D&D Footrace: Who can run the fastest mile?

[uraniumrooster]

So, this is pretty useless theory crafting, but I got bored and thought I'd see what I could come up with for the fastest mile time. I know that using fly speeds characters can get ridiculously high movement, but I used to run track and thought it'd be interesting to limit it to ground-based movement only.

The Rules:

Characters will run, on foot, 5,280 feet as fast as they can.
Builds can be up to level 20, no Magic Items (except those created by class features, such as the Transmuter's Stone) or Epic Boons allowed.
Each race will be an individual time-trial with the track swept clean between heats, so runners will not be able to obstruct other contestants, drop caltrops, etc.
Contestants must cover the entire distance on foot - no fly speeds, teleportation, planar travel, shadow hopping, etc.
Shapechanging is allowed, but as above, the use of any flying speeds will result in disqualification. Also, be sure that whatever spell or ability you use to change shape allows for the use of any class features necessary for your build.
Each character gets one round (Round 0) to cast short-term buffs, make use of class abilities, etc. Longer-duration buffs from spells or class/race features may be prepared in advance.
The clock starts at the beginning of Round 1. Each full round is 6 seconds. On the round a character crosses the finish line, the time taken that round will be calculated as follows: (D/M)*6 seconds, where D is the Distance traveled in feet before crossing the finish line that round, and M is the total amount of Movement they had available for that round.


First contestant:
VHuman (Mobile): Druid (Moon) 2, Fighter 2, Monk 10, Wizard (Transmuter) 6

Pre-race Prep: Transmuter's Stone (+10' movement) in a pouch on a loose cord tied around my neck, Longstrider cast 15 minutes before race time, some light stretching
Round 0: Cast Haste (Action); Wild Shape Lion (Bonus Action), w/ my Transmuters Stone remaining around my neck instead of merging with my form.
Speed = 50' + 10' (Longstrider) + 10' (Mobile) + 20' (Monk) + 10' (Transmuters Stone) = 100' * 2 (Haste) = 200'
Round 1: Move 200', Dash 4 times (Action, Haste Action, Action Surge, Bonus Action). 1,000' Total.
Rounds 2-6: Move 800' per round (As above, but without Action Surge). 4,000' Total.
Round 7: Move 800', cross the finish line after 280'

Round 7 time = (280/800)*6 = 2.1 seconds

Total mile time = 38.1 seconds (~95 mph)

Usain Bolt eat your heart out... Chevy Bolt eat your heart out.

[hymer]

Why lion over riding horse? Horses (60') are faster than lions (50').

[uraniumrooster]

Why lion over riding horse? Horses (60') are faster than lions (50').

Hmm, good point. Lions look cooler?

[hymer]

Lions look cooler?

Quite true!

[uraniumrooster]

Quite true!

The same build wildshaping into a Riding Horse instead of a Lion would cut the time down to 34.5 seconds (~104 mph average speed).

1100' covered on the first round,
880' on rounds 2-6, crossing the finish line 660' into round 6.

Nice catch! :smallsmile:

[AmayaElls]

This is cool, I was silly and posted before I read things fully, (which is why I've changed my post completely). Multiclassing can be pretty crazy sometimes and fun to look at :)

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, that was about the only kind of upgrade I saw, at least for that particular build...and with the restrictions in place, I think it's the best we're gonna get, especially since this kind of contest favors burst speed.

For what it's worth, I did discover a couple interesting things: eagle totem barbarian gets bonus action Dash while raging, which is useful, but Rogue 2 gets it all the time. The most interesting thing I discovered was a way to move using your reaction: namely, a Vengeance Paladin 7 can move half their speed during an opportunity attack (if they hit, IIRC).

[hymer]

I believe most reputable foot races frown on jabbing, tripping and blocking as a game plan, although running as a blood sport would be interesting. Particularly in D&D land. :smallbiggrin:

[uraniumrooster]

Yeah, when I picked a mile I was thinking 5,280' would be a long enough distance to balance it out for burst speeds, but when you can double your speed w/ haste then move that distance 4-5x each turn, it adds up quick. I might test what it would look like if it was increased to a marathon or half-marathon distance, but I suspect then it'd be hard to compete with a Wood Elf Monk 18/Rogue 2 w/ Mobile.

I looked at Eagle Totem too, but I couldn't figure out a consistent way to deal/take damage every round to stop rage from ending early, other than committing 15 levels to Barb.

[AvatarVecna]

I believe most reputable foot races frown on jabbing, tripping and blocking as a game plan, although running as a blood sport would be interesting. Particularly in D&D land. :smallbiggrin:

That wouldn't quite work here, because you're not all running at the same time. No, to take advantage of both the Eagle Totem Rage and the Vengeance Paladin chase-down, you would need creatures working with you on the track who are positioned so that they can attack you (keeping rage going) and then run away (triggering an AoO), in such a way that they have poor AC and you have advantage on the attack. If done right, this should give you Bonus Action Dashing as well as Reaction half-moves.

The only other way I've found to possible abuse that Paladin feature is if a Vengeance Paladin's Wizard friend Shapechanges them into a Marilith, and then their druid friend has several flocks of pigeons strategically positioned along the track to do the "fly away from the marilith, triggering one of her infinite reactions, giving her another half-move" trick.

With enough pigeons spaced every 40 ft or so, you could theoretically move an infinite distance in a single round...but it would require outside help. That being said, it would require three people with straight-class builds, rather than 1 person with a hodgepodge of classes they only took so that they could win a 1-mile foot race once a day.

[uraniumrooster]

That being said, it would require three people with straight-class builds, rather than 1 person with a hodgepodge of classes they only took so that they could win a 1-mile foot race once a day.

Hey, to be fair, Leon could win 4 or 5 1-mile footraces in a day, as long as he got a Short Rest between them. :smallbiggrin:

[Professor Gnoll]

The only other way I've found to possible abuse that Paladin feature is if a Vengeance Paladin's Wizard friend Shapechanges them into a Marilith, and then their druid friend has several flocks of pigeons strategically positioned along the track to do the "fly away from the marilith, triggering one of her infinite reactions, giving her another half-move" trick.

With enough pigeons spaced every 40 ft or so, you could theoretically move an infinite distance in a single round...but it would require outside help.
"Sir! We've solved faster-than-light travel!"
"What? But how?"
"Well, we're going to need a 17th level Wizard and a flock of pigeons."

[AvatarVecna]

"Sir! We've solved faster-than-light travel!"
"What? But how?"
"Well, we're going to need a 17th level Wizard and a flock* of pigeons."

*: Anywhere from 36 million to 150 million pigeons, depending on what additional buff spells are in play.

[Professor Gnoll]

*: Anywhere from 36 to 150 million pigeons, depending on what additional buff spells are in play.
Good to know that intergalactic travel is only 36 pigeons away.

[AvatarVecna]

Good to know that intergalactic travel is only 36 pigeons away.

I'd complain about the rules-lawyery pedantry going on here, but it'd be hypocritical of me. :smallamused:

[JoeJ]

The only other way I've found to possible abuse that Paladin feature is if a Vengeance Paladin's Wizard friend Shapechanges them into a Marilith, and then their druid friend has several flocks of pigeons strategically positioned along the track to do the "fly away from the marilith, triggering one of her infinite reactions, giving her another half-move" trick.

How does a marilith get to move as a reaction? The only reaction listed in the stat block is parry.

[hymer]

How does a marilith get to move as a reaction? The only reaction listed in the stat block is parry.

It probably doesn't. They're talking hypothetically adding seven levels of Vengenace Paladin on the marilith:


The most interesting thing I discovered was a way to move using your reaction: namely, a Vengeance Paladin 7 can move half their speed during an opportunity attack (if they hit, IIRC).

Or giving marilith powers to a 7th level vengeance paladin.

[JoeJ]

It probably doesn't. They're talking hypothetically adding seven levels of Vengenace Paladin on the marilith:



Or giving marilith powers to a 7th level vengeance paladin.

Ah, okay. So how do you get to be a marilith with the class abilities of a 7th level paladin?

[uraniumrooster]

It required multiple characters (at least 2 I think) the way AvatarVecna described it

Character 1 (Vengeance Paladin 7/Druid 13) gets a bunch of Pigeons to line up along the track
Character 2 (Wizard 17+) casts Shapechange to turn the Pally into a Marilith, and as the Pally runs along the track, the pigeons fly away, triggering opportunity attacks which, if they hit, allow the Pally-Marilith to move half their speed again as a reaction.

I think Shapechange is self-only though, as I recall, so it might not work. Also, all of those Pigeons would have to roll initiative! :smalleek:

[hymer]

Ah, okay. So how do you get to be a marilith with the class abilities of a 7th level paladin?

I'm thinking Wish and DM indulgence is likely the best possibility.


It required multiple characters (at least 2 I think) the way AvatarVecna described it

Character 1 (Vengeance Paladin 7/Druid 13) gets a bunch of Pigeons to line up along the track
Character 2 (Wizard 17+) casts Shapechange to turn the Pally into a Marilith, and as the Pally runs along the track, the pigeons fly away, triggering opportunity attacks which, if they hit, allow the Pally-Marilith to move half their speed again as a reaction.

I think Shapechange is self-only though, as I recall, so it might not work. Also, all of those Pigeons would have to roll initiative! :smalleek:

The spells that let you change into something as powerful as a marilith very sensibly remove class abilities for the duration.

And then there's the problem of hitting every time, as it doesn't work if you fail to hit. Maybe Warcaster and some cantrip that hits automatically, maybe because it does half damage if you miss? Iffy. Very iffy.

[Professor Gnoll]

Sigh. Guess we'd better put away the pigeons, then. No FTL travel via avian abuse today, crew.

[uraniumrooster]

Sigh. Guess we'd better put away the pigeons, then. No FTL travel via avian abuse today, crew.

It was a good effort. Should have known better than to mix science and birds though... it never works. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/large-hadron-collider/6514155/Large-Hadron-Collider-broken-by-bread-dropped-by-passing-bird.html)

[Professor Gnoll]

It was a good effort. Should have known better than to mix science and birds though... it never works. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/large-hadron-collider/6514155/Large-Hadron-Collider-broken-by-bread-dropped-by-passing-bird.html)
I was braced for the 'Air speed of an unladen swallow' joke. I was pleasantly surprised.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm thinking Wish and DM indulgence is likely the best possibility.



The spells that let you change into something as powerful as a marilith very sensibly remove class abilities for the duration.

And then there's the problem of hitting every time, as it doesn't work if you fail to hit. Maybe Warcaster and some cantrip that hits automatically, maybe because it does half damage if you miss? Iffy. Very iffy.

Polymorph doesn't let you use class features, but Shapechange does...however, as the OP pointed out, Shapechange targets the caster only. If there's any way to target somebody else with a self-targeting spell, we can pull this off, but otherwise this is only a thing that can happen in high-level gestalt.

Hitting is only a concern if you're not rigging the game in your favor...which, if you've gone through the trouble of setting up a pigeon every 40 ft, why not set up several pigeons every 40 ft. You'll get an AoO against all of them anyway, since it's 1/turn; assuming you get Shapechange on the Vengeance Paladin somehow (which there probably isn't a way to do), they would have to miss every pigeon capable of flying past them...and with a Marilith's attack bonus, the idea that they'd roll that many 1s in a row is laughable...especially if you have continuous advantage from something (like another friendly caster using Greater Invisibility or Foresight or something similar). Assuming each target square is surrounded by 8 pigeons, and all of them fly away triggering an AoO, you've got a 1 in 655 quintillion chance of missing every single pigeon when they fly away.

[Giant2005]

Drop the Monk levels down to 2 and replace them with Barb 5 and Rogue 2 (and an inconsequential 1 of anything). You will be much faster with the Rogue's bonus action Dash.
Also, a Wood Elf with Mobile is obviously faster than a Human with Mobile.

[uraniumrooster]

Drop the Monk levels down to 2 and replace them with Barb 5 and Rogue 2 (and an inconsequential 1 of anything). You will be much faster with the Rogue's bonus action Dash.
Also, a Wood Elf with Mobile is obviously faster than a Human with Mobile.

For sustained speed, I agree with the choice of Rogue, but for running a mile, the build I posted can finish in under 10 rounds, so using Ki points for Step of the Wind ends up working just as well. Wildshape also replaces the base form's speed, so either Wood Elf or Human end up coming out the same since they both just turn into a Horse.

[AvatarVecna]

Drop the Monk levels down to 2 and replace them with Barb 5 and Rogue 2 (and an inconsequential 1 of anything). You will be much faster with the Rogue's bonus action Dash.
Also, a Wood Elf with Mobile is obviously faster than a Human with Mobile.

1) The Monk levels are already giving him Bonus Action Dash; admittedly, at the cost of Ki, but he's got enough for the whole race.

2) Swapping out 5 levels of Monk for 5 levels of Barbarian would lose him that Bonus Action Dash in a few of those rounds, and would reduce the Monk bonus from +20 to +10.

The net difference between Monk 10 and Monk 3/Rogue 2/Barbarian 5 in this build is that one can bonus action dash the whole day, so I guess that's something, but it also squeezes two more classes into this already crowded build. Also, racial features don't help much when you're polymorphing into a horse.

[hymer]

Polymorph doesn't let you use class features, but Shapechange does...however, as the OP pointed out, Shapechange targets the caster only. If there's any way to target somebody else with a self-targeting spell, we can pull this off, but otherwise this is only a thing that can happen in high-level gestalt.

My bad!


Hitting is only a concern if you're not rigging the game in your favor...which, if you've gone through the trouble of setting up a pigeon every 40 ft, why not set up several pigeons every 40 ft. You'll get an AoO against all of them anyway, since it's 1/turn; assuming you get Shapechange on the Vengeance Paladin somehow (which there probably isn't a way to do), they would have to miss every pigeon capable of flying past them...and with a Marilith's attack bonus, the idea that they'd roll that many 1s in a row is laughable...especially if you have continuous advantage from something (like another friendly caster using Greater Invisibility or Foresight or something similar). Assuming each target square is surrounded by 8 pigeons, and all of them fly away triggering an AoO, you've got a 1 in 655 quintillion chance of missing every single pigeon when they fly away.

How do you achieve the initiative needed, though? Maybe the pidgeons could ready actions to move away once the marilith/paladin is in place. Edit: Though that would be... weird. Since they're not moving on their turn, this could be an organizational nightmare beyond what it already is.
The paladin could use scrolls of shapechange, and a level in a class that has it on their spell list. Arcana DC 19 would let you cast it. Except that isn't allowed by the rules of this particular run, of course.

Unfortunately, anything less than 100% means you can't achieve limitless speed. We're talking interstellar distances (if I got it half right), though.

[Professor Gnoll]

I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion on how best to construct a pigeon-based faster-than-light engine via polymorphing someone into a snake demon.

[hymer]

I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion on how best to construct a pigeon-based faster-than-light engine via polymorphing someone into a snake demon.

Well, we're going to run out of pigeons before we leave the solar system, I'm afraid.

[AvatarVecna]

My bad!



How do you achieve the initiative needed, though? Maybe the pidgeons could ready actions to move away once the marilith/paladin is in place. Edit: Though that would be... weird. Since they're not moving on their turn, this could be an organizational nightmare beyond what it already is.
The paladin could use scrolls of shapechange, and a level in a class that has it on their spell list. Arcana DC 19 would let you cast it. Except that isn't allowed by the rules of this particular run, of course.

Unfortunately, anything less than 100% means you can't achieve limitless speed. We're talking interstellar distances (if I got it half right), though.

If we're arranging the position of some billion-odd pigeons to launch a shapechanged paladin past the speed of light, I would hope we had set up their initiative just as precisely as we had their position.

Ooh, a Scroll! It can be done! Oh, yeah, it wouldn't work for this contest, to be sure, but who cares? FtL travel is possible! Sort of. Pulling it off in a real game would likely involve either the DM staring at you before saying "NO", or would involve everybody drinking.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion on how best to construct a pigeon-based faster-than-light engine via polymorphing someone into a snake demon.

Aaaaaaaaand sigged.

[uraniumrooster]

If we're arranging the position of some billion-odd pigeons to launch a shapechanged paladin past the speed of light, I would hope we had set up their initiative just as precisely as we had their position.

Ooh, a Scroll! It can be done! Oh, yeah, it wouldn't work for this contest, to be sure, but who cares? FtL travel is possible! Sort of. Pulling it off in a real game would likely involve either the DM staring at you before saying "NO", or would involve everybody drinking.

Hmm, I'll allow the scroll in this case... for science!

The Speed of Light is 186,000 miles per second, or 982,080,000 fps. So, to break the Speed of Light in one 6-second round, you need to travel about 5.9 billion feet that round.

Let's say you go Druid 3/Monk 4/Pal 7/Wiz 6 and spend 2 of your 3 ASIs getting your Int to 20, for an Arcana skill of +11. It might take a couple tries before the race to get your Shapechange scrolls to work, but you'd get it.

You could end up with a speed of 40' (marilith) +10' (Longstrider) +10' (Mobile) +10' (Monk) + 10' (Transmuter's Stone) = 80'.

You start the race by dashing 160' up to the first group of pigeons, then end your turn. The pigeons move, triggering an AoO from you, and allowing you to move another 40' to the next pigeon group. If you have them spaced out every 40' for the entire 5.9 billion feet of required travel (less 160' for your first turn of movement), you'd only need to kill something like 147,311,996 pigeons to achieve FTL travel. Say groups of 6 pigeons at each "waypoint," so you have redundancy in case you miss one or two attacks, for a total of 883,872,000 pigeons involved in the whole operation.

Very nice!

[Giant2005]

Pigeons are too uncontrollable, I'm not sure why anyone would want to include them.
You can do it with an infinite number of Vengeance Paladins all lined in a row (and with the Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style and Polearm Master)).
The first one moves his movement speed forward and uses Tunnel Fighter. The next one moves forward the same distance (and triggers and OA so the first moves forward again) and then uses Tunnel Fighter. The third moves forward, triggering an OA on the second, who moves forward, triggering another OA on the first; and then uses Tunnel Fighter.
The process continues until they start moving too fast and the friction starts burning off their skin.

[Professor Gnoll]

You'd only need to kill something like 147,311,996 pigeons to achieve FTL travel.
This is useful information.

[AvatarVecna]

Hmm, I'll allow the scroll in this case... for science!

The Speed of Light is 186,000 miles per second, or 982,080,000 fps. So, to break the Speed of Light in one 6-second round, you need to travel about 5.9 billion feet that round.

Let's say you go Druid 3/Monk 4/Pal 7/Wiz 6 for a movement speed of 40' (marilith) +10' (Longstrider) +10' (Mobile) +10' (Monk) + 10' (Transmuter's Stone) = 80'.

You spend 2 of your 3 ASIs getting your Int to 20, so your Arcana skill is +11. It might take a couple tries before the Race to get your Shapechange scrolls to work, but you'd make it work.

You start the race by dashing 160' up to the first group of pigeons, then end your turn. The pigeons move, triggering an AoO from you, and allowing you to move another 40' to the next pigeon group. If you have them spaced out every 40' for the entire 5.9 billion feet of required travel (less 160' for your first turn of movement), you'd only need to kill something like 147,311,996 pigeons to achieve FTL travel.

That's assuming every attack hits...which, as was pointed out, is something I can't depend on. Having every square be surrounded by pigeons in 2 dimensions makes 8 pigeons per spot, bringing the total number of pigeons to about 1.2 billion. It's probably not necessary, but if we want to take this as far as possible in a single round...

Well, actually, if we wanted to take this as far as possible in a single round, we'd throw out this contest's rules altogether. Apply Haste and Wind Walk to the Marilith character, and now their half-move is 500 ft, which cuts down the number of pigeons necessary by a few degrees. Of course, because we're getting into three dimensional pigeons, and since we want to extend our range as much as possible, we're now surrounded by 25 pigeons at each point (it would be 26, but we need a space free to enter the middle of the pigeon ball); we could boost this number even higher if we put more than 1 pigeon in a square, but that shouldn't be necessary, since the odds of missing every pigeon next to you when you have advantage on the attack (whether from Greater Invisibility, Foresight, or something else) are 1 out of 1.126*10^65. We're at the point where statistics take over, but also past the point where my knowledge of statistics tells me what happens. My basic assumption would be that I move (1.126*10^65)-1 times that 500 ft.

Regardless of what the exact distance is, we're looking at doing more laps around the observable universe than there are stars in the sky.

[AvatarVecna]

If we're just shooting for the minimum number of pigeons needed to achieve light-speed, the calculations change up: looking at flight options, Wind Walk gives 500 ft. Assuming Haste (which doubles speed), Boots of Speed (which double speed), and all the shenanigans that grant extra Dashes, we're looking at an original round moving us a solid 8000 ft...to the first pigeon. Assuming we hit (with advantage and potentially Lucky, it should happen), we would move another 1000 ft (since that's a half-move for this ridiculous build). In total, we need to move 983,571,087.90472 ft; at 1000 ft increments, that comes to 983,572,000...which means we need 983,564 pigeon spots. Of course, even with advantage, we're likely to miss if there's only one pigeon per spot; with three pigeons at every spot, we have a ~98.5% chance of never missing all three with AoOs, letting us move to light speed. Thus, while the absolute minimum number of pigeons is just shy of 1 million, we'd probably want closer to 3 or 4 million pigeons...just to be safe.

[uraniumrooster]

Yeah, I was just approximating a minimum requirement to exceed the speed of light. Obviously, there isn't technically an upper limit to the achievable speed (except the number of pigeons that exist in the multiverse, I guess).

Also, Shapechange is already using up your concentration, so no Haste, and Wind Walk turns you into a cloud, so you wouldn't get attacks of opportunity from being a marilith. Wind Walk is the main reason I disallowed flying to begin with, because 300' fly as a base speed is pretty impossible to beat (unless you're a marilith running through an infinite pigeon swarm, of course). :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

Also, Shapechange is already using up your concentration, so no Haste, and Wind Walk turns you into a cloud, so you wouldn't get attacks of opportunity from being a marilith. Wind Walk is the main reason I disallowed flying to begin with, because 300' fly as a base speed is pretty impossible to beat (unless you're a marilith running through an infinite pigeon swarm, of course). :smallwink:

Haste isn't an issue; we're already assuming multiple Concentration spells and outside help, not to mention whoever's convincing the pigeons to stay put across the multiverse. That said, the Wind Walk thing is an issue, so we'll have to slow back down a good bit. Still, I feel like we have a good ball park estimate of more than a million, but less than a billion, pigeons that must die for our speed.

[Xetheral]

Pigeons are too uncontrollable, I'm not sure why anyone would want to include them.
You can do it with an infinite number of Vengeance Paladins all lined in a row (and with the Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style and Polearm Master)).
The first one moves his movement speed forward and uses Tunnel Fighter. The next one moves forward the same distance (and triggers and OA so the first moves forward again) and then uses Tunnel Fighter. The third moves forward, triggering an OA on the second, who moves forward, triggering another OA on the first; and then uses Tunnel Fighter.
The process continues until they start moving too fast and the friction starts burning off their skin.

I would assume large numbers of pigeons are easier to come by than large numbers of vengeance paladins. I think that holds true even when comparing "cooperative pigeons" with "cooperative vengeance paladins".

That being said, couldn't Tunnel Fighter just completely replace the need for Shapechanging into a Marilith to get unlimited opportunity attacks, making the faster-than-light trick workable under the original rules, assuming sufficient pigeons?

[Professor Gnoll]

That being said, couldn't Tunnel Fighter just completely replace the need for Shapechanging into a Marilith to get unlimited opportunity attacks, making the faster-than-light trick workable under the original rules, assuming sufficient pigeons?
Unfortunately not; as it requires you to use your Bonus Action to maintain a stance. Hmm, it might still work, it would just require more tightly placed pigeon intervals.

[Xetheral]

Unfortunately not; as it requires you to use your Bonus Action to maintain a stance. Hmm, it might still work, it would just require more tightly placed pigeon intervals.

I don't get the sense that the number or spacing of pigeons is a constraint here. The inability to shapechange, however, is such a constraint, even if only an arbitrary one. :)

[Professor Gnoll]

I don't get the sense that the number or spacing of pigeons is a constraint here. The inability to shapechange, however, is such a constraint, even if only an arbitrary one. :)
...True. Then yes, Tunnel Fighter should work, if we're allowing Unearthed Arcana.

[Xetheral]

Haste isn't an issue; we're already assuming multiple Concentration spells and outside help, not to mention whoever's convincing the pigeons to stay put across the multiverse. That said, the Wind Walk thing is an issue, so we'll have to slow back down a good bit. Still, I feel like we have a good ball park estimate of more than a million, but less than a billion, pigeons that must die for our speed.

The pigeons don't need to die... this is 5e... you can simply opt to knock them unconscious instead. :)

And when they wake up they're even already properly spaced for the return trip....

[Professor Gnoll]

The pigeons don't need to die... this is 5e... you can simply opt to knock them unconscious instead. :)

And when they wake up they're even already properly spaced for the return trip....
The vast Pigeon Relay Network has created a new era of galactic peace and stability, ensuring safe, quick travel for all.

[Grey Watcher]

I must be a terrible person. Before I read the whole discussion using pigeons, my first thought on the Vengeance Paladin exploit was "well, that's what the crowd's watching the race are for". :smalleek:

[Skylivedk]

The vast Pigeon Relay Network has created a new era of galactic peace and stability, ensuring safe, quick travel for all.

I'm happy i got to see this day. It has been a long time coming.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The vast Pigeon Relay Network has created a new era of galactic peace and stability, ensuring safe, quick travel for all.

Well, for all high level Tunnel Fighting Vengeance Paladins, anyway. But of course, you don't care about the Great Weapon Fighting 99%.

[Professor Gnoll]

Well, for all high level Tunnel Fighting Vengeance Paladins, anyway. But of course, you don't care about the Great Weapon Fighting 99%.
Worry not: Each Vengeance Paladin carries a plethora of passengers in their multiple Bags of Holding. Limited air isn't an issue when you can reach any part of the Pigeon Relay Network in 6 seconds.

[numerek]

Barbarian does actually get the build across the line a small fraction of a second faster
2 druid 60 base speed riding horse + 10 longstrider
6 transmuter wizard haste 2x speed + haste action + mobility 10 feet + 10 transmuter stone
6 monk +15
5 barbarian +10
19 total levels
(60+15+10+10+10+10)x2x4=920
mile is 5280 feet
5280/920 = 5 rounds + 680 feet in 6th round which is 34.43478 seconds at 104.545 miles per hour

0.06522 seconds faster


Yeah, when I picked a mile I was thinking 5,280' would be a long enough distance to balance it out for burst speeds, but when you can double your speed w/ haste then move that distance 4-5x each turn, it adds up quick. I might test what it would look like if it was increased to a marathon or half-marathon distance, but I suspect then it'd be hard to compete with a Wood Elf Monk 18/Rogue 2 w/ Mobile.

Marathon doesn't slow down the speed much as long as you have metamagic
only lost 10 of pre-haste single action speed
2 druid 60 base speed riding horse + 10 longstrider
2 rogue bonus action
5 sorcerer extend spell 32 minutes of haste 2x speed + haste action + mobility 10 feet
6 monk +15
5 barbarian +10
20 total levels
(60+15+10+10+10)x2x4=840
marathon is 138435 feet
138435/840 = 164 rounds + 675 feet in 165th round which is 16 minutes 28.821 seconds at 95.4545 miles per hour

For really long distances
loses another 30 of pre-haste single action speed
wood elf 35 base speed
2 rogue bonus action
11 sorcerer extend spell 24 hours of haste 2x speed + haste action + mobility 10 feet + 10 magic initiate for longstrider
2 monk +10
5 barbarian +10
17 total levels
(35+10+10+10+10)x2x4=600
a day is 14400 rounds
14400*600=8640000 feet or 1636.3636 miles at 68.1818 miles per hour

[Beleriphon]

Worry not: Each Vengeance Paladin carries a plethora of passengers in their multiple Bags of Holding. Limited air isn't an issue when you can reach any part of the Pigeon Relay Network in 6 seconds.

And small package transport. VengEx "The Multiverse, On Time"

[AvatarVecna]

I would assume large numbers of pigeons are easier to come by than large numbers of vengeance paladins.

If TV has taught me anything, it's that your average multiverse contains infinite versions of Batman.

[Tanarii]

For sustained speed, I agree with the choice of Rogue,
Are you taking into account that sustained speed doesn't include things like the Dash action? Nor does it include encounter speed. It's the same for all characters.

In Chases (which is what you're describing here) you can us Dash a maximum of 3+Con times, regardless of its from Cunning Action or not. (in other words Rogues can burn through their limit of Dashes faster before falling down to 1 move per round.) After that, each additional use costs a DC 10 Con check, +5 per check, and an level of exhaustion per failed check. Of course, if you don't Dash, you're falling behind, because you're going at least half as fast. But theoretically you could just use your encounter speed without ever gaining exhaustion in a chase scenario.

This means, for example, a 24 Con Barbarian with speed 40ft can sustain the chase longer than the Con 12 Monk with 60ft, but goes slow each round. And the Con 12 Rogue spd 30ft can gain an initial lead on the Barbarian by burning 2 Dashes per round, but runs out of gas really fast.

So Con is important too, not just base speed. Not sure if that changes your '1 mile' numbers or not, I didn't look at them closely enough.

[Hrugner]

So Con is important too, not just base speed. Not sure if that changes your '1 mile' numbers or not, I didn't look at them closely enough.

Well, lets see. Bolt needs wisdom dex and int at 13, but we can do a 15 and 3 13s with a standard stat buy. He's still burning 4 dashes on round one though leaving him one left for the 3 per turn dash use on down the line.

I guess bard for half proficiency in con checks would be useful, but we're still killing this guy before the mile is up.

[Tanarii]

I guess bard for half proficiency in con checks would be useful, but we're still killing this guy before the mile is up.
He'll be at spd 0 and out of the race before he can die.

Of course if he's frenzy Barb he can suicide at that point. :smallconfused:

[Naanomi]

How many people are judging and watching the race?

If it isn't too high I want to submit a Enchanter 20 who uses modify memory/alter memories on all other participants so they all remember how I totally beat that warp-speed paladin...

[Hrugner]

I guess we need to find someone who can gain immunity to exhaustion to win this then. Does wildshaping into an elemental give you their exhaustion immunity?

[numerek]

Exhaustion can also be solved but will slow you down quite a bit.

10 Circle of the Moon druid 50 base speed fire elemental immune to exhaustion + 10 longstrider
6 transmuter wizard haste 2x speed + haste action + mobility 10 feet + 10 transmuter stone
2 monk +10
2 rogue bonus action
20 total levels
(50+10+10+10+10)x2x4=720
mile is 5280 feet
5280/720 = 7 rounds + 240 feet in 8th round which is 44 seconds at 81.8182 miles per hour

10 Circle of the Moon druid 50 base speed fire elemental immune to exhaustion + 10 longstrider
5 sorcerer extend spell 32 minutes of haste haste 2x speed + haste action + mobility 10 feet
2 monk +10
2 rogue bonus action
19 total levels
(50+10+10+10)x2x4=640
marathon is 138435 feet
138435/640 = 216 rounds + 195 feet in 217th round which is 21 minutes and 37.828125 seconds at 72.727 miles per hour

The really long distance one requires a lot of sorcerer point spell slot calculations that I don't feel like doing right now.

[UndeadArcanist]

Pigeons are too uncontrollable, I'm not sure why anyone would want to include them.
You can do it with an infinite number of Vengeance Paladins all lined in a row (and with the Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style and Polearm Master)).
The first one moves his movement speed forward and uses Tunnel Fighter. The next one moves forward the same distance (and triggers and OA so the first moves forward again) and then uses Tunnel Fighter. The third moves forward, triggering an OA on the second, who moves forward, triggering another OA on the first; and then uses Tunnel Fighter.
The process continues until they start moving too fast and the friction starts burning off their skin.

Sorry, but according to PHB, the vengeance pally's half-move doesn't provoke AoO.

[Vorpalchicken]

The chance of coming up with 6 1s on 6 d20 rolls is only 1 in 64 million, so it would be likely that a full whiff would come up before FTL is achieved. I recommend advantage on attacks built into this equation, to bring full whiff odds down to 1 in 4 quadrillion.

[Occasional Sage]

Everything about this thread makes me happy.

[AvatarVecna]

The chance of coming up with 6 1s on 6 d20 rolls is only 1 in 64 million, so it would be likely that a full whiff would come up before FTL is achieved. I recommend advantage on attacks built into this equation, to bring full whiff odds down to 1 in 4 quadrillion.

This problem has already been brought up (by me). Firstly, even in 2D movement, we'd be looking at a minimum of 7 pigeons, and more likely 8 (to surround a square in 2D), which puts the odds at 1 in 25 billion. Secondly, doing it in 3D let's us get each square surrounded by 25 pigeons (with one pigeon per 5 ft cube leaving one such cube open for the Paladin to enter the pigeon sphere), gives odds of 1 in 335 nonillion (without advantage) or 1 in 112589 Novemdecillion (with advantage). Lucky rerolls or (even better) being a Halfling makes these odds even better.

[Hrugner]

For a filthier solution to the death dash problem we could make the runner a satire bard and use his tumble since it states he only gets the benefits of dash.

[Saeviomage]

Can't you get infinite speed from two tunnel fighting vengeance paladins?

[RickAllison]

Can't you get infinite speed from two tunnel fighting vengeance paladins?

IIRC, their movement ability doesn't allow for opportunity attacks, so nope.

[AvatarVecna]

IIRC, their movement ability doesn't allow for opportunity attacks, so nope.

Correct. The same ability that gives reaction movement as part of an AoO makes sure that the movement it grants you doesn't trigger AoOs itself.

[hymer]

You also need more turns than you get with that setup. In fact, infinite speed with marilith + vengenace paladin requires infinite turns, unfortunately, in addition to 100% hit ratio.

[Xetheral]

You also need more turns than you get with that setup. In fact, infinite speed with marilith + vengenace paladin requires infinite turns, unfortunately, in addition to 100% hit ratio.

I don't see how... both a tunnel fighter vengeance paladin or a marilith vengeance paladin are either moving on the pigeons' turn or, if the pigeons all ready actions to move, on the Paladin's turn.

And 100% hit ratio is only needed for arbitrary speed... if you have any specific speed in mind it's simple enough to calculate the probability of reaching it given appropriately spaced groups of X pigeons. (And you can raise the probability by raising X, subject only to geometrical constraints.)

[hymer]

I don't see how... both a tunnel fighter vengeance paladin or a marilith vengeance paladin are either moving on the pigeons' turn or, if the pigeons all ready actions to move, on the Paladin's turn.

The setup I was commenting on was this one:


Can't you get infinite speed from two tunnel fighting vengeance paladins?

No pigeons mentioned.


And 100% hit ratio is only needed for arbitrary speed...

I used the word 'infinite'. Same difference.

[Xetheral]

The setup I was commenting on was this one:



No pigeons mentioned.



I used the word 'infinite'. Same difference.

My mistake... I thought you were commenting on the general scenario. And fortunately, FTL speeds are reachable with very reasonable probabilities, so the inability to reach truly arbitrary/infinite speeds doesn't substantially hinder the main method (other requiring absurd numbers of pigeons).

[AvatarVecna]

You also need more turns than you get with that setup. In fact, infinite speed with marilith + vengenace paladin requires infinite turns, unfortunately, in addition to 100% hit ratio.

I was pondering this the other day, and I stumbled upon the answer: rather than somehow arranging for all the pigeons to happen to have the perfect initiative total for the paladin to get to them immediately before they fly away, you just have to convince all the Pigeons to ready their action to Dash away when the Paladin gets adjacent to the (but not before the Paladin gets to them).

[Xetheral]

I was pondering this the other day, and I stumbled upon the answer: rather than somehow arranging for all the pigeons to happen to have the perfect initiative total for the paladin to get to them immediately before they fly away, you just have to convince all the Pigeons to ready their action to Dash away when the Paladin gets adjacent to the (but not before the Paladin gets to them).

Or, if you need more pigeons than will comfortably fit, have them ready actions to use part of their speed to move adjacent to the Paladin and another part to move away.

[AvatarVecna]

Or, if you need more pigeons than will comfortably fit, have them ready actions to use part of their speed to move adjacent to the Paladin and another part to move away.

With advantage to hit and 25 pigeons triggering AoOs at every point, the odds of you missing all 25 pigeons and not getting to move are so astronomically low that using the adverb "astronomically" is not an exaggeration: if I failed once after (400^25) tries, and I was to travel along the entire surface area of a perfectly spherical universe 100 billion lightyears in diameter, and I was covering 100 square feet per movement (5*20), by the time I failed to hit every single pigeon in a particular spot, I will have totally mapped out the surface area of the universe 371,968,775,741 times. And that all happens in one round.

Do I need more accuracy? Eh, only missing on double 1s is as good as it gets. Do I need more pigeons? I guess if we want this paladin mapping out the universe's volume, instead of just its surface area, we'd want more pigeons, but I don't think we'd really need those pigeons.

30 pigeons for every point 20 ft away from every other point. This allows us to map out the 100 billion lightyear diameter spherical universe mentioned above in three dimensions...18 times.

[tieren]

With advantage to hit and 25 pigeons triggering AoOs at every point, the odds of you missing all 25 pigeons and not getting to move are so astronomically low that using the adverb "astronomically" is not an exaggeration: if I failed once after (400^25) tries, and I was to travel along the entire surface area of a perfectly spherical universe 100 billion lightyears in diameter, and I was covering 100 square feet per movement (5*20), by the time I failed to hit every single pigeon in a particular spot, I will have totally mapped out the surface area of the universe 371,968,775,741 times. And that all happens in one round.

Do I need more accuracy? Eh, only missing on double 1s is as good as it gets. Do I need more pigeons? I guess if we want this paladin mapping out the universe's volume, instead of just its surface area, we'd want more pigeons, but I don't think we'd really need those pigeons.

30 pigeons for every point 20 ft away from every other point. This allows us to map out the 100 billion lightyear diameter spherical universe mentioned above in three dimensions...18 times.

I think the physical limit will be the number of pigeons in the universe, I seriously doubt the universe will be able to support the number of living pigeons required to make this work.

Imagine just the droppings alone, let alone what they would be eating.

[MaxWilson]

I believe most reputable foot races frown on jabbing, tripping and blocking as a game plan, although running as a blood sport would be interesting. Particularly in D&D land. :smallbiggrin:

...and now I have one of the optional missions for my next session. :)

[AvatarVecna]

I think the physical limit will be the number of pigeons in the universe, I seriously doubt the universe will be able to support the number of living pigeons required to make this work.

Imagine just the droppings alone, let alone what they would be eating.

Honestly, I'd settle for having enough pigeons to reach any point on the same planet, which would be much more manageable.

[Naanomi]

Honestly, I'd settle for having enough pigeons to reach any point on the same planet, which would be much more manageable.
The elemental planes are infinite, in theory there are an infinite number of pigeons there... Gathering them is the hard part

[krugaan]

The elemental planes are infinite, in theory there are an infinite number of pigeons there... Gathering them is the hard part

They'd also need little pigeon spacesuits to survive in the vacuum of space (or whatever inhospitable elemental plane you're trying to traverse).

[Xetheral]

With advantage to hit and 25 pigeons triggering AoOs at every point, the odds of you missing all 25 pigeons and not getting to move are so astronomically low that using the adverb "astronomically" is not an exaggeration: if I failed once after (400^25) tries, and I was to travel along the entire surface area of a perfectly spherical universe 100 billion lightyears in diameter, and I was covering 100 square feet per movement (5*20), by the time I failed to hit every single pigeon in a particular spot, I will have totally mapped out the surface area of the universe 371,968,775,741 times. And that all happens in one round.

Do I need more accuracy? Eh, only missing on double 1s is as good as it gets. Do I need more pigeons? I guess if we want this paladin mapping out the universe's volume, instead of just its surface area, we'd want more pigeons, but I don't think we'd really need those pigeons.

30 pigeons for every point 20 ft away from every other point. This allows us to map out the 100 billion lightyear diameter spherical universe mentioned above in three dimensions...18 times.

Where is the Paladin getting advanatge from? Because yes, that dramatically decreases the required number of pigeons. :)

[Tanarii]

Because yes, that dramatically decreases the required number of pigeons. :)That's a sentence I never thought I'd see in a D&D discussion. :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

Where is the Paladin getting advanatge from? Because yes, that dramatically decreases the required number of pigeons. :)

Foresight works (we're already assuming Shapechange scrolls and infinite pigeons, so another 9th lvl spell works too), although Greater Invisibility is sufficient: it doesn't last too long, but we only need one round of advantage.

[Xetheral]

Foresight works (we're already assuming Shapechange scrolls and infinite pigeons, so another 9th lvl spell works too), although Greater Invisibility is sufficient: it doesn't last too long, but we only need one round of advantage.

Since the shapechange scroll is unneeded due to tunnel fighter, you don't need any 9th level spells at all, and can do this trick with a 7th level Vengeance Paladin. The loss of advantage hurts, but it's nothing a few (dozen orders of magnitude) more pigeons won't fix.

Then again, if the pigeons are so cooperative anyway, I guess they can just close their eyes to grant the Paladin advantage... problem solved. :)

[AvatarVecna]

Since the shapechange scroll is unneeded due to tunnel fighter, you don't need any 9th level spells at all, and can do this trick with a 7th level Vengeance Paladin. The loss of advantage hurts, but it's nothing a few (dozen orders of magnitude) more pigeons won't fix.

Then again, if the pigeons are so cooperative anyway, I guess they can just close their eyes to grant the Paladin advantage... problem solved. :)

You missed the part of my post that said "Greater Invisibility works too", which is available at that level, so no magnitudes of extra pigeons are necessary.

[Kane0]

Couldn't you just have a pair of tunnel fighting venegeance paladins that tag team? They both start up tunnel fighter, then one moves. The other hits him and moves, which allows the first to hit him and move, so on and so forth.

Then all you have to do is make sure they don't miss or actually hurt each other.

[AvatarVecna]

Couldn't you just have a pair of tunnel fighting venegeance paladins that tag team? They both start up tunnel fighter, then one moves. The other hits him and moves, which allows the first to hit him and move, so on and so forth.

Then all you have to do is make sure they don't miss or actually hurt each other.

This has been suggested multiple times, and remains an unviable solution: the Vengeance Paladin ability that grants a half-move on a successful Attack Of Opportunity does not, itself, trigger Attacks of Opportunity, so just having two Vengeance Paladins with the Tunnel Fighter fighting style would not allow for infinite movement.

[Kane0]

It wouldn't be hard to say you can choose to let it provoke, seeing as we are already saying that reaction/off-turn movement doesn't count towards your allotted movement for a given round/turn.

[AvatarVecna]

It wouldn't be hard to say you can choose to let it provoke, seeing as we are already saying that reaction/off-turn movement doesn't count towards your allotted movement for a given round/turn.

1) Saying you can choose to let your movement provoke AoOs when no such choice is part of the Rules As Written puts this pretty squarely in RAI territory.

2) Using this ability the way it's intended to work allows you to move 1.5 times your speed a round without taking the Dash action; thus, it is by RAW not counting against your normal speed limit.

[Xhosant]

Late to the party, but: Why fill the cosmos with pigeons, when you can fill an arbitrary number of bags of holding to capacity with pigeons plus something that forces them to flee (via Panic?) in the bag's bottom?

Vengeance Tunnel Fighter 'engine' opens the 'gas tank' bags then ends their turn. One of the pigeons wins initiative, runs out and away, and provokes. If the Engine hits, it moves immediately (before the next critter) while if he misses (1 in 399?) the next critter takes its turn, provoking.

Marginally easier than pigeon rails (since you need to fast-load the bag), and should conserve pigeons/improve odds of arrival in that unused pigeons are conserved for the next reload, and a 'complete whiff' only happens on an empty tank. So, loading them with 400 pigeons for every 399 steps should average out the misses, and 'only' doubling that should suffice to make odds of early outage negligible.

If bags of holding begin getting heavy, you can leave new batches of bags of holding along the tracks (again, marginally easier).

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Closed for Necromancy.