Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[Kurald Galain]

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, Chrismith, and RMS Oceanic. I will update these posts as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS and the other characters.

The aim of this thread is that we give D&D statistics for the characters in the comic based on the events and statements made in the comic, plus statements by The Giant in the forum and his books. For this purpose, we assume that the comic strictly follows the 3.5E D&D rules. We are aware that The Giant has stated that he doesn't always follow the rules, because his goal is to write a story and not to write session reports from a D&D campaign. Nevertheless, in this thread we assume the rules are being followed anyway, and see what stats, feats, and skills could explain what happens. Essentially, that means we're taking the rules side of the comic more seriously than its author does; if you like, you can assume a little footnote on every factoid of this thread that says "* or The Giant used a houserule". Why? Well, because it's Geekery. If Star Trek fans can do it, then so can we :smallwink:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Does The Giant check this thread?
Yes, but only really for spell lists. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411301-Interview-Questions-For-Rich/page4&p=19164058#post19164058)

Q: Which source books are used in the comic?

Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)
Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
Complete Warrior (hexblade)
Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)
Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)
Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)
Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)


Q: In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?


Level
:roy:
:belkar:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png
:elan:
:haley:
:vaarsuvius:


9
12
12
12
12
12
12


10
124
125
124
124
124
124


11
251
???
201
???
???
186


12
???
249
???
???
477
220


13
???, 665
???
556
392
511
397


14
485, 862
???
859
647
???
627


15
-
860
-
860
615
716


16
-
-
-
-
990
935



Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
(1) All named members of the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Order of the Scribble, and the Vector Legion.
(2) Any frequently occurring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.
This means that Daigo and Bandana would be next in line, but we don't have a lot of material on either character.

Q: Which material is covered by this thread?
All comics on the web and in print (including SSDT, Gygax magazine, and the Kickstarter bonus stories), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or the fundraiser.
Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics.

Q: I've heard there was a fight over some topic years ago, and now we're not allowed to discuss it any more. Is that the case?
No; this thread does not have a banned topic list (of course, the forum as a whole has one; please see the board rules for details). Also see the thread rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229756) by Mark Hall.

Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

Q: If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and his victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?
Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?
Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.

Q: What does "Core" mean?
The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM). This is an official term defined by WOTC, who put the word "Core" in big letters on the cover of these three books. No other books are Core, and there is no such thing as "partially Core", "almost Core", or "semi-Core" - every book is either Core or non-Core. Note that both the OOTS comic and this thread contain numerous non-Core elements.

Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

Q: A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
No. As seen in a thousand forum threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

[Kurald Galain]

:roy: Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), Human male Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) 14 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19392374&postcount=533)).
Str 24+ (base strength 20, forum, plus magic belt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html)).
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)).
Age: 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html).
Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Endurance (to sleep in armor without getting fatigued (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html)), Great Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html), Improved Disarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html), Improved Grapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html), Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html), Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Spellsplinter Maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html), Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html).
Skills: Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html), Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1004.html), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), Knowledge: Geography (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), Listen low (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html), Spot low (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html).
Items: Magical armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), club (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html), newspaper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html), formal suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html), shillelagh oil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), non-magical boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html), book, sextant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), runestone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html).

:belkar: Belkar Bitterleaf aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) male Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (forum), total level 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18180388&postcount=1118)).
Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
Dex 13+ (required for Spring Attack).
Int <10 (OOPC).
Wis 8-9 (ability score penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and can use a third-level scroll when buffed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)).
Cha <10 (without any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)).
Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)).
Feats: Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Assault (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html), Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html), Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html); no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
Skills: Balance 5+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html), Craft: Trapmaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html), Move Silently 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Profession: gourmet chef 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Sense Motive 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Speak Language: Halfling (racial), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html), Survival 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Use Magic Device (SSDT).
Abilities: Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html), favored enemy: human (forum) (http://www.sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=467) and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html), scent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).
Items: Unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html), Ring of Jumping +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html), quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), clothespin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), 18 pounds of salt (GYG), book: Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), bucket and spade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), bag of holding full of money (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html), +5 Dagger of Collision (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html), +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html), Feather Fall item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html). Dex 15+, or wears light or no armor (to use two-weapon pounce).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/MrScruffy.png Mr. Scruffy
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889) (forum), Cat male, animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html).
Str 6 (animal companion).
Dex 18 (animal companion).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 2 (racial).
Wis 12 (racial).
Cha 7 (racial).
Age: 7 (WXP).
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
Abilities: Racial abilities; animal companion abilities; 3 tricks, including attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) and come (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).
Items: String (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png Durkon Allotrope Thundershield, pseudonym (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html) male Cleric of Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) 14 (based on spells cast in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)).
Str 20-25 (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html); +6 as vampire).
Dex <14 (dex penalty, SSDT; +4 as vampire).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
Wis 19-25 (required for 7th level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html), and to lose his best 7th level spell to Enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html); +2 as vampire).
Cha <14 (low modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), see also DCF; +4 as vampire).
Age: 55+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html).
Feats: Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html); Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
Skills: Concentration 2+ (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19849945&postcount=851), Knowledge: Religion not maxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language: Dwarven (racial) and Giant (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
Items: Candles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), non-magical full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), deck of cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), heirloom light steel shield and warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html), parcheesi board (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html), flask of liquor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), 10,000+ gp of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html), healing potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html).
Before becoming a vampire, Durkon was Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), had Con ~12 (racial), the ability Turn Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), the Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)), and the spells Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html), Control Winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), Cure Itchy Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Heathen Smiting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Mass Death Ward with backdoor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html), Thor's Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), and Tumor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html).

:elan: Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html), Human male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 14+ (required to retrain to Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0949.html)) / Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) 1+, total level 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18180388&postcount=1118)).
Str 10-11 (KS:H&J, and the same as Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955&postcount=47), forum).
Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)).
Con same as Nale.
Int 4-10 (too low to cast cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), but higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html).
Wis <10 (not even a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)).
Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), +2 from belt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Feats: Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html).
Skills: Craft: Shiv 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), Perform: riddles 2+ (BRITF), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html)), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html)), Perform: kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), Ride 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Spellcraft 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0324.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html).
Abilities: Bard class abilities, charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), dramatic instincts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html).
Items: Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), dice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html), Boots of Elvenkind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), yoyo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), toothbrush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), equipment lists (GYG), Belt of Charisma +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), treasure chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), drawing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), The Stick the Order was named after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html), letter, Chaos Sabre (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html), Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html); no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html). Elan still has his old equipment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8484548&postcount=12) (forum).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html), Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0949.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Lesser Confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html); no Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), nor Break Enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).

:haley: Haley Starshine aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html)
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), Human female Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18180388&postcount=1118)).
Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html), but can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)).
Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 12+ (received bonus languages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html)).
Cha 12-19 (with any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html); and with maxed out Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), for Hide to be her best skill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
Age: About 25 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12254291&postcount=24) (forum; was 24 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and that was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) over a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html) year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)).
Feats: Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html).
Skills: Appraise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html), Bluff 18+ (maxed out) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html), Knowledge: Planes 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Knowledge: Religion low (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15175785&postcount=48), Open Lock 15, Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Search (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html) not maxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), Sense Motive 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Spellcraft 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0108.html), Use Magic Device 7+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), Use Rope 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat (based on feat count for her level).
Items: Two gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), towel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), hair dryer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), +5 Air Freshener of Pineness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), a lot of clothes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), +5 Icy Burst Longbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), bag of copper pieces (SSDT), magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11095086&postcount=2) (forum), trowel, metal detector (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), 4+ quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) including silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), three potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) (since Belkar took one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)), thief's tools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), Z's wands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), Wand of Obscuring Mist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html), and four others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), adamantine dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html).

:vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11664984#post11664984) (forum), Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) ambiguously gendered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html) Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html): Evoker (DCF) 16 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), and strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html)).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html); also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 24 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html), and without any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)).
Age: 131+ (WXP).
Feats: Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Extend Spell (SSDT), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat); no Silent Spell (forum), nor Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Skills: Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Craft: Alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html), Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), Knowledge: Engineering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), Knowledge: Religion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) not high (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15175785), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), Speak Language: Elven (racial), raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html), not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html), Use Magic Device 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).
Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), share spells with familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686399&postcount=36) (forum; also by elimination).
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) with a base int of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) at level 11), doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html), Ring of Wizardry III or IV (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), many scrolls and spellbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html), Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), twelve more books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), defensive potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html), Tarquin's whip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html).
Spells: Arcane Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), Bugsby's Clenched Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Bugsby's Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Dimensional Lock (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Greater Invisibility (SSDT), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Heroism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Locate Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Overland Flight usable on others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Passwall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html), Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html), Power Word Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection from Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html), Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Shadow Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19156714&postcount=6) (to cast Evan's Tentacles, forum), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Stone to Flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Summon Plot Hole (SWMU), True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), Wall of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html), Wall of Force (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html), unspecified polymorph spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html), unspecified sonic spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png Blackwing (Common name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html))
Raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) male, familiar.
Str 1 (racial).
Dex 15 (racial).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 13 (familiar).
Wis 14 (racial).
Cha 6 (racial).
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
Abilities: Racial abilities; familiar abilities.
Items: Bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html).

[Kurald Galain]

Team Evil

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/PimpedXykon.png Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13027771&postcount=5) (forum) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Human male lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), Sorcerer 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th level spells in one combat, SOD).
Age: 111+ (WXP).
Feats: Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Still Spell or Sudden Still (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), unspecified craft feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Concentration (required to cast while grappled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
Items: Soul gem (SOD), Ring of Positive Plane Protection (SOD), Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html), Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), Dorukan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), unspecified item that gives fire immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), bunch of scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Spells: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), Epic Mage Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Greater Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), unspecified planar travel spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), unspecified summoning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), unspecified wall-breaking spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (required to cast 9th level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)).
Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) four times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)).
Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
Feats: Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).
Skills: Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), Speak Language: Goblin (racial), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html); no Draconic (NCPB).
Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html), Command Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html)) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
Items: Black armor (SOD), The Crimson Mantle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html), backup unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), eye patch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), Xykon's Phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html), Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Ring of protection from level drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)
Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Human female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html): Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum) 3+ / Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+, and two more levels of Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast Create Undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) as a wizard).
Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) as a cleric).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html).
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)).
Abilities: Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), barred school (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), item that boosts caster level (to teleport six wights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html)), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html)), Xykon plushie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html).
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus wizard spells Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fire Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Mind Fog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910)).

:mitd: Monster In The Darkness
Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800) for details.



The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html))
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human male, Fighter / Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 2+ (required for Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html)) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)); total level 15 (Hit by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Str 10-11 (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955), forum).
Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
Con same as Elan.
Int 13+ (required for Combat Expertise).
Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)).
Age: 22+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)).
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), business cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), wand of Enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html), Elixirs of Negative Energy Protection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html).
Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).

http://i.imgur.com/pY0IKhR.png Hilgya Firehelm
Non-lawful (worships the god of chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)) Evil (DCF), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) 7+ (required to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 14+ (required to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)).
Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html), Fire domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html).
Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html), holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html), Gnome male, Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html) 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Feats: Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).
Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion: hawk "Kitty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html) (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Pompey.png Pompey
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57), Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)).
Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)).
Age: 44+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Feats: Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html).
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster I (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Summon Monster II, five unspecified touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html).

:sabine: Sabine
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 3+ (at least as high as her personal rival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)).
Str 16+ (can carry Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html)).
Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Int 9+ (higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), lower than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883778&postcount=198), forum).
Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 2000+ (NCPB).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, immune to fatigue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html).
Items: Cellphone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

:thog: Thog
Non-lawful (required for rage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) / Barbarian 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) (required to have 3 attacks a round).
Str 22+ (to break down an iron door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) while raging).
Int <8 (racial, dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)).
Wis <10 (abysmal will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 17+ (WXP).
Feats: Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html]Improved Bull Rush[/url], http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html).
Skills: Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html).
Abilities: Dungeoncrasher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11982830)), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yikyik.png Yikyik (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html))
Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html)).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Feats: Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html), Track (ranger bonus feat).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yokyok.png Yokyok (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html))
Kobold male.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
Items: Rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yukyuk2.png Yukyuk (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html))
Kobold male, Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) 4+ (required for an animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)) / Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Abilities: Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion: riding dog "Sir Scraggly" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).
Feats: Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
Items: Two Crossbows of Quick Loading (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html))
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) 15 (deafened by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html)).
Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Feats: Lightning Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=822237)), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html).
Abilities: Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, +4 from feats and an item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)); drow racial abilities; barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), Break Enchantment: short version (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly: 3.0 version (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Locate Object (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html), Magic Circle Against Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Phantasmal Killer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Planar Binding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), Protection from Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Vitriolic Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), unspecified lightning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html).

[Kurald Galain]

The Sapphire Guard

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) 11-12 (three attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), but was lower level than Roy during the battle at Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and hasn't leveled up since (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)).
Age: 26+ (WXP).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silvered katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) 12+ (higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
Int 10+ (good, not dumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)).
Age: 29+ (three years older than Hinjo, DSTP).
Feats: Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html).
Items: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); ring of waterbreathing (DSTP).

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html))
Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 10-14 (three main-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), and three smites per day, forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).
Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).
Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html)).
Age: 28+ (WXP).
Feats: Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)), Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Quick Draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html), Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
Skills: Knowledge: the Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html), Knowledge: What The Hell She's Talking About 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), Spellcraft 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html), Survival 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html).
Abilities: Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).
Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.png O-Chul
Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter / Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) 3+ (has Aura of Courage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)).
Con ~25 (WXP).
Cha <10 (dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)).
Age: 29+ (fighter for twelve years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)).
Skills: Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Diplomacy 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19163226&postcount=74) (forum), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Shojo.png Shojo (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html))
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), Human male, Aristocrat 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html).
Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
Age: 72+ (WXP).
Feats: Improved Paranoia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), Perform (puppetry) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html).



The Vector Legion

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Tarquin
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), Human male, level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)).
Str 16+ (can carry Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)).
Dex, Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Int, Wis, Cha ~11 (no evidence, age).
Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)).
Feats: Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Ride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html).
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html).
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), helmet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), two Rings of Regeneration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), Ring of True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Glamered Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html), mask that says "Nope" on it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html), Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html).

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Soul-Muncher_zps9mnpfpuq.png Soul Muncher
Intelligent axe.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Jacinda_zps7hwo2mqt.png Jacinda
Catfolk female.
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Kilkil.png Kilkil
Lawful Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Winged Kobold male, level 6-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Items: Glasses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities, Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).

http://i.imgur.com/R7Cl7cQ.png Laurin Shattersmith
Evil (forum), Human female, Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) 13+ (to be level drained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html) and still manifest Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html)).
Str, Dex, Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
Int 16+ (required to manifest Disintegrate).
Wis, Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
Age: 58+ (forum).
Items: Headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), two Ioun Stones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).
Powers: Body Adjustment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Clairvoyant Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html), Control Body (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), Dispel Psionics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Energy Adaptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), Mental Disruption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Mind Probe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html), Telekinetic Force (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Wormhole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), unspecified attack power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png Malack (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)), pseudonym (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled&p=17331234&viewfull=1#post17331234) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56) (forum), Lizardfolk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) male vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html), Cleric of Nergal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) 12 (required for Craft Staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), but no higher spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56), forum).
Str ~18 (no evidence, racial).
Con n/a (undead).
Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Int ~13 (no evidence, racial, age).
Wis 20+ (from spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15716359&postcount=751), forum).
Cha ~17 (no evidence, racial, age).
Age: 200+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html).
Feats: Craft Staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html); Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Vampire abilities, Death and Destruction domains (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715919&postcount=61) (forum).
Items: Holy Symbol.
Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Protection from Daylight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html).

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Miron_zpsolsb8sfv.png Miron Shewdanker
Evil (forum), Human male, Wizard 15+ or Sorcerer 16+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)).
Str, Dex ~9 (no evidence, age).
Con 6+ (forum).
Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Int or Cha 18+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), depending on his class).
Age: 38+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16361374&postcount=218) (forum).
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html), Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), unspecified defensive spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html).

http://i.imgur.com/Uqj3cnA.png ???
We don't seem to know anything yet about the sixth member of the Vector Legion.

[Kurald Galain]

The Order of the Scribble

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SoonKim.png Soon Kim (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html))
Lawful Good, Human male Sacred Watcher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) 21+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
Con n/a (Deathless).
Cha ~14 (no evidence, Sacred Watcher).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html), Paladin class abilities, Sacred Watcher abilities, Deathless abilities.
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
Items: Enchanted Armor, Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd40/rtg0922/OotSSmilies/Dorukan.png Dorukan (deceased, SOD)
Neutral Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Human male, Wizard 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Str/Dex/Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int 19+ (required to cast Gate, SOD).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (both required for Epic Spellcasting).
Spells: Arcane Half of the Mystic Gate ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Gate (SOD), Meteor Swarm (SOD), Monster Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), Prismatic Spray (SOD), Pure Heart Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Seal Rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Scrying (SOD), Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell (SOD), unspecified summoning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u93/Reed_Copperstrand/Girard_new.png Girard Draketooth (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html))
Chaotic Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19163226&postcount=74) (forum), Black dragon-blooded human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) male, Ranger 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) / Sorcerer 19+ (low epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331), forum).
Cha 19+ (required to cast Microcosm).
Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), no Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331) (forum).
Spells: Microcosm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html), Recorded Message Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), unspecified illusion spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

http://i.imgur.com/RrO0EeD.gif Kraagor (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))
Non-lawful, Dwarf male, Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
Items: Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Lirian.png Lirian (deceased, SOD)
Neutral Good (forum), Elf female, Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) 21+ (Low Epic, forum).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 19+ (required to cast Shapechange, SOD).
Skills: Speak Language: Druidic (class) and Elven (racial).
Spells: Standard druid list, plus Divine Half of the Mystic Gate ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Guardian Virus (SOD).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/serini-1.png Serini Toormuck
Halfling female, Rogue 21+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Str ~5 (no evidence, racial, age).
Dex ~9 (no evidence, racial, age).
Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
Int/Wis/Cha ~12 (No evidence, age).
Items: Shortbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).



Family and other characters

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)).
Str 12+ (required to pull the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html)).
Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) in a day).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), cast sorcerer spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), shoot lightning out of her fingers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html) (all racial abilities).
Skills: Profession: Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0269.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Items: Cell phone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 'feeblemind causing' blue dress (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html), black eyeliner pencil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html).
Spells: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), no necromancy spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Eugene.png Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html), Wizard: Illusionist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
Con n/a (undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)).
Age: 81+ (WXP).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Birth Control Spell (SOD), Conjure Chair (OOPC), Detect Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html), Summon Boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0525.html), Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/IanGladiator.png Ian Starshine, aka Red (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)
Chaotic Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Human male, Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html).
Str, Con ~7 (No evidence, age)
Int, Wis, Cha ~12 (No evidence, age).
Age: 60+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html), Knowledge (Local) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html), Not Dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html), Open Lock (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
Items: Signed amnesty papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html), Elan's plan to take down Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html), Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), Human female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html).
Int 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll).
Age: 17+ (five years younger than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Spells: Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Mask Scent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Samantha.png Samantha (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html))
Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)).
Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), but has no bonus spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html) at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Age: 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).
Feats: Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), no Silent Spell, nor Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Spells: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html).

http://i.imgur.com/d8vQ5uT.png Qarr
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), Imp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) male, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), and to get only two Scorching Rays (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html)).
Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
Int 12+ (based on Zz'dtri's level).
Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html)).
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), suggestion, commune, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), darkvision, fast healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), plane shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), summon devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) (all racial abilities).
Spells: Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), Extraplanar Phone Connection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), Lesser Telepathic Bond (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html).

[Kurald Galain]

Happy new year all, and best wishes for 1185!

I would like to start the new year with a new thread, because certain sections of this thread haven't been updated in a long time. As we have seen, my colleague RMS Oceanic hasn't posted for some time, although he has told me that he intends to return in the future. In the meantime, I would like to keep the thread updated in his absence. As Rich has repeatedly stated that he is focusing more on characterization and less on rules minutiae, the workload should be easily manageable for one person.

Now I haven't kept a log of changes suggested in all previous posts; I'll read back on thread twelve in the upcoming weeks, but feel free to post again about anything you believe should be added or modified. The main point of contention has been Tarquin, so I have started by trimming his statblock; of course, items from his statblock may be placed back as consensus develops.

So with no further ado, I present thread thirteen!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm glad we have a new thread; maybe now we can finally put some of those old debates to rest. Some of the pictures need to be updated, for some reason they aren't displaying properly. Are we going to take this opportunity to add any new characters to the list?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm glad we have a new thread; maybe now we can finally put some of those old debates to rest. Some of the pictures need to be updated, for some reason they aren't displaying properly. Are we going to take this opportunity to add any new characters to the list?

(1) apparently the account that hosted them has disappeared; does anyone have a new URL?
(2) I'd be happy to discuss that, who did you have in mind?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

(1) apparently the account that hosted them has disappeared; does anyone have a new URL?
(2) I'd be happy to discuss that, who did you have in mind?

I know we had a recent request to add Bandana. I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to add the Thieves Guild in, as they have appeared again.

[ti'esar]

I love the title.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MitD thread link should probably be updated to this one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Emanick]

I think adding Bandana at this point may be a bit premature. As of now, there are quite a few other characters (Daigo, for instance) who have considerably more appearances but no stats listed here.

In general, unless characters belong to a major established group, I tend to be against adding them unless they so many appearances that not including them would be awkward, or unless they have a ton of information we can list about them. The Thieves' Guild doesn't quite make the cut for me, though others may differ with me on that point.

[Codyage]

Just to bring this point I proposed in the last thread.

I believe I have sufficient enough evidence to show that O-Chul is 16+. Apologies if it has been stated before, but based on this scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) he does 4 attacks in a row before Xykon attacks him with the lightning, but after his meteor swarm. This shows evidence of him being 16+, since Fighters and Paladins share the same Attack Bonus each level, and the earliest he could get 4 attacks would be level 16.

Unless I am forgetting rules with a two handed/improvised weapon for multiple attacks, it seems the only way he could do this was if he was 16+. since the two panels consists of 4 different attacks.

[Steven]

Could be. Could also be:
1. drop holy symbol, charge goblin, get fireballed by X
2. move back to holysymbol and make one attack, X does something off panel
3. Full attack, X lightning bolts.

Or not.

edit: infact, as it's a Maximized lightning bolt it would take X a full round to cast it which I think backs up the idea that it's two rounds. But my Rules-fu is weak so I'm sure it could be otherwise.

[Kurald Galain]

Updated MITD link.

Fair point about O-Chul; he was lower level than Miko during the battle of Azure City, but given his treatment by Team Evil he's had the opportunity to earn plenty XP. Any other thoughts on that?

[Codyage]

Could be. Could also be:
1. drop holy symbol, charge goblin, get fireballed by X
2. move back to holysymbol and make one attack, X does something off panel
3. Full attack, X lightning bolts.

Or not.

edit: infact, as it's a Maximized lightning bolt it would take X a full round to cast it which I think backs up the idea that it's two rounds. But my Rules-fu is weak so I'm sure it could be otherwise.

I considered something similar.

Turn 1
O-Chul drops the phylactery as a free action and attacks Jirix, without leaving his square. As a free action Jirix calls Xykon before passing.
Xykon's turn, he drops V as a free action, or in this case may disengage out of grapple, and then Meteor Swarm's O-Chul. We see the meteor swarm hit O-Chul on panel 4.
V's turn, V casts invisibility. Either this is done while falling, or as V is on the ground, the spell starting while falling for artistic effect. Regardless, this is irrelevant.

Turn 2
We see O-Chul start his turn next to the phylactery. We can see in the previous fight with Jirix, that O-Chul doesn't leave that spot. O-chul does a full attack on the phylactery for four hits, and is then Maximized Lightning Bolt by Xykon.

Even if we assume it takes Xykon a full round to get to O-Chul after the first hit, which would be foolish on Xykon's part as that is a room for another spell. (Seeing as he attempted to cast another Meteor Swarm on V and O-Chul before they get teleported later, he does have the spells to attack.) O-Chul still has 3 attacks for a full round attack. Since he starts next to the Phylactery, that would be 6 attacks to attempt to get off on it.

We see Xykon move closer to O-Chul, and do the attack in the same round. Now either Xykon has the Quickened Spell feat for this to work, a rod, or he has the ACF from PHB II Metamagic Specialist, which could allow him to cast it for free, and still move. (Or he has some other way of doing the Lightning Bolt as a Standard Action.)

While checking, Quickened Maximized Lightning Bolt would count as a 10th level spell slot for Xykon along with the fact he never shouted Quicken with the spell, and a Rod would count as a Full Round Action, and provoke an AoO from O-Chul. This leaves me to believe that Xykon may have that ACF, since he moved and casted it in the same round.

But lets say for the benefit of the doubt, Xykon just used the regular method of the Maximize Feat and did it in a full round action. Since we know the distance between O-Chul and where V was isn't to far away, that means Xykon would have to spend a turn floating in the air doing nothing to do the charge, while O-Chul beat on his phylactery, and then finally be able to get close and attack.

Viewing the one round it would take Xykon to charge the spell, O-Chul could get off six full hits. Yet the only ones we do see are four.

Without Xykon having a way to quicken a spell to be able to move and attack in the same round, O-Chul would have had two full attacks worth of damage, for six different attacks. Since we see he only gets four attacks off, that means he either was doing a single full attack, or he decided two not use two of the attacks for any reason in each round. (But seriously, this is O-Chul, he has no reason to NOT use his other two attacks if he had them. He has been rushing at Xykon, and Redcloak constantly, he would most likely use all of the attacks he was capable of.)

In any case, to summarize.

Either Xykon has a way to quicken his spells, and O-Chul is level 16+, or Xykon decided to spend a round not casting spells and watching O-Chul hit his phylactery, while O-Chul similarly decided to stand around and not hit Xykon's Phylactery for two of his attacks, and was watching him charge his spell.


Edit:Before anyone else mentions the idea of Xykon moved on his turn when he casted Meteor Swarm. That would mean Xykon was standing next to O-Chul, and waiting an entire round within attack range of him, not doing anything. (Also the fact that we see Xykon's cape blowing on the turn he attacks, does imply he was moving that very same turn.)

[littlebum2002]

While checking, Quickened Maximized Lightning Bolt would count as a 10th level spell slot for Xykon along with the fact he never shouted Quicken with the spell, and a Rod would count as a Full Round Action, and provoke an AoO from O-Chul. This leaves me to believe that Xykon may have that ACF, since he moved and casted it in the same round.


Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.

[Peelee]

Updated MITD link.

Fair point about O-Chul; he was lower level than Miko during the battle of Azure City, but given his treatment by Team Evil he's had the opportunity to earn plenty XP. Any other thoughts on that?
Would he? Do Saiyan rules apply?

Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.
Which is complete hooey, if you ask me.

[Codyage]

Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.

Then doesn't that mean he has to be using the ACF to be able to cast his metamagic spell as a standard action, so he can still move in the same round?

[littlebum2002]

Round 1: O-Chul kills Jirik, Xykon is fighting V.
Round 2: Xykon attacks O-Chul, O-Chul attacks soul-hidey-place, Xykon moves.
Round 3: Xykon attacks O-Chul.

I think "O-Chul has 4 attacks per level" is more plausible than "Xykon has the ACF", but that's all a matter of opinion.

[Kornaki]

Going to the strip before, O'Chul does a smite evil, a disarm, and a third attack against Redcloak, while Redcloak casts Word of Recall. How does that work? It looks like O'Chul has three attacks, but Word of Recall is a standard action. This means either Redcloak consistently prepares to cast word of recall if he's about to be killed when he isn't taking actions on his turn (this still has issues with the disintegrate that was previously cast in that comic)), or the last attack is after the word of recall is cast (on Redcloak's turn he prepares to cast word of recall if he's being attacked, then casts it.) So at the start of the new strip, O'Chul has already used one attack from his turn.

He then uses a second one to squash Jirix, and a third one attempting to hit the phylactery once. Xykon's meteor swarm is some sort of prepared action, since he's just been sitting there gloating over V (and his mention "I'm in the middle of something" suggests he's not acting in the normal flow of the turn? Or Xykon meteor swarms and moves for his turn after O'Chul does his three attacks, but to make it more cinematic the actions are woven together). O'Chul then gets a full round of three attacks before Xykon's maximized lightning bolt.

It doesn't quite work, but it seems to flow as well as anything else.

[illyahr]

We have to remember that what is optimal isn't always what is used. That being said, I agree that O-Chul is 16+ for the reasons Codyage stated.

[littlebum2002]

Going to the strip before, O'Chul does a smite evil, a disarm, and a third attack against Redcloak, while Redcloak casts Word of Recall. How does that work? It looks like O'Chul has three attacks, but Word of Recall is a standard action. This means either Redcloak consistently prepares to cast word of recall if he's about to be killed when he isn't taking actions on his turn (this still has issues with the disintegrate that was previously cast in that comic)), or the last attack is after the word of recall is cast (on Redcloak's turn he prepares to cast word of recall if he's being attacked, then casts it.) So at the start of the new strip, O'Chul has already used one attack from his turn.

He then uses a second one to squash Jirix, and a third one attempting to hit the phylactery once. Xykon's meteor swarm is some sort of prepared action, since he's just been sitting there gloating over V (and his mention "I'm in the middle of something" suggests he's not acting in the normal flow of the turn? Or Xykon meteor swarms and moves for his turn after O'Chul does his three attacks, but to make it more cinematic the actions are woven together). O'Chul then gets a full round of three attacks before Xykon's maximized lightning bolt.

It doesn't quite work, but it seems to flow as well as anything else.

Assuming O-Chul took more than a 5' step here, which he clearly did, he is unable to make more than 1 attack in a round.

Round 1: O-Chul runs, Redcloak casts Disintegrate, O-Chul uses Smite Evil

Round 2: Redcloak has the initiative, but either
delays because he is obviously very distracted (not something you would do in a D&D game, but something that would happen in real life, the shock from losing an eye might prevent you from thinking clearly long enough for your opponent to act)
or
Readies an Action to cast Word of Recall if O-Chul decides to attack him instead of the soul-hidey-place

[Kornaki]

Assuming O-Chul took more than a 5' step here, which he clearly did, he is unable to make more than 1 attack in a round.

Round 1: O-Chul runs, Redcloak casts Disintegrate, O-Chul uses Smite Evil

Round 2: Redcloak has the initiative, but either
delays because he is obviously very distracted (not something you would do in a D&D game, but something that would happen in real life, the shock from losing an eye might prevent you from thinking clearly long enough for your opponent to act)
or
Readies an Action to cast Word of Recall if O-Chul decides to attack him instead of the soul-hidey-place

I don't like this suggested order of operations because it suggests that Redcloak's next turn takes place before he loses his holy symbol, and all he does is prepare to cast word of recall. Possible, but that seems unlikely. Even more damning, in my opinion, is that O'Chul looks at the phylactery, says "No more lich then" when he has two attacks left (and one after hitting Jirix), and proceeds to wait until next turn to try to destroy it. I know that characters aren't always going to act optimally, but if a character is able to attack, says "I'm going to attack this object", and then proceeds not to attack it, that stretches credulity. I think we have to take O'Chul's word on it that if he had an extra attack (after attacking Jirix), that he would use it.

Another issue RAW is that picking up the phylactery in the previous strip is a move action, which throws all the analysis out the window.

[Codyage]

I don't like this suggested order of operations because it suggests that Redcloak's next turn takes place before he loses his holy symbol, and all he does is prepare to cast word of recall. Possible, but that seems unlikely. Even more damning, in my opinion, is that O'Chul looks at the phylactery, says "No more lich then" when he has two attacks left (and one after hitting Jirix), and proceeds to wait until next turn to try to destroy it. I know that characters aren't always going to act optimally, but if a character is able to attack, says "I'm going to attack this object", and then proceeds not to attack it, that stretches credulity. I think we have to take O'Chul's word on it that if he had an extra attack (after attacking Jirix), that he would use it.

Another issue RAW is that picking up the phylactery in the previous strip is a move action, which throws all the analysis out the window.

The fact that V, and Xykon both get to cast a spell, implies that the round has passed, and it has come back to O-Chul's turn, rendering the Redcloak and Jirix fights unimportant. Even if someone were to believe O-chul was using an extra attack left over from the Jirix skirmish, that implies V and Xykon both had readied actions go off.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.

I thought there is a build option that substitutes the sorcerer's familiar for the ability to cast quickened spells?

If there isn't, can someone remind me what options are available in exchange for the familiar, which Xykon clearly doesn't have?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[Codyage]

I thought there is a build option that substitutes the sorcerer's familiar for the ability to cast quickened spells?

If there isn't, can someone remind me what options are available in exchange for the familiar, which Xykon clearly doesn't have?

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

There is. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but it's called metamagic specialist from players handbook II. The get 3+Int a day, the ability to cast a metamagic spell as a standard action for the cost of a familiar if I remember correctly.

[137beth]

Ooh, I like the new title.

[Kornaki]

Assuming O-Chul took more than a 5' step here, which he clearly did, he is unable to make more than 1 attack in a round.


I think O-Chul ran, ended his turn near Redcloak, got zapped, then 5 foot stepped and full attacked.

Given Xykon's arrogance about O-Chul's chances, why can't that be two rounds of attacks? The whole two strip fight looks like:

O-chul moves to be near Redcloak. Redcloak disintegrates, O-Chul smites and disarms. Redcloak prepares word of recall. O-Chul attacks Redcloak, then attacks Jirix (picking up amulet in the middle is a bit of a fudge here). V and X cast their spells, O-Chul attacks, Xykon spends his round casting maximized lightning bolt so O-Chul attacks again.

[Chronos]

Xykon has definitely cast quickened spells somewhere, and so he has some means of doing it. The reason we haven't listed his means for doing so is that we don't know how he's doing it, and there are at least three possibilities: He has the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage, or he has the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature from PHB2 (replaces familiar), or he has the Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane. Of those, Complete Arcane is the only book that we otherwise know is in play, but it's quite out of character for Xykon, and there's no solid evidence to decide between the other two.

To go back to Tarquin's intelligent axe, I believe that it ought to count as a member of the Vector Legion, and hence be listed. The fact that Tarquin no longer has it, and it might be destroyed, is immaterial: We also have listings for other destroyed members of the Legion.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Xykon has definitely cast quickened spells somewhere...

I am not sure that is true.

[Codyage]

I think O-Chul ran, ended his turn near Redcloak, got zapped, then 5 foot stepped and full attacked.

Given Xykon's arrogance about O-Chul's chances, why can't that be two rounds of attacks? The whole two strip fight looks like:

O-chul moves to be near Redcloak. Redcloak disintegrates, O-Chul smites and disarms. Redcloak prepares word of recall. O-Chul attacks Redcloak, then attacks Jirix (picking up amulet in the middle is a bit of a fudge here). V and X cast their spells, O-Chul attacks, Xykon spends his round casting maximized lightning bolt so O-Chul attacks again.

The reason why I am not claiming that is two rounds, is because right now O-Chul gets 3 attacks in a full attack. If Xykon waited that extra round, that would have been 6 attacks O-Chul gets off, but instead we see 4.

In the one round scenario, O-Chul gets off a full attack, and Xykon somehow moves and casts a metamagic spell.

[Kurald Galain]

Tarquin threw the axe at Belkar... did Belkar perhaps pick it up? Is this mentioned anywhere?

[Kurald Galain]

Removed a few smilies that were linked to a 404 page.

I concur that as an intelligent item, Soul Muncher should be listed. Also, as a named member of the Vector Legion, Jacinda should be listed. Does the BRITF book perhaps tell us anything about them?

[Kornaki]

The reason why I am not claiming that is two rounds, is because right now O-Chul gets 3 attacks in a full attack. If Xykon waited that extra round, that would have been 6 attacks O-Chul gets off, but instead we see 4.


Where have we seen O-Chul get three attacks?

[Codyage]

Where have we seen O-Chul get three attacks?

He is currently a 12+ Fighter/Paladin. According to SRD Fighters and paladins have +1 BAB.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

At levels 11-15 they get 3 attacks when making a full attack.

[Kornaki]

He is currently a 12+ Fighter/Paladin. According to SRD Fighters and paladins have +1 BAB.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

At levels 11-15 they get 3 attacks when making a full attack.

The evidence that he's 12+ comes after the scene with Xykon though.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, according to an online calculator I found (accuracy may vary), a level 10 character defeating a level 16 character (Redcloak at the time?) is enough XP to go from freshly minted level 10 to level 12. I vaguely recall a rule about only being able to level once at a time though.

[iyaerP]

The evidence that he's 12+ comes after the scene with Xykon though.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, according to an online calculator I found (accuracy may vary), a level 10 character defeating a level 16 character (Redcloak at the time?) is enough XP to go from freshly minted level 10 to level 12. I vaguely recall a rule about only being able to level once at a time though.

Correct. If you would level twice, you instead level once and are 1xp below the next level you would have gained instead.

[Codyage]

Removed a few smilies that were linked to a 404 page.

I concur that as an intelligent item, Soul Muncher should be listed. Also, as a named member of the Vector Legion, Jacinda should be listed. Does the BRITF book perhaps tell us anything about them?

As far as I remember we don't get any new insight on whom people are, or anything like that.


Tarquin threw the axe at Belkar... did Belkar perhaps pick it up? Is this mentioned anywhere?

I don't have the book in front of me, but the axe gave temporary negative levels to Elan and Roy when they went to pick it up, and it beat Belkar in an ego score contest and took him over. Roy took it from Belkar, fought against it, and they ended up throwing it down in a pit trap similar to what V was in, so Tarquin couldn't get it back.


The evidence that he's 12+ comes after the scene with Xykon though.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, according to an online calculator I found (accuracy may vary), a level 10 character defeating a level 16 character (Redcloak at the time?) is enough XP to go from freshly minted level 10 to level 12. I vaguely recall a rule about only being able to level once at a time though.

We only have him listed that way due to Hinjo's comment and hard to find evidence for O-Chul. That doesn't mean O-Chul ISN'T level 16, all it means is that he is higher than Hinjo. With that being said, the scene with O-Chul giving those attacks to the Phylactery, does mean he has at minimum 3 attacks. But that fourth attack is the question for debate right now.

With O-Chul the paladin who is well known for rushing straight into combat and attacking as much as he can, as long as other innocent lives aren't at risk, it seems incredibly out of character for him to have two remaining attacks be ignored on the item he needs to beat Xykon if the 2 round scenario is true.

Is their any way for O-Chul to get that fourth attack on the Phylactery, without him being 16+, and a 2nd round being involved? Because right now the 16+ theory works, if Xykon has a way to quicken spells, and and the two round theory works, if we choose to believe O-Chul didn't use two of his attacks.

[Loreweaver15]

Here's another question: How strong does Crystal have to be to be tossing people around like that?

[Kornaki]

With that being said, the scene with O-Chul giving those attacks to the Phylactery, does mean he has at minimum 3 attacks. But that fourth attack is the question for debate right now.

No, I made an argument that O-Chul might only have two attacks per turn during that scene, and it has not been responded to. You claimed there was evidence he has at least three, but the only evidence exists after the scene in question. My claim is he could have been level 10 during the fight with Xykon/Redcloak, and leveled up afterwards.



With O-Chul the paladin who is well known for rushing straight into combat and attacking as much as he can, as long as other innocent lives aren't at risk, it seems incredibly out of character for him to have two remaining attacks be ignored on the item he needs to beat Xykon if the 2 round scenario is true.

I made a similar argument for why he doesn't have four attacks, because he would have been giving up attacks earlier in the strip.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here's another question: How strong does Crystal have to be to be tossing people around like that?

At least as much as a cat animal companion with a belt of giant strength (the actual math is left as an exercise for the readers that actually know strength of animal companions). It doesn't seem to take much strength in OotS to send someone flying.

Grey Wolf

[Quartz]

Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.

There is a way: take the Quicken Spell feat, then take the Automatic Quicken Spell Epic feat three times so 9th level spells are affected. Since Xykon is known to have the Epic Spellcasting feat, he would need to be at least 26th level to have the four Epic feats, taking Epic character feats at levels 21 and 24, and Epic class feats at 23rd and 26th.

[Peelee]

There is a way: take the Quicken Spell feat, then take the Automatic Quicken Spell Epic feat three times so 9th level spells are affected. Since Xykon is known to have the Epic Spellcasting feat, he would need to be at least 26th level to have the four Epic feats, taking Epic character feats at levels 21 and 24, and Epic class feats at 23rd and 26th.

He could do it easier by being a Metamagic Specialist sorcerer variant, which sacrifices the familiar class feature for casting metamagic without an increased casting time. Better than burning four feats, for sure. And no evidence either way.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Xykon has never cast a Quickened spell, though.

[Kornaki]

I'm inclined to believe there is at least some cost to quickening a spell for Xykon, so he doesn't do it very often (assuming he didn't just hard cast the maximized spell on a full round).

[littlebum2002]

Xykon has never cast a Quickened spell, though.

This. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure every time someone has cast a Quickened spell they have vocalized it. I welcome being proven wrong though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He could do it easier by being a Metamagic Specialist sorcerer variant, which sacrifices the familiar class feature for casting metamagic without an increased casting time. Better than burning four feats, for sure. And no evidence either way.

There is circumstantial evidence that he has the Metamagic Specialist. First and most obvious is that he does not have a familiar. Yes, I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - thus circumstantial. But "Power = Power" Xykon is not one to leave a character bonus behind when it might give him an edge, so I find it unlikely that he would have forgotten he has a familiar; instead, he must have traded it in for something, and Metamagic Specialist fits (I don't know what other alternative exchanges exist).

The other circumstantial evidence is, I believe, the Maximized Energy Drain. I'm not sure of the details, but isn't there an issue with how this spell was cast that was explainable by the MM Specialist? At least, I can't imagine were else I would've heard of the concept.

Grey Wolf

[Steven]

There is circumstantial evidence that he has the Metamagic Specialist. First and most obvious is that he does not have a familiar. Yes, I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - thus circumstantial. But "Power = Power" Xykon is not one to leave a character bonus behind when it might give him an edge....

Just a nit-pick: He said he only realized that Power = Power AFTER he died rather than before when he would have had to make that choice. Assuming it is a choice a sorcerer makes rather than just being something that some have built in.

[Quartz]

Xykon has never cast a Quickened spell, though.

If he had the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feats, all his spells would automatically be quickened and we'd be none the wiser.

[Quartz]

He could do it easier by being a Metamagic Specialist sorcerer variant, which sacrifices the familiar class feature for casting metamagic without an increased casting time.

On the other hand, it's an OoTS convention that when a caster applies metamagic to a spell that we read what that metamagic is, and as noted previously, we've never seen Xykon cast a spell which he says is Quickened, though we have seen him announce other metamagics (e.g. Maximised in 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)). If you look at his fight with Dorukan in SoD he casts two Energy Drains to Dorukan's one (unnamed) spell in panels 2-4 of p106, so one Energy Drain must be Quickened. It's also probable he casts three Energy Drains in one round in panels 4-8, so he's likely got Multispell as well, which would put him at level 27 minimum.

[Timy]

On the other hand, it's an OoTS convention that when a caster applies metamagic to a spell that we read what that metamagic is, and as noted previously, we've never seen Xykon cast a spell which he says is Quickened, though we have seen him announce other metamagics (e.g. Maximised in 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)). If you look at his fight with Dorukan in SoD he casts two Energy Drains to Dorukan's one (unnamed) spell in panels 2-4 of p106, so one Energy Drain must be Quickened. It's also probable he casts three Energy Drains in one round in panels 4-8, so he's likely got Multispell as well, which would put him at level 27 minimum.

I dont have read SoD but I have read ABOUT it and IIRC, his 2 fights against Dorukan and Lirian are about even and they are supposed to be "low epic". A level 27 is hardly "low epic".

And this "multi-spell" has never been used even when really chalenged against Darth V are the Ghost-Paladin.

I guess there could easily be other explanations for he multiple energy drain against Dorukan (for Example Dorukan passing is turn :p)

[Quartz]

I dont have read SoD but I have read ABOUT it and IIRC, his 2 fights against Dorukan and Lirian are about even and they are supposed to be "low epic". A level 27 is hardly "low epic".

Actually, yes, I'd count level 27 as low-epic. For me, 30s would be mid-epic, and 40+ high epic.


And this "multi-spell"

Oh please, it's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell).

[Timy]

OK, no problem on your definitions of "low-epic" or "mid-epic" but what about the fact that we NEVER saw X say "quickened" and except on these few times we are speacking about, we never had any example were he casted 2 spells in the same round (even less more than 2).

And it seems that in those examples, there could be other explanations... On the other hand, we have examples were he was in danger and didn't cast multiple spells in the same round.

Examples : darth V fight and ghost fight.

[littlebum2002]

On the other hand, it's an OoTS convention that when a caster applies metamagic to a spell that we read what that metamagic is, and as noted previously, we've never seen Xykon cast a spell which he says is Quickened, though we have seen him announce other metamagics (e.g. Maximised in 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)). If you look at his fight with Dorukan in SoD he casts two Energy Drains to Dorukan's one (unnamed) spell in panels 2-4 of p106, so one Energy Drain must be Quickened. It's also probable he casts three Energy Drains in one round in panels 4-8, so he's likely got Multispell as well, which would put him at level 27 minimum.

Why would multispell make you Level 27 minimum?

[Peelee]

OK, no problem on your definitions of "low-epic" or "mid-epic" but what about the fact that we NEVER saw X say "quickened" and except on these few times we are speacking about, we never had any example were he casted 2 spells in the same round (even less more than 2).

And it seems that in those examples, there could be other explanations... On the other hand, we have examples were he was in danger and didn't cast multiple spells in the same round.

Examples : darth V fight and ghost fight.

A.) I would hardly count the Darth V fight as Xykon being in significant danger. V got some good shots in, but Xykon had the upper hand the whole battle. The ghost paladins, that one was warranted.

2.) Speaking of, in a single strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Xykon does not say a single spell he casts (they could be Silent Spelled, but why?), and mentions he's running out of spells above fifth level. Quickening a first level spell in this situation would be a bit.... odd, wouldn't you say? And we get a fine example of the standard verbal component being completely ignored.


Why would multispell make you Level 27 minimum?

It's an Epic feat. Which means, if he shot three Energy Drains, he'd need to have picked it up twice. So his feat selection would be Epic Spellcasting at Level 21, Multispell at 24, and Multispell (again) at 27.

[Quartz]

Why would multispell make you Level 27 minimum?

Because of the number of Epic feats required. We know Xykon has the Epic Spellcasting feat. To cast a Quickened 9th level spell requires Automatic Quicken Spell three times, and Multispell is the 5th feat. Xykon will be getting Epic character feats at 21st level, 24th level, and 27th level; and Epic class feats at 22nd and 26th level.

[Quartz]

It's an Epic feat. Which means, if he shot three Energy Drains, he'd need to have picked it up twice. So his feat selection would be Epic Spellcasting at Level 21, Multispell at 24, and Multispell (again) at 27.

Not quite - Multispell only allows you to cast a Quickened spell - but there's nothing stopping Xykon casting two Quickened Energy Drains and one normal, non-Quickened Energy Drain. Only one Multispell feat required.

[Peelee]

Not quite - Multispell only allows you to cast a Quickened spell - but there's nothing stopping Xykon casting two Quickened Energy Drains and one normal, non-Quickened Energy Drain. Only one Multispell feat required.

Aha. Shows what a quick Google and lack of familiarity with Epic rules leads to. Didn't even know about the bonus class feats, and I somehow skimmed over the "quickened" in the feat description.

[hamishspence]

Metamagic-ed 9th level spells require extra spell slots though:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity

unless the character has a way of metamagic-ing without increasing the level of the spell.

So, Maximized Energy Drains (unless he's using a Rod of Maximize Spell or something similar- without it being visible) imply he's taken the Improved Spell Capacity Feat at least 3 times.

[b_jonas]

Metamagic-ed 9th level spells require extra spell slots though:

Yes, and Xykon even knows the rules about arcane metamagic: in srtip #652, he realizes that Vaarsuvius's Quickened Chain Lightning spell requires a level 10 spell slot, because Chain Lightning is level 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), but quickening increases the level by 4.

[Timy]

A.) I would hardly count the Darth V fight as Xykon being in significant danger. V got some good shots in, but Xykon had the upper hand the whole battle.

I choose this one example because he specifically said he used "all means at [his] disposal" and yet, while V casted multiple spell each round, X casted only one.



2.) Speaking of, in a single strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Xykon does not say a single spell he casts (they could be Silent Spelled, but why?),

Yes, there is times where the name of the spells are not said aloud even if there is no silent metamagic involved. But having X NEVER saying quickened is quite off to me...

[Peelee]

I choose this one example because he specifically said he used "all means at [his] disposal" and yet, while V casted multiple spell each round, X casted only one.

I'd hardly call an two Energy Drains, a Superb Dispelling, and a big rock "all the means at his disposal." He's talking about taking advice from others in that fight.

Yes, there is times where the name of the spells are not said aloud even if there is no silent metamagic involved. But having X NEVER saying quickened is quite off to me...
It is to me as well, don't get me wrong. But that such rules can be bent does leave some wiggle room.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Minor: Tarquin's glamered armor is listed as "glamoured armor". The former spelling is archaic, but it's not a typo in the strip.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#glamered

[Kurald Galain]

Fixed.

I note Dorukan's age is listed without a source; do we know where it is mentioned?

Haley's block says she has 200,000 gp, but the comic linked to doesn't seem to explain why. More to the point, with the recent shopping spree she probably doesn't have that amount any more.

[Peelee]

Haley's block says she has 200,000 gp, but the comic linked to doesn't seem to explain why. More to the point, with the recent shopping spree she probably doesn't have that amount any more.

First panel. "I've finally earned enough to buy [my dad's] freedom." Which was previously established as 200,000.

Also, when the airship bill was 200,000+, Bandana said they would need the order to hep with the bill due to the sheer amount. We could assume that at 43,000, the Mechane may have paid its own way. Which would make Haley's cash 200,000 + x - y, where x = spending money + Elan tax (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) and y = wands. With two unknowns, and working against each other at that, we might still assume ~200,000 fairly safely.

[hamishspence]

I'd hardly call an two Energy Drains, a Superb Dispelling, and a big rock "all the means at his disposal." He's talking about taking advice from others in that fight.


Talking of Superb Dispelling - could it be used to ballpark Xykon's level - based on the assumption that Xykon's Spellcraft modifier isn't more than 10 pts less than the DC (as is typical with epic characters?

The standard version's DC 59 - which would suggest Xykon's modifier is unlikely to be less than 49.

[Steven]

I'm no expert but I thought boosting checks to +40 by lvl 10 was reasonably trivial. Assuming he keeps the skill maxed that would account for +49 by skill points alone by level 19. Unless I'm getting my pathfinder skill advancement and 3.5 muddled which is quite likely.

[hamishspence]

In 3rd ed your skill ranks can't be higher than your level +3.

So, a 21st level Xykon could only have 24 ranks in Spellcraft. And it's an Int skill - so the skill bonus he'd add to it would not be very high - Xykon is not a high INT character. (though he would get a +2 synergy bonus for Spellcraft if he has 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), and another +2 once he reaches 25 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)).

Wizards (being INT-based) are much better at boosting Spellcraft.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm no expert but I thought boosting checks to +40 by lvl 10 was reasonably trivial.

That's correct; once you have Craft Wondrous Item you can start by crafting an item that gives a bonus to spellcraft. Even before epic levels those bonuses can get rather big.

[Quartz]

Talking of Superb Dispelling - could it be used to ballpark Xykon's level - based on the assumption that Xykon's Spellcraft modifier isn't more than 10 pts less than the DC (as is typical with epic characters?

The standard version's DC 59 - which would suggest Xykon's modifier is unlikely to be less than 49.


That's correct; once you have Craft Wondrous Item you can start by crafting an item that gives a bonus to spellcraft. Even before epic levels those bonuses can get rather big.

Have we seen Xykon gain such a ring since his body got destroyed in Dorukan's dungeon?

Assuming a required +49:

24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) gives +2 synergy bonus
or 25+ ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) gives +4 synergy bonus at level 22+
Skill Focus gives +3
Epic Skill Focus gives +10.
Page 1 of this thread gives him about Int 15 which gives +2.

Note that Xykon cannot have both Epic Skill Focus and Epic Spellcasting at level 21 but he might not have the +4 synergy bonus at level 22.

So we're looking at bonuses of 17 or 19 to the base skill which means a base skill of 32 or 30 respectively. Taking the lower skill number puts Xykon at level 27+, which seems about right. No magic item required.

Xykon being level 27 also fits with having taken Automatic Quicken Spell 3 times but not Multispell - he'd need to be 29th level for that. However, 29th level allows for an Int modifier of +0. Given that Xykon hasn't ever shown any great intellect, I'd go for the latter.

[Kurald Galain]

Have we seen Xykon gain such a ring since his body got destroyed in Dorukan's dungeon?

It could straightforwardly be in his backup fortress.

On the other hand, have we seen Xykon automatically quickening every single spell he ever cast? Even though he has used the phrase "quickened <spell>" precisely never, and other characters have been using that phrase whenever they're quickening anything?

[hamishspence]

Xykon being level 27 also fits with having taken Automatic Quicken Spell 3 times but not Multispell - he'd need to be 29th level for that. However, 29th level allows for an Int modifier of +0. Given that Xykon hasn't ever shown any great intellect, I'd go for the latter.

If The Giant is using Complete Arcane (where the Warlock we see in the bar fight comes from) then it should be noted that Automatic Quicken Spell was massively nerfed in that - only grants 1 level of automatically quickened spells each time it's taken, not 3.

[Peelee]

What book is the 3-level Auto Quicken from?

[hamishspence]

Epic Handbook (and SRD).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#automaticQuickenSpell

[Quartz]

What book is the 3-level Auto Quicken from?

It's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#automaticQuickenSpell). However, having re-read the feat thanks to your question, I note that it requires 30 ranks in Spellcraft, so Xykon would have had to take Epic Skill Focus before taking Automatic Quicken Spell.

[Steven]

Okay, so we have 24 from skill points, >= +2 from int, +2 from Knowledge arcana, +3 skill focus. = +31

I think we can rule out the other +2 from synergy as he didn't notice the oddity with the ritual.
So if the only way he can boost that high is through ranks then he'd have to be lvl 39

Personally I don't buy that he only has an int of 15 but that's just my personal opinion of the character.

Edit: Oop. Scrap that. With epic skill focus he'd only need to be lvl 29.

[hamishspence]

Skill Focus feats don't increase one's Skill Ranks - only one's modifier. To take Automatic Quicken Spell at all, Xykon would need to have at least 27 character levels (max skill rank is your level, +3).

[Jasdoif]

I can't check books right now, but wouldn't Rapid Metamagic (from Complete Mage, if I recall) be an easier explanation than a pile of epic feats?

[Quartz]

It could straightforwardly be in his backup fortress.

Which he did not have.


On the other hand, have we seen Xykon automatically quickening every single spell he ever cast? Even though he has used the phrase "quickened <spell>" precisely never, and other characters have been using that phrase whenever they're quickening anything?

Indeed, but as I pointed out upthread, if his spell is Automatically Quickened, he doesn't have to deliberately apply the feat - it happens automatically. And he has announced - deliberately applied - other metamagics. And Xykon is a sorcerer, and sorcerers cannot normally use Quicken Spell. And in SoD, we do see him cast Energy Drain at least twice in one round.

So the follow-on question is, do we see Xykon cast two spells in one round elsewhere?

[Quartz]

Skill Focus feats don't increase one's Skill Ranks - only one's modifier. To take Automatic Quicken Spell at all, Xykon would need to have at least 27 character levels (max skill rank is your level, +3).

You're right. Epic Skill Focus only applies its bonus to the check, not the ranks, so Xykon would need to be 30th level to have taken the feat three times (27th, 29th, 30th).

[Quartz]

Which he did not have.

Just to elaborate, we see Xykon and Redcloak and MitD going straight from Dorukan's fortress to the hobgoblin encampments.

[Kurald Galain]

Which he did not have.
Yes, he did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html).


And in SoD, we do see him cast Energy Drain at least twice in one round.
You're assuming that, but that is not a given. It strikes me that you're using the assumption that Xykon is level 28-ish as "proof" that he could cast multiple ninth-level spells per round, whereas you're using the assumption that he was casting two Energy Drains at the same time as "proof" that he must be in the high epic levels. However, that's circular reasoning.

By the way, Quickened magic looks like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html).

[hamishspence]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximize Energy Drain) it does seem to me a bit more likely that he's using Improved Spell Capacity, than that he's using Rods, or those "X Metamagic 3 times per day" feats.

[Quartz]

Yes, he did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html).

No, he thought he did - as that strip shows, it had gone and the hobgoblins had built their encampment on it.


You're assuming that, but that is not a given. It strikes me that you're using the assumption that Xykon is level 28-ish as "proof" that he could cast multiple ninth-level spells per round

No. The question was asked upthread about Xykon quickening spells, and I provided the by-the-SRD way. Which, it turns out, needed a little tweaking.

[Kurald Galain]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells

You mean, twice total over a span of 1200+ strips? :smallbiggrin:

[Quartz]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximize Energy Drain) it does seem to me a bit more likely that he's using Improved Spell Capacity, than that he's using Rods, or those "X Metamagic 3 times per day" feats.

Do you have the strips where he uses those? If that's the case, I happen to agree with you, but he's still going to need 4 Epic feats to cast a Maximised Energy Drain and still have the Epic Spellcasting feat, which puts him at level 26 minimum, 5 Epic feats - level 27 - to cast a Quickened 9th level spell, and given the likelihood of him having Epic Skill Focus so as to cast Superb Dispelling, he'd have to be 29th level, or 27th without the fourth Improved Spell Capacity feat and a +2 Int bonus.

[hamishspence]

Do you have the strips where he uses those? If that's the case, I happen to agree with you, but he's still going to need 4 Epic feats to cast a Maximised Energy Drain and still have the Epic Spellcasting feat, which puts him at level 26 minimum, 5 Epic feats - level 27 - to cast a Quickened 9th level spell, and given the likelihood of him having Epic Skill Focus so as to cast Superb Dispelling, he'd have to be 29th level, or 27th without the fourth Improved Spell Capacity feat and a +2 Int bonus.

Still Meteor Swarm:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

Maximise Energy Drain:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

[Steven]

I still don't see the need for quickened spell. It seems more likely to be that X cast the maximized spell as a full round action and then was shown moving and blasting to save on have an extra panel.

That means that our paladin friend only gets 3 attacks per round however.

[Quartz]

Still Meteor Swarm:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

Maximise Energy Drain:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

Thanks.

It occurs to me that there's yet another way. In another sourcebook, the Immortals Handbook (http://www.immortalshandbook.com), there's the Automatic Metamagic Capacity (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm) Epic feat. Note that this is free to use, so there are no copyright issues. Xykon would still need three of them, plus Epic Spellcasting, plus Epic Skill Focus, for a total of 5 Epic feats (6 for Quickening), and so level 27 (or 29). This makes more thematic sense as it means Xykon can cast metamagicked spells normally, without having to take full-round actions.

[hamishspence]

Thanks.

It occurs to me that there's yet another way. In another sourcebook, the Immortals Handbook (http://www.immortalshandbook.com), there's the Automatic Metamagic Capacity (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm) Epic feat. Note that this is free to use, so there are no copyright issues.
The Giant using 3rd party - even free 3rd party, seems a little doubtful, though I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

I figure that it's more likely that feats would be the official ones.

Regarding what items Xykon has - I figure ones in books, are a bit more likely than homebrew ones.

Raising the question of what Xykon's "fire immunity" item is - a homebrew one, or a more obvious one like the Epic "Ring of Energy Immunity". If it's that, it would suggest Xykon has the Forge Epic Ring feat

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#forgeEpicRing

putting him at at least 32nd level (allowing him more feats).

[Peelee]

Thanks.

It occurs to me that there's yet another way. In another sourcebook, the Immortals Handbook (http://www.immortalshandbook.com), there's the Automatic Metamagic Capacity (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm) Epic feat. Note that this is free to use, so there are no copyright issues. Xykon would still need three of them, plus Epic Spellcasting, plus Epic Skill Focus, for a total of 5 Epic feats (6 for Quickening), and so level 27 (or 29). This makes more thematic sense as it means Xykon can cast spells normally, without having to take full-round actions.

Well, if there's 3rd source pulling, wouldn't it be easier for the Giant to make up his own rules to go by? I see no reason he would pigeonhole himself this way.

[Kurald Galain]

Raising the question of what Xykon's "fire immunity" item is - a homebrew one, or a more obvious one like the Epic "Ring of Energy Immunity". If it's that, it would suggest Xykon has the Forge Epic Ring feat
It is worth noting (indeed, it is in the FAQ) that WOTC's official 3.5 material contains several lower-level items that grant fire immunity. So Xykon's unspecified anti-fire item doesn't give a meaningful indication of his level.

[hamishspence]

It is worth noting (indeed, it is in the FAQ) that WOTC's official 3.5 material contains several lower-level items that grant fire immunity.

Those might be from a bit more obscure sources than the Ring is - still, that's a valid point.

[Quartz]

Well, if there's 3rd source pulling, wouldn't it be easier for the Giant to make up his own rules to go by? I see no reason he would pigeonhole himself this way.

If memory serves, he has contributed to a number of published works.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, he thought he did - as that strip shows, it had gone and the hobgoblins had built their encampment on it.

Incorrect. Xykon's reserve dungeon exists: it is the tower filled with good-aligned creatures where he, at the very least, was storing the Diary with the location of all the gates. He could easily have kept a bunch of fall-back magic items there, too.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

If memory serves, he has contributed to a number of published works.

Indeed, he is proven at being well-versed in game design. Which supports my argument of, "why would he search obscure third party sources for a very specific feat when could make his own and call it 'Xykon's Awesome Metamagic,' which would do exactly what he needed it to do?"

[Emanick]

I think this whole tangent is probably destined to be a fruitless one. The Giant almost certainly has never bothered to make a list of Xykon's feats, so whether or not he's read a given sourcebook, or whether it would be legal for him to use a given feat from one of said books, is likely irrelevant. The real task here, IMO, is to figure out which sourcebooks we want to treat as applicable to the OOTSverse, so that we can figure out which rules Xykon may actually be making use of in order to do his thang.

[Douglas]

And in SoD, we do see him cast Energy Drain at least twice in one round.
That event happened before the update to 3.5 in strip #1. Under 3.0 rules, casting two spells in one round is trivially explained by the 3rd level buff spell Haste.


So the follow-on question is, do we see Xykon cast two spells in one round elsewhere?
I don't think so.

[littlebum2002]

Given how often he throws around metamagic high level spells (Still Meteor Swarm, Maximize Energy Drain) it does seem to me a bit more likely that he's using Improved Spell Capacity, than that he's using Rods, or those "X Metamagic 3 times per day" feats.

Wait, wait, let me get this clear. We've seen Xykon use metamagic twice in what? A hundred years? And you're saying, because of that evidence, only being able to use metamagic 3x/day ISN'T enough?

Xykon could have a "free metamagic 2 times per decade" feat and it would be enough to use all the metamagic we have seen him use.

[hamishspence]

It's more that, when using different types of metamagic on 9th level spells - being able to do so via one thing (Improved Spell Capacity) makes more sense to me than being able to do so via two different things (2 metamagic feats, or two magic items).

[Kornaki]

I still don't see the need for quickened spell. It seems more likely to be that X cast the maximized spell as a full round action and then was shown moving and blasting to save on have an extra panel.

That means that our paladin friend only gets 3 attacks per round however.

I still maintain that two attacks per round at the time of the strip makes the most sense.

[Chronos]

Aha, I knew that the whole Rapid Metamagic/Metamagic Specialist thing had come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329816-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XII-Even-Nerds-Call-Us-Nerds/page14)! The primary evidence discussed at that time was 656 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), where he apparently moved and cast a maximized Lightning Bolt in the same round. On looking over it again, I don't think that evidence holds: That could have been the previous round, with a standard action to Meteor Swarm and a move to over Jirix's corpse, followed by a full-round maximized lightning bolt.

However, we also have the point that he cast a metamagicked Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) while grappled, and only spells with a standard action or less casting time can be cast while grappled. There, we're forced to assume either some means of metamagicking in a standard action, or a violation of the rules, and assuming a violation of the rules should be considered a last resort in this thread.

[Peelee]

Wait, wait, let me get this clear. We've seen Xykon use metamagic twice in what? A hundred years? And you're saying, because of that evidence, only being able to use metamagic 3x/day ISN'T enough?

Xykon could have a "free metamagic 2 times per decade" feat and it would be enough to use all the metamagic we have seen him use.

Three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html).

Four (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).

Can't link to SoD, but I'm sure there's some in there too. Xykon does enjoy a good metamagic, is what I'm saying. Mostly maximize, but his Stilled Meteor Swarm means he's not a one-trick pony.

[Kornaki]

OK, so he can definitely quicken some very high level spells. That, and the fact that we don't see him tack extra magic missiles onto his turns, suggests that he does not have automatic quicken, and instead probably has something that lets him do it a limited time.

Also, I noticed that crushing hand, like all the lines, has as many hit points as you do when undamaged. Since a meteor swarm took out the hand, that means that V's maximum hit points (at the time of that strip) was 192. Not particularly enlightening unfortunately.

[rodneyAnonymous]

OK, so he can definitely quicken some very high level spells.

What? Why?!

[Kornaki]

What? Why?!

You're right, he could just have sudden still. I got myself confused.

[littlebum2002]

It's more that, when using different types of metamagic on 9th level spells - being able to do so via one thing (Improved Spell Capacity) makes more sense to me than being able to do so via two different things (2 metamagic feats, or two magic items).

Ok, that makes more sense. I just wasn't reading you right. And the fact that he's not CONSTANTLY using it, to me, also makes free metamagic unlikely.

[Kurald Galain]

Speaking of Xykon, I note from SOD that he should have a ring of Positive Energy protection.

Furthermore, in comic 661 he first bursts through a solid stone wall, and then uses some kind of explosive spell that knocks down more walls. Any thoughts on how he might accomplish that?

[Steven]

I thought the assumption was that he lost anything from SoD in the explosion.

[D.One]

About the wallbreaking, I've allways assumed it was just display of raw strength (despite de black aura).

The second explosion, though, I think deserves some spell research (no pun intended).

[Quild]

Incorrect. Xykon's reserve dungeon exists: it is the tower filled with good-aligned creatures where he, at the very least, was storing the Diary with the location of all the gates. He could easily have kept a bunch of fall-back magic items there, too.

Grey Wolf
too?

Not sure what you mean. Are we ok that there was no dungeon in the valley where the hobgoblins were. They did not built an encampment on it as Quartz fought, they just are on the path between the reserve dungeon and the Dungeon of Dorukan.

If there is a doubt, #190 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) may clear it.


On another subject, I was under the impression that SoD and On the Origin of PCs were written with 3.5 rules despite being before the first strip. The same for Uncivil Servant.

[hamishspence]

At one point in Origin of PCs Durkon says to Roy (when Roy overestimates Durkon's speed) "This be a prequel you fool! We're still under 3.0 rules!"

[Kurald Galain]

We need smilies!
Over time, the smilies for Yikyik, Yukyuk, Soul Muncher, Jacinda, Kraagor, and Samantha have gone missing. If you have a suitable replacement, please post it in this thread. Thanks!

[ti'esar]

As I mentioned recently in another thread, the OOTS Smilies thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?96672-Order-of-the-Stick-Smilies) in my signature still has them.

(Except for "Soul Muncher", which never had one that I know of).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As I mentioned recently in another thread, the OOTS Smilies thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?96672-Order-of-the-Stick-Smilies) in my signature still has them.

(Except for "Soul Muncher", which never had one that I know of).

I don't think I realized until now that the links had been fixed in that thread some time ago. Yeah, we should be able to use those images just fine.

[Kurald Galain]

As I mentioned recently in another thread, the OOTS Smilies thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?96672-Order-of-the-Stick-Smilies) in my signature still has them.

(Except for "Soul Muncher", which never had one that I know of).

Thanks!

Also, what is Bounding Attack and why is it listed for Belkar?

[Quild]

Thanks!

Also, what is Bounding Attack and why is it listed for Belkar?

I think it relates to this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

It reminds me the "Leap Attack" that I've been using with a lvl12 warrior/ Frenzied berserker dwarf character with 2H axe for a one shot scenario, but Belkar didn't charge.

I miss that character... It was really a one shot character :D.
The hard part was to get at least 20 yards between enemies and me, but for some reason they had the wrong reflexe to try to flee.


Omg, I still have the character sheet <3

[illyahr]

Thanks!

Also, what is Bounding Attack and why is it listed for Belkar?

It's an enhancement to Spring Attack, giving you an extra attack during your movement.

[illyahr]

One of Haley's wands is Magic Missle as per 973 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html).

[Zweisteine]

One of Haley's wands is Magic Missle as per 973 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html).

And the Giant has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394402-OOTS-973-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18698547&viewfull=1#post18698547) that.


It's a Magic Missile.

[Quartz]

Does 973 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) mean that Haley has the Far Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot) feat?

[Kornaki]

The maximum range of a bow is ridiculously far (you just have a big penalty to your to-hit, but you can shoot an arrow 1000 feet). I think the point of the scene is just to demonstrate that she is not recovering those arrows, not that she is shooting the arrows very far anyway.

[littlebum2002]

Does 973 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) mean that Haley has the Far Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot) feat?

If we can prove that it went over 1000'

[Zweisteine]

The maximum range of a bow is ridiculously far (you just have a big penalty to your to-hit, but you can shoot an arrow 1000 feet).
Unless you're using a better bow. A composite longbow can hit 1100 feet.
Speaking of composite bows, how do we know Haley's bow isn't? Or do we?
If we don't, maybe that should be noted? (i.e. "+5 Icy Burst (Composite?) Longbow")

(For reference: Ranged weapons have a stacking -2 penalty to attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first. Projectile weapons have a maximum range of 10 range increments. The range increment of a normal longbow is 100 feet.)


I think the point of the scene is just to demonstrate that she is not recovering those arrows, not that she is shooting the arrows very far anyway.
Yep. Isn't it possible that they were right next to the ocean, anyway? Three panels could be as little as 3 meters.


EDIT:
Looking at Haley's statblock, I've noticed a few things.
1. Shouldn't her bow be listed as "+5 Icy Burst Longbow"? "+5 Longbow of Icy Burst" just feels wrong (and isn't how the SRD does it).
2. There is no citation for her having feats instead of rogue special abilities.

[illyahr]

Do you think The Giant put those Adamantine arrows in there just to toll this thread?

"Ok, there was never any indication she had these but now she did but now she doesn't. Take that, Class and Level Geekery thread!" :smalltongue:

[D.One]

Do you think The Giant put those Adamantine arrows in there just to toll this thread?

"Ok, there was never any indication she had these but now she did but now she doesn't. Take that, Class and Level Geekery thread!" :smalltongue:

It strikes me as the classic "Now she solved the problem...No, she didn't." situation. On the other hand, the Giant has proven himself capable of exploring tiny details, so maybe that's not the last time we saw those arrows...

[Chronos]

Haley has feats instead of rogue abilities because she has too many feats otherwise.

Honestly, I'd almost think she had a ranger dip, if it weren't for panel 5 of 518 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html). It would account for her using a longbow instead of a shortbow (why would anyone ever spend a feat just for that?), and it'd also give her Rapid Shot for free, easing her feat situation further.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Haley has feats instead of rogue abilities because she has too many feats otherwise.

Honestly, I'd almost think she had a ranger dip, if it weren't for panel 5 of 518 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html). It would account for her using a longbow instead of a shortbow (why would anyone ever spend a feat just for that?), and it'd also give her Rapid Shot for free, easing her feat situation further.

She suggests that she should...perhaps next level she did... especially since she hasn't gotten to fight an airborn tramp since, since she was stone in the the Empire of Blood battle, and Sabine got banished in the Pyramid battle.

[Quild]

Do you think The Giant put those Adamantine arrows in there just to toll this thread?

"Ok, there was never any indication she had these but now she did but now she doesn't. Take that, Class and Level Geekery thread!" :smalltongue:

What is the difference between standard arrows and adamantine arrows? +1 to hit?

Haley shot 4 arrows in previous page, those hit.
Here she shot 3 arrows, those miss.
:smallconfused:

[littlebum2002]

What is the difference between standard arrows and adamantine arrows? +1 to hit?

Haley shot 4 arrows in previous page, those hit.
Here she shot 3 arrows, those miss.
:smallconfused:

Adamentine arrows have +1 to hit, but they also bypass the DR of many creatures, like Golems. Not devils (or demons) though, so not sure why Haley had them for Sabine.

Although I've had DM's who let Adamantine count when overcoming DR/adamantine, DR/silver or DR/cold iron, so this perhaps might be the case, but I'm pretty positive that's a houserule.

[Peelee]

Adamentine arrows have +1 to hit, but they also bypass the DR of many creatures, like Golems. Not devils though, so not sure why Haley had them for Sabine.

Although I've had DM's who let Adamantine count when overcoming DR/adamantine, DR/silver or DR/cold iron, so this perhaps might be the case, but I'm pretty positive that's a houserule.

Sabine's a succubus. Demon, not devil.

[SavageWombat]

Not devils (or demons) though, so not sure why Haley had them for Sabine.


Haley probably has a bunch of every kind of arrow they make at this point, hoping to figure out which metal works on her.

[zimmerwald1915]

Haley has feats instead of rogue abilities because she has too many feats otherwise.
And? You can use your rogue abilities to get bonus feats. In core, no less.

[Kornaki]

And? You can use your rogue abilities to get bonus feats. In core, no less.

There's no point beyond what he explicitly stated. He was replying to


2. There is no citation for her having feats instead of rogue special abilities.



from above.

[unbeliever536]

And? You can use your rogue abilities to get bonus feats. In core, no less.

That's the complaint Chronos was responding to - that Haley was noted as having taken free feats rather than (specified) rogue bonus abilities, and this was uncited. Chronos cited the number of feats as a reason why she must have chosen to spend her rogue abilities on bonus feats.

[Boost]

Adamentine arrows have +1 to hit, but they also bypass the DR of many creatures, like Golems. Not devils (or demons) though, so not sure why Haley had them for Sabine.

Although I've had DM's who let Adamantine count when overcoming DR/adamantine, DR/silver or DR/cold iron, so this perhaps might be the case, but I'm pretty positive that's a houserule.

Haley has no ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and therefore has no idea what type of metal to use against Sabine. She previously used Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) to just fire both silver and cold iron at Sabine at the same time. Then in a later battle with Sabine, she stabbed her with both types of arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html). But in each case, she never actually figured out what was effective. So the most likely explanation is Haley is using guesswork, and simply hoping adamantine would work against Sabine, because she's never been established in the comic as actually knowing for sure what the best way is to bypass Sabine's DR.

Just because we know it wouldn't work doesn't mean Haley would know before she tried.

[KillingAScarab]

One of Haley's wands is Magic Missle as per 973 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html).


And the Giant has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394402-OOTS-973-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18698547&viewfull=1#post18698547) that.

It also appears to be a wand of magic missiles with a caster level of 5 (see Table: Wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm)). Otherwise, it would not have created three missiles.

One data point probably isn't enough for this, but would Haley have only purchased a wand with that low of a caster level to avoid the sort of mishap she had in panel 5 of #970?

[goto124]

Wouldn't adding the word 'Quickened' to the spell slow down the casting of the spell by a few microseconds? :P

[Peelee]

Wouldn't adding the word 'Quickened' to the spell slow down the casting of the spell by a few microseconds? :P

No. Magic.

[Kornaki]

It also appears to be a wand of magic missiles with a caster level of 5 (see Table: Wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm)). Otherwise, it would not have created three missiles.

One data point probably isn't enough for this, but would Haley have only purchased a wand with that low of a caster level to avoid the sort of mishap she had in panel 5 of #970?

Level 5 is the lowest level caster capable of making a wand, so it's not surprising that it's caster level 5.

[Kurald Galain]

Added MM wand to Haley, fixed link for Bounding Attack, changed wording of Icy Burst longbow, added explanation why Haley spent her abilities on feats.

[Douglas]

One data point probably isn't enough for this, but would Haley have only purchased a wand with that low of a caster level to avoid the sort of mishap she had in panel 5 of #970?
Wands all have the same Use Magic Device DC regardless of caster level.

[Quild]

Wouldn't adding the word 'Quickened' to the spell slow down the casting of the spell by a few microseconds? :P

You should see that differently. When you don't quicken the spell, you can't cast another one before 6 seconds (next round). During this delay, you can say the words, you won't cast a spell or do something else. Let say that you are mentally exhausted or whatever.

But with some exceptions, like quickening a spell. In this case, you don't have the "global cooldown" that you should have on your other spells or actions and you can do something else.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You should see that differently. When you don't quicken the spell, you can't cast another one before 6 seconds (next round). During this delay, you can say the words, you won't cast a spell or do something else. Let say that you are mentally exhausted or whatever.

In regular D&D, that is a good explanation. In OotS, you don't need one. Magic is just a bitch that way: see V's despair at having to give the magic word: kill 6 pages of "alone" space in her spell book. And Xykon only being able to craft magic items for 8 hours a day, even though he doesn't sleep. Equally, quickened takes longer to say, but shorter to cast, because.

Grey Wolf

[Quild]

In regular D&D, that is a good explanation. In OotS, you don't need one. Magic is just a bitch that way: see V's despair at having to give the magic word: kill 6 pages of "alone" space in her spell book. And Xykon only being able to craft magic items for 8 hours a day, even though he doesn't sleep. Equally, quickened takes longer to say, but shorter to cast, because.

Grey Wolf

I know you know that, but maybe it's not clear to everyone.
The purpose of a quickening is not that the fireball will be thrown faster at it's target (I think the quickened dimensional anchor against Qarr was before I first played D&D and I thought the choice to quicken the spell was due to Qarr being quick and agile), it's that without the quickening, there would be only one (spell per round). Or one full action at least.

You don't see much it in oots, but casting a spell is not about just shouting it's name.
For instance, when V casts a fireball, s/he requires :
- Vocal components (incantation, or in oots, telling the spell's name)
- Somatic components (a precise hand gesture)
- Material components (in the case of Fireball, bat guano and sulfur)

This is why V says "I love the smell of bat guano in the morning." (also reference to Apocalypse Now) and why Redcloak taunts Tsukiko in #830 about the few spells she can casts while being grapled. Or why V can't use most of hir spell when polymorphed in a lizard.

This is also why O'Chul says "no more spells." when taking RC's holy symbol, which is required for most cleric spells (but Word of Recall does not require it).


Now, to quicken a spell still requires components. I don't think rules says why and how you can go faster, I guess you can interpret it as you want.
Maybe a quickened spell requires a shorter incantation, maybe the components are summoned in your hand instead of having to take them in the adequate pouch, maybe the hand gesture is not the same.


I totally failed my pun about Highlander, can't find any better :(

[illyahr]

I always felt that a Quickened spell had all of its components taken care of before hand and that's why it was faster. You'd say the words, do the gestures, and burn the materials and then hold the charge until later so you're just releasing the spell.

[littlebum2002]

Equally, quickened takes longer to say, but shorter to cast, because.

Grey Wolf

It sounded like you're saying "shorter to cast because Grey Wolf made it so"

[Peelee]

It sounded like you're saying "shorter to cast because Grey Wolf made it so"

Well, that's the rationale I give in my games. For a great many things.

[Chronos]

When you give that explanation, do the other players ever ask you who Grey Wolf is?

[bookguy]

Can we add Items: dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html) to Jacinda?

[ti'esar]

This is nitpicky, but in 849 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html) Tarquin says the glamered effect is "one of" his armor's enchantments. Should the fact that there are unspecified others be indicated on his entry?

[Kurald Galain]

Can we add Items: dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html) to Jacinda?
Done.


Should the fact that there are unspecified others be indicated on his entry?
Generally speaking, everything in the top post can be assumed to have unspecified others: characters probably have more feats than listed, carry some items we haven't seen yet, and have points in skills that we don't know about.


I've seen in some earlier thread that Tarquin's dwarf tossing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) suggests he has the Soaring Throw maneuver from Tome of Battle. Does that sound plausible or do people have another explanation for that comic?

[Chronos]

We now know that Crystal cost five times as much as an ordinary flesh golem. Does this give guidance as to what sort of golem she is?

[SinsI]

I'd say Crystal is basic Flesh Golem added as Template. if Crystal is lvl 16, 16 extra HD at 5000 gp/hd brings the total cost to almost exactly 5 times basic Flesh Golem cost.

[Crusher]

Well, that's the rationale I give in my games. For a great many things.

"Make it so, Number Peelee." - Greywolfc

[Timy]

Why all feats have disapeared from Tarquin sheet ?

I guess it is the infinite deflection that has been voted out but Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html), quick draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) and I guess Improved grapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html) can still be listed.

[rodneyAnonymous]

One of Haley's wands casts fly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html)

[TheWombatOfDoom]

One of Haley's wands casts fly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html)

Is it fly, or another spell that allows you to fly like overland flight?

[Timy]

Is it fly, or another spell that allows you to fly like overland flight?

Because Overland Flight is a 5th level spell and a wand can only have 4th level spells or lower.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Because Overland Flight is a 5th level spell and a wand can only have 4th level spells or lower.

Excellent. Good to know! I'll have to add that to my Spell Compendium.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why all feats have disapeared from Tarquin sheet ?

I guess it is the infinite deflection that has been voted out but Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html), quick draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) and I guess Improved grapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html) can still be listed.

I can't comment on those feats, since I don't know them well enough to know if there are problems with them, but Tarquin is also missing a minimum level (whatever is enough to resist Holy Word completely), and he has spellcraft listed twice.

Grey Wolf

[Quild]

I was wondering if Haley carrying Bandana could give us any indication about her strength but Elan in #923 was definitely heavier than Bandana is (male + chain skirt vs skinny female + leather).

Haley doesn't seem to go (much ?) slower than V when carrying Elan... I'm not very familiar about these carrying rules, but isn't the minimum of 13 strength quite low?

[D.One]

About Tarquin's level, I believe he must be at least 16 (probably higher), since he ignored Holy Word and Durkon's caster level was 15 (Good Domain).

About Haley's Strenght, the description of the Fly spell states that the subject cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor he/she wears. It also says that subject's speed is reduced if he/she carries medium/heavy load.

If we assume that Elan is on the lowest point of the male human weight curve (124 lb), Haley must have a Strenght of at least 13 (Maximun load of 150 lb) to carry Elan + Chain Shirt (25 lb), if we do not take any other equipment into account. Since we know Elan has more than just 1 pound with him besides the Chain Shirt, it seems logical that Haley should have at least STR 14.

IF we assume Haley's flying movement has not been impaired by carrying Bandana, and assuming Bandana on the lowest point of the female human weight curve (89 lb, acording to PHB), Haley's Strenght should be at least 18(Light load of 100 lb), which I think unlikely.

[Rakoa]

I was under the assumption that Rich ignores those flight carrying rules. I seem to recall something about V flying away with Roy, armour and all.

[Douglas]

I was under the assumption that Rich ignores those flight carrying rules. I seem to recall something about V flying away with Roy, armour and all.
Indeed. We've tried calculating strength scores from flight carrying capacity before, and it has a strong tendency to result in either absurdly high values or the assumption that almost everyone has the same overly specific obscure feats. Or both.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're going to make vague claims like that, you should post evidence. Handwaving doesn't get us anywhere.

[Rakoa]

If you're going to make vague claims like that, you should post evidence. Handwaving doesn't get us anywhere.

Interestingly, without a quote to know who you're responding to, this qualifies as vague.

[zimmerwald1915]

About Tarquin's level, I believe he must be at least 16 (probably higher), since he ignored Holy Word and Durkon's caster level was 15 (Good Domain).
At least 17. Durkon had the Good Domain at the time, which gave his [Good] spells, like Holy Word, +1 CL.

[ti'esar]

About Tarquin's level, I believe he must be at least 16 (probably higher), since he ignored Holy Word and Durkon's caster level was 15 (Good Domain).At least 17. Durkon had the Good Domain at the time, which gave his [Good] spells, like Holy Word, +1 CL.

Huh, how do we not have that already? The Holy Word scene is cited for Nale, Z, and Kilkil's levels.

[Rakoa]

Huh, how do we not have that already? The Holy Word scene is cited for Nale, Z, and Kilkil's levels.

I'm guessing it would be because Tarquin was listed at 21+ with Infinite Deflection, and when Infinite Deflection was removed due to lack of support, his minimum level was also removed without being re-checked for a lower possible minimum.

[Emanick]

At least 17. Durkon had the Good Domain at the time, which gave his [Good] spells, like Holy Word, +1 CL.

No, I think it's still 16. Durkon was pegged at 14 at the time, which means that even with the Good Domain, he couldn't affect characters level 16 and over with Holy Word.

[Hecuba]

If you're going to make vague claims like that, you should post evidence. Handwaving doesn't get us anywhere.

Assuming you're referring to carrying capacity and flight, the math has been done a couple times in earlier versions of this thread. Off the top of my head, I believe it's been done for V carrying Roy and for Sabine carrying Thog and Nale. In both cases, the results were way out of line with the other evidence available - I seem to recall that it would have required over 18 Strength for V and high 20s for Sabine.

The math should be easy enough to repeat if you really want to, but it would be retreading old ground at this point. It's actually something that has been suggested as an entry in the thread's FAQ more than once.

[Douglas]

I also remember Celia carrying Roy, which again resulted in strength somewhere in the 20s I think for Celia. Pretty much, every time a strength score was calculated based on flight carrying capacity, the result was in the range to be expected only from strength-based fighter types, often high level strength-based types loaded with magical boosts. And this was true for several different characters, none of whom were strength-based fighter types at all.

As for specifics, I'd have to go digging a bit, but I remember lengthy debates about it multiple times in previous incarnations of this thread.

[Quild]

I also remember Celia carrying Roy, which again resulted in strength somewhere in the 20s I think for Celia. Pretty much, every time a strength score was calculated based on flight carrying capacity, the result was in the range to be expected only from strength-based fighter types, often high level strength-based types loaded with magical boosts. And this was true for several different characters, none of whom were strength-based fighter types at all.

As for specifics, I'd have to go digging a bit, but I remember lengthy debates about it multiple times in previous incarnations of this thread.

I'm fine with the final result that is that we should ignore those rules, but I'm not sure about how you get these results.

It can be considered that these flying characters can carry an heavy load, right?

Roy would be what... Around 260 lbs (this estimation is totally based on Dwayne Johnson's weight)? He's in casual wear, no armor, no weapon, 18 str seems sufficent.
Still unlikely high for Célia anyway, even if she had bull strength casted off panel...

[Kornaki]

I'm fine with the final result that is that we should ignore those rules, but I'm not sure about how you get these results.

It can be considered that these flying characters can carry an heavy load, right?

Roy would be what... Around 260 lbs (this estimation is totally based on Dwayne Johnson's weight)? He's in casual wear, no armor, no weapon, 18 str seems sufficent.
Still unlikely high for Célia anyway, even if she had bull strength casted off panel...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly

Flying requires a light load.

[D.One]

In fact, the Flight spell states that a medium or heavy load reduces its speed, but the subject still flies.

Anyway, the math still gives us high strenght numbers...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In fact, the Flight spell states that a medium or heavy load reduces its speed, but the subject still flies.

Neither Celia nor Sabine are using spells, though.

GW

[Peelee]

this estimation is totally based on Dwayne Johnson's weight

I would just like you to know that I am from now on changing all my metrics to have Dwayne Johnson as the base unit.

[Quild]

I would just like you to know that I am from now on changing all my metrics to have Dwayne Johnson as the base unit.

Well, I kinda like to picture him as Roy if there was to be a movie.
I wouldn't take him as a reference for Belkar though.

Edit: Though, now that I think about it...

[Crusher]

Well, I kinda like to picture him as Roy if there was to be a movie.
I wouldn't take him as a reference for Belkar though.

Edit: Though, now that I think about it...

Sure, its still pretty easy to do the math if you figure Belkar works out to about 0.3 Rocks including gear. Hmm, maybe 0.2?

[Peelee]

Sure, its still pretty easy to do the math if you figure Belkar works out to about 0.3 Rocks including gear. Hmm, maybe 0.2?

He's clearly 18/7 Dwayne Johnsons.

[Kornaki]

Neither Celia nor Sabine are using spells, though.

GW

Just to kind of squash that line of thinking a bit more, the fly spell in the same parenthetical says the flyer might have medium or heavy armor, which in the general fly rule does not prevent you from flying. So the fly spell is indeed a specific counterexample to the general rule on flying while encumbered.

[JustWantedToSay]

In fact, the Flight spell states that a medium or heavy load reduces its speed, but the subject still flies.

Anyway, the math still gives us high strenght numbers...


Neither Celia nor Sabine are using spells, though.

GW

Outsider Wings (Races of Faerun) gives flight with medium and heavy loads, with the appropriate speed penalty.

[Douglas]

Outsider Wings (Races of Faerun) gives flight with medium and heavy loads, with the appropriate speed penalty.
Which brings us to the aforementioned overly specific and obscure feats, which I don't think are really any better an explanation than the outlandishly high strength scores.

[Douglas]

Haley now has an adamantine dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html). Also, her cash on hand has been reduced by a sack of gold about half the size of a gnome.

[littlebum2002]

Obviously, now we need to calculate how much it would cost to retire in the tropics and reduce Haley's money by that amount.

[Peelee]

Obviously, now we need to calculate how much it would cost to retire in the tropics and reduce Haley's money by that amount.

Enough gold for the voyage and skill points in Survival.

[Hecuba]

Do we know, geographically, how far Tinkertown is from the tropics? Has it appeared on any of the maps we've seen?

Also, the nice elderly Gnomish couple seem to be respectable shopkeepers rather that murder-hobos.
Between the Stronghold builders guide and the DMG, I'm sure there is pricing for a thatched hut or something they can buy once they reach the tropics.

Realistically though, that's probably going to cost them (at most) the visible top layer of the the coins Hailey threw at them.

I was wrong on this part. See below.

[D.One]

Realistically though, that's probably going to cost them (at most) the visible top layer of the the coins Hailey threw at them.

Let's not forget they weren't talking about "taking a trip to the tropics". They said "enough to retire to the tropics", as in "stop working and spend the rest of our lifes on a beach vacation"...

At least, that's how it sounded to me.

[Hecuba]

Let's not forget they weren't talking about "taking a trip to the tropics". They said "enough to retire to the tropics", as in "stop working and spend the rest of our lifes on a beach vacation"...

At least, that's how it sounded to me.

Actually, it looks like I was off base here. I had a range of NPC income in my head which did not match the actual values.

Housing costs are higher than I remember. A Simple House is 1000gp. You could probably swing significantly less by aiming for a cottage from SBG instead, but we're still in reasonable cost range for the gold we see.
Presumably, however, they already have a house they could sell before buying a new one.

As to income: these gnomes are seemingly making their living on craft rather then profession, so that is more variable.
If we're generous and say they need the same average income as a level 20 expert would make from maxed profession checks while rolling 10, we're still only looking at 16.5 gold/week.
If they can instead retire off of what a level 5 expert would reliably make, it would be 9 gold/week.

As such, the Bag-O-Gold is likely actually in line with a good retirement fund for them after all.

[hamishspence]

Housing costs are higher than I remember. A Simple House is 1000gp. You could probably swing significantly less by aiming for a cottage from SBG instead, but we're still in reasonable cost range for the gold we see.

Probably cost more using Stronghold Builder's Guide. 2 small cheap bedrooms cost 700 gp. One large cheap bedroom costs 800 gp. And that's before you get into kitchens and whatnot.

[Bird]

Which brings us to the aforementioned overly specific and obscure feats, which I don't think are really any better an explanation than the outlandishly high strength scores.
In Sabine's case, it's evident to me that she does have an outlandishly high strength score.

Beyond the flight capacity stuff, here she is punching a guard with heavy armor through the chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) and then lifting him off the ground one-armed with no evident strain.

Then we have her tossing large furniture around the room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). (Less impressive than the previous, because furniture can be constructed lightly, but it's consistent with her presentation as a high-strength character.)

Oh, and here she is lifting Roy up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) and tossing him around like a rag doll. (Roy, whom we know to wear armor, and we know to be big (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), and therefore of at-least-average weight.)

To me, this is enough to settle on a "she has high strength" explanation for Sabine, even if we have to remain agnostic about Celia and V.

[Crusher]

In Sabine's case, it's evident to me that she does have an outlandishly high strength score.

Beyond the flight capacity stuff, here she is punching a guard with heavy armor through the chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) and then lifting him off the ground one-armed with no evident strain.

Then we have her tossing large furniture around the room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). (Less impressive than the previous, because furniture can be constructed lightly, but it's consistent with her presentation as a high-strength character.)

Oh, and here she is lifting Roy up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) and tossing him around like a rag doll. (Roy, whom we know to wear armor, and we know to be big (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), and therefore of at-least-average weight.)

To me, this is enough to settle on a "she has high strength" explanation for Sabine, even if we have to remain agnostic about Celia and V.

I have to agree here. Also worth noting is that during the battle in Cliffport, she lifts Roy up *with one hand*, and its not a flying/carrying kinda thing. She had pile-drived him prone into the ground the panel before, and the next panel she's holding him up in the air with one hand. So at a minimum she's capable of holding him up with one hand, and its even possible she can flat-out pick him up off the ground with one hand. Yes, she's enchanted with every buff spell they had available, but even if you assume she's rolling with a +4 from Bull's STR, she still needs a substantial pre-buff STR to pull that off.

[Hecuba]

In Sabine's case, it's evident to me that she does have an outlandishly high strength score.

Beyond the flight capacity stuff, here she is punching a guard with heavy armor through the chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) and then lifting him off the ground one-armed with no evident strain.

Then we have her tossing large furniture around the room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). (Less impressive than the previous, because furniture can be constructed lightly, but it's consistent with her presentation as a high-strength character.)

Oh, and here she is lifting Roy up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) and tossing him around like a rag doll. (Roy, whom we know to wear armor, and we know to be big (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), and therefore of at-least-average weight.)

To me, this is enough to settle on a "she has high strength" explanation for Sabine, even if we have to remain agnostic about Celia and V.

First:

A therefore B is not the same thing as Not A therefore Not B.
Accepting that carrying capacity does not limit flight does not change the conclusions we draw from Sabine's other strength-related actions.


Second:

By the RAW rules for flight loads, flying away with Nale and Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)is an order of magnitude more difficult than the examples you gave.
Characters can fly with their light load, carry their twice heavy load while moving 5' per round, or drag five times their heavy load.
Lets say, conservatively, that Nale and Thog together weigh 350 pounds.
Extapolating from there using her carrying capacity would mean Sabine could:

Readily lift 1000 lbs over her head. That's about the weight of a telephone pole.
Readily lift 2000 pounds off the ground and carry it at a significantly reduced speed. That's about the weight of a small sailboat (~1300 lbs) with 3-5 people on board.
Drag 5000 pounds without favorable conditions like wheels or slopes. That's 3 of the sailboats yoked up to the telephone pole and dragged to the harbor because you forgot your trailer.







Carrying capacity limitations for flight in effect
Carrying capacity limitations for flight NOT in effect


Sabine
Strength Very High
Strength High (evidence from other feats)


:vaarsuvius:
Strength High, though less so than for Sabine and Celia (indicated only from flight load, and counter to other evidence of a penalty)
No evidence of high strength


Celia
Strength Very High
No evidence of high strength

[Bird]

Accepting that carrying capacity does not limit flight does not change the conclusions we draw from Sabine's other strength-related actions.
That's fine. Carrying Nale & Thog is one more example indicative of her high strength, but her other actions can be assessed without it. On one hand, carrying Nale/Thog is the most relevant showing, because it would (as you point out) necessitate a higher strength than any other showing. On the other hand, there's the issue of comparison to Celia and Vaarsuvius, who do not show any other evidence of high strength, which leads to some folk wanting to throw out carrying capacity altogether.


Lets say, conservatively, that Nale and Thog together weigh 350 pounds.
As long as we're doing this--we know that Nale is 180 pounds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html) Have we got any evidence on Thog's weight, beyond pegging him at the minimum for a half-orc? Even any references to him being big, or a comparison of his size to Roy's?


Extapolating from there using her carrying capacity would mean Sabine could:
Readily lift 1000 lbs over her head. That's about the weight of a telephone pole.
I'm not sure if you're only trying to establish that this greatly outstrips her other showings, or if you're trying to imply that the idea that she could do this is outlandish. Just by point of comparison, though, if Roy has 24 str. with his belt, he can lift 700 pounds over his head.

As an aside--I'm not sure if there's a RAW explanation for Sabine punching an armored guard through the chest. Has anybody got anything?

[Rakoa]

As an aside--I'm not sure if there's a RAW explanation for Sabine punching an armored guard through the chest. Has anybody got anything?

Queue Tome of Battle.

[Hecuba]

I'm not sure if you're only trying to establish that this greatly outstrips her other showings, or if you're trying to imply that the idea that she could do this is outlandish. Just by point of comparison, though, if Roy has 24 str. with his belt, he can lift 700 pounds over his head.

As an aside--I'm not sure if there's a RAW explanation for Sabine punching an armored guard through the chest. Has anybody got anything?

My point is that it greatly outstrips her other showings, even if the effect is not totally inconsistent to the extent we see for V and Celia's flight-based carrying capacity.
Edit: To clarify this a bit, the only strength based showings that it come to mind that are not outstripped by flying Thog and Nale into the sunset are from the Monster in the Darkness.

The strength levels required are not impossible by any means, and I certainly agree that Sabine is strong.
But the results of her flight-based strength examples are still far enough out of line with her other showings that it (weakly) reenforces the conclusion I would otherwise draw from Celia and V -- that that rule is not in effect -- rather than undermining that conclusion.

As to the guard, the best I could see is some manner of representing a one-shot with a natural weapon (Succubi have natural claw attacks).
Otherwise, we need to find a way for a single attack to sunder the armor and attack the wearer.

[shmeck]

here i was waiting with bated breath to see the new thread title, and— true to form— it ends up being the most utterly humorless one of all... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17741734&postcount=929
"Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended" ..sounds like it's moderated by Stalin's ghost!

[Bird]

here i was waiting with bated breath to see the new thread title, and— true to form— it ends up being the most utterly humorless one of all... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17741734&postcount=929
"Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended" ..sounds like it's moderated by Stalin's ghost!
In Soviet Russia, ghost too busy counting spell slots to successfully complete punchline of Russian reversal joke.

[Hecuba]

In Soviet Russia, ghost too busy counting spell slots to successfully complete punchline of Russian reversal joke.

Bah! Spell-slots are but a tool of the Western Bourgeoisie Dogs, with their 9th level spells and full casting progression.
Be strong comrade! Embrace power points and essentia! Hold fast to the power systems of the people!

[wkwkwkwk1]

So, maybe this has been said before but... I believe there is an "unspecified polymorph" spell missing in Xykon's spell list, because I was re-reading SoD, and...




Xykon: So hold your damn horses, or I'll polymorph you into one.



What do you say?

[b_jonas]

So, maybe this has been said before but... I believe there is an "unspecified polymorph" spell missing in Xykon's spell list, because I was re-reading SoD, and...

I don't think that proves anything, unless you actually see him cast such a spell and he doesn't cast it from a wand or scroll or other magic item.

[wkwkwkwk1]

I don't think that proves anything, unless you actually see him cast such a spell and he doesn't cast it from a wand or scroll or other magic item.

If you look in the Xykon entry, you will see, for example, an "unspecified summoning spell", which links to strip #431, where Redcloak says "[Xykon would] Summon a few monsters for flavor", which is pretty much the same case, I'd say :smallsmile:

[Lvl45DM!]

If you look in the Xykon entry, you will see, for example, an "unspecified summoning spell", which links to strip #431, where Redcloak says "[Xykon would] Summon a few monsters for flavor", which is pretty much the same case, I'd say :smallsmile:

One is a hypothetical threat and turn of phrase that doesn't need to be true to be said.
The other is a battle plan made by a cunning tactician that would need to be true to be said or Redcloak is an idiot.

[wkwkwkwk1]

One is a hypothetical threat and turn of phrase that doesn't need to be true to be said.
The other is a battle plan made by a cunning tactician that would need to be true to be said or Redcloak is an idiot.

Got it. Putting it that way, I'd agree :smallsmile:

[Rakoa]

One is a hypothetical threat and turn of phrase that doesn't need to be true to be said.
The other is a battle plan made by a cunning tactician that would need to be true to be said or Redcloak is an idiot.

Well, to be fair, there is no int stat listed for Redcloak. :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

The only polymorph spell that could turn an unwilling target into a horse is Polymorph Any Object: Baleful Polymorph is limited to Small or smaller animals, and Polymorph requires a willing target. And I don't think there's room in Xykon's list for another 8th-level spell, is there?

On the other hand, if that quote came from Start of Darkness, that would be under 3.0 rules, and so he could be referring to Polymorph Other.

Meanwhile, Sabine poking clear through the guard's chest could be explained by a critical hit from a claw attack. We've seen characters get impaled plenty of times, even through armor. Roy, for instance, was recently impaled by a triceratops.

[Quartz]

The only polymorph spell that could turn an unwilling target into a horse is Polymorph Any Object: Baleful Polymorph is limited to Small or smaller animals, and Polymorph requires a willing target. And I don't think there's room in Xykon's list for another 8th-level spell, is there?


Does Xykon have room for another Epic spell? He's got three already - Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling, and Cloister.

[Quild]

The only polymorph spell that could turn an unwilling target into a horse is Polymorph Any Object: Baleful Polymorph is limited to Small or smaller animals, and Polymorph requires a willing target. And I don't think there's room in Xykon's list for another 8th-level spell, is there?

On another hand, is Redcloak in position to refuse to be polymorphed?

Would Redcloak have a better knowledge of Xykon's spell list at this moment, a dialogue like "You don't have that spell sir"/"whatever" doesn't sound out of characters to me.

Also couldn't Xykon use a scroll or something for that?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Does Xykon have room for another Epic spell? He's got three already - Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling, and Cloister.

Isn't Cloister cast from the headband of Dorukan, though?

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't Cloister cast from the headband of Dorukan, though?
The headband is a "material focus." It's not a wondrous item activated by a command word.

[Jasdoif]

Does Xykon have room for another Epic spell? He's got three already - Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling, and Cloister.There's no limit on epic spells known.

[Quartz]

There's no limit on epic spells known.

Really? That vastly increases the power of 3E Epic sorcerers.

[Douglas]

Really? That vastly increases the power of 3E Epic sorcerers.
It's still rather extremely expensive to learn each epic spell. For example, Epic Mage Armor is a fairly simple and basic one, and even that cost Xykon 414000 gp and 16560 xp to learn.

[Loreweaver15]

I'm confused; I thought you needed to take a feat for each Epic Spell you came up with. How does that system work, exactly?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm confused; I thought you needed to take a feat for each Epic Spell you came up with. How does that system work, exactly?

SRD Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm)

GW

[LightPhoenix]

On the topic of Epic Spells, since Xykon casts Superb Dispelling in #653 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), and since per the SRD Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm), assuming Xykon rolls a 20 for the Spellcraft check his total modifier must be 39+? (For reference, Epic Mage Armor is 46 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/epicMageArmor.htm) and Cloister is a custom spell).

ETA: We could also use Cloister to perhaps further estimate his total bonus if someone wants to approximate how the spell is put together, although I don't think it would count as strictly RAW. It would depend on knowing the size of Azure City.

[rodneyAnonymous]

All epic spells are custom spells. The superb dispelling that Xykon cast is a different spell than the SRD version, with the same name.

"This information is provided as an example for characters when they attempt to create and develop their own unique epic spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellDescriptions)"

[Quartz]

On the topic of Epic Spells, since Xykon casts Superb Dispelling in #653 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), and since per the SRD Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm), assuming Xykon rolls a 20 for the Spellcraft check his total modifier must be 39+? (For reference, Epic Mage Armor is 46 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/epicMageArmor.htm) and Cloister is a custom spell).

ETA: We could also use Cloister to perhaps further estimate his total bonus if someone wants to approximate how the spell is put together, although I don't think it would count as strictly RAW. It would depend on knowing the size of Azure City.

I did it upthread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18668607&postcount=71): assuming no magic items, if Xykon takes the Epic Skill Focus feat, he can cast Superb Dispelling at 29th level, adjusted by his Int bonus or penalty.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Haley's new dagger.

[Quild]

I did it upthread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18668607&postcount=71): assuming no magic items, if Xykon takes the Epic Skill Focus feat, he can cast Superb Dispelling at 29th level, adjusted by his Int bonus or penalty.

But if Rodney is right, maybe Xykon's Superb Dispelling isn't SRD Superb Dispelling.

It seems like Xykon took backlash damage, can't say for sure. Xykon has at least 21d12 HP which is an average 136HP. 10d6 would be more than a third of Xykon's HP.

Maybe Xykon's spell burns some XP instead of some backlash damages and has a lower bonus.

And the asumption that Xykon has no magic items that helps spellcraft modifier is quite a long shot since he crafts 8 hours a day, and went back to his "reserve dungeon" after his regeneration.

[Douglas]

It seems like Xykon took backlash damage, can't say for sure. Xykon has at least 21d12 HP which is an average 136HP. 10d6 would be more than a third of Xykon's HP.
Xykon gains 2 extra wound marks (on his torso and right arm) the instant he casts it, so that's definitely some backlash. 10d6 averages 35 which is about a quarter of 136, actually, less than a third.

I think it is reasonable to assume that epic spell names are unique - that any epic spell with the same name as an SRD one is that exact spell - until proven otherwise.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think it is reasonable to assume that epic spell names are unique - that any epic spell with the same name as an SRD one is that exact spell - until proven otherwise.

No, I think that assumption is unreasonable. The name of a spell has no mechanical implication. On the other hand, the epic rules explicitly say all epic spells are unique creations, and the ones listed are examples only. It is possible that "Xykon and his DM" exactly duplicated the listed example, but there is no way to know except Rich saying so, and I doubt he will.

[Douglas]

No, I think that assumption is unreasonable. The name of a spell has no mechanical implication. On the other hand, the epic rules explicitly say all epic spells are unique creations, and the ones listed are examples only. It is possible that "Xykon and his DM" exactly duplicated the listed example, but there is no way to know except Rich saying so, and I doubt he will.
What possible reason could someone, especially an author like Rich, have for taking the name of an example spell and sticking it on his own custom spell? That strikes me as something that would be intentionally obtuse, done for the sole reason of confusing the audience, when the default purpose of everything he puts in the comic is to communicate with the audience. The possibility that an epic spell with the same name as an SRD example might not actually be that example requires projecting motives and bad storytelling practice on The Giant that are unwarranted in the extreme, and the RAW basis for it is nitpicking about some overly literal interpretation of wording. I do not find that position justified in the slightest.

[Rakoa]

I'm with Douglas. After all, Wizard's can already research their own spells, right? What if this Fireball thing of V's isn't the SRD Fireball, but something else entirely? Every spell ever cast in the comic could be personally researched!

If the name is the same, I don't see any reason to doubt it, unless the effect is obviously different.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What possible reason could someone, especially an author like Rich, have for taking the name of an example spell and sticking it on his own custom spell?

Rich is on record saying that absolutely everything in the comic is now custom, precisely to prevent this situation. The default position is that every spell is homeruled until proven otherwise, and if rodney is correct that by RAW there is no such thing as a pre-defined epic spell, then more so the reason to not assume that Xykon developed the exact same epic dispel given as an example.

Grey Wolf

[Douglas]

Rich is on record saying that absolutely everything in the comic is now custom, precisely to prevent this situation. The default position is that every spell is homeruled until proven otherwise, and if rodney is correct that by RAW there is no such thing as a pre-defined epic spell, then more so the reason to not assume that Xykon developed the exact same epic dispel given as an example.

Grey Wolf
I believe that was just him getting tired of and preemptively heading off people saying "you got the rules wrong!" He still uses the game rules, he just doesn't really care if he misremembers or has to house rule a detail. If he refers to a game element specifically by name, the default assumption should be that it's the named game element exactly as published until evidence shows otherwise.

If we get a statement or in comic evidence that Xykon's Superb Dispelling substantially differs from the SRD one, we should accept that without fanfare or protest. Until and unless that happens, we should assume they're the same.

[Hecuba]

On the other hand, the epic rules explicitly say all epic spells are unique creations, and the ones listed are examples only.

I disagree with that interpretation. The ELH not only presents the possibility of using the presented spells off-the-rack, it recommends it as the easiest option.


EPIC SPELL DEVELOPMENT [...]
The easiest way to develop an epic spell is to use one already given in this book. The description of each of these unique spells gives the amount of gold, time, and experience points required to develop the spell. If you pay the spell's development cost, you develop (and thus know that spell). [...]
For information on developing an epic spells completely from scratch, see Developing Unique Epic Spells, below.
Emphasis added to highlight that customization and development from the seed structure is separate from "development" of "each of these unique spells."

Further, there is nothing indicating the given spells as "samples."
In fact, it is suggested that your character might develop those exact spells.


EPIC SPELLS
Several dozen epic spells developed by epic spellcasters are presented here. Your epic character can personally develop these spells if desired for his or her own arsenal of wondrous magic.

To make an analogy to normal spell casting: if we were in a situation where we knew that the custom spell creation rules were much more central and in frequent use, that would not of itself make Fireball not be Fireball.

Finally, Superb Dispelling matches very well what we see: a powerful dispel that specifically carries a damage backlash.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I'm with Douglas. After all, Wizard's can already research their own spells, right? What if this Fireball thing of V's isn't the SRD Fireball, but something else entirely? Every spell ever cast in the comic could be personally researched!

If the name is the same, I don't see any reason to doubt it, unless the effect is obviously different.

There is a fundamental difference between L0-L9 spells and epic spells: in the case of L0-L9 spells "it's the same as the SRD description" is the default assumption and "it's different than the SRD description" is merely possible, whereas in the case of epic spells "it's different than the SRD description" is the default assumption and "it's the same as the SRD description" is merely possible. There is a good reason to assume OOTS fireball is the same as the SRD fireball: although you can research custom spells, there are standard L0-L9 spells. There is a good reason not to assume OOTS "epic <whatever>" is the same as the SRD "epic <whatever>": there are no standard SRD epic spells, every single one must be researched custom.

Using one of the epic spell examples straight from the SRD is roughly equivalent to a house rule. There are no "pre-existing" epic spells; there isn't just a lack of rules saying there are, there are explicit rules saying there aren't. That is not an overly-literal interpretation, it's an important detail of how epic spellcasting works. "In-universe", each epic spell is a new creation developed by the spellcaster, even if "out-of-universe" the player copies a design someone else came up with using the epic spell creation rules (whether that someone else is their friend Joe, or a game designer that works for WotC.)

Is it possible that Rich just used one of the examples straight from the SRD? Sure. It's probable, even. The epic spellcasting rules even say that is an easy way to develop one. But changes to stats in this thread shouldn't be made on a "probably" basis.

[Kornaki]

You guys are wildly misinterpreting the 'this information is provided as an example'. Read the whole page


Each epic spell description follows the same format used for 0- to 9th-level spells. There are two additional entries for epic spells: Spellcraft DC and To Develop.

Spellcraft DC
This is the DC of the Spellcraft check required to cast the epic spell. When casting an epic spell, the character gains a +5 bonus on his or her Spellcraft check if the base seed of the epic spell is from the character’s arcane school specialty or primary psionic discipline. The character takes a -15 penalty if the epic spell seed is from his or her prohibited arcane school.

To Develop
The first part of this entry shows the resources in gold, time, and experience points a character must expend to develop the spell shown. If the character expends the resources, he or she develops the spell if he or she has access to all the seeds. Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature). The rest of the development entry details the seeds and factors used to create the epic spell. This information is provided as an example for characters when they attempt to create and develop their own unique epic spells.

The only information that is being provided for purely examplatory purposes is the development entry details. They aren't necessary in order for someone to know use the spell. For example, Superb Dispelling

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm


To Develop: 531,000 gp; 11 days; 21,240 XP. Seed: dispel (DC 19). Factors: additional +30 to dispel check (+30 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC).

For the purpose of using the spell, I never need to know that +30 to dispel check gives it a +30 DC, or that 1-action casting time gives it a +20 DC. Merely giving me the final DC and the casting time and maximum bonus (as are given elsewhere in the spell description) are sufficient for the purposes of using in game. The only part of the spell description that is 'an example only' is the part where it spells out the To Develop costs explicitly.

[Quild]

Xykon gains 2 extra wound marks (on his torso and right arm) the instant he casts it, so that's definitely some backlash. 10d6 averages 35 which is about a quarter of 136, actually, less than a third.

wow, who taught me maths? I seriously fumbled here. Dunno what I was thinking about. Maybe working for once.
Xykon has average of 142 HP (12+20*6,5) at least and indeed, 35 is a quarter of that. Guess I was thinking at d10 when I wrote it :smallconfused:.

But I wouldn't develop a combat spell with that much backlash damage (without any possible reduction I believe). Especially if this spell is useful only against something already powerful. Not everyone is me though.

The one on the right arm, I guess we would see it in panel 6 (of #653) if it was here before. The one on the torso is hidden otherwise.


Out of subject: I wonder if Xykon would have used Superb Dispelling earlier if V could have cast Time Stop and several buffs. I don't know if one of these buffs would have been a protection against dispelling. Maybe these runes werent much of a difference after all.

[Douglas]

Out of subject: I wonder if Xykon would have used Superb Dispelling earlier if V could have cast Time Stop and several buffs. I don't know if one of these buffs would have been a protection against dispelling. Maybe these runes werent much of a difference after all.
If we're talking a smart V using finely tuned tactics with the Splice power, I wrote a detailed account of how Xykon would have been utterly screwed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?225908-Redcloak&p=12398742&viewfull=1#post12398742) in that scenario quite a while ago. One of the buffs mentioned in that analysis, Empowered Spell Turning, is a highly general purpose protection that would have severely reduced the usefulness of Superb Dispelling, or even have made it backfire.

[Hecuba]

Is it possible that Rich just used one of the examples straight from the SRD? Sure. It's probable, even. The epic spellcasting rules even say that is an easy way to develop one. But changes to stats in this thread shouldn't be made on a "probably" basis.

"A is A" rises above the level of "probably" to me. We know that there are truly custom epic spells in use (cf. Cloister), but the spell in question was not named Epic Dispel or Xykon's Moderately Superior Dispelling. It was given the exact name of a something that does exist, and we see no indication that it does not match the effects of what it says it is.

To me, this would seem to be an example of taking the comic at its word when it provides us explicit information. That has been a long standing operating standard for this thread.

[D.One]

There is a fundamental difference between L0-L9 spells and epic spells: in the case of L0-L9 spells "it's the same as the SRD description" is the default assumption and "it's different than the SRD description" is merely possible, whereas in the case of epic spells "it's different than the SRD description" is the default assumption and "it's the same as the SRD description" is merely possible.

In fact, such difference is not stated. Just like the SRD 0-9th level spells are merely examples and a DM could just say "this one doesn't exist, that one too, and there are those other ones I created just for this campaign", the epic SRD spells can be interpreted as, well, SRD spells, official ones.

Yes, Rich does use lots of custom rules, because it's a comic strip, not a real game. Even if it was a game, he might use some custom rules.

Let's try to look at this debate with other eyes, however. We need to set parameters to go on with our Geekery analysis. If we assume that "If it could be homebrewed, it is.", we would have to accept that even the classes, the races, the skills, etc could be homebrewed ones, and almost everything we "nailed down" should come with a "possibly" in front of it.
As in "Vaarsuvius, possibly Elf" (because fiction has dozens of versions for elves. Who is to say that he is using exactly the SRD one?).

So, I believe that assuming an Epic SRD Spell to be the SRD version until proven otherwise is a fairly reasonable compromise.

[Quild]

Life tip:
"If your only chance of living through something is if your enemy isn't a sorcerer, or doesn't have a spare dagger or can't jump an eleven-foot crevasse, then you assume your enemy isn't a sorcerer, or doesn't have a spare dagger, or can't jump an eleven-foot crevasse."
Issola - Steven Brust

So ok, let's assume that!

Anyway even if Xykon's Superb Dispelling is the SRD one, we then have to assume he doesn't have magic items that helps him to craft spells in order to have any information about Xykon's level.


On another hand, on what was focused the scrying sensor in #698? Could it indicate that Cloister had faded off? Seems quite early so I guess not. However the sending sent to Haley right before they found the gate should indicate this, right?

[rodneyAnonymous]

We know that there are truly custom epic spells in use (cf. Cloister), but the spell in question was not named Epic Dispel or Xykon's Moderately Superior Dispelling.

We are currently talking about the DC of the SRD superb dispelling, but the DC of the SRD spell epic mage armor was also mentioned in the first relevant post. That is a much more generic spell name. If we were talking about epic mage armor instead, does that change the argument? Why?

[Hecuba]

We are currently talking about the DC of the SRD superb dispelling, but the DC of the SRD spell epic mage armor was also mentioned in the first relevant post. That is a much more generic spell name. If we were talking about epic mage armor instead, does that change the argument? Why?

No, I don't think it does.
My general position is that if the four criteria below are met, we should take the comic at its word.

The comic references a mechanic by name "A"
There exists a published 1st-party D&D 3.5 element called "A"
Comic "A" and 3.5 "A" are not incompatible in effect
The comic gives no indication that "A" is not "A"*


I also don't hold that the given epic spells are any less authoritative as published 1st party material simply because you are encouraged to use them as examples for further development -- especially when you are explicitly encouraged several times to make use of them exactly as printed.

A counter-question for you:
Consider the following hypothetical situation:
The 0-9th original spell research rules were far more central, to the extent that DMs were encouraged to have players design one every other level
You were directed to use the power level of specific existing spells as guidelines for a given spell level and type (ex. 3rd level blasting spells should use fireball as an example)

Would you then stop presuming that the spell V keeps casting and calling Fireball is in fact SRD Fireball?


*For items that does not meet this criteria, cf. Miko the Samurai or comic 370's "forcecage!" sound effect.

[rodneyAnonymous]

A counter-question for you...

I think that is a false analogy, because players are more than "encouraged" to design epic spells, it is mandatory. Even if the player copies the design, the character researches a new spell, it is original for all intents and purposes. There are other ways a character can learn L0-L9 spells besides researching them. There are no other ways to learn epic spells.

[Douglas]

I think that is a false analogy, because players are more than "encouraged" to design epic spells, it is mandatory. Even if the player copies the design, the character researches a new spell, it is original for all intents and purposes. There are other ways a character can learn L0-L9 spells besides researching them. There are no other ways to learn epic spells.
The character doing research is mandatory. The player going through any sort of design process is not, and if I ever had a player design his own epic spell and give it the name of an SRD example without actually being that example, I would insist he change its name (at the very least adding the character's name in front) to avoid confusion, and I expect the vast majority of DMs would do the same. The reasons for insisting on that are quite a bit stronger for Rich as a widely read author than for any typical DM who only needs his own group to understand the difference.

Nitpicking about "mandatory research" aside, one of the core principles of this thread is that we take the comic at its word until proven otherwise. Saying "but maybe when the comic says Superb Dispelling it doesn't mean the version printed" goes against that. Until we have actual evidence, not just speculation, that the comic and SRD spells are different, they should be assumed to be the same because that's what taking the comic at its word implies.

[D.One]

[...] one of the core principles of this thread is that we take the comic at its word until proven otherwise. Saying "but maybe when the comic says Superb Dispelling it doesn't mean the version printed" goes against that. Until we have actual evidence, not just speculation, that the comic and SRD spells are different, they should be assumed to be the same because that's what taking the comic at its word implies.

Agreed. After all:


Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

That's the basic assumption here, IMHO. The comic says the truth, unless we have a strong reason to think otherwise. (Not a speculation like "What if it wasn't?")

[Chronos]

As I understand it, all level 0-9 wizard spells are custom spells, in the sense that some wizard, somewhen, developed it from scratch. Sometimes, this is recognized in being named after a particular wizard, like Mordenkainen or Bigby. In other cases, like Fireball, the original discoverer is so far back in history that her name has been lost.

But the difference is, with all of those spells, once they're discovered by one caster, they can be easily transferred to other wizards. If a wizard wants a 3rd-level blasty fiery spell, she can research her own, which could have absolutely any parameters, or she can borrow another wizard's spellbook and just copy down Fireball, and get a Fireball exactly like everyone else's. And the latter is much easier, so that's what most wizards do.

This is not true with epic spells. If someone else already has an epic dispelling spell, and you want one, too, you can't just borrow it from their spellbook. You have to research it from scratch yourself, and since you're doing so, there's no reason to assume that it's going to come out exactly the same as that other wizard's. Even if you're trying for basically the same thing, it's probably going to come out different in some way, and you're probably not trying for exactly the same thing in the first place. Even if Xykon wanted something with a higher level cap on the dispel check, and wanted backlash damage as a mitigating factor, he'd be foolish to choose the same amounts of both as in the sample. I don't think anyone thinks Xykon is anywhere near level 40, so why would he make that the cap? He might make the cap two or three levels higher than his level, so it'll continue to scale as he levels up, but 7 or 13 or 19 levels higher? Why would he do that? And having set that value at wherever he wants, he'd then choose the amount of backlash damage based on what his Spellcraft modifier is and just how much mitigation he'd need.

[Quild]

The only information that we would have by stating that Xykon's Superb Dispelling is the SRD one is that Xykon is reckless enough to use a dispell that does important backlash damage while overkilling the required DC.

It wouldn't tell us anything about his level since we would have to make other asumptions in order to suppose a minimum level of Xykon. The asumption that he has no item that helps him to craft is quite a stretch.

So I don't see how it matters for now who's wrong or right.

[Quartz]

This is not true with epic spells. If someone else already has an epic dispelling spell, and you want one, too, you can't just borrow it from their spellbook. You have to research it from scratch yourself.

The first part is correct; the latter not. Epic spells can be scribed into stone or similar material and copied from there. See ELH p91.


Epic spells inscribed on stone tablets were usually developed by spellcasters deep in the mists of history, although a new epic spell could also be developed this way if the creator is willing to share the discovery. Epic spells may only be inscribed on stone tablets or other substances of equal or greater hardness. Once a spell is so inscribed another epic spellcaster can learn it without going through the process of development. Once an inscribed epic spell is learned by another epic spellcaster in this fashion, the tablet upon which it is inscribed is destroyed and cannot be mended.

[Peelee]

As I understand it, all level 0-9 wizard spells are custom spells, in the sense that some wizard, somewhen, developed it from scratch. Sometimes, this is recognized in being named after a particular wizard, like Mordenkainen or Bigby. In other cases, like Fireball, the original discoverer is so far back in history that her name has been lost.

Eh, I'd argue that wizard spells not named for a specific wizard originated as sorcerer spells and wizards researched how to cast it for themselves. They'd exist without any wizardic intervention, and thus were never custom spells.

This argument stems from my desire to keep things simple.

[b_jonas]

Surely at least in OotS epic spells can somehow be learnt, because Xykon could learn the Cloister epic spell that Dorukan has researched.

[Boost]

RE: Everyone who says Epic spells must be original creations instead of being copied directly from the spells in the ELH:

How do you explain monsters with Epic Spell-like Abilities?

If monsters can have Epic Mage Armor or Superb Dispelling as an innate ability, and it functions exactly the same as the spell listed in the book, then there IS a "standard" form of that spell in existence, just like there's a standard form of Fireball.

[rodneyAnonymous]

How do you explain monsters with Epic Spell-like Abilities?

I'm not sure there is such a thing.

[Douglas]

I'm not sure there is such a thing.
See Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva), Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane), Xixecal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#xixecal), Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm), Uvuudaum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/uvuudaum.htm), and Vemiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm).

[rodneyAnonymous]

Ok. What I am saying, though, is that even if the development details are copied from the ELH, an epic spell is a unique creation in that universe.