Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found A Friend

[Blackhawk748]

Immolators were Sold out and removed from the Australia store for the last 5 months, so yeah, if you want some, get them while you can. Meanwhile Aus has always had exorcists available. Oh and they sold out of Veyridian, then came back with a new set and then sold out of those too, so While they may have only made a handful, I expect they were doubly surprised by the surge in demand.

Ya, ill order a pair when i try and grab Verydian again. I know the Excorisists are still there, i was just hoping theyed stop being metal, as those Organs are a freakin pain to assemble.

[Renegade Paladin]

Unofficial, but well worth a read: http://www.geocities.ws/Dasleahnomicron/FluffPages/iafemalespacemarines.html
Whoever wrote that really needs to do his homework. For starters:
This organ is responsible for the prolonging of the puberty stage of the recepient, so as to continue a steady creation of hormones required for other organs that need stimulation to work. As a side effect, this also results in increased fertility within the young female Marines, and leads to a heightened sexual awareness and prowess... Like all Marines, they are not forbidden reproduction, but it is normally discouraged, as the Chapter is fearful of the genetic stability of the offspring. (Note-this phenomenon must also be present with male Chapters, although as of yet they are reluctant to make any refernces to this point of their initiation)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI

Space Marines are sterile, and puberty doesn't create "prowess." Kid needs to grow up.
Unfortunatley, it appears that this organ has mutated from its original purpose, also aiding in the supply of oxygen to the blood by 'absorbing' some of it through the skin. It is then entirely possible for a female Space Marine to die of suffication if their entire body, externally, is deprived of oxygen for extended periods of time. They can operate normally for most combat purposes, but they rarely wear their armour outside of combat and formal occasions.
Been watching Goldfinger, much? Besides, even if it did work that way, that doesn't make their lungs less efficient. :smallsigh: What we have here is an excuse for his Marines to walk around sans armor/clothing, nothing more.

I'm not opposed to the idea of female Astartes on principle (the two lost legions could theoretically be that key, after all), but the idea can certainly be better written than that.

[Cheesegear]

Well, Servo-Skulls aren't in the new Imperial Agents book.
I have some hope, because Codex: Inquisition is still for sale, and, usually it would be taken down by now if it was going to be replaced. But, who knows?

It may be time to buy that Baal Predator Formation that I've been eyeing.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, Servo-Skulls aren't in the new Imperial Agents book.
I have some hope, because Codex: Inquisition is still for sale, and, usually it would be taken down by now if it was going to be replaced. But, who knows?

It may be time to buy that Baal Predator Formation that I've been eyeing.

Was just coming to post Frontline Gaming's Review (https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/10/codex-imperial-agents-review/). It doesnt say a ton but ya Servo Sulls are gone (and therefore i have multiple armies that have no way to scout block) and apparently the SoB Formation (the big one in the book) lets the army reroll saving throws of 1.......once per game. Oh and St Celestine isnt in the book, so ya.

I am not impressed, then again i expected very little.

Edit: I find it weird that we got all these leaks for Traitor Legions, but i cant find a single one about Imperial Agents.

[Forum Explorer]

Had a tournament at the FLGS today. Only houserule was 1 superheavy/gargantuan max. Malestrom Mission, randomly determined at the start of each round (one roll for everyone, so we all had the same mission)

I was one of two people who went undefeated. The other winner ran Dark Eldar, taking down a Tzeench Deamons list with popcorn horrors in the final round.

My army was tau:

CAD:
Commander-Irridium, Missiles, Marker Drones, TL, DC

6x Firewarriors
5x Firewarriors
10x Kroot w/ sniper

Riptide, IA, EWO, Stims
2x Crisis w/ Fusion
2x Crisis w/ Fusion

4x Marker Drones
Pirahna w/ Fusion, Sensors

Skyray w/ Sensors
Skyray w/ Sensors

Optimized Stealth Cadre:
Ghostkeel w/ Fusion, Stims, EWO
Stealth w/ Fusion
Stealth w/ Fusion


My first opponent had a gimicky Thousand Sons list:

CAD:
Ahriman

Thousand Suns
Tzangors

Magnus

Knight Detachment:
Renegade Knight


I deployed first, and then for some reason he put magnus front and center right across from my stuff. So first turn I toasted him with my skyrays. It helped that he failed 7 out of 8 or 9 4+ invuln saves. Even so, I had my Kroot and Stealth Cadre all ready to help take him down.

That pretty well took the wind out of his sails, but he held on for a bit by having Ahriman throw invisibility on his Knight. Unfortunately for him I took out Ahriman turn 2 after he split off from the Sons squad so it could go grab an objective while he kept up with the Knight.

Turn 3 I finished the Knight off with Markerlights plus One crisis drop squad, and also finished off the rest of his stuff.

My second opponent ran a scary Mechanized Iron hands list that beat a Tyranid/Cult army first round:

CAD:
Chapter Master, Bike, Chains, Thunder Hammer

Marines, Razorback w/ Las
Marines, Razorback w/ Las

Command Squad, Bikes, Thunder Hammers, Sheilds, Apothecary

Vindicator
Predator, Max Las

Knight Detachment:
Knight


I was scared of his vindicator, but after I managed to seize the initiative, my Ghostkeel got a weapon destroyed on it. Otherwise in my first turn I managed to burst one razorback with my Pirahna rolling a 5-6-6 to hit, pen, explode. My riptide then took out four of the five marines that were inside. My skyrays took off 1 hull point from the knight.

His first turn he used all his shooting to take one hull point off my pirahna (Jink lol). He had to finish it off by charging with his knight, which was fortunate since I had moved my riptide too far forward and the pirahna was the only thing stopping the knight from toasting my riptide (it was right in between them). His Bike Deathstar took out one squad of stealth suits.

Then on my turn 2 my crisis suits came in. Again Markerlights plus one crisis squad did in the Knight. My ghostkeel popped his Predator. At that point he conceded. I was a bit surprised, but he did point out that I still had tons of units and would shortly be finishing off all his non-deathstar stuff, and since it was malestrom, I would be racking up points on all the objectives while he would not be able to kill more than one unit a turn.

My third opponent had another gimicky list. Because of numbers, he actually was 1-1, while the two other 2-0 people played each other.

Librarius Conclave:
Tigurius
Librarian, Termi Armor
Librarian

Assasin:
Culexus

Knight Detachment:
Knight

Flyer Formation:
Stormraven
Stormtalon
Stormtalon


Again I managed to seize the initiative, second time in a row. Put 2 wounds on his assassin with my infantry. More importantly I had some stealth suits that had infiltrated to the back of his deployment zone who poped out and ganked tigurius, who had rolled invisibility. Fusion blasters will do that when you run each librarian as his own unit. The Riptide had tried, but his blast scattered and just took a hull point off the knight.

His turn the Culexus wiped a firewarrior squad and the Knight ineffectively battlecannoned my commander who tanked all the hits on his 2+ (the drones were spread out, so he only got 5 hits total with the 2 large blasts).

My turn 2 I finished off the culexus. As before, I took out the knight with markerlights and one volley from a fusion crisis squad. The knight blowing up took out his other two librarians; it also took out my other crisis suits, but at that point it was moot since he was tabled. Except I just realized tabling happens at the end of the two player turns, so we actually should have seen if his fliers came in. But I was sitting on all the objectives and my skyrays still had full missile racks, so, probably would have not changed things.

Overall a good time, and deep-striking fusion crisis suits are definitely MVP.

What a weird tourny. A Liberius Conclave with no other infantry? (That apparently went 1-1 as well), every team having a Knight (okay, that's not that unusual) but taking a Culexus with a Librarian Conclave is.


Was just coming to post Frontline Gaming's Review (https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/10/codex-imperial-agents-review/). It doesnt say a ton but ya Servo Sulls are gone (and therefore i have multiple armies that have no way to scout block) and apparently the SoB Formation (the big one in the book) lets the army reroll saving throws of 1.......once per game. Oh and St Celestine isnt in the book, so ya.

I am not impressed, then again i expected very little.

Edit: I find it weird that we got all these leaks for Traitor Legions, but i cant find a single one about Imperial Agents.


I don't mind Servo Skulls being gone, in my mind it's just another toy that the Imperium no longer gets to use against everyone else who isn't lucky enough to be playing some sort of human.

St. Celestine being gone is sad though. She was a fine character.

[boomwolf]

No Saint?

Wow. This is just pissing on the loyal sororitas players harder than the fact they STILL got no models aside of metal mishmash of guns.

[Cheesegear]

(and therefore i have multiple armies that have no way to scout block)

What armies do you have again?


Edit: I find it weird that we got all these leaks for Traitor Legions, but i cant find a single one about Imperial Agents.

They got in trouble for Traitor Legions since they allegedly botched the embargo date. Since I know that FLG is now getting legitimate advanced copies from GW, I'm no longer calling them 'leaks', and they are in fact, regular press... Which is still a huge improvement on GW's 2016. As a business, they're doing a lot of things right this year. As a Rules Company, nearly everything they do is wrong. :smallmad:

[Drasius]

As a business, they're doing a lot of things right this year. As a Rules Company, nearly everything they do is wrong. :smallmad:

My primary army is Thousand Sons, one of my secondary armies is SoB (with Celestine being my only sisters HQ choice and model), my Skyhammer relies on Servo skulls to make the ASM not suck horribly. This has not been a good 4 weeks for me. Like, at all. Maybe I should just give up and collect nothing but vanilla marines, then I might have a chance at not getting absolutely shafted at every turn.

Maybe I'll get some deathwatch to flesh out my sisters army to 1850, they're marines, they won't get nerfed, right?

[lord_khaine]

Had a tournament at the FLGS today. Only houserule was 1 superheavy/gargantuan max. Malestrom Mission, randomly determined at the start of each round (one roll for everyone, so we all had the same mission)

I was one of two people who went undefeated. The other winner ran Dark Eldar, taking down a Tzeench Deamons list with popcorn horrors in the final round.

Nice reading, sounds like you had fun. Even if the lists you fought did seem rather gimicky :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Cult Mechanicus still has servo-skulls, yes? Perhaps the tax will just go up to "One enginseer" rather than "one inquisitor"

[Cheesegear]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Cult Mechanicus still has servo-skulls, yes?

Not likely.
Codex: CM has Infoslave Skulls, which barely do anything, and Scryerskulls, which identify Mysterious Objectives even when you're not on them - so they barely do anything, hur, hur, hur.

However, the important noun from FLG's report is Enginseer, not 'Dominus'. Which, to me, says "It's the Imperial Guard one, not the good one."

[LeSwordfish]

Ah, my apologies. Still, much as the continued marginalisation of the Thousand Sons and Sisters of Battle is criminal, I find it hard to weep for the imperium only getting nine hundred and ninety nine fundamentally tax-free advantages over everything else.

On another note, a Night Lords daemon prince of Nurgle can take the Stormbolt Plate and be 2+/3+ cover in the open (2+/2+ turn one if you take the mfd.). Daemon Princes are Veterans of the Long War of course, so get all the benefits and relics from the Traitor Legions.

[Wraith]

Edit: I find it weird that we got all these leaks for Traitor Legions, but i cant find a single one about Imperial Agents.

There's lots of stuff on Bell of Lost Souls (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/12/codex-imperial-agents-contents-sororitas-rules.html), if you haven't already found another source for it.

Just please be wary, as my Ad-Block and my mobile phone's antivirus REALLY don't like BoLS and I don't want to send anyone there without fair warning.

Similarly, the BoLS staff have apparently never read a GW Codex before, as their analysis of the contents varies from bizarre to just plain incorrect. Read it for yourself and be prepared to fact-check a lot. :smallannoyed:

[Blackhawk748]

What armies do you have again?

In no real order: Sisters of Battle, Orks, Tzeentch Daemons (built from their old codex so they dont work right anymore) Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus, a mess of Chaos Marines that i use for HoR Kill Team, and some Tyranids and Ultramarines.

The last two aren't really armies anymore as they where 1000 point forces back in 4th, so they have no focus anymore.

Out of all these armies only the Skitarii can Scout Block unless i get lucky on Strategic.


I don't mind Servo Skulls being gone, in my mind it's just another toy that the Imperium no longer gets to use against everyone else who isn't lucky enough to be playing some sort of human.

St. Celestine being gone is sad though. She was a fine character.

And all the AoC who would nab an Inquisitor and just keep him in Reserve. Im pretty sure that was one of the only things keeping the Kahn Gladius in check (besides Eldar)


Not likely.
Codex: CM has Infoslave Skulls, which barely do anything, and Scryerskulls, which identify Mysterious Objectives even when you're not on them - so they barely do anything, hur, hur, hur.

However, the important noun from FLG's report is Enginseer, not 'Dominus'. Which, to me, says "It's the Imperial Guard one, not the good one."

Infoslave gets you +1 Leaderrship and Acute Senses, which does plenty with the Skitarii, not much for the Cult.

Scyerskulls just let you ID Objectives, partners nice with the Relic Skull though cuz then you get to reroll if you dont like it.

Ya, im guessing a 2W Imp Guard Tech Priest.


There's lots of stuff on Bell of Lost Souls (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/12/codex-imperial-agents-contents-sororitas-rules.html), if you haven't already found another source for it.

Just please be wary, as my Ad-Block and my mobile phone's antivirus REALLY don't like BoLS and I don't want to send anyone there without fair warning.

Similarly, the BoLS staff have apparently never read a GW Codex before, as their analysis of the contents varies from bizarre to just plain incorrect. Read it for yourself and be prepared to fact-check a lot. :smallannoyed:

Thanks for the link. It also reminds me that i heard (on Dakka) that one of the Formations give Sisters Shield of Faith as their bonus. I have no idea where they heard that from, but if true im gonna lose my collective ****

Edit: So upon further inspection, this book is apparently the SoB "Revised and updated" meaning that Celestine is out, for good. Why does that wording matter? Because up until they said that, you could still use their 6th ed Digital Book to run Celestine, cuz we werent sure if this replaced the Digital edition, well it does. So they give us an update, one stupid Formation and take away the most used HQ choice. Good job GW, good Job. 1 step forwards and 3 back.

I just hope the rumors of a Sisters release in 2017 are true, cuz if it aint im not giving GW any more money.

[Cheesegear]

Sisters of Battle

Sounds like you need more Dominions.
Or, for AoI, a 10th Company Task Force is 165 Points.


Orks

Sounds like you need more Deffkoptas.


Tzeentch Daemons

Nurglings are 45 for a unit.


Out of all these armies only the Skitarii can Scout Block unless i get lucky on Strategic.

Only because you aren't including things specifically for blocking. If Scouting is a problem for you - defensively - then you just need to include something in your list. What made Servo-Skulls so good was a) You could plant them anywhere, example, right in front of their DZ, and b) 34 Points.

The only difference is that now you have to pay more points, and they're less good. That does not mean that you don't need to Scout Block.


Im pretty sure that was one of the only things keeping the Kahn Gladius in check (besides Eldar)

No. It was just the cheapest, and therefore the best/easiest way.
Callidus Assassins don't deploy with the rest of your AoC army, and they completely screw your opponent's ability to Infiltrate/Scout.


cuz if it aint im not giving GW any more money.

You shouldn't be anyway, until we know more about 8th.

[Blackhawk748]

Sounds like you need more Dominions.
Or, for AoI, a 10th Company Task Force is 165 Points.

My Dominions are busy Outflanking in their Immolaters


Sounds like you need more Deffkoptas.

What so my opponents Vindis can blast them out of the sky before they do anything, cuz thats what will happen.


Nurglings are 45 for a unit.

Its Mono Tzeentch, and i did say it was outdated.


No. It was just the cheapest, and therefore the best/easiest way.
Callidus Assassins don't deploy with the rest of your AoC army, and they completely screw your opponent's ability to Infiltrate/Scout.

And they're like 200 points, no thanks.



You shouldn't be anyway, until we know more about 8th.

No, i mean ever. If they screw the Sisters again, GW can go straight to hell, cuz im sick of having armies i love get screwed cuz they arent Marines.

[Cheesegear]

My Dominions are busy Outflanking in their Immolaters

But Scouting is so much better.


What so my opponents Vindis can blast them out of the sky before they do anything, cuz thats what will happen.

Jink. Or get more. #Redundancy.


Its Mono Tzeentch, and i did say it was outdated.

So...Buy new models to keep up with the meta? Daemons aren't Eldar; The same two models wont solve all your problems every time.


And they're like 200 points, no thanks.

145. Less than a 10CTF.


cuz im sick of having armies i love get screwed cuz they arent Marines.

Sisters don't sell 'cause they're metal. They're (still) metal 'cause they don't sell.

[Blackhawk748]

But Scouting is so much better.

I need them to kill my opponents Vindicators, which are in the backfield, scouting wont do that because there's a wall of Rhinos/Razobacks in the way.


Jink. Or get more. #Redundancy.

They're 30 points a pop, that aint cheap. Hell id almost go with Kommandos, except they suck.



So...Buy new models to keep up with the meta? Daemons aren't Eldar; The same two models wont solve all your problems every time.


Oh i am painfully aware of this. My army is all Pink Horrors and Flamers, you know, things that used to actually do stuff.


145. Less than a 10CTF.

Huh, cheaper than i thought.




Sisters don't sell 'cause they're metal. They're (still) metal 'cause they don't sell.

I believe the Canoness selling out in like half an hour proves that people want Sisters, its why i have some (very, very, very small) hope that things will improve.

[Cheesegear]

I need them to kill my opponents Vindicators, which are in the backfield, scouting wont do that because there's a wall of Rhinos/Razobacks in the way.

Ally in some Space Marines in Drop Pods. Salamanders for preference, given the job description.


They're 30 points a pop, that aint cheap. Hell id almost go with Kommandos, except they suck.

If they're job is to Scout block, then they're doing their job. If you're playing Eternal War, you don't need to be Scout blocking, not really. Unless Baal Predators are a problem. In which case, there's exactly one Mission in Eternal War where Kill Points are a factor, and if you're playing Eternal War as Orks, you should be running Meganobz and Force Fields, which means that the AP3 on Baal Predators wouldn't do anything, an only serve to put the Tanks in Charge range of your Meganobz.


Oh i am painfully aware of this. My army is all Pink Horrors and Flamers, you know, things that used to actually do stuff.

Pink Horrors still do things...For Daemon Princes and Fateweaver. :smallwink:

[Blackhawk748]

Ally in some Space Marines in Drop Pods. Salamanders for preference, given the job description.

Then why am i even bothering to play Sisters?



If they're job is to Scout block, then they're doing their job. If you're playing Eternal War, you don't need to be Scout blocking, not really. Unless Baal Predators are a problem. In which case, there's exactly one Mission in Eternal War where Kill Points are a factor, and if you're playing Eternal War as Orks, you should be running Meganobz and Force Fields, which means that the AP3 on Baal Predators wouldn't do anything, an only serve to put the Tanks in Charge range of your Meganobz.

Im playing Maelstrom, if it was Eternal War id just bring the Invincible Stompa



Pink Horrors still do things...For Daemon Princes and Fateweaver. :smallwink:

You have just summed up my entire complaint with the Daemon Dex.

[Cheesegear]

Then why am i even bothering to play Sisters?

I don't know. I don't know why anyone's bothered to pick them up since that White Dwarf Codex came out in 2011. The only reason to have Sisters in your collection if you're in a 'serious' meta is if you accidentally had them from before 2011.

The only use out of Sisters to play them as bad Space Marines, or, play Count As Space Marines, which, I, personally, am totally fine with, 'cause otherwise guys in my meta wouldn't get any use out of their expensive, metal models, which isn't fair.


Im playing Maelstrom

x5 Scouting Battlewagons?

[Yaktan]

Nice reading, sounds like you had fun. Even if the lists you fought did seem rather gimicky :smalltongue:

Yeah, it was pretty fun. I think I played the only 3 lists that had Knights.

I was hoping for my last game to play the dark eldar or demons. The Dark Eldar player knew how to play malestrom and was running 5 or 6 raiders with dudes, a venom, a couple of ravagers, jetbikes, and one flier. It would have made a much more interesting game to try shooting down all his skimmers while both trying to grab all the objectives.

The Demons were mostly tzeench with a d-thirster thrown in for good measure.

The other 4 armies were:
Pure Tyranids with flyrants, carnifex in pod, mawlocs, etc. (went 1-2)

Tyranids/Genestealers (went 1-2, I am pretty sure he won his last game)

Eldar with no knight or jetbikes (he did have wraithguard and artillery) (went 2-1 I think, beating magnus the last round)

Red Imperial Fists with a thunderfire cannon and stormraven (went 0-3 I think)

[Drasius]

Red Imperial Fists with a thunderfire cannon and stormraven (went 0-3 I think)

See now I'm confused, caus fists and thunderfires are good but stormravens are bad, so it should have evened out a bit more than 0-3. In fact, how do you even lose 3 games in a row as marines?

Edit: Via Naftka

via Warhammer Community
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/11/coming-this-january-armoured-assault/
Coming this January – Armoured Assault
Breaking news on some new sets on the way this January:

Armoured Assault boxes combine a unit and their transport in a great value set. 12 armies are covered in total, even Tyranids (though in this case, it’s less “armoured assault” and more “carapaced spawning” containing as it does a Tervigon, and her brood of Termagants.)

These are the perfect way to expand a new army (like the one you’re getting for Christmas, since you’ve been so good all year) or to re-visit an existing army that’s just been waiting for a few reinforcements.

A couple of these and an HQ choice would give you a great start to a highly mobile force as the basis of a new army for the new year.

These sets will be available to pre-order on the 31st of December.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JgJdSn5J9kM/WE11wrTaJ-I/AAAAAAABKb0/Eyrd1Vt8R28m9IHoJmFx_Aq8zSDDxg7wQCLcB/s1600/1.PNG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f-svCvNhI20/WE11wr2MlcI/AAAAAAABKbw/25Aynd91QFs9Za846CM7CNp7oQ0qKAxbQCLcB/s1600/12.PNG
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/--t6LC9r2i64/WE11wokBH7I/AAAAAAABKb4/LVHNiLCz84QV4eJL1Ngurhu9xg8EoHi7gCLcB/s1600/13.PNG
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I6L1s9buE04/WE11w9SamJI/AAAAAAABKb8/ZS9V1U56TF8BfcOcpwzrIMyV9tmyBgVxQCLcB/s1600/14.PNG

All pods all the time! Except BA, DA and your chaos brethren, you chumps can ride in your rhinos. Tau one is junk because pathfinders are completely irrelevant with drones existing, not to mention that the other 11 options here is troops in a transport but the tau one is a FA choice. good job GW, it's not like you could have offered a squad of FW/breachers and a 'fish or anything. Vets in a Chim is rarely going to be a bad choice, Tervigon and som gaunts is another one that's rarely going to be bad, all the late bandwagoneers for eldar can pretend like they were early bandwagoneers in 6th and grab all the DA in serpents that they don't want because there's already a jetbike squad available, 'Crons can do the same if they missed out on the AV13 wall of their last dex. With the un-nerfing of the dudes-in-jinking-transports rule, DE boats became mildly playable again, but unfortunately they gave you a raider instead of a venom, but it's still a pair of MSU kabalites and a transport for grots if you've had brain damage and are thinking about starting DE. Boys in a truck are either expensive but passable with 'Eavy armour or a deathtrap waiting to explode and kill half the boys, followed by failing a ld check and then the nob killing the remainder with their stupid table, so yeah, have fun with that.

[Cheesegear]

See now I'm confused, caus fists [are good]

Fists are good if you're spamming Boltguns. For...Reasons... Not every Fists player spams Boltguns. Some Fists players just like bringing Lysander & Terminators in a Land Raider. But, yes, everything that gets in close has a re-rollable Boltgun, and everything in the back has Tank Hunters and 48" range weapons. Fists have access to a Spell Familiar Relic, and as Marines, they have access to Drop Pods.

If you aren't using what makes Fists good (Which is Boltguns, which is the stock weapon on every single Marine), then Fists aren't that good. I'll never understand Fist players that aren't liberally spamming Sternguard, and now that Land Speeder Storms have been un-nerfed with the Jinking, it's back to being actually playable. Especially with Servo-Skulls potentially leaving the game, having multiple units that can Scout 12" stops some of the worse stuff.


and Thunderfires are good

Thunderfires. Plural. One Thunderfire, does nothing.


but stormravens are bad

They certainly are.

[Drasius]

Thunderfires. Plural. One Thunderfire, does nothing.

Ah, I saw TFC and just assumed. Once I saw your post I went back and re-read, and yeah, only 1. Who takes a stormraven and only 1 TFC? A stormraven is literally a direct trade for 2 TFC's on points, they're even in the same slot! Probably even *shudder* used it to transport things.

[Yaktan]

Yeah, he did not seem to have a very good list. He had some sort of big termi HQ who was deep striking in with a squad of terminators. (and as far as I could tell he had no scatter mitigation or reserves manipulation.) I bet his HQ was not even Lysander, since he had a bunch of Red marines and had decided that today they would be fists.

He had no drop pods, I think.

Only one thunderfire.

He did have deathwatch as well, I just remembered. Not sure what they were doing, but I am pretty sure they did not have a drop pod. He was using the ones from overkill, I think, since I do remember him mentioning the Terminator was a salamander. It was notable for making 40+ armor saves against the dark eldar, and the two it failed, making feel-no-pain.

Though who knows what rules it actually had, since they guy playing it thought it was an independent character and later on discovered it was a regular character.

The demons player also thought his BloodThirster was an independent character that could join bloodcrushers...

[Drasius]

The demons player also thought his BloodThirster was an independent character that could join bloodcrushers...

If only. Oh man, if only. I'm always absolutely shocked that players make these kind of mistakes, especially since it's not really something that ever comes up in our store, yet there's always so many stories about these kinds of things. Why is it so common everywhere else but here?

[Cheesegear]

He had some sort of big termi HQ who was deep striking in with a squad of terminators.

The day I learned that Lysander is supposed to go in a Drop Pod with x8 Sternguard (or, rather, x7 and a Librarian) was a pretty big day for me. The one place that Sternguard don't want to be, is in Melee, and 'Podding them in gives your opponent a perfect opportunity to Charge them (inb4; Just play White Scars, and get Hit & Run, it's the best!). Lysander is a big problem solver for Sternguard - "What's the Toughness of a Daemon Prince? Only 5? That's a shame."

Lysander does not like Terminators, and the newest Terminator Captain - the Cataphractii - also hates Terminators.

Almost like Terminators aren't good. Or something. Though I'm pretty sure it's that first thing.


I bet his HQ was not even Lysander, since he had a bunch of Red marines and had decided that today they would be fists.

Which begs the question; Why play Imperial Fists?

Actual Conversation
"[Cheese] plays Imperial Fists, so that means that they must be good!"
...But you don't even have any Sternguard, or Devastators. Wouldn't you be better off with Iron Hands with all your Dreadnoughts?
"But you play with Imperial Fists!"
But I don't have 5 Dreadnoughts in my list.


He did have deathwatch as well, I just remembered. Not sure what they were doing, but I am pretty sure they did not have a drop pod.

Casuals gonna casual.


I'm always absolutely shocked that players make these kind of mistakes...

I've generally found that it has to do with players reading what they want to read, and then closing the book. Without even reading that there's a whole 'nother sentence - or entire paragraph! - that prevents them from doing whatever it is that they want to do.

"Characters can join units. Looks like my Bloodthirster is joining a unit 'cause he's a Character!"
Did you also read the part where it said that Monstrous Creatures can't join units, even if they're Characters?
"...Wat..."

[Ricky S]

My theory on celestine not being included is that they will release new plastic sisters, a fancy plastic celestine kit and a new codex to go with it. The armies of imperium wouldnt have celestine only the sisters book would have access to her.

I did manage to buy veridian but in my haste i didnt spot celestine in the last chance to buy section and now she is sold out. Surely the fact veridian and celestine sold out means there are plenty of people willing to start a sisters army? I know i want to.

[Professor Gnoll]

My theory on celestine not being included is that they will release new plastic sisters, a fancy plastic celestine kit and a new codex to go with it. The armies of imperium wouldnt have celestine only the sisters book would have access to her.
I'd love this to be true, but Sisters getting dumped in the Agents of the Imperium codex makes it seem pretty unlikely to me. Also, GW doesn't care about Sisters.

[Forum Explorer]

If only. Oh man, if only. I'm always absolutely shocked that players make these kind of mistakes, especially since it's not really something that ever comes up in our store, yet there's always so many stories about these kinds of things. Why is it so common everywhere else but here?

Because your meta calls out rule violations as soon as they're spotted and tells them so? That's how it happens in my store at least, so the misconceptions happen, then usually are corrected unless both players don't know the rule.


Anyways, I had a tourney today. And 7 out of the 12 players didn't show up. :smalleek:, the TO joined so we'd have an even 6 but still, wow.


1. My army isn't OP guys, seriously! (Eldar Corsairs)
2. Tigerus and his Merry Men (Imperial Guard with Librarian Conclave) (TO's army)
3. 5th Edition Jetbike army (My Eldar), Sir Newbie (Eldar) (We tied)
5. Death Guard
6. Tyranids


CAD
HQ
Autoch with shard of Anaris, Jetbike, and Banshee Mask: 130
Farseer with Jetbike, Spiritstone of Anath'lan, and singing spear: 135

Elites

Troops
3 Jet Bikes: 51
3 Jet Bikes: 51
3 Jet Bikes: 51
3 Jet Bikes: 51

Fast Attack
8 Shining Spears with Exarch with Starlance: 220
Crimson Hunter Exarch: 160
10 Warp Spiders with Exarch with Spinneret Rifle: 215

Heavy Support
1 Fire Prism with Ghostwalk Matrix: 135
5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Starshot missiles: 160


Offico Assassinomium Detachment
Culexus: 140




Total: 1499

So I went up against (new!) Death Guard. He had

Lord with MoN, and Power Axe
Demon Prince with MoN
3 squads of Plague Marines, all with 2 plasma guns and in Rhinos
Spawn with MoN
Renegade Knight with Icarus Autocannons

Mission was Big Guns Never Tire.

Turn 1, I deal some serious damage to the Knight, but couldn't bring it down. That's pretty much it. His first turn, he plinks away at my guys, and kills a Jetbike squad. He tries to heal the Knight, (he rolled all his powers on Technomany), but I deny on triple 6s. He charges my Culexus with a Spawn.

Turn 2, I kill the Knight (giving me Big Game Hunter, for killing the most expensive unit) with my Shining Spears on the charge. Luckily it falls backwards and the explosion kills no one. He then charges them with 2 units of plague marines, his Lord, and his Demon Prince. After spraying them with some poison AP 3 attack, and I make all 4 4++ saves on my Autarch (with 1 FnP as a Warlord Trait). His lord challenges and I accept. He squashes a bunch of bikes with his Prince, I do nothing back, but stay in combat. He charges the Culexus with his Plague Marines and kills him.

Turn 3, I kill his one unit on plague marines with my Warp Spiders, and begin plinking at Rhinos. His turn, his Rhinos drive around plinking at Jetbikes before combat continues. My Autarch finally kills his Lord for Warlord, and I continue making a quite frankly ridiculous amount of 3+ and 4++ rerolls due to fortune. But the Prince squishes the last few bikes.

Turn 4, and 5, I kill his spawn and a couple of Rhinos. Combat drags on as I can't seem to fail an armor save, but can't wound him either. In the end, I killed 1 Plague marine and a single wound on his Prince, and he dealt one wound on my Autarch and 1 on my Farseer. My remaining Bikes claim the other 3 objectives not being sat on by a combat mishmash. Time is called on turn 5.

End score: 9-2 for the Eldar.

He made a big mistake challenging with his Warlord, I wouldn't have been able to touch that guy otherwise. As is, he gave me an easy 2 VP and let me eliminate some AP 2 swings. Also going all out on technomancy was a mistake considering I only have 1 vehicle. I messed up by forgetting about line breaker and not sending my Warp Spiders to go get it.


Against Eldar Corsairs. He had:

9 Scatbikes
2 Guys with Shadowfields
2 Hornets
1 Warp Talon
1 Doomweaver
3 War Walkers with 2 scat lasers each
2 Vypers with Scat laser and Shurikan Cannons
2 units of 5 man guys with 2 meltas in each squad.

Mission is one objective in the center of each quarter, and we deploy in quarters. Otherwise straight up normal. We both get strategic, and both get Night Attacker. Lol. :smallsmile:

Turn 1: He declares a unit of bikes his hated unit and kills it for 1 VP to the primary mission. He kills another 2 unit of bikes, and hurt the other squads, getting First Blood as well (:smallmad: for some reason this mission didn't have First Strike) I turbo forward with what I've got left, fortune up, and kill a Hornet with my Dark Reapers. Mind War kills one Scat bike, and he fails his LD, so they run off the board.

Turn 2: He dumps 32 scat laser shots, and 4 pulsar shots into my Shining Spears. Only 2 die because I can't fail a 3+ reroll. All his reserves come in, and kill my Fire Prism and all but my Dark Reaper Exarch. In retaliation, he blows up a Vyper, and I charge his Warlord's Scatbike sqaud, beating it in combat, and catching it when it tried to run. My Crimson Hunter blows up his Warp Talon (Which gets me Big Game Hunter)

Turn 3: He kills my last Dark Reaper, and fires at my Crimson Hunter doing nothing. He dumps 28 Scat Laser, and 4 Pulsar shots into my Shining Spears. Killing one and wounding the Exarch. 2 War Walkers charge my Spears, killing one more, but I take a hull point off.

Turn 4: His turn, he shoots at my Crimson hunter, and takes a hull point off. My Crimson Hunter flies off the table. My last 2 bikes fly around and do basically nothing. My Culexus gets his remaining bikes to Jink, and my Warp Spiders finally(!) show up. Combat whiffs.

Turn 5: His turn, he kills my remaining bikes, and some Warp Spiders. I kill nothing in return, but I get the Doomweaver Jinking from my Crimson Hutner, I finally finish off the last War Walker.

Turn 6: He moves his Doomweaver to hold an objective in addition to his remaining bikes, who fire and take a single wound off my Farseer. My Warp Spiders kill most his bikes, my Crimson Hunter blows up his other Vyper, but he has another squad holding that objective, and my Shining Spears charge the remaining Bikes and the Doomweaver, killing both of them. Game ends.

I have 2 Objectives, he has 2 Objectives. His 1 damn point for the Hate kill in the first turn scores him primary for 5 points. He has first blood, and I couldn't score it. I have Warlord and Big Game Hutner

End score 7-4 for Eldar Corsairs.

I'm a little cheesed on this one because I know the TO meant to change First Blood to First Strike (Which can be scored by both players) which would have made the score 7-6. I'm not sure about his whole Hatred VP works like he said it did, but I didn't feel like calling him on it, since he was stressed out enough by everyone calling his army OP and it is supposed to be a fun tourny.

So this player was a complete beginner. He had never played Eldar before, and by the time he faced me, it was his 4 game ever.

So before the Tournament began, I actually helped write his list, and we spent most of this game talking over rules and explaining tactics.

His List:
CAD

Farseer on jetbike with Spirit Stones: 130
3 Scatbikes: 81
4 Scatbikes: 108

5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120
in Wave Serpent with Scat Laser and Shurikan Cannon: 125

Wraithknight with Heavy D-cannons and Starcannons: 335

Dire Avenger Shrine
5 Dire Avengers with Exarch: 75
in Wave Serpent with Scat Laser and Shurikan Cannon: 125


5 Dire Avengers with Exarch: 75
in Wave Serpent with Scat Laser and Shurikan Cannon: 125


5 Dire Avengers with Exarch: 75
in Wave Serpent with Scat Laser and Shurikan Cannon: 125

Total: 1499

and we were playing ITC mission 3. So kill points and 2 malestorm objectives off a list of 6 (roll 3d6 pick 2.)

Turn 1: He kills a unit of Bikes and takes 2 HP off my Fire Prism from his Wraithknight. I move up, take some pot shots, get all his Bikes to Jink, and fail to take a single hull point off a Wave Serpent after hitting it with 5 strength 8 turns. He gets First Strike, I get nothing. I successfully deny all his Maelstorm points though.

Turn 2: He kills 2 Dark Reapers, and another unit of Bikes. He turbos his Farseer accross the board. Denies me all my maelstorm points. I kill a Wave Serpent with my Shining Spears, and my Culexus dies to overwatch. My bikes charge his 1 lonesome Scatbike while my Fire Prism successfully doesn't die. I deny one maelstorm point.

Turn 3: Time is called. We have 8 minutes each to do our turns. I score 2 Maelstorm points. He kills my Dark Reapers, moves to the center of the board for King of the Hill, kills my lonesome bike, and shoots my Warp Spiders. I split up my Shining Spears, they turbo to the center, my Autoch goes after one unit of Dire Avengers, my Warp Spiders go after another, and my Farseer goes after a wounded Wave Serpent. My Farseer makes a 9 inch charge and takes the last HP off in close combat (getting close enough for King of the Hill to boot), my Autoch fails to kill his unit, my Warp Spiders fail to kill their unit (with only the enemy Exarch left standing), and nothing happens in the bike combat. I do score both Maelstorm objectives though, and he scores one.

End result? He won kill points 5-3 for 4 VP. I won Maelstorm 4-2 for 4 VP. He has First Strike. I had King of the Hill.

Game is a Draw at 5-5.

Fun game, and a fun player. Like I said, we spent most of the game talking about what we were doing and taking time to discuss his tactics and rules, but that's to be expected with a new player.


The Corsair player managed to go 3-0, but only won his game against the Tigerius Guard by 1 point. He's getting really sick of people calling his army OP, and has threatened to go full min-max us, failing to realize that it would only invite more complaints about his army being OP. He is almost certainly going to pick up a Culexus next tournament, because I sure he's sick of facing Tigerius Conclaves and his inability to do anything to them. He was pretty chapped about my Fortune, failing to realize how ludicrous my luck was, and apparently thinking it was that powers fault, and not a statistical anomaly.

Meanwhile, I'm getting real sick of him refusing to admit that he's playing an army that is pretty much stronger then every army that isn't the Tigerius Conclave. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he just admitted that he was playing a power list instead of constantly trying to downplay his success in every game. I mean over the last two tournaments he went 5-1, and in his one loss, he didn't take a single casualty. If the mission hadn't been straight Relic, he would have won that one too.

Anyways, me and the newbie Eldar player ended up with identical scores, which I thought was hilarious. I didn't get to fight the TO which made me sad, because I wanted to see how the Culexus messed with the Tigerius Conclave (As is he was weak, but not useless)

Tyranid Player had some bad match ups, going up against Corsairs first, Tigerius Second, and then the Death Guard third. The terrors of the 6 man tourny.

Prizes are by raffle, so I ended up winning a 30$ gift card! :smallsmile: (The other winner was the Death Guard player)

[The Patterner]

He made a big mistake challenging with his Warlord, I wouldn't have been able to touch that guy otherwise. As is, he gave me an easy 2 VP and let me eliminate some AP 2 swings. Also going all out on technomancy was a mistake considering I only have 1 vehicle. I messed up by forgetting about line breaker and not sending my Warp Spiders to go get it.




Unless they have changed the rules he had no choice, Champions of Chaos have to challange :smallfrown:

[Cheesegear]

Because your meta calls out rule violations as soon as they're spotted and tells them so?

I remember when Space Marines/7 first came out, and Conclaves were the new hotness; I came in in the middle of Turn 3, and one Librarian cast like, five Powers in the one Phase, and I said "How are you casting more than 2 Powers?" and the player said "Because each Librarian knows all the Powers of all the other Librarians in the Formation, dur. Look how many spells he knows!", and I was like "Yeah...But each Librarian can only cast a number of spells equal to their Mastery Level. That's the downside of the Formation."

And both players - 'cause it was Conclave vs. Conclave - looked at each other for missing such a huge, obvious flaw in the Formation. Because Librarians that were 'power sharing' couldn't cast in that phase, so, while your Librarian knows ~10 or so Powers, you can only cast two...However, you will be casting those two spells on 3s or 2s (bring an Imperial Fist for the Spell Familiar Relic! ...Or Tigurius).


Anyways, I had a tourney today. And 7 out of the 12 players didn't show up.

Wow.


[Chaos Marines] made a big mistake challenging with his Warlord

What does Shard of Anaris do?
"It gives me Fleshbane and Instant Death when I'm in a Challenge."
...Yeah. I'm going to take the Challenge on my Sergeant.

Unfortunately, he plays Chaos Marines, and doesn't get a choice. Daemon Princes don't have the Champion of Chaos rule, which means that while they're kind of good in Challenges (S6, AP2, not including weapons), if there is any other Chaos Marine Character in the same combat - such as a Warlord Chaos Lord - that Character must Challenge over the Daemon Prince, because that's how the Chaos book works. He could have Challenged with a Plague Marine Character - in fact, that's what he should have done - but a Plague Champion wouldn't have been able to go toe-to-toe with an Autarch.

In fact, that's why Shard of Anaris is actually that good. Whenever I see Shard of Anaris, I'm like "Yeah...My Warlord's over here, now..." Unless I have Shield Eternal, or Lysander...Which is pretty much always. Also, the Shard is usually carried by a Farseer, and rarely have I ever seen it carried by an Autarch. When my opponents want to pull that Autarch move, they're usually doing it with Asurmen. But, you are playing 1500, not 1850, so 220 is a lot...Hmm... You win this round.


I'm not sure about [Corsair's] Hatred VP works like he said it did, but I didn't feel like calling him on it, since he was stressed out enough by everyone calling his army OP and it is supposed to be a fun tourny.

It's still Bad Form, though. Unfortunately, 'fun' is relative. He may've thought his army wasn't broke (there are some actually bad units in there), until he showed up on the day. Happened in my last Kill Team Tournament; I brought 6 Tomb Blades which seemed fine, 'cause I knew Scouts-in-Land Speeder Storms were coming (I was correct, but not in the way I thought, another dude ran it completely wrong), and I was under the impression that I'd have to play some Death Company at some point. Unfortunately, the guys didn't come, and I realised immediately that my 6 Tomb Blade army was not reasonable and I had basically auto-won the tournament before it had even started.


Like I said, we spent most of the game talking about what we were doing and taking time to discuss his tactics and rules, but that's to be expected with a new player.

And in the end, you managed to slow-play yourself. I'm not a fan of playing new kids in tournaments. If I roflstomp them without explaining exactly what's going on, I feel bad, because I don't feel like they understand why they lost, which makes them hate the game and hate me. If I take time out of the game to explain what's happening (because I don't have the luxury of assuming my opponent knows what's going on), I lose time out of the game which means I don't get to make it to Turn 5+ and actually get the win I really need.
(This happened in Game 3 of our doubles tournament, which is extremely painful on Tactical Escalation.)


He's getting really sick of people calling his army OP, and has threatened to go full min-max us

I lol'd. That's not a threat. That's shooting yourself in the foot.


Meanwhile, I'm getting real sick of him refusing to admit that he's playing an army that is pretty much stronger then every army

Welcome to dealing with every most Eldar players.


I'd have a lot more respect for him if he just admitted that he was playing a power list instead of constantly trying to downplay his success in every game.

The alternative is that he genuinely believes his list isn't that good.


I didn't get to fight the TO which made me sad

Sometimes I want to fight my TO, too. But, usually I just settle for a game.

...The old jokes are the best.

[Blackhawk748]

I'd love this to be true, but Sisters getting dumped in the Agents of the Imperium codex makes it seem pretty unlikely to me. Also, GW doesn't care about Sisters.

Which makes no sense because there is clearly a demand for them, so apparently GW hates money.

[lord_khaine]

Welcome to dealing with every most Eldar players.

Well its a question of relativity, and if the mental benchmark he is running by is a marine gladius pouring grav over everything not drowning in thunderwolves, then it is easy to see your army as weak compared to that, instead of comparing to what your facing.

[Drasius]

Anyways, I had a tourney today. And 7 out of the 12 players didn't show up. :smalleek:, the TO joined so we'd have an even 6 but still, wow.

Wow. What is this, I don't even.




1. My army isn't OP guys, seriously! (Eldar Corsairs)
2. Tigerus and his Merry Men (Imperial Guard with Librarian Conclave) (TO's army)
3. 5th Edition Jetbike army (My Eldar), Sir Newbie (Eldar) (We tied)
5. Death Guard
6. Tyranids


Seems about right. I probably would have called the TO's army between yours and the newbies, but hey, luck of the draw, right?



Against Eldar Corsairs. He had:

9 Scatbikes
2 Guys with Shadowfields
2 Hornets
1 Warp Talon
1 Doomweaver
3 War Walkers with 2 scat lasers each
2 Vypers with Scat laser and Shurikan Cannons
2 units of 5 man guys with 2 meltas in each squad.

...since he was stressed out enough by everyone calling his army OP and it is supposed to be a fun tourny.

If you're worried about being called a WAAC douche, not only should you not play Eldar, you really shouldn't be playing FW eldar. About the only thing worse than hornets that I can think of off the top of my head is a Lynx (that would be on a skyshield, naturally).


So this player was a complete beginner. He had never played Eldar before, and by the time he faced me, it was his 4 game ever.

Just out of interest, now that the tourney is over, whats his W/L like?


Meanwhile, I'm getting real sick of him refusing to admit that he's playing an army that is pretty much stronger then every army that isn't the Tigerius Conclave. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he just admitted that he was playing a power list instead of constantly trying to downplay his success in every game. I mean over the last two tournaments he went 5-1, and in his one loss, he didn't take a single casualty. If the mission hadn't been straight Relic, he would have won that one too.

I know Cheese has already said it, but yeah, welcome to how the rest of us see most every Eldar player.


Tyranid Player had some bad match ups, going up against Corsairs first, Tigerius Second, and then the Death Guard third. The terrors of the 6 man tourny.

And which of the matchup would have been good for him, hmm? Eldar jetbikes, Eldar jetbikes with Wraithknight and Serpents (Oh My!), FW eldar and jetbikes, Tiggy & IG or Deathguard? If I was him I'd be asking if I could play the deathguard player 3 times.

[Lord Torath]

Whoever wrote that really needs to do his homework. For starters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI
Space Marines are sterile, and puberty doesn't create "prowess." Kid needs to grow up. ]Which is, of course, the true reason for the Horus Heresy. :smallwink:

To be fair, I don’t think the fact that Marines are Sterile appears anywhere in the 2nd Edition fluff. I don’t recall reading it anywhere anyway, and I’ve got all the 2E codexes (codices?), plus the stuff from the boxed set and Dark Millenium, so if he started with 2nd Edition, he might not have known that. Is there a way to check when a webpage was updated? I seem to recall that this was written in the late 90’s/early 00’s (or “early naughties” as I’ve heard them called on NPR/BBC. Once. By a guest), which is just about when 3rd Edition came out.


Unfortunately, it appears that this organ has mutated from its original purpose, also aiding in the supply of oxygen to the blood by 'absorbing' some of it through the skin. It is then entirely possible for a female Space Marine to die of suffocation if their entire body, externally, is deprived of oxygen for extended periods of time. They can operate normally for most combat purposes, but they rarely wear their armour outside of combat and formal occasions.
Been watching Goldfinger, much? Besides, even if it did work that way, that doesn't make their lungs less efficient. :smallsigh: What we have here is an excuse for his Marines to walk around sans armor/clothing, nothing more. ]I fully agree with you here. If anything it would provide extra oxygen in the blood, so a bonus if uncovered, not a suffocation risk when covered. And even without changing his description, an undersuit that pumps fresh air next to the skin would not be at all difficult to integrate into power armor, and would probably be one of the first things they would look into. We’ve got something similar for our astronauts. Plus, if the female implant reacts on exposure to oxygen, but also draws oxygen in through the skin, you’re going to end up with severe bruising all over as all the blood near the skin clots up. So yeah, that bit could just be completely removed.

A few other things I’ve noticed:

There’s no real reason why the female Secondary Heart needs to be any smaller than the regular heart, as space is just as much of a premium in the chest cavity for men as it is for women. If the expanded male ribcage can fit a second full-size heart, there’s really no reason the expanded female ribcage couldn’t as well.

The female Phase 8 implant actually makes more real-world sense than the male version. As your emotions change, hormones poor into your bloodstream, so it makes more sense that you could tell the emotional state of an animal by eating it than that you can get some of its memories by eating it.


I'm not opposed to the idea of female Astartes on principle (the two lost legions could theoretically be that key, after all), but the idea can certainly be better written than that. So how is your write-up coming?

Edit: (You know, this discussion probably belongs in the Fluff thread, not this one)

[Requizen]

Anyways, I had a tourney today. And 7 out of the 12 players didn't show up. :smalleek:, the TO joined so we'd have an even 6 but still, wow.


1. My army isn't OP guys, seriously! (Eldar Corsairs)
2. Tigerus and his Merry Men (Imperial Guard with Librarian Conclave) (TO's army)
3. 5th Edition Jetbike army (My Eldar), Sir Newbie (Eldar) (We tied)
5. Death Guard
6. Tyranids


12 person event, at least 1/4 of the field is Eldar (and 2 of them not even "I know my army is stupid but I like playing it so let me tone it down a bit so we can actually have fun" Eldar). Gee I wonder why people didn't show up.

Look, I don't dislike people who play Eldar, but it and Battle Company just occasionallyoften make it not fun to go to events that are even partially competitive. Our monthly turnouts have basically died - partially with the holiday season sure, but every time I talk to people they have similar mindsets.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wow. What is this, I don't even.

"This" is pretty standard. You mean you have players who aren't horrible flakes? :smallconfused:

:smalltongue:

So how is your write-up coming?

Edit: (You know, this discussion probably belongs in the Fluff thread, not this one)
Probably. As for my write-up, I have my own original fiction already on the back burner; I don't need to take up writing female Space Marines. :smalltongue: I was just pointing out that someone's... something I can't say here doesn't make for especially informative reading.

[Bobby Baratheon]

New list time! Well, it's not that new. It's just an expansion of my last list in 2000 points and an excuse for me to use my librarians. I'm weighing several different possibilities with this list, and thought I'd see what the playground has to say.

It's for a fluffy-ish battle against Cypher and some Word Bearers. I was kind of hoping to use basically the same list as last time so I can keep getting experience with it (as well as getting more experience with the psychic phase), but recommendations are definitely welcome.


Skitarii Maniple
120 - Vanguard (x5) with EDT and x2 plasma calivers
90 - Vanguard (x5) with EDT and x2 arc rifles
115 - Rangers (x5) with x2 transuranic arquebus(i?)

Lion's Blade Strike Force

Battle Demi Company
160 - Company Master Absalom with relic blade, artificer armor, shroud of heroes, combiplasma

175 - Company vets (x5) with x2 meltaguns, x3 combimeltas, Drop Pod

130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with meltagun, combimelta, meltabombs and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with meltagun, combimelta, meltabombs and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with plasmagun, combiplasma, Rhino

180 - Assault Squad (x5) with 2x flamers, meltabombs, power weapon, combiplasma, las/plas Razorback

145 - Devastator Squad (x5) with las/plas Razorback

10th Company Support
70 - Scout Squad (x5) with x5 Snipers, x5 camo cloaks
70 - Scout Squad (x5) with x5 Snipers, x5 camo cloaks

Librarius Conclave
135 - Ezekiel
120 - Librarian Joab with Force Weapon, ML2, Conversion Field, combiplasma
120 - Librarian Micaiah Force Weapon, ML2, Conversion Field, combiplasma

Inquisitorial Detachment
108 - Xenos Inquisitor

Total: 1998

The idea with the conclave is to use Ezekiel and one of the librarians interromancy to nerf my opponents special characters and stick the other librarian somewhere else, or to stick both libbys in drop pods and hope they're close enough to use the conclave special rules and use Ezekiel to buff the Chapter master and the assault squad in melee. Not expecting a ton of elite melee units, so Ezekiel/generic librarian + Chapter Master + Assault squad should be enough to wipe some units. Turn one melta Drop Pod assault should handle any vehicles, scouts form an advance wave of irritants/objective claimers (or more likely backfield objective claimers), inquisitor combines with the rangers for a nasty unit that can shoot across the map and has prescience, while the razorbacks/rhino go looking for fights.

My likely opponent for this list will be a chaos list with some imperial militia and cults chaff. IIRC it's a word bearer warband geared around marines in rhinos with sorcerer support, so at least some summoning is likely. I'm hoping that three psychic hoods (one of which is attached to a ML3 psyker) should give me a defensive edge and that my plasma guns should eat through some traitor marines. I'm leaning towards Librarius, Fulmination and Interromancy as the three lists I roll on, though Biomancy is tempting. As a side note, Cypher will probably show up in the battle.

I'm considering dropping the skitarii, some of the scouts and the inquisitor for either some Deathwing (Knights + Ezekiel = dead traitors) or some Secutarii peltasts, which seem quite good.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Also considering trading out the skitarii and some of the scouts for a inquisitorial land raider crusader (with psybolt ammunition) stuffed full of death cult assassins and a ministorum priest. That would be a good place to stash the Company master and one of the librarians as well.

EDIT2: I'm really liking this idea . . . a bunch of death cult assassins with Ezekiel's Book of Salvation buff giving them 5 S4 AP3 attacks each on the charge, anything he rolls (prolly on Librarius or Biomancy), with re-rollable 5++ saves (thanks to the priest) and the Company Master would kick all kinds of ass. Plus the frag cannons, and the crusader spitting out 12 twinlinked S5 bolter shots and 4 S7 assault cannon shots. . . That's a pretty good return. That would be a LOT of points in one place, though.

[Forum Explorer]

Wow.



What does Shard of Anaris do?
"It gives me Fleshbane and Instant Death when I'm in a Challenge."
...Yeah. I'm going to take the Challenge on my Sergeant.

Unfortunately, he plays Chaos Marines, and doesn't get a choice. Daemon Princes don't have the Champion of Chaos rule, which means that while they're kind of good in Challenges (S6, AP2, not including weapons), if there is any other Chaos Marine Character in the same combat - such as a Warlord Chaos Lord - that Character must Challenge over the Daemon Prince, because that's how the Chaos book works. He could have Challenged with a Plague Marine Character - in fact, that's what he should have done - but a Plague Champion wouldn't have been able to go toe-to-toe with an Autarch.

In fact, that's why Shard of Anaris is actually that good. Whenever I see Shard of Anaris, I'm like "Yeah...My Warlord's over here, now..." Unless I have Shield Eternal, or Lysander...Which is pretty much always. Also, the Shard is usually carried by a Farseer, and rarely have I ever seen it carried by an Autarch. When my opponents want to pull that Autarch move, they're usually doing it with Asurmen. But, you are playing 1500, not 1850, so 220 is a lot...Hmm... You win this round.



It's still Bad Form, though. Unfortunately, 'fun' is relative. He may've thought his army wasn't broke (there are some actually bad units in there), until he showed up on the day. Happened in my last Kill Team Tournament; I brought 6 Tomb Blades which seemed fine, 'cause I knew Scouts-in-Land Speeder Storms were coming (I was correct, but not in the way I thought, another dude ran it completely wrong), and I was under the impression that I'd have to play some Death Company at some point. Unfortunately, the guys didn't come, and I realised immediately that my 6 Tomb Blade army was not reasonable and I had basically auto-won the tournament before it had even started.



And in the end, you managed to slow-play yourself. I'm not a fan of playing new kids in tournaments. If I roflstomp them without explaining exactly what's going on, I feel bad, because I don't feel like they understand why they lost, which makes them hate the game and hate me. If I take time out of the game to explain what's happening (because I don't have the luxury of assuming my opponent knows what's going on), I lose time out of the game which means I don't get to make it to Turn 5+ and actually get the win I really need.
(This happened in Game 3 of our doubles tournament, which is extremely painful on Tactical Escalation.)



I lol'd. That's not a threat. That's shooting yourself in the foot.



Welcome to dealing with every most Eldar players.



The alternative is that he genuinely believes his list isn't that good.



Sometimes I want to fight my TO, too. But, usually I just settle for a game.

...The old jokes are the best.

Yeah, I don't know why he didn't challenge with his Sargent.

What is Bad Form? Questioning the rule? I do know that what he runs is his typical list even outside tourny play. He gets a lot of flack for that.

True. I don't mind though. It was a good experience for him, and prizes were awarded by raffle so placement didn't matter. Also it was the last game, so it's not like it would affect my other games either.

Yeah, I kinda want to have a talk with him, but maybe shooting himself in the foot will get the point across? It's not my place to try and teach him to be a good sport regardless.

I think he's under the impression that because he's not as OP as he could be, then he's not OP at all.


Unless they have changed the rules he had no choice, Champions of Chaos have to challange :smallfrown:

He could have challenged with a Sargent.


Wow. What is this, I don't even.



Seems about right. I probably would have called the TO's army between yours and the newbies, but hey, luck of the draw, right?



If you're worried about being called a WAAC douche, not only should you not play Eldar, you really shouldn't be playing FW eldar. About the only thing worse than hornets that I can think of off the top of my head is a Lynx (that would be on a skyshield, naturally).



Just out of interest, now that the tourney is over, whats his W/L like?



I know Cheese has already said it, but yeah, welcome to how the rest of us see most every Eldar player.



And which of the matchup would have been good for him, hmm? Eldar jetbikes, Eldar jetbikes with Wraithknight and Serpents (Oh My!), FW eldar and jetbikes, Tiggy & IG or Deathguard? If I was him I'd be asking if I could play the deathguard player 3 times.

It was like -20 to - 30 that day. (Celsius)

Yeah, choices were limited for match ups for so few players.

Identical to mine, one win with 9 points, one loss with 4, and one tie with 5.

I guess so. Hopefully he'll learn.

He would have had a chance against my list or the newbie Eldar list. My Shining Spears could be tied up by gaunt blobs, and the Warp Spiders could be eaten by the Mawloc. Then his two Flyrants and Biovores could out shoot what I've got left. I'm not saying I would lose, just that he has an actual chance against me vs the Corsairs. The newbie didn't know what he's doing, so he might be able to beat him as well.


12 person event, at least 1/4 of the field is Eldar (and 2 of them not even "I know my army is stupid but I like playing it so let me tone it down a bit so we can actually have fun" Eldar). Gee I wonder why people didn't show up.

Look, I don't dislike people who play Eldar, but it and Battle Company just occasionallyoften make it not fun to go to events that are even partially competitive. Our monthly turnouts have basically died - partially with the holiday season sure, but every time I talk to people they have similar mindsets.

To be fair, the newbie was a last minute show up. (And I basically wrote his list on the basis that he didn't know what he's doing, so I gave him as strong of a list as I could off what I saw he had.)

Though, do you think my list was OP? I was trying to keep it toned down, (and still have a chance against the Corsairs/Tigerius) but I wasn't sure how well I did.

[lord_khaine]

So how is your write-up coming?

Not like it takes much work to create something a lot more.. realistic for lack of a better word.. something that does not ruin the immersion?
"After fiddling around a little bit the Mechanicus discovered it were only dogma that held them back from making marines out of girls as well. But the extreme degree of augmentation that goes into creating a marine means that the only real way you can tell them apart is to either ask them or strip them naked. It turns out a few chapters has already done so for a few millenia, and noone has noticed it yet."

Besides that for all sense and purpose i would say a Space Marine is more or less genderless. And thinking about it there is no real reason for why females cant be argumented to a simular degree. They do make female assasins.

[Drasius]

"This" is pretty standard. You mean you have players who aren't horrible flakes? :smallconfused:

:smalltongue:

Yep, and it annoys me to no end, but I don't know that we've ever had that many people pull out of a tourney on the last day. 7/12 is more than half, which is more than five tenths (and that's terrible!).


I'm weighing several different possibilities with this list, and thought I'd see what the playground has to say.


Skitarii Maniple
120 - Vanguard (x5) with EDT and x2 plasma calivers (only 3 squishy bodies before they start killing 39 point models, usually better to run these at full strength to shield your investment better)
90 - Vanguard (x5) with EDT and x2 arc rifles (Arc rifles would probably be better on Rangers, but whatever)
115 - Rangers (x5) with x2 transuranic arquebus(i?) (if you must, though this is a lot of points for a unit that will likely achieve nothing)

Lion's Blade Strike Force

Battle Demi Company
160 - Company Master Absalom with relic blade, artificer armor, shroud of heroes, combiplasma (Yep, going in a pod I assume, though he's going to be in trouble against anything with 2+ armour, which you can't assume that CSM won't have anymore, but he's playing word bearers who have crap for relics [Just like their primarch]so it's fine)

175 - Company vets (x5) with x2 meltaguns, x3 combimeltas, Drop Pod (I assume this is where the CM and libbies are going? Lots of melta is fine)

130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with meltagun, combimelta, meltabombs and Drop Pod (Yep, though I'd question the melta bombs given that your devs have no heavy weapons)
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with meltagun, combimelta, meltabombs and Drop Pod (Yep, though I'd question the melta bombs given that your devs have no heavy weapons)
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with plasmagun, combiplasma, Rhino (Yep)

180 - Assault Squad (x5) with 2x flamers, meltabombs, power weapon, combiplasma, las/plas Razorback (Yuck, you can't fire the flamers out of the razor, you can't charge out of the razor and you don't want to target the same things with the combi as you do with the flamers while the power weapon is a waste on a 5 man unit as they'll be shot down as soon as they step out of their razor. Ditch these and get yourself some land speeders, or just a single speeder if you want to save points. Alternately, put these guys in a pod, then you can cram the rest of your characters in here and fire off your combis when you can't charge 1st turn and then use bolt pistols next turn when you can and your combis are expended. That'd also mean you could use the razorback points for some heavy weapons on your devs)

145 - Devastator Squad (x5) with las/plas Razorback (a dev squad with no heavy weapons? What are you doing here? Ditch the melta bombs, trim down the assault squad and trade in the razorback for the heavy weapons that you will want to be able to engage things at a reasonable range. Alternately, get 2 grav cannons and jam them in a rhino if you don't want to break your mechanised theme)

10th Company Support
70 - Scout Squad (x5) with x5 Snipers, x5 camo cloaks (yep)
70 - Scout Squad (x5) with x5 Snipers, x5 camo cloaks (yep, take a look at these and then take a look at the rangers with the overly expensive gun and then ask yourself which one is better value)

Librarius Conclave
135 - Ezekiel (yep)
120 - Librarian Joab with Force Weapon, ML2, Conversion Field, combiplasma (think about what weapon you want as it will also dictate to a certain degree what powers you roll and can also be influenced by the composition of the rest of your army)
120 - Librarian Micaiah Force Weapon, ML2, Conversion Field, combiplasma (as above)

Inquisitorial Detachment
108 - Xenos Inquisitor (That's a lot of points for a T3 model. I'm assuming he's a psycher and if he doesn't have 3 servo skulls you need to be putting your dunce hat on because you already told us you were playing against cypher, so that's 64/108 accounted for. I'm guessing terminator armour and a psycannon? Need more details about what he's got)

Total: 1998

Comments in green

The idea with the conclave is to use Ezekiel and one of the librarians interromancy to nerf my opponents special characters and stick the other librarian somewhere else, or to stick both libbys in drop pods and hope they're close enough to use the conclave special rules and use Ezekiel to buff the Chapter master and the assault squad in melee. Not expecting a ton of elite melee units, so Ezekiel/generic librarian + Chapter Master + Assault squad should be enough to wipe some units. Turn one melta Drop Pod assault should handle any vehicles, scouts form an advance wave of irritants/objective claimers (or more likely backfield objective claimers), inquisitor combines with the rangers for a nasty unit that can shoot across the map and has prescience, while the razorbacks/rhino go looking for fights.

My likely opponent for this list will be a chaos list with some imperial militia and cults chaff. IIRC it's a word bearer warband geared around marines in rhinos with sorcerer support, so at least some summoning is likely. I'm hoping that three psychic hoods (one of which is attached to a ML3 psyker) should give me a defensive edge and that my plasma guns should eat through some traitor marines. I'm leaning towards Librarius, Fulmination and Interromancy as the three lists I roll on, though Biomancy is tempting. As a side note, Cypher will probably show up in the battle.

I'm considering dropping the skitarii, some of the scouts and the inquisitor for either some Deathwing (Knights + Ezekiel = dead traitors) or some Secutarii peltasts, which seem quite good.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Also considering trading out the skitarii and some of the scouts for a inquisitorial land raider crusader (with psybolt ammunition) stuffed full of death cult assassins and a ministorum priest. That would be a good place to stash the Company master and one of the librarians as well.

EDIT2: I'm really liking this idea . . . a bunch of death cult assassins with Ezekiel's Book of Salvation buff giving them 5 S4 AP3 attacks each on the charge, anything he rolls (prolly on Librarius or Biomancy), with re-rollable 5++ saves (thanks to the priest) and the Company Master would kick all kinds of ass. Plus the frag cannons, and the crusader spitting out 12 twinlinked S5 bolter shots and 4 S7 assault cannon shots. . . That's a pretty good return. That would be a LOT of points in one place, though.

Don't bother with the land raider. 1) you can't start your DA inside it because battle brothers can't start inside each others transports 2) the DCA just aren't that great 3) You're going to get it exploded by melta 4) nobody cares about a handful of bolter shots on a 250+ point chassis.

Psychic hoods don't do anything against summoning, so unless he's spamming witchfires like a chump, the only defense you're going to have is the amount of dice you're bringing.

You've spent way too many points on combis for my liking, and if you're expecting a bunch of daemons and guard, then plasma isn't really going to be as much help as you'd like since the AP2 will be wasted and then you're trading the likelyhood of wounding yourself for higher str.

Edit: @ Forum Explorer
You said the newbie played his 4th game against you, so that's 1/1/1 and what was his other result? I'm interested since I was wondering just how far the eldar dex can take someone who's just started playing. That he went 1/1/1 at a tournament meant that someone who has literally no idea how to play managed to beat someone who was taking a tournament level list against them. I have no doubt that had you not been teaching him that you would have crushed him, so lets call his real result 1/0/2. Goes to show that while you can't quite just faceroll with an eldar list, it's not too far away from it. Nothing unexpected, but I just wnted to highlight the point.

[Artanis]

It was like -20 to - 30 that day. (Celsius)
Yeah, I'd say that that counts as a legitimate reason to skip a "friendly" tournament.

[Cheesegear]

Not-so-super Friends

120 - Vanguard (x5) with EDT and x2 plasma calivers
90 - Vanguard (x5) with EDT and x2 arc rifles
115 - Rangers (x5) with x2 transuranic arquebus(i?)

Arquebuses are bad and should feel bad. Calivers or Rifles for everyone.


160 - Company Master Absalom with relic blade, artificer armor, shroud of heroes, combiplasma

If he's got Shroud of Heroes, he wants to have a Jump Pack. FNP can be got from a Command Squad that you don't have. :smallwink:
What you really need is The Eye of the Unseen for Preferred Enemy, so you can stick him in the Plasma Vanguard squad, because 3-shot Plasma weapons are going to roll a lot of 1s.


175 - Company vets (x5) with x2 meltaguns, x3 combimeltas, Drop Pod

Drop a Combi-Melta, make this squad a Command Squad. Add an Apothecary. I also like x4 Grav-Guns and Relentless Banner. Either way, Company Vets are bad Command Squads.


130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with meltagun, combimelta, meltabombs and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with meltagun, combimelta, meltabombs and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) with plasmagun, combiplasma, Rhino

Yep.


180 - Assault Squad (x5) with 2x flamers, meltabombs, power weapon, combiplasma, las/plas Razorback

:smallyuk:
Assault Squads want Rhinos or Drop Pods. If you've just taken the squad for the extra Razorback, why did you spend 20 Points on Power Weapon and Melta Bomb?


145 - Devastator Squad (x5) with las/plas Razorback

Yep.


70 - Scout Squad (x5) with x5 Snipers, x5 camo cloaks
70 - Scout Squad (x5) with x5 Snipers, x5 camo cloaks

'Kay. Also, compare SM Scouts to Skitarii Vanguard...And take more Scouts. Although, I'd drop one of these units - min/max The Lion's Blade, it only needs one unit of Scouts - which frees up 70 Points to give you Heavy weapons on your Devastators. I like x3 Missiles and a Multi-Melta for 55 Points. But, you could do x3 Missiles and a Lascannon. But, 70 Points is also two Grav-Cannons with Grav-Amps, which you could buff with a Command Squad you don't have with the Relentless Banner.


135 - Ezekiel
120 - Librarian Joab with Force Weapon, ML2, Conversion Field, combiplasma
120 - Librarian Micaiah Force Weapon, ML2, Conversion Field, combiplasma

Conversion Fields are pretty bad. I don't like Librarians without two weapons. Especially Plasma weapons. Combi-Meltas I can sort of understand. But only on Terminator Librarians where you lose your Bolt Pistol, and your extra attack.


108 - Xenos Inquisitor

You left of this dude's wargear. Why does he cost 108 Points? In any case, this guy is going to be buffed/nerfed in 5 days, so if you haven't glued him together yet, don't. Because who knows what his wargear is going to be?
(We'll find out on Wednesday/Thursday when the entire Codex is 'leaked')


interromancy to nerf my opponents special characters

Mind Worm doesn't work because Focused Witchfires don't work. Seed of Fear is crap because Pinning and Morale checks don't exist on good units. Aversion is actually good, because it may as well be WC1 Invisibility. But, Mind Wipe is exceptionally strong because it targets an entire enemy unit, it's not a Focused Witchfire, and therefore isn't totally terrible. But, it is WC3. Then again, it's WC3 for a reason. The DA Conclave only casts on 3+, whereas the Codex Marine version can cast on 2+. :smalltongue:


I'm hoping that three psychic hoods (one of which is attached to a ML3 psyker)

Psychic Hoods basically do nothing. An ML3 Psyker isn't going to help, because Chaos Marines get ML3 Psykers as standard.


I'm considering dropping the skitarii, some of the scouts and the inquisitor for either some Deathwing (Knights + Ezekiel = dead traitors) or some Secutarii peltasts, which seem quite good.

Deathwing Knights will murderlise Chaos Marines, and the Perfidious Relic will give you AdWill, AdWill is how you actually beat Chaos Psykers.


Also considering trading out the skitarii and some of the scouts for a inquisitorial land raider crusader (with psybolt ammunition)

No, no, no.
Go with your Deathwing Knights idea. Land Raiders are terrible and bad.


I'm really liking this idea . . . a bunch of death cult assassins with Ezekiel's Book of Salvation buff giving them 5 S4 AP3 attacks each on the charge

Woah. Now you've gone totally off rails. Check the Book again. It affects Dark Angel models, not units. You can't say "The unit is every Faction of all models in the unit." because the Book doesn't target units, it targets models.


I do know that what he runs is his typical list even outside tourney play. He gets a lot of flack for that.

Ugh. I know you're supposed to bring your A-game to a tournament, but, even then, you can still admit what you're doing. I know I took a Gladius in 1250 with 9 free Transports. When people said I wasn't fair, I agreed. It's the second time I've been boo'd at a tournament (the first was when I brought a Fortress of Redemption back in 6th).

But, I definitely don't use a Gladius in regular games. At least, not the kind that gives me free Transports. Now that I know how terrible and bad the Sternhammer Strike Force is - not because it, itself is bad, but the ancillary effect of using the Sternhammer is that I have to use the IF Faction Objectives, and I hate them - I'll go back to using a Gladius most games. But, not The Gladius.


and prizes were awarded by raffle so placement didn't matter.

That actually does make it better. Do you know if that's how it was going to be all along? Or did the TO decide that halfway through the tournament - and didn't tell anyone - when the winner was already pre-determined?


Yeah, I kinda want to have a talk with him, but maybe shooting himself in the foot will get the point across?

Yes and no. I try to avoid letting people spend money on models they can't use. "Friends are better than Wraithknights." came from an actual conversation I had. Now that Traitor's Hate/Traitor Legions is out, I can actually tell people that they aren't totally wasting their money when they buy Chaos Marines.


I think he's under the impression that because he's not as OP as he could be, then he's not OP at all.

Play to your meta.
When I lose to someone, and they say "My list isn't even that good." what I hear is; "My list isn't even that good, and you still lost to it, GG scrub. P.S. 'GG' means 'Get Good'."


Though, do you think my list was OP?

The Good (i.e; Stuff I expect to see)
Autarch; Jetbike, Shard of Anaris Although I really expect a Farseer, any model that holds the Shard of Anaris should show up in an Eldar army list.
Farseer; Jetbike, Spirit Stones
x4 units of minimum Jetbikes albeit without Scatter Lasers/Shuriken Cannons
Crimson Hunter
Warp Spiders
Culexus

The Bad - For Eldar, that is. Remembering that 'bad' in the Eldar Codex is still better than most things in other Codecies.
Shining Spears - Could be a Warlock Conclave instead.
Dark Reapers

The Ugly (i.e; Actually bad, even for Eldar)
One Fire Prism, singular

The List certainly could do with improvements. I think the biggest flaw in your list is that you have Warp Spiders, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, and didn't make it an Aspect Host for no reason. Also, one Fire Prism? Pretty sure you could ditch it for a Wave Serpent, and ditch the Dark Reapers for Fire Dragons. In doing so, you'd straight the trade the 'Reapers for 'Dragons, and you'd still have the ability to bring an Aspect Host. The only unit that doesn't belong in an Aspect Host are Dire Avengers, because they lose ObSec, and don't even get me started on how terrible the Dire Avenger Shrine secretly is.

[Ricky S]

I'd love this to be true, but Sisters getting dumped in the Agents of the Imperium codex makes it seem pretty unlikely to me. Also, GW doesn't care about Sisters.

I would have agreed except grey knights and death watch are both in agents of the imperium as well and they also have a full codex. I think it is possible that sisters will get a plastic box and a new codex.

[Bobby Baratheon]

The idea with the Inquisitor was to give him a conversion beamer and give him Prescience (for the benefit of the arquebuses). I wasn't sold on the conversion fields and mostly included them as a way to use those points until a better idea occurred to me.

Deathwing knights is definitely the better option. Also, I definitely accidentally read just the friendly models part of the Book of Salvation. So yeah . . . not my best plan. I just really want to use my Land Raider at some point :smallfrown: Some day. Some day.

Why are DCA that bad though? 4 S4 AP3 attacks at I6 on the charge is nothing to sneeze at, especially what with rerollable saves from the priest. Not super efficient point wise, but in relatively casual games they shouldn't be that bad.

Anybody have an opinion on the secutarii peltasts? It seems that forgeworld forgot they were relentless when they made the rules for the special ammo.

[Forum Explorer]

Ugh. I know you're supposed to bring your A-game to a tournament, but, even then, you can still admit what you're doing. I know I took a Gladius in 1250 with 9 free Transports. When people said I wasn't fair, I agreed. It's the second time I've been boo'd at a tournament (the first was when I brought a Fortress of Redemption back in 6th).

But, I definitely don't use a Gladius in regular games. At least, not the kind that gives me free Transports. Now that I know how terrible and bad the Sternhammer Strike Force is - not because it, itself is bad, but the ancillary effect of using the Sternhammer is that I have to use the IF Faction Objectives, and I hate them - I'll go back to using a Gladius most games. But, not The Gladius.



That actually does make it better. Do you know if that's how it was going to be all along? Or did the TO decide that halfway through the tournament - and didn't tell anyone - when the winner was already pre-determined?



Yes and no. I try to avoid letting people spend money on models they can't use. "Friends are better than Wraithknights." came from an actual conversation I had. Now that Traitor's Hate/Traitor Legions is out, I can actually tell people that they aren't totally wasting their money when they buy Chaos Marines.



Play to your meta.
When I lose to someone, and they say "My list isn't even that good." what I hear is; "My list isn't even that good, and you still lost to it, GG scrub. P.S. 'GG' means 'Get Good'."



The Good (i.e; Stuff I expect to see)
Autarch; Jetbike, Shard of Anaris Although I really expect a Farseer, any model that holds the Shard of Anaris should show up in an Eldar army list.
Farseer; Jetbike, Spirit Stones
x4 units of minimum Jetbikes albeit without Scatter Lasers/Shuriken Cannons
Crimson Hunter
Warp Spiders
Culexus

The Bad - For Eldar, that is. Remembering that 'bad' in the Eldar Codex is still better than most things in other Codecies.
Shining Spears - Could be a Warlock Conclave instead.

Dark Reapers

The Ugly (i.e; Actually bad, even for Eldar)
One Fire Prism, singular

The List certainly could do with improvements. I think the biggest flaw in your list is that you have Warp Spiders, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers, and didn't make it an Aspect Host for no reason. Also, one Fire Prism? Pretty sure you could ditch it for a Wave Serpent, and ditch the Dark Reapers for Fire Dragons. In doing so, you'd straight the trade the 'Reapers for 'Dragons, and you'd still have the ability to bring an Aspect Host. The only unit that doesn't belong in an Aspect Host are Dire Avengers, because they lose ObSec, and don't even get me started on how terrible the Dire Avenger Shrine secretly is.

Pretty much.

Yeah, we all knew. And since it's the top 6 are eligible for the draw rank really didn't matter at all.

I think he already has the models, but if not, I'd certainly wouldn't recommend he uses them.

That's what makes him problematic, he doesn't match the meta, so you almost need a list just to face him.

Oh, I know I can optimize it more, I was actually worried that I optimized it too much. Though the formation thing is because the tournament restricted us to 2 detachments max, so I couldn't take a Culexus without giving up my Aspect Host.

[Drasius]

Why are DCA that bad though? 4 S4 AP3 attacks at I6 on the charge is nothing to sneeze at, especially what with rerollable saves from the priest. Not super efficient point wise, but in relatively casual games they shouldn't be that bad.

Anybody have an opinion on the secutarii peltasts? It seems that forgeworld forgot they were relentless when they made the rules for the special ammo.

You literally answered both your questions in the sentance directly following them. Nobody cares about str4 attacks because anything anyone cares about is either 2+ armour, a 4++ or better and often both at once, probably while being T5 to boot. Cool, you jump your DCA out of the land raider and blend a 5 man unit of marines, then consolidate d6 and get blown to bits next shooting phase. Rad, that was totally worth the 200 points for the squad and the 250 points for the land raider to get them there to kill those 85 points of marines.

Peltasts are broken good. Anyone who can read thier unit entry should know this.

[Tehnar]

Regarding your list, ForumExplorer:


Personally I prefer Dark Reapers over Fire Dragons but YMMV dependent on the meta. Personally I use them to take care of enemy (jet)bikes, and keep them alive with a Shadowseer with Veil of Tears.
I don't like Shining Spears, they are a low wounds, not that tough unit with no assault grenades. I've lose a few when assaulting fire warriors, not to mention anything stronger. And they die just as fast as guardian jetbikes, especially against ignores cover stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

Edit: @ Forum Explorer
You said the newbie played his 4th game against you, so that's 1/1/1 and what was his other result? I'm interested since I was wondering just how far the eldar dex can take someone who's just started playing. That he went 1/1/1 at a tournament meant that someone who has literally no idea how to play managed to beat someone who was taking a tournament level list against them. I have no doubt that had you not been teaching him that you would have crushed him, so lets call his real result 1/0/2. Goes to show that while you can't quite just faceroll with an eldar list, it's not too far away from it. Nothing unexpected, but I just wnted to highlight the point.

Whoops, I almost missed this. I think he played the game another time before coming out. Maybe against the TO, they did seem to know each other. From what I figure, he borrowed one of the TOs armies, played a game, and then saw a really good deal for an Eldar army and just bought it straight up.

I know his win was against the Death Guard, though I don't know the details on what happened. Not enough range to keep up I'm guessing. It doesn't take a genius tactician to use superior range to shoot from afar while moving back. Or maybe the Death Guard couldn't kill the Wave Serpents once his Knight died, he only had plasma guns after that.

But yeah, it does really show how strong an Eldar list can be, that even a beginner can beat more experienced players.


Regarding your list, ForumExplorer:


Personally I prefer Dark Reapers over Fire Dragons but YMMV dependent on the meta. Personally I use them to take care of enemy (jet)bikes, and keep them alive with a Shadowseer with Veil of Tears.
I don't like Shining Spears, they are a low wounds, not that tough unit with no assault grenades. I've lose a few when assaulting fire warriors, not to mention anything stronger. And they die just as fast as guardian jetbikes, especially against ignores cover stuff.


Some anti-jinking is really really good. The only army I see that doesn't have Jinking stuff these days is Imperial Guard and Sisters. (Forgot about flyers for a second). Also the range is nice to actually get some first turn kills. I've never been disappointed by my Dark Reapers.

I like them, but grenades would be nice to have. They aren't used very often, so it's fun to pull them out and show them off. Same with Fire Prisms.

[Blackhawk748]

Peltasts are broken good. Anyone who can read thier unit entry should know this.

Just looked them up. SO they are Skitarii from Forge World? When did this happen???

Also, dem guns.

[Cheesegear]

Peltasts are broken good. Anyone who can read thier unit entry should know this.

"Experimental Rules. No dice."
"No ForgeWorld allowed."


Just looked them up. SO they are Skitarii from Forge World? When did this happen???

September.

[Drasius]

"Experimental Rules. No dice."
"No ForgeWorld allowed."

That doesn't fly in one of the groups I play with as the main organiser has invested heavily into FW toys and has gotten everyone keen on HH where FW is almost mandatory if you want to play. Granted it's no worry for the other group where I spend the majority of my gaming time, but yeah, there's people out there who will face them, same as people had to deal with the Y'varha when it first came out, but these are imperials, so I doubt that the nerfhammer will be used here.

Basically, if the group you play in allows them, you'd be crazy not to use them if that's the army you were running (though I'd definately not recommend that anyone rush out and get some just because they're strong now).

[Requizen]

So basically with the release of Death Guard there is essentially no reason to play Necrons at a competitive level now. Fun times. I can't think of a single thing we have better other than more reasonably costed units and maybe Wraiths if you still consider them good (hint: they're not).

[Drasius]

Tomb Blades are pretty decent T5 3+/4+++ jettbikes with twin linked ignores cover gauss cannons, night scythes are still one of the only useful air based transports, lychstar is still nigh unkillable, wraiths certainly aren't bad by any means, spyders are still 50 point MC's, heavy destroyers are still 2W jsj lascannon platforms with prefered enemy.

[Requizen]

Tomb Blades are pretty decent T5 3+/4+++ jettbikes with twin linked ignores cover gauss cannons, night scythes are still one of the only useful air based transports, lychstar is still nigh unkillable, wraiths certainly aren't bad by any means, spyders are still 50 point MC's, heavy destroyers are still 2W jsj lascannon platforms with prefered enemy.

Tomb Blades are really good against 4+ cover troops. Which is not at all the meta right now. They're good for cheap, fast, durable MSU. 3 DG Bikers with two Plasmas are nearly double the points! But... in the Vectorium they're also +1T, Stealth (most of the time), have grenades, are better in combat, have guns that ignore relevant armor, and are ObSec. Which is pretty good, if you think about it. And by that I mean extremely good.

Night Scythes are overpriced, Lychstar and Spyders are not good at a competitive level, and Wraiths are only scary against bad armies. Heavy Destroyers are neat and all but you're still paying 50 melta bombs for a single shot per turn.

Necron's schtick at a competitive level was to go relatively MSU and be extremely durable about it. We don't have ObSec (because you're always in a Decurion) and our special/heavy weapons are rare and expensive, but we'll wear you down because you can't kill enough of us. Now DG have that that same ability (FNP rr1 is only slighly worse than 4+ RP, and MoN means they're tougher than us almost across the board), but can play the scoring game and have way more specials/heavies available (including melta to help against Knights). Fast Deathstars, too, which is the main bane of the Necron existence.

There's a reason the only Necrons you see at top tables are playing gimmick lists or have allied in Riptide Wings. I'm not saying we're a trash army now, but it is more than a bit frustrating to see a new army with your same theme (unkillable, implacable advance) but with none of your weaknesses (no ObSec, low amount of special/heavy weaponry, slow overall speed). If I were starting a new competitive force and I wanted to play something hard to kill, I don't see a single reason to bring Necrons over DG other than fluffy ones.

[Cheesegear]

There's a reason the only Necrons you see at top tables are playing gimmick lists or have allied in Riptide Wings. I'm not saying we're a trash army now, but it is more than a bit frustrating to see a new army with your same theme (unkillable, implacable advance) but with none of your weaknesses (no ObSec, low amount of special/heavy weaponry, slow overall speed). If I were starting a new competitive force and I wanted to play something hard to kill, I don't see a single reason to bring Necrons over DG other than fluffy ones.

Destroyer Cults are neat.
Obelisks work against Fliers.

Mobility is also super important; I'll go back to Destroyer Cults. But Wraiths and Praetorians also work.

[Requizen]

Destroyer Cults are neat.
Obelisks work against Fliers.

Mobility is also super important; I'll go back to Destroyer Cults. But Wraiths and Praetorians also work.

DCults are about the only thing that work, and again, extremely expensive per model for low number of shots.
Since when are fliers in the meta? Heldrakes and maybe Stormravens? Not worth an expensive superheavy with meh shooting.

I'm working on a DCult list with flyers, I'm not giving up on Necrons. I'm just struggling in the meta currently, and seeing another army that more or less fixes the issues I'm having is kind of putting me on tilt.

[DaedalusMkV]

So basically with the release of Death Guard there is essentially no reason to play Necrons at a competitive level now. Fun times. I can't think of a single thing we have better other than more reasonably costed units and maybe Wraiths if you still consider them good (hint: they're not).

Eh. I've been fiddling around with Death Guard lists for two days now, and I'm not entirely sure I agree. Short of some purpose-built Death Guard shenanigans that would never have worked before (You have seventy Chaos Marines on foot? Sixteen with Autocannons? And 14 Bikers with six Melta Guns? I sure don't. And that's for Eternal War. Maelstrom Death Guard are an exercise in 'how many Bikes and Raptors can I fit into one army') I don't know that they can match a well-constructed Necron list. While individual Death Guard are extremely efficient for their points cost, Chaos Marines are just expensive once you've finished with all their upgrades and Death Guard HQ choices are even more so. You want that Chaos Warband? That's at least 160 points for the Lord, 170 for the Sorcerer. Want a Cult of Destruction because Death Guard Obliterators are super special awesome and make your opponent rip their hair out trying to kill them? The Warpsmith is 135 points before you buy him an invulnerable save.

It's not that Death Guard aren't good. They definitely, definitely are. I basically converted my old list to Death Guard and watched everything become twice as hard to kill in exchange for dropping my Raptors and my Chaos Lord having to switch his Axe of Blind Fury for a badly inferior Plaguebringer. But better than Necrons, who can achieve similar (if not quite as great) levels of durability without needing to spend over 200 points per unit no matter what kind of unit you want? Not to mention Death Guard vehicles being just as inferior as ever, though admittedly Necron vehicles aren't anything special these days either.

I mean, Death Guard will probably beat Necrons these days, because in a fight between two unkillable rocks with mediocre offensive potential, the rock that gets to say "nuh-uh, you don't have ObSec, I get the thing anyways" is usually going to win. But Necrons can actually fight Eldar, because good long-range guns and plenty of mobility, often in the same package. Death Guard? Unless you've got the 'max Havocs with Autocannons' composition that nobody has, you just aren't mobile enough to do much to them.

[Requizen]

But Necrons can actually fight Eldar, because good long-range guns and plenty of mobility, often in the same package. Death Guard? Unless you've got the 'max Havocs with Autocannons' composition that nobody has, you just aren't mobile enough to do much to them.

I was with you the whole time up until this point. I agree I may be overreacting a smidge, but to say Necrons can combat Eldar by long-range guns and plenty of mobility is wrong on pretty much all counts. I've beaten tourney Eldar twice, both times to bad decision making on their part. The games I came close on, were games of attrition where I sat on objectives with durable units and sent chaff to try and tie up or distract him. Death Guard can do that just fine.

In fact, they're probably better for the matchup since they can interact in the Psychic Phase (assuming you'll have a Cabal because of course you will) and have fast things that can get to and kill a WK with Lords and Sorcs on bikes. There are matchups where Necrons will still be better than DG but that is not one of them, imo.

[Forum Explorer]

So basically with the release of Death Guard there is essentially no reason to play Necrons at a competitive level now. Fun times. I can't think of a single thing we have better other than more reasonably costed units and maybe Wraiths if you still consider them good (hint: they're not).

So how are Wraiths bad? :smallconfused: 2 wounds each, T5 so you can almost never instant kill them, 3++, rending, a 12 inch move, and if you are investing heavily in them, it's worth it to pick up the formation to give them Reanimation, since Scarabs and Spyders are very cheap point wise. Oh, and they completely ignore the effects of cover.

[LeSwordfish]

Eh. I've been fiddling around with Death Guard lists for two days now, and I'm not entirely sure I agree. Short of some purpose-built Death Guard shenanigans that would never have worked before (You have seventy Chaos Marines on foot? Sixteen with Autocannons? And 14 Bikers with six Melta Guns? I sure don't. And that's for Eternal War. Maelstrom Death Guard are an exercise in 'how many Bikes and Raptors can I fit into one army') I don't know that they can match a well-constructed Necron list. While individual Death Guard are extremely efficient for their points cost, Chaos Marines are just expensive once you've finished with all their upgrades and Death Guard HQ choices are even more so. You want that Chaos Warband? That's at least 160 points for the Lord, 170 for the Sorcerer. Want a Cult of Destruction because Death Guard Obliterators are super special awesome and make your opponent rip their hair out trying to kill them? The Warpsmith is 135 points before you buy him an invulnerable save.

It's not that Death Guard aren't good. They definitely, definitely are. I basically converted my old list to Death Guard and watched everything become twice as hard to kill in exchange for dropping my Raptors and my Chaos Lord having to switch his Axe of Blind Fury for a badly inferior Plaguebringer. But better than Necrons, who can achieve similar (if not quite as great) levels of durability without needing to spend over 200 points per unit no matter what kind of unit you want? Not to mention Death Guard vehicles being just as inferior as ever, though admittedly Necron vehicles aren't anything special these days either.

I mean, Death Guard will probably beat Necrons these days, because in a fight between two unkillable rocks with mediocre offensive potential, the rock that gets to say "nuh-uh, you don't have ObSec, I get the thing anyways" is usually going to win. But Necrons can actually fight Eldar, because good long-range guns and plenty of mobility, often in the same package. Death Guard? Unless you've got the 'max Havocs with Autocannons' composition that nobody has, you just aren't mobile enough to do much to them.


I'm coming to agree with this. Death Guard is far and away the best thing CSM can do, but it's one-note at best because everything that isnt "three points for a kazillion special rules" is still out of the CSM codex. You can pump a Chaos Warband full of things and pick up a single spawn to re-roll ones, but... that's it. You still can't do anything against gargantuans, you're still vulnerable to grav, you still get rolled by drop pods... It's a massive boost in power, but when the dust clears I think Chaos will be only "above average".

[Requizen]

So how are Wraiths bad? :smallconfused: 2 wounds each, T5 so you can almost never instant kill them, 3++, rending, a 12 inch move, and if you are investing heavily in them, it's worth it to pick up the formation to give them Reanimation, since Scarabs and Spyders are very cheap point wise. Oh, and they completely ignore the effects of cover.

I've used them heavily during 7th edition. Fast and durable is great. AP- and relying on 6s to ignore Armor is not. T5 is awesome against Bolters, but not so much against Scat, Warp Spiders, D, Grav, Tau shooting, etc. 3++ is great until you have to roll 15 saves and lose half the unit, because the strong shooting units in the game don't care about Toughness.

Not a bad unit, but they become less effective the further up the tier list you go. Trying to get to the top tables with Wraiths is an exercise in frustration unless you go some sort of Wraithstar and get lucky.


I'm coming to agree with this. Death Guard is far and away the best thing CSM can do, but it's one-note at best because everything that isnt "three points for a kazillion special rules" is still out of the CSM codex. You can pump a Chaos Warband full of things and pick up a single spawn to re-roll ones, but... that's it. You still can't do anything against gargantuans, you're still vulnerable to grav, you still get rolled by drop pods... It's a massive boost in power, but when the dust clears I think Chaos will be only "above average".

Sure, they're not going to be taking over top spot, but that's not what I'm talking about. I honestly believe they're going to occupy the same tier as Necrons, which is "curbstomp the average/below average codices, get rolled on by SM/Eldar/Tau(/AdMech)". I'm merely venting my frustration about my comparison between the two armies.

[Drasius]

... but it is more than a bit frustrating to see a new army with your same theme (unkillable, implacable advance) but with none of your weaknesses (no ObSec, low amount of special/heavy weaponry, slow overall speed).

As a (primary) CSM player listening to a (primary) necron player say this, I find not a single ounce of sympathy. As someone who thinks you're a pretty cool person for some faceless random on the other side of the interwebs, I feel your pain. It's a difficult frame of mind to be in.


If I were starting a new competitive force and I wanted to play something hard to kill, I don't see a single reason to bring Necrons over DG other than fluffy ones.

Agreed.


Eh. I've been fiddling around with Death Guard lists for two days now, and I'm not entirely sure I agree. Short of some purpose-built Death Guard shenanigans that would never have worked before (You have seventy Chaos Marines on foot? Sixteen with Autocannons? And 14 Bikers with six Melta Guns? I sure don't. And that's for Eternal War. Maelstrom Death Guard are an exercise in 'how many Bikes and Raptors can I fit into one army') I don't know that they can match a well-constructed Necron list. While individual Death Guard are extremely efficient for their points cost, Chaos Marines are just expensive once you've finished with all their upgrades and Death Guard HQ choices are even more so. You want that Chaos Warband? That's at least 160 points for the Lord, 170 for the Sorcerer. Want a Cult of Destruction because Death Guard Obliterators are super special awesome and make your opponent rip their hair out trying to kill them? The Warpsmith is 135 points before you buy him an invulnerable save.

It's not that Death Guard aren't good. They definitely, definitely are. I basically converted my old list to Death Guard and watched everything become twice as hard to kill in exchange for dropping my Raptors and my Chaos Lord having to switch his Axe of Blind Fury for a badly inferior Plaguebringer. But better than Necrons, who can achieve similar (if not quite as great) levels of durability without needing to spend over 200 points per unit no matter what kind of unit you want? Not to mention Death Guard vehicles being just as inferior as ever, though admittedly Necron vehicles aren't anything special these days either.

I mean, Death Guard will probably beat Necrons these days, because in a fight between two unkillable rocks with mediocre offensive potential, the rock that gets to say "nuh-uh, you don't have ObSec, I get the thing anyways" is usually going to win. But Necrons can actually fight Eldar, because good long-range guns and plenty of mobility, often in the same package. Death Guard? Unless you've got the 'max Havocs with Autocannons' composition that nobody has, you just aren't mobile enough to do much to them.

If you're playing chaos for the last few years, you should definately have at least 12 autocannon havoks, a handful of plague marines (about 21'ish) and at least 1 if not 2 squads of melta bikes and a nurgle fisty/claw biker lord all ready to go.

CSM lords are not even close to expensive for what they bring. There's a reason why one of CSM's only contested slots was the HQ slot. Sorcs aren't mandatory either, so you've saved yourself 170 points there. Want Oblits? Take the sorc you were going to jam into the warband and run him as a DG CAD and take 2x min cultists and as many oblits as you like for less overall than the cult of destruction would have run you (with less special rules, but unless you're taking at least 5 oblits, the cult is a huge tax anyway).

Nurgle was the only thing that you could run to stay remotely competative until Traitor legions dropped and they only got better. Whatever you were doing before is going to be even better now for 0 points, but other armies and even other playstyles have been opened up for non-nurgle armies which is a nice change. I still think that nurgle is going to dominate just as much as before though, which is unfortunate. For those of you who play all maestrom all the time, then I suspect all you'll be seeing is alpha legion because everything infiltrating and never handing over warlord until you're tabled is lulzy in the extreme, but nurgle bikers is also highly likely because T6 3+/5+++ with 3+ jink for 26 odd points each is crazy good.


So how are Wraiths bad? :smallconfused: 2 wounds each, T5 so you can almost never instant kill them, 3++, rending, a 12 inch move, and if you are investing heavily in them, it's worth it to pick up the formation to give them Reanimation, since Scarabs and Spyders are very cheap point wise. Oh, and they completely ignore the effects of cover.

They are insufficiently killy against scary things to be a "real" melee unit, nor able to fight their way out of a tarpit on demand in conjunction with the critical existance failure of the Spyder from the Harvest against any player who knows what they're doing is their only real weakness. Against the shooting that eldar/tau/grav marines can put out, even T5 2W 3++ is insufficient defense. Like Requizen said, they're an insumountable hurdle for almost any have not codex and you'll be able to face roll many a casual army and/or player with 3 harvests in a decurion but against top tier armies played by people who know what they're doing, that's not enough. I still contend that they're sufficiently good for everyone but the top 1% of players though.

[Forum Explorer]

I've used them heavily during 7th edition. Fast and durable is great. AP- and relying on 6s to ignore Armor is not. T5 is awesome against Bolters, but not so much against Scat, Warp Spiders, D, Grav, Tau shooting, etc. 3++ is great until you have to roll 15 saves and lose half the unit, because the strong shooting units in the game don't care about Toughness.

Not a bad unit, but they become less effective the further up the tier list you go. Trying to get to the top tables with Wraiths is an exercise in frustration unless you go some sort of Wraithstar and get lucky.



Sure, they're not going to be taking over top spot, but that's not what I'm talking about. I honestly believe they're going to occupy the same tier as Necrons, which is "curbstomp the average/below average codices, get rolled on by SM/Eldar/Tau(/AdMech)". I'm merely venting my frustration about my comparison between the two armies.

Okay, but I'd still say that they are pretty much one of the strongest melee units in the game. (Also they are S6 right?)

Striking Scorpions: Stealth and Shrouded and Inflitrate means they'll get to their target relatively intact, but they don't ignore armor, with an extra 'attack' that wounds on a 4+. The exarch is S6 AP2, and is devestating in a challenge. But other then that, T3, 3+ armor, 6 inch move. Still a strong unit. Worse then Wraiths in almost every way.

Howling Banshees: +3" to runs and charges. The entire squad has power weapons, and ignores Overwatch. The exarch is likely S5 AP2 and reduces the enemy LD by 2. However they are S3 T3, with a 4+ save, and a 6 inch move. Strong, but fragile and very easy to get shot to death. Worse then Wraiths because they simply can't take a hit for the unit to be viable, and typically need 5+ to wound the enemy in the first place.

Warlock Conclave: Not really a melee unit, but they are capable in melee, so I included them. Fleshbane, Armorbane with Soulblaze. 4++. Likely has a Farseer to back them up. Likely on Jetbikes for a 3+ armor and 12 inch move. They generate a lot of powers, which can make them even better, or their opponent worse, depending. Or to simply allow the Farseer to spam spells like crazy. Very good, but 50 points a model if they are on Jetbikes, and they still get out performed by Wraiths because they never ignore armor saves. More durable if they are on Jetbikes, less durable, slower, and less useful powers if they are on foot (but much cheaper). Jetbike Warlocks are close, but I'd say Wraiths are better at melee then they are, it's just the other uses of Warlocks that make them better.

Shining Spears: Fast, durable 3+ with a 3+ Jink. S6 AP 3 on the charge, so they hit hard. Skilled Rider lets them mostly ignore terrain (except on the charge), Exarch brings a S8 AP 2 weapon to the table, and gets to reroll against monsterous creatures and vehicles. Pretty strong. But they lose their bonuses off the charge, going to S3 power weapons, they only have 1 attack each, and no ability to leave combat. Wraiths outperform them in pretty much every way.

Avatar of Khaine: Strong, WS 10, S8, AP 2, with 5 attacks base. Provides a bubble of Fearless, Rage, and Furious Charge. Has a 3+ armor and 5++. Really good. But slow, with a 6 inch movement. T6 means he's relatively fragile, and a 5++ isn't doing him a lot against plasma and grav. Fun and strong, and really good against an enemy army that has to get close. Against a shooty army? Wraiths will outperform him. Otherwise I'd say the Avatar is better, particularly if combo'd with having multiple units of the above.

So I'd say Wraiths are a better melee unit then pretty much anything Eldar (the pretty much strongest team) has to offer. But lets look at some other teams.

Tyranids:

Genestealers: 5+ armor, T4, and a 6 inch move. Rending is good, but not enough. Wraiths are better.

Warriors: 4+ armor, T4, and a 6 inch move. Can have guns, rending, and have 3 wounds. But easy to instant kill, and weak armor. Expensive points wise if you give them guns and rending as well. Wraiths are better.

Ravenors: 5+ armor, T4, and LD 6 if they lose synapse. Still decent with a 12 inch move, 4 attacks base, 3 wounds and deep strike. Easy to instant kill though. Wraiths are better.

Lictors: 5+ armor, T4, 6 inch move. But they have inflitrate, stealth, and act like teleport homers. Have 3 wounds and rending as well. But easy to instant kill. Wraiths are better.

Carnifex: 4 wounds, 4 attacks, and WS 3 but D3 hammer of wrath, at S9. Pretty decent, but only T6 with 3+ means they die fast. They do ignore armor saves but are I2. Wraiths are a lot better.

Swarmlord: 5 wounds, 6 inch move, and expensive as ****. Only has a 3+ against shooting, and is only T6. Ignores armor saves, and can instant kill anything, but it'd have to get into close combat first. 4++ against melee attacks. Wraiths are a lot better.

So Wraiths are pretty much better then the melee focus'd Tyranids.

and I'm running out of things I'm actually knowledgeable about. I'm pretty sure they'll beat many other melee units in other armies as well though.

But yes, shooting is better then melee, so even a really good melee unit will look bad against dedicated shooting armies.

However, Necrons typically have weak melee and are pretty slow moving. Wraiths nullify that weakness, being fast and really good at melee. What they can't outright beat, they can typically tie up for the rest of the game. And even against shooting and stuff, they are still decent. So I would recommend for pretty much any Necron army.

[DaedalusMkV]

CSM lords are not even close to expensive for what they bring. There's a reason why one of CSM's only contested slots was the HQ slot. Sorcs aren't mandatory either, so you've saved yourself 170 points there. Want Oblits? Take the sorc you were going to jam into the warband and run him as a DG CAD and take 2x min cultists and as many oblits as you like for less overall than the cult of destruction would have run you (with less special rules, but unless you're taking at least 5 oblits, the cult is a huge tax anyway).

Nurgle was the only thing that you could run to stay remotely competative until Traitor legions dropped and they only got better. Whatever you were doing before is going to be even better now for 0 points, but other armies and even other playstyles have been opened up for non-nurgle armies which is a nice change. I still think that nurgle is going to dominate just as much as before though, which is unfortunate. For those of you who play all maestrom all the time, then I suspect all you'll be seeing is alpha legion because everything infiltrating and never handing over warlord until you're tabled is lulzy in the extreme, but nurgle bikers is also highly likely because T6 3+/5+++ with 3+ jink for 26 odd points each is crazy good.


When was the last time you saw someone take a non-Typhus Nurgle Lord? Go ahead. I'll wait. Yeah, that's what I thought. Generic Khorne Lords were great, throwing around the Axe of Blind Fury or even just Fist/Claw on a Juggernaut for a model with 9 S9 (or S5 Shred) attacks on the charge with no lack of survivability. Nurgle has been relying on Sorcerers and Typhus HQs for ages (and most old Chaos lists didn't give the Sorcs Marks), and Death Guard don't want Typhus, because they aren't taking Cultists (why would you? Generic CSM do everything Plague Zombies do better when you're Death Guard) and Typhus is too expensive otherwise. Death Guard don't want Plague Marines, because Plague Marines don't benefit from their rules at all. Death Guard want massed Autocannon Havoks (which, I don't know about you, but I haven't seen on a table ever despite plenty of Theoryhammer, since Nurgleblits actually had models and AC Havocs need to either order 30k stuff from Forge World or Convert Your Own), two or three squads of 10-man generic CSM with Autocannon and Plasma and a Chosen-tax that I guess you could just use an old Plague Marine squad setup for. Nurgle Spawn were much more popular than Nurgle Bikers, because more Wounds for less points, but you don't really want those either, because Bikers are better now (and ObSec, for giggles).


I have never seen a Chaos Marine army that looked remotely like what the optimal NuDeath Guard list looks like now, and if you have you operate in a very different meta from mine. Yeah, the "I have fifteen Bikers and seventy CSM with 30 S7 AP4 shots with Relentless, all ObSec. Good luck getting me off the objective" lists are going to be really strong, but I don't know if anyone will ever play that list. Because it's still not as good as Eldar, and it's going to cost a hell of a lot of money to put it together.

[Requizen]

Okay, but I'd still say that they are pretty much one of the strongest melee units in the game. (Also they are S6 right?)
Not really. And S6 does nothing against the targets that matter nowadays.

Striking Scorpions:
Howling Banshees:
Warlock Conclave:
Shining Spears:
Avatar of Khaine:
So I'd say Wraiths are a better melee unit then pretty much anything Eldar (the pretty much strongest team) has to offer. But lets look at some other teams.
All of those are (from a competitive standpoint) joke units. The only melee unit in Eldar that matters is the Wraithknight (and maybe Wraithblades if you're bringing the formation, they're sorta killy). And Wraiths are nothing compared to the WK.


Tyranids:

Genestealers:
Warriors:
Ravenors:
Lictors:
Carnifex:
Swarmlord:
So Wraiths are pretty much better then the melee focus'd Tyranids.
Yeah, considering the fact that Nids outside of Flyrants aren't even worth talking about, "melee combat" Nids are on a completely different level of bad. That's kind of like saying that a Tactical Marine is the pinnacle of shooting prowess because Orks only hit on 5s and have pistol range.

The melee units that matter in the game, in no order, include: KDK/Cabal star, Imperial star, Wulfen, Wraithknights, TWC, and maybe Knights. And Stormsurges on occasion if they're in units of 2, lol. Essentially, things that carry Thunderhammers or have Stomp. Or, in the case of KDK, have so many buffed attacks that you're throwing buckets of dice, but unlike Orks those dice actually do things.

Most "dedicated melee units" in the game are bad at being that. They're designed to be good at killing a unit of Marines or the equivalent, but nobody cares about the melee efficacy of a unit of Marines. Wraiths can tear through Tau, Marines, and Guardians like they weren't even there, but the only thing you use them for against Deathstars or GCs/SHVs is as a speed bump.

[Forum Explorer]

Wow. Well, all I can say is that if you're in a meta that is so competitive that even Wraiths can't keep up, then I feel bad for you. :smalleek: :smallfrown: I mean, I'd flat out leave or stop playing if that was the meta I had.

Or is that only your tourny meta? Do you play in a lot of tournaments? The tournaments I play in are small and infrequent. So most of the time it's casual play.

[Requizen]

Wow. Well, all I can say is that if you're in a meta that is so competitive that even Wraiths can't keep up, then I feel bad for you. :smalleek: :smallfrown: I mean, I'd flat out leave or stop playing if that was the meta I had.

Or is that only your tourny meta? Do you play in a lot of tournaments? The tournaments I play in are small and infrequent. So most of the time it's casual play.

I was discussing tournament level, apologies if I didn't make that clear. My local game night meta is pretty casual, but the other group I play with regularly are tourney-goers and most of our get-togethers are practice games. I try to go to one RTT a month if I can swing it and whatever GTs are in the area, so I have pretty regular tournament attendance.

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, personally i'm almost disappointed that my chosen CSM army are good now. I chose them because they sucked, dammit! I'm gonna pick up some bikes so I have the full Chaos Warband, then go in on my Night Lords.

[Blackhawk748]

I think Necrons are better at killing vehicles than Death Guard, but thats because the Gauss Flayer is just a great weapon. Frankly i think its a horse a piece, i still think Necrons have more variance in their lists than Death Guard do or ever will. At least until the new Dex drops.


I mean, personally i'm almost disappointed that my chosen CSM army are good now. I chose them because they sucked, dammit! I'm gonna pick up some bikes so I have the full Chaos Warband, then go in on my Night Lords.

Theres like, what, 2 Legions that actually "suck" now? World Eaters (but you should be running them with KDK anywyay) and Thousand Sons. Word Bearers aint great, but they are workable, much like Black Legion.

Note that im talking in a competitively casual environment.

[Drasius]

When was the last time you saw someone take a non-Typhus Nurgle Lord? Go ahead. I'll wait. Yeah, that's what I thought. Generic Khorne Lords were great, throwing around the Axe of Blind Fury or even just Fist/Claw on a Juggernaut for a model with 9 S9 (or S5 Shred) attacks on the charge with no lack of survivability. Nurgle has been relying on Sorcerers and Typhus HQs for ages (and most old Chaos lists didn't give the Sorcs Marks), and Death Guard don't want Typhus, because they aren't taking Cultists (why would you? Generic CSM do everything Plague Zombies do better when you're Death Guard) and Typhus is too expensive otherwise. Death Guard don't want Plague Marines, because Plague Marines don't benefit from their rules at all. Death Guard want massed Autocannon Havoks (which, I don't know about you, but I haven't seen on a table ever despite plenty of Theoryhammer, since Nurgleblits actually had models and AC Havocs need to either order 30k stuff from Forge World or Convert Your Own), two or three squads of 10-man generic CSM with Autocannon and Plasma and a Chosen-tax that I guess you could just use an old Plague Marine squad setup for. Nurgle Spawn were much more popular than Nurgle Bikers, because more Wounds for less points, but you don't really want those either, because Bikers are better now (and ObSec, for giggles).


I have never seen a Chaos Marine army that looked remotely like what the optimal NuDeath Guard list looks like now, and if you have you operate in a very different meta from mine. Yeah, the "I have fifteen Bikers and seventy CSM with 30 S7 AP4 shots with Relentless, all ObSec. Good luck getting me off the objective" lists are going to be really strong, but I don't know if anyone will ever play that list. Because it's still not as good as Eldar, and it's going to cost a hell of a lot of money to put it together.

You don't have to wait long because it was always the juggerlord or the nurgle fist/claw biker and only one of those unlocked plague marines (ie. the only usable non-cultist choice the dex had). As for the knorne lord having no lack of surviability, then I question how they were being played. The juggerlord was pretty much assured of being on the dead pile by turn 4/5, though not until he'd taken out quite a few things.

Nobody cares about zombies because they don't get any saves against S6 and Plague marines are also fearless but at T5 with 3+/5+++ and 2 specials at 5 men. Typhus moves 6" a turn and is thus irrelevant. Generic CSM do nothing better than zombies since they're not fearless and cost more points. In fact, I'd say that generic CSM have virtually no redeeming qualities against zombies.

As for autohavoks, I saw them quite often. The conversion from a heavy bolter literally just involves glueing the barrel extension of choice to the muzzle of the heavy bolter and since you get one in the CSM kit that will never get used by anyone, you can basically get them for nothing if you ask anyone at all who'se ever brought a CSM kit.

Generic CSM with autocannon? Why would anyone ever take anything but double specials? It's double plasma or double melta, no exceptions.

You had a bunch of people who had nurgle bikers since that was one of the few places that you could get a mobile melta gun and they also made a nice guard for your lord (though spawn usually did a better job, it's true).

Old Death Guard was something like this IIRC:


170 - Lord, MoN, Bike, Fist, Claw, Sigil, Grenades
145 - Sorc, ML3, Bike, Familiar
185 - 5x Plauge marines, 2x Plasma, Rhino
185 - 5x Plauge marines, 2x Plasma, Rhino
175 - 5x Plauge marines, 2x Melta, Rhino
170 - Heldrake
108 - 3x Bikers, MoN, 2x Melta
108 - 3x Bikers, MoN, 2x Melta
237 - 3x Oblits, MoN, VotLW
110 - 5x Havoks, 4x Autocannons
110 - 5x Havoks, 4x Autocannons

1703


There was a bit of wiggle room with replacing a set of havoks with a set of oblits or bulking the bikes out as ablative wounds for the lord/melta guns. 3x Nurgle Spawn are also 108, so they made for an easy switch if you wanted to, though some people also ran a second or even third heldrake. You didn't usually see cultists as there was never much need if you were already meeting min requirements with marines and you didn't rock typhus for zombies. Some people liked to bulk out their marines to 7 men for fluff too, especially in comp style events. None of this is terribly different from New Death Guard. Lord is the same, sorc is optional like before but has to be marked, your plagues can very easily be MoN marines, your FA choice is bikers, your HS is havoks now you just need to figure out your elite tax and a couple of spawn are your Aux choice. Job's a good'un boss. For those of you who were running double drakes, just slot a heldrake wing back in and you're good to go.


Warband Core
170 - Lord, MoN, Bike, Fist, Claw, Sigil, Grenades
160 - Sorc, MoN, ML3, Bike, Familiar
235 - 10x Marines, MoN, 2x Plasma, Rhino
225 - 10x Marines, MoN, 2x Melta, Rhino
108 - 3x Bikers, MoN, 2x Melta
130 - 5x Havoks, MoN, 4x Autocannons
130 - 3x Termies, MoN, 3x Combis

Aux
108 - 1x Spawn, MoN

Heldrake Terror Pack
170 - Heldrake
170 - Heldrake

1606

Feel free to cram some more marines in for some more specials, though it really doesn't matter much what type of marine you opt for, vanilla, plague, havok, terminator, biker or chosen. You can even ditch the heldrakes if you want but I'd just take 2 more havok squads to open transports (looking at you gladius!) and let the drakes roast them.


In mildy related news, I just realised yesterday that with the option of moninating any CSM detatchment as being a specific legion detatchment, you can now get cult units as troops in an allied detatchment. While not a notable thing to anyone else, I may now run my Sons as an allied detatchment to Tz daemons instead of the other way around. This pleases me greatly.

[Drasius]

Wow. Well, all I can say is that if you're in a meta that is so competitive that even Wraiths can't keep up, then I feel bad for you. :smalleek: :smallfrown: I mean, I'd flat out leave or stop playing if that was the meta I had.

Or is that only your tourny meta? Do you play in a lot of tournaments? The tournaments I play in are small and infrequent. So most of the time it's casual play.

This is why there's sometimes a disconnect when certain people talk about what is good. Many of the people here who give advice will do so from a highly competative background since if you're asking about making a better, stronger, faster list, while we do have the technology, it also means that you're clearly not just building a list for your local pick up game unless that's something you specifically stated, you're trying to increase your chance of winning. From there, the logical step is to talk about things as applied to the pointy end where units that are fine or even good at the local tournament level are dismissed as bad (and should feel bad) when we're speaking about "good" or "relevant" units.

While we're generally going to recommend you the strong stuff, if there's something anyone has said specifically that they want, it'll usually get included, though options will almost certainly be presented to "do the thing" ,as Cheese would say, a different, better way.

Personally, wraiths (and thunderbrick) are my own special hell and I don't really want to consider that they are falling by the wayside as "too weak" or "not killy enough" in the new meta, but that's where we're headed. Doubly so since my army just got an update and it's STILL at the bottom of the pack and already unplayably bad even in casual games, so I'm not quite sure what to make of it or how to proceed from here.

[*.*.*.*]

Anyone have any experience with a Vraks unending host?

[Blackhawk748]

Heres some SoB leaks


http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/AI-sor-203.jpg
http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/IA-sor-204.jpg
http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/AI-sor-202.jpg


Ya its a copy paste job (which is what i expected) and that Detachment is just crap. Come talk to me when you stick Penitent Engines in the Elites and i might actually use the slot.


Anyone have any experience with a Vraks unending host?

I havent used it myself, but from what i've heard on Dakka, its pretty solid, just remember to spam the ever loving crap out of your Renegades.

[Grim Portent]

Unending Host is good if you don't mind you army being made of innacurate mooks and having to move tons of models around. Of course those two reasons are kind of why you'd play Renegades in the first place. :smalltongue:

Huge piles of basic infantry with plasma guns or autocannons (with covenant of Tzeentch) that respawn on 2+ and Outflank on returning are never a bad thing, and renegades are fragile enough that it's hard to underkill them so they should usually be respawning rather than left on 2-3 models.

[Forum Explorer]

I was discussing tournament level, apologies if I didn't make that clear. My local game night meta is pretty casual, but the other group I play with regularly are tourney-goers and most of our get-togethers are practice games. I try to go to one RTT a month if I can swing it and whatever GTs are in the area, so I have pretty regular tournament attendance.

I see. I'm still surprised that Wraiths do badly on the tournament scene, or perhaps I should say, badly for Necrons. How do you deal with Scatbikes, grav guns, and Warp Spiders without them?


You don't have to wait long because it was always the juggerlord or the nurgle fist/claw biker and only one of those unlocked plague marines (ie. the only usable non-cultist choice the dex had). As for the knorne lord having no lack of surviability, then I question how they were being played. The juggerlord was pretty much assured of being on the dead pile by turn 4/5, though not until he'd taken out quite a few things.

Nobody cares about zombies because they don't get any saves against S6 and Plague marines are also fearless but at T5 with 3+/5+++ and 2 specials at 5 men. Typhus moves 6" a turn and is thus irrelevant. Generic CSM do nothing better than zombies since they're not fearless and cost more points. In fact, I'd say that generic CSM have virtually no redeeming qualities against zombies.

As for autohavoks, I saw them quite often. The conversion from a heavy bolter literally just involves glueing the barrel extension of choice to the muzzle of the heavy bolter and since you get one in the CSM kit that will never get used by anyone, you can basically get them for nothing if you ask anyone at all who'se ever brought a CSM kit.

Generic CSM with autocannon? Why would anyone ever take anything but double specials? It's double plasma or double melta, no exceptions.

You had a bunch of people who had nurgle bikers since that was one of the few places that you could get a mobile melta gun and they also made a nice guard for your lord (though spawn usually did a better job, it's true).

Old Death Guard was something like this IIRC:


170 - Lord, MoN, Bike, Fist, Claw, Sigil, Grenades
145 - Sorc, ML3, Bike, Familiar
185 - 5x Plauge marines, 2x Plasma, Rhino
185 - 5x Plauge marines, 2x Plasma, Rhino
175 - 5x Plauge marines, 2x Melta, Rhino
170 - Heldrake
108 - 3x Bikers, MoN, 2x Melta
108 - 3x Bikers, MoN, 2x Melta
237 - 3x Oblits, MoN, VotLW
110 - 5x Havoks, 4x Autocannons
110 - 5x Havoks, 4x Autocannons

1703


There was a bit of wiggle room with replacing a set of havoks with a set of oblits or bulking the bikes out as ablative wounds for the lord/melta guns. 3x Nurgle Spawn are also 108, so they made for an easy switch if you wanted to, though some people also ran a second or even third heldrake. You didn't usually see cultists as there was never much need if you were already meeting min requirements with marines and you didn't rock typhus for zombies. Some people liked to bulk out their marines to 7 men for fluff too, especially in comp style events. None of this is terribly different from New Death Guard. Lord is the same, sorc is optional like before but has to be marked, your plagues can very easily be MoN marines, your FA choice is bikers, your HS is havoks now you just need to figure out your elite tax and a couple of spawn are your Aux choice. Job's a good'un boss. For those of you who were running double drakes, just slot a heldrake wing back in and you're good to go.


Warband Core
170 - Lord, MoN, Bike, Fist, Claw, Sigil, Grenades
160 - Sorc, MoN, ML3, Bike, Familiar
235 - 10x Marines, MoN, 2x Plasma, Rhino
225 - 10x Marines, MoN, 2x Melta, Rhino
108 - 3x Bikers, MoN, 2x Melta
130 - 5x Havoks, MoN, 4x Autocannons
130 - 3x Termies, MoN, 3x Combis

Aux
108 - 1x Spawn, MoN

Heldrake Terror Pack
170 - Heldrake
170 - Heldrake

1606

Feel free to cram some more marines in for some more specials, though it really doesn't matter much what type of marine you opt for, vanilla, plague, havok, terminator, biker or chosen. You can even ditch the heldrakes if you want but I'd just take 2 more havok squads to open transports (looking at you gladius!) and let the drakes roast them.


In mildy related news, I just realised yesterday that with the option of moninating any CSM detatchment as being a specific legion detatchment, you can now get cult units as troops in an allied detatchment. While not a notable thing to anyone else, I may now run my Sons as an allied detatchment to Tz daemons instead of the other way around. This pleases me greatly.


What do you think of the Plague Colony formation? Worth taking or not? It seems pretty weak if you don't max it out, but if you do then it's really expensive.

Also what's the point difference between a Plague Marine and a CSM with MoN?

[DaedalusMkV]

You don't have to wait long because it was always the juggerlord or the nurgle fist/claw biker and only one of those unlocked plague marines (ie. the only usable non-cultist choice the dex had). As for the knorne lord having no lack of surviability, then I question how they were being played. The juggerlord was pretty much assured of being on the dead pile by turn 4/5, though not until he'd taken out quite a few things.

Yeah, he usually died, but that was always to be expected, and he usually wiped a unit or two along the way.

Anyways, suffice to say that the Death Guard you saw in your meta are very different from any Chaos list I ever saw being used in the North American meta at a tournament level in 7th edition. Plague Marines only showed up in small numbers in Typhus lists, Havocs were a non-starter and if the list was Nurgly, it was a Typhus list.

I'll also disagree on what a 'good' Death Guard list looks like right now (you do know they have Relentless, right? Which is why we're taking AutoPlas on our generic Marines? We'd go double Autocannon if we could. Even if we're in Rhinos, which we aren't going to be in Eternal War, because we can just walk to the midline and have our Bikes claim objectives in the enemy's backfield) And that we're taking lots of generic Marines because they're just cheaper Plague Marines in NuDeath Guard?). I certainly wouldn't be burning points on Hell-turkeys that get two turns of shooting per game unless you're crazy lucky when I could have 3 TurbObliterators for 40 more points, much less 10 ObSec Relentless AutoPlagueHavocs for 20 more points.

It's the dawn of a new age. Chaos has things that are good now. Like, in the Troops slot, without wasting a zillion points on crummy Nurgle Bikelords that don't do anything. We don't need to try and prop ourselves up with 7th ed nerfed Heldrakes any more. We certainly don't need to be spamming them so we can cry when we run into enemy reserve manipulation and don't get them until turn 4 and we've already lost because we put three Turkeys in reserve. I'll put my 90-Wound list with fifteen Autocannons against your triple-Turkeys and 40 Wounds any day of the week. Of course, I'm not about to burn points on Terminators or Sorcerers either. Not when I can have six more T5 FnP bodies for the price of three Terminators or a whole squad for the price of a Sorc.



What do you think of the Plague Colony formation? Worth taking or not? It seems pretty weak if you don't max it out, but if you do then it's really expensive.

Also what's the point difference between a Plague Marine and a CSM with MoN?

Plague Colony is bad. Plague Marines without ObSec are bad.

That depends on what you're comparing. Compared to a bare-bones MoN CSM in Death Guard, you pay 8 points to get +1A, 4+ Poison in melee and Defensive Grenades. Alternatively, compared to a 2-CCW CSM, you're paying 6 points for the Poison and the 'Nades. In Death Guard, Plague Marines just are not worth it. A 50% increase in points cost for some marginal melee boosts is pretty awful.

[Drasius]

Yeah, he usually died, but that was always to be expected, and he usually wiped a unit or two along the way.

Anyways, suffice to say that the Death Guard you saw in your meta are very different from any Chaos list I ever saw being used in the North American meta at a tournament level in 7th edition. Plague Marines only showed up in small numbers in Typhus lists, Havocs were a non-starter and if the list was Nurgly, it was a Typhus list.

I'll also disagree on what a 'good' Death Guard list looks like right now (you do know they have Relentless, right? Which is why we're taking AutoPlas on our generic Marines? We'd go double Autocannon if we could. Even if we're in Rhinos, which we aren't going to be in Eternal War, because we can just walk to the midline and have our Bikes claim objectives in the enemy's backfield) And that we're taking lots of generic Marines because they're just cheaper Plague Marines in NuDeath Guard?). I certainly wouldn't be burning points on Hell-turkeys that get two turns of shooting per game unless you're crazy lucky when I could have 3 TurbObliterators for 40 more points, much less 10 ObSec Relentless AutoPlagueHavocs for 20 more points.

It's the dawn of a new age. Chaos has things that are good now. Like, in the Troops slot, without wasting a zillion points on crummy Nurgle Bikelords that don't do anything. We don't need to try and prop ourselves up with 7th ed nerfed Heldrakes any more. We certainly don't need to be spamming them so we can cry when we run into enemy reserve manipulation and don't get them until turn 4 and we've already lost because we put three Turkeys in reserve. I'll put my 90-Wound list with fifteen Autocannons against your triple-Turkeys and 40 Wounds any day of the week. Of course, I'm not about to burn points on Terminators or Sorcerers either. Not when I can have six more T5 FnP bodies for the price of three Terminators or a whole squad for the price of a Sorc.

If you play ITC, then that would explain why the metas were quite different as we don't play that here as a rule though it did gain some traction here and there and has made a bit of a comeback from what I understand from a bit of backlash crom the silly community comp that seems to have taken over.

As for autocannons instead of plasma, if I wanted to take autoplas and a million wounds I'd be playing guard instead. Trading a str 7 ap2 shot for a pair of str 7 ap 4's and 5 points might not be so bad I guess, but I still think you're going to miss the AP2 at shorter ranges.

As for the nurgle lord not doing anything, I'd beg to differ as he's basically a budget version of smashface with 90% of the capability at only 70% of the price. Also, not giving up warlord seems like a pretty good use of his time, so we'll have to agree to disagree there I think.

As for a billion T5 fnp bodies, it might work for a while, hell, I remember tournies being won by calgar and 60 tacs in drop pods but if it ever becomes popular, then the ignores cover vindicators are going to be coming out in force and there's not going to be much you can do to stop them. I agree that you'll have a bit of a resurgence, but I'm not sure that we're going to see 90 nurgle marines be a thing for long, if at all. Either way, it's definately going to be interesting to see how the meta shakes out now that CSM are at least back on the board, if not swinging for the fences. I'd wager that there's many a player who has no idea how half the units in our dex even work, so there's going to be a few surprises when they start showing up in tournies in greater numbers than in recent memory.


Plague Colony is bad. Plague Marines without ObSec are bad.

That depends on what you're comparing. Compared to a bare-bones MoN CSM in Death Guard, you pay 8 points to get +1A, 4+ Poison in melee and Defensive Grenades. Alternatively, compared to a 2-CCW CSM, you're paying 6 points for the Poison and the 'Nades. In Death Guard, Plague Marines just are not worth it. A 50% increase in points cost for some marginal melee boosts is pretty awful.

This. You're not assaulting with plague marines anyway, so what's the point? The debuff only lasts for the duration of the fight phase and is reliant on 6" move infantry to get there when their only real transport option is a rhino that they can't charge out of.

[Cheesegear]

Tomb Blades are really good against 4+ cover troops. Which is not at all the meta right now. They're good for cheap, fast, durable MSU.

I thought about this for longer than five seconds, and you're wrong. I wouldn't rate Heavy Flamers as high as I do, and then discount Tomb Blades. Pretty sure Tomb Blades are one of the best units in the book. Or, you just happen to be in one of the stale-est metas around - which the tournament scene, is.

Straight off the bat, Ignores Cover is one of the stronger rules in the game.
Eldar Jetbikes lose their 2+ Shroud save, and go back to regular 3+ Armour Saves - unless Warlocks with Protect.
Ravenwing lose their re-rollable Save, and go to regular Armour save.
Raven Guard also lose their Shroud - we'll come back to this.
...Basically, anything with a Cover Save that is better than their Armour Save, gets slightly annoyed. Especially if it's a 2+ Cover/Jink.

AP4 is the meta, unless you play against nothing but Eldar (see; Stale tournament scene).
Militarum Tempestus love Deep Striking straight into terrain and sitting on Objectives. AP4 Ignores Cover shuts that down.
Skitarii Vanguard love to Scout onto an Objective, and sit in terrain. AP4 Ignores Cover shuts that down. AP4 also targets down Kataphron Destroyers - those are the good ones.
Ditto for Space Marine Scouts, which do the same thing, and thanks to being in the 10th Company Task Force with free Stealth (+/- Camo Cloaks), you will see Scouts in a Gladius, and you need to stop that nonsense.
...Especially if they're Raven Guard Scouts. Raven Guard Scouts will nearly always precede no-Scatter Vanguard Veterans, and if you go first, you need those Scouts dead, what's worse, is that they'll have a 2+ Cover Save. AP4, Ignores Cover makes Raven Guard Scouts real sad. Not even mentioning Scout Bikes, a fair staple of a number of Marine lists. As Scouts, SBs have 4+ Armour (why do Eldar Jetbikes have 3+ Saves when their riders wear Guardian Armour?), and as part of a 10th Company - like they always are - they'll have free Stealth, which means 3+ Jink Save...Or 2+ - because Raven Guard. Scout Bikes on the board nearly always mean that Drop Pods aren't far behind. If they're Blood Angels' ones, you're about to get a Deep Strike-and-Charging, same as if you played against Raven Guard.
AP4, Ignores Cover, also kills all Guardsmen, and not even an Aegis Defense Line can save them.
Tomb Blades also kill Necron Warriors pretty good, and since Necrons run Decurions (Unless 27 Tomb Blades in a CAD, and then Destroyer Cult - It's a thing!), which means that they will have 20+ Warriors on the board.
AP4 Ignores Cover kills Dire Avengers and Rangers.
AP4 Ignores Cover generally makes Wulfen sad. Unless every Wulfen has a Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, and then the Space Wolf player has also shot himself in the foot on some level. So, it's not actually that bad.

I see value in AP4, Ignores Cover. Mostly because my meta isn't stale, and I actually see things with 4+ Armour all the time. The only reason that you wouldn't see 4+ Armour all the time, is if you exclusively played against Power Armour and Jetbikes. But, even then, I have learned to fear the humble Space Marine Scout/Bike, because they are nearly always a lynchpin unit that makes the whole army work... Unless all the Marine players in your meta only ever run Gladius Detachments...Then, yeah. Circle back to 'stale meta'.


All of those are (from a competitive standpoint) joke units.

Since Warp Spiders (Flickerjump) took a nerf, about a third-to-half of the competitive Eldar lists I see, run Seer Councils. Warlock Conclaves are not a 'joke unit'. The other half of Eldar lists I see, still run Aspect Hosts, because Warp Spiders are still good in most people's minds, even with the nerf.


In mildy related news, I just realised yesterday that with the option of moninating any CSM detatchment as being a specific legion detatchment

I'm fairly bothered with Alpha Legion. Any Every Lost & The Damned Detachment has suddenly turned Alpha Legion, giving them free Infiltrate for 0 Points. Especially concerning is the MFD, where every time a Cultist unit dies, get another unit back. Then you also have the Lost & The Damned Formation which does the same thing. Which means that for every one unit of Cultists that dies, you potentially get two units back...Which brings with it two more Characters, meaning no Slay the Warlord for anyone, ever.

Thankfully, in the Alpha Legion MFD, Cultists aren't Core.


Heres some SoB leaks

Their Detachment sucks. Just keep 'em in a CAD.

Here's a list I'll probably try out this week (Restriction: Single CAD only);

Imperial Fists, CAD
Chapter Master; Terminator Armour, Power Fist, Auspex, The Shield Eternal - 225 Points
Librarian; [Stave], ML2, Auspex, Melta Bombs, The Bones of Osrak - 125 Points

Scouts (x5); [Boltguns], Camo Cloaks - 65 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns], Camo Cloaks - 65 Points
Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 60 Points
Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles - 60 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns] - 55 Points

Sternguard (x5); x4 Combi-Meltas, Melta Bombs + Drop Pod - 190 Points
Sternguard (x5); x4 Combi-Meltas + Drop Pod - 185 Points
Sternguard (x5); x2 Heavy Flamers + Drop Pod - 165 Points

Stormtalon Gunship; Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 115 Points

Centurion Devastators (x3); Missile Launchers, Twin-Linked Lascannons, Omniscope - 250 Points

Fortress of Redemption; Krakstorm Missiles, x4 Emplaced Heavy Bolters - 290 Points

Total: 1850 Points

[Drasius]

I'm fairly bothered with Alpha Legion. Any Every Lost & The Damned Detachment has suddenly turned Alpha Legion, giving them free Infiltrate for 0 Points. Especially concerning is the MFD, where every time a Cultist unit dies, get another unit back. Then you also have the Lost & The Damned Formation which does the same thing. Which means that for every one unit of Cultists that dies, you potentially get two units back...Which brings with it two more Characters, meaning no Slay the Warlord for anyone, ever.

Thankfully, in the Alpha Legion MFD, Cultists aren't Core.

That was all a cunning ruse, they were alpha legion all along!

But yeah, for the same reason you suddenly jumped on the white scars bandwagon despite all your [painted] marines being bright yellow, because certain chapter legion tactics are just flat out better than others.

Unfortunately for you, the CSM core and the lost & damned are cheap enough to take wile also taking something else that's not terrible as well.

[LeSwordfish]

Typhus still applies to the entire army, meaning all those infiltrating, exponential cultists can be Fearless for a 330pt CAD.

[Forum Explorer]

Typhus still applies to the entire army, meaning all those infiltrating, exponential cultists can be Fearless for a 330pt CAD.

He has mark of Nurgle doesn't he? And thus isn't valid for an Alpha Legion army?

Also he's a special character and specifically forbidden that way.

[LeSwordfish]

That's why you take him in a separate detachment. Remember the Legion rules are applied to a Detachment or Formation while Typhus' rule still applies to the entire army. (Because it's an old book.)

[DaedalusMkV]

He has mark of Nurgle doesn't he? And thus isn't valid for an Alpha Legion army?

Also he's a special character and specifically forbidden that way.

Technically, not if you put him in a CAD which is not Alpha Legion. It does work, but it's pretty much as anti-fluff as you could possibly want, and probably isn't even very valuable thanks to Slow and Purposeful actually being a hindrance on the new Cultist units you generate with Alpha Legion's MFD. Still worth considering, particularly since Typhus can join up with any Alpha Legion unit he wants to and knowing the entire Nurgle discipline is actually pretty handy now thanks to Curse of the Leper. Alpha Legion probably want Typhus more than Death Guard do these days.

[Forum Explorer]

Technically, not if you put him in a CAD which is not Alpha Legion. It does work, but it's pretty much as anti-fluff as you could possibly want, and probably isn't even very valuable thanks to Slow and Purposeful actually being a hindrance on the new Cultist units you generate with Alpha Legion's MFD. Still worth considering, particularly since Typhus can join up with any Alpha Legion unit he wants to and knowing the entire Nurgle discipline is actually pretty handy now thanks to Curse of the Leper. Alpha Legion probably want Typhus more than Death Guard do these days.

...That is ridiculous. The problems of having a bunch of supplements rather then just releasing proper codexes for things I suppose.

[Cheesegear]

Especially concerning is the MFD, where every time a Cultist unit dies, get another unit back. Then you also have the Lost & The Damned Formation which does the same thing. Which means that for every one unit of Cultists that dies, you potentially get two units back...

*headdesk*
I just got the joke; Cut off one head, and two will take its place.

HYDRA DOMINATUS.

[Blackhawk748]

Their Detachment sucks. Just keep 'em in a CAD.

This is every SoB players conclusion as well. Theres a reason we joke that we dont have an Elites Slot. Plus no Ob Sec, so lame.


*headdesk*
I just got the joke; Cut off one head, and two will take its place.

HYDRA DOMINATUS.

JUST AS PLANNED!!


http://orig04.deviantart.net/abc2/f/2013/181/3/5/shhhh__i_am_hiding__by_commissarmuskeg-d6bawik.jpg

[Drasius]

*headdesk*
I just got the joke; Cut off one head, and two will take its place.

HYDRA DOMINATUS.

60 25% of the time it works everytime!


http://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Captain-America-Reveal-06282016-680x830.jpg

[Requizen]

I thought about this for longer than five seconds, and you're wrong. I wouldn't rate Heavy Flamers as high as I do, and then discount Tomb Blades. Pretty sure Tomb Blades are one of the best units in the book. Or, you just happen to be in one of the stale-est metas around - which the tournament scene, is.

Straight off the bat, Ignores Cover is one of the stronger rules in the game.
Eldar Jetbikes lose their 2+ Shroud save, and go back to regular 3+ Armour Saves - unless Warlocks with Protect.
Ravenwing lose their re-rollable Save, and go to regular Armour save.
Raven Guard also lose their Shroud - we'll come back to this.
...Basically, anything with a Cover Save that is better than their Armour Save, gets slightly annoyed. Especially if it's a 2+ Cover/Jink.

AP4 is the meta, unless you play against nothing but Eldar (see; Stale tournament scene).
Militarum Tempestus love Deep Striking straight into terrain and sitting on Objectives. AP4 Ignores Cover shuts that down.
Skitarii Vanguard love to Scout onto an Objective, and sit in terrain. AP4 Ignores Cover shuts that down. AP4 also targets down Kataphron Destroyers - those are the good ones.
Ditto for Space Marine Scouts, which do the same thing, and thanks to being in the 10th Company Task Force with free Stealth (+/- Camo Cloaks), you will see Scouts in a Gladius, and you need to stop that nonsense.
...Especially if they're Raven Guard Scouts. Raven Guard Scouts will nearly always precede no-Scatter Vanguard Veterans, and if you go first, you need those Scouts dead, what's worse, is that they'll have a 2+ Cover Save. AP4, Ignores Cover makes Raven Guard Scouts real sad. Not even mentioning Scout Bikes, a fair staple of a number of Marine lists. As Scouts, SBs have 4+ Armour (why do Eldar Jetbikes have 3+ Saves when their riders wear Guardian Armour?), and as part of a 10th Company - like they always are - they'll have free Stealth, which means 3+ Jink Save...Or 2+ - because Raven Guard. Scout Bikes on the board nearly always mean that Drop Pods aren't far behind. If they're Blood Angels' ones, you're about to get a Deep Strike-and-Charging, same as if you played against Raven Guard.
AP4, Ignores Cover, also kills all Guardsmen, and not even an Aegis Defense Line can save them.
Tomb Blades also kill Necron Warriors pretty good, and since Necrons run Decurions (Unless 27 Tomb Blades in a CAD, and then Destroyer Cult - It's a thing!), which means that they will have 20+ Warriors on the board.
AP4 Ignores Cover kills Dire Avengers and Rangers.
AP4 Ignores Cover generally makes Wulfen sad. Unless every Wulfen has a Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, and then the Space Wolf player has also shot himself in the foot on some level. So, it's not actually that bad.

I see value in AP4, Ignores Cover. Mostly because my meta isn't stale, and I actually see things with 4+ Armour all the time. The only reason that you wouldn't see 4+ Armour all the time, is if you exclusively played against Power Armour and Jetbikes. But, even then, I have learned to fear the humble Space Marine Scout/Bike, because they are nearly always a lynchpin unit that makes the whole army work... Unless all the Marine players in your meta only ever run Gladius Detachments...Then, yeah. Circle back to 'stale meta'.
Oh, you're not wrong. I agree the meta is stale, stupid, and boring. But I find, in my area at least, there is very little middle ground. Either you go to a fun store where everyone is just bringing whatever, in which case I don't worry about optimization and bring 20 Flayed Ones and what not, or you go to an event and it's nothing but BatCo, Deathstars, Eldar, and now GSC+Flyrants. It's stupid and it makes me not enjoy the game, which is why I haven't brought out my Necrons for anything but Kill Team in like 3 months.


Since Warp Spiders (Flickerjump) took a nerf, about a third-to-half of the competitive Eldar lists I see, run Seer Councils. Warlock Conclaves are not a 'joke unit'. The other half of Eldar lists I see, still run Aspect Hosts, because Warp Spiders are still good in most people's minds, even with the nerf.

I would agree with the latter part. They're still good, even with the nerf, because they get 3 movements in their own turn and then one in yours, plus H&R, and wounding most things in the game on 2s. That's Maelstrom right there.

I will retract my statement on Seer Councils. I think they're overpriced and don't do much other than huddle around some ICs and add Psychic dice to the pool, but in general that's all they need to do. I realize there's more tactics to them, but I often don't see them because the tourney Eldar list is basically cut and done for most people, which is stupid stupid stupid and I hate it.

[Drasius]

Leaks (via Naftka) from the Imperial Agents book from someone who has been known to get early access to these things before:


Codex in hand, ask away. Things I can quickly confirm:
Canonness Veridyan has a dataslate with rules. She gives out a Precision Shot/Precision Strike bubble to Adepta Sororitas units within 12". Otherwise same as a regular Canoness, but comes with a Power Sword, and she costs 85pts. My first thought - sit her near a unit of Retributors for pseudo-Snipers (ie Rending Heavy Bolters with Precision Shots). Incidentally, the cast on my model looks good - only a very minor bubble on the back of the cloak where you'll never see it. It's also got a 2016 copyright for those interested.

All the armies in the book are their own Factions, with all the implications that carries. The Valkyrie in particular is listed as-is from the Astra Militarum codex (with Faction: Aeronautica Imperialis instead). BUT, Acolytes *can* take a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport (as well as Battle Sister Rhinos and Grey Knight Land Raiders). Games Workshop just borked their own FAQ as far as I can tell :s

The Canoness still has the Eviscerator and Inferno Pistols as a wargear option on her dataslate for those who were worried.

The Exorcist Missile Launcher is specifically ruled as a Turret Mounted weapon with 360-degree arc of sight.

Condemnor Boltguns and Immolators have the modified FAQ rulings (ie Condemnor Boltguns only need to hit a unit with a Psyker in it to cause Perils, and Immolators have a Fire Point).

Warlord Traits/Relics are unchanged for both Sororitas and Inquisition

Grey Knights Formation (Demonhunter Strike Force) is 1 Troop, 1 Fast Attack, 1 optional Heavy Support and all units can start making Deep Strike reserve rolls from turn 1 as well as Running and Shooting the turn they Deep Strike. Basically its a slightly different Nemesis Strike Force

Acolytes are 3-9 Acolytes with same statline and upgrade options as before (though Carapace and Power Armour got cut in cost by half). Additionally, any Acolyte can be upgraded to a Mystic with the same No Deep Strike Scatter rule as before. The unit can take Chimeras, Soroitas Rhinos, Land Raiders of all 3 types and Valkyries as Dedicated Transports.

Demonhosts are a unit of 1 - and now have the actual Demon rule too! - but are otherwise unchanged.

Jokearo are a unit of 1, and are unchanged.

Psychotroke and Rad Grenades are unchanged.

Edit: So after looking through the Adepta Sororitas and Inquisition lists, here are the changes I can see from the e-dexs. If I didn't mention it, it didn't change as far as I can see.

Adepta Sororitas:
St Celestine removed

Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave removed (ie the mixed Arco-flagellent/Crusader/Death Cult Assassin unit)

Sororitas Command Squad moved to the Elites section

New unit: Arco-flagellants (Elite). 3 Arco-Flagellants for 30pts, can buy up to 7 more. Rhino or Immolator as DT.

New unit: Crusaders (Elite). 2 Crusaders for 30pts, can buy up to 8 more. Rhino or Immolator as DT

New unit: Death Cult Assassins (Elite). 2 DCA's for 30pts, can buy up to 8 more. Rhino or immolator.

New detachment: Ministorum Delegation. 1 HQ (must be a Ministorum Priest) and 1 optional Elite, all units in the detachment gain Shield of Faith.

New detachment: Vestal Task Force. 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite, optional 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 2 Elites, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support. Once per game all units can re-roll saving throws of 1 until the end of the turn. Warlord can re-roll Walord Trait if Primary Detachment.

New formation: Ecclisarchy Battle Conclave. 1 Ministorum Priest or Uriah Jacobus. 3-10 units in any combination of Arco-flagellants, Crusaders or Death Cult Assassins. All models in the Formation form a single unit, and all models get the Shield of Faith rule.

Immolator: Gained a Fire Point on the top hatch (as per the draft FAQ).

Condemnor Boltgun: Only requires you to hit an enemy unit with a Psyker to cause Perils, rather than having to cause an Unsaved Wound (as per the draft FAQ)

Acts of Faith: They all now last until the End of the Turn, rather than the End of the Phase. This means some slight buffs, eg Battle Sister Squads can now carry their Preferred Enemy Act of Faith from the Shooting Phase into the Assault Phase of the same turn.

Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher clarified to be a turret mounted weapon with a 360-degree arc of sight.

New Tactical Objectives:
* Slay the Heretic: Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if you killed any enemy characters during the turn

* Armour of Contempt: The next time one of your Adepta Sororitas makes a successful Shield of Faith save or Deny the Witch roll, immediately score 1 VP.

* Reclaim Lost Relic: Roll a D6 - Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if you control the objective that corresponds to the D6 result.

* Trust in the Emperor: Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if a unit with the Act of Faith rule destroys an enemy unit. If the unit was under the effects of an Act of Faith, score D3 VPs instead.

* The Blood of Martyrs: Next time one of your Adepta Sororitas characters is slain, score 1 VP. If the model as the Martyrdom rule, score D3 VPs instead.

* A Leap of Faith: Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if you pass at least 1 Act of Faith test during the turn. If you pass 3, score D3 VPs instead. If you pass 6 or more, score D3+3 VPs instead.

Inquisition:
Inquisitors - lost the cheaper power weapon, power fist and plasma pistol options which are now standard price (with the exception of the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, who can still take 10pt Power Swords but still can't take Power Fists or other Power Weapons).

Inquisitors - Power Armour upgrade reduced to 3pts from 8pts

Inquisitors - lost Servo Skulls

Inquisitors - can now only take the Inquisitorial Relic associated with their Ordos.

Inquisitors - Psyk-Out grenade rules changed to match the updated Grey Knight rules

Ordo Malleus Inquisitors - Can generate from Demonology (Malefic). Does not extend to Coteaz.... (heresy).

Inquisitor Coteaz - Gained the Lord of Formosa special rule. All units in the same detachment as Coteaz are Objective Secured.

Dedicated Transports - Lost Razorbacks and Rhinos, but gained Sororitas Rhinos. Chimeras are still only 55pts, but lost the 5 Fire Points (now work the same as Codex: Astra Militarum ie 2 Fire Points and the Lasgun Arrays rule). Lost the ability to give Inquisitorial Vehicle Upgrades to anything but the Chimera - this means no more Psybolt Land Raider Crusaders. This is because Land Raiders, Sororitas Rhinos and Valkyries come from the Grey Knight, Adepta Sororitas and Aeronautica Imperalis lists respectively, and can only take the Vehicle Upgrades listed in those sections.

Inquisitorial Henchman Warband unit removed.

Psykers Removed (ie no longer an option as a Henchman. Effectively moved to the Adepta Astra Telepathica section, where you can grab Primaris Psykers, Astropaths and Wyrdvane Psykers). Astropaths btw are 25pts for ML1 (Divination and Telepathy), same statline as the Astra Militarum Regimental Advisor. However you can upgrade this one to ML2 for 25pts, give him a Refractor Field for 10pts and also gets a rule where if he manifests a Psychic Power you can re-roll Reserve Rolls in your next turn. Basically a mini Primaris Psyker

Servitors Removed (moved to the Cult Mechanicus section of the book. Plasma Cannon option increased to 15pts from 10pts)

New Unit: Acolytes (Elite). 3 Acolytes for 12pts and can buy up to 9 more for 4pts/model. Same statline and wargear options as previous codex, however the cost of Carapace/Power armour upgrades are cut in half (2 and 5pts respectively). Any Acolyte can be upgraded to a Mystic for 6pts, and gain the same Psychic Beacon rule. Can take Chimeras, Sororitas Rhinos, all 3 Land Raider types or Valkyries as transports.

New Unit: Demonhost (Elite). 1 Demonhost for 10pts. Gains the Demon rule, otherwise identical to previous codex.

New Unit: Jokaero Weaponsmith (Elite). 1 Jokareo Weaponsmith for 35pts. Identical to previous codex.

New Unit: Chimera (Heavy Support). Also lost the 5 fire points, and now works the same as the Astra Militarum one.

New Detachment: Inquisitorial Representative. 1 HQ, optional 3 Elites. One Inquisitor from the formation (including Unique models) can generate a Warlord Trait even if they are not the Warlord.

New Formation: Inquisitorial Henchman Warband. 1 Inquisitor (including Unique models), 1 Unit of Acolytes, 0-1 Ministorum Priests, 0-1 Crusaders, 0-6 Demonhosts, 0-1 Arco-flagellents, 0-1 Death Cult Assassins, 0-1 Tech-Priest Enginseer, 0-6 Jokearo Weaponsmiths, 0-1 Astropaths. All units except the Inquisitor must form a single Unit. Inquisitor can generate a Warlord Trait even if they are not the Warlord. Can include either a Battle Sister Squad, Grey Knight Terminator Squad or Deathwatch Veteran squad in the formation as per your Inquisitors Ordo.

Edit: Pics of the rules for Cannoness Veyridian included with her model. Interesting wording around her rules being found in the Adepta Sororitas codex or the Imperial Agents codex, suggesting that sisters are getting a new book sometime soon.


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dFImU8bcwFY/WFF2rF6D6SI/AAAAAAABKjw/8L5j9EtaTGsO0YH77ONOPv-10GitBgQTwCLcB/s1600/ded16164cbc8af53e35cb8a802e29292_5394.jpg

[Blackhawk748]

Glad to see she has her own rules, now if GW would just get to making more models of her!

[Cheesegear]

All the armies in the book are their own Factions, with all the implications that carries. The Valkyrie in particular is listed as-is from the Astra Militarum codex (with Faction: Aeronautica Imperialis instead). BUT, Acolytes *can* take a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport (as well as Battle Sister Rhinos and Grey Knight Land Raiders). Games Workshop just borked their own FAQ as far as I can tell :s

*Le Sigh* Someone hasn't read the rulebook. Dedicated Transports get their own rule, even regarding Factions.

"...but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for." - Page 120.

Emphasis mine.
The thing is, this has never come up before because there aren't any units in the game that can take a Dedicated Transport outside their Faction. Basically, you have to know a super-obscure rule that has literally never come up until right now.


Warlord Traits are unchanged for both Sororitas and Inquisition

That's kind of disappointing.


Slay the Heretic: Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if you killed any enemy characters during the turn
Armour of Contempt: The next time one of your Adepta Sororitas makes a successful Shield of Faith save or Deny the Witch roll, immediately score 1 VP.
Reclaim Lost Relic: Roll a D6 - Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if you control the objective that corresponds to the D6 result.
Trust in the Emperor: Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if a unit with the Act of Faith rule destroys an enemy unit. If the unit was under the effects of an Act of Faith, score D3 VPs instead.
The Blood of Martyrs: Next time one of your Adepta Sororitas characters is slain, score 1 VP. If the model as the Martyrdom rule, score D3 VPs instead.
A Leap of Faith: Score 1 VP at the end of your turn if you pass at least 1 Act of Faith test during the turn. If you pass 3, score D3 VPs instead. If you pass 6 or more, score D3+3 VPs instead.

Assassinate is already a card in the deck. Do it again.
Do what you're doing anyway. Free point. Unfortunately, it will most likely happen in your opponent's turn, not yours.
Another SecObX card. Do it again.
Do what you're doing anyway. Free point.
"Get your own units killed." I hate these Objectives, and they are pointless and bad.
Do what you're doing anyway. Free point.

Aside from 'Get your own unit killed.', every TacOb is nice to have. Nothing requires you to build your army differently.


Inquisitor Coteaz - Gained the Lord of Formosa special rule. All units in the same detachment as Coteaz are Objective Secured.

This rule - or anything similar to it - is the only thing I wanted out of a new Inquisition Codex. I'm okay with losing Servo-Skulls as long as this rule is a thing. Yes, it only affects Coteaz's Detachment, but that's fine. I'm still unclear if Crusaders can be taken in an Inquisitorial Detachment, but they can be taken in the big one. Still, I'm hoping for ~30 Objective Secured Crusaders, and if that's real, then I'm buying 1-3 boxes of Age of Sigmar Bleakswords ($45AUD for x10) on Day 1.

[bluntpencil]

The bonus Warlord traits look nasty, too.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm writing up a guide to Traitor's Hate and the Traitor Legion formations, but I have a question, and I was wondering if someone could answer it for me. It's about the Tactical Objectives

The wording in Traitor Legion is:

If your warlord is from an X detachment, you may replace the Capture And Control Tactical Objectives (numbers 11-16) described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules with the Tactical Objectives on this page.

That "may" means they're optional. Easy enough, right?

The wording in Traitor's Hate is:

If your Warlord has the Chaos Space Marines Faction, these Tactical Objectives replace the Capture And Control Tactical Objectives (numbers 11-16) described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

Not optional. Remember that all Traitor Legions detatchments keep the Chaos Space Marines Faction, and we have a conundrum.

If I'm running a Legion, can I choose between all three possible sets of objectives? What if I don't have Traitor's Hate? Does a strict reading of the RAW break this, by saying that the TH objectives replace the CaC objectives, so I can't then optionally replace them. When do I choose which list?

[Cheesegear]

If I'm running a Legion, can I choose between all three possible sets of objectives? What if I don't have Traitor's Hate? Does a strict reading of the RAW break this, by saying that the TH objectives replace the CaC objectives, so I can't then optionally replace them. When do I choose which list?

Traitor's Hate is not optional. You must use those Objectives if you have TH and your Warlord is from a Detachment found in that book.
If you're Traitor Legions for a Black Crusade Detachment (Hate), I would let you choose between Hate Objectives and your Legion's. If you don't use TL, then Traitor's Hate asserts its non-optional self, and you default to Traitor's Hate. (e.g; Typhus must generate his Powers from Nurgle | He may also generate Powers from [other Disciplines].)
If you have Legions but not Hate, then Legions is optional.

[LeSwordfish]

Traitor's Hate is not optional. You must use those Objectives if you have TH and your Warlord is from a Detachment found in that book.
If you're Traitor Legions for a Black Crusade Detachment (Hate), I would let you choose between Hate Objectives and your Legion's. If you don't use TL, then Traitor's Hate asserts its non-optional self, and you default to Traitor's Hate. (e.g; Typhus must generate his Powers from Nurgle | He may also generate Powers from [other Disciplines].)
If you have Legions but not Hate, then Legions is optional.

Thank you! This is all relevant since some legions - Black Legion especially - get a lot more out of the Black Crusade than their own MFD. Free Boon rolls and an expansion of VotLW is hard to top, and Black Legion in particular are stuck with their own underwhelming formations instead of the good ones everyone else gets.

[hamishspence]

Cyclopia Cabal is Black Legion only.

[LeSwordfish]

Yeah - but it's a Command choice, so you can take it outside a MFD and not be losing anything. None of the others are any good. The Black Legion basic warband loses Objective Secured, which means you're better off taking just about anything else and allying a Cabal in.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah - but it's a Command choice, so you can take it outside a MFD and not be losing anything. None of the others are any good. The Black Legion basic warband loses Objective Secured, which means you're better off taking just about anything else and allying a Cabal in.

Do Legions lose all their bonuses when they Battle Bro up together? Pretty sure they don't. Unlike Space Marines losing what makes them cool every time they brofist.
...Space Marines are underpowered. :smalltongue:

[Drasius]

Do Legions lose all their bonuses when they Battle Bro up together? Pretty sure they don't. Unlike Space Marines losing what makes them cool every time they brofist.
...Space Marines are underpowered. :smalltongue:

Don't make me hurt you.

Besides, everyone plays white scars, woofs and/or DAngles, so your rule doesn't matter. Besides, I thought that only affected Ultras after angels of death came out?

[Ricky S]

I know Im late to the party but any suggestions for dealing with tau riptides and storm surges?

My friend recently bought 3x Riptides, 2x storm surges and a ghostkeel. He is intending to run them in a formation where he can fire twice per either riptide or storm surge (not clear which nor clear on the formation).

Dealing with one is easy but I have only so much grav. Available armies to combat them include space marines, blood angels, guard and death watch.

[Cheesegear]

Besides, everyone plays white scars, woofs and/or DAngles, so your rule doesn't matter.

*Looks at Imperial Fists list*, *Looks at mates' Raven Guard and Ultramarines lists*
Damn. I have some news to break to my friends. I think we're having fun wrong. :smalleek:


Besides, I thought that only affected Ultras after angels of death came out?

...and Black Templars!

[Turalisj]

I know Im late to the party but any suggestions for dealing with tau riptides and storm surges?

My friend recently bought 3x Riptides, 2x storm surges and a ghostkeel. He is intending to run them in a formation where he can fire twice per either riptide or storm surge (not clear which nor clear on the formation).

Dealing with one is easy but I have only so much grav. Available armies to combat them include space marines, blood angels, guard and death watch.

A stormsurge that's been anchored is IK'd when tank shocked, and riptides can't do any shooting in assault.

[Cheesegear]

Dealing with one is easy but I have only so much grav.

You need more. It's just what you need.

Three Riptides, two Stormsurges, and a Ghostkeel. Two out of three of those things are the best units in the Tau book. Your friend has significantly upped his game, and you kind of need to do the same if you want a chance. That does, actually mean; More Grav.


Available armies to combat them include space marines, blood angels, guard and death watch.

The man, the myth, the legend;
Terminator Captain; Cataphractii, Auspex - 125 Points

The thing about Terminator Captains (which are different to Captains in Terminator Armour, go figure), is that they don't have access to Storm Shields (since it's nominally for 30K), but they do have access to Chapter Relics. So, if he's your Warlord, strap on a Shield Eternal.

From there you have one main option;
Devastators (x5); x4 Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps + Drop Pod - 315 Points

If you're thinking that that's a lot of points for five models...Well, it is! Luckily, that also happens to be the amount (minus the Cataphractii Captain) that Eldar are paying for their Wraithknights. This unit will basically delete from the board, any unit you ask it to. If you have a Librarian behind you casting Prescience or Devastator Doctrine (which frees your Librarian to cast Ignores Cover, instead).

If you're thinking that 315 Points is too expensive (because for a lot of people it is, especially 'cause it's overkill on pretty much anything that isn't a Wraithknight...Or Stormsurge, I guess) then you can always run with;

Command Squad; x5 Grav-Guns + Drop Pod - 200 Points

You can drop a Grav for an Apothecary, if the Cataphractii is your Warlord. This set up loses you 5 Grav shots for 115 Points. It's actually not a terrible idea, and certainly something to look at when you're strapped for points. The Devastatrs are Just Better, as when they do the thing, they go to town with their Grav-Amps on. But, at the end of the day, the only reason to run a Command Squad over Devastators, is because sometimes you really can't afford 300+ Points for five Marine models. Anyway, let's leave the Cataphractii Captain behind.

Bikes (x3); x2 Grav-Guns, Combi-Grav - 103 Points

This is a fun ride (pun totally intended). If you're running Kor'sarro, these guys will be Troops and have Scout. Scout on non-Infantry is for winners. Everyone knows. At the end of the day, these guys are really solid and can get the job done... So long as you have more than one unit of them. Probably the biggest factor on Bikes is that you don't need to spend an extra 175+ Points on a Cataphractii Captain. Though, as has been mentioned, it's not like Cataphractii's are even bad.

Drop Pod - 35 Points
Centurion Devastators (x3); Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps, Omniscope - 250 Points

Same amount of shots as the Command Squad, except with T5, 2+ Armour, Night Vision, Split Fire and re-rolls To Wound. While they don't need a Cataphractii to babysit them, they often come with a Librarian in the empty 'Pod seat. Usually to roll on Div; Re-rolls To Hit and To Wound is neat. A 4++ on Centurions is real good. Rending Hurricane Bolters makes everyone cry. And, as always; Ignores Cover is one of the best Powers in the game.

Snipers & Sternguard will work on Riptides and Ghostkeels, but they wont work on Stormsurges. Poison/Sniper just doesn't work like that against Gargantuans. Since that's not going to work, that brings us to Deathwatch; Specfically, Frag Cannons. 2-shot Lascannons solve most problems when you take enough of them. For whatever reason GW were thinking, Frag Cannons cost less points than Grav-Cannons. Who even knows why?

So, Grav. That's it. It's the best. Whatever Grav doesn't work against, there's Frag Cannons.

Welcome to Space Marines.

[LeSwordfish]

Do Legions lose all their bonuses when they Battle Bro up together? Pretty sure they don't. Unlike Space Marines losing what makes them cool every time they brofist.
...Space Marines are underpowered. :smalltongue:

If it says that anywhere, I can't see it, although maybe there's a "Unit Entirely Composed Of" somewhere that i'm missing.

[Requizen]

If it says that anywhere, I can't see it, although maybe there's a "Unit Entirely Composed Of" somewhere that i'm missing.

The Butcherhorde 2d6" pregame move is "Unit Entirely Comprised Of", and so are some of the other Detachment bonuses. But you don't lose Legion "Tactics" by grouping up, though I would say there's nothing as abusive as like H&R for making units.

I take that back, you can do stupid things with Artifacts, but not their version of Tactics particularly. For instance, make a fast Deathstar (Hounds/Spawn/Bikes), take the Khorne Talisman of Burning Blood (Add 3" to all Move, Run, and Charge), take the Alpha Legion Mindveil (instead of moving, you can go 3d6" in any direction in the Move phase, even out of combat). Boom, a 15" move Deathstar with reliable charges and what is Hit and Run but better since you don't need an Intiative test. I'm not 100% on a build yet, but I have a strong inkling that you will see something similar to this.

[lord_khaine]

So, Grav. That's it. It's the best. Whatever Grav doesn't work against, there's Frag Cannons.

Except of course for the curious combo of chaos sorcerers and pet spawns you told us about a little while ago :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

I'm going to polish off and upload the Traitor Legions guide tomorrow, but I thought I should mention this now: I know we have people far far more experienced than me with Thousand Sons and Khorne. If they want to step in and take over those two legions, feel free.

[Cheesegear]

Except of course for the curious combo of chaos sorcerers and pet spawns you told us about a little while ago :smalltongue:

Okay, Deathwatch Frag Cannons will work, but regular ones (i.e; On Blood Angels) wont.

[hamishspence]

I'm going to polish off and upload the Traitor Legions guide tomorrow, but I thought I should mention this now: I know we have people far far more experienced than me with Thousand Sons and Khorne. If they want to step in and take over those two legions, feel free.

Presumably Cheesegear's original CSM guide might be a starting point.

I would guess that there always needs to be some Objective Secured units in the army - so the question might be - which of the special Decurion-style detachments work best as the primary part of the army - and which works best with the bare minimum of points spent, with most of the points being spent on an allied Combined Arms Detachment instead.

[Ricky S]

A stormsurge that's been anchored is IK'd when tank shocked, and riptides can't do any shooting in assault.

I could try that but dont they still get to stand and shoot against it? I'd say a storm surge would have a pretty good chance of stopping it before it crunches it. He could also just not anchor and still have plenty of shooting. Getting to assault is always hard, I could try a BA jump pack list but that would be risky. Lots would die before combat.


You need more. It's just what you need.

Three Riptides, two Stormsurges, and a Ghostkeel. Two out of three of those things are the best units in the Tau book. Your friend has significantly upped his game, and you kind of need to do the same if you want a chance. That does, actually mean; More Grav.

The man, the myth, the legend;
Terminator Captain; Cataphractii, Auspex - 125 Points

The thing about Terminator Captains (which are different to Captains in Terminator Armour, go figure), is that they don't have access to Storm Shields (since it's nominally for 30K), but they do have access to Chapter Relics. So, if he's your Warlord, strap on a Shield Eternal.

From there you have one main option;
Devastators (x5); x4 Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps + Drop Pod - 315 Points

Command Squad; x5 Grav-Guns + Drop Pod - 200 Points

Bikes (x3); x2 Grav-Guns, Combi-Grav - 103 Points

Drop Pod - 35 Points
Centurion Devastators (x3); Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps, Omniscope - 250 Points

Snipers & Sternguard will work on Riptides and Ghostkeels, but they wont work on Stormsurges. Poison/Sniper just doesn't work like that against Gargantuans. Since that's not going to work, that brings us to Deathwatch; Specfically, Frag Cannons. 2-shot Lascannons solve most problems when you take enough of them. For whatever reason GW were thinking, Frag Cannons cost less points than Grav-Cannons. Who even knows why?

So, Grav. That's it. It's the best. Whatever Grav doesn't work against, there's Frag Cannons.

Welcome to Space Marines.

Well I have a tactical squad with grav, combi grav, a tactical squad with melta, combi melta and a tactical with plasma, combi plasma, they will have to do as my core until I get a few more grav/combi grav. Is there any point in having the extra 5 guys? Bolters wont do too much? I thought centurions couldnt take a drop pod as a dedicated transport? I have 3 grav centurions anyway. So they'll go in with their mandatory librarian. I will chuck in a unit of frag cannon death watch as well as allies. I might have to grab a grav dev squad for christmas now. I have drop pods for everything so thats not a problem.

I think after looking at what I have I have a quite a good chance. Its just daunting looking at such a heavily armoured tau army. Is interceptor a big problem? He says he will take it on all the riptides.

[Renegade Paladin]

Centurions can't take a drop pod, but you can buy a drop pod in a Fast Attack slot and put them in it.

[Cheesegear]

which of the special Decurion-style detachments work best as the primary part of the army - and which works best with the bare minimum of points spent, with most of the points being spent on an allied Combined Arms Detachment instead.

DeathGuardandAlphaLegion.

The Core choice in nearly all of the Legion MFDs is a Warband. Which Legions have the best Warband (i.e; Best mandatory choice)?

[Drasius]

You can also just nominate the Black Crusade warband to be a [insert traitor legion of your choice] warband and gain obsec on everything that way while still getting most of the legion benefits. But yeah, if you want competative, you're playing death guard or alpha legion basically, which means Heavy Nurgle and/or heavy cultists which really isn't much different from before since the only "competative" (and I use the word lightly) options were all nurgle all the time with min cultists because they were the cheapest option.

As for thousand sons, I'll make some comments once you've got it written up, but basically: thousand sons (the unit, ie rubricae) are crap with virtually no redeeming features unless one of your sorcs rolls ignores cover (either on div or geomortis), then they're less bad, but seeing as unmarked sorcerors are still better in every way than Tz marked ones, why bother? Everyone is excited about casting force giving them all a +1 invo (up to a 3+ max), but they forget that the natural enemy of 23ppm MEQ's with a 3++ are bolters and other high volume ap<3 guns, not things like battle cannons or plasma guns, so now you're basically spending warp charge for nothing. The only place it's passable is on terminators, who are more resistant than the rubrics to small arms. The only time the invo buff would matter is in their detatchment if you max them out to get rr1's, then their main weakness of ap- weapons is mitigated. Speaking of their detatchments, they're basically unplayable under 2k due to the weak bonii they give unless you max out the formations while the min number of units is still too high for the bonus you get. Magnus can be OK if you build a list around him, but the easy and obvious comparison is either fateweaver and belakor for the same points or fateweaver and a LoC in the omnicient oracles formation for less points. Not to mention that building a list around him basically involves the rest of the list being daemons to get the warp charge you need to power him. Tzaangors are a bit of a non starter because when was the last time you saw anyone take Tzeentch marked cultists and these are basically the same thing, except they don't come back on a 4+ like lost and the damned cultists would. TSons relics are all decent, especially the astral grimoure, which is about the only real use for them as a plug in allied detatchment.

As terrible as they all are though, they're some of the prettiest models in all of GW's range, so at least they'll look nice on the shelf.

[Cheesegear]

But yeah, if you want competative, you're playing death guard or alpha legion basically, which means Heavy Nurgle and/or heavy cultists which really isn't much different from before since the only "competative" (and I use the word lightly) options were all nurgle all the time with min cultists because they were the cheapest option.

I'm going to go ahead and rate Alpha Legion Warbands as legit, especially in Rhinos. Your Chaos Space Marines and Chosen are no longer taxes, and it's basically like running a Battle Demi-Company in Rhinos/Razorbacks, but instead of Kor'sarro Scout, you get Infiltrate. If you can roll #3 on Strategic, or whatever the AL Warlord Trait is, the rest of your Warband can do it, too. All ObSec.

In a Black Crusade Detachment, Alpha Legion Cultists can Infiltrate and respawn and also be Core. But the other Core choice is Infiltrate and ObSec, of which I will rate extremely high.

An Alpha Legion Warband isn't Nurgle or Cultists, and it's still really good. You can't explain that.


but seeing as unmarked sorcerors are still better in every way than Tz marked ones, why bother?

Especially now that Cyclopian Cabal can be found outside the Black Legion book, a book that nobody wanted just to get their hands on one Formation. Now the Formation is found in a book you already own, so you have no excuse not to have it.

[Drasius]

An Alpha Legion Warband isn't Nurgle or Cultists, and it's still really good. You can't explain that.

I was saying that pre-traitor legions it was nurgle and cultists as the only viable competative options, not after.


Especially now that Cyclopian Cabal can be found outside the Black Legion book, a book that nobody wanted just to get their hands on one Formation. Now the Formation is found in a book you already own, so you have no excuse not to have it.

Unless you were silly and bought Wrath of Magnus instead, but then you've got the daemon formations which have a couple of good bits in them. I'm still trying to figure out if I can make my Sons viable if I ally in some of the daemon formations from WoM to figure out if I actually need to buy WoM instead of just needing traitor legions like I have now. So far I'm not seeing anything I like that wouldn't be better with pure daemons, despite how great the heralds arachic and omniscient oracles is. People are raving over the lorestealer host and heralds arachic in a pandemoniad as the answer to all the sons problems for 381 points for 12 warp charge, but I'm not sure a sons army that isn't terrible has 381 points to spare for it. 390 points gets me 9 WC and 3 unmarked sorcs with spell familiars to use them from a wide range of BRB tables (unlike the assortment of Tz daemons) as well as being hidden in existing CSM squads (also unlike the assortment of Tz daemons).

[Bobby Baratheon]

After reviewing your suggestions and doing some tinkering, here is my anti-Word Bearers (which got confirmed) list. I know for a fact the guy doesn't have many daemon models, so unless he's proxying or borrowing the summoning shouldn't be too bad.


Lion's Blade Strike Force

Demi-Company
155 - Company Master Absalom (W) w/ combi-plasma, artificer armor, relic blade, Shroud of Heroes

130 - Tactical Squad (x5) w/ meltagun, combi-melta, meltabombs, and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) w/ meltagun, combi-melta, meltabombs, and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) w/ meltagun, combi-melta, meltabombs, and Drop Pod

180 - Assault Squad (x5) w/ x2 flamers, Power Weapon, combi-grav, Razorback (las/plas)

185 - Devastator Squad (x5) w/ x2 Grav Cannons, Rhino

Ravenwing Attack Squadron
55 - Landspeeder (x1) w/ x2 heavy bolters
185 - Ravenwing Bike Squadron (x3) w/ Plasmaguns x2, meltabombs, Attack Bike w/ multimelta

Deathwing Redemption Force
115 - Librarian Malachias w/ Terminator Armor, ML2

225 - Deathwing Terminators (x5) w/ Chainfist, Assault Cannon
230 - Deathwing Terminators (x5) w/ TH/SS (x3), Lightning Claws (x2)

Dark Angels CAD
65 - Librarian Gideon (ML1)
78 - Scouts (x5) w/ combi-grav, heavy bolter w/ hellfire shells
78 - Scouts (x5) w/ combi-grav, heavy bolter w/ hellfire shells
78 - Scouts (x5) w/ combi-grav, heavy bolter w/ hellfire shells

Total: 1999

Deployment Strategy: Scouts infiltrate as close as possible, Deathwing decides to come in on turn two, Ravenwing Attack Squadron scouts forward.

Turn 1 Strategy: Drop pods come down, Ravenwing goes forward, scouts contribute to turn one attack by annoying closest enemies and punching above their weight/serving as a distraction. If they get ignored, well hey they have Objective Secured.

Turn 2 Strategy: Deathwing come in within 12" of Ravenwing squad, and proceed to annihilate some chumps. Ravenwing goes off to mulch some infantry or pop some tanks or whatever tickles their fancy. Other Drop Pod comes down, either on vehicle or on backfield objective. Devastators go camp an objective and sit in their Rhino.

Notes: The ML1 librarian probably deploys with the Devs to give them prescience, or wherever else he might be needed. ML2 librarian goes with the knock-off DW knights, either rolling on Librarius, Biomancy or Fulmination. Fulmination hoping to get the switcheroo power, Librarius/Biomancy hoping for the buffs. There's lots of Objective secured in this list. I'm kind of expecting him to go with a mechanized list of CSM in Rhinos with some psyker back up and a bunch of cultists (hence the double flamers and hell fire shells). I wanted to squeeze in some Deathwing Knights, but there just weren't points for it unless I cut out the Ravenwing. I guess I could ditch the scout CAD, but I'm interested to see how that works in practice.

This is IMO a lot better than the other list I had. Thoughts?

EDIT: I suppose I could just swap out the Redemption force for the Deathwing Strike Force, but I'd miss out on Preferred Enemy (CSM) and Supreme Fire Discipline.

[LeSwordfish]

A Guide To Treachery
Guides to Traitor Legions and Traitor's Hate

Some General Notes on Legions
You can make any detatchment or formation a Legion formation. If you’re in a Legion, you’ll have restrictions on what Marked units you can have. This will really hurt some units, who really want either Marks or Icons. You also get Veterans Of The Long War for free on everything that will take it, which is neat. You also get extra special bonuses on everything with VotLW - remember that this includes Daemon Princes and all named HQs, but not Spawn, Cultists, or Vehicles.

Marked Psykers can roll all powers on their god’s tables. There’s a few good’uns hidden in there - particularly on the Nurgle table, and rolling all powers gets you a better shot at them. As usual, plan ahead and have some idea of what you want to do.

Many legions move things to Troops. Remember that this happens even if you’re using Formations - you no longer give up VPs for Big Guns Never Tire or Purge, and some things (like Deathwatch) will work differently for you.

You can choose between the Legion tactical objectives, and the generic CSM ones in Traitor's Hate. You can't choose to go back to the standard ones.

Stuff with a * is in Traitor's Hate. If all you want is this stuff, you don't need the Legion book.

Generic Things For Everyone
Chaos Warband*
Pretty much a CSM Demi-Company. It’s a whole bunch of stuff with Objective Secured, what else do you need to know? Well, lots actually. It’s a Core choice for just about all the forthcoming Legions, so knowing how to do it cheaply is important.

Chaos Lord - 65
Chaos Chosen - 90
Chaos Space Marines - 75
Chaos Space Marines - 75
Chaos Bikers - 70
Havocs - 75

Thats a total of 450 points, and you get five MSU Objective Secured units, with the only real “tax” being the chosen - pay twenty more points and take Suicide Terminators. Not bad! You can probably make that contribute to your army properly for less than 600 points total, and then you get to take whatever else interesting that’s actually thematic for your Legion. Unless you’re going all-out on something unusual like Raptors, or you really really want a Sorceror instead of a Lord (though you can take one as well) this should be your standard force instead of a CAD. Your non-troops (including Transports like Land Raiders) gain Objective Secured, and you get double rolls on the boon table. This makes it easy to avoid the few detrimental boons, and max out on useful bonuses.

If you’re taking this, please for god’s sake find 30-odd points for a single Spawn - that’s enough to turn this into any of the Legion Detachments or the Black Crusade, and you get a whole extra set of special rules. Please. Don’t make me beg you. Thirty points.

The Lost And The Damned*
You want cultists? We got cultists! You can throw a poop-ton of cheap bodies at the board, and they come back from Outflank when they die. However, they’re not Objective Secured, so they lose a lot of utility and turn into meatshields, and every time they die they give up a kill point… it’s the only way to get Cultists, though, so if you want them… you don’t have much choice. Minimum cost is 305 points, so you could always take this AND a Warband.

Helforged Warpack*
You get Daemonforge twice, and assorted buffs to one thing in the Warpack, including the Character special rule, which is pretty good since then you can Challenge scary thunder hammers etc. Those aren’t bad, but the warpsmith is a hundred points of tax, and do you really want to pay that much for them. On the plus side, you were taking three or more -fiend units if you were taking any, right?

Heldrake Terror Pack*
Heldrakes are good and this is the only way to do it. The Merciless Pursuit rule is broken, as in doesn’t function at all. Debuffs to leadership are sometimes good, though: will it be useful in your meta?

Cult Of Destruction*
Pretty good! Shooting/attacking twice is very nice indeed, but hurts from being tied to a Warpsmith (and you have to be close to the warpsmith, which means no double-shot deep strikes.) You’ll want at least one maxed unit for the warpsmith to buff, so that’s a minimum of five models… if you were taking that many anyway, (and hell, they’re not bad, you might as well be) 110 points to shoot twice is actually pretty fair.

Fist Of The Gods*
It’s the only way you can get the Chaos armour, and you pay the Warpsmith Tax. Unless you really want tanks, avoid.

Raptor Talon*
Charging out of Deep Strike is fun, but will probably not actually work. You don’t have anything to make Deep Striking more reliable (save Cursed Earth for Warp Talons) and similarly nothing for reserve rolls, and if you do pull it off, your charge is Disordered! This formation is just so weedy compared to the C:SM ones that do the same thing. Negatives to leadership is neat - Fear is useless, sure, but maybe you can Sweeping Advance? Unless you really want lots of raptors, I’d suggest taking them in the Warband instead - get Objective Secured.

Terminator Annihilation Force*
Compare this to the First Company Formation and weep. You get Hatred - you have this against 50% of armies already - and can shoot a bonus time against a single unit if you Deep Strike in. I guess you could take combi-meltas, pop a transport, and then combi-bolter a unit that comes out, but you’re paying a lot of points to Alpha Strike, like, a single Chimera.

You still don’t have anything to make Deep Striking better. Again, I would just max out the terminator slots in your Warband.

Favoured Of Chaos*
Posessed are bad, and this doesnt make them better enough. Remember in most detatchments, you can take a Daemon Prince as a Command choice.

Black Crusade Detachment (Traitor’s Hate Only)
You should seriously consider taking this instead of your own Legion’s Detatchment. Free boon rolls are really that good. Can you mix and match Legions inside this detachment? So taking, say, a Death Guard Warband, and a Black Legion Raptor talon?

If you’re not dedicated to a Legion, you should really take this. Chaos just can’t keep up in a CAD without Legion rules, and it gives you the free VoTLW which is de rigeur. It's also the only Detatchment that can take Huron Blackheart.

Chaos Space Marine Tactical Objectives (Traitor’s Hate Only)
11: Destroy a unit. You can do this, right?
12: Manifest a power. Should be fairly easy. You brought Spell Familiars, right?
13: At the start of each turn, randomly roll an objective, which you have to capture. Easier than a normal one, since if it randomly picks one underneath a Warlord Titan you get to roll again next turn.
14: Make a Boon roll. If you took the Black Crusade detachment, then congratulations, enjoy your free VP. Otherwise, it’s killing characters with characters - you can do that, right? Champions Of Chaos says you have to.
15: Take an objective from your opponent. Once again… you were going to do this anyway, right?
16: Make a boon roll on your Warlord, which means getting your Warlord into challenges. Go bully some guard sargeant or something. The rest is random, though re-rolls and the Chaos Warband can help you get the good stuff. Is an extra 3 VP worth getting your warlord turned into a Daemon Prince?

This table is great if you’re taking the Black Crusade detachment, (2/6 as “free” VPs is as good as it gets). If not, it’s still pretty decent.


Black Legion
Buckle in, folks, these guys get more than anything else.

Most notable thing about Black Legion is you can take Marked units if you want. The usual restrictions on making things troops applies, so you can totally take a Nurgle Lord and all of your troops can be Plague Marines. You also get Terminators and Chosen as troops choices - though both are pretty expensive for what they do.

You get Hatred against everything, and super-hatred against Armies Of The Imperium. That’s not bad, if you can get into combat, but it's small potatoes compared to most of the other legions.

Warlord Traits
1: Cool, I guess.
2: Re-roll Boon rolls. You can stack this with the Warband to get effectively four choices, but you don’t really need that.
3: A single flamer? This is a joke, right?
4: It Will Not Die - Finally something worthwhile.
5: Reasonable, I guess.
6: Stubborn Aura. Not too bad, but more or less everything will be Fearless, LD10, or both.

Nothing is a stand-out. Roll elsewhere.

Artefacts
The Crucible Of Lies: I wouldn’t pay 25 points to re-roll invulnerable saves of 1, let alone 25 points AND a point of Toughness
Eye Of Night: A one-shot weapon for the cost of a whole squad? You’re taking the ****.
Hand Of Darkness: A one-attack weapon for slightly less than the cost of a whole squad? You’re taking the ****.
Last Memory: Sunburst guaranteed isn’t bad, a bonus Mastery Level isn’t bad, and you can make Sunburst better for more Warp Charge. Neato.
Skull Of Kern’Gar: Eternal Warrior! Yes. Best. Remember Black Legion can Mark things, so you can get the coveted 3++/Eternal Warrior combo.
Spineshiver Blade: A Powersword/Mark Of Slaanesh/Daemon weapon. Pretty good if you have something else for AP2.

Chosen Of Abaddon
One-four squads of Terminators/Chosen and an equal number of Lords/Sorcerors to lead them. You then get Fearless for all those squads (which the Lords already give), and what is basically a free Gift for each lord/sorceror. That’s… not much. That’s almost not anything, really. If you’re taking four squads of terminators or chosen they should be objective secured, if you’re taking four sorcerors they should be in a cabal, and if you’re taking four lords you’re an idiot.

Bringers Of Despair
One squad of terminators and Abaddon. Terminators get +1WS and BS (okay, I guess) and Abaddon can re-roll one Look Out Sir per phase. When the opportunity cost is that these guys could be Objective Secured… Look, these are formations from an old book, okay? Chaos Didnt Get Nice Things.

The Hounds Of Abaddon
A lord, Beserkers, marines, and Fast units. Everything has to be Mark Of Khorne for free, and you get one turn Run-Charge and bonus strength on a long charge. It’s not bad at all, but World Eaters are definitely better (Furious Charge as standard) and Khorne Daemonkin are probably better too.

Daemon Engine Pack
A little better than the Helforged Warpack, but you can only take two -fiends.

Cyclopia Cabal
Tax-free sorcerors. The Best. Their bonus power is nice, but not why you’re taking them.

The Tormented
Nope, Posessed still aren’t good.

Black Legion Warband
Chaos Warband without Objective secured. Thus, a bad warband. You don’t have to take Havocs, though, so… it’s cheaper. You can also take Chosen instead of ordinary marines, so if you want to spam chosen you can. I'm not sure why you would, though.

Black Legion Speartip
It’s the only MFD that can take the Black Legion formations, but you have to take the Black Legion warband instead of the Chaos Warband. That means no Objective Secured whatsoever, which hurts. You do get to start rolling to Deep Strike from the first turn, though… so if that’s what you want to do, this is how you do it. No, you don’t get to have an All Deep Strike army, because both Core choices have ordinary CSM in. Raptor Talons can deep strike and assault on turn one, if you're rolling hot.

If you’re not really keen on first-turn deep striking (with no bonuses whatsoever, aside from one auto-pass), then the Black Crusade is just better.

Tactical Objectives
11: Destroy a unit. Well, duh. What you're doing anyway.
12: Force a unit to fail a Morale/Pinning/Fear check. There’s not that much that’s susceptible to this, and you don’t have as much ability to capitalise on it as others.
13: Remove all Independent Characters. This is going to depend on your opponent’s army very much - maybe you just need to kill the warlord, maybe you need to winkle a full Conclave out of three separate squads.
14: Roll a D6, capture that objective. Unlike some, you roll the dice only once and it stays the same for the whole game. Just do whatever you’d do to capture a normal objective.
15: This is a nice easy objective to get the good bit of, because almost everything has Veterans.
16: Manifest a power, get more points for manifesting a Conjuration or even more for Sacrifice. You should be able to get the lower end easily. Is D3+3VP worth blowing up your Sorceror? Probably, yes.

Is this easier than the generic CSM ones? Depends on your opponent’s list (how many ICs do they have? are they going to fail Leadership?) and your own powers (do you have Conjuration powers?). If you’re taking the Black Crusade, the answer is a solid No.


Black Legion have the most stuff, but actually only have a few things they want to do. If you don’t want “terminators deep striking turn one” or “terminators as troops”, you won’t get much from Black Legion. Just ally a Cyclopia Cabal into whatever else you’re doing, and run the Black Crusade.

Alpha Legion
This is more like it! You get no Marks whatsoever, which is fine. Ordinary Marines, Chosen, and Cultists get Infiltrate, which is fantastic. (Chosen are also troops). This makes Chosen pretty useful, since you can take a ton of special weapons and have them in place really easily.

Your Warlord also basically can’t be killed until your last Character is killed. Remember you generate a new trait each time. This is great because it makes Slay The Warlord nearly impossible to get, without exerting too much effort on making your Warlord unkillable. Alpha Legion are thus pretty good psykers, since you can keep all your sorcerers really cheap.

Warlord Traits
1: Infiltrate. Oh right, you need this to join one of your units of Chosen or something. This is pretty good, but actually not as great as it sounds. Did you build your warlord in the expectation of getting it? What are you actually planning on doing with Infiltrate? Being 18” away and hoping to charge turn two is not terrible, but you kind of need to build for it, and it’s random.
2: You can swap with another character at the start of your turn. It’s great for getting out of nasty combats, but actually since its the start of your turn your opponent has probably had at least one turn of doing whatever they want to you. And it’s not like you’d be losing your Warlord VP any time soon.
3: Autopass a reserve roll each turn. Fantastic, since you get loads of Outflanking.
4: Stealth. Not bad.
5: Cultists get boosted. If you’re going all-out on cultists, this is great.
6: Acute Senses and Outflank. Like #1, it’s only good if you built for it.

This table is decent. You’ve got a 2/6 chance of being able to Outflank, so you could set up to do that and pop up in someone’s backline.

Artefacts
Mindveil: Dang, this is really nice. Move 3d6 instead of moving normally. Can get you longer-range charges if you want, or can be used as better-than-Hit-and-Run. Chaos don’t have much access to Hit and Run, so be a bastard and use this for that.
Blade Of The Hydra: You can put out a hell of a lot of attacks with this, which makes Rending really good. It’s pretty good.
Viper’s Bite: Str5 AP2 boltgun. That’s pretty decent but you can probably think of something better to take.
Drakescale Plate: 2+ armor saves rule. 2+ invuln against flamers is near-completely useless, because none of the ones in the rules are AP2 to get through your armour anyway. Still, 25pts for Artificier Armor isn’t too bad.
Icon of Insurrection: Cultists get Zealot. That’s good - Cultists benefit a lot from fearless. Remember that the Dark Apostle in the Lost And The Damned is doing the same thing, and you can actually cover an awful lot of ground with Fearless auras.
Hydra’s Teeth: Blast, Ignores Cover, and Poisoned 2+ on a bolt weapon. Ignores Cover is pretty bad on a ap5 weapon. You can probably get more out of the Viper’s Bite, though hey, only you know whether you see more guardsmen or Terminators.

Insurgency Force
You have to take a Warband, and they aren’t even bad. Everything gets Shrouded during the first turn, which is legit fantastic since you Infiltrate up into cover, survive shooting with 2+/3+ cover saves, and then you’re in position to shoot - or charge, if you got the first turn. You also get a 50% chance of cultists coming back. Can you get two units if you roll well, since The Lost And The Damned has the same rule? RAW says yes, but check your local group’s interpretation.

This is a fantastic formation. You can take a trillion cultists, make them all Fearless with Dark Apostles and Artefacts, and keep bringing them in from Outflank. Just make sure you’ve got some heavy guns to deal with anything the cultists can’t distract- that can be what your Warband is for! You might want to take a Cult Of Destruction or something for Lascannons.

Remember Typhus’ “plague zombies” rule states “all cultists in the army”, and the Poxwalker Hive states “any friendly unit”. If you want, you can give all those cultist squads Fearless and Feel No Pain for a 330pt Combined Arms Detatchment. However, Slow And Purposeful will really hurt that in a maelstrom game, and if you’re going all-out on cultists you might need them to do some shooting.

Tactical Objectives
11: Capture A Building. The one time you run into an opponent with a building, this will probably be really hard.
12: Have a unit of Cultists destroyed. This will be happening a lot.
13: Destroy a unit with any of a set of special rules. This should actually be fairly easy, since these rules are pretty ubiquitous - remember that a fair few unit types always have deep strike. It’s still harder than “destroy any unit”, though.
14: Most things in your army will have Infiltrate, so this is just doing what you do anyway.
15: Capture objectives in your opponent’s deployment zone, with 1VP for one or D3 for two. This is fairly difficult, although you’ve got the tools to do it if anyone can.
16: Kill characters. Kill lots of them. One should be easy, and the rest are just gravy.

This is a good list, especially since Alpha Legion are one of the groups who really want to run their own detachment rather than the Black Crusade.


Alpha Legion rule, especially in Maelstrom. They take a bit more piloting than Death Guard, but can get more out of it.

Iron Warriors
No marks, again. Obliterators benefit a whole bunch from Marks of Nurgle or Tzeentch.

Imperial Fists hate you, and you mega-hate them. Its nice and fluffy when it comes up, and pretty powerful too - they’re much less likely to be geared for close combat than you are. You get Feel No Pain (6+) which is nice - but the real benefit is that Obliterators and Mutilators are troops choices, and they and Havocs are Tank Hunters. This is great! You probably want some cheaper, more numerous units as troops (you can get five 3+ dudes for the cost of one Obliterator), but getting Objective Secured on things is never bad.

Warlord Traits
1: Feel No Pain (4+). Cool!
2: Fearless. This is where you realise that Iron Warriors really wants you to take the underwhelming warpsmith as your Warlord.
3: You can give a piece of terrain +1 Cover Save. This is great, since you have a lot of units that just want to sit back in cover.
4: Obliterators can fire the same gun twice in a row. Rubbish
5: Counter-Attack and Split Fire when in cover. That’s pretty nice.
6: Vehicles near you have It Will Not Die. Nice, but why are you spending points on vehicles instead of Tank Hunting, Objective Secured Obliterators.

If you have a Warlord Warpsmith and Vehicles, 3/6 are good. If you have a bunch of Obliterators and Havoks in cover, a different 3/6 are good. If you have both… you’re probably playing a really big game, and this is a useful table to take. Otherwise, I wouldn’t recommend it.

Artefacts
Warpbreacher: You can give a nearby - really nearby - vehicle - Daemonic Posession. This isn’t a bad ability to hand out, since sometimes you really do need a vehicle to not be stunned or shaken for a turn. That tiny range is really restrictive, though.
Nest Of Mechaserpents: In a challenge, if you land your first two attacks, the rest have Instant Death. That’s not bad, though how many things exist that are worth Instant Death-ing that you have more than 25% chance of landing two specific attacks on?
Axe Of The Forgemaster: Armourbane, master-crafted power axe. If you’re thinking of taking a powerfist, this is actually better, though you pay for it on a Terminator. 5+2d6 is 12 on average, compared to 11 for a powerfist, and it’s not a specialist weapon, and it’s Master-crafted so those attacks are going to hit.
Fleshmetal Exoskeleton: 2+ Armor save and It Will Not Die. Pretty fantastic.
Cranium Malevolus: Every nearby vehicle, every one of your shooting phases, takes a haywire hit. This isn’t bad, but I think you should seriously consider what your warlord should do - if you’re sitting back on an objective with everything else, how often will you see tanks within 2d6”
Siegebreaker Mace: Master-crafter Power Maul, that can make a single str10 Ap1 hit instead of a normal attack. This makes the Black Legion equivalent look like a bad joke, especially since it’s cheaper. A power maul isn’t a great base, though.

Grand Company
You can take Fortifications as an auxillary slot. This is nice, since you get Fearless for sitting on them, and Stubborn otherwise. You also get to re-roll scatter on Ordnance or Barrage weapons… so, Vindicators? And your fortifications, I guess. If you want to do Fortifications - and you’re Iron Warriors, so its very thematic - this is a great detachment for it. If you don’t… re-rolling scatter on your Vindicators? How many are you taking? Would be great if you could somehow get Basilisks, but those days have passed. If you're not doing Fortifications, you can probably get more out of Objective Secured Obliterators in a CAD.

Tactical Objectives
11: Destroy a unit near your table edge. Good, nice and easy.
12: Destroy a unit controlling an Objective Marker. Again, its what you’d be doing anyway.
13: Destroy something with Obliterators. If you’re taking a bunch of them, this is pretty trivial.
14: Keep controlling an objective marker until the end of your next turn for D3VPs. Yet again, it wants you to sit back and hold your own.
15: Damage a building or fortification, or destroy for D3VPs. This isn’t too hard, but who takes buildings?
16: Destroy vehicles. You should be doing this anyway.

This is a really good table - it’s just a shame Iron Warriors fall behind in the rest of Maelstrom. They don’t have much that can move fast (are you going to Flat Out your Vindicators onto objectives) and have lots of things that want to sit still and close together.

If you’re taking Obliterators, making them troops is great. If you’re taking tanks and warpsmiths, you can get good things for them. Can you take both in one force? Probably, so long as you’re not playing 1000 points or something. Iron Warriors really want to sit back and shoot, which doesn’t work in Maelstrom. In Eternal War, though, it can totally work.

Night Lords
You get Fear, Night Vision, and Stealth, and Raptors are Troops. Raptors only get so much from Stealth, though, thanks to Dangerous Terrain tests, and already have Fear. You'll probably want some standard squads hiding at the back in cover. Stealth is also great on Bikes and Heldrakes, since they can jink whenever they want.

Remember all three of those rules are passed to squads by an Independent Character, making Night Lords pretty good allies.

You also inflict -2 to Fear tests. If anything worth assaulting wasn't immune to fear, this would be pretty nice! Ultimately, Night Lords are bullies: they'll wreck anything weaker than them, but struggle against any kind of dedicated close combat. They're not World Eaters, you have to actually pick your battles.

Warlord Traits
1: Nice
2: Not bad, but not great.
3: You probably already have this against most things. Probably re-roll.
4: Pretty good! Remember your 5+ cover (Stealth/Stormbolt Plate) is better when re-rolling than a 4+ invulnerable. Just.
5: Cool.
6: Rampage. Meh.

You know who really benefits from this table? A daemon prince: just about any is great on him. Otherwise, you'll get more from Strategic.

Artefacts
Scourging Chains: Pretty good, but you only get one per model.
Claws Of The Black Hunt: Rending is very nice on Lightning Claws, as is master-crafted. That's a lot of points, though.
Talons Of The Night Terror: I mean, if you WANT to be better at killing guardsmen...
Vox Daemonicus: Messing with enemy reserves is fun. It's also yet another source of -Leadership, so if you want to be really sure your enemy is failing their fear test, this is here. So many things ignore leadership entirely, though.
Curze's Orb: Worth ignoring in my opinion. I guess it could save you from your own Plasma Pistol?
Stormbolt Plate: YES. BEST. Artificier Armour with +1 cover save, for only twenty points. An auto-include on your warlord.

(The Stormbolt Plate goes really well with a Daemon Prince of Nurgle- Stealth, Shrouded, and an additional +1 means a 3+ cover save outside cover. If you're running Night Lords, I'd give serious consideration to making this guy your warlord.)

Murder Talon
You get the usual Warlord Trait re-roll, re-roll failed charges (which is great!), and guaranteed Night Fight. Technically you get a +1 cover during Night Fighting as well, but that just replaces two sources of Stealth.

You can take a Raptor Talon as Core! But that leaves you without any Objective Secured. In maelstrom games, raptors are speedy enough to really compete - but remember a CAD would give them Objective Secured as well. I'd frankly suggest using a CAD instead, maybe with a Talon attached for charging-from-deep-strike. Or not: you're not very good at Deep Striking anyway. Do you really want Night Fighting?

The Heldrake Terror Pack gives you yet more leadership debuffs, and heldrakes aren't even bad. You can definitely build Night Lords for massive leadership debuffs, it's just a shame that doesn't DO anything.

Tactical Objectives
11: Points for doing what you have to do. Pick some weedy sargeant and charge with your Lord.
12: If you're not constantly achieving this, what kind of Night Lord are you?
13: Completely destroy a unit with a unit that was in cover or arrived from Deep Strike reserve. Sure, you can charge with a Raptor Talon, but why not just crack a tank with a squad of Havoks in cover?
14: Destroy enemy units in the assault phase. Again, it's a bully list: easy against squishy targets, much harder against MEQ.
15: Again, Destroy units. If you can move fast enough, this shouldn't be too hard, since Maelstrom tends to have a lot of small units extending themselves onto objectives.
16: Force your opponent to fail Morale, Pinning, or Fear tests. You don't have access to much Pinning, but you should be able to bring enough negative leadership modifiers to bear to force this through, unless everything is Fearless, Stubborn, ATSKNF, etc.

This one all comes down to your and your opponents' armies. Do you think you can reliably be cracking heads? Do you think you can reliably be forcing a ton of failed Fear tests?


Night Lords want their opponents to be constantly failing leadership tests. Depending on your meta, how useful will that be?

Word Bearers

You can take Possessed as troops. *pinches forehead, sighs* Okay, well, maybe the rest is good. You can give things Marks, which is nice in some cases. You get boosts when trying to cast Conjuration powers. That’s good! You’re a little less likely to Perils yourself to death, and the best thing Chaos Space Marines can do is summon a better army… I kid, I kid. You also get Zealot when near Dark Apostles. Dark Apostles aren’t particularly good.

Ultramarines hate you, and you mega-hate them. Like the Iron Warriors but way better - lots of Space Marines are Ultramarines, and they’ll probably be using Doctrines to re-roll to hit anyway, and you can be more prepared for Close Combat than them.

Warlord Traits
1: Zealot, or get the Hatred part of Zealot upgraded to mega-hatred (as in, you keep re-rolling in later turns). You’re almost certainly Fearless or Zealot already, you probably hate a lot of armies… I mean, if it’s not a waste, then keep it.
2: +1 Mastery Level. This isn’t bad at all.
3: Choose a nearby unit, and give them one of a few Special Rules. Nice!
4: Adamantium Will and Fearless. Stop giving me Fearless! I’m probably already Fearless!
5: Modify the second dice of Boon Rolls. This is really good, especially with re-rolls or the Warband’s Pick Two rule, since you effectively pick two of six boons.
6: Immediately roll on the Boon table. Pretty good.

This is a pretty good table, especially for a sorceror. For gods sake don’t roll on it with a Lord or Apostle unless you have a re-roll, though.

Artefacts
Skull Of Monarchia: I’m not convinced that most combats last long enough to justify extending “Hatred”, but it’s cheap as chips, and Shred against Ultramarines is good.
Crown Of The Blasphemer: Get a Sigil Of Corruption with Adamantium will for five points. Pretty good.
Malefic Tome: One extra power from Malefic Daemonology. Very good, and nice and cheap.
Scripts of Erebus: Once per game, immediately generate an extra D6 power dice. This is another really good one.
Baleful Icon: Force enemies to re-roll successful charge rolls, and deny them bonus attacks. Another fantastic one?
Cursed Crozius: Ap3 Power Maul with Preferred Enemy (Imperials). You’re paying a fair bit for it, but once again its very good.

Out of left field, Word Bearers have the best artefacts in the book?

Word Bearers Grand Host
Everything gets Crusader, and you get a tweaked version of the Black Crusade where you can only give it to each character once. This is kind of just a slightly worse version of the Black Crusade detachment (how many Imperial armies do you face? Would you rather Hate them or Crusade against them), and is so still pretty good. Re-rolling on the Word Bearers Warlord Trait table could genuinely be a dealbreaker.


Tactical Objectives
11: Successfully charge with a unit with Zealot. If you’ve got lots of Zealot, this is what you want to be doing anyway.
12: Completely destroy a unit with a unit of Daemons. Well, you’re not taking posessed, so how much Summoning do you plan to do? Alternatively, remember that Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends and Maulerfiends, and Warp Talons, all have the Daemon special rule.
13: Kill a character. You have to try this.
14: D3 for a successful Conjuration: D3 points for doing what you’re trying already.
15: D3 for taking an objective from your opponent. Again, what you’re trying already.
16: Get Victory Points for rolling Boons. You can get this for free if you’re in either the Black Crusade or Grand Host. You’re very unlikely to get the higher levels, though.

If you’ve got a bunch of Zealot, and a bunch of Summoning, then sure. Otherwise Traitor’s Hate is better.

Oddly, Word Bearers have no particular need to take Dark Apostles or Possessed, their two most thematic units. Summoning on 3+ is nice if you’re going to be summoning, and you’ve got a ton of good relics to make it better. If all you want is “Warband + Something + Allied Cabal” to summon, you could do “Warband + Something + A Bunch Of Sorcerors” and not be much worse off for it.

World Eaters
So the big deal with World Eaters is: are they better than Khorne Daemonkin? I don’t pretend to be an expert on Daemonkin, but that’s the question you should keep asking.

You have to take the Mark Of Khorne on everything. That’s not great: a lot of things just don’t care about it. That means no psykers, which hurts, and because you’re not Daemonkin you don’t get anything to replace that. You can take Kharn (a big plus point over Daemonkin) and Khorne Bezerkers are troops. Played sensibly - Icon, transport - that’s not bad.

You get Fearless, Furious Charge, and Adamantium Will. Daemonkin can pay Blood Tithe points for two of those. How much Fearless do you need?

Warlord Traits
1: Rampage. Not bad.
2: Can pick +1 attack any time you’d get a Boon. This is pretty cool, especially since its a choice.
3: You can Charge a unit locked in combat during your opponent’s Charge phase, and you get all the Charge bonuses. This is pretty good - sit your warlord behind a sacrificial unit, and then if they get charged, throw out a counter-charge.
4: Re-roll all to hit and to wound in a challenge. Pretty good, since you should be in challenges all the time.
5: Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain when locked in combat. Eternal Warrior is always good, but it won’t save you from lascannons. Remember Daemonkin can pay Blood Tithe points for Feel No Pain - on everything.
6: Roll 3d6 and pick the best two for everything nearby when charging. That’s very good indeed.

Nobody could accuse Khorne of being subtle.

Artefacts
Talisman of Burning Blood: +3 to Move, Charge, and Run distances. Very good indeed, nearly an autoinclude. Take this and the Maelstrom of Gore in the Butcherhorde, and you're moving 15"+2d6+2d6 with re-rolls. That should get you a first-turn charge, even if your opponent thinks they're being sneaky hiding six inches or so behind the line.
Berserker Glaive: Two-handed, master-crafted relic blade Daemon Weapon, that gives Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die, but takes away the Independent Character special rule. Feel No Pain and IWND just aren’t good enough to justify being on your own outside a unit, but Daemon Princes have fun with it.
Brass Collar: Deny the Witch on 4+, and if you Deny, the psyker suffers Perils. This is useful psychic defense, sure - i’m not sure it’s that good (since you’ll probably only have d6 dice) but it’s better than nothing.
Gorefather: Two-handed Armourbane Power Axe that does Instant Death on sixes. You should consider taking this instead of a powerfist.
The Crimson Killer: A Plasma pistol with Soul Blaze instead of Gets Hot. Way better than a plasma pistol, but you weren’t taking one of those anyway.
Bloodfeeder: Power Axe that replaces all your attacks with 2d6 hits. That’s a whole bunch. On every roll of a One, though, you take a wound with no armour saves. Rolls of One where? On the 2d6? To hit? To wound? It’s a lot of points above a normal axe.

Lord Of Skulls
Jesus, nine hundred points for one model? It’s not worth that at all.

Trinity Of Blood
Three of them in a formation is a joke. 2700 points! You could get a Warlord titan for that.

Maelstrom of Gore
Kharne and a bunch of Beserkers. Once per game, you can attack twice in a turn, once at the start of the movement phase. You also get Fleet and +3 Charge. This is a pretty great formation if you’re just wanting to charge things all day, and a reasonably solid reason to take this instead of Daemonkin

Butcherhorde
You get to re-roll failed charge rolls on everything, which is great. You also get a 2d6” “Scout” move, but you can assault afterwards (If everything in the unit is from the same detachment). That’s also great, and means you can reliably get the charge with speedy units like bikes. With a bit of luck on your re-rolls, you might even be able to pull it off with your Maelstrom Of Gore. If you take a Maelstrom as core, you’re losing out on Objective Secured - but nothing says you have to. You can always take a Warband as well, to Secure Objectives, but that’s not very Kill Maim Burn of you. You really want to be in combat though, and this is the best way to get there. The Black Crusade isn't nearly as good for this.

Tactical Objectives
11: Make a Deny The Witch test. Sure you’re all on 5+ as base, but you’re going to have nearly no dice to do it with. It’s not easy.
12: Completely destroy a unit on an objective marker. This is how you’re going to be taking objectives.
13: Make three successful charges. You should be doing this all the time anyway.
14: Kill someone in a challenge, with D3 if it’s the warlord. Again, something you’re doing all the time.
15: Destroy a unit, or allow one of your own to be destroyed, and get D3 for both. Getting your own unit destroyed is harder than it seems, because it’s specifically in your turn, so you need to badly lose a combat. You can at least pick up the “destroy a unit” bit.
16: Get a victory point for each destroyed unit. Should be easy to get the low versions of it, and if you’re lucky, you can really clean up.

Again, nobody ever said Khorne was subtle.

The Word Bearers really want to be always in combat, all the time. You should be doing everything you can to gear towards that, and in match-ups where that's not possible (jetbike eldar), you lose. Probably Daemonkin are better - Summoning things by killing things is really really good.


Death Guard
Everything has to take Mark Of Nurgle, which costs you a lot of points. However you get Fearless, Relentless, and Feel No Pain, three of the best rules in the game. Death guard are... The best. You lose a point of initiative, but who cares? Even power swords will have difficulty killing you, you're so tough.

You can take Typhus. However, any nameless chump has Feel No Pain now.

-- Chaos Lord - Terminator Armour [Power Axe], Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades - 125

You lose the Daemon Weapon rule, the Destroyer Hive, and you have to pay 20 points for a worse version of Plague Zombies. You’re also not a psyker. You’re nearly half the cost though. Do you really want those extra rules? You get a better Warlord Trait, and access to power swords, 4+ invulns, Palanquins, Bikes… or you could enjoy being half price, or you could get a Sorceror too. If you want those extra gubbins Typhus brings, he’s not all that bad, but you can definitely be more efficient.

You can take Plague Marines as troops. Trouble is, why would you? For six points over an ordinary marine, you get Blight Grenades and Poisoned weapons - neither of which is at all bad, but do you really need them? I'm actually asking: if you think you need a truckload of poisoned attacks, Plague Marines are there. Blight Grenades are great, though - if you have points spare, they're at least as useful as meltabombs. Remember you can throw them to Blind things.

Warlord Traits
1: +1 Feel No Pain. Will almost always be helpful.
2: It Will Not Die. Again, always good.
3: Lord Of Contagion. These hits are AP4, which actually makes them really good. However everything else on the table is even goddamn better, so consider re-rolling.
4: +1 Wound. Nice, but over the course of the game probably not as good as some of the others.
5: Eternal Warrior. The table that keeps on giving. Perhaps the best trait out there?
6: Re-roll. Again, it's good, but everything else is better.

None of these are bad, and 4/6 make your Warlord VP even harder to take. Particularly if you have a re-roll, this is a great table to roll on.

Artefacts
Puscleaver: Dirt cheap. Give it to a Daemon Prince, then it's AP2 and re-rolling to wound.
Plague Skull: One use only and ap-? No thank you.
Pandemic Staff: If you have more points to spend than the Puscleaver, take this on a prince instead: it'll wound on 2+ re-rollable against most things anyway, and you get a shooting attack too.
Dolorous Knell: Fear isn't really worth it.
Poxwalker Hive: This is decent under certain circumstances. Firstly, you can use it on Marked units of cultists (even ones without MoN). It’s more or less the same as Typhus’ rule if you only have one unit of cultists, but if you have several you probably want them off doing things, not hanging round with your character, queued up to get buffed. If all you want is a dirty great block of zombies on an objective without taking Typhus, then go wild! 20 points is probably less than one point per model.
Plaguebringer: 35 points for a poisoned daemon powersword? I'm not a fan.

Plague Colony
-WS is useless, -I is reasonable (it brings them down to your level) and though -T is great - you're now re-rolling to wound with all your poisoned weapons - you're then spending over a thousand points on seven MSU units without upgrades, which is a lot, and none of it has Objective Secured. That means you're paying 210 points over the cost of an equivalent group of Mark Of Nurgle marines.

Vectorium
Honestly, just about everything in the codex loves a Mark Of Nurgle. Take what you want, it's all good. The Chaos Warband is a really solid base for an army, and you should give serious consideration to taking a single spawn to make the Warband into a Vectorium, then just piling on more Objective Secured Fearless things. Especially useful are bikes, which take and hold Maelstrom objectives.

The Black Crusade is about as useful as the Vectorium, since +FNP and quasi-stealth are both good. How often will you be far enough away to get that +1 cover?

Tactical Objectives
1: Note that this says "table half" not deployment zone. If you've built your army sensibly, this will be trivial.
2: Note that this says "Phase" and is so actually harder than it sounds. For every Feel No Pain roll you make, you fail two (on average), which means at least fourteen models have died, which is actually a pretty bad phase for you. Zombies can grind it cheaply, though.
3: If you're not taking Plague Marines, you probably don't actually have that much poison. Hopefully you've got something casting powers, right? Try and get Nurgles Rot off on something weedy.
4: Nominate a character and score an extra victory point if they survive. This one shouldn't be too hard - either take your warlord, or someone who sits at the back trying not to get in trouble.
5: Very situational.
6: Unlike the other, this says "turn". D3+3 victory points is a hell of a bounty: it's well worth going all-out on this, though of course it depends on your opponent's list.

The generic objectives are probably easier, to be honest - especially since you should be seriously considering the Black Crusade instead of the Vectorium.

Nurgle Psychic Powers
Primaris: An awful lot of things in the game will just shrug this off. If you can position yourself around things that don't, though, it can be pretty effective.
1: This can be very useful against the right squad. Pick your targets carefully, because any of the million things that grant re-rolls of one turn this to ****.
2: Always fun, though you might not have that much this is worthwhile for.
3: Poisoned is often more useful for the pseudo-shred than it is the poisoning, which makes this a very effective power in the right hands. It's very useful for getting that Maelstrom objective too. Against MEQ lists where you wound on 4+ anyway, though, it's not very useful.
4: Useful for debuffing people before charging them: note the massive range on it.
5: AP2 poisoned blast! Great for raising two middle fingers to terminators. Blast makes it nearly useless against monstrous creatures though- roll one 4+, watch it fail.
6: One of the best powers in the game: +1 toughness is fantastic on just about anything, and can get you that glorious T7 bikestar. Unless you really need to, don't bother debuffing an enemy with it - remember that in most situations +1 Strength on a an attack is the same as -1 Toughness in defence.


Death Guard rule. If you want a "Competitive" list, it's these or Alpha Legion.

Emperor’s Children
You can take Lucius (he’s bad, you shouldnt) and Noise Marines are troops. Everything has to be Mark Of Slaanesh, which is… there are an awful lot of things in the codex which don’t care about +1 initiative. That’s quite a restriction. In exchange, you get Fearless and Feel No Pain 6+, which are decent (yet obviously a step below Death Guard). Finally, you get a special rule by which you can make a single attack if you’re killed in close combat before you can attack. This is not good. You’re spending all those points on Initiative, you should be going first against most things anyway. I guess it’s neat for models with only a few strong attacks anyway… but such things are usually unwieldy, and wouldnt you rather not die instead of making a single powerfist hit?

Warlord Traits
1: Eternal Warrior. Great!
2: This means you’re beating Eldar and Genestealers to the hit. That’s nice, but hardly universally helpful.
3: +1 Feel No Pain. If you’ve got an Icon of Excess, this puts you up to FnP 3+, and thats pretty good.
4: Fear sux.
5: Gain attacks as you lose wounds. I prefer my warlord not to lose wounds, and I prefer my warlord trait not trying to drag him into combat after losing wounds.
6: Autopass Look Out Sir rolls. This is pretty great.

Two are good, one is decent, the others are pretty rubbish. I’d roll elsewhere.

Artefacts
Intoxicating Elixir: D3 rolls on the Combat Drugs table: this is really nice, since it’s all good on that table. 25 points is a fair amount for it, though.
Shriekwave: A Strength 8 AP2 ranged weapon that makes D6 shots! Who cares about the mental trauma rule, this rules.
Soulsnare Lash: 20 points for an AP5 weapon is a lot, even if it is Rending and Instant Death.
Endless Grin: What was I just saying about Fear? At least it’s cheap.
Bolts of Ecstatic Vexation: This is really good.
Blissgiver: Kind of like how Force weapons used to work - except note that it’s not Instant Death so ignores Eternal Warrior. It’s certainly possible to build for effectiveness with this, stacking up leadership debuffs until you sneak a wound through and make Marneus Calgar orgasm himself to death. It’s pretty good.

Shame the rest of the legion is so bad, really, the Emperor’s Children have great relics.

Kakophoni
Noise Marines bring the always-lovely Ap3 Ignores Cover, and this formation gives you Split Fire so you can shoot your anti-infantry Sonic Blasters and your anti-heavy-infantry Blastmasters at different targets. And then it puts Shred on top of that. Noise Marines are better than ordinary CSM, so this is a pretty good formation for the Emperor’s Children - no Objective Secured, though. I’m also not at all sure you need the points outlay for +1 strength.

Rapture Batallion
Combat Drugs are great. The Kakophoni isn’t too bad. Beyond that… well, the various detachments offer plenty of things you can buy that don’t need a Mark Of Slaanesh that’s points down the drain. This works well as allies, actually - take a spawn and get Combat Drugs for your Kakophoni, and then spend the rest of your points on things from another detatchment that don't need to be Marked.

Tactical Objectives
11: Completely destroying a unit with sonic weapons is… way hard. I guess if you could pick on some devastators or a small squad in cover?
12: Kill a character in a challege. Get points for doing what you have to. If you’re not stupid, Slaaneshi units can do this really easily.
13: Kill a unit that’s Falling Back. Shouldn’t be too hard, but kind of a waste of firepower.
14: Score points for forcing units to fail Morale etc tests. Easier for you because Sonic weapons are Pinning.
15: Your opponent chooses a marker, score D3 victory points if you control it. This is probably pretty hard to get - you need to be both fast and killy, since your opponent will just pick one they have a tough Objective Secured unit or tank on. Get bikes.
16: Same as the last one, you need to force your opponent off their most prized objective. If you took the Kakophoni, you’re pretty screwed, since any Objective Secured unit at all beats you.

11 is the Traitors Hate 11 but harder. 15 is the Traitor’s Hate 15 but harder. 12 is the Traitors Hate 14, but it has to be in close combat. You don’t want to use this table.

I’m not sure what to suggest here. There’s kind of nothing much to do with the Mark Of Slaanesh, except take lots of Icons Of Excess and wish you were Death Guard. No, +1 FnP isn’t as good as +1 Toughness.

I hit the Character Count! The Thousand Sons stuff wasn't finished, so I took it out.

[Cheesegear]

Many legions move things to Troops. Remember that this happens even if you’re using Formations - you no longer give up VPs for Big Guns Never Tire or Purge, and some things (like Deathwatch) will work differently for you.

So many people forget that Battlefield Roles still matter, even in Formations. I was actually playing Big Guns the other day (I hate Eternal War), and at the very end of the game, I remembered that Centurions for Imperial Fists were Elites, not Heavy, even in a Formation. Denying my opponent a point, closing the Draw and putting me 1 point up.


Heldrake Terror Pack*
Heldrakes are good and this is the only way to do it. The Merciless Pursuit rule is broken, as in doesn’t function at all. Debuffs to leadership are sometimes good, though: will it be useful in your meta?

It's useful because it's two, tax-free Heldrakes. Insert it into any Chaos army you want. The bonuses are irrelevant. Orks and Necrons actually do find it useful, as well.


Black Crusade Detachment (Traitor’s Hate Only)
You should seriously consider taking this instead of your own Legion’s Detatchment. Free boon rolls are really that good. Can you mix and match Legions inside this detachment? So taking, say, a Death Guard Warband, and a Black Legion Raptor talon?

Please, please, please. With this MFD, find a way to jam a Dark Apostle into it. Either with Lost & The Damned (Core choice), or throw in a CAD. A Black Crusade is made with a 30 Point Spawn. You have room in your list for two units of (ObSec) Cultists, if it gets you a Dark Apostle in a Black Crusade Detachment.

Sucks that you can't take a Dark Apostle in the Command choice.

Also important in the Black Crusade Detachment is that you get <5 Sorcerers, no tax. Although if you've got 'Legions on you, you can see the Cyclopia Cabal.


Chosen Of Abaddon
If you’re taking four squads of Chosen they should be objective secured

Or, take x3 squads of Chosen, spend the fourth unit's points on Cypher, and make all the Chosen Infiltrate.


Cyclopia Cabal
Tax-free sorcerors. The Best. Their bonus power is nice, but not why you’re taking them.

It's certainly one of the reasons to take them. It's a very good Power.


16: Manifest a power, get more points for manifesting a Conjuration or even more for Sacrifice. You should be able to get the lower end easily. Is D3+3VP worth blowing up your Sorceror? Probably, yes.

HELL YES IT IS. D3+3 is an equivalent to Domination. Except instead of flooding the board with ObSec, all's you have to do is put 17 dice into Sacrifice. Oh noes. You Perils'd? Who could have possibly forseen this? Doesn't matter. Got Domination.


Alpha Legion
Your Warlord also basically can’t be killed until your last Character is killed. Remember you generate a new trait each time.

On another Table! Most of the Strategic Traits are only useful on Turn 1 - or before. After that? Roll on something else.


Insurgency Force
Can you get two units if you roll well, since The Lost And The Damned has the same rule? RAW says yes, but check your local group’s interpretation.

It actually appears intentional. Since the Alpha Legion's icon is a Hydra. HYDRA DOMINATUS.
One of the cases where basing a Formation on fluff actually comes out awesome.


Remember Typhus’ “plague zombies” rule states “all cultists in the army”, and the Poxwalker Hive states “any friendly unit”. If you want, you can give all those cultist squads Fearless and Feel No Pain for a 330pt Combined Arms Detatchment. However, Slow And Purposeful will really hurt that in a maelstrom game, and if you’re going all-out on cultists you might need them to do some shooting.

Roflcopters. Check your group's interpretation of 2-for-1 Cultists. But Typhus turning Cultists into Plague Zombies, and then putting Cultists Plague Zombies into a Formation that they're clearly not designed for, is legit and no-one gets to question you.

This is a rule to take to Facebook. It's far more important than 2-for-1 Cultists. KDK Detachments have Chaos Cultists, and RAW, they can be turned into Plague Zombies, but if you tried that, you'd get punched in the head.


12: Have a unit of Cultists destroyed. This will be happening a lot.

If you want an Objective Secured Warband - because it Infiltrates with Alpha Legion - the Lost & The Damned Formation is a Core choice, not Aux., which means you should go back to that CAD with a Dark Apostle with double units of Cultists.


15: Capture objectives in your opponent’s deployment zone, with 1VP for one or D3 for two. This is fairly difficult, although you’ve got the tools to do it if anyone can.

Warbands Infiltrate with ObSec. Bring Rhinos.


Grand Company
You can take Fortifications as an auxillary slot.

It's actually way better than it first appears. One of the bigger problems with MFDs (if MFDs have any problems at all), is that they can't take Forts as part of the Formation, which requires you to bring along a CAD, and pay taxes that you probably don't want.


Night Lords
Talons Of The Night Terror: I mean, if you WANT to be better at killing guardsmen...

*Ahem* Put 'em on a Daemon Prince.


Curze's Orb: Worth ignoring in my opinion. I guess it could save you from your own Plasma Pistol?

It's Preferred Enemy except not passed to squads. Terribad.


If you're running Night Lords, I'd give serious consideration to making this guy your warlord.

Night Lords Warband + Daemon Prince in the Command slot.


I'd frankly suggest using a CAD instead, maybe with a Talon attached for charging-from-deep-strike. Or not: you're not very good at Deep Striking anyway. Do you really want Night Fighting?

Melee units want Night Fighting. It means that they get shot at slightly less. Raptors in a CAD, go. Their MFD is bad. Raptor Talons is not a good core choice. And taking a Night Lords' Warband isn't why you want to play Night Lords. If you want a Night Lords Warband, you're better off playing Alpha Legion.


Word Bearers
You get boosts when trying to cast Conjuration powers. That’s good! You’re a little less likely to Perils yourself to death, and the best thing Chaos Space Marines can do is summon a better army…

I lol'd. Well done.


Out of left field, Word Bearers have the best artefacts in the book?

They don't even have access to 2+ Armour. So, no.


12: Completely destroy a unit with a unit of Daemons.

Or bring Magnus, Be'lakor, or a CAD/AD of Chaos Daemons or Summon some. I'm always looking for Objectives that I can Ally in another army to do the job actually better than my army.


World Eaters
Talisman of Burning Blood: +3 to Move, Charge, and Run distances. Very good indeed, nearly an autoinclude. Take this and the Maelstrom of Gore in the Butcherhorde, and you're moving 15"+2d6+2d6 with re-rolls. That should get you a first-turn charge, even if your opponent thinks they're being sneaky hiding six inches or so behind the line.

And you somehow thought Word Bearers had the best Relics?


Tactical Objectives
11: Make a Deny The Witch test. Sure you’re all on 5+ as base

Adamantium Will only works when you get targeted. Same as everything else. All the best Powers don't target your units, which means Denying on 6s.


The Word Bearers really want to be always in combat, all the time.

The Word Bearers want to be in combat!? I thought you already did those! In any case, I'd like to know if in World Eaters, Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne and CCWs are still better than Khorne Berzerkers, point-for-point. Potentially meaning that the Maelstrom of Gore kind of sucks - it kind of does - and that like Space Marines and the Battle Demi-Company, no Chaos Marine army should ever leave home without a Warband.


You can take Plague Marines as troops. Trouble is, why would you?

You wouldn't. Mark of Nurgle gives you FNP and Fearless straight up. Plague Marines are now trash in their own Legion.


5: Eternal Warrior. The table that keeps on giving. Perhaps the best trait out there?

One of them, certainly.


Dolorous Knell: Fear isn't really worth it.

Is never worth it. 'It', being direct competition against other Relics and points that you can spend on literally anything else.


The generic objectives are probably easier, to be honest

By 'Generic Objectives', do you mean SecOb 1-6? Because Chaos Marines hate those. Chaos Marines can't Scout, can't Infiltrate, can't Deep Strike properly, and their ObSec'd units are rarely fast enough to do anything at all. The less SecObs in the deck for Chaos Marines, the better.


Emperor’s Children
Artefacts

Again, really can't believe you thought Word Bearers have the best Relics...
Shame the rest of the Legion i- Oh...


Shame the rest of the legion is so bad, really, the Emperor’s Children have great relics.


Noise Marines are better than ordinary CSM

u wat?


so this is a pretty good formation for the Emperor’s Children - no Objective Secured

So what you're saying is that it's awful for Emperor's Children? "Noise Marines are Troops! Just kidding, take loads of them and lose Objective Secured!" I probably should've said the same thing about the Plague Marine Formation.


I’m also not at all sure you need the points outlay for +1 strength.

If you've got Sorcerers rolling on the Slaanesh Table (WRRRYYY!!!???) you can get another +1 Strength.

[LeSwordfish]

It's useful because it's two, tax-free Heldrakes. Insert it into any Chaos army you want. The bonuses are irrelevant. Orks and Necrons actually do find it useful, as well.

Good point! If you're cheesing, you can make the Heldrakes Night Lords regardless of what you're actually playing, for Stealth.




Please, please, please. With this MFD, find a way to jam a Dark Apostle into it. Either with Lost & The Damned (Core choice), or throw in a CAD. A Black Crusade is made with a 30 Point Spawn. You have room in your list for two units of (ObSec) Cultists, if it gets you a Dark Apostle in a Black Crusade Detachment.

Sucks that you can't take a Dark Apostle in the Command choice.

Also important in the Black Crusade Detachment is that you get <5 Sorcerers, no tax. Although if you've got 'Legions on you, you can see the Cyclopia Cabal.

I'm just unimpressed by Dark Apostles overall, really. Over a hundred points for Zealot and re-roll Boons? That's forty points more than a Chaos Lord, and he's got +1 in almost every stat. Re-rolling boons is nice, but you're already rolling twice and picking, do you really need to re-roll your double rolls? You're not getting Spawn'd unless you want to be - do you really want to pay 205 points minimum to get better rolls?

I should mention the Sorcerers thing, yeah - especially since getting Legion bonuses on them is sometimes way better than getting the Cabal's power.



Or, take x3 squads of Chosen, spend the fourth unit's points on Cypher, and make all the Chosen Infiltrate.

Cypher prevents you from taking a Legion list. Alpha Legion do the same thing, but with Objective Secured.

It's certainly one of the reasons to take them. It's a very good Power.

I guess it is? I can't help but feel that if you're dropping that many points on Sorcerers, you're probably planning something specific. I must admit, I'd never read the Cabal's rules before this book, and so assumed they got something else fantastic as well - I was a bit underwhelmed. You mean they're not casting on 3+, or sharing powers? They just... get that? I'd definitely rather be Word Bearers and Summoning on 3+, or Death Guard and FnP.


It actually appears intentional. Since the Alpha Legion's icon is a Hydra. HYDRA DOMINATUS.
One of the cases where basing a Formation on fluff actually comes out awesome.

I've seen at least one group announcing that the "official reading" is that it's a re-roll. I agree the RAW is pretty unambiguous, but I wouldn't be surprised if the consensus settled elsewhere. You'd think if it was deliberate, that they'd have mentioned it.


If you want an Objective Secured Warband - because it Infiltrates with Alpha Legion - the Lost & The Damned Formation is a Core choice, not Aux., which means you should go back to that CAD with a Dark Apostle with double units of Cultists.

Actually no! The Lost And The Damned is an Auxillary choice for Alpha Legion, so you need a Warband and then you take the LaTD extra.


*Ahem* Put 'em on a Daemon Prince.

I should mention this I guess, but if you're running a prince in Night Lords, I'd suggest the Stormbolt Plate instead.


They don't even have access to 2+ Armour. So, no.

I think something I should establish is: Word Bearers Summon. That's pretty much all. IMO, a Word Bearers list looks like a bare-bones Warband, a single Spawn, and a ass-ton of Sorcerors. Who cares if they're in Terminator Armor not Artificier Armor? Here are my five sorcerors. They're all bringing in daemons on 3+, and this one knows five Daemonology powers, and this one is going to roll d6 extra Warp Charge so someone can guaranteed turn into a Bloodthirster, and this one is giving his unit of Havoks Preferred Enemy, and this one is my warlord and is Mastery Level 4 from his Warlord Trait...

Maybe Best is an overestimate. I would suggest that they're the most consistently good, and the best at what Word Bearers want to do.


And you somehow thought Word Bearers had the best Relics?

All the others suck.


Adamantium Will only works when you get targeted. Same as everything else. All the best Powers don't target your units, which means Denying on 6s.

Good point! I've never put much thought into Denying powers because I spent the last year playing Space Marines (psychic hood) and Eldar (lol).


The Word Bearers want to be in combat!? I thought you already did those! In any case, I'd like to know if in World Eaters, Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne and CCWs are still better than Khorne Berzerkers, point-for-point. Potentially meaning that the Maelstrom of Gore kind of sucks - it kind of does - and that like Space Marines and the Battle Demi-Company, no Chaos Marine army should ever leave home without a Warband.


Whoops! I'm personally of the opinion that getting that 30" first-turn charge is worth a little Objective Secured, and that if you're playing Word Bearers you probably don't give much of a **** about shooting. Mark Of Khorne costs 56 points for a warband - can you not find 500-600 points to take a bunch of Objective Secured things to follow behind your maxed-out beserkers?

Chaos Marines with the Mark are 1ppm less, and lose only a single point of WS and the ability to take Chainaxes. You can take special weapons instead, which is way better. In a vacuum, yeah, you want the marines... but those bonus charges are really good on Beserkers.



You wouldn't. Mark of Nurgle gives you FNP and Fearless straight up. Plague Marines are now trash in their own Legion.

If you need poison, they bring it in truckloads, and Death Guard can boost it. In a small squad, after "extra close combat weapon" and "blight grenade on the sargeant", Plague Knives are only +1 point per model. (Plus you can take two special weapons in five - when you're Fearless and Feel No Pain, you can pull off MSU better than some.)


By 'Generic Objectives', do you mean SecOb 1-6? Because Chaos Marines hate those. Chaos Marines can't Scout, can't Infiltrate, can't Deep Strike properly, and their ObSec'd units are rarely fast enough to do anything at all. The less SecObs in the deck for Chaos Marines, the better.

Nope, sorry, Traitor's Hate ones.


u wat?

Ignores Cover is good, right? Ignores Cover Blast Krak missiles are really good, right?


So what you're saying is that it's awful for Emperor's Children? "Noise Marines are Troops! Just kidding, take loads of them and lose Objective Secured!" I probably should've said the same thing about the Plague Marine Formation.

I think the same sort of thing applies to all three* of these formations: You take these guys as your Line Troops, and some other dudes with Objective Secured. Pretend that none of them are Core choices and consider them in that light. In that light... khornates want a megacharge, Emperor's Children want their Ignores Cover shooting to be better, and Death Guard... well, they don't really care if you're -1 WS.

*The Thousand Sons ones are of course far far worse, since they can't take a Warband and can't take Objective Secured at all.

[Cheesegear]

Re-rolling boons is nice, but you're already rolling twice and picking, do you really need to re-roll your double rolls?

Yes. Because instead of not picking something, you can re-roll for something good. Instead of rolling a Boon you already have, and getting nothing, you can re-roll for something good. It's not about not picking Boons you don't want, it's about always getting something you do want.


You're not getting Spawn'd unless you want to be - do you really want to pay 205 points minimum to get better rolls?

How many points is a Turn 1 Daemon Prince worth when you go second?


Cypher prevents you from taking a Legion list.

Why? The Fallen Champions are a Chaos Space Marines Detachment. The only thing they can't take is Marks. If you're a Legion that doesn't use Marks, then the Fallen Champions get to use Legion rules.


Alpha Legion do the same thing, but with Objective Secured.

I guess. Point is, if you aren't playing Alpha Legion, and want something else, you can still pick up Infiltrating Chosen.
Scratch that. Ally in a CAD, take Chosen as Troops, get Infiltrate and ObSec in any army you want.


I'd definitely rather be Word Bearers and Summoning on 3+

Only with a Daemon Prince. Word Bearers Sorcerers aren't good because they aren't Daemons and don't have FNP. Which means they Perils.


I've seen at least one group announcing that the "official reading" is that it's a re-roll.

At no point anywhere in either rule anywhere, is the 're-roll' mentioned. At all. Anywhere.


but I wouldn't be surprised if the consensus settled elsewhere.

Everyone has their own opinions. But sometimes you have to just be like 'How did you get that out of this?'
At no point is 're-roll' ever mentioned.


The Lost And The Damned is an Auxillary choice for Alpha Legion, so you need a Warband and then you take the LaTD extra.

I was thinking of the Black Crusade Detachment.


I should mention this I guess, but if you're running a prince in Night Lords, I'd suggest the Stormbolt Plate instead.

But you have a Warband, right? What's on the Chaos Lord? The Stormbolt Plate is good if you have one model that can take a Relic. Once you start taking multiple models that can take Relics, and more than one of them is actually useful (I'm looking at you, Space Marines...Get better Relics!), which ones go where?

Lightning Claws on a Daemon Prince and 'Plate on a Lord is more useful than 'Plate on a 'Prince and then nothing.


I think something I should establish is: Word Bearers Summon.

If they ignored Perils and/or had FNP, I might think that that was good.


Maybe Best is an overestimate.

It sure is.


Whoops! I'm personally of the opinion that getting that 30" first-turn charge is worth a little Objective Secured

In Maelstrom, it really isn't.


and that if you're playing Word Bearers you probably don't give much of a **** about shooting.

You said the thing again.


Chaos Marines with the Mark are 1ppm less, and lose only a single point of WS and the ability to take Chainaxes. You can take special weapons instead, which is way better. In a vacuum, yeah, you want the marines... but those bonus charges are really good on Beserkers.

Eh. I've watched people do it. Unless you're going first, Berzerkers get real sad. If you're playing World Eaters, you're in the bottom tier of the Legions AFAIC. You have one trick, and if it doesn't work, you lose. Remember Dark Eldar in 5th? You might call it a meta-buster. But, yeah. Win on Turn 1, or lose on Turn 2. There doesn't appear to be a middle ground against a competent opponent.


If you need poison, they bring it in truckloads

Yeah, in Melee. Call me when Death Guard have Poisoned (2+) ranged attacks, and then I might care. You don't take Plague Marines for Plague Knives.


Ignores Cover is good, right? Ignores Cover Blast Krak missiles are really good, right?

They are. But, as I said last week when explaining that Noise Marines are bad, the 'minimum' squad for Noise Marines is 125 Points. I can think of a lot of things I would rather take for 125 Points than one Ignores Cover Missile Launcher.

EDIT:
In Space Marines, you can have an Allied Detachment of more Space Marines, despite being the same Faction, if you have different Chapter Tactics.
In Chaos, can you have an Allied Detachment of the same Faction, if you have different Legion rules?

[DaedalusMkV]

Why? The Fallen Champions are a Chaos Space Marines Detachment. The only thing they can't take is Marks. If you're a Legion that doesn't use Marks, then the Fallen Champions get to use Legion rules.

Check the restrictions on Special Characters again. Now think about what Cypher is. Now look for a Legion that specifically says you can take him.

No Legion is pals with Cypher, so Cypher's boys aren't getting Legion rules. Of course...



I guess. Point is, if you aren't playing Alpha Legion, and want something else, you can still pick up Infiltrating Chosen.
Scratch that. Ally in a CAD, take Chosen as Troops, get Infiltrate and ObSec in any army you want.

Yeah, who needs Cypher's pals when you could just use an AL CAD and take a Sorcerer instead of Cypher.



Only with a Daemon Prince. Word Bearers Sorcerers aren't good because they aren't Daemons and don't have FNP. Which means they Perils.

Yeah, but they have a 50% chance of ignoring Perils on a LD10 check thanks to rerolling any result on the Perils chart that isn't a 5 or 6. It's actually about as good a defense as FnP would be. Prince is still better, though.




I was thinking of the Black Crusade Detachment.

But then you don't get the actual "more than one Cultist squad comes back whenever you lose one" rule from the AL MFD. Frankly, I think any Chaos MFD using a Cult Uprising as its core choice is better off just taking a CAD. ObSec Cultists are better than Cultists that might come back after they die.



If they ignored Perils and/or had FNP, I might think that that was good.

Again, they do ignore Perils 50% or so of the time. It takes like 4 Perils results to kill a Sorcerer, more if you happen to have a Nurgle guy around to use that dodgy Nurgle power to heal up the Wounds you do take. Which you won't, but still.


EDIT:
In Space Marines, you can have an Allied Detachment of more Space Marines, despite being the same Faction, if you have different Chapter Tactics.
In Chaos, can you have an Allied Detachment of the same Faction, if you have different Legion rules?
You're still Faction: Chaos Space Marines, and unlike Loyalists there's no specific rule excepting you from the restrictions. You want a different Legion to complement your primary one, you're going to need to do it with a CAD. Which is fine, Cultists are cheap.

[Voidhawk]

Just to confuse matters, GW customer service says that the Imperial Agents book doesn't overrule the previous SoB digital codex, and so you can keep using Celestine. Does this mean it doesn't override the Inquisition book either, so you can keep using servo-skulls? Who knows!
http://i.imgur.com/VlQHfkq.jpg

[Blackhawk748]

Just to confuse matters, GW customer service says that the Imperial Agents book doesn't overrule the previous SoB digital codex, and so you can keep using Celestine. Does this mean it doesn't override the Inquisition book either, so you can keep using servo-skulls? Who knows!
http://i.imgur.com/VlQHfkq.jpg

So Sisters have 0 reason to buy this book? Im not surprised.

Also the Retributors are sold out on GWs site. Who the hell was buying them for $103 for 10 models??? On top of this the Heavy Weapons you get are all Multi Metlas! AKA the worst Weapon choice for the Retributors.

[Cheesegear]

On top of this the Heavy Weapons you get are all Multi Metlas! AKA the worst Weapon choice for the Retributors.

I have a suspicion that people weren't actually buying Retributors. They were buying x4 models with Multi-Meltas and then also getting six Battle Sisters.

Blackshirt & Customer
"Hooray, another Age of Sigmar player in the store!"
"...No, I'm just buying 80 Zombies because I like Typhus."
"Oh."

[Blackhawk748]

I have a suspicion that people weren't actually buying Retributors. They were buying x4 models with Multi-Meltas and then also getting six Battle Sisters.

Blackshirt & Customer
"Hooray, another Age of Sigmar player in the store!"
"...No, I'm just buying 80 Zombies because I like Typhus."
"Oh."

That... is a lot of money for 4 Multi Meltas.

[Cheesegear]

You're still Faction: Chaos Space Marines, and unlike Loyalists there's no specific rule excepting you from the restrictions. You want a different Legion to complement your primary one, you're going to need to do it with a CAD. Which is fine, Cultists are cheap.

I'm not talking about Cultists. I'm talking about all the Role swaps for all the Legions.

Iron Warriors, AD
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points

~350 Points for a T5 2+ Objective Secured unit to sit in your backfield while the rest of your army (e.g; Night Lords, Word Bearers) moves forwards. Could be great to Ally into a Daemons army, I guess. But...

Iron Warriors, CAD
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points

Is now 550 Points, and a lot less palatable. Maybe though, it might look more like...

Sorcerer; Spell Familiar - 75 Points
Obliterators (x2) - 140 Points
Obliterators (x2) - 140 Points

For ~350, which is what we were going to pay for the AD.

[Grim Portent]

On the discussion about Traior Legions above, WEs Chaos Marines are actually 4 points cheaper than Berzerkers. Base 13 points, swap out the bolter for a sword, 2 ppm for khorne and VotLW is free compared to 19ppm for a Berzerker. The only difference in WE lists is gear options and WS4 vs WS5, but with rerolls from Hatred (Space Marines) that usually won't matter, so all we have to compare is formation rules, and the normal chaos marines have better ones than Berzerkers do, and can take more flexible units like bikers and raptors, or heavy assault units like Havocs with 4x Meltaguns or Flamers and a ccw or Chosen with power axes.

Also on the note of mixing Legions, the Legion tactics are done on a detachment/formation by detachment/formation basis aren't they? So separate CADs should be able to be different Legions.

Also, since they are still Faction: Chaos Marines and are drawn from the same codex they do probably count as the same army which means no allying in other Legions, only proper CADs, though that is definitely a blurry spot and needs FAQd.


Really I'd say Traitor Legions makes all the Cult units inferior to their normal counterpart marked marines, with the exception of 1k Sons, who's mark upgraded marines are completely different from them when compared to how you use Nurgle Marines vs Plague Marines or Slaanesh Marines vs Noise Marines.

EDIT: In regards to allying in Obsec Obliterators, would it really be worth the points anyway? Point for point it'd probably be better to just slap down a bunch of cultists or Deathguard Marines/Havocs. More wounds and better durability.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm not talking about Cultists. I'm talking about all the Role swaps for all the Legions.

Iron Warriors, AD
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points

~350 Points for a T5 2+ Objective Secured unit to sit in your backfield while the rest of your army (e.g; Night Lords, Word Bearers) moves forwards. Could be great to Ally into a Daemons army, I guess. But...

Iron Warriors, CAD
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points

Is now 550 Points, and a lot less palatable. Maybe though, it might look more like...

Sorcerer; Spell Familiar - 75 Points
Obliterators (x2) - 140 Points
Obliterators (x2) - 140 Points

For ~350, which is what we were going to pay for the AD.

I thought Obliterators were T4? :smallconfused:

[Grim Portent]

I thought Obliterators were T4? :smallconfused:

T4 2W 2+ 5++

Not all that durable outside of Deathguard really.

[DaedalusMkV]

I'm not talking about Cultists. I'm talking about all the Role swaps for all the Legions.

Iron Warriors, AD
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points

~350 Points for a T5 2+ Objective Secured unit to sit in your backfield while the rest of your army (e.g; Night Lords, Word Bearers) moves forwards. Could be great to Ally into a Daemons army, I guess. But...

Iron Warriors, CAD
Sorcerer; [Stave], ML3, Spell Familiar - 125 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points
Obliterators (x3) - 210 Points

Is now 550 Points, and a lot less palatable. Maybe though, it might look more like...

Sorcerer; Spell Familiar - 75 Points
Obliterators (x2) - 140 Points
Obliterators (x2) - 140 Points

For ~350, which is what we were going to pay for the AD.

I know. What I meant was that the difference between an Allied Detachment and a CAD for Chaos Marines is a 50 point Cultist tax, if you're so inclined.

Worth noting: Not T5. Obliterators are only T4 unless you can Nurgle Mark them, which Iron Warriors cannot. Historically, 'Obliterators are T5' has been pretty much true because everyone and their dog paid the 6 points to Nurgle mark them (because why wouldn't you?), but Iron Warriors can't do that.

Also worth noting that solo-Obliterators are pretty good ways to fill out a bare-bones CAD.

Iron Warriors CAD
Sorcerer: ML3, Spell Familiar (125)
Obliterators: 2 Extra Obliterators, VotLW (210)
Obliterators: VotLW (70)

Is 70 points more than your original detachment, and gets a cheapo Solobliterator to sit on a second Objective and otherwise not do much. Or 10 Cultists for 20 less points to sit in cover and Go to Ground any time someone looks at them funny. If you really do have only 340 points to spend, just go with one unit of two Oblits and one unit of one.

[Cheesegear]

On the discussion about Traior Legions above, WEs Chaos Marines are actually 4 points cheaper than Berzerkers. Base 13 points, swap out the bolter for a sword, 2 ppm for khorne and VotLW is free compared to 19ppm for a Berzerker.

That's what I'm talking about. If Veterans also hands out Fearless and Furious Charge, then the only difference is that Berzerkers pay 4 Points per model for WS5, and Weapon Skill is basically useless, especially with Hatred in the mix. You're simply better off with a World Eaters' Warband with the Mark of Khorne. Berzerkers have always been bad, and with Traitor Legions making not!Berzerkers also cost 4 points less, what's even the point?

Maelstrom of Gore is bad.


Really I'd say Traitor Legions makes all the Cult units inferior to their normal counterpart marked marines

Only because Veterans (for free) hands out Fearless. If it didn't do that, Cult units would still be viable. Unfortunately, Chaos Marines (the unit, not the Faction) no longer need to be babysat by a Lord, don't have to pay 25 Points for an Icon that can be targeted out, and are just...Good. Fearless ObSec is for winners. I no longer understand why any player - regardless of Legion - would not take a Warband. Even Alpha Legion, who love Cultists, still have good Warbands. A Warband is the equivalent of a Battle Demi-Company. If you don't take one - and I don't care why you aren't taking one - you're shooting yourself in the foot, and you need a really, really, really, no, really good reason not to take a Warband.

Berzerkers; Have WS5. WS5 is useless.
Plague Marines; Have Plague Knives. Nobody cares about Plague Knives.
Noise Marines; Sonic weapons. Sonic weapons aren't good - except for the one that is, which is 30 Points for one.

That's the only difference that Cult Troops have. Excepting Thousand Sons, which pay through the nose to be completely different to Chaos Marines.


Worth noting: Not T5. Obliterators are only T4 unless you can Nurgle Mark them

I thought they were equivalent to Centurions. Obviously not.


but Iron Warriors can't do that.

Yeah, okay. Forget I said anything.


Also worth noting that solo-Obliterators are pretty good ways to fill out a bare-bones CAD.

Obliterators have Deep Strike, and I almost had an idea where Chaos could pretend to be Farsight Enclaves and Deep Strike in multiple, single model ObSec units anywhere they want. Then I remembered that the reason that that's actually good is because a Crisis Suit rarely goes above 55 Points, while a single Obliterator is 70, base.

[Blackhawk748]

I thought they were equivalent to Centurions. Obviously not.

Yup, cuz even when the Loyalists steal a Chaos thing, theirs is better.

[Drasius]

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bskswLwaT74/WFLPWa_bBSI/AAAAAAABKk8/U8CftaNE6PMe3cNY0ZQn0O7B40k0JYBqwCLcB/s1600/marines_made_to_order.jpg

I will comment on the CSM stuff once my internet sorts itself out again.

[JennifeBroflo]

Great Thread with full details, thanks to author! I need WH40K :smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

[Cheesegear]

*Hideous Made To Order Models*

Ugh. I know that the guys who played the game in 2nd/3rd Ed. need their 'Member Berries, but those are some ugly, terrible, awful models. I'm glad they're gone, and bringing them back gives me my 'member berries of how terrible that Chaplain-on-Bike kit was.
The Inquisitors in Termiator Armour look God-awful. Vulkan looks old and bad.

The only model that is even remotely good, and I can attest, is that Black Templars Marshal. But, then again, I've made a better kit-bash of that exact model, basically without even trying.
Space Marine Commander & Black Templars upgrade kit. You did it. You also get to make 9 more Black Templars.

[DaedalusMkV]

Ugh. I know that the guys who played the game in 2nd/3rd Ed. need their 'Member Berries, but those are some ugly, terrible, awful models. I'm glad they're gone, and bringing them back gives me my 'member berries of how terrible that Chaplain-on-Bike kit was.
The Inquisitors in Termiator Armour look God-awful. Vulkan looks old and bad.

The only model that is even remotely good, and I can attest, is that Black Templars Marshal. But, then again, I've made a better kit-bash of that exact model, basically without even trying.
Space Marine Commander & Black Templars upgrade kit. You did it. You also get to make 9 more Black Templars.

I have that Grey Knight Justicar. It's a good model, you could probably use it as a Brotherhood Champion or something these days. It's got classic "3rd Edition pose syndrome", but it's decently dynamic looking so it isn't as bad as most models with that problem. Otherwise, yeah. Those old Terminators especially were just not good. They must have all been horrible hunchbacks after wearing that armour for an hour or two.

[Cheesegear]

It's a good model, you could probably use it as a Brotherhood Champion or something these days.

I believe you're supposed to. That model is the 'official' model for the Brotherhood Champion page.

[LeSwordfish]

I'll respond to the chaos stuff later, but remember when Kharn and Skarbrand weren't in Khorne Daemonkin? Celestine isnt getting canned. Prediction: they're just shifting stock of the metal models, and we'll see a standalone codex including a massive Celestant-prime style Celestine.

[LeSwordfish]

Yes. Because instead of not picking something, you can re-roll for something good. Instead of rolling a Boon you already have, and getting nothing, you can re-roll for something good. It's not about not picking Boons you don't want, it's about always getting something you do want.

How many points is a Turn 1 Daemon Prince worth when you go second?

Fair enough - I mean, if I just wanted to snark i'd say that given you have less than a 1/4 chance of getting it, it would have to be more than 820 points to be worthwhile, and that you can just BUY a prince for less than you're paying for the CAD. But yes, it's a good point.

Other people have mentioned the Cypher thing, but I should actually specifically mention the "No Uniques" thing. Hopefully Forge World will come through and be like "hey, our CSM characters are exceptions to that, you can take them in these places. Don't worry, Necrosius is still in."



Everyone has their own opinions. But sometimes you have to just be like 'How did you get that out of this?'
At no point is 're-roll' ever mentioned.

I think the idea is that you assume the "Identical unit" line is a poorly-thought-through RAW quirk, and that you only get the same unit back, but you get to roll for it twice. I mean, I agree it's bull****, but what the meta says, the meta does. Just hope they're not calling bull**** on that but letting trip-wraithknights fly.


But you have a Warband, right? What's on the Chaos Lord? The Stormbolt Plate is good if you have one model that can take a Relic. Once you start taking multiple models that can take Relics, and more than one of them is actually useful (I'm looking at you, Space Marines...Get better Relics!), which ones go where?

Lightning Claws on a Daemon Prince and 'Plate on a Lord is more useful than 'Plate on a 'Prince and then nothing.

What's on the chaos lord? Low expectations. I've got a Daemon Prince to do most of his job for him. Okay, that was unnecessarily flippant, and I do intend to put the note in. I just personally dont tend to put too many points into secondary characters.


Eh. I've watched people do it. Unless you're going first, Berzerkers get real sad. If you're playing World Eaters, you're in the bottom tier of the Legions AFAIC. You have one trick, and if it doesn't work, you lose. Remember Dark Eldar in 5th? You might call it a meta-buster. But, yeah. Win on Turn 1, or lose on Turn 2. There doesn't appear to be a middle ground against a competent opponent.

So the big question of "World Eaters vs Daemonkin" thoroughly comes out on Daemonkin's side then?


Yeah, in Melee. Call me when Death Guard have Poisoned (2+) ranged attacks, and then I might care. You don't take Plague Marines for Plague Knives.

It's not good, but... if you want poison, plague marines can do that. If you want plague marines, find a way to be good at poison. Wounding on 3s or 2s re-rolling in close combat can be decently effective.


They are. But, as I said last week when explaining that Noise Marines are bad, the 'minimum' squad for Noise Marines is 125 Points. I can think of a lot of things I would rather take for 125 Points than one Ignores Cover Missile Launcher.

Huh, that's right.


EDIT:
In Space Marines, you can have an Allied Detachment of more Space Marines, despite being the same Faction, if you have different Chapter Tactics.
In Chaos, can you have an Allied Detachment of the same Faction, if you have different Legion rules?

I'll put the answer in: it's No.


On the discussion about Traior Legions above, WEs Chaos Marines are actually 4 points cheaper than Berzerkers. Base 13 points, swap out the bolter for a sword, 2 ppm for khorne and VotLW is free compared to 19ppm for a Berzerker. The only difference in WE lists is gear options and WS4 vs WS5, but with rerolls from Hatred (Space Marines) that usually won't matter, so all we have to compare is formation rules, and the normal chaos marines have better ones than Berzerkers do, and can take more flexible units like bikers and raptors, or heavy assault units like Havocs with 4x Meltaguns or Flamers and a ccw or Chosen with power axes.

Jesus, 4ppm? I miscalculated and thought it was 1ppm. No, Bezerkers are trash, the maelstrom is trash, World Eaters are trash, burn it all down and take Daemonkin.

Does the +3inch move relic work when allied into a squad? Could one take it - as just about the best thing World Eaters have - in an AD, and run the rest of the list as Daemonkin?

---

Really, all Traitor Legions is missing is a blanket "replace the "chaos space marine" units in the Warband" with whatever you get as troops" over the whole thing, or maybe just the MFDs. That'd make it a lot easier to take a whole bunch of whatever it is you want without needing a couple squads of dorks that aren't what you want as well.

---

I wonder how well proxying Deathwatch as Thousand Sons would work. Squads of marines and the occasional Librarian, plus terminators: cheaper per model, no invuln but the better ammo types.

[Grim Portent]

I'm kind of on the fence about if WE or KDK is better, they kind of do different things.

WE is more focused on hitting power and long grinding combats from being unbreakable. Fearless, Hatred (Space Marines) and Furious Charge on everything all the time is pretty good and the special detachment is basically 2d6 Scout on everything but vehicles. So your 'Berzerker' Bikers are starting an average of 7" closer to enemies than normal, which makes it that much easier to rush forward and melta tanks and assault, plus all the slower units dashing forward onto objectives and camping them with Fearless and Counterattack.

KDK is summoning and durability focused by comparison. Army wide FNP is a big boost, and the ability to summon daemons is really nice, but at the same time all the marine units are basically inferior to their daemon counterparts in the same list, since the daemons are Fearless, have always on Furious Charge, cost less points than the marines in the same role and aren't a whole lot more fragile once FNP is slapped on. Problem here is that you need the Blood Tithe points to meet your potential and have to pick and choose buffs and summons rather than always having specific buffs on.

WE is better suited to all marines all the time, while KDK is basically a better version of Chaos Daemons for mono-Khorne since it's marine units are all still meh to bad usually. Other than the Gorepack I don't really think there's anything much about KDK that's better than WE, and even then that's just because Flesh Hounds are like better Bikers/Spawn.



Really though WE look like the sort of army that wants to make, or at least contribute to, a Death Star unit. I need to run the numbers on WE Bikers vs Flesh Hounds to see who hits harder, but you could stick in various Legion lords to make a pretty hard to kill unit that moves lightning fast. NL lord for 3+ Jink on bikers, WE lord for +3" movements, AL for better Hit and Run. Need to glance at the other Legion relics to see if there's anything else to add, but any combination of 2 of the above could be pretty scary as part of the right list.

[Ricky S]

Eurgh I missed out on my chance to buy the female inquisitor with a power sword. Im rather annoyed. How long does the made to order last for? A week?

[LeSwordfish]

Speaking of Chaos, I have an Iron Warriors vs Death Guard showdown for you.

War-Log
I met Peturabo once. Or, well, I say Met. I marched in a parade, which he witnessed, before I became a sargeant. I admired him - it was impossible not to. He seemed powerful, a tank of a man, larger and more devastating than a Kastellan. His eyes swept over the crowd, and for a moment he looked directly at me. I was target locked by a Knight once: the experience was similar.

I say this so you understand that, when I call his sons treacherous whoreson bastard's bastards, it does not come from bias.

Armies
Death Guard Vectorium:

Chaos Warband
Typhus
3x Chaos Terminators - 2x Combi-Melta, Lightning Claw, Mark Of Nurgle
10x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasma Gun, Powersword, Rhino, Mark Of Nurgle
10x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Meltagun, Powersword, Rhino, Mark Of Nurgle
3x Chaos Bikers - 2x Meltaguns, Power axe, Mark of Nurgle
5x Havoks - Missile Launchers, Mark Of Nurgle

Fist Of The Gods
Warpsmith - Mark Of Nurgle
Land Raider
Chaos Vindicator
Chaos Vindicator

The standard. I like Vindicators. I don't like a 135pt tax to take them.

Iron Warriors Grand Formation

Chaos Warband
Chaos Lord - Iron Warriors Artificier Armour with IWND, Plasma Pistol, Powerfist, Gift, Sigil
Chaos Sorceror - ML3, Familiar, Gift
5x Chaos Chosen - Meltaguns, Rhino
10x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmaguns, Powersword, Gift
10x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Flamers, Powersword, Gift
10x Havocs - 4x Lascannons
5x Warp Talons

That Obliterator Formation
Warpsmith
3x Obliterators
1x Obliterator
1x Mutilator

A friend - my regular Ultramarines opponent - wanted to try out the new Chaos stuff, so I loaned him the books and he wrote a list while I painted my new bikes. You can see the difference in our styles - am I really that wierd in only ever taking the minimum of ICs?


Deployment
Maelstrom, the one where you can steal "Secure Objective X" cards. I opt to deploy and go first. The terrain is a sort of fortress setup in the middle - very appropriate for the Iron Warriors - with scrubland and craters around. I send my Land Raider (with Warpsmith inside) and Vindicators up one flank, Rhinos and bikes up the other. with Typhus, the terminators, and the Havoks waiting to hop into cover in the middle. He counter-deploys against me - Sorceror and Chosen in a rhino, far out opposite my tanks. Next to them in cover is the Obliterator and Mutilator, then the Havoks, then the Lord and plasma gunners, then the Warpsmith and Obliterators, then the flamer squad opposite my bikes.

He rolls a ton of gifts I don't remember, and Ectomancy powers on his sorceror. He gets Bolster Defenses on the Iron Warriors warlord table, which is really good, and lets him immediately counter me Shattering the crater his obliterators sit in, while he Shatters one of the buildings on the fortification I want to put the Havoks in.

Turn One

He doesn't Sieze.

I get (control all objectives) (kill a unit with shooting) and (kill a psyker.) I'm not getting the first, since he has something parked on half the objectives, but I can totally kill a unit. The Fist Of The Gods trundles forward towards the sorceror, and the bikes sweep up one flank, while Typhus and the Havoks move into cover, with Typhus and his retinue grabbing the objective in the middle of the fort. The Havoks fire on the sorceror's rhino, but can't kill it, and the Fist is poorly placed, so I have to kill it with a Vindicator shell. The other vindicator kills the solobliterator, while the land raider fails to kill the Mutilator thanks to it going to ground. The bikes are just out of range to properly hit anything or do anything, so they just hang around, while the rhinos are too far back to do anything - i'm playing them cautiously.

In his first turn, (he gets asked to kill a unit with his Obliterators), to kill a unit, and kill a unit in close combat. He barely moves, except to hide his sorceror behind the wrecked rhino, and charge the chosen towards the nearest vindicator. Between Lascannons and Meltas he wrecks one Vindicator and Stuns the other, before his Obliterators double-tap and pop a rhino. His flamer squad shoots and then charges the bikes, and the champions challenge. Only one of us is T6 FnP though, and his champion is sliced up in short order. Another Iron Warrior dies, but no bikes do, and he's Stubborn so passes the test to remain. My Bike Champion rolls boons, and gets +1 toughness. Don't applaud yet - wait for it...

I've got First Blood and i've killed a unit with shooting. He's killed a unit for one, with obliterators for two points.

Turn Two
I discard (control all objectives) and pick up "capture objective four" - under his obliterators - and... something else. My Warpsmith hops out and tries to fix the damaged vindicator, while the Land Raider rotates to take on the Chosen. I measure the distance to objective four, write it off as a loss, and leave my other rhino where it is: I'm not pressing well on that flank. The disembarked plasma squad moves in the vague direction of the bike fight - I need them not bogged down for too long. On a similar note, Typhus tries to cast Gift Of Contagion on the flamer squad. It's not a success - he perils, losingThe Land Raider kills two of the chosen with Lascannons, and the Havocs manage to only hit the Sorceror with one krak missile - it's enough, though, and he goes down. In the fight with the flamer squad, the bikers make a kill, and the champion slices two more of them up. They may be Stubborn, but they roll an eleven and they're off! Leaving the bikes high and dry, though.

My opponent picks up the Iron Warriors objective that gives him D3 for holding an objective for a full turn, and places it on Objective Four. He's discarded the "kill in close combat" instruction, and is asked to capture objective six. That's on his side of the fortress, near Typhus, so his Lord joins the warp talons and they make a beeline for it. His last objective is under my plasma squad, to his chagrin. The Chosen jump onto objective five (right next to my Land Raider) and fire their meltas again, knocking two hull points off, while the Havocs wreck the vindicator. His Obliterators and plasma squad move forward off Objective Four, and Fire Everything! at the plasma squad, and then Fire Everything again, but they're in cover and stealthed and... it doesn't work, okay? Three of them live and stay on the objective. Death Guard!

Neither of us scored anything this turn, somehow.

Turn Three
I'm ordered to capture the objective his chosen are on, so the Warpsmith hops back in and the Land Raider drives onto it to deny it - except, of course, Fist Of The Gods isn't Objective Secured, so that fails to work. I still have to get Objective Four, which my bikes turbo-boost onto, and I also have to capture Objective Six, next to his Warp Talons, so Typhus and his squad hop up onto that. The Rhino squad still holds back - i'm not going to win a firefight with three obliterators, but maybe i'll find something else useful to do. I should probably have moved them somewhere else but in the end they just kind of stayed parked. Typhus can't actually see the talons to charge - they're down under the parapet - so nothing else happens this turn. I do claim both my old Objective Four and the objective under the plasma squad though.

He still has to get Objective Four back (no matter how easy that objective is, you can't cycle it out for another) and he gets the Iron Warriors one to kill tanks. His obliterators move back onto Objective Four, but they're not Objective Secured so those bikes need to die. Neither goes well - the lascannons and Chosen still can't get the Land Raider, and anything that could see the rhino needs to shoot the bikes. With Jink, 3+, T6, and FnP, they're super resistant - but one dies to a horde of assault cannon shots... which means my unit is now Majority T7! Now you can applaud. The warpsmith and obliterators charge. The warpsmith challenges, the sargeant accepts - and slices his head clean from his shoulders with a power scythe. Thats nice, but nine powerfist attacks, even only wounding on threes, is plenty to kill both him and his companion. The battle for Objective Four is lost. Over on Objective Six, the Warp Talons and Lord charge Typhus and the Terminators. Between no grenades (god, warp talons suck) and Blight Grenades, they're getting no charge bonuses at all and at Initiative 1, which allows my Terminators to kill two Talons while Typhus rolls a Six for his Daemon Weapon like a boss and slices two wounds off the nameless Lord. In return, the Lord scores two wounds on Typhus... who Feel No Pain's both away, like a boss. (It Will Not Die is good though, and the Lord gets one of those wounds back.)

I've captured Objective Four for one, and stolen his objective for two, but Objective Six is all to play for. He got Objective Six once and another objective, didn't kill a tank, and rolled a 2 on the D3 for Objective Four. 4-7 to him!

Turn Four
I have to capture Objective Three, and manifest a power. Remember that Mutilator, all on his lonesome? He's been rolling low to crawl out of the forest all game, but he's still more or less on the objective he was on at the start of the game, and now I've nothing that can claim it, except the Land Raider - and Warpsmith. The Warpsmith disembarks and heads into the forest, while the raider pivots to point it's lascannons at the Mutilator. My rhino moves forward - it's been taking pot shots at the Obliterators all game now, but I need to do something against them soon or lose. Typhus manifests Force on himself, and follows it up by boosting his unit's Stwrength and Toughness. Everything that can, shoots the Mutilator, but it Goes To Ground, and it's 2+/4++ and I can't seem to scratch it. Finally, the Warpsmith fires his meltagun and kills it - but now he can't run, and that objective's still out there. In the combat, my opponent successfully makes a Heroic Intervention, allowing his Warp Talon Champion to take over from his lord against Typhus - less a Heroic Intervention than "hey you, switch places" perhaps. The Lord punches a terminator to death, my Champion kills two Warp Talons with his boosted strength, and Typhus, with Force up, scores four wounds in total, enough to murder the champion and carry on over to finish off the rest of the squad and the lord. Man Of The Match, right? He rolls his boons and gets Eternal Warrior, Nothing, Stubborn, and Spawnhood, so... nothing, really.

In his turn, he picks up Big Game Hunter - he really needs a tank dead - and one for getting behind my lines, plus something I forget. This is still all to play for, but with the Warpsmith dead he only has three chances for his Obliterators to crack a rhino, and his Chosen and Havocs to kill the land raider. The Chosen peel off and head for linebreaker, trusting the Havocs, while the Obliterators trundle towards the Rhino. They shoot triple-melta at it, but roll one miss, one snake-eyes to damage, and then only force it to snap shoot. The Havocs do similarly poorly against the Land Raider - I keep forgetting how good AV14 is! The Plasma squad do rather better - even with +1 toughness, they go through Typhus' terminators like butter and leave Typhus on his own. The Obliterators try to charge the Rhino, but take a casualty from an overwatching rhino, which means they're just a bit too far away.

I've manifested a power and slain the warlord. He's not scored anything, for 6-7 to me.


Turn Five
I still have to capture Objective Three, and my Warpsmith jogs onto it. Another objective I need to get is right near my Havoks, and I have to get Objective 4 - which my rhino speeds forwards onto. The Havoks can still shoot after moving and kill the Chosen, and when my unharmed melta-squad kills his obliterators, my opponent concedes. He's only got two squads left to my five, and I'm now winning 9-7.


War-Log
The Iron Warriors left the battlefield abruptly, as though they had remembered an appointment. One can only consider that their chances of reclaiming this fortress had dipped below some significant margin.

Our banner is now high indeed, and more of Typhon's old friends - new friends? - flock to it. The Court Of The Fly is growing fat with new members, our armored vehicles have been augmented by a technologist - and I hear that Bane's warband has grown too. He was notably absent at this battle - I do not like to consider where his loyalties lie, when we fight our "brothers".

We are... reascendent. Typhon brings us victory after victory, and I hear rumors from across the galaxy - the Sons at Prospero, the Sons Of Horus elsewhere. To move against him now might jeopardize rather more than our own warband's future. We have our blades to the imperium's throat. Now is not the time to jostle for who may make the cut.

Aftermath
A good game! That guy is always a good opponent - he's knowledgable about the rules, and has much of the same style as me, with a certain skill in building lists to the correct degree of hardness. I beat him here, but had his Turn 4 gone less disastrously he would have got two points and denied me one, all in one go. I think the dice got me this one, though it's a good list and a lot of fun. The sheer firepower it can tank is incredible - i'm very tempted to try it without the Fist some time, and just pile on six hundred more points of Havoks, Marines, and probably a Sorceror.

I didn't get a single Faction Objective, or get to make a Warlord Trait roll. I might have to ditch Typhus and either promote Goiter (terminator armour, powersword, power axe) or give Cyrus a leading role. Really, what I want is a sorceror in charge.

[Cheesegear]

What's on the chaos lord? Low expectations. I've got a Daemon Prince to do most of his job for him. Okay, that was unnecessarily flippant, and I do intend to put the note in. I just personally dont tend to put too many points into secondary characters.

One of the major problems with most Codecies is that they only have one good Relic, and the rest kind of suck or don't work right depending on the model you give them to. This usually means that it isn't worth having multiple HQs because only one of them is ever actually any good. It's only when you see a Codex with more than one good Relic (e.g; Angel's Blade - Death Company), that you start seeing multiple Characters. You only ever take one Exalted Gift in Daemons because there's only one good Relic - The Grimoire. Then Curse of the Wulfen comes out, and it's not uncommon to see two or three models with Relics.

The number of HQs in your army is usually limited by the number of Relics. Unless you're Eldar. Because 115 Points for a Jetseer is a steal.

IRN; Coteaz is still 100 Points and got better.


So the big question of "World Eaters vs Daemonkin" thoroughly comes out on Daemonkin's side then?

I remember doing this, I think in my old 6th Ed. Chaos Guide.

Chaos Space Marines (x10); [Close Combat Weapon], x2 Meltaguns, Mark of Khorne - 180 Points
Khorne Berzerkers (x10); - 200 Points

Any wargear you could give the Champions cancel out. Any Rhinos you take would cancel out.

Now, Khorne Berzerkers have Fearless and Furious Charge and WS5.
The Marines can use the 20 spare points they have for Icon of Vengeance, which makes them Fearless. Fearless ObSec is for winners. But, then you can't take the Icon of Wrath, which would give you Furious Charge, and re-rolling Charges. But, the point I'm making, is that on Chaos Marines, it's Fearless or Furious Charge, not both. Also remembering that it's one model which hands out the bonus to the unit, which means that model can be Precision Shotted or Barraged out of the unit and then where are you? Or, the 'Marines can be babysat by a Chaos Lord, and there's only so many Lords to go 'round. Especially if you're playing Khorne, 'cause that means Juggerlord, and your Juggerlord has better things to do than stand on Objectives.

Berzerkers hit things on 3s. The other thing is, since Berzerkers don't have to waste their Icon 'slot' on Fearless, they pick up Wrath for 15 Points, giving them re-rolls to Charge. The only thing Chaos Marines have over Berzerkers is access to Meltaguns, and if you want your Chaos Marines for Meltagunning things, you don't need the Mark of Khorne to do it, and you should probably put your Boltguns back on.

Then you come to World Eaters; Chaos Marines get Furious Charge and Fearless for free, which frees up their Icon slot for Wrath (unfortunately, the Codex doesn't take the fact that they now have Furious Charge as standard, and the Wrath Icon is still 20 Points). They're still 4 Points less, and still have access to Meltaguns. You could even leave their Boltguns on and run them with three weapons, and they'd still be cheaper than Berzerkers.


Wounding on 3s or 2s re-rolling in close combat can be decently effective.

It's getting to Melee that's the hard part.


No, Bezerkers are trash, the maelstrom is trash, World Eaters are trash, burn it all down and take Daemonkin.

No, no. Like most things Chaos (and Wrath of Magnus drove this point home like a piledriver), everything is better with Daemons. When I think of the power units in Daemonkin, I'm thinking of D-Thirsters and Khorne Dogs. Both Daemon units. The only time I see 'Marines' in Daemonkin, is the ****ing Possessed tax in the Slaughtercult. Everything else is basically Bloodletters or Cultists.

Daemonkin is for Daemons. World Eaters are for, y'know, Marines.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Battle report time!

One of my friends called me this morning and asked to play some 40k before we both leave for break. He's never played, so he is even newer at the hobby than I am. I whipped up a couple of 750 lists based on what was lying around and not yet packed. My friend ended up using Imperial Guard, and I decided to play around with the Alpha Legion. I had roughly twenty minutes to write the lists and didn't feel like unpacking better models, so don't be too harsh on the lists :smalltongue:


Alpha Legion CAD
Everything that can take VotlW has done so (for free)
105 - Chaos Lord Kreon w/ Power Maul, Sigil of Corruption
90 - Chaos Sorcerer Arminius w/ ML2, Spell Familiar

100 - Chaos Space Marines (x5) w/ plasma gun and combi-plasma
100 - Chaos Space Marines (x5) w/ plasma gun and combi-plasma
80 - Chaos Space Marines (x5) w/ meltabombs
120 - Chosen (X5) w/ melta gun x3
50 - Cultists (x10)

90 - Chaos Bikes (x3) w/ melta guns x2

Total: 750



Imperial Guard CAD
100 - Company Command Squad w/ Lascannon HW team, medpak, vox caster

60 -Platoon Command Squad w/ autocannon HW team, medpak, vox caster
60 - Infantry Squad w/ mortar, vox caster
60 - Infantry Squad w/ grenade launcher, vox caster
60 - Infantry Squad w/ grenade launcher, vox caster
45 - Special Weapons Squad w/ flamers x3
95 - Veterans w/ grenade launcher x3, vox caster

50 - Armoured Sentinel w/ autocannon, and smoke launchers
45 - Armoured Sentinel w/ h. flamer and smoke launchers

175 - Leman Russ Exterminator w/ lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons, smoke launchers


The map was an atypical one, with a couple of large lava rivers with narrow bridges and lots of rock formations; it was basically Mordor but with Chaos Space Marines instead of orcs. Since we had such small point limits, we ran with three objectives (one in each deployment zone and one in the middle, each one worth 1d3 VPs). I deployed first, which really just ended up being the bikers, the cultists, and the meltabomb CSM squad with the lord and sorcerer attached. Everything else was going to infiltrate (I didn't infiltrate the cultists cause I needed an objective grabber and I didn't infiltrate the CSM squad cause my HQ's needed meat shields). The Sorcerer rolled on Biomancy, grabbing Iron Arm and Enfeeble. I ignored enfeeble because I was playing guard and it didn't matter that much. Iron Arm was a sweet pick up, though. Being immune to lasguns is nice when facing guard.

Since it was his first official game (and like my fifth, so . . . the other guys in the store were super useful) He deployed his forces in a gunline, with the mortar team and the platoon command squad hanging around the Leman Russ in the centre, his company command squad camped out in his objective. which happened to be a building with firing points. The Sentinels, an infantry squad and the special team bunched up on the right side of the board (which had a sort of canyon set up) the remaining infantry squad and the vets positioned themselves next to the bridge across the lava river.

I infiltrated in my remaining units, with the two marine squads hiding in cover near the objective and the right side of the board (near his sentinel blob) and the Chosen hiding behind a rock as close as possible to the Leman Russ.

He got the Warlord trait from the BRB that improves your Seize the Initiative roll to 5+, which he then proceeded to roll and got a five. :smallwink: I got the one giving Furious Charge, which actually turned out to be useful.


Not a ton happened. He re-positioned some units in order to get better angles on some of my squads, but the shooting phase was uneventful. I lost one Chosen marine and a grunt from each squad. Nothing I can't afford to lost.

On my turn, I moved the CSM over to the canyon to get a crossfire on anything coming through the canyon. The cultists claimed the backfield objective, the bikes turboboosted forward into cover nearby the Leman Russ, and the Chosen tried to climb over a small rise but ended up getting stuck on it. The backfield CSM squad ran forward, with the Sorcerer detaching and heading for the Chosen while the Lord kept with them. I got Iron Arm off successfully in the Psychic Phase, but peril'ed myself and lost a wound. Not a good sign when your sorcerer is down a wound right off the bat :smallannoyed: One of the plasma marines got a bead on a sentinel and fired, but he missed badly. 2d3 me - 1d3 him.


He continued playing cautiously, re-positioning units rather than playing aggressively. He did send his sentinels in to try and chase off on the CSM squads. The Heavy flamer killed one marine, while the autocannon did jack. He popped smoke (on my advice) and used the Leman Russ to murderize a Chosen. The rest of his dudes were either out of range, out of LOS, or missed. The Veterans moved forward to take a vanguard position on my side of the bridge, though.

On my turn, I moved the lord into position for a charge on the flamer sentinel. The Librarian joined up with the remaining chosen, and got as close as possible to the veterans. The bikes moved forward to the edge of the lava river, just within 11" of the Leman. One of the CSM units stayed back to keep claiming the objective, while the other moved into the canyon. The Sorcerer got off Iron Arm and Smite, killing a couple of Vets with bio-lightning. He and the Chosen rolled an eight for charge distance, which was good enough to get the Vets. Their overwatch failed, and all but two died. The other two ran away (with the Sorc and company catching them), while the infantry squad behind them held steady. The Chaos Lord charged the h. flamer armoured sentinel, and thanks to Furious Charge, he got off three penetrating hits. Bye bye, sentinel. The bikes sucked hard though, having missed the tank.
2d3 + 3 (1 first blood, 2 kill points) me - 1d3 him.


He pumped a lot of dakka at the bikes, but the lack of AP3 really hurt him (as did the T5). One of them died to a grenade launcher, but the Leman Russ did jack diddly squat (rolling lots of ones sucks). My CSM squad in the ravine died to massed lasgun fire, though, so there's that. His autocannon sentinel retreated a little bit, but killed exactly nothing. The bridge squad and the command squad shot at the chosen, killing another one. The remaining two rallied, and the hate train kept rolling when the infantry squad charged me and got splatted for their trouble, with the four or so survivors running for the hills.

The remaining two bikers made a risky play by trying to go through some lava-ridden dangerous terrain to get at the Leman Russ. Their boldness was rewarded by the Chaos Gods when the melta biker (ie the one I needed alive) fell in lava and died. Undeterred, the aspiring biker champ made his morale save like a boss and moved right up to the Leman Russ. If only I'd given him meltabombs. . . sigh. At least the lascannon hw team couldn't see him thanks to the Leman Russ' huge profile. Speaking of which, the Sorcerer and the last two Chosen charged the Leman Russ and the Sorcerer (who once again got Iron Arm off) shoved a power maul up its tailpipe. The Chosen didn't do much, but the sorcerer (now S9 - Chaos Gods I love me some power mauls against guards) hit on all his attacks and solo-ed the Leman Russ like a boss. The lord and his squad engaged the remaining sentinel, dealing a wound and taking a casualty but otherwise not doing much.
2d3+5 (3 KP, First blood, and I had linebreaker now) - 1d3+1


Much to my opponent's frustration, most of his remaining firepower was useless since it was pointed at the lord and his squad who were currently meleeing the sentinel. He sent the flamers to go handle the last biker, which they failed to do, while everyone else patiently waited for the sentinel to finish its thing. Unfortunately for him, it died to meltabombs and went away quietly in his assault phase. The company command squad managed to kill the last two chosen, though, so yay?

The sorcerer, now royally pissed off, got off Iron Arm again and failed to cast Smite, then charged into the building and killed two of the company command squad. I turboed my last biker away to deny the kill point, but he promptly joined his dead brother by falling into lava. This was enough to contest the objective (neither was objective secured). The Chaos lord and his squad charged in and mulched the mortar squad, who promply ran off the board. At this point, we called it, as it was plain he would be tabled the next turn and there was little point in continuing.
2d3+8 - 3 (Final Score: 11 - 3).

Lessons Learned: -MSU are nice on this small of a point scale, but the units are pretty fragile.
-I have no luck whatsoever with dangerous terrain
-Chaos Sorcerers are dope. The Chaos sorcerer more or less singlehandedly demolished a vet squad, an infantry squad and solo-ed a Leman Russ.
-High-volume shooting with no AP sucks when the dice abandon you
-The value of infiltrate alpha strikes depends a great deal on the terrain. Giant rivers of lava tend to make it hard to get chosen and even melta bikers in close.
-Not having long range anti-vehicle in this map was really annoying. Getting the sorcerer in that close was basically luck (thanks again, Iron Arm!).
-Plasma is useless against guard
-Power mauls are awesome against guard

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so i just went to GWs webstore and the New Canonness has the Add to Cart option, it then says that this item isnt available. So i click on her page and it once again says Email Me. So what gives, did they have her and run out again?

I mean the smart thing would be to just get a bunch of Pre Orders going for the second run and then make more than that, letting those that want it, have it.

Edit: Nvm, i just checked my Emails, and she went back up....at 5 Am. **** you GW.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Imperial Agents
Hands of the Emperor

Sisters of Silence and Custodian Guard are not in this book. Their rules are available for free (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Datasheets/Burning%20of%20Prospero%20Imperial%20Datasheets.pd f) from GW's website.
Codex: Militarum Tempestus is also it's own thing.

Imperial Specialists
You're about to notice a theme with the first few Factions of the Imperium. Namely, this specific ruling from the Facebook FAQs might smack you in the brain;


Facebook FAQ
Q: Can you add Ministorum Priests, Primaris Psykers and Enginseers to Formations?
A: No.

If your Guard army is currently full of Formations, and you want to put Regimental Specialists back in, you might notice a few things.

Cult Mechanicus
Enginseer Congregation: This is a Detachment of 1 HQ and 0-1 Elites. Mostly this just means taking the Tech-Priest Enginseer and nothing else. The important thing to note about this Detachment, is that each unit has the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule, which means they slot in perfectly to any Cult Mechanicus army, since units from IA:CM will contribute to the Canticles. Given the points costs of the following units, this is great for spiking the number of units on the board for your Canticles for a minimum points investment.

Tech-Priest Enginseer: 40 Points will get you a Servo-Arm and Power Axe. Oh, and they come with a body attached that does stuff. In perfect copy-paste form, these guys can hand out the Power of the Machine Spirit rule to Astra Militarum Vehicles. See the note at the top of this post for why that might be. Other than that, goose your Canticle count for your Cult Mechanicus army - from the Codex.

Servitors: For 50 Points, add +2 units to your Canticle count. Anyway, yeah. Servitors. They can pick up some expensive Heavy Bolters, or some Multi-Meltas that they can't really use. Or, cheap Plasma Cannons. Which go great if you bring a Detachment that brings a Fortifcation slot, where you can bring some Haemotrope Reactors. So, there you go.

This Detachment is really simple. Add more numbers to boost your Canticles for other Cult Mechanicus units, or, hand out Power of the Machine Spirit to Guard Vehicles. If you aren't doing either of those things; Move along.

Aeronautica Imperialis
Imperial Navy Section: 1 Fast, and 0-1 HQ. Units from this Detachment get to re-roll Reserves. Move along.

Officer of the Fleet: 20 Points to give your opponent -1 to Reserves, or yourself +1 to Reserves. Shame about the Valkyrie tax. Put him somewhere safe. He's only 20 Points, but he is an easy Kill Point.

Valkyrie: This is the mandatory part of the Detachment, and there really isn't a reason to take one unless you really want to spend the extra 20 Points for Reserve manipulation. So, yeah. If you want cheap and reliable Reserve manipulation, you have to pay the Valkyrie tax...That no-one is even allowed to get in. Valkyries aren't even that good of a Flier.

Adeptus Astra Telepathica
Psykana Division: 1 HQ, 0-3 Elites. While the Elites are totally optional, the Primaris Psykers and Astropaths from this Formation manifest on 3+ when standing near 5 or more Wyrdvane Psykers.

Primaris Psyker: An ML2 Psyker for 75 Points. Biomancy and Divination are nice. Pyromancy and Telekinesis you'll never use. More copy-pasting says a Commissar gets to kill you if you Perils in the same unit as them... Astropaths do not have this rule.

Astropath: An ML2 Psyker for 50 Points. But, it is important to note that his statline sucks and he only has one Wound. An Astropath gets access to Divination and Telepathy only. Except that's totally fine, since those are the two best Disciplines in the rulebook. If an Astropath successfully manifests a Power - any Power - you get to re-roll your Reserves next turn. Unlike the Imperial Navy Section, you don't even need to pay a Valkyrie tax. Just 50 Points for an ML2 that rolls on Div and TP. How terrible...

Wyrdvane Psykers: Brotherhood (ML1) for 12 Points per model. They're trash. They can roll on the same Disciplines as the Primaris Psyker. No reason to take Wyrdvanes unless you really, really, really want to be casting on 3s. There you go.

The Adepta Sororitas

Acts of Faith: Make a Leadership test. Do a thing. Except if you fail, you can't ever even do it again. Don't rate any Sisters unit based on their Act of Faith, 'cause they only ever get to do it once, and they can always fail. Similar to 'paying points to miss'. Acts of Faith are nice to have, but, not really important.
Simulacrum Imperialis; If your Act of Faith is legitimately good, you can pay 10 points per unit to do it again.

Shield of Faith: All Sisters' units have Adamantium Will and 6++. Neither of these rules is particularly helpful.

Martydom: If your Warlord dies, all units that have only models with the Act of Faith special rule get to pass all Leadership tests until the end of your next turn. Essentially, the turn after your Warlord dies (specifically, a Canoness or Jacobus), all your Sisters basically get Fearless for a while and automatically pass whatever Act of Faith you want to do for a turn.

Ministorum Delegation: A Priest and an Elite. Everyone in the Detachment gets Shield of Faith. Your Elite choices in this Faction are fairly limited, and most of them don't even benefit from Shield of Faith. But, we'll come back to this when we get to it.

Vestal Task Force: A CAD with a mandatory Elite slot (as above, your Elite choices aren't even that good), also doesn't even come with a Fort or Lord of War slot. While it's rare that you even care about the Fort slot, it's a nice thing to have if you should ever want it. This Detachment gives up Objective Secured to re-roll Saving Throws of '1' for one turn. No. Just no. Run from this Detachment and never look back. Losing Objective Secured is far too terrible a tax for what you get in return.

Warlord Traits
1. Fear. Fear sucks.
2. Your Warlord's unit's Shield of Faith save gets +1. Not your Invulnerable save, just your Save from your SoF rule.
3. Re-roll Deny the Witch. This goes almost great with your Adamantium Will. Unfortunately, you have to remember that all the best Powers don't target your units.
4. Rage is fairly bad for Sisters, since they have Boltguns and why would you ever initiate a Charge. If it was Counter-Attack, I could rate it. But...Nope.
5. All your units use your Warlord's Leadership for Acts of Faith and War Hymns. This is potentially useful.
6. Stubborn aura. Sisters wont be winning combats anytime soon.

This table sucks. Roll on something else.

Ecclesiarchy Relics
The Book of St. Lucius; Basically it's an ATSKNF aura for 5 Points. Not bad. It's 5 Points. What do you want!?
The Litanies of Faith; Re-roll Acts of Faith and War Hymn tests. Not for 15 Points.
The Cloak of St. Aspira; Re-roll Armour Saves and Shield of Faith Saves. It's not like you can pick up 2+ Armour.
The Mace of Valaan; It's a Master-Crafted Power Maul that gives the Ministorum Priest Fleshbane and Armourbane when near a Daemon. Bring Daemonhosts (See; Inquisition).
The Mantle of Ophelia; Eternal Warrior for 25 Points. Yes please. Way better than the other cloak, especially since you're T3 and will be eating Strength 6 all day.
The Blade of Admonition; A Master-Crafted Relic Blade for 30 Points. Ack! :smallyuk:

Adepta Sororitas Tactical Objectives
11. It's Assassinate. Do it again.
12. Make a Shield of Faith or Deny the Witch. Pretty sure you're doing this anyway.
13. Another SecOb. Doing it anyway. Hopefully.
14. Destroy a unit with a Sisters unit. Get D3 if you do it using an Act of Faith. Doing it anyway.
15. Get one of your Sisters Characters killed. Get D3 if a Canoness or Uriah Jacobus gets themselves killed. This almost looks like it can offset Kingslayer, since a Canoness or Jacobus is going to be your Warlord. But, you can always do it with a regular Sisters' Character. In any case, get one of your Characters killed, be rewarded. These Objectives always suck. But, at the end of the day, a VP is a VP.
16. Use a bunch of your Acts of Faith. You may be tempted to blow your load, and use all your Acts of Faith at once for the equivalent of Domination. But, is that really worth it? No-one can make this decision for you, at the table, since only you can know what's going on. Just remember to use your brain. Maybe check your opponent's 'completed pile' so you actually know how many points you need before you tactically hamstring yourself...But, then again, it's not like Acts of Faith are all that useful. Trade all your Acts of Faith for D3+3 VPs. It's probably worth it.

Sisters need Infiltrate off of the Strategic Table, only non-ObSec units can Scout, and Sisters can't Deep Strike at all. There's no 'may' about it; These Objectives aren't really optional, even though the rules say that they are. You should immediately trade the generic 11-16 for the above pretty much every time. You have at least 3 free points within these Objectives, #11 is just Assassinate again, and you should be able to get it, and #15 is certainly a pain in the arse, but it's also a free point because there's no way you'll not be able to get it done - though you probably don't want to go for the Martydom points.

Canoness: *headdesk* 65 Points. Yes, really. Look at that statline, add on Stubborn, AdWill and 6++. Now go look at a Chaos Lord for the same points. Her Act of Faith gives her unit Hatred for a turn. Hatred!? Really? Have you even seen how Chaos Marines will roll you every time? And there's even a possibility that you can fail your Act of Faith. Hatred. Probably. That's your rad special ability. A Rosarius will get you a 4++, and bring you to 100 Points (Remember that a Space Marine Captain is 90 Points and comes with a free Iron Halo). If it's your Warlord throw on the Mantle of Ophelia and go. Except it doesn't matter, because a Canoness isn't a good model.

Ministorum Priest: 25 Points for a model that hands out Zealot and even has a 4+ Invulnerable to avoid being targeted out. In any case, this guy brings another buff to his unit. The model (not the unit) makes a Leadership Test in the Fight Phase and does one of the following; Lets him and his unit re-roll failed Armour and Invulnerables. Gives only himself Smash - kind of pointless unless you're into AP2 pistol whips - or, his entire unit can re-roll To Wound.
The most important feature of the Ministorum Priest is that he can be taken in a Detachment of just himself. For the price of 25 Points, insert the Priest into any Armies of the Imperium army you want, and re-roll your Armour/Invulnerable saves. No tax...Except for the tax that you wont be able to get into Vehicles, and you'll probably be on foot. But, whatever. 25 Points. No tax.

Uriah Jacobus: Jacobus gives the unit he's joined a free Act of Faith of the kind that they already have. It doesn't count as using the unit's AoF for the game. In addition, they automatically pass the test. Like any other Ministorum Priest, Jacobus brings Zealot and War Hymns (Ld 9). His Warlord Trait is #2, meaning that he increases Shield of Faith, which is handy, because 5++ isn't 6++. However, what makes Jacobus so good for the low price of 100 Points, is that he has a Fearless and Counter-Attack aura, for friendly models, not just Sororitas units. He also carries an AP4 Storm Bolter. Because he does. Uriah Jacobus is a very, very strong model for Sororitas, and even comes with the Martydom rule if you want to make him your Warlord over a Canoness...Which you kind of do, unless you desperately want #3 from Strategic...Which you kind of do.
Does Uriah Jacobus count as a Ministorum Priest for the purposes of the Ministorum Delegation Detachment, since he obviously counts as a Priest in the Battle Conclave?

Battle Sisters: Veteran humans in Power Armour with Boltguns. Their Act of Faith gives them Preferred Enemy in the Shooting or Assault Phase. That's... Not terrible. Also, Battle Sisters come in minimum squads of 5 and can take both Special and Heavy weapons in minimum squads... If only they had access to Drop Pods. Anyway, Meltagun, Combi-Melta and Heavy Flamer in a Rhino isn't totally unheard of. But, at the end of the day, it's really hard to screw up Power Armour & Boltguns, and, given that their options are so limited, there's not a lot you can do - options-wise - that will really screw them up. Just stand somewhere good and shoot Boltguns at the problem.

Uriah Jacobus likes hanging around with Battle Sisters, since he gives them a 5++ from Shield of Faith and just put an ObSec unit wherever you want and try not to die. Ever seen Necron Warriors hold an Objective for three turns? Yeah. Try and do that.

Repentia Squad: Fearless, Fleet, Rage and they all carry Eviscerators for 14 Points per model. They're basically Eviscerators with bodies attached. Unfortunately, they don't have any Armour Save at all, and their FNP comes from an AoF, which means that they only get FNP for one turn, and they can possibly not get it. The only thing keeping these girls alive is their 6+ Shield of Faith. There aren't too many people who like these ugly as sin models, but, even if you did, the unit still is fairly terrible.

Sororitas Command Squad: 65 Points for Celestians with Stubborn. Wait. What? Aren't Celestians 70 Points, base, and worse? Whatever. Never take Celestians. But we'll get to them. The SCS can grab FNP for 10 Points (Everyone else pays 15! And an SCS is already undercosted!), and you can also grab a Dialogus for 5 Points, which works like a Vox-Caster, letting Sisters' units within range re-roll their Acts of Faith. But, the real bonus of the Dialogus is her access to Relics; Specfically, The Book of St. Lucius. A Dialogus may as well cost 10 Points, not 5. The Dialogus, for 10 Points, effectively replaces the SCS' Standards options, and the Blessed Standard costs 15 Points and is less good than The Book of St. Lucius. All your Celestians can grab Ranged, Special and Melee weapons. Except Power Weapons Axes still cost 15 Points each and your Invulnerable save isn't good enough for that. If you're taking the Sororitas Command Squad, take it for the Dialogus, and still end up equivalent to Celestians, except you also have FNP. A Command Squad's Act of Faith is basically meaningless. Never use this unit's Act of Faith, you'll never need it (unless you do), and it's the perfect Act of Faith to 'save' for, for when you draw your #16 Objective and want a free VP.

Arco-Flagellants: WS5, S5 and four attacks. Unfortunately, they're only I3 and don't have Grenades. Unlike Repentia, they do have FNP all the time. Unfortunately, they don't have Shield of Faith for that free 6++. Luckily, a Ministorum Delegation would hand out SoF to all units in the Detachment for free. Arco-Flagellants aren't the best units to put in a Delegation, but, the correct term might be 'least wasteful'.

Crusaders: A 15 Point Storm Shield...That also comes with a dude and Power Sword attached to it. Crusaders are an entire unit of Storm Shields, and they're dirt cheap. Their 'natural' 5+ Armour Save means that they don't even die to Grav, either. A very strong unit, for 150 Points, they're essentially a steal. With a 25 Point Priest tax (giving Zealot and re-roll Invulnerable Saves), these guys can be slotted into any Armies of the Imperium army you want. At 175 Points - including tax - these guys will not break the bank, and actually put a solid line of models on the board.

Death Cult Assassins: A Power Sword...With another Power Sword, 5++ and a babe attached. They have 3 attacks each with Power Swords at I6...Except no Grenades. For a Ministorum Detachment, Crusaders are so much better that it's not even really funny. For everything else...Well...Sisters of Silence exist...They don't have as many attacks, but they are AP2. Why are Death Cult Assassins even good? Well, Crusaders do only have one attack each.

Celestian Squad: 70 Points for Veterans that can't even take extra Special Weapons. Don't have FNP. Don't have access to Relics, and their AoF is Furious Charge which does not mesh well with Boltguns and would be really good on a unit, that, could say...Take more Melee weapons. Whatever. Celestians suck. If you want MSU Celestians, make them a Command Squad and give them FNP. If you want more than 5 Celestians, make them Battle Sisters, giving them Objective Secured and an Act of Faith that is actually usable. This unit has another Act of Faith that you 'wait to burn' on Objective #16.

Dominion Squad: They have Scout and their Act of Faith is Ignores Cover, and they can take four Special Weapons (read; Meltaguns). Although remember how many Fire Points your Vehicle has, and it may be worth not taking max Special Weapons and putting the 20 Points towards something else, like another unit. It's entirely possible to run three units of Dominions - in a CAD - with 'only' two Meltaguns each, firing out of a Rhino. Make sure to pick up a Simulacrum so you can use Ignores Cover twice. Once during Night Fighting, and another time for when your opponent pops their Smoke Launchers. One of the best units in the Faction. However, that's not really saying much... Have you read the other entries? But, really, in any other book, Scout and Ignores Cover on the same unit is very strong. Dominions are just a strong unit.

Seraphim Squad: You saw how good Dominions were, right? You Canoness can't even take a Jump Pack. What role does this unit even serve? A Jump Infantry unit with Ranged weapons, isn't every unit in the game like that, basically terrible because that's not what you take Jump Infantry for? (inb4; Death Company with Boltguns) These ladies can re-roll their Shield of Faith, and that's...Not bad. But, Hand Flamers are AP6 (i.e; Nothing) and two Inferno Pistols cost as much as three Meltaguns - say, on Dominons - which have better range and not attached to a bad unit. Seraphims' Act of Faith is Shred in the Shooting phase. Just...No. Jump Infantry shouldn't shoot. That's why they get to re-roll their Charges.

Sororitas Rhino: It's a 40 Point Rhino with a 6++ and AdWill. That's why it costs an extra 5 Points. They can grab Laud Hailers, but that's about it.

Immolator: It's a Razorback! With a Fire Point! Instead of 55 Points (still overpriced), it costs 60! Thanks to 6++ and AdWill. The Twin-Linked Multi-Melta for free is nice, and one of the things that Space Marines can't actually get. The single Fire Point is a nice touch. But, mostly the idea is to put Dominions inside one, Scout, and get the Multi-Melta in range on Turn 0. Providing that your opponents don't bring their own Scout-blockers.

Retributors: 'Devastators' with access to Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers and Multi-Meltas. Their Act of Faith is Rending, which works amazingly on Heavy Bolters and you should absolutely remember to bring a Simulacrum to make sure that you can do it twice. Even if you never, ever get in it, you can always bring an Immolator as a Dedicated Transport just to drive around with.

Exorcist: AV13 on the front, which is great. Means that someone spamming S6 (*cough, cough*) wont be able to hurt you, unless they potentially open themselves up for some hurt. An Exorcist throws out D6, S8, AP1 attacks, and that's pretty good. Unfortunately, D6s are still random and if you roll <3 you'll probably be pretty underwhelmed with their 125 points cost. So take two! Three! It puts more AV13 on the board to make your opponent sad, and gives you more AP1 Missiles. Similar to a Vindicator, an Exorcist only has one weapon on board, and a simple #5 on the Damage Table can brick the Tank immediately. For 5 Points, you can pick up a Storm Bolter that you will rarely ever fire, ever. But it will give you a 50% chance to avoid bricking.

Penitent Engines: NOPE.

A Priest or Jacobus and Arco-Flagellants, Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins. All models in the Formation gain Shield of Faith...So, again, Arco-Flagellants get what it says on the tin, and Crusanders and DCAs only pick up AdWill. But that doesn't matter because all models in the Formation must form a single unit (However, it does not say that the Priest/Jacobus can't ever leave the unit if they feel like it). The Priest/Jacobus in the middle will have War Hymns, giving you re-rolls to your Invulnerables in Melee. If you're going to go heavy on Arco-Flagellants, you must bring Uriah Jacobus, and he'll give +1 to your Shield of Faith saves, and AFs are the only ones that really, really need it. A Priest will also hand out Zealot which all the Ministorum units benefit from.

This Formation is potentially just Jacobus and 30 Ministorum models, and will eat any non-2+ Armoured unit for breakfast, and will lose hard to Vehicles/Walkers. It's an extremely strong 'gimmick' unit, but will fall apart to any opponent who sees their glaring and totally obvious weakness; That is, Power Swords only, no Grenades. Final Destination.

The Deathwatch
Spoiler Warning; If you want this book for Deathwatch, don't. Get the real Codex, instead of this watered down Detachment.

Non-Vehicles in the Formation re-roll 1s To Wound and Pen. It's a Formation that consists of exactly one unit. Remembering that Veterans have the Combat Squads rule, which means if you take 10 models, you can have two units of five.

Veterans: Any Veteran can take Melee Weapons at their full cost. Do not do this. Next.
Any Veteran can take Ranged or Special Weapons. This is especially strong, with Combi-Weapons and SIA. However, these particular Deatchwatch do not have access to Drop Pods. This means that Meltaguns will barely work, you'll be moving a whole bunch, which means Grav doesn't get to Salvo properly so what's even the point? Deathwatch do get Mission Tactics, which allows them to re-roll 1s against certain unit Roles, which quite amazingly, means that Combi-Plasmas actually almost kind of work! Who'd a thunk? However, since you don't have Drop Pods - or Rhinos - you probably wont be moving much, if at all...Even though you don't even have Objective Secured and probably hate standing still. Whatever. Standing still doing nothing generally means taking Stalker Pattern Boltguns which are actually quite effective (it's just that 'real' Deathwatch never use them, because they get Drop Pods).

Deathwatch Frag Cannons aren't as good here, like you've been told. Since, again, without Drop Pods, you aren't going to start the game in that magical 12" range that turns Frag Cannons into 2-shot Lascannons. You're almost better off with Infernus Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers - I know! Right!?

A Veteran may replace both of his weapons for a Heavy Thunder Hammer; S10 (not x2, or +6, always S10), and 6s To Wound causes Instant Death. Is a Heavy Thunder Hammer worth 30 Points? Almost certainly. Are two HTHs worth 60 Points? Almost certainly not.

Black Shields have the Atonement Through Honour special rule, which gives them double their Attacks against an IC, MC or Vehicle (Remember that Gargantuans follow all the rules for MCs), or anytime that Rampage would proc. BSs aren't worth it, they're a Melee model in what is demonstrably a shooty unit.

Deathwatch Veterans can take a Flier - Corvus Blackstar - as a Dedicated Transport.

Corvus Blackstar: 12/12/11 with Ceramite Plating. Twin-Linked Assault Cannon on the front, and unlimited Bombs! You can swap the Assault Cannon for a Lascannon (don't), and you can its four Stormstrike Missiles for a weak Missile Launcher (don't). For 5 Points, a Blackstar can re-roll Jink saves, for 10 Points, it can have Strafing Run. Not a bad Flyer for 180 Points. Oh, right. It also carries 12 models for some reason...But no-one cares because Flying Transports are not things.

I didn't even know it was possible to make Deathwatch even more boring. But they actually did it! The absolute madmen. Hahahahahahaha!

The Grey Knights
Spoiler Warning; If you want this book for Grey Knights, don't. Get the real Codex, instead of this watered down Detachment.

One Troops, one Fast, Heavy optional. Models from this Detachment may make Reserve rolls on Turn 1 if they're in Deep Strike. On the turn they show up, they can Run and Shoot in the same phase. This Detachment is decent. Mostly because the units that make it up are actually fairly solid and actually fit fairly well into any Army of the Imperium.

Terminators: Psycannon or Incinerator for Heavy weapon - you're Relentless, Salvo does nothing! Each model comes with a Force Sword as standard, and each model can be upgrade to S5 for 2 points each. Alternatively, they can all have Daemon Hammers, which are Force Hammers, that when Force is up re-roll To Wound and Pen against Daemons - even though Grey Knights have Preferred Enemy (Daemons) and nearly always wounding on 2s and will be re-rolling 1s anyway, without having to use Force. Whatever. Terminators also know Banishment and Hammerhand. Banishment is garbage, but Hammerhand will make you S7 with Halberds, or S10 with Hammers and you'll be killing basically everything so long as you can survive to make it into Melee.

Interceptor Squad: Another mandatory choice for the Strike Force. Fortunately, they're not as expensive as Terminators, and thanks to being Jump Infantry with the ability to move 30" once per game, it's not like they need to Deep Strike with the Detachment - unlike the Terminators. Also unlike the Terminators, they aren't Relentless, so Salvo hurts more than it helps, because you're Jump Infantry. With that in mind, Incinerators are very good because you can close the distance reasonably quickly - especially with that 30" shunt. Again, Terminators have 2+ Saves and natural Invulnerables, Interceptors don't. They actually may not survive to I1, so it isn't a good idea at all to gives them all Hammers. A few Halberds and one Hammer - plus Melta Bombs - will do fine.

Nemesis Dreadknight: The first optional part of the Detachment is a really strong option; T6, 4 Wounds, 2+/5++ (of course, that 2+ means it dies real fast to Grav). Nemesis Dreadknights carry Sanctuary as standard, so it's not impossible to make it so your Dreadknight's Invulnerable save is nearly always 4+. The Personal Teleporter is basically mandatory. However, after that, you start pretending to be a Tyranid Flyrant...That doesn't Fly (that's what your 2+/5++ is for!). x2 Heavy Incinerators will make a lot of units pretty sad at a reasonable points cost. While double Psycannons will throw out 12, S7 AP4 shots with Rending. Dreadknights are great.

Land Raider: Only if you bring three. Which you can't. Because that's not how this Detachment works.
Land Raider Crusader: Like a normal Land Raider, except not as good.
Land Raider Redeemer: AP3 Ignores Cover is pretty good. Unfortunately you have to survive longer than one Turn to make it. Except you can't even bring three. Did you read the part of the Formation that lets you Deep Strike on Turn 1? Why did you even bring a Land Raider? What are you even doing?

Terminators & Dreadknights is what makes Grey Knights playable in their actual book. The not!Nemesis Strike Force is also entirely reasonable. The only thing that this particular Detachment is missing is the ML4 Librarian throwing out Vortex of Doom, which actually is kind of important. This Detachment is far from bad, it's got all the parts that make Grey Knights work. Except you can actually make Grey Knights work by buying the real Codex. You simply trade your Interceptor 'tax' for a Librarian tax ('Librarian tax' is an oxymoron), and then you also gain Objective Secured...Or, at least even more Librarians.

Interceptors are not bad. But Librarians are just so much better. The only reason to use this particular Detachment is if you don't already have the Grey Knights' Codex...Aaand the Deathwatch Detachment kind of makes now.

Legion of the Damned

1-4 Elite slots. This Detachment must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. You get to choose what Turn they come onto the board (not Turn 1), no rolling required.

Damned Legionnaires: Fearless and Slow & Purposeful, come stock with a 3+ Invulnerable save, and when they Deep Strike, they can re-roll Scatter. All ranged attacks made by the Damned have the Ignores Cover rule, and they have access to Plasma and Melta Heavy and Special weapons, combined with their Slow & Purposeful rule, the Damned are actually fairly reasonable at 25 points per model. It's not that Damned Legionnaires are bad by any means. The problem is that for Armies of the Imperium, 125 Points goes a long way on things that don't have to start the game in Deep Strike Reserve.
Remember your 10th Company Scout Bikes, and how Locator Beacons work! 'Armies of the Imperium is the best special rule in the game'.

Officio Assassinorum

Assassins come in Detachments by themselves. If you get Slay the Warlord using an Assassin, get another VP for it. More VPs equals more winning.

Vindicare Assassin: The most expensive Assassin of the bunch, that also has a 'Free First Blood' sign on his head. Is it telling that the most expensive Assassin also happens to be the worst one?

Callidus Assassin: She can set up anywhere on the board 1" away from enemy models (she has an AP2 Template weapon). On the first game turn, or the game turn on which she arrives, she can only be Snap Snot at. If you're going second, it's preferable to Infiltrate her, since 'the Turn she arrives' may well be the Bottom of Turn 2, when it's your opponent's turn, it is now the Top of Turn 3, and your Callidus can be shot at freely. Anyway, the Callidus lets you re-roll to Seize (so maybe you're not going second after all?), and forces your opponent a -3 penalty on their first Reserve roll, which can be punishing if your opponent only has one or two Reserve units. The aforementioned AP2 Template is strong. She also has an AP2 sword that ignores Invulnerable saves on a '6' To Wound, and against Monstrous Creatures she can opt for Poisoned (3+), Rending attacks. She's good.

Eversor Assassin: A fun guy who is devastating on the Charge with his Furious Charge and Power Sword with 8 attacks and a 3D6" Charge range. Important; Infiltrating is totally optional, and when you do it, you don't get to Charge. This is why 'defensive Eversors' are things that exist. Deploy your Eversor normally. It's only one model. You should be able to deploy it out of LoS. Since you're a competitive player, you're playing against competitive opponents, right? Your opponents will Infiltrate and/or Scout at you, and if you're playing against Space Marines (which is nearly all the time, right?) they will be throwing Drop Pods at you. Not including armies with units that Move 12" and will try to get in your face anyway. That's when you yell SURPRISE! on your Turn 1, and 'defensive Eversor' their face off. When they say that you can't Charge from Infiltrate...Well, you didn't. Because Infiltrating is optional, and actually bad for the Assassin that actually wants to Charge on Turn 1.

Culexus Assassin: It's debatable on whether the Culexus or the Callidus is the best Assassin. But, really, they just do different things. All of a Culexus' Melee attacks are AP2, and cause Instant Death on a Wound of '6', and cause Instant Death always against Psyker models (and everyone has Psykers somewhere in their army, because Psykers are for winners). The Culexus also has a S5, AP1 ranged attack that gets better the more Psykers that there are around it (that aren't in Vehicles). The Culexus also happens to be permanently not!Invisible, and carries Psyk-Out Greandes. A Culexus Assassin kills Psykers dead. But it's also pretty good against everything else, too. Since it has an AP1 ranged weapon, and AP2 Melee weapons and can't be shot at right.

Execution Force
One of all the Assassins - including the Vindicare tax. In return for the Vindicare tax, all your Assassins get Preferred Enemy (Warlords), which goes great with the fact that you get +1 VP if you kill a Warlord with an Assassin. Unfortunately, you just don't need more than 2 Assassins, and you're even better off with two Assassins of the same type (Callidus or Culexus) than one of each. This Formation isn't good. Just run one or two individual Assassins and spend the other ~280 Points on things that are actually good and buff the rest of your army.

The Inquisition

Inquisitorial Representative: 1 Inquisitor, and <3 Elite slots. Each Inquisitor gets a Warlord Trait, even when he's not your Warlord. Like many things in the Imperial Agents book, Inquisitors come tax-less, and providing you aren't in a meta that arbitrarily limits the number of Detachments you can take, you can actually take as many Inquisitors as you want - they're pretty cheap - and every single one of them gets a Warlord Trait. Rad. Roll for Orbital Strike!

Warlord Traits
1. Choose to pass or fail any Morale checks. This is very strong. Throw this Inquisitor into pretty much any unit you want. Become better-than-Fearless.
2. 2 dice best pick the one you want, for Reserves, Outflank and Mysterious Objectives. Like Scrier's Gaze, except not quite as good because it misses out free Discarding and free redrawing of Tactical Objectives.
3. Orbital Strike that always Scatters the full 2D6". Or, you can not, and just roll a 'Hit'. 33% of the time it works every time.

"When generating Warlord Traits for a Warlord with the Inquisition Faction, you can roll on the appropriate table presented here..."
Wait. Stop. Who decides what is 'appropriate'? You? Your opponent? What if you bring an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor but your opponent is playing Daemons? Who gets to decide what counts as 'appropriate'?

Ordo Malleus
4. Preferred Enemy (Daemons) might be strong.
5. 12" Banishment aura up all the time.
6. If Psyker, +1 Warp Charge. If not a Psyker, AdWill. Ugh.

Ordo Hereticus
4. Preferred Enemy (Psykers). Psykers are always around.
5. AdWill. Similar to Fear it may as well be nothing...Until it isn't.
6. Enemy Infiltrators can't set up within 24" of the Warlord. Awesome.

Ordo Xenos
4. Preferred Enemy (Non-Vehicle Xenos). Winner. PE is passed to squads. Make sure to punish Eldar real hard.
5. Gain a 6++, +1 Strength and Rending. Hey, that's not terrible.
6. Hatred. Ugh.

Remember, every single Inquisitor you take gets a Warlord Trait. Spam those rolls.

Inquisitorial Relics
The Grimoire of True Names; For 5 Points, when you Challenge a Daemon, shaft them. This is great against Monstrous Creatures, that is, against single models that aren't allowed to refuse Challenges, and, since there are no other models in the unit, the rest of your models get to smash the Daemon's head in before they even get to attack. "Hey you! Come fight me! ...Just kidding. Get 'im boys." 5 Points is pretty good. But only if you know you're playing Daemons, 'cause it doesn't work against anyone else.
The Liber Heresius; Get a special rule per turn on a Leadership test. None of them are really good, except for the one rule that totally is; Scout. For 15 Points.
The Tome of Vethric; Looks good. Isn't. The only Xenos races you're ever really going to play against are Eldar and Necrons. Against Eldar, Split Fire does nothing. Against Necrons, well, current Necrons don't even like Vehicles, so Tank Hunters does nothing either.
Also, FFS. Can anyone guess how effective Monster Hunter is against Genestealer Cults? No. Really. Someone tell me how many Monstrous Creatures are in that Codex. Genestealer Cults is a new Codex, so I know this isn't a copy-paste job, because someone had to go into the file to write the words 'Genestealer Cults' on the page. Unfortunately, whoever did it is super lazy, and doesn't seem to know that Monster Hunter does nothing vs. GCs.

Inquisitor Coteaz: Master-Crafted Daemon Hammer, Artificer Armour and Psyber-Eagle. He's also ML2 and can roll on Divination and Telepathy. He's an ML2 Psyker in Artifcer Armour. He's already 100 Points, right? WRONG. He also has a fixed Warlord Trait (PE [Daemons]). But, his main bonuses aren't even written yet;
He has unlimited Interceptor within a 12" range. There is no limit to amount of times that Coteaz's unit can Interceptor in the same turn. Even when Coteaz does his not!Interceptor, his unit doesn't lose their next turn's Shooting attacks.


Facebook FAQ
Q: If a unit that is embarked in a Transport arrives from Reserves within 12" of Inquisitor Coteaz and then disembarks, can I use the I’ve Been Expecting You special rule to shoot both the unit and its Transport, or can I only shoot the Transport?
A: You can shoot both. Shoot the Transport as soon as it arrives from Reserves and shoot the unit as soon as it disembarks (if it does so within 12" of Coteaz, and within his line of sight).

Q: Regarding Inquisitor Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule – if you destroy a Transport, can you shoot at the unit that was inside as well?
A: Yes, if the unit is placed within 12" of Coteaz when they perform their emergency disembarkation.

...Yeah. Shoot the Drop Pod and the unit that comes out.
We're not even finished. Coteaz is still better than that. Second, he can re-roll Seize the Initiative, or, can make your opponent re-roll their successful Seize. Already you're making sure that you go first. Third, all Non-Vehicles in a Detachment that includes Coteaz gain Objective Secured. So, you don't really want to min-max with Coteaz and taking just Coteaz, since he really likes hanging out with friends.

Inquisitor Karamazov: Karamazov is basically a Dreadnought that can join units. He's got a Multi-Melta and S5 Power Sword and throws an Orbital Strike that doesn't Scatter if you target your own units...In combat. He has Preferred Enemy (Psykers) and that's a nice rule to pass to squads. But, unfortunately, his gimmick isn't even that good, and he's 200 Points. Just...No.

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: Daemonblades are bad, Hellrifles are worse. Incinerators are sweet, and Daemon Hammers aren't good...Yet. Psybolts are bad because why do you even have a Bolt weapon? Empyrean Brain Mines are phenomenal when combined with The Grimoire of True Names. Issue Challange. Single model can't Refuse. Model immediately takes -5 Initative, and then has to take an Initiative test or can't attack at all. Many areas rule that Stomping counts as attacking. A Brain Mined model can't Stomp. Awesome. Power Armour basically costs nothing. But, the real reason to take a Malleus Inquisitor is for Terminator Armour and Daemon Hammer. Now that you're in Terminator Armour, you can pick up a Psycannon. Psyker-ing is neat for 30 Points, and then you get a Force Sword for free. Use the Force Sword when you don't think you'll die and AP3 is useful. Use the Hammer when it doesn't matter and AP2 is better.

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor: Null Rods mean you can't be targeted by Psychic Powers, it's also AP3 and causes Instant Death to Psykers. Power Armour costs nothing. A Psyocculum gives the Inquisitor's unit BS10 when shooting at a unit with a Psyker in it (which is all the time, right?). If you didn't bring the Null Rod, pick up a Mastery Level and free Force Sword.

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor: Conversion Beamers are great. If you want to Melee, Rad Grenades are also good, and Psychotroke Grenades read "On a 2+, win combat." If you're relying on 2+ Armour a lot, Ulumeathi Plasma Syphons cause every weapon with the word 'Plasma' in its name to be BS1, so that's really good. Unfortunately, does nothing against the current major source of AP2 - Grav. Power Armour costs nothing and Psyker Levels are always handy.

Acolytes: Acolytes are 4 points per model with a human statline. One of them can be upgraded to a Locator Beacon. But given that Acolytes don't Infiltrate or Scout or move very fast, there's not much point. Let's go over some Acolyte builds;
Boltgun & Carapace/Power Armour - 7/10 Points; It's not terrible. Just remember that you are not Space Marines. But, it's hard to screw up 4+ Armour and Boltguns.
Hot-Shot Lasgun & Carapace Armour - 10 Points; No. This is actually bad. Go to Militarum Tempestus. Get BS4 and Orders for basically nothing.
Mostly though, the best option is actually Storm Bolters.

Three Acolytes in your unit get access to good stuff; Melee Weapons are bad, because you're humans paying full price for Melee weapons. Ranged Weapons are nothing. What you're really looking at, is the Special Weapons and Wargear; Flamers are 10 Points for no reason. But, you know what else is 10 Points? Plasma Guns. Discounted Plasma Guns, and Power Armour that costs close to nothing.
Power Armour, Plasma Gun - 19 Points
If you can Twin-Link 'em somehow, or at least re-roll 1s through Preferred Enemy, this is really solid for <20 Points per model.

Another option is;
Storm Bolter, Storm Shield - 22 Points

But at that point you're better off using one of those Ministorum Battle Conclaves full of Crusaders (minimum unit size, x6), and then just throwing in a single Inquisitor for Divination or something. But, enough of that. Acolytes can also take the following Transports as Dedicated Transports from this book;
- Chimera
- Soritas Rhino (Adepta Sororitas)
- any Land Raider (Grey Knights)
- Valkyries (Aeronautica)

Remembering that on Page 120 of the rulebook, a Dedicated Transport gains the Faction of the unit that it was bought for. There are just no other instances in the entire game where a unit has an option of taking a Transport outside its own Faction. This is (currently) the only instance of this rule ever coming up, and that's why you don't know about it, because you've literally never needed to know the rule until reading this.

Daemonhost: You get one. It sucks.
Jokaero Weaponsmith: You get one. It sucks. It has a huge 'Free First Blood' sign on its head.

What?
Chimera: It says 'Heavy Support', but given that the Inquisitorial Representative has no provisions for Heavy Support slots, the only way you can run one is as a Dedicated Transport. So why is it Heavy Support if you can't even use it that way? Anyway, it's a Chimera. It's an AV12 Transport with several Fire Points (2 + Lasgun Arrays) and is a source of Heavy Flamers. If you're only going to focus on the two Fire Points in the back of the Chimera, a Rhino is cheaper and does basically the same thing, and comes with a 6++. You'll just lose the Heavy Flamer on the front and/or top.

The ultimate Formation in the entire book, and the culmination of everything you've just read.
- 1 Inquisitor. With this much stuff in the Formation, you're going to want Coteaz to make it all ObSec.

The rest of the Formation must form a single unit, like a Kill Team.
x1 unit of Acolytes
The rest is optional
- Ministorum Priests (Adepta Sororitas)
- Crusaders (Adepta Sororitas)
- Daemonhosts (Inquisition)
- Arco-Flagellents (Adepta Sororitas)
- Death Cult Assassins (Adepta Sororitas)
- Tech-Priest Enginseer (Cult Mechanicus)
- Jokaero (Inquisition)
- Astropath (Adeptus Astra Telepathica)
Since all of these models form a single unit with the Acolytes, they can all jump in a Chimera if you've left room for them. Which you should have.

Additionally, you get access to one other unit depending on what Ordo you are;
Malleus/Coteaz; Grey Knight Terminators. Remembering that all non-Vehicles in a Detachment with Coteaz are Objective Secured.
Hereticus/Karamazov; Battle Sisters
Xenos; Deathwatch Veterans
...These 'extra' units do not have to form a single unit with the rest of the Formation. They have better things to do.

Since the entire Formation is effectively optional, the only thing you really read, in that huge list of units is;
x1 Inquisitor and x1 unit of Acolytes gives you the option of one 'extra' unit in the Detachment depending on Ordo. There's really no reason to do this unless your meta arbitrarily restricts the number of Detachments you can have in one army.

[Blackhawk748]

Cheese, Acts of Faith now last until the End of Turn, which probably means that Battle Sisters get Preferred Enemy in both phases. Nice guide though

[DaedalusMkV]

Nemesis Dreadknight: The first optional part of the Detachment is a really strong option; T6, 4 Wounds, 2+/5++ (of course, that 2+ means it dies real fast to Grav). Nemesis Dreadknights carry Sanctuary as standard, so it's not impossible to make it so your Dreadknight's Invulnerable save is nearly always 4+. The Personal Teleporter is basically mandatory. However, after that, you start pretending to be a Tyranid Flyrant...That doesn't Fly (that's what your 2+/5++ is for!). x2 Heavy Incinerators will make a lot of units pretty sad at a reasonable points cost. While double Psycannons will throw out 12, S7 AP4 shots with Rending. Dreadknights are great.

You should probably read the rules, Cheese. Dreadknights are not allowed to take two of the same weapon.

[Blackhawk748]

I look at those Dreadknights and i keep going "I should just use those rules for my Penitent Engines" Which then makes me think of ways to make Sisters in Terminator armor for my Terminators

[Bobby Baratheon]

Hey not to derail the conversation, but did anyone get a chance to look at my updated list a page or so back?

I'll repost it here for convenience. Also, I really do appreciate the feedback you guys give. The combination of playing games in my FLGS and following these threads have really helped me understand the game better and get a clearer idea of what works well and what doesn't.

After reviewing your suggestions and doing some tinkering, here is my anti-Word Bearers (which got confirmed) list. I know for a fact the guy doesn't have many daemon models, so unless he's proxying or borrowing the summoning shouldn't be too bad.


Lion's Blade Strike Force

Demi-Company
155 - Company Master Absalom (W) w/ combi-plasma, artificer armor, relic blade, Shroud of Heroes

130 - Tactical Squad (x5) w/ meltagun, combi-melta, meltabombs, and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) w/ meltagun, combi-melta, meltabombs, and Drop Pod
130 - Tactical Squad (x5) w/ meltagun, combi-melta, meltabombs, and Drop Pod

180 - Assault Squad (x5) w/ x2 flamers, Power Weapon, combi-grav, Razorback (las/plas)

185 - Devastator Squad (x5) w/ x2 Grav Cannons, Rhino

Ravenwing Attack Squadron
55 - Landspeeder (x1) w/ x2 heavy bolters
185 - Ravenwing Bike Squadron (x3) w/ Plasmaguns x2, meltabombs, Attack Bike w/ multimelta

Deathwing Redemption Force
115 - Librarian Malachias w/ Terminator Armor, ML2

225 - Deathwing Terminators (x5) w/ Chainfist, Assault Cannon
230 - Deathwing Terminators (x5) w/ TH/SS (x3), Lightning Claws (x2)

Dark Angels CAD
65 - Librarian Gideon (ML1)
78 - Scouts (x5) w/ combi-grav, heavy bolter w/ hellfire shells
78 - Scouts (x5) w/ combi-grav, heavy bolter w/ hellfire shells
78 - Scouts (x5) w/ combi-grav, heavy bolter w/ hellfire shells

Total: 1999

Deployment Strategy: Scouts infiltrate as close as possible, Deathwing decides to come in on turn two, Ravenwing Attack Squadron scouts forward.

Turn 1 Strategy: Drop pods come down, Ravenwing goes forward, scouts contribute to turn one attack by annoying closest enemies and punching above their weight/serving as a distraction. If they get ignored, well hey they have Objective Secured.

Turn 2 Strategy: Deathwing come in within 12" of Ravenwing squad, and proceed to annihilate some chumps. Ravenwing goes off to mulch some infantry or pop some tanks or whatever tickles their fancy. Other Drop Pod comes down, either on vehicle or on backfield objective. Devastators go camp an objective and sit in their Rhino.

Notes: The ML1 librarian probably deploys with the Devs to give them prescience, or wherever else he might be needed. ML2 librarian goes with the knock-off DW knights, either rolling on Librarius, Biomancy or Fulmination. Fulmination hoping to get the switcheroo power, Librarius/Biomancy hoping for the buffs. There's lots of Objective secured in this list. I'm kind of expecting him to go with a mechanized list of CSM in Rhinos with some psyker back up and a bunch of cultists (hence the double flamers and hell fire shells). I wanted to squeeze in some Deathwing Knights, but there just weren't points for it unless I cut out the Ravenwing. I guess I could ditch the scout CAD, but I'm interested to see how that works in practice.

This is IMO a lot better than the other list I had. Thoughts?

EDIT: I suppose I could just swap out the Redemption force for the Deathwing Strike Force, but I'd miss out on Preferred Enemy (CSM) and Supreme Fire Discipline.

EDIT: With regards to the Imperial Agents book, is it official that it supersedes existing rules or not? I kind of like my Inquisition mini-dex and don't really want to buy a new book. I've heard it both ways, so I thought I'd get you guys' take.

[Blackhawk748]

EDIT: With regards to the Imperial Agents book, is it official that it supersedes existing rules or not? I kind of like my Inquisition mini-dex and don't really want to buy a new book. I've heard it both ways, so I thought I'd get you guys' take.

All i can say is that it doesnt for the Sisters, unsure about the Inquisition, but it would be kinda stupid since a new Edition is coming out in spring.

Anyway i got bored so heres a Sisters list with Grey Knights Ultra Veteran Sisters



Sisters of Battle, CAD
HQ
(W) Uriah Jacobus - 100 Points

Troops
Battle Sisters (x5); Flamer, Heavy Flamer in Immolater w/ TL Heavy Flamer - 135 Points
Battle Sisters (x6); Flamer, Heavy Flamer in Immolater w/ TL Heavy Flamer - 159 Points

Fast Attack
Dominions (x6) - 203 Points
Simulacrum Imperialis, x4 Meltaguns
+ Multi-Melta Immolator; Storm Bolter, Laud Hailer

Dominions (x6) - 203 Points
Simulacrum Imperialis, x4 Meltaguns
+ Multi Melta Immolator; Storm Bolter, Laud Hailer

Heavy Support
Exorcist - 135 Points
Exorcist - 135 Points


Daemonhunter Strikeforce
Troops
Grey Knights Terminators (x10) w/ x2 Psycannons and Melta Bombs-375

Fast Attack
Interceptors (x7) x1 Incinerator, x5 Force Halberds, x1 Force Hammer, Metla Bombs-218

Heavy Support
Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Gattling Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon and Personal Teleporter-215


Total: 1832 Points


The Termis will probably get Combat Squaded and are here to just provide heavy fire support, the Interceptors are gonna be Interceptors and Dreadknight gonna Dreadknight. Basically the Daemonhunters Strikforce Adeptus Sororitas Super Elites will kill stuff for me, while the battle Sisters go nab Objectives and the Dominions murderate vehicles.

[Drasius]

Not sure how many people here follow GW and their goings on, but they had their first live stream twitchTV ... thing happen the other day. I didn't watch because a) I wasn't awak and b ) I'm too much of an old man to keep up with this new fandangled streaming thing c) I live in australia, the place where the internet goes to die, so streaming isn't a thing for those of us who live outside the capital cities or major population zones.

Regardless, one of their games did grab my attention, doubly so after I heard the result. I'll post the list and get those of you who don't already know the result to try and guess what happened before you open the spoiler to find out.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Game-2-List-web2.jpg


Thousand Sons are tabled by turn 3, surprising absolutely nobody since that's roughly the same result this matchup has had for the last 4 years or more. Magnus died to a failed helfrost check of all things like a chump and had virtually 0 impact on the game during the 2 turns he was alive. The Sons player wasted all of his warp charge casting blessings on his units and then had nothing left for witchfires that he so desperately needed since his list has absolutely no anti tank and the SW list has half a dozen vehicles. The only way this could have been worse for the Sons is if there had've been wulfen and thundercav (the only 2 competative things in the entire SW book I'll remind you) on the field.

[Blackhawk748]

Ya, some people on Dakka were talking about it, apparently the Grey Hunters somehow charged out of a Rhino or something. So ya...theres that.

[Cheesegear]

Cheese, Acts of Faith now last until the End of Turn, which probably means that Battle Sisters get Preferred Enemy in both phases. Nice guide though

That actually makes them even better.


You should probably read the rules, Cheese. Dreadknights are not allowed to take two of the same weapon.

I was looking at tournament lists the other day, and I saw a Dreadknight with double Psycannons, and I was like "That's a really good idea, why does no-one do that? Probably it's too expensive or something." Turns out the list was illegal, then.

ION; Speaking of illegal lists.
In Battlescribe - and anyone who uses that - there's an option for 'Fortification Detachment', which then claims it's out of Stronghold Assault (at least, that's the reference it gives). Except I've been through Stronghold Assault a billion times and I can find no such thing as a Fortification Detachment. Which means that Battlescribe is a lie, and you shouldn't use it.

The only thing that I can think of, is that there was some event that allowed 'Fortification Detachments', which caused a guy with a little bit of knowledge about BS to insert it into the program, ruining it for everyone.

TL;DR - Stop saying 'Battlescribe says you do a thing'. Present to me a real Codex and show me what you're talking about.


I'll post the list and get those of you who don't already know the result to try and guess what happened before you open the spoiler to find out.

I saw it coming a mile away.


Magnus died to a failed helfrost check of all things like a chump and had virtually 0 impact on the game during the 2 turns he was alive.

That actually kind of surprised me. Since I assumed that it would like a White Dwarf game, where one side was deliberately designed to win. You know, because you actually want to sell models this month. Except unlike a White Dwarf, Twitch is live and you can't fudge things 'cause it's all on camera.


The Sons player wasted all of his warp charge casting blessings on his units and then had nothing left for witchfires

Which surprised no-one, because stacking Blessings and casting Witchfires doesn't mix. You get to do one or the other. Not both. Everyone who understands how the Psychic Phase works called that this would how it would be.

[Voidhawk]

It's time for another Good Idea Bad Idea! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dJOIf4mdus)

Good Idea: Conducting rigorous playtests.

Bad Idea: Conducting your first playtest in front of a live audience, after the codex has been printed.

[Drasius]

ION; Speaking of illegal lists.
In Battlescribe - and anyone who uses that - there's an option for 'Fortification Detachment', which then claims it's out of Stronghold Assault (at least, that's the reference it gives). Except I've been through Stronghold Assault a billion times and I can find no such thing as a Fortification Detachment. Which means that Battlescribe is a lie, and you shouldn't use it.

The only thing that I can think of, is that there was some event that allowed 'Fortification Detachments', which caused a guy with a little bit of knowledge about BS to insert it into the program, ruining it for everyone.

TL;DR - Stop saying 'Battlescribe says you do a thing'. Present to me a real Codex and show me what you're talking about.

It's just there so they didn't have to re-work all formations and such. It's a work around that for some reason has persisted with the 2.0 update. But yes, people need to learn that battlescribe, while an incredibly handy tool, is no match for reading your own copy of the codex that you do totally have because a pirated copy from the web isn't something that's acceptable most places. One thing that irriates me to no end is when somebody hands you their "list" in a tournament and it's just a battlescribe roster on a phone. Please, don't do that to other people, it's bad enough that you're my 3rd eldar opponent of the day, don't make me read your variation of the same list as everyone else off your phone.


I saw it coming a mile away.

What was interesting was that literally as it happened, they were interviewing the guy who wrote the rules for wrath of magnus (he's a total spess woof fanboi by the way) who was crapping on about the totally cool (punintended) super special snowflake fluff around how leman russ and the emperor went to a cave that makes the special crystals that the woofs use in their helfrost weapons just as [spoiler]Magnus got turned into an ice sculpture. But yeah, if you couldn't tell the outcome of the game just by looking at those lists, I'd be worried for your sanity, this was an excersise for others without your deeper understanding of how things work.


That actually kind of surprised me. Since I assumed that it would like a White Dwarf game, where one side was deliberately designed to win. You know, because you actually want to sell models this month. Except unlike a White Dwarf, Twitch is live and you can't fudge things 'cause it's all on camera.

You know, I thought so too, but then, that would not only rely on them actually playing a game for the white dwarf reports but also having at least a basic understanding of the games rules and how they work when they write said rules. The Sons release was, to my mind at least, definative proof that they don't write rules to sell models. Either that or they have even less understanding of the rules than I think they do, and that would be difficult.


Which surprised no-one, because stacking Blessings and casting Witchfires doesn't mix. You get to do one or the other. Not both. Everyone who understands how the Psychic Phase works called that this would how it would be.

I know, I just wanted the people who think that 20 warp charge is a lot to realise that a Sons army doesn't work like they think it does. I sat down this morning and wrote up a list and had excel randomly generate my powers for me and then assigned warp charge to each and tallied how successful I was. Generally I was getting about 11-15 attempts at spells with a roughly 74% success rate (so 8-11 successful casts), though even at that increased number it was still very swingy with powers going off or not, let alone that despite sinking all 1850 into a war cabal with 10 different psychers and 21 mastery levels I was still only getting ~1 power cast per sorceror. Siphon did occasionally help but it was very hit and miss (just like the psychic phase itself). I tried to make a Magnus list too, but he eats ~20 warp charge by himself so the only place he works is in gimmick daemon lists. I still can't seem to find the balance between casters, batteries and support units even though I've spent endless days and night going over and over the same handful of options.

I'm starting to think I was right all along and the best sons list is a list with no rubrics in it at all.

[Cheesegear]

Bad Idea: Conducting your first playtest in front of a live audience, after the codex has been printed.

Design processes always fascinate me, and how designers get from conception to finished product. Especially when finished product looks basically nothing like conception because so many improvements/modifications have been done, the final product isn't anything like the designers really intended.

But, Tabled on Turn 3 doesn't show off how good Thousand Sons are. It shows that Space Wolves can table Thousand Sons by barely even trying. Only three things in the Space Wolf list are what I would consider any good, never mind competitive.

Another joke is that this is supposed to be a preview month for their Twitch. After this month we're actually supposed to subscribe to that badness for money.


One thing that irriates me to no end is when somebody hands you their "list" in a tournament and it's just a battlescribe roster on a phone.

I accidentally stole someone's phone doing that. They handed me their phone, I looked at it. Reflexively, I put the phone back in my pocket. I was in the car on the way home when I realised that there were now two phones in my pocket.


But yeah, if you couldn't tell the outcome of the game just by looking at those lists

Rune Priest is excellent.
5 Blood Claws in a Stormwolf is good. But 9 is wasting points. But, obviously it doesn't matter. The Blood Claws are only taken for access to the ObSec Stormwolf, and the Stormwolf is why the Blood Claws matter. If there were Wulfen on the board, I wouldn't even blink if someone wanted to take 30 Blood Claws. But, yeah. There's no Wulfen, and x9 is more than 5. Which means x9 is more than you need for a Stormwolf.
The Dreadnought with Axe & Shield is hardly competitive. But it is good. The Dreadnought with an Assault Cannon is bad. Because you play Space Wolves and have access to Helfrost Cannons. According to the commentators, these two opponents knew that they'd be playing against each other, and it certainly sounds like the Space Wolf player tried to tailor as hard as he could, by bringing as much AV as he could, along with unkillable Dreadnoughts... Should've brought more Helfrost Cannons.

Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod with Meltaguns isn't good, because Grey Hunters are bad. But, if you were going to hard tailor, you might bring some Grey Hunters with dual Plasma Guns in Rhinos... Oh wait.

I assume that Logan Grimnar (and Ulrik) are in the list for narrative purposes. But I'm not going to pretend that Logan isn't good. Logan is good, but he's by no means competitive.

Just by looking the lists, I see that the Space Wolves have 6 units (not including x3 ICs), five of them being in Transports, two of which are Drop Pods. The Thousand Sons have 5 units (plus Ahriman), no Transports and certainly no Drop Pods. What? Where'd all the points go?

Both teams have a Flier each. Except the Space Wolves used theirs properly - and also got lucky - while Magnus was used like trash.


I know, I just wanted the people who think that 20 warp charge is a lot to realise that a Sons army doesn't work like they think it does.

A 'proper' Psychic army has upwards of +30.


I'm starting to think I was right all along and the best sons list is a list with no rubrics in it at all.

Yeah. Once they didn't get a points decrease, you knew it was downhill.

EDIT:

Grey Knights, CAD
Librarian; ML3, Hammer, Book - 165 Points
Librarian; ML3, Melta Bombs, Soul Glaive - 160 Points

Strike Squad (x5); Incinerator, x1 Hammer, Melta Bombs - 130 Points
Terminators (x5); Psycannon, x4 Hammers - 225 Points
Terminators (x5); Psycannon, x3 Hammers, Melta Bombs - 220 Points

Nemesis Dreadknight; Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon - 195 Points
Nemesis Dreadknight; Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator - 180 Points
Nemesis Dreadknight; Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator - 180 Points

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points
Acolytes (x5); x3 Power Armour & Plasma Guns - 65 Points
Crusaders (x2) - 30 Points
Astropath; Laspistol, ML2 - 50 Points

Astra Telepathica, Psykana Division
Astropath; Laspistol, ML2 - 50 Points

Astra Telepathica, Psykana Division
Astropath; Laspistol, ML2 - 50 Points

Astra Telepathica, Psykana Division
Astropath; Laspistol, ML2 - 50 Points

Total: 1850 Points

+22 Dice.

[deuterio12]

You know, a funny thing about Plague Marines vs Deathguard chaos marines is that back in 3e, plague marines were simply chaos marines with the mark of nurgle. But then they started getting fancy extras like blight grenades and plague knives, along point cost increase.

So chaos marines with just the mark of nurgle going back to being the "best" plague marines is simply going back to basics



Yeah. Once they didn't get a points decrease, you knew it was downhill.


I wasn't even wishing for a points decrease. Just something along the lines of the 4e codex where the rubrics lose S&P while the aspiring sorceror is alive. And the aspiring sorceror able to learn from any school and be properly protected by his not-golems.

Charging at a rubric marines squad wasn't as much an auto-win in 4e since you couldn't single out the aspiring sorceror and he could go all WWWWRRRRRYYYYY with warp time and a force weapon.

[Forum Explorer]

You know, I thought so too, but then, that would not only rely on them actually playing a game for the white dwarf reports but also having at least a basic understanding of the games rules and how they work when they write said rules. The Sons release was, to my mind at least, definative proof that they don't write rules to sell models. Either that or they have even less understanding of the rules than I think they do, and that would be difficult.


Apparently the Blackshirts at a local GW actually phone into the gaming store I play at asking for rule advice. So I'm pretty sure their rule comprehension is actually 0, from bottom to the top.

[Drasius]

Apparently the Blackshirts at a local GW actually phone into the gaming store I play at asking for rule advice. So I'm pretty sure their rule comprehension is actually 0, from bottom to the top.

Yeah, but the blackshirts mean nothing, they're just retail salesmen, many of whom don't play all the games they sell. In fact, I'd almost say the fact that the blackshirt actually cares enough to ring up someone else for rules questions makes them a step above the normal quality who just make things up if most of the internet tales are to be believed. My local GW has been blessed by a bunch of great managers, so I don't see the horrors that many people report, but even if only half of them are true and only mildly blown out of proportion, then there's still a lot of bad store managers out there.

In the grand scheme of things, it's only if the rules writers know what they're doing and if actual feedback from any actual play testing gets back to them and is incorperated into the rules design. Or if, say, a rabid spess woofs fan writes the rules for the Thousand Sons, their mortal enemy and you end up with them being one of only 2 trash tier legions out of the traitor legions supplement, despite getting their own book. It should be quite clear to anyone who's played the game in any sort of mildly competative meta that a bunch of things that they do just flat out don't work. For instance, take a quick flick through the eldar dex after reading the DE or ork books and then come back and tell me that you don't notice a massive, massive discrepancy in how things are costed and what options exist. The entire internet almost caught fire when the scatbikes statblock and options were released beacuse everyone with a pair of neurons to rub together could see that 81 points for 12 str6 AP doesn't matter shots on MEQ jsj jetbikes wasn't really on the level. How did this get past not only the writer, but also the play testers and the editor? Fair enough, it can be hard to step back when you're the writer, but anyone else should have at least raised an eyebrow at windriders/wraithknight/wraithguard/farseer points costs and maybe sent the book back for a toning down. I just really want to know how bad Phil Kellythe eldar player is at GW rules central is that they need that level of codex power to win the odd game.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, but the blackshirts mean nothing, they're just retail salesmen, many of whom don't play all the games they sell.

My Blackshirt tries. But he's so bad, and he actually knows it. Luckily, he's got us to tell him what to do. He even has a cheat sheet of "What Is Good" for each Faction in his drawer that we helped him write so he can sell more models to people who actually want to play the game and not be bad at it.


My local GW has been blessed by a bunch of great managers, so I don't see the horrors that many people report, but even if only half of them are true and only mildly blown out of proportion, then there's still a lot of bad store managers out there.

QFT. We've had some terrible ones. But the one we have now is the best we've ever had. He actually engages us. He asks us how to sell models to new kids (see the above example). He knows that we know more than him.


In the grand scheme of things, it's only if the rules writers know what they're doing and if actual feedback from any actual play testing gets back to them and is incorperated into the rules design.

Remember the infamous Matt Ward story? A play-tester would come up to him and say "This seems broke.", and he would reply "Good."
...They don't write 'em like Matt Ward anymore.

[deuterio12]

Tournament-winning pure Dark Eldar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zkcl1hq4bg)


+++ Lawrence NR3 (1746pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (DE Realspace Raiders Detachment) (1746pts) ++

+ HQ (195pts) +

Archon (195pts) [Agoniser, Blaster, Haywire Grenades, Kabalite Armour, The Armour of Misery]
····Venom [Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon]

+ Troops (675pts) +

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Fast Attack (876pts) +

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]


Yes, no allies whatsoever, just pure Dark Eldar.

Tactics are simple, just alpha-strike your enemy with a lot of blasters and poisoned shots followed by crapload of auto-hit S6 rending caltrops and haywire anything still standing.

[thedavo]

So disappointed with the Tzeentch book. They had the opportunity to make evil Grey Knights, and blew it. Disappointing the long-time Chaos players is what GW does best.

[hamishspence]

Yes, no allies whatsoever, just pure Dark Eldar.


I thought "1 per 3 models" meant you need at least 3 models before you can take a single special weapon, you need at least 6 models before you can take 2 special weapons, and so on.

[Blackhawk748]

...They don't write 'em like Matt Ward anymore.

And the internet looked on and said "Good"


*The Wisdom of Drasius*

Hell the discrepancy started with Necrons, we just didnt freak out as much, but once that Eldar Dex dropped, oooh boy, did we lose it.

And i've been thinking, if you just changed Mob Rule back to its old version Orks would be pretty solid at Maelstrom. Fearless Ob Sec anyone? But no, we got that stupid chart that gets actively worse when you run any formation that has Da Boss is Watchin. God i wanna slap the idiot who wrote those books.


Tournament-winning pure Dark Eldar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zkcl1hq4bg)


+++ Lawrence NR3 (1746pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (DE Realspace Raiders Detachment) (1746pts) ++

+ HQ (195pts) +

Archon (195pts) [Agoniser, Blaster, Haywire Grenades, Kabalite Armour, The Armour of Misery]
····Venom [Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon]

+ Troops (675pts) +

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Fast Attack (876pts) +

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]


Yes, no allies whatsoever, just pure Dark Eldar.

Tactics are simple, just alpha-strike your enemy with a lot of blasters and poisoned shots followed by crapload of auto-hit S6 rending caltrops and haywire anything still standing.

Was he fighting exclusively Guard, Orks, and Nids? Seriously, how did he win so hard??

[LeSwordfish]

My own blackshirt has on occasion chided me for playing to the rules too much. She was very nice about it, and i'm fond of her, but I wouldn't go to her for specific rules advice.

[Ricky S]

And the
Was he fighting exclusively Guard, Orks, and Nids? Seriously, how did he win so hard??

Its possible he had fantastic match ups or he broke the tournaments meta somehow.

[Wraith]

I thought "1 per 3 models" meant you need at least 3 models before you can take a single special weapon, you need at least 6 models before you can take 2 special weapons, and so on.

This is how I and everyone else I've ever known have always played it. There are some games systems which have you buy units in "blocks"; [1-3][4-6][7-9] and so on, and you take equipment according to how many 'blocks' you have (even if one block only has one model in it). 40k has never, to my knowledge, had that provision.

[Mystic Muse]

This is just a general curiosity question. I don't actually play, but I was interested in a Celestine the Living Saint mini since she looks really cool. However, she seems to be completely sold out everywhere. Is she that good, or is there some other weird reason she just seems to be gone?

Granted, I may just be very late to the party, and she sold out months ago, I'm just curious.

[Wraith]

The army that Celestine belongs to - Sisters of Battle, also known as Adeptus Sororitas - is a niche one. It's been around since the late 90's but has had barely any new models released in over 15 years. The last codex released for SoB was also years ago, and it was a pretty crap release, given away free in a magazine with no new rules or units; just a straight conversion to the newer 7th Edition main rulebook.

In all previous versions of the SoB book, Celestine was THE unit to make the army work properly, so everyone had to have one. Problem is, because SoB are such an old army she was only ever made out of metal rather than plastic, and Games Workshop discontinued their metal range some years back. She's now out of stock because the first 'proper' SoB book in 20 years is due out early next year, and GW's backstock of metal models has run out. Hopefully she'll be recommissioned in plastic or resin.... Assuming she returns at all....
But that's about it. GW haven't made any new Celestine models since.... well, at least 2011 and probably (because SoB) a few years prior to that. If you can get your hands on one, I'd imagine that the resale value right now is INSANE. :smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

I see an already painted one on Ebay for about $50 (literally the only one I can find(, so you aren't wrong.

Was just curious, since I prefer metal minis to plastic/resin. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Kris Strife]

Cheesegear, can the Vindicare assassin still give full BS and Ignore Cover to fortification weapons?

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear, can the Vindicare assassin still give full BS and Ignore Cover to fortification weapons?

The Vindicare is copy-pasted from Mont'ka. The Vindicare has Ignores Cover on every weapon that rolls To Hit. So, yes. Remembering that Blast weapons do not roll To Hit, and are unaffected by the Vindicare's Spy Mask... Which has been the rule for a while...Since Mont'ka, in fact.

[Kris Strife]

The Vindicare is copy-pasted from Mont'ka. The Vindicare has Ignores Cover on every weapon that rolls To Hit. So, yes. Remembering that Blast weapons do not roll To Hit, and are unaffected by the Vindicare's Spy Mask... Which has been the rule for a while...Since Mont'ka, in fact.

I'd seen it as a suggestion for las-cannon fortification weapons, especially those with skyfire, as an anti-air measure.

[Drasius]

The army that Celestine belongs to - Sisters of Battle, also known as Adeptus Sororitas - is a niche one. It's been around since the late 90's but has had barely any new models released in over 15 years. The last codex released for SoB was also years ago, and it was a pretty crap release, given away free in a magazine with no new rules or units; just a straight conversion to the newer 7th Edition main rulebook.

In all previous versions of the SoB book, Celestine was THE unit to make the army work properly, so everyone had to have one. Problem is, because SoB are such an old army she was only ever made out of metal rather than plastic, and Games Workshop discontinued their metal range some years back. She's now out of stock because the first 'proper' SoB book in 20 years is due out early next year, and GW's backstock of metal models has run out. Hopefully she'll be recommissioned in plastic or resin.... Assuming she returns at all....
But that's about it. GW haven't made any new Celestine models since.... well, at least 2011 and probably (because SoB) a few years prior to that. If you can get your hands on one, I'd imagine that the resale value right now is INSANE. :smalltongue:

The sisters have/had a digital dex that's been confirmed to not be over-ridden by codex imperial agents and that was written for 6th.

Also, technically Jacobus was an option too since celestine needed a squad of seraphim as ablative wounds, but yeah, the only other choice is/was a cannoness and she's pretty terrible for the points. She was put on last chance to buy once the codex imperial agents was released (which she wasn't in) and was sold out pretty much everywhere in less than a day, in some places less than half an hour. The current odds are that she's getting a new model for the new codex that is heavily rumoured (and, to my mind, confirmed by the wording on the Verydian model's rules) to be out in ~Feb/March.


Cheesegear, can the Vindicare assassin still give full BS and Ignore Cover to fortification weapons?

I'm not Cheese, but yes, if they are the one firing it. I assume that you're looking at the macro cannon/vortex missile option or perhaps the plasma obliterator (with or without the haemotrope reactors)? Just FYI, the Space Marine Start Collecting! formation allows the captain to order a unit to fire once in the movement phase and then allows them to fire again in the shooting phase. This also works for fortification guns. Also, the Dark Raper Exarch ability "Fast Shot" allows them to fire a weapon twice, which again works on any fortification that they are manning While he'll also ignore bikes Jink saves and get a re-roll vs things that went flat out or turboboosted. The other little trick I remember for this is the spess woof Rune Priest Sorceror with the Helm of Durfast I think it is? That gives his shooting attacks Ignores Cover so you can jam him in something like the macro cannon or plasma obliterator. Technically you can stick Dominions in there with Jacobus and a simulcrum and they will also be able to grant ignores cover for 3 turns too, but they're an inferior option and have better things to do (like scouting in an Immolator and melta'ing tanks). Same goes for the white scars relic Hunters Eye that hands out Ignores Cover to him and his unit, but if you're being a douche, you're almost certainly better off jamming a libby with the Eye in a FA pod with 3 grav cents instead. I think that's about it for fortifications tricks.

Edit: Damn ninja's

[Voidhawk]

Its possible he had fantastic match ups or he broke the tournaments meta somehow.

Having watched the video, his matches and results were as follows:
Match 1 - Imperial Guard. Tabled around turn 3.
Match 2 - Space Marines (Fists Chapter), with a list very reminiscent of some of Chesegear's. Killed both Thunderfire cannons in the first turn, and then 3+ Jink won the day.
Match 3 - Tau. Relic, so he murdered everything Tau that could pick it up it.
Match 4 - Demons. Very very close game. He got Primary, but lost Secondary and Tertiary objectives. Won 15-14 on points.
Match 5 - Eldar. He siezed. Opponent conceded after everything but the Wraithknight and one Crimson Hunter got slaughtered in CC. Scat-bikes don't like Cluster Caltrops.

Seizing the Initiative on a 5+ in several games, good warlord traits, and generally going first/second as he needed it definitely helped. He always had a plan for each match up, deploying aggressively or defensively so his first couple of turns always had the alpha strike he needed. He seemed to play the non-demon matches kind of like Eternal War, just applying a ridiculous quantity of firepower to his opponents most important units one after the other.

Edit: Looked at the date. This was posted back in October.

[ZeltArruin]

In all previous versions of the SoB book, Celestine was THE unit to make the army work properly, so everyone had to have one. Problem is, because SoB are such an old army she was only ever made out of metal rather than plastic, and Games Workshop discontinued their metal range some years back. She's now out of stock because the first 'proper' SoB book in 20 years is due out early next year, and GW's backstock of metal models has run out. Hopefully she'll be recommissioned in plastic or resin.... Assuming she returns at all....

I guess she failed the roll.

[deuterio12]

As Voidhawk said, faced pretty much all of the top meta armies and came up ahead.

And bonus points in my book for being quite a fluffy DE army, all about speed and hitting the enemy where it hurts.

[Requizen]

Tournament-winning pure Dark Eldar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zkcl1hq4bg)


+++ Lawrence NR3 (1746pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (2014) (DE Realspace Raiders Detachment) (1746pts) ++

+ HQ (195pts) +

Archon (195pts) [Agoniser, Blaster, Haywire Grenades, Kabalite Armour, The Armour of Misery]
····Venom [Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon]

+ Troops (675pts) +

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

Kabalite Warriors (135pts) [3x Kabalite Warrior]
····Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster]
····Sybarite [Close Combat Weapon, Haywire Grenades, Splinter Rifle]
····Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Fast Attack (876pts) +

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]

Reavers (146pts) [2x Cluster caltrops, 4x Reaver]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]
····Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models)
········Reaver jetbike [Blaster]


Yes, no allies whatsoever, just pure Dark Eldar.

Tactics are simple, just alpha-strike your enemy with a lot of blasters and poisoned shots followed by crapload of auto-hit S6 rending caltrops and haywire anything still standing.

As it turns out, 24+12d6 potential auto-hitting rend attacks on fast, Skilled Rider models is pretty good.

And then you go against 3 Knights or Drop Pod spam which would take a nice big ol dump on it probably.

Edit: oh, and Deathstars. HoW spam beats invis, but very little beats 3++ with Endurance and spam chaff bodies.

[Kris Strife]

Anyone here have a Leman Russ with the Battle cannon, preferably with pintle lascannon and sponson heavy bolters? I need an image of one from the top down for an OW game.

[Saambell]

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah248/camdaglish/IMG_20161219_121036275_zpsnmz6gsf5.jpg
Sorry for the horrible paint job and maybe bad camera. I have unsteady hands. Also my desk is messy...

[LeSwordfish]

Anyone here have a Leman Russ with the Battle cannon, preferably with pintle lascannon and sponson heavy bolters? I need an image of one from the top down for an OW game.

For my own games, I used the sprites used in Vassal40k.

[Drasius]

A Guide To Treachery
Guides to Traitor Legions and Traitor's Hate

Some General Notes on Legions
You can make any detatchment or formation a Legion formation. If you’re in a Legion, you’ll have restrictions on what Marked units you can have. This will really hurt some units, who really want either Marks or Icons. You also get Veterans Of The Long War for free on everything that will take it, which is neat. You also get extra special bonuses on everything with VotLW - remember that this includes Daemon Princes and all named HQs, but not Spawn, Cultists, or Vehicles. Or Tzaangors.

Marked Psykers can roll all powers on their god’s tables. There’s a few good’uns hidden in there - particularly on the Nurgle table, and rolling all powers gets you a better shot at them. As usual, plan ahead and have some idea of what you want to do. Probably mention that none of the tables are as good as the BRB tables (and by that, I mean Div, Bio and Telepathy).

Many legions move things to Troops. Remember that this happens even if you’re using Formations - you no longer give up VPs for Big Guns Never Tire or Purge, and some things (like Deathwatch) will work differently for you. Probably worth mentioning that while this works in a CAD or allied detatchment and you no longer need a marked lord (or sorceror for Thousand Sons) to make cults troops, you do have to abide by all the specific legion requirements. Seems obvious to me, but people over on dakka are having problems getting their heads around this one, so I assume there will be some confusion here too.

...

Generic Things For Everyone
....

Helforged Warpack*
You get Daemonforge twice, and assorted buffs to one thing in the Warpack, including the Character special rule, which is pretty good since then you can Challenge scary thunder hammers etc. Those aren’t bad, but the warpsmith is a hundred points of tax, and do you really want to pay that much for them. On the plus side, you were taking three or more -fiend units if you were taking any, right? You get to Daemonforge as many times as you want, not just twice. Also, Warpsmith is 110 points of tax. Also worth mentioning that a Helbrute gets more out of being the alpha since the others all have a 5++ inherently for being daemons.

Heldrake Terror Pack*
Heldrakes are good and this is the only way to do it. The Merciless Pursuit rule is broken, as in doesn’t function at all. Debuffs to leadership are sometimes good, though: will it be useful in your meta? Heldrakes are always useful unless you play against nothing but TEQ spam. There are very few armies that can't be improved by the addition of a heldrake and IMHO.

Cult Of Destruction*
Pretty good! Shooting/attacking twice is very nice indeed, but hurts from being tied to a Warpsmith (and you have to be close to the warpsmith, which means no double-shot deep strikes.) You’ll want at least one maxed unit for the warpsmith to buff, so that’s a minimum of five models… if you were taking that many anyway, (and hell, they’re not bad, you might as well be) 110 points to shoot twice is actually pretty fair. The restriction on not only shooting the same unit, but also that you can't use the same weapons twice while still not being able to use the ones you used in the previous turn is ... limiting, especially at range (and you're going to have to footslog them because the warpsmith basically needs to be attached to the unit he's going to buff due to the 8" range).

Fist Of The Gods*
It’s the only way you can get the Chaos armour, and you pay the Warpsmith Tax. Unless you really want tanks, avoid. I have a much higher opinion of this than you as the heavy slot is crowded and this is not only a relatively cheap Aux if you want it to be, but also good as a stand alone to free up heavy support slots in a CAD. Requiring a warpsmith bites, but at least he's got vehicles to fix here.

Raptor Talon*
Charging out of Deep Strike is fun, but will probably not actually work. You don’t have anything to make Deep Striking more reliable (save Cursed Earth for Warp Talons) and similarly nothing for reserve rolls, and if you do pull it off, your charge is Disordered! This formation is just so weedy compared to the C:SM ones that do the same thing. Negatives to leadership is neat - Fear is useless, sure, but maybe you can Sweeping Advance? Unless you really want lots of raptors, I’d suggest taking them in the Warband instead - get Objective Secured. When you summon a daemon unit, you can equip them with Icons for free (instruments too, but that doesn't matter) that mean units DS within 6" scatter 1d6 if they are a daemon unit of a different god or not at all if they are a daemon unit of the same god. This can be used in conjunction with Warp talons too, even if you don't roll cursed and since it's the primaris, it's assured that you'll have the option available, and since you can summon turn 1, you can be assured that you'll have a locator beacon knockoff available. As bad as warp talons are, taking a unit as a body guard for your character isn't the worst use of points ever. Also note that mark of khorne doesn't work very well here since their bonus (rage and possibly furios charge dependant on banner) is nullified by the disordered charge.

Terminator Annihilation Force*
Compare this to the First Company Formation and weep. You get Hatred - you have this against 50% of armies already - and can shoot a bonus time against a single unit if you Deep Strike in. I guess you could take combi-meltas, pop a transport, and then combi-bolter a unit that comes out, but you’re paying a lot of points to Alpha Strike, like, a single Chimera.

You still don’t have anything to make Deep Striking better. Again, I would just max out the terminator slots in your Warband. Agreed, the only trick you can pull here is using the burning brand to shoot twice, but IMHO, it's not worth it for the cost of the rest of the formations, especially when you can have Obsec termies instead.

...

Black Crusade Detachment (Traitor’s Hate Only)[/B]
You should seriously consider taking this instead of your own Legion’s Detatchment. Free boon rolls are really that good. Can you mix and match Legions inside this detachment? So taking, say, a Death Guard Warband, and a Black Legion Raptor talon? Yes, to the best of my knowledge. You can also make this a warband too just by nominating it to be one for most of the bonii you would have gotten in your normal legions warband without some of the oddities they have.

...

Black Legion
Probably worth mentioning that the Black Legion stuff is basically just the 3rd reprint of what they already got in the first black legion reprint and the extra toys they got in traitor's hate, so if you play Black Legion, it's not really worth bothering about getting trator legions since it basically give them nothing.


Black Legion have the most stuff, but actually only have a few things they want to do. If you don’t want “terminators deep striking turn one” or “terminators as troops”, you won’t get much from Black Legion. Just ally a Cyclopia Cabal into whatever else you’re doing, and run the Black Crusade.

Alpha Legion
Yep, Alpha Legion is good. Perhaps worth menioning about Alpha legion Tzeentch marked Daemon prince with the armour since he can re-roll 1's and he also gets shrouded first turn for a 2+ rr1's when he jinks against AP2.


Alpha Legion rule, especially in Maelstrom. They take a bit more piloting than Death Guard, but can get more out of it.

Iron Warriors
Warlord Traits
1: Feel No Pain (4+). Cool!
2: Fearless. This is where you realise that Iron Warriors really wants you to take the underwhelming warpsmith as your Warlord.
3: You can give a piece of terrain +1 Cover Save. This is great, since you have a lot of units that just want to sit back in cover.
4: Obliterators can fire the same gun twice in a row. Rubbish What? This is a 12" bubble of firing assault cannons [I]every turn. This is a FANTASTIC trait (as long as you're bringing Oblits, but why wouldn't you if you're playing Iron Warriors?)
5: Counter-Attack and Split Fire when in cover. That’s pretty nice.
6: Vehicles near you have It Will Not Die. Nice, but why are you spending points on vehicles instead of Tank Hunting, Objective Secured Obliterators.

...

Artefacts
Warpbreacher: You can give a nearby - really nearby - vehicle - Daemonic Posession. This isn’t a bad ability to hand out, since sometimes you really do need a vehicle to not be stunned or shaken for a turn. That tiny range is really restrictive, though. Terrible for the points and resitctions when you can just buy possession for 15 points on any vehicle that needs is (like vindicators) and doesn't take up a a relic slot.
Nest Of Mechaserpents: In a challenge, if you land your first two attacks, the rest have Instant Death. That’s not bad, though how many things exist that are worth Instant Death-ing that you have more than 25% chance of landing two specific attacks on?
Axe Of The Forgemaster: Armourbane, master-crafted power axe. If you’re thinking of taking a powerfist, this is actually better, though you pay for it on a Terminator. 5+2d6 is 12 on average, compared to 11 for a powerfist, and it’s not a specialist weapon, and it’s Master-crafted so those attacks are going to hit. Deadly on a Daemon Prince, though Unwieldy makes it painful
Fleshmetal Exoskeleton: 2+ Armor save and It Will Not Die. Pretty fantastic. Again, point out the obvious benefits for a Tzeentch Prince.
Cranium Malevolus: Every nearby vehicle, every one of your shooting phases, takes a haywire hit. This isn’t bad, but I think you should seriously consider what your warlord should do - if you’re sitting back on an objective with everything else, how often will you see tanks within 2d6”
Siegebreaker Mace: Master-crafter Power Maul, that can make a single str10 Ap1 hit instead of a normal attack. This makes the Black Legion equivalent look like a bad joke, especially since it’s cheaper. A power maul isn’t a great base, though.

Grand Company
You can take Fortifications as an auxillary slot. This is nice, since you get Fearless for sitting on them, and Stubborn otherwise. You also get to re-roll scatter on Ordnance or Barrage weapons… so, Vindicators? And your fortifications, I guess. If you want to do Fortifications - and you’re Iron Warriors, so its very thematic - this is a great detachment for it. If you don’t… re-rolling scatter on your Vindicators? How many are you taking? Would be great if you could somehow get Basilisks, but those days have passed. If you're not doing Fortifications, you can probably get more out of Objective Secured Obliterators in a CAD. You can get the Vengance weapon battery and give them battle cannons which are ordnance, likewise with the Vortex missile battery on the aquila strongpoint and, dependant on interpretation, should a pasycher roll on telekinesis for some reason and get psychic maelstrom, it could be argued that he'd get a re-roll on that (it's barrage), but I think you'd be struggling to argue that it's a weapon.

...

If you’re taking Obliterators, making them troops is great. If you’re taking tanks and warpsmiths, you can get good things for them. Can you take both in one force? Probably, so long as you’re not playing 1000 points or something. Iron Warriors really want to sit back and shoot, which doesn’t work in Maelstrom. In Eternal War, though, it can totally work. Don't forget that Oblits have power fists and 2 attacks base, they're actually fairly scary in CC and with twin linked plasma guns, melta guns, flamers and a non twin linked heavy flamer, they also have good firepower up close too and SnP means that they can charge after rapid firing those twin linked plasmas to really pile on the hurt. Being able to take solo ObSec Mutilators as a troops choice is also a nice trick since they're not something you want to waste a bunch of firepower on, but they will tear up MSU squads with relative ease and can DS onto objectives as single units without too much hassle.

Night Lords
You get Fear, Night Vision, and Stealth, and Raptors are Troops. Raptors only get so much from Stealth, though, thanks to Dangerous Terrain tests, and already have Fear. You'll probably want some standard squads hiding at the back in cover. Stealth is also great on Bikes and Heldrakes, since they can jink whenever they want. And daemon princes.


Artefacts
Scourging Chains: Pretty good, but you only get one per model.
Claws Of The Black Hunt: Rending is very nice on Lightning Claws, as is master-crafted. That's a lot of points, though.
Talons Of The Night Terror: I mean, if you WANT to be better at killing guardsmen...
Vox Daemonicus: Messing with enemy reserves is fun. It's also yet another source of -Leadership, so if you want to be really sure your enemy is failing their fear test, this is here. So many things ignore leadership entirely, though.
Curze's Orb: Worth ignoring in my opinion. I guess it could save you from your own Plasma Pistol?
Stormbolt Plate: YES. BEST. Artificier Armour with +1 cover save, for only twenty points. An auto-include on your warlord. Again, Daemon prince of Tz thinks this is the best thing ever.

(The Stormbolt Plate goes really well with a Daemon Prince of Nurgle- Stealth, Shrouded, and an additional +1 means a 3+ cover save outside cover. If you're running Night Lords, I'd give serious consideration to making this guy your warlord.)

Night Lords want their opponents to be constantly failing leadership tests. Depending on your meta, how useful will that be?

Word Bearers

You can take Possessed as troops. *pinches forehead, sighs* Okay, well, maybe the rest is good. You can give things Marks, which is nice in some cases. You get boosts when trying to cast Conjuration powers. That’s good! You’re a little less likely to Perils yourself to death, and the best thing Chaos Space Marines can do is summon a better army… I kid, I kid. Sorry not sorry? Far more truth in that joke than there should be unfortunately. You also get Zealot when near Dark Apostles. Dark Apostles aren’t particularly good.

Out of left field, Word Bearers have the best artefacts in the book? Not even close

...

Oddly, Word Bearers have no particular need to take Dark Apostles or Possessed, their two most thematic units. Summoning on 3+ is nice if you’re going to be summoning, and you’ve got a ton of good relics to make it better. If all you want is “Warband + Something + Allied Cabal” to summon, you could do “Warband + Something + A Bunch Of Sorcerors” and not be much worse off for it.

World Eaters
So the big deal with World Eaters is: are they better than Khorne Daemonkin? I don’t pretend to be an expert on Daemonkin, but that’s the question you should keep asking.

You have to take the Mark Of Khorne on everything. That’s not great: a lot of things just don’t care about it. That means no psykers (an allied Black Legion Cabal solves this easily), which hurts, and because you’re not Daemonkin you don’t get anything to replace that. You can take Kharn (a big plus point over Daemonkin) and Khorne Bezerkers are troops. Played sensibly - Icon, transport - that’s not bad.

You get Fearless, Furious Charge, and Adamantium Will. Daemonkin can pay Blood Tithe points for two of those. How much Fearless do you need? All of it. Fearless is the best.

Artefacts
Talisman of Burning Blood: +3 to Move, Charge, and Run distances. Very good indeed, nearly an autoinclude. Take this and the Maelstrom of Gore in the Butcherhorde, and you're moving 15"+2d6+2d6 with re-rolls. That should get you a first-turn charge, even if your opponent thinks they're being sneaky hiding six inches or so behind the line. Doesn't work on the pregame move like some people seems to think it does since it specifies in the movement/shooting/assault phases
Berserker Glaive: Two-handed, master-crafted relic blade Daemon Weapon, that gives Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die, but takes away the Independent Character special rule. Feel No Pain and IWND just aren’t good enough to justify being on your own outside a unit, but Daemon Princes have fun with it.
Brass Collar: Deny the Witch on 4+, and if you Deny, the psyker suffers Perils. This is useful psychic defense, sure - i’m not sure it’s that good (since you’ll probably only have d6 dice) but it’s better than nothing.
Gorefather: Two-handed Armourbane Power Axe that does Instant Death on sixes. You should consider taking this instead of a powerfist.
The Crimson Killer: A Plasma pistol with Soul Blaze instead of Gets Hot. Way better than a plasma pistol, but you weren’t taking one of those anyway.
Bloodfeeder: Power Axe that replaces all your attacks with 2d6 hits. That’s a whole bunch. On every roll of a One, though, you take a wound with no armour saves. Rolls of One where? On the 2d6? To hit? To wound? It’s a lot of points above a normal axe. It's also a specialist weapon, so no +1 attack for a pistol. This doesn't even come close to the Axe of Blind Fury for only 5 more points.

Lord Of Skulls
Jesus, nine hundred points for one model? It’s not worth that at all.

Trinity Of Blood
Three of them in a formation is a joke. 2700 points! You could get a Warlord titan for that. Note that FW allows you to replace a Lord of Fail with a Kytan (who is a much more reasonable 525 points) in any formation in which you could normally take the Khornemower.


The Word Bearers (World Eaters, not Word Bearers) really want to be always in combat, all the time. You should be doing everything you can to gear towards that, and in match-ups where that's not possible (jetbike eldar), you lose. Probably Daemonkin are better - Summoning things by killing things is really really good.


Death Guard
...

You can take Plague Marines as troops. Trouble is, why would you? For six points over an ordinary marine, you get Blight Grenades and Poisoned weapons - neither of which is at all bad, but do you really need them? I'm actually asking: if you think you need a truckload of poisoned attacks, Plague Marines are there. Blight Grenades are great, though - if you have points spare, they're at least as useful as meltabombs. Remember you can throw them to Blind things. Plauges also get 2 specials at 5 men instead of at 10 like MoN CSM. If that's what you're going for, then Plauges work out significantly cheaper, though with less bodies.
...

Vectorium
Honestly, just about everything in the codex loves a Mark Of Nurgle. Take what you want, it's all good. The Chaos Warband is a really solid base for an army, and you should give serious consideration to taking a single spawn to make the Warband into a Vectorium, then just piling on more Objective Secured Fearless things. Especially useful are bikes, which take and hold Maelstrom objectives. An endless hoarde of single model MoN spawn is also a very solid option for target saturation and a spawn in combat with MSU squads will generally win and even if they don't, they've got 3 T6 wounds and are fearless, meaning it's going to take a while for said MSU squads to break out if they do kill the spawn.

...

Death Guard rule. If you want a "Competitive" list, it's these or Alpha Legion.
...

Kakophoni
Noise Marines bring the always-lovely Ap3 Ignores Cover, and this formation gives you Split Fire so you can shoot your anti-infantry Sonic Blasters and your anti-heavy-infantry Blastmasters at different targets. And then it puts Shred on top of that. Noise Marines are better than ordinary CSM, so this is a pretty good formation for the Emperor’s Children - no Objective Secured, though. I’m also not at all sure you need the points outlay for +1 strength. Shredding Str5 ignores cover bolters are no joke, especially if you can get them to stand still for 3 shots. If you can get the slaaneshi power for give sonic weapons +1 str, you've now got str6 ignores cover salvo 2/3 bolters with shred and that's terrifying, though with the expansion of the slaaneshi table to 6 powers, it's much less reliable a thing than it used to be to roll it, though now you do have the option of rolling all your powers on the slaanesh table if you want to.

I hit the Character Count! The Thousand Sons stuff wasn't finished, so I took it out. Bloody Bias! I note that you did every legion in order despite the fact that TSons come before DG and EC. I demand a recount! ;p


Please, please, please. With this MFD, find a way to jam a Dark Apostle into it. Either with Lost & The Damned (Core choice), or throw in a CAD. A Black Crusade is made with a 30 Point Spawn. You have room in your list for two units of (ObSec) Cultists, if it gets you a Dark Apostle in a Black Crusade Detachment.

Sucks that you can't take a Dark Apostle in the Command choice.

This is one of the few times you shouldn't listen to Cheese, he's clearly gone mad. Dork Apostles are the absolute worst and despite having a great model, have no business being anywhere near the table unless absolutely required.


I'm just unimpressed by Dark Apostles overall, really. Over a hundred points for Zealot and re-roll Boons? That's forty points more than a Chaos Lord, and he's got +1 in almost every stat. Re-rolling boons is nice, but you're already rolling twice and picking, do you really need to re-roll your double rolls? You're not getting Spawn'd unless you want to be - do you really want to pay 205 points minimum to get better rolls?

You're right to be uniimpressed. Think about it this way, for 20 points over the Dork, you can have an ML3 Sorceror with a spell familiar and I know for certain which one of those is going to do more work (pro tip: It's not the Apostle).


I guess it is? I can't help but feel that if you're dropping that many points on Sorcerers, you're probably planning something specific. I must admit, I'd never read the Cabal's rules before this book, and so assumed they got something else fantastic as well - I was a bit underwhelmed. You mean they're not casting on 3+, or sharing powers? They just... get that? I'd definitely rather be Word Bearers and Summoning on 3+, or Death Guard and FnP.

Yeah, like I've said elsewhere, it's not that great, it's just 3-5 sorcs with the only tax being 5 ppm for VotLW. If all you want is more sorcs, then it's fantastic, but compared to (admittedly hilariously overpowered stuff) like the libby conclave or seer council, it's not great.


I've seen at least one group announcing that the "official reading" is that it's a re-roll. I agree the RAW is pretty unambiguous, but I wouldn't be surprised if the consensus settled elsewhere. You'd think if it was deliberate, that they'd have mentioned it.

Local meta's gonna local. It depends on how your TO or local meta rules it. Like you said, it's pretty unambiguous by RAW, but that's never stopped people before.


Ignores Cover is good, right? Ignores Cover Blast Krak missiles are really good, right?

Not for 30 points, though the ability to splitfire is fantastic.


I think the same sort of thing applies to all three* of these formations: You take these guys as your Line Troops, and some other dudes with Objective Secured. Pretend that none of them are Core choices and consider them in that light. In that light... khornates want a megacharge, Emperor's Children want their Ignores Cover shooting to be better, and Death Guard... well, they don't really care if you're -1 WS.

*The Thousand Sons ones are of course far far worse, since they can't take a Warband and can't take Objective Secured at all.

I think there's an overabundance of importance placed on ObSec personally, but that's coming from someone who mainly plays eternal war missions. I think that the khornates pre game move and extra charge range with the butcherhoarde is definately worth giving up ObSec for since the main issue has always been getting shot up while trying to close the distance and this makes their life much, much easier. Does the +3" to charge make up for the extra points for 'Zerks over MoK CSM and the loss of ObSec? I think so, but it depends on your meta and how you are going to build your army. I'd seriously consider adding a Thousand Sons CAD just for their 12" move relic just to make triple sure that my units were charging first turn, but that's just me (and the fact that I love me some Sons).

Overall, I think the guide is pretty great, well done! It will be interesting to come back to it in say, 6 months and see how things have shaken out if 8th hasn't dropped by then. I look forward to seeing your Sons write up.

Edit, I broke a bunch of stuff so I just decided to break all of it instead of trying to fix it.

[Forum Explorer]

*snip*

Can't you not take any Marks in Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors? How are you getting a Tzeentch Daemon prince. :smallconfused:

[Drasius]

Can't you not take any Marks in Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors? How are you getting a Tzeentch Daemon prince. :smallconfused:

Princes don't have marks, they have "Daemon of [Insert Chaos God Here]"

[Forum Explorer]

Princes don't have marks, they have "Daemon of [Insert Chaos God Here]"

That's really weird. I wonder if they intended that?

[Requizen]

Can't you not take any Marks in Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors? How are you getting a Tzeentch Daemon prince. :smallconfused:

Princes have to be aligned with a god, and don't use Marks.

[DaedalusMkV]

That's really weird. I wonder if they intended that?

They did. Princes need to have a Daemon of X Alignment, there's no option whatsoever for an unaligned Daemon Prince. If Traitor Legions stopped you from doing so, you'd have a weird catch-22 in the rules for them, forcing you to take an upgrade you aren't allowed to take.

[Forum Explorer]

They did. Princes need to have a Daemon of X Alignment, there's no option whatsoever for an unaligned Daemon Prince. If Traitor Legions stopped you from doing so, you'd have a weird catch-22 in the rules for them, forcing you to take an upgrade you aren't allowed to take.

So what happens if you have an unmarked champion become a daemon prince? Which type are they?

[Kris Strife]

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah248/camdaglish/IMG_20161219_121036275_zpsnmz6gsf5.jpg
Sorry for the horrible paint job and maybe bad camera. I have unsteady hands. Also my desk is messy...


For my own games, I used the sprites used in Vassal40k.

GM says thanks to both of you!

[Voidhawk]

We're at page 49. Any thoughts on thread titles for the next one?

[Brookshw]

We're at page 49. Any thoughts on thread titles for the next one?

Demon princes are forever?

Just the FAQs ma'am?

8e or bust?

[DaedalusMkV]

So what happens if you have an unmarked champion become a daemon prince? Which type are they?

None. Luckily for us, it's only during the army list writing stage of the game that Princes must have an Alignment, because the "Daemon of X" upgrade is mandatory. If it happens as a Dark Apotheosis result there's no rule glitch.


Edit: New thread name.

I propose "Chaos can have nice things." As a continuation of the current theme.

[Requizen]

We're at page 49. Any thoughts on thread titles for the next one?

Chaos Finally Get (Some) Nice Things

Volvo Plz Give 8th

[13_CBS]

We're at page 49. Any thoughts on thread titles for the next one?

To celebrate the release of Wrath of Magnus and the "improvements" to the 1k Sons: A Thousand Sucks?

[Tvtyrant]

Warhammer 40k tabletop (#): Mostly H(Armless)
In reference to the redo of the 13th black crusade coming up.

[Caxton]

I propose "Sisters of Saltiness"

[lord_khaine]

Warhammer 40k tabletop (#): Mostly H(Armless)

I support the abbadon joke :smallbiggrin:

[LeSwordfish]

I was going to suggest Drasius Can't Have Nice Things.

(I'll make updates to the Chaos stuff when I'm back at my PC)

[Forum Explorer]

I was going to suggest Drasius Can't Have Nice Things.

(I'll make updates to the Chaos stuff when I'm back at my PC)

I'll support that one. All the chaos legions becoming playable but Thousand Sons has got to sting.

[Grim Portent]

I'll support that one. All the chaos legions becoming playable but Thousand Sons has got to sting.

Even Chaos Beastmen are more playable than 1k Sons. :smalltongue:

I laugh because otherwise I'm going to cry at how bad one of my favorite Legions is. :smallfrown:

[lord_khaine]

I was going to suggest Drasius Can't Have Nice Things.

Now now, we should most likely try and be just a touch nice, and keep personal comments out of the thread titles. Even if it is kinda funny.

[Forum Explorer]

Now now, we should most likely try and be just a touch nice, and keep personal comments out of the thread titles. Even if it is kinda funny.

I see it more as sympathetic then mean. But yeah, I suppose Drasius gets a veto on that idea. If he likes it, then I say we go for it.

[LeSwordfish]

Oh yes, of course - no offense meant, it was entirely intended as sympathy (for both the Sons and the Servo-skulls).

[boomwolf]

I disagree, 1ksons are positively playable, and even rather good (not top tier mind you, but good)

As long as you don't play them as dumbly as the dude in the warhammer live game did. its like he made a list just to show off the models, with zero thought of actually doing well in game, and proceeded to play poorly to boot.

First thing first, you do NOT play 1ksons without a battery. you need a fuel source to light up your psykers. Fortunatly, the panda of tzeenth from WoM is probably the best source of warp dice in the game. its cheap, its powerful and it DOES THE DAMN JOB. for a mere 381 points you can get the lorestealer host with squads of 11 and three heralds in the anarchic. that's 12 more dice, and a whole lot of support elements you dearly needs (disposable bodies, extra psykers, etc)

Then, don't go ham on blessings.
Witchfires have a bad name, but they are your SPECIALTY. the main problem with witchfire is that most armies can't trust to have the right one. 1ksons can trust to have ALL the witchfires. anything you ever need. the other problem-getting denied. yea, you are not getting denied. nobody has the dice to deny you after you start casting shenanigans. nobody should have the dice to compete except other armies that follow the tzeentch ways.
Blessings are good and fine, but many give bonuses that overlap with your existing defenses/attack power. witchfires cover your weaknesses. as for that, do not be ashamed to roll everything on the tzeentch powers. you gotta roll once, might as well increase your odds of the good ones (treason, doombolt and treason are amazing, the flamer and focused witchfire are decent tactical tools)



As for unique 1ksons units.
Do not put points into rubrics more than you got to, they are pretty bad. the only thing remotely decent there is the sorcerer leading the bunch, and even he ain't much. even in a chosen grand coven, they are meh,
Same goes for scarabs. the regular dudes are bodyguards for the sorcerer. only in the chosen grand coven they suddenly become great.
Tazzangors don't really work if you only got a few.
Ahriman needs a battery to support him. he needs to be spamming them witchfires like a good torrent of destruction and with no familiar that means he wants to eat 12 warp dice on his own. 15 if you have a grand coven and can cast a fifth spell. (less if you can siphon)
Magnus needs a battery even above Ahriman. you may be harnessing on a 2+, but you got freaking 15 spells. even if you consider only the good ones you'll need one extra dice per power to reduce the chance of a screwup, and that means you are casting about 8-10 worthy spells (according to the situation), at about 30 warp dice by itself! you need a freaking huge battery to properly utilize his power! fortunatly an army with proper psykers can feed him quite a bit via siphon. if at any given turn magnus has consumed less than 20 dice to produce 5 GREAT spells, you are doing something wrong.



I could go on, but I don't have the time.
1ksons needs to be played AS 1ksons. if you don't adpot your strengths (who are, among other things, throwing insane amount of witchfires around), you'll never get anywhere. you need a battery, you need a quantity of psykers and you need bodies on the ground. you can't play too heavily into your special snowflakes.

[Voidhawk]

Let me see if I've got you right: Ignore Rubrics. Ignore Termis. Ignore Tzaangors. Take a pile of demons, and use their dice to pump witchfires out of Magnus, Ahriman and maybe some sorcerers.

The issue is, that's not Thousand Sons. That's demons, with a Magnus cherry on top. And if you own that many demons producing that many dice, why bother with witchfires (easy to deny, have to roll to hit in many cases) and not just do the standard summoning-circus instead? Everyone already knows how that works, and anyone who wanted to do it is already doing it.

When someone says they want to play "Thousand Sons", they want to play a Legion. Space Marines, dedicated to one of the Four Fell Powers, and who have downright fantastic fluff and colour scheme. Not Magnus and a pile of demon cheerleaders. And if you want to do that, as Drasius and many others have for literally decades, you're s***-out of luck.

[Blackhawk748]

The army that Celestine belongs to - Sisters of Battle, also known as Adeptus Sororitas - is a niche one. It's been around since the late 90's but has had barely any new models released in over 15 years. The last codex released for SoB was also years ago, and it was a pretty crap release, given away free in a magazine with no new rules or units; just a straight conversion to the newer 7th Edition main rulebook.


Slight nitpick Wraith, Sisters got an E Codex in 6th


I propose "Sisters of Saltiness"

I like this one


I was going to suggest Drasius Can't Have Nice Things.

This one is disturbingly true. I think Drasius has pissed off GW somehow.

I kinda want one referenceing Sisters being back after like a decade of nothingness, but i cant think of anything.

[DataNinja]

I kinda want one referenceing Sisters being back after like a decade of nothingness, but i cant think of anything.

"Successful Act of Faith" or something along those lines? :smalltongue:

[boomwolf]

Let me see if I've got you right: Ignore Rubrics. Ignore Termis. Ignore Tzaangors. Take a pile of demons, and use their dice to pump witchfires out of Magnus, Ahriman and maybe some sorcerers.

The issue is, that's not Thousand Sons. That's demons, with a Magnus cherry on top. And if you own that many demons producing that many dice, why bother with witchfires (easy to deny, have to roll to hit in many cases) and not just do the standard summoning-circus instead? Everyone already knows how that works, and anyone who wanted to do it is already doing it.

When someone says they want to play "Thousand Sons", they want to play a Legion. Space Marines, dedicated to one of the Four Fell Powers, and who have downright fantastic fluff and colour scheme. Not Magnus and a pile of demon cheerleaders. And if you want to do that, as Drasius and many others have for literally decades, you're s***-out of luck.

No. You really ignored half I said of these units.

Rubrics, you take because you need to in war coven, but you don't take full squads, you take minimal. Max the sorcerer/rubric ratio.
Scarab also minimum size, as the sorcerer is again the important dude, except this time he's pretty darn good. More squads beats bigger squads.
Taazngors you take in bulk or none at all, they need numbers to work.
And yes, 40k era thousand sons field deamons as standard tactics to back up thier low numbers in fluff as well. They are not the same as they were back during the HH.


The problem is that proper LEGION 1ksons requires a full war coven, and that's just too big for standard games.
At 2500, with a full coven (and a battery. You just need one.) your marines will shine. Them reroll to saves of 1 is huge. Especially in an army with marine armor backed by invul everywhere.

Legions just aren't made for 1850 points. Have you tried HH in that scale? It's flabby.


On another note, summoning circus got taken down a peg now that horrors can't summon.

[Blackhawk748]

The problem is that proper LEGION 1ksons requires a full war coven, and that's just too big for standard games.
At 2500, with a full coven (and a battery. You just need one.) your marines will shine. Them reroll to saves of 1 is huge. Especially in an army with marine armor backed by invul everywhere.

Legions just aren't made for 1850 points. Have you tried HH in that scale? It's flabby.

Except every other Legion (barring World Eaters) works fine in 1850 format and even World Eaters work, just use Daemonkin.


On another note, summoning circus got taken down a peg now that horrors can't summon.

Except they duplicate now, so it doesnt really matter, just take more tax-less Heralds to do your summoning.


"Successful Act of Faith" or something along those lines? :smalltongue:

That works

[Cheesegear]

I'm not Cheese, but yes, if they are the one firing it. I assume that you're looking at the macro cannon/vortex missile option or perhaps the plasma obliterator (with or without the haemotrope reactors)?

Both of those things don't work anymore with the Vindicare. The wording on the Vindicare was changed from 'Shooting attacks' to 'Attacks that roll To Hit', which Blast weapons, don't... Back in Mont'ka, I'll point out. Which at this point was a year ago. Come on, Drasius.


When you summon a daemon unit, you can equip them with Icons for free

I actually forgot that you could do that. Throw in an Aegis Line with a Comms Relay so you can re-roll your Reserves, and Warp Talons are actually pretty good in the Raptor Talon. Don't know about the rest of the Raptors though. Still, if you want to run a Raptor Talon, you're better off with a Night Lords CAD and giving them all Objective Secured and 2+ Cover Saves.


Deadly on a Daemon Prince, though Unwieldy makes it painful

Monstrous Creatures and Walkers ignore the Unwieldy rule.

Thread Titles;
Traitor's Gonna Hate
Space Marines Are Underpowered
Helfrosted on Camera

[Wraith]

Slight nitpick Wraith, Sisters got an E Codex in 6th


The sisters have/had a digital dex that's been confirmed to not be over-ridden by codex imperial agents and that was written for 6th.

I thought that one was a reprint of the White Dwarf version, just as an eBook? Oh well, thanks for correcting me guys; It's even worse than I made it out to be. :smalltongue:


I guess she failed the roll.

I like that; Thrawn failed his, so the SoB getting the same treatment doesn't seem too unlikely. :smallbiggrin:

Far more likely, I suspect, is that there will be a new model, a là Lilieth Hesparex-style, and it will be pure skub amongst the fanbase simply on the grounds that it is new.

Although given the recent non-revelations around the last couple of books, you have inspired me to suggest "Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: We All Failed The Roll" as a thread title, if Drasius should choose to veto the one devised in his honour. :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

I support the abbadon joke :smallbiggrin:

I too support mockery of Abaddon the Failure. :smallamused:

[Cheesegear]

The Guides to Traitor's Hate/Traitor Legions and Imperial Agents has been added to the OP.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I thought "Just the FAQS, Ma'am" was pretty funny, but I think Drasius and the Thousand Sons have earned the nod this time around. It is almost Christmas, after all, and the Thousand Sons should get at least one nice thing :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

World Eaters vs. Khorne Daemonkin
Who has the highest pile of Skulls?

Khorne Daemonkin
Blood for the Blood God! / Blood Tithe; Mainly your goal is to get above 5 BT points for free Summoning...That's it. Oh, and Chariots get to Hammer of Wrath at S7.
Allies; Since Daemonkin don't count as Chaos Marines, they can pick up an AD - or be an AD - to Chaos Marines. Less taxes that way.

World Eaters
Veterans of the Long War; It's free. It gives you Hatred (Space Marines), Adamantium Will and Furious Charge. It also gives you +1 Leadership and Fearless, which doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense...Until your Deny roll fails and you get Psychic Shrieked, or you start taking Leadership checks because the Vehicle you're in starts taking damage.
Boon Rolls; 'Nuff said.

Everything else cancels out. No Psykers is not a problem for either Codex, because each Codex can ally in a Cyclopia Cabal (World Eaters already have the two books required to make it happen, KDK have to go and buy another two books), and both Factions can Ally in the Heralds Anarchic and Summon as much as they want, kind of making the Blood for the Blood God! of KDK kind of redundant.

Khorne Daemonkin; Only 3, maybe 4 of them are good. Incidentally, World Eaters get a few them as standard (no rolls required) or their same version of the Warlord Trait is better.
World Eaters; 5/6 of them are pretty good. Rampage is situational.

Khorne Daemonkin; Blood-Forged Armour is the main, playable Relic in the book. If you're not going to have 2+ Armour, give yourself Eternal Warrior and FNP instead. On a Daemon Prince, this also happens to make them immune to Grey Knight Psilencers and can prevent a Bio-Psyker going "WRYYYY..." with Iron Arm and a Force Weapon. Kor'lath has its uses, but it's double the points of an Axe of Khorne, and, turns out, losing D3 Wounds per turn off a Bloodthirster is really bad.
World Eaters; Axe of Blind Fury, it's cheap, and it's downside is negligible because WS doesn't matter. Talisman of Burning Blood is the new meta buster.

Chaos Lords: Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut and Sigil/Aura cancel out.

KDK; Axe of Khorne, Melta Bombs, Blood-Forged Armour - 85 Points
WE; Axe of Blind Fury, Melta Bombs - 40 Points

45 Point difference on the KDK. :smallconfused:
The KDK Lord has Eternal Warrior, FNP and causes Instant Death on To Wounds of '6'. The WE Lord has a crap-ton of attacks with Furious Charge as standard. The 45 Point difference also allows the WE Lord to grab a Gift of Mutation, just in case he rolls #2 on his Warlord Trait, giving him another free attack.

The other option for breaking the meta (i.e; Charging on Turn 1, you don't get shot at);
WE; Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Talisman of Burning Blood - 65 Points

Daemon Prince: Flight and Armour* cancel out. Remember that all MC's Melee attacks are AP2, and that MCs ignore Unwieldy.

KDK; Goredrinker (30), Blade of Endless Bloodshed (35), if Warlord, Blood-Forged Armour (*30, you wont be buying Armour).
WE; Berzerker Glaive/Gorefather - 30 Points

Goredrinker (the only equivalent points cost) powers you up as the game goes on. The Berzerker Glaive gives no downsides to a Daemon Prince, because they're not Independent Characters anyway, it becomes AP2 so that's not a problem, and gives your Prince FNP and IWND, basically cancelling out Blood-Forged Armour. Although you'll never make up for BFA's Eternal Warrior handout. The WE Prince has Adamantium Will as standard, but, the KDK Prince can pick up a Collar of Khorne for better, but that just means that they're more expensive. The KDK Prince is negligibly more expensive (with the option for Eternal Warrior), but a WE Prince can have bajiliion attacks, or Armourbane and Decapitation.

Daemon Princes are about equal. But, that doesn't mean anything, because Daemon Princes are bad because they don't Summon. A 'Prince geared for Melee, means being on the ground, which means getting shot at. So, while equivalent, they still both suck. There's a reason the only Daemon Princes that exist are Nurgle or Tzeentch.

Khorne Daemonkin
Heralds: No.
Blood Throne: No.
Skulltaker: WEs have Kharn. No.

Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury: No.
BT of Insensate Rage: He strikes at I1 with Str-D. World Eaters can not compete with this.
Wrath of Khorne: No.

World Eaters
Kharn the Betrayer: Sure. Most players actually consider him undercosted. If you have a friend with the Special Edition Khorne Daemonkin book with Kharn on the front, make sure to laugh at them for a long time.
Warpsmith: No.
Dark Apostle: No.

Summary:
KDK Warlords get access to Eternal Warrior, and that's pretty important. Other than that - really important - fact, WEs Characters are generally cheaper and more killy than KDK. Daemon Princes are equivalent, but it's moot. World Eaters have Kharn, and he's great. But Talisman of Burning Blood really is simply that good. But, your CAD has 2 HQ slots, and you can always take Kharn as well as a Lord or two.
KDKs, ultimately, have D-Thirsters. Unfortunately, to make D-Thirsters useful, they really want to be Invisible, which ultimately means that at some point you're going to have to take Psykers, and the Heralds Anarchic aren't going to cut it either, because they don't have access to Telepathy. To the Cyclopia Cabal! Buy two more books!

But, the real point is, KDKs one advantage over World Eaters, is a Daemon unit, not a Marine.

Chaos Cultists: Mark of Khorne cancels out, but, Daemonkin only have to take them in units of 8, so you save 12 Points when trying to min-max!

Chaos Space Marines: Yeah. No contest. WE ones Hatred (Space Marines), Adamantium Will and Furious Charge, +1 Leadership and Fearless. WE Chaos Space Marines are better than Berzerkers. KDK also get a slight hit because they must take minimum squads of 8. While WEs can take minimum squads of 5 - although it's not clear why you'd want to.

Berzerkers: Both Factions' suck compared to WE Chaos Space Marines. World Eaters win again. But probably not in the way you want them to. Same as Daemon Princes; World Eaters' ones are better, but they still suck anyway.

Khorne Daemonkin
Bloodletters: They're 10 Points each with an Invulnerable save. They all have Power Swords. The Power Sword the guy is holding is worth more points than the Daemon holding it. Can also pick up a Banner of Blood which counts as a Locator Beacon for units with the Daemon rule, it does other things. But no-one cares. Which works great for Summoning stuff. Remember your Heralds Anarchic.

Summary;
KDK get access to units of 10 Point Power Swords, and can min-max harder with Cultists.
If you want the 'Marines' in 'Chaos Space Marines', once again, you're better off with World Eaters.

Possessed: No.
Chaos Terminators: No.

Khorne Daemonkin
Bloodcrushers: Generally considered overcosted (PROTIP: Eldar broke the curve), but it's not like you've got anything else to play with. Put in a Juggerlord and roll out. Completely outclassed by Flesh Hounds. Most of the time.

World Eaters
Chosen: No.
Helbrutes: No.
Mutilators: No.

Summary;
Oh look. Chaos win by having Bloodcrushers (and they're not even that good!). Another Daemon unit.

Chaos Spawn: Since a WE Juggerlord doesn't have Bloodcrushers to ride around with, may as well.
Rhino: For what it's worth, KDK can take empty Rhinos in the Fast slot.
Chaos Bikers: WE ones Hatred (Space Marines), Adamantium Will and Furious Charge, +1 Leadership and Fearless.
Raptors: No.
Warp Talons: WE ones Hatred (Space Marines), Adamantium Will and Furious Charge, +1 Leadership and Fearless. Are you seeing a pattern yet?
Heldrakes: Same.

Khorne Daemonkin
Flesh Hounds: 2 Wounds each, T4 (get doubled out by the same things that double out Bloodcrushers for almost one third the points). They have Scout, Scout is passed to squads (e.g; a Juggerlord). Scout is for winners. Remembering that Scouting is optional, and you don't have to do it if you'd prefer to Charge in Turn 1, because your opponent has Infiltrated, or Scouted right in front of your Flesh Hounds for some reason (because they won the roll to Scout first and did a stupid), or, you're going second and your opponent brought Drop Pods.

Summary;
KDK get Flesh Hounds. One of the strongest units in the book for only 16 points per model with Scout. The only viable unit in the KDK book over World Eaters, is another Daemon unit. No. Really. If you aren't seeing a pattern...Fine. I'll spell it out. Pretty much every Marine unit in the World Eaters' list, gets Veterans of the Long War for free, which automatically puts them head and shoulders above Marine units in the KDK book, because Traitor Legions decided that Veterans should do a whole bunch of other things, and also be free. Which immediately shafts everything that even remotely looks like a Chaos unit that can't take Veterans (e.g; Khorne Daemonkin).

inb4; I know Warp Talons are Daemons, I didn't make the rules. But, Warp Talons gain Fearless, and Melee units without Fearless (or at least ATSKNF) are terrible. Warp Talons are still pretty bad in both books because they aren't Tzeentch. KDK Warp Talons are slightly better due to Skull Cannons in the same book.

Chaos Land Raider: No.
Forgefiend: They're 5 Points extra for the Blood for the Blood God! rule. Negligible difference.
Maulerfiend: Negligible difference.
Defiler: No.

Khorne Daemonkin
Soul Grinder: Save your Heavy slots for other things. Use the Formation out of Curse of the Wulfen, and, if you wanted to actually do that, well, you could do it with WEs also.
Helbrute: Putting them in the Heavy slot didn't help. Moving from Elites is always bad, even if you aren't bad to begin with, and Helbrutes are.

Skull Cannons: Skill Cannons are S8, AP5, Ignores Cover. The S8, Ignores Cover is nice for shooting at Vehicles. But when shooting at Infantry is also good, but not because you're going to kill something. Shooting a Skull Cannon at a unit, means that any unit that Charges the hit unit, gains the effects of Assault Grenades; This means all your Daemons units (and Cultists), which, rather infamously, don't come with Grenades, now get to strike at their Initiative value. Your Bloodletters get to actually use their Power Swords, Warp Talons get to rip face on time, and Flesh Hounds get their attacks in. Skull Cannons are almost mandatory in a KDK army due to buff they bring; Grenades.

World Eaters
Havocs: They're Fearless, and that's really good for a unit that's going to spend nearly the entire game <7" away from your board edge.
Obliterators: Fearless, which is also good for a unit that's going to be <3 models large.
Chaos Vindicator: Same price as a Skull Cannon, and basically better.
Chaos Predator: Better than nothing?

Summary;
KDK get Soul Grinders. But Curse of the Wulfen handed out a tax-free Formation of Soul Grinders for all Chaos players. Skull Cannons are only really taken in KDK because all the Daemon units in the book really like having them around for the Grenade buff. S8, Ignores Cover actually is pretty good, though.

I'm only going to talk about the ones that matter.

Khorne Daemonkin
Gorepack: Units of Bikers and Flesh Hounds. If you give the Bikers x2 Meltaguns and a Combi-Melta, they kind of stop being taxes - especially when you roll #3 on Strategic. Flesh Hounds have Scout and are great. The Flesh Hounds gain Hammer of Wrath, which means they no longer need Grenades to be effective. Everything has Move Through Cover, which means no taking Terrain checks on your Bikes when you scream them up the board to get into Melta range. Preferred Enemy (Psykers) will rarely ever not be useful. Either max out the Bikers Meltaguns, or max out the Flesh Hounds. Both are solid, and neither of the units are really taxes, because the whole Formation moves 12" a turn and never gets slowed down.

World Eaters
Chaos Warband: Did you catch the part where Veterans also hands out Fearless? For free. Yeah. Fearless ObSec is for winners. Done and done. Both the Black Crusade Detachment and World Eaters Butcherhorde have the Warband as Core choices, and are therefore immediately better than the Blood Host Detachment. Fearless Objective Secured is a Core Choice. Game, set, match.

TL;DR -
Everything good in a KDK Detachment is a Daemon...Or Cultists.
Traitor Legions made it so that Veterans of the Long War did more than it said on the tin, and then gave it to every Marine unit (and Daemon Princes and Warp Talons) for free. KDK can't take Veterans of the Long War.

[Caxton]

Anybody else watch the Death Guard vs Alpha Legion battle report from Miniwargaming? Unusually for MWG, both lists were pretty much what I wanted to see in action, though the chosen mission was horrible. DG were in a Vectorium with War Band and a Plague Colony. Alpha Legion had their Insurgency Force with Lost and Damned. My thoughts:

-The double cultists from AL possibility seems to be the RAW, fluffy, powerful and FUN interpretation (an unusual combination!). I think any debate on this issue will be resolved swiftly.

-That said, I don't think it's the win button some people are thinking. Cultists just aren't able to remove threats, and are extremely easy to remove. Without a real threat on the table to knock ObSec units off objectives, I think the list will struggle.

-Mindveil is the real hotness for AL.

-DG spawn make nice little tarpits.

-Non-Fearless Legions may not be viable...

[DaedalusMkV]

DG were in a Vectorium with War Band and a Plague Colony.

This is not a legal army...

Both are Core choices, meaning you have no Auxiliary. Unless he had a Spawn unit as well? Either way, Plague Colony is terrible and should definitely not be used under any circumstances.

[Cheesegear]

Anybody else watch the Death Guard vs Alpha Legion battle report from Miniwargaming?

1 minute in and I'm already facepalming. I hate them so much.

Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg4rjMhWdF8) a guy who does Battle Reports in Australia, and he does it without sounding like he has a mental illness. Probably because he's not also trying to sell you stuff with how EXCITING the new stuff is.
Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXQQw7NlXYg&t=1817s) some more World Eater stuff.


That said, I don't think it's the win button some people are thinking.

Because they weren't playing Maelstrom. They were playing a modified version of Eternal War, where every unit must survive until the end of the game.
Death Guard win Eternal War. Every time.


Cultists just aren't able to remove threats

Because their job is stand on an Objective, in cover. If you make them move out of Cover, they die. Which the mission forced the Alpha Legion to do, hence the auto-lose.


Without a real threat on the table to knock ObSec units off objectives, I think the list will struggle.

No ****. But you don't play Eternal War with units that die easily and can't kill things.

You know what I saw in the battle report that made me turn the video off after 5 minutes?

"Let's play the best Eternal War Legion against the best Maelstrom Legion, but play modified Eternal War, and pretend that Alpha Legion have a chance. THIS WILL BE SO EXCITING!"


Non-Fearless Legions may not be viable...

Not in Eternal War they're not where the goal is to survive until the end of the game. :smallsigh:

[LeSwordfish]

Traitor's Gonna Hate

This one gets my vote, if Drasius exercises his right not to have his pain memorialised.

[Tome]

Plastic sisters confirmed! :D

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OPL6_9JTo0M/WFjnYPZ2esI/AAAAAAABKsA/i3-2qB0x26E3vuhiQuyW8LhbO4WJRQD9ACLcB/s400/1482220032843.jpg
Along with other cool stuff. (http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/seen-pics-of-plastic-sisters.html)

[boomwolf]

I'm almost sorry I just got into 1ksons.
Really can't afford sisters too right now.

Celestine looks amazing.

[hamishspence]

I suspect tons of Blood Angel players will be buying Celestine just for the jump pack conversion possibilities.

Angel's Wing relic is supposed to be a very good option in the Blood Angels army list anyway.

[LeSwordfish]

Thousand Sons
Everything has to be Mark Of Tzeentch. Ah. Oh dear. An awful lot of things don't care about that. You get +1 invulnerable save when blessed. That's kind of good, but since half your powers are Tzeentch and don’t have many blessings, you don't get it actually that often. You and Space Wolves hate each other - and this time, that sucks, since Space Wolves are way more likely to be capitalising on that than you are.

You can take Rubric Marines as Troops. Rubric Marines aren't very good, though one squad of them as your AP3 caddies can be pretty good.

Thousand Sons cast powers. You really need something to boost your Warp Charge a bunch, like a ton of allied daemons. That’s why most Thousand Sons lists you see are like 25% Sons and 75% Daemons Of Tzeentch. Daemons are better, so… just take more of them. Like all of them. Thousand Sons aren’t good. That’s the honest part: if you want to play Thousand Sons, figure out some way to use a different ruleset. Deathwatch have lots of librarians and AP3 ammo. Sternguard in a First Company Formation have Fearless and lots of AP3 ammo. Grey Knights are all psykers.

Warlord Traits
1: Adamantium Will isn’t good - it doesn’t help except maledictions or witchfires, and you should have a trillion dice to deny with anyway.
2: Eternal Warrior. That's very nice, especially since you should also have a good Invulnerable.
3: Crap.
4: One extra Psychic Power. That's not bad.
5: You get Deep Strike - or, more importantly, if you have it, you don't Scatter. That's good, but if you didn't plan for it you won't get much out of this.
6: The ground near you is Difficult to enemies. You don’t want to be charged so this is helpful, but it’s not going to do that much.

Artefacts
Astral Grimoire: Give something nearby the Jump type. That's actually a pretty neat trick - don't bother deep striking, just take some Jump terminators.
Seers Bane: It's at-initiative AP2! It's also basically Strength 10, rolled against your opponent's Leadership - so, wounding on 2/3/4+. However, it still uses Toughness for Instant Death, which means Instant Death'ing a lot of things. This is not bad at all, but Forty Points is way too much, especially in a force that kind of doesn't want to be in close combat. How come this is the only At-Initiative AP2 in the entire book?
Helm Of The Third Eye: Again, good, since you really don't want to be charged. This can also give your Rubricae the chance to Overwatch, which you want.
Staff Of Arcane Compulsion: This is actually neat: You really don’t want to be charged, and this and cover together give your opponent a -4 to the roll.
Coruscator: It gives your Inferno Bolt Pistol Blast and Soul Blaze. That’s not at all worth twenty points.
Athaenian Scrolls: Can prevent Deny The Witch rolls. That's useful if your opponent is really good at them, but so few opponents are. It could be useful against Eldar, but in that matchup you’re really just trying to be alive at the end of turn two.

New Units
Exalted Sorcerors
Over what you'd spend on an equivalent Sorceror, these guys have Fearless, a one-shot lascannon and +1 Ballistic Skill, for sixty points. That's an awful lot - however, it does mean you can bring a bunch of Fearless ICs without needing Lords.

Tzaangors
Cultists with WS4 and the Mark Of Tzeentch for +3 points a model. They're the only way to get a lot of Cultists in the special Thousand Sons detachments, but wow, do you really give a **** about the weapon skill of your cultists? 3ppm worth of ****? Just take ordinary cultists - spoiler alert, the special Thousand Sons detachment is bad.

Rubric Marines
They're still super goddamn expensive, especially because they have to take a Sorcerer - and the Sorcerer is tied solely to the distinctly underwhelming Tzeentch table. Neither 4++ or AP3 is bad, but you're paying so much for it. You can now take Warpflamers (so goddamn expensive) or Soulreaper Cannons (so goddamn expensive, and only one per ten(!) models.) There's really not much you can do with these guys: however, one squad of them isn't too bad.

Scarab Occult Terminators
The sorceror gets one of his rolls on a table that doesn't suck. However, terminators aren't very good, and these guys are very expensive terminators that don't do much to suck less. At least they aren't Slow And Purposeful too.

Magnus The Red
He's a flying monster that can cast pretty much anything... so long as it's from the Tzeentch or Change table. That sucks. He also has a Str-D beam, but that's warp charge five! What's the Warp Charge cost of Vortex Of Doom? He gets a good warlord trait, though. He’s not a Gargantuan so can’t stomp and can be stomped, is affected by poison as normal

All the below formations have the Favoured of Tzeentch rule: if you take the maximum number of units, you get to re-roll 1s on the Invulnerable Save. The maximum number of units is nine, usually, which makes this kind of a rip-off, since that's a ludicrous amount of points, usually on things that aren't very good.

War Cabal
Rubrics, Termies, at least two of various kinds of sorcerers. If you successfully cast a power, you get re-rolls to hit of 1. Not even a little bit worth losing Objective Secured.

War Coven
A bunch of sorcerers - at least four. You pick a BRB discipline, and get 3+ to cast it. “Oh wow, this is comparable to a cyclopea cabal” you think? No. No, it is not. You pay the Mark Of Tzeentch tax on everything, you have to take at least one power apiece from the Tzeentch table, and if you’re taking four sorcerers you probably don’t want them all rolling on the same table, in which case at least a few are getting nothing.

Tzaangor Warherd
Tzaangors are bad. Fleet and run-and-charge make them less bad, but they’re not going to do much in close combat.

Sekhmet Conclave
Fear is bad. +1 Toughness is decent… if only there was some other way in the chaos book to have Toughness 5 Terminators… for less per model… and without needing to huddle each other… and with proper options… ah, if only.

Ahriman’s Exiles
It’s a war coven, but if all the sorcerers are Exalted and Ahriman is included, you cast on a 3+. Ahriman is pretty good, but you’re paying a minimum of 180 points to Exalt the other sorcerers, and it has all the other problems of the Coven.

Rehati War Sect
It’s Ahriman’s Exiles, but with Magnus instead of Ahriman, and you can take Daemon Princes instead of the sorcerers. Everything has to be Mastery Level 3, and you get “cast on 3+” and Magnus’ “can target every unit” rule. Again, that’s an awful awful lot of taxes for some underwhelming rules.

Grand Coven
This is the Thousand Sons mega-detachment. You don’t get anything not from the Thousand Sons formations list - so no Warband. You can take single Vehicles as Auxillary choices. In exchange for taking either the (bad) cabal or the (bad) conclave as core, you can re-roll Perils and attempt to manifest an additional power each per turn. This isn’t worth it at all.

You can do better with the Black Crusade detachment, since you can take a single squad of Rubricae as an auxillary choice, and then you can take good things for the rest of the army. At which point you're not really taking Thousand Sons are you? Look, its not possible to do this well.

Tactical Objectives
11: Kill Nine models. This is way harder than “kill a unit” since you can’t just pop a rhino.
12: Psychic Supremacy: Deny The Witch. You should have enough psychic dice to just throw them all at the first power, or you could play more conservatively like normal and still have a pretty decent chance. Fear the smart opponent who has psykers (so you can’t discard this) but chooses not to cast.
13: Destroy an Armies Of The Imperium unit. Either easy or basically impossible?
14: Score D3 points if your opponent controls no objectives. This will be really hard, since you have bugger-all for fast units - unless you’re allying a ton of daemons.
15: Destroy an enemy unit in the psychic phase. The best thing you can be doing is casting a trillion witchfires, so this is actually reasonably possible.
16: Manifest three or six powers of different types. This is actually reasonably possible, since the Tzeentch table has five types, and the witchfires count as different types.

Aside from the fact that you're handicapped by being Thousand Sons, this table isn't bad at all.

Thousand Sons aren't good. You can make them better with a hefty allied force of Daemons, but since they're worse than Daemons... look, try and find some other rules somewhere you can use for them instead. You can do anything you want from the Space Marine book.

(I'm going to do some reshuffling - split the original into two posts, with Traitor's Hate and the formations in one, and the legions in the other.)

[Ricky S]

I no longer care I missed out on metal celestine. The new model looks amazing! Just have to try and conserve my money until they come out.

Edit: how about "The Saints are coming" for the thread title?

[bluntpencil]

I suspect tons of Blood Angel players will be buying Celestine just for the jump pack conversion possibilities.

Angel's Wing relic is supposed to be a very good option in the Blood Angels army list anyway.

Dante does need a better jump pack...

[hamishspence]

New Units
Exalted Sorcerors
Over what you'd spend on an equivalent Sorceror, these guys have Fearless, a one-shot lascannon and +1 Ballistic Skill, for sixty points. That's an awful lot - however, it does mean you can bring a bunch of Fearless ICs without needing Lords.


Presumably, one of their selling points is that they come with Divination access, whereas normal Sorcerers don't.

[Blackhawk748]

Plastic sisters confirmed! :D

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OPL6_9JTo0M/WFjnYPZ2esI/AAAAAAABKsA/i3-2qB0x26E3vuhiQuyW8LhbO4WJRQD9ACLcB/s400/1482220032843.jpg
Along with other cool stuff. (http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/seen-pics-of-plastic-sisters.html)

Those Seraphim look so nice, but god why the mini flying stands??? That will be such a....oh wait i have like 20 Seraphim already. Anyway.... PLASTIC SISTERS OMIGARD!!!!!

[hamishspence]

They might be Celestine's personal "Celestial Guard" - that's something I've seen already speculated.

[LCP]

It's nice to see plastic sisters but those are the epitome of the problems with modern GW sculpts to me. They got so carried away with their EZ-snap scroll flying stand shenanigans that they forgot to give the two bodyguards elbows. And those paper craft wings look much worse than her old creepy cherubs.

[Tome]

Higher quality images have also started showing up. The bodyguards do, in fact, have elbows. :smalltongue:

I'll almost certainly be picking this one up - and hopefully the rest of the plastic sisters that are going to accompany it. Even if I never use her as Celestine she'll make a wonderful base for a conversion.

[Drasius]

Thread Titles;
Traitor's Gonna Hate

I like this.


I was going to suggest Drasius Can't Have Nice Things.

I like this one better.


I disagree, 1ksons are positively playable, and even rather good (not top tier mind you, but good)

As long as you don't play them as dumbly as the dude in the warhammer live game did. its like he made a list just to show off the models, with zero thought of actually doing well in game, and proceeded to play poorly to boot.

First thing first, you do NOT play 1ksons without a battery. you need a fuel source to light up your psykers. Fortunatly, the panda of tzeenth from WoM is probably the best source of warp dice in the game. its cheap, its powerful and it DOES THE DAMN JOB. for a mere 381 points you can get the lorestealer host with squads of 11 and three heralds in the anarchic. that's 12 more dice, and a whole lot of support elements you dearly needs (disposable bodies, extra psykers, etc)

Then, don't go ham on blessings.
Witchfires have a bad name, but they are your SPECIALTY. the main problem with witchfire is that most armies can't trust to have the right one. 1ksons can trust to have ALL the witchfires. anything you ever need. the other problem-getting denied. yea, you are not getting denied. nobody has the dice to deny you after you start casting shenanigans. nobody should have the dice to compete except other armies that follow the tzeentch ways.
Blessings are good and fine, but many give bonuses that overlap with your existing defenses/attack power. witchfires cover your weaknesses. as for that, do not be ashamed to roll everything on the tzeentch powers. you gotta roll once, might as well increase your odds of the good ones (treason, doombolt and treason are amazing, the flamer and focused witchfire are decent tactical tools)

As for unique 1ksons units.
Do not put points into rubrics more than you got to, they are pretty bad. the only thing remotely decent there is the sorcerer leading the bunch, and even he ain't much. even in a chosen grand coven, they are meh,
Same goes for scarabs. the regular dudes are bodyguards for the sorcerer. only in the chosen grand coven they suddenly become great.
Tazzangors don't really work if you only got a few.
Ahriman needs a battery to support him. he needs to be spamming them witchfires like a good torrent of destruction and with no familiar that means he wants to eat 12 warp dice on his own. 15 if you have a grand coven and can cast a fifth spell. (less if you can siphon)
Magnus needs a battery even above Ahriman. you may be harnessing on a 2+, but you got freaking 15 spells. even if you consider only the good ones you'll need one extra dice per power to reduce the chance of a screwup, and that means you are casting about 8-10 worthy spells (according to the situation), at about 30 warp dice by itself! you need a freaking huge battery to properly utilize his power! fortunatly an army with proper psykers can feed him quite a bit via siphon. if at any given turn magnus has consumed less than 20 dice to produce 5 GREAT spells, you are doing something wrong.

I could go on, but I don't have the time.
1ksons needs to be played AS 1ksons. if you don't adpot your strengths (who are, among other things, throwing insane amount of witchfires around), you'll never get anywhere. you need a battery, you need a quantity of psykers and you need bodies on the ground. you can't play too heavily into your special snowflakes.

So: To summarise, witchfires are bad but witchfires are great, Rubricae are bad, Scarabs are bad, Tzaangors are bad, Ahriman is OK with an out of codex battery, Magnus is unplayable without an out of codex battery, and none of the people who have been playing Sons for years have any idea how to play the army or what their strengths or weakness are. So remind me again why you're saying that TSons are playable when you really mean that the Rehati War Sect or Ahriman Exiles are mildly playable and easily countered if you take more than half your army as daemons that exist as nothing more than wound markers, so they can generate dice for 2 other models because the psychic phase is a complete mess and the Thousand Sons rules don't work to let them be effective in any phase of the game? If Rubricae are bad (they are) and Scarabs are bad (they are) then why on earth would you take a war coven? If all you want is Magnus and Ahriman, then you're taking a CAD with those two and 100 points of cultists, though now ahriman is back to casting on 4's with no re-rolls like a chump. Paying 150 points for 1 warp charge from an aspiring sorceror or 125 points per warp charge from the scarab sarge is crazy when you can pay 22.5 points per warp charge for the heralds anarchic who are, realistically, just as resiliant as a squad of thousand sons rubricae but generate 6 times the warp charge for less points.

Even then, Ahriman's Exiles isn't really very good. Sure, casting on 3's with Ahriman and 3 exalted sorcerors seems like a great thing, but then you stop and think about the fact that you've paid a minimum of 710 points, more likely 830 - 950 points depending on if you want discs or not for 4 models who can't support their warp charge addition on their own and are neither a core nor Aux choice so now you have to choose between taking another formation or CAD where you need to shell out for another HQ choice and some troops just so you can have a squad for the sorcs to join so they don't get singled out and splatted or a Daemon formation that will let them power their abilities but leave them out in the cold on their own to get focused down. Same thing for the Rehati War Sect, except now it's 1140 points minimum, more like 1250 - 1370 depending on how many discs you want, again, for 4 models but Magnus has even more of a warp charge addition than Ahriman. Compare either of these to a Riptide Wing (with or without Drone Net support) and ask yourself why you are bothering.

[Requizen]

Plastic sisters confirmed! :D

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OPL6_9JTo0M/WFjnYPZ2esI/AAAAAAABKsA/i3-2qB0x26E3vuhiQuyW8LhbO4WJRQD9ACLcB/s400/1482220032843.jpg
Along with other cool stuff. (http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/seen-pics-of-plastic-sisters.html)

Carnifex
Sized
Named
Arch-magos

I sort of want AdMech now......

[boomwolf]

Many mistakes in your post LeSwordFish. no wonder you think so poorly of them.
I'll correct what I can spot.
My notes are in red, as its too much of a bother to split it all and I don't have the time right now.



Thousand Sons
Everything has to be Mark Of Tzeentch. Ah. Oh dear. An awful lot of things don't care about that. You get +1 invulnerable save when blessed. That's kind of good, but since half your powers are Tzeentch and don’t have many blessings, you don't get it actually that often. You and Space Wolves hate each other - and this time, that sucks, since Space Wolves are way more likely to be capitalising on that than you are.

every 1ksons psyker has a blessing due to having force weapons. you can use that power any time you want even if you are not in combat if you want that 3+ invul for your dudes.

You can take Rubric Marines as Troops. Rubric Marines aren't very good, though one squad of them as your AP3 caddies can be pretty good.

Alas, true.

Thousand Sons cast powers. You really need something to boost your Warp Charge a bunch, like a ton of allied daemons. That’s why most Thousand Sons lists you see are like 25% Sons and 75% Daemons Of Tzeentch. Daemons are better, so… just take more of them. Like all of them. Thousand Sons aren’t good. That’s the honest part: if you want to play Thousand Sons, figure out some way to use a different ruleset. Deathwatch have lots of librarians and AP3 ammo. Sternguard in a First Company Formation have Fearless and lots of AP3 ammo. Grey Knights are all psykers.

You're wrong, 1ksons ARE pretty good. they are just different, and need a few horrors around to suck warp dice off.

Warlord Traits
1: Adamantium Will isn’t good - it doesn’t help except maledictions or witchfires, and you should have a trillion dice to deny with anyway.
2: Eternal Warrior. That's very nice, especially since you should also have a good Invulnerable.
3: Crap.
4: One extra Psychic Power. That's not bad.
5: You get Deep Strike - or, more importantly, if you have it, you don't Scatter. That's good, but if you didn't plan for it you won't get much out of this.
6: The ground near you is Difficult to enemies. You don’t want to be charged so this is helpful, but it’s not going to do that much.


1 also lets you reroll one dice on a DtW tests. and given the amount of good maledictions lately (and quite a few armies use witchfires despite what you think. shrike is the go-to answer of many armies to big scary monsters.), its not horrible, just poor.
3 is pretty lousy indeed, but you should let people judge for themselves rather than announce it, perhaps they would see a use you do not. what it does is give the warlord and unit the ability to move through cover like necron wraiths. no movement penalties and no charge penalties through terrain.
6 also makes every run/turboboost/flatout/charge within 12" of your warlord cause dangerous terrain tests, that's freaking sweet as it makes charging you and/or eldar dancing shenanigans risk deaths.

Artefacts
Astral Grimoire: Give something nearby the Jump type. That's actually a pretty neat trick - don't bother deep striking, just take some Jump terminators. if in a CAD, you can also get jump oblits for funzies.
Seers Bane: It's at-initiative AP2! It's also basically Strength 10, rolled against your opponent's Leadership - so, wounding on 2/3/4+. However, it still uses Toughness for Instant Death, which means Instant Death'ing a lot of things. This is not bad at all, but Forty Points is way too much, especially in a force that kind of doesn't want to be in close combat. How come this is the only At-Initiative AP2 in the entire book? actually, i can see ways to make a scary 1ksons melee unit, this is an interesting pick.
Helm Of The Third Eye: Again, good, since you really don't want to be charged. This can also give your Rubricae the chance to Overwatch, which you want.
Staff Of Arcane Compulsion: This is actually neat: You really don’t want to be charged, and this and cover together give your opponent a -4 to the roll.
Coruscator: It gives your Inferno Bolt Pistol Blast and Soul Blaze. That’s not at all worth twenty points.
Athaenian Scrolls: Can prevent Deny The Witch rolls. That's useful if your opponent is really good at them, but so few opponents are. It could be useful against Eldar, but in that matchup you’re really just trying to be alive at the end of turn two.

New Units
Exalted Sorcerors
Over what you'd spend on an equivalent Sorceror, these guys have Fearless, a one-shot lascannon and +1 Ballistic Skill, for sixty points. That's an awful lot - however, it does mean you can bring a bunch of Fearless ICs without needing Lords.
You forgot the come stock with AoDG, so its 45 points over a sorcerer. also, you forgot inferno bolts (meh), divination picks (not great for 1ksons actually), but most important you forgot +1W, +1I and +1A. this is basically a chaos lord and a sorcerer rolled into one and geared up. he's GOOD at CC. he's a psyker, and he gives important AT shot at unlimited range. he's good. very good.

Tzaangors
Cultists with WS4 and the Mark Of Tzeentch for +3 points a model. They're the only way to get a lot of Cultists in the special Thousand Sons detachments, but wow, do you really give a **** about the weapon skill of your cultists? 3ppm worth of ****? Just take ordinary cultists - spoiler alert, the special Thousand Sons detachment is bad. you forgot +1T and that you don't have to buy a team leader. if you care not for the pistol (you don't), a squad of 10 costs only 10 more than a squad of tzeentch cultists. fair enough.

Rubric Marines
They're still super goddamn expensive, especially because they have to take a Sorcerer - and the Sorcerer is tied solely to the distinctly underwhelming Tzeentch table. Neither 4++ or AP3 is bad, but you're paying so much for it. You can now take Warpflamers (so goddamn expensive) or Soulreaper Cannons (so goddamn expensive, and only one per ten(!) models.) There's really not much you can do with these guys: however, one squad of them isn't too bad.
Unfortunatly accurate. except Tzeentch powers being underwhelming. the update made the tzeentch table quite impressive.

Scarab Occult Terminators
The sorceror gets one of his rolls on a table that doesn't suck. However, terminators aren't very good, and these guys are very expensive terminators that don't do much to suck less. At least they aren't Slow And Purposeful too.
Again, tzeentch table is rather good now. the chance at treason alone is amazing. heck, I practically roll all dice at Tzeentch unless I need shrike or if the enemy spam tanks and I'd go for hertek. as for sucking less, the sargent has a true sorcerer statline, at cheaper than what a terminator sorcerr tends to cost. their inferno bolts are not amazing, but helpful, and having fearless is a nice touch. these are decent at the very least.

Magnus The Red
He's a flying monster that can cast pretty much anything... so long as it's from the Tzeentch or Change table. That sucks. He also has a Str-D beam, but that's warp charge five! What's the Warp Charge cost of Vortex Of Doom? He gets a good warlord trait, though. He’s not a Gargantuan so can’t stomp and can be stomped, is affected by poison as normal
The ability to pick and choose what powers to cast from both these tables means he got himself a toolbox he's got summoning, buffing, tons of AP1-2 attacks, so D attacks, anti-horde spells, etc. manifesting at 2+ and having assured power siphon and never suffering perils means that generating the power to fuel his attacks isn't all that hard, even the WC5 D beam. and do you seriously claim THATS too expensive? a D beam is outright bonkers. no power in the game comes close to it in how destructive it can be. that ALONE outguns a wraithknight be far. He's a beast, just requires a bit of intelligence to use properly.

All the below formations have the Favoured of Tzeentch rule: if you take the maximum number of units, you get to re-roll 1s on the Invulnerable Save. The maximum number of units is nine, usually, which makes this kind of a rip-off, since that's a ludicrous amount of points, usually on things that aren't very good.unless the game is huge, than this ability is rather amazing. especially for scarabs.

War Cabal
Rubrics, Termies, at least two of various kinds of sorcerers. If you successfully cast a power, you get re-rolls to hit of 1. Not even a little bit worth losing Objective Secured.
unless in a grand coven at least.

War Coven
A bunch of sorcerers - at least four. You pick a BRB discipline, and get 3+ to cast it. “Oh wow, this is comparable to a cyclopea cabal” you think? No. No, it is not. You pay the Mark Of Tzeentch tax on everything, you have to take at least one power apiece from the Tzeentch table, and if you’re taking four sorcerers you probably don’t want them all rolling on the same table, in which case at least a few are getting nothing.
Again dissing the tzeentch table. also, if you view MoT as such a tax, maybe this just isn't the army for you.

Tzaangor Warherd
Tzaangors are bad. Fleet and run-and-charge make them less bad, but they’re not going to do much in close combat.
well, yea. they are tarpits. you use this to stick them where you need them.

Sekhmet Conclave
Fear is bad. +1 Toughness is decent… if only there was some other way in the chaos book to have Toughness 5 Terminators… for less per model… and without needing to huddle each other… and with proper options… ah, if only.

Ahriman’s Exiles
It’s a war coven, but if all the sorcerers are Exalted and Ahriman is included, you cast on a 3+. Ahriman is pretty good, but you’re paying a minimum of 180 points to Exalt the other sorcerers, and it has all the other problems of the Coven.

Rehati War Sect
It’s Ahriman’s Exiles, but with Magnus instead of Ahriman, and you can take Daemon Princes instead of the sorcerers. Everything has to be Mastery Level 3, and you get “cast on 3+” and Magnus’ “can target every unit” rule. Again, that’s an awful awful lot of taxes for some underwhelming rules.

Grand Coven
This is the Thousand Sons mega-detachment. You don’t get anything not from the Thousand Sons formations list - so no Warband. You can take single Vehicles as Auxillary choices. In exchange for taking either the (bad) cabal or the (bad) conclave as core, you can re-roll Perils and attempt to manifest an additional power each per turn. This isn’t worth it at all.

You can do better with the Black Crusade detachment, since you can take a single squad of Rubricae as an auxillary choice, and then you can take good things for the rest of the army. At which point you're not really taking Thousand Sons are you? Look, its not possible to do this well.
Said single vehicle also includes any daemon engine, for thoes who didn't get it. as many people dont.
Manifesting an additional power and rerolling perils are worth FAR more than you think, especially with the new tzeentch table and the Siphon Power within it. it makes chaining siphons for warp dice engines a thing, it makes zealous spending on throwing treason at the right place at the right time a possibility and it makes throwing tons of withcfires that denying simply can't be done an option. when playing a super-caster-heavy list, these bonuses are great. and 1ksons are meant to be super-caster heavy. especially considering the abilities that trigger off casting like +1 to saves, or the war cabal's rerolling shots.

Tactical Objectives
11: Kill Nine models. This is way harder than “kill a unit” since you can’t just pop a rhino. don't have to be from one unit though. if you can't manage this, you got bigger problems. unless facing knights or something then its impossible.
12: Psychic Supremacy: Deny The Witch. You should have enough psychic dice to just throw them all at the first power, or you could play more conservatively like normal and still have a pretty decent chance. Fear the smart opponent who has psykers (so you can’t discard this) but chooses not to cast. an enemy with psykers that refuses to cast? seems like a win to me.
13: Destroy an Armies Of The Imperium unit. Either easy or basically impossible?
14: Score D3 points if your opponent controls no objectives. This will be really hard, since you have bugger-all for fast units - unless you’re allying a ton of daemons.
15: Destroy an enemy unit in the psychic phase. The best thing you can be doing is casting a trillion witchfires, so this is actually reasonably possible.
16: Manifest three or six powers of different types. This is actually reasonably possible, since the Tzeentch table has five types, and the witchfires count as different types. the three is actually really easy for d3 points. the six for d3+3 is nigh impossible by merit of getting these.

Aside from the fact that you're handicapped by being Thousand Sons, this table isn't bad at all.

Thousand Sons aren't good. You can make them better with a hefty allied force of Daemons, but since they're worse than Daemons... look, try and find some other rules somewhere you can use for them instead. You can do anything you want from the Space Marine book.

You're looking down at the sons of prospero, and that shall be your downfall.
Yes, you need allied daemons. but not all that many. only about 400 points of them will do just fine. just a few horrors to shore up on disposable bodies and warp dice.

[Caxton]

Cheese, I think you missed the point. Eternal War was a dumb choice and favors DG heavily, granted. But we can draw inferences at least. If you go down the L&D route (which I now dub "True Hydra") you are unlikely to be able to afford much of anything that can remove obsec. Obsec is king in maelstrom of course, and it doesn't matter how any cultists you spawn if they are all slap fighting at a real unit. All the opponent has to be able to do is slap down a reasonable obsec unit on each point. Sure you have your warband to do some lifting, but how heavily can you lean on them to actually kill things? These lists desperately need an auxiliary with killing power. Too many people who are theorycrafting this list are focusing too much on cultists on not enough on murder. I just wonder what auxiliary pick will do the trick.

I still think it will be tough for AL in maelstrom without fearless though.

[LeSwordfish]

every 1ksons psyker has a blessing due to having force weapons. you can use that power any time you want even if you are not in combat if you want that 3+ invul for your dudes.

Ah, my mistake. I will upgrade that ability from "semifunctional" to "a bit duff" then - it's disappointing that I need to be spending precious warp charge to get a worse version of the sort of buff everyone else gets for free.



1 also lets you reroll one dice on a DtW tests. and given the amount of good maledictions lately (and quite a few armies use witchfires despite what you think. shrike is the go-to answer of many armies to big scary monsters.), its not horrible, just poor.
3 is pretty lousy indeed, but you should let people judge for themselves rather than announce it, perhaps they would see a use you do not. what it does is give the warlord and unit the ability to move through cover like necron wraiths. no movement penalties and no charge penalties through terrain.
6 also makes every run/turboboost/flatout/charge within 12" of your warlord cause dangerous terrain tests, that's freaking sweet as it makes charging you and/or eldar dancing shenanigans risk deaths.

1) I've got a psyker in every unit, and so anything maledicting me, i can just throw a thousand dice at it, quite possibly with a +1 for higher mastery level anyway. Anybody outpsyking me is eldar, in which case why even play?
3) I don't think there's much point in just copying out the codex. What do you have in the codex that would benefit from this?
6) I guess, yeah.

Good points re the artefacts: though what "scary 1ksons melee unit" can you suggest?


You forgot the come stock with AoDG, so its 45 points over a sorcerer. also, you forgot inferno bolts (meh), divination picks (not great for 1ksons actually), but most important you forgot +1W, +1I and +1A. this is basically a chaos lord and a sorcerer rolled into one and geared up. he's GOOD at CC. he's a psyker, and he gives important AT shot at unlimited range. he's good. very good.

Ah okay, I clearly did miss a bunch. I'm not sure I agree that he's GOOD at close combat - I wouldn't say that about an ordinary Lord with a power maul and Aura. And he has one lascannon shot. For the same price I could get a whole squad of Havocs, who can shoot four lascannons, and can do it more than once. He's much better than I originally expected though, credit where it's due.


you forgot +1T and that you don't have to buy a team leader. if you care not for the pistol (you don't), a squad of 10 costs only 10 more than a squad of tzeentch cultists. fair enough.

Cultists don't need +T or +Invuln, though, do they? They need to be cheap and numerous? But again, yeah, better than I thought. Sorry.


Unfortunatly accurate. except Tzeentch powers being underwhelming. the update made the tzeentch table quite impressive.

Treason is just the Cabal power, except they get to cast it with bonuses, get it for free, and they get to roll everything on other tables. Siphon is potentially useful for grabbing a few extra warp charge to power up a psyker, but it requires 2-4 psykers near you to cast before you have a good chance of getting your investment back. Everything else just seems underwhelming.


as for sucking less, the sargent has a true sorcerer statline, at cheaper than what a terminator sorcerr tends to cost. their inferno bolts are not amazing, but helpful, and having fearless is a nice touch. these are decent at the very least.

"Mark Of Tzeentch" is pretty suboptimal - i'd definitely rather have access to combi-weapons, better close combat weapons, and a better mark.


even the WC5 D beam. and do you seriously claim THATS too expensive? a D beam is outright bonkers. no power in the game comes close to it in how destructive it can be. that ALONE outguns a wraithknight be far

I don't care that it's a Beam - It only hits each thing once. And sure, it outguns a wraithknight! It bloody should, given that he's twice the price and considerably less tough than a wraithknight! And the Wraithknight doesn't need to cast it's guns.


also, if you view MoT as such a tax, maybe this just isn't the army for you.

Well, yes. The two questions i'm trying to answer are: If I want to play an effective chaos list, what do I play? Not Thousand Sons, and no, you don't put Mark of Tzeentch on everything. And: If I want to play Thousand Sons, how do I make them effective? Well, you have a massive, horrible, uphill battle, with problems caused by the fact that bad things- like Mark Of Tzeentch - are bound into the list at a basic level.


well, yea. they are tarpits. you use this to stick them where you need them.

Oh, I can make a suggestion for where you can stick this. Sorry, couldn't resist. But if it's not fearless, it's not a tarpit. They charge, lose two guys, and get Sweeping Advance-d out of existance. I want Tarpits, I can have Tarpits that are fearless and keep coming back from reserve, or Fearless and Feel No Pain.


Manifesting an additional power and rerolling perils are worth FAR more than you think, especially with the new tzeentch table and the Siphon Power within it. it makes chaining siphons for warp dice engines a thing, it makes zealous spending on throwing treason at the right place at the right time a possibility and it makes throwing tons of withcfires that denying simply can't be done an option. when playing a super-caster-heavy list, these bonuses are great. and 1ksons are meant to be super-caster heavy. especially considering the abilities that trigger off casting like +1 to saves, or the war cabal's rerolling shots.

You need to actually roll Siphon - and something useful to siphon powers for - to use it as a bonus power. Same with Treason - which better psykers can just pick up for free. Look at what everyone else in the book gets!


an enemy with psykers that refuses to cast? seems like a win to me.


What if I have, say, one librarian? I wasn't going to get anything off successfully anyway, so why not deny you a free VP?

[LeSwordfish]

New Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things&p=21511682#post21511682)

[Requizen]

What would be a good unit to slap an Astral Grimoire into if you're sticking pure 1kSons? Mutilators? Makes them nice and fast, which is one of their biggest downsides, and then you can Psychic buff them up a reasonable amount.