OOTS #1119 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ridureyu]

Even when things begin to go Durkula's way, the party is just better-prepared. And airing out hearts.

[Iago]

Air it out for you FTW!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Belkar got another turn surprisingly quickly. I'm going to chalk that to rule of funny, I think.

Edit: Err... maybe not. We are back at the top of the initiative. V might have had a poor roll, but everyone else delayed until after V's turn, and now Belkar is back at the top, just after Elan.

GW

[SaintRidley]

Loki's fire burns so bright.

That might have been an Attack of Opportunity from Belkar rather than a proper turn, too.

[Celestia]

That is one awesome looking flame strike. I love the new art.

[Erathia]

Poor cannon-fodder vampires in the middle, their undead HP just keeps yo-yoing.

[Shining Wrath]

Blackwing's accessorization FTW.

If Elan had beaten DurkonT to the punch, he might have taken out all of the spawn. As it is, they more or less offset each other.
Minrah has entered the fray, but I don't think she's dealing enough damage to take out the foes.
Hilgya, OTOH - that looks pretty intense. Standard flame strike is 10' radius, 15d6 damage max. Empowered increase damage by 50%, so figure somewhere around 78 hit points (dex save for half). It certainly looks like DurkonT is taking full damage - he's going over backward. Braidella is also leaving her feet, and the guy in the back is dead - I think that's chair carrier, so perhaps the lowest level full vampire.

[Reboot]

H: Pyromaniac? :lol:


Hilgya, OTOH - that looks pretty intense. Standard flame strike is 10' radius, 15d6 damage max. Empowered increase damage by 50%, so figure somewhere around 78 hit points (dex save for half). It certainly looks like DurkonT is taking full damage - he's going over backward. Braidella is also leaving her feet, and the guy in the back is dead - I think that's chair carrier, so perhaps the lowest level full vampire.

How much does Resist Fire cancel out though?

[Shining Wrath]

Also, I like Hilgya's eyes going orange when she burns them all. Haley is firing an arrow in that same frame, so perhaps initiative order is being treated casually at the moment.

[GudBelkarIsGud]

Man, the raven gets all the best lines!

So, did Hilgya's flame burn so hot that it scorched the Order of the Stick as well, or is that just a shadow effect on Haley?

Either way, I'm loving how the Order is either better prepared than Greg, or able to effectively respond to his plans and attacks. I can get used to this competence. Keep it up!

[Zyzzyva]

Hilgya/Durkon/Codurkon meeting & reactions: delayed another page. sigh. :smallfrown:

Still, nice to see the good guys on top of things. And Elan's approach to fighting vampires is exactly what one might have expected from him. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

If HPoH doesn’t already realize that the OOTS has another cleric, he’ll probably start to figure it out now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, I like Hilgya's eyes going orange when she burns them all. Haley is firing an arrow in that same frame, so perhaps initiative order is being treated casually at the moment.

Initiative order is always treated a bit more simultaneous than it would strictly be, but in general you can trust the Giant to not have a character taking more turns than the rest. I just had not quite realised that this is round 2 of combat, because I was expecting V to act as a marker of it - but then remembered they need not, not if everyone else delayed until V acted in round 1.

GW

[Celestia]

Also, I like Hilgya's eyes going orange when she burns them all. Haley is firing an arrow in that same frame, so perhaps initiative order is being treated casually at the moment.
Considering Rich's past statements about the game rules, I'm assuming that initiative is now handled as a rough guideline. I approve, myself. Initiative is great for a game, but it limits storytelling options far more than most rules.

[hamishspence]

I love Blackwing's snarkery.

[The MunchKING]

Noone else is going to say it?

"I've gotta wear shades!"

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think there's much left in between Roy and DurkonT besides Ponchella and Braidella. Roy does not appear in this strip, and there aren't too many places he could be. Normally 3 vampire clerics against one fighter is not a fair fight - but the clerics just took massive HP damage, and the fighter has a possible-artifact level sword.

Belkar is clearly wounded by Mass Inflict, but appears unharmed after Mass Cure, so perhaps he made his Will save against the former - which is, to say the least, unusual for Belkar.

DurkonT's order to attack the bard just before a high level cleric walks into the room and opens a large can of whoop-ass on his vampires is another sign that he's not as on-top of things as he'd like. He keeps reacting to the Order, not getting in front of what they are doing.

Prediction: V has at least one spell prepared allowing for a fleeing DurkonT to be stopped.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That Flame Strike was very satisfying to watch, and I’m sure Hilgya felt that way as well. Also, Elan and Blackwing continue to make these strips perfect.

[Peelee]

Gotta have shades to throw shade, I guess.

[Lord Torath]

New comic is up.Love it! Thanks, Giant!

[AutomatedTeller]

That was brilliant!!

I love how Durkon did the mass cause wounds and then Elan countered it.

"can't handle having my heart warmed" is now a favorite line of mine ;)

Blackwing with the shades taken,presumably, from the same place that haley gets her arrows. And Haley, simple "Fair"

Another excellent comic, Rich!!

[Sylian]

Empowered Flame Strike takes up a level 7 spot (5 normally, +2 because it's Empowered), meaning that Hilgya is, at the very least, level 13. So far it has really been going the Order's way. I'm kind of expecting Greg to pull out some secret trick soon.

[Psyren]

Team Durkula are getting their beards handed to them (singed.)

[TRH]

How much does Resist Fire cancel out though?

Cancels 30 points max. Of course, half of a Flame Strike's damage is divine, and none of that can be resisted. Greg's really going to have to step it up if he wants to win here, since his "hurt someone at the same time" maneuver only got three enemies, one of whom can barely damage his forces anyways.

[2D8HP]

"So...positive"

"Can't handle...
...having
...my heart warmed!!!

Feeling your pain vamps

Feeling your pain.

[Shining Wrath]

Correction to my earlier post: Elan is casting Mass Cure Light (d8 + caster level) while DurkonT is casting Mass Inflict Serious (3d8 + caster level), so the vampire's spell did 9 more points of negative energy than Elan's did of positive energy, plus 1 per caster level (I don't think we know if Dashing Swordsman adds to Elan's caster level).

Therefore, unless Belkar's unwounded state is an art error, Belkar must have made his Will save against Inflict Serious. Is Death's Little Helper developing ... wisdom?

[Shining Wrath]

BTW, if we assume Hilgya has the Fire Domain, she's got Fire Storm and Incendiary Cloud left as domain spells. First does Level * D6; second does 4d6 fire damage per round and persists. The protection from fire soaks a lot of those.

[happycrow]

I study arcane sciences
I've the best classes!
I've got a crazy raven who wears dark glasses,
Vamps are burning great...

[Haldir]

The big question here is where is Roy. I think this whole thing is gonna hinge on Roy/Hilga v. Durkula.

[2.5 cats]

Belkar bought a Vest of Resistance +3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) in Tinkertown, which helps his saving throws (including Will) a bit relative to how he did in previous books.

As to Roy / V, one or the other may well have gone this turn and killed Spawn #6 (the second male with a grey cap) "off camera."

Fun comic. :smallsmile: Really hoping that Hilgya gave Kudzu a Death Ward, though, or the next Mass Inflict spell will be really horrible.

[Stabbey]

Great comic. I'd prepare popcorn, but I only like it slightly burned, not completely carbonized.

[Breccia]

Well, I guess she got to start a fire indoors after all!

Also, all those people saying "Elan mass cure!" were 100% right. Nice call!

[Breccia]

I'm kind of expecting Greg to pull out some secret trick soon.

Fair enough, but...what? Greg doesn't exactly excel in the creativity or originality department. He went through a lot of effort to put up traps and an ambush (which were destroyed) based on the OotS's standard actions, and seemed genuinely concerned about a high-level cleric showing up. He's got some juice left, no question, but I don't know what "surprise" he might be intentionally holding back.

[HandofShadows]

I study arcane sciences
I've the best classes!
I've got a crazy raven who wears dark glasses,
Vamps are burning great...

Dag nabit, where is that Upvote button! :smallcool:

[Shining Wrath]

Belkar bought a Vest of Resistance +3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) in Tinkertown, which helps his saving throws (including Will) a bit relative to how he did in previous books.

As to Roy, he may well have gone this turn and killed Spawn #6 "off camera."

Fun comic. :smallsmile: Really hoping that Hilgya gave Kudzu a Death Ward, though, or the next Mass Inflict spell will be really horrible.

Thanks for the reminder. It appears that it just saved him some lost HP. I suppose that makes it a good investment.

My head canon for damage dealt by the Flame Strike:
DurkonT took full damage (about 80) less 30 for Resistance, so he's down about 50 HP out of about 100 (15 D12 hit dice, no longer has a Constitution score as undead).
Ponchella made her save (not being knocked off her feet) so 40 less 30 makes about 10 points of damage out of slightly fewer HP than DurkonT; unless someone targets her immediately, she'll just regenerate.
Braidella took full damage less Resistance (50, like DurkonT), probably had significantly fewer HP as she seems to be lower level; she's not X-eyed, but she'd better hope no one hits her hard next round.
Curls appears to be in the same situation as Ponchella, but my head canon is that she's also lower level than Ponchella. Still, one round of regeneration and she's good.
Vampire cleric behind Curls is unharmed but seriously frightened.
Spawn (no unholy symbol) in the back is dead.

Basically, one spawn dead, one vampire on the verge of death, and DurkonT at a point where he'll need to consider avoiding taking further damage - that is, thrown off his game still more.

[Kish]

Initiative order is always treated a bit more simultaneous than it would strictly be, but in general you can trust the Giant to not have a character taking more turns than the rest. I just had not quite realised that this is round 2 of combat, because I was expecting V to act as a marker of it - but then remembered they need not, not if everyone else delayed until V acted in round 1.

GW
Not actually the case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm). If they delayed until after Vaarsuvius acted then their initiatives, for the rest of the combat, are set to "just after Vaarsuvius."

That said, Vaarsuvius might be delaying now as they float there, if Rich currently cares about initiative order.

[Celestia]

Fair enough, but...what? Greg doesn't exactly excel in the creativity or originality department. He went through a lot of effort to put up traps and an ambush (which were destroyed) based on the OotS's standard actions, and seemed genuinely concerned about a high-level cleric showing up. He's got some juice left, no question, but I don't know what "surprise" he might be intentionally holding back.
I'm sure this story isn't quite done yet, but I don't think any possible "surprise" is going to involve a combat victory. This is the last major conflict before the final battle with Xykon. It is better to build the Order up as competent combat threats rather than rely on the standby trope of them barely succeeding by the skin of their teeth. That way, when they do fight Xykon, we know that they're powerful, and when Xykon bask them into a corner, it will make him seem even more powerful. Any surprise Durkon pulls out at this point is going to involve guile and trickery.

[JBiddles]

I'm looking forward to V's next turn. There's a lot she can do here for the Order. Hasting everyone would be fun. I wonder if she ever picked up Sunburst? She has Bigsby's Clenched Fist, Mind Blank and Dimensional Lock for 8ths, and we know she got Mind Blank in Tinkertown, so it's possible Sunburst was one of her choices for level 15/16. She's burned her normal 8th-level slots, but she'd have one more for Evocation, and that would be the obvious choice against vampires.

[AutomatedTeller]

It's not really all that surprising to me that the Order isn't having a lot of problems here. I mean, Roy by himself was pretty close to a match for Durkula and it wasn't until about half-way through that he took the fight completely seriously. With the buffing from V and Hilgya, this SHOULD be a bit of a cake-walk for the order, shouldn't it? What I'm wondering is how Rich is going to provide tension - gate in a couple of devils, maybe?

[Morquard]

Can't wait to see both Durkons' reactions to Hilgya now! :)

[sirgarberto]

I'm reminded of the Burn Everything feat from 4e. I usually allow it in 3.5 games because, frankly, everyone and their grandmas resist fire and that's just no fun if you like to burn stuff.

[D.One]

Greg: "... forget the elf..."

Now I really want V to make him regret that...

[Jay R]

Love the combination of gentle mommy voice and frying one's enemies.

[Reddish Mage]

Correction to my earlier post: Elan is casting Mass Cure Light (d8 + caster level) while DurkonT is casting Mass Inflict Serious (3d8 + caster level), so the vampire's spell did 9 more points of negative energy than Elan's did of positive energy, plus 1 per caster level (I don't think we know if Dashing Swordsman adds to Elan's caster level).

Therefore, unless Belkar's unwounded state is an art error, Belkar must have made his Will save against Inflict Serious. Is Death's Little Helper developing ... wisdom?

Looks to me based on the vampire reactions (or lack thereof) Elan rolled an 8 while Durkon rolled 3 1's. As far as Belkar being unwounded, he must be out of range, save only halves the damage.


Initiative order is always treated a bit more simultaneous than it would strictly be, but in general you can trust the Giant to not have a character taking more turns than the rest.

That's actually very interesting as a writing decision and not just as rulebook adherence. This would mean that Roy and V are posed to act in the next.


DurkonT's order to attack the bard just before a high level cleric walks into the room and opens a large can of whoop-ass on his vampires is another sign that he's not as on-top of things as he'd like. He keeps reacting to the Order, not getting in front of what they are doing.

Prediction: V has at least one spell prepared allowing for a fleeing DurkonT to be stopped.

This shows the Order's growth as well as Durkon's* over-dependence on Durkon's memories. I agree there is a suggestion that Durkon* is about to go down, as the story and Durkon's orders seems crafted to all be ill-timed, completely believable, and answer criticism that Durkon* should be healed or have focused attacks on the more dangerous party members.

The surprise trap may be a villain tradition, but this is not an anime, Durkon* will not suddenly overwhelm everyone but may get off a few spells. Durkon* is being legitimately tactically outmanuevered and is digging his own grave (no pun intended) because he never thought Roy would actually execute a plan.

Whether or not he tries to flee, I imagine Durkon* getting caught or killed by Hilgya, the other x-factor (xx-factor?) he didn't account for.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm sure this story isn't quite done yet, but I don't think any possible "surprise" is going to involve a combat victory. This is the last major conflict before the final battle with Xykon. It is better to build the Order up as competent combat threats rather than rely on the standby trope of them barely succeeding by the skin of their teeth. That way, when they do fight Xykon, we know that they're powerful, and when Xykon bask them into a corner, it will make him seem even more powerful. Any surprise Durkon pulls out at this point is going to involve guile and trickery.

The Order being powerful, and Xykon being even more powerful, are things that have already been very much established. Neither is in particularly dire need of reaffirmation.

Also, to my mind, saying that Greg will pull out a surprise is not the same thing as saying he'll win. It's just an acknowledgment that things are unlikely to not go without complications forever.

[Jay R]

Also, I like Hilgya's eyes going orange when she burns them all. Haley is firing an arrow in that same frame, so perhaps initiative order is being treated casually at the moment.

It's being treated by the Roger Rabbit rule.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/b344dba0ae1b5b2fcaa7f0b9a9e90da3/tumblr_miuledAA1X1qb05aco4_250.gif

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not actually the case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm). If they delayed until after Vaarsuvius acted then their initiatives, for the rest of the combat, are set to "just after Vaarsuvius."

That said, Vaarsuvius might be delaying now as they float there, if Rich currently cares about initiative order.

You are, of course, absolutely right, and my only excuse is that I have the latest Mechwarrior in my head right now, so I suspect I was thinking their initiative system, rather than the 3.5 system I haven't actually used in more than a decade.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

Can't wait to see both Durkons' reactions to Hilgya now! :)

I am expecting to have my heart broken. Not quite at the level of this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html), but there will be feels.


Greg: "... forget the elf..."

Now I really want V to make him regret that...

It means V is up against the other full casters, while the few surviving mooks try to kill Elan - which meant that they aren't going to try for Hilgya. Now the 5 or so vampire-clerics need to deal with V and Hilgya, and I believe DurkonT has got to be low on spells. And Roy is charging and nothing any of those vampires can cast is going to stop him - except, maybe, another Anti-Life Shell. Of course, that's a 6th level spell that doesn't even slow spells down, or Haley's arrows. DurkonT could try to gather all his vampires together inside it - just in time for the Order's casters to bring the big AoE spells down on them.


Love the combination of gentle mommy voice and frying one's enemies.

It's quite the contrast - mother love and Loki's fire.

[Neltharak]

I'm not gonna lie, the comic was getting too dark and serious.

Then the giant kicks it out of the park and we're right back in business :D

Also, you're sure you want to ignore the wizard, greg ? No grappling V or anything ? Okay, i'm sure you definitely won't regret that next round !

[Reboot]

I'm sure this story isn't quite done yet, but I don't think any possible "surprise" is going to involve a combat victory. This is the last major conflict before the final battle with Xykon. It is better to build the Order up as competent combat threats rather than rely on the standby trope of them barely succeeding by the skin of their teeth. That way, when they do fight Xykon, we know that they're powerful, and when Xykon bask them into a corner, it will make him seem even more powerful. Any surprise Durkon pulls out at this point is going to involve guile and trickery.

Pretty sure this is the equivalent to the Holy Word fight in the pyramid last book, in that the Order are going to fairly cleanly win the fight but not the "war" - at least Durkula, and possibly Ponchella & one or two others, are going to escape. The ExExcharch isn't going to be the villain in the rest of the book by himself, and we've yet to see Durkon's mum or family in the present day - too much setup there to go to "waste".

Hence why I was speculating that we may see Durkon use Word of Recall to head to Durkon's old bedroom or somesuch while bugging out.

[Sniccups]

Probably the coolest Elan has ever looked. He's never gotten an actual awesome moment without any separate comedy, and now he's actually being serious.

[Shining Wrath]

Looks to me based on the vampire reactions (or lack thereof) Elan rolled an 8 while Durkon rolled 3 1's. As far as Belkar being unwounded, he must be out of range, save only halves the damage.



That's actually very interesting as a writing decision and not just as rulebook adherence. This would mean that Roy and V are posed to act in the next.



This shows the Order's growth as well as Durkon's* over-dependence on Durkon's memories. I agree there is a suggestion that Durkon* is about to go down, as the story and Durkon's orders seems crafted to all be ill-timed, completely believable, and answer criticism that Durkon* should be healed or have focused attacks on the more dangerous party members.

The surprise trap may be a villain tradition, but this is not an anime, Durkon* will not suddenly overwhelm everyone but may get off a few spells. Durkon* is being legitimately tactically outmanuevered and is digging his own grave (no pun intended) because he never thought Roy would actually execute a plan.

Whether or not he tries to flee, I imagine Durkon* getting caught or killed by Hilgya, the other x-factor (xx-factor?) he didn't account for.

In panel #2 you can see Belkar's head with wounds on it, and the black aura surrounding him. I'm pretty sure he saved, or that the dice were kind to the Order.


It's being treated by the Roger Rabbit rule.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/b344dba0ae1b5b2fcaa7f0b9a9e90da3/tumblr_miuledAA1X1qb05aco4_250.gif

I wonder if the Snarl is a form of Dip or vice-versa?

Apropos nothing, I still put forth Bugs Bunny as the most powerful super hero from any universe. Put him up against Superman, and he pulls kryptonite out of his fur and hands it to him - but, of course, only when it's funny. Put him up against the Hulk, he dresses in drag as a she-Hulkess (not the She-Hulk, another one) and charms him into not being angry. Fear the Eared One.

[Sprütche]

The table and the chair must have an insane protection from fire if the vampires take so much damage from the flame strike. The furniture shows no damage at all!

[Nymrod]

With all the dangerous vampires in one spot I am waiting for V to drop a Greater Dispel on them. I wonder if they'd try to Disintegrate Durkon's body, that probably would work well but then raising him becomes a bit messy.

[Shining Wrath]

With all the dangerous vampires in one spot I am waiting for V to drop a Greater Dispel on them. I wonder if they'd try to Disintegrate Durkon's body, that probably would work well but then raising him becomes a bit messy.

I half-expect that to happen - Hilgya hates Durkon with a fiery passion, she is a Fire cleric, DurkonT is going to go down and she's going to incinerate the body. Since we already know he's vulnerable due to not having a sarcophagus (unless he had one built?), I don't know if he'd get the 2 hours of gaseous form before he died.

[gooddragon1]

"Since when were you under the impression I wasn't using kyoka suigetsu didn't have sunglasses?"

[Nymrod]

I half-expect that to happen - Hilgya hates Durkon with a fiery passion, she is a Fire cleric, DurkonT is going to go down and she's going to incinerate the body. Since we already know he's vulnerable due to not having a sarcophagus (unless he had one built?), I don't know if he'd get the 2 hours of gaseous form before he died.

I mean unless Hilgya also dumped Knowledge: Religion, she knows this is not the real Durkon. She has to kill the vampire, rez it, then kill Durkon:smalltongue:

[georgie_leech]

I mean unless Hilgya also dumped Knowledge: Religion, she knows this is not the real Durkon. She has to kill the vampire, rez it, then kill Durkon:smalltongue:

...Actually, that sounds pretty plausible. And she knows (broadly) how the honourable death thing works. "Murdered in cold blood blood by a vengeful spurned lover" doesn't strike me as terribly honourable.

Which now makes me wonder if Hel can do something to prevent the resurrection of souls in her domain. A raid on literal hell could be an interesting last act for the book.

[Reddish Mage]

I mean unless Hilgya also dumped Knowledge: Religion, she knows this is not the real Durkon. She has to kill the vampire, rez it, then kill Durkon:smalltongue:

Writing in the forums (and so not canon) I recall Rich saying way back that it incredibly obscure knowledge in the stickverse that vampires are negative energy spirits that control their hosts. Hilgya might have to max Knowledge: Religion to know this. We see from the godsmoot that Durkon* didn't expect too many clerics to know about him except for very high level ones.

Even if Hilgya knows it, she knows Durkon's in there, and so maybe she figures if she kills Durkon* he'll still feel it. The real question is whether she'll feel like rezzing him when its all over.

[Crœsos]

I'm sure this story isn't quite done yet, but I don't think any possible "surprise" is going to involve a combat victory. This is the last major conflict before the final battle with Xykon. It is better to build the Order up as competent combat threats rather than rely on the standby trope of them barely succeeding by the skin of their teeth. That way, when they do fight Xykon, we know that they're powerful, and when Xykon bask them into a corner, it will make him seem even more powerful. Any surprise Durkon pulls out at this point is going to involve guile and trickery.

Durkula doesn't have to pull a surprise to win this battle. This battle is useful for eliminating the Order of the Stick as potential spoilers, but his true goal involves fixing a vote by the Council of Elders. He's already dispatched the Ex-Exarch to take care of that (comic #1111), armed with a rulebook to procedurally rules-lawyer his own safety in the Council, doubtless in a similar to the way Durkula rules-lawyered his own safety at Godsmoot. Hel wins if the Order are dead, delayed long enough, or think they've won so they don't bother to check on the Council.

[Lord of Sporks]

My head canon for damage dealt by the Flame Strike:
DurkonT took full damage (about 80) less 30 for Resistance, so he's down about 50 HP out of about 100 (15 D12 hit dice, no longer has a Constitution score as undead).
Ponchella made her save (not being knocked off her feet) so 40 less 30 makes about 10 points of damage out of slightly fewer HP than DurkonT; unless someone targets her immediately, she'll just regenerate.


Reminder: half of Flame Strike's damage is divine, and not affected by Fire Resistance. So if Ponchella did make her save, she would have taken 20 damage out of 40, not 10.

[Crœsos]

Writing in the forums (and so not canon) I recall Rich saying way back that it incredibly obscure knowledge in the stickverse that vampires are negative energy spirits that control their hosts. Hilgya might have to max Knowledge: Religion to know this. We see from the godsmoot that Durkon* didn't expect too many clerics to know about him except for very high level ones.

Even if Hilgya knows it, she knows Durkon's in there, and so maybe she figures if she kills Durkon* he'll still feel it. The real question is whether she'll feel like rezzing him when its all over.

Obscure, but not unknowable. At least one out of four low-to-mid-level gnomish clerics (comic #968) seem to know this fact. Of course the skill set for gnomish temple cleric and dwarven adventurer cleric may be quite different.

[Jay R]

Even if Hilgya knows it, she knows Durkon's in there, and so maybe she figures if she kills Durkon* he'll still feel it. The real question is whether she'll feel like rezzing him when its all over.

It's not enough to feel like it. She has to feel like it 5,000 gp in diamonds worth.

[Wanderer]

FIRE FROM HEAVEN! :smallcool:

In other news, V should step in with a Cacophonic Burst or something, just to return the sonic damage favor.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Rich has the right emoticon for this thread. :smallcool:


Not actually the case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm). If they delayed until after Vaarsuvius acted then their initiatives, for the rest of the combat, are set to "just after Vaarsuvius."

I think GWc was thinking of a Held Action, which only applies to that round.


I'm looking forward to V's next turn. There's a lot she can do here for the Order. Hasting everyone would be fun. I wonder if she ever picked up Sunburst? She has Bigsby's Clenched Fist, Mind Blank and Dimensional Lock for 8ths, and we know she got Mind Blank in Tinkertown, so it's possible Sunburst was one of her choices for level 15/16. She's burned her normal 8th-level slots, but she'd have one more for Evocation, and that would be the obvious choice against vampires.

V already cast her Mind Blanks on herself and Roy, so the 8th she lost when level drained would've been the Evocation by default. And lost spells don't come back with Restoration.

[Shining Wrath]

I mean unless Hilgya also dumped Knowledge: Religion, she knows this is not the real Durkon. She has to kill the vampire, rez it, then kill Durkon:smalltongue:

She seems unclear on whether or not DurkonT is actually Durkon. For example, #1108 and #1109 where she thinks Durkon recently boinked Minrah and Haley, respectively.


Writing in the forums (and so not canon) I recall Rich saying way back that it incredibly obscure knowledge in the stickverse that vampires are negative energy spirits that control their hosts. Hilgya might have to max Knowledge: Religion to know this. We see from the godsmoot that Durkon* didn't expect too many clerics to know about him except for very high level ones.

Even if Hilgya knows it, she knows Durkon's in there, and so maybe she figures if she kills Durkon* he'll still feel it. The real question is whether she'll feel like rezzing him when its all over.

It's possible she'll think she's killed Durkon by killing his body (especially if she does so painfully), and then be willing to resurrect him as she's had her revenge. It might seem weird, but she's CHAOTIC, and random stuff like purple giraffes are her forte.

[Kish]

I think GWc was thinking of a Held Action, which only applies to that round.
There's no such thing as a "held action" in the SRD, as far as I can tell.

If you mean a readied action, just down the page from what I linked...

Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
If not, can you link to the kind of action you mean? 'Cause it appears to me that if you act later than the initiative you rolled for any reason, that's your initiative from then on.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Writing in the forums (and so not canon) I recall Rich saying way back that it incredibly obscure knowledge in the stickverse that vampires are negative energy spirits that control their hosts. Hilgya might have to max Knowledge: Religion to know this. We see from the godsmoot that Durkon* didn't expect too many clerics to know about him except for very high level ones.

The exact quote you’re looking for is this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384629-OOTS-968-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18433102#post18433102), although I’d argue forum statements can be part of the canon.

[Kish]

The exact quote you’re looking for is this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384629-OOTS-968-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18433102#post18433102), although I’d argue forum statements can be part of the canon.
Got a Catch-22 there. One of Rich's forum statements is that things he says on the forum aren't canon.

(It was when someone pointed out that when the Unholy Blight strip had gone up, he'd said "You can see from this that all the Order members except Belkar are Good"--something he didn't want to be bound to for the obvious red-robed verbose elf reason.)

[warmachine]

For someone who didn't know the basic physics of healing, undead and positive/negative energy until a few seconds ago, Elan worked out a practical application very quickly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Dammit, I never noticed they rewrote that when they did the revision. Actually, now it looks like there is no real difference between a Delay and a Ready.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Got a Catch-22 there. One of Rich's forum statements is that things he says on the forum aren't canon.

(It was when someone pointed out that when the Unholy Blight strip had gone up, he'd said "You can see from this that all the Order members except Belkar are Good"--something he didn't want to be bound to for the obvious red-robed verbose elf reason.)

This is somewhat awkward, so I’ll recover by saying “can” is doing a lot of work in my statement. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I tend to view most canons as having different tiers, with the published work being the highest, and forum statements more towards the bottom. So, they can all be canon, just some are less accurate than others.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, it's simpler. When Rich wants something said in the forums to be canon, he declares it so. For instance, Hinjo's color blindness.

[Anarion]

The color palette on that flamestrike is really cool. Conveys the washed out super bright flame effect really well. Also :smallcool:

[Sutremaine]

I like to think that V was just about Good early on in the comic, but going down to Belkar's level to feud with him nudged her alignment south.

[Jasdoif]

I'm reminded of the Burn Everything feat from 4e. I usually allow it in 3.5 games because, frankly, everyone and their grandmas resist fire and that's just no fun if you like to burn stuff.So...it's a non-metamagic version of Searing Spell?

[Shining Wrath]

Reminder: half of Flame Strike's damage is divine, and not affected by Fire Resistance. So if Ponchella did make her save, she would have taken 20 damage out of 40, not 10.

I agree. 20 is still not significant unless someone puts some more hurt on Ponchella or Curls next round - but scathe is being dealt. The one Order member off-screen is Roy. Everyone but the clerics is in panel #2, Minrah shows up in panel #4, and then Hilgya burns it all down. I have to think that Roy is going to smack some vampires around with green flame next time we see him. That may not be strip #1120, as that might, possibly, be entirely a behind-the-eyes dialogue.

[Fyraltari]

MOUHAHAHAHAHAHA, YES! BURN, BURN! BY FIRE BE PURGED!

*Ahem*

Elan is as hilarious as ever, naturally.


Thanks for the reminder. It appears that it just saved him some lost HP. I suppose that makes it a good investment.
Nice one.

[The MunchKING]

Which now makes me wonder if Hel can do something to prevent the resurrection of souls in her domain. A raid on literal hell could be an interesting last act for the book.

CAN?? Possibly. She's a Goddess of Death. WILL? Almost certainly not, her plans are hinging on everyone of the Gods following if not the spirit, the letter of the Rules.

That's not the time to start rocking the apple cart. Especially without significant gains for it. No way she's going to do it just to help a Cleric of Loki, unless the cleric casts one of the spells provided for that purpose.

[LadyEowyn]

Okay, I'm starting to think Durkon was a pretty poor cleric, because Hilgya seems to be contributing a lot more to this fight that he typically did (with the exception of Holy Word in the pyramid fight).

[Rrmcklin]

Okay, I'm starting to think Durkon was a pretty poor cleric, because Hilgya seems to be contributing a lot more to this fight that he typically did (with the exception of Holy Word in the pyramid fight).

Not really a fair comparison when they knew what was coming in advance, and actually bothered to plan things out. They've emphasized that's why things are going this way, so I'm not sure why people keep forgetting it.

That, and this battle is seemingly just really plays to a cleric's strengths, and a chaotic (or chaos domain, whatever) strengths even more so.

[Jay R]

I get the feeling that Rich, who is a very knowledgeable D&D player, has been frustrated for years at the fact that he had to run the party incompetently for humor's sake, and is letting it all out now.

[Fyraltari]

I get the feeling that Rich, who is a very knowledgeable D&D player, has been frustrated for years at the fact that he had to run the party incompetently for humor's sake, and is letting it all out now.

Less for humour's sake and more for goodstorytelling's sake. There's no drama if the heroes win.

[tyckspoon]

Dammit, I never noticed they rewrote that when they did the revision. Actually, now it looks like there is no real difference between a Delay and a Ready.

Delay makes you hold until another initiative count, but you have freedom to decide when to act. Ready allows you to respond to and interrupt a specific other action, and doesn't go off until and unless the specified trigger happens. You can lose your turn entirely if you Ready for something that ends up never happening, where Delay will eventually end up with 'well, every other participant in this fight went, it's your turn now.'


Okay, I'm starting to think Durkon was a pretty poor cleric, because Hilgya seems to be contributing a lot more to this fight that he typically did (with the exception of Holy Word in the pyramid fight).

I dunno, that Mass Death Ward spell he researched would have been really handy here.. :smalltongue: One of the things that keeps getting bought up in the story arc here is Durkon's passivity. Things tend to happen to him rather than him happening to other things; even in the situations where he's a key part of resolving it, he tends to be acting in support of another character (the Control Weather to blow up the treants, the 'My response is Giant Dwarf' scene in the battle for Azure City where he rescued Hinjo.. I'm sure there's other examples I'm not recalling right now.) So his style of cleric-ing is very traditional buff-and-healbot. Hilgya seems to be more a person who happens to other people, so her approach to combat and usage of her spellcasting is likewise more aggressive.

[Mandor]

Hm. I'm not clear on exactly how she gets to do a Pierce-Through-Protection-Flame-Strike, but Thor could not ignore Greg's Control Weather on the boat. Maybe Loki can get away with it because it's Cleric V Cleric, not Deity V Cleric?

We don't need that Domain Agreement being broken here though.....

[Yendor]

Hm. I'm not clear on exactly how she gets to do a Pierce-Through-Protection-Flame-Strike, but Thor could not ignore Greg's Control Weather on the boat. Maybe Loki can get away with it because it's Cleric V Cleric, not Deity V Cleric?

Because it's explicitly part of Flame Strike's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) effect?


A flame strike produces a vertical column of divine fire roaring downward. The spell deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). Half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.

[Mandor]

It's not really all that surprising to me that the Order isn't having a lot of problems here. I mean, Roy by himself was pretty close to a match for Durkula and it wasn't until about half-way through that he took the fight completely seriously. With the buffing from V and Hilgya, this SHOULD be a bit of a cake-walk for the order, shouldn't it? What I'm wondering is how Rich is going to provide tension - gate in a couple of devils, maybe?

Do we know exactly where Durkon's da collapsed the tunnels to trap the Draconic Fire-Breathing Troll? Might they have unearthed it? And Vampirized it?

[Fyraltari]

Because it's explicitly part of Flame Strike's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) effect?

I assumed that was why the "empowered" part was for.

[Mandor]

Because it's explicitly part of Flame Strike's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) effect?

Ah. OK. Last time I dealt with sourcebooks for D&D was 1991, so .... yea. I suppose I should expect many things to have changed out from under me. Thanks for the link / correction.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Delay makes you hold until another initiative count, but you have freedom to decide when to act. Ready allows you to respond to and interrupt a specific other action, and doesn't go off until and unless the specified trigger happens. You can lose your turn entirely if you Ready for something that ends up never happening, where Delay will eventually end up with 'well, every other participant in this fight went, it's your turn now.'

You can Delay indefinitely, which is just the same as not taking an action. Or you can Delay until an initiative point where a specific action happens, and react then, which is just the same as using Ready. Except you can do it longer.

So, needless duplication for very minor difference in effect. See also 604 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html).

[Phoniex]

FIRE FROM HEAVEN! :smallcool:

In other news, V should step in with a Cacophonic Burst or something, just to return the sonic damage favor.

The only thing I worry about is the sound lance.. I could not find that specific spell in the SRD. The closest I found was
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soundBurst.htm
Which can stun you for a round.. so V might not have an action next round because he could be stunned... if sound lance stuns when you fail your save.

[Kish]

My understanding is that if you delay, you can say, "I want to go now!" but you can't cut anyone else off. Whereas if you ready, you have to name specific circumstances you'll react to, but you get to act before those circumstances are actually resolved.

In other words:
:roy: "I delay."
:thog: "thog charges extra-talky elf!"
Thog charges Vaarsuvius, doing nasty damage to them and ending turn adjacent to them.
:roy: "I act now and attack Thog!"
:vaarsuvius: "I seem to be in trouble."

or,
:roy: "I ready against Thog moving."
:thog: "thog charges extra-talky elf!"
:roy: "No you don't!"
Roy steps between Thog and Vaarsuvius; Thog's declared charge on Vaarsuvius, no longer legal, turns into him moving and attacking Roy.
:thog: "Talky-man get in Thog's way! Rarg!"

[georgie_leech]

The only thing I worry about is the sound lance.. I could not find that specific spell in the SRD. The closest I found was
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soundBurst.htm
Which can stun you for a round.. so V might not have an action next round because he could be stunned... if sound lance stuns when you fail your save.

Spell Compendium spell, alas.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

See, Hilgya, you only need to cover one of Kudzu's eyes. That way, he can have a neat eyepatch and still be able to see.

[Kish]

Spell Compendium spell, alas.
1d8 damage per caster level to a single target, maximum 10d8, Fortitude save for half. No stun or other non-damage effects. Actually a pretty bad spell for its level (4 for a cleric, 3 for a sorcerer or wizard) except for the expectation that many enemies will resist fire and very few will resist sound.

[warmachine]

This cartoon does show something I wish D&D sessions had: familiars played as characters. Strictly, they're NPCs, so the DM can play them but DMs have other NPCs to play. I've played Wizards with talking familiars before and offered other players to play the familiar but no one's taken the offer. A pity as familiars could act as an alternative opinion, even with a sarcastic, blunt or other tone the player's PC doesn't use.

[Jasdoif]

1d8 damage per caster level to a single target, maximum 10d8, Fortitude save for half. No stun or other non-damage effects. Actually a pretty bad spell for its level (4 for a cleric, 3 for a sorcerer or wizard) except for the expectation that many enemies will resist fire and very few will resist sound.I think it was intended for annoying high-dex targets at low/mid level, since it doesn't need an attack roll nor offer a Reflex save to allow evasion.

[Gnoman]

I assumed that was why the "empowered" part was for.

"empowered" means "This spell takes a spell slot 2 levels higher, but anything you roll dice for is increased by 50% (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm) An empowered Flame Strike (which requires a 7th level spell slot, so a minimum cleric level of 13) will average 67 - 76 damage depending on level.

[Babytarresque]

Prediction: Durkula will plumb Durkon's memories, recognize Hilgya, put two and two together about baby at "the speed of thought", and even if not still, "vulnerable baby among good-aligned adventurers!" and either command his minions after it and/or target kudzu himself, providing a hostage situation in an attempt to get the OOTS to back off and facilitate him and as many minion's as possible escape, AND setting the Stage for Durkon to unleash every memory trick and ounce of resistance he has left to both show his own personal growth and resolve, AND to contribute however he can to save his just realized he had Son. Knowing Rich, the outcome PROBably won't be tragic...or even crazier prediction, Belkar dies saving the child in the middle of all this.... Abjurations protecting Kudzu or not, if enough of that room of vamps targets baby and baby alone...well they ARE team evil.

[Elenna]

Not actually the case (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm). If they delayed until after Vaarsuvius acted then their initiatives, for the rest of the combat, are set to "just after Vaarsuvius."

That said, Vaarsuvius might be delaying now as they float there, if Rich currently cares about initiative order.

I am pretty sure Rich does not currently care much about initiative order. :smalltongue:


It's not really all that surprising to me that the Order isn't having a lot of problems here. I mean, Roy by himself was pretty close to a match for Durkula and it wasn't until about half-way through that he took the fight completely seriously. With the buffing from V and Hilgya, this SHOULD be a bit of a cake-walk for the order, shouldn't it? What I'm wondering is how Rich is going to provide tension - gate in a couple of devils, maybe?

Personally, the tension I'm feeling right now is about what Durkon's reaction to Hilgya + Kudzu will be.


Pretty sure this is the equivalent to the Holy Word fight in the pyramid last book, in that the Order are going to fairly cleanly win the fight but not the "war" - at least Durkula, and possibly Ponchella & one or two others, are going to escape. The ExExcharch isn't going to be the villain in the rest of the book by himself, and we've yet to see Durkon's mum or family in the present day - too much setup there to go to "waste".

Hence why I was speculating that we may see Durkon use Word of Recall to head to Durkon's old bedroom or somesuch while bugging out.

Huh, I was kind of assuming this fight was the end of the book - it felt relatively final, and 5-10 more strips for battle plus 10-20 more strips for wrapup, talking to people, and some setup for the next book would put this one at or above the length of books 2-4. But you're right, we still haven't seen Durkon's family. Maybe they'll come into the story afterwards in relation to the baby?

Or maybe this will just be another longer book. I certainly wouldn't object. :smallbiggrin:


It's not enough to feel like it. She has to feel like it 5,000 gp in diamonds worth.

Does the Order still have that 5000 gp of diamonds they were planning to use back before the godsmoot? I remember there was some discussion about using it to pay the crew of the Mechane, but I can't remember if they actually needed to do so.

[Shatteredtower]

I know we already have a song reference here (and a good rendition of it in this discussion on page 1), but if Hilgya pauses to tend to Kudzu for a moment before casting another fire spell, it's time for "Disco Inferno".

You know, the song that begins, "Burn, baby, burn..."

(And now I see there's a song called "Burn Baby Burn". Well, you learn something new every day. Maybe I should have tried harder to learn something useful.)

[eilandesq]

Both clerics just popped level 7 slots, and Hilgya just openly declared herself as a cleric of Loki before dropping that column of divine fire on the bloodsuckers. I'll be surprised if Durkula doesn't smell a rat and immediately start trying to get information out of Durkon again.

[Ruck]

I study arcane sciences
I've the best classes!
I've got a crazy raven who wears dark glasses,
Vamps are burning great...

Bravo.


Pretty sure this is the equivalent to the Holy Word fight in the pyramid last book, in that the Order are going to fairly cleanly win the fight but not the "war" - at least Durkula, and possibly Ponchella & one or two others, are going to escape. The ExExcharch isn't going to be the villain in the rest of the book by himself, and we've yet to see Durkon's mum or family in the present day - too much setup there to go to "waste".

Hence why I was speculating that we may see Durkon use Word of Recall to head to Durkon's old bedroom or somesuch while bugging out.

I don't know all the rules, but I thought Word of Recall required a specific destination selected when preparing the spell-- and one familiar to the caster. I don't think Durkula can use it in this fashion.


I mean unless Hilgya also dumped Knowledge: Religion, she knows this is not the real Durkon. She has to kill the vampire, rez it, then kill Durkon:smalltongue:

Given how she talks about Durkon "embrac[ing] such a descent into unnatural depravity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html)" in #1107, I'd say the indication is strong she does not know that Durkon and the vampire are distinct entities.


If HPoH doesn’t already realize that the OOTS has another cleric, he’ll probably start to figure it out now.

Yeah, I think this pretty much blows the cover on the Order's secret weapon, but the excitement now is finding out how Durkula will react, what memories he will see to inform him of who Hilgya is, etc.

Given Durkula's aversion to biology as gross and icky, and his inability to understand why Durkon connects memories together, will he even realize Kudzu is Durkon's son?

[Peelee]

I don't know all the rules, but I thought Word of Recall required a specific destination selected when preparing the spell-- and one familiar to the caster. I don't think Durkula can use it in this fashion.

I thin they meant that Word of Recall would pull the vampire back to [guesses as to which location may have been pre-set]. Also, I'd totally say the Vampire gets to use Durkon's memories as his own for proposes of familiarity with teleportation spells.

[Kish]

The next question is: Does Durkon actually know a location in dwarven lands that he still counts as "very familiar with," considering how many years he's been away?

[Ruck]

I thin they meant that Word of Recall would pull the vampire back to [guesses as to which location may have been pre-set]. Also, I'd totally say the Vampire gets to use Durkon's memories as his own for proposes of familiarity with teleportation spells.

Hmm. I thought "Durkon's old bedroom" in Reboot's post referred to his bedroom at his home here in Dwarven Lands, which is somewhere he hasn't been in so long that it would be strange to me if it even qualified as familiar destination to him (edit: I see Kish beat me to this exact point), let alone whatever the rules allow for a vampire as far its host's memories. (I'm less confident in that interpretation than you are, but I'm guessing there's no clear rule on it either way?)

[Kish]

There is no clear rule for how vampires interact with their host's memories--just a throwaway line about someone turned into a vampire being "trapped in a body controlled by a malign intelligence."

[Kareasint]

Okay, Elan, hit them again.

I wonder if our little fire cleric has a 6th level bomb loaded.

Undeath to Death. A mass cure would also be a solid choice. I wonder if V has Slow.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The next question is: Does Durkon actually know a location in dwarven lands that he still counts as "very familiar with," considering how many years he's been away?

Given how little changes for most human sites in the real world, and dwarves being even more stick in the mud change resistant, probably. Heck, it looks like the feast hall probably would qualify.

[Casimir-Ivanova]

Correction to my earlier post: Elan is casting Mass Cure Light (d8 + caster level) while DurkonT is casting Mass Inflict Serious (3d8 + caster level), so the vampire's spell did 9 more points of negative energy than Elan's did of positive energy, plus 1 per caster level (I don't think we know if Dashing Swordsman adds to Elan's caster level).

Therefore, unless Belkar's unwounded state is an art error, Belkar must have made his Will save against Inflict Serious. Is Death's Little Helper developing ... wisdom?

As my Wisdom 6 Godbound demonstrated during a Spot Check, you can always roll a 20. :P

Although in my case I burned an xp getting one of the standard godbound gifts later on to boost that 6 up to 18, but still, after all the domination saves he failed, he's bound to get lucky once or twice. :D

[dtilque]

Probably the coolest Elan has ever looked. He's never gotten an actual awesome moment without any separate comedy, and now he's actually being serious.

He's vocalizing positive energy to hurt undead, which is a continuation of the previous joke.


Belkar got another turn surprisingly quickly. I'm going to chalk that to rule of funny, I think.

Edit: Err... maybe not. We are back at the top of the initiative. V might have had a poor roll, but everyone else delayed until after V's turn, and now Belkar is back at the top, just after Elan.

That particular vampire was slowed by the Chaos Hammer. According to the rules, that doesn't make any difference to Initiative rolls, although it may in this comic.

[skaddix]

Hmm Roy is really playing back.

[DataNinja]

Prediction: Durkula will plumb Durkon's memories, recognize Hilgya, put two and two together about baby at "the speed of thought", and even if not still, "vulnerable baby among good-aligned adventurers!" and either command his minions after it and/or target kudzu himself, providing a hostage situation in an attempt to get the OOTS to back off and facilitate him and as many minion's as possible escape, AND setting the Stage for Durkon to unleash every memory trick and ounce of resistance he has left to both show his own personal growth and resolve, AND to contribute however he can to save his just realized he had Son. Knowing Rich, the outcome PROBably won't be tragic...or even crazier prediction, Belkar dies saving the child in the middle of all this.... Abjurations protecting Kudzu or not, if enough of that room of vamps targets baby and baby alone...well they ARE team evil.

The vampire hasn't exactly been good at association so far, though. In fact, he's been pretty explicitly bad at it.

[RickDaily12]

https://pics.me.me/suddenly-there-came-a-swagging-as-of-someone-gangsta-rapping-20699119.png

At least we have a pretty good depiction of what Blackwing IRL would look like. :smallcool:

Now, I do have to admit, now that each member of the Order has entered the fray... that is a LOT fewer dead spawn than I thought we'd see after Hilgya nuked everything with Chaos Hammer.

I doubt this fight is only going to be a pure curb-stomping for the Order as well, so I'm going to bet on Greg having some more aces up his sleeve before his ship goes down in flames. With a low level Cleric of Thor and a literal infant running around that many undead, I have to admit I'm concerned about what happens next...

Still, way to keep it positive, Elan! :smallbiggrin:

[eilandesq]

Hmm Roy is really playing back.

There's a big crowd of badly wounded weak vampires in the middle of the room--a charge followed by a lot of Great Cleaving might take out a whole bunch of them before they can mess up Elan.

[gooddragon1]

Also, just thought of it... avian-ator shades.

[sotanaht]

Correction to my earlier post: Elan is casting Mass Cure Light (d8 + caster level) while DurkonT is casting Mass Inflict Serious (3d8 + caster level), so the vampire's spell did 9 more points of negative energy than Elan's did of positive energy, plus 1 per caster level (I don't think we know if Dashing Swordsman adds to Elan's caster level).

Therefore, unless Belkar's unwounded state is an art error, Belkar must have made his Will save against Inflict Serious. Is Death's Little Helper developing ... wisdom?

You're taking averages. 3d8 could easily have just been 3, while Elan's 1d8 might have been 8. Dice are fickle things. Plus I don't think an "uninjured" appearance means exactly 100% health.

[SlashDash]

This cartoon does show something I wish D&D sessions had: familiars played as characters. Strictly, they're NPCs, so the DM can play them but DMs have other NPCs to play. I've played Wizards with talking familiars before and offered other players to play the familiar but no one's taken the offer. A pity as familiars could act as an alternative opinion, even with a sarcastic, blunt or other tone the player's PC doesn't use.
We actually did that.

I had a sorcerer who took improved familiar (or whatever it was called) and leadership.

So he had an Archon familiar with an imp Cohort - literally the good and bad angels on my shoulders :)
We had someone who came irregular to our group, so when he did, he played them.
He constantly moved to my left and right when he switched characters.

It came out pretty funny.



We also had something slightly similar back when we first started playing 3e.
I had a Druid who had 4 animal companions : Mouse, cat, dog and hawk
Then he cast awaken on them.

Oddly enough, the mouse ended up with the most HP and all of them had more intelligence than I did.
The DM used to play them as if they were taking shifts babysitting their "special needs" druid.

[RicB76]

Don't know about Blackwings shades. I was glad I was wearing mine when I read this strip! 😎

[Kareasint]

Hmm Roy is really playing back.

I am starting to wonder if he is moving to strike at the main target. Between Hilgya, V and Elan, there is enough AoE damage here to either take out the other vampires or keep them busy.

[Shining Wrath]

You're taking averages. 3d8 could easily have just been 3, while Elan's 1d8 might have been 8. Dice are fickle things. Plus I don't think an "uninjured" appearance means exactly 100% health.

I don't have enough coffee yet to feel like doing the math, but let's just say I think a successful save is a little more likely than beating 3d8 with 1d8 (plus, there's the question of Elan's caster level - does it advance with Dashing Swordsman levels?).

I am starting to wonder if he is moving to strike at the main target. Between Hilgya, V and Elan, there is enough AoE damage here to either take out the other vampires or keep them busy.

When last we saw Roy he was in front of Belkar, talking and charging toward the vampires. In this strip, Belkar is at the front of the crowd hit by Mass Inflict Serious. I surmise that Roy is close enough to reach the vampires next round.

Which may not be next strip, as I think next strip will be entirely "Behind the eyes" as Durkon and DurkonT realize who Hilgya is - and then, who Kudzu is.

[Peelee]

I don't have enough coffee yet to feel like doing the math, but let's just say I think a successful save is a little more likely than beating 3d8 with 1d8 (plus, there's the question of Elan's caster level - does it advance with Dashing Swordsman levels?).


When last we saw Roy he was in front of Belkar, talking and charging toward the vampires. In this strip, Belkar is at the front of the crowd hit by Mass Inflict Serious. I surmise that Roy is close enough to reach the vampires next round.

Which may not be next strip, as I think next strip will be entirely "Behind the eyes" as Durkon and DurkonT realize who Hilgya is - and then, who Kudzu is.

It is more likely, but dude was right that you shouldn't have said Belkar must have made his Will save. Dunno if that was what they were focused on, but it was a good point.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The punchline seemed a bit lolrandom for my tastes. Luckily, Elan and Belkar balance that out with their ignorant and blunt commentary. Character-driven humor FTW!

[KorvinStarmast]

I study arcane sciences
I've the best classes!
I've got a crazy raven who wears dark glasses,
Vamps are burning great...
The undead are gettin' deader
I'm using my flight,
Belkar's got blades
This fight is so bright
I gotta wear shades

Timbukthree: blast from the past.

[Necris Omega]

Well, the Cleric of Loki is out of the bag, but it isn't like you can do much with a Cleric in a bag anyways... and while HPoH might not have any further tactical tricks up his sleeve the Order doesn't already know about, they don't know that he left a minion behind to finish the job in the event of an emergency.

That and the fate of Hilgya's child are the two wildcards I'd put my money on as driving the plot at the end of this showdown.

[KorvinStarmast]

The art in the last panel I really like; the flame strike is nice, but the way Rich plays with shadows in the next panel really appeals to me.

FIRE FROM HEAVEN! :smallcool: Hopefully, as sung by Guadalcanal Diary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUEtYwOBw5s)...

Okay, I'm starting to think Durkon was a pretty poor cleric, because Hilgya seems to be contributing a lot more to this fight that he typically did (with the exception of Holy Word in the pyramid fight). Call lightning at Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html).


Ah. OK. Last time I dealt with sourcebooks for D&D was 1991, so .... yea. I suppose I should expect many things to have changed out from under me. Thanks for the link / correction. (5e brought me back to the game. If you have time, might want to give it a try).


This cartoon does show something I wish D&D sessions had: familiars played as characters. Yeah; even though it's more work for a DM, some goodness can arise. (Also, 5e has an option in the MM to do just that; familiar as NPC being an imp, pseudodragon, etc)


EdgarABro humor Thanks, that was fun.
Last thought: nice to see Minrah laying some hammer to the face of a spawn. (Panel 4)

Hmm: Belkar shown taking damage in panel 2, but in panel 5 no red lines are seen. He may have been the last recipient of Elan's cure spell, but was just off screen (see where he was standing in panel 2).

[JumboWheat01]

Sometimes you want to really burn something. For those times, you go with an empowered spell from the gods.

[happycrow]

The undead are gettin' deader
I'm using my flight,
Belkar's got blades
This fight is so bright
I gotta wear shades

Timbukthree: blast from the past.

hrm... I mislike using the original lyrics.

I study arcane sciences
I've the best classes!
I've got a crazy raven who wears dark glasses,
Vamps are burning great,
Her giraffes stomped their letters,
We're fighting this right,
Thrashing them shades,
It's my turn to fight,
Let's finish off Braids....

[lcavalheiro]

hrm... I mislike using the original lyrics.

I study arcane sciences
I've the best classes!
I've got a crazy raven who wears dark glasses,
Vamps are burning great,
Her giraffes stomped their letters,
We're fighting this right,
Thrashing them shades,
It's my turn to fight,
Let's finish off Braids....

For all non USA-residents' sake, what is the original lyrics?

[The MunchKING]

For all non USA-residents' sake, what is the original lyrics?

https://genius.com/Timbuk-3-futures-so-bright-i-gotta-wear-shades-lyrics

[lcavalheiro]

Also, did only I get the stealth pun on that bright nuke of Hilgya as a nuke-generated cloud mushroom? Blackwing would may say "and now we are become Death, the Destroyer of worlds" as well hehehehe

[lcavalheiro]

https://genius.com/Timbuk-3-futures-so-bright-i-gotta-wear-shades-lyrics

Thanks a lot

[Slaine]

Love the final panel shading - that looks awesome.

[Valynie]

Since no one commented on it and it came to me when I read the comic .
I knew Hilgya was still carrying the flame for Durkon just not that way :)

[Crœsos]

I like the level of detail in the last panel, too. Especially that you can pick out Blackwing's legband with his "bauble" on it.

[kiapet]

Thirding how awesome that last panel is.

Also, I continue to love how Elan has grown into someone who's legitimately useful while also being extremely silly and dumb. "Both at the same time" indeed!

[Doug Lampert]

You can Delay indefinitely, which is just the same as not taking an action. Or you can Delay until an initiative point where a specific action happens, and react then, which is just the same as using Ready. Except you can do it longer.

So, needless duplication for very minor difference in effect. See also 604 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html).

The differences really aren't minor.

Ready gives you ONE action rather than a full turn, it goes only on a specific trigger, and it is an interrupt that goes PRIOR to whatever you've readied for.
Delay gives you a full turn, it goes whenever you want, but it goes after whatever action makes you decide to go now.

There are very few situations where these are interchangable. You ready for the enemy to do something that you want to stop. Delay is because you want to wait for the situation to develop without committing to losing a full turn.

[Thurulian]

After the Damage Ponchula took from Hilgyas' spell, i think its safe to assume she is going to be an easy fight for Roy now. I am still kinda curious whats going to happen when the realize Exarch isnt there

[Keltest]

After the Damage Ponchula took from Hilgyas' spell, i think its safe to assume she is going to be an easy fight for Roy now. I am still kinda curious whats going to happen when the realize Exarch isnt there

I don't know that they would. Vampires don't typically leave traditional identifiable corpses.

[Thurulian]

I don't know that they would. Vampires don't typically leave traditional identifiable corpses.

Yeah but we cant forget about Durkulas' tendency to rub his plans in Roy's face, maybe Durkula will tell him as hes about to land the final blow allowing Durkula to escape in the moment of confusion.

-On another note is anyone else curious to see what Xykon is up to?

[Ruck]

-On another note is anyone else curious to see what Xykon is up to?

I imagine he's still up to roughly what he was the last time we checked in, and that we'll only check in when something changes on that front. (I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't until the epilogue of this book.)

[dtilque]

The art in the last panel I really like; the flame strike is nice, but the way Rich plays with shadows in the next panel really appeals to me.

It's one of the few (as in less than 5) times shadows have appeared in the artwork of the strip.


Hmm: Belkar shown taking damage in panel 2, but in panel 5 no red lines are seen. He may have been the last recipient of Elan's cure spell, but was just off screen (see where he was standing in panel 2).

Mass CLW can target up to the number of levels the caster has. For Elan that's 14 or 15 and we only see 7 getting it. So 7 or 8 others would include Belkar, V, and most or all of the vampires on the dias. But there's no preexisting damage on the dias group when they get flamebroiled, so maybe they were out of range.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hilgya/Durkon/Codurkon meeting & reactions: delayed another page. sigh. :smallfrown:
I'm expecting that the levity will be falling away shortly. Enjoy it while it lasts. Between DurkonT, the Hilgya drama, the baby in the middle of combat, and the plans to fix the vote that determines whether or not the world is destroyed...there's plenty of serious stuff that will be coming up soon.



(I don't think we know if Dashing Swordsman adds to Elan's caster level).
Dashing Swordsman's class features pretty much only come up as punchlines, so no we don't. However, it seems unlikely, since Dashing Swordsman sounds like a class which focuses more on physical skills, presumably intended for skillmonkies of all stripes (from rogues and rangers to bards and beguilers).



The table and the chair must have an insane protection from fire if the vampires take so much damage from the flame strike. The furniture shows no damage at all!
Scenery has immunity to all damage unless the players remember it exists. I think it's something to do with quantum mechanics?



-On another note is anyone else curious to see what Xykon is up to?
We last saw him in the middle of a task which could easily take months, maybe years, with our last image being of a spanner in the works. I think it's safe to assume they're still at it.
And it's definitely safe to assume that we won't see them again until after this all wraps up.

[Thurulian]

I imagine he's still up to roughly what he was the last time we checked in, and that we'll only check in when something changes on that front. (I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't until the epilogue of this book.)

Yeah I would assume that as well i just like to speculate, I was also thinking that we will be seeing Serini Toormuck, once this vampire business is all over maybe she will meet with the order,
or maybe O-chul will find her somewhere near the gate (or she will find him...).

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is Serini still alive? I'm pretty sure the Order of the Scribble's adventures were close to a century before the Order of the Stick came together, and while elves can live that long, I'm not sure halflings can.

[Snails]

The fact of Mass Cure Light Wounds proves that Elan is at least Bard13. It seems like a fair guess that he is Bard14/Dash1 with a caster level 14.

Mass Cure Light Wounds is 1d8 + 14 --> 18
Mass Inflict Serious Wounds is 3d8 + 15 --> 28

And everyone who does not like the effect gets a save for half. This is not a very good deal for Greg -- while he is outpacing Elan, V and Hilgya are going to take everyone else apart.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is Serini still alive? I'm pretty sure the Order of the Scribble's adventures were close to a century before the Order of the Stick came together, and while elves can live that long, I'm not sure halflings can.

Since Dorukan didn't die of old age, there is no particular reason to think Serini did either. She might have, but it is far from a certainty.

GW

[hamishspence]

Is Serini still alive? I'm pretty sure the Order of the Scribble's adventures were close to a century before the Order of the Stick came together, and while elves can live that long, I'm not sure halflings can.

66 years ago as of Paladin Blues, which was a bit less than 1 year before the present. Rounding off, about 67 years ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Keltest]

66 years ago as of Paladin Blues, which was a bit less than 1 year before the present. Rounding off, about 67 years ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Assuming she wasn't already middle aged at the time, she could fairly plausibly still be alive with a halfling's lifespan, though she would certainly have retired.

[Shining Wrath]

66 years ago as of Paladin Blues, which was a bit less than 1 year before the present. Rounding off, about 67 years ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Halflings live about 50% longer than humans per SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age). Sereni could expect to live to be 100 + 5d20, or 155, assuming that she didn't die as a consequence of routinely being around some of the most dangerous monsters in the world.

If the story requires her, she's still alive.

[TRH]

Since Dorukan didn't die of old age, there is no particular reason to think Serini did either. She might have, but it is far from a certainty.

GW

If anything killed her, it seems more likely it would have been Xykon rather than natural causes. He isn't really the type to steal something like the diary and just sneak out.

[zimmerwald1915]

If anything killed her, it seems more likely it would have been Xykon rather than natural causes. He isn't really the type to steal something like the diary and just sneak out.
See also: Fyron's crown.

[dtilque]

The fact of Mass Cure Light Wounds proves that Elan is at least Bard13. It seems like a fair guess that he is Bard14/Dash1 with a caster level 14.

He's definitely at least Bard 14, with an outside chance of 15.

[The MunchKING]

Thanks a lot

All in a Day's work.

[Thurulian]

If anything killed her, it seems more likely it would have been Xykon rather than natural causes. He isn't really the type to steal something like the diary and just sneak out.

Yeah but its never stated it seems he found her journal but there is never any mention of her being killed for it. I would love to see what the banter between her and belkar would be like.

[KorvinStarmast]

I knew Hilgya was still carrying the flame for Durkon just not that way :) *golf clap*
Halflings live about 50% longer than humans per SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age). Sereni could expect to live to be 100 + 5d20, or 155, assuming that she didn't die as a consequence of routinely being around some of the most dangerous monsters in the world. If the story requires her, she's still alive. She's the Act End Boss for Kraagor's Tomb. And I suspect that she'll have a few minions assisting her ... hmm, I need to look up in the SRD about rings of monster control ... Hmm, maybe wands of Monster Summoning IV, rods of rulership ... hmmm... thinking
I would love to see what the banter between her (Sereni) and belkar would be like. That would be a fun thing, and I think Rich could make that ROFLworthy and deep at the same time.

[Fyraltari]

Assuming she wasn't already middle aged at the time, she could fairly plausibly still be alive with a halfling's lifespan, though she would certainly have retired.

Considering she drew hearts around the head of the cool edgy rebel of the group in her diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), I will take my chances and bet that she wasn't middle aged when Soon's wife died.

[Keltest]

Considering she drew hearts around the head of the cool edgy rebel of the group in her diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), I will take my chances and bet that she wasn't middle aged when Soon's wife died.

As a sorcerer, Gerard would have the most charisma of the group by far. Only Soon and Serini would remotely have reason to compete with him, and Soon as a paladin would be too MAD to be able to do so. Its quite possible she finds him attractive because of that, and not specifically because he's "edgy" or "cool".

Not that I think she was remotely close to middle age, but there are legitimate reasons to be enamored with a sorcerer or bard.

[Shining Wrath]

As a sorcerer, Gerard would have the most charisma of the group by far. Only Soon and Serini would remotely have reason to compete with him, and Soon as a paladin would be too MAD to be able to do so. Its quite possible she finds him attractive because of that, and not specifically because he's "edgy" or "cool".

Not that I think she was remotely close to middle age, but there are legitimate reasons to be enamored with a sorcerer or bard.

I think the point is that drawing hearts is "teen" behavior, while an older woman might show more restraint.
At any rate, if she was anything less than 134 she's plausibly still alive (100 + 5d20 years maximum).

Serini is both alive and dead until we discover what the Giant's story requires. She's Schrodinger's hobbit.

[Ruck]

Is Serini still alive? I'm pretty sure the Order of the Scribble's adventures were close to a century before the Order of the Stick came together, and while elves can live that long, I'm not sure halflings can.

As others have outlined, she could still be alive, although Vaarsuvius being unable to send to her + how unlikely it is that Xykon would take her diary without killing her, if killing her was an option for him, are not good indicators for her health.


As a sorcerer, Gerard would have the most charisma of the group by far. Only Soon and Serini would remotely have reason to compete with him, and Soon as a paladin would be too MAD to be able to do so. Its quite possible she finds him attractive because of that, and not specifically because he's "edgy" or "cool".

Not that I think she was remotely close to middle age, but there are legitimate reasons to be enamored with a sorcerer or bard.

The point, I think, is more that Serini expresses that infatuation more as a teenager would than as an adult might, at least in what we've seen.

[Fyraltari]

I think the point is that drawing hearts is "teen" behavior, while an older woman might show more restraint.
At any rate, if she was anything less than 134 she's plausibly still alive (100 + 5d20 years maximum).

Serini is both alive and dead until we discover what the Giant's story requires. She's Schrodinger's hobbit.

The point, I think, is more that Serini expresses that infatuation more as a teenager would than as an adult might, at least in what we've seen.

Yes. Blablabla.

[lcavalheiro]

Yeah but its never stated it seems he found her journal but there is never any mention of her being killed for it. I would love to see what the banter between her and belkar would be like.

There's a precedent that being the owner of an object desired by Xyklon would harm your life expectancy, and stronger precedent says that if Xyklon kills you to get the object he desires, probably he won't remember doing that.

[lcavalheiro]

As others have outlined, she could still be alive, although Vaarsuvius being unable to send to her + how unlikely it is that Xykon would take her diary without killing her, if killing her was an option for him, are not good indicators for her health.



The point, I think, is more that Serini expresses that infatuation more as a teenager would than as an adult might, at least in what we've seen.

I don't know. Even adult women can be silly when infatuated, and looks like Stickverse doesn't forbid or prevent inter-species romance, so it might be sincere from her. But having something Xyklon wants can cut your life short indeed, so...

[Shining Wrath]

OTOH, if anyone could hide when they saw Xykon coming, it would be an epic-level rogue.

I retain the opinion that no one should be surprised by any option chosen by the Giant; alive, alive but doesn't appear, dead and death is mentioned, or dead and death is not mentioned.

[zimmerwald1915]

OTOH, if anyone could hide when they saw Xykon coming, it would be an epic-level rogue.

I retain the opinion that no one should be surprised by any option chosen by the Giant; alive, alive but doesn't appear, dead and death is mentioned, or dead and death is not mentioned.
Some weird indeterminate state. . .

[GreatWyrmGold]

Halflings live about 50% longer than humans per SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age).
That's about 40-60% longer than I expected. Man, humans really got the short end of the lifespan stick, didn't they? It seems like lifespan in D&D is inherently related to morality; the idealized demihumans all live significantly longer than humans do (with elves naturally living the longest), the demonized demihumans all live shorter lives, and humans (with their unavoidable mix of good and bad that players will be intimately familiar with) are in the middle, along with most races that aren't really idealized or demonized.
I think that's a another thing cribbed from Tolkien; IIRC, there was even stratification within elvenkind, with the "best" elves (closest to their original homeland and whatnot) living longer.


As a sorcerer, Gerard would have the most charisma of the group by far. Only Soon and Serini would remotely have reason to compete with him, and Soon as a paladin would be too MAD to be able to do so. Its quite possible she finds him attractive because of that, and not specifically because he's "edgy" or "cool".
Not that I think she was remotely close to middle age, but there are legitimate reasons to be enamored with a sorcerer or bard.
Infatuation based on appearance or force of personality is not a terribly mature trait. (I mean, infatuation in general isn't, but Cha-based infatuation even less so.) It's not absolute, but it's certainly a probabilistic indicator...especially when combined with the hearts.

[Sienar]

OTOH, if anyone could hide when they saw Xykon coming, it would be an epic-level rogue.

I retain the opinion that no one should be surprised by any option chosen by the Giant; alive, alive but doesn't appear, dead and death is mentioned, or dead and death is not mentioned.


Serin-dinger's rogue?

[Fyraltari]

I think that's a another thing cribbed from Tolkien; IIRC, there was even stratification within elvenkind, with the "best" elves (closest to their original homeland and whatnot) living longer.

Uh no. Elves live forever in Tolkien's Legendarium, they may "fade away" whatever that means but they never die, ever. Dwarves do live longer than human (Thorin is almost 200 by the Hobbit and explicitly very old while it is said that Dain went to (and died in) battle despite his advanced age (230-50, I think). And Ents lifespans are just ridiculous.

It might even be true of Orcs too (the immortality I mean) if one takes Shagrat's comment on the Old Days as something he personnally witnessed (2000 years prior).

[Stiletto]

Cure Light Wounds maximizes at 1d8 +5 (not level), even the mass version, so Elan's CLW, Mass really didn't do too much. I'm sure his zinger did much more!

[zimmerwald1915]

Cure Light Wounds maximizes at 1d8 +5 (not level), even the mass version, so Elan's CLW, Mass really didn't do too much. I'm sure his zinger did much more!
Mass cures and inflicts are different spells with different damage formulas from their single-target counterparts.

[Doorhandle]

H: Pyromaniac? :lol:



How much does Resist Fire cancel out though?

30 at best, which still leaves it as a solid smack at 45 damage

[Kish]

Mass cures and inflicts are different spells with different damage formulas from their single-target counterparts.
Indeed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWoundsMass.htm), as +25 is different from +5.

[eilandesq]

Indeed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWoundsMass.htm), as +25 is different from +5.

I had to look that one up--I never actually used that spell in a game before.

[Shining Wrath]

Uh no. Elves live forever in Tolkien's Legendarium, they may "fade away" whatever that means but they never die, ever. Dwarves do live longer than human (Thorin is almost 200 by the Hobbit and explicitly very old while it is said that Dain went to (and died in) battle despite his advanced age (230-50, I think). And Ents lifespans are just ridiculous.

It might even be true of Orcs too (the immortality I mean) if one takes Shagrat's comment on the Old Days as something he personnally witnessed (2000 years prior).

Orcs were elves corrupted by Morkoth back in the First Age, so they might partake of the elvish immortality. Makes their use as cannon fodder rather sad, in a way.

[Sloanzilla]

"Mommy's going to cover your sweet little eyes while she burns it all down"

Metal AF

[Covenant12]

Empowered Flame Strike takes up a level 7 spot (5 normally, +2 because it's Empowered), meaning that Hilgya is, at the very least, level 13. So far it has really been going the Order's way. I'm kind of expecting Greg to pull out some secret trick soon.Or at the very least realize there's a higher priority than "the bard". A 13th level cleric is a major enemy to vampires, and a god among vampire spawn. A free action verbal command to focus fire could be incoming quick.

Honestly the order is looking pretty good here. Team vampire is losing members and the order has tons of healing. Not-Durkon has 2-3 decent spellcasters but d12+0 isn't a ton of hit points, and V is due for his* turn. Even the vamps that made their saving throws took significant divine damage from that empowered flame strike.

*Yeah, I know a main joke is we don't know V's gender, but for years I saw -ius and assumed a Roman male gender.

[Jannoire]

I'm not informed on the actual level of Durkon (or Durkon*, for that matter), but I'd expect Hilgya to be of the same level, since she's something we could consider to be a personal nemesis, like Crystal was to Haley...

[Sloanzilla]

Heh, Belkar has the highest confirmed kill total in this combat. Doomsealer indeed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Orcs were elves corrupted by Morkoth back in the First Age, so they might partake of the elvish immortality. Makes their use as cannon fodder rather sad, in a way.
I'm having trouble thinking of what element about the orcs' backstory isn't sad. Probably the worst part is the victim-blamey component of "If the elves wanted to, they could die instead of turning into orcs". Well, and the Original-Sin-ish bit where the kids of elves-turned-orcs are stuck with orcishness, too. (Of course, both of those are far from unique in Tolkien's mythos, (https://www.thefandomentals.com/tolkien-race-original-sins/) what with the Christianity-inspired elements. Incidentally, me misremembering bits from that article is why I thought some elves were more immortal than others.)

[Shining Wrath]

I'm having trouble thinking of what element about the orcs' backstory isn't sad. Probably the worst part is the victim-blamey component of "If the elves wanted to, they could die instead of turning into orcs". Well, and the Original-Sin-ish bit where the kids of elves-turned-orcs are stuck with orcishness, too. (Of course, both of those are far from unique in Tolkien's mythos, (https://www.thefandomentals.com/tolkien-race-original-sins/) what with the Christianity-inspired elements. Incidentally, me misremembering bits from that article is why I thought some elves were more immortal than others.)

What Morkoth did was corrupt elves into orcs that bred true. He could not create life; that power was with Illuvatar, as shown when Aule created the dwarves and found that they could only obey him, and were not truly alive - until he gave them to Illuvatar as an offering of repentance. Likewise the ents were created due to a plea from Yavanna - she lacked the power to create them herself.

Why did the acquired orc characteristics pass on to the descendents? Well, maybe Tolkien was ahead of his time and the effects were epigenetic :smallsmile:, but more likely, Morkoth had power sufficient to modify the essence of the captured elves so that they passed orcishness down to their children.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What Morkoth did was corrupt elves into orcs that bred true...
If what I've read is accurate (I can't claim to have studied the Simarillion, or even the LotR wiki), he essentially magic-tortured the elves to make them evil (which made them orcs, because no true elf is evil). But because Tolkien didn't want people to be made evil against their will*, the elves could choose to die instead, and only the ones who would rather live evil than die good were actually turned into orcs.

*I think this had something to do with his Christian philosophy? I'm not sure how well it works with how I understand Christian mythology, but I can't really get into this Tolkien-adjacent theology without violating forum rules.


Why did the acquired orc characteristics pass on to the descendents? Well, maybe Tolkien was ahead of his time and the effects were epigenetic :smallsmile:, but more likely, Morkoth had power sufficient to modify the essence of the captured elves so that they passed orcishness down to their children.
Presumably. What I'm talking about is less the Watsonian implications (ie, why this corruption passed down from parent to child) and more the Doylist implications (the children are evil and corrupt because they inherited the sin of their forefathers). Which is something I can't really get into, because it's hard to discuss that without getting into real-world religious doctrine, which is against forum rules.

[PallElendro]

I'm a sucker for outdated memes. Also a sucker for "My attack is stronger than your defence" play.

[zimmerwald1915]

If what I've read is accurate (I can't claim to have studied the Simarillion, or even the LotR wiki), he essentially magic-tortured the elves to make them evil
Morgoth's Ring establishes that all material things, including the bodies of living beings, contain something of Morgoth and are susceptible to his influence. The implication is that his "monsters," including Orcs, have had it concentrated and activated by magic-torture.


no true elf is evil
If you'd studied the Silmarillion, you'd know this is not true. The Celegorm and Curufin in particular are just awful.

[Ruck]

OTOH, if anyone could hide when they saw Xykon coming, it would be an epic-level rogue.

I retain the opinion that no one should be surprised by any option chosen by the Giant; alive, alive but doesn't appear, dead and death is mentioned, or dead and death is not mentioned.

I would, in fact, be surprised if we get nothing more whatsoever from or about Serini by the end of the series. Beyond that, though, I'd agree.


I'm not informed on the actual level of Durkon (or Durkon*, for that matter), but I'd expect Hilgya to be of the same level, since she's something we could consider to be a personal nemesis, like Crystal was to Haley...

People have been saying this, but I don't think it's true; I don't think anyone in this strip qualifies as rivals except Haley and Crystal.

First, a rivalry can't be one-sided, which is the case here. (Otherwise, why not promote Roy to epic level because Xykon is his rival? He's been on a quest to destroy Xykon for longer and more determinedly than Hilgya has with Durkon.)

Second, Crystal and Haley knew each other for years and worked in close proximity in that time to become rivals. Hilgya and Durkon were part of rival adventuring groups on one quest and had sex once. They may have a child together, but I don't think that qualifies them as rivals.

[Doctor West]

To add my two cents cp, even if Hilgya qualified as Durkon's personal nemesis, the thing about a nemesis always being the same level is largely a joke about DMing methods. Since Hilgya is an ally to the PCs right now, there's no need for a hypothetical DM to set her level to be a credible threat to Durkon*. Rather the opposite, in fact: Durkon* and his minions need to be a credible threat to the Order.

But the comic doesn't indulge in blatant rules humor like that very much anymore.

[zimmerwald1915]

But the comic doesn't indulge in blatant rules humor like that very much anymore.
The comic indulged in blatant rules humor literally last strip.

[8BitNinja]

Do you think that the flame strike did more damage because it was empowering?

[Doctor West]

Hence why I said 'very much'. I realize having 50 page arguments over nothing is what we do here at giantitp.com but did you have something to say about my actual point?

[Mordar]

Do you think that the flame strike did more damage because it was empowering?

Dare I say...Hilgya leaned into the casting?

No, I daren't.

- M

[AutomatedTeller]

How did Mr Scruffy manage to not get killed by the mass inflict wounds? I assume he's right next to Belkar - does he get bonuses for being a rangers animal companion? I can't imagine a normal cat could survive that spell.

[Shining Wrath]

How did Mr Scruffy manage to not get killed by the mass inflict wounds? I assume he's right next to Belkar - does he get bonuses for being a rangers animal companion? I can't imagine a normal cat could survive that spell.

He's not actually shown, so perhaps he's slightly ahead of Belkar in panel #2, just out of range. Or he might be wherever Roy is, which is likely about the same place.

Or he might be something other than a normal cat. He was going through rats pretty fast when Gonetor summoned a rat swarm back on the ship.

Apropos nothing, Chekov's T-Rex is still inside Belkar's bag of holding, awaiting the great and terrible day of the Dispel Magic spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

does he get bonuses for being a rangers animal companion?
Among other things, more hit dice and a higher Constitution.

[Seward]

How did Mr Scruffy manage to not get killed by the mass inflict wounds? .

Scruffy is the animal companion of a high level ranger. Even though his base form is a housecat, he gets all the hitpoint and save bumps that advancing an animal companion would normally give. Belkar's ranger level is unclear as he also has at least one barbarian level, but it's almost certainly at least 12th level, possibly higher. In 3.5 ranger animal companions aren't all that strong, half strength (rather than level -3 as in Pathfinder), but still, Belkar's effective druid level is in the 6-8th level druid range. That means bonus hit dice of +4, natural armor +4, +2 strength and dex, empathic link, evasion, devotion(+4 to some kinds of will saves) and, because of hit dice, +2 to fort/reflex saves, +1 to will save.

A housecat is only con 10, with only 2 hp to start with, so Scruffy likely has about 20hp. Which means if Scruffy makes the save, Scruffy is still awake, and is healed to full by the mass CLW spell. On a failed save, odds are Scruffy is bleeding out rather than dead and revivable with the mass CLW spell, but we didn't see that, so that probably didn't happen. If Belkar got some buffs on Scruffy the odds of survival are better (eg, an Aid spell from either cleric would add 1d8+cleric level temp hitpoints, bear endurance would add 8 more etc, meaning Scruffy could fail the save and still be at max or near max hitpoints after the CLW).

Alternately Scruffy was just outside of the area range of the mass CSW spell - all targets have to be within 30 feet of each other, which sounds like a lot but in practice tends to leave one or two targets out that you'd want to include, and Scruffy would be a low priority target.

[Doug Lampert]

Scruffy is the animal companion of a high level ranger. Even though his base form is a housecat, he gets all the hitpoint and save bumps that advancing an animal companion would normally give. Belkar's ranger level is unclear as he also has at least one barbarian level, but it's almost certainly at least 12th level, possibly higher. In 3.5 ranger animal companions aren't all that strong, half strength (rather than level -3 as in Pathfinder), but still, Belkar's effective druid level is in the 6-8th level druid range. That means bonus hit dice of +4, natural armor +4, +2 strength and dex, empathic link, evasion, devotion(+4 to some kinds of will saves) and, because of hit dice, +2 to fort/reflex saves, +1 to will save.

A housecat is only con 10, with only 2 hp to start with, so Scruffy likely has about 20hp. Which means if Scruffy makes the save, Scruffy is still awake, and is healed to full by the mass CLW spell. On a failed save, odds are Scruffy is bleeding out rather than dead and revivable with the mass CLW spell, but we didn't see that, so that probably didn't happen. If Belkar got some buffs on Scruffy the odds of survival are better (eg, an Aid spell from either cleric would add 1d8+cleric level temp hitpoints, bear endurance would add 8 more etc, meaning Scruffy could fail the save and still be at max or near max hitpoints after the CLW).

Alternately Scruffy was just outside of the area range of the mass CSW spell - all targets have to be within 30 feet of each other, which sounds like a lot but in practice tends to leave one or two targets out that you'd want to include, and Scruffy would be a low priority target.
If we ignore the range limits, the Scruffy probably still doesn't get hit. Greg is about caster level 14, that means 14 targets. We see at least 10 targets getting hit (5 spawn, Haley, Elan, Belkar, V, Blackwing). That leaves at most 4 other targets. But Roy would be a high priority target and is not on panel and there's at least one more spawn I never saw X's for, and then there are two clerics in the doorway.

If the room is large, Mr. Scruffy may well have been out of range. If the room is small, Mr. Scruffy is possibly target number 15 out of 14 allowed.

[brian 333]

Mr. Scruffy is smart, and knows he cannot affect this combat's outcome other than as a distraction. Therefore he is doing the cat thing: watching the stupid humanoids do their tricks and hoping they have some tuna for him when it's all over.

But fear not, he is but a mighty spring-attack away if Belkar needs help with the killing.

[Kashem]

I think Serini is going to appear and feature pretty heavily in the next book. Honestly, she could be pretty dang angry at Roy and the Order for destroying all of the other gates, because it's pretty arguable that a world dominated by an evil lich will eventually pass (given time, SOMEONE will eventually defeat it), but a world that has been destroyed will never recover.
I also believe that her defense system is going to be a lot more than just what we've seen in the arctic. Complete the metaphor...
Dorukan (the wizard) believed his magic would defend the gate.
Soon (the paladin) believed his honor would defend the gate.
Girard (the illusionist) believed his illusions would defend the gate.
Lirian (the druid) believed that nature would defend the gate.
Serini (the rogue) believed that.... monsters? would defend the gate?
No.
Serini believed that deception would defend the gate.

I'm willing to bet that the gate isn't behind any of the doors, that the journal was intended to deceive readers into believing that they knew where the fifth gate was, that the gate is nowhere near Serini's supposed defenses. If Girard could lie to Soon about where his gate was, Serini would be more apt to lie to all of them. After all, who would know better than an epic rogue: you have to sell the lie.

[GreatWyrmGold]

First, a rivalry can't be one-sided, which is the case here. (Otherwise, why not promote Roy to epic level because Xykon is his rival? He's been on a quest to destroy Xykon for longer and more determinedly than Hilgya has with Durkon.)
Bad analogy. It's been established that only rivals of PCs level up with them. It's not established how PCs are different from NPC adventurers, but it's probably a fair bet that Xykon is an NPC.


Second, Crystal and Haley knew each other for years and worked in close proximity in that time to become rivals. Hilgya and Durkon were part of rival adventuring groups on one quest and had sex once. They may have a child together, but I don't think that qualifies them as rivals.
Better point.



In 3.5 ranger animal companions aren't all that strong, half strength (rather than level -3 as in Pathfinder)...
I'm pretty sure that's untrue?

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm pretty sure that's untrue?
Nah, it's true.


Animal Companion (Ex)
At 4th level, a ranger gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures may be added to the ranger’s list of options: manta ray, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind.

This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger’s effective druid level is one-half his ranger level. A ranger may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a druid can, though again his effective druid level is half his ranger level. Like a druid, a ranger cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce his effective druid level below 1st.

[brian 333]

By the time you get to the teen levels the ranger's Animal Companion is all but useless in combat. I used mine as a mobile encounter detector.

[Snails]

To have a really useful in combat Animal Companion for a Ranger, you have to go Beastmaster PrC or similar. The extreme was a Rnager/Paladin/HalflingOutrider, who could stack up Outrider levels on both the "effective Ranger level" and the "effective Paladin level" at the same time.

A Druid AC is pretty useful, because a Druid can summon some friends and buff up the AC and friends with Animal Growth.

A Ranger AC could Aid Other and provide a Flank for a new +4 to hit. Which works if you chose, say, a wolf rather than a housecat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini believed that deception would defend the gate.

I'm willing to bet that the gate isn't behind any of the doors, that the journal was intended to deceive readers into believing that they knew where the fifth gate was, that the gate is nowhere near Serini's supposed defenses. If Girard could lie to Soon about where his gate was, Serini would be more apt to lie to all of them. After all, who would know better than an epic rogue: you have to sell the lie. Yeah, that's the spirit. :smallcool:

[zimmerwald1915]

Which works if you chose, say, a wolf rather than a housecat.
Yeah, Mr. Scruffy can't provide a flank. He's a Tiny creature, and doesn't threaten outside his own square.

[Auric]

For a second there, I thought the title was "The Flyting's so Bright".

[Fish]

I also believe that her defense system is going to be a lot more than just what we've seen in the arctic. Complete the metaphor...
Dorukan (the wizard) believed his magic would defend the gate.
Soon (the paladin) believed his honor would defend the gate.
Girard (the illusionist) believed his illusions would defend the gate.
Lirian (the druid) believed that nature would defend the gate.
Serini (the rogue) believed that.... monsters? would defend the gate?
No.
Serini believed that deception would defend the gate.
I've often thought there's something to that. Consider the exact wording (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) of the story that Shojo tells: "She decided she would build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world." Nowhere in that wording does it actually say the Gate is in one of them.

[F.Harr]

This is so much fun.

And watching Elan be effective is so cool!

[lcavalheiro]

I've often thought there's something to that. Consider the exact wording (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) of the story that Shojo tells: "She decided she would build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world." Nowhere in that wording does it actually say the Gate is in one of them.

My headcannon says Kraagor's Gate is under his statue/tomb. It fills both Kraagor's belief in physical might (nastiest monsters in complex dungeons) and Serini's tendencies to deception.

[happycrow]

Do you think that the flame strike did more damage because it was empowering?

::clap clap clap::

[AutomatedTeller]

Scruffy is the animal companion of a high level ranger. Even though his base form is a housecat, he gets all the hitpoint and save bumps that advancing an animal companion would normally give. Belkar's ranger level is unclear as he also has at least one barbarian level, but it's almost certainly at least 12th level, possibly higher. In 3.5 ranger animal companions aren't all that strong, half strength (rather than level -3 as in Pathfinder), but still, Belkar's effective druid level is in the 6-8th level druid range. That means bonus hit dice of +4, natural armor +4, +2 strength and dex, empathic link, evasion, devotion(+4 to some kinds of will saves) and, because of hit dice, +2 to fort/reflex saves, +1 to will save.

A housecat is only con 10, with only 2 hp to start with, so Scruffy likely has about 20hp. Which means if Scruffy makes the save, Scruffy is still awake, and is healed to full by the mass CLW spell. On a failed save, odds are Scruffy is bleeding out rather than dead and revivable with the mass CLW spell, but we didn't see that, so that probably didn't happen. If Belkar got some buffs on Scruffy the odds of survival are better (eg, an Aid spell from either cleric would add 1d8+cleric level temp hitpoints, bear endurance would add 8 more etc, meaning Scruffy could fail the save and still be at max or near max hitpoints after the CLW).

Alternately Scruffy was just outside of the area range of the mass CSW spell - all targets have to be within 30 feet of each other, which sounds like a lot but in practice tends to leave one or two targets out that you'd want to include, and Scruffy would be a low priority target.


thanks. I haven't really read D&D rules since AD&D 1st edition.

[Ruck]

My headcannon says Kraagor's Gate is under his statue/tomb. It fills both Kraagor's belief in physical might (nastiest monsters in complex dungeons) and Serini's tendencies to deception.

I think #697 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), while not exactly analogous, does a pretty good explaining why this is unlikely.

[lcavalheiro]

I think #697 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), while not exactly analogous, does a pretty good explaining why this is unlikely.

Serini, contrary to Girard, knew how bluffing really works... but you made a valid point here.

[Kish]

"The power of deception" was Girard's thing. Explicitly. Limiting him to "illusions" would be a retcon.

You could say, based on class stereotypes, that Serini was even more deception-oriented than he was (and yet all her companions trusted her enough to listen when she appealed for peace, and please don't say this proves she was so good at deception that none of her companions realized she deceived them constantly because that would reach the level of a Mary Sue fanfic), but...I doubt it.

Full disclosure: For reasons entirely unrelated to the Gates, I'm rather hoping that, after making Haley a painfully stereotypical rogue who is a thief, Rich really is writing Serini as what her casual suggestion of taking a paladin level vaguely implies: a cheerful, friendly, entirely adventuring-oriented Lawful Good rogue.

[Gnoman]

"The power of deception" was Girard's thing. Explicitly. Limiting him to "illusions" would be a retcon.

You could say, based on class stereotypes, that Serini was even more deception-oriented than he was (and yet all her companions trusted her enough to listen when she appealed for peace, and please don't say this proves she was so good at deception that none of her companions realized she deceived them constantly because that would reach the level of a Mary Sue fanfic), but...I doubt it.

Full disclosure: For reasons entirely unrelated to the Gates, I'm rather hoping that, after making Haley a painfully stereotypical rogue who is a thief, Rich really is writing Serini as what her casual suggestion of taking a paladin level vaguely implies: a cheerful, friendly, entirely adventuring-oriented Lawful Good rogue.

Unlikely. It is pretty clear from what we've that she sided with Girard when the Order of the Scribble broke up, and "Girard not trusting Lawful types" was a core part of that feud.

[zimmerwald1915]

Unlikely. It is pretty clear from what we've that she sided with Girard when the Order of the Scribble broke up, and "Girard not trusting Lawful types" was a core part of that feud.
How is that at all clear? Just because Girard's trap would have notified her when it went off?

[georgie_leech]

How is that at all clear? Just because Girard's trap would have notified her when it went off?

If anything, I got the impression that she was more in between the two sides than a part of either. What with her suggesting the compromise while physically being between Soon and Girard.

[lcavalheiro]

"The power of deception" was Girard's thing. Explicitly. Limiting him to "illusions" would be a retcon.

You could say, based on class stereotypes, that Serini was even more deception-oriented than he was (and yet all her companions trusted her enough to listen when she appealed for peace, and please don't say this proves she was so good at deception that none of her companions realized she deceived them constantly because that would reach the level of a Mary Sue fanfic), but...I doubt it.

Full disclosure: For reasons entirely unrelated to the Gates, I'm rather hoping that, after making Haley a painfully stereotypical rogue who is a thief, Rich really is writing Serini as what her casual suggestion of taking a paladin level vaguely implies: a cheerful, friendly, entirely adventuring-oriented Lawful Good rogue.

I was thinking about bluffing, not just deception. As an illusionist, Girard has the upper hand over Serini on deception matters, but in plain bluffing? Sure he managed to pull a good one at Pyramid ("Sorry, you gate is in another pyramid"), but can we discard that Serini could do a good bluff herself?

Serini has other reason for bluffing about where her gate is. She wanted to be sure that no member of Order of Scribble could find the gate, in a scenario that one of them just threw the oath out the window. Putting the Kraagor statue over the gate and building a lot of dungeons near may dull any divination item other Order members could use (since statue is near dungeons, it would lead to a false positive), and won't be obvious. Pure win-win situation.

[SlashDash]

Sure he managed to pull a good one at Pyramid ("Sorry, you gate is in another pyramid")

Is it a good one though? The only person who was fooled by it was Nale.

Malack clearly eyed the gate suspiciously, so he likely realized that it blocked his true seeing and figured something was up.

Haley clealry thought this would be a good place for a double bluff.

Roy identified the gate via the materials used to built it.

It really wasn't that good of a deception.

[0z79]

I truly appreciate this comic, overall; I love this cornball of a story... but this punchline made me cringe a little.

The rest was great, though! ......maybe I'm just wanting more Elan.

[Peelee]

I was thinking about bluffing, not just deception. As an illusionist, Girard has the upper hand over Serini on deception matters, but in plain bluffing? Sure he managed to pull a good one at Pyramid


Immediately shooting your own argument in the foot is an interesting debate tactic, I gotta say. I'm interested to see how it plays out.

[Ruck]

I was thinking about bluffing, not just deception. As an illusionist, Girard has the upper hand over Serini on deception matters, but in plain bluffing? Sure he managed to pull a good one at Pyramid ("Sorry, you gate is in another pyramid"), but can we discard that Serini could do a good bluff herself?

Serini has other reason for bluffing about where her gate is. She wanted to be sure that no member of Order of Scribble could find the gate, in a scenario that one of them just threw the oath out the window. Putting the Kraagor statue over the gate and building a lot of dungeons near may dull any divination item other Order members could use (since statue is near dungeons, it would lead to a false positive), and won't be obvious. Pure win-win situation.

Again, though, I think it would be obvious. I cited #692 because I think the logic would be the same-- with so many dungeons to trudge through, anyone looking for the gate would think to check the statue, just in case. If the dungeon is a deception, it's more likely that Kraagor's Gate is nowhere near the dungeon.

[Shining Wrath]

I've often thought there's something to that. Consider the exact wording (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) of the story that Shojo tells: "She decided she would build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world." Nowhere in that wording does it actually say the Gate is in one of them.


I think Serini is going to appear and feature pretty heavily in the next book. Honestly, she could be pretty dang angry at Roy and the Order for destroying all of the other gates, because it's pretty arguable that a world dominated by an evil lich will eventually pass (given time, SOMEONE will eventually defeat it), but a world that has been destroyed will never recover.
I also believe that her defense system is going to be a lot more than just what we've seen in the arctic. Complete the metaphor...
Dorukan (the wizard) believed his magic would defend the gate.
Soon (the paladin) believed his honor would defend the gate.
Girard (the illusionist) believed his illusions would defend the gate.
Lirian (the druid) believed that nature would defend the gate.
Serini (the rogue) believed that.... monsters? would defend the gate?
No.
Serini believed that deception would defend the gate.

I'm willing to bet that the gate isn't behind any of the doors, that the journal was intended to deceive readers into believing that they knew where the fifth gate was, that the gate is nowhere near Serini's supposed defenses. If Girard could lie to Soon about where his gate was, Serini would be more apt to lie to all of them. After all, who would know better than an epic rogue: you have to sell the lie.

I think a rogue's forte, 3.5 rules wise, is not so much deception and bluffing but stealth, sneak attacks, and traps.

And Serini wanted to build a memorial to Kragor and physical might.

What might be, then, is not that the Gate isn't inside the dungeon. It's that if you manage to reach the Gate it is protected by one ungodly unholy mother of all traps, the trap before which all other traps tremble. Something along the lines of "Reach the Gate, don't say the password, release this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e)". Along with 257 Cloudkills, 152 Meteor Swarms, 53 Rust Monsters, and then the ceiling doors open and bathe the entire room in anti-magic fields from the main eyes of 1,000 Beholders.

And a mimic, because there needs to be a mimic as part of any trap. It's a rule or something.

[georgie_leech]

And a mimic, because there needs to be a mimic as part of any trap. It's a rule or something.

Nah, the dungeon was a mimic the whole time.

[The MunchKING]

My idea was if you're going to build a monument to strength and enurance and add a bit of rougish cunning, why hide the gate behind ONE tunnel, and make the possibility of guessing right a thing at all, when you can hide it behind EVERY tunnel?

The idea would be at the end of each tunnel is a hidden switch or something, and only if ALL of them are found and flipped would the Gate be revealed. That way you have to not just be lucky and stronger than the monsters in ONE section, but stronger than all the monsters in ALL the sections. Or powerful enough to level a magic-blocking super-mountain. Either or.

and best of all if you didn't KNOW about the switches you could try every door (Possibly multiple times if you didn't paint them like team evil) before you realize there's something you're not getting. And with monsters strong enough to level an already Epic Lich, pretty much anything less would have died long before.


EDIT it's basically the opposite of the Shell game, Haley mentioned, and thus demonstrates strength AND brains will be needed to beat it. That said it's probably expensive, which is why they ran out of money before the wizard got his water-room.

[Kish]

How is that at all clear?
Yeah, what? It is clear, as in the basis of an essential part of the backstory, that she did not "side" with anybody.

[hamishspence]

The "bet on when Soon will break his word"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html

did sound, from his comment, like it was between Girard and Serini.

[georgie_leech]

The "bet on when Soon will break his word"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html

did sound, from his comment, like it was between Girard and Serini.

A pool implies a group of people. It could be the remnants of the Order of the Scribble, but it could also refer to his family.

[Keltest]

The "bet on when Soon will break his word"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html

did sound, from his comment, like it was between Girard and Serini.

She could easily have bet that he wouldn't break it at all, since she probably had the slightest bit of understanding of what a paladin actually was.

I'm going to be honest, in hindsight, Gerard comes off like an idiot here and I suspect he is almost entirely responsible for the strife that separated the group.

[danielxcutter]

Woot! Go Hilgya!

[hamishspence]

Given that he's used "her and us" (where "us" is his family) it's true that it's possible that "we" only refers to "us".

I did think it sounded like Serini was in the pool though.


I suspect he is almost entirely responsible for the strife that separated the group.

I don't know - Dorukan is the one doing the yelling at Soon:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

[Ruck]

My idea was if you're going to build a monument to strength and enurance and add a bit of rougish cunning, why hide the gate behind ONE tunnel, and make the possibility of guessing right a thing at all, when you can hide it behind EVERY tunnel?

The idea would be at the end of each tunnel is a hidden switch or something, and only if ALL of them are found and flipped would the Gate be revealed. That way you have to not just be lucky and stronger than the monsters in ONE section, but stronger than all the monsters in ALL the sections. Or powerful enough to level a magic-blocking super-mountain. Either or.

and best of all if you didn't KNOW about the switches you could try every door (Possibly multiple times if you didn't paint them like team evil) before you realize there's something you're not getting. And with monsters strong enough to level an already Epic Lich, pretty much anything less would have died long before.


EDIT it's basically the opposite of the Shell game, Haley mentioned, and thus demonstrates strength AND brains will be needed to beat it. That said it's probably expensive, which is why they ran out of money before the wizard got his water-room.

Given how Redcloak has already lampshaded that they can't get just Ghostform directly to the Gate because the dungeons are built from extra-dimensional stone, I've been thinking... why wouldn't the Gate just be entirely surrounded by extra-dimensional stone? Why does the gate need to be accessible at all?

[Seward]

To have a really useful in combat Animal Companion for a Ranger, you have to go Beastmaster PrC or similar.

Yeah. Honestly we mostly used them as mounts for archer-type rangers. It's a damn tough horse, for example. Lighter rangers could also use dire bats to get a flying mount, although a ring of feather fall or similar is recommended because they still get suddenly dead at times. I preferred my arcane archer bat familiar - it could spot invisible stuff, was smart enough to do stuff more complex than "tricks" and hid really, really well.

I knew one guy who named his companions "speed bump <number>".

[Thurulian]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

It looks like in this comic that kraagor is on top of the rift, just from the placement of him so close to it in the one panel, then him turned to stone on what looks to be the same spot.
Im still just speculating. Also what happened to that virus that Hel mentioned.

[Kish]

Also what happened to that virus that Hel mentioned.
It has an incubation period of five weeks, as was mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html) in the sole strip that said anything about it at all.

A surprising number of people seem to have just read "there's a virus" and missed the entire context and punchline of the joke. The virus might, theoretically, come back some time in book seven instead of just being a joke; it will not affect Hel's scheme.

[Ruck]

Have we figured out how much time has passed between this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)? There's a good chance the sphinx pox never comes up in the strip at all.

[Thurulian]

It has an incubation period of five weeks, as was mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html) in the sole strip that said anything about it at all.

A surprising number of people seem to have just read "there's a virus" and missed the entire context and punchline of the joke. The virus might, theoretically, come back some time in book seven instead of just being a joke; it will not affect Hel's scheme.

Yes but arguably its been about 3 weeks since they left the desert where the virus was contracted so if it is going to appear it would be soon.

[Kish]

Yes but arguably its been about 3 weeks since they left the desert where the virus was contracted
1) No.
2) Even if you could handwave three weeks, you cannot disappear two more weeks. Hel's scheme will be resolved by the end of tonight. The Sphinx Pox will not be a factor. Accept that or don't, but it's still a fact.

[Keltest]

Yes but arguably its been about 3 weeks since they left the desert where the virus was contracted so if it is going to appear it would be soon.

While two weeks is technically "soon" in real time, Hel's plan is going to be made or broken within the next day or so. To say nothing of the fact that a couple of weeks could be years of strips to get through, depending on how eventful they are.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why does the gate need to be accessible at all?

Maintenance. And, according to Dorukan, because there are scenarios where it is preferable to allow the right person to destroy it rather than allowing it to stand. You may disagree with his assessment, but he's the one that built them, and thus might have insisted on them remaining accessible.

GW

[oonker]

Have we figured out how much time has passed between this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)? There's a good chance the sphinx pox never comes up in the strip at all.

I'd sugested someone start a thread to countdown Belkar's clock. I'd do it, but I'm too lazy and disorganized to keep it accurate.

[Ironsmith]

Given how Redcloak has already lampshaded that they can't get just Ghostform directly to the Gate because the dungeons are built from extra-dimensional stone, I've been thinking... why wouldn't the Gate just be entirely surrounded by extra-dimensional stone? Why does the gate need to be accessible at all?

It probably has something to do with the nature of the gates themselves. They're supposed to contain the rifts that lead to the Snarl, right? Given that such would imply bizarre spatial constructs, it's likely that trying to put extra-dimensional stone (also a bizarre spatial construct) around it is something like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

...Actually, I guess it's probably more like trying to put a square peg in a round peg without breaking either of them.

[lcavalheiro]

Immediately shooting your own argument in the foot is an interesting debate tactic, I gotta say. I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Sometimes I can see my previous argument was wrong, and I can correct it. Don't hurt admitting being wrong sometimes, I suppose.

[Peelee]

Sometimes I can see my previous argument was wrong, and I can correct it. Don't hurt admitting being wrong sometimes, I suppose.

I have a tendency to be a bit too flippant for my own good; I apologize for that. What I mean was you asked if we could really discount Serini bluffing herself as her big defense mechanism, when you acknowledge that we already saw that with Girard. So I actually do discount Serini using a bluff in that way, since it would be repetitive with what Girard did. And would also be significantly worse, since Girard's bluff still had the Gate be incredibly heavily defended, while if Serini bluffed and it was under the statue, it would effectively be rather pointedly undefended.

[Ironsmith]

I have a tendency to be a bit too flippant for my own good; I apologize for that. What I mean was you asked if we could really discount Serini bluffing herself as her big defense mechanism, when you acknowledge that we already saw that with Girard. So I actually do discount Serini using a bluff in that way, since it would be repetitive with what Girard did. And would also be significantly worse, since Girard's bluff still had the Gate be incredibly heavily defended, while if Serini bluffed and it was under the statue, it would effectively be rather pointedly undefended.

Actually, what I'm thinking is that Serini's gone and integrated ideas from all her party members into protecting the gate.

I mean, think about it. The gate itself and the extra-dimensional stone seem like the kinds of things Dorukan would come up with. Nature helps protect the gate not only because it's freaking cold and nobody in their right mind would come up there by chance, but also via whatever mechanism is in place to keep the tomb populated... certainly sounds like Lyrian's idea. Girard relied on deception, and what we've seen of the tomb provides ripe opportunities for that. Kraagor's reliance on physical might would explain the basic mechanics of the tomb, and naturally, it's his tomb. About the only one who doesn't have an obvious hand in how it's built would be Soon... but, four out of five isn't a bad track record.

Plus, from a meta perspective, it makes a whole lot of sense. Take a gander at this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinalExamFinale) and try to tell me it doesn't sound familiar.

[Peelee]

Actually, what I'm thinking is that Serini's gone and integrated ideas from all her party members into protecting the gate.

I mean, think about it. The gate itself and the extra-dimensional stone seem like the kinds of things Dorukan would come up with.

Right off the bat that fails, though, since the only correlation there is "magical material would interest a wizard who does magic." There was nothing at all like that in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the only relationship is at best a very nebulous stretch.

[Fyraltari]

I second Ironsmith.

Edit: Though we haven't seen all the defenses yet, there may be better links to the other Scribblers inside.

[Peelee]

I second Ironsmith.

Edit: Though we haven't seen all the defenses yet, there may be better links to the other Scribblers inside.

Not saying he's wrong, just that the connections built so far don't support the conclusion.

[Ironsmith]

Right off the bat that fails, though, since the only correlation there is "magical material would interest a wizard who does magic." There was nothing at all like that in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the only relationship is at best a very nebulous stretch.

Nothing that we saw. Let's not forget that Xykon had already conquered that dungeon by the time we saw any of it, and none of the party members would see fit to mention something like that, since they wouldn't have been nearly powerful enough to even know it was an obstacle.

Besides, if the idea of rocks that prevent a magical bypass doesn't sound wizard-y enough, there's also the fact that many monsters have spell-like abilities, and that with such a large and varied population, extensive study would be needed to make sure none of them wreaked unintended havok.

And just so it's clear, since I was probably too ambiguous in my last post; I'm not suggesting the other party members actually helped in building the tomb. What I'm suggesting is that Serini saw the highlights and integrated that into her dungeon's design. She did spend an extensive amount of time adventuring with them... is it too much of a stretch to suggest they may have rubbed off on her, to some degree?

[Shining Wrath]

Nothing that we saw. Let's not forget that Xykon had already conquered that dungeon by the time we saw any of it, and none of the party members would see fit to mention something like that, since they wouldn't have been nearly powerful enough to even know it was an obstacle.

Besides, if the idea of rocks that prevent a magical bypass doesn't sound wizard-y enough, there's also the fact that many monsters have spell-like abilities, and that with such a large and varied population, extensive study would be needed to make sure none of them wreaked unintended havok.

And just so it's clear, since I was probably too ambiguous in my last post; I'm not suggesting the other party members actually helped in building the tomb. What I'm suggesting is that Serini saw the highlights and integrated that into her dungeon's design. She did spend an extensive amount of time adventuring with them... is it too much of a stretch to suggest they may have rubbed off on her, to some degree?

The idea that a rogue would steal ideas from other people is scandalous, and I will not have it! :smallbiggrin:
I still think Serini's dungeon needs to incorporate traps (her metier) as well as big monsters (for Kragor), and when the Gate is reached some sort of trap will be sprung.

[2D8HP]

I have a tendency to be a bit too flippant for my own good,


No you don't, your flippancy is good, true, beautiful, and proper.


...I apologize for that...


Now that is what's wrong!

I demand that you immediately apologize for apologizing.

[Ironsmith]

Something else I forgot about, but which still connects Sereni's gate/Kraagor's tomb back to Dorukan; the dungeon's basically a big hole full of monsters, right? Surely Dorukan never built anything like that... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html)