why would anyone be evil? It'd be a short period of self-indulgence followed by eternal certain torture.

And philisophically, what is the intrinsic value of Good alignment if it is performed under duress of experiencing the aforementioned Soulburger grinder in the neverending future? The only truly Good, altruistic individual would be a Good hard core atheist. Everyone else would be grudgingly running before the whip... very law abiding, but not necessarily good for its own sake. Or masochistic, emotionally crippled, and/or really stupid to run with Team Evil.

Edit: changed agnostic to atheist. And agnostic might place a bet with Team Good, as the odds would be: no judgement, no consequence / judgement, consequences. Might as well be not-evil, as you either will cease to exist when you die, go to heaven, or become an ingredient in McHell's menu. Only losing bet is Team Evil.

[Keltest]

Well, that there is why foreknowledge of an afterlife is problematic. If everyone knows, really knows, they will be ground up in a demon's giant Soulburger machine for all eternity if they don't toe the line of Good, why would anyone be evil? It'd be a short period of self-indulgence followed by eternal certain torture.

And philisophically, what is the intrinsic value of Good alignment if it is performed under duress of experiencing the aforementioned Soulburger grinder in the neverending future? The only truly Good, altruistic individual would be a Good hard core atheist. Everyone else would be grudgingly running before the whip... very law abiding, but not necessarily good for its own sake. Or masochistic, emotionally crippled, and/or really stupid to run with Team Evil.

Edit: changed agnostic to atheist. And agnostic might place a bet with Team Good, as the odds would be: no judgement, no consequence / judgement, consequences. Might as well be not-evil, as you either will cease to exist when you die, go to heaven, or become an ingredient in McHell's menu. Only losing bet is Team Evil.

In most D&D cosmologies that don't actively contradict themselves, evil souls tend to get to join legions of souls in service to their gods, or enter into an "everyone out for themselves" type arena where you make your own power. They aren't deliberately designed to be punishments (if they even resemble them), its just that being trapped in a realm with nothing but evil people is naturally going to be unpleasant for the new guys until they stake their claims.

[Toper]

This comic is very cute! I like seeing Belkar's development. Gnomes have such great outfits, too.

[ti'esar]

This was weirdly adorable. And I second the people congratulating the Giant on having a comic that simultaneously establishes Belkar as still Evil and not-quite-as-Evil-as-he-used-to-be.

[Couronne]

I would hazard a guess that the reason the clasp had an effect on Belkar is so that we know what it looks like ready for when it's next used.

...via homebrewed item explanation.

[Catbeller Mouse]

In most D&D cosmologies that don't actively contradict themselves, evil souls tend to get to join legions of souls in service to their gods, or enter into an "everyone out for themselves" type arena where you make your own power. They aren't deliberately designed to be punishments (if they even resemble them), its just that being trapped in a realm with nothing but evil people is naturally going to be unpleasant for the new guys until they stake their claims.

Agreed. The difference would be, for the deceased, the quality of the company you are stuck with in the service of whatever deity claimed you. A naturally agressive a-hole would love the challenge of out-maneuvering other a-holes for dominance. Eternity of doing so would be their kind of bliss. Sort of the difference between politicians from gentler types of academia and politicians who transition from running corporations. Like riding mowers running through herb gardens - it ain't pretty, and there's no contest. Those who like to win at all costs don't mind cheating - it ain't how you play the game, it's how you win that counts.

I mentioned the negative consequences of the Soulburger Grinder awaiting the new arrived evil souls in their afterlife 'cause the Giant explicitly showed one (or something close to it, don't recall). But you are correct, that's just level one for those newbie dead Evil souls.

[Michaeler]

then he has a stick up his ass? i believe that would be more accurate

Very much so. Thanks for the correction.

Whether the date was immoral or not, it was doomed to ultimate disappointment by being based on a lie.

Personally I cannot help but wonder whether accepting this pain to save Durkon (admittedly through wanting rid of his guilt) won't be enough to actually tip Belkar over into Chaotic Neutral. This is the first opportunity I've thought might work and it has the additional benefit of Belkar being able to become aware when his alignment shifts, since it suddenly won't hurt any more.

[Ivrytwr]

Aw, Belkar. There you go giving me the feels!
Going to be sad when you clock out. Seems like a little bit of alignment change is being made here.
Gnome merchant is being a real sweetheart to Belkar.
Thanks Giant!

[t209]

So Half Gnome Half Halfling Baby anyone?

[Porthos]

:belkar:: I mean, bad enough I was....

.... scamming her out of half of the money she was due. To then go and <Insert whatever one thinks>

Huh. Belkar is devloping some self-realization. Plus he's feeling a little bit guilty for his actions.

Huh.

Nope. No character change here. None whatsoever. :smalltongue:

[Bulldog Psion]

Interesting to see Belkar get a strip to himself. Usually, he's embedded in the midst of the Order.

[Shining Wrath]

Agreed. The difference would be, for the deceased, the quality of the company you are stuck with in the service of whatever deity claimed you. A naturally agressive a-hole would love the challenge of out-maneuvering other a-holes for dominance. Eternity of doing so would be their kind of bliss. Sort of the difference between politicians from gentler types of academia and politicians who transition from running corporations. Like riding mowers running through herb gardens - it ain't pretty, and there's no contest. Those who like to win at all costs don't mind cheating - it ain't how you play the game, it's how you win that counts.

I mentioned the negative consequences of the Soulburger Grinder awaiting the new arrived evil souls in their afterlife 'cause the Giant explicitly showed one (or something close to it, don't recall). But you are correct, that's just level one for those newbie dead Evil souls.

I think each plane of the afterlife reflects both the people who are sent there (by who? who plays the role of Minos?) and also the personality of the ruling powers. You wind up in the Nine Hells, every single person there is dancing to Asmodeus' tune, especially the ones who know it and are trying their best to not perform their assigned steps. Those souls amuse him.

Chaotic evil is worse, though, because there are things there that will destroy your soul because it's Tuesday and they feel like it.

[Angelalex242]

Hmmm.

Here's an odd idea. Protection from Evil protects Belkar from himself...from his own dark tendencies. So he did something decent because the protection from evil effect knocks him down a couple kilonazis.

The Belkar that existed before wouldn't have hesitated to use and break the heart of the gnome girl.

[Keltest]

Hmmm.

Here's an odd idea. Protection from Evil protects Belkar from himself...from his own dark tendencies. So he did something decent because the protection from evil effect knocks him down a couple kilonazis.

The Belkar that existed before wouldn't have hesitated to use and break the heart of the gnome girl.

The spell was deactivated before the offer was made.

[Sylian]

Eh, given the gnome's naiveté, she's probably a good girl and there was no way Belkar was going to bang her immediately. Only bad girls do that and she's likely not a bad girl.What about Celia? Or Haley?

[Clistenes]

This was weirdly adorable. And I second the people congratulating the Giant on having a comic that simultaneously establishes Belkar as still Evil and not-quite-as-Evil-as-he-used-to-be.

Plus it provides us with an objetive tool that will tell us when Belkar actually crosses the line and stop being evil. Probably in the middle of a climatic encounter where he chooses to stand his ground and fight for the greatest Good rather than fly and save his skin, and activates the item to protect himself against mind-affecting spells.

[oppyu]

Eh, given the gnome's naiveté, she's probably a good girl and there was no way Belkar was going to bang her immediately. Only bad girls do that and she's likely not a bad girl. Her vision of "with Belkar" involves engagement rings and meeting his family. She was probably just impressed with his income level because he could easily afford the magic items, and she felt a temporary obligation towards him because he bought her "defective" clasp. Just an innocent girl doing what innocent girls do - unknowingly sending signals to the kind of man who would be horrible for her.
Woah, was not expecting madonna-whore gender politics in this thread.

So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?

[Adaon Nightwind]

This was soo cute and adorable!

It really made my day. Thanks, Giant! :)

[TheFirstStraw]

That gnome girl was adorable.

Of all the characters in the Order, I've liked watching Belkar's growth the most. It has been a subtle climb.

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, I wonder if Belkar will be offended when the item stops hurting him.

"...it's not hurting. Why isn't it hurting me? It NEEDS to be hurting me!"

[Keltest]

Woah, was not expecting madonna-whore gender politics in this thread.

So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?

That depends on whether or not he is actually taking HP damage or is just uncomfortable when the spell is active. If it inflicts some sort of actual statistical penalty on him, its quite possible that it outweighs any benefits gained. We cant say for sure until and unless the Giant clarifies what the heck is going on there.

[Giggling Ghast]

On the other hand, one could infer that Belkar just prefers taller women to females that are the same height as him.

[Killer Angel]

Woah, was not expecting madonna-whore gender politics in this thread.

So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?

well, with the vest of resistance +3, I'd say he increased his chances to survive the first round, by a 15%. :smalltongue:

[Haluesen]

Well this was a nice comic. I love the Belkar focus! More, I like that Belkar has steadily become a character I'm more interested in seeing focus on. And he's getting smarter! Geez, is he getting smarter! :smallbiggrin: He's actually preparing to fight HPoH better. And...I'm a little sad he turned down the gnome girl. That would have been interesting to see how his new characterization would handle the date. But it's also interesting to see how the new characterization shows how he handles an invite like that, so it works out.


Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

Heh I had actually never considered this before! Your comic is giving me a lot of ideas for my D&D campaign, so thank you for that. :smallsmile:


So anyone taking wagers there's still some "Belkar is really Neutral" out there still?

Yeah I'm certain plenty of people will keep insisting it. :smalltongue: This is the internet after all, people here tend to stick to their ideas and opinions like they were taped, glued, and riveted to them. :smallamused:

I know I at least am in the "Belkar is Evil" camp, and have been for a long time.


So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?

Better equipped, certainly. +3 is a fair boost to his saves for resisting that pesky vampire domination, as well as other little threats besides. And that new dagger he got earlier certainly helps with bypassing the vampire damage reduction quite a bit. Like Keltest said, we still have yet to see what the Protection from Evil thing actually does to Belkar, besides just hurt. In the spell description, it doesn't say it does anything to an evil person wielding such an enchantment, not that I could find at least. But this is more than just a D&D game with rules after all, and in real life something just hurting constantly can be debilitating enough on its own. A statistical penalty isn't even needed. It's all a matter of if Belkar can ignore the pain for his own protection.

[Shining Wrath]

Woah, was not expecting madonna-whore gender politics in this thread.

So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?

If he can activate the clasp prior to HPoH attempting to Dominate him, he'll be immune. There may be other side effects, but he won't be jumping off the ship.

[Bravo]

I'm not sure Belkar was being bad when he took the clasp for half-price. His options were:

Reveal that he is in fact Evil and the item is working fine, so he'll take it at full price. The artificer then informs the authorities that he's Evil and he dies or is imprisoned, jeopardizing the mission to save the world
Buy another at full price without testing it, which would basically arouse her suspicion that he's Evil and the aforementioned bad things happen.
Buy another at full price but test it first, essentially confirming his alignment as Evil. Bad things happen.
Buy no clasp and run the risk of being dominated at a crucial point, endangering his allies. This is really bad.
Buy no clasp but send a teammate back to the shop to buy it, avoiding suspicion. Unfortunately, this wouldn't work because she wouldn't show a new customer a clasp she believed was broken and would instead show them one of the others that she mentions she has. She would still write off the original clasp as a lemon and would take a loss on it.
Steal a clasp. This would essentially be an Evil act.
Buy the clasp at half price and then further take advantage of her naiveté by allowing her to buy him a meal. Morally questionable.
Buy the clasp at half price but take no further advantage. Kinda the best option of a bad bunch.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure Belkar was being bad when he took the clasp for half-price. His options were:

Reveal that he is in fact Evil and the item is working fine, so he'll take it at full price. The artificer then informs the authorities that he's Evil and he dies or is imprisoned, jeopardizing the mission to save the world
Buy another at full price without testing it, which would basically arouse her suspicion that he's Evil and the aforementioned bad things happen.


Being Evil on its own, might not be an "arrest-worthy factor" in most cities in the OoTS world - it certainly isn't in typical D&D worlds, going by Heroes of Horror at least.

[Juntao112]

It's probably a house rule the giant is using because an evil character wearing something that protects from evil is weird.

Actually, Protection from Evil is used by evil characters, most notably to reinforce the summoning circle needed for Planar Binding an evil creature.

[Keltest]

Actually, Protection from Evil is used by evil characters, most notably to reinforce the summoning circle needed for Planar Binding an evil creature.

And of course its significantly more likely for an evil character to attack another evil character than it is for a good one to attack another good character.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, that there is why foreknowledge of an afterlife is problematic. If everyone knows, really knows, they will be ground up in a demon's giant Soulburger machine for all eternity if they don't toe the line of Good, why would anyone be evil? It'd be a short period of self-indulgence followed by eternal certain torture.

And philisophically, what is the intrinsic value of Good alignment if it is performed under duress of experiencing the aforementioned Soulburger grinder in the neverending future? The only truly Good, altruistic individual would be a Good hard core atheist. Everyone else would be grudgingly running before the whip... very law abiding, but not necessarily good for its own sake. Or masochistic, emotionally crippled, and/or really stupid to run with Team Evil.

Edit: changed agnostic to atheist. And agnostic might place a bet with Team Good, as the odds would be: no judgement, no consequence / judgement, consequences. Might as well be not-evil, as you either will cease to exist when you die, go to heaven, or become an ingredient in McHell's menu. Only losing bet is Team Evil.
Well, for people who are attempting godhood or immortality, being Evil will be worth it. For others, it comes down to the question of why anyone who believes in multiple possibilities for an afterlife would do Evil things.

Woah, was not expecting madonna-whore gender politics in this thread.

So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?
He is better equipped. I don't think he has what he needs to win in D&D terms, but we'll see what happens.

[Angelalex242]

Well, it is notable that Belkar is not known for his intelligence. Even if Belkar took a tour of the Abyss, he may not change his ways, as he believes it'll never happen to him. Or that he'll just kill all the demons and take over, much like Black Mage over in 8 bit theatre.

[Themrys]

...what the hell? How is accepting a willfully proposed date "sexually and emotionally exploiting" someone?

We are not talking about Elan here, we are talking about Belkar. I don't think the assumption that he would not take neither her feelings nor her sexual pleasure into consideration is too far-fetched. Remember, he didn't care about, who was it, Jenny the Bard? enough to make her a sandwich when he made one for himself. He basically treated her like a commodity.

Or at least, it wouldn't have been far-fetched before he developed something resembling a conscience.

@oppyu: I do hope the Giant soon manages to offend the sensibilities of people with a madonna-whore worldview so thouroughly that this doesn't happen anymore.

[Edhelras]

Are we seeing here evidence that Belkar is getting tired of and maladjusted to his so-far Evil alignment? That he's experiencing the downsides of being an evil sociopath? Has Mr. Scruffy had this influence on him (as pet animals often have), socializing him and making him a more agreeable person?

[Emperordaniel]

Heh, I just realized Belkar was talking about Banjo and Elan in the third panel there. :smallbiggrin:

[Mousedigits]

Hrrm, interesting. From what I see, there are 3 things Belkar is planning to do with the clasp:

1) Put it on, further raising his resistance from Durkula (I dunno, does protection from evil work on evil characters?)

2) Give it to Roy, possibly helping him see that Durkula is evil. (Least likely, in my opinion)

3)Give it to Durkula, forcibly or not. This, I think, is the most likely. Not only will this hurt Durkula, look at this text from the Protection from Evil Spell:


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Emphasis mine.
I wonder if this would prevent HPoH from controlling Durkon, and if so, would Durkon regain control? Also, if he does, would he still be a Vampire? If he is still a Vampire, is he evil?

Questions, questions...

[Ghost Nappa]

I feel like it would be smarter for Belkar to "give" the clasp to someone else actually. Someone seems like they've been dominated? Rub the clasp and shock himself, but free up someone from domination (say a Gnome Cleric that knows too much), and get the truth.

[Themrys]

Saying "Only bad girls do that " is not sexist, nor misogynistic, nor a double standard unless he also said that good and bad boys do that. He never made such a statement. You inserted the double standard by guessing about something he never said.

Come on. It is a reasonable assumption. in 99% of cases, phrases like this are misogynistic.

Someone who believes that naiveté = innocence = not easily coerced into sex/doesn't want to have sex on first date and still believes that such logic applies in OOTS must be sexist, as Elan clearly proves that it does not apply for men. If I have to remind you, Elan was ready to have sex with a woman who kidnapped him!

(Besides, it is bull**** anyway. Someone as naive as the gnome girl would be exactly the kind of person to believe that Belkar has a contraception spell on his private parts, that he wants to marry her, that she lead him on and is an evil tease if she hasn't sex with him immediately, or whatever **** he would tell her to get into her pants. The women least likely to hop into bed with someone like Belkar are women who are clever enough to realize that he's bad news.)

[LuisDantas]

The spell was deactivated before the offer was made.

Maybe there was a residual effect, or at least a shell shock?

[Angelalex242]

In this comic, at least, sex has nothing to do with the Afterlife. Consider Roy's mom, for starters.

"Do you remember to where you were flinging of my codpiece?"

And that's in the LAWFUL GOOD plane...

Though Roy's Archon does note that petitioners of Celestia seem to prefer some guilt in their sex. Perhaps it's a developed kink.

Also notable the Oracle Kobold tries to slutshame Roy's mom while Roy's a ghost.

Also notable that the most ethical females in the strip (Celia and Haley) have no problem whatever ravaging Roy and Elan, respectively, when the chance comes up.

...So really, only the Oracle Kobold has ever engaged in slutshaming in this comicverse. And since the Oracle's kind of a jackass to begin with, it doesn't really count.

[sabremeister]

In general, the offensive utility of any "Equip it and get hurt" item is based entirely on the ignorance of the target and their willingness to use strange magic items without identifying them. Unless Belkar's bluff ability is better than Haley's, he isn't going to be able to get the HPoH to use the clasp without at least seeing what it is.

Belkar's Bluff doesn't need to be better than Haley's, it just needs to be better than Durkula's. If you think about it, Belkar probably has a relatively high CHA (maybe 12 or 14). He's got a size penalty to Intimidate and run speed, so he's going to need some mechanism to get his targets to stand still long enough that he can catch up to them when they're fleeing the SSGoW and kill them, thus satisfying his bloodlust ("Hey Hobgoblin! Stop there, or I'll kill you even more painfully than the last guy when I catch you!"). I don't think Bluff would do anything, and Belkar wouldn't consider Diplomacy to be a suitable option for a Halfling of his tendencies, so that leaves Intimidate. Intimidate is most probably the skill in which Belkar has most ranks, and he does enjoy using it (on wait staff, Kobolds, lawyers, Gnome clerics, etc).

[Keltest]

Belkar's Bluff doesn't need to be better than Haley's, it just needs to be better than Durkula's. If you think about it, Belkar probably has a relatively high CHA (maybe 12 or 14). He's got a size penalty to Intimidate and run speed, so he's going to need some mechanism to get his targets to stand still long enough that he can catch up to them when they're fleeing the SSGoW and kill them, thus satisfying his bloodlust ("Hey Hobgoblin! Stop there, or I'll kill you even more painfully than the last guy when I catch you!"). I don't think Bluff would do anything, and Belkar wouldn't consider Diplomacy to be a suitable option for a Halfling of his tendencies, so that leaves Intimidate. Intimidate is most probably the skill in which Belkar has most ranks, and he does enjoy using it (on wait staff, Kobolds, lawyers, Gnome clerics, etc).

I have no idea where youre going with that. My point was that Belkar is not going to be able to get the HPoH to just equip and use a totally unknown magic item. He would need to lie (ie bluff) about what it does in order for the HPoH to be interested, and the HPoH is not that easy to fool.

[Itrogash]

I'm not sure Belkar was being bad when he took the clasp for half-price. His options were:

Reveal that he is in fact Evil and the item is working fine, so he'll take it at full price. The artificer then informs the authorities that he's Evil and he dies or is imprisoned, jeopardizing the mission to save the world
Buy another at full price without testing it, which would basically arouse her suspicion that he's Evil and the aforementioned bad things happen.
Buy another at full price but test it first, essentially confirming his alignment as Evil. Bad things happen.
Buy no clasp and run the risk of being dominated at a crucial point, endangering his allies. This is really bad.
Buy no clasp but send a teammate back to the shop to buy it, avoiding suspicion. Unfortunately, this wouldn't work because she wouldn't show a new customer a clasp she believed was broken and would instead show them one of the others that she mentions she has. She would still write off the original clasp as a lemon and would take a loss on it.
Steal a clasp. This would essentially be an Evil act.
Buy the clasp at half price and then further take advantage of her naiveté by allowing her to buy him a meal. Morally questionable.
Buy the clasp at half price but take no further advantage. Kinda the best option of a bad bunch.


You forgot about
9. Stab the gnome, and maybe a few other gnomes on the way out, so that there is at least one less gnome for the Order to fight.

[stsasser]

So Half Gnome Half Halfling Baby anyone?

He wanted to rub that gnome but was afraid she would ask him to wear protection?

[elros]

Why I liked today's update:
1) it shows Belkar's growth. I mean, come on, he turned down a free meal! That is even more growth than the fact that he didn't kill her and steal her stuff.
2) it proves Belkar is still evil. I really like how the Giant demonstrates alignment- Belkar may have grown, but he is still evil,
3) it sets the groundwork for Belkar to resist Durkula's dominate power.

All in all, enjoyable.

[Jay R]

Personally I cannot help but wonder whether accepting this pain to save Durkon (admittedly through wanting rid of his guilt) won't be enough to actually tip Belkar over into Chaotic Neutral. This is the first opportunity I've thought might work and it has the additional benefit of Belkar being able to become aware when his alignment shifts, since it suddenly won't hurt any more.

I assume that the halfling wants it for tactical purposes, to protect himself from Domination, and is willing to accept the side effects to get it, and the Giant wants it for literary purposes, to show when Belkar officially crosses the line from Evil into Neutral.


On the other hand, one could infer that Belkar just prefers taller women to females that are the same height as him.
Either way, the reaction is neither hate nor lust, so Belkar has explicitly outgrown Vaarsuvius's theory.

[Gnoman]

...So really, only the Oracle Kobold has ever engaged in slutshaming in this comicverse. And since the Oracle's kind of a jackass to begin with, it doesn't really count.

Haley was pretty bad about it in earlier strips as well.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


Belkar committed a decidedly Good act! Granted, it was shortly after an Evil-ish act, but still.... Hooray!
Choosing to not commit an Evil act is not in itself a Good act.


Erm, say what now? Choosing not to go on a date with someone does not have any inherent morality.

Taking advantage of the adorable Gnome's Gnaiveté would have been wrong because of the deception involved, and choosing to not do the wrong thing does show a bit of a conscience. Again, though, choosing to not commit an Evil act is not in itself a Good act.


Eh, given the gnome's naiveté, she's probably a good girl and there was no way Belkar was going to bang her immediately. Only bad girls do that and she's likely not a bad girl. Her vision of "with Belkar" involves engagement rings and meeting his family. She was probably just impressed with his income level because he could easily afford the magic items, and she felt a temporary obligation towards him because he bought her "defective" clasp. Just an innocent girl doing what innocent girls do - unknowingly sending signals to the kind of man who would be horrible for her.

I, um... wow. I can't state strongly enough that I feel this statement is wrong. Enjoying sex, even casual sex, even spontaneous casual lunch-date sex, does not make a person bad. I'm sure you didn't mean to sound so condemning, but I feel it's important to consider the language we use, lest we perpetuate the notion that a girl's worth is attached to her sexual choices.


*

[Tragak]

Haley was pretty bad about it in earlier strips as well. But she has also quite specifically outgrown that.

[dtilque]

Hmmm.

Here's an odd idea. Protection from Evil protects Belkar from himself...from his own dark tendencies.

You're right, that is odd. Because what Protection from Evil does is specified in the spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) and that doesn't mention anything about protecting one from one's own evil tendencies.



3)Give it to Durkula, forcibly or not. This, I think, is the most likely. Not only will this hurt Durkula, look at this text from the Protection from Evil Spell:



Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

I wonder if this would prevent HPoH from controlling Durkon, and if so, would Durkon regain control?

I'd be really surprised if it worked that way. For one thing, it takes more than just wearing it to have an effect; it seems to require rubbing it was well. Assuming that's the case and that Belkar could get him to rub it, I'd expect the effect to apply to the being who rubbed it, which in this case would be Durkula, not Durkon.


Someone up above wondered why Belkar isn't going for a Vest of Resistance +5, instead of +3. Most likely is that this is the highest level vest in the shop. There's a strong implication in this strip that the goods are all made by the shop keeper/artificer. And there's restrictions on how powerful such a magic item can be made. That is, the caster/artificer level must be at least 3 times the item's bonus. So it's likely she's 9th, 10th or 11th level and can't make any stronger item.

[TurtlesAWD]

D'aaawwww whose a cute widdle murderer? Belkar is! Yes he is!

I'm just about hoping he finds a loophole in his prophecy, just to see if this whole character development thing can take him that far.

[Ron Miel]

{scrubbed}

[DaggerPen]

Laughed so, so hard at this. Glad I'm alone in my room. Oh, my sides.

Yup, Belkar is definitely still evil. But even he's growing...

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

So did Belkar accept?

[Aerysil]

Aww, Belkar....

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Cikomyr]

Poor Belkar, if only he knew Protection from Law would work all the same. :smalltongue:

He already got lawyer, no?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

His informed attractiveness just doesn't translate into his actual appearance

Well, it's quite inconsistent through the comic. In Azure city Belkar is with the part of the party without any Charisma, yet his Wild Empathy checks are awesome and he is able to woo a girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) in 5 seconds. My guess is his weak Charisma is a result of his bad attitude (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html), but his appeareance/magnetism is quite good for a halfling. At least storywise, I have no idea how it would work mechanically.
I have an alternate theory. The party's pretty high level, right? And rangers have lots of skill points. Maybe besides Cooking, Belkar has also been levelling his charisma based skills. He wouldn't need much of a natural charisma at all to be far better at them than the average person by his level. Then, since his charisma is based on learned skills, it would only work when he deliberately employs it-- such as when wooing that woman you linked to or, say, trying to charm a shop-keeper so they give him an item for cheap and don't think he's evil. It just worked better than he expected in the second case.
Same for Wild Empathy, really, since that also works on level.

[Ron Miel]

Thanks Giant!

So did Belkar accept?

No.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18472962&postcount=11

[Seward]

I have an alternate theory. The party's pretty high level, right? And rangers have lots of skill points. .


Yeah. Even with a 6 charisma, Belkar at level 15 could be rocking a +16 intimidate (+12 vs medium sized) and +8 diplomacy with cross-class skill ranks. That's the same as an 18 charisma person at first level with maxed diplomacy. Good enough to get the occasional date, especially if he rolls well. Or impress a 3rd level bard or a 10thish level wizard/cleric/whatever the crafter is. With 6 Cha, his wild empathy is also still +13.

[Weimann]

Erm, say what now? Choosing not to go on a date with someone does not have any inherent morality.True, but the circumstances around it can produce situations where it might be considered more morally correct to do so. For example, if you had just pretended not to be affected by a Protection for Evil spell, thereby helping in making the clerk consider you a safe to bet on and thus possibly making her more daring in asking you out. In a world where there are fixed alignments, that kind of thing could be relevant information.

Strictly speaking, it probably wouldn't have been wrong for him to accept as long as he didn't actually harm her, but it's only pretty damn recently that he's even started to consider these things. Or hell, he might even actually feel it.

[Elkad]

Woah, was not expecting madonna-whore gender politics in this thread.

So D&D people, is Belkar any better equipped to fight not-Durkon now?

Yup. Belkar's main problem vs Durkula is getting Dominated instantly (and jumping off the airship, etc).
Protection from Evil(or any other alignment) stops all mental control effects.
Even if it did a fair amount of fire damage, or caused him to lose a level while wearing it, he'd still be in better shape than being under Durkula's complete control.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I actually did not get the implications.

EDIT: Yay for not-murdering someone!

[internisus]

It's worth noting that Belkar didn't offer to take the "defective" clasp off the shopkeeper's hands at a discount in order to take advantage of her and get a cheaper price. His motivation was to hide that he is evil; if she had gone to get another clasp, the effect would have been the same, and it's unlikely that she would have continued to believe that it was because multiple clasps were broken. And Belkar couldn't very well say "I'll take the broken one anyway" without proposing the discount to make it believable.

[happycrow]

It's worth noting that Belkar didn't offer to take the "defective" clasp off the shopkeeper's hands at a discount in order to take advantage of her and get a cheaper price. His motivation was to hide that he is evil; if she had gone to get another clasp, the effect would have been the same, and it's unlikely that she would have continued to believe that it was because multiple clasps were broken. And Belkar couldn't very well say "I'll take the broken one anyway" without proposing the discount to make it believable.

::clap clap clap::

The gnome's reaction to being around an evil person is clearly the dawning of incipient horror, and Belkar realizes this to bluff like hell, with following-on actions. So this is a thing he does, and he's unhappy about it - enough to turn down his second-favorite cuisine for free. For those deeply mired in "who's politically-correct enough," the point is that Belkar's actually trying to do, if not the right thing, less of the wrong thing -- including not to cadge free lunches off somebody he's just inadvertently wound up bilking out of a few grand. Whether or not he would further manipulate the gnome, who is offering him lunch out of misplaced gratitude, so that he gets laid -- and what you, me, or that guy down the street doing pushups think about that and/or the theoretical character of a largely-undefined gnome npc in a society about whose mores we know squat -- isn't germane.

His development of a sufficiently rudimentary conscience to not feel good about the situation and to at least try not to take full advantage, is. Doesn't make him good. But it makes him wayyyy more morally-aware than Belkar, ca. Strip 489.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

Or this one, for that matter.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html


//edited for really horrid grammar. Run-ons kept because I'm awful that way.

[brian 333]

Where does it say that Protection From Evil imposes level loss or HP damage? It causes discomfort at best, and provides immunity from mental control.

Putting it on Durkula wouldn't help, because it has no power to break existing enchantments.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

i don't see how a ring of constant effect Protection from Evil would be all that expensive in terms of a magic item.

Custom item, continuous effect cost is Spell Level * Caster Level * 2k. Doubled because the spell has a duration of minutes/lvl. So, 1st level spell, 1st level caster, base price is only 4k. Considering the vest of Protection +3 rings in at 9k, it is actually extremely reasonably priced for the effect he gets of suppressing any charm effect. Of course, a dispel magic targeting the ring will suppress the rings effects...

I suppose Rich is going with the idea that since a Holy enchanted weapon bestows a negative level on evil wielders, the same thing happens with this broach.

[stsasser]

Yup. Belkar's main problem vs Durkula is getting Dominated instantly (and jumping off the airship, etc).
Protection from Evil(or any other alignment) stops all mental control effects.
Even if it did a fair amount of fire damage, or caused him to lose a level while wearing it, he'd still be in better shape than being under Durkula's complete control.

Did the Vest of Resistance +3 reduce the damage from the clasp?

[Death Knight of]

damnit! I wanted him to get down and dirty with that gnome...

but seriously, maybe belkar can convince Haley to get Durkula to wear it for him in front of everyone and then get V to identify the item.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

damnit! I wanted him to get down and dirty with that gnome...

but seriously, maybe belkar can convince Haley to get Durkula to wear it for him in front of everyone and then get V to identify the item.

Identifying him as Evil won't help much; Roy is willing to put up with Belkar in order to save the world, he'll put up with another Evil teammate.

[Perficio]

Is he going to make Undurkon swallow it? I think he's going to make Undurkon swallow it.

:belkar: "Feast on THIS!~"

Yessss. I like this image.

[Death Knight of]

Yeah, but belkar is more of a jerky blood-thirsty murderer while durkon is in service to the "dishonourable death" goddess. What belkar wants is to figure out whats wrong with durkon. If durkon's new alignment is exposed, the rest of the party is going to order him to spill.

[UristMcRandom]

Aw, was really hoping in the next-to-last panel that he'd say yes. Kinda figured a steady or semi-steady love interest would fit his character growth. Of course, the choosing-not-to-sexually-exploit-her school of thought has a valid point.

[Death Knight of]

Just to keep things straight, I'm with the belkster here and I know they know of Durkon's new alignment, but they Don't know his ulterior motives or new god.

[Terrador]

Belkar's long been established as not giving much of a muskrat's hindquarters about pain when there's murdering to do--in particular, he can egg on Miko while very near death, and he's been truckin' on through while injured for pretty much ever. It's absolutely no stretch to say he'd stomach the pain of the Protection from Evil clasp if it means a chance to bring down HPoH.

[nonamearisto]

Wow, Gnome females are easy to get, aren't they? Unless she had something else in mind by that. Like, really just meant food and nothing more. It might have been just this one gnome female, but there's no reason to think she's unusual for her species. Unless she's not too bright by their standards. Doesn't take a genius to know why he was really hurt by the "anti-evil field."

[dancrilis]

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Emphasis mine.




Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

Emphasis mine.

[BriarHobbit]

What a great episode. The title makes complete sense once you reach the punchline.

[tcrudisi]

I noticed a couple of people were wondering what would happen if the clasp was given to Durkon. Valid point ... but I actually don't think that Durkon will be the one to use it after Belkar. I think it will be V. (S)He'll use it to get out of the possession from the demons/devils.

[Lurkmoar]

Wow. If I didn't know any better I'd say that Belkar has actually stopped being evil. Well, at least Obviously Evil.

[Shatteredtower]

It amazes me that the Giant never runs out of new and interesting ways to hurt Belkar, even as he gets more subtle about it. Good to see this gnome merchant fare better than the last one Belkar encountered. Good to see this woman treated better than the last one to show interest in Belkar.

It's a shame that all of these little ways of becoming better might just make things worse for Belkar personally in the long run.

[Quild]

Yes, he did. No, she didn't.

Persuasion is not dickery. Haley used persuasion, Belkar used dickery. Same effect, but achieved through different methods.

If it helps, lets say we both want $10 from Dave. I ask to borrow ten bucks. You mug him. We get the same result, and yet one of us is significantly more dickish.

I agree with your example but the situation may not be the same here.

When Haley got the 80% discount, the kind of persuasion she used is... well, not magic. It defies the natural order.
Did the gnomes put a major cut to the high profits they would have done or are they now losing money helping the order? If Haley is aware of which one is the good one, it may make a difference.

If Haley just made a persuasion roll and is done with it, that's not fair toward the gnomes. Certainly less fair than what Belkar did.
Because I'm quite sure that the gnomes speaking with Haley really had less free will in that matter than the one speaking with Belkar. For what we know, she could have refused if she wasn't interested in Belkar.
It's like when that girl asks 10 bucks to Dave and Dave thinks that it could give him an edge to give her.

[Great equalizer]

Mostly a question on rules here.
Considering that the clasp "costs thousands to make", and someone calculated that a continuous effect one would cost 4000 GP, we can probably say it's continuous (turned on and off at will) rather than limited uses per day - it would cost much less then, right?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Just to keep things straight, I'm with the belkster here and I know they know of Durkon's new alignment, but they Don't know his ulterior motives or new god.

The clasp would, at best, reveal only his alignment (which many of them already know, given that he summons demons and channels negative energy). It would not tell them that he is a worshipper of Hel, and it certainly wouldn't reveal his goals and intentions.

[Great equalizer]

The clasp would, at best, reveal only his alignment (which many of them already know, given that he summons demons and channels negative energy). It would not tell them that he is a worshipper of Hel, and it certainly wouldn't reveal his goals and intentions.

It may let "real" Durkon take over for the duration of the spell, so he can tell others what's going on with him. Emphasis on "may" - since OOTS vampirism is homebrew, it's unclear whether it counts as "mental control" for PfE.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It may let "real" Durkon take over for the duration of the spell, so he can tell others what's going on with him. Emphasis on "may" - since OOTS vampirism is homebrew, it's unclear whether it counts as "mental control" for PfE.


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.
As we can see here, it would be unable to expel the High Priest of Hel, and since what is causing Durkon to be unable to control himself is the fact that the High Priest of Hel has him captured, I think that at best the High Priest of Hel would be unable to exercises control, but Durkon would be unable to regain it, at worst he would be unaffected.

[St Fan]

Okay, now we know without a hint of a doubt how the comic will end: with the Snarl getting free and the world breaking apart.

Come on, Belkar is growing a CONSCIENCE! It's the end of the world!

[Bravo]

Being Evil on its own, might not be an "arrest-worthy factor" in most cities in the OoTS world - it certainly isn't in typical D&D worlds, going by Heroes of Horror at least.

You'd think so, but then again The Giant has made a point of demonstrating how Lawful Stupid some civilizations can be when it comes to people that are classified as "Evil". Would Redcloak be as hellbent on revenge if the Sapphire Guard hadn't embarked on near-genocide, simply because "Goblins are Evil"?

[Themrys]

Wow, Gnome females are easy to get, aren't they? Unless she had something else in mind by that. Like, really just meant food and nothing more. It might have been just this one gnome female, but there's no reason to think she's unusual for her species. Unless she's not too bright by their standards. Doesn't take a genius to know why he was really hurt by the "anti-evil field."

Men like you deserve to only meet women who are so "hard to get" that you will never "get" one.

[xkcd_386]

Men like you deserve to only meet women who are so "hard to get" that you will never "get" one.

:elan: "I don't get it!"

[Killer Angel]

I feel like it would be smarter for Belkar to "give" the clasp to someone else actually. Someone seems like they've been dominated?.

I wonder what could happen if Belkar "gives" the clasp to Durkula...

[Cerlis]

But choosing to not exploit the nice gnome woman sexually and emotionally as well as financially does. Let's be real here, the best thing that could have happened to her on that date would be to be friendzoned, which men often claim is a terrible fate. And it only goes downwards from there.

Turning down the possibility for sex is quite uncharacteristic for Belkar. As he is justifying his actions to his cat, I almost believe this is not a part of his clever plan to become neutral in order to be able to use protection from evil. (Although I wonder when he will realize that this would indeed be the clever thing to do. If he manages to become just neutral enough to not suffer from the effects of that thing, his chance of defeating Durkula will improve a lot.)

Unrelatedly, it confuses the hell out of me when women hit on Belkar. His informed attractiveness just doesn't translate into his actual appearance. It does explain why she believes the item his broken rather than coming to the more logical conclusion that Belkar is evil, though.

well i think she was just asking him to supper. Quite often plotonic, but i think the confusion is that most/many people assume that to be "something to do" as an excuse to hang out with the person. I'm sure she wouldnt mind having a good first date, but didnt see like she was expecting anything in that regard.

I think its more the "lying about not being evil, ruining her stuff, scamming her, and then not taking her up on gratitude that wouldnt be needed if not for the lying" thing.

[Themrys]

:elan: "I don't get it!"

:haley: Don't worry, Elan sweetie, it doesn't concern you. You may not get it, but we'll always get some .

@Cerlis: I would also think that she just offered to pay his dinner, but I have spent enough time around other people to at least suspect they wouild consider this a date.
Any way, he decided to not accept a reward for his deception, so this is some character development.

[stench]

oh belkar, you lady-killer....
..both literally and figuratively, i suppose

[Quild]

Wait... What's wrong if the gnome girl wants to date the handsome nice halfling stranger for a one-night stand?

[Themrys]

Wait... What's wrong if the gnome girl wants to date the handsome nice halfling stranger for a one-night stand?

What is wrong? (Assuming that she wants it to be a date, indeed) Well, she wants to date a handsome man, and she decided to invite him for dinner.

A woman who judges men's attractiveness by their looks and not their self-perceived worth in terms of money or "niceness"? Shocking! A woman who makes her own decisions on whom to spend her time with instead of waiting for a man to make that decision for her? Shocking! A woman who has her own money and is able to pay for dinner? The horror!

One would have thought they'd gotten used to it, after Hilgya decided to have sex with Durkon, but apparently not. I guess the Giant needs to be a bit more proactive in offending this group's sensibilities.

[Brumagris]

Am I the only one that thinks that, although Belkar wants to get Durkon back, it is not for the good of Durkon or the party but actually more for telling Roy "I told you so, he did take me as a soda because he doesn´t give a damn about us"?

The stripe is great and offers a myriad of possibilities in the future, as we can all see. The parallelism from the gnome out of Azure city and the sweet lady we encountered in strip 969 is remarkable.

We´ll see what happens next... :)

[Vahir]

What is wrong? (Assuming that she wants it to be a date, indeed) Well, she wants to date a handsome man, and she decided to invite him for dinner.

A woman who judges men's attractiveness by their looks and not their self-perceived worth in terms of money or "niceness"? Shocking! A woman who makes her own decisions on whom to spend her time with instead of waiting for a man to make that decision for her? Shocking! A woman who has her own money and is able to pay for dinner? The horror!

One would have thought they'd gotten used to it, after Hilgya decided to have sex with Durkon, but apparently not. I guess the Giant needs to be a bit more proactive in offending this group's sensibilities.

If you're going to make that argument, in this case it seems that the Giant agrees with those people, because the voluntarily offered date is considered immoral for Belkar to accept.

Why it's immoral, though, I haven't the faintest clue. Because he abused her trust to get a better deal? Haley does that constantly throughout the strips, and the morality of it is never brought up, really. Are we supposed to think, "Go Haley" when she does it, but "Boo Belkar" when he does? Why?

[Themrys]

If you're going to make that argument, in this case it seems that the Giant agrees with those people, because the voluntarily offered date is considered immoral for Belkar to accept.

Why it's immoral, though, I haven't the faintest clue. Because he abused her trust to get a better deal? Haley does that constantly throughout the strips, and the morality of it is never brought up, really. Are we supposed to think, "Go Haley" when she does it, but "Boo Belkar" when he does? Why?

It is not about the date, it is about the fact that she offered to pay for his dinner, falsely believing that he is a "sweetheart", not an evil halfling who just tricked her into believing that her product is broken when it actually functions quite good.

Where does Haley lie to someone about the quality of the product they sell? I can't remember her doing that. (It might be part of her persuasion tactic, but we aren't shown that) I also can't remember her accepting a date with someone who believes her to be better than she actually is. Even Elan knows that she's a rogue, I'm pretty sure.



Am I the only one that thinks that, although Belkar wants to get Durkon back, it is not for the good of Durkon or the party but actually more for telling Roy "I told you so, he did take me as a soda because he doesn´t give a damn about us"?


I think it is most about his own safety as member of a group that includes an evil vampire, and revenge on Not-Durkon than about telling Roy "I told you so". Belkar is used to being the only evil group member, and thus safe from being killed in his sleep, and he doesn't like the threat Durkula poses to his safety. Also, Durkula made him look like an idiot, which he will want revenge for.

[davidbofinger]

Would Redcloak be as hellbent on revenge if the Sapphire Guard hadn't embarked on near-genocide, simply because "Goblins are Evil"?

Not just because they were evil, but also because one among them (Redcloak, though they didn't known that at the time) threatened "the very foundations of creation itself".

Prophecy leads to causal loops. The goblins think they were attacked for no reason, so one strikes back by actions that may release the snarl. The Sapphire Guard know the goblins may release the snarl, so they attack pre-emptively. Both sides feel they are in the right. (Though they might have anyway, for other reasons.)

The same thing happens in the Terminator franchise. From the human point of view SkyNet attacked them and they fought back. From SkyNet's point of view it was barely awake when humans tried to kill it, so it fought back.

[Gift Jeraff]

Men like you deserve to only meet women who are so "hard to get" that you will never "get" one.

How do you know that poster is both a man and attracted to women?

[Peelee]

I agree with your example but the situation may not be the same here.

When Haley got the 80% discount, the kind of persuasion she used is... well, not magic. It defies the natural order.

Did the gnomes put a major cut to the high profits they would have done or are they now losing money helping the order? If Haley is aware of which one is the good one, it may make a difference.

If Haley just made a persuasion roll and is done with it, that's not fair toward the gnomes. Certainly less fair than what Belkar did.
Because I'm quite sure that the gnomes speaking with Haley really had less free will in that matter than the one speaking with Belkar. For what we know, she could have refused if she wasn't interested in Belkar.
It's like when that girl asks 10 bucks to Dave and Dave thinks that it could give him an edge to give her.

A.) What does it matter if her persuasion wasn't magic? Is non-magical persuasion inherently not-Good?

2.) The gnomes are definitely taking a loss helping the Order. They are gambling on increased revenue stemming from the advertising in the upcoming book to make up for this lost revenue and bolster later sales. Or at least, that's the implication I get from the first thing Haley says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html).

c.) Diplomacy does not reduce free will; Haley's gnome may have been significantly more inclined to agree, but the nature of diplomacy means the person in question believes it is in their best interest to agree - just like how Belkar's gnome believed it was in her best interest to sell the item at half price instead of just scuttling it and taking a total loss.

4.) What does fairness have to do with it? If Dave believes he has a shot at a girl for giving ten bucks, well, that's Dave's problem. Even if she leads him to believe that, he is in full control of his faculties and is able to weigh the information presented vs. likelihood of success, at the very least.

[Doug Lampert]

I agree with your example but the situation may not be the same here.

When Haley got the 80% discount, the kind of persuasion she used is... well, not magic. It defies the natural order.
Evidence?

Because Haley explains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) how she got the deal and no unreasonable persuasion is mentioned, unless you consider breaking the fourth wall unnatural in TOotS?

There are some readers with an irrational conviction that Haley was using a diplomacy check to do something unreasonable there, but there's no evidence for this belief in the comic.

[Peelee]

Evidence?

Because Haley explains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) how she got the deal and no unreasonable persuasion is mentioned, unless you consider breaking the fourth wall unnatural in TOotS?

There are some readers with an irrational conviction that Haley was using a diplomacy check to do something unreasonable there, but there's no evidence for this belief in the comic.

It's more of a reference to Roy's last statement one strip earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html).

I am of the belief that playing on the fourth wall is against the natural order in a given story (even when it works well), and also that she did make a diplomacy check. In games (and presumably stories like this one), diplomacy checks are explained by persuasive arguments being made on the player's behalf. Just like how attacks are explained by swinging big ol' swords on the player's behalf. If you can't be persuasive or swing a sword, well, that's why stats and dice rolls and bonuses are quantified and easy to use.

But that's just me. See it as you see fit.

[Silferdrake]

Well, it seems that Belkar is still very much evil (no that there was much doubt about that earlier, but still). He may be evil with a slightly more sympathetic personality, but he's still very much a nasty bastard.

I assume he was talking about Banjo in the third panel?

[Themrys]

How do you know that poster is both a man and attracted to women?

I guessed. Women occasionally do say misogynist things, but are not as prone to judging "female gnomes" according to the behaviour of one single female gnome. That poster is either a man, or a very male-identified woman.
A woman likely wouldn't say "that gnome woman is easy to get" she would say "That gnome woman sure has a bad taste in men". Belkar didn't even try to "get" her, so why should she be "easy to get"? That is malecentric logic.

Regarding Haley's diplomacy check, we don't know what she told the people. Maybe the initial price was much too high, maybe Haley paid a bit of the price out of her own pocket, maybe she told them the OOTS has to save the world. She could have used immoral manipulation methods, or lies, but we don't know that.
Also, what has this to do with Belkar? Haley is a thief by profession. If she does something, that does not mean Belkar doing it is morally okay.

[Quild]

What is wrong? (Assuming that she wants it to be a date, indeed) Well, she wants to date a handsome man, and she decided to invite him for dinner.

A woman who judges men's attractiveness by their looks and not their self-perceived worth in terms of money or "niceness"? Shocking! A woman who makes her own decisions on whom to spend her time with instead of waiting for a man to make that decision for her? Shocking! A woman who has her own money and is able to pay for dinner? The horror!

It is sad that you think that way.
*snickers*


Doug (and Peelee) : Well, not sure we would have had any such "evidence" without the right timing. On the ship, Bandana mentionned "PC magic", even speaking about Roy. He has no magic, yet he is closer to a god than to a common NPC.
Haley tricks people on purpose on such deals. Belkar sized a double opportunity not to reveal his alignement (must come with his culture) and to have a good deal. Nothing to feel proud about, but that sounds more neutral than evil to me.

[Vahir]

I guessed. Women occasionally do say misogynist things, but are not as prone to judging "female gnomes" according to the behaviour of one single female gnome. That poster is either a man, or a very male-identified woman.
A woman likely wouldn't say "that gnome woman is easy to get" she would say "That gnome woman sure has a bad taste in men". Belkar didn't even try to "get" her, so why should she be "easy to get"? That is malecentric logic.

Regarding Haley's diplomacy check, we don't know what she told the people. Maybe the initial price was much too high, maybe Haley paid a bit of the price out of her own pocket, maybe she told them the OOTS has to save the world. She could have used immoral manipulation methods, or lies, but we don't know that.
Also, what has this to do with Belkar? Haley is a thief by profession. If she does something, that does not mean Belkar doing it is morally okay.

That's right, Haley is a thief, and a swindler as well, given her cheating the party of their earnings after Dorukan's, and her insider knowledge on the workings of shell games as seen in the battle for Azure City. My point is, if Haley can do all that and remain good, then the action of cheating someone else is not evil as such, and that therefore we shouldn't judge Belkar for making a bargain.

Edit: I suppose I just hate the "Heroic rogue" character archetype. When the villain steals and cheats, it's terrible, but when the hero does it, it's a sign of upstanding character.

[Peelee]

Haley tricks people on purpose on such deals. Belkar sized a double opportunity not to reveal his alignement (must come with his culture) and to have a good deal. Nothing to feel proud about, but that sounds more neutral than evil to me.

I do agree that it's not all that evil. Which isn't to say it's not evil. He openly lied about the items condition, and he is the one who offered to buy it at a discounted price. This is basically stealing. I'm sure this is nowhere near enough to to tip the grand cosmic scales in the southern direction (or at least, not for a non Lawful Good person or anyone who holds themselves to a higher standard), but its still something I would teach my kids not to do, ya know?

Although massive kudos to the Giant - I never really liked Belkar, and yet he's starting to grow on me recently. I may actually be kind of sad to see the little dude go.

[Keltest]

That's right, Haley is a thief, and a swindler as well, given her cheating the party of their earnings after Dorukan's, and her insider knowledge on the workings of shell games as seen in the battle for Azure City. My point is, if Haley can do all that and remain good, then the action of cheating someone else is not evil as such, and that therefore we shouldn't judge Belkar for making a bargain.

Edit: I suppose I just hate the "Heroic rogue" character archetype. When the villain steals and cheats, it's terrible, but when the hero does it, it's a sign of upstanding character.

Heroic Rogues are usually either Chaotic Neutral (and therefore heroic in terms of opposing the evil people rather than alignment), or Robin Hood type Chaotic Good people. Haley's all-purpose greed is rather strange for a solidly good character, and she knows it. Haley goes through a lot of self-doubt as to whether she is actually a Good character or not.

[Koo Rehtorb]

There's nothing particularly wrong with greed. It just depends on how far you're willing to go in pursuit of it.

[pendell]

Hmm .. so far as I can tell Belkar was already kilonazis deep in the evil alignment end of the pool at strip beginning and reached his nadir at the point he activated the mark of justice. After several days of throwing up, he started to improve, at least on the surface, for the sake of survival.

Now, there's no such thing as substitutionary atonement in D&D. No super-powerful being is going to just dump a whole bunch of good on a repentant Belkar and shift his alignment. We're not even sure that Belkar is all that repentant , anyway. In D&D, you've got to earn your alignment shift. Belkar has to do ... kilotheresas? kiloghandhis? ... worth of good before he's even at the shallow end of the alignment pool, let alone good or even neutrality.

So I think it's fair to say that Belkar's feeling remorse and refusal to take advantage of the gnomish store clerk constitutes a step towards good. But it's only a first step. Instead of 9999 kilonazis evil he's now 9998.66 kilonazis evil. He's still EVIL, just not as evil as he used to be. I think it is unlikely he'll ever reach even neutrality in this lifetime ... not unless he does something so overwhelmingly good that it instantly cancels out all the bad stuff, sort of like Darth Vader throwing the Emperor down the reactor shaft.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[crayzz]

How do you know that poster is both a man and attracted to women?

Priors.


That's right, Haley is a thief, and a swindler as well, given her cheating the party of their earnings after Dorukan's, and her insider knowledge on the workings of shell games as seen in the battle for Azure City. My point is, if Haley can do all that and remain good, then the action of cheating someone else is not evil as such, and that therefore we shouldn't judge Belkar for making a bargain.

Doesn't follow. Haley also has a history of doing very good acts, including freeing slaves at least twice. We also know from Haley herself that she doesn't always do good, and that the powers that be are not super strict with alignments (i.e. genuinely trying mitigates failures). Haley's various deceptions could very well be evil,* and that would not contradict the story nor the alignment system as OoTS portrays it.

* Actually, the example given of Haley's deception might be neutral. She needed the money to free her father. It was an evil act with a good goal which, by that deva's description, strikes me as neutral.

EDIT

Not to mention that I am not at all restricted by the OoTS alignment system; I can condemn such behaviour even if the alignment system does not. Though the Giant seems to want the alignment system to map to a functional ethical system (I guess this from my reading of the comic, and the Giant's past insistence that stories should have something to say about real life).

[hamishspence]

Now, there's no such thing as substitutionary atonement in D&D. No super-powerful being is going to just dump a whole bunch of good on a repentant Belkar and shift his alignment. We're not even sure that Belkar is all that repentant , anyway. In D&D, you've got to earn your alignment shift. Belkar has to do ... kilotheresas? kiloghandhis? ... worth of good before he's even at the shallow end of the alignment pool, let alone good or even neutrality.


According to DMG, it is possible for an evil character to instantly change alignment to good by having a "massive change of outlook" and sincerely repenting. But this is very much an exception to the general rule, of it being a gradual shift.

(Fiendish Codex 2 had special rules for Lawful characters of this kind - they become Hellbred, rather than going straight into the Good or Neutral afterlives. The only way to get out of becoming a Hellbred is to reduce your Corruption - and the only way to do that is to apologise to the victims of your evil acts, give up whatever you gained from them, and do some kind of penance).

So it may be "earn your afterlife shift" rather than "earn your alignment shift".

However, Belkar is Chaotic - and the Fiendish Codex 2 rules are optional anyway.

[dtilque]

You'd think so, but then again The Giant has made a point of demonstrating how Lawful Stupid some civilizations can be when it comes to people that are classified as "Evil". Would Redcloak be as hellbent on revenge if the Sapphire Guard hadn't embarked on near-genocide, simply because "Goblins are Evil"?

Just a nitpick here. The Saphire Guard didn't embark on near-genocide simply because Goblins are Evil. After all, the attack we see in SoD is hundreds of miles away from Azure City, so you'd think they'd need more of an incentive than that.

And indeed they have one. It's in the form of some prophecy to the effect that a goblin wearing a crimsom cloak will be instrumental in destroying their gate. Attempting to prevent this, they hunt down every goblin they can find who wears such an item.


ETA: It looks like davidbofinger already made a similar point. (I usually read the entire thread before replying, but I figured no one would address this. So I was wrong.) But I'm going to leave this up because of the slight differences. The prophecy (which we don't know the exact text of) definitely says it's going to be a goblin wearing a red cloak, not just some unidentified goblin from that village. Which is why all the paladins gang up on the previous bearer in SoD.

[Amphiox]

It might have been just this one gnome female, but there's no reason to think she's unusual for her species...

No reason... other than the assumption that gnomes are sentient, with the general average range of diversity in attitude and behavior that all sentient species have.

[xkcd_386]

Women occasionally do say misogynist things, but are not as prone to judging "female gnomes" according to the behaviour of one single female gnome.
Following stereotypes and making generalizations is what humans as a whole do.

[zimmerwald1915]

Following stereotypes and making generalizations is what humans as a whole do.
Yes yes, we all see what you did there, you're very clever.

[Wardog]

Belkar's long been established as not giving much of a muskrat's hindquarters about pain... and he's been truckin' on through while injured for pretty much ever.

Of course, by RAW, suffering HP damage doesn't actually cause pain".

(Or at least, any mechanical effect with "Pain" in the name").

[xkcd_386]

Yes yes, we all see what you did there, you're very clever.
Did what where? Is there a reason for sarcasm?

[zimmerwald1915]

Did what where? Is there a reason for sarcasm?
Your post itself was a generalization based on a stereotype.

[Throknor]

Not just because they were evil, but also because one among them (Redcloak, though they didn't known that at the time) threatened "the very foundations of creation itself".

Prophecy leads to causal loops. The goblins think they were attacked for no reason, so one strikes back by actions that may release the snarl. The Sapphire Guard know the goblins may release the snarl, so they attack pre-emptively. Both sides feel they are in the right. (Though they might have anyway, for other reasons.)

The same thing happens in the Terminator franchise. From the human point of view SkyNet attacked them and they fought back. From SkyNet's point of view it was barely awake when humans tried to kill it, so it fought back.

The Dark One specifically created the Crimson Mantle to give knowledge of the gates to the goblins such that they could secure one for him to use to blackmail the other gods. Where the Sapphire Guard went wrong was slaughtering goblin families instead of just capturing the Mantle and limiting their kills to those goblins that were actually capable of fighting back. Whether they misinterpreted the prophesy on purpose is a question for another thread, but to say his goblin tribe was attacked for no reason is incorrect. In fact, if they had killed only the Mantled one, taken it and left then the goblin now called Redcloak would never have risen to power.

So yes, it is their older attacks on goblins that lead to the retribution that destroyed them. But they were not without cause - just badly executed.

[xkcd_386]

Your post itself was a generalization based on a stereotype.
No it was not. It was a counter to the "women aren't as generalizing as men are" statement.
My reply being that gender has no effect upon willingness to follow stereotypes.

[Cizak]

Like, really just meant food and nothing more. It might have been just this one gnome female, but there's no reason to think she's unusual for her species.

There's no reason to think she's not an individual with her own personality, no. That's probably true for most of her species.

[BrokenChord]

I guessed. Women occasionally do say misogynist things, but are not as prone to judging "female gnomes" according to the behaviour of one single female gnome. That poster is either a man, or a very male-identified woman.
A woman likely wouldn't say "that gnome woman is easy to get" she would say "That gnome woman sure has a bad taste in men". Belkar didn't even try to "get" her, so why should she be "easy to get"? That is malecentric logic.

Ah, I sense it... Yes... The misandry is strong in this one. (For that matter, it's also strong in my computer's vocabulary, because apparently misogyny is a word, but misandry isn't.)



As for the comic, y'know, a lot of people are like "oh well, he's probably going to shift alignment in his last few minutes as shown by the item not burning him or something." But I have a sort of different idea. What if the Giant is just trying to send a message through Belkar's character development and the bond we've formed with him? The message translates to real life, but I'll use game terms for those who appreciate making parallels. I think what the Giant might be doing is saying that just because somebody beeps when you use Detect Evil, it doesn't mean they're just a terrible sleazebag who has no positive justification for existing. They can be complex, they can feel shame and act to try to minimize their wrongdoings, and they can have decency buried in there, all while still being Evil, whether that's because of what they do or their outlook on life.

There's no reason for Belkar to stop being Evil, but that's because there's no reason being Evil completely wipes out all opportunities to have goodness. (Intentional use and omission of capital letters.)

[Themrys]

Following stereotypes and making generalizations is what humans as a whole do.

Not about a group we belong to. A human woman would be more likely to stereotype gnomes as a whole.

Also, remember: Malecentric logic.

@Broken Chord: Your computer is right. Misandry is not a thing in the real world.

[Doctor Awkward]

Unsurprisingly, Protection from Law is illegal in many places.

Am I really the only person who burst out in an uncontrollable gigglefit when they read this?

I just can't be. I know it.

The number of puns in that sentence is too damn high.

[Quild]

Following stereotypes and making generalizations is what humans as a whole do.

Everyone generalizes from one example. At least, I do.

[Angelalex242]

Everyone generalizes from one example. At least, I do.

I see what you did there...

[Porthos]

I see what you did there...

Doesn't top my all time favorite of "Only a Sith deals in absolutes".

...

I'd really like to think the ironic nature of that statement was intentional on Lucas' part.... :smallsmile:

[Angelalex242]

I remember a skit where Anakin mocks ObiWan for that...

"...That was an absolute, Darth Kenobi!"

[The Giant]

Hey, let's ease back on the gender stereotyping and the talking about gender stereotyping and generalizing all that, OK?

And let's avoid trying to predict another poster's gender/orientation based on their comments, and/or attributing points of view to someone because of their gender. That has no place here, so stop it.

In fact, let's just all drop that whole portion of the conversation and only talk about the comic from now on.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

As per the GIant's request, I have removed the original content of this post.

SPECULATION: Gnome lady is left-handed.

EVIDENCE: In panels one, five, and seven, she gestures with her left hand. In panels four, eight, and nine, she holds the clasp with her left hand.

[Koo Rehtorb]

How sinister.

[Keltest]

As per the GIant's request, I have removed the original content of this post.

SPECULATION: Gnome lady is left-handed.

EVIDENCE: In panels one, five, and seven, she gestures with her left hand. In panels four, eight, and nine, she holds the clasp with her left hand.

Well I think she's ambidextrious. More specifically, she was born left handed, but due to her trade learned to use both hands equally.

[Peelee]

How sinister.

Bravo, sir.

[The Giant]

If you're going to make that argument, in this case it seems that the Giant agrees with those people, because the voluntarily offered date is considered immoral for Belkar to accept.

Why it's immoral, though, I haven't the faintest clue. Because he abused her trust to get a better deal? Haley does that constantly throughout the strips, and the morality of it is never brought up, really. Are we supposed to think, "Go Haley" when she does it, but "Boo Belkar" when he does? Why?

Whether or not it would be immoral for Belkar to go on the date is far, FAR less important than how Belkar feels about going on the date. The point isn't that it would have been the most heinous act in the world if he had gone for lunch; the point is that it was an unusual act of conscience for him to not go. Obviously, an even more impressive act of conscience would have been for him to not cheat her in the first place (or to own up to it afterward), but Belkar has a long way to go. He didn't have a problem cheating her when he did it, it was only her innocent invitation afterward that made him suddenly feel bad. Belkar is so new to this "caring" thing that he doesn't yet know what things will make him feel guilty until after he's already done them!

If your reaction is that, in similar circumstances, Haley would probably have gone on the date and scored a free meal, well, no, she wouldn't have. To my memory, Haley has never led anyone on romantically as part of a bluff. But if it did happen, it would not be to Haley's credit that it had.

None of which has anything to do with the situation about fixing the ship, which a.) involved the shipyard owner inflating the amount of time it would take to actually fix it (since it's clear afterward that she was physically capable of fixing it faster), b.) involved a trade whose promotional value may have been calculated as equal or greater than the cost of fixing the ship anyway, c.) involved the literal fate of the world as opposed to a free lunch, and d.) did not involve possibly romantic/sexual feelings, the abuse of which is generally considered much more egregious.

Haley is constantly treading water between Good and Neutral; if she swindles someone for the greater good, that's par for the course—no alignment implications. Belkar, on the other hand, is so deep underwater that any less-Evil-than-it-could-be action, however small, is noteworthy.

[GAAD]

Belkar, on the other hand, is so deep underwater that any less-Evil-than-it-could-be action, however small, is noteworthy.

You mean rumbleworthy?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How sinister.

This forum has the best puns.

[Angelalex242]

Well, I am pleased to see we were correct when the Giant flat out told us the point is that Belkar's Kilonazis are on the decline. :)

Assuming he even still HAS a Kilonazi. He might be down to only 500 of them. Or less.