Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

[Segev]

I won't say outright that it cannot be used: you can make up to Large animated objects with it at CL 5. But according to the rules for building and modifying constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs), unlike other crafting feats, you have to meet the minimum CL of the construct. You can't just ignore that by adding 5 to the Spellcraft DC, and you can't "merely" use the minimum CL to set a DC the way you can with other magic items (which apparently don't have the CL as a "requirement" and thus don't need you to actually be that level to make them).

I am scouring the SRD, but all the constructs I can find have a minimum CL of 6 (and most - the lowly homunculus included - are CL 7 or higher). Only the animated objects - which use their HD as the minimum CL, fall at or below a minimum CL of 5. (Large animated objects are 4 HD; anything bigger is 6+.)

Am I missing something? Or is this feat just generally not worth taking until level 7? Are Large animated objects worth their costs?

[Particle_Man]

Well since feats come at odd levels, if there are uses for it at CL 6 that could be a reason to take it at level 5.

[Doc_Maynot]

2,500+Materials craft cost for a flying vehicle (Large Animated Object) isn't TOO bad at level 5

[Segev]

2,500+Materials craft cost for a flying vehicle (Large Animated Object) isn't TOO bad at level 5

Well, flying mount, but you're right. I suppose that's cheaper and easier to control than a pegasus or a griffon or the like.

[Doc_Maynot]

Well, flying mount, but you're right. I suppose that's cheaper and easier to control than a pegasus or a griffon or the like.

Animated objects don't need to be creature shaped. So you could make one out of a large sized vehicle.

[Segev]

Animated objects don't need to be creature shaped. So you could make one out of a large sized vehicle.

Hard to make a "vehicle" that's only as large as a horse. But I suppose you could do something like a soapbox derby car.

[Coidzor]

It's good for having low-level NPC crafters with Craft Construct and Cooperative Crafting?


Well, flying mount, but you're right. I suppose that's cheaper and easier to control than a pegasus or a griffon or the like.

Might be able to rig up something like a hang-glider to drag some cargo or the like along behind you if you get enough air.

If you're willing to gimp it completely by making it out of fabric like a kite, you can reduce the cost to 1,000 gp to make one and have it have a land speed of 20 and a fly speed of 40. Or make one for the 6,250 gp cost and have a land speed of 30 and a fly speed of 100.

[Aimeryan]

Hard to make a "vehicle" that's only as large as a horse. But I suppose you could do something like a soapbox derby car.

Motorbike? Flying motorbike?

[Segev]

Hm. Assuming negative CP are allowed, and that the "X size animated objects have Y CP" rules are for those created by the spell, but are not mandatory for those being custom crafted...

Threadbare Flying Carpet (Large Animated Object: Additional Movement Mode (1 CP) (Fly [clumsy] 30 ft.); Slow x2 (10 ft. land speed) (-2 CP); Cloth (0 hardness) (-1 CP); Flammable (vulnerable to fire) (-1 CP))

(4 HD - 3 CP)*1000 gp base price = 1000 gp base price; 500 gp crafting cost.


Exquisite Flying Carpet (Large Animated Object: Additional Movement Mode - Fly [clumsy] 30 ft. (1 CP); Faster x3 - Fly speed increased to 60 ft. (3 CP); Slow x2 - 10 ft. land speed (-2 CP); Cloth - 0 hardness (-1 CP))

(4 HD + 1 CP)*1000 gp base price = 5000 gp base price; 2500 gp crafting cost.


It's worth noting that a Clumsy flight means that there's advantage to the slower flight speed; it has a lower minimum speed.


Edit: For an additional 7500 gp base price (3750 gp crafting cost), either of these can be further enchanted with continuously-active levitate. Which negates the biggest disadvantage of the Clumsy flight. Could also knock off at least one more CP by reducing land speed to 0, at that point. For the threadbare carpet, would either want to boost flight speed by 10 ft. or remove the vulnerability to fire. Can't have a free item!

Second Edit: It seems PF moved all the rules for who can hover, fly less than half speed, etc. into the Fly skill, and just made the maneuverabilities into bonuses and penalties to said skill. Interesting. Still, animated objects, as constructs with Int --, have no skill points, so the Large and Clumsy fliers with 8 Dex have a net -11 to flight checks!

This means they can't do any of the things in the "flight maneuver" table, since the lowest DC is 10, and their maximum possible modified d20 roll is 9.

[Segev]

Hm. Just realized something more than a little bit cheesy. A Fly, Burrow, Climb, or Swim speed of 10 less than the land speed of an animated object is technically free. +1 CP for the extra movement type; -1 CP for reducing it by 10 ft.

[Morphic tide]

Motorbike? Flying motorbike?

If you're doing 3.PF, you can actually get bonuses for it being bike-shaped, in regards to ground movement. I haven't familiarized myself with the crazy customization things in PF, so I'm not sure if the difference in move speed applies.

The 3.5 version can get +40 ft. move speed for being wheeled, which is quite large.

[Jack_Simth]

Hard to make a "vehicle" that's only as large as a horse. But I suppose you could do something like a soapbox derby car.
Given that spacing is flexible, and a Large creature takes up a 10 ft by 10 ft area in combat? It's not really all that hard. Sure, it's bigger than a horse (Large), but it's smaller than an elephant (Huge). You could basically have a compact car in that 10x10 foot space.

[Coidzor]

Just realized I forgot to address part of your OP.

You can make Trompe L'oeil and Waxwork Creatures with HD up to your CL, since the CL requirement to make them is equal to the HD of the creature being imitated.

So if you had 3500-4500 gp, you could make a copy of yourself at 5th level, or a party member. Possibly with a bunch of templates stacked on since the price is based on HD.

For 2500 + X, you could make a copy of a bruiser with 5 HD, but basically just get the ability scores, natural weapons, and HD. You'd want to be weight efficient, too, since you add half the weight to the construction cost as a material cost. 500 gp apiece can add on 2 additional HD per HD Modification, IIRC.

[Segev]

Just realized I forgot to address part of your OP.

You can make Trompe L'oeil and Waxwork Creatures with HD up to your CL, since the CL requirement to make them is equal to the HD of the creature being imitated.

So if you had 3500-4500 gp, you could make a copy of yourself at 5th level, or a party member. Possibly with a bunch of templates stacked on since the price is based on HD.

For 2500 + X, you could make a copy of a bruiser with 5 HD, but basically just get the ability scores, natural weapons, and HD. You'd want to be weight efficient, too, since you add half the weight to the construction cost as a material cost. 500 gp apiece can add on 2 additional HD per HD Modification, IIRC.
Many thanks! These are quite interesting.

And raise a question, though other effects could have raised it before: what happens if you make one of these based on your familiar? It's interesting because it says it keeps the base creature's special abilities, and the familiar bond traits are special abilities. Could you have a small army made out of paintings of your beloved kitty cat? (Terror be unto all first level wizards and commoners!)


Edit: Well, the Trompe L'oeil says it gains certain special qualities, and mentions nothing about losing them, at least. Waxwork creatures do lose them. But since a Trompe L'oeil seems to even retain class features...wow. That's...very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC. :smalleek:

[unseenmage]

...

Edit: Well, the Trompe L'oeil says it gains certain special qualities, and mentions nothing about losing them, at least. Waxwork creatures do lose them. But since a Trompe L'oeil seems to even retain class features...wow. That's...very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC. :smalleek:

Gets worse better than that, you could even make a Trompe L'oeil of another Trompe L'oeil. And another etc.

Why stop there, why not build a Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Annis%20Hag%20Alter%2 0Ego) of a party member. Oh, and Alter Egos have ectoplasmic versions of their permanent magic items.

Classic template stacking applies, Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of a Trompe L'oeil... You get the idea.


Additionally, in the 'Building and Modifying Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/)' section there is a section on building constructs with prices based on their CR ( CR*CR*500 for base price, base price ÷2 to create, and base price *0.1 or 0.5 for the body).

This opens up a lot of additional Construct options if allowed. Weave in Awaken Construct (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Awaken%20Construct) and now you get Trompe L'oeil, or even Alter Ego, of any Construct you want.

The 'Building and Modifying Constructs' info also contains info on adding weapons and armor to Constructs. These armaments can explicitly be enhanced after being integrated. Which means they'll likely be enhanced when a Trompe L'oeil of said Construct is created.
So make yourself a Trompe L'oeil a Weapon/Armor Modification-ed Trompe L'oeil of any Int 3 creature and go to town.

If the Integrated Weaponry of Robots is synonymous with the Weapon Modification at your table then the tech weapon natural weapons of Robots are enhanced when you make a Trompe L'oeil of them too. And oh look, the Int of Robots is conveniently high enough for the template.

The above is all with GM permission and reeks of cheese, but its better to know the perils of the process IMHO.

My personal favorite idea with Trompe L'oeil is a Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of an Awakened Construct-ed Clockwork (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types/#Clockwork_Subtype) of a Gunpowder Ooze (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gunpowder%20Ooze).

Amalgam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/amalgam-creature-cr-special/) with Tattoo Guardian (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tattoo%20Guardian) for control and ease of travel.
Make two or three of them so they set each other off when they blow up and watch the fireworks. :smallyuk:


Oh yeah, speaking of Tattoo Guardian, it's a really nice option for a lower level Construct. Added to Amalgam its even customizable.

[Coidzor]

Many thanks! These are quite interesting.

And raise a question, though other effects could have raised it before: what happens if you make one of these based on your familiar? It's interesting because it says it keeps the base creature's special abilities, and the familiar bond traits are special abilities. Could you have a small army made out of paintings of your beloved kitty cat? (Terror be unto all first level wizards and commoners!)


Edit: Well, the Trompe L'oeil says it gains certain special qualities, and mentions nothing about losing them, at least. Waxwork creatures do lose them. But since a Trompe L'oeil seems to even retain class features...wow. That's...very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC. :smalleek:

I suppose there is a chance that one could pay about 1,000 gp and end up with all of the Valet Familiars one could ever want or use as a crafter. Or even use retraining and make several Protector Familiars so that one has multiple HP batteries, and doesn't even have to worry about them dying, since they'll reform (unless that still triggers BAD THINGS when they're discorporated and have to reform).

Or even retrain into Magus, make a bunch of Mauler Familiars, and then see if they keep the higher BAB and HP after retraining back into Wizard.

Very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC indeed. The main risk is involved in protecting the canvas or having the painting become a Trompe L'oeil on its own before you complete the construct making process, IIRC.

Both Trompe L'oeil and Waxwork Creatures have a remarkable ability to protect your invested GP by making it harder to permanently destroy them.

Although one really needs to look into ways to grant fire immunity or at least resistance, or fire-proof the base materials before making them when it comes to Waxwork Creatures, since fire damage is so common.

[Segev]

I'm not entirely sure I follow the benefit behind making a Trompe L'oiel of an Alter Ego. (It is notable that Alter Egos are not...constructable constructs, so the first has to be found somehow.) I'm not really sure what benefit there is to making a Trompe L'oeil of a Trompe L'oeil is over just making a second Trompe L'oeil of the original, save that it means you don't need the original to pose for another painting. (You have the Trompe L'oeil do it.)

What's a bit worrisome about Trompe L'oeils is that they are so inexpensive for what is, essentially, a full-fledged character. A 5th level caster could make duplicates of his whole party for 3500 to 4500 gp each, depending on whether they're small or medium creatures.

Overall, it's priced like a simulacrum with the added cost of the painting, but it auto-resurrects and it has additional powers, plus has the same power and level as the original.

[noob]

"Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of an Awakened Construct-ed Clockwork of a Gunpowder Ooze."
Why that while you could just make a Trompe L'oeil of a level 20 wizard(or any other T1 class)(you need CL 20 for making that creature which is the same cl at which you can make a level 20 wizard)
You need the insanely high CL of 20 for creating that ooze because it have 20 hd.

"I'm not really sure what benefit there is to making a Trompe L'oeil of a Trompe L'oeil is over just making a second Trompe L'oeil of the original"
depending on the interpretation that meta Trompe L'oeil could have multiple paintings making it immortal thus making people needs to break more paintings to kill just one Trompe L'oeil(and even if it still have one painting it could have multiple times the respawn power thus giving him multiple rolls for respawn thus shortening his average respawn time)

[Jack_Simth]

So if you had 3500-4500 gp, you could make a copy of yourself at 5th level, or a party member. Possibly with a bunch of templates stacked on since the price is based on HD.Silly question: Where does it say a Trompe L'oeil follows the orders of it's creator? This may backfire horribly.

[unseenmage]

I'm not entirely sure I follow the benefit behind making a Trompe L'oiel of an Alter Ego. (It is notable that Alter Egos are not...constructable constructs, so the first has to be found somehow.) I'm not really sure what benefit there is to making a Trompe L'oeil of a Trompe L'oeil is over just making a second Trompe L'oeil of the original, save that it means you don't need the original to pose for another painting. (You have the Trompe L'oeil do it.)

What's a bit worrisome about Trompe L'oeils is that they are so inexpensive for what is, essentially, a full-fledged character. A 5th level caster could make duplicates of his whole party for 3500 to 4500 gp each, depending on whether they're small or medium creatures.

Overall, it's priced like a simulacrum with the added cost of the painting, but it auto-resurrects and it has additional powers, plus has the same power and level as the original.

The Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego IS a way to make an Alter Ego craftable.
I'm not seeing anything in the Trompe L'oeil template that requires the original creature to be present.
Thus, you can paint whatever you want and Tromp L'oeil it. Including Alter Egos.

The benefit in making Trompe L'oeil of Alter Egos and Trompe L'oeil of Trompe L'oeil is the stat boosts, just like any other template stacking cheese.

Admittedly, I erred. Trompe L'oeil of Alter Ego isnt as good as Alter Ego of Trompe L'oeil. Alter Ego of Trompe L'oeil gets to keep both the Trompe L'oeil armor/weapon buff and the permanent ectoplasmic magic items of the Alter Ego.

As far as making Alter Egos, as I mentioned, the Building and Modifying Constructs section has info for just making any Construct with a price based on its CR.

And yeah, making PC class pseudo lich with nearly free weapon and armor enhancements is borked.
Also hilarious is making a Trompe L'oeil of the BBEG and just asking it about the big bad plan; just like Simulacrum .

Our table runs on almost pure cheese fumes and these things have been too much for us.


...
Why that while you could just make a Trompe L'oeil of a level 20 wizard(or any other T1 class)(you need CL 20 for making that creature which is the same cl at which you can make a level 20 wizard)
You need the insanely high CL of 20 for creating that ooze because it have 20 hd.
The Gunpowder Ooze is an excercise in taking advantage of the Rejuvenation ability of the Trompe L'oeil. One explodes, kills another, they split, killing each other, they die, they Rejuvenate. Rinse Repeat for fun and profit.

Sure full casters are better, but Gunpowder Oozes are mah vav'rite. :smallcool:



...
depending on the interpretation that meta Trompe L'oeil could have multiple paintings making it immortal thus making people needs to break more paintings to kill just one Trompe L'oeil(and even if it still have one painting it could have multiple times the respawn power thus giving him multiple rolls for respawn thus shortening his average respawn time)
Sadly, I'm pretty sure painting nesting doesn't occur. Would be weird if it did though.

[Coidzor]

Silly question: Where does it say a Trompe L'oeil follows the orders of it's creator? This may backfire horribly.

From what I can tell, there's two main ways they can come into existence.

1. A character with Craft Construct makes them, and since they don't say they're free-willed and not controlled by their creator, they're controlled by their creator.

2. They arise naturally from spoopiness as per Horror Adventures, in which case they have the same alignment as the base creature or possibly the dude who painted them or the spoopiness that brought them to life, if applicable.

If the GM wants to screw you, there's ways for basically any construct to go uncontrolled or to have spoopiness happen and spontaneously awaken them and give them free-will.

Hence why it's probably generally better not to go full cheese and instead abide by a gentleman's agreement, especially when employing Waxworks or Trompe L'oeils.

[unseenmage]

...

If the GM wants to screw you, there's ways for basically any construct to go uncontrolled or to have spoopiness happen and spontaneously awaken them and give them free-will.
This. Allofthis.

The creation line itself is the proof in the pudding that they're controlled Constructs.

Otherwise Trompe L'oeil would be the only example of a Construct that is player made that is uncontrollable at creation. Edit: To my knowledge.

[Jack_Simth]

1. A character with Craft Construct makes them, and since they don't say they're free-willed and not controlled by their creator, they're controlled by their creator.
This is the scenario I'm focused on, yes. Do you have a source on "controlled by the creator" being the default, or are you simply assuming it is so? They are significantly different scenarios, especially when it comes to things that have an Int score.

[Segev]

This is the scenario I'm focused on, yes. Do you have a source on "controlled by the creator" being the default, or are you simply assuming it is so? They are significantly different scenarios, especially when it comes to things that have an Int score.

Valid concern. There are constructs which explicitly state they obey their creators, and the trompe l'oeil seems not to have such a clause. However, most things which create uncontrolled creatures spell out quite clearly that they don't offer any means of control. It's a gray area, here, it seems, but at the least, the trompe l'oeil shares its creator's alignment (if its creator makes it to do so), and presumably they can thus be allies/friends.

Since it's inherited, it also would carry any controls or allegiances of the original. If you make a trompe l'oeil of an ally, it will at the LEAST likely be an ally as well. Make one of your familiar, and...well, it's essentially a second, but indestructible, familiar. Make one of a skeleton you control, and we get into fuzzy territory as to whether it counts against the HD cap of your undead control. It isn't undead, but it's controlled because its original is controlled, and...well.

If you're less than noble-minded about it, you could also hold its canvas hostage to its obedience. While that's not an instant death sentence, it is leverage.


But it is also quite possible that it is controlled, given that it lacks text saying it is not. But a more sure way of being certain would be nice.

[Coidzor]

This is the scenario I'm focused on, yes. Do you have a source on "controlled by the creator" being the default, or are you simply assuming it is so? They are significantly different scenarios, especially when it comes to things that have an Int score.

Honestly, from what I recall, most constructs don't have explicit language saying the creator controls them in the first place, even the ones everybody knows obey your commands, like homunculi and golems. There's a lot of references to creators having control in various places, like the Building and Modifying Constructs section on Repairing Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/#Repairing_Constructs).

I'm AFB, so I couldn't quote you the relevant portions of the Horror Adventures constructs.

Even Homunculi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus/), while they say they share the basic nature and are made to be servants and don't want to go beyond a certain distance from the person whose blood they're made from, don't have it explicitly said that they obey commands, just that a character is their master.

Golems (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/)have the most detail that goes into how they function and are controlled by their creator, though, and explicitly state things there.

[Segev]

The Homunculus doesn't ever say "it obeys its master," but it does call out a specific master, and talk about servitude.

It is noteworthy that animated objects don't seem to specify, when made with Craft Construct, that they obey their creator. But since they have no nature and no impetus to act without instruction, it seems fairly obvious they would.

So... I think it's just assumed. Pity it isn't more explicitly called out.

[noob]

"The Gunpowder Ooze is an excercise in taking advantage of the Rejuvenation ability of the Trompe L'oeil. One explodes, kills another, they split, killing each other, they die, they Rejuvenate. Rinse Repeat for fun and profit.

Sure full casters are better, but Gunpowder Oozes are mah vav'rite. "
If your GM have no notion of setting or of setting conservation a Trompe L'oeil of an apocalypse swarm of a Creature Swarm of a caster of your level can break the setting like if there was no tomorrow because there will be one only if you chose to.
Gunpowder Ooze is much more balanced and thus can be tolerated at a table and thus be used unlike the previous one.
I like Gunpowder Oozes too but If I was to do that trick I would chose an ooze with lower HD(unless if I am level 20).

[unseenmage]

...

If your GM have no notion of setting or of setting conservation a Trompe L'oeil of an apocalypse swarm of a Creature Swarm of a caster of your level can break the setting like if there was no tomorrow because there will be one only if you chose to.
Gunpowder Ooze is much more balanced and thus can be tolerated at a table and thus be used unlike the previous one.
I like Gunpowder Oozes too but If I was to do that trick I would chose an ooze with lower HD(unless if I am level 20).

The Rejuvenation ability is the cool part. It's nearly identical to the ability of the same name granted to Ghosts and Liches.

Lich Trompe L'oeil would be hilarious. I intend to make one with my current character if the current game ramps up to that level of cheese.


Query, can one make a Trompe L'oeil of a Migrus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/migru/)?

[Segev]

1) I'm not sure why a migrus would be an attractive thing in the first place, let alone worth making a trompe l'oeil of.
2) It says it has the stats of a cat familiar; thus it has an int score.
3) Therefore, it can have a trompe l'oeil made of it.



The more I look into the trompe l'oeil, the more I realize that it's really poorly balanced, since it only costs based on HD. At the least, you'd think it would cost based on HD or CR, whichever was higher. I mean, a 4-HD Pegasus and a 4-HD advanced superior Pegasus (the kind with perfect flight and the advanced template) would be exactly the same cost to produce as a trompe l'oeil. And the advanced superior Pegasus is specifically +1 CR over the regular kind.

[noob]

Even if it was based on (cr+hd)*100 + size based cost it would still be way too much cheap.
It would need something quadratic like the default cost of (CR^2)*500.
The price was probably made by someone who had no idea how much a construct was worth: it is so cheap you can have one single wizard make two full adventurer teams(if he use fine sized adventurers) with his lvl5 wbl and then retire and have a huge constant income 10 days after he took the feat.
The reason for which there is still wizards above level 5 who are adventuring(And are not a Trompe L'oeil) is unknown.

[Jack_Simth]

Valid concern. There are constructs which explicitly state they obey their creators, and the trompe l'oeil seems not to have such a clause. However, most things which create uncontrolled creatures spell out quite clearly that they don't offer any means of control. It's a gray area, here, it seems, but at the least, the trompe l'oeil shares its creator's alignment (if its creator makes it to do so), and presumably they can thus be allies/friends.
Definitely an option, and many DMs will say "Why yes, of course you have complete command of a construct you created; why wouldn't you?" - but not all will, and if you start exploiting the easily exploitable, there's a rather lot of DMs that will start looking for loopholes (not the right approach, but a lot of people will go for it). The simple solution (as a player) is to not abuse the ability so that the DM doesn't go looking. Make a decoy that you leave at home to give you plausible deniability while you're away, and you're probably OK. If you start animating pictures of things that only might exist, and you're going to be in trouble. Get the beasties to do all the work for you, and you're going to be in trouble. A few for specific purposes that don't impact the game overly much and you're probably fine.

Since it's inherited, it also would carry any controls or allegiances of the original. If you make a trompe l'oeil of an ally, it will at the LEAST likely be an ally as well. Make one of your familiar, and...well, it's essentially a second, but indestructible, familiar. Make one of a skeleton you control, and we get into fuzzy territory as to whether it counts against the HD cap of your undead control. It isn't undead, but it's controlled because its original is controlled, and...well.A likely workable approach. Start thinking of them as the base creature and you'll probably do well... do note, though, that the default skeleton is mindless, and not a valid target.

If you're less than noble-minded about it, you could also hold its canvas hostage to its obedience. While that's not an instant death sentence, it is leverage.Also a workable approach, but consider: As a player, how would you respond to being treated that way? Sure, you'll obey for now... while you quietly hunt down a way to free yourself of the chains (probably via locating the painting... which you can do by simple expedient of getting yourself killed....).

But it is also quite possible that it is controlled, given that it lacks text saying it is not. But a more sure way of being certain would be nice.Certainty would be nice, yes.



The price was probably made by someone who had no idea how much a construct was worth: it is so cheap you can have one single wizard make two full adventurer teams(if he use fine sized adventurers) with his lvl5 wbl and then retire and have a huge constant income 10 days after he took the feat.Interesting... WBL at 5th is 10,500 gp. Making a copy of a 5th level medium creature costs 4,500 gp (2,000 for the painting, 2,500 materials). If you Craft the painting, it costs 3,166. A 'Tiny or smaller' adventurer of 5th level - assuming no racial hit dice - would be 3,000 gp each. If you craft the painting as well, then that's 2,666.66... gp.

Are you purchasing based on the obvious typo of 100 gp/hd + Painting Cost purchase price?

[Segev]

Definitely an option, and many DMs will say "Why yes, of course you have complete command of a construct you created; why wouldn't you?" - but not all will, and if you start exploiting the easily exploitable, there's a rather lot of DMs that will start looking for loopholes (not the right approach, but a lot of people will go for it). The simple solution (as a player) is to not abuse the ability so that the DM doesn't go looking. Make a decoy that you leave at home to give you plausible deniability while you're away, and you're probably OK. If you start animating pictures of things that only might exist, and you're going to be in trouble. Get the beasties to do all the work for you, and you're going to be in trouble. A few for specific purposes that don't impact the game overly much and you're probably fine.Yeah, you probably want to avoid making people with it, unless you're using them for highly thematic, and not generic adventuring, purposes. I mean, sure, you might be able to get away with an entire entourage of what would otherwise be hirelings, but don't push it much beyond that. Because holy cow this can get silly fast.

Just copying YOURSELF once for each of the other party members and offering their services as buff-bots would probably get the DM more than a little...irked. And let's be honest, if you can't trust yourself to serve as a buff-bot for your fellow party members, who CAN you trust?


A likely workable approach. Start thinking of them as the base creature and you'll probably do well...Yeah. It also limits your base creature sources, which will help combat the more potent odor of spoiled milk.


do note, though, that the default skeleton is mindless, and not a valid target.*facepalm* Good point. Though it would apply to, say, a ghast you had bound with the necromancer's Command Undead bonus feat. Or the one the Cleric has controlled. (Though that'd make it his, but hey, maybe he paid you to paint it for him.)

Using that in conjunction with a spawn-mother undead would be good. Keep the original safe and sound, locked away somewhere, and re-bind it regularly, and send its trompe l'oeil (which is also bound to your service, thanks to the inherited nature of the template) out to make spawn. If it dies, it reforms, still under your control, and its spawn are still bound to obey you because it told them to.


Also a workable approach, but consider: As a player, how would you respond to being treated that way? Oh, good heavens, of course it's an awful idea, if you're a rational being. It's such a weak form of control. I mean, if you destroy the canvas, the WORST that happens to the trompe l'oeil is that it now is as mortal as its original.

I mean, think of it as if you were a PC and the villain walked up to you and told you, "If you ever die, I have an artifact that will bring you back to life. But if you ever disobey me, I will destroy this artifact."

That is, at best, a promise of pay for services rendered, not a threat. Destroy the artifact and you, the PC, are out nothing you wouldn't have been out without ever knowing the artifact existed!


Interesting... WBL at 5th is 10,500 gp. Making a copy of a 5th level medium creature costs 4,500 gp (2,000 for the painting, 2,500 materials). If you Craft the painting, it costs 3,166. A 'Tiny or smaller' adventurer of 5th level - assuming no racial hit dice - would be 3,000 gp each. If you craft the painting as well, then that's 2,666.66... gp. Small adventurers - halflings and gnomes - are probably your most economical bet, if you want to stick to "common" adventurers. That'd be 1000 gp for the painting and 2500 gp for materials. 2834 gp (rounding up to the next gp) for painting and crafting the trompe l'oeil of a 5th level gnome illusionist yourself.

Assuming your DM is being at all cautious, we'll assume you had to find the guy and get him to pose for it. (Though of course, if you're unscrupulous, you might've gotten him to actually buy it and hang it in his tower. Which could net you 666 gp profit rather than 334 gp loss on painting it, leaving you only spending 1834 gp net on crafting it. And, assuming the DM does let you have control of it as its creator, giving you a spy in his tower. Just hope he doesn't realize, because an angry illusionist is no laughing matter.)

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, you probably want to avoid making people with it, unless you're using them for highly thematic, and not generic adventuring, purposes. I mean, sure, you might be able to get away with an entire entourage of what would otherwise be hirelings, but don't push it much beyond that. Because holy cow this can get silly fast.Yes, yes it can. If you have full control, it's basically an Ice Assasin that you can get at 5th level, that respawns. And the 3.5 Ice Assasin is abusable enough as it is.

Just copying YOURSELF once for each of the other party members and offering their services as buff-bots would probably get the DM more than a little...irked. And let's be honest, if you can't trust yourself to serve as a buff-bot for your fellow party members, who CAN you trust?Yes, very likely to annoy a DM. Hence my example of copying yourself being to give you plausible deniability while doing other things. The less mechanical impact it has for the price, the more likely it is to be overlooked for just how crazy it can get.

Yeah. It also limits your base creature sources, which will help combat the more potent odor of spoiled milk.

*facepalm* Good point. Though it would apply to, say, a ghast you had bound with the necromancer's Command Undead bonus feat. Or the one the Cleric has controlled. (Though that'd make it his, but hey, maybe he paid you to paint it for him.) The one under a form of temporary control is a strange question. Consider: Would a Trompe L'oeil of a creature under the effects of Bull's Strength when painted keep the +4 Enhancement forever? Does killing the original creature affect the Trompe L'oeil? If the answer to both of those is "no", then you've got a problem with temporary control effects. If the answer to either of those is "yes", then this works.

Assuming your DM is being at all cautious, we'll assume you had to find the guy and get him to pose for it. (Though of course, if you're unscrupulous, you might've gotten him to actually buy it and hang it in his tower. Which could net you 666 gp profit rather than 334 gp loss on painting it, leaving you only spending 1834 gp net on crafting it. And, assuming the DM does let you have control of it as its creator, giving you a spy in his tower. Just hope he doesn't realize, because an angry illusionist is no laughing matter.)A wizard is also one of the most likely people to figure it out. Detect Magic is at-will in Pathfinder, and is also used for magic item identification....

Edit: We have, however, gotten an answer to "is it useful at that level?" with "yes, at least if a Trompe L'oeil is controlled by the creator, and probably yes even if not"

[Segev]

Yes, yes it can. If you have full control, it's basically an Ice Assasin that you can get at 5th level, that respawns. And the 3.5 Ice Assasin is abusable enough as it is.
Yes, very likely to annoy a DM. Hence my example of copying yourself being to give you plausible deniability while doing other things. The less mechanical impact it has for the price, the more likely it is to be overlooked for just how crazy it can get.Were I to try it for thematic purposes, my Trompe L'oeils would be scattered about, in the halls of rich and powerful figures, decorating government centers, etc. And they'd be my spies and ears, visited periodically by the Trompe L'oeil of my familiar (so it could hide in the painting with them in case somebody comes in while they're talking).

Depending on my ambitions and maleficence, they may also be my assassins. Closed room murder, anybody?

Not to mention the possibilities of an army. A great work of a Trompe L'oiel mural on the inside of a city wall, featuring the massed armies of the kingdom "steadfastly guarding the city" could be impressive. Especially since you could probably convince the city to pay you for it, and a mural that size has a highly negotiable market v


The one under a form of temporary control is a strange question. Consider: Would a Trompe L'oeil of a creature under the effects of Bull's Strength when painted keep the +4 Enhancement forever? Does killing the original creature affect the Trompe L'oeil? If the answer to both of those is "no", then you've got a problem with temporary control effects. If the answer to either of those is "yes", then this works.Good points. The ground is grayest, I think, with things like the Command Undead feat, which gives you "permanent" control (until it makes a save). Spells with definite durations...more on the "unlikely to fly" side.



A wizard is also one of the most likely people to figure it out. Detect Magic is at-will in Pathfinder, and is also used for magic item identification....
Well, there IS magic aura and nondetection, but yes. He's still the most likely to figure it out.

[Jack_Simth]

Were I to try it for thematic purposes, my Trompe L'oeils would be scattered about, in the halls of rich and powerful figures, decorating government centers, etc. And they'd be my spies and ears, visited periodically by the Trompe L'oeil of my familiar (so it could hide in the painting with them in case somebody comes in while they're talking).

Nice little spy network... handy way of avoiding divinations, but a very expensive way to do it. Note that you probably don't want to hang the "real" painting in the target areas. A Trompe L'oeil can entry any painting, after all, so you make them in your workshop, put them into the transport painting, and put the transport painting wherever.


Depending on my ambitions and maleficence, they may also be my assassins. Closed room murder, anybody?

That one is very easy to do in Pathfinder, Trompe L'oeil or no.


Not to mention the possibilities of an army. A great work of a Trompe L'oiel mural on the inside of a city wall, featuring the massed armies of the kingdom "steadfastly guarding the city" could be impressive. Especially since you could probably convince the city to pay you for it, and a mural that size has a highly negotiable market v
Problem: Unless they're all fairly high leveled, it's cheaper to simply have a standing army for quite some time. Assuming for the moment that the basic foot soldier is a "trained hireling", you have to feed and shelter him at "common" inn rates, and equip him as a basic 1 NPC, then it costs 260 gp each to equip them and 11 sp/day to maintain them (3 sp pay, 3 sp food, 5 sp lodging).

A Trompe L'oiel likely doesn't have much in maintenance costs, but for that standard Human Warrior-1 has a market price of 3,000 gp. That's initial equipment and nearly seven years of pay, food, and lodging. Yes, the Trompe L'oiel is a better long-term investment (doesn't get killed, probably doesn't age, and doesn't sleep on the job), but a LOT of people don't think that far ahead.

Although... the adventurer on the go that wants to defend a city can make a self-portrait in a few days (assuming, of course, that it doesn't take too long to make the painting, which is probably the most time-consuming part before Fabricate comes online). The self-portrait can then make further Trompe L'oeil's of any relevant people who'd want the city protected. These Trompe L'oeil's can then go hang out in regular murals around the city (the real paintings should be kept in a secure location).

Heh. That makes for an interesting campaign idea... some adventurers had other things they wanted to be doing, so they just copied themselves and continued on their way. The PC's are the copies. They've been tasked with .

Good points. The ground is grayest, I think, with things like the Command Undead feat, which gives you "permanent" control (until it makes a save). Spells with definite durations...more on the "unlikely to fly" side.
Also keep in mind that the only magical item they explicitly get is a weapon... if they're painted with it.

Well, there IS [I]magic aura and nondetection, but yes. He's still the most likely to figure it out.
Neither of those is reliable. The first has a save on close examination, and the second offers a caster level check (and has an expensive component).

[unseenmage]

So, a question for the more game-balance-minded; Would making the Trompe L'oeil price adhere to the generic construct pricing info (namely CR2*500) make it less of an exploit? If not what multiplier would you suggest?

I also catch myself wondering on the difference between crafting a (more properly costed) Trompe L'oeil of a Wizard and simply either Dominate-ing/Enslaving or just hiring a wizard. Cost benefit wise I mean.
Sure a hired Wizard won't die for you and a Dominated Wizard will likely not happen because, well, it's a Wizard. But still, gaining access to additional PC class abilities is an attainable thing. Leadership, Create Undead for a Skeletal Champion, Simulacrum, and I'm sure there are other ways. Some even have straight gp costs attached. Some are just as commandable as the Trompe L'oeil.

I agree the thing as listed is too cheap. My contention is that there is likely a reasonable price for them that could, theoretically, be extrapolated.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... well, assuming for a minute that we're not worried about how much other options cost, and we just want to figure out "what is another character worth, game-wise?" Assuming also that a Trompe L'oeil comes with no equipment other than mundane gear and the stated weapon....

Step 1: What expected amount of "power" comes from a character's wealth? How far down do you adjust an NPC if it doesn't have equipment? Once CR? Two? Three? AKA, what's the expected CR adjustment of the "Penniless" template?
Step 2: If a Heroic NPC spent all wealth on Trompe L'oeil's, how many of what CR would it take to get the NPC back up to the expected encounter level?

That number of Trompe L'oeil's should cost all of that Heroic NPC's wealth allotment.

So if, say, "Penniless" is a -2 CR template, then a Trompe L'oeil at CR X should cost the full wealth allotment of a Heroic NPC of CR X+2 - as then the Penniless Heroic NPC + the Trompe L'oeil would be the same encounter level as the non-Penniless Heroic NPC.

[Coidzor]

So is the consensus that 500 gp/HD is A-OK for Waxwork Creatures, then, or has that just been overshadowed by the much more powerful and tricky Oil-based Ice Assassin?

[Jack_Simth]

So is the consensus that 500 gp/HD is A-OK for Waxwork Creatures, then, or has that just been overshadowed by the much more powerful and tricky Oil-based Ice Assassin?
Overshadowed, mostly, but checking....

Waxwork creatures are priced basically the same way zombies and skeletons are. They have negligible special abilities, are by default mindless, and are thus basically just useful as combat brutes. Regenerating combat brutes, but just combat brutes. You can add intelligence if you want it to replace someone specific... but they're basically just combat brutes. A nice Red Dragon, disguised to seem to be the real deal (to keep people from burning it) might be actually useful.... but only really as a combat brute (and maybe a steed).

So yes, those do have reasonably linear use.

[Segev]

Although... the adventurer on the go that wants to defend a city can make a self-portrait in a few days (assuming, of course, that it doesn't take too long to make the painting, which is probably the most time-consuming part before Fabricate comes online). The self-portrait can then make further Trompe L'oeil's of any relevant people who'd want the city protected. These Trompe L'oeil's can then go hang out in regular murals around the city (the real paintings should be kept in a secure location).

Yeah, playing with the math, making a 500 gp painting would take about 10 weeks for somebody who could manage a consisted DC in the 20-25 range. Crafting rules are not pretty when it comes to time, if you don't have a 9th level caster to handle it for you. x_x As well, there's something cooler about the caster who lovingly makes his paintings before animating them, that fabricate detracts from.

There is an alternate solution, but it's cheesy as all get-out: a command-activated item of unseen servant, in the hands of an assistant whose job is to just keep using it and directing the servants to aid in the painting, could make 600 unseen servants in one hour. After that, the creation rate and the expiry rate would equal. So one 1800 gp item and an assistant can get you 600 aid another attempts. Unseen servants have a 50% chance of succeeding on an Aid Another attempt. Craft:Painting is not something that requires training, so they are allowed to Aid (since Aid Another has a DC of 10). So 600 unseen servants all aiding the same task grants a +600 bonus.

That, plus whatever the painter himself actually provides, is enough to get a DC 20 craftwork made in roughly 2 hours. So 3, if the ramp-up hour is just used to start piling up unseen servants.

Like I said, cheesy as all get-out, and arguments can rage over whether that many invisible extra hands really can provide meaningful help. But it would make the crafting time on a 500 gp painting manageable. (And the "middle ground" is basically sitting on a slippery slope, because once you engage the unseen servant aid another tactic, stopping before 600 is a matter of taste/choice.)

For the 8000 gp painting of a Colossal creature, it'd be 32 hours at that rate. So about 3 days, assuming standard 8-hour work days.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, playing with the math, making a 500 gp painting would take about 10 weeks for somebody who could manage a consisted DC in the 20-25 range. Crafting rules are not pretty when it comes to time, if you don't have a 9th level caster to handle it for you. x_x As well, there's something cooler about the caster who lovingly makes his paintings before animating them, that fabricate detracts from. Hmm... taking the opposite route...

A Pathfinder Wizard is reasonably expected to put an 18 in Int in a point buy, then get a +2 racial on top of that. At 5th, he may have a +2 Headband, and will have dropped one point in Intelligence. Craft is a class skill, so with max ranks he's likely to have +14 from ranks and ability. Crafter's Fortune is good for another +5, and a masterwork tool gives +2, so +21 is a fairly reasonable modifier. The painting is Masterwork, so DC 20. Take ten, and do the voluntary +10 to DC, and you're multiplying 31 by 30 each check. 930 sp of progress a week. That 500 gp painting takes 5.37 weeks. That 8,000 gp painting, 86.02 weeks. The 2,000 gp painting for a medium humanoid, 21.51 weeks.

Not a short route, unless the paintings are already present, or Fabricate is available. Still, faster than most of the golems for the size of the creature!

[Segev]

Crafter's fortune introduces an interesting wrinkle in the rules. By the rules, you are allowed to do craft checks weekly or daily, with the daily option just dividing the sp you generate by 7 (number of days in a week).

Crafter's fortune operates on the next craft check the target makes.

(X+5)*(Y) vs. 7*((X+5)*(Y)/7)... no, never mind, that works out a wash. Good. (Still posting this because it's useful information even if it's evidence I was being silly when I started writing it.)


It DOES mean that your unseen servants or other Aid Another assistants now succeed an average of 3 out of 4 times. So instead of getting an average of +1 per aide, you can get an average of +3 for every 2 aides. (Assuming the aides have 10 Int and no training in the skill.)

Are there any other spells that can help with or speed up crafting mundane items, aside from the obvious fabricate? Preferably usable at level 5, obviously, since we're discussing "what can you make when you first get Craft Construct?"

[Coidzor]

3.P would have Unseen Crafter.

A Tears to Wine effect that was kept up would give an Enhancement bonus to mental skills.

A Genius Avaricious coin made to buff a craft skill would provide a bonus but be higher level.

Summon Laborers would also be higher level, but increases the effect of spending Labor Capital to get a bonus on the check.

Goods Capital can cut the cost to make in half in exchange for increasing the time to gather materials.

A cheap +X Competence bonus item would be affordable, IIRC.

Guidance is spammable.

Amazing Tools of Manufacture give a +4 instead of +2 like ordinary MW Tools. They also allow one to make a lot of progress in crafting something in exchange for increasing the price.

Alternate Crafting Rules are per day and each +5 over the DC multiplies progress by x2 to x3 to x4, and so on. IIRC, it also gives prices for hiring assistances with better chances of Aiding Another.

[Segev]

Amazing Tools of Manufacture would be ideal, if only they weren't more than the total GP of a 5th level character. Though they can be made for 6000 gp. Worth keeping in mind. Though you'd need them twice if you wanted both quick Trompe L'oeils and (relatively) quick golems. But then, golems are out of reach for several levels. And some of the lower-level golems aren't that pricey in materials. Or the price is for raw materials, and there's no "craft cost" to convert them other than needing to meet a DC.

Tears to wine is interesting because it's an enhancement bonus, but would stack with a Headband because the Headband gave an enhancement bonus to Int, not to the skill check, and the tears to wine is giving enhancement directly to the skill check.

Genius avaricious, however, wouldn't stack with crafter's fortune, and that is cheaper and provides a better effect (for this purpose) at lower level.

Not sure the labor rules quite apply, and summon laborers seems like it's redundant with spamming unseen servant. Heck, for the unseen servant, it's arguable that they can pile into a single space, whereas it's hard to argue that for petitioners.

But definitely a nice list! Thanks for putting it together!

Edit: Found another gem. Visualization of the mind lets you choose a mental stat, and get a +5 (unnamed) bonus to ability and skill checks associated with it. Lasts 24 hours. (It can be expended early for unique effects related to the stats, too, but the key thing for this thread is the additional +5 to the skills.)


So we're looking at a 22-int (+6 bonus) crafter with 5 ranks and proficiency in craft (+8 bonus, +14 total so far), with masterwork tools (+2 bonus, +16 so far) and visualization of the mind for Intelligence (+5 bonus, +21 so far).

Take 10 for a total of 31, voluntarily raise the craft DC to 30, and we're at just over 5 weeks to complete the 500 gp painting, without real cheese. (With some definite focus, but nothing here is exploiting unintended interactions aside, perhaps, from there being so many potential bonuses.)

[unseenmage]

IIRC there are archetypes which either get early access to Craft Construct or start with it even. Either way Mythic adventurers can have it online early too.
That said Cooperative Crafting (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cooperative%20Crafting) is really nice for nanobot crafters.


I would recommend using the Alternate Crafting rules and the Building and Modifying Constructs: Price by CR for making Constructs. Greatly simplifies the whole mess that they are. So far Heralds (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arcanotheign) and Alter Egos are the only normally-non-craftable things we've had to ban doing things this way and we're on our second/third playthrough of the Iron Gods AP.
Trompe L'oeil are on the chopping block and honestly this thread has me convinced they're borked enough for a solid banning. We'd already largely banned Simulacrums too, especially in a Tech enabled game where Simulacrums of Animated Object Tech Artifacts are a thing.

[Coidzor]

Amazing Tools of Manufacture would be ideal, if only they weren't more than the total GP of a 5th level character. Though they can be made for 6000 gp. Worth keeping in mind. Though you'd need them twice if you wanted both quick Trompe L'oeils and (relatively) quick golems. But then, golems are out of reach for several levels. And some of the lower-level golems aren't that pricey in materials. Or the price is for raw materials, and there's no "craft cost" to convert them other than needing to meet a DC.

Yeah, I forgot to double check the item's price, sorry. :smallredface: Honestly kinda wish there was a way to reverse engineer the item so you could separate out increasing the circumstance bonus from the fast crafting setting.


Tears to wine (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tears-to-wine) is interesting because it's an enhancement bonus, but would stack with a Headband because the Headband gave an enhancement bonus to Int, not to the skill check, and the tears to wine is giving enhancement directly to the skill check.

It's really such a great little spell. :smallamused:


Genius avaricious, however, wouldn't stack with crafter's fortune, and that is cheaper and provides a better effect (for this purpose) at lower level.

I think RAI it wouldn't, but by a strict RAW reading of the spell, Genius Avaricious (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/genius-avaricious/) gives an untyped bonus. At most tables though, Crafter's Fortune is the way to go, no question.


Not sure the labor rules quite apply, and summon laborers seems like it's redundant with spamming unseen servant. Heck, for the unseen servant, it's arguable that they can pile into a single space, whereas it's hard to argue that for petitioners.

Basically, if you do Crafting as a Downtime (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/)activity, you can use Goods to pay the material cost (so you're actually paying 1/6th the price) and each point of Labor you spend gives you a +2 on the Craft check. It probably doesn't stack with lots of Aid Anothers in practice, even if it might by RAW.

Summon Laborers (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-laborers/) either makes 1 point of Labor per 2 CL give a +3 instead of a +2 or it lets you spend 1 point of Labor per 2 CL for free as long as you've spent at least double the amount in Labor that you had to earn or buy.

Part of me suspects that having a bunch of petitioners from Elysium Aiding Another to Perform in order to make money for you may actually be more useful in many cases.


But definitely a nice list! Thanks for putting it together!

You're welcome, I'm just glad my stalled out effort to figure out how to buff crafting like a mofo is useful somewhere. :smallredface:


Edit: Found another gem. Visualization of the mind (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind/) lets you choose a mental stat, and get a +5 (unnamed) bonus to ability and skill checks associated with it. Lasts 24 hours. (It can be expended early for unique effects related to the stats, too, but the key thing for this thread is the additional +5 to the skills.)

Nice. :smallbiggrin: That's a new one to me, I missed it when I was going through downtime spells back in November (that or it wasn't up yet). That's getting added to the list for sure. Even makes for a nice buff to Profession for anyone doing some Sailing or running a business. :smallamused:

Now just to actually get it to the point where it's actually organized enough to be useful to anyone and isn't sharing so much information it'll get taken down...


So we're looking at a 22-int (+6 bonus) crafter with 5 ranks and proficiency in craft (+8 bonus, +14 total so far), with masterwork tools (+2 bonus, +16 so far) and visualization of the mind for Intelligence (+5 bonus, +21 so far).

Take 10 for a total of 31, voluntarily raise the craft DC to 30, and we're at just over 5 weeks to complete the 500 gp painting, without real cheese. (With some definite focus, but nothing here is exploiting unintended interactions aside, perhaps, from there being so many potential bonuses.)

Pretty good, I'd say.

I was just doublechecking the Artisan's Workshop from the Downtime system and unfortunately it seems like having 3 sets of MW Artisan's Tools for 165 total is still cheaper than building(180) or buying(360) an Artisan's Workshop, especially since only 3 creatures can work in a single Artisan's Workshop space. I thought for sure it was 5 creatures in one of those, in order to make them cost effective when used directly instead of as a capital generation method.

If you can get access to an item of it, Threefold Aspect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/threefold-aspect/) can be useful for a +4 Enhancement bonus to both Int and Wis simultaneously, in case one was planning on doing Craft when Wis-focused or Profession when Int-focused. A 1/day item would be 10,080 gp, though.

[unseenmage]

...

I was just looking up the Artisan's Workshop from the Downtime system and unfortunately it seems like having 3 sets of MW Artisan's Tools for 165 total is still cheaper than building(180) or buying(360) an Artisan's Workshop, especially since only 3 creatures can work in a single Artisan's Workshop space. I thought for sure it was 5 creatures in one of those, in order to make them cost effective when used directly instead of as a capital generation method.
Is it possible one could muck about with creature sizes vs workspace size and/or the Squeezing rules to cram more artisans in there or is it a hard cap of how many can benefit from the space?

Alternatively, could one build a Young (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html#young-creature), Degenerate (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html#degenerate-creature) Animated Object of the building in question (buildings have prices and sizes in 5' squares) to get it for cheaper, Awaken Construct on it, and have it a) craft on its own or b) aid with crafting?

[Coidzor]

Is it possible one could muck about with creature sizes vs workspace size and/or the Squeezing rules to cram more artisans in there or is it a hard cap of how many can benefit from the space?

Alternatively, could one build a Young (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html#young-creature), Degenerate (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html#degenerate-creature) Animated Object of the building in question (buildings have prices and sizes in 5' squares) to get it for cheaper, Awaken Construct on it, and have it a) craft on its own or b) aid with crafting?

I'd say that if you've got a reasonable DM, then Tiny-sized and *maybe* Small-sized creatures might be able to make more use of it, but as it stands, it's just "three people," point blank as the RAW.

I don't think there's any particular rules about room spaces and sizes and creature sizes interacting, but I haven't memorized everything in Downtime.

Also, ooo, I forgot all about the Degenerate simple template. I need to add that to my list of CR -1 templates for making construct assistants.

I think that might allow for one to make a Degenerate Tiny Animated Object as a CR 1/8th creature for 31.25 gp(after applying CR reductions from construction flaws). I suppose if Young and Degenerate can be applied to a Tiny Animated Object, that'd make it Diminutive and CR 1/10th and 25 gp construction cost. Your very own pet mecha-rat, I guess.

[Segev]

I was going to ask what the point of the Degenerate template was, then I remembered that the CR-for-price rules for constructs exist. My one big complaint about those is that they don't list a CL associated. Just a price.

Also, while perusing spells, I found one called raging rubble (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/r/raging-rubble) that creates what is essentially a specialized Animated Object, which further has stats put together (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/r/raging-rubble) as an animated object...and it spells out that they assigned a construction point to the Swarm trait.

This opens up interesting opportunities. I'd been trying to figure out how to make a bag of caltrops as an Animated Object. Now I have one: Medium Animated Object, 2 CP for Metal, 1 CP for Swarm.

Of course, an easier deployment method is an unseen servant spreading them for you where you want them, and then picking them up afterwards, but an Animated Object swarm has a certain amount of style.

[unseenmage]

I was going to ask what the point of the Degenerate template was, then I remembered that the CR-for-price rules for constructs exist. My one big complaint about those is that they don't list a CL associated. Just a price.

...

I always just default to the CL for Custom Magic Items.

At our table we've also houseruled that any spell listed in the Construct's stats is required at creation; excepting spell lists as those can make the Spellcraft DC to craft them spiral out of control pretty quick. Then again, Constructs with spell lists maybe should have a ridiculous crafting DC.

[Segev]

I always just default to the CL for Custom Magic Items.

At our table we've also houseruled that any spell listed in the Construct's stats is required at creation; excepting spell lists as those can make the Spellcraft DC to craft them spiral out of control pretty quick. Then again, Constructs with spell lists maybe should have a ridiculous crafting DC.
Wouldn't that make Animated Objects out of reach of people who are below CL 11, since animate objects is a 6th level spell?

[Coidzor]

I was going to ask what the point of the Degenerate template was, then I remembered that the CR-for-price rules for constructs exist. My one big complaint about those is that they don't list a CL associated. Just a price.

Yeah, in the absence of that, my gut instinct is to say that the CL should probably either be HD or CR. Minimum 1 or 5, I suppose.

[unseenmage]

Wouldn't that make Animated Objects out of reach of people who are below CL 11, since animate objects is a 6th level spell?
To my knowledge one can still ignore the listed CL of any Magic Item or Construct unless that CL is specifically called out as being a prerequisite. Even then it can be skipped by increasing the DC to make the thing.

It's because of how the CLs are listed IIRC, they're listed with the other prerequisites that are given as examples of being ignorable. IIRC it's just a couple of Golems that have CL requirements described in another fashion.


Yeah, in the absence of that, my gut instinct is to say that the CL should probably either be HD or CR. Minimum 1 or 5, I suppose.
From what I've seen in PF HD is almost always higher than CR for Constructs, and even then it doesn't matter since they only get bonus hp based on size.

[Coidzor]

Any good ways to give Energy Resistance or Immunity to Waxwork Creatures or Animated Objects with Construction Flaws that make them vulnerable to Fire and/or Cold damage?

So far it seems like 9K to build them with the Energy Resistance Armor Property is about it, unless you can build them a custom magic item to give them Resist Energy(Fire) as a wondrous item for 6K in crafting gp are the main options.

That or just casting Resist Energy or Protection from Energy on them if it comes up.

[Segev]

To my knowledge one can still ignore the listed CL of any Magic Item or Construct unless that CL is specifically called out as being a prerequisite. Even then it can be skipped by increasing the DC to make the thing.

It's because of how the CLs are listed IIRC, they're listed with the other prerequisites that are given as examples of being ignorable. IIRC it's just a couple of Golems that have CL requirements described in another fashion.The rules on building constructs (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs) say that constructs are an exception to that rule:


Like when crafting magic items, a creator with a sufficiently high skill bonus may ignore these requirements. Each missing requirement increases the Craft DC by 5. Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements.(emphasis added)


Any good ways to give Energy Resistance or Immunity to Waxwork Creatures or Animated Objects with Construction Flaws that make them vulnerable to Fire and/or Cold damage?

So far it seems like 9K to build them with the Energy Resistance Armor Property is about it, unless you can build them a custom magic item to give them Resist Energy(Fire) as a wondrous item for 6K in crafting gp are the main options.

That or just casting Resist Energy or Protection from Energy on them if it comes up.Just casting it on them seems like the most cost-effective method. They are flaws that hurt, and...well, that's a good thing for balance, honestly.



And now, another thing. PF made much more flexible and customizable (and, honestly, straight-forward) Intelligent Item rules. Is there anything interesting we can do by making Animated Objects (or other constructs) Intelligent? Specifically, that we wouldn't get from just starting with an intelligent construct (e.g. a Trompe L'oeil). And, is it a bad idea because it could steal the creator's control?

[Coidzor]

Intelligent variations of Clockwork Servants seem to retain their loyalty to their creator/master and their cost increase is basically the same as the base cost to make a construct into an intelligent item would be.

I can't think of anything in particular that you would use it for, other than being less cheesy than a Trompe L'oeil due to having an additional cost for intelligence and basically just adding on feats and skills to what is otherwise a bucket of HP, Strength and Dexterity scores, and some attacks.

You could still make replacement/supplementary party members or assistants for (relatively) cheap, since with feats you could get a construct with Trapfinding and get a good Disable Device and Perception even without using the rules to embed it with Ioun Stones so it has max ranks in skills X, Y, and Z and treats them as class skills.

A Waxwork Erlking has pretty good Strength and Dexterity scores and 20 HD, which is pretty great for a Medium-sized creature. They're about human-sized so it costs 10,000 gp to make them plus the cost of wax. Sealing wax is 1 gp a pound, so it's probably less than that, but even at that price, it'd be around 80 to 100 pounds of wax, so 10,100 gp to make a 20 HD creature, and another 1,000 or so to make it intelligent and have 2 skill points per HD and 10 feats.

A Waxwork Norn basically swaps the Strength and Dexterity scores and has the same HD but is Large sized. Norns being Large-sized does mean they cost significantly more, but it's still not that much compared to the 11,000 to account for their HD and basic Intelligence.

Granted, I can't recall creatures with 5 HD and decent ability scores that are Small, Medium, or Large offhand, but I think maybe some Outsiders fit that description.

If they have 7 HD(such as through HD modification), then they can take Master Craftsman, Cooperative Crafting, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, IIRC. So that's 4,500+materials to double your magic item crafting of the two most common types of magic item.

[Segev]

Honestly kinda wish there was a way to reverse engineer the item so you could separate out increasing the circumstance bonus from the fast crafting setting.

Given that the circumstance bonus for a normal masterwork tool is +2, and a generic masterwork tool is 50 gp, I can't imagine that the additional +2 is going to be a significant chunk of that cost.

If we assume the standard magic item formula (CL x spell level x 2000, for a continuous item), we know the CL is 3, so that leaves us with a spell level of 2.

...except that the acceleration effect works only 1/day. That implies an x5 to the price of the item if it were TRULY a use-activated item. That'd be a base price of 60,000 gp.

So 60,000 = (3 x [spell level] x 2000) = 6,000 x [spell level]
Which would make this a 10th level spell!

Somehow, I don't think something that is worse than fabricate is 10th level. I'll go ahead and assume the initial 2nd level spell is accurate, and the "once per day" thing is an ad hoc flaw added to the item.

So perhaps there is a way to deduce a 2nd level spell of appropriate power to replicate this effect:

Swift Crafting
Sorcerer/Wizard 2
School: Transmutation
Casting Time: 1 hour
Components: S, M, F
Range: Personal
Effect: One crafted item
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You work with an intensity of focus and amazing precision, speed, and decisiveness that allows you to accomplish one week's worth of work with a Craft skill in the time it takes to cast this spell. The casting is, itself, the act of working on the item being created. You must be trained in the Craft skill you are using, and have a set of appropriate masterwork tools to that Craft, and you must have all the raw materials (one-third of the final market value of the item to be made) available as the material component, which is "consumed" by the spell as your work transforms it into the finished piece. At the end of the casting time, make a single Craft roll against the finished product's DC; if you fail, this spell and casting time were wasted. If you fail too badly, materials are ruined as normal for the Crafting rules.

The progress you make towards the completion of the item during the casting of this spell is 200 gp + 300 gp per rank in the appropriate Craft that you have. If this is insufficient to complete the item in that time, you may continue to work on it using the normal crafting rules (with the value you've completed already counting towards your progress), or by casting this spell again using the remaining materials and the incomplete piece as the material components; the additional progress of the new casting adds to the already-complete progress.

[Segev]

If they have 7 HD (such as through HD modification), then they can take Master Craftsman, Cooperative Crafting, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, IIRC. So that's 4,500+materials to double your magic item crafting of the two most common types of magic item.

Well, a Large Animated Object automatically has 7 HD.

Interestingly, not only does giving the CREATURE "animated object" an intelligence score make its 7 HD grant it skill points and feats, but it gains access to the "intelligent item powers" which include, for 2500 gp, 5 ranks of a skill. That's actually 5 ranks, rather than a mere +5 competence bonus, despite being priced like a magic item competence bonus. And the Intelligent Item rules insist that you must give at least one "power" to the item, on top of its 500 gp base price addition. (Weirdly, as an aside, its 1000 gp to have a 0th level spell at will, but 2000 gp to have it Read Magic. But...read magic is a 0th level spell. So if you want read magic...)


One idea that I'm plucking from a wistful regret that it didn't work is an Animated Musical Instrument. Either as its own self-playing thing or as a potentially-secret assistant to a skilled performer, a Cha 1 no-skill animated (say) lute would have a -5 to Perform checks. On its own, it'd be quite bad. Trying to Aid Another, it'd only succeed 30% of the time (on a 15+). Make it Intelligent and it immediately gets a 10 Cha, and even with only 1 HD it can take a rank of Perform (strings). It even has a feat; go ahead and give it Skill Focus. Or Cosmopolitan (making it a class skill is also a +3). Throw the 5 ranks at it from the intelligent item powers, and it's got 6 ranks. No other bonuses, but hey, it's now got only a 15% chance of FAILING to successfully Aid Another a skilled performer!

A bit expensive for a mere +2, admittedly. But it can play itself passably well, too. Plus, it's cool.

[Coidzor]

Well, a Large Animated Object automatically has 7 HD.

Right. I have Waxwork Creatures on the brain. :smallredface:

Partially because I'm thinking about making a construct crafter if I survive just so one of my friend's characters can have a pet Waxwork Ogre after he got his last pet ogre killed off.


Interestingly, not only does giving the CREATURE "animated object" an intelligence score make its 7 HD grant it skill points and feats, but it gains access to the "intelligent item powers" which include, for 2500 gp, 5 ranks of a skill. That's actually 5 ranks, rather than a mere +5 competence bonus, despite being priced like a magic item competence bonus. And the Intelligent Item rules insist that you must give at least one "power" to the item, on top of its 500 gp base price addition. (Weirdly, as an aside, its 1000 gp to have a 0th level spell at will, but 2000 gp to have it Read Magic. But...read magic is a 0th level spell. So if you want read magic...)

I like Guidance for that, since, hey, free at-will +1? Why not?


One idea that I'm plucking from a wistful regret that it didn't work is an Animated Musical Instrument. Either as its own self-playing thing or as a potentially-secret assistant to a skilled performer, a Cha 1 no-skill animated (say) lute would have a -5 to Perform checks. On its own, it'd be quite bad. Trying to Aid Another, it'd only succeed 30% of the time (on a 15+). Make it Intelligent and it immediately gets a 10 Cha, and even with only 1 HD it can take a rank of Perform (strings). It even has a feat; go ahead and give it Skill Focus. Or Cosmopolitan (making it a class skill is also a +3). Throw the 5 ranks at it from the intelligent item powers, and it's got 6 ranks. No other bonuses, but hey, it's now got only a 15% chance of FAILING to successfully Aid Another a skilled performer!

A bit expensive for a mere +2, admittedly. But it can play itself passably well, too. Plus, it's cool.

That's a neat idea, I'll have to yoink that for my catalog. :smallbiggrin:

I approached things a bit differently when I was playing around with the idea, going from having a normal magic item and then making it into an Intelligent Magic Item to do things for its master.

Only really put together a rough skeleton, though, of two versions of a rope/twine crafting machine and a set of flying auto-lockpicks. Got a bit bogged down by real life drama when I was trying to figure out what the Spellcraft DC to make the bloody things was supposed to be. :smallredface:

Basic Crafting Item: Robe of Infinite Twine with Speech, 3/day Crafter’s Fortune, Limbs, and 5 skill ranks: 500(robe) + 250 (base) + 250(speech) + 600 (SLA) + 1,250 (skill) + 2,500 (limbs) = 5,350 gp total for a +10 modifier on Craft skills.

Base Spellcraft DC: ?

Commentary: Compare with a more versatile construct, or a horde of Tiny Animated Objects made with drawbacks and aiding another. Can produce the raw material to craft basically anything from rope or twine or hemp fibers. 535 gp to Craft skill bonus ratio.


Advanced Crafting Item: Robe of Infinite Twine (+5 Competence bonus item) with Int 20, Speech, 120’ vision, 3/day Crafter’s Fortune, Limbs, 10 skill ranks: 2,375 (robe) + 250 (base) + 4,000 (Int) + 250 (speech) + 500 (vision) + 600 (SLA) + 5,000 (skill) + 2,500 (limbs) = 15,475 gp total for a +25 modifier on a Craft skill

Base Spellcraft DC: ?

Commentary: 619 gp to Craft skill bonus ratio, even with the frills, and it has 2 additional uses of it to share around.


Flying Lockpicks: MW Thieves’ Tools (+5 Competence bonus Item) with Speech, Guidance at-will, Flight, and 10 skill ranks: 1,350(tools) + 250 (base) + 250 (speech) + 500 (SLA) + 5,000 (flight) + 5,000 (skill) = 12,350 gp total for a +18 modifier on Disable Device.

Base Spellcraft DC: ?

Commentary: Compare to a middling HD minion with mundane MW thieves’ tools and a good Dexterity score. ~686.11 gp to DD skill bonus ratio. Speech can probably be dropped, but you might also like it to be able to tell you that it's succeeded or failed before going to open the door. Figure out a way to add Trapfinding and Perception and you have a pocket-Rogue.

[Segev]

What's the "Limbs" modification you list? An Animated Objects thing, or an Intelligent Objects thing? I'm not finding it.

[Coidzor]

What's the "Limbs" modification you list? An Animated Objects thing, or an Intelligent Objects thing? I'm not finding it.

On the table of powers for Intelligent Items(the base powers, not the special purpose powers):


46-50 Item can sprout limbs and move with a speed of 10 feet

[Segev]

On the table of powers for Intelligent Items(the base powers, not the special purpose powers):

Oh! Huh. That's...a little bizarre.

[Coidzor]

Oh! Huh. That's...a little bizarre.

Yes, yes it is, but I like quirky things. Probably too much, really

It also seemed like a way to sidestep the questions of having a construct under your control go uncontrolled and under the power of the intelligent item by just having an intelligent item you had to deal with and giving it a special purpose of doing a task that would make it unlikely to wander off.

[Segev]

I'm honestly of the opinion that making it intelligent doesn't change its obedience. But yeah.

Now, to actually price out gear and item-crafting supplies for this character. The DM isn't going to let me spend GP at half value during chargen, so I am probably going to save "craft supplies" to do the crafting once the game gets going.

One of the items I'll start with, though, is a suit of clothing animated into a "flight suit." Not sure which outfit to use as a base. The character's a prince, but I'm unsure if he'd have enchanted his royal outfit or a suit of more modest traveling clothes. He probably got it fitted specially so that it could heft him comfortably, without pinching or chafing, when he had it carry him.

Other than that, though: Medium Animated Object (outfit of clothes; 3 HD), cloth (-1 CP), slow (10 ft.; -2 CP), flight (30 ft. [clumsy]; +1 CP). 1000 gp base price, plus price of base outfit. Make it have a +1 enhancement to armor so it can bear other enchantments, later, as well: +1000 gp.

Considering animating the spellbook, too. Having a spellbook that'll actively seek out its master if it gets separated from him could be useful. Going to have the 500 gp already-completed painting of his familiar in the front inside page of the book, too; can spend the time to enchant it as a Trompe L'oeil later.

Making sure I keep space open in my budget for spells and a headband of intellect will be tricky.

[Jack_Simth]

Other than that, though: Medium Animated Object (outfit of clothes; 3 HD), cloth (-1 CP), slow (10 ft.; -2 CP), flight (30 ft. [clumsy]; +1 CP). 1000 gp base price, plus price of base outfit. Make it have a +1 enhancement to armor so it can bear other enchantments, later, as well: +1000 gp. Is it strong enough to carry you and your gear while flying?

Ignoring that, though: The solution as to what style of clothes to make it is simple: It's a bodysuit you wear under other clothing (aka, long johns). Need to fly in your royal apparel? Gotcha covered. Need to blend in a little better? Not a problem.

[Coidzor]

I'm honestly of the opinion that making it intelligent doesn't change its obedience. But yeah.

Now, to actually price out gear and item-crafting supplies for this character. The DM isn't going to let me spend GP at half value during chargen, so I am probably going to save "craft supplies" to do the crafting once the game gets going.

Can you Earn Capital and stockpile Magic or Goods?


One of the items I'll start with, though, is a suit of clothing animated into a "flight suit." Not sure which outfit to use as a base. The character's a prince, but I'm unsure if he'd have enchanted his royal outfit or a suit of more modest traveling clothes. He probably got it fitted specially so that it could heft him comfortably, without pinching or chafing, when he had it carry him.

Other than that, though: Medium Animated Object (outfit of clothes; 3 HD), cloth (-1 CP), slow (10 ft.; -2 CP), flight (30 ft. [clumsy]; +1 CP). 1000 gp base price, plus price of base outfit. Make it have a +1 enhancement to armor so it can bear other enchantments, later, as well: +1000 gp.

Considering animating the spellbook, too. Having a spellbook that'll actively seek out its master if it gets separated from him could be useful. Going to have the 500 gp already-completed painting of his familiar in the front inside page of the book, too; can spend the time to enchant it as a Trompe L'oeil later.

Making sure I keep space open in my budget for spells and a headband of intellect will be tricky.

Sounds great and very interesting and even flavorful.

I think that may also be the new cheapest way to get flight.

Really makes me wish that Construct Armor was better, too.

[Segev]

Is it strong enough to carry you and your gear while flying?

Ignoring that, though: The solution as to what style of clothes to make it is simple: It's a bodysuit you wear under other clothing (aka, long johns). Need to fly in your royal apparel? Gotcha covered. Need to blend in a little better? Not a problem.

Dagfirnit, you're right. ST 14 light load is 35 lbs. Frankly, my wizard probably can't technically fly with a fly spell and his standard gear, with his ST of 7.

To get to a strength that can carry even a 170-lb human (ignoring all his gear), you'd need a ST 22 construct. That's Large. And even that's pushing it. Hrm.

[Coidzor]

Dagfirnit, you're right. ST 14 light load is 35 lbs. Frankly, my wizard probably can't technically fly with a fly spell and his standard gear, with his ST of 7.

To get to a strength that can carry even a 170-lb human (ignoring all his gear), you'd need a ST 22 construct. That's Large. And even that's pushing it. Hrm.

I suppose the Advanced Simple Template would boost it by 4. 100 pounds or less would probably work if you were a Small character, I suppose. It'd have to be something fairly bulky to be worn by a Small character but count as a Medium-sized animated object, though, or if a Medium character were wearing a Large-sized animated object.

Maybe lots of layers? Pop-out wings?

A Large-sized Animated Object with 22 Str would get boosted to 26 by the Advanced simple template, and 306 pounds or less should easily cover a wizard and his gear, at least as long as he's not fat. Final CR would be 3 instead of 2 with all the construction flaws and the baseline CP spent on giving it Flight and making the fly speed faster.

Of course, you'd need to compare the cost of the Advanced Simple Template with boosting Str by 2 twice, since IIRC that's just 4K gp each time you do it and you can stack it ad nauseum.

[Segev]

The issue with the Advanced Simple template is that it has no actual impact on the price of an Animated Object, to a crafter. It adds +1 CR, but the Animated Object rules don't care.

On the other hand, a fairly exhaustive search of the rules and internet discussion (to see if they'd found something I hadn't) reveals that PF doesn't actually have a rule that says you can't fly with greater than a heavy load. Likewise, nothing says that Fly speeds are not reduced by medium and heavy loads. And since they're Speeds, the default rules would apply without something saying otherwise.


Therefore, I'm probably "okay" with Medium Animated Object clothes carrying my character, as long as he's a relatively light Medium human (less than 170 lbs, including clothes and whatever gear he personally carries). (Since he's got a Str of 7, he isn't going to be carrying much, himself.) The heavy-load animated clothes will be reduced from a flight speed of 30 to a flight speed of 20. I could buy +10 ft. fly speed to recover a 30 ft speed, but I am unsure I want to spend another 1000 gp nor reduce its ground speed to 0 to compensate. I still have the fly spell to handle flight when I need it more seriously than as a brief convenience matter.


Building the Large Animated Object that I'm planning will resolve much of this. As a Large creature, its 22 Strength has its load ratings doubled. Tripled if you consider a rope that winds itself into a carpet-like construction a "quadruped."

The Animated Object will be a bloodvine rope that's long enough to wrap in a 2D spiral out to a 7 ft. radius, which circumscribes a 10 ft. square. It'll serve as a "flying carpet" in this shape, and will, when not serving in that capacity, unwind into a (500ish ft.) rope and serve as a heavy lifter, or as a grapple-monster (which, being a rope, can tie up foes with parts of itself as well).

[Coidzor]

The issue with the Advanced Simple template is that it has no actual impact on the price of an Animated Object, to a crafter. It adds +1 CR, but the Animated Object rules don't care.

Depends on the formula you use. Animated Objects have two different price formulas. (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs)

The first is by CR^2 * 500 gp and the second is Cost of Object + [(HD+CP) * 1,000 gp]. Then divide those by two(except for the cost of the object) for the crafting cost.

So a CR 2 Large Animated Object costs 1,000 gp to make while a CR 3 Large Animated Object costs 2,250 gp.

If you use the other one then I'm not sure how the Construction Flaws interact with making them cheaper or if taking construction flaws actually makes them more expensive.


Building the Large Animated Object that I'm planning will resolve much of this. As a Large creature, its 22 Strength has its load ratings doubled. Tripled if you consider a rope that winds itself into a carpet-like construction a "quadruped."

The Animated Object will be a bloodvine rope that's long enough to wrap in a 2D spiral out to a 7 ft. radius, which circumscribes a 10 ft. square. It'll serve as a "flying carpet" in this shape, and will, when not serving in that capacity, unwind into a (500ish ft.) rope and serve as a heavy lifter, or as a grapple-monster (which, being a rope, can tie up foes with parts of itself as well).

Right. :smallredface: I was briefly wondering myself about how to get Quadruped carrying capacity on it.

Sounds fun!

[Segev]

I think exception-based mechanics mean that the CR method really should only apply to constructs without other rules. It's the general; Animated Object construction rules are the specific.

I suppose you could still USE the CR method: you'd have to take the fixed CP that the various-size Animated Objects get as the total, and if you want more, use -CP flaws. Then the CR is fixed per Animated Object. And that would let you apply +/- CR templates to adjust the price.

Let's do a quick comparison:



Size
HD
CP
CR
HD+CP cost
CR cost


Tiny
1
1
1/2
2,000 gp
250 gp


Small
2
1
2
3,000 gp
2,000 gp


Medium
3
2
3
5,000 gp
4,500 gp


Large
4
3
5
7,000 gp
12,500 gp


Huge
7
4
7
11,000 gp
24,500 gp


Gargantuan
10
5
9
15,000 gp
40,500 gp


Colossal
13
6
11
19,000 gp
60,500 gp



This is, of course, just assuming that you take the recommended number of CP. The "HD+CP" method gives flexibility on that. The CR method does not, but gives flexibility on templates.

Looking at it, I'm thinking that the CR method is way too cheap at the low end and way too expensive at the high end. Add in that the CR method requires a house rule for the CL...I think it's best kept as a (apparently not great) catch-all rather than a valid substitute for a specific one.

Of course, if you do use the CR method, Tiny animated objects are amazingly cheap.

Edit: Below 1 CR, the formula doesn't square CR before multiplying by 500 gp to determine base price. Corrected the Tiny Animated Object CR-based price from 125 gp to 250 gp.

[Coidzor]

Animated Objects
(May be able to use as a method to make an intelligent magic item into a construct with HD instead of making a construct into an intelligent item?)

Flaws give additional CP and can be used to lower CR if those CP are unspent. Slower, Haunted, Flammable, Brittle, Cloth, and Clunky add up to +6 CP for a reduction of CR by 3.

Construction Costs:
CP discounted CR Based Price(Price 1): (CR-3)*(CR-3)*250
Base CR Based Price(Price 2): CR*CR*250
HD+CP with baseline CP spent Based Price(Price 3): (HD+CP)*500

Tiny Animated Object: 1 HD
Price 1: CR 1/6. 41.66 gp construction cost, 42 gp/HD ratio

Price 2: CR 1/2. 125 gp construction cost, 125 gp/HD ratio

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 1,000 gp construction cost, X + 1,000 gp/HD ratio

Base Spellcraft DC: 6

Commentary: Amazing/the best to good gp/HD ratios depending upon version. Also some of the cheapest constructs possible.


Small Animated Object: 2 HD
Price 1: CR 1/3. 166.66 gp construction cost. 83.33 per additional HD.
(84 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 584 gp/HD, 417 at 3 HD)

Price 2: CR 2. 1,000 gp construction cost. 500 per additional HD
(500 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1000 gp/HD, 834 at 3 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 1,500 gp construction cost. 750 per additional HD.
(X/2 + 750 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/3 + 1,250 gp/HD, X/3 + 1,084 at 3 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 7

Commentary: Very good to good gp/HD ratios. Again, some of the cheapest constructs possible.


Medium Animated Object: 3 HD
Price 1: CR 1/2(?). 250 gp construction cost. 83.33 per additional HD.
(84 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 417 gp/HD, 334 at 4 HD)

Price 2: CR 3. 2,250 gp construction cost. 750 per additional HD
(750 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,084 gp/HD, 1,000 at 4 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 2,500 gp construction cost. 833.33 per additional HD
(X/3 + 834 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/3 + 1,167 gp/HD, X/4 + 1,084 at 4 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 8

Commentary: Low HD for its size category, but very good gp/HD ratio when made with lots of drawbacks limiting its combat effectiveness, good gp/HD ratio when made normally.


Large Animated Object: 4 HD
Price 1: CR 2. 1000 gp construction cost. 250 per additional HD
(250 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 500 gp/HD, 417 at 6 HD)

Price 2: CR 5. 6,250 gp construction cost. 1,562.5 per additional HD
(1,563 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,813 gp/HD, 1,730 at 6 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 3,500 gp construction cost. 875 per additional HD
(X/4 + 875 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/4 + 1,125 gp/HD, X/6 + 1,042 at 6 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 9

Commentary: Very low HD for its size category, but still some great to good gp/HD ratios.


Huge Animated Object: 7 HD
Price 1: CR 4. 4,000 gp construction cost. 571.42 per additional HD
(572 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 715 gp/HD, 672 at 10 HD)

Price 2: CR 7. 12,500 gp construction cost. 1,785.71 per additional HD
(1,786 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,929 gp/HD, 1,886 at 10 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 5,500 gp construction cost. 785.71 per additional HD
(X/7 + 786 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/7 + 929 gp/HD, X/10 + 886 at 10 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 12

Commentary: Very low HD for its size category.


Gargantuan Animated Object: 10 HD
Price 1: CR 6. 9,000 gp construction cost. 900 per additional HD
(900 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,000 gp/HD, 967 at 15 HD)

Price 2: CR 9. 20,000 gp construction cost. 2,000 per additional HD
(2,000 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 2,100 gp/HD, 2,067 at 15 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 7,500 gp construction cost. 750 per additional HD
(X/10 + 750 gp/HD ratio,; Intelligent Item: X/10 + 850 gp/HD, X/15 + 817 at 15 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 15

Commentary: Good to average gp/HD ratios, poor HD for its size.


Colossal Animated Object: 13 HD
Price 1: CR 8. 16,000 gp construction cost. 1,230.76 per additional HD
(1,231 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,308 gp/HD, 1,284 at 19 HD)

Price 2: CR 11. 30,000 gp construction cost. 2,307.69 per additional HD
(2,308 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 2,385 gp/HD, 2,361 at 19 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 9,500 gp construction cost. 730.76 per additional HD
(X/13 + 731 gp/HD ratio and cost per additional HD; Intelligent Item: X/13 + 808 gp/HD, X/19 + 784 at 19 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 18

Commentary: Good to Fair gp/HD ratios, poor HD for its size.



Of course, if you do use the CR method, Tiny animated objects are amazingly cheap.

Aye. As far as I can tell, it looks like a 25 gp construction cost to make a Tiny Animate Object that is actually Diminutive at the cheapest.

[unseenmage]

Aye. As far as I can tell, it looks like a 25 gp construction cost to make a Tiny Animate Object that is actually Diminutive at the cheapest.

Which is pretty sweet since Alchemical items can be Animate Object-ed.
Makes animating tech grenades almost affordable.

[Segev]

Of course, there's a slight flaw to the HD+CP system, if you assume CP can be net negative: you can create free animated objects. (Common sense house rule would be "minimum 1000 gp," though I suppose you could instead start treating -1s as x0.5s when you get to any reduction below 1 HD+CP)

[Coidzor]

One thing is that, near as I could figure around Mid-January when I was looking into it, an Animated Object has to be built with the default number of CP assigned to it, even if they aren't used, whether you use the CR-based formula or the HD+CP-based formula.



If you can forego making use of the default CP for a discount on the HD+CP-based formula, that will shift where the balance point between the two different pricing systems is and at what size you should use which formula for which purpose, and that'll become even more notable if the construction flaws decrease the effective CP if no CP are spent to offset them.

Having to keep that much in mind to know which is the better value for money for a given task is a bit of extra busywork, especially since it isn't done for you at present, that's one of the reasons I started making my catalogue.

The other is that I discovered you can make Soulbound Mannequins and give them Master Craftsman and have them make magic items for you and I wanted to see how far down the rabbit hole I could go.


Of course, there's a slight flaw to the HD+CP system, if you assume CP can be net negative: you can create free animated objects. (Common sense house rule would be "minimum 1000 gp," though I suppose you could instead start treating -1s as x0.5s when you get to any reduction below 1 HD+CP)

Yeah, I was left similarly confused when I was trying to consider that before I got resoundingly told that you have to take the base CP for the HD+CP formula.

I remain pretty unconvinced, but I wouldn't want to get too crazy trying to apply it, either, since I'm not really sure where a generally reasonable GM call would be.

[Segev]

Yeah, I was left similarly confused when I was trying to consider that before I got resoundingly told that you have to take the base CP for the HD+CP formula.

I remain pretty unconvinced, but I wouldn't want to get too crazy trying to apply it, either, since I'm not really sure where a generally reasonable GM call would be.

On the one hand, the various sizes do say "this has X CP." But on the other, the construction rules don't say you have to honor that; they just say it's "HD+CP." If they wanted it fixed, it would have been easier to just say "A Large Animated Object has a base price of 7,000 gp." With the formula, if the intent was that CP be fixed-total, a sentence saying so should have been included.

I think the HD+CP rules are overall more sensible, because they don't get stupidly cheap nor do they get laughably expensive, barring the degenerate "0 gp" case (or "-1000s of gp" which makes even less sense).

Now, you could set the limit in one of two ways: Don't let CP be a net negative (so your formula is actually max((HD+CP),HD)); or don't let HP+CP go to zero (so your formula is actually max((HD+CP),1)). I think the latter is better because the CP flaws are actually pretty biting and legitimately reduce the utility of the construct to the owner.

[unseenmage]

My GM and resident rules guru had advuce on effectively free Animated Object abilities and Necrocrafts since they use the same flawed subsystem.

It's over in my necromancy thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21675394&postcount=5). (link is to post in question)

[Segev]

That seems like reasonable advice.

One more thing occurs to me: we have a one-way link of CP to CR in the animated object construction rules. In the section on CP-granting flaws, it says that for every net -2 CP, the animated object's CR should be reduced by 1.

From this, we could extrapolate that a +/- CR template can be translated to +/- 2 CP per +/- 1 CR.

So the Simple Advanced Template would be worth +2 CP. Remarkably cheap compared to the base construct rules for adding just +2 Str, but ... not ENTIRELY unreasonable. (+2 CP = +2000 gp base price for, amongst other things, +4 to all stats; while it's 5,000 gp per +2 to a single stat in the generic rules!)

Overall, I think the generic rules are too swingy.

Also, noticed an error in my table. Constructs with CR below 1 don't square the CR before multiplying by 500 gp. I'll update it.

[Coidzor]

IIRC the CR also goes up if you raise the CP above the base value for an Animated Object, but I'm on mobile right now.

Might be confusing Animated Objects and Necrocrafts.

[Segev]

IIRC the CR also goes up if you raise the CP above the base value for an Animated Object, but I'm on mobile right now.

Might be confusing Animated Objects and Necrocrafts.

You're absolutely right. I just checked.

So yeah, I'd argue that +1 CR templates probably = +2 CP. As long as you don't get too ridiculous, you can probably sell it to a DM. CERTAINLY, you could probably get some portion of a +1 CR template. Like, say, +4 Str. (I can definitely respect a DM saying the Simple Advanced Template doesn't add 4 to Wis and Cha of a mindless construct. Though I suppose that only really increases their Perception and Will saves. Or makes that animated lute a little better.)



Also, regarding getting a Medium Animated Suit to carry its wearer in flight, there is the spell ant haul (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/a/ant-haul?overridemobile=true). It trebles the weight in each load category for the target, and lasts 2 hours per CL.

[unseenmage]

To my knowledge one can still ignore the listed CL of any Magic Item or Construct unless that CL is specifically called out as being a prerequisite. Even then it can be skipped by increasing the DC to make the thing.

It's because of how the CLs are listed IIRC, they're listed with the other prerequisites that are given as examples of being ignorable. IIRC it's just a couple of Golems that have CL requirements described in another fashion.

From what I've seen in PF HD is almost always higher than CR for Constructs, and even then it doesn't matter since they only get bonus hp based on size.
Turns out my information was houserule info. Our GM decided tom ignore that line about needing to meet Construct CLs because it is only printed once and, to them, reeks of 3.x copypasta since it doesn't match any of the other Magic Item Crafting rules.

Apparently that's why we've been ignoring it. My apologies. Guess I've been losing Construct info with all the Undead info I've been absorbing lately.

[Segev]

Turns out my information was houserule info. Our GM decided tom ignore that line about needing to meet Construct CLs because it is only printed once and, to them, reeks of 3.x copypasta since it doesn't match any of the other Magic Item Crafting rules.

Apparently that's why we've been ignoring it. My apologies. Guess I've been losing Construct info with all the Undead info I've been absorbing lately.

No problem. It happens. There are tons and tons of rules, and that is a little fiddly bit.

And, to be fair, do you REALLY want to allow a 5th level caster to make an Iron Golem? I mean, yes, it'd cost, but...

[Coidzor]

Turns out my information was houserule info. Our GM decided tom ignore that line about needing to meet Construct CLs because it is only printed once and, to them, reeks of 3.x copypasta since it doesn't match any of the other Magic Item Crafting rules.

Apparently that's why we've been ignoring it. My apologies. Guess I've been losing Construct info with all the Undead info I've been absorbing lately.

It does seem very awkward, weird, and poorly done as to when which constructs come online, aye.

I guess that's why Waxwork Creatures were made, to throw a bone on that front.

[Segev]

It does seem very awkward, weird, and poorly done as to when which constructs come online, aye.

I guess that's why Waxwork Creatures were made, to throw a bone on that front.

Quite possibly. It IS awkward for a CL5 feat when the minimum CL for most of the options is well above that, and it's the only feat that has that clause.

If that clause wasn't there, you'd still need to get the materials somehow, and WBL only goes so far at ECL 5. Maybe you could talk a kingdom into funding your building of a golem for them...but they'd have to trust you a LOT (or be ignorant of the fact that you retain mastery of your creation even if you tell it to obey them).

[unseenmage]

Quite possibly. It IS awkward for a CL5 feat when the minimum CL for most of the options is well above that, and it's the only feat that has that clause.

If that clause wasn't there, you'd still need to get the materials somehow, and WBL only goes so far at ECL 5. Maybe you could talk a kingdom into funding your building of a golem for them...but they'd have to trust you a LOT (or be ignorant of the fact that you retain mastery of your creation even if you tell it to obey them).

To be fair PF also has a lot more options for usurping Construct control than 3.x did, though 3.x's were more stable and straightforward. Rod of Construct Control (AaEG) and Warforged Domain respectively.

IIRC PF's versions are largely spells though so they're more, hmm, accessible I guess.

[Coidzor]

The DC to craft a construct is 5 + the default caster level of the construct, just like for a magic item. Like when crafting magic items, a creator with a sufficiently high skill bonus may ignore these requirements. Each missing requirement increases the Craft DC by 5. Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements.

A thought occurred to me. It may be that the listed default caster level that exists largely for assigning the Spellcraft DC is separate from "minimum caster level requirements," especially for constructs which don't list a caster level in their requirements, such as Homunculi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus/) or Soulbound Mannequins (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/soulbound-mannequin/).

Whereas, say, a Wax Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-wax/) or a Mask Golem (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-mask), both require CL 9 in their requirements section.

[unseenmage]

I feel dumb asking but are you suggesting an alternative interpretation wherein CLs listed in requirements CAN be skipped but unlisted extrapolated CL requirements cannot?

[Coidzor]

I feel dumb asking but are you suggesting an alternative interpretation wherein CLs listed in requirements CAN be skipped but unlisted extrapolated CL requirements cannot?

I'm suggesting that CLs listed in the construction details but not in the requirements section set the Spellcraft DC but aren't the minimum required CL to make a construct.

So Homunculus has CL 7 and the market price listed and then lists out the requirements. The CL sets the Spellcraft DC for construction but isn't called out as a minimum requirement in the entry, so it isn't one.

Whereas a Wax Golem calls out that the caster *must* have a CL of 9 or higher in the requirements section, so there's no way to circumvent that by adding 5 to the Spellcraft DC.

[unseenmage]

Ah. Okay. That does make more sense.

Thank you for explaining.

[Coidzor]

Abrakarn Vipers (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Abrakarn%20Viper), Animated Tanks (www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animated Tank), Broodiken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/broodiken-kp), Soulbound Dolls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/doll-soulbound), Soulbound Mannequins (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/soulbound-mannequin), Soulbound Shells (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/soulbound-shell), Guardian Scrolls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/guardian-scroll), Ioun Wyrds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/ioun-wyrd), Ship in a Bottle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/ship-in-a-bottle) constructs, Skull Rippers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/skull-ripper), Urannags (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/urannag), Guardian Gargoyles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/guardian-gargoyle), and Homunculi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus) are the current list I've got going of constructs that don't have a listed CL requirement or a CL listed in their requirements.

Edit: Set Guardians (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Set%20Guardian) also have no listed minimum CL or CL requirement.

Colossi lack a minimum CL or CL requirement, but instead of Mythic Rank or Tier requirements of 4, 6, 7, or 8.

Emerald Automatons (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Emerald%20Automaton) have a CL 6 requirement.

Edit 2: I'm not sure about how it works when you make a magical version of a Robot, but I believe those don't have anything like Craft: Mechanical rank requirements so they probably don't have minimum CL requirements when made as magical constructs instead of technological monstrosities.

Seems that Waxwork Creatures and Trompe L'oeils don't have a CL requirement listed, just that the CL for the spellcraft DC scales with the HD.

Taxidermic creatures don't seem to list construction information for them, leaving it to the individual group to use the Building and Modifying Constructs rules to determine the construction cost from the CR(?).

[Segev]

I suspect that the discrepancy between constructs with CLs listed under "construction" but not in "requirements" and those which have it listed in both places is accidental, a case of sloppy writing/editing by Paizo, but it is an interesting distinction to call out. It is even defensible as a RAW distinction that makes the rule that says you can't ignore the CL requirement still have teeth while removing some of their bite.

[unseenmage]

I'm not sure about how it works when you make a magical version of a Robot, but I believe those don't have anything like Craft: Mechanical rank requirements so they probably don't have minimum CL requirements when made as magical constructs instead of technological monstrosities.

I'm going to look through the templates' wording later on.
Robots require technological Laboratories, even with the alternative Constructs by CR rules. Sadly tech labs are a tech artifact. There is a loophole, but it's cheesey. Requires creating a theoretical Simulacrum of an Animated Object of a Technological Laboratory. One supposes a Trompe L'oeil/Alter Ego of an Awakened Animated Object Technological Artifact could do as well.

The danger here is that there are other tech artifacts are wholly inappropriate for any level of play. There's the stardrive for the main plotship, there's a mass extinction device, etc.

So yeah, just get your GM to waive the Tech Artifact status of the various technological laboratories instead. Will be much easier on everyone in the long run. Full disclosure, my GM left the Gravitic and Nanite labs on the artifact list so we'd have something to quest for at later levels though.

Edit: Another thing to note, the Robot Subtype reads like a template. Which our table took to mean we could apply it as such. Only to non-robot Constructs of course. Also, though you can turn a clockwork into a robot and vice versa a single Construct isn't allowed to have both subtypes at once.

[Coidzor]

Robots require technological Laboratories, even with the alternative Constructs by CR rules. Sadly tech labs are a tech artifact. There is a loophole, but it's cheesey. Requires creating a theoretical Simulacrum of an Animated Object of a Technological Laboratory. One supposes a Trompe L'oeil/Alter Ego of an Awakened Animated Object Technological Artifact could do as well.

The danger here is that there are other tech artifacts are wholly inappropriate for any level of play. There's the stardrive for the main plotship, there's a mass extinction device, etc.

So yeah, just get your GM to waive the Tech Artifact status of the various technological laboratories instead. Will be much easier on everyone in the long run. Full disclosure, my GM left the Gravitic and Nanite labs on the artifact list so we'd have something to quest for at later levels though.

Edit: Another thing to note, the Robot Subtype reads like a template. Which our table took to mean we could apply it as such. Only to non-robot Constructs of course. Also, though you can turn a clockwork into a robot and vice versa a single Construct isn't allowed to have both subtypes at once.

Indeed, but I don't believe you need a Technological Laboratory if you're making a non-Robot version of a Robot, you're just making it as a magical construct instead of a technological one.

So you have three main classes of construct, Robot, Clockwork, and neither/miscellaneous.

I'm pretty sure I actually read somewhere about making Robot versions of non-Robot constructs when I was trawling through the PFSRD and Archive of Nethys learning about constructs initially, much like how you can make a Clockwork version of a miscellaneous construct in exchange for multiplying the cost and time to create it by 1.5x and also making it so that souls, demons, or elemental spirits aren't needed to actually make it.

I'd only actually looked at making Robot versions of Taxidermic creatures, though, given the limitations on being able to make them. Being able to make a Terraformer Robot as a non-Robot construct has some appeal to it, though, especially if one wants to make a moon base.

[unseenmage]

Indeed, but I don't believe you need a Technological Laboratory if you're making a non-Robot version of a Robot, you're just making it as a magical construct instead of a technological one.

So you have three main classes of construct, Robot, Clockwork, and neither/miscellaneous.

I'm pretty sure I actually read somewhere about making Robot versions of non-Robot constructs when I was trawling through the PFSRD and Archive of Nethys learning about constructs initially, much like how you can make a Clockwork version of a miscellaneous construct in exchange for multiplying the cost and time to create it by 1.5x and also making it so that souls, demons, or elemental spirits aren't needed to actually make it.

I'd only actually looked at making Robot versions of Taxidermic creatures, though, given the limitations on being able to make them. Being able to make a Terraformer Robot as a non-Robot construct has some appeal to it, though, especially if one wants to make a moon base.

Which to me begs the question, if we reverse engineer non-robot robots, do our now magical versions of robotic constructs loose the Int scores that all robots posess? Even if they do not loose the integrated weaponry (integrating weapons into constructs is doable without the subtype) do they lo0ose the power source for said weaponry and now have to rely on batteries?

I ask mainly because in pulling the demon type off of Frostfallen and Mummy Nabasu Demons we noticed that they lose all three of their languages as those languages were part of their subtype.
Things get real messy, and messy is where GM adjudication comes in. And that's a pain since we either find precedent (without cherry picking) or wrestle compromise (again while trying not to cherry pick). Ugh, sorry. Just irritated that PF copy pasted some of the worst things from 3.x while trying to reinvent the wheel with basic stuff like what does or doesn't qualify as a Special Quality. What's worse is it looks more like the reinvention was an omission rather than some intentional thing. And when pressed about it the devs repeat the same old mantra that everything they do is on purpose with intent and we just don't understand their vision. Ugh.

[Coidzor]

Which to me begs the question, if we reverse engineer non-robot robots, do our now magical versions of robotic constructs loose the Int scores that all robots posess? Even if they do not loose the integrated weaponry (integrating weapons into constructs is doable without the subtype) do they lo0ose the power source for said weaponry and now have to rely on batteries?

Yep. Every time I raised the question elsewhere, the answer was that Robots go mindless when made as regular old constructs, but no one cited any of the designers, and I'm loathe to dig up my account and post on the Paizo boards, since it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd actually even respond to, and instead just the kind of thing that people on the Paizo boards would heap verbal abuse on you for daring to ask.


I suspect that the discrepancy between constructs with CLs listed under "construction" but not in "requirements" and those which have it listed in both places is accidental, a case of sloppy writing/editing by Paizo, but it is an interesting distinction to call out. It is even defensible as a RAW distinction that makes the rule that says you can't ignore the CL requirement still have teeth while removing some of their bite.

Blood Golems (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-blood/) are another interesting discrepancy. They list their CL as 7, but the requirement is listed as CL 12.

[Segev]

Yep. Every time I raised the question elsewhere, the answer was that Robots go mindless when made as regular old constructs, but no one cited any of the designers, and I'm loathe to dig up my account and post on the Paizo boards, since it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd actually even respond to, and instead just the kind of thing that people on the Paizo boards would heap verbal abuse on you for daring to ask.Why would they heap abuse for asking? I assume there's a zeitgeist or culture there that has some underlying trend that motivates such things. What taboo or whatever would asking such a question violate to trigger such a response?


Blood Golems (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-blood/) are another interesting discrepancy. They list their CL as 7, but the requirement is listed as CL 12.That is both interesting and odd. If you assume it's intentional, it suggests they wanted an easy-to-make golem for 12th level casters. If you assume it's a typo, no real conclusions can be drawn - not even what the "right" CL is. (Maybe comparing to its CR?)

[unseenmage]

Yep. Every time I raised the question elsewhere, the answer was that Robots go mindless when made as regular old constructs, but no one cited any of the designers, and I'm loathe to dig up my account and post on the Paizo boards, since it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd actually even respond to, and instead just the kind of thing that people on the Paizo boards would heap verbal abuse on you for daring to ask.
My only beef with the Paizo boards is the slowness. I get such much more prompt and thorough duscussion here. I rately need outsource for my queries.

And though I've never felt the lash of famboyism from their boards I have read many an instance of their devs denying any mistake and insisting, oft in the face of contrary evidence, that their mistakes were in point of fact not so.



Blood Golems (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-blood/) are another interesting discrepancy. They list their CL as 7, but the requirement is listed as CL 12.
Can't one create Magic Items at a lower CL intentionally? Or is that another 3.X-ism floating up from the depths of memory?

[Coidzor]

Even if you take the CL listed in the construction details as a requirement, Ioun Wyrds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/ioun-wyrd/) have a CL 5 listed, so they'd also be available to 5th level casters regardless.

They're not mindless, so, that's something. Much more useful as familiars, admittedly.

Similarly, Broodiken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/broodiken-kp/) are apparently Tiny, balloon-headed, goblin-like thingies that have a CL of 5. They're dumb, but also not mindless, so there's *something* that can be done with them, I'm just still not sure what.

Creating them is... confusing, though.

In some ways, I think that they expected most construct crafters to grab it around 7th level. That's when the first golems start opening up, anyway.

CL 7 things.

Blood Golem: CL 7, but CL 12 requirement. 8 HD

Carrion Golem: CL 7 requirement, 4 HD
Junk Golem: CL 7 requirement, 4 HD
Graven Guardian: CL 7 requirement, 6 HD

Cutlass Spider: Crafter's Gamble version: Has both a CL 7 requirement and a requirement for the caster to be 7th level. Has a permanent berserk chance risk, though, and can be taken over by an Intelligent Magic Item. 8 HD

Waxwork Vulpinal Agathion: CL 7, 7 HD, high-ish HD for a Small creature.
Trompe L'oeil Lillend Azata: CL 7, 7 HD, casts as a 7th level Bard, even if it isn't high HD for its size.

Homunculus: CL 7, 2 HD



Edit:


Can't one create Magic Items at a lower CL intentionally? Or is that another 3.X-ism floating up from the depths of memory?

I honestly don't know what the final CL of magic items made by PCs would even be. Unless it's a magic item that actually casts a spell like a command word item, spell-completion, or spell-trigger item. Or certain Continuous items where the CL determines the effects of the spell rather than just duration.

You can make a wand at any CL as long as that CL is high enough to cast that spell, for instance.

You can make a magical cloak that has a CL of 20 for its listed CL, even if one's own CL is only 5, so long as you can make the Spellcraft check to make it.


Why would they heap abuse for asking? I assume there's a zeitgeist or culture there that has some underlying trend that motivates such things. What taboo or whatever would asking such a question violate to trigger such a response?

That is both interesting and odd. If you assume it's intentional, it suggests they wanted an easy-to-make golem for 12th level casters. If you assume it's a typo, no real conclusions can be drawn - not even what the "right" CL is. (Maybe comparing to its CR?)

Google searching and lurking on those boards, I've seen a lot of threads where they're very mercurial about asking questions. Sometimes everyone is curious and other times it just leads to a big fight for no apparent reason. It's probably an overreaction on my part, but I'm very uncomfortable with their apparent culture and how I can't really figure out their taboos that well.

I didn't think to compare it to the CR. ...I can't actually even remember the CR and I was just looking it over. Kinda went on autopilot there.

[Segev]

The CR is 6, so a CL of 7 seems quite reasonable, unless you assume that half the level of the master is the appropriate place for a servitor that costs as much as a blood golem does.


As to ioun weirds, I saw them before, myself, but was baffled what made them worthwhile as familiars. Let alone improved familiars. They can incorporate a number of slotless items, effectively making them limited by slot. These slotless items tend to be amongst the most expensive items for their abilities out there. And if you spend a feat (Improved Familiar), you can get this creature to let you benefit from the powers of its incorporated items. Which you could do anyway if you just used the ioun stones you give to it for yourself.

What's the point? Why spend a feat on this, maybe more (if you're making it yourself)? To what use can it really be put that isn't better done without it?

[Jack_Simth]

The CR is 6, so a CL of 7 seems quite reasonable, unless you assume that half the level of the master is the appropriate place for a servitor that costs as much as a blood golem does.


As to ioun weirds, I saw them before, myself, but was baffled what made them worthwhile as familiars. Let alone improved familiars. They can incorporate a number of slotless items, effectively making them limited by slot. These slotless items tend to be amongst the most expensive items for their abilities out there. And if you spend a feat (Improved Familiar), you can get this creature to let you benefit from the powers of its incorporated items. Which you could do anyway if you just used the ioun stones you give to it for yourself.

What's the point? Why spend a feat on this, maybe more (if you're making it yourself)? To what use can it really be put that isn't better done without it?

Because you don't want to fast to implant the stones in yourself, but it's cheaper to guard a creature than it is a number of orbiting stones?

[Coidzor]

The CR is 6, so a CL of 7 seems quite reasonable, unless you assume that half the level of the master is the appropriate place for a servitor that costs as much as a blood golem does.


As to ioun weirds, I saw them before, myself, but was baffled what made them worthwhile as familiars. Let alone improved familiars. They can incorporate a number of slotless items, effectively making them limited by slot. These slotless items tend to be amongst the most expensive items for their abilities out there. And if you spend a feat (Improved Familiar), you can get this creature to let you benefit from the powers of its incorporated items. Which you could do anyway if you just used the ioun stones you give to it for yourself.

What's the point? Why spend a feat on this, maybe more (if you're making it yourself)? To what use can it really be put that isn't better done without it?

Well, if you have to wait until level 7 to make Homunculi, then if you want a tiny construct pet, the choice is either an Ioun Wyrd or trying to figure out how to make a Broodiken or hunting down a Broodiken, killing it, eating its heart, and then being pregnant and eating magic mud for a month before popping out a variable number of them. Ignoring Trompe L'oeil or making a mindless animated object or waxwork creature into an intelligent magic item.

Ultimately, though, they seem pointless unless one wants a lot of ioun stones without being able to feasibly implant them into one's self.

[unseenmage]

Not sure exactly how useful it is here but my group has had great fun with the 3rd party Amalgam ([QUOTE=Coidzor;21720059]) and Monstrous Lycanthrope (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/monstrous-lycanthrope-cr-special/) templates.

More Amalgam though. We just use a flat higher of the two CRs +3 adjustment unless the monsters stats are too outrageous. Then we recalculate as usual.

What's fun is that any creature Amalgam-ed with a Construct makes a resultant Construct. So long as one of the creatures is minless the Amalgam can be too. Which means Tattoo Guardian plus anythig equals a wearable, potentially mindless, and thus imminently commandable, anything.

Is super complex but it opens up a lot of options if you can get it allowed. That its balancing factor is the whole of the monster creation rules helps too.

Monstrous Lycanthrope however, is borked. One needs to toss its lack of balancing elements and just use its idea that anything can be a were anything else.
Even then its a hassle, the CRs are too high, and lycanthropic golems are a hard pill to swallow for many.

My apologies that neither of these is the lowest level fun. But we did have a blast with them so I figured they were worth a mention since I've actually gotten to play with them in a real live game.

[Coidzor]

Taxidermic Creature might be of interest, depending upon how the CL works out, but probably gets edged out by Waxwork Creature for cost, but it is CR based vs. HD based pricing, so there's probably a balance or tipping point.

I'd say the two most likely CLs are to base it on the HD or CR.

Edit: Akaruzugs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/akaruzug)are another oddity, but according to Archive of Nethys, they're unupdated 3.5 content (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Akaruzug). They have no listed minimum CL, but do require the spellcaster to be at least level 15.

Edit 2: Tribal Totems and their Greater Version are another example to take note of. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tribal%20Totem) Their listed CL is 8, but the CL requirement is 11. The Greater version has a listed CL of 9 but the requirement is CL 13.

[Segev]

Tribal totems are...weird. Expensive, but at the same time, their array of magical abilities are impressive. And nasty.

I'm trying to decide if there's a benefit to waxwork creatures over trompe l'oeil versions, and the best I'm coming up with is that waxworks don't require intelligent antecedents. I'm actually quite amused by a trompe l'oeil of a mimic. It's intelligent, so it can be done, but now you have a thing that can enter a painting as any sort of furniture you'd like.

[unseenmage]

Tribal totems are...weird. Expensive, but at the same time, their array of magical abilities are impressive. And nasty.

I'm trying to decide if there's a benefit to waxwork creatures over trompe l'oeil versions, and the best I'm coming up with is that waxworks don't require intelligent antecedents. I'm actually quite amused by a trompe l'oeil of a mimic. It's intelligent, so it can be done, but now you have a thing that can enter a painting as any sort of furniture you'd like.

Artificial Mimics have been amusimg me.for a while.

Doppelgangers are neat too as they can become any historical figure.

Both as Trompe L'oeil and they can haul around some extradimensional storage containing various paintings, Marvelous Pigments, etc.

Heck, with Marvelous Pigments an appropriately skilled Trompe L'oeil could even make paintings to hide in or paintings of useful.stuff almost on demand.

[Segev]

Artificial Mimics have been amusimg me.for a while.Is there a thread discussing this, or would you like to make one? It sounds interesting, though unless it stays related to constructs I fear it goes beyond the scope of this thread. (I mean, I'd be happy to take this thread that direction, but then people who might be interested in the topic but not constructs might not see it.)


Doppelgangers are neat too as they can become any historical figure. Also a good point. Though you'd have to be careful to paint the original in its native form, lest it accidentally be a trompe l'oeil of whoever it's imitating.


Both as Trompe L'oeil and they can haul around some extradimensional storage containing various paintings, Marvelous Pigments, etc. Please elaborate on this! I'm not sure I follow, but it's intriguing in what it suggests


Heck, with Marvelous Pigments an appropriately skilled Trompe L'oeil could even make paintings to hide in or paintings of useful.stuff almost on demand.
I thought Marvelous Pigments only made things. What about them allows faster painting-creation? In part, I am interested because this might allow for faster creation of the base painting for a trompe l'oeil, itself.

[Coidzor]

Well, I suppose a framed painting is technically an object? :smallconfused:


Tribal totems are...weird. Expensive, but at the same time, their array of magical abilities are impressive. And nasty.

I'm trying to decide if there's a benefit to waxwork creatures over trompe l'oeil versions, and the best I'm coming up with is that waxworks don't require intelligent antecedents. I'm actually quite amused by a trompe l'oeil of a mimic. It's intelligent, so it can be done, but now you have a thing that can enter a painting as any sort of furniture you'd like.

Aye. They're neat. I'm not sure if it's just the trawling I've been doing, but it almost seems like there are more weird constructs than non-weird ones, on the whole.

That Mimic idea is solid gold. Thank you. :smallamused:

[Segev]

Well, I suppose a framed painting is technically an object? :smallconfused:True... and the pigments can create anything up to 2000 gp in value. So, say, 4 500-gp paintings. Or 2 1000-gp paintings. Or 1 2000-gp painting.

2 days and 1000 gp to make the Marvelous Pigments. 10 minutes to make 1 Medium painting, 2 Small paintings, or 4 Tiny paintings.

Silly work-around, and goes for half-cost rather than 1/3-cost (the way mundane crafts would), but...charming. And significantly faster than actually painting them normally. Ironically, since in theory, you're painting with the Marvelous Pigments has to be as realistic as the final product, which is a trompe l'oeil and thus hyper-realistic.




Aye. They're neat. I'm not sure if it's just the trawling I've been doing, but it almost seems like there are more weird constructs than non-weird ones, on the whole.Likely in part because they don't stand out much from the generic "animated object" if they aren't. I mean, even a stone golem and an animated stone statue are pretty darned similar if you consider only materials and appearance.


That Mimic idea is solid gold. Thank you. :smallamused:And the mimic can even appear to be a solid gold object, if it wants (or you want it to)!

You're quite welcome; glad to be contributing useful ideas rather than just getting them from this thread. :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Oh, wait. Marvelous Pigments are 4000 gp market value, and can only make up to 2000 gp of stuff. So the crafting cost is BREAKING EVEN on making the stuff. That's...pricey. You're paying double-market-value for the flexibility to decide what mundane items you need NOW. And you can't even paint voids. No pits, doors, windows, etc. Which would make it more worthwhile. (Well, not unless they're in the objects being made from nothing.)


(It took me forever to realize that the Robe of Many Objects' windows and doors could be inserted into existing walls and used to penetrate them.)

[unseenmage]

My apologies for not responding more promptly. Busy day has been busy.


Is there a thread discussing this, or would you like to make one? It sounds interesting, though unless it stays related to constructs I fear it goes beyond the scope of this thread. (I mean, I'd be happy to take this thread that direction, but then people who might be interested in the topic but not constructs might not see it.)
Clockwork Mimic thread I started a while back. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?513970-PF-How-to-Build-a-Clockwork-Mimic-Doppelganger) The Clockwork Mimic statblock contained therein (towards the end) is a rough draft so to speak. Edit: D'oh! Nevermind i dropped that Clockwork Mimic rough draft in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511154-What-is-a-Mimic-s-true-form-How-do-they-reproduce&p=21573583&viewfull=1#post21573583)

I kinda want to play a Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego of a Doppelganger who has a pet Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego Mimic pet/Cohort. Maybe even a character who wears/uses nothing but Mimic equipment and lives in an enlarged mimic house.



Also a good point. Though you'd have to be careful to paint the original in its native form, lest it accidentally be a trompe l'oeil of whoever it's imitating.
I was thinking that the Doppelganger would be created as a Trompe L'oeil depicted in its native form. Then it can occupy paintings in nobles houses or castles etc and look like historical figures. Could run an adventure with a Trompe L'oeil Doppelganger "haunting" somewhere in the guise of some ancient lord.


Please elaborate on this! I'm not sure I follow, but it's intriguing in what it suggests
Since Trompe L'oeil can hide in any painting then carrying around paintings to hide in seems reasonable. And since cave wall mural style painting is included the Trompe L'oeil could even paint its own hiding places as it goes, time willing of course.
Shrink Item on some large boulders with murals painted on them or Fabricate to make paintings to hide in on the fly would seem like good ideas.



I thought Marvelous Pigments only made things. What about them allows faster painting-creation? In part, I am interested because this might allow for faster creation of the base painting for a trompe l'oeil, itself.
Marvelous Pigments would just be for the utility. The real gain would be in making mundane paintings of mundane objects that the Trompe L'oeil could then retrieve from the painting and use as though it were a real object.
The Trompe L'oeil's ability to retrieve and use objects depicted in paintings means one could, theoretically, make a painting of a bunch of mundane items with the M. Pigments, then the Trompe L'oeil can retrieve and use said items as if they were real.
Edit: I was wrong. Would be a cool ability to add to them though as a GM. Not sure what the CR bump would be though.

[Jack_Simth]

Marvelous Pigments would just be for the utility. The real gain would be in making mundane paintings of mundane objects that the Trompe L'oeil could then retrieve from the painting and use as though it were a real object.
The Trompe L'oeil's ability to retrieve and use objects depicted in paintings means one could, theoretically, make a painting of a bunch of mundane items with the M. Pigments, then the Trompe L'oeil can retrieve and use said items as if they were real.
Umm... where are you getting that a Trompe L'oeil can pull effectively real things out of 'normal' paintings? I see mention that they can manipulate things inside paintings temporarily (the example being picking a flower), but that they revert when the beastie leaves. That'd be a crazy-useful ability if true.

[unseenmage]

Umm... where are you getting that a Trompe L'oeil can pull effectively real things out of 'normal' paintings? I see mention that they can manipulate things inside paintings temporarily (the example being picking a flower), but that they revert when the beastie leaves. That'd be a crazy-useful ability if true.
Huh, my bad. I misremembered an IRL conversation about them. The other conversant was referring to the armor and weeapons a Trompe L'oeil can be depicted with.
My apologies.

On the other hand, it would be really useful. So I suggest using the Combining Magic Items rules to combine the Trompe L'oeil with some Marvelous Pigments. In fact, I'm so doing that with the next Migrus Locker I build. Is gonna be fantastically useful.

[Coidzor]

Likely in part because they don't stand out much from the generic "animated object" if they aren't. I mean, even a stone golem and an animated stone statue are pretty darned similar if you consider only materials and appearance.

Honestly, I suppose for a lot of uses, if Animated Objects were just a bit more customizable in terms of the number of HD you can give them based upon their size, and maybe ability scores too, that'd cover the majority of uses one would have for any kind of generic construct minions.

Or even if HD Modification didn't have that unfortunate cap on the number of HD you can add to a construct or had one that scaled based upon the master's HD.


Huh, my bad. I misremembered an IRL conversation about them. The other conversant was referring to the armor and weeapons a Trompe L'oeil can be depicted with.
My apologies.

On the other hand, it would be really useful. So I suggest using the Combining Magic Items rules to combine the Trompe L'oeil with some Marvelous Pigments. In fact, I'm so doing that with the next Migrus Locker I build. Is gonna be fantastically useful.

So... the Trompe L'oeil can basically use the marvelous pigments once and then is out, or are you applying some formula to make them renewable?

[Jack_Simth]

Huh, my bad. I misremembered an IRL conversation about them. The other conversant was referring to the armor and weeapons a Trompe L'oeil can be depicted with.
My apologies.

On the other hand, it would be really useful. So I suggest using the Combining Magic Items rules to combine the Trompe L'oeil with some Marvelous Pigments. In fact, I'm so doing that with the next Migrus Locker I build. Is gonna be fantastically useful.

So... a Trompe L'oeil that can make 2k in mundane items once (and can never do it again), or are you planning on making some assumptions and upgrade that to "make 2k in objects X/day" or somewhere in between? You're going to need DM cooperation, however you do it... and do keep in mind that 2,000 gp in mundane objects 1/day works out to a full suit of masterwork plate for sale.

Edit: Mind you, if you do not need the items to be permanent, then a Trompe L'oeil of a caster that can do Major Creation (sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner/unchained summoner 4, witch 5; Domain artifice 6; Subdomain flotsam 5; Elemental School metal 5, void 5) will do you. Marvelous Pigments are better, because A) It's always the same skill check, and B) they're real... but for most purposes, the spell will be OK.

Edit 2: Also, of course, "fantastically useful" should also mean "fantastically expensive" based on the "The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth" clause.

[Coidzor]

Turns out Wickerman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/wickerman/)(Wickermen?) are another example of listed CL and CL requirement not syncing up, having CL 14 listed but a CL 12 requirement.


I kinda want to play a Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego of a Doppelganger who has a pet Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego Mimic pet/Cohort. Maybe even a character who wears/uses nothing but Mimic equipment and lives in an enlarged mimic house.


I was thinking that the Doppelganger would be created as a Trompe L'oeil depicted in its native form. Then it can occupy paintings in nobles houses or castles etc and look like historical figures. Could run an adventure with a Trompe L'oeil Doppelganger "haunting" somewhere in the guise of some ancient lord.


Since Trompe L'oeil can hide in any painting then carrying around paintings to hide in seems reasonable. And since cave wall mural style painting is included the Trompe L'oeil could even paint its own hiding places as it goes, time willing of course.
Shrink Item on some large boulders with murals painted on them or Fabricate to make paintings to hide in on the fly would seem like good ideas.

Nice ideas, all around.


True... and the pigments can create anything up to 2000 gp in value. So, say, 4 500-gp paintings. Or 2 1000-gp paintings. Or 1 2000-gp painting.

2 days and 1000 gp to make the Marvelous Pigments. 10 minutes to make 1 Medium painting, 2 Small paintings, or 4 Tiny paintings.

Silly work-around, and goes for half-cost rather than 1/3-cost (the way mundane crafts would), but...charming. And significantly faster than actually painting them normally. Ironically, since in theory, you're painting with the Marvelous Pigments has to be as realistic as the final product, which is a trompe l'oeil and thus hyper-realistic.

Still, it *is* significantly faster, especially if you have a mechanism for generating Magic Capital in sufficient quantity.

[Jack_Simth]

Still, it *is* significantly faster, especially if you have a mechanism for generating Magic Capital in sufficient quantity.About the only time it'll be useful is when you can't cast the actual spells you'd otherwise need. Marvelous Pigments take (by default) 4 days to craft and a 5th level spell. Fabricate is a 5th level spell. Spellcraft lets you make Marvelous Pigments without having the spell, so if you don't have one of:

Fabricate
A suitable pre-existing painting
The Masterwork Transformation spell and an otherwise-suitable non-masterwork painting

... then the Marvelous Pigments make sense. If you do have an item on the list, then the pigments are a wasted step.

[Segev]

Turns out Wickerman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/wickerman/)(Wickermen?) are another example of listed CL and CL requirement not syncing up, having CL 14 listed but a CL 12 requirement.Why do I strongly suspect these are all just typos?


Nice ideas, all around.What amuses me is that a Trompe L'oeil of a wizard with a familiar would come with a "free" Trompe L'oiel of that familiar, since it's a class feature. Or, if an Improved Familiar, a feat-feature. And like a real familiar, one could make further Trompe L'oeils of that familiar who would share their original's tie to the Trompe L'oiel wizard.


Still, it *is* significantly faster, especially if you have a mechanism for generating Magic Capital in sufficient quantity.Faster, yes, but outside of custom items, you're probably better off just buying the things. Especially with the edit I realized, so you're paying full price if you craft the Pigments yourself, and double price if you buy them.

[unseenmage]

So... a Trompe L'oeil that can make 2k in mundane items once (and can never do it again), or are you planning on making some assumptions and upgrade that to "make 2k in objects X/day" or somewhere in between? You're going to need DM cooperation, however you do it... and do keep in mind that 2,000 gp in mundane objects 1/day works out to a full suit of masterwork plate for sale.
Either way is fine. I'm leaning towards the deplete-able version myself for balance reasons.



Turns out Wickerman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/wickerman/)(Wickermen?) are another example of listed CL and CL requirement not syncing up, having CL 14 listed but a CL 12 requirement.
At this point I wonder which is the norm. There are so many which do not conform. Are the exceptions outnumbering their counterpoint?



Nice ideas, all around.
Thank you.

[Jack_Simth]

Why do I strongly suspect these are all just typos?

What amuses me is that a Trompe L'oeil of a wizard with a familiar would come with a "free" Trompe L'oiel of that familiar, since it's a class feature. Or, if an Improved Familiar, a feat-feature. And like a real familiar, one could make further Trompe L'oeils of that familiar who would share their original's tie to the Trompe L'oiel wizard.

Faster, yes, but outside of custom items, you're probably better off just buying the things. Especially with the edit I realized, so you're paying full price if you craft the Pigments yourself, and double price if you buy them.

Yes. But if you craft the pigments yourself, you don't need to wait for a mundane craftsman to make the picture you actually want the hard way. I suppose you could hire a Wizard to Fabricate it... of course, the Wizard needs to have a +10 modifier in the appropriate craft skill. Yes, that can be done with spells and their reasonably native Int (Elite Array 15, +2 Racial, +2 level up makes an Int of 19 before items; cast Fox's Cunning for +4 Enhancement for 23 - a +6 modifier - and then toss Crafter's Fortune on top for a +5 and the Wizard-9 can Take Ten to get the standard DC 20 for a masterwork item)... but when that 2k market picture costs 667 gp materials, 9×10×5 gp for the Fabricate, 9×2×10 gp for Fox's Cunning, and 9x1x10 gp for the Crafter's Fortune... you're shelling out 1387 gp to buy it magically... assuming the Wizard doesn't just charge you the market price for the result, instead. Short of casting Fabricate, there's actually very little that'll save you the coin.

[Segev]

I'll have to look it up to see if it's applicable to constructs, but a Pseudonatural Trompe L'oeil which literally painted itself into existence (Pseudonatural gives it the narrative excuse for that impossibility) could be interesting.

[Segev]

Yes. But if you craft the pigments yourself, you don't need to wait for a mundane craftsman to make the picture you actually want the hard way. I suppose you could hire a Wizard to Fabricate it... of course, the Wizard needs to have a +10 modifier in the appropriate craft skill. Yes, that can be done with spells and their reasonably native Int (Elite Array 15, +2 Racial, +2 level up makes an Int of 19 before items; cast Fox's Cunning for +4 Enhancement for 23 - a +6 modifier - and then toss Crafter's Fortune on top for a +5 and the Wizard-9 can Take Ten to get the standard DC 20 for a masterwork item)... but when that 2k market picture costs 667 gp materials, 9×10×5 gp for the Fabricate, 9×2×10 gp for Fox's Cunning, and 9x1x10 gp for the Crafter's Fortune... you're shelling out 1387 gp to buy it magically... assuming the Wizard doesn't just charge you the market price for the result, instead. Short of casting Fabricate, there's actually very little that'll save you the coin.

Yeah, which is disappointing. Especially since, even when you can cast fabricate, there's something less satisfying about waving your hands and having the painting print itself out than having it genuinely be a work of your own hands. But holy cow, the crafting rules are unforgiving.

[Coidzor]

At this point I wonder which is the norm. There are so many which do not conform. Are the exceptions outnumbering their counterpoint?

Going off of memory I'd say that the majority of golems have Cl requirements = to their item CL.

Clockwork constructs seem to all be CL 7 or CL 12 and have matching CL requirements, too.

Robots have CR-based Craft(Mechanical) DCs, so that's an entirely separate paradigm.

I want to say that the rough majority of miscellaneous constructs with printed requirements and item CLs have CL requirement set equal to their item CL, too, but it's much more variable there than it is for the constructs that belong to a family of constructs.

I haven't gone through and tallied out how many of each type fall into which camp, though, I've been busy adding in the constructs from the Archive of Nethys that I discovered thanks to looking some up there as a result of the PFSRD's site migration issues to my master list focusing on gp/HD ratios that gave rise to this whole shebang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514789-3-5-PC-accessible-Constructs-and-their-GP-HD-and-GP-CR-ratios).

[Jack_Simth]

I'll have to look it up to see if it's applicable to constructs, but a Pseudonatural Trompe L'oeil which literally painted itself into existence (Pseudonatural gives it the narrative excuse for that impossibility) could be interesting.
Does Pseudonatural have an official conversion?

Also, of course, as long as you keep an Int score, you can apply Trope L'oeil to a Pseudonatural creature and get very close to the same result.


Yeah, which is disappointing. Especially since, even when you can cast fabricate, there's something less satisfying about waving your hands and having the painting print itself out than having it genuinely be a work of your own hands. But holy cow, the crafting rules are unforgiving.
Well... the game wasn't called Accountants & Attorneys before the Pathfinder conversion. The rules are kinda intended to make it make sense (ish) for people to go smashing in doors and killing monsters to get stuff done.

[Segev]

Does Pseudonatural have an official conversion?No clue. There's something vaguely appropriate it not being so, if not.


Also, of course, as long as you keep an Int score, you can apply Trope L'oeil to a Pseudonatural creature and get very close to the same result.Certainly. The end result would be the same. The story just would be different.


Well... the game wasn't called Accountants & Attorneys before the Pathfinder conversion. The rules are kinda intended to make it make sense (ish) for people to go smashing in doors and killing monsters to get stuff done.
Oh, I know. Fabricate is quite functional, and I'll probably make ample use of it when it comes online for me.

[Segev]

I find myself uncertain about how attack codes are written in PF. I come to this via examination of the benefits of hydrae as waxwork creatures. In 3.5, a hydra makes a pretty impressive zombie, because its "attack" line is an attack with all of its heads. This means it doesn't need a full attack to get all of its attacks. But in examining the hydra in PF, I realized that there are no "full attack" lines and that the hydra now has the Pounce special quality (which a waxwork version would lose).

What are the base rules for how many attacks monsters can use in a standard action? Are hydrae good waxwork creatures?

I think the loss of fast healing doesn't hurt much when they have the waxwork regeneration to compensate. Their "hydra heads" special quality remains, since adding 2 new heads when one is lost is a definite improvement to their melee attacks. "Hydra traits" is questionable, because while it does contain the rules that make heads individually targetable for removal, that by itself isn't an improvement to the melee attacks until linked to "hydra heads." I'd probably house-rule it in place just because it's otherwise a lot harder to beat down a waxwork hydra, but...not sure if it's RAW that you could cut off a waxwork hydra's heads.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, figuring out what does and what doesnt constitute a special quality in PF has proven an excercise in futility.

They moved special abilities around the statblock "intuitively" completely dumping the idea of codified special abilities as 3.x had them.
Which for running a game is fine. Some things are easier to find. Great. Good for them.

Right up until templates need applied and you find that they copy pasted 3.x special ability inheritance but didnt bother defining which special abilities were which.
They leave that task to the individual GM to sort out which is, IMHO, kind of a **** move as the GM already has enough on their plate.

I have a short list of what special abilities are called out as special qualities and a poorly sourced answer from the RAW Q&A thread which advises me to start a new thread about the issue.
Am on the fence about doing so because the general tone has been that to criticize PF devs is tatamount to sacrilege and how dare I and why don't I just go play 3.x if I like it so much.

My apologies for the rant. Just frustrated. I LIKE PF, and even fir its glaring flaws I feel like it HAS been an improvement over 3.x in a lot if ways.

There are just some spots where PF RAW needed some more of the precision that 3.x RAW already had. Seems nonsensical and arbitrary to me that MY favorite bits of the game got under-copy-pasted. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

I definitely sympathize with your rant.

I'm posting here again because all of a sudden it seems like the animated object rules on the SRD no longer have the HD+CP calculation, and are only running on the CR. Did they remove the alternate rules? Or am I just failing miserably at searching?

[Coidzor]

On mobile, but they seem to lack the haunting of harrowstone alternate price tag, aye.

As for waxwork hydras, I'd say heads can be severed, but can be reattached by holding them to the stump.

Decapitation shouldn't really kill them, tho, but being disarmed like that certainly helps.

[Segev]

On mobile, but they seem to lack the haunting of harrowstone alternate price tag, aye.Weird. Maybe it didn't survive the transition from the old host site.


As for waxwork hydras, I'd say heads can be severed, but can be reattached by holding them to the stump.

Decapitation shouldn't really kill them, tho, but being disarmed like that certainly helps.

Well, given that "hydra heads" definitely improves their melee attacks, the waxwork unquestionably retains it, so holding the head on the stump may be foolish; you want to just wait 1d4 rounds and grow a new pair of heads.

Decapitation kills neither constructs nor hydras, so yeah, cutting off the heads won't kill them.

[Coidzor]

Weird. Maybe it didn't survive the transition from the old host site.



Well, given that "hydra heads" definitely improves their melee attacks, the waxwork unquestionably retains it, so holding the head on the stump may be foolish; you want to just wait 1d4 rounds and grow a new pair of heads.

Decapitation kills neither constructs nor hydras, so yeah, cutting off the heads won't kill them.

Hmm. In that case, you never need to buy wax again for further waxwork creatures. Nice.

[Segev]

Hmm. In that case, you never need to buy wax again for further waxwork creatures. Nice.

Hah! I hadn't thought of that!

Though waxen regeneration kind-of does that already, since you could just scrape wax off and let it regen. Though if you're relying on RAW, you may die by the RAW in this case, too: no telling how much wax you get per "shaving."

Edit: Actually, since regeneration specifies that it regrows lost limbs, you could cut off a waxwork human's arms and legs and wait for those to regrow, just thanks to waxen regeneration. Even without having a waxwork hydra, any waxwork creature can give you infinite wax, assuming the lopped off waxen limbs don't melt/evaporate away.

[Segev]

So, two more silly thoughts. The thread on water element creatures in cages made me realize you can make waxwork air elementals. I figure they look like the minis for the things.

You can also make trompe l'oeils of inherently invisible things, like Unseen Stalkers. That's a very expensive still life painted around a figure that's simply not there!

[Jack_Simth]

Edit: Actually, since regeneration specifies that it regrows lost limbs, you could cut off a waxwork human's arms and legs and wait for those to regrow, just thanks to waxen regeneration. Even without having a waxwork hydra, any waxwork creature can give you infinite wax, assuming the lopped off waxen limbs don't melt/evaporate away.
Per the Universal Monster Rules: Regeneration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Regeneration_Ex): "Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally."

"normally" for a chunk of wax... isn't much decay. So... theoretically.

[unseenmage]

So, two more silly thoughts. The thread on water element creatures in cages made me realize you can make waxwork air elementals. I figure they look like the minis for the things.

You can also make trompe l'oeils of inherently invisible things, like Unseen Stalkers. That's a very expensive still life painted around a figure that's simply not there!

There's also the Alchemically Invisible (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/alchemically-invisible-cr-2?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F) template too.


I had an idea about Clockwork versions of oozes. Wireframe gears and ricepaper gear molds filled with alchemical gelatin.
Conical gears and such other whatnot means just about any shape is possible.

I imagine other amorphous Constructs as permutations on this design now by default.

[Segev]

Other than aesthetics, what advantages do clockwork constructs offer over their regular counterparts? I didn't see anything stand-out in the template.



Had quite another thought on a use for a Trompe L'oeil. Take your spellbook. Enchant it as an intelligent item (making it an animated object is optional). It is now a creature with an intelligence score. Make a Trompe L'oeil of your (intelligent construct) spellbook. Now, even if your spellbook is destroyed, you have a backup copy, and it will reform in the painting you keep in a safe location. You'll still have to keep the darned thing updated, of course.

It makes it easier to store them, though. The ability to enter image means that all you need is the crudest of inexpensive paint-works on a surface to make it into "a painting" that the spellbook can enter. Buy some tarot cards for it to lurk in. Do the same with all your spellbooks, if you like. Store whole libraries this way. Heck, your Trompe L'oeil canvass for them might be a large mural of bookshelves. You could even fake up a tablet reader by having a bunch of Trompe L'oeil books enter a single reasonably-sized painting and bring forth only the one you want to read, having it turn its pages for you within the painting itself.


Additionally, you can use the enter image property to slip these constructs under a door. If you want to strain the rules, nothing says the paintings they enter must be sufficiently large for them to fit through, so again, playing cards can store a Trompe L'oeil of any size and be slid under doors or through cracks. Creative use of mirage arcana might place murals wrapping around walls in useful ways for the Trompe L'oeils to slide anywhere they need to in the images.

[unseenmage]

Clockworks are crap. They even have a *1.5 price multiplier, for seemingly no reason.
I wish it wasnt so. Cuz I LIKE them. (Except the Mage wtf is up with it being unintelligent?!)


And don't Trompe L'oeil explicitly require a painting of their own dimensions?


Its dimensions must be at least as tall and wide as the trompe l’oeil itself.


Looks like that text is for creation. Wouldn't be unreasonable for a GM to extrapolate and apply it to the Enter Painting ability.


This reminds me, the Tattoo Guardian has no limits on how many one can wear nor on how big a creature can be worn. There is the danger of having multiple Tattoo Guardians die if you take too much damage though. As written, they'll all take half the damage you do.

[Coidzor]

Only advantage I can think of for clockworks is that you can make a clockwork mirror man or soulbound shell without murdering anyone. Somehow.

[unseenmage]

...
Somehow.

Just so you know, this made me chortle.


I had forgotten about adding the Clockwork subtype to stuff. After my playgroup started adventuring in Golarion we went for Robits and never looked back.

[Jack_Simth]

This reminds me, the Tattoo Guardian has no limits on how many one can wear nor on how big a creature can be worn. There is the danger of having multiple Tattoo Guardians die if you take too much damage though. As written, they'll all take half the damage you do.Yeah... it's something of a problem with Shield Other - multiple castings don't reduce the target's damage any further, just gets the 'donors' more hurt. It's CR 3 and caster level 9. At 9th, it's essentially 14.5 k market / 7.5 k crafting for what amounts to 42 temp HP and two extra (weak) attacks. Has some use, as long as you don't let it get completely destroyed and get it fixed up with (Greater) Make Whole after battle. Hopefully you don't regularly take 80+ damage in a fight.

[Coidzor]

Oh, I guess you can easily keep clockwork constructs healed up with a clockwork servant.

that's kind of a feature.


Just so you know, this made me chortle.


I had forgotten about adding the Clockwork subtype to stuff. After my playgroup started adventuring in Golarion we went for Robits and never looked back.

:smallamused:

Robutts are nice. Pity they're so expensive in price and basically impossible to actually make.

Unless maybe a Reclamation Robutt can make another Robutt without a lab, letting a non-Robutt version make Robots?

[Segev]

On the one hand, I agree; it would make sense to limit Enter Image to paintings no smaller than the canvass from which they're spawned. On the other, there's something nifty about carrying a tarot deck with a Trompe L'oeil minion on each card.

[unseenmage]

Oh, I guess you can easily keep clockwork constructs healed up with a clockwork servant.

that's kind of a feature.
It is supposed to be yeah, but for that price hike the darned things just aren't worth it. For comparison, Robots have the same price hike built into their subtype too, they get sentience, skills, and feats. And they require an artifact to build.

That they can potentially benefit from minor healing AND require constant maintenance/winding is not worth paying for them by CR, let alone with the additional cost.



:smallamused:

Robutts are nice. Pity they're so expensive in price and basically impossible to actually make.

Unless maybe a Reclamation Robutt can make another Robutt without a lab, letting a non-Robutt version make Robots?
The Reclamation Robot could potentially recondition broken or timeworn robots one imagines. We ruled that at our table the Reclamation 'bot by itself can only rebuild the body, not reactivate the bot proper. For that it'd still need the Robotics Technological Laboratory.

Remember too that that tech artifact requirement can totally be hacked via making a Simulacrum of an Animated Object of said tech lab.
It's just dangerous because there are other, much less innocuous, tech artifacts that one could access in this fashion.



On the one hand, I agree; it would make sense to limit Enter Image to paintings no smaller than the canvass from which they're spawned. On the other, there's something nifty about carrying a tarot deck with a Trompe L'oeil minion on each card.
I say go with Rule-of-Cool. That Tarot Harrow (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Harrow) card idea is pure gold. Just be sure to double check with your GM first so it all pans out okay.

It will require a convo about what, exactly, qualifies as a painting.
Does paint spilled under a door then dried count? What about several layers or lines of paint? What about Shrink Item on an actual painting for 'cloth form' then sliding that under the door? What about Shrink Item on a Harrow deck's worth of paintings then gluing them to the cards?


Edit:
Yeah... it's something of a problem with Shield Other - multiple castings don't reduce the target's damage any further, just gets the 'donors' more hurt. It's CR 3 and caster level 9. At 9th, it's essentially 14.5 k market / 7.5 k crafting for what amounts to 42 temp HP and two extra (weak) attacks. Has some use, as long as you don't let it get completely destroyed and get it fixed up with (Greater) Make Whole after battle. Hopefully you don't regularly take 80+ damage in a fight.
Which is precisely why I prefer to combine it with higher HD creatures via the Amalgam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/amalgam-creature-cr-special/) template and the Price by CR rules. Is loads of fun AND lets you wear magical tattoos of your favorite monsters.

[Jack_Simth]

Edit:
Which is precisely why I prefer to combine it with higher HD creatures via the Amalgam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/amalgam-creature-cr-special/) template and the Price by CR rules. Is loads of fun AND lets you wear magical tattoos of your favorite monsters.

You really like your optimization.

Oh, hey: A Trompe L'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) qualifies for Construct Modifications (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/). Construct Armor on something high-charisma makes for a suitable bonus HP pool (and it refills itself on destruction, with a delay). Crafter's Eyes is great on one intended as a spy. Rune-carved for anything you plan to send into battle, and the basic modifications (armor, ability scores, hit dice) are good for anything. Huh.

[unseenmage]

You really like your optimization.
You are not wrong.
I also really like the Amalgam template. Anything plus a Construct equals a Construct. That's useful in my book.


Oh, hey: A Trompe L'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) qualifies for Construct Modifications (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/). Construct Armor on something high-charisma makes for a suitable bonus HP pool (and it refills itself on destruction, with a delay). Crafter's Eyes is great on one intended as a spy. Rune-carved for anything you plan to send into battle, and the basic modifications (armor, ability scores, hit dice) are good for anything. Huh.
Beware the Ability Score Modification! For it is severely underpriced.

[Segev]

Beware the Ability Score Modification! For it is severely underpriced.

And yet, it's still more expensive on Animated Objects than just upping the size category, at least for improving Strength. (Admittedly, that comes at a Dex cost.) But it is solid evidence that one absolutely should not use +1 CR = +2 CP to add templates to them. A Simple Advanced Animated Object would add 2000 gp to its construction cost for +4 to all stats. Which, strangely, would give it 5s even in Wis and Cha. When normally adding +2 to a stat is 2000 gp...

Edit: Oh, hey, "weapon modification" only costs the price of the weapon to be added, and automatically makes the construct proficient with it. So any Animated Object weapons are automatically proficient with themselves! That is, in addition to their Slam attacks.

So animate, say, a heavy crossbow, and it can fire bolts with proficiency. Without having to pay for a "ranged attack" with CP.

[unseenmage]

And yet, it's still more expensive on Animated Objects than just upping the size category, at least for improving Strength. (Admittedly, that comes at a Dex cost.) But it is solid evidence that one absolutely should not use +1 CR = +2 CP to add templates to them. A Simple Advanced Animated Object would add 2000 gp to its construction cost for +4 to all stats. Which, strangely, would give it 5s even in Wis and Cha. When normally adding +2 to a stat is 2000 gp...
We banned the Advanced Template at our table. It's just too potent. Especially combined with Young.

We also play a lot of monster characters so the Ability Score Construct Mod and Advanced Template became wholly inappropriate unless repriced appropriately using Race Points and stat books respectively.


Edit: Oh, hey, "weapon modification" only costs the price of the weapon to be added, and automatically makes the construct proficient with it. So any Animated Object weapons are automatically proficient with themselves! That is, in addition to their Slam attacks.

So animate, say, a heavy crossbow, and it can fire bolts with proficiency. Without having to pay for a "ranged attack" with CP.
Wouldn't adding a weapon to an Animated Object that the object then wields require an appropriately sized weapon?

An Animated Object longsword works out to what; a tiny to small size creature? Adding a weapon to it means it would be wielding a fine to diminutive weapon?

Even if the weapon gets to 'wield itself' you're still paying for it twice. Once as per the cost of making an animated object and again as per the cost of making a weapon modification.

[Coidzor]

You are not wrong.
I also really like the Amalgam template. Anything plus a Construct equals a Construct. That's useful in my book.


Beware the Ability Score Modification! For it is severely underpriced.

It's pretty neat, I'd been wondering how you managed to get player access. Price by CR, now it seems so obvious. :V

Come to think of it, that may be cheaper and faster than making ioun stones and implanting them to increase a construct's skills.

[Psyren]

Note however that Amalgam is third-party.

[unseenmage]

It's pretty neat, I'd been wondering how you managed to get player access. Price by CR, now it seems so obvious. :V

Come to think of it, that may be cheaper and faster than making ioun stones and implanting them to increase a construct's skills.
Took us a while to realize that even if the Construct is mindless and the other creature isn't the template has an allowance that optionally lets the resultant Construct be mindless.

Which we took to mean the creator could easily control the Amalgam even in cases where one of the original creatures was deviously evilly genius.
Strip that genius away and viola, easily controlled mindless minion.

For retaining control of a, by default, evil genius mind things were potentially harder. We wound up deciding that so long as the commandable Construct half had more hit die the resultant Construct could be controlled.

[Segev]

We banned the Advanced Template at our table. It's just too potent. Especially combined with Young.

We also play a lot of monster characters so the Ability Score Construct Mod and Advanced Template became wholly inappropriate unless repriced appropriately using Race Points and stat books respectively. Yeah, I don't think the Advanced template is meant for anything other than quick-and-dirty GM upgrades to monsters.


Wouldn't adding a weapon to an Animated Object that the object then wields require an appropriately sized weapon?

An Animated Object longsword works out to what; a tiny to small size creature? Adding a weapon to it means it would be wielding a fine to diminutive weapon? Interesting question. I think, at least, we have examples where that isn't the case. There is a sample animated object scythe that clearly is doing scythe damage but is priced as a construct of its size. Admittedly, we don't get construction costs, but it doesn't seem to have a size of a much larger creature than the scythe itself would be.


Even if the weapon gets to 'wield itself' you're still paying for it twice. Once as per the cost of making an animated object and again as per the cost of making a weapon modification.Technically, as it's the same weapon, you have it covered in the "original body" portion of the costs.

[Coidzor]

Thanks for the reminder about the Young template, that'll make some Large-sized critters more manageable and possibly be able to be snuck around as dudes who've taken a vow of silence.


Took us a while to realize that even if the Construct is mindless and the other creature isn't the template has an allowance that optionally lets the resultant Construct be mindless.

Which we took to mean the creator could easily control the Amalgam even in cases where one of the original creatures was deviously evilly genius.
Strip that genius away and viola, easily controlled mindless minion.

For retaining control of a, by default, evil genius mind things were potentially harder. We wound up deciding that so long as the commandable Construct half had more hit die the resultant Construct could be controlled.

Evil Geniuses, eh? What were you going for, Liches, or more like Fiends?

[unseenmage]

...

Evil Geniuses, eh? What were you going for, Liches, or more like Fiends?
Aberrations and space monsters mostly. But Robot Ghosts, Clockwork Vampires, and Tattoo Guardian Wraiths were discussed.

Undead Amalgam Constructs are like LotR eagles, they solve ALL of the problems.

That said, I told my GM I wouldn't Amalgam to any Undead for that particular character unless it was a fall from grace type thing (for a TN android even :smalltongue: ).

[Segev]

Is there a need for Amalgamating things with Constructs when you can just make a Trompe L'oeil of it instead?

I was thinking about enter image and waxworks, but I think you couldn't use it to see from even a waxwork of yourself because it isn't an object - it's a creature. So if you wanted to abuse enter image, you'd need to have your minions carrying around little paintings of you, or figurines, or something. Animated objects that bear your likeness would not even work, unless they bore it on an object not a part of themselves.

[unseenmage]

Is there a need for Amalgamating things with Constructs when you can just make a Trompe L'oeil of it instead?

...
Not really, but I didn't know about Trompe L'oeil then and Trompe L'oeil doesnt let you have unintelligent or low intelligence Constructs.

That and for our games Trompe L'oeil and Alter Ego are probably going to be banned unless we can work out some way they don't just roflstomp the gameworld.

[Segev]

Not really, but I didn't know about Trompe L'oeil then and Trompe L'oeil doesnt let you have unintelligent or low intelligence Constructs. Low-intelligence is fine. The only requirement is having an intelligence score.


That and for our games Trompe L'oeil and Alter Ego are probably going to be banned unless we can work out some way they don't just roflstomp the gameworld.
Step 1 for even approaching balance of a Trompe L'oeil, I think, would be requiring that the necessary painting have the original posing for the portrait. This at least limits it to those you can get to cooperate (or capture).

Now, that doesn't really fix the problem; it just limits things from having the crafting of arbitrary things just because they can be imagined.

A complicated way to do it would be to try to price every ability so that more powerful Trompe L'oeils cost more to make. To some degree, the CR-based cost might be helpful, if only because (PC class level +1)^2 is going to be faster-growing than (PC class level) linear. But yeah, used as flat-out adventuring minions, they get out of hand fast.

[Coidzor]

Now here's one that might be a typo. Tiberolith. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/tiberolith/)

Listed CL is 12, CL requirement is 11. (http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tiberolith)

[Segev]

I'm having trouble picturing a Tiberolith. What is it?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm having trouble picturing a Tiberolith. What is it?

I'm picturing four rectangular slabs of stone tied together, shuffling around against each other to move.

[unseenmage]

I'm having trouble picturing a Tiberolith. What is it?

I'm picturing four rectangular slabs of stone tied together, shuffling around against each other to move.

You got me curious so I checked. Looks like this apparently. (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6eIAAOSwGvhUGu6j/s-l300.jpg)

On the way I got an eyeful of the Skinstitched (http://68.media.tumblr.com/09e6a25ebd439770d77ff12b056b5b7f/tumblr_njkeudozQB1sadc4zo4_540.jpg) construct. It is primarily made of face-skin. Whole faces worth. Ew.

[Segev]

Hey! Skinstitched are almost affordable! And the 8th CL is not in the requirements section, if we go with the "only if it's in the reqs section is it actually unskippable" rule.

[Coidzor]

Hey! Skinstitched are almost affordable! And the 8th CL is not in the requirements section, if we go with the "only if it's in the reqs section is it actually unskippable" rule.

Just remember to save plenty of gobbo faces! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Actually, IIRC, I was briefly considering the Skinstitched as having potential before I discovered Soulbound Mannequins and started my cataloging project.

Edit 2 and a Question: In the price by CR for constructs rules, is there anything discussing how to set the CL for the Spellcraft DC to make them? I've looked several times, but maybe this is like the time I completely missed how NPC class levels can be retrained into PC ones faster than PC levels into different PC levels in the retraining rules.

Edit 3: Angelic Guardians (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/angelic-guardian) have a listed CL of 9 and a CL requirement of 10.

Juggernauts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/juggernaut/) have CL of 13 and a CL requirement of 10.

Living Walls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/living-wall/) have CL 12 and a CL requirement of 8.

Sentinel Huts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/sentinel-hut/) have CL 10 and seem to have no minimum CL requirement.

Edit 4: Wait. Skinstitches (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/skinstitch/)seem to have a CL 10th requirement (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skinstitch) and a listed CL of 8 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary4/skinstitch.html). :smallconfused:

[Jack_Simth]

Oh. A Waxwork Creature makes for VERY good Construct Armor. You have to destroy the armor before you can hurt the wearer, and a waxwork creature only gets Staggered when reduced to 0 HP due to the Waxwork Regeneration. Downside: Fire is pretty much the most common form of energy damage in the game. But then... if you're 5th, get Extend Spell and cast Resist Energy (Fire) and/or Protection From Energy (Fire) on the beast at all times.

Edit: Better: You make an Intelligent Waxwork Creature, make a Trompe L'oeil of that, and when making the Trompe L'oeil, you turn it into Construct Armor. Then if someone does burn it , you get it back in 2d4 days provided you kept the painting.

[unseenmage]

...

Edit 2 and a Question: In the price by CR for constructs rules, is there anything discussing how to set the CL for the Spellcraft DC to make them? I've looked several times, but maybe this is like the time I completely missed how NPC class levels can be retrained into PC ones faster than PC levels into different PC levels in the retraining rules.

...
...

Building and Modifying Constructs says,
"The DC to craft a construct is 5 + the default caster level of the construct, just like for a magic item."

Magic Item Creation says,
"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

So, the default CL for an item is dependent on the spells contained therein.

When no spells are listed as requirements the default minimum CL would by necessity have to be based on when the creator has access to Craft Construct.

All of which is why my group houseruled that any spell listed in the Construct's statblock is a requisite spell; excepting spell lists for Constructs with spellcasting as so many requirements makes the Spellcraft DC almost impossibly high.

[Segev]

All of which is why my group houseruled that any spell listed in the Construct's statblock is a requisite spell; excepting spell lists for Constructs with spellcasting as so many requirements makes the Spellcraft DC almost impossibly high.

Not if you have the spells. Or have assistants with the spells.

[Morphic tide]

Not if you have the spells. Or have assistants with the spells.

CoDzilla strikes again! Because they fill literally all of the spells know requirements that exist on the Cleric or Druid list.

[Segev]

CoDzilla strikes again! Because they fill literally all of the spells know requirements that exist on the Cleric or Druid list.

Just make sure to have 'em all prepped, and you're good to go!



As an interesting side problem, if you wanted to craft a weapon (e.g. a heavy crossbow) into an Animated Object, and you wanted it to be Small sized, not Tiny, as a creature, would it be a weapon for a Large, Huge, or Gargantuan creature?

[unseenmage]

Not if you have the spells. Or have assistants with the spells.

Was running an Alchemist who built Constructs at the time so I never had the spells. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Was running an Alchemist who built Constructs at the time so I never had the spells. :smallsmile:

Then assistants are helpful.

On an epic-level 3.5 character, I once made a magic item which used wish as its basis, but skirted the hefty XP cost because all it did was provide an item crafter with spell access to any spell of 8th level or lower for purposes of crafting.

He turned around and abused this for staff-creation, backed by the Master Staff epic feat, mind, but it's a useful item even without going cheesy. (It was epic; I didn't feel it was overly cheesy for epic levels to use it that way.)

[unseenmage]

...

As an interesting side problem, if you wanted to craft a weapon (e.g. a heavy crossbow) into an Animated Object, and you wanted it to be Small sized, not Tiny, as a creature, would it be a weapon for a Large, Huge, or Gargantuan creature?
... ... Yes.

More seriously, a Medium creature's dagger is Tiny, a longsword Small, a greatsword is Medium IIRC.

But that's all guesstimation and the creature sizes are not precise.

[Coidzor]

I'd say a crossbow was more along the lines of one size smaller than the intended wielder unless it's an exotic Great Crossbow or whathaveyou.

[Segev]

I'd say a crossbow was more along the lines of one size smaller than the intended wielder unless it's an exotic Great Crossbow or whathaveyou.

Huh, really? So you'd put a heavy crossbow for a Medium creature as a Small animated object? I wouldn't think it'd be quite as big as, say, a Halfling or a gnome. Am I misjudging?

[unseenmage]

Huh, really? So you'd put a heavy crossbow for a Medium creature as a Small animated object? I wouldn't think it'd be quite as big as, say, a Halfling or a gnome. Am I misjudging?
Aren't heavy crossbows the ones you have to reload using both hands and your foot? On end they can stand almost as tall as a person IIRC.

Tiny is housecat sized. Small is between that and adult Human sized. Remember the size category has less to do with volume and mass and more to do with combat space effectively occupied.

That said, squeezing is a thing. A thing that more closely correlates to a creature's volume, though even squeezing allies can pass by each other almost effortlessly.

[Segev]

Fair enough. I just hadn't really thought of anything a human might wield as a weapon being Halfling-sized. But...I suppose it's feasible.

That means a Small Animated Object Heavy Crossbow (sized for a Medium creature) would have 3 HD and thus a +3 BAB, 12 Dex (for +1 to hit), and could have +1 HD (because you can add up to half the base HD, per the modifying constructs rules). Give it no movement rate at all for -3 CP, and it's 1350 gp market value (350 of that being the MW crossbow itself). +4 BAB for 4 HD, +1 Dex mod, +1 MW bonus... +6 to hit.

Give it an unseen servant dedicated to holding it aloft and keeping it loaded and it can even fire once per round!

Of course, a 3 sp/day warrior hireling with a 1 sp/day caddy can do much the same. Fewer hp, and only +1 to hit due to the MW crossbow you gave him (maybe +2 if you argue that you can find 12-dex warriors). Less accurate, but over 2000 days of active duty pay for the same price as MAKING the animated crossbow (let alone buying it).



Though, if you go by the CR pricing rather than the alternate HD+CP pricing, the net -2 CP from the additional HD and the removed movement speed drops it to CR 1, for a market price of 500 gp. 250 gp to craft. Now we're down to only 500 days to break even vs. hiring a warrior crossbowman and a peasant caddy to reload for him. Still have to provide the unseen servant, but you're a spellcaster. I'm sure you can manage.

[Coidzor]

That's pretty neat.

While going through another batch of listing CL requirements in my catalog, I noticed that Robot Golems (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-robot/) require CL 13 but have the item's CL as 14.

[unseenmage]

Crazy idea... Robot Trompe L'oeil. Occupies digital.screens instead of oil paintings.

Made me wonder though; What if an Artificial Intelligence (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/technologyGuide/ai.html) took over a Robot Trompe L'oeil? When the thing is slain does the AI rejuvenate with the host robot or do they both do their own thing when they die?

Added silliness, they're both copies of the same NPC! *dramatic music and hand waving*

[Segev]

Added silliness, they're both copies of the same NPC! *dramatic music and hand waving*

Well, with AIs, that almost makes sense. Assuming AI can be executed entirely in software, making copies of it is quite feasible.

[unseenmage]

Well, with AIs, that almost makes sense. Assuming AI can be executed entirely in software, making copies of it is quite feasible.

AIs are also Constructs and can be made via the Price by CR rules. Especially as Aggregates.

Also, IIRC theres a tech artifact that copies minds as AIs. Makes them insane though.

[Coidzor]

Just need a way to debug them, then.

Or focus their insanity.

[unseenmage]

Just need a way to debug them, then.

Or focus their insanity.

We custom researched a PF version of 3.X Programmed Amnesia as a tech robot debug item.

[Coidzor]

That sounds about right, then. :smallamused:

Found some more discrepancy constructs, two(ish) of which can be made starting at 5th level/CL 5.

Necrophidius (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/necrophidius) has CL 10, and a requirement of CL 7.

Lesser Necrophidius (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/necrophidius/lesser-necrophidius) has CL 6, and a requirement of CL 5. So they can be made right off the bat.

The Iron Cobra (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Iron%20Cobra) variants (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/cobra-constructs/iron-cobra/), unlike 3.5, don't seem to have CL requirements, which makes it much easier to build them sooner, though they still become irrelevant very quickly even so, just given their piddly number of HD. Just CL 7 for all the various materials.

Edit: And I think I have just finished cataloging just about every construct except for alter egos and AIs.

Also, I get the strangest feeling that someone forgot that Iron Cobras and their variants only have 1 HD and have no mechanism by which more HD may be added. :smallconfused:

[Segev]

Also, I get the strangest feeling that someone forgot that Iron Cobras and their variants only have 1 HD and have no mechanism by which more HD may be added. :smallconfused:

Other than how pricey they can be, what makes you say that? (Or is that it?)

[Coidzor]

Other than how pricey they can be, what makes you say that? (Or is that it?)

The Adamantine Cobra being listed as having +5 hp/HD, when it only has 1 HD stuck out to me in particular to make me think "what on earth was the person who wrote this on about?"

[Jack_Simth]

...

Please check if this stupid exploit works:

I make a Waxwork Creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/) of... well, anything. Add Sentience (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/sentient-waxwork-cr-0-1/), and use the Building and Modifying Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/) to give it... well, anything I'd like (Armor modifications, hit die modifications, ability score modifications, construct armor, et cetera), then make a Trompe L'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) of the result.

Does the Trompe L'oeil copy keep, at the normal price for a Trompe L'oeil, all the modifications I made to the Waxwork at full cost? Does this also permit me to more than double the base creature's hit dice (+50% when building it as a Waxwork, +50% over the waxwork when making it a Trompe L'oeil)?

[Coidzor]

...

Please check if this stupid exploit works:

I make a Waxwork Creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/) of... well, anything. Add Sentience (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sentient-waxwork-cr-0/sentient-waxwork-cr-0-1/), and use the Building and Modifying Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs/) to give it... well, anything I'd like (Armor modifications, hit die modifications, ability score modifications, construct armor, et cetera), then make a Trompe L'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) of the result.

Does the Trompe L'oeil copy keep, at the normal price for a Trompe L'oeil, all the modifications I made to the Waxwork at full cost? Does this also permit me to more than double the base creature's hit dice (+50% when building it as a Waxwork, +50% over the waxwork when making it a Trompe L'oeil)?

I think if you make a Waxwork of an already advanced creature you may be able to squeeze in even more HD by stopping just short of 150% of the base creature's HD so you don't have to advance its size(?), but... I believe this works, yeah. The modified Waxwork Creature's HD become the Trompe L'oeil's new baseline HD that can be further modified by HD Modification.

I didn't find anything to prevent making a construct version of an advanced version of a creature and then adding more HD to it with HD modification when I was reading through the advancing and modifying monsters sections of the PRD and PFSRD.



So you should be able to advance a 10 HD creature to 14 HD (15 if you know it can't increase size), make a Waxwork version of that 14(or 15) HD creature, then use HD modification to make it into a 21(or 22) HD Waxwork version, then Trompe L'oeil it up and use HD modification to make it into a 31(or 33) HD Trompe L'oeil Waxwork creature.

I believe you could even use the Young Template to push things further, as you could advance a creature with 10 HD as its base up to 15 HD and give it an increase in a size category and then advance again to 21 HD, just one HD away from increasing 2 size categories, slap on Young to bring it back down to the desired size, and then make the construct version. Then you'd have HD modification increase it up to 31 HD for the Waxwork creature and can get 46 HD on the Trompe L'oeil of the Waxwork creature.



It gets even stupider if you loop through Alter Ego a few times or in 3.P with Incarnate Construct > Dust-Form/Dust-Stuffed/Taxidermic Creature as an expensive and depraved loop to make a creature with an obscene number of HD.


The way Trompe L'oeil works, you'd effectively be paying for the HD twice, though, so that's something to bear in mind.

[Jack_Simth]

I think if you make a Waxwork of an already advanced creature you may be able to squeeze in even more HD by stopping just short of 150% of the base creature's HD so you don't have to advance its size(?), but... I believe this works, yeah. The modified Waxwork Creature's HD become the Trompe L'oeil's new baseline HD that can be further modified by HD Modification.

I didn't find anything to prevent making a construct version of an advanced version of a creature and then adding more HD to it with HD modification when I was reading through the advancing and modifying monsters sections of the PRD and PFSRD.



So you should be able to advance a 10 HD creature to 14 HD (15 if you know it can't increase size), make a Waxwork version of that 14(or 15) HD creature, then use HD modification to make it into a 21(or 22) HD Waxwork version, then Trompe L'oeil it up and use HD modification to make it into a 31(or 33) HD Trompe L'oeil Waxwork creature.

I believe you could even use the Young Template to push things further, as you could advance a creature with 10 HD as its base up to 15 HD and give it an increase in a size category and then advance again to 21 HD, just one HD away from increasing 2 size categories, slap on Young to bring it back down to the desired size, and then make the construct version. Then you'd have HD modification increase it up to 31 HD for the Waxwork creature and can get 46 HD on the Trompe L'oeil of the Waxwork creature.



It gets even stupider if you loop through Alter Ego a few times or in 3.P with Incarnate Construct > Dust-Form/Dust-Stuffed/Taxidermic Creature as an expensive and depraved loop to make a creature with an obscene number of HD.


The way Trompe L'oeil works, you'd effectively be paying for the HD twice, though, so that's something to bear in mind.

For the hit dice, sure. And keep in mind with HD loops:
A: Incarnate Construct is 3.5 restricted, won't fly at all tables.
B: You're still limited because of the skill check
C: Pathfinder Crafting rules don't like failed skill checks - do you want to find out the hard way what happens if you fail the check and get a cursed Trompe L'oeil of a massively-powerful creature? I don't.

For the other stuff, though? Ability score increases, natural armor increases, rune-carved, et cetera? If you need the original to pose for the painting (not actually mentioned as a requirement anywhere...), then you're making one very expensive construct, and making much less expensive copies that have all of the original construct's abilities, plus the ability to respawn on destruction (provided you keep track of the paintings, of course). If you don't need the original to pose (it isn't listed as one of the requirements in the write-up, after all...), then you're just paying for the hit dice and the painting (painting is based on the size, of course) of the final result. All other add-ons are basically free (big exception being Crafter’s Eyes, which requires something outside the construct, but there may be others every here and there).

[Coidzor]

For the hit dice, sure. And keep in mind with HD loops:
A: Incarnate Construct is 3.5 restricted, won't fly at all tables.
B: You're still limited because of the skill check
C: Pathfinder Crafting rules don't like failed skill checks - do you want to find out the hard way what happens if you fail the check and get a cursed Trompe L'oeil of a massively-powerful creature? I don't.

That's... why I called it out as a 3.P thing. :smallconfused:

Yeah, about 63 HD is about the cap I can see without really reaching, and that's as a 20th level character hitting the DC 68 Spellcraft check by Taking 10. Although I didn't factor in Cooperative Crafting, which may pump the Spellcraft check result as well as the speed of crafting. Even with less investment in Spellcraft, it seems like generally, one is capable of slapping more HD onto a construct than one is actually allowed to by the HD Modification rules. Especially since, IIRC, HD Modification just uses the Spellcraft DC of the base construct, not the new number of HD.


For the other stuff, though? Ability score increases, natural armor increases, rune-carved, et cetera? If you need the original to pose for the painting (not actually mentioned as a requirement anywhere...), then you're making one very expensive construct, and making much less expensive copies that have all of the original construct's abilities, plus the ability to respawn on destruction (provided you keep track of the paintings, of course). If you don't need the original to pose (it isn't listed as one of the requirements in the write-up, after all...), then you're just paying for the hit dice and the painting (painting is based on the size, of course) of the final result. All other add-ons are basically free (big exception being Crafter’s Eyes, which requires something outside the construct, but there may be others every here and there).

Yeah, if there's something you want to make a lot of copies of, it's a great thing. Especially if you gear up the base Sentient Waxwork, make an Alter Ego out of its sense of dutifulness or something useful, and then make a contingent of Trompe L'oeils out of that.

And, yeah, if you don't need the original to even exist, let alone sit for the painting, it's gonna be crazy go nuts.