PF - Simulacrum of Awakened Construct?

[unseenmage]

(Copied from this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22249187&postcount=718) in the Q&A thread.)

Would a Simulacrum of an Awaken Construct-ed creature be intelligent or not?
Rules source or FAQ would be appreciated on this one thank you.

Assuming Trompe L'oeil paintings are made with the subject present, can one create a Trompe L'oeil of an Awaken Construct-ed version of something?

[unseenmage]

Related question following the same logic; can a Simulacrum be made of an Awakened Animal or Tree?

Do spells with an Instantaneous duration create a fundamentally new creature or simply alter an existing one?

As a 3.x example the Awaken Sand spell from the Sandstorm book is Instantaneous and creates a sentient free-willed creature.
Assuming there is an analogous spell in PF would a Simulacrum be able to be made of a creature created by an Instantaneous spell instead of just altered by one?


Following the above reasoning... can a Simulacrum be made... of another Simulacrum? (Not that one 'should', simply curious if one 'could'.)

[Psyren]

I know it's not really what you want to hear, but these questions seem to stray (at least to me) pretty far into the realm of GM adjudication.

"Simulacrum of a Simulacrum" to me would result in each successive copy having half HD powers of the preceding copy, until the effective HD became too low to have any abilities at all.

[Calthropstu]

Yes, you can make a simulacrum of a simulacrum. If an awakened creature casts simulacrum, they would in fact get a simulacrum that would be awakened. It produces, after all, an "exact duplicate" with fewer levels.
Awakened constructs, however, are (for the most part) immune to simulacrum and thus cannot be cloned in such a manner (sorry, no army of awakened adamantine golems for you.) If they are not immune, then all the other rules for simulacrum apply.
Could it be cheaper than making a construct from scratch? Possibly. But remember, the construct, once awakened, does not automatically serve you (unless YOU are the awakened construct in question) so it could end up being very very bad to set this up.

[unseenmage]

I know it's not really what you want to hear, but these questions seem to stray (at least to me) pretty far into the realm of GM adjudication.
I realize this is the case and appreciate the assistance regardless.
You know me, I want to know what the RAW says and what precedents we know of first before bugging a GM about the thing.


"Simulacrum of a Simulacrum" to me would result in each successive copy having half HD powers of the preceding copy, until the effective HD became too low to have any abilities at all.
Agreed. This was certainly not part of the original plan but it was an amusing side effect of following this question down the rabbit hole.




...
Awakened constructs, however, are (for the most part) immune to simulacrum and thus cannot be cloned in such a manner (sorry, no army of awakened adamantine golems for you.) If they are not immune, then all the other rules for simulacrum apply.
The Simulacrum spell has 'SR: no' and specifies "any creature" so Golems, let alone Constructs Awakened or not, are most definitely not immune.


Could it be cheaper than making a construct from scratch? Possibly. But remember, the construct, once awakened, does not automatically serve you (unless YOU are the awakened construct in question) so it could end up being very very bad to set this up.
Simulacrum are also "under your absolute command" at all times so yes one would control their Simulacrum. However, as it would constitute their 'becoming more powerful' the Awaken Construct spell couldn't be applied to an existing Simulacrum.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, I was mistaken... I thought simulacrum was a self only spell.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, I was mistaken... I thought simulacrum was a self only spell.
Oooh! That explains a LOT.

Could you have been thinking of Twine Double (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Twine%20Double)?

[Florian]

The problem I see is that the Simulacrum itself is a spell effect, illusion (shadow), to be precise.

While that means that yes, you can make a duplicate of any creature, it also should mean no, you can´t make a simulacrum of a simulacrum, as you can´t target q quasi real (shadow) illusion of something to duplicate it.

[unseenmage]

The problem I see is that the Simulacrum itself is a spell effect, illusion (shadow), to be precise.

While that means that yes, you can make a duplicate of any creature, it also should mean no, you can´t make a simulacrum of a simulacrum, as you can´t target q quasi real (shadow) illusion of something to duplicate it.
Luckily the Simulacrum spell lacks a "Target" line.