LGBTAI+ #58 Infinity 2.0: The Darth Arminius Apology Thread

[TaiLiu]

Me too, but someone needs to do it. Every time some bigot decides to take the chance to flex their arms (on their armchair, from which they're philosophising), someone needs to rise up and explain for those who are listening why they're wrong.
Well, I would disagree with the idea that you're morally obligated to. I am also not convinced that someone will read the thread and go, "Oh, this person is obviously right."

[Jormengand]

Well, I would disagree with the idea that you're morally obligated to. I am also not convinced that someone will read the thread and go, "Oh, this person is obviously right."

Well, maybe not morally obligated - in any instance I don't really believe in moral obligation exactly - but I feel as though I should.

I'd rather someone feel conflicted than that they settle on the hateful answer because there was no-one contesting it.

[TaiLiu]

Well, maybe not morally obligated - in any instance I don't really believe in moral obligation exactly - but I feel as though I should.

I'd rather someone feel conflicted than that they settle on the hateful answer because there was no-one contesting it.
Fair enough. Best of luck, then.

[Jormengand]

Fair enough. Best of luck, then.

Thanks - I'll need it.

We all will.

[Florian]

Thanks - I'll need it.

We all will.

You know why I didn't cheer when in Germany the "Ehe for Alle" (Indiscriminate marriage) was announced? Because I fear that a large chunk of the L/G community now´ll switch over to the conservative side and forget the other discriminated minorities that fought side by side.

It saddens me to write it, but I think trans people will have a bleak time ahead. Pray that I´m erring here.

[The Extinguisher]

You know why I didn't cheer when in Germany the "Ehe for Alle" (Indiscriminate marriage) was announced? Because I fear that a large chunk of the L/G community now´ll switch over to the conservative side and forget the other discriminated minorities that fought side by side.

It saddens me to write it, but I think trans people will have a bleak time ahead. Pray that I´m erring here.

While that does happen, and it's real bad, the bigger issue is when all of the so called stop supporting because "you can marry now what else do you want?"

[Trekkin]

Welp, someone on these very forums just posted in favor of inflicting violence on trans people for the "crime" of not coming out when they think they should.:smallfrown:

So I'm curled up under a blanket now, and so's my significant other, and I...could really use a reminder that there exist people out there who don't think this way.

[Jormengand]

You know why I didn't cheer when in Germany the "Ehe for Alle" (Indiscriminate marriage) was announced? Because I fear that a large chunk of the L/G community now´ll switch over to the conservative side and forget the other discriminated minorities that fought side by side.

It saddens me to write it, but I think trans people will have a bleak time ahead. Pray that I´m erring here.

This is... yeah. Oh, and don't forget that people will start telling LGB people that they're no longer discriminated against because hey, they can get married now!

I don't think you're wrong. Hey, the other thread has devolved into death threats now, you'll be glad to know!

[Florian]

*Grim laugh*

The actual pro side of living with a legacy of mass murder and genocide is first-hand knowledge where all that bigotry can lead to. You don´t know what "kill", "exterminate" or "murder" mean until you have seen it pulled thru with clinical precision.

[Honest Tiefling]

Welp, someone on these very forums just posted in favor of inflicting violence on trans people for the "crime" of not coming out when they think they should.:smallfrown:

So I'm curled up under a blanket now, and so's my significant other, and I...could really use a reminder that there exist people out there who don't think this way.

May not work as a distraction, but I watched my husband play Watchdogs 2, which has a transgendered character as an important side character. I was actually wondering if that was a good portrayal of a transwoman.

[Jormengand]

*Grim laugh*

The actual pro side of living with a legacy of mass murder and genocide is first-hand knowledge where all that bigotry can lead to. You don´t know what "kill", "exterminate" or "murder" mean until you have seen it pulled thru with clinical precision.

The part of it that gets me isn't that they killed so many people - obviously they did, and obviously it's tragic, but it would have been resigned to a sad historical event if it hadn't been for all the things they burned that weren't people - like the entire Institut für Sexualwissenschaft. But they did, and that had effects which still carry on to this day, such as the fact that most of the knowledge of what it meant to be trans and what we should do about it was lost, and had to be rebuilt. We're maybe 20, maybe more years behind where we should be.

[Florian]

Let´s wait and see. Incidentally, I do believe that the Club of Rome is right and that will influence our societies in the next decade.

[TaiLiu]

God, that thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527934-How-Attached-Are-You-To-Your-Gender) is just rotten with textbook transphobia and transmisogyny. I can't even look at it anymore. Those of you who are going into the fray, godspeed.

[Jormengand]

God, that thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527934-How-Attached-Are-You-To-Your-Gender) is just rotten with textbook transphobia and transmisogyny. I can't even look at it anymore. Those of you who are going into the fray, godspeed.

The worst part is where it's framed as though I can't handle people disagreeing with me. Lord knows I can handle people disagreeing with me: I'll maintain that they're wrong but I'll at least be mostly civil. I'm calling them bigots for holding bigoted opinions, not for holding opinions that I happen to disagree with.

[The Extinguisher]

The worst part is where it's framed as though I can't handle people disagreeing with me. Lord knows I can handle people disagreeing with me: I'll maintain that they're wrong but I'll at least be mostly civil. I'm calling them bigots for holding bigoted opinions, not for holding opinions that I happen to disagree with.

And then they turn around and claim that we're twisting their words. Its such a headache.

And now that the whole starwolf thing happened, theres going to be a lot more "this violent person is clearly wrong so i can't be transphobic anywhere here let me misgender you some more" going on

[Trekkin]

And then they turn around and claim that we're twisting their words. Its such a headache.

And now that the whole starwolf thing happened, theres going to be a lot more "this violent person is clearly wrong so i can't be transphobic anywhere here let me misgender you some more" going on

Good grief yes. "See, I disapprove of the same universally horrifying things you do! Where's my free pass?"

Although, um, Jormengand? I think maybe the worst part is the person saying that trans people deserve death for "being deceitful" and the other people low-key agreeing with them. Not saying the willful misunderstandings aren't valid headaches (I've got a few as well) but the murder thing bothers me somewhat more.

[Jormengand]

Good grief yes. "See, I disapprove of the same universally horrifying things you do! Where's my free pass?"

Although, um, Jormengand? I think maybe the worst part is the person saying that trans people deserve death for "being deceitful" and the other people low-key agreeing with them. Not saying the willful misunderstandings aren't valid headaches (I've got a few as well) but the murder thing bothers me somewhat more.

At least the murder thing is obviously wrong and not going to convince people to believe him. It may be a worse position but not a more dangerous one.

[TaiLiu]

See, this is why I recommended not engaging them in the first place. Hell for your mental health.

[Honest Tiefling]

See, this is why I recommended not engaging them in the first place. Hell for your mental health.

Hey now, I have to get onto people's block lists somehow.

[TaiLiu]

Hey now, I have to get onto people's block lists somehow.
Ha! Yeah, I saw that. It's an unorthodox method - most of us get on block lists by arguing about D&D. :smalltongue:

[The Extinguisher]

Hey now, I have to get onto people's block lists somehow.

I rarely block people, tbh. But hurting myself watching and participating in arguments on the internet is something i've been doing for a long time and not something I can stop. I know that if I block someone I'll just be always wondering what did they say can I argue with it

[Honest Tiefling]

I rarely block people, tbh. But hurting myself watching and participating in arguments on the internet is something i've been doing for a long time and not something I can stop. I know that if I block someone I'll just be always wondering what did they say can I argue with it

Just remember to learn when leaving the argument and letting them stew is sometimes the most delicious thing you can do. I need some popcorn.

[The Extinguisher]

Just remember to learn when leaving the argument and letting them stew is sometimes the most delicious thing you can do. I need some popcorn.

Im also pretty bad at that too. I once passed out in the middle of writing a rebuttal (about something dumb, to be fair) cause I couldn't pull myself from the Drama™

[Honest Tiefling]

Im also pretty bad at that too. I once passed out in the middle of writing a rebuttal (about something dumb, to be fair) cause I couldn't pull myself from the Drama™

Hey now, life's too short to not do things you don't enjoy. Remember, it's the internet, a good portion of them are trolls. Get some chocolate.

[The Extinguisher]

Hey now, life's too short to not do things you don't enjoy. Remember, it's the internet, a good portion of them are trolls. Get some chocolate.

Thanks for the good idea I did get some chocolate :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

Apparently, "Refusing to see" people's arguments that trans people being in relationships with people who hate them is obviously entirely the trans person's fault is now a bad thing. Also anyone who you disagree with you're just refusing to see their point.

*Sigh*.

[The Extinguisher]

Apparently, "Refusing to see" people's arguments that trans people being in relationships with people who hate them is obviously entirely the trans person's fault is now a bad thing. Also anyone who you disagree with you're just refusing to see their point.

*Sigh*.

But remember if they disagree with you it's because you're not being rational and youre obviously wrong
:smallsigh:

[Jormengand]

But remember if they disagree with you it's because you're not being rational and youre obviously wrong
:smallsigh:

It's weird how many cis people who've never had to deal with anything trans-related in their lives suddenly become authorities on trans stuff whenever it comes up.

[Jormengand]

But remember if they disagree with you it's because you're not being rational and youre obviously wrong
:smallsigh:

And if you call them a bigot, it's because you're salty, not because they said anything bigoted.

[The Extinguisher]

And if you call them a bigot, it's because you're salty, not because they said anything bigoted.

It turns out that we were the transphobes this whole time! And we would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling cis


(I don't know if that joke tracks at all)

[Jormengand]

It turns out that we were the transphobes this whole time! And we would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling cis


(I don't know if that joke tracks at all)

The sad part is that the joke is so close to what they actually believe.

[The Extinguisher]

it would be funny if it wasn't so terrifying

[Jormengand]

it would be funny if it wasn't so terrifying

And! And! They don't see why saying they want to kill us is terrifying! Which is even more terrifying because they think it's normal!

[Trekkin]

it would be funny if it wasn't so terrifying

Thus the rant about the backfire effect I posted a while back while the thread in question was only kind of terrible: people's first and only impulse on being told they're doing something wrong is to get defensive, nitpick, and prove to themselves how smart they are until everyone else stops trying and they can declare meaningless victory.

And that is why threads generally have a very limited lifespan before it either dies out or suffocates under the weight of all the sanctimonious, empty rhetoric about rhetoric. Normally it's irritating; when it's about something that matters, like this, it is both infuriating and terrifying.

"Yeah, people are dying, but you misspelled a word in paragraph two and that's why quote marks prove I'm not a bigot."

[Jormengand]

"Yeah, people are dying, but you misspelled a word in paragraph two and that's why quote marks prove I'm not a bigot."

I feel as though this really should be some kind of strawman or misrepresentation but then it actually happened.

[The Extinguisher]

It really is like that. And the freaking semantics. I've seen less appeals to dictionaries in debates about language use!

Its so hard because this stuff is so important and these harmful views need to be dealt with. If just one person reads that thread and comes away better then its a job well done, but it's just so exhausting all the time. I would really be arguing about games because at least if I need to stop i don't have to worry that someone will say something that can cause actual violence to me

[Jormengand]

It really is like that. And the freaking semantics. I've seen less appeals to dictionaries in debates about language use!

Its so hard because this stuff is so important and these harmful views need to be dealt with. If just one person reads that thread and comes away better then its a job well done, but it's just so exhausting all the time. I would really be arguing about games because at least if I need to stop i don't have to worry that someone will say something that can cause actual violence to me

Don't be silly! Nothing that happens on an internet forum has any bearing in reality! Also the Alt-Right don't exist!

[YossarianLives]

God, that thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527934-How-Attached-Are-You-To-Your-Gender) is just rotten with textbook transphobia and transmisogyny. I can't even look at it anymore. Those of you who are going into the fray, godspeed.**** me, that thread is horrifying. Like, I can't even believe it. I thought this forum was reasonably progressive.

[Jormengand]

**** me, that thread is horrifying. Like, I can't even believe it. I thought this forum was reasonably progressive.

I was disillusioned of that fairly early on.

[Trekkin]

**** me, that thread is horrifying. Like, I can't even believe it. I thought this forum was reasonably progressive.

It used to be more so. I'm not sure when it happened, but it's really gone downhill. I'm seriously considering leaving, truth be told; there's only so many times you can report a post for literally advocating violence or intolerance, see nothing done, and shrug.

[Jormengand]

It used to be more so. I'm not sure when it happened, but it's really gone downhill. I'm seriously considering leaving, truth be told; there's only so many times you can report a post for literally advocating violence or intolerance, see nothing done, and shrug.

To be honest, "Person advocating violence against trans people" isn't really original enough to faze me any more.

[Comrade]

**** me, that thread is horrifying. Like, I can't even believe it. I thought this forum was reasonably progressive.

It is reasonably progressive, fortunately.

[Jormengand]

It is reasonably progressive, fortunately.

Or, perhaps, it's unfortunate that this is what passes for progressive.

[Comrade]

That depends on one's outlook on progressivism. But I've been able to talk about my LGBT status on this forum-- not just in this thread, on this forum as a whole-- and have never encountered any issues, never been subjected to any hostility, never been insulted or in the least fashion mocked because of it. People have generally proven pretty accepting, so aye, I do think the forum in general leans progressive.

[Asmodean_]

Hey, the other thread has devolved into death threats now, you'll be glad to know!

http://i.imgur.com/kBDC2fo.png

... no thanks i value both my time and my sanity


It's weird how many cis people who've never had to deal with anything trans-related in their lives suddenly become authorities on trans stuff whenever it comes up.

I think the general attitude really should be "I have exactly zero experience about this kinda stuff, you probably know more about your personal life than I do." I know that's the position I always use, but there are always the type of people that think everyone's also like them.


it would be funny if it wasn't so terrifying

I tend to find reassurance in that most of these people probably wouldn't have the guts to actually commit murder and have then resorted to shouting at the internet. Sticks and stones may break my bones but people arguing on the internet probably won't.


While that does happen, and it's real bad, the bigger issue is when all of the so called stop supporting because "you can marry now what else do you want?"

Ka-this.
There are a lot of parallels currently going around regarding sexism and racism, mostly in that there are a lot of people going around saying "hey you're not discriminated against there are laws against doing that!"

Ah yes sorry I forgot literally everybody was lawful good and always follows every law

[Florian]

I´m always perplexed by the kind of self-righteous attitude that shows up on certain topics.
I mean, it´s mid-2017 and people still act like diversity is not a thing and the only relevant thing on the entire planet is the "traditional" binary relationship, everything else is hate- and murder-worthy.

Dunno where this people draw the line on what they see as "deception". Recently, I tried to flirt with a girl showing every sign of being attracted to me. Turned out she wears her wedding ring on a chain, so she urned me down. Was I deceived? Met a nice hippie on a vegan fair, which led into a one night stand. Turns out she´s a naturalist and didn't´t shave anywhere. Was I deceived? Had a hot flirt with someone at an industry fair. Turns out she´s US American as well as a Trump voter. Was I deceived?
Should I take up my gun and have bloody revenge for all that deception?

I always get the feeling that it´s mainly people not being able to cope with the fact that the world isn´t as simple as it used to be "back in the days", when everyone was still locked in their closet.

[Lissou]

So, I'm a bit late to the party (Starwulf apologized and reported themself) but I joined the other thread too. Wish me luck for my mental health (although, being cis by default I will probably be less affected by... well, everything going on in there).

I'm a bit surprised by some of what's going on, but it's possible the whole thing will end up helping people. I know I've been wrong in threads and been convinced by other people of the error of my ways.

[WarKitty]

I'll probably wade through it when I wake up a little more. Right now it's 6:35 in the morning and my body is still not quite happy about switching to this shift.

[Coidzor]

I´m always perplexed by the kind of self-righteous attitude that shows up on certain topics.

To be fair, self-righteousness is practically a given in online arguments.

Self-righteousness also begets self-righteousness. If it weren't for the self-righteousness of certain parties, the thread in question would have petered out after Bohandas lost interest in their "I'm a sci-fi villain who wants to make all humans into grey lumps of meat with no sense of self" schtick well before subsequent self-righteousnesses would have manifested.

You, yourself, are also falling prey to it.

[Astrella]

I'm gonna pass on that thread; with stress about upcoming surgery my head's already stuffed with internalized transphobia and terf-y crap.

(Also I wish my aunt and uncle would at least try to call me she... it's been 4 years. :/ )

[Merellis]

Is it bad that I didn't really get to do much for pride month?

Work's been kicking me in the rear, and I'm just feeling ashamed that I didn't really go out to any of it. =/

[WarKitty]

I'm gonna pass on that thread; with stress about upcoming surgery my head's already stuffed with internalized transphobia and terf-y crap.

(Also I wish my aunt and uncle would at least try to call me she... it's been 4 years. :/ )

Pretty sure the minute a mod gets on and actually looks at that thread it's getting locked.

[Jormengand]

Pretty sure the minute a mod gets on and actually looks at that thread it's getting locked.

Historically speaking, I wouldn't bet on it.

[Asmodean_]

Meanwhile, in Badjokeistan Badpunistan:

http://i.imgur.com/8lkR141.jpg

[Comrade]

Magnificent.

[ArlEammon]

I still haven't decided if I'm gay or bi or not, I'm 33.

[Shamash]

I still haven't decided if I'm gay or bi or not, I'm 33.

Well, sexuality can be fluid. You don't NEED to be anything.

[Recherché]

I still haven't decided if I'm gay or bi or not, I'm 33.

I spent years trying to force myself to act lesbian that I regret. IMHO better yo admit you're unsure than to try and make yourself fit into a cubby hole that isn't you.

[Lycunadari]

Nice little story to lighten the mood:

I bought new shoes last week, and they're kinda boring (but they were cheap, and I have weird feet which makes finding fitting shoes hard). So today I ordered rainbow shoelaces for them to make them prettier, and told my mom about it. Her reaction: "Rainbow shoelaces? ...oh, rainbow shoelaces! *knowing look*" :smallbiggrin:

Also, my sister sent me a picture of my parents' house on Friday:
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/cylanarid/20170630_181713_zpslsar5tfe.jpg

Apparently my sister ordered the flag as soon as it was clear there would be the vote on marriage equality on Friday, and it arrived just in time. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

I am very, very, very close to hurting myself and could use some hugs.

[2D8HP]

I am very, very, very close to hurting myself and could use some hugs.


:frown:

Please don't hurt yourself.

Here's a *hug*

[WarKitty]

I am very, very, very close to hurting myself and could use some hugs.

*hugs*

I might also recommend staying out of THAT thread for a while...

[Jormengand]

*hugs*

I might also recommend staying out of THAT thread for a while...

I can't manage it. Every time someone makes another post basically saying that it's all right to advocate our death or that we're all rapists I just can't let it go unchallenged.

[The Extinguisher]

I can't manage it. Every time someone makes another post basically saying that it's all right to advocate our death or that we're all rapists I just can't let it go unchallenged.

*heres a hug*

you're doing some pretty important work

[Jormengand]

*heres a hug*

you're doing some pretty important work

And getting whaled on by multiple people for doing so. I really want to step away but I can't.

[2D8HP]

I can't manage it. Every time someone makes another post basically saying that it's all right to advocate our death or that we're all rapists I just can't let it go unchallenged.


For whatever it's worth (probably nothing), as someone who posted to that thread early on, and likes this Forum, I'm really saddened.

I may just be dropping tears into an ocean (I really do have wet eyes right now), but here's another *hug*

Be well.

(And you are very welcome to call me out on my idiocy).

[Trekkin]

And getting whaled on by multiple people for doing so. I really want to step away but I can't.

...turns out I can't either, but neither can I keep watching the "let's all be the bigger person" crowd continue to try to big themselves up by imagining some middle ground between hatred and tolerance, or tell us we're wrong for not condoning violence because we can't argue to their satisfaction.

Keep on fighting as long as you want to, and for what little it's worth coming from me of all people, here's another hug.

[The Extinguisher]

Finally :smallsigh:

[Shamash]

It's done -__-

[Lentrax]

I am very, very, very close to hurting myself and could use some hugs.

*hugs.*

Thank you for fighting, Jor. From all of us who either can't or won't.

[TaiLiu]

Oh, thank goodness. A few of you were throwing your energy and psychic health into that cesspool of transmisogyny, and I was getting concerned.

[AvatarVecna]

*hugs everybody*

*returns to lurking*

[Lissou]

*hugs*

It looks like the one post I made was completely ignored, and then the thread went on to spout more nonesense at an incredible pace. You need all the hugs you can get, Jor.

[Florian]

You, yourself, are also falling prey to it.

Nah, not really. It´s just strong opinion and a confrontational stance. See, I´m living in the former socialist part of Germany, which was pretty advanced on the topic of "equal rights" and "equality" across the board when it comes to sexes, gender and individual life choices. Sadly, a lot of that got lost after the reunification. So, with actual knowledge that it can work in praxis and how that´ll work out, it´s hard not to react harsh to people discounting certain things as pure theory that never will or never should work.

To give you an example: In basic political education, we learned three interconnected things.
- "All human beings are equal"
- Democracy is all about building power blocks and gaining the majority vote.
- Now the hard to accept part: The flaw of democracy is two-fold. No political party should ever raise to total power, forcing the opposition into a weak position, minorities exist and they lack the power to influence the system, hence special care has to be taken to protect the minorities from the masses.

What get´s me aggressive is the line of argument in the vain of: "Well, only X% of people are Y...", or "Well, the majority vote is clear..." and my favorite "Why should the tail wag the dog?".

[Asmodean_]

"Thread locked for review"

I mean I'm not ****ing surprised.

[WarKitty]

"Thread locked for review"

I mean I'm not ****ing surprised.

I think I reported with a message something like "I can't even begin to report everything wrong here."

[Lettuce]

Hugs to everybody who wants them (and Jor in particular, please please don't hurt yourself) from a random internet stranger who just read through the referenced thread with increasing sickness and horror. On behalf of humans who still have their humanity, I'm just so sorry that this was a thing that happened. I don't really have words, so just... *more hugs*

You are beautiful, wonderful people, and for whatever it's worth-- I care about you.

*still more hugs*

[Jormengand]

"Thread locked for review"

I mean I'm not ****ing surprised.

I am. Normally insinuations of violence against trans people elicit a sort of "Meh" noise from mods. I bet that nothing comes of it apart from the thread being locked.

[Trekkin]

Oh, thank goodness. A few of you were throwing your energy and psychic health into that cesspool of transmisogyny, and I was getting concerned.

The migraine that thread gave me is only now starting to subside. That was a special kind of awful, that was.


I think I reported with a message something like "I can't even begin to report everything wrong here."

I went with "Is this what we are now? Is this what we want to be?"

[Asmodean_]

No no no but don't you see?????

Like if someone doesn't write?? like? a fact file????? about everything they are and do??????

then is?? worthy of death penalty????

right??????

disclaimer: i did not read that thread

[EternalMelon]

I'm torn. On one hand, I think what Jor and others did to protect our position/us was amazing. Speaking out against some of the things said there is commendable and I wish I could have helped. On the other hand, from the skimming I did and the comments in this thread it seems like it was a hurtful and damaging place to be in. Which is part of why I couldn't participate. So I feel kinda scummy praising and thanking someone when they got hurt for their actions. On the other hand, I don't really want to tell someone what they can or can't do vis a vie mental health. I guess all I can do is offer hugs and thanks and I don't know... A reminder to take care of yourselves? Please?

Lighter Topic:

I'm currently visiting friends and family after being back from Germany* (Grats on Gay Marriage btw!) and am going to go shopping for new clothes with my friends soon. My friends are great and gay and super supportive... but uhhh... I kinda have a crush on one of them. Not big enough to cause problems with our friendship but enough that I get occasional pangs of jealousy, feelings, and awkwardness. Hes just so nice and accommodating and open and he doesn't mind the physical contact I have with him which is where most of my feelings and awkwardness come from. And hes tall and cute and Ace too so I guess hes easy to fantasies a relationship with him because some of the problems I might have with being with someone I don't have to worry about. The problem is I'm not very far on my transitioning path and am not ready for a relationship at all so its like staring at something I want but can't have but get to try out some times in small bursts. Also hes a really good friend and I don't want to ruin that friendship... bleh... Just wanted to vent I guess.

*Which was okay... My parents try to be supportive but they mess up sometimes. I spent the whole month in boymode because... I dunno.... I didn't want to make them uncomfortable and I'm still pre-everything and I don't think I could stand even the slightest criticism on my passing right now. Its a sore subject.

[Zen]

Hey guys, about "That Thread", I just want to thank all you guys who were patient and answered my questions.

I was completely unaware of the struggles and hardships trans people have to endure, and I apologize for that.

That thread served to open my eyes about all the hatred and suffering you guys have to deal but also the positive aspects such as the confederacy, the devotion to this cause and the hope to see a better tomorrow.

I did some digging on the internet and that completely shattered my previous misconceptions about trans people, I apologize for the rude things I said and posted.

If anything that tread served to teach me how trans people really are, that many animals are gay and I'm a cis, white and Christian guy and that grants me a lot of privileges in life even though I don't realize and don't feel privileged.

I’m not expressing myself the way I wanted and this isn’t really I had in mind but basically what I want to say is thank you for opening my eyes, your work wasn’t pointless.

[Astrella]

*waves at Zen*


I'm torn. On one hand, I think what Jor and others did to protect our position/us was amazing. Speaking out against some of the things said there is commendable and I wish I could have helped. On the other hand, from the skimming I did and the comments in this thread it seems like it was a hurtful and damaging place to be in. Which is part of why I couldn't participate. So I feel kinda scummy praising and thanking someone when they got hurt for their actions. On the other hand, I don't really want to tell someone what they can or can't do vis a vie mental health. I guess all I can do is offer hugs and thanks and I don't know... A reminder to take care of yourselves? Please?

You don't have any obligation to like, put yourself out there to bigotry.

About the other thing; you could always just, like, do it gradually? Start wearing earrings or another accessory you like, start wearing women's t-shirts and such, might be easier on yourself as well. Just going full out presenting straight away is stressful and scary. I did it very gradually myself as well.

[lio45]

That depends on one's outlook on progressivism. But I've been able to talk about my LGBT status on this forum-- not just in this thread, on this forum as a whole-- and have never encountered any issues, never been subjected to any hostility, never been insulted or in the least fashion mocked because of it. People have generally proven pretty accepting, so aye, I do think the forum in general leans progressive.

Yeah, this forum is certainly a progressive and very accepting discussion platform. As you have been able to witness yourself as a trans person who's never been harassed or mocked in any way in threads like that now-closed one or the Relationships one.

The only one person who actually was honest enough to confess they might turn violent in that other thread admitted he had totally erred there, so it's a gross misrepresentation of reality (actually this doesn't even begin to start being an understatement) to claim that a bunch of GitP forumers actually want to kill trans people. Now since I don't want to intrude any more into this little shielded-from-reality bubble that some of you have decided they want to live in, I'll end it there, and given that this thread isn't invisible, I'm hoping everybody from the other thread will all have the good sense to leave it to you guys so you can do what you want without external input of forumers who don't know each other but can chime in with their own samples of their views of their own sexuality. (Honestly, they probably all will, 'cause no one is here to harass others. I figured one post would be acceptable, but have no fears, I'll stop there unless someone insists.)

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, this forum is certainly a progressive and very accepting discussion platform. As you have been able to witness yourself as a trans person who's never been harassed or mocked in any way in threads like that now-closed one or the Relationships one.

The only one person who actually was honest enough to confess they might turn violent in that other thread admitted he had totally erred there, so it's a gross misrepresentation of reality (actually this doesn't even begin to start being an understatement) to claim that a bunch of GitP forumers actually want to kill trans people.

Not the only one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22154677&postcount=914)


However, I'm famous for my clemency so I would probably manage to refrain from killing you at that point. (Provided there aren't lethal weapons available within my grasp then and there, of course.)
:P

Give Starwulf credit, at least he never hid behind the "I was just kidding" excuse.

[Jormengand]

'cause no one is here to harass others.

No, that's exactly why you're here. This is meant to be a support thread. We don't need you here telling trans people they're living in fantasy land. Stop it.

[lio45]

Not the only one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22154677&postcount=914)



Give Starwulf credit, at least he never hid behind the "I was just kidding" excuse.

You really really badly need to buy yourself a sarcasm detector. FYI it seemed you missed all the other posts (many of them) in which I explained I'd never ever see it as a reason to turn violent in the slightest. Over a couple days, and never contracticting myself. So you're acting in bad faith there. Also, I'm still in touch with a majority of my ex-gfs, and as I pointed out to Comrade answering her question, I'd actually be fine with any of them now coming out as trans. The thought of being pissed off a posteriori for that doesn't feel natural at all, let alone the need to find them to harm them.

Jorm, I will comply with your wishes and refrain from engaging you and others, but after 10 years as a forum participant here I think I have the right to at least explain myself when utterly wrongly accused of having murderous intentions.

[Jormengand]

You really really badly need to buy yourself a sarcasm detector.

Ah yes, "I was being sarcastic", the ultimate non-defense. The sad part is the part where you think joking about killing trans people is okay either.

And no, when a mod locks a thread that usually means you should stop talking about the topic for a duration, not come over here and throw accusations of being delusional at trans folk.

[Comrade]

And no, when a mod locks a thread that usually means you should stop talking about the topic for a duration, not come over here and throw accusations of being delusional at trans folk.

AvatarVecna singled his post out, he had a right to respond to an implicit claim that he's willing to murder transgender people or something.

[lio45]

Ah yes, "I was being sarcastic", the ultimate non-defense. The sad part is the part where you think joking about killing trans people is okay either.

And no, when a mod locks a thread that usually means you should stop talking about the topic for a duration, not come over here and throw accusations of being delusional at trans folk.

I'm fine with stopping talking about the topic for a while, but given that you guys are expressly discussing me, I think I have the right to set the record straight.

How would you feel if a bunch of GitPers were currently discussing you in a separate thread that's supposed to be off-limits for you to post in?

[Jormengand]

AvatarVecna singled his post out, he had a right to respond to an implicit claim that he's willing to murder transgender people or something.

He said himself that he was willing to! You can't just say that and hide behind "I was being sarcastic" when someone calls you out on it!

And he should never have been posting about it in this thread in the first place, so AV shouldn't have had a chance to respond to him!

[Comrade]

He said himself that he was willing to! You can't just say that and hide behind "I was being sarcastic" when someone calls you out on it!

Except he was being sarcastic. You can't just decide he wasn't; it was pretty obviously a joke, especially given that he had in no uncertain terms disavowed violence of any kind in that circumstance previously. Whether or not you think it should have been made, that's what it was. And anyway, people were continuing to post about that thread here after it was closed and referring in a negative light to posters in that thread, so it doesn't seem very accurate to accuse lio45 of bringing it up out of nowhere (although accusing lio45 of things he didn't say or do does seem to be in vogue right now...)

[Jormengand]

If you or he or anyone else wants to defend "Joking" about killing people, then go to Stormfront and do it, not this support thread!

[JusticeZero]

On a slightly less dramatic note, I feel like I need to get a different avatar now but I have NO IDEA what to ask for. I tried the introspection process and I have holes. It triggers a whole process of introspection that I don't feel like I have the answers for yet.

The original one was:
Male, because I presented that way and was pretty sure that wanting not to was an aspect of being broken
Orc, first because I am Native, so I am not one of the typical high civilization races, second because orcs are strong, huge, fearful, and monstrous like I was. They are almost totally unsuitable for..
Psion, because I was an academic at the time. I prided myself on keeping everything mental and focused and barely even in my body.

Well, now, most of that is totally changed around. I'm a girl, I pass, everything is changed over. I am not an academic now, I am unemployed. I want to teach, but maybe some day it will be safe to do that again. I grew up here, and I didn't change my distinctive name. I can't go stealth. Teaching is very political, and I feel like I would lose my job quickly.
So.. I don't feel like I have a "class", and the "race" might not be a perfect fit anymore. I'm not strong anymore, and the cis women cousins I have tower over me. It's really just another aspect of helpless stumbling in my life right now. I'm not completely sure how to address it.

I suppose I am moving more towards Charisma type things these days, and more tribal stuff. I want to write but I don't know what. It really just doesn't quite tell me what to be. Kind of an identity crisis, and I wish I knew how to tell people who I am these days.

[lio45]

He said himself that he was willing to! You can't just say that and hide behind "I was being sarcastic" when someone calls you out on it!

And he should never have been posting about it in this thread in the first place, so AV shouldn't have had a chance to respond to him!

You've been thoroughly misusing this bit of my post which was obviously dripping with sarcasm (see the smiley + the total contradiction with all my other posts on the subject where I have always consistently and coherently pointed out I would never ever dream of becoming violent over something like that) for several pages now. It's my turn now to demand "stop it".

Take the sum of my posts if you want to establish what I'm "willing to do". There are several posts of mine anterior to that one that actually explain what I'd do. It's a coherent whole, except with ONE massive data outlier that's too ridiculous to be credible and is followed by a smiley.

[Comrade]

If you or he or anyone else wants to defend "Joking" about killing people, then go to Stormfront and do it, not this support thread!

I didn't defend it, I even stated in the thread itself that I thought it was in poor taste. I'm pointing out that it was a joke and it's therefore disingenuous to claim otherwise, which I don't think merits an invitation to a Nazi website, personally. I'm going to drop the subject there.

[Razade]

AvatarVecna singled his post out, he had a right to respond to an implicit claim that he's willing to murder transgender people or something.

I think the mis-characterizations overall gives people the right to defend themselves. They're not going to get a particularly fair trial of their peers here in this thread and it's not the place to air it honestly. It's rather gauche however to, after a thread is locked, come to another thread you know you're safe and protected in to impinge others with the knowledge that they have no ability to defend themselves. They've been deemed guilty well before they were even aware they were being discussed and literally have no ability to defend themselves here without getting turned on.

S'bad look tovarish.

[Lentrax]

On "that" thread:

Please stop talking about it. It was locked. Actions will or will not be taken ( I am not a mod, so have no official capacity to say). But talking about it here will only serve to get us locked.

So, that said, even if you feel the need to clarify or apologize... Please don't do it here.

[Comrade]

On "that" thread:

Please stop talking about it. It was locked. Actions will or will not be taken ( I am a mod, so have no official capacity to say). But talking about it here will only serve to get us locked.

So, that said, even if you feel the need to clarify or apologize... Please don't do it here.

Aye, this is the best course at this point.

[Nemirthel]

On "that" thread:

Please stop talking about it. It was locked. Actions will or will not be taken ( I am a mod, so have no official capacity to say). But talking about it here will only serve to get us locked.

So, that said, even if you feel the need to clarify or apologize... Please don't do it here.

I think you mean "I am NOT a mod." But yeah, talking about that thread here is just going to get this thread locked too (in fact, it's specifically mentioned in the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)).

[Lentrax]

I think you mean "I am NOT a mod." But yeah, talking about that thread here is just going to get this thread locked too (in fact, it's specifically mentioned in the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)).

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, and edited the word not in to my post.

[TaiLiu]

The migraine that thread gave me is only now starting to subside. That was a special kind of awful, that was.
Oh, no - that was transmisogyny straight out of the goddamn textbook. That it was not a special kind of awful is what is most disturbing.

I'm torn. On one hand, I think what Jor and others did to protect our position/us was amazing. Speaking out against some of the things said there is commendable and I wish I could have helped. On the other hand, from the skimming I did and the comments in this thread it seems like it was a hurtful and damaging place to be in. Which is part of why I couldn't participate. So I feel kinda scummy praising and thanking someone when they got hurt for their actions. On the other hand, I don't really want to tell someone what they can or can't do vis a vie mental health. I guess all I can do is offer hugs and thanks and I don't know... A reminder to take care of yourselves? Please?
Yeah, basically. My fellow trans and queer comrades are allowed to do whatever they want, but it also felt like they were throwing themselves into a fire.

On a slightly less dramatic note, I feel like I need to get a different avatar now but I have NO IDEA what to ask for. I tried the introspection process and I have holes. It triggers a whole process of introspection that I don't feel like I have the answers for yet. [...] Kind of an identity crisis, and I wish I knew how to tell people who I am these days.
I think orc still works, personally - you're still Native, and the assumed monstrosity of trans women is a typical component of transmisogyny.

[Coidzor]

No, that's exactly why you're here. This is meant to be a support thread. We don't need you here telling trans people they're living in fantasy land. Stop it.

Exactly, so making the topic of this thread all about that other thread was not the best decision to make.


And no, when a mod locks a thread that usually means you should stop talking about the topic for a duration, not come over here and throw accusations of being delusional at trans folk.

You realize that you've been doing exactly that, right? And that's almost certainly the only reason why lio45 even felt compelled to post in this thread, right?


AvatarVecna singled his post out, he had a right to respond to an implicit claim that he's willing to murder transgender people or something.

That or we all report it, link the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), and move on with our lives.

One of the two.


**Edit**: Since apparently I have to set the record straight, lest I stand myself accused of being the one who brought up the topic, here's a reminder of your role in starting the discussing and continuing it, Jormengand.

On July 1st at 10:08 AM EST, Jormengand was the first person to reference the other thread in this thread.

Jormengand then continued to make 22 more posts about the other thread in this one, and there are stretches where every other post is a post by Jormengand discussing the other thread with others, to the point where for several pages it was the sole topic of this thread.

All of this before lio45 posted in this thread, showing that, no, it was not brought up in response to lio45's post.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22150655&postcount=1020

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22150749&postcount=1022

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22150770&postcount=1024

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22150908&postcount=1026

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22150987&postcount=1028

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22151638&postcount=1032

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22151918&postcount=1038

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152019&postcount=1041

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152481&postcount=1050

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152531&postcount=1052

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152559&postcount=1053

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152601&postcount=1055

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152621&postcount=1057

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152640&postcount=1059

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152665&postcount=1061

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152738&postcount=1063

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152753&postcount=1065

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22152827&postcount=1067

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22153670&postcount=1077

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22154751&postcount=1084

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22154855&postcount=1087

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22154876&postcount=1089

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22156272&postcount=1102


Sometimes I forget how much people hate trans people for the crime of existing. Sometimes I read discussions of gender on the internet. Never at the same time, though.


True, but if one person, one person, reads that thread and sees what I've written and their trans lover comes out, and if that person who has read the thread decides that maybe, just maybe, they haven't been decieved, and if that one person doesn't flip out and hurt their lover, then I've done something worthwhile. It isn't about the other posters. It never was.


Me too, but someone needs to do it. Every time some bigot decides to take the chance to flex their arms (on their armchair, from which they're philosophising), someone needs to rise up and explain for those who are listening why they're wrong.


Well, maybe not morally obligated - in any instance I don't really believe in moral obligation exactly - but I feel as though I should.

I'd rather someone feel conflicted than that they settle on the hateful answer because there was no-one contesting it.


Thanks - I'll need it.

We all will.


This is... yeah. Oh, and don't forget that people will start telling LGB people that they're no longer discriminated against because hey, they can get married now!

I don't think you're wrong. Hey, the other thread has devolved into death threats now, you'll be glad to know!


The worst part is where it's framed as though I can't handle people disagreeing with me. Lord knows I can handle people disagreeing with me: I'll maintain that they're wrong but I'll at least be mostly civil. I'm calling them bigots for holding bigoted opinions, not for holding opinions that I happen to disagree with.


At least the murder thing is obviously wrong and not going to convince people to believe him. It may be a worse position but not a more dangerous one.


Apparently, "Refusing to see" people's arguments that trans people being in relationships with people who hate them is obviously entirely the trans person's fault is now a bad thing. Also anyone who you disagree with you're just refusing to see their point.

*Sigh*.


It's weird how many cis people who've never had to deal with anything trans-related in their lives suddenly become authorities on trans stuff whenever it comes up.


And if you call them a bigot, it's because you're salty, not because they said anything bigoted.


The sad part is that the joke is so close to what they actually believe.


And! And! They don't see why saying they want to kill us is terrifying! Which is even more terrifying because they think it's normal!


I feel as though this really should be some kind of strawman or misrepresentation but then it actually happened.


Don't be silly! Nothing that happens on an internet forum has any bearing in reality! Also the Alt-Right don't exist!


I was disillusioned of that fairly early on.


To be honest, "Person advocating violence against trans people" isn't really original enough to faze me any more.


Or, perhaps, it's unfortunate that this is what passes for progressive.


Historically speaking, I wouldn't bet on it.


I am very, very, very close to hurting myself and could use some hugs.


I can't manage it. Every time someone makes another post basically saying that it's all right to advocate our death or that we're all rapists I just can't let it go unchallenged.


And getting whaled on by multiple people for doing so. I really want to step away but I can't.


I am. Normally insinuations of violence against trans people elicit a sort of "Meh" noise from mods. I bet that nothing comes of it apart from the thread being locked.

[Jormengand]

You realize that you've been doing exactly that, right? And that's almost certainly the only reason why lio45 even felt compelled to post in this thread, right?

Wait, I was throwing accusations of being delusional at trans folk? I suppose you have something to back up that exceptionally bold statement?

[Heliomance]

Can we not? That other thread was a spectacular shower of manure, and I only skimmed a few pages of it. Can it not be brought over here, please? Like, at all, by anyone?

[Lentrax]

So, again...


On "that" thread:

Please stop talking about it. It was locked. Actions will or will not be taken ( I am not a mod, so have no official capacity to say). But talking about it here will only serve to get us locked.

So, that said, even if you feel the need to clarify or apologize... Please don't do it here.

[The Succubus]

Remember when this thread was about supporting other people, celebrating milestones in self-awareness re: gender/sexuality and occasional lighthearted humour? They were good times.


https://68.media.tumblr.com/3f933b7f246488ce29b99dad0aba8978/tumblr_ok5h5iAXUl1r1cog6o1_400.gif

[WarKitty]

http://images.scribblelive.com/2015/8/13/23f3a235-856f-41b1-a105-d5ae5c60133a_1000.jpg

[Thufir]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17457677_10158362636970655_9164899521746311446_n.j pg?oh=66ffecf153f17e4a83ff5308db936e39&oe=5A0D275D

[lio45]

Can we not? That other thread was a spectacular shower of manure, and I only skimmed a few pages of it. Can it not be brought over here, please? Like, at all, by anyone?

FYI, you're a few pages late telling that to Jormengand. Works for me, though.

[Jormengand]

FYI, you're a few pages late telling that to Jormengand. Works for me, though.

Can you quit harassing me? Like, get outta here with following me to a thread where I've asked people for help because you've made me feel like hurting myself, and then complaining at me for "Being critical" of you or somesuch. Just stop it. If you don't like the fact that I'm seeking SUPPORT from a SUPPORT thread then I don't know what to say to you. I don't know what your purpose in all this is, but as far as I'm concerned, you've achieved it.

You don't need to keep sniping at people on your way out.

[Shamash]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17457677_10158362636970655_9164899521746311446_n.j pg?oh=66ffecf153f17e4a83ff5308db936e39&oe=5A0D275D

That's so cute :D

[ArlEammon]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17457677_10158362636970655_9164899521746311446_n.j pg?oh=66ffecf153f17e4a83ff5308db936e39&oe=5A0D275D

http://i.imgur.com/LYSTJri.png (http://imgur.com/LYSTJri)

[lio45]

Can you quit harassing me?

Sure, if you quit mischaracterising and vilifying me. I've even been patient enough to let you do that for a while in here without a peep. So, we both agree to stop?




I don't know what your purpose in all this is, but as far as I'm concerned, you've achieved it.

If by "this" you mean my taking part in such relationships/gender discussions in an online community I've been a member of for a decade and counting, know that part of the purpose is actually helping others. Sometimes, just because you don't want to hear something doesn't mean you shouldn't. There's actually at least two people among the regulars of this very thread to which I recall having devoted some of my spare time in the past thinking about their problems and coming up with my own imperfect mortal's advice based on my own experience of life and relationships. I wouldn't be doing such things if I were a troll out to needlessly bother people for fun.

[Jormengand]

Just go. You're not helping anyone, you never were, and I think you know it, and choose to continue for that exact reason. This is a support thread, and up until you entered it it was doing a mostly good job of supporting me. No, I won't apologise for "Vilifying" you as a response to you, whether joking or otherwise, saying that you would kill people like me.

If you don't want to hurt people, the best thing you can do is leave and let the door hit you as hard as you like on the way outta my face.

[Rain Dragon]

Cute animals of rainbows and hugs brightened my day.
Thanks. =)

[Trekkin]

{image}

I don't get it. What's the joke?

[Shamash]

I don't get it. What's the joke?

Well, his name is apocalypse, and that was like a curtness apocalypse ^_^

I think that was the joke.

[ArlEammon]

Well, his name is apocalypse, and that was like an curtness apocalypse ^_^

I think that was the joke.

Yep. That's the joke.

[lio45]

You're not helping anyone, you never were, and I think you know it

How can you presume to know that?

[Shamash]

How I feel most of the time:
http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/97/92/499859711316bd99c662cc7c987e3614.jpg

[Jormengand]

How can you presume to know that?

Educated guesses. For example, the fact that you keep posting in this support thread long after it's been revealed that you're being the exact opposite of helpful? If you're aware of the fact that you're just making it impossible for me to seek support by your continued presence, you have to own that if you continue doing so. You want to make things worse by continuing to take away the one place on this forum where I can actually get support and help? If not, then you should stop coming here and hounding me.

You can't say you're trying to help when you're persisting in an action which does the opposite. You want to hurt me, you're welcome, but you should say that's what you don't mind.

[Shamash]

http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/88/14/0b36511d8986423cccb1dcf735fe8bbe.jpg
http://www.collegehumor.com/images/download.jpg
http://2.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/53/19/0e50a82bc1ebf448b49c76e57ae17e44.jpg

[ArlEammon]

I could become suicidal if I can't get better help for my mental health.

[Comrade]

Lio45, Jormengand, can't you both just agree not to talk to or about each other and leave it there?

[Jormengand]

Lio45, Jormengand, can't you both just agree not to talk to or about each other and leave it there?

I would like to continue talking in this thread, without him. That is why I am asking him, as someone who is clearly detrimental to people's support in this thread and has no need for support from this thread, to leave. Then I will resume asking for support. It's not so much that I don't want him to talk to me, as I don't want him to sit here making snide remarks at all while I seek support. You'll notice I already had stopped talking to him when he chose to take another snipe at me, presumably because I'd stopped responding to him directly.

[ArlEammon]

I’m on the same boat.

Is it just me or the world is getting worst? I just posted about my problems and no one cared the few who did said that I shouldn’t have looked at the YouTube hateful comments.

But just look at what happen at this very forum? I don’t look so silly now, do I? Hate is everywhere, we can't escape, it was always there but it was just using camouflage, now for some reason it decided it didn't care anymore.

What’s the point on keep on living? Why not just end it now?

You don't end it now because the way you feel doesn't navigate where you're going. You don't know your own fate and destiny. Right now you're hurting but, It. . . is more complicated than that. Fate is the differential of your final destination. Your Destiny is more like how your journey coincides with the final destination, if that makes sense.

What if, for example, you find your own destiny later in life, instead of remaining in the dark and pain of your life right now? What if you can move on?
"Fulfill your destiny", by finding a certain career choice. If you want to be a detective, for example, you might become a Private Eye instead of a detective working more closely with the police. So, "Fate" is the state of you being a Private Investigator. "Destiny" that you just fulfilled is becoming some kind of detective in the first place. What I'm saying is if there's anyway to move on, you won't find out if you end it now. Whatever difference in your plans that will happen, you need to fight this darkness in your heart that just wants to end it all.

What you're saying is that you are hurting and want the pain to end so you're deciding on ending it your'self. Well don't do that. You don't know what is supposed to happen in your life. I don't know either, but if you give up, you never get to see.

[WarKitty]

I could become suicidal if I can't get better help for my mental health.

What's the issue right now that's causing problems getting help?

[Trekkin]

I would like to continue talking in this thread, without him. That is why I am asking him, as someone who is clearly detrimental to people's support in this thread and has no need for support from this thread, to leave. Then I will resume asking for support. It's not so much that I don't want him to talk to me, as I don't want him to sit here making snide remarks at all while I seek support. You'll notice I already had stopped talking to him when he chose to take another snipe at me, presumably because I'd stopped responding to him directly.

Not that I don't support your efforts, Jormengand -- and they are important -- but if you need support before the thread is once again a place you feel comfortable posting, my inbox is always open and I suspect most people in this thread would be willing to help too if you feel up to writing a multiple-addressee PM. Just an adjuvant approach, in case it helps.

Same to you, ArlEammon.

[Luz]

You don't end it now because the way you feel doesn't navigate where you're going. You don't know your own fate and destiny. Right now you're hurting but, It. . . is more complicated than that. Fate is the differential of your final destination. Your Destiny is more like how your journey coincides with the final destination, if that makes sense.

"Fulfill your destiny", by finding a certain career choice. If you want to be a detective, for example, you might become a Private Eye instead of a detective working more closely with the police. So, "Fate" is the state of you being a Private Investigator. "Destiny" that you just fulfilled is becoming some kind of detective in the first place.

What you're saying is that you are hurting and want the pain to end so you're deciding on ending it your'self. Well don't do that. You don't know what is supposed to happen in your life. I don't know either, but if you give up, you never get to see.

The pain is never ending. I can't see one situation where it would not be a horrible excuse of existence.

Decided to delete it but I will re-post it now:


I could become suicidal if I can't get better help for my mental health.
I’m on the same boat.

Is it just me or the world is getting worst? I just posted about my problems and no one cared the few who did said that I shouldn’t have looked at the YouTube hateful comments.

But just look at what happen at this very forum! I don’t look so silly now, do I? Hate is everywhere, we can't escape, it was always there but it was just using camouflage, now for some reason it decided it didn't care anymore.

What’s the point on keep on living? Why not just end it now?

[ArlEammon]

What's the issue right now that's causing problems getting help?

Probably brain chemistry or something.


The pain is never ending. I can't see one situation where it would not be a horrible excuse of existence.

Decided to delete it but I will re-post it now:


I’m on the same boat.

Is it just me or the world is getting worst? I just posted about my problems and no one cared the few who did said that I shouldn’t have looked at the YouTube hateful comments.

But just look at what happen at this very forum! I don’t look so silly now, do I? Hate is everywhere, we can't escape, it was always there but it was just using camouflage, now for some reason it decided it didn't care anymore.

What’s the point on keep on living? Why not just end it now?

I posted a response to you one or to posts up. You don't end it now because you need to fight the obscuring of your vision. You don't need to end it now because if you give up, you'll never find out if there's a way out.

[lio45]

I would like to continue talking in this thread, without him.

Which you can do, as long as you don't twist my words into strawmen that are the exact opposite of my position.

[WarKitty]

Probably brain chemistry or something.

To clarify: what's the biggest issue, right now, preventing you from getting better mental health help?

[Luz]

Probably brain chemistry or something.



I posted a response to you one or to posts up. You don't end it now because you need to fight the obscuring of your vision. You don't need to end it now because if you give up, you'll never find out if there's a way out.

I know but I decided to delete I was just re-posting it after I noticed you already saw it and answered it.

What if there is no way out? Isn't existing just a waste of time.


To clarify: what's the biggest issue, right now, preventing you from getting better mental health help?

It just seem pointless, I’m working on to be a university professor, but I realized that students are a bunch of rude jerks. I can’t see one job I could be happy since everyone seem so worthless. So caught up on their hate and so blinded by their pride, I just want it all to end in hellfire.

[ArlEammon]

To clarify: what's the biggest issue, right now, preventing you from getting better mental health help?

The biggest issue right now is that nothing seems to happen in my sessions with the counselor, I keep forgetting to do my homework he sends with me.


I know but I decided to delete I was just re-posting it after I noticed you already saw it and answered it.

What if there is no way out? Isn't existing just a waste of time.

PM?

[Jormengand]

Which you can do, as long as you don't twist my words into strawmen that are the exact opposite of my position.

Get. Out. I don't know what possessed you to talk to me again.

[Luz]

PM?

Not a big fan of PMs, I prefer to post here where everyone can see. If you want to say something more private and particular you can pm me.

[ArlEammon]

Get. Out. I don't know what possessed you to talk to me again.

---

Zuul!

[Trekkin]

Is it just me or the world is getting worst? I just posted about my problems and no one cared the few who did said that I shouldn’t have looked at the YouTube hateful comments.

But just look at what happen at this very forum! I don’t look so silly now, do I? Hate is everywhere, we can't escape, it was always there but it was just using camouflage, now for some reason it decided it didn't care anymore.

What’s the point on keep on living? Why not just end it now?

No, you don't look silly. You never have. I would, however, contest that the world isn't getting worse. It's just getting louder, because all the voices are closer together and have to shout over one another to be heard -- because for the first time, they're feeling the need to say all the things they used to just assume.

I'm sorry I don't remember seeing your earlier post, but I don't think the posters who responded were trying to be dismissive. Youtube comments really are awful and usually hateful about something or other, because that's how anger survives: by making more anger to feed off of. What you're reading there aren't thoughts. They're the spawning grounds for more of the means to ablate thought. They're meant to hurt, and to signal hurt, and that's all they're meant to do. It's good to stay away from them.

[lio45]

Is it just me or the world is getting worst? I just posted about my problems and no one cared the few who did said that I shouldn’t have looked at the YouTube hateful comments.

The world is definitely changing. Internet has made it easier than ever before in history for people to connect and exchange/spread information. YouTube hateful comments -- that's part of it; the internet is giving a platform to idiots anywhere to speak to the world. In the past, you couldn't hope to get published (i.e. have your words read by large number of eyeballs) without qualifications. That's changed. Anyone can post anything and have it be read by others.

It's the other side of the coin of freedom of expression combined with technology. I think the only real "cure for that" is to grow a thicker skin. But please rest assured that YouTube hateful comments aren't a representative cross-section of the world, they're a particularly awful one, and should be treated as such.

[ArlEammon]

Hi guys, it's me again. Still sad and depressed.

I went to YouTube to see the new #proud to be video, saw the comments and the dislikes, saw how horrible people can be.

Still going bald, still taking a medicine that may stop it in vain attempt to keep my hair that nature said it has to fall.

Still the same medicine may make me impotent, still wondering if that's good or bad.

Thinking about running away, knowing that I can't.

Still tuck on a dead end job, with no disposition to improve.

Still stuck with parents that hate me for who I’m.

Still lying and pretending.

I’m tired guys… I’m really really tired.

Here's the post for people who want to know what he's talking about.

I'm sorry about your problems Luz. I'm listening.

[Luz]

It's not just on youtube, it's everywhere.

For some the internet is a look directly in the hearth of the collective unconscious I thought it was going to be a wonderful place.

But no, it's vile, it's the 4chan. It's the memes. it's the social media.

That is where the masks fall, that is where we see how we really look like and by the gods the horror.

[lio45]

I would, however, contest that the world isn't getting worse. It's just getting louder, because all the voices are closer together and have to shout over one another to be heard -- because for the first time, they're feeling the need to say all the things they used to just assume.

Yep. Both the good parts and the bad parts are louder now and easier to see; side effect of the internet. It's never been easier than in today's world to access opinions from regular people that you couldn't disagree more with.

BTW, I don't necessarily intend to stay in this thread (though I notice both Coidzor and Razade at least seem to occasionally participate in it...) so there's no need to worry about that. Also, to Luz, may I suggest consider shaving your head off? Any reasons you'd be strongly opposed to that idea...? It's usually the most elegant solution for balding guys.

[ArlEammon]

---

Zuul!


Get. Out. I don't know what possessed you to talk to me again.

Im not trying to be insensitive I just think that no one including me knows what to do.

[Luz]

Yep. Both the good parts and the bad parts are louder now and easier to see; side effect of the internet. It's never been easier than in today's world to access opinions from regular people that you couldn't disagree more with.

BTW, I don't necessarily intend to stay in this thread (though I notice both Coidzor and Razade at least seem to occasionally participate in it...) so there's no need to worry about that. Also, to Luz, may I suggest consider shaving your head off? Any reasons you'd be strongly opposed to that idea...? It's usually the most elegant solution for balding guys.

It has been suggested, I rather die.

The only thing that keeps me from believing I’m completely ugly, the only thing that causes other people to flirt with me, was my hair.

If I lose it I lose all.

And no I’m not exaggerating f you.

[WarKitty]

I know but I decided to delete I was just re-posting it after I noticed you already saw it and answered it.

What if there is no way out? Isn't existing just a waste of time.



It just seem pointless, I’m working on to be a university professor, but I realized that students are a bunch of rude jerks. I can’t see one job I could be happy since everyone seem so worthless. So caught up on their hate and so blinded by their pride, I just want it all to end in hellfire.

For what it's worth: I'm 29. I have an MA in philosophy, which took extra-long to get because mental health issues. I'm not using it. I work in a call center and am thinking about what to do to start a new career.

And you know what? It's ok. And I don't feel like I necessarily need a job I'm thrilled about - it's ok to have a job that pays the bills and gives me a bit of money to enjoy myself.


The biggest issue right now is that nothing seems to happen in my sessions with the counselor, I keep forgetting to do my homework he sends with me.

Don't suppose you've talked to him about forgetting?

[Trekkin]

It has been suggested, I rather die.

The only thing that keeps me from believing I’m completely ugly, the only thing that causes other people to flirt with me, was my hair.


Perhaps a toupée could be a solution, then?

[Luz]

Perhaps a toupée could be a solution, then?

Can we not talk about my hair right now? And focus on the despair that our insignificant and hateful society is causing me? Thanks.

[ArlEammon]

For what it's worth: I'm 29. I have an MA in philosophy, which took extra-long to get because mental health issues. I'm not using it. I work in a call center and am thinking about what to do to start a new career.

And you know what? It's ok. And I don't feel like I necessarily need a job I'm thrilled about - it's ok to have a job that pays the bills and gives me a bit of money to enjoy myself.



Don't suppose you've talked to him about forgetting?


Yeah I've spoken to him about forgetting. I need to do some excersizes this evening before I forget. lol.

[Luz]

Yeah I've spoken to him about forgetting. I need to do some excersizes this evening before I forget. lol.

Can I just say your avatar looks awesome? Where is it from?

[ArlEammon]

Can I just say your avatar looks awesome? Where is it from?

Thank you and Hercules the Legendary Journey.

[Trekkin]

Can we not talk about my hair right now? And focus on the despair that our insignificant and hateful society is causing me? Thanks.

I'm sorry.

If it helps, society isn't a monolith, and it has never been easier to find people who are less awful than the norm. Most people aren't hateful all the time, or even most of the time; the Internet is just where they go when they have a whole lot of views and no good way to express them.

The hate you're reading is a few people being utterly awful, yes, but it's only ever been a few starting it and a whole bunch of neutral folks with no idea what they're doing parroting it without realizing what they're saying. It's really easy to just go quietly along with whatever's happening, but don't mistake conformity for solidarity; out of every hundred people saying awful things, half of them are just there cause they're friends with the other half and want to fit in, and most of the rest are just hurt and angry and untrained in how to vent that. Then, too, there's always the one guy in the back who just saw a load of people in one place and is trying to sell them sausages in a bun.

The point is that you're looking at a support base a mile wide and mostly an inch deep with a couple of real potholes here and there, and most of it evaporates away very easily. People who are actually capable of putting forth the monumental effort to really hate another person they don't even know are staggeringly rare; they just say things loudly and forcefully and people tag along because chanting makes them feel a part of something.

It's not as bad as it looks, is what I'm saying.

[ArlEammon]

I'm so lonely. I wish I had a date or a boyfriend or girlfriend. This sucks azz.

[137beth]

How I feel most of the time:
http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/97/92/499859711316bd99c662cc7c987e3614.jpg

Heh, that's how I felt for most of my life. Now I just hang out with people who don't talk about that, at least not very often.

[Florian]

And focus on the despair that our insignificant and hateful society is causing me? Thanks.

It´s a matter of perspective, really. We´ve always had that huge gap between the progressives and the conservatives and yet, we steadily progressed. Calling our societies "insignificant" also means ignoring how much progress we had since the 60s and how hard most of the battles were compared to what have to face today. You know, such basic things like women having the right to vote or take on a job without her husband signing the contract? Who´d had thought that gay marriage would be a thing even in arch-catholic countries?

I mean, look over towards the arab world. This is where we started not half a century ago. See how far and how fast we made progress, then think about that "hurt" used to mean nightsticks at human rights demos and combat boots in dark allies, while now it just means words in the internet.

Now I actually do feel empathy for both sides on this, as for the "old white male", we do destroy their world as they know it, forcing them to adapt, while for a lot of us, the goal is in sight and we make two steps towards it and one step back.

[JusticeZero]

I had to ask my mother for help.
There was some perfumed laundry soap brought into my house, and somebody washed clothes with it. They used a lot of it, so the scent got into other things too. Then everyone involved in that left... AND LEFT THE UNCAPPED BOTTLE OF SOAP.
Artificial scents might as well be green glowing rocks from the planet Krypton as far as I am concerned. So I was basically stuck in my room coughing, whimpering, and gulping painkillers until I could get some help.

[Lycunadari]

I'm so lonely. I wish I had a date or a boyfriend or girlfriend. This sucks azz.
I feel you. Hugs?


I had to ask my mother for help.
There was some perfumed laundry soap brought into my house, and somebody washed clothes with it. They used a lot of it, so the scent got into other things too. Then everyone involved in that left... AND LEFT THE UNCAPPED BOTTLE OF SOAP.
Artificial scents might as well be green glowing rocks from the planet Krypton as far as I am concerned. So I was basically stuck in my room coughing, whimpering, and gulping painkillers until I could get some help.
Oh wow, that sounds horrible. Are you okay now?


-----
Can I vent for a bit?
It's been four years since I started coming out to people, and I feel like I've gotten nowhere. I'm only out to a handful of people because I'm too scared people wont take me seriously or worse when I tell them I'm genderqueer. A few more people use my new name (even people I'm not out to, they just think it's a nickname or something) so that is good, but people just go with female pronouns out of convenience. I've thought about asking the people I'm out to to use male pronouns, or change it up, but what use would that have? I'm just as uncomfortable with male pronouns as I am with female pronouns.
I can't bind due to chronic pain and breathing troubles that get worse every time I wear my binder, so I always have to choose between dysphoria and pain. I can't get top surgery due to gatekeeping, I can't get hormones due to gatekeeping (though I'm not even sure I want hormones, being genderfluid. But right now, I definitely tend towards wanting to try low dose T.)
I might be able to pass as male if I wore the right clothes, but I *like* my feminine clothes, I like my skirts and pretty colours. I'm a very feminine person, I'm just not a woman. Is passing worth disliking your clothes? And I don't even want to pass as male, I just don't want to be seen as a woman. I just want to be seen as my queer self.
It's frustrating. And I don't know what I could do that could help, I feel stuck. There is no "I just need to wait x amount of time to get on hormones/get surgery" for me. There is no "it's only a matter of time (and money) till I get my gender marker changed" for me. There's nothing I can look forward to, nothing to keep me hopeful. I don't know what to do.

[Florian]

@Lycunadari:

You´ve got a Uniqlo store near you? Japanese clothing chain with some interesting male/female clothes, as well as a broad line of asexual/androgyne clothing. Dress as male/female as you like.
(Great linen clothing, love the pants and got me a new panama hat)

[CWater]

I feel you. Hugs?


Oh wow, that sounds horrible. Are you okay now?


-----
Can I vent for a bit?
It's been four years since I started coming out to people, and I feel like I've gotten nowhere. I'm only out to a handful of people because I'm too scared people wont take me seriously or worse when I tell them I'm genderqueer. A few more people use my new name (even people I'm not out to, they just think it's a nickname or something) so that is good, but people just go with female pronouns out of convenience. I've thought about asking the people I'm out to to use male pronouns, or change it up, but what use would that have? I'm just as uncomfortable with male pronouns as I am with female pronouns.
I can't bind due to chronic pain and breathing troubles that get worse every time I wear my binder, so I always have to choose between dysphoria and pain. I can't get top surgery due to gatekeeping, I can't get hormones due to gatekeeping (though I'm not even sure I want hormones, being genderfluid. But right now, I definitely tend towards wanting to try low dose T.)
I might be able to pass as male if I wore the right clothes, but I *like* my feminine clothes, I like my skirts and pretty colours. I'm a very feminine person, I'm just not a woman. Is passing worth disliking your clothes? And I don't even want to pass as male, I just don't want to be seen as a woman. I just want to be seen as my queer self.
It's frustrating. And I don't know what I could do that could help, I feel stuck. There is no "I just need to wait x amount of time to get on hormones/get surgery" for me. There is no "it's only a matter of time (and money) till I get my gender marker changed" for me. There's nothing I can look forward to, nothing to keep me hopeful. I don't know what to do.

This is exactly how I feel too often. (Well except that I'm not really feminine, though I still like the few 'feminine' clothes I have, like skirts and some shirts. Also too 'gifted' to ever pass as male even if I tried to.)

I really wish I had advice. *hugs*

[Luz]

It´s a matter of perspective, really. We´ve always had that huge gap between the progressives and the conservatives and yet, we steadily progressed. Calling our societies "insignificant" also means ignoring how much progress we had since the 60s and how hard most of the battles were compared to what have to face today. You know, such basic things like women having the right to vote or take on a job without her husband signing the contract? Who´d had thought that gay marriage would be a thing even in arch-catholic countries?

I mean, look over towards the arab world. This is where we started not half a century ago. See how far and how fast we made progress, then think about that "hurt" used to mean nightsticks at human rights demos and combat boots in dark allies, while now it just means words in the internet.

Now I actually do feel empathy for both sides on this, as for the "old white male", we do destroy their world as they know it, forcing them to adapt, while for a lot of us, the goal is in sight and we make two steps towards it and one step back.

I'm just so tired I feel like everyone hates me and that is starting to make me hate everyone.

-Religions hate me because I'm gay.
-My parents hate me because I tried to get out of the closet.
-Gays hate me because I live in Narnia.
-You probably hate me because you can see I'm an annoying guy who complains too much.

I'm tired, I'm starting to think it's not worth since if I try to make a part of the people I know happy the other part will be unhappy, and as long as there people around me unhappy because of me, I can't be happy.

[2D8HP]

I just took a walk around my block.

Two houses were still flying Rainbow Flags after Pride Week.

Two were flying American Flags for Independence Day.

And one house was flying both flags side by side.

I like living here.

[JusticeZero]

Well, my head still throbs at home a bit, so I am sure I missed some someplace.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, my head still throbs at home a bit, so I am sure I missed some someplace.

*offers hugs*

Can sympathize. :smallfrown:

[Astrella]

I feel you. Hugs?


Oh wow, that sounds horrible. Are you okay now?


-----
Can I vent for a bit?
It's been four years since I started coming out to people, and I feel like I've gotten nowhere. I'm only out to a handful of people because I'm too scared people wont take me seriously or worse when I tell them I'm genderqueer. A few more people use my new name (even people I'm not out to, they just think it's a nickname or something) so that is good, but people just go with female pronouns out of convenience. I've thought about asking the people I'm out to to use male pronouns, or change it up, but what use would that have? I'm just as uncomfortable with male pronouns as I am with female pronouns.
I can't bind due to chronic pain and breathing troubles that get worse every time I wear my binder, so I always have to choose between dysphoria and pain. I can't get top surgery due to gatekeeping, I can't get hormones due to gatekeeping (though I'm not even sure I want hormones, being genderfluid. But right now, I definitely tend towards wanting to try low dose T.)
I might be able to pass as male if I wore the right clothes, but I *like* my feminine clothes, I like my skirts and pretty colours. I'm a very feminine person, I'm just not a woman. Is passing worth disliking your clothes? And I don't even want to pass as male, I just don't want to be seen as a woman. I just want to be seen as my queer self.
It's frustrating. And I don't know what I could do that could help, I feel stuck. There is no "I just need to wait x amount of time to get on hormones/get surgery" for me. There is no "it's only a matter of time (and money) till I get my gender marker changed" for me. There's nothing I can look forward to, nothing to keep me hopeful. I don't know what to do.

That's a very frustrating situation to be in Juniper, I'm sorry. *offers hugs*

Have you asked people you're out to to use neutral pronouns?

is the trans Healthcare situation in Germany that then? I'd say self-medding but with testosterone being a restricted substance that might get difficult. (do you follow chaos life, I know the author of that comic is non-binary and has tried T though I think they're more neutrois while you're genderfluid right?)

Maybe you could find a sympathetic GP? I consider going to another country? I know the gender clinic in Ghent where I go has influx from neighbouring countries at least. I also have a non-binaire trans woman acquaintance that got bottom surgery through the gender clinic; I could ask her for experiences?

Sorry things are looking like there's no progress.

[super dark33]

I saw some biphobic stuff in an alleged queerfriendly place and i want to punch things and cry.

[Florian]

Have you asked people you're out to to use neutral pronouns?

is the trans Healthcare situation in Germany that then?

Hm....

Using neutral pronouns is hard outside the formal version of the german language.

And I don´t get Juniper on this. The TSG is in effect and a GAOP is possible, even paid for by basic health care.

[Orcus The Vile]

I'm just so tired I feel like everyone hates me and that is starting to make me hate everyone.

-Religions hate me because I'm gay.
-My parents hate me because I tried to get out of the closet.
-Gays hate me because I live in Narnia.
-You probably hate me because you can see I'm an annoying guy who complains too much.

I'm tired, I'm starting to think it's not worth since if I try to make a part of the people I know happy the other part will be unhappy, and as long as there people around me unhappy because of me, I can't be happy.

I agree, coming out is just not worth it. At least for me, I'm in no condition of doing it and I have no "Pride" of my condition.

Because of that no one is whiling to date me since dating someone in closet seem to be too much work.

It sucks but trust me you are better off alone.

[Lycunadari]

@Lycunadari:

You´ve got a Uniqlo store near you? Japanese clothing chain with some interesting male/female clothes, as well as a broad line of asexual/androgyne clothing. Dress as male/female as you like.
(Great linen clothing, love the pants and got me a new panama hat)
I'm in Bavaria, so no stores near me. But I looked at the online store (where everything is sorted into male and female <.<), and the things don't seem that different from any other clothes I could get at, like, K&L or something.


This is exactly how I feel too often. (Well except that I'm not really feminine, though I still like the few 'feminine' clothes I have, like skirts and some shirts. Also too 'gifted' to ever pass as male even if I tried to.)

I really wish I had advice. *hugs*
*hugs*


That's a very frustrating situation to be in Juniper, I'm sorry. *offers hugs*

Have you asked people you're out to to use neutral pronouns?

is the trans Healthcare situation in Germany that then? I'd say self-medding but with testosterone being a restricted substance that might get difficult. (do you follow chaos life, I know the author of that comic is non-binary and has tried T though I think they're more neutrois while you're genderfluid right?)

Maybe you could find a sympathetic GP? I consider going to another country? I know the gender clinic in Ghent where I go has influx from neighbouring countries at least. I also have a non-binaire trans woman acquaintance that got bottom surgery through the gender clinic; I could ask her for experiences?

Sorry things are looking like there's no progress.
There aren't really neutral pronouns in Germany - we have the equivalent of it/its, but that is not used for humans, and making up new pronouns is difficult because of the somewhat complicated grammar. And the language in general is just very gendered- like, there's always a female and a male word for job titels, there isn't a singular gender neutral word for sibling etc. I try to get around it as much as possible by avoiding nouns completely in relation to me (so, instead of "I'm a biology student" (because student would be gendered) I say "I study biology") but there's always a point where that's impossible.

To get hormones in Germany you need to be in therapy for six months, get diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder and your therapist has to write a letter to confirm that you need hormones, same with 18 months therapy for top surgery, and you need to be on hormones to get surgery. (Then insurance has to pay for everything). My current therapist doesn't really know much about trans stuff (I'm seeing her for depression, anxiety and ptsd), so I don't think I could get her to confirm that I need hormones. And I don't know if I'd be able to find a therapist who is willing to diagnose me/write that letter for someone who isn't "fully" trans (cause I'm definitely not a trans man, or rather only occasionally). Switching therapists isn't really easy either (because Germany loves bureaucracy), and I actually like her a lot, so I wouldn't really want to go to another therapist anyway.
But I'm not even sure that I want hormones. I think I could deal with dysphoria if I didn't get misgendered all the time. Hormones would help with looking less female, but I don't know if I'd actually like all the changes. I definitely would like top surgery, and I have considered going abroad to get it, but that would mean I'd have to pay it myself, including traveling costs etc. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth it.

I'm just... even if I could get hormones and/or surgery, I don't know how much that would actually help in a society that's so fixated on sorting everyone into neat male and female boxes.


I saw some biphobic stuff in an alleged queerfriendly place and i want to punch things and cry.
*offers hugs*


Hm....

Using neutral pronouns is hard outside the formal version of the german language.

And I don´t get Juniper on this. The TSG is in effect and a GAOP is possible, even paid for by basic health care.
The TSG only allows changing your gender marker from M to F or vice versa, there's no option to have a neutral or no gender marker. And like I wrote above, the problem isn't that surgery is impossible, it's that it's basically unavailable for nonbinary people because the Gender Identity Disorder diagnosis only mentions wanting to live as the "opposite sex". And there are even plenty of binary trans people who had difficulties getting hormones/surgery because they didn't conform to a therapists notions of what a woman/man has to be like. Just because something is possible/available in theory doesn't mean it also is in practice.

[JusticeZero]

I have had to educate all my therapists. I have never had access to a "gender therapist" per se, other than the one who occasionally adjusts my doses - and she wasn't even trained as a specialist. She's just a counselor that happened to be queer and ended up working with trans patients because she would actually follow the published guidelines.
If you come in with all the resources for your area, you can definitely start the process of getting them up to speed on dysphoria.. if nothing else, hiding dysphoria from them means that you are not talking about a huge component of the other things you go to them for help with. All my therapists have been happy to do their best to accommodate me on trans related issues, as long as I have been able to point them toward the resources they needed to get up to speed with locally applicable standards and conventions and such. There are a lot of questions they don't know to ask about, but I can help guide discussion somewhat.

[Nat_Zero]

Hi Juniper, your situation sounds a lot like me a few years ago! I am AFAB, agender, and femme. I actually joined this forum at the suggestion of my partner, who saw your post and thought I might be able to contribute.

This


I might be able to pass as male if I wore the right clothes, but I *like* my feminine clothes, I like my skirts and pretty colours. I'm a very feminine person, I'm just not a woman. Is passing worth disliking your clothes? And I don't even want to pass as male, I just don't want to be seen as a woman. I just want to be seen as my queer self.

in particular really speaks to me, as does


But I'm not even sure that I want hormones. I think I could deal with dysphoria if I didn't get misgendered all the time. Hormones would help with looking less female, but I don't know if I'd actually like all the changes. I definitely would like top surgery, and I have considered going abroad to get it, but that would mean I'd have to pay it myself, including traveling costs etc. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth it.

I'm just... even if I could get hormones and/or surgery, I don't know how much that would actually help in a society that's so fixated on sorting everyone into neat male and female boxes.


Of course, everyone’s experience is different, but I thought I would share mine in case any of it helps. :) When I first explored my gender, I thought I was trans* and that I should get top surgery and start on T. I bound and wore clothes from the men’s section for about a year, but it also felt uncomfortable for me, as that gender identity didn’t fit either. Now I don’t bind, and I wear clothes designed for men and women, but mostly feminine things and I feel massively better than I used to. For me, a lot of what helped was shifting my focus from “passing” to “making myself happy.”

Unfortunately, society kind of sucks right now when it comes to non-binary identities, and it probably will for a while. There is a strong pressure, even in the queer community, for non-binary people to appear as having a certain androgyny. But, it’s important to remember that, like binary people, non-binary people come in a large range from femme to masc, and there is not a single way to look non-binary. You are genderqueer, and however you look and present yourself you will be genderqueer, regardless of the views of society. It is, in my opinion, more important to be happy with yourself than to wear clothes you don’t like in order to “pass.”

Therefore, my suggestion is to do a good deal introspection on what would make you feel happy if you were in a vacuum or a society where everyone was non-binary and could express themselves however they wanted. Would you still wear skirts in such a society? Would you still want T if it wouldn’t make a difference in how people categorized you? etc. I would take the time to think about these things carefully. I'm optimistic and hope that society will catch up to us, so I would be cautious about doing irreversible things that wouldn't make you personally happy. I also think it's important to show diversity in the non-binary community to help move society there.

It took me several years to realize a lot of what I thought I wanted was just because it’s what society told me I did. Once I figured out the things that made me feel happy, and focused on those rather than "passing," I started to feel a lot more confident about myself and my gender identity and then things like being misgendered bothered me less as it was their problem for not under standing non-binary identities and not mine for not "passing" well enough.

I hope this helped some. <3

[Luz]

I agree, coming out is just not worth it. At least for me, I'm in no condition of doing it and I have no "Pride" of my condition.

Because of that no one is whiling to date me since dating someone in closet seem to be too much work.

It sucks but trust me you are better off alone.

I know but I still want to date and archive sexual gratification.

I just don't want to sacrifice so much for that, why can't people accept me for who I'm?

[Astrella]

Why are a lot of gamers such ****heads? Arguing on a Malifaux thread about inclusion of LGBT characters and I'm getting Putin-esque promotion of LGBT thrown at me. >.>

[JNAProductions]

Why are a lot of gamers such ****heads? Arguing on a Malifaux thread about inclusion of LGBT characters and I'm getting Putin-esque promotion of LGBT thrown at me. >.>

Speaking as a gamer...

People are asshats everywhere. You'll find bad people in every hobby and group.

[Trekkin]

Why are a lot of gamers such ****heads? Arguing on a Malifaux thread about inclusion of LGBT characters and I'm getting Putin-esque promotion of LGBT thrown at me. >.>

Well, geek culture is more structurally amenable to various kinds of awfulness than I think a lot of people want to admit, for reasons I posted about here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22167021&postcount=122) (apologies for the gauche self-quote, but the reactions were kind of funny. "You can be openly misogynist as long as you call any dissent ironic" and the first sentence of the response was about how ironic it was.)

In short, a lot of the standard geek/gamer social fallacies can also serve to shield people with hateful views from the censure they need, and a lot of geeks react badly to the idea that they might be unwittingly doing something wrong since so much of their self-esteem is founded on their perceived perspicacity.

Then, too, JNAProductions is right: there's awful people everywhere. Gaming is just a lens into the awfulness that was inside people all along.

[Chen]

Any sources on any of that? Anecdotally I haven't found geeks any more or less toxic or bigoted than non-geeks. In that being a geek doesn't seem to be any better a predictor of bigotry than simply being a human is. You'll probably see more absolute amount of bigotry on the internet attributed to geeks, but I'd wager that comes from there being more geeks on the internet to begin with. Like the ridiculous amounts of bigotry that comes from my grandparents and their friends is not stuff that will show up on the internet since none of them would even know how to get onto it.

[Trekkin]

Any sources on any of that? Anecdotally I haven't found geeks any more or less toxic or bigoted than non-geeks. In that being a geek doesn't seem to be any better a predictor of bigotry than simply being a human is. You'll probably see more absolute amount of bigotry on the internet attributed to geeks, but I'd wager that comes from there being more geeks on the internet to begin with. Like the ridiculous amounts of bigotry that comes from my grandparents and their friends is not stuff that will show up on the internet since none of them would even know how to get onto it.

Goodness me, no. That's mostly a gedankenexperiment-style rant supported only by anecdotal evidence and that one (unscientific) article about Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html), which is itself just more unsourced wittering. I'm not aware of any anthropological studies looking at the intersection of geek culture and social justice specifically, largely because it's not my field and I don't know how to look efficiently, but if you know of any I will absolutely read them.

I'd agree that geeks aren't necessarily more personally toxic/bigoted individually; my point was that, without a willingness to confront bigotry or toxicity (see GSF-2) or the ability to exclude them (GSF-1), geek social circles are more vulnerable to sheltering bigots and accommodating bigotry than others might be.

As for the entrenched geek resistance to admitting they're wrong, I point you to any of several recent threads on here. Check for the words "ironic" and "fallacy."

[WarKitty]

As a former instructor in logic and critical thinking, I have decided that fallacies, by and large, are not very useful. I think a few of the most common ones might be useful, but even then people often have a hard time distinguishing. Ad hominem is one of the most basic - but even then, we had a discussion (on another forum) of why "don't take relationship advice from people who've never had a long-term-stable relationship" is not an ad hominem. So really what tends to end up happening is that people don't like an argument so they throw the closest fallacy at it.

[Chen]

Goodness me, no. That's mostly a gedankenexperiment-style rant supported only by anecdotal evidence and that one (unscientific) article about Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html), which is itself just more unsourced wittering. I'm not aware of any anthropological studies looking at the intersection of geek culture and social justice specifically, largely because it's not my field and I don't know how to look efficiently, but if you know of any I will absolutely read them.

I'd agree that geeks aren't necessarily more personally toxic/bigoted individually; my point was that, without a willingness to confront bigotry or toxicity (see GSF-2) or the ability to exclude them (GSF-1), geek social circles are more vulnerable to sheltering bigots and accommodating bigotry than others might be.

As for the entrenched geek resistance to admitting they're wrong, I point you to any of several recent threads on here. Check for the words "ironic" and "fallacy."

That's an interesting article. And frankly it would appear my general "geeky" friend group is not similar to any of those. So perhaps my anecdotes are less representative, assuming there's at least some background material somewhere to justify those "fallacies" as being somewhat common among geeks.

[Heliomance]

I am pretty. I'm not sure when this happened, but I'm definitely pretty. Possibly even a little bit sexy. I like it.

[Comrade]

A good realisation to arrive at.

[Prospekt]

So... I got a haircut! A kind of a big deal haircut! Bringing out my inner lesbiab, you might say.

Before (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK6_YdUAAAUNHn.jpg) -> After (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK7DY_U0AEz_Lc.jpg)

I found myself really attracted to the idea of a pixie cut, so yeah, the right side and back of my hair is much shorter than the side I'm showing you in that picture. I do kind of miss my long hair, but it was also a really big pain to deal with in the morning, so...

[Astrella]

So... I got a haircut! A kind of a big deal haircut! Bringing out my inner lesbiab, you might say.

Before (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK6_YdUAAAUNHn.jpg) -> After (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK7DY_U0AEz_Lc.jpg)

I found myself really attracted to the idea of a pixie cut, so yeah, the right side and back of my hair is much shorter than the side I'm showing you in that picture. I do kind of miss my long hair, but it was also a really big pain to deal with in the morning, so...

Well that's a great look on you, very cute! Reminding me of a girl that frequents the store I work at.

[Dire Moose]

There has been a sudden rash of transphobic comments from my wife's coworkers lately. She's overheard such gems as:

"If she gives you any trouble, remember she's not really a woman."

"What he's doing is wicked."

"I'm not using the bathroom when he's in there." This was said after the person in question peeked through the stall door while she was inside.

I'm really frustrated that there's nothing I can do about it since I don't work there. She's currently hoping to find a new job soon for obvious reasons. I've also suggested she speak to HR, though she said she'd have to get more evidence first. There's also been a big shakeup at work lately that led to about 19 people getting let go, so hopefully some of the nasty ones will get put out with them. Still frustrated that I can't directly deal with it, but I have made sure I'm there for her when she needs me.

[JNAProductions]

So... I got a haircut! A kind of a big deal haircut! Bringing out my inner lesbiab, you might say.

Before (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK6_YdUAAAUNHn.jpg) -> After (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK7DY_U0AEz_Lc.jpg)

I found myself really attracted to the idea of a pixie cut, so yeah, the right side and back of my hair is much shorter than the side I'm showing you in that picture. I do kind of miss my long hair, but it was also a really big pain to deal with in the morning, so...

I like the cut. Looks nice!


There has been a sudden rash of transphobic comments from my wife's coworkers lately. She's overheard such gems as:

"If she gives you any trouble, remember she's not really a woman."

"What he's doing is wicked."

"I'm not using the bathroom when he's in there." This was said after the person in question peeked through the stall door while she was inside.

I'm really frustrated that there's nothing I can do about it since I don't work there. She's currently hoping to find a new job soon for obvious reasons. I've also suggested she speak to HR, though she said she'd have to get more evidence first. There's also been a big shakeup at work lately that led to about 19 people getting let go, so hopefully some of the nasty ones will get put out with them. Still frustrated that I can't directly deal with it, but I have made sure I'm there for her when she needs me.

*Offers hugs to Moose and wife*

I'm sorry to hear that. I wish I could do more than just offer e-hugs and an ear to complain/vent/talk to, but unfortunately, that's all I can do.

I hope that they realize they're being asshats and stop, but I know that that's unlikely.

[Miraqariftsky]

There has been a sudden rash of transphobic comments from my wife's coworkers lately. She's overheard such gems as:

"If she gives you any trouble, remember she's not really a woman."

"What he's doing is wicked."

"I'm not using the bathroom when he's in there." This was said after the person in question peeked through the stall door while she was inside.

I'm really frustrated that there's nothing I can do about it since I don't work there. She's currently hoping to find a new job soon for obvious reasons. I've also suggested she speak to HR, though she said she'd have to get more evidence first. There's also been a big shakeup at work lately that led to about 19 people getting let go, so hopefully some of the nasty ones will get put out with them. Still frustrated that I can't directly deal with it, but I have made sure I'm there for her when she needs me.

Sorrytahear, comrade.

1] Uh-huh. In the same vein, you're not really a decent human being.

2] If that's wicked, then what do you call your judgment?

3] ~CLAP CLAP CLAP~ Ohhhhh, hypocrisy. Actually friggin' peeking in, what the heck. And THEY dare accuse and complain about transgender people being so-called perverts.

And hilarity that, if she decides to call any of these offensive asses out on a duel to avenge her honour, they'd say that's "MANLY". Ugh.

Hope things get better for her and you soon, Moose.

[Lycunadari]

I have had to educate all my therapists. I have never had access to a "gender therapist" per se, other than the one who occasionally adjusts my doses - and she wasn't even trained as a specialist. She's just a counselor that happened to be queer and ended up working with trans patients because she would actually follow the published guidelines.
If you come in with all the resources for your area, you can definitely start the process of getting them up to speed on dysphoria.. if nothing else, hiding dysphoria from them means that you are not talking about a huge component of the other things you go to them for help with. All my therapists have been happy to do their best to accommodate me on trans related issues, as long as I have been able to point them toward the resources they needed to get up to speed with locally applicable standards and conventions and such. There are a lot of questions they don't know to ask about, but I can help guide discussion somewhat.
Yeah, I'll probably try talking with her about gender stuff some time. She knows that I'm trans, it's just not something that has come up since our first session. I'm just a bit weary because the last therapist I saw was very much not good in that regard (asking stuff like "Why don't you want to be a woman? What's so bad about being a woman?").



Hi Juniper, your situation sounds a lot like me a few years ago! *snip*

I hope this helped some. <3
Hi! Welcome, and thank you for joining to help me, that's super nice of you!

Yeah, I definitely still have some thinking to do what I actually want, transition-wise. Until a few months ago I was actually pretty sure that I don't want T. But considering gatekeeping and such, it's not like I'll be able to do anything rash.
But I know that I definitely want to look androgynous, it's just that the kind of androgynous I want is hard to achieve with the body I have. Like, androgyny for AFAB people is expected to mean wearing suits and button-up shirts, also plain colours and straight lines, while for AMAB people it's more feminine and flamboyant clothes. Like this (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/11/article-2453771-18AA266600000578-529_306x799.jpg) vs this (https://www.popjustice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/patrick-wolf.jpg). And I want to look more like the second. So it's less that I like feminine clothes (or looking feminine), I just don't like boring clothes, if that makes sense? But that look is hard to get when I have breasts and soft facial features etc, and failing to look like this makes me dysphoric (both when I end up looking "too male" and "too female"). And I (currently) think both HRT and top surgery would help with that. (Also, being able to go around topless would be great.)
So while "passing" and being read (in)correctly does of course play a role (because getting misgendered sucks), I'm pretty sure that even in a perfect society I'd still be unhappy with how I look now.

(I hope that makes sense? I'm really tired, so making English sentences is kinda hard.)


I am pretty. I'm not sure when this happened, but I'm definitely pretty. Possibly even a little bit sexy. I like it.
Yay!


So... I got a haircut! A kind of a big deal haircut! Bringing out my inner lesbiab, you might say.

Before (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK6_YdUAAAUNHn.jpg) -> After (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEK7DY_U0AEz_Lc.jpg)

I found myself really attracted to the idea of a pixie cut, so yeah, the right side and back of my hair is much shorter than the side I'm showing you in that picture. I do kind of miss my long hair, but it was also a really big pain to deal with in the morning, so...
That's a cute haircut, it suits you very well.


There has been a sudden rash of transphobic comments from my wife's coworkers lately. She's overheard such gems as:

"If she gives you any trouble, remember she's not really a woman."

"What he's doing is wicked."

"I'm not using the bathroom when he's in there." This was said after the person in question peeked through the stall door while she was inside.

I'm really frustrated that there's nothing I can do about it since I don't work there. She's currently hoping to find a new job soon for obvious reasons. I've also suggested she speak to HR, though she said she'd have to get more evidence first. There's also been a big shakeup at work lately that led to about 19 people getting let go, so hopefully some of the nasty ones will get put out with them. Still frustrated that I can't directly deal with it, but I have made sure I'm there for her when she needs me.

*offers hugs to your wife and you* Transphobia sucks, but it's good she has a supportive person who's there for her. Having someone who cares can help a lot, even if there isn't anything physical you can do.

[Luz]

There has been a sudden rash of transphobic comments from my wife's coworkers lately. She's overheard such gems as:

"If she gives you any trouble, remember she's not really a woman."

"What he's doing is wicked."

"I'm not using the bathroom when he's in there." This was said after the person in question peeked through the stall door while she was inside.

I'm really frustrated that there's nothing I can do about it since I don't work there. She's currently hoping to find a new job soon for obvious reasons. I've also suggested she speak to HR, though she said she'd have to get more evidence first. There's also been a big shakeup at work lately that led to about 19 people getting let go, so hopefully some of the nasty ones will get put out with them. Still frustrated that I can't directly deal with it, but I have made sure I'm there for her when she needs me.

If that makes you feel better people at work are most of the times jerks, even if she wasn't trans they would find a way to hurt her.

People make fun becuase you are trans, gay, fat, shy, inteligent, kind, rude etc...

Ok... Maybe that won't make you feel better but still.

[JusticeZero]

My voice is a disaster right now. A combination of using it a lot on Pride, a cold, a postnasal drip, and seasonal allergies have given me a horrible cough that has wrecked my voice. I had to get it scoped today, and I am supposed to use a huge amount of nasal rinse for the moment.
I'm seeing a speech pathologist next week, but I don't know how well my voice training is going to go over with them. I'm worried that they will demand that I go to a masculine voice.

[Togath]

Learned a lesson from making youtube gaming videos a bit recently: if I talk to much, my voice goes away. And being dehydrated just worsens that. Was barely able to speak after the last batch. ^-^;; (which due to some editing issues and my voice slowly descending in to scraggly nothingness, I ended up discarding)

[The Extinguisher]

So I messed up and scheduled a job interview half an hour before a trans picnic thats getting held for Pride week, and Im feeling really bummed out. I mean, there was a good chance I wasn't going to go because I don't know anyone that would be going and im not out at all, but it was nice to have the option.

:smallsigh:

[Orcus The Vile]

I know but I still want to date and archive sexual gratification.

I just don't want to sacrifice so much for that, why can't people accept me for who I'm?

I know this is not a popular opinion; I also struggled a lot about this since I thought it would make me look like a loser, but here we go, this is what solved my problem:

Male prostitution is a thing, I’m not talking about the street one but the high class ones, male escorts from sites, they are quite expensive but this way you can have hot, hunky and intelligent guys who also good company and are willing to do anything for you and don't care about you demands, looks, or closet status.

You don't have to give anything in return since you are already giving your money and in some way this a lot more pure, prostitution is not a bad thing. It’s existed for millennia. I believe there were times when it was a sacred thing. There were priestesses at temples whose job it was to be the sacred vessel.

It's not pathetic since you know what you want and you are going to get it. Without having to waste your time with all that social and romantic bs.

If you want to go out and start a romantic relationship just so you can get real sex you’re fooling yourself. Sex is not love. Though you can be in love and have sex. When you aspire to create a romantic relationship there’s no guarantee you’ll get laid. With a prostitute if you want to get laid you pay your money and then you get laid. Then you get on with your life.

In a certain way you will always have to pay for sex, so why not just cut the chase?

[Florian]

*Gives Orcus a serious nod*

[Mystic Muse]

Does anybody have advice on epilators?

[The Extinguisher]

Does anybody have advice on epilators?

Dont use them on your face. I learned that one the hard way.

For real, if you can find yourself a starter kit that allows for multiple levels of "intensity" thats the best way to go. Its very painful so allowing yourself to build yourself a tolerance to it is invaluable.

[Mystic Muse]

Dont use them on your face. I learned that one the hard way.

For real, if you can find yourself a starter kit that allows for multiple levels of "intensity" thats the best way to go. Its very painful so allowing yourself to build yourself a tolerance to it is invaluable.

Which one/s to buy is what I meant, actually. What's good, what's trash, ETC.

[Coidzor]

Which one/s to buy is what I meant, actually. What's good, what's trash, ETC.

I believe Heliomance has some good experience with British products if those would be relevant to you, but you'll probably need to PM her.

At least I seem to recall something akin to a minor product review in the dim ages of the past of this thread.

[JusticeZero]

If you want to go out and start a romantic relationship just so you can get real sex you’re fooling yourself. Sex is not love. Though you can be in love and have sex. When you aspire to create a romantic relationship there’s no guarantee you’ll get laid.
You know, the other side of the coin is that there really are a lot of people out there who want Mr. Right Now for some recreational wiggling who do not necessarily want a long commitment. There's nothing wrong with getting into a relationship that is "We bang each other raw and silly, and now and then we might hang out a bit".
Those relationships aren't unattainable or even exotic. Especially among those who are running primarily testosterone - ye gods, that stuff flipped a breaker switch in my husband, and my getting rid of it got rid of a whole lot of really annoying reactions that were annoying ME before.

[Lycunadari]

*happy dance* :smile:

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/cylanarid/20170712_150618_zps6ddc5s8f.jpg

[The Succubus]

*happy dance* :smile:

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/cylanarid/20170712_150618_zps6ddc5s8f.jpg

X-cited? :D

[Luz]

I know this is not a popular opinion; I also struggled a lot about this since I thought it would make me look like a loser, but here we go, this is what solved my problem:

Male prostitution is a thing, I’m not talking about the street one but the high class ones, male escorts from sites, they are quite expensive but this way you can have hot, hunky and intelligent guys who also good company and are willing to do anything for you and don't care about you demands, looks, or closet status.

You don't have to give anything in return since you are already giving your money and in some way this a lot more pure, prostitution is not a bad thing. It’s existed for millennia. I believe there were times when it was a sacred thing. There were priestesses at temples whose job it was to be the sacred vessel.

It's not pathetic since you know what you want and you are going to get it. Without having to waste your time with all that social and romantic bs.

If you want to go out and start a romantic relationship just so you can get real sex you’re fooling yourself. Sex is not love. Though you can be in love and have sex. When you aspire to create a romantic relationship there’s no guarantee you’ll get laid. With a prostitute if you want to get laid you pay your money and then you get laid. Then you get on with your life.

In a certain way you will always have to pay for sex, so why not just cut the chase?

I'm glad that worked out for you, but I'm not comfortable paying for sex, I'm not that desperate. To be very honest the sex part is not even on the top of my list of priorities, I just want to be loved and someone to be kind to me.

Is that asking too much?

[Icewraith]

I'm glad that worked out for you, but I'm not comfortable paying for sex, I'm not that desperate. To be very honest the sex part is not even on the top of my list of priorities, I just want to be loved and someone to be kind to me.

Is that asking too much?

Absent any other qualifications, no. That's perfectly reasonable.

Now, if you have other unstated qualifications... possibly involving things like gender, orientation, sexual compatibility, looks, social status, wealth, personality, profession, health, religion, or any of the other factors that end up mattering when it comes to human pair bonding and romantic relationships (taste in music, political affiliation, hygeine)... if you don't meet your own standards, yes. Otherwise you end up like this:

"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member" -Groucho Marx

[Comrade]

*happy dance* :smile:

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/cylanarid/20170712_150618_zps6ddc5s8f.jpg
Congratulations!


I'm glad that worked out for you, but I'm not comfortable paying for sex, I'm not that desperate. To be very honest the sex part is not even on the top of my list of priorities, I just want to be loved and someone to be kind to me.

Is that asking too much?

It's not, no, but the fact is, if you want to start dating, you need to take a hard look at yourself and be willing to improve in critical areas. Icewraith brought up elements that will influence compatibility but aren't necessarily things you can just will yourself to change-- religion, politics, certain immutable physical traits, these are all things that might affect your compatibility with somebody through no fault or doing of your own. On the other hand, there are the things that you can (and sometimes should) change: Icewraith, for example, brought up hygiene. Another big one? Confidence. As somebody who dealt with abysmal self-esteem for a while, I think it's a really, really bad idea to wade into the dating pool until you've worked on your self-esteem and become more confident in yourself, because a. low self-esteem can sabotage a relationship (romantic or otherwise) and you don't want that, and b. it's simply not a desirable trait. If you want love and kindness, you need to act like you know you deserve love and kindness. It sounds like empty platitudes, but it's true. And besides, working on your self-esteem will improve your life in countless other ways outside of the romantic/attraction aspect.

That's my advice, at least. I know what it's like to have low self-esteem and I know it's not an easy thing to shake off, but self-confidence is critical in dating.

[Lissou]

*happy dance* :smile:

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/cylanarid/20170712_150618_zps6ddc5s8f.jpg

Yay! It looks great, and so do you (I always seem to look my worst on IDs, good to see it's not the care for everyone). I'm really hyped about it, actually. Just seeing this gives me a lot of hope for the world, which I needed right now. Thanks so much for sharing!

[137beth]

*happy dance* :smile:

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a459/cylanarid/20170712_150618_zps6ddc5s8f.jpg

I'm not seeing anything in that image:smallconfused:

[Lycunadari]

X-cited? :D

X-actly!


Yay! It looks great, and so do you (I always seem to look my worst on IDs, good to see it's not the care for everyone). I'm really hyped about it, actually. Just seeing this gives me a lot of hope for the world, which I needed right now. Thanks so much for sharing!
:smallsmile:

I'm not seeing anything in that image:smallconfused:

Ah, seems like whatever photobucket is doing that deactivates people's avatars is now happening to me, too.

http://i.imgur.com/CS76ZWq.jpg

[WarKitty]

PSA for transfolk and other non-gender-conforming individuals:

I've been hanging on on reddit r/abrathatfits. There are people there who are knowledgeable in trans issues. They have some good discussions on general difference between, for example, cis lady and trans lady breasts, and what bras are good for trans ladies. There's also a few binding experts around.

The mod team is generally pretty good at keeping the posts themselves safe. That said, it is reddit, and subreddit mod teams cannot prevent people from viewing posts or from private messaging users. There have been reports of creepy or harassing PM's, and reddit's mod team has been uninterested in dealing with them.

[Astrella]

PSA for transfolk and other non-gender-conforming individuals:

I've been hanging on on reddit r/abrathatfits. There are people there who are knowledgeable in trans issues. They have some good discussions on general difference between, for example, cis lady and trans lady breasts, and what bras are good for trans ladies. There's also a few binding experts around.

The mod team is generally pretty good at keeping the posts themselves safe. That said, it is reddit, and subreddit mod teams cannot prevent people from viewing posts or from private messaging users. There have been reports of creepy or harassing PM's, and reddit's mod team has been uninterested in dealing with them.

I should really check that out; I don't think any of my current bras really fit amazingly, especially with losing quite a bit of weight recently.

[Nat_Zero]

X-actly!


Oh my goodness! I'm jealous of your ID. I wish I could get an X here in the US. :( Also you look really cute in your picture!

Also, I totally get what you mean about style in your response to my earlier post. I've just started buying and wearing whatever I end up liking no matter where it comes from in the store.


There has been a sudden rash of transphobic comments from my wife's coworkers lately. She's overheard such gems as:

"If she gives you any trouble, remember she's not really a woman."

"What he's doing is wicked."

"I'm not using the bathroom when he's in there." This was said after the person in question peeked through the stall door while she was inside.

I'm really frustrated that there's nothing I can do about it since I don't work there. She's currently hoping to find a new job soon for obvious reasons. I've also suggested she speak to HR, though she said she'd have to get more evidence first. There's also been a big shakeup at work lately that led to about 19 people getting let go, so hopefully some of the nasty ones will get put out with them. Still frustrated that I can't directly deal with it, but I have made sure I'm there for her when she needs me.

That sucks and those people are terrible, but it sounds like you are doing the right things! Remind her that there are lots of people in the world who are good and support her. :)


PSA for transfolk and other non-gender-conforming individuals:

I've been hanging on on reddit r/abrathatfits. There are people there who are knowledgeable in trans issues. They have some good discussions on general difference between, for example, cis lady and trans lady breasts, and what bras are good for trans ladies. There's also a few binding experts around.

The mod team is generally pretty good at keeping the posts themselves safe. That said, it is reddit, and subreddit mod teams cannot prevent people from viewing posts or from private messaging users. There have been reports of creepy or harassing PM's, and reddit's mod team has been uninterested in dealing with them.

I’ve been around that sub reddit as well and found it quite useful in the past!

[Togath]

So I heard today the London subways will be replacing "Ladies and gentlemen" in announcements with "Hello Everyone"...
Like, I get they're trying to be supportive of lgbtai+ stuff, but... I really doubt anyone is offended, given "Ladies and Gentlemen" is more a phrase than some specific statement of anyone's gender. Also at least to my American ears, "Hello Everyone" sounds both super bland and super cheesy.:smallconfused:
Do more people find the old phrase(Ladies and gentlemen) offensive than I think? Or is it just a case of "trying to be polite and overdoing it"?

[The Extinguisher]

So I heard today the London subways will be replacing "Ladies and gentlemen" in announcements with "Hello Everyone"...
Like, I get they're trying to be supportive of lgbtai+ stuff, but... I really doubt anyone is offended, given "Ladies and Gentlemen" is more a phrase than some specific statement of anyone's gender. Also at least to my American ears, "Hello Everyone" sounds both super bland and super cheesy.:smallconfused:
Do more people find the old phrase(Ladies and gentlemen) offensive than I think? Or is it just a case of "trying to be polite and overdoing it"?

I think it's more just understanding that people can be more than just 'ladies' or 'gentlemen' and being inclusive doesn't cost them anything :/

[Togath]

Yeah, but... is the phrase "Ladies and Gentlemen" really that non inclusive? Like, even if it is, wouldn't adding something like "and other people/citizens/fine folks/etc" make more sense than changing to "Hello everyone"? It just seems strange. Like, "ladies and gentlemen" sounds like a posh fancy announcer of some event, while "hello everyone" sounds like a half asleep radio announcer. >_<

[Jormengand]

Yeah, but... is the phrase "Ladies and Gentlemen" really that non inclusive?

Yes, like of people who are neither ladies nor gentlemen.

EDIT: Also "And other people" would both sound rude, and cause even more butthurt cis people to complain that we're "Shoving our transness down their throats." No thanks.

[noparlpf]

X-actly!

:smallsmile:

Ah, seems like whatever photobucket is doing that deactivates people's avatars is now happening to me, too.

http://i.imgur.com/CS76ZWq.jpg

Nice. Congrats!


Yeah, but... is the phrase "Ladies and Gentlemen" really that non inclusive? Like, even if it is, wouldn't adding something like "and other people/citizens/fine folks/etc" make more sense than changing to "Hello everyone"? It just seems strange. Like, "ladies and gentlemen" sounds like a posh fancy announcer of some event, while "hello everyone" sounds like a half asleep radio announcer. >_<

Well, aside from excluding nonbinary people...

Besides, I've always thought it sounds too stiff and old-fashioned. I'm definitely not a gentleman. I don't really get why they need to preface those announcements like that anyway; who else would they be addressing besides the passengers?

[Togath]

But, like, it sounds so fancy!..
Then again I think anything old fashioned sounding said by a British person sounds fancy and neat.:smallredface:
I maaaybe have a slight fetish for accents.

[Trekkin]

But, like, it sounds so fancy!..
Then again I think anything old fashioned sounding said by a British person sounds fancy and neat.:smallredface:
I maaaybe have a slight fetish for accents.

Well, perhaps "Your Attention, Please" would be a sufficiently fancy alternative, then? Then again, "Oi, you lot!" might be more appropriate depending on the content of the announcement.

I agree that it's a wholly idiomatic phrase, but since it really only exists to be fancy noise anyway, why exclude anyone at all? Its purpose would be as well served by a chime or a whistle or literally any other noise, so if even one person feels offended and we lose nothing by changing it, why not?

[Nat_Zero]

But, like, it sounds so fancy!..
Then again I think anything old fashioned sounding said by a British person sounds fancy and neat.:smallredface:
I maaaybe have a slight fetish for accents.

Unfortunately a lot of old fashioned/fancy phrases are highly gendered and very uncomfortable for us non-binary folks. See: sir/ma'aam, miss/mister in addition to "ladies and gentlemen". I'm happy that they're changing it. I appreciate the small changes like that that harm no one and allow more folks to be included.


I don't really get why they need to preface those announcements like that anyway; who else would they be addressing besides the passengers?


Its purpose would be as well served by a chime or a whistle or literally any other noise, so if even one person feels offended and we lose nothing by changing it, why not?

Agreed. I like the announcements on Japanese trains. They're just prefaced with a cute musical tone.

[noparlpf]

I'm pretty sure I've been on trains that used a chime or something like "your attention, please" too.

[Chen]

I'm pretty sure I've been on trains that used a chime or something like "your attention, please" too.

Yup that one sounds fairly formal and still inclusive (well non-excluding anyways). "Hello everyone" just sounds way too informal and weird for a general anouncement.

[Togath]

Thinking back, "Your attention please" is actually what I always associate with trains... "ladies and gentlemen" seems more like a racing or circus announcer. :smallconfused:
I mean, unless you're seeing which train flies furthest when launched out of a cannon, it seems kind of odd.
I do still feel like "Hello everyone" does feel almost weirdly informal, given the already existing more formal options with full gender neutrality. Then again, maybe they were trying to be unique for... ...um... reasons? I mean, "Your attention please" seems like 99.99% of announcements, and it works fine it seemed like. And if going for unique, "Greetings thingummywuts!" seems a lot more unique than "Hello everyone" while also making you sound like a friendly wizard.:smalltongue:

[lio45]

Unfortunately a lot of old fashioned/fancy phrases are highly gendered and very uncomfortable for us non-binary folks.

I've had a question for a while, never got a chance to ask - am I correct in assuming that you guys' ideal world would never have any case of separate gender categories, be it for bathrooms or the Olympics or pro teams?

Genuine question, no right or wrong answer. It would mean the end of female athletes getting medals in many fields, however. (Which doesn't really seem like such a big price to pay in the grand scheme of things.)

[Comrade]

I would say so. The playing field can't be truly leveled if the parties aren't playing on the same field.

[AliceLost]

I've had a question for a while, never got a chance to ask - am I correct in assuming that you guys' ideal world would never have any case of separate gender categories, be it for bathrooms or the Olympics or pro teams?

Genuine question, no right or wrong answer. It would mean the end of female athletes getting medals in many fields, however. (Which doesn't really seem like such a big price to pay in the grand scheme of things.)

I believe most people's ideal is a world in which there are never any separate gender categories, yes. Separate categories based on biological sex may yet remain a necessity (gynecologists and proctologists, for example), but in that theoretical world there should be no gendered association between gender and sex, and both men and women could freely visit the gynecologist without issue. Working out which of our segregations in the current world are truly based on biological sex, and for good reason, is likely going to quickly derail, but I'd say that most of them probably have viable alternatives. Bathrooms, for example, have been separate based on sex for a very long time now, but without good reason, and as gender-neutral bathrooms show, you can let people with different bits pee together without issue.

The Olympic sports point is one that has many perspectives, including the idea that competitive sports like that don't serve much purpose anyway (not sure I agree with that), or that new categories could be created based on ability, rather than sex (which is just used as a marker for ability anyway). Your top level male athletes are going to be better than your top level female athletes, but your top level female athletes are going to do better than some random guy with no training, so it's not solely an issue of how much testosterone you have. I'll readily agree that figuring that out would take time and thought, but I have faith that the Olympic committee could come up with something.

[Siosilvar]

It's not like there isn't precedent in sports itself, either. There are mixed doubles tennis tournaments where each team has one player from the two binary genders, for instance.

[lio45]

It's not like there isn't precedent in sports itself, either. There are mixed doubles tennis tournaments where each team has one player from the two binary genders, for instance.

That's not a precedent at all - it's the exact same concept of distinct, strict gender categories as the rest of the pro sports world.

You'd have a point if those tournaments were double tennis with two people against two other people. That would be what we're talking about.

[CWater]

Yeah, but... is the phrase "Ladies and Gentlemen" really that non inclusive? Like, even if it is, wouldn't adding something like "and other people/citizens/fine folks/etc" make more sense than changing to "Hello everyone"? It just seems strange. Like, "ladies and gentlemen" sounds like a posh fancy announcer of some event, while "hello everyone" sounds like a half asleep radio announcer. >_<
I actually feel excluded by that phrase, yes. However, 'Ladies, Gentlemen and Others' is fine with me.

For the trains though, I vote for 'Your Attention, Please', spoken in a very posh accent.:smalltongue:


It's not like there isn't precedent in sports itself, either. There are mixed doubles tennis tournaments where each team has one player from the two binary genders, for instance.

Yeah, but those have specifically one man and one woman on each team, not 'any two people', so it's not really the same thing as unisex competition. I don't think there is a very good solution here, other than maybe get more people to acknowledge that sex and gender are not the same thing.

[Trekkin]

I'll readily agree that figuring that out would take time and thought, but I have faith that the Olympic committee could come up with something.

Just auctioning off the medals directly, perhaps?

Or perhaps abandoning all pretense and just rebranding the whole event as a pharmacology symposium?

[JusticeZero]

I've had a question for a while, never got a chance to ask - am I correct in assuming that you guys' ideal world would never have any case of separate gender categories, be it for bathrooms or the Olympics or pro teams?
No. Goodness no.

I pass. I went androgynous, with voice training in place, and for awhile there people called me "Sir". After some time, with aggressive androgyny in my clothing choices and refusing to offer any language clues, people started getting uncertain... so I threw on a skirt and a blouse and lipstick and suddenly it was "Ma'am" everywhere I went. That was at about five months on HRT.

My husband? Has been on T for nine months. His voice has dropped. He gets sirred on the phone. He wears very masculine clothes. Every time we go out? "Have a good day, ladies!" "Hello, ladies, what can I do for you?" Everybody just reads him as a lesbian... because there just are no clothing choices he can make that are out of bounds for a woman to wear. He can not do anything with his presentation to cue anybody to make that jump, so he has to wait until his beard darkens... which takes AGES. He doesn't even like beards!
Just make a couple of pieces of clothing that no woman would be caught dead wearing, HE WILL WEAR THE HECK OUT OF THEM just so he can signal his gender with something other than his chest, height, and hip size.

Bathrooms? Unisex.
Olympics? Keep the gender classifications, but poor Caster is still going to be confusing. But we allow unusually tall athletes, etc, so... Hyponormal is maaaaybe a little bit low to set the T target at, though.

[Asmodean_]

My only wish is that on April 1, all London Underground announcements are preceded by Rob Beckett going "OI YOU LOT"

[Lycunadari]

So I heard today the London subways will be replacing "Ladies and gentlemen" in announcements with "Hello Everyone"...
Like, I get they're trying to be supportive of lgbtai+ stuff, but... I really doubt anyone is offended, given "Ladies and Gentlemen" is more a phrase than some specific statement of anyone's gender. Also at least to my American ears, "Hello Everyone" sounds both super bland and super cheesy.:smallconfused:
Do more people find the old phrase(Ladies and gentlemen) offensive than I think? Or is it just a case of "trying to be polite and overdoing it"?
"Hello everyone" sounds a bit clunky, but I'm always happy about things being changed to be more inclusive, because everytime I hear stuff like "ladies and gentlemen" and other things that only mention binary genders I'm reminded just how invisible people like me still are.


Oh my goodness! I'm jealous of your ID. I wish I could get an X here in the US. :( Also you look really cute in your picture!

Also, I totally get what you mean about style in your response to my earlier post. I've just started buying and wearing whatever I end up liking no matter where it comes from in the store.

It's sadly not my official ID (that has still my old name and assigned gender, and probably will for the foreseeable future), but it is a nice step that let's me use my new name at least sometimes (and I'll probably still need my official ID a lot because the Ergänzungsausweis doesn't have all the information, like my birthday).

And thanks! I actually got a new haircut last week, so I look a bit different now ^_^

https://68.media.tumblr.com/0be96d800cd442c5ac19703b6deb6cc4/tumblr_ot2pcwRUR01tltvv4o1_540.jpg

[2D8HP]

My only wish is that on April 1, all London Underground announcements are preceded by Rob Beckett going "OI YOU LOT"


Oh that sounds AWESOME!


, I vote for 'Your Attention, Please', spoken in a very posh accent.:smalltongue:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wram5rPEQbQ (despite the connotations I find it quite toe-taping)

[Nat_Zero]

I've had a question for a while, never got a chance to ask - am I correct in assuming that you guys' ideal world would never have any case of separate gender categories, be it for bathrooms or the Olympics or pro teams?


The word "categories" there is a little confusing. My ideal world will still have people of all gender identities identifying however they wish- I certainly don't want to make everyone be non-binary! However I would love a world where people don't make assumptions about people's gender based on the way they look, and generally think it would be great if people stopped using gendered language based on assumptions.

Instead I would prefer that people who you interact with in passing (waiters, announcers, clerks...) would use gender-neutral language like "Your attention please" or "Good morning folks" etc. In the case of people who you interact with regularly (co-workers, family, friends, classmates...) I wish that people would ask you your pronouns and preferred forms of address, and that it wouldn't be a big deal.

For bathrooms, yeah I totally want all bathrooms to be genderless bathrooms. It's weird to me that where I live at least they've only just begun switching single stall bathrooms from "Men" and "Women" signage to just "Bathroom" signage. I don't care much for sports, but I think that divisions based on some other category like weight/height/ability would be perfectly fine.



It's sadly not my official ID (that has still my old name and assigned gender, and probably will for the foreseeable future), but it is a nice step that let's me use my new name at least sometimes (and I'll probably still need my official ID a lot because the Ergänzungsausweis doesn't have all the information, like my birthday).

And thanks! I actually got a new haircut last week, so I look a bit different now ^_^

https://68.media.tumblr.com/0be96d800cd442c5ac19703b6deb6cc4/tumblr_ot2pcwRUR01tltvv4o1_540.jpg

That is a nice step! Some states are allowing an X on official ID, but I think it's only one or two now. Also, yup, still cute.

[Jormengand]

My only wish is that on April 1, all London Underground announcements are preceded by Rob Beckett going "OI YOU LOT"

All London Underground announcements should be done by the announcer from the Stanley Parable.

[Asmodean_]

All London Underground announcements should be done by the announcer from the Stanley Parable.

Oh, did u take the Broom Closet line? Theb room closet line was my favrite!! XD

[Jormengand]

Oh, did u take the Broom Closet line? Theb room closet line was my favrite!! XD

"Hello everyone. Please be aware that there are delays on the mind control line, the parking lot line, and the falling to your death in an attempt to prove that you have a level of control over the story line. There is a good service on all other lines."

[Lentrax]

I hate my life.

That is all.

[Trekkin]

I hate my life.

That is all.

Well, then I really hope you feel better soon, and if you want to talk we're all here for you.

[John Cribati]

I feel like I should be happy that, at least in America, a good number of people have a fictional character they can compare me to when I say I'm asexual.

But on the other hand, that character is Sheldon Cooper and every time someone says that I die a little on the inside.

As for gender, I feel like I'm the equivalent of an atheist when it comes to that. Like... obviously the idea of gender is there in pretty much every culture but there are so many expressions of it that it feels... fake?

[The Extinguisher]

I feel like I should be happy that, at least in America, a good number of people have a fictional character they can compare me to when I say I'm asexual.

But on the other hand, that character is Sheldon Cooper and every time someone says that I die a little on the inside.

As for gender, I feel like I'm the equivalent of an atheist when it comes to that. Like... obviously the idea of gender is there in pretty much every culture but there are so many expressions of it that it feels... fake?

My best friend is the same way. And it doesn't help that they are also taller and have a similar, face shape, so they get the comparison a lot. They hate it.

I'm really struggling on whether or not to go to Pride today. I don't know anyone here (I just moved), and I'm bad at talking and meeting people. But I feel like not going is bad, and it's not like it's unsafe for me to go.
:/

[JusticeZero]

I'm really struggling on whether or not to go to Pride today. I don't know anyone here (I just moved), and I'm bad at talking and meeting people.
Isn't that basically why you should go..? To meet people? It's easy to talk to people at Pride.

[Lycunadari]

I just wrote a long coming out email to my godfather. :smalleek:

[JusticeZero]

I just wrote a long coming out email to my godfather. :smalleek:
Goodness! How are you feeling now? *hugs a bunch*

I'm just sitting around simmering in dysphoria, myself. Sick equals sitting around being introspective equals probably not my best idea ever, neither was talking to a cis girl because cis girls always start talking periods with me for some unfathomable reason. *jealous*
I wish I knew how to help with the coming outing parts. I never found a good way to do that. I've more or less run out of people to fumble through it though.. and nowadays it's pretty severely obvious on sight anyways.

[JNAProductions]

I just wrote a long coming out email to my godfather. :smalleek:

*Offers hugs*

Good luck! I hope that your godfather is supportive about it!


Goodness! How are you feeling now? *hugs a bunch*

I'm just sitting around simmering in dysphoria, myself. Sick equals sitting around being introspective equals probably not my best idea ever, neither was talking to a cis girl because cis girls always start talking periods with me for some unfathomable reason. *jealous*
I wish I knew how to help with the coming outing parts. I never found a good way to do that. I've more or less run out of people to fumble through it though.. and nowadays it's pretty severely obvious on sight anyways.

*Offers hugs as well*

Maybe feel fortunate that you don't have to deal with the bleeding and pain? Regardless, though, you've got my sympathy. And know that you are 100% a woman, even if your biology ain't realizing that.

[Sobol]

A website which procedurally generates random motivational quotes:

http://inspirobot.me/

Some are unexpectedly profound.

https://emshort.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/alcohol.jpg

[ArlEammon]

I just wrote a long coming out email to my godfather. :smalleek:

God father? I hope he doesn't shoot you, give you cement shoes or make you an offer you can't refuse.

[Lycunadari]

Goodness! How are you feeling now? *hugs a bunch*

I'm just sitting around simmering in dysphoria, myself. Sick equals sitting around being introspective equals probably not my best idea ever, neither was talking to a cis girl because cis girls always start talking periods with me for some unfathomable reason. *jealous*
I wish I knew how to help with the coming outing parts. I never found a good way to do that. I've more or less run out of people to fumble through it though.. and nowadays it's pretty severely obvious on sight anyways.
I'm doing okay - nervous, of course, but okay.

*offers hugs* Dysphoria sucks (as do periods, but I get where you're coming from). Can you distract yourself with anything? Reading or playing video games or something?
Yeah, coming out is hard. For some reason I thought I should come out to people in person if possible, but a friend convinced me that writing a letter might be a better idea, and I have to agree that it is much less stressful this way. (I was a sobbing mess when I came out to my mum in person, anything is better than that.)



*Offers hugs*

Good luck! I hope that your godfather is supportive about it!

Thanks! I don't really know what to expect from him - I don't think he'll be outright hostile or anything, but from "stop being deluded" to super supportive everything is possible.



God father? I hope he doesn't shoot you, give you cement shoes or make you an offer you can't refuse.
Is that a reference to something? 'Cause joking about a trans person being shot after coming out would be in pretty bad taste.



A website which procedurally generates random motivational quotes:

http://inspirobot.me/

Some are unexpectedly profound.

https://emshort.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/alcohol.jpg
Inspirobot is great, most of the quotes are really absurd, but occasionally it does produce really great ones.

http://generated.inspirobot.me/044/aXm4768xjU.jpg

[JusticeZero]

*offers hugs* Dysphoria sucks (as do periods, but I get where you're coming from). Can you distract yourself with anything? Reading or playing video games or something?I haven't had the energy or focus even for video games for the past couple days. it's pathetic..
Is that a reference to something? 'Cause joking about a trans person being shot after coming out would be in pretty bad taste. Movie reference to the movie "The Godfather" about Italian organized crime in America.

Maybe feel fortunate that you don't have to deal with the bleeding and pain? Regardless, though, you've got my sympathy. And know that you are 100% a woman, even if your biology ain't realizing that.
Yeah, let's just not go there. :smallannoyed: But thank you for trying.
It's just a vague nagging feeling of "Something was supposed to happen sometime in the last few weeks that didn't, something is wrong" added to that reminder of "You are the only one that has nothing to contribute to this conversation - you don't belong here" that bugs the heck out of me. When I say something about it, I get a whole bunch of bewildered looks, like why would I want to experience the same obnoxious things my friends do? And yeah I know they are obnoxious, I have had to deal with my husband fighting with them... doesn't make me feel better about the matter. uuugh.

[Jormengand]

Inspirobot is great, most of the quotes are really absurd, but occasionally it does produce really great ones.

"Don't aspire to romance. Why not just explore your body?"
"You don't need to be at the right place at the right time to create a movement."
"Only when you manage to comprehend the dark side of your true self will you actually discover ideas."
"Loneliness is lethal."
"Wait for others to follow. Or don't."
"Don't alienate strangers. Inspire others."
"Don't go away. Allow yourself to cry."
"Realising that you are a man is what makes you uncontrollable."
"Of course you are wanted. Of course you are dignified. Of course you are unique."
"Stay well. Be yourself."

"Board meetings are designed to be destroyed by free thinkers."
"A human brain is almost identical to an office building... awesome for everyone, except monkeys."
"Many people become tourists because they get free candy."
"Fight for hunger. Trust death."
"The geniuses who trust truth are not as bad as the geniuses who trust breasts."
"Don't worry about being on time for your shrinking awkwardness. Just jump up and down repeatedly."
"Kaleize. Looserization" [Sic in both cases!]
"If you are the only one enjoying the bedroom then you are the bedroom."
"Investigate the dark side."

[Sobol]

Relevant to D&D: "A vampire can be an ass, but an ass can't be a vampire."

I also like how sometimes the juxtaposition of text and image creates a new layer of meaning.

[The Extinguisher]

Isn't that basically why you should go..? To meet people? It's easy to talk to people at Pride.

I think you're underestimating just how Bad At Making Friends I am. :smalltongue:

But I did end up going and enjoying myself. I mostly sat around in the shade and just soaked in the gay energy but it's always such a feel good experience to see that many not straight people gathered together and having fun. And it was surprisingly not corporatized which was also nice to see.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, let's just not go there. :smallannoyed: But thank you for trying.
It's just a vague nagging feeling of "Something was supposed to happen sometime in the last few weeks that didn't, something is wrong" added to that reminder of "You are the only one that has nothing to contribute to this conversation - you don't belong here" that bugs the heck out of me. When I say something about it, I get a whole bunch of bewildered looks, like why would I want to experience the same obnoxious things my friends do? And yeah I know they are obnoxious, I have had to deal with my husband fighting with them... doesn't make me feel better about the matter. uuugh.

Sorry. :(

Regardless, you deserve to be a happy woman. So I hope nothing but good things for you.