Fallout VIII: Another Thread Needs Your Help General

[Triaxx]

New thread time, continuing from: Fallout VII: Vault Tec Calling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525355-Fallout-VII-Vault-Tec-calling)

So, anyone seen the project to bring NV forward to Fallout 4's engine? Last I saw they'd completed Goodsprings.

[Brookshw]

So, anyone seen the project to bring NV forward to Fallout 4's engine? Last I saw they'd completed Goodsprings.

No, but I like the sound of it!

[Caelestion]

That'll take forever.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And hey, Extra Credits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuEy0Y4xoT4) brought up some interesting points about focusing exclusively on money and not on losing player trust...

[Triaxx]

It might take forever, but A) FNV was built in 18 months, by a fairly small team. B) Maybe less than you think, since they're using almost all newly modeled assets, rather than trying to port the old ones over, which should smooth the process some.

[Anteros]

I got a few hours into FO4 last night. So far the initial plot hook was interesting, but spoiled by the fact that I already know what's going to happen. I feel like it's pretty obvious what's going to happen even if you haven't been spoiled, but maybe that's just because I already know.

The wasteland itself feels pretty boring and uninspired so far, but I haven't seen much of it yet. Also, throwing Dogmeat at me within 5 minutes of leaving the vault feels wrong. Let me explore a bit and find him on my own.

[Triaxx]

The north bit is somewhat empty, but it gets more crowded as you go south. It's an interesting method to do difficulty scaling.

[DigoDragon]

The wasteland itself feels pretty boring and uninspired so far, but I haven't seen much of it yet. Also, throwing Dogmeat at me within 5 minutes of leaving the vault feels wrong. Let me explore a bit and find him on my own.

My friends still don't know how I've managed 2-3 playthroughs of FO3 and never run into Dogmeat. Had to look it up.

[Triaxx]

Frankly, I almost never go there, so I rarely have him as a companion.

[Balmas]

My friends still don't know how I've managed 2-3 playthroughs of FO3 and never run into Dogmeat. Had to look it up.


Frankly, I almost never go there, so I rarely have him as a companion.

...You two have blown my mind. How do you miss Dogmeat, or rarely go to the Scrapyard? It's smack-dab in a straight line between Megaton and Minefield.


And hey, Extra Credits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuEy0Y4xoT4) brought up some interesting points about focusing exclusively on money and not on losing player trust...

An excellent video. Highlights!

Game1 is made. Game1 is good. Game gets sequel, Game2.
Even if Game2 is worse than Game1, it still sells more than Game1 because A) Sequel to good game and B) Increased marketing.
Game2, if worse than Game1, likely has lower review scores. (Like, oh, purely off the top of my head, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are Very Good and Overwhelmingly positive respectively, while Fallout 4 is Mixed.)
Any criticism of Game2 is shot down by devs because even if the game itself is worse, more copies were sold and therefore it must be a better game, right? Critics are just elitists; we're doing something right because the game is selling well.
Cycle continues--sequels get bigger marketing budgets which sell more copies, up until the decreased quality of the game and loss of trust in the company results in people being unwilling to buy the game no matter the marketing.


But I'm sure we've not seen that in Fallout 4, right? :smallsigh:

[Triaxx]

Because I swing east through the Bethesda ruins. Or west to Arefu. I also loop around from the north side because there's a schematic in the substation near the power plant, as well as a workbench. Plus that means I can snipe Arkansas off without worrying about mines.

[GloatingSwine]

No, but I like the sound of it!

It would only work if they could backport New Vegas' rules into Fallout 4's engine.

So much of the good stuff in New Vegas is how it makes skills and stats matter to quests on a consistent basis throughout the game.

New Vegas is basically incompatible with Fallout 4's "thirty six flavours of increased damage" approach to perks.

[Triaxx]

Given that the Cascade team worked out how to bring back skills, it shouldn't be impossible to fix.

[factotum]

I disagree with the central premise anyway. Far Harbor showed that you can have a decent branching plotline in the FO4 engine, and since the branching plotline is by far the best bit about NV, I see no problem with them transporting it over mostly intact. Sure, there might be an occasional quest that can't easily be done because it relies on the particular way skill checks work in NV, but I'm struggling to think of one, TBH.

[Brookshw]

It would only work if they could backport New Vegas' rules into Fallout 4's engine.

So much of the good stuff in New Vegas is how it makes skills and stats matter to quests on a consistent basis throughout the game.

New Vegas is basically incompatible with Fallout 4's "thirty six flavours of increased damage" approach to perks.

And I am glad it's them figuring out how to make it work and not me :smallwink:

[Triaxx]

I could make it work even with just the perks involved now. Substituting skill checks for perks would be the easy choice. If instead of randomly arguing for caps, you get a guaranteed success for having cap collector.

[DigoDragon]

...You two have blown my mind. How do you miss Dogmeat, or rarely go to the Scrapyard? It's smack-dab in a straight line between Megaton and Minefield.

I honestly don't know. I tend to walk north past the high school from Megaton to Minefield, but for some reason I seem to drift around the yard and miss it. Maybe it's the enemies I encounter. Since I generally hit minefield at very low levels, I find I have to run around a bunch of them to either avoid or hit from an advantaged spot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I could make it work even with just the perks involved now. Substituting skill checks for perks would be the easy choice. If instead of randomly arguing for caps, you get a guaranteed success for having cap collector.

Maybe, but I still think they're going to have difficulties in porting over most of the Barter or Speech checks if you want to bring F:NV over into the FO4 engine. Doable, but difficult. And it makes the introduction quests in Goodsprings far more difficult. It's not unreasonable to have 20-25 in skills across the board at low levels, but having 5-6 unrelated perks? Is a HUGE investment, especially early game. For example, Easy Pete would probably want you to have the first rank of Demo Expert to get the dynamite, Trudy might need Local Leader to get the rest of the townsfolk involved, the store owner might need Cap Collector, and Doc might need Medic. That's a broad list of perks to get. You'd need PER 5 for Demo Expert and CHA 6 for Local Leader, which limits how you can build your character. Plus the actual investment of the perks themselves. Especially if you have no interest in, for example, explosives.

[Triaxx]

True enough, but since NV also had SPECIAL checks, I figured some of them could be skimmed off with that. So even if you don't have Demo Expert, having enough PER to get it would be enough. Or make it an INT check. The whole idea is all about options.

[Brookshw]

True enough, but since NV also had SPECIAL checks, I figured some of them could be skimmed off with that. So even if you don't have Demo Expert, having enough PER to get it would be enough. Or make it an INT check. The whole idea is all about options.

Wonder how to address skill books, +1 temp rank in a perk?

[Triaxx]

I was thinking move the damage boosting to those. Say 90 seconds of +50% damage. Sneak mags get to be a +50% amplification to sneak attacks but only last say 20 seconds.

Commando gets Spread reduction instead of damage boost, Gunslinger gets a bonus critical chance, Rifleman gets boosted Rate of Fire. Heavy Gunner is okay, though Gatling Laser and Minigun get slightly higher damage boosts while the Missile Launcher stays the same since it's boosted by both this and Demo Expert.

[LuckGuy]

Excellent thread title, I applaud.

[PopeLinus1]

Bring back Skills.

Do that and it will work, as well as actually adding a decent dialogue system. Fallout 4 had a lot of great features(such as settlement building and weapon customization) and I would love to see NV in 4’s graphics, but New Vegas is a role playing game primarily, and while 4 has Roleplaying elements, it has much more elements of FPS’s than the other titles.

Now, while that is not necessarily a bad thing, the problem is that Vegas has a ton of dialogue options, which the skills play an important part in. I doubt it would mix pretty well, and NV should probably have to scrap a ton of it’s options, and striping that game down to its bones could take forever.

But if they make some changes, it could work, and I would more than definitely like to see some locations as settlements. I have never been more exited about the Prim rollercoaseter before!

[Zombimode]

So, currently playing Fallout 2 for the first time.

I've read there is no timelimit to find the GECK. So when the Shaman called I just ignored it. Now, aftfer almost a year in-game time later after receiving the third "call" Arrayo vanished from the Reputation list.

Now I'm a bit worried. Maybe there actually is a timelimit after all? Maybe not for completing the game, but maybe for completing the game with a certain Outcome?

I have the Fallout 2 Restoration Project installed, if it matters.

[Balmas]

So, currently playing Fallout 2 for the first time.

I've read there is no timelimit to find the GECK. So when the Shaman called I just ignored it. Now, aftfer almost a year in-game time later after receiving the third "call" Arrayo vanished from the Reputation list.

Now I'm a bit worried. Maybe there actually is a timelimit after all? Maybe not for completing the game, but maybe for completing the game with a certain Outcome?

I have the Fallout 2 Restoration Project installed, if it matters.

Hey, glad to see another person discovering a classic.

Alright, so there simultaneously is and is not a time limit to Fallout 2's main quest. If you take too long to find the GECK, Arroyo is destroyed. However,
it's not destroyed through famine. You know the Enclave? That'd be the guys wearing the sinister black power armor in the opening cinematic, and decorating the main menu's splash screen. They swoop in and kidnap your village's people, leaving only Hakunin behind.

So, that's what happens if you don't find the GECK in time. It'd probably take about a year or so of in-game time to reach that point, at the point when the fourth warning shows.

However, if you do find the GECK in time, the same thing happens. The Enclave come in and steal your people, and you have to go save them. So, yeah. The time limit is there,
but it doesn't actually affect anything whether you get the GECK before or after.

[Anteros]

Hey, glad to see another person discovering a classic.

Alright, so there simultaneously is and is not a time limit to Fallout 2's main quest. If you take too long to find the GECK, Arroyo is destroyed. However,
it's not destroyed through famine. You know the Enclave? That'd be the guys wearing the sinister black power armor in the opening cinematic, and decorating the main menu's splash screen. They swoop in and kidnap your village's people, leaving only Hakunin behind.

So, that's what happens if you don't find the GECK in time. It'd probably take about a year or so of in-game time to reach that point, at the point when the fourth warning shows.

However, if you do find the GECK in time, the same thing happens. The Enclave come in and steal your people, and you have to go save them. So, yeah. The time limit is there,
but it doesn't actually affect anything whether you get the GECK before or after.

Could probably just say that it changes the order of some events, but nothing critical to the plot changes if you want to avoid the spoilers.

[DodgerH2O]

Replaying Fallout 4 with (modded) Survival Mode has me thinking about how great it would be to have a State of Decay meets Fallout 4 Survival.

Like the scavenging mechanics and procederally generated content is already there but give the Settlers names and unique Perks/SPECIAL and make it so you send them out on your missions (or bring them along as allies) for a single radiant quest. Assign them to crafting stations and you can use their levels in say Gun Nut, Medic etc. to modify your gear without actually having the Perk investment. Give them affinity levels and turn them into permanent Companions upon reaching the max.

As much as it feels extraneous to the actual storyline, I love the Settlement building. I will totally spend hours hoarding to build a settlement that nobody else will ever see. It's just I wish it were more connected to the rest of the game, or possible to be if you invested time into it. Mods help with a lot of this (Immersive Fast Travel, Salvage Beacons) but my hope is that if they keep Settlements in the next Fallout they will put more effort into tying your efforts into the plot and mechanics.

[Triaxx]

I like settlement building myself, but mostly so I can build my own safe house bunkers. Could have used some refinements to snapping on a lot of pieces.

Anyone tried this out: Unbogus Ranged Weapons (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/24312) Silly name aside, could improve the awful shooting in F4. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, a few simple model and audio edits and we could turn the Brotherhood into Sphece Marines (and female paladins using the Sisters of Battle models and voices), Super Mutants into Orks, could probably cobble together some 'nids from the various insects you encounter, and the Minutemen into the Imperial Guard fairly seamlessly. Unfortunately, Institute to Eldar doesn't really work, or we could really have a fun time of it.

[Triaxx]

True, but the Synth's look proper already for the metal skeleton guys.

[Brookshw]

You know, a few simple model and audio edits and we could turn the Brotherhood into Sphece Marines (and female paladins using the Sisters of Battle models and voices), Super Mutants into Orks, could probably cobble together some 'nids from the various insects you encounter, and the Minutemen into the Imperial Guard fairly seamlessly. Unfortunately, Institute to Eldar doesn't really work, or we could really have a fun time of it.

40k total conversions were done for Fallout 3 & NV, I expect we'll see one for 4 in due time.

[Anteros]

I like settlement building myself, but mostly so I can build my own safe house bunkers. Could have used some refinements to snapping on a lot of pieces.

Anyone tried this out: Unbogus Ranged Weapons (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/24312) Silly name aside, could improve the awful shooting in F4. :smalltongue:

Wait, so is the shooting in FO4 a legitimate complaint? It felt off to me, but I thought that was just because I hadn't played a shooter with a console controller in years. And I refuse to play a FPS using Vats.

On FO4 itself...I haven't been able to make myself pick it back up since the first time I played. I've got limited time off from work right now, and it's hard to make myself invest in a video game when I know I'll be spending the next week straight at the hospital. This game just hasn't grabbed me the way that the last 2 did...but maybe I just need to give it more time. I'll try to pick it up again in a few days when I'm off again.

[Triaxx]

I find it to be so, given there's a noticable delay between clicking the button to shoot and the gun in your characters hands actually shooting. Other people insist I'm wrong and that it contains the finest shooting ever to grace a video game. VATS... is even less useful now than it used to be. Nothing stops and I find the slowing effect to be so minimal I'm better of just shooting manually. Especially since it's now nigh impossible to shoot grenades, since they don't appear until they're about to be thrown and fly so fast even in VATS that you don't have the time to shoot them.

That's fine. Fallout 4 probably won't immerse you that deeply. I find I play in 15-20 minute chunks before I get bored and want to stop. Then again, I've already played through four times and so I might just be bored with the game.

[Balmas]

Anyone tried this out: Unbogus Ranged Weapons (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/24312) Silly name aside, could improve the awful shooting in F4. :smalltongue:

Tried it out on my Über-mode character, and found it to be pretty powerful, as in, I pimped out a double-barrel shotgun, fast traveled to the glowing sea, and proceeded to wreck face with my 800-damage-per-shot flaming shotgun.

I might try it out later with a fresh character, see how that works out for me.


Wait, so is the shooting in FO4 a legitimate complaint? It felt off to me, but I thought that was just because I hadn't played a shooter with a console controller in years. And I refuse to play a FPS using Vats.

I haven't noticed many issues. Its shooting is leagues above that of Fallout 3 and Fallout 4, in that you can actually reliably hit people you're aiming at without needing to install third party mods like bullet time.

With that said, it's got some questionable design decisions forced on it by console users, like binding "throw grenade" and "hit someone with your gun" to the same, suicide-inducing key.

[Triaxx]

I never have had much trouble hitting people, but I'm also a strategy gamer by nature, so that might make a difference.

Fallout 4 hotkeys can now help with that.

[Balmas]

Eh, my problem with Fallout 4's shooting isn't so much with the shooting itself as what you're shooting at. It feels like there's just not enough feedback to the weapons. If it weren't for the giant glowing healthbar above the enemies, you'd have barely any ability to distinguish a non-crippling hit from a miss. On the one hand, Fallout 4's AI is much better than 3 and New Vegas, and it's a feat and a half to have an AI so robust in a game that large, but still.

Apropos of nothing, I've been watching Gopher playing through Evil!Nuka World, and it kinda reminded me of why I just can't get into that DLC.
Nuka World is strange as a DLC, because it's so friggin' contrary to the rest of the game. In the Commonwealth, you have no choice but to be that one guy who altruistically helps everyone with only a few sarcastic words to mark the difference between Peter Perfect and [slightly nastier Peter Perfect.] Then you come to Nuka World, and you're told, "Congrats, you're now the spawn of Satan, go kill stuff for us raiders." The dichotomy between the two areas you go to is jarring in the extreme. You can kill the raiders, sure, but then you might as well not have bought the DLC because there goes most of the content.

Things only get worse when you get into the settlement system. This is because raiders, as a whole, are just crappier settlers. They need virtually the same things, they defend themselves the same way, except they don't like working and will only be happy if others are forced into supplying their needs. Other nearby settlements need to provide them with food. This is a problem, because most of the settlements you're taking over will be pretty crappy unless you've invested time into them. I mean... Look at stuff like Tenpines Bluff or Finch Farm. Congrats, you've taken them over, and your raiders are now the proud beneficiaries of not enough food to even feed the settlers, let alone the raiders. Oh, and have I mentioned that you can't build up tributary settlements once you've taken them over? This leads to you being in the weird spot where in order for tributary settlements to be good enough to support your raiders, you need to build them up first. And if you're doing that anyway, why bother siccing raiders to take a spot that's already yours?

Oh, and also screw companions and screw the Minutement. If I ever do an evil run, I'll need to go straight to the commonwealth, skipping Concord entirely, just so I can see if I can get the raiders into Sanctuary before Preston gets his grubby mitts over it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I did a run in which I was basically playing a shellshocked PTST type of fellow who had his wife killed and son kidnapped for presumably immoral purposes and so was by now either dead or worse. So he had something of a nihilistic worldview. Immediately out of the vault, he ran into Codsworth, who just confirmed that there's no way his son is still alive after so long, so after looting everything of value in his old home, he moved on, following the river north and completely bypassing Concord.

When he heard the firefight, he just shrugged, "Not my problem, leaving now", and went elsewhere so as to avoid getting caught in the crossfire.

Ended up in Nuka-World. Did that whole thing for a bit, mad max style. But when the Pack betrayed him, he saw the writing on the wall. They only served him out of their own greed, and sooner or later, he'd be replaced by some other figurehead. Taking a break from being a puppet leader, he wandered the Commonwealth until he eventually came across Concord again. The raiders were trivial by now, and rescued Preston Garvey. And with him... found new purpose.

How many other people's lives suck even worse than his? How many people suffer day to day? How many people every week do raiders or feral ghouls or super mutants kill? No more. Humanity is taking the Commonwealth back.

He chats with the Railroad and becomes friendly with them, but considers them idealistic and narrow in goal. Picks up the trick of Ballistic Weave, of course, but then kinda... doesn't really buy into their shtick.

When he hears that the [REDACTED] who killed his family is still alive, however, it fills him with a red rage. He leaves the growing Minutemen to Preston for the moment, and goes hunting. Because this one is *personal*. After doing some mandatory questing, because the next part of his story is locked behind the main quest, which is completely immersion-breaking because otherwise I'd never bother with this in this run, and putting Kellogg down like the rabid dog he is, the Brotherhood show up.

While noble in goal, their effect is simply 'raiders in power armor'. They start up synth witch-hunts, raid settlements, and give not one toss about justice or freedom. If they had their way, the whole Commonwealth would be firmly under their T60 boot heel. Needless to say... that is something to which he rather firmly and strongly objects. While they would make their lives better, they wouldn't make humanity as a whole better.

Which is why he's earmarked their airship for destruction. One day... one day indeed. For now, he contents himself with shooting vertabirds out of the air and the occasional ambush of brotherhood patrols.

However, the Brotherhood do have some points. Namely: synths are a huge problem. Someone's pulling their strings, and it is time to put down the puppetmaster once and for all. When the 'big reveal' is given, his response is simply: "You may or may not be my son. But it doesn't matter. Because what you are doing? Is wrong. And you're the one in charge. You're the one who is planning all this." *BLAM BLAM* "May whoever indoctrinated you into believing this crap roast in hell for a thousand years."

And of course, making sure to reserve a round for the atrocity out in the hallway that resembles what my son might have looked like at that age.

Minuteman ending, blowing up the Prydwin and the Institute. Making an effort to establish every single settlement. And making sure each settlement has no only sufficient defenses as to ensure that no one is going to be able to threaten it but also at least one artillery piece. Because I don't want there to be a single inch of the commonwealth where the Minutemen cannot bring down fire support to get rid of the raiders, the super mutants, and all the other hazards that humanity faces.

[veti]

About 40 hours into Fallout 4, I realised there's a name for the particular species of boredom that I'm experiencing. I'm grinding. Not something I'd anticipated in a Fallout game, but here I am, trying to calculate how many more of these idiot missions I have to take before I level.

Note to Bethesda: I could live with taking the skills out. I could even learn to tolerate spoken first person dialogue, even though I think it's even more annoying and counter-immersive than spoken second person dialogue. But level gating skills in this game? That officially makes it too tedious to play. I'm going back to New Vegas.

[LibraryOgre]

So, my uber-dweller in TTW is in Vegas, and I was going to go through the DLC, in order, like you're supposed to. But I got to the Sierra Madre and decided to reload.

I went back to pick up the two cybernetic implants I need (since I have straight 10s in attributes): The regeneration one, and the damage resistance one.

I am TIRED of being half-dead all the time in the Sierra Madre.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, my uber-dweller in TTW is in Vegas, and I was going to go through the DLC, in order, like you're supposed to. But I got to the Sierra Madre and decided to reload.

I went back to pick up the two cybernetic implants I need (since I have straight 10s in attributes): The regeneration one, and the damage resistance one.

I am TIRED of being half-dead all the time in the Sierra Madre.

Unfortunately, that's not going to help a whole lot. You already get really solid armor in the Police Station (Sierra Madre armor, one of the highest DT light armors in the game, only beaten by the Reinforced version), so DT isn't your problem, and regeneration from the Phoenix Monocyte Breeder isn't going to help a whole heck of a lot. The problem with Dead Money, and one of my many complaints about it, is that it is a very... binary system. Every challenge is pass/fail, either you get your head blown off or you make it through. The only 'challenge' is knowing where all the speakers and hologram emitters are. Once you know that, you can go through the entire DLC without taking hardly any damage at all.

[Triaxx]

I think he's more annoyed by the lack of stimpaks. Which is one of the things I hated. Of course once you have access to the Clinic that also solves the problem.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he's more annoyed by the lack of stimpaks. Which is one of the things I hated. Of course once you have access to the Clinic that also solves the problem.

Could've sworn you could find some in the Police Station. And at any rate, if you take no damage, you need no stimpacks. Unless you're playing hardcore which has the slow trickle of HP going down (which the phoenix implant precisely counters), you really shouldn't be getting hurt. Ghost people are a non-issue, especially after you talk to Dog and get the perk to remove their one gimmick.

Unless you are playing AWOP. Those guys are PAINFUL. But hey, effectively unlimited 12.7mm, .50, 5.56, 10mm, and .45 ACP ammo available from the vending machines through the vendor codes in that mod in the Sierra Madre are quite useful. You already get .308 in vanilla Dead Money in the Police Station (along with repair packs, which absolutely trivializes them).

[Triaxx]

I'm never quite picture perfect with the cloud, so I always take some damage. You're right though, Monocyte Breeder isn't anywhere near as good as it was back in F2. I have to admit though, having played through Dead Money with a dedicated Melee Character, it's much easier than trying to use guns. Though I admit the necessity of using VATS to actually hit anything.

[DodgerH2O]

About 40 hours into Fallout 4, I realised there's a name for the particular species of boredom that I'm experiencing. I'm grinding. Not something I'd anticipated in a Fallout game, but here I am, trying to calculate how many more of these idiot missions I have to take before I level.

Note to Bethesda: I could live with taking the skills out. I could even learn to tolerate spoken first person dialogue, even though I think it's even more annoying and counter-immersive than spoken second person dialogue. But level gating skills in this game? That officially makes it too tedious to play. I'm going back to New Vegas.

That was the first reason I had to mod the game and it helps immensely. I always used to play vanilla once through before modding but that change was too ridiculous to not fix. I consider level gating skills a game-breaker for what I enjoy about Bethesda open-world style RPGs.

[Triaxx]

My gripe turned out to be only certain mods on certain gear bits, and only certain under gear could have armor. And so Armorsmith appeared. And as always, it was all downhill from there.

Though F4 has proven stupidly stable. I've had a total of three crashes in all 504 hours of play. (Not counting those where the game refused to start because of version issues.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My gripe turned out to be only certain mods on certain gear bits, and only certain under gear could have armor. And so Armorsmith appeared. And as always, it was all downhill from there.

Though F4 has proven stupidly stable. I've had a total of three crashes in all 504 hours of play. (Not counting those where the game refused to start because of version issues.)

Which is why I hope and pray that Bethesda will do to FO4 what they did to FO3 with Obsidian... farm out the game engine and franchise license to a third party who actually knows how to world-build and write. Only perhaps NOT screw over the third party developer after everything is said and done...

[Brookshw]

Which is why I hope and pray that Bethesda will do to FO4 what they did to FO3 with Obsidian... farm out the game engine and franchise license to a third party who actually knows how to world-build and write. Only perhaps NOT screw over the third party developer after everything is said and done...

Actually, I'm willing to give it to them that they did a really great job in FO4 with the world building. The catch is they did it passively through background info and stories that you can choose to seek out rather than overt quests and highlighted "on screen" events. There's a lot of talent and thought that went into the game, largely subtle though. Fairvew manor and the mystery without an actual answer but clues, the story of many of the different raider gangs and how they relate and interact with one another. The DB Techinical High School's story about the "monster" in the basement that you need to slowly unravel as you go through, the Suffolk County Elementary School's pink paste program, Hyde park & the Gunner's turning them all against each other, the infighting and betrayal that surrounds the gunners - especially as concerns the fallout of Quincy. There's a ton of really great tragic, thought out, or comical content that's not quest related or something that you directly interact with as much as you find it in the background (more of that direct interactable storyline would have been nice though I wouldn't have wanted to lose any of the passive story content that helps build so much of the world and sets the tone for the game).

[factotum]

I'd have to agree...the one thing Bethesda seems to be any good at is world-building. What they're not good at is populating those worlds with compelling characters and storylines.

[Brookshw]

I'd have to agree...the one thing Bethesda seems to be any good at is world-building. What they're not good at is populating those worlds with compelling characters and storylines.

Characters are hit and miss, but the storytelling part baffles me because clearly they have the ability to tell a good story. For example the Fens sewer and the story between the sociopath/murder and the detective. That was good, engaging, I wanted to know how it ended. But why aren't I teamed up with the detective on the chase? The environmental story is cool, so if they have the ability, why didn't it manifest in more interesting quests? Dunwich Bowers is another example.

Is it just certain mandatory parts of the main story that give a bad impression?

[Triaxx]

Because it was actually a pre-war thing, so the detective was long dead.

[Rynjin]

The UnBogus stuffed seemed interesting enough I actually started a new FO4 playthrough. So far I'm liking the Perks changes, made Action Girl worth taking for sure.

Used Start Me Up to start as an NCR Ranger monitoring Quincy, started at a higher level. It was nice.

[Brookshw]

Because it was actually a pre-war thing, so the detective was long dead.

Point being why are the stories I'm playing a part in not equally compelling if they have the writing ability to create such a story in the first place. :smallconfused:

[LibraryOgre]

I mean, consider Vault 11. That story was creepy, compelling... and totally didn't involve you, at all.

[Balmas]

I'd have to agree...the one thing Bethesda seems to be any good at is world-building. What they're not good at is populating those worlds with compelling characters and storylines.

I disagree, though I think we might also disagree on the exact definition of good world-building.

To me, proper world-building means that you put thought into a world, of its groups and factions, of the resources, geography, ecology, countries, and so forth. You twist and poke, and figure out how they play together. What does a city need? What does it produce for trade? Is it self-sufficient? Who wants what they have, and how are they trying to take it? When you're done, you have a world that's mostly coherent.

Bethesda doesn't do world building. The more you think about their worlds, the less their worlds make sense. Why is the main trade center of the Commonwealth Diamond City, instead of the more conveniently located and less mutant-infested Bunker Hill? How come you have all the gun vendors in the world, but nobody actually producing more guns? How does Goodneighbor stay alive when it has no food and doesn't produce anything to trade? Why are there skeletons that nobody's touched for two hundred years? How come you have mutants, mirelurks, raiders, and gunners all in the same fifty feet square, with nobody fighting each other? How come the Forged at Saugus Ironworks don't come out and try to take over the Slog, even though they're within spitting distance of each other?

No, what Bethesda is good at is vignettes. They make little disconnected scenes for the player to stumble across, scatter notes across it. They tell a tiny fragment of story, but then don't ever let that story touch the world. It's good, certainly, but it's not world-building.

[Triaxx]

For one, Diamond City isn't the trade center. It just happens to be the largest settlement by virtue of being easily defensible. Bunker Hill is the equivalent of Canterbury Common, meaning it's basically a place where the Caravans were encouraged to come and go from, but that doesn't have enough space or resources to really be a huge city. Goodneighbor on the other hand, is in a very odd position. It's smack in the middle of mutant territory, surrounded by Ferals and with a really confusingly hard to find entry. I suspect they do business primarily with the more respectable flavor of Raiders, the ones who can pass as people instead of just violent murder machines. Not to mention the Triggermen and Gunners that are allowed in as long as they behave. It's like Fallout 2's Den, where it doesn't really produce much, but criminal enterprise keeps the cash flowing through enough to keep it alive.

And the Forged are complete and totally nutters.

@Rynjin: Glad you're liking it. I might have to give it a go once I get another itch to start over.

[Brookshw]

I disagree, though I think we might also disagree on the exact definition of good world-building.

To me, proper world-building means that you put thought into a world, of its groups and factions, of the resources, geography, ecology, countries, and so forth. You twist and poke, and figure out how they play together. What does a city need? What does it produce for trade? Is it self-sufficient? Who wants what they have, and how are they trying to take it? When you're done, you have a world that's mostly coherent.

But that's here, the raider groups regularly have references to one another and relationships, there's a whole history re: to the minutemen/provincial govt/gunners/institute, including parts where we get conflicting info and have to decide what to believe. The gunners have an MO on what they're after and where you generally find them. Quests to maintain the water in Diamond city, find out what's going on w/ the doctor, repair the wall, history of super mutant attacks, gangsters, classism, drug trade, etc. The elements related you're asking for appear to already be there :smallconfused:



Bethesda doesn't do world building. The more you think about their worlds, the less their worlds make sense. Why is the main trade center of the Commonwealth Diamond City, instead of the more conveniently located and less mutant-infested Bunker Hill? How come you have all the gun vendors in the world, but nobody actually producing more guns? How does Goodneighbor stay alive when it has no food and doesn't produce anything to trade? Why are there skeletons that nobody's touched for two hundred years? How come you have mutants, mirelurks, raiders, and gunners all in the same fifty feet square, with nobody fighting each other? How come the Forged at Saugus Ironworks don't come out and try to take over the Slog, even though they're within spitting distance of each other?

Re: Diamond City, security? Pretty sure in addition to the wall they have a nice security corridor and the area to the south is generally clear. And it doesn't have a monopoly, bunker hill also acts as a hub. New guns are being created, at least I'm pretty sure pipe rifles are new, and there's nothing to suggest people don't make guns, there's certainly a ton of weapon benches around and settlers use them regularly. Goodneighbor has a rocking drug and generally black market trade going on (plus actual goods to trade). All factions fight among themselves regularly, you've never stumbled on a gunner v. raider v. BS v. mutant 4 way fight before? It's hardly rare. Slog v. Forged? Why do you shear the sheep but not kill them?

Heck, take Salem for an example. Didn't have what it needed to keep going, fell apart, and you get a tiny quest to help the sole survivor. Sensible, right?

There are answers available, and most are perfectly reasonable. I disagree with all your objections except for the skeleton thing. However that blends into the background and setting for me so I don't care. If it grates then that's fair, but I don't think it begins to tip the scales when weighed against everything they did right. I'll agree we could probably find a few examples of bad writing with some digging, but disagree about its prevalence.

[Balmas]

But that's here, the raider groups regularly have references to one another and relationships, there's a whole history re: to the minutemen/provincial govt/gunners/institute, including parts where we get conflicting info and have to decide what to believe. The gunners have an MO on what they're after and where you generally find them. Quests to maintain the water in Diamond city, find out what's going on w/ the doctor, repair the wall, history of super mutant attacks, gangsters, classism, drug trade, etc. The elements related you're asking for appear to already be there :smallconfused:

There's a difference between having a history you can read about and having that actually influence the world.
Let's pick at just one of those groups, shall we?

The Gunners are a mercenary group.
What is their goal? Presumably, it's a matter of profit. They want money. The question then becomes, okay, so if they want money, who's hiring them? Terminal entries tell us that they work for traders occasionally, but that's not borne out by what we actually see in game. We can't hire them, certainly. They're hostile to raiders, BOS, Minutemen, mutants, ghouls, Railroad, Institute, and evidently the caravans by whom they're ostensibly employed. So from what we see in the world, instead of the little terminal entries, they're a mercenary company who are hostile to everyone and have no customers.

Okay, ignore that little hiccup. What is this merc company with no customers doing? What is their MO? They go and take over locations like Hub City Autowreckers, or the Bradburton overpass, or Quincy, or Vault 95. They're big, secure locations that are easily defensible. Okay, so what are they doing with their nice defensible positions?

They're... sitting there. Doing recon on other threats in the area. Normally, I'd look at that behavior and call it establishing outposts or base camps, but for what purpose? They don't have customers, so why bother expanding into that area? I could understand Quincy; the Minutemen were a competing defense force which would cut into the Gunner bottom line. But what about the rest?

As is, we're left with a mercenary company equipped with top-of-the-line equipment, but who are hostile to everything that's not a gunner, who have no customers we can see, and who do virtually no jobs. You can read terminal entries about the different leaders and how they interact with one another, but you'll never see it influence their behavior in real life. Their leaders are carbon copies of every other gunner, except they're using better gear when they're instantly trying to kill you. You can't talk to them, hire them, use them to defend a settlement, or interact with them in any way except to put bullets in heads.

That's not worldbuilding. That's a way for the game to distribute combat armor.


Re: Diamond City, security? Pretty sure in addition to the wall they have a nice security corridor and the area to the south is generally clear.
That's actually a good point. I hadn't considered the value of a secure place for people to live and trade. A fortified location could develop a town inside it just by virtue of "we can hide here when the raiders come." Security would make it an ideal place for caravans to stop in at.

I still question what they have to trade with, though. What do they produce that would entice a trader to come in and barter for? They're self-sufficient with the food and water they have; do they produce enough to have a surplus for trade? Solomon makes drugs; does he have enough to export them to other towns? What makes this town run besides "We have a market where all the people who don't make anything can trade their nothing with other people"?


New guns are being created, at least I'm pretty sure pipe rifles are new, and there's nothing to suggest people don't make guns, there's certainly a ton of weapon benches around and settlers use them regularly.

Pipe weapons I'll give you, but what about all the rest of them? You can't make weapons at weapon benches, only modify them. Where are all the new assault rifles and combat rifles coming from? Who supplies the Gunners with all those fancy weapons and suits of combat armor they've got? Where do Arturo and KL-E-O get their stock? Is there an invisible backroom in each location with a sweatshop making weapons? Or scavengers who head out into the commonwealth to bring back guns from pre-war military bases? Who's making the bullets?

There's nothing to suggest that people aren't making guns, but there's also nobody in the game you can point to and say, "they do it." Guns just pop up in vendors' inventory, fully fledged, and on every enemy in the Commonwealth. I mean, look at Witcher or New Vegas, where you have smiths or the Gun Runners/Van Graffs, groups who explicitly build most of the weapons around based on pre-war diagrams. There's even a quest acknowledging the value of this weapon manufacturing because other people want to get in on it.


All factions fight among themselves regularly, you've never stumbled on a gunner v. raider v. BS v. mutant 4 way fight before? It's hardly rare.

They fight, but only once the player's there to witness the fight. If you take their spawn points as evidence of what they've been doing, then either they've settled into a truce where nobody bothers anybody else until the player arrives, or they're so nearsighted that they can't see the opposing group literally thirty feet away. Heck, there's one point in south Boston where you can sit in a raider camp and spy raiders about eighty feet away, and for whatever reason neither group wants to fight the other.


Slog v. Forged? Why do you shear the sheep but not kill them?

Why do you look at the sheep, ripe for shearing, and completely ignore them? Why is the sheep more worried about the mutants miles away than the raiders literally right next door?


There are answers available, and most are perfectly reasonable. I disagree with all your objections except for the skeleton thing. However that blends into the background and setting for me so I don't care. If it grates then that's fair, but I don't think it begins to tip the scales when weighed against everything they did right. I'll agree we could probably find a few examples of bad writing with some digging, but disagree about its prevalence.

Eh, agree to disagree is fair.

Goodneighbor on the other hand, is in a very odd position. It's smack in the middle of mutant territory, surrounded by Ferals and with a really confusingly hard to find entry. I suspect they do business primarily with the more respectable flavor of Raiders, the ones who can pass as people instead of just violent murder machines. Not to mention the Triggermen and Gunners that are allowed in as long as they behave. It's like Fallout 2's Den, where it doesn't really produce much, but criminal enterprise keeps the cash flowing through enough to keep it alive.

...See, now I'm wishing they'd really played that up. You'd have a morally grey town that does business with people the game paints as evil, and have to ask yourself questions about the people you're facing. If this town is just people trying to make the best of a bad situation, what's that say about the raiders? If you were to change the system enough, could you help them to make a better life for themselves that doesn't involve preying on others?

[Triaxx]

Since Diamond City is visited by Caravan's, I assume it's the source of the shipments, if for no reason other than the wall. I mean Joe Schmo the settler might rediscover the secret to producing Ballistic Fiber, and then get killed by some random raider. While Diamond City provides enough safety to rediscover those things. Annoyingly there's no evidence of the necessary industry. I mean Piper is writing her paper on a pre-war terminal, and printing on what looks like the original Printing Press.

I could have sworn there was a terminal that explained the Gunners employer was supposed to be from outside the Commonwealth. But I might be confusing them with TALON COMPANY! (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Brookshw]

The Gunners are a mercenary group.
What is their goal? Presumably, it's a matter of profit. They want money. The question then becomes, okay, so if they want money, who's hiring them? Terminal entries tell us that they work for traders occasionally, but that's not borne out by what we actually see in game. We can't hire them, certainly. They're hostile to raiders, BOS, Minutemen, mutants, ghouls, Railroad, Institute, and evidently the caravans by whom they're ostensibly employed. So from what we see in the world, instead of the little terminal entries, they're a mercenary company who are hostile to everyone and have no customers. Actually, you can find gunners guarding traveling merchants, and these gunners are not hostile to the player. They have a job and aren't being paid to shoot you, so they don't. So......yeah, they do actually function in their purported role. What's odd though is the number of them compared to the number of customers we see. On another note, often if you approach them they call out a warning first and only open fire when you keep approaching. It's not a very big opportunity to turn and run but it does exist, so there's a bit more to their aggression than initially appears. I will agree that they aren't as well developed as I would like, but we also never actually meet their head so I won't be surprised if they crop up in the next Fallout with more development.


What is their MO? They go and take over locations like Hub City Autowreckers, or the Bradburton overpass, or Quincy, or Vault 95. They're big, secure locations that are easily defensible. Okay, so what are they doing with their nice defensible positions?

They're... sitting there. Doing recon on other threats in the area. Normally, I'd look at that behavior and call it establishing outposts or base camps, but for what purpose? They don't have customers, so why bother expanding into that area? I could understand Quincy; the Minutemen were a competing defense force which would cut into the Gunner bottom line. But what about the rest?

They definitely do take up defensible positions, but they also appear to have another purpose searching high tech and medical areas, for example Hallucigen, the Malden Medical facility, the Medical Facility in downtown Boston which I forget the name of, Parson's Sanitarium or whatever it's proper name was. And as above, they do have customers. They're doing something and it's not just taking easily defensible locations, but we have to speculate at what their purpose is. They even have a pattern of dealing with ex-gunners, i.e., they don't care if you leave as long as your not competition, for example the ex-gunners we meet in Nuka World (and I think there's another group in the Commonwealth) are left alone after they leave, whereas Macready is targetted for competing with them as demonstrated during your meeting with him in Goodneighbor. and the two gunners shaking him down.



That's not worldbuilding. That's a way for the game to distribute combat armor. There's more to them than you give them credit for I think though I agree it's a bit strange there's never a meaningful interaction with them, missed opportunity. Would have been interesting if you could have hired them as part of the end game or to provide security for settlements. This is also just one faction in the game.


I still question what they have to trade with, though. What do they produce that would entice a trader to come in and barter for? They're self-sufficient with the food and water they have; do they produce enough to have a surplus for trade? Solomon makes drugs; does he have enough to export them to other towns? What makes this town run besides "We have a market where all the people who don't make anything can trade their nothing with other people"? Walking through downtown Boston (IRL) I see lot's of stores but no indication where the goods are coming from. So? You might be asking a bit too much after they already showed us that there is some production going on. Let's not forget that traders come from outside of the Commonwealth so trade is surprisingly widespread.



Pipe weapons I'll give you, but what about all the rest of them? You can't make weapons at weapon benches, only modify them. Where are all the new assault rifles and combat rifles coming from? Who supplies the Gunners with all those fancy weapons and suits of combat armor they've got? Where do Arturo and KL-E-O get their stock? Is there an invisible backroom in each location with a sweatshop making weapons? Or scavengers who head out into the commonwealth to bring back guns from pre-war military bases? Who's making the bullets?

There's nothing to suggest that people aren't making guns, but there's also nobody in the game you can point to and say, "they do it." Guns just pop up in vendors' inventory, fully fledged, and on every enemy in the Commonwealth. I mean, look at Witcher or New Vegas, where you have smiths or the Gun Runners/Van Graffs, groups who explicitly build most of the weapons around based on pre-war diagrams. There's even a quest acknowledging the value of this weapon manufacturing because other people want to get in on it. And Laser Muskets, likely a much higher technological requirement to make. More I suppose when we consider that Bowling Ball gun in Far Harbor. So what we can reasonably infer is that the Commonwealth possesses the capacity to develop ballistic and energy weapons. But the player can't make these from scratch right? So what gives? I don't think it's a giant mystery that the player has a different experience in the game, and they've left you to scavenge/buy what you want rather than build it (barring mods), it's a scenes-a-faire for a post-apocalypse game. So? As you agreed, there's nothing that suggests people aren't making weapons, so why do we need to point to one or two organizations to say "they do it"? Instead, if it's widespread enough (and there sure are weapon benches everywhere) isn't it more likely that the capacity is generally available and there's not as much need for competition (and the NV competition is pretty fitting to the mob competition sort of thing going on there which is not as prevalent here, though see drug manufacturing below).

Now let's parallel this for a moment and talk about Wilson Atomatoys. We have their headquarters downtown, which we get to explore, find out about the history of the company and how they shifted their manufacturing, the heart wrenching backstory to the Ghoul in the Slog that just wanted to make the giddyup buttercup toys and how his daughter just wanted to spend with him (and who ultimately just wants to go home - which coincidentally is a giant hole in the ground after the bombs fell per his notes). So we know who was working there and making the toys, but where were they making them? Well, we have the Wilson Automatoys factory in the south, so that mystery is solved. And the last piece of the story, the ghoul leaves to go home, but where is that? Well, go to the big Cambridge crater after he receives his daughters holotape and takes off and you'll see him pass through the crater visiting his home for, potentially, the last time.

So it's all explained, all the places do exist, and it's clear the devs were thinking about these chains of manufacturing your concerned with.

As another example, you can find out about a massive drug manufacturing ring with the manufacturing taking place down near the castle (I forget the name of the building it's in, some cannery or some such, the one with all the laser tripwires outside that form the locking mechanism to get in) so it's not like Wilson's a one off.

(edit: the DLC Contraptions, go make all those things you're questioning where they came from. What was the question again?)


They fight, but only once the player's there to witness the fight. If you take their spawn points as evidence of what they've been doing, then either they've settled into a truce where nobody bothers anybody else until the player arrives, or they're so nearsighted that they can't see the opposing group literally thirty feet away. Heck, there's one point in south Boston where you can sit in a raider camp and spy raiders about eighty feet away, and for whatever reason neither group wants to fight the other. Again, Hyde Park showed us a story of the gunners turning raiders against each other out and preparing to move in, there are a lot of raider bodies scattered around as a result. The raider gangs make regular reference to fighting one another. So there is conflict between the factions "off screen". That the AI isn't triggered in all instances to give you an "on screen" fight seem trivial.




Why do you look at the sheep, ripe for shearing, and completely ignore them? Why is the sheep more worried about the mutants miles away than the raiders literally right next door? Do they ignore them? I'm not entirely sure they do, and the Forged sure are happy to attack any supply lines that go through their turf. I suppose another note about the Forged is they have a bit of a stalemate going on with Autocity Wreckers' gunners.



Eh, agree to disagree is fair. might be that's all we're going to get. And on further thought I'm glad to admit some things are just...well...stupid. Like the kid in the fridge quest. Kid sat in a tiny box for two hundred years then came out without as something other than a feral maddened creature? Stupid.

[Balmas]

Might be that's all we're going to get. And on further thought I'm glad to admit some things are just...well...stupid. Like the kid in the fridge quest. Kid sat in a tiny box for two hundred years then came out without as something other than a feral maddened creature? Stupid.

Oh, absolutely. There's so many things wrong with that quest it's not even funny. Kid gets locked into a fridge and A) survives a nuke, B) doesn't starve to death or die of thirst. He then stays there for C) two hundred years D) without going insane or becoming a feral ghoul or E) being discovered by the Minutemen, or the gunners, or his parents who F) are also still alive, ghoulified, and sane and G) are still living within two hundred feet of the fridge in which their son was trapped.

[factotum]

This goes back to what we've said before, though--the entire world of Fallout 4 makes sense for a world that's maybe 10 or 20 years after the nuclear apocalypse. Untouched skeletons, loads of stuff still left to scavenge in major towns, Diamond City being a bunch of tin shacks, maybe even the kid in the fridge, would make sense in a world where so little time had been available for rebuilding. It's Bethesda's insistence on shifting the whole thing 200 years into the future that turns all these things into "Huh?" moments.

[LibraryOgre]

This goes back to what we've said before, though--the entire world of Fallout 4 makes sense for a world that's maybe 10 or 20 years after the nuclear apocalypse. Untouched skeletons, loads of stuff still left to scavenge in major towns, Diamond City being a bunch of tin shacks, maybe even the kid in the fridge, would make sense in a world where so little time had been available for rebuilding. It's Bethesda's insistence on shifting the whole thing 200 years into the future that turns all these things into "Huh?" moments.

In a lot of ways, Fallout makes a WHOLE lot more sense if Fallout 1 was really Fallout 3, and Fallout 2 was Fallout 4... let Fallout 3 open the series, Fallout 4 be 10 years later, and Fallout 1 be the future. Of course, there's all sorts of timeline silliness inherent in that, but, well, there you are...

Fallout 1 was designed so you're just a couple generations out from the Apocalypse... Shady Sands and Junktown are post-apocalyptic towns, in a couple different styles. Fallout 2 isn't too bad from that standpoint. You've got nascent empires, new societies built up from vault survivors, and the fringe of tribals and outland communities (Klamath and The Den). New Vegas even fairly reasonably follows on to Fallout 2.

Fallout 3? Is there a SINGLE new building in the entire wasteland? That isn't a tin shack? Everything is 200 year old buildings filled with rubble.

[Brookshw]

This goes back to what we've said before, though--the entire world of Fallout 4 makes sense for a world that's maybe 10 or 20 years after the nuclear apocalypse. Untouched skeletons, loads of stuff still left to scavenge in major towns, Diamond City being a bunch of tin shacks, maybe even the kid in the fridge, would make sense in a world where so little time had been available for rebuilding. It's Bethesda's insistence on shifting the whole thing 200 years into the future that turns all these things into "Huh?" moments.

Yeah. Scenes a faire is the best explanation I can offer. Ah well, if it bothers someone then it bothers them.

Here's something I've been pondering, how did the Institute get the FEV virus?

FEV was found by the Master in Mariposa military base in the North West and we first encounter it in 2164 when the Fallout 1 is set. Presumably the master is in his early stages of building up as his army hasn't moved out to wipe the wastelands and give everyone the dunk.

Yet somehow in 2178, 14 years later, the Institute begins experimenting w/ FEV. So where did they get it? What connection did they have to the west coast? In the post war world we have a limited number of organizations that have transcended the great divide in the middle of the country, the Enclave, the Brotherhood, and maybe mutants themselves having trecked across it. Alternatively, Mr. House was a CIT graduate, possessed advanced technology, and had a long reach. So, though highly tentative, there's a connection there as well. There's also Vault 87 on the east coast. Then we also the possibility that pre-war there were samples on both coasts (makes sense maybe as we know the Robobrain program took place on both coasts).

The Enclave and Brotherhood are pretty anti-mutant so it seems unlikely either would have given it to them, though possibly for the purpose of trying to find a way to fight the mutants. However the Brotherhood are on the east coast when the Institute began experimenting, and the Enclave was in touch w/ the east coast via eyebots so might have been hard to send FEV samples back and forth (and why would they have?). I can't recall any evidence that the Institute was in touch with the Enclave, and the Brotherhood certainly isn't fans of the Institute so doesn't seem like they would have actively worked with the Institute on FEV.

So what about the east coast version a'la Vault 87? Well, the vault is still plenty populated by Super Mutants in Fallout 3 so doesn't seem like an Institute squad would have gone in and retrieved the virus. Could the Institute have reverse engineered it from a Super Mutant? Possibly I guess but I don't recall something conclusive that suggest it (admittedly I haven't gone through the FEV lab in a while).

CIT may have had a pre-war sample, sure. Makes sense. But why did they wait 100 years to begin experimenting with it? That seems odd given who they are, so it seems more likely they acquired it later.

House could have done it I suppose, he certainly has the ability and maybe wanted to support his almamatter, and has an incentive because mutants are a threat to his attempts to build his own empire in NV. But, again there's no evidence he actually did contact them and we haven't seen any securitrons on the east coast that I can think of so it's questionable at best.

Are there undisclosed sources of FEV out there that they may have acquired it from? Could be, they definitely have an interest in the other major research centers that remained and raid them for technology.

Am I forgetting somethinig in the FEV lab that explained how the Institute got the virus, or was there another explanation given in the game somewhere? If not, anyone have a theory?

[Triaxx]

I assumed CIT was the ones that originated the research that led the Military to the FEV.

[Brookshw]

I assumed CIT was the ones that originated the research that led the Military to the FEV.

Nope, that was West-tek (from the name I assume they originated on the west coast). West-tek got wiped out.

[GloatingSwine]

It's better not to try and relate Bethesdout's excuse to shoot orcs Super Mutants to Fallout. It doesn't work.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, I got me a Switch and Breath of the Wild, and I must say...

Nintendo absolutely dominated Bethesda at their own game, which is to say, open sandbox games.

In Breath, you can, if you really want to, go straight for Gannon right after finishing the tutorial that, coincidentally, gives you all the tools you need to solve any challenge in the game. Not for the faint of heart, of course, as you'll still have at most four hearts facing him, which puts you into one-shot kill territory with any of his attacks, and you still have to do the boss-rush thing since you skipped the Beasts, but you CAN do it and people HAVE. There is a plot, and it does direct you to go to a place and talk to a person for more plot, but never does it *FORCE* you to do so. You can shrug off the old man's advise and head straight into Gerudo Desert once you jump off the tutorial plateau, and have a lot of fun doing it.

There's plenty of weapons, which was a departure from most Zelda games, but falls right in line with most other open world games, and weapons break, which means you cannot just fight all the things and come out ahead. Which is very similar to how ammo works in Fallout, shooting super mutants in the face repeatedly costs you lots of caps because the damn things are bullet sponges and simply WILL NOT DIE, and you can run out of bullets. This gives a strategic element to combat, asking yourself 'will this fight be profitable for me?'. And if not, you have several ways of simply leaving.

But most importantly, it gives you an immersive world to explore. It's a hundred years post-calamity, and it is obvious. Stonework is in ruins, there are practically no unoccupied wooden buildings left, you'll see at best a dilapidated wall and the stone slab foundation. There are areas that are lived in, and there are travelers, but they are few and far between, and mostly in the less dangerous areas. And in those populated areas, the place is more kept up and in repair, so you won't find ruined houses in a major populated area. Which also makes sense, because the locals would have, at worst, simply demolished it for lumber or other materials, if not refurbished it for living in. You even have an environment which will affect your tactical or even strategic decisions. You most certainly will not be climbing any mountains while it is raining, for example, and thunderstorms means you break out the non-metallic gear. You need cold-weather gear (or buffs) to survive cold climates, and you need gear designed for hot weather (or, again, buffs) to thrive in warmer climates. Hell, they have an actual reason for respawns that work within the contest of the game lore!

Likewise, the combat is actually superior in Breath. The moves are simple, but you need precision timing to pull off 'badass' moves like flurry strikes or shield-reflects. Sure, you get bullet time with the bow in the air, but that's a heck of a lot less immersion-breaking than VATS is, and achieves roughly the same goal. The game rewards precision with things like head-shots doing more damage to most enemies, flurry rushes and shield ripostes, and the energy system (unlike a certain OTHER Link game that people politely pretend doesn't exist) actually works well with these mechanics. If you want to do them more, you invest in your energy bar instead of your health bar, which is a trade-off. If you 'get good', you can invest exclusively in energy if you wish (with the exception of a certain item that requires a minimum number of hearts to obtain) and completely dominate, as long as you bring your leet skills.

Without even trying, Breath of the Wild put FO4 to *SHAME*.

Even better, is that Breath is simply going back to Zelda's original roots back in the '80's. When I first got my copy of Legend of Zelda, I got it at a used game store, without the map or the booklet. It took me a month of playing to find my first dungeon (it was actually Dungeon 3), but I almost didn't care because I was having so much fun exploring the world. I would probably say the original Legend of Zelda was the very first Sandbox game, or at least one of the first.

So.... yea. Bethesda... start taking notes. Go ahead and crib if you want, at this point you could use all the help you can get. Look at what Breath did right that you've been screwing up, before your company goes belly up.

[Anteros]

I'm thinking that I'm just going to hold off on playing FO4 at all for a while. I really don't enjoy the PS4 controls, and the game itself hasn't grabbed me. I think I'll pick it up on Steam whenever the GOTY edition goes on sale.

[Triaxx]

Yeah, for all that people wave the I hate Nintendo flag because they produce games that are not 'mature' which is to say bloody gore fests, they do make awesome games.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, for all that people wave the I hate Nintendo flag because they produce games that are not 'mature' which is to say bloody gore fests, they do make awesome games.Really? Haven't heard that one. I've heard a lot of hate for Nintendo about their asinine policies regarding Youtube and livestreaming in general, though.

[Triaxx]

I've been a Nintendo fan forever, and so I've heard it all.

Though to be fair, they did take quite a bit of inspiration from things like Skyrim. (And then added a writing team that hadn't been lobotomised.)

[GloatingSwine]

So.... yea. Bethesda... start taking notes. Go ahead and crib if you want, at this point you could use all the help you can get. Look at what Breath did right that you've been screwing up, before your company goes belly up.

Knowing Bethesda the note they'll settle on is bringing back weapon degradation.

Seriously Nintendo, who thought it was cool to have swords explode if you wave them slightly too vigorously at a bokoblin?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Knowing Bethesda the note they'll settle on is bringing back weapon degradation.

Seriously Nintendo, who thought it was cool to have swords explode if you wave them slightly too vigorously at a bokoblin?

I actually like this feature within the context of Breath of the Wild. You're having all kinds of weapons constantly thrown at you, so there's NEVER a point where you should be completely out of weapons, and several areas with respawning weapons in the off-hand chance that you do. So it isn't really that much of an issue, other than making you think about NOT taking on every bokoblin camp you encounter.

Besides, the weapons you get from defeating the Divine Beasts are effectively* immortal, so it's not a problem, and really makes those weapons feel awesome because you don't have to worry about them

* You can repair them if they break, or at least make new ones with stuff that respawns.

[GloatingSwine]

I didn't. Being showered with disposable trash isn't what I like about Zelda games.

Also, if all the swords weren't made of papier mache and twigs maybe we wouldn't be having all these Ganon problems.

[Triaxx]

Sounds like too much F3 and not enough NV. Weapons in 3 are a bit too fragile, while NV added the maintenance thing.

I assume there's no repair mechanic except the super weapons?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't. Being showered with disposable trash isn't what I like about Zelda games.

Also, if all the swords weren't made of papier mache and twigs maybe we wouldn't be having all these Ganon problems.

Most of the well-constructed weapons have quite the durability on them. You wouldn't expect a tree branch to last forever, would you? Besides, the problem becomes a non-issue once you beat a Divine Beast, as all of those weapons have enormous durability and can be rebuilt with items that respawn. Plus, yanno, Master Sword (with the trials completed to fully beef it up).

Even the Hylian Shield will respawn if it breaks. Wait for the next blood moon after the shield breaks and go kill the Stalhinox again.

And, there's never a scenario in which you should not be absolutely swimming in weapons anyway, I've had more problems deciding what to keep than running out. So not sure what your problem is.

[LibraryOgre]

So, I have a Pandora station for Fallout-style music, since I can listen to it on the public desk at work, and Glenn Miller's "I've Got a Girl in Kalamazoo" came on, and I was thinkin'... if you wanted to decide where to go next with a Fallout sequel, building it around a song isn't a bad idea. Imagine Fallout: Detroit.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, I have a Pandora station for Fallout-style music, since I can listen to it on the public desk at work, and Glenn Miller's "I've Got a Girl in Kalamazoo" came on, and I was thinkin'... if you wanted to decide where to go next with a Fallout sequel, building it around a song isn't a bad idea. Imagine Fallout: Detroit.

You'd be in the deepest parts of Legion territory, though. Kind of a rough area for someone who doesn't worship Caesar. But it has potential. I still think New Orleans would be *perfect* for the next setting, since it's about equidistant from all currently known factions, in a fairly inaccessible swampland, so there's all kinds of possibilities.

[Triaxx]

New Orleans is much closer to Caesar than Detroit. Closer still though to the Midwestern Brotherhood.

That said, I like both options.

[GloatingSwine]

And, there's never a scenario in which you should not be absolutely swimming in weapons anyway, I've had more problems deciding what to keep than running out. So not sure what your problem is.

I don't want to be swimming in individually valueless (because inevitably to be replaced) weapons though. I want a limited set of diverse upgrades like a Zelda game.

[Mando Knight]

You'd be in the deepest parts of Legion territory, though. Kind of a rough area for someone who doesn't worship Caesar. But it has potential. I still think New Orleans would be *perfect* for the next setting, since it's about equidistant from all currently known factions, in a fairly inaccessible swampland, so there's all kinds of possibilities.

It's Denver that's in Legion territory. Detroit, Michigan is too far north and east for Caesar, and is one of the best spots in the Midwest for a BoS vs BoS splinter group showdown (others being Chicago and St. Louis) given its history as the automotive capital of the US.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's Denver that's in Legion territory. Detroit, Michigan is too far north and east for Caesar, and is one of the best spots in the Midwest for a BoS vs BoS splinter group showdown (others being Chicago and St. Louis) given its history as the automotive capital of the US.

Oh. Right. My bad. Huge collossal derp on my part. Nevermind, and carry on. :smallredface:

You do have a point about BoS (cool) vs BoS (Stormtroopers) being ideal for that location. Although Boston and DC are close enough that one wonders if we'll ever see a Lyons vs Maxsons match, since they seem to be ideologically polar opposites of each other.

And instead of water being the dire need, considering it's on the Great Lakes, it's *heat*, or more specifically, power to generate heat.


I don't want to be swimming in individually valueless (because inevitably to be replaced) weapons though. I want a limited set of diverse upgrades like a Zelda game.Is that what defines a Zelda game for you? Well, you're certainly entitled to your decisions, I suppose.

For myself, it's part of a larger thing Breath did right... Verisimilitude. Also, it gives Link a chance to show off what a complete badass he is because he's able to demonstrate his proficiency in nearly every single weapon style humanity has invented.

I wouldn't call any weapon 'worthless' just because they break. They simply have a limited shelf life, so you have to be careful which encounters you choose to take on. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of navigation options, most of which enable you to bypass or run away from encounters.

I realize not everyone appreciates the jump from Action/Adventure to Sandbox RPG genre, but I like it. As always, YMMV.

[Brookshw]

So, I have a Pandora station for Fallout-style music, since I can listen to it on the public desk at work, and Glenn Miller's "I've Got a Girl in Kalamazoo" came on, and I was thinkin'... if you wanted to decide where to go next with a Fallout sequel, building it around a song isn't a bad idea. Imagine Fallout: Detroit.

But imagine the fun to be had with Minnesota, the voice acting alone......

[Mando Knight]

Although Boston and DC are close enough that one wonders if we'll ever see a Lyons vs Maxsons match, since they seem to be ideologically polar opposites of each other.

We won't (other than deserters from the Eastern BoS, like the Pitt's Ashur or the Commonwealth's wandering Squire), as Maxson's BoS is Lyons' (plus 3's Outcasts), ten years later after significant post-FO3 setbacks during which Maxson grew into being something of a hero-king, saving the Capital Wasteland from a Super Mutant threat and restoring the strength and honor of the Brotherhood after its decline in the interregnum between the Lyons' death and Maxson's ascension.

[Rynjin]

For myself, it's part of a larger thing Breath did right... Verisimilitude. Also, it gives Link a chance to show off what a complete badass he is because he's able to demonstrate his proficiency in nearly every single weapon style humanity has invented.

I wouldn't call any weapon 'worthless' just because they break. They simply have a limited shelf life, so you have to be careful which encounters you choose to take on. Fortunately, you have a wide variety of navigation options, most of which enable you to bypass or run away from encounters.

I realize not everyone appreciates the jump from Action/Adventure to Sandbox RPG genre, but I like it. As always, YMMV.

Two things:

1.) I really don't see how weapons breaking adds to verisimilitude. Especially not with HOW quickly they break. It actually takes away from the internal consistency of the world because it defies reason how fighters that aren't Link function in this world where steel has the consistency of papier mache.

2.) That's not really the issue, the issue is fun. It does not feel good to have things break on you all the time, especially when they're unrecoverably broken. It leads to "saving it for later" syndrome like powerful consumable items in other RPGs. "Can't use this elixir, might need it for the next boss", "Can't use this cool sword I picked up, might need it for the next fight". It instantly takes all the excitement out of loot when you know no matter how cool the weapon is it's going to break in about a dozen strikes.

It's a good game but the kind that would have heavily benefited from mod support to fix its more fun-killing mechanics.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Two things:

1.) I really don't see how weapons breaking adds to verisimilitude. Especially not with HOW quickly they break. It actually takes away from the internal consistency of the world because it defies reason how fighters that aren't Link function in this world where steel has the consistency of papier mache.

2.) That's not really the issue, the issue is fun. It does not feel good to have things break on you all the time, especially when they're unrecoverably broken. It leads to "saving it for later" syndrome like powerful consumable items in other RPGs. "Can't use this elixir, might need it for the next boss", "Can't use this cool sword I picked up, might need it for the next fight". It instantly takes all the excitement out of loot when you know no matter how cool the weapon is it's going to break in about a dozen strikes.

It's a good game but the kind that would have heavily benefited from mod support to fix its more fun-killing mechanics.

Huh, that's an interesting, and valid, perspective.

For myself, it's as much about the crapsack world that he's in, everything is breaking down and falling apart, even the tools he wields to try and make a difference in the world.

As for your second point... tell me, did you ever tell yourself 'can't use this stimpack, might need it for the next fight' or 'can't use that Jet, might save my life down the road'? After the first half hour of the game, that is. No? Same concept. Elixirs are user-crafted, you can easily make more, and you can easily farm ingredients to make more with absolutely no risk to yourself whatsoever. And UNLIKE Fallout, you have infinite carry capacity, so they won't even weigh you down (although perhaps not a fair comparison as Stimpacks and Chems don't have weight either).

On the topic of duration, I am not sure if you are being hyperbole or serious, but swords do not really break all that rapidly unless you're picking up the deliberately balanced 'high damage for low durability' type weapons like Dragonbone Clubs and such. I picked up a Knight's Broadsword in a chest on my way to see Impa... I still had that same sword when I eventually got to Vah Ruta.

At worst, the only thing I'd want included is a way to repair weapons, so when it is 'about to break', you switch to something else, head back somewhere, pay rupees to fix it up chappie, and bob's your uncle. But eh... that would totally ruin one of the best parts about the game...

Variety

You don't *HAVE* to have just a single weapon. Now you can explore with a wide plethora of weapons, each with their strengths and weaknesses, and enjoy the various different playstyles.

The game isn't about beating it, it's about experiencing it, and all the things along the way. Or at least that's what it is like to me. For a powergamer like myself who simply wants to 'beat all the things', it's quite a refreshing change, and a break from my usual min-maxing. I'm simply exploring the game and all it has to offer. Sure, eventually I'm going to get around to doing the whole plotline thing. But for now, I'm climbing every mountain, fording every stream, and stopping to smell the roses.

And once you take down the Divine Beasts, it doesn't matter anymore because the weapons you get from beating them are effectively unlimited supply, so you can use them to your heart's content, which obviates pretty much most of the weapons in the game other than the Lyonel weapons, and kind of turns your argument back on its head.

And it's something FO4 has almost none of. You already know, at level one, what weapon you want to use, which one is the 'optimal strat', and as far as variety... FO4 falls flat on its arse. For all that link is a silent protagonist and very rarely actually says anything to people, he's got more character interaction than the Sole Survivor of FO4 and his 'Yes, Scarcastic Yes, Greedy Yes, Not Right Now' answers.

[Triaxx]

Well, that's annoying. So, had a computer issue while attempting to record. Too Whit I missed a cleaning cycle due to weather, and the system shutdown with a loose SATA cable to blame. And when I cleaned and reconnected it, no internet.

Uploads are now temporarily suspended while I wait on a new LAN card. Many expletives are currently ensuing.

[Anteros]

Huh, that's an interesting, and valid, perspective.

For myself, it's as much about the crapsack world that he's in, everything is breaking down and falling apart, even the tools he wields to try and make a difference in the world.

As for your second point... tell me, did you ever tell yourself 'can't use this stimpack, might need it for the next fight' or 'can't use that Jet, might save my life down the road'? After the first half hour of the game, that is. No? Same concept. Elixirs are user-crafted, you can easily make more, and you can easily farm ingredients to make more with absolutely no risk to yourself whatsoever. And UNLIKE Fallout, you have infinite carry capacity, so they won't even weigh you down (although perhaps not a fair comparison as Stimpacks and Chems don't have weight either).

On the topic of duration, I am not sure if you are being hyperbole or serious, but swords do not really break all that rapidly unless you're picking up the deliberately balanced 'high damage for low durability' type weapons like Dragonbone Clubs and such. I picked up a Knight's Broadsword in a chest on my way to see Impa... I still had that same sword when I eventually got to Vah Ruta.


I can't speak for anyone else, but absolutely yes for me. I usually end these types of games with the maximum amount of whatever consumables it lets me carry. There is no such thing as "well, I guess I have enough, better start using them!"




At worst, the only thing I'd want included is a way to repair weapons, so when it is 'about to break', you switch to something else, head back somewhere, pay rupees to fix it up chappie, and bob's your uncle. But eh... that would totally ruin one of the best parts about the game...

Variety

You don't *HAVE* to have just a single weapon. Now you can explore with a wide plethora of weapons, each with their strengths and weaknesses, and enjoy the various different playstyles.

The game isn't about beating it, it's about experiencing it, and all the things along the way. Or at least that's what it is like to me. For a powergamer like myself who simply wants to 'beat all the things', it's quite a refreshing change, and a break from my usual min-maxing. I'm simply exploring the game and all it has to offer. Sure, eventually I'm going to get around to doing the whole plotline thing. But for now, I'm climbing every mountain, fording every stream, and stopping to smell the roses.


You can do all that without enforcing it on the player though. Let people decide how they want to play. If I want to use various styles? Let me. If I find one I enjoy and want to focus on it? Let me. Versatility ceases to be a bonus when it's enforced.




And once you take down the Divine Beasts, it doesn't matter anymore because the weapons you get from beating them are effectively unlimited supply, so you can use them to your heart's content, which obviates pretty much most of the weapons in the game other than the Lyonel weapons, and kind of turns your argument back on its head.


Isn't this basically when the game is over anyway? Rewarding me with items I can finally use once I have no more reason to play isn't great game design to me.

[Balmas]

First things first! For those of you who weren't aware, I've gotten back into Fallout 3! You can find the most recent video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5KBvR1VBsQ&t=1631s), as we go and reclaim America for the great King George the III.

I'm still thinking about when to do the DLC. Each of them feels like their own distinct chapter, since they each have a new landmass and explore different themes. I'd intended Chapter 2 to be Operation Anchorage, as a way to "gear up" the character, as well as explore some of the larger critiques of Fallout 3, but things don't look like they're going that way.

As for BOTW: To me, it all felt... samey, almost. The mechanics might have been interesting, certainly, but weapons all seemed to break down into two-handed smacky, two handed stabby, and broadsword, and the shrines were made up of the same puzzle mechanics that started to become mundane after the first dozen.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Isn't this basically when the game is over anyway? Rewarding me with items I can finally use once I have no more reason to play isn't great game design to me.

IF you listen to Plot, you get funneled into the Vah Ruta beast pretty much right out of Impa's conversation, which is still pretty early game. Beating that Divine Beast nets you a free rez on cooldown timer, and the best spear weapon in the game which you can rebuild if it ever breaks for a Zora Spear and a Diamond and five Flint. Flint is very easy to obtain. There's a repeatable quest offering a Diamond for ten Luminous Stone, and there's a chest directly underneath the ledge where the quest-giver is for the luminous stone for diamond hand-in that respawns every Blood Moon that has a Zora Spear which is the final ingredient in making the spear. The chest is in the water (you have to Magnesis it), but setting it on one of the islands around the pillars supporting the town will ensure it remains there for respawning purposes.

Congratulations, you now have effectively unlimited use spear after your first Divine Beast kill, still generally very much in the early to early-mid game, depending on how much grinding you did before tackling the first divine beast. Which also just so happens to be the best spear in the entire game, so you can pitch any other spear-type weapons you encounter. At first glance, spears seem to be very sub-par because they deal relatively low base damage, especially for a two-handed weapon. However, the reach and speed of a spear will more than make up for it, making it a very newbie friendly weapon class.

Remember, there's two hundred shrines scattered about Hyrule that you need to complete if you want the end-game gear and maxed stats. Unlike most recent Zelda games, the majority of the game is not either in a dungeon or traversing to one.

[Brookshw]

Anyone checked out the new fallout minis game (https://www.modiphius.com/fallout.html)? I'm very curious, half tempted to pick it up just to paint.

[Balmas]

So, I just started playing around with the FROST mod for Fallout 4, and wanted to get some thoughts down.

*ahem*

Screw this mod.

No, really. It's presented as a hardcore survival mod. It's designed around Survival Mode, which is already a negative in my mind, given that vanilla Survival mode is so tedious and bass-ackwards as to be virtually unplayable unmodded. Then FROST takes everything that's tedious about Survival mode, and blows it up to eleven.

Survival makes you sleep, eat, and drink. Naturally, that means that FROST makes all three of those so difficult to find as to be impossible. Water is actually the easiest to find; all you have to do to get purified water is to get three dirty water (irradiated and buggy), boil it at a cooking station (irradiated but no longer buggy), and then find a one-use water filter to finally turn your boiled water into purified water. Naturally, water filters are ultra rare; I've found two in four hours of looting. Finding food requires you to either take a perk so you're able to loot meat from corpses, or subsist from what you can scavenge. Good luck finding a clean bed, since the ones available are bug-infested and dirty.

Oh, and your needs feel like they're double what you have in Vanilla. And damage taken is at least double normal values. And stimpaks and radaway are about as common as winged pigs. So, just to stay alive, you get into this cycle of scavenging for food, finding enough bottles to make dirty water, finding a cooking station so you can boil it, looking for a bed so you can save, and losing all your progress because the increased needs mean you have exactly two HP and will die from a faint breeze.

Oh, and you have approximately sixty carry weight to use, so either you're wearing no armor or carrying virtually no guns.

But Balmas, you may say! You're doing it wrong! All those petty issues can be solved if you just build settlements! Except no, Naugrim has decided that building settlements is too lenient. You can take over a spot, if you're willing to take the sanity loss from slaughtering everyone there, since nobody will offer you quests to get them to ally with you. However, once you do that, you're unable to build anything technical until you go out and find the accompanying diagrams scattered around the world. Oh, and planting seeds is beyond you. The only food you can plant is glowing fungus or brain mold, to which you cannot assign settlers and which doesn't produce any food anyway. Not that you'll have settlers anyway, given that Local Leader, which allows you to build the radio beacon to repopulate the settlements, requires Charisma 10. So you have settlements that are only good for building furniture, and which lock you out of Lone Wanderer's X300% experience gain.

Ugh. At least Useful Crank means I can have a primary that never runs out of ammo.

[Triaxx]

Yeah, that water filtration thing made me quit. I had been enjoying the extreme challenge, but... Yeah.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah, that water filtration thing made me quit. I had been enjoying the extreme challenge, but... Yeah.

I think real life has a more rewarding survival mode. O.o

[Triaxx]

I suppose, but I have yet to find anyone willing to pay me to kill giant mutant crabs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, I just started playing around with the FROST mod for Fallout 4, and wanted to get some thoughts down.

*ahem*

Screw this mod.

No, really. It's presented as a hardcore survival mod. It's designed around Survival Mode, which is already a negative in my mind, given that vanilla Survival mode is so tedious and bass-ackwards as to be virtually unplayable unmodded. Then FROST takes everything that's tedious about Survival mode, and blows it up to eleven.

Survival makes you sleep, eat, and drink. Naturally, that means that FROST makes all three of those so difficult to find as to be impossible. Water is actually the easiest to find; all you have to do to get purified water is to get three dirty water (irradiated and buggy), boil it at a cooking station (irradiated but no longer buggy), and then find a one-use water filter to finally turn your boiled water into purified water. Naturally, water filters are ultra rare; I've found two in four hours of looting. Finding food requires you to either take a perk so you're able to loot meat from corpses, or subsist from what you can scavenge. Good luck finding a clean bed, since the ones available are bug-infested and dirty.

Oh, and your needs feel like they're double what you have in Vanilla. And damage taken is at least double normal values. And stimpaks and radaway are about as common as winged pigs. So, just to stay alive, you get into this cycle of scavenging for food, finding enough bottles to make dirty water, finding a cooking station so you can boil it, looking for a bed so you can save, and losing all your progress because the increased needs mean you have exactly two HP and will die from a faint breeze.

Oh, and you have approximately sixty carry weight to use, so either you're wearing no armor or carrying virtually no guns.

But Balmas, you may say! You're doing it wrong! All those petty issues can be solved if you just build settlements! Except no, Naugrim has decided that building settlements is too lenient. You can take over a spot, if you're willing to take the sanity loss from slaughtering everyone there, since nobody will offer you quests to get them to ally with you. However, once you do that, you're unable to build anything technical until you go out and find the accompanying diagrams scattered around the world. Oh, and planting seeds is beyond you. The only food you can plant is glowing fungus or brain mold, to which you cannot assign settlers and which doesn't produce any food anyway. Not that you'll have settlers anyway, given that Local Leader, which allows you to build the radio beacon to repopulate the settlements, requires Charisma 10. So you have settlements that are only good for building furniture, and which lock you out of Lone Wanderer's X300% experience gain.

Ugh. At least Useful Crank means I can have a primary that never runs out of ammo.

From what I was given to understand, FROST was basically someone going "Hey, remember DUST for F:NV? Yea, they were a bunch of pansies. Let's actually get serious with this one."

[Anteros]

Random question, but should I bother putting FO4 on my SSD? I don't remember load times ever being a thing in 3 or NV anyway, but I haven't played 4 yet.

[Triaxx]

It can't hurt. I'm getting slightly longer loads than I'd like, but speed is rarely a bad thing, as long as you have the room.

[Anteros]

I have plenty of room, but I try not to put things on there unless it makes a significant difference so that I don't fill it up with useless junk.

[Anteros]

So I've played for a few hours and man...this is just a frustratingly designed game. The Field of View is far too low, so you have to change that in the console. It uses mouse acceleration for some reason, so you have to edit that out in the ini file. While you're in there, you may as well fix the strange design decision to make horizontal mouse sensitivity doubly as sensitive as vertical sensitivity. I haven't figured out how to disable the annoying head bob yet, but that's next on my checklist to make the game actually playable.

It's like the people who designed this game deliberately set out to make things as intuitive as possible at every turn. Want to leave a crafting table? Press Tab and then Enter on the other side of the keyboard to confirm. Want to use a computer? Be prepared to sit through a strange meaningless delay every time you want to select something. Melee and throw grenade are the same button...who thought that was a good idea??? It's like everything was designed by a group of idiots. I'm barely out of the tutorial and I already had to stop to vent.

The saddest thing is that it seems like there might actually be a decent game underneath all this annoying stuff, but I'm not sure I have the patience to get to it. I know this game is a little older and you've all probably beat this topic to death, but I just needed to vent.

[factotum]

It's like the people who designed this game deliberately set out to make things as intuitive as possible at every turn. Want to leave a crafting table? Press Tab and then Enter on the other side of the keyboard to confirm. Want to use a computer? Be prepared to sit through a strange meaningless delay every time you want to select something. Melee and throw grenade are the same button...who thought that was a good idea??? It's like everything was designed by a group of idiots. I'm barely out of the tutorial and I already had to stop to vent.


I think you meant "unintuitive"? Anyway, the problems you mention with the controls are always the sort of compromises you get when they design the UI to work with a controller and then just directly transpose the controller buttons onto the keyboard, so it's not that they're a group of idiots--they're just a group of people too lazy to have a properly different control scheme on mouse and keyboard as you get on the controller.

Having said that, they at least put a bit more effort into making the FO4 UI work on mouse and keyboard than they did with the Skyrim one, which is still an awkward broken mess even on the Special Edition. Click on an item in a menu to select it? I'll just assume you mean "activate the currently selected item even if that isn't actually the item I clicked on".

[Triaxx]

What head bob? I keep seeing comments about it, but don't understand the problem.

Anyone tried one Acrobat's leg and cushioned on both sides? In theory it should add up to 100% but well, Bethesda.

[Anteros]

I think you meant "unintuitive"? Anyway, the problems you mention with the controls are always the sort of compromises you get when they design the UI to work with a controller and then just directly transpose the controller buttons onto the keyboard, so it's not that they're a group of idiots--they're just a group of people too lazy to have a properly different control scheme on mouse and keyboard as you get on the controller.

Having said that, they at least put a bit more effort into making the FO4 UI work on mouse and keyboard than they did with the Skyrim one, which is still an awkward broken mess even on the Special Edition. Click on an item in a menu to select it? I'll just assume you mean "activate the currently selected item even if that isn't actually the item I clicked on".

I actually meant "counter intuitive". Maybe it got auto corrected away or something.

[Mando Knight]

Press Tab and then Enter on the other side of the keyboard to confirm.

E will usually do most of the same things that Enter does (except obviously text entry fields).

[Anteros]

What head bob? I keep seeing comments about it, but don't understand the problem.

Anyone tried one Acrobat's leg and cushioned on both sides? In theory it should add up to 100% but well, Bethesda.

You've never noticed that your head bobs dramatically up and down every time you move? Especially when you run in power armor. Lucky you.

This game actually legitimately gave me motion sickness. I can play every other first person game in existence just fine, but some combination of the mouse acceleration, the head bob, and the low FOV makes me physically ill.


E will usually do most of the same things that Enter does (except obviously text entry fields).

I'll try that. Thanks. Still unintuitive, but not quite as annoying.

[Balmas]

You've never noticed that your head bobs dramatically up and down every time you move? Especially when you run in power armor. Lucky you.

This game actually legitimately gave me motion sickness. I can play every other first person game in existence just fine, but some combination of the mouse acceleration, the head bob, and the low FOV makes me physically ill.

There's a mod for that. (http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17632/?)

[Anteros]

There's a mod for that. (http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17632/?)

Thanks. I haven't quite sat down long enough to figure out modding for FO4 yet, but I'll probably install that sometime soon.

[Triaxx]

Ah. It wasn't significant on foot for me, and in power armor I expected it, so I'd have been disappointed if it wasn't there. But I can see why you'd want it gone.

[ArlEammon]

Any tips on how to level up?

[Triaxx]

Take thee forth into the wide world and slay thine foes for theyr juice of knowledge!

Unless you're in New Vegas where quests give much better rewards of XP than enemies do. But you can still kill enemies, you just need to kill a lot more of them. I don't remember which game you're in so...

[factotum]

Of course, the question "how do I level up?" might also mean "what stats and perks do I want to go for?", and it's even more important to know which game he's playing to answer that one!

[ArlEammon]

Of course, the question "how do I level up?" might also mean "what stats and perks do I want to go for?", and it's even more important to know which game he's playing to answer that one!

I'm doing Fallout 4

[Triaxx]

Ah, then what are you looking for? Stealthy builds? Melee builds? Gun builds? Power Armor builds? What did you like to play in previous games in the series?

[ArlEammon]

Ah, then what are you looking for? Stealthy builds? Melee builds? Gun builds? Power Armor builds? What did you like to play in previous games in the series?

I have an int score of 10 but my agility is pisspoor. I'm trying to build a gun's heavy character. ((I can move agility from 4 to 5 if I go up another level)

[Triaxx]

AGI 4 already gives you all the good perks. Any more are just bonus AP. Better to use the perks elsewhere. Are you using Gunslinger or Commando?

[ArlEammon]

AGI 4 already gives you all the good perks. Any more are just bonus AP. Better to use the perks elsewhere. Are you using Gunslinger or Commando?

Gunslinger

[Triaxx]

The only really good one then is Gun Fu who's rank 3 syncs very well with pistols. Ninja is useful for a stealth build, but with AGI that low I don't think that was what you had in mind.

Better to focus on weapon and armor modifying perks instead I'd say.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Gunslinger

In addition to the above, see if you can get your hands on a laser (NOT an Institute version). Laser Pistols are pretty awesome for Gunslingers, although you're going to want Science! 2 or 3 for the build.

With only Science! 2, you can get the following weapon:

Laser Gun: Base damage of 24

Maximized Capacitor (+13 dam)
Improved Sniper Barrel (+33 dam)
Sharpshooter's Grip (makes it a pistol compatible with Gunslinger)
Either Reflex Sight or Night Vision Scope, depending on your preference for scoped sniping or hip-fire
Fine Tuned Beam Focuser

Total damage per shot: 70 before perks

You would need Gun Nut 3 and a 44 pistol (you can get the snubnose outside of Goodsprings) to match that damage with combustion pistols. Or both Gun Nut and Gunslinger 4-5 for the Western Revolver.

[Triaxx]

Best thing I think is that you can have a pistol energy shotgun, but not a normal one I don't think. (Unless the double barrel with the shortest stock counts.) I like plasma weapons as my shotguns, but that's a later game concern.

I'd recommend seeing Arturo in Diamond City, because he sells a legendary laser weapon which does double damage to full health targets. Old Faithful is my choice for a weapon base.

[Mando Knight]

Lasers also let you have your pick of guaranteed legendary effects: besides Old Faithful's Instigating effect, there's Danse's Righteous Authority (Lucky), Prototype UP77 "Limitless Potential" (Never-Ending), Paladin Brandis's Survivor's Special (Bloodied), and the Mechanist's Protectron's Gaze (Rapid).

[Balmas]

Yep. If you're going with Gunslinger, I'd think long and hard about whether to pair it with VATS. VATS and Gunslinger is one of those nice minmax pairings, because pistols generally have a very low AP cost in VATS.

As Triaxx said, you want Old Faithful for your sniper. I'd also suggest running to the Cambridge Police Station and doing Danse's first quest there to get his Righteous Authority. Properly modded, you'll then have a quick-firing Righteous Authority to build crits in vats, and then an instigating laser sniper to get the most out of those crits.

[Anteros]

It frustrates me how many of the perks are centered around Vats since I have no intention of ever using it. If I wanted to press a single button on the keyboard to pause time and instantly kill any threatening enemy with no skill I'd just use the console. Vats sucks all of the fun and challenge out of the game.

I've got a few hours under my belt now, and I can definitely say that I don't like the setting or writing as much as NV or 3. The game also feels a lot easier than the last 2, and has a tendency to "gift" you nice things as opposed to making you earn them. I've barely done anything except wander for a few hours and I already have dogmeat, a suit of power armor, and a named gun that is one-shotting almost every enemy I face. Without even trying to earn any of them. I'm really not sure where the challenge or sense of progression is supposed to come from.

That said, despite my complaints it's still a fun game at times. There's just something special about gunning down ghouls in the ruins of a bombed out city while classical music plays in the background that not even Bethesda can screw up.

[ArlEammon]

It frustrates me how many of the perks are centered around Vats since I have no intention of ever using it. If I wanted to press a single button on the keyboard to pause time and instantly kill any threatening enemy with no skill I'd just use the console. Vats sucks all of the fun and challenge out of the game.

I've got a few hours under my belt now, and I can definitely say that I don't like the setting or writing as much as NV or 3. The game also feels a lot easier than the last 2, and has a tendency to "gift" you nice things as opposed to making you earn them. I've barely done anything except wander for a few hours and I already have dogmeat, a suit of power armor, and a named gun that is one-shotting almost every enemy I face. Without even trying to earn any of them. I'm really not sure where the challenge or sense of progression is supposed to come from.

That said, despite my complaints it's still a fun game at times. There's just something special about gunning down ghouls in the ruins of a bombed out city while classical music plays in the background that not even Bethesda can screw up.

Even my super gaming computer is just a little slow with Fallout 4 so I need Vats tremendously.

[Triaxx]

VATS took a good swift kick to the nadgers in Fallout 4. They took a look at Bullet Time, and shouted Bethesda! And poof, now VATS is a cut rate bullet time that doesn't slow the game enough, or stop time, so you have to wait for enemies to be in the open or you end up just wasting ammo. They managed to make both Bullet Time useless, and VATS went from being too good to totally worthless.

[Rynjin]

I;d suggest downloading the Bullet Time mod; VATS bullet time speed is actually slow enough (4%) it's just the lack of mobility that kills it.

[factotum]

It frustrates me how many of the perks are centered around Vats since I have no intention of ever using it. If I wanted to press a single button on the keyboard to pause time and instantly kill any threatening enemy with no skill I'd just use the console. Vats sucks all of the fun and challenge out of the game.

VATS doesn't do that in FO4--it slows time, doesn't stop it entirely, so you have to think on your feet even while using it. Also, if you're sniping then you can generally hit enemies at a considerably greater distance by just shooting them than you can with VATS--even with maxed Perception your percentage chance to hit a distant enemy in VATS will be very low.

[Anteros]

VATS doesn't do that in FO4--it slows time, doesn't stop it entirely, so you have to think on your feet even while using it. Also, if you're sniping then you can generally hit enemies at a considerably greater distance by just shooting them than you can with VATS--even with maxed Perception your percentage chance to hit a distant enemy in VATS will be very low.

It slows it enough to the point where the distinction is meaningless.

[Caelestion]

Well, if you're so amazing at the game, I'm surprised you're complaining about the lack of perks. I'd have thought you'd appreciate the challenge.

[Anteros]

Well, if you're so amazing at the game, I'm surprised you're complaining about the lack of perks. I'd have thought you'd appreciate the challenge.

I don't think you have to be very amazing to get through a Fallout game without Vats. They're not difficult shooters. Enemies don't even take cover or dodge. They all either stand still and let you shoot them, or run in a straight line right at you.

My complaint was more along the lines of "it sucks that half of the entire levelling system is completely worthless for my style of play" than "gosh this game is so hard without VATS".

[Mutazoia]

It slows it enough to the point where the distinction is meaningless.

No.

Try entering VATS, just as a raider throws a grenade. Now try cycling your targeting to that grenade and shoot it before it hits you. Did time slow down to pretty much nil, or did the grenade keep flying at you?

[Anteros]

No.

Try entering VATS, just as a raider throws a grenade. Now try cycling your targeting to that grenade and shoot it before it hits you. Did time slow down to pretty much nil, or did the grenade keep flying at you?

That's a pretty niche situation. You could just...not hit the button that freezes you in place right during the middle of a huge AoE explosion?

Honestly, if your response to seeing a grenade being thrown is to freeze and try to slowly scroll through everything on the screen instead of taking 2 steps to the side then you probably deserved to get hit.

Basically what I'm getting at is that I'm fine with games punishing you for making silly decisions. Vats still trivializes almost every combat encounter even with the minuscule nerf.

[Triaxx]

Yes, but with old VATS you had every chance of shooting a just thrown grenade and blowing up a group of enemies with their own weapon. It was awesome. Now? Between them not being an equipped item, and flying full speed even in VATS, that opportunity is gone.

As for getting frozen in place, fair enough but VATS defense is still a thing and will let you survive where it'd otherwise have been an instant kill.

Also, enemies have always taken cover if it was available, and they do it far more now.

[Anteros]

I'm not saying the changes to Vats weren't stupid, or that they don't suck. My point was about Vats making the game too easy.



Also, enemies have always taken cover if it was available, and they do it far more now.

I think we might be playing different games then, because they all pretty much just stand in the open and let you shoot them a solid 95% of the time.

[Brookshw]

I'm not saying the changes to Vats weren't stupid, or that they don't suck. My point was about Vats making the game too easy.
So don't use it :smallconfused: for a lot of people I agree it's unnecessary. However for people who don't play shooters but like rpgs, vats gives them an entry point to a game that they may have otherwise avoided. The systems fine, your just not the audience it's intended for.



I think we might be playing different games then, because they all pretty much just stand in the open and let you shoot them a solid 95% of the time. Eh, I'd say 30-40% of the time, but I think the AI changes w/ enemies (at least that's my suspicion). But your right, none of them have great AIs. You're probably better off if you stop thinking about this as a shooter (other than, I dunno, Doom maybe).

[Anteros]

So don't use it for a lot of people I agree it's unnecessary. However for people who don't play shooters but like rpgs, vats gives them an entry point to a game that they may have otherwise avoided. The systems fine, your just not the audience it's intended for.

I don't. My frustration was centered around the fact that most of the perks seem to revolve around the VATS system. I obviously don't mind that it exists or that other people enjoy using it. I just wish there were more alternative perks for people who don't like it. Especially now that the skill system is gone and perks are basically the only way to customize your character.

[Triaxx]

It depends on how you're playing I guess, but I see a lot of enemies dive for cover after I start shooting. Then again, that's a difference between pure sniper and close range loud and proud.

[LibraryOgre]

Not being terribly good at the clicky shooty parts, I greatly appreciated the 3/NV style VATS... while I can do a sniper shot ok, actual combat firearms appear beyond me except in the "See how much ammo you can send downrange." 3/NV VATS was more in line with Fallout 1/2 firearm use, and made it a lot more playable for me. My 3/NV characters these days either use shotguns or melee, I hate combat firearms so much.

[thethird]

I have been playing and enjoying fallout 4. But the more I play it the more I come to think that there were no memorable companions on fallout 3. I mean Moira, Harold, Harkness... were cool characters. But companions? Perhaps Butch with the memetic tunel snakes rule (was kind of bad in combat)? Or hawkes by virtue of being a super mutant (was really late in the game)?

[Brookshw]

I have been playing and enjoying fallout 4. But the more I play it the more I come to think that there were no memorable companions on fallout 3. I mean Moira, Harold, Harkness... were cool characters. But companions? Perhaps Butch with the memetic tunel snakes rule (was kind of bad in combat)? Or hawkes by virtue of being a super mutant (was really late in the game)?

No, you're correct. F3 companions were largely bland. But I'm not a fan of F3 as a Fallout game so don't put too much stock in my opinion :smallwink:

[Triaxx]

Fallout 3's companions were only slightly more interesting than the Raiders you were fighting.

Though to be fair to Bethesda, it was their first attempt. We didn't have any during Oblivion (except the Adoring Fan), nor Morrowind. The fact that they managed companions who could walk in a straight line is an epic feat for them.

@Mark Hall: It takes some significant concentration.

[LibraryOgre]

No, you're correct. F3 companions were largely bland. But I'm not a fan of F3 as a Fallout game so don't put too much stock in my opinion :smallwink:

I always took Charon, as he was supposed to be bland.

[Rynjin]

I always liked Jericho. Solid backstory and the ability to phase his hands through solid objects when smoking a cig were great.

[Anteros]

Fallout 3 had the best version of Dogmeat. He was basically indestructible, but his damage was low enough that he didn't play the game for you. The rest of the companions were forgettable.

Fallout NV had several interesting companions. I liked Boone a lot, even though he made the game easy.

None of the companions in 4 have really grabbed me yet. So far I've run across Piper, Codsworth, Dogmeat, Cait, Valentine, and Danse. They all seem pretty bland and mostly useless. Danse seems like the only one that's actually useful in combat, and Valentine is the only one whose story I find useful so far.

[tonberrian]

I really liked Danse when they did the reveal, but then hated how he reacted to the reveal. So for about one mission he was cool.

[Anteros]

I really liked Danse when they did the reveal, but then hated how he reacted to the reveal. So for about one mission he was cool.

I'm not that far along yet so maybe some of these stories will pick up.

[Rynjin]

Fallout 3 had the best version of Dogmeat. He was basically indestructible, but his damage was low enough that he didn't play the game for you. The rest of the companions were forgettable.

Worst part is, Dogmeat's (and Fawkes') immense health pools were a glitch.


None of the companions in 4 have really grabbed me yet. So far I've run across Piper, Codsworth, Dogmeat, Cait, Valentine, and Danse. They all seem pretty bland and mostly useless. Danse seems like the only one that's actually useful in combat, and Valentine is the only one whose story I find useful so far.

I really like Valentine and Curie. Piper is cool, Cait has a neat companion quest, Strong is boring and so is Codsworth and I wanna punch Macready for existing. Also Danse...exists.

[Anteros]

So what mods do people suggest? Something to fix the atrocious AI would be nice. It's pretty frustrating to watch my companion literally stare at me and ignore the enemy pumping bullets into them just because I happened to crouch during a firefight.

Also, why is the AI in this game so much worse than New Vegas? I know it's a Bethesda game and their AI has always been a joke, but it's egregiously bad in this game even for them.

Most of the top mods I'm seeing in the nexus are just cringey nudity mods or completely overpowered weapons and armor with very little actual content. Or settlement mods which I have very little interest in. At least not yet.

Edit: One more question. I remember people saying you were locked out of a lot of content until you progressed the main quest to a certain point. Without too many major spoilers, how far along is that?

[Triaxx]

About two hours in if you stick straight to the story line and manage not to get lost in Boston. Another hour if you're interested in working for the bad guys.

Mods... okay, so for the initial run, I'd only suggest a couple:

10mm SMG (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/22223) A weapon that was mysteriously missing from F4 restored now with blisteringly High-Res Textures if you want.

Achievements (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/12465) Allows achievements even if you're modded. Optional, and only if you care about those.

Companions Go Home (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/10029) Let's you send companions back to their original home bases, like Piper back to her sister at the paper, or alternately send any companion to Home Plate.

Darker Pipe Weapons (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/742) Replaces the shiny orange rust with something less eye injuring.

Everyone's Best Friend (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/13459) Let's you have Dogmeat plus a companion.

Unobtrusive XP Gain Sound (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/12244) Because otherwise it will drive you mad.

Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4598) Because it's a Bethesda game.

So that's the mods I'd suggest for the first play through, nothing over powered, nothing that might break the game. And nothing that will detract from the 'vanilla' feeling a first playthrough should have.

If you hang around long enough for the second playthrough:

Armorsmith Extended (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2228) Because Bethesda's idea of 'Balance' is restricting what can go where and only allowing certain stuff under armor. This can get overpowered, but gloriously so. Also it has a non-power armor jetpack, which will kill you a couple of times and that's awesome.

Assaultron Helmet with Glasses (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/12939) There's more than enough room as the mod evidences and the helmet looks awesome, so why wasn't this vanilla?

Vibrant and More Sharp DLC Robots (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/11298) Better colors on the Automatron robots. Totally visual, totally worth it.

Tidy Settlers (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17751) Adds a trash bin you can assign settlers to to clean up leaves, vines, grass and shrubs too small to workshop. Just makes things look nicer, immersively.

Salvage Beacons (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/18757/?) Make those lazy settlers work for you by sending them to haul back your multiple tons of junk.

Targeting HUD and Berry Mentats Fix (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/8671) Stops it from making everyone hostile, as well as sorts between friends and foes and finds dead bodies. Plus holstering your weapon makes it turn off.

Angry Artillery (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/9513) Because the basic artillery is wimpy.

Better Artillery Signal Flares (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/11203) Fixes a distance issue so the grenade doesn't require you be danger close when calling for artillery, I'm using the vanilla weight version but there are a couple options.

I'm certain others will have suggestions, but these are mine.

Also, Curie, Cait and Ada are the absolute best companions. (Except of course for Dogmeat.)

[Anteros]

I just found Kellogg, so I'm still pretty early in the game from a main quest perspective. I've also heard you can lock yourself out of quests if you advance too quickly, which is pretty irritating as well.


The Fallout 4 unofficial patch was the first one I ever downloaded, but it breaks my game for some reason. It can't be a conflict because it's the only patch I had, so I don't know why it happened, and I don't think any of the bugs are annoying enough to bother trying to figure it out.

[Brookshw]

The Fallout 4 unofficial patch was the first one I ever downloaded, but it breaks my game for some reason. It can't be a conflict because it's the only patch I had, so I don't know why it happened, and I don't think any of the bugs are annoying enough to bother trying to figure it out.

The game's amazingly stable, I've never felt the need.

Mods in no particular order and not duplicating above mentioned mods (disregarding settlement building mods). Sorry, too lazy to go get you links atm, but if you need help finding any let me know and I'll help.

Concealed Armors: because you want to look like you belong in a scavenged wasteland and not like some heavily armored....person.....but still want the heavily armored protection.

Combat Helmet Illumination: it has a freaking light on it, it should be working.

Eli's Armor Compendium: more things to wear/craft, look pretty good, make you more customizable. If you like that sort of thing.

If you want a more sci-fi like wasteland consider CROSS Jetpack (because Jetpacks are fun) and West Tek Tactical Optics.

Companion Infinite Ammo: you don't really want to worry about micromanaging your companions ammo, right?

Craftable Armor Size: just another way to mod your armor, seemed silly you can't normally change the light/medium/heavy set on it.

Atomic Radio and Tales from the Commonwealth: great mod to add more quests to the game and a radio station, all of which fit well with the world and flavor.

(other quest mods if you're interested: Fusion City Rising, Outcasts and Remnants, Prelude to Vault 273. There's also Maxwells World which is really buggy but is well done if you have the patients. I got annoyed with it though).

More Where That Came From: more songs on the radio.

Laser Bolt FX Fallout 4 edition: better laser effect, the normal beam style is kind of silly imo.

Lowered Weapons: Because you don't normally point your gun at everyone you meet, while you're talking to them,....do you?

In addition to the above mentioned 10mm SMG (get it) there's also:
Classic Super Sledge
.223 Pistol AKA That Gun
Fallout 3 - 10mm Pistol - N99 10m Pistol (because the F4 10mm looks stupid)
Cut Weapon Mods Restored
Extended weapon mods
Wasteland Melody's Service Rifle
M82a3 AMR

None of these are especially powerful and they're all fairly in touch with weapons which otherwise exist within the Fallout Universe.

If you want to talk settlement mods just say the word.

[Triaxx]

You will not be able to get Eli's Armors. All her mods are hidden due to Mod Drop stealing mods wholesale.

If you've faced Kellogg, all content is open except working for the villainous scum.

[Brookshw]

You will not be able to get Eli's Armors. All her mods are hidden due to Mod Drop stealing mods wholesale.


Huh? looks to still be available (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/22431?tab=files).

[Triaxx]

Ah, either she didn't do it, or unhid them after her point was made then. Fair enough.

I'm not actually bothered by the F4 10mm, but a gun I didn't add that I can't love enough is: Steyr AUG (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/26630) This one in particular I adore even though there's a couple versions. It's got a bunch of sight variations, several scopes, multiple suppressors that all do the same thing, but look unique, comes in 5.56mm and 10mm variations. Has a working weapon mounted Flashlight, as well as an optional laser sight. Very nice.

[Brookshw]

Ah, either she didn't do it, or unhid them after her point was made then. Fair enough.


Looks like she contributed to the anti moddrop mod, at least I think that looks like her (https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/1151/images/thumbnails/28773/28773-1514620833-1687548960.png)...avatar?

Edit: If you like the Steyr AUG you might like the ACR-W17 (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/26302), lots of customizable options similar to the AUG. It's not badly balanced inherently, but has plenty of options for abuse if you're so inclined, which may not actually be imbalanced late game after enemies become absurd bullet sponges.

[Balmas]

So what mods do people suggest?

Okay, so let's go through my handy dandy NMM list...

Mandatory mods:
Fallout 4 Unofficial Patch. (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4598/) Because stable or not, it's still a Bethesda game, and that means that there's bundles of random bugs and glitches all over the shop.
F4SE: (http://f4se.silverlock.org/) The Fallout 4 Script Extender adds a framework for more complex mods.
Armor and Weapon Keywords Community Resource: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/6091) Lots of mods hang off this framework. Even if you don't have mods that rely on it, it's probably a good idea.
Quality of Life mods:
DEF_UI (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/10654/). Tired of Bethesda's "You have to be able to read the UI from a couch twenty feet away" console-design UI? This mod allows you to resize, move around, or eliminate UI elements as you please. It also has support for stuff like showing what an item contains when you hover over it in the world.
Valdacil's Item Sorting (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/3877): This mod goes hand-in-hand with DEF_UI. As the name suggests, it's a sorting mod. Each item in the game gets a handy-dandy icon to represent what it is, what kind of ammo it uses, and so forth.
Immersive HUD: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/20830) Because if you're like me, you like to settle in to enjoy a game without the HUD getting in the way of your immersion. This makes it so that when the HUD isn't in use--IE, you're being shot at and need the info there--the HUD will fade away, and let you explore the Commonwealth in peace.
HUD Framework: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/20309) Support for more UI elements than exist in the base game. Compatible with DEF_UI.
Armorsmith Extended (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2228): This allows you to do much more with your armor, like wearing armor over things other than the few undergarments in vanilla, adding ballistic weave support for more armor, and so on. Needs AKWCR to work.
LombaxGuy's Legendary Modifications: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/14866) Over the course of your game, you'll find a lot of junk legendaries. Sometimes you'll find a really good effect, but on a weapon you'll never use, like an instigating cane or a Sentinel's piece of raider armor. This mod allows you to strip those effects from useless weapons/armor and transfer them onto things you'll actually use.
See-through Combat Scopes
Weapon Mods:
Because honestly, Fallout 4's weapons get boring. All of these weapons feature high-quality textures and models, a ton of weapon customization, are relatively well balanced, and most of them are integrated into the game's leveled lists in a way that makes sense.
[url=https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/22223]10mm SMG: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/9476) Seconding Triaxx's recommendation here. Adds in the 10mm SMG that's been in all the games so far except Fallout 4. Really, it's kind of weird that it wasn't included by default.
10mm Pistol Resize: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/19446) Because if you look at the size of the model for the 10mm pistol, you'll see that it's about the size of your thigh. It's massive. This makes it more pistol sized.
DKS-501 Sniper Rifle: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/15909) Adds in the sniper rifle from Fallout's 1, 2, and 3.
R91 Assault Rifle: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/7715) Adds in the assaultr rifle from Fallout 3. Super sexy weapon, just in terms of its looks.
Skibadaa's Weapon Pack: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/23064) Adds three types of minigun, a pistol, two assault rifles, a combat shotgun, and a friggin' .50 caliber anti-aircraft cannon into the leveled lists, based either on real-world weapons or on weapons from previous Fallouts.
Wasteland Melody's Chinese Assault Rifle: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/13283) Adds in the Chinese Assault Rifle from Fallout 3.
Wasteland Melody's Service Rifle: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/28547) Adds in the service rifle and assault carbine from New Vegas.
Wattz Laser Gun: (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/26386) Adds in a laser rifle modeled after the Wattz 2000 of Fallout 1 and 2, but goes a step beyond. The mods allow it to become a full-auto laser sprayer, a semi-auto carbine, or a full-on energy sniper. High quality work and some custom animations really push it over the top.
Random:
FPS Dynamic Shadows: Shadowboost (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/1822/). Because, again, it's a Bethesda game, and shadow rendering optimization is a pile of garbage.

I might think of more, but I've been composing this post for the past hour, so you'll have to wait for my brain to recharge.

[Triaxx]

Understanding that it is big, I find I really like the 10mm pistol in it's default size. Yes, it's big, but whether it's in your hands or being held in your power armored fist, it still looks like it belongs. Though I will admit that it feels like it should be shooting 12.7mm rounds.

[Anteros]

I appreciate all the suggestions guys. I'll be picking and choosing through them for a while.

Anyone recommend a color mod? I get tired of everything being shades of gray and brown.

[Triaxx]

I like Fallout 4 dark and dreary, so I have no recommendation.

New Vegas' Flamer is kind of hilariously overpowered. I mean, I knew it was super effective against Cazadore's, but it's also a perfect weapon for Vault 22.

[Anteros]

What about a mod that makes caravaners and other important NPCs run from conflicts instead of charging into certain doom as they attack entire outposts of Gunners and Super Mutants?

I've never used the Flamer in any Fallout game. I tend to avoid heavy weapons like the plague because I'm already always overburdened. Especially in 4 where you're always carrying a ton of junk to scrap later. Combine that with the low range and I just never saw a reason to even try it.


Unrelated, but I absolutely hate bullet sponge enemies. I cannot fathom why Bethesda thinks it's good game design for an enemy to require 43 sniper bullets to the head in order to die. Granted I'm in areas where the enemies have 20+ levels on me, but it's still immersion breaking.

I just ran across the little Raider city of destroyed boats and I actually really liked it. I could see a place like that actually existing, and the backstory for the Raiders there makes sense. I wish FO4 was more areas like this that feel like real places and less random encounters with mutants or raiders who have no reason to be where they are.

[Brookshw]

Unrelated, but I absolutely hate bullet sponge enemies. I cannot fathom why Bethesda thinks it's good game design for an enemy to require 43 sniper bullets to the head in order to die. Granted I'm in areas where the enemies have 20+ levels on me, but it's still immersion breaking. https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2393


I just ran across the little Raider city of destroyed boats and I actually really liked it. I could see a place like that actually existing, and the backstory for the Raiders there makes sense. I wish FO4 was more areas like this that feel like real places and less random encounters with mutants or raiders who have no reason to be where they are. Mixed bag, there are a number of areas that make sense, others it's just stuff to shoot at. Keep exploring, you'll find a ton of sensible stories (albeit a lot of it is background story you need to seek out or infer from the environment). We had a bit of running discussion on that topic a few pages back.

@Balmas, actually, going back to that discussion and your desire to know where guns are being manufactured from. Recently I was reminded that the Forged over in Saugus Ironworks are manufacturing guns, and that they're over at...forget the locations name, Dunwich Quarry(?), mining the materials to make the weapons, in the giant place that's great for smelting the raw materials to make the weapons. So if you're still seeking an in game explanation for "where do weapons come from" then we have that at least. (we need a children's version of "where do weapons come from", something to the effect 'when a mommy or daddy really wants to kill something, or just make some money, they.....').

[Triaxx]

Caravaneer's are essential, so I wouldn't worry about them. As for the others, Fallout 4's made liberal use of the Essential tag. Though go into the Automatron DLC and make those robots your Caravaneers and you'll never worry about them again.

I have learned to build characters to allow me free choice of weapon. Though the Flamer is the second lightest of the 'Heavy' weapons as New Vegas counts them. (The Incinerator is 3 pounds lighter.) It's pretty situational though, and so if you don't know you're going to want it, it's not worth carrying it. In 4 I've had Salvage Beacons from the moment I saw them on the Nexus, so being overloaded is no more an issue than walking slowly to
the nearest container.

[Anteros]

Caravaneer's are essential, so I wouldn't worry about them. As for the others, Fallout 4's made liberal use of the Essential tag. Though go into the Automatron DLC and make those robots your Caravaneers and you'll never worry about them again.

I have learned to build characters to allow me free choice of weapon. Though the Flamer is the second lightest of the 'Heavy' weapons as New Vegas counts them. (The Incinerator is 3 pounds lighter.) It's pretty situational though, and so if you don't know you're going to want it, it's not worth carrying it. In 4 I've had Salvage Beacons from the moment I saw them on the Nexus, so being overloaded is no more an issue than walking slowly to
the nearest container.

I was talking about the random ones who walk around the wasteland selling things. I haven't messed with any of the settlements enough to have my own caravaners. I really have no interest in playing Fallout: Sim City. Which is a shame, since it's apparently half the game.

[Triaxx]

Don't think of it as that. Think of it more as a build your own base with customizable staff.

Me, I'm not very creative with building that kind of thing. So instead I build one or two up as Fortresses of Solitude, places where I can safely retreat, and rearm. The fact that adhesive can be grown means I always want to have some settlements and have them connected. Then I can make stuff anywhere. Of course I also have Manufacturing Extended, which adds recyclers to disassemble junk automatically, as well as improving the Wasteland Workshop automation devices. (Drop straight back into the workshop.)

[Balmas]

Might I point you towards Sim Settlements? It just got an expansion pack that allows your settlers to build the towns themselves. Once you're allied to a settlement, you just appoint a local leader, and they set about building it themselves. You can contribute scrap to help, but they're self-sufficient.

You know, the way it should have been in the base game.

[factotum]

You know, the way it should have been in the base game.

So, the solution to settlements being an awful waste of time and fun is to...get them to run themselves? Wouldn't it have been easier to just *not include* them in the first place and use the time saved to add some meaningful content? That's how it should have been in the base game!

[Anteros]

That's how it should have been in the base game!

This seems to be a common complaint.


Might I point you towards Sim Settlements? It just got an expansion pack that allows your settlers to build the towns themselves. Once you're allied to a settlement, you just appoint a local leader, and they set about building it themselves. You can contribute scrap to help, but they're self-sufficient.

You know, the way it should have been in the base game.

This is probably what I need. It makes no sense that they're going to sit around for months with no food, water, or places to sleep just because I didn't build it for them and they're too stupid to do it themselves. I didn't even progress the minutemen plot far enough to become General at first, so it's especially egregious that they wait around on me. I'm not even in charge!

No wonder everything is still bombed out after hundreds of years in the Fallout universe. It's almost entirely populated by idiots who are too lazy to even find food, much less build something.

Other things: I definitely rushed the main quest too early. Killed Swan at level 7, and did a lot of the Brotherhood quests at level 10ish. Going back through the earlier areas now and I feel like an unkillable monster.

Why is Preston's voice actor so bad? Is he secretly a synth? If he is, he's a bad one. Because most of his lines sound like they're being read by a robot.

Why does it seem like most companions can't hit the broad side of a barn, but Danse is actually (somewhat) useful? Don't they use the same AI? I suppose it must just be weapon choice.

Constantly repairing power armor is annoying. It's not difficult, it's just tedious. I might go back to not using it, except I like the UI a lot better inside the armor than the normal UI.

Speaking of tedious, who thought the current survival mode was a good idea? No fast travel, and lower carry weights? There's no difficulty increases at all, just a bunch of tedious busywork and hours of walking through areas you've already cleared any time you want to go somewhere.

[factotum]

The thing about survival mode where you have to sleep in a proper bed to save the game is a good idea, I think--it forces you to travel to a safe location before saving your position, which seems like a good difficulty increase that works well. I think restricting fast travel is done for the same reason, to prevent you just fast travelling to your home base, sleeping, and then fast travelling back to where you were in order to start doing whatever you were doing.

[Triaxx]

If you have Danse, and you've completed Kellogg, join the Brotherhood and do the first mission. That gets access to Vertibirds, which let you fly round the map with moderate ease. And to compliment that you'll want: Vertibird Jump (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/20190)

Look, settlements, for all the mindless rage and hate they get, are the least part of the game. You need one, which will be provided by the faction of choice, in order to reach the end game. They're handy, with their inter connected workshop storages being accessible from all work stations in the area, so you don't have to walk around carrying 800 pounds of gear just to swap the barrels on your gun.

[Anteros]

The thing about survival mode where you have to sleep in a proper bed to save the game is a good idea, I think--it forces you to travel to a safe location before saving your position, which seems like a good difficulty increase that works well. I think restricting fast travel is done for the same reason, to prevent you just fast travelling to your home base, sleeping, and then fast travelling back to where you were in order to start doing whatever you were doing.

That could be achieved by just making you pass some time. "You aren't tired enough to sleep yet!" or something similar. The fast travel restriction is just too silly for me to enjoy the mode. It was fine at first when everywhere I was exploring was new anyway, but now that I've explored a bit and I need to frequently backtrack it's awful.

I know there are mods to remove just that one restriction, but honestly the rest of the mode isn't enjoyable enough to bother. You're constantly eating and drinking anyway to restore health, and I can emulate the save function by just not saving constantly. The only thing I think I'll miss is having less random legendaries.

I can't get sim settlements to work. I've got the original mod installed, as well as rise of the commonwealth, but where the youtube video says I should be able to build a city crafting console from the workshop there's simply nothing there. I've messed with it for about 2 hours with no luck, so I'm giving up for now.

[factotum]

Look, settlements, for all the mindless rage and hate they get, are the least part of the game. You need one, which will be provided by the faction of choice, in order to reach the end game.

The problem is that development resources are finite, so the time they spent developing settlements is time that couldn't be spent improving other aspects of the game. Yes, you don't really need to pay attention to them to progress, but you're still left wondering what got cut to make way for them.

[Caelestion]

This is Bethesda we're talking about - a mile wide and an inch deep.

[Brookshw]

.

I can't get sim settlements to work. I've got the original mod installed, as well as rise of the commonwealth, but where the youtube video says I should be able to build a city crafting console from the workshop there's simply nothing there. I've messed with it for about 2 hours with no luck, so I'm giving up for now.

You need to get the holotape first, there are several in the game with the earliest being in the museum of concord (top floor, farthest back room on the left as if you were looking at if from where you walked in). Once you get the tape you're off and running.

There's a mod for companion power armor so you don't need to worry about fixing it all the time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Random thought:

Female FO4 character with a mod to let both Danse and McCready be companions at the same time, all of them wearing power armor. Then have a certain song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75QC59i-dIY) playing in the background as they stomp through the snow Glowing Sea.

[Triaxx]

Honestly, while I understand the 'what could have been' sentiment, on the other side of the coin, I can't think of what could have taken it's place. I have a thought or two, but they cater specifically to the things I want to see, and they're things I know Bethesda is not good at.

What is however, turned out to be a, for me, enjoyable distraction from the tedium of shoot, kill, loot, repeat. And of course the endless, mindless complaining that occurs whenever the internet gets hold of anything.

[GloatingSwine]

So, the solution to settlements being an awful waste of time and fun is to...get them to run themselves? Wouldn't it have been easier to just *not include* them in the first place and use the time saved to add some meaningful content? That's how it should have been in the base game!

If settlements were autonomous but responded and developed in response to player action, why that would almost be like an expression of the consequence driven narrative of a Fallout game.

No, gotta chase that Minecraft money.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If settlements were autonomous but responded and developed in response to player action, why that would almost be like an expression of the consequence driven narrative of a Fallout game.

No, gotta chase that Minecraft money.

Actually, settlements are developed in response to player action. There's a pretty popular mod in F:NV which lets you build settlements, which have various resources based on location, and certain building/stuff require certain resources. For example, building a settlement up by Silver Mine as you make your way to Jacobstown can net you the Silver resource, which is needed for a few things. The gold mine outside of Searchlight similarly brings in Gold, you can put one by the Outpost that can bring in a ton of metal scrap. And you get your very own brahmin to act as a pack animal and follow you around.

[Caelestion]

No, gotta chase that Minecraft money.

It's almost as if you're saying that some people like things that you don't.

[Triaxx]

I always mean to get into Wasteland Settler, and keep getting distracted.

[Anteros]

So I gave Piper the cryo gun and a suit of power armor and suddenly she is the destroyer of worlds. It's actually very surprising how good that gun is. It's a good thing that ammo for it is so hard to come by or it would be incredibly broken.

[Spore]

I am always fascinated by the BoS and the Institute but just as I saw the title of this thread right here, I wonder if anyone (role)plays as 'The General' in here on their main save. Settlements are the (forced) center piece of Fallout 4 so why avoid it, or just use it in Sanctuary? If you can't beat them, join them.

What are your mods for enjoyable settlement building and defense/play? Which minutemen improvement mods are compatible? Is there a way to make T-45 worthwhile? Or do you prefer a mod to apply MM colors to X-01?

What does your general character look like?

[Triaxx]

I have, and it can be fun, but the thing I hate most is the Stupid Laser Musket. Every so often it'll flat out miss, even as you watch the beam pass straight through the enemy face. It's depressing.

T-45 is interesting. It doesn't really have any legendary set pieces, but the Piezo Chest piece can be really handy in certain situations. I personally prefer T-60 myself, but T-45 is still plenty tough when maxed out.

[NeoVid]

Don't think of it as that. Think of it more as a build your own base with customizable staff.

Settlements were what gave me most of the fun I had in my (stupidly huge) amount of time played. What I found to be an insulting waste of time was the attempt at a main plot...



Why does it seem like most companions can't hit the broad side of a barn, but Danse is actually (somewhat) useful? Don't they use the same AI? I suppose it must just be weapon choice.


Weapon type makes a huge difference, since there's nothing resembling weapon balance in FO4. Sadly, they only get unlimited ammo for their default gun, so giving them something better means micromanagement unless you mod. The companions also vary massively in effectiveness for other reasons. For instance, Curie, one of the most interesting characters in the game, has horrible base stats (straight 4s in SPECIAL, where the other companions usually have a couple of stats of 12 or higher), and when she gets her upgrade, she doesn't get new AI to go with it, leaving her buggy as hell.

The companions aren't a total afterthought like in FO3, though, so they have pretty good quest chains. I'm told Danse gets the best one, but his missions bugged out for me and became impossible to progress, so I haven't seen for myself...

Also, I'm certain that in a better written Fallout, there would have been a storyline option to oust Elder Maxson and place Danse in charge of the BoS division in the commonwealth.

Though they probably wouldn't have titled it Danse Revolution, despite that clearly being the right name.

[Triaxx]

You've been lied to. Nick has the best of all possible questlines, plus a DLC. Cait's is also both epic and heartwarming.

[factotum]

You've been lied to. Nick has the best of all possible questlines, plus a DLC. Cait's is also both epic and heartwarming.

Interesting. I've never actually had Cait as a companion because she seems to be one of the ones that would absolutely hate the way I play the game, so she'd never get friendly enough to do her personal quest anyway. If I ever reinstall FO4 I might have to change that.

[Triaxx]

Cait likes you killing people. Unless you're a pacifist, Cait will love you.

[unseenmage]

Interesting. I've never actually had Cait as a companion because she seems to be one of the ones that would absolutely hate the way I play the game, so she'd never get friendly enough to do her personal quest anyway. If I ever reinstall FO4 I might have to change that.

They all give up their personal quest after a long enough duration anyway. Just walking across the Commonwealth enough with them accompanying you is enough, as long as you keep at it for long enough.

[Spore]

Is it weird that I liked Nick's side quest but ironically the delivery felt too....robotic to me? His mind is still human, his emotions real. But - at least in the German voice acting - he doesn't sound emotionally invested. And contrary to popular belief, German voices have a range greater than incredible anger.

[Triaxx]

Which I think is amusing because that stereotypically angry German voice would fit the quest well.

[Anteros]

So I was messing around with the noclip function earlier and I found a random legendary deathclaw in a completely sealed cavern underground. He dropped a randomly generated legendary sniper rifle too, but I didn't loot it because I felt like it was a cheaty way to get one. I wonder how much other random stuff is in the game like this that you'd never see normally.

Or maybe I accidentally subverted a part of a quest and he'd have popped up later after something cleared that part of ground out.

[Brookshw]

So I was messing around with the noclip function earlier and I found a random legendary deathclaw in a completely sealed cavern underground. He dropped a randomly generated legendary sniper rifle too, but I didn't loot it because I felt like it was a cheaty way to get one. I wonder how much other random stuff is in the game like this that you'd never see normally.

Or maybe I accidentally subverted a part of a quest and he'd have popped up later after something cleared that part of ground out.

Where were you?

[Anteros]

Vault 88. I looked it up on Google, and it does look like he's supposed to be there, but the cavern I found him in wasn't in an area you can walk to, and none of the walls were diggable from the workshop...at least not from the inside. Maybe I was supposed to dig my way in there from the outside using the workshop?

[Mando Knight]

Vault 88. I looked it up on Google, and it does look like he's supposed to be there, but the cavern I found him in wasn't in an area you can walk to, and none of the walls were diggable from the workshop...at least not from the inside. Maybe I was supposed to dig my way in there from the outside using the workshop?

Did you restore function to the auxiliary workbenches? There are numerous side tunnels in 88 that you can only access by extending the workshop zones.

[Anteros]

Did you restore function to the auxiliary workbenches? There are numerous side tunnels in 88 that you can only access by extending the workshop zones.

Yeah. I loaded up an older save and figured it out. I was supposed to dig through that wall. The confusion was just because I was coming at it from the wrong direction due to having noclip on since I was bored of the area, thought everything was already cleared, and don't care about building things at all in this game.

I decided to leave and come back later when I'm a higher level so the deathclaw will be a stronger version. Hopefully he's not locked into my current level.

[Brookshw]

Is it just me, or does the difficulty of survival mode really start to drop off around level 40?

[Anteros]

Is it just me, or does the difficulty of survival mode really start to drop off around level 40?

I really only thought it was hard for about 10-15 levels. Once you stumble across a decent gun and some power armor the difficulty drops from hard to tedious. Power armor basically eliminates the fear of randomly getting killed by an enemy with no chance to respond. Food, water, and beds were basically never an issue anyway so the only real difference is that you have to walk everywhere bored out of your mind because you've already cleared the area and you can't afford unlimited vertibird grenades yet.

Well...also the fact that you can't use the console to fix bugs. So there's a random small chance that any given quest may break at any time.

[Triaxx]

Or getting stuck in or two places where only a Jetpack or TCL can free you. Amusingly while the console is disabled, the mod that gives you a 'Console' for Xbox, works just fine.

I stopped being challenged around level 5, but then I'd played enough NV Hardcore mode to have no challenge with easy mode Survival. Of course I still get killed by random enemies. (Legendary Red Widow Bloodbug)

[Anteros]

Or getting stuck in or two places where only a Jetpack or TCL can free you. Amusingly while the console is disabled, the mod that gives you a 'Console' for Xbox, works just fine.

I stopped being challenged around level 5, but then I'd played enough NV Hardcore mode to have no challenge with easy mode Survival. Of course I still get killed by random enemies. (Legendary Red Widow Bloodbug)

Well in that case I stopped being challenged at level 0. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Jackal]

Well in that case I stopped being challenged at level 0. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I'd argue that survival isn't about challenge, it's about immersion (for better or worse). You've got to pay attention to the details, and you can't skip intervening distances. Yes, that does necessarily mean a fair amount of yak shaving, if you're intent on playing survival the same way you'd play normal, ie: lug back every ounce of movable scrap back to a base. But you don't have to do that. You can travel lean, leave most stuff behind, and only use vertibirds when you really have a purpose for them.

[Anteros]

Well, I'd argue that survival isn't about challenge, it's about immersion (for better or worse). You've got to pay attention to the details, and you can't skip intervening distances. Yes, that does necessarily mean a fair amount of yak shaving, if you're intent on playing survival the same way you'd play normal, ie: lug back every ounce of movable scrap back to a base. But you don't have to do that. You can travel lean, leave most stuff behind, and only use vertibirds when you really have a purpose for them.

The problem is that there was never a single moment that I felt like I was struggling to survive. For a mode called "survival" they missed the mark by a large margin. Maybe if food and water were a LOT rarer it might be an interesting mode. As it stands now, I was basically always fully fed and hydrated just from things I would eat and drink to heal. There's basically no increased difficulty or danger at all outside of the rare enemy that one shots you. There's beds in every dungeon, so saving isn't an issue either. I probably lost more play time to bugs and crashes than actual deaths in the mode. The entire thing is just a bunch of busywork with no actual extra difficulty. I actually think the extra gear you end up with from the extra legendaries probably makes the overall game easier than just playing on hard.

[Triaxx]

Everyone keeps telling me about all these Legendary Enemies and yet, they're very, very rare for me. Must be influenced by Character luck.

[The_Jackal]

The problem is that there was never a single moment that I felt like I was struggling to survive. For a mode called "survival" they missed the mark by a large margin. Maybe if food and water were a LOT rarer it might be an interesting mode. As it stands now, I was basically always fully fed and hydrated just from things I would eat and drink to heal. There's basically no increased difficulty or danger at all outside of the rare enemy that one shots you. There's beds in every dungeon, so saving isn't an issue either. I probably lost more play time to bugs and crashes than actual deaths in the mode. The entire thing is just a bunch of busywork with no actual extra difficulty. I actually think the extra gear you end up with from the extra legendaries probably makes the overall game easier than just playing on hard.

Yes, they could have just as easily called it 'tedium' mode Much of the trouble arises from this: How do you actually make Fallout difficult in a way that's interesting or challenging? I mean, making the enemies more bullet sponge isn't that exciting, certainly not interesting, and making your own character more fragile really just emphasizes stealth more heavily, plus it makes you lean on saving the game more frequently.

In order to really make Fallout more difficult, you'd have to make the AI smarter, and that's far from simple.

I haven't finished my survival run, but my experience more or less mirrors yours: The so-called difficulty isn't difficult, rather it's more 'lots of new details to fuss about'. That said, I do prefer survival to the base game. In survival, I'm actually a little excited I find a radstag, because I know I'll be able to increase my stockpile of carry-weight rations. I actually have a reason to use the vertibirds, instead of just taking the one ride from Danse and then teleporting everywhere. I actually have a reason to hide from a deathclaw or robot patrol, rather than just mashing quicksave and them opening fire. So, as flawed as it is, I'd say that survival is more fun than 'hard', at least for me.

[Triaxx]

While it's technically cheating, the Craftable Vertibird Grenades mod made my life vastly less frustrating.

[Anteros]

Everyone keeps telling me about all these Legendary Enemies and yet, they're very, very rare for me. Must be influenced by Character luck.

Really? I usually see at least one per dungeon area. Usually several. I do tend to play characters with high luck though (I modded non vats crits back in since I don't use vats).

[Triaxx]

I'm lucky to see one per five hours of game play, with just enough Luck for Scrounger.

[Anteros]

I'm lucky to see one per five hours of game play, with just enough Luck for Scrounger.

Strange. I definitely see them much more often than that. Supposedly the only thing that changes the spawn rate is the difficulty setting. Maybe you're just incredibly unlucky?

[Triaxx]

Must be. Though for me going from normal to Survival actually dropped the spawn rate rather heavily. Which to be honest is kind of annoying.

[Anteros]

Must be. Though for me going from normal to Survival actually dropped the spawn rate rather heavily. Which to be honest is kind of annoying.

From what I understand you're actually supposed to get 3 times as many on survival. Who knows though. Maybe you just don't see as many because it takes so long to get anywhere. :smallbiggrin:

[Triaxx]

Maybe, but I always walk everywhere. Oh great, it's dragons all over again.

[Jonzac]

The problem is that there was never a single moment that I felt like I was struggling to survive. For a mode called "survival" they missed the mark by a large margin. Maybe if food and water were a LOT rarer it might be an interesting mode. As it stands now, I was basically always fully fed and hydrated just from things I would eat and drink to heal. There's basically no increased difficulty or danger at all outside of the rare enemy that one shots you. There's beds in every dungeon, so saving isn't an issue either. I probably lost more play time to bugs and crashes than actual deaths in the mode. The entire thing is just a bunch of busywork with no actual extra difficulty. I actually think the extra gear you end up with from the extra legendaries probably makes the overall game easier than just playing on hard.

If you want HARD SURVIVIAL and you can used mods, try FROST. Set in the time right after the bombs fall its EXTREMELY hard. Ghouls are a nightmare, bullets scarce and rads all over the place.

you can watch "many a true nerd" youtuber to get a feel for the mod.

[The_Jackal]

Must be. Though for me going from normal to Survival actually dropped the spawn rate rather heavily. Which to be honest is kind of annoying.

Are you modded at all? I get lots of legendary items. Of course, most of the affixes are hot garbage, and 'special case' gear is not feasible in survival. I can't afford to carry around a golf-bag of guns (one for robots, one for bugs, etc.).

[Triaxx]

Yes, modded, but not anything that should have affected drop rates, or spawn rates.

I spent most of the game (I LP'd it.) running around with a combat rifle modded to have a flamer attached, but other than that, it was all vanilla weapons until nearly the end.

That said, I usually stick with a selection of weapons and only bring special case gear if I know I'm going to be facing a certain thing. The fact that the character was completely built around power armor meant I could bring some heavier gear. (Of course I also halved the weight of missiles so the launcher wasn't totally useless anymore.)

[Brookshw]

So I watched some let's play Frost and it's looking pretty fun (though some let's players really suck at games).

Anyone who's tried it have experiences w/ it crashing or conflicting w/ other mods? I really don't want to have to remove a lot of mods to get it to work.

[Jonzac]

I downloaded and installed it with NMM and started a separate profile for it. Loaded just Frost and alternate starts and it worked fine.

No idea about other mods, but I'd guess that many wont work due to the change in items from their vanilla F4 names and uses to the new ones in Frost.

No confirmed information on that though.

[Brookshw]

I downloaded and installed it with NMM and started a separate profile for it. Loaded just Frost and alternate starts and it worked fine.


Hmmmm, never tried using different profiles on games, sounds like an easy solution.

[Brookshw]

Started Frost, shippedwreck path. Probably died a dozen times so far and am only level 2. Love it, this is exactly the game I want to play (though w/o the story I can't say it's really Fallout). Amazing job by the team.

[Triaxx]

There's some story, just not the silly default one.

[Spore]

Frost? Alternate Start? I am not accidentally in the Skyrim thread, am I? :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Frost? Alternate Start? I am not accidentally in the Skyrim thread, am I? :smalltongue:

FROST (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/18898) is a mod for Fallout 4 that (like New Vegas's DUST) is a total conversion of the game into a hardcore survival horrible death simulator. It has three choices for your starting location, since all of the vanilla quests have been removed (including the original start of the game).

[Brookshw]

FROST (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/18898) is a mod for Fallout 4 that (like New Vegas's DUST) is a total conversion of the game into a hardcore survival horrible death simulator. It has three choices for your starting location, since all of the vanilla quests have been removed (including the original start of the game).

I think the only criticism I have is that losing bottles constantly whenever you drink water or boil it is absurd and you run out of them so dang quickly. I may install a mod for that (and maybe snapable junk fences, forgot how annoying that was).

[The_Jackal]

I think the only criticism I have is that losing bottles constantly whenever you drink water or boil it is absurd and you run out of them so dang quickly. I may install a mod for that (and maybe snapable junk fences, forgot how annoying that was).

Yeah, that one is dumb. You can get a bottle from a drink of nuka-cola, but if you drink water, it apparently involves eating the bottle.

[Anteros]

FROST (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/18898) is a mod for Fallout 4 that (like New Vegas's DUST) is a total conversion of the game into a hardcore survival horrible death simulator. It has three choices for your starting location, since all of the vanilla quests have been removed (including the original start of the game).

So wait...what do you do if there's no quests? It's just a survival mode? Doesn't that get boring quickly?

[Brookshw]

Yeah, that one is dumb. You can get a bottle from a drink of nuka-cola, but if you drink water, it apparently involves eating the bottle.

Not to mention the several bottles of dirty water than disappear once you boil the water. I just throw out two bottles everytime? Eh?


So wait...what do you do if there's no quests? It's just a survival mode? Doesn't that get boring quickly?

Eh, it's a different type of challenge. Dying is REAL easy and the worlds changed from vanilla, saying resources are sparse is a bit of an understatement. Make up your own quests if you like.

[Triaxx]

Many a true nerd has been playing it on YouTube if you want a glimpse.

[Anteros]

Make up your own quests if you like.

Look, if I had the imagination to do things like that I wouldn't be playing in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[Brookshw]

Look, if I had the imagination to do things like that I wouldn't be playing in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

Eh, it's easy enough. I've decided my current character was a fisherman out of Gloucester, living in Salem. When the bombs fell his ship was blown out to sea a'la tidal waves, after all electronics got knocked out. After two years he finally made it back to the commonwealth but shipwrecked on Spectacle Island (one of the Frost starts). Now he's trying to make it home to Salem to find his wife and daughter, but it's going to be a long trip. If (when) they're not there, then it's off to Bar Harbor where she had family to see if she's there. I skipped a lot of details I made up in my head (about having to kill his first mate). I'll give myself extra quests along the way as I decide to check multiple places and look for records of where they may have gotten (admittedly it's all for naught).

[Driderman]

Eh, it's easy enough. I've decided my current character was a fisherman out of Gloucester, living in Salem. When the bombs fell his ship was blown out to sea a'la tidal waves, after all electronics got knocked out. After two years he finally made it back to the commonwealth but shipwrecked on Spectacle Island (one of the Frost starts). Now he's trying to make it home to Salem to find his wife and daughter, but it's going to be a long trip. If (when) they're not there, then it's off to Bar Harbor where she had family to see if she's there. I skipped a lot of details I made up in my head (about having to kill his first mate). I'll give myself extra quests along the way as I decide to check multiple places and look for records of where they may have gotten (admittedly it's all for naught).

Sounds a bit like reading The Road. You know it's not going to end well but you keep on all the same...

[Triaxx]

The same reason I'm on my 50th New Vegas Character and 40th Skyrim one. (That and mods break the game before I finish, so I start over.)

[Brookshw]

Sounds a bit like reading The Road. You know it's not going to end well but you keep on all the same...

Pretty much, nope a happy period in the Fallout universe. I figure the best anyone can hope for is something like the Survivalist in Honest Hearts.

Which brings us to another topic of conversation, what is the range of reasonable expectations in the Fallout-verse. So no " hold out for a decade and the earth will be peachy" real world science, we're playing by lore/pulp rules!

[Mutazoia]

Which brings us to another topic of conversation, what is the range of reasonable expectations in the Fallout-verse. So no " hold out for a decade and the earth will be peachy" real world science, we're playing by lore/pulp rules!

Well, if we are going by lore/pulp rules, then the world is never going to be fine. One bomb crater is still super radio active after 400 years, the entire ocean is radio active, which means all the rain is going to be radio active.... it's a wonder anything still lives in the FO universe.

[Brookshw]

Well, if we are going by lore/pulp rules, then the world is never going to be fine. One bomb crater is still super radio active after 400 years, the entire ocean is radio active, which means all the rain is going to be radio active.... it's a wonder anything still lives in the FO universe.

How about for individuals though, constrained by the world's perpetual post-apoc state. We see a spectrum of survivor stories across the games for the immediate aftermath of the bombs dropping from cannibalism, ghoulification, slavery, maybe tribalism. Not many people got a "good" ending but there were some.

So with that clarification, what are reasonable expectations for survivors in the immediate aftermath of the bombs? What is a "good" ending at that time and that still coincides with the lore?

[Anteros]

Go into a vault and hope it's one of the not crazy ones? I guess a lot of people must have survived in regular shelters too. All those raiders had to come from somewhere.

[The_Jackal]

Well, if we are going by lore/pulp rules, then the world is never going to be fine. One bomb crater is still super radio active after 400 years, the entire ocean is radio active, which means all the rain is going to be radio active.... it's a wonder anything still lives in the FO universe.

Well, that really depends on the efficiency of the reaction, and how much of the radioactive material (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-lived_fission_product) from the war was from the uncontrolled reaction of civil reactors (like those in cars and households). It's entirely possible that a massive amount of the radiation in the environment is from those sources, rather than the bombs themselves. But let's be honest for a moment: Fallout is not a hard-science setting. It's a post-apocalyptic fantasy with a high degree of social and political satire. The if the six-foot-tall horseshoe crabs and immortal zombies didn't give that away, the little-green men and robots with personality disorders should do the trick.

[Balmas]

So, here's a quick question for all y'all: How many synths do you think the Institute has?

If you look at the Robotics lab in the Institute, you'll see that they're capable of turning out a Gen3 synth roughly once every 25 minutes, and that this process continues 24-7. That means that, even if we assume that they have only one robotics lab producing synths, they can produce 57.6 Gen3 Synths per day.

We don't know how long they've been pumping out synths at this rate, but I'd suggest a number of clues that might give us some clues. We know that the key for making Gen3 synths was Shaun's arrival at the institute in 2227, 60 years ago as of the time of Fallout 4. They were able to make and field-test human-like synths since 2229, since that's when the Broken Mask incident occurred. For 58 years, they've had that capacity. We know they've had coursers for at least 10 years, since Harkness had escaped and made his way to Rivet City by 2077, and Zimmer's position as director of the SRB says that runaway Gen3s were enough of a problem for them to have an entire bureau dedicated to their reclamation. I would suggest, then, that they've had at least ten years of producing at that rate.

Ten years, at the very least. 3650 days, not counting leap years, at a rate of 57.6 synths per day, is an army 0f 210,240 synths. And that's with the assumption that they haven't produced any synths for the 48 years previous to that. Even if we were to say that they've only been producing synths at that rate for the past year, that would still be at least 21K synths. And this is only the Gen3 synths, not Gen1 or Gen2.

I'll just remind you that the current population of the Commonwealth is something like 500 named NPCs, plus however many settlers join your settlements (which, at a maximum of 21 per, means you could add up to 800ish to this number. Even if we assume there are 10 raiders/gunners/mutants for every person who's not one of the above, that would mean that the commonwealth has a population of around 14.5K people. Which means that the Institute would have the power to create an army that is 44-1449% larger than every other group in the Commonwealth combined.

In conclusion, the only reason the Institute isn't the least competent group in the Commonwealth is because the Railroad exists.

[Brookshw]

snip

Nicely researched. I'd suggest there may be material issues but with teleportation I can't see that being a big problem (begging the question when they developed that). They sure could have flooded most of the commonwealth.

I suspect they have to have a fall back facility somewhere, synths continue to pop up on missions after you destroy the institute, both on scavenging runs or assaulting places, so baring standing orders they're still fulfilling someone has to be calling the shots and they presumably need somewhere to be returning their salvaged tech to. Someone has to be left still, and possibly still producing more....

[Triaxx]

House was a graduate, so they probably have a bunker full of them, waiting for an army of historically inaccurate enemies to camp out on top.

[Anteros]

You're forgetting the seemingly infinite numbers of raiders or super mutants. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that the NPCs of these cities are meant to be simply representative and a lot more people actually live there than what we see.

[factotum]

Nicely researched. I'd suggest there may be material issues but with teleportation I can't see that being a big problem (begging the question when they developed that).

I don't see why it *wouldn't* be a problem? They still have to obtain and process the materials regardless of how easy it is to transport them back to home base. They can't be using scavenged materials because we know that every building in Boston still has all the stuff in it that it did when the bombs dropped.

Also, Gen-3 synths presumably require a lot of organic material to make--where does the Institute get that from? It might be able to build a synth in 25 minutes when all materials are ready and waiting, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can build them at that rate ad infinitum.

[The_Jackal]

I don't see why it *wouldn't* be a problem? They still have to obtain and process the materials regardless of how easy it is to transport them back to home base. They can't be using scavenged materials because we know that every building in Boston still has all the stuff in it that it did when the bombs dropped.

Also, Gen-3 synths presumably require a lot of organic material to make--where does the Institute get that from? It might be able to build a synth in 25 minutes when all materials are ready and waiting, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can build them at that rate ad infinitum.

99% of the human body is composed of six elements: Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Calcium, and Phosphorus, all of which are quite abundant. It also has trace amounts of potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, an magnesium (less than 10 grams in a normal human). Other elements are present, but in even more miniscule quantities.

[Anteros]

99% of the human body is composed of six elements: Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Calcium, and Phosphorus, all of which are quite abundant. It also has trace amounts of potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, an magnesium (less than 10 grams in a normal human). Other elements are present, but in even more miniscule quantities.

There's quite a leap between "we can make robots who look and act human" and "we can forge people whole from their component elements". If the latter were true synths wouldn't need to have mechanical parts at all.

[Triaxx]

Why do you think they're kidnapping people if not to dissolve them for resources?

[Brookshw]

I don't see why it *wouldn't* be a problem? They still have to obtain and process the materials regardless of how easy it is to transport them back to home base. They can't be using scavenged materials because we know that every building in Boston still has all the stuff in it that it did when the bombs dropped.


We know they have all the stuff in them that wasn't previously taken, notice all those empty boxes everywhere? :smallwink:

[The_Jackal]

There's quite a leap between "we can make robots who look and act human" and "we can forge people whole from their component elements". If the latter were true synths wouldn't need to have mechanical parts at all.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that a Gen3 synth has a great variety of non-biological parts. Based on what you see in the assembly procedure, the only bits that aren't biological are those which supply features unavailable to evolution, such as the radio tracker and neural overrides. Basically what you're looking at is a human with a couple of medical devices implanted. I have no trouble believing that with proper genetics, each Gen3 synth could have the physical talents of a world-class athlete, and considering that the Sole Survivor is capable of being just as tough, there's nothing to suggest an alternate conclusion.

[Triaxx]

Which does make DiMA's question about whether or not you're a synth more pointed.

[Brookshw]

Which does make DiMA's question about whether or not you're a synth more pointed.

Except synths have deactivation codes, and they don't use one on you while you brutally slaughter the institute. So either you're a synth w/o a deactivation code (which isn't supported by the evidence we have of deactivation codes) or you have one but everyone in the institute would rather die than use it (which doesn't fit with some of their treatment and dislike of the main character), and the dialogue relating to getting installed as director becomes very out of place. Possibly you could have been made in secret by the director with all knowledge of you hidden from the institute, but I fail to understand how his ending dialogue with you would make any sense.

[The_Jackal]

Except synths have deactivation codes, and they don't use one on you while you brutally slaughter the institute. So either you're a synth w/o a deactivation code (which isn't supported by the evidence we have of deactivation codes) or you have one but everyone in the institute would rather die than use it (which doesn't fit with some of their treatment and dislike of the main character), and the dialogue relating to getting installed as director becomes very out of place. Possibly you could have been made in secret by the director with all knowledge of you hidden from the institute, but I fail to understand how his ending dialogue with you would make any sense.

Yeah, the Sole Survivor as Synth narrative is way too implausible and forced. Not that the base storyline is remotely cogent to begin with, but there's too much in the Synth thesis that defies plausibility. I took DiMA's remarks that "you might be a synth" as more philosophical in nature, not an actual suggestion which was meant to be taken seriously as an assertion of fact.

[DigoDragon]

3650 days, not counting leap years, at a rate of 57.6 synths per day, is an army 0f 210,240 synths.

Assuming the machine cranking the synths out don't need downtime.



Nicely researched. I'd suggest there may be material issues but with teleportation I can't see that being a big problem (begging the question when they developed that).

Teleportation tech is weird. If you have that then you will soon have (if not already) the ability to disassemble matter like a disintegration ray, and have the ability to create matter from energy like a replicator. Along with their fast pace synth building, I'm surprised the Institute can lose.

[The_Jackal]

Assuming the machine cranking the synths out don't need downtime.

Teleportation tech is weird. If you have that then you will soon have (if not already) the ability to disassemble matter like a disintegration ray, and have the ability to create matter from energy like a replicator. Along with their fast pace synth building, I'm surprised the Institute can lose.

Even considering a lower rate of production (say 50% of that figure, still puts a force a quarter the size of the United States Army's front-line troops in the suburbs of Boston. That would be an absolutely immense occupation force, even for modern-day Boston. Greater Boston has under 5 million people. That's 1 synth for every 50 persons. To put that into perspective, post-war Japan was occupied to a level of 200 to 1. Post-war Germany had a ratio of 80 to 1. Now it's quite reasonable to say that no matter what the condition of the commonwealth might be, it's got to be less than the population of Greater Boston today. This really underscores Balmas' original point: Given the capacity of the Institute to produce manpower, it's really inane as to why they simply can't produce enough Synths to take active control of the surface, not just in the Commonwealth, but likely the entire continent of North America. That 'one per 25 minutes' facility is just one relatively small room. Conduct synth production at industrial scale, and they could easily conquer the surface and re-populate the continent with genetically healthy, docile and obedient humans. Instead, they're doing some kind of Dystopian Doctor Strangelove freak lair.

[NeoVid]

I want to suggest that the MST3K Mantra be renamed the Bethesda Setting Mantra.

[Triaxx]

Possible only The Director knew the kill code, and when he died...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a HUGE difference between having the elements in hand and actually weaving the material into a primordeal soup used in construction of the synths. The only substance we currently know about that has the adaptability that soup they spray on are stem cells, and while I'm sure that Fallout's pre-war Murika would have far fewer qualms about that sort of research than real life does, generating that much volume of stem cells is going to be... very difficult at the least.

I'd say supply is the chokepoint rather than production capability. Also keep in mind that a Synth needs to eat, sleep, breathe, eliminate... basically all the same needs as people. So there's also the *logistical* issue of needing to supply what amounts to an army on very low absolute numbers of resources. The institute isn't exactly brimming over with hydroponics, after all. I think it would be just a *little* difficult for them to feed a hundred thousand plus soldiers, wouldn't you?

Honestly, I don't expect them to have more than around ten thousand or so. More than that, and their ability to house and feed them becomes questionable.

Which is, of course, why the Railroad are a bunch of misguided morons. Every synth they steal and 'reprogram' is one fewer mouth the Institute has to feed but can STILL recall at any time with a simple code transmitted. In effect, the Railroad is doing a far better job of being the Institute's distribution hub than their official one. AND they don't even get paid for it.