Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[Kurald Galain]

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, Chrismith, and RMS Oceanic. I will update these posts as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS and the other characters.

The aim of this thread is that we give D&D statistics for the characters in the comic based on the events and statements made in the comic, plus statements by The Giant in the forum and his books. For this purpose, we assume that the comic strictly follows the 3.5E D&D rules. We are aware that The Giant has stated that he doesn't always follow the rules, because his goal is to write a story and not to write session reports from a D&D campaign. Nevertheless, in this thread we assume the rules are being followed anyway, and see what stats, feats, and skills could explain what happens. Essentially, that means we're taking the rules side of the comic more seriously than its author does; if you like, you can assume a little footnote on every factoid of this thread that says "* or The Giant used a houserule". Why? Well, because it's Geekery. If Star Trek fans can do it, then so can we :smallwink:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Does The Giant check this thread?
Yes, but only really for spell lists. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411301-Interview-Questions-For-Rich/page4&p=19164058#post19164058)

Q: Which source books are used in the comic?

Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)
Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
Complete Warrior (hexblade)
Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)
Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)
Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)
Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)


Q: In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?


Level
:roy:
:belkar:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png
:elan:
:haley:
:vaarsuvius:


9
12
12
12
12
12
12


10
124
125
124
124
124
124


11
???
???
201
???
???
186


12
251
249
???
382
477
220


13
???, 665
???
556
392
511
397


14
485, 862
???
859
647
???
627


15
-
860
-
860
648
716


16
-
-
-
-
990
935



Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
(1) All named members of the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Order of the Scribble, and the Vector Legion.
(2) Any frequently occurring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.
This means that Daigo and Bandana would be next in line, but we don't have a lot of material on either character.

Q: Which material is covered by this thread?
All comics on the web and in print (including SSDT, Gygax magazine, and the Kickstarter bonus stories), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or the fundraiser.
Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics.

Q: I've heard there was a fight over some topic years ago, and now we're not allowed to discuss it any more. Is that the case?
No; this thread does not have a banned topic list (of course, the forum as a whole has one; please see the board rules for details). Also see the thread rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229756) by Mark Hall.

Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

Q: If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and his victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?
Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

Q: If somebody doesn't say the name of a spell while casting it, does that mean he has the Silent Spell feat?
Not necessarily. We know that Vaarsuvius doesn't have that feat, and yet V still occasionally casts spells while talking about something else.

Q: What does "Core" mean?
The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM). This is an official term defined by WOTC, who put the word "Core" in big letters on the cover of these three books. No other books are Core, and there is no such thing as "partially Core", "almost Core", or "semi-Core" - every book is either Core or non-Core. Note that both the OOTS comic and this thread contain numerous non-Core elements.

Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

Q: A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
No. As seen in a thousand forum threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Sudden Maximize, the feat Improved Spell Capacity, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

Q: What magic item makes Xykon immune to fire damage in comic 653?
We don't know for sure; there are multiple items within RAW that make their user immune to fire, available from level 14. Note that Xykon doesn't specify whether it's an amulet, ring, belt, or other kind of item.

[Kurald Galain]

:roy: Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), Human male Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) 14 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19392374&postcount=533)).
Str 29 (same as a frost giant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1075.html)).
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
Con 12+ (151+ hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html)).
Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)).
Age: 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html).
Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Endurance (to sleep in armor without getting fatigued (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html)), Great Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html), Improved Disarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html), Improved Grapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html), Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots01070.html), Least Legacy, Lesser Legacy, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Spellsplinter Maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html), Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html).
Skills: Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html), Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1004.html), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), Knowledge: Geography (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), Listen low (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html), Spot low (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html).
Items: Magical armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), club (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html), newspaper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), heirloom +5 Starmetal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) Greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html) of Legacy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html), formal suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html), shillelagh oil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), Manual of Gainful Exercise (SSDT), non-magical boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html), book, sextant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), runestone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html), Wrecan's book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html), scarf, potions of Cure Serious, Remove Paralysis, Magical Vestment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html).

:belkar: Belkar Bitterleaf aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) male Ranger 14 / Barbarian 1 (forum, deafened by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
Dex 13+ (required for Spring Attack).
Int <10 (OOPC).
Wis 8-9 (ability score penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and can use a third-level scroll when buffed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)).
Cha <10 (without any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)).
Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)).
Feats: Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Assault (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html), Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html), Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html); no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).
Skills: Balance 5+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html), Craft: Trapmaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Handle Animal 0 (NCPB), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html), Move Silently 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Profession: gourmet chef 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Sense Motive 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Speak Language: Halfling (racial), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html), Survival 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1026.html), Use Magic Device (SSDT).
Abilities: Halfling racial abilities, ranger and barbarian class abilities, animal companion: Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html), favored enemy: human (forum) (http://www.sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=467) and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html), scent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).
Items: Unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html), Ring of Jumping +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html), quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), chef hat, Mama Bitterleaf's secret ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), clothespin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), 3 small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) (+4 and +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16461748&postcount=668), forum), mallet and spike (DSTP), mimic (SSDT), wand of dispel clothing (SSDT), 18 pounds of salt (GYG), book: Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), bucket and spade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), bag of holding full of money (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html), +5 Dagger of Collision (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html), +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html), Feather Fall item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html), spatula, stakes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/MrScruffy.png Mr. Scruffy
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889) (forum), Cat male, animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html).
Str 6 (animal companion).
Dex 18 (animal companion).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 2 (racial).
Wis 12 (racial).
Cha 7 (racial).
Age: 7 (WXP).
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3 (all racial skills).
Abilities: Racial abilities; animal companion abilities; 3 tricks, including attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) and come (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).
Items: String (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html), potion of Greater Magic Fang (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html).

:durkon: Durkon Allotrope Thundershield (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html))
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) male Cleric of Thor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) 14 (based on spells cast in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html)).
Str 14-19 (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)).
Dex <10 (dex penalty, SSDT).
Con ~12 (racial).
Wis 22-23 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon/page26)).
Cha <10 (low modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), see also DCF).
Age: 55+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html).
Feats: Extend Spell or Sudden Extend (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html).
Skills: Concentration 2+ (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19849945&postcount=851), Knowledge: Religion not maxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language: Dwarven (racial) and Giant (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, Turn Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)),
Items: Candles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), non-magical full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), deck of cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), heirloom light steel shield and warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html), parcheesi board (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html), flask of liquor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), Macebook (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), 5,000+ gp of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) (Greg used 5000 for Symbol of Death).
Spells: Standard cleric list, domain spells, plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html), Control Winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), Cure Itchy Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Heathen Smiting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), Mass Death Ward with backdoor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html), Thor's Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), and Tumor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html).

:elan: Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html), Human male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 14+ (required to retrain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) to Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0949.html)) / Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) 1+.
Str 10-11 (KS:H&J, and the same as Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955&postcount=47), forum).
Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)).
Con same as Nale.
Int 4-9 (too low to cast cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), but higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html).
Wis <10 (not even a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)).
Cha 22+ (required for 5th level spells at level 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), +2 from belt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Feats: Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisites for Spring Attack), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html).
Skills: Concentration 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html), Craft: Shiv 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), Perform: riddles 2+ (BRITF), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html)), Perform: string instruments 15+ (required for Song of Freedom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html)), Perform: kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), Ride 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Spellcraft 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0324.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html).
Abilities: Bard class abilities, charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), dramatic instincts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html).
Items: Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), coffee maker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), espresto box (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html), ceremonial meat costume (OOPC), dice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html), Boots of Elvenkind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), yoyo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), toothbrush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html), Lutey the Lute-tastical Lute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), evil sword (SSDT), castanets and sombrero (SSDT), equipment lists (GYG), Belt of Charisma +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), treasure chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), drawing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), The Stick the Order was named after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html), letter, Chaos Sabre (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html), Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), Armand Vestinghole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html); no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html), Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0949.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Lesser Confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html); no Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), nor Break Enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).

:haley: Haley Starshine aka Mistress Nightingale, aka The Red Blur (OOPC), aka Dark Mistress Shadowgale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html)
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), Human female Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) 16 (based on attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) and leveled since then (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html)).
Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html), forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3812297&postcount=580), but can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)).
Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 12+ (received bonus languages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html)).
Cha 12-19 (with any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html); and with maxed out Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), for Hide to be her best skill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
Age: About 25 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12254291&postcount=24) (forum; was 24 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and that was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) over a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html) year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)).
Feats: Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (prerequisite for IPS), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html).
Skills: Appraise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html), Bluff 18+ (maxed out) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18+ (best skill) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html), Knowledge: Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html), Knowledge: Religion low (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15175785&postcount=48), Open Lock 15, Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Search (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html) not maxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), Sense Motive 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Spellcraft 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0108.html), Use Magic Device 7+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), Use Rope 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat (based on feat count for her level).
Items: Two gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), towel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), hair dryer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), +5 Air Freshener of Pineness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), a lot of clothes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), +5 Icy Burst Longbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), bag of copper pieces (SSDT), magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11095086&postcount=2) (forum), trowel, metal detector (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), 4+ quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) including silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), three potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) (since Belkar took one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)), thief's tools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), Z's wands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), Wand of Obscuring Mist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html), and four others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), winter coat, Elan's coat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html).

:vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11664984#post11664984) (forum), Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) ambiguously gendered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html) Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html): Evoker (DCF) 16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html) (+1 caster level from Blackwing's ioun stone).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), and strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html)).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html); also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 24 (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html), and without any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)).
Age: 131+ (WXP).
Feats: Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html), Improved Counterspell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1058.html), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat); no Silent Spell (forum), nor Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Skills: Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Craft: Alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html), Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), Knowledge: Engineering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), Knowledge: Religion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) not high (forum) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15175785), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), Speak Language: Elven (racial), raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html), not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html), Use Magic Device 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).
Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), share spells with familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686399&postcount=36) (forum; also by elimination).
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) with a base int of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) at level 11), doily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html), Ring of Wizardry III or IV (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), many scrolls and spellbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html), Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), twelve more books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), Bleedingham papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), defensive potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html), Tarquin's whip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html).
Spells: Arcane Sight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html). Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), Bugsby's Clenched Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html), Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Bugsby's Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), Burning Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1026.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Dimensional Lock (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Heroism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Locate Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1020.html), Locate Object (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1077.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Mass Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html), Mind Blank (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1104.html), Overland Flight usable on others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Passwall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html), Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html), Power Word Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection from Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html), Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Shadow Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19156714&postcount=6) (to cast Evan's Tentacles, forum), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Stone to Flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Summon Plot Hole (Supercollider Mash-Up), True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), Wall of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html), Wall of Force (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html), unspecified polymorph spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html), unspecified sonic spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png Blackwing (Common name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html))
Raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) male, familiar.
Str 1 (racial).
Dex 15 (racial).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 13 (familiar).
Wis 14 (racial).
Cha 6 (racial).
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7 (racial skills), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks (familiar).
Abilities: Racial abilities; familiar abilities.
Items: Bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html), sunglasses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html).

[Kurald Galain]

Team Evil

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/PimpedXykon.png Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13027771&postcount=5) (forum) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Human male lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), Sorcerer 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Str 15+ (forum).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th level spells in one combat, SOD).
Age: 111+ (WXP).
Feats: Maximize Spell or Sudden Maximize (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Still Spell or Sudden Still (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), unspecified craft feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), Dodge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Concentration (required to cast while grappled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
Items: Soul gem (SOD), Ring of Positive Plane Protection (SOD), Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html), Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), Dorukan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), unspecified item that gives fire immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), bunch of scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), Boots of Freedom of Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html).
Spells: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), Epic Mage Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Greater Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), planar travel spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), summoning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), architecture spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html), and wall-breaking spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (required to cast 9th level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)).
Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) four times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)).
Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
Feats: Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).
Skills: Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), Knowledge: Nature (SOD), Speak Language: Goblin (racial), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html); no Draconic (NCPB).
Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html), Command Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html)) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
Items: Black armor (SOD), The Crimson Mantle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html), backup unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), eye patch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), 8th level scroll (WXP), Xykon's Phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html), Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Ring of protection from level drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), boots.
Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Human female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html): Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum) 3+ / Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+, and two more levels of Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast Create Undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) as a wizard).
Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) as a cleric).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html).
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)).
Abilities: Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), barred school (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), item that boosts caster level (to teleport six wights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html)), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html)), Xykon plushie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html).
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus wizard spells Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fire Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Mind Fog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910)).

:mitd: Monster In The Darkness
Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198-MitD-XI-A-good-man) for details.



The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html))
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human male, Fighter / Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 2+ (required for Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html)) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)); total level 15 (deafened by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Str 10-11 (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955), forum).
Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
Con same as Elan.
Int 13+ (required for Combat Expertise).
Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)).
Age: 22+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)).
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), business cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), wand of Enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html), Elixirs of Negative Energy Protection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html).
Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/ryRoj.png Hilgya Firehelm
Chaotic (required for Chaos domain) Evil (WXP), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) 14+ (based on spells cast per day).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha 6+ (can use Turn Undead).
Wis 24+ (based on spells cast per day).
Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
Feats: Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html), Chaos domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1117.html), Fire domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), Turn Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html).
Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html), holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)), mace, carrying sling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html), anarchic water (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html), wand of Protection from Law (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1110.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html), Gnome male, Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html) 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Feats: Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).
Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion: hawk "Kitty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html) (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Pompey.png Pompey
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57), Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)).
Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)).
Age: 44+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Feats: Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html).
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster I (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Summon Monster II, five unspecified touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html).

:sabine: Sabine
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 4+ (at least as high as her personal rival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)).
Str 19+ (can carry Nale and Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)).
Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Int 9+ (higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), lower than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883778&postcount=198), forum).
Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 2000+ (NCPB).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, immune to fatigue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html).
Items: Cellphone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

:thog: Thog
Non-lawful (required for rage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) / Barbarian 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) (required to have 3 attacks a round).
Str 22+ (to break down an iron door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) while raging).
Int <8 (racial, dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)).
Wis <10 (abysmal will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 17+ (WXP).
Feats: Improved Bull Rush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html).
Skills: Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html).
Abilities: Dungeoncrasher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11982830)), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yikyik.png Yikyik (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html))
Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html)).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Feats: Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html), Track (ranger bonus feat).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yokyok.png Yokyok (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html))
Kobold male.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
Items: Rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yukyuk2.png Yukyuk (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html))
Kobold male, Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) 4+ (required for an animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)) / Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Abilities: Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion: riding dog "Sir Scraggly" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).
Feats: Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities.
Items: Two Crossbows of Quick Loading (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Zzdtri.png Zz'dtri (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html))
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) 15 (deafened by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html)).
Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Feats: Lightning Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=822237)), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html).
Abilities: Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, +4 from feats and an item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)); drow racial abilities; barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), Break Enchantment: short version (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly: 3.0 version (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Locate Object (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html), Magic Circle Against Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Phantasmal Killer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Planar Binding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), Protection from Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Vitriolic Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), unspecified lightning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html).

[Kurald Galain]

The Sapphire Guard

https://i.stack.imgur.com/ziT4b.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) 12.
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)).
Age: 24+ (WXP).
Skills: Diplomacy (GDGU), Swim 0 (GDGU).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silvered katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) 12+ (higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
Int 10+ (good, not dumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)).
Wis 11+ (required to cast spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)).
Age: 29+ (five years older than Hinjo, DSTP).
Feats: Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html).
Items: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); Ring of Waterbreathing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1031.html), crossbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html).

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html))
Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 10-14 (three main-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), and three smites per day, forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).
Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).
Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html)).
Age: 28+ (WXP).
Feats: Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)), Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Quick Draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html), Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
Skills: Knowledge: the Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html), Knowledge: What The Hell She's Talking About 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), Spellcraft 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html), Survival 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html).
Abilities: Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).
Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.png O-Chul
Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter / Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) 3-4 (has Aura of Courage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) but no mount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html)), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)).
Con ~25 (WXP).
Cha <10 (dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)).
Age: 29+ (fighter for twelve years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)).
Skills: Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Diplomacy 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19163226&postcount=74) (forum), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html).
Items: Protective cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1031.html), go set, spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Shojo.png Shojo (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html))
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), Human male, Aristocrat 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html).
Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
Age: 72+ (WXP).
Feats: Improved Paranoia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), Perform (puppetry) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html).



The Vector Legion

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Tarquin
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), Human male, level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)).
Str 16+ (can carry Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)).
Dex, Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Int, Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Cha 16+ (higher than Nale, BRITF).
Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)).
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html), Ride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html).
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html), Counter Charge, Soaring Throw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html).
Items: helmet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), two Rings of Regeneration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), Ring of True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), Glamered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html) plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html), mask that says "Nope" on it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html), Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html).

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Soul-Muncher_zps9mnpfpuq.png Soul Muncher
Intelligent ki focus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html) axe.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Jacinda_zps7hwo2mqt.png Jacinda
Catfolk female.
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Kilkil.png Kilkil
Lawful Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Winged Kobold male, level 6-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Items: Glasses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities, Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/hbvD8.png Laurin Shattersmith
Evil (forum), Human female, Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html) 13+ (to be level drained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html) and still manifest Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html)).
Str, Dex, Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
Int 16+ (required to manifest Disintegrate).
Wis, Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
Age: 58+ (forum).
Items: Headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), two Ioun Stones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html).
Powers: Body Adjustment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Clairvoyant Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html), Control Body (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), Dispel Psionics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Energy Adaptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), Mental Disruption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Mind Probe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html), Telekinetic Force (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html), Wormhole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), unspecified attack power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png Malack (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)), pseudonym (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled&p=17331234&viewfull=1#post17331234) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56) (forum), Lizardfolk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) male vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html), Cleric of Nergal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) 12 (required for Craft Staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), but no higher spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715754&postcount=56), forum).
Str ~18 (no evidence, racial).
Con n/a (undead).
Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Int ~13 (no evidence, racial, age).
Wis 20+ (from spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15716359&postcount=751), forum).
Cha ~17 (no evidence, racial, age).
Age: 200+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html).
Feats: Craft Staff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html); Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial), Use Magic Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html).
Abilities: Vampire abilities, Destruction domain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15715919&postcount=61) (forum).
Items: Holy Symbol.
Spells: Standard cleric list and domain spells, plus Protection from Daylight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html).

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Miron_zpsolsb8sfv.png Miron Shewdanker
Evil (forum), Human male, Wizard 15+ or Sorcerer 16+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)).
Str, Dex ~9 (no evidence, age).
Con 6+ (forum).
Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Int or Cha 18+ (required to cast Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), depending on his class).
Age: 38+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16361374&postcount=218) (forum).
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html), Horrid Wilting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), unspecified defensive spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0925.html).

http://i.imgur.com/Uqj3cnA.png ???
We don't seem to know anything yet about the sixth member of the Vector Legion.

[Kurald Galain]

The Order of the Scribble

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SoonKim.png Soon Kim (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html))
Lawful Good, Human male Sacred Watcher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) 21+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana).
Con n/a (Deathless).
Cha ~14 (no evidence, Sacred Watcher).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html), Paladin class abilities, Sacred Watcher abilities, Deathless abilities.
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
Items: Enchanted Armor, Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd40/rtg0922/OotSSmilies/Dorukan.png Dorukan (deceased, SOD)
Neutral Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Human male, Wizard 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Str/Dex/Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int 19+ (required to cast Gate, SOD).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana 24+, Spellcraft 24+ (both required for Epic Spellcasting).
Spells: Arcane Half of the Mystic Gate ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Gate (SOD), Meteor Swarm (SOD), Monster Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html), Prismatic Spray (SOD), Pure Heart Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Seal Rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Scrying (SOD), Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell (SOD), unspecified summoning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u93/Reed_Copperstrand/Girard_new.png Girard Draketooth (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html))
Chaotic Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19163226&postcount=74) (forum), Black dragon-blooded human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) male, Ranger 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) / Sorcerer 19+ (low epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331), forum).
Cha 19+ (required to cast Microcosm).
Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), no Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331) (forum).
Spells: Microcosm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html), Recorded Message Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), unspecified illusion spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/UQSbX.gif Kraagor (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html))
Non-lawful, Dwarf male, Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Skills: Speak Language: Dwarven (racial).
Items: Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Lirian.png Lirian (deceased, SOD)
Neutral Good (forum), Elf female, Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) 21+ (Low Epic, forum).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 19+ (required to cast Shapechange, SOD).
Skills: Speak Language: Druidic (class) and Elven (racial).
Spells: Standard druid list, plus Divine Half of the Mystic Gate ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), Guardian Virus (SOD).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/1k7eL.png Serini Toormuck
Halfling female, Rogue 21+ (Low Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331)).
Str ~5 (no evidence, racial, age).
Dex ~9 (no evidence, racial, age).
Con ~7 (no evidence, age).
Int/Wis/Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
Items: Shortbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).



Family and other characters

https://i.stack.imgur.com/rMw71.gif Celia
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)).
Str 12+ (required to pull the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)).
Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) in a day).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), cast sorcerer spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), shoot lightning out of her fingers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html) (all racial abilities).
Skills: Profession: Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0269.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Items: Cell phone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), feeblemind causing blue dress (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html), black eyeliner pencil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html).
Spells: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), no necromancy spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Eugene.png Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html), Wizard: Illusionist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
Con n/a (undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)).
Age: 81+ (WXP).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Birth Control Spell (SOD), Conjure Chair (OOPC), Detect Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html), Summon Boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0525.html), Teleport (SOD), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png Greg (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html))
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html) male Cleric of Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) 15 (required to cast Symbol of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html)).
Str 20-25 (same as Durkon; +6 as vampire).
Dex <14 (same as Durkon; +4 as vampire).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
Wis 18+ (required to cast Symbol of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html)).
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes (all vampire bonus feats).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, vampire abilities.
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus Accelerate Vampirization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/IanGladiator.png Ian Starshine, aka Red (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)
Chaotic Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57) (forum), Human male, Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html).
Str, Con ~7 (no evidence, age)
Int, Wis, Cha ~12 (no evidence, age).
Age: 60+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html), Knowledge: Local (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html), Not Dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html), Open Lock (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
Items: Signed amnesty papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html), Elan's plan to take down Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html), dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/XGShF.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), Human female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html).
Int 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)).
Age: 17+ (five years younger than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)).
Feats: Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Spells: Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Mask Scent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/5O6gx.png Minrah Elle Shaleshoe (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html))
Non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html), Dwarf female, unspecified guard class 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1099.html) / Cleric 5 (required to cast Searing Light (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1093.html)).
Wis 13+ (required to cast Searing Light).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities, cleric class abilities, blind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1127.html).
Skills: Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html).
Items: Holy symbol, warhammer, armor, helmet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html).

https://i.stack.imgur.com/7z1rQ.png Qarr
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), Imp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) male, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), and to get only two Scorching Rays (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html)).
Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
Int 12+ (based on Zz'dtri's level).
Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html)).
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), suggestion, commune, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), darkvision, fast healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), plane shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), summon devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) (all racial abilities).
Spells: Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), Extraplanar Phone Connection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), Lesser Telepathic Bond (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Samantha.png Samantha (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html))
Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)).
Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), but has no bonus spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html) at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Age: 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).
Feats: Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), no Silent Spell, nor Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Spells: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html).

[Quartz]

Previous threads:

Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon)
Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended)
Class and Level Geekery XII - Even Nerds Call Us Nerds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329816-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XII-Even-Nerds-Call-Us-Nerds)
Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311888-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XI-Can-Now-Argue-Three-Times-Per-Page)
Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282328-Class-and-Level-Geekery-X-deals-1d6-thread-damage)
Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253978-Class-and-Level-Geekery-IX-the-thread-levels-up-again!)

Has anyone got the rest? My search-fu is lacking.

[Sermil]

I thought we'd decided to remove Greg's Protection from Daylight and replace with Quick-Vamp?

[Yanisa]

Previous threads:

Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485983-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIV-We-are-the-Geek-Pantheon)
Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended)
Class and Level Geekery XII - Even Nerds Call Us Nerds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329816-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XII-Even-Nerds-Call-Us-Nerds)
Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311888-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XI-Can-Now-Argue-Three-Times-Per-Page)
Class and Level Geekery X: deals +1d6 thread damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282328-Class-and-Level-Geekery-X-deals-1d6-thread-damage)
Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253978-Class-and-Level-Geekery-IX-the-thread-levels-up-again!)

Has anyone got the rest? My search-fu is lacking.

Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230935-Class-and-Level-Geekery-VIII-(spoilers-ahoy!))
Class and Level Geekery VII (some [spoilers]) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?210883-Class-and-Level-Geekery-VII-(some-spoilers-))
Class and Level Geekery VI (some [spoilers]) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131219-Class-and-Level-Geekery-VI-(some-spoilers-))
Class and Level Geekery V (some [spoilers]) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125953-Class-and-Level-Geekery-V-(some-spoilers-))
Class and Level Geekery IV (some [spoiler]s) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95005-Class-and-Level-Geekery-IV-(some-spoiler-s))
Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?61354-Class-and-Level-Geekery-III-(some-spoiler-s))
Class and Level Geekery II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?4912-Class-and-Level-Geekery-II)
Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?5124-Class-and-Level-Geekery)

[Quartz]

Thank you.

[InvisibleBison]

Incidentally, since no one actually answered the question earlier, a thrown pineapple would deal 1d4 + the thrower's Strength modifier points of damage

[unbeliever536]

I thought we'd decided to remove Greg's Protection from Daylight and replace with Quick-Vamp?

I don't think Kurald Galain has made any updates yet, just copied things over.

FAQ things:

First,


Q: Which source books are used in the comic?

Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters; Boost Spell Resistance feat)
Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
Complete Arcane (warlocks; Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
Complete Warrior (hexblade)
Dungeonscape (Thog; the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue; mindblade)
Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
Magic of Incarnum (mentioned by Redcloak's lackey)
Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
Oriental Adventures (other samurai class, and mentioned by Xykon)
Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)



Thog is of course not from Dungeonscape, but his Dungeoncrasher ability is. Also, we should add an entry for Players Handbook II (Two-Weapon Rend feat)*. Finally, what is the "blue" referred to in the entry for EPH?

* I swear there was another feat from that book in here somewhere.

I also suggest we add a FAQ entry for Tarquin's arrow catching since it's come up a few times. I propose


Q: How does Tarquin manage to catch more than one arrow in a round?
We don't know for sure. Popular theories are that he is an epic-level character and has the Infinite Deflection feat, that he has multiple Gloves of Arrow Snaring which he changes outside of combat, or that Snatch Arrows is houseruled to allow one use per hand. Each theory has its own flaws.

but I think that could be improved.

On Durkon (and therefore Greg),



Lemme make a nice little table for Durkon's spells to go with Zimmy's table for V. Based on Greg's casting of Planar Ally, I'm assuming Durkon's spells carried over from before he died. Nevertheless, I've separated spells known only from casting by Greg; these are on the right of the pipe symbol in the lists below. Spells prepared by Durkon (including, potentially, Greg's Planar Ally) are on the left.



0 - Guidance, |
1 - Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, | Command,
2 - Hold Person x2, Remove Paralysis, Cure Moderate Wounds, | "Cure" Moderate Wounds,
3 - Thor's Lightning, Speak with Dead, Dispel Magic, Mass Resist Energy, Meld Into Stone (D?), Remove Blindness/Deafness, |
4 - Cure Critical Wounds, Sending x2, |
5 - |
6 - Planar Ally, Heal x2, Find the Path, Extended True Seeing (any, esp of the last three, could be (D)), |
7 - Resurrection x2?, export edition Mass Death Ward, Holy Word (D) |

Plus an unknown maybe spell in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html).

We thus see: 1 / 6 0th-level spells, 3 / 7+1 1st-level, 5 / 7+1 2nd-level, 6 / 5+1 3rd-level, 3 / 5+1 4th-level, 0 / 4+1 5th-level, 0 5 / 4+1 6th-level, 4 / 3+1 7th-level.

[note: I honestly am kind of confused by my notation above. As a 14th level cleric with less than 22 Wisdom, though, Durkon has 3+1 6th level spells, 2+1 7th level spells, and 5+1 3rd level spells.]

Durkon implies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) that he can cast another Resurrection, but he might have a scroll or just extra diamond dust and 24 hours, since he definitely doesn't have 32 Wis. His two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html) Heals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) are more problematic unless he's got Divine Metamagic (Extend), in which case he can cast Extended True Seeing as a 5th level spell. There's also an extra 3rd level spell, but but we knew that already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?288636-Mortal-Durkon-was-a-Big-Liar!&p=15463933#post15463933) he can just have one of them in a higher level slot. If he doesn't have one of them in that higher level slot, I conclude that Durkon has the rather improbable Cavern domain, which grants both Meld Into Stone and Find the Path (none of his other 3rd level spells are granted by candidate domains).




Buried in the above analysis was a note about Durkon's casting of Extended True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html). Because he doesn't have enough 6th level spell slots to cast it normally, he must have either Sudden Extend or Divine Metamagic (Extend) and Extend Spell. If we've never seen him cast an Extended spell more than once in a day, it's possible for him to have only Sudden Extend and not Extend Spell.

Also, it might be worth noting on his sheet that Thor's Lightning is a 3rd level spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) and Export Strength Mass Death Ward is 7th.

Finally, Haley gained a third Rogue Special Ability when she hit level 16. We don't know what she spent it on.

[Sermil]

I thought we'd decided to remove Greg's Protection from Daylight and replace with Quick-Vamp?

Talking of Quick-Vamp, I suppose it's correct name should be "Rise and seek the blood of the living" since OOTS characters usually speak the name of their spell as they cast it, and that's what Malack says as he casts the spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html). That name sounds more like an Ars Magica spell than a D&D spell, though...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Finally, what is the "blue" referred to in the entry for EPH?

Psychic goblins. One is seen during one of the Interrogate O-Chul scenes, IIRC.

And to clear up my failing memory, what are GYG and SWMU shorthand for again?

[unbeliever536]

Psychic goblins. One is seen during one of the Interrogate O-Chul scenes, IIRC.

And to clear up my failing memory, what are GYG and SWMU shorthand for again?

GYG is Gygax Magazine. I don't know the other.

[hamishspence]

The "Evil" source entry for Hilgya is in error - it wasn't DCF that provided unambiguous Word of Giant that she was Evil - it was War & XPs - the commentary for the return of the Linear Guild.

[Quartz]

On Durkon (and therefore Greg),

Buried in the above analysis was a note about Durkon's casting of Extended True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html). Because he doesn't have enough 6th level spell slots to cast it normally, he must have either Sudden Extend or Divine Metamagic (Extend) and Extend Spell. If we've never seen him cast an Extended spell more than once in a day, it's possible for him to have only Sudden Extend and not Extend Spell.


The simpler explanation is that Durkon's spell slots and Greg's spell slots are separate or were renewed.

[Yanisa]

SWMU shorthand for again?

Supercollider Webcomic Mash Up. (See post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253978-Class-and-Level-Geekery-IX-the-thread-levels-up-again!/page27&p=14868953#post14868953) and this one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253978-Class-and-Level-Geekery-IX-the-thread-levels-up-again!&p=14873318&viewfull=1#post14873318))

As far as I can gather, it was a limited run in 2006 for an convention, and a 1000 copies were made. Source1 (http://www.thewebcomiclist.com/news/628/supercollider-a-webcomics-mashup), Source2 (https://web.archive.org/web/20061027142429/http://unseenllc.com:80/supercollider/).

I suggest adding either a common abbreviation section or just using full names for these very obscure OotS-sources.

[unbeliever536]

The simpler explanation is that Durkon's spell slots and Greg's spell slots are separate or were renewed.

Greg casts none of the spells in question except for Planar Ally, and we know Durkon had that spell prepared because he discusses it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Greg casts none of the spells in question except for Planar Ally, and we know Durkon had that spell prepared because he discusses it.
Furthermore, apart from planar ally, detect magic, and command (unless I'm missing a spell or two), Durkon's vampire casts nothing after arising to seek the blood of the living, and then says his spells for the day are spent. It's pretty clear that his spells were not refreshed upon vampirization, a significant drawback to Malack's hastened rising.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Furthermore, apart from planar ally, detect magic, and command (unless I'm missing a spell or two), Durkon's vampire casts nothing after arising to seek the blood of the living, and then says his spells for the day are spent. It's pretty clear that his spells were not refreshed upon vampirization, a significant drawback to Malack's hastened rising.

He spontaneously converts an inflict spell of a level I can't remember at the moment

[unbeliever536]

He spontaneously converts an inflict spell of a level I can't remember at the moment

2nd. It's an "attempt" to use Cure Moderate Wounds.

[Reboot]

http://i.imgur.com/4s0cG6s.gif Celia
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)).
Str 12+ (required to pull the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html)).

Ummm... the link for Celia pulling the cart is a link to a strip with Haley pulling the cart, where Celia doesn't even appear!

[Siosilvar]

Ummm... the link for Celia pulling the cart is a link to a strip with Haley pulling the cart, where Celia doesn't even appear!

She does pull it a short distance in 538, though. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)

[Chronos]

The current listing for Hilgya still doesn't mention that she can turn undead. Regardless of how she does it, we certainly know that she does somehow, and given that she's evil and thus wouldn't ordinarily be able to do so, it's worth calling out specifically (i.e., it's not covered under "cleric class abilities").

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Greg, by #1101, may not have researched Protection From Daylight (casting it with charges from the staff instead on all his buddies) and possibly has the (yet unnamed) spell that speeds up the vamping process.

EDIT: Oh wait, he Definitely has that spell. He no longer has the staff, so he must have the yet unnamed spell. Must be a pretty low-level spell, too, because he cast it upwards of 35 times in a day.

[unbeliever536]

Greg, by #1101, may not have researched Protection From Daylight (casting it with charges from the staff instead on all his buddies) and possibly has the (yet unnamed) spell that speeds up the vamping process.

EDIT: Oh wait, he Definitely has that spell. He no longer has the staff, so he must have the yet unnamed spell.

He hasn't needed to go out in the sun since entering the Godsmoot.

(I misread your post, sorry.)

[Kurald Galain]

Replaced Greg's learned spell with the raise vampire spell. Changed link for V's level, added note on the ioun stone, expanded SWMU acronym. Added potions and scarf, to Roy, potion to Mr. Scruffy, Elan's and her own coats to Haley. Added mace and carrying sling to Hilgya, turn undead ability, upped her level to 11, sourced her alignment to WXP. Since Loki is not a listed character, the thread doesn't track his alignment.

There's been some discussion on character inclusion. There's no clear consensus for including Ho Thanh, and we're not listing every member of the Sapphire Guard (and there are a lot of those in WXP and the O-Chul kickstarter story). Minrah has appeared too briefly to include at this point, unless it's made clear that she's an actual member of The Order instead of a random redshirt. Note that there's no strict rule about the categories used in the Appearances thread; it's basically arbitrary that a character is e.g. "major" with 60 appearances but "secondary" with 59. Rather, we start from the top of the list and keep going until there's characters with not enough information. The most prominent character currently not listed in this thread is Bandana; I'd prefer to work out stats for her before getting to lesser characters like Thanh.

And yeah, based on The Giant's posts we're really not going to write stats for a baby, although I'd be fine with giving him a line with just his name and a smily.


Thog is of course not from Dungeonscape, but his Dungeoncrasher ability is. Also, we should add an entry for Players Handbook II (Two-Weapon Rend feat)*. Finally, what is the "blue" referred to in the entry for EPH?
Please remind us where that feat is used. Fair point that Durkon could have either Extend Spell or Sudden Extend.

[Hecuba]

We've not listed Lien's crossbow: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html
Nor O'Chul's spyglass: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html

[unbeliever536]

Please remind us where that feat is used. Fair point that Durkon could have either Extend Spell or Sudden Extend.

I've made the argument that Belkar has a different set of feats than those listed (including Two-Weapon Rend), of which a good example of use would be the fight against the hex hag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html), where Belkar makes a "halfling rage jumping attack" that involves hitting with both daggers. If you don't accept that argument and instead go with the feats listed, Bounding Assault is also PHBII.

[Kurald Galain]

We've not listed Lien's crossbow: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html
Nor O'Chul's spyglass: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html
Added.


I've made the argument that Belkar has a different set of feats than those listed (including Two-Weapon Rend), of which a good example of use would be the fight against the hex hag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html), where Belkar makes a "halfling rage jumping attack" that involves hitting with both daggers. If you don't accept that argument and instead go with the feats listed, Bounding Assault is also PHBII.
I would like to see some more discussion on this. The hag fight could be either Bounding Assault or Leap Attack, as there's nothing stopping you from making a jump check with BA. While it's a fair point that the attack in the thief guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) isn't covered by Bounding Assault, it strikes me that it wouldn't be covered by Two Weapon Pounce either - both options only allow for two attacks.

[unbeliever536]

Added.


I would like to see some more discussion on this. The hag fight could be either Bounding Assault or Leap Attack, as there's nothing stopping you from making a jump check with BA. While it's a fair point that the attack in the thief guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) isn't covered by Bounding Assault, it strikes me that it wouldn't be covered by Two Weapon Pounce either - both options only allow for two attacks.

The first question in my mind is whether Bounding Assault allows you to attack with an off-hand weapon using the second attack. It gives you an extra attack at a -5 penalty, which is essentially an iterative, but iteratives are not well-defined in the rules. The question then becomes, can you use your iteratives to make attacks with off-hand weapons? If so, I'd be willing to accept it ... but there's still a problem. Bounding Assault has a BAB 12+ prerequisite. At the time the Hex Hag strip was published, this was ok but not great, since it required him to have gained two levels from the bandits and other encounters since town. However, we know from the CDMI strip that his level 12 feat was CDMI, which means he couldn't possibly have Bounding Assault during the hex hag fight, even if he was level 12 at the time. Meanwhile he could have had Two-Weapon Rend Pounce as early as level 6, and it unambiguously explains the Hex Hag attack. Belkar thus definitely has Two-Weapon Rend Pounce, and I'm pretty sure he has Leap Attack as well. Leap Attack is a separate rules question, though, which I'm not addressing in this post.

Belkar could conceivably need Bounding Assault for his attack on Miron (listed as evidence for Spring Attack, which is certainly insufficient because Belkar makes two attacks), but this suffers from the same initial problem as the Hex Hag fight, and pushes his feat count too high unless you assume he has none of Improved Sunder, Leap Attack, or Power Attack.

I think the simplest way to resolve the Miron fight is to assume Belkar's movement is depicted in a stylized manner, as it must be in the Thieves' Guild fight, and just drop the entire Dodge tree, for which no other evidence remains.

Regardless, Belkar's current entry has one too many feats, and he must lose one of Improved Sunder or Bounding Assault based on prerequisites. If you add Two-Weapon Rend, he must lose a second feat.

ED:

For completion's sake, in strip 860 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Belkar attacks Nale with the same jump -> attack with each weapon manuever as in the Hex Hag fight. I'm not sure if he does it on panel anywhere else in the comic.

[Quartz]

Why are we actually putting down CDMI as an actual feat rather than as a break of the 4th Wall?

[unbeliever536]

Why are we actually putting down CDMI as an actual feat rather than as a break of the 4th Wall?

For one thing, Belkar doesn't break the 4th wall during that scene. He's just explaining to Durkon how he came up with his line, and why it worked. More importantly, it's simpler to just take the things the characters say at face value, like Elan's immunity to damage from broken glass.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm not sure about this, but what's the consensus on Thor's Might and Hel's Might? Is this just Durkon and Greg's respective gods/goddesses giving them power, or would it count as an ability/spell?

If it's the first one, I'm sure Durkon's spells "Heathen Smiting", "Tumor" and "Heat Blisters Of Eternal Pain" would also be things that Thor grants upon him (a bit of his power put into the answering machine). I'm also sure that if they were spells Durkon could cast without asking Thor's answering machine first in prayer (he was out of spells at the time, I think) he would have used them at some point in the last 1100 comics if this wasn't just a gag. So, I don't think they should be in his spells list

[Douglas]

I'm pretty sure both Thor's Might and Hel's Might are just different names for Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm).

[Rogar Demonblud]

If Hilgya can cast Scrying, she has to have a Wisdom of 15.

[Chronos]

And Righteous Might is a standard cleric spell, so any cleric (regardless of domains) can cast it, so it doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know (namely, that Durkon and not-Durkon are both clerics).

Thor's Lightning is probably also a renaming of some other spell, but we don't know which one, and none of the likely prospects is on the standard cleric list, so we continue to list that one explicitly as something that Durkon has, and which presumably came from one of his domains.

[Aquillion]

Thor's Lightning is probably also a renaming of some other spell, but we don't know which one, and none of the likely prospects is on the standard cleric list, so we continue to list that one explicitly as something that Durkon has, and which presumably came from one of his domains.
It is almost certainly Call Lightning, since the comic of Durkon using it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) shows it striking from the sky instead of from his fingertips, as it would with Lightning Bolt.

Call Lightning is the third level domain spell of the Forgotten Realms Storm Domain.

[hamishspence]

It is almost certainly Call Lightning, since the comic of Durkon using it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) shows it striking from the sky instead of from his fingertips, as it would with Lightning Bolt.

That may be the exception rather than the rule though - most of the time, it strikes horizontally:


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html

Maybe Durkon calls "Thor's Lightning" for several different spells, instead of bothering with "Thor's Lightning Bolt" or "Thor's Chain Lightning"?

[unbeliever536]

It is almost certainly Call Lightning, since the comic of Durkon using it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) shows it striking from the sky instead of from his fingertips, as it would with Lightning Bolt.

Call Lightning is the third level domain spell of the Forgotten Realms Storm Domain.

What's the 6th level spell in the Storm domain? Durkon's 6th level spell from his second domain must be Planar Ally, Heal, or Find the Path.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What's the 6th level spell in the Storm domain? Durkon's 6th level spell from his second domain must be Planar Ally, Heal, or Find the Path.

If the Forgotten Realms wiki is to be believed, Summon monster VI (air only).

GW

[Stabbey]

However, we know from the CDMI strip that his level 12 feat was CDMI, which means he couldn't possibly have Bounding Assault during the hex hag fight, even if he was level 12 at the time.

Well, that could have been just him making a joke, but I can see that disputing whether or not he actually took it would just open up a huge can of worms calling everything else into question, so it's best left unopened.

[Kalmegil]

For one thing, Belkar doesn't break the 4th wall during that scene. He's just explaining to Durkon how he came up with his line, and why it worked. More importantly, it's simpler to just take the things the characters say at face value, like Elan's immunity to damage from broken glass.

The immunity to broken glass is physically demonstrated. I agree Belkar isn't breaking the fourth wall there, but CDMI is almost certainly an in-character joke. He doesn't need the feat to do what he did. It strikes me as a terrible misreading to use that comic as a reason to occupy one of Belkar's feat spots. Especially when its inclusion causes Belkar to have one feat too many listed.

I recommend CDMI be removed or, if it's to be listed, marked as a possible joke and not used as a basis for removing any other feats.

[unbeliever536]

The immunity to broken glass is physically demonstrated. I agree Belkar isn't breaking the fourth wall there, but CDMI is almost certainly an in-character joke. He doesn't need the feat to do what he did. It strikes me as a terrible misreading to use that comic as a reason to occupy one of Belkar's feat spots. Especially when its inclusion causes Belkar to have one feat too many listed.

I recommend CDMI be removed or, if it's to be listed, marked as a possible joke and not used as a basis for removing any other feats.

Between the village (when Belkar just barely hit level 10) and the Hex Hag, Belkar kills three low level barbarians (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html) and is involved in the ogre fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html), the first bandit fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0152.html), the second bandit "fight" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html), and the tetherball special (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) (and I'm being generous by including the last two; the second bandit encounter isn't a fight and ends in a loss, and Belkar doesn't really participate in the last one). Do you think that's enough to get him the ~21,000 XP he would need to be level 12 during the Hex Hag fight?

ed:

I also just noticed that while his inventory does state that he has three daggers, it doesn't mention that his third one is a +5 Collision dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html).

[zimmerwald1915]

According to Haley, Elan was level 12 by strip 382 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html)

[Kalmegil]

Between the village (when Belkar just barely hit level 10) and the Hex Hag, Belkar kills three low level barbarians (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html) and is involved in the ogre fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html), the first bandit fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0152.html), the second bandit "fight" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html), and the tetherball special (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) (and I'm being generous by including the last two; the second bandit encounter isn't a fight and ends in a loss, and Belkar doesn't really participate in the last one). Do you think that's enough to get him the ~21,000 XP he would need to be level 12 during the Hex Hag fight?

I don't understand why this question is directed at me. It has nothing to do with what I said.

[unbeliever536]

I don't understand why this question is directed at me. It has nothing to do with what I said.

You're right, the relationship is a bit distant. If Belkar isn't level 12 by the Hex Hag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) fight, he can't have had Bounding Assault then, which means it can't explain the double stab and he must have Two-Weapon Rend Pounce*. In that case, he would have two feats more than is legal, and removing CDMI wouldn't solve the problem. At that point you're back to the same "which feat(s) do we remove" problem I talked about before.

In that case, the feats he has that are not prerequisites for other feats are TWP, CDMI, Bounding Assault, and Improved Sunder. Removing Bounding Assault allows Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack to all be removed, and removing Improved Sunder allows Power Attack to be removed. I think the most economical thing is to just dump the entire Dodge tree, since (1) it's only there if Bounding Assault is needed, (2) the only evidence for Bounding Assault is the Miron fight and we have evidence that Belkar's movement might be stylized anyway (and also, note that Elan and Mr Scruffy seem to teleport off panel for no particular reason immediately before Laurin's attack), and (3) I believe that the Hex Hag fight also shows that Belkar has Leap Attack, which would require keeping Power Attack even without Improved Sunder.

As to why Belkar would have Power Attack despite getting no benefit from it, we're shown in the very first strip that Belkar got screwed by the 3.5 update, prior to which Power Attack would have benefited him (according to dandwiki, which is admittedly not the most reliable source).

ed:


According to Haley, Elan was level 12 by strip 382 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html)

We've actually got a better one for this argument: according to the Giant, Belkar was level 12 by strip 250 or so (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?6495-Order-of-the-Stick-November-II/page17&p=291639#post291639). That's a while after the strip in question, of course, and follows the dragon fight, the dirt farmer rescue mission, and the events of the inn (where again Belkar didn't do much), but it does show that he could be telling the truth about CDMI, assuming it's actually a feat.

* I just realized that I've been saying Two-Weapon Rend this entire time when it's not the feat I mean. Rather embarrassing given my guessed origin for the Bounding Assault entry.

e2:

I found the discussion that resulted in Bounding Assault being added (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311888-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XI-Can-Now-Argue-Three-Times-Per-Page&p=16430738) (as Bounding Attack). It starts with questions about whether Belkar's fight with Crystal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html) means he has Improved Trip. Despite what everyone there is saying, the only reason to believe he does is that Crystal doesn't appear to get an AoO, as the "new round" version allows Belkar to have full attacked with a trip at the start. Belkar also doesn't qualify for Combat Expertise and therefore can't get Improved Trip. There was some discussion of giving Belkar flaws, which would grant him feats, but that obviously never happened (and unless he talks about having flaws-the-game-mechanic, probably never should). Thread XIII corrected the name of the feat to Bounding Assault and linked it to the Hex Hag fight for reasons which remain mysterious to me.

In any case, Wombat's post there is referring to the discussion earlier in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311888-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XI-Can-Now-Argue-Three-Times-Per-Page&p=16359106&highlight=spring+attack#post16359106) about the Miron strip, which resulted in Spring Attack being added (and Great Cleave being removed). In any case, the Miron fight is pretty well-worn territory at this point and I'm not going to bore everyone by reiterating the stuff I've already said about it.

[Ephemera]

I think that trying to extrapolate level from the number of feats, or limiting number of feats based on assumed level, given the amount of uncertainty involved, is basically circular reasoning (even leaving aside the fact that the giant is almost certainly not counting feats, let alone pre-requisites).

If therefore suggest as regards CDMI that we leave it in (Belkar did make the claim, after all) with an asterisk/parenthetical reading something like “Belkar’s claim may be a joke, so possession of this feat should not be taken as evidence for his total number of feats.”

[unbeliever536]

I think that trying to extrapolate level from the number of feats, or limiting number of feats based on assumed level, given the amount of uncertainty involved, is basically circular reasoning (even leaving aside the fact that the giant is almost certainly not counting feats, let alone pre-requisites).


For Roy this would make sense, since he's a fighter and thus has a huge number of feats. For most other characters, though, it's pretty easy to pin them to a particular number of feats, since feats advance slowly with level and non-fighters have a relatively limited selection of bonus feats.

edit:

Just to show it's possible, here's a feat analysis for Haley. She's a 16th level human rogue, so she has the following feat slots available:

H - Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow)
1 - Point Blank Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
6 - Dodge?
9 - Manyshot
10 (RSA) - Ranged Pin?
12 - Ranged Sunder
13 (RSA) - Precise Shot
15 - Improved Precise Shot
16 (RSA) - ???

Feats marked (RSA) are bonus feats from a Rogue Special Ability. These may be any feat, but they're relatively infrequent. The first feat Haley demonstrates she has is MWP (Longbow). In strip 62 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) she demonstrates both Rapid Shot and Manyshot, which also imply Point Blank Shot, so I'll give her those as early as she can take them. She then uses Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) (we assume) on Roy's corpse. There's no obvious way to do what she does in the rules, but Ranged Pin is fairly close. Next she Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html)s a hobgoblin's whip. Then in #615 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html) she says she's "got a feat that does most of [what the Seeking property would grant her]". This feat is Improved Precise Shot (ignore less than total cover/concealment; it's rare that she'd be able to target someone with full cover or concealment, so Seeking isn't a big upgrade), which requires BA +11 and Precise Shot. Thus IPS is her 15th* level feat and Precise Shot is either her 13th or 6th level feat. According to SSDT, which I don't own, she also has Dodge. To be conservative, I'll give her Dodge at level 6 and Precise Shot at level 13. It's not totally clear how much stuff carries over from SSDT, so she might not actually have that feat.

Dodge and Ranged Pin are the most questionable feats here, but they're legal and don't determine her level so I settle on the side that she does have them. She may or may not have another feat, gained from her 16th level Rogue Special Ability. If we ever see her clearly take half damage from a threat that offers a Reflex Save (I don't think we have), we'll know she spent it on Improved Evasion. There are others, but that would probably be the most obvious one, as many relate to melee combat.

* The table of levelups currently lists #648 for her 15th level. Both 648 and 615 demonstrate that she is level 15, but 615 is first, so she's got the level a bit earlier than we currently state.

e2:

Just for fun, I did a set of these tables for the entire OOTS. My table for Belkar is in a previous thread and I won't take up more space with the rest of them unless someone asks. That said, it's interesting to note that Roy has only two free feat slots left. They don't need to be fighter bonus feats, though, and they can move around pretty freely. If there's some way for him to get around the Large size requirement (without spending another feat, obviously), those last two feats could be Rock Hurling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1073.html) and Fling Enemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) (e3: actually, it's possible his throws of Xykon and Enor could be explained by Martial Study (Mighty Throw) instead of Improved Grapple and maybe Fling Enemy). Unless someone can come up with a way for Roy to avoid the size requirement, though, I don't think those things are adequate evidence. Regardless, Belkar has one free feat slot (maybe zero if there's a way for the Bounding Assault advocates to save CDMI), depending on how the current argument resolves, Vaarsuvius has five, Elan has three, and Durkon has three.

[Kranerian]

110 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html)9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html): Looks like Count Durkula's gotten himself some 8th level spell slots, so he's level 15. Not sure where he would have gotten the XP to level though with that +8 level adjustment, unless that's a carry-over from the pyramid battle before he died.

Edit: Also, V seems pretty confident that Roy and Belkar each have 150+ HP, and that nobody else does.

[zimmerwald1915]

Spells cast from Strip 1084 to Strip 1150:
8th symbol of death (1109), - (domain, lost 1149 from losing level 15)
7th mass inflict serious wounds (1119), - (lost 1150 from losing level 14), - (lost 1149 from losing Vampire WIS bonus), - (domain)
6th greater dispel magic (1122), antilife shell (1126), - , - (lost 1150 from losing level 14), - (domain)
5th commune (1084), - , - , - , - (lost 1149 from losing level 15), - (domain)
4th sending (1109), - , - , - , - (lost 1149 from losing Vampire WIS bonus), - (domain)
3rd protection from energy (1150), - , - , - , - , - , - (lost 1149 from losing level 15), - (domain)
2nd - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - (domain)
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - (domain)
0 - , - , - , - , - , -
8th mind blank x2 (1091, 1104), - (specialist, drained 1102)
7th forcecage (specialist, 1102), quickened fireball (mentioned not cast 1104, possibly drained 1105 [out of 2 drained 1105]), - (possibly drained 1105 [out of 2 drained 1105]), - (possibly drained 1105 [out of 2 drained 1105]), -
6th - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
5th - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
4th stoneskin (1117), - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
3rd fireball (1122), - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
2nd see invisibility (1100), - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
1st magic missile x2 (specialist, 1105, 1120), - , - , - , - , -
0 light (1101), - , - , -
8th resurrection (1149 [7th-level spell prepared in 8th-level slot]), incendiary cloud/cloak of chaos (domain)
7th greater scrying (1109), empowered flame strike x2 (1119, 1128), fire storm/word of chaos (domain)
6th - , - , - , - , fire seeds/animate objects (domain)
5th summon monster V (1116), flame strike x2 (1123, 1149), raise dead (1150), - , fire shield/dispel law (domain)
4th death ward (1110), restoration (1110), - , - , - , - , chaos hammer (domain, 1117)
3rd - , - , - , - , - , - , - , resist energy/magic circle against law (domain)
2nd - , - , - , - , - , - , - , produce flame/shatter (domain)
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - , burning hands/protection from law (domain)
0 - , - , - , - , - , -
1109 confirms that Durkon (because the vampire uses Durkon's stats as a base, and only exists mechanically as the vampire template [which applies +2 Wis, hence the 24 Wis instead of 22], not a creature with its own hit dice) is level 15.

EDIT: oh, and Hilgya's level 13+, going by her use of greater scrying.

[RickDaily12]

Okay. If Hilgya can cast Greater Scrying, she has a minimum Wisdom of 17. And, unfortunately, she's done this without a spell scroll, therefore she's had the spell prepared, and she's a minimum Cleric level of 13.

That is... difficult, to reconcile with the Vampire Spawn problem as we've previously debated before.

What if the Church of Loki allows its clerics to turn undead, but as a lower Cleric level than that of a Good cleric/positive energy Neutral cleric?

[b_jonas]

Edit: Also, V seems pretty confident that Roy and Belkar each have 150+ HP, and that nobody else does. No. Vaarsuvius is confident that Roy has more than 150 HP. She doesn't care about Belkar.

[zimmerwald1915]

No. Vaarsuvius is confident that Roy has more than 150 HP. She doesn't care about Belkar.
The arena scene shows a rapport growing between Vaarsuvius and Belkar. Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius's relationship with Elan has been on a downward trajectory since the start of the comic, and broke entirely when Vaarsuvius left the Azurite fleet.

[Chronos]

V is confident that the Symbol of Death probably isn't a threat to Roy due to his "general heartiness", but unfortunately, there are two different interpretations of what that means: It could mean that he has over 150 HP and thus would be completely immune to the Symbol, or it could just mean that he has a very good Fort save and thus would be likely to save against it. Neither is a very remarkable statement for a high-level fighter, so I don't think we can learn anything about Roy this way, and a wizard, rogue, and bard would all be "frailer" by either standard, so we can't learn anything about the others this way, either. For whatever reason, V doesn't mention Belkar in either category (hearty or frail), so we also can't learn anything about him, either.

[unbeliever536]

110 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html)9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1109.html): Looks like Count Durkula's gotten himself some 8th level spell slots, so he's level 15. Not sure where he would have gotten the XP to level though with that +8 level adjustment, unless that's a carry-over from the pyramid battle before he died.


I find it rather unlikely that Durkon was level 15 at the start of Pyramid Day. If nothing else, Holy Aura would have made the second Linear Guild fight simpler. That said, depending on how level up rules work in OOTS, it's possible he reached level 15 before dying on that day and simply didn't get a chance to prepare his new spells. If he was level 15 by the time of that fight in the pyramid, that would put Belkar and Nale at level 16 and give Belkar an opportunity to have acquired his Favored Enemy (Undead), which we suspect he didn't have during the battle of Azure City.

As to Belkar, while he can't match Roy's HD and Constitution, he is the only other (living) member of the OOTS with a good Fortitude save. He can't ignore the Symbol of Death, but it's less likely to work on him.

[Chei]

The arena scene shows a rapport growing between Vaarsuvius and Belkar. Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius's relationship with Elan has been on a downward trajectory since the start of the comic, and broke entirely when Vaarsuvius left the Azurite fleet.

It didn't occur to me until you said this, but V has probably been calling Elan 'the bard' because his last name hadn't been revealed. He couldn't be a Miss Starshine, Master Thundershield, or Sir Greenhilt, so he had to get lumped in with 'the halfling'.

[RickDaily12]

It didn't occur to me until you said this, but V has probably been calling Elan 'the bard' because his last name hadn't been revealed. He couldn't be a Miss Starshine, Master Thundershield, or Sir Greenhilt, so he had to get lumped in with 'the halfling'.

I'm not seeing what he meant either, so I'll just remind myself in the back of my mind that we're responding to V's #1 greatest fan here.

Okay, but in all seriousness, I want to ask a bit more directly about the previous comic.

We all assumed that the vampires we saw in the Forcecage fight were spawn, but since Hilgya has now demonstrated as being Level 13, we have to assume that our current parameters by RAW are impossible to reconcile now. Right?

So, other than outward WoG, is there any rules reason Hilgya might have for being unable to destroy the vampires when she Turned them?

[knag]

Does the "Anarchic Water" in 1109 imply anything about Hilgya's alignment? Specifically that she's Chaotic Neutral and not Chaotic Evil, or at least that she leans more toward Chaos than Evil?

[Aquillion]

Does the "Anarchic Water" in 1109 imply anything about Hilgya's alignment? Specifically that she's Chaotic Neutral and not Chaotic Evil, or at least that she leans more toward Chaos than Evil?Technically, using Anarchic Water as the focus for scrying is a houserule (unless there's some book outside the core that addresses it.) Scrying, by the book, always uses Holy Water as its focus. So we can't really deduce anything from it.

[Chei]

So, other than outward WoG, is there any rules reason Hilgya might have for being unable to destroy the vampires when she Turned them?

Sure. If those were in fact vampires rather than just spawn (HD > 4) they'd be much harder to destroy. I'm going to say that's the most likely explanation for them surviving the turning of a more powerful cleric than originally surmised.

[knag]

Technically, using Anarchic Water as the focus for scrying is a houserule (unless there's some book outside the core that addresses it.) Scrying, by the book, always uses Holy Water as its focus. So we can't really deduce anything from it.

Can we at least deduce that it means she's Chaotic rather than "non-lawful" as shown in the OP?

[Aquillion]

I mean, it's obviously intended to signal that she's chaotic. Technically a neutral cleric could create Anarchic Water, but it's not clear why they would when there's no hint of lawful outsiders around.

[Chronos]

I think that the rulebook which introduced anarchic water (Planar Handbook?) specifically says that it can be used in the same way as holy water, aside from alignment issues (thus allowing a chaotic cleric to scry using a font of anarchic water). But that source might also have some information about who can make/use anarchic water, which might be useful for our purposes.

[Jasdoif]

I think that the rulebook which introduced anarchic water (Planar Handbook?) specifically says that it can be used in the same way as holy water, aside from alignment issues (thus allowing a chaotic cleric to scry using a font of anarchic water).I didn't see anything of that nature....The description is a copy/paste/edit of holy water's text, rather than referencing holy water anywhere.

Then again, scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) says clerics require a "holy water font" as a focus without making an exception for evil clerics who can't produce holy water themselves; so I'd imagine the spell means "holy water" as a generic for "aligned water"....I will admit to being amused with the idea that any container with the word "holy" written on it with Aquan glyphs would work, but I don't think they meant that kind of font.


But that source might also have some information about who can make/use anarchic water, which might be useful for our purposes.The anarchic water spell is listed as a cleric spell and has the "Chaotic" descriptor; so clerics who are Lawful (or have Lawful deities) can't cast it.

[Liquor Box]

V is confident that the Symbol of Death probably isn't a threat to Roy due to his "general heartiness", but unfortunately, there are two different interpretations of what that means: It could mean that he has over 150 HP and thus would be completely immune to the Symbol, or it could just mean that he has a very good Fort save and thus would be likely to save against it. Neither is a very remarkable statement for a high-level fighter, so I don't think we can learn anything about Roy this way, and a wizard, rogue, and bard would all be "frailer" by either standard, so we can't learn anything about the others this way, either. For whatever reason, V doesn't mention Belkar in either category (hearty or frail), so we also can't learn anything about him, either.

I tend to think we can infer that V was referring to Belkar and Hilgya as well. Again, this would be reasonable, as those three probably have the highest fort and HP in the group.

I wondered if the fact that V said "it is likely of little concern..." suggests it is Roy's fortitude save instead of his hitpoints that would keep him safe.On my read of the spell, if Roy had greater that 150hp he would certainly be safe, but if he had a very high fort save he would only probably be safe. But on reflection that it more likely just V being imprecise with his language.

[D.One]

We all assumed that the vampires we saw in the Forcecage fight were spawn, but since Hilgya has now demonstrated as being Level 13, we have to assume that our current parameters by RAW are impossible to reconcile now. Right?

So, other than outward WoG, is there any rules reason Hilgya might have for being unable to destroy the vampires when she Turned them?

By RAW, at least the ones she turned must be full Vampires, no Spawns, in order to not beeing destroyed. That means also that these ones have at least 5 HD. With turning resistance of +4, that means they have an "effective HD" for turning of at least 9.

Hilgya turned 4 of them, which means she had at least a result of 36 for turning damage.

In a roll of 2d6+level+Charisma modifier, that means she has at least +24 beetween level and Charisma modifier... that's hard.

On the other hand, she might have (I'd say probably has) Empower Turning, from Complete Divine, which increases the final result of turning damage by 50%.

With that, she needs a minimum result of only 24 to be able to turn the 4 vampires, which brings us to a minimum Level+CHarisma Modifier of +12. Since we've pinpointed her level in 13+, she could even have a -1 Charisma penalty (for a score of 8 or 9) and still be able to turn them.

If her level is greater than 13, she could even have a Charisma lower than 8.

OK, we need more intel... :smallfrown:

[Chronos]

V not mentioning Hilgya or Belkar (or for that matter, Minrah) could mean that they're implicitly in the "hearty" category (they likely are), but it could just as well mean that they're implicitly in the "frail" category. I think the simplest explanation for V not mentioning them is that e was just giving examples, not an exhaustive list.

And e also did say "probably" not a concern, and I don't think e was speaking imprecisely (Vaarsuvius always speaks precisely). But that still doesn't necessarily mean e was referring to Roy's Fort save: It could also reflect an uncertainty on es part as to Roy's precise HP total.

On the matter of Hilgya's level, another possibility is that she's not a level 13 cleric. Her actual cleric levels might be lower, but with the remainder being in a prestige class which advances casting but not turn/destroy undead (which is how most cleric prestige classes work, after all). And there is precedent for prestige classes being for clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html).

[danielxcutter]

Also, "Greg" appears to have reached his 15th level of Cleric... Does that mean Durkon was 15th level? Hmm...

[dps]

And e also did say "probably" not a concern, and I don't think e was speaking imprecisely (Vaarsuvius always speaks precisely). But that still doesn't necessarily mean e was referring to Roy's Fort save: It could also reflect an uncertainty on es part as to Roy's precise HP total.



Agree on both parts. Unfortunately, that doesn't help us much here.

[Quartz]

Minrah identified the Symbol of Death. What does that tell us about her Spellcraft skill? Since this is a non-combat situation, can we assume she was Taking 10?

[D.One]

Minrah identified the Symbol of Death. What does that tell us about her Spellcraft skill? Since this is a non-combat situation, can we assume she was Taking 10?

Since, for skill checks, a natural 20 doesn't mean automatic success, and since the DC to "Identify a spell being cast (by seeing or hearing the spell’s verbal or somatic components)" is 15+spell level (23 for a Symbol of Death), she must have a Spellcraft modifier of at least +3, and must have at least 1 rank in the skill, since it can't be used untrained (unless she has the Jack of All Trades feat, that is).

EDIT:

Not much information beyond that, since +3 is a fairly easy minimum modifier to achieve using ranks, INT modifier and feats (Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus,...)

EDIT 2:

The possibility of Taking 10 doesn't matter much here, since we are trying to calculate her minimum modifier and ranks in the skill, and thus must assume the best roll possible.

[Reboot]

Since, for skill checks, a natural 20 doesn't mean automatic success, and since the DC to "Identify a spell being cast (by seeing or hearing the spell’s verbal or somatic components)"...

Of course, she appears to identify it via the rune itself, rather than the casting as such.

[Also, in OOTSland, since the verbal component of a spell is invariably the spell name, as long as you make the Listen check, you could probably always identify a spell being cast - even without a single Spellcraft rank - that way :p ]

[Grey_Wolf_c]

[Also, in OOTSland, since the verbal component of a spell is invariably the spell name

Not invariably. E.g. SOD's Xykon's mental domination of MitD.

GW

[b_jonas]

Since, for skill checks, a natural 20 doesn't mean automatic success, and since the DC to "Identify a spell being cast (by seeing or hearing the spell’s verbal or somatic components)" is 15+spell level (23 for a Symbol of Death), she must have a Spellcraft modifier of at least +3, and must have at least 1 rank in the skill, since it can't be used untrained (unless she has the Jack of All Trades feat, that is). What if he silently cast a Read Magic cantrip?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, "Greg" appears to have reached his 15th level of Cleric... Does that mean Durkon was 15th level? Hmm...

Since he used an 8th at the Godsmoot, yes.

[unbeliever536]

Since he used an 8th at the Godsmoot, yes.

Spells cast by Greg at the Godsmoot:

- Silence (2nd)
- Summon Proxy (level unknown)
- Hold Person (2nd)
- Destruction (7th)
- Inflict Serious Wounds (3rd)
- Harm (6th)
- Righteous Might (5th)
- Antilife Shell (6th)

I'm not seeing an 8th level spell. Nor would such necessarily demonstrate that Durkon is also level 15, although it's quite possible.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You're right, I got Antilife Sphere and Antimagic Sphere confused.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nor would such necessarily demonstrate that Durkon is also level 15, although it's quite possible.
Yes it would. Greg is not a creature with his own hit dice or class levels. Greg uses Durkon's class levels and as his sole D&D-mechanical function, applies the vampire template on top of them. That's precisely what made Durkon so valuable to Hel.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes it would. Greg is not a creature with his own hit dice or class levels. Greg uses Durkon's class levels and as his sole D&D-mechanical function, applies the vampire template on top of them. That's precisely what made Durkon so valuable to Hel.

Err... I believe the point might have been that Durkon might have been, say, level14 but close to leveling up, and even with the severe leveling penalties of vampires, Greg may have managed to level to 15.

GW

[zimmerwald1915]

Err... I believe the point might have been that Durkon might have been, say, level14 but close to leveling up, and even with the severe leveling penalties of vampires, Greg may have managed to level to 15.

GW
It's still Durkon's hit die, though he won't be casting any 8th-level spells with it as a living man. He'd lose it and go back to level 14 (instead of level 13 if his vampire had 14 hit dice) on being resurrected.

[unbeliever536]

It's still Durkon's hit die, though he won't be casting any 8th-level spells with it as a living man. He'd lose it and go back to level 14 (instead of level 13 if his vampire had 14 hit dice) on being resurrected.

I don't think that's clear from the comic, and the opposite (Greg essentially being a "fork" of Durkon with the template applied) is not in violation of the rules. I think the most likely scenario is that Durkon leveled some time during Pyramid Day, but we can't rule out the possibility that he didn't.

[D.One]

I don't think that's clear from the comic, and the opposite (Greg essentially being a "fork" of Durkon with the template applied) is not in violation of the rules. I think the most likely scenario is that Durkon leveled some time during Pyramid Day, but we can't rule out the possibility that he didn't.

We don't have proof of either theory, and this is mostly philosophical, but I'd divide the character Durkon in two "fronts", the stats and the control.

The stats are his body, with his abilities, class, race, vampire template, level, etc... They are one single set, that is now under control of Greg/Durkon*.

The control is who controls the stats. Durkon (the PC, controled by a player) is out of control, as Greg (an NPC, controled by the DM) has taken over.

But the stats pass on from one to the other, as this is the game mechanics for templates.

[oonker]

Err... I believe the point might have been that Durkon might have been, say, level14 but close to leveling up, and even with the severe leveling penalties of vampires, Greg may have managed to level to 15.

GW

Well, he did face Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, which are all very high level, and Durkula also faced Roy and overcame his challenge rating of 14. It would give him substantial XP, even with the massive level adjustment.

[Vendanna]

Well, he did face Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, which are all very high level, and Durkula also faced Roy and overcame his challenge rating of 14. It would give him substantial XP, even with the massive level adjustment.

He also sent spiky against the "sand elemental"? dunno if that counts as participating to gain xp too.

[Reboot]

Wait, doesn't the LA mean that, for Durkula to go from L14-at-vamping to L15, he would need the same XP that would have taken an unvamped Durkon to L22?

Either I'm missing something fundamental on how LA works (possible), or that is more-or-less impossible, surely? [Especially since most of those "challenges" were also faced by the OotS, and *they're* not all Suddenly Epic! Just before the Godsmoot, Roy was even explicitly just back at the same level he was pre-443!]

[Quartz]

Either I'm missing something fundamental on how LA works (possible), or that is more-or-less impossible, surely?

Why impossible? Xykon is at least level 21 - and likely level 27 or so - and has a LA for being a lich and has been getting XP from Serini's dungeons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, doesn't the LA mean that, for Durkula to go from L14-at-vamping to L15, he would need the same XP that would have taken an unvamped Durkon to L22?

If I am not mistaken (and I might be, this is hardly my area of expertise), he still needs to get to the same level 15 XP total. The problem is that when assigning XP from a fight, he is considered level 22 for the purposes of determining how difficult the fight was. When you fight weaker enemies than you, the amount of XP they give you is reduced (and can be reduced to 0, as when Belkar went on a mook-killing spree during the battle of Azure city).

GW

[Douglas]

I don't remember exactly where this rule is from, but as I recall the rules for acquiring a template during play would work like this:
Durkon is level 14.
Durkon acquires Vampire template, becoming Greg.
Greg is level 14 with LA +8, and is therefore ECL 22.
Greg still has merely level 14 XP.
To advance to level 15, Greg must reach ECL 23 XP total.
Therefore, for Greg to advance a single level, he must earn all the XP required to go from level 14 to level 23, enough to level up 9 times if the template were not in play. And his XP earned from combat is calculated with his ECL of 22.

This would require an absurdly huge amount of XP gain, far beyond anything possible by normal rules without Greg having an enormous sequence of off-panel adventures that he hasn't had time for.

The only explanations that seem reasonable to me are:
a) The comic isn't following the rules in this detail, or
b) Durkon leveled up with the XP from the Linear Guild fight.

[Jasdoif]

If I am not mistaken (and I might be, this is hardly my area of expertise), he still needs to get to the same level 15 XP total. The problem is that when assigning XP from a fight, he is considered level 22 for the purposes of determining how difficult the fight was. When you fight weaker enemies than you, the amount of XP they give you is reduced (and can be reduced to 0, as when Belkar went on a mook-killing spree during the battle of Azure city).I had to look for the reference myself (it's on page 172-173 of my DMG), but the XP total includes ECL. A bugbear rogue 2 and a halfing rogue 6 are both ECL 6 and both need a minimum XP total of 15,000; even though the bugbear has three racial hit dice and a +1 level adjustment, while the halfing is all class levels.

[D.One]

b) Durkon leveled up with the XP from the Linear Guild fight.

I find this one quite reasonable. Durkon might have attained level 15 after the battles in the Pyramid, but prior to vampirization. Remember: we have evidence of Haley and V reaching 15th level long before the pyramid, so it's not unreasonable for Durkon to have achieved15th level after defeating Linear Guild in the Holy Word Battle. If he did level at that time, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to rest and prepare his new 8th level spells, thus we never see unvampire Durkon casting them.

[wingedcatgirl]

Symbol of Death costs 5000 GP of "powdered diamond and opal". Should that be taken out of the 10k diamond dust Greg had already?

[Emanick]

Symbol of Death costs 5000 GP of "powdered diamond and opal". Should that be taken out of the 10k diamond dust Greg had already?

Probably not. We have no idea how much of the 5k in value comes from diamonds. But we could change it to "5,000 - 10,000 GP of diamond dust."

[D.One]

Probably not. We have no idea how much of the 5k in value comes from diamonds. But we could change it to "5,000 - 10,000 GP of diamond dust."

I really think that, if they manage to save all the dwarves of the world from damnation under Hel, arranging some diamond dust to bring back their dwarven friend will not be a problem. :smallwink:

[zimmerwald1915]

Hilgya has death ward and restoration prepared.

[5a Violista]

and has a wand of Protection from Law.

[Chronos]

Also of note: Roy says that casting Protection from Law on him would give him a splitting headache, because he's Lawful. There's nothing in the standard rules that suggests this, but it might give some insight on the discomfort Belkar experiences whenever he uses his Protection from Evil item: That is, it might be the same effect, something that happens whenever Protection from <X> is cast on an <X>, not a property of that item specifically.

[RickDaily12]

DAMMIT RICH. STOP TELLING US THE VAMPIRES ARE SPAWN WHEN HILGYA HAS ENOUGH CHARACTER LEVELS TO DESTROY THEM. D:

Okay. As per 1110, are we ignoring the WoG that Hilgya is both Level 13+ and turned Vampire spawn? Do we still assert that they were Vampires? We would be ignoring the Spawn text from Greg.

Or, shall we go with some other guess, like Loki's clerics turning Undead as a lower Cleric level than a Positive-Energy channeling cleric?

[Runeclaw]

I'd assume that Durkon* was using 'spawn' in a generic, rather than mechanical, sense, in much the same way that Miko was a Samurai.

[dmc91356]

My read was that he was using "spawn" not in the D&D vampire sense, but in the sense of children (like Malack talked about his children that Nale killed, only with a complete lack of caring).

A random Google search on spawn turned up: "Technically, the mass of small eggs laid by animals like fish, frogs, mollusks is called spawn. But the word has been borrowed to mean offspring, or the act of making them in general."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, Durkon* could be trying to understate their CR to lull Roy into less than full effort.

[D.One]

My read was that he was using "spawn" not in the D&D vampire sense, but in the sense of children (like Malack talked about his children that Nale killed, only with a complete lack of caring).

A random Google search on spawn turned up: "Technically, the mass of small eggs laid by animals like fish, frogs, mollusks is called spawn. But the word has been borrowed to mean offspring, or the act of making them in general."

I've also read it this way. "spawn" in a sense he spawned them, not the Vampire Spawn creature.

I believe present situation doesn't cope well with a scene where one of the other vampires interrupts Durkon* and says

"Master, technically, they were not Vampire Spawns, but regular Vampires..."

just to be destroyed while Durkon* says

"Not the point! You ruined my gloating and taunting!"

[Mithrandir]

Why are we saying that Hilgya's level is 11? Hilgya can cast Greater Scrying, which is a level 7 cleric spell. She should be 13 at least.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why are we saying that Hilgya's level is 11? Hilgya can cast Greater Scrying, which is a level 7 cleric spell. She should be 13 at least.
Because the OP was last updated before strip 1109 came out?

[Mithrandir]

Because the OP was last updated before strip 1109 came out?

Oh. But then it would still have been wrong. Because Hilgya only had the vampires flee. She didn't destroy any.

So based off 1109, if they were Vampire Spawn, then Hilgya would have only been level 7. Because if she was level 8 or higher she would have destroyed any 4 HD vampire spawn she turned.

Obviously, since we know she is at least level 13, we know those 4 vampires she turned have at least 7 HD each.

[Aquillion]

DAMMIT RICH. STOP TELLING US THE VAMPIRES ARE SPAWN WHEN HILGYA HAS ENOUGH CHARACTER LEVELS TO DESTROY THEM. D:

Okay. As per 1110, are we ignoring the WoG that Hilgya is both Level 13+ and turned Vampire spawn? Do we still assert that they were Vampires? We would be ignoring the Spawn text from Greg.

Or, shall we go with some other guess, like Loki's clerics turning Undead as a lower Cleric level than a Positive-Energy channeling cleric?Outside of the Azure Guard throne room battle (which was unique in a lot of ways), have we seen any undead get destroyed by turning? It's possible that, for physical undead, Rich has turning always repel instead of destroying them, for the same reason he never has Paladins cast spells - it simplifies things, since to a non-D&D-expert viewer it would be strange to have turning do a bunch of different stuff.

[zimmerwald1915]

Outside of the Azure Guard throne room battle (which was unique in a lot of ways), have we seen any undead get destroyed by turning? It's possible that, for physical undead, Rich has turning always repel instead of destroying them, for the same reason he never has Paladins cast spells - it simplifies things, since to a non-D&D-expert viewer it would be strange to have turning do a bunch of different stuff.
No, but then, all the other times we've seen turning up to now it's been by low or mid-level characters: the ones I remember are early strip Durkon and Thanh.

Come to think of it, Durkon hasn't actually fought any undead since the Battle of Azure City, with the exception of Malack.

[D.One]

Oh. But then it would still have been wrong. Because Hilgya only had the vampires flee. She didn't destroy any.

So based off 1109, if they were Vampire Spawn, then Hilgya would have only been level 7. Because if she was level 8 or higher she would have destroyed any 4 HD vampire spawn she turned.

Obviously, since we know she is at least level 13, we know those 4 vampires she turned have at least 7 HD each.

In fact, since Vampire Spawns have +2 turn resistance, they are treated as 6 HD creatures for all effects of turning. Hence, the previous assumption of 11th level, because she would destroy them had she been 12+ if they were Spawns (which are creatures with 4 HD)

Full-fledged Vampires have +4 turn resistance, and their HD varies, but the minimum is always 5, since creatures with 4 or less HD are transformed into Vampire Spawns. Thus, the minimum effective HD of a Vampire agains turning is 9, and a cleric of 18th level would be needed to destroy with his Turn Undead a 5 HD Vampire.

[unbeliever536]

Outside of the Azure Guard throne room battle (which was unique in a lot of ways), have we seen any undead get destroyed by turning? It's possible that, for physical undead, Rich has turning always repel instead of destroying them, for the same reason he never has Paladins cast spells - it simplifies things, since to a non-D&D-expert viewer it would be strange to have turning do a bunch of different stuff.

But Paladins do cast spells in OOTS. Lien mentions her ability to Create Water, and iirc Miko casts a couple of Cures during her time with the party.

[D.One]

But Paladins do cast spells in OOTS. Lien mentions her ability to Create Water, and iirc Miko casts a couple of Cures during her time with the party.

Rich speaks about Miko using Cure Light Wounds after the off-panel battle with the OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?6495-Order-of-the-Stick-November-II/page17&p=291639#post291639).

[Mithrandir]

In fact, since Vampire Spawns have +2 turn resistance, they are treated as 6 HD creatures for all effects of turning. Hence, the previous assumption of 11th level, because she would destroy them had she been 12+ if they were Spawns (which are creatures with 4 HD)

Full-fledged Vampires have +4 turn resistance, and their HD varies, but the minimum is always 5, since creatures with 4 or less HD are transformed into Vampire Spawns. Thus, the minimum effective HD of a Vampire agains turning is 9, and a cleric of 18th level would be needed to destroy with his Turn Undead a 5 HD Vampire.

Ah, thank you for the correction.

So knowing that she is at least 13th level, we know they were not vampire spawns, but full out vampires. So if those 4 vampires had the bare minimum of 5 hd each, then they would count as 9 hd each. So Hilgya turned at least 36 HD worth of vampires.

So even with rolling a 12 for the roll, and adding in her minimum caster level, that is only 25. So that is a combination 9 points to go between her charisma and character level. Plus any turning feats she might have.

[D.One]

Ah, thank you for the correction.

So knowing that she is at least 13th level, we know they were not vampire spawns, but full out vampires. So if those 4 vampires had the bare minimum of 5 hd each, then they would count as 9 hd each. So Hilgya turned at least 36 HD worth of vampires.

So even with rolling a 12 for the roll, and adding in her minimum caster level, that is only 25. So that is a combination 9 points to go between her charisma and character level. Plus any turning feats she might have.

Indeed. The math is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22739665&postcount=67)

[Chronos]

It's probably simpler to assume that they're spawns and that she has a prestige class, than to assume that they're full vampires and she has enough turning mojo to turn all of them. A prestige class would advance her spellcasting, so she could still do the Greater Scrying, but probably would not advance her Turn Undead, so she wouldn't destroy the spawns.

On the other hand...
At least two of the three Night Shift clerics are 5th level, because they cast Daylight and Searing Light. And they clearly regarded the clerics who took a stand outside the door as more powerful than them. So there should have been at least a few corpses out there of greater than 5th level for not-Durkon to work with. And he was fighting them with the clear intention of vampirizing them, so he would have bloodsucked them to death instead of killing them via energy drain. So at least some of those should be full vampires.

[Techwarrior]

Do we have a reason for Roy not needing the PfL?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Do we have a reason for Roy not needing the PfL?

He's already mind-blanked. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1104.html)

GW

[LuisDantas]

My read was that he was using "spawn" not in the D&D vampire sense, but in the sense of children (like Malack talked about his children that Nale killed, only with a complete lack of caring).

That is my take as well. And that despite my having read this thread (and its predecessor) recently.

[D.One]

It's probably simpler to assume that they're spawns and that she has a prestige class, than to assume that they're full vampires and she has enough turning mojo to turn all of them. A prestige class would advance her spellcasting, so she could still do the Greater Scrying, but probably would not advance her Turn Undead, so she wouldn't destroy the spawns.

On the other hand...
At least two of the three Night Shift clerics are 5th level, because they cast Daylight and Searing Light. And they clearly regarded the clerics who took a stand outside the door as more powerful than them. So there should have been at least a few corpses out there of greater than 5th level for not-Durkon to work with. And he was fighting them with the clear intention of vampirizing them, so he would have bloodsucked them to death instead of killing them via energy drain. So at least some of those should be full vampires.

Maybe we can assume some were Spawns and some were full Vampires, and the Spawns are among the ones killed by the Order. It makes sense, since it would be "in character" for Vampires to let the Spawns (Pawns?) take the frontline and receive the first attacks...

[Ephemera]

Maybe we can assume some were Spawns and some were full Vampires, and the Spawns are among the ones killed by the Order. It makes sense, since it would be "in character" for Vampires to let the Spawns (Pawns?) take the frontline and receive the first attacks...

For the purposes of this thread, I’m pretty sure we’re only discussing the ones that Hilgya turned—we don’t yet have enough evidence one way or another about the others to draw any conclusions as to their type.

[zimmerwald1915]

For the purposes of this thread, I’m pretty sure we’re only discussing the ones that Hilgya turned—we don’t yet have enough evidence one way or another about the others to draw any conclusions as to their type.
We can definitively say that Brother Sandstone was a full vampire and not a spawn, but that observation is of limited use when discussing the vampires who escaped (among whom he was just as definitively not).

[unbeliever536]

We can definitively say that Brother Sandstone was a full vampire and not a spawn, but that observation is of limited use when discussing the vampires who escaped (among whom he was just as definitively not).

And as to the four that Hilgya turned (of whom three escaped), if Hilgya's (for-turning-purposes-effective) cleric level is greater than 11, they must also be full vampires in the absence of some means to raise their effective HD beyond their normal Turn Resistance.

[martianmister]

I assume that everyone vampirized are full vampires unless stated otherwise.

[danielxcutter]

Speaking of Brother Sandstone, he must have had 9+ levels in Cleric to cast Flame Strike. Any info we can glean from that?

[D.One]

And as to the four that Hilgya turned (of whom three escaped), if Hilgya's (for-turning-purposes-effective) cleric level is greater than 11, they must also be full vampires in the absence of some means to raise their effective HD beyond their normal Turn Resistance.

Which brings me to a question I never thought about before:

Is there any feat that increases Turning Resistance?

[Chronos]

If there is, it wouldn't help, because these vampires couldn't ever have had a chance to take it. Such a feat would require undead type, which they didn't have before they got vamped, and they haven't leveled up or otherwise had an opportunity to gain feats after.

[zimmerwald1915]

I assume that everyone vampirized are full vampires unless stated otherwise.
That's exactly the trouble. We do have a statement otherwise: Durkon's use of "spawn."

[zimmerwald1915]

And as to the four that Hilgya turned (of whom three escaped), if Hilgya's (for-turning-purposes-effective) cleric level is greater than 11, they must also be full vampires in the absence of some means to raise their effective HD beyond their normal Turn Resistance.
I'm rapidly coming around to the idea that Hilgya has a not-yet-revealed prestige class that doesn't advance turning - or conversely, a not-yet-revealed prestige class that grants turning using her prestige class level as her level for turning purposes even if her alignment might not permit her to turn. Which is not to say such a thing should be listed now. But I won't be surprised if it is revealed in the future. Not with Elan's comment about prestige classes and Veldrina's use of an obscure [albeit base] divine class.

[Douglas]

That's exactly the trouble. We do have a statement otherwise: Durkon's use of "spawn."
Ah, but the word has a clearly applicable English meaning separate from the monster type name, and it's ambiguous which one he meant.

[unbeliever536]

Speaking of Brother Sandstone, he must have had 9+ levels in Cleric to cast Flame Strike. Any info we can glean from that?

Well, it does mean that he could have bolstered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) a group of vampire spawn a bit, as just occurred to me. Bolstering lasts only a minute, so this is timing dependent, but he may have just been repeatedly bolstering everybody for the last half hour or more.

A thing I'm not sure of: whether Brother Sandstone bolsters if his max HD result is at least 5, with the spawn retaining their Turn Resistance, or if he simply needs a 7 or better.

[hroþila]

Well, #1111 seems to suggest they are spawn in the strict mechanical sense. Interesting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, #1111 seems to suggest they are spawn in the strict mechanical sense. Interesting.

I think we need to start considering prestige classes that improves her casting but not her turning. How low a cleric would she have to be to not destroy spawns?

GW

[Stabbey]

With the clear reference to spawn, I am also thinking that Hilgaya turns vampires at a lower level than her cleric level. My gut is saying that's because of the same alleged house-rule applied to Loki's priests that allows them to turn in the first place. But that's not good enough for evidence.

[Jasdoif]

How low a cleric would she have to be to not destroy spawns?Vampire spawn have 4HD and +2 turn resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireSpawn), so they're treated as 6HD when resolving turn attempts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#turnResistance). If a cleric has at least twice as many levels as the undead have hit dice (12), the undead would be destroyed rather than turned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#destroyingUndead); so Hilgya would have to turn as an 11th-level cleric at most to turn vampire spawn rather than destroy them.

[unbeliever536]

I think we need to start considering prestige classes that improves her casting but not her turning. How low a cleric would she have to be to not destroy spawns?

GW

No. No we do not. Sandstone was perfectly capable of Bolstering the vampire spawn to an effective hit dice between 6 and 9.

[SavageWombat]

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya poses (as of this strip.) So, due to my tendency to give Rich all the credit for brilliance - I think D. has made the same calculations the thread did, and concluded the same way - implying that Hilgya's power level is deliberately deceptive. Either on her level or Rich's meta-level.

[Aquillion]

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya poses (as of this strip.) So, due to my tendency to give Rich all the credit for brilliance - I think D. has made the same calculations the thread did, and concluded the same way - implying that Hilgya's power level is deliberately deceptive. Either on her level or Rich's meta-level.It does seem like a plot point that her turning gave the HPOH the mistaken impression that she was weaker than she really is. A PRC that advances casting but not turning seems like the most logical conclusion here.

[RickDaily12]

No. No we do not. Sandstone was perfectly capable of Bolstering the vampire spawn to an effective hit dice between 6 and 9.

Why would he have done this? Durkon* has told his underlings over and over not to expect heavy duty cleric assistance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) Just look at him completely downplay how much of a threat Minrah is.

EDIT: Also, this couldn't have been possible. Just count the rounds between strips 1100 and 1105. Bolstering undead only lasts for 10 rounds, and dropping prone is a move action. So 9 rounds between here and Hilgya turning Undead? Probably no.

Now, with this being said. I wonder if we can impose some kind of baseline deduction of Minrah's level. Durkon* isn't concerned when multiple spawn warn him of a successful Turn result against them, when he assumes Minrah was the one who did this.

Three spawn are warning him of this, which gives the group 18 HD to work with. Due to racial penalty, Dwarven Clerics have a maximum CHA of 16 (+3 MOD) until level 4. For Durkon* to reasonably believe Minrah can pose no threat to his group, yet still turn 3 vampire spawns, does she not have to be a minimum level 3?

At Level 3, with a CHA Mod of +3, she needed to have rolled at least 16 on the Turning check, which is decent, but maxing out on a roll of 12 is required with the d6s for Turning Damage.

I'm not sure we can extrapolate her level further. That seems like the bare minimum to me...


I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya Minrah poses (as of this strip.) So, due to my tendency to give Rich all the credit for brilliance - I think D. has made the same calculations the thread did, and concluded the same way - implying that Hilgya's power level is deliberately deceptive. Either on her level or Rich's meta-level.
EDIT: Fixed this for you. Durkon* knows that Hilgya is a cleric of Loki.

When told by his spawn that the priestess had "fair skin, yellow hair and heavy armor", his reply was "Oh, you mean one of the lesser priestesses of Thor." It's pretty obvious that he's completely unaware of Hilgya's existence, which is why they try to clarify who it was they meant- only for him to ignore and talk over them.

[unbeliever536]

Why would he have done this? Durkon* has told his underlings over and over not to expect heavy duty cleric assistance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) Just look at him completely downplay how much of a threat Minrah is.


Why not? As long as he can do it without breaking the ruse, it's not like he's doing anything else with his turn attempts.



EDIT: Also, this couldn't have been possible. Just count the rounds between strips 1100 and 1105. Bolstering undead only lasts for 10 rounds, and dropping prone is a move action. So 9 rounds between here and Hilgya turning Undead? Probably no.



Round 1: #1100.
Round 2: most of #1101 (this can really be combined with the 1100 round, but I'll separate it to maximize the time).
Round 3: last panel of #1101, #1102.
Round 4: #1103.
Round 5: #1104.
Round 6: page 1 of #1105, roughly to Sandstone's death (note that bolstering would outlast Sandstone's destruction, so that's not an issue).
Round 7: Turn Undead (and V's Magic Missile).

Fits with room to spare. All Sandstone has to do is succeed on a listen check for the in-temple planning. There's no reason you can't Bolster Undead prone, and it's a standard action anyway, so he can drop in the same round if there's some weird rule that says you have to be standing to use a Turn/Rebuke Undead charge.

ed: As far as Minrah is concerned, Greg knows virtually nothing about her. Probably the only thing that registered from that encounter is "cleric was not strong enough to Destroy vampire spawn". And we already have a minimum cleric level of 5 for her based on the earlier Sunburst Searing Light.

[Quild]

Vampire spawn have 4HD and +2 turn resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireSpawn), so they're treated as 6HD when resolving turn attempts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#turnResistance). If a cleric has at least twice as many levels as the undead have hit dice (12), the undead would be destroyed rather than turned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#destroyingUndead); so Hilgya would have to turn as an 11th-level cleric at most to turn vampire spawn rather than destroy them.

She did cast Greater Scrying, though.
Maybe she's evil after all and using à Magic item to turn undeads?

[Chronos]

She did cast Greater Scrying, though.
Yes, hence the discussion of her having a prestige class, or otherwise having a turning level that's lower than her spellcasting level.

Or the undead possibly being bolstered.

Should we also consider the possibility of the area being consecrated/desecrated/hallowed/unhallowed? On the one hand, the temple itself is probably under a Hallow spell, but the tunnels leading to it might or might not be. On the other hand, assuming that the tunnels aren't Hallowed, one of the vampire clerics could very easily have cast a Desecrate spell, or a few of them, on the area where they were springing the ambush. On the gripping hand, though, those spells just give a bonus/penalty to turning checks, and don't affect the undeads' HD, so shouldn't change whether a turned undead should instead be destroyed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She did cast Greater Scrying, though.
Maybe she's evil after all and using à Magic item to turn undeads?

She definitely used "Turn Undead" as a sentence (Kudzu learnt it from her), so an item seems unlikely. I mean, maybe she calls it out unnecessarily as she uses it, but it seems more parsimonious to assume she does have the ability.

Re: bolster undead: there is only so many times the undead priests could have used bolster undead. Using one every minute "just in case" means that they'd have run out long before needed. Therefore, with a duration of one minute, it's not the kind of ability they'd be spamming.

GW

[Reboot]

Also, Sandstone could have used up his turning attempts for the day before he was killed.

[SavageWombat]

For purposes of random speculation, what PrCs can someone turn up that fit the "no turning advancement" requirement, preferably that make sense for Hilgya from a story point? Saying "Rich made one up for her" doesn't give us much to do.

[Chronos]

PrCs that advance cleric spellcasting but not turning are too numerous to be worth listing, even if we further narrow the list to those available to a chaotic nongood character. Especially since this isn't an optimization discussion, so we can't just throw away the ones with less-than-full casting progression.

[unbeliever536]

She definitely used "Turn Undead" as a sentence (Kudzu learnt it from her), so an item seems unlikely. I mean, maybe she calls it out unnecessarily as she uses it, but it seems more parsimonious to assume she does have the ability.

Re: bolster undead: there is only so many times the undead priests could have used bolster undead. Using one every minute "just in case" means that they'd have run out long before needed. Therefore, with a duration of one minute, it's not the kind of ability they'd be spamming.

GW

I'm not suggesting Sandstone was spamming it, just that he heard the OOTS coming and used the ability, essentially paralleling the Mass Resist Fire bit.

[Ephemera]

FWIW I don’t think the plot point is necessarily that Greg drew conclusions from the non-destruction of the spawn. It seems to me more likely that he has pretty solid intel on all of the outstanding clerics of Thor, given that he vamped a bunch of them, and that none of gh are high enough level to matter to him.

I don’t think it really makes sense that Hilgya turned using a magic item—it would have made a lot more sense for her to rebuke/command if she had it at a higher level (plus the whole “Loki hates undead” bit). Unless someone comes up with a non-convoluted alternate explanation, I think you can count me among the crew who are sold on the evidence for Hilgya having levels in a prestige class of some kind. I kinda doubt we find out what it is, but who knows—she’s probably around for the resolution of this arc with Durkon at least. I’m headcannoning for now that she has a home brew involving protecting her baby and receiving bonuses while she’s carrying him. :)

[dps]

I'm thinking about how the plot is dependent on Durkula not recognizing the threat that Hilgya poses (as of this strip.)

He's not even aware of her presence. Based on their description of her, he thinks that it was Minrah that turned the spawns, and cut them off and walked away when they tried to tell him that there was another cleric there.

And FWIW, I do consider all the undead created by the HPOH to be spawns unless we have a good reason to think otherwise about an individual undead. Which doesn't help explain how Hilgya turned them without destroying them, but then again, there are problems with the opposite assumption, as well.

[Ephemera]

And FWIW, I do consider all the undead created by the HPOH to be spawns unless we have a good reason to think otherwise about an individual undead. Which doesn't help explain how Hilgya turned them without destroying them, but then again, there are problems with the opposite assumption, as well.

I think that Greg’s statement about “you spawn...the rest of us” is clear enough for this thread to conclude both that tie turned vampires were spawn and also that at least some of the remaining vamps besides Greg are not. The latter isn’t news, but the former clears up the possibility that “spawn” was being being used in a way different from the D&D mechanical sense, IMO.

Which is to say that I agree, we’re now down to explaining how Hilgya turned spawn without destroying them.

[Hecuba]

Which is to say that I agree, we’re now down to explaining how Hilgya turned spawn without destroying them.

Seconded. (?Fourth-ed? Eighth-ed? Whatever).

That leaves us with a limited set of options:

The spawn in question are unusually hard to turn because:
Bolstered off-screen (seems contrived - that combat did not seem heavily abstracted)
They just happen to have the ITR Feat from LM (also seems contrived)
The area outside of the temple of Thor happens to be an unholy site (even more contrived)
Something I've missed?
Hilga's effective cleric level is 11 or lower because:
She's multi-classed in a PRC that does not advance turning but does advance spell-casting, since Greater Scrying requires Cleric 13
She's multi-classed in a base class or PRC with an entirely ability allocation that is giving her access to Greater Scrying independent of her cleric casting (Not quite as contrived as c above, but close)
Something I've missed?

Theoretically, item (2)(a) could put her effective cleric level as low as 2 (though it would require a Charisma Modifier of +10 and a perfect roll). That's probably not worth noting though.

Unless someone does have something to slot into the "Something I've missed" slots above, the conclusion would seem to that Hilgya's level is:

Cleric of Loki ≤ 11, Unspecified PRC* 2+; total level 13+ (minimum require to cast Greater Scrying as a Cleric)
*The PRC must advance casting but not turning

[Ephemera]

Seconded. (?Fourth-ed? Eighth-ed? Whatever).

That leaves us with a limited set of options:

The spawn in question are unusually hard to turn because:
Bolstered off-screen (seems contrived - that combat did not seem heavily abstracted)
They just happen to have the ITR Feat from LM (also seems contrived)
The area outside of the temple of Thor happens to be an unholy site (even more contrived)
Something I've missed?
Hilga's effective cleric level is 11 or lower because:
She's multi-classed in a PRC that does not advance turning but does advance spell-casting, since Greater Scrying requires Cleric 13
She's multi-classed in a base class or PRC with an entirely ability allocation that is giving her access to Greater Scrying independent of her cleric casting (Not quite as contrived as c above, but close)
Something I've missed?

Theoretically, item (2)(a) could put her effective cleric level as low as 2 (though it would require a Charisma Modifier of +10 and a perfect roll). That's probably not worth noting though.

Unless someone does have something to slot into the "Something I've missed" slots above, the conclusion would seem to that Hilgya's level is:

Cleric of Loki ≤ 11, Unspecified PRC* 2+; total level 13+ (minimum require to cast Greater Scrying as a Cleric)
*The PRC must advance casting but not turning

I'm liking this. We probably want to hold off for a few strips, since we're exceedingly likely to see Hilgya in combat soon and may find out more information.

I'd add that if 1b or 1c were in effect, Greg probably would have known and been more concerned about them having been turned. Technically, I guess, your list of possibilities might include the mechanism by which she turns and doesn't rebuke in the first place also lowering her effective turning level, but I'd class this as also needlessly complicated (I'd say it's not entirely implausible in the abstract but that for the purposes of this thread it's outside of what we should consider without some further evidence in support).

[5a Violista]

I don't think Brother Sandstone Bolstering the escapees is possible.
(1) Forcecage grants cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm).
(2) Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead (etc) can't be used (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#destroyingUndead) on those with total cover relative to you.
(3) At least one (and likely all) of the vampires who escaped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html) are located on the direct opposite corner of the forcecage relative to Brother Sandstone, with the entire forcecage in the way.
Thus, those who escaped had "total cover" from Brother Sandstone, meaning he couldn't have used Bolster Undead on them. Several turns pass by while they're inside the forcecage, so if they had been bolstered beforehand, it would have worn off.

Possible Counterargument: On strip 1104, Brother Sandstone moves relative to the forcecage such that he has line of sight on the vampires who escaped.
Of course, during that panel, we see him casting Mass Fire Resist. The next panel, he's back up next to the forcecage, taunting Roy. And the previous time we see him is the page before, when he's using his gaze attack on Minrah (again, in the exact same position next to the forcecage, with those who escaped having "total cover" for the purposes of Rebuke Undead. In fact, every time he uses an action, the panel focuses on him and show where he is relative to everything and he telegraphs his actions). If he used Bolster Undead, it would have had to been before the forcecage. However, that would've taken about 10 rounds (if you assume that "having conversations and taunting your opponents are free actions").

[unbeliever536]

I agree that Sandstone did not bolster during the confrontation we saw. There is enough time for him to have done so immediately before the OotS left the tenple, though, as part of his preparations for the immenent ambush. As to why, as a vampire made from the late actual Sandstone, he likely knew that Minrah would be available to join the OotS. Bolstering the spawn would make her almost completely irrelevant to the combat. (Note that Greg believes Minrah is capable of turning a couple of unaugmented spawn).

[hroþila]

I agree that Sandstone did not bolster during the confrontation we saw. There is enough time for him to have done so immediately before the OotS left the tenple, though, as part of his preparations for the immenent ambush. As to why, as a vampire made from the late actual Sandstone, he likely knew that Minrah would be available to join the OotS. Bolstering the spawn would make her almost completely irrelevant to the combat. (Note that Greg believes Minrah is capable of turning a couple of unaugmented spawn).
Bolstering only lasts for a minute, so Sandstone couldn't really have done it before the start of the confrontation. Theoretically he could have done it off-panel, for example between #1104 and #1105, but that doesn't sound very likely, and personally I have no idea whether that would check out, mechanically, if one assumes Sandstone bolstered all of them (or at least all the spawn).

[dps]

I'm liking this. We probably want to hold off for a few strips, since we're exceedingly likely to see Hilgya in combat soon and may find out more information.

I'd add that if 1b or 1c were in effect, Greg probably would have known and been more concerned about them having been turned. Technically, I guess, your list of possibilities might include the mechanism by which she turns and doesn't rebuke in the first place also lowering her effective turning level, but I'd class this as also needlessly complicated (I'd say it's not entirely implausible in the abstract but that for the purposes of this thread it's outside of what we should consider without some further evidence in support).

I don't see how 1c being in effect makes any sense logically. I mean, I see how it could possibly explain what we've seen happen, but I don't see why the area right outside Thor's Temple would be unholy.

[Jack Frost]

About Durkon's domains, he's been seen casting "Thor's Lightning", which I assume is some sort of Lightning Bolt. There is no such spell in the cleric spell list, and it would be logical to think Thor has something like "Weather" or "Lightning" domain (the closest thing is Weather domain of Thor on Gods & Demigods, but it's not this same Thor... he's Chaotic Good in that book).

[unbeliever536]

Bolstering only lasts for a minute, so Sandstone couldn't really have done it before the start of the confrontation. Theoretically he could have done it off-panel, for example between #1104 and #1105, but that doesn't sound very likely, and personally I have no idea whether that would check out, mechanically, if one assumes Sandstone bolstered all of them (or at least all the spawn).



Round 1: #1100.
Round 2: most of #1101 (this can really be combined with the 1100 round, but I'll separate it to maximize the time).
Round 3: last panel of #1101, #1102.
Round 4: #1103.
Round 5: #1104.
Round 6: page 1 of #1105, roughly to Sandstone's death (note that bolstering would outlast Sandstone's destruction, so that's not an issue).
Round 7: Turn Undead (and V's Magic Missile).

Fits with room to spare. All Sandstone has to do is succeed on a listen check for the in-temple planning. There's no reason you can't Bolster Undead prone, and it's a standard action anyway, so he can drop in the same round if there's some weird rule that says you have to be standing to use a Turn/Rebuke Undead charge.


Sandstone totally has time to bolster as long as he hears the OotS coming within three (possibly four) rounds of V opening the door.

[hroþila]

Sandstone totally has time to bolster as long as he hears the OotS coming within three (possibly four) rounds of V opening the door.
In my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that so little time passed before they dropped the Forcecage, or in #1100-1101 for that matter, but I admit this is subjective.

[Quartz]

I wondered if Hilgya as a pure cleric got a minimum or very low result on her Turn check and the spawn simply failed a morale check. So I ran the numbers. Even if she rolled a 0 or lower for a max HD of 9 she'd still Turn the spawn and she would Turn a minimum of 11 HD at Cha 3 (Min (2d6) + 13 - 4) so she would still destroy at least two.

[Quartz]

A question: after receiving a Restoration from Hilgya, can V now re-memorise the spell slots she lost?

[zimmerwald1915]

A question: after receiving a Restoration from Hilgya, can V now re-memorise the spell slots she lost?
No. The spell slot is treated as if it had the spell cast out of it, not as though it never had a spell prepared in it. V would have to rest for 8 hours to prepare spells in it.

[Hecuba]

I wondered if Hilgya as a pure cleric got a minimum or very low result on her Turn check and the spawn simply failed a morale check. So I ran the numbers. Even if she rolled a 0 or lower for a max HD of 9 she'd still Turn the spawn and she would Turn a minimum of 11 HD at Cha 3 (Min (2d6) + 13 - 4) so she would still destroy at least two.

Vampire Spawn have an effective HD of 6 (4 HD + 2 Turn Resistance), not 9. 9 is the minimum effective HD of an actual Vampire (5 HD + 4 Turn Resistance).
Also we know she turned 4 targets (we see them fleeing from the turning attempt).

And turning vs destroying is a function of Cleric level, not the check: if your cleric level is twice the effective HD of the turned undead (or greater), they are turned rather than destroyed. That does not require a higher turning check or a higher turning damage.

If Hilgya is a pure cleric, she has to be at least level 13 to cast Greater Scrying. That would put her Cleric level as more than twice the effective HD of vampire spawn, which means she would destroy any affected spawn instead of turning them (setting aside the rather contrived options under #1 of last post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545476-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XV-What-s-the-Damage-of-a-Thrown-Pineapple&p=22796510#post22796510)).

We know that Hilgya turned at least some spawn without destroying them. Ergo, Hilgya turns as a cleric of level no greater than 11.

We can technically make some conclusions from the turning checks and turning damage, but it doesn't give anything particularly meaningful.
If we take all 4 undead we see her turn to be spawn, then:
The turning check indicates a minimum effective cleric level (for turning) of 2 - which allows turning a Vampire Spawn on a perfect roll. This would require 14+ Cha.
The turning damage must be at least 24 HD, which requires (Effective cleric level + Charisma Modifier) of at least 12 - again for a perfect roll. If we assume the maximum cleric level of 11, that gives as a minimum Cha of 12.
If we, for some reason, assume at least one of the turned undead was a vampire and the Durkula's comment about spawn applies only to the 2 in front of him
The turning check then instead indicates a minimum effective cleric level of 5.
The turning damage then instead indicates a minimum (Effective cleric level + Charisma Modifier) of 15. If we assume the maximum cleric level of 11, that gives us a minimum Cha of 18.

Of these, only the 18 Cha would be meaningful - and it requires to jump through hoops

[Quartz]

Vampire Spawn have an effective HD of 6 (4 HD + 2 Turn Resistance), not 9.

You've misread me. 9 HD (level -4) is the minimum result Hilga could get on the d20 roll for rolling 0 or less.

And I'll note that she casts two level 7 spells - Greater Scrying and Restoration, so do we know if either are her domain spells or does she have sufficient Wisdom to get a bonus 7th level spell?

[Hecuba]

You've misread me. 9 HD (level -4) is the minimum result Hilga could get on the d20 roll for rolling 0 or less.

Ahh, sorry. I think I follow now: a HoB morale check and none of them actually being turned is an interesting idea I had not considered. And I concur with your conclusion: even if we presume Cha of 1, the turning damage and affected HD would not match what was observed.


And I'll note that she casts two level 7 spells - Greater Scrying and Restoration, so do we know if either are her domain spells or does she have sufficient Wisdom to get a bonus 7th level spell?

One domain is Fire: the other does not appear to be attested. Also Restoration is 4 (unless I missed something indicating we're looking at Greater Restoration).

[Reboot]

And I'll note that she casts two level 7 spells - Greater Scrying and Restoration, so do we know if either are her domain spells or does she have sufficient Wisdom to get a bonus 7th level spell?
Notwithstanding the Restoration vs. Greater Restoration thing, it seems at least likely that she's L15, same as Durkon*.


One domain is Fire: the other does not appear to be attested.
Would anyone else be shocked if it's anything other than Chaos? Anarchic Water over (un)Holy Water, calling out Loki specifically as God of Flames and Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) and general demeanour. Might not be proof for the thread, but what are the odds?

[Hecuba]

Notwithstanding the Restoration vs. Greater Restoration thing, it seems at least likely that she's L15, same as Durkon*.


Would anyone else be shocked if it's anything other than Chaos? Anarchic Water over (un)Holy Water, calling out Loki specifically as God of Flames and Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) and general demeanour. Might not be proof for the thread, but what are the odds?

I certainly expect him to offer the domain. And I agree that her having it seems more likely that not. But shocked? Not really, as long as it's a domain like Trickery instead.

[unbeliever536]

In my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that so little time passed before they dropped the Forcecage, or in #1100-1101 for that matter, but I admit this is subjective.

For #1100-1101, just note that Sandstone's feet are still visible in panel 1 of #1101. V and Minrah essentially haven't moved from the end of Minrah's speech. In the next wide shot, Minrah's about to start walking and V took off. Then they move about the length of the party (look at the female dead dwarf who is near Belkar in the first wide shot, and by Minrah in the second), then the ambush happens.

As to the Forcecage ... why? #1102 is a single round. #1103 is either the same round continuing or one single additional round (the SRD is not clear on what sort of action, if any, the party would be taking by closing their eyes to avoid a gaze attack). #1104 shows most of another round, with V and Sandstone both casting spells. Then in #1105 the Forcecage drops. Unless you think there was a lot of offscreen time spent standing in the Forcecage between #1103 and #1104 or between #1104 and #1105, that's all the time there is while the spell is in play. And I find it pretty unlikely that the Order just stood around for a few rounds off panel, because the urgency of the situation is noted pretty much immediately in #1103.

[Quartz]

Notwithstanding the Restoration vs. Greater Restoration thing


Yes, it looks like V only requires Restoration, not Greater Restoration as the negative levels have not set.

[Sm3gl]

I wondered if Hilgya as a pure cleric got a minimum or very low result on her Turn check and the spawn simply failed a morale check. So I ran the numbers. Even if she rolled a 0 or lower for a max HD of 9 she'd still Turn the spawn and she would Turn a minimum of 11 HD at Cha 3 (Min (2d6) + 13 - 4) so she would still destroy at least two.

Given the numbers it seems likely or even provable that Hilgya must have some levels of a prestige class that grants bonus caster levels but no improvement to turn undead ability?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Given the numbers it seems likely or even provable that Hilgya must have some levels of a prestige class that grants bonus caster levels but no improvement to turn undead ability?

Almost. A bonus caster level wouldn't allow her to cast higher level spells. If she was a Cleric 11/ [PrC] 2 and the PrC only boosts Caster Level, then she'd still be restricted to 5th level and below spells. What we are really looking for is a Prestige Class that advances Divine casting while not progressing Turn Undead. Which frankly isn't much of a limiting factor. There are tons.

[Chronos]

Classes that advance caster level without advancing the rest of what you get from casting are uncommon enough that I generally take it as a given that when people say "class that advances caster level", they mean the latter.

[danielxcutter]

You know, about that "does Belkar have Two Weapon Pounce or Bounding Assult" thing... I don't suppose taking the Spirit Lion Totem ACF would be a possibility?

[Quartz]

You know, about that "does Belkar have Two Weapon Pounce or Bounding Assult" thing... I don't suppose taking the Spirit Lion Totem ACF would be a possibility?

I don't have the Complete Champion to hand so do you have the full text? A quick search indicates that that could be a good one, but I haven't found details. The SRD only lists Lion.

[Jasdoif]

I don't have the Complete Champion to hand so do you have the full text? A quick search indicates that that could be a good one, but I haven't found details. The SRD only lists Lion.At barbarian 1, you trade away fast movement to get the pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) ability; Allowing a full attack at the end of a charge.

[Quartz]

I think you're presenting a very good option there.

[D.One]

I don't see why Improved Turn Resistance, a feat, is being considered too contrived (or at least more contrived than an unknown Prestige Class).

First, if we assume the turned vampires are Spawn, they aren't templated creatures. They are monsters following a specific set of characteristics and with two feats to choose when created, one of which could easily be ITR.

Second, such combination woud give them effective hd 10 for turning, which means she should get at least 40 of turning damage to turn all four. For Hilgya to be able to cause such turning damage, she should have Empower Turning, since without it, she should have a total of level + Charisma modifier of at least +28 (pretty high for a dwarven cleric). With ET, she would need a minimum total of level + Charisma modifier of +15; since we've established she should be at least level 13, she would need a minimun CHA modifier of +2, pretty reasonable.

As for Durkon* knowing the Spawns had ITR, we can't be sure he did know, and even if he did, he could still be dismissing Minrah as a threat, thinking her as a mid-level cleric (something beetween 6 and 9), which could, with some luck, be able to turn some improved spawns (they don't say to him any time that the she turned four of them), but that, even with luck, wouldn't affect high level full vampires.

[unbeliever536]

I'm still at a loss as to why the bolster duration is believed to be too short.

[D.One]

I'm still at a loss as to why the bolster duration is believed to be too short.

My main problem with the bolster option is that it isn't shown on panel. That means it should have been performed before lying down on the ground pretending to be dead bodies, and there's where the one minute duration becomes a great problem.

I am dismissing the idea of him bolstering off panel during the fight mainly because we never see the light/darklight that is always shown when turn/rebuke/bolster is used. There are even multiple jokes in the strips about it.

[Hecuba]

I don't see why Improved Turn Resistance, a feat, is being considered too contrived (or at least more contrived than an unknown Prestige Class).

The vampire spawn are nameless mooks.
Assuming they have ITR means assuming that:
All 4 of the nameless mooks we see are important enough to use customized builds rather than their standard MM statblock
All 4 of the nameless mooks are customized with the same feat
At that point, we might as well be suggesting an across the board modification to Vampire Spawn for the setting. That's just short of a house-rule, while an unknown PRC is just light on details (most relevant PRCs would qualify).

(Setting aside the procedural bounds of this thread, my actual hypothesis would be that Rich doesn't see the value of explaining the destroy cs. turn mechanism and has silently house ruled it away. But I was working on a similar hypothesis for Hilgya having TU at all, and he did actually make mention of that in comic - so I'm certainly not batting 100 on this topic.)


You know, about that "does Belkar have Two Weapon Pounce or Bounding Assult" thing... I don't suppose taking the Spirit Lion Totem ACF would be a possibility?

I think this has come up before, I'll be a spring chicken if I can remember what thread number it was.

My best recollection was that the expanding the known sources list wasn't called for when there was a way to explain it by using (multiple) feats in already demonstrated sources. But I don't know for sure if that was ultimately why it wasn't taken up, nor do I know if his feat list had more empty space at the time.

[Jasdoif]

The vampire spawn are nameless mooks.
Assuming they have ITR means assuming that:
All 4 of the nameless mooks we see are important enough to use customized builds rather than their standard MM statblock
All 4 of the nameless mooks are customized with the same feat
At that point, we might as well be suggesting an across the board modification to Vampire Spawn for the setting. That's just short of a house-rule, while an unknown PRC is just light on details (most relevant PRCs would qualify).Yeah, the need to customize nameless throwaway characters makes it look questionable.

The similar Bolster Resistance feat from Libris Mortis (undead you create or raise via necromancy spells have +4 turn resistance) has its own problem: Even assuming it works with a spell that accelerates the vampire spawn process (rather than doing all the work itself), it has Corpsecrafter as a prerequisite feat. HPoH (or one of the other vampires) getting one feat from leveling while a vampire is reasonably plausible, but two feats? That'd require leveling at least four times...the timeframe certainly isn't conducive to that.

[Reboot]

The similar Bolster Resistance feat from Libris Mortis (undead you create or raise via necromancy spells have +4 turn resistance) has its own problem: Even assuming it works with a spell that accelerates the vampire spawn process (rather than doing all the work itself), it has Corpsecrafter as a prerequisite feat. HPoH (or one of the other vampires) getting one feat from leveling while a vampire is reasonably plausible, but two feats? That'd require leveling at least four times...the timeframe certainly isn't conducive to that.

It's not just the timeframe in the abstract. It's "how could they possibly have levelled (even once) from what they've been through?" That +8 level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) is killer. For Durkula to have levelled from 14 "at birth" to 15 now (re: Symbol of Death), he would need the XP of a no-LA level 23 character. Hence why the thread was scrambling trying to figure out how Durkon could have got to 15 after all on his last day pre-vamp a few strips back, rather than considering it might have happened with Durkula post-vamp.

[unbeliever536]

My main problem with the bolster option is that it isn't shown on panel. That means it should have been performed before lying down on the ground pretending to be dead bodies, and there's where the one minute duration becomes a great problem.

I am dismissing the idea of him bolstering off panel during the fight mainly because we never see the light/darklight that is always shown when turn/rebuke/bolster is used. There are even multiple jokes in the strips about it.

It definitely doesn't happen during the fight. He definitely has time while or before lying down, though, if he is aware of when the Order is going to exit the temple, which could be as simple as a listen check to hear their shouted-to-the-world plans.

[b_jonas]

As for Greg's extra level, is it possible that he's advanced a level from roleplaying XP? Wait, hear me out and laugh at me only after that.

Greg becoming a vampire, choosing to worship Hel, and following Hel's big plan to end the world has served as setting up a very significant plot arc. Enabling an entire book's worth of plot should be a task that's difficult enough for an epic level character. In book 2, Shojo was responsible for the main plot by dragging the Order into Azure city for a fake trial; in book 3 it was Xykon and Redcloak by attacking Azure City, capturing it but losing the chance to acquire a gate, killing Roy and splitting the Order; in book 4 it was Haley meeting her past in Greysky city, and Vaarsuvius by acquiring complete and total ultimate arcane power by a pact with the fiends, rifting apart from her mate, and attacking Xykon (although she won't get XP for any of this); in book 5 the pivotal character was clearly Tarquin who set up an evil empire and the ultimate fate for Elan to topple that empire, although Redcloak can also get some credit for revealing the Dark One's plan. As for book 6, the Giant has told us clearly (after #1015) that Durkon's vampirization is the main plot now, so I think Greg has a similar pivotal role in this book.


The reason that this scene is not the climactic pay-off that everyone seems to be looking for is because this is not the climax of this story. This is the beginning of this story. The point of this scene was to elucidate the stakes for the rest of this plotline and set up the conflict, so complaining that it does not resolve said conflict is completely missing the point.

This is the equivalent of the scene where Tarquin stands on the balcony and tells Elan about how he's schemed to bring three nations under his control and how they're going to have a great duel someday, and Elan looks on in horror at the giant flaming letters. Which, if you'll remember, occurred one-third of the way through the last book, about where we are now. In both cases, the point of the scene was to get the heroes on board with the conflict that would form the main body of the book. Because, as I intimated in the main discussion thread: This "Durkon stuff" is the main plot. If the only plotline that matters to you is what happens with Xykon, then yes, I would expect that the next year or two are going to be rough for you. But there's a long ways to go on this book, and it will have direct and unskippable ramifications on everything that will happen in the final book. The plot of OOTS is saving the world, and the world needs saving in this way right now.

This is something that could be worth a level even with the vampire level adjustment. Either that, or he's just getting free levels as a nemesis, but I personally don't think he clarifies for that.

[Douglas]

This is something that could be worth a level even with the vampire level adjustment. Either that, or he's just getting free levels as a nemesis, but I personally don't think he clarifies for that.
Worth 1 level? Maybe. Worth 9 levels? I really really doubt it.

Greg leveling up after becoming a vampire would require earning enough xp, not just to gain a level, but also to pay for the 8 levels' worth of adjustment he got from the Vampire template. It's not the difference between level 14 and level 15 that's hard to explain, or the difference between level 22 and level 23. The problem is that the actually relevant difference is between level 14 and level 23.

The only reasonable explanations I can think of, which I believe I've already posted here, are "Rich is ignoring that part of the rules" and "Durkon leveled up between casting Holy Word and dying."

[unbeliever536]

The only reasonable explanations I can think of, which I believe I've already posted here, are "Rich is ignoring that part of the rules" and "Durkon leveled up between casting Holy Word and dying."

Advancing Belkar (and Nale) an additional level actually clears up the "where did Belkar's implied (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html) Favored Enemy (Undead) come from?" question quite nicely, since it gives him Ranger 15, which provides a new Favored Enemy. Belkar and Durkon leveling up from the first Linear Guild fight* seems fairly reasonable, since we have reason to believe that they were ahead of Roy, and he also leveled up at some point during the Very Long Day. As I recall the only reason our minimum for Belkar is 15 is that it's tied to Durkon's 14 at the time of the Holy Word.

* Durkon's level 15 has to be during the first Linear Guild fight if it has an effect on our estimate of Belkar's level, since Durkon did not have access to 8th level spells when he prepared for Pyramid Day and the Holy Word fight is the second battle of the day.

[Jasdoif]

Greg leveling up after becoming a vampire would require earning enough xp, not just to gain a level, but also to pay for the 8 levels' worth of adjustment he got from the Vampire template.I don't think so, actually. According to the DMG, experience is tied to ECL; if HPoH has all Durkon's cleric levels, he has enough XP to account for those cleric levels and the level adjustment. If HPoH has the same XP as Durkon had, he'd be down eight cleric levels to account for the +8 level adjustment (the type of approach recommended for players somehow acquiring the half-fiend template in a Monster Manual web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a)).

[Douglas]

I don't think so, actually. According to the Monster Manual, experience is tied to ECL; if HPoH has all Durkon's cleric levels, he has enough XP to account for those cleric levels and the level adjustment. If HPoH has the same XP as Durkon had, he'd be down eight cleric levels to account for the +8 level adjustment (the type of approach recommended for players somehow acquiring the half-fiend template in a Monster Manual web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a)).
I am not aware of any actual rule in either 3e or 3.5 that says your class level ever decreases for any reason other than either level drain or death and resurrection. I can't find anything in the Monster Manual and DMG that directly addresses what happens to level and/or experience when a template with level adjustment is acquired during play. The only rulebook I've found that does say anything on the subject is Savage Species, which gives an example of a level 5 character becoming a wererat. That example has the character keep her existing 5 class levels and 10,000 xp, and require earning enough xp to - from that point - reach the xp total for her new ECL before leveling up again.

[Jasdoif]

I am not aware of any actual rule in either 3e or 3.5 that says your class level ever decreases for any reason other than either level drain or death and resurrection. I can't find anything in the Monster Manual and DMG that directly addresses what happens to level and/or experience when a template with level adjustment is acquired during play. The only rulebook I've found that does say anything on the subject is Savage Species, which gives an example of a level 5 character becoming a wererat. That example has the character keep her existing 5 class levels and 10,000 xp, and require earning enough xp to - from that point - reach the xp total for her new ECL before leveling up again.Hmm....That is what Savage Species says, never noticed that before.

Meanwhile, the DMG and Monster Manual both say a character's experience (and how much experience a character needs to gain a level) is based on its ECL, with the Monster Manual going as far as saying a monster character is considered to have XP "needed to be a character of its ECL". True, there's no direct mention of acquiring a level-adjusting template in play...which means there's no exception to the experience-ECL relationship when acquiring a level-adjusting template in play.

As Savage Species is a 3.0 book, I'm...not especially moved by it when compared to two 3.5 core books.

[Douglas]

DMG page 172:

Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level.
PHB page 22:

XP: This column on Table 3-2 shows the experience point total needed to attain a given character level - that is, the total of all the character's level in classes.
MM page 290:

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.

The DMG and PHB quotes both talk about how much xp is required to advance to a particular level. They do not mention anything about level, effective or otherwise, having any effect on xp.

The MM quote, if taken strictly literally, would mean Greg's xp is permanently fixed and can never increase. In context, the section is about creating a new monster character, and the only part of it relevant to leveling up is a reiteration of the DMG statement that ECL determines how much xp is required to advance.

I am not aware of any statement in any of these three books that ECL affects xp during play rather than the other way around, or that they are kept in sync by any mechanic other than gains in xp causing advancement in level and loss in level causing reduction in xp, neither of which support your position. Do you have a relevant quote that I missed?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hmm....That is what Savage Species says, never noticed that before.

Meanwhile, the DMG and Monster Manual both say a character's experience (and how much experience a character needs to gain a level) is based on its ECL, with the Monster Manual going as far as saying a monster character is considered to have XP "needed to be a character of its ECL". True, there's no direct mention of acquiring a level-adjusting template in play...which means there's no exception to the experience-ECL relationship when acquiring a level-adjusting template in play.

As Savage Species is a 3.0 book, I'm...not especially moved by it when compared to two 3.5 core books.

Even if Durkon* went straight to the EXP of ECL 22, that still doesn't explain how he gained a level in such a short period of time for such a high level character.

[Jasdoif]

MM page 290:
Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.
....
The MM quote, if taken strictly literally, would mean Greg's xp is permanently fixed and can never increase. In context, the section is about creating a new monster character, and the only part of it relevant to leveling up is a reiteration of the DMG statement that ECL determines how much xp is required to advance.The section is on the first page of the chapter for improving monsters. I'd think the context is about monster characters advancing. Which, in retrospect, makes the "minimum needed" part make a lot more sense, if it's only done when advancement occurs...which (as the same page says) can be done by adding class levels, hit dice, or a template. And since there's only one way to add a template to a stat block (unlike a character acquiring enough XP to gain a class level, compared to the DM simply adding class levels onto a character), I don't see why a creature gaining a template during play would have a different XP determination than the exact same creature gaining a template prior to play.

(What I really want to know is why experience when acquiring a template wasn't directly mentioned under applying a template. I get that only creatures with class levels have XP in any meaningful way, so the XP being mentioned under the "Monsters and Class Levels" heading makes sense....But they obviously knew acquired templates existed, that level adjustment is meant for characters to be played, and that playable characters have XP; and it's certainly not a straightforward question, as this entire series of posts shows....)

[Douglas]

The section is on the first page of the chapter for improving monsters. I'd think the context is about monster characters advancing.
The first paragraph of the chapter is:

Each of the monster entries in Chapters 1 through 3 describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template (a half-dragon lammasu, for example) to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.
That seems pretty clear to me that it means "improving" in the sense of a DM going "I want McSpecial MonsterGuy, who I am creating for the first time right now, to be an improved version of his race."


Which, in retrospect, makes the "minimum needed" part make a lot more sense, if it's only done when advancement occurs...which (as the same page says) can be done by adding class levels, hit dice, or a template. And since there's only one way to add a template to a stat block (unlike a character acquiring enough XP to gain a class level, compared to the DM simply adding class levels onto a character), I don't see why a creature gaining a template during play would have a different XP determination than the exact same creature gaining a template prior to play.
Because the context of the "XP determination" rule in question is that of creating a new creature, and is answering the question of "I have a monster of ECL Y, how much XP does it have?" There's an implicit assumption there that the monster in question does not already have a known XP total.

[5a Violista]

It definitely doesn't happen during the fight. He definitely has time while or before lying down, though, if he is aware of when the Order is going to exit the temple, which could be as simple as a listen check to hear their shouted-to-the-world plans.

I found more evidence that makes casting-while-lying-down highly unlikely:

(1) There are (at minimum, pages 1100-1102) 15 parallel-dwarf-corpse-distances between Brother Sandstone and the dwarves that Hilgya turned (and likely much more than 20; 15 is just where I stopped counting). Since they're roughly in a line with some space between them, and the average dwarf height of 4ft, there's at least 60ft between Brother Sandstone and the four dwarves. 60ft is the range of Bolster Undead. Even if they ran instead of walked (as the panels show), The Order of the Stick would take more than 1 turn just running past the dead dwarves, pushing the time limit that much closer to the 1-min expiration time.
(2) Not to mention, page 1101 last panel shows that the tunnel turns a corner, meaning there's no way Brother Sandstone had line-of-sight with the majority of the dwarves, and Brother Sandstone was at least 20ft away from the corner (which is a move action for him to get back to pretending-to-be-a-corpse, if we go by the most conservative estimates). Not to mention, the farther he gets from the door, the higher the listen penalty is (the most generous and conservative assumptions would give him a +8 penalty to Listen just to have line-of-sight with the dwarves that Hilgya turned).
(3) Even if Brother Sandstone moved to a position where he had line-of-sight, he would have had to use his standard action of a Bolster Undead on 20 (conservative estimate) to 26+ (realistic estimate) vampire spawns in order reach the four that Hilgya turned...and it could easily be argued that casting "Bolster Undead" would merit a +5 "Listener Distracted" Listen penalty. (It could also be argued that the door merit something closer to the +15 "through a stone wall" penalty instead of the +5 "through a door" normal penalty, which assumes a normal door and not a magically-enforced dwarven door, but that might be a little overdoing it). Plus, for every 3-5 dwarf corpses (depending on dwarf corpse packing) he has to pass in order for his Bolster to reach the four that Hilgya turned, there's another +1 Listen penalty and another move action he has to spend before sprinting back towards the door (before the Order opens the door, because if he's too slow, then the pretend-to-be-a-corpse plan is completely ruined).

So, in sum: he needs to make 1 (or more, to Bolster the other spawn) standard actions and 2-4+ move actions and succeed at a Listen Check with a DC that's anywhere between 15 and 28+ just to get back to pretending to be a corpse in time, putting the whole plan at risk, if he wants to Bolster for one minute the four spawns that Hilgya turned most likely (if you don't treat conversations as free actions and if you treat the beat panels as the Order waiting) well over a minute later.

An argument could be made that one of the other dwarves was actually a vampire with cleric levels and that vampire was Bolstering off-screen or while lying down, but Brother Sandstone doing it just doesn't make sense, given the distances involved.

[Quartz]

Surely the simplest explanation for Durkon now being level 15 is that Durkon was nearly at level 15 and the post-vampirisation activities pushed him past?

Remember that a 15th level character is CR 15 for a party of four 15th level characters, and thus a much higher CR for a single character. +4, I think. So Durkon's fight against Roy was CR 18 or 19. He'd get plenty of XP from that. Then there's Durkon's off-panel fight against the dwarven priests.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Surely the simplest explanation for Durkon now being level 15 is that Durkon was nearly at level 15 and the post-vampirisation activities pushed him past?

Remember that a 15th level character is CR 15 for a party of four 15th level characters, and thus a much higher CR for a single character. +4, I think. So Durkon's fight against Roy was CR 18 or 19. He'd get plenty of XP from that. Then there's Durkon's off-panel fight against the dwarven priests.

Greg wasn't a ~15th level character post-vampirization. The moment Durkon was taken over by a vampire he had an effective level of +8 due to the vampire template. So his one-on-one with Roy was a 20-something character versus a 15th level fighter. He gained vanishingly little experience from that, if any. And the priests where likely not as high level as Roy.

And if Douglas' interpretation of the rules is correct (and I'm inclined to believe they are), that means Greg needs enough XP to level up to ~23. Even if Durkon was 1 XP away from his next level up, Greg can't have crossed over the threshold.

GW

[Hecuba]

And the priests where likely not as high level as Roy.

The Priests might provide an some XP, but I doubt its enough.

While I doubt that the majority of the Creed of Stone would be high enough level, some of them might: Norkrud only engaged, after all, after learning that Sandstone had already spent all of his high level slots for the day.

Additionally, the High Priest of Thor did technically participate in the fight between Durkon and Roy right at the end. If we peg the high priests as having similar level to Red Cloak - 17+ - then it becomes a fight between a lvl 22 character and 1 level 15 character and 1 level 17 character. Which is marginally more meaningful. If we peg Brother Sandstone as also having similar level to the high priests, then he could have gotten some there as well.

But that still likely won't be enough to get a single level. And even if it were, it would require the presumption of the free XP from template shenanigans (which I don't think works, otherwise I expect there'd be a stupid TO loop involving repeatedly acquiring and being cured of lycanthropy for free XP - and no such loop comes to mind).

It seems overwhelmingly more likely that Durkon leveled in the Pyramid before dying: the Holy Word fight and the fight at the temple steps seem much better candidates.

[b_jonas]

Worth 1 level? Maybe. Worth 9 levels? I really really doubt it.

Greg leveling up after becoming a vampire would require earning enough xp, not just to gain a level, but also to pay for the 8 levels' worth of adjustment he got from the Vampire template. It's not the difference between level 14 and level 15 that's hard to explain, or the difference between level 22 and level 23. The problem is that the actually relevant difference is between level 14 and level 23. So later posts explain geekery is unsure on what the rules are. I can't really help there. If what Douglas says here is really how the leveling rules work in 3.5, then my suggestion wouldn't work. I assumed that Greg only had had to collect enough experience for what would be one level of jump for a level 22 dwarf.

[Jasdoif]

That seems pretty clear to me that it means "improving" in the sense of a DM going "I want McSpecial MonsterGuy, who I am creating for the first time right now, to be an improved version of his race."That would be far easier to accept if acquired templates, which "can be added to creatures to anytime", weren't covered in the same chapter (the Template section starts on the very next page, even). Or if they were called out differently than inherited templates in some mechanical fashion.


Because the context of the "XP determination" rule in question is that of creating a new creature, and is answering the question of "I have a monster of ECL Y, how much XP does it have?" There's an implicit assumption there that the monster in question does not already have a known XP total.That seems an odd assumption to assume is there. "This creature's ECL changed outside the standard leveling process, how much XP does it have now" seems an equally valid question to ask, and one that doesn't involve an unstated "the XP doesn't change if you already glanced at the number" uncertainty principle clause. Again, acquired templates are meant to be added to creatures at any time, and aren't treated specially in the paragraph talking about ECL and XP. (I will admit to being amused at the idea of a type of Inevitable that hunt down and punish acquired-template-bearing monsters that are overleveled for the XP they've gained, but that's...not especially relevant.)


And if Douglas' interpretation of the rules is correct (and I'm inclined to believe they are), that means Greg needs enough XP to level up to ~23. Even if Durkon was 1 XP away from his next level up, Greg can't have crossed over the threshold.And in my interpretation, HPoH would be set to the minimum XP needed to be ECL 22 when he arose, regardless of how close Durkon was to 15. Getting 22,000XP is certainly easier to imagine than getting 148,001XP; but still well out of "simple explanation" territory.

[Ephemera]

I hesitate to delve in these matters because it treads pretty close to assuming that RAW isn’t in effect. But I’m not entirely certain that Greg is just Durkon with a template applied as far as XP goes.

It seems just as likely, if there were a player involved, that the DM has taken control of the character. That part doesn’t matter, of course, except that I think you could make some case that Greg is his own person with his own XP, and that he’s 8 levels (or ECLs) higher than Durkon. If and when Durkon is rezzed, he’s almost certainly coming back where he was (minus appropriate penalty), regardless of how much XP Greg does or doesn’t gain in the meantime.

I guess what I’m saying is that whatever the rule is for PC’s acquiring templates, it’s not apparent to me that it actually pertains in this instance...

[unbeliever536]

I hesitate to delve in these matters because it treads pretty close to assuming that RAW isn’t in effect. But I’m not entirely certain that Greg is just Durkon with a template applied as far as XP goes.

It seems just as likely, if there were a player involved, that the DM has taken control of the character. That part doesn’t matter, of course, except that I think you could make some case that Greg is his own person with his own XP, and that he’s 8 levels (or ECLs) higher than Durkon. If and when Durkon is rezzed, he’s almost certainly coming back where he was (minus appropriate penalty), regardless of how much XP Greg does or doesn’t gain in the meantime.

I guess what I’m saying is that whatever the rule is for PC’s acquiring templates, it’s not apparent to me that it actually pertains in this instance...

Why shouldn't Durkon gain experience for the damage he's dealt to Greg's plan? :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Perhaps we should change Malack being a "lizardfolk" to "lizard-snake-thing" (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963543904359534592)?

[knag]

In #1113, Hilgya seems to think if she dies with honor (through the Loki Loophole) she would end up in Valhalla, in Ysgard the plane of Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral. This to me shows that the accepted view of her alignment as non-lawful Evil is not right, a view which has become more problematic since her undead turning.

Since she believes as a faithful cleric of Loki she would end up in Ysgard, this tells me that:
1) Loki resides in Ysgard, and therefore Loki is not Evil
2) She believes herself to be Chaotic Neutral (or Good).

Her current alignment listing is based on two facts, as far as I can tell, that Loki is Chaotic, so she must be non-lawful, and the the Linear Guild are "Evil Opposites" of the OOTS. Certainly the former is true, but we have more specific information since she created anarchic water, and I think that too much has been read into the latter term, blinding us to the facts of her actions.

The fact that she can turn undead and create anarchic water, given the assumption of RAW, means that both she and Loki are Neutral, and that she personally is Chaotic Neutral. She should in my opinion be listed as Chaotic Neutral.

[Ephemera]

In #1113, Hilgya seems to think if she dies with honor (through the Loki Loophole) she would end up in Valhalla, in Ysgard the plane of Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral. This to me shows that the accepted view of her alignment as non-lawful Evil is not right, a view which has become more problematic since her undead turning.

Since she believes as a faithful cleric of Loki she would end up in Ysgard, this tells me that:
1) Loki resides in Ysgard, and therefore Loki is not Evil
2) She believes herself to be Chaotic Neutral (or Good).


The rest of what she's saying, though, is that OOtS Dwarves aren't like humans (who wind up in the plane corresponding with their alignment. I think that's sufficient evidence to conclude that OOtS dwarves don't go to a plane that corresponds to their alignment, but rather go to Hel's domain if they die a dishonorable death and to Valhalla otherwise, in spite of said Dwarves presumably having a variety of alignments. Hence, I don't think we can conclude anything in particular about her alignment based on what plane she expects to go to.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In #1113, Hilgya seems to think if she dies with honor (through the Loki Loophole) she would end up in Valhalla, in Ysgard the plane of Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral. This to me shows that the accepted view of her alignment as non-lawful Evil is not right, a view which has become more problematic since her undead turning.

Since she believes as a faithful cleric of Loki she would end up in Ysgard, this tells me that:
1) Loki resides in Ysgard, and therefore Loki is not Evil
2) She believes herself to be Chaotic Neutral (or Good).

Her current alignment listing is based on two facts, as far as I can tell, that Loki is Chaotic, so she must be non-lawful, and the the Linear Guild are "Evil Opposites" of the OOTS. Certainly the former is true, but we have more specific information since she created anarchic water, and I think that too much has been read into the latter term, blinding us to the facts of her actions.

The fact that she can turn undead and create anarchic water, given the assumption of RAW, means that both she and Loki are Neutral, and that she personally is Chaotic Neutral. She should in my opinion be listed as Chaotic Neutral.

You are basing this on the idea that a soul must go to the plane that matches their alignment. #1113 actually says that that is not the case for dwarves. It seems all they can do is either go to Hel, or go to Valhalla. Alignment does not come into it at all.

As far as I know, her current alignment is based on the fact that in Dorukan's dungeon she was Evil as per WoG, and we assume continuity until such time as we see evidence against it.

GW

[Jasdoif]

You are basing this on the idea that a soul must go to the plane that matches their alignment. #1113 actually says that that is not the case for dwarves. It seems all they can do is either go to Hel, or go to Valhalla. Alignment does not come into it at all.#737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) says dwarves that die with honor go to the Outer Plane that matches their alignment, though.

I'm not entirely convinced Valhalla is part of Ysgard, either; I understand in earlier editions Valhalla was one of Ysgard's layers, but the DMG for 3.5 doesn't list it among Ysgard's layers (and the only location reference for Valhalla in 3.x I've stumbled across is in Deities and Demigods' alternate Norse-based cosmology, which doesn't map one-to-one with the Great Wheel).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

#737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) says dwarves that die with honor go to the Outer Plane that matches their alignment, though.

Good point. Still, unless the bottle-service upper floor is in a different plane from the general Valhalla, we are still looking at a contradiction. It is difficult to say who, then, is wrong about it, whether Durkon or Hilgya. I'd suspect Hilgya, whose approach to reality is very much coloured through her own preconceptions and assumptions, but on the other hand, Durkon has not exactly invested heavily in Knowledge(Religion).

Grey Wolf

[Aquillion]

Good point. Still, unless the bottle-service upper floor is in a different plane from the general Valhalla, we are still looking at a contradiction. It is difficult to say who, then, is wrong about it, whether Durkon or Hilgya. I'd suspect Hilgya, whose approach to reality is very much coloured through her own preconceptions and assumptions, but on the other hand, Durkon has not exactly invested heavily in Knowledge(Religion).
I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction. Hilgya says "you have to be honorable or you end up with Hel" - she doesn't say you don't end up in the plane for your alignment, just that honorableness is required first. That's what pisses her off.

I think that unless we get something that says otherwise, this more or less establishes that her alignment is CN (or at least that she thinks of herself as CN.) She thinks she'll go to a CN / CG afterlife, and if she were CG she couldn't worship Loki.* Hence, she's CN.

Is there any reason she couldn't be CN, anyway? Any problems with that? Because if we accept that, there's no contradictions at all. And if we're going to get into "maybe characters are wrong about their concrete statements regarding their own alignment or the setting metaphysics" (without any specific reason to doubt them, that is), then the whole geekery thread is going to fall apart, since huge parts of it depend on trusting those statements. So I'd say we should list her as CN until / unless we have something that directly contradicts that (or which gives us a reason to think she was wrong about her afterlife, or that afterlives do actually work differently than described.)


* Unless Loki is CN, I know. My reading of the discussion over how much Loki hates undead was that it established that he's an evil god that grants turning, since IIRC we have cites for him being evil.

[Reboot]

Is there any reason she couldn't be CN, anyway? Any problems with that? Because if we accept that, there's no contradictions at all.

One - there's an offhand remark by Rich in the book commentary for the Cliffport LG fight that she was evil, while comparing her to Leaky.

Of course, that was some time (and a kid) ago. And it's not as if the Giant has never retconned alignments (hai V). But still there.

[5a Violista]

Of course, if she was confirmed to be evil in the past and evidence suggests she's neutral now, "She changed alignments during the time off-screen" is a valid possibility.

I personally find her changing alignment offscreen to be somewhat unsatisfying, unless we get some sort of flashback/acknowledgement/etc in the near future. Her statement on this page doesn't give the vibe of "I used to not qualify for Valhalla due to my alignment but I changed it" but instead suggests that she always expected her plan to work out for her, even in the past when she was Word-of-God-confirmed Evil.

So, I suspect something else is at play - either dwarves end up with either Hel or in Valhalla, or the fact that she's a cleric lets her hang out in the same afterlife as Loki regardless of alignment, or she's been retconned to have been evil-leaning Neutral, or that she was evil but not Evil, or...any other similar possibility.

[Aeson]

One - there's an offhand remark by Rich in the book commentary for the Cliffport LG fight that she was evil, while comparing her to Leaky.
She attempted to murder her husband, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html) and her stated reason for showing up at the Temple of Thor is to help someone murder Durkon Thundershield. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html) I will grant that she does not appear to have voluntarily wed her husband and that she has understandable reasons to be upset with Durkon, but I don't think that murder is justifiable in either case.

Now, her stated reason for being outside the Temple of Thor might be exaggeration, much like "I'm going to kill him" or "I'm going to rake him over the coals," and therefore not be admissible as evidence for an Evil alignment. However, her attempted murder of her husband is far less excusable given what we're actually shown of how he treated her (as opposed to how she claims he treated her). Being unhappily married is grounds for a divorce, or perhaps 'merely' separation in a culture which does not recognize divorce or which only recognizes divorce under specific circumstances, but even assuming an extremely divorce-intolerant culture I find it difficult to rationalize resorting to murder to end the marriage as consistent with a non-Evil alignment, especially when the spouse is as inoffensive - and potentially unaware of his partner's unhappiness - as Hilgya's husband appeared to be from what little we were shown of him. Hilgya's attempt to murder her husband looks a lot more like a way to avoid social stigma resulting from a divorce or to retain some material advantage (either for herself or for her clan) which would be lost if the marriage were to end in a divorce than like the only way she can get out of a relationship that she cannot stand.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction. Hilgya says "you have to be honorable or you end up with Hel" - she doesn't say you don't end up in the plane for your alignment, just that honorableness is required first. That's what pisses her off.

The contradiction remains: she says that she (as CE or CN) would end up in Valhalla with all the dwarves that are LG. That cannot be the case if Durkon is right, and dwarves do go to the plane or their alignment.

GW

[hamishspence]

The contradiction remains: she says that she (as CE or CN) would end up in Valhalla with all the dwarves that are LG. That cannot be the case if Durkon is right, and dwarves do go to the plane or their alignment.

GW

Valhalla is not the LG plane though - it's the CN (with very mild Good tendencies) plane.

I could see Durkon being slated for Valhalla, not because of his alignment, but because of his deity - if Thor is "CG but allows LG clerics" - then, per Complete Divine, as an extremely devoted follower of a deity, "deity's realm afterlife" overrides "afterlife appropriate for alignment".

In the intro to Blood Runs In The Family, Durkon explains why he wants to go to Valhalla despite not being CG - it gives him a chance to "cut loose and have fun" - that living the ultra-LG live, doesn't give.

It's possible that most LG dwarves who "hope for Valhalla" are fervent worshippers of deities that choose to reside there regardless of their actual alignments.

[Ephemera]

Valhalla is not the LG plane though - it's the CN (with very mild Good tendencies) plane.

I could see Durkon being slated for Valhalla, not because of his alignment, but because of his deity - if Thor is "CG but allows LG clerics" - then, per Complete Divine, as an extremely devoted follower of a deity, "deity's realm afterlife" overrides "afterlife appropriate for alignment".

In the intro to Blood Runs In The Family, Durkon explains why he wants to go to Valhalla despite not being CG - it gives him a chance to "cut loose and have fun" - that living the ultra-LG live, doesn't give.

It's possible that most LG dwarves who "hope for Valhalla" are fervent worshippers of deities that choose to reside there regardless of their actual alignments.

It's also possible that OOtS dwarves use "Valhalla" to refer to their afterlife of choice.

The problem, though, is that we know for a fact that OOtS afterlife doesn't follow RAW, at least for dwarves, so we can't really be sure exactly what Hilgya is implying. Therefore, I think that while it's a a clever bit of deduction to figure out her alignment based on what she says, there's enough doubt about the mechanics of it (be it the location of OOtS Valhalla, or what plane OOtS dwarves go to) that I don't think it's enough to contradict the other evidence we have for Hilgya being evil.

I do think that we probably have to forget about trying to prove she's evil because of what she did to her husband, though, per the thread FAQ.

[knag]

The contradiction remains: she says that she (as CE or CN) would end up in Valhalla with all the dwarves that are LG. That cannot be the case if Durkon is right, and dwarves do go to the plane or their alignment.

Where does she say that other dwarves end up in Valhalla? She just says that's where she wants to be, not that LG dwarves go there. There is no contradiction.

[hamishspence]

It's also possible that OOtS dwarves use "Valhalla" to refer to their afterlife of choice.

Maybe. Roy does (using the old 2e names) describe the afterlives in a way that makes them sound like the Great Wheel:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

Combined with the fact that Arcadia and Tartarus have received namedrops - it makes me think that "Valhalla" is simply Ysgard from the 3.5 DMG.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where does she say that other dwarves end up in Valhalla? She just says that's where she wants to be, not that LG dwarves go there. There is no contradiction.

She makes a distinction between the lounge "upstairs" and the beer hall where everyone yells. The beer hall (and the fact the place is Valhalla) definitely sounds like the place Thor worshipers end up in - i.e. everyone else.

GW

[hamishspence]

The beer hall (and the fact the place is Valhalla) definitely sounds like the place Thor worshipers end up in - i.e. everyone else.



Actually, we know some dwarves worship Odin - because we saw a dwarven cleric of Odin in Origin of PCs.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, we know some dwarves worship Odin - because we saw a dwarven cleric of Odin in Origin of PCs.

And I would imagine a few more worship Freya and the other gods. But the gross majority seem to be Thor followers. Even if not all dwarves end in Valhalla and only Thor-worshipers do, that still doesn't explain how a CE (or CN) Loki follower ends in the same plane as LG-CG Thor followers if they are all supposed to go to their alignment plane.

Now, it might be that all this only applies to clerics/highest devotees of the respective deities, because it turns out that Valhalla is Odin's place, and his two children still live with their parents, as you suggested, and the bulk of the dwarves do end up in the mountain with Roy's family. No way to tell yet. It still feels weird though - although based on the quote from BRitF you mentioned, I'm now more inclined to believe that Durkon was wrong when talking to Malak.

GW

[Jasdoif]

Now, it might be that all this only applies to clerics/highest devotees of the respective deities, because it turns out that Valhalla is Odin's place, and his two children still live with their parents, as you suggested, and the bulk of the dwarves do end up in the mountain with Roy's family. No way to tell yet. It still feels weird though - although based on the quote from BRitF you mentioned, I'm now more inclined to believe that Durkon was wrong when talking to Malak.I just now reread Durkon's preface in Blood Runs in the Family; and Durkon says Valhalla is a benefit to worshipping Thor over Odin, so "Valhalla is Odin's place" doesn't seem to work out. (Nor does my not-really-serious "Valhalla is a transplanar stronghold" theory).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just now reread Durkon's preface in Blood Runs in the Family; and Durkon says Valhalla is a benefit to worshipping Thor over Odin, so "Valhalla is Odin's place" doesn't seem to work out. (Nor does my not-really-serious "Valhalla is a transplanar stronghold" theory).

But Loki followers also end there? Bloody hell, I'm really confused about how this works now. Back to thinking it might be Hilgya the one that is wrong and doesn't really know how this will shake out.

GW

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Back to thinking it might be Hilgya the one that is wrong and doesn't really know how this will shake out.

This is how I’m taking what Hilgya says, at least for now. At the very least, I’m not sure she can be taken as a solid source quite yet.

Or maybe only Loki and Thor dwell on Valhalla, not Odin? :smallconfused:

[The MunchKING]

But Loki followers also end there? Bloody hell, I'm really confused about how this works now. Back to thinking it might be Hilgya the one that is wrong and doesn't really know how this will shake out.

GW

OTOH DURKON is the one with the criminally low Knowledge: Religion score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html). Maybe his preface is the thing that's wrong and MOST Northern Dwarves in Honorable standing go to Valhalla.

[Aquillion]

Or Thor is CG, allows LG clerics, and overrides where you end up per the rules for deities that allow clerics with conflicting alignments. Hilgya knows this and knows that a huge number of Thor-worshiping dwarves end up in Valhalla as a result, while she expects to get there for being CN (whether she really is or not.) That would fit with RAW and with everyone's statements so far.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or Thor is CG, allows LG clerics, and overrides where you end up per the rules for deities that allow clerics with conflicting alignments. Hilgya knows this and knows that a huge number of Thor-worshiping dwarves end up in Valhalla as a result, while she expects to get there for being CN (whether she really is or not.) That would fit with RAW and with everyone's statements so far.

Again: if Valhalla is CG, by standard OotS rules (not RAW) a CN shouldn’t end there. And if instead every dwarf ends there because that’s a consequence of the bet, the Durkon was incorrect when he said that once past Hel dwarves did get to go to their corresponding alignment plane.

GW

[hamishspence]

It isn't CG though - it's on the CG/CN border. Some people there will be CG. Some will be CN. And some will be some other alignment entirely - but getting in anyway - because they're fervent devotees of a deity that lives there, and deities have their own rules for their followers.

[Jasdoif]

And some will be some other alignment entirely - but getting in anyway - because they're fervent devotees of a deity that lives there, and deities have their own rules for their followers.Which goes back to Durkon saying dwarves that die with honor go the Outer Plane matching their alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), and whether we have cause to discard that as an error on Durkon's part.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It isn't CG though - it's on the CG/CN border. Some people there will be CG. Some will be CN. And some will be some other alignment entirely - but getting in anyway - because they're fervent devotees of a deity that lives there, and deities have their own rules for their followers.

“It’s on the border” is not something that can happen in OotS. There’s not even a hint that people with differing alignments can end in the same place.

It is less clear whether devotee do end up in their god’s special place, but then what is weird is that Loki and Thor share the place

GW

[hamishspence]

There are more planes, than there are alignments. As Roy says:

"heaven or hell, limbo or nirvana, valhalla or the abyss, or a dozen in between".

Fits with the Great Wheel. 18 or so alignment planes, not 9.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There are more planes, than there are alignments. As Roy says:

"heaven or hell, limbo or nirvana, valhalla or the abyss, or a dozen in between".

Fits with the Great Wheel. 18 or so alignment planes, not 9.

Sure, but that means the LG people that lean L get their own place, not that they have to share it with LN. More planes means more subdivisions, not shared neighborhoods.

GW

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Take a Lawful Good person with Lawful Neutral tendencies, and a Lawful Neutral person with Lawful Good tendencies. Neither is particularly religious. Neither is a dwarf.

Do they go to the same afterlife (Arcadia)? If they don't, does the LN(LG) one automatically get downgraded to Mechanus, or does the LG(LN) one automatically get upgraded to Celestia?

In OotS? No idea. But given how often we’ve been told that you end in the plan matching your alignment, I find it more likely they’d be two separate subplanes, one for each of those cases, than LN and LG individuals ending up sharing, since by definition you can only fit in one alignment, and that plane therefore can’t fit two.

GW

[hamishspence]

Take a Lawful Good person with Lawful Neutral tendencies, and a Lawful Neutral person with Lawful Good tendencies. Neither is particularly religious. Neither is a dwarf.

Do they go to the same afterlife (Arcadia)? If they don't, does the LN(LG) one automatically get downgraded to Mechanus, or does the LG(LN) one automatically get upgraded to Celestia?

Even the Outsider races that reside in Arcadia, differ in alignment. Formians are Always LN. Arcadian Avengers are Usually LG.

But then, Formians are happy to reside on any Law-aligned plane.

[Jasdoif]

In OotS? No idea. But given how often we’ve been told that you end in the plan matching your alignment, I find it more likely they’d be two separate subplanes, one for each of those cases, than LN and LG individuals ending up sharing, since by definition you can only fit in one alignment, and that plane therefore can’t fit two.OotS-wise, I like to imagine Arcadia is where you end up if the bureaucracies of LN Mechanus Nirvana and LG Celestia both determine that you certainly belong on one of them, but can't come to an agreement on which.

[D.One]

I personaly like to view Hilgya's statement about Valhalla under the lens that dwarves use the word "Valhalla" the same way we tend to use "Heavens", as in a desirable afterlife, in oposition to Hel(l), which fits well with the nordic theme of the Northern Pantheon.

[Aquillion]

Which goes back to Durkon saying dwarves that die with honor go the Outer Plane matching their alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), and whether we have cause to discard that as an error on Durkon's part.I think that that's a somewhat tenacious reading of Durkon's statement. RAW Valhalla is a CG / CN border plane, so it matches both alignments and someone who goes there has gone to an Outer Plane matching their alignment, fitting Durkon's statement. At worst it's him giving a quick one-sentence summary to someone with no Knowledge (Religion).


“It’s on the border” is not something that can happen in OotS. There’s not even a hint that people with differing alignments can end in the same place.Miko was told she could visit her horse.

Beyond that, like I said above, I think that reading Durkon's statement as "there is exactly one and only one plane for each alignment, and these planes are in a one-to-one relationship with the alignments and everyone goes to the one and only one plane that matches their alignment, and no other alignments" is reading far too much into it.

Turning it around, though: We go by the assumption of RAW unless we have some indication otherwise, right? Is Durkon's statement the only indicator we have that is leading people to speculate that OOTS Valhalla might be non-RAW? Because I feel it's not really strong enough to support that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Miko was told she could visit her horse.
Point of order: Miko was told her horse could visit her.

[hamishspence]

Point of order: Miko was told her horse could visit her.

And The Giant did bring up that Windstriker, not being a dead soul, can visit other planes - with permission from the paladin he's assigned to - or on his own initiative if he doesn't have one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683417&postcount=34

Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to. Dead souls have no such freedom.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm not an expert on 2/3/.5e mechanics, but wouldn't Serini need at least 13 Charisma in order to be even able to consider taking a level of Paladin?

[hamishspence]

I'm not an expert on 2/3/.5e mechanics, but wouldn't Serini need at least 13 Charisma in order to be even able to consider taking a level of Paladin?

"Prime requisite requirements" are a thing in older editions, not 3rd ed/3.5. There are no minimum stat requirements - though in practice, a casting stat too low, for a spellcaster, makes them effectively unusable.

Generally speaking, nobody wants to play an Int 8 wizard, for example.

Low Charisma makes some of a paladin's class features not function well (Divine Grace, for example)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But if the player wants a low Charisma paladin, they can have one. Their spellcasting, at least, is Wisdom-dependant, not Charisma-dependant.

[b_jonas]

I'm not an expert on 2/3/.5e mechanics, but wouldn't Serini need at least 13 Charisma in order to be even able to consider taking a level of Paladin? I don't think so. O-Chul has taken a few Paladin levels with little Charisma.

Update:
"Prime requisite requirements" are a thing in older editions, not 3rd ed/3.5. Half of the core classes (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin) have alignment requirements though. And several feats have a minimum ability score as a prerequisite, either directly, or by requiring the ability to cast spells of a certain level, or by requiring another feat with such a prerequisite. For example, Roy has the Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave and Improved Sunder feats, which require at least 13 Strength; the Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm feats, which require at least 13 Intelligence; the Improved Grapple feat which requires at least 13 Dexterity. If you take lots of Fighter levels with low attribute scores, you're screwed, because Fighter gives you bonus feats that you can only spend on feats from a short list, most of which have some similar requirement. Haley has the Improved Precise Shot feat, which requires 19 Dexterity; Elan has the Dodge and Mobility and Spring Attack feats which each require 13 Dexterity. It seems like that sort of requirement is common.

[danielxcutter]

Realized V is level 15 now, not 16th: Forcecage is an Evocation spell, so the duration would be affected by the +1 CL from specialization.

[zimmerwald1915]

Realized V is level 15 now, not 16th: Forcecage is an Evocation spell, so the duration would be affected by the +1 CL from specialization.
Specialization doesn't give +1 CL in 3.5. Some domains do, including the Good domain that Durkon had when he was alive. But specialization only gives you an extra spell prepared each spell level.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The level boost is from the ioun stone Blackwing is wearing as a bracelet. Well, anklet.

[zimmerwald1915]

The level boost is from the ioun stone Blackwing is wearing as a bracelet. Well, anklet.
Yes, that boosts the CL up to 17, from V's natural 16. Danielxcutter is suggesting that V's natural CL, and thus total level, because V's a single-phase Wizard, is really 15, and that specialization gives a CL boost to evocations. It doesn't. Not in 3.5. Dunno about 5.

[unbeliever536]

Yes, that boosts the CL up to 17, from V's natural 16. Danielxcutter is suggesting that V's natural CL, and thus total level, because V's a single-phase Wizard, is really 15, and that specialization gives a CL boost to evocations. It doesn't. Not in 3.5. Dunno about 5.

Not in 5 either. 5 doesn't even have CL.

[rferries]

Hilgya used dream in the current strip, but it's only a sor/wiz and bard spell. She probably just paid someone to cast it, but it may instead be a very esoteric hint at one of her domains (though I don't know any core domains that grant dream).

Or she's an epic level cleric/bard. That's really the simplest solution :)

[EmperorSarda]

Hilgya used dream in the current strip, but it's only a sor/wiz and bard spell. She probably just paid someone to cast it, but it may instead be a very esoteric hint at one of her domains (though I don't know any core domains that grant dream).

Or she's an epic level cleric/bard. That's really the simplest solution :)

It does not look to be a domain spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

It does not look to be a domain spell.
Scroll + UMD? Herald domain? It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which doesn't easily jive with Hilgya's stated alignment and observed actions, but it does grant the spell.

Mystic theurge seems unlikely, considering we've already had one of those. Then again, given the earlier discussion about Hilgya's seemingly-low turning level, might it be worth considering what other prestige classes could give her access to dream?

[EmperorSarda]

Herald domain? It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which doesn't easily jive with Hilgya's stated alignment and observed actions, but it does grant the spell.

Is there an alignment required for the Herald domain? Because if she is a Herald for Loki, it could fit. She is spreading a way of life to get out of a restrictive honor system.

Because yeah, Barachiel is the only deity who grants it officially. But there is no alignment requirement for the domain itself.

[Doug Lampert]

Is there an alignment required for the Herald domain? Because if she is a Herald for Loki, it could fit. She is spreading a way of life to get out of a restrictive honor system.

Because yeah, Barachiel is the only deity who grants it officially. But there is no alignment requirement for the domain itself.

Does it matter? The way for Hilgya to "cast" dream is to PAY SOMEONE the princely sum of 450 GP. That's all it takes, are we really gonna start looking at obscure domains, prestige classes, and the like to avoid having a high level character have access to something purchasable with the PHB rules and 450 GP?

[rferries]

Does it matter? The way for Hilgya to "cast" dream is to PAY SOMEONE the princely sum of 450 GP. That's all it takes, are we really gonna start looking at obscure domains, prestige classes, and the like to avoid having a high level character have access to something purchasable with the PHB rules and 450 GP?

Won't you feel silly when she casts aspect of the deity (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Herald_domain) in the next strip! :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Won't you feel silly when she casts aspect of the deity (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Herald_domain) in the next strip! :smallbiggrin:

Yes. If that happens I will be quite surprised.

It will not be the first time this comic has surprised me, and it probably won't be the last, but it will be quite a surprise, and you people have my prior permission to say "I told you so" if any explanation other than "someone else cast the spell for her" is ever offered in comic.

[Douglas]

Won't you feel silly when she casts aspect of the deity (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Herald_domain) in the next strip! :smallbiggrin:
It was renamed Visage of the Deity and put on the standard cleric spell list in Spell Compendium.