OOTS #1101 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ironsmith]

So, does this mean Durkon* doesn't actually have protection from daylight anymore, since he doesn't have the staff? Or did he take the time to learn both spells?

Also, perfect "Oh, crap!" moment for Roy.

[Jethro_Thrull]

Ho dag! That Undurkon sure is a rascal!

[Giggling Ghast]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires. :smallfurious:

[Yendor]

Well, that's probably not good.

[Lord Raziere]

Touche Haley, touche. Vampires are liars. I just like the reveal of the vampires rising up behind them, Belkar is still confused, and Roy is realizing how deep they in trouble, just great. that last panel is priceless.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

New comic is up.

Well, that's a lot of spell slots right there. Presumably used before dusk, so Greg & co. will have refreshed them, but still, that's a lot of spell slots. Maybe he researched a mass version instead?

Also, the newly risen will be a speed bump and consume some of the order's resources, but I'd have thought Greg would want to carry some of the vampires-to-be with them just to bolster his numbers down the line.

Grey Wolf

[Deuce]

So at least 11 Vampires? Well, I guess the world has had a nice run . . .

(yes, I know, not likely, but)

[Bubble]

I love those glowing red eyes!

[alwaysbebatman]

God damn. I completely bought that Durkon* didn't have that spell without the staff.

Excellent fake out.

Who called this? They get all the cookies.

[Raazan]

Damn, that's terrifying. And a great example of logical deduction. Does anyone know the rules for learning special spells like that, he may have had time to research more than one spell.
Side note: holy *&%$ I'm one of the first comments. Wow.

[Chei]

God damn. I completely bought that Durkon* didn't have that spell without the staff.

Excellent fake out.

Who called this? They get all the cookies.

This 100% tricked me too, and it's automatically one of my favorite twists in a long while. I respect Durkon* so much as a villain right now.

[Auburn Bright]

Looks like Belkar and Roy both failed a spot check.

[tigerusthegreat]

I see the Giant went to the same school of evil DMing that I did

[Gift Jeraff]

I knew it! He already said he plans to spend the rest of eternity in Hel's planar domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), so why would he care about daylight ever again?

[Irish Musician]

*slow clap* Well done, Giant. Well done indeed. What a way to spin it. Awesome stuff, can't wait to see what happens next!!!!

[hroþila]

Ha, excellent. That last panel even looks scary, which is quite a feat with stick figure art. Very nice touch with the bright red eyes in the dark.

(Another nice touch: Belkar failing his Spot check and missing at least three vampires in front of him)

[alwaysbebatman]

So, does this mean Durkon* doesn't actually have protection from daylight anymore, since he doesn't have the staff? Or did he take the time to learn both spells?

Also, perfect "Oh, crap!" moment for Roy.

He might have taken the time to try to research both. IF he had any reason to think he would ever need to deal with sunlight for what little remains of his undeath.

Let's not forget that the Plan is a suicide mission.

Eta: Ninjad by a Giraffe!

[Psyren]

Well, that's a lot of spell slots right there. Presumably used before dusk, so Greg & co. will have refreshed them, but still, that's a lot of spell slots. Maybe he researched a mass version instead?

It is, but (a) We don't know what level it is and (b) it may be that, now that he researched it, that Hel can grant it to his lackeys.

If all the spell does is speed up the process (and needs both a vampire and a victim to function) we could even argue for it being 1st/2nd level.

[Peelee]

Oh my. Ohmyohmyohmy.

I know the "its so expressive for stick figures!" thing has been said to death, but still, I think it's a testament to both the art and writing that I felt abject horror at the splash panel.

[BungleBee]

Remember to swing low, guys!!


First page first for me!!!! XD

[Chei]

He might have taken the time to try to research both. IF he had any reason to think he would ever need to deal with sunlight for what little remains of his undeath.

Let's not forget that the Plan is a suicide mission.

Durkon*'s plan is not a suicide mission. He can Plane Shift to Hel's domain before the gods destroy the world, and he intimated as much to Roy when he said he'd take care of Durkon's soul for all eternity.

[Nu]

Well, I think this calls for a "dun dun DUN!"

[The MunchKING]

If I was an Evil Vampire, I'D want both, but clearly that logic was sound.

[Shining Wrath]

Shazbot, as Mork would say. That's a lot of baby vampires, even for the OotS. I count 11.
OTOH, just off screen is Vaarsuvius, loaded for vampiric bear. The hurt is about to be brought. But resources will be spent on the babies that should have been used on the main group.

Also, Malack raised Durkon immediately. Were these instructed to "play possum"?

EDIT:

There's 11 behind Roy. But we see in panels 3, 5, and 7 the Order walking past at least 12 by my count. The baby vampires were instructed to save their ambush until the Order was in their midst.

23 baby vampires is a metric boatload, even for a high level party.

[Shining Wrath]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires. :smallfurious:

Are you saying they are ghastly?

[JumboWheat01]

I dare say that that's a few vampires there. All in a very nice line for some powerful evocation spells.

[Chei]

Shazbot, as Mork would say. That's a lot of baby vampires, even for the OotS. I count 11.
OTOH, just off screen is Vaarsuvius, loaded for vampiric bear. The hurt is about to be brought. But resources will be spent on the babies that should have been used on the main group.

Also, Malack raised Durkon immediately. Were these instructed to "play possum"?

There are 16 vampires in the last panel, and it is missing the clerics guarding the entrance to the temple of Thor.

[alwaysbebatman]

Durkon*'s plan is not a suicide mission. He can Plane Shift to Hel's domain before the gods destroy the world, and he intimated as much to Roy when he said he'd take care of Durkon's soul for all eternity.

Good point, my mistake. If he were to be destroyed, does his Vampire soul go to Hel? Or is it just destroyed?

But, yeah, he can't have meant that, since even if so, Durkon Classic's soul would be freed to go to Valhalla in that case.

[Stiletto]

I think Belkar failed a Spot check.

[PH7]

Aaaah...nuts.

[Sans.]

... Crap. Gfdi.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nice little touch: the corpses from panel 6 onward have faded, unnatural hair colors (for non-elves) and greyish skin.

[The MunchKING]

It is, but (a) We don't know what level it is and (b) it may be that, now that he researched it, that Hel can grant it to his lackeys.

If all the spell does is speed up the process (and needs both a vampire and a victim to function) we could even argue for it being 1st/2nd level.

It HAS to be second level or lower if we are going with the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?120917-D-amp-D-3-5-How-do-wizards-research-craft-a-new-spell). As it has been less than a fortnight since Roy was stabbed with his own sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html). (especially as V had been calling him out on exaggerating earlier in the strip so that one must have been close enough to accurate if V gave him a pass on it.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is, but (a) We don't know what level it is and (b) it may be that, now that he researched it, that Hel can grant it to his lackeys.

If all the spell does is speed up the process (and needs both a vampire and a victim to function) we could even argue for it being 1st/2nd level.

I assumed (b) to be the case, regardless. Is there a usual level range between a spell and its mass version? I.e. if the single target is level 3, would the mass version be, say, 5? And are there rules that make developing mass versions of existing spells easier?

GW

[Chei]

Good point, my mistake. If he were to be destroyed, does his Vampire soul go to Hel? Or is it just destroyed?

But, yeah, he can't have meant that, since even if so, Durkon Classic's soul would be freed to go to Valhalla in that case.

I think vampire spirits are destroyed. They aren't souls, I think. If undead spirits persisted after death, as souls do, it would be possible to Resurrect them.

It is comforting to know that Durkon earned entry into Valhalla, but it actually raises a question for me:

If a dwarf dies with honor, gets resurrected, and then dies without honor, what happens to the soul then? Hel?

[Keltest]

Well. That sucks.

I'm not sorry.

[Shining Wrath]

Well. That sucks.

I'm not sorry.

Vampires have studied with Professor Higgins; the vein they drain flows mainly to the brain.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It HAS to be second level or lower if we are going with the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?120917-D-amp-D-3-5-How-do-wizards-research-craft-a-new-spell).

Those seem to be rules for developing a spell de novo. This is more like learning an existing spell from a scroll. We know from when Durkon developed the mass protection spell that he did it in a day, with help from existing magic tomes and a mentor.

That said, from what I gather of your link, the rules ain't that detailed, are they?


I think vampire spirits are destroyed. They aren't souls, I think. If undead spirits persisted after death, as souls do, it would be possible to Resurrect them.
I don't think the spirit is destroyed as such, but I'd imagine that it'd get re-merged with the negative energy plane, and it'd lose any individuality it might have gained while being a vampire.


If a dwarf dies with honor, gets resurrected, and then dies without honor, what happens to the soul then? Hel?

Yep, which would make you think most would not allow themselves to be resurrected once they are past Hel's clutches. But I'd speculate that acting honorable is ingrained enough they'd still come back if resurrected. Even in death, they might be too honorable NOT to heed the call.

GW

[Prendre]

Oh jeez. I audibly yelped a little reading this at work. Well done.

[Yendor]

Let's see: 13 vampires ahead of them, three lurking behind them they passed in panel 7, two more in panel 5, and eight from the previous strip, most of them passed in panels 1-3.

I make it at least 26 vampires.

[Basement Cat]

For the very first time in this Epic story: My blood ran cold---and then something showed up to make matters worse. :smalleek:

[Gwynfrid]

I didn't see that one coming. Very nicely done :smallbiggrin:

[Lathund]

SWEET cliffhanger. I hope the next update comes fast.

[elros]

Once again, Haley makes her spot [plot device] roll. When you consider that she was the one who recognized that Shojo was faking senility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html), and that none of the undead that Redcloak created were actually Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html), she must have 20 ranks in that skill!

[arrowed]

Considering Durkon and lackeys were able to fight off the living versions fairly trivially, or so it seemed, will the undead versions be that much of a problem? Especially since it was clerics vs. undead.

Also... :vaarsuvius: Sunburst?

[Bluepaw]

What a splash panel! Those EYES!!

[alwaysbebatman]

@GW: Interesting point. Accept resurrection is a big risk for a dwarf.

[The Pilgrim]

God damn. I completely bought that Durkon* didn't have that spell without the staff.

Excellent fake out.

Who called this? They get all the cookies.

I did as soon as I read Roy saying there would be no more vampires and let's deal with the corpses later. I mean, come on! those words are prime "famous last words" material in an undead-themed setting.

Didn't make the strip any less awesome to me, though. I love how the Giant can play the tropes straight and square in such a masterful way.

[Gift Jeraff]

Considering Durkon and lackeys were able to fight off the living versions fairly trivially, or so it seemed, will the undead versions be that much of a problem? Especially since it was clerics vs. undead.

Also... :vaarsuvius: Sunburst?

Getting V to waste Sunburst spells may be precisely what Undead Durkon wants.

[Friv]

It is, but (a) We don't know what level it is and (b) it may be that, now that he researched it, that Hel can grant it to his lackeys.

If all the spell does is speed up the process (and needs both a vampire and a victim to function) we could even argue for it being 1st/2nd level.

Yeah, my assumption would be that Durkula taught the spell to his other cleric minions, in order to get enough vampires going for the ambush. That would leave enough spells free for the murder spree.

[Windscion]

Considering Durkon and lackeys were able to fight off the living versions fairly trivially, or so it seemed, will the undead versions be that much of a problem? Especially since it was clerics vs. undead.

Bolster undead is a thing. So, not quite so favorable toward the clerics. Most of whom had not chosen their spell slots with combat in view.

[Chei]

I assumed (b) to be the case, regardless. Is there a usual level range between a spell and its mass version? I.e. if the single target is level 3, would the mass version be, say, 5? And are there rules that make developing mass versions of existing spells easier?

GW

It seems to be 4 level difference, with some exceptions. The stat-buffing spells, like Cat's Grace, jump from 2 to 6. Hold Person (Arcane) jumps from 3 to 7. Harm and Heal jump from 6 to 9, but it's possible they would go higher if there were 10th-level spells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Once again, Haley makes her spot [plot device] roll. When you consider that she was the one who recognized that Shojo was faking senility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html), and that none of the undead that Redcloak created were actually Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html), she must have 20 ranks in that skill!

The skill is called Sense Motive, and Hunch is a DC 20, so I'm thinking she probably does have quite a few points invested in it. She specializes in figuring out what the other side is planning, so it should come as no surprise she can do this - no need to suggest she's reading the author's notes through the fourth wall.

GW

[Grey Watcher]

That's... that's bad. :smalleek:

Quick, Turn Unde-, oh, right, we don't have our Cleric....

[Giscard76]

I love how Belkar is still tring to figure out whats going on but Mr. Scruffy has already figured it out! (at lease thats how I interprate thier facial expresions)

[Kantaki]

:smalleek:That... is less than ideal.:smalleek:

Also, those vampires waited for the perfect moment to reveal themselves.:smalleek:
The first rule of undead hunting. Never assume a corpse is just a corpse. Especially if there's more than one.

This was seriously unexpected. I didn't even consider for a moment Durkula could have learned that spell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, my assumption would be that Durkula taught the spell to his other cleric minions, in order to get enough vampires going for the ambush. That would leave enough spells free for the murder spree.

That would take a day, which he hasn't really had. But he doesn't need to: it makes sense that once a priest has taught their deity a new way to use divine energy, said deity can immediately grant it to all their other priests.


It seems to be 4 level difference, with some exceptions. The stat-buffing spells, like Cat's Grace, jump from 2 to 6. Hold Person (Arcane) jumps from 3 to 7. Harm and Heal jump from 6 to 9, but it's possible they would go higher if there were 10th-level spells.

Thanks. Very much appreciated. I'm having little luck figuring this out on my own. I think I'll just use level +3 as a rule of thumb, but if it really would take at least 4 weeks, that doesn't really jive with the time Greg has had.

So it does seem that this must be a low-level spell spam.

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

Yeah, plot devices are Elan's bag, Haley specializes in deception: both doing it and detecting it.

That is an excellent record of seeing through opposition scams, though.

[Chei]

Getting V to waste Sunburst spells may be precisely what Undead Durkon wants.

Sunburst spell, in the worst case. V prepared two Mind Blank spells, making it extremely likely that Sunburst is in their bonus slot as an evocation specialist.

[KeiranHalcyon]

Once again, Haley makes her spot [plot device] roll. When you consider that she was the one who recognized that Shojo was faking senility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html), and that none of the undead that Redcloak created were actually Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html), she must have 20 ranks in that skill!

I'd call it "genre savvy" rather than spot [plot device]. But, you know, she was raised by a 1st edition thief....

[Quebbster]

Oh my. It looks like it's on, as the saying goes.

[tufttugger]

As one of my old players might say, "Oh! It's on like donkey kong!", while another rubbed his hands gleefully at the prospect of a crazy battle. A third might have had their jaw drop at the crazy plotting the DM unleashed.

[2D8HP]

...that last panel is priceless.


.... I felt abject horror at the splash panel.


:eek:

Most scared while reading OotS EVER!

[tufttugger]

Not sure if this has been noted, but if they are 4HD or less, they are just spawn. Pretty weak. But 5HD+, full vampires, a lot tougher and with class levels.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, huh. I’ll admit that I was firmly wedded to the idea that Durkon could not, in fact, raise any new vampires. That last panel actually terrified sitting here in the open daylight :smalleek:.

[Ornithologist]

I don't get 100% blindsided by a plot twist very often. Today is that day.

I honestly don't even remember the twist having come up in the forums beforehand, which says multitudes.


Serious Pit in Stomach moment there.

[Qaanol]

By my count, the Order has encountered 25 or 26 dead bodies since entering the tunnel, of which at least 14 have risen.

Comic 1100 shows 8 bodies in panel 7, one of which is halfway off the left edge.

Comic 1101 shows the Order walking past those same bodies in the first 3 panels.

Panel 5 shows 2 bodies, of which the one by the shield may-or-may-not be the same as the body halfway off the left edge in comic 1100.

Panel 6 shows 1 more body (as well as part of one already seen in panel 5)

Panel 7 shows 2 more bodies (as well as the two already seen in panel 6).

Panel 8 shows 2 more bodies (as well as one already seen in panel 7).

The splash panel at the end shows 11 new bodies and 5 which have already appeared (the 3 at the bottom edge are the same as in panel 7, while the one just above Mr. Scruffy and the one halfway off panel beside it both appeared in panel 8).

Essentially, the camera angle rotated so the splash panel is looking forward into the tunnel where the Order has not yet gone.

That gives a total of 8+2+1+2+2+11 = 26 bodies, although as mentioned one of them may be double-counted because it is not clearly identifiable.

In the splash panel, 11 have glowing red eyes visible, and the 3 at the bottom are clearly standing up. The two other bodies in that scene (one hidden behind Roy, one halfway off the left edge) are obscured so we don’t have direct confirmation.

The number seen so far is 14 definitely raised, and a further 11-or-12 corpses which are *probably* also risen, including Brother Sandstone.

Of course the tunnel continues up ahead and there could well be more around the bend, but that’s what we’ve seen for sure.

[Chei]

Not sure if this has been noted, but if they are 4HD or less, they are just spawn. Pretty weak. But 5HD+, full vampires, a lot tougher and with class levels.

There was one cleric outside the door guaranteed to be level 5, as he was casting Thor's Lightning. So a minimum of one vampire.

[Noldo]

I don't usually post in the Reactions thread, but I just have to say that this was beautifully played by the Giant.

[SaintRidley]

Well, that was surprising. A finely crafted twist.

[littlebum2002]

I see the Giant went to the same school of evil DMing that I did

I'll confirm that. I was in your game once. A building fell on us in the first town.





If a dwarf dies with honor, gets resurrected, and then dies without honor, what happens to the soul then? Hel?

When Roy died, it seemed as if your "first" judgement carried over for all following deaths. Besides, it just says that for a dwarf to avoid Hel, they need to "die with honor". Not "die with honor every time". Once you die with honor, you've fulfilled the requirement and no longer are eligible for Hel.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, my assumption would be that Durkula taught the spell to his other cleric minions, in order to get enough vampires going for the ambush. That would leave enough spells free for the murder spree.Have they had a chance to regain spells since the Godsmoot? I had the distinct impression that very shortly after popping out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), Fake Gontor was scolding the architecture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html). And it's only been six hours since then.

Does a newly-raised Vampire keep the spells its host had memorized until it gets the chance to pray for new ones at dusk? Or does it get to replace every existing prepared spell with a new one? Or does it just lose all its spells until it can pray for more?

Great twist, Giant! Thanks!

[factotum]

You know, the first time I read this I didn't even realise there was a second page to this one (reading it on a laptop which perfectly cut off the comic at the bottom of the first page), and it was only when I came to this thread and read the comments that I went back and saw that big splash panel... :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

Not sure if this has been noted, but if they are 4HD or less, they are just spawn. Pretty weak. But 5HD+, full vampires, a lot tougher and with class levels.

Not explicitly, but I have referred to them as "baby vampires". Although presumably Sandstone, who was casting Lightning as he died, was at least 5th level.

I'm going to guess that 20+ clerics of at least 5th level would have given Team Durkula a few problems, so these people for the most part were not of 5th level, and probably devoid of class levels.

Let's guess one or two full vampires, and the rest spawn.

[Random Sanity]

... Well, THAT just happened.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, so looking into this a bit more, I now suspect that the "quicken vampire awakening" is probably a third-level spell based on the Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) one, which can raise multiple creatures with a single casting, because it raises a set amount of HD - twice your caster level, in fact. If this works the same way, Greg can cast it once and get close to 30 HD worth of vampires (twice that if they first cast desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm), a second-level spell). If these were low-level warriors and acolytes, that'd be quite a few vampires with a relatively low number of spell slots used - and of course, as I (and others) have said, there is no reason to think Greg's followers couldn't have had the spell too.

If all the above speculation is anywhere accurate, it would also explain why they left these behind. Greg could easily raise another 60+ HD worth of neophyte vampires barely eating into his spell slots if he has the raw materials to do so. If there is a limit, it will be to how many he can control, rather than how many he can raise.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

I'll confirm that. I was in your game once. A building fell on us in the first town.




When Roy died, it seemed as if your "first" judgement carried over for all following deaths. Besides, it just says that for a dwarf to avoid Hel, they need to "die with honor". Not "die with honor every time". Once you die with honor, you've fulfilled the requirement and no longer are eligible for Hel.

If I'm ever judged in the hereafter, can I retain you as my attorney? :smallbiggrin:

[kabukiman1973]

I must admit: this was briliant and scary.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have they had a chance to regain spells since the Godsmoot? I had the distinct impression that very shortly after popping out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), Fake Gontor was scolding the architecture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html). And it's only been six hours since then.

The Order was going to arrive "before midnight" according to Hel, so there has been at least one dusk since the moot, which they have certainly used to refresh spells. Whether that was before or after they massacred the dwarves is anyone's guess, but I'd imagine it was after.


Does a newly-raised Vampire keep the spells its host had memorized until it gets the chance to pray for new ones at dusk? Or does it get to replace every existing prepared spell with a new one? Or does it just lose all its spells until it can pray for more?


It keeps the one they had until refresh, since Greg was able to cast a "call planar ally" (or similar; the one that got Greg a spiky demon) that was prepared by Durkon.

Grey Wolf

[Talion]

Have they had a chance to regain spells since the Godsmoot? I had the distinct impression that very shortly after popping out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), Fake Gontor was scolding the architecture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html). And it's only been six hours since then.

Does a newly-raised Vampire keep the spells its host had memorized until it gets the chance to pray for new ones at dusk? Or does it get to replace every existing prepared spell with a new one? Or does it just lose all its spells until it can pray for more?

Great twist, Giant! Thanks!

From what we saw in the ziggurat, if raised that quickly as a vampire they would be stuck with whatever spell slots they had remaining (Durkon had very little magic left, especially of higher level slots) until their next chance to pray for more. However, their channel negative energy ability is in play with anything they had left over, as opposed to channel positive (ie healing for the living).

And man, did I get played like a paladin with that shell game. Good job Giant!

Edit: Rawr, ninja'd

[Quartz]

Do we have any indication that Durkula was creating a magic item to replace or replicate the staff? Or scribing scrolls? (Clerics don't automatically get SS.)

[Chei]

If all the above speculation is anywhere accurate, it would also explain why they left these behind. Greg could easily raise another 60+ HD worth of neophyte vampires barely eating into his spell slots if he has the raw materials to do so. If there is a limit, it will be to how many he can control, rather than how many he can raise.

Grey Wolf

Seems like this would be possible. Also, if it is true and Durkon* could raise a small army with each casting, then his best course of action is probably to kill the entire town and raise them.

Death and Destruction for us all, indeed.

Also, regarding the issue of control, it's beginning to seem more and more likely that Durkon*'s Creed of Stone minions also know the spell, because the number of vampires raised on-panel alone likely exceeds Durkon*'s 30-HD limit, assuming he still has at least one of his retinue in thrall.

[Psychronia]

God damn. I completely bought that Durkon* didn't have that spell without the staff.

Excellent fake out.

Who called this? They get all the cookies.

Yeah, bravo Rich. This totally blindsided me. Awesome.

I mean-Well, sh*t.

On the bright side, this hopefully means that spells like Sunburst is a thing now. Also, let's just take Belkar's "more XP for me" stance on this while we fight our way out of this...

I'm not sure how much stronger the OotS has gotten since the battle in Azure City, but Xykon has been getting XP lately, so it can't hurt to play a little catch-up.

[Fyraltari]

Did not see that one coming. At all. My hat to you, Giant.

Soooooo Roy, that ranged magic attack from your sword that you may not have, any chance it can affects several targets at a time if they are all lined up nicely (like in a tunnel) ?

Discussing the possibility od the corpses attacking you while in the middle of said corpses ? Admit it Belkar, you just wanted the extra XP.

Also looks like Minrah is going to have to help Sandstone to get to Valhalla.

Also also I'm counting three Clerics, three civilians and 18 guards. That's a lot of mooks but the Order has fought worse. I am more worried about how many there are with Whisker-in-the-Dark.

[schmunzel]

Well, that's a lot of spell slots right there. Presumably used before dusk, so Greg & co. will have refreshed them, but still, that's a lot of spell slots. Maybe he researched a mass version instead?

Also, the newly risen will be a speed bump and consume some of the order's resources, but I'd have thought Greg would want to carry some of the vampires-to-be with them just to bolster his numbers down the line.

Grey Wolf

I would go so far as to say that he probably wont go out of raw materials anytime soon.
The one limit will be the available number of spell slots.

sch

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Soooooo Roy, that ranged magic attack from your sword that you may not have, any chance it can affects several targets at a time if they are all lined up nicely (like in a tunnel) ?
He doesn't have it. He can throw his sword and then have it come back, but that's not the same.

On the other hand, he does have big boobies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html).


I would go so far as to say that he probably wont go out of raw materials anytime soon.
The one limit will be the available number of spell slots.

sch

I'm afraid my position has changed somewhat since I posted that. It is my belief now that those vampires represent a couple of level-3 slots and 1 level-2 slot. Greg will NOT be limited by the number of slots in the slightest.

GW

[rman]

How much XP will the little Cleric get from this combat? I see a chance for Odin to put his fingers into this in a subtle way.

[Kralzen]

That was a really nice surprise, for me not the Order.

I am just a bit disappointed that it wasn't called "Dawn of Dead", I now they are vampires and not zombies but still.

[Aerysil]

"Well, this looks like a good place to rest."

[arrowed]

Seems like this would be possible. Also, if it is true and Durkon* could raise a small army with each casting, then his best course of action is probably to kill the entire town and raise them.

Death and Destruction for us all, indeed.

Also, regarding the issue of control, it's beginning to seem more and more likely that Durkon*'s Creed of Stone minions also know the spell, because the number of vampires raised on-panel alone likely exceeds Durkon*'s 30-HD limit, assuming he still has at least one of his retinue in thrall.

I don't think Durkon* has to keep these minions in thrall. They are a) notherners that Hel has dominion over the undead spirits of, and b) dwarves. Dwarves willing to die for their town. I suspect the vampire-versions will be more than happy to serve Hel in the same manner as Durkon*.

D* has told Durkon that another vampire spirit might have bucked at Hel's commands, but I feel like such examples will be in the minority, given the severity of Durkon's spirit's spite. The massacred dwarves are highly likely to have 'worst day selves' that hate their home and will happily slaughter the OotS to help Hel's plan.

[schmunzel]

Vampires have studied with Professor Higgins; the vein they drain flows mainly to the brain.

I do not want to start nitpicking here but the vein flows *from* the brain to the heart

sch

[Anarion]

Darn, this is like the Wile E. Coyote moment of the comic. If only Haley hadn't pointed out the problem, I bet none of those corpses would have risen as vampires. :smalltongue:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

O Hel yeah!

- Me, seeing the last panel of this comic.

Bring it on.

[RatElemental]

I think vampire spirits are destroyed. They aren't souls, I think. If undead spirits persisted after death, as souls do, it would be possible to Resurrect them.

It is comforting to know that Durkon earned entry into Valhalla, but it actually raises a question for me:

If a dwarf dies with honor, gets resurrected, and then dies without honor, what happens to the soul then? Hel?

But it is possible to "resurrect" an undead creature. Libris Mortis has a spell for it called Revive Undead.

Whether that spell exists in Ootsworld is another matter. And also the body has to be whole, so if you dust when you die... Welp.

[GudBelkarIsGud]

I'm just gonna throw this out there:

DAYAAAAAAAAM.

THAT was a cliffhanger!

I think I'm a little lost though - wouldn't Not-Durkon have had to prepare individual spells for each person he raised? How many slots could he possibly have?

[Chei]

I don't think Durkon* has to keep these minions in thrall. They are a) notherners that Hel has dominion over the undead spirits of, and b) dwarves. Dwarves willing to die for their town. I suspect the vampire-versions will be more than happy to serve Hel in the same manner as Durkon*.

D* has told Durkon that another vampire spirit might have bucked at Hel's commands, but I feel like such examples will be in the minority, given the severity of Durkon's spirit's spite. The massacred dwarves are highly likely to have 'worst day selves' that hate their home and will happily slaughter the OotS to help Hel's plan.

My issue with the idea that these new spawn are not thralls is mainly the tactics they are using. "Play dead until the Order walks past you, then rise up and bum rush them" is a tactic that I have a hard time believing you could convince 20+ newborn free-willed creatures into executing for you in a short time. As for Hel's plan, I'm even less convinced all of those new vampires want the world to be destroyed with them on it. I doubt they even know the plan, in fact.

Giving those spawn free will raises too many questions about why they're all willing to follow orders. It's a lot simpler all around to assume they're thralls.

[schmunzel]

I'm afraid my position has changed somewhat since I posted that. It is my belief now that those vampires represent a couple of level-3 slots and 1 level-2 slot. Greg will NOT be limited by the number of slots in the slightest.

GW

yep read it since - and from my limited knowledge of the rules it probably even make sense.
Lets call it scary

how many 3rd level spellslots can Durkula have ? 3?? 4??

sch

[arrowed]

My issue with the idea that these new spawn are not thralls is mainly the tactics they are using. "Play dead until the Order walks past you, then rise up and bum rush them" is a tactic that I have a hard time believing you could convince 20+ newborn free-willed creatures into executing for you in a short time. As for Hel's plan, I'm even less convinced all of those new vampires want the world to be destroyed with them on it. I doubt they even know the plan, in fact.

Giving those spawn free will raises too many questions about why they're all willing to follow orders. It's a lot simpler all around to assume they're spawn.

*vaults to other side of fence* Parkour! I might argue that for vampires, pretend to be corpse then attack the unsuspecting living is some kind of undead instinct, but yeah, Occam's Razor and all that :smallbiggrin:

[Lexible]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires. :smallfurious:

i c wut u did there.

[Chei]

yep read it since - and from my limited knowledge of the rules it probably even make sense.
Lets call it scary

how many 3rd level spellslots can Durkula have ? 3?? 4??

sch

A cleric of Durkon*'s level has a base allotment of 4+1 3rd-level spells. That's 4 plus his domain spell, which probably can't be used for the special spell. Durkon* would then have one or two bonus spells at 3rd level: one from having a Wisdom of 16+ (guaranteed) and one from having a Wisdom of 24+ (unlikely but possible).

So the answer to your question for the purposes of this spell is: A LOT BECAUSE HE CAN PREPARE 3RD-LEVEL SPELLS AT 4TH, 5TH, 6TH, AND 7TH-LEVEL SLOTS.

[Jelissei]

Let's see: 13 vampires ahead of them, three lurking behind them they passed in panel 7, two more in panel 5, and eight from the previous strip, most of them passed in panels 1-3.

I make it at least 26 vampires.

Pretty sure it's 32 from the entrance on. All VampireDwarfs have distinctive features so you can recognize them and actually see how fast they (the order) are moving per panel.

edit: recounted, probably 27. Depending if the corpses on panel 3 (page 1101) are the three corpses on the left on panel 7 (page 1100), just re-arranged.

[HandofShadows]

Oh crap. :smalleek::eek::smalleek:

[Fincher]

Regarding the number of vampires, somebody pointed out earlier that the skin color of the bodies changed in the middle of this strip. So there could be as few as 16 that were turned. The ones at the beginning of the tunnel probably weren't so that the order wouldn't notice anything and would let their guards down.

Edit: Well, presumably at least 18. There were a couple near the end that aren't shown that well, but are in the vampire section.

[Matt620]

Now this is a plot twist done correctly. Abruptly, maybe, but definitely done well.

[Chei]

Regarding the number of vampires, somebody pointed out earlier that the skin color of the bodies changed in the middle of this strip. So there could be as few as 16 that were turned. The ones at the beginning of the tunnel probably weren't so that the order wouldn't notice anything and would let their guards down.

Edit: Well, presumably at least 18. There were a couple near the end that aren't shown that well, but are in the vampire section.

One point I would raise against that is that Brother Sandstone is probably the strongest dwarf killed outside those doors; he was capable of casting Thor's Lightning and turning undead at a high enough level to affect Gontor. Leaving him out for the sake of getting people to lower their guard probably wouldn't be as effective as raising him into a new cleric of Hel.

[Ganbatte]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

[KorvinStarmast]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires. :smallfurious:
(1) Where is Wesley Snipes when you need him?
(2) Guessing Twilight wasn't your favorite movie either.

Remember to swing low, guys!! Sweet Chariot ...

I think Belkar failed a Spot check. In other news, Elan's a bard. :smallbiggrin:
Vampires have studied with Professor Higgins; the vein they drain flows mainly to the brain. *groan*
Once again, Haley makes her spot [plot device] roll. That's her niche, and part of why she's a valuable party member.
But, you know, she was raised by a 1st edition thief.... Yeah, we sorta had to be clever or we'd not survive. It was tough, I tell ya, picking them locks in a raging blizzard inside of a volcano, walking up hill to get both in and out of the dungeons ... :smallbiggrin:

Now this is a plot twist done correctly. Abruptly, maybe, but definitely done well. Yeah it is. Bravo, Giant.

[littlebum2002]

If I'm ever judged in the hereafter, can I retain you as my attorney? :smallbiggrin:

That would be a great TV show. A lawyer in a fantasy universe travels to all the afterlives and argues to get his clients into the one they desire.

[Draconi Redfir]

i feel like the vampires were faking being dead the whole time, and as Haley was speaking, they all just kind of thought

"Welp, Jig's up guys! They're on to us, everyone up!"

[Chei]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

I may be wrong, getting old, or both, but you can't go below 0 XP at your current level when spending XP as a resource.

[Riftwolf]

Dang it! I Morbo-ed someone in the last thread about how vampires worked in D&D, and now it turns out there were righter than I!
On the plus side, Durkon* must've burnt through several spell slots to put the Order in this jam. On the downside, if any of the vampires behind them had another runestone, we could end up having an argument over the metaphysics of ownership when two spirits inhabit a single inventory panel... Shortly before our plucky adorable underdog dwarves are slaughtered.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I may be wrong, getting old, or both, but you can't go below 0 XP at your current level when spending XP as a resource.

Since the spell is not creating vampires, merely speeding up their awakening, I fail to see why it'd need XP at all.


On the plus side, Durkon* must've burnt through several spell slots to put the Order in this jam.

As I said, I suspect it's not much more than a level 3 spell not unlike they Animate Undead, which quickens the awakening of up to HD=2*(spell level) vampires.

GW

[Chei]

Since the spell is not creating vampires, merely speeding up their awakening, I fail to see why it'd need XP at all.

GW

Yeah, I'm not suggesting it does, just pointing out why it'd be impossible to lose levels from it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting it does, just pointing out why it'd be impossible to lose levels from it.

True enough; I wasn't intending to come across as disagreeing with you, just providing an alternative take on the question, but I can see how I could be misunderstood. My apologies.

GW

[Snails]

One point I would raise against that is that Brother Sandstone is probably the strongest dwarf killed outside those doors; he was capable of casting Thor's Lightning and turning undead at a high enough level to affect Gontor. Leaving him out for the sake of getting people to lower their guard probably wouldn't be as effective as raising him into a new cleric of Hel.

Unfortunately, being the strongest, it is quite likely he was last to fall. So the option to keep him as an enslaved vampire may not have been available.

I hate to say this, but was I the only that was thinking Roy should be chopping the heads off those corpses, just to be safe? :smallredface:

That they are vampires is pretty much the worst case scenario. But that they could be animated or other kinds of undead created at the hands of a HPoH, to be used as fodder in an ambush, was more my concern.

Of course, our Bardic Knowledge tells us this is likely to be a warm up battle. It does suggest that Greg and friends will have a limited number of spells if the showdown were to happen very soon. I do think that Durkon's mother and/or father will find their way into this tale, so the real showdown may be down the road a bit.

[Boring McReader]

Roy's brain can be one of his worst enemies. But other times it's his best ally. It's sort of an antihero.

Has Blackwing made that wing-finger lecturing gesture before?

[Chei]

True enough; I wasn't intending to come across as disagreeing with you, just providing an alternative take on the question, but I can see how I could be misunderstood. My apologies.

GW

No worries. I didn't engage the question fully so I can see how someone might think I agreed with the premise that there's an XP cost in the first place.

Animate Dead doesn't require XP, just materials, and I'm pretty much onboard with the idea that the Instant Vampirism spell is a close relative of it.

[JumboWheat01]

Does it at least take XP to learn a spell that's not part of your spell list? I'm guessing it does to research it, but the spell was already researched, Greg just had to learn it.

[Jasdoif]

Also, regarding the issue of control, it's beginning to seem more and more likely that Durkon*'s Creed of Stone minions also know the spell, because the number of vampires raised on-panel alone likely exceeds Durkon*'s 30-HD limit, assuming he still has at least one of his retinue in thrall.Not necessarily. If all the spell does is accelerate the normal process, then they would be enslaved to the vampire that killed them rather than HPoH (unless of course he was the one that killed them). The cap on control is twice the vampire's dice and daisy chaining control is specifically allowed, so if HPoH had the spell prepared multiple times (and if the spells affect multiple targets), he could have been recursively building a cursed army.

[St Fan]

Has Blackwing made that wing-finger lecturing gesture before?

Yes, plenty of times. Gesturing with his wings is a definite habit of his.

And Blackwing shouldn't be one to mock the night vision of humans and halflings... aren't diurnal birds like ravens rather bad at it too?

[Chei]

Unfortunately, being the strongest, it is quite likely he was last to fall. So the option to keep him as an enslaved vampire may not have been available.

Last to fall could mean he was the first one raised. I doubt the vampires were raising as they killed; they probably got all the killing done at once, then went back and raised.


Not necessarily. If all the spell does is accelerate the normal process, then they would be enslaved to the vampire that killed them rather than HPoH (unless of course he was the one that killed them). The cap on control is twice the vampire's dice and daisy chaining control is specifically allowed, so if HPoH had the spell prepared multiple times (and if the spells affect multiple targets), he could have been recursively building a cursed army.

Absolutely true, I overlooked that bit. This would also fit with Durkon* sitting out the last few killings; he'd reached the point where any further vampires he killed would either be free-willed or force him to release an existing one.

[Arin]

Anyone else think this would be an amazingly (in)convenient time for the Dark Trio to pull V out for their approximately 5 minute small hiatus?

[Jethro_Thrull]

i feel like the vampires were faking being dead the whole time,

Well no, they were quite dead. They were just faking being undead. ;)

[Coolio Wolfus]

As Elan: 'Eye say we have a bit of an eyesight problem...'

Frame 1:
V's eyes are not pink from their 'See Invisibility' spell, this is corrected later in the strip.

Comic 1026 Goliath Falls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1026.html), 1st Frame of the 2nd Page:
Roy's sword is flaring green but his eyes are black rather than the correct 'power enhanced' green.

[alwaysbebatman]

Anyone else think this would be an amazingly (in)convenient time for the Dark Trio to pull V out for their approximately 5 minute small hiatus?

Nah. It's a mook ambush. qua "ambush" it is very "ambushy" (startling,) but qua "mook" it is highly "mookish" (weak.)

They'll pull the elf out when it's important, which ain't now.

[Doug Lampert]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

The staff wasn't an artifact, it was made by Malack so it's just an ordinary staff casting an ordinary clerical spell. And why should a spell that simply hastens slightly a natural process have an XP cost?

Spawn powers are silly strong, but it's the spawn power, which is pure rulebook that's strong, having it work a bit faster is just upgrading Vampires to something lots of undead can already do.


Does it at least take XP to learn a spell that's not part of your spell list? I'm guessing it does to research it, but the spell was already researched, Greg just had to learn it.

It never takes XP to learn a spell. You can't learn a spell that's not on your list (baring a feat or special ability), but researching a spell can add it to your list and just takes money and time. Clerics have knowledge of all spells available to their god, it's never specified in the rules how this interacts with spell research and spell research is basically rules for how to houserule in a new spell.

It works how the DM (or in this case Rich) says it works, it's a lot easier to see this working that Familicide. Animate dead or create undead are the obvious template spells, and none of them have an XP cost.

AKA creating a powerful undead with a spell has no XP cost. I completely fail to see why making undead who are going to show up anyway show up a bit faster should have an XP cost.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, plenty of times. Gesturing with his wings is a definite habit of his.

And Blackwing shouldn't be one to mock the night vision of humans and halflings... aren't diurnal birds like ravens rather bad at it too?

Familiars become magical beasts, magical beasts have darkvision 60'.

[Gift Jeraff]

Comic 1026 Goliath Falls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1026.html), 1st Frame of the 2nd Page:
Roy's sword is flaring green but his eyes are black rather than the correct 'power enhanced' green.

That might just be an art updated version of the "normal" green energy proc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html) it gained from the starmetal reforge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) and not the Legacy boost seen versus Durkon.

[ti'esar]

Yikes. It's funny - I was just thinking the other day about how curiously casually "Durkon" had sacrificed the staff, but I still never saw this coming.

I suspect these particular vamps won't be too much trouble, though. The real threat is just how many more the Creepy Crew could be making.

[Ganbatte]

The staff wasn't an artifact, it was made by Malack so it's just an ordinary staff casting an ordinary clerical spell. And why should a spell that simply hastens slightly a natural process have an XP cost?

Because the effect is stupid strong and the weakness of having to wait three days existed exactly to prevent this kind of situation, so having to pay a hefty price to circumvent it should be a given and not so easily ignored.
I bought Malack's staff because we had no way of knowing just how much time and money he put into its creation, and that was ONE vampire, but here? A few casts to make an army of vampires? Ridiculous.


Spawn powers are silly strong, but it's the spawn power, which is pure rulebook that's strong, having it work a bit faster is just upgrading Vampires to something lots of undead can already do.

Again, because vampires are stupid strong compared to most undeads. Nobody cares about a few zombie spawns or skeletons popping up within minutes because they're weak. Imagine if Xykon could turn people into liches just as easily, everyone would cry game-breaking OP and demand an equivalent price to do it to the GM.

[Rack]

This feels like a Chekhov's gun for taking Durkon down with sun damage. Taking Durkon's staff away just so you can surprise reveal he can still cast a homebrew spell isn't all that cool or interesting. But as a setup for giving him a major weakness? I can see that being much more interesting.

[orrion]

Dear Vaarsuvius,

I hope you learned Sunburst in Tinkertown.

Sincerely,

The Vampires Who Are Gonna Kill You.

[Fyraltari]

He doesn't have it. He can throw his sword and then have it come back, but that's not the same.

He was trying to get one in 1045, so I expect him to get one eventually. Now would be an appropriate time for that to happen (or be revealed to have happened off-panel) but I fully admit that it is not likely as there will surely be better moments for that sort of thing. Plus it would ruin the effect of that Cliffhanger.


Yeah, my assumption would be that Durkula taught the spell to his other cleric minions, in order to get enough vampires going for the ambush. That would leave enough spells free for the murder spree.

In 1087, Female Dwarf Vampire told the Low Priest that "Everything was ready" which I just realized means they were setting that ambush up so yes he did.


What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

This is an universe were the rules are more like guidelines for the author from what I gathered around here. Villains always have it easier than the heroes, that's like storytelling... 108, I guess ?

[Jasdoif]

Clerics have knowledge of all spells available to their god, it's never specified in the rules how this interacts with spell research and spell research is basically rules for how to houserule in a new spell.

It works how the DM (or in this case Rich) says it works....Which in this case is non-core spells normally have to be researched.

[Fincher]

One point I would raise against that is that Brother Sandstone is probably the strongest dwarf killed outside those doors; he was capable of casting Thor's Lightning and turning undead at a high enough level to affect Gontor. Leaving him out for the sake of getting people to lower their guard probably wouldn't be as effective as raising him into a new cleric of Hel.

If he were more valuable than the element of surprise, wouldn't it be a bad idea to leave him right in front of the entrance where the order could attack him unimpeded? That's betting a lot on them failing to notice that he's a vampire and not attacking just to be sure.

Or maybe you're arguing that Undurkon's plan isn't the best? That may be true, but if you look at Sandstone's skin in the previous strip and compare it to the vampires in this one, or to Undurkon himself...unless vampires have a previously unmentioned ability to change their skin color at will, it would seem that Sandstone isn't one. I'm just trying to speculate on why Undurkon might have chosen to leave the ones closest to the entrance untouched.

[keybounce]

I'll confirm that. I was in your game once. A building fell on us in the first town.


Was it the Roc inn? Did you survive?

(we had a punning GM, but we got out of the building before it collapsed on us.)

Well Played Giant ++

[Riftwolf]

Because the effect is stupid strong and the weakness of having to wait three days existed exactly to prevent this kind of situation, so having to pay a hefty price to circumvent it should be a given and not so easily ignored.
I bought Malack's staff because we had no way of knowing just how much time and money he put into its creation, and that was ONE vampire, but here? A few casts to make an army of vampires? Ridiculous.

Again, because vampires are stupid strong compared to most undeads. Nobody cares about a few zombie spawns or skeletons popping up within minutes because they're weak. Imagine if Xykon could turn people into liches just as easily, everyone would cry game-breaking OP and demand an equivalent price to do it to the GM.

They're not full vampires unless over 5HD. More likely they're vampire spawns, which are on par with wights, from memory. It's not quite the same as them all being full vampires.

Fast-spawning vampires appear in other stories and I think the homebrew spell is Richs way of saying 'okay, that's not how vampires work in D&D, but it's how I need them to work in my story'. And he got a good cliffhanger panel out of it to boot.

I'm pretty sure these mooks will be beaten in a series of one-panel takedowns, putting them at the same power level as the Godsmoot vampires.

[drazen]

I actually did have my nagging suspicions about exactly which spell(s) Durkon was researching out of the staff, but didn't think he'd be able to make nearly *that* many spawn. Yikes.

[alwaysbebatman]

Again, because vampires are stupid strong compared to most undeads. Nobody cares about a few zombie spawns or skeletons popping up within minutes because they're weak. Imagine if Xykon could turn people into liches just as easily, everyone would cry game-breaking OP and demand an equivalent price to do it to the GM.

They can't be that strong, the limitation on the cast is based on the sum of HD, if it's analogous to a standard zombie spell, as everyone is guessing. This also explains why they didn't vamp Sandstone. They didn't want to waste HD on a powerful Vampire, they just wanted a LOT of weak ones, to freak out the heroes and wear them down a little before the real battle.

Xykon could create unlimited liches if he had the raw materials (11th-level minimum casters) and he wanted there to be more liches. Well, technically they'd create themselves, but he doesn't and he doesn't.

That's the thing about undead that are actually powerful. Even if they happen to share your alignment, you can't count on them sharing your goals. (Or in the lich example, they might share your goal, but for them self, not for you!)

[ReturnOfTheKing]

I wish I had something more insightful to say than "Well, crap. That is a lot of vampires."

Alas.

[Jasdoif]

If he were more valuable than the element of surprise, wouldn't it be a bad idea to leave him right in front of the entrance where the order could attack him unimpeded? That's betting a lot on them failing to notice that he's a vampire and not attacking just to be sure.

Or maybe you're arguing that Undurkon's plan isn't the best? That may be true, but if you look at Sandstone's skin in the previous strip and compare it to the vampires in this one, or to Undurkon himself...unless vampires have a previously unmentioned ability to change their skin color at will, it would seem that Sandstone isn't one. I'm just trying to speculate on why Undurkon might have chosen to leave the ones closest to the entrance untouched.If you're into baseless guessing....

If the spell has a "can accelerate the raising of undead whose total HD don't exceed your caster level" line, HPoH is using a wand/scroll he created on the way over, and he had to cut down on the caster level to be able to finish the item before reaching Tinkertown/Zenith Temple, and Brother Sandstone's level alone exceeded that HD limit....It would be entirely conceivable that he could fast-raise a bunch of vampire spawn but not necessarily every vampire.

That's a lotta ifs, though.

[Goblin_Priest]

Now this is a great plot twist that completely caught me by surprise! :)

Sure invalidates the theories of "well, in a straight up fight, team Hel stands absolutely zero chance against a larger group of higher leveled PCs".

[pendell]

:smalleek:

Well, that was unexpected.

On the other hand, it implies that Hel's Minion has the traditional achilles heel of sunlight. If we can get him exposed, that'll wipe him out very quickly indeed.

Nice bit of misdirection there, Giant!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jasdoif]

Sure invalidates the theories of "well, in a straight up fight, team Hel stands absolutely zero chance against a larger group of higher leveled PCs".That's silly; the Vampiric Cabal bringing in backup means there's no longer a straight-up fight to be had. :smalltongue:

[Tom Lehmann]

Nicely played, Rich. Very nicely played.

[Wysper]

That seems like an awful amount of spell slots to use, not to mention I thought they had to be Drained to come back as a vamp.

Personally, I think this is an excellent opportunity for Roy to test out his new power with his Ancestral Weapon.

[Doug Lampert]

Because the effect is stupid strong and the weakness of having to wait three days existed exactly to prevent this kind of situation, so having to pay a hefty price to circumvent it should be a given and not so easily ignored.
I bought Malack's staff because we had no way of knowing just how much time and money he put into its creation, and that was ONE vampire, but here? A few casts to make an army of vampires? Ridiculous.



Again, because vampires are stupid strong compared to most undeads. Nobody cares about a few zombie spawns or skeletons popping up within minutes because they're weak. Imagine if Xykon could turn people into liches just as easily, everyone would cry game-breaking OP and demand an equivalent price to do it to the GM.

Zombies and Skeletons don't have spawn.

Shadows have spawn, incorporeal, touch attack strength drain, spawn in seconds, spawn are at full strength regardless of the creature killed with no limit on control, no dependence on the killed creature being high level.

Spectres have spawn, incorporeal, touch attack that drains two levels, spawn in seconds, no limit on control, no dependence on the killed creature being high level.

Wraiths have spawn, LOOK! It's another incorporeal creature with a touch drain attack (constitution this time) that spawns in seconds, no limit on control, no dependence on the killed creature being high level.

Wights have spawn, FINALLY, something corporeal, so it takes full damage (like a vampire) and it needs to hit normal AC to drain (like a vampire), gosh, it's even the same CR as a vampire spawn! No limit on control, and no long delay before rising, but at least it's not blatantly better than vampire spawn.

Meanwhile vampire spawn, what the vast majority of vampire kills become, don't even have a spawn power.

Pretty much everything else with spawn is horrifically dangerous, not a skeleton or zombie on the list, Wights are about the weakest. One Spectre with half an hour in the city and Our Heroes have no chance at all. That's not a weak undead.

[Doug Lampert]

Which in this case is non-core spells normally have to be researched.

Specifically, according to your quote "and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it."

That "until" was fulfilled by Malack when he researched it. The obscure became irrelevant when Greg knew it existed already.

Again, the default is that all clerics have access to all cleric spells, there's no specific rule that this is not true for researched cleric spells.

Presumably you need to be know the spell exists to ask your god for it which means "obscure" is still relevant even after being researched. And clearly in the OotSvers you need something more (because Greg needed to do something), but by the book if you know the spell exists and ask your god for it you get it, and nothing in your quote actually contradicts that, the only reason we know ANYTHING more than knowing it exists is required is that Greg did in fact need to do something.

How much time and effort does it take to "learn" a cleric spell you know exists? Rich's quote doesn't say, and there's no rules reason to assume it's hard. Can Greg now easily teach the spell he now knows to other clerics? Who knows, the only rule for clerics learning spells is that they know them all. Anything more is Rich adding to the rules in a spot they don't cover and where he hasn't told us how it works.

[Noodz]

This is bad. Incredibly bad. It's an almost worst case scenario.

If there's something i learned playing Baldur's Gate series games is that YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER get into melee with monster with energy drain without heavy cleric support. By 3.5 RAW, each one of these spawn inflict a negative level. This is bad enough for warriors, but is especially critical for casters, who LOSE one daily spell of the highest level per negative level. I'm looking at Varsuvius here, but Elan also stand to lose his high level spell slots.

And the order is stuck in cramped tunnel brimming with spawn, who despite being relatively weak, inflict energy drain on their slam attack.

So it is reasonable to expect that Varsuvius will have to use the big guns from the start. A very prudent opening spell would be forcecage around the casters, or really, around anyone who is not Roy or Belkar, but at 10'x10'x10' positioning can be tricky. Another necessary spell is to forcewall the back of the order so at least they can face enemies only on one side. Regardless, these are all valuable spells that will be missed in the final confrontation against Greg. So all in all, a very smart move from Greg, who might even have the opportunity to pray to Hel and recharge all slots.

And allow me to congratulate the Giant. I know how hard it can be to properly understand DnD mechanics, but you go far beyond that and write villains that make very good use of their own resources. Few things grate me more than having DnD villains with spectacular accomplishment and superhuman attributes, but severely lacking when it comes to make use of their skills. And you do that on top of creating the most amazing narrative that i ever read in a webcomic.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Well, crap. We got an infestation here, and that's a long-term problem.

Better kill all the vampires while their numbers are relatively low, we don't want a "starlings in central park" type situation where it spreads too far and gets too big to ever fix.

Calling it now, the Order's not going to get all of the spawn, and vampirism becomes a major problem in Dwarven lands for years to come, if not a catastrophe representing a major loss to the forces of good (not unlike the loss of Azure City):smallfrown:.

[Wanderer]

:smalleek: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...

[Gift Jeraff]

Were the runes in #962 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html) ever deciphered?

[alwaysbebatman]

Again, the default is that all clerics have access to all cleric spells, there's no specific rule that this is not true for researched cleric spells.



This misconception comes up every time people talk about Malack's original spells. But it is absolutely contradicted by RAW:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Divine_Spells



A divine spellcaster also can research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others.


So, presumably, Malack didn't share these spells with Durkon, so I imagine he had to research them all over again. With the advantage of having the spell itself in staff form to use as template.

[Yendor]

Were the runes in #962 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html) ever deciphered?

According to my notes:
Still wasting your time decoding this there are no secret messages

Oh, and I did check and saw a few people speculating that Durcon was actually researching the vampire spell, as far back as when he took Gontor out foras lunch, but it doesn't look like the theory gained a lot of traction.

[IntelectPaladin]

Holy Hopping Harmful Health-hurting High-end Hairy Hideous Horrifying Ham-fisted Harvengers!
It seems that this was durkula's plan all along, then.
I did not expect to be horrified. I imagine that there are only more like these to come.
Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a nice day!

[alwaysbebatman]

Re the title: Wouldn't "Raising Suspicion" make more sense as a pun? Could it be a typo?

[goodpeople25]

Re the title: Wouldn't "Raising Suspicion" make more sense as a pun? Could it be a typo?
How so?

This way makes (more) sense to me. The risen from the grave vampires adds to what Haley suspects (aka outright confirms it) making the suspicion rise upwards. Pretty similar to raise but has an added angle of it being an understatement, or however you describe that sort of humour.

[Going Hereward]

Not pictured is the resulting game pause as Haley's player tries to argue for getting (herself at least) a surprise round for revealing they were already caught in an ambush.

[BriarHobbit]

This is really quite impressive. That is a lot of vampire spawn. I am guessing that there are vampire spawn in the back as well because who can say "no" to more evil clerics of Hel.

[PontificatusRex]

Man, how many spell slots does Durkula have anyway? All those vampires, that must be a really low-level spell - not what I would have expected.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Man, we start with Belkar making an actual well-reasoned argument, countered by Roy, and politely accepting the correction. Then Haley started talking...

I think I might need a teddy bear tonight. Or a SUN bear.

[alwaysbebatman]

Man, how many spell slots does Durkula have anyway? All those vampires, that must be a really low-level spell - not what I would have expected.

The prevailing theory is:


The Rapid Vampirization spell likely uses Animate Dead as its template.
Therefore it's a third level clerical spell...
So all of Durkon*'s Vampire clerics could cast it from as many 3rd or higher slots they wanted to devote...
AND, each casting would accelerate a number of Vampires whose HD are no more than DOUBLE the caster level of the vamp cleric who cast it...
So.... yeah, that could add up.


It all depends on how many slots they wanted to save for combat spells, or if they intended to rely entirely on vampiric abilities...

[Ruck]

Of all the possibilities, I don't think I saw anyone guess "Durkon was researching Malack's Vampire-B-Quik spell instead of Protection From Daylight," certainly not me, so bravo to the Giant. It seems so obvious now.


"Well, this looks like a good place to rest."

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of this. A callback all the way to #5!


I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

OOTS runs by drama as well as D&D. It follows D&D rules to the letter, until it doesn't. If you're complaining this doesn't follow the rules to the letter (which doesn't even seem to be the case, so much as you are complaining that you think this interpretation of the rules results in an imbalanced situation), I expect Rich's response would be roughly along the lines of "I don't give a tinker's damn."


If a dwarf dies with honor, gets resurrected, and then dies without honor, what happens to the soul then? Hel?

I've wondered this too, but I go both ways on the question. On the one hand, I think "yes" because life for dwarves is unfair and that would be "the most frustrating way to rules lawyer it." On the other hand, Thor has shown an aptitude for arguing edge cases, and "He already died once with honor, it doesn't say every death has to be with honor!" seems like another one he could win.


The skill is called Sense Motive, and Hunch is a DC 20, so I'm thinking she probably does have quite a few points invested in it. She specializes in figuring out what the other side is planning, so it should come as no surprise she can do this - no need to suggest she's reading the author's notes through the fourth wall.

GW

Yes, this. I wouldn't call her the best fourth-wall breaker-- though she has done that, that's probably Elan-- but she's arguably the Order's most creative thinker and definitely the best at sussing out how other people are thinking.

[alwaysbebatman]

It all depends on how many slots they wanted to save for combat spells, or if they intended to rely entirely on vampiric abilities...

I want to caveat the thing I said. I forgot for a moment: dusk passed during this. So, they could have:


Allotted ALL of their 3rd or higher slots to Rapid Vamp yesterday, knowing they had no high level opposition to worry about.
Then once dusk came, fully restocked on combat spells.
OR restocked on Rapid Vamp and just made EVEN MORE Vamps!
(Or, more likely, split the difference.)

[JoeyTheNeko]

who honestly didn't see this coming? I guess I am most like haley. I never thought he was researched protection from daylight since the plan involved the subterran dwarf nations.

[alwaysbebatman]

It's obvious in retrospect. But everybody else admits to not seeing it coming.

[Jasdoif]

I think I might need a teddy bear tonight. Or a SUN bear.I've got a teddy bear that's like a continuous light and death ward that also keeps undead with six or fewer hit dice from approaching, you want it? (I'll worry about replacing it the next time I can't get out of going to the Negative Energy Plane for research....)

[F.Harr]

Once again:

Sneaky People: 1217.9
Lawful People: 2.

[goodpeople25]

Once again:

Sneaky People: 1217.9
Lawful People: 2.
But it's okay because they have the great uniter that people from all alignments, sneakingness, cleanliness, ect, ect, share...
The ability and desire to spout off meaningless numbers and statisitics! not your post just the tendency in general seems pretty constant

[B. Dandelion]

It's such a shame that Haley didn't do better in the favorite character tournament.

I wish I could claim I'd seen it coming, but I definitely didn't. It made for a better strip that I didn't, though. That's an epic Oh Crap moment right there.

[madock345]

I can't believe that we're this far into the comments and not one person has pointed out that That's not how the Light spell works.

[Centaur]

You know, the first time I read this I didn't even realise there was a second page to this one (reading it on a laptop which perfectly cut off the comic at the bottom of the first page), and it was only when I came to this thread and read the comments that I went back and saw that big splash panel... :smallsmile:

You… failed your Spot (splash page) check?

[Kardwill]

As one of my old players might say, "Oh! It's on like donkey kong!", while another rubbed his hands gleefully at the prospect of a crazy battle. A third might have had their jaw drop at the crazy plotting the DM unleashed.

Mine would scream and run like scared toddlers. They are really NOT fans of the concept of level drain, and started D&D at a time (red and blue boxes for Basic D&D) where a vampire's touch was a -2 levels sentence :smalltongue:

EDIT : And damn, that's a LOT of dwarven corpses. With those we saw last week, that would be what, at least 30-35, including quite a few civvie-looking ones? I thought they ambushed a small group that was exiting the temple, but it's possible they started a civilian slaughter in that corridor to draw the temple guards out, and trap everyone in there :smalleek:

[Garwain]

So, basically Haley is smarter than the whole forum... What a wonderful writing.

[Kardwill]

So, basically Haley is smarter than the whole forum... What a wonderful writing.

Well, she IS the party thief. It's her job to be paranoid about traps and ambush ^^

[Ganbatte]

OOTS runs by drama as well as D&D. It follows D&D rules to the letter, until it doesn't. If you're complaining this doesn't follow the rules to the letter

Do not worry then, because that is not what I'm doing.
I'm just gonna sit back and wait for the next strip where Vaarsuvius discovers that the Fireball spell has suddenly become infinite in slots and thus frying all the vampires just as incredibly easily as they were created, and tinkers be damned.

Edit: hell maybe Roy's sword might turn into a lightsaber too, I mean, great drama there too.

[ti'esar]

Edit: hell maybe Roy's sword might turn into a lightsaber too, I mean, great drama there too.

...you say that like it's not already a glowing green energy sword.

[Kardwill]

Do not worry then, because that is not what I'm doing.
I'm just gonna sit back and wait for the next strip where Vaarsuvius discovers that the Fireball spell has suddenly become infinite in slots and thus frying all the vampires just as incredibly easily as they were created, and tinkers be damned.

Edit: hell maybe Roy's sword might turn into a lightsaber too, I mean, great drama there too.

What is your argument, though?
We knew the spell existed (Malack had it in his staff), and Greg was created by the spell and had access to the staff, so saying he researched it during his downtime aboard the ship is not such of a stretch (although the timing might be tense, we saw Durkon research his Mass Death Ward spell in one day, so there is precedent for it).

So now, we have to ask "how many times might he have used the spell that day?"
New clerical spells can be "shared" if the researcher wants it, so there is a fair chance he taught it to his minions, or even added it to Hel's Death domain (after all, he's her High Priest and direct agent on the material plane, not just some backwater country cleric).
There have been a few valid points upthread about having the "speed up" spell be 2nd or 3rd level, meaning 4 mid-to-high level vampire clerics can spam quite a few of them. 3.5 Clerics have a LOT of spell slots, so casting the spell 20-25 times is not a stretch if they devoted the spellslots for it (I say 25 because, although there are many more dead dwarves here, the first corpses in the corridor, including brother Sandstone, had a more lively skin color and were probably "normal" dead. Bonus point, that way, even if the OOTS had been suspicious, they would have checked/staked the first dead bodies, see they're normal corpses, and given up before coming into the vampire killzone)

Now, next point, "should the spell have a cost?" (precious component, difficult ritual or XP)
There are arguments for and against it. On one hand, creating a permanent, powerful mook under your complete control should have a cost (it's pretty close to creating a familiar or a magic item, after all).
But on the other hand, the real difficult/costly stuff would be to create the spawn, and it's already a free ability (which is kinda cheesy. I mean, in litterature, even Dracula had to invest some effort into creating his spawns. But it's the rule as writen). The spell just makes an existing power more powerfull, it does not create it out of thin air.

Sure, speeding up the process is huge (the "several days before transformation" is there because of the source material, but also because it offers a time frame where you can "save" someone from turning into a monster, and to avoid the "vampire strikes in a market, city is doomed" kind of attacks we see here), and kinda cheap. As a DM, I would not have allowed the spell in my campaign. But other DMs would say otherwise, and it's obviously a custom spell introduced by the DM to create a plot point, and never, EVER to fall into the hands of min-maxing players ^^

[Ruck]

Do not worry then, because that is not what I'm doing.
I'm just gonna sit back and wait for the next strip where Vaarsuvius discovers that the Fireball spell has suddenly become infinite in slots and thus frying all the vampires just as incredibly easily as they were created, and tinkers be damned.

Edit: hell maybe Roy's sword might turn into a lightsaber too, I mean, great drama there too.

It sounds like that's exactly what you're doing.

[skaddix]

That seems like an awful amount of spell slots to use, not to mention I thought they had to be Drained to come back as a vamp.

Personally, I think this is an excellent opportunity for Roy to test out his new power with his Ancestral Weapon.

Could have learned a mass version?

Nice Bluff Though.

[warmachine]

Blackwing is cheeky. Ravens only get low light vision, so they can't see in the dark either.

[Fyraltari]

Do not worry then, because that is not what I'm doing.
I'm just gonna sit back and wait for the next strip where Vaarsuvius discovers that the Fireball spell has suddenly become infinite in slots and thus frying all the vampires just as incredibly easily as they were created, and tinkers be damned.

Edit: hell maybe Roy's sword might turn into a lightsaber too, I mean, great drama there too.

Again drama happens when things are difficult for the heroes and easier for the villains.
If it requires a bit of rule-tweaking on the side so be it. Did you not listen to Tarquin on 821 ?

[Curupira]

Blackwing is cheeky. Ravens only get low light vision, so they can't see in the dark either.

Yes, but he's not an ordinary raven. Doesn't wizard familiars get their masters' perception bonuses and perks (and V is an elf)? :smallconfused:

[Gordreg]

Who's that in the bottom-right of the last panel, below Elan? It kind-of looks like Durkon - is it Durkula, or just another Vampire dwarf that's risen up behind them?

[warmachine]

Yes, but he's not an ordinary raven. Doesn't wizard familiars get their masters' perception bonuses and perks (and V is an elf)? :smallconfused:
Familiars get their master's hit dice, skill ranks, base attack bonus, base saving throws etc. but not other features. Besides, elves have low light vision, not darkvision.

[Sir_Norbert]

So, basically Haley is smarter than the whole forum... What a wonderful writing.

Nope. I don't have time to dig it out, but I definitely saw at least one person guess this twist.

[Manty5]

So, basically Haley is smarter than the whole forum... What a wonderful writing.

I'd be more impressed with her foresight if she hadn't been completely and utterly suckered by Durkula's identity before the reveal.

[Peelee]

I've got a teddy bear that's like a continuous light and death ward that also keeps undead with six or fewer hit dice from approaching, you want it? (I'll worry about replacing it the next time I can't get out of going to the Negative Energy Plane for research....)
I fully expect a catch. Like, it's an actual bear named Teddy or something.

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?
Ten gold on "Ganbette gonna be pretty angry." Additional five on "she doesn't know the rule about spell research despite being used and mentioned several times in-comic."

[NecroDancer]

The art for this comic has really come far. That last panal is amazing!

[hagnat]

New comic is up.

and so are a bunch of vampires

[Gift Jeraff]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html
Seems possible the first panel referred to placing the corpses and/or casting the spell.

[Lord Torath]

I think I'm a little lost though - wouldn't Not-Durkon have had to prepare individual spells for each person he raised? How many slots could he possibly have?It takes 3+ charges from the staff to make a mummy ("a couple" = 2-3; "a few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)" generally implies 3-5, and Tarkie strikes me as lawful enough to use the correct term). No mention of how many charges are required to raise Durkon as a Vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html). I also don't know how the number of charges relates to the level of the spell.


Re the title: Wouldn't "Raising Suspicion" make more sense as a pun? Could it be a typo?Rise is something a thing does itself. "I rise from my bed." Raise is something done to something else. "I raise my hand." "My hand rises when I raise it". The vampires are rising from the tunnel floor, so "Rising Suspicion" works. There's "raising the dead", but oft times people talk about "the dead rising". It could probably go either way.

[Kish]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?
Nobody has to play by the "you lose a level from casting a non-core spell lots of times" rule, because that rule doesn't exist.

Nor does anybody have to play by your assumptions. That is: At sixth level or higher it would be highly unlikely that Greg could prepare the spell that many times. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that the spell is no higher than fifth level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#fifthLevelClericSpells). You can assume it's eighth level and gnash your teeth about Rich's letting Greg godmode, but that doesn't change the fact that the only rule violation is coming from inside the houseyour head.

[KorvinStarmast]

They are really NOT fans of the concept of level drain, and started D&D at a time (red and blue boxes for Basic D&D) where a vampire's touch was a -2 levels sentence :smalltongue:
In those days, I don't recall there being Vampire Spawn as a separate and lower level Vamp. It was Vamp, and eventually one slain by a vamp became a vamp under t heir control. I think even 1e left a lot of detail open until, maybe MM II?? (Memory foggy)
I'll need to take a look ... for some reason, I think vampire spawn formally entered D&D in 2e, but I may not be remembering that right.


Rise is something a thing does itself. "I rise from my bed." Raise is something done to something else. "I raise my hand." "My hand rises when I raise it". The vampires are rising from the tunnel floor, so "Rising Suspicion" works. There's "raising the dead", but oft times people talk about "the dead rising". It could probably go either way. Nicely explained, for native English speakers and non native English speakers alike. :smallcool:

[The Pilgrim]

I'm revisiting strips 1086 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) and 1087 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html), and I have the feeling that there is an implicit hiatus between them in which Greg's underlings did in fact cast the "hasten vampire awakening" spell on the victims. ("Everything's ready, Master", "Excellent. Thank you")

[b_jonas]

I assumed (b) to be the case, regardless. Is there a usual level range between a spell and its mass version? I.e. if the single target is level 3, would the mass version be, say, 5? It differs between spells, for balance reasons. However, I personally think that in case of this quick vampire rising spell, the difference would only be one or two levels.

This is because balance-wise the spell seems analogous to the Summon Monster spells. Those spells quickly create monsters that help you by fighting and obey you. Quickly raising vampire spawns to help you seems similar enough to that. There's a whole ladder of these spells, one for each spell level starting from 1. If the Summon Monster 5 spell can summon a particular monster, such as a Bearded Devil, then the spell one level higher, Summon monster 6, can summon 1d3 monsters of that type of monster, and the spell two higher, Summon Monster 7, can summon 1+1d4 monsters of that type.

I have to admit though that another similar spell, Planar Ally, works differently. The level 4 spell Lesser Planar Ally lets you call one Bearded Devil, the level 6 spell Planar Ally lets you call two Bearded Devils, and the level 8 spell Greater Planar Ally lets you call three Bearded Devils.

[Diashi]

Bring me my Brown Pants!

[Breccia]

Round Two

FIGHT!

It's times like this, when I wonder how far in advance the plot is actually scripted. I've been a DM for *cough* years and I've never once put out a long-term plot twist like this. And this ain't exactly the first time, either.

I mean, there are two options.
A) This twist was really planned this far ahead, or
B) Upon review of older work, the option was noticed, and then used.

I mean, both are good options from either a game-running or writing perspective.

[Kish]

Familiars get their master's hit dice, skill ranks, base attack bonus, base saving throws etc. but not other features. Besides, elves have low light vision, not darkvision.
As previously mentioned, all magical beasts, which means all familiars, have darkvision.

[GM_3826]

Oh ****.

Well, the Order is boned.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I see everyone missed the 'sun bear' pun. Man, these vampires have really thrown the Playground for a loop.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It differs between spells, for balance reasons. However, I personally think that in case of this quick vampire rising spell, the difference would only be one or two levels.

This is because balance-wise the spell seems analogous to the Summon Monster spells. Those spells quickly create monsters that help you by fighting and obey you. Quickly raising vampire spawns to help you seems similar enough to that. There's a whole ladder of these spells, one for each spell level starting from 1. If the Summon Monster 5 spell can summon a particular monster, such as a Bearded Devil, then the spell one level higher, Summon monster 6, can summon 1d3 monsters of that type of monster, and the spell two higher, Summon Monster 7, can summon 1+1d4 monsters of that type.

I have to admit though that another similar spell, Planar Ally, works differently. The level 4 spell Lesser Planar Ally lets you call one Bearded Devil, the level 6 spell Planar Ally lets you call two Bearded Devils, and the level 8 spell Greater Planar Ally lets you call three Bearded Devils.

Again, I'm afraid I have abandoned this line of thought. I have reviewed the spell list, and I think that the quicken vampire awakening is modeled most likely on the 3rd level spell Animate Dead, which awakens a set HD of undead all at once, so it is "mass animate" already.

Now, we can quibble about what level the Quicken Vampire Awakening spell might be, but given that the vampires already exist, and all the spell is doing is just move up the timetable of them wakening, I would not be surprised if Rich had pegged it at level 3 as well.

Awaken Vampire
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more newly created vampires touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell hastens the process of Create Spawn by eliminating the requirement for a burial and 1d4 days of waiting. The vampire awakens immediately. If the new vampire is under the command of an existing vampire, they take control of the vampire. If the new vampire is free-willed, this spell does not give you control over them.

A vampire awoken through this spell does not have a coffin, and until they claim an empty one for themselves, they are destroyed if reduced to 0 HP. A coffin is claimed by resting in it uninterrupted for at least 8 hours. A coffin can only be claimed by one vampire at a time.

Regardless of the type of vampire you awaken with this spell, you can’t awaken more HD of vampire than twice your caster level with a single casting of Awaken Vampire. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

Material Component
You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the vampire into the mouth of each corpse you intend to awaken. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I see everyone missed the 'sun bear' pun. Man, these vampires have really thrown the Playground for a loop.

That was a pun?

[Kardwill]

I mean, there are two options.
A) This twist was really planned this far ahead, or
B) Upon review of older work, the option was noticed, and then used.


In my experience, in a game, option B is both easier and quite often more satisfying. Especially if a player threw the idea around and you grab it and run with it because it sounds cool (Meaning that if this would be my campaign, it would be Haley's player who would have come up with the idea, and I steal it gleefuly when I hear it ^^)

[GeometryGuru]

This comic was a perfect, "No it can't be. It IS! No wait! Yes it was!" situation for me.

[Jasdoif]

I see everyone missed the 'sun bear' pun. Man, these vampires have really thrown the Playground for a loop.
That was a pun?Sun bears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_bear) are among the smallest bears, but "this cuddly teddy bear is also a nightlight that blocks negative energy and repels some undead" seemed more amusing/appropriate.

[Shining Wrath]

I do not want to start nitpicking here but the vein flows *from* the brain to the heart

sch

But it wouldn't replicate "The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain" as well.





I'm afraid my position has changed somewhat since I posted that. It is my belief now that those vampires represent a couple of level-3 slots and 1 level-2 slot. Greg will NOT be limited by the number of slots in the slightest.

GW

I will argue that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is not perfectly akin to Animate Dead, but maybe more like Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm). What either spell does is allow a cleric to turn suitable raw materials into an undead monster. In this case, "suitable raw materials" means "a corpse that will become a vampire in 3 days". I'm going to argue that accelerating the process by 3 days is of slightly less difficulty than turning a corpse that wouldn't become a monster at all into an undead - not dramatically less. A mummy (which is what Durkula would get from a casting of Create Undead) is CR 5. A vampire spawn is CR 4. A vampire proper is CR [base creature CR] + 2, normally a minimum of 7 since 5 HD are required. Accelerating a CR 7 creature by 3 days might, plausibly, be of similar magical difficulty to creating a CR 5 one.

There's evidently no need for material components, which is another thing which argues for a higher spell slot. Both Animate Dead and Create Undead require gems for each body raised, but Malack didn't use one for Durkula. If I'm a DM and a player wants to research a spell which is like another one, but lets the player skip 250 GP (for a mummy and Create Undead) in material costs, I'm going to be tempted to raise the spell level as a consequence.

If Malack's Vampire Accelerator works like Animate Dead it's possible that only a few lower level slots were required. It cannot work exactly like Create Undead because that spell only animates one corpse per casting, at 6th level - there just aren't enough spell slots available to create the horde. It might be, though, that it's a 3rd level spell that works on one target rather than on as many as can be touched - the limiting factor on Animate Dead, at least at lower levels, is having a sufficient supply of onyx gems.

I don't think Rich is going to rule that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is as broken as making it equivalent to Animate Dead. I suspect it'll be a little harder to create vampire spawn than skeletons, and that not needing material components will also raise the level of the spell.

I'm gonna guess with enthusiastic optimism that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is level 3 or 4 and works on one target at a time; and that therefore, Team Fangface has paid a significant price in spell slots available for the coming battle with OotS in order to create this horde.

[mouser9169]

In those days, I don't recall there being Vampire Spawn as a separate and lower level Vamp. It was Vamp, and eventually one slain by a vamp became a vamp under t heir control. I think even 1e left a lot of detail open until, maybe MM II?? (Memory foggy)
I'll need to take a look ... for some reason, I think vampire spawn formally entered D&D in 2e, but I may not be remembering that right.


Oh man, I remember those days. Started with the Red Box meself.

Level drain SUCKED... The very first module most players went through "The Keep on the Borderlands" had a creature that drained one level per hit - and that was a module for players levels 1-3.

Basically, no one ever got much above 12-14th level (for a lot of reasons), as the level drains would be constantly setting you back at that point, and that was pretty much by design.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm gonna guess with enthusiastic optimism that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is level 3 or 4 and works on one target at a time; and that therefore, Team Fangface has paid a significant price in spell slots available for the coming battle with OotS in order to create this horde.

The battle of the Temple happened "a little before dusk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1095.html)". Greg & co. have refreshed their spell slots since they turned all these into vampires. But if it really is one vampire per slot, I don't think they had enough slots between the whole lot of them to raise this many, plus the other spells we have seen them cast, plus whatever spells they needed for the fight.

GW

[alwaysbebatman]

I don't think Rich is going to rule that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is as broken as making it equivalent to Animate Dead. I suspect it'll be a little harder to create vampire spawn than skeletons, and that not needing material components will also raise the level of the spell.

It is harder to speed vampires-- they have more HD. The fact that a vampire is tougher, HD for HD, than a skeleton is balanced by the fact that Animate Dead gives the caster the power to create undead, while Rapid Vamp only makes a power you already have to create vampires more convenient and effective.

Pretty sure that Mr. Burlew doesn't show material component use regularly.



I'm gonna guess with enthusiastic optimism that Malack's Vampire Accelerator is level 3 or 4 and works on one target at a time; and that therefore, Team Fangface has paid a significant price in spell slots available for the coming battle with OotS in order to create this horde.

Don't forget that dusk passed, so they had two days of spells to work with. They could spam this spell before dusk, then stock up on combat useful spells. Or if they crunched the numbers and decided vamps were more valuable than spells, they could spam this spell times two, then rely on vampiric abilities.

[alowe]

Sometimes OOTS has the power to cancel all the bad in the world, if for but a moment.

[Shining Wrath]

The battle of the Temple happened "a little before dusk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1095.html)". Greg & co. have refreshed their spell slots since they turned all these into vampires. But if it really is one vampire per slot, I don't think they had enough slots between the whole lot of them to raise this many, plus the other spells we have seen them cast, plus whatever spells they needed for the fight.

GW

So it's perhaps some sort of compromise - multiple vampire spawn per casting, but only one vampire proper?


It is harder to speed vampires-- they have more HD. The fact that a vampire is tougher, HD for HD, than a skeleton is balanced by the fact that Animate Dead gives the caster the power to create undead, while Rapid Vamp only makes a power you already have to create vampires more convenient and effective.

Pretty sure that Mr. Burlew doesn't show material component use regularly.



Don't forget that dusk passed, so they had two days of spells to work with. They could spam this spell before dusk, then stock up on combat useful spells. Or if they crunched the numbers and decided vamps were more valuable than spells, they could spam this spell times two, then rely on vampiric abilities.

Point conceded regarding material components not always being shown. Counter-point: unless there were stockpiles of onyx gems on the Mechane (why?), or in the Temple atop Mount Zenith (freshly created for the occasion, that's why Gontor et al were low on spells), Durkula has had no opportunity to stock up on the necessary material components - if Malack's Vampire Accelerator is that similar to Animate Dead.

We really don't know if Rich has bothered to write out a formal Malack's Vampire Accelerator spell at all; more likely, it works the way the story needs it to work. Our best way to guess how it works is therefore meta-analysis rather than the 3.5 rules-lawyership we're all so fond of. :smallsmile:

From a meta-perspective, it seems best to me, story-wise, that Team Fangface paid a significant cost in resources of some sort to create this horde.
First, if this is easy, there is no way to stop them. Game over, they win. If it only requires them to kill a few dozen people and spend 3 mid level spell slots to create a horde like this, OotS is going to have to fight through 5 or 10 hordes to even reach the final battle.
Second, why would Malack bother to place a 3rd level spell requiring no components into his staff? He didn't create "children" often, it would have been easy to prepare the spell once per day as part of his normal load-out.

Either the horde requires significant spell slots, or the horde requires scarce resources. Otherwise, it's "broken", from a story perspective and from a D&D rules perspective.

Freely admitting that I'm guessing, I think this is *not* something Team Fangface can do casually.

[kenlund]

Now those words that everyone playing D&D waits to hear....
Roll for initiative!!
I wonder if the vampires will get a surprise round on some of the the Order?

[Fincher]

Who's that in the bottom-right of the last panel, below Elan? It kind-of looks like Durkon - is it Durkula, or just another Vampire dwarf that's risen up behind them?

If you look at the first panel on the third row, there's three vampires lying on the ground. All three of them are standing at the bottom of the last panel.

[Finagle]

I'm revisiting strips 1086 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) and 1087 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html), and I have the feeling that there is an implicit hiatus between them in which Greg's underlings did in fact cast the "hasten vampire awakening" spell on the victims. ("Everything's ready, Master", "Excellent. Thank you")

It's worse than that - in 1088 the vampires discuss resting and regaining spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html) So all those spells they cast to animate the vampires? They'll be at full strength when they meet OOTS before the dwarven council vote.

[Jasdoif]

We really don't know if Rich has bothered to write out a formal Malack's Vampire Accelerator spell at allI would guess probably not.


Second, why would Malack bother to place a 3rd level spell requiring no components into his staff? He didn't create "children" often, it would have been easy to prepare the spell once per day as part of his normal load-out.A spell you like having available but won't come up often enough to justify having the slot occupied "just in case" sounds like exactly the kind of thing to have in magic item form, to me.


Either the horde requires significant spell slots, or the horde requires scarce resources.Or the actual impact of the horde as a whole will be negligible enough that it isn't worth worrying about the specifics, like what happened to its cousin horde (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html).

[Keltest]

I would guess probably not.

I suspect that Rich will, at the very least, probably throw a dart on a board to pick out a spell level, just so he has a sort of general idea of how much power Greg loses when he prepares that particular spell, should he ever actually decide that Greg is preparing it some more. Given that Greg's lifespan can probably be measured in hours now, I doubt he will prepare it again, but hey, plot twists happen.

[Peelee]

Sun bears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_bear) are among the smallest bears, but "this cuddly teddy bear is also a nightlight that blocks negative energy and repels some undead" seemed more amusing/appropriate.

Ah. I've heard of water bears, but not sun bears.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would guess probably not.

On the other paw, Rich did eyeball the level of the Mass Death Ward.

GW

[Ganbatte]

Sure, speeding up the process is huge (the "several days before transformation" is there because of the source material, but also because it offers a time frame where you can "save" someone from turning into a monster, and to avoid the "vampire strikes in a market, city is doomed" kind of attacks we see here), and kinda cheap.

Yeah "cheap" is the definition I think of it too. Hopefully there'll be some tradeoff or equivalent exchange that had to be paid to counterbalance the OP.


Again drama happens when things are difficult for the heroes and easier for the villains.
If it requires a bit of rule-tweaking on the side so be it. Did you not listen to Tarquin on 821 ?

I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I always enjoyed more those kind of stories where the villains get things done by their own worth and craftiness and tricking the heroes by themselves rather than "rule-tweaking on the side" and asspulls. A villain that's dangerous because he's good at what he does always feels more compelling than one with luck and a GM by his side.
Giving the villains an edge to make the heroes' victory greater is always good and nice but you have to keep restraint in mind, otherwise the story will get that feeling of "cheesiness" when things go just a little bit too well too often "on just one side".
I suppose it's a matter of personal standards in appreciating storytelling.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That was a pun?

It's the ursine equivalent of an ankle biter.

But what's the thing vampires hate more than anything? Hint--rhymes with pun.

[Yendor]

On the other paw, Rich did eyeball the level of the Mass Death Ward.

It is a little more plot-critical, though.


But what's the thing vampires hate more than anything? Hint--rhymes with pun.

Fun?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah "cheap" is the definition I think of it too. Hopefully there'll be some tradeoff or equivalent exchange that had to be paid to counterbalance the OP.

And why is it cheap for vampires when it is not for shadows, spectres, wraiths or wights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22447223&postcount=148)?

As to a trade-off, there has been none, nor will there be for this group. Whatever spells they used are replenished, and this idea it would cost XP to accelerate soemthing that would happen anyway is unsupported by any other spell I can think of. Teleport accelerates going from A to B, and no-one pays XP for it, even if it does save them 3 days of walking.


It is a little more plot-critical, though.
Not really. I'd say they're about equally relevant, given that both were used by or on Durkon. In fact, I'd say the ability of the vampires to skip the wait has been far more plot critical than Durkon's failed spell (although the door is open for it to be relevant down the line)

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

I would guess probably not.

A spell you like having available but won't come up often enough to justify having the slot occupied "just in case" sounds like exactly the kind of thing to have in magic item form, to me.

Or the actual impact of the horde as a whole will be negligible enough that it isn't worth worrying about the specifics, like what happened to its cousin horde (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html).

Uh ... that horde ran into the most powerful assembly of clerics in the region of the Northern Pantheon. That's not healthy for vampires.

There is a non-negligible cost associated with making a staff and loading a spell into it. Malack said his staff had "many obscure spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html)". If Malack's Vampire Accelerator is of level L, and is cast at the minimum possible level of the greater of CL=(8 or L*2-1), the cost is 187.5*L*CL, assuming it's not one of the top two spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs). For level 3, that's 4500. For level 4, 6000. It's twice that cost if Malack's Vampire Accelerator is the highest level spell in the staff. If it isn't, though, the requirement for the caster level to be the same for all spells in the staff kicks in; if there's even one spell that Malack wanted at CL 10, Malack's Vampire Accelerator is also CL 10 and 25% more expensive.

Making a wand of only a single spell costs 5,625 GP for level 3, 10,500 for level 4.

Making a scroll costs 187.5 GP for level 3, 350 GP for level 4.

If he's only going to cast it once in a while, why not a scroll?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Uh ... that horde ran into the most powerful assembly of clerics in the region of the Northern Pantheon. That's not healthy for vampires.
Half of which were defending the vampires, not attacking them, and proved to be very healthy for the vampires, in the form of healing, bolstering and protection from various energy sources.


If he's only going to cast it once in a while, why not a scroll?

Because he can easily afford all those really rather minimal costs, given that he has the resources of an entire country at his disposal? You really think he can't afford to gift himself a 20k GP staff? And of course a staff with all the minor spells he might need in a rare case is better than hauling a large amount of scrolls. Also, staffs can be crafted to be rechargeable. When you expect to unlive forever, a staff becomes economical quickly. How many times could he have cast the Protection from Sun from scrolls before it became more expensive than to do it from a rechargeable staff?

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

The Vampire spawn were a surprise-- both to the audience and to the party. But they shouldn't have been. The clues to realize Durkon* would do this were there if we had seen them. That's excellent misdirection, not cheese.

Durkon* didn't get that spell as a sudden deus ex gift. He learned a spell we had every reason to suspect how powerful it would be, and every reason to realize he had the opportunity to learn it.

We saw Malack create an army of mummies. We saw vampire spawn taken out in one or two hits at Godsmoot, from which we can conclude they aren't individually strong enough that an army of them is particularly different from an army of mummies. We saw Durkon* sequestered in his cabin doing eldritch things to Malack's staff.

Durkon* planned, deceived, and worked for this reveal. It seemed sudden to us and to the protagonists, but it was not sudden, it was not unearned cheese. It only seemed sudden to us because Mr. Burlew did a great job at his shell game-- and to the protagonists because Durkon* succeeded at his shell game likewise.

[Yendor]

Not really. I'd say they're about equally relevant, given that both were used by or on Durkon. In fact, I'd say the ability of the vampires to skip the wait has been far more plot critical than Durkon's failed spell (although the door is open for it to be relevant down the line)

I meant, compared to Tsukiko's spell.

[alwaysbebatman]

I meant, compared to Tsukiko's spell.

You mean you had Mass Death Ward confused with Tsukiko's spell? If so: fair enough.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I meant, compared to Tsukiko's spell.

OK, that one I can grant was not particularly plot-critical, but then I'm a bit lost as to what your point is. If Rich only bothers to eyeball plot-critical spells, he'd still would've eyeballed the level of the quicken Vampire one, wouldn't he?

GW

[Fyraltari]

I suppose it's a matter of opinion but I always enjoyed more those kind of stories where the villains get things done by their own worth and craftiness and tricking the heroes by themselves rather than "rule-tweaking on the side" and asspulls. A villain that's dangerous because he's good at what he does always feels more compelling than one with luck and a GM by his side.
Giving the villains an edge to make the heroes' victory greater is always good and nice but you have to keep restraint in mind, otherwise the story will get that feeling of "cheesiness" when things go just a little bit too well too often "on just one side".
I suppose it's a matter of personal standards in appreciating storytelling.

That guy is not crafty enough for you ? He has the Order and the reader dancing to his tune like he was Mozart reborn ! He manipuled the Order into bringing him to a secret meeting he should not have known existed without it being suspicious despite a GOD trying to warn them, he spawned a horde of cleric-vampires when he saw an opportunity and hijacked Roy's plan on the off-chance a demi-god would change his mind, he spawned a SECOND horde as part of Odin knows what other preparations he has and he almost killed Roy in one-on-one combat.
And he had no time to prepare that !

This is in no way an ass-pull, the spell's existence was explained before and he already used it in the exact same way !

RC and Xykon getting a thousand-strong army out of nowhere that was an ass-pull. This is not.

Yes that spell is convienient but it is not the magically-able-to-resist-any-of-the-heroes-power convienient that you see in some other (inferior) stories.

[Jasdoif]

Uh ... that horde ran into the most powerful assembly of clerics in the region of the Northern Pantheon. That's not healthy for vampires.Exactly. Story-wise, the horde covered the escape of HPoH and three other vampires. Soaking fire was the extent of its significance, and that doesn't need a dedicated explanation.


There is a non-negligible cost associated with making a staff and loading a spell into it. Malack said his staff had "many obscure spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html)". If Malack's Vampire Accelerator is of level L, and is cast at the minimum possible level of the greater of CL=(8 or L*2-1), the cost is 187.5*L*CL, assuming it's not one of the top two spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs). For level 3, that's 4500. For level 4, 6000. It's twice that cost if Malack's Vampire Accelerator is the highest level spell in the staff. If it isn't, though, the requirement for the caster level to be the same for all spells in the staff kicks in; if there's even one spell that Malack wanted at CL 10, Malack's Vampire Accelerator is also CL 10 and 25% more expensive.The primary feature of a staff is that you use your own caster level (and save DC) instead of the staff's, if it's higher. If you've got multiple obscure spells for esoteric scenarios, that have dependencies on caster level and/or saves; you can get a lot of mileage out of loading up a staff so the option is there if a call for it comes up, and you don't need to rebuild every time you gain a caster level (to say nothing of saves, which are the minimum possible when cast from a typical magic item).


Making a wand of only a single spell costs 5,625 GP for level 3, 10,500 for level 4.

Making a scroll costs 187.5 GP for level 3, 350 GP for level 4.

If he's only going to cast it once in a while, why not a scroll?Overlooking the "why isn't a character in Order of the Stick playing optimally" angle....I don't think he was expecting to cast it once a while. I don't think he was expecting to want to cast it again at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html), until he was in the situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html), but there was no point in throwing out the staff just because of that.

[alwaysbebatman]

That guy is not crafty enough for you ? He has the Order and the reader dancing to his tune like he was Mozart reborn !

http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chdancing.jpg

[Ganbatte]

This is in no way an ass-pull, the spell's existence was explained before and he already used it in the exact same way!

Except he didn't. He used the staff there, whose creation cost and limited charges offset the powerful effect its use had.
Being able to now achieve the same results basically at will totally changes that balance into "cheesy" territory.

[alwaysbebatman]

The creation cost of a staff is in GP, so was basically nothing for Malack who had the resources of an empire behind him.

The creation cost of a staff is even MORE irrelevant when you didn't create the staff at all, but yoinked it from your deceased creator's ashes.

ETA: Also, the number of charges on the staff were limited only in theory. It was never established how many charges the staff had, so it was limited only by plot.

Contrariwise, Durkon's use of this spell has a hard daily limit, and he has to use spell slots that he then can't use for other spells.

(Now, if we're right that it's a third level spell and quickness caster level * 2 HD of Vamps per casting, that limit is REALLY high, if he knows he won't need his slots for anything else before dusk.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except he didn't. He used the staff there, whose creation cost and limited charges offset the powerful effect its use had.
Being able to now achieve the same results basically at will totally changes that balance into "cheesy" territory.

No it doesn't. Anything that can be done by a staff created by a level 12 character (Malack) should be easily reproducible by a level 15 character.

There are endless examples of powerful magic that V can do practically at will. They even won a fight on that basis alone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html). There is literally no reason for your complain. We knew it could be done, we had seen it in action, and we saw Greg take steps to learn the ability. Nothing in this sequence of events requires this to cost XP, or to use levels of magic that weren't available to Malack. Accelerating the vampire resurrection, therefore, is not as expensive as you are asserting is must be.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Half of which were defending the vampires, not attacking them, and proved to be very healthy for the vampires, in the form of healing, bolstering and protection from various energy sources.



Because he can easily afford all those really rather minimal costs, given that he has the resources of an entire country at his disposal? You really think he can't afford to gift himself a 20k GP staff? And of course a staff with all the minor spells he might need in a rare case is better than hauling a large amount of scrolls. Also, staffs can be crafted to be rechargeable. When you expect to unlive forever, a staff becomes economical quickly. How many times could he have cast the Protection from Sun from scrolls before it became more expensive than to do it from a rechargeable staff?

Grey Wolf

Maybe some ... but Sunna's cleric, among others, seems to have switched sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html). And my sense is that the bodyguards on the balcony were pretty much united in their desire to rain death upon the insufficiently dead.

The cost to Malack also includes 1 day per 1,000 GP of the spell - and while he expects to live forever, that doesn't mean he wants to spend a week, more or less, loading a spell into the staff that he could simply and easily prepare as part of the ~35 spells prepared daily?

Malack never expected to encounter an enemy without warning, which is why Nale's attack worked. His daily preparations didn't need to be combat-optimal.

[Ganbatte]

It's funny because you keep throwing around technicalities and nitpicks that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

[alwaysbebatman]

Nobody knows what you're talking about, because your arguments don't hold up at all.... and you are the one nitpicking.

[Ganbatte]

Ah yes, more passive-aggressive assertions and implying that I'm dumb. For a second I forgot on which forum I was.

[alwaysbebatman]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing you've said makes any sense to anybody else. We aren't pretending we don't get your point just to frustrate you, we actually believe that you are clearly and evidently incorrect.

That doesn't make you dumb, but it does make you either unclear, mistaken, or both.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The cost to Malack also includes 1 day per 1,000 GP of the spell - and while he expects to live forever, that doesn't mean he wants to spend a week, more or less, loading a spell into the staff that he could simply and easily prepare as part of the ~35 spells prepared daily?

I'm sorry, why not? Especially if, given he has to prepare healing spells explicitly, he really doesn't have that many spell slots free for "just in case" scenarios? Remember, he lags behind spell-level wise from the rest of the party, due to his vampire level adjustment. It makes sense to off-load as many spells as possible to his staff so he can devote his (relatively) limited spells slot capacity to those spells he uses most often.

If a week's effort means he need not prepare "quicken vampire" ever again, that seems a very small price to pay.

Grey Wolf

[Ganbatte]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing you've said makes any sense to anybody else. We aren't pretending we don't get your point just to frustrate you, we actually believe that you are clearly and evidently incorrect.

That doesn't make you dumb, but it does make you either unclear, mistaken, or both.

Right back at you dude, because it's really not rocket science.
Limited due to the staff= okay in terms of storytelling perception, balanced
Being able to be cast willy-nilly like that= cheesy in terms of storytelling perception, unbalanced

to me. Get it? Can accept it?

Good. Bye!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Right back at you dude, because it's really not rocket science.
Limited due to the staff= okay in terms of storytelling perception, balanced
Being able to be cast willy-nilly like that= cheesy in terms of storytelling perception, unbalanced

to me. Get it? Can accept it?

Good. Bye!

Rudeness aside, casting from a magical staff is more "unbalanced" from a storytelling perspective than having to use spells. The story has established multiple times, including the fight I linked to, that spell casters using spells can ran out. On the other hand, nothing in the story suggests that the staff has a limited number of charges, and indeed, the way it was used by its two owners ("willy-nilly", to quote you) suggests that it never got even close to running out. Roy destroying the staff meant the Church of Hel lost a powerful artifact.

Now, IF you know D&D rules, you know the staff is limited in the number of charges. But that is not "storytelling perception", but relies in information not given in the comic.

Grey Wolf

[JumboWheat01]

I think the point trying to be made here is that the staff would eventually run out of charges and that would be that. By learning the spell, every day the spell can be used, and as leveling happens, the spell can be used more often, thus removing its limit.

[Fyraltari]

http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chdancing.jpg
I'm dead. That was brilliant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think the point trying to be made here is that the staff would eventually run out of charges and that would be that.

But they won't. Staffs can be recharged, duplicated or might even recharge over time on their own. The suggestion that the staff was a limit on how often vampires could be awoken faster than in 3 days is simply not borne out by the story or by the rules. I have found one reference to charges of the staff (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)) and Malack himself brushes aside that cost as unimportant.

But spells per day? That is a definite limitation, one that has seen a lot of play in the comic, from the early days all the way to the last book.Spell management may not be a real thing in high-level D&D (I wouldn't know), but in this story, it is a definite limitation of spell caster, since unlike in the actual game, they can't just refresh the spells when they need to - the narrative seldom allows such comforts.

Grey Wolf

[Ganbatte]

Rudeness aside, casting from a magical staff is more "unbalanced" from a storytelling perspective than having to use spells. The story has established multiple times, including the fight I linked to, that spell casters using spells can ran out. On the other hand, nothing in the story suggests that the staff has a limited number of charges, and indeed, the way it was used by its two owners ("willy-nilly", to quote you) suggests that it never got even close to running out. Roy destroying the staff meant the Church of Hel lost a powerful artifact.

Now, IF you know D&D rules, you know the staff is limited in the number of charges. But that is not "storytelling perception", but relies in information not given in the comic.

Grey Wolf

Nah, that's storytelling perception fine and right. Like wands staffs are a handmade limited resource which offset their powerful spammable effects. The moment you remove the "limited" aspect of the spell spam you veer into broken cheesy territory.

[alwaysbebatman]

I think the point trying to be made here is that the staff would eventually run out of charges and that would be that. By learning the spell, every day the spell can be used, and as leveling happens, the spell can be used more often, thus removing its limit.

Yes, well, Durkon* removed that limit by learning the spell-- the normal way to remove such a limit. It makes Durkon* OP in the sense you are saying only over time. If he had the time, the spell wouldn't be an issue, because it only speeds an ability that he has anyway!

The way to avoid that even becoming an issue is by the heroes destroying Durkon* before the next dusk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nah, that's storytelling perception fine and right. Like wands staffs are a handmade limited resource which offset their powerful spammable effects. The moment you remove the "limited" aspect of the spell spam you veer into broken cheesy territory.

[citation needed]

When has OotS established that "staffs are a handmade limited resource"? Or indeed that they are "Like wands"? Or, hell, that wands themselves are "a handmade limited resource"?

I refer you, again, to how Malack considers the use of a few charges the least relevant part of creating mummies, concentrating instead on how wasteful it is to use such a gift from his God as mere trap detectors.

GW