OOTS #1087 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Emanick]

Yikes. Awkward. :smalltongue:

Interesting to note that the Exarch is being influenced by his "host," too. Gives me hope for Durkon's agency.

[Bubble]

What happened to the half-strip at 1086? I was expecting an extra half-strip at the top of 1087...

Book bonus comic?

[Lord Torath]

Huh. Last time we had a "Followers Follow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html)", things didn't turn out so well for the follower.

Thanks, Giant!

[Yuki Akuma]

What happened to the half-strip at 1086? I was expecting an extra half-strip at the top of 1087...

Book bonus comic?

That half-page will probably be used for author commentary, if he doesn't write a bonus half-comic to fill it.

[hroþila]

Yikes. Awkward. :smalltongue:

Interesting to note that the Exarch is being influenced by his "host," too. Gives me hope for Durkon's agency.
I don't think he means his host is actively influencing him right now, but rather that the aspects of his personality that were twisted to create the vampire spirit make him a bit of a basket case. Could be wrong, though.

[Jasder]

Interesting to get a new look at some of the dynamic between the vampires. Exarch seems happy to follow, but maybe the others are less so?

[Quebbster]

Interesting to see such introspection from the vampires.
Then again "it's my host's fault, not mine!" seems like a convenient excuse...

[Calemyr]

I don't think he means his host is actively influencing him right now, but rather that the aspects of his personality that were twisted to create the vampire spirit make him a bit of a basket case. Could be wrong, though.

Ah, but I think it suggests the opposite. Darkon just used the same phrasing and philosophy as someone in the memory. He is being actively influenced by what Durkon dredges up.

Also, I suspect Durkon is trying to use memories of bardic music to buff himself.

[Starknight62040]

Awesome Comic!

[IDrankWHAT]

And Durkon, once again, proves he's a force to be reckoned with! And the fact that the other dwarf (and hopefully the other people who have been vamped out) are fighting against their captors as well, sounds like Team Hel is having a HEL of a time getting things done! (I can hear the groans now LOL)

[Arkku]

I thought the exarch was the leader of his sect, so how come the ex-exarch is now such a follower, seemingly beneath the two random vampires…

[Psyren]

Gontor's attitude doesn't seem quite as childlike as a thrall. Could he be free-willed? (With air quotes around "free" given that his host appears to be exerting some influence.)

I also wonder - did Malack's host color his outlook too? Or are dwarven spirits perhaps singularly stubborn?

[Mad Humanist]

Looks to me like Durkula's plan has come apart and he is now improvising - about as well as that trainee bard.

[hamishspence]

Interesting to see how other vampires regard their trapped souls.

[The Giant]

Huh. Last time we had a "Followers Follow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html)", things didn't turn out so well for the follower.

Thanks, Giant!

Huh. That's unintentional. I'll think of a new name for this comic, I don't want people thinking it's an intentional callback

[Hypersmith]

Just caught up two weeks ago, I honestly look forward to this so much.

[The Giant]

OK, comic renamed with pretty much the same theme from the other angle.

[MReav]

I don't think he means his host is actively influencing him right now, but rather that the aspects of his personality that were twisted to create the vampire spirit make him a bit of a basket case. Could be wrong, though.

Well, mythological vampires are supposed to be obsessive compulsive. One of the ways you can deal with a vampire is to throw rice/other small object on the ground. Their obsessive natures would compel them to pick up every single object one at a time.

[IDrankWHAT]

Huh. That's unintentional. I'll think of a new name for this comic, I don't want people thinking it's an intentional callback

The change is PERFECT! LOL

[Basement Cat]

I suspect that Gloves (the female human vampire) is less than enthralled at the ongoing setback. Greg had better keep her as a thrall because I suspect that if she gets free will she may be less dedicated to Hel's game plan.

[Fitzclowningham]

I know this is a continuation of the whole "Durkula draws the wrong conclusions from Durkon's memories" thing, but I can't figure out the lesson he was supposed to get vs. the one he came away with. Hope someone here can figure it out.

[Lord Torath]

Huh. That's unintentional. I'll think of a new name for this comic, I don't want people thinking it's an intentional callback"Masters Mastering Mastery" I love it! :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Quester]

If she were already good, she wouldn't have anything to learn from me. Perfect.

As a teacher myself, I'm so going to appropriate that line.

And the new title is even better! Well done on the speedy retitling, Rich.

[Shining Wrath]

If Durkon and Gontor are "hosts", that makes the vampires "guests" or "parasites", depending on the sense of the word "host" used.


a person who receives or entertains other people as guests.
"a dinner-party host"
synonyms: party-giver, hostess, entertainer
"the host greeted the guests"
antonyms: guest

2.
Biology
an animal or plant on or in which a parasite or commensal organism lives.

You could argue for either, or even both. We could refer to the vampires as "unwelcome guests" instead of things like "Durkula" and "Gonetor".

Anyway, this is explicit acknowledgement that the vampire is directly influenced by the host. Which means so long as Durkon struggles, he matters. I'm going to go out on a fairly sturdy limb here and guess that the unwelcome guest is lying to Durkon about the inevitability of being absorbed into the vampire.

Also, it appears that the minion vampires have the ability to argue with each other and possibly even dislike each other.

Lastly, notice how Squeaky is uncomfortable with the term "master", while Durkon's unwelcome guest accepts the word as a matter of course. This may be foreshadowing of a sort; perhaps it is possible for the dwarven hosts to break free from control because a master / slave relationship is unnatural for them.

[hroþila]

Ah, but I think it suggests the opposite. Darkon just used the same phrasing and philosophy as someone in the memory. He is being actively influenced by what Durkon dredges up.
That's true, but I'm not sure to what degree it'd be the same as someone unconsciously quoting from a movie they had watched, for example.

[unbeliever536]

Gontor's attitude doesn't seem quite as childlike as a thrall. Could he be free-willed? (With air quotes around "free" given that his host appears to be exerting some influence.)

I also wonder - did Malack's host color his outlook too? Or are dwarven spirits perhaps singularly stubborn?

Malack was two centuries into his vampirism at the time we met him, and had probably fully absorbed the mortal he was made from. He certainly seemed to consider his existence continuous with that of his "host". Perhaps all vampires mature into a Malack-like view of their state eventually? Another possibility is that the difference in outlook results in a difference between Hel and Nergal's methods of creating vampires. Perhaps Nergal isn't so heavy on the irony in his vampire personalities, or Hel's vampires have unique difficulties with dwarven hosts, due to her difficulties in dealing with that race.

[Carl]

OK, comic renamed with pretty much the same theme from the other angle.

Ughh what a terrible tongue twister. Brilliant! Sorry but the twistery nature caught my tongue somthing fierce and i had to comment.

Interesting strip but one i feel will become much more important later.

[Shining Wrath]

The vampire personalities are opposed to the host personalities.

Gontor had his life planned out for him and rebelled, so the unwelcome guest becomes extremely upset when things don't do what is expected. Gontor's vampire is a perfect follower.

Durkon always supported others and was a perfect follower, so the unwelcome guest is a leader who provides no support to anyone.

The vampire is the antithesis of the host.

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?

[Shining Wrath]

Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?

Rich's vampires are not exactly D&D monster manual creations; the monster manual doesn't say much about the soul of the victim other than it being trapped inside the body, and that a vampire made from a person with class levels can hold on to those class abilities.

[Mad Humanist]

I know this is a continuation of the whole "Durkula draws the wrong conclusions from Durkon's memories" thing, but I can't figure out the lesson he was supposed to get vs. the one he came away with. Hope someone here can figure it out.

I think Durkon is mastering the art of misdirecting the Vampire spirit. And the Vampire spirit is dutifully following by focussing in the wrong way on Roy.

[Ron Miel]

Huh. That's unintentional. I'll think of a new name for this comic, I don't want people thinking it's an intentional callback

Why bother? You've had duplicate names several times and nobody has thought anything of it.


"Your nephew" ? I thought he was he was a family friend, and not an actual relative.

[danielxcutter]

Raise your hand, paw, claw, or other appendage if you liked this update. *raises all of them*

[Anymage]

Malack was two centuries into his vampirism at the time we met him, and had probably fully absorbed the mortal he was made from. He certainly seemed to consider his existence continuous with that of his "host". Perhaps all vampires mature into a Malack-like view of their state eventually? Another possibility is that the difference in outlook results in a difference between Hel and Nergal's methods of creating vampires. Perhaps Nergal isn't so heavy on the irony in his vampire personalities, or Hel's vampires have unique difficulties with dwarven hosts, due to her difficulties in dealing with that race.

I think there's a Rich quote somewhere to the effect that Nergal vamp spirits are not fundamentally different from Hel vampire spirits. Assume that, aside from who they call boss, they're the same sort of thing.

As for the personalities, I'm going to go with the safe assumption that either the vampire spirit has to be crafted to "fit" the host, or else the negative energy spirit is shaped by some residual self-ness that sticks with the body. (Otherwise, if vampire spirits could be whatever the relevant death god wanted, they'd be tactically perfect epic level characters.)

It's unlikely that the host can directly fight for control, and even less likely that certain sorts of souls would be especially adept at such a task. Still, older vampires like Malak do seem to consider their vampire state to be a continuation of their mortal state. Whether that's because the vampire soul and the host soul eventually merge or because someone with all your memories, experiences, and outlooks would be hard to distinguish from you is a largely academic question.

[Peelee]

Raise your hand, paw, claw, or other appendage if you liked this update. *raises all of them*

Now I'm scared of what they're putting in the water over in S. Korea.

[Tiltowait]

Interesting that the vampire seems to have a sincere interest in taking a violent, evil revenge on Durkon's behalf. He mentioned the same here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html
But I wrote it off as villain monologuing (and keeping up the "I'm Durkon" facade) at the time.

[137beth]

Puns involving repeating one word a bunch of times...somehow I was not expecting that.

[Mad Humanist]

Now I'm scared of what they're putting in the water over in S. Korea.

Oh there are plenty of good kaiju documentaries available.

[Shining Wrath]

Interesting that the vampire seems to have a sincere interest in taking a violent, evil revenge on Durkon's behalf. He mentioned the same here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html
But I wrote it off as villain monologuing (and keeping up the "I'm Durkon" facade) at the time.

Durkon's nature is to accept life as it comes. If the unwelcome guest is the opposite of Durkon, then revenge would be part of its nature.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The vampire personalities are opposed to the host personalities.

Gontor had his life planned out for him and rebelled, so the unwelcome guest becomes extremely upset when things don't do what is expected. Gontor's vampire is a perfect follower.

Durkon always supported others and was a perfect follower, so the unwelcome guest is a leader who provides no support to anyone.

The vampire is the antithesis of the host.
Indeed. In-comic, it is described as "the host on their worst day". For Gontor, that would be the day when he went against his family's wishes, left behind his cushy existence and wife-to-be, before things went back on the rails when he joined the Stone Worship. Alone in the world, belief that what he was doing would eventually be for the best, might have seemed like a cold comfort for breaking off the engagement, the cushy job, etc. At his most depressed, crawling back to doing whatever his parents wanted him to do must have seen inviting. Of course Gontor, like Durkon, found a way to crawl out of that hole. Greg and V-Gontor can't: they are stuck at that point, pale shadows of the beings they control.


Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?
The rules just tell you what the vampire powers and abilities are. How the player/DM chooses to role-play it is (thankfully) not in the rules.


Raise your hand, paw, claw, or other appendage if you liked this update. *raises all of them*

I would, but a canine raising a leg carries a slightly different connotation from the one you're looking for, I suspect*. :smalltongue:

Grey Wolf

*This joke almost certainly stolen from Freefall, although heck if I remember which specific strip.

[elros]

Earlier, the vampire in Durkon said he was shaped to fill the hole in his heart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).
Makes me think that the undead are a weird version of our shadow self (https://lonerwolf.com/shadow-self-test/).

[Tvtyrant]

Raise your hand, paw, claw, or other appendage if you liked this update. *raises all of them*

Okay.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeons/images/7/71/809454-chaos_spawn_super.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120708231144

[Chei]

How very topical. Great strip! I find it interesting that Durkula's phrasing is being influenced by people in Durkon's memories, rather than the man himself. In general I just like how these vampires are an Evil reaction to a Good/Neutral person's life. Kinda want to see an Evil person's vampire spirit...

[Psyren]

Malack was two centuries into his vampirism at the time we met him, and had probably fully absorbed the mortal he was made from. He certainly seemed to consider his existence continuous with that of his "host". Perhaps all vampires mature into a Malack-like view of their state eventually? Another possibility is that the difference in outlook results in a difference between Hel and Nergal's methods of creating vampires. Perhaps Nergal isn't so heavy on the irony in his vampire personalities, or Hel's vampires have unique difficulties with dwarven hosts, due to her difficulties in dealing with that race.

Indeed, all of these are possible, hence my idle speculation.

It'll probably be moot in any event, since "Hel wins, the world is unmade, and she becomes queen of the Northern Gods presiding over a new age of Dwarven misery" is probably not how this is going to turn out.

[Dr.Zero]

Interesting that the vampire seems to have a sincere interest in taking a violent, evil revenge on Durkon's behalf. He mentioned the same here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html
But I wrote it off as villain monologuing (and keeping up the "I'm Durkon" facade) at the time.

I wonder if according to the author the vampires absorb even the feelings related to the memories: frustration, hate, sadness, humiliation. Maybe just enlarging the negative feelings and kinda ignoring the positive ones. Thus not watching the memories like a movie, but "living" them.
In that case it seems reasonable that they might develop the will to avenge "themselves"; exactly as if what happened to the host has happened to them, instead, since they felt the "burn".

By the way the exarch attitude doesn't seem too far away from a: "How could I have been so stupid, back there?" that I think everyone has felt once in their life, regarding something they did years before. Just expressed talking in third person.

Anyway I'm starting to love team evil b and their internal interrelations. :smallbiggrin:

[warmachine]

A real leader would have bull****ted with something like "There should be plenty of dramatic fighting areas in the other communal areas and fewer wards."

[Unoriginal]

I thought the exarch was the leader of his sect, so how come the ex-exarch is now such a follower, seemingly beneath the two random vampires…

Because the vampire's spirit is created in reaction to the one of the host, or, as Greg put it, they're the personification of the host's worst. So: dedicated leader who was willing to not obey his elders and to discuss with Hel's priest for political gain ----> short tempered follower who gets mad when things don't go the way they "should".

Though he seems more to be Greg's second-in-command than beneath the other two

[Psyren]

I wonder if according to the author the vampires absorb even the feelings related to the memories: frustration, hate, sadness, humiliation. Maybe just enlarging the negative feelings and kinda ignoring the positive ones. Thus not watching the memories like a movie, but "living" them.
In that case it seems reasonable that they might develop the will to avenge "themselves"; exactly as if what happened to the host has happened to them, instead, since they felt the "burn".

This seems to be exactly what Darkon is doing. His primary allegiance is to Hel's goals, but the fact that he gets to exact revenge on Dwarven society in the process makes it that much more appealing.

[Anarion]

The influence on the vampire's language from the memory is interesting. It makes me wonder if Durkon's spirit can influence the vampire's decision-making. I doubt he'll turn it good or alter its fundamental goals, but he might be able to affect its habits and methods.

[Jay R]

I know this is a continuation of the whole "Durkula draws the wrong conclusions from Durkon's memories" thing, but I can't figure out the lesson he was supposed to get vs. the one he came away with. Hope someone here can figure it out.

I don't think we're supposed to figure it out yet. We're getting the background knowledge needed to understand the joke when it gets played.

[8BitNinja]

Okay.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeons/images/7/71/809454-chaos_spawn_super.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120708231144

Looks like everyone is invited, including unholy abominations.

[Ramza00]

(Rich Burley is kind of laying it on thick if you know what to look for in the 1087 comic)

Monomyth / The Heroes Journey

Jungian Individuation

SQUEEEEEELLLLLL

(This is for the other OOTS readers, I am just talking out loud)

Maybe for Durkon to grow he had to reach his lowest point, he literally had to descend into hell. And in that hell he had to learn form his enemies, and from his enemies he realized he was already in a hell of his own making for he was not listening to his own desires and was always taking care of someone else. And through the experiences of his enemy Durkon grew. He learned he needed to also take care of his own desires and blah blah, and now he is a better Durkon than he was prior to his enemy. He is a happier Durkon. And now that he learned that lesson he is now at the point of the "Hero's journey" where he is going to escape from heaven and be the Greensear or the Master of Two Worlds / Domains. Durkon now has permission to freedom to live. And live he shall

And Durkon is now at the part of the story where he gets to kick all kinds of ass.

For he has conquered his enemy, by incorporating aspects of his enemy inside of himself, while remaining himself, and thus he is stronger than he used to be.

And this is the basics of Jungian Individuation, which a follower of Jung, Joseph Campbell then turned into the Hero's Journey / Monomyth / A Hero with a Thousand Faces (a true master has a 1000 tools at all times at every moment.)

Damn Rich Burlew is a good writter, he even named this comic Masters Mastering Mastery :smallbiggrin:

[ManuelSacha]

I don't know what Burlew had in mind, when he wrote the lyrics for Janna's song, but I heard it in my head on the notes of the companions' ballad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkKNYyOdj-M) from the last Dragon Age game, by Elizaveta Khripounova. :smallsmile:

[SilverCacaobean]

The vampires' interactions are getting very interesting. Gonetor doesn't look like a thrall to me. Maybe the thralls are the other two, who haven't had character development. Greg and Gonetor seem to have taken the lives and perceived shortcomings of their hosts personally, even though they speak of them in the third person... That's a bit strange... Anyway, I'm liking the vampire group dynamic.

The last panel caught me off guard and made me laugh more than it should, too...

[Jasdoif]

I know this is a continuation of the whole "Durkula draws the wrong conclusions from Durkon's memories" thing, but I can't figure out the lesson he was supposed to get vs. the one he came away with. Hope someone here can figure it out.Durkon heard something and a memory popped up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html).

[The MunchKING]

I find it interesting that this comic always seems to update in the middle of the day where I live. All the other comics update late at night.

[KorvinStarmast]

The last panel caught me off guard and made me laugh more than it should, too... Yeah, it's a nice change in direction.

I liked the bad bard song. They all have to start somewhere ...

[unbeliever536]

This seems to be exactly what Darkon is doing. His primary allegiance is to Hel's goals, but the fact that he gets to exact revenge on Dwarven society in the process makes it that much more appealing.

Indeed, he strongly implies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) that this is his main motivation for going along with her plan, and that another vampire, formed from a different sort of low, might not have done so.

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Very good, thanks, mr.Giant :-)

[drazen]

Indeed, he strongly implies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) that this is his main motivation for going along with her plan, and that another vampire, formed from a different sort of low, might not have done so.

Greg complains that Durkon never satisfied his own desires, yet has chosen to supplicate himself before Hel as her unquestioning servant. Seems a little off that he'd complain Durkon was nothing but obedient, when he's doing the same thing himself.

I'm also trying to reconcile #1086 where Greg tells Durkon he has little time left "as a discrete consciousness," yet in #948 the process is described as the possessed body's original spirit succumbing to "eternal dormancy."

So... which is it, exactly?

[Jasdoif]

I'm also trying to reconcile #1086 where Greg tells Durkon he has little time left "as a discrete consciousness," yet in #948 the process is described as the possessed body's original spirit succumbing to "eternal dormancy."I suspect it won't be a conscious dormancy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Greg complains that Durkon never satisfied his own desires, yet has chosen to supplicate himself before Hel as her unquestioning servant. Seems a little off that he'd complain Durkon was nothing but obedient, when he's doing the same thing himself.

Ummm... no, Greg's clearly trying to do both at once: be Hel's servant, and satisfy his own desire to destroy Roy (who seems to really rub Greg the wrong way). Criticising Durkon for not indulging himself is perfectly valid when Greg is indeed trying to juggle both at the same time.

Yes, it is likely that said juggling of competing desires might be one of the fatal flaws that destroy Greg, but it is otherwise not a hypocritical stance.

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

So we see that the other vampires constantly call Durkon "Master," just as Thrall!Durkon did to Malack, yet at the same time this strip also tells us what's going on in the Exarch's head is the same as Durkon. Does this finally end the idea that Thrall!Durkon was not the same entity as HPOH/Durkula/Gr*g/"Durkon"?

[SaintRidley]

Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?

The whole host soul/vampire spirit thing is entirely a Rich thing, not a D&D thing with rules behind it. One book makes a suggestion that this is an option for how vampires can work, but that's the closest D&D gets to this.

[8BitNinja]

Now I'm scared of what they're putting in the water over in S. Korea.

You see, it's a very simple and pathetic story. I helped build a floating city running completely on nuclear power. People worked, played, and went to school there. Life was good. Then one day, one reactor went boom and now no one wants to live there for some reason.

Can you believe these people?

[klarg1]

I don't think he means his host is actively influencing him right now, but rather that the aspects of his personality that were twisted to create the vampire spirit make him a bit of a basket case. Could be wrong, though.

That would be roughly my interpretation too.

Durkon was betrayed by the organization he loyally followed, and his vampire spirit reflects some level of rebellion against that trauma. (and something similar for the Exarch)

[Chronos]

Quoth Shining Wrath:

Lastly, notice how Squeaky is uncomfortable with the term "master", while Durkon's unwelcome guest accepts the word as a matter of course. This may be foreshadowing of a sort; perhaps it is possible for the dwarven hosts to break free from control because a master / slave relationship is unnatural for them.
I think that's mostly just a reflection of the fact that, atypically for a dwarf, Squeaky is chaotic (or at least, non-lawful). He is a bard, after all, and we've also seen how he dealt with Sidgi's injunction not to tell Durkon about his father.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does this finally end the idea that Thrall!Durkon was not the same entity as HPOH/Durkula/Gr*g/"Durkon"?

No, because that idea is rooted in the fact that it is hard to imagine Greg acting as subservient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) and child-like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html) as when he was a Thrall. At best, we can speculate that Thralldom may come in degrees: the master vampire can completely dominate the thrall's will, reducing them to barely independent entities, as Malack did (down to and including considering them children) whilst Greg allows them a lot more freedom of thought, since he needs partner-in-crime.

Grey Wolf

[Chronos]

Oh, and we've also seen the Exarch-vampire actively seeking out loopholes in his orders, when he concluded that it was acceptable to drain the tiger, even though he'd been told not to drain any people. That doesn't seem very thrall-like.

I'm guessing that, since the High Priest of Hel needed to produce an awful lot of spawn vampires very quickly, and since (I don't think, at least) thralls can't create their own spawn, he had to liberate the Exarch-vampire so they could both proceed with the biting and draining and such.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

thralls can't create their own spawn

They can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm).


If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.(emphasis mine)

However, the quote itself gives us an answer: divide and conquer, just as you said. There were a lot of non-deistic clerics to convert, so Greg might have released V-Gontor just so they could get more vampires up and running independently of one another.

Under that assumption, V-Gontor calls Greg "Master" because that's just how much of a boot-licker he is.

GW

[Quibblicious]

Looks like everyone is invited, including unholy abominations.

Yay! I can participate!

Q

[RatElemental]

I think that's mostly just a reflection of the fact that, atypically for a dwarf, Squeaky is chaotic (or at least, non-lawful). He is a bard, after all, and we've also seen how he dealt with Sidgi's injunction not to tell Durkon about his father.

Now I'm wondering if that apprentice bard is lawful, and if the process of becoming a (decent) bard inherently involves developing ways of thinking that lead one to be non-lawful.

[Ruck]

I wasn't sure if Count Durkula's talk to Durkon about being created to fill the hole in his heart was psychological warfare or actually true, but I thought last strip was evidence toward the latter, and this strip is practically confirmation.


I thought the exarch was the leader of his sect, so how come the ex-exarch is now such a follower, seemingly beneath the two random vampires…

What makes him seem like he's beneath the other two vampires?

[2D8HP]

...Still, older vampires like Malak do seem to consider their vampire state to be a continuation of their mortal state. Whether that's because the vampire soul and the host soul eventually merge or because someone with all your memories, experiences, and outlooks would be hard to distinguish from you is a largely academic question.


Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:

"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)

[Samzat]

Thanks for answering my question from last time rich

[Chei]

Greg complains that Durkon never satisfied his own desires, yet has chosen to supplicate himself before Hel as her unquestioning servant. Seems a little off that he'd complain Durkon was nothing but obedient, when he's doing the same thing himself.
So... which is it, exactly?

When Durkula had Roy on the ropes back in Strip #1006 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html), he suggested that he doesn't care who he serves, as long as he can take revenge. Roy basically made the same argument you did, as well. This line of his rings pretty true to me. I think that page, and the strip where Durkula makes the "your worst day" speech, solidified revenge as his primary motivator. Hel is just his best shot at taking revenge. She gives him clerical powers, already has a plan, and her domain is the worst place a dwarf could end up.

[Finagle]

(Rich Burley is kind of laying it on thick if you know what to look for in the 1087 comic)

Monomyth / The Heroes Journey

Jungian Individuation

SQUEEEEEELLLLLL

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these. Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

[Unoriginal]

I find interesting that Greg basically presenting himself as doing a favor to Durkon, and even as some kind of teacher/person who knows how Durkon should live.

[Peelee]

You see, it's a very simple and pathetic story. I helped build a floating city running completely on nuclear power. People worked, played, and went to school there. Life was good. Then one day, one reactor went boom and now no one wants to live there for some reason.

Can you believe these people?

Well, to be fair to them, reactors going boom doesn't just happen; it takes a lot for that to go down.

[Finagle]

Durkon was betrayed by the organization he loyally followed, and his vampire spirit reflects some level of rebellion against that trauma. (and something similar for the Exarch)

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

[Keltest]

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

Because A: Durkon didn't know, and B: as is the case with most prophecies, the efforts to thwart it actually enabled it to come true. A prophecy that doesn't occur isn't delayed, its just wrong.

[Basement Cat]

You see, it's a very simple and pathetic story. I helped build a floating city running completely on nuclear power. People worked, played, and went to school there. Life was good. Then one day, one reactor went boom and now no one wants to live there for some reason.

Can you believe these people?The ingratitude is mind boggling. Why, they might develop super powers but do they appreciate that? Doesn't seem so. :smallwink:

[Quibblicious]

Now I'm wondering if that apprentice bard is lawful, and if the process of becoming a (decent) bard inherently involves developing ways of thinking that lead one to be non-lawful.

Creativity is inherently chaotic.

Q

[pendell]

(Rich Burley is kind of laying it on thick if you know what to look for in the 1087 comic)

Monomyth / The Heroes Journey

Jungian Individuation

SQUEEEEEELLLLLL

(This is for the other OOTS readers, I am just talking out loud)

Maybe for Durkon to grow he had to reach his lowest point, he literally had to descend into hell. And in that hell he had to learn form his enemies, and from his enemies he realized he was already in a hell of his own making for he was not listening to his own desires and was always taking care of someone else. And through the experiences of his enemy Durkon grew. He learned he needed to also take care of his own desires and blah blah, and now he is a better Durkon than he was prior to his enemy. He is a happier Durkon. And now that he learned that lesson he is now at the point of the "Hero's journey" where he is going to escape from heaven and be the Greensear or the Master of Two Worlds / Domains. Durkon now has permission to freedom to live. And live he shall

And Durkon is now at the part of the story where he gets to kick all kinds of ass.

For he has conquered his enemy, by incorporating aspects of his enemy inside of himself, while remaining himself, and thus he is stronger than he used to be.

And this is the basics of Jungian Individuation, which a follower of Jung, Joseph Campbell then turned into the Hero's Journey / Monomyth / A Hero with a Thousand Faces (a true master has a 1000 tools at all times at every moment.)

Damn Rich Burlew is a good writter, he even named this comic Masters Mastering Mastery :smallbiggrin:

I think you have exactly called the way this story is going to go. I agree and applaud it.

I admit it; when we started this little journey my initial thought was "Oh joy, another side quest. Can we get on to the gate already?"

Rich has proven that initial reaction wrong; this is a story worth telling, and so far it is well-told. So I'm glad he added the extra book ...

... but I still want to see how Oona and Greyview are doing. If there were more kickstarter rewards, I'd be tempted to pay cash to see more of their story.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rynjin]

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these. Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

Considering it's just a basic outline of plot STRUCTURE, not content, you're going to be very disappointed. Being excited over it IS silly, because it's nearly omnipresent in Western storytelling (traditional Eastern tales tend to have a different structure) and "noticing" it is simply a matter of having a working knowledge of how stories work.

Being annoyed by the presence of a plot structure that is ingrained as one of the truest examples of a meme in Western culture you're ever likely to see is likewise silly, however. It's an extraordinarily broad and modular structure because it's descriptive, not prescriptive. Stories do not "conform" to this type of story structure, the "Hero's Journey" (and other variations like the Shadow's and Hermit's Journeys that detail the arc of many side characters and antagonists) are Campbell's studies on how most stories in Western society naturally develop. The way of thinking our society has, how we study in school, how we're expected to approach problem solving, etc. is what creates this story structure, not some "slavish following" of Campbell's work.

For all you decry it as a collection of "stale tropes" and "cliches" I'd be willing to put money down that a story that significantly departs from that kind of structure would at best feel very strangely written to you and on average feel like a BADLY written story because the same cultural osmosis that causes the structure to be omipresent causes any story that follows it to feel "right".


How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

That's not how prophecies work. This, all along, was the ruin that Odin saw. If Durkon had come home the next day and stayed there forever, none of this would be happening.

As with almost all prophecies this one was self-fulfilling. The attempt to stop the prophecy (or postpone it) caused the catastrophe in the first place.

You'd think people living in a world where prophecy is real would have caught on to that by now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Creativity is inherently chaotic.

Q

I disagree. I see where you are coming from, but poetry can be amazingly creative while sticking to extremely strict rules on meter, rhyme, etc. Yes, "trying something new" is closer to creativity than "retelling an existing story" [insert here rant about Hollywood frame-for-frame remakes if you must], but there is such a thing as Legal creativity.

ETA:

You'd think people living in a world where prophecy is real would have caught on to that by now.

It probably fluctuates back-and-forth like a pendulum: when people catch on to prophecies being self-fulfilling, prophecies start to depend on the receiver blithely ignoring the warning, until those become well-known, so people go back to trying to avoid the prophecy, and back to the start.

GW

[Ruck]

Because A: Durkon didn't know, and B: as is the case with most prophecies, the efforts to thwart it actually enabled it to come true. A prophecy that doesn't occur isn't delayed, its just wrong.

Especially with a Dwarf as loyal and Lawful as Durkon was. (And the high priests knew that; that's why they gave him the "human lands" mission.) They could have straight-up told him "We've received a prophecy that you will bring death and destruction next you return home; therefore, we must forbid you from ever returning home." Instead of being bitter about it, I bet Durkon might have even relished the chance to show courage in his greater duty to the Dwarven people by living out the rest of his days away from Dwarven society.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Very interesting to get a look at how the vampire is influenced by the character of its host. I also love the mood the colors in this strip give the story.

[Unoriginal]

How's it a betrayal? There was a prophecy, straight from the top, from Odin himself, that ruin would follow Durkon when he next returned home. It's already happened. What the High Priest of Thor did was a move worthy of Odin himself - an attempt to stave off that ruin for as long as possible. What could he do, really? Let Durkon go home from the temple and have the ruin happen that day? He had to come up with a plan, and fast, and "diplomatic mission to the distant humans" was what he came up with.

Betrayal, sheesh that's a strong word. He's serving his people and organization whether he knows it or not. If Durkon had gotten the high priest's letter and said, "Right! Going back home now, bye OOTS" the ruin would have happened even sooner. Ragnarok isn't something you can stop from happening, but you can put it as far into the future as possible.

They literally threw him out of the gate into the cold (where he could have frozen to death), without even allowing his mother to say goodbye.

[Ironsmith]

Ah, but I think it suggests the opposite. Darkon just used the same phrasing and philosophy as someone in the memory. He is being actively influenced by what Durkon dredges up.

I have to respectfully disagree on this point. He follows the letter of what was said, but obviously says it in a completely different context. See, the way Squeaky said "she wouldn't have anything to learn from me" was as a self-deprecating joke... Squeaky's implying that if his apprentice had any skill at all (that is to say, bare-minimum skill), there would be nothing he could teach her, because she would be better than him.

Darkon uses the phrase much less ironically, though... he's using it to imply mastery, as opposed to as a form of good-natured, light ribbing. He's adopting mannerisms and phraseology that Durkon would use, without taking any of the spirit of what's being said.

Plus, he and the Exarch are both clearly not anywhere near as self-aware as they would like to think they are: the Exarch seems to think he's a follower (despite his host being more definitively chaotic) and Darkon is a leader (despite his host being less assertive than a dire doormat), even further exemplified by the fact that the Exarch is quicker to respond to everything.

[Unoriginal]

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these.

The Hero's Journey is not a set of arbitrary assumptions, nor is it a bunch of rules and even less something you have to "slavishly follow".

It is simply a vague pattern/structure you can see in plenty of different narratives



[Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

So you're saying you are going to stop reading the Order of the Stick?

Not saying you should, but, shocking news, OotS can be said it follows the Hero's Journey.

DHUN DHUN DHUN

[Jasdoif]

Creativity is inherently chaotic.Structure is what elevates the creative above the meaninglessly random, though.

[Shining Wrath]

The High Priest of Thor, now deceased, who threw Durkon out into the snow was a colossal jerk who panicked over a prophecy capable of multiple interpretations, and thereby screwed the pooch deep, wide, hard, and thoroughly.

If in the hereafter Durkon gets to kick that guy repeatedly in the crotch it will be fitting revenge. "'Tis Thorsday eve, so here I am again - BOOT!".

But killing every dwarf alive and delivering their souls to Hel is, if you'll pardon the expression, overkill.

EDIT:

Just about every creative process does follow some rules. For example, movies are designed to be shown on a screen of a certain size. Music has certain conventions, which are different for a symphony orchestra and a country-western band. I could go on, but you get my drift; the thing that is usually interesting is seeing what can be done within the strictures of a convention, not having no conventions whatsoever.

[pendell]

They literally threw him out of the gate into the cold (where he could have frozen to death), without even allowing his mother to say goodbye.

That could definitely have been handled better.

If were the HP, I'd have taken Durkon aside and explained that due to prophecy he had to leave for an indefinite amount of time, and returning too early from it could bring disaster on the dwarven people.

Then give him a little time -- a few days or so -- to say goodbye to his family and wrap up his affairs. Give him something to remember them buy and some spending money. Tell him that it is for their safety he is going away, and it may very well be forever. He is giving up his life to save theirs.

It probably wouldn't have made much difference -- Durkon would still have done essentially the same things he did and wound up with Roy -- but maybe a little bit of kindness would be useful at some point. Besides which, it was extremely cruel to just throw him out into the snow.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Unoriginal]

I have to respectfully disagree on this point. He follows the letter of what was said, but obviously says it in a completely different context. See, the way Squeaky said "she wouldn't have anything to learn from me" was as a self-deprecating joke... Squeaky's implying that if his apprentice had any skill at all (that is to say, bare-minimum skill), there would be nothing he could teach her, because she would be better than him.

Darkon uses the phrase much less ironically, though... he's using it to imply mastery, as opposed to as a form of good-natured, light ribbing. He's adopting mannerisms and phraseology that Durkon would use, without taking any of the spirit of what's being said.


Or it could be that both Squeaky and the vampire are using the sentence to imply they are better at the task than the person they're talking about, but that this person can/could have surpassed them with some work. Squeaky's using this as a small, good-natured jab coupled with self-derision, as you said, but the vampire is also basically saying "man, if Durkon had been a bit less of a devoted good guy and had acted on his dark desires, I would have no reason or way to exist", so while the vampire is being way more nasty, he's still using the quote in the spirit it was meant.



Plus, he and the Exarch are both clearly not anywhere near as self-aware as they would like to think they are: the Exarch seems to think he's a follower (despite his host being more definitively chaotic) and Darkon is a leader (despite his host being less assertive than a dire doormat), even further exemplified by the fact that the Exarch is quicker to respond to everything.

Err, I think you've misinterpreted something, because the two vampires are talking about how they are different from their hosts. Vampire!Exarch is a follower (unlike his host) while Vampire!Durkon is a leader (unlike his host), and both are self-aware about that.

[DeliaP]

That's not how prophecies work. This, all along, was the ruin that Odin saw. If Durkon had come home the next day and stayed there forever, none of this would be happening.

As with almost all prophecies this one was self-fulfilling. The attempt to stop the prophecy (or postpone it) caused the catastrophe in the first place.

You'd think people living in a world where prophecy is real would have caught on to that by now.




It probably fluctuates back-and-forth like a pendulum: when people catch on to prophecies being self-fulfilling, prophecies start to depend on the receiver blithely ignoring the warning, until those become well-known, so people go back to trying to avoid the prophecy, and back to the start.

GW

But of course, the prophecies still come true regardless. So what do you do if you live in a world in which prophecies are true, and you go and get yourself a bad one?

The obvious trick is you try to find an way of interpreting the prophecy so you can make it come true in the way you want it.... Hurak should have just sent Durkon out to buy a couple of unusually named hamsters for the community.

[Lord Raziere]

I dunno, this comic seems to point to the exact opposite of them being antithesises unlike what they claim. the "follower" vampire is being awfully bossy to that door for not doing its job. while he is the only one of the group being all shouty and excited, so he still is being the nail sticking out while the other two just follow V-Durkon's orders quietly.

while Vampire Durkon is not technically a leader.....just a follower of Hel. the first follower, but a follower nonetheless. he still just a supporter, only this time of Hel. how is this actually fulfilling any of his desires? all he is doing is fulfilling Hel's desires and believing thats his own are being fulfilled through her.

so nice try, but they seem to demonstrate anything but being antihesises. :smallamused:

[Ironsmith]

I dunno, this comic seems to point to the exact opposite of them being antithesises unlike what they claim. the "follower" vampire is being awfully bossy to that door for not doing its job. while he is the only one of the group being all shouty and excited, so he still is being the nail sticking out while the other two just follow V-Durkon's orders quietly.

while Vampire Durkon is not technically a leader.....just a follower of Hel. the first follower, but a follower nonetheless. he still just a supporter, only this time of Hel. how is this actually fulfilling any of his desires? all he is doing is fulfilling Hel's desires and believing thats his own are being fulfilled through her.

so nice try, but they seem to demonstrate anything but being antihesises. :smallamused:

Further underscored by the fact that it's the Exarch who proposes this view and Darkon who finds himself agreeing, rather than the other way around (basically, the Exarch still leading the conversation with Darkon following).

[Lord Raziere]

Further underscored by the fact that it's the Exarch who proposes this view and Darkon who finds himself agreeing, rather than the other way around (basically, the Exarch still leading the conversation with Darkon following).

Exactly.

the vampires are not really their antithesises, they just think they are because they hate the people they come from, see their flaws through their lens and try to form an identity separate from that and end up overcompensating without realizing that they are just doing the same things their hosts did, just in different ways.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just about every creative process does follow some rules.

Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There are many creative processes who have no rules (free jazz, free verse) or whose authors ignore or break the rules they feel are restricting their creativity (E.E. Cummings springs to mind, and through him I found these others in this list (https://qwiklit.com/2014/03/05/top-10-authors-who-ignored-the-basic-rules-of-punctuation/)).

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There are many creative processes who have no rules (free jazz, free verse)So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

[JumboWheat01]

Aww... I was hoping for more architectural scolding. It was hilarious.

[DaggerPen]

Huh, further confirmation of the idea that vampire souls are made as a dark mirror their host's insecurities and regrets. That whole "Then he wouldn't have anything to learn from me" line is particularly interesting. Further supports the theory for me that Durkon can defeat the vampire by growing as a person - and perhaps influencing Durkon*'s views as well.

[Ramza00]

Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:

"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)

Ship of Theseus Paradox / Philosophical Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[Shoelessgdowar]

But of course, the prophecies still come true regardless. So what do you do if you live in a world in which prophecies are true, and you go and get yourself a bad one?

The obvious trick is you try to find an way of interpreting the prophecy so you can make it come true in the way you want it.... Hurak should have just sent Durkon out to buy a couple of unusually named hamsters for the community.

Now, if Roy would just be smart enough to give Belkar a Dagger named 'His Last Breath, Ever', so the prophecy can be fulfilled and people can finally get the short jokes and meta jokes.


So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

The Artist. Some of the best songs are created when artists change things up from the normal, by using new ideas or by including unconventional instrument choices.


Aww... I was hoping for more architectural scolding. It was hilarious.

Yeah, I was being floored by them. A few more passages about Gonetor beating his head against tbe wall would have been adoorable. I think they would have ben key to unlocking some insights through a peephole into his inner sanctums.

[Chei]

Huh, further confirmation of the idea that vampire souls are made as a dark mirror their host's insecurities and regrets. That whole "Then he wouldn't have anything to learn from me" line is particularly interesting. Further supports the theory for me that Durkon can defeat the vampire by growing as a person - and perhaps influencing Durkon*'s views as well.

Yeah, that line was weird, in the sense that the vampire seems to think that Durkon learning anything will ever be relevant again. To the vampire, Durkon's discrete consciousness should be dead and there should be no point in him learning anything further. To phrase it like that also suggests that the vampire is actually trying to teach him something. It's a pretty heavy line all around; I can't wait to see what comes of it.

[Grytorm]

Also, for why there was this memory in the comic (someone asked about it), I'm pretty certain it is a continuation of the previous page.

[Alex Warlorn]

"Worship rocks" he says. Reminds me of the jackass attitude that lot of people show the Southern Gods. I feel sorry for the Earth Elemental Cult, being exterminated just for Hel's scheme. Who even grieves for them?

[druid91]

Well, that was a fairly revelatory strip. To hear Exarch explain it, he seems to be antagonized by his host's memories. I'm actually not a D&D player, so I don't quite know the rules governing vampires in the setting. Can host souls exert deep influence on the vampiric spirit's actions, or is this more of a one-off situation with Exarch? For that matter, is this just an odd turn of phrase on his part?

At least in official D&D it's less "An evil spirit possesses you." and more "Your worldview drastically shifts on account of your body being remade into a predatory undead monstrosity, who's very existence is powered by a cosmic force opposed to living things."

Living things like people are powered by Positive Energy from the Positive Energy Plane. Undead are powered by Negative Energy. From the Negative Energy Plane.

Dead things aren't powered by anything.

[mouser9169]

If Durkon and Gontor are "hosts", that makes the vampires "guests" or "parasites", depending on the sense of the word "host" used.



You could argue for either, or even both. We could refer to the vampires as "unwelcome guests" instead of things like "Durkula" and "Gonetor".


Symbiote is another good word. I'm thinking of Venom, from the Spider-Verse. Incidentally, I'm reading what looks to be a good run on Marvel Unlimited now, when Venom has finally taken a host strong enough to control him...

[RolkFlameraven]

Symbiote is another good word. I'm thinking of Venom, from the Spider-Verse. Incidentally, I'm reading what looks to be a good run on Marvel Unlimited now, when Venom has finally taken a host strong enough to control him...

Flash's run with the thing?

[The MunchKING]

Symbiote is another good word. I'm thinking of Venom, from the Spider-Verse. Incidentally, I'm reading what looks to be a good run on Marvel Unlimited now, when Venom has finally taken a host strong enough to control him...

It's only symbiotic if both sides profit from it. If one side only loses from the deal (like Durkon in this instance), the relation ship is not symbiotic, but parasitic.

[Goblin_Priest]

Interesting to get a new look at some of the dynamic between the vampires. Exarch seems happy to follow, but maybe the others are less so?

I'm confused. Is the Exarch a thrall or free-willed? I was assuming vampires didn't get a fully-fledged negative energy "soul" until they gained their independence, given the stark personality change that happens then.

[Finagle]

Because A: Durkon didn't know, and B: as is the case with most prophecies, the efforts to thwart it actually enabled it to come true. A prophecy that doesn't occur isn't delayed, its just wrong.


That's not how prophecies work. This, all along, was the ruin that Odin saw. If Durkon had come home the next day and stayed there forever, none of this would be happening.

Huh? The prophecy came straight from Odin. It was going to happen. It can't possibly be wrong. That's not how prophecies work. It could either happen that day when Durkon went home, or they could come up with a hasty plan to try and stave off disaster. It's what Odin does on his throne every day with his power of foresight that he traded one of his eyes for. Did nobody pick up on that subtext? Ragnarok?

It wasn't the high priest of Thor's doing that caused the prophecy. It's what caused it to come in this particular form, but at least Dwarven society got 20 extra years.

You think OOTS is going to stave off the destruction? Nope, it's going to happen no matter what, even if they save the rest of the world from the Snarl. Prophecy. Straight from the top.


The way of thinking our society has, how we study in school, how we're expected to approach problem solving, etc. is what creates this story structure

I've got an idea! Let's make some new stories.

Nah, let's make part 6 of some superhero drek. Well at least now I know why people keep buying tickets for those. It seems you people actually like watching the same story over and over.


I'd be willing to put money down that a story that significantly departs from that kind of structure would at best feel very strangely written to you and on average feel like a BADLY written story because the same cultural osmosis that causes the structure to be omipresent causes any story that follows it to feel "right".

I like stories to feel "new". There is no "right" and "wrong" in stories. They are completely fictional and can be about whatever the hell we want them to be. It's always a groaner when I find out the story is just a retread of what's been done a thousand times before. Moreover the whole "Western Culture" thing is overdone, let's let some other cultures shine for a while and stop hogging the spotlight.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, for why there was this memory in the comic (someone asked about it), I'm pretty certain it is a continuation of the previous page.

It was triggered by the vampire calling Durkon "Master."

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Thanks to everyone for explaining how D&D vampires work! This filthy casual has learned some new things today :smallsmile:

[8BitNinja]

So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

Free jazz is jazzy.

[SaintRidley]

So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

Free jazz is actually pleasant to listen to.

[White Blade]

I think that most people are overthinking the Thrall question. Thrall!Durkon was a newborn baby when he was a thing, likely acting out his master's wishes in a straightforward manner. After being free, he defaulted to behaving exactly like his host while he absorbed his memories. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the difference between Durkula and Gonetor was a developmental one and not a categorical one.

[Keltest]

Huh? The prophecy came straight from Odin. It was going to happen. It can't possibly be wrong. That's not how prophecies work. It could either happen that day when Durkon went home, or they could come up with a hasty plan to try and stave off disaster. It's what Odin does on his throne every day with his power of foresight that he traded one of his eyes for. Did nobody pick up on that subtext? Ragnarok?

It wasn't the high priest of Thor's doing that caused the prophecy. It's what caused it to come in this particular form, but at least Dwarven society got 20 extra years.

You think OOTS is going to stave off the destruction? Nope, it's going to happen no matter what, even if they save the rest of the world from the Snarl. Prophecy. Straight from the top.


I think you are assigning Odin a degree of omniscience and omnipotence he doesn't actually possess. As I said, if the prophecy doesn't come true, then its just wrong. And as we have seen, the gods in the stickverse can be so very, very wrong.

[Snails]

Creativity is inherently chaotic.


Without structure, originality too easily devolves into indecipherable noise. It is structure itself that is the most effective vehicle for highlighting the new.

So creativity worth remembering is always the melding of chaos with order.

[Malfarian]

Ok is there a "point" to the memory Durkon had there? I'm not getting the point of this strip, but I REALLY want to.

[Snails]

Ok is there a "point" to the memory Durkon had there? I'm not getting the point of this strip, but I REALLY want to.

My guess is it is to introduce a cast of characters, who will either be dramatically killed or appear in more important memory scenes. Or both.

[XXSwagmaster420]

It's unlikely that the host can directly fight for control, and even less likely that certain sorts of souls would be especially adept at such a task. Still, older vampires like Malak do seem to consider their vampire state to be a continuation of their mortal state. Whether that's because the vampire soul and the host soul eventually merge or because someone with all your memories, experiences, and outlooks would be hard to distinguish from you is a largely academic question.

Given the comment about distinct consciousness, it seems likely it's a merging thing.

[GAAD]

Free jazz is actually pleasant to listen to.

Oh, them's FIGHTIN words. :smalltongue:

[LadyEowyn]

Ok is there a "point" to the memory Durkon had there? I'm not getting the point of this strip, but I REALLY want to.

So far as I can tell, the "point" is not the memory itself, but the fact that Durkon appears able to influence the vampire, based on the phrase in the memory being used shortly after by the vampire ("If s/he were already good at...I wouldn't have anything to teach him/her"). It took me a few reads through to notice it.

I highly doubt the bard character herself has any importance.

[Reddish Mage]

I think you are assigning Odin a degree of omniscience and omnipotence he doesn't actually possess. As I said, if the prophecy doesn't come true, then its just wrong. And as we have seen, the gods in the stickverse can be so very, very wrong.

We haven't seen prophecy be wrong however. Obscure, and coming true in totally unpredictable and irrelevant ways? Sure.

For example the prophecy is that "death and destruction" follows Durkon when he returns. Also Durkon will return poshumously.

Turns out Durkon is now deceased, but Durkon has returned, and that his vampire body has access to the "death" and "destruction" domains. Also, the vampires have caused quite a bit of both already.

Whether world-destruction comes along is anyone's guess. The prophecy was already fulfilled many ways. Certainly, Ragnorok could be a reasonable thing to reference by prophecy, but the Giant has already did an enormous fake out by having Durkula convince us he was Durkon, NOW prophecy that only has a vague mythic connection to world-destruction? That's not a commitment.

[Shoelessgdowar]

We haven't seen prophecy be wrong however. Obscure, and coming true in totally unpredictable and irrelevant ways? Sure.

For example the prophecy is that "death and destruction" follows Durkon when he returns. Also Durkon will return poshumously.

Actually even "Posthumously" hasn't been right yet. We have yet to see a prophecy right. We've seen scrying correctly, we've see lousy attempts to make the narrative fit the incorrect prophecies, but not a single prophecy has actually been correct yet.

No Gift Horse ever knocked, the polar opposite happened.
Belkar still hasn't caused The Death of anyone on his list.
Durkon isn't Dead until he makes it to Valhalla.
V spoke 3 words, not 4, to no one, at the wrong time, for several of the right reasons, and didn't attain complete and ultimate arcane power (complete and ultimate would not have faultered against Xykon).
Girard's Gate was the wrong Gate, Soon's Gate was the correct answer.

[The MunchKING]

Actually even "Posthumously" hasn't been right yet. We have yet to see a prophecy right. We've seen scrying correctly, we've see lousy attempts to make the narrative fit the incorrect prophecies, but not a single prophecy has actually been correct yet.

No Gift Horse ever knocked, the polar opposite happened.
Belkar still hasn't caused The Death of anyone on his list.

... Is this trolling? He stabbed the Oracle right there in plain sight!


Durkon isn't Dead until he makes it to Valhalla.

So none of Tarquin's soldiers or Nale or anyone are dead because they didn't wind up in Valhalla?


V spoke 3 words, not 4, to no one, at the wrong time, for several of the right reasons, and didn't attain complete and ultimate arcane power (complete and ultimate would not have faultered against Xykon).

The point was All the Arcane Power in the World wouldn't do you any good if used unintelligently.


Girard's Gate was the wrong Gate, Soon's Gate was the correct answer.

He didn't ASK about Soon though. The Oracle knew that and explicitly tried to bait him into asking about all the Gates. But OF the choice between "Kraagnor's gate and Girard's Gate" Giurard's Gate was the correct answer.

[Peelee]

Actually even "Posthumously" hasn't been right yet. We have yet to see a prophecy right. We've seen scrying correctly, we've see lousy attempts to make the narrative fit the incorrect prophecies, but not a single prophecy has actually been correct yet.

No Gift Horse ever knocked, the polar opposite happened.
Belkar still hasn't caused The Death of anyone on his list.
Durkon isn't Dead until he makes it to Valhalla.
V spoke 3 words, not 4, to no one, at the wrong time, for several of the right reasons, and didn't attain complete and ultimate arcane power (complete and ultimate would not have faultered against Xykon).
Girard's Gate was the wrong Gate, Soon's Gate was the correct answer.

2/10. Strong start, but completely falls apart by the end.

[goodpeople25]

Huh? The prophecy came straight from Odin. It was going to happen. It can't possibly be wrong. That's not how prophecies work. It could either happen that day when Durkon went home, or they could come up with a hasty plan to try and stave off disaster. It's what Odin does on his throne every day with his power of foresight that he traded one of his eyes for. Did nobody pick up on that subtext? Ragnarok?

It wasn't the high priest of Thor's doing that caused the prophecy. It's what caused it to come in this particular form, but at least Dwarven society got 20 extra years.

You think OOTS is going to stave off the destruction? Nope, it's going to happen no matter what, even if they save the rest of the world from the Snarl. Prophecy. Straight from the top.

That's a quite a lot of weight put on assumptions about how prophecies work, (I don't think you're going to shake off the idea of the self fulfilling prophecy anymore than the hero's journey) how Odin's foresight works and his modus operandi (plus backstory that I don't think is given in the online comic. Is it in the books anyone? Of this comic not mythology) and possibly the extent of the prophecy (You seem set on a seemingly wider reaching result by quite a bit more than the minimum which could have possibly already occurred but I'm not sure where exactly that result lies. Though with hints of not being grounded solely in the comic. Which isn't on it's own a bad thing, just don't see much support for it here) and anything else I can't see.

Specifically on prophecies, this is what is happening now so what could of happened is purely hypothetical (at the very least to most characters involved) and Hurak would still be on the line for it if his motivations didn't match up. Also while I don't know/remember the exact words given for the prophecy I think there's possible room for the prophecies results to happen in a larger time frame after fulfilment with different results for better or worse if what happened at the the time the prophecy was given was different. To start, a "support beam" like Durkon can still affect events quite a bit (and imo has) with his presence and support and I don't see how a lack of actions/events taking place with consequences down the line couldn't fullfil the prophecy, though of course my practical experience with prophecies are (un)fortunately nil.

Separately, those are definitely fighting words SaintRidley regardless if I take you up on them or the sentiment behind them, I think Durkon's* comment on Durkon learning something from him works regardless of what will happen to the soul inside him, and yay back to this specific subject of the oracle that is always thrilling, new and achieves results. only that last one is supposed to be sarcastic, hopefully it didn't bleed into the rest or viceverca

Edit: And general statement of being a pre-sleep wall of text involving readability and making any bit of sense and so on.

[factotum]

... Is this trolling? He stabbed the Oracle right there in plain sight!

Maybe he's using that strange logic that goes, "The Oracle died, but he got better, so that means he never actually died in the first place"?

[Shoelessgdowar]

... Is this trolling? He stabbed the Oracle right there in plain sight!


He did not. The Oracle had already proved the prophecy was a lie by his multiple shoehorn narrative attempts, then committed assisted suicide with Belkar's Dagger, then ceased to be dead. Belker didn't ask if he was going to cause a death of those. In a World where restoring life is a possibility, A Death and The Death of someone are highly important distinctions, and that is if we dismiss the whole thing was nothing more than The Oracle both proving prophecies are fake (if his death was the one in the Prophecy, he would not have even tried to get out if it, he would have enjoyed his revenge, and known he was dead without the backpedalling, unless he knew he could possibly get out of it because he knows prophecies are fake, his shoehorn attempts prove unequivocally he was hedging his bets knowing prophecies can be defied) and exploiting a loophole in Belkar's Mark of Justice to screw with the Order and Belkar especially.




So none of Tarquin's soldiers or Nale or anyone are dead because they didn't wind up in Valhalla?
And you ask if I'm Trolling? Talk about the Pot calling the Crystal Goblet Black.
They went to their appropriate afterlifes, even Malack now has. Death is death once the soul has 100% moved on and is no longer in the body. Durkon's body isn't dead, and he is still in it. Until then, they're temporary cessations of lifesigns. See also above, Oracle is alive, Belkar didn't cause The Death of the Oracle, the Oracle only caused Belkar's Mark to trigger by ATTEMPTED Suicide (cause it failed to make him permanently deceased)




The point was All the Arcane Power in the World wouldn't do you any good if used unintelligently.
Nope, point was Complete And Total Arcane Power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), complete and Total is All, not a lot. Also, the terms were The Right 4 words (I must succeed is 3, how right or wrong they were is debatable), to the right being (V said them to no one at all, no one by definition is no being, which can not be right), at the right time (Your Family in peril, desperation set in, lacking proper mental rest is far from the right time for anything, especially making coherent decisions), for ALL the Wrong Reasons (if a single reason is right, then it is not ALL the wrong reasons, and for it to be ALL the Wrong Reasons, there can not be a single Wrong reason missing. Saving Family is a Right Reason, ergo not ALL the rrasons were Wrong... Meanwhile, killing the Order, Freeing the Snarl, Destroying the Planet, and Proving 1 + 1 = Broccoli were not among the reasons, therefore not ALL the Wrong Reasons were factors).




He didn't ASK about Soon though. The Oracle knew that and explicitly tried to bait him into asking about all the Gates. But OF the choice between "Kraagnor's gate and Girard's Gate" Giurard's Gate was the correct answer.

For the answer to be correct, it had to be correct. A possible correct answer would be "Soon's gate, you stupid pedantic human, don't waste both your rime and mine with trying to outsmart truth."
To tout a reputation of always being 100% correct, you have to be 100% correct everytime, not sort of correct from a point of view.

------------------

Here, let me help you. The accurate answers shpuld have been.

"Imprisoned in your own mind by an idiotic Hel Worshipping Vampire Spirit bent on total destruction and death of this world"

"You won't. You will briefly taste a little sliver when you say 3 words to no one in particular at one of the worst times possible for a variety of reasons."

"When a Trojan Horse is about to destroy your chance at love, you will overcome your issue, and open yourself to new experiences and a brighter outlook on life."

"For a Giant in a Playground who will happily live up to his first name, it will."

"No. You will try and fail miserably, but in doing so you will have your own kind of metamorphosis, the you that you are now ceasing to be and a better you replacing the old you, but do feel free to try next time, after all, it is what will happen."

"Neither, you overthinking imbecile. My hob is to give you the correct answer, whether you try to screw up the question or not. Xykon is going to Soon's gate. Sure, I could sidequest you by falling for your idiocy, sending you to the Gerard's place, but my job is to be 100% correct, not sort of correct within the limited parameters you try to limit the answer to. Have fun jumping to stupid conclusions."

"Talk like a human instead of cawing, you'll get better lines, be remembered for some great quotes, get on t-shirts and holiday ornaments, and be considered far more than a side character."

See, those are the prophecies if they were the right ones, instead of the lousy wrong ones we were given.

[hroþila]

All your answers are completely wrong, as usual, so I'll just address one of them, to spare my own sanity:

V wasn't holding complete and total arcane power anymore when they faced Xykon. V had already lost 1/3 of it. "I... I must succeed" is four words, even if it's only three different words. The right being was V. The right time was when the opportunity to get ultimate arcane power presented itself. V's wrong reason to accept the deal was that V wanted the power, and "all the wrong reasons" is idiomatic.

[Quebbster]

My take on things:
"Posthumously" means "after death". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) Durkon died in strip 877 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html), so Everything since then has been "after his Death". Sure, one might argue Durkon is not "dead as a doornail" as he thought he would be, but that doesn't make the Oracle's answer wrong.
Vaarsuvius did say four Words: "I... I must succeed." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Also, it's Worth noting that V's question to the Oracle was formulated badly (much like Roy's): Instead of asking "Will I achieve complete and total arcane Power?", V was cocky, assumed it would happen, and asked how it would come to pass. I guess Darth V was as high as the elf's Power levels will ever go.
According to Haley herself, the answer she got from the Oracle wasn't useless. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)
Roy formulated his question badly. The Oracle even tried to Point it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and Roy realized his own mistake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html). Not the Oracle's fault.
And Belkar... see Durkon. He did cause the Death of the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), no question about that. The Oracle got better, sure, but he did go to his appointed afterlife for a Little while just like Jirix. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)

If you want to play "It doesn't Count, because...", by all means do so. Personally, I appreciate the amount of planning and foreshadowing that has gone into this comic.

[Shoelessgdowar]

My take on things:
"Posthumously" means "after death". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) Durkon died in strip 877 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html), so Everything since then has been "after his Death". Sure, one might argue Durkon is not "dead as a doornail" as he thought he would be, but that doesn't make the Oracle's answer wrong.
Vaarsuvius did say four Words: "I... I must succeed." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Also, it's Worth noting that V's question to the Oracle was formulated badly (much like Roy's): Instead of asking "Will I achieve complete and total arcane Power?", V was cocky, assumed it would happen, and asked how it would come to pass. I guess Darth V was as high as the elf's Power levels will ever go.
According to Haley herself, the answer she got from the Oracle wasn't useless. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)
Roy formulated his question badly. The Oracle even tried to Point it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and Roy realized his own mistake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html). Not the Oracle's fault.
And Belkar... see Durkon. He did cause the Death of the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html), no question about that. The Oracle got better, sure, but he did go to his appointed afterlife for a Little while just like Jirix. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)

If you want to play "It doesn't Count, because...", by all means do so. Personally, I appreciate the amount of planning and foreshadowing that has gone into this comic.

I...I is one word... It is called stuttering. I = 1, must = 2, suceed = 3.

And... "You won't." is an answer. The question wasn't "How will I come close to Complete and Total Arcane Power?"

The Death is it. V caused The Death of Girard's Gate's protectors. Miko caused The Death of Lord Shojo. A Death is not The Death. Belkar did not cause The Death of anyone on his list.

------------------

The Prophecies must be maintained as 'Correct' for now, until the final comics have been printed, and all the fallacies in all the Prophecies can be revealed at once, otherwise is becomes obvious sooner we should let no prophecy hold any weight.

[Unoriginal]

He did not. The Oracle had already proved the prophecy was a lie by his multiple shoehorn narrative attempts

He did not. He provided interpretations of the prophecy's exact words in a way that'd angered Belkar, and so fulfilled the prophecy.

Belkar is also one of the actors in the events that caused the death of Miko, btw, so the prophecy would still have been right.


then committed assisted suicide with Belkar's Dagger, then ceased to be dead.

Which mean he died, thus fulfilling the prophecy.


Belker didn't ask if he was going to cause a death of those.

Yes he did.



In a World where restoring life is a possibility, A Death and The Death of someone are highly important distinctions,

No it's not.



and that is if we dismiss the whole thing was nothing more than The Oracle both proving prophecies are fake

They were proved to be right, if convoluted and relying on exact words, multiple time.


if his death was the one in the Prophecy, he would not have even tried to get out if it,


He didn't get out of the prophecy, he got out of the death. Nothing in the prophecy said "and the person you'll cause the death will stay death.



his shoehorn attempts prove unequivocally he was hedging his bets knowing prophecies can be defied) and exploiting a loophole in Belkar's Mark of Justice to screw with the Order and Belkar especially.

He didn't defy the prophecy.



Death is death once the soul has 100% moved on and is no longer in the body.

No, death is death once the body isn't animated by Positive Energy anymore.




Nope, point was Complete And Total Arcane Power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), complete and Total is All, not a lot.

V had access to complete Conjuration, complete Necromancy and complete Sorcery, which totally completed the parts of Arcane Power V was missing.



to the right being (V said them to no one at all, no one by definition is no being, which can not be right)


He said it to himself.



(if a single reason is right, then it is not ALL the wrong reasons, and for it to be ALL the Wrong Reasons, there can not be a single Wrong reason missing. Saving Family is a Right Reason, ergo not ALL the rrasons were Wrong...

The only reason why V accepted the deal was because of ego. V could have obtained the same or better results otherwise, and V knew that, but the deciding factor, or "reason" was V's ego.



For the answer to be correct, it had to be correct. A possible correct answer would be "Soon's gate, you stupid pedantic human, don't waste both your rime and mine with trying to outsmart truth."
To tout a reputation of always being 100% correct, you have to be 100% correct everytime, not sort of correct from a point of view.

The answer was correct given how the question was asked. If someone ask you "between the store and the park, which one are you going first this afternoon?", you have no reason to say "I'm going to the pool this morning".




"Neither, you overthinking imbecile. My hob is to give you the correct answer, whether you try to screw up the question or not. Xykon is going to Soon's gate. Sure, I could sidequest you by falling for your idiocy, sending you to the Gerard's place, but my job is to be 100% correct, not sort of correct within the limited parameters you try to limit the answer to. Have fun jumping to stupid conclusions."

You realize that this is a guy who answered "in his throne room" when asked "where is Xykon?", right. The Oracle has to answer the question as asked, with the added problem being that anything not said in prophecy mode will be forgotten once the people leave the valley.



See, those are the prophecies if they were the right ones, instead of the lousy wrong ones we were given.

You seem to have an hard time getting the concept of "exact words twist", and you also seem to twist the events in the comic and the definitions of words so that it fits your view that the prophecies were wrong.

[Quebbster]

V had access to complete Conjuration, complete Necromancy and complete Sorcery, which totally completed the parts of Arcane Power V was missing.
Not being read up on D&D minutiae, I had completely missed this aspect. That's pretty cool.

[Kardwill]

Ah, but I think it suggests the opposite. Darkon just used the same phrasing and philosophy as someone in the memory. He is being actively influenced by what Durkon dredges up.

Oooooh, I didn't notice he took the bard's sentence. Nice!

Funny thing is, he probably chose to imitate the bard because what he said sounded cool and witty, but he didn't realise that it is really self-deprecating humor (because for him, no "master" would belittle himself in front of others, right?)
He's using Durkon's memory to look like he's got repartee, but he's really not good at picking up nuances in social interactions when they do not conform with his worldview.

[Yendor]

In the commentary to Don't Split the Party, Rich explains at great length exactly how Vaarsuvius' prophecy was fulfilled. And the extra commentary in the PDF version of War and XPs says that every official prophecy from 331, except Elan's, has been fulfilled at this point.

You can keep pretending the prophecies aren't real, but you're wrong. And if you're expecting the story to back you up on this, you're wasting your time.

[Wristlet Eater]

Complete And Total Arcane Power

Not really related, but when I saw this I had flashbacks to something I once saw on the 3.5 forum.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I...I is one word... It is called stuttering. I = 1, must = 2, suceed = 3.
The author disagrees with you. He considers them 4 words. Therefore, in OotS-verse, they are four words, said by V for all the wrong reasons. After which they were given absolute power. Which they then proceeded to waste. But they did obtain it. Equally, your definition of "dead" and "posthumously" doesn't seem to match the definitions used by the author, and therefore by extension by the OotS-verse people.

You are grasping at straws to make your case - literally arguing what words 'ought' to mean or what you define them as to try and argue the prophecies aren't fulfilled. But it is an empty argument, because you don't get to define those words in-comic; the author does, as seen in the title of 899.

Grey Wolf

[Quebbster]

If I have two apples, one banana and one orange, how many fruits do I have? Three or four?

[hroþila]

Not to keep replying to Shoelessgdowar, but I think that, generally speaking, an elipsis in this comic tends to signify a longer break than would be expected from stuttering. "I... I must succeed" vs "I-I must succeed". Could be completely wrong because of course I haven't bothered reading through the archives to check, but that's my impression.

[goto124]

If I have two apples, one banana and one orange, how many fruits do I have? Three or four?

Should've thrown in some tomatoes there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If I have two apples, one banana and one orange, how many fruits do I have? Three or four?

The problem with this analogy is that typo-Belkar-screen name will either argue you have three types of fruit, or that V's words are actually one apple shown twice, a banana and an orange.

GW

[Quebbster]

The problem with this analogy is that typo-Belkar-screen name will either argue you have three types of fruit, or that V's words are actually one apple shown twice, a banana and an orange.

GW
Yeah, I really should disengage, but I liked that analogy a lot.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I really should disengage, but I liked that analogy a lot.

It's a good analogy, don't get me wrong.

GW

[The MunchKING]

He did not.

So you're just going to blatantly lie about what happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)?

Well I guess that answers my previous question. And in only 8 letters too. That's some efficiency.


Belker didn't ask if he was going to cause a death of those.

And yet he totally did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).


In a World where restoring life is a possibility, A Death and The Death of someone are highly important distinctions,

SHOULD BE? Maybe... ARE? Apparently not.


and that is if we dismiss the whole thing was nothing more than The Oracle both proving prophecies are fake

And what if we do not? What if we assume he knew he would die there and just wanted to wind Belkar up more?



And you ask if I'm Trolling? Talk about the Pot calling the Crystal Goblet Black.

I'm mocking your answer. It's not really trolling, if I wasn't doing it just to get a rise out of you. Besides, I'm making a point. If you accept they are dead because their souls aren't in their bodies moving it around, then you should be able to follow the basic logic that Durkon is dead because his soul isn't in his body moving it around, an evil spirit from Hel is.



They went to their appropriate afterlifes, even Malack now has.

And Durkon's afterlife is to be stuck in his body. QED, dead.



Death is death once the soul has 100% moved on and is no longer in the body. Durkon's body isn't dead, and he is still in it.

The whole "0 HP and negative CON" thing disagrees with you.


Until then, they're temporary cessations of lifesigns. See also above, Oracle is alive, Belkar didn't cause The Death of the Oracle, the Oracle only caused Belkar's Mark to trigger by ATTEMPTED Suicide (cause it failed to make him permanently deceased)

and yet the Oracle and Durkon still flatlined. Durkon hasn't had any vital signs for weeks now.




Nope, point was Complete And Total Arcane Power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), complete and Total is All, not a lot.

It was more power than anyone in the Universe ever had before or will have again. That is pretty much "Complete and Total" by any colloquial use of those words.



Also, the terms were The Right 4 words (I must succeed is 3, how right or wrong they were is debatable),

I... I must succeed is four though.


to the right being (V said them to no one at all, no one by definition is no being, which can not be right),

V said to herself to reassure of herself of the rightness of her cause.


Meanwhile, killing the Order, Freeing the Snarl, Destroying the Planet, and Proving 1 + 1 = Broccoli were not among the reasons, therefore not ALL the Wrong Reasons were factors).

Again, Colloquialisms. The Oracle isn't a lawyer and never claimed to be. He explicitly liked messing with people with his prophecies.



For the answer to be correct, it had to be correct.

No, that would be completely WRONG for the question he was asked. The correct answer to "Kraagnor's gate or Girard's Gate" is NOT Soon's Gate. On a multiple choice test, if the choices are A or B, C is automatically wrong.


Here, let me help you. The accurate answers shpuld have been.

"Imprisoned in your own mind by an idiotic Hel Worshipping Vampire Spirit bent on total destruction and death of this world"

Which is in fact post humously. He died. And he hasn't even come back to life, so you don't even get that excuse.


"You won't. You will briefly taste a little sliver when you say 3 words to no one in particular at one of the worst times possible for a variety of reasons."

Which would be boring, wrong, and wouldn't achieve his objectives.


"For a Giant in a Playground who will happily live up to his first name, it will."

Maybe not, if whiny little trolls keep picking apart every little thing in every little comic.


"No. You will try and fail miserably, but in doing so you will have your own kind of metamorphosis, the you that you are now ceasing to be and a better you replacing the old you, but do feel free to try next time, after all, it is what will happen."

Except he DID cause the death of several of those, including ACTIVELY STABBING ONE OF THEM TO DEATH.

The Oracle is totally better than you at this so far.


"Neither, you overthinking imbecile. My hob is to give you the correct answer, whether you try to screw up the question or not. Xykon is going to Soon's gate. Sure, I could sidequest you by falling for your idiocy, sending you to the Gerard's place, but my job is to be 100% correct, not sort of correct within the limited parameters you try to limit the answer to. Have fun jumping to stupid conclusions."

Except that's NOT his job. His Job is to give True, but still pointless answers to the questions asked in order to manipulate filthy bipeds for his own amusement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html). He is under no obligation to save you from your own stupidity.


"Talk like a human instead of cawing, you'll get better lines, be remembered for some great quotes, get on t-shirts and holiday ornaments, and be considered far more than a side character."

See, those are the prophecies if they were the right ones, instead of the lousy wrong ones we were given.

Except arguably "How can I be a main character" was not what Blackwing asked. Most people assumed it had to do with getting V to remember and be nicer to him.

[The MunchKING]

I...I is one word... It is called stuttering. I = 1, must = 2, suceed = 3.

Ellipses indicate a pause. It wasn't stuttering, it was reiteration.


The Death is it.

Proof of this distinction being a thing in comic? I await your evidence with baited breath.


The Prophecies must be maintained as 'Correct' for now, until the final comics have been printed, and all the fallacies in all the Prophecies can be revealed at once, otherwise is becomes obvious sooner we should let no prophecy hold any weight.

Except all the true prophecies (I.E. from prophets and Gods, I'm not trying for a tautological "No True Scotsman" answer here) we've seen have come true in a reasonably clear and unambiguous way, as you've had explained to you many times before.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except arguably "How can I be a main character" was not what Blackwing asked. Most people assumed it had to do with getting V to remember and be nicer to him.

Interesting. I assumed it was more on the lines of "How can I reduce my current stress levels?/How can I clear the rash under my wing?/What goes well with sheep eyeball stew?" or something similarly banal.

GW

[The MunchKING]

Not being read up on D&D minutiae, I had completely missed this aspect. That's pretty cool.

I didn't think about that interpretation for this argument, and I think it's pretty interesting.

Problem is, still missing out on Arcane Healing from the Bard class, as part of their non-compete clause, but certainly all the Schools are there.


Interesting. I assumed it was more on the lines of "How can I reduce my current stress levels?/How can I clear the rash under my wing?/What goes well with sheep eyeball stew?" or something similarly banal.

GW

Ginko Bilboa is generally known for two things in pop culture (AFAIK), an all natural herbal remedy for failing memory or an aphrodisiac.

[hroþila]

Ginko Bilboa is generally known for two things in pop culture (AFAIK), an all natural herbal remedy for failing memory or an aphrodisiac.
Ooh, this is going to get awkward.

[Quebbster]

I didn't think about that interpretation for this argument, and I think it's pretty interesting.

Problem is, still missing out on Arcane Healing from the Bard class, as part of their non-compete clause, but certainly all the Schools are there.
Heh. Just got a vision of an Epic level bard being trapped in one of the IFCC's domains and how it would be presented when they did their pitch.
Still, including bard magic meant one of the other schools would be missing unless the story suddenly involved four fiends, and I don't Think that would work out in practice.

Ginko Bilboa is generally known for two things in pop culture (AFAIK), an all natural herbal remedy for failing memory or an aphrodisiac.
Just had to google it. I too assumed it was a rash antidote or something - maybe I got it mixed up with Aloe Vera.

[The MunchKING]

Heh. Just got a vision of an Epic level bard being trapped in one of the IFCC's domains and how it would be presented when they did their pitch.
Still, including bard magic meant one of the other schools would be missing unless the story suddenly involved four fiends, and I don't Think that would work out in practice.

Well yeah, the point was there was non-compete clause banning healing, so they wouldn't have been able to let V have that even if they did have some Epic Evil Bards hanging around.

[Quebbster]

Well yeah, the point was there was non-compete clause banning healing, so they wouldn't have been able to let V have that even if they did have some Epic Evil Bards hanging around.

Oh shush. Don't ruin my vision of an Epic Evil Bard spirit.

[Unoriginal]

I didn't think about that interpretation for this argument, and I think it's pretty interesting.

Problem is, still missing out on Arcane Healing from the Bard class, as part of their non-compete clause, but certainly all the Schools are there.



Heh. Just got a vision of an Epic level bard being trapped in one of the IFCC's domains and how it would be presented when they did their pitch.
Still, including bard magic meant one of the other schools would be missing unless the story suddenly involved four fiends, and I don't Think that would work out in practice.


C'mon, guys, do you REALLY think that V considered/considers Bardic powers counts as Arcane?

[Goblin_Priest]

There are very few bard-only spells and I don't think any of them would have been of any interest to V.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to say that the difference between a prophecy which never comes true, and a prophecy which comes true in an unexpected way due to the hearers misunderstanding / misinterpreting the language of the prophet, is a purely semantic one.

Maybe all prophecies come true, but sometimes no one realizes it because the fulfillment is so obscure.
Maybe no prophecies come true, but sometimes people think they do because they discern fulfillment from random events.

Unless the prophecy is expressed in a language completely lacking in ambiguity and observed by omniscient and completely rational beings.

[Ruck]

"The Oracle committed assisted suicide so the prophecy doesn't count" and "Durkon isn't dead because his soul hasn't ascended to the rightful plane" are up there with "Bandi was auto-wrenched." Valiant efforts to break logic and get it to confess.

[Jasdoif]

If I have two apples, one banana and one orange, how many fruits do I have? Three or four?Hmm. Now my first thought is that you have four...but the commas around "one banana and one orange" could indicate it's an appositive and that you're describing the two apples; saying that one of the apples is banana and the other is orange. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

"The Oracle committed assisted suicide so the prophecy doesn't count" and "Durkon isn't dead because his soul hasn't ascended to the rightful plane" are up there with "Bandi was auto-wrenched." Valiant efforts to break logic and get it to confess.

And anyone finds this surprising in what Shoelessgdofwar says how, exactly? It's not like this is a new crusade he only started in this thread.

[Quebbster]

"The Oracle committed assisted suicide so the prophecy doesn't count" and "Durkon isn't dead because his soul hasn't ascended to the rightful plane" are up there with "Bandi was auto-wrenched." Valiant efforts to break logic and get it to confess.

Thanks for reminding me about the auto-wrenching. It must have been at least a week since I last thought of it.

[Kantaki]

Should've thrown in some tomatoes there.

If you put tomato in my fruit-salad I'm going to take that as pretext for raising the dead.
All of the dead.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for reminding me about the auto-wrenching. It must have been at least a week since I last thought of it.

Wait, what.

Did people seriously argue Bandana wrenched herself and I somehow missed that?

Gods and angels, it's worse than any of the already pretty bad stuff I've seen people write about that situation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did people seriously argue Bandana wrenched herself and I somehow missed that?

IIRC, the argument, such as it was, was that by leaning towards Andi, Bandana had "initiated the fight", and thus that she "had it coming" or "brought it upon herself" when she got clubbed with a wrench a few moments afterwards.

I'd find the actual posts for you, but honestly, I'd rather bathe my brain in bleach before having to do so. You can probably find it through the "auto-wrench" term, though.

GW

[Quebbster]

IIRC, the argument, such as it was, was that by leaning towards Andi, Bandana had "initiated the fight", and thus that she "had it coming" or "brought it upon herself" when she got clubbed with a wrench a few moments afterwards.

I'd find the actual posts for you, but honestly, I'd rather bathe my brain in bleach before having to do so. You can probably find it through the "auto-wrench" term, though.

GW
Don't forget that the wrenching itself was entirely a reflexive action by Andi since she was being threatened when Bandana leaned in over her. I mean look at the art! Andi has to bend backwards because Bandana is so darn agressive!

[Ruck]

As I recall, that thread got locked not long after the person making the argument explicitly said he didn't think Andi should be held responsible for her own actions. It doesn't really matter how you can rationalize your argument when its premise is so cracked.

[pendell]

As I recall, that thread got locked not long after the person making the argument explicitly said he didn't think Andi should be held responsible for her own actions. It doesn't really matter how you can rationalize your argument when its premise is so cracked.

Sounds like a Heat of Passion (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heat+of+Passion) defense. That is typically a mitigating factor, but it cannot of itself absolve a person of responsibility for their actions. For that to happen we'd have to go past mere heat of passion to argue that Andi was actually insane, out of her senses and unable to tell right from wrong, as if intoxicated. I don't think that argument would hold up based on what we've seen in the strip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chei]

Sounds like a Heat of Passion (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heat+of+Passion) defense. That is typically a mitigating factor, but it cannot of itself absolve a person of responsibility for their actions. For that to happen we'd have to go past mere heat of passion to argue that Andi was actually insane, out of her senses and unable to tell right from wrong, as if intoxicated. I don't think that argument would hold up based on what we've seen in the strip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah, I think a heat of passion defense would fly, given that a panel was dedicated to showing Andi about as angry as an immature engineer can get. Like you said, still just a mitigating factor and not something someone could use to relieve her of that responsibility.

[Quibblicious]

I disagree. I see where you are coming from, but poetry can be amazingly creative while sticking to extremely strict rules on meter, rhyme, etc. Yes, "trying something new" is closer to creativity than "retelling an existing story" [insert here rant about Hollywood frame-for-frame remakes if you must], but there is such a thing as Legal creativity.



Structure is what elevates the creative above the meaninglessly random, though.


Just about every creative process does follow some rules. For example, movies are designed to be shown on a screen of a certain size. Music has certain conventions, which are different for a symphony orchestra and a country-western band. I could go on, but you get my drift; the thing that is usually interesting is seeing what can be done within the strictures of a convention, not having no conventions whatsoever.


Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. There are many creative processes who have no rules (free jazz, free verse) or whose authors ignore or break the rules they feel are restricting their creativity (E.E. Cummings springs to mind, and through him I found these others in this list (https://qwiklit.com/2014/03/05/top-10-authors-who-ignored-the-basic-rules-of-punctuation/)).


You are all correct to some degree, but in my opinion, the chaos comes first, and is either fit to the form, or the form is rejected in favor of the chaos.

Most creative chaos is not so far reaching as to overcome the form, for the most part. It is more a case of the creator shaking the contents of the form into a new configuration within the form, kind of like those sand-between-two-pieces-of-glass moving sculptures, where you flip them over and the sand dribbles down and re-arranges into some new form within the confines of the glass.


So what distinguishes free jazz from country?

If you play jazz backwards, you don't get your truck or your dog back.


Without structure, originality too easily devolves into indecipherable noise. It is structure itself that is the most effective vehicle for highlighting the new.

So creativity worth remembering is always the melding of chaos with order.

True, which is why a lot of modern "art" is so much derivative junk -- it's all the chaos without any of the structure. Same goes for a lot of the avant garde music.

What really amazes me is how much true creativity comes out within the forms. That is the real genius to me -- to be able to apply the form but in a new and amazing way.


Oh shush. Don't ruin my vision of an Epic Evil Bard spirit.

But.. but... but...

Wait, was that three words or one word?

Q

[georgie_leech]

Uh, wasn't this sort of how those arguments kept cropping up again and again?

So, to attempt to wrench (:smallbiggrin:) this away from that particular dead horse, I wonder if this strip is implying that Durkon is deliberately influencing the vampire, who doesn't notice it as established with earlier Plates and Monster memories?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Perhaps "succeed" counts double, for having two syllables?

Additionally, false Exarch Hammerfell reminds me of Roy, with his yelling at people to get with the program ("Belkar, stop posing for heavy metal album covers and get in here").

[Kish]

"I...I must succeed" is four words. It's not ambiguous.

Yeah, I think a heat of passion defense would fly, given that a panel was dedicated to showing Andi about as angry as an immature engineer can get. Like you said, still just a mitigating factor and not something someone could use to relieve her of that responsibility.
It wouldn't fly; the prosecuting attorney would bring up her then tying her victim to the mast and gloating. A "heat of passion" defense only works if your criminal actions while in the heat of passion aren't consistent with what you do when you're calmer.

[Draconi Redfir]

Sounds like a Heat of Passion (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heat+of+Passion) defense. That is typically a mitigating factor, but it cannot of itself absolve a person of responsibility for their actions. For that to happen we'd have to go past mere heat of passion to argue that Andi was actually insane, out of her senses and unable to tell right from wrong, as if intoxicated. I don't think that argument would hold up based on what we've seen in the strip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

the term "temporary insanity" WAS used in her defence. So...? *shrugs*

[Mad Humanist]

"I...I must succeed" is four words. It's not ambiguous.

It wouldn't fly; the prosecuting attorney would bring up her then tying her victim to the mast and gloating. A "heat of passion" defense only works if your criminal actions while in the heat of passion aren't consistent with what you do when you're calmer.

I just had a thought that after the coup, Andi is going to be the IFCC;s next pawn.

[Ruck]

the term "temporary insanity" WAS used in her defence. So...? *shrugs*

Kish already pointed out why it wouldn't fly; in addition, the original argument was made that Andi "auto-reacted" to something Bandana did, when the comic quite clearly shows her stewing in anger for a panel before lashing out.

[Chei]

"I...I must succeed" is four words. It's not ambiguous.

It wouldn't fly; the prosecuting attorney would bring up her then tying her victim to the mast and gloating. A "heat of passion" defense only works if your criminal actions while in the heat of passion aren't consistent with what you do when you're calmer.

Ah, interesting.

[KorvinStarmast]

So what distinguishes free jazz from country? How they sound.
For further detail, see the music genome project that became the music streaming service Pandora. Their web site, about a decade ago, explained some of how their algorithm identify differences in musical type and structure. Worth a read.

Ship of Theseus Paradox / Philosophical Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Living things like people are powered by Positive Energy from the Positive Energy Plane. Undead are powered by Negative Energy. From the Negative Energy Plane. Dead things aren't powered by anything. But they empower plants to grow. :)

[ti'esar]

D'awww, the bad guys are bonding.

In an unequal, parasitical awful sort of way, anyway.

[schmunzel]

Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:

"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)

I disagree.
As I too, am today a very different person than I have been (admittedly only) 20 years ago

sch

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I disagree.
As I too, am today a very different person than I have been (admittedly only) 20 years ago

sch

And if you died and was resurrected, you'd come back your current self. But with vampires, the original soul is resurrected as it was at its time of death, demonstrating said soul is still there, distinct from the vampire consciousness.

GW

[schmunzel]

Guh, I never got this. Why does the story have to conform to this set of arbitrary assumptions? It can be about anything, you know. It doesn't have to be yet another tired retread of "The Hero's Journey". In fact, one thing I enjoyed about OOTS for many years was its constant confounding of cliched stories like this. I don't get why it's so exciting to see yet another work slavishly following stale old tropes like these. Ugh, if I go the rest of my life without seeing "The Hero's Journey" again I will die a happy man.

I am not exactly sure how you get this assumption.
Rich is perhaps not slavishly following the monomyth, but I can clearly see its fragments throughout the story applying not only to just Durkon (think Roy and his Father and his sword and his death).

sch

[schmunzel]

And if you died and was resurrected, you'd come back your current self. But with vampires, the original soul is resurrected as it was at its time of death, demonstrating said soul is still there, distinct from the vampire consciousness.

GW

I would argue that the viewpoint of the vampire might be different.

sch

[Keltest]

I would argue that the viewpoint of the vampire might be different.

sch

The only thing I think Malack is wrong about is how complicated such an operation would be. He would just be dead. Theres nothing complicated about that. I suspect he identifies more strongly with his host than is typical for vampires. Either that, or Hel's Death Squad identifies with them less than is normal.

[Ruck]

I would argue that the viewpoint of the vampire might be different.

sch
How so? Or more precisely, what do you mean by that vis-a-vis Grey Wolf's comment?

[White Magic]

For Janna, whose terrible song lets us appreciate :elan:Elan:

There was a young man from Japan
Whose limericks never would scan.
When asked why that was,
He replied "It's because
I always try to cram as many words into the last line as I possibly can."

[Ikuryo]

And if you died and was resurrected, you'd come back your current self. But with vampires, the original soul is resurrected as it was at its time of death, demonstrating said soul is still there, distinct from the vampire consciousness.

GW

You missed the point.

Malacks personallity at the time of his turning to ash was all of the life experiences of the lizardman shaman + X number of years of additional life experience gained after he had turned into a vampire. Resurrecting him would erase the X additional years and revert Malack to the creature he was before becoming a vampire.

schmunzel was trying to say that if they died and were resurrected as themselves from 20 years ago they would be a different person from who they were at the time of their death. Who we are today is made of of all of our experiences and interactions we have had until now, if you were to revert a person to who they were X number of years earlier and erase all that they had experienced until now you would be effectively killing who they are now for who they were then. They can never experience the same things they did the previous time they lived those X years so they can never go back to who they were before they were reverted.

[8BitNinja]

If I have two apples, one banana and one orange, how many fruits do I have? Three or four?

You have big hands.

[danielxcutter]

You have big hands.

And I thought Paladins couldn't make jokes. :smallamused:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You missed the point.
The only way I missed the point was if the comment had nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


schmunzel was trying to say that if they died and were resurrected as themselves from 20 years ago they would be a different person from who they were at the time of their death.
This is irrelevant, because by the rules he cannot be resurrected as anything other than what they are today. It is a pointless hypothetical that has no bearing on whether the vampire eventually absorbs the soul, or whether they remain distinct.

Grey Wolf

[8BitNinja]

And I thought Paladins couldn't make jokes. :smallamused:

Hey, what do you think we use our high charisma scores for?

[JumboWheat01]

Hey, what do you think we use our high charisma scores for?

Hitting (possibly) evil people over the head with a sharp (maybe blunt) weapon?

[goto124]

If you put tomato in my fruit-salad I'm going to take that as pretext for raising the dead.
All of the dead.

One day I shall play a necromancer and find a reason to use this line.

[danielxcutter]

Hey, what do you think we use our high charisma scores for?

Turn Undead, Divine Grace, Smite Evil...

[Snails]

True, which is why a lot of modern "art" is so much derivative junk -- it's all the chaos without any of the structure. Same goes for a lot of the avant garde music.

Exactly. Most modern art feels empty to me. It may well be exciting to the artist and some friends, but the "language" gulf between us is too large when there is so little familiar geography to guide me. Getting the right amount of structure for the audience is important, which is one of the reasons Joss Whedon's writing is so admired.

In my eyes, there is a lot of modern art which are genuinely intriguing exercises in new techniques. But an unexpected technique is usually not art that I care about for more than two seconds, any more than a child practicing chord progressions on a weirdly tuned piano is likely to be memorable.

[Snails]

Regarding Paladins, people generally fail to appreciate how fun a ruthlessly honest person can be.

Paladin: "Duty requires me to make this offer to you, as I agreement to represent the will of my party. But I would consider a personal favor if you would reject it. We have had a long and tiring trudge to get here, and it would be a pleasant way to end the day to chop you into little pieces. Please, say no."

[a_flemish_guy]

You missed the point.

Malacks personallity at the time of his turning to ash was all of the life experiences of the lizardman shaman + X number of years of additional life experience gained after he had turned into a vampire. Resurrecting him would erase the X additional years and revert Malack to the creature he was before becoming a vampire.

schmunzel was trying to say that if they died and were resurrected as themselves from 20 years ago they would be a different person from who they were at the time of their death. Who we are today is made of of all of our experiences and interactions we have had until now, if you were to revert a person to who they were X number of years earlier and erase all that they had experienced until now you would be effectively killing who they are now for who they were then. They can never experience the same things they did the previous time they lived those X years so they can never go back to who they were before they were reverted.

is that true or is it just what the vampire believes?

as we can see in the comics durkon is still there and is experiencing everything the vampire does, just as a backseat driver

we already know that vampires have difficulties understanding how humans change by experience so for all we know the ressurected human still remembers all it did as a vampire and have his character changed apropriatly by those

[schmunzel]

The only way I missed the point was if the comment had nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


This is irrelevant, because by the rules he cannot be resurrected as anything other than what they are today. It is a pointless hypothetical that has no bearing on whether the vampire eventually absorbs the soul, or whether they remain distinct.

Grey Wolf

2d8p wrote "Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:
"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today" "

the point I wanted to make is that Malack didnt necessarily have to regard himsef as distinct.
I have the impression, that Vampire Malack regarded himself as a direct continuation of the Malack before he became a vampire and I donot regard above line as a prove to the contraray.#

sch

[Centaur]

If I have two apples, one banana and one orange, how many fruits do I have? Three or four?
Hmm. Now my first thought is that you have four...but the commas around "one banana and one orange" could indicate it's an appositive and that you're describing the two apples; saying that one of the apples is banana and the other is orange. :smalltongue:

By this logic, the correct answer would be “two”, but it was suggested earlier that “two” is a wrong answer to a question asking “three or four?”.

Also, “fruit” is a noun with irregular plural when used for individual objects; the regular -s form is mostly used to mean types of fruit. So two apples, one banana, and one orange are collectively four fruit but three fruits.

[Quebbster]

You have big hands.
Indeed I do.

[Kardwill]

And what if we do not? What if we assume he knew he would die there and just wanted to wind Belkar up more?


I got the impression he was trying to weasel out of his own prophecy by finding ways for it to be true without getting a pound of steel in the lungs, making a trip to Tiamat's afterlife and losing a level in the process. Just as we are currently arguing wether the "Death and destruction" Durkon is bringing home refers to the vampire's clerical domains or to Ragnarok.

My take on it is that he knew his prophecy was true, and he knew it would probably get him killed that day since all the other targets were already dead, but he still tried to distort the words of his own prophecy, because he didn't really have anything to lose, and resurection or not, nobody wants to get turned into a disemboweled litterbox by a crazy halfling. The village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling was created in the very likely case he still got killed.

[Quebbster]

I got the impression he was trying to weasel out of his own prophecy by finding ways for it to be true without getting a pound of steel in the lungs, making a trip to Tiamat's afterlife and losing a level in the process. Just as we are currently arguing wether the "Death and destruction" Durkon is bringing home refers to the vampire's clerical domains or to Ragnarok.

My take on it is that he knew his prophecy was true, and he knew it would probably get him killed that day since all the other targets were already dead, but he still tried to distort the words of his own prophecy, because he didn't really have anything to lose, and resurection or not, nobody wants to get turned into a disemboweled litterbox by a crazy halfling. The village of Lickmyorangeballshalfling was created in the very likely case he still got killed.
Vaarsuvius wasn't dead when Belkar killed the Oracle. But seeing that the Oracle had already paid for his resurrection in advance, it seems likely he accepted his Death as inevitable and just used it to troll Belkar. And hey, triggering the Mark of Justice led to some important character growth for the Belkster so the Oracle's Death definitely served the bigger story.

[Ikuryo]

is that true or is it just what the vampire believes?

as we can see in the comics durkon is still there and is experiencing everything the vampire does, just as a backseat driver

we already know that vampires have difficulties understanding how humans change by experience so for all we know the ressurected human still remembers all it did as a vampire and have his character changed apropriatly by those

It was mentioned that once the Vampire has assimulated all of the memories of the host that the hosts soul then goes into dormancy. The process could take a couple years. Once the original soul had gone into dormancy it would not have been able to watch over the vampires shoulder to know and experience 2nd hand all of the events in the vampires unlife. While a young vampire that is killed and raised might not have much of a difference, a very old vampire like Malack would likely have a large difference between host and vampire personalities.

[RatElemental]

2d8p wrote "Really?

I got the impression that Malack regarded himself as distinct:
"Bringing me back to life is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today" "

the point I wanted to make is that Malack didnt necessarily have to regard himsef as distinct.
I have the impression, that Vampire Malack regarded himself as a direct continuation of the Malack before he became a vampire and I donot regard above line as a prove to the contraray.#

sch

It might be important to note that at the time the "vampire soul using the corpse as a meat puppet" reveal had yet to be made, so Malack would indeed have to tapdance around that in order not to spoil a future plot twist.

[Unoriginal]

. Just as we are currently arguing wether the "Death and destruction" Durkon is bringing home refers to the vampire's clerical domains or to Ragnarok.

We know it's not Ragnarok, the Fire Giant demigod said so.



but he still tried to distort the words of his own prophecy

He didn't. He knew that Beklar was going to kill him (due to, you know, being a seer), and so he set up the town.

There was nothing "likely" about it, he knew it was coming.

In the same way he knew that telling Beklar about the "causing the death" exact words would cause the halfling to kill him.

[elros]

Oooooh, I didn't notice he took the bard's sentence. Nice!

Funny thing is, he probably chose to imitate the bard because what he said sounded cool and witty, but he didn't realise that it is really self-deprecating humor (because for him, no "master" would belittle himself in front of others, right?)
He's using Durkon's memory to look like he's got repartee, but he's really not good at picking up nuances in social interactions when they do not conform with his worldview.

I didn't pick up the wording, either. Thanks for pointing that out!

I am amazed at how Rich foreshadowed Durkon's nature as far back as this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html). No matter what Durkon thought, part of him resented his strict obedience and suppression of his desires. No surprise that the vampire inside him think that he is helping Darkon out.

So far, Durkon has been the character with the least growth (and much less than Haley, Belkar, etc), but it appears that he will have far more character growth in the future.

[Ezekiel]

Oh shush. Don't ruin my vision of an Epic Evil Bard spirit.

This makes me wonder if there's a mass version of Irresistible Dance. :smallamused:

[Quebbster]

This makes me wonder if there's a mass version of Irresistible Dance. :smallamused:
Now I'm imagining V using that spell at the Team Evil HQ...

[zimmerwald1915]

Now I'm imagining V using that spell at the Team Evil HQ...
Xykon's immune and Redcloak has an ungodly high Will save. MitD might be susceptible, but in that case why not just use the single-target version?

Oh, right, Oona and Grayview are things for this arc.

[Quibblicious]

And I thought Paladins couldn't make jokes. :smallamused:


Hey, what do you think we use our high charisma scores for?

Probably not picking up chicks... unless you mean using charisma to somehow rescue a hen and her young family from a cart careening wildly through the streets of a small town. Somehow I think dexterity would be the more appropriate stat, or maybe strength if you just stop the cart in its tracks.

Although I suppose you could use charisma to convince other people to leap in front of the cart to stop it and save the chicks. I suspect that would violate some Paladin code, though.

Meanderingly yours,
Q

[a_flemish_guy]

It was mentioned that once the Vampire has assimulated all of the memories of the host that the hosts soul then goes into dormancy. The process could take a couple years. Once the original soul had gone into dormancy it would not have been able to watch over the vampires shoulder to know and experience 2nd hand all of the events in the vampires unlife. While a young vampire that is killed and raised might not have much of a difference, a very old vampire like Malack would likely have a large difference between host and vampire personalities.

it might just become only dormant for the vampire, as in it just becomes part of the scenery since it doesn't need the soul anymore

the soul itself might continue to experience everything but this is all speculation so pretty much worthless:biggrin:

[Kardwill]

But seeing that the Oracle had already paid for his resurrection in advance, it seems likely he accepted his Death as inevitable and just used it to troll Belkar.


He didn't. He knew that Beklar was going to kill him (due to, you know, being a seer), and so he set up the town.

There was nothing "likely" about it, he knew it was coming

I don't know. The way he said "I wasn't really buying those theories either. Worth a shot though" when he died doesn't sound like a "Ha! Gotcha!". He knew his death was coming since the prophecy's other threads were unraveling (and maybe du to some visions about this day), but he wasn't sure of it. His "worth a shot" means he tried to weasel his way out, even if he took his precautions for his very likely death ('cause any day where you don't have your guts sticking out is a good day, even if you know you'll come back later)

[Kardwill]

I didn't pick up the wording, either. Thanks for pointing that out!

I am amazed at how Rich foreshadowed Durkon's nature as far back as this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html). No matter what Durkon thought, part of him resented his strict obedience and suppression of his desires. No surprise that the vampire inside him think that he is helping Darkon out.

So far, Durkon has been the character with the least growth (and much less than Haley, Belkar, etc), but it appears that he will have far more character growth in the future.

Oooh, "I should take feelings like that, and bury them in a deep dark part of my soul and never, ever talk about them again. That's the dwarven way." Good catch!

Well now, I guess that the "deep dark part of his soul" is walking among the living and wants to talk about those feelings again. ^^

[Peelee]

I don't know. The way he said "I wasn't really buying those theories either. Worth a shot though" when he died doesn't sound like a "Ha! Gotcha!". He knew his death was coming since the prophecy's other threads were unraveling (and maybe du to some visions about this day), but he wasn't sure of it. His "worth a shot" means he tried to weasel his way out, even if he took his precautions for his very likely death ('cause any day where you don't have your guts sticking out is a good day, even if you know you'll come back later)

He knows Belkar will kill him. He knows he can't get out of it. No matter what he said, Belkar would have ended up killing him. In such a scenario why shouldn't the Oracle try whatever the hell he feels like? Not like anything would actually help, so why not hassle the halfling?

[hroþila]

I don't think the Oracle was being 100% rational back there. He knew there was no defying one of his prophecies, BUT WHAT IF this was the one time he somehow managed to do it? He doesn't lose anything by trying, anyway.

[Shining Wrath]

Xykon's immune and Red cloak has an ungodly high Will save. MitD might be susceptible, but in that case why not just use the single-target version?

Oh, right, Oona and Grayview are things for this arc.

First - you're no fun. At all. Don't ruin the image of Team Evil collectively doing the Electric Boogaloo for the rest of us. :smalltongue:

Secondly, since the spell doesn't actually exist, we can stipulate that it does affect undead, and attacks Reflex saves, for Reasons Too Tedious To Enumerate (kindly ignore my waving hand).

Also, instead of Mass Irresistible Dance, I vote for a spell that forces Team Evil to collectively sing "Day-O", as seen in the best scene in Betelgeuse.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't there a feat or a spell that let Bards affect undead with their powers?

An Epic Evil Bard would probably have it.

[factotum]

Probably not picking up chicks...

Why not? There's nothing in the paladin code requiring them to be celibate, as far as I know. :smallsmile:

[Doug Lampert]

This makes me wonder if there's a mass version of Irresistible Dance. :smallamused:
Xykon's immune and Red cloak has an ungodly high Will save. MitD might be susceptible, but in that case why not just use the single-target version?

Oh, right, Oona and Grayview are things for this arc.


Irresistible Dance
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Who cares about Redcloak's will save if you're throwing around Irresistible Dance.

The word Irresistible is right there in the title (and the words "Spell Resistance: Yes" are right there in the spell block, so much for truth in advertising).

[Jasdoif]

The word Irresistible is right there in the title (and the words "Spell Resistance: Yes" are right there in the spell block, so much for truth in advertising).Clearly, the trick to get it as a supernatural ability....

[Shining Wrath]

Clearly, the trick to get it as a supernatural ability....

Something that might be granted to a religious bard by his deity - Banjo.

[Jay R]

I don't think the Oracle was being 100% rational back there. He knew there was no defying one of his prophecies, BUT WHAT IF this was the one time he somehow managed to do it? He doesn't lose anything by trying, anyway.

Prophecies can be tricky. I suspect that, having seen the future, he'd already knew about the entire event, and knew that, just as he couldn't prevent Belkar from killing him, he also couldn't stop himself from trying to prevent it.

[Throknor]

Prophecies can be tricky. I suspect that, having seen the future, he'd already knew about the entire event, and knew that, just as he couldn't prevent Belkar from killing him, he also couldn't stop himself from trying to prevent it.
I take the other tack, that he only knows the exact answers to questions. He just gets to ask himself "when will I next die" and "what spell will bring me back". He also gets to ask "when will the halfling that threatened to kill me die" and "what can I do to greatly inconvenience him/my next killer".

I don't have a chance to go through them all, but I'm pretty sure anything he knows could be explained with asking himself the right question. I don't think he just has random knowledge of the entirety of the future for everyone, or even himself, that he could treat as a reverse-memory. I think his power could be just knowing a true answer to any question. As long as he can ask himself questions he can get what he needs for himself without it being an eternal curse.

I mean, if he always knew the exact future he wouldn't always seem to get interrupted during bath time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).

Of course, that reference also hurts my point. Unless he previously asked for the identity of his next killer & when that killer would die and then recognized Belkar my explanation does not handle how he knows immediately that Belkar is not long for the world. So I'm just going to say he did and close the loop.

(Yes, I'm overthinking both foreshadowing and jokes. Isn't that what these forums are for?)

[Jay R]

I take the other tack, that he only knows the exact answers to questions.

But in one case we already know that he looked forward into the future to where these strips get collected into a book and read them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html).


I mean, if he always knew the exact future he wouldn't always seem to get interrupted during bath time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).

Yes, he would, if that's the exact future. We've already shown that he cannot change the future he's seen, so if he has already seen himself get interrupted during bath time, then he will get interrupted during bath time.

This is prophecy, not a hypothetical outcome that can be changed.


(Yes, I'm overthinking both foreshadowing and jokes. Isn't that what these forums are for?)

Yes, but don't forget Newton's Third Law of Internet Discussions: for every overthinking poster, there is an equal and opposite overthinking poster.

[skim172]

That vampire complaining about the exarch running away from the family business - it occurs to me that while in the real world, giving up your life to run away to a purely- monastic spiritual existence might be viewed as drastic and somewhat irrational ... in a world where the gods and spirits are literally manifested in the world and you see them all the time and they give you superpowers, it actually seems quite a rational and levelheaded career option. Not exactly an act of tremendous faith to choose to serve a deity when that deity comes around regularly just to chill on weekends, y'know?

This vampire's complaining that his host gave up a position in the family business ... but on the other hand, he now has (or had) the power to literally cause the rocks to cry out and shape the earth to serve his every whim and raise cool stone castles from the mountains in mere hours. I dunno, vampire - maybe it's your priorities that are screwed up.

I think the Vatican would find recruitment easier if all their priests were given superpowers in return for saying their nightly prayers.

[Kantaki]

That vampire complaining about the exarch running away from the family business - it occurs to me that while in the real world, giving up your life to run away to a purely- monastic spiritual existence might be viewed as drastic and somewhat irrational ... in a world where the gods and spirits are literally manifested in the world and you see them all the time and they give you superpowers, it actually seems quite a rational and levelheaded career option. Not exactly an act of tremendous faith to choose to serve a deity when that deity comes around regularly just to chill on weekends, y'know?

This vampire's complaining that his host gave up a position in the family business ... but on the other hand, he now has (or had) the power to literally cause the rocks to cry out and shape the earth to serve his every whim and raise cool stone castles from the mountains in mere hours. I dunno, vampire - maybe it's your priorities that are screwed up.

I think the Vatican would find recruitment easier if all their priests were given superpowers in return for saying their nightly prayers.

I think Gonetor's complain is more about his host's choice in his power source.
Praying to pebbles might give you cleric levels, but it's still not the same as worshipping a proper deity. Considering he (most likely) serves Hel that part might vex him more than the abandoned family business.

[Chei]

Yeah, the whole idea of running off to become a monk/priest doesn't quite line up in fantasy, since, sure, actual superpowers.

On the other hand, in fantasy, you have to actually make the sacrifices (literal sacrifices in some cases) to qualify for the magic power, with deep and palpable restrictions on your behavior from that day forward. This is in contrast to real life, where the vows are just words. Edit: Not to like, demean people who go down that route IRL. Just that nobody's granting clerical powers in return for worship.

Also, with the whole arrangement thing, it sounds like he came from a family that didn't need to have a spellcaster, but definitely needed someone for marriage pacts and filling positions in the family business. A merchant clan like that wants to keep it in the blood. If he betrays that, regardless of the reason, I can see them hating him, and he might hate them/himself as well.

I bet orders like the Creed have strict rules about using your clerical powers for profit - no just Plane Shifting to the Elemental Plane of Earth to dig up a diamond the size of a watermelon, as the Giant one suggested high-level wizards could do for money.

[Peelee]

That vampire complaining about the exarch running away from the family business - it occurs to me that while in the real world, giving up your life to run away to a purely- monastic spiritual existence might be viewed as drastic and somewhat irrational ... in a world where the gods and spirits are literally manifested in the world and you see them all the time and they give you superpowers, it actually seems quite a rational and levelheaded career option. Not exactly an act of tremendous faith to choose to serve a deity when that deity comes around regularly just to chill on weekends, y'know?

This vampire's complaining that his host gave up a position in the family business ... but on the other hand, he now has (or had) the power to literally cause the rocks to cry out and shape the earth to serve his every whim and raise cool stone castles from the mountains in mere hours. I dunno, vampire - maybe it's your priorities that are screwed up.

I think the Vatican would find recruitment easier if all their priests were given superpowers in return for saying their nightly prayers.

I dunno, it's not like it's not comparable to real life. A person who's born into a family that runs a small hardware store, for instance. Instead of getting into the family business and taking over one day, runs off to college and gets degrees in physics. That person can now solve complex problems and help further the bounds of science, but her family could still disapprove of going into academia when there was perfectly fine, honest work already open to her. And being able to even be her own boss one day, to boot! Why, she thinks she's too good for this, does she, just sitting in that ivory tower?

Not dissimilar.

[Jasdoif]

A person who's born into a family that runs a small hardware store, for instance.I believe the Vanillaville Mini-Widgets scenario is should be (https://hollylisle.com/creating-conflict-or-the-joys-of-boiling-oil/) the standard.

[8BitNinja]

Probably not picking up chicks... unless you mean using charisma to somehow rescue a hen and her young family from a cart careening wildly through the streets of a small town. Somehow I think dexterity would be the more appropriate stat, or maybe strength if you just stop the cart in its tracks.

Although I suppose you could use charisma to convince other people to leap in front of the cart to stop it and save the chicks. I suspect that would violate some Paladin code, though.

Meanderingly yours,
Q

Depending on how many chicks are needed to pick up, and possibly in a wood crate, strength would be a good stat for that.

[goto124]

Why not? There's nothing in the paladin code requiring them to be celibate, as far as I know. :smallsmile:

better if been around block few times. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html)

[JumboWheat01]

Depending on how many chicks are needed to pick up, and possibly in a wood crate, strength would be a good stat for that.

I never knew I wanted to see a paladin carrying a crate full of peeping chicks before now.

[B. Dandelion]

I think the really warped thing about vampire-Gontor's complaint is that if his host had gone along with his family's plans for him, and never become a priest of a religion with no deity and no protection at the Godsmoot, he (probably) never would have been in the position to become the unwilling host for a vampire spirit in the first place. He's upset about a decision that was vitally necessary to his own existence.

[Chei]

I think the really warped thing about vampire-Gontor's complaint is that if his host had gone along with his family's plans for him, and never become a priest of a religion with no deity and no protection at the Godsmoot, he (probably) never would have been in the position to become the unwilling host for a vampire spirit in the first place. He's upset about a decision that was vitally necessary to his own existence.

Same with Durkula. It seems like vampire spirits consider their own existence to be the ultimate justification that their hosts made terrible life choices, in a roundabout way. I am not even 100% that they're wrong about that.

[F.Harr]

Go door!

Defy convention!

You can do it!

You can be a Wall!

[B. Dandelion]

Same with Durkula. It seems like vampire spirits consider their own existence to be the ultimate justification that their hosts made terrible life choices, in a roundabout way. I am not even 100% that they're wrong about that.

You might expect him to be a bit more... gloatingly contemptuous of it rather than personally offended and upset. I think it might be indication of a somewhat fuzzy line of identity between the vampire spirit as a unique being and the host soul they're cribbing memories and emotions off of. Those first negative emotions the vampire absorbs, they strongly connect and identify with, so the vampire feels personally all the hurt that Gontor endured as a result of his choice. But not any corresponding happiness or ultimate vindication of hardship. The conclusion the vampires naturally draw from getting an impression of someone based foremost on the worst days of their life is that they're probably a terrible screw-up to have ended up where they did.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Those first negative emotions the vampire absorbs, they strongly connect and identify with, so the vampire feels personally all the hurt that Gontor endured as a result of his choice. But not any corresponding happiness or ultimate vindication of hardship. The conclusion the vampires naturally draw from getting an impression of someone based foremost on the worst days of their life is that they're probably a terrible screw-up to have ended up where they did.

I agree entirely with this post.

GW

[Calemyr]

There are a few things to consider regarding Malack.
1) As has already been mentioned, his statement was before Greg's reveal, and therefore was written not to spoil that. (That's the real reason, right there.)
2) Yaun-ti and Lizard Folk don't live very long lives, and Malack has been a vampire for 200+ years.
3) Malack is an affable, civilized cleric who tries to be morally neutral as opposed to the backwater shaman he was in life.

It seems very likely that, having lived as a vampire for twice (possibly 5x or more) as long as he was alive, he no longer defines himself as "the shaman's vampire", but as his own identity, with the shaman simply being a former phase of his existence that is as awkward and embarrassing to look back on as most people's teen years. In his case, he really has become his own person instead of a twisted mockery of the corpse he inhabits. If the Greg were to survive long enough for Durkon to be subsumed and then carry on longer than Durkon himself lived, he'd probably define himself by his host's identity, either.

And yeah, I think before they find their feet in their own rights (and even after that to a lesser degree), vampires define themselves by their hosts. Kind of like the Linear Guild, they justify their existence through opposition to the original. Malack is a clear example of this as well, as I've noted. His disdain for the Shaman's barbarism was clear, and in contrast he built himself as... well... Malack. An affable and civilized creature who fed on the blood of legally executed "criminals" rather than feral predation, who saw his victims as family rather than fodder. Likewise, Greg is vindictive, cruel, and motivated, three words that could never be used to describe Durkon, and the Exarch is an aggressive believer in following "the Plan" where his host eschewed his "Plan" in order to follow his heart. (Think about it, what's pissing the Exarch off? That the door isn't behaving like a door. That it's not doing what it's meant to. It's not following "the Plan". He's not focused on what he needs to do in there, or how they get past it, just that the door "would rather be a wall".)

As for Greg, I still hold that his reuse of Squeaky's philosophy is a fairly major reveal. I'm not saying the meaning of the words left an impact in his thinking, but rather phraseology of it clearly did, not unlike hearing part of a song in the morning and being unable to get it out of your head all day - to the point that you find yourself tapping your fingers to the beat and start humming it thoughtlessly. Or maybe that's just me. Anyway, the Giant has taken great care in making "voice" an important aspect to his story-telling. Most word bubbles from established characters wouldn't look right coming out of other characters because, even if that's something they would say, it's likely not how they would say it. In this story, characters typically don't crib the voice of another character unless they are evoking their mindset, mocking them, or pretending to be them. Greg isn't trying to deceive anyone at the moment, nor does he seem to notice what he just did. That's not an accidental thing. From a narrative standpoint, that's very intentional. It means that Durkon's memories are having a definite impact on Greg. Given that Durkon has been "subtly" indicating that he's working towards something, and that his choice of memories has integral to that goal, this little slip here seems likely to be the first clear and definite crack in Greg's control. When Greg finally gets his rematch with Roy, not only will Roy be more dangerous, but Durkon will be fighting on his side. And, if I'm right, it will be epic.

[Yendor]

The conclusion the vampires naturally draw from getting an impression of someone based foremost on the worst days of their life is that they're probably a terrible screw-up to have ended up where they did.

Well, if you got turned into a vampire, you must have gone wrong somewhere. :smalltongue:

[a_flemish_guy]

Well, if you got turned into a vampire, you must have gone wrong somewhere. :smalltongue:

it's the ultimate "why do you make me hit you"!

[Bob_McSurly]

Maybe this has been mentioned already, but does anyone else think that Gontor might have been the arranged husband that Hilgya ran away from? Gontor*/Craig doesn't mention why his host ran away from his cushy life to go worship rocks, and losing his wife (Hilgya's husband pretty much adored her, from what we see in the comics) seems like the kind of thing that would make Gontor do something drastic (Like say, go worship rocks).

[Keltest]

Maybe this has been mentioned already, but does anyone else think that Gontor might have been the arranged husband that Hilgya ran away from? Gontor*/Craig doesn't mention why his host ran away from his cushy life to go worship rocks, and losing his wife (Hilgya's husband pretty much adored her, from what we see in the comics) seems like the kind of thing that would make Gontor do something drastic (Like say, go worship rocks).

Doubt it. We have a picture of him, and also I would think the Vampire would notice Hilgya trying to kill Gontor and mentioning that in the list of reasons his host was horrible.

[Dr.Zero]

Moreover the guy's name was Ivan.
Granted, he might have changed it when he changed his life, but all in all -different picture, different name- it seems a bit too contrived.

[Bob_McSurly]

Doubt it. We have a picture of him, and also I would think the Vampire would notice Hilgya trying to kill Gontor and mentioning that in the list of reasons his host was horrible.
But couldn't Gontor have not shown him that memory?

[Bob_McSurly]

Moreover the guy's name was Ivan.
Granted, he might have changed it when he changed his life, but all in all -different picture, different name- it seems a bit too contrived.
Oh. I forgot he had a name. Well, I suppose I'm probably wrong then:smallsmile:

[Lord Torath]

Maybe this has been mentioned already, but does anyone else think that Gontor might have been the arranged husband that Hilgya ran away from? Gontor*/Craig doesn't mention why his host ran away from his cushy life to go worship rocks, and losing his wife (Hilgya's husband pretty much adored her, from what we see in the comics) seems like the kind of thing that would make Gontor do something drastic (Like say, go worship rocks).Gontor is pretty old, as evidenced by his white beard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html). Hilgya doesn't appear to have aged substantially (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) since her marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html), so it's probably safe to assumne that Ivan is still relatively young as well.

[Chei]

Also Hilda is the one who ran away to be a cleric, not her husband. Maybe Gontor is her uncle or something, and that merchant clan is just cursed to have one child each generation run off to become a cleric.

[Bob_McSurly]

Also Hilda is the one who ran away to be a cleric, not her husband. Maybe Gontor is her uncle or something, and that merchant clan is just cursed to have one child each generation run off to become a cleric.
What I was trying to say was that he might have became a rock cleric AFTER Hilgya left him, since his old life was no longer worth living without her and he had some kind of mid-life crisis or something.
But I suppose the whole "Ivan" thing is still pretty clearly not in my favour :smallsmile: