[Dreamscarred Press] Presents: The MEDIC!

[Elricaltovilla]

Those of you who saw our free April Fool's Release (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483365-Dreamscarred-Press-April-Augmented-Free-Release!) yesterday might have been wondering what was up with the Ambu-lancer. Now that the national day of silliness has passed, I can finally answer that question.

This right here is the playtest for a brand new Path of War base class, the dedicated savior of overzealous Warlords, stubborn Warders and overeager Stalkers everywhere:

The Medic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkVJcjXIEZiZj_vpumo_8qy0TZfQl2hZ-tKV4rLnxLM/edit?usp=sharing)

Complete with four archetypes (including the Ambu-lancer, also in this playtest), favored class bonuses, and new feats, the medic brings a unique style of aggressive in combat healing to the table. So read, critique and enjoy!

[stack]

I fear ambu-lancer may be a bit too punny for a final release. Seems like there should be a suitable, more serious name, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[Elricaltovilla]

I fear ambu-lancer may be a bit too punny for a final release. Seems like there should be a suitable, more serious name, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

It will likely stay the way it is because of the release of the way the two were released. Ambu-lancer needs to be kept as part of the playtest so that it can be properly updated and remain compatible with the final version of the medic.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Sorry for ruining your surprise, man. :smallbiggrin:

[PsyBomb]

Glad this one's finally out the gate. I've always loved healer characters, and finally having a second good one to use is awesome

[Elricaltovilla]

Sorry for ruining your surprise, man. :smallbiggrin:

I was hoping someone would guess it, but I was also hoping that someone wouldn't link the reddit post :smalltongue:

[Ilorin Lorati]

Blame Keledrath, he's the one that made me hunt down where I heard it after I made an offhand comment in a game chat.

Is the Medic supposed to have just one good save?

The language in Witch Doctor should probably be tightened in the item creation sections; being able to craft the items doesn't mean much if they still don't have the spell to cast when working with trigger and completion items. Just adding something like "as if she had cast the spell while creating it" should be enough.

[Elricaltovilla]

Blame Keledrath, he's the one that made me hunt down where I heard it after I made an offhand comment in a game chat.

I always do.:smalltongue:


Is the Medic supposed to have just one good save?

Check the ability Cura Te Ipsum and tell me whether you think it needs two good saves. :smallwink:


The language in Witch Doctor should probably be tightened in the item creation sections; being able to craft the items doesn't mean much if they still don't have the spell to cast when working with trigger and completion items. Just adding something like "as if she had cast the spell while creating it" should be enough.

I'll take a closer look at the wording, thanks.

[Mehangel]

While I understand that DSP doesnt have anything against At-will healing, I would like to point out that there is no text stating that the medic cannot use the Triage ability outside of combat. I dont know if this was intentional.

[Elricaltovilla]

While I understand that DSP doesnt have anything against At-will healing, I would like to point out that there is no text stating that the medic cannot use the Triage ability outside of combat. I dont know if this was intentional.

That wording is actually contained within the PoW definition of "encounter" which is



An encounter is a period of time from when initiative begins (starting with the surprise round, if any) to the last initiative has ended and after a total time amount of one minute has elapsed without combat resuming. This means that martial disciples have had time to recover all expended maneuvers and abilities that are used and depleted within the span of an encounter.


As it's a per encounter ability, it can only be used during an encounter. But I can see the need for reminder/clarification text, and that is something I'm working on with help from some of the other writers.

[Ilorin Lorati]

That's what I get for reading without glasses, in bed, with a cat, before coffee. :smalleek: Sorry!

I'm continuing to read.

Angel of Mercy reminds me of a certain character in an upcoming video game. Intentional?

This is just begging for a full bad touch / torture archetype (Sanguinist almost counts, but most poisons and diseases aren't fast enough to be useful in most combat situations).

...Can a small Ambu-Lancer pull a medium or larger character on their mount? (I guess the same applies to medium and large, as well) Poor puppies. D:

[Elricaltovilla]

That's what I get for reading without glasses, in bed, with a cat, before coffee. :smalleek: Sorry!

I'm continuing to read.

Angel of Mercy reminds me of a certain character in an upcoming video game. Intentional?

Since I don't know what video game you're referencing I'm going to say "no." Which videogame are you referring to?


This is just begging for a full bad touch / torture archetype (Sanguinist almost counts, but most poisons and diseases aren't fast enough to be useful in most combat situations).

Sanguinist is about as bad touch as I want to get, it's worth noting that when they hit someone with a poison/disease it takes effect immediately and comes with a (probably) boosted save. Add on some Steel Serpent support and you're looking at some pretty bad "touches."


...Can a small Ambu-Lancer pull a medium or larger character on their mount? (I guess the same applies to medium and large, as well) Poor puppies. D:

Right now there's no restriction like that, if only because it's one of those things that makes logical sense in the real world, but causes headaches due to in game expectations. It might change.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Since I don't know what video game you're referencing I'm going to say "no." Which videogame are you referring to?

http://us.battle.net/overwatch/en/heroes/mercy/

[Elricaltovilla]

http://us.battle.net/overwatch/en/heroes/mercy/

Definitely not, in that case.

[Kira_the_5th]

I was really hoping for something like this when I saw the new archetype yesterday, but I really didn't expect it to come this soon. I thought we were going to be in for a Steamflogger Boss-style "What does it mean?!" joke for a little while yet. Still, as someone who loves playing Chirurgeon Alchemists, more options for non-magical healing classes is always a good thing.

That said, the class feels really lopsided in terms of its healing. Almost all of your healing abilities are tied to triage, and only the Angel of Mercy naturally picks up maneuvers that heal, so you wind up as a medic who has more abilities dedicated to hurting than healing, especially considering that you can freely replace all but your first two expertises with combat feats if you wanted. Building off of that, several of the medic abilities either can be used as combat tricks, such as using triage as pseudo-pounce, or are reliant on attacking, such as Cura Te Ipsum (which I'll come back to in a moment) or Combat Healing. The Medic ends up feeling way too much like a fighter that can occasionally pull out healing on the way to beating more face than an actual field medic.

Going back to Cura Te Ipsum, it feels way out of character that the medic described as "not rattling easily" and "calm and dedicated". The ability basically reads as "The medic only really becomes brave after they've hit someone, and even then, only for a few seconds." It would make a lot more sense thematically to just give the medic a good Will save, and scrap this ability for one that helps the medic heal others (maybe bolstering their allies Will saves, representing the extra confidence of having a skilled healer on hand?)

As a clarification thing on Improved Triage; Can the medic use one of the expertise slots to restore the normal healing effect? For example, a 5th level medic uses Improved Triage with Revitalizing Touch. Could the medic forgo adding another expertise effect to heal both the ability damage and hit point damage?

Lastly, perhaps lower the prerequisite for the Plague Doctor feat? I don't really see what in there is worth needing 7 ranks in Heal, especially since it requires that you have successfully fought the disease before, requires another successful Heal check to activate, and even then, only gives a situational bonus. Besides, it seems criminal with Curse of the Crimson Throne getting a reboot in October to block a healer from picking up a disease fighting ability only after Seven Days to the Grave wraps up.

Edit: Oh, and one other, really minor and nitpicky thing: Why Self-Taught as a starting age? Wouldn't Trained make more sense for a skilled doctor?

[Khosan]

Liking the look of Sanguinist, potentially pretty scary damage wise. Max Wis, grab an Amulet of Might Fists with the Guided property, get Wis to hit and 2x Wis to damage (for the first hit until level 10, then every hit, then 2.5x Wis at level 20) or 3x Wis to your next strike with Wrathful Healing. Plus, you're pretty mobile with Triage giving swift action movement, so full attacks aren't that hard to get off as long as you've got another melee in your party.

Add in self-injected poison for extra shenanigans. Bonus points in that you can use pretty much any poison regardless of type or onset period, you inject it all the same. Stock up on fast acting Con damage poisons (Black Lotus, Bunt Othur Fumes, Wyvern Poison) and go nuts with Steel Serpent maneuvers. Up to DC 36 (+13 from Wis, +3 from Steel Fang maneuver, 10 from levels) for each at level 20, dealing 1d3+1d4+1d6 Con damage and 1 Con drain if the target fails their saves, average 9 Con loss per round.

Is there a limit to the number of poisons you can apply in a single attack? Or can you just apply as many as you've got stored?

Do poisons requiring multiple saves still require multiple saves if applied through Blood Transfusion?

How does the Invigorating Touch expertise work with Blood Transfusion?

[Ilorin Lorati]

I actually kinda share Kira's opinion on Cura Te Ipsum, now that I've spent some time in it, but I also like the flavor that their defenses are bolstered after doing something, so... dunno. Maybe give them defenses after they use Triage as well, so they're rewarded for their thing? I personally don't mind their healing abilities all tied into the base of Triage, having a plethora of separate heals would feel wonky.

Strange to say, but something I'm also concerned about, with the re-clarified definition of encounter (I should have remembered that but it's been a while since I've really thought about it) is that the medic also seems to lack out of combat healing options unless they're a Witch Doctor or take the Life Oracle VMC or a level dip into Vitalist and play through mid levels as a Angel of Mercy - and the latter is basically infinite healing once you're there. Which, admittedly, isn't bad at the point in which you get it.

Anyways, really what I'd like is for them to have something to heal reliably while out of an encounter, even if only a few times per day.


Edit: Oh, and one other, really minor and nitpicky thing: Why Self-Taught as a starting age? Wouldn't Trained make more sense for a skilled doctor?]

I agree with self-taught, in terms of age. The way I see it, Medics aren't skilled doctors - that's not what they do. It's the Medic's job to keep people alive long enough to get them to the doctors. They may not be strictly self-taught, but they're not trained as stringently as an actual doctor is.

[PraxisVetli]

Yes
yes
yes
this is amazing.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, I'm working on a longer response to address some of the points that were brought up. I will post appropriate replies as soon as I'm able. In the meantime, the following text has been added to the medic's triage ability. It should serve to improve their focus on emergency and in combat healing. Please let me know what you think:


A medic can only use this class feature to heal injuries gained during the current encounter; hit point damage, conditions, and other effects that the target had before ​initiative was rolled​ are unaffected by the triage and medic's expertise abilities.

[TiaC]

I do like this, it will be nice to have another class that can actually do in-combat healing.

It would be nice to have some higher level Expertises such as one to deal with level drain. Currently, you'll just start taking feats at mid levels.

I don't see any text that actually limits you to one Expertise without Improved Triage.

The Ambu-Lancer gets quite a bit without trading much away. As far as I can tell, you just lose two expertises and a use of Triage.

Is Wings of Mercy supposed to replace anything?

The Witchdoctor looks very weak. You need to spend money to get generally less effective healing and you lose out on all the non-triage expertises.

The Sanguinist combines oddly with a source of unlimited healing. For instance, with a friend who has Elemental Flux Stance, I can spend an hour hitting him to get 600 points in my pool.

[Elricaltovilla]

I was really hoping for something like this when I saw the new archetype yesterday, but I really didn't expect it to come this soon. I thought we were going to be in for a Steamflogger Boss-style "What does it mean?!" joke for a little while yet. Still, as someone who loves playing Chirurgeon Alchemists, more options for non-magical healing classes is always a good thing.

If you knew how long I've been waiting to get this thing in playtest you'd understand. :smalltongue:


That said, the class feels really lopsided in terms of its healing. Almost all of your healing abilities are tied to triage, and only the Angel of Mercy naturally picks up maneuvers that heal, so you wind up as a medic who has more abilities dedicated to hurting than healing, especially considering that you can freely replace all but your first two expertises with combat feats if you wanted. Building off of that, several of the medic abilities either can be used as combat tricks, such as using triage as pseudo-pounce, or are reliant on attacking, such as Cura Te Ipsum (which I'll come back to in a moment) or Combat Healing. The Medic ends up feeling way too much like a fighter that can occasionally pull out healing on the way to beating more face than an actual field medic.

That's pretty deliberate. The medic can serve as a primary healer, but it's also a class that's built to hold its own in combat. Each of the archetypes cover different degrees on a scale of Primary Healer<------->DPR/Secondary healer. In a lot of ways, the medic's healing style functions much like a "tank" as opposed to a more traditional healer. They tank after the fact, but their actions are very much protective of their allies as opposed to interventionist. I think that's a word...

Anyway, even within the basic medic class, there's a lot of room to build the medic to be more, or less, of a primary healer as you choose. You can trait or tradition swap to pick up Silver Crane, you can spend your expertises on combat feats and damage boosters, or you can spend most of them on healing and status effect removal. These options exist to help the medic fit into multiple different party compositions.


Going back to Cura Te Ipsum, it feels way out of character that the medic described as "not rattling easily" and "calm and dedicated". The ability basically reads as "The medic only really becomes brave after they've hit someone, and even then, only for a few seconds." It would make a lot more sense thematically to just give the medic a good Will save, and scrap this ability for one that helps the medic heal others (maybe bolstering their allies Will saves, representing the extra confidence of having a skilled healer on hand?)

The medic is a WIS based initiator, so even with a poor base Will save, they're decently protected out of combat. It's once they get into combat that their training takes hold and they become decidedly more effective. It's like a battle trance or adrenaline rush kind of thing and it only lasts as long as the danger is present. Once the danger passes and everyone is ok, the medic can relax and let their guard down.


As a clarification thing on Improved Triage; Can the medic use one of the expertise slots to restore the normal healing effect? For example, a 5th level medic uses Improved Triage with Revitalizing Touch. Could the medic forgo adding another expertise effect to heal both the ability damage and hit point damage?

No they cannot. Some of the medic's expertises were worded that way to enforce decision making and prioritization on the part of the medic. Given the medic's limited number of heals, I'm open to the possibility of changing that down the line, but currently it's a deliberate thing.


Lastly, perhaps lower the prerequisite for the Plague Doctor feat? I don't really see what in there is worth needing 7 ranks in Heal, especially since it requires that you have successfully fought the disease before, requires another successful Heal check to activate, and even then, only gives a situational bonus. Besides, it seems criminal with Curse of the Crimson Throne getting a reboot in October to block a healer from picking up a disease fighting ability only after Seven Days to the Grave wraps up.

Haven't played CoCT so I didn't realize it was relevant. That being said, I don't really write my material based on paizo's setting, as that would end up getting me sued. I'll take a look at lowering the requirements, but it was originally set that way to match with when similar spells came online.


Edit: Oh, and one other, really minor and nitpicky thing: Why Self-Taught as a starting age? Wouldn't Trained make more sense for a skilled doctor?

From the medic's fluff:


Many medics could have made fine clergymen or intellectuals, but due to their station or upbringing these options were not available to them. More commonly though, the role of medic is one that is thrust upon them. Someone needed to step up and do the job, and they quickly find a talent for the dirty work of treating wounds.

Medics are not highly educated doctors. They are someone who had a tough duty thrust upon them and stepped up. They're good at it, potentially really good, but their training comes from what they learned themselves, not what was taught in an institution.


Liking the look of Sanguinist, potentially pretty scary damage wise. Max Wis, grab an Amulet of Might Fists with the Guided property, get Wis to hit and 2x Wis to damage (for the first hit until level 10, then every hit, then 2.5x Wis at level 20) or 3x Wis to your next strike with Wrathful Healing. Plus, you're pretty mobile with Triage giving swift action movement, so full attacks aren't that hard to get off as long as you've got another melee in your party.

The sanguinist is intended to be the most aggressive medic archetype, so you're right about them being potentially high damage. However, there are some errors in your math. Guided is a 3.5 weapon property and not actually part of Pathfinder's ruleset. In addition, Guided wouldn't stack with Sanguinist's blood transfusion ability because in pathfinder untyped ability bonuses from the same ability score do not stack (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk). Now, Wrathful Healing would still stack with Blood Transfusion or guided, because it's an insight bonus, and if guided is allowed in your games you could still use it for attack rolls, but guided+blood transfusion by themselves would not stack.


Add in self-injected poison for extra shenanigans. Bonus points in that you can use pretty much any poison regardless of type or onset period, you inject it all the same. Stock up on fast acting Con damage poisons (Black Lotus, Bunt Othur Fumes, Wyvern Poison) and go nuts with Steel Serpent maneuvers. Up to DC 36 (+13 from Wis, +3 from Steel Fang maneuver, 10 from levels) for each at level 20, dealing 1d3+1d4+1d6 Con damage and 1 Con drain if the target fails their saves, average 9 Con loss per round.

This was more or less intentional and your numbers seem correct to me.


Is there a limit to the number of poisons you can apply in a single attack? Or can you just apply as many as you've got stored?

I should probably make the wording clear that it's only intended to be one poison or disease per attack. I will clear that up.


Do poisons requiring multiple saves still require multiple saves if applied through Blood Transfusion?

Yes they still require multiple saves.


How does the Invigorating Touch expertise work with Blood Transfusion?

I will have to get back to you on that. I may allow it to just work normally, but it does ruin some of the fun of Blood Transfusion, I think.


I actually kinda share Kira's opinion on Cura Te Ipsum, now that I've spent some time in it, but I also like the flavor that their defenses are bolstered after doing something, so... dunno. Maybe give them defenses after they use Triage as well, so they're rewarded for their thing? I personally don't mind their healing abilities all tied into the base of Triage, having a plethora of separate heals would feel wonky.

Cura Te Ipsum was part of a package intended to better integrate the maneuvers into the class. Like I mentioned above, I kind of think of it as a battle trance or adrenaline rush sort of deal.


Strange to say, but something I'm also concerned about, with the re-clarified definition of encounter (I should have remembered that but it's been a while since I've really thought about it) is that the medic also seems to lack out of combat healing options unless they're a Witch Doctor or take the Life Oracle VMC or a level dip into Vitalist and play through mid levels as a Angel of Mercy - and the latter is basically infinite healing once you're there. Which, admittedly, isn't bad at the point in which you get it.

There's some very deliberate division between the archetypes on a scale of "More healing" vs. "More combat." Angel of Mercy is intended to be a top dog healer, while Sanguinist is the premiere damage dealing archetype for the medic. Witchdoctor is less good at healing in combat but has much better (read extant) options for healing out of combat. The base medic is somewhere in the middle, and the Ambu-lancer trades some healing for better tanking and mobility.


Anyways, really what I'd like is for them to have something to heal reliably while out of an encounter, even if only a few times per day.

It might be doable, depending on feedback and playtesting.


I agree with self-taught, in terms of age. The way I see it, Medics aren't skilled doctors - that's not what they do. It's the Medic's job to keep people alive long enough to get them to the doctors. They're may not be strictly self-taught, but they're not trained as stringently as an actual doctor is.

You hit the logic right on the nose here. This is exactly why they're self-taught.

[Mehangel]

So, I'm working on a longer response to address some of the points that were brought up. I will post appropriate replies as soon as I'm able. In the meantime, the following text has been added to the medic's triage ability. It should serve to improve their focus on emergency and in combat healing. Please let me know what you think:

A medic can only use this class feature to heal injuries gained during the current encounter; hit point damage, conditions, and other effects that the target had before ​initiative was rolled​ are unaffected by the triage and medic's expertise abilities.


Does this mean that if an individual starts an encounter with 9/12 HP and then gets injured a further 3 HP, that they can only heal back up to 9 hitpoints? I feel like that may create one more unnecessary thing that the player will need to keep track of.

[MilleniaAntares]

How about Signature Skill (Heal) as a bonus feat?

[Elricaltovilla]

Does this mean that if an individual starts an encounter with 9/12 HP and then gets injured a further 3 HP, that they can only heal back up to 9 hitpoints? I feel like that may create one more unnecessary thing that the player will need to keep track of.

That is correct. Though the medic ought to be keeping track of HP anyway, and has a class feature which explicitly allows them to do just that: Medic's Training. And the medic has a full minute after the last enemy drops to spend any last triage uses to heal up her allies.

There's also something of an expectation that other, non-triage healing options are available. Wands of cure light wounds are cheap and plentiful, and natural healing does exist, even though it's slow and not great.

[master4sword]

My two cents:


Maneuvers: It seems odd that they don't get Silver Crane natively, being the healing discipline and all.
Medic's Training: How many enemies does this affect per check? Since it's a free action, can it be repeated if you fail? If so, how long must you wait to try again?
Triage: Hmm. Something seems off about swift-action move-plus-heal right from level 1. I almost feel move action would be more appropriate. Full-round action to move double speed and heal all along the move is nifty.
Improvised Treatment: So at 2nd level you no longer need that free kit you start with? :smallamused: Yes I know it affects the DC so a kit is still better. Though on second look, you don't actually need the kit for treating disease or poison to begin with...
Resuscitation: But doesn't being restored to positive hit points already stabilize you? :smallwink:
Sanguinist's Blood Reserve: Is it just me or is this just restating information from Blood Transfusion?


...okay, maybe more than just two cents.

[Ilorin Lorati]

How about Signature Skill (Heal) as a bonus feat?

I don't know if I'd want that to be part of the core kit, considering Unchained is largely a set of intentionally optional rules. An Expertise option would be easier for a DM to just say no to. It would fix my personal concerns about out of combat healing, however the time it takes still leaves something to be desired.

[Extra Anchovies]

I agree with master4sword that triage should be shifted to a move action.

Alicorn FCB references a class feature (Touch of Tranquility) that doesn't exist.

Human and Aasimar FCBs should be brought down to +1/6 to match the already-printed FCBs that grant feat-equivalents (Human Rogue, Human Dread, Human Soulknife, etc).

Witch Doctor looks pretty bad. It'd be decent if it still got expertises at 3/7/11/15/19.

Ambu-Lance gets a mount (and the mount gets a useful feat) for free. That shouldn't happen. Mounted Maneuver Expertise seems too strong - wasn't there a big thing in the PoW:E threads about how mounted charging shouldn't be usable with maneuvers? It's also available to anyone through a 1-level Medic dip.

Overall... meh. Nothing here really grabs me. If I wanted to be a combat medic I'd probably play a Zealot and get Silver Crane with a trait. The mechanics of Triage could make for an interesting core feature to build a class around, but restricting it to healing and debuff-removal kinda prevents that - it would be interesting to see a support character that can run from one ally to the next, handing out different buffs to each, but that would require abandoning or at least shifting away from the "medic" concept.

[Khosan]

The sanguinist is intended to be the most aggressive medic archetype, so you're right about them being potentially high damage. However, there are some errors in your math. Guided is a 3.5 weapon property and not actually part of Pathfinder's ruleset. In addition, Guided wouldn't stack with Sanguinist's blood transfusion ability because in pathfinder untyped ability bonuses from the same ability score do not stack (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk). Now, Wrathful Healing would still stack with Blood Transfusion or guided, because it's an insight bonus, and if guided is allowed in your games you could still use it for attack rolls, but guided+blood transfusion by themselves would not stack.

That's what I get for googling 'Pathfinder Guided' and assuming that, because it was on the SRD, it'd be totally fine.

There's still Guided Hand for Wis to hit, it's just a bit awkward to get. Not that a cleric dip would really be all that bad (shores up some of the out of combat healing business), I just don't like multiclassing if I can avoid it.

As far as double-dipping, I guess I interpreted Blood Transfusion as a second damage event, separate from the actual attack damage roll. You might want to reword this part:


Once per round, when the sanguinist makes a successful attack with an unarmed strike or natural attack, she can drain a number of additional hit points from her target equal to her initiation modifier. These hit points are stored in the sanguinist’s blood reserve.

To something more along the lines of:


Once per round, when the sanguinist makes a successful attack with an unarmed strike or natural attack, she can deal additional damage equal to her target equal to her initiation modifier on that attack and add that same amount to her blood reserve.

[Elricaltovilla]

I do like this, it will be nice to have another class that can actually do in-combat healing.

It would be nice to have some higher level Expertises such as one to deal with level drain. Currently, you'll just start taking feats at mid levels.

There's still room to add more expertises, though currently there's quite a few and many of them you'll want if you want to be an effective medic. The level gating on them is largely to match the levels that equivalent spells become available to casters.


I don't see any text that actually limits you to one Expertise without Improved Triage.

I'll see if I can make that language more clear.


The Ambu-Lancer gets quite a bit without trading much away. As far as I can tell, you just lose two expertises and a use of Triage.

A use of triage is a significant amount of healing. The archetype does stretch the boundaries of good taste a bit since it was originally part of the April Augmented release. It's being included in the playtest in order to make sure it stays relevant with the class as it changes.


Is Wings of Mercy supposed to replace anything?

It currently does not replace anything, as it's mostly there to free up your stance, since it's very hard to give up Stance of the Crane Knight at higher levels.


The Witchdoctor looks very weak. You need to spend money to get generally less effective healing and you lose out on all the non-triage expertises.

They trade in combat healing for out of combat healing and additional effects that other medics don't get, on top of the ability to craft spell trigger and spell completion items.


The Sanguinist combines oddly with a source of unlimited healing. For instance, with a friend who has Elemental Flux Stance, I can spend an hour hitting him to get 600 points in my pool.

Considering the damage you're probably dealing, it'd take a lot longer than an hour and you're likely to kill your friend doing that.


How about Signature Skill (Heal) as a bonus feat?

I don't think it's a good idea to require the use of a book of optional rules in order to play the class.


My two cents:

Maneuvers: It seems odd that they don't get Silver Crane natively, being the healing discipline and all.

Silver Crane is also the holy discipline and is explicitly supernatural beyond a level that the medic's design is willing to tolerate. Fortunately there are trait and tradition options, and an entire archetype for swapping into silver crane available.


Medic's Training: How many enemies does this affect per check? Since it's a free action, can it be repeated if you fail? If so, how long must you wait to try again?

One enemy per check, no retries.


Triage: Hmm. Something seems off about swift-action move-plus-heal right from level 1. I almost feel move action would be more appropriate. Full-round action to move double speed and heal all along the move is nifty.

It's a much more restricted version of Travel Devotion. And the amount of healing you can do is tightly controlled by your class level, capping at 9 uses per encounter.


Improvised Treatment: So at 2nd level you no longer need that free kit you start with? :smallamused: Yes I know it affects the DC so a kit is still better. Though on second look, you don't actually need the kit for treating disease or poison to begin with...

You need it for some stuff, and don't need it for others. The text is there as an explanation more than anything.


Resuscitation: But doesn't being restored to positive hit points already stabilize you? :smallwink:

Reminder text often proves useful and necessary.


Sanguinist's Blood Reserve: Is it just me or is this just restating information from Blood Transfusion?

It does, but I ran into a problem of people skimming the sanguinist and not understanding what a blood reserve was or bothering to learn how it worked. Separating it into its own ability and repeating the information seemed to solve the issue, so I left it.


...okay, maybe more than just two cents.

That's fine. I've got plenty of room for more cents if you have them.

[Elricaltovilla]

I agree with master4sword that triage should be shifted to a move action.

Alicorn FCB references a class feature (Touch of Tranquility) that doesn't exist.

That's because it references the racial feature Touch of Tranquility that the Alicorn possesses.


Human and Aasimar FCBs should be brought down to +1/6 to match the already-printed FCBs that grant feat-equivalents (Human Rogue, Human Dread, Human Soulknife, etc).

OK.


Witch Doctor looks pretty bad. It'd be decent if it still got expertises at 3/7/11/15/19.

Witchdoctor's spell list provides nearly everything that you can get from expertises and then some.


Ambu-Lance gets a mount (and the mount gets a useful feat) for free. That shouldn't happen. Mounted Maneuver Expertise seems too strong - wasn't there a big thing in the PoW:E threads about how mounted charging shouldn't be usable with maneuvers? It's also available to anyone through a 1-level Medic dip.

You missed a lot of discussion then. I recommend taking a look at the systems and use chapter for Path of War: Expanded, and also probably reading up on the Hussar class template and Omen Rider harbinger.


Overall... meh. Nothing here really grabs me. If I wanted to be a combat medic I'd probably play a Zealot and get Silver Crane with a trait. The mechanics of Triage could make for an interesting core feature to build a class around, but restricting it to healing and debuff-removal kinda prevents that - it would be interesting to see a support character that can run from one ally to the next, handing out different buffs to each, but that would require abandoning or at least shifting away from the "medic" concept.

You should take a closer look at the medic's expertises. There are actually several buffs that you can hand out. This is also not a supernatural class. The zealot can do its thing well, but it is an entirely different breed of initiator from the medic.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Witch Doctor looks pretty bad. It'd be decent if it still got expertises at 3/7/11/15/19.

I actually disagree with this. It may need some help - indeed, Medic was just released for playtest and I would be surprised if there were any aspect that didn't need some help, but it gains access to magical crafting (something only one other full initiator has, IIRC), gains access to a toolkit that can be created at reasonable prices, and gains nice bonuses to its uses of that toolkit.

I absolutely don't think Expertises are the right answer to helping the Witch Doctor, even if buffs are being considered. If anything, make it easier and cheaper to use its toolkit. A couple of things I can think of that would fit better, regardless of balance issues:


Let them recharge the spell trigger items they make.
Let them more cheaply upgrade their starter wand as they level (used in conjunction with the previous ability) instead of crafting a whole new wand.
Mid levels, they could get an improvement to Magical Assistance to reduce the charges used by their Magical Understanding items.
Increase the number of targets that scrolls without material component costs can affect when used.

[MilleniaAntares]

On a personal level, I feel that witch doctor getting craft potion instead of craft scroll may be more thematically fitting. That said, you might end up stepping on the alchemist's toes that way.

If you use an attacking counter with Guardian of Life, does the medic make the attack roll, or does the ally do so?

Tempest Gale may be a good discipline to add, if you want to add a bit more support on the ranged medic front.


I don't know if I'd want that to be part of the core kit, considering Unchained is largely a set of intentionally optional rules. An Expertise option would be easier for a DM to just say no to. It would fix my personal concerns about out of combat healing, however the time it takes still leaves something to be desired.


I don't think it's a good idea to require the use of a book of optional rules in order to play the class.
Well, how is Pathfinder Unchained any more optional than anything else...?

Though, if that's a concern, you can always reprint the ability under a different name, or make up a similar ability that could boost the Heal skill's usefulness out of combat.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It's literally a book of optional rules, not a rulebook that you can optionally allow or disallow. I consider that to be a significant difference.

[Axebird]

So, I'm working on a longer response to address some of the points that were brought up. I will post appropriate replies as soon as I'm able. In the meantime, the following text has been added to the medic's triage ability. It should serve to improve their focus on emergency and in combat healing. Please let me know what you think:

It's extremely disappointing. This makes the medic a healing focused class that can't actually heal any wounds that weren't caused right now- they're useless in a hospital situation or really anywhere that isn't in the middle of a fight on the front lines. I'm not even sure what the problem was, since hp attrition has never been a thing in D&D (and is likewise completely eliminated by Silver Crane) and condition removal from spell services is really cheap and readily available almost everywhere.

I'm also not a fan of Cura Te Ipsum, since it makes them heavily reliant on always being on the offense, or else you become extremely vulnerable as your saves drop from being 'pretty alright' to 'terrible', and you're screwed during a surprise attack.

[Elricaltovilla]

It's extremely disappointing. This makes the medic a healing focused class that can't actually heal any wounds that weren't caused right now- they're useless in a hospital situation or really anywhere that isn't in the middle of a fight on the front lines. I'm not even sure what the problem was, since hp attrition has never been a thing in D&D (and is likewise completely eliminated by Silver Crane) and condition removal from spell services is really cheap and readily available almost everywhere.

Without getting into my own opinion on the matter, there is a notable camp of though that disagrees with you and believes that HP attrition is a thing (and/or should be a thing) in D&D. There is room in the class to add additional features to help them heal outside of combat, though I'm reluctant to do so because triage already presents apparent issues and I don't want to split up the medic's healing ability into multiple different types as that just strikes me as exceedingly messy.

Tactically speaking, even before this line was added I found that medics operated best when they saved 2 triage uses for the end of the encounter so that they could use a full round action to heal up all their allies in one go. So even in the case of the medic being able to heal more freely, I found it better to play your triage uses conservatively.


I'm also not a fan of Cura Te Ipsum, since it makes them heavily reliant on always being on the offense, or else you become extremely vulnerable as your saves drop from being 'pretty alright' to 'terrible', and you're screwed during a surprise attack.

I went ahead and investigated this claim, and found that the numbers show that Cura Te Ipsum takes the medic's Will save (because that's the big one) from bad to better than the cleric across nearly all levels, even if you don't spend a dime on a cloak of resistance.

You can see my math here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1378cFEYK-Gl21vt-7RBG7a--1TiYy_5QkJd1GotSZa8/edit?usp=sharing), along with a chart that I can't get to work quite right although I think it still manages to illustrate things well enough.

Important notes with the data: Only the cleric (good will save) got a cloak of resistance calculated into WBL and I calculated item bonuses to WIS based on the earliest possible time they were reasonably available.

Cura Te Ipsum encourages the use of strike maneuvers, which pushes the medic towards a particular playstyle but doesn't interfere with their ability to heal in a significant way, as strikes are usually a standard action, while the medic's healing feature is a swift.

The name of the game is combat healing. Maybe I should have stuck combat in front of medic, but there's an unwritten rule about base classes only having one word names... anyway, the medic is a combat healer, and in combat you need to be able to contribute both offensively and defensively. Medic does that through the combination of its strikes (for offense) and triage (for defense). Wasting your whole turn undoing another creature's action is not acceptable for a medic. That's why the class has the rhythm it does.


EDIT: After looking at the math, and doing some sanity checking I'm going to be reworking the medic's Cura Te Ipsum and likely their will save. It's a bit excessive at this point.

EDIT THE EDIT:

Medics now have a good Will save progression and Cura Te Ipsum provides a scaling +1 - +5 insight bonus to Reflex and Will saves for 1 round when the medic uses a strike. Improvised Treatment turned out to be largely useless and has been replaced with the following:



Improved Treatment (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when the medic treats deadly wounds, the creature she treats recovers hit points and ability score damage as if it had rested for a full day. At 6th level, when the medic treats a creature’s deadly wounds it recover hit points as if it had rested for a full day with long term care. At 11th level, when the medic treat deadly wounds, the creature recovers hit point and ability damage as if it had rested for 3 days.

[Cyrocloud]

My two cents on initial impressions are it looks pretty fun. I will say the recovery mechanic seems a little strong, maybe tone it down to 2 x initiation modifier, and the saguinist needs a cap on how much it can apply per triage. This is mainly for if the pcs get their hands on something with regen, like a captured troll, or more reasonably a kyton augur (Imp familiar level 7). The Sanguinist could drain the hell out of that thing every morning while someone is preparing spells and have 900-2700 hp stored up pre-10, it gets more ridiculous post 10, when that number could easily triple to quintuple.

Math is assuming 45 min of blood draining 15 of prepping maneuvers, so 450 rounds.

Pre-10
Blood Bank = 450*initiation modifier (assuming between +2-+6) = 900-2700
Reg triage ~45 hp per application at level 9, with 5 max per encounter (225). So you would need 10 encounters to happen where all uses of triage were expended at maximum usage to have an equivalent amount of healing, and this is assuming the blood bank doesn't increase during the day at all, not including the blood bank can burst heal, and be more accurate in healing to not waste any.

10-19
Blood Bank = 450*(Number of Attacks [2-7 barring natural attack shenanigans])*(Initiation Modifier[+4-+12])=7200-378000
multiply all that by 1.5 at 20, this is probably low balling it too. A comparative medic probably healing ~200 at this level with 9/encounter for 1800 max hp healing/encounter. An equivalent sanguinist prepping 33750 hp in the morning (twf unarmed for 5 attacks(Stances adding natural attacks or additional attacks will just make this much larger), assuming +10 initiation mod). This is the rough equivalent of 19 encounters to be equal assuming the bank doesn't get added to.


Edit: added regular medic comparisons

[EldritchWeaver]

Where does the alicorn race come from? Psionics Unchained?

[Elricaltovilla]

Where does the alicorn race come from? Psionics Unchained?

Alicorn, Dreige and Wulfkin are all from Dreamscarred Press's Bloodforge. It's a book full of new races and racial options for PF.

[Prime32]

I'm a little disappointed that you can't combine Ambu-Lancer with Witchdoctor. You'd basically have a Fire Emblem troubadour/valkyrie then. :smalltongue: Speaking of Witchdoctor...

Magical Device Expertise (Su): Starting at 5th level, whenever the witchdoctor casts a spell from her list of Thaumaturgic Medicine spells through a wand, scroll or other spell completion item, she treats the caster level of the spell as being equal to her initiator level, regardless of the spell’s actual caster level. In addition, spells she casts through such items that heal hit point damage gain the benefits of the Empower Spell metamagic feat, if they are not already empowered. This does not increase the level of the spell.
This replaces the medic’s expertise gained at 5th level.
Scrolls are spell completion items; wands and staves are spell trigger items. Also it might be better to base this effect on her ranks in Heal instead of her initiator level.

Medic could use the ability to perform first aid without provoking attacks of opportunity, maybe folded into Medic's Training.

Feat suggestion: "Amateur Medic" - requires 1 rank in Heal, grants a +2 bonus on Heal checks (increasing to +4 at 10 ranks) plus the Medic's Training class feature (including the AoO-ignoring above). Counts as Skill Focus (Heal) for meeting prerequisites, and you can trade it for Skill Focus (Heal) if you ever gain the Medic's Training class feature.

First Aid Training could be more broadly useful if it also added your Wis modifier to damage healed by healing spells.

I feel like Cura Te Ipsum might work better as a "reverse Power Attack" available from lv1, to better emphasise the Medic's support roll in comparison to other martial classes - you can take a scaling penalty on damage rolls with your strike in order to grant yourself and your allies a bonus on saving throws. Heck, maybe even grant allies a bonus on damage rolls against your attack target for 1 round equal to half the penalty you took - you can use that aggressively as a "leader" power (encouraging allies to attack a target of your choice), or defensively as an "anti-aggro" power (discouraging enemies from getting into melee with you).


the following text has been added to the medic's triage ability. It should serve to improve their focus on emergency and in combat healing. Please let me know what you think:

A medic can only use this class feature to heal injuries gained during the current encounter; hit point damage, conditions, and other effects that the target had before ​initiative was rolled​ are unaffected by the triage and medic's expertise abilities.
I really dislike this. You're basically changing how hitpoints work on a universal level, just to support a class feature of a single class.

If you want to include a restriction on healing, you could do it the way Dragon Shaman did - only let them heal allies up to half HP. Or let Triage only heal half the damage, and convert the other half into nonlethal damage (or maybe "inflict nonlethal damage equal to half the amount healed" is clearer).

[Cyrocloud]

I really dislike this. You're basically changing how hitpoints work on a universal level, just to support a class feature of a single class.

If you want to include a restriction on healing, you could do it the way Dragon Shaman did - only let them heal allies up to half HP. Or let Triage only heal half the damage, and convert the other half into nonlethal damage (or maybe "inflict nonlethal damage equal to half the amount healed" is clearer).

I agree here, but another alternative might be that it can only heal damage that was taken in the last intiation modifier rounds, or minute to keep with the minute theme with the temp HP. Another option might be just to make the health healed temporary hp that can't bring a character above their max hp, and maybe involve some wordage so that some of it converts into actual HP post encounter (Maybe make it increase with level).

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm a little disappointed that you can't combine Ambu-Lancer with Witchdoctor. You'd basically have a Fire Emblem troubadour/valkyrie then. :smalltongue: Speaking of Witchdoctor...

Scrolls are spell completion items; wands and staves are spell trigger items. Also it might be better to base this effect on her ranks in Heal instead of her initiator level.

Hey another Fire Emblem fan. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can really swing stacking those two archetypes. Thanks for correcting the terminology, I keep getting them confused.


Medic could use the ability to perform first aid without provoking attacks of opportunity, maybe folded into Medic's Training.

I thought I had that in there somewhere, but I guess not. It's definitely doable.


Feat suggestion: "Amateur Medic" - requires 1 rank in Heal, grants a +2 bonus on Heal checks (increasing to +4 at 10 ranks) plus the Medic's Training class feature (including the AoO-ignoring above). Counts as Skill Focus (Heal) for meeting prerequisites, and you can trade it for Skill Focus (Heal) if you ever gain the Medic's Training class feature.

Maybe. That's pretty clearly a straight "This is better than Skill Focus/whatever the +2/+4 is for heal" and those tend to get me yelled at. :smalltongue:


First Aid Training could be more broadly useful if it also added your Wis modifier to damage healed by healing spells.

I'll consider it.


I feel like Cura Te Ipsum might work better as a "reverse Power Attack" available from lv1, to better emphasise the Medic's support roll in comparison to other martial classes - you can take a scaling penalty on damage rolls with your strike in order to grant yourself and your allies a bonus on saving throws. Heck, maybe even grant allies a bonus on damage rolls against your attack target for 1 round equal to half the penalty you took - you can use that aggressively as a "leader" power (encouraging allies to attack a target of your choice), or defensively as an "anti-aggro" power (discouraging enemies from getting into melee with you).

I really do not want to try and get into the math on reverse power attack. Damage scaling is so wonky and highly variable that it's an absolute pain trying to get anything concrete nailed down. Add to that that medic is already one of the lowest damage dealing initiators (3/4 BAB, Dex focus, no innate attack bonuses, damage bonuses tied to strikes) and you run the risk of punishing players for using their class features instead of them benefiting from it. I'm not sure it's worth the headache.


I really dislike this. You're basically changing how hitpoints work on a universal level, just to support a class feature of a single class.

If you want to include a restriction on healing, you could do it the way Dragon Shaman did - only let them heal allies up to half HP. Or let Triage only heal half the damage, and convert the other half into nonlethal damage (or maybe "inflict nonlethal damage equal to half the amount healed" is clearer).


I agree here, but another alternative might be that it can only heal damage that was taken in the last intiation modifier rounds, or minute to keep with the minute theme with the temp HP. Another option might be just to make the health healed temporary hp that can't bring a character above their max hp, and maybe involve some wordage so that some of it converts into actual HP post encounter (Maybe make it increase with level).

I'll be honest with you here. I'm between a rock and a hard place on this one. Triage's numbers are very carefully balanced both in uses per encounter and the amount healed. Unfortunately the ability is very in your face compared to current healing methods, and it's rubbing a significant number of people the wrong way. That text was an attempt to resolve some of the perceived issues while still being married to the fluff of the class as the guy who keeps you up and fighting until the danger has passed. What exactly needs to be done to bring the ability in line, I'm not sure, but I'm very open to suggestions.

Putting timers on healing is not a great idea because of the bookkeeping issues it causes. Capping at 1/2 hit points conflicts with triage's math and effectively neuters the ability's end of encounter usefulness (that 1 minute window to patch everyone up with any remaining triage uses). So I don't think that those are the right solutions to the perceived issues with triage, but I remain unsure of how to proceed myself.

[Shackel]

Tactically speaking, even before this line was added I found that medics operated best when they saved 2 triage uses for the end of the encounter so that they could use a full round action to heal up all their allies in one go. So even in the case of the medic being able to heal more freely, I found it better to play your triage uses conservatively.


This here is my biggest problem with having a class feature that can only work "in combat" without exception: the walls between OOC and IC begin to blur. "Saving up two triages to use at the end of an encounter so they aren't wasted" feels like it relies on artificial terms, and is hard to explain IC. What exactly are they saving up that vanishes if they take one minute longer after the end of the vaguely defined encounter? Why do they need two of it? Even just having it be in minutes rather than "encounter" can have the argument of the wound being too old(somehow).

The HP limitation, however, I don't think can really be salvaged. It not only throws in an extra layer of book keeping, but it opens up a can of worms with any source of prolonged damage like bleeding, how HP as a whole works, and, since the Medic is primarily Ex, starts getting really confusing when trying to explain why all of these conditions can only be fixed 1 minute and 6x seconds later(x being # of rounds in the encounter).

I really do like the medic class, but I think the many attempts at trying to stop it from having any healing potential outside of combat is starting to leave it feeling artificial.

[Elricaltovilla]

This here is my biggest problem with having a class feature that can only work "in combat" without exception: the walls between OOC and IC begin to blur. "Saving up two triages to use at the end of an encounter so they aren't wasted" feels like it relies on artificial terms, and is hard to explain IC. What exactly are they saving up that vanishes if they take one minute longer after the end of the vaguely defined encounter? Why do they need two of it? Even just having it be in minutes rather than "encounter" can have the argument of the wound being too old(somehow).

But that's true of other healing abilities, and essentially every ability in the game to a degree. Why is it a swift action to use Lay on Hands when healing yourself, but a standard to use it on the guy standing next to you? Why does a cleric run out of channel energies? Why can I drink a potion of Enlarge Person crafted by the alchemist, but not an extract of the exact same spell?

I can provide some mechanical -> Fluff justification for the reason that medics tend to operate better this way, but the expectation that a game about wizards and flying lizards is going to mimic real life to anything approaching a reasonable degree is why we have things like The Guy at the Gym Fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303089-The-Guy-at-the-Gym-Fallacy) and the commoner railgun (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun).

To put it in IC terms, it takes more time for the medic to heal everyone in one go (Full round use of triage) and patching up a bunch of people at once takes more effort than patching up one person (two uses of triage instead of one). In addition, healing people is inherently risky, especially when enemies are still nearby. As a result, it's better to wait to heal people when enemies are not right in your face, which is basically to say when they're all dead (waiting til the end of the encounter). And healing people does take up resources that the medic has to have access to (limited number of triage uses per encounter).

And within the context of Path of War, an encounter is not a blurry and undefined thing. It has a very clear and explicit definition:


An encounter is a period of time from when initiative begins (starting with the surprise round, if any) to the last initiative has ended and after a total time amount of one minute has elapsed without combat resuming. This means that martial disciples have had time to recover all expended maneuvers and abilities that are used and depleted within the span of an encounter.

That one minute window is the medic's opportunity to patch up allies before moving on to the next fight, and triage is designed to take advantage of that.


The HP limitation, however, I don't think can really be salvaged. It not only throws in an extra layer of book keeping, but it opens up a can of worms with any source of prolonged damage like bleeding, how HP as a whole works, and, since the Medic is primarily Ex, starts getting really confusing when trying to explain why all of these conditions can only be fixed 1 minute and 6x seconds later(x being # of rounds in the encounter).

I really do like the medic class, but I think the many attempts at trying to stop it from having any healing potential outside of combat is starting to leave it feeling artificial.

I'm open to alternatives, if it's good enough I can fight for it.

[Prime32]

I'll be honest with you here. I'm between a rock and a hard place on this one. Triage's numbers are very carefully balanced both in uses per encounter and the amount healed. Unfortunately the ability is very in your face compared to current healing methods, and it's rubbing a significant number of people the wrong way. That text was an attempt to resolve some of the perceived issues while still being married to the fluff of the class as the guy who keeps you up and fighting until the danger has passed. What exactly needs to be done to bring the ability in line, I'm not sure, but I'm very open to suggestions.

Putting timers on healing is not a great idea because of the bookkeeping issues it causes. Capping at 1/2 hit points conflicts with triage's math and effectively neuters the ability's end of encounter usefulness (that 1 minute window to patch everyone up with any remaining triage uses). So I don't think that those are the right solutions to the perceived issues with triage, but I remain unsure of how to proceed myself.So what about the "half becomes nonlethal" thing then?


You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

This would mean that Triage becomes a stopgap measure even if it's available out of combat, that it's only healing damage taken recently, and that parties can suffer attrition if they don't have time to rest.

[Elricaltovilla]

So what about the "half becomes nonlethal" thing then?



This would mean that Triage becomes a stopgap measure even if it's available out of combat, that it's only healing damage taken recently, and that parties can suffer attrition if they don't have time to rest.

I'd have to run some math on it before I could say for certian, but I'm concerned about running into the kineticist's burn problem. Specifically:


when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

If a PC is constantly building nonlethal damage each time they're healed, that rule is going to cause some significant issues. It also effectively reduces a character's maximum hit points because of the way that nonlethal damage damage interacts with your hit point total.

[Shackel]

But that's true of other healing abilities, and essentially every ability in the game to a degree. Why is it a swift action to use Lay on Hands when healing yourself, but a standard to use it on the guy standing next to you? Why does a cleric run out of channel energies? Why can I drink a potion of Enlarge Person crafted by the alchemist, but not an extract of the exact same spell?

Easy.

Why is it a swift action to use Lay on Hands on yourself? You don't need to channel it all the way into someone else, you know your own body better, energy born from you moves through you faster, etc.

Why does a cleric run out of channel energies? Beyond the same reasons for most every resource, they only have so much "divine energy", their deity's power doesn't grow on trees, a literal divine artificial limit.

Why can you drink a potion but not an extract? This one actually has explicit reasoning: the extract is held together by the alchemist's personal essence. The potion is independent.

But what is a "triage" other than a mechanic? What are its usage limitations other than an artificial limiter? What are you doing that uses two triages, etc etc.


I can provide some mechanical -> Fluff justification for the reason that medics tend to operate better this way, but the expectation that a game about wizards and flying lizards is going to mimic real life to anything approaching a reasonable degree is why we have things like The Guy at the Gym Fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303089-The-Guy-at-the-Gym-Fallacy) and the commoner railgun (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun).

Which is why I find it kind of silly that Guy At The Gym Fallacy is actually being thrown around. Because it's not that the fluff is "unrealistic", it's that the fluff is nonexistent. It exists entirely as a mechanic. Which might be fine in a video game, but it makes a lot less sense for TTRPGs where gamey tropes can't exactly be taken for granted. Even maneuvers, sometimes bashed for there being no reason to not be able to ready or "spam" a maneuver multiple times, has reasons like the of the flow of battle prohibiting it.


To put it in IC terms, it takes more time for the medic to heal everyone in one go (Full round use of triage) and patching up a bunch of people at once takes more effort than patching up one person (two uses of triage instead of one). In addition, healing people is inherently risky, especially when enemies are still nearby. As a result, it's better to wait to heal people when enemies are not right in your face, which is basically to say when they're all dead (waiting til the end of the encounter). And healing people does take up resources that the medic has to have access to (limited number of triage uses per encounter).

Fair enough, I'll give you that the reasoning is sound so long as the resource is sound.


And within the context of Path of War, an encounter is not a blurry and undefined thing. It has a very clear and explicit definition:



That one minute window is the medic's opportunity to patch up allies before moving on to the next fight, and triage is designed to take advantage of that.

And therein lies the problem: it's vaguely defined IC. In character, there is this mythical umbrella of time that only seems to encompass the time in which they are fighting, and precisely one minute afterwards. After that minute, anything that attacks them now reopens the umbrella of time, which is now completely separate.

A six second fight and a six minute fight are both "one encounter" so long as there isn't a minute of complete downtime. Depending on the DM, for instance, one huge clash between armies could be one encounter, or it could be broken up between multiple smaller encounters.

Two fights start simultaneously, Fight A and Fight B. Fight A has a medic, and it ends in less than a minute. The medic patches everyone up.

Fight B is ticking over into its third minute(perhaps it's a shootout or a chase). The medic goes there to give a helping hand. What happens? Does the medic "magically" have its triages back? Why do the wounds of the combatants in Fight B have the capability to be healed, but those in Fight A's do not? These are the kind of questions that are really getting to me.


I'm open to alternatives, if it's good enough I can fight for it.
I think the idea was a novel one, but it might be better to make it either a daily pool of triages(representing some abstract form of medical material and expertise) or have a more "solid" limit to it. I believe I saw an "initiator modifier in minutes", but, unfortunately, an encounter-based limit still starts running into harsh justification problems, especially for something trying to have the feel of a battlefield medic.

An HP limitation still feels really iffy, but, I think it might be best if it is restricted to only HP damage and maybe ability damage, emphasis on "damage" rather than potentially permanent conditions or effects.

[MilleniaAntares]

How about making triage be temporary hit points that last for 1 minute after an encounter ends?

That way, a medic isn't able to keep everyone up indefinitely, and they can use their heal skill to help people out afterward.

Main problem is that it will cause issues with the full-round recovery method's benefit, which may need to be changed in turn.

And also cause issues with everything that gives people temporary hit points (the Vigor power, certain maneuvers, the various temp HP feats from PoW)...

[Shackel]

Temporary HP does also fit pretty well with the "keep people up long enough to get to the doctor" theme, too. I thought Temp HP from different sources stack in PF?

[Elricaltovilla]

How about making triage be temporary hit points that last for 1 minute after an encounter ends?

That way, a medic isn't able to keep everyone up indefinitely, and they can use their heal skill to help people out afterward.

Main problem is that it will cause issues with the full-round recovery method's benefit, which may need to be changed in turn.

And also cause issues with everything that gives people temporary hit points (the Vigor power, certain maneuvers, the various temp HP feats from PoW)...


Temporary HP does also fit pretty well with the "keep people up long enough to get to the doctor" theme, too. I thought Temp HP from different sources stack in PF?

Temporary hit points are absolutely not the solution to this "problem." Or any problem really. And this is coming from a guy who actually really likes temporary hit points.

Each individual source of temporary hit points has its own wonky rules about duration, stacking, usage, and interaction that all need to be defined because although there are general rules for temporary hit points almost none of the sources of temporary hit points follow those rules without variation. The only thing that changing triage from actual healing to temporary healing does is make the medic no longer a healer. Because they can no longer actually heal.

[EldritchWeaver]

Because they can no longer actually heal.

I agree. Bleeding damage isn't stopped with THPs.

[MilleniaAntares]

Fair enough, though I'm not quite sure there's an easy answer here.


The name of the game is combat healing. Maybe I should have stuck combat in front of medic, but there's an unwritten rule about base classes only having one word names...
Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) says otherwise.

[Elricaltovilla]

Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) says otherwise.

And the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) is one word, but really ought to be two. Exception that proves the rule.

[CGNefarious]

I just want to say, I love any form of lifesteal that is added into pathfinder. I'm also a fan of the Angel of Mercy. I guess I'm just a fan of extremes. Or possibly cool names.

[MilleniaAntares]

Perhaps Triage can benefit from getting fluff text similar to an alchemist's alchemy/bomb/mutagen class features, in which reference is made to preparing triages from a smattering of materials (herbs, bandages, syringes, etc) at the beginning of the day... and perhaps between encounters?

Also, as written treat deadly wounds only affects one person for each hour. I'm not sure if you'd like to add the ability to treat deadly wounds for multiple people at once with Improved Treatment.

[Elricaltovilla]

Perhaps Triage can benefit from getting fluff text similar to an alchemist's alchemy/bomb/mutagen class features, in which reference is made to preparing triages from a smattering of materials (herbs, bandages, syringes, etc) at the beginning of the day... and perhaps between encounters?

Also, as written treat deadly wounds only affects one person for each hour. I'm not sure if you'd like to add the ability to treat deadly wounds for multiple people at once with Improved Treatment.

A concrete fluff definition of triage might help put some minds at ease, though I personally don't like doing that as it feels like I'm invalidating peoples' character concepts.

[MilleniaAntares]

A concrete fluff definition of triage might help put some minds at ease, though I personally don't like doing that as it feels like I'm invalidating peoples' character concepts.
Maybe you can have a sidebar with the question "What is Triage?" and have examples of how it'd work. Poultices or leeches for a medieval setting, injectables, bandages, and medicine in a modern/futuristic setting, technological healing rays (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/616221445687304030/20C824F31935C605C005D118E79D24EB7AE8624D/), yelling at people to stop being cowards (http://www.thedailyblink.com/comics/2011-03-30-129.jpg)...

[Shackel]

A concrete fluff definition of triage might help put some minds at ease, though I personally don't like doing that as it feels like I'm invalidating peoples' character concepts.


Maybe you can have a sidebar with the question "What is Triage?" and have examples of how it'd work. Poultices or leeches for a medieval setting, injectables, bandages, and medicine in a modern/futuristic setting, technological healing rays (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/616221445687304030/20C824F31935C605C005D118E79D24EB7AE8624D/), yelling at people to stop being cowards (http://www.thedailyblink.com/comics/2011-03-30-129.jpg)...

I like that idea; I just think that Triage is so "crunchy" and detailed in its uses and limitations that it should at least have something to help explain what the resource is IC.

[Elricaltovilla]

Still trying to fix the math on Medic's triage ability. After doing a bunch of calculations, I think the best option is to stop trying to tie the healing to WIS and just make it a steady amount. So triage healing is now a flat amount per level (5 hp per level). I'm also removing the text limiting triage to healing only recent wounds/conditions, since that's only causing more problems than it solves.

A fluff sidebar was also added to help give some grounding to how triage heals.

[Milo v3]

Ambu-Lancer is going to get it's name changed right...?

[Elricaltovilla]

Ambu-Lancer is going to get it's name changed right...?

Why would it need to be changed? The archetype is from the April Augmented release. Changing the name means that any changes made to the archetype result in April Augmented's Ambu-Lancer becomes the only non-functional material produced in April Augmented.

[stack]

Why would it need to be changed? The archetype is from the April Augmented release. Changing the name means that any changes made to the archetype result in April Augmented's Ambu-Lancer becomes the only non-functional material produced in April Augmented.

I think obsoleting the archetype in the April fools release is less of a concern than an excessively punny name in a normal release. You could even have a line saying it replaces the previous release.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think obsoleting the archetype in the April fools release is less of a concern than an excessively punny name in a normal release. You could even have a line saying it replaces the previous release.

Respectfully, I disagree. I'm proud of the Ambu-lancer as both a mechanical archetype and a horrible, groan inducing pun. Nobody should take themselves too seriously and nobody playing Pathfinder is required to call themselves an Ambu-lancer in game, so I'd rather keep the original name and enjoy it for what it is.

[MilleniaAntares]

I like ambu-lancer too! Though it still needs lance proficiency!

Maybe we can get a para-medic archetype later on!

[Elricaltovilla]

I like ambu-lancer too! Though it still needs lance proficiency!

Maybe we can get a para-medic archetype later on!

Uh, Medic has proficiency with all martial weapons and Ambu-lancer doesn't change weapon proficiency. So there's no need to specify proficiency with lances at all.

The only thing I might do is give base medic Tempest Gale instead of Piercing Thunder and then have ambu-lancer get Piercing Thunder as a discipline swap.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm confused regarding the April releases (both Augmented and Errata): Are these serious additions and changes to PoW? Or are they to be treated like a funny April fools joke?

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm confused regarding the April releases (both Augmented and Errata): Are these serious additions and changes to PoW? Or are they to be treated like a funny April fools joke?

The PoW Errata is more or less a straight up joke, based on the Errata for the original Tome of Battle from 3.5, which rather famously cuts off mid word and continues on with the errata from Complete Mage.

The April Augmented material is all written with the intent to be playable and useable in any game that allows DSP content. They're just all a bit silly.

[stack]

Is this part of PoW3: Where is this bloody war anyway?, or is it intended to be a stand-alone release with no ties to a future hypothetical book?

[Elricaltovilla]

Is this part of PoW3: Where is this bloody war anyway?, or is it intended to be a stand-alone release with no ties to a future hypothetical book?

I can't give a straight answer to that as the status of PoW3: What Do You Mean the War's Already Over? is completely up in the air. This is going to be part of DSP's patreon pdf releases, but beyond that I can't confirm anything else.

[Adamsmithchan]

Alright, got some feedback from the chans I was told to throw down here.
I could see the medic's triage getting 3x IL at first level, scaling up by 1 at 4th level and every other time you get another another use triage up to a maximum of 6 at 16, with a medic expertise that can increase it by 1 more.
You could arguably be on par with the vitalist in terms of healing instead of significantly better than it.

[ANSeranov]

I really can't express how much I love the Medic, and I'm super looking forward to playing one in my friend's game that is starting in the next week or two.

I'm looking at Triage again, and I'm just now realizing that with the full-round action version, the Medic can't actually patch up their own wounds. It specifies that allies must be adjacent to the Medic during the Medic's movement to get healed, and as we know, you are never adjacent to yourself. Would it be possible to either give the Medic specific wording to allow them to heal themselves, too, or roll this benefit into a Medic's Expertise, such as adding it to Regroup, or maybe making a completely new one?

[Elricaltovilla]

Alright, got some feedback from the chans I was told to throw down here.
I could see the medic's triage getting 3x IL at first level, scaling up by 1 at 4th level and every other time you get another another use triage up to a maximum of 6 at 16, with a medic expertise that can increase it by 1 more.
You could arguably be on par with the vitalist in terms of healing instead of significantly better than it.

Triage currently scales at 5xIL, which starts out slightly better than the vitalist (on average) but ends up being less healing overall as you get into the upper levels. The scaling proposed here would wind up with lower starting numbers (when healing is needed most) and end up with higher numbers at the upper levels (competing directly with the vitalist at 6 or 7 x IL), so I think that is probably not a good idea.


I really can't express how much I love the Medic, and I'm super looking forward to playing one in my friend's game that is starting in the next week or two.

I'm looking at Triage again, and I'm just now realizing that with the full-round action version, the Medic can't actually patch up their own wounds. It specifies that allies must be adjacent to the Medic during the Medic's movement to get healed, and as we know, you are never adjacent to yourself. Would it be possible to either give the Medic specific wording to allow them to heal themselves, too, or roll this benefit into a Medic's Expertise, such as adding it to Regroup, or maybe making a completely new one?

I figured the medic's ability to heal themselves as a swift action would probably be enough to keep them functional. If I do add this functionality it'll probably be as a new medic's expertise.

[ANSeranov]

As its own Medic's Expertise sounds good to me. You mentioned that you want to hold 2 charges of Triage for the end of a fight, and I wouldn't want to make that 3 charges just so I can heal myself AND the party at the same time.

[Elricaltovilla]

As its own Medic's Expertise sounds good to me. You mentioned that you want to hold 2 charges of Triage for the end of a fight, and I wouldn't want to make that 3 charges just so I can heal myself AND the party at the same time.

Went ahead and added that new triage expertise.

[Taveena]

WELP. Hella okay with the idea of a mundane healer class. Given all my concerns about Triage seem to be addressed, it all looks a LOT of fun.

Sanguinist is presently worded a bit confusingly - Blood Transfusion altering Triage without... actually altering Triage, and Blood Reserve being standalone...
Assuming that's just backwards, it's still a bit weird because it LOOKS like a flat nerf. Is it meant to be a more offensive archetype?

Weird thought, but would it make sense for the Witch Doctor to have access to Cursed Razor for additional witchery? It's (Su), but so is Steel Serpent. I dunno.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'll see about fixing the wording for sanguinist's abilities if you don't mind going into more detail about what the issue seems to be.

The sanguinist archetype is meant to be much more aggressive than other medics. It's the only one with an innate damage bonus, and it has to hurt in order to heal so it plays differently.

[Taveena]

Sorry for being unclear. ^^ It mostly feels like Blood Transfusion should come before Blood Reserve (as the latter is dependant on the former), and that it should be Blood Reserve altering Triage rather than Blood Transfusion, as Transfusion doesn't actually affect Triage at all.

At the moment, "Whenever the sanguinist uses triage to heal an ally, the sanguinist draws those hit points from her blood reserve instead of providing the normal amount of healing from triage." is a little odd, because exactly how much healing you can draw from your Blood Reserve is unclear - is it capped at the same amount as Triage, or can you consume more Blood Reserve if you have more in store? What happens if you have less Blood Reserve than the amount your Triage would heal?

tl;dr: how many limitations of Triage apply to Blood Reserve?

[Elricaltovilla]

Sorry for being unclear. ^^ It mostly feels like Blood Transfusion should come before Blood Reserve (as the latter is dependant on the former), and that it should be Blood Reserve altering Triage rather than Blood Transfusion, as Transfusion doesn't actually affect Triage at all.

At the moment, "Whenever the sanguinist uses triage to heal an ally, the sanguinist draws those hit points from her blood reserve instead of providing the normal amount of healing from triage." is a little odd, because exactly how much healing you can draw from your Blood Reserve is unclear - is it capped at the same amount as Triage, or can you consume more Blood Reserve if you have more in store? What happens if you have less Blood Reserve than the amount your Triage would heal?

tl;dr: how many limitations of Triage apply to Blood Reserve?

For the sanguinist, the amount of hit points in the blood reserve determines how much you can heal with triage. If you have 44 hit points in your blood reserve, you can heal up to 44 hit points with one use of triage, but then your blood reserve is reduced by an equivalent amount. The only restriction that applies from triage is the limited number of uses per encounter. This is why there's currently no upper limit on the amount of hit points you can have in your blood reserve, because the sanguinist needs to keep a lot of hit points on hand in order to be able to heal.

[Powerdork]

Just a tip while I get to work absorbing information: There's a reason the Special lines on class tables (listing the class features) only have an initial capital, for the first feature. It's vastly more readable.

[Taveena]

For the sanguinist, the amount of hit points in the blood reserve determines how much you can heal with triage. If you have 44 hit points in your blood reserve, you can heal up to 44 hit points with one use of triage, but then your blood reserve is reduced by an equivalent amount. The only restriction that applies from triage is the limited number of uses per encounter. This is why there's currently no upper limit on the amount of hit points you can have in your blood reserve, because the sanguinist needs to keep a lot of hit points on hand in order to be able to heal.

Alright. Probably worth explicitly stating that they don't have to deal with the standard limitations.

[Nyaa]

Why are expertises learned at odd levels? You already get a feat and new maneuver level. I'd move it to 1, 2 and every even level thereafter.

[Elricaltovilla]

Why are expertises learned at odd levels? You already get a feat and new maneuver level. I'd move it to 1, 2 and every even level thereafter.

Because they're scaled to match the spell level that equivalent healing/condition removal spells come on line. Moving them to even levels would have the condition removal expertises come online either a level early, or a level late. Neither of those are good options.

[stack]

Because they're scaled to match the spell level that equivalent healing/condition removal spells come on line. Moving them to even levels would have the condition removal expertises come online either a level early, or a level late. Neither of those are good options.

Those poor oracles.

Who am I kidding? They get that stuff from scrolls and wands anyway, you can't waste spells known on condition removal.

[Elricaltovilla]

Those poor oracles.

Who am I kidding? They get that stuff from scrolls and wands anyway, you can't waste spells known on condition removal.

I can't really do anything to help oracle or sorcerer.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i guess i read it wrong the first time. But triage is a swift action? does that mean you can move, heal an ally, and then still have the rest of your actions for that turn? maybe even another move?

also, no Silver Crane? wouldnt the healing discipline fit right in?
[edit,edit] nevermind, forgot to read the archetypes

[Elricaltovilla]

i guess i read it wrong the first time. But triage is a swift action? does that mean you can move, heal an ally, and then still have the rest of your actions for that turn? maybe even another move?

Yes, that is exactly what it means.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Yes, that is exactly what it means.

cool, seems like a fun way to stimulate teamwork and tactics

[Taveena]

The weird thing about the Medic is that at the moment there's relatively little incentive to use Triage in-combat, and a lot of incentive to just burn through Triage charges during the 10 rounds after initiative ends.

I mean, it does kinda fit the theme. Still triage at that point. The weird thing is the possibility of using Triage on uninjured allies as swift action movement. Makes Medic a weirdly strong dip for classes that want mobility.

[Elricaltovilla]

The weird thing about the Medic is that at the moment there's relatively little incentive to use Triage in-combat, and a lot of incentive to just burn through Triage charges during the 10 rounds after initiative ends.

I mean, it does kinda fit the theme. Still triage at that point. The weird thing is the possibility of using Triage on uninjured allies as swift action movement. Makes Medic a weirdly strong dip for classes that want mobility.

If you're familiar with 3.5, Triage use as a movement ability is a heavily restricted version of Travel Devotion. It's a good teamwork option, but its tactical ability is pretty tightly controlled.

[Azoth]

Since they seem compatible, while the fluff contradicts a bit, comboing Angel of Mercy and Sanguinist seems fun. Sure you give up pretty much all of your early game expertise (both 1st level, 3rd level, and 5th level), but thematically it can be very creepy.

"My mercy is not without a price. Would you have me take of another, just to save yourself?"

On a side note, how does the Sanguinist's Blood Reserve interact with someone targeting an ally with a Silver Crane strike that heals damage and choosing the victim of the strike to be the recipient of said healing?

Say I put down my weapon, and used an unarmed strike to deliver Enduring Crane Strike. The attack deals 1d3+str mod subdual damage, then drained Wis mod health, since the target is my "ally" and within 30ft I can designate him to heal 1d6 damage. This should be enough (theoretically) to heal the drain, and subdual damage fully.

There is nothing stopping me, since once I make an attack roll an "encounter" has begun, from just spamming & recharging the strike to fill my Blood Pool to NI, short of my buddy getting tired of being punched in the face

[Nyaa]

There is nothing stopping me

Your GM shaking a bag of kittens at you?

[Swaoeaeieu]

the sanguinists blood reserve mention he or she stores the extra dmg from transfusion inside in her blood reserve as extra hit points. you can then use triage to give that health to allies. but if you dont hand it out. does that mean you get the extra hitpoints yourself like temporary hitpoints? ir are they just for savekeeping until you hand them out?

[Elricaltovilla]

the sanguinists blood reserve mention he or she stores the extra dmg from transfusion inside in her blood reserve as extra hit points. you can then use triage to give that health to allies. but if you dont hand it out. does that mean you get the extra hitpoints yourself like temporary hitpoints? ir are they just for savekeeping until you hand them out?

The ability makes zero mention of temporary hit points in any way. If it provided temporary hit points, it would say so explicitly. Blood Reserve is a tally count of how much hp you have available to hand out when you use triage and nothing more.

[Swaoeaeieu]

The ability makes zero mention of temporary hit points in any way. If it provided temporary hit points, it would say so explicitly. Blood Reserve is a tally count of how much hp you have available to hand out when you use triage and nothing more.

Yea i know it doesnt mention temporary hitpoints, it just sounded a bit like it is all. thanks for the clarification!


Blood Reserve (Su): At 1st level, the sanguinist gains the ability to store the vitality of others within her body. Whenever the sanguinist uses her blood transfusion ability to deal additional damage, that extra damage is stored as hit points in her blood reserve. Whenever the sanguinist uses triage to heal an ally, the sanguinist draws those hit points from her blood reserve instead of providing the normal amount of healing from triage. When using triage, the sanguinist can heal a number of hit points up to the total amount currently in her blood reserve, however she may determine the exact amount healed at the time she uses her triage.

bolded is the part that made it a little confusing. could be just me tho. since it mentions storing the blood as hitpoints. but ok, no hitpoints for the medic, just his friends. got it!

[iDesu]

Personally I think encounter powers should recover when you use your recovery ability since there's no way of telling if an encounter is going to last 3 rounds or 30 rounds. While most encounters won't last more than 5 rounds or so, in the ones that do, the medic gets screwed. Overall there's no change for short term fights and it's beneficial (and ties in with the initiating side) for long term fights.

[Taveena]

Yea i know it doesnt mention temporary hitpoints, it just sounded a bit like it is all. thanks for the clarification!



bolded is the part that made it a little confusing. could be just me tho. since it mentions storing the blood as hitpoints. but ok, no hitpoints for the medic, just his friends. got it!

Well, the medic can still Triage themselves.

Also, Travel Devotion being on a /day recharge messed with its utility to an extent. I dunno, as long as you've got one melee party member in the fray then you can join in immediately and start full attacking. Or. Y'know, whatever it is you want to do with your full round action.

[Elricaltovilla]

Personally I think encounter powers should recover when you use your recovery ability since there's no way of telling if an encounter is going to last 3 rounds or 30 rounds. While most encounters won't last more than 5 rounds or so, in the ones that do, the medic gets screwed. Overall there's no change for short term fights and it's beneficial (and ties in with the initiating side) for long term fights.

Got a fix for this implemented. Under maneuvers readied:


A medic may recover maneuvers in one of two ways. She may take a standard action to assess the situation and her allies to regain one expended maneuver. Alternatively, the medic may spend a full round action to reassure her allies of her presence, granting all allies within 30 feet temporary hit points equal to 3 times her initiator level and a bonus to fortitude saves equal to her initiation modifier for one round. These temporary hit points last for one minute or until lost, and stack with temporary hit points gained from other sources, but not from additional uses of the medic’s maneuver recovery. If she does so, the medic recovers a number of expended maneuvers equal to her medic initiation modifier. In addition, if the medic has no remaining uses of triage available for the encounter, she regains one additional use of triage.

Bolded is the important part.

[Shackel]

Got a fix for this implemented. Under maneuvers readied:



Bolded is the important part.

Such a simple solution I'm surprised it wasn't thought of much earlier. That fixes a lot!

[Elricaltovilla]

Such a simple solution I'm surprised it wasn't thought of much earlier. That fixes a lot!

Well, to be fair I haven't had computer access for like a week.

[EldritchWeaver]

Got a fix for this implemented. Under maneuvers readied:



Bolded is the important part.

Does that mean that a medic always has at least one use of a triage left per round?

[Elricaltovilla]

Does that mean that a medic always has at least one use of a triage left per round?

No, it means that when you use the full round maneuver recovery method, and you have 0 triage uses left, you regain one use of triage. That's why it's in the paragraph describing the effects of the medic's maneuver recovery.

[Azoth]

Another thing I noticed about the Sanguinist's Blood Transfusion ability, there is no minimum HD requirement for a target nor a requirement the target has Wis mod health remaining.

This means a sanguinist can just get a sack of rats, squirrels, chihuahuas, any vermin really, and just spend time punching them to gain Wisdom mod x Ni amount of healing in his blood pool.

Another odd foible is requiring lethal damage. Does this mean that if a Sanguinist's attack doesn't bypass a creature's regeneration that he can not use Blood Transfusion on that creature? Or does it mean that he can not intend to do non-lethal damage and trigger the ability?

If the latter, then Skill Focus Knowledge (any), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), Improved Familiar (Inevitable, Arbiter), will give a Sanguinist NI healing all day long.

If the former, then there are several creatures that are outright immune to Blood Transfusion's ability.

[Vhaidara]

Another odd foible is requiring lethal damage. Does this mean that if a Sanguinist's attack doesn't bypass a creature's regeneration that he can not use Blood Transfusion on that creature?

Point of order on this, PF Regeneration doesn't convert to nonlethal. I'll use Regen beaten by fire for the example.
You take damage as normal. Regen works as Fast Healing. As long as the regeneration is active, you cannot die.
When you take fire damage, Regeneration turns off NEXT round. So you don't heal, and you can be killed.

[Azoth]

Point of order on this, PF Regeneration doesn't convert to nonlethal. I'll use Regen beaten by fire for the example.
You take damage as normal. Regen works as Fast Healing. As long as the regeneration is active, you cannot die.
When you take fire damage, Regeneration turns off NEXT round. So you don't heal, and you can be killed.

That is what I get for not double checking if I was remembering 3.5 or Pathfinder Regeneration.

In any case the Arbiter Familiar does provide a Sanguinist with infinite healing in his blood pool should that be the case. As he can not shut down its Regeneration, and he can get it to -NI without worry of killing it.

Before I hear an argument about wasting time doing so, do remember that if the party has a Wizard or Cleric in the party he has an hour to kill waiting on them to prep spells. Even if his Wis is only 16 so +3 modifier, and he only lands 1 hit a round, 3x10(rounds in a minute)x60(minutes in an hour)=1800HP in his blood pool. No one is dying unless it is to a OHKO that day.

[Castilonium]

The designers of Dreamscarred Press don't seem to mind limitless healing. That's either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your personal playstyle and tastes.

I like it, because as a player, it means I'm less likely to die and thus get to continue playing the character I want to play, rather than having to make a new one that I didn't want to play. Also, having adventuring days that go on longer than 5 minutes is fun. As a GM, I like being able to make encounters more damaging and dangerous with higher CR enemies, and thus more dramatic and interesting. It's more fun to throw bigger scarier enemies at players that I know they can handle, than it is to have their HP and spell slots slowly whittled down by goblins and bandits that only hit on a natural 20.

But that's just playstyle philosophy. My point is, I don't think they're going to change the fact that the medic has limitless healing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Another thing I noticed about the Sanguinist's Blood Transfusion ability, there is no minimum HD requirement for a target nor a requirement the target has Wis mod health remaining.

This means a sanguinist can just get a sack of rats, squirrels, chihuahuas, any vermin really, and just spend time punching them to gain Wisdom mod x Ni amount of healing in his blood pool.

There is no minimum HD requirement because putting one on the sanguinist's blood transfusion would heavily restrict their ability to heal at low levels, which are statistically the most lethal. Besides, in Pathfinder, everything has at least 1 HD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/-bestiary-by-challenge-rating/-bestiary-cr-1). In any case, there's an article on this that helps illustrate some of the issues with this logical fallacy/logistical nightmare. (http://dreamscarred.com/the-bag-of-kittens-and-you/)


Another odd foible is requiring lethal damage. Does this mean that if a Sanguinist's attack doesn't bypass a creature's regeneration that he can not use Blood Transfusion on that creature? Or does it mean that he can not intend to do non-lethal damage and trigger the ability?

This was already sort of addressed by Keledrath, but to put a point to it: You can't really drain the very life essence from a being without actually trying to kill them, so yeah, lethal intent (and lethal damage) is necessary.


That is what I get for not double checking if I was remembering 3.5 or Pathfinder Regeneration.

In any case the Arbiter Familiar does provide a Sanguinist with infinite healing in his blood pool should that be the case. As he can not shut down its Regeneration, and he can get it to -NI without worry of killing it.

Before I hear an argument about wasting time doing so, do remember that if the party has a Wizard or Cleric in the party he has an hour to kill waiting on them to prep spells. Even if his Wis is only 16 so +3 modifier, and he only lands 1 hit a round, 3x10(rounds in a minute)x60(minutes in an hour)=1800HP in his blood pool. No one is dying unless it is to a OHKO that day.

So, I found the issue. There used to be a line in the sanguinist's Blood Transfusion that somehow didn't get transferred into the playtest document. So thanks for making me look that up, I've added it back in. The line in question is:


If the target has fewer hit points remaining than the sanguinist’s initiation modifier, she cannot transfer that additional damage to her blood reserve as healing.


Let's check the math on this scenario with the addition of the new rule and see where that puts us.

We'll assume the minimum level necessary to achieve this trick, in this case 9th (sorcerer level -2 for familiar means that you need to be 7th+2 level in order to pick up the Arbiter familiar). And we'll assume that both the DM and the Arbiter are totally okay with this arrangement. We'll assume a 1 hour timetable, while the wizard prepares his spells. It also takes the sanguinist 10 minutes to prepare her maneuvers in the morning, but for the purposes of this, we'll just assume she already did it while the wizard slept in :smalltongue:.

We'll assume that the sanguinist has 14 CON and put all her FCBs into HP, with max HP at 1st and average after, she'd have 71 HP. Familiars have 1/2 their master's HP, putting the Arbiter's HP at 35.

A Sanguinist at this level deals a base 1d6 damage with her unarmed strike, plus her STR or DEX (We'll assume 16), plus her WIS (which you suggested 16 or +3). So her minimum damage is 1d6+6, averaging 9.5 damage per round. After about 4 rounds, the arbiter drops into negatives (to about -3), and the sanguinist must wait at least 3 rounds (because regen 2) before the Arbiter's health goes back up to 3 HP and she can drain another 3 HP to add to her blood reserve. From there, her average damage (9.5) means that she can only add to her blood reserve every 4.5 rounds going forward.

So the math on an hours worth of beating up a masochistic inevitable goes from 3x10(rounds in a minute)x60(minutes in an hour)=1800HP to (3x4*)+(3x(593**/4.5))+3***= 410 Hit points. In comparison a 9th level standard medic heals up to 225 hit points per encounter (45 hp per triage, 5 triage per encounter) giving you about 2 encounters worth of healing to work with assuming your party is entirely comprised of suicidal idiots :smalltongue:.

Obviously this is variable depending on the amount of regeneration and the amount of healing you take from the target. It also assumes you don't miss any of your attack rolls.

*Initial round of attacks
**600 rounds in an hour, -7 from initial attacks and secondary attack
***Secondary attack, required 3 rounds of regeneration


TL;DR: New rule drops this exploit from 1800 HP to 410 HP per hour, which is just a bit less than 10 triage uses on a normal medic.

[Azoth]

Okay, so "hit points remaining" is defined as "hit points remaining before being reduced below 0 Hit Points". It may be better to use that exact wording or something similar enough. Some may see "hit points remaining" and view it as, "If it isn't dead due to being reduced beyond the threshold of negative HP necessary to kill it, then it still has HP for me to drain with my Blood Transfusion".

[CGNefarious]

Maybe I'm just weird, but as both a GM and a player I tend to look at "exploits" like this the same way I look at the commoner railgun. Sure, the rules may technically support it, but you're an idiot if you try to actually do it in a game and I'm going to look at you a little more than askance. Both in and out of character.

That said, I still love this class. It makes me actually want to play a healer, which I never thought would happen.

[Elricaltovilla]

Okay, so "hit points remaining" is defined as "hit points remaining before being reduced below 0 Hit Points". It may be better to use that exact wording or something similar enough. Some may see "hit points remaining" and view it as, "If it isn't dead due to being reduced beyond the threshold of negative HP necessary to kill it, then it still has HP for me to drain with my Blood Transfusion".

If X<WIS, then you can't heal off of it. If WIS equals 3, it doesn't matter if X is 2 or -2,000,000 that's still less than WIS.

[Elricaltovilla]

There will be some major changes coming to the medic soon(ish). It will take a while to implement them, but I will keep you updated.

[CGNefarious]

Awesome. I just started building Avacyn, my Angel of Mercy Sanguinist. I'll try not to get too far with the character until the changes are implemented.

[Elricaltovilla]

Awesome. I just started building Avacyn, my Angel of Mercy Sanguinist. I'll try not to get too far with the character until the changes are implemented.

Huh, I guess those do stack. I'll do my best to keep that available then.

[Valerem]

So, I'm gonna read this a review this tomorrow, but whilst I wait for the time to review this, I have a quick question.

What over DSP stuff is in the works on this forum? Save Occult Stuff, that doesn't interest me.

[Azoth]

Huh, I guess those do stack. I'll do my best to keep that available then.

I brought that up two weeks ago, when several of us started in on the various ways to get a significant boost to the Sanguinist's Blood Pool.

It does kind of hamper you early game by giving up both 1st level, the 3rd level, and 5th level expertise. Best way to mitigate that is to play a Human to recoup the Expertise lost.

I liked the combination because of the few passive buffs of the Angel of Mercy, and giving native access to Silver Crane. This means that earlier in the day a Sanguinist can still meaningfully do his job as a combat healer before his Blood Pool has been filled to a meaningful level.

It is also a combination that lends itself well to being a Dex based build. Giving good saves, respectable AC, and good initiative to be proactive without sacrificing damage potential. Mainly because unarmed strikes can't benefit from 1 1/2 strength or the -1/+3 of power attack. So a Fitness/deadly agility/piranha strike base goes wonderfully on it.

I have been meaning to do a mock up that uses thrashing dragon and TWFing to see how reliably and quickly a Sanguinist can fill their Blood Pool/kill enemies beyond lvl10. Wanting to try and find the optimum balancing point between efficiently killing CR appropriate foes, and filling a blood pool to a useful level when burst healing is necessary.

[CGNefarious]

I'm actually into it mostly because of the flavor. But I do think a Sanguinist hurts for healing early game, and Silver Crane really helps that out. I was planning on using a Glaive and Unarmed Strikes together (a foolish notion, I know) so I can stay relatively safe with my reach weapon, healing with Silver Crane and using my Unarmed Strikes when enemies get close or I want to fill my blood reserve. It's probably a terrible build, but who cares as long as it's fun?

The lack of expertise I think is mitigated by having access to Silver Crane. You won't be as much a straight healer as a normal medic, but you should suffice.

[Azoth]

Yeah giving up the first 4 expertise hurts a bit, but by being human (or something that counts as human), you can regain 4 expertise over the course of leveling. So not terrible.

A good expertise to pick up semi-early on a Sanguinist is Invigorating Touch. When your pool is low giving your buddies Fast Healing is a good cover.

As an added benefit you get some specialties built into other abilities, and in some cases they are straight upgrades compared to expertise. Unnatural Vitality at level 5 is like 4 expertise rolled one ability (all of the treat/cure disease/poison ones) and 2 of them several levels before a normal Medic could take them. Aura of Protection is a great way to save everyone a bit over 500 gp to be immune to Evil mind control.

[CGNefarious]

Invigorating Touch is actually a pretty good idea. Too bad I wouldn't be able to get it until 5th level. =(

Honestly, as they are currently written, most Expertise don't seem to jive well with the Sanguinist. Like Martial Healing. I'm not quite sure how it works with Blood Reservoir. Though I'm sure all that will be made clearer with the reworking.

Elrich, do you plan on adding new disciplines for this class? I know all the PoW:E classes got special disciplines, but I'm not sure if that is a template that all new Initiator classes will follow or if it was just an Expanded thing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Invigorating Touch is actually a pretty good idea. Too bad I wouldn't be able to get it until 5th level. =(

Part of the big rework is to make this a little better to deal with.


Honestly, as they are currently written, most Expertise don't seem to jive well with the Sanguinist. Like Martial Healing. I'm not quite sure how it works with Blood Reservoir. Though I'm sure all that will be made clearer with the reworking.

So when you use triage as a sanguinist, you transfer however many hit points you want. If you're using triage via martial healing, you halve the number of hit points your triage heals. So if you wanted to heal say... 10 hit points, you would need to use 20 hit points from your blood reserve.


Elrich, do you plan on adding new disciplines for this class? I know all the PoW:E classes got special disciplines, but I'm not sure if that is a template that all new Initiator classes will follow or if it was just an Expanded thing.

This is part of a much smaller release (our patreon releases), so there is no room to add a new discipline, and I never intended for Medic to need a whole new discipline anyway. So no, medic will not be coming paired with a new discipline.

[Azoth]

I doubt my Angel of Mercy/Sanguinist Medic is overly optimized, but it is a blast to play at level 10. Currently I seem to be leading the party in DPR/spike damage, and that is against a Warlod using Primal Fury.

My healing is light early day, relying on Silver Crane Strikes and Invigorating Touch Expertise to keep everyone up. During the "hard" fights being able to burst heal the allies I need to from near dead back to full is handy.

I currently TWF unarmed and spend most combats in Battle Dragon's Stance, occasionally switching to Stance of the Crane Knight if I need to fly after an enemy or I need the DR. So far I havent had too many issues.

Though I did scare the DM with Night's Knife + Dragon Assault while Hasted and in Battle Dragon Stance. 5 attacks at +19/+19/19/+14/+14 for 2d6+34 [(1d6 base +1d6(stance) +6(dex) +2 (brawler armor) +8(Wis from stance) +10 (ranks in heal) +8(Drained to blood pool)]each before adding in the scaling +1d6 for each successful hit when all of them hit due to good rolls. Boss took 20d6+170, totaled out to 274 damage and was technically dead after the third hit. It was beautiful!

[Elricaltovilla]

I doubt my Angel of Mercy/Sanguinist Medic is overly optimized, but it is a blast to play at level 10. Currently I seem to be leading the party in DPR/spike damage, and that is against a Warlod using Primal Fury.

My healing is light early day, relying on Silver Crane Strikes and Invigorating Touch Expertise to keep everyone up. During the "hard" fights being able to burst heal the allies I need to from near dead back to full is handy.

I currently TWF unarmed and spend most combats in Battle Dragon's Stance, occasionally switching to Stance of the Crane Knight if I need to fly after an enemy or I need the DR. So far I havent had too many issues.

Though I did scare the DM with Night's Knife + Dragon Assault while Hasted and in Battle Dragon Stance. 5 attacks at +19/+19/19/+14/+14 for 2d6+34 [(1d6 base +1d6(stance) +6(dex) +2 (brawler armor) +8(Wis from stance) +10 (ranks in heal) +8(Drained to blood pool)]each before adding in the scaling +1d6 for each successful hit when all of them hit due to good rolls. Boss took 20d6+170, totaled out to 274 damage and was technically dead after the third hit. It was beautiful!

I'm glad you're enjoying playing a medic, and that Angel of Mercy/Sanguinist is working out for you, but I did notice an error in your damage math there. Both Battle Dragon's Stance and Blood Transfusion provide an untyped bonus equal to IM to damage. Unfortunately, those don't stack. So you'd need to reduce your damage by 8 per hit. Meaning you'd be dealing 2d6+26 per hit and your total damage would have been 20d6+130.

[Azoth]

Blood Transfusion (Su): Starting at 1st level, the sanguinist gains the ability to drain the lifeblood of a creature, store that vitality and transfer it elsewhere. Once per round, when the sanguinist makes a successful attack with an unarmed strike or natural attack, she can drain a number of additional hit points from her target equal to her initiation modifier. These hit points are stored in the sanguinist’s blood reserve. Any unarmed strike or natural attack modified by her blood transfusion ability is treated as a magic weapon. At 10th level, the sanguinist can drain hit points with every unarmed strike or natural attack she makes. In order to use her blood transfusion ability, the sanguinist must deal lethal damage to the target. If the target’s current hit points are less than the sanguinist’s initiation modifier, she cannot transfer that additional damage to her blood reserve as healing.

The bolded section of the ability calls out that the Sanguinist "drains" hit points equal to his initiation modifier on a successful hit. It does not call out that it is bonus damage, or that it is even really damage to begin with. Draining Wis mod HP from an enemy seems a completely separate effect that just requires a successful unarmed strike/natural attack that is designated to attempt to inflict lethal damage in order to be triggered.

Current wording makes it sound like:

1) Roll to hit with unarmed strike (doing lethal damage)

2) Confirm the attack hit

3) Deal Damage as normal for the attack

4) Drain Wis mod HP from enemy to add to blood pool.

In its current wording it seems like splitting the difference between ability damage and ability drain, but applied to HP instead of stats.

[Elricaltovilla]

Blood Transfusion (Su): Starting at 1st level, the sanguinist gains the ability to drain the lifeblood of a creature, store that vitality and transfer it elsewhere. Once per round, when the sanguinist makes a successful attack with an unarmed strike or natural attack, she can drain a number of additional hit points from her target equal to her initiation modifier. These hit points are stored in the sanguinist’s blood reserve. Any unarmed strike or natural attack modified by her blood transfusion ability is treated as a magic weapon. At 10th level, the sanguinist can drain hit points with every unarmed strike or natural attack she makes. In order to use her blood transfusion ability, the sanguinist must deal lethal damage to the target. If the target’s current hit points are less than the sanguinist’s initiation modifier, she cannot transfer that additional damage to her blood reserve as healing.

The bolded section of the ability calls out that the Sanguinist "drains" hit points equal to his initiation modifier on a successful hit. It does not call out that it is bonus damage, or that it is even really damage to begin with. Draining Wis mod HP from an enemy seems a completely separate effect that just requires a successful unarmed strike/natural attack that is designated to attempt to inflict lethal damage in order to be triggered.

Current wording makes it sound like:

1) Roll to hit with unarmed strike (doing lethal damage)

2) Confirm the attack hit

3) Deal Damage as normal for the attack

4) Drain Wis mod HP from enemy to add to blood pool.

In its current wording it seems like splitting the difference between ability damage and ability drain, but applied to HP instead of stats.

It is additional damage. Clearing that misconception up is part of the update for medic I'm working on.

[Azoth]

It is additional damage. Clearing that misconception up is part of the update for medic I'm working on.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I am a bit sad to see the damage go, but it does put my damage back closer to normal levels.

[Novawurmson]

I want to give some feedback (and play potentially play one in a campaign starting over the next couple weeks), but if there's a big update coming soon, I'll hold off :smallsmile:. Excited for this, though! Always good to have more options for thematically big and important party roles that tend not to have much support.

[Elricaltovilla]

New medic update is released. Some of the notable changes:


Triage hit point healing lowered at low and mid levels.
Expertise gained at 1st (x2), 2nd and even levels. Expertise prerequisites changed to match.
Cura te Ipsum comes online at level 3
Resuscitation comes online at 9th level
New class feature Greater Resuscitation added at 17th level.
Base Medic starts with Tempest Gale instead of Piercing Thunder. Ambu-lancer trades Tempest Gale for Piercing Thunder.
Archetype trades have been altered to match new scaling for Expertise and other class features.
Sanguinist gets level instead of BAB for GUS progression.
Blood Transfusion's extra damage mechanic clarified.
Sanguinist now trades Cura te ipsum for new feature: Pain's gain.
Unnatural vitality's wording has been fixed to prevent abuse and maintain status as DPR booster.
Witch doctor's Thaumaturgic Medicine has been rescaled to go from 1-9th level spells instead of a custom list of 1-6. New list includes all healing spells plus a whitelist of additional spells detailed in the entry.
Plague doctor feat has been altered to be less finnicky.


That should be everything.

[MilleniaAntares]

The changes are rather good!

[Novawurmson]

Oh, well. I was not expecting it to be that quick. Making a level 4 cleric for playtesting now.

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh, well. I was not expecting it to be that quick. Making a level 4 cleric for playtesting now.

I did announce that the rework was happening over two weeks ago.

[Novawurmson]

I did announce that the rework was happening over two weeks ago.

Yeah, but I didn't really take a look at the medic until yesterday. So it's fast for me!

Guardian of Life comes before Improved Triage, even though Improved Triage is gained at 6 and GoL is gained at 5.


If she does so, the medic recovers a number of expended maneuvers equal to her medic initiation modifier.

Is the "minimum 2" still standard?

Suggested Medic's Expertises:

Extended Recovery: When you spend a full round action to recover maneuvers, you gain temporary hit points to all allies within 60ft. (instead of 30ft.).

Guard Thyself: Whenever you initiate a strike, your Cura te Ipsum lasts for 1 minute or until you make a Reflex or Will save. The medic must be at least 4th level and have the Cura te Ipsum class feature to select this ability.

- - -

Overall, I really like the class and I'm looking forward to playing it :D

Edit: Just to provide more direct feedback, the class is short, sweet, and knows what it wants to do. It's a very tight, clean package with no excess fat, but it's still got some sizzle.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah, but I didn't really take a look at the medic until yesterday. So it's fast for me!

Guardian of Life comes before Improved Triage, even though Improved Triage is gained at 6 and GoL is gained at 5.



Is the "minimum 2" still standard?

Suggested Medic's Expertises:

Extended Recovery: When you spend a full round action to recover maneuvers, you gain temporary hit points to all allies within 60ft. (instead of 30ft.).

Guard Thyself: Whenever you initiate a strike, your Cura te Ipsum lasts for 1 minute or until you make a Reflex or Will save. The medic must be at least 4th level and have the Cura te Ipsum class feature to select this ability.

- - -

Overall, I really like the class and I'm looking forward to playing it :D

I fixed some of those things you caught, thank you. Guard Thyself is pretty good, but extended recovery covers too much area I feel. 30 ft. is already a significant portion of most battle maps.


Edit: Just to provide more direct feedback, the class is short, sweet, and knows what it wants to do. It's a very tight, clean package with no excess fat, but it's still got some sizzle.

Great, now I'm hungry :smalltongue:. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Class looks interesting. A bit odd that there's nothing to deal with bleed damage, though if you're maxing heal you can just use Heal to do that, with reduced action economy. Also, I personally find it a bit vexing that the Sanguinist's Unnatural Vitality only works with poisons dealing ability damage, since I'm a fan of the Unchained disease/poison rules, neither of which deal ability damage. In addition, there are some diseases that resist being cured; does that bypass them?

[Elricaltovilla]

Class looks interesting. A bit odd that there's nothing to deal with bleed damage, though if you're maxing heal you can just use Heal to do that, with reduced action economy. Also, I personally find it a bit vexing that the Sanguinist's Unnatural Vitality only works with poisons dealing ability damage, since I'm a fan of the Unchained disease/poison rules, neither of which deal ability damage.

Unnatural Vitality was always intended to be a DPR increase to fit with the Sanguinist's status as the DPR archetype for the medic. That aside though, there's a very specific reason that limitation was implemented: Drow poison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/drow-poison). The increased save DC for poisons from Unnatural Vitality turned a modest DPR increase/combo with steel serpent into a 95% chance to put nearly any creature not immune to poison out of commission completely. It sucks, but that's the way things are.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I guess the GM would adjudicate that they work with the disease/poison track systems if they are using that in their game. Otherwise that ability, besides the immunities, would be 100% pointless with that ruleset.

[Azoth]

I am a little sad to see the adjustment to Unnatural Vitality, but understand it.

I do have a question involving a different subset of similar items to poisons and diseases. Does Unnatural Vitality interact with drugs?

They are called out to being similar to poisons, but not all are classified as such. Most are just alchemical items. Only a few of them carry a secondary tag identifying them as poisons.

[Elricaltovilla]

I am a little sad to see the adjustment to Unnatural Vitality, but understand it.

I do have a question involving a different subset of similar items to poisons and diseases. Does Unnatural Vitality interact with drugs?

They are called out to being similar to poisons, but not all are classified as such. Most are just alchemical items. Only a few of them carry a secondary tag identifying them as poisons.

Based on my research, drugs are not considered poisons unless they specify otherwise. As such, Unnatural Vitality would not provide immunity to drugs nor would it allow you to remove drugs from the target of your blood transfusion or triage.

[Azoth]

Based on my research, drugs are not considered poisons unless they specify otherwise. As such, Unnatural Vitality would not provide immunity to drugs nor would it allow you to remove drugs from the target of your blood transfusion or triage.

Understandably so, I was curious if we could get an expertise or feat to allow an interaction with them. I know they are a rarely used section of items by most, but I kind of feel like if any class was going to gain a mechanical interaction with drugs it would be the medic.

Currently, the Triage and Blood Transfusion of a Sanguinist can remove someone's addiction to a drug, since addiction is a disease. Just realized that one from rereading the drug section.

[Elricaltovilla]

Understandably so, I was curious if we could get an expertise or feat to allow an interaction with them. I know they are a rarely used section of items by most, but I kind of feel like if any class was going to gain a mechanical interaction with drugs it would be the medic.

Currently, the Triage and Blood Transfusion of a Sanguinist can remove someone's addiction to a drug, since addiction is a disease. Just realized that one from rereading the drug section.

I'll have to read up on the drug rules before I say for sure. The only thing I'm really familiar with from those rules is the horrors of water balloons filled with opium. But I think it's at least worth a look.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm taking the opportunity to bring something to public attention. It was pointed out to me that I made an error, or rather failed to correct an existing error, with the witch doctor's magical assistance ability.

In the alpha stages of the Medic, they could use triage as an immediate action. I removed this for some fairly obvious (I think) balance reasons, but failed to catch that the witch doctor archetype retained that wording. In any case, the witch doctor's wording has been fixed so that Magical Assistance is strictly swift action only. My apologies for the mistake.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i may be reading it wrong, but the triage and medic's expertise text state that you can aply one expertise to your triage. The texts sometimes refer to the ''normal amount of expertises you can aply'' but i cant see anything mentioning increasing that number. Would it be easier to just state it as ''the one expertise you can aply''?

or am i not seeing something?

[Azoth]

i may be reading it wrong, but the triage and medic's expertise text state that you can aply one expertise to your triage. The texts sometimes refer to the ''normal amount of expertises you can aply'' but i cant see anything mentioning increasing that number. Would it be easier to just state it as ''the one expertise you can aply''?

or am i not seeing something?

At levels 5, 10, and 15 the medic can apply an additional expertise effect to his triage. So 2 at lvl5, 3 at lvl10, 4 at lvl15 A normal medic can at lvl20 apply all known expertise to a use of triage.

Those marked as "does not count against the normal amount of expertise you can apply" do not count against that increasing number of expertise a medic can apply to his use of triage.

[Swaoeaeieu]

At levels 5, 10, and 15 the medic can apply an additional expertise effect to his triage. So 2 at lvl5, 3 at lvl10, 4 at lvl15 A normal medic can at lvl20 apply all known expertise to a use of triage.

Those marked as "does not count against the normal amount of expertise you can apply" do not count against that increasing number of expertise a medic can apply to his use of triage.

oh right! stupid mee. improved triage! totally read over that.

[Elricaltovilla]

oh right! stupid mee. improved triage! totally read over that.

Yes, improved triage details how many expertise you can apply to your triage. Should I see if I can squeeze the numbers (2 expertise, 3 expertise, etc.) into the table? You're not the first person to ask that question.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Yes, improved triage details how many expertise you can apply to your triage. Should I see if I can squeeze the numbers (2 expertise, 3 expertise, etc.) into the table? You're not the first person to ask that question.


in the table, or in the triage main text, instead of the normal amount of expertises something like the amount of expertises according to your improved triage. just a reminder that the number increases.
you could say its just my fault for not reading the medic completely, but if others have the same issue a little bit extra reminder might be nice.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've updated the wording of the medic's resuscitation ability. The intent of the original ability was to provide a larger window in which the medic could revive dead allies so that the medic could focus on fighting off enemies and (hopefully) still revive the ally later after it was safe. Since the ability wasn't being used in such a way, I decided to make it more closely match the breath of life spell. The new wording reads:


Resuscitation (Ex): Starting at 9th level, the medic’s ability to treat severe wounds allows her to bring allies back from the very brink of death. The medic can use her triage ability to heal allies that have died within 1 round. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by resuscitation.


EDIT:
Added a new feat to the document as well:



Nemean Lion
Prerequisites: Martial Power, two Golden Lion maneuvers known, two Iron Tortoise maneuvers known
Benefit: Whenever you use the Martial Power feat while maintaining a Golden Lion or Iron Tortoise stance, you also gain damage reduction/– equal to your highest initiation modifier until the start of your next turn.


I'll be keeping an eye on this feat as it might be a little too tanky, but I'm looking forward to your feedback.

[Deadkitten]

I could see it working as DR equal to "highest maneuver level known" if you feel like it's too much of an issue.

[Doc_Maynot]

Oh, hey. New favorite class. No longer will I have to play Warder/Vitalists

[Elricaltovilla]

I could see it working as DR equal to "highest maneuver level known" if you feel like it's too much of an issue.

What I was thinking was to have the feat give you a choice between DR and temp HP. The DR is better if you're taking a lot of physical attacks, while the temp hp handles single attacks better and protects against energy damage as well. But I'm not sure that's needed yet, so I'm going to do some more testing.


Oh, hey. New favorite class. No longer will I have to play Warder/Vitalists

Glad you like it. Let me know if you have any specific feedback.

[Doc_Maynot]

Glad you like it. Let me know if you have any specific feedback.

I'll run it as a NPC encounter and see if anything comes up. But as I see it, it uses my usual disciplines, has health sense and otherwise seems that it'll work as an awesome martial support. Which I typically go vitalist/warder to do.

[Swaoeaeieu]

so funny thing happend today after i tried out my angel of mercy sanguinist medic for the first time today. i forgot to get enough maneuvers that give more then one attack. wich meant i didnt really get much chances to fill up my hp pool. and with all my partymembers losing a lot of health i kept running around healing people with maneuvers and giving temp hit points, but my triage didnt do much.

so for all you sanguinists out there, dont forget to be offensive, or else you wont do much healing.

[Doc_Maynot]

Oh, just now saw the April Release too. Now I have to make a (War Soul/Armored Blade) Soulknife/Daring Hero too. Gah, why must DSP give me so many cool things, it's not even my birthday.

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh, just now saw the April Release too. Now I have to make a (War Soul/Armored Blade) Soulknife/Daring Hero too. Gah, why must DSP give me so many cool things, it's not even my birthday.

Because we love you.

[meemaas]

so funny thing happend today after i tried out my angel of mercy sanguinist medic for the first time today. i forgot to get enough maneuvers that give more then one attack. wich meant i didnt really get much chances to fill up my hp pool. and with all my partymembers losing a lot of health i kept running around healing people with maneuvers and giving temp hit points, but my triage didnt do much.

so for all you sanguinists out there, dont forget to be offensive, or else you wont do much healing.

I'm giving the Sanguinist a try with the Fools Errand discipline. It seems like a perfect fit.

[Azoth]

so funny thing happend today after i tried out my angel of mercy sanguinist medic for the first time today. i forgot to get enough maneuvers that give more then one attack. wich meant i didnt really get much chances to fill up my hp pool. and with all my partymembers losing a lot of health i kept running around healing people with maneuvers and giving temp hit points, but my triage didnt do much.

so for all you sanguinists out there, dont forget to be offensive, or else you wont do much healing.

This is why my Sanguinist uses a healthy measure of Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade. Plenty of methods to unload on someone and fill your blood pool.

Currently level 10 and my best is Dragon Assault with Iron Knuckle, followed closely by Steel Flurry Strike and Night's Knife when I have to move. So much tastey damage...and healing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yep, sanguinist needs that flurry to get its healing off. Don't forget that you can use blood transfusion with natural attacks as well.

[Azoth]

An odd but decent strategy that requires prep, and should only be done when you have time to do so is, beat up an ally and convert that spare wand of CLW/IH into burst healing.

We did this right before storming a big bad's stronghold. I beat another member of the party senseless, had them heal up with a wand of Infernal Healing and, repeated until the wand was spent.

Gave me a 500 HP blood pool for 750gp that could be used to burst heal when it was absolutely needed.

This is not something we do often, but we knew that we needed the buffer for this, and even IC there was hemming and hawing about beating each other senseless just to have the extra staying power.

[shawshank]

I recently started a 20 point buy game playing a Sanguinist Medic using the High Goblin race as every pathfinder race 15 points or lower was allowed. Currently, you can fast heal = wisdom mod in lieu of normal medic healing which circumvents the need for a blood pool early on. I generally start the combat off with a full round action fast healing 4(18 wis) for 10 rounds. After that I go HAM in melee using Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility in pugilist stance with my 20 Dex (level 3 right now btw) to do some pretty incredible damage unarmed. +9 to hit/1d3+1d6+12 to damage as of now. When I bronze knuckle and flurry strike I can drop pretty much any 3rd level challenge in one round. Its kinda crazy tbh.

[Elricaltovilla]

I recently started a 20 point buy game playing a Sanguinist Medic using the High Goblin race as every pathfinder race 15 points or lower was allowed. Currently, you can fast heal = wisdom mod in lieu of normal medic healing which circumvents the need for a blood pool early on. I generally start the combat off with a full round action fast healing 4(18 wis) for 10 rounds. After that I go HAM in melee using Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility in pugilist stance with my 20 Dex (level 3 right now btw) to do some pretty incredible damage unarmed. +9 to hit/1d3+1d6+12 to damage as of now. When I bronze knuckle and flurry strike I can drop pretty much any 3rd level challenge in one round. Its kinda crazy tbh.

That's more of a thing with Broken Blade than it is with Sanguinist specifically. Broken Blade is notably high on the damage spectrum, and Sanguinist is the DPR archetype for the medic, so the two combined is going to lead to some impressive numbers. Being able to 1 round an enemy with CR equal to your Level is good, but not typically game breaking. A CR 3 encounter is only supposed to use up a maximum of 25% of the party's resources according to pathfinder's encounter building rules.

[shawshank]

That's more of a thing with Broken Blade than it is with Sanguinist specifically. Broken Blade is notably high on the damage spectrum, and Sanguinist is the DPR archetype for the medic, so the two combined is going to lead to some impressive numbers. Being able to 1 round an enemy with CR equal to your Level is good, but not typically game breaking. A CR 3 encounter is only supposed to use up a maximum of 25% of the party's resources according to pathfinder's encounter building rules.

I guess that is one of the interesting things about the medic. You use zero resources basically every fight. Now, obviously at higher level this will decrease to some degree. But the ability to effectively fully heal your entire party by the end of every fight is super strong. Also starting at level 4+ I will be able to remove many conditions as well. I feel this class is very strong and enjoyable while fulfilling the healbot role which I would normally consider impossible.

[Elricaltovilla]

I guess that is one of the interesting things about the medic. You use zero resources basically every fight. Now, obviously at higher level this will decrease to some degree. But the ability to effectively fully heal your entire party by the end of every fight is super strong. Also starting at level 4+ I will be able to remove many conditions as well. I feel this class is very strong and enjoyable while fulfilling the healbot role which I would normally consider impossible.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Path of War, but the design of these classes with their focus on per encounter abilities means that daily resource issues don't come up nearly as often (or even at all) for Path of War classes. That can lead to some people being concerned about their ability to "go all day" but most classes quickly approach the point where they have enough resources to be able to push through a serious day's worth of adventuring without risk of burning out.

The goal of the class was to make a strong healer that could function in combat, so I'm glad that I've been able to bring that to you. :smallbiggrin:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I do like how the class boosts the Heal skill. It does seem to go back-and-forth on using a healer's kit, though. I think referring back and forth could get a bit labyrinthine, but seeing how different abilities provide different boosts, there's not much that could be done to alleviate that.

[Elricaltovilla]

I do like how the class boosts the Heal skill. It does seem to go back-and-forth on using a healer's kit, though. I think referring back and forth could get a bit labyrinthine, but seeing how different abilities provide different boosts, there's not much that could be done to alleviate that.

The heal skill itself is fairly inconsistent about use of a healer's kit. If you could be a bit more specific I can do something to clear up the wording.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

With the exception of treating deadly wounds, no uses of the heal skill need a healer's kit, they just provide a +2. I mean that Improved Treatment is a bit complex: 2nd level medic with a 16 wisdom and a +8 heal. Using the healer's kit (two uses, as per normal) to boost that to a +10 and taking 10 meets the DC for treating deadly wounds. Their patient, lets say a 2nd level character, heals as if they rested for a full day, which means 4 HP and 2 ability damage. It does get quite a bit better as they level up, though.

That is, however, if Improved Treatment actually replaces the use of 'treat deadly wounds', rather than supplement it. Normally, treating deadly wounds heals one HP/level, with no ability score healing. Also, takes an hour and cannot be performed on a creature more than once per 24 hours. Sorta lackluster until 6th level, where it heals at least 24 HP per target. It just feels very circuitous, having to go through at least sets of rules (Medic, Heal skill, natural healing) for one ability that is sorta lackluster.

[Elricaltovilla]

With the exception of treating deadly wounds, no uses of the heal skill need a healer's kit, they just provide a +2. I mean that Improved Treatment is a bit complex: 2nd level medic with a 16 wisdom and a +8 heal. Using the healer's kit (two uses, as per normal) to boost that to a +10 and taking 10 meets the DC for treating deadly wounds. Their patient, lets say a 2nd level character, heals as if they rested for a full day, which means 4 HP and 2 ability damage. It does get quite a bit better as they level up, though.

That is, however, if Improved Treatment actually replaces the use of 'treat deadly wounds', rather than supplement it. Normally, treating deadly wounds heals one HP/level, with no ability score healing. Also, takes an hour and cannot be performed on a creature more than once per 24 hours. Sorta lackluster until 6th level, where it heals at least 24 HP per target. It just feels very circuitous, having to go through at least sets of rules (Medic, Heal skill, natural healing) for one ability that is sorta lackluster.

Alright, I think I see what you mean. I'll see if there's anything I can do to clear things up.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Something I noticed is that you improve 'treat deadly wounds' by doing everything EXCEPT making it count as 'treat deadly wounds'. Also with the 'beat the DC by five to heal amount equal to wisdom' is lost. Not terrible, just... weird.

[meemaas]

A question that comes to mind after playing a Sanguinist so far. Is it possible to hit yourself to fill up your blood pool? I'm not sure if there are rules for hitting yourself, but it seems as likely as hitting someone with fast healing or a familiar with Regeneration.

[Elricaltovilla]

A question that comes to mind after playing a Sanguinist so far. Is it possible to hit yourself to fill up your blood pool? I'm not sure if there are rules for hitting yourself, but it seems as likely as hitting someone with fast healing or a familiar with Regeneration.

I can't think of a reason why not, though I imagine your party will probably recommend you see a therapist.

[phlidwsn]

It'd make a nice thematic touch for last-ditch healing of the party. Even perhaps skip the attack on yourself and let the sanguinist straight up drain his own HP if he's out of blood pool.

[Lunetec]

Thanks for your hard work on the class; I really enjoy ideas behind it! That said, it seems like the only archetype worth playing is the Sanguinist for 2 reasons: 1) It's like a base Medic with a side of unarmed powerhouse; 2) It gets three good features right out of the gate at level one.


Ambu-Lancer
Feels more like a joke class to me. Was that the intention?


Angel of Mercy
The angel of mercy strides across the battlefield...

They do? I guess that would be true IF you start at level 12 for the wings. Honestly, this archetype feels much too focused on mid-end game. It gets two "eh" passives from 1 to 6, and one decent ability at level 10. The wings are kinda nice... but the Angel of Mercy doesn't even get Fly as a class skill. Compare to the Ambu-Lancer who gets a mount AND Ride as a class skill from LEVEL ONE. Compare to the Sanguinist who gets THREE good class abilities at LEVEL ONE, and the rest of their kit by LEVEL FOUR. Fluff aside, why would I want to play an Angel of Mercy instead of a Sanguinist?


Witch Doctor
The witch doctor utilizes the tools of clerics and wizards...

Okay, but giving up Triage for UMD healing kinda defeats the purpose of the Medic (at least for me). Not to mention, they can't select any of the numerous Medic's Expertise choices. Like the Angel of Mercy, the Witch Doctor is shunted to mid-level to get their first decent ability (free empowered UMD healing at level six). Fluff aside, why would I want to be a Witch Doctor when I could be a basic Medic (who doesn't worry about buying or making UMD items)? Fluff aside, why would I want to be a Witch Doctor over a Sanguinist?


Sanguinist
Within blood lies power and some medics learn to tap into and manipulate that power...

This is a great, flavorful idea for an archetype. However, unlike the other archetypes... this guy is very, very, extremely, very front-loaded. They get all their capstone abilities at LEVEL ONE and LEVEL THREE. Level four is just icing on the cake. Barefisted Syringe alone gives you a treasure trove for basically nothing. Especially compared to the other archetypes...


By Lv. 3, Barefisted Syringe will give you...

Improved Unarmed Strike
Greater Unarmed Strike
Your choice of damage on Unarmed Strikes (Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing)
Initiator level for BaB.

Trade Off: One 1st level Medic's Expertise. Yep. That's it. What a deal!




This really needs to be broken up and spread out over more levels. The same could be said of Unnatural Vitality:


By Lv. 4, Unnatural Vitality will give you...

Immunity to all poisons and all diseases
The ability to absorb (i.e. cure) targets of any poison or disease by absorbing it on hit
The ability to reapply most poisons / diseases on hit (which synergizes greatly with Poisoner's Stance increased DC for poisons)

Trade Off: The Medic's Expertise gained at 4th level. Sign me up.




When you realize that the Medic gets 2 Medic's Expertises at 1st level, 1 Expertise at 2nd level, and 1 Expertise every even level thereafter... The trade off of these two abilities is laughable. They are both extremely powerful, and they only set you back one Expertise each (two total). This is not including Pain's Gain, which gives the Sangunist +attack boons... the ability to do magic damage on unarmed strikes with Blood Transfusion... or the scaling damage bonus from Blood Infusion. Not to mention, their Blood Reserve lasts 24 hours, and can store an unlimited number of HP points.

[MilleniaAntares]

Just because the class has a jokey name and concept doesn't mean it can't be as good as any other class. Besides, D&D used to have a lot of humor back in 1st and 2nd editions. How else would you explain the existence of the fluumph?

Besides, even the dour, studious wizard (http://i.imgur.com/Xuw4CDd.jpg) can be turned into a joke with the right refluffing.

[Forrestfire]

I'm not Elric, but I wanted to comment on the Sanguinist, since you're making a lot of assertions about the archetype that outright aren't true.


Thanks for your hard work on the class; I really enjoy ideas behind it! That said, it seems like the only archetype worth playing is the Sanguinist for 2 reasons: 1) It's like a base Medic with a side of unarmed powerhouse; 2) It gets three good features right out of the gate at level one.

Sanguinist
Within blood lies power and some medics learn to tap into and manipulate that power...

This is a great, flavorful idea for an archetype. However, unlike the other archetypes... this guy is very, very, extremely, very front-loaded. They get all their capstone abilities at LEVEL ONE and LEVEL THREE. Level four is just icing on the cake. Barefisted Syringe alone gives you a treasure trove for basically nothing. Especially compared to the other archetypes...


By Lv. 3, Barefisted Syringe will give you...

Improved Unarmed Strike
Greater Unarmed Strike
Your choice of damage on Unarmed Strikes (Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing)
Initiator level for BaB.

Trade Off: One 1st level Medic's Expertise. Yep. That's it. What a deal!




This really needs to be broken up and spread out over more levels. The same could be said of Unnatural Vitality:


By Lv. 4, Unnatural Vitality will give you...

Immunity to all poisons and all diseases
The ability to absorb (i.e. cure) targets of any poison or disease by absorbing it on hit
The ability to reapply most poisons / diseases on hit (which synergizes greatly with Poisoner's Stance increased DC for poisons)

Trade Off: The Medic's Expertise gained at 4th level. Sign me up.




When you realize that the Medic gets 2 Medic's Expertises at 1st level, 1 Expertise at 2nd level, and 1 Expertise every even level thereafter... The trade off of these two abilities is laughable. They are both extremely powerful, and they only set you back one Expertise each (two total). This is not including Pain's Gain, which gives the Sangunist +attack boons... the ability to do magic damage on unarmed strikes with Blood Transfusion... or the scaling damage bonus from Blood Infusion. Not to mention, their Blood Reserve lasts 24 hours, and can store an unlimited number of HP points.

The big thing is: an archetype's abilities are not stand-alone. The abilities that are given up for other abilities are not necessarily where the power was actually traded off, especially when it comes to fighting style-changers. Now, the smaller things.

The Sanguinist gives you the following:

Barefisted Syringe: The ability to punch... Badly; Improved Unarmed Strike gives you a d3 damage die at level 1, making you significantly behind even someone using a longsword. Greater Unarmed Strike gives you a slightly larger but still incredibly small damage die. You should also reread the ability. You do not use your initiator level for base attack bonus in general; you only use it to determine your Greater Unarmed Strike damage. That is: at level 3 you've got a worse dagger, at level 7 a worse shortsword, at level 11 a worse longsword, and at level 15 a d10. Decent, I guess, but not great.

This trades away one of your Medic's Expertises, which is honestly a bad trade. Blood transfusion procs on natural attacks, which are relatively easy to get (especially in DSP materials) and from the getgo significantly better than unarmed strikes. Your unarmed strikes are outright worse than comparable weapons at any given level, cost you twice as much to enchant (and can become half as powerful), and even with the damage booster, are still doing worse damage than if you just grabbed a big sword and hit them.

Why is this lopsided again?

Unnatural Vitality: Immunity to disease is pretty negligible. It rarely comes up in most games, and those that do you can just use remove disease or even a Heal check to handle it. Immunity to poison is far more game-dependent, and is more worthwhile at low levels, but even then... It's not a particularly amazing defense. What's much better is the ability to use poisons and diseases against people... Except that the best poisons and diseases can't be used. You can, through time, money, or effort, prepare an extra debuff to use, and while that's good, it's not as lopsided as you're making it out to be.

Why? Because the Sanguinist loses a whole lot everywhere else. Take a look at Blood Reserve. Unless they've damaged something, a Sanguinist cannot heal. Sure, you can charge up between fights if you want to cart around small animals to drain, but even then, you've got a hard cap of 10 hit points per level in your pool. The base medic starts out being able to heal more than that per fight, from the beginning of a fight. They end up healing significantly more per encounter as well. You made a note about the Sanguinist being able to store hit points all day, but the normal Medic's healing is per-encounter. They already never run out. The Sanguinist can run out, fairly easily (probably after 1-2 triages if they have to use them at full blast, even).

EDIT: I'm not sure where I got that impression when posting last night. Needing to charge up is still a limit but now I'm just confused. My bad.

Sanguinists get some damage boosts (to unarmed strikes and natural weapons, which start out below par, even with the free feats) and their debuffing ability, but honestly? They're kinda _really bad_ at healing, compared to the normal medic. That's where the tradeoff comes from. They're quite good (though not top-tier) at offensive stuff, and I'd expect they'd do particularly well using Fool's Errand for synergy with their unarmed strikes, but I'd take another look at the archetype to see what they really trade out.

Archetype abilities are not taken in a vacuum. Abilities can't be measured based on their 1:1 trades, especially when it comes to more invasive archetypes. Heck, take a look at the archetypes in Path of War: Expanded. Formatting-wise, they trade out one or more abilities for their stances, then get the maneuvers for "free" if you look only at direct trades, along with various other abilities in some cases.

[Elricaltovilla]

Thanks for your hard work on the class; I really enjoy ideas behind it! That said, it seems like the only archetype worth playing is the Sanguinist for 2 reasons: 1) It's like a base Medic with a side of unarmed powerhouse; 2) It gets three good features right out of the gate at level one.

You're welcome. I'm sorry you feel that the Sanguinist is the only archetype worth playing, I know that Forrestfire was kind enough to touch on that a bit while I was asleep, but allow me to provide a more thorough



Ambu-Lancer
Feels more like a joke class to me. Was that the intention?

Yes, actually it was (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483365-Dreamscarred-Press-April-Augmented-Free-Release!). Well, to be more accurate it's a perfectly functional mounted archetype that has some slight silliness due to its origins. Luckily for all the super serious players out there, no one is actually required to refer to themselves as an Ambu-lancer in game.

As for what it brings to the medic? You actually answered that yourself when talking about the angel of mercy archetype. An animal companion, specifically a mount, is a powerful force multiplier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spirited-charge-combat---final), even if all you care about is basically damage. But that's not what medic does, and it's not what ambu-lancer does (at least not any better than any other mounted class or archetype). An extra body on the field is a useful screening tool, an extra set of actions, and an increase in mobility for a class that needs to move in order to use its class features.

The archetype comes with a silly name, but you would be remiss to discount it on that basis alone.


Angel of Mercy
The angel of mercy strides across the battlefield...

They do? I guess that would be true IF you start at level 12 for the wings. Honestly, this archetype feels much too focused on mid-end game. It gets two "eh" passives from 1 to 6, and one decent ability at level 10. The wings are kinda nice... but the Angel of Mercy doesn't even get Fly as a class skill. Compare to the Ambu-Lancer who gets a mount AND Ride as a class skill from LEVEL ONE. Compare to the Sanguinist who gets THREE good class abilities at LEVEL ONE, and the rest of their kit by LEVEL FOUR. Fluff aside, why would I want to play an Angel of Mercy instead of a Sanguinist?

Stride (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/stride): 1. to walk with long steps, as with vigor, haste, impatience, or arrogance.

Now that that's out of the way, a brief discussion on what archetypes are for, or rather not for:

Archetypes are not about being better than the base class. They are intended to be balanced alternatives, that doesn't always work to one direction or the other, but that's a given with a rules set as complicated as Pathfinder's.

Now then, is the angel of mercy stronger than the base medic? No, probably not. But as I said above, that's a good thing. They are slightly more durable, they passively make their party slightly more durable and better able to resist mind affecting effects, and they have native access to Silver Crane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/silver-crane-maneuvers). That might not seem like such a big deal, given the freedom to switch around disciplines that's been implemented, but trust me it's a load off your back when you're trying to fit together a specific build.

So, assuming the base medic doesn't get silver crane (because it doesn't), the additional healing and support that discipline provides is a boon to their ability to heal. A big enough boon that I can almost guaranteed that most optimizers will recommend swapping a discipline for silver crane anyway and I knew that going into the class.

To address the fly skill specifically: A class skill is a basic +3 bonus to the skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills#TOC-Class-Skills). Good maneuverability on flight grants a +4 bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly) natively.

EDIT: Looked up the fly skill rules again. Any creature with a fly speed gains fly as a class skill, and you can't put ranks in fly unless you have a fly speed.

And I'll let you in on a little secret, the design purpose of the wings class feature? It's a cheat at dual stances. If you have wings from angel of mercy up, you don't need to stay in Silver Crane's Stance of the Crane Knight at later levels. You have the freedom to switch to a different stance that better suits your character's needs for the given combat. It's not directly as good as Dual Stances, because that's a 20th level class ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Dual-Stance-Ex-), but the end result is similar.


Witch Doctor
The witch doctor utilizes the tools of clerics and wizards...

Okay, but giving up Triage for UMD healing kinda defeats the purpose of the Medic (at least for me). Not to mention, they can't select any of the numerous Medic's Expertise choices. Like the Angel of Mercy, the Witch Doctor is shunted to mid-level to get their first decent ability (free empowered UMD healing at level six). Fluff aside, why would I want to be a Witch Doctor when I could be a basic Medic (who doesn't worry about buying or making UMD items)? Fluff aside, why would I want to be a Witch Doctor over a Sanguinist?

The Witch doctor actually gains a plethora of useful abilities at low levels. From the get go, she uses her Initiation Modifier (Wis) instead of the normal ability score modifier for UMD and Spellcraft. That consolidates her ability score needs and gives her a leg up on other UMDers, as well as (believe it or not) many people interested in using Cursed Razor or Elemental Flux.

The witch doctor qualifies for any crafting feat using her initiator level instead of her caster level. That means that she can pick up Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-magic-arms-and-armor-item-creation---final) and Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-wondrous-item-item-creation---final), and put her skills to use crafting the party's equipment. Given that crafted equipment comes in at half-price, is customized to exactly your needs and can be made using Spellcraft (something we've established that the witch doctor is very good at), a class capable of being a dedicated crafter is a huge boon to a party, since it effectively doubles their wealth.

The next thing that you need to recognize is the witch doctor's "spell list" Thaumaturgic Medicine. Not only does it include all healing descriptor spells, but a long list of other useful spells right from level one. The witch doctor doesn't have to roll to cast these spells, she can craft anything that uses them off that list, and she gets better and better at using them. Most of the spells are useful long duration buffs, and can do things that either replicate existing medic's expertise perfectly or do stuff that existing expertise flat out can't replicate. The witch doctor gets her expertise back and then some, they just come on parchment.

The other thing to remember is that medic's triage is an encounter ability. It can only be used during an encounter. That means that outside of combat (usually) the medic is relegated to making heal checks. They're good at making heal checks, but triage isn't there, and neither are most expertise. The witch doctor doesn't have that problem, her wands and scrolls are always present, whether in or out of combat.


Sanguinist
Within blood lies power and some medics learn to tap into and manipulate that power...

This is a great, flavorful idea for an archetype. However, unlike the other archetypes... this guy is very, very, extremely, very front-loaded. They get all their capstone abilities at LEVEL ONE and LEVEL THREE. Level four is just icing on the cake. Barefisted Syringe alone gives you a treasure trove for basically nothing. Especially compared to the other archetypes...


By Lv. 3, Barefisted Syringe will give you...

Improved Unarmed Strike
Greater Unarmed Strike
Your choice of damage on Unarmed Strikes (Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing)
Initiator level for BaB.

Trade Off: One 1st level Medic's Expertise. Yep. That's it. What a deal!




This really needs to be broken up and spread out over more levels. The same could be said of Unnatural Vitality:


By Lv. 4, Unnatural Vitality will give you...

Immunity to all poisons and all diseases
The ability to absorb (i.e. cure) targets of any poison or disease by absorbing it on hit
The ability to reapply most poisons / diseases on hit (which synergizes greatly with Poisoner's Stance increased DC for poisons)

Trade Off: The Medic's Expertise gained at 4th level. Sign me up.




When you realize that the Medic gets 2 Medic's Expertises at 1st level, 1 Expertise at 2nd level, and 1 Expertise every even level thereafter... The trade off of these two abilities is laughable. They are both extremely powerful, and they only set you back one Expertise each (two total). This is not including Pain's Gain, which gives the Sangunist +attack boons... the ability to do magic damage on unarmed strikes with Blood Transfusion... or the scaling damage bonus from Blood Infusion. Not to mention, their Blood Reserve lasts 24 hours, and can store an unlimited number of HP points.

Forrestfire already covered much of this, but I feel it necessary to weigh in as well. Most of what you see as game changingly powerful abilities are actually there entirely to make unarmed strikes even moderately viable.

Barefisted Syringe is necessary because otherwise you get greatsworded in the face for daring to punch someone. Initiator level for BAB only modifies the progression of Greater Unarmed Strike:



At 3rd level, she gains Greater Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites, and uses her medic initiator level in place of her base attack bonus for determining the damage of her unarmed strike


because Greater Unarmed Strike increases based on your BAB (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Greater-Unarmed-Strike-Combat-). Meaning that otherwise, you'd be left with some pretty piss poor punches (it's still not great, but at least you're on track).

Blood Transfusion's extra damage ranges from +4 to approximately +13 over the course of leveling. That puts it about on par with the amazing DPR buff of... sneak attack. The extra damage is the Sanguinist's only way to fill her blood pool, without which she can't fulfill the primary fuction of a medic: healing people.

Pain's Gain wasn't addressed by Forrestfire, I think because you buried it in your closing paragraph, but you trade a bonus to Reflex and Will saves for a bonus to attack and damage rolls with subpar weapons. I know the medic is a WIS class with a good Will Save, but it's also the class you probably least want failing a dominate person, outside a wizard. That is a trade that generally favors the base medic.

Unnatural Vitality brings us back to the "catch up to the guy with the greatsword" game. Yes, you're immune to poisons and diseases. Yes you can cure them with but a touch. Yes, you can even stick them to the next guy you get handsy with... if you have any. I'm getting anecdotal here, but think about how often you actually encounter an enemy using poisons or diseases. Not terribly frequently, I presume.

Sure you could go off and buy yourself some deadly nightshade, but in order to use it via Unnatural Vitality, it has to already be afflicting someone else. At that point, you might as well just leave it in your enemy and then try and pick it up before the duration runs out or he dies. It's convoluted and messy. And given the wide variety of creatures that are immune to poisons and/or diseases or otherwise have ways to deal with them, it's a difficult trick to pull off.

The Sanguinist is a DPR archetype. I've said this before in this thread I'm sure. It trades a lot of healing viability in order to put out better damage numbers. But it's coming off a class chassis that is arguably the worst PoW class in terms of damage output. It has a lot to make up for in order to catch up, and it gives up a lot in order to do so.

You concluded most of your paragraphs with "Why would I play X over base medic or sanguinist?" I can't really answer that for you. Each person has different reasons for why they play whatever class or archetype they choose to play. For you, sanguinist might be the best archetype out there and you've got no reason to look elsewhere. That's fine. But the other medic archetypes and the base medic are all capable healers, even fantastic ones, each with slightly different takes on what it means to be a healer. What looks poor at first blush is often a result of narrow focus. The archetypes are supposed to be judged as a whole, including what they keep from the base class. 1:1 trades are honestly pretty rare in my archetype design, stuff gets sneaked around and tweaked around in order to make it fit when and where I want it to go, and where it needs to be in order to match with comparable classes and abilities or the design expectations of the game. If I was relegated to only making obvious, 1:1 trades, I'd probably never write another archetype again.

Still, thank you for the support and the review. I'm glad you enjoy the base class and the sanguinist.

[EldritchWeaver]

Going through the current incarnation of text, these are the typos I noticed:


Those Medics who do believe in gods tend to favor gods of knowledge, medicine or community.
Only lower letters.


Cura te ipsum +2, Triage 5/encounter

Only lower letters.


Cura te ipsum +5, Triage 9/encounter

Only lower letters.


The target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 sanguinist levels + Initiation Modifier) or be subject to the disease/poison’s effects as if they had failed their save against the save DC of the poison or disease.

Only lower letters.


2- abeyance, aid, bear’s endurance, blood of the martyr, bull’s strength, calm emotions, cat’s grace, death knell, delay pain, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, ironskin, owl’s wisdom, path of glory, protection from chaos (communal), protection from evil (communal), protection from good (communal), protection from law (communal), protection from outsiders, resist energy, shield other, status

Misses two commas and a space before "cat's grace".


3- archon’s aura, dispel magic, protection from energy, remove curse, resist energy (communal), sacred bond, water breathing

Misses a comma.


Starting at 6th level, whenever the witch doctor casts a spell from her list of Thaumaturgic Medicine spells through a wand, scroll or other spell completion item, she treats the caster level of the spell as being equal to her initiator level, regardless of the spell’s actual caster level.

Only lower letters.


Instead of choosing an additional Skill Point or Hit Point at each level, medics of certain races may choose to take their racial favored class bonus.

Only lower letters. Also, consider the verbiage of Paizo: "Characters who take a level in a favored class have the option of gaining 1 additional skill rank or an additional hit point." So stating skill point is inconsistent.


Stalwart guardians, dwarf Medics prefer to fix problems before they arrive. Gain +1/6 of a use of guardian of life per day.

Only lower letters.


Half-giant medics are quick to react to any danger to their friends or allies, often rushing headlong into danger to protect their companions. Gain +1/4 dodge bonus to AC when moving through threatened squares while using Triage.

Only lower letters.


The following are new feats intended to allow Medics and other characters better serve their roles as battlefield healers.

Only lower letters.


Prerequisites: Guardian of life class feature, 9th level initiator.

Misses a period.


You have been trained to identify and patch up wounds in preparation for more serious treatment.

Misses a period.


Prerequisites: Heal 5 ranks.

Misses a period.


Prerequisites: Martial Power, two Golden Lion maneuvers known, two Iron Tortoise maneuvers known.

Misses a period.


Prerequisites: Heal 7 ranks.

Misses a period.

There are a number of places, where two spaces are used instead of one.

In addition, I have a number of question regarding the text itself:


A medic can use this ability three times per encounter at 1st level, plus one additional time per encounter for every three levels thereafter.

So when does the medic get the first increase? 3rd or 4th level?


Each ally can only benefit from this healing once per use of the ability.

Does this refer only to the full-round action or to the once per encounter restriction?


Agile Runner*: The medic may automatically negate one attack of opportunity made against her during her movement as part of using her triage ability.

The swift action use of triage does not provoke AoOs by virtue being a swift action. The full-round action use states explicitly that it doesn't provoke AoOs. So what is the intended use for this option?


Combat Training: The medic gains a bonus combat feat for which she qualifies. The medic may select this expertise one additional time at 8th level and 16th level. The medic must be at least 4th level to select this ability.

This is quite restrictive in when you have to select this expertise. If you don't select at the given levels, you don't have any chance later. Why not saying instead: "The medic may select this medic's expertise up to three times. The first time the medic needs to be at least 4th level, second time 8th level, and third time at least 16th level."


Invigorating Touch*: Instead of healing the normal amount of hit points, the target of the medic’s triage ability gains fast healing equal to the medic’s initiation modifier for 1 minute.

This sounds like as if the normal triage heal option no longer available.

Guardian of Life does not mention in the text, that this ability is only usable once per day at the time you receive this ability. Also, mentioning that the ability may only be used once per round before you mention that the ability can be used twice or thrice a day creates only confusion.


The blood reserve can only store hit points for up to 24 hours, but it does not have a maximum number of hit points it can store.
Didn't someone state in the thread that there is a hard cap of maximum hit points, the sanguinist can store? If so then this contradicts this line.

Why does Magical Assistance not offer a full-round action use as triage?

Bonus question:

Is it possible to create magic items which can confer a medic's expertise you don't have?

[Elricaltovilla]

I think I've corrected the grammar errors you mentioned, as well as a couple more. Thank you.



Does this refer only to the full-round action or to the once per encounter restriction?

It refers to the full-round action. Wording has been clarified.



The swift action use of triage does not provoke AoOs by virtue being a swift action. The full-round action use states explicitly that it doesn't provoke AoOs. So what is the intended use for this option?

Not according to my reading of the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity)

Specifically:

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Swift action movement is not called out as a specific exception in this ruling, so using triage as a swift action and moving out of an enemy's threatened area would still provoke attacks of opportunity. If you have a FAQ or something that refutes this, please share it so I can take appropriate action to fix the issue.



This sounds like as if the normal triage heal option no longer available.

Yes. When you use invigorating touch, you give the target fast healing instead of healing the normal amount of hit points.



Guardian of Life does not mention in the text, that this ability is only usable once per day at the time you receive this ability. Also, mentioning that the ability may only be used once per round before you mention that the ability can be used twice or thrice a day creates only confusion.

Yes it does.


Guardian of Life (Su): The medic’s dedication to the health and wellbeing of her allies is translated into an aggressive defense of their lives. Starting at 6th level, once per day the medic can initiate a counter as a free action (even if it is not her turn) in defense of her ally. This counter can only be used to protect an ally within 30 feet of the medic. The ally is treated as if they had initiated the counter in response to the attack, but uses any relevant modifiers (initation modifier, base attack bonus, skill bonus, etc.) from the medic instead of the ally. She may only use this ability once per round. The medic can use this ability one additional time per day at 12th and 18th level.


Bolded to highlight.



Didn't someone state in the thread that there is a hard cap of maximum hit points, the sanguinist can store? If so then this contradicts this line.

It's been discussed in thread before, but never implemented.



Why does Magical Assistance not offer a full-round action use as triage?

I'll have to address fixing this later. Thank you for the catch.



Bonus question:

Is it possible to create magic items which can confer a medic's expertise you don't have?

These will require additional testing. It's a possibility though.

[EldritchWeaver]

Not according to my reading of the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity)

Specifically:

Swift action movement is not called out as a specific exception in this ruling, so using triage as a swift action and moving out of an enemy's threatened area would still provoke attacks of opportunity. If you have a FAQ or something that refutes this, please share it so I can take appropriate action to fix the issue.

I can see where you come from, but the problem is that there is no swift action movement - at least I can't find any. There's the full-round action movements, the move action movements, the free action movements and the no-action movement. So it seems there is no precedent by Paizo at least. Not sure, where I got "swift = no AoO" from, maybe because of the Quicken Spell feat. Looking at the table, one can see that even for the same type of action an AoO can or isn't provoked, although no entry provokes for swift and faster actions. All in all, these indicate that it isn't necessarily given that a swift action movement provokes. That means you can define no AoO for your class feature, if you think that this is for the best. (Having a specific rule overwriting a limitation of a general rule is 99% of the game, so you'd be in good company.)


Yes. When you use invigorating touch, you give the target fast healing instead of healing the normal amount of hit points.

If that is an option which can be used instead of the normal triage then the wording contradicts this intention. Or more explicitly: There is no "may" in the rule, so you have always to use Fast Healing.

[ATalsen]

If that is an option which can be used instead of the normal triage then the wording contradicts this intention. Or more explicitly: There is no "may" in the rule, so you have always to use Fast Healing.


The ability to and the 'optional' wording for applying Medic’s Expertise to Triage is listed under the Triage ability not the Medic’s Expertise ability. So check that section.

I understand why its there, since it affects Triage, but I think a good argument *could* be made for moving that wording to under Medic’s Expertise.

[Mehangel]

Minor nit-pick, but I personally think it would be more appropriate if the sentence "Each medic begins play with a free healer’s kit in addition to her normal equipment" located in the Armor and Weapon proficiency section, were to be instead be located in the Starting Equipment section. As it is right now, I nearly missed it.

[calyst]

So after my weekly game my DM brought up a concern about the ability to heal ability damage effectively for free in such a short period of time via Revitalizing Touch expertise being superior to lesser restoration or anything a cleric could do at our current level (4th). Just providing some actual playtest data make of it what you will.

[Elricaltovilla]

So after my weekly game my DM brought up a concern about the ability to heal ability damage effectively for free in such a short period of time via Revitalizing Touch expertise being superior to lesser restoration or anything a cleric could do at our current level (4th). Just providing some actual playtest data make of it what you will.

Revitalizing Touch isn't being compared solely to lesser restoration. It has to be comparable to the entire restoration line, because revitalizing touch is the only means by which a medic can restore ability score damage outside of long term care.

[khadgar567]

Revitalizing Touch isn't being compared solely to lesser restoration. It has to be comparable to the entire restoration line, because revitalizing touch is the only means by which a medic can restore ability score damage outside of long term care.
is anyone getting warlock 10 medic 2, hellfire warlock 3 idea instead of naberious you use revitalizing touch to get rid of con damage

[Doc_Maynot]

That sounds like a weird, but interesting 3.P game.

[Elricaltovilla]

That's outside the realm I can comfortably balance for as a developer. If it works for you, great! But I have to stick to pathfinder only or I'll drive myself nuts with option paralysis.

[khadgar567]

That's outside the realm I can comfortably balance for as a developer. If it works for you, great! But I have to stick to pathfinder only or I'll drive myself nuts with option paralysis.
İ mean kineticts also can use sanguinist medic to control burn damage just use kinetict fist to deal damage and get health buffer filled

[Elricaltovilla]

İ mean kineticts also can use sanguinist medic to control burn damage just use kinetict fist to deal damage and get health buffer filled

Yeah, and that's fine. I'm not saying that Warlock/Medic/Hellfire Warlock is a problem, I'm just making it clear that I don't design with 3.P in mind and making it clear why.

I can make suggestions and stuff, but if I were to actually try and balance around both 3.5 and PF I'd never be able to get anything done. The systems have diverged far too much.

[Doc_Maynot]

İ mean kineticts also can use sanguinist medic to control burn damage just use kinetict fist to deal damage and get health buffer filled


"This damage can't be healed by any means other than getting a full night's rest, which removes all burn and associated nonlethal damage." "Nonlethal damage from burn can't be reduced or redirected,"

Not sure how you can control burn damage, but yeah, the ability to fill your reserve in like one punch is pretty cool.

[khadgar567]

Not sure how you can control burn damage, but yeah, the ability to fill your reserve in like one punch is pretty cool.
then use the reserve to keep your self alive by siphoning from reserve and revitalizing touch may remove burn aka unavoidable con damage

[Doc_Maynot]

Except, Kineticist's Burn isn't Con damage it's "1 point of nonlethal damage per character level." Which as I quoted from the feature cannot be healed or mitigated except by taking full night's rest.

[EldritchWeaver]

Is it possible to change the initiation modifier to a different attribute for a medic? I've been looking for a way but nothing came up.

[Elricaltovilla]

Is it possible to change the initiation modifier to a different attribute for a medic? I've been looking for a way but nothing came up.

No there is not. Currently, all medics are WIS based.

[Doc_Maynot]

I mean, one could take a level of the Dashing Hero PrC to become Cha Based

[Elricaltovilla]

Added three new feats to the medic document. Dancing Shield Step, Gungnir Technique and Imposing Shield. Let me know what you think.

[Nyaa]

Added three new feats to the medic document. Dancing Shield Step, Gungnir Technique and Imposing Shield. Let me know what you think.

The only thing I see so far is that zweihander sentinel bushi can use Dancing Shield Step with reach weapons.

[Elricaltovilla]

The only thing I see so far is that zweihander sentinel bushi can use Dancing Shield Step with reach weapons.

Do you see that as a problem or no? To me it doesn't seem that big of a deal.

[MilleniaAntares]

Added three new feats to the medic document. Dancing Shield Step, Gungnir Technique and Imposing Shield. Let me know what you think.
I like them, though I do not see why Imposing Shield shouldn't stack with similar attack penalties.

[Elricaltovilla]

I like them, though I do not see why Imposing Shield shouldn't stack with similar attack penalties.

Because you can hit upwards of -16 to attack rolls just with Iron Tortoise, Armiger's Mark and Powerful Mark.

[neversterling]

Do you see that as a problem or no? To me it doesn't seem that big of a deal.

It could counter a charge without spending a counter, and said bushi zweihander could be taking 2+ 5 foot steps/round on their off-turn whenever a single person wants to attack them. Kind of a Outslug Sprint thing going on, where only the zweihander is getting to full-attack. I like it.

[Elricaltovilla]

It could counter a charge without spending a counter, and said bushi zweihander could be taking 2+ 5 foot steps/round on their off-turn whenever a single person wants to attack them. Kind of a Outslug Sprint thing going on, where only the zweihander is getting to full-attack. I like it.

OK, I see what you mean. But it's not the only instance of something like that. It's kind of Mithral Current's whole bag to be able to move around like that.

[EldritchWeaver]

No there is not. Currently, all medics are WIS based.

Are there any plans to change that? I could see an Int based one fitting the class.


I mean, one could take a level of the Dashing Hero PrC to become Cha Based

I've looked for that one, but I can't find it. Is that a PoW one?

[Doc_Maynot]

Are there any plans to change that? I could see an Int based one fitting the class.



I've looked for that one, but I can't find it. Is that a PoW one?

Yes, it's hidden away in April Augmented. Really neat little PrC, great for War Soul Soulknives as it also progresses Mind Blade, but also for making Initiators Cha based.

[Elricaltovilla]

Are there any plans to change that? I could see an Int based one fitting the class.


I don't have any plans to do a stat switching archetype at this time. As for INT, this class is not "I'm a doctor." The kind of people who become medics aren't the kind of people that spend years studying away at universities. There was a job that needed doing and they stepped up (or were forced to step up) and filled that role. You'll see this in the class design, where clerics, alchemists, bards, etc. have multiple ways (spells) of healing injuries or treating conditions, medics have one. The medic learned one way of healing hit points, one way of treating fatigue/shaken/sickened/etc., one way of restoring ability score damage and then became very good at that one way of doing things and it's all tied up in that one thing of triage. Medics learned their abilities though hands on means and practice, not books.

[MilleniaAntares]

Originally posted 6/21/16, deleted to prevent double post.

I like Gungnir Technique, but perhaps it could stand to be changed to "Piercing Thunder discipline weapons" instead? THat way people can pay to have it expanded.


Because you can hit upwards of -16 to attack rolls just with Iron Tortoise, Armiger's Mark and Powerful Mark.
I'd look into whether having such a large penalty to attacks matters much given the investment of resources (2 feats) and duration matters all that much... I have an anecdote at the end of the post, for whatever it's worth.

If you don't want the feat to stack up that much, I'd recommend treating it as something for the non-warder tanks by simply having it specifically not stack with Armiger's Mark. This will allow the appropriately traditioned/traited initiator soul aegii, myrmidon fighters, knight disciple paladins, monks of the silver fist, and vanguard commander warlords a semi-marking ability to complement whatever they can get from Iron Tortoise and Eternal Guardian. Plus all non-Armiger's Mark means of marking are very limited in turn (like Eternal Guardian Oath or the Aggravated Wounds maneuver).

Well, that, or have it stack with itself.

Well, here's the anecdote: in a now-completed campaign before the release of PoW:E, my gestalt hussar warder/omen rider harbinger had Armiger's Mark and Dark Allure on four archers, for a total of -12 to attack anyone else. Because she was in the air at the time, they decided to full attack (+ Rapid Shot) the horse. They rolled like 4 or 5 natural 20s and confirmed like 3 of them against the horse. Naturally, the horse exploded into shadows and my character and her passenger fell to the ground.

So even the greatest of penalties (and counters) don't mean crap against natural 20s.

----
Posted 6/28/16:

Now I'm going to try to make an angel of mercy medic for a quick game while one of the players of my current game goes overseas! She'll be starting at level 5 and may end at level 9, tops. I'll see if I can keep this thread updated with observations about the mechanical portions. Sadly she'll be an archer, so most of the healing silver crane maneuvers will not be used by her,

Looking over the document... Strangely, there doesn't seem to be an Extra Expertise feat. Is this intentional?

Also, the angel of mercy's angelic fortitude would be neat if it was an aura that also affected allies. It's not like the ability scales beyond adding new resistance at level 8, so it shouldn't step on, say, the witch doctor's toes too hard.

[EldritchWeaver]

Found a typo: "...to avoid an oncoming abmu-lance."

[EldritchWeaver]

I've had a discussion with player using Medic, if gestalting with a Life Oracle would make sense. He agreed that the Medic lacks a way to deal effectively with status effects, which means that there is still a gap in functionality. Not sure how to make that more flexible. Provide magic item with medic expertises? Allow to choose one expertise freely each encounter/day?

[Elricaltovilla]

I've had a discussion with player using Medic, if gestalting with a Life Oracle would make sense. He agreed that the Medic lacks a way to deal effectively with status effects, which means that there is still a gap in functionality. Not sure how to make that more flexible. Provide magic item with medic expertises? Allow to choose one expertise freely each encounter/day?

Which status effects is he having difficulty dealing with? Outside of Ability Drain and petrification, a medic with the right expertise should be comparable to equal level oracles/clerics in terms of status healing.

[Mehangel]

Which status effects is he having difficulty dealing with? Outside of Ability Drain and petrification, a medic with the right expertise should be comparable to equal level oracles/clerics in terms of status healing.

I am the other player that EldritchWeaver had a discussion with. In the conversation, I was under the assumption that the Life Oracle was one using the Spheres of Power magic system. Having said that, those who invest thoroughly in the Life sphere may remove conditions such as ability damage, disease, poison, etc as low as level 1.

So while I agree that medics are far less adequate at removing status effects than ANY spherecaster (such as a Sphere Oracle) invested in the Life sphere, I do not think that is fair to say that I want the medic to remove these conditions or status effects at the same level that someone with the Life sphere can. Doing so will only hurt those with the Life sphere (as it will become pointless for them to invest in the Life sphere).

As it stands right now, I am perfectly fine with the levels at which a medical expertise may be learned to remove conditions (such as poison and disease).

[Elricaltovilla]

I am the other player that EldritchWeaver had a discussion with. In the conversation, I was under the assumption that the Life Oracle was one using the Spheres of Power magic system. Having said that, those who invest thoroughly in the Life sphere may remove conditions such as ability damage, disease, poison, etc as low as level 1.

So while I agree that medics are far less adequate at removing status effects than ANY spherecaster (such as a Sphere Oracle) invested in the Life sphere, I do not think that is fair to say that I want the medic to remove these conditions or status effects at the same level that someone with the Life sphere can. Doing so will only hurt those with the Life sphere (as it will become pointless for them to invest in the Life sphere).

As it stands right now, I am perfectly fine with the levels at which a medical expertise may be learned to remove conditions (such as poison and disease).

Yeah, I don't/can't scale against other 3rd party materials. There's simply too much of it for me to keep track of, and the balance across systems is too varied for that level of detail.

The medic is mostly scaled against the 1st party Cleric/Oracle and the levels at which they unlock the necessary spells to treat those conditions.

[EldritchWeaver]

I am the other player that EldritchWeaver had a discussion with. In the conversation, I was under the assumption that the Life Oracle was one using the Spheres of Power magic system. Having said that, those who invest thoroughly in the Life sphere may remove conditions such as ability damage, disease, poison, etc as low as level 1.

So while I agree that medics are far less adequate at removing status effects than ANY spherecaster (such as a Sphere Oracle) invested in the Life sphere, I do not think that is fair to say that I want the medic to remove these conditions or status effects at the same level that someone with the Life sphere can. Doing so will only hurt those with the Life sphere (as it will become pointless for them to invest in the Life sphere).

As it stands right now, I am perfectly fine with the levels at which a medical expertise may be learned to remove conditions (such as poison and disease).

Oh, I did forget to state in this thread that particular precondition. And the discussion didn't touch that this was an effect of the Life sphere in particular, so I assumed it to be a general problem. My bad.:smalleek:

At least this misunderstanding allowed me to find another typo: "Miracle surgeon" isn't capitalized for "surgeon".

[Elricaltovilla]

Found a typo: "...to avoid an oncoming abmu-lance."

#that'sthejoke

[Mehangel]

#that'sthejoke

I believe EldritchWeaver is saying that it should be Ambu-Lance not Abmu-Lance.

[Elricaltovilla]

I believe EldritchWeaver is saying that it should be Ambu-Lance not Abmu-Lance.

Ah, I see it now.

[EldritchWeaver]

Ah, I see it now.

Alternatively, you could rename the rest to Abmu-Lancers.:smalltongue:

[Elricaltovilla]

Alternatively, you could rename the rest to Abmu-Lancers.:smalltongue:

Don't tempt me.

[Elricaltovilla]

Some new items have been added to the medic document. They're located at the end of the doc, feel free to take a look.

[Doc_Maynot]

How would the Charm of Recovery interact with Improved Treatment? Namely...


Improved Treatment (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when the medic treats deadly wounds, the creature she treats recovers hit points and ability score damage as if it had rested for a full day and she no longer needs a healer’s kit to perform these actions. At 6th level, the medic can treat deadly wounds or provide long term care to a number of creatures equal to her initiation modifier at the same time. In addition, when the medic treats a creature’s deadly wounds it recover hit points as if it had rested for a full day with long term care. At 11th level, when the medic treat deadly wounds, the creature recovers hit point and ability damage as if it had rested for 3 days.


Also, that should probably be corrected to recovers rather than recover.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Some new items have been added to the medic document. They're located at the end of the doc, feel free to take a look.

does the power charm of recuperation also increase the healing done by the sanguinist?

[Elricaltovilla]

The medic wears the charm of recovery. Because the charm of recovery is a refinement charm, multiples stack. When the medic uses Improved Treatment, they restore additional hit points to the target equal to the number of charms of recovery they have equipped on their charm bracelet or necklace.


does the power charm of recuperation also increase the healing done by the sanguinist?

Yes. The sanguinist still uses triage actions to heal targets, so power charm of recuperation applies to them as well.

[Doc_Maynot]

The medic wears the charm of recovery. Because the charm of recovery is a refinement charm, multiples stack. When the medic uses Improved Treatment, they restore additional hit points to the target equal to the number of charms of recovery they have equipped on their charm bracelet or necklace.

Okay, so that interaction is intended? Now I need to go buy me like... Every one of them I can get my grubby dwarven hands on.

[Elricaltovilla]

Okay, so that interaction is intended? Now I need to go buy me like... Every one of them I can get my grubby dwarven hands on.

Yes it's intended. Charms need to be placed on a Bracelet of Charms (1,000 GP) or Necklace of Many Charms (2,000 GP) before they work, and take up the requisite slots (wrist and neck).

The Bracelet of Charms and Necklace of Charms are in Steelforge, and they have a separate price and a maximum number of slots (5 for the bracelet and 10 for the necklace). So you're looking at spending 10,500 gp and two item slots for an extra 15 HP healed. Might not actually be the best use of your money.

EDIT: I forgot that you can explicitly wear two bracelets, so you could spend an additional 3,500 GP to increase that to 20 HP healed, but that puts your total cost at 14,000 GP.

[Doc_Maynot]

And now I am full of sadness.

[Elricaltovilla]

And now I am full of sadness.

At higher levels, it might be worth investing in for downtime healing, or just picking up the bracelets since the wrist slot doesn't take up a "big six" item. But we don't purposely go around making overpowered options :smalltongue:.

[Swaoeaeieu]

well adding the two bracelets is really good for sanguinists as it fills the gap at the start of combat where they havent build up enough blood to be effective yet. So its nice addition if you dont need the slots for anything else

[shawshank]

I want to suggest slightly nerfing Invigorating Touch. Perhaps half your initiation modifier? Maybe it gets a bit better with levels? Currently playing a Sanguinist. Combat usually begins. I go melee something for 1d3+1d6+8(20 dex/16 wis)+2(unarmed strike is broken blade weapon) and gain a bloodpool of 3. The next round I can initiate fast healing 3 for the entire party for 10 rounds. We are level 3. So that heals everyone for 30 health meaning unless we get 1 shot we can't die. Now, eventually this balances out and even gets past up. So I could see saying this improved to full initiation modifier at 6th, 1.5 modifier at 12th and double your initiation modifier at 18th or whatever. But at early levels it completely negates an encounter not based on conditions.. which is very few at low levels. Just a thought for balance sake. Also, I am playing that my Sanguinist has to have a blood pool to use invigorating touch but it does not actually require it RAW. Is this intentional?

[Elricaltovilla]

I want to suggest slightly nerfing Invigorating Touch. Perhaps half your initiation modifier? Maybe it gets a bit better with levels? Currently playing a Sanguinist. Combat usually begins. I go melee something for 1d3+1d6+8(20 dex/16 wis)+2(unarmed strike is broken blade weapon) and gain a bloodpool of 3. The next round I can initiate fast healing 3 for the entire party for 10 rounds. We are level 3. So that heals everyone for 30 health meaning unless we get 1 shot we can't die. Now, eventually this balances out and even gets past up. So I could see saying this improved to full initiation modifier at 6th, 1.5 modifier at 12th and double your initiation modifier at 18th or whatever. But at early levels it completely negates an encounter not based on conditions.. which is very few at low levels. Just a thought for balance sake. Also, I am playing that my Sanguinist has to have a blood pool to use invigorating touch but it does not actually require it RAW. Is this intentional?

It takes 10 rounds to heal 30 hit points given the information you provided. You mean to tell me that you've never taken more than 3 damage per round in any level 3 fight you've ever had? I find that hard to believe given that the table of expected monster statistics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation) provided by paizo states that the expected low damage of a CR 1/2 creature is 3 damage and the expected damage of a CR 3 ranges from 9 to 13, meaning it would be expected to take a minimum of 3 rounds before you heal off the total damage of an attack, during which time you could be expected to take more attacks, which will outpace your provided fast healing numbers.

Invigorating Touch does not require the expenditure of hit points from the blood pool to function. That is intentional. As has been stated previously in this thread.

[shawshank]

It takes 10 rounds to heal 30 hit points given the information you provided. You mean to tell me that you've never taken more than 3 damage per round in any level 3 fight you've ever had? I find that hard to believe given that the table of expected monster statistics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation) provided by paizo states that the expected low damage of a CR 1/2 creature is 3 damage and the expected damage of a CR 3 ranges from 9 to 13, meaning it would be expected to take a minimum of 3 rounds before you heal off the total damage of an attack, during which time you could be expected to take more attacks, which will outpace your provided fast healing numbers.

Invigorating Touch does not require the expenditure of hit points from the blood pool to function. That is intentional. As has been stated previously in this thread.

Alright then. It has just been my experience so far. I think the biggest gripe with it is the action economy shenanigans. Instead of worrying about someone using an action to heal for 1d8+3 every time it is needed, the medic can grant 1 person fast healing 3 or higher for 10 rounds as a swift or usually the entire party as a full round action. Also, while your damage range of 9-13 is certainly correct, you seem to be ignoring the +6 to hit on average for melee enemies. Assuming an AC of 16 at 3rd level(low for many melee classes) you are only being hit 55% of the time. So that 9-13 turns into 45-7. Higher AC's obviously reduce that further to the point that fast healing 3 will statistically eliminate the possibility of dying.. at least using a mathematically average. Obviously a CR 1/2 Orc can still crit you for 4d4+8, just very rarely. And that has been our experience thus far. I have a 20 dex, studded leather and a buckler for a 20AC(Small). Our Oracle has a 22. We are the 2 melee oriented characters and are therefore targeted more often than not by lower level critters. Assuming the +6 to hit and giving them the high end of 13 damage, I will take on average (13*.35) 4.55 per round per CR 3. So, unless multiple focus me and I do nothing about it.. such as using counters I never have to worry about dying.. at least not from hp damage.

Anyways, carry on. Was not meant to attack the ability. Just my observations.

[MilleniaAntares]

Is it intentional that there is no Extra Medic Expertise feat?

Imposing Shield's current restrictions make Eternal Guardian's Oath a far less beneficial feat, because its relative benefit is greatly reduced by the stacking. This may conflict with any design intention of not having Eternal Guardian-related benefits conflict with itself.

I like the new items, though I personally am not a fan of consumables...

That said, for both the incense and plaster, it's basically 750 gp for up to 6 points of ability damage/penalty ignoring? Also, I somehow like the idea of characters using these items to desperately negate ability drain until they can go and find a means to remove the drain itself. Especially since non-witch doctor medics don't seem to have a native means of removing ability drain as-is! That said, I can understand for conceptual reasons why that wouldn't be the case...

Do you think it would be a good idea to insert bracelet of charms and necklace of many charms into this release? While certainly product cross-compatibility is good, I don't think something like those charm-holding items should be excluded. Think of it as like a sneak peak at what Steelforge can offer, instead of being "buy Steelforge or check the SRD in a year if you want to use these items".

[Elricaltovilla]

Is it intentional that there is no Extra Medic Expertise feat?

It's not in there because it's not the kind of feat that really needs playtesting. But I'll add it later today.


Imposing Shield's current restrictions make Eternal Guardian's Oath a far less beneficial feat, because its relative benefit is greatly reduced by the stacking. This may conflict with any design intention of not having Eternal Guardian-related benefits conflict with itself.

Sorry, I'm not following. Can you expand on this?


I like the new items, though I personally am not a fan of consumables...

That said, for both the incense and plaster, it's basically 750 gp for up to 6 points of ability damage/penalty ignoring? Also, I somehow like the idea of characters using these items to desperately negate ability drain until they can go and find a means to remove the drain itself. Especially since non-witch doctor medics don't seem to have a native means of removing ability drain as-is! That said, I can understand for conceptual reasons why that wouldn't be the case...

Ability Drain is one of those things that has perception issues. It's functionally similar to ability score damage (in that they both end up applying penalties to your derived scores, ability drain just also manages to do it with odd number values), but because it doesn't recover naturally it must clearly be a whole lot stronger right? That means cheap items to treat ability drain have a problem of being considered "too good" by a large base of people even if mechanically that doesn't make sense.


Do you think it would be a good idea to insert bracelet of charms and necklace of many charms into this release? While certainly product cross-compatibility is good, I don't think something like those charm-holding items should be excluded. Think of it as like a sneak peak at what Steelforge can offer, instead of being "buy Steelforge or check the SRD in a year if you want to use these items".

I haven't checked with psybomb about it yet but that was the plan on my end. Again, I hadn't bothered putting them in this document because they don't really need to be playtested further.

[MilleniaAntares]

Sorry, I'm not following. Can you expand on this?
If you pay for Eternal Guardian's Oath (via the prerequisites, feat slot, and the activation requirement) by itself, you get a -4 penalty mark. Could be worth it, but it isn't mandatorily powerful.

If you pay for Imposing Shield, you get a -2 penalty mark that doesn't stack with anything else. It's possibly worth it for tank types, especially since it's easy to use.

If you pay for Imposing Shield, then Eternal Guardian Oath loses value because - for your shield bash-targets - it only applies an additional -2 penalty. Since the -4 penalty overlaps the -2, rather than stacking. Thus, most people with Eternal Guardian + Iron Tortoise access would logically either get Imposing Shield or Eternal Guardian's Oath, but not both, because they do not stack.

If you are concerned for huge penalty stacking, I suggest instead making Imposing Shield not stack with Armiger's Mark and Aggravated Wounds. That way, non-warders will be able to sometimes get a -6 mark by spending 3 feats, equivalent to a level 1-7 warder with Powerful Marks, or a level 8+ warder without a feat.


Ability Drain is one of those things that has perception issues. It's functionally similar to ability score damage (in that they both end up applying penalties to your derived scores, ability drain just also manages to do it with odd number values), but because it doesn't recover naturally it must clearly be a whole lot stronger right? That means cheap items to treat ability drain have a problem of being considered "too good" by a large base of people even if mechanically that doesn't make sense.
Fair enough!


I haven't checked with psybomb about it yet but that was the plan on my end. Again, I hadn't bothered putting them in this document because they don't really need to be playtested further.
Gotcha!


It's not in there because it's not the kind of feat that really needs playtesting. But I'll add it later today.
Thanks.

[Prime32]

Plague Doctor
You know how to treat disease and prevent its spread
Prerequisites: Heal 7 ranks.
Benefit: If you have successfully treated someone for a disease using the Heal skill, you can perform a Heal check on healthy individuals to give them a bonus on saving throws against that disease for one month equal to your Wisdom modifier. The DC of this Heal check is the same as the DC to treat the disease.
Feels like it needs something more at higher levels, when disease becomes easier to deal with. Maybe at 14 ranks a character with this feat becomes immune to disease?


Gungnir Technique
Prerequisites: Two Piercing Thunder maneuvers known, two Silver Crane maneuvers known.
Benefits: While you maintain a Silver Crane stance, polearms and spears you wield can affect incorporeal creatures as if they possessed the ​ghost touch​ weapon special ability, and you can attack possessing creatures. Whenever you hit a possessed creature with such a weapon, you can choose for your attack to affect the possessing entity rather than the target.I... I kind of want this to say "Piercing Thunder discipline weapons" (or even use Veiled Moon or something instead of Piercing Thunder) just so that there's a way to do this with a sword (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/uq-holder/images/5/58/Evil_Cutting_Sword_Second_Strike.png/revision/latest?cb=20141005174803). :smalltongue:

[Elricaltovilla]

Feels like it needs something more at higher levels, when disease becomes easier to deal with. Maybe at 14 ranks a character with this feat becomes immune to disease?

Maybe.


I... I kind of want this to say "Piercing Thunder discipline weapons" (or even use Veiled Moon or something instead of Piercing Thunder) just so that there's a way to do this with a sword (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/uq-holder/images/5/58/Evil_Cutting_Sword_Second_Strike.png/revision/latest?cb=20141005174803). :smalltongue:

That is a very tiny thumbnail, but it looks like it might be from Negima? If so, I may have to indulge you.

[Axebird]

Incense of convalescence and plaster of recuperation seem way too expensive for they do. At that price it's basically just going to temporarily negate a bestow curse to reduce a physical or mental ability score (which... I don't think happens very often in most games, and you'd want to treat permanently anyway), because if ability score damage is your problem you could get a wand of lesser restoration or 15 potions of lesser restoration for the same price and permanently treat a lot more damage to physical or mental scores with the same equipment.

The charm of recuperation and charm of guardianship are so effective for their price they're almost certainly must-haves. You might as well just roll their number increases into what the abilities already do at a certain level, because virtually all medics are going to take those.

I don't understand why the charm of immunity or charm of inoculation need to exist. Those are already completely trivial skill checks you won't need to make very often. Why would you want to spend money and slots on making a skill check you can already auto-succeed on by taking 10 better? The charm of recovery is almost never going to matter- HP attrition is already extremely minor in the base game, and Path of War completely eliminates it. You're not going to be going to bed wounded, and if you did so specifically to take advantage of the charm, it would get you, at most, 10 HP over an 8 hour period for 5,000 gp.


Ability Drain is one of those things that has perception issues. It's functionally similar to ability score damage (in that they both end up applying penalties to your derived scores, ability drain just also manages to do it with odd number values), but because it doesn't recover naturally it must clearly be a whole lot stronger right? That means cheap items to treat ability drain have a problem of being considered "too good" by a large base of people even if mechanically that doesn't make sense.

Ability drain also actually reduces the score, rather than imposing penalties. That can turn off feats, stop you from casting levels of spells, and applies to more than what ability damage does (reducing carrying capacity, for instance).

[Elricaltovilla]

Incense of convalescence and plaster of recuperation seem way too expensive for they do. At that price it's basically just going to temporarily negate a bestow curse to reduce a physical or mental ability score (which... I don't think happens very often in most games, and you'd want to treat permanently anyway), because if ability score damage is your problem you could get a wand of lesser restoration or 15 potions of lesser restoration for the same price and permanently treat a lot more damage to physical or mental scores with the same equipment.

It's better for dealing with penalties than dealing with actual ability score damage. Restoration and the like don't remove penalties, so the plaster and incense are useful in emergency situations for dealing with ability score penalties where you don't have remove curse or break enchantment immediately on hand.


The charm of recuperation and charm of guardianship are so effective for their price they're almost certainly must-haves. You might as well just roll their number increases into what the abilities already do at a certain level, because virtually all medics are going to take those.

Just so we're on the same page here, Power Charms don't stack, so each only applies their effect once.

Charm of Guardianship is equivalent to the Extra Guardian of Life feat, so you're paying 2000+ GP for a feat that might not otherwise fit into your build. I think that's a fair price.

Charm of Recuperation heals +1 HP per IL, so it caps at an additional 20 HP at 20th level. It's nice to have but hardly game breaking.


I don't understand why the charm of immunity or charm of inoculation need to exist. Those are already completely trivial skill checks you won't need to make very often. Why would you want to spend money and slots on making a skill check you can already auto-succeed on by taking 10 better? The charm of recovery is almost never going to matter- HP attrition is already extremely minor in the base game, and Path of War completely eliminates it. You're not going to be going to bed wounded, and if you did so specifically to take advantage of the charm, it would get you, at most, 10 HP over an 8 hour period for 5,000 gp.

I'm not going to comment on charm of immunity or charm of inoculation, they're 500 GP each, nobody is forced to take them. If it's really a problem for them to exist I'll remove them later.

As for Charm of Recovery: These two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20990860&postcount=212) posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20990876&postcount=214) in conjunction should give a decent explanation of its value.


Ability drain also actually reduces the score, rather than imposing penalties. That can turn off feats, stop you from casting levels of spells, and applies to more than what ability damage does (reducing carrying capacity, for instance).

Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten about Ability Drain turning off feats. I'll take that under advisement when I look at editing the plaster and incense.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I thought the thumbnail was a little small too. Turns out he copied part of the URL that made it smaller.

Here's the pic Prime tried to link. (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/uq-holder/images/5/58/Evil_Cutting_Sword_Second_Strike.png/revision/latest)

[Elricaltovilla]

I thought the thumbnail was a little small too. Turns out he copied part of the URL that made it smaller.

Here's the pic Prime tried to link. (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/uq-holder/images/5/58/Evil_Cutting_Sword_Second_Strike.png/revision/latest)

That's still really small.

[Ilorin Lorati]

What's the resolution show up as to you? It's 827x450 when I load it.

Edit: Try this: http://uq-holder.wikia.com/wiki/File:Evil_Cutting_Sword_Second_Strike.png

[Elricaltovilla]

What's the resolution show up as to you? It's 827x450 when I load it.

Edit: Try this: http://uq-holder.wikia.com/wiki/File:Evil_Cutting_Sword_Second_Strike.png

Idk. That works. UQ Holder is almost Negima. I'll think about it.

[Prime32]

Idk. That works. UQ Holder is almost Negima. I'll think about it.Zanmaken: Ni no Tachi (http://negipedia.wikia.com/wiki/Zanmaken_Ni-no-Tachi) has been in everything since Love Hina. I just couldn't find a good pic of someone from Negima using it.

[MilleniaAntares]

If anyone wants to optimize their mundane healing with the Medic, then I highly recommend the Battlefield Surgeon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/battlefield-surgeon) religious trait.

[Swaoeaeieu]

The medic wears the charm of recovery. Because the charm of recovery is a refinement charm, multiples stack. When the medic uses Improved Treatment, they restore additional hit points to the target equal to the number of charms of recovery they have equipped on their charm bracelet or necklace.



Yes. The sanguinist still uses triage actions to heal targets, so power charm of recuperation applies to them as well.

well that charm really worked wonders! being able to triage 20 hp without needing to build up my blood reserve really helped at the bossfights yesterday. Campaign is over now sadly. but will recommend the medic to anyone wnating to heal wihtout being a cleric ^^

[EldritchWeaver]

In honor of this thread, I'm going to use the following joke in my campaign: What do you call a doctor on a horse participating in a joust?

Come on, you don't wanna guess? Fine...
Ambu-Lancer!
The best part is that a medic decataur will tell this joke.:smallbiggrin:

[Elricaltovilla]

In honor of this thread, I'm going to use the following joke in my campaign: What do you call a doctor on a horse participating in a joust?

Come on, you don't wanna guess? Fine...
Ambu-Lancer!
The best part is that a medic decataur will tell this joke.:smallbiggrin:

I laughed.

[MilleniaAntares]

I don't know if you care too much about this, but the Wrathful Healing expertise does not stack with Tempest Gale Stance. Perhaps Wrathful Healing can be a typed bonus? Insight is used for Cura Te Ipsum, and morale is often used by initiators, just as suggestions...

[Elricaltovilla]

Heads up y'all. This is going to be the last week of playtesting for the Medic. No the document won't be going down, but at the end of the week I'll be moving on to getting the document ready to publish and into the patreon queue. So if you've got any last feedback, now's the time to get it in.

[Mehangel]

Heads up y'all. This is going to be the last week of playtesting for the Medic. No the document won't be going down, but at the end of the week I'll be moving on to getting the document ready to publish and into the patreon queue. So if you've got any last feedback, now's the time to get it in.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A medic is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except for tower shields). Each medic begins play with a free healer’s kit in addition to her normal equipment.

The bolded text above might be more appropriately placed in the Starting Wealth section. If creating a level 1 character, players are more likely to check the Starting Wealth section when picking out starting gear. Multiclass characters on the other hand will usually have enough starting wealth that even if they "miss it" they wont be hurting for having accidentally spent the 50gp on it.

[Beowulf DW]

Just started an Iron Gods campaign with a medic. No complaints so far. The other players love the increased survival rate at low levels. A well-made class.

[Valerem]

So... I'm coming back into the game after a 4 month absence, and DSP has always had my support. But before I take the Medic for testing, there is something I got to ask first.

Has Pazio released anything since March that I should take a look at?

[MilleniaAntares]

I don't see anything on bleeds in the PDF... so depending on what interaction you want with them, you may wish to add in a clause that you can make a Heal check to stop bleeds when you triage someone (perhaps as a medic expertise?). This may be necessary as I've seen some bleeds that state "magical healing OR a DC X Heal check", and since triage isn't magical healing...

[EldritchWeaver]

Some typos I've found still lurking in the playtest document:


The Knowledge skills never capitalize the subskills inside of the parentheses.
The order of the disciplines isn't alphabetized.
Inside Master Medic, triage shouldn't be capitalized.
Imposing Shield: Prerequisites should be ended with a period.
Charm of Immunity: "you" needs to be capitalized.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm wondering regarding the Guardian of Life ability's counter: Do you need to have one readied, if you actually lend it to your ally?

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm wondering regarding the Guardian of Life ability's counter: Do you need to have one readied, if you actually lend it to your ally?

Yes you do. The medic is still using the counter, it just happens to affect a different target. You can't use a maneuver if you don't have it readied.

[Gee-chan]

So, just to check, but is there a reason the Medic get absolutely no way to heal negative levels or energy drain? Would it not be a good move to make abilities like Improved Recovering Touch have the line "using this ability counts as the Heal spell for the purposes of removing conditions that require that specific spell"?

[amberlink]

Any news on when this will get its official release?

[meemaas]

It's next in line for DSPs Patreon queue. So end of December