Miniatures Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? [Archive]

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Cheesegear

2014-12-15, 01:20 PM

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. :smallsigh:

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
This guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13492157&postcount=1424) is very rough. But should provide you with at least a starting direction.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel. :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

Helpful Army Building Guides
7th Edition Guides
Blood Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18559882&postcount=120)
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17547175&postcount=1006)
Chaos Daemons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18615478&postcount=343)
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17579222&postcount=1095)
Dark Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18231371&postcount=779)
Eldar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18689927&postcount=471)
- Codex: Iyanden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17348755&postcount=166) by Wraith
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17538310&postcount=973) by Squark
Imperial Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18511698&postcount=1383) by Drasius
Khorne Daemonkin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19029512&postcount=1236) by Grim Portent
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17533986&postcount=962) by Squark
Space Wolves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17532761&postcount=948) by Squark
Tyranids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17664323&postcount=1310) by Wraith
Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17630054&postcount=1204)
- Space Marines Supplements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17194651&postcount=1289)
Space Wolves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17946320&postcount=453) by Squark
Tau Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15454276&postcount=563) by Tome
- Farsight Enclaves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot&p=17347839&viewfull=1#post17347839) by Tome
Orks (placeholder)
-WAAAGH!!! Ghazghkull (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-%28Dice%29&p=17723456#post17723456)

(Misc.) Fighter Aces (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz

Forge World
Siege Assault Vanguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17668255&postcount=1326)

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

Old Guides from 6th Edition
Adepta Sororitas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16440792&postcount=491)
Chaos Space Marine Supplements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot&p=17182178&viewfull=1#post17182178)
Inquisition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot&p=17188866&viewfull=1#post17188866) by Wraith
Orks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16334503&postcount=358) by Wraith
Astra Militarum Imperial Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17380372&postcount=293)
Guide to Apocalypse Units (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15727700&postcount=1014)
Warzone: Damnos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16015574&postcount=1418) - Ultramarines vs. Necrons
Warzone: Pandorax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16466457&postcount=514) - Chaos Space Marines vs. Catachans, Dark Angels and Grey Knights
Warzone: Damocles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17231655&postcount=1305) - Tau Empire vs. White Scars, Raven Guard, Imperial Guard and Knight Titans

Forge World
(IA1/2E) Imperial Guard Armoured Battle Group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16838329&postcount=972) by Issabella
(IA2/2E) Space Marine Vehicles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16977518&postcount=1084)
(IA3/2E) Elysian Drop Troops (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot/page3&p=17310139#post17310139) by Issabella
(IA9 / 10) Space Marine Chapter Tactics and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16807713&postcount=890)
(IA12) The Dark Harvest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16994548&postcount=1096) - Necrons
(IA12) The Minotaurs and Krieg Assault Brigade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17033958&postcount=1143) - Space Marines and Imperial Guard

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15044260&postcount=1114) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

LeSwordfish

2014-12-15, 01:37 PM

Might be useful to pop the guides to the Leviathan formations in under the tyranid section, if we're going to start with the usual updates to the OP.

Requizen

2014-12-15, 02:24 PM

Necron rumors and leaks are so painful when you know that the book isn't going to come until January some time :smallfrown:

Squark

2014-12-15, 02:54 PM

The Grey Knights guide linked to in the OP is out of date- It's for the old dex.

Vaz

2014-12-15, 03:07 PM

And there is the Book IV guide including 30k solar auxilia and knight lists, and theAdmech Taghmata Omnissiah rules. Put a bit of effort into those be a shame if they were lost.

Jormengand

2014-12-15, 03:14 PM

Yaktan

2014-12-15, 05:12 PM

I find skyrays are nice for AA. The local tyranid player is quite afraid of mine. :smallbiggrin:

Jormengand

2014-12-15, 05:43 PM

I find skyrays are nice for AA. The local tyranid player is quite afraid of mine. :smallbiggrin:

Don't have one, and I hate them conceptually - they rely entirely on limited-shot missiles and then wander around the battlefield aimlessly for the rest of the game.

Tome

2014-12-15, 05:45 PM

Friend has challenged me to a game; problem is he has fliers and the best AA I can come up with is probably two HRR broadsides. Also has a forgefiend but a hammerhead should probably be enough for that. Or I could go Mehrens and flakk his stuff out of the sky...

God damn it I swear that nobody gets decent AA that isn't also flying. Guess I could grab my valk out of storage, but don't really want to.
By your mention of Broadsides and Hammerheads I assume you have Tau?

In which case you have tons of options for anti-air. Seriously, our codex is literally the one with the strongest anti-air. Skyrays or any of the battlesuits will do, even stealth suits can help out if you're desperate, just stick a Velocity Tracker on them and you're good.

EDIT
Don't have one, and I hate them conceptually - they rely entirely on limited-shot missiles and then wander around the battlefield aimlessly for the rest of the game.
Skyrays are actually quite useful even after they've shot their load (though that load is definitely pretty impressive for their cost). Smart Missile Systems are useful and having Skyfire Markerlights on a durable, mobile platform is worth more than you'd think.

I'd say get a Crisis team with some missile pods as a second choice. Failing that, go with the Broadsides but try to bring some other suits with Velocity Trackers as backup. You should have some decent options, unless you've been relying exclusively on Hammerheads for your anti-AV firepower. What fliers is your opponent likely to bring? Even Burst Cannons from a Stealth Team are good if it's only AV10.

Requizen

2014-12-15, 07:11 PM

Finally, a clear picture of the Necron formation from next week's WD. (http://i.imgur.com/Btj9uDI.jpg)

I love Immortals. I love Monoliths. I think this formation is going to be pretty nice.

Drasius

2014-12-15, 08:59 PM

By your mention of Broadsides and Hammerheads I assume you have Tau?

In which case you have tons of options for anti-air. Seriously, our codex is literally the one with the strongest anti-air. Skyrays or any of the battlesuits will do, even stealth suits can help out if you're desperate, just stick a Velocity Tracker on them and you're good.

EDIT
Skyrays are actually quite useful even after they've shot their load (though that load is definitely pretty impressive for their cost). Smart Missile Systems are useful and having Skyfire Markerlights on a durable, mobile platform is worth more than you'd think.

This. HYMP with optional skyfire are probably the best ground bound AA in the game after skyrays. Hell, even HYMP broadsides with interceptor are decent AA, doubly so if you wave your laser pointers into the air. Stick a commander with pen chip in there to give 'em tank/monster hunter as well if you're so inclined, double points for having him mount a quad gun as well so your broadsides get a cover save/are in a building.

Farsight HBC riptide with ECPA and skyfire/interceptor is rad, again, even just normal IA tides with EWO and VT are decent if you've taken the TLFB like you should.

Hell, crisis suits with double pod and VT are troops if you use farsight enclaves, add double pod, PENchip, VT commander for super-best-funtimes. Expensive troops to be sure, but troops nonetheless. Even something like a single double fusion with VT is an option aginst fliers since they can DS down in the rear quarter, and with a 9" double melta range, you can be reasonably safe about where you put them.

http://primoberti.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/options-options-everywhere.jpg?w=604

You mentioned a valk, so you should also have a vendetta stashed somewhere or can proxy the valk as one for what is arguably one of the strongest AA platforms in the game, with only a stormraven beating it out that I can think of.

If you've got marines, a decent sized unit of grav cets, even without precience (though let's face, you should be running them as Ultras with tigurius), has a reasonable chance to put down a flier per turn and the stormtalon is great AA, as is the stormraven.

Cheesegear

2014-12-15, 10:19 PM

Cheesegear plays Sanctus Reach

Wrath of Gork
1. The Red Waaagh! Descends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18128928&postcount=695) (Planetstrike)
2. The Knights Strike Back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18166874&postcount=726)
3. The Fall of House Kestren (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18178605&postcount=736)
4. Enter the Steel Host (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18210401&postcount=762)
5. The River Runs Red (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18267100&postcount=835) (Planetstrike)
6. The Clockwork Massacre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18295332&postcount=876)

Toof o' Mork
7. Flight of the Morkanauts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18332962&postcount=930) (Planetstrike)
8. Attack of the Wreckin' Krew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18352097&postcount=965) (Planetstrike)
9. Battle for the Oasis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18378127&postcount=1019) (Planetstrike)
10. The Klaw of Mork (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18415814&postcount=1100)

Castellan Jakren Stein looked into the sky with his magnoculars. Tempestor Prime Salem Whitlock had failed, but his Mission was doomed from the start, the comet was going to crash into Alaric Prime no matter what Prime Whitlock did. Stein suspected that Whitlock undertook the Mission anyway, just to do something, anything, before the great comet struck the planet. Rage, rage against the dying of the light, as they say. The Sacred Mountain would turn to a smoking crater, and with it, all Imperial souls within the mountain would perish along with it. Jak had to coordinate the evacuation of the Mountain Fortress, but at the foot of the mountain stood a horde of Orks, ready to cut down any man who ran from the mountain.
"We can die in the Fortress, holed up like rats, or we can give the Orks the fight they want. Either way, that comet's coming down, and I intend to do out swinging."
Lord Neru Degallio, the Old Walrus, Seablade, The White Warden, the man who had issued the call for help weeks ago when all other Nobles holed up in their Houses. Degallio, who listened to the off-worlder General from the start, and thus the only intact House on the planet, took Stein's hand. "We're with you. Emperor Protects."

The Orks milling around the base of the mountain began to scatter and dive to the dirt as the opening salvos of the Imperial guns began to fire. However, Big Mek Mogrok had devised his latest Know-Wots just for this occasion. The giant shells from the Imperial guns hung in the air, the anti-grav shields that Mogrok had handed out to his most trusted Bosses bagan activating and staved off the massive explosions. The Orks looked at each other in confusion "We'z not getting shot up!?" questioned one Ork in the throng. Understanding dawned. "We'z not getting shot up!" This time, not a question. "Waaagh!"

Mission 11. The Imperium Sallies Forth

Imperium
List Restrictions
AM, MT and Knights
Warlord must be Codex AM.
Must include Adamantine Lance and/or Steel Host

Special Rules
Super-Heavy Walkers have Scout.

Codex AM, CAD
Company Command Squad - 110 Points
- (W) Castellan Jakren Stein; Krak Grenades, Carapace Armour
- Vox-Caster, Heavy Flamer, Medi-Pack, Flamer, Carapace Armour

Ministorum Priest - 25 Points
Ministorum Priest - 25 Points
Enginseer; Melta Bombs - 45 Points
Enginseer; Melta Bombs - 45 Points
Enginseer - 40 Points

Infantry Platoon
- Platoon Command Squad; Vox-Caster, Lascannon, Flamer - 60 Points
- Infantry Squad; Vox-Caster, Lascannon, Flamer - 80 Points
- Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Flamer - 75 Points
- Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Flamer - 75 Points
- Infantry Squad; Vox-Caster, Autocannon, Flamer - 70 Points
- Infantry Squad; Autocannon, Flamer - 65 Points

Infantry Platoon
- Platoon Command Squad; Vox-Caster, Lascannon, Flamer - 60 Points
- Infantry Squad; Vox-Caster, Lascannon, Flamer - 80 Points
- Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Flamer - 75 Points
- Infantry Squad; Lascannon, Flamer - 75 Points
- Infantry Squad; Vox-Caster, Autocannon, Flamer - 70 Points
- Infantry Squad; Autocannon, Flamer - 65 Points

Shadowsword Steel Cyclops - 515 Points
Sponsons; Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers, Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer

Codex AM, Rampart Detachment Formation (Red Waaagh!)
Platoon Command Squad; Vox-Caster, Lascannon, Flamer - 60 Points
Bullgryn Squad (x10); x3 Power Maul and Brute Shields - 505 Points
Bullgryn Squad (x9) - 415 Points

Knights, Adamantine Lance Formation (Red Waaagh!)
Knight Paladin - 375 Points
Knight Errant - 370 Points
Knight Errant - 370 Points

Total: 3750 Points

Victory Conditions
Objectives are worth 1 VP.
Linebreaker is worth D3 VPs.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/00-ImperialGuard_zps3ad38e8e.png

* As much as I would have liked to call the most powerful model in my collection 'Gotthammer' after Zorg like I always do, the Narrative decrees that the Shadowsword is named 'Steel Cyclops' instead. But, the point is that my Shadowsword should be named after Zorg, but isn't. Just this once.

Orks
List Restrictions
Must include Mogrok's Bossboyz Formation

Special Rules
Every Ork Independent Character comes with a 12" Bubble Field for 0 Points;
- 4++ against Shooting Attacks
- 2++ against Barrage weapons
- When the model dies, every unit within 12" takes D6, S8, AP3 hits

Orks, Mogrok's Bossboyz Formation (Red Waaagh!)
(W) Big Mek Mogrok; Mega Armour, Kombi-Skorcha, Cybork Body, Da Finkin' Kap, Tellyport Blasta - 125 Points
Big Mek Daggog; Eavy Armour, Shokk Attack Gun, Cybork Body - 94 Points
Big Mek; Eavy Armour, Da Fixer Upperz, Cybork Body - 59 Points
Goffboss Drogg; Eavy Armour, Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw, Bosspole, Cybork Body, Da Lucky Stikk - 134 Points
Big Redd da Warphead; Mastery Level 2 - 70 Points

Orks, CAD
Painboy - 50 Points
Painboy - 50 Points

Boyz (x20); Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Boss Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole - 270 Points
Boyz (x20); Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Boss Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole - 270 Points

Meganobz (x4); x2 Kombi-Skorchas, x1 Bosspole - 175 Points

Blitza-Bommer - 135 Points
Blitza-Bommer - 135 Points

Stompa - 770 Points

Orks, CAD
Painboy - 50 Points
Painboy - 50 Points
Boyz (x20); Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Boss Nob; Twin-Linked Shoota, Power Klaw, Bosspole - 273 Points
Boyz (x20); Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, x2 Rokkit Launcha, Boss Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole - 270 Points

Stompa - 770 Points

Total: 3750 Points

Victory Conditions
Objectives are worth D3 VPs.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/01-Orks_zpsaffc39f9.png

Deployment
So, once again, it's a pre-set Map, so the board is already decided for me. It's supposed to be a Wall of Matyrs Imperial Defence Network, except the illustration presented is not one of those things. Instead, what it actually is, is;

x5 Wall of Matyrs IDLs
x2 Firestorm Redoubts
x2 Vengeance Weapons; Battle Cannons
x2 Macro-Cannon Aquilla Strongpoints

Completely missing Bunkers, one too many Defense Lines and no Defense Emplacements.
In my opponent's DZ, there's a bunch of Ruins, but that doesn't really matter since pretty much everything he owns has a 4++ vs. Shooting attacks. What looks like a set of Promethium Relay Pipes is also in the Ork DZ, but since Orks don't have Flamer weapons (no, they don't, look it up), it seems pretty pointless. We called it a Defense Line since Orks might actually be able to use that without any downsides, but, as mentioned, 4++ anyway.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/02-Map_zps8f7a01ec.png

D3+2 Objectives. We roll four. I place first. Fairly standard. I place my Objectives in my Mighty Bulwarks because 7th Ed. allowing Objectives to be placed in Buildings is totally fair and arguably one of the changes from 6th Ed. that is worse. Putting Objectives in Buildings is stupid. Especially when Stronghold Assault is a thing.

I roll on the AM Warlord Traits and pick up the one that says I don't have to take Morale checks from 25% casualties. Awesome.
Mogrok, being a pseudo-Special Character has a fixed Warlord Trait - Kunnin' but Brutal - and then rolls on Strategic due to Finkin' Kap, and picks up +1 to Seize and re-roll Reserves. Holy poop. For those of you unaware, Mogrok already Seizes on a 5+, so now he's Seizing on a 4+ :smalleek:, and the Formation bonus from Mogrok gives D3 Ork units Outflank and Acute Senses, which means the ability to re-roll Reserves is even more awesome... Mogrok immediately rolls a '3' to determine how many units can Outflank.
I'll say it now, Mork knows what's up. Kunnin' but Brutal indeed.

Big Redd rolls Da Jump (because at this point, why wouldn't he!?) and Power Vomit. Bloody Hell.

Imperium deploys first. For those of you who haven't kept up with my posts, this Mission is played on an 8x6' table. The Imperium has the entire 36" half to deploy in, which, conveniently enough ends just in front of the forward Defense Line.
I deploy my Rampart Detachment front-and-centre on the...Ramparts. For those looking a bit confusing, Bullgryns in base contact with each other gain +1 to their Armour Save, so, T5, 3 Wounds, 3+ Armour and a 4+ Cover Save. Pretty happy with that. I throw my Adamantine Lance in the Defense Line bottleneck (the Knight Paladin sprite is currently bugged, you're going to have to trust that one of them is a KP), but they'll Scout anyway, so I'm not bothered where they go. Tempestor Prime Salem Whitlock did his job like a man, and winning Mission 10 also gives my Super-Heavy Walkers Rage and Furious Charge. Though I'm not entirely sure how sabotaging a huge Traktor Kannon translates into giving Knights bonuses in Assault, but that's what the bonus for winning Mission 10 is.

The Macro-Cannon Bunkers hold 30 models and 20 models, respectively. So I throw 2 Lascannons into the Large Bunkers, and 1 Lascannon into the Medium Bunker. Using the 10 extra Transport Capacity in the larger Bunkers, I place an Enginseer on the Battlements of either Macro-Cannon to shoot it.
In the two Firestorm Redoubts, I place 20 models with two Autocannons apiece. During this campaign, I have repeatedly learned my lesson about putting Order-giving units inside Buildings, so I opt not to do that, and place them where they can actually maybe do something.

Last but not least, I place Gotthammer Steel Cyclops in the back, with clear sight lines to most of the board, then I place Castellan Jakren Stein's squad, joined by an Enginseer, where the Enginseer is most cunningly standing right next to the Super-Heavy for no reason whatsoever. My Warlord isn't in Cover, but he's in the back of the board, he'll be safe for a while. I just have to watch for Outflankers coming in behind my Defence Lines.
For ~4000 Points, as I look at my army, it feels really, really small. But, then I remember that I have four models that average to ~410 Points apiece. If I remove those four models, I'm playing with roughly 2000 Points, plus a free Fortification Network that includes two AV15 Mighty Bulwarks and suddenly I'm not so bothered.

Fine Print
I also wrote a list that included everything seen in the Narrative for this particular Mission. My army list had a Baneblade, Shadowsword, Adamantine Lance Formation and Gerantius, with a Rampart Detachment thrown in for good measure, and 50 Infantry with a pair of Priests. As I looked at my army list with six Super-Heavies (yes, I fit all that in 3750), I realised that it would be no fun for my opponent to play against it. Especially when factoring in the free Fortification Network that includes two Mighty Bulwarks. Instead, I deliberately toned down my list to the Adamantine Lance - which I have to and should take anyway, because I have to take one of the Formations presented and Super-Heavy Walkers have Scout making the choice a false choice - and a Shadowsword because it's awesome. So, yeah. My army could have been something else entirely, but I decided against it for the sake of fairness. This has nothing to do with the Mission design, and everything to do with how under-powered the Ork Codex is.

He puts his two Stompas front and centre locking eyes with my Adamantine Lance (when you lock eyes you have to fight). Inside one is Goffboss Drogg, and in the other is the random Big Mek with the Fixer Upperz. Keep in mind that Ork ICs are carrying Bubble Shields, so the Stompas have a 4++ against Shooting attacks and my heart hurts. But Knights have Ion Shields, so, whatever. I'll also point out at this time that since a Warboss isn't the Ork Warlord, my opponent can't Waaagh!, I am fine with this.
Big Mek Daggog sets up in the Ruin containing an Objective with the Meganobz picking up Slow & Purposeful and therefore Relentless on his Shokk Attack Gun. Another unit of Ork Boyz crowds the Objective in the Fuel Depot Defense Lines. The rest of the Ork Boyz crowd around the Stompas, my opponent declares that both of his Fliers will be in Reserves, Outflanking, and his fourth unit of Boyz will also Outflank.

My Knights make their Scout move.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/03-Deployment_zpsec708a50.png

Turn 1
Orks Seize! Of course they did. At least it's not Night Fighting. :smallsigh:
The Stompas peel off from each other and the Ork Boyz units move up. Nothing special.
At the beginning of each Ork Shooting Phase, roll a dice, if the result is equal or less than the Turn number, the comet smashes into the board. Resolved as a D/10/8 1/2/3 Apocalyptic Mega-blast. Fortunately, my opponent doesn't roll a '1' on the first turn, so everything is fine. Had Tempestor Prime Salem Whitlock failed his mission, the Orks would get -1 to the roll. But, Tempestor Prime Salem Whitlock is awesome, so I don't have to worry about that.
The Stompas completely ignore my Adamantine Lance, and fire their Deff Kannons at the Firestorm Redoubts. One blows thanks to AP1, and the other Redoubt takes a Structural Collapse destroying on the Quad-Icaruses. Oh, I see, he's taking out my Skyfire Interceptor Fortifications and- Oh. I get it. Since we already learned way back in Mission 3, a single Stompa can easily take an Imperial Knight or two in Assault, and he has two of them. At this point I realise that he wants me to Charge his Stompas, since he knows that I know that there's really not much damage I can do to them by shooting them. As underpowered as Orks are generally considered, in the right hands, able to use the tools they have, Orks are pretty impressive. But, then again, everything with a 4++ vs. Shooting stacks the odds markedly in their favour.
Dagz' Shokk Attack Gun rolls something stupidly low, so nothing happens and Rokkits bounce off my Knights. Pass turn.

I break the Adamantine Lance. I send two Knights to meet Goffboss Drogg's Stompa, while I only send one to deal with the Fixer's Stompa. Since I don't have the Stompas surrounded, from the angle I'm looking at, I'm probably not able to even get two Knights into Assault with a Stompa, let alone three! *grumble, grumble stupid base sizes*

4 Lascannons into the Front Armour of Drogg's Stompa. One gets through. Bubble Shield. 3 Lascannons into the Side Armour. One gets through. Bubble Shield.
Macro Shells have two shots, so, thud-thud. Knocking off two Hull Points. Second Macro-Cannon. Thud-Thud. A massive Scatter takes the Shell into the arse-end of my Knight. Thank ****, I roll a '1' and deal no damage. The second shell hits the Stompa square, dealing another two HPs.
Not!Gotthammer scores a direct h-. Bubble Field. Never mind.
My Vengeance Weapons actually deal damage to the Ork Boy units. Though not nearly as much as they should be.

My lead Knight having rolled Seneschal drops his Thermal Cannon on t- Bubble Field.
My second Knight drops a second Thermal Cannon on the Stompa, scoring a Penetrating Hit, knocking off a Hull Point, but, as a Super-Heavy, the Stompa doesn't actually take damage.
Unfortunately, since I Scouted, I can't Charge in the first game turn. So that's that with that.

The left Stompa is on 7 HPs.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/04-Turn1_zps940db1e8.png

Turn 2
One of the Ork Fliers comes on, the other re-rolls (because Mogrok) and still fails. The fourth unit of Boyz+Painboy arrives on the board, and using Acute Senses, still 'fails' and ends up on the wrong side of the board that my opponent wants. The rest of the Orks kind of shuffle forwards, as Orks are want to do.
The Boom Bomb drops in the Movement Phase as it does, and everything goes A-OK. S7 Armourbane manages a Penetrating Hit, but AP2 and Mighty Bulwark cancel each other out, but I still take a Catastrophic Breach reducing the AV to 14, but, it also turns out that Mighty Bulwarks and Super-Heavies are not the same thing, and MBs can suffer Weapon Destroyed, which I did not know, and that's really annoying. Although to be fair, I have also never used a Mighty Bulwark until now. Luckily, Catastrophic Breach also happens to be one of the only results that doesn't impact on the Embarked models in any way, so that's good.
'Interceptor Phase', my one remaining Quad Icarus happens to be out of range of the Flier. My opponent had pre-measured this fact carefully, and angled his Flier accordingly. Unfortunately for him, a Quad Icarus Lascannon is not a Lascannon, and has a range of 96", not 48". So my opponent declares a Jink. Doesn't matter. The target isn't Flyboss Wingnutz so there's no lucksacking on Named Models (a true thing that exists) here, and the Bommer is blown away. Unfortunately, the Flier has already dropped it's Bomb, destroying the Macro-Cannon, so it's job was already done, really, except not really, 'cause now my Command Squad wont be shot at by Supa Shootas. The resulting Crash & Burn Scatters harmlessly.
Later, we discussed whether or not I should have told my opponent when he was pre-measuring, that he was pre-measuring wrong. It would have been the polite thing to do. But with 96" range, there was really nowhere he could have put his Flier where I couldn't tag him, and the dice rolls would have been the same (always assume the dice rolls would have been the same, otherwise your brain will start to hurt and post-game discussions don't mean a thing "I could have rolled [X]!", no, you couldn't. You still rolled dice anyway, and they came up with what they came up with - the only way to not have the dice rolls that you did, is to play a new game). In the end, my opponent admitted that he would have made the same move, as there really was no other move, dropping Boom Bombs on Mighty Bulwarks was what they were for, to've not dropped the Bomb on the Mighty Bulwark, and then get shot down anyway, would have been a waste. So, yes, it probably would have been polite to point out that my opponent was measuring wrong, but it wouldn't have changed anything.

The Stompa fires it's Deff Kannon at the Mighty Bulwark, Primary Weapon and Ordnance mean the same thing, unfortunately, it's still only a Glancing Hit. Fine. Still 3 HPs left, and the squad inside is still full strength. The right Stompa fires everything at the Firestorm Redoubt, demolishing it in the process, and causing a bunch of Wounds on the squad inside. My brave Guardsmen stick around, and then get shot at by Ork Shootas coming in from the flank, but, a Ruin is a Ruin, and it's Ork Shooting, so no-one's bothered too much.
Another squad of Ork Boyz fires into the Ruin on the other side of the board, and causes exactly zero Wounds. Ork shooting is the best - except when it actually is.

My turn, my Knight Seneschal manoeuvres around behind the Stompa to open up the Charge lane for the Knight behind him. My Bullgryns shift around and I silently thank the Emperor that my opponent hasn't gotten around to dropping his Massive Blast, S10 shots on my Bullgryns which would kill all of them in one shot. But, those Fortifications really are scary, and my opponent does have to deal with them.
The Enginseeer tries to fix the Mighty Bulwark, and fails.
Some Ork Boyz die, but due to Bubble Fields, which I'm really starting to get annoyed with, nothing really happens. My Vengeance Weapons actually do some work, and take out a bunch of Boyz from the middle Boyz squad, and, rather than shooting my own Knights, I throw down my Macro-Cannon shells at the Ork Boyz on the far Objective (I realise near the bottom of Turn 2, that for Orks, Objectives are worth D3, so I really should look into fixing that).

My Bullgryns fail the Charge. Overwatch does nothing. BS1 vs. T5, 3+ Armour, you know the drill.
My Seneschal and Knight Paladin Charge the Stompa with Goffboss Drogg in it. Because I won Mission 10, my Knights have Rage. Furious Charge actually does nothing, because Str-D, and you can't Weapon Destroy a Super-Heavy, so I don't know why the Designers put on Furious Charge (that's as stupid as giving Super-Heavies Daemonic Possession, wait, IA13 did that). Anyway, I throw a truck-ton of Str-D attacks at the Stompa with 7HPs, it explodes (as Super-Heavies do), and my opponent rolls the Titanic Explosion, which tags both Knights with a Str-D explosion hit, straight up rolls a '6' on my Knight Paladin D6+6= Minimum 7, so then my Knight Paladin also explodes, HE rolls a Titanic Explosion as well, throwing a second Str-D hit on my Knight Seneschal, who after taking two sets of D3 Hull Point damage is down to like, two HPs left. But we're not finished. That Stompa? Contained an Independent Character, who therefore held a Bubble Shield. He takes a S10, AP2 hit from being inside a Super-Heavy when it explodes, he takes the S10 hit, and is Instant Death'd. What happens when a Bubble Shield implodes? That's right, gravity collapses in on itself and every unit with 12" takes D6, S8 hits. So my Seneschal takes two HPs and also explodes.
****in'. BOOM! Combined, there's about 1800 points tied up in that one, giant explosion.

You had to be there. There's nothing like rolling dice as three Super-Heavies explode right next to each other. That just happened! There'll be radiation fallout in that zone fear years. Unfortunately, Orks seem to thrive on radiation.

My last remaining Knight Errant Charges the Stompa, again, with the Rage. Six attacks with a Str-D weapon is a lot (consider 12 attacks vs. a Stompa with 7HPs, above). I deal four/five (I forget) HPs, and a Stompa has four attacks base without even needing Rage or Charge, and he deals four/five back to me. The difference is, a Stompa starts with 12 HPs, a Knight has only six. He's done far more damage to me, than I have to him. And now the Stompa is locked in combat, so I can't even shoot it. But, this is the bottom of the turn, so it's not like I could shoot it anyway.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/05-Turn2_zpsa1845858.png

Turn 3
Now that both my Firestorm Redoubts are destroyed, his Burna-Bommer is free to come onto the board unmolested (can I say that word? I've been to tournaments where you can say s* and f*, but saying 'rape(/d)' is a DQ-able offence, PC-ness is weird. That said, Zorg [who I respect a lot, if you didn't know by now] asked me once not to use 'rape' in this thread, and I've tried to keep that going with other posters...Now where was I? Right...Reserves). Mogrok gets to re-roll Reserves and Acute Senses lets him re-roll into where he wants to be, and the Burna-Bommer drops its Boom Bomb onto my Mighty Bulwark - no, the other one - once again, Armourbane is a thing. He rolls a Structural Collapse which destroys the Macro-Cannon, but the real damage is the 2D6 hits distributed on the squad inside. Except then I remembered that Claimed Buildings count as Scoring, so I'm still good.
Orks shuffle around. Big Mek Mogrok and his unit move away from the Stompa-Knight combat. After what just happened, Big Mek Mogrok doesn't intend do die from a Super-Heavy explosion.
Big Mek Mogrok says "Do it now." Big Redd da Warphead and a Painboy peel off from the squad, creating their own little squad of two.
The Stompa is locked in combat. Although now I don't have Rage+Charge anymore, so that's probably a bad thing.

"You'z ready?" Big Redd asked. "'Ere. We. Go." Big Redd's lit up, as the bright, red warpaint liberally applied all over himself began to glow aaand...Jump. Having liberally used Gate of Infinity during the Battle of Boiling River, Big Redd was really, really good at teleporting (It's probably how he got out of Waaagh! Grukk before the whole thing went to Hell). Big Redd da Warphead and Friend-O the Painboy teleport, landing directly behind Castellan Jakren Stein's Command Squad. "I'z dizzy..."
The great, green energy boiling up inside Big Redd manifested itself as projectile vomit. Of great, green power. You may even call it a...Power Vomit. Yeah, there's nothing I can do against a S7, AP2 Template. Auto-hits everyone in the squad, S7 ignores FNP because I'm only T3. Officers aren't even Independent Characters, so Castellan Jakren Stein meets his final end, during the Battle of Sacred Mountain, getting Power-projectile vomited on by the biggest Weirdboy ever seen. The Enginseer, being an actual Indepdendent Character, passes his Look Out, Sir! roll. Unfortunately, the Enginseer fails his Morale check...And then rolls a '3' for distance. Basically, what he's done, is scurried underneath Steel Cyclops to get away from Big Redd.
Welp, that's Slay the Warlord. :smalleek:

Big Mek Dagz' Shokk Attack Gun, once again, does nothing useful. But, at least it's not exploding.
Orks Charge the Autocannon-unit in the Ruins of the Redoubt. Flamers do some Overwatch damage, but these are 'Ard Boyz, and have 4+ Armour and FNP from the Painboy, in the end, the Orks win combat by enough, and Sweeping Advance the rest.
Orks Charge my Bullgryns. My opponent obviously didn't read the Formation, because my Bullgryns have Counter-Attack as well, get Charged or be Charged. Doesn't make a difference to the Rampart Detachment. Orks manage to kill one whole Ogryn (just one). Orks lose by a lot, but manage to Bosspole into not failing the Morale check, so locked in combat it is!

My Knight, now not Charging, only has 3 attacks, he still manages to deal 2HPs because Str-D is just that good.
The Stompa, in retaliation, with four attacks base, at the same Weapon Skill, annihilates the last remaining one or two HPs on my last Knight. The resulting explosion Scatters somewhere harmlessly, while the Blast does tag the Stompa, it's too weak to do anything.

Okay, Turn 3, start to think about how to win the game. My opponent currently controls two Objectives, which are worth D3 apiece, and he has Slay the Warlord and First Blood. I need Linebreaker if I want to have any chance of winning at all. I have a Shadowsword, currently untouched, and he has a Stompa below half HPs. If I can destroy the Stompa, he has nothing which can reliably hurt my Bullgryns to any degree that matters. They're Fearless. If he wants the Bullgryns gone, he has to remove all of them, and that's not happening without the Stompa.
My Enginseer Regroups. He's an IC, he can do what he wants.
I move a Platoon Command into the Defense Line and prep my Bullgryns for Charging into the Ruins with the Ork Boyz. Steel Cyclops pivots to get an angle on the Stompa, unfortunately, that takes Cyclops' Heavy Flamers out of arc to fire at Big Redd.
One of my Enginseers manages to bring a Macro-Cannon back online.
My Vengeance Battery with double Battle Cannons attempts to pummel Mogrok's unit, and doesn't do so well, because 4++ Saves are a thing that Orks have now.

I really want to fire Lascannons at Big Redd and the Painboy. If I manage to kill one of them, the other one will take D6 S8 hits, and that should kill the other one. But, I really, really need that Stompa down if I want to have any chance of winning the game at all. Power Vomit is great, but it can't roll a '7' to Penetrate my Bulwarks on a D6, wheras the Stompa has Massive Blast, S10, AP1 attacks which can and will do serious damage. I fire four Lascannons into the Front and Side Armour of the Stompa. AP2 gives +1 to Damage, and now the Stompa is on two HPs.
Steel Cyclops speaks. There can only be one Highlander!
Str-D rips the last two HPs from the Stompa (Bubble Fields aren't Void Shields). While the Stompa had 12 HPs to begin with, and Cyclops only dealt 1/6th of the damage, it was Cyclops who scored the kill. So I'm painting another Super-Heavy kill-marking on Gotthammer. What? It's technically correct - and that's the best kind of correct. :smallwink:
The resulting explosion kills the Big Mek inside, dealing S8 hits to nothing. I'm going to regret letting Big Redd live, aren't I? :smallconfused:

The Bullgryns Charge the Orks in the Ruins, the Orks have FNP from the Painboy, and the Charging Bullgryns don't do nearly as much damage as they should, as always. On the other hand, the Nob with the Power Klaw can't even kill a single Bull', you need S10 for that, buddy. I still win combat by four, he Bosspoles into sticking around. Butt.
My Bone 'ead with the other Ork Boyz declares a Challenge. The Painboy accepts. Oh, sneaky. The Painboy is obliterated into a fine mist as the Bone' ead carries a Power Maul. When the Painboy dies at Initiative step 2, gravity collapses and all of the Ork Boyz die except the Nob. Only being S8, none of the Bullgryns care about collapsing gravity fields, and the Nob with Power Klaw punches out a Bullgryn. Ork Characters with Bosspoles by themselves are basically Fearless - as I've learned - and the Nob sticks around.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/06-Turn3_zps6bc0df08.png

Turn 4
His remaining Burna-Bommer flies off the board.
Big Redd Power Vomits on my Platoon Command, killing all of them.

Tempestor Prime Salem Whitlock was screaming into his Vox "Incoming, get out. Evac. T-minus 60 seconds to impact. Move! Move! Move!" The Vendettas and Valkyries in low orbit were trying their best trying to pick off smaller parts of the oncoming comet as it burned up in the atmosphere, but, as the main chunk of asteroid ignited on the atmosphere, the Guard's gunships broke off from the comet, they'd done all they could. Now all's that was left was Castellan Stein's ability to evacuate his men. But it was already too late. Broken and battered, Stein's Vox-man lay dead, Stein himself lay dead, the Vox squawking its evacuation order to no-one, no-one at all.

WHUMPF!
The comet lands on my Mighty Bulwark. Str-D doesn't care about now-AV14 in the slightest. Penetrating Hit. Structural Collapse breaks the Emplaced Weapon and causes 2d6 Hits on my Guardsmen, killing a bunch of dudes, then my opponent rolls a 6 on his D3 getting all the remaining Hull Points, so the Building also does it's Total Collapse, dealing another 2d6 Hits, and then the Str-D portion of the Blast also clips the secondary structure on the Mighty Bulwark and blows it apart.
Lucky the Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, otherwise my Objective grabbers would be Power-Vomited on, and I need those guys alive.
Big Mek Mogrok and Boyz Move and Run into some Ruins.
Big Mek Dagz rolls an 11 on his Shokk Attack Gun, but does nothing against the mighty AV15.

My Bullgryn Bone'ead Challenges the lone Nob, the Nob gets demolished by a Power Maul.
My Bullgryns on the left similarly demolish the other unit of Boyz. The Painboy explodes and removes a couple of Bullgryns.

My turn, I move my Bullgryns forwards to grab Linebreaker. I need it to win. I need Linebreaker to just not make this game a wash. I also need Slay the Warlord. I need it.
My Vengeance Weapons target Mogrok's unit and kill a few, but, again, that 4++ vs. Shooting is really, really dumb. But then my Guardsmen open fire on Big Redd and Friend-O the Painboy. I needed those guys dead because now they can't contest my Objective. But I forget that all Ork Independent Characters implode, killing a bunch of my Guardsmen, but they're sitting pretty with a Priest, so my remaining few guys left on the Objective are Fearless.

Some pot-shots from my Guardsmen with the Autocannons pick off a Meganob. Partly because Dagz Look Out!s everything that goes his way.
Cyclops' Blast attack Scatters badly, and that's my turn over.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/07-Turn4_zps94506821.png

Turn 5
Well, now with the comet out of the way, I'm breathing slightly easier. It didn't do nearly so much damage as it could have. But, still, I can potentially lose an Objective, and I need those. The Burna-Bommer uses its Acute Senses to come on the edge next to my shelled Guard squad, but Boom Bombs don't Ignore Cover, and my Priest makes them Fearless, so nothing really happens. Probably the biggest outcome is now my Autocannon squads have lines to the Rear Armour, not that that matters against Ork Fliers. Big Mek Mogrok realises that he's in a losing fight, and is now trying desperately to get out of Line of Sight of Steel Cyclops. Cyclops only needs one solid shot and I get Slay the Warlord, which I really, really want.

Big Mek Daggog fires his Shokk Attack Gun at the advancing Bullgryns...Zoink!, and teleports himself into combat with the Bullgryns, I'll take it!
Ork Boyz' shooting manages to knock out a single Bullgryn...Somehow.

Assault! Dagz gets his head caved in and my Bullgryns get a free consolidate move forwards. Nothing wrong with that.

If I know my luck, if I shoot the Bommer down, it's going to Crash & Burn backwards and land on my squad and I'll lose the Objective. So my Enginseer guarding Cyclops peels off and moves towards the Objective, the Shadowsword hasn't been touched all game, and isn't going to die anytime soon, so that's not a problem, I move my Bullgryns kind of in between the Meganobz and Big Mek Mogrok, depending on how the Shadowsword shoots, I want my options open.

Cyclops roars. Bad Scatter. Hits the Bullgryns. Really. :smallmad: Still, a Shadowsword only shoots a small Blast marker, not a Large one, so it's fine 'cause Bullgryns have large bases. Vengeance Weapons fire at Mogrok. Two Battle Cannon shots later, Mogrok finally fails a Look Out, Sir! roll, and he implodes. Bullgryns don't care 'cause they're T5, but the Meganobz take a clipping, and S8 doubles one out when he fails his 2+ Save.
My three Autocannons fire at the Bommer, then some Jink saves, and the Bommer is fine.

Since I made sure to save my Bullgryn shooting, I shoot some shots at the Meganobz, nothing happens. Then I fail the Charge, and the Meganobz get their Kombi-Skorcha shots anyway, but Bullgryns have a 3+ Save and aren't particularly bothered.

At the end of Turn 5, both of us are tired. If the game could end right now, that'd be great.
...It doesn't.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/08-Turn5_zps0ca126e1.png

Turn 6
His Turn 6, he does nothing. The Bommer is out of Bombs, and flies around, picking off a single Guardsman.
Ork Shooting takes out another Bullgryn.

My turn, Vengenace Weapons and Cyclops fires, not doing any damage because Cover Saves are a thing, and against the Battle Cannons, Meganobz have a 2+ Save.
My Autocannons bring down the Bommer, and predicatably, it Crash & Burns onto my own units, and they all die, luckily, they weren't on an Objective. I didn't exactly need it dead, 'cause it can't Hover and so therefore isn't Scoring and can't make Linebreaker, still.

My Bullgryns Charge. Bullgryns beat the Meganobz in combat by 1 thanks purely to Hammer of Wrath hits and having Frag Grenades. Sweeping Advance kills the Nobz and I consolidate onto the Objective. My Bullgryns charge the untouched unit of Boyz, and don't win combat. They stick around.

Game ends. Finally.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/TRW%20-%20Mission%2011/09-Turn6_zps9513422b.png

Results
Orks have Objective Secured and Bullgryns don't. My opponent also has Slay the Warlord and First Blood.
I control three Objectives, Slay the Warlord and have Linebreaker.

Imperium: 4+D3 - 2+D3 :Orks
Preferred Enemy (Dice), don't you dare do this to me...

Final Score...
Imperium: 5 - 4 :Orks
IMPERIUM WINS!!!!

Castellan Jakren Stein, Commander of the Imperial Forces on Alaric Prime, lay dying, choking on ectoplasmic goo. He'd evacuated his men from the mountain. Tempestor Prime Salem Whitlock had done what he could. But the planet's Noble Knight Houses were smashed to ruins, only a handful of Imperial Knights still stood on the entire planet. Big Mek Mogrok had smashed the Imperial strongpoint to smithereens. As Stein's eyes began to close for the last time, adrenaline surged in him one final time, as he saw more comets headed for his position. How can the Orks have more comets!? There were still so many Orks on the planet, and the Imperium had no leaders left to lead to last remaining Guardsmen on the planet, and whatever Knight Nobles left would surely fight amongst themselves for command, as only Stein himself had held them apart this long. But then the small meteorites broke atmosphere, and Stein saw retro-thrusters burn for a controlled descent. With his fading vision, Stein could make out the square eggs that could only be Space Marine Drop Pods, Stein could barely make out the blue-grey patterns marking the 'Pods...

Tune in for Part 2 of Sanctus Reach...THE SPACE WOLVES COMETH.

iyaerP

2014-12-15, 11:32 PM

That was awesome to read.

Drasius

2014-12-16, 12:43 AM

Loads of awesome stuff

That was fantastic, and totally worth waiting for. Nice work Cheesegear.

Tehnar

2014-12-16, 09:18 AM

Thanks for writting up those reports Cheesegear. Had a blast reading them. Are you planning to continue with the campaign?

bluntpencil

2014-12-16, 11:53 AM

Okay, so, with the new Blood Angels Codex, with the right units, it's possible to get Dante's Attacks up to 11 (It goes up to eleven!) on a charge.

He has 4 standard...
+1 for pistol and axe.
+1 for Chapter Banner (join Sanguinary Guard).
+1 for Charging.
+d3 (max 3) for the Quickening (Librarian).
+ an extra 1 for Rage, thanks to Unleash Fury (Librarian).

On a charge, he's striking at Strength 7, a Initiative 7-10 (6+d3 from the Quickening, possible +1 from Baal Strike Force), with a Weapon Skill of 6 or 7 (Priest dependant), and a Master-crafted Weapon, with an AP of 2.

If you're taking Dante, you're needing another HQ, so it may as well be a Librarian. And if you're taking Jump Packs, why not the dudes with the Chapter Banner? A pretty cool Death Star, even though Death Stars aren't always game-winning.

Personally, I think a small unit of Sanguinary Guard, with a Chapter Banner, accompanied by Dante, a Librarian and a Priest, one of which has Angel's Wing, is pretty cool, though, and capable of tearing through anything, assuming they don't get cut up by plasma. Drag along an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, with a Plasma Siphon, Psychic Communion and some Servo-Skulls, maybe?

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-16, 05:27 PM

Where are you getting the third HQ slot for the Priest?

Cheesegear

2014-12-16, 07:06 PM

Thanks for writting up those reports Cheesegear. Had a blast reading them. Are you planning to continue with the campaign?

Maybe. The second half of the campaign deals strongly with Space Wolves, and personally, I'm not a fan. However, the Space Wolves actually have a few restrictions in every Mission which prevent the Wolves from just spamming Thunderwolves or Stormwolves and calling it a day. My opponent - who is having a blast, BTW, since his Orks aren't just getting immediately shat on - wants to continue. So, yeah, it depends on how much I love Space Wolves.

Another, minor part of the Campaign is Mission 9 & 10, while its essentially the conclusion of the campaign, Orks don't feature in it. Basically, it's up in the air, Christmas/New Year is around the corner and I think I'll wait 'til that nonsense is all over before I commit to anything.

If you're taking Dante, you're needing another HQ, so it may as well be a Librarian. And if you're taking Jump Packs, why not the dudes with the Chapter Banner? A pretty cool Death Star, even though Death Stars aren't always game-winning.

Sounds like a lot of points for something that isn't the Formation that can Charge after a Deep Strike, it's also a lot of points for a Death Star that isn't carting around a reliable means to get Invisibility. It's possible, sure, but it's not worth it.

Chaos Lord - 3 Attacks
Mark of Khorne - Rage +2 on Charge
Axe of Blind Fury - +D6, attacks are at-Initiative AP2
Two weapons - +1
Juggernaut - +1

7+D6. And doesn't rely on a host of other things to remain effective. Every model that you remove that isn't Dante, actually hampers him anyway. All the Juggerlord needs to do is spend ~150 Points on Cultists, and he's good to go. In total, with a few extra pieces of wargear, the Lord and Cultists comes to 335 Points. Serving also as a Troops unit.

Dante is 220, Librarian is 90, Sanguinary Priest is 60. Jump Pack and Angel's Wing is 40. 410 Points, and you haven't even got a unit yet, and you need to be running a list with 3 HQ slots, which means you need at least four Troops units to grab double-CAD. As a theoretical exercise, fine, but Chaos Marines have been doing something similar for ages, better, and aren't hamstringing themselves when they do it. As a practical exercise, just play Chaos Marines.

Squark

2014-12-16, 07:12 PM

Something you mentioned in the last thread, Cheasegear, is that Space Wolves are doing fairly well against Knights by, "Not playing the game." Could you elaborate on that?

Cheesegear

2014-12-16, 07:45 PM

Something you mentioned in the last thread, Cheasegear, is that Space Wolves are doing fairly well against Knights by, "Not playing the game." Could you elaborate on that?

Sadly, I totally did. :smallfrown:

Blood Claws (x5) + Stormwolf - 275 Points
Blood Claws (x5) + Stormwolf - 275 Points
Blood Claws (x5) + Stormwolf - 275 Points
Blood Claws (x5) + Stormwolf - 275 Points
Blood Claws (x5) + Stormwolf - 275 Points

Total: 1375 Points

Fill out the rest with whatever you think you need. Go second. Knights can't hurt Fliers. Fly around for six turns. On the last turn, drop all your ObSec Transports into Hover Mode on Objectives and you win (5 Transports for 5 Objectives). You don't even need to destroy the Knights because they don't have ObSec and you do, and the Knights can't really hurt you, so the only dice that ever get rolled are Space Wolf Reserve rolls and whatever the Knights do to hurt your ground Troops on Turn 1.

bluntpencil

2014-12-16, 08:19 PM

Maybe. The second half of the campaign deals strongly with Space Wolves, and personally, I'm not a fan. However, the Space Wolves actually have a few restrictions in every Mission which prevent the Wolves from just spamming Thunderwolves or Stormwolves and calling it a day. My opponent - who is having a blast, BTW, since his Orks aren't just getting immediately shat on - wants to continue. So, yeah, it depends on how much I love Space Wolves.

Another, minor part of the Campaign is Mission 9 & 10, while its essentially the conclusion of the campaign, Orks don't feature in it. Basically, it's up in the air, Christmas/New Year is around the corner and I think I'll wait 'til that nonsense is all over before I commit to anything.

Sounds like a lot of points for something that isn't the Formation that can Charge after a Deep Strike, it's also a lot of points for a Death Star that isn't carting around a reliable means to get Invisibility. It's possible, sure, but it's not worth it.

Chaos Lord - 3 Attacks
Mark of Khorne - Rage +2 on Charge
Axe of Blind Fury - +D6, attacks are at-Initiative AP2
Two weapons - +1
Juggernaut - +1

7+D6. And doesn't rely on a host of other things to remain effective. Every model that you remove that isn't Dante, actually hampers him anyway. All the Juggerlord needs to do is spend ~150 Points on Cultists, and he's good to go. In total, with a few extra pieces of wargear, the Lord and Cultists comes to 335 Points. Serving also as a Troops unit.

Dante is 220, Librarian is 90, Sanguinary Priest is 60. Jump Pack and Angel's Wing is 40. 410 Points, and you haven't even got a unit yet, and you need to be running a list with 3 HQ slots, which means you need at least four Troops units to grab double-CAD. As a theoretical exercise, fine, but Chaos Marines have been doing something similar for ages, better, and aren't hamstringing themselves when they do it. As a practical exercise, just play Chaos Marines.

I'm going for cool at the same time. :)

Chaos have to issue challenges, right? Lack of Eternal Warrior may be a thing, too.

bluntpencil

2014-12-16, 08:21 PM

Where are you getting the third HQ slot for the Priest?

Dante isn't an HQ. ;)

Arutha

2014-12-16, 08:27 PM

Cheesegear

2014-12-16, 08:39 PM

I'm going for cool at the same time. :)

Dante isn't an HQ. ;)

If you were a real man, you'd use a third HQ, and bring Sanguinor for another +1 Attack.

'Cause what's the point of forging a narrative if you can't make it your own.

Because the Narrative isn't the problem. The problem is Space Wolf rules which I don't like. The problem is having to Ragnar and/or Logan need to be your Warlord in like, 6 of the 8 Missions.

bluntpencil

2014-12-16, 11:00 PM

Edit: No, read that wrong. Are there any Detachments without the Faction restriction, though?

Cheesegear

2014-12-17, 03:07 AM

Edit: No, read that wrong. Are there any Detachments without the Faction restriction, though?

Why do you need special Detachments, what's wrong with CADs? From what I've seen (during the weekend and an odd game), Blood Angels, like Orks, benefit greatly by having several Detachments. The more Priests (FNP) that you can throw around, the better. Blood Angel Librarians are looking like they're getting the hard pass since they don't have access to Telepathy, in favour of more Priests. Corbulo appears mandatory, and Mephiston being ML3 with Adamantium Will made himself recognised over the weekend, though of course, not as Telepathy-caddy, throwing in a second CAD brings another two Priests.

What interests me though, is Death Co. and Sanguinary Guard now vie for the same slots, at fairly competitive points costs, too.
Death Co; Power [Axe/Sword], Jump Pack - 38 ppm
Sanguinary Guard; Encarmine [Axe/Sword] - 33 ppm

Both have identical statlines, DC have FNP vs. SG's 2+ Save. On the Charge, DC have Rage and two weapons for +3 Attacks. All the time, SG have Master-Crafted Weapons. In a five-model squad, the Chapter Banner on the SG evens out to 38 ppm, and only gets more efficient the more SG you cram into the unit. It's fairly equalised since Inferno Pistols and Power Fists have identical points costs and so cancel out. In the coming weeks I strongly suspect that Blood Angel players are going to fall into two camps; Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. But, that's my take, and only having the Codex for a week.

ION;
Trying to get my 'Space Wolf' on, in Hour of the Wolf, Ragnar Blackmane must be the army's Warlord for three Missions (out of eight), unfortunately, I have no idea what to do with him. He has to Issue and Accept Challenges whenever possible, but only carries an AP3 weapon that doesn't cause Instant Death. What do I do with that? It's Krom Dragongaze all over again. Ragnar wont kill a Warboss in one turn, in return, will receive a Power Klaw to the face and die. I strongly suspect that if I have any illusions about playing HotW, I should probably start learning to Space Wolf...Now where did I put my Three Wolf Moon shirt?

bluntpencil

2014-12-17, 03:42 AM

What interests me though, is Death Co. and Sanguinary Guard now vie for the same slots, at fairly competitive points costs, too.
Death Co; Power [Axe/Sword], Jump Pack - 38 ppm
Sanguinary Guard; Encarmine [Axe/Sword] - 33 ppm

Yeah, I guess Death Company can be made cheaper by only giving Power Weapons and Fists to a few models, using the others as ablative wounds. Is Lemartes worth it - he seems expensive? Astorath's axe seems an utter liability, so he's right out.

Sanguinary Guard, in numbers, with the possible addition of a Priest, is pretty cool too. I'm thinking Angel's Wing will be used in every army planning Jump Pack Deep Strikes.

Personally, I think Command Squads' access to Storm Shields is still pretty useful. They can make for reasonably cheap human shield for the likes of Dante, who does seem like something of a beatstick now.

Command Squad, 3 Storm Shields, Jump Packs: 155
Add in Dante, or maybe Mephiston, and you've quite the scary, hard-to-kill, melee squad.

Is Gabriel Seth now the cheapest Lord of War in the game? This could prove useful for spamming Priests (although I love the idea of teaming Librarians up with Seth or Dante in order to cast the Quickening on them). Seth with the right buffs could prove very effective, possibly in a Death Company.

Cheesegear

2014-12-17, 04:24 AM

Yeah, I guess Death Company can be made cheaper by only giving Power Weapons and Fists to a few models, using the others as ablative wounds.

If you don't give the Death Co. Power Weapons, their effectiveness drops considerably, as Melee attacks don't have an AP value, while Sanguinary Guard keep steamrolling because they do have Swords and Axes. Death Co that don't have Power Weapons can trade for Relentless Boltguns, which is kind of okay. But Sanguinary Guard come with AP4 Angelus Boltguns which are Assault weapons cancelling out Relentless, and AP4 takes out Dire Avengers and Fire Warriors. If you need to be cheap, sure, 23 Point Death Co. models have some strong staying power since they don't rely on a Priest for FNP saving even more points.
If its your turn and you can Charge, DC are really, really strong with Power Weapons. If it's not your turn, and you're getting Charged, SG are kind of better, sort of, for five points less than a kitted Death Co. Marine.

Like I said, I don't think there's really a right answer. Both units have merits, depending on what you want to do and how you use them. But, what I do know, is that it will be a rare Blood Angels' army that fields both units.

Is Lemartes worth it - he seems expensive? Astorath's axe seems an utter liability, so he's right out.

Lemartes is a Character in a unit that doesn't have any. He can pick up Challenges, but his more important use is to throw a Chaplain in your Death Company without taking your valuable HQ slots which are reserved for Priests and force multipliers. The only actual problem with Lemartes is that he isn't a unit addition, he actually takes an Elite slot all to himself, and can only join DC, which means you're probably using two Elite slots for one unit.

Astorath doesn't have any language on him that says he can only join units of DC. So, if he's your Warlord, he can pass out Adamantium Will to any squad. But, so does Mephiston, with ML3 for more bonuses.

Sanguinary Guard, in numbers, with the possible addition of a Priest, is pretty cool too. I'm thinking Angel's Wing will be used in every army planning Jump Pack Deep Strikes.

Death Company, in numbers, with the possible addition of a Priest, is pretty cool too. The difference is that Death Co. already have FNP and have less use for the Priest. Priests are Independent Characters, they can go anywhere.

Personally, I think Command Squads' access to Storm Shields is still pretty useful.

Yes.

They can make for reasonably cheap human shield for the likes of Dante, who does seem like something of a beatstick now.

Sort of. Command Squads have problem in that the Company Champion has to Issue and Accept Challenges with an AP3 weapon, Space Marines have the same problem, but, for them, Champions are optional, wheras Blood Angels are forced into having one. Also, Blood Angels get Apothecaries for free as well. Maybe having a Champion and Apothecary for free is the Designer's way of making Command Squads a little bit attractive when standing next to DC and SG. Having said that, DC, SG, CS with free Champion and Apothecary, what are Vanguard even doing in the Blood Angels Codex? I can't really see any reason to take them at all.

Drasius

2014-12-17, 04:38 AM

ION;
Trying to get my 'Space Wolf' on, in Hour of the Wolf, Ragnar Blackmane must be the army's Warlord for three Missions (out of eight), unfortunately, I have no idea what to do with him. He has to Issue and Accept Challenges whenever possible, but only carries an AP3 weapon that doesn't cause Instant Death. What do I do with that? It's Krom Dragongaze all over again. Ragnar wont kill a Warboss in one turn, in return, will receive a Power Klaw to the face and die. I strongly suspect that if I have any illusions about playing HotW, I should probably start learning to Space Wolf...Now where did I put my Three Wolf Moon shirt?

Stick him in a unit of wolf guard with Thor and have Lysander-lite issue/accept challenges since he's got the same rule about must issue/accept? Unfortunately, now you're in the hole for what, 450 points?

You could also stick him in a pod/flyer and have it come in from reserves, heroicly capturing an objective far, far away from his warboss or anyone with a powerklaw, though that's hardly an enticing narative is it?

Squark

2014-12-17, 08:24 AM

Stick him in a unit of wolf guard with Thor and have Lysander-lite issue/accept challenges since he's got the same rule about must issue/accept? Unfortunately, now you're in the hole for what, 450 points?

You could also stick him in a pod/flyer and have it come in from reserves, heroicly capturing an objective far, far away from his warboss or anyone with a powerklaw, though that's hardly an enticing narative is it?

Alternatively, just use company of the great wolf (Plus, as long as a wolf guard is in a challenge, the whole unit gets preffered enemy- including Ragnar). Not entirely fitting with the narrative, but, hey, take what you can get.

Edit: Only problem is some of the missions are demanding you use his stupid blood claw formation, I imagine.

Eldan

2014-12-17, 08:46 AM

13_CBS

2014-12-17, 09:58 AM

Man I loved my last game. 4000 points Tyranids vs. mixed marines (Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Sisters). Absolutely beat the crap out of them. They had two models left on the table at the end, a generic Blood Angel tac marine and a single Imperial Fist devastator. I didn't lose a single one of my big monsters. And killed Lysander for the first time (I was facing him every single campaign battle).

Victory points was actually pretty close in the end, but it was extremely satisfying.

That actually sounds really awesome and something straight out of, say, a Codex fluff piece--the Nids wipe out the Imperial defenders, but not before the humans manage to capture critical, oh, orbital relays that allow for reinforcements/lets them call down a purge by orbital bombardment.

...don't suppose you'd be willing to do a battle report on it? :smallbiggrin:

Eldan

2014-12-17, 10:14 AM

Uhm, it was chaotic, complicated, long and I don't remember all the details. So, probably no.

The three marines, by the way, weren't what I'd call strong players. Local shop grognards. Definitely experienced, I'd guess they were all in their thirties. Mostly the same models they had for their entire career and tactics to match.

Neither side had Lords of War, formations or fortifications, or used data slates, they all agreed that was too cheesy. I did have a Toxicrene and a Tyrannocyte, since WD is apparently okay.

Plus, I had two fliers and their only AA was a Stalker, which died before my fliers came on. That helped a lot.

Apart from that... the blood angels' assault marine wing took up one flank and got hilariously stuck in a swarm of termagants for several turns. Then the Tyrannocyte with Toxicrene landed in their middle and they made the mistake of focusing their fire on the pod, because apparently, 15 S5 shots look more threatening than a giant land kraken.

My entire central formation moved through forests with a venomthrope, so tanked crazy amounts of fire from the Fists without losing much and giving back via two exocrines who luckily removed two units of terminators before they got in close combat. The Sisters dismantled my other flank, which was also mostly gants, before two units of close combat Warriors (armour piercing and poison) with fire support and a Trygon crashed into them. The transports probably gave me more problems than the sisters themselves. Though I did lose tons and tons and tons of cannon fodder to all those flamers. (They had four meltas in the unit my warriors assaulted first, but luckily all missed.)

Eventually, my HQ (shooter-tyrant and three hive guard) met the Fists'. Three rounds of challenge between the tyrant and Lysander followed, which ended with 1 wound on my sidee (thanks, regeneration and FnP!) and Lysander and his unit dead. Then their formation sort of crumbled.

Requizen

2014-12-17, 11:29 AM

After the last two games, my GUO is officially named Brick. He has yet to die in any game I've used him in, but the last two were particularly entertaining.

Last week: Went against an Iron Hands list. Be'lakor Peril'd, failed two 2+ Jink Saves, and grounded himself to death. Another Daemon Prince got lit up by a Sicaran, a Contemptor Dread, and a regular Dread, eventually failing enough to die. The final Daemon Prince only needed to be shot at by a single freaking Contemptor to die. And this was after they failed 4/5 of their Summoning Attempts.

Brick? Brick rolled Iron Arm and Warp Speed, Deep Struck into enemy lines, killed a Devastator squad and then stayed in combat with the enemy Chapter Master on a Bike for a few turns without taking so much as a wound. He was my only model left on the table at Turn 6, and he was full Wounds and still kicking this CM in the teeth.

This week: Played against some Dark Eldar. Things went ok around the board. Summoning actually worked, Plaguebearers and Nurglings camping objectives were bascially unkillable with cover saves, only had one Prince die from Warp Storm this game. Plague Drones with Invisibility are actually freaking amazing, by the way, T5 W3 models that can only be hit on 6s and have Poison Instant Death are much better than what I was doing with them before. Of course, it wouldn't be one of my games if Be'lakor didn't fail 3 2+ Invulns in a single turn and then die to Bloodbrides, but what can you do, at least he was there for Invis. Maybe he'll be happier once I paint him.

Brick though? Brick rolled FNP 4+ and +1W/IWND for his Greater Rewards. He tanked Scourges, Wracks, and Hellions firing Dark Lances, Heat Blasters (? the melta things), Ossefactors (Fleshbane), a **** ton of Poison shooting, and just stood there and laughed with 3 Wounds left and in charge distance. If the game had gone on, he would have Assaulted and murdered the crap out of things.

So yeah. Between being the most unkillable thing I've ever fielded and having the old, heavy, metal model, Brick seems to be a very fitting name :smallamused:

Drasius

2014-12-17, 12:17 PM

more threatening than a giant land kraken.

I know it's early, but, new thread title?

Eldan

2014-12-17, 12:37 PM

I'm all for that. It's also a hypertoxic land kraken.

And impossible to transport. Seriously, it doesn't fit in any of my boxes. I have to stick it in there up right, with the tentacles poking out, waving in the wind, only covered by a plastic bag. It's worse than the fliers, even.

Adrastos42

2014-12-17, 07:08 PM

Cheesegear

2014-12-17, 08:18 PM

Edit: Only problem is some of the missions are demanding you use his stupid blood claw formation, I imagine.

Mission 1 includes Ragnar
Missions 5 & 6 includes Ragnar's Claws
Missions 2, 7, 8 (& 10) include Logan

Logan I have no problems with, he's huge. Ragnar, on the other hand true-to-form, only looks like a free Warlord kill, one of the Missions is even titled Ragnar's Folly. I have no problems with Blood Claws, 7th Ed. costs actually make Blood Claws competitive with Grey Hunters, and if you want to make an army based around Blood Claws, you can actually do that. It's just Ragnar that I don't like. I've stressed many times that the best Warlords are the ones that don't die, and Ragnar just looks like he's going to give away free points. I wasn't impressed with Ragnar in 5th Ed., I'm even less impressed with him in 7th. To his credit, Krom Dragongaze at least carries an AP2 weapon. Ragnar Blackmane is to Space Wolves as the Lucius the Eternal is to Chaos Marines, due to terrible wargear choices, he is only a liability.

On the other hand, being forced to spend points on Ragnar's Formation is - IMO - okay. Because it's a Narrative. The less points you have to spend on shooty options like Long Fangs, only makes the Mission more fair. But, then the problem I had with some of the Missions during Red Waaagh! was both armies playing the same game. Armies full of Blood Claws and Orks want to do the same thing, and I suppose that's interesting in its own way, but from a Narrative standpoint it's just lazy.

Requizen

2014-12-17, 08:52 PM

We chatted about it a bit last thread, but I wanted to ask a bit more about CSM bikers. If one were so inclined, could you make a CSM version of the SM Chapter Master Smashbane (using the polite name, you know the one I'm talking about)? It looks like you can't get better than a 3+/4++ without going Crimson Slaughter, which is cool but then you lose out on BB Daemons. The various marks are nice, and of course you could throw Be'lakor in for Invisibility as well.

Grim Portent

2014-12-17, 09:06 PM

Cheesegear

2014-12-17, 09:09 PM

If one were so inclined, could you make a CSM version of the SM Chapter Master Smashbane (using the polite name, you know the one I'm talking about)?

First, you need 4 Wounds and 4 Attacks to even come close to a Chapter Master. So, your Lord needs to be mounted on a Palanquin or Juggernaut. Mark of Nurgle gives +1T, but so does a Juggernaut, MoK and Jugg is cheaper than MoN and Palanquin, and having the Mark of Khorne gives Rage and Counter-Attack on top and being Cavalry gives you speed that a Palanquin also doesn't. Your next choice is adding a Sigil of Corruption and Gift of Mutation. Then throw on the Axe of Blind Fury for at-Initiative AP2 because you must Challenge, give Melta Bombs for insurance and look, you've made a Juggerlord.

Squark

2014-12-17, 09:14 PM

Mission 1 includes Ragnar
Missions 5 & 6 includes Ragnar's Claws
Missions 2, 7, 8 (& 10) include Logan

Logan I have no problems with, he's huge. Ragnar, on the other hand true-to-form, only looks like a free Warlord kill, one of the Missions is even titled Ragnar's Folly. I have no problems with Blood Claws, 7th Ed. costs actually make Blood Claws competitive with Grey Hunters, and if you want to make an army based around Blood Claws, you can actually do that. It's just Ragnar that I don't like. I've stressed many times that the best Warlords are the ones that don't die, and Ragnar just looks like he's going to give away free points. I wasn't impressed with Ragnar in 5th Ed., I'm even less impressed with him in 7th. To his credit, Krom Dragongaze at least carries an AP2 weapon. Ragnar Blackmane is to Space Wolves as the Lucius the Eternal is to Chaos Marines, due to terrible wargear choices, he is only a liability.

On the other hand, being forced to spend points on Ragnar's Formation is - IMO - okay. Because it's a Narrative. The less points you have to spend on shooty options like Long Fangs, only makes the Mission more fair. But, then the problem I had with some of the Missions during Red Waaagh! was both armies playing the same game. Armies full of Blood Claws and Orks want to do the same thing, and I suppose that's interesting in its own way, but from a Narrative standpoint it's just lazy.

Aha! Solution. Take a small Company of the Great Wolf detachment including an HQ who can take challenges for Ragnar while having a 2+ save. Logan sent a priest and a number of his Wolf Guard to advise Ragnar,

Requizen

2014-12-17, 09:16 PM

So is the Juggerlord the best way to do "Go fast and hit hard" other than Princes for CSM? I wasn't looking for an identical statline to the Bike Chapter Master, but more playstyle/effectiveness.

Cheesegear

2014-12-17, 09:25 PM

Aha! Solution. Take a small Company of the Great Wolf detachment including an HQ who can take challenges for Ragnar while having a 2+ save. Logan sent a priest and a number of his Wolf Guard to advise Ragnar,

Problem solved! I can't bring Arjac, because it's a Narrative, and the only Unique characters allowed are the ones that the Mission allows you to have. But Champions of Fenris has 'Faction: Space Wolves' so it totally works. Well done.

So is the Juggerlord the best way to do "Go fast and hit hard" other than Princes for CSM? I wasn't looking for an identical statline to the Bike Chapter Master, but more playstyle/effectiveness.

You mean a Juggerlord isn't Cavalry enough for you? Or did you mean 9-13 at-Initiative, S6 AP2 attacks isn't hitting hard enough?

Then you can throw in a Sorcerer - with Axe - with no Mark because Sorcerers don't need to be Marked and its a bad idea anyway. Anywhere the Lord goes, your Sorcerer can go too, because he's unMarked. Now roll three times on Telepathy, abuse the Spell Familiar and be Invisible and/or Shrouded as often as possible.

Cavalry, Bikes and Jump Infantry all move at the same speed. So Warp Talons, with their ability to only access AP3 weapons, can be joined by a Juggerlord and Sorcerer with AP2 weapons. Warp Talons also have a natural Invulnerable save which Bikes don't. While you can't grab the Mark of Tzeentch because you have a Juggerlord attached, you can still pick up the Mark of Khorne, Warp Talons with Rage are stupid stong, if only they had a way to pick up Frag Grenades...Oh, look, they're joined by Independent Characters carrying Grenades. Fantastic.

Requizen

2014-12-17, 09:46 PM

Well, not that it doesn't hit hard enough, I just don't know the CSM book enough to know all the options.

I like the aesthetics of bikes, but the Juggerlord is pretty cool too.

Really I'm looking for a fast, killy style deathball. Yes, my Daemon book has Screamers and Screamerstar is mobile and kills vehicles nice, but it's not exactly a "Hey, watch me smear this dude once the Deathstar reaches it" unit I was looking for. Herald of Khorne with Hounds does that (as does HoSlaanesh with Seekers, but more fragile), but like I said, I like the bike aesthetic and wanted to see if there were other options bringing in CSM bikers.

Squark

2014-12-17, 10:08 PM

Problem solved! I can't bring Arjac, because it's a Narrative, and the only Unique characters allowed are the ones that the Mission allows you to have. But Champions of Fenris has 'Faction: Space Wolves' so it totally works. Well done.

Even though Company of the Great Wolf is technically specific to Logan's company, like I said, it's not hard to work in the narrative, and pretty much every Space Wolf player who ran Krom's company uses it since Krom is also heavy on the Wolf Guard.

Cheesegear

2014-12-17, 10:29 PM

but like I said, I like the bike aesthetic and wanted to see if there were other options bringing in CSM bikers.

Well, one of the killiest models in the game is a Juggerlord. If he's got the Charge, he'll paste everything. Unfortunately, Mark of Khrone on regular Bikers is really, really weak. Rage is cool, but unlike Warp Talons, they don't have any good weapons.

Nurgle gives +1T, Slaanesh gives FNP, Tzeentch gives a 6++.

The only real option there is Slaanesh. T6 doesn't really matter because Bikers only have one Wound anyway. FNP is huge on Bikes, 6++ is kind of okay sort of. The problem with Slaanesh Lords is that there's really no alternative to the Axe of Blind Fury, it's so good. If you want, you can try out the Murder Sword, but with so many other HQs out there running with T5 or better, and packing Invulnerables, the Murder Sword just isn't that good, even when you do get to use it properly. Spineshiver Blade will make you I7, but now you're Black Legion and everyone has to be a Veteran now.
Alternatively you can run the Power Fist/Lightning Claw combo and skimp on Marks altogether, and just run the FNP-Biker squad.

But, ultimately, no. There's no equivalent to the Bike Command Squad under the Chaos book. It's just not a thing that exists. If you want to run Chaos Bikes, then they're going to function as a shooty squad, just like all Bikes that aren't a Command Squad do. Or you can give them MoK for Rage, and make liberal use of Jinking since Shooting isn't what you want to be doing.

'Juggerlord'
Chaos Bikers (x6+); x2 Meltaguns, Power Axe, Gift, Melta Bombs, MoK, Wrath

...I guess.

bluntpencil

2014-12-17, 11:14 PM

Is there any way to fit Dante (representing Castellan Zargo), Sanguinary Guard and Death Company into an effective list?

I say this because Angels Encarmine, known for maxed out Death Company, have really cool alternative paint schemes for both SG and DC.

Narrative, yo.

Requizen

2014-12-17, 11:51 PM

But, ultimately, no. There's no equivalent to the Bike Command Squad under the Chaos book. It's just not a thing that exists. If you want to run Chaos Bikes, then they're going to function as a shooty squad, just like all Bikes that aren't a Command Squad do. Or you can give them MoK for Rage, and make liberal use of Jinking since Shooting isn't what you want to be doing.

'Juggerlord'
Chaos Bikers (x6+); x2 Meltaguns, Power Axe, Gift, Melta Bombs, MoK, Wrath

...I guess.

That's fair, it's good to hear it out loud (so to speak). Out of curiosity, can CSM Bikers even make a shooty squad? Looking at them, it looks like they'd just be 2 Meltas and maybe a Combi-Melta or -Plasma on the champion. It would be interesting if they could be a true shooty squad, but that doesn't seem like it would make them too scary enough to be worth taking in lieu of actual shooting squads.

Hm. Still considering CSM, as they can bring shooting attacks, but dunno, probably won't be for a while if it does occur.'

...And this is why. Necron leaks from Shield of Baal: Leviathan:

http://i.imgur.com/jFtZqL1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jybY8b6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tu5MdB4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KiuR7ip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OJNyLud.jpg

Quick thoughts:

Warlord Traits:
1) Eternal Warrior. Good.
2) Warlord's Melee weapons have Haywire. Not great, because Warscythes already do that.
3) Can choose to reroll failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear tests in a 12" bubble. That's never a bad thing, but not fantastic.
4) Adamantium Will. Psychic Defense for Necrons? Alright, not bad.
5) Hatred (which is passed to his unit). Great for a CCB Overlord. Less great for a Cryptek or Overlord hanging out with Warriors/Immortals, though not horrible.
6) It Will Not Die. On a CCB Overlord. Collect your opponent's tears.

3 always good ones, 1 pretty much only for CCB OL, 2 relatively moderate ones.

Relics:
The God Shackle
Aside from having a totally bitchin' name, this is for Crypteks only. Grant a C'Tan Shard in your detachment +1 to Strength and Toughness. T8 ignores S4 and moves S6 to wounding on 6s. That's pretty frickin great. "But Req, Shards are still garbage!" True, but this makes them less so. And, if you combine it with the Conclave of the Burning One Formation... well you'll see when you get there.

Edge of Eternity
Bad. Bad bad bad. Overlord only. For double the cost of a Warscythe, you get the same statline, except AP2 and Precision Strikes.

...Huh? They must be changing Warscythes in the next edition, because I see 0 reason to take this over a basic Warscythe as it stands right now.

Solar Thermasite
Always bring. Overlord or Cryptek. 25 points, gives your shooting and melee weapons (not attacks, so no bonus for fighting without a melee weapon) +1 Strength. That's pretty good by itself, since technically it extends to a CCB's weapons and even otherwise is pretty good on Staffs of Light or Eldritch Lances, not to mention it pushes Warscythes to S8 for that sweet insta-death on T4. But then, it allows you to reroll all saving throws of 1.

This should just be baked into the cost of a CCB Overlord, no one in their right mind will ever not take it.

Formations:
Conclave of the Burning One
Who is the Burning One? ...Probably a C'Tan Shard, I dunno yet, but this formation is awesome. A C'Tan Shard with 2 Crypteks, fielded as a single unit, even though you can't join Infantry to MCs. They must stay as one unit. For each Cryptek remaining alive, the Shard has +1 FNP. Remember the God Shackle? Remember how Crypteks can take that? Now that's a T8 Shard with FNP. If you were planning on having those Crypteks in your army anyway, it's only 10 more points from the regular C'Tan Shard to make him insanely more effective. I love this formation, but even with this Shards are pretty pricey and maybe not as effective as they need to be

The interesting thing is that these Crypteks are not part of a Royal Court. Can they be Harbingers? Can they have duplicate Wargear options if they are the same Harbinger? Who knows, 7e Codex will hopefully clear this up.

Zarathusa's Royal Decurion
The big Z (since I'm not typing out his name every time) is the Overlord of the Mephrit Dynasty. The Formation is an Overlord who is supposed to be him but is a generic Overlord you can kit out any which way, 1 Immortal squad, 2 Warrior Squads, 1 Ghost Ark, 1 Doom Scythe, 1 Praetorian squad, 1 Stalker, 1 Deathmark Squad, and 2 Wraith squads. So... not bad all around, what a moderate Necron army might look like except the Praetorians.

If you take this, the Overlord gets a suped-up version of Zahndrekh's power: every unit in the formation (except the vehicles) gets one of: Crusader, Counter Attack, Fearless, or Monster Hunters until the next turn. Though it's missing Tank Hunters, which was super useful from Zahndrekh. But still, making the entire formation Monster Hunters is very useful, and even giving everything Counter Attack when an Assault army is rolling in can be potentially tide-turning. Pretty good, if restrictive.

Anrakyr's Strategic Decurion
Anrakyr joins 1 Immortal Squad, 2 Warrior squads, 1 Ghost Ark, 1 Doom Scythe, and 1 Deathmark squad. Hm, this looks familiar... oh yeah, it's the above formation with the Wraiths, Stalker, and Praetorians stripped out. What do we get instead? Reroll on Seize the Initiative and reroll Reserves as long as Anrakyr is alive. That's not horrible. Anrakyr isn't the best Special Character in the current codex, but if he brought those rerolls he would be worth a second look. Since this is a more pared down Formation and has stuff you would reasonably expect to see in a Necron army, I'd venture to say it's a fairly solid Formation. Kudos on this one, it's one of the better "technically an entire army but just a formation instead" formations.

Unknown Name Formation
All 3 other formations. While "Big Z" is alive, his special rule applies to every non-vehicle in all 3 formations. That's fairly decent, if expensive. It's a big list, utilizing all but 1 FA and 1 HS slot in the standard CAD, but not a bad bonus.

Curiously, Anrakyr is the only special character named so far. Probably because he has the biggest role to play in this campaign, but I hope it doesn't mean we're going to lose most of the other ones.

Anyway, a fantastic relic with one situationally good one and one stinker, a decent Warlord table, some alright formations... so I guess I'm buying this book. Any Necron player should at least consider it at this point, given that this is likely to be our "supplement", at least for the time being. And there's that Monolith formation in the White Dwarf, so I'll be picking that up too.

Eldan

2014-12-18, 02:28 AM

Yeah, I saw a toxicrene in the plastic today and I had no idea how you would transport one safely. I don't suppose you could do something like magnetising the tentacles so they can be removed for transport?

No, that should work. All the tentacles on one side are one piece, so you'd only need two magnets.

The Patterner

2014-12-18, 05:43 AM

Well, one of the killiest models in the game is a Juggerlord. If he's got the Charge, he'll paste everything. Unfortunately, Mark of Khrone on regular Bikers is really, really weak. Rage is cool, but unlike Warp Talons, they don't have any good weapons.

But, ultimately, no. There's no equivalent to the Bike Command Squad under the Chaos book. It's just not a thing that exists. If you want to run Chaos Bikes, then they're going to function as a shooty squad, just like all Bikes that aren't a Command Squad do. Or you can give them MoK for Rage, and make liberal use of Jinking since Shooting isn't what you want to be doing.

'Juggerlord'
Chaos Bikers (x6+); x2 Meltaguns, Power Axe, Gift, Melta Bombs, MoK, Wrath

...I guess.

Question, if you want to play using Crimson slaughter, are Juggerlords still worth taking? I'm thinking daemonheart makes it thougher, but you lose a lot of killing power.

Cheesegear

2014-12-18, 06:04 AM

Is there any way to fit Dante (representing Castellan Zargo), Sanguinary Guard and Death Company into an effective list?

Sure, as long as you don't mind having two Detachments, since Sang Guard and DC vie for the same slots.

We know we want Dante.

(W) Commander Dante - 220 Points

That was easy. But, we need an HQ as well. Mephiston? Well, since he's not going to be our Warlord, he doesn't have Adamantium Will, and he doesn't have a Jump Pack, he doesn't have Telepathy, basically, we don't need him. So, let's go for the other good option.

Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs, Angel's Wing - 90 Points

Throwing the Priest and Dante into the same unit is just good planning. Get Dante FNP. Just do it. Now we need Troops.

Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points

Seems simple enough. Now we go for what we actually want.

Sanguinary Guard (x5); x3 Swords, Axe, x2 Infero Pistols, Power Fist - 210 Points
Sanguinary Guard (x7); x4 Swords, x2 Axes, x2 Inferno Pistols, Power Fist - 276 Points
Sanguinary Guard (x7); x4 Swords, x2 Axes, x2 Inferno Pistols, Power Fist - 276 Points

Dante and the Sanguinary Priest total to 7 for a perfect 'Deep Strike Circle', that's how that works. With all our Elite slots taken, we need a new Detachment if we want to field any Death Company, so let's start one of those.

Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs, Jump Pack - 80 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points

At 1532 Points, now. That's rough. However, since Sanguinary Guard don't naturally have FNP, we're going to want the SP in the SG unit, so, if we want to Deep Strike, they can be at 7 models. Since a Sanguinary Guard unit without FNP is basically useless, we can drop the third unit giving us a whole bunch more points to play with.

Sanguinary Guard (x7); x4 Swords, x2 Axes, x2 Inferno Pistols, Power Fist - 276 Points
-1 Sanguinary Guard

Now for our Objective grabbers, basically, these guys are going to be really, really expensive Tactical Marines.

Death Company Squad (x5); Boltguns, Power Fist, x2 Inferno Pistols, Jump Packs - 160 Points
Death Company Squad (x5); Boltguns, Power Fist, x2 Inferno Pistols, Jump Packs - 160 Points
Death Company Squad (x5); Boltguns, Power Fist, x2 Inferno Pistols, Jump Packs - 160 Points

1703 Points. Let's throw in two more Death Company to make one unit of 7 in case we want to Deep Strike that particular unit. Descent of Angels (Dante's Warlord Trait) only works in the Warlord's Detachment, so we can use the empty Elites slot we got by removing a Sanguinary Guard unit, and put the DC unit into the Primary Detachment. Just because we need it, let's swap a couple of Inferno Pistols for Hand Flamers for Cover busting, and using the spare points we get from that, we can add in a Drop Pod with Locator Beacon for zero Scatter.

Angels Encarmine
Blood Angels, CAD
Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs, Angel's Wing - 90 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points

Death Company Squad (x7); Boltguns, Power Fist, x2 Inferno Pistol & Chainswords, Jump Packs - 206 Points
Sanguinary Guard (x5); x3 Swords, Axe, x2 Infero Pistols, Power Fist - 210 Points
Sanguinary Guard (x6); x3 Swords, x2 Axes, x2 Inferno Pistols, Power Fist - 243 Points

(W) Commander Dante - 220 Points

Blood Angels, CAD
Sanguinary Priest; Melta Bombs, Jump Pack - 80 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Lascannon - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) + Drop Pod; Locator Beacon - 105 Points

Death Company Squad (x5); Boltguns, Power Fist, x2 Hand Flamer & Chainswords, Jump Packs - 150 Points
Death Company Squad (x5); Boltguns, Power Fist, x2 Hand Flamer & Chainswords, Jump Packs - 150 Points

Total: 1749 Points

I tried.

Voidhawk

2014-12-18, 08:14 AM

Necron leaks from Shield of Baal: Exterminatus

These Necron updates first thing to come along that makes my playgroup (and me in particular) want to use Formations in regular games. So, uh... how do you do that? I've read the formation rules in the book, but it's not particularly clear.

Is a formation made from units taken as part of a different Detachment (such as a CAD)? Or is the formation a Detachment of their own? I've often heard that they take the Allies slot?
If the units come from a CAD, do they benefit from Objective Secured? Do they count towards minimum requirements? Can a unit be in more than one formation?
If they're a Detachment of their own, can that Detachment be the Primary one?

Some brief brainstorming:
Conclave of The Burning One - 425pts
C'Tan Shard - Time's Arrow, Gaze of Death - 275 (Warlord)
Cryptek - Harbinger of Despair, Veil of Darkness, Nightmare Shroud - 70
Cryptek - Harbinger of Eternity, Chronometron, Timesplinter Cloak, God Shackle - 80

It's a Toughness 8 deathstar. It teleports into your face, and then never leaves. Roll IWND, Hatred, or Haywire for a warlord trait and laugh.
While the Chronometron Cryptek is alive the C'Tan won't die. And while the C'Tan is alive the Cryptek is Toughness 8, with a 3++.
Note that the Gaze of Death hits the crypteks but can't hurt them, as it's only Str 3.

This is certainly not an efficient use of points, but I couldn't resist buying everything.
But if you truly want the chrono-tek to live forever, you could also get the Solar Thermasite and let it reroll half it's failed saves.

Supreme Overlord Faceroller, of the Mephrit Dynasty - 345pts
Necron Overlord - Solar Thermasite, Warscythe, Weave, Phase Shifter, Res Orb, Phylactery, MSS, Tesseract Labyrinth, Barge (Tesla Cannon). (Warlord)

This guy is as tough as a brick and half as subtle. You just throw him at whatever you don't like, confident that he'll still be standing at the end.
2+/3++/4+Jink (Rerolling 1s), 4+ Reanimate, and can roll Hatred, Eternal Warrior or IWND to boot. Dear lord.

I've run the numbers on this guy versus Smashbane (neither with Warlord traits), and the results are disturbing: 5/8 times Faceroller wins, 3/8 times Smashbane wins, and 1/8 times it's a draw at the end of Game Turn 7 with them both still alive and kicking.
Mostly it hinges on who gets the charge, and if the Tesseract Labyrinth works.
Of course, he's also about 50pts more expensive than Smashbane. Still, an impressive showing.

Squark

2014-12-18, 08:25 AM

Voidhawk

2014-12-18, 08:47 AM

Formations are their own detachment. They are not part of a CAD or faction specific detachment and gain none of the benefits a unit from one of those detachments is. A formation can be the primary detachment.

Thanks! So, if I bring the White Dwarf "Mephritt Resurgence Division" (consisting of two Warrior squads, two Immortal Squads, and a Monolith) as a Secondary Detachment, then they take up no slots in the Primary Detachment. Meaning I have to bring two more Troop choices and a HQ to qualify to legally bring a CAD as my Primary.

I presume that Detachments use the Allies chart for interactions?
Can Royal Court members join squads from other detachments? The book says Battle brothers can benefit from each other's special rules, and the Necron errata doesn't help here.
How do Relics and other "One Per" items work? Is it one per Detachment, or one per Army? Could Imperial Fists allied with Ultramarines take the Shield Eternal twice for instance?
Can you bring a Detachment twice? Take an army consisting only of two Burning Conclaves for instance?

Vaz

2014-12-18, 10:06 AM

A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments. Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements.

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

Combined Arms detachment and Allied Detachments are available for any army, while other armies, like Blood Angels, or 30K have access to their own unique Force Organization Charts.

In regards to the list of relics and 1/per options, it depends on the wording used.

For example

Unique Models; Some models are noted as being Unique in their Army List Entry. Unique models include named characters and extraordinary units or vehicles, of which there is only one known example in the whole galaxy. Because of this, you can only ever include one of each Unique model in an army.

or

Relics of the Fang; Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army.

The limitation on these is 1/army. While there's no actual definition of army within the BRB, there really doesn't need to be, as the army is your collective model count.

While I cannot think of one off the top of my head, if there was a theoretical "One of each of these relics of the flying spaghetti monsters may be taken per detachment", then that would be limited by detachment.

A Formation is simply another kind of detachment, using a specified unit choice, with some potential restrictions in favour of taking particular units with some special rules. The rules apply to the entire army in regards to Battle Brothers, but note that some (most) rules specify that they work only with the Formation. As ever, the devil is in the details for each.

Wext

2014-12-18, 10:24 AM

If you want a Juggerlord, why not go with Chaos Spawn? They're beast so they should be able to keep up, are a beat stick in melee, and are even better if I remember better in Crimson Slaughter which you said you were considering.

Vaz

2014-12-18, 11:30 AM

And can Look Out Sir.

Requizen

2014-12-18, 12:09 PM

Spawn are tougher than Warp Talons, but don't have any sort of weapons and rely on randomness for their number of attacks. Rage is great for Warp Talons because it gives their AP3 Shred weapons another attack on the charge, but just more attacks on a Spawn doesn't help them ignore 3+.

So I guess it depends on if you think the Juggerlord's retinue is there to be more killy or there to stay alive/tank shots for him.

DaedalusMkV

2014-12-18, 01:02 PM

So I guess it depends on if you think the Juggerlord's retinue is there to be more killy or there to stay alive/tank shots for him.

If it's wearing 2+ or 3+ armour and isn't packing four or five Storm Shields, the Juggerlord basically killed it all on his own anyways. Essentially, anything that a Juggerlord doesn't slice to fine pieces is probably not terribly concerned with how much AP your bodyguard's attacks have.

I've been running a Blind Fury lord since the new CSM book came out. Using Warp Talons as his bodyguard is unnecessary to the point of overkill when the Lord himself packs enough power to kill seven Tactical Marines at I5. I personally favor Bikers as a bodyguard because I prefer their aesthetic, but Spawn are definitely an excellent choice for your fast-moving ablative Wounds. I would rather have much tougher 20-point Unmarked Bikers than 34-point Khorne Warp Talons to protect my Lord (I can take ten Bikers without breaking the bank, easily. Warp Talons not so much), and if you've got to pay 30+ points per model, you might as well do it with the guys who have 3 Wounds each and T5. Hell, in the worst case I can still take two Raptors for the points cost of a single Warp Talon. Forget AP3, I'd rather have the Melta Guns and twice as many bodies to make sure I get to melee.

Squark

2014-12-18, 01:07 PM

Thanks! So, if I bring the White Dwarf "Mephritt Resurgence Division" (consisting of two Warrior squads, two Immortal Squads, and a Monolith) as a Secondary Detachment, then they take up no slots in the Primary Detachment. Meaning I have to bring two more Troop choices and a HQ to qualify to legally bring a CAD as my Primary.

I presume that Detachments use the Allies chart for interactions?
Can Royal Court members join squads from other detachments? The book says Battle brothers can benefit from each other's special rules, and the Necron errata doesn't help here.
How do Relics and other "One Per" items work? Is it one per Detachment, or one per Army? Could Imperial Fists allied with Ultramarines take the Shield Eternal twice for instance?
Can you bring a Detachment twice? Take an army consisting only of two Burning Conclaves for instance?

1) Yes. So, if I have a Space Wolves CAD and an Astrates Storm Wing formation, the fliers are treated as allies, and my Rune Priest could buff them.
2) Not entirely clear, but I'd lean toward no.
3) One per Army, generally.
4) Regular detachments can be spammed to your heart's desire. Some formations are more limited due to requiring Unique Characters, but most can be duplicated. One Tyranid formation requires you two have three of a certain smaller formation, actually. You could theoretically have an army made up of nothing but donclaves of the burning one, but you'd get a lot of dirty looks, and the Shards would each need to be different iirc.

Requizen

2014-12-18, 01:28 PM

If it's wearing 2+ or 3+ armour and isn't packing four or five Storm Shields, the Juggerlord basically killed it all on his own anyways. Essentially, anything that a Juggerlord doesn't slice to fine pieces is probably not terribly concerned with how much AP your bodyguard's attacks have.

I've been running a Blind Fury lord since the new CSM book came out. Using Warp Talons as his bodyguard is unnecessary to the point of overkill when the Lord himself packs enough power to kill seven Tactical Marines at I5. I personally favor Bikers as a bodyguard because I prefer their aesthetic, but Spawn are definitely an excellent choice for your fast-moving ablative Wounds. I would rather have much tougher 20-point Unmarked Bikers than 34-point Khorne Warp Talons to protect my Lord (I can take ten Bikers without breaking the bank, easily. Warp Talons not so much), and if you've got to pay 30+ points per model, you might as well do it with the guys who have 3 Wounds each and T5. Hell, in the worst case I can still take two Raptors for the points cost of a single Warp Talon. Forget AP3, I'd rather have the Melta Guns and twice as many bodies to make sure I get to melee.

When you run him with Bikers, do you upgrade them at all with Meltas/Plasmas, or leave them cheap and basic?

Additionally, how do mixed unit types work in this situation? The bikes have Turbo Boost, but the Juggerlord has Run. Do you roll his run and they move with him, or can they not move in the shooting Phase at all? Or do you just shoot and not worry about it?

Requizen

2014-12-18, 01:33 PM

1) Yes. So, if I have a Space Wolves CAD and an Astrates Storm Wing formation, the fliers are treated as allies, and my Rune Priest could buff them.
2) Not entirely clear, but I'd lean toward no.
3) One per Army, generally.
4) Regular detachments can be spammed to your heart's desire. Some formations are more limited due to requiring Unique Characters, but most can be duplicated. One Tyranid formation requires you two have three of a certain smaller formation, actually. You could theoretically have an army made up of nothing but donclaves of the burning one, but you'd get a lot of dirty looks, and the Shards would each need to be different iirc.

Relics are pretty much universally once per army, but I don't see that distinction in the scans so far. I would assume it works that way.

Royal Court members are cut and dry. The FAQ says to replace all instances of "army" with "Detachment" in the Royal Court section. So Lords/Crypteks cannot join Necrons from other Detachments/Formations.

Though expect to see Royal Courts get an overhaul in the new codex. Given that I have seen no mention of Lords so far and the Crypteks in the Conclave of the Burning One don't belong to a Royal Court, I don't expect to see it survive the edition as is.

Voidhawk

2014-12-18, 02:19 PM

Royal Court members are cut and dry. The FAQ says to replace all instances of "army" with "Detachment" in the Royal Court section. So Lords/Crypteks cannot join Necrons from other Detachments/Formations.

Unfortuately, that's not what the errata does.

It changes the first paragraph to confirm you get one Royal court per Overlord per Detachment. So, if you have two CADs each with an Overlord you get one Royal Court each, in each Detachment.
But the second paragraph remains untouched:

Before the battle, each member of the Royal Court has the option of being split off from his unit and assigned to lead a different unit from the following list: Necron Warriors, Necron Immortals, Lychguards, or Deathmarks. Only one member of the Royal Court can join each unit in this manner. Otherwise, they remain part of the Royal Court.

I'm not trying to be pedantic (though I worry I may be coming across as such). How do units of sargeant-level-characters work in other codices? Preists, Enginseers those kind of ones? Are they all Independent characters, or do they have a similar method of being assigned?

I feel this question would be most easily solved if they just made Crypteks into Independent Characters in the next codex.

LeSwordfish

2014-12-18, 02:32 PM

Primaris Psykers and Enginseers both became Non-Slot HQ units and independent characters. Wolf Guard are the most direct comparison, but I don't know what happened to them. I'd be surprised if they haven't just made Crypteks ICs.

Requizen

2014-12-18, 02:39 PM

This is the awkward time, where we have a supplement and formations but they are designed for the new Codex that isn't out yet. GW please, let it be soon.

I guess it's not too bad since I won't be playing any games during Christmas week, but still kinda infuriating :smallannoyed:

Vaz

2014-12-18, 02:47 PM

Depending on the wording on the entry within the Cron list for each individual model/unit which have access to the Relics, there's actually no verbiage within the relic page for 1 per army.

Voidhawk

2014-12-18, 03:19 PM

Depending on the wording on the entry within the Cron list for each individual model/unit which have access to the Relics, there's actually no verbiage within the relic page for 1 per army.

It is rather comical: the spoilers don't say you can only have one, but equally they don't give you the ability to buy any at all! Until the book is actually released we're going on the presumptions that: 1) Any Overlord or Cryptek from a Mephrit Detachment (including Formations) can buy Relics, and 2) only one of each per Army.

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 01:04 AM

Finished the Blood Angels' Guide. I'm actually quite impressed with the book, but I was impressed with Grey Knights, so what do I know? Should be posted tomorrow when I get a (proper) look at all the new Formations and whether or not tomorrow's White Dwarf will contain another Formation or just a reprint of one of the Formations presented in Exterminatus.

Vaz

2014-12-19, 01:11 AM

Yay Editing!

On another note, been playing around with a Blood Angels 1K list;

Baal Strike Force;

Sanguinary Priest = 60

Death Company, x10, Bolters = 200
Death Company, x10, Bolters = 200
Death Company, x9, Bolters = 180

Tactical Squad, Lascannon, Razorback, TLLascannon = 90+85
Tactical Squad, Lascannon, Combi-Grav = 100

Aegis Defense Line, Icarus Lascannon = 85

29 Relentless Bolters on a 4 S5 I5 Charging base (+8 Bolters on Tacs), 4 Lascannons (1x TL, 1x Skyfire), Combi-Grav to kill a couple of Terminators, and a Sang Priest to keep a Tac Squad alive.

bluntpencil

2014-12-19, 01:27 AM

The Angel's Fury Spearhead looks for an awesome way to break things, and break them hard. Charging off Deep Strike, combined with Angel's Wing to dodge Interceptor, and you can tear anything and everything a new one. Melee is a thing again, screw your shooting!

An idea for a list (I <3 Angels Encarmine), Forging a Narrative whilst still kicking ass. Some of the options aren't 100% optimal, but it should be pretty good.

Inquisitor Ditzy is stranded behind enemy lines (again) with her trusty spiritual advisor and bodyguards, and needs help!

Inquisitor: 55
Psyker, Force Sword

Henchmen: 85
Priest, 4 Crusaders

Known for responding to absolutely any call for aid, the Angels Encarmine are quick to come to the rescue (again).

Dante Castellan Zargo: 220

Sanguinary Priest: 100
Angel's Wing
Lightning Claw

Sanguinary Guard: 190
Chapter Banner

Scouts: 55
Scouts: 55

Tactical Squad: 160
Meltagun, Heavy Flamer
Teleport Homer

Tactical Squad: 160
Meltagun, Heavy Flamer
Teleport Homer

Tactical Squad: 155
Flamer, Heavy Flamer
Teleport Homer

Stormraven: 205
Lascannon
Multimelta
Extra Armour

Stormraven: 205
Lascannon
Multimelta
Extra Armour

Stormraven: 205
Lascannon
Multimelta
Extra Armour

The idea is for the Henchmen and Inquisitor to start on the board, with the Scouts hiding in cover, hoping to not get killed off on Turn One before help can arrive (fitting the narrative).

The Scouts were obviously first to respond and confirm the presence of the Inquisitor.

The Inquisitor uses Psychic Communion on Turn One (fitting the narrative) to bring on the aerial spearhead.

Then, in following turns, Zargo (the Warlord), drops in with his Sanguinary Guard, super precisely, dodging interceptor fire like a boss, and kicks dudes in the face, with bonus initiative from Baal Strike Force. The Tacticals from the Spearhead can handle objectives.

I think there's plenty anti-horde (3 heavy flamers, lots of bolters), plenty anti-armour and anti-air (3 Stormravens), decent anti-MEQ and TEQ (Sanguinary Guard, attacking at I5, Dante attacking at I7, from Deep Strike). It's very aggressive, and aerial, which totally fits the theme, too.

Issues include: the Crusaders are kinda useless, but they'll stay alive, probably, on the first turn, to prevent tabling.

The Scouts are just filling out Troops choices, and aren't ObSec. They're basically just there to get the SG +1 I on the charge.

The SG unit is rather small, but still pretty damn effective.

I'd prefer to somehow squeeze Valour's Edge and a Pistol onto the Sanguinary Priest, instead of a Lightning Claw, but +1 point for a pistol screws with the numbers, and, without a pistol, a specialist weapon makes sense. I could chuck out the meltaguns, for flamers, to get it, or remove a Crusader, perhaps?

To fit Angels Encarmine closer, the SG and SPriest could be swapped for Death Company and a Chaplain, but I really like the white-armoured SG. This is basically just as effective, as they won't be getting shot too much if played right. The lack of 2+ is likely offset by the high I on the charge, and the charging from Deep Strike.

Remove Sanguinary Priest and Sanguinary Guard.

Add:
Chaplain: 115
Angel's Wing

Death Company: 175
Jump Packs
4 Power Swords

DaedalusMkV

2014-12-19, 02:44 AM

When you run him with Bikers, do you upgrade them at all with Meltas/Plasmas, or leave them cheap and basic?

Additionally, how do mixed unit types work in this situation? The bikes have Turbo Boost, but the Juggerlord has Run. Do you roll his run and they move with him, or can they not move in the shooting Phase at all? Or do you just shoot and not worry about it?

Two Melta Guns for the squad, for the obvious reasons. Plasma is also fine, but I prefer to pack as many meltas as possible into my fast units to overcome Chaos' distinct lack of long-ranged anti-tank options. I also usually give my Biker Champion a Power Lance, more for flavour reasons than because it's actually necessary, although it does come in handy on occasion. A Meltabomb on either the Champion, the Chaos Lord or both depending on how many points I have left after list-writing rounds the whole thing off. No need for any upgrades at all on the generic Bikers; they're pretty much there to absorb damage and put out a decent number of AP- Wounds to help the Chaos Lord and Champion mulch through hordes.

And yeah, models with Run can run at the same time the Bikers Turbo-boost, so I usually Run the Lord first and then Boost the Bikers to maintain unit coherency and a formation that puts as many Bikers as possible between the Axe Lord and the enemy. I usually prefer actually shooting with the unit to Turbo-boosting, since I've got eight Twin-linked Bolters in there and the extra movement is rarely if ever necessary to assure the turn 2 assault, but when I do need the extra distance it works just like you'd expect it to.

Frankly, the unit works very well. 10 Chaos Bikers beats everything except dedicated elite melee squads in close combat, and the Chaos Lord generally counters that sort of unit very well on his own. Outside of getting killed by overwhelming amounts of shooting the only things I usually have to worry about are the top-end MCs like Wraithknights, Imperial Knights and high-end close combat monsters like Abaddon and Draigo. None of which you can ever expect to beat in melee without having one of the above anyways, so it's not like you can do anything about it.

Drasius

2014-12-19, 09:01 AM

I saw a Raptor champion beat a guard sarge to death yesterday and reminded the new chaos player to roll on the boon table.

"What's the point, they never get anything good"
"You never know, even if he turns into a spawn, you've got better stats than you've got now. Besides, one day I want to see someone actually turn into a Daemon Prince!"
Everyone else: "Yeah, that'd be so cool, but it never happens"
First Die = 6
Collective breath held.
Second Die = 5
Boom, daemon prince.

Finally, I saw it actually happen with my own eyes.

Turalisj

2014-12-19, 10:23 AM

Would Blood Angels be worth getting into as a second army?

bluntpencil

2014-12-19, 11:16 AM

Wow...

I just realised that, with the Angel's Fury Spearhead, you can get off lots of Turn One charges, because Blood Angels Drop Pods allow for charging from them, assuming you can charge from Deep Strike (which the Spearhead allows!).

With some Reserve manipulation (any ideas, apart from an Inquisitor hiding alone in the woods, casting Psychic Communion?), you can combine a Baal Strike Force (Red Thirst ahoy) with your ObSec Spearhead.

You just need a way to make certain the Stormravens are coming in first... would a Skyshield Pad prevent auto-tabling here?

Even if they don't, you drop the more expendable Drop Pods somewhere where their cargo can hide, whilst the Death Company or whatever come in next turn.

Actually, nah, It wouldn't work, unless you went second, and they moved forward fast, since you come on from your own edge. Then again, Drop Pod, within 12" of a forward placed Skyshield, yeah... could possibly work.

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 11:34 AM

"What's the point, they never get anything good"

It's not optional. :smallamused:

bluntpencil

2014-12-19, 11:35 AM

Can you Charge out of a Vehicle? Because there's actually two reasons you can't Charge out of a Drop Pod.

Blood Angels Pods are Open-Topped, so yes.

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 11:39 AM

Then again, Drop Pod, within 12" of a forward placed Skyshield, yeah... could possibly work.

I think it would work once. Once your opponent knows what you're doing, they can take steps to prevent it. That, or Tau are going to come back in a big, big way.

bluntpencil

2014-12-19, 11:45 AM

I think it would work once. Once your opponent knows what you're doing, they can take steps to prevent it. That, or Tau are going to come back in a big, big way.

A good stunt to pull at the next tournament, though! :P Death Company tearing it up in melee in the first turn?

It'll be difficult to prevent, as you could place the Skyshield smack in the middle of the table, too.

Edit:

Of course, this is theoryhammer. It's entirely possible to get first turn charges using Skyshield cheese, with or without BA Drop Pods. Skyshields are lame.

Yaktan

2014-12-19, 11:49 AM

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 12:01 PM

It'll be difficult to prevent, as you could place the Skyshield smack in the middle of the table, too.

Except it's 7th Ed., so no you can't. Fortifications can only be placed in your DZ - pg 130.

Requizen

2014-12-19, 12:09 PM

Two Melta Guns for the squad, for the obvious reasons. Plasma is also fine, but I prefer to pack as many meltas as possible into my fast units to overcome Chaos' distinct lack of long-ranged anti-tank options. I also usually give my Biker Champion a Power Lance, more for flavour reasons than because it's actually necessary, although it does come in handy on occasion. A Meltabomb on either the Champion, the Chaos Lord or both depending on how many points I have left after list-writing rounds the whole thing off. No need for any upgrades at all on the generic Bikers; they're pretty much there to absorb damage and put out a decent number of AP- Wounds to help the Chaos Lord and Champion mulch through hordes.

And yeah, models with Run can run at the same time the Bikers Turbo-boost, so I usually Run the Lord first and then Boost the Bikers to maintain unit coherency and a formation that puts as many Bikers as possible between the Axe Lord and the enemy. I usually prefer actually shooting with the unit to Turbo-boosting, since I've got eight Twin-linked Bolters in there and the extra movement is rarely if ever necessary to assure the turn 2 assault, but when I do need the extra distance it works just like you'd expect it to.

Frankly, the unit works very well. 10 Chaos Bikers beats everything except dedicated elite melee squads in close combat, and the Chaos Lord generally counters that sort of unit very well on his own. Outside of getting killed by overwhelming amounts of shooting the only things I usually have to worry about are the top-end MCs like Wraithknights, Imperial Knights and high-end close combat monsters like Abaddon and Draigo. None of which you can ever expect to beat in melee without having one of the above anyways, so it's not like you can do anything about it.

See, this would be cool to me, both aesthetically and it sounds pretty workable on the table. Obviously they'd have to be Khorne or unmarked, which kinda sucks since Slaanesh and Nurgle are better overall, but still a nifty unit to throw down. Relatively tough even without outside buffs (though Invisibility and what not helps), and ded killy.

In other Chaos bits, I've been looking at Blight Drones on Forgeworld. Nice models, moderate points costs, shame about the price (~$62 per), maybe I could kitbash something using Plague Drones and other bits.

bluntpencil

2014-12-19, 12:10 PM

Except it's 7th Ed., so no you can't. Fortifications can only be placed in your DZ - pg 130.

Good shout.

In that case, it's not so terrible, but still doable. There's cheese you can pull off by, for example, taking a Fast Attack Drop Pod, loaded with characters with Jump Packs and Angel's Wing preventing Interceptor, leaping across the board to take things out.

Dante, backed up by a Chaplain and a Priest, perhaps, leaping from a Drop Pod, with Angel's Wing negating Interceptor, might be hilarious, at least for the first few times. It may be possible to select Lemartes as the Chaplain, as Dante and the Priest would be joining him, not the other way around. He would also fill up the minimum Elite slot.

Okay, so when the Jump Pack Heroes leap from their pod, they need to stay within 6", but hey... they're right up in the enemy's face, ready to pounce.

Edit: Actually, you'd need two Skyshields, which would necessitate 3 Detachments, and the accompanying hassle of filling out slots. All good in theory, and possible, but probably not worth the effort.

Edit edit: Can Lemartes be joined by other Independent Characters, as opposed to him joining them, to form a pretty hard unit? For the most part, it's because it's cheaper than tooling up a whole Death Company.

Requizen

2014-12-19, 12:15 PM

So, I went to go look at the Blood angles models on the GW site, and I noticed that the marine on the front of the blood angles book is eerily similar to the crisis suit on the tau book--Same pose, down to how they have their heads and legs, plus both have a glowing blue weapon pointed to the reader's lower left.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/60030101025_BACodex01.jpghttp://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/60030113004_TauEmpireBookNEW01.jpg

Haha oh wow.

Yaktan

2014-12-19, 04:33 PM

Yeah, I play Tau, so I am familiar with the tau book, which is why I noticed that.

Now I wonder if this is a sign that some blood angles should join the Greater Good. I have thought off and on about adding in some sort of fun meele unit. What do they need to charge from deepstrike? Is it a special formation ability or what?

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 04:43 PM

In that case, it's not so terrible, but still doable.

It's really not.

There's cheese you can pull off by, for example, taking a Fast Attack Drop Pod, loaded with characters with Jump Packs and Angel's Wing preventing Interceptor

Wrong. Unless otherwise noted, only Infantry can Embark on Transports. A Drop Pod does not have the ability to carry Jump Infantry.

Turalisj

2014-12-19, 04:46 PM

Would Blood Angels be worth getting into as a second army?

Bumping this as I plan to possibly split the Deathstorm Box with a friend who plays Nids on Sunday....

Requizen

2014-12-19, 04:53 PM

So the Daemon guide is a bit out of date. That's fine, I'm not looking for a full update, but I'm wondering: What do you think of Burning Chariots of Tzeentch now? In the guide, it says that they're not worth using because the rider can't fire the Heavy weapons while the Chariot moves, but now that the rider is Relentless and can fire his weapons off of the back of the Chariot at full BS (both of which are very good), would it be worth taking up a HS slot now?

I'm eyeing one up currently to chop up the bits and make 3 Heralds of Tzeentch on Discs (3 for the price of 1!), but after looking at the rules, I might get another one just to actually be a Chariot. Sure, 10/10/10 3HP isn't exactly survivable, but it's a fast fire platform for only 100pts that you can even throw Grimoire or Invisibility on.

Squark

2014-12-19, 05:10 PM

Bumping this as I plan to possibly split the Deathstorm Box with a friend who plays Nids on Sunday....

Do you like their Aesthetic? Do you like a fast assault army? If so, they're not a bad idea. Deathstorm, however, is... Awkward. You get a unit of Death Company and a DC dred you can use as troops if you field them exactly as the deathstorm dataslates say (But only one of each in an army), but Blood Angels have no real use for Shooty terminators, and the Captain's only good element is his garunteed warlord trait.

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 05:10 PM

Bumping this as I plan to possibly split the Deathstorm Box with a friend who plays Nids on Sunday.

If your first army is Necrons, you're slightly better off with Chaos Marines or Tau, since being Allies of Convenience allows you to use your models alongside your Necrons while you build up that side of your collection. Otherwise, sure, there's nothing wrong with Blood Angels, except that Deathstorm only contains a decent Death Company unit and Dreadnought (which are both excellent because they're Troops). The Terminators are a waste, and Karlean only makes real sense once you start throwing around some of the Formations.
See if you can pick up this week's White Dwarf.

So the Daemon guide is a bit out of date.

It is. That's why its under the heading its under which lists it as out of date.

but now that the rider is Relentless and can fire his weapons off of the back of the Chariot at full BS (both of which are very good), would it be worth taking up a HS slot now?

No. Because in 7th Ed., Daemon Princes are even better than they were, only needing one Grouding check per turn and Mastery Levels, also the Chariots are not Necron Chariots. AV10 is really, really bad, and the rider isn't carrying a Warscythe, and a Burning Chariot can't make Sweep Attacks which can hit Invisible unit. Then realise that the Chariot can Torrent, or shoot an 18" weapon, its range is terrible, it might get one shot off during a game, then its going to die. If you want a Burning Chariot, just find the 50 points or so that you need to bring a Soul Grinder instead.

Saw that the 'Bolt' has D3 shots, that actually might work sometimes. But anytime it only shoots one shot, you've wasted ~100 points.

but it's a fast fire platform for only 100pts that you can even throw Grimoire or Invisibility on.

Wouldn't you rather throw that same Invisibility or Grimoire on anything else!?

Turalisj

2014-12-19, 05:31 PM

Do you like their Aesthetic? Do you like a fast assault army? If so, they're not a bad idea. Deathstorm, however, is... Awkward. You get a unit of Death Company and a DC dred you can use as troops if you field them exactly as the deathstorm dataslates say (But only one of each in an army), but Blood Angels have no real use for Shooty terminators, and the Captain's only good element is his garunteed warlord trait.

I like the Aesthetic, yeah. Fast assault is useful when we have lots of Nids, Guardsmen, and Orks in the FLGS's meta.

Requizen

2014-12-19, 05:32 PM

It is. That's why its under the heading its under which lists it as out of date.

No. Because in 7th Ed., Daemon Princes are even better than they were, only needing one Grouding check per turn and Mastery Levels, also the Chariots are not Necron Chariots. AV10 is really, really bad, and the rider isn't carrying a Warscythe, and a Burning Chariot can't make Sweep Attacks which can hit Invisible unit. Then realise that the Chariot can Torrent, or shoot an 18" weapon, its range is terrible, it might get one shot off during a game, then its going to die. If you want a Burning Chariot, just find the 50 points or so that you need to bring a Soul Grinder instead.

Obviously the comparison to Soul Grinders has to be made. But, for a much smaller footprint that moves twice as fast and costs 2/3 (or fewer, depending on weapons/god) of the points, I don't think the tradeoff is completely unfavorable. Clearing blobs has been a problem for me, at the moment all I have for that is Psychic Scream and Nurgle's Primaris power. The Soul Grinder has a couple options for it, but then you're paying 20-30 points and have to get within range at his 6" movement. The mobility of the Chariot is a 12" move and then a S5 AP3 torrent weapon, which is going to rip up anything not wearing Terminator Armor, and that's baseline.

Wouldn't you rather throw that same Invisibility or Grimoire on anything else!?

Well, it depends. If my Daemon Princes have to Swoop at all, then there's very little point in throwing Invisibility on them unless there's huge amounts of Skyfire on the table (which there often isn't, maybe a Sky Ray or another flyer or two at most). If my Nurgle Daemons (which is all of them at the moment) are in cover, the Grimoire is redundant against everything but Ignores Cover and close combat.

Once I have my Screamerstar (going to be buying 6-9 off a friend and converting some Heralds as I mentioned), then I suppose they'd be a much better target for either/both, true. I was mostly just wondering how much it had changed since the writing of the guide, and if it was a consideration.

Requizen

2014-12-19, 06:19 PM

Daemon psychic generation is confusing. My Daemon Prince rolls 3 times on Biomancy, so he gets Smite as well. He's Nurgle, so he gets Stream of Corruption. Does he get Smite? Stream of Corruption isn't "generated", so it shouldn't count as negating Psychic Focus, right? But then, there's a line that says that they lose regular Psychic Focus if they gain a Psychic power not from the discipline during the game, so...

Bleh. Unclear rules. I've been running it that they get both Primaris Powers, but it's really not clear in any way.

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 06:36 PM

Daemon psychic generation is confusing.

Chaos Psykers get Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus, because the rule Chaos Psychic Focus doesn't contain the verb 'generate'. If you've generated all your Powers from the same place (Generating Psychic Powers), you get Psychic Focus. Chaos Psychic Focus doesn't 'generate' anything, and since you get your Powers before the game begins - not during - you never lose Psychic Focus.

I think that's the argument. Point is, Chaos Psykers are good. Whether its because they have Spell Familiars, the Daemon special rule, or just knowing extra Powers, they're really good. The only problem is Marked Chaos Sorcerers who must make a 'roll' on their God's table, Chaos Psychic Focus isn't a 'roll' and therefore doesn't count.

Requizen

2014-12-19, 07:43 PM

See, that's what I assumed, but people will just try to argue anything I guess.

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 08:43 PM

Shield of Baal: Exterminatus

Blood Angels, Archangels Detachments
It's not clear if you can still take Relics of Baal from the 'Core' book. But, units chosen from the Archangel Detachments may have the following;

Banner of the Archangel Host: Instead of carrying a Company Standard, a Terminator Assault Squad can take this. It's a Company Standard, that also gives the unit Preferred Enemy. If you're a Blood Angels player and aren't spamming Fearless Sanguinary Guard or Death Company, then sure, the Company Standard is useful, then for the cost of an additional Power Fist, you give your entire Assault Terminator unit Preferred Enemy. Gives Assault Terminators a reason to be taken, but you'll have to run an Archangel Detachment, so, yeah. Don't have Exterminatus? Then you probably don't need Assault Terminators.

Archangel's Edge: For 5 Points, upgrade your Terminator Sergeant's Power Sword to the Edge. Gain an ability to Instant Death vs. Monstrous Creatures. Unfortunately, like other things similar to this, it's not Rending, so a '6' doesn't automatically Wound. Fortunately, Blood Angels have Furious Charge, so maybe you'll be S5. But, if you're fighting a Wraithknight, you know your Sergeant is backed by an entire unit of Power Fists, right? Whatever. It's five points.

Executioner's Hood: Immunity to Shadow in the Warp. As if that mattered.

Warlord Traits
1. Fearless is good
2. Counter-Attack is okay.
3. Re-roll To Hit in Challenges. Meh.
4. Objective Secured. YEEESSS.
5. Be a Company Standard. Lame.
6. Preferred Enemy is okay.

So friggin' good. In 6th Ed., the Personal Traits was the best table because 'Scoring' was the most powerful Trait in the game. Objective Secured, is 7th Ed.'s version of that, and it's just as powerful. However, Archangel Detachments don't have Objective Secured, so, when you consider it, it's just really good, but not game breakingly so.

Archangels Strike Force: 1-2 HQ, 2-14 Elites. That's it. All your HQs must be in Terminator Armour, and then you get Sternguard, Terminators, Vanguard and Furiosos. You can re-roll Reserves for models with the Deep Strike special, however, these models don't actually have to arrive via Deep Strike (RAW is Law). So, Jump Infantry and Terminators who have the Deep Strike rule, can still walk onto the board, if they so wish. But, I mean, if you are Deep Striking, you only Scatter 1D6. Your Warlord can re-roll on the Archangel Traits.

Archangels Orbital Intervention Force Formation: 3 Terminator Squads (any combination), must Deep Strike. Can Shoot and Run on the same turn they arrive. Yawn.

Archangels Sanguine Wing Formation: 2 Vanguard Squads (must have Jump Packs), 1 Sternguard squad, 1 Stormraven. Vanguard may take Power Weapons for free, Sternguard may take Combi-Weapons for free. This Formation is b0rked, and you should absolutely use it.

Archangels Demi-Company Formation: Terminator Captain (or Karlean) or Chaplain, 2 Furiosos and 5 squads from the Archangel force. Don't even need 10 models. The most annoying part about this Formation is that Karlean's Warlord Trait goes to waste. For your trouble, gain Stubborn. Not great.

The Archangels Formation: Blood Angels' 1st Company. Start rolling Reserves from Turn 1.

Blooded Demi-Company: Half a Battle Company. Gain +1 Initiative when you Charge. What the Hell is this Formation doing in a Supplement about the 1st Company!? :smallyuk:

Strike Force Mortalis: A whole bunch of Death Company with Rampage-lite and Crusader.

Dante's Avenging Host: Dante, Mephiston, Librarian, Sanguinary Priest, Sanguinary Guard, Blooded Demi-Company and a trio of Stormravens. All non-Vehicle units have Objective Secured. Very solid, though closely pushes 2500 Points. I guess the 1st Company alone isn't good enough. :smallmad:

Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers Detachments
Again, it's unclear if Flesh Tearer Detachments can still take Relics of Baal, and Flesh Tearer Relics at the same time.

Bones of Baelsor: Dreadnought (any type). Extra armour. Certain Tyranid weapons can only ever cause Glancing Hits.
Slayer's Wrath: HQ models only. Poisoned Boltgun.
Shield of Cretacia: HQ models only. Non-Terminator only. Attacks against the model lose the Poisoned special rule if they have it. SPACE AUSTRALIA! Let's go wrestle a Tyranid wearing nothing but a shirt and shorts, we don't need Terminator Armour! CRETACIA!!!

Warlord Traits
1. Hatred isn't bad.
2. Rampage is.
3. The unit gains Hammer of Wrath, decent.
4. Crusader is lame
5. The unit gains Rage. Awesome.
6. FNP

Nowhere near as good as the Archangel table.

Flesh Tearers Strike Force: 1-6 Fast. Everything else per CAD. If you roll 10 or more for Charge distance, gain Rage. Orks can suck it. But you lose Objective Secured. Well, if you want to spam Assault Squads, and are for some reason have limited Detachments, Flesh Tearers give you a bunch of Fast slots. Or, perhaps better, you can take a ton of Bike squads under the Blood Angel 'dex and give them FNP using Priests.

FT Vanguard Strike Force Formation: 3 Tacticals, Assault, Vanguard, Furioso. +1I when Charging, ignore penalties for disordered Charges. Neat.
Lysos Relief Force: Gabriel and friends. A 'Collector's Unit' that you should only ever have if you plan on playing the Narrative for Exterminatus totally straight (which I plan to do).
Defenders of the Cathedrum: Ditto. At least this Formation has Counter-Attack.

Strike Force Razorwind: LRF and DotC. Gabriel Seth has a Fearless aura.

Amazing. Such a good book. If you care about Blood Angels at all, buy this book in a month when the soft-cover comes out. If you care about Flesh Tearers (AUSTRALIA, IN SPACE!!!), you should really be buying your White Dwarfs.

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-19, 08:53 PM

Blooded Demi-Company: Half a Battle Company. Gain +1 Initiative when you Charge. What the Hell is this Formation doing in a Supplement about the 1st Company!? :smallyuk:
The book is advertised as containing supplements for the First and Second Companies, so my guess is that it actually isn't doing anything in a supplement about the First Company. :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 09:51 PM

The book is advertised as containing supplements for the First and Second Companies

Advertised, sure. But when you put everything under the heading of The Archangels, that's the 1st. :smallwink:

Drasius

2014-12-19, 10:28 PM

Archangels Sanguine Wing Formation: 2 Vanguard Squads (must have Jump Packs), 1 Sternguard squad, 1 Stormraven. Vanguard may take Power Weapons for free, Sternguard may take Combi-Weapons for free. This Formation is b0rked, and you should absolutely use it.

o_0

So, assuming max squads (why wouldn't you?), that's 905 points (Sternguard can still take a pod, right?), but you also get 400 points of upgrades for free. VV's just got good. Man, I've been trying to work some VV's into a fast response SM force but could never justify the cost since they need power weapons to be decent. Now? Holy balls! Especially if you add a pair of Sang. Priests with jump packs for 75 each.

Did Sternguard really need to get any better?

I'm not sure why they would do this though, since they've been toning down the cocides and the last half a dozen have been reasonably balanced. This? This breaks lots of stuff. Is this the beginning of pay to win or just the return of GW's inability to think for 5 seconds and balance their stuff?

Edit:

Addendum, here's the DAngels dataslate that came out that no-one noticed or cared about;

Dark Angels Librarius Conclave Formation
1 Ezekiel
2-4 Dark Angel Librarians

Choose one model in the formation, this model has access to any psychic powers known by other models in this formation within 12". Other models within 12" cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase. The chosen model passes psychic tests on 3+

When using Mind Worm, models in this formation double the max range if there is at least one other model within 12"

A nice way to roll multiple times on Sanctic/Maelific and not care that much if you perils, but also not worth it since the cost of that many psychers is fairly high. Still, as long as one dude rolls Vortex or Posession, you'd get your points back fairly easily when burning through the other chumps who didn't. Also a decent chance to get Invis, so that's a bonus as well, I guess, if you don't mind paying an excessive amount of points. I would have been much more excited if this was Ahriman and 2-4 chaos thralls sorcerors.

Requizen

2014-12-19, 10:37 PM

Is there anything other than what has already been leaked for Necrons?

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 10:54 PM

Is this the beginning of pay to win or just the return of GW's inability to think for 5 seconds and balance their stuff?

No, if GW started a Pay To Win, you'd know it. Vanguard must Deep Strike, so they're not going to come 'til at least Turn 2, and the Sternguard must be Embarked on the Stormraven, so they're not going to come 'til Turn 2 either, and the Stormraven is going to come on from your own table edge, so it's not even going to be close to a real first-turn alpha strike. But, like you said, its ~400 Points of literally free stuff.

On the other hand, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are Fearless. DC come with FNP, SG have 2+ Armour. As I've said before, Vanguard are basically useless in the Blood Angels Codex (not that they're not also useless in a Codex Marines army), but giving Vanguard free Power Weapons is a huge step in making them viable, as you can then use those points on giving them all Storm Shields, netting you 32 Point Jump models with Power Weapons and a 3++, 37 Points to given them all Melta Bombs.

The only issue with making this 'totally viable' squad is that you've got a minimum investment of ~800 Points, and still don't have a decent Warlord, no Objective Secured, no model with Angel's Wing (yet), and no Priests. I can see the Formation being hugely competitive, but I wouldn't know what to pair the Formation with. The triple Stormraven Formation from White Dwarf is a minimum of 810 Points with ObSec Tactical Squads.

~1610 Points, all Reserves. You still don't have a Warlord. RAW, Psychic Communion from Inquisition doesn't even work, so yeah. Sanguine Wing is very, very strong (because of stuff you don't pay points for), but you're going to need to combo it with something actually useful on the ground.

Addendum, here's the DAngels dataslate that came out that no-one noticed or cared about;

I have it, and I have the Crimson Slaughter one, too. I was waiting 'til Advent was over to see if they released more rules, or just more painting guides.

Shadowscale

2014-12-19, 10:55 PM

May I post a picture of all the units grouped together on GW's site for the army I want to build an what and how many of each unit? (not buying from them of course, just has them all together for my first army. :P)

Will this all make for a decent or so army together?
http://i.imgur.com/j1Pz9Ni.png

Cheesegear

2014-12-19, 11:00 PM

Is there anything other than what has already been leaked for Necrons?

Sing out if you haven't already seen something.
Mephrit Dynasty Resurgence Decursion (White Dwarf)
Mephrit Dynasty Detachments (Exterminatus)
- 'Relics'
- Warlord Traits
- Mephrit Dynasty Cohort Detachment (re-roll RP)
- Conclave of the Burning One Formation
- Zarathusa's Royal Decursion Formation*
- Anrakyr's Strategic Decursion Formation*
- * = Guardians of Perdita Formation

Requizen

2014-12-20, 01:04 AM

Sing out if you haven't already seen something.
Mephrit Dynasty Resurgence Decursion (White Dwarf)
Mephrit Dynasty Detachments (Exterminatus)
- 'Relics'
- Warlord Traits
- Mephrit Dynasty Cohort Detachment (re-roll RP)
- Conclave of the Burning One Formation
- Zarathusa's Royal Decursion Formation*
- Anrakyr's Strategic Decursion Formation*
- * = Guardians of Perdita Formation

Nope, all the same, which is fine because there's plenty to love there already. Conclave with God Shackle is going on the table asap.

Drasius

2014-12-20, 01:11 AM

No, if GW started a Pay To Win, you'd know it. Vanguard must Deep Strike, so they're not going to come 'til at least Turn 2, and the Sternguard must be Embarked on the Stormraven, so they're not going to come 'til Turn 2 either, and the Stormraven is going to come on from your own table edge, so it's not even going to be close to a real first-turn alpha strike. But, like you said, its ~400 Points of literally free stuff.

On the other hand, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are Fearless. DC come with FNP, SG have 2+ Armour. As I've said before, Vanguard are basically useless in the Blood Angels Codex (not that they're not also useless in a Codex Marines army), but giving Vanguard free Power Weapons is a huge step in making them viable, as you can then use those points on giving them all Storm Shields, netting you 32 Point Jump models with Power Weapons and a 3++, 37 Points to given them all Melta Bombs.

The only issue with making this 'totally viable' squad is that you've got a minimum investment of ~800 Points, and still don't have a decent Warlord, no Objective Secured, no model with Angel's Wing (yet), and no Priests. I can see the Formation being hugely competitive, but I wouldn't know what to pair the Formation with. The triple Stormraven Formation from White Dwarf is a minimum of 810 Points with ObSec Tactical Squads.

~1610 Points, all Reserves. You still don't have a Warlord. RAW, Psychic Communion from Inquisition doesn't even work, so yeah. Sanguine Wing is very, very strong (because of stuff you don't pay points for), but you're going to need to combo it with something actually useful on the ground.

That's not as bad, but 400 points of free gear is getting up there with daemon factory, but this is something you can reliably control.

Tau is the 1st thing that springs to mind.

50 - Ethereal

190 - Riptide, IA, EWO
190 - Riptide, IA, EWO

75 - 10x Kroot, Sniper rounds, Kroothound
75 - 10x Kroot, Sniper rounds, Kroothound

55 - 5x Pathfinders
55 - 5x Pathfinders

210 - 3x Broadsides, T-L HYMP, SMS, EWO

75 - Bunker, Comms Relay

BA Formation of Cheese
220 - 10x VV, Jump packs, 10x Power Weapons
220 - 10x VV, Jump packs, 10x Power Weapons
230 - 10x Sternguard, 10x Combi weapons
200 - Stormraven

1845

Feel free to drop the broadsides for another riptide.

I'd wager that White scars bikes with smashface and a scoutbiker squad or 2 with homing beacons would do wonders with this list as well.

May I post a picture of all the units grouped together on GW's site for the army I want to build an what and how many of each unit? (not buying from them of course, just has them all together for my first army. :P)

Will this all make for a decent or so army together?
http://i.imgur.com/j1Pz9Ni.png

Probably best if you write up a general list and we can advise you better since I see a large amount of scoll on the side so you've got lots more stuff we can't see.

I do see the Masque in there though, so I would recommend against that straight away, though others may be able to chime in with better advice.

bluntpencil

2014-12-20, 01:29 AM

An Archangels Strike Force with an Angel's Fury Spearhead, with Furiosos in Drop Pods, and a Terminator Librarian flying in the Spearhead, sounds a fun way to slam Dreadnoughts into the enemy.

Shadowscale

2014-12-20, 01:33 AM

Its a soul grinder
keeper of secrets
the masque
a herald of slaanesh
5 boxes of daemonettes
a seeker chariot
3 boxes of seekers
6 fiends of slaanesh

Should be arond 1750-1850 points properly kitted out.

Cheesegear

2014-12-20, 01:40 AM

http://i.imgur.com/j1Pz9Ni.png

Using your screenshot, I Googled what you were looking at...Uh, that's a 'Collector's Army', and its pretty bad.

Shadowscale

2014-12-20, 01:44 AM

Using your screenshot, I Googled what you were looking at...Uh, that's a 'Collector's Army', and its bad.

Fair enough, I just like Slaasnesh a lot.
Using only let's say Khorne and Slaanesh Daemons could one build a decent list?
How bad are bloodletters when paired with daemonettes, is the bloodthrister decent this addition due to melee taking such a big hit. I want to run things I like without writing myself out of every tourney ever. Essentially with models being expensive I want ones that will last and not just be the flavor of the month.

Cheesegear

2014-12-20, 01:53 AM

An Archangels Strike Force with an Angel's Fury Spearhead, with Furiosos in Drop Pods, and a Terminator Librarian flying in the Spearhead, sounds a fun way to slam Dreadnoughts into the enemy.

Blood Angels, Archangels Strike Force (Exterminatus)
(W) Librarian; Mastery Level 2, Terminator Armour [Storm Shield] - 125 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Frag Cannon, Extra Armour - 145 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Frag Cannon, Extra Armour - 145 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Frag Cannon, Extra Armour - 145 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Magna-Grapple - 125 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Magna-Grapple - 125 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Magna-Grapple - 125 Points

Blood Angels, Angel's Fury Spearhead Force Formation (White Dwarf)
Tactical Squad (x5); Teleport Homer - 70 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Teleport Homer - 70 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Teleport Homer - 70 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

Total: 1745 Points...Searchlights on the Stormravens?

Roll for Reserves on Turn 1. If the Stormravens come on, great. If not, the Dreadnoughts on the ground with Extra Armour immediately bail. Drop Smoke and end turn.

bluntpencil

2014-12-20, 02:05 AM

Blood Angels, Archangels Strike Force (Exterminatus)
(W) Librarian; Mastery Level 2, Terminator Armour [Storm Shield] - 125 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Frag Cannon, Extra Armour - 145 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Frag Cannon, Extra Armour - 145 Points
Furioso Dreadnoujght; Frag Cannon, Extra Armour - 145 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Magna-Grapple - 125 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Magna-Grapple - 125 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Magna-Grapple - 125 Points

Blood Angels, Angel's Fury Spearhead Force Formation (White Dwarf)
Tactical Squad (x5); Teleport Homer - 70 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Teleport Homer - 70 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Teleport Homer - 70 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

Total: 1745 Points...Searchlights on the Stormravens?

Roll for Reserves on Turn 1. If the Stormravens come on, great. If not, the Dreadnoughts on the ground with Extra Armour immediately bail. Drop Smoke and end turn.

I think the Spearhead Tactical Squads need to be ten strong?

Also, the Dreads need Drop Pods to get charges off the Deep Strike.

Just realised I was being dumb. The Dreads may as well ride in the Ravens if they can.

Cheesegear

2014-12-20, 02:16 AM

I think the Spearhead Tactical Squads need to be ten strong?

So it does. Drop a Dread -125 Points. +(5x3x14)ppm is +210 Points. Taking it to 1830, and it's not going to scale down at all. Maybe grab a few Heavy Flamers.

At the end of the day, I'm really happy with how Blood Angels turned out. White Dwarf has a bunch of Formations in it, and the Codex actually makes more than a passing reference to the Flesh Tearers. Could it have been done differently? Is this 'Pay to Win'? No. The Blood Angels' Codex is 112 pages long and no units are missing/removed since last Codex (Doom, Parasite, Marbo, etc.). If something was deliberately taken out to be put in one of the Supplements, I don't know what that would be. Assault Squads as Troops is gone, but, if we're being real with each other, that was never going to stay - and is yet to came back in any Supplement for that matter, no 'pay to win' here.

If, what you're actually complaining about, is the inability to bring six, 5-man squads in discounted Razorbacks, or you want to put 4 Land Raiders in 1500 Points, then, no. Just no.

bluntpencil

2014-12-20, 02:52 AM

So it does. Drop a Dread -125 Points. +(5x3x14)ppm is +210 Points. Taking it to 1830, and it's not going to scale down at all. Maybe grab a few Heavy Flamers.

At the end of the day, I'm really happy with how Blood Angels turned out. White Dwarf has a bunch of Formations in it, and the Codex actually makes more than a passing reference to the Flesh Tearers. Could it have been done differently? Is this 'Pay to Win'? No. The Blood Angels' Codex is 112 pages long and no units are missing/removed since last Codex (Doom, Parasite, Marbo, etc.). If something was deliberately taken out to be put in one of the Supplements, I don't know what that would be. Assault Squads as Troops is gone, but, if we're being real with each other, that was never going to stay - and is yet to came back in any Supplement for that matter, no 'pay to win' here.

If, what you're actually complaining about, is the inability to bring six, 5-man squads in discounted Razorbacks, or you want to put 4 Land Raiders in 1500 Points, then, no. Just no.

I fully agree! And if you want fluffy melee guys in Troops, to fill out slots in Formations, there are the Deathstorm Dataslates.

It's a shame that there's no real incentive to taking Assault Squads, but that's a minor issue. I'm in love with charging from Deep Strike.

Drasius

2014-12-20, 04:25 AM

Fair enough, I just like Slaasnesh a lot.
Using only let's say Khorne and Slaanesh Daemons could one build a decent list?
How bad are bloodletters when paired with daemonettes, is the bloodthrister decent this addition due to melee taking such a big hit. I want to run things I like without writing myself out of every tourney ever. Essentially with models being expensive I want ones that will last and not just be the flavor of the month.

Bloodletters are regarded as the worst troop unit in the codex. Bloodthirster could be worse, but most choices are better than he is. You could do far, far worse than running 3-4 flying daemon princes casting telepathy and hoping for invisibility and shrouding and fill the points in with daemonettes, seekers and flesh hounds. You'd be relying on the daemon princes to kill of anything AV13 or 14, and you'd get your daemonic face stomped in by knights, but you should do OK against most other things.

Something like;

350 - Belakor
270 - Keeper of Secrets, ML3, 2x Greater Rewards, 1x Lesser Reward

205 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater reward
205 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater reward
205 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater reward

35 - 5x Furies
240 - 15x Flesh Hounds

340 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward

1850

Alternatively, All the chariots;

340 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward
340 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward

225 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater Reward, Icon, Rapturous Standard
225 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater Reward, Icon, Rapturous Standard

60 - Hellflayer Chariot
60 - Hellflayer Chariot
60 - Hellflayer Chariot

180 - Seeker Cavalcade, 3x Seeker Chariots, 3x Greater rewards
180 - Seeker Cavalcade, 3x Seeker Chariots, 3x Greater rewards
180 - Seeker Cavalcade, 3x Seeker Chariots, 3x Greater rewards

1847

I'm sure someone else can give you a much better list than I can, but Slaanesh is kind of locking into haveing daemon princes with a greater reward devoted to the Lash and hoping for Iron arm to deal with vehicles and fliers. Belekor is also an option, since he has wings, eternal warrior, armourbane and knows Invis and shouded automatically. Yeah, all the others to, but who cares about that?

All of their units are kinda samey, in that they have no saves, no shooting and low strength but run fast, have a fair amount of attacks and have rending. You could add a soul grinder in there for a stronger unit who has shooting and skyfire, but then, you only have 3 other units with an AV in the army. It also tends to result in spam lists as you've seen, since there's only 1 unit available in most slots for most gods, so there's only a few ways to do things, but many of your units are the same.

I just don't think mono Slaanesh or Slaanesh/khorne is what you want to be taking when trying to be competative at the tournament level. Would you accept taking CSM allies/additional forces as well?

At the end of the day, I'm really happy with how Blood Angels turned out. White Dwarf has a bunch of Formations in it, and the Codex actually makes more than a passing reference to the Flesh Tearers. Could it have been done differently? Is this 'Pay to Win'? No. The Blood Angels' Codex is 112 pages long and no units are missing/removed since last Codex (Doom, Parasite, Marbo, etc.). If something was deliberately taken out to be put in one of the Supplements, I don't know what that would be. Assault Squads as Troops is gone, but, if we're being real with each other, that was never going to stay - and is yet to came back in any Supplement for that matter, no 'pay to win' here.

If, what you're actually complaining about, is the inability to bring six, 5-man squads in discounted Razorbacks, or you want to put 4 Land Raiders in 1500 Points, then, no. Just no.

You can bring 4 BA LR's in 1500 anyway now with double CAD. Besides, shouldn't you be playing Black Templars for that anyway?

Shadowscale

2014-12-20, 06:34 AM

Bloodletters are regarded as the worst troop unit in the codex. Bloodthirster could be worse, but most choices are better than he is. You could do far, far worse than running 3-4 flying daemon princes casting telepathy and hoping for invisibility and shrouding and fill the points in with daemonettes, seekers and flesh hounds. You'd be relying on the daemon princes to kill of anything AV13 or 14, and you'd get your daemonic face stomped in by knights, but you should do OK against most other things.

Something like;

350 - Belakor
270 - Keeper of Secrets, ML3, 2x Greater Rewards, 1x Lesser Reward

205 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater reward
205 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater reward
205 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater reward

35 - 5x Furies
240 - 15x Flesh Hounds

340 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward

1850

Alternatively, All the chariots;

340 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward
340 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Armour, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward

225 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater Reward, Icon, Rapturous Standard
225 - 20x Daemonettes, Alluress, Greater Reward, Icon, Rapturous Standard

60 - Hellflayer Chariot
60 - Hellflayer Chariot
60 - Hellflayer Chariot

180 - Seeker Cavalcade, 3x Seeker Chariots, 3x Greater rewards
180 - Seeker Cavalcade, 3x Seeker Chariots, 3x Greater rewards
180 - Seeker Cavalcade, 3x Seeker Chariots, 3x Greater rewards

1847

I'm sure someone else can give you a much better list than I can, but Slaanesh is kind of locking into haveing daemon princes with a greater reward devoted to the Lash and hoping for Iron arm to deal with vehicles and fliers. Belekor is also an option, since he has wings, eternal warrior, armourbane and knows Invis and shouded automatically. Yeah, all the others to, but who cares about that?

All of their units are kinda samey, in that they have no saves, no shooting and low strength but run fast, have a fair amount of attacks and have rending. You could add a soul grinder in there for a stronger unit who has shooting and skyfire, but then, you only have 3 other units with an AV in the army. It also tends to result in spam lists as you've seen, since there's only 1 unit available in most slots for most gods, so there's only a few ways to do things, but many of your units are the same.

I just don't think mono Slaanesh or Slaanesh/khorne is what you want to be taking when trying to be competative at the tournament level. Would you accept taking CSM allies/additional forces as well?

You can bring 4 BA LR's in 1500 anyway now with double CAD. Besides, shouldn't you be playing Black Templars for that anyway?

I really did like that first list you came up with, if you say its still not good enough for tourneys though. I actually don't mind any of the chaos gods, using all 4 of them can something like that first list be made better? I don't really like marines that much.

Voidhawk

2014-12-20, 08:56 AM

Sing out if you haven't already seen something.
Mephrit Dynasty Resurgence Decursion (White Dwarf)
Mephrit Dynasty Detachments (Exterminatus)
- 'Relics'
- Warlord Traits
- Mephrit Dynasty Cohort Detachment (re-roll RP)
- Conclave of the Burning One Formation
- Zarathusa's Royal Decursion Formation*
- Anrakyr's Strategic Decursion Formation*
- * = Guardians of Perdita Formation

I'd be interested to hear if there are any actual rules for taking the Relics, other than the floating list.

Cheesegear

2014-12-20, 10:27 AM

You can bring 4 BA LR's in 1500 anyway now with double CAD. Besides, shouldn't you be playing Black Templars for that anyway?

Nah, Forge World SAV list is where its at. Rules are pretty much free - except for the Relic of the Armoury rule which isn't explained anywhere within the army list, and specifically tells you to look up IA2(2E) - so anyone and everyone has access to it. You just need your meta to not be wussies about including Forge World. A Daemon army can Summon 500 Points of new models, per turn, but Forge World is out? A Knight/DA army has Super-Heavies with 4+ Invulnerable saves all 'round all the time, etc.

I'd be interested to hear if there are any actual rules for taking the Relics, other than the floating list.

Not really. Sane people would assume One Per Army, but not even the Blood Angels section (more in depth above) has that rule. RAW, you can take any Relic from Exterminatus as many times as you want. The only sticking point seems to be whether or not 'Harbingers of [X]' still count as 'Crypteks', as Harbingers don't have separate statblocks to Crypteks and are therefore not new models, however, you upgrade 'to' a Harbinger, meaning that the model is no longer a Cryptek and is instead, something else, even if its statblock doesn't change.

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-20, 11:09 AM

That was fast. (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Shield-of-Baal-Exterminatus-Softback)

Drasius

2014-12-20, 07:05 PM

96 AUD for Exterminatus on top of 81AUD for the codex? Tell 'em they're dreamin'.

I really did like that first list you came up with, if you say its still not good enough for tourneys though. I actually don't mind any of the chaos gods, using all 4 of them can something like that first list be made better? I don't really like marines that much.

If you like the 1st list, then run with that. The more you like your list, the more you'll enjoy your games. There will by default be a lot of refinement to do to match your local meta, maybe you'll rarely see fliers or AV 14, in which case getting Iron arm on the DP isn't quite as vital. Maybe you've got a ton of 'Nids so your casting isn't going to be as reliable as you'd like. On the other hand, if you don't see much Tau, then Nurgle DP's with a 2+ coversave and a balesword will own face. Maybe you don't like how [X] works in your list and you want to run [Y].

Something like this;

CAD #1
300 - Fateweaver
135 - Herald - Slaanesh, Lvl 1, Steed, Greater Gift [Greater Etherblade], Loci of Beguilement
140 - Herald - Slaanesh, Lvl 2, Steed, Exalted Gift [Grimoure]

45 - 3x Nurglings
45 - 3x Nurglings

225 - 15x Seekers, Heartseeker, Greater Reward, Icon, Rapturous Standard

170 - Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Torrent
170 - Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Torrent
180 - Soulgrinder - Nurgle, Phlegm

CAD #2

350 - Be'lakor

45 - 3x Nurglings
45 - 3x Nurglings

1850

Could also work, but as you can see, there's not much slaanesh in there.

Or this if you didn't want to have to rely on Fateweaver, Belakor or Invis and play rock 'em sock 'em Daemons instead;

310 - Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Armour, ML2, 2x Greater reward [1x Balesword]
305 - Lord of Change, ML3, 2x Greater rewards, 1x Lesser reward [Staff of Change]

156 - 3x Beasts of Nurgle

180 - 20x Daemonettes
135 - 15x Daemonettes
99 - 11x Horrors of Tzeentch

240 - 15 x Flesh Hounds
225 - 9x Screamers

100 - Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

1850

A bit of variety and it shoves a lot of stuff into your enemies face turn 2. hopefully letting the 2 FMC's land with a bit less pain than they would normally face. Biomancy on the daemon prince, your choice on the LoC, but I'd be looking for Cursed Earth on maelific and at least 1 roll on Div. Even if you get nothing good on him, he's still a quality beatstick with Str 8 AP2.

There lots of tweaks and changes to be made to this for personal preference however, as there's even less Slaanesh in this list than any of the others, and that's the point.

If you want grimoure, you're going to want fateweaver. If you want invis, where you used to take Slaanesh heralds, now you take Belakor because there's no risk and he's an FMC with eternal warrior and armourbane. Slaanesh heralds are a nice supplement to Belekor, but most people run with the grimoure as well, so that means you want fateweaver, so the only daemon princes you have access to are Tzeentch (which is not terrible, as they can lay claim to the most turable DP against Tau or ignores cover weapons) and now you're out of HQ slots unless you want to go double CAD. The Keeper of Secret also has access to telepathy, but doesn't have wings, armour, natural psychic levels or high toughness, so struggles with survival.

If you're running that much psychic shenanigans, you're going to need more warp charge, so you need horror batteries in your troops, and maybe some nurglings for shrouded ObSec units in ruins on the cheap, so slaanesh troops are generally a secondary concern despite being fast and having rending.

Beasts of nurgle don't get doubled out by Str 8/9 and Bloodcrushers can get scout with karanak while also having an icon and AP3. So fiends don't bring anything special there, while Flamers have template shooting and are jump pack infantry and significantly cheaper than all other elite choices.

Seekers are great, especially if you're bringing a herald, but we've just established you can't fit one in for lack of slots in HQ, and they can't charge from outflank, so it's a turn 3 charge at best. Screamers are faster and have melta jaws while flesh hounds are T4 with 2 wounds and scout and can also carry a herald, but the khorne herald on jugger is more killy that the slaanesh herald, though they're both close and Nurgles blight drones have T5, 3 wounds, instant death swords and are jet pack cavalry. The chariots are paper thin and you can really struggle to have enough armour saturation unless you spam nothing but chariots.

Heavy support is dominated by the soul grinder, because AV 13 and 4 HP for 135 is just silly and when you can bolt battlecannons or railguns onto them, it just gets worse. Daemon princes of the same god as your HQ greater daemons also feature heavily, because DP's can be tricked out and become very hard for some lists to deal with when there are 3/4/5 FMC's on the board, not to mention they can take an exalted reward when you've maxed out your HQ slots and don't have room for heralds. 2+ cover save nurgle FMC's with instant death AP2 weapons are brutal for their points, and the ability to get 2++ re-rolling 1's Tzeentch princes is equally brutal, if not more effort. Skull cannons are only AP5, so they're not the AV you need, you've got more Slaanesh chariots made out of wet paper and the now usable burning chariot, with a d3 shot lascannon and a Str 5 AP3 torrent flamer for 100 points that can fill gaps quite nicely.

So we see why Slaanesh has copped the short end of the stick in virtually every category, and when you want to play tournament games, unless you're the best unit in the slot or bring something no other unit can, you're generally not worth considering. Still, some units have a different playstyle which can fit some people but not others. Some people have great success with an icon on daemonettes or blood crushers and deepstriking slaaneshi soul grinders or bloodletters/khorne soul grinders, others like nurgle DP's flying around with 2+ cover saves. Yes, you can fit 5 FMC's into 1850, but if flying around avoiding stuff for 4 turns isn't your bag, then you might not have much success with it, the same way if you can't keep track of the which model has which of the 20 or more psychic powers you'll have when playing screamer star or just tzeentch heavy.

You need to figure out how you like to play, and then build your list from there, probably moreso with daemons than almost any other codex. You can make most things work, but you can't necessarily make everything work well enough for high level tournament play.

Uhh, I kinda rambled on there, sorry.

Cheesegear can probably help you more than I can though.

Cheesegear

2014-12-21, 02:29 AM

Guide to Blood Angels
Sons of Sanguinius, Protectors of Mankind

Special Rules
Furious Charge: While not strictly a Blood Angels' special rule, all Blood Angel Infantry and Walker models have this rule. Consider it as the rule Blood Angels get by way of Chapter Tactics. The fact that pretty much every unit in the book has this rule is one of the things that makes Blood Angels one of the few armies in the game that can Assault and not be terrible at it.

And They Shall Know No Fear: Again, not a Blood Angels' rule per se, but, always Regrouping and then acting normally for the turn is always strong and will never not be. If you've never not played a Space Marine army, you barely know that this rule even exists. Like Objective Secured. You only notice the rule when you don't have it.

Combat Squads: With very few Missions requiring Kill Points, getting double the amount of units per FOC slot is nothing short of quite good. If, you're ever in a position where playing multiple small units of Marines would end badly for you (i.e; AP3 Blast/Templates, Kill Point Missions, etc.), you can just keep your units of ten. For this reason - and this reason alone - it's really hard to justify why you would ever have units of 6-9 models that have this rule.

Warlord Traits
1. Rampage. Not strong.
2. +1 Initiative. Since you don't really have access to Eternal Warrior, you shouldn't really be taking Unwieldy weapons (because there's a Relic...), this is quite strong.
3. Master-Craft a weapon. Yawn.
4. Adamantium Will is decent.
5. Jump Units, Fliers and Skimmers in your Primary Detachment can re-roll Reserves and those same units only Scatter 1D6".
6. Fearless aura that effects Imperial units (per the BRB). Strong.

This table isn't great. Not because there are more 'bad' results than 'good' results, but the table is bad because it's inconsistent. Four Traits are 'Personal', and then there are another two Traits that only become strong if you've actually planned for them, which you can't plan for, because RNG.

Sanguinary Discipline
Primaris: Warp Speed (Biomancy) that you can cast on other Characters, except +D3, instead of +3.
1. Doesn't work on Fearless units.
2. Target unit gains Rage. Not bad.
3. Psyker's unit gains a 5++. Useless for Terminators.
4. Very strong. But it's a Witchfire and needs WC2 to cast. So, it's a wash.
5. Beam Lance. Decent.
6. Levitation (Telekinesis) that needs WC2. Whatever.

Again, not a bad table, just really inconsistent.

Relics of Baal
Crown Angelic; Fear is irrelevant.
Veritas Vitae; Bonus Warlord Traits are strong. Always take.
Valour's Edge; At-Initiative AP2, yes please.
Fury of Baal; 25 Points for a Pistol is way too much.
Angel's Wing Jump Pack that lets you re-roll Scatter, and re-roll Mishaps. When firing Interceptor, models can only shoot your unit with Snap Shots. Unfortunately, Coteaz doesn't fire Interceptor, he does his own thing. But if you're in a meta with a lot of Tau, Angel's Wing is too good not to take.

HQ
Captain: Nothing too special here. Ignore Relic Blades, take the AP2 Relic for less points. While Furious Charge makes the Relic Blade S7, it's still not AP2. Always bring a Storm Shield, always bring Artificer Armour. With Valour's Edge and a Storm Shield, don't be afraid to pay 5 Points for an Auspex, never leave your Melta Bombs at home. If you want you can bring a Bike or Angel's Wing.

Librarian: Can't roll on Telepathy, so automatically sucks. Gallian's Staff is decent, but don't try and re-roll all of your 1s, just some, or just enough to avoid a double-1 Perils if you're casting Daemonology. Roll on Divination, take the Primaris, Charge, if you have to.

Captain Tycho: Captain Tycho is under-costed at 130 Points. He is paying 0 Points for the following; His Warlord Trait is Rampage, he carried Hatred (Orks), which is kind of okay since Blood Angels are an Assault army, and he has a Master-Crafted Combi-Melta that fires Kraken Bolts. The only thing really, really, really terrible about him is that he has no special close combat weapons. He's basically carrying a Chainsword. Still, for his points, he's okay. Don't take him in anything bigger than 750 Points.

Tycho the Lost: Pays an extra 15 Points to be a Death Company Marine. Still doesn't bring a combat weapon, and can only join Death Company units which means that his Fearless is just going to waste. If you're playing 750 Points, and have also brought a DC, Tycho the Lost is a decent Warlord. He's points-efficient, sure. But if you can pay more points for a better Warlord, you should pay the points.

Librarian Dreadnought: Carries a S10, AP2 Force Weapon. If you can't cause Instant Death one way, cause it the other way. Unfortunately, a Power Fist is a Specialist Weapon, and the L-Dreadnought only has two base attacks, which means he'll need to cast Quickening if he wants to actually achieve anything. Unfortunately, a Dreadnought doesn't come equipped with Grenades, so Quickening may not be as effective as it otherwise should be. However, with FA13, a Librarian Dread is immune to Krak Grenades, so, it's not a total loss. Depending on your meta, take a Heavy Flamer or Meltagun, throw him in a Drop Pod and roll. Not great. But passable. Unless your meta is already dealing with Imperial Knights. If your meta is already dealing with Imperial Knights, your Librarian Dread is going to get laughed off the board.

Mephiston: Mephiston is an ML3 Psyker with S/T5, WS6 and 4(5) attacks. He comes equipped with a Psychic Hood and his Warlord Trait gives him Adamantium Will. If you're planning on making a Blood Angels Death Star, be sure to put Mephiston in it because ML3+Hood+Will is going to shut down stupid crap like Psychic Shrieks and Hallucinations. One of Mephiston's Power slots is taken by his unique Power that gives him S10, which isn't that good since his sword is still AP3. Still, it's something. If you can Force and S10 in the same Phase, you may be able to take on a Transcendent C'Tan for a turn. Then the TC'T will get its Stomp attacks and Mephiston will die. Still, Mephiston can take off a bunch of Wounds before he dies. If it bleeds you can kill it.

The Sanguinor: At 200 Points, he's way too expensive. He's not an Independent Character, so your opponent can always target him, he has Eternal Warrior, and that helps. But, for real, without the ability to be an IC, you're almost always better off paying less points for Mephiston, or a Captain with the extra Warlord Trait and AP2 Relics. Sangunior does a lot of things, but none of them are really worth talking about when the negatives already outweigh them.

Astorath: Astorath passes on Zealot and Adamantium Will to any unit he joins, and that's decent. In addition, if Astorath joins Death Company, all Death Company models can re-roll To Hit and Wound when they Charge. That's pretty cool. But, there is no language that says that Astorath can only join Death Company units, so, it's entirely possible that he'll be seen in more than a few Imperial-centric Death Stars just because he passes on Zealot. He's not great, but he's not too expensive, either. A very 'middle of the pack' model. Not bad, not great. Usable.

Sanguinary Priest: A Blood Angels unit joined by a Priest gains +1WS. Doesn't stack with multiple Priests. In addition, any unit he joins gains FNP. Which is super strong on an Independent Character who happens to be Battle Brothers with a lot of armies, can take a Jump Pack or Bike to insert himself into even more units. So, yeah. For 60 Points he's a steal, in any Imperial-centric army, his IC-ness also lets him Look Out! on a 2+, which other Apothecary-style models don't get.

Brother Corbulo: How come the basic Sanguinary Priest model looks so much cooler than the Unique Character? If Corbulo is your Warlord, he has I6, which isn't great considering that his special sword doesn't even have an AP value. As always, he gives FNP to any squad he joins, separately, he has an aura which gives Blood Angel models +1WS and I, which doesn't stack with other Blood Chalices. Also, no matter who your Warlord is, Corbulo gives your army one re-roll per game; Seize, Reserves, To Hit, Wound or Saving Throw, or re-roll a Scatter. Unfortunately, Corbulo costs double the points of a regular Priest. So, yeah. Take him or don't. How important, really, is that re-roll? The bonus to Initiative aura that he brings is also really strong if you actually are trying to make use out of Blood Angels and their ability to actually Assault without sucking.

Techmarine: 50 Points, 2+ Armour Save, one Wound. You know the drill. The only reason to take a Techmarine is if you plan on fixing a Super-Heavy, or making one of your Terrain pieces in your Deployment Zone have a better Cover Save. Decent. But if you're looking for a 'secondary HQ', a Sanguinary Priest is probably going to be the better pick. If you actually are taking a Techmarine over a Sanguinary Priest, you need to think about your life choices, and start playing Codex Marines instead.

Chaplain: Power Maul, 4++, passes on Zealot, for 90 Points. While Astorath is similar, Astorath can't take Angel's Wing or Valour's Edge, so that's something to think about. But Astorath does have Adamantium Will when he's your Warlord. Chaplains are useful sometimes. But, in the Blood Angels book, Librarians can take Divination, and the Primaris for that table also gives out Hatred but slightly not. Because Zealot also hands out Fearless, which matters.

Troops
Tactical Squad: There are lots of colours of Space Marine that like to use Tactical Squads, Blood Angels are not one of those colours. Your 'Chapter Tactics' is Furious Charge, and if you shoot Rapid Fire Boltguns, you can't Charge, so whether you Charge or Shoot, one of your things is going to waste, and that's lame. A 5-man squad in a Drop Pod or Rhino with a Heavy Flamer is decent. Generally speaking, you want to be able to Charge after you shoot, so only pick Special weapons that allow you to do that.

Scout Squad: Pick up Shotguns or Combat Blades, then Charge. Spotting the pattern? If you need a squad that can stay in your DZ and Score on your home Objectives, grab some Sniper Rifles - they're cheaper than a Tactical Squad. The only real issue with Scouts is that you can't get Drop Pods in your Troops' slots with Scouts, and that's really strong, however if you're trying to spam Drop Pods, you might be interested in another colour of Space Marines that isn't red.

Elites
Command Squad: You're no Codex Marines, your Command Squad loadout has pretty much already been decided for you. You automatically get a Company Champion thrown in the squad which Codex Marines definitely wouldn't want, and you have an Apothecary thrown in. Weirdly enough, compared to Codex Marines; The Company Champion and Apothecary are totally free. Whatever, you're locked into a Champion with a Power Sword, and you have Furious Charge. There are only false choices to be made here. Melta Bombs & Storm Shields and at least one model needs to be bringing a Power Fist or Power Axe. Just be wary of models with 2+ Armour, since the Champion must Issue and Accept Challenges and is locked into an AP3 Sword which isn't great.

Death Company Squad: Fearless, FNP, Rage and Relentless, at 20 points per model these guys are very strong. They come with two base attacks, plus Rage, meaning they already have a bunch of attacks, and, with their Relentless added in, giving them Boltguns instead of the more thematic combat weapons is actually a really good idea. Since the DC Squad can't take Melta Bombs, make sure to take a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer, one per five models is efficient, the same amount of Inferno Pistols is generally pretty helpful as well. Ultimately, a DC Squad is a steal.
Abuse their ludicrous amount of stock rules and run them in Kill Team games.

Lemartes: Taking an entire Elite slot to one model, he can only join DC Squads, and grants them Zealot, or more accurately, DC Squads are already Fearless, so Lemartes grants them Hatred. If you're really hurting for a Character to be in your DC Squad (to pick up Challenges), you're better off paying the 35 Points to upgrade Lemartes to Astorath, giving the squad a Character with an AP2 weapon which Lemartes doesn't have, and Astorath lets the DC Squad re-roll To Wound as well, if you've built your list (in?)correctly, Astorath brings Adamantium Will as well.
Lemartes would be great if he didn't hog a slot to himself, but he does, and the Blood Angels book have a lot of good Elites that they're rather be bringing. Lemartes, on his own, is a whole 'nother 5 DC Marines, and that's just not worth it.

Sanguinary Guard: For 10 Points more than a DC Marine, Sanguinary Guard lose all special rules - except Fearless, the best one! - and instead gain Artificer Armour and Encarmine weapons. The stock box comes with three Swords and two Axes, and that's roughly correct, if you want - and you should want - upgrade one of those Axes to a Power Fist and you should be able to handle most threats, bring a pair of Inferno Pistols just for insurance.

Be aware that for +2 points over a Sanguinary Guard, a DC Marine can be given a Power Weapon. DC Squads come with a boatload more rules and are very strong. Generally speaking, the only thing you need to consider with 'DC vs. SG' is whether or not you think FNP is better than a 2+ Save. Check your meta. Sanguinary Guard don't get Saves vs. Plasma Guns, DC don't get saves vs. Krak Missiles. But, with Power Weapons, DC Marines can have 5 attacks when they Charge, which is so much better than Sanguinary Guard. It's a mess. There really isn't a right answer - unless you face Imperial Knights.

Dreadnought: AV12 Walkers are bad.

Death Company Dreadnought: Blood Talons are 10 points to give your Dread, Shred. Not a bad investment (though two sets of Melta Bombs on random Sergeants is probably better). Make sure to bring Heavy Flamers. Magna-Grapples aren't bad, but you do lose your Smoke Launchers. AV12 Walker is still bad, but being immune to Crew Stunned and Shaken makes up for it.

Furioso Dreadnought: Blood Talons are slightly better because of the AV13 meaning your Furioso actually wants to be in combat. This type of Dreadnought is FA13 being immune to Krak Grenades so is probably worth it. In broad strokes, a DC Dread is more resistant to Shooting, a Furioso is more resistant in Combat, which sounds weird when you think about it. Still, AV13. It's a thing. Remember, so are Imperial Knights. Those are AV13 and way more scary.

Terminator Squad: Furious Charge on a unit with Power Fists is pretty sad, but you can always pick up an extra Ranged weapon. Heavy Flamers in Drop Pods aren't bad. Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers are usually pretty good. Take a few Chainfists. They're Terminators, they do what they do. Why pick them over Sanguinary Guard? Because Terminators have Invulnerable Saves, which is yet another step over FNP. But, Blood Angels have access to Independent Characters who grant FNP to squads. So, yeah. But, then again, that same FNP-giver can be put into any squad, by taking Death Company, you save points, which you can spend on a Librarian (or Mephiston), who can hopefully roll the 5++ Power giving your Death Co. FNP and an Invulnerable save. Long story short, there's a lot of competition in the Elites slot under this Codex.

Terminator Assault Squad: Lightning Claws with Furious Charge are very strong. However, since Terminators don't have Grenades (Grey Knight ones do :smallfrown:), you're probably better off going for the Thunder Hammer and Storm Shields giving your squad an even better Invulnerable save. Throw in a Priest to give them FNP and watch them steamroll through anything that isn't a Gargantuan - only GKTs can do that. Only thing 'wrong' with Terminators is that they don't have Jump Packs and can't Sweeping Advance, which Blood Angels really want to be doing all the time - as any Assault army does.

Vanguard Veteran Squad: The only - only - benefit that this squad has over anything else is that they can have Jump Packs and Storm Shields. So they can Sweeping Advance and not die. Death Company Marines only cost a single point extra. Death Company have more attacks and FNP. Vanguard can take Melta Bombs and Storm Shields. Did I mention that there was competition in the Elites slot? You've got like, three squads all doing the same thing, but slightly different, and you have Terminators, which are also similar, and different. If you're not a fan of black and gold Marines, and want proper, red Marines, if you really, really, want to use Vanguard, consider having two units and taking one of the Formations (see below).

Sternguard Veteran Squad: Drop Pods in your Elite slot. Take a bunch of Combi-Weapons of your choice (usually -Melta) and Alpha Strike something big and scary on Turn 1. If you're running into Gargantuans, you may need Combi-Gravs instead. Yeah. Not a lot to say here. Cheaper than their Codex Marine counterparts which doesn't make any sense, but, there it is. But, then again, Blood Angels' Sternguard don't have access to Pedro Kantor. So, whatever. First-turn Melta or Grav drops are always welcome in any Space Marine army. Be aware that Blood Angel Tactical Squads can pick up Heavy Flamers, and Objective Secured units with ObSec Transports are better than units that don't have ObSec, especially when the ObSec units are also cheaper.

Fast Attack
Rhino*: Carries ten non-Bulky models, can fix itself. It's a Rhino, that pays ten extra points for Fast that you'll probably never use. Unless it's the last turn and your Rhino is a Dedicated Transport for a Troops unit.

Razorback*: Carries six non-Bulky models, has a weapon on top. It's a Razorback, that pays ten extra points for Fast that you'll probably never use. Unless it's the last turn and your Razorback is a Dedicated Transport for a Troops unit.

Drop Pod*: Carries ten models or a Dreadnought. Tactical Squads will want to abuse their Drop Pods' ability to get them anywhere on the board in one turn and Score wherever they want. Drop Pods are also good for making sure that your Death Company doesn't get shot up, and Deep Striking from a Drop Pod means you'll rarely Mishap. Alternatively, since a Drop Pod is Fast Attack, you can put Terminators in it, too.

*Also used as Dedicated Transports

Land Speeder Squadron: Well, it's not like you have Stormtalons that completely outshine Land Speeders in every way. So, there's certainly something to be said out Land Speeders, especially if you're running a lot of Fast Vehicles in your Troops slots, and you can back up your Fast Rhinos with Fast Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas. As mentioned, there's no Stormtalons in this book, so if you really want Land Speeders, you can totally do that without deliberately not picking better units (because there isn't any).

Assault Squad: Meh. Have you seen your Elite options? But, it's always worth looking at the cheapest Melta Drop unit in the book; 5-man squads with dual Meltaguns in a free Drop Pod, which is something your Codex Marine counterparts can't do. Blood Angel Assault Squads get to use 'Tactical' weapons that aren't just Flamers. If you're not interested in using an Assault Squad for Assaulting (what a silly idea!), you can also grab a pair of cheap Plasma Guns, again, in your cheap-as-free Drop Pod. Only thing Assault Squads can't do is bring Grav-weapons. Blood Angels also have Pistol versions of Flamers and Meltaguns if you want to keep your attacks up. So, in most ways, Blood Angel Assault Squads are still head-and-shoulders above their Codex Marine counterparts.

Bike Squad: If you're running (Jump/) Infantry heavy, Bikes serve the same purpose that Land Speeders would - fast moving Melta weapons - except without sticking out like a sore thumb because Bikes have a T value instead of AV. Remember to bring a Sanguinary Priest to give them FNP, because Bikes with FNP are really strong. But, that's not saying much, because any squad that isn't Death Company is markedly improved by adding a Priest.

Attack Bike Squad: Nah.

Scout Bike Squad: Starts the game on the board. Has access to Locator Beacons. If you're looking for no Scatter Deep Strikes, Scout Bikes, having Infiltrate and Scout is the most reliable way of doing that and putting your Turn 1 Drop Pods where they need to be, kind of.

Heavy Support
Stormraven Gunship: Yep. Assault Vehicle, immune to Melta, lots of guns. One of the better Fliers in the game, mostly because of how well it really, really complements the army it comes from. While a Stormraven can move as fast as it wants and the passengers can still Disembark, it says nothing about Zooming. So, while you can move really, really fast, you still need to drop into Hover Mode if you want your passengers to get out. Always take the Twin-Linked Multi-Melta. Skyfire Melta weapons are really strong, especially Twin-Linked. A Stormraven is also the third place in the entire book where you can get Locator Beacons.
If you're really interested in abusing a Stormraven's Locator Beacon, bring a Skyshield Landing Pad and start the game on the board. However, since you'll be in your own DZ, the Locator Beacon probably isn't that helpful, but you also don't need to roll Reserves on Turn 2, your Stormraven is on the board ready to go. The other super important thing to note about the Locator Beacon is how it interacts with Skies of Fury, in that it totally works, ignoring the downside of getting out when you've moved more than 6" because your passengers wont Scatter.
It's always worth buying at least one Stormraven. In 7th Ed., you need one Flier, but at 200 points a pop, you don't need two. It's also worth pointing out that an entire bunch of Blood Angel Formations need at least Stormraven, so if you plan on using BA Formations, its always handy to have a Stormraven around to keep your options open.

Devastator Squad: Missile Launchers are the only worthwhile option. You never need more than seven models in the unit, paying the extra points for extra bodies just to enable Combat Squads isn't worth it. You should largely ignore Devastators. You're Blood Angels. That's not what you do.

Baal Predator: Fast Predator with a Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, or AP3 Template weapon. If your Troops slots are filled with Razorbacks, this is a decent option for your Heavies (though remember to bring a Stormraven), if only for an AP3 Template that Razorbacks can't bring. Sponsons are a pain, because when moving at Cruising Speed, even a Fast Vehicle can only shoot two weapons and Heavy Flamers, being Template weapons, can't fire Snap Shots. It's a little aggravating, really.

Predator: Coming in at 40 points less than the Baal, the regular Predator is the long-range variant (and by 'variant', I mean the original). The most annoying part about the Predator is how much less expensive it is than the Baal, almost making the above Tank obsolete, if you want to make the normal Predator, Fast, you can do that too. Basically, a Baal Predator has an AP3 Template, the regular Predator doesn't.

Vindicator: S10, AP2 Ordance. It's a mighty fine Tank, especially when you make it Fast which mitigates its terrible range.

Whirlwind: Unfortunately, Heavy Flamers come on Blood Angel Troop squads in Drop Pods which can be anywhere on the board. The only good thing about the Whirlwind is that it's cheap. That's it.

Land Raider / Crusader / Redeemer: Lascannons, Boltguns or AP3 Templates. Tailor your Land Raider choice to your meta. Lascannons aren't totally terrible vs. Imperial Knights. The Crusader has higher Transport Capacity for more Terminators, or Hell, a Furious Charging Tactical Squad isn't even the worst idea in the world. Redeemers have the AP3 Templates that come so highly recommended. Whatever you want. It's an AV14 box.

Lords of War
Commander Dante: 2+/4++ which is fairly standard. But to be in the super-cool Chapter Master club is that he also has Eternal Warrior, which is a huge boost to any model you want to make your Warlord. He has five, I6, AP2 attacks which also makes him a superb beatstick as well as being really hard to kill on the return. His fixed Warlord Trait allows certain models in his Detachment only to re-roll Reserves, again, in his Detachment only, models that Deep Strike only Scatter 1D6 less. The only problem with this Warlord Trait is how much Blood Angels benefit from having several Detachments, so make sure you jam as much as possible into Dante's Detachment just to maximise it.

Gabriel Seth: He carries a huge Chainsword. S8, AP4, Rending. It's not AP2, but it is S8. So if you manage to pull of a Rend, he'll tear T4 characters in half. Seth also has Rage as standard, and Rampage as his Warlord Trait (:smallyuk:), and on a '6' To Hit, generates extra hits like a Necron Tesla weapon. The bottom line is, he has the potential for a lot of attacks. The only issue with Seth is that he doesn't have Jump Pack. Meaning he needs to ride in a Land Raider or Stormraven (Assault Vehicle) to get anywhere, and needs a unit - on foot - for his entourage. Blood Angels typically don't do 'foot' units, but, you're not Blood Angels, are you? You're Flesh Tearers. Terminators or foot-DC are fine units. Ultimately, Seth is only 155 Points, but whatever points you save on him, you should probably spend on his accompanying unit so he can get where he needs to be.

Lords of War not being mandatory HQs doesn't actually hurt Blood Angels all that much. Bring more Sanguinary Priests.

Detachments/Formations
Blood Angels Battle Company: Formation. A Battle Company. In addition, you need a Death Company and a pair of Dreadnoughts to give it that Blood Angels flair. Re-roll your Blood Angels Warlord Trait, and all Troops units from this Formation have Objective Secured which is really cool, and then you get +1 Initiative when you Charge, in addition to your base Furious Charge this is actually really strong. The thing that makes this Formation actually playable, is that this Formation (unlike similar ones found elsewhere) doesn't even need full, 10-man squads.

Baal Strike Force: Detachment. 1-4 Elites. Everything else per CAD. Re-roll your Blood Angels Warlord Trait, and +1 Initiative when units from this Detachment Charge. Is an extra Elite slot worth losing Objective Secured? Not really.

Angel's Wrath Intervention Force: White Dwarf. Formation. Vanguard and 2 Assault Squads. The Vanguard Veterans function as a Locator Beacon for the two Assault Squads when the whole Formation Deep Strikes. When squads land, each enemy unit within 6" takes some S4 Hits, which is kind of okay because you know you wont Scatter. Unfortunately, if the Vanguard initially Scatters badly, the whole Formation turns to crap. It's not great.

Angel's Fury Spearhead Force: White Dwarf. Formation. 3x10-man Tactical Squads and 3 Stormravens. If a Blood Angels model Deep Strikes within 12" of at least two of the Tactical Squads (Embarked in a Transport counts), then the Deep Striking model wont Scatter and can Charge on the turn it Deep Strikes. Largely considered a trap by a lot of people, because you need to have 3 Stormravens and 30 Tactical Marines, which is over 1000 Points tied up in Reserves, at least the Formation can show up in Turn 1 because it can show up on Turn 1, with re-rolls. The other bonus of this Formation is that the Tactical Squads have Objective Secured.
If you're trying to spam no-Scatter Deep Strikes, your best bet is to flood your opponents' DZ with Drop Pods and Locator Beacons, with Scout Bikes in the mid-field. That's much cheaper and more reliable than 1000+ Points in Reserve - in addition to even more points you have invested into the squads that are Deep Striking. If just a few dice in Turn 1 go awry, you lose.
This Formation isn't bad, just entirely misunderstood and entirely over-rated as a result, since it doesn't really work in games under 2000 Points because of how much you need to invest in models that don't start the game in Reserve.

Flesh Tearers Blood Rain Strike Force: White Dwarf. Formation. Death Co., Vanguard, Assault Squad, Dread and Stormraven. The 'one of everything' Formation. Models that Charge out of the Stormraven gain Rage, units from this Formation that Deep Strike gain Counter-Attack and Fearless until the start of the next turn. Remember that 'Flesh Tearers' doesn't actually mean anything, they're all Blood Angels. But, as a self-contained Formation, you can paint them however you want and it will always make sense, because as a Formation, you can't 'muddy' it with other units anyway.

Strike Force Deathstorm (Shield of Baal: Deathstorm)
Captain Karlean: HQ. Carries a Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer, Counter-Attack, and his Warlord Trait gives him +1 to Seize, and while he's alive (doesn't need to be on the board) you can re-roll failed Reserve rolls. Doesn't specify Blood Angels' Reserves, doesn't specify units from his Detachment only. If Karlean is your Warlord, re-roll all of your Reserves. In larger games, +1 to Seize and re-rolling Reserves is still really helpful (as Dante only specifies his Detachment, while Karlean enables all your Formations, too), but, in larger games, we're likely to see other models vie for the Warlord slot (like Dante or Mephiston), which means his trait wont do anything. Meaning you're paying a bunch of points for Counter-Attack and not much else.
With Corbulo, re-roll To Seize on a 5+.

Squad Alphaeus: Elites. A Terminator Squad with Preferred Enemy (Tyranids). Nothing special. If Tyranids are common in your meta, it might be worth looking at, but probably not. It's only Preferred Enemy, and 'Tactical' Terminators still aren't that great.

Raphen's Death Company: Troops. Deathstorm is almost worth buying just for this unit (and Cassor, below). These Death Company are Troops, and that means Objective Secured. If you can put up with Raphen's squad's awkward wargear choices, you pay 0 Points for a Character with a Thunder Hammer, which is another thing that regular Death Company can't take.

Cassor the Damned: Troops (really). Cassor is a DC Dread with Blood Talons and a Magna-Grapple. He only pays five extra points to move to the Troops slot. Cassor is also a Character meaning he can Issue Challenges, so, you can pick out the Marine Power Fist, and AP3 his face off. Or, the Marine Sergeant could refuse the Challenge and the Marine squad needs to rely on Krak Grenades. He's pretty good.

Strike Force Deathstorm: Formation. All of the above units in the same Detachment gain Fearless or Counter-Attack, and once per game, all models in this Formation can re-roll To Wound during an Assault Phase. The Formation is pretty rubbish, and Karlean is probably better used in an Archangel Formation (below), and Raphen and Cassor are far better used in a CAD where they gain Objective Secured.

Archangels Detachments (Shield of Baal: Exterminatus)
It's not clear if models from these Detachments can can still take Relics of Baal from the main Codex, and it's not even stated that the following are One Per Army, meaning you can actually take more than one...Although that's totally against how all Relics up until this point work, so...If you try and argue the point, you don't actually deserve to win it; RAW is actually really dumb and contrary in Exterminatus' case.

Units chosen from the Archangel Detachments may have the following;
Banner of the Archangel Host: Instead of carrying a Company Standard, a Terminator Assault Squad can take this. It's a Company Standard, that also gives the unit Preferred Enemy. If you're a Blood Angels player and aren't spamming Fearless Sanguinary Guard or Death Company, then sure, the Company Standard is useful, then for the cost of an additional Power Fist, you give your entire Assault Terminator unit Preferred Enemy. Gives Assault Terminators a reason to be taken, but you'll have to run an Archangel Detachment, so, yeah. Don't have Exterminatus? Then you probably don't need Assault Terminators. Although, pairs really, really well with Gabriel Seth. Gabriel Seth loves turning 1s into 6s. 6s To Hit cause more Hits, 6s To Wound causes Rending.

Archangel's Edge: For 5 Points, upgrade your Terminator Sergeant's Power Sword to the Edge. Gain an ability to Instant Death vs. Monstrous Creatures. Unfortunately, like other things similar to this, it's not Rending, so a '6' doesn't automatically Wound. Fortunately, Blood Angels have Furious Charge, so maybe you'll be S5. But, if you're fighting a Wraithknight, you know your Sergeant is backed by an entire unit of Power Fists, right? Whatever. It's five points.

Executioner's Hood: Immunity to Shadow in the Warp. As if that mattered.

Warlord Traits
Archangel Warlords may roll on the following;
1. Fearless is good
2. Counter-Attack is okay.
3. Re-roll To Hit in Challenges. Meh.
4. Objective Secured. YEEESSS.
5. Be a Company Standard. Lame.
6. Preferred Enemy is okay.

Archangel Detachments don't have Objective Secured, so, when you consider it, it's just really good, but not game breakingly so. Rolling Objective Secured gives you extra options that your Archangels don't have. Extra options is always good.

Archangels Strike Force: Detachment. 1-2 HQ, 2-14 Elites. That's it. No Lords of War or Forts. All your HQs must be in Terminator Armour (Captain Karlean* is allowed), and then you get Sternguard, Terminators, Vanguard and 0<6 Furiosos. You can re-roll Reserves for models with the Deep Strike special, however, these models don't actually have to arrive via Deep Strike (RAW is Law). So, Jump Infantry and Terminators who have the Deep Strike rule, can still walk onto the board, if they so wish. But, I mean, if you are Deep Striking, you only Scatter 1D6. Your Warlord can re-roll on the Archangel Traits.
*Models from this Detachment re-roll Reserves, and Karlean's Warlord Trait is fixed meaning you don't get to re-roll on the superb Archangel table.

Archangels Orbital Intervention Force: Formation. 3 Terminator Squads (any combination), must Deep Strike. Can Shoot and Run on the same turn they arrive. Yawn. The only thing that makes this playable is that you don't need max-sized squads to use it. Still, at least 600 Points locked in Reserves that don't come 'til Turn 2.

Archangels Sanguine Wing: Formation. 2x10-man Vanguard Squads (must have Jump Packs), and one 10-man Sternguard squad embarked in a Stormraven. Vanguard may take Power Weapons for free, Sternguard may take Combi-Weapons for free. This Formation is good. Note that nothing from this Formation can come on 'til at least Turn 2, and you've got a minimum investment of 800 Points, on the plus side, you get around 400 points worth of wargear for free, and that's not nothing.

Archangels Demi-Company: Formation. Terminator Captain (or Karlean*) or Chaplain, 2 Furiosos and 5 squads from the Archangel force which do not need to be max size. I'm not entirely sure why you'd want this Formation, when the Archangels Strike Force Detachment does exactly the same thing, but doesn't force you into taking specific units, but, the trade is you gain Stubborn. Being forced to buy models you may not want isn't worth the trade.
*Models from this Detachment re-roll Reserves, and Karlean's Warlord Trait is fixed meaning you don't get to re-roll on the superb Archangel table. It's a shame that the 1st Captain is so utterly useless in his own Company, but, maybe that's because the 1st Company already knows what they're doing and doesn't need him around. Karlean gives out 1st Company bonuses to the not-1st Company who actually need his experience? I don't know. Forge your own Narrative.

The Archangels: Formation. If you're maxing out the Detachment with 14 Elites slots, don't. Bring this Formation and for 0 extra points you do everything that the Detachment does, but you also get to make Reserve rolls from your first turn, and gain Stubborn. I mean, it's going to cost a butt-load of points, but, if you want to and/or can, then...Do it, maybe? This Formation is too impractical to be of any real use to anyone save Collectors.

Blooded Demi-Company: Half a Battle Company, and you don't even need max squad sizes. Gain +1 to your Initiative when you Charge. Since there's practically no useful bonus from this Formation, you're far better off taking a Baal Strike Force from the main Codex, and taking anything you want. The only reason that this seems to exist is to make sense of Dante's Avenging Host.
RAW: May not count as an Archangel Detachment.

Strike Force Mortalis: Loads of Death Company models, and a Stormraven (there will always be Stormravens). Models in this Detachment have pseudo-Rampage and Crusader. That's it.

Dante's Avenging Host: A Blooded Demi-Company, with Dante, Mephiston and a few Stormravens tacked on. All models from this Formation re-roll Reserves and Scatter 1D6", which they would do anyway if Dante is your Warlord, but if for whatever reason he's not... :smallconfused: Also, Troops units from this Formation have Objective Secured. If you've got ~2500 points to spare, there's no real reason you couldn't use this Formation. But, who has ~2500 Point games?

Flesh Tearers Detachments (Shield of Baal: Exterminatus)
Again, it's unclear if Flesh Tearer Detachments can still take Relics of Baal, and Flesh Tearer Relics at the same time.

Bones of Baelsor: Dreadnought (any type). Extra armour. Certain Tyranid weapons can only ever cause Glancing Hits.
Slayer's Wrath: HQ models only. Poisoned Boltgun.
Shield of Cretacia: HQ models only. Non-Terminator only. Attacks against the model lose the Poisoned special rule if they have it.

Nothing super-special here, and mostly Tyranid-specific. Lame.

Warlord Traits
Flesh Tearer Warlord can roll on the following;
1. Hatred isn't bad.
2. Rampage is.
3. The unit gains Hammer of Wrath, decent.
4. Crusader is lame
5. The unit gains Rage. Awesome.
6. FNP

Nowhere near as good as the Archangel table. Just go with regular Blood Angel Traits, or Strategic. Strategic is always good.

Flesh Tearers Strike Force: Detachment. 1-6 Fast. Everything else per CAD. If you roll 10 or more for Charge distance, gain Rage. Orks can suck it. But you lose Objective Secured. Well, if you want to spam Assault Squads, and are for some reason have limited Detachments, Flesh Tearers give you a bunch of Fast slots. Or, perhaps better, you can take a ton of Bike squads under the Blood Angel 'dex and give them FNP using Priests. Unlike the Blood Angels, the Flesh Tearers are not a Codex Chapter, and they'll field more Assault Squads if they want to.

FT Vanguard Strike Force: Formation. 3 Tacticals, Assault, Vanguard, Furioso. +1I when Charging, ignore penalties for disordered Charges. Neat.
Lysos Relief Force: Formation. Gabriel and friends. A 'Collector's Unit' that you should only ever have if you plan on playing the Narrative for Exterminatus totally straight.
Defenders of the Cathedrum: Ditto. At least this Formation has Counter-Attack.

Strike Force Razorwind: Formation. LRF and DotC (above). Gabriel Seth has a Fearless aura.

Allies
Blood Angels don't need Allies. Any points that could be spent on Allies is points that isn't being spent on secondary Detachments with more Sanguinary Priests. There are only two options for Blood Angel Allies;
A Battle Brother Psyker model that has access to Telepathy and/or a Jump Pack. Sentinels of Terra have the most efficient Librarians, and then spend minimum points on Scouts with Boltguns, who can re-roll To Hit thanks to Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics.
Imperial Knights. Because Knights.

Blood Angels as the Allied Detachment for other Imperial armies, again, comes down to the Sanguinary Priest. They're Independent Characters that hands out FNP. Space Marine Centurions and Space Wolf Thunderwolves will lol themselves on your opponents' tears.

Drasius

2014-12-21, 09:10 AM

Flesh Tearers Strike Force: Detachment. 1-6 Fast. Everything else per CAD. ... and give them FNP using Priests.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of 1-6 drop pods with not! marines coming out of them.

BA Priest with JP hanging with Celestine and Seraphim for FNP, 3 units of melta dominions in pods, a pair of heavy flamer retributors in pods, 2x Tacs in pod with melta/heavy flamer, stormraven for AA. Hell, you could even put a unit of repentia in the storm raven! And cram a SoB priest into the tac squads so they can re-roll their armour saves in combat once they charge. I can see this working, but I wouldn't be able to stop myself from calling it the red rage.

Nice review by the way Cheesegear.

Turalisj

2014-12-21, 01:03 PM

What would you suggest for a 500pt free for all using either necrons or blood angels? I know we will have dark elder and space wolves in the matchup.

Squark

2014-12-21, 01:42 PM

Probably not Blood Angels, since most of their schticks put them in harms way. That leaves Necrons. Well, the first question is how many troops do you need, and whether or not an HQ is mandatory. Restrictions on AV, flying, and other things are also really relevant here. 5 Deathmarks and an Annihilation Barge is probably a good base, but without more information, we can't help much.

Turalisj

2014-12-21, 02:29 PM

As far as I know, no limitations besides 500pts being the maximum.

Cheesegear

2014-12-21, 06:06 PM

As far as I know, no limitations besides 500pts being the maximum.

Two Monoliths. :smalltongue:

Turalisj

2014-12-21, 06:09 PM

I don't have $120 to buy two kits nor the time to put them together within two weeks :smalltongue:

Drasius

2014-12-21, 09:49 PM

I don't have $120 to buy two kits nor the time to put them together within two weeks :smalltongue:

I'm, not going to argue with money, but if I can get 4 Imperial knights (magnetised), a pair of storm Talons and a Stormraven from off the shelf to on the table in 3 days, you can make a pair of monoliths.

If you're model limited, what models do you have?

Requizen

2014-12-21, 11:19 PM

Not really. Sane people would assume One Per Army, but not even the Blood Angels section (more in depth above) has that rule. RAW, you can take any Relic from Exterminatus as many times as you want. The only sticking point seems to be whether or not 'Harbingers of [X]' still count as 'Crypteks', as Harbingers don't have separate statblocks to Crypteks and are therefore not new models, however, you upgrade 'to' a Harbinger, meaning that the model is no longer a Cryptek and is instead, something else, even if its statblock doesn't change.

RAW, you can take 3 God Shackles and turn the C'Tan Shard into a T10/S10 MC and use the Formation to attach a Veil of Darkness Despairtek and another Harbinger to deep strike anywhere on the board for kicks. I expect this to be FAQ'd very fast, as it is complete cheese and turns the Shard from a mediocre situational pick into nearly the same level of power as the Transcendent C'Tan.

In fact, right now, the thread title more corresponds to this than the TC'tan itself.

bluntpencil

2014-12-22, 12:07 AM

Regarding Angel's Fury Spearhead:

Does it say Deep Strike Reserve for a reason?

Does this prevent the Tacticals charging out using Skies of Fury?

Cheesegear

2014-12-22, 02:33 AM

Does it say Deep Strike Reserve for a reason?
Does this prevent the Tacticals charging out using Skies of Fury?

Truth. I missed that, so yes; It does prevent the Tacticals from Charging. So, yeah. I don't know what to do with Angel's Fury.

x3 Stormravens = 600 Points
x30 Tacticals = 420 Points, plus upgrades.

1000 Points and change in Reserve, that might come on, Turn 1, granted, you have re-rolls, but you can still fail, and failing that one roll can actually lose you the game straight on the first turn. You need to somehow have +1 to your Reserve rolls, for a re-rollable 3+.

A Land Raider Prometheus is 270 Points, unfortunately, isn't allowed as part of the Archangels Detachment so no love there. Your other - slightly more sane - option, is a Damocles Command Rhino at only 75 Points. So, we're sorted there for our re-rollable 3+ Reserves on Turn 1. Zooming Fliers then move 36" onto the board (which should cover most of the board), then you can use models in Drop Pods to Charge, because 'Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve', indicating that even though they're embarked in a Vehicle, they're still in 'Deep Strike Reserve'.

Blood Angels, CAD
(W) Brother Corbulo - 120 Points
(IA2[2E]) Damocles Command Rhino - 75 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 115 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 115 Points

Terminator Assault Squad (x5); Thunder Hammer and Storm Shields - 225 Points

Drop Pod - 35 Points

Blood Angels, Angel's Fury Spearhead Force Formation (White Dwarf)
Tactical Squad (x10); Teleport Homer - 140 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Teleport Homer - 140 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Teleport Homer - 140 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points
Stormraven Gunship; Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 200 Points

Inquisition
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor; x3 Servo Skulls, Empyrean Brain Mines - 44 Points

Total: 1749 Points

A lot of people are throwing around how good Charging after Deep Strike is (because it's in White Dwarf and everyone can see it), and don't get me wrong, it's very good. But nobody seems to be talking about hard, actual lists, and I think that is because 1000+ points locked in Reserves is prohibitively expensive and just asking to lose the game at the end of Turn 1 when you have no units on the board. In any case, I sincerely believe that the Formation doesn't work unless you have 2000 points to play with. If you're going second, the only thing you have on the board is the Rhino, and, well, it's a Rhino, it just isn't going to last very long.

But, yeah. The Angel's Fury's rules appears not to apply to itself, so the Guide has been altered.

EDIT: Speaking of which, there were a few Guides written last thread that I didn't keep up with (because it wasn't my job, then :smalltongue:), if you've written a Guide last thread and its not in the current OP, sing out. Better yet, provide a link to the Guide you wrote.

LeSwordfish

2014-12-22, 08:18 AM

I heard over the weekend that the "you lose if nothing on the board" rule had vanished during the transition from 6th ed to 7th. Is that true?

Timberwolf

2014-12-22, 08:23 AM

That would be useful and good and therefore I can't see it.

I don't think it has in all seriousness, it's probably supremely well hidden in a corner somewhere.

Cheesegear

2014-12-22, 08:55 AM

I heard over the weekend that the "you lose if nothing on the board" rule had vanished during the transition from 6th ed to 7th. Is that true?

No. Page 133. Second column, first paragraph.

Requizen

2014-12-22, 11:32 AM

Hergh. So much of my future purchases/projects are tied up in how the Necron codex turns out. If it's good, I'll want to focus on building/painting my robots, but if it doesn't interest me that much, I'll be playing with some Daemons or maybe even trying out new armies. I mean, it'd have to be pretty bad for me to drop Necrons altogether, but if it doesn't jump out at me, I'll be more inclined to do something else slightly more fun.

I really hope it's cool. I'm honestly surprised we haven't heard any rumors yet, even sketchy, unsubstantiated ones. Holiday season is a real drag for my plastic addiction (until I unwrap some from the more hobby-accepting relatives).

Maybe I'll check out Dark Angels. No one here plays DA, and alpha striking Deathwing with Belial seems fun as heck.

I mean, CSM or more Daemons would be more practical, but that's not what this hobby is about :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2014-12-22, 05:34 PM

re: Sanguine Wing Formation (again...or still?)

"But [Cheese], don't you main like, Pedro and twenty-plus Sternguard? How many points is that in your Reserves?"

Around 1000, but who's counting? The difference is, every game, half of them will come onto the board, guaranteed, first turn - not most games, every game. The Sanguine Wing, on the other hand, has a ~25% chance to not show up at all. One out of every four games, your Sanguine Wing just isn't going to show up. In a one day, 3-game tournament, you might get lucky. In a 'weekender' 4-5 games, not so much.

But, you're also ignoring my second point. I'm not against Stormravens, they're one of the best things Blood Angels have. I'm not against Tactical Squads either, especially when they keep ObSec (I play Imperial Fists and/or Ultramarines. I will never, ever underestimate a Tac Squad). I'm also criticising trying to 'combo' with the Sanguine Wing's Assault-after-Deep Strike. You don't just have 1000 Points in Reserve in your Sanguine Wing, you've got whatever else is in Reserve waiting to Deep Strike on top of them, and that's the problem. My twenty-plus Sternguard is it. That's my Reserves, and doesn't rely on any other part of my army to function. Even if I throw a Space Potato into my list, the Stormtalon isn't reliant on the Sternguard to be effective. Unless of course, I use my Sternguard to alpha strike an Interceptor unit (ie: Riptide) and botch all my dice rolls.

Drasius

2014-12-22, 06:16 PM

Speaking of which, there were a few Guides written last thread that I didn't keep up with (because it wasn't my job, then :smalltongue:), if you've written a Guide last thread and its not in the current OP, sing out. Better yet, provide a link to the Guide you wrote.

Vaz's Guide to the Mechanicum in 30K: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421

Drasius' guide to Imperial Knights: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18511698&postcount=1383

Vaz goes through the new Fighter Ace table: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350

Vaz guides us through Capaigns in the HH with Book 4; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18477638&postcount=1269

Vaz tells us about relics for each legion in HH: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471115&postcount=1233

Vaz writes a guide to the IG in ye olde times Solar Auxilia in 30k: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234

Vaz also walks us through how to be a Knight in the Mechanicum's service in 30k with the Questoris Knights: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235

Also, in case ... Wraith? Ever gets around to updating the Batreps again;

LeSwordfish's Marines vs Orks and Marines Vs Space Wolves: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18528109&postcount=1437

LeSwordfish again with a doubles game of Marines & Tau vs Space Sharks/Space wolves; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18477638&postcount=1269

I think that's about it for guides, but I only got to Page 27 or so before I saw that CG had updated the SW and DE, so I figured I should be OK from there.

Hergh. So much of my future purchases/projects are tied up in how the Necron codex turns out. If it's good, I'll want to focus on building/painting my robots, but if it doesn't interest me that much, I'll be playing with some Daemons or maybe even trying out new armies. I mean, it'd have to be pretty bad for me to drop Necrons altogether, but if it doesn't jump out at me, I'll be more inclined to do something else slightly more fun.

I really hope it's cool. I'm honestly surprised we haven't heard any rumors yet, even sketchy, unsubstantiated ones. Holiday season is a real drag for my plastic addiction (until I unwrap some from the more hobby-accepting relatives).

Maybe I'll check out Dark Angels. No one here plays DA, and alpha striking Deathwing with Belial seems fun as heck.

I mean, CSM or more Daemons would be more practical, but that's not what this hobby is about :smallbiggrin:

If you don't want to waste time on an army that's not good, don't pick up DA or CSM just yet. Rumours are coming out that the next campaign is going to be Dark Vengence 2: Heretic Boogaloo, focussing on DA vs Crimson Slaughter, so you might get some good formations to make what're widely regarded as the 2 worst amries a bit more playable.

As for 'Cron rumours, they've been out for a while, but the general feeling is a slight nerf to a couple of things, not many buffs to existing terrible stuff and no new models. Codex release rumoured for Jan 31st.

Timberwolf

2014-12-22, 06:47 PM

I tried to make the Angels Fury formation work at least on paper and i was happy enough with the results to at least try it in my next game. The only working Internet I have right this second is my phone so I'm sure I'll be forgiven with a limited precis of it. In my opinion, Cheesegear is correct, it's a gimmick and it needs 2000 points, but I don't think it's as bad as all that.

Basically, I decided that 2 units of scouts cowering on multiple levels of buildings with camo cloaks should last long enough to get the unit in if the rerolled 3 up fails. To back them up, I had 4 missile launcher devastators with a couple of ablative bodies. With suitable use of cover and Los blockers, I am confident in their ability to survive the chance that it doesn't come in until turn 2.

Lurking in deep strike there's a unit of death company and a unit of sanguinary guard with a jump pack priest with Angels wing to mess up interceptor fire.

The tac marines themselves, I decided that it's an 5/6 chance of an objectives game after all and 30 objective secured marines appearing, hopefully unscathed, mid to late game on what objectives there are is not to be ignored. I decided to forgo the heavy weapons for Melta guns, grav guns and plasma pistols to keep as mobile as possible and that I wanted to be shooting, not getting bogged down in fights. I loathe flamers in general but yes, heavy flamers would be nice.

I know this does not address Cheesegears objections to the formation, but it's good enough for me to try it out for myself and see invite can be made to work. People play worse odds every day. I'm normally adverse to gambling, but this I'll try.

Just as a general note for the blood angels guide, blood talons are basically fists with shred now, they're strength X2 and ap2. Not as dreadful as they might have been.

Cheesegear

2014-12-22, 06:57 PM

Vaz guides us through Capaigns in the HH with Book 4; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18477638&postcount=1269

I don't think that link links to what you think it links to. :smallamused:

Otherwise, well done for finding all of that, because I wouldn't have. Although given what Vaz has done, I really need to get around to updating my Legion Guides, especially 'cause Forge World did actually get around to updating it for 7th, and now my comments about Lorgar don't make any sense.

Also, in case ... Wraith? Ever gets around to updating the Batreps again

I believe it was Winterwind who did that. He's not been seen in the 40K thread/s for a while.

As for 'Cron rumours, they've been out for a while, but the general feeling is a slight nerf to a couple of things

Only ones I know of are Night Scythes getting a points increase, Doom Scythes being worded better, and Tesla dropping to one additional hit instead of two. However all of those just seem like common sense balance changes rather than actual 'rumours'.

Just as a general note for the blood angels guide, blood talons are basically fists with shred now, they're strength X2 and ap2. Not as dreadful as they might have been.

I do remember you saying this before, and I thought I would do a quick fix 'in the morning', then I went to sleep and forgot. Anyway, 10 Points to upgrade your Dreadnought to Shred doesn't seem like a terrible idea, it's still a Dreadnought though.

Timberwolf

2014-12-22, 07:01 PM

Yes, that was attempt 1 at this that I screwed up by forgetting formations are a different organisation. I deleted it for further work. Didn't know if you'd seen it.

Drasius

2014-12-22, 07:38 PM

I don't think that link links to what you think it links to. :smallamused:

Otherwise, well done for finding all of that, because I wouldn't have. Although given what Vaz has done, I really need to get around to updating my Legion Guides, especially 'cause Forge World did actually get around to updating it for 7th, and now my comments about Lorgar don't make any sense.

I believe it was Winterwind who did that. He's not been seen in the 40K thread/s for a while.

I obviously didn't ctrl-c after I clicked the link :smallredface:

Please find the correct link here; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471110&postcount=1232

Wraith, Winterwind, close enough. I got 4 of the letters right, and it at least started with a W.

How goes your painting mission by the way?

Requizen

2014-12-22, 07:43 PM

Yeah, I guess it's not logical to start an army that could change soon - considering that they'll be the two oldest codices after Necrons get updated, even rumors aside it's pretty logical that they'll get something not long after.

I guess the logical thing would be to continue working on my Daemons. The quest is to make a super fast list with lots of threats, though I'm not sure how that'll turn out. Daemon Princes (and occasionally Be'lakor) have been great, but also get focused down at the slightest provocation. Hopefully the Screamers/Heralds of Tzeentch will take some focus off of them, and then maybe add Seekers as well? Lots of quick, scary things moving up the field, a good portion of which is fairly expendible.

Actually, Flamers are looking pretty nifty lately as well. I was originally extremely turned off by Warpflame, but the sheer amount of templates (and also, therefore, overwatching autohits) you can put out is potentially insane. And on such quick and fairly sturdy bodies as well.

Caxton

2014-12-23, 12:03 AM

Vaz's Guide to the Mechanicum in 30K: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421

Drasius' guide to Imperial Knights: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18511698&postcount=1383

Vaz goes through the new Fighter Ace table: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350

Vaz guides us through Capaigns in the HH with Book 4; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18477638&postcount=1269

Vaz tells us about relics for each legion in HH: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471115&postcount=1233

Vaz writes a guide to the IG in ye olde times Solar Auxilia in 30k: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234

Vaz also walks us through how to be a Knight in the Mechanicum's service in 30k with the Questoris Knights: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235

Also, in case ... Wraith? Ever gets around to updating the Batreps again;

LeSwordfish's Marines vs Orks and Marines Vs Space Wolves: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18528109&postcount=1437

LeSwordfish again with a doubles game of Marines & Tau vs Space Sharks/Space wolves; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18477638&postcount=1269

I think that's about it for guides, but I only got to Page 27 or so before I saw that CG had updated the SW and DE, so I figured I should be OK from there.

If you don't want to waste time on an army that's not good, don't pick up DA or CSM just yet. Rumours are coming out that the next campaign is going to be Dark Vengence 2: Heretic Boogaloo, focussing on DA vs Crimson Slaughter, so you might get some good formations to make what're widely regarded as the 2 worst amries a bit more playable.

As for 'Cron rumours, they've been out for a while, but the general feeling is a slight nerf to a couple of things, not many buffs to existing terrible stuff and no new models. Codex release rumoured for Jan 31st.

If there is a desire for it, I could update and upgrade the GK guide I wrote a good while ago. It wasn't quite complete.

Cheesegear

2014-12-23, 12:57 AM

How goes your painting mission by the way?

Terribly, actually. I've got the three Drop Pods done (painted as I put them together), but the Infantry models haven't got very far. I've done a full squad, sans combi-weapons, so that's something. But then I got sidetracked and decided that I wanted to finally paint my Land Raider Terminus, and convert up something big that I've wanted to do for ages (you might say I've wanted to do it since Horus Heresy III, in fact), but I spent this year's tax return on bills, so I had to wait 'til my Christmas bonus before I really had the spare funds to do it.

So, yeah. While I am doing something other than painting 30 Sternguard, it should still be finished by the 27th December, and I'll post pics when I'm done, 'cause I'd had to spoil the surprise.
(Though I did drop a big hint in this very post for anyone who knows anything about my hobby)

Drasius

2014-12-23, 02:32 AM

Terribly, actually. ... I got sidetracked ... my ... Horus Heresy .

So, yeah. While I am doing something other than painting 30 Sternguard, it should still be finished by the 27th December, and I'll post pics when I'm done, 'cause I'd had to spoil the surprise.
(Though I did drop a big hint in this very post for anyone who knows anything about my hobby)

As I was looking back through the threads for when Cheesegear was asking for advice on what to buy from, FW, I happened across this from Eldan;

Fitting two Flyrants into 1000 points is quite a feat.

I find it amusing the power level difference between now and then (31/7/14 for those of you playing at home) for the 'Nids when you can now take 4 at 1000 and remain battleforged.

Eldan

2014-12-23, 02:36 AM

Hm. That can fit, can't it. 200 and a bit points for each one, and then just four units of spores, I assume?

Cheesegear

2014-12-23, 03:17 AM

As I was looking back through the threads for when Cheesegear was asking for advice on what to buy from, FW

Oh, it's not from Forge World per se. It's for the end-of-year conversion comp, and I plan to win it with flying colours.

Drasius

2014-12-23, 04:30 AM

Hm. That can fit, can't it. 200 and a bit points for each one, and then just four units of spores, I assume?

Yep

Tyranid CAD #1
240 - Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Twin-Linked Devourer w/Brain Leach Worms, Electro Shock Grubs
230 - Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Twin-Linked Devourer w/Brain Leach Worms

15 - Mucolid Spore
15 - Mucolid Spore

Tyranid CAD #2
240 - Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Twin-Linked Devourer w/Brain Leach Worms, Electro Shock Grubs
230 - Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Twin-Linked Devourer w/Brain Leach Worms

15 - Mucolid Spore
15 - Mucolid Spore

1000

Granted it's pure spam but vs anything but 'Crons or maybe a very heavily focused skyfire Tau, I'm not sure there's much point even rolling dice.

Might be worth downgrading a pair of the T-L Devourers to Deathspitters and picking up E-Grubs so all 4 can threaten vehicles.

Oh, it's not from Forge World per se. It's for the end-of-year conversion comp, and I plan to win it with flying colours.

Are you making Rogal Dorn, 'cause that'd be awesome. I look forward to seeing it greatly. I'm going to enter my Heldrake that I finally got around to painting in ours, just need to put a couple of finishing touches on the base and Bob's your aunty. Going to struggle to get my oath of moment done unfortunately, which is unfortunate, as it's the lightly converted forgefiend that got made and put to one side just after the drake, so it'll be nice to have them all painted up, even if I liked them better unpainted.

Edit; As I type, an email from forgeworld just came through with their latest jigsaw pic.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/ForgeworldJigsaw_zps943a3a0f.jpg~original

Double Edit; Eye r knot gud spellar.

Cheesegear

2014-12-23, 07:38 AM

Edit; As I type, an email from forgeworld just came through with their latest jigsaw pic.

Aww, snap. Alexis Polux - Lord of the space pirates - is is in the house teleporting to your bridge. Take the fight to the enemy and cripple their flight staff, we'll leave nothing but Hulks. Our fists will run crimson with the blood of traitors! If an enemy tries to surrender, no quarter! Break their jaws before they can speak their lies. Have you ever seen a pirate with a Power Fist!? POW! Right in the kisser! Argh! Space Pirates!!!

Dorn wouldn't approve. But Dorn's not here. YOOOU ARRRE A PIRATE.

Vaz

2014-12-23, 08:53 AM

Thanks for digging those out Drasius.

Eldan

2014-12-23, 09:13 AM

Haven't posted any pictures in a while, but after my diorama "Mawloc eating a tank" got second place in my store's painting competition this summer, I'm hoping to score decently with this one, too (even if it was weird to make a flyer for an entirely tunnel-based hive. I hope I managed.)

http://i62.tinypic.com/wk0lls.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2eobj8h.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/fkp2c0.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/28s7xqv.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/102waxl.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2zxz34k.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/rwqk49.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/1zqvf3r.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2hhmzj9.jpg

Requizen

2014-12-23, 10:35 AM

Haven't posted any pictures in a while, but after my diorama "Mawloc eating a tank" got second place in my store's painting competition this summer, I'm hoping to score decently with this one, too (even if it was weird to make a flyer for an entirely tunnel-based hive. I hope I managed.)

cool pics were here

That's pretty sweet! The pose and paint job is fantastic, the only thing I could say is that maybe the base could look more like it just was "bursted out of", like more debris or flying bits. But the Crone itself is pretty fantastic.

Eldan

2014-12-23, 10:43 AM

Yeah, I'm redoing the base, actually. I was out of sand, when I did it, so it looks a bit flat in the middle. I tried a few ways to do flying bits of rock, but nothing looked good.

The best thing is that the Crone is not actually connected to the base, it's just held there by a bit of green stuff that the tail fits into. It balances astonishingly well.

Cheesegear

2014-12-23, 11:59 PM

Well, the bad news is my order didn't come in, so I don't have the parts to finish my project, which means the project wont be finished until next week or so. However, it's 'Christmas week', and it's totally fair for mail orders not to come in on time, especially last-minute orders like mine. So, I'm not too bothered.

The good news is that I don't need to spend the next two-three days (including Christmas) frantically trying to cobble together my miniature in time for a comp.

Drasius

2014-12-24, 04:18 AM

Merry Xmas from forgeworld

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/ForgeworldJigsaw2_zpsad573e4c.jpg~original

It is indeed Alexis Pollux. One of the resident fluff bunnies was convinced it was going to be Sigismund, and will be quite dissapointed to find out outherwise.

Cheesegear

2014-12-24, 04:26 AM

It is indeed Alexis Pollux. One of the resident fluff bunnies was convinced it was going to be Sigismund, and will be quite dissapointed to find out outherwise.

If he was a real Fluff bunny, he'd know that Sigismund doesn't wear that kind of armour, and doesn't carry a Storm Shield, both of which could be seen in the puzzle picture. :smallwink:

But the full picture, also shows a Power Fist and 405 (CDV) on the Shield making it a dead giveaway. I want it. I want it so bad. So what if I already have a Captain with Power Fist and Storm Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17640008&postcount=1241), I'll bench him.

Vaz

2014-12-24, 06:48 AM

I love the CDV touch on the shield.

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-24, 12:21 PM

I have to say that I am severely disappointed with the new Cities of Death rules as outlined in Shield of Baal: Leviathan. Stratagems are gone. Poof, up in smoke, not a thing, kaput, done and over. Instead, it's just a variant on Maelstrom of War with a different Tactical Objectives deck - that they apparently don't sell, so it's back to rolling dice on the table if anyone wants to play it. Oh, and use six buildings and/or ruins, because you have to place your objectives in buildings and/or ruins.

They cut down the Planetstrike rules considerably in The Red Waaagh!!!, but they didn't get rid of the defining portion of the game mode. This is just lazy design, through and through. I want my artillery spotters back. :smallannoyed:

Wext

2014-12-24, 02:01 PM

Does anyone here have any experience writing campaigns and such? I seen there's been people playing Sanctus Reach and that stuff, so if I could get some help that would be awesome. My buddies playing the Orks and Nids are hoping to do something in a Space Hulk with me for the story, and either advice or an impartial GM would be appreciated.

Adrastos42

2014-12-24, 05:19 PM

[Cities of Death sadness]

Well, that's disappointing. Guess I'll stick to the old book then.

Does anyone here have any experience writing campaigns and such?

Not much experience, but I am in the middle of one at the moment. Best piece of advice I can give from our experiences so far is to be careful how you balance storytelling with, well, balance. We wondered why the guy designing the campaign kept losing until we realised that he'd, while making a great story, designed the last few missions so that they screwed him over. And then almost did it again after having it pointed out:D

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-24, 06:53 PM

Well, that's disappointing. Guess I'll stick to the old book then.
I could see hybridizing the two systems, but they're just that - two different systems. If you like Tactical Objectives (and I've found them not bad, with the addition of the houserule that you can immediately discard and replace any objective you draw that you cannot physically achieve due to your opponent's army composition) then the Cities of Death Objectives are fine and dandy, but in the new rules there is literally nothing else to the game type - it's just dressed up Maelstrom of War. And they stopped printing actual Cities of Death in favor of this dressed up Maelstrom of War, that's buried in a $66 (softcover) campaign supplement that not only doesn't play to everyone's army, but doesn't even support three of the four armies involved with additional rules. :smallannoyed:

I never had the first Death From the Skies supplement, so I don't know what was in there that didn't make it into the Fighter Aces tables, but I'm the only one in my meta who fields flyers in significant numbers anyway, so I don't think I'm going to see much use out of that to begin with. :smallamused:

Wraith

2014-12-24, 09:14 PM

I believe it was Winterwind who did that. He's not been seen in the 40K thread/s for a while.

I compiled Threads 1 to 13, Winterwind did 14 to... 18 or so, I think. Not that I'm demanding citation, or anything, just stating that it wasn't the work of a single person. :smallsmile:

Requizen

2014-12-25, 02:44 AM

Hey all, hope your holiday season is happy and full of cheer/plastic minis/both!

Drasius

2014-12-25, 03:16 AM

Cheesegear

2014-12-25, 05:16 AM

I compiled Threads 1 to 13, Winterwind did 14 to... 18 or so, I think. Not that I'm demanding citation, or anything, just stating that it wasn't the work of a single person. :smallsmile:

Well, whoever's doing it, I've always got a link ready to go in the OP.

In a stunning show of actually doing something for a change, I finally got my Heldrake ready for the conversion comp tomorrow. Now to get my forgefiend ready for Oath of Moment on the 27th. Hopefully pics tomorrow when I can get some decent lighting.

My oath was getting 1000 Points painted during December. Fail. :smallfrown:
My conversion for the comp on the 27th? Also fail. :smallfrown::smallfrown:

Though I will maintain that the latter isn't actually my fault.

Grim Portent

2014-12-25, 05:45 PM

Merry christmas/Happy holidays everyone.

I've got a question to ask from an unusual perspective for this thread. I got an Imperial Knight from my parents and I'm going to paint it up all Khorney and spiky and I'm not sure which gun to go for. This is probably going to be the centerpiece of a Khornate themed guard army so I want it to scream Khorne.

So in your own opinions which gun sounds more like Khorne's thing, a rapid firing battlecannon blowing enemies to bloody chunks or a melta cannon blasting enemies into blood mist in a flash of incandescent fury?

Eldan

2014-12-25, 06:00 PM

Hey all, hope your holiday season is happy and full of cheer/plastic minis/both!

Didn't get any new minis, but I painted some few hundred points yesterday, so yaaay!

(Another flier, but this one with a less extravagant base, a toxicrene, a tyrannocyte and a sporocyte).

So, all done for the campaign finale on the 27th.

Vaz

2014-12-25, 06:26 PM

Shotgun firing Explosive Sword Grenade Launcher sounds about right for Khorne.

Swordsplosion (http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=aV0Ao7fnKkg)!

iyaerP

2014-12-25, 09:33 PM

Cheesegear

2014-12-25, 10:45 PM

2014, a review

The year opened fairly weakly, with Tyranids coming out of the gate first. The book was met with overwhelming negativity, not because it was weak, but because nothing really changed. Weak units were still weak, and strong units were still strong. There was nothing really to get excited about, because whatever you already had, was probably what you were going to use. However, there were two big game-changers in the book that nobody really noticed because they weren't HQ or Troops (the units you most commonly build your army around); Hive Crones and Exocrines. Hive Crones were just a fairly average Flying Monstrous Creature whose importance wouldn't be known for the next several months, and Exocrines finally gave Tyranids some invaluable AP2 shooting attacks that weren't terrible. The main problem with Tyranids wasn't the book, but also that Eldar and Tau were really strong, and could wipe off whatever Tyranids put on the board without too much hassle, and the Tyranid book was largely swept under the rug.

Fast forward to March, where we're given something new pretty much every week; First up we got Legion of the Damned, utterly reviled by some, as it was labelled as a 'Codex' and that got people very excited, only to be let down when Legion gave us nothing new, then people were even more upset when it was discovered (within the first few hours of release) that Legion could not be a stand-alone army, if you used The Legion by themselves, they would lose on Turn 1. Again, another release that was swept under the rug because nobody could see its value. Very soon after Legion we were given Crimson Slaughter, which gave every unit in the Chaos Space Marine book, Fear, for 0 points. Due to the fact that nothing in the book actually changed anything, Crimson Slaughter was only used as a way to get four Heldrakes in a Chaos army. Then we got Imperial Knights the best or worst thing to happen to 40K in a long time, depending on who you were. But it was quickly discovered that as good as Knights were, they flat-out couldn't deal with Fliers, and again, turned out to be really weak on their own. However, at this time, Tau was still going strong, and any Flier/FMC put on the board was just going to get shot off the board, so Knights were relatively safe...For now. Then we got Militarum Tempestus which gave us an early shot of the Taurox Prime, but nothing really stood out.

April opened with Astra Militarum, with a lot of shake-ups. Comissar Yarrick and Knight Commander Pask were amazing. Chimeras got a hard nerfing, and Vendettas were almost costed out of the game. Leman Russes' points costs were shuffled around and the Guard were given Wyverns. The standard 'Leafblower' list was no longer viable, and for the first time in a long time, we actually saw 'hybrid' Guard armies of Tanks and Infantry in roughly equal number because 'Eight Chimeras' was no longer viable. We finally saw how the Guard were meant to be played, and it was actually kind of cool. But, when we were given the 'main' Codex, we also noticed that the Storm Trooper Codex had completely different (and better) Orders to give, and we saw the value of taking Storm Troopers outside of the main book, and running from the Storm Trooper book. Unfortunately, we're in 6th Ed., and limited to two Detachments, Primary and Allies, and frankly, nobody had room in their heart for Storm Troopers when the Guard had much better uses for the Allies slot.

Then May came around and told us we'd been playing the game wrong for the last two years. 7th Edition is here, and it is awesome. Several changes were made; Assaulting through Cover gave a -2" to Charge range, making Assault even less viable. But, Flying Monstrous Creatures in 7th Ed., only have to take one Grounding check per turn, at the end of the Shooting phase and they must have taken an Unsaved Wound, not just a Hit. This severely crippled Tau, as now they couldn't 'wing' an MC, then shoot it to **** when it fell down. No, if you want kill and FMC, you need to actually kill it in the air, and Tau weren't so good at that, since MCs are not Vehicles and don't die in one shot, Tau were even worse at it, because even if the MC did come down, Tau sure weren't going to Assault it in the next phase, no sir. In the FMC's next turn, they can just go back up into the air like nothing happened, and you can try Skyfire again. However, while people were upset that you needed to Glide to be able to Assault, people didn't kind of catch on with how that interacted with the opponent's shooting phase; If you are Grounded at the end of the Shooting phase when nothing can hurt you anyway, it's your turn next, where you can immediately Charge, suddenly being Grounded was good. Turns out, monsters could stay in the air almost indefinitely, and if/when they are shot down, they Charge, or simply start Swooping again, no problems here.
Another change to 7th Ed., was the Psychic Phase. Manifesting Powers is now completely different to 6th Ed.'s Leadership check. Manifesting Powers is hard. But the biggest change was the addition of Sanctic and Malefic Daemonology - mostly Malefic. Malefic allows models with the Daemon rule to Summon new units without problems. Not Chaos Daemons, but any Daemon, while not having problems Sanctic was specifically only reserved for Grey Knights. Suddenly, Crimson Slaughter almost made sense, as a particular item gave a Sorcerer the Daemon rule and could therefore cast Malefic as much as they want. Unfortunately, we hit a problem...
The Allies Chart was massively changed, particularly in regards to Come the Apocalypse, where you can now Ally any army with any other army, there's problems, but you can do it. This was particularly jarring for Crimson Slaughter as they don't use the Allies Matrix, they have words, which specifically exempt them from Allying with anyone that isn't Chaos Marines. Given that Chaos Marines could Ally with Daemons, this was the much better choice, once again, Crimson Slaughter almost has a chance to shine, but, with Daemons being so strong due to Malefic, well, the choice was an easy one. But, the changes to the Allies Matrix also hit Tau and Eldar really hard. Tau were no longer the bee's knees because they didn't interact with anyone in any meaningful way, and Eldar were shafted into only Allying with Dark Eldar (which is what they were doing anyway, really). With Tau on the outs, and Flying Monstrous Creatures suddenly getting much safer as a result, Chaos Daemons - with the Daemon rule - are very, very strong. However, do you know who else has FMCs? Tyranids. Tyranids were coming back, and they were going to come back, hard.

But, lastly, perhaps the biggest change, was the amount of Detachments that anyone could take. We were no longer limited to 'Primiary + Allies'. We could do anything we wanted. We could have three Allied Detachments, four! As many as you want! But the other huge change was that we were no longer limited to a single FOC, the FOC was practically meaningless, and in case you missed it; We could do anything we wanted! We were no longer limited, and we no longer had to resort to 'tricks' in order to get four Heldrakes, Riptides or similar, we could just do it. If we were willing to pay extra unit taxes, we could just have the units we wanted, in any number we wanted them in. The changes to Detachments also meant that Legion of the Damned and Storm Troopers could actually be used without feeling like we'd just gimped ourselves - not least because Guard were also hit pretty hard by 7th Ed.'s Allies Matrix - in fact, Legion and Storm Troopers were actually really strong under 7th Ed. Extra Detachments also gave Tyranids extra slots that they'd been missing out on for the entirety of 6th Ed., while Chaos Marines were 'tricking' us into giving them four Heldrake slots, Tyranids were stuck with the three Fast slots they had...Not anymore. Have as many slots as you can pay for, and Tyranids can pay for a lot of things.

In case you didn't notice, Tyranids immediately shot up to the top tables. Flying Monstrous Creatures...Well, fly, and they have two Flying units with access to Haywire weapons, meaning that they can Fly around Knights indefinitely, pinging them with Haywire weapons until they fall down. But with many of the sweeping changes to 7th, we saw Escalation and Stronghold Assault actually being used in the game...Fine. Tyranids have a Flying Gargantuan which is one of the most invincible things in the game, and using Stronghold Assault, Tyranids could plonk Tervigons on a Skyshield and just pump out Troops until the game was over. Whichever meta you played in, Tyranids could find a way to triumph. The only problem for Tyranid players was in trying to suss out their own meta, because there was no longer a mono-build that people could just look up online, many Tyranid players found themselves scrambling for what to do, because for the first time in two years, they'd had to think for themselves because there wasn't a 'One, True Build' for Tyranids anymore, because everyone was trying to put their own 'spin' on 7th Ed.'s 'do whatever you want' policy to make it slightly more easier to deal with.

All these individual 'pocket metas' making their 'own' game were actually doing themselves a disservice. It was quickly discovered that changing the rules of the game, doesn't fix anything, it merely creates a new meta, without access to all the tools that each Codex is given, many Codecies simply fall behind - hence the reason for Allies - and nowhere was this more obvious than in the next Codex...

Our first 7th Ed. Codex was Orks. Orks came out swinging. But, due to the changes to the rules many people were making in early-7th, Orks were simply whitewashed out of the game. Orks really, really, really needed the 'unlimited Detachments' rule to function, since to be playable, an Ork army pretty much needed three or more HQs to be any kind of playable, and the strongest unit in the Ork book - the Stompa - was simply locked out of the game. So while people were fielding three or more Knights (that's 18+ HPs), Orks couldn't field their strongest unit against Knights and were simply locked out because of the players - not GW - putting in their own arbitrary rules about Lords of War. GW gave us Escalation with the expectation that we would use it. After Orks we got Waaagh! Ghazgkull, which was basically just a book of Formations...Oh, okay...This is where the game is going. Use more Detachments!

In July, we got Red Waaagh!, which for some (including myself), was the best thing that GW had ever written. GW were getting back into Forging a Narrative which they hadn't done for a long, long time...Not really since the Eye of Terror campaign back in 3rd Ed. Red Waaagh! was met with much applause for the people who could use it; Imperial Guard, Orks and Knights. Similar to the Apocalypse War Zone series, but without the Apocalypse stamp on the front making everything in it pretty much unusable. However, the game-changer in Red Waaagh! was the Adamantine Lance, Imperial Knights gained a bunch of re-rolls for taking the units that they were going to take anyway, for 0 points, and we were given Gerantius to boot (pun unintended)! If this was the 'new meta', we had to start using Lords of War and Fortifications. We just had to. It was readily apparent that Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures were brutal. Necrons came out swinging first, with Transcendent C'Tans having an Invulnerable save. But, as Tyranid players got their conversions off the ground (pun unintended, again), and got their Forge World money ready to go, Tyranid players began dropping Harridans, and we were terrified. But, Ork players knew all along that they could play this game, and were psyched to go! Enter Stompas with Kustom Force Fields getting repaired to full Hull Points every turn. This is happening. Deal with it.

Shortly after Red Waaagh!, we got Space Wolves. Like Tyranids before, seven months ago, nothing about Space Wolves changed. Strong units were still relatively strong, and weak units were still weak. But a month or two after release, we had people getting together the army that they'd been building; Hover-mode Fliers in their Troops slots. Of all the things that could have happened, it was Space Wolves' turn to be a mono-build. How weird is that!? But then, quickly, we got Champions of Fenris, which gave us a Detachment type that doesn't even need to field Troops, making Space Wolves really, really, really good Allies. But, not as Primary Detachment, right? One of the most disappointing things to happen in a long time, is that Space Wolves were no longer a top-tier army. Where did Jaws go? What happened to Long Fangs? Blood Claws are finally good? Well, that must mean that everything else is terrible, right? Then we got Hour of the Wolf, which seemed a step backwards from Red Waaagh!, not a big step, but a small one nonetheless. Nothing from HotW seemed amazing, and we moved on with our lives...

Except we didn't. After the weak release of Space Wolves, we got Grey Knights. Nobody wanted to talk about anything other the fact that Inquisition units were removed from the Codex. But, that was going to happen anyway, right? We thought at the time when Inquisition was printed that just reprinting units was stupid and dumb (which was only reinforced with Legion of the Damned, remember?). People expected Inquisition units to go away, but there was a certain crowd who totally thought that that wouldn't happen, and, as it turns out, that certain crowd turned out to be really vocal. But, for the people who weren't spamming 3-man Acolyte units in Razorbacks, they were actually really happy with their Codex. It wasn't a mono-build like Space Wolves and there were still plenty of good units in the book provided that you knew what you were doing. But the biggest thing to come out of Grey Knights, is that they were able to play in the 'Escalation' meta without even using the book themselves. Grey Knights didn't need Gargantuans to be competitive. Grey Knights had entire units full of S8 Force Weapons, S10 with Hammerhand! You tell the Gargantuans to bring it, and the Grey Knights will beat them using units that they already had on the shelf costing them no extra money. Straight up awesome! That is, of course, unless you were fielding 3-man squads in Razorbacks, but, no-one really felt sorry for those people. We also got the Officio Assassinorum book which was pretty boring, save for one model; The Culexus Assassin, which could stop Summoning, make Invisible units visible, and all 'round just screw with anybody trying to Manifest Powers, which was a lot of people, coupled with Coteaz, and his unlimited not!Interceptor, Daemons lists that relied on Summoning took a hard look at themselves and tried to think on how to be the Culexus/Coteaz combo, and they really couldn't. However, the Culexus faced the same problem that Coteaz did, is that there were a lot of metas putting arbitrary restrictions on the amount of Detachments any one army can have (this is a bad thing, remember), and many players simply weren't willing to spend a whole Detachment 'slot' on one model. Exactly the same problem that Coteaz faced. By using limited Detachments, it only allowed Daemons to flourish, GW gave us the tools to beat Daemons, and we weren't allowed to use them. Because. That's why.

For a long time, players thought they were going to get a Part 3 of the Sanctus Reach campaign, due to the stupid way that Hour of the Wolf ended, there was even a novella written about Grey Knights in Sanctus Reach to tie-in with the campaign! Where did that Part 3 go!? We'll never know. Because we moved onto...

Dark Eldar in October! At first glance, this Codex came off as weak. Then we saw an army with six Ravagers on a Skyshield destroy an Adamantine Lance Formation in two turns, and we started taking Dark Eldar seriously. If you're in a meta with Super-Heavies - particularly Knights - Dark Eldar were the Codex to go to. True-to-form, Dark Eldar had a weak release, then turned out to be the meta-buster for the third edition in a row! THREE TIMES! But nobody really noticed, because, once again, negative opinions were the loudest, and all we really heard about was how Vect and Sarthonyx had been removed from the Codex and that the Beast Star had been nerfed, and how Jet Councils would never be the same because of the loss of Sarthonyx. Gimmicks lose. A properly built Dark Eldar army is a force to be reckoned with, but the rules-exploitative gimmick units were nerfed, and that's what mattered. Similar to Grey Knight Razorspam, nobody with a brain really cared about what people with Beast Stars had to say, because those people with brains were now dealing with no Scatter, Webway Portal'd Wraithguard with Scythe weapons. 40K changes, some people move on, some people don't, and people don't care about what's good. The Governments of the world have known this for ages, and the 40K-community is only catching onto it now. Haemonculus Covens was released - fairly underwhelmingly. Another book full of 'Do you like this unit? Here's how to make them better!' type Formations, similar to Waaagh! Ghazgkull and Champions of Fenris, but, unlike those two books with units that people sort-of care about, no-one really cares about Talos and Cronus Engines and the Covens book was basically ignored...Call Dark Eldar players when you've found a way to make Ravagers even better.

Then we got EVEN MOAR Tyranid releases. Like The Goonies, now is THEIR TIME. If you thought Tyranids were strong already, GW gave them a whole bunch of extra units that they totally didn't need to make Tyranids even more better. With these releases, Shield of Baal: Leviathan came out, gave us a Fighter Aces rule-expansion that nobody cares about, and a really, really, really poor showing of Cities of Death, watering it down to a Maestrom game with slightly more terrain. Really poor. What's worse, is that the Narrative Campaign that follows Leviathan is even worse than Hour of the Wolf's. Hour of the Wolf is basic stuff, just copy that one and you've got something not terrible. But SoB: Leviathan has the forces involved on the not-Tyranid side swap and change pretty much every battle making it next to impossible for the same two people to play straight, and, with a book full of new releases, the Leviathan campaign doesn't even force the Tyranid player to use any of them. Ignore the narrative, and just play a straight Cities of Death game, and you're pretty much doing the Leviathan campaign.

Finally, for the holiday season, we got Blood Angels, and Exterminatus, part 2 of the Shield of Baal campaign. Surprisingly, all of the faults of previous books were apparently ignored because people just like Blood Angels that much, any update is a good update. Blood Angels received no new units, zero, none. But they also didn't lose any units either, and everything was competitively costed against the Space Marine book, where Blood Angels got several unit upgrades for free, which Codex Marines would have to pay for. But, similar to Orks, Blood Angels actually get worse when you try and add Allies into them, so a big part of what makes Blood Angels so...Unique...Is that it actually really is quite a good, self-contained book. Like Tau. Trying to do gimmicks with Blood Angels actually increases your chance of losing, not winning. While every unit in the Blood Angels' book is basically doing the same thing like Grey Knights, unlike Grey Knights, Blood Angels get to paint their units differently; Black, gold or red. Instead of every unit looking exactly the same like Grey Knights. Ultimately, the greatest thing about Blood Angels, is that it actually lets you do what you want to do - Assault things. The only real complaint so far, is that Assault Squads are no longer Troops, but, since Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter, that's actually legit, Assault Squads shouldn't be Troops, because of the Codex Astartes, which they totally do follow. If, what people are actually complaining about, is the inability to field discounted Razorbacks, then they get the same response that 3-man GK Razorbacks and DE Beast Stars got; "**** you, ****head."
Part 2 of Shield of Baal isn't bad either. Got a bunch of decent Blood Angel Formations, a few Necron ones, and the campaign is more like Hour of the Wolf which isn't bad, rather than Part 1 of SoB which is terrible. Could Part 2 of Shield of Baal been better? Absolutely. Red Waaagh! proves it. But, Red Waaagh! has the problem that a 'casual' player can't just pick it up and go, Red Waaagh! is too specific. Hour of the Wolf and Exterminatus are good middle grounds, which can appeal to competitive and casual gamers alike, so it's not bad, just not great.

It's hard to believe that 7th Ed., is only ~6 months old, but there it is. Screw 5th Ed., and endless Razorback parking lots of different colours. Right now, is the best time to be playing 40K. We don't even have Eldar winning all the time like we did in 6th Ed. Tyranids are strong. Orks are strong. Dark Eldar are strong. Grey Knights are strong. Most of the Supplements actually aren't complete wastes of money, but, more importantly, none of the Supplements are auto-win buttons either which is kind of a huge deal. The only real problem with the game as it currently is, is the Adamantine Lance Formation, but, we've also seen that the ALF can be beaten, not just by one army, but several, if only those armies can use the tools that they've been given - and that's on the players, not GW. As far as books go, once we got 7th Ed., a lot of the early-2014 releases started making a bit more sense, and the only 'mistake' in the entirety of 2014 was the Space Wolves Codex, which was underwhelming and boring, and people really like Space Wolves, so it actually was a problem.

As a last, personal note, I hate Space Wolves, so I thought this year was pretty much perfect. :smallamused:

Drasius

2014-12-26, 07:03 AM

stuff.

You missed out that Crimson slaughter finally giving CSM Div was actually pretty good at the time. Other than that, very nice summary

As a last, personal note, I hate Space Wolves, so I thought this year was pretty much perfect. :smallamused:

Amen.

Here's my entry for our conversion comp, which while it gained unanimous vocal support from the store patrons (bar myself), lost to an unpainted ork wagon as decided by the store manager.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/DSC_00241_zpsd84b8a49.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/DSC_00271_zps0f97b957.jpg~original

And my effort for tomorrow's Oath that I still need to do a tiny amount of touch up on the blue on the armour and some additional work on the glow effect on the exhausts;

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/DSC_00311_zps46c0bffd.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/DSC_00321_zps83618db9.jpg~original

I also managed to pick up an entire black dragon and base ( no rider) in our Giffle that will be converted into a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, along with another 1/4 of a land raider. Only 1 more set of tracks and side armour to go and I'll have scored a land raider (sans instructions) for the princely sum of nothing.

Will try and claim a finders feed of a pair of bloodcrushers from another player who had me hang onto his giffle tickets as I managed to score some elves (which he plays), a pair of bloodcrushers and a complete 5 man death company with instructions (which he is starting).

We also had a game of kill the cultist, to see which single unit could kill the most out of 50 cultists in 1 round (shooting and then assault, but no psychic powers). My 16x thousand Sons and an aspiring sorceror that I had on hand had a crack, but rolled slightly below average and only managed to kill 28. Was eventually won by 10 tactical terminators with a body count north of 35. Then some jackass took a trancendant C'Tan (though he took seismic assault rather than sky of falling stars for some reason, not that it mattered), but was eventually disqualified.

Jormengand

2014-12-26, 09:05 AM

We also had a game of kill the cultist, to see which single unit could kill the most out of 50 cultists in 1 round (shooting and then assault, but no psychic powers).

Hmm...

Assault squad with two flamers is two templates, a plasma pistol and seven bolt pistols to the face, an then 10 hammers of wrath and 29 CC attacks (S5 because why are you not BA? Unless you wanted to be RG for HoW or Salamanders for the Flamers, possibly?). That should work, right?

If that's not enough flamers for you, flamers and T-L flamers in a farsight honour guard (actual farsight probably isn't allowed, but you can take a bodyguard team, right? Otherwise just substitute three crises and they'll still get the job done). If you can't get 14 templates to land 75 hits on a 50-man squad, you're doing something terribly wrong, but you also get 28 S5 WS3 attacks and... is it 6 S5 WS... again, 6? Can't remember, but power attacks. That's gotta kill the lot of them.

If that's not enough for you, termagants can have Assault 3 weapons and come in blocks of up to 30, so even they can probably tear up a sizable chunk - for that matter, couldn't warriors do some pretty nasty stuff to the squad?

Ork Boyz can chuck 80 CC attacks onto them, hitting on 3 wounding on 3. That'll take out most of them without shooting (which will itself have 6 of them down with normal sluggas). However, if you thought that Farsight was packing enough flamers, the Burna Boyz have a real surprise for you.

Necrons I'm not too familiar with, but immortals with tesla might have a good go at taking the cultists down. Tomb blades? Hells, Scarabs? I'm sure that something in the book will work.

Eldar can chuck dedicated close combat units at them, or get an avenger exarch to unload all their ammo on the cultists before remembering that their weapons are assault.

Hmm... I'm gonna stop going through codices with which I'm not actually familiar. But yeah, it can't be hard.

LeSwordfish

2014-12-26, 09:27 AM

My thinking was Salamanders Sternguard with Combi-Flamers and heavy flamers.

Eldan

2014-12-26, 09:45 AM

Hm. Toxic adrenal hormagants... 3 attacks per model on a charge, with S4 and reroll to wound..

90 attacks. Hit on 3+, so 60 hits. 3+ rerolled to wound, so 53.3 wounds.

Hard to beat, really.

Raveners with acid:
Shots: 27 shots, 13.5 hits, S5, so 4.5 wounds.
Attacks: 45 attacks, 30 hits, 20 wounds.

24.5 Not even close.

Warriors, toxic, adrenal glands, deathspitters:
27 shots, 13.5hits, S5, still 4.5 wounds.
36 attacks, 27 hits, 2+ rerolled to wound, so 26.2 wounds

30.7 wounds.

Hormagants win by far. As expected, really, it's their role.

Jormengand

2014-12-26, 10:04 AM

Oh, also I forgot that Death Company were a thing. Hmm...

Grim Portent

2014-12-26, 11:24 AM

I decided to pick up Kharn's dataslate and I'm liking the look of the Butcherhorde.

Kharn + 4 berzerker squads + 4 marine squads with the MoK.

They all get adamantium will, if they roll an 8 to charge (after rerolls) they double the attacks on their profile, and any 6s to hit add a new attack with any 6s from them also granting additional attacks (I think this dicesplosion is worded to be infinite as long as 6s are rolled).

So if Kharn is in a squad that rolls an 8 to charge he gets 11 attacks. 4 from his profile doubled to 8, 1 for dual wielding and 2 for rage. With bonus attacks if he rolls any 6s to hit. Fun. :smallbiggrin:

Requizen

2014-12-26, 11:27 AM

Nice write up Cheese! Interesting to see where we've come in the last year. The haul this year was pretty good, though now that I own Escalation and Codex: Imperial Knights, I feel the burning need to put superheavies on the table.

Kill the Cultist: Hmm... Is there a points limit? 10 Praetorians with Particle Casters+Voidblades and a Destroyer Lord with Gauntlet of Fire. 10 AP5 Shots and a Heavy Flamer -> 30 Rending attacks + 4 regular from the DLord rerolling to hit and to wound. This setup is actually more effective than Wraiths given the situation that you don't need to worry about having the Invuln saves and Wounds shouldn't be an issue.

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-26, 12:01 PM

We also had a game of kill the cultist, to see which single unit could kill the most out of 50 cultists in 1 round (shooting and then assault, but no psychic powers). My 16x thousand Sons and an aspiring sorceror that I had on hand had a crack, but rolled slightly below average and only managed to kill 28. Was eventually won by 10 tactical terminators with a body count north of 35. Then some jackass took a trancendant C'Tan (though he took seismic assault rather than sky of falling stars for some reason, not that it mattered), but was eventually disqualified.
A squadron of Leman Russ Eradicators with heavy flamers all around should just about do the trick, I would say. :smallwink:

Wraith

2014-12-26, 12:46 PM

My thinking was Salamanders Sternguard with Combi-Flamers and heavy flamers.

Depends on how he challenge worked, I think. If it's a thought experiment, then you can assume to hit the maximum number of models that you could physically fit under a template - between 7 and 9 each sounds about right. But if your assuming that it's attacking an actual opponent with real models, who is setting up anything like sensibly, your targets won't be base-to-base with each other; even a small gap between models dramatically lowers the number hit per template, and if it's the full 2" that cohesion allows then you might be lucky to get 4 or 5.

Having said that, hitting 4 or 5 targets with a template is essentially better than an Assault 6 weapon with BS4, so I would probably take the same :smalltongue: Maybe add something like a Chaplain on top, just to get that extra little bit of damage from the Assault, though, as Sternguard aren't a stellar choice in that respect.

LeSwordfish

2014-12-26, 01:15 PM

4 cultists x8 re-rolling flamers = 32 hits, on average 28 dead.
4 cultists x2 re-rolling heavy flamers = 8 hits, on average 7 dead. (Though I'd be very surprised not to see all 8 down.)
3 attacks x10 sternguard = 20 hits, 14 wounds, 11 kills (cultists have a 5+, right?)

This is all mental maths so dont take it too seriously, but that suggests a total of 40Something dead. Could be better, but when you take that as the lower bound of hits, I think the Sternguard could pay their way. (And spread the cultists out enough to take fewer flamer hits, and fewer will be in range to take wounds from assault, lessening the effectiveness of yer Death Company and yer Eldar Assaulty Aspects.)

If you can add ICs, as in the Destroyer Lord example above, then either Vulkan or a maxed-out combat captain/chaplain could add considerable killing power. (Add the Rampage Chainsword and combi-flamer.)

This is actually a challenge that the playground could do. Create a map of cultist positions, then use a thread in the RPG subforum to test attacking squad positions and rolls.

Requizen

2014-12-26, 01:29 PM

Well I guess it really depends on what the rules are. One squad? With/without ICs? Or just a points limit, so multiple squads?

Kind of a fun experiement, even though it doesn't mean anything realistic :smalltongue:

Squark

2014-12-26, 02:02 PM

LeSwordfish

2014-12-26, 02:05 PM

I think so. The C'Tan has two powers to purchase, which can be the same, one of which is, IIRC, S8 Ap3 Heavy 12d6. I don't know if that's the one you're trying to avoid.

Squark

2014-12-26, 02:19 PM

I think so. The C'Tan has two powers to purchase, which can be the same, one of which is, IIRC, S8 Ap3 Heavy 12d6. I don't know if that's the one you're trying to avoid.

Antimatter meteor is 6d6, and I'm almost positive the powers have to be different. But yeah, that's the power I'm trying to avoid, since it's rather loathed in my local meta.

I know the C'tan also has an Apocalyptic Barrage, an enormous pie plate, and a S D Hellstorm, and I think it has a total of 6 powers to chose from, but it's been a while since I glanced in Escalation.

Jormengand

2014-12-26, 02:36 PM

With the cultists, actually, anyone who can win a sweeping advance roll should be able to win most of the time. :smalltongue:

LeSwordfish

2014-12-26, 02:47 PM

The specific description, IIRC, doesn't preclude taking the same power twice in the same way as anyone who "May Take" may take, say, three meltaguns or whatever.

Turalisj

2014-12-26, 03:01 PM

A squadron of Leman Russ Eradicators with heavy flamers all around should just about do the trick, I would say. :smallwink:

A bunch of annihilation barges with twin-linked tesla desctructors and a heavy tesla cannon underneath :smallwink:

Requizen

2014-12-26, 03:32 PM

Well, I got Ulrik the Slayer, Njal Stormcaller, and a Tesseract Vault.

I don't have Escalation, though, and with a new codex on the horizon I'm reluctant to purchase it. So, a quick question- Is it possible to field a Transcendent C'tan without needing Apocalypse templates? Especially if I'm trying not to be a jerk and avoid Antimatter Meteor? (Yes or No suffices)

Also, what's the points value of a Revenant titan or a Harridan, just for comparison (I don't want stats, just the points cost of one with typical upgrades)?

I actually got Escalation, so I'll be somewhat miffed if the C'Tan/Vault/Obelisk get moved into the new codex, since I'll have no use for the book and I actually don't know if GW does returns. (They should, but the one I usually go to has done some strange things in the past as well)

The only way to not need Apoc templates is to take Seismic Assault twice, which is the most expensive power (200 for each instance).

The Harridan is about the same cost as a TC'tan (higher or lower depending on the weapons/skill you take on him), while the Revenant Titan is as expensive as the most expensive TC'tan, so more expensive than a regular one.

I also got a bunch more Necrons and the Imperial Knight book. Now I feel much more obligated to work on my Imperial force (Knight + Scions + ???). I got a bunch of Wraiths (about half will be converted to Acanthrites) and a few Tomb Blades which I hope will be more competitive in the next book. But I'm also buying Screamers off of a FLGS buddy... so now I'm confused as to what army to focus on :smallfrown:

Real first world problems, I know.

Darthteej

2014-12-26, 03:37 PM

DaedalusMkV

2014-12-26, 04:00 PM

Can anyone recommend a good load-out for Grey Knight Terminators and Paladins? My first squad of painted terminators unfortunately has only force swords(assembled back when they actually did something >.>), but I got two new squads for Christmas. I know that hammers are good, but also expensive.

Ideally, you want about a 1:1 ratio of Hammers to either Halberds or Falchions. Where you get an odd number, favour the Hammers. Halberd versus Falchion is mostly a personal preference thing; Falchions perform much better with Hammerhand buffing the unit, but Halberds are a bit cheaper (and kill T8 better with Hammerhand and T6 better without). Don't bother with Swords, and you want at most one Stave per unit. Preferably you want to just give your Librarian a Stave and use him to Deny the Witch for as many units as you can fit within Psychic Hood range (Grey Knight Librarians with Staves are the undisputed kings of Denying the Witch, to the point anyone ML2 or less is better off just not trying to cast offensive Powers on units protected by one), and keep your units with the better killing weapons.

While all Hammer would be the most effective, it's also prohibitively points-heavy in practice. The Halberds/Falchions are there to deal with enemy Unwieldly attacks before they get to swing and to save you that 25-30 points per unit.

Unfortunately, you only get one Hammer per box because GW decided to waste a bunch of sprue space putting 5 pairs of Falchions in there. If you have any extra Daemonhammers from your power-armoured Grey Knights, you can easily convert them to Terminator models by snipping the heads and a bit of haft off a Halberd and pinning the head of the Hammer to it, and if you're decent with Greenstuff you can make your own Hammer heads using bits of sprue and Greenstuff, but otherwise you might need to buy an Assault Terminator arm set to get enough Hammers to have proper Terminator squads.

How are you planning on delivering your Terminators? Deep Striking Terminators (usually used with the special Grey Knight Detachment and a Comms Relay) want Psycannons, while Land Raider-mounted Terminators often prefer Incinerators. Walking Terminators are an oxymoron, and should be replaced with either Deep Striking or Raider-mounted Terminators at your earliest convenience.

Squark

2014-12-26, 04:09 PM

I actually got Escalation, so I'll be somewhat miffed if the C'Tan/Vault/Obelisk get moved into the new codex, since I'll have no use for the book and I actually don't know if GW does returns. (They should, but the one I usually go to has done some strange things in the past as well)

The only way to not need Apoc templates is to take Seismic Assault twice, which is the most expensive power (200 for each instance).

The Harridan is about the same cost as a TC'tan (higher or lower depending on the weapons/skill you take on him), while the Revenant Titan is as expensive as the most expensive TC'tan, so more expensive than a regular one.

I also got a bunch more Necrons and the Imperial Knight book. Now I feel much more obligated to work on my Imperial force (Knight + Scions + ???). I got a bunch of Wraiths (about half will be converted to Acanthrites) and a few Tomb Blades which I hope will be more competitive in the next book. But I'm also buying Screamers off of a FLGS buddy... so now I'm confused as to what army to focus on :smallfrown:

Real first world problems, I know.

Well, the Stompa made it into The Ork book. On the other hand, the Thunderhawk didn't show up in any of the Space Marine Codexes, but that might just be lack of a GW model.

Requizen

2014-12-26, 04:44 PM

Well, the Stompa made it into The Ork book. On the other hand, the Thunderhawk didn't show up in any of the Space Marine Codexes, but that might just be lack of a GW model.

That's sorta what I'm thinking. And considering how hard SoB:Exterminatus was/is pushing C'Tan, I would not be surprised to see him in there. But now all sources I've seen are saying January 31 for Crons... ugh, patience is not my virtue.

Darthteej

2014-12-26, 04:56 PM

How are you planning on delivering your Terminators? Deep Striking Terminators (usually used with the special Grey Knight Detachment and a Comms Relay) want Psycannons, while Land Raider-mounted Terminators often prefer Incinerators. Walking Terminators are an oxymoron, and should be replaced with either Deep Striking or Raider-mounted Terminators at your earliest convenience.

I'm planning on delivering them via Deep Strike with the Nemesis detachment yes. Good to hear that I need more hammers, I'll be using those, and for my old paladins probably just "counts-as" the swords for halberds. Basic unit setup is the stave librarian attaches to the paladins, creating a two psycannon+witchfire deathstar(hopefully with vortex of doom) while Draigo goes with hammer and falchion terminators. I was thinking three falchion terminators with three hammers, to maximize the limited number of attacks.

DaedalusMkV

2014-12-26, 06:33 PM

I'm planning on delivering them via Deep Strike with the Nemesis detachment yes. Good to hear that I need more hammers, I'll be using those, and for my old paladins probably just "counts-as" the swords for halberds. Basic unit setup is the stave librarian attaches to the paladins, creating a two psycannon+witchfire deathstar(hopefully with vortex of doom) while Draigo goes with hammer and falchion terminators. I was thinking three falchion terminators with three hammers, to maximize the limited number of attacks.

Draigo's a little bit questionable in a Deep Strike Bomb list; that's six or seven more Terminators you could be throwing at the enemy, and it's not like you're worried about transport slots. Unless your meta is absolutely overrun with Big, Scary Monsters for Draigo to Force Weapon to death, you're usually better off with more bodies. Three Falchions to three Hammers is fine for a 6-man unit, though anything but 5 or 10 strong Terminator squads is a bit wasteful in a Deep Strike list. You really want to be maximizing your Psycannons to eliminate enemy Transports as quickly as possible. If you run into something like Serpent Spam and don't manage to kill most of the Serpents on the turn you drop you'll have a hell of a time trying to catch them when they run away.

Darthteej

2014-12-26, 06:53 PM

Yeah but I don't have any more terminators and Draigo has a really cool model. Besides which, my meta is extremely uncompetitive, the only list that poses a threat to me is White Scars graviton death star, which would destroy me anyway.

Requizen

2014-12-27, 12:43 AM

Hm, rather than mucking around with starting an Imperial army (I love the Scion models to death, but I can't bring myself buy more or play them right now), maybe I'll just CtA ally my Knight with the Daemons. That seems more reasonable, even though I wish there existed rules for Chaos Knights (and Traitor Guard, for that matter).

Speaking of Daemons, I was thinking about my soon-to-be Screamerstar. I don't want to be That Guy at my FLGS, so is there a way to run it more, I dunno, "tamely"? Like, instead of 3 Heralds and 9 Screamers, run 1 or 2 Heralds with ~6 Screamers and don't do any 2++ rerollable shenanigans? I like the idea of a fast squad with Psychic prowess, but don't want people to hate me when I drop it down.

Cheesegear

2014-12-27, 01:22 AM

Today I learned that models with Move Through Cover ignore Dangerous Terrain, and can therefore Deep Strike straight into terrain without problems. Storm Troopers are so good.

bluntpencil

2014-12-27, 01:41 AM

Today I learned that models with Move Through Cover ignore Dangerous Terrain, and can therefore Deep Strike straight into terrain without problems. Storm Troopers are so good.

I wonder if Furioso Dreadnoughts rappel from Stormravens using magnagrapples...

Requizen

2014-12-27, 02:04 AM

Dangit Cheese, and I just said I wasn't thinking about making more Scions anymore, and you had to go and say something cool like that :smalltongue:

If one were so inclined - if one were - how would this 1850 point list fare?

Knights and Scions

Militarum Tempestus - 1070

HQ
(W) Lord Commissar - 65
Tempestus Command Squad - Medipack, 3x Plasma Guns - 145

Troops
5x Scions - 2x Meltaguns - 90
5x Scions - 2x Meltaguns - 90
5x Scions - 2x Meltaguns, Taurox Prime w/ Missile Launchers - 190
5x Scions - 2x Hot Shot Volley Guns - 90
5x Scions - 2x Hot Shot Volley Guns - 90

Fast Attack
Valkyrie - Lascannon - 135

Fortification
Skyshield Landing Pad - Ready for Takeoff - 80
Bastion - Comms Relay - 95

Imperial Knights - 745
Knight Paladin - 375
Knight Errant - 370

1815, so wiggle room, adding a Scion, or changing weapons, etc. Put one of the Hot Shot Volley Guns into Bastion with the Lord Commissar, the Valkyrie can carry one of either types of squad depending on the enemy setup. I like the idea of the of MSU dropping in while Knights and the Valkyrie hold down the fort in the meantime.

bluntpencil

2014-12-27, 02:47 AM

Wraith

2014-12-27, 02:53 AM

Requizen

2014-12-27, 03:15 AM

Drasius

2014-12-27, 04:11 AM

A reasonably reliable rumour has it that the next codex to be released after Necrons in January will be.... Harlequins.

No details yet other than there might be plans for new plastic models, including Harlequin Jetbikes (last mentioned in the Second Edition Codex). For all that we know, it might just be an elaborate release for a Formation like Leviathan rather than a stand-alone Codex.

Either way I have to wonder....Is this really what anyone wanted?
I don't recall anyone asking for an entire army made up of expensive clowns since.... well, ever. Certainly not this decade, new Codex: Eldar or otherwise. And if GW wanted to launch a new spread of models in an Eldar supplement, I genuinely think they'd get far more mileage out of going back to the Exodites.

Whatever next? A 7th Ed. release for Codex: Catachans? :smalltongue:

Wasn't someone on here asking about a harley list a thread or 2 back?

I'm gonna go look now and see if I can find it. IIRC, Cheesegear made up a list and everything.

Ha, LeSwordfish called it on the 10/9

Let's be honest, though, Supplement:Harlequins is months away at most.

And it was Eldan who asked for a harlequin list;

I've been thinking about theme armies, a bit. Mostly because, well, this year's campaign will be over soon and I'll have to think of something to build for the one the year after next (we have a campaign every two years, with a build/paint year in between).

So, since I already have Eldar, I was thinking something that I can mix with that army, but that's also relatively standalone. It also has to be friendly to rebuilding, kitbashing and interesting to paint in a way that stands out, since there will be painting/modelling competitions and I want to get a few points. So, Harlequins.

Specifically, a Harlequin-themed Dark Eldar army. 1500 points or so. Now, I have a few restrictions I'm setting myself for this (fluff reasons) and as I'm not too familiar with the DE codex yet, I'm mainly wondering how viable that would be.

-Infantry-heavy. Not too much of a problem, but:
-Light on vehicles. I just don't really see the Harlequin travelling in them, but one of the greatest strengths of the DE seems to be their transports. Jetbikes I can see, the rest not so much.
-Harlequin in the elite slots. Shouldn't be a problem.
-Variety. Not too many replicates of the same unit type.

So... viable? Ideas?

Note that I think the a harlequin codex is stupid and the time and effort should be going to making DA, CSM and maybe IG stronger rather than giving both flavours of space elves more toys that they don't need, but it would make at least 1 persons day, so it's not all bad.

Wraith

2014-12-27, 05:02 AM

There was another (less substantial) rumor for Codex: Deathwatch later in 2015, but that may be listwishing. Still, the idea of making codices that are basic (to the point of people complaining about them being boring or bad) and then making supplements and addons for more themed and fluffy armies sounds pretty decent/interesting.

I'm not against the idea of Add-Ons rather than full blown Codices - the ability to pick and choose what bits you like in handy little packages with a periodic update for every race is awesome (I'm a long-time Grey Knights and Eldar player, so I know how bad it sucks to be stuck with an old Codex for 8 years too long :smalltongue: ).

I'm just wondering who asked for Harlequins, specifically, given how much demand there was for Sisters of Battle to be done 'right' and with plastic models, and for Tyranids to get some new things, and for Orks to be more than a mono-build, and so on. I'd like to know why GW have this as such a high priority.

(Side note: Personally, I kinda expect Codex: Inquisition to be redone at some point this year, and if they're going anywhere then we might see Deathwatch included in that. Pure guesswork on my part, but it'd fit given that Grey Knights had their "Space Marines" and their "Inquisitors" separated, almost as if in preparation...)

Wasn't someone on here asking about a harley list a thread or 2 back?
I'm gonna go look now and see if I can find it. IIRC, Cheesegear made up a list and everything.
Ha, LeSwordfish called it on the 10/9

Literally the only two people in the last decade, then. At least, anywhere around me - I have no doubt that there's a hard-core fandom out there in the deepest, darkest recesses of /tg/ or something :smalltongue:

That being said, that list the Cheesegear wrote up? War Zone: Valedor, which he used to do so, already gives us a long list of things that people could do with Harlequins and it wasn't very good. Again (with the possible exception of Cheesegear himself) I don't know anyone who even bothered to read it, let alone buy it.

It's almost as though GW are getting around to fulfilling the fanbase' wishlist.... circa 1997. Keep an eye out for the new and improved Codex: Assassins any day now! :smallbiggrin: And yes, I'm fully aware, thank you. ;)

Cheesegear

2014-12-27, 05:16 AM

A reasonably reliable rumour has it that the next codex to be released after Necrons in January will be.... Harlequins.

Who asked for Legion of the Damned? Who really asked for a Storm Trooper Codex? Was anybody really that interested in the Chaos Marine army in Dark Vengeance? Who really asked for an Iron Hands or Imperial Fist book when the big winner in the Space Marines book is White Scars? GW is just putting stuff out that they think is cool. That's all.

Or - more sinisterly - they could be selling back Harlequins to Dark Eldar players because Harlequins were removed from the 7th Ed. Codex? But I really don't think GW has thought that one through, since Dark Eldar players simply aren't interested in Harlequins - there's Wyches in the Troops slot, after all. It's hard to care about the removal of units you never ever even used when there are units that you did use that were also taken out - Vect and Baron.

lord_khaine

2014-12-27, 06:03 AM

I will just point out that you used to be able to field Harlequin armies, with the Great Harlequin and Shadow Seer being HQ choices in line with a Phoenix lord or a Farseer.

And i for once look forward to getting some updated stats for a Solitare, who used to be a badass with 8 in WS before he were dropped from the codex.

Tehnar

2014-12-27, 09:42 AM

If they accompany the mini harlequin dex with miniatures I see nothing wrong with it. Harlies are a big part of the Eldar lore that deserves some love, if nothing else to counter all the pro imperial factions.

lord_khaine

2014-12-27, 11:00 AM

Yeah.. when we can get a codex whose main function seemed to be to deliver mini titans into the arms of all the imperial factions, then i cant see any issue in a codex that would just return some old units back into the game.

Darthteej

2014-12-27, 12:32 PM

Literally the only two people in the last decade, then. At least, anywhere around me - I have no doubt that there's a hard-core fandom out there in the deepest, darkest recesses of /tg/ or something :smalltongue:

Nahhhh, speaking from experience, /tg/ is thoroughly in the "Where are our plastic sisters" camp. As am I, for that matter :smallmad:

Eldan

2014-12-27, 03:12 PM

I was the one doing the harlequin list. Though my idea was just getting a smal lhandful of dark eldar as allies for my eldar and then painting them as harlequin. Mostly because doing extensive conversions is the most fun part of the hobby for me and I don't like drab colour schemes like a lot of DE seem to hvae.

Then I considered using eldar corsairs (from Mymeara) instead, so everyone could have jump packs.

thedavo

2014-12-27, 03:57 PM

Drasius

2014-12-27, 05:25 PM

Cheesegear

2014-12-27, 07:02 PM

Requizen

2014-12-27, 11:27 PM

If you had to pick one Assassin to include in a TAC list, which one would you choose?

Cheesegear

2014-12-28, 12:31 AM

Exercise only. Do not take seriously.

Space Wolves, Company of the Great Wolf
(W) Bjorn the Fell-Handed; Helfrost Cannon - 220 Points

Venerable Dreadnought; Twin-Linked Lascannon, Smoke Launchers - 150 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Twin-Linked Lascannon, Smoke Launchers - 150 Points
Muderfang + Drop Pod - 170 Points

Blood Angels, Archangels Strike Force
Librarian; Terminator Armour, Storm Shield - 100 Points

Furioso Dreadnought; Meltagun, Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 170 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Meltagun, Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 170 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Meltagun, Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 170 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Meltagun, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Meltagun, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Furioso Dreadnought; Meltagun, Heavy Flamer - 135 Points

Drop Pod; Locator Beacon - 45 Points

Total: 1750

10 Dreadnoughts. 5 Drop Pods. The Librarian is kind of annoying, but that's the minimum he needs to be, I didn't give him ML2, but I did him a Storm Shield, so he doesn't give away a free Kill Point. Anyway, if you drop the Drop Pods, you can pick up exactly one more SW Dreadnought, but I very much believe that 5 Drop Pods is 'worth' more than a single extra Dreadnought, even if it does break theme. Bjorn's Warlord Trait sucks, because Dreadnoughts don't take Morale or Pinning checks. However, the only other available Warlord is Murderfang, but Bjorn has an Invulnerable save and Venerable while Murderfang has neither of those things. Of course, you could pull a switcheroo and make the BA Librarian the Warlord, that way you at least get to roll and maybe get something good. Whatever. 10 Dreads in 1750. I tried.

Drasius

2014-12-28, 03:14 AM

Cheesegear, I am dissapoint.

http://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/SonIamDisappointBlackSS.png

Spess Woof Company of the Great Woof Detachment

220 - Bjork the Foul Handed, Helfrost Cannon

170 - Murderface, Murder Pod
180 - Venerable Wolf Dread, Feral Axe of the Murder Wolf, Blizzard Shield of the Frost Fang, Murder Pod
140 - Wolf Dread, Murder-Melta, Wolf Fist, Heavy Fang Flamer, Murder Pod
140 - Wolf Dread, Murder-Melta, Wolf Fist, Heavy Fang Flamer, Murder Pod
140 - Wolf Dread, Murder-Melta, Wolf Fist, Heavy Fang Flamer, Murder Pod
115 - Wolf Dread, 2x Wolf-linked Autocannons of the Ice Wolf
115 - Wolf Dread, 2x Wolf-linked Autocannons of the Ice Wolf

Spess Vampire Twighlight Allies Detachable

220 - Psychic Vampire Coffin, Heavy Blood Flamer, Blood Pod

140 - Cassor the Damned Bloody Vampire

160 - Furious-but-not-so-fast Vampire coffin, Magna Blood Grapple, Heavy Blood Flamer, Blood Pod

1740

No rediculous not-entombed-in-a-walking-coffin shenanigans here. Now 11 Dreads and 7 pods. Not enough front AV 13 though, so you totally win there. Not sure if the Furious George dread can have another heavy flamer for 10 points, but if so, well, there's 10 points to spare, so do that.

Tehnar

2014-12-28, 04:48 AM

Eldar don't need help.

I agree that Eldar strongest builds don't need help, adding new, balanced units won't change much about the strongest builds. It will just leave more options for those players who want to forge the narrative or just play Harlie lists.

Wraith

2014-12-28, 05:44 AM

Who asked for Legion of the Damned? Who really asked for a Storm Trooper Codex? Was anybody really that interested in the Chaos Marine army in Dark Vengeance? Who really asked for an Iron Hands or Imperial Fist book when the big winner in the Space Marines book is White Scars? GW is just putting stuff out that they think is cool. That's all.

You're asking which people wanted more Space Marine stuff? Space Marines - the single biggest selling product that GW has ever had, and ever will have? :smallconfused: I think the demand speaks for itself. Apparently there even novels about them now.

Or - more sinisterly - they could be selling back Harlequins to Dark Eldar players because Harlequins were removed from the 7th Ed. Codex?

I think you might be onto a winner, in all honesty. Detachments are a big thing, and it was a stroke of marketing genius to allow Knights to ally with multiple (what we used to call) Factions and thus sell them to a broader range of players - I don't blame GW for trying to double down again by selling one supplement to both Eldar and Dark Eldar players, but I'm sure there are more interesting and/or relevant ways to be doing that. This sounds more like someone's pet project that got Green Lit because there was a lot of new artwork lying around, going to waste.

If they accompany the mini harlequin dex with miniatures I see nothing wrong with it. Harlies are a big part of the Eldar lore that deserves some love, if nothing else to counter all the pro imperial factions.

I think I would debate against this. Harlequins are part of the lore, yes, but a BIG part? Apart from a brief failed scrap with Ahriman, acting as hosts for Inquisitor Czevak and antagonizing Jaq Draco, they haven't really done much at all, and certainly nothing of note in the 'bigger picture'. Their role is to be mysterious and weird, even amongst Eldar, which leaves them pretty underdeveloped, at least to me. You could perhaps argue that this is all the more reason to expand and explain them, but in that case, why not do something even more obscure like Exodites, or the other Ork Clans, instead of stripping the mystique from a deliberately insular faction like theHarlequins?

I promise that I'm not trying to play Devil's Advocate, I'd genuinely like to know if it's just me, or if other people would prefer the GW redirected their efforts into something other than a boosting supplement to what is probably already the single strongest Codex in the game?

Similarly, why would GW want to counter the pro-imperial factions? They made a conscious effort to stop doing that in 6th Edition, when the Eldar and Tau were looking too much like the setting's "good" guys, and instead made them more alien, more callous and more selfish.

I was the one doing the harlequin list. Though my idea was just getting a small handful of dark eldar as allies for my eldar and then painting them as harlequin. Mostly because doing extensive conversions is the most fun part of the hobby for me and I don't like drab colour schemes like a lot of DE seem to hvae.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as though you didn't necessarily want a Harlequin army so much as you wanted a Harlequin themed army? Please tell us - having worked on that so far, how do you feel about the proposal of a 'real' Harlequin book? I'd genuinely like to know, from someone who has a specific interest in this area. :smallsmile:

Eldan

2014-12-28, 05:51 AM

I'll probably react as I react to most GW books. I'l lhave a look through it, then not buy it. Same as with Valedor, Mymeara, the End Times or any codices for armies I don't own.

I don't think we need a Harlequin army. Yes, there was one in earlier editions, but the theme always seemed very narrow to me and nothing existing Eldar can't already do.

I mean, I'm still annoyed that more than half the factions in 40k are humans. If I was making this game, we'd have one human codex "Imperium". Maybe, maybe two, "Imperium" and "Space Marines". And six new varieties of cool aliens.

Also, I burried my idea of a Harlequin army anyway. I'm just not so excited anymore about Eldar. My current ideas are more along the lines of expanding my tyranids with (genestealer-themed) allies.

Taking some Imperial artillery and making it hivemind-themed could actually look pretty cool. Take a manticore and stick green stuff on it until it looks H.R. Giger thought it up.

lord_khaine

2014-12-28, 06:05 AM

But i would certainly like to be able to get some useful Harlequin allies to my Eldar army.

The recent changes in rules have really not been kind to them in any way, first overwatch suddenly threatening to burn 1/3 of the unit away before blows are even exchanged if the enemy have a flamer.

And afterwards changes to the psychic rules make their biggest advantage, the thing thats suposed to prevent them from being blown up before they reach the enemy, extremely unreliable.

Cheesegear

2014-12-28, 08:21 AM

Spess Woof Company of the Great Woof Detachment
[...]
Spess Vampire Twighlight Allies Detachable

I lol'd pretty hard. Anyway, I bring this up because a guy in our meta under the old Codex had 3 Librarian/Furiosos in the Elite slot, 3 DC Dreads in the Troops slot, and 3 Dreads in the Heavy slot. But, in 7th Ed., Furiosos, DC Dreads and Dreads all compete against each other in the Elites slot. Meaning he now has models going to waste, except he doesn't 'cause Archangels exist.

140 - Cassor the Damned Bloody Vampire

I totally forgot about that guy. Well played, sir.

Also 'Twilight Marines' are a thing that exist now, and its what people are actually calling their lists.
"So if I put a Sanguinary Priest on a Bike, I can give Thunderwolves FNP*?"
"Yes."
"Rad."

*Wolf Priests give FNP (6+), lame. Sanguinary Priests are a whole 50% better.

Jormengand

2014-12-28, 08:28 AM

*Wolf Priests give FNP (6+), lame. Sanguinary Priests are a whole 50% better.

100%, surely? Making druids wolf priests 50% worse than vampire clerics sanguinary priests?

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-28, 12:11 PM

2k game today against Blood Angels. I just threw this together, didn't really have time to do more than adjust an old list.

2000 points

Tank Commander - 360 (W)
-Vanquisher commander
--Lascannon
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Ministorum Priest - 25

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors - 20

Infantry Platoon - 260
-Platoon Command Squad - 55
--Vox-caster
--Two flamers, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad - 75
--Vox-caster
--Melta bombs, autocannon, flamer
-Infantry Squad - 70
--Melta bombs, autocannon, flamer
-Special Weapons Squad - 60
--Three meltaguns

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera
--Heavy flamer

Ratlings - 50
-Two additional ratlings

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 115
-Two plasma guns

Hellhound - 125
-Heavy flamer

Vendetta Gunship - 170

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150

Wyvern - 65

Aegis defense line - 100
-Quad-gun
The Enginseer and company stick with my tank commander and keep him operating at all costs. The Ratlings and storm troopers infiltrate/deep strike somewhere inconvenient and do their thing, and the special weapon squad with meltaguns goes in the Vendetta to do much the same thing. Platoon commander mans the quad-gun; I may deploy the psyker with him or in the blob depending on deployment type and what I'm looking at. The priest goes in the blob in any case.

I'm expecting a heavy drop pod assault, but we'll see.

Cheesegear

2014-12-28, 07:58 PM

You know me, I like Forging a Narrative, and there's a really cool shot of an Imperial Fists' Chapter Master right in the book. So, here goes...

Chapter Master Vorn Hagen
Vorn Hagen has spent the bulk of his career as a Devastator Sergeant, and, during this time, has learned a marked understanding of the ebb and flow of battle. When his Captain couldn't change his plans, while surrounded on all sides and stuck in the thick of battle, it was Sergeant Hagen, in his critical vantage points that often turned the tide of battle, and his expert knowledge of Heavy weapons has found more use than his Captains choose to admit. When Hagen's Captain finally put himself into a situation he couldn't get out of, Vorn Hagen was made Captain of the 5th Company, and would eventually accompany Brother-Captain Lysander in the Crusade of Thunder. During the Crusade of Thunder, the then Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists - Vladamir Pugh - would meet his end, Lysander then charged headlong into battle with the swarms of Tyranids, and Lysander would have lost his life had it not been once again due to the actions of the more level-headed Vorn Hagen. Vorn Hagen single-handedly brought the Crusade of Thunder back from ruin by saving the life of it's head - Lysander. When it came time to elect a new Chapter Master, Darnath Lysander was voted by all other nine Captains - including Vorn. Lysander refused, had it not been for the actions of Vorn Hagen, the Imperial Fists would be in tatters, and Lysander, as all Imperial Fists, recognised his own guilt, and said to all present that if made Chapter Master, he, Lysander, would run the Fists into the ground, and it should be Captain Hagen who should take up the mantle of Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, Praetor of the Solar Segmentum and the Sentinel of Terra.

Hagen knew that all the other Captains - including himself - did not want Vorn Hagen as Chapter Master. He was unready, he was barely made Captain. However, there is no task that a Son of Dorn will not rise to meet. Besides, in his mind, Hagen believes that Captain Lysander has already fallen to Templars, and the only reason that he didn't accept the role of Chapter Master was so that he could keep fighting the enemies of the Imperium.

HQ, 275 Points
[Chapter Master Statline]
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)

Wargear: Auspex, Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Greandes, Iron Halo, Signum
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists), Dorn's Fury, Independent Character, Will of Stone
Chapter Relic: Memories of Terra

Warlord Trait: Malleable Tactics. After Deployment, but before Scout moves are made, Vorn Hagen can nominate one unit type - for example, Infantry or Monstrous Creature. If he does so, Vorn Hagen has the Preferred Enemy special rule against models with that unit type.

Dorn's Fury
Only one thing ever cause Rogal Dorn's composure to crack; His brothers' betrayal. To this day, the greatest sin a Son of Dorn can commit is betraying his brothers, his brothers who have fought and bled beside him.

If Vorn Hagen declares a Charge against any model with the Chaos Space Marines Faction, Vorn Hagen and any Imperial Fists unit he is with gain the Hatred and Furious Charge special rules, and may re-roll one of the dice when rolling for Charge distance. Also, when Charged by a model with the Chaos Space Marines Faction, Vorn Hagen and any Imperial Fists unit he is with gain Counter-Attack. In addition, when Challenged by a model with the Chaos Space Marines Faction, Vorn Hagen must Accept.

Will of Stone
A Son of Dorn can not fail while he still draws breath.

Vorn Hagen has the Adamantium Will special rule. In addition, Wounds allocated to Vorn Hagen with a Strength value with at least double his Toughness do not gain the Instant Death special rule.

Chapter Relic: Memories of Terra
Said to be crafted during the Heresy, when Terra was beautiful, and before Dorn turned Terra into a fortress. These hammers were said to have fortified the Eternity Gate itself. Whatever the legend, these Hammers have been the mark of office for the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists for as long as anybody can remember.

[Model like the picture, two Hammers]
Range: -, S: +3, AP: 2, Type: Melee, Master-Crafted, Concussive

...Or something.

bluntpencil

2014-12-28, 08:41 PM

Dorn's Fury doesn't really fit the character as portrayed. That's something Lysander should have instead. Also, it's over complicated.

A good rule for a master of Heavy Weapons would be Relentless. It's also very Imperial Fists! Pair it with a Devastator Squad, and a CM's Orbital Bombardment...

I'd give him proper Eternal Warrior.

His Warlord trait... should probably be less powerful, but affect the whole army. He seems to be a bigger picture type.

The hammers are better than the Axe Mortalis. Dante should probably be considerably better in assault than newboymissilecaptain.

Also, another problem: he seems to be way better than Pedro on many ways, and that will just not stand. :P

bluntpencil

2014-12-28, 09:13 PM

My take:

He riffs on Imperial Fist themes and rules (like Bolter Drill redone into Heavy Weapons Drill). His Warlord Trait, a pre-existing Command Trait, follows a similar theme, and means that, although he gives a substantial buff to Devastators, he can go off and also buff Sternguard or whatever.

He's good in melee, but is primarily to buff shooting army-wide.

Actually, scratch Target Priority, it doesn't gel well with Imperial Fists. Going for Strategic Genius. It fits thematically - he's smarter than Lysander. Storm of Fire might also be good.

Chapter Master Vorn Hagen

HQ, 235 points
Statline: As Chapter Master

Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)

Wargear: Auspex, Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Iron Halo, Two Thunder Hammers
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists), Eternal Warrior, Heavy Weapons Drill, Independent Character, Orbital Bombardment
Chapter Relic: Duty Unending
Warlord Trait: Storm of Fire

Heavy Weapons Drill: If he is your Warlord, all models with Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) in the army may re-roll 1s to hit with Heavy weapons.

Duty Unending: Duty Unending is a Signum, set with the wisdom of a host of Imperial Fists' Chapter Masters, carved onto slivers of their own bones.

It grants the Relentless rule to the bearer and his unit, on top of the usual rules for a Signum.

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-28, 10:00 PM

Squark

2014-12-28, 10:22 PM

Query: When the Blood Angels codex says an Assault Marine sergeant can replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol with items from the Melee/Ranged Weapons lists, does that mean he can take two inferno pistols and go gunslinger?

Yes. Pretty much all Marine characters can do that. They just don't because plasmaguns (And combi-weapons) are much, much cheaper, and better almost all the time.. Infernus Pistols are better than plasma pistols (Then again, at their current price, so is almost everything), so Blood Angels are more likely to take advantage of the option. Still not worth it in my opinion.

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-28, 10:27 PM

Just checking. He was doing that stunt to get four melta weapons on a five man squad in a free drop pod, and I wanted to make sure that was kosher for him before he takes it to an out of town tournament next weekend. :smalltongue: I got roundly stomped by a five pod alpha strike; he had a whole Suicide Sternguard setup with eight combimeltas, two heavy flamers, the whole nine yards stuck with nothing to do when it came in on the second turn, because he'd filled the line with so many pods and Marines the first turn that it didn't have anywhere to land. XD

Vaz

2014-12-28, 10:28 PM

Following the quotes of him in Sentinels of Terra, Hagan sounds like he's one who not only distrusts Lysander (special rule; may not be in the same unit as Lysander). Also, following Taladorn, less friendly to allies - Allies count as Allies of Convenience maybe? Less painful if you're mono IF, but there otherwise.

I'd also give his Hammer just normal paired Power Mauls, but give him Smash, so that he has a S10 hit with which he can hit a vehicle and AP2 because. As for being MC'd obviously. Never understood why they never explicitly state past the fluff that paired relics are actually paired. IIRC only the Wolf Champions relics did that. Maybe some form of Eagle which works acts like Servo Skulls.

Cheesegear

2014-12-28, 10:31 PM

My take:

Good stuff. But, you know what? Screw the picture. I just want something cool, that isn't being done anywhere else, and I don't want to hamstring myself by not taking a Bike.

HQ, 260 Points

WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv
Unit Type
Unit Composition

Vorn Hagen
6
5
5
5
4
5
4
10
2+
Infantry (Character)
1 (Unique)

Special Rules: ATSKNF, CT (Imperial Fists)*, Decimator Protocols, Eternal Warrior, Heavy Weapons Drill, Independent Character, Siege Master (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/Siege_Assault_Van.pdf)**, Slow and Purposeful, Tank Hunters, Oribtal Bombardment, Very Bulky

A Detachment including Vorn Hagen may take an Honour Guard squad. Additionally, you may not take a Chapter Master in a Detachment which includes Vorn Hagen.

Wargear: Auspex, Centurion Warsuit with Missile Launcher (with Frag and Krak Missiles) and Twin-Linked Lascannon, Iron Halo, Omniscope

Heavy Weapons Drill: Instead of making any Shooting attacks, Vorn Hagen may allow any Imperial Fists unit he has joined to fire Snap Shots on full Ballistic Skill.

*Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists): Devastator and Centurion Devastator models in Vorn Hagen's Detachment do not gain Tank Hunters, instead, apply the following rule.

**Siege Master: Replace the second and third sentences with
"In addition, after Deployment but before Scout moves are made, all Devastator Squads and Centurion Devastator Squads in Vorn Hagen's Detachment may take either Tank Hunters, Monster Hunter, Interceptor or Shred special rules for the duration of the game."

Warlord Trait: Storm of Fire

Vaz

2014-12-28, 10:51 PM

World Eaters Legion Warband
HQ; 1 Minimum, 2 Maximum
Elite; 2 Minimum, 8 Maximum
Troop; 10 Maximum
Fast Attack; 4 Maximum
Heavy Support; 2 Maximum

Restrictions;
Only units from the Chaos Space Marine Faction with the Mark of Khorne, or units from the Chaos Daemon Faction with the Daemon of Khorne special rule may be selected for this detachment. Dedicated Transports are the exception to this rule. All minimum requirements must be met by models from the Chaos Space Marine Faction, and if the Warlord if chosen from this detachment, it too must also be from the Chaos Space Marine Faction.
You may not take more models with the Daemon Special Rule than you may take models without the rule. Monstrous Creatures count as the same number of starting number of wounds on their profile for this purpose, rather than 1.
Chaos Cultists may not be selected by this detachment.

Special Rules;
The Blood God's Favoured; The Mark of Khorne and Veterans of the Long War upgrades are a free upgrade for models from the Chaos Space Marine Faction eligible to take it. When rolling for Warp Storm, you may choose to roll a dice. On a 5+, you may count this result as a 7. In addition, all models gain the Adamantium Will, Furious Charge and Scout special rules.

Bloodborne Breach; The very presence of the slaughtermasters of the World Eaters has caused the veil of reality to draw thin, attracting Daemons to the fore. All melee weapons belonging to characters within this detachment gain the Force special rule. During friendly Psychic Phases only, characters from this formation gain the Psyker (Mastery Level 1) special rule, although they do not know or generate any powers with the exception of the Force special power (with the exception below). These characters do not add their Mastery Level to the roll to generate Warp Charge either. When manifesting powers, they count as Daemons for the purposes of whether they suffer a Perils of the Warp. Whenever a unit from this detachment passes a Morale check, or a character from this detachment kills an enemy model in a challenge, then they gain a number of dice (placed into a Bloodborne Breach pool) equal to the value they passed the morale check by, or by the number of starting wounds/hull points on the enemy model's profile. During your following friendly Psychic Phase, before generating warp charge, you may choose to remove a number of dice (listed in brackets next to the ) to gain additional effects. Any unused dice are added into the Warp Charge pool.
-- Choose a character from this detachment. It knows an additional (conjuration only) power from the Malefic Powers list. When manifesting this power, only models with the Daemon of Khorne special rule may be selected. (1 per conjuration power). Knowledge of this power lasts until the end of the current phase.
-- Choose a character from this detachment. Grant additional Mastery Levels (1 per Mastery Level) This increased Mastery Level lasts until the end of the current phase.
-- Choose a character from this detachment. When it makes a Psychic Test during that phase, you may select one dice whenever it makes a Psychic Test - this one dice passes the check on a 2+, rather than 4+. (2 per dice).This may only be selected once per character, and lasts only until the end of the current phase.
-- Choose a character from this detachment. Add +1 to Deny the Witch rolls the character or any model within his unit is called upon to make. (1 per +1). Lasts until the start of the following friendly psychic phase.
-- Choose a character from this detachment. Gains a Psychic Hood with a 6" range, rather than 12". For every dice spent, gains an additional 6" range on the hood. (2 for the hood, 1 per 6"). Lasts until the start of the following friendly psychic phase.
-- Choose an enemy unit. Roll a dice. On a 6+, it immediately loses the benefits from any psychic power(s) affecting it. For each dice, add +1 to this dice roll. (3 for the roll, 1 for each additional dice).
-- Choose a friendly unit from this detachment. Until the start of the next friendly Psychic Phase, that unit can assault after running or arriving from reserve. (1 per unit).
-- Choose a friendly vehicle from this detachment. Immediately make a Master of Mechanism (see Warpsmith) roll for each dice expended (1 per roll). If a model with this special rule is already in base contact with the vehicle chosen, the roll passes on a 3+ rather than a 5+.
-- Choose a friendly Flying Monstrous Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature from this detachment that has just changed Flight mode from Swooping to Gliding. That model may now declare a charge during that turn. (3 per Creature).
-- Choose a friendly unit that has just disembarked from a Dedicated Transport (both chosen from this detachment.) That unit may now declare a charge during that turn (1 per creature).

High Handed Slayers; If the Warlord is chosen from this Detachment, whenever it makes a roll on the Dark Apotheosis Table, it may spend any number of dice currently in the Bloodborne Breach pool to change the results of the roll on the Dark Apotheosis table - each dice discarded changes one of the dice by +1 or -1. The Warlord may always charge after running, and grants him and his unit the Fleet special rule, and always has the Legendary Fighter Warlord Trait.

Destroyer blades; Spiked Rams, weaponized-angle grinders and flailing chains whip with abandon and cruel vicious murder. Whenever a vehicle from this detachment makes a Ram or Tank Shock, it causes an addition D6 S3 AP6 hits. For every full 1" moved greater than 6 until the vehicle stopped, it deals 1 more hit, and they are resolved at +1 Strength (to a maximum of 10) and -1 AP (to a maximum of AP2). Any model attacking such a vehicle in assault takes a S3 AP6 for every attack that hits it. Vehicles should be modeled appropriately.

Khorne's Sacred Number; If ever you take a Leadership test of any kind, and get a result of 8 on the dice (before modifiers), add +1 to the Bloodborne Breach pool. In addition, if at the start of the assault phase you have any units from this detachment with the number of models within the unit is any multiple of exactly 8, then that unit generates one dice for the Bloodborne Breach pool. Rather than adding this dice to the pool, however, this unit may declare a charge during that assault phase, even if there was something that prevented them from doing so normally (i.e just Disembarked from a vehicle, or arrived from Deep Strike etc).

Been trying to come up with some Homebrew detachments for a LGS Campaign. This is what I've come up with, in an attempt to get old school Daemons back in.

In short, kill things/be brave and get a resource which allows you to do cool things like summon Daemons normally not available to monokhorne, and assault from Deep Strike/vehicles/swoop. Any views/opinions?

On another note, does anyone have a complete list of missions that I can look through for ideas for said campaign? Like Altar of War, the Datacards for Tactical Objectives etc.

bluntpencil

2014-12-28, 11:05 PM

How about this, for the awesome Centurion idea:

I'd remove Adamantium Will, he has loads of special snowflake things already, no point heaping loads of rules on - it makes him unwieldy. Likewise, I'd replace Siege Master with the following...

Heavy Weapons Drill: All models with CT (Imperial Fists) in the army may re-roll 1s to hit with Heavy Weapons if Vorn Hagen is the Warlord.

Relic: Duty Unending

This device, a networked targeting device and strategic cogitator, operates as a Signum, with an additional benefit.

Whenever the squad shoots, if Vorn Hagen elects not to shoot, his squad may fire Snap Shots at their full Ballistic Skill.

Cheesegear

2014-12-28, 11:22 PM

World Eaters Legion Warband

Holy Hell. I thought I was making something complicated when I was only making one dude. I'd scale it back. I like Forge World too, their rules are complicated because they're trying to get it right. But, if you're more complicated that Forge World's Heresy rules, you may need to scale it back.

On another note, does anyone have a complete list of missions that I can look through for ideas for said campaign? Like Altar of War, the Datacards for Tactical Objectives etc.

...What?
There's the Altar of War (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Altar_of_War) book which has a bunch of stuff in it.

Heavy Weapons Drill: All models with CT (Imperial Fists) in the army may re-roll 1s to hit if Vorn Hagen is the Warlord.

Nah. That seems a bit good. Fists are already re-rolling 1s with Bolt weapons, what you're doing is giving every model in the Detachment Ultramarines' Tactical Doctrine, every turn. Which is already stupid good even when you only get one turn of it.

Relic: Duty Unending

Don't be silly. That's the name of his armour! Since Indomitable was taken. :smallwink:

Whenever the squad shoots, if Vorn Hagen elects not to shoot, his squad may fire Snap Shots at their full Ballistic Skill.

I like that better than Skyfire! And electing not to shoot actually makes him more fair. He can shoot a Twin-Linked BS5 Lascannon and Missile Launcher with Tank Hunters, or he can give his squad what amounts to Skyfire. That's much better. Also throw on an Auspex if he's not going to shoot. If a Flier is only 12" away, they deserve to be shot at, and 12" isn't nearly enough time to Jink properly.

bluntpencil

2014-12-28, 11:27 PM

Nah. That seems a bit good. Fists are already re-rolling 1s with Bolt weapons, what you're doing is giving every model in the Detachment Ultramarines' Tactical Doctrine, every turn. Which is already stupid good even when you only get one turn of it.

Ooops, I forgot to write 'with Heavy weapons'. So, they get bonuses for Lascannons as well as Heavy Bolters.

Cheesegear

2014-12-28, 11:36 PM

Ooops, I forgot to write 'with Heavy weapons'. So, they get bonuses for Lascannons as well as Heavy Bolters.

Maybe make it once per game. Once per game, all models in his Detachment can re-roll 1s To Hit when firing Heavy weapons.

bluntpencil

2014-12-28, 11:48 PM

Maybe make it once per game. Once per game, all models in his Detachment can re-roll 1s To Hit when firing Heavy weapons.

No need, really. Best to cut it out. Storm of Fire is similar enough.

Cheesegear

2014-12-29, 12:14 AM

No need, really. Best to cut it out. Storm of Fire is similar enough.

Well, job's a good'un. Providing my opponents aren't wussies, I should use him sometime over the weekend. Given the amount of...Stuff...That's in the game right now, as long as you have a brain and cost things appropriately, there's no reason that you can't homebrew your own stuff if you really want to. What? You think its really going to be better than cheap-as-free Power Weapons on Vanguard and free Combi-Weapons on Sternguard? Yeah right.

Requizen

2014-12-29, 05:46 AM

The more I look at Imperials the more I realize that there is just a ludicrous amount of ally potential in there. A very jarring realization from my Necrons. Creating an amalgamation of detachments is really interesting to me. For example, Scions as the main force, a Knight, an Assassin of one type or another, and some Inquisitors. Hell, even could cut some of them out for Legion of the Damned, who are not only pretty cool but also could function as a decent "front line" with 3++ and early anti-armor with their Ignores Cover Melta/Multi-meltas.

I'm actually quite excited to make a Detachment Crazy army and see how it works out! I don't know how competitive I could make something like that, but it would be a fun army to play for sure. The Imperium really does get the best toys :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2014-12-29, 09:18 AM

For example, Scions as the main force, a Knight, an Assassin of one type or another, and some Inquisitors.

*Cough*

(W) Pedro Kantor - 185 Points

Scouts (x5) + Land Speeder Storm - 100 Points
Scouts (x5) + Land Speeder Storm - 100 Points

Sternguard (x10); x8 Combi-Meltas + Drop Pod - 345 Points
Sternguard (x10); x6 Combi-Plasmas + Drop Pod - 325 Points
Sternguard (x5); x2 Heavy Flamers, Melta Bombs + Drop Pod - 180 Points

Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor; x3 Servo Skulls, Psyker - 64 Points
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband; x2 Acolytes, Psyker - 18 Points
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband; x2 Acolytes, Psyker - 18 Points

MT Command Squad - 85 Points
MT Scions (x5); x2 Meltaguns - 90 Points

Culexus Assassin - 140 Points

Total: 1750 Points

I may have been thinking about this for a long time, or maybe I haven't...We'll never know.

Requizen

2014-12-29, 10:00 AM

*Cough*

Not a bad one at all, I'd say. This ability to pick and choose from, let's see, about 12 different codices? That's pretty wicked, and why pretty much any Imperium codex is almost instantly viable in my book. The Eldar BB and Chaos BB setups aren't nearly as good. Sure, they have their gimmicks. Though, watching 10 Wraithguards perfect Deep Strike into enemy lines with Webway Portal is pretty sick.

The only thing I can think of for Chaos is using Huron/Ahriman to be able to Infiltrate Daemon things like Flamers or troops. Which is cool, but not entirely practical a lot of times. Tzeentch Daemons bringing Div for CSM is nice, but CSM isn't a shooting book. I mean yes, putting Prescience or Invisibility on Obliterators, Havocs, etc can make them very effective, but it's not going to make them Tau or Eldar suddenly.

Drasius

2014-12-29, 10:35 AM

Have been tentatively invited to cover a missing slot in our north vs south grudge match coming up in a few weeks.

Only 1250, so thinking something along the line of;

300 - Fateweaver
95 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML2, Disc

69 - 3x Flamers
69 - 3x Flamers
69 - 3x Flamers

99 - 11x Horrors
99 - 11x Horrors

150 - 6x Screamers

100 - Burning Chariot
100 - Burning Chariot
100 - Burning Chariot

1250

Only 10 + d6 warp charge worries me a bit, as I'm only going to have enough for the bare minimum of summoning if I want to have any protections up on fateweaver and the screamers or I will need to forgo summons if fateweaver needs to do anything (shriek, doombolt, molten beam etc). I'm hoping that the burning chariots and shriek can cover MC duty with the Chariots and screamers picking up the AV role. Lots of AI, a reasonably fast force all round with backfield objectve squatters in the horrors. Sorely lacking in anti flyer, though the horrors and fateweaver can glance AV11 down with volume of fire if I get desperate.

Lack of grimoure is also an annoyance, but I'm not sure what to drop to fit it in, and I'm afraid I've lost big guns before we even roll off for deployment. Part of me also wants to combine all the flamer units together and start them on the board and just run around templating the hell out of anything outside a transport.

I suspect I'll be matched up against Wolf/Ultra double grav cents in pods with tiggy and Div Rune priest, though 'Nids (Flyrant, Tervigon, Mawloc and lots of gaunts, maybe a crone), Jet Council or Tau (std stuff, IA 'Tide, Buffy, missilesides, a skyray, MP Crisis etc) are not out of the question either.

No lords of war or superheavies allowed, nor anything with AV15.

Decidedly different list option;

135 - Celestine

140 - 5x Sisters, 2x Melta, Immolator
130 - 5x Sisters, 2x Flamer, Immolator

125 - 7x Seraphim, 2x Pairs of Hand Flamers
165 - 5x Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator
165 - 5x Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator

130 - Exorcist, Stormbolter
130 - Exorcist, Stormbolter
130 - Exorcist, Stormbolter

1250

Would be nice if facing wave serpents, and should cause MC heavy 'Nids some issues, but I think the Daemons list is stronger.

Thoughts?

Requizen

2014-12-29, 11:57 AM

Have been tentatively invited to cover a missing slot in our north vs south grudge match coming up in a few weeks.

Only 1250, so thinking something along the line of;

300 - Fateweaver
95 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML2, Disc

69 - 3x Flamers
69 - 3x Flamers
69 - 3x Flamers

99 - 11x Horrors
99 - 11x Horrors

150 - 6x Screamers

100 - Burning Chariot
100 - Burning Chariot
100 - Burning Chariot

1250

Only 10 + d6 warp charge worries me a bit, as I'm only going to have enough for the bare minimum of summoning if I want to have any protections up on fateweaver and the screamers or I will need to forgo summons if fateweaver needs to do anything (shriek, doombolt, molten beam etc). I'm hoping that the burning chariots and shriek can cover MC duty with the Chariots and screamers picking up the AV role. Lots of AI, a reasonably fast force all round with backfield objectve squatters in the horrors. Sorely lacking in anti flyer, though the horrors and fateweaver can glance AV11 down with volume of fire if I get desperate.

Lack of grimoure is also an annoyance, but I'm not sure what to drop to fit it in, and I'm afraid I've lost big guns before we even roll off for deployment. Part of me also wants to combine all the flamer units together and start them on the board and just run around templating the hell out of anything outside a transport.

Funny, my next Daemon purchases are going to be along those lines. Flamers and Chariots and Screamers, oh my. Have you used them before? Flamers intrigue me but also somewhat worry me - they have the potential to put out a rather sizable amount of damage (fast models that each carry an AP4 flamer would make my Tau friend poop himself), but Warpflame is still irksome and they're not exactly the toughest models on the table while they're trying to get in Flamer range.

I'm still interested in Seekers as well, though partially turned off for the same reasons. Fragile units running across the table never inspire confidence in me.

Wext

2014-12-29, 06:44 PM

My group and I are practicing with our new armies, and so far I've been getting my butt kicked by their hordes of Ork boys and Nids. While I can take out a synapse or his lootas, I always get rushed by the boyz or gaunts they've got and are hiding their kited out melee warboss/Mc in while I've only got so many marines on the board. We've been doing low points so far, 500-750, but I think I've finally started to get a hand on things for our move to practicing 1000 points before our campaign. Any advice on this list (btw, we've agreed to flyers at 1000 points, so gotta watch out for crones/bombers now.)

Ultramarines Tactics
(W) Librarian - 65 Points

Tactical Squad; x9 Marines; Flamer + Drop Pod - 166 Points
Tactical Squad; x10 Marines; Flamer + Drop Pod - 180 Points
Scout Squad; x5 Scouts Sniper Rifles - 60 Points

Devastator Squad; 5 Marines; x3 Missile Launchers + Drop Pod -150 Points
Whirlwind x2 - 130 Points

751 Points

Scouts infiltrate onto an objective somewhere on the field or a high point to take out the Kannons I know he love to take, while the Devastators start somewhere they can blow things to pieces like Tervigons or Trukks/Various Wagons. Devastators deploy without their pod, and Librarian stays with the small tac squad in a pod. First turn begins, the empty pod stays in reserve while the two full ones land on one of the big mobs with a his warlord in it. Telepathy Librarian point blank does his Psychic Shriek, and if I get lucky Terrify before hand. Shooting phase happens, I declare Ultramarines Tactical Doctrine before going ham. Open up with flamers and rerolling bolters, plus storm bolters from the pod into the warlord mobs, and statistically should take out about half of their squads. Then Whirlwinds will take out their cover huggers like lootas or genestealers, and missile launchers will take kannons/carnifex/left over warlords. Snipers take pot shots and try not to attract attention. Go from there after battle dictates. Kind of new, so any feedback on how to alpha strike is appreciated.

Ultramarine Tactics
(W) Librarian - 65 Points

Tactical Squad; x9 Marines; Flamer + Drop Pod - 166 Points
Tactical Squad; x10 Marines; Flamer + Drop Pod - 180 Points
Scout Squad; x5 Scouts Sniper Rifles - 60 Points

Scout Bikers; x3 Bikers; x2 Grenade Launcher; Locator Beacon - 74 Points
Bike Squad; 6 Bikes; x2 Grav Guns - 156

Devastator Squad; 5 Marines; x4 Missile Launchers + Drop Pod -165 Points
Whirlwind x2 - 130 Points

996 Points

Basically the same plan as above, only with Scout Bikers to guarantee where the pods come down. They'll be a throw away unit I think, but could get some use out of the Grenade Launcher. Bike Squad goes around abusing Salvo to take out any vehicles or MCs they'll have hanging around, while the rest goes according to plan. I'm considering dropping the Scout Bikes and maybe a few bikers for an Inquisitor w/skulls and Divination to stick with the Devastators, possibly get a quad gun if anyone can help me finagle the math. Likewise, opinions are appreciated.

Drasius

2014-12-29, 08:09 PM

From Black Library email Re;Incorruptible (new book)

"The Grey Knights have a well deserved reputation for being shining beacons of purity – not one of their number has ever fallen to the alluring whispers of the Ruinous Powers.

Until now... "

Interesting, interesting. I wonder if it's got to do with the story in the Daemons book involving the chageling, that was a pretty rad story.

Screamers are rad, flamers are rad, warpflame sucks balls, but doesn't matter if the unit is destroyed or rendered combat ineffective in one turn. Don't forget that both flamers and screamers have 2 wounds @ T4 each, making them more durable than you'd expect. Screamers are actually jetbikes and can jink if required (you botched your grimoure roll, you got a 4 on the warp storm table, you didn't get cursed earth or precognitionit's night fighting etc), flamers are actually jump pack infantry, so can move 12" in ze move phase.

I have used both and quite like them, though I'd suggest 5 screamers would be about the minimum I'd run TBH. Flamers in units of 3 deep striking are great, since they've got a reasonably small footprint and even if you lose them they're only 69 points, who cares? Deploy them in a line, like so;

http://psp.tephras.com/tutorials/shade/swag1.jpg

so all three can fire instead of like normal;

http://paulbourke.net/fractals/apollony/1.gif

Where you can probably only get 2 templates off.

A unit of 3 flamers with Pyrocaster is only 74 points and for some reason, the pyrocaster has BS5, so does a decent job manning a quad gun, despite not having any hands. People will also think twice about charging them, which is a bonus.

Screamers are super useful for their flyby attack and their melta jaws certainly come in useful when you need to be popping vehicles.

Edit; New Forgeworld Dreadnought Class;

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/Blogs/AVE432GERD_1HTGERW43_41A.jpg

Looks like they've been playing too much battletech, it reminds me of a Cauldron Born or MadCat MkII

http://www.myrnnyx.com/mechs/BT-253.jpg
http://www.camospecs.com/images/schemes/61_Psycho_CJFDelta_MadCatII2.jpg

I don't think it fits, it just looks like someone's bad conversion, but then, I don't like the look of the contemptor either, so different strokes for different folks I guess?

Requizen

2014-12-29, 09:32 PM

T4 and W2 is pretty nice yeah, but only a handful of models in the book having better than a 5++ is what makes it scary. Sure, Flamers and Screamers are slightly tougher than a Space Marine - but they're saving half of the wounds that Marines are. Still, not bad given how relatively cheap everything (that's not an MC) is.

Vaz

2014-12-29, 09:50 PM

Sweet, old Space Crusade Dreadnought.

Cheesegear

2014-12-30, 09:03 AM

Forge a Narrative!
Inquisitor Lord Torquemada Coteaz stood in the shadowed light of the chamber, watching as the Space Marine in black armour studied a skull with runic inscriptions carved carved into the bone. Judging by the size and shape of the skull, it had to be the skull of a Space Marine. Whoever this Librarian had been in life, psychic traces still resonated from the skull, and whatever the carvings and inscriptions were, they were holding the power in check, limiting its effects to this one, arcane item. The alive Librarian - whom Coteaz knew as Epistolary Ultionis - was now attached to the Deathwatch for some slight against his own Chapter, that, or he had chosen to go. Coteaz suspected the former, since even before the founding of the Inquisition, during the Heresy itself, Imperial Fist Librarians would never leave their Primarch's side by choice. Coteaz would think on it.
Epistolary Ultionis' closed eyes flickered, and the skull on the floor, in front of the Epistolary's cross-legged form began to glow, hoarfrost began to form around the room. Coteaz knew what was happening immediately, drew his pistol and stepped forward, finger on the trigger...Like lightning, a figure came out of the shadows, so fast Coteaz barely had time to think before his pistol was knocked out of his hand and he was pinned to the wall of the small chamber by his throat.
"Step back, Draco." the massive, armoured form in front of Coteaz said. Coteaz didn't know who this Marine was, everyone Coteaz spoke to only referred to his as The Watch Commander, and he had been Lord of Watch Fortress Wraith for as long as anybody could remember, so if anybody called him anything, it was Commander Wraith, but Coteaz knew that wasn't his real name, as secretive as the name of his Watch suggested. However, unlike the Epistolary on the floor with the bright yellow pauldron with a black, clenched gaunlet marking him as an Imperial Fist, the Watch Commander bore no insignia and no identifiers of the Chapter of his birth. The Watch Commander was a Blackshield, one who had forsaken his Chapter never to return. While most Watch Commanders never returned to their home Chapter, many of them still kept keepsakes and icons from their former home. This particular Watch Commander bore no such trappings. But, judging from the way the Commander's eyes bore into Coteaz's soul, trying to find intent, Coteaz could see similarities between the Watch Commander and Ultionis. Commander Wraith was likely some descendent of Rogal Dorn, but, if the Imperial Fists had a placed Watch Commander in the Deathwatch, they'd all but shout it over the Vox-Networks. But, again, Commander Wraith was a Blackshield, so that was unlikely.
"If anyone's going to kill him, it's going to be me." said Commander Wraith. Wraith only just now seemed to realise that he'd been choke-holding Coteaz for almost half a minute, and let the Inquisitor Lord go.
"Threatening Inquisitors comes easy to you, does it?" asked Coteaz, rubbing his throat.
"It does." said the Commander with a straight face. Wraith moved towards the seated Librarian, and Wraith stared long into the Librarian's closed eyes. "I don't know how you removed him from Phalanx's vault, but I'm glad you did. Can you control him?" said Wraith.
Despite the lowered temperature, Ultionis was sweating. "He's trying to fight me. But I can." replied Ultionis.
Whatever techniques the Imperial Fists used to stave off the creeping madness, paranoia, schizophrenia and manic-depression that plagued their Chapter, those same techniques turned out to be inordinately powerful counter-measures to the Warp. The Imperial Fists' Librarium contained some of the most disciplined minds in the Galaxy, and as a result, the Imperial Fists produced some of the strongest Psykers known to mankind, not simply one-offs like Lord Mephiston of the Blood Angel's Chapter. But, on a consistent basis, the Imperial Fists turned over many powerful Psykers, masters of the forces which tried to invade their mind. An Imperial Fists' mind was a fortress, one of their Librarians even more so.
"I trust you." said Commander Wraith, his hand never once wandering to his weapons. The Imperial Fists knew - since Dorn - that Librarians were the last, best and only real line of defence against The Enemy, coupled with Imperial Fists' Librarian's prodigious power, if Wraith was truly an Imperial Fist as Coteaz thought, Coteaz was sure that no-one would be allowed to execute Ultionis, save for Wraith himself, and Emperor help anyone who tried to execute Ultionis before Wraith gave Ultionis the chance he needed to control his mind.
Coteaz felt the temperature in the room drop several degrees, and began shivering, Ultionis and Wraith, with their Marine physiology were immune to the cold, but Ultionis began to grown, the carvings on the skull began to glow even greater, Coteaz, with his psyniscience could feel the battle of wills between Ultionis and whatever conciousness lay within the skull. The entity inside skull was not antagonistic, Coteaz knew that for sure, but it was resisting being controlled, as if the entity did not want to be let out.
Suddenly, Epistolary Ultionis' eyes snapped open, the temperature rose to it's normal climate-controlled temperature, and Coteaz could see the hoarfrost already begin to melt.
"I can commune with him without being consumed." said Epistolary Ultionis.
"Well done." said Watch Commander Wraith, clapping Ultionis on the shoulder "You and I will do great things."
Coteaz asked "How did you know?"
"I know when a Psyker will lose control." said Wraith.
"How?" probed Coteaz.
"An Inquisitor. I killed him." Wraith held out his hand to Ultionis and pulled the Librarian to his feet, the two massive Space Marines moved to the door of the chamber.
"Oh, Watch Commander, my name isn't Draco. You will address me as Inquisitor Coteaz." said Coteaz.
Wraith turned slowly. "I don't care. You Inquisitors are all the same to me."
With that, the Watch Commander walked out the door.

...So that must mean it's BatRep time, right?

Strike Force Wraith
Crimson Fists, CAD
(W) Pedro Kantor - 185 Points

Scout Squad (x5) - 110 Points
Combi-Melta + Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer

Scout Squad (x5) - 110 Points
Combi-Melta + Land Speeder Storm; Heavy Flamer

Sternguard Veteran Squad (x10) - 380 Points
x2 Meltaguns, x7 Combi-Meltas, Power Fist + Drop Pod

Sternguard Veteran Squad (x9); x6 Combi-Plasmas + Drop Pod - 303 Points
Sternguard Veteran Squad (x6); x2 Heavy Flamers + Drop Pod - 197 Points

Devastator Squad (x5); x4 Lascannons - 150 Points
Devastator Squad (x5); x4 Missile Launchers, x2 Flakk Missiles - 150 Points

Sentinels of Terra, CAD
Librarian; Mastery Level 2, Bones of Osrak - 125 Points
Scout Squad (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter - 63 Points
Scout Squad (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter - 63 Points

Inquisition
Inqusitor Coteaz - 100 Points
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor; x3 Servo-Skulls, Psyker - 64 Points

Total: 2000 Points

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/00-ImperialFists_zpsf6b88c8e.png

Armour Storm
Codex AM, Steel Host Formation (Red Waaagh!)
Tank Commander (440)
- (W) Leman Russ Punisher; Heavy Flamer - 140 Points
- Leman Russ Battle Tank; Heavy Flamer - 150 Points
- Leman Russ Battle Tank; Heavy Flamer - 150 Points

Leman Russ Eradicator - 120 Points
Leman Russ Eradicator - 120 Points
Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150 Points
Hydra - 70 Points

Codex MT, CAD
MT Command Squad; x2 Flamers, Vox-Caster - 100 Points
MT Command Squad; x2 Flamers, Vox-Caster - 100 Points
MT Scions (x5); x2 Plasma Guns + Taurox Prime - 180 Points
MT Scions (x7); x2 Plasma Guns, Vox-Caster - 129 Points
MT Scions (x7); x2 Meltaguns, Vox-Caster - 119 Points
MT Scions (x7); x2 Meltaguns, Vox-Caster - 119 Points
MT Scions (x7); x2 Meltaguns - 114 Points
MT Scions (x7); x2 Flamers - 104 Points

Valkyrie; Lascannon - 135 Points

Total: 2000 Points

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/01-CodexAM_zpsc69666d3.png

Deployment and Stuff
Pedro's Warlord Trait is fixed, it's not great. But I don't need to roll. He rolls Preferred Enemy, but, part of the Steel Host Formation, is that he has Preferred Enemy anyway, since he's not using one of the - IMO - better Detachments, he doesn't get to re-roll. So, all in all, Warlord Traits are a bust.
Looking at his list, I see nothing that particularly stands out, so Ultionis rolls on Pyromancy. Mostly I just want the AP4 Primaris, so I roll twice and get Fire Shield and Spontaneous Combustion, I'll take it! Molten Beam would have been nice, but whatever. He doesn't have any Psykers or models with Adamantium Will, so I'm just going to assume that Ultionis is going to be allowed to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants.
Coteaz goes double-Div, getting Perfect Timing and Scrier's Gaze. Gaze I DGAF about, but I also pick up Prescience because Primaris. Perfect Timing and Prescience. Awesome.
The un-named Xenos Inquisitor also rolls Div, gets something I don't even remember because all I really care about is Prescience.

Terrain is standard tournament set up (or what we think it will be) because the after-December tournament season is almost upon us. As much as I love Bikes (Captaaain Falcooon!), it's pretty much what all Space Marine players are doing in 6th/7th, and that's pretty much killed the idea for me. So, I'm just going to play whatever I want, and I like Deathwatch. It also happens that the best 'Deathwatch' use Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics, and it also happens that Imperial Fist Scouts (of which I have almost a whole Scout Company of) are pretty great. So I'm going to run Deathwatch, with Scouts, to a tournament, and I'm going to enjoy myself. The only thing missing from my 'tournament' list, is a Culexus Assassin, but that's not relevant to this game. I know I need one, I just don't know where to find the points for one.

I plant my three Servo-Skulls on the 7" away from his DZ, 'cause that's where I will most likely want my Drop Pods to land, because Servo-Skulls for my army are the best. My Lascannons set up on my right, and Coteaz with Interceptor joins my Devastator unit with Flakk Missiles. My Xenos Inquisitor goes into the Plasma squad, because Prescience, but I think if I want to be able to deal with Tranny C'Tans, I may need Combi-Gravs since Poison Ammo doesn't work on Gargantuans. Crap. Anyway, I'm going on about things that aren't relevant. Play-testing is a thing, you should do it. Ultionis and Wraith join my AP4 Sternguard squad and that's done.

He sees my Deep Striking-ness, and deploys his Warlord far per the map. That's right. Look at that. We roll Emperor's Will (boring), and place our Objectives in opposite corners, he doesn't have anything on his Objective, but I also know that he's got five units in Reserve, all with Deep Strike. If I can get my Land Speeder Storms on his Objective, that'll create a whole mess of problems for him. Mostly, I just need the Jamming Beacon for Daemon Summoning, but Storm Troopers work too. I infiltrate my Scouts in the middle of the board, since I want board control, I then Scout everything really aggressively. His Eradicators actually scare me, because AP4 Ignores Cover is scary - Hell, I have it too! Nevertheless, here we go!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/03-Deployment_zps31adc780.png

Turn 1
He Seizes. But I'm playing with Deep Strikes and I really, really want to go first. So Coteaz forces the re-roll, and no Seize for my opponent. 100 Points to see 'that face' is totally worth it.
"Which one is the Warlord?"
When you hear that sentence, you know he's about to die. My opponent is no different. My Melta-squad only Scatters an inch thanks to Servo Skulls, and the squad inside splits into Combat Squads ready to Melta some 'Russ. I try and Drop my Plasma squad behind his Eradicators, but I'm being stupid and not using my Servo Skulls that only cost 3 Points for some reason, and my Drop Pod scatters off the board. I scoot my Land Speeder Storms up onto his Objective and that's movement done. Coteaz casts Prescience on the Missile-Devs.

8 Melta weapons is mathematically devised to roll at least one '7' against AV14, I've got nine because I hate dice. I hold one of the Combi-Meltas back and shoot eight Melta weapons into the Front AV14 of his Warlord. I end up rolling two 7s on the Damage table, and that'll do it. He tried to Look Out, Sir! but that sounded totally wrong to me, and we looked it up, and sure enough, Vehicles can't LOS, then my second '7' carries over to the next one in the Squadron, and so, using eight Melta weapons, I killed not one AV14 vehicle, but two. In the first turn. That gets me First Blood and Slay the Warlord. That's the plan. Tournament army success!
My Missile-Devs can only Score Glances with S8, but Tank Hunters gives them re-rolls, and I score a single Glancing Hit on his Battle Tank.
My Lascannons aim for the easy kill on the Taurox Prime, since the Tanks it was guarding are literally no longer there because of Explodes!, and so don't provide Cover Saves from Wrecked results, anyway, Tank Hunting Lascannons against a Taurox Prime are a non-issue, and the thing is destroyed.

As far as alpha strikes go, it couldn't have gone better. Wait, I saw it as soon as I wrote it. If my Plasma squad hadn't Mishap'd, it would have been better. It would be great if Scrier's Gaze actually worked. :smallannoyed:

He moves his things forwards, as predicted, the Eradicators destroy both Scout squads, AP4 Ignores Cover. Get on it. Between a Battle Cannon, Hot-Shot Lasguns and a pair of Plasma Guns, my whole 10-man Sternguard is annihilated. Fair's fair. The Battle Cannon shot even clipped the Drop Pod, taking off a Hull Point. The remaining Battle Cannon fires at my Missile Devs, and the Sergeant LOS-es onto a random Marine. I need the BS5. For later.

A lot of people tell me that ~400 Points is way too many to waste on a 'suicide squad' that's just going to get killed. Funny you should say that. I just netted two Victory Points on the first turn, and because the Tank Commander is dead, my opponent loses the bonuses for having Steel Host in the first place. 400 Points is too many points to spend on killing one unit. 400 Points is more than enough to spend to get 2 VPs and killing your opponent's best unit. I don't know how many Points a VP is worth, but whatever it is, VPs are worth a lot.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/04-Turn1_zpscb1a1155.png

Turn 2
My Deathwatch are obviously going to play clean up, because both my Drop Pods fail their Reserve rolls. I'd prefer that my Plasma squad came on, because my opponent made an error by moving his Tanks forwards, giving me more room to Deep Strike in, since Eradicators have a 36" range and could've killed the Scouts without moving forwards. I didn't want my 'AP4' squad on the board anyway since he doesn't have any Storm Troopers on the board yet. One of my 'Storms parks on his Objective, while the other moves slightly off to get a good angle on the Storm Troopers. Using pre-measuring, I try and see if I can get within 6" to use my Sergeant's Combi-Melta on the Leman Russ, but that would require a bad angle on the Storm Troopers, and the 'Troopers have Objective Secured, so I don't want them anywhere near an Objective if I can help it.

Coteaz casts Prescience.
My Tank Hunting Lascannons scratch the Leman Russ, Immobilising it. Locked in the position its in, is fine, because what I'm really worried about is the Flamer on its Hull, which is now locked in the front position. The Turret Battle Cannon I'm not bothered about, 'cause I get a Cover Save against that.
The LS Storm's angle pays off, and its Heavy Flamer roasts all five Storm Troopers, no save. Wounding on a 2+ is great. I love the T3 meta!
The Missile Devs with re-rolls to Hit and re-rolls To Pen., scratch the paint of the other Battle Tank. Down to 1 HP.

His Hydra comes on board, while he gets four Storm Trooper squads as well. One Melta squad tries to Deep Strike near my Land Speeder Storms, and proceeds to Scatter 20 or so inches. "Well that's rude." the squad Scatters off the board, rolls a '1' and dies. "Well that's really rude." His Flamer squad tries to land on my Objective, but a bad Scatter takes it into the trees. His next squad and Command roll fairly well just outside my Lascannon Devastators.
"Now roll Dangerous Terrain for landing in the trees on these guys."
"Nah man, Storm Troopers have Move Through Cover, so automatically pass."
"Even on Deep Strikes?"
"Even on Deep Strikes."
"I don't think that's how that rule works..."
Sure enough, it does work exactly like that. Even an experienced player like me, I've had look in the rulebook twice in two turns. :smallwink:

One Eradicator manages to Immoblise itself in the tress, while the other turns around to focus on the Land Speeder Storms. Fortunately, they don't have Heavy Flamers can can't flame an Open-Topped Transport. Why would they need a Heavy Flamer on the front? That's what the turret weapon is for.

"Land Speeders are Skimmers, right?"
"Of course."
"Good, my Hydra isn't going to waste this game."
"Jink."
"Damn."

He then Orders his Storm Trooper squad for Preferred Enemy, and proceeds to annihilate my Lascannon Devastators with Hot-Shot fire and re-rolling 1 Plasma Guns, leaving only the Sergeant alive, having Gone To Ground, to get away from all the AP3.
The un-Immoblised Battle Tank fires its Battle Cannon, bad Scatter only causes one wound, which I save thanks to the Ruins. He should be dropping Smoke, but he knows Coteaz has Perfect Timing ready to go at the drop of a hat...Or Smoke.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/05-Turn2_zps76abd09e.png

Turn 3
Both my remaining Drop Pods come down. Wraith, Ultionis and the Heavy Flamers come down next to his MT Command (Servo-Skull, no Scatter), and the Plasma squad and Xenos Psyker arrives in my opponent's backfield since he moved his Tanks forwards when he really didn't have to. I mean, he saw what I was trying to do, and I Mishap'd. A better move would have been to move backwards to only allow Front Armour 14 to be shot at, but, I don't know. Maybe he thought something different would happen?
My Land Speeder Storm moves 6" forwards and drops the Scouts out the front.

Psychic Phase. For those of you who don't know the Bones of Osrak (I don't know why 'bones', plural, since in the Fluff its just the skull) is a Sentinels of Terra Relic, that lets the Psyker generate one extra Warp Charge, in addition, they can re-roll Psychic Tests. In 7th Ed., Psychic Tests work differently than they did in 6th, making the Bones of Osrak stupidly powerful - just like Chaos Marine Spell Familiars. The problem is that Sentinels of Terra is chosen using CT (Imperial Fists), and Crimson Fists, despite being a 'Crimson Fist Detachment' under Pedro's rules, still use CT (Imperial Fists), and Space Marines can only Ally with Space Marines using different CT. Means that for me, personally, I need to run a CAD instead of AD, but that's cool, that just means I get more Scouts who re-roll all Bolt shots, instead of just 1s. Between BS3 and BS4, re-rolling 1s doesn't make a difference because you've got the same chance to re-roll. Under Sentinels of Terra, you re-roll all shots, and on BS3 models, that's actually really good. Like Necrons and Jinking. Re-rolls are good. Anyway, where was I?

"Epistolary. Do the thing." said Watch Commander Wraith.
Ultionis held the eight thousand year old skull of Librarian Osrak in his hand, hoarfrost began to form on Ultionis' armour as he channelled the power of long-dead Psyker, in addition to his own. Ultionis had touched the mind of Swarmlord, had sparred with Daemon Princes and lived to tell the tale. Ultionis had stared into the abyss, and he had not blinked. Ultionis had gleaned the secret of Osrak. Osrak had found himself the secret of immortality. Touching the mind of Osrak had told Ultionis that Osrak, in M32, had scrimshawed his own skull with Eldar runes to make a crude Spirit Stone. Ultionis had seen Eldar xenos thrown into a panic when their Spirit Stone was confiscated, or otherwise removed from their person. By turning his own head into a Spirit Stone, Osrak had guarenteed himself immortality, as the only his 'spirit stone' could be removed, was by removal of Osrak's own head, and that would kill him anyway, rendering the project successful. Osrak was immortal, Ultionis had to admit that Osrak had been brilliant. However, as an Imperial Fist, Osrak's burden of duty would last forever. Dying was easy, and Librarian Osrak had elected not to, ever. By carving runes into his own skull. Ultionis would have to converse with Osrak at a later time, only weeks ago had Ultionis even proved worthy of Osrak's assistance.

Epistolary Goku Ultionis throws five dice into Spontaneous Combustion. I only need two. I completely explode the centre model in my opponent's Storm Troopers, the Blast marker is centred on a unit in a 'Deep Strike Circle', I hit all of them. Wounding on 2s, no save.

"Him-on-Earth!" swore Wraith, as he watched seven men explode in fire and the Psyker next to him had barely even blinked.
"I'm not finished." Ultionis said, however his voice was not his alone, Wraith could hear a second voice, deeper and older than Ultionis. Fire burned in Goku's eyes as he swept his arms up into the air and fire burst out of the ground."

I put one dice into Fire Shield, fail, re-roll, and succeed. Bones of Osrak are awesome.
With my last two dice, my Xenos Inquisitor casts Prescience on the Plasma squad.

My Plasma squad unloads its Plasma cargo into the back of the Immobilised Eradicator. 12 shots, with re-rolls To Hit into Rear Armour, I do a lot of damage, he gets a Cover Save, but I only need to deal 3 HPs worth of damage, and the Eradicator is Wrecked. My Sternguard with two Heavy Flamers, using their Kraken Bolts (AP4), and Wraith with his Assault 4, AP4 Storm Bolter completely annihilate the MT Command Squad.

Coteaz didn't cast Prescience this round, and Glancing on 6s is still bad, even when you have re-rolls, and my Missile-Devs do nothing to the Leman Russ this turn.
My Scouts Charge the second Eradicator (I forgot I had a Combi-Melta), Grenades hit the Rear Armour, and I manage to Weapon Destroy the Heavy Bolter on the front. Not good enough.

The rest of his army comes onto the board, he drops an MT Command and Trooper squad down next to Wraith's squad, going for a Warlord kill, and the Valkyrie and last Melta squad come on my flank gunning hard for my Objective, since my opponent has figured that Deep Striking onto a Land Speeder Storm is a really bad idea - that's what its there for! Board control!
His moves his Eradicator backwards, and moves his Storm Troopers in the Forest towards my Objective some more.

"Fire Shield. Models within 6" treat terrain as Dangerous, so, Deep Striking into that..."
"Dangerous Terrain check?"
"Yeah."
"Nah man. Strom Troopers. I pass."
"Oh, right."

His Eradicator drops a Nova shell on my Scouts, killing them all, while the Battle Tank swivels it's turret and blows the LS Storm out of the sky. Jink decided not to work.
His Hydra goes for my second LS Storm on the Objective, but Jinking actually does work this time, and my 'Storm isn't blown up.

His MT Command and Troopers try and blow away Wraith and his retinue. But Ultionis is all over it with his Fire Shield giving the squad a 4+ Cover Save, like a boss. You got AP3 ammo? I've got a Cover Save. Thousand Sons have the same problem, but Storm Troopers are like, half the points and can take Special weapons. In any case, four Marines die. Wraith passes his Morale check because why wouldn't he on Ld10, under a volley of shots and some Valkyrie back up, my Missile Devs are cut down to Coteaz and a Flakk Missile Marine.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/06-Turn3_zps6b660848.png

Turn 4
Okay, Turn 4. My opponent is playing MSU, and has more units on the board than I do. How can I win? The Eradicator has an AP4 Ignores Cover weapon, and will kill my Scouts the second they get out of their Storm. The Objective in my DZ is basically gone, there's two models on the Objective, even if I don't die, his Storm Troopers have Objective Secured, and my Devastators don't. So really I can do whatever I want with Coteaz now, if he dies, bad luck, if he doesn't, even better. Using pre-measuring, Wraith is 16" away from the Eradicator, if he makes the Charge on a 10, he can donkey punch the Eradicator to death. However if he fails the Charge, he's standing in the open ready for a Battle Cannon to the face from the Leman Russ, and that's just handing my opponent a Warlord kill, and there's no need to do that. My Plasma Sternguard are only 10" away, even with the -2" Charge through terrain, they should still make it, but that leaves the Hydra open because there's no way I'll be able to get back to it, and the Hydra can shoot down my 'Storm with relative ease, but, so can the Valkyrie. Ah well, everything's ****ed if I don't start by killing the Eradicator, that's the real thing that needs to happen.

My Sternguard jump through the forest on a '5', so far, so good. My Devastator Sergeant from the Lascannon Devs jumps out of the Ruins for no particular reason, and Coteaz decides to go on a suicide run and leaves the Ruins - and Objective - behind in the Ruin. Now, I know I can do this.

Ultionis Manifests Spontaneous Combustion, but two models stick around. Oh really?
"Commander, ever been spat on by a Heldrake?" asked Ultionis.
"Can't say I have, brother." replied Wraith.
Ultionis Manifests Flame Breath, S5 AP4 will kill T3 dudes in 4+ Armour.
With power running through him, channelled through Osrak's skulls, Ultionis puts one dice into Fire Shield, fails, re-rolls and gets it anyway.

Wraith's Assault 4 Bolter, and Heavy Flamers are Assault weapons, so...The MT Command Squad dies, except the Officer, who manages to stick around somehow. Maybe if the Sternguard Sergeant had shot his Boltgun, I'd have those extra wounds, but then I'd have shot a Rapid Fire weapon and wouldn't be able to Assault.

Now. Rules. Witchfire, pg 27. "A Psyker who manifests a witchfire power can target a different unit with his other ranged weapons in the Shooting Phase."
Can the unit he is with, target a different unit as well? Or is it just the Psyker who has this rule? In the preceding sentence, it specifically mentions that the unit can Run and Turbo-Boost, so Witchfires don't stop them from happening, but then the next, new sentence doesn't mention the Psyker's unit. We ruled that they could, since if you manifest multiple Witchfires against multiple units - which you're allowed to do, which Ahriman does frequently - who does the unit shoot? If Ahriman was doing it, it wouldn't be a problem. But I managed to kill the unit I was manifesting Witchfires at, or maybe it doesn't work because I manifested both Powers at the same target causing the problem? We houseruled that the Psyker's unit could shoot at a different target, since the Psyker himself can, and manifesting Witchfires doesn't seem to stop the rest of the unit from Running or Turbo-Boosting even though someone in the unit made a 'shooting attack'.

My last remaining Missile-Dev drops a Frag Missile into the Storm Troopers, killing two models from seven. That'll force a Morale check...They fail! Hands. Up in the air.

Coteaz Charges the Storm Troopers, blocking them from the Objective. He's got 2+ Armour, he doesn't care about Hot-Shot Lasguns. The Storm Troopers can't hurt him, because 2+ Armour, while he starts swinging his Thunder Hammer. People always forget that with 2+ Armour and a Thunder Hammer, Coteaz can fight...As long as his opponents don't have S6 or AP2 weapons...Coteaz wins combat. Morale check at -3! Fail! Sweeping Advance! ...YEAH. Coteaz is the man...Well, not really, like I said, if his opponents can't actually beat him...Okay, Coteaz is a bully Character. I don't care. He's 100 Points.
My Sternguard Charge the Eradicator, netting the 2 HPs they need to Wreck it. Job's a good'un.

Wraith, Ultionis, Sergeant No-Name and Trooper Zorg (an Iron Hand Deathwatch Marine with a Heavy Flamer, only possible to make when Zorg sent me the parts in the mail) Assault the remaining MT Officer. Before anyone can really do anything, Ultionis steps forwards with his S6, AP4 Force Staff and knocks that Officer clean out.

His turn. His Troopers keep running. lol. His Valkyrie drops into Hover mode, and moves really fast, Grav Chuting the Storm Troopers into my Ruins on my Objective.
"I keep telling you, Storm Troopers don't take Dangerous Terrain checks."
His un-Immobilised Leman Russ manages to move the 6" just past the LoS blocker, to see Coteaz in its Turret's sights. I panic. No, I'm fine, because I remembered that Coteaz isn't my Warlord so I really don't care. However, my opponent does manage to get his first Servo-Skull kill, which doesn't count for anything because while it is a model, it's wargear, and wouldn't award Kill Points even if were playing for them.
Uhh...When Spore Mines explode on their own, does that award your opponent KPs? :smallconfused:

His Storm Troopers on 'my' Objective kill the last Missile Dev.
His Leman Russ, barely poking its turret past the blocker, fires a shell at Coteaz. Remember how I'm not panicking? Because I know that a Battle Tank isn't a Demolisher, and doesn't have AP2, which means Coteaz gets to make a save against taking a Battle Cannon to the face. Hey, if Ultionis can tank a Baleflamer in Terminator Armour, Coteaz can take a Battle Tank. But I don't give a **** about Coteaz, 'cause I didn't Forge his Narrative from scratch.
His Immoblised Battle Tank swivels its Turrent and shoots at my Sternguard in the Forest, killing three.

inb4: At the time of writing, I realise that a Flier in Hover Mode can't move ~24", and therefore couldn't Grav Chute the Infantry onto the Objective. That's cool. Whatever. It doesn't really make a difference. The 'Troopers would have simply Run onto the Objective next turn, or something. While the move was illegal, it really didn't change anything. Especially because I realise that if he was really on the ball, he would've known that a Hover-mode Valkyrie could have spun on its axis, and shot Coteaz with a S9, AP2 Lascannon killing him instantly, but that didn't happen - and is what I thought he would do. But, it's Turn 4, my opponent was focussed on the Objective (as he should be) and mistakes were made. But, like I said, the illegal move didn't actually change anything, so I don't care.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/07-Turn4_zps48e22c5d.png

Turn 5
With the Eradicator dead, I'm pretty much in the clear. I just need to make sure Wraith doesn't die to give my opponent the Warlord VP.
Wraith and his unit move up behind the Drop Pod, trying to claim a Cover Save.
My Xenos Inquisitor rolls Prescience, so does Coteaz.

My Sternguard + Inquisitor charge the Battle Tank, it's already Immobilised, so I deal another HP and now its dead.
Coteaz Charges the Battle Tank with his Thunder Hammer, what a man!

The Hydra finally deals two HPs worth of damage to my last 'Storm, Jinking had to run out sometime.
As predicted, the Valkyrie turns around in Hover Mode, and shoots Coteaz in the back with its Lascannon.

Game ends.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/2000%20-%20IF%20vs%20AM/08-Turn5_zps58d980e6.png

Results
I have an Objective, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker.
He has an Objective, and Linebreaker.

6-4, to me.

For a 'What I Want to Play' list, I think its pretty good. I can probably kill a Knight in one turn, and a second over the course of the game at some point. But a third Knight? Or even an Adamantine Lance Formation? That's going to give me some real problems, and I already know that I can't really deal with a Tranny C'Tan at all unless I swap my Combi-Plasmas to Combi-Gravs which are actually equivalent points costs, so it should be okay. Land Speeder Storms did what I want them to at least once, so that means that I know that they're going to be a PitA for Daemons players. So, yeah, overall, I'm pretty happy with the list. It's not as good as Bikes, and I know it doesn't have Lysander + Centurions + Corbulo, which is really powerful. But, I'm in agreement with all of the fluff on this one; I don't actually like Lysander, he's kind of an a-hole, and he's reckless. For a Chapter that's supposedly the 'Champions of Humanity' (Paladins) and a Chapter that prides itself on reason, Lysander is actually the worst Fist ever.
But, as Vorn Hagen suggests, it's probably not his fault. Before he was captured on Malodrax, Lysander was a pretty cool guy. Then he was tortured for a thousand or so years. While his soul is still pure (he's an Imperial Fist, of course it is!), being captured by Chaos has actually messed more with his head than anybody is really willing to admit. Still, if Lysander has fallen to the Curse of the Templar (insert whatever mental illness you feel is appropriate, the writers do), he's a actually really, really good at being a Black Templar. :smallwink:

Now, if Lysander had Phalanx Assault, like he did in 4th Ed., I'd be totally on board with space pirates (pun!).

Notes on Fluff;
I completely made up Osrak's backstory. He's mentioned in Sentinels of Terra, but only that his skull is the only thing left of him, and the skull has been around since M32. So, that's all me if you hate it.
In the Deathwatch RPG, Imperial Fists gain +10 to Willpower. Since Psychic Tests are Willpower Tests, this makes Imperial Fists the best Librarians in the game. Fact. So that's on me, too.

Wraith is not his real name. I actually have his real name in mind, and some people may actually know who the Imperial Fist Blackshield actually is. :smallwink:

awayfromlife

2014-12-30, 02:25 PM

Renegade Paladin

2014-12-30, 04:27 PM

Cheese, killing 2/3 of a unit isn't First Blood. The Tank Commander's squadron is a squadron, after all, and his list says it had three tanks, not two. Hell, since the Warlord is a unit and the unit didn't die, that didn't give you Slay the Warlord either. :smalltongue:

Darthteej

2014-12-30, 04:39 PM

Speaking of "What I Want to Play" armies, I think I want to build a "Herohammer" style army. One ridiculously kitted out, tough squad (or character, I guess) that scares the crap out of my enemies.

What are some good options for this? I haven't really started collecting any one army yet (just been painting various models), but I'm aware of things like Thunderwolf Calvary, Farsight and Crisis Suits, and Screamerstar, but what are other good ones?

Space Marines of all flavors, but particularly Grey Knights, make some good deathstar units. The classic example is Kaldor Draigo+A unit of paladins(the centerpiece of my own army), but nowadays you need some troops to go along with that.