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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, Chrismith, and RMS Oceanic. I will update these posts as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS and the other characters.

    The aim of this thread is that we give D&D statistics for the characters in the comic based on the events and statements made in the comic, plus statements by The Giant in the forum and his books. For this purpose, we assume that the comic strictly follows the 3.5E D&D rules. We are aware that The Giant has stated that he doesn't always follow the rules, because his goal is to write a story and not to write session reports from a D&D campaign. Nevertheless, in this thread we assume the rules are being followed anyway, and see what stats, feats, and skills could explain what happens. Essentially, that means we're taking the rules side of the comic more seriously than its author does; if you like, you can assume a little footnote on every factoid of this thread that says "* or The Giant used a houserule". Why? Well, because it's Geekery. If Star Trek fans can do it, then so can we

    Frequently Asked Questions
    Spoiler
    Show

    Q: Does The Giant check this thread?
    Yes, but only really for spell lists.

    Q: Which source books are used in the comic?
    • Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
    • Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)
    • Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
    • Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
    • Complete Warrior (hexblade)
    • Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
    • Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)
    • Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
    • Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)
    • Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
    • Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
    • Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)
    • Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
    • uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)


    Q: In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?
    Level
    9 12 12 12 12 12 12
    10 124 125 124 124 124 124
    11 251 ??? 201 ??? ??? 186
    12 ??? 249 ??? ??? 477 220
    13 ???, 665 ??? 556 392 511 397
    14 485, 862 ??? 859 647 ??? 627
    15 - 860 - 860 615 716
    16 - - - - 990 935

    Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
    (1) All named members of the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Order of the Scribble, and the Vector Legion.
    (2) Any frequently occurring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
    (3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.
    This means that Daigo and Bandana would be next in line, but we don't have a lot of material on either character.

    Q: Which material is covered by this thread?
    All comics on the web and in print (including SSDT, Gygax magazine, and the Kickstarter bonus stories), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or the fundraiser.
    Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics.

    Q: I've heard there was a fight over some topic years ago, and now we're not allowed to discuss it any more. Is that the case?
    No; this thread does not have a banned topic list (of course, the forum as a whole has one; please see the board rules for details). Also see the thread rules by Mark Hall.

    Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
    Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

    Q: If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and his victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?
    Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

    Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?
    Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.

    Q: What does "Core" mean?
    The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM). This is an official term defined by WOTC, who put the word "Core" in big letters on the cover of these three books. No other books are Core, and there is no such thing as "partially Core", "almost Core", or "semi-Core" - every book is either Core or non-Core. Note that both the OOTS comic and this thread contain numerous non-Core elements.

    Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
    Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

    Q: A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
    No. As seen in a thousand forum threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

    Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
    No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

    Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
    We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

    Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
    We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2015-08-07 at 09:59 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Roy Greenhilt
    Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14 (forum).
    Str 24+ (base strength 20, forum, plus magic belt).
    Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
    Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
    Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
    Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan).
    Age: 29.
    Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Endurance (to sleep in armor without getting fatigued), Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Spellsplinter Maneuver, Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword.
    Skills: Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low.
    Items: Magical armor, Bag of Tricks, club, newspaper, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword, formal suit, shillelagh oil, potion of delay poison, non-magical boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant, runestone.

    Belkar Bitterleaf aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper
    Chaotic Evil, Halfling male Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (forum), total level 16 (forum).
    Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
    Dex 13+ (required for Spring Attack).
    Int <10 (OOPC).
    Wis 8-9 (ability score penalty, and can use a third-level scroll when buffed).
    Cha <10 (without any charisma).
    Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago).
    Feats: Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Assault, Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Improved Sunder, Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Pounce; no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
    Skills: Balance 5+, Climb, Craft: Trapmaking, Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide, Jump, Move Silently 2+, Profession: gourmet chef 4, Sense Motive 0, Speak Language: Halfling (racial), Spellcraft, Spot 0, Survival 0, Use Magic Device (SSDT).
    Abilities: Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy, favored enemy: human (forum) and undead, scent.
    Items: Unholy symbol, red chalk, cloak, Ring of Jumping +20, stilts, Sapphire guard disguise, quill, string, chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient, clothespin, bedroll, mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), 18 pounds of salt (GYG), book: Dune, bucket and spade, bag of holding full of money, +5 Dagger of Collision, +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil, Feather Fall item. Dex 15+, or wears light or no armor (to use two-weapon pounce).

    Mr. Scruffy
    True Neutral (forum), Cat male, animal companion.
    Str 6 (animal companion).
    Dex 18 (animal companion).
    Con 10 (racial).
    Int 2 (racial).
    Wis 12 (racial).
    Cha 7 (racial).
    Age: 7 (WXP).
    Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
    Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
    Abilities: Racial abilities; animal companion abilities; 3 tricks, including attack and come.
    Items: String.

    Durkon Allotrope Thundershield, pseudonym
    Lawful Evil, Dwarf vampire male Cleric of Hel 14 (based on spells cast in a day).
    Str 20-25 (can carry Vaarsuvius, can't carry Roy; +6 as vampire).
    Dex <14 (dex penalty, SSDT; +4 as vampire).
    Con n/a (undead).
    Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
    Wis 19-25 (required for 7th level spells, and to lose his best 7th level spell to Enervation; +2 as vampire).
    Cha <14 (low modifier, see also DCF; +4 as vampire).
    Age: 55+.
    Feats: Extend Spell, Extra Turning; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
    Skills: Concentration 2+ (forum), Knowledge: Religion not maxed, Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0, Speak Language: Dwarven (racial) and Giant (SSDT), Spellcraft, Spot 0.
    Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
    Items: Candles, bedroll, non-magical full plate armor, deck of cards, holy symbol, Amulet of Natural Armor, heirloom light steel shield and warhammer, parcheesi board, spyglass, religious vestments, scroll of Sending, belt pouch, Bleedingham papers, flask of liquor, 10,000+ gp of diamond dust, healing potions.
    Before becoming a vampire, Durkon was Lawful Good, had Con ~12 (racial), the ability Turn Undead, the Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite), and the spells Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace, Control Winds, Cure Itchy Wounds, Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain, Heathen Smiting, Mass Death Ward with backdoor, Thor's Lightning, and Tumor.

    Elan
    Chaotic Good, Human male Bard 14+ (required to retrain to Cure Critical Wounds) / Dashing Swordsman 1+, total level 16 (forum).
    Str 10-11 (KS:H&J, and the same as Nale, forum).
    Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently).
    Con same as Nale.
    Int 4-10 (too low to cast cantrips, but higher than Thog.
    Wis <10 (not even a smidgen).
    Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13, +2 from belt).
    Age: 22+ (WXP).
    Feats: Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack, Still Spell.
    Skills: Craft: Shiv 0, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3, Perform: riddles 2+ (BRITF), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom), Perform: kazoo, Ride 2+, Spot 0, Spellcraft 2+, Tumble.
    Abilities: Bard class abilities, charismatic strike, dramatic instincts, glass damage immunity.
    Items: Bedroll, Banjo, ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), dice, Boots of Elvenkind, kazoo, jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel, yoyo, dashing outfit, toothbrush, lute, evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), equipment lists (GYG), Belt of Charisma +2, treasure chest, drawing, The Stick the Order was named after, letter, Chaos Sabre, Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds; no armor. Elan still has his old equipment (forum).
    Spells: Animate Rope, Cure Critical Wounds, Disguise Self, Greater Dispel Magic, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mending, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition; no Identify, nor Break Enchantment.

    Haley Starshine aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale
    Chaotic Good, Human female Rogue 16 (forum).
    Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart, but can't carry Roy).
    Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
    Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius).
    Int 12+ (received bonus languages).
    Cha 12-19 (with any charisma; and with maxed out Bluff, for Hide to be her best skill, her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
    Age: About 25 (forum; was 24 here, and that was over a year ago).
    Feats: Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Shot.
    Skills: Appraise, Bluff 18+ (maxed out), Disable Device, Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Planes 0, Knowledge: Religion low (forum), Open Lock 15, Ride 0, Search not maxed, Sense Motive 2+, Spellcraft 9+, Spot 0, Tumble, Use Magic Device 7+, Use Rope 8.
    Abilities: Rogue class abilities; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat (based on feat count for her level).
    Items: Two gemstones, 8 Bags of Holding, towel, hair dryer, rope, +5 Air Freshener of Pineness, a lot of clothes, bedroll, +5 Icy Burst Longbow, bag of copper pieces (SSDT), magic leather armor, dyed Boots of Speed (forum), trowel, metal detector, Bleedingham papers, 4+ quivers of green arrows including silver and cold iron, three potions (since Belkar took one), thief's tools, Z's wands, Wand of Obscuring Mist, Magic Missile, Fly, and four others, adamantine dagger.

    Vaarsuvius
    True Neutral (forum), Elf ambiguously gendered Wizard: Evoker (DCF) 16 (forum).
    Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk, and strength penalty).
    Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
    Con 8-12 (to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon; also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley).
    Int 24 (forum).
    Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
    Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost, and without any charisma).
    Age: 131+ (WXP).
    Feats: Alertness, Empower Spell, Extend Spell (SSDT), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat); no Silent Spell (forum), nor Still Spell.
    Skills: Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate, Craft: Alchemy, Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Engineering, Knowledge: Religion not high (forum), Ride 0, Spot 0, Search 0, Speak Language: Elven (racial), raven, not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device 2+.
    Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing, share spells with familiar, scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration and Necromancy (forum; also by elimination).
    Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th level spells with a base int of 18 at level 11), doily, Ring of Wizardry III or IV, two small gemstones, many scrolls and spellbooks, Finding Plot Holes for Dummies, twelve more books, two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT), jar of diamond dust, Bleedingham papers, defensive potions, Tarquin's whip.
    Spells: Arcane Eye, Banishment, Bull's Strength, Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand, Bugsby's Clenched Fist, Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger, Bugsby's Grasping Hand, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Detect Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fire Trap, Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage, Fly, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility (SSDT), Gust of Wind, Haste, Heroism, Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Locate Creature, Magic Missile, Mass Bear's Endurance. Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Enlarge Person, Overland Flight usable on others, Owl's Wisdom, Passwall, Polymorph, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Prestidigitation, Prismatic Spray, Protection from Arrows, Ray of Frost, Resilient Sphere, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Sending, Shadow Conjuration (to cast Evan's Tentacles, forum), Silent Image, Sleep, Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, Suggestion, Summon Plot Hole (SWMU), True Seeing, Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying, Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger, Vampiric Touch, Veil, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force, unspecified polymorph spell, unspecified sonic spell.

    Blackwing (Common name)
    Raven male, familiar.
    Str 1 (racial).
    Dex 15 (racial).
    Con 10 (racial).
    Int 13 (familiar).
    Wis 14 (racial).
    Cha 6 (racial).
    Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
    Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
    Abilities: Racial abilities; familiar abilities.
    Items: Bauble, sombrero, fake beard and mustache, wand, bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2016-02-17 at 04:08 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Team Evil

    Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
    Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+
    Con n/a (undead).
    Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
    Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
    Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th level spells in one combat, SOD).
    Age: 111+ (WXP).
    Feats: Maximize Spell, Still Spell or Sudden Still, Epic Spellcasting, unspecified craft feat.
    Skills: Bluff, Concentration (required to cast while grappled), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+, Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
    Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
    Items: Soul gem (SOD), Ring of Positive Plane Protection (SOD), Serini's diary, Widescreen crystal ball, Teevo, crown that radiates evil, Dorukan's headband, unspecified item that gives fire immunity, Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus, bunch of scrolls.
    Spells: Animate Dead, Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Cloister, Cloudkill, Contingency, Energy Drain, Epic Mage Armor, Finger of Death, Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Greater Teleport, Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Mass Hold Person, Meteor Swarm, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Overland Flight, Ray of Frost, Shatter, Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin, Superb Dispelling, Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Pain, Teleport, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, unspecified fire spell, unspecified planar travel spell, unspecified summoning spell, unspecified wall-breaking spell.

    Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
    Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (required to cast 9th level spells).
    Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class).
    Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead four times per day).
    Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
    Feats: Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell.
    Skills: Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry, Speak Language: Goblin (racial), Spellcraft; no Draconic (NCPB).
    Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead, Command Undead, Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
    Items: Black armor (SOD), The Crimson Mantle, backup unholy symbol, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II, eye patch, spyglass, Xykon's Phylactery, Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual, Ring of protection from level drain
    Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening.

    Tsukiko (deceased)
    Neutral Evil (forum), Human female, Wizard: Necromancer (forum) 3+ / Cleric 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge 6+, and two more levels of Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast Create Undead).
    Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead as a wizard).
    Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike as a cleric).
    Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell.
    Skills: Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge).
    Abilities: Rebuke Undead, barred school (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), item that boosts caster level (to teleport six wights), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike), Xykon plushie, Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill.
    Spells: Standard cleric list, plus wizard spells Cold Orb, Create Undead, Dominate Person, Electric Orb, Fire Orb, Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Lesser Acid Orb, Lightning Bolt, Mind Fog, Shout, Teleport, Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (forum).

    Monster In The Darkness
    Please see this thread for details.



    The Linear Guild

    Nale (deceased)
    Lawful Evil, Human male, Fighter / Rogue 2+ (required for Evasion) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door); total level 15 (Hit by Holy Word).
    Str 10-11 (same as Elan, forum).
    Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
    Con same as Elan.
    Int 13+ (required for Combat Expertise).
    Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending).
    Age: 22+ (same as Elan).
    Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm.
    Skills: Bluff.
    Items: Longsword, business cards, wand of Enervation, Elixirs of Negative Energy Protection.
    Spells: Charm Person, Dimension Door, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility, Prestidigitation, Suggestion.

    Hilgya Firehelm
    Non-lawful (worships the god of chaos) Evil (DCF), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki 7+ (required to cast Restoration).
    Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 14+ (required to cast Restoration).
    Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
    Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, Fire domain.
    Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield, holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability).

    Leeky Windstaff
    Neutral Evil, Gnome male, Druid 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
    Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm).
    Feats: Leadership.
    Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion: hawk "Kitty" (deceased).

    Pompey
    Neutral Evil, Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope).
    Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd level spells per day).
    Age: 44+.
    Feats: Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell.
    Skills: Knowledge: Arcana.
    Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment.
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
    Spells: Animate Rope, Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, five unspecified touch-range buff spells.

    Sabine
    Evil, Succubus female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 3+ (at least as high as her personal rival Haley).
    Str 16+ (can carry Durkon).
    Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
    Int 9+ (higher than Thog, lower than Nale, forum).
    Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
    Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
    Age: 2000+ (NCPB).
    Abilities: Flight, change shape, energy drain, charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects, summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good, darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, immune to fatigue.
    Items: Cellphone

    Thog
    Non-lawful (required for rage) Evil, Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 / Barbarian 9+ (required to have 3 attacks a round).
    Str 22+ (to break down an iron door while raging).
    Int <8 (racial, dump stat).
    Wis <10 (abysmal will save).
    Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Age: 17+ (WXP).
    Feats: Power Attack.
    Skills: Jump.
    Abilities: Dungeoncrasher (forum), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

    Yikyik (deceased)
    Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Feats: Combat Reflexes, Track (ranger bonus feat).
    Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
    Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
    Items: Dagger.

    Yokyok (deceased)
    Kobold male.
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
    Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
    Items: Rapier.

    Yukyuk (deceased)
    Kobold male, Ranger 4+ (required for an animal companion) / Rogue.
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Abilities: Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion: riding dog "Sir Scraggly".
    Feats: Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
    Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
    Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
    Items: Two Crossbows of Quick Loading.

    Zz'dtri (deceased)
    Neutral Evil (forum), Drow male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) 15 (deafened by Holy Word).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift).
    Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (forum), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance, Empower Spell.
    Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language.
    Abilities: Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, +4 from feats and an item); drow racial abilities; barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance.
    Spells: Baleful Polymorph, Break Enchantment: short version, Dimension Door, Disguise Self, Flesh to Stone, Fly: 3.0 version, Greater Dispel Magic, Gust of Wind, Locate Object, Magic Circle Against Evil, Phantasmal Killer, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Protection from Energy, Scrying, Shield, Teleport, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Ice, unspecified lightning spell.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2016-02-01 at 04:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    The Sapphire Guard

    Hinjo
    Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin 11-12 (three attacks per round, but was lower level than Roy during the battle at Azure City, and hasn't leveled up since).
    Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
    Age: 26+ (WXP).
    Abilities: Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience, paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent".
    Items: Cold-iron katana, silvered katana; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

    Lien
    Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin 12+ (higher level than Hinjo).
    Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
    Int 10+ (good, not dumb).
    Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
    Age: 29+ (three years older than Hinjo, DSTP).
    Feats: Cleave, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Longspear.
    Abilities: Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor".
    Items: Longspear; magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); ring of waterbreathing (DSTP).

    Miko Miyazaki (deceased)
    Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ / Fallen Paladin 10-14 (three main-hand attacks per round, higher level than Hinjo, and three smites per day, forum).
    Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
    Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting).
    Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight).
    Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands).
    Age: 28+ (WXP).
    Feats: Cleave, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
    Skills: Knowledge: the Planes, Knowledge: What The Hell She's Talking About 0, Spellcraft 0, Survival 1.
    Abilities: Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker".
    Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi.

    O-Chul
    Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter / Paladin 3+ (has Aura of Courage), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo).
    Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius).
    Con ~25 (WXP).
    Cha <10 (dump stat).
    Age: 29+ (fighter for twelve years).
    Skills: Bluff 0, Diplomacy 2+ (forum), Spellcraft, Swim.

    Shojo (deceased)
    Chaotic Good, Human male, Aristocrat 14.
    Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
    Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
    Age: 72+ (WXP).
    Feats: Improved Paranoia.
    Skills: Bluff, Perform (puppetry).



    The Vector Legion

    Tarquin
    Lawful Evil, Human male, level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word).
    Str 16+ (can carry Nale).
    Dex, Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
    Int, Wis, Cha ~11 (no evidence, age).
    Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years).
    Feats: Stunning Fist.
    Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot.
    Abilities: Evasion.
    Items: Dagger, helmet, two Rings of Regeneration, Ring of True Seeing, Glamered Armor, mask that says "Nope" on it, Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment.

    Soul Muncher
    Intelligent axe.

    Jacinda
    Catfolk female.
    Items: Dagger.

    Kilkil
    Lawful Neutral (forum), Winged Kobold male, level 6-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word).
    Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Items: Glasses.
    Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
    Abilities: Kobold racial abilities, Flight.

    Laurin Shattersmith
    Evil (forum), Human female, Psion 13+ (to be level drained and still manifest Disintegrate).
    Str, Dex, Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
    Int 16+ (required to manifest Disintegrate).
    Wis, Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
    Age: 58+ (forum).
    Items: Headband, two Ioun Stones.
    Powers: Body Adjustment, Clairvoyant Sense, Control Body, Dimension Door, Disintegrate, Dispel Psionics, Energy Adaptation, Mental Disruption, Mind Probe, Telekinetic Force, Wormhole, unspecified attack power.

    Malack (deceased), pseudonym
    Lawful Evil (forum), Lizardfolk male vampire, Cleric of Nergal 12 (required for Craft Staff, but no higher spells, forum).
    Str ~18 (no evidence, racial).
    Con n/a (undead).
    Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial).
    Int ~13 (no evidence, racial, age).
    Wis 20+ (from spells per day, forum).
    Cha ~17 (no evidence, racial, age).
    Age: 200+.
    Feats: Craft Staff, Quicken Spell; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
    Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
    Abilities: Vampire abilities, Death and Destruction domains (forum).
    Items: Holy Symbol.
    Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Protection from Daylight.

    Miron Shewdanker
    Evil (forum), Human male, Wizard 15+ or Sorcerer 16+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting).
    Str, Dex ~9 (no evidence, age).
    Con 6+ (forum).
    Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
    Int or Cha 18+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting, depending on his class).
    Age: 38+ (forum).
    Spells: Baleful Polymorph, Contingency, Greater Dispel Magic, Horrid Wilting, Teleport, unspecified defensive spell.

    ???
    We don't seem to know anything yet about the sixth member of the Vector Legion.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2016-02-01 at 04:09 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    The Order of the Scribble

    Soon Kim (deceased)
    Lawful Good, Human male Sacred Watcher, Paladin 21+ (Low Epic).
    Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
    Con n/a (Deathless).
    Cha ~14 (no evidence, Sacred Watcher).
    Abilities: Flight, Paladin class abilities, Sacred Watcher abilities, Deathless abilities.
    Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana.
    Items: Enchanted Armor, Katana.

    Dorukan (deceased, SOD)
    Neutral Good (forum), Human male, Wizard 21+.
    Str/Dex/Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
    Int 19+ (required to cast Gate, SOD).
    Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Craft Wondrous Item, Epic Spellcasting.
    Skills: Knowledge: Arcana 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (both required for Epic Spellcasting).
    Spells: Arcane Half of the Mystic Gate ritual, Cloister, Gate (SOD), Meteor Swarm (SOD), Monster Ward, Prismatic Spray (SOD), Pure Heart Ward, Seal Rift, Scrying (SOD), Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell (SOD), unspecified summoning spell.

    Girard Draketooth (deceased)
    Chaotic Neutral (forum), Black dragon-blooded human male, Ranger 2 / Sorcerer 19+ (low epic, forum).
    Cha 19+ (required to cast Microcosm).
    Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, no Epic Spellcasting (forum).
    Spells: Microcosm, Recorded Message Trap, unspecified illusion spell.

    Kraagor (deceased)
    Non-lawful, Dwarf male, Barbarian.
    Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
    Items: Axe.

    Lirian (deceased, SOD)
    Neutral Good (forum), Elf female, Druid 21+ (Low Epic, forum).
    Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
    Wis 19+ (required to cast Shapechange, SOD).
    Skills: Speak Language: Druidic (class) and Elven (racial).
    Spells: Standard druid list, plus Divine Half of the Mystic Gate ritual, Guardian Virus (SOD).

    Serini Toormuck
    Halfling female, Rogue 21+ (Low Epic).
    Str ~5 (no evidence, racial, age).
    Dex ~9 (no evidence, racial, age).
    Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
    Int/Wis/Cha ~12 (No evidence, age).
    Items: Shortbow.



    Family and other characters

    Celia
    Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt).
    Str 12+ (required to pull the cart).
    Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd level spells in a day).
    Age: 22+ (WXP).
    Abilities: Flight, cast sorcerer spells, shoot lightning out of her fingers (all racial abilities).
    Skills: Profession: Lawyer, Spellcraft.
    Items: Cell phone, 'feeblemind causing' blue dress, black eyeliner pencil, bedroll.
    Spells: Alter Self, Lightning Bolt, Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist, no necromancy spells.

    Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
    Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost, Wizard: Illusionist 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
    Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
    Con n/a (undead).
    Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image).
    Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
    Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost).
    Age: 81+ (WXP).
    Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
    Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
    Spells: Birth Control Spell (SOD), Conjure Chair (OOPC), Detect Scrying, Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere, Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image, Summon Boot, Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell.

    Ian Starshine, aka Red
    Chaotic Neutral (forum), Human male, Rogue.
    Str, Con ~7 (No evidence, age)
    Int, Wis, Cha ~12 (No evidence, age).
    Age: 60+.
    Skills: Bluff, Knowledge (Local), Move Silently, Not Dying, Open Lock.
    Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
    Items: Signed amnesty papers, Elan's plan to take down Tarquin, Dagger.

    Julia Greenhilt
    True Neutral, Human female, Wizard 3.
    Int 15+ (required to cast Sending from a scroll).
    Age: 17+ (five years younger than Nale).
    Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
    Spells: Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Mask Scent.

    Samantha (deceased)
    Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day).
    Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning, but has no bonus spells at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's.
    Age: 18.
    Feats: Maximize Spell, no Silent Spell, nor Still Spell.
    Spells: Chain Lightning, Fireball, Fly, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Protection From Arrows.

    Qarr
    Lawful Evil, Imp male, Sorcerer 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster, and to get only two Scorching Rays).
    Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
    Int 12+ (based on Zz'dtri's level).
    Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
    Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster).
    Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
    Abilities: Flight, poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self, suggestion, commune, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver, darkvision, fast healing, poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects, plane shift, summon devil (all racial abilities).
    Spells: Charm Monster, Extraplanar Phone Connection, Lesser Telepathic Bond, Lightning Bolt, Scorching Ray.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2016-02-01 at 04:10 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Happy new year all, and best wishes for 1185!

    I would like to start the new year with a new thread, because certain sections of this thread haven't been updated in a long time. As we have seen, my colleague RMS Oceanic hasn't posted for some time, although he has told me that he intends to return in the future. In the meantime, I would like to keep the thread updated in his absence. As Rich has repeatedly stated that he is focusing more on characterization and less on rules minutiae, the workload should be easily manageable for one person.

    Now I haven't kept a log of changes suggested in all previous posts; I'll read back on thread twelve in the upcoming weeks, but feel free to post again about anything you believe should be added or modified. The main point of contention has been Tarquin, so I have started by trimming his statblock; of course, items from his statblock may be placed back as consensus develops.

    So with no further ado, I present thread thirteen!
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    I'm glad we have a new thread; maybe now we can finally put some of those old debates to rest. Some of the pictures need to be updated, for some reason they aren't displaying properly. Are we going to take this opportunity to add any new characters to the list?


    Peelee’s Lotsey

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    I'm glad we have a new thread; maybe now we can finally put some of those old debates to rest. Some of the pictures need to be updated, for some reason they aren't displaying properly. Are we going to take this opportunity to add any new characters to the list?
    (1) apparently the account that hosted them has disappeared; does anyone have a new URL?
    (2) I'd be happy to discuss that, who did you have in mind?
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    (1) apparently the account that hosted them has disappeared; does anyone have a new URL?
    (2) I'd be happy to discuss that, who did you have in mind?
    I know we had a recent request to add Bandana. I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to add the Thieves Guild in, as they have appeared again.


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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    I love the title.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.


    Check this game out! Or at least give it a thumbs up.
    Why "because the plot said so" is not a good answer.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    The MitD thread link should probably be updated to this one:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800

    Yours,

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
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    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    I think adding Bandana at this point may be a bit premature. As of now, there are quite a few other characters (Daigo, for instance) who have considerably more appearances but no stats listed here.

    In general, unless characters belong to a major established group, I tend to be against adding them unless they so many appearances that not including them would be awkward, or unless they have a ton of information we can list about them. The Thieves' Guild doesn't quite make the cut for me, though others may differ with me on that point.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Just to bring this point I proposed in the last thread.

    I believe I have sufficient enough evidence to show that O-Chul is 16+. Apologies if it has been stated before, but based on this scene he does 4 attacks in a row before Xykon attacks him with the lightning, but after his meteor swarm. This shows evidence of him being 16+, since Fighters and Paladins share the same Attack Bonus each level, and the earliest he could get 4 attacks would be level 16.

    Unless I am forgetting rules with a two handed/improvised weapon for multiple attacks, it seems the only way he could do this was if he was 16+. since the two panels consists of 4 different attacks.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Could be. Could also be:
    1. drop holy symbol, charge goblin, get fireballed by X
    2. move back to holysymbol and make one attack, X does something off panel
    3. Full attack, X lightning bolts.

    Or not.

    edit: infact, as it's a Maximized lightning bolt it would take X a full round to cast it which I think backs up the idea that it's two rounds. But my Rules-fu is weak so I'm sure it could be otherwise.
    Last edited by Steven; 2015-01-12 at 02:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Updated MITD link.

    Fair point about O-Chul; he was lower level than Miko during the battle of Azure City, but given his treatment by Team Evil he's had the opportunity to earn plenty XP. Any other thoughts on that?
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Could be. Could also be:
    1. drop holy symbol, charge goblin, get fireballed by X
    2. move back to holysymbol and make one attack, X does something off panel
    3. Full attack, X lightning bolts.

    Or not.

    edit: infact, as it's a Maximized lightning bolt it would take X a full round to cast it which I think backs up the idea that it's two rounds. But my Rules-fu is weak so I'm sure it could be otherwise.
    I considered something similar.

    Turn 1
    O-Chul drops the phylactery as a free action and attacks Jirix, without leaving his square. As a free action Jirix calls Xykon before passing.
    Xykon's turn, he drops V as a free action, or in this case may disengage out of grapple, and then Meteor Swarm's O-Chul. We see the meteor swarm hit O-Chul on panel 4.
    V's turn, V casts invisibility. Either this is done while falling, or as V is on the ground, the spell starting while falling for artistic effect. Regardless, this is irrelevant.

    Turn 2
    We see O-Chul start his turn next to the phylactery. We can see in the previous fight with Jirix, that O-Chul doesn't leave that spot. O-chul does a full attack on the phylactery for four hits, and is then Maximized Lightning Bolt by Xykon.

    Even if we assume it takes Xykon a full round to get to O-Chul after the first hit, which would be foolish on Xykon's part as that is a room for another spell. (Seeing as he attempted to cast another Meteor Swarm on V and O-Chul before they get teleported later, he does have the spells to attack.) O-Chul still has 3 attacks for a full round attack. Since he starts next to the Phylactery, that would be 6 attacks to attempt to get off on it.

    We see Xykon move closer to O-Chul, and do the attack in the same round. Now either Xykon has the Quickened Spell feat for this to work, a rod, or he has the ACF from PHB II Metamagic Specialist, which could allow him to cast it for free, and still move. (Or he has some other way of doing the Lightning Bolt as a Standard Action.)

    While checking, Quickened Maximized Lightning Bolt would count as a 10th level spell slot for Xykon along with the fact he never shouted Quicken with the spell, and a Rod would count as a Full Round Action, and provoke an AoO from O-Chul. This leaves me to believe that Xykon may have that ACF, since he moved and casted it in the same round.

    But lets say for the benefit of the doubt, Xykon just used the regular method of the Maximize Feat and did it in a full round action. Since we know the distance between O-Chul and where V was isn't to far away, that means Xykon would have to spend a turn floating in the air doing nothing to do the charge, while O-Chul beat on his phylactery, and then finally be able to get close and attack.

    Viewing the one round it would take Xykon to charge the spell, O-Chul could get off six full hits. Yet the only ones we do see are four.

    Without Xykon having a way to quicken a spell to be able to move and attack in the same round, O-Chul would have had two full attacks worth of damage, for six different attacks. Since we see he only gets four attacks off, that means he either was doing a single full attack, or he decided two not use two of the attacks for any reason in each round. (But seriously, this is O-Chul, he has no reason to NOT use his other two attacks if he had them. He has been rushing at Xykon, and Redcloak constantly, he would most likely use all of the attacks he was capable of.)

    In any case, to summarize.

    Either Xykon has a way to quicken his spells, and O-Chul is level 16+, or Xykon decided to spend a round not casting spells and watching O-Chul hit his phylactery, while O-Chul similarly decided to stand around and not hit Xykon's Phylactery for two of his attacks, and was watching him charge his spell.


    Edit:Before anyone else mentions the idea of Xykon moved on his turn when he casted Meteor Swarm. That would mean Xykon was standing next to O-Chul, and waiting an entire round within attack range of him, not doing anything. (Also the fact that we see Xykon's cape blowing on the turn he attacks, does imply he was moving that very same turn.)
    Last edited by Codyage; 2015-01-12 at 03:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Codyage View Post
    While checking, Quickened Maximized Lightning Bolt would count as a 10th level spell slot for Xykon along with the fact he never shouted Quicken with the spell, and a Rod would count as a Full Round Action, and provoke an AoO from O-Chul. This leaves me to believe that Xykon may have that ACF, since he moved and casted it in the same round.
    Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Updated MITD link.

    Fair point about O-Chul; he was lower level than Miko during the battle of Azure City, but given his treatment by Team Evil he's had the opportunity to earn plenty XP. Any other thoughts on that?
    Would he? Do Saiyan rules apply?
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.
    Which is complete hooey, if you ask me.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2015-01-12 at 10:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.
    Then doesn't that mean he has to be using the ACF to be able to cast his metamagic spell as a standard action, so he can still move in the same round?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Round 1: O-Chul kills Jirik, Xykon is fighting V.
    Round 2: Xykon attacks O-Chul, O-Chul attacks soul-hidey-place, Xykon moves.
    Round 3: Xykon attacks O-Chul.

    I think "O-Chul has 4 attacks per level" is more plausible than "Xykon has the ACF", but that's all a matter of opinion.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Going to the strip before, O'Chul does a smite evil, a disarm, and a third attack against Redcloak, while Redcloak casts Word of Recall. How does that work? It looks like O'Chul has three attacks, but Word of Recall is a standard action. This means either Redcloak consistently prepares to cast word of recall if he's about to be killed when he isn't taking actions on his turn (this still has issues with the disintegrate that was previously cast in that comic)), or the last attack is after the word of recall is cast (on Redcloak's turn he prepares to cast word of recall if he's being attacked, then casts it.) So at the start of the new strip, O'Chul has already used one attack from his turn.

    He then uses a second one to squash Jirix, and a third one attempting to hit the phylactery once. Xykon's meteor swarm is some sort of prepared action, since he's just been sitting there gloating over V (and his mention "I'm in the middle of something" suggests he's not acting in the normal flow of the turn? Or Xykon meteor swarms and moves for his turn after O'Chul does his three attacks, but to make it more cinematic the actions are woven together). O'Chul then gets a full round of three attacks before Xykon's maximized lightning bolt.

    It doesn't quite work, but it seems to flow as well as anything else.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    We have to remember that what is optimal isn't always what is used. That being said, I agree that O-Chul is 16+ for the reasons Codyage stated.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    Going to the strip before, O'Chul does a smite evil, a disarm, and a third attack against Redcloak, while Redcloak casts Word of Recall. How does that work? It looks like O'Chul has three attacks, but Word of Recall is a standard action. This means either Redcloak consistently prepares to cast word of recall if he's about to be killed when he isn't taking actions on his turn (this still has issues with the disintegrate that was previously cast in that comic)), or the last attack is after the word of recall is cast (on Redcloak's turn he prepares to cast word of recall if he's being attacked, then casts it.) So at the start of the new strip, O'Chul has already used one attack from his turn.

    He then uses a second one to squash Jirix, and a third one attempting to hit the phylactery once. Xykon's meteor swarm is some sort of prepared action, since he's just been sitting there gloating over V (and his mention "I'm in the middle of something" suggests he's not acting in the normal flow of the turn? Or Xykon meteor swarms and moves for his turn after O'Chul does his three attacks, but to make it more cinematic the actions are woven together). O'Chul then gets a full round of three attacks before Xykon's maximized lightning bolt.

    It doesn't quite work, but it seems to flow as well as anything else.
    Assuming O-Chul took more than a 5' step here, which he clearly did, he is unable to make more than 1 attack in a round.

    Round 1: O-Chul runs, Redcloak casts Disintegrate, O-Chul uses Smite Evil

    Round 2: Redcloak has the initiative, but either
    delays because he is obviously very distracted (not something you would do in a D&D game, but something that would happen in real life, the shock from losing an eye might prevent you from thinking clearly long enough for your opponent to act)
    or
    Readies an Action to cast Word of Recall if O-Chul decides to attack him instead of the soul-hidey-place
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2015-01-12 at 02:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Assuming O-Chul took more than a 5' step here, which he clearly did, he is unable to make more than 1 attack in a round.

    Round 1: O-Chul runs, Redcloak casts Disintegrate, O-Chul uses Smite Evil

    Round 2: Redcloak has the initiative, but either
    delays because he is obviously very distracted (not something you would do in a D&D game, but something that would happen in real life, the shock from losing an eye might prevent you from thinking clearly long enough for your opponent to act)
    or
    Readies an Action to cast Word of Recall if O-Chul decides to attack him instead of the soul-hidey-place
    I don't like this suggested order of operations because it suggests that Redcloak's next turn takes place before he loses his holy symbol, and all he does is prepare to cast word of recall. Possible, but that seems unlikely. Even more damning, in my opinion, is that O'Chul looks at the phylactery, says "No more lich then" when he has two attacks left (and one after hitting Jirix), and proceeds to wait until next turn to try to destroy it. I know that characters aren't always going to act optimally, but if a character is able to attack, says "I'm going to attack this object", and then proceeds not to attack it, that stretches credulity. I think we have to take O'Chul's word on it that if he had an extra attack (after attacking Jirix), that he would use it.

    Another issue RAW is that picking up the phylactery in the previous strip is a move action, which throws all the analysis out the window.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    I don't like this suggested order of operations because it suggests that Redcloak's next turn takes place before he loses his holy symbol, and all he does is prepare to cast word of recall. Possible, but that seems unlikely. Even more damning, in my opinion, is that O'Chul looks at the phylactery, says "No more lich then" when he has two attacks left (and one after hitting Jirix), and proceeds to wait until next turn to try to destroy it. I know that characters aren't always going to act optimally, but if a character is able to attack, says "I'm going to attack this object", and then proceeds not to attack it, that stretches credulity. I think we have to take O'Chul's word on it that if he had an extra attack (after attacking Jirix), that he would use it.

    Another issue RAW is that picking up the phylactery in the previous strip is a move action, which throws all the analysis out the window.
    The fact that V, and Xykon both get to cast a spell, implies that the round has passed, and it has come back to O-Chul's turn, rendering the Redcloak and Jirix fights unimportant. Even if someone were to believe O-chul was using an extra attack left over from the Jirix skirmish, that implies V and Xykon both had readied actions go off.
    Last edited by Codyage; 2015-01-12 at 03:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.
    I thought there is a build option that substitutes the sorcerer's familiar for the ability to cast quickened spells?

    If there isn't, can someone remind me what options are available in exchange for the familiar, which Xykon clearly doesn't have?

    Thanks,

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I thought there is a build option that substitutes the sorcerer's familiar for the ability to cast quickened spells?

    If there isn't, can someone remind me what options are available in exchange for the familiar, which Xykon clearly doesn't have?

    Thanks,

    Grey Wolf
    There is. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but it's called metamagic specialist from players handbook II. The get 3+Int a day, the ability to cast a metamagic spell as a standard action for the cost of a familiar if I remember correctly.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Ooh, I like the new title.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Assuming O-Chul took more than a 5' step here, which he clearly did, he is unable to make more than 1 attack in a round.
    I think O-Chul ran, ended his turn near Redcloak, got zapped, then 5 foot stepped and full attacked.

    Given Xykon's arrogance about O-Chul's chances, why can't that be two rounds of attacks? The whole two strip fight looks like:

    O-chul moves to be near Redcloak. Redcloak disintegrates, O-Chul smites and disarms. Redcloak prepares word of recall. O-Chul attacks Redcloak, then attacks Jirix (picking up amulet in the middle is a bit of a fudge here). V and X cast their spells, O-Chul attacks, Xykon spends his round casting maximized lightning bolt so O-Chul attacks again.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

    Xykon has definitely cast quickened spells somewhere, and so he has some means of doing it. The reason we haven't listed his means for doing so is that we don't know how he's doing it, and there are at least three possibilities: He has the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage, or he has the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature from PHB2 (replaces familiar), or he has the Arcane Preparation feat from Complete Arcane. Of those, Complete Arcane is the only book that we otherwise know is in play, but it's quite out of character for Xykon, and there's no solid evidence to decide between the other two.

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