OOTS #974 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Shale]

The real cliffhanger: Is going around a corner a bigger problem for Bozzok's ability to see the fight, or Crystal's ability to figure out Haley's location?

[Studoku]

I never get tired of tearing off people's heads and hitting them in the face with them.

[Teucros]

Nice to see Bozzok again. And that disappointment right after that gloating...perfect.

[lothos]

A lot of questions answered.....
Nice exposition without it feeling forced.

I'm still curious about what species Grubwiggler is.

[2.5 cats]

On the bright side, there won't be a horde of lower-level rogues with grudges against Haley and/or Belkar for killing them.

Violating a contract is pretty harsh, though. I wonder what's become of Hank.

[Savil]

Nice to see all that speculation confirmed.
Also, awesome punchline :smallbiggrin:

[Silferdrake]

Nice exposition! Oh, and Grubwiggler does seem a bit annoyed at Bozzok, doesn't he? I wonder why...

[hamishspence]

I'm still curious about what species Grubwiggler is.

Part-frog-creature, maybe? There's various species with a froggy appearance, some of which can hybridize with humans.

Chaonds in MM2, for example, are descendants of slaad-human interbreeding.

[fishguy]

So many answers, the forum is going to have nothing to talk about this week!

[talkamancer]

We had an assassin who "backstabbed the ninja and laughed in his face".

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Resurrection didn't fix the golemmancer's skin condition.

[The DeathKnight]

Bwahaha so it WAS a crystal Golem.

[Jay R]

I will point out that I was the first to refer to this as a Crystal Golem. Bozzok agrees with me.


Yes, I know why it's not true. You don't have to show me any pictures.

I'm still going to call this creature a crystal golem until we pin down what it really is.

[Agnostik]

Nice boots, Bozzok.

[Trixie]

Wait, didn't Haley spent all the money she was gathering for the Guild on Azure City resistance? What money Bozzok is talking about? :smallconfused:

Yes, there is deal Celia brokered here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html) but Haley was pretty much penniless then and decided to call it off immediately by means of violent backstabbing. 5x Flesh golem cost would be over 100.000 GP, how did she have so much on hand?

Hm, interesting how Bozzok found Haley in random city pretty much immediately when she was travelling on an airship during colossal storm. That was some Epic grade tracking rolls.

Also, I was sure Grubwigler was killed to write him off the comic, his death seems kind of pointless now. Especially seeing it give him good reason to not cooperate with Guild, unless he somehow sees Haley stealing as more revenge-worthy than Crystal killing him.


Violating a contract is pretty harsh, though.
You mean the one Haley tore and thrown into trash bin by killing Crystal? :smallconfused:

[Yana]

The exposition is truly riveting, but I think the Giant is making any excuse he can think of just so he can show off another gnome wearing a fancy hat, right? :smalltongue:

[Ebon_Drake]

Ooh, lots of exposition! I likey. We now know for definite who the angry eyes belonged to, who made the golem, what happened to Grubwiggler, and how and why Crystal still remembers Haley. All without feeling too forced.

It's really amusing me that Bozzok said it's a Crystal Golem despite it not being made of crystal. I mean, it's made of Crystal, not crystal. Unless there's crystals involved somewhere, but I don't see any crystals. Just Crystal.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Finally, we get to see Bozzok again! I was waiting for him to show up. Rather late in the game, but whatever. So, what's their plan? Take on the whole OOTS at once?

Presumably, the Crystal Golem is just the first phase. Add in the rest of the thieve's guild, and their ambush is complete. Got to take out Roy and V, though. Elan is already down, Belkar can be handled, and Drakulon hardly counts.

[Lord Torath]

I'm not sure that Bozzok's any smarter than Crystal is right now...

Thanks for the great comic, Giant!

[Keltest]

Im not normally prone to excessive sarcasm on these forums (just everywhere else in life) but...

Wow. Nooobody saw that coming.

Anyway, is it just me, or does Bozzok have no knees? I mean, I get that the boots are supposed to be knee-high, but there doesn't seem to be much leg left after that.

[Quild]

Suppositions were correct, Grubwiggler is back!
(edit: Keltest broke my sarcasm-o-meter :()

Nice touch from the Giant to have him named, I couldn't recall his exact name otherwise :D

How was this paid by Haley's gold? Bozzok got none of that. :smallconfused:

I'm sad for some of these low level thieves that aren't coming back :(



Also, Bozzok has a nice outfit :o

edit:

Wait, didn't Grubwiggler die in the deleted scene featured only in the extended print book?

So, does that count officially as canon in the web comic now?
I think that when Bozzok says "raising you from the grave", it means that he had Grubwiggler raised from the grave.

[Neosmith]

Wait, didn't Grubwiggler die in the deleted scene featured only in the extended print book?

So, does that count officially as canon in the web comic now?

[Keltest]

Suppositions were correct, Grubwiggler is back!
(edit: Keltest broke my sarcasm-o-meter :() Sorry about that :smalltongue:


Nice touch from the Giant to have him named, I couldn't recall his exact name otherwise :D

How was this paid by Haley's gold? Bozzok got none of that. :smallconfused:

I'm sad for some of these low level thieves that aren't coming back :(



Also, Bozzok has a nice outfit :o

edit:

I think that when Bozzok says "raising you from the grave", it means that he had Grubwiggler raised from the grave.

I assume that he Grubwiggler is accepting credit. Alternatively, Bozzok paid up front and intends to reimburse guild coffers out of Haley's fortune.


Wait, didn't Grubwiggler die in the deleted scene featured only in the extended print book?

So, does that count officially as canon in the web comic now?

Im pretty sure all the bonus panels, as well as SoD and Origins have always been web comic canon, its just that Rich tries not to make them plot relevant with providing the appropriate exposition at the time. Interestingly enough, the last time the Thieves' Guild showed up they were pretty blatant about what they were doing too.

[Lathund]

One of the weaker comics imho. Well, despite some funny moments ("I'm going to tear off your head and hit you in the FACE with it!"). But it seemed like most of this one was about justifying the plot.

Well, now that we've got that covered, let's move back to better material.

[One Step Two]

I actually enjoy the somewhat dim antics of Crystal. They make for especially memorable villains in both games and stories.
"How can someone this frustrating be such a damn threat!?"
Just like Thog :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

One of the weaker comics imho. Well, despite some funny moments ("I'm going to tear off your head and hit you in the FACE with it!"). But it seemed like most of this one was about justifying the plot.

Well, now that we've got that covered, let's move back to better material.

The word youre looking for is "Exposition" and yeah. But hey, it had to happen eventually.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

So Grubbwiggler pulls an Ellen Tigh!

I though Crystal was a golem from the moment I saw her, but I wasn't sure who "golemized" her. Should have gone with the obvious.

[Neosmith]

Just pulled out my copy of Don't Split the Party and noticed some interesting differences btw the original panel depicting Grubwiggler's death and the flashback here (aside from the obvious art style change)

-Grubwiggler's doesn't have Xs instead of eyes
-The SCCHTRLK!! is far more stylized and angular in the new version
-Crystal's "Death Attack" originally had 3 exclamation points
-Grubwiggler seems to be lifted higher and further back in the new version
-Haley is tilted left somewhat in the flashback, whereas she is standing fully upright in the original

[happycrow]

Well, THAT was definitive. Hadn't expected Grubby to actually travel with Bozzok, either.

[davidbofinger]

does Bozzok have no knees? I mean, I get that the boots are supposed to be knee-high, but there doesn't seem to be much leg left after that.

It seems unlikely he rides a horse very much (a common reason for high boots). Maybe he likes them for trudging around in sewers?

[HandofShadows]

GREAT Page. :smallbiggrin: I somehow get the feeling that turning Crystal into a golem is going to bite Bozzok REALLY hard at some point. :smallamused:

[Keltest]

It seems unlikely he rides a horse very much (a common reason for high boots). Maybe he likes them for trudging around in sewers?

Actually, now that I look at it again, theyre the same height they were back in Greysky. Odd.

[Ivrytwr]

Plot exposition! Elan would approve.
Bozzok and Grubby, ha.
More gnome hats and a gnome with flower in her hair.

Thanks Giant!

[davidbofinger]

give him good reason to not cooperate with Guild, unless he somehow sees Haley stealing as more revenge-worthy than Crystal killing him.

From Grubwiggler's point of view, bringing together all the people he hates - Bozzok, Crystal and Haley - means there's a good chance at least one of them will die. Even if he's not planning betrayal, it's a start. (This was a crucial plot point in one of Vance's Demon Princes series.)

Crazy ideas: What if it's not really Crystal in there, but a creature of Grubwiggler's, and the reason it chased them around the corner was so Bozzok couldn't hear it betraying him. And what if one of the characters figures out what's happened to Durkon by analogy with what was done to Crystal.

[Werbaer]

Hm, interesting how Bozzok found Haley in random city pretty much immediately when she was travelling on an airship during colossal storm. That was some Epic grade tracking rolls.
He knew they were heading towards the north pole with an airship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html). There surely are't many places where you can get a refuel on route.

[Lhynard]

How does one pronounce "SCCHTRLK!!" anyhow?

[oppyu]

Every now and then, you can tell when the Giant is just sick of the rampant speculation in the Playground. 'Here is a thorough and completely canonical explanation. Now for the love of God stop arguing.'

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So, she isn't a normal flesh golem; there is something different in her creation. Good to know. I really want to see Grubwiggler backstab Bozzok in some way. Maybe he created Crystal to help get his revenge too?

[AsteronIronhoof]

Man, all these gnomes wearing hats makes me think this is Gnome Fortress 3: Steampunk edition!

[davidbofinger]

How does one pronounce "SCCHTRLK!!" anyhow?

With your internal organs and great pain.

[Martok]

Bwahahaha!! Love Crystal's threat, and the quizzical reactions to it.

[William Fox]

Every now and then, you can tell when the Giant is just sick of the rampant speculation in the Playground. 'Here is a thorough and completely canonical explanation. Now for the love of God stop arguing.'

Lol. My thoughts EXACTLY.
I expect to see some Author Commentary in the next book on this very page; "Now everyone on the forums had their panties in a twist with what Crystal was, how she got there, and who brought her back. There was so much arguing and speculation, I decided "Screw IT!" and just cast 'Summon Plot Exposition!"

[goto124]

Who is 'Starshine's ally', dead Roy?

And have people argued over HOW exactly they managed to keep Crystal's skills?

I like how there's always time for a joke. Or 2.

[Peelee]

I really love Bozzok's jacket. Those are both the simplest and also best pockets ive seen in comic form.


A lot of questions answered.....
Nice exposition without it feeling forced.

I'm still curious about what species Grubwiggler is.

I'd say he is the eggman, but he may also be the walrus.

[xroads]

Hmmm... I wonder how Bozzok plans on countering the rest of the Order?

[Keltest]

Hmmm... I wonder how Bozzok plans on countering the rest of the Order?

Scroll of Expeditious Retreat?

[Brumagris]

Every now and then, you can tell when the Giant is just sick of the rampant speculation in the Playground. 'Here is a thorough and completely canonical explanation. Now for the love of God stop arguing.'


I adhere, I thought the exact same while I was reading :smallbiggrin:

A lovely strip, great exposition and references to clarify this messed up issue. I liked the last joke very much, simple and strong, refreshengly reminded me of the humor in the first hundreds of strips.


Newbie question, though: is there such thing as "crystal golem" in any D&D manual or it is just a pun based on Crystal´s name? If such creature exists, is she, in fact, a crystal golem?

[Roland Itiative]

Also, I was sure Grubwigler was killed to write him off the comic, his death seems kind of pointless now. Especially seeing it give him good reason to not cooperate with Guild, unless he somehow sees Haley stealing as more revenge-worthy than Crystal killing him.
I think his cooperation is based on the fact that Bozzok could easily... let's call it "dispell the Raise Dead cast on him". He may try to backstab Bozzok when the opportunity arises (maybe the Crystal Golem has an override that turns control back to him?), but right now, he might as well cooperate and get yet another enemy out of the way and lull Bozzok into a false sense of security in a single move.

[The Giant]

Lol. My thoughts EXACTLY.
I expect to see some Author Commentary in the next book on this very page; "Now everyone on the forums had their panties in a twist with what Crystal was, how she got there, and who brought her back. There was so much arguing and speculation, I decided "Screw IT!" and just cast 'Summon Plot Exposition!"

No. More like when I introduce something that's not immediately apparent, I always have a plan for, at some point, explaining what's going on—it's just that everyone spends all their energy arguing about it from the moment it shows up that by the time I get around to explaining, everyone else is so sick of arguing and speculation that they project their feelings on to me.

I'm explaining these things now because to not do so at some point would be a glaring omission, nothing more. What people speculate about on the forum doesn't really matter to me very much. If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification here, not spend comic time explaining something that I don't think needs explaining.

For example, people have been confused about how Bozzok found them, and I assure you no explanation is forthcoming in the comic beyond the information already revealed, because it can be easily deduced and it doesn't need further dwelling upon for the story to make sense.

[littlebum2002]

Meh, too much exposition.

thog want return to action

[Psyren]

To the folks wondering: finding Haley is easy, Bozzok had enough of her hair to make Grubby a wig. Certainly more than enough to pay for a quick scrying.


The real cliffhanger: Is going around a corner a bigger problem for Bozzok's ability to see the fight, or Crystal's ability to figure out Haley's location?

I was totally thinking it could be either or both of these :smallbiggrin:


So, she isn't a normal flesh golem; there is something different in her creation. Good to know.

That was kinda obvious from the fact that it had class levels.

[Kgw]

Nice! Update! I like Grubwiggler's open mind about deals -even if deals with thieves and thieves' guild had never ended alright with him- Also, I'd never understood why Bozzok prefer Crystal that much. He's clever enough to know she's "dumber than a brick", no matter how good as a killer she is/was.

[gerryq]

Also, I was sure Grubwigler was killed to write him off the comic, his death seems kind of pointless now. Especially seeing it give him good reason to not cooperate with Guild, unless he somehow sees Haley stealing as more revenge-worthy than Crystal killing him.
used:

My thought was that he was a minor character (at least in the webcomic), and he only got killed off in the print edition so most readers of the webcomic probably won't know about his death (I knew from talk on this forum). So maybe Rich simply decided he wanted him after all and that he could safely have such a character rezzed without running the risk of cheapening the deaths of major characters. [Also he can use it to show that Bozzok is high-level (commanding such resources) and mention Bozzok's motivation (Haley's supposed hoard.)]

I enjoyed this strip, some good jokes. I guess the Gnometown arc is going to be longer than expected...

[Tragak]

From Grubwiggler's point of view, bringing together all the people he hates - Bozzok, Crystal and Haley - means there's a good chance at least one of them will die. Even if he's not planning betrayal, it's a start. I like this :smalltongue:

[Breccia]

Wait, she got high a lot? She really is a Crystal Meth golem? That was my joke guess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392674-OOTS-972-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18670795#post18670795)!

[allenw]

A lot of questions answered.....
Nice exposition without it feeling forced.


I think most readers would find it far more forced than, say, any conversation between any two named female rogue cast members (to chose a totally random example). :smallwink:

But it was useful exposition nonetheless.

[SavageWombat]

Anyone else think that Bozzok comes across as "evil-er" than previously? He seemed a lot more "practical evil" before. This is probably his true colors showing.

[Ornithologist]

Exposition is everyone's job, so says Elan. Otherwise it will happen during an important action scene.

[M.A.D]

Anyway, is it just me, or does Bozzok have no knees? I mean, I get that the boots are supposed to be knee-high, but there doesn't seem to be much leg left after that.

Those are thigh-high boots, I think. The same kind that cowboys wear.


Who is 'Starshine's ally', dead Roy?


Bozzok should have met all of the Order + Celia already, except for living Roy.

[Edric O]

Woooo! Exposition! :)

Well, now we know what the deal is with the golem. I'm still unsure what kind of golem that is, though... a flesh golem with self-awareness.

[HendoJ]

Anyone else think that Bozzok comes across as "evil-er" than previously? He seemed a lot more "practical evil" before. This is probably his true colors showing.

Or perhaps that Bozzack isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. That and he may not have a lot of knowledge in terms of the party members, he may not even have seen anyone but Belkar. Hank, probably believes (rightly) that Bozzack will end up on the wrong end of a fireball or Holy Smite. Which may lead to an easy transition of power assuming Hank is already in charge in B's absence.

[Angelalex242]

If only Haley would remember to use fire or ice magic...that'd at least give her time to breathe.

Slow the golem, Haley!

[Brumagris]

I think most readers would find it far more forced than, say, any conversation between any two named female rogue cast members (to chose a totally random example). :smallwink:

But it was useful exposition nonetheless.

As long as no reader finds field for discussing Bozzok and Grubwiggler sexualities, I think we will be fine XD

[WolvesbaneIII]

So, was it thog behind the door or not? I'm so confused...


...


...

...

:P

[Quild]

As long as no reader finds field for discussing Bozzok and Grubwiggler sexualities, I think we will be fine XD

Well, since you mention it, I think that Bozzok's nice outfit is kind of a hint. Soooo, homo or metro?


Yup, I know the way out.

[dtilque]

So, was it thog behind the door or not? I'm so confused...


Nope, it was Redcloak's niece.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That was kinda obvious from the fact that it had class levels.
Well, yeah, but it's good to have it confirmed by Grubwiggler that something different is going on. Also, the fact that she could talk and remembered Haley were pretty big tells.

[littlebum2002]

Or perhaps that Bozzack isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. That and he may not have a lot of knowledge in terms of the party members, he may not even have seen anyone but Belkar. Hank, probably believes (rightly) that Bozzack will end up on the wrong end of a fireball or Holy Smite. Which may lead to an easy transition of power assuming Hank is already in charge in B's absence.

Yeah that Bozzack guy is a goner.

[CrispyCriminal]

Welp, time to bag an Elan in Distress eh Bozzok? Or kill him, but they still have a cleric on hand just in case.

[Particle_Man]

I am amazed that Crystal got a Death Attack to actually work, given her low intelligence score. Well I guess natural 1's always fail.

[Lheticus]

Huh, so all the people saying the guy in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html #970 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html) was Bozzok WERE right! Nice move on the delayed reveal, Sir Giant.

[Shining Wrath]

Yep. Grubwiggler resurrection ==> Crystal golem with intelligence - in a manner of speaking. Gratz to all those who called it.

Now Bozzok has to decide whether or not to leave his hideout to watch Crystal pummel Haley, or miss out. It doesn't matter, though; the minute Haley and Bandanna reach Roy and the others, Crystal has a very short life ahead of her. She's still a flesh golem with some upgrades, even if the upgrades double her CR she's CR 14 against a level 15+ party. Crystal goes down fast and hard is my guess.

[Shining Wrath]

Or perhaps that Bozzack isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. That and he may not have a lot of knowledge in terms of the party members, he may not even have seen anyone but Belkar. Hank, probably believes (rightly) that Bozzack will end up on the wrong end of a fireball or Holy Smite. Which may lead to an easy transition of power assuming Hank is already in charge in B's absence.

Even "good" people can go off the mental rails when their pride is hurt. I recall a chap named Iago who got quite peeved when he didn't get a promotion. Bozzok is about 1/2 as smart as Iago and is unlikely to get Elan to say "Put me down as one who loved not wisely but too well".

[HendoJ]

Even "good" people can go off the mental rails when their pride is hurt. I recall a chap named Iago who got quite peeved when he didn't get a promotion. Bozzok is about 1/2 as smart as Iago and is unlikely to get Elan to say "Put me down as one who loved not wisely but too well".

Very true, however I feel you are being too kind to Bozzok's mental abilities.

[Shining Wrath]

No. More like when I introduce something that's not immediately apparent, I always have a plan for, at some point, explaining what's going on—it's just that everyone spends all their energy arguing about it from the moment it shows up that by the time I get around to explaining, everyone else is so sick of arguing and speculation that they project their feelings on to me.

I'm explaining these things now because to not do so at some point would be a glaring omission, nothing more. What people speculate about on the forum doesn't really matter to me very much. If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification here, not spend comic time explaining something that I don't think needs explaining.

For example, people have been confused about how Bozzok found them, and I assure you no explanation is forthcoming in the comic beyond the information already revealed, because it can be easily deduced and it doesn't need further dwelling upon for the story to make sense.

Otherwise known as "Why villains give long speeches explaining how their scheme works to the hero they plan on killing soon". Authors have to account for things somehow.

So we are to assume that Bozzok had enough information on Haley's movements from his spy on Mr. Starshine to find her in Gnometown?

[Shining Wrath]

Very true, however I feel you are being too kind to Bozzok's mental abilities.

Well, do recall how things ended up for Iago. IIRC Shakespeare had precisely one villain led offstage to be tortured to death in the final scene. The better class of villains (Macbeth, Brutus) get better deaths.

[CoffeeIncluded]

But Iago wasn't good either. I know what you're saying though.

[Gift Jeraff]

So we are to assume that Bozzok had enough information on Haley's movements from his spy on Mr. Starshine to find her in Gnometown?Bozzok knew where they were headed from, their method of transportation, and their destination. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html) Tinkertown is presumably the main stop for airships travelling between the Western and Northern Continents. Bandana said they were going to head there for refueling regardless of repairs.

[Fawkes]

Damn, Bozzok is rocking those thigh-highs. Fierce.

[Quild]

I am amazed that Crystal got a Death Attack to actually work, given her low intelligence score. Well I guess natural 1's always fail.

Well, if as her nemesys Crystal has the same assassin level than Haley's rogue level, she must have been level 14, even maybe 15 at this moment. And she may have an intelligence score of 5 or 6. Which makes the DC being something like: 10 + 14 - 2 = 22

I don't think Grubwiggler could have make that Fortitude Save.

[Bubble]

I'm curious where the bump/lump/growth on Grubwiggler's head went. Maybe he had it removed?

Compare to strip 580 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html).

[asorel]

I'm curious where the bump/lump/growth on Grubwiggler's head went. Maybe he had it removed?

Compare to strip 580 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html).

If it was an infection of some sort, would rezzing him have cured it?

[Quild]

I'm curious where the bump/lump/growth on Grubwiggler's head went. Maybe he had it removed?

Compare to strip 580 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html).

Haley used a "SAP SNEAK ATTACK!" in 577, that's where it comes from.
You don't expect it to be there for long.

[Jay R]

It doesn't matter, though; the minute Haley and Bandanna reach Roy and the others, Crystal has a very short life ahead of her. She's still a flesh golem with some upgrades, even if the upgrades double her CR she's CR 14 against a level 15+ party. Crystal goes down fast and hard is my guess.

True, but that leads to a very uncomfortable discussion after the party hears the Crystal Golem say, "You killed me!"

[CoffeeIncluded]

True, but that leads to a very uncomfortable discussion after the party hears the Crystal Golem say, "You killed me!"

Haley told Elan about it though, so she might have told the others offscreen. Or they might know something.

[SaintRidley]

I'm curious where the bump/lump/growth on Grubwiggler's head went. Maybe he had it removed?

Compare to strip 580 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html).

It was because of the sap sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0577.html). He got healed before he died.

[Canuck617]

Wait, she got high a lot? She really is a Crystal Meth golem? That was my joke guess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392674-OOTS-972-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18670795#post18670795)!

Haha!! Nice! Like others here, I'm digging the stupidity of Crystal's comments. I, too, am also wondering why Bozzok's boots are so big. Seems a bit much, but if I were an intelligent Orc, I would probably have those kind of boots anyway.

[Keltest]

Haley told Elan about it though, so she might have told the others offscreen. Or they might know something.

Why would they care, anyway? They might frown upon the specific manner in which she killed Crystal, but Haley can hardly be blamed for at least entertaining the idea. Killing Crystal at all wasn't the thing that made her guilty, it was murdering her in the shower after a non-aggression contract.

[Grey Watcher]

Just pulled out my copy of Don't Split the Party and noticed some interesting differences btw the original panel depicting Grubwiggler's death and the flashback here (aside from the obvious art style change)

-Grubwiggler's doesn't have Xs instead of eyes
-The SCCHTRLK!! is far more stylized and angular in the new version
-Crystal's "Death Attack" originally had 3 exclamation points
-Grubwiggler seems to be lifted higher and further back in the new version
-Haley is tilted left somewhat in the flashback, whereas she is standing fully upright in the original

You forgot to mention that this version of that panel is in the new art style (colored-in limbs, etc.). I wonder if the digital original of the panel was lost in that hard drive crash a while back? Of course, it would have to updated to the new art style in any event, so as not to look jarring by comparison.

[Theory]

I recall a chap named Iago who got quite peeved when he didn't get a promotion. Bozzok is about 1/2 as smart as Iago and is unlikely to get Elan to say "Put me down as one who loved not wisely but too well".

Iago is one of the best villains of all time, imo. Wonderful reference!

[Anarion]

Bozzok looks great, but background gnome with a flower in her hair in panel 7 looks spectacular. I love the Giant's gnomes.

I wonder if Bozzok will actually get himself killed here.

[Mike Havran]

That's some nice display of workforce management skill on Bozzok's part. But I thought he would be more pragmatic with his revenge. Sure, Crystal is buffed up a little bit, but unless he's got some reinforcements hidden away he's in worse position than in Greysky (and he blowed that one).

[Keltest]

That's some nice display of workforce management skill on Bozzok's part. But I thought he would be more pragmatic with his revenge. Sure, Crystal is buffed up a little bit, but unless he's got some reinforcements hidden away he's in worse position than in Greysky (and he blowed that one).

Without Belkar around, Haley is even less likely to beat Crystal than before, since she cant even use her sneak attacks on a Construct.

[Killer Angel]

Thanks Bozzok, for the cutting of many epileptic trees. :smalltongue:

[rafet]

I loved Thog, and though it made sense to be Bozzak. I hope we see Thog return, because if their not disintegrated and blown into the wind, their not dead.

I don't think Grubwiggler will turn on the Bozzak, for a few reasons. First of which is Grubwiggler doesn't seem like the revenge getting type, he's businessman first, a strange demented evil businessman, but still a businessman.

2nd Double crossing Bozzak could get the thieves guild to go after him, UNLESS he and Hank worked out a deal to double cross Bozzak.

3rd Thieves guild is better than the MOB

[Lheticus]

I just realized--she's going to hit Haley in the face with her own head? Good luck with that. XD

[Tvtyrant]

I would think he would want them to be cornered.

[Lombard]

"Or get bored with what she's doing and decide to go get high instead."

LOL

Really an underexplored facet of the D&D universe, imo. In a world where a potion can near-instantaneously fix up your massive head trauma, how good are the psychoactive drugs going to be??

[ti'esar]

The exposition stuff has been pretty thoroughly covered already, so instead let me just say that Bozzok is wearing a stylin' outfit here.


Anyone else think that Bozzok comes across as "evil-er" than previously? He seemed a lot more "practical evil" before. This is probably his true colors showing.

A bit, yeah. He's certainly more gratuitously vengeful then I would have expected.

Though I guess with the Linear Guild now defunct, there's a "B-list antagonists seeking disproportionate revenge" slot needing to be filled.

[Keltest]

I don't thin Bozzok is more evil, necessarily, so much as just more in-your-face evil. I mean, the guy murdered enough former guild mates to get a higher rogue level than Haley, by a good bit, but we didn't see any of that on screen, so it didn't trigger as much.

[YossarianLives]

I love all the confused-looking gnomes. They all look so great and gnomish.

[Lkctgo]

Grubwiggler's alive! He's ALIVVVVEEE!

[Quild]

I don't thin Bozzok is more evil, necessarily, so much as just more in-your-face evil. I mean, the guy murdered enough former guild mates to get a higher rogue level than Haley, by a good bit, but we didn't see any of that on screen, so it didn't trigger as much.

Not sure if that's not sarcasm or if my sarcasm-o-meter is still broken.
This wasn't on-screen, but he still have a lot of bad actions we know about. Off-panel or not.


Iago is one of the best villains of all time, imo. Wonderful reference!

But he joined Team Good in Jafar's Return, so can we still take into account is evil past?
I have a strong preference for Syndrome in Incredibles.

Yup, still know where the door is.

[Keltest]

Not sure if that's not sarcasm or if my sarcasm-o-meter is still broken.
This wasn't on-screen, but he still have a lot of bad actions we know about. Off-panel or not.

Not sarcasm. But we have Bozzok admitting, to our faces on page, that he is willing to pay money to transform his guild mates into monsters for his own personal satisfaction.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So, Crystal never gets tired or hungry or sleepy.

That's going to be hard to outrun, because most people require hours of sleep. in every 24-hour period. A week is 168 hours. Four miles an hour is 672 miles a week. And it adds up.

I wonder if Crystal has to breathe or if she can withstand enormous pressure, like Mister Pump from Going Postal can.

I also wonder what tracking capabilities Crystal has.

[eusticepious]

Notes:

General: some tension between Bozzok and Grybwiggler is hinted at gently. Grubwiggler created a construct capable of remembering "murdering skills" that actually murdered Grubwiggler (later raised). Grubwiggler appears in kind of debt to Bozzok (both patron and raising him from the dead for a purpose)
No mention of Bandana by Bozzok or Grub...

"I'm glad you approved" -- leaves me curious about the terms of Bozzok/Grubwiggler relationship, a strange one if you think about it.
"She may be my finest creation yet" -- there may be others out there near to or exceeding Crystal; Grybwyggler continues to view each as his creation, not "with the help of ____ i.e. Arkay"
3rd panel "raising you from the dead to build me the perfect..." Grubwyggler was raised in such a way as to be bound/obligated to Bozzok?
Panel 4: Crystal killed Grybwiggler, does fear his own creation?
Panel 5: Gryb seeks info, now dated, from an excited Bozzok and a lucky moment. We learn more about the relationship of these two.
Panel 6: Nerds learn the cost multiplier and can derive a lot from there. Guess they're spending Hayley's money too.

[Lhynard]

With your internal organs and great pain.

:smallsmile:

[Quild]

Not sarcasm. But we have Bozzok admitting, to our faces on page, that he is willing to pay money to transform his guild mates into monsters for his own personal satisfaction.

Ah. I misunderstood your post in a first place. I thought you were saying that he wasn't very high on the scale of Evil because we only heard about what he did but never saw it. But that wasn't what you were saying!
Not totally sure of what you meant though.

[Keltest]

Ah. I misunderstood your post in a first place. I thought you were saying that he wasn't very high on the scale of Evil because we only heard about what he did but never saw it. But that wasn't what you were saying!
Not totally sure of what you meant though.

Well, its sort of like how somebody is less likely to react to, say, a violent act if they cant actually see it happening. We heard about how Bozzok killed an enormous amount of people, probably more than Nale and Thog did in Cliffport, but it doesn't affect us in the same way that him confessing that he deliberately defiled Crystal's body and soul for his personal vengeance does, because we didn't actually see those acts.

[-D-]

I just realized--she's going to hit Haley in the face with her own head? Good luck with that. XD
She could peel off her face skin and slap the rest of her head with it.

[multilis]

But is that really Crystal? We have already had a fake Thog.

What if instead if Crystal, Miko was used and is only pretending to be crystal with a little coaching? And once they go around the corner, the truth will be revealed to Haley...

We could be in a lot of trouble if that happens, Elan might find a sexy golem chick attractive and we end up with a love triangle!

[137beth]

Well she isn't any smarter then Crystal was originally, it seems.


But is that really Crystal? We have already had a fake Thog.

What if instead if Crystal, Miko was used and is only pretending to be crystal with a little coaching? And once they go around the corner, the truth will be revealed to Haley...

We could be in a lot of trouble if that happens, Elan might find a sexy golem chick attractive and we end up with a love triangle!

:smalleek:
I doubt it, but still.

[DireWolf]

Crystal Golem- "I am going to tear off your head and hit you in the face with it."

Bozzok- "No one humiliates me in front of my guild, Starshine. I'm going to mount your head on my wall, right above my desk."


I am going to take a shot in the dark here with a prediction, based on these two lines quoted above. Even though Haley is the target of Crystal, Bandana will run interference so Haley can get away. This will cost Bandana her life because the Crystal golem will rip her head off and actually throw it at Haley's face. Maybe the foreshadowing is too obvious? Maybe, but two lines of dialogue were given to someone losing a head, and I don't think Haley will die here. That leaves Bandana.

[eusticepious]

Notes:

General: some tension between Bozzok and Grybwiggler is hinted at gently. Grubwiggler created a construct capable of remembering "murdering skills" that actually murdered Grubwiggler (later raised). Grubwiggler appears in kind of debt to Bozzok (both patron and raising him from the dead for a purpose)
No mention of Bandana by Bozzok or Grub...

"I'm glad you approved" -- leaves me curious about the terms of Bozzok/Grubwiggler relationship, a strange one if you think about it.
"She may be my finest creation yet" -- there may be others out there near to or exceeding Crystal; Grybwyggler continues to view each as his creation, not "with the help of ____ i.e. Arkay"
3rd panel "raising you from the dead to build me the perfect..." Grubwyggler was raised in such a way as to be bound/obligated to Bozzok?
Panel 4: Crystal killed Grybwiggler, does fear his own creation?
Panel 5: Gryb seeks info, now dated, from an excited Bozzok and a lucky moment. We learn more about the relationship of these two.
Panel 6: Nerds learn the cost multiplier and can derive a lot from there. Guess they're spending Hayley's money too.

Edit: Main point of cartoon is that the The Giant things Oak and a bronze plaque are nice looking. Alabaster and zebrawood would be my style in pen.

[Oneris]

Im not normally prone to excessive sarcasm on these forums (just everywhere else in life) but...

Wow. Nooobody saw that coming.

Anyway, is it just me, or does Bozzok have no knees? I mean, I get that the boots are supposed to be knee-high, but there doesn't seem to be much leg left after that.

He could be rocking thigh-highs. :smalltongue:

...and now I need to go and bleach my brain. :smallyuk:

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

Nice! Update! I like Grubwiggler's open mind about deals -even if deals with thieves and thieves' guild had never ended alright with him- Also, I'd never understood why Bozzok prefer Crystal that much. He's clever enough to know she's "dumber than a brick", no matter how good as a killer she is/was.

I have a simple answer for why Bozzok prefers her. Haley's father (Ian "Red" Starshine) is his rival (but not nemesis) for control of the Guild, and Haley is loyal to her father. Bozzok fears both of them for their ability to level so easily. Crystal represents a foil for Haley. As a nemesis, Crystal always gets free levels, which means she is dumb enough to control and powerful enough to throw at Haley or use as a threat against anyone who would challenge his authority in the Guild besides the Starshines. Basically, Crystal is Bozzok's nuclear option... he doesn't have to almost ever use her, the threat of her is what is most important, since she is as strong as a major PC and always growing stronger, but if he does need to use her, she is actually potentially capable of handling some of the highest level beings in the OotS Universe that might show up in his town.

[Troodos]

Thanks for the laugh, Rich, I really needed it today.:frown:

[faustin]

Mmmm... I used to consider Bozzok pragmatic enough to focus himself in rebuild and improve his Guild rather than waste money in a petty revenge against someone who no longer possed a threat against his criminal enterprise.

[HeeJay]

True, but that leads to a very uncomfortable discussion after the party hears the Crystal Golem say, "You killed me!"

Just Roy, not anybody else in the party.

Elan already knows.

Belkar and Durkula would be like: "We honestly don't see any problem with that deed. Rock on, rogue buddy!"

Vaarsuvius wouldn't care about just one murder... :smalleek:

[GAAD]

Thanks for the laugh, Rich, I really needed it today.:frown:

My most sincere condolences for whatever happened. Here's another joke, potentially related to your circumstance, that might give you another one. :smallredface:

All animals go through the five stages of grief, except ants, who only go through four.
All animals go through the five stages of grief, acceptance, who only go through four.
Spot the pun! Answer in between these sentences.

[Troodos]

My most sincere condolences for whatever happened. Here's another joke, potentially related to your circumstance, that might give you another one. :smallredface:

All animals go through the five stages of grief, except ants, who only go through four.
All animals go through the five stages of grief, acceptance, who only go through four.
Spot the pun! Answer in between these sentences.

Yeah, I'm afraid that one of my biggest heroes, Monty Oum, was announced to have died yesterday. :'(

[Shining Wrath]

"Or get bored with what she's doing and decide to go get high instead."

LOL

Really an underexplored facet of the D&D universe, imo. In a world where a potion can near-instantaneously fix up your massive head trauma, how good are the psychoactive drugs going to be??

Which is why I'm adding drug dealers to my campaign setting. The same people who go out into the swamps and bring back spices for chefs, and herbs for healers, bring back ... other stuff.

It's not actually illegal to sell their products, mind; it's what they do to collect from people who don't pay their bills after getting hooked and running up big debts that puts them on the bad side of your local mayor.

[Zmeoaice]

Haley screwed up big time when she cut the deal off.

[Keltest]

Haley screwed up big time when she cut the deal off.

Lets be real here, almost everyone involved was almost certainly chaotic. Bozzok would probably have gone after Haley regardless, especially since he was promised something she has no intent on delivering.

[AbyssStalker]

I'm betting that Hank betrays Bozzok, perhaps by letting the other members of the thieves guild know what Bozzok used the Resurrection funds on, instead of using the money to raise the thieves that died, if he knows that is, but he probably does. Grub is probably waiting to use Bozzok as golem fodder as well, possibly combining him with Crystal (wouldn't that be morbidly funny, especially if they both retained their consciousness).

And what is that thing in front of them in panel 3?

[oppyu]

Lets be real here, almost everyone involved was almost certainly chaotic. Bozzok would probably have gone after Haley regardless, especially since he was promised something she has no intent on delivering.
Yeah, notice Bozzok said 'Nobody humiliates me in front of my guild' instead of 'nobody reneges on a deal with me'. Even though I think Bozzok is Lawful Evil.

[Peelee]

Lets be real here, almost everyone involved was almost certainly chaotic. Bozzok would probably have gone after Haley regardless, especially since he was promised something she has no intent on delivering.

I'm pretty sure that

Bozzok told Crystal to kill Haley regardless, and make it look like an accident, before Haley pre-emptively jacked Crystal and reneged on the deal.

[Jasdoif]

Even though I think Bozzok is Lawful Evil.Bozzok is Neutral Evil.


I'm pretty sure that

Bozzok told Crystal to kill Haley regardless, and make it look like an accident, before Haley pre-emptively jacked Crystal and reneged on the deal.Correct. For more detail I'll refer you to Porthos' summary of the scene in question from Don't Split the Party.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

I never understood why Bozzok was Neutral and not Lawful, but oh well, im sure the giant has his justifications.:smalltongue:
What im more concerned with is how the Order will The Crystal Golem. Im afraid my familiarity with the DnD rules is minimal. if arrows and magic cannot kill it, how exactly is it suposed to be killed? Does fire still apply as before if this is a different type of golem?

[oppyu]

Bozzok is Neutral Evil.

Yup, that's it. My OOTS-fu is weak, oh mighty banana curator of the Index.

I never understood why Bozzok was Neutral and not Lawful, but oh well, im sure the giant has his justifications.:smalltongue:

Bozzok is happy to use rules to exploit others, but he does run a Thieves Guild. Plus whenever rules and contracts get in his way he's quick to break them. 'Oh, I'm contractually bound not to murder Haley? Crystal, go murder Haley and make it look like an accident' (during the Get Roy bonus arc).

[hamishspence]

Yes - I figure that while a Lawful Evil person could run a Thieves Guild, they'd probably be stricter with themselves.

[IamWeasel]

Well, its sort of like how somebody is less likely to react to, say, a violent act if they cant actually see it happening. We heard about how Bozzok killed an enormous amount of people, probably more than Nale and Thog did in Cliffport, but it doesn't affect us in the same way that him confessing that he deliberately defiled Crystal's body and soul for his personal vengeance does, because we didn't actually see those acts.

As a real life example there is the NFL football player Ray Rice. It wasn't cool with anyone that he beat up his girlfriend, until there was video footage available and then everyone was really appalled.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


...And what if one of the characters figures out what's happened to Durkon by analogy with what was done to Crystal.

This is the kind of clever story-telling that the Giant has demonstrated himself capable of executing. If he doesn't use this sub-plot as a direct parallel, I have little doubt it will still serve the main story in some fashion.

My current theory: Despite the Giant expressing a dislike of dead characters getting resurrected in his stories, it will happen at some dramatic point in this current book. Reminding us now that resurrection exists in this setting—even if it is rare—and showing that characters can still use it now and then will make that future dramatic moment feel properly foreshadowed, and not feel like an asspull.
*

[jidasfire]

Mmmm... I used to consider Bozzok pragmatic enough to focus himself in rebuild and improve his Guild rather than waste money in a petty revenge against someone who no longer possed a threat against his criminal enterprise.

Bozzok is basically a gangster, and it's gangster 101 that revenge is an important part of the business. When someone wrongs you, you must wrong them back, and far worse at that, or it's basically an open invitation for other criminal types to think you weak and begin attacking with impunity. Given how badly Haley humiliated Bozzok, he has to spare no expenses and take her life, lest his reputation as a fearsome crime boss take a hit.

[dps]

3rd panel "raising you from the dead to build me the perfect..." Grubwyggler was raised in such a way as to be bound/obligated to Bozzok?


I don't think he's bound to Bozzok in any way, that's just the reason that Bozzok had him raised. I suppose he's obligated to Bozzok in the sense that Bozzok probably told him something along the lines of, "I had you killed. Then I had you raised. I can have you killed again. And there's no one lining up to have you raised again. However, instead of having you killed again, there's a job you can do for me if you're interested". I figure most people would take the job, under the circumstances.

[Bulldog Psion]

Given how badly Haley humiliated Bozzok, he has to spare no expenses and take her life, lest his reputation as a fearsome crime boss take a hit.

Yes, exactly, otherwise it's:

"The Don, rest in peace, was slippin'..."

[Pinball Wizard]

Hm, interesting how Bozzok found Haley in random city pretty much immediately when she was travelling on an airship during colossal storm. That was some Epic grade tracking rolls.


Bozzok has diviners on his staff. Remember, Old Blind Pete had his hideout scry-proofed, meaning that he apparently was worried about Bozzok scrying it. I think there was a line where he explicitly confirmed this, but I'm not sure.

[Gusion]

Note to self: If ever in a town inhabited entirely by small creatures and there is one house strangely built for medium sized creatures - immediately either investigate or burn it down, depending on my character's alignment at the time.

[HendoJ]

Just Roy, not anybody else in the party.

Elan already knows.

Belkar and Durkula would be like: "We honestly don't see any problem with that deed. Rock on, rogue buddy!"

Vaarsuvius wouldn't care about just one murder... :smalleek:

One of Roy's best attributes is his pragmatism, he would understand the position Haley was in and the action she needed to take.

He may be a bit put out that Haley took advantage of a defenceless opponent though (because LG honor and such). The situation itself clearly demonstrates that Haley is in a life-or-death struggle with these people.
The biggest risk I see is to Durkula, because this is something Durkon would absolutely not be ok with.

[Gusion]

The biggest risk I see is to Durkula, because this is something Durkon would absolutely not be ok with.

Wait, what?

Why?

[asorel]

Wait, what?

Why?

As evidenced by his decision to obey the laws of the Empire of Blood even though they were unjust, Durkon takes a more absolutist approach to the LG alignment than Roy does. Not full-on stereotypical Lawful Stupid, but closer to that point than Roy is.

[Keltest]

As evidenced by his decision to obey the laws of the Empire of Blood even though they were unjust, Durkon takes a more absolutist approach to the LG alignment than Roy does. Not full-on stereotypical Lawful Stupid, but closer to that point than Roy is.

I suspect that Durkon would not view a Thieves' Guild as a legitimate authority, nor Haley bound to a contract that had been broken by the other party. No, the only issue here is 'Murder! Bad!" versus "Necessity! Good!"

good being the intelligent decision, in this case, rather than the moral one.

[Jasdoif]

...nor Haley bound to a contract that had been broken by the other party.A contract made without Haley's assent, even.

[Keltest]

A contract made without Haley's assent, even.

Aye. I suspect Celia is going to have to spend an extra semester or two if word of that particular deal gets back to her professors.

[Peelee]

As evidenced by his decision to obey the laws of the Empire of Blood even though they were unjust, Durkon takes a more absolutist approach to the LG alignment than Roy does. Not full-on stereotypical Lawful Stupid, but closer to that point than Roy is.

So you think Roy didn't have papers because of civil disobedience?

[Gusion]

As evidenced by his decision to obey the laws of the Empire of Blood even though they were unjust, Durkon takes a more absolutist approach to the LG alignment than Roy does. Not full-on stereotypical Lawful Stupid, but closer to that point than Roy is.

Or maybe Durkon isn't Miko and doesn't want to get distracted at every little injustice. They do have a quest to finish sometimes before the world ends.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The double standard for OotS and the bad guys is just getting annoying.

Bozzok's underling kills Grubwiggler --> Grubwiggler loyally follows his orders
Haley kills Crystal --> Crystal comes back hellbent on murdering her

:smallannoyed:

Bozzok's shown himself to be a rather dull-witted, short-sighted a-hole. Hopefully this time Haley actually gets to shine and kills him. Loved seeing Belkar destroying the guild, but this is Haley's rival, and she's getting made worthless way too much, almost as much as Elan now (and him being useless is expected).

[asorel]

So you think Roy didn't have papers because of civil disobedience?

No, I'm just saying that Roy would be more willing to break Durkon out instead of jumping through legal hoops, should their situations have been reversed.

[Psyren]

I am amazed that Crystal got a Death Attack to actually work, given her low intelligence score. Well I guess natural 1's always fail.

Given Crystal's level (i.e. equal to Haley's) it likely would have one-shot Grubby whether he made his save or not.


As evidenced by his decision to obey the laws of the Empire of Blood even though they were unjust, Durkon takes a more absolutist approach to the LG alignment than Roy does. Not full-on stereotypical Lawful Stupid, but closer to that point than Roy is.

Except they know Durkon is evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) They just don't know it's not him, or that he has ulterior motives; they think he's a team player but vicious, like Belkar. They should know that he snapped Z's neck after all.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Haley screwed up big time when she cut the deal off.

Bozzok's a petty dimwit who payed hundreds of thousands of gold and trekked all the way out here just to get revenge on her for "humiliating" him in his own guild (where, at the time, he was trying to KILL her and she was fighting to survive).

He totally would've kept his word on the deal. *rolls eyes*

[nyjastul69]

One of the weaker comics imho. Well, despite some funny moments ("I'm going to tear off your head and hit you in the FACE with it!"). But it seemed like most of this one was about justifying the plot.

Well, now that we've got that covered, let's move back to better material.

Yes indeed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As evidenced by his decision to obey the laws of the Empire of Blood even though they were unjust, Durkon takes a more absolutist approach to the LG alignment than Roy does. Not full-on stereotypical Lawful Stupid, but closer to that point than Roy is.

Honestly, Durkon comes off as more Lawful Neutral than LG, in part because he's rarely used for Good speeches but gets plenty of Lawful ones.

[Keltest]

Honestly, Durkon comes off as more Lawful Neutral than LG, in part because he's rarely used for Good speeches but gets plenty of Lawful ones.

Frankly, I think "good" gets underrated because in many ways its just expected behavior. We don't see Durkon stop to help little old ladies cross the street because they tend to travel in areas void of old ladies, little or otherwise. They don't do terribly many side quests where Durkon can decline a reward for, and Roy is the leader to make that call regardless.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

Bozzok is happy to use rules to exploit others, but he does run a Thieves Guild. Plus whenever rules and contracts get in his way he's quick to break them. 'Oh, I'm contractually bound not to murder Haley? Crystal, go murder Haley and make it look like an accident' (during the Get Roy bonus arc).

My apologize, I missed the bonus arc :)

[Zmeoaice]

The double standard for OotS and the bad guys is just getting annoying.

Bozzok's underling kills Grubwiggler --> Grubwiggler loyally follows his orders
Haley kills Crystal --> Crystal comes back hellbent on murdering her

That's not really a double standard. Crystal wanted to kill Haley before she died, and Bozzok didn't kill Grubs himself, and Crystal was turned into a monstrosity which Grub might find fitting.

[ORione]

I wonder if the Giant named Crystal Crystal in anticipation of making crystal golem puns.

[oppyu]

My apologize, I missed the bonus arc :)
No worries, everyone who doesn't buy the books misses them. And that's like the one time something plot-relevant has been relegated to people who buy paper only.

[ti'esar]

No worries, everyone who doesn't buy the books misses them. And that's like the one time something plot-relevant has been relegated to people who buy paper only.

Well, unless you count SOD...

[Particle_Man]

The double standard for OotS and the bad guys is just getting annoying.

Bozzok's underling kills Grubwiggler --> Grubwiggler loyally follows his orders
Haley kills Crystal --> Crystal comes back hellbent on murdering her

:smallannoyed:

Grubwiggler gets to make a cool golem, so there could be some professional pride here. :smallcool:

And at least Bozzok confines his villainous gloating to his minion, and doesn't do it in front of the heroes. Haley may suspect Bozzok's involvement but doesn't know where he is yet. That may change if Bozzok breaks cover to follow the fight, though.

[Darth Paul]

WOW!! Thanks to the new art style and the flashback to Grubwiggler's, I have had a long-standing question answered- Haley's old outfit was sleeveless!!! There was really no way to tell before, considering that Roy's full plate and Haley's bare arms were both identical black sticks!

From the angle, it's hard to tell, but it looks like it might be backless, too. I am rejoicing over here. Haley has never looked better (although of course I primarily regard her as a fellow human being and respect her for her career as a universe-saving hero).

(Ahh, who am I kidding? Haley looks hot in the flashback! I need to get my wife a Haley costume!!)

[CptPinkamena]

The double standard for OotS and the bad guys is just getting annoying.

Bozzok's underling kills Grubwiggler --> Grubwiggler loyally follows his orders
Haley kills Crystal --> Crystal comes back hellbent on murdering her

:smallannoyed:

Bozzok's shown himself to be a rather dull-witted, short-sighted a-hole. Hopefully this time Haley actually gets to shine and kills him. Loved seeing Belkar destroying the guild, but this is Haley's rival, and she's getting made worthless way too much, almost as much as Elan now (and him being useless is expected).

Grubwriggler got rezzed (I imagine for free, since Bozzok would essentially be asking a favor to have Grubwriggler work for him at all and it would clear the slates of him having had to pay for the resurrection in the first place), and got to have exquisite (and slightly demented) revenge on an individual that we assume has been a serious pain in every manner possible from their first meeting. (Turning Crystal into a golem).

And then get paid for doing it, and then get paid extra for making sure she was conscious of the horror she'd become.

Then get to send her after Hailey, who is really the one responsible for the whole fiasco that resulted in his death to begin with.

Why wouldn't Grubwriggler, a demonstrated sociopath, jump at the chance?

It's also been established that Crystal is mentally denser than lead crushed in Superman's fist, and unable to take the long view because of her blind rages.

[rbetieh]

My only reaction after reading this strip....where are Bozzoks Knees?

[oppyu]

Grubwriggler got rezzed (I imagine for free, since Bozzok would essentially be asking a favor to have Grubwriggler work for him at all and it would clear the slates of him having had to pay for the resurrection in the first place), and got to have exquisite (and slightly demented) revenge on an individual that we assume has been a serious pain in every manner possible from their first meeting. (Turning Crystal into a golem).

And then get paid for doing it, and then get paid extra for making sure she was conscious of the horror she'd become.

Then get to send her after Hailey, who is really the one responsible for the whole fiasco that resulted in his death to begin with.

Why wouldn't Grubwriggler, a demonstrated sociopath, jump at the chance?

It's also been established that Crystal is mentally denser than lead crushed in Superman's fist, and unable to take the long view because of her blind rages.
To be fair it was probably an awkward conversation when Bozzok recruited Grubwiggler. "So yeah, my associate killed you while we were robbing your place. Water under the bridge?"

[Bulldog Psion]

To be fair it was probably an awkward conversation when Bozzok recruited Grubwiggler. "So yeah, my associate killed you while we were robbing your place. Water under the bridge?"

Yes, that's true. And it's also probably true that Grubwiggler pretty much has to swallow it, regardless of his actual feelings. The guild killed him once and probably can do so again if he fails to tow the line. I mean "made him an offer he couldn't refuse" keeps going through my mind here. :smallbiggrin:

The only reason Haley could refuse the offer was that she's a high level adventurer with a band of other high level adventurers to back her up. Grubwiggler appears to be an expert, who is skilled in his field and has some golems, but is basically helpless in a fight. I doubt he can stand up to Bozzok and hope to live.

True, he could run -- but we see the lengths Bozzok is willing to go to in order to assure nobody escapes his control once they're in it.

[Kareasint]

Or perhaps that Bozzack isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. That and he may not have a lot of knowledge in terms of the party members, he may not even have seen anyone but Belkar. Hank, probably believes (rightly) that Bozzack will end up on the wrong end of a fireball or Holy Smite. Which may lead to an easy transition of power assuming Hank is already in charge in B's absence.

Which is why I thought that he would not be dumb enough to run after Haley. Hank is probably setting up shop and coming up with plans to deal with Bozzok if he somehow returns.


Thanks Bozzok, for the cutting of many epileptic trees. :smalltongue:

Enough to build a log cabin.

[Neoriceisgood]

Ah yes, the age old trick of going around the corner.

It has foiled many plans indeed.

[MReav]

I'm guessing Grubwiggler is having a long-con revenge scheme against the Greysky City Thieves' Guild as a whole, because I cannot believe that he'd willingly work for Bozzok after the numerous times his guild has screwed him. He pays for their 5 star protection and when he demands that they render services to him after one of their own semingly robs from him, they launch a full-scale invasion of his premises instead, wreck his golems and murder him and his subordinates.

[rafet]

[QUOTE=Kareasint;18759647]Which is why I thought that he would not be dumb enough to run after Haley. Hank is probably setting up shop and coming up with plans to deal with Bozzok if he somehow returns. [\QUOTE]

I don't think it's entirely stupid to chase down Haley. Bozzack has to go after Haley, the whole town believes she came back after killing some big hot shot leader of an adventure party. Which was suppose to put people in fear of the guild. But when she broke the deal again, she made the guild look incredibly weak. One of the most sure fire way to ensure that people fear them, is to go after the person who humiliated them.

Hank could very well be setting up shop, and Grubwiggler may be looking forward to working with him.

[bguy]

Which is why I thought that he would not be dumb enough to run after Haley. Hank is probably setting up shop and coming up with plans to deal with Bozzok if he somehow returns.

If Hank wanted to take over the guild, wouldn't he have just let Haley finish off Bozzok the last time they tangled rather than convincing her to let Bozzok live. Hank seems to want Bozzok in charge of the Guild. (Presumably because Bozzok is deadly enough to maintain the Guild's territory in Greysky City but not smart enough to realize Hank is robbing him blind.)

[Keltest]

If Hank wanted to take over the guild, wouldn't he have just let Haley finish off Bozzok the last time they tangled rather than convincing her to let Bozzok live. Hank seems to want Bozzok in charge of the Guild. (Presumably because Bozzok is deadly enough to maintain the Guild's territory in Greysky City but not smart enough to realize Hank is robbing him blind.)

I seem to recall Hank being among the group of people chasing Celia for her alleged treasure because his financial prospects were not so great that he could afford to let such a treasure go. I doubt he is fleecing Bozzok or the guild for any significant amount of cash. he could be ruling from the sidelines though, because he did not care for the idea of non-Bozzok parties moving in to take over crime.

[Quild]

If Hank wanted to take over the guild, wouldn't he have just let Haley finish off Bozzok the last time they tangled rather than convincing her to let Bozzok live. Hank seems to want Bozzok in charge of the Guild. (Presumably because Bozzok is deadly enough to maintain the Guild's territory in Greysky City but not smart enough to realize Hank is robbing him blind.)
We don't know if Hank takes a lot from Bozzok. Probably not.

I think Bozzok doesn't know, mostly because Hank and Haley seems to think that it's a favor from Haley not to tell Bozzok and also because I don't think really much of Bozzok.
But maybe Bozzok knows and considers that it's a mere inconvenience. Maybe the important thing is that Bozzok can ignore this as long as no one knows he know.

Everytime I've readed On the Origin of PCs these last years, I readed that Hank was aiming from the top instead of skimming from it. I didn't knew that word and understood it that way while never checking it's true meaning.
I believed that for years until lately. It makes it hard for me to have a vision of Hank not trying to take Bozzok place :(


When Hank made the deal saving Bozzok, there was a supposedly huge profit at it. On the other hand, not doing the deal would have let the guild badly hurted.

[HendoJ]

Except they know Durkon is evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) They just don't know it's not him, or that he has ulterior motives; they think he's a team player but vicious, like Belkar. They should know that he snapped Z's neck after all.

Yes they know he's evil, but they're assuming that he still has the same character. As Belkar pointed out, change in character takes time. Durkula's success thus far has been built on the fact that his actions towards Roy, Haley, Elan and V have been consistent and predictable (and they want to believe he's the same). There hasn't been a situation (yet) where he's had to do anything but mimic Durkon's accent.


If Hank wanted to take over the guild, wouldn't he have just let Haley finish off Bozzok the last time they tangled rather than convincing her to let Bozzok live. Hank seems to want Bozzok in charge of the Guild. (Presumably because Bozzok is deadly enough to maintain the Guild's territory in Greysky City but not smart enough to realize Hank is robbing him blind.)

Hank mentioned it took a year of violence for bozzok to take over. If Hank has been put in charge by Bozzok, the power structure is already in place and it's a clean transition if Bozzok just doesn't come back. That's a much better prospect for getting power and keeping your head.

[jidasfire]

Honestly, Durkon comes off as more Lawful Neutral than LG, in part because he's rarely used for Good speeches but gets plenty of Lawful ones.

I'll take issue with this. It's true Durkon is the most lawful member of the party, as Roy canonically straddles the line between LG and NG and only comes up on the former side because he's trying to. Thus does he get to demonstrate lawful behavior more obviously than the rest of the party. That said, I would argue Durkon has shown his goodness on several occasions as well. Not the least being the time he essentially fought a much more powerful foe on his own to protect the life of someone he didn't even particularly like, and died happily because at least his friends were safe as a result. If you don't think that's good, I'm not sure what is.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'll take issue with this. It's true Durkon is the most lawful member of the party, as Roy canonically straddles the line between LG and NG and only comes up on the former side because he's trying to. Thus does he get to demonstrate lawful behavior more obviously than the rest of the party. That said, I would argue Durkon has shown his goodness on several occasions as well. Not the least being the time he essentially fought a much more powerful foe on his own to protect the life of someone he didn't even particularly like, and died happily because at least his friends were safe as a result. If you don't think that's good, I'm not sure what is.

Oh, yes, he's definitely good. He's also kind of a hidebound jackass, but that doesn't keep him from being aligned good. :smallbiggrin: As I've often noted, alignment isn't a popularity contest.

[Skull the Troll]

Well, unless you count SOD...

You dont need the SOD to understand the story so far, its just nice "extra knowledge" Its been stated in the strip that Xykon/Redcloak have taken out Lirans gate, and you don't really need to know more than that to understand why Roy doesn't consider it a target worth protecting.

[YossarianLives]

My only reaction after reading this strip....where are Bozzoks Knees?
Oh my god, your right.

What a twist!

[Fralex]

She
Is the Crystal Gol'm
She'll always win the fray
And if you think she can't
She'll
Always find a way!
That's why Bozzok and
Grub-
Wigg-
Ler
Have faith in
Costly
Self-aware
Constructs...
And (their) hate in (Haley)!

Ugh, almost got it. Can't come up with a decent end rhyme...

[Peelee]

You dont need the SOD to understand the story so far, its just nice "extra knowledge" Its been stated in the strip that Xykon/Redcloak have taken out Lirans gate, and you don't really need to know more than that to understand why Roy doesn't consider it a target worth protecting.

You don't need any of the bonus material to understand the story so far, or ever. Even the bit about Grubwiggler dying was shown in the online strip as soon as he showed back up.

[Killer Angel]

Ah yes, the age old trick of going around the corner.

We're talking about experienced adventurers, after all!

[Bulldog Psion]

Oh my god, your right.

What a twist!

Where are anyone's knees? :smallbiggrin: I don't see any on Haley or Bandana, either, for example -- their legs just sort of bend all along their length.

[goodpeople25]

Where are anyone's knees? :smallbiggrin: I don't see any on Haley or Bandana, either, for example -- their legs just sort of bend all along their length.

Ya next their going to ask wheres the weird bumpy things bewtween the eyes are.

[Snails]

Honestly, Durkon comes off as more Lawful Neutral than LG, in part because he's rarely used for Good speeches but gets plenty of Lawful ones.

To be fair, few outright evil actions by members of the party miss the scrutiny of Elan and Roy. However chaotic behaviors happen all the time without comment, and Roy himself so indulges on occasion.

tl;dr -- Durkon does not need to speak up about evil.

[Snails]

Grubwiggler gets to make a cool golem, so there could be some professional pride here. :smallcool:

And at least Bozzok confines his villainous gloating to his minion, and doesn't do it in front of the heroes. Haley may suspect Bozzok's involvement but doesn't know where he is yet. That may change if Bozzok breaks cover to follow the fight, though.

How long is the list of people who would bring back Crystal from the dead? I suspect the number would fit on one finger.

As one of Bozzok's tools of enforcing his guild rules, plenty would prefer her to stay dead, in fact.

Haley is a sharp cookie. She would absolutely guess that Bozzok is in town.

[Keltest]

How long is the list of people who would bring back Crystal from the dead? I suspect the number would fit on one finger.

As one of Bozzok's tools of enforcing his guild rules, plenty would prefer her to stay dead, in fact.

Haley is a sharp cookie. She would absolutely guess that Bozzok is in town.

I think the point is less "She doesn't know where he is" so much as 'She doesn't have a line of sight to use her bow on him."

[goto124]

Or 'she's too busy running away from Crystal Golem to think about stuff like that'.

[Bulldog Psion]

Ya next their going to ask wheres the weird bumpy things bewtween the eyes are.

Or, horror of horrors, where their thumbs are! :smallwink:

[happycrow]

Agreed with goto. Having spent a lot of time bouncing around a ring with gloves and mouthguard, I can definitely say that when I'm up against somebody every bit as good as I am or better, my brain isn't thinking about extraneous details. AT least, not if I want to avoid a round-one-tko.

[Sir_Leorik]

Bwahaha so it WAS a crystal Golem.

No, it's a Crystal golem, not to be confused with the actual monster made of animated crystals. :smallwink:


Well, THAT was definitive. Hadn't expected Grubby to actually travel with Bozzok, either.

Neither did I. I think Grubby might be planning to betray Bozzok at some point.


Hmmm... I wonder how Bozzok plans on countering the rest of the Order?

He has a Crystal golem; what more does he need? Of course one of the members of the Order is now a Vampire, so I am eagerly anticipating Durkon vs. Crystal, in the Universal Monsters tradition!

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention that Bozzok is looking more and more Evil each time he appears. He decided not to pay to raise any of the low-level Rogues killed by Haley and Belkar? How did Hank agree to that? Did Bozzok murder Hank? Is Hank on the run from Bozzok?

[ti'esar]

Or, horror of horrors, where their thumbs are! :smallwink:

Their what?

[Ramien]

Their what?

Thumbs. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0778.html) We're pretty sure they have those, at least.

[Rogar Demonblud]

After what Rich went through with his, he may have felt it was more merciful to spare them that pain.:smallwink:

[ti'esar]

Thumbs. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0778.html) We're pretty sure they have those, at least.

Elan doesn't seem so sure about that...

[Ramien]

Elan doesn't seem so sure about that...

Yes, but unless they're wearing gloves, their hands are invisible anyway, if you want to follow Elan's lead.

[Darth Paul]

Yes, but unless they're wearing gloves, their hands are invisible anyway, if you want to follow Elan's lead.

If you yourself are posting this while following Elan's lead, please keep it to yourself.

[Trurl]

When Bozzok opens the small window of the front door, he horizontally slides a blind. However, when we see him staring through the window, there's a door-coloured bar at the top of the window, giving the impression that he had lifted some kind of lid vertically. Why is that? Trick of light?

[snowblizz]

When Bozzok opens the small window of the front door, he horizontally slides a blind. However, when we see him staring through the window, there's a door-coloured bar at the top of the window, giving the impression that he had lifted some kind of lid vertically. Why is that? Trick of light?
That would be the rail holding the slide in place I imagine. The details a stick-figure comic can have is impressive.

[warmachine]

The "rip your head off and hit you in the face with it" line reminds me of the first person shooter Quake, where you can sometimes see your own head fly off.

[Quild]

You dont need the SOD to understand the story so far, its just nice "extra knowledge" Its been stated in the strip that Xykon/Redcloak have taken out Lirans gate, and you don't really need to know more than that to understand why Roy doesn't consider it a target worth protecting.

You clearly don't need SoD to understand why Roy doesn't consider it a target worth protecting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)

Also, about Kragaar gate.. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

[Jay R]

Elan doesn't seem so sure about that...

That proves nothing. There are a lot of things that Elan doesn't seem so sure about.

[goto124]

Haley's unibrow when Crystal says the 'hit you in the face' line. And all these while I thought it was a :roy: thing to do.

[Bulldog Psion]

If you yourself are posting this while following Elan's lead, please keep it to yourself.

:elan: I'm using the computer while invisible!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Ramien]

If you yourself are posting this while following Elan's lead, please keep it to yourself.

I will neither confirm nor deny anything, but I will point out that you can't see me right now, can you?


Haley's unibrow when Crystal says the 'hit you in the face' line. And all these while I thought it was a :roy: thing to do.

Where do you think she learned it from?

[eusticepious]

I don't think he's bound to Bozzok in any way, that's just the reason that Bozzok had him raised. I suppose he's obligated to Bozzok in the sense that Bozzok probably told him something along the lines of, "I had you killed. Then I had you raised. I can have you killed again. And there's no one lining up to have you raised again. However, instead of having you killed again, there's a job you can do for me if you're interested". I figure most people would take the job, under the circumstances.

Maybe that's all there is too, he's controlled by fear of a brutal mobster. Some characters faced with that look for freedom at every opportunity (i.e. Ian Starshine).

[Jay R]

I will neither confirm nor deny anything, but I will point out that you can't see me right now, can you?

I will neither confirm nor deny anything, but I will point out that you don't know what I can see right now, do you?

[Trubbol]

Or maybe Durkon isn't Miko and doesn't want to get distracted at every little injustice. They do have a quest to finish sometimes before the world ends.

But what if.... Durkon is Miko?

[littlebum2002]

But what if.... Durkon is Miko?

THAT'S why he never fought her!

[Emperordaniel]

But what if.... Durkon is Miko?

And they're both Trigak! :elan:

[Ramien]

I will neither confirm nor deny anything, but I will point out that you don't know what I can see right now, do you?

The lead sheets lining my room say 'Stop invading my privacy, you scrying fiend!'

[SavageWombat]

And they're both Trigak! :elan:

They can't both be Trigak, they'd have to be two-thirds of Trigak.

[Jasdoif]

The lead sheets lining my room say 'Stop invading my privacy, you scrying fiend!'I would think the bigger concern is whoever got inside your room to cast magic mouth on your lead sheets.

[Ramien]

I would think the bigger concern is whoever got inside your room to cast magic mouth on your lead sheets.

Oh, I did that myself for the ambiance. That and it creeps out the people who actually try and sneak in instead of scrying.

[Porthos]

But what if.... Durkon is Miko?


And they're both Trigak! :elan:


They can't both be Trigak, they'd have to be two-thirds of Trigak.

The last third is Therkla/Redcloak's niece. I thought everyone knew that.:smallwink:

[Peelee]

The lead sheets lining my room say 'Stop invading my privacy, you scrying fiend!'

It's not scrying. It's just the drones and GPS locating implants like we used on Grey Wolf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18627699&postcount=282). With a few cameras just to be sure. With night vision and infrared.

[Quild]

Whaaaaat. Trigak can't be other persons. What kind of fiction would that be if some characters were several persons?

On another hand, anyone could be Trigak's mate.

btw, nice sig Porthos! I love Taltos stories!

[One Skunk Todd]

I'm curious where the bump/lump/growth on Grubwiggler's head went. Maybe he had it removed?

Retrophrenology

[One Skunk Todd]

When Bozzok opens the small window of the front door, he horizontally slides a blind. However, when we see him staring through the window, there's a door-coloured bar at the top of the window, giving the impression that he had lifted some kind of lid vertically. Why is that? Trick of light?

I think that's supposed to give an impression of the thickness of the door. Why there's a thick (armored?) door with a tiny viewport next to a huge plate glass window I don't quite understand. :)

[Bulldog Psion]

I think that's supposed to give an impression of the thickness of the door. Why there's a thick (armored?) door with a tiny viewport next to a huge plate glass window I don't quite understand. :)

The window is boarded up on the outside. My wild guess would be that the building was acquired, then modified for guild use by boarding up the window and installing the door with the peephole.

[GM_3826]

Wow, 8 pages already? Skiiip.
Anyways, thoughts on the update:
1. Yup, still glad that's Bozzok. Thog is overrated, and some deaths need to be permanent, no?
2. Of course, that doesn't mean all of them. Not exactly surprised Grubwiggler had been revived, but I definitely would have been if he popped up before Crystal. Wonder if they've ever had to do this sort of thing before.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

, and some deaths need to be permanent, no?

Actually, unlike Grubwiggler, whether or not Thog is dead was purposely left unclear by The Giant. It would be unlikely for him to show up on the Northern Continent, but it's not all that out there that he's still alive.

[GM_3826]

Actually, unlike Grubwiggler, whether or not Thog is dead was purposely left unclear by The Giant. It would be unlikely for him to show up on the Northern Continent, but it's not all that out there that he's still alive.

Damn it.
Well, at least his master is.

[Ramien]

Actually, unlike Grubwiggler, whether or not Thog is dead was purposely left unclear by The Giant. It would be unlikely for him to show up on the Northern Continent, but it's not all that out there that he's still alive.

I'm certainly hoping he is dead, though, or at least out of the story. The Linear Guild is gone, and Thog had his big fight with Roy and lost, with Roy getting his chance to give a verbal and physcial beatdown to him. There's no conflict to the character, and I don't think Sabine's quite attached enough to him (or able to control him) enough to drag him along on her next mission, even if he did survive, which gives him even less reason to get back involved...

Until Belkar dies and we get a bloodbath through the underworld, of course.

[Rakoa]

I've heard it said before, and I'm a firm believer that the ambiguity of Thog's death was intentional so as to prevent people from guessing that the Linear Guild was over and done with (culminating in the death of Zz'dtri and Nale, later on). Thog is a long-standing and popular character, so seeing an obvious death complete with X'ed eyes would have been a warning alarm for some. So, Rich was able to subvert a trope and prevent predictions in one action.

[ti'esar]

I've heard it said before, and I'm a firm believer that the ambiguity of Thog's death was intentional so as to prevent people from guessing that the Linear Guild was over and done with (culminating in the death of Zz'dtri and Nale, later on). Thog is a long-standing and popular character, so seeing an obvious death complete with X'ed eyes would have been a warning alarm for some. So, Rich was able to subvert a trope and prevent predictions in one action.

That's a believable argument, but the thing that bugs me about it is that he didn't say anything about Thog's fate in BRitF's commentary. I know the "if it wasn't a profitable line of speculation, Rich would shut it down" argument doesn't entirely hold up, but I still feel that if Thog's death was supposed to be ambiguous only to avoid giving away the end of the Linear Guild as a whole, then it would have been confirmed by now that he was definitely dead.

[Rakoa]

That's a believable argument, but the thing that bugs me about it is that he didn't say anything about Thog's fate in BRitF's commentary. I know the "if it wasn't a profitable line of speculation, Rich would shut it down" argument doesn't entirely hold up, but I still feel that if Thog's death was supposed to be ambiguous only to avoid giving away the end of the Linear Guild as a whole, then it would have been confirmed by now that he was definitely dead.

That's a rather good point. I can see it going either way. There is something more going on with Thog, or if Rich simply didn't feel he was worth mentioning. I still think he's dead as can be, though, mostly because I can't think of any narrative or plot value to be had with his return, or even survival.

[GAAD]

:thog: but thog is funny, pointy teeth man. funny is master of story. thog been spending time in grammar school; thog just learned how to use semicolons!

[Porthos]

btw, nice sig Porthos! I love Taltos stories!

Thanks! It's always been a quote I've loved. Truth be told, and this is kinda embarrassing, I only put it in my sig years ago when the forum was going through a particularly nasty (even for here :smallwink:) magic v mundane flamefest. And rather than take part in the endless drudgery, I just added that to my sig as a slilent protest.

Yeah, I know. Kinda petty, but there you are. :smalltongue: But that was such a long time ago, that the reason I keep it now is that I love it to pieces for its own sake. That it eventually got subverted later on when a certain wizard came back into the picture is entirely besides the point. :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

[Rakoa]

I only read the first book, Jhereg, and absolutely loved it. Brilliant writing how the villain' plan all revolved around his own death. Though I was pulling my hair out when I saw a hole in the plan, buuut the characters did not. Ah well. :P

[Quild]

@Porthos : The only one I haven't read yet is Hawk. I don't like hardcovers so I'm waiting for paperback. Currently reading "The paths of the dead".

So I see what you make reference to! Still cramped his style :p
Did you stop at this book? :smallconfused:



I only read the first book, Jhereg, and absolutely loved it. Brilliant writing how the villain' plan all revolved around his own death. Though I was pulling my hair out when I saw a hole in the plan, buuut the characters did not. Ah well. :P
Jhereg may be one of the best because it's fresh and new.
I never understood why some people complains about Yendi being to close form Jhereg. Douglas Kennedy has a lot (all?) of his stories with the same kind of development (starts midly unhappy, goes worse, goes way better, goes way worse since it falls from high, ends midly happy) and they are great!
I've never been fond of Teckla, but for my third reading I found it better than I remembered.
Taltos... Now we have great stuff!
Phoenix is better than Teckla but lacks something.

Not going to list them all, but when you reach Dragon, Issola and Dzur, you're likely to think that Brust is one of the best authors ever! I've heard Hawk was really good too.

[LeSwordfish]

My personal theory is that at either the very last moment or some significant other "last" moment- Stick Vs Durkula? Sabine and Thog will appear on the side of team Stick. Unless Sabine's Banishing stops that?

Durkon banished Sabine... could Durkula restore her?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Sabine's banishment was only for 24 hours - that should be long since over.

She can plane shift herself (although in #380, she says it's only supposed to be used in emergencies), and, as seen in #385, she can hitch a lift on other entities plane-shift abilities.

As for Thog, while no one's dead until we've seen the body (and sometimes not even then), just because we haven't seen his body doesn't automatically mean he's coming back.

[Bulldog Psion]

Interesting question: would Tarquin consider Thog to be a sufficiently valuable arena crowd-pleaser to resurrect him if he was killed by the rubble?

[Keltest]

Interesting question: would Tarquin consider Thog to be a sufficiently valuable arena crowd-pleaser to resurrect him if he was killed by the rubble?

Unlikely. Remember, Tarquin WANTED Thog dead, he just couldn't do it subtly, because it would upset the crowd. if Thog lost a gladiator match fairly (which he did), that's what he wanted to happen.

[rafet]

I hope at the end, Elan convinces the guild to get some ice cream to celebrate their victory and Thog is there serving it.

[Zea mays]

In 0778 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) Tarquin seems quite hopeful that Thog would finally die in combat. He doesn't seem to fussed about the Half Orc's fate when talking to Roy after the duel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html). I suspect that he would prefer to find Thog dead, but would be only moderately dissapointed to dig him up alive. What would really offend his narrative sensibilities would be the eventuality of Thog's fate being left ambiguous.

[Peelee]

In 0778 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html)What would really offend his narrative sensibilities would be the eventuality of Thog's fate being left ambiguous.

And what would offend them more would be if he was defeated off-screen, with little to no fanfare at all, only to be mentioned as a footnote to the end of the story. Come to think of it, what an excellent way to defeat Tarquin! He doesn't win by even his own logic.

[Doug Lampert]

Thanks! It's always been a quote I've loved. Truth be told, and this is kinda embarrassing, I only put it in my sig years ago when the forum was going through a particularly nasty (even for here :smallwink:) magic v mundane flamefest. And rather than take part in the endless drudgery, I just added that to my sig as a slilent protest.

Yeah, I know. Kinda petty, but there you are. :smalltongue: But that was such a long time ago, that the reason I keep it now is that I love it to pieces for its own sake. That it eventually got subverted later on when a certain wizard came back into the picture is entirely besides the point. :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

IIRC it was subverted IN THE SAME BOOK it was stated in. At the climax Aliera is busy casting spells and fighting and gets a great sword entirely through her torso, back to front, and her style isn't noticeably cramped at all. She keeps on fighting and casting spells and then heals herself afterward. (Certainly that happens in the series, and I think its the same book that first gives us the knife between the shoulder blades quote.)

And at least once Vlad hits the bad-guy from behind, and has it bounce off his shield spell. The badguy isn't temporarily inconvenienced by the knife from behind until Vlad uses magic to take the shield down. I think that actually happens at least three times in different parts of the series. It's a good thing Vlad as an artifact level anti-magic item isn't it, otherwise he might look almost futile except for the fact that he's a sorcerer himself, and a witch, and a psychic,....

The books are full of people to whom a non-magic knife in the back is a minor inconvenience at worst. Try that trick on Sethra if you really want to see how it works for you with a subtle wizard.

Vlad is an unreliable narrator, and never more so than with that quote in his setting.

DougL

[Reboot]

That's a rather good point. I can see it going either way. There is something more going on with Thog, or if Rich simply didn't feel he was worth mentioning. I still think he's dead as can be, though, mostly because I can't think of any narrative or plot value to be had with his return, or even survival.

How possible is it to raise a DnD character's intelligence by a big chunk as a one-off (through spells, items or whatever)? Because I could imagine "hey funny bard man" Thog turning up, and just as they think they'll have him easily, it turns out he's now smart.

[Keltest]

How possible is it to raise a DnD character's intelligence by a big chunk as a one-off (through spells, items or whatever)? Because I could imagine "hey funny bard man" Thog turning up, and just as they think they'll have him easily, it turns out he's now smart.

Depends on how long you need it to last. There are spells that give larger stat boosts but don't last very long in the grand scheme of things (Long enough for a combat, but not much else), while there are magical trinkets that raise it significantly less but last for as long as the item is worn.

That said, Thog is unlikely to make use of an enhanced intelligence score in combat. Roy managed to do so by sinking skill points into a Knowledge skill, but buffs wouldn't retroactively give Thog those skill points.

[Porthos]

@Porthos : The only one I haven't read yet is Hawk. I don't like hardcovers so I'm waiting for paperback. Currently reading "The paths of the dead".

So I see what you make reference to! Still cramped his style :p

True, true. :smallamused: Wasn't very pleased when a certain someone popped back into his life, either. :smalltongue:

Did you stop at this book? :smallconfused:

Oh, no, I've read them all. Like some more than others, but's that's to be expected in a series that has hit 20 books (if you account for the other Dragaera works).

Hawk, is pretty good, yes. I initially place it in the top third of his works. Not sure where within it though. Really have to do a reread one of these years of the entire series.


Try that trick on Sethra if you really want to see how it works for you with a subtle wizard.

Don't really want to get into spoilers, but calling Sethra a "wizard" is sorta selling her short. :smallwink:

[Breccia]

Really an underexplored facet of the D&D universe, imo. In a world where a potion can near-instantaneously fix up your massive head trauma, how good are the psychoactive drugs going to be??

True Story:
About 12 years ago, I was running a campaign which sent the players to a nearly god-abandoned alternate dimension in which the elves and drow got into a massive war, and the drow won by one surviving member to zero. In retaliation for the extinction of his entire race, that drow went lich, killed every last elf, burned all the forests, fouled all the seas, dragged the dimension up against Hades (blocking out almost all divine intervention from good deities, including most cleric spells), created magical ghost-golems that appeared when arcane spells were cast (killing the casters and anyone else nearby), and then he left. The PCs showed up 100 years later to see what was basically the last gasps of a dying world, unavoidably running out of food, water, oxygen, and hope.

A particular fungus (xoz, I think?) was the main source of sustainance, but if you dried it and smoked it, it caused blissful, vibrant hallucinations and 1d4 permanent Intelligence damage. A common form of "suicide" was to smoke yourself to an Int of 1 or 2, going catatonic and leaving the miserable world as everyone else knew it.

The party's cleric, who happened to be Lawful Evil, took great joy in finding these people and using the heal spell on them, undoing all of the effects and snapping them back into reality against their will.

Then, killing them.

It was funnier than it should have been.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmm, looking at some of the posts in this thread I may need to try out a new book series...

[Porthos]

Hmm, looking at some of the posts in this thread I may need to try out a new book series...

Fair warning: The writing style of the books can be radically different from one book to another. Brust will often tell a story in an entirely different way just to keep things fresh.

This can be a bit jarring in a few cases.

And the stories are absolutely not told in chronological order. So be warned there, as well.

However, the main constant is the snark. If you love deadpan snarkers who make wry asides all the time, then this is pretty much the series for you. :smalltongue:

Second Fair Warning: The series now known as the Khaavren Romances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaavren_Romances) are written in the style of Alexandre Dumas. Really really REALLY in the style of Dumas. A pastiche, really. It can be a bit.... overwhelming at first. :smalleek:

That being said, they're really good. :smallwink:

[Hexblade]

Wait... If Haley had wands, couldn't she use one that is not combat based? Like Teleport? Or Expeditious Retreat? Or Fly? Or ANYTHING?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Fair warning: The writing style of the books can be radically different from one book to another. Brust will often tell a story in an entirely different way just to keep things fresh.

This can be a bit jarring in a few cases.

And the stories are absolutely not told in chronological order. So be warned there, as well.

However, the main constant is the snark. If you love deadpan snarkers who make wry asides all the time, then this is pretty much the series for you. :smalltongue:

Second Fair Warning: The series now known as the Khaavren Romances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaavren_Romances) are written in the style of Alexandre Dumas. Really really REALLY in the style of Dumas. A pastiche, really. It can be a bit.... overwhelming at first. :smalleek:

That being said, they're really good. :smallwink:
Thanks for the warnings.

You know, I think I just realized what your username is.

[Porthos]

You know, I think I just realized what your username is.

It ain't the dog (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Porthos), that's for sure. :smalltongue:

[rodneyAnonymous]

Wait... If Haley had wands, couldn't she use one that is not combat based? Like Teleport? Or Expeditious Retreat? Or Fly? Or ANYTHING?

Not "anything": wands can only be made for spells 4th level and lower. Teleport is 5th level. The others, sure.

[Peelee]

Fair warning: The writing style of the books can be radically different from one book to another. Brust will often tell a story in an entirely different way just to keep things fresh.

This can be a bit jarring in a few cases.

And the stories are absolutely not told in chronological order. So be warned there, as well.

However, the main constant is the snark. If you love deadpan snarkers who make wry asides all the time, then this is pretty much the series for you. :smalltongue:

Second Fair Warning: The series now known as the Khaavren Romances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaavren_Romances) are written in the style of Alexandre Dumas. Really really REALLY in the style of Dumas. A pastiche, really. It can be a bit.... overwhelming at first. :smalleek:

That being said, they're really good. :smallwink:
A non-chronologically told story?!? Blasphemy! I'll go back to reading my Star Wars Extended Universe books as they come out, thank you very much. And I'ma punch the first one what says "It's 'Star Wars Legends' now."

For reals, though, I am also intrigued in this series. Though I've heard there's also this Dresden series or something I should read as well. My reading list seems to be inversely proportional to my free time these days.

It ain't the dog (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Porthos), that's for sure. :smalltongue:

Ya know, I often wondered whether it was the musketeer or the dog. And honestly, I always kind of rooted for the dog.

Now if I can solve the mystery behind oppyu's wall, most of my forumite conjecture will be wrapped up. Not all, of course, but the biggest ones.

[Porthos]

Ya know, I often wondered whether it was the musketeer or the dog. And honestly, I always kind of rooted for the dog.

Now if I can solve the mystery behind oppyu's wall, most of my forumite conjecture will be wrapped up. Not all, of course, but the biggest ones.

At the risk of losing cool points, it's actually because some friends of mine thought I looked a decent amount like Oliver Platt in the Disney version of The Three Musketeers movie. While I know it isn't the most beloved (or even halfway accurate) version of the tale, I liked it when it came out. Enough so to take "Porthos" as one of my main internet names, as that was also the time I really started using the internet more and more.

Hey, it was the early 90s. Don't judge me! :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

At the risk of losing cool points, it's actually because me and my friends thought I looked a decent amount like Oliver Platt in the Disney version of The Three Musketeers movie. While I know it isn't the most beloved (or even halfway accurate) version of the tale, I liked it when it came out.

Tim Curry's Richelieu is, I must admit, delightfully evil in it. "All for one ... and more for me."