Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.

What's Dark Imperium?
Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

How much does it cost?
Placeholder Answer.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
The recommended minimum is 750.
However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

Comments on Power Rating.

What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
...A lot.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

Helpful Army Building Guides
Adeptus Custodes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23089844&postcount=368)
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23212682&postcount=799)
Astra Militarum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23229442&postcount=860) by LeSwordfish
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22323358&postcount=680) by LeSwordfish
Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23102387&postcount=394) by Forum Explorer
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22682254&postcount=1287)
Death Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425277&postcount=1268) by LeSwordfish
Deathwatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23067706&postcount=257)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22290159&postcount=518)
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22958139&postcount=936) by Requizen
Space Marines Part I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046630&postcount=154) - Part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046633&postcount=155)

Building on a Budget
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22952114&postcount=902) Outdated
Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22611520&postcount=1068)

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503224-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVII-Tyranids-Finally-Found-A-Friend)
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things)
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517336-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIX-Ro-Ro-Ro-Your-Boute)
* XXX: Imperium After Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525424-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXX-Imperium-After-Dark)
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530992-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXI-Haters-Gonna-Burn)
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538281-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXII-I-Got-99-Guardsmen-and-Morale-Killed-One)
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22597012&postcount=924) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Last Time in The Eternal Darkness...

The new Beta Rules came out and completely cucked a whole bunch of players
Other players say that everything is fine, and there's no problem.
New FAQs says that trying to Melee against a unit in a multi-storey piece of terrain is going to make you sad
Cheesegear was going to start on a Daemons' review run.
Allies are an extremely necessary part of the game. Unfortunately, they are poorly implemented.
Narrative Play; Broken Homebrew Nonsense? Or Totally Fun? You decide!

...Welcome back to The Darkness.

[LudDavenport]

Question from last thread that got drowned in other stuff.


Hmm... so messing with weapon loads for ravenguard Vanguard Veterans. It seems Correct to always give the sargent TH+SS, because he has 3 attacks, and is going to be the last one standing. Generally correct to leave 1-2 without SS for more cheaply eating AP 0 hits. It seems like you shouldn't give the whole squad power weapons, because cost and ablative wounds. Also multching GEC with chain swords.

Right now I am thinking for a x10 Ravenguard Vanguard Veterans Squad

Jump Packs
Sargent with Storm Shield and Thunderhammer
4x veterans with Storm Shields and Power Swords
3x Veterans with Storm Shields and Chain Swords
2x Veterans with double Chain Swords

Math hammer says, even with a chaplain backing them up thet aren't really eating russes(that is what TH death company is for), but should by ok against infantry? Idea is 2 units with their own chaplains ravensguarding in, with a unit of death company also on the board to do what is needed. DC chaplain to come in turn 2 when he can. All of this backed up by 4 units of scouts and a cheap IG brigade. IG brigade will hope 3 massive assault squads in the opponents DZ turn 1 can keep them from being shot to pieces.

Also, current mix for Death Company

Jump Packs(of course)
4xThunder Hammers
4xPower Sword+Bolt Gun
7xChain Sword+Bolt gun

Thunderhammers break things. Powerswords are cheap. Chainswords are cheaper. 22 boltgun shots might cut through some bubble wrap? Not great, but seems better then pistols. Has to wait for turn 2 chaplain most of the time I think? Might be worth cutting back a bit on the ablative chainswords, as the unit stands at 380 points. The three together should hopefully get to charge turn 1 and for the opponent to focus their shooting on either 3+/3++ -1 to hit.

[deuterio12]

Allies are an extremely necessary part of the game. Unfortunately, they are poorly implemented.


Well yeah, when some factions can cherry pick from an half-dozen allies, and others can hardly ally at all, things are going to end screwed up.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ringer list for this weekend's tournament. This'll only get played to fill bye rounds, so I'm not concerned about wrecking face (it'll count as a loss for me either way), but I don't want the players to be bored. :smallsmile: Cadian Brigade Detachment, 1500 points

Company Commander - 38
-Power fist
-Warlord: Grand Strategist
-Kurov's Aquila

Primaris Psyker - 46
-Force staff
-Terrifying Visions, Psychic Barrier

Tempestor Prime - 45
-Bolt pistol, power sword

Lord Commissar - 35
-Bolt pistol, power sword

Infantry Squad - 67
-Lascannon, flamer

Infantry Squad - 67
-Lascannon, flamer

Infantry Squad - 59
-Autocannon, flamer

Infantry Squad - 59
-Autocannon, flamer

Tempestus Scions - 62
-Two grenade launchers, two hotshot lasguns, hotshot laspistol, power sword

Tempestus Scions - 45 (78)
-Two plasma guns, two hotshot lasguns, hotshot laspistol, power sword

Astropath - 36
-Telepathica staff
-Nightshroud

Commissar - 24
-Power fist, bolt pistol

Tempestus Command Squad - 63
-Two hotshot volley guns, two hotshot lasguns, hotshot laspistol
-Medi-pack

Hellhound - 110
-Inferno cannon, heavy flamer

Hellhound - 110
-Inferno cannon, heavy flamer

Hellhound - 110
-Inferno cannon, heavy flamer

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 168
-Battle cannon, three heavy bolters

Leman Russ Executioner - 180
-Executioner plasma cannon, heavy bolter, two plasma cannons

Manticore - 143
-Heavy bolter

[9mm]

Ringer list for this weekend's tournament. This'll only get played to fill bye rounds, so I'm not concerned about wrecking face (it'll count as a loss for me either way), but I don't want the players to be bored. :smallsmile: Cadian Brigade Detachment, 1500 points

Company Commander - 38
-Power fist
-Warlord: Grand Strategist
-Kurov's Aquila

Primaris Psyker - 46
-Force staff
-Terrifying Visions, Psychic Barrier

Tempestor Prime - 45
-Bolt pistol, power sword

Lord Commissar - 35
-Bolt pistol, power sword

Infantry Squad - 67
-Lascannon, flamer

Infantry Squad - 67
-Lascannon, flamer

Infantry Squad - 59
-Autocannon, flamer

Infantry Squad - 59
-Autocannon, flamer

Tempestus Scions - 62
-Two grenade launchers, two hotshot lasguns, hotshot laspistol, power sword

Tempestus Scions - 45 (78)
-Two plasma guns, two hotshot lasguns, hotshot laspistol, power sword

Astropath - 36
-Telepathica staff
-Nightshroud

Commissar - 24
-Power fist, bolt pistol

Tempestus Command Squad - 63
-Two hotshot volley guns, two hotshot lasguns, hotshot laspistol
-Medi-pack

Hellhound - 110
-Inferno cannon, heavy flamer

Hellhound - 110
-Inferno cannon, heavy flamer

Hellhound - 110
-Inferno cannon, heavy flamer

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 168
-Battle cannon, three heavy bolters

Leman Russ Executioner - 180
-Executioner plasma cannon, heavy bolter, two plasma cannons

Manticore - 143
-Heavy bolter

quick spot check says your scions are wrong, they'd need to be 10 man squads to have double grenade launchers and that costs 100+ points.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm actually thinking of setting up a 'tournament' using Narrative missions. It's just the basic, play three games, and I'm mostly doing it to encourage people to play the narrative missions.

I'm thinking the best three to use will be Meat Grinder, Ambush, and Sabotage. Those seem to be the most fun, the most varied, and the easiest to explain.

Though since most people don't play them, I'm thinking of limiting it to 1250 points, because it's kinda important to make it as many turns as possible for pretty much all of those missions.

[LeSwordfish]

quick spot check says your scions are wrong, they'd need to be 10 man squads to have double grenade launchers and that costs 100+ points.

Slower spot check with an actual codex says: no, scion weapons are 2 for five models.

[Cheesegear]

The fact is that each Codex is written stand alone, without taking in regard what allies you can take.

No they aren't. Otherwise every Codex would be good at everything. That's demonstrably not the case.


And they kinda need to be, because a lot of players, perhaps even most players, want mono-faction armies.

But then GW can't sell AM models to Space Marine players.


So each Codex needs to be viable using stuff that's just from that Codex.

They actually don't. What you actually do, is force players to buy new models, and tell them if they don't, then they can't compete.


If you let them actually synergize freely between everyone? The game would fall apart.

This is actually correct.


So yeah, bemoan it if you must, but accept it because I don't think we'll ever get things to the degree you want.

I think the Allies system, now, is fine.
The Beta rules have shafted certain armies straight out of the competitive meta for the next four months, but that's an issue surrounding the fact that those Factions suck, within their own Codex. Except the game is designed with Allies being an intended part of the game...Except then GW says that we're not allowed Allies? I like that we're now locked out of Super-Faction (e.g; <Imperium>) Detachments, however, with taking away our choices, they should've given us back another Detachment. While GW was busy fixing spam and patting each other on the back, they didn't add in a 4th Detachment at 2000 Points, to make up for the fact that they've just shafted Factions that need 'Soup' to win games.
(I acknowledge, however, that this is mostly an Imperium problem)


Admittedly there was a lot of griping on the other side as well when your codex couldn't stand on its own (has that really changed?).

No. And if GW is a business, they never will stand on their own.
(Poor T'au and Necrons...And Orks)


A lot of people are pretty open to narrative etc if you talk to them, but it helps to have some semblance of trust already.

In my meta we played 'Open War with Points' (y'know, the format where Deployment and Objectives are determined by drawing cards, and there's Trap cards?). Except that lasted about two weeks, and we just went back to Maelstrom.

Narrative is a nice place to visit. But I wouldn't want to stay there.


Though since most people don't play them, I'm thinking of limiting it to 1250 points, because it's kinda important to make it as many turns as possible for pretty much all of those missions.

I think in order to discourage net-listing and power-gaming (you'll never get rid of them), smaller tournaments need to focus on the not-2000 Points level. Not letting players use the toys they want is extremely bad forces players to innovate and at least try new things.

[Forum Explorer]

No they aren't. Otherwise every Codex would be good at everything. That's demonstrably not the case.



But then GW can't sell AM models to Space Marine players.



They actually don't. What you actually do, is force players to buy new models, and tell them if they don't, then they can't compete.



This is actually correct.



I think the Allies system, now, is fine.
The Beta rules have shafted certain armies straight out of the competitive meta for the next four months, but that's an issue surrounding the fact that those Factions suck, within their own Codex. Except the game is designed with Allies being an intended part of the game...Except then GW says that we're not allowed Allies? I like that we're now locked out of Super-Faction (e.g; <Imperium>) Detachments, however, with taking away our choices, they should've given us back another Detachment. While GW was busy fixing spam and patting each other on the back, they didn't add in a 4th Detachment at 2000 Points, to make up for the fact that they've just shafted Factions that need 'Soup' to win games.
(I acknowledge, however, that this is mostly an Imperium problem)


I think in order to discourage net-listing and power-gaming (you'll never get rid of them), smaller tournaments need to focus on the not-2000 Points level. Not letting players use the toys they want is extremely bad forces players to innovate and at least try new things.

Not true, an army can be better at something if that makes it weaker at something else.


Sure they can. Also that doesn't have anything to do with what people want.


I find if a Codex isn't viable then it's just not played at all. The Necron codex dropping tripled the number of people bringing Necrons. And I haven't seen Grey Knights in a long time. Of course you can always just make new models for that Codex.


Who needs soup to win? I mean, as things stand you can still ally. But you can't pull Ynnari BS. Did the Imperium have something similar to what they did?


I think smaller point scores are needed so you actually finish your games. The last tournament I went to, the average game only lasted 3 turns. I usually managed to get at least 4 sometimes 5 turns in, but doing so required basically no small talk, and moving quick. In one notable game, it only lasted 1 turn, because we had a rule dispute that we argued over and eventually went to the TO to get settled. (It was against my cousin hilariously enough. He has a policy of no mercy against family, so at tournaments games between us can get nasty.)

[Cheesegear]

Not true, an army can be better at something if that makes it weaker at something else.

Hi T'au. How's that working out?


Sure they can. Also that doesn't have anything to do with what people want.

I know it doesn't. That's basically what I was complaining about at the end of last thread.
That doesn't stop it from being GW's intended business model, and how if you don't get on that train, you are shooting yourself in the foot, and GW would actually hurt their business by giving you want you want.


I find if a Codex isn't viable then it's just not played at all.

Hi T'au.


Who needs soup to win?

The ones in Blue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23013607&postcount=1362).

[Forum Explorer]

Hi T'au. How's that working out?



I know it doesn't. That's basically what I was complaining about at the end of last thread.
That doesn't stop it from being GW's intended business model, and how if you don't get on that train, you are shooting yourself in the foot, and GW would actually hurt their business by giving you want you want.



Hi T'au.



The ones in Blue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23013607&postcount=1362).

Guard do it too. Except they are actually good at shooting.


Okay then.


More like Bye Tau. :smallfrown:


We are talking about taking multiple factions in the same detachment right?

[Cheesegear]

We are talking about taking multiple factions in the same detachment right?

I'm talking about Factions that need Allies to win, in general.
The removal of Soup Detachments (not Soup Armies) is simply another choice that was removed that hurts certain armies more than others - depending on how the army is built.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm talking about Factions that need Allies to win, in general.
The removal of Soup Detachments (not Soup Armies) is simply another choice that was removed that hurts certain armies more than others - depending on how the army is built.

Okay, I'm talking about Soup Detachments. What armies, besides Ynnari, were hurt by that?

[LansXero]

Too much emphasis on milking existing players, not enough in creating new ones. What you need is not to sell AM models to a SM player; its to get a different guy to play AM.

Edit:

Okay, I'm talking about Soup Detachments. What armies, besides Ynnari, were hurt by that?

Sisters of Silence / Assassins / Inquisition, which were useful tools for AM, and tangentially for Sisters,

[Cheesegear]

Okay, I'm talking about Soup Detachments. What armies, besides Ynnari, were hurt by that?

Do you honestly not know, even after I linked you the list?
Or are you just not aware how the Factions in the list, are used?

Sisters of Silence and Assassins received hard nerf. Ministorum Celestine received light nerf. But in reality it means she'll essentially take up an entire Detachment slot to herself.
Inquisitors were amazing for filling <Imperium> small Detachments (the rest of the Faction sucks).

[LeSwordfish]

The fact is that each Codex is written stand alone, without taking in regard what allies you can take.
No they aren't. Otherwise every Codex would be good at everything. That's demonstrably not the case.

This does assume that GW is giving everything the power and degree of balance that they intend to, which is not at all a safe assumption.

[LudDavenport]

Guard do it too. Except they are actually good at shooting.

Nope, because crusaders and Ogryns. Except even they get overshadowed by being able to go out of codex for death company or whatever. Almost like it tau could ally into orks, and provide some good cheap anti-tank they might be worth playing. WOOOOOOOW, mind blown.

[Brookshw]

No they aren't. Otherwise every Codex would be good at everything. That's demonstrably not the case.

...

They actually don't. What you actually do, is force players to buy new models, and tell them if they don't, then they can't compete.


Which is a bit of a let down as GW made a big deal in it's 8e hype about how each unit was going to actually offer something and be viable, not to mention the majority of advertising/photos they offer demonstrate the game being played by mono-armies. Clearly mixing it up is the better competitive option (and cherry picking the better units, durr), but such conduct contrasts the presentation of the game to the consuming public. Torches and pitchforks (or grumbling on websites) can come as no real surprise.

And whatever happened to Xenos being the third side of the triangle of factions along with Chaos and Imperium? Just kidding! Xenos are isolated scum don't you know?

[Cheesegear]

And whatever happened to Xenos being the third side of the triangle of factions along with Chaos and Imperium?

When did that happen?
IIRC, GW said up front that the storyline (and thus, game mechanics) would focus almost exclusively on the Imperium vs. Chaos conflict.

...Which went immediately out the window in their very first campaign box, Imperium vs. Necrons.

Who cares what you said?
Everyone knows what you say doesn't matter, as long as you can throw it out the window and make money off of something else.

(Remember when FLG said 'Rough Riders would be scary in combat'? ...Never forget.)

[Brookshw]

When did that happen?
IIRC, GW said up front that the storyline (and thus, game mechanics) would focus almost exclusively on the Imperium vs. Chaos conflict. It was part of the early hype train and clearly left behind at the station (storyline I agree was always presented as Imp. v. Chaos)



(Remember when FLG said 'Rough Riders would be scary in combat'? ...Never forget.) FLG played the part of the hypeman a little too much as far as I'm concerned, hardly unbiased reviews (and from what I gather from my FLGS, is enjoying some sales benefits strictly forbidden to other retailers).

[Requizen]

Well, to be fair, Rough Riders actually are scarier in combat than they have been previously. It's just that other melee units are better.

FLG seems to play in a fairly casual competitive meta, where they bring theme lists and mono-faction stuff to playtesting. Which is fine, since that's what a lot of players do. But for promoting the ITC, they really fail to test against filth and then downplay how bad it reallyis.

[Cheesegear]

But for promoting the ITC, they really fail to test against filth and then downplay how bad it really is.

I actually couldn'tve said it better myself. As the guys who effectively run (and police) the most competitive events in the world, their assumed naivete is really grating at times.
"This new Codex just dropped and it's going to be hot..." ...It's total garbage and you know it. :smallmad:

[Blackhawk748]

I actually got into an argument with one of the FLG dudes over on Dakka about the Stompas. I said it was hot overpriced garbage, he said it was fine if you invest in it. My rebuttal was that it's already half your flipping army so how much more "investment" do you need?

He didn't really have a response and the thread agreed with me. Here we are nearly a year later and Stompas are still hot garbage.

[Brookshw]

I actually got into an argument with one of the FLG dudes over on Dakka about the Stompas. I said it was hot overpriced garbage, he said it was fine if you invest in it. My rebuttal was that it's already half your flipping army so how much more "investment" do you need?

He didn't really have a response and the thread agreed with me. Here we are nearly a year later and Stompas are still hot garbage.

Heck, pre-codex and without using any movement increases (a'la Swarmlord) I've marked two squads of genestealers across the battlefield and shredded one. Losing such a pricey investment two units which cumulatively were half its points..... heaven help one up against dedicated anti-tank!

[DataNinja]

This does assume that GW is giving everything the power and degree of balance that they intend to, which is not at all a safe assumption.

Yeah. Even if things look good enough on paper, that doesn't mean it'll work out when actually put in with everything else. Let alone compared with other Codices.

And sometimes, I imagine, it just comes down to image. "X faction should be encouraged to look more like this fluffy interpretation... so we'll just make the units you shouldn't take as many of more points." It's a lazy way to do it, of course, but it's probably something that happens.

[Cheesegear]

"X faction should be encouraged to look more like this fluffy interpretation... so we'll just make the units you shouldn't take as many of just actually terrible."

Fixed that for you.

[LudDavenport]

And whatever happened to Xenos being the third side of the triangle of factions along with Chaos and Imperium? Just kidding! Xenos are isolated scum don't you know?

When did that happen?
IIRC, GW said up front that the storyline (and thus, game mechanics) would focus almost exclusively on the Imperium vs. Chaos conflict.


I vaguely remember something like book said, though that might have been as AoS was coming out or something? I dunno, but it would fix some of the issues with the factions as it stands. The main issue though is Eldar keep being to good, so any Xeno's turns into Eldar+some broken thing. Also Necrons wanting to be included, but the obvious fluff issues with necrons+eldar/deldar/Orks. Just letting Tau ally into any other army except like... black templars and Deamons? Would help. Similar for Orks into not Necrons.

Though also that assumes you drop the 1 per detachment commander limit... Really hope that does come down.

[LeSwordfish]

Nope, because crusaders and Ogryns.

Crusaders aren't terribly good, as T3 dudes with no better transport than a Chimera. Are Ogryns/Bullgryns any good? Guard have plenty of options for detachments of better melee troops if they want them, and I can't say I've felt the need for melee in the handful of games I've played with them.

An Ogryn Bodyguard for my inquisitor, though, is an idea as cool and fluffy as it is entirely nonfunctional.

[9mm]

Crusaders aren't terribly good, as T3 dudes with no better transport than a Chimera. Are Ogryns/Bullgryns any good? Guard have plenty of options for detachments of better melee troops if they want them, and I can't say I've felt the need for melee in the handful of games I've played with them.

An Ogryn Bodyguard for my inquisitor, though, is an idea as cool and fluffy as it is entirely nonfunctional.

Bullgryns get paired with Celestene to have 2++ melee deathstar; but they still have to walk up the field and cost a ton of points so most don't bother. Ogryns are for the Old school viking helmets.

[LansXero]

I think that 'can ally with X' is a missed oportunity for sub-faction traits. Sure, it makes no sense that Cadians or Catachans ally with T'au, but a Regimental Doctrine for 'weak scum who got charmed by xenos' would've been acceptable, and would help shore up weaker codices. Dont want them to forego their 'weak' codex in favor of the stronger ally? just cherry pick which units can have the 'traitor' regiment.

Of course, everything requires first that GW gets their act together about balance.

[Cheesegear]

Crusaders aren't terribly good, as T3 dudes with no better transport than a Chimera. Are Ogryns/Bullgryns any good?

You ever heard of a Stormlord and/or Doomhammer?


Guard have plenty of options for detachments of better melee troops if they want them

Yeah. But those units don't have the <Astra Militarum> Keyword, and can't ride in Stormlords.


Bullgryns get paired with Celestene to have 2++ melee deathstar; but they still have to walk up the field...

Does literally no-one know how to use Bullgryns or Crusaders?
I swear I wrote this down (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End/page37).

[Forum Explorer]

Nope, because crusaders and Ogryns. Except even they get overshadowed by being able to go out of codex for death company or whatever. Almost like it tau could ally into orks, and provide some good cheap anti-tank they might be worth playing. WOOOOOOOW, mind blown.

Eh, they aren't that great. Expensive to boot. Also I wouldn't say 'having a melee option' makes them good at melee. It's like Tyranids. They have shooty options. But running a gunline as Tyranids is still weaker then other races gunlines.


Bullgryns get paired with Celestene to have 2++ melee deathstar; but they still have to walk up the field and cost a ton of points so most don't bother. Ogryns are for the Old school viking helmets.

How do you get the 2++? I know they can get a 4++ with Celestine nearby, and have a 2+ save base (which makes Terminators and normal Ogryns cry)


I think that 'can ally with X' is a missed oportunity for sub-faction traits. Sure, it makes no sense that Cadians or Catachans ally with T'au, but a Regimental Doctrine for 'weak scum who got charmed by xenos' would've been acceptable, and would help shore up weaker codices. Dont want them to forego their 'weak' codex in favor of the stronger ally? just cherry pick which units can have the 'traitor' regiment.

Of course, everything requires first that GW gets their act together about balance.

Oh, I agree. I think they should've written in Traitor Guard, Tau Guard, and Genestealer Guard as factions in the Codex.

[Turalisj]

No one would play regular Tau if they had guard options. Heck, no one plays regular Tau anyway. I've gone back to Admech.

[Brookshw]

Oh, I agree. I think they should've written in Traitor Guard, Tau Guard, and Genestealer Guard as factions in the Codex.

And yet we have Genestealer Guard already, so if they already thought of a decent way to do it......why did they stop??

[Cheesegear]

And yet we have Genestealer Guard already, so if they already thought of a decent way to do it......why did they stop??

Because they realised that without access to Guardsmen, Genestealer Cults would have been hot trash, back in 7th Ed.
And the ability to do so was copy-pasted into 8th Ed., as an anachronism.
(Are Monstrous Rending Claws still 0 points?)

[Grim Portent]

And yet we have Genestealer Guard already, so if they already thought of a decent way to do it......why did they stop??

They probably didn't even think of it really.

Ork mercenaries, Kroot mercenaries, Eldar corsair mercenaries, Gue'vesa humans, renagade astartes chapters, so on and so forth. All things that exist in the setting and ally outside their normal faction allegiances, but I think only one has ever gotten rules, and that was Forgeworld Gue'vesa which I'm pretty sure only existed for one edition.

[LudDavenport]

No one would play regular Tau if they had guard options. Heck, no one plays regular Tau anyway. I've gone back to Admech.

While a vanguard of whatever suit isn't utterly terrible(stealth or the XV8 or whatever) and a commander allied into a normal guard army isn't really a tau army... it could still be an army with tau flavor on the table at some level of competitive play. So that is something?


Eh, they aren't that great. Expensive to boot. Also I wouldn't say 'having a melee option' makes them good at melee. It's like Tyranids. They have shooty options. But running a gunline as Tyranids is still weaker then other races gunlines.

They are leagues better then anything in the kroot sub faction. As cheese said, you can stick them in a stormlord and roll them up the board. They can also run up the board at 12"/turn and act as a relatively cheap distraction carnifex. Ogryns have a bunch of ways they can be played. Tau do not have ANY melee options that you might want to bring... besides hounds. Even hounds are just cheap FA choices that can do... things in melee?

Even worse, they can't just phone up their big brother ally in whatever Impirium melee unit they want. Those tyranids? They can pay a small amount of points for GSC and bring a spear head of russes to their shooty game. The only armies that have to be self sufficient AND have a "better at one thing, worse at others" are Tau and Orks. Necrons have options, eldar have deldar, tyranids have GSC/IG, Chaos has Deamons/CSM/LatD/Renigade Knights, Impirium is a giant pulsating mass. Tau are terrible for a number of reasons. So your argument seems to fall on Orks being in a good place right now. How are orks these days?

edit:

They probably didn't even think of it really.

Ork mercenaries, Kroot mercenaries, Eldar corsair mercenaries, Gue'vesa humans, renagade astartes chapters, so on and so forth. All things that exist in the setting and ally outside their normal faction allegiances, but I think only one has ever gotten rules, and that was Forgeworld Gue'vesa which I'm pretty sure only existed for one edition.

...Was like one unit, forgeworld stigma, and was kinda crap even for all of that. But yeah, a mercenary subfaction is a thing I have been wanting for a while.

[Forum Explorer]

While a vanguard of whatever suit isn't utterly terrible(stealth or the XV8 or whatever) and a commander allied into a normal guard army isn't really a tau army... it could still be an army with tau flavor on the table at some level of competitive play. So that is something?



They are leagues better then anything in the kroot sub faction. As cheese said, you can stick them in a stormlord and roll them up the board. They can also run up the board at 12"/turn and act as a relatively cheap distraction carnifex. Ogryns have a bunch of ways they can be played. Tau do not have ANY melee options that you might want to bring... besides hounds. Even hounds are just cheap FA choices that can do... things in melee?

Even worse, they can't just phone up their big brother ally in whatever Impirium melee unit they want. Those tyranids? They can pay a small amount of points for GSC and bring a spear head of russes to their shooty game. The only armies that have to be self sufficient AND have a "better at one thing, worse at others" are Tau and Orks. Necrons have options, eldar have deldar, tyranids have GSC/IG, Chaos has Deamons/CSM/LatD/Renigade Knights, Impirium is a giant pulsating mass. Tau are terrible for a number of reasons. So your argument seems to fall on Orks being in a good place right now. How are orks these days?

Beating Tau isn't impressive this edition. I think they are downright the worst faction in the game right now, including all of the Index Armies.


Orks are more or less fine. Being Index only is starting to hurt, particularly because they have all these command points and almost nothing to spend them on, but overall they are still pretty strong. Assuming GW doesn't pull a Tau, I'd expect Orks to become a top tier army when their Codex drops.

Also what options do Necrons have? Or do you mean in general? Because in which case, Eldar and Dark Eldar are both 'generalists' in that they can shoot and melee equally well with what options are in their book.


Anyways, my argument is that each Codex should be able to stand on it's own, because there are a lot of players who want to be able to go mono-faction. Tyranids are a good example of this. You can ally in GSC or Guard if you want, but Tyranids don't need it. They can be run just by themselves, and do just fine. They can't do a gunline by themselves, but they still have enough shooting that they don't have to ally with someone to provide even a little bit of shooting.

Tau are basically the perfect example of a failed Codex. They have no melee options in the book. They have no Psyker options in their book. Their shooting is not even close to being able to compensate for it. If they could take allies, you'd basically have to in order to compete, and their allies would routinely outperform them, making you ask 'why am I bringing my Tau at all?'

[LeSwordfish]

You ever heard of a Stormlord and/or Doomhammer?



Yeah. But those units don't have the <Astra Militarum> Keyword, and can't ride in Stormlords.



Does literally no-one know how to use Bullgryns or Crusaders?
I swear I wrote this down (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End/page37).

I guess "how do you use bullgryns" "with a 400pt transport and a 200pt character" is a question answered. Is Celestine Adeptus Ministorum? If so, she can lead a vanguard of crusaders and can follow thirty of them in a stormlord across the board.

[LudDavenport]

Anyways, my argument is that each Codex should be able to stand on it's own, because there are a lot of players who want to be able to go mono-faction. Tyranids are a good example of this. You can ally in GSC or Guard if you want, but Tyranids don't need it. They can be run just by themselves, and do just fine. They can't do a gunline by themselves, but they still have enough shooting that they don't have to ally with someone to provide even a little bit of shooting.

Tau are basically the perfect example of a failed Codex. They have no melee options in the book. They have no Psyker options in their book. Their shooting is not even close to being able to compensate for it. If they could take allies, you'd basically have to in order to compete, and their allies would routinely outperform them, making you ask 'why am I bringing my Tau at all?'

I mean, sure, it would be nice if everything could. Still it is important to remember that nids' can bring a decentish gunline. It wouldn't be top tier, but they have units that could do it. The issue with the "isolated" xeno codexes, is it is all down to the codex actually being viable within itself. Allies are important as GW can sometimes forget how numbers work, and an army goes on the shelf.

Oh yeah, if tau could take allies it would be the other way around. You are bringing a commander, and possibly some other suit that isn't terrible. If commanders were allowed normal max 3, it would probably just be a supreme command detachment. As I said, just adding 3x commanders to your guard/orks/whatever isn't a "tau" army... but it would be something with tau in it that might be competitive.

[Renegade Paladin]

quick spot check says your scions are wrong, they'd need to be 10 man squads to have double grenade launchers and that costs 100+ points.

A ten man squad gets quad special weapons. :smalltongue:

[9mm]

How do you get the 2++? I know they can get a 4++ with Celestine nearby, and have a 2+ save base (which makes Terminators and normal Ogryns cry)


Slabshield: add 2 to the save rolls of any model equiped with a slab shield. Its why their base 4+ save becomes 2+, and it works on Celestine's invuln.


A ten man squad gets quad special weapons. :smalltongue:

hence why I qualify anything I post after say 20:00 can't count on my brain to read anything right that late. Glory boys get all the toys.

[Forum Explorer]

Slabshield: add 2 to the save rolls of any model equiped with a slab shield. Its why their base 4+ save becomes 2+, and it works on Celestine's invuln.



hence why I qualify anything I post after say 20:00 can't count on my brain to read anything right that late. Glory boys get all the toys.

Celestine's invun is a 6++ though. So you get a 2+/4++ which is incredible, but I'm not seeing how you get it to a 2++

[Blackhawk748]

They probably didn't even think of it really.

Ork mercenaries, Kroot mercenaries, Eldar corsair mercenaries, Gue'vesa humans, renagade astartes chapters, so on and so forth. All things that exist in the setting and ally outside their normal faction allegiances, but I think only one has ever gotten rules, and that was Forgeworld Gue'vesa which I'm pretty sure only existed for one edition.

And were absolute hot trash may i add.


Eh, they aren't that great. Expensive to boot. Also I wouldn't say 'having a melee option' makes them good at melee. It's like Tyranids. They have shooty options. But running a gunline as Tyranids is still weaker then other races gunlines.

42 points for a better Meganob, how is that not great?


So your argument seems to fall on Orks being in a good place right now. How are orks these days?

Pre Errata we were quite fine actually. Best place we've been in in three editions. Post Errata.... i'll get back to you


Celestine's invun is a 6++ though. So you get a 2+/4++ which is incredible, but I'm not seeing how you get it to a 2++

Her armor gives her a 2+/4++ like it has for every edition.

[LeSwordfish]

Yes but the Bullgryns don't have Celestine's armor. They wouldn't fit.

[Blackhawk748]

Yes but the Bullgryns don't have Celestine's armor. They wouldn't fit.

No, they either get a 4++ from the Brute shield or the Slab Shield gives them a 2+ and Celestine gives them a 6++, making them harder to kill than Meganobs. Seriously, Bullgryns look great to me.

[LeSwordfish]

Yes. So either the bullgryns get a 4++ or a 6++ +2, but neither of those is a 2++. Does Celestine give a +1 instead of her 6++ if the target already has an invuln? That's still not a 2.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean, sure, it would be nice if everything could. Still it is important to remember that nids' can bring a decentish gunline. It wouldn't be top tier, but they have units that could do it. The issue with the "isolated" xeno codexes, is it is all down to the codex actually being viable within itself. Allies are important as GW can sometimes forget how numbers work, and an army goes on the shelf.

Oh yeah, if tau could take allies it would be the other way around. You are bringing a commander, and possibly some other suit that isn't terrible. If commanders were allowed normal max 3, it would probably just be a supreme command detachment. As I said, just adding 3x commanders to your guard/orks/whatever isn't a "tau" army... but it would be something with tau in it that might be competitive.

It's mediocre, and I don't think it can really out perform a different army's gunline. Not counting Tau.

I'm not sure. I mean, okay, in my meta we've got a bias against allying, but even so, things like Grey Knights are just gone. No allies or whatever, just absent entirely.



42 points for a better Meganob, how is that not great?


Her armor gives her a 2+/4++ like it has for every edition.

Because Meganobs might just be the worst thing in the Ork Index? I mean, the fact that you're correct that Bullgryns are better isn't doing the Meganobs any favors. But seriously, is there anything worse then Meganobs? I mean, I still run them because I like them, but I'm not going to pretend they don't suck.

Someone claimed Bullgryns could get a 2+ invulnerable from Celestine, and I want to know how.

[Blackhawk748]

Yes. So either the bullgryns get a 4++ or a 6++ +2, but neither of those is a 2++. Does Celestine give a +1 instead of her 6++ if the target already has an invuln? That's still not a 2.

She increases Shield of Faith by one (so a 5++). I cant say if Slabshields have new wording or something as i only have the Index, so it may be how the Bullgryns interact.


Because Meganobs might just be the worst thing in the Ork Index? I mean, the fact that you're correct that Bullgryns are better isn't doing the Meganobs any favors. But seriously, is there anything worse then Meganobs? I mean, I still run them because I like them, but I'm not going to pretend they don't suck.

Someone claimed Bullgryns could get a 2+ invulnerable from Celestine, and I want to know how.

Lootas and (now) Kommandoes. Meganobs would be ok, if they werent forced to take PKs. But ok point, but, Bullgryns are better than Nobz, and Nobz arent even bad.

[Forum Explorer]

She increases Shield of Faith by one (so a 5++). I cant say if Slabshields have new wording or something as i only have the Index, so it may be how the Bullgryns interact.



Lootas and (now) Kommandoes. Meganobs would be ok, if they werent forced to take PKs. But ok point, but, Bullgryns are better than Nobz, and Nobz arent even bad.

Bullgryms can't have Shield of Faith.


Lootas are alright. You either need to park them in a Trukk/Battlewagon or put a Big Mek beside them so they don't just immediately die, but they still throw out a respectable amount of firepower. They are also pretty much the only thing worth using the Ork Stratagem on.

Kommandoes are just slow now. They still do what they did, but not until Turn 2. I think one unit is fine but investing heavily into them is a bad idea.

Hmm, that's an interesting claim. I'm not sure I agree, 26 points is a Nob with a Big Choppa. It has one less Toughness and Wound plus a worse save, but is 20 points cheaper, is effectively fearless, and has lots of synergy with other stuff. Bullgryns get an extra attack on the charge, are LD 8 so they rarely need to worry about morale anyways, and can actually use stratagems. With Celestine backing them, Bullgryns are certainly better, but then that's getting expensive. I'll put them at equal which is certainly impressive.

[Grim Portent]

I think the 2++ Ogryn is specifically an Ogryn Bodyguard with the Deathmask and a Slabshield. Deathmask gives a 4++, Slabshield buffs that to 2++.

Not familiar with any way to make normal Bullgryn 2++.

[JNAProductions]

Vexila Defensor is 5++.

Slabshield makes that 3++.

Psychic Barrier for 2++.

[Blackhawk748]

Bullgryms can't have Shield of Faith.

Yes, but Celestine hands out a 6++ to anyone who is in Astra Militarum or Adeptus Munisitorum, so i was wondering if Slabshields did something weird with that.


Lootas are alright. You either need to park them in a Trukk/Battlewagon or put a Big Mek beside them so they don't just immediately die, but they still throw out a respectable amount of firepower. They are also pretty much the only thing worth using the Ork Stratagem on.

Or i could be putting Tankbustas in the Wagon or Trukk and they could actually be useful. Same with the KFF, it could be protecting KMKs or, hell, normal Kannons instead of Lootas. I dropped my Lootas like a hot potatoe when i saw how good autocannons are this Ed (hint: they arent) and just brought more KMKs. The fact that Lootas need a babysitter now is a further slap in the face to my once venerable and honored Deff Chuckas.



Kommandoes are just slow now. They still do what they did, but not until Turn 2. I think one unit is fine but investing heavily into them is a bad idea.

So useless, as i needed them out Turn 1 to tie up that Imp Guard gunline and that flipping Basilisk so my boyz could make it across the board.



Hmm, that's an interesting claim. I'm not sure I agree, 26 points is a Nob with a Big Choppa. It has one less Toughness and Wound plus a worse save, but is 20 points cheaper, is effectively fearless, and has lots of synergy with other stuff. Bullgryns get an extra attack on the charge, are LD 8 so they rarely need to worry about morale anyways, and can actually use stratagems. With Celestine backing them, Bullgryns are certainly better, but then that's getting expensive. I'll put them at equal which is certainly impressive.

Bullgryns can also receive Orders (not sure what thats worth, but it is a thing) and can have a 4++ independent of other characters, while Nobs can have Powa Choppas (i will not call it a stabba) or Killsaws (as well as Big Choppas) but that starts getting expensive with the Saws. Honestly i say Bullgryns hedge them out. Nobs may have a bit more offense (as they can tailor their weapons) Bullgryns are basically mini Warbosses and actually can have an Invuln in melee (where Orks sorely need it)

[Forum Explorer]

Yes, but Celestine hands out a 6++ to anyone who is in Astra Militarum or Adeptus Munisitorum, so i was wondering if Slabshields did something weird with that.



Or i could be putting Tankbustas in the Wagon or Trukk and they could actually be useful. Same with the KFF, it could be protecting KMKs or, hell, normal Kannons instead of Lootas. I dropped my Lootas like a hot potatoe when i saw how good autocannons are this Ed (hint: they arent) and just brought more KMKs. The fact that Lootas need a babysitter now is a further slap in the face to my once venerable and honored Deff Chuckas.




So useless, as i needed them out Turn 1 to tie up that Imp Guard gunline and that flipping Basilisk so my boyz could make it across the board.




Bullgryns can also receive Orders (not sure what thats worth, but it is a thing) and can have a 4++ independent of other characters, while Nobs can have Powa Choppas (i will not call it a stabba) or Killsaws (as well as Big Choppas) but that starts getting expensive with the Saws. Honestly i say Bullgryns hedge them out. Nobs may have a bit more offense (as they can tailor their weapons) Bullgryns are basically mini Warbosses and actually can have an Invuln in melee (where Orks sorely need it)

It would make the 6++ into a 4++. Er, assuming any of the FAQs having changed that. I haven't actually checked if they altered Bullgryms in anyway.

Sure, there are better options, but that doesn't make the Lootas bad. Sure, I'd recommend something else if people were buying an Ork army right now, but if they already had Lootas, then they can still use them.

Actually I did think of a worse unit, Flash Gitz. No armor, short range, heavy weapon. :smallyuk:


It's a shame you still almost never see Bullgryns.

[Blackhawk748]

It would make the 6++ into a 4++. Er, assuming any of the FAQs having changed that. I haven't actually checked if they altered Bullgryms in anyway.

Well then, Slabshields + Celestine it is then, cuz hot damn.


Sure, there are better options, but that doesn't make the Lootas bad. Sure, I'd recommend something else if people were buying an Ork army right now, but if they already had Lootas, then they can still use them.

Actually I did think of a worse unit, Flash Gitz. No armor, short range, heavy weapon. :smallyuk:

Being the worst at your roll inside the army (killing light vehicles and MCs) is by definition bad. Hopefully they get some Stratagem or a save increase while in cover to get them back at it. Or you just make them Blood Axes, cuz lets not kid ourselves, Blood Axes are gonna have -1 to Hit outside of 12" and the Infiltrate Stratagem, cuz who else would?

Yes, Flash Gitz suck, just like they did in 7th. Once they took away their armor (sweet Mork why? Have you seen those pauldrons??) and their Ignores Cover they went right past bad and into "old Vespid" territory. 8th ed is just kicking them while they're buried up to their neck.



It's a shame you still almost never see Bullgryns.

It just goes to show how good gunlines are. A melee unit that is actually good doesnt get taken cuz you can just have more guns.

[Cheesegear]

It just goes to show how good gunlines are. A melee unit that is actually good doesnt get taken cuz you can just have more guns.

Nailed it.

It's also important to remember that without SUAs happening on Turn 1 anymore, Bullgryns and Crusaders are no longer required for a go-second counter Charge, or to be used as bubble wrap for the aforementioned gunline.

[Forum Explorer]

Well then, Slabshields + Celestine it is then, cuz hot damn.



Being the worst at your roll inside the army (killing light vehicles and MCs) is by definition bad. Hopefully they get some Stratagem or a save increase while in cover to get them back at it. Or you just make them Blood Axes, cuz lets not kid ourselves, Blood Axes are gonna have -1 to Hit outside of 12" and the Infiltrate Stratagem, cuz who else would?

Yes, Flash Gitz suck, just like they did in 7th. Once they took away their armor (sweet Mork why? Have you seen those pauldrons??) and their Ignores Cover they went right past bad and into "old Vespid" territory. 8th ed is just kicking them while they're buried up to their neck.



It just goes to show how good gunlines are. A melee unit that is actually good doesnt get taken cuz you can just have more guns.

It is pretty crazy. Expensive, but still wow.

Fair enough. Though the last bunch of Codexes gives me hope that they realized that the -1 outside of 12 is a bad trait, and they'll hopefully get rid of it. I mean, Dark Eldar of all factions didn't get it, so hopefully that means no one else will. Now they just need to change Altiocs trait as well.

I was thinking it was more along the lines of 'Why take Bullgryms, which are good, when I can get Death Company, which are better? It's much easier to find Space Marines for cheap then it is Ogryn models, and you can ally without penalty so why not?

[Brookshw]

Before we stray too far from orks & nobz, kustom skorchas. I'm tempted, but they're pricey, and big choppas are sitting right there. Thoughts?

[Forum Explorer]

Before we stray too far from orks & nobz, kustom skorchas. I'm tempted, but they're pricey, and big choppas are sitting right there. Thoughts?

You can actually take both. But that is insanely expensive. I think they are just too pricey overall.

[Blackhawk748]

It is pretty crazy. Expensive, but still wow.

Fair enough. Though the last bunch of Codexes gives me hope that they realized that the -1 outside of 12 is a bad trait, and they'll hopefully get rid of it. I mean, Dark Eldar of all factions didn't get it, so hopefully that means no one else will. Now they just need to change Altiocs trait as well.

I was thinking it was more along the lines of 'Why take Bullgryms, which are good, when I can get Death Company, which are better? It's much easier to find Space Marines for cheap then it is Ogryn models, and you can ally without penalty so why not?

Im actually ok with the trait itself, its just that Eldar had Rangers and so they have a -2 to get hit, which is just disgusting.

Because Death Company doesnt take bullets to the face as well as Bullgryns?


Before we stray too far from orks & nobz, kustom skorchas. I'm tempted, but they're pricey, and big choppas are sitting right there. Thoughts?

You mean Kombi Skorchas right? They're ok, i mean, they were always ok it was just the whole one shot thing was crap. Personally im a Rokkit guy.

[Forum Explorer]

Im actually ok with the trait itself, its just that Eldar had Rangers and so they have a -2 to get hit, which is just disgusting.

Because Death Company doesnt take bullets to the face as well as Bullgryns?



You mean Kombi Skorchas right? They're ok, i mean, they were always ok it was just the whole one shot thing was crap. Personally im a Rokkit guy.

It's why I say Altioc is the problem, because Eldar just have so many ways to stack it. Rangers, Conceal, Flyers, Lightning Reflexes. It gets ridiculous.

Stygies, Raven Guard, and Alpha Legion? Well, they aren't nearly as big of a problem. Honestly, I'd be just as fine with them saying penalties to hit can't stack, but that lets Heavy Weapons move and fire without penalty. But only against those armies.


On a side note, I think Slaanash daemons trait should've been -1 to hit when within 12 inches.

[Brookshw]

You mean Kombi Skorchas right? They're ok, i mean, they were always ok it was just the whole one shot thing was crap. Personally im a Rokkit guy.

Yup, those buggers. Pricey, and given the range hard time deciding if they're worth it instead of sticking w/ just big choppas.

[Blackhawk748]

Yup, those buggers. Pricey, and given the range hard time deciding if they're worth it instead of sticking w/ just big choppas.

Im a Killsaw guy personally, but ya, i would say screw the guns. Orks are horrible at shooting and the only reason Kommandoes had Burnas was to use them as Power Swords.

[Requizen]

Got a game in against an Imperium mix list, Primaris Hellblaster/Aggressor gunline with Basilisks and Shield Captains. I ran the list Ibposted last thread, Vault with Destroyers and Novokh Wraiths.

Very close game, he unloaded his whole army into the Wraiths to drop them T1, but then the Vault and Destroyers were dropping units every turn. That said, Hellblasters + Captain + Lieutenant + Ancient is insane. If he was more optimized (he had no Apocathery and was running Salamanders) I think it would have been a much harder game.

However, a Vault in the middle of an army with Cosmic Fire is just the most beautiful thing my little necrodermis heart has ever seen.

[9mm]

Harlequins and Deathwatch Codexes coming in May. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/27/may-white-dwarf-preview-27-aprgw-homepage-post-2/)

[LeSwordfish]

I played Planetstrike against tyranids today - or, a watered-down version of it so we didn't have to learn too many new rules.

The Kasr Lutien Hounds
Tank Commander - Executioner
Company Commander - Powersword, Plasma Pistol
Guardsman Squad - Plasma, Missile Launcher, vox - Chimera
Guardsman Squad - Plasma, Missile Launcher, vox - Chimera
Guardsman Squad - Plasma, Missile Launcher, vox - Chimera
Command Squad - flamer, medpack, regimental standard, vox - chimera
Tech-priest engineer
Special Weapons Squad - sniper rifles
Special Weapons Squad - sniper rifles
Heavy Weapons Squad - Missile Launchers
Leman Russ
Leman Russ Vanquisher

Inquisitor Solomon Lok Alis Meredith

The Leviathan Menace
Tervigon
Broodlord
Winged hive tyrant
20 Termagaunts
30 Termagaunts
10 Genestealers
3 Tyranid Warriors with guns
3 tyranid warriors with melee weapons
3 Venomthropes
Carnifex
Tyrannofex


I have to setup spread out all over the board, and end up basically putting an infantry squad on each objective, with my tanks nearer the middle ready to respond. Turns out when you actually deploy thirty guardsmen instead of just saying "theyre in tanks" it takes a while.
My opponent rolls for her reserves and gets the larger squad of gaunts, the venomthropes, the broodlord, and all the monsters. Her Firestorm blows away both my special weapon squads and most of the heavy weapon squad, though thankfully misses my tanks. Her actual shooting is less effective, badly damaging the Vanquisher and a chimera, but killing neither. I have to spend several command points protecting the Vanquisher, because i'm going to really need it soon.
The tech-priest engineer hops out and repairs the Vanquisher. My plan for the turn is to kill the Venomthropes first with my nearest infantry - or just one of them, removing their bonus from the <Monster> units - and then use the vanquisher and Executioner to kill the tervigon, and then use the punisher emplacement to kill a bunch of gaunts.
This doesn't really work - between their own aura and staggering luck on saves and Leviathan saves, I end up shooting all the nearby infantry, all my Chimeras that are in range, and eventually, a little sourly, the punisher cannon itself: that does seven wounds straight up and removes all three. Once that's done, by popping the Cadian +1 to hit stratagem, the Executioner and Vanquisher kill the Tervigon neatly. I had been hoping to fire sniper weapons at the broodlord to leave them without synapse nearby, but... well, yeah.
In her turn, the hive tyrant kills the chimera and charges and kills the techpriest. Both the genestealers and the big block of twenty termagaunts come on, and land near the broodlord ready to swarm over my tanks. They charge the nearest infantry squad and completely eradicate it, before moving onto an objective vacated by my snipers. The Tyrannofex and carnifex kill the vanquisher together. I use the Grenadiers strategy when the broodlord charges in the hopes of killing it and forcing the gaunts to take morale tests - a barrage of frag grenades gets it down to one wound, but then it and the genestealers make the charge and slice up the infantry squad nicely. The sargeant remains alive, and makes a daring, desperate chainsword attack in the hope of finishing it off... nope, invulnerable save.
(My inquisitor and two of my infantry squads are quite a way away from the rest of the fight, by the way - I was assuming more would come on from the backline.)
In my second turn, I finally get to turn the punisher cannon and the chimera heavy flamers on the gaunts. Between those, I roast about half of them - but, of course, they're still on my objectives. The executioner turns to shoot at the Hive Tyrant but a 4+ invuln is pretty good and I can only deal a handful of wounds.
The last arrivals - the tyranid warriors - arrive, shoring up the faltering synapse and preparing to charge one of my infantry squads. Between the three monsters, my Leman Russ is killed and the Executioner is crippled. My infantry squad does a decent job against a melee tyranid warrior charge but crit-fails morale and flees. Termigaunts use Scorchpods and get my executioner down to one wound. I'm very aware of how close this game is going to be and would like my warlord to not be dead please and thank you, so I spend quite a few command points protecting it, including Take Cover, my re-roll, and even allowing it to fight first when they eventually charge. Out of about twenty attacks I take three wounds... save two. Re-roll... it's good!
Time is about to be called, so in my third turn I race chimeras across the battlefield onto objectives. My inquisitor charges the Warriors - she kills one and survives, but there's still two of them and they're Objective Secured and she isn't. More heavy flamers into gaunts kills most of them, but the small squad is just straight-up out of range.
At the end of the game I hold three objectives and have Slain The Warlord - I have one squad of infantry, my command squad, three chimeras, a crippled tank, and my <Characters> left. She has three objectives and First Blood, and has six Warriors, Carnifex, Tyrannofex, Hive Tyrant, and genestealers, all almost uninjured. I think I would absolutely lose if the game went on, but for now... we draw.


It was a bit last-minute, so maybe didn't turn out as much like Planetstrike as it could have done - we walked in and saw the cool-but-impractical board that the local GW has set up and decided to make proper use of it. We've planned for another, longer game in a few weeks, and next time will be probably bringing lists more tailored for the situation. For her, that means building less defensively around the tervigon/venomthrope block. For me... more leman russes? Another infantry squad? I might find room for some Scions, in order to go character-hunting more effectively.

[LudDavenport]

...so I spend quite a few command points protecting it, including Take Cover, my re-roll, and even allowing it to fight first when they eventually charge...

Errata for the AM codex clarifies Take cover is infantry only. Which makes a fair bit of sense, a tank can't exactly dive into a crater or behind some rocks.

[LeSwordfish]

Dang, I only ever used it for tanks.

[Blackhawk748]

Dang, I only ever used it for tanks.

Cuz its pretty much the only thing in the AM Dex with armor decent enough to take advantage of it. Well, besides Bullgryns.

[LudDavenport]

Cuz its pretty much the only thing in the AM Dex with armor decent enough to take advantage of it. Well, besides Bullgryns.

I mean, if you have a unit of scions in cover... a 2+ save is nice.

[Blackhawk748]

I mean, if you have a unit of scions in cover... a 2+ save is nice.

Oh ya, Scions arent their own Dex.... Honestly Scions get dropped in to annhilate a single target and then promptly die there after. I mean, if you want them to live or just absorb stupid amounts of firepower you could, but the Stratagem is way better on a tank.

[LeSwordfish]

Give Crusaders a 2+ Invulnerable?

EDIT: Actually, this would get us to the magic 2++ Bullgryns. Slabshields+Vexilla+Take Cover.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh ya, Scions arent their own Dex.... Honestly Scions get dropped in to annhilate a single target and then promptly die there after. I mean, if you want them to live or just absorb stupid amounts of firepower you could, but the Stratagem is way better on a tank.

Depends on the target. :smallwink: I find that Ork players tend to just surge forward and neglect their backfield or leave it in the hands of Grots and the Weirdboyz they used for Warpath and Da Jump, so dropping storm troopers into their deployment zone to take objectives and wreck havoc can work for two or three turns.

[LeSwordfish]

Depends on the target. :smallwink: I find that Ork players tend to just surge forward and neglect their backfield or leave it in the hands of Grots and the Weirdboyz they used for Warpath and Da Jump, so dropping storm troopers into their deployment zone to take objectives and wreck havoc can work for two or three turns.

I've actually just bought a couple of boxes of Scions. Assuming I want to go with ordinary troopers not command squads, how should I gear them out? I'm thinking one squad with 2x plasma, one with 2x Volley guns.

[Renegade Paladin]

I've actually just bought a couple of boxes of Scions. Assuming I want to go with ordinary troopers not command squads, how should I gear them out? I'm thinking one squad with 2x plasma, one with 2x Volley guns.
Both are good. Yesterday, I ran a squad with 2x plasma, one with 2x grenade launchers (which were hell on the aforementioned Grots), and a command squad with 2x volley guns and a medi-pack. It worked wonders.

[LudDavenport]

Both are good. Yesterday, I ran a squad with 2x plasma, one with 2x grenade launchers (which were hell on the aforementioned Grots), and a command squad with 2x volley guns and a medi-pack. It worked wonders.

Not quad plasma on the command squad? Backed with a tempestor for rerolling 1s.

[Renegade Paladin]

Not quad plasma on the command squad? Backed with a tempestor for rerolling 1s.
Didn't have the points for it. That's a hugely expensive unit for only four bodies, and considering my opponents were Orks, Guard, and more Orks, not spending 78 points on plasma turned out to be a pretty good decision. :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

Thats worth remembering for my use-case, actually - if I'm not having a tempestor, they'll be blowing themselves up on overcharge.

[9mm]

Didn't have the points for it. That's a hugely expensive unit for only four bodies, and considering my opponents were Orks, Guard, and more Orks, not spending 78 points on plasma turned out to be a pretty good decision. :smalltongue:

I've said it before, I'll say it again, people are overvaluing plasma guns. If this is a true hoard body meta, plasma kills too few models, grenade launchers are nearly as good against Mecs, and far better against Gecs.

[Cheesegear]

Not quad plasma on the command squad?

Plasma is only good against Marines and models with T7+. In short; That's not the meta.

However, Deathwatch is rumoured to be chock-full of Primaris Marines. Given Power Creep, it's likely to make everything else look like garbage.

[LudDavenport]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, people are overvaluing plasma guns. If this is a true hoard body meta, plasma kills too few models, grenade launchers are nearly as good against Mecs, and far better against Gecs.

Grenade Launchers do fit the need of a >9" 1/2 range for MT regiments to matter, and D6 exploding on 6+ las shots...
Blegh.

[Forum Explorer]

Had a really fun game against Guard today.

Battalion Detachment (Saim Hann)
HQ
Farseer with Singing Spear: 115
Avatar: 250
Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance (Nova Lance): 108



Elites
7 Striking Scorpians with Exarch with Scorpion's Claw: 109
7 Howling Banshees with Exarch with Executioner: 94
5 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 120
5 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons: 200


Troops
8 Dire Avengers with Exarch with power Galive and Shimmerfield: 116
5 Rangers: 60
10 Guardians: 80


Fast Attack


Heavy Support
Falcon with Pulse Laser and 2 Shurikan Cannons: 145
5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 175
Wraithlord with Brightlance, Shurikan Cannon and 2 Shurikan Catapults: 133

Supreme Command Detachment
1 Spiritseer with Witch Staff: 65
1 Spiritseer with Witch Staff: 65
1 Warlock with Witchblade: 55
1 Warlock with Witchblade: 55
1 Warlock with Witchblade: 55

Total: 2000


Battalion (Cadian)
Pask in a Punisher, lascannon, plasma sponsons
Leman Russ Commander, Plasma sponsons, Lascannon
Leman Russ Commander, Plasma Sponsons, Lascannon

30 Guardsmen

4-5 Bullgryns, with slabshields
Astropath
Commissar (warlord)
Techpriest Engineseer
1 Chimera for Bullgryns

2 Sentinals with Powerlifters (Forgeworld)
1 Scout tank (Forgeworld, no idea of it's proper name)

2 Wryverns

1 Shadowsword


The mission is the new Chapter Approved Maelstrom, where you discard your hand every turn.

I get first turn, tie up his Wryverns with my Banshees and Autarch for a turn, kill the powerlifter sentinels, and damage his scout tank. Pask survives with Take Cover (Yes, I realize that shouldn't work now), allowing him to take no damage from my Dark Reapers. My snipers get a chance to shine by killing his Astropath and blow it. My Conceal Warlock fails to cast his power. His turn, he kills my Falcon, my Guardians, Rangers, and sends his Bullgryns into my Autarch, just barely managing to kill him for Kingslayer. The Shadowsword nukes my Wraithlord and charges my Dire Avengers + Fire Dragons

Second Turn, I draw Combined Strike. I smite the scout tank to death, and bring Pask down to 1 wound, but I can't just finish him in the shooting phase. My Wraiths and Avatar charge him and finish him off. Meanwhile my Banshees tie up both Wryverns again, damaging them enough so they are both down a level and kill a Bullgryn (Empower is so good on Banshees). My Dire Avengers somehow deal 4 damage in CC to the Shadowsword, while my Fire Dragons disengage. My Conceal Warlock fails to cast his power. His turn, a Leman Russ charges forward to take an Objective, the Bullgryns finish off the Banshees, the Shadowsword kills 2 Wraithguard, his Chimera burns Empower Warlock to death, while everything remaining shoots my Avatar and brings it down to 1 wound (Protect is so good on everything)

Third Turn, my Fire Dragons, Farseer, Protect Spiritseer, and Enhance Warlock kills the Leman Russ that ran forward. My Conceal Warlock blows himself up, taking my Dark Reaper Exarch with him. My Wraithguard, Dark Reapers, and Avatar bring the other Leman Russ down to 3 wounds. My Avatar fails the 6 inch charge, even with the reroll. My Wraithguard charge some Guardsmen, just to get in front of the Avatar to shield him. His turn, he repairs the Leman Russ to 6 wounds, kills my Wraithguard who can't make a 3+ save this turn, finishes off the Avatar with the Leman Russ, flames the Quicken Spiritseer to death, and the Shadowsword who then charges the Fire Dragons again, eating 5 damage from Overwatch, and drags my Enhance Warlock in as well. At this point I've got 1 Fire Dragon, 1 Dire Avenger, 7 Scorpions, Farseer, Spiritseer, 1 Warlock, and 3 Dark Reapers left. So it's feeling tight.

Turn 4, my Dire Avenger exarch hides, I kill the last Leman Russ, my Scorpions charge, killing the Astropath, some Guardsmen, and wounding the Commissar. My Warlock duels the Shadowsword, doing no damage, but not dying either. I get Masters of Fate, and manifest the 3 powers, scoring an easy 2 points. He kills the Warlock with the Shadowsword's Twin Heavy Bolter, Wryverns finish off the Fire Dragon, and the Shadowword nukes the Dark Reapers.

Turn 5 my Scorpions kill the Commissar, and some Guardsmen. My psykers throw down as much protection they can on them. His turn, the Shadowsword kills some Scorpions, who are brought down to just my Exarch, but are still standing. His Chimera is way out of position and can't do anything (and thus, neither can the Bullgryns who are inside). The game goes on to turn 6.

Turn 6 I finish off a unit of Guardsmen, wound the Enginseer but can't finish it, hide the Scorpion Exarch in some cover, and throw Protect on the Farseer. The Shadowsword kills my hiding Dire Avenger (Barely, came down to a single 4+ invulnerable), his Chimera jumps on an Objective for the last turn, and the Scorpion takes both Wryverns worth of fire power which leaves me with just my Farseer and Protect Seer remaining.

Game Ends. Score is 17-15 for the Eldar.

Overall: Such a close close game. If I hadn't rolled so well for my D3 objectives, or drawn so many of them (I had Combined Strike, Ascendecy, Behind Enemy Lines, and Master of Runes that I got for 3,1,3, 2 points respectively, I also drew Khaine's Wrath, Overwhelming Firepower, and Master the Warp) or if my Avatar hadn't failed his charge/the Wraithguard surviving for just one more unit. Or if he had decided to focus on Objectives instead of trying to table me. I don't think he realized just how close the scores were.

The Shadowsword was hilarious. It didn't have any good targets after turn 1, so it ran around being a melee unit. It also took way too much damage from Eldar infantry melee attacks. That didn't matter, and overall it simply didn't get to do too much, for all that I didn't have an answer for it.

Tying up, and damaging the Wryverns enough to drop them a level was a critical part of the game. If they had just got to fire constantly, I think I would've taken too much damage. Waiting til turn 2 for my SUA units to show up wasn't bad. I think my first turn would've been too deadly otherwise as well.

Final Note: That was downright the most fun I've had playing Maelstrom. Constantly flushing our hands of cards made claiming objectives fun and frantic, while also letting us pull out a lot of cards. We both had bad turns where we got pretty much nothing, but not being stuck with the garbage and tossing 1 per turn was so nice.

[9mm]

Deathwatch drops next week, includes mixed Primaris. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/29/the-leviadon-emerges-legends-return-and-the-deathwatch-strike/)

[Cheesegear]

Deathwatch drops next week, includes mixed Primaris. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/29/the-leviadon-emerges-legends-return-and-the-deathwatch-strike/)

Are you excited? Sad? Expecting Power Creep?
Or are you pulling a BoLS where you just repeat the ad that people have already seen?

[Turalisj]

Are you excited? Sad? Expecting Power Creep?
Or are you pulling a BoLS where you just repeat the ad that people have already seen?

Cautiously optimistic but not holding my breath. If they actually give Primaris SIA without a major points hike, I'll be both impressed and giving all my intercessors silver arms. But we'll have to see.

[LeSwordfish]

Are you excited? Sad? Expecting Power Creep?
Or are you pulling a BoLS where you just repeat the ad that people have already seen?

God ****ing forbid people share news here.

[Cheesegear]

God ****ing forbid people share news here.

That's not what I said, and you know it.
What I said was; What's the point of re-posting, without your own PoV to add new context?

Is anyone on this thread not able to see Warhammer-Community posts as they come out?
Is a link in this thread, really the way that people in this thread, access Warhammer-Community news? If it is, then I apologise immediately.

I don't understand the value of posting just the link. Which is why BoLS and SpikeyBits cop the same flakk. They don't add anything new. They're just re-posting. That's not content.

A few posts up (#81), I commented that Deathwatch were coming out with masses of Primaris. How did I know that?

[LeSwordfish]

No, you were just really snotty and superior about someone posting a link. You don't need to act as the guardian of debate here: you can see a post that doesn't add much and just ignore it rather than demanding they add more to raise to your standards.

[Cheesegear]

No, you were just really snotty and superior about someone posting a link. You don't need to act as the guardian of debate here: you can see a post that doesn't add much and just ignore it rather than demanding they add more to raise to your standards.

Or I can comment on it, because it's a message board.

I can ask the poster's opinion on the link, since they didn't provide one, or I can call it out.
Or I can do what I did, which is do both. Comparing to an entire site that does the exact same thing, and gets flakk for it.

I'm not saying don't post links. I'm not even saying don't post Warhammer-Community posts verbatim (you know the site).
I'm saying add new context.
Or don't.
Whatever.

[Gauntlet]

Is a link in this thread, really the way that people in this thread, access Warhammer-Community news?

Unless I'm specifically looking for an article or spoiler about something I play, I don't regularly check warhammer-community, so yeah, the first thing that pointed me to this news was that link above.

I feel like this isn't going to be super important, since Primaris all have relatively specialised roles. If Reivers in the squad lets it SUA (even on flanks), that makes Hellblasters seem like an interesting addition. Or if Intercessors / Inceptors / Aggressors can get special issue ammunition.

[Cheesegear]

Unless I'm specifically looking for an article or spoiler about something I play, I don't regularly check warhammer-community, so yeah, the first thing that pointed me to this news was that link above.

You aren't getting news from their Facebook?

Okay. Someone gets value of posting links in this thread.
Now I know.

What gets me, is that if I hadn't compared to BoLS, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Ah well, too late to delete now, it's been quoted and commented on.

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, I would have objected to the tone and the discussion-policing even if it hadn't been for that... but comparing to BOLS is just not on :smalltongue:

[Tome]

Agreed. Comparing someone to BoLS is not on. :smallbiggrin:

I'm kind of curious to see how it turns out. Intercessors with SIA could be pretty cool.

Didn't you have a DW army CG? I recall seeing a conversion of papa smurf you did.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yeah I also very much appreciate the heads-up that something new was posted. Some of us aren't ultra-fans, and use this thread as our main community-page for the hobby.

[Cheesegear]

Cautiously optimistic but not holding my breath. If they actually give Primaris SIA without a major points hike, I'll be both impressed and giving all my intercessors silver arms. But we'll have to see.

The problem is, that GW seems to think that versatility warrants a price hike.
A Deathwatch Veteran, currently, costs 19 Points. Does not have Chapter Tactics, does have SIA, is in the Troops slot.
A Company/Sternguard/Vanguard Veteran, costs 16 Points. Does have Chapter Tactics, is in the Elites slot.

With that in mind, I am expecting Primaris models to be at least 3 Points - if not an even 5 - Points higher than their Codex counterparts.
What will make or break them, is their individual abilities.

However, just as a Patrol, I can see myself taking 10-20 Intercessors in the Troops slot, if they have AP-2 or even -3 as standard.
That's incredibly broken. Even at 21 Points per model (current Codex Intercessors are 18).


Didn't you have a DW army CG? I recall seeing a conversion of papa smurf you did.

I do.
I've been waiting for this Codex for a while, since I know Intercessors with SIA at a reasonable points cost, will break my armies wide open. Due to the massive firepower increase that a potential AP-2 in the Troops slot would mean, especially as Turn 1-SUA isn't a thing. I couldn't really care less about anything else, other than Deathwatch Intercessors... Deathwatch Inceptors are also likely to be a huge draw.

Providing a reasonable points hike.

[Brookshw]

Yeah I also very much appreciate the heads-up that something new was posted.

+1, I'm in favor of sharing news.

On topic, looks like it'll make DW more relevant now, previously they seemed to have fallen to the wayside.

[Cheesegear]

On topic, looks like it'll make DW more relevant now, previously they seemed to have fallen to the wayside.

That's like saying Space Wolves will be more relevant when they're Codex comes out.
Why are they irrelevant, now?

They've fallen to the wayside because they don't have a Codex. Not because they're bad.
The thing that killed every Faction in Index Imperium: I was that Codex: Space Marines was the first release of the entire edition.
Meaning that everything in II1 has been garbage, except for Grey Knights (incidentally, the 3rd Codex).
Nothing else mattered until December; Blood- and Dark- Angels.

[Tehnar]

+1, I'm in favor of sharing news.

On topic, looks like it'll make DW more relevant now, previously they seemed to have fallen to the wayside.

+2. Thanks for sharing.

And Cheese, anger management is a thing.

[Wraith]

You aren't getting news from their Facebook?

Okay. Someone gets value of posting links in this thread.
Now I know.

Just as a point of reference, I regularly see a headline on the BoLS Facebook feed than then go anywhere BUT BoLS - here, often, but other places too - in order to get the meat of the story because the BoLS website is one of the most janky, ad-ridden, poorly optimised messes of html that I've seen in many years.
My laptop was pretty powerful when I bought it, and it isn't now all that old, but it regularly grinds to a halt and freezes exclusively when on the BoLS website.
The more you know, and all that.

[Tome]

Might actually start that small primaris army if DW Intercessors are any good, probably with some scions as well. I've already got some inquisition and GKs to mix in.

[Hootman]

Despite them not being all that great, I've really wanted to get some use out of the Grey Knights I bought back in...early 6th? Whatever, a while ago. Of particular disappointment is that apparently Purifiers are complete garbage, since I had originally wanted to build around them and Crowe (also garbage). Thankfully, I never invested too much into the army, because I was too busy buying like 50 Loota Boyz (...sigh...) to work on anything else.

Anyways, I'd appreciate some advice on how I might build up from where I'm at. Off the top of my head, I have the following:

Castellan Crowe
Nemesis Dreadknight
-Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, 2 Fists
Purifiers 5
-3 Halberds, 2 Incinerators
Purgators 5
-4 Psycannons, Sword
Interceptors 10
-1 Psycannon (had meant it to be a Psilencer, but I mixed up the parts), 6ish Falchions (ran out of bits), unfinished
Razorback x2
-Twin Lascannon
Terminators 5
-3 Hammers, 2 Halberds probably
Librarian Terminator
-Warding Stave, Storm Bolter


I'm all for calling models something else that they could be (like recycling the Purifiers into a squad of Strike Knights, or making Crowe a Brother-Captain), but at present I cannot swap any armaments around for anyone besides the Interceptors. Losing bits is such a pain...

I was thinking I might try to convert my Vanilla Marine Dreadnoughts to be GKs too, as well as the Stormtalon I have, assuming I can find it's flight stand. After a test run the other day, it seems like GKs still have no idea what "anti-tank" means until after they've been entombed.

Has anyone ever seen a Doomglaive Dread in action? Apparently it's a Forgeworld thing that wields a giant halberd and a heavy psycannon; I've got an unfinished BA Librarian Dread I could turn into that if it seems like it could be useful.

[Voidhawk]

You aren't getting news from their Facebook?

Okay. Someone gets value of posting links in this thread.
Now I know.

I visit Warhammer Community pretty regularly, but I find the facebook format entirely useless for delivering information, so I don't follow anything that happens there. And I check here far more often than WC now my codexes have arrived.

[Forum Explorer]

You aren't getting news from their Facebook?

Okay. Someone gets value of posting links in this thread.
Now I know.

What gets me, is that if I hadn't compared to BoLS, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Ah well, too late to delete now, it's been quoted and commented on.

Put me down as another person who gets their information from here first.


That's like saying Space Wolves will be more relevant when they're Codex comes out.
Why are they irrelevant, now?

They've fallen to the wayside because they don't have a Codex. Not because they're bad.
The thing that killed every Faction in Index Imperium: I was that Codex: Space Marines was the first release of the entire edition.
Meaning that everything in II1 has been garbage, except for Grey Knights (incidentally, the 3rd Codex).
Nothing else mattered until December; Blood- and Dark- Angels.

It's funny, I do see I few Space Wolf players around.

I think it's because so many other Space Marines armies are just 'Red Space Marines' or the like. Blood Angels have barely any unique units, so until they get a Codex, it's just Red whatever Marines. Dark Angels are better, but still have very few unique units. Space Wolves in comparison have many more unique units, that are a lot more common to see. So I still see Space Wolves because they aren't just 'Grey Space Marines'

[Wraith]

Castellan Crowe
There's precious little reason to use Purifiers, and if you're not using Purifiers, there's no reason to take Crowe. Sorry mate, you are now a Strike Justicar with lofty ideas about his wargear.

Nemesis Dreadknight
-Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, 2 Fists
Make him a Grand-Master in Dreadknight, it's one of the inarguably good units in the book and it's a lot harder to kill than a Librarian on foot as your Warlord. Bonus in that he doesn't need any kind of conversion to do so, except maybe a little bit of fancy paintwork.

Purifiers 5
-3 Halberds, 2 Incinerators
"Strike Knights" I'm afraid. The increased cost for their additional psychic power just isn't worth it. Also, how does your local meta feel about Counts As? If you can get away with it, then if anyone asks then those halberds are actually Falchions in disguise. :smalltongue:

Purgators 5
-4 Psycannons, Sword
Fine. Unfortunately they're in weird poses for the purposes of conversions, as what you probably need more are Strike Knights, but they're okay to sit on an objective next to a Razorback and take shots at anything that wanders too close.

Interceptors 10
-1 Psycannon (had meant it to be a Psilencer, but I mixed up the parts), 6ish Falchions (ran out of bits), unfinished
Excellent. Keep going with the Falchions as and when you can; a Daemon-Hammer wouldn't go amiss, two if you're often fighting a lot of monsters or vehicles, but you probably won't need more.

Razorback x2
-Twin Lascannon
Absolutely fine. Your cheapest access to much-needed antitank shooting, if you're going to buy anything then it's probably more of these, or Dreadnoughts.

Terminators 5
-3 Hammers, 2 Halberds probably
Call them Paladins if you have to, but the normal Terminators aren't up to scratch any more. Honestly a much better idea would be to drop them altogether and use the Brother-Captain model as a Brotherhood Ancient for the rest of your army, his aura will do far more for the rest of your guys than 5 dudes who get plasma'd to death.

Librarian Terminator
-Warding Stave, Storm Bolter
Again, if anyone asks then you should tell them that he has a combi-weapon and to mind their own damn business. Otherwise, he's fine.

Things you probably need, if you ever feel like expanding your collection: More bodies (Strike Knights and especially Interceptors), tank-killing weapons like those found on Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts.
The Doomglaive probably isn't what you're after - a psycannon doesn't do what you need a Dreadnought to do, which is bring Plasma/Las/Assault Cannons - but I suspect that all you need is one weapon arm and you can call the Nemesis Blade/Claws a Dreadnought Fist if you want to, so converting from a BA Dread isn't a bad idea at all. :smallsmile:

[Hootman]

<Grey Knight advice>

Thankfully, my meta is pretty lax about counts-as so long as you're not doing anything absurd. I've used Meganobz as Obliterators once, and I've seen all kinds of "this Space Marine is a slightly different one today". One of my friends actually said something along the lines of "I don't know what any of your weapons do anyways, just tell me how many saves to roll." when I tried to explain what my GKs were doing.

I didn't realize that the only power-armored HQs were Crowe and the Champion (who is somehow better in every way that matters. Crowe doesn't even get combat stances?). That's...super lame. He can't even be proxied for anything good.

So, I think until I can get in some conversion time, I'm looking at:

HQ
Grand Master Dreadknight
-Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword
Librarian
-Warding Stave, "Combi-melta"
Grand Master Voldus
-Sensibly wearing a helmet

TROOPS
Strike Knights 5
-3 "Falchions", Incinerator
-Justicar Garran Crowe and the Force Sword of Failure

ELITES
Brotherhood Ancient
-"Falchion", Invisible Banner

FAST ATTACK
Interceptors 5
-3 Falchions, Psilencer
-Justicar with Hammer

Interceptors 5
-3 Falchions, Psilencer
-Justicar with Hammer

HEAVY SUPPORT
Purgators 5
-4 Psycannons
-Justicar with "Falchions"

TRANSPORTS
Razorback
-Twin Lascannon

Razorback
-Twin Lascannon

ON THE SHELF
1 Incinerator Marine
5 4 Terminators/Paladins
1 Librarian
My dreams of purging the enemies of The Emperor in fire.


Can't even make it Battleforged without adding in Paladins and/or Dreadnoughts. Guess I better get cracking on those conversions. How should I kit them? Assault Cannon and Missiles? Lascannons?

Should I proxy a Hammer-nator as Voldus? Is he worth the...wait, he's barely 30 points more than a basic Librarian. With more powers, a super-hammer, and Rites of Battle. Time to edit my list already.

Do the Relics owned by named characters count as your one Relic for the army? Or are they separate? I've never been sure.

[Cheesegear]

It's funny, I do see I few Space Wolf players around.

Are they losing terribly? All the time?


I think it's because so many other Space Marines armies are just 'Red Space Marines' or the like.

Gabriel Seth was right, though. All the way up until the Codex, anyone who was playing Blood Angels was playing 'Red Space Marines'.
Due to the fact that Blood Angels' Chapter Tactics is awful for the majority of their Codex, too, they're still 'Red Space Marines'...Although some might've jumped to Dark Angels.


Blood Angels have barely any unique units, so until they get a Codex, it's just Red whatever Marines.

Like I said, for the majority, still is. The only 'Blood Angels' left, really, are Black ones, and Gold ones.


Dark Angels are better, but still have very few unique units.

Yes they do. Dark Angels have heaps of unique units? :smallconfused:
(Only a few of them are actually any good, though)


Space Wolves in comparison have many more unique units, that are a lot more common to see.

Many of their units look unique. Most of their 'unique' units are just reskins with 'Wolf', 'Frost' or 'Claw' in the name.

[Wraith]

Can't even make it Battleforged without adding in Paladins and/or Dreadnoughts. Guess I better get cracking on those conversions. How should I kit them? Assault Cannon and Missiles? Lascannons?

Missile Launcher is highly recommended. You have enough thunder hammers spread throughout your guys, it's the long-ranged support that really counts.
The difference between Assault Cannon and Lascannon largely depends on your meta - I recommend getting one of each arm and swapping them out as necessary, if you're going to be using the army a lot and don't mind spending a few dollars getting bits on ebay, but if I had to say one or the other then I personally prefer the Assault cannon. You can usually jack-hammer a tank to death with a couple if you have to, but it takes an unrealistic amount of lascannons to make a dent in a 20-strong mob of Termagaunts or Orks.

As an alternative, I suppose you could use the Librarian model as your Brotherhood Ancient, put the Brother-Captain back for a 5-man Terminator squad and mix the Strike Knights/Interceptors/Purgators together to make Strike Knights. It's not ideal, but it is ~3 Troops choices for FoC benefits and it makes use of all of your models.

HQ: Grand-Master in Nemesis Dreadknight

Elite: Brotherhood Ancient

Troop: 5x Terminators
Troop: 10x Strike Knights
Troop: 10x Strike Knights (both with a lot of Counts As for weapons, but whatever)

Transport: Razorback
Transport: Razorback

Heavy: "Borrowed" BA Dreadnought

Just a thought. It's tidier, if nothing else :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Can't even make it Battleforged without adding in Paladins and/or Dreadnoughts. Guess I better get cracking on those conversions. How should I kit them? Assault Cannon and Missiles? Lascannons?

Lascannon & Missile Launcher. The Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon is costing you 40 Points, and you're never going to use it. Drop it immediately for the Missile Launcher. The Assault Cannon is really good for dropping Infantry, but if you're Grey Knights, you shouldn't really have any problems with that.

Then you can take the Twin Lascannon for 50. It's expensive, but it's worth it.
A close second is the Heavy Plasma Cannon, and you can pop Wisdom of the Ancients as needed, to give yourself re-rolls. It's not as good as the Twin Lascannon, but if you need to shave 20 Points, that's how you do it.


Do the Relics owned by named characters count as your one Relic for the army? Or are they separate? I've never been sure.

No. Unique characters don't count towards your Relic allotment. Fury of Deimos is stupidly strong for 2 Points. But the Cuirass is also really good.

[Mystic Muse]

So, first match of the escalation league done with. Turns out, I have no idea how to gauge power level, because I thought my mix of 500 points of Tyranids would be fine, not able to practically table my opponent turn 2. Whoops.

Next match is 750 points, going up against Thousand Sons, and FAQ stuff is NOT in effect until 1,000 points. Had I understood that, I would have gone with my original list of 2 Flyrants and 30 Termagants instead of 30 Termagants, 6 hive guard, and a Neurothrope.

[Blackhawk748]

So, first match of the escalation league done with. Turns out, I have no idea how to gauge power level, because I thought my mix of 500 points of Tyranids would be fine, not able to practically table my opponent turn 2. Whoops.

Next match is 750 points, going up against Thousand Sons, and FAQ stuff is NOT in effect until 1,000 points. Had I understood that, I would have gone with my original list of 2 Flyrants and 30 Termagants instead of 30 Termagants, 6 hive guard, and a Neurothrope.

What did you fight that you murdilated them so bad?

[Mystic Muse]

What did you fight that you murdilated them so bad?

Space Wolves. I don't know the unit names.

He had 3 guys riding wolves, 5 actual wolves, a unit of Inceptors, and his HQ was also riding a wolf.

I was just trying to be somewhat versatile in my list, depending on whether I needed to kill the **** out of things, or hold objectives.

Turned out it didn't matter. :smallredface:

[9mm]

Are they losing terribly? All the time?

Can't speak for Explorer but the Wolf players in my area are doing a decent job batting 500 or better. Often to the sound of grumbling about storm shields.

[Cheesegear]

Space Wolves. I don't know the unit names.

He had 3 guys riding wolves, 5 actual wolves, a unit of Inceptors, and his HQ was also riding a wolf.[/QUOTE]

Space Wolf Outrider Detachment.
Looks pretty bad.
I have no idea what Space Wolves are supposed to do if they can't have x3 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves.


Turned out it didn't matter. :smallredface:

...Tyranids are really good. Space Wolves... Are not.

Hopefully the Thousand Sons player is going to spam Tzaangors, and you'll be roughly on a more-equal footing.

[Renegade Paladin]

I note that Combat Roster not only operates on only Power Level, but it also seems to only support Index builds. What a worthless tool.

[Forum Explorer]

Are they losing terribly? All the time?



Gabriel Seth was right, though. All the way up until the Codex, anyone who was playing Blood Angels was playing 'Red Space Marines'.
Due to the fact that Blood Angels' Chapter Tactics is awful for the majority of their Codex, too, they're still 'Red Space Marines'...Although some might've jumped to Dark Angels.



Like I said, for the majority, still is. The only 'Blood Angels' left, really, are Black ones, and Gold ones.



Yes they do. Dark Angels have heaps of unique units? :smallconfused:
(Only a few of them are actually any good, though)



Many of their units look unique. Most of their 'unique' units are just reskins with 'Wolf', 'Frost' or 'Claw' in the name.

Not really. It depends on their opponent.


I don't disagree. When making a Blood Angel army, there is very little reason to actually use your Blood Angels. You just take a single Vanguard/Outrider, and then fill a Battalion of 'Red Marines' who use Ultramarines or Raven Guard. Or now, Dark Angels.


Maybe because it's that they aren't really any good, but I only really see 3 Dark Angel exclusive units (not counting Characters mind you); the flyer, the Black Jetbikes, and the Terminator Knights.

In comparison I see lots of Space Wolves and they almost always have Wulfen and/or Thunderwolf Cav. Also Bloodclaws. Then occasionally I'll see someone using one of the Dreadnaught with Storm Shield, or a pack of wolves.

[LansXero]

I note that Combat Roster not only operates on only Power Level, but it also seems to only support Index builds. What a worthless tool.

Its terribly unuseable, and makes you wonder if the future app will repeat its mistakes. Why on earth would they take Rollcall as its base instead of Battlescribe is baffling.

[9mm]

Its terribly unuseable, and makes you wonder if the future app will repeat its mistakes. Why on earth would they take Rollcall as its base instead of Battlescribe is baffling.

I believe they hired the guy who made Rollcall to do it.
https://i.imgur.com/o3ImoY1.jpg

[bluntpencil]

Deathwatch preview 1 is up. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/01/may-1st-codex-deathwatch-preview-focused-adaptable-deadlygw-homepage-post-1/)

Watch Captains with bolt-pistols are going to be good. 1 CP practically assures 1d3 Mortal Wounds on a vehicle. Mission Tactics is effectively 'Everyone is a Lieutenant', which isn't awful.

[LudDavenport]

Deathwatch preview 1 is up. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/01/may-1st-codex-deathwatch-preview-focused-adaptable-deadlygw-homepage-post-1/)

Watch Captains with bolt-pistols are going to be good. 1 CP practically assures 1d3 Mortal Wounds on a vehicle. Mission Tactics is effectively 'Everyone is a Lieutenant', which isn't awful.

That warlord trait is pathetic though. +1-2 CP basically because of the stratagem. I do like the stratagems design, if you are just splashing in DW you have to pay a premium for changing targets.

[Requizen]

Am I the only one terrified of Aggressors with SIA? Like, if they get their double shots and use Hellfire or Kraken rounds... scary :smalleek:

[bluntpencil]

Am I the only one terrified of Aggressors with SIA? Like, if they get their double shots and use Hellfire or Kraken rounds... scary :smalleek:

Even more scary - they might let other models in their Kill-Team use that rule, if current Kill-Team rules are anything to go by.

Hellblasters and SIA Intercessors firing twice? Very likely, and scary, all for one Aggressor and sitting still. Going with an assumption here, but I fully expect

A) Kill-Teams with an Aggressor will get Firestorm.
B) Kill-Teams with an Aggressor will get Relentless Advance.
or
C) Both A and B.

[Brookshw]

Am I the only one terrified of Aggressors with SIA? Like, if they get their double shots and use Hellfire or Kraken rounds... scary :smalleek:

Hmmmm.....so how does double tap work w/ Tempest shells. I guess you lose the second round of shooting? At least with a single weapon.

[Hootman]

The same misguided thirst for adventure that's making me try to make Grey Knights work has also led to me busting out my Steel Legionnaires and playing with the Guard codex. Now, obviously I've heard that Guard are top tier if you play them correctly (i.e., Cadia and Catachan), but given that I have the clunky old metal models, it feels wrong to use any doctrine other than Armageddon.

Let us assume, for the sake of this exercise, that the only <Regiment> will be Armageddon, and we're trying to be as Armageddon-y as we can.

Regiment: Armageddon Steel Legion
Doctrine: Infantry can Rapid Fire out to 18". Tanks treat incoming AP-1 as AP-0.
Stratagem (1CP): A unit that disembarked this turn gets rr1's to shooting.
Warlord Trait: The warlord gets +1 Attacks and +1 to Wound in the Fight phase.
Order: A unit standing within 3" of a Transport can mount up after shooting, but only if they DIDN'T disembark this turn.

I guess I'll take each piece more or less in order.

The Doctrine
The Vehicle half can be safely ignored, as it's purely defensive, and there's no way to actually optimize its use. Either our enemy has AP-1 weapons that they were going to shoot at our tanks and we rejoice, or they do not, and we do not.
The Infantry half is something to be proactive about, however. Making sure as many soldiers as possible are equipped with Rapid Fire weapons is as easy as reading the list of weapons at the back of the book.

Lasguns - Hey, would you look at that! Everyone already HAS a Rapid Fire weapon! Geez, that was easy. It's a shame it does diddly for average damage, but this synergizes REALLY well with the First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! order. That's a whole lotta diddly.
Autoguns - I think Veterans are the only <Regiment> unit that have the option to take these, and...why would you bother? They're mechanically identical to Lasguns, but can't be used with FRF!SRF!, so you're not even allowed to take them as a joke.
Hot Shot Lasgun - Oh, how I wish these could be taken on Vets or Special Squads to get the Doctrine bonus, but they're only for Tempestus, who have are their own <Regiment>.
Boltgun - You can take this on all of your Sergeants, and for 1pt/model you might as well (especially since they all left their Lasguns at home).
Stormbolter - These are only for tanks, not soldiers, and tanks don't get the Rapid Fire boost. What do you think we are, Grey Knights?
Plasmagun - FINALLY, something that you can actually use to get some real work done. They can be stacked up on Command Squads and Veterans for BS3+ melty death, or on Special Weapon Squads for BS4+, half-price, melty death. With the improved range, you should be able to take more shots than any other army who might want to take Plasma, and with the rr1's Strategem, your models might even survive an Overcharge or two even without a Commander nearby (and possibly with rr1's to wound from Bring It Down! if he IS there).


The Strategem
As mentioned, rr1's on Overcharging Plasma with an improved Rapid Fire range seems pretty good, particularly if you shelled out the big money for BS3+ models. They're probably too expensive to spam, but since you can only use the Strategem 1/turn anyways, that's not a huge deal. Maybe bring 2 or 3 squads that fit the bill, for redundancy.

But what other ways could we abuse this power? Since it requires us to de-mech, it means we're bringing Transports, and we count as moving. Having more vehicles means more chances for Ignores AP-1 to be relevant, I guess, but it's not that big of a deal. Always moving means we're not focusing on Heavy Weapons with our BS4+ (goes to 5+) Infantry Squads. I guess we could also put Plasma Pistols on the squad sergeants, but we'd have to get closer, and we're trying to avoid that by utilizing 18" Rapid Fire. Grenade Launchers, Missile Launchers, and Heavy Bolters all have the highest Rate of Fire (assuming frag shots for the explosives), which means more dice, and more chance for rr1's to matter. Still, that's just adding maybe 2 more hits with relatively weak anti-infantry weapons, and this is the IG. Just shoot it MORE TIMES with your 27 Infantry Squads or whatever.

It seems the only obvious use is to max out (or max-except-for-a-medkit) a squad of Veterans or a Command Squad, ride around in a Chimera, and do drive-by's. Seems solid enough.


The Warlord
There's basically no chance you're going to be able to use this in a genuinely strong fashion. You're just fragile little humans, not space elves or super-serum super soldiers. That said, the only guys who can actually be a <Regiment> Warlord are the Tank Commander, who has no need nor desire to be in CQC ever and only hits on 6's, and the Company Commander, who can at least occasionally HIT something, even if he'll struggle to WOUND it.

But, since we're married to the idea for the sake of the mental exercise, let's try to make it usable. Company Commanders can take either Power Swords or Power Fists to get stuck in with, so you get to make the exciting choice between never wounding the enemy or just never hitting it in the first place. Cool. Although, there IS one thing we forgot to mention...


The Relic
The Armegeddon Relic is complete trash. Enemies get -1 Ld if they're within 3" of the guy carrying it (also known as "Probably locked in combat"), and I don't think there are any units that would be scared of taking on a few guardsmen in melee. You want to give your enemies -1 Ld, you KILL MORE OF THEM. But that's ok, because it leaves us open to completely ignore this item in favor of a generic relic, The Blade of Conquest. It replaces the power sword we were thinking of giving the Commander with S5 AP4 D2, which is actually pretty awesome. Let's sketch it out:

The Company Commander charges into a unit of some Tactical Marines, for they are one of the game's baseline models. He comes at them with 3 Base +1 Trait = 4 attacks, hitting on 3s. Those hits then wound on (S5>T4) 3's, +1 to wound from his Trait, 2's. AP-4 means no save. That's...2.22 dead marines without using any rerolls. Not bad for a model who only costs 34pts. If you really want to double down on melee, you could mount him up in one of the dozen Chimeras you need to bring for authenticity with a Priest (+1 Attacks to everyone within 6", adding another 0.55 dead Marines to the Warlord's killcount) and a trio of Bullgryns with Mauls for a healthy helping of SMASH. Everyone was just talking about how they're pretty solid combatants, so they might be an ok investment. Not like anything else in the Guard book can fight in close combat anyways.

EDIT: Wait, I forgot about Crusaders! Sure, they're only S3, but they all have Powerswords, still have the solid saving throws, and fit the aesthetic better. Plus, you can get way more attacks. Assuming you also get the Priest, 126pts for Maul-gryns gives you 13 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks, while 10 Crusaders give you 30 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks for 150pts. That seems pretty good against anything T5 or lower. If you drop a Crusader to make room for an Astropath or Primaris Psyker with Psychic Barrier, they'll all have 2++ Invul's. That's interesting.


The Order
The Mount Up! order is kind of neat, so long as you give yourself enough guys who can give the command. It's natural synergy is as a follow up to using the dismount-and-rr1's Stratagem on the previous turn, and looks like it should work fairly well. The upside of it is that you do NOT count as having moved if you were stationary in the Movement phase (which is good for those Heavy Weapons that were sad on the dismounting turn), and you can both shoot and prepare to redeploy back a ways from the onrushing horde of Bad Guys (TM). It also doesn't require that the Chimera you're jumping into have been stationary, so you can play musical APC's with them if some squads lose their ride while some rides lose their squads. It looks like it will give the army the same feeling that I imagine the Fish of Fury build did for Tau back in the day, but with more shooting.

But Chimeras aren't the only Transports. I don't know enough about super-heavies to make any reasonable statements about them (though I suspect having a 20-odd man combined squad just jump into a Stormlord drive away as soon as the Orks/Nids/whatever finally make it up to them would be hilarious), but the Order CAN be used in tandem with them. Also Tauroxes (which are just slightly faster, cheaper, and more fragile Chimeras), if you're into that sort of thing. Crushingly, Valkyries do NOT have the <Regiment> keyword, and are thus ineligible targets.




So, after all that, I think we're pretty much looking at Infantry Squads and Plasma-Commands in Chimeras doing their best impression of Fish of Fury (Or 7e Formation Devastators), with a weirdly built Commander and his pet melee guys. And tanks, obviously, but saying "This IG list will use Leman Russes and maybe Basilisks" seems pretty unnecessary. Let's try a list:

BATTALION, +5CPs (-1CP FOR EXTRA RELIC), 1031pts

HQ
Company Commander, 146pts (35)
-Power Sword (The Blade of Conquest), Boltgun
-(W)- Ex-Gang Leader
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter
*Bring the Priest and the Melee Guys*

Company Commander, 130pts (39)
-Power Fist, Boltgun, Kurov's Aquila
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter
*Bring the two Command Squads*


TROOPS
Infantry Squad, 152pts (61)
-Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter Team, Vox Caster
-Sergeant with Boltgun
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Infantry Squad, 152pts (61)
-Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter Team, Vox Caster
-Sergeant with Boltgun
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Infantry Squad, 152pts (61)
-Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter Team, Vox Caster
-Sergeant with Boltgun
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

ELITES
Crusaders 10, 150pts
-Powerswords, Storm Shields

Command Squad, 76pts
-4 Plasmaguns

Command Squad, 73pts
-3 Plasmaguns, 1 Medikit


SPEARHEAD, +1CPs, 733pts
HQ
Leman Russ Tank Commander, 213pts
-LRBT with HB, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

ELITES
Ministorum Priest, 35pts
-Laspistol, Autogun, Chainsword

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Squadron, 304pts
-LRBT with HB, LRBT with HB

Basilisk Squadron, 108pts
-Basilisk with HB

Basilisk Squadron, 108pts
-Basilisk with HB


TOTAL: 1799 points.

That leaves us either 51pts for little things (like a unit of Ratkin, maybe), or 201pts for some Hellhounds, an extra Chimera and another Basilisk, the Psyker trick for 2++ Crusaders, or something like that.

[Cheesegear]

Hmmmm.....so how does double tap work w/ Tempest shells.

How does double tap work when you can effectively kit out Deathwatch Veterans like Devastators?
Or do people just forget about x4 Heavy Bolters per Troops slot?
Especially with the new ban on Devastators.

EDIT: German Leaks for Deathwatch are out.
Primaris Kill Teams require a minimum of x5 Intercessors.
+ Aggressor; Fire Heavy weapons without penalty, after moving. What Heavy weapons? The worst kind of Hellblaster? :smallconfused:
+ Hellblaster; 'More Firepower'. Does nothing? :smallconfused:
+ Inceptor; Fall Back and shoot. ~75% include.
+ Reiver; Unit gains Terror Troops rule.

Leaks don't yet indicate that you can mix Primaris with non-Primaris models.
That's a lot less good than I was expecting. But still, Intercessors with SIA at a reasonable points cost, is all I really want.

[druid91]

Is it just me, or does it almost seem like GW is 'designing as they go' rather than starting with a coherent design idea for the whole? Rules wise.

[Cheesegear]

Is it just me, or does it almost seem like GW is 'designing as they go' rather than starting with a coherent design idea for the whole? Rules wise.

Affirmative.
But 'designing as they go' doesn't matter, because they've already given themselves an out, 'we'll patch it later'.
GW's bad game design doesn't matter (to them), because they've already made it so that they don't even need to get it right the first time.

Designing as they go, also lets them react to the meta as it happens.
GW doesn't play-test right, and, also wants power creep. That said, there are certain combinations of units that happen that the designers don't plan for, because with the advent of the internet, players (as a group) are now far more innovative than they've ever been before.

The problem (IMO), is that 'patching' the game, is only going to happen every four months. Which is far too slow, given that GW releases two Codecies every six weeks or whatever.

[LansXero]

Quick question: How does a Tervigon work under the new FAQ for spawning units?

[Cheesegear]

Quick question: How does a Tervigon work under the new FAQ for spawning units?

Unless I've missed something...
- Creating a new unit costs points.
- Adding/replacing to an existing unit, does not cost points, unless you take the unit above its starting size - but, a Tervigon can't do the latter, so it's moot.

[bluntpencil]

+ Aggressor; Fire Heavy weapons without penalty, after moving. What Heavy weapons? The worst kind of Hellblaster? :smallconfused:


Translation issue there. The German images showed 'Schweren Waffens' (Heavy Weapons) 'und Sturmwaffens' (Storm weapons - I assume this is Assault weapons) moving and firing without penalty.

This will be good for auto bolt rifles, assault plasma, Inceptors generally, and, possibly, Stalker Bolt Rifles.

[Cheesegear]

This will be good for auto bolt rifles, assault plasma, Inceptors generally, and, possibly, Stalker Bolt Rifles.

Ideally, Primaris Stalkers will be re-balanced to their non-Primaris Deathwatch counterparts. In which case, go team.

[Requizen]

How does double tap work when you can effectively kit out Deathwatch Veterans like Devastators?
Or do people just forget about x4 Heavy Bolters per Troops slot?
Especially with the new ban on Devastators.

EDIT: German Leaks for Deathwatch are out.
Primaris Kill Teams require a minimum of x5 Intercessors.
+ Aggressor; Fire Heavy weapons without penalty, after moving. What Heavy weapons? The worst kind of Hellblaster? :smallconfused:
+ Hellblaster; 'More Firepower'. Does nothing? :smallconfused:
+ Inceptor; Fall Back and shoot. ~75% include.
+ Reiver; Unit gains Terror Troops rule.

Leaks don't yet indicate that you can mix Primaris with non-Primaris models.
That's a lot less good than I was expecting. But still, Intercessors with SIA at a reasonable points cost, is all I really want.

More or less confirmed with the new post. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/02/2nd-may-codex-deathwatch-building-primaris-kill-teams/)

Can't speak too much about the rules since I'm not super knowledgeable about Primaris, but dang they look good in Deathwatch Black and Metal.

[Ichneumon]

I know this is the wrong thread, but wasn’t there a place on this forum a few years ago to show off your latest painted models? I’ve veen painting again and want to show my creations to the world. :smallsmile:

[Requizen]

I know this is the wrong thread, but wasn’t there a place on this forum a few years ago to show off your latest painted models? I’ve veen painting again and want to show my creations to the world. :smallsmile:

Feel free to post them here! I think there used to be a Painting and Modeling thread, but we've kind of consolidated into this thread and the Lore thread.

[Turalisj]

More or less confirmed with the new post. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/02/2nd-may-codex-deathwatch-building-primaris-kill-teams/)

Can't speak too much about the rules since I'm not super knowledgeable about Primaris, but dang they look good in Deathwatch Black and Metal.

Kinda disappointed, I'm hoping Intercessors don't cost 30pts a pop or something.

[Brookshw]

Speaking of painting, I've recently been torn on highlighting heavily weathered models, especially where there's lots of edge chipping. The contrast can be nice, but seems a bit out of place (I'm yet to see rust as a reflective surface). Anyone have opinions on edge highlighting heavily weathered / chipped models?

Also, salt weathering. Seems the airbrush pushes the salt away more than I want. Anyone have this experience?

[Cheesegear]

Kinda disappointed, I'm hoping Intercessors don't cost 30pts a pop or something.

As with most Index armies, I don't see a problem with the way that Deathwatch are, right now (except that Drop Pods have been nerfed into the ground).
Add a few Stratagems - hopefully one that allows Deathwatch Bikers to Advance and Charge in the same turn. Have a good Warlord Trait or three. Have one or three good Relics so that 'Extra Relic' Stratagems are actually worth using, and you're good.
The Codex lacks variety. But, they're adding in Primaris Marines - and all of them are basically terrible, save Intercessors.
If GW can give Deathwatch the Grey Knights treatment, where they just throw in the word 'converted' and a reskin on certain models, all the better.

There are models for any kind of Deathwatch Space Marine. What there aren't, is Datasheets. Why can't I have a Deathwatch Ancient? :smallconfused:
Literally any Space Marine kit. Add Deathwatch shoulder pads. Done. Print the Datasheet.
(Deathwatch Techmarines pose problems, since they lack plastic kits and removable shoulder pads)

I'm not expecting a lot out of Deatwatch. I'm more expecting what we got out of Custodes. The Codex will have a handful of good tricks, that are actually totally useless on their own, but work great when allied into a different army.

For example; Deathwatch will be able to run Hellblasters in the Troops slot, I don't see anything (yet), that says you can't have 5:5 Intercessors to Hellblasters. This models are exactly what you want anyway (providing Intercessors don't go too high...I see no reason for an increase on Hellblasters, as they don't add a new ability to the unit). With every model on the board being able to split their fire, it really doesn't matter what your individual models have, anymore, provided you have the right amount of firepower for the right job (e.g; One Meltagun in a unit of Boltguns isn't going to do anything, split fire or not). Point is, you can have Hellblasters in the Troops slot, and they wont be called Hellblasters (on the unit's Datasheet), which means that you can have even more in the Heavy slot, under Dark Angels.

It's not a case of, 'Are Space Marine Hellblasters different to Dark Angel Hellblasters? And thus, can I have six?' and then everyone gets angry about RAW vs. RAI.
It's 'Deathwatch Primaris Kill Teams are definitely not the same as Hellblasters, and yes I can have 6x5.' ...But three of them have to be in coherency with Intercessor units - oh noes!

Unless;
GW treats old 7th Ed. Formations as 'units', and puts each Team in a different Role to fill page space... Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea. And since it's a good idea, I doubt GW came up with it.

ION;
Anyone know how to paint an Asian skin tone (i.e. For White Scars)?
All the tutorials I've come across, are for Caucasian, tanned or dark - or vampire - skin.
...Also, why can't Scouts just wear helmets?

[Science Officer]

ION;
Anyone know how to paint an Asian skin tone (i.e. For White Scars)?
All the tutorials I've come across, are for Caucasian, tanned or dark - or vampire - skin.
...Also, why can't Scouts just wear helmets?

Take this with a grain of salt, but the advice I've heard for painting is that Asian skin tones don't differ that significantly from Caucasian skin tones. The only difference is that they might be a bit less "pink", so you might try adding a tiny amount of green to your usual flesh-tone to balance that out. I've tried this once, with indifferent results, and I'm pretty bad at painting faces in general.

[9mm]

Deathwatch strategems. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/03/3rd-may-deathwatch-a-stratagem-for-every-enemygw-homepage-post-2/)

T'au still paying for the sins of past editions it seems.

[Brookshw]

Deathwatch strategems. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/03/3rd-may-deathwatch-a-stratagem-for-every-enemygw-homepage-post-2/)

T'au still paying for the sins of past editions it seems.

Hell, they're pretty good all around. Orks charging flamer/h.flamer are in for it. Makes it harder for nids to keep a warlord safe. Sheesh!

[Turalisj]

Deathwatch strategems. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/03/3rd-may-deathwatch-a-stratagem-for-every-enemygw-homepage-post-2/)

T'au still paying for the sins of past editions it seems.

I don't know why, Tau are literally the least played army at this point with a codex out. :smallannoyed:

[Cheesegear]

I'm not impressed that 7 of the potential Stratagems (an entire page give or take) are copy-pastes of the exact same thing.
It reeks of someone not trying at all.

[LeSwordfish]

I don't know why, Tau are literally the least played army at this point with a codex out. :smallannoyed:

For what its worth, I'd be considerably more worried about the Ork one.

[Turalisj]

I'm not impressed that 7 of the potential Stratagems (an entire page give or take) are copy-pastes of the exact same thing.
It reeks of someone not trying at all.

Welcome to 8th edition?

[LudDavenport]

Increasingly wondering why "one reroll per battle+ get 1/3 of spend CP back" isn't a generic warlord trait. Heck, why it isn't just a feature of being a warlord, as it is usually good enough to displace all other traits. Give an organic reason to slay the warlord rather then just +1VP.

[Cheesegear]

Welcome to 8th edition?

For Stratagems? I don't think so.
This is the first time I've looked at Stratagems and gone 'This looks like ****.'

A third of them are specific to one Xenos race, and thus unusable.
(Gee, I sure would love to use that Ork Stratagem against Chaos Marines...)

A third of them are copy-pastes of the exact same thing, which are already copy-pastes of Mission Tactics.

If GW goes with two pages, that's it.
However, if they add a third page, I'm willing to bet that they're the same <Adeptus Astartes> Stratagems (e.g; Honour the Chapter) that we've already seen.

What it means, however, is the Deathwatch Detachments - for access to Stratagems - wont be required.
And Deathwatch's role will be relegated to cherry-picking out the strongest models (Kill Teams) to maximise <Adeptus Astartes> Patrols.

[Brookshw]

A third of them are specific to one Xenos race, and thus unusable.
(Gee, I sure would love to use that Ork Stratagem against Chaos Marines...)



I'm not sure they deserve to be knocked, a strategem that significantly hampers an armies "thing" is still pretty useful. Most armies have niche strategems that generally won't be used, often that are far more worthless than these are shaping up to be.

[Cheesegear]

Most armies have niche strategems that generally won't be used, often that are far more worthless than these are shaping up to be.

It's not the usefulness. It's the laziness...And thus, boringness.

As I said when the Errata came out; It's not the 'balancing' that I find to be the problem. Of course SUA needed to be nerfed (against some armies). Of course Soup needed to be nerfed (for some Factions). The problem is that in doing so, it made fewer available armies/units/models to a player (especially in a tournament setting). Thus, more boring.

Balance, to an extent, equals boring, because the way GW does 'balance', is by making everyone exactly the same.
When everyone is bad, no-one is.

But it's just 'I can't use the <Ork> Stratagem against <Heretic Astartes>.' It's that. And the existing Copy-Pastes are lazy. And the other Stratagems are likely to also be copy-pastes.

But, let's see, I've been playing Space Marines since 8th Ed. started.

Trash Tier (I've never used the entire time)
Linebreaker Bombardment; Vindicators are bad, and thus, it's never come up, because I don't use Vindicators. However, seeing someone who does Vindicators use it, it was underwhelming. With the 3-cap, it's even worse than a 'never use'.
Scions of Gulliman; It's just never been required. I mean, it's good. But you just don't need it, as Ultramarines have access to two Chapter Master Auras.
Orbital Bombardment; It's self-explanatory.
Masterful Marksmanship; Sternguard are bad.
Abhor the Witch; I'd rather just take a Psyker.
Datalink Telemetry; It's just not worth it. However I have seen Dark Angel players use it.
Flamecraft; I don't play Salamanders. And, even if I did, I wouldn't use Flame weapons.
Tremor Shells

I Can't Believe It's Not Trash Tier (Extremely situational, generally based on your/opponent's army, and even then, probably still wont use)
Relics of the Chapter
Killshot; I don't use Predators often. But, with the 3-cap, I never will again.
Chapter Master
Cluster Mines; However, with the new meta, I expect to use Scout Bikes regularly from now on.
Born in the Saddle; However, with the new meta, I expect to use Scout Bikes regularly from now on.
Empyric Channelling; Goes great with other <Adeptus Astartes Psykers> Grey Knights.
Machine Empathy; When I run a Detachment of just Vehicles Dreadnoughts (rarely), there's no reason not to make them all Iron Hands.
Wisdom of the Ancients; I don't bother with Dreadnoughts often. But when I do, I use Wisdom of the Ancients. When I play Grey Knights, I use Wisdom regularly, because Dreadnoughts are a near-required part of that Codex now that SUA-Charge is dead. If Deathwatch have access to Wisdom, it'll be Trash Tier for them.
Death to the Traitors; I don't play against Heretic Astartes often, and even if when I do, I don't play 'Melee' Codex Marines, so there's no point.

Good Tier (Use pretty much every game, at least once)
Counter-Defensive; Rulebook. Clutch.
Insane Bravery; Rulebook. Clutch.
Bolter Drill
Strike From the Shadows; However I expect to be using it way more from now on.
Armour of Contempt; Clutch.
Only in Death Does Duty End; Clutch.
Honour the Chapter; Clutch.

Best Tier (Used literally as often as possible)
Command Re-roll; Rulebook. Best Stratagem in the game.
Hellfire Shells
Auspex Scan; Clutch. However I don't think I'll be using it as much anymore.
Flakk Missile

As Errata isn't necessarily finalised (but it may as well be);
Red; Post-Errata goes down a Tier, if not two.
Blue; Post-Errata goes up a Tier, if not two.

The Stratagems I never use, and the Stratagems I barely use, all revolve around specific units. Surprise! Whilst the Stratagems I use regularly, can all be spent on practically unit - also, surprise. Use the clutch Stratagems when they'll win you the turn/round/game, and use the Best Tier always.
Thus, the more specific your Stratagem is, the less it gets used. If you aren't going to use it, why it is there? And, could the space have been better utilised a different way? If you use one of trash tier Stratagems, you drop CPs in favour of not doing some of the clutch Stratagems that you may need, later on in the game.

If you have to ask yourself "When would I ever use that?" or even "Can I ever even use that?" then GW has goof'd, and wasted space. That's why Codecies without Sub-Factions typically ('typically'...Not Deathwatch :smallmad:) have way better/more interesting Stratagems, as the Codex doesn't have to 'waste space' by giving you access to Sub-Faction Stratagems that you're never going to use*, and instead focuses entirely on one Faction.

* Which is an argument for why your 'Single-Codex' army should include multiple Sub-Factions within it, because you get access to more tools for the same points.

[LudDavenport]

I've wondered why the unit specific stratagems aren't just in the data sheets. Then you can't use them to pad the general army strats page.

edit: It would also make it clear why you would ever use the unit.

[Cheesegear]

I've wondered why the unit specific stratagems aren't just in the data sheets.

Because that's not how cards work.

[Forum Explorer]

Something about the Copy-pasted stratagems is that it means you can use that stratagem multiple times in the same turn. It doesn't excuse the laziness if you end up with almost no other stratagems, but that may have been the intent.

[Ornithologist]

I guess having 7 strats to do the same thing is the army equivilent of saying "I know 8 ways to kill a man".

[LeSwordfish]

The same misguided thirst for adventure that's making me try to make Grey Knights work has also led to me busting out my Steel Legionnaires and playing with the Guard codex. Now, obviously I've heard that Guard are top tier if you play them correctly (i.e., Cadia and Catachan), but given that I have the clunky old metal models, it feels wrong to use any doctrine other than Armageddon.

Let us assume, for the sake of this exercise, that the only <Regiment> will be Armageddon, and we're trying to be as Armageddon-y as we can.

Regiment: Armageddon Steel Legion
Doctrine: Infantry can Rapid Fire out to 18". Tanks treat incoming AP-1 as AP-0.
Stratagem (1CP): A unit that disembarked this turn gets rr1's to shooting.
Warlord Trait: The warlord gets +1 Attacks and +1 to Wound in the Fight phase.
Order: A unit standing within 3" of a Transport can mount up after shooting, but only if they DIDN'T disembark this turn.

I guess I'll take each piece more or less in order.

The Doctrine
The Vehicle half can be safely ignored, as it's purely defensive, and there's no way to actually optimize its use. Either our enemy has AP-1 weapons that they were going to shoot at our tanks and we rejoice, or they do not, and we do not.
The Infantry half is something to be proactive about, however. Making sure as many soldiers as possible are equipped with Rapid Fire weapons is as easy as reading the list of weapons at the back of the book.

Lasguns - Hey, would you look at that! Everyone already HAS a Rapid Fire weapon! Geez, that was easy. It's a shame it does diddly for average damage, but this synergizes REALLY well with the First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! order. That's a whole lotta diddly.
Autoguns - I think Veterans are the only <Regiment> unit that have the option to take these, and...why would you bother? They're mechanically identical to Lasguns, but can't be used with FRF!SRF!, so you're not even allowed to take them as a joke.
Hot Shot Lasgun - Oh, how I wish these could be taken on Vets or Special Squads to get the Doctrine bonus, but they're only for Tempestus, who have are their own <Regiment>.
Boltgun - You can take this on all of your Sergeants, and for 1pt/model you might as well (especially since they all left their Lasguns at home).
Stormbolter - These are only for tanks, not soldiers, and tanks don't get the Rapid Fire boost. What do you think we are, Grey Knights?
Plasmagun - FINALLY, something that you can actually use to get some real work done. They can be stacked up on Command Squads and Veterans for BS3+ melty death, or on Special Weapon Squads for BS4+, half-price, melty death. With the improved range, you should be able to take more shots than any other army who might want to take Plasma, and with the rr1's Strategem, your models might even survive an Overcharge or two even without a Commander nearby (and possibly with rr1's to wound from Bring It Down! if he IS there).


The Strategem
As mentioned, rr1's on Overcharging Plasma with an improved Rapid Fire range seems pretty good, particularly if you shelled out the big money for BS3+ models. They're probably too expensive to spam, but since you can only use the Strategem 1/turn anyways, that's not a huge deal. Maybe bring 2 or 3 squads that fit the bill, for redundancy.

But what other ways could we abuse this power? Since it requires us to de-mech, it means we're bringing Transports, and we count as moving. Having more vehicles means more chances for Ignores AP-1 to be relevant, I guess, but it's not that big of a deal. Always moving means we're not focusing on Heavy Weapons with our BS4+ (goes to 5+) Infantry Squads. I guess we could also put Plasma Pistols on the squad sergeants, but we'd have to get closer, and we're trying to avoid that by utilizing 18" Rapid Fire. Grenade Launchers, Missile Launchers, and Heavy Bolters all have the highest Rate of Fire (assuming frag shots for the explosives), which means more dice, and more chance for rr1's to matter. Still, that's just adding maybe 2 more hits with relatively weak anti-infantry weapons, and this is the IG. Just shoot it MORE TIMES with your 27 Infantry Squads or whatever.

It seems the only obvious use is to max out (or max-except-for-a-medkit) a squad of Veterans or a Command Squad, ride around in a Chimera, and do drive-by's. Seems solid enough.


The Warlord
There's basically no chance you're going to be able to use this in a genuinely strong fashion. You're just fragile little humans, not space elves or super-serum super soldiers. That said, the only guys who can actually be a <Regiment> Warlord are the Tank Commander, who has no need nor desire to be in CQC ever and only hits on 6's, and the Company Commander, who can at least occasionally HIT something, even if he'll struggle to WOUND it.

But, since we're married to the idea for the sake of the mental exercise, let's try to make it usable. Company Commanders can take either Power Swords or Power Fists to get stuck in with, so you get to make the exciting choice between never wounding the enemy or just never hitting it in the first place. Cool. Although, there IS one thing we forgot to mention...


The Relic
The Armegeddon Relic is complete trash. Enemies get -1 Ld if they're within 3" of the guy carrying it (also known as "Probably locked in combat"), and I don't think there are any units that would be scared of taking on a few guardsmen in melee. You want to give your enemies -1 Ld, you KILL MORE OF THEM. But that's ok, because it leaves us open to completely ignore this item in favor of a generic relic, The Blade of Conquest. It replaces the power sword we were thinking of giving the Commander with S5 AP4 D2, which is actually pretty awesome. Let's sketch it out:

The Company Commander charges into a unit of some Tactical Marines, for they are one of the game's baseline models. He comes at them with 3 Base +1 Trait = 4 attacks, hitting on 3s. Those hits then wound on (S5>T4) 3's, +1 to wound from his Trait, 2's. AP-4 means no save. That's...2.22 dead marines without using any rerolls. Not bad for a model who only costs 34pts. If you really want to double down on melee, you could mount him up in one of the dozen Chimeras you need to bring for authenticity with a Priest (+1 Attacks to everyone within 6", adding another 0.55 dead Marines to the Warlord's killcount) and a trio of Bullgryns with Mauls for a healthy helping of SMASH. Everyone was just talking about how they're pretty solid combatants, so they might be an ok investment. Not like anything else in the Guard book can fight in close combat anyways.

EDIT: Wait, I forgot about Crusaders! Sure, they're only S3, but they all have Powerswords, still have the solid saving throws, and fit the aesthetic better. Plus, you can get way more attacks. Assuming you also get the Priest, 126pts for Maul-gryns gives you 13 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks, while 10 Crusaders give you 30 S3 AP-3 D1 attacks for 150pts. That seems pretty good against anything T5 or lower. If you drop a Crusader to make room for an Astropath or Primaris Psyker with Psychic Barrier, they'll all have 2++ Invul's. That's interesting.


The Order
The Mount Up! order is kind of neat, so long as you give yourself enough guys who can give the command. It's natural synergy is as a follow up to using the dismount-and-rr1's Stratagem on the previous turn, and looks like it should work fairly well. The upside of it is that you do NOT count as having moved if you were stationary in the Movement phase (which is good for those Heavy Weapons that were sad on the dismounting turn), and you can both shoot and prepare to redeploy back a ways from the onrushing horde of Bad Guys (TM). It also doesn't require that the Chimera you're jumping into have been stationary, so you can play musical APC's with them if some squads lose their ride while some rides lose their squads. It looks like it will give the army the same feeling that I imagine the Fish of Fury build did for Tau back in the day, but with more shooting.

But Chimeras aren't the only Transports. I don't know enough about super-heavies to make any reasonable statements about them (though I suspect having a 20-odd man combined squad just jump into a Stormlord drive away as soon as the Orks/Nids/whatever finally make it up to them would be hilarious), but the Order CAN be used in tandem with them. Also Tauroxes (which are just slightly faster, cheaper, and more fragile Chimeras), if you're into that sort of thing. Crushingly, Valkyries do NOT have the <Regiment> keyword, and are thus ineligible targets.




So, after all that, I think we're pretty much looking at Infantry Squads and Plasma-Commands in Chimeras doing their best impression of Fish of Fury (Or 7e Formation Devastators), with a weirdly built Commander and his pet melee guys. And tanks, obviously, but saying "This IG list will use Leman Russes and maybe Basilisks" seems pretty unnecessary. Let's try a list:

BATTALION, +5CPs (-1CP FOR EXTRA RELIC), 1031pts

HQ
Company Commander, 146pts (35)
-Power Sword (The Blade of Conquest), Boltgun
-(W)- Ex-Gang Leader
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter
*Bring the Priest and the Melee Guys*

Company Commander, 130pts (39)
-Power Fist, Boltgun, Kurov's Aquila
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter
*Bring the two Command Squads*


TROOPS
Infantry Squad, 152pts (61)
-Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter Team, Vox Caster
-Sergeant with Boltgun
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Infantry Squad, 152pts (61)
-Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter Team, Vox Caster
-Sergeant with Boltgun
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Infantry Squad, 152pts (61)
-Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter Team, Vox Caster
-Sergeant with Boltgun
+Chimera (91)
-Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

ELITES
Crusaders 10, 150pts
-Powerswords, Storm Shields

Command Squad, 76pts
-4 Plasmaguns

Command Squad, 73pts
-3 Plasmaguns, 1 Medikit


SPEARHEAD, +1CPs, 733pts
HQ
Leman Russ Tank Commander, 213pts
-LRBT with HB, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

ELITES
Ministorum Priest, 35pts
-Laspistol, Autogun, Chainsword

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Squadron, 304pts
-LRBT with HB, LRBT with HB

Basilisk Squadron, 108pts
-Basilisk with HB

Basilisk Squadron, 108pts
-Basilisk with HB


TOTAL: 1799 points.

That leaves us either 51pts for little things (like a unit of Ratkin, maybe), or 201pts for some Hellhounds, an extra Chimera and another Basilisk, the Psyker trick for 2++ Crusaders, or something like that.

As someone who runs similar-ish lists, I figure I might as well take a crack at this. The problem is, Chimeras aren't very good - putting ten guardsmen somewhere isn't really an effective way to do anything but offer them as a sacrifice to whatever looks in their direction. Other than that, they're a hundred points a pop for two heavy bolters. I suspect the best way to use them is to use enough to throw three or four squads around at once, which starts to be a scary force to put on an objective.

Ignoring -1AP is better than you seem to be thinking - after all, with a list like this, everything will be shooting your tanks because most of the squishy infantry is inside. It reduces the ability of heavy bolters etc to whittle down your vehicles.

An alternative way to get use out of the Order is to start the game outside your chimeras, shooting with longer-range weapons (missile launchers, mortars, lascannons), and then hop in when the enemy closes. In this case, the purpose of the chimeras is equal parts extraction and "one free turn of not being punched by orks".

Guardsmen meleeing is never going to not be an iffy prospect. Killing two tactical marines isn't bad but... with your HQ? Why is he trying to kill tactical marines rather than hanging back and giving orders? And he's got a 5++, T3, and like four(?) wounds? I'd give the remaining tactical marines good odds on taking him out even without the help of any actual dedicated assault troops. Taking a fancy powersword on your company commander is absolutely not worth a command point. (Also note that Kurov's Aquila can be taken by a tank commander, if you want to spread your buffs out. I can't speak for the priest/crusader bomb - best of luck with it! Remember you can use the Take Cover order to give them their 2++ (against shooting only). Can the priest take relics, because giving a -1 to leadership to enemies near him might be more worthwhile? You might also want a regimental standard if you're going into Melee - command squads and guardsmen are incredibly vulnerable to morale damage.

I've found Blue-Eyes, my Tank Commander Executioner with double-plasma to be a very solid purchase indeed -either competently taking out heavy infantry or blowing chunks out of tanks on Overcharge. To do that usually requires being Cadian to re-roll 1s to hit and to give herself the order to re-roll her Heavy D6 blasts. An Armageddon executioner will need to be giving themselves the re-roll ones order a lot, but it's doable. In particular, your list seems low on anti-tank aside from the russes. I'd consider swapping a basilisk for a third russ. Leman russes are very good, which will make up nicely for squads in chimeras being not very good.

At 1500pts I take:
7th Company - Battalion
Company Commander - Plasma pistol, power sword
Primaris Psyker
Command Squad - Medic, standard, vox, flamed
Infantry Squad - Plasma gun, missile launcher, vox, Chimera
Infantry Squad - Plasma gun, missile launcher, vox, Chimera
Infantry Squad - Plasma gun, missile launcher, vox, Chimera
Special Weapon Squad - Sniper rifles
Special Weapon Squad - Sniper rifles
Heavy weapon squad - missile launchers

8th Company - Spearhead
Command Russ Executioner - Plasma Cannons, Kurovs Aquila
Leman Russ - Heavy Bolters
Leman Russ - Heavy Bolters
Leman Russ Vindicator - Lascannon

Several of these units - the vindicator, the snipers, the commander's loadout - are fluff choices, and if you were to trim all of them you could absolutely fit more sensible things (your priestbomb, another infantry squad, more company commanders, a chimera for the command squad).

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Space Marines
Angels of Death

Part 1 of 2.
Up to date as of Chapter Approved (2018).

And They Shall Know No Fear: Re-roll Morale Tests. Nearly all units you own are Ld8 or 9, which means that by the time you're taking Morale tests on 5-model units, they're all dead. This rule is basically irrelevant ~90% of the time for most armies you're going to make. Useful when you need it... But you wont.

Combat Squads: This rule, found on most of your units, does nothing except double your number of Deployments and halves your number of Sergeants, potential access to Special/Heavy weapons, and reduces your ability to form cheap(er) Battalions.

Sons of the Primarchs
Defenders of Humanity: If all of your units in a single Detachment are drawn from Codex: Space Marines, you gain this rule, you gain Objective Secured. Since Space Marines is a book with multiple Sub-Factions in it, it's important to remember that you do not need to have the same <Chapter> Keyword in order to have Objective Secured. However...

Chapter Tactics: If all models in your Space Marines Detachment, do have the same <Chapter> Keyword, all <Infantry>, <Biker> and <Dreadnought> models gain a Chapter Tactic;
Ultramarines; +1 Ld which is irrelavent almost always. But, your units can Fall Back and Shoot (-1) in the same turn. Which is incredibly handy.
White Scars; +2" to Advance rolls, and White Scars can Fall Back and Charge in the same turn.
Imperial Fists; All your attacks ignore Cover, which is good to counter Prepared Positions...If that matters. Unfortunately, if your entire army is Imperial Fists...Your opponent just wont use it, saving themselves 2 CPs. So, you still actually do want your opponent using the Stratagem...You just need a few units that can pick up the slack. Any non-Battalion/Brigade Detachment will do the job.
Black Templars; Re-roll to Charge.
Salamanders; Each unit gets one re-roll To Hit, and one re-roll To Wound per Phase. This is really strong for units who carry one, single-shot weapon (e.g; Missile Launcher [Krak]), where you have a weapon that needs to Hit/Wound, or why do you even have the unit? Unfortunately, units that carry one, single-shot Heavy or Special weapon, are among some of the worst units in the Codex.
Raven Guard; Your opponent has -1 To Hit, if their firing unit is 12+" away. Very good.
Iron Hands; Ignore Wounds on a 6+. It's not as useful as it sounds.

Warlord Traits:
1. Nobody cares.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Storm of Fire is by far the best Warlord Trait in the book, so much so that it's worth not having named Characters as your Warlord - including Guilliman, himself!
5. No-one cares.
6. +1 to hit and to wound against <Characters> is very good. Remember that certain Imperial/Renegade Knights can pick up the <Character> Keyword, which lets you punish them.

Ultramarines; Not worth it. Just pick up an extra Battalion or two.
White Scars; 50% of the time it fails anyway. No.
Imperial Fists; Nah.
Crimson Fists; Nah.
Black Templars; Heroic Intervention (6") can be useful if you actually remember how big your Warlord's base is. Still, for Black Templars, this isn't as good as Champion of Humanity.
Salamanders; S10 Thunder Hammers is pretty good. That's all, though.
Raven Guard; Your Warlord can't be Overwatch'd against, and that's pretty good.
Iron Hands; No.

Chapter Relics
The Armour Indomitus; Useful if your Warlord is a Character that can't take a Storm Shield.
The Shield Eternal; Taking half Damage is pretty good... Most of the time.
Standard of the Emperor Ascendant; The Space Marines' Codex is almost non-competitive without this Relic, which means you must have an <Ancient> in your army.
Teeth of Terra; It's good because it's free...And it's good.
The Primarch's Wrath; It's...Okay. Unfortunately there are other, better Relics to take, even if you use Relics of the Chapter, you still wont be taking this.
The Burning Blade; No.
Tome of Malcador; There's just no point.

The Salamander's Mantle; Pass.
The Axe of Medusa; It's actually quite good! Unfortunately, you have to be Iron Hands to get it, and it's worse than a Power Fist anyway, not to mention Thunder Hammers.
Raven's Fury; This is quite strong. Your Character uses the 9" Move from Strike From the Shadows, 12" Move plus the Advance roll, leads to a basically guaranteed Charge on Turn 1. This can be combined with the Raven Guard's Warlord Trait, so your opponent can't Overwatch you, or you can throw on Champion of Humanity and see what happens.
Mantle of the Stormseer; You'd like to be spamming Smite, would you? With ~100 Point Librarians? ...No.
The Fist of Vengeance; The best weapon in the book. Unfortunately, you need to be <Crimson Fists> to get it, which comes with its own drawbacks.
The Sanctic Halo; Never a bad 'second Relic'. Frees up your Captain's other hand for a second weapon, which is nice.
The Crusader's Helm; It's a bit of a waste.
The Spartean; Worst Relic in the book.

Librarius Discipline
1. Target <Adeptus Astartes> unit can re-roll their Advances, and their Charges. In addition, they Always Fight First, until your next Psychic Phase.
2. Target <Adeptus Astartes> model gains +1S, T and Attacks, until next Psychic Phase. Very good.
3. A targetable not!Smite with Damage based on Leadership conditions.
4. A Power with a random range, that deals one Mortal Wound to each unit it hits. Garbage.
5. Target <Adeptus Astartes> unit auto-passes Morale tests, and ignores Mortal Wounds in the Psychic Phase on a 4+. This is immensely useful.
6. Warp Charge 8 and 6" range makes it almost unusable. Even if it does halve your opponents' Psychic tests...Within 6".

Veil of Time and Might of Heroes are fantastic Powers, that work even better when combined with other <Adeptus Astartes> Detachments. Psychic Scourge is fairly situational, whilst Psychic Fortress easily defends your key units from Psychic Mortal Wound spam.

Tactical Objectives
11. Destroy a unit using a unit with <Fly>. Easy. Units with <Fly> rank among some of your best units. Allied units even more so.
12. Have your <Characters> deal Damage to your opponent's <Characters>. Sure.
13. Destroy enemy units and/or make them fail Morale tests. So far, so good.
14. Make a Charge with an <Infantry> or <Biker> unit. Fine.
15. Destroy an enemy unit in their Deployment Zone. Easy... Unless it's not.
16. Control Objective Markers that were controlled by your opponent. You're doing this anyway.

Easy. Don't discard any of these before any game. Instead, go for the usual suspects; Psychological Warfare, Domination, Priority Orders..., etc.

Remember, you just need a Space Marines Detachment, not a <Chapter> Detachment.

Relics of the Chapter (1/3); This is occasionally useful.

Linebreaker Bombardment; Horrid.

Killshot: This is really good...If you go first and have 3 Predators. Just...No.

Chapter Master (3): This can be extremely useful if you play a Chapter that sucks. Why are you playing a Chapter that sucks?

Orbital Bombardment (3); Why would you even bother?

Cluster Mines: Unlike Orbital Bombardment, it costs 1CP, and happens on a 2+. Seriously. Whose idea was Orbital Bombardment? Anyway, Scout Bikers are a fairly decent part of your Codex, especially if you're White Scars. Any source of Mortal Wounds, is a unit worth having.

Masterful Marksmanship; +1 to wound is an exceptionally strong and useful ability, especially coming off the back of S4, and especially if the AP is high to match...Well, it's AP-2. So it's well worth it to have Sternguard in your army.

Empyric Channelling; If you want to have an army that throws out a lot of Psychic Powers...You should be playing an army where your Psykers come ~100 Points a pop.

Datalink Telemetry; This is really useful if you want to take two bad units to have a couple of mediocre turns of shooting.

Hellfire Shells; One of the best Stratagems in the entire book. As it is explicitly a 'to hit' roll...You're Space Marines. There are a number of re-rolls and adds to hit found throughout the book.

Auspex Scan (2);

Space Marines FAQ
Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer?
A: Yes.
Yes please. Use Auspex Scan as often as you can.

Tactical Flexibility; Combat Squads is garbage.

Flakk Missile; One of the best Stratagems in the entire book. As it is explicitly a 'to hit' roll...You're Space Marines. There are a number of re-rolls and adds to hit found throughout the book, and that's on top of the +1 to hit that it already gives you.

Armour of Contempt; A <Vehicle> Ignores Mortal Wounds (5+) for an entire phase. Doesn't even need to be in the Psychic phase. Nice.

Only in Death Does Duty End (2); If one of your <Astartes Characters> dies...Shoot or Fight immediately. So good.

Honour the Chapter (3); At the end of the Fight phase, one of your <Infantry> or <Biker> units can fight again. This is always pretty strong.

Wisdom of the Ancients; For a phase, your <Dreadnought> gains the Rites of Battle buff. You have to build around though, and burn a CP every turn. But it is legit.

Death to the Traitors!; Target <Adeptus Astartes> unit gets extra Melee attacks on a 6+ To Hit against <Heretic Astartes>. The only reason you'd ever even think of playing this Stratagem is if you're playing as <Black Templars>, where you have the number of attacks to make it count.

Tremor Shells; A Thunderfire Cannon gets -1 to wound (ew). Fortunately, if you're using this Stratagem, all's you really want to do, is hit. The target halves its Move, Advance and Charge rolls during the next turn, which can actually buy you a lot of time. Unfortunately, the Stratagem doesn't work on <Titanic> units, or units with <Fly>. Which, unfortunately consists of the majority of units you'd want to use it against. Still, it's not nothing.

Scions of Guilliman; An <Ultramarines Infantry> or <Biker> unit can pick up re-roll 1s to hit, or straight re-rolls if you do it on Tacticals and Intercessors...Which you wont.

Born in the Saddle; A <White Scars Biker> unit can Advance, Shoot (with no negs on Assault weapons) and Charge in the same turn. This will get you a Turn 1 Charge with the <Biker> unit of your choice... Unfortunately, the only choices you have, are a Captain on Bike, or a Scout Bike Squad. They have a mess-ton of Assault weapons, with Combat Blades/Chainswords. Unfortunately, Scout Bikers are going to have the larger base size, and they can't climb stairs 'cause they're Bikes. Your viable targets for such a strategy have the potential to be limited. However, since this Strategy relies on a Stratagem, you do not have to have a full White Scars Detachment. That would be dumb.

Abhor the Witch; This can be extremely clutch against the right opponent. A <Black Templars> unit negates any Psychic Power in 24" on a 4+. All's you need to do it, is a 20 Point unit of Servitors - they don't get Chapter Tactics, but they do get Keywords. :smallwink:

Bolter Drill; When <Imperial Fists Infantry> fire 'Bolt' weapons and roll a '6+' To Hit, make another to hit roll using the same weapon. Not bad. Unfortunately, not really worth making a whole Detachment for, either.

Machine Empathy; An <Iron Hands Vehicle> gains Power of the Machine Spirit for a turn. Very useful on Fliers.

Flamecraft; A <Salamanders> unit with 'Flame' weapons gain +1 To Wound. Unfortunately, Salamanders' strengths do not lie in short-ranged Flame weapons. Nobody's do.

Strike From the Shadows; A <Raven Guard Infantry> unit gets a 9" Move at the start of the first round. Since this happens during Deployment, you can do it as many times as you want - or rather, can afford:
Your Jump Infantry units have a 12" move (except for Inceptors), for a total of 21" - before Charges.
A 9" move allows Aggressors to fire twice on Turn 1.
A 9" move plus 4<6" move will put you into Rapid Fire range on almost any unit you have.
This move is done after you know whether or not your opponent has rolled a '6' to go first. So, you don't have to move all your models forwards if you don't want to. However, the CPs will have already been spent.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Space Marines
Angels of Death

This Guide includes the updates from Chapter Approved (2018), and takes the includes the 'Bolter Buff'.

Part 2 of 2.

At many times throughout this Guide, you'll have an option of giving your models extra wargear. Here's all you need to know:

Ranged Weapons
Combi-Melta; Good at what it does. But costs a lot of points, and is at a fairly short range.
Combi-Plasma; It's only really useful when Supercharging. Luckily, Space Marines have plenty of sources of re-rolls.
Storm Bolter; The cheapest option, and largely that means the best option.

Melee Weapons (worst to best)
Chainswords (x2); For when you need to drop a Master-Crafted Boltgun and don't want to pay any points to do so.
Lightning Claw; It's quite good. But...
Power Axe; It cheap. It's S5, AP-2. It gets the job done. This is your default weapon for any model you want to be in Melee.
Power Fist; What you take when you can't afford a Thunder Hammer.
Thunder Hammer; Best Melee weapon in the book.

Storm Bolter & Power Axe isn't a wrong choice. But it falls into the trap of making your model(s) try to do both Melee and Ranged. That's not...Good. Still, between the two weapons, it only represents 7 Points. So you probably wont lose a game over it.

Marneus Calgar: One of the best models in the Codex. He's a Chapter Master, so already you want to take him. He comes stock with one of the better Warlord Traits in the book and also gives extra Command Points when he's your Warlord. He has 7 Wounds and only takes half Damage, additionally, his Power Fists aren't -1 To Hit, and he's just...Really strong. The only reason not to take Marneus Calgar & Lieutenant, is if you're taking Roboute Guilliman, instead.
!Marneus Calgar in Armour of Heraclus: From the Vigilus Defiant book, Marneus Calgar with +1T and +1W for the same points is a no-brainer. No, you don't care that he can't go in a Land Raider anymore.
Chief Librarian Tigurius: He's a Librarian with an extra Power, who can re-roll his Psychic tests. That gives slightly better odds for manifesting Null Zone - however, bear in mind that Tigurius doesn't have Jump Pack and casting Null Zone is pretty pointless almost all of the time. Additionally, at the start of your opponent's Shooting phase, give one of your <Ultramarines> units -1 To Hit - yes, that includes Land Raiders. That's pretty much the only reason you want to take him. It also makes him pretty much mandatory.

Chaplain Cassius: Doesn't have a Jump Pack. So screw 'im. Alternatively, pack him in a Land Raider and get a Turn 2 Charge...But why are you playing bad Black Templars?

Captain Sicarius: All Tactical Squads within 6" gain Always Fight First. Tactical Squads? In Melee? You know you're Ultramarines, right? You know you can Fall Back whenever you want, right? Sicarius is garbage and you should avoid him at all costs.

Sergeant Chronus: Put him in a tank. Best choices involve a Land Raider, or LR Crusader (taking -1 to hit off of Tigurius). The only other choice - really - is a Razorback with a Twin Assault Cannon. Importantly, the Vehicle he rides in, is always BS2+, no matter how much Damage it has taken. Chronus is one of your best HQs, all's he requires is that you take a Vehicle that you were probably going to take anyway.

Sergeant Telion: His save is actually 2+, he can SUA during Deployment for early Objective grabbing and board control, and one Ultramarines Scout unit within 3" gets +1 To Hit during the Shooting phase. This is incredibly important as units of Scouts have potential access to Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missile, this will mean that against non-Airborne targets, Flakk Missile will hit on a 1+, and taking the -1 To Hit against a Flier wont make a difference. Very strong. Not bad at all. If your goal is to get 'a Space Marine Detachment' for access to Stratagems, Telion and Scouts aren't a bad Patrol tax.

Captain Lysander: Trash.

Pedro Kantor: Here's the reason you don't take Lysander. If you've got your heart set on playing Imperial Fists (though who knows why?), then at least this way you pick up a Chapter Master, and every model within the same Aura gets +1 Attack. So, yeah. You're Imperial Fists and your...Melee...Is...Better... Whatever. Put Pedro in the middle of Company Veterans/Vanguard/Terminators(?) in the Land Raider or Stormraven of your choice, and try and go to town.

High Marshal Helbrecht: Another Chapter Master, but gives everyone +1S instead of +1A. He costs the same as Pedro. But, the difference is that Black Templars have access to Crusader Squads, and Grimaldus. The Black Templars' Warlord Trait is pretty weak. Ultimately, Helbrecht is for playing Black Templars how you think they should be played. Even though that's the sub-optimal way to play Black Templars...Besides, aren't Space Wolves a thing?

The Emperor's Champion: Why?

Chaplain Grimaldus: While it is possible to play Black Templars without High Marshal Helbrecht, it is nearly impossible to play Black Templars with any reasonable chance of success without Chaplain Grimaldus. Grimaldus is the main man, giving you re-rolls To Hit, and on 6s, your models make extra Attacks. So, yeah. Load up in Crusaders and/or Stormraven, and run at your opponent.
Cenobyte Servitors: *Fart noise*. However, Cenobyte Servitors are really good for making <Adeptus Astartes> Vanguard Detachments, as they're an Elites choice that costs 6 Points - total. Other than mix-maxing your Soup Detachments, there is no reason to touch Cenobyte Servitors...Ever.

Kor'sarro Khan: Nope. You're better off with a regular Captain on Bike, who has access to Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

Vulkan He'stan: He's pretty good, and he's reasonably cheap for the wargear he has. Unfortunately he really wants to be coming out of a Drop Pod, which means he's not going to be on the board 'til Turn 2, and that feels like a waste of both He'stan, and whatever unit(s) he's with.

Kayvaan Shrike: As a Chapter Master he's already mandatory for a Raven Guard army. Models using Strike From the Shadows don't need him at all. Which means that Shrike is going to end up hanging back with your gunline (Remember your Chapter Tactics) and likely used to counter-charge whatever your opponent throws at you.

Captain: Hands out Rites of Battle, which is really handy for every unit in the book. If you switch out his Master-Crafted Boltgun for a Storm Bolter or Combi-Plasma, you'll be fine.
...in Cataphractii Armour: As a Character that almost definitely wants to be in Melee...Well, he comes stock with a 3+ Invulnerable, so you don't need a Storm Shield. This guy is pretty much the only model in the whole book where having dual Lightning Claws is a viable option.
...in Gravis Armour: No.
...in Terminator Armour: Unlike the Cataphractii, he needs the Storm Shield. Which means the only viable weapon is a Thunder Hammer.
...on Bike: They can be good. But a Jump Pack is better. On a Bike, you lose access to Honour the Chapter which is a really powerful Stratagem on a model that has the ability to pack a Thunder Hammer. Mostly, a Captain on Bike is good because of dual Storm Bolters. As a <Biker>, you always get the Rapid Fire. So, that's cool.
...with Jump Pack: Even gunlines appreciate a good Captain with Jump Pack. Put your Aura where you need it. A fairly decent counter-Assault unit, and at times can be used to rocket out of the line and cave nerds' heads in. If you aren't playing Ultramarines, where all your Characters are Uniques, a Captain on Jump Pack is your default choice. Even Ultramarines players can appreciate a good Captain anyway. That's how good they are.
Primaris: No.

Librarian: None of their weapons are even good. The reason you're taking them, is for access to Librarius Powers (which aren't good), and the occasional Deny the Witch as-needed (which can be done cheaper with Allies). Space Marine Librarians are real bad.
...in Terminator Armour: You're still paying points for a model that isn't even good.
...with Jump Pack: Jump Packs are strong. But Librarians still suck. Remember that the good Librarius buffs all target <Adeptus Astartes> units. Additionally, the 12" Move allows your Librarian to keep up with your Allied models that are trying to make first turn Charges or redeployments.
Primaris: No.
!...on Bike: Out of Index: Imperium I, this is pretty much the only non-Tigurius Librarian worth having. Remember your dual Storm Bolters.

Chaplain: Bring along for any unit that wants to be in Melee. Basically the only Melee unit in the Codex, are Vanguard Veterans. Chaplains force multiply Honour the Chapter something fierce. Always bring the Power Fist.
...in Terminator Armour: Your Chaplain already has a 4+ Invulnerable...So you're paying a whole bunch of points for a 2+ Armour that you don't even need.
...with Jump Pack: Yes. Your Vanguard Veterans are always going to with Jump Packs, so there's no reason for your Chaplain not to have one too.
Primaris: Unless you're bringing Reivers in a Repulsor (:smallyuk:), you will never need a Primaris Chaplain.

Techmarine: Your cheapest HQ choice - even with a Servo-Harness. However, your HQ slots in the Space Marine book are extremely valuable, and you can pick up a Techmarine off of the Thunderfire Cannon entry. So, yeah. The only reason to run a non-Thunderfire Gunner, is because you're desperate. Space Marines have so many good HQs that it's hard to believe why you'd waste your time with this one.

Lieutenant: As a BS3+ with re-roll 1s to wound, giving him a Storm Bolter is almost always a good idea, because Master-Crafted Boltguns are stupid. As a WS2+ model, a Power Axe or dual Chainswords also a good idea. It doesn't matter what you do with the Lieutenant, because regardless, he's still throwing out re-roll 1s to wound, which is amazingly helpful in an army where the main weapons you'll run are all S4. It's rare that your army wont include a Lieutenant...Unless you're Ultramarines.
...with Jump Pack: Sure, if it's what you need. Though in this role, you're almost definitely better off with a Chaplain. Remember, that when going by the 3-cap, models with Jump Packs don't count as having a separate Datasheet, even if the itemised list at the back makes it seem otherwise.
Primaris: Actually, the Primaris Lieutenant is still dirt cheap enough to be actually worth taking, even if you aren't just using him to fill Detachment requirements. His BS3+ is a problem, especially as he can't take a regular Intercessor's Bolt Rifle. Give him a Power Sword, and make his WS2+ and extra attack mean something.

Tactical Squad: Post-Chapter Approved (i.e; After the Intercessor point-reduction), they're quite bad. Their primary ability that actually makes them worth taking, is their ability to Embark into Transports, which allows them a potential 12" Move per turn. However, every turn they spend inside the Transport, is a turn that they aren't doing anything...Which actually makes them bad.

Intercessor Squad: In the Space Marines' Codex, you're taking regular Bolt Rifles, no exceptions. AP-1 for 0 Points is quite clearly the best option. If you want some of the other kinds of Rifle, then you're going to want to paint your models different colours to what you can find in this Codex. Remember that having two Auxiliary Grenade Launchers in the same squad doesn't work, as the AGL doesn't change the 'Type' of the weapon, it merely increases the range. The Krak Grenade is still a 'Grenade' - albeit with 30" range - and each squad can only fire one Grenade weapon per turn. There's no point having Intercessor squads of more than 5 models.
Intercessors are not for removing hordes from the board. Intercessors are for taking out Elite units like themselves. Their 3+ (2+, in Cover) Save and 2 Wounds goes a long way against models trying to shoot the same S4 AP-1 weapons back at them.

Scout Squad: Why do Tactical Squads need to move 12" per turn, when Scouts can simply just start the game there? Scout Squads do what Intercessors can't; They're the cheapest scoring bodies you have, and they have the ability to grab mid-field Objectives before the game even starts, and they can be outfitted a multitude of different ways;
Boltguns; Take the mid-field and hold it.
Sniper Rifles; You'll probably want one unit in your own DZ. As a S4 weapon that has an effect on '6' to wound...They're pretty much useless unless you can get them re-rolls to wound...And then they're really good.
Astartes Shotgun; Use your Turn 1 Movement to get into half-range, unload with S5, Assault 2, then Charge. Make sure your Sergeant is equipped with something that isn't garbage, like a Chainsword. Your goal is to Charge Objectives in the front of your opponent's DZ.
Combat Blades; Wrong book, son.
Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher; Scouts have access to Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missile, which is all they want. The Heavy Bolter is 15 Points cheaper, which adds up over several squads.

Your Troops selection is ideally a 30/70 split on Intercessors and Scouts...If not just all 100% Scouts.


Crusader Squad: If you want to play thematic Black Templars, then give them all Chainswords, take as many Power Axes as you can (...two *fart*), pack them with Helbrecht and/or Grimaldus in a Crusader and roll up on nerds. However, remember that Helbrecht's and Grimaldus' Aura only go so far. Remember that between two Land Raider Crusaders, you can fit in 30 (6x5) Initiates and still have room for two Characters. Don't bother with Neophytes. If you want cheap Scouts, take cheap Scouts. If you're thinking about 'Black Tide', you're thinking wrong. Two Land Raider Crusaders. That's what your Black Templars army looks like when it deploys. Maybe third Crusader or Stormraven if you want to run double Battalions and you need space for two more HQs.
Unfortunately, that's the wrong way to play Black Templars effectively. A Crusader Squads' true strength lies in their ability to take a Special weapon (Plasma Gun) and Heavy weapon (Heavy Bolter or Grav-Cannon), and Sergeant's Combi-Weapon (Combi-Plasma or Storm Bolter), using only 5 models. Helbrecht is still a Chapter Master and still gives out re-rolls to hit. Castle up, kid.

This is where your <Ancients> are found. One is mandatory in your Space Marine army. And it's mandatory to take Standard of the Emperor Ascendant. It wouldn't even be a mistake to make an Ancient your Warlord and give them Storm of Fire...Yes, even if Guilliman Himself, is in your army, there are a multitude of common situations where an Ancient with SoF would be a better Warlord than Guilliman.

Remember how an Astartes Banner actually works...
You can shoot with one weapon. So models with two or more ranged weapons (e.g; Aggressors) don't actually benefit that much.
You can make a single attack as if it were the Fight phase. This means that for majority of the time, an Ancient doesn't belong in a Melee army because what's one attack gonna do?
There's also RAW that says the models aren't actually Fighting, which means that Chainswords don't even work, compared to the wording of Only in Death Does Duty End's '...fight as if it were your Fight phase.'

Primaris Ancient: Generally the most common <Ancient> you're going to want, because he has an extra Wound, and that big, stupid Banner isn't exactly easy to hide. So, if you're going to get shot at by anything, you might as well have more wounds. The fact that a Primaris Ancient comes with a Bolt Rifle, isn't bad.

Chapter Ancient: 2+ Armour isn't worth the points, even if you hang out in Cover. Things that target Characters, generally do Mortal Wounds, so 2+ Armour ain't gonna help.

Chapter Champion: Garbage.
!Index Wargear; Taking a Thunder Hammer is the only worthwhile use for this model. Heroic Intervention into a Character and beat its head in. A Champion is better than a Smash Captain against <Characters> only. Against everything else, a Smash Captain is better...And a Smash Captain force multiplies. So...Whatever.
Honour Guard: Their job is to take Mortal Wounds... So give them 2+ Armour? ...Right. :smallsigh:

Company Ancient: Can take a Storm Bolter. That's about the only benefit to taking a Company Ancient, over a Primaris one.

Apothecary: ...and after the model dies, and attacks again from an <Ancient>. Just bring 'em back! The problem is that it only happens on a 4+, and you have no way to improve it. Take one or don't, it doesn't really matter. Unless you have a super-character that doesn't take Wounds right (Marneus Calgar, or a model with The Shield Eternal), then you can basically walk around with an unkillable Character, as your Apothecary is constantly healing them. Healing is free. Reviving is 50% dice roll, and if you fail, your Apothecary can't do anything for the rest of the turn...Not that that matters.
!...on Bike: It's the only way you're gonna keep up with your Smash Captains and Vanguard. Still, Space Marines are primarily a gunline army, so there's not much point. Can't even take dual Storm Bolters
Company Champion: Is a cheap unit that can fill out your Elite slots when making a Brigade.

Company Veterans: They take Wounds so your Characters don't have to. These aren't totally necessary. They're just Veterans. There's more where this came from. "Can't you give them all Storm Bolters?" ...What is this, Deathwatch? Why aren't you playing Deathwatch?

Servitors: Minimum Brigades. Still, cheap Heavy Bolters hanging around a Thunderfire Cannon isn't an awful idea...But it is also an awful idea.

Primaris Apothecary: The regular Apothecary is hit-or-miss to begin with, and you want to pay more points it?

Reiver Squad: This is a joke unit, right?

Agressor Squad: These guys desperately need re-rolls to wound (Lieutenant/Guilliman), and Storm of Fire while they're at it. While they're not as good as some other models might be around an <Ancient>, fact is, even shooting with one weapon, an Aggressor has 6 shots...Possibly even 12 if they don't move. If you can't get Aggressors to re-roll to wound, and you don't have Storm of Fire either...You're just slow-playing. Never take the Flamestorm Gauntlets. They're aren't bad in Assault, either. Having two attacks with a Power Fist you barely paid for is pretty decent.

Terminator Squad: Wrong book. "But what about Storm Bo-" Shut up. Any Terminators you have in your army, should be Aggressors instead. And Aggressors aren't even that good.

Terminator Assault Squad: Strike from the Shadows or don't bother. Mostly Thunder Hammers.

Cataphractii Terminator Squad: Strike from the Shadows or don't bother. Mostly Lightning Claws.

Tartaros Terminator Squad: Like regular Terminators, with better Movement. Still, wrong book.

Vanguard Veteran Squad: These are arguably your only non-Character Melee unit in the entire book. Double Chainswords each is cheap and cleans hordes. You can also bring a ton of Power Axes or Thunder Hammers, with Storm Shields, to your battle line. With Raven Guard's Strike From the Shadows, this can be an immensely strong unit when lined up against a decent target. These guys benefit greatly from Chaplains (especially if wielding Thunder Hammers), and <Lieutenants> are always welcome, regardless, because you're accidentally not playing Blood Angels and running Vanguard anyway? :smallconfused:

Sternguard Veteran Squad: One of the best units in the entire book. Masterful Marksmanship means you will be spending a CP on them every single turn (it also means that you never need more than one unit of Sternguard), so be aware of your CP budget when writing your list - you still have to fit in Hellfire Shells and/or Flakk Missile, too, right? Without spending a CP on them, they're only S4, which means that they need re-rolls to wound. If you have re-rolls to wound and Masterful Marksmanship? Yeah. Do that.

Dreadnought: Nope. Venerables are Just Better for not that many more points.

Ironclad Dreadnought: Put it in a Stormraven or don't bother. Always swap the Hammer for the Chainfist. Hurricane Bolters are rad, even if you lose re-roll 1s to hit in the Fight phase. Meltaguns and Heavy Flamers are the same points, so whatever you have in your Chainfist hand, is up to you. Never bring Hunter-Killers on a model designed to either a) Constantly move, or b) be in combat. Ironclad Dreadnoughts are also useful in that whatever else comes out of the Stormraven, you can use Wisdom of the Ancients to support both the unit, and the Stormraven itself...Unless it flew off.

Venerable Dreadnought: Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher. This is the only combination worth having. Wisdom of the Ancients as-needed.

Contemptor Dreadnought: No.

Redemptor Dreadnought: 'Use if you want, but why do you want?'

Centurion Assault Squads: As a <Centurion> with Hurricane Bolters, they're exactly...Okay. Double Flamers gives them a lot of shots. And their Siege Drills don't even have negs to hit. At 75 Points each, however, they can be difficult to fit into your army, especially when Aggressors are only 37 each, which means you get two Aggressors per Assault Centurion. So you get six Aggressors per 3 Centurions. So, what're you gonna do?

Bike Squad: With the Twin Boltguns on the front, you'll never be able to fire the Pistols, so, always take Chainswords. You can take dual Meltaguns, or Plasma Guns, if you want. But being <Bikers>, the Sergeant is obviously packing a Twin Storm Bolters. That's it.

Assault Squad: Wrong book.

Land Speeders: They're really bad.

Attack Bike Squad: They're the cheapest unit you can use to fill Fast Attack slots. That's it. They're very bad.

Scout Bike Squad: Scout Bikes have a 16" Move. Wow. Without anything else, they're only 8" away from your opponent if both of you have pushed your DZs. They've got the same Twin Boltguns as the normal Bikers, and they've got the same T5 and 2 Wounds that the other Bikers have. For the same points, you just lose a point in Armour. But, in addition to their better move, they also have a Bolt Pistol (will never be fired), Combat Blade/Chainsword for +1 Attack, and a Shotgun. Well, with your 16" Move, you should be inside 12" range, which means you get an additional 2 shots per model - with the Shotgun - over regular Bikes. But, when all's said and done, Scouts still have the Combat Blades for two attacks each, and an 8" Charge is much easier than a 10" Charge. As always, <Bikers>, the Sergeant has a Storm Bolter. In a pinch, Scout Bikes can also be used a source of Mortal Wounds, which is handy.
White Scars; When you use the Stratagem, you'll end up 2" away from your opponent - can't fail a Charge, even on snake eyes - but, as Shotguns (and Grenade Launchers) are Assault weapons, you can shoot them with no penalties using the Stratagem. Again, as you're basing this off of a Stratagem, you can't do it more than once per turn. So make sure that the unit you're doing it with, has a lot of models in it.
Inceptor Squad: One of the best units in the book. Take the Assault Bolters. Two Wounds and T5. They carry two !Heavy Bolters each that don't take negs To Hit when they move, and unlike Vehicles, they can be affected by all <Infantry> based Stratagems like Bolter Drill or Auspex Scan. Their <Fly> Keyword also gives them the ability to leave combat without penalty, which is really stupid strong on such a cheap unit. It is definitely worth having two or three units in your collection.

Devastator Squad: Another one of the best units in the book. This unit doesn't seem like much, until you actually play the game, and see how it actually works. Always bring the Armorium Cherub. First, the Sergeant's Signum gives one model in the unit +1 To Hit. Remember the two best Stratagems in the book? Hellfire Shells, now works on a 2+. Flakk Missile also works on a 2+, base. For 2 Command Points, if you're shooting at <Fly><Infantry> unit (e.g; Swooping Hawks), that unit takes 2D3 Mortal Wounds, on two rolls of 2+. BUT WAIT. THERE'S MORE. Per the FAQ, the Armorium Cherub allows a 'reload' of the Stratagem. But you can't use a Stratagem twice? Well, you're not. For 5 Points, once per game, you can use Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missile without paying its cost. YES PLEASE. Should you make Devastators all the same? NO. That's why you see things like x3 Heavy Bolters and a Missile Launcher, or vice versa. A Devastator Squad churns out 2 D3s (sometimes 3 D3s) worth of Mortal Wounds per turn, in addition to rest of the damage. Other than abusing Stratagems, your only real choice is how many Lascannons you want in the unit.

Centurion Devastator Squad: These guys are really, really good. Unfortunately, they're also 70 Points each, which is fairly expensive unless you've got Guilliman behind them with Storm of Fire, and then these guys leave Aggressors in the dust. As they do explicitly carry Heavy Bolters, you can also fire off a Hellfire Shells if you want to, which is really useful because you don't actually lose firepower, because you've still got at least five more Heavy Bolters to come.
...If you aren't running Heavy Bolters and Hurricanes, you're wasting your time.

Hellblasters: Another one of the best units in the book. As a gunline, Space Marines have a fairly packed Heavy section where everything is pretty good and you don't really know what to take. Hellblasters are good. Take them instead of your third unit of Devastators if you want.
<Ancient> tip; Gaining full re-rolls to hit (off of Guilliman or Chapter Master), increases your chance of dying and getting more 'free' shots. Bring an Apothecary if you want.
Thuderfire Cannon: Gunners retain Blessing of the Omnissiah, which doesn't affect their ability to shoot at all. So, if you have a Land Raider or Venerable Dreadnought, just sit it next to them. Remember, the Techmarine is a <Character> and so can't be shot at. The Thunderfire Cannon itself, however, is only good because of Tremor Shells (more burning of CPs every turn!). So, just park your Thunderfire out of LoS and just shoot all game. A Gunner only has to be within 3" of a Thunderfire Cannon, and a Vehicle only has to be within 1" of a Techmarine. At no point is base-to-base contact required. In any case, a Thunderfire Cannon relies on a Stratagem to be useful, which means that you never need more than one.

Hunter: Pay a whole bunch of points to miss. Hard pass.

Stalker: It's good when it has re-rolls to hit...Unfortunately, so is pretty much everything. Pass.

Whirlwind: It's only really good if there is a lot of terrain on your board. Otherwise the Thunderfire Cannon is much easier to hide, and comes with a Techmarine.

Predator: They're really good...If you go first, and your Predator Autocannon rolls high for its number of shots. Always bring Heavy Bolters. Always bring at least three Predators. And always go first in order to maximise how good Killshot is... What do you mean you can't guarantee that you'll go first? ...Well then.

Vindicator: It's T8! ...And yet terrible anyway somehow.

Land Raider: It is not a Transport. It carries four Lascannons. It might also have Sergeant Chronus in it, to have BS2+ at all times - remember, Chronus' BS is not affected by the Damage table. Land Raiders are fairly strong models, provided you have a way to fix them...Or you have two of them.

Land Raider Crusader: Run your Melee unit of choice inside (if any), and...That's it. Drive it forwards. Whatever else, its a firebase with two Hurricane Bolters and a Twin Assault Cannon on it. It doesn't even need models inside it to be effective - unless we're talking Chronus.

Land Raider Redeemer: "It's got Flame weapons on it! See, with Flamecraft you-" Stop. Please. Stop. 10" Move (assuming you went first and therefore haven't taken Damage) plus 8" on the weapon gives the 'Raider an 18" threat range (which decreases with Damage). That's not good enough. Flamecraft is not a good Stratagem. Land Raider Redeemers are terrible and rank among one of the worst units in the book - even if you're playing as Salamanders.

Rhino: Moves 10 Melee models around the board. Pretty snazzy. Give it twin Storm Bolters.

Razorback: Take Inceptors or Devastators instead.

Drop Pod: Nope. If you want to get somewhere, use a <Biker> unit with <Fly>...Or just spam Scouts. There's definitely a way you can probably use Drop Pods...But no-one's found it. Yet.

Land Speeder Storm: This Vehicle has no use.

Repulsor: It has a lot of shots. I hope you're re-rolling to hit and to wound. Storm of Fire is extremely handy. As far as damage output goes, they have a lot of things going for them. Unfortunately, as Transports go, they're fairly terrible, as there aren't really any <Primaris> models that you'd ever want to put inside.

Stormhawk Interceptor: It can't Hover Jet and all of it's weapons are Heavy. So, in reality it's BS4+. However, if you keep the Icarus Stormcannon, and pick up the Skyhammer, you'll be hitting models that <Fly> on a 2+, and that's not terrible. Considering that models that <Fly> are generally really good, and you can only use Flakk Missile once per turn. So, yeah. That's what that's for. It's not for everyone, and certainly doesn't have a use in every army. But in certain niche metas it can be very good. But, check before you buy one whether or not it's going to be useful.

Stormraven Gunship: Power of the Machine Spirit and Hover Jet. Take the guns with the most shots; Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, always take Hurricanes. Still, at over 300 Points you're asking for a lot out of a single model. It's not going to work every time, but it will work some of the time. It's always worth having one Stormraven in your collection, just so you can use it every now and then. But, it is 300+ Points so you're not going to run it often. You definitely don't need two Stormravens. Ever.

Stormtalon Gunship: Two Heavy Bolters and a Twin Assault Cannon. Yes, all its weapons are Heavy. But, it gains +1 to Hit against models without <Fly>. So it goes back to BS3+ against most targets. However, it also has Hover Jet which means it doesn't have to move if it doesn't want to, and therefore has BS2+. Stormtalons are okay. Always be careful when you have Vehicles made out of T6 - they don't tend to last too long.

Roboute Guilliman: Costing 400 Points is a lot (Marneus Calgar is only 200, spend whatever you want to get a few more Characters), and he's separate to other HQs that you have to take anyway to make your Battalions/Brigade. Anyway, G-Unit gives you +3CPs when he's your Warlord, and brings the standard Ultramarines' Trait, which isn't that good, and as previously mentioned, even with the +3 CPs, it might not even be worth having Guilliman as your Warlord, depending on your army. As a Primarch, he gives all <Ultramarines> in his Aura flat re-rolls to Hit, and to Wound - that includes Vehicles. He is incredibly strong. However, in addition, he has another Aura that affects all <Imperium> units - including Ultramarines; +1 to Advance and Charge, re-roll 1s To Hit, and he hands out an And They Shall Know No Fear Aura. Brutal. With his 8" Move, as long as the unit in front of him hasn't moved more than 14", he will still affect them - that's amazing. In any case, when Guilliman is killed, roll a 4+ (always save a Command Point), at the end of the Phase, Guilliman gets back up. Unlike Celestine, who gets up immediately (it's fine, she can teleport), Guilliman takes at least two Phases to kill. Even if your opponent has two more Volcano Cannons to fire, Guilliman doesn't get up 'til the end of the Phase, which means that those shots are wasted.
Bobby-G has one more trick; Having The Emperor's Sword. It's better than a Thunder Hammer (S8, -4, D3), that does D3 Mortal Wounds on a 6+ To Wound, in addition to its regular Damage. Remembering that Big Bob re-rolls his own To Wounds.

So good.

Unfortunately, as good as he is. There's some serious debate on whether or not he's even worth 400 Points. Shocking, right? See, as good as Guilliman's Auras are (and they're very good), fact is, the buff is only as good as the unit being buffed, and most Space Marine units just aren't that good. The unit being buffed has to be able to walk in front of Guilliman so he doesn't get shot at - which means no Heavy weapons - and the weapons being used, have to be good enough that they'd be Hitting and Wounding anyway, but that the constant re-rolls merely guarantee it. So, what weapons are S6+, not Heavy (or Assault, really...There's no point Advancing outside his Aura, and then taking -1 to Hit) and come in spammable-ish quantities that justify spending 400 extra Points on them?

Stop reading. Check your Codex.
Have you read the entire Guide up until now? Got a context clue?
That's right.

Hellblasters. At least 15 of 'em.
Remember that Supercharging with re-rolls To Hit, actually increases their chances of dying.
So, bring in Guilliman's personal Ancient friend with the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant (which is basically Guilliman, himself).
Yeah.
That's it.
If you're worried about Guilliman taking targeted Mortal Wounds - it happens, especially against Psyker-heavy armies with access to more-than-Smite. Bring a few Company Veterans to take Mortal Wounds for him - their job is to die, so don't give them anything more than Storm Bolters and Chainswords.

If you're truly, truly desperate, you can bring an Apothecary. But, remember that Guilliman is a <Monster>, he is not <Infantry> and can not be healed...That also means that Guilliman loses access to all the Infantry-based Stratagems, too.

Of course...The other option is to attempt to hide Guilliman out of LoS, and have all of your Heavy Support, Scouts-with-Rifles and Sternguard just hug him. Guilliman's Castle/Gunline is legit. It might not be what you want to play (i.e; Space Marines being cowards hiding in Ruins and never moving the entire game, which, unfortunately is the best way to play Space Marines even if you don't have Guilliman :smallsigh:), but it's legit.

Say it. Repeat it:
Guilliman is only as good as the models around him.

[Turalisj]

If something has fly, can it fall back over intervening models?

[Cheesegear]

Confirmed. Special Issue Ammo is not 'all Bolt weapons', but a specific list.

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31919356_2403709186321473_3888786109898948608_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=3c154bf825246264d58e883dc474830b&oe=5B935760

For those playing at home, Aggressors and Inceptors do not have access to SIA.
Notably, Storm Bolters, do.

[Forum Explorer]

If something has fly, can it fall back over intervening models?

Yes.


Nice guide Cheesegear. Are you going to look at the Christmas Marines as well?

[Cheesegear]

Nice guide Cheesegear. Are you going to look at the Christmas Marines as well?

Definitely. The question isn't what I'm going to do. But when!

[Voidhawk]

Confirmed. Special Issue Ammo is not 'all Bolt weapons', but a specific list.

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31919356_2403709186321473_3888786109898948608_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=3c154bf825246264d58e883dc474830b&oe=5B935760

For those playing at home, Aggressors and Inceptors do not have access to SIA.
Notably, Storm Bolters, do.

What's a "Hellfire Extremis" when it's at home? One of the relics maybe?

If storm bolters do get it, will that mean a Deathwatch Rhino will be able to use them?

[Cheesegear]

What's a "Hellfire Extremis" when it's at home? One of the relics maybe?

It's the gun that Captain Artemis uses.


If storm bolters do get it, will that mean a Deathwatch Rhino will be able to use them?

SIA is a special ability. Not all units have it, and certainly not Vehicles.

[Professor Gnoll]

What's a "Hellfire Extremis" when it's at home? One of the relics maybe?
It's Watch-Captain Artemis's unique Combi-Flamer.

[LeSwordfish]

If something has fly, can it fall back over intervening models?

Yes.

I really need to update the CSM and Death Guard guides with the FAQ results.

[Cheesegear]

But Cheesegear, how does Soup even work?

Adeptus Astartes, Supreme Command (+1 CP)
Captain on Bike; Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield (White Scars)
Librarian with Jump Pack; Force Stave (Raven Guard; Raven's Fury; Veil of Time; Might of Heroes)
Sergeant Chronus* (Ultramarines)

Vanguard Veterans; x4 Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shields (Raven Guard)

*Razorback; Storm Bolter, Twin Assault Cannon (Ultramarines)

(W) Roboute Guilliman (Ultramarines; Adept of the Codex; +3 CPs)

There are no Troops. So Objective Secured doesn't matter.

Chapter Tactics;
None of the Ultramarines here, need to Fall Back - Guilliman's not Falling Back from anything...Except maybe a Lord of Skulls...Maybe.
The White Scar doesn't intend to Fall Back and Charge again - giving his opponent free Overwatch. The loss of +2" to Advance might hurt. But it should be okay.
The Raven Guard have no interest in -1 to hit, because aren't they already in combat?

It's a Space Marine Detachment, so you get access to the Stratagems;
Born in the Saddle - The White Scar can Advance (auto-6" = Move 20") and Charge in the same turn. The Librarian moves behind him. Veil of Time and Might of Heroes both target <Adeptus Astartes> models. So, if the White Scar wants to make a slightly longer Charge because he doesn't want to hit the unit that's 4" in front of him, he can go for something else. Or, he can manifest Might of Heroes instead, on any model he wants. Probably even the Thunder Hammer in the Vanguard unit?
Strike from the Shadows - Obvious.

Guilliman - the Warlord - gives access to Space Marine Relics.
Raven's Fury - Allows the Librarian to Advance and Charge in the same turn (Advancing doesn't prevent you from manifesting Powers), and re-roll failed Charges.

Chronus doesn't give a **** about Chapter Tactics 'cause he's in a Vehicle. But he still has the <Ultramarines> Keyword, so he hugs Guilliman, 'cause why wouldn't he?
A Lieutenant would be a cheaper tax. But I like Twin Assault Cannons hanging around Guilliman.

[bluntpencil]

So, looking at the Deathwatch leaks...

I'm thinking - loads of Storm Bolters.

It'll require a lot of sawing, but, basically, for only a small increase in points, my Veterans just got twice as deadly. My Stalker bolters are staying as is, due to getting bonus AP.

My bikes and Vanguards are no longer going to be in their own squads, but will use Combat Squads, to split off as 2 Vanguards, 3 Bikes, to get the best of both worlds - Toughness 5, and Storm Shields.

Terminators with Cyclones might team up with some Lascannons in a Kill-Team, in order to take full advantage of Doctrine stratagems, so they all get +1 to wound when shooting tanks. A few Veterans tanking hits with Storm Shields there will be nice, too.

[Cheesegear]

I'm thinking - loads of Storm Bolters.

With Deathwatch Veterans in the Troops slot, and SIA now applying on Storm Bolters and Combi-Weapons; Sternguard are officially a dead unit.

EDIT:
I also love the idea of a single Reiver in a Primaris Kill Team.
Reiver: Yeah, I've got a knife and a skull mask! I'm going to sit in the corner and be edgy. Everyone in the squad hates me 'cause I'm just too cool. Yeah. Lone Wolf. That's me.
Other: WE HATE YOU 'CAUSE YOU SUCK.
Reiver: Don't judge me! You don't know my story!
Other: WE KNOW YOU SUCK. Wolves get kicked out of the pack 'cause they're sick or lame. Lone wolves are the literally the worst wolves in their social structure.
Reiver: They must be being affected by my Terror Troops rule.
Other: Only noobs take Morale tests. Take off that stupid mask.
Reiver: They don't realise how much I help them with my Shock Grenades.
Other: You mean that thing we never use because Knives are stupid. Have you seen how our guns are AP-1 and always wound on a 2+? Why the **** would we ever Charge someone?
Reiver: They just don't understand me. Everyone sucks except me.
Other: Yeah, okay dude.

[Requizen]

Confirmed. Special Issue Ammo is not 'all Bolt weapons', but a specific list.

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31919356_2403709186321473_3888786109898948608_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=3c154bf825246264d58e883dc474830b&oe=5B935760

For those playing at home, Aggressors and Inceptors do not have access to SIA.
Notably, Storm Bolters, do.

Then what do Primaris get for being Deathwatch, other than a bitchin color scheme and some rerolls against Xenos?

[hamishspence]

Bolt rifles, and their variants, are Intercessor weapons, and they're on the list. As are Bolt Carbines. So Primaris Intercessors, Reivers, and many Primaris characters, have SIA.

[Turalisj]

So things people don't actually take primaris for?

[Cheesegear]

Then what do Primaris get for being Deathwatch, other than a bitchin color scheme and some rerolls against Xenos?

Aggressors, Inceptors and Hellblasters? Nothing at all.
The huge buff, falls to Intercessors - and Reivers, I guess, if I have to..

As I said earlier, I don't expect much out of Deathwatch. It feels like - and is confirmed, now - that Deathwatch are a lot like Custodes. No-one is realistically going to play them as a stand-alone force, and so whatever the best unit(s) are in Deathwatch (e.g; Intercessors) they're going to be cherry-picked out and the rest of the Codex will rot.

I expect that if a player already has Aggressors, Inceptors and Hellbasters painted in their Chapters' colour of choice, then they should leave them that way.
If you buy one box of Aggressors and/or Inceptors, you're done. Paint them up as Deathwatch, and you have 3 buffs to 3 units of Intercessors. Where the Aggressor gives Intercessors Relentless, and the Inceptor gives <Fly> for the purposes of Falling Back. But the Aggressor and Inceptor themselves, gain no benefit at all.

However, if you have non-Dark Imperium Intercessors, you should definitely be stripping them and repainting them and getting them new pauldrons.*

Troops slots in Codex Chapters belong to Scouts, now.

*I'm currently in trouble as my Ultramarines are all painted as Deathwatch. But I also want to use actual Deathwatch, alongside my Ultramarines.

[Drasius]

*I'm currently in trouble as my Ultramarines are all painted as Deathwatch. But I also want to use actual Deathwatch, alongside my Ultramarines.

Obvious solution is Obvious, no? Deathwatch are Ultras because that's how you painted RG and Imperial Fists are Deathwatch, because I know you have more Sternguard than you can shake a stick at and that's close enough to SIA and they're fancier than generic tacticals.

[Cheesegear]

Deathwatch models are exactly the same points cost as their Codex counterparts.

However, everything that gets affected by Special Issue Ammunition is 1 Point more expensive.
Okay, yeah. Intercessors are broken now.


because I know you have more Sternguard than you can shake a stick at and that's close enough to SIA and they're fancier than generic tacticals.

The problem is that my Pedro Kantor and 30 Sternguard are painted like Deathwatch. :smallwink:

[Drasius]

The problem is that my Pedro Kantor and 30 Sternguard are painted like Deathwatch. :smallwink:

In that case, Yellow is the new Black (and Silver). Use your bright yellow goons as DW and be happy you got a chance to put them on the table, even if they aren't being used as themselves.

[bluntpencil]

I think I'm going to saw all the chainswords and boltguns off my Veterans, and give them Storm Bolters and Storm Shields now. Their job is now to spray shots and tank hits for the heavy weapons.

[Cheesegear]

In that case, Yellow is the new Black (and Silver).

The alternative is that I pull something that I think is lazy*; Just make it so squad markings are different. Differentiate my Detachments.

1. I don't use squad markings, 'cause it destroys my ability to mix 'n' match my models per squad - specifically the Sergeant, Special and/or Heavy weapon. However, Primaris Marines have no options, and all Sergeants are practically identical (unless the Deathwatch Codex gives them options, but I doubt it). So painting squad markings on Primaris Marines doesn't actually hamstring you.
1a. Go a step further, and despite the fluff being red markings only, I can paint my Ultramarines' units squad markings, blue.

2. I already have made sure that all my Sergeants have Ultramarine shoulder pads. As per the Deathwatch RPG, the squad generally takes on the tactics of the Leader. I could probably go a step further, and make it so that all of my Ultramarines' Deathwatch, have Ultramarine (or Successor) shoulder pads.

*It's only hypocritical if I don't say/accept that I am also lazy, and pretend that when I do it, it's okay. But the boat's already gone, as well as scuttled and sunk, as for roughly half of 7th Ed. I ran yellow White Scars.

[9mm]

I ran yellow White Scars.

The joys of white armor in a reeaallly bad pollen season.

[*.*.*.*]

What’s the best 30k units for Chaos Marines? I’m running some SoH and wanting to avoid daemon engines and use heresy technology as a fluff thing

[Cheesegear]

I’m running some SoH and wanting to avoid daemon engines and use heresy technology as a fluff thing

By Sons of Horus, do you mean Black Legion Legion Traits? In which case it's pretty weak, and you're in for a mostly bad time.
Are you so Pre-Heresy that you aren't using Marks of Chaos?

[*.*.*.*]

By Sons of Horus, do you mean Black Legion Legion Traits? In which case it's pretty weak, and you're in for a mostly bad time.
Are you so Pre-Heresy that you aren't using Marks of Chaos?

Nah, I just run the color scheme and use Renegade rules. I also use marks. I stopped playing CSM a while back due to frustration and worked on my traitor guard and Nids, but Im ‘done’ with those projects and want to return to my SoH. I just wanted to do a list with little Daemon support and plenty of pre-heresy units.

[Voidhawk]

Nah, I just run the color scheme and use Renegade rules. I also use marks. I stopped playing CSM a while back due to frustration and worked on my traitor guard and Nids, but Im ‘done’ with those projects and want to return to my SoH. I just wanted to do a list with little Daemon support and plenty of pre-heresy units.

Renegades get to Advance+Charge, so they want lots of Bikers with the Icon of Wrath, a Sorcerer with Warptime, and a Helldrake or two. Then you just charge everything important in your opponents army turn 1. On turn 2 hopefully your second wave (likely beserkers) has been bought enough time to get in position for the killing blow.

But if you're not married to any particular rules, then the question is mostly just "How do I do Chaos?". Which pretty much means Alpha Legion.

[Cheesegear]

Renegades get to Advance+Charge, so they want lots of Bikers with the Icon of Wrath, a Sorcerer with Warptime, and a Heldrake or two.

He's already specifically said that he doesn't want Daemons. So, Raptors - Warp Talons are much better, but...Daemons.
Slaanesh Havocs are also...Something. Flakk Missiles are rad.

[Grim Portent]

If appearance is more important than the presence or absence of DAEMON then Warp Talons could be replaced by an appropriately equipped MKIII or MKIV marine, they're just raptors with silly helmets and dual claws after all.

[Requizen]

If appearance is more important than the presence or absence of DAEMON then Warp Talons could be replaced by an appropriately equipped MKIII or MKIV marine, they're just raptors with silly helmets and dual claws after all.

Similarly, you can find plenty of examples of Centurions kitbashed into Obliterators. I generally like those better than the Finecast, too.

[LeSwordfish]

Similarly, you can find plenty of examples of Centurions kitbashed into Obliterators. I generally like those better than the Finecast, too.

I always wanted to use Kataphron servitors as obliterators - they'd go well in a heresy-times list too.

[*.*.*.*]

Thanks for the suggestions. Anyone got any experience with the FW stuff?

[Cheesegear]

Got a small tournament next week.
I can't decide if it's worth -1 CP to take a Vexillus Praetor.

[LansXero]

How do the +1 to dice rolls work with the '1 is always a miss' rule?. Like, if I shoot plasma into guardsmen and pop the DW strat that adds +1 to wound, do I still fail on rolls of 1?

[Turalisj]

The 1 becomes a 2.

[Cheesegear]

How do the +1 to dice rolls work with the '1 is always a miss' rule? Like, if I shoot plasma into guardsmen and pop the DW strat that adds +1 to wound, do I still fail on rolls of 1?

Have you read the To Wound rules?
Page 181 / Resolve Attacks. At the bottom.


The 1 becomes a 2.

Sure it does. But does it still fail?

[LeSwordfish]

Got a small tournament next week.
I can't decide if it's worth -1 CP to take a Vexillus Praetor.

You're running mostly scouts, right? Would you spend 1CP on a stratagem that says "Treat all AP values of more than -1 as -1 when shooting at units near this guy" and that stratagem lasts all game? Because I think I would.

[Forum Explorer]

How do the +1 to dice rolls work with the '1 is always a miss' rule?. Like, if I shoot plasma into guardsmen and pop the DW strat that adds +1 to wound, do I still fail on rolls of 1?

It's still a miss.

[Cheesegear]

You're running mostly scouts, right? Would you spend 1CP on a stratagem that says "Treat all AP values of more than -1 as -1 when shooting at units near this guy" and that stratagem lasts all game? Because I think I would.

Well, in a tournament list; I'm running 15 Hellblasters with Emperor Ascendant.
Their intent is to die.
However, if I give them all a 5++, there's a chance that they wont die.
However, given that I know Codex Marines is one of the worst Codecies in the game right now, there's a chance that my Hellblasters could die too quickly without an Invulnerable.
Choices are hard. Especially when your Codex is bad.

[9mm]

Well, in a tournament list; I'm running 15 Hellblasters with Emperor Ascendant.
Their intent is to die.
However, if I give them all a 5++, there's a chance that they wont die.
However, given that I know Codex Marines is one of the worst Codecies in the game right now, there's a chance that my Hellblasters could die too quickly without an Invulnerable.
Choices are hard. Especially when your Codex is bad.

I'm assuming you can't make like the taco commercial and do both?

[Cheesegear]

I'm assuming you can't make like the taco commercial and do both?

Can I make them more survivable, but also make sure that they can die?
I don't think so.

[Turalisj]

I'm confused..... Why are you trying to suicide the best unit SM have?

[Cheesegear]

I'm confused..... Why are you trying to suicide the best unit SM have?

Emperor Ascendant is the best Relic in the book.

[LeSwordfish]

Don't get me wrong, I see why a free shot when you die is incredibly powerful. I just don't see why it's something to aim for, as opposed to a nice extra treat when you eventually kick it. After all, if you don't die, you get to shoot again the following turn anyway. Unless it's about frontloading shots as much as possible? Which I still don't entirely get since it's not like getting charged is too worrying.

[Voidhawk]

The way I see it, there are two options:
1) The Hellblasters fail their 5++s and die. In which case you at least get free bonus shots, and the enemy probably had to use more firepower than they wanted because of said 5++. Or,
2) They don't die. In which case you're probably going to win (since you've previously say they're the best unit in the book).

[LeSwordfish]

The way I see it, there are two options:
1) The Hellblasters fail their 5++s and die. In which case you at least get free bonus shots, and the enemy probably had to use more firepower than they wanted because of said 5++. Or,
2) They don't die. In which case you're probably going to win (since you've previously say they're the best unit in the book).

That's a good way of looking at it, actually. The Hellblasters will die one way or another, you'll get your free shots one way or another: how much fire do you want your opponent to spend doing it?

[Requizen]

And then just add an Apoc and bring them back for more shooting. Win/win/win.

[Cheesegear]

And then just add an Apoc and bring them back for more shooting. Win/win/win.

Apothecaries are a waste of points.

[Yaktan]

Here is my Tau list I have noodled up. I am thinking of running it in our store's summer league.

Surprise!

Vior'la Battalion
Commander, Coldstar, 4x Fusion - 174
Ethereal, Hover Drone - 50
6x5 Breachers - 210

T'au Battalion
Commander, xV8, DC, 3x MP, PENchip - 149
Fireblade, (W) Through Unity, Devastation - 42
4x5 Strikers - 140
10x Kroot - 50
6x Marker Drones - 60
2x4 Gun Drones - 96

T'au Vanguard
Shadowsun, all drones - 195
Darkstrider - 45
Ghostkeel, CIR, Fusion, TL, Shield - 203
Ghostkeel, CIR, Fusion, TL, Shield - 203
6x Stealth, 2x Fusion, 2x Shield Drones - 214
3x Stealth, Fusion, 2x Shield Drones - 117
Pathfinders, 3x Ion - 52

Total: 2000


The idea is that the ghostkeels, stealth suits, and shadowsun infiltrate and take control of the midfield. I have all the models, though I need to put together my second ghostkeel.

I do like the horde tau idea I have going, and it has served me well in the past to flood the board and go for objectives. The coldstar and gun drones help give me the ability to respond to stuff in different areas (the gun drones will be doing SUA)

And if my enemy wants to use their heavy weapons, while have fun shooting at -2 and trying to get through a 4++, and that is after you get through 6 shield drones. Troll lol lol. :smallamused:

[Requizen]

https://twitter.com/pegastyx/status/994672685903941633

Rogue Trader! (But not TTRPG).

Wait, so with this and Kill Team, they'll have two different skirmish level games set in the same setting? I wonder how that'll work.

Edit: and of course, Necromunda. Won't they all kinda compete with one another?

[Aresneo]

https://twitter.com/pegastyx/status/994672685903941633

Rogue Trader! (But not TTRPG).

Wait, so with this and Kill Team, they'll have two different skirmish level games set in the same setting? I wonder how that'll work.

Edit: and of course, Necromunda. Won't they all kinda compete with one another?

I'd expect that Rogue Trader and Kill Team will likely use compatible rules, Necromunda is thematically different enough that it can be its own thing.

[Blackhawk748]

https://twitter.com/pegastyx/status/994672685903941633

Rogue Trader! (But not TTRPG).

Wait, so with this and Kill Team, they'll have two different skirmish level games set in the same setting? I wonder how that'll work.

Edit: and of course, Necromunda. Won't they all kinda compete with one another?

Your link is dead

[The_Admiral]

Let us iterate again and again and again!


Stygies Battalion
1x Techpriest Dominus
1x Techpriest Enginseer

5 Squads of 5 Rangers

1 Squad of 3 Sydonian Dragoons

2 Neutron Crawlers
1 Icarus Crawler

Mars Patrol
Cawl

1 Squad of 3 Breachers

1 Squad of 6 Dakka Kastelans



so yeah, need more people to rip this thing apart.

[Turalisj]

Breachers are the worst thing in the codex, except maybe compared to enginseers.

[The_Admiral]

Breachers are the worst thing in the codex, except maybe compared to enginseers.

I know, I would use Destroyers but the are literally here for 1 reason, Elimination Volley, -1 to hit is a nightmare, robots hitting on 5's is not something I like. Or are they just not worth it and the points should go into more dragoons?

[Blackhawk748]

I know, I would use Destroyers but the are literally here for 1 reason, Elimination Volley, -1 to hit is a nightmare, robots hitting on 5's is not something I like. Or are they just not worth it and the points should go into more dragoons?

They are, I loved the little buggers last Ed, but they dont hav enough shots. Bring Destroyers (i prefer Grav) and point them at something you want to die. Also, do you really need Cawl?

[The_Admiral]

They are, I loved the little buggers last Ed, but they dont hav enough shots. Bring Destroyers (i prefer Grav) and point them at something you want to die. Also, do you really need Cawl?

yeah fair, I'll be cutting them anyway. I need more points for filler for my armies and volley only works with destroyers, don't really like the fact that admech lacks large filler units.


Stygies Battalion
1x Techpriest Dominus
1x Techpriest Enginseer

5 Squads of 5 Rangers

1 Squad of 4 Sydonian Dragoons

2 Neutron Crawlers
1 Icarus Crawler

Mars Patrol
Cawl

1 Squad of 5 Rangers

1 Squad of 6 Dakka Kastelans



As for needing Cawl? I can't think of another way of putting out a stupid number of wounds past Magnus like units

[Requizen]

Your link is dead

https://twitter.com/pegastyx/status/994678471464050688

Fixed!

[Forum Explorer]

I know, I would use Destroyers but the are literally here for 1 reason, Elimination Volley, -1 to hit is a nightmare, robots hitting on 5's is not something I like. Or are they just not worth it and the points should go into more dragoons?

More dragoons is always solid.

My only other concern would be that going pure Dakka Bots gives your army exactly 0 melee. Now if you're buying in 100% to the gunline meta, I guess, but them not having any melee makes them kinda easy for fast armies to deal with them. You charge something, anything, into them and they can't shoot. It's worth considering the fists just so your army has some punch to it. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Things that ruled the first major tournament weekend since the Errata;

1. First Turn Charges
2. Gunlines
3. Gunlines with a unit or two that had the ability to make a first turn Charge.

[Tome]

Things that ruled the first major tournament weekend since the Errata;

1. First Turn Charges
2. Gunlines
3. Gunlines with a unit or two that had the ability to make a first turn Charge.

Soooo, basically take the old meta and switch in "first turn charges" in place of "SUA alpha strikes"?

[Requizen]

Things that ruled the first major tournament weekend since the Errata;

1. First Turn Charges
2. Gunlines
3. Gunlines with a unit or two that had the ability to make a first turn Charge.

Which event? I'd like to see the results.

[Cheesegear]

Straight up, I wish people would stop calling the army you play, based on your Warlord.
The army you play, is the Keyword that unites all your Detachments. Come on.

SoS
8. Alaitoc

Catachan
Company Commander
Primaris Psyker

Infantry Squad; Mortar
Infantry Squad; Mortar
Infantry Squad; Mortar

Sergeant Harker

Basilisks (x2)
Basilisks (x2)

Custodes
Dawneagle Captain
Dawneagle Captain
Dawneagle Captain

Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Enginseer

Fulgurite Electro-Priests (x15)
Fulgurite Electro-Priests (x15)
Fulgurite Electro-Priests (x15)

How the **** is this Cult Mechanicus?

6. Ynnari
5. Custodes
4. Tallarn

???, Battalion
Neurothrope
The Swarmlord

Genestealers (x19)
Genestealers (x19)
Ripper Swarm (x3)
Ripper Swarm (x3)
Ripper Swarm (x3)

Hive Guard (x6)

Gargoyles (x12)

Supreme Command
Hive Tyrant with Wings; Devourers (x2), Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Hive Tyrant with Wings; Devourers (x2), Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Hive Tyrant with Wings; Devourers (x2), Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Fort
Sporocyst; Barbed Stranglers & Mucloids.

???, Battalion
Hive Tyrant with Wings; Devourers (x2), Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Onslaught, Psychic Scream
The Swarmlord

Genestealers (x17); x4 Acid Maws, Rending Claws
Hormagaunts (x29)
Ripper Swarm (x3)

Hive Guard (x5) ???

GSC, Battalion
Magus
Primus

Acolyte Hybrids; Heavy Rocksaw
Acolyte Hybrids; Heavy Rocksaw
Acolyte Hybrids; Heavy Rocksaw
Acolyte Hybrids; Heavy Rocksaw
Acolyte Hybrids; Heavy Rocksaw
Acolyte Hybrids; Heavy Rocksaw

Neophyte Hybrids (x8)
Neophyte Hybrids (x8)

Spearhead
Company Commander
Tank Commander; Punisher

Mortars
Mortars
Mortars

Black Heart Kabal, Battalion
Archon; Blaster, Labyrynthine Cunning
Archon; Blaster, Phanny Launcher, Writ of the Living Muse

Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster

Ravager; Dizzy Cannon
Ravager; Dizzy Cannon
Ravager; Dizzy Cannon

Raider; Dizzy Cannon
Raider; Dizzy Cannon
Venom
Venom

Alaitoc, Outrider
Farseer Skyrunner
Swooping Hawks (x5); Exarch
Swooping Hawks (x5); Exarch
Swooping Hawks (x5); Exarch

Alaitoc, Air Wing
Hemlock
Hemlock
Crimson Hunter

1999

Alamo GT
8. T'au

Death Guard, Spearhead
(W) Daemon Prince; Wings, Talons, Plate Not sure how this was reported as Thousand Sons

Poxwalkers (x14)

Foetid Bloat Drones (x2); Splitterz
Foetid Bloat Drones (x2); Splitterz

Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

Thousand Sons
Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince with Wings; Talons

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought; Chainclaws, Soulburners
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought; Chainclaws, Soulburners
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought; Chainclaws, Soulburners

6. Alaitoc
5. T'au

Biel-Tan
(W) Yvraine
Farseer
Warlock; Spirit Stones of Anath'lan

Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x5)
Rangers (x5)

Shining Spears (x9)

Dark Reapers (x10); Tempest Launcher

Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent

Alaitoc, Air Wing
Crimson Hunter; Bright Lances
Crimson Hunter; Bright Lances
Hemlock; Spirit Stones

Outrider
Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetors
Vertus Praetors

Cadian
Company Commander
Company Commander

Infantry Squad; Mortar
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad

Mortars
Mortars
Mortars

Red Grief
Succubus; Archite Glaive
Succubus; Archite Glaive

Wyches (x5); Shardnet & Impaler
Wyches (x5); Shardnet & Impaler
Wyches (x5); Shardnet & Impaler

Black Heart
Archon; ???, Lab Cunning, Writ
Archon; Blast Pistol, Hexlade

Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5); Blaster
Kabalite Warriors (x5)

Lhamaen

Ravager; Dizzy Cannons
Ravager; Dark Lances
Ravager; Dark Lances

Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom

???
Haemonculus; Electro Whip

Talos; Haywire, Scalpel
Talos; Haywire, Scalpel
Cronos; Spirit Probe

Black Hand, Spearhead
Archon; Blast Pistol, Hexblade, Labyrythian Cunning, Writ

Ravager; Dizzy Cannons
Ravager; Dizzy Cannons
Ravager; Dizzy Cannons

Razorwing; Dizzy Cannons
Razorwing; Dizzy Cannons

Raider; Dizzy Cannon
Raider; Dizzy Cannon
Venom
Venom

Cult of Strife
Lelith Hesperax - Blood Dancer
Succubus; Archite, Blast Pistol

Wyches (x8); Shardnet, Agoniser and Blast Pistol
Wyches (x5); Shardnet, Agoniser and Blast Pistol
Wyches (x5); Shardnet, Agoniser and Blast Pistol

Prophets of the Flesh
Haemonculus; Electro Whip, Vexator Mask
Haemonculus; Electro Whip, Helm of Spite

Wracks (x5); Electro Whips
Wracks (x5); Electro Whips
Wracks (x5); Electro Whips

Grotesques (x9); Electro Whip

Bring a Patrol and Celestine, she's your Warlord. The other 1700 Points is Guard.
At the end of the year/Season, you will be declared best Sisters' General by the ITC, and get a trophy or whatever.
Because that's apparently how tournament reporting works in the 'States.

[Tome]

I'd really like to see what was in those two Tau lists and how they worked.

[Cheesegear]

I'd really like to see what was in those two Tau lists and how they worked.

I'm sure we'll find out when full net-lists come out - except given that they're 5 and 8, I wouldn't bet on it.

[9mm]

Bring a Patrol and Celestine, she's your Warlord. The other 1700 Points is Guard.
At the end of the year/Season, you will be declared best Sisters' General by the ITC, and get a trophy or whatever.
Because that's apparently how tournament reporting works in the 'States.

outside of the mechanicis, and thousands suns, they all seem reletivley correctly named.

[Renegade Paladin]

Straight up, I wish people would stop calling the army you play, based on your Warlord.
The army you play, is the Keyword that unites all your Detachments. Come on.

...

Bring a Patrol and Celestine, she's your Warlord. The other 1700 Points is Guard.
At the end of the year/Season, you will be declared best Sisters' General by the ITC, and get a trophy or whatever.
Because that's apparently how tournament reporting works in the 'States.
Ummmm... No, that's not how ITC reporting is supposed to work at all. Army faction for ITC purposes is the detachment with the most points, not the warlord.

[Blackhawk748]

yeah fair, I'll be cutting them anyway. I need more points for filler for my armies and volley only works with destroyers, don't really like the fact that admech lacks large filler units.


Stygies Battalion
1x Techpriest Dominus
1x Techpriest Enginseer

5 Squads of 5 Rangers

1 Squad of 4 Sydonian Dragoons

2 Neutron Crawlers
1 Icarus Crawler

Mars Patrol
Cawl

1 Squad of 5 Rangers

1 Squad of 6 Dakka Kastelans



As for needing Cawl? I can't think of another way of putting out a stupid number of wounds past Magnus like units

More Dakka Bots?


More dragoons is always solid.

My only other concern would be that going pure Dakka Bots gives your army exactly 0 melee. Now if you're buying in 100% to the gunline meta, I guess, but them not having any melee makes them kinda easy for fast armies to deal with them. You charge something, anything, into them and they can't shoot. It's worth considering the fists just so your army has some punch to it. :smallwink:

The Dakka Bots are fine at just punching stuff without the fists.

[Drasius]

So, Titanicus can't be too far away now since there's actual minis to be seen (blurry things that might possibly be minis anyway)
https://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2018/5/11/948015_sm-Adeptus%20Titanicus%202018.jpg

[Yaktan]

Those are definitely some sort of titans on the top shelf.

I would also be interested in the top-8 tau lists.

Also that #2 Dark Eldar list is somewhat disgusting. 9 venoms. So much for stopping spam. :smallyuk:

[Cheesegear]

Also that #2 Dark Eldar list is somewhat disgusting. 9 venoms. So much for stopping spam.

If you have good Troops or Transports, use 'em.

This has led many a dumb commentator to say 'Gladius is back!', except neglects to mention that Razorbacks are terrible, and Venoms are great.

[Forum Explorer]

Those are definitely some sort of titans on the top shelf.

I would also be interested in the top-8 tau lists.

Also that #2 Dark Eldar list is somewhat disgusting. 9 venoms. So much for stopping spam. :smallyuk:

Everything being in a boat is pretty much how Dark Eldar has always played. Besides, it's not like any of those Venoms are empty.

[Hootman]

Gonna be bringing da boyz back to squash some Nids tomorrow, and I was thinking of using this list.

Warboss on Bike (W)
-Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Kombiskorcha, Attack Squig
-Legendary Fighter trait
Big Mek
-Kustom Force Field
Weirdboy
-Da Jump power

Choppa Boyz 30
-Nob with PK, 3 Big Shootas
Shoota Boyz 20
-Nob with PK, 2 Big Shootas
Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10

Nob with WAAAGH!Banner
Painboy on Bike
Tankbustas 10
-Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs
+Trukk with Big Shoota

Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK
Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK
Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK

Battlewagon
-4 Big Shootas
Mek Gunz 3
-3 KMK's
Mek Gunz 3
-3 KMK's


Any suggestions for what to swap around? And what to do with the last 100ish points?

[Renegade Paladin]

Gonna be bringing da boyz back to squash some Nids tomorrow, and I was thinking of using this list.

Warboss on Bike (W)
-Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Kombiskorcha, Attack Squig
-Legendary Fighter trait
Big Mek
-Kustom Force Field
Weirdboy
-Da Jump power

Choppa Boyz 30
-Nob with PK, 3 Big Shootas
Shoota Boyz 20
-Nob with PK, 2 Big Shootas
Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10

Nob with WAAAGH!Banner
Painboy on Bike
Tankbustas 10
-Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs
+Trukk with Big Shoota

Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK
Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK
Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK

Battlewagon
-4 Big Shootas
Mek Gunz 3
-3 KMK's
Mek Gunz 3
-3 KMK's


Any suggestions for what to swap around? And what to do with the last 100ish points?

Another Weirdboy with Warpath. The Da Jump/Warpath combo was a staple of every Ork list in the tournament I just ran, and it was working pretty well.

[Forum Explorer]

Gonna be bringing da boyz back to squash some Nids tomorrow, and I was thinking of using this list.

Warboss on Bike (W)
-Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Kombiskorcha, Attack Squig
-Legendary Fighter trait
Big Mek
-Kustom Force Field
Weirdboy
-Da Jump power

Choppa Boyz 30
-Nob with PK, 3 Big Shootas
Shoota Boyz 20
-Nob with PK, 2 Big Shootas
Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10

Nob with WAAAGH!Banner
Painboy on Bike
Tankbustas 10
-Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs
+Trukk with Big Shoota

Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK
Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK
Stormboyz 10
-Nob with PK

Battlewagon
-4 Big Shootas
Mek Gunz 3
-3 KMK's
Mek Gunz 3
-3 KMK's


Any suggestions for what to swap around? And what to do with the last 100ish points?

I'd drop the Big Shootas to get the Shoota boyz up to 30. At the very least drop the Big Shootas in the Choppa Boyz. If they aren't advancing, it's because they are already in combat.




The Dakka Bots are fine at just punching stuff without the fists.

Not really. 3 Attacks at 4+ to hit, then 3+ to wound. They might have to make a single armor save per robot? It's pretty worth it to shut down their shooting by locking them in combat. Even if they'd eventually win, they aren't winning very quickly.

[Cheesegear]

I would also be interested in the top-8 tau lists.

If the derision of the Codex is correct...

~80+ Fire Warriors, 3 Ghostkoolz, and Hammerheads.

[Hootman]

Another Weirdboy with Warpath. The Da Jump/Warpath combo was a staple of every Ork list in the tournament I just ran, and it was working pretty well.
Did they do anything special to make it into combat? As we all know, a 9" charge isn't a very sure thing, even with a reroll.

Something that has been bothering me: with the changes to how characters work, Da Jump can't be used in conjunction with Painboyz or Waaagh!Banner Nobs. Are people just not using aura characters with Orks?


I'd drop the Big Shootas to get the Shoota boyz up to 30. At the very least drop the Big Shootas in the Choppa Boyz. If they aren't advancing, it's because they are already in combat.

I had initially planned to put the Shoota Boyz in the Battlewagon, hence the squad size. Is that not worth doing?

Also, Big Shootas are assault weapons, if I'm not mistaken, and can be fired while advancing. Still, they HAD been on my list of things to reconsider, since they'll only be hitting on 6s most of the time, and the points could probably go elsewhere.

[Mystic Muse]

Just finished second escalation league game.

Tyranids versus Thousand Sons, 750 points.

Me:
Flying Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Rending Claws.
Flying Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Rending Claws.

One unit of Six hive guard.

Three units of vanilla termagants.

Him:
Ahriman on Disk of Tzeentch.
Chaos Predator.
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch.
Squad of Rubric Marines.
2 squads of 11 cultists.


He conceded when I was down to my Warlord and 6 gants, and he was down to 22 cultists at the end of turn 3 I believe.

I smote Ahriman to death too, I'm calling that some sort of victory.

[LeSwordfish]

Yesterday I tried out the Planetstrike rules, the Stranglehold game where the defender has to hold three objectives. With the seven fortifications that were built into the board, my opponent got fourteen firestorm attacks. Below, here is a Before and After shot of that.

https://i.imgur.com/xKTpqeQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/dpqctCm.png

No full battle report again, but that was actually somehow not the end of it.

A very poor series of reserve rolls had my opponent's army come on piecemeal, and I was able to use my Icarus lascannons to kill her Hive Tyrant and Tyrannofex turn one, without doing very much else.
With genestealers bearing down on my command squad, they hop inside the mega-bunker - though, because the capacity is only one squad, the larger group of guardsmen needs to get out first. Must have been a bit of an awkward conversation.
She doesn't have that much synapse. If, on turn two, twenty-four lascannons and my shiny new scions can kill six warriors, half the gaunts on the board break and run and I can safely leave that flank... I fail so bad. Perhaps six of those lascannons hit in total, and I end up barely killing three. Honestly, I think that flunk lost it more than the loss of a thousand points of tanks in turn one.
At the end of turn three, I have two battered squads of guardsmen on and around my final redoubt, with my command squad and company commander, as literally seventy gaunts and genestealers swarm it with carnifexes behind. My commander sells his life against a broodlord, allowing the enginseer to head below and detonate the vortex warheads. I play the "automatically explode your building" stratagem, and, with 2d6 mortal wounds on everything, go out in the most imperial guard way possible.

[Cheesegear]

No surprises to anyone (surely);

Deathwatch Veterans
Deathwatch Frag Cannons are bananas. But the 8" effective range neuters them. It's possible to use them to defend against Turn 1 Charges. But your opponent still has a Shooting phase, and your models are 41 Points each. Gross.
Storm Bolters roll face against all Infantry, almost regardless of ammo type.
Flamers & Heavy Flamers are both 'pretty good', but 8" range weapons on models that don't move fast have been dead since 8th Ed. started.
Boltguns and Heavy Bolters are still...Fine. If you don't have the willingness or the resources to start cutting up all your models to put Storm Bolters on them, don't worry about it. Save your points.
If you're using Deathwatch Veterans to bust Vehicles (you're doing it wrong), Plasma Guns will do in a pinch.

How do Intercessors stack up, now that Veterans got their points reduction?
Intercessors with Bolt Rifles are equivalent to Deathwatch Veterans with Boltguns, and don't hold a candle to Storm Bolters. Everything else is more expensive, and therefore pretty much automatically worse.
However, non-Dark Angel Intercessors are now worse than Deathwatch ones.

[Drasius]

Less blurry pics of the new Titanicus models and the terrain.

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32313758_1797238720296716_5573525441647476736_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=e4407b64dcaf9bad7030651c1f5665b5&oe=5B8874FF
https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32260648_1797238940296694_655409831821180928_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=0&oh=9537da0ca1b5cd8f76cfcd7c8bd41324&oe=5B939890
https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31598688_1797239980296590_5196228765310517248_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=6dd7ae4933fa975af729dbaeb06e64ba&oe=5B962FE2

This might be enough to get me to bust my paints out again, very excite, much hype.

[Drasius]

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32267178_10215413259825327_2550106329142263808_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=866ce6127a42c0917cc28277f0f6edae&oe=5B966010

Absolutely nailed the conversion from picture to miniature. I can only hope that the rest of the range is in the same style, though I'm not sure how many I'd want to assemble, she looks like it'd take forever to assemble without losing bits or getting glue smudges on the detail.

[Wraith]

By the looks of things so far, Titanicus reminds me a lot of DUST: Tactics which was a game I very much enjoyed.

Hopefully GW have the good sense to stay far, far away from rehiring Paolo Parente after the Battlefront/Kickstarter debacle. :smallfurious:

[Requizen]

Titanicus looks a bit like Giant Killer Robots which just shipped recently, which I assume is a surprise to nobody.

THIS THING LOOKS ABSOLUTELY INSANE AND I WANT ITTTT

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/WHfestLiveBlog-FW-Necron1et.jpg

[Adrastos42]

Titanicus looks dangerous for my wallet. Very, very dangerous.

That big necron robot looks like a perfect counts-as for all the people who made necron knights, though.

[LeSwordfish]

A thing, maybe.


Astra Militarum Guide
A sol-, a sol-, a soldier I will be
Two pis-, two pis-, two pistols on my knee
Each hit, each hit, each hit will find its mark
As we fight for the old count-, fight for the old count-,
Fight for the old country!
- Marching song of the Cadian 8th

Special Abilities, Relics, Pyskery, and Warlord Traits
Voice Of Command: Arguably one of the best abilities in the game. Instead of providing a fixed buff to every unit nearby, you can pick any <Regiment Infantry> unit and just choose a bonus for it. It's very flexible, and comes on cheap units - there’s almost no reason not to take lots and lots of models with this rule. Your standards should be Take Aim or Bring It Down and Get Back In The Fight, though all are situationally useful. I’d suggest that Falling Back and shooting is very likely to be more effective than Fixing Bayonets and making an extra attack, but hey, maybe you want to stay in and pin someone down (or they Always Strike First and you think you can finish them off, in which case you can probably be chosen to shoot as well). Regimental Orders will be covered in their own section.

Defenders of Humanity: Your Troops and some <Leman Russ>es are objective secured. You need lots of troops to get the most out of this, though it can be a nice little extra for your opponent to need to either get a Troops over to an objective or kill the Tank Commander sat on it.

A note on Astra Militarum and close combat: Throughout this guide, I'm repeatedly very skeptical of the prospect of the guard in close-quarters combat, and I couldn't think of a better place to lay down some clarification. There are a few units in the book which CAN do it - Crusaders and Bullgryns, both sort of can, and you can always blob up a ton of squads and hope that having a kapillion attacks will do some damage. The trouble is, only the last of those is a <Regiment> unit, which means that all the various <Regiment> buffs - orders, warlord traits, stratagems - do precisely bugger-all.

Psykana Discipline:

Rarely useful: so many things will be circumventing morale. Useful if you have another ability which relies on Leadership, though.
If you’re very lucky, it might be as good as smite.
Excellent: remember it works with Invulnerable saves (2++ Crusaders?).
Also very good: you can’t stack it as effectively as some armies, but can be a useful boost to survivability.
Excellent, especially for only warp charge 4. Trouble is, there’s few units in the book that your opponent can’t just straight-up kill.
Average damage of 1.7 mortal wounds, and your chances of doing better than 2 is only about ⅓. Considering that Smite is easier to cast and can Critical Hit, I would suggest ignoring this. It can snipe enemy characters, though, which is useful but probably not worth taking over the buffs above. Though, maybe you can spam Astropaths doing it?


Warlord Traits

Best in the game. Don’t forget that first bit: it’s a free Command Re-Roll you can use in the same turn. This requires your warlord to be on the board, but listen. Your warlord is either a main battle tank or behind fifty meatshields. They’ll be good for a few turns.
If anything worth this is that close to your warlord, you’ve probably made a tactical error. Only useful if you’re expecting to be Alpha Struck, I think.
If you want to Advance, just use the Move Move Move order. Why is your warlord Advancing?
Re-roll morale. Useful, I guess.
RAW this makes your Tank Commanders explode bigger, which is fun. Other than that, I’m not sure it’s a problem: guard characters are cheap, just take more of them so you're not spread so thin.
Bonus orders are always fun. It's hard to go wrong with them.


Relics

The Emperor’s Benediction: Being able to pick out characters is always fun, but AP-1 D2 probably isn’t going to do much once it gets there. Also, you need to take a Commissar to use it and Commissars aren't great.

Laurels of Command: More orders, always fun. This is also the only way to stack multiple orders on the same unit, which is nice to be able to do sometimes - fall back from combat and fire overcharged plasma, say.

Deathmask of Ollianus: Yup. Boosting your Warlord’s invuln is always good.

Dagger of Tu’Sakh: You don’t have much that can really get a lot out of this, to be honest. Perhaps send in some Crusaders? Or Hellhounds.

Kurov’s Aquila: The gold standard for relics. Stacks really well with warlord trait #1 to keep spending command points over and over again. Note that Tank Commanders are officers and can take these.

Blade of Conquest: Not bad, but there’s so many other good things in this list that I can’t see why you’d use this as your first or even second choice. Also, as usual, why are you going into close combat?

Stratagems
Guard can find it pretty easy to rack up a lot of command points. With Warlord Trait #1 you can be at 20+ command points at 1500ptsish, which means that all these stratagems are better than they might seem because you can be very frivolous with them. Don't forget to spam command point re-rolls.

Vortex Missile (3CP): Honestly, if you’re taking a Deathstrike Missile, you really really don’t want it to whiff.

Fire On My Position (3CP): Are there any of these “nova” stratagems that are anywhere near worthwhile? Any? In the entire game?

Crush Them: Irritatingly, you can only use this if you want to charge and why on earth would you do that? It's good on a super-heavy, though, or if you combine it with Tallarn doctrine to move-advance-shoot-charge at once

Aerial Spotter (2CP): Neither Basilisks nor Wyverns hits terribly hard, but being Catachan and using this can help a lot.

Jury Rigging: When you’re one wound below an important threshold, this is very worthwhile. And hey, you have so many points, why not just use it every turn? Not like you were planning on moving anyway.

Consolidate Squads: If you're using your infantry squads for anything other than taxes, then combining them to get more bang from your orders is good. Make sure you have morale-boosting things around though, or what would be nine casualties and one man running becomes nine casualties and another half-squad one.

Imperial Commander’s Armory (1CP/3CP): You have a few good relics, so if you have a specific plan for them, this is worthwhile.

Officio Prefectus Command Tank (2CP): Pretty useful, actually.

Mobile Command Vehicle: Very good. You want your order-givers protected. This is great to combine with the various relics and traits that let you spam orders.

Preliminary Bombardment: Hahah, nope.

Inspired Tactics: Sure. Remember each unit can only benefit from one order.

Defensive Gunners: Very useful, because you really don’t enjoy being in combat.

Take Cover: Sure, this is nice. Combine with psychic powers and suddenly your guardsmen are taking saves the same as Space Marines.

Grenadiers: Against the right target this is fantastic.

Fight To The Death: Excellent.

Go! Recon!: If you need some sentinels to be somewhere - and I’m not sure why you would? Then sure?

Vengeance For Cadia: Again, if you’re fighting Chaos? It’s fantastic.



Regiments
Cadia

Doctrine: Re-rolling ones is brilliant. This makes Plasma worthwhile. Let’s face it, you were barely going to move anyway.
Order: This is useful, but you know Catachans get it for free? Not that you shouldn't use it, but if you have more than a few Leman Russes, find a way to make them Catachan.
Warlord Trait: Keep stacking orders! “Your order goes onto another unit” is more often more useful than "Your unit gets another order" but hey, use both.
Stratagem: This is very useful because quite often you’ll need something very dead very fast. I usually use it more than once per game.
Relic: Very good. Suggestion: use the Imperial Commander’s Armory to get one of these if you’re fighting Chaos, take the Laurels or Aquila as standard.

Creed: Bonus command points. Bonus orders. If you’re cadian and you have the points, he’s great: he’s handing out four or five orders per turn and can hide in a chimera to do it. If you're not Cadian, consider taking him anyway. The only issue is that he can’t take Warlord Trait #1 (which is more useful over time) or any relics. Someone else can have the relic, though.

Knight Commander Pask: Only ten points more than a tank commander for +1 to hit and an extra order? Unless you want to take a relic or specific warlord trait (and you can't just put them on someone else?), he’s pretty much an auto-include. Take him in an Executioner, don't move much, and laugh all the way to the bank.

Colour Sargeant Kell: If you’re taking Creed, he makes Creed not die from mortal wounds, gives him an extra order, and gives you one of the better warlord traits. Fifty points could kind of get you two Company Commanders though.

Catachans

Doctrine: Terrible for infantry. Great for tanks. I hate to say it, but take Catachan Leman Russes in a spearhead and do something else with your infantry. Fluff is dead. The imperial guuard combines regiments into battlegroups all the time.
Order: I don’t think this is worth including lots of flamers over.
Warlord Trait: Sure, send your Warlord into combat. See how that goes. Although, your Leman Russ commander hitting on 2+rr is kind of funny if you use the stratagem.
Stratagem: Well, at least its only 1CP, so you might as well use it if you're in position? Kind of funny if you get charged by a weak character, I suppose.
Relic: Take the Blade Of Conquest instead. Or better yet don't take either.

Sargeant Harker: Hands out the ever-useful re-rolls of one. Plonk him down between your Leman Russes/Basilisks and hope your opponent forgets about him.

Colonel Straken: Straken and his men are decent in close combat, but only decent. He hits monsters pretty hard (remember he’s <Catachan> for strength 7) but that’s more or less it. Creed and Yarrick both laugh at him.


Valhallans

{I]Doctrine:[/I] Really really good. You get a lot out of boosting morale, and your tanks stay active longer. Trouble is, if your tanks are sitting still, Catachan is better, and if they're moving Tallarn is better.
Order: You can shoot into combat, possibly hitting your own troops. This is actually pretty useful if you have cheap bubble-wrap squads (or even just nice tough things like bullgryns, or allies).
Warlord Trait: Always useful.
Stratagem: Costs reinforcement points and can only be in your own deployment zone. Garbage.
Relic: This hasn’t been errata’ed so RAW still gives the old proper Commissar effect. If you play that as deliberate, not an oversight, you can build around it and make it the best effect in the game.


Vostroyans

Doctrine: Not fantastic, in my opinion. Within a turn or so, you’ll be in range and won’t notice the benefit of this anyway.
Order: Shoot in close combat. I guess if you don’t want to fall back it’s neat, but not a patch on the others.
Warlord Trait: Terrible.
Stratagem: It’s nice to have a stratagem like this to pull out of your back pocket.
Relic: In any other army this would be distinctly duff, but it’s a very significant boost in survivability for your warlord. Trouble is… T4, W5, 2+/5++ is still pretty easy to kill?

Armageddon

Doctrine: Not bad actually, extending rapid fire ranges. Still not as good as Valhalla or Cadia though.
Order: Since you can’t “hit and run” with this, it’s of limited use: the best you can really do is hop in a vehicle after shooting just before an enemy arrives. Trouble is… Chimeras are bad. Funny to have all your bubble-wrap jump in a super-heavy, though.
Warlord Trait: Also trash. Why do so many of these warlord traits expect you to go into close combat?
Stratagem: Re-roll ones after disembarking. This is useful if you’re racing around in chimeras, but only one squad gets it per turn. And it’s only like thirty points to babysit each squad with an order-giver. And chimeras are bad. You can use it with your super-heavies but to be frank you can probably find better ways to build around them.
Relic: Orks take -2 leadership? So what, they’re at leadership 18 now?

Tallarn

Doctrine: It’s very nice on paper but practically I think Imperial Guard prefer to sit still and gunline that race around. Nice for Maelstrom though. And your Vehicles can shoot and move without penalty… like leman russes do already?
Order: Sure. You can kiinda jump-shoot-jump with this, but finding enough cover to actually hide a Leman Russ is hard.
Warlord Trait: Stop trying to make me go into close combat!
Stratagem: This is a fantastic stratagem. If you’re playing Tallarn, I’d consider building your list around this ability.
Relic: Stop trying to make me go into close combat!

Mordian

Doctrine: Hey, this is pretty good. Leadership is a real weakness for you, as is getting charged - it won’t revolutionise how you play but covers a couple of your bases.
Order: The best order, in my opinion. Take Plasma Guns. Use the Laurel Of Command to do this and not die from overcharge.
Warlord Trait: Not bad - especially since it stacks and interacts really well with all the other morale abilities. Not top-tier though.
Stratagem: Not terrible, but you can’t get any +1s to hit so it won’t ever be fantastic. Fun to combine with First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire though.
Relic: This is better than either of the other “make your warlord tougher” relics, since the leading cause of death is sniping with mortal wounds.

Militarum Tempestus

Doctrine: You only get this if your entire detachment is MT. Which isn’t entirely worthwhile, since it’s not super impressive.
Stratagem: Fantastic. Seriously consider deploying your scions to take advantage of this instead of Deep Striking them.
Order: Neat. Helps your S3 weapons support your special shots.
Relic: Great. Keep stacking useful orders. You might want to consider The Laurels Of Command though - it’s less reliable, but you can stack them on the same unit for re-rolls to hit and wound in the same turn.
Warlord Trait: Not like it’s not useful, but why not just take psykers?

[Renegade Paladin]

Make sure you account for the errata. Commissars are back to being good, and the Dagger has been changed to be <Officer> only, so you can't take it on a priest.

[Cheesegear]

Defenders of Humanity: Your Troops and some <Leman Russ>es are objective secured.

Try all Leman Russes are Objective Secured. If you have any non-Objective Secured Leman Russes in your army, you are bad.


A note on Astra Militarum and close combat: Throughout this guide, I'm repeatedly very skeptical of the prospect of the guard in close-quarters combat, and I couldn't think of a better place to lay down some clarification. There are a few units in the book which CAN do it - Crusaders and Ogryns

Ogryns can't Fight for ****. I think you mean Bullgryns.


Crush Them: Irritatingly, you can only use this if you want to charge and why on earth would you do that?

Because Super-Heavies with WS2+, S9, -2, D3 is really good, 'cause they can shoot even when they're in combat, and forces your opponent's Infantry units to Fall Back, 'cause what are they going to do, punch a Super-Heavy with S4, AP-?


Aerial Spotter (2CP): Not really worth it, especially since neither of those tanks hits especially hard.

You don't know about Catachans.


Jury Rigging: When you’re one wound below an important threshold, this is worthwhile.

"Joke's on you, Codex. I'm not moving my Leman Russes anyway."


Officio Prefectus Command Tank (2CP): Pretty useful, actually.

Distinctly incorrect. If it was 1 CP, we'd talk.


Mobile Command Vehicle: Very good. You want your order-givers protected. This is great to combine with the various relics and traits that let you spam orders.

Except it's actually garbage, because Chimeras are bad. If you were to take a horrible unit that doesn't do anything, you can pay 1 CP to actually almost make use out of it.


Doctrine: Re-rolling ones is brilliant. This makes Plasma worthwhile.

On BS4+ models, not really. If you put Plasma on Scions, they have a different thing. What this does, is free up your Oders 'cause you don't have to waste Take Aim! on a Plasma unit because you already have it, stock.


Order: This is useful, but you know Catachans get it for free?

As opposed to Take Aim! being a useful Order? Did you know Cadians get it for free? :smalltongue:


Creed: Bonus command points. Bonus orders. If you’re playing Imperial Guard and you have the points, he’s great

Fixed that for you. The only reason not to take Creed is if you're mixing your Codecies, and thus have a better option for Warlord than Creed.
I can't see any reason for why any Guard player doesn't include a Cadian Detachment for Creed Warlord.
Creed is also extremely useful, as he doesn't count towards the 3-cap on whatever Officers you're bringing.

Unless hobby.


Knight Commander Pask: Only ten points more than a tank commander for +1 to hit and an extra order? Unless you want to take a relic or specific warlord trait (and you can't just put them on someone else?), he’s pretty much an auto-include. Take him in an Executioner, don't move much, and laugh all the way to the bank.

Executioner? Gross.


Colour Sargeant Kell: If you’re taking Creed, he makes Creed not die

...No he doesn't. What makes Creed not die is the 30 Infantry in front of him.


Fifty points could kind of get you two Company Commanders though.

Yes, it does.


Doctrine: Terrible for infantry. Great for tanks. I hate it,

'Cause you hate it, doesn't mean it's bad. :smallwink:


Fluff is dead.

Personally, I blame GW for not making everything exactly identical.


Sargeant Harker: Hands out the ever-useful re-rolls of one. Plonk him down between your Leman Russes and hope your opponent forgets about him.

Once again, Catachans get the Cadian Doctrine for free. Put three units around him, and watch him go to town. His rule doesn't specify 'wholly within', so that means taking 4-8 Basilisks, and putting him in the middle. As long his Aura can 'tap' the side of a Vehicle, it's good to go.


Doctrine: Really really good. You get a lot out of boosting morale, and your tanks stay active longer. Almost as good as Catachan for tanks.

Not really.


Valhallans
Order: You can shoot into combat, possibly hitting your own troops. This is actually pretty useful if you have cheap bubble-wrap squads

Except Conscripts are dead. So Valhallans died in the previous round Errata.


Vostroyan
Stratagem: It’s nice to have a stratagem like this to pull out of your back pocket.

Soooup.


Armageddon
Stratagem: Re-roll ones after disembarking. This is useful if you’re racing around in chimeras, but only one squad gets it per turn. And it’s only like thirty points to babysit each squad with an order-giver. And chimeras are bad.

So, you haven't heard of Stormlords or Doomhammers?
(Not Banehammers though, they're bad)


Tallarn
Doctrine: It’s very nice on paper but practically I think Imperial Guard prefer to sit still and gunline that race around.

Unless you're playing solo-Guard in Maelstrom, in which case it's very good.
(You still bring a Cadian Detachment, just for Creed, though)


And your Vehicles can shoot and move without penalty… like leman russes do already?

You mean like how Crush Them lets a Vehicle Advance and Charge? And how Stormlords are actually ridiculously strong in the right army? Like, one that's Tallarn?


Stratagem: This is a fantastic stratagem. If you’re playing Tallarn, I’d consider building your list around this ability.

Welcome to post-Errata, where it's terrible.


Militarum Tempestus
Doctrine: You only get this if your entire detachment is MT. Which isn’t entirely worthwhile, since it’s not super impressive.

Well, not anymore. :smallfrown:
They used to be the best Regiment in the book.


Stratagem: Fantastic. Seriously consider deploying your scions to take advantage of this instead of Deep Striking them.

Who SUAs Scions after the Errata? :smallconfused:

[Turalisj]

Trying to figure out how to build my Deathwatch veterans... and going to just end up magnetizing everyone. Storm shields, storm bolters, frag cannon, and xenophase sword seems good... Everything else kinda meh? Shotguns don't seem to have the range and don't have SIA, power mauls don't matter much unless you're fighting T3, and the HTH can only be taken on regular veterans or vanguard veterans which is kinda bad.

[Cheesegear]

Trying to figure out how to build my Deathwatch veterans... and going to just end up magnetizing everyone.

As I said earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23064509&postcount=233), in order of preference, you want to go
Storm Bolters, then Boltguns/Heavy Bolters, and a long way after... Plasma Guns for dealing with Vehicles.

Ignore Frag Cannons. They come from 7th Ed. You're way better off with a Grey Knights' Spearhead bringing Psycannons. Incindentally, every time you build a GK with a Heavy weapon, you get a handy wrist-mounted Storm Bolter arm, which looks cool, which lets you use a right-handed Chainsword, which are much more common than left ones. Speaking of...

As far as Melee is concerned, every single one of your dudes should have Chainswords. Literally all of them. You should be able to swing that those Deathwatch Power Swords are just Combat Blades, which are exactly the same thing. But, if you cant, the Space Wolves' kit comes with a bunch of left-handed Chainswords - you'll have to do some cutting or green stuffing, if you don't want all of your Chainswords to look like they fell off the Furry Express.

However, fact is, with 2 Attacks each, and Black Shields and Sergeants having three, it really doesn't matter what you equip your squad with, because all options - even Chainswords - are useful. The best option, in the end, is whatever is cheapest. Chainswords Power Swords or Power Mauls will get the job done.

If you're going up against anything T5 or better, then your only choices are Power Fists, Thunder Hammers and Heavy Thunder Hammers.
Unfortunately, at 12/16/30 Points each, respectively, they actually come up even on Damage-per-point. So it doesn't matter what you take, really.

Ultimately, the best option for any Marine, is Storm Bolter and Chainsword. Deathwatch just makes it...More so.

[Renegade Paladin]

Try all Leman Russes are Objective Secured. If you have any non-Objective Secured Leman Russes in your army, you are bad.
Or running a Brigade in 1500 and need them for the HS slots. :smalltongue:


The only reason not to take Creed is if you're mixing your Codecies, and thus have a better option for Warlord than Creed.
I can't see any reason for why any Guard player doesn't include a Cadian Detachment for Creed Warlord.
Creed is also extremely useful, as he doesn't count towards the 3-cap on whatever Officers you're bringing.
Anyone who realizes that you get more orders out of his points weight in company commanders and can take Grand Strategist on one of them.


Who SUAs Scions after the Errata? :smallconfused:

Anyone facing Orks. :smallwink: They'll run forwards leaving a bunch of unguarded characters and objectives in their DZ, every time.

[Cheesegear]

Or running a Brigade in 1500 and need them for the HS slots. :smalltongue:

Use Mortars/Heavy Bolters. :smallwink:


Anyone who realizes that you get more orders out of his points weight in company commanders and can take Grand Strategist on one of them.

Kind of. Things are very different with the new 3-cap.
Like, if you're already taking two Company Commanders (because obviously), you can't have another two, even if you do have the points for it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Use Mortars/Heavy Bolters. :smallwink:

Well yeah, but then I have no Russes, because the points aren't there for a Spearhead.

[Professor Gnoll]

As I said earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23064509&postcount=233), in order of preference, you want to go
Storm Bolters, then Boltguns/Heavy Bolters, and a long way after... Plasma Guns for dealing with Vehicles.

Ignore Frag Cannons. They come from 7th Ed. You're way better off with a Grey Knights' Spearhead bringing Psycannons. Incindentally, every time you build a GK with a Heavy weapon, you get a handy wrist-mounted Storm Bolter arm, which looks cool, which lets you use a right-handed Chainsword, which are much more common than left ones. Speaking of...

As far as Melee is concerned, every single one of your dudes should have Chainswords. Literally all of them. You should be able to swing that those Deathwatch Power Swords are just Combat Blades, which are exactly the same thing.
Deathwatch veteran kits come with a ton of sheathed Combat Blades, though. You can just build them with those if you want Combat Blades.

[Cheesegear]

Deathwatch veteran kits come with a ton of sheathed Combat Blades, though. You can just build them with those if you want Combat Blades.

Except that they're not 'Combat Blades', they're Chainswords. You have to convince your opponent that your model has something, that it very clearly doesn't have. It's like saying that any sheathed pistol is potentially a Plasma Pistol. It could be true... But it's definitely not true. If it's molded onto the model, surely it should be a standard part of their equipment. They can't not be built without that knife, so why don't they have it in their equipment?

The other important thing, is that the Deathwatch kit comes with all one-handed Boltguns (which you put on Death Company). You can't not have something in the other hand. The obvious choice is to use those things that look an awful lot like Power Swords.

[LansXero]

Except that they're not 'Combat Blades', they're Chainswords. You have to convince your opponent that your model has something, that it very clearly doesn't have. It's like saying that any sheathed pistol is potentially a Plasma Pistol. It could be true... But it's definitely not true. If it's molded onto the model, surely it should be a standard part of their equipment. They can't not be built without that knife, so why don't they have it in their equipment?

The other important thing, is that the Deathwatch kit comes with all one-handed Boltguns (which you put on Death Company). You can't not have something in the other hand. The obvious choice is to use those things that look an awful lot like Power Swords.

It must be the new showing for me, but I cant understand how much of an issue this is. For hobby perhaps, sure, but on table you get your oponents list, right? or is 'those guys have swords' so much to remember that you need to constantly clearly see it modeled on them? Isnt that what datasheets are for?

[Drasius]

Isnt that's what datasheets are WYSIWYG is for?.

Fixed that for you.