'Dungeons & Dragons' to Announce New Settings for Fifth Edition Later This Year

[Arkhios]

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/06/04/dungeons-and-dragons-fifth-edition-campaign-settings/

About f**king time!

...thought I'd share this with you, if you hadn't seen it yet.

[samcifer]

Please be Eberron so I can finally play a Warforged or Shifter. If not that, then one of the realms that include Satyrs. Those are my favorite non-included races so far.

[War_lord]

"It's going to be more like at the level of how Barovia [introduced in the Curse of Strahd adventure storyline] is in terms of stuff. Here's a thing that's going to give you a taste of the setting, but we're not going to that setting yet, we're just letting you get in there and start doing it."

I think that's going to cause more wailing and gashing of teeth from the setting crazies then less.

[JadedDM]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Dragonlance.

[KorvinStarmast]

Please be Eberron so I can finally play a Warforged or Shifter. If not that, then one of the realms that include Satyrs. Those are my favorite non-included races so far. Kids play this game. A PC whose archetype is "I run around wanting to have sex with anything that moves" is hardly a must for a PC. (Yes, I get that adults play this game as well, and in the right group that might be hilarious fun to play ...)

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Dragonlance. Please, no, unless there is a published "Kender Genocide" adventure that comes with it. Then maybe.

I think that's going to cause more wailing and gashing of teeth from the setting crazies then less. That's gnashing :smallbiggrin: and I think you called that one. There might even be rending of garments. :smallcool:

My ask isn't much: Dark Sun.

Mike Mearls, D&D's franchise creative director, has also been teasing psionics on Twitter and in his weekly "Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour" program. Psionics are a core mechanic of multiple classes, including those featured in the Dark Sun campaign setting. Mike, you tease you ...

[HolyDraconus]

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!


Please, no, unless there is a published "Kender Genocide" adventure that comes with it. Then maybe.

Cause of the Chaos event, kender are more inline with other halflings. And even though Tass mucked with the timeline some, and some things were restored, kender do NOT have to be the klepto. They could do them like they did the gith.

[mgshamster]

I'm thinking it'll be something with the Planes, as all of my 5e Planescape stuff has been removed from the DMs Guild.

[Beechgnome]

I hope the first one is Eberron, because I want to play an Artificer and, to be honest, see what all the fuss is about.

Next year if they put out a spelljammer, dark sun or Planescape setting/adventure that would be nice.

Greyhawk and Dragonlance don't really do it for me.

[War_lord]

I hope the first one is Eberron, because I want to play an Artificer and, to be honest, see what all the fuss is about.

If it's an Eberron adventure the Eberron fans will lose it at the idea of anything FR (which will happen because adventurer's league) near their precious Eberron.

Going by the article this will be an adventure book holiday in a setting like CoS or ToA. Not a setting book.

[Beechgnome]

SNIP

Going by the article this will be an adventure book holiday in a setting like CoS or ToA. Not a setting book.

if that's the case then Sigil (as a means of simulating Planescape) would make sense. MTOF included references to Sigil with Maruts and Steel Predators. Maybe a high level planewalking romp.

[War_lord]

if that's the case then Sigil (as a means of simulating Planescape) would make sense. MTOF included references to Sigil with Maruts and Steel Predators. Maybe a high level planewalking romp.

Planescape would make a lot of sense given how heavily they've been pushing the "D&D multiverse" marketing. You could have an adventure that starts in the Sword Coast, goes through Sigil and ends off with a boss fight in Grayhawk. Anyway, the title of the threat is misleading, because the article doesn't imply any new setting books, never mind multiples.

[darknite]

Scuttlebutt I've seen is that it's on par to Curse of Strahd - a taste of a different setting put in module format with a few supporting rules to prime the pump for possible further expansion.

[samcifer]

Kids play this game. A PC whose archetype is "I run around wanting to have sex with anything that moves" is hardly a must for a PC. (Yes, I get that adults play this game as well, and in the right group that might be hilarious fun to play ...) ...

That's not all of what satyrs are about. Even I wouldn't play a satyr that way. Minds out of the gutter please. :)

[Beleriphon]

"It's going to be more like at the level of how Barovia [introduced in the Curse of Strahd adventure storyline] is in terms of stuff. Here's a thing that's going to give you a taste of the setting, but we're not going to that setting yet, we're just letting you get in there and start doing it."

I think that's going to cause more wailing and gashing of teeth from the setting crazies then less.

If its like Curse of Strahd then its means it will show up as an option for the DM's Guild. Which means there are a few setting creator, Keith Baker among them, has already outright said they'll start producing stuff as soon as they can.

Also, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, according to the article, contains a spelljammer helm.

[Beechgnome]

The much-speculated reboot of the Great Modron March would be a great Planescape introductory adventure. Plus, of course, more ridiculous modrons.

[xroads]

I'm hoping for either Dark Sun or Planescape. Maybe Eberron.

[2D8HP]

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/06/04/dungeons-and-dragons-fifth-edition-campaign-settings/


That's it?

Such a tease!


...unless there is a published "Kender Genocide" adventure that comes with it. ..

My ask isn't much: Dark Sun. ...


On-board for an "Athas invades Krynn mega-campaign!


I'm thinking it'll be something with the Planes, as all of my 5e Planescape stuff has been removed from the DMs Guild.


With the Giff in MToF's, that seems likely.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm thinking it'll be something with the Planes, as all of my 5e Planescape stuff has been removed from the DMs Guild.

Wasn't Planescape material against the original DMs Guild terms anyway? It was only "FR or no specific setting".


That's not all of what satyrs are about. Even I wouldn't play a satyr that way. Minds out of the gutter please. :)

Yeah, they also get really drunk and start fights.

Not unlike dwarves.

[Temperjoke]

MToF does make mentions of other settings, specifically Eberron, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance. So, it does make sense that this would be the next step. I'm not sure how well a campaign style book like Curse of Strahd would work for a larger setting, though. I mean, Barovia is a single land in a demiplane, not an entire world. Maybe this is just an attempt at appeasement that is only going to make more people upset in the long run.

[Snig]

I'd like to see a futuristic or post apocalyptic world. That would be awesome.

[JackPhoenix]

I'd like to see a futuristic or post apocalyptic world. That would be awesome.

Now that you mention it, there WAS a WotC survey asking people what *new* setting they'd like to see.

But for post-apocalyptic setting, there's Dark Sun. Futuristic is unlikely unless they release whole new game based on the same mechanics.

[mgshamster]

Wasn't Planescape material against the original DMs Guild terms anyway? It was only "FR or no specific setting".

Yes, but I was granted an exception. Last fall, that ceased and my material was removed.

[Beelzebubba]

Dark Sun, Planescape, Eberron

in no particular order

pleeeeeeeease

[Jama7301]

My first thought when i saw "new" was '"One we haven't published before" campaign setting. Couldn't read the article, so I didn't know if it mentioned that it was a pre-existing thing they'd be releasing.

[Kane0]

I'd really like to see the seed of a new setting or two. The old settings won't ever be given proper justice in the fans eyes (and I say that lovingly as a Planescape fan) and we already have the information we need to use them. A new setting or two would sate the players looking for more than the Sword Coast while also not causing flamewars among the ranks of the Old Guard.

Would also keep Mike 'idea man' Mearls busy with things that aren't mechanics. Look I love the guy and what he does, but even he admits that he's better at fluff than crunch.

[Anonymouswizard]

Way to get my hopes up Wizards, I was hoping for actual support for a decent setting. But no, one adventure per setting and then it's back to focusing on Forgotten Realms lore :smallannoyed:

[Pex]

Which explains the renewed interest in psionics. They want it finalized for Eberron for those who want to play Kalashtar in addition for general use.

[Unoriginal]

It could be Spelljammer.

[the_brazenburn]

It could be Spelljammer.

Possibly, with the giff and star spawn in MToF.

Personally, I'm hoping for Dark Sun or Dragonlance. Eberron isn't my thing, and Greyhawk is just too generic.

If they were going to give a Ravenloft that wasn't CoS, I'd be happy with that as well.

[KOLE]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

My entire tenure as both player and DM in D&D has been in homebrewed campaigns. Almost every player I personally consort with outside of this campaign ONLY cares about homebrew. I doubt 90% of the players I know personally could even name a setting, including Forgotten Realms.

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

[Kane0]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

My entire tenure as both player and DM in D&D has been in homebrewed campaigns. Almost every player I personally consort with outside of this campaign ONLY cares about homebrew. I doubt 90% of the players I know personally could even name a setting, including Forgotten Realms.

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

It lends variety for official play, as well as the creators that make adventures, novels, videogames, etc.

Imagine if we didn't have Icewind Dale, Planescape, NWN: SoU, DDO, etc because all we had to work with was the Sword Coast. It would probably feel a bit bland and overdone after a bit.

[Naanomi]

Which explains the renewed interest in psionics. They want it finalized for Eberron for those who want to play Kalashtar in addition for general use.
Could also be Darksun signaling... definetly need psionics in place for Athas

[Nifft]

I would love to see Planescape, and it's right in tune with the 2e-nostalgia-goggles that seem to cloud 5e publication choices.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

My entire tenure as both player and DM in D&D has been in homebrewed campaigns. Almost every player I personally consort with outside of this campaign ONLY cares about homebrew. I doubt 90% of the players I know personally could even name a setting, including Forgotten Realms.

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

Settings for me means new official content that is easier to get support from DMs. I don’t really care about the lore of the settings since I as well play in mostly homebrew campaigns. I just want new stuff.

[Mjolnirbear]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

My entire tenure as both player and DM in D&D has been in homebrewed campaigns. Almost every player I personally consort with outside of this campaign ONLY cares about homebrew. I doubt 90% of the players I know personally could even name a setting, including Forgotten Realms.

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

My homebrew skills are pitiful. I'm going to DM my first non-published story in a few months and a book would make it lots easier.

[Derpaligtr]

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/06/04/dungeons-and-dragons-fifth-edition-campaign-settings/

About f**king time!

...thought I'd share this with you, if you hadn't seen it yet.

A bit too late, I know plenty of people who have left 5e behind and are playing 3e and 4e so they don't have to transfer any info to a new system.

If they play it safe and go Eberron or Darksun... I'm going to have to pass. They did both of those to the ground already.

Some things that would get me actually to buy... Mahasarpa, Spelljammer, Hollow World (have a notable NPC named Admiral Byrd), or a brand new setting based around the something new.

[Smitty Wesson]

Options that come to mind:

1. A Sigil adventure
2. A Spelljamming adventure around Realmspace (possibly visiting elsewhere)
3. An anthology adventure like TftYP that dips into different settings for each adventure (with more attention than Yawning Portal paid to them)
4. A book that contains Psion + Artificer, races for Eberron and Dark Sun, and brief overviews of those settings
5. An anthology adventure with different settings that uses Sigil as a focal point
6. A race-focused book that includes fluff from various settings on the included races

I doubt that we get Eberron and Dark Sun in full until the Psion and Artificer are done, and I'm alright with that.

[dreast]

Considering that

a). Planescape’s planescape (i.e., the great wheel) is already the “official” setting of D&D, instead of FR’s old world tree cosmology,

b) Modrons are a thing, which, if we’re being reasonable, ONLY makes sense in a Planescape context,

c) Orcus has been pushed pretty hard as a demon lord... but did NOT make an appearance in the main body of OOtA (and the one appearance he did have clearly established the importance of a certain artifact...),

d) SIGIL is a thing,

e) As of MToF, playable gith are a thing,

f). The latest UA introduces a schema for hybrid creature-men, which makes me think a Tortle-style bauriaur release could be possible,

g) oh, yeah, Chris tweeted that if there were any setting he could update to 5e it would be Planescape...

If I were a betting man, I’d go very good odds that it’s Planescape and not unreasonable odds that it’s the full Great Modron March saga, updated a la Curse of Strahd (with probably optional cant rules. The barmy leatherheads!).

[Kane0]

Considering that

a). Planescape’s planescape (i.e., the great wheel) is already the “official” setting of D&D, instead of FR’s old world tree cosmology,

b) Modrons are a thing, which, if we’re being reasonable, ONLY makes sense in a Planescape context,

c) Orcus has been pushed pretty hard as a demon lord... but did NOT make an appearance in the main body of OOtA (and the one appearance he did have clearly established the importance of a certain artifact...),

d) SIGIL is a thing,

e) As of MToF, playable gith are a thing,

f). The latest UA introduces a schema for hybrid creature-men, which makes me think a Tortle-style bauriaur release could be possible,

g) oh, yeah, Chris tweeted that if there were any setting he could update to 5e it would be Planescape...

If I were a betting man, I’d go very good odds that it’s Planescape and not unreasonable odds that it’s the full Great Modron March saga, updated a la Curse of Strahd (with probably optional cant rules. The barmy leatherheads!).

Sounds like a reasonable wager.

[Regitnui]

I said this before, but Eberron is a natural mechanical expansion on FR, opening up magic items, two new classes, and being psionics 101: Use it or Not. Dark Sun is too radical a departure, what with basically cutting all warlocks and clerics off from their power and making wizards, sorcerers, ATs, EKs and every other arcane spellcasting class villains by default. I'd be disappointed in Planescape, because it's doubling down on the Great Wheel (for all its madness). Spelljammer would be hilarious and awesome, being it's D&D in "Space".

I personally don't care if the book is a partial adventure arc that briefly putters into planar portals and back onto FR. I want Eberron unlocked for DMsG, because that means I can find more adventure adaptions and material there, rather than "Forgotten" Realms, "Forgotten Realms" and Ravenloft.

[Smitty Wesson]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

My entire tenure as both player and DM in D&D has been in homebrewed campaigns. Almost every player I personally consort with outside of this campaign ONLY cares about homebrew. I doubt 90% of the players I know personally could even name a setting, including Forgotten Realms.

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

I think a major part of it is - some of the content people are most invested in is kinda "locked" to settings. I want to play a changeling. I want to play a thri-kreen. I want to play a hadozee. As a DM, I want to use Giant Space Hamsters and Living Spells and Warforged Titans and Moon Dragons. I want to battle the Sorcerer Kings and the Daelkyr.

And I don't think there will be any support for any of that until there are setting guides for Eberron and Dark Sun and Spelljammer. So it's partly a case of "I can't get the things I want most until I get This."

Yeah, there's homebrew. But the published material is a huge help when it's hard enough finding time to run the game, much less make most of the material I'd be using.

[Theodoxus]

I have it on very good authority that the next setting is a finalized Magic the Gathering multiverse.

This makes me sad. But crossing WotC's two biggest products is a no-brainer, despite what we, the fanbase, actually want.

[Nifft]

I have it on very good authority that the next setting is a finalized Magic the Gathering multiverse.

This makes me sad. But crossing WotC's two biggest products is a no-brainer, despite what we, the fanbase, actually want.

That might be good.

I kinda wish you weren't joking.

[Unoriginal]

If it's about the Great Modron March, maybe the adventure will take the PCs accross several different worlds.

[Luccan]

As a person with 0 MtG experience, what would the actual appeal of such a setting be?

Eberron gives us the "modernized" world of D&D: Still a land of adventure, kingdoms, and mystery, but with magic actually applied for the general populace with what's essentially a Magical Industrial Revolution. A chance for a few new races and classes.

Planescape would be a chance to really open up planar travel and non-Prime Material adventures (and also seems to take MtG's shtick as far as I know, what with all that planeswalking).

Spelljammer, of course, is D&D IN SPACE!

For Dark Sun, we have a psionics heavy, post apocalyptic, magic hostile setting; a significant departure from more traditional FR, Greyhawk, or even Eberron. Like Eberron, however, it gives a chance for new races and classes.

So what does MtG give us?

For my money, I'd expect either Planescape or Spelljammer and I lean towards the first.

[Finback]

The much-speculated reboot of the Great Modron March would be a great Planescape introductory adventure. Plus, of course, more ridiculous modrons.

Oooh that would be majestic.

My personal preference is Planescape, followed by Dark Sun.

[HolyDraconus]

As a person with 0 MtG experience, what would the actual appeal of such a setting be?

Eberron gives us the "modernized" world of D&D: Still a land of adventure, kingdoms, and mystery, but with magic actually applied for the general populace with what's essentially a Magical Industrial Revolution. A chance for a few new races and classes.

Planescape would be a chance to really open up planar travel and non-Prime Material adventures (and also seems to take MtG's shtick as far as I know, what with all that planeswalking).

Spelljammer, of course, is D&D IN SPACE!

For Dark Sun, we have a psionics heavy, post apocalyptic, magic hostile setting; a significant departure from more traditional FR, Greyhawk, or even Eberron. Like Eberron, however, it gives a chance for new races and classes.

So what does MtG give us?

For my money, I'd expect either Planescape or Spelljammer and I lean towards the first.

Depends on how deep in Magic they plan to go. Ravnica is basically Eberron in some ways, innistrahd is ravenloft, zendikar is dnd for magic, so that would be weird. Dominaria is greyhawk. Amonkhet is dark sun in some ways. Ixilan is dragonlance in some ways. Phrexia can be spelljammer.....hmmm... the more I think about it, that cross over would be.....hmm...

[Glorthindel]

Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I'm not sure I trust the current crop of developers with the keys to the settings. They seem a little too hell-bent on 'normalising' some elements across the multiverse (putting Elves in Barovia to make non-humans less shocking, giving a unified elven creation story, inserting the Raven Queen into the Realms, etc), and given that these seem to be being edged towards 'holidays in a setting' rather than full setting guides, I fear there will be major concessions made to ensure Adventurers League characters can be comfortably accommodated. And I think could lead to some horrible, horrible damage to these settings.

I wont list the amount of damage that could be done to Eberron by normalising how their many monsterous races behave, but Dragonlance's Draconians could be badly mangled to accomodate Dragonborn. Dark Sun would definitely suffer because I can't imagine them wanting to exclude every magic-using class, so no doubt some exception would be made to allow magic-using characters to explore the setting, which would run completely contrary to that setting.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I'm not sure I trust the current crop of developers with the keys to the settings. They seem a little too hell-bent on 'normalising' some elements across the multiverse (putting Elves in Barovia to make non-humans less shocking, giving a unified elven creation story, inserting the Raven Queen into the Realms, etc), and given that these seem to be being edged towards 'holidays in a setting' rather than full setting guides, I fear there will be major concessions made to ensure Adventurers League characters can be comfortably accommodated. And I think could lead to some horrible, horrible damage to these settings.

I wont list the amount of damage that could be done to Eberron by normalising how their many monsterous races behave, but Dragonlance's Draconians could be badly mangled to accomodate Dragonborn. Dark Sun would definitely suffer because I can't imagine them wanting to exclude every magic-using class, so no doubt some exception would be made to allow magic-using characters to explore the setting, which would run completely contrary to that setting.

Any "damage" that could happen, already happened. All the setting worlds have been confirmed to be in the same Material Plane, with each of the Crystal Spheres surrounding the worlds having its own rules (including about magic).

[RobD]

I actually wanna see something about Mystara. No one ever talks about it and I've never seen it used outside of some old arcade games. I have no idea what that setting is about and its mystery intrigues me.

[Regitnui]

Any "damage" that could happen, already happened. All the setting worlds have been confirmed to be in the same Material Plane, with each of the Crystal Spheres surrounding the worlds having its own rules (including about magic).

Not to open the door for this discussion and a certain rambling user, but no changes/"damage" have been made to any settings other that FR yet. A vague confirmation of something as high-level as that is not applicable to individual settings. "Damage" is removing defiling and preserving from Dark Sun so that AL playes who don't want to adapt can keep playing wizards and throwing around fireballs openly or making the elves of Eberron openly worship Correllon and Lolth. FR has been released. Every change to that setting has been made. All other settings remain in limbo.

[Unoriginal]

Not to open the door for this discussion and a certain rambling user, but no changes/"damage" have been made to any settings other that FR yet. A vague confirmation of something as high-level as that is not applicable to individual settings. "Damage" is removing defiling and preserving from Dark Sun so that AL playes who don't want to adapt can keep playing wizards and throwing around fireballs openly or making the elves of Eberron openly worship Correllon and Lolth. FR has been released. Every change to that setting has been made. All other settings remain in limbo.

This was addressed:


VULKOOR
Drow of the world of Eberron worship a scorpion-god named Vulkoor, which is their world's equivalent of Lolth. Vulkoor is often portrayed or envisioned as a giant scorpion or as a hybrid creature with the head, arms, and upper torso of a strong male drow and the lower body of a scorpion. The dark elves of Eberron revere scorpions, seeing spiders and other arachnids to be lesser servitors of Vulkoor. Many drow believe that Vulkoor and the Mockery (one of the group of evil deities known as the Dark Six) are one and the same. Drow from the jungle continent of Xen'drik ritually tattoo themselves using scorpion venom, leaving white scars etched into their skin.

Drow of other worlds rarely know of Vulkoor. Those who are familiar with his name consider him one of the weakest of the Dark Seldarine, a subordinate of Lolth who is disregarded by the other gods. Both visions of Vulkoor might be accurate, since Lolth seems to have little influence in Khyber but the drow there bear many similarities to the Lolth-worshiping drow of other realms throughout the multiverse.

I think it's safe to say they're not going to modify the settings willy-nilly just to accommodate characters.

In fact they're probably more likely to go the "fish out of water, and the surface is dangerous" road for AL characters showing up in a new world.

[the_brazenburn]

Not to open the door for this discussion and a certain rambling user, but no changes/"damage" have been made to any settings other that FR yet. A vague confirmation of something as high-level as that is not applicable to individual settings. "Damage" is removing defiling and preserving from Dark Sun so that AL playes who don't want to adapt can keep playing wizards and throwing around fireballs openly or making the elves of Eberron openly worship Correllon and Lolth. FR has been released. Every change to that setting has been made. All other settings remain in limbo.

No no no no no no no!

Cast Protection against Tetrasodium! Protection against Tetrasodium!

[Fire Tarrasque]

Spelljammer!
Though technically both Spelljammer and Greyhawk were discontinued back in 2nd AD&D.
Though maybe they were undiscontinued?? I don't know.
Black Sun would at least net us two new subclasses though. I'm fine with this.
Honestly I just want Spelljammer less for the setting and more to just have Spelljamming rules.

[Wilb]

I actually wanna see something about Mystara. No one ever talks about it and I've never seen it used outside of some old arcade games. I have no idea what that setting is about and its mystery intrigues me.

Well, I dream about Mystara being published again as much as I dread the effects of the touch of current Wotc on the setting. Get some info at the vaults of Pandius (http://pandius.com/) website, it is to Mystara what Canonfire is to Greyhawk.

[War_lord]

Not to open the door for this discussion and a certain rambling user, but no changes/"damage" have been made to any settings other that FR yet. A vague confirmation of something as high-level as that is not applicable to individual settings. "Damage" is removing defiling and preserving from Dark Sun so that AL playes who don't want to adapt can keep playing wizards and throwing around fireballs openly or making the elves of Eberron openly worship Correllon and Lolth. FR has been released. Every change to that setting has been made. All other settings remain in limbo.

They've made all the settings part of one consistent planescape-like cosmology. That's going to cause significant amounts of "damage" to the people who are super wedded to the idea that there's no gods in Eberron. Particularly since the poster-who-shall-not-be-named has a particular beef against anything remotely Lolth adjacent.

[Naanomi]

Meh, Darksun has no Gods and yet is part of the Great Wheel

[Unoriginal]

Meh, Darksun has no Gods and yet is part of the Great Wheel

Yes, because the Crystal Sphere around Athas in the Material Plane is like that.

[Regitnui]

They've made all the settings part of one consistent planescape-like cosmology. That's going to cause significant amounts of "damage" to the people who are super wedded to the idea that there's no gods in Eberron. Particularly since the poster-who-shall-not-be-named has a particular beef against anything remotely Lolth adjacent.

The problem with Eberron being in a Planescape cosmology is not the gods: The major theistic religion of Eberron wouldn't believe that what the FR people worship are gods; just supremely powerful outsiders. As an example, Pelor wouldn't be a god to anyone on Eberron. He'd be called a representative of Dol Arrah, the real god of sunrise and war in Eberron's perspective.

The problem lies in the fact that Eberron has a completely independent planar system. Each of the existing planes accounts for any type of outsider, and all of them interact with the Material Plane predictably to the point where planar influences can be charted like climate is in our world. There are very few direct correspondences between the Great Wheel and Eberron's orbiting planes, so it's nigh impossible to merge them without significant changes to one or the other. They do exist in the same Astral Plane, but Planescape doesn't focus on that.

Personally, I put my bets on Spelljammer linking the Material worlds together, just because it doesn't automatically lock every setting to the Great Wheel, offering more freedom if the designers build their own settings or want to semiofficially include Plane Shifts and the M:tG planes in the D&D Material/Astral Plane.

[Naanomi]

Yes, because the Crystal Sphere around Athas in the Material Plane is like that.
It wouldn’t be any harder to seal off Ebberon in (demiplane, Deep Astral, random other Planar Phenomenon) than it was Athas when it was integrated into Planescape



Personally, I put my bets on Spelljammer linking the Material worlds together, just because it doesn't automatically lock every setting to the Great Wheel, offering more freedom if the designers build their own settings or want to semiofficially include Plane Shifts and the M:tG planes in the D&D Material/Astral Plane.
Classically, Spelljammer is super explicitly travel around the Prime Material Plane... it wouldn’t get you to other Cosmologies like Ebberon/The Blind Eternities... Planescape has more routes to get you off the Great Wheel than Spelljammer does

[Regitnui]

It wouldn’t be any harder to seal off Ebberon in (demiplane, Deep Astral, random other Planar Phenomenon) than it was Athas when it was integrated into Planescape

Also why I expect Spelljammer to link settings. Planescape has to ask why every setting they plan to use isn't the same, while Spelljammer says "we went that little bit further and found 'X' crystal sphere". Settings with minimal or no planar interference work better in Spelljammer.

[Unoriginal]

It wouldn’t be any harder to seal off Ebberon in (demiplane, Deep Astral, random other Planar Phenomenon) than it was Athas when it was integrated into Planescape

Ebberon is "sealed" by being a particularly hard to reach world, with its own set of planar influences.




Classically, Spelljammer is super explicitly travel around the Prime Material Plane... it wouldn’t get you to other Cosmologies like Ebberon/The Blind Eternities... Planescape has more routes to get you off the Great Wheel than Spelljammer does

Ebberon is NOT in a separate cosmology anymore.

[Anonymouswizard]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

My entire tenure as both player and DM in D&D has been in homebrewed campaigns. Almost every player I personally consort with outside of this campaign ONLY cares about homebrew. I doubt 90% of the players I know personally could even name a setting, including Forgotten Realms.

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

I work ten hour shifts, on 4-5 days a week (most often four). Add in an hour each way, an hour for breakfast and dinner, and I have about 3 hours to myself every day I work. If I want to write an in depth setting it'll take me months, at the very least, while writing an adventure in a published setting can take me mere days to a couple of weeks.


It wouldn’t be any harder to seal off Ebberon in (demiplane, Deep Astral, random other Planar Phenomenon) than it was Athas when it was integrated into Planescape

Actually, Dark Sun fits the Great Wheel better because of how it's planes work.

Particularly because the plane it seems to be cut off from is the Astral. Characters and energy/information can still go from Athas to the Elemental Planes via the Ethereal, and back the other way, but they're unlikely to be the same Elemental planes as say Greyhawk's simply because then you could escape Athas. This somewhat deepens the Great Wheel mythology, in that the Astral is the connection between the Outer and Material planes, but each Material plane/crystal sphere theoretically has it's own Ethereal/Shadow/Elemental planes. Being cut off from the Astral has other effects than 'no gods', notably the souls of the dead go to the Ethereal (so you have to travel through the afterlife to find the Elemental planes), and arcane magic draws from ambient life force (and even Preservers only put most of it back). But still, the planes you can access are Great Wheel.

Eberron is different because it doesn't use Great Wheel planes at all. Sure, you could in theory merge the cosmologies, but why? Why can't Eberron just be it's own thing? I hate WotC with their attempts to merge the settings together, as much as I hate how TSR had Birthright dwarves worship Moradin (I love Birthright, but seriously? Can't make up a dwarven deity for the world, but can make up eleven human gods?).

[JackPhoenix]

I can see Spelljammer and Planescape merged into one, with spelljammers providing travel between different crystal spheres of Prime Material, while Great Wheel gets shared between them.

[Sception]

If we do see more settings in 5e, I would prefer ones with more divergent tones or weirder premises. Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Planescape; rather than more typical tolkeinian fantasy fair like Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Mystara, or Nentir Vale.

Unfortunately, the current development attitude of wanting everything they publish to use the same cosmology with the same metaphysics, the same classes, the same races with the same racial attitudes and dispositions, even the same gods in many cases, makes me feel like they'd be better off leaving old settings alone, and instead just publishing something entirely new, like Forgotten Realms 2, basically just Forgotten Realms but with all new people and places, so vets have something new to see and new players dont have 10 million pages of backstory to chew through to get up to speed.

It could still be something with a wildly different tone. Spooky forgotten realms, or ice age forgotten realms, or mostly ocean planet with some islands pirate themed forgotten realms.

.........

As for satyrs, I don't see why a D&D satyrs would necessarily need to ve any more drunken or randy than D&D centaurs, which also had that reputation in classical myth but don't in D&D land.

[Unoriginal]

the same races with the same racial attitudes and dispositions

This is not true.



As for satyrs, I don't see why a D&D satyrs would necessarily need to ve any more drunken or randy than D&D centaurs, which also had that reputation in classical myth but don't in D&D land.

Because the D&D satyrs are presented that way in the MM, while the Centaurs aren't?

Also D&D satyrs are Fey.

[Regitnui]

This is not true.

The last few books they published, especially Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, gives us a great amount of proof that they expect that all elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes are the same or extremely similar.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's not all of what satyrs are about. Even I wouldn't play a satyr that way. Minds out of the gutter please. :) Given my considerable familiarity with Greek mythology, I suggest that you review what a satyr is (as its archetype) and why it is the root word (Australians, please don't groan at that pun) of this medical/psychological condition:

sa·ty·ri·a·sis. [ˌsadəˈrīəsəs, ˌsādəˈrīəsəs] NOUN uncontrollable or excessive sexual desire in a man. Compare with nymphomania.

On-board for an "Athas invades Krynn mega-campaign! Sign me up.
Yeah, they also get really drunk and start fights. Not unlike dwarves. I was always under the impression that they were more lovers than fighters, but there's some fighting there. (Narnia's Mr Tumnus was very much bowdlerized as a satyr/faun ... even thought I think that Lewis was messing about with word roots ... tumescence is somewhat close ... ).

a). Planescape’s planescape (i.e., the great wheel) is already the “official” setting of D&D, instead of FR’s old world tree cosmology,
b) Modrons are a thing, which, if we’re being reasonable, ONLY makes sense in a Planescape context,
c) Orcus has been pushed pretty hard as a demon lord... but did NOT make an appearance in the main body of OOtA (and the one appearance he did have clearly established the importance of a certain artifact...),
d) SIGIL is a thing,
e) As of MToF, playable gith are a thing,
f). The latest UA introduces a schema for hybrid creature-men, which makes me think a Tortle-style bauriaur release could be possible,
g) oh, yeah, Chris tweeted that if there were any setting he could update to 5e it would be Planescape...

If I were a betting man, I’d go very good odds that it’s Planescape and not unreasonable odds that it’s the full Great Modron March saga, updated
I cannot bet against you, sir.

I have it on very good authority that the next setting is a finalized Magic the Gathering multiverse. This makes me sad. But crossing WotC's two biggest products is a no-brainer, despite what we, the fanbase, actually want. I'll order a few gross of airsickness bags, to help folks out with the puking.

As a person with 0 MtG experience, what would the actual appeal of such a setting be? So what does MtG give us? Reason to puke. :smallcool:

All said and done, I'd rather Dark Sun but the pointers toward planescape are pretty well argued. :smallcool:

[Naanomi]

Particularly because the plane it seems to be cut off from is the Astral. Characters and energy/information can still go from Athas to the Elemental Planes via the Ethereal, and back the other way, but they're unlikely to be the same Elemental planes as say Greyhawk's simply because then you could escape Athas. This somewhat deepens the Great Wheel mythology, in that the Astral is the connection between the Outer and Material planes, but each Material plane/crystal sphere theoretically has it's own Ethereal/Shadow/Elemental planes. Being cut off from the Astral has other effects than 'no gods', notably the souls of the dead go to the Ethereal (so you have to travel through the afterlife to find the Elemental planes), and arcane magic draws from ambient life force (and even Preservers only put most of it back). But still, the planes you can access are Great Wheel.
Planes haven’t had their own Inner Planes since very early on 2e; and plenty of Gods shares between worlds live there... though they have their own Border Ethereal. Athas only has access to the Inner Planes via (almost always) one way Elemental Vortices.

Note that it is not technically impossible to access Athas (either way), just very challenging... Gith got there from Astral Ships that crashed; and there are NPCs from Athas in Sigil (and of course in the Planar Sphere in Baldur’s Gate 2)

Also, in classic Spelljammer, things are totally transparent with Planescape’s Great Wheel... you cant travel across the Prime Material to get to Ebberon (assuming it’s own cosmology) because it wouldn’t be on the Prime at all... the system of Primes and their Crystal Spheres are all part of the Great Wheel Cosmology

[EvilAnagram]

Moving the conversation away from deep dives into contradictory information about a cosmological system that has never made much sense...

What interests me is how they seem to be going about it. According to the link in the OP, they're approaching it in the same way they're approaching treating the new adventure book as a guide for urban adventures as well as a standalone campaign. That suggests that they're going to set adventures in these locations to explore how they operate and act as a guide. This is a pretty cool idea. One I've heard batted around from time to time, but cool nonetheless. Dark Sun would be perfect for this approach, and I can see capturing the time of Greyhawk, too.

What other settings would go well with this approach?

[Beleriphon]

It wouldn’t be any harder to seal off Ebberon in (demiplane, Deep Astral, random other Planar Phenomenon) than it was Athas when it was integrated into Planescape


Classically, Spelljammer is super explicitly travel around the Prime Material Plane... it wouldn’t get you to other Cosmologies like Ebberon/The Blind Eternities... Planescape has more routes to get you off the Great Wheel than Spelljammer does

Depends, MToF calls Eberron out a few times, in particular in the Elf section when referring to previous elven empires, and how humans seem to take over afterwards. The reference is more about humans waged a war against itself. Which implies that planar travel to Eberron is possible, although the route is difficult at best.


Moving the conversation away from deep dives into contradictory information about a cosmological system that has never made much sense...

What interests me is how they seem to be going about it. According to the link in the OP, they're approaching it in the same way they're approaching treating the new adventure book as a guide for urban adventures as well as a standalone campaign. That suggests that they're going to set adventures in these locations to explore how they operate and act as a guide. This is a pretty cool idea. One I've heard batted around from time to time, but cool nonetheless. Dark Sun would be perfect for this approach, and I can see capturing the time of Greyhawk, too.

What other settings would go well with this approach?

Eberron would work although probably needs a bigger investment if only because it does have a few unique setting features like the Dragonmarks that require some explanation. Birthright and Dragonlance of course work nicely since they aren't that far off of the default presented I the core books.

[Nifft]

Depends, MToF calls Eberron out a few times, in particular in the Elf section when referring to previous elven empires, and how humans seem to take over afterwards. The reference is more about humans waged a war against itself. Which implies that planar travel to Eberron is possible, although the route is difficult at best.

I think that in Eberron, the continental empire which humans took over was previously run by orcs & goblinoids.

Elves fled from their giant masters and built a civilization on an island, which humans never conquered.

Eberron has ancient imperial ruins, but they're not elven.

[Beleriphon]

I think that in Eberron, the continental empire which humans took over was previously run by orcs & goblinoids.

Elves fled from their giant masters and built a civilization on an island, which humans never conquered.

Eberron has ancient imperial ruins, but they're not elven.

Oh for sure, it was one of the sidebars "written" by Mordy where he's musing about what will supplant humans as humans seem to have supplanted elven empires. Its a kind of and humans seem to take over elven ruins after a war, except in Eberron where humanity just waged a massive war against itself, with the implication being he's wondering what comes next.

[Nifft]

Oh for sure, it was one of the sidebars "written" by Mordy where he's musing about what will supplant humans as humans seem to have supplanted elven empires. Its a kind of and humans seem to take over elven ruins after a war, except in Eberron where humanity just waged a massive war against itself, with the implication being he's wondering what comes next.

Oh, I misunderstood. Thanks.

Well, at least Eberron got a mention. That's nice, I guess.

[Unoriginal]

Oh, I misunderstood. Thanks.

Well, at least Eberron got a mention. That's nice, I guess.

It got more than "a" mention.

[Beleriphon]

It got more than "a" mention.

It does, there's a few references to the setting throughout the book. Largely as a reference to it being different than normal expecations. In fact the whole explanation of the elven life cycle even works for Eberron, if you take into account that Eberron elves don't follow Corellon and as such they preserve their honoured elders as the Undying Court.

[Naanomi]

Depends, MToF calls Eberron out a few times, in particular in the Elf section when referring to previous elven empires, and how humans seem to take over afterwards. The reference is more about humans waged a war against itself. Which implies that planar travel to Eberron is possible, although the route is difficult at best.
Which (from a 'Great Wheel Cosmology' perspective) has always been true... previously through the Deep Shadow, some Astral phenomenon, skimming through the Far Realm (according to 4e) and a couple of unique locations/situations/magical rituals, the direct action of the Eldest Ones... getting from one Cosmology to another was a challenge but not impossible

[EvilAnagram]

It got more than "a" mention.

There are two possibilities that exist in a Schrodinger state for me, someone who has not read the book in question in very much detail.

The first possibility is that the book has an extensive amount of Eberron material. Perhaps there is a whole section dedicated to exceptional worlds that do not follow the generalizations made in the lore section. Or maybe there are several pages worth of sidebars and notations that provide a good bit of detail for anyone who wants to apply 5e material to Eberron. Maybe there's a small main section describing Eberron as an outlier and several sidebars throughout the book, adding up to a sizeable chunk of interesting content. As long as there is a sizeable amount of content, what you posted might have some value.

On the other hand, the second possibility is that there are a handful of scattered paragraphs that collectively could not fill two pages. In that case, you're being pedantic. Nifft is clearly indicating that there seems to be a minimal amount of Eberron content, and five paragraphs scattered over 300 pages is clearly a minimal amount of content. Taking a pedantic stance is just poisoning the conversation with unhelpful and dishonest distractions meant to stroke one's own ego.

Like I said, I don't have the information necessary to make that distinction, but if you'd bothered to post anything more than a vague allusion devoid of context, perhaps the conversation might have been enriched. Or not.

[JackPhoenix]

The only mention of Eberron in MToF is the paragraph about Vulkoor already posted in this thread. "Eberron" is used 2 times in the whole book, with both uses being in that paragraph.

As for elves, we know their origin in Eberron: Eladrin from Thelanis (immortal outsiders/fey, which contradicts the "elves were mortal after spreading out through the planes" from MToF") were captured by giants, and experimented on to create elven slave race. Drow were created by similar experimentation later, when elven rebellion happened and giants wanted someone to hunt their former slaves. You could, maybe, with squinted eyes, link the Eladrin to Corellon, but nothing beyond that fits the MToF lore.

[War_lord]

There are two possibilities that exist in a Schrodinger state for me, someone who has not read the book in question in very much detail.

The first possibility is that the book has an extensive amount of Eberron material. Perhaps there is a whole section dedicated to exceptional worlds that do not follow the generalizations made in the lore section. Or maybe there are several pages worth of sidebars and notations that provide a good bit of detail for anyone who wants to apply 5e material to Eberron. Maybe there's a small main section describing Eberron as an outlier and several sidebars throughout the book, adding up to a sizeable chunk of interesting content. As long as there is a sizeable amount of content, what you posted might have some value.

On the other hand, the second possibility is that there are a handful of scattered paragraphs that collectively could not fill two pages. In that case, you're being pedantic. Nifft is clearly indicating that there seems to be a minimal amount of Eberron content, and five paragraphs scattered over 300 pages is clearly a minimal amount of content. Taking a pedantic stance is just poisoning the conversation with unhelpful and dishonest distractions meant to stroke one's own ego.

Like I said, I don't have the information necessary to make that distinction, but if you'd bothered to post anything more than a vague allusion devoid of context, perhaps the conversation might have been enriched. Or not.

In those few paragraphs it asserts that all elves in the multiverse are ultimately descended from Corellon and Lolth, that any sphere that doesn't have Drow is fated to have the elves split along those lines eventually, and refers to Vulkoor as a minor servitor of Lolth. None of that is minor in its impact on every officially mentioned setting. In fact it actively debunks any setting that proposes any other origin for Elves.

The muted response to MToF seems to be caused by people not really grasping the full implications of the lore section. That is, everything in it is planescape style trans-setting assertions.


As for elves, we know their origin in Eberron: Eladrin from Thelanis (immortal outsiders/fey, which contradicts the "elves were mortal after spreading out through the planes" from MToF") were captured by giants, and experimented on to create elven slave race. Drow were created by similar experimentation later, when elven rebellion happened and giants wanted someone to hunt their former slaves.

That has now been retconned, I'm braced for salt.

[Unoriginal]

In those few paragraphs it asserts that all elves in the multiverse are ultimately descended from Corellon and Lolth, that any sphere that doesn't have Drow is fated to have the elves split along those lines eventually, and refers to Vulkoor as a minor servitor of Lolth. None of that is minor in its impact on every officially mentioned setting. In fact it actively debunks any setting that proposes any other origin for Elves.

Actually, the book says "Vulkoor is the main god for Eberron's drows, who have never heard of Lolth and don't seem influenced by her outside of physical similarities. Outside of Eberron, people only know Vulkoor as a minor servant of Lolth. The truth is unclear."

As for Mordenkainen's opinion on the splitting of the elves, it's just that: his opinion (albeit an informed one). He also think Driz'zt is still a bad guy and that Halfling's luck is a sham.

[Anonymouswizard]

In those few paragraphs it asserts that all elves in the multiverse are ultimately descended from Corellon and Lolth, that any sphere that doesn't have Drow is fated to have the elves split along those lines eventually, and refers to Vulkoor as a minor servitor of Lolth. None of that is minor in its impact on every officially mentioned setting. In fact it actively debunks any setting that proposes any other origin for Elves.

Which is boring.

As I said, I hate WotC's attempts at homogenisation. While I am using the old default fluff for their origin (specifically there was a bard a few generations back, they visited Baator for a holiday...), that's because I like that fluff over the newer 'ancestors made a pact' origin. But hey, both origins are cool, let's use them both, just in different worlds! Let's have world where dwarves are the result of thousands of years of offspring between humans and gnomes! Where elves are those with the blood of fey within them! Where goblins literally appeared one day and aren't quite sure why! Where elves and dwarves are the descendants of the same ancient species! Where Gnomes are halflings who decided to leave the fields for the forests!

Why can't we have lots of origins for nonhumans (and even humans) in D&D? Why can't we have nonhumans worshipping different gods in different settings. Sure, go to another world and the humans are different, but the elves are completely the same.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go and prepare a Birthright campaign. It's dwarves tend to keep their beards short and neat.

[Fire Tarrasque]

I mean... Dark Sun has a bit of an excuse to not be normal. Most races on dark sun don't originate there. Humans, dwarves, elves, EVERYTHING BESIDES HALFLINGS actually. And if a human is placed into this post apocalyptic world, it would respond relatively weirdly.
It also leads to the best thing ever, the halfling master race.

[Naanomi]

I mean... Dark Sun has a bit of an excuse to not be normal. Most races on dark sun don't originate there. Humans, dwarves, elves, EVERYTHING BESIDES HALFLINGS actually. And if a human is placed into this post apocalyptic world, it would respond relatively weirdly.
It also leads to the best thing ever, the halfling master race.
Even Halflings are a mutation of the original race of Athas (and there is some debate as to if pterrans, kreen, and giants are possible natives as well)

[Derpaligtr]

Even Halflings are a mutation of the original race of Athas (and there is some debate as to if pterrans, kreen, and giants are possible natives as well)

I like to think of Athas as the Australia of D&D. A long time ago some gods left a lot of criminals on a planet and said "enjoy prison"...

If the gods ever came back they might be all like "Wait, what?? How did you survive?".

[Naanomi]

I like to think of Athas as the Australia of D&D. A long time ago some gods left a lot of criminals on a planet and said "enjoy prison"...

If the gods ever came back they might be all like "Wait, what?? How did you survive?".
Apart from the tales of elves, there isn’t a lot of evidence that suggests the Gods ever had much (if any) presence on Athas... even the most ancient histories have basically weird Druid sects as the only religion of note

[Derpaligtr]

Apart from the tales of elves, there isn’t a lot of evidence that suggests the Gods ever had much (if any) presence on Athas... even the most ancient histories have basically weird Druid sects as the only religion of note

Oh, I don't care about that. They can ret-con anything they like.

Hell, might actually make the setting something fresh instead of just beating a dead horse again and again.

Darksun was an awesome setting for 4e, since it has been a while, but if they go back to it again so soon (without exploring other settings first) it will be a real shame if they don't spice things up in a huge way.

[Naanomi]

Oh, I don't care about that. They can ret-con anything they like.

Hell, might actually make the setting something fresh instead of just beating a dead horse again and again.

Darksun was an awesome setting for 4e, since it has been a while, but if they go back to it again so soon (without exploring other settings first) it will be a real shame if they don't spice things up in a huge way.
I didn’t like 4es handling of Athas... shoehorning in the Dawn War didn’t appeal to me

[furby076]

Possibly, with the giff and star spawn in MToF.

Personally, I'm hoping for Dark Sun or Dragonlance. Eberron isn't my thing, and Greyhawk is just too generic.

If they were going to give a Ravenloft that wasn't CoS, I'd be happy with that as well.

i so miss dragonlance and darksun. only once played a tiny bit of darksun. overall, just loved the stories as a kid. I played eberron for 10 years; was a lot of fun, but i could go back for some other stuff

[Regitnui]

The only mention of Eberron in MToF is the paragraph about Vulkoor already posted in this thread. "Eberron" is used 2 times in the whole book, with both uses being in that paragraph.

As for elves, we know their origin in Eberron: Eladrin from Thelanis (immortal outsiders/fey, which contradicts the "elves were mortal after spreading out through the planes" from MToF") were captured by giants, and experimented on to create elven slave race. Drow were created by similar experimentation later, when elven rebellion happened and giants wanted someone to hunt their former slaves. You could, maybe, with squinted eyes, link the Eladrin to Corellon, but nothing beyond that fits the MToF lore.

Like the poorly done imposition of Baator, lore and all, onto Eberron in 4e, this is probably what gives us as Eberron fans the most worry. The Blood War material goes to Shavarath once you add angels, the gith survive mostly unscathed (the source creature for mind flayers, maybe only a few thousand in number, don't have red dragons), and the halfling and gnome chapters are inoffensive enough that I doubt most FR/Greyhawk players remember any of that. Writing the Lolth-Corellon conflict onto the already perfectly logical and cohesive elven history in Eberron is like rewriting the history of Faerun dwarves to be atheistic evolved moles who live happy lives uninfluenced by any gods or outsiders because they don't believe in them or their powers.

[Chaosmancer]

You know, reading through threads like this makes me wish for something completely new. Like that water-world idea someone posted. That would be awesome.

Not that I've got any issues with Eberron itself (it's got some cool ideas I've heard) but it gets a little tedious to read people complaining about the lore of the old days and how WoTC is ruining perfection by including or not including or thinking about including or most likely not including whatever.

I'm not new to forums and these debates, but with how incessant I see these arguments getting I could see new players researching an new Eberron book and deciding it isn't worth the trouble because it's just a fight between diehard fans about whose lore is better.

[Regitnui]

I'm not new to forums and these debates, but with how incessant I see these arguments getting I could see new players researching an new Eberron book and deciding it isn't worth the trouble because it's just a fight between diehard fans about whose lore is better.

The vast majority of Eberron fans just want the setting unlocked for DMsG, where we can write and update our own stuff and leave WotC's design decisions out of the question. If we have to sit through Lolth and Corellon having a fight in Xen'drik while Bane and Umberlee make googly eyes at each other over an Ikea-made bed sent to them by Vecna as a relationship builder while the psionic denizens of Sarlona fight the ancient Draconians of Khyberland to get that, then OK.

[Trickshaw]

You know, reading through threads like this makes me wish for something completely new. Like that water-world idea someone posted. That would be awesome.

Not that I've got any issues with Eberron itself (it's got some cool ideas I've heard) but it gets a little tedious to read people complaining about the lore of the old days and how WoTC is ruining perfection by including or not including or thinking about including or most likely not including whatever.

I'm not new to forums and these debates, but with how incessant I see these arguments getting I could see new players researching an new Eberron book and deciding it isn't worth the trouble because it's just a fight between diehard fans about whose lore is better.

I don't play Adventure League nor will I ever, it doesn't feel like real D&D to me. I get it's appeal for some, more power to 'em it's just not my cup of tea. So, what's that have to do with your post?

Well, I personally don't understand how people who DON'T play Adventure League can't play what they want to play with 5e's current iteration. If you Adventure League, fine. Ok, you gotta deal with the books your dealt. But if you don't... what's stopping people from playing whatever the f*ck they want? My groups play a setting that I've developed (with collaboration) over the last 20 years but on occasion we play Forgotten Realms. And when we do play Forgotten realms we don't play the current catastrophe. No sir, don't think so. We play pre Spell Plague. Circa late 90's early 2000's FR.

The FR Bible (https://books.google.com/books/about/Forgotten_Realms_Campaign_Setting.html?id=6SCnSQAA CAAJ&source=kp_cover) as far as I'm concerned.

So if people wanna play Eberron, the only thing stopping them is the limits of their ingenuity. Unless they Adventure League. But if they don't, to quote a Vogon, "I've no sympathy at all."

[Gwalchavad]

The vast majority of Eberron fans just want the setting unlocked for DMsG, where we can write and update our own stuff and leave WotC's design decisions out of the question. If we have to sit through Lolth and Corellon having a fight in Xen'drik while Bane and Umberlee make googly eyes at each other over an Ikea-made bed sent to them by Vecna as a relationship builder while the psionic denizens of Sarlona fight the ancient Draconians of Khyberland to get that, then OK.

I... would totally buy that book!

[Knaight]

I’d like to ask a question, and I hope it doesn’t end in any kind of flame war. Please understand I ask sincerely and not condescendingly.

Why do people care so much about published settings?

...

I understand settings carry a theme, and some of them are radical departures from typical D&D tropes, such as Dark Sun, but rather than waiting for WOTC to give you a limited campaign book or something lame like SCAG, why not do that theme yourself?

Settings don't just carry a theme - they generally have several themes, motifs, etc. and a whole lot of material built up for them. People want to play in a cool setting, and published settings can fit this niche - while I'm not particularly impressed with anything WotC's produced you can see this in the whole host of setting specific non-D&D games, at least some of which are likely to come across as really cool to at least somebody (mostly because there's just more shots to take there, partially because there's way more variety). Heck, there are a few games notorious for terrible mechanics among their own player bases played almost entirely for the setting, starting with Exalted.

If you happen to really like particular types of fantasy, D&D settings can fit that niche too.

[Millstone85]

I am interested in seeing Spelljammer adapted to the new Great Wheel, particularly in regard to the Echo Planes.

Admittedly, I mostly want to know if it matches my interpretation/headcanon:
* The way the PHB describes "the worlds and landscapes of these planes" (p300), I think there would effectively be fey/shadow versions of Greyspace, Krynnspace, and Realmspace.
* After reading the description of the nightwalker in MToF, I am once again convinced that the Echo Planes are meant to connect the Material to the Energy Planes. Trying to fly through the Echo Planes' equivalent of the Phlogiston would probably expose you to massive amounts of radiant or necrotic energy.
* Some worlds, such as the one of Nentir Vale, would have a weaker connection to the Astral, with the effect of making the Shadowfell their main afterlife. The Raven Queen would often be regarded as a goddess on such worlds.

[Regitnui]

I am interested in seeing Spelljammer adapted to the new Great Wheel, particularly in regard to the Echo Planes.

Admittedly, I mostly want to know if it matches my interpretation/headcanon:
* The way the PHB describes "the worlds and landscapes of these planes" (p300), I think there would effectively be fey/shadow versions of Greyspace, Krynnspace, and Realmspace.
* After reading the description of the nightwalker in MToF, I am once again convinced that the Echo Planes are meant to connect the Material to the Energy Planes. Trying to fly through the Echo Planes' equivalent of the Phlogiston would probably expose you to massive amounts of radiant or necrotic energy.
* Some worlds, such as the one of Nentir Vale, would have a weaker connection to the Astral, with the effect of making the Shadowfell their main afterlife. The Raven Queen would often be regarded as a goddess on such worlds.

If this means that we can call it "Dragonspace", I'll be on board with this plan. Since, you know, Eberron has the dragons as all-powerful meddlers instead of the funeral-plan insurance salesmen (and -women) on FR. And the world is made by and of Primordial Dragons.

[Luccan]

The way I see it, it's like fan fiction vs a canon book. Maybe the fan fiction can be more true to established lore than an official book. But personally, I'd prefer an author stick to their own established canon as much as possible, rather than have to rely on the decisions of fans to represent that. I want settings to be the unique things that they are, not changed because suddenly the author thinks they're Stephen King and everything they write has to be connected.

[samcifer]

TBH about satyrs, I DID play a 4e satyr rogue who was horribly disappointed after buying a rapier because it didn't do what he thought it sounded like it was supposed to do.

[Derpaligtr]

TBH about satyrs, I DID play a 4e satyr rogue who was horribly disappointed after buying a rapier because it didn't do what he thought it sounded like it was supposed to do.

Me: I'm appalled! Appalled, I say!


Also Me: https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0HluN8PywCl6Hckg/giphy.gif

[JackPhoenix]

If this means that we can call it "Dragonspace", I'll be on board with this plan. Since, you know, Eberron has the dragons as all-powerful meddlers instead of the funeral-plan insurance salesmen (and -women) on FR. And the world is made by and of Primordial Dragons.

I've seen "Shardspace" being commonly used for Eberron in newer (homebrew, obviously) Spelljammer material. After all, most planes have dragons, and in many, they are important, but dragonSHARDS are unique to Eberron. Also refers to Ring of Siberys, as the most distinctive element of Eberron's orbit.

[Regitnui]

I've seen "Shardspace" being commonly used for Eberron in newer (homebrew, obviously) Spelljammer material. After all, most planes have dragons, and in many, they are important, but dragonSHARDS are unique to Eberron. Also refers to Ring of Siberys, as the most distinctive element of Eberron's orbit.

That is also very approved. Anywhere were I can look at 5e or recent Spelljammer material in probable preparation?

[Millstone85]

I've seen "Shardspace" being commonly used for Eberron in newer (homebrew, obviously) Spelljammer material. After all, most planes have dragons, and in many, they are important, but dragonSHARDS are unique to Eberron.It would also avoid Dragonspace being mistaken as another name for Krynnspace, what with Krynn being the world of Dragonlance.


Also refers to Ring of Siberys, as the most distinctive element of Eberron's orbit.Speaking of a distinctive element in orbit, it is tempting to give Shardspace a physical manifestation of the Orrery, like neighboring planets each entirely covered by a manifest zone.

[Chaosmancer]

I don't play Adventure League nor will I ever, it doesn't feel like real D&D to me. I get it's appeal for some, more power to 'em it's just not my cup of tea. So, what's that have to do with your post?

With my post? Sounds like pretty much nothing.

I'm with you on the idea that if people don't like the lore changes they should just use the old lore.

And I agree with the guy who said all they are waiting for is Eberron to get DMs Guild approved so they can get the mechanics and such they want.

My post was just frustration over the near constant litany of
"WoTC destroyed this"
"5e homogenized that"
"4e wrecked this, that and the other thing"
"It was perfect when xxx wrote yyy and it ruins the entire setting if you ignore zzz as well"

It just drives me a little nuts that it overshadows and overwhelms every other part of any conversation about settings

[Speely]

What I would love:

Spelljammer and Planescape to open it (way) up, then a new setting, or a BIG shakeup of a previous one (Dark Sun would be my choice.) Once you have Spelljammer and Planescape going, you can use those to go in any direction.

Would prefer a totally different setting, though. Like (for example) an original urban fantasy setting.

[Derpaligtr]

What I would love:

Spelljammer and Planescape to open it (way) up, then a new setting, or a BIG shakeup of a previous one (Dark Sun would be my choice.) Once you have Spelljammer and Planescape going, you can use those to go in any direction.

Would prefer a totally different setting, though. Like (for example) an original urban fantasy setting.

How about... Hallow World but set on real earth. Once Admiral Byrd found the Hallow World magic was released.

We can fudge the dates a bit and say that technology stopped in the 1880's or whatever BUT magic became a thing. We now have the outer world to explore and this inner fantasy world. Maybe WWI happened, but with magic and other stuff.

Look up Admiral Byrd a d the Hallow Earth theory, good stuff, even better than thefinlandconspiracy...

[Naanomi]

How about... Hallow World but set on real earth. Once Admiral Byrd found the Hallow World magic was released.

We can fudge the dates a bit and say that technology stopped in the 1880's or whatever BUT magic became a thing. We now have the outer world to explore and this inner fantasy world. Maybe WWI happened, but with magic and other stuff.

Look up Admiral Byrd a d the Hallow Earth theory, good stuff, even better than thefinlandconspiracy...
Eh... lots of other game systems do ‘alternate fantasy history’; I’m not sure DnD needs to go there

[Derpaligtr]

Eh... lots of other game systems do ‘alternate fantasy history’; I’m not sure DnD needs to go there

A lot of games do tolkien fantasy and it's getting pretty stale. Need to shake things up a bit.

[Speely]

How about... Hallow World but set on real earth. Once Admiral Byrd found the Hallow World magic was released.

We can fudge the dates a bit and say that technology stopped in the 1880's or whatever BUT magic became a thing. We now have the outer world to explore and this inner fantasy world. Maybe WWI happened, but with magic and other stuff.

Look up Admiral Byrd a d the Hallow Earth theory, good stuff, even better than thefinlandconspiracy...

Sure. Ship it! I would be interested, but that might be a bit niche for modern D&D.

To play along, though, how would you build Byrd? I am thinking Oath of Conquest paladin, but that's just a hot take.

[Derpaligtr]

Sure. Ship it! I would be interested, but that might be a bit niche for modern D&D.

To play along, though, how would you build Byrd? I am thinking Oath of Conquest paladin, but that's just a hot take.

NPC, sailor background. Probably CR 1/2
- ish

[Unoriginal]

A lot of games do tolkien fantasy and it's getting pretty stale. Need to shake things up a bit.

D&D doesn't do Tolkien Fantasy.

It's not because there's Elves and Dwarves that it's Tolkien.

[Knaight]

D&D doesn't do Tolkien Fantasy.

It's not because there's Elves and Dwarves that it's Tolkien.

It does do Tolkien-knockoff Fantasy though. Aesthetics without theme, and also without all the subtleties of the aesthetics.

[Unoriginal]

It does do Tolkien-knockoff Fantasy though. Aesthetics without theme, and also without all the subtleties of the aesthetics.

No. It has its own themes, and it shares some of the aesthetics.

Yes, it was inspired by Tolkien. And by Howard, Lovecraft and dozens of others.

One of the great things about the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is that it makes clear the different species have their own identity. No, the Dwarves aren't the Movie!LotR Dwarves, and even less the Book!LotR ones. And they're not Warhammer's Dwarfs or Warcraft's Dwarves either.

I find it kind of funny how little respect many D&D players have for D&D as a medium.

[Regitnui]

I find it kind of funny how little respect many D&D players have for D&D as a medium.

D&D is the system. There is no "D&D dwarf". There are "Dwarves experienced through D&D", but let's be fair, 90% of people play a dwarf thinking of Gimli or Thorin. If you want to discuss how Forgotten Realms dwarves aren't LotR dwarves, you have a case.

[Unoriginal]

D&D is the system. There is no "D&D dwarf".

Yes, there is. They got a whole chapter in the latest book, and and got described in the PHB along with other D&D versions of playable species.

D&D HAS a default lore, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise. It's not just "the system".



but let's be fair, 90% of people play a dwarf thinking of Gimli or Thorin.

That's because the movie version of Gimli is the "typical pop-culture dwarf" and the one of Thorin is the "handsome broody pop-culture dwarf", rather than how they were in the books.



If you want to discuss how Forgotten Realms dwarves aren't LotR dwarves, you have a case.

For the ****ing last time, Forgotten Realms is NOT D&D's default setting.


But thanks for examplifying my point about the lack of respect thing, I guess.

[Arkhios]

I find it kind of funny how little respect many D&D players have for D&D as a medium.

D&D is the system. There is no "D&D dwarf". There are "Dwarves experienced through D&D", but let's be fair, 90% of people play a dwarf thinking of Gimli or Thorin. If you want to discuss how Forgotten Realms dwarves aren't LotR dwarves, you have a case.

I have to say that I agree with Unoriginal. I'd sign my name under that statement any day. People playing D&D seem to forget that D&D is 40+ ****ing years old game. Without D&D, there might not be Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, and definitely no Greyhawk. Show some respect. Yes. D&D is the system. But it's also the lifeblood of those settings.


But thanks for examplifying my point about the lack of respect thing, I guess.

Exactly.

PS. on the matter of dwarves in fantasy, I guess I fall into that 10% who doesn't draw inspiration from the mainstream Movie!LotR dwarves. My absolute favorite dwarves are Bruenor, Pwent, Pikel, and Athrogate from Forgotten Realms, and Flint from Dragonlance. Gimli, both in movie and the book, is a little boring, and while Thorin and the others have been well established as dwarves, they're way too thin so that I'd see them as real dwarves. The way I see dwarves, they are about as wide as they are tall. Not some shrinked humans. That's what halflings are for? :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

I find it kind of funny how little respect many D&D players have for D&D as a medium.
I'm going to object to the term "D&D player" here. I play RPGs, which generally means putting up with D&D some amount regardless of how much you actually like it. In my case I have to put up with it fairly infrequently, and I don't think it's a bad system, but this position does remove the sort of obligation to suck up to it and treat it as a masterpiece above criticism that shows up in actual D&D player communities.


Yes, there is. They got a whole chapter in the latest book, and and got described in the PHB along with other D&D versions of playable species.

D&D HAS a default lore, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise. It's not just "the system".
It absolutely has default lore - and the default lore looks much the same as a lot of other cheap knockoffs. Part of that is that a fair number of those are ripping of D&D more than anything else, part of it is that D&D's innovation was largely structural. The setting is incredibly derivative, the genre is incredibly derivative, the mechanics are incredibly derivative (first from Chainmail, then from following the rest of the industry) - it's the core structure of an RPG and the foundation of a new medium that was original.

A lot is owed to D&D because of that, but that stroke of genius doesn't necessitate pretending that the rest of it is similarly revolutionary.

[Zombimode]

Yes, there is. They got a whole chapter in the latest book, and and got described in the PHB along with other D&D versions of playable species.

D&D HAS a default lore, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise. It's not just "the system".

This statement is obviously in line what the current D&D Designers are thinking.
It contradicts the system-Setting diametry that was in place for alle D&D Editions up to and including 3.5. I'm not knowledgeable enough about 4e to make a statement how Settings were handled in 4e.

Now, that 5e comes with a default lore is not a Problem by itself, it is just a design decision. Problemes arrise if this new Default Lore is superimposed on already established settings, like FR, Eberron and Greyhawk.
This and the tendency to (seemingly thoughtlessly) unify everything is what some People find questionable.

Different settings exist for different reasons, have their own themes and goals and do not neccessarily work the same.

Saying that FR and Greyhawk are part of the same greater Planescape Cosmos? While both settings have their own indentity, they are kitchen sink settings and can only gain from connecting them in this way.

Other settings on the other Hand, like Eberron and I think DragonLance and Dark Sun, are very tightly constructed. They are carefully build* with certain Goals in mind and to reinforce certain themes. As it is the way with tightly constructed things, even small alterations can have significant implications.

Saying that Eberron is somehow still part of the greater Planescape Cosmos exactly displays the kind of misunderstanding (or disregard) of what makes a setting special that I'm talking about. Treating every setting under the premise of a Default lore is a sign of disrespect as this undermines a setting's own identity.

*this is independent from whether you agree or disagree with the implementation, or enjoy or not enjoy the specific features of these settings

[Unoriginal]

Actually now Greyhawk, FR, Dark Sun, Eberron, etc are part of the same Spelljammer-like Material Plane.

And while the lore was altered in some points, the default setting does *not* modify the exiting ones in significant ways.

For example:

-Default Paladins don't need a deity. The FR Paladins, on the other hand, do.

-Default Drow worship Lolth. The Eberron Drow worship Vulkoor and have never heard of Lolth.

[Zombimode]

Actually now Greyhawk, FR, Dark Sun, Eberron, etc are part of the same Spelljammer-like Material Plane.

This is exactly the kind of disregard to a setting's established lore that fans of said settings find questionable.

[Unoriginal]

This is exactly the kind of disregard to a setting's established lore that fans of said settings find questionable.

It's not a disregard, it's a change.

All settings get modified through the editions.

[mgshamster]

Actually now Greyhawk, FR, Dark Sun, Eberron, etc are part of the same Spelljammer-like Material Plane.

Those have always been a part of the spelljammer setting. Well, not Eberron as it wasn't written yet, but Greyhawk, FR, and Dark Sun all have their own blurbs in the original spelljammer books about what their solar system would look like.

FR has a solar system similar to Earth with the sun in the middle and the planets swirling around the sun. Greyhawk is the opposite, with the planet in the middle and the sun, moon, and other planets all rotating around Greyhawk.

Spelljammer was originally set up so you could go to the systems of other settings of D&D - or heck, any setting you wanted to go to from anything you wanted in literature or your own imagination.

Planescape actually had the exact same set-up: you could go to any world, any setting, as long as you had the imagination to include it.

[Knaight]

It's not a disregard, it's a change.

All settings get modified through the editions.

It's the sort of change that gets made when people who fundamentally don't understand or respect the setting alter it, yes - for all of them other than FR or Greyhawk in any case, where being part of an ambiguous mega-setting is an intentional design aspect, particularly if these are presented in those settings (if Spelljammer wants to reference them as part of Spelljammer, that's pretty much just Spelljammer being updated faithfully).

That said, the old fluff is still there and largely getting easier to access, and this might be a sign that WotC is going to burn through all the established settings quickly and produce some new content.

[Glorthindel]

How about... Hallow World but set on real earth. Once Admiral Byrd found the Hallow World magic was released.

We can fudge the dates a bit and say that technology stopped in the 1880's or whatever BUT magic became a thing. We now have the outer world to explore and this inner fantasy world. Maybe WWI happened, but with magic and other stuff.

Look up Admiral Byrd a d the Hallow Earth theory, good stuff, even better than thefinlandconspiracy...

That would work really well with Masque of the Red Death (The Ravenloft 1890's Gothic Earth setting)

[War_lord]

The cult of Eberron doing an excellent job of proving my point that they're motivated by a disgust for D&D's very foundations.


D&D is the system. There is no "D&D dwarf". There are "Dwarves experienced through D&D", but let's be fair, 90% of people play a dwarf thinking of Gimli or Thorin. If you want to discuss how Forgotten Realms dwarves aren't LotR dwarves, you have a case.

Didn't you previously get schooled by a Forgotten Realms player on this very forum about how Forgotten Realms is distinct from generic edition lore? And more specifically how Forgotten Realms has to put up with drastic sweeping changes to accommodate new editions and new lore far more often then the protected and cosseted Eberron fandom?

Every edition has its own setting filled out gradually through book after book. That's how Nentir Vale was created, as an accumulation of generic lore for 4th edition. Published settings are all niche products. Which is likely why 5th edition is doing a planescape theme, because otherwise WoTC might not have bothered with settings other then generic 5th (which can be sold to the entire player base) and Forgotten Realms (Which actually has a large enough pre-existing audience that anything with the name on it sells). Eberron is not a money spinner, they tried to pimp Eberron as the hot new setting back in the 3.5 days, to the point of even setting D&D online in Eberron... and then later they had to add the Sword Coast in an expansion because that's what people really wanted to buy.

[ZorroGames]

Actually now Greyhawk, FR, Dark Sun, Eberron, etc are part of the same Spelljammer-like Material Plane.

And while the lore was altered in some points, the default setting does *not* modify the exiting ones in significant ways.

For example:

-Default Paladins don't need a deity. The FR Paladins, on the other hand, do.

-Default Drow worship Lolth. The Eberron Drow worship Vulkoor and have never heard of Lolth.

Not getting into the asinine edition wars thing. Fer Gods’ Sake just play what you want and stop bashing others who do not share your addiction.

KEY POINT follows.

Sidebar, Xanathar’s page 18: Serving a Pantheon, Philosophy, or Force. Also refers to chapter 1 of the DMG.

If a Cleric does not need a Diety, then no one needs a Diety. Not Paladins. Not anyone.

There, nit properly picked.

[Naanomi]

Sidebar, Xanathar’s page 18: Serving a Pantheon, Philosophy, or Force. Also refers to chapter 1 of the DMG.

If a Cleric does not need a Diety, then no one needs a Diety. Not Paladins. Not anyone.
Except, of course, in settings where they do

[ZorroGames]

Except, of course, in settings where they do

True but in AL I seldom play Clerics if that is the baseline. There are so many other ways to acquire healing. And 5e has removed the need for a “battle-medic-healbot.”

And so many fun classes/subclasses.

[Naanomi]

True but in AL I seldom play Clerics if that is the baseline. There are so many other ways to acquire healing. And 5e has removed the need for a “battle-medic-healbot.”

And so many fun classes/subclasses.
Of course, Clerics in 5e can do so much more than be healbots as well

[Unoriginal]

Not getting into the asinine edition wars thing. Fer Gods’ Sake just play what you want and stop bashing others who do not share your addiction.

Ah, yes, because calling it an "addiction" isn't bashing.

Also, I've no interest in pretending one setting is better than the others, nor am I doing any edition war thing (at least, not here). I just wish people acknowledged the facts about 5e and the settings, and additionally that they'd stop pretending 5e is despoiling settings or whatever as if it was a grand, unique tragedy.



Sidebar, Xanathar’s page 18: Serving a Pantheon, Philosophy, or Force. Also refers to chapter 1 of the DMG.

If a Cleric does not need a Diety, then no one needs a Diety. Not Paladins. Not anyone.

There, nit properly picked.

This is for 5e's default setting.

Forgotten Realm's setting guide SPECIFICALLY says that your Paladin needs a deity.

Because FR isn't the default setting and things work differently there.

EDIT: Though what I was saying is that a Paladin in default D&D doesn't require serving anyone or anything, be it a pantheon, a philosophy or a force. They get their power from their will and their dedication to their Oath.

It's arguable that Paladins in FR could get their power from a pantheon/philosophy/force, but in any case they would NEED to get their powers from something. Because that's how all divine magic work in FR

[mgshamster]

This statement is obviously in line what the current D&D Designers are thinking.
It contradicts the system-Setting diametry that was in place for alle D&D Editions up to and including 3.5. I'm not knowledgeable enough about 4e to make a statement how Settings were handled in 4e.

Now, that 5e comes with a default lore is not a Problem by itself, it is just a design decision. Problemes arrise if this new Default Lore is superimposed on already established settings, like FR, Eberron and Greyhawk.
This and the tendency to (seemingly thoughtlessly) unify everything is what some People find questionable.

Different settings exist for different reasons, have their own themes and goals and do not neccessarily work the same.

Saying that FR and Greyhawk are part of the same greater Planescape Cosmos? While both settings have their own indentity, they are kitchen sink settings and can only gain from connecting them in this way.

Other settings on the other Hand, like Eberron and I think DragonLance and Dark Sun, are very tightly constructed. They are carefully build* with certain Goals in mind and to reinforce certain themes. As it is the way with tightly constructed things, even small alterations can have significant implications.

Saying that Eberron is somehow still part of the greater Planescape Cosmos exactly displays the kind of misunderstanding (or disregard) of what makes a setting special that I'm talking about. Treating every setting under the premise of a Default lore is a sign of disrespect as this undermines a setting's own identity.

*this is independent from whether you agree or disagree with the implementation, or enjoy or not enjoy the specific features of these settings

The original boxset for Spelljammer has reference to FR, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance - the last is seemingly cut off from the rest of the systems, but it's not according to Spelljammer.

Likewise, in Planescape, all these worlds plus Athas, Birthright, and more are part of the Planescape multiverse. According to the Planes, the people of Krynn, who believe themselves to be unqiue and separate from the rest, are just even more Clueless than the rest of the Clueless Primes out there.

The only reason that Eberron isn't part of the Planes or Spelljammer is because that system was written after the other two had stopped being published. I gauruntee that if either we're still published today, we'd see Eberron mentioned.

Hell, even Eberron has a cannon piece of art that shows a link to the Planes, from Keith Baker's own website:


http://www.bossythecow.com/Streets of Sharn.jpg

There she is, the Lady of Pain from Sigil. Even in the streets of Sharn, the City of Towers. Don't see her? Check the tower in the background. :)

[Regitnui]

Hell, even Eberron has a cannon piece of art that shows a link to the Planes, from Keith Baker's own website:


http://www.bossythecow.com/Streets of Sharn.jpg

There she is, the Lady of Pain from Sigil. Even in the streets of Sharn, the City of Towers. Don't see her? Check the tower in the background. :)

I do not recall that piece of art... Reverse Google Image Search away!

EDIT: It's apparently fan-art. Not that I object to Spelljammer and Eberron being linked, or even small links to Planescape (which I still think should keep the Great Wheel out of settings that don't have it.). It's a very nice piece of work.

Also, War_lord, where was any "disgust for D&D's very foundations"? Because I disagreed with someone over the status of D&D as a setting/system? That's completely separate to any mention of any setting in particular, so if you want to air that particular grievance, you're welcome to find a different place to do so.

[mgshamster]

I do not recall that piece of art... Reverse Google Image Search away!

It's on Keith Baker's website. Link (http://www.bossythecow.com/eberronart.htm)



EDIT: It's apparently fan-art. Not that I object to Spelljammer and Eberron being linked, or even small links to Planescape (which I still think should keep the Great Wheel out of settings that don't have it.). It's a very nice piece of work.

Nowhere on that page does it say fan art. It says Eberron Art, and it's the page of the guy who designed Eberron. And the piece was by a guy who does Eberron art, professionally (he's creditted in some of the books).

It seems pretty incredulous to declare that a piece of art by a guy who has been commissioned by WotC to do Eberron art, hosted on the webpage of the guy who designed the system of Eberron, is just a fan piece (and therefore implying that it doesn't count).

[JackPhoenix]

Nowhere on that page does it say fan art. It says Eberron Art, and it's the page of the guy who designed Eberron. And the piece was by a guy who does Eberron art, professionally (he's creditted in some of the books).

It seems pretty incredulous to declare that a piece of art by a guy who has been commissioned by WotC to do Eberron art, hosted on the webpage of the guy who designed the system of Eberron, is just a fan piece (and therefore implying that it doesn't count).

Considering the artpiece wasn't included in any Eberron-related publication, including the magazines, it isn't "official" art, and even if it was, claiming that single illustration with what may or may not be an easter egg is a proof that Sigil & Planescape is canon (not cannon, though there is a hint that cannons may be canon, despite KB disagreeing with presence of gunpowder in his creation) in Eberron is more incredulous to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Once you have Spelljammer and Planescape going, you can use those to go in any direction. Good point. As to urban fantasy setting, I'd like to see the City State of the Invincible Overlord get folded into 5e. (I think the Judges Guild folks still have rights to that?)

[Arkhios]

It's on Keith Baker's website. Link (http://www.bossythecow.com/eberronart.htm)




Nowhere on that page does it say fan art. It says Eberron Art, and it's the page of the guy who designed Eberron. And the piece was by a guy who does Eberron art, professionally (he's creditted in some of the books).

It seems pretty incredulous to declare that a piece of art by a guy who has been commissioned by WotC to do Eberron art, hosted on the webpage of the guy who designed the system of Eberron, is just a fan piece (and therefore implying that it doesn't count).

Seems legit to me. Every true fan knows that Bossy the Cow is definitely a Keith Baker thing. He carries a cow plushie with him whenever he goes to a convention, as far as I know. A friend of mine even has a picture of him, Bossy, and Keith together. ^^

On a more serious note, why does it matter if it's not in any of the books? The editor of the book's layout might have just decided that the picture in question didn't match the expected artistic style of the book. End of story.

KB is the inventor and designer of Eberron. It's within his rights to decide if Eberron is connected to Sigil or not.

[Beechgnome]

Considering the artpiece wasn't included in any Eberron-related publication, including the magazines, it isn't "official" art, and even if it was, claiming that single illustration with what may or may not be an easter egg is a proof that Sigil & Planescape is canon (not cannon, though there is a hint that cannons may be canon, despite KB disagreeing with presence of gunpowder in his creation) in Eberron is more incredulous to me.

I am not a fan of that use of incredulous (as a synonym of incredible) and am occasionally incredulous that others use it that way... but I understand it has made a revival and, owing to Shakespeare etc., is ‘canon’, so I suppose I will just have to allow it and move on.

As for the current ‘They better stop x’/’They are not doing ‘x’ and if they are it’s fine’ arguments, wake me up when they actually announce the thing in July. Then at least we'll know what we are arguing about.

[JackPhoenix]

On a more serious note, why does it matter if it's not in any of the books? The editor of the book's layout might have just decided that the picture in question didn't match the expected artistic style of the book. End of story.

KB is the inventor and designer of Eberron. It's within his rights to decide if Eberron is connected to Sigil or not.

It's not, unfortunately. KB doesn't own any rights to Eberron. All those wonderful informations from his blog? Not canon (you may notice he often mentions "in my Eberron" or "in my game" in his articles). His own, officially published novels? Not canon either. Keith himself disagrees with some stuff that made it into official books he wasn't working on (Forge of War being the biggest offender, IIRC, including being the book mentioning gunpowder weapons) that *are* canon.

All the stuff from MToF? Canon if Mike Mearls say so. Keith Baker can disagree all he wants, but per the terms of their agreement, it's WotC who decided what is or isn't canon for Eberron. Or any other setting they own. Weiss and Hickman don't own Dragonlance either, as I've found out few days ago.

It's what worries me and some other Eberron fans: that MM can add or change whatever he wants in potential future publications, no matter what Keith or anyone else thinks.

[Millstone85]

Though what I was saying is that a Paladin in default D&D doesn't require serving anyone or anything, be it a pantheon, a philosophy or a force. They get their power from their will and their dedication to their Oath.Hmm, I would consider a paladin's oath to be a type of philosophy.

[Regitnui]

KB is the inventor and designer of Eberron. It's within his rights to decide if Eberron is connected to Sigil or not.

He has said as much, that he prefers Sigil to not be directly connected to Eberron's Material Plane. He mentioned Syrania, the Plane of Harmony, as the most likely place Sigil connects to Eberron. It's a sort of "planar air lock" put in by the Primordial Dragons, according to him. But he emphasises how Eberron is separated from the other worlds every time it's brought up, which is why I think Spelljammer's going to get us there better than Planescape.


It seems pretty incredulous to declare that a piece of art by a guy who has been commissioned by WotC to do Eberron art, hosted on the webpage of the guy who designed the system of Eberron, is just a fan piece (and therefore implying that it doesn't count).

I didn't mean that in a derogatory way. I meant it like "it's not WotC-backed so won't offer any insight into the setting as WotC would run it". So it's cool and a nice picture, but not an indication of any official Eberron in Planescape-type deal.

[mgshamster]

I didn't mean that in a derogatory way. I meant it like "it's not WotC-backed so won't offer any insight into the setting as WotC would run it". So it's cool and a nice picture, but not an indication of any official Eberron in Planescape-type deal.

Fair point! I apologise for misreading you.

[Chaosmancer]

D&D HAS a default lore, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise. It's not just "the system".

Yes, DnD has default lore (different defaults depending on the setting) but I think that is rather similar to my computer having default programs when I purchased it. True, but not overly important to the functioning of my computer and easily pulled out and replaced by something I find better.

Just like I'm still surfing the internet on my computer if I'm using Firefox instead of Chrome or Edge, you are still playing DnD if the panda people created the first dragons when they warred against the Ents. The system is more important to the "quality of DnD-ness" than the lore, default, tolkien, or otherwise.

[Millstone85]

He has said as much, that he prefers Sigil to not be directly connected to Eberron's Material Plane. He mentioned Syrania, the Plane of Harmony, as the most likely place Sigil connects to Eberron. It's a sort of "planar air lock" put in by the Primordial Dragons, according to him. But he emphasises how Eberron is separated from the other worlds every time it's brought up, which is why I think Spelljammer's going to get us there better than Planescape.I don't see how. Before, there may have been some ambiguity on whether the Phlogiston connects various material planes or if there is a single Material Plane that is mostly made of phlogiston, but I would expect 5e Spelljammer to point insistently at the latter.

[War_lord]

If the default lore for the edition was somehow "unimportant", they wouldn't have spent 5 of the 6 chapters of the new book on it, and they wouldn't have Mearls employed in a position that's basically head of new lore ideas.

Also yes, WoTC owns Eberron, they own all the contest submissions. What Baker might want or think doesn't matter unless WoTC asks for his input, Baker himself has stressed that on multiple occasions.

[SaintRidley]

All I care is that we get some kind of support for Dark Sun, and I guess Eberron so I can finally get my hands on Changelings and Warforged.

[mgshamster]

All I care is that we get some kind of support for Dark Sun, and I guess Eberron so I can finally get my hands on Changelings and Warforged.

I'm pretty sure those already exist. At least, I've seen them in some 5e games. UA, I think.

[Regitnui]

I don't see how. Before, there may have been some ambiguity on whether the Phlogiston connects various material planes or if there is a single Material Plane that is mostly made of phlogiston, but I would expect 5e Spelljammer to point insistently at the latter.

Keith hasn't said much on Spelljammer beyond a vague affirmation that it was possible to reach the Crystal Sphere of Eberron (Shardspace), but as far as I remember, he seems to be more positively inclined towards it than Planescape, which as I mentioned, he routes through Syrania. There are ways to get to the general area of Eberron via Sigil, but not onto Eberron's material plane, IIRC.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

According to the Planes, the people of Krynn, who believe themselves to be unqiue and separate from the rest, are just even more Clueless than the rest of the Clueless Primes out there.

Even sort of poked at in the Dragonlance itself - the whole setup for the War of Souls is the goddess of evil moving Krynn to a different location within the planes, and the other gods not being able to find it. During the move, other dragons from different spots on a broader material plane make their way to Krynn.

And, of course, in Baldur's Gate 2 your Forgotten Realms-dwelling mage or sorcerer can use the Planar Sphere to visit Krynn, albeit only briefly.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm pretty sure those already exist. At least, I've seen them in some 5e games. UA, I think.

Correct - which means they aren't legal for AL play. Presumably, an ECS book would make them legal as your +1 source.

[SaintRidley]

I'm pretty sure those already exist. At least, I've seen them in some 5e games. UA, I think.


Yeah, I don't bother with UA. Not because of anything to do with AL (I don't bother with that either), but because I don't have time to devote to seeing if the UA thing is half-decent or borked sideways, considering from what I've seen they tend to be all over the place in terms of quality and sense.

I'll wait until it's in a book and more or less in a fixed form.

[mgshamster]

Keith hasn't said much on Spelljammer beyond a vague affirmation that it was possible to reach the Crystal Sphere of Eberron (Shardspace), but as far as I remember, he seems to be more positively inclined towards it than Planescape, which as I mentioned, he routes through Syrania. There are ways to get to the general area of Eberron via Sigil, but not onto Eberron's material plane, IIRC.

For Planescape, that's close enough for a link.

Just like how you can't go from the Outer Planes (planes of morality) to the inner planes (planes of elements) directly. You have to route through somewhere else first, such as a prime material plane. Same is true for the Astral and the Ethereal planes, if I recall correctly.

So even if there's a single entry at some point that gets you to the universe of Eberron, and from there you have to travel to get to the planet, it still links the two systems. Insofar as Planewalkers are concerned, at least.

[Naanomi]

I don't see how. Before, there may have been some ambiguity on whether the Phlogiston connects various material planes or if there is a single Material Plane that is mostly made of phlogiston, but I would expect 5e Spelljammer to point insistently at the latter.
This is what I wasn’t understanding... it’s like saying ‘I don’t want this berry in a pie, it is a unique special berry that doesn’t belong in a pie. I see it fitting just in the pie filling instead.’

The Spelljammer setting is explicitly a smaller piece of the larger Planescape Great Wheel Cosmology (has been for a long time, though you are right that it was not explicitly so in the first release of Spelljammer), just like every Prime has its own Inner Planes... maybe... before Planescape unified it

[Nifft]

This is what I wasn’t understanding... it’s like saying ‘I don’t want this berry in a pie, it is a unique special berry that doesn’t belong in a pie. I see it fitting just in the pie filling instead.’

The Spelljammer setting is explicitly a smaller piece of the larger Planescape Great Wheel Cosmology (has been for a long time, though you are right that it was not explicitly so in the first release of Spelljammer), just like every Prime has its own Inner Planes... maybe... before Planescape unified it

I'm not that person, but it was my impression that Planescape munged everything into one big cosmology, while Spelljammer allowed each "space" to have its own rules.

So you could have a different set of afterlife rules for each "space" in Spelljammer, and even have some places where gods didn't exist (e.g. Dark Sun), and not step on anyone's toes in terms of any lore being objectively wrong in the larger metaphysics.

On the other hand, it's my impression that Planescape is a canonical enforcement of a rather old-school Great Wheel, and that's the objective truth of every world. Which is cool for a setting in itself, but not cool to force on other settings which don't happen to align.

[Smitty Wesson]

This is what I wasn’t understanding... it’s like saying ‘I don’t want this berry in a pie, it is a unique special berry that doesn’t belong in a pie. I see it fitting just in the pie filling instead.’



It is more that Dark Sun and Eberron both have aspects that depend on a separate planar set up. Dark Sun depends on lack of contact with other planes to keep its low magic, no gods, hopeless and inescapable set up. Eberron has very particular planes (especially Xoriat and Dal Quor) whose interactions with Eberron work in specific ways that have shaped its history (and the history is The Thing that makes Eberron what it is - if you move too many Jenga blocks in its lore, things could get less coherent).

[Smitty Wesson]

All I care is that we get some kind of support for Dark Sun, and I guess Eberron so I can finally get my hands on Changelings and Warforged.

This is where I am. 3.5 Eberron lore is already written and fine as is. I just want the monsters and races and items. (I also have some confidence that these will be released as soon as the Psion and the Artificer are done.)

[Regitnui]

I'm not that person, but it was my impression that Planescape munged everything into one big cosmology, while Spelljammer allowed each "space" to have its own rules.

So you could have a different set of afterlife rules for each "space" in Spelljammer, and even have some places where gods didn't exist (e.g. Dark Sun), and not step on anyone's toes in terms of any lore being objectively wrong in the larger metaphysics.

On the other hand, it's my impression that Planescape is a canonical enforcement of a rather old-school Great Wheel, and that's the objective truth of every world. Which is cool for a setting in itself, but not cool to force on other settings which don't happen to align.

I don't have much else to add besides this being the reason why I'd much prefer Spelljammer being our grand linking setting than Planescape. Different "Spheres" means each setting has its own space to be what it is (besides Ravenloft, but that's moving on a completely different level) while Planescape kinda rigidly defines what's possible within its space; all demons come from the Abyss all the time. I say that barlgura come from Lamannia and the shadow demons from Mabar, and that makes no sense in Planescape, so far as I know. However, Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres allow Mabar and Lamannia to exist in Shardspace while the Great Wheel spins on in Realmspace.

[mgshamster]

I'm not that person, but it was my impression that Planescape munged everything into one big cosmology, while Spelljammer allowed each "space" to have its own rules.

So you could have a different set of afterlife rules for each "space" in Spelljammer, and even have some places where gods didn't exist (e.g. Dark Sun), and not step on anyone's toes in terms of any lore being objectively wrong in the larger metaphysics.

On the other hand, it's my impression that Planescape is a canonical enforcement of a rather old-school Great Wheel, and that's the objective truth of every world. Which is cool for a setting in itself, but not cool to force on other settings which don't happen to align.

Naw. The planes are infinite, and with that come an infinite number of possibilities. And remember, each individual plane is infinite until itself, with each sublayer of each plane also infinite until itself.

The Prime Material Plane (where all Prime Material Worlds exist) is said to have an entire universes or even mutliverses inside every grain of sand (or "crystal sphere") and within each of those grains it has it's own physics and cosmology and Gods and what-have-you. And some of them have free access to the Great Wheel, and some of them are closed off entirely - but they're all still connected. And the PMP is infinite, so that must mean there are an infinite number of worlds and universes which exist on it. And one of those could be Eberron or Athos or Krynn or Earth (not just earth, but our entire universe) or any number of places.

Depending on their distance to the Spire may dictate some of their physics, like whether magic is available. The closer you get to the Spire, the less powerful magic there is, up to the point where no.magic can be used right next to the Spire. That might be where our universe lies. If we walked to the edge of our universe, we might find ourselves at the edge of the Spire on the Prime Material Plane, where no magic can be cast whatsoever - it explains why we have no magic here on Earth, being so close to the Spire like that. :)

[Naanomi]

It is more that Dark Sun and Eberron both have aspects that depend on a separate planar set up. Dark Sun depends on lack of contact with other planes to keep its low magic, no gods, hopeless and inescapable set up
The Grey and the Black... and being far off the Greater Arcane Flow on the Prime... did fine keeping Athas isolated enough for the campaign setting to function great but still be accessible to the larger Cosmology (in fact, the adventure path with the ancient crashed Gith ship was pretty fun)

I think Eberron could have a similar set up easy enough... that it is highly isolated, and some sort of barrier exists to keep outside influences outside as much as needed

[JoeJ]

I don't see how. Before, there may have been some ambiguity on whether the Phlogiston connects various material planes or if there is a single Material Plane that is mostly made of phlogiston, but I would expect 5e Spelljammer to point insistently at the latter.

Complicating the issue is the fact that planar magic of any kind does not function in the phlogiston. Even things like portable holes can't be accessed in the phlogiston. (The contents don't disappear, but you can't get into them until you leave the flow.)

There's additionally the problem that planescape and spelljammer each make the other redundant. They are both meta-settings that allow an unlimited number of different environments to be explored, so you only really need one or the other.

[Anonymouswizard]

All settings get modified through the editions.

Don't remind me of what 4e did to Dark Sun.

Or what the second boxed set did for that matter.

The only true Dark Sun setting is the original boxed set. Which, if you're willing to put in the legwork, works quite well as a Savage Worlds setting due to Dark Sun's plant killing magic not making a lot of sense with prepared spells. Also works well with GURPS, if you can work out a way to price Defiling.


Good point. As to urban fantasy setting, I'd like to see the City State of the Invincible Overlord get folded into 5e. (I think the Judges Guild folks still have rights to that?)

Eh, there's plenty of good Urban Fantasy games out there, just pick one of the dedicated systems. Although a proper remake of Unearthed Arcana, complete with a set of setting-appropriate skill, tool, and spell lists, could pry me away from Unknown Armies to try running D&D again.

[Jama7301]

This thread is making me hope that it's an entirely new setting, so in 7 years we can see people go "6th edition has ruined Arthafla, and the 5e lore is the only one that matters, plus these two books off DMs Guild".

Good times. I've never been around for the start of one of these happenings.

[Millstone85]

However, Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres allow Mabar and Lamannia to exist in Shardspace while the Great Wheel spins on in Realmspace.
The Prime Material Plane (where all Prime Material Worlds exist) is said to have an entire universes or even mutliverses inside every grain of sand (or "crystal sphere") and within each of those grains it has it's own physics and cosmology and Gods and what-have-you.This is a description of Spelljammer I had never met before.

My understanding was that a crystal sphere contains things like planets, moons and asteroids, sometimes organized in a solar system similar to our own, in others cases more fantastical with a planet being orbited by its sun or carried on the back of a great beast. Lots and lots of possibilities. And there could also be wildly different rules of magic.

But I had never heard of a crystal sphere containing multiple planes of existence, let alone a whole cosmology. Yes, I did suggest earlier that Shardspace could be shaped after the Orrery, but I envisioned this as planet-sized manifest zones.

Did Spelljammer undergo a massive paradigm shift at some point?

[Naanomi]

The oldest Spelljammer material played with the idea that Crystal Spheres were prime-only phenomenon, and that the phlogiston connected them as sort of a ‘extra-cosmological hyperspace’

So Greyspace and Realmspace would both exist as independent Crystal Spheres that both happened to connect to The Great Wheel, but Athas Space’s Crystal Sphere would connect to the Grey only... and thus Eberron’s Crystal Sphere wouldn’t intersect the Great Wheel, but rather it’s own system (that, perhaps, other Crystal spheres might also connect with?)

This model was mostly abandoned as Planescape absorbed Spelljammer into an even larger meta-setting in... mid-2e era?

[mgshamster]

This is a description of Spelljammer I had never met before.

Likely because I wasn't describing Spelljammer. I was describing Planescape. :)

I've also read descriptions that the Spelljammer modes of travel is simply traveling on the Prime Material Plane going from one crystal shard to another, whereas the Planescape mode of travel goes from the PMP itself through portals to the inner and outer planes (which are connected to the PMP via the Astral and Ethereal planes).

Meaning they're one in the same setting - just different ways of getting around.

I know Planescape much much better than Spelljammer. I've only read a handful of books in Spelljammer, but I own a physical copy of almost every book in Planescape (missing a handful of adventures). So when I see Prime Material Plane, I automatically assume we're talking Planescape, and I have to remind myself that Spelljammer uses the same terminology - because they're talking about the same place.

[MeeposFire]

If this is actually going to be like CUrse of Strahd then I personally feel like it is going to be either an adventure based on Sigil or on a spelljammer. Or it can use both (they fill similar niches but they do it differently also they have mentioned teasers for both settings).

I would like to see Eberron or Dark SUn (though what was really wrong with 4e DS that was a lot of fun and the only big difference I remember was that Tyr was a city you could start in where low level new players had a better chance to learn the ropes) but that tidbit makes me think Planescape and Spell Jammer though just like Ravenloft and that adventure I do not think that if Planescape is used it is going to be presented as a full setting but rather the adventure will have a bunch of important details to run an adventure there so you get a taste of a full setting.

Ravenloft did not get a full treatment but you did gets bits of it from the adventure.

[Chaosmancer]

This thread is making me hope that it's an entirely new setting, so in 7 years we can see people go "6th edition has ruined Arthafla, and the 5e lore is the only one that matters, plus these two books off DMs Guild".

Good times. I've never been around for the start of one of these happenings.

I'm with you on that, I've never been able to get invested into most settings or even a lot of different media because I'm such a late adopter. It would be awesome to be in on the ground floor of a new and interesting DnD setting.

Then I can have my share of the outrage 20 years from now :)

(6e improved Arthafla clearly, you are a philistine for not seeing that)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm with you on that, I've never been able to get invested into most settings or even a lot of different media because I'm such a late adopter. It would be awesome to be in on the ground floor of a new and interesting DnD setting.

Then I can have my share of the outrage 20 years from now :)

(6e improved Arthafla clearly, you are a philistine for not seeing that)

I'm disgusted that you don't seem to understand that Arthafla isn't the default setting and you don't have to include its iconic NPCs in your setting of choice. This is D and D 101, people!

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm with you on that, I've never been able to get invested into most settings or even a lot of different media because I'm such a late adopter. It would be awesome to be in on the ground floor of a new and interesting DnD setting.

Then I can have my share of the outrage 20 years from now :)

(6e improved Arthafla clearly, you are a philistine for not seeing that)

I never managed to be as invested in Planescape as I wanted, but I have to say that the 2e boxsets really got me invested in Birthright (which is more Tolkienian than Greyhawk or FR, although it's still not particularly close) and Dark Sun (which combines my love of bleak fantasy with the complexity of the Sorcerer Kings).

For the record, I dislike the second Dark Sun boxset because I think it brought in some stupid stuff, while I think 4e abandoned some of the setting's greatest themes to make it more 4e-friendly (which I think might have also happened with Eberron, and definitely did with the FR).

I have also got into other games' settings. I've recently got into Unknown Armies significantly more seriously than I was before, so I've ended up in the opposite camp to long time fans (they see the setting making massive changes that ruin what they like, I see a continuation of the previous themes and a greater focus on the most accessible part of the game. Messing with the Freak was still wrong though). I was just invested enough in the Warhammer 40k setting that the idea of the Primarchs coming back instead of destiny remaining in the hands of men, not gods, made me drop it entirely. I actually enjoy how Eclipse Phase 2e is shifting from being a horror game, even if I'm still not overly fond of the character creation system.

I very much would prefer it if WotC would just release a standard 5e setting more along the lines of the Nentir Vale than the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk thing they seem to have going. It's trying too hard to have generic fluff in a very specific kind of fantasy, say what you like but at least 4e decided to weave itself together with it's default world and cosmology (although I believe they also shoved the Astral Sea/Primordial Chaos cosmology into every setting.

EDIT: honestly, the two of you need to go back to the 2e box set, where Arthalafa was just a rough history and set of maps. The only region we even had detailed was the Alfrest kingdom, there weren't any of these books on Dawheim politics and noble families.

[JackPhoenix]

But I had never heard of a crystal sphere containing multiple planes of existence, let alone a whole cosmology. Yes, I did suggest earlier that Shardspace could be shaped after the Orrery, but I envisioned this as planet-sized manifest zones.

Did Spelljammer undergo a massive paradigm shift at some point?

Speaking of Shardspace, you don't need extra planets. Eberron's 12 moons (and one void-borne cloud of gravel) are already linked with the planes. Orrery of the Planes from 3.5 ECS already says the item tracks the positions of the moons. Thought the world and planar calendar tool from WotC's old site doesn't seem to have any direct link between the moons and the planes, as far as I can see.

[JoeJ]

I'm disgusted that you don't seem to understand that Arthafla isn't the default setting and you don't have to include its iconic NPCs in your setting of choice. This is D and D 101, people!

Why can't the devs just let us have Kelnore as it's supposed to be without forcing all this Arthafla crap on us?

[EvilAnagram]

Why can't the devs just let us have Kelnore as it's supposed to be without forcing all this Arthafla crap on us?

I don't know how the thread got to this point, but I'm happy it did.

[Unoriginal]

I don't know how the thread got to this point, but I'm happy it did.

I wish I could.

[JoeJ]

I'm not that person, but it was my impression that Planescape munged everything into one big cosmology, while Spelljammer allowed each "space" to have its own rules.

So you could have a different set of afterlife rules for each "space" in Spelljammer, and even have some places where gods didn't exist (e.g. Dark Sun), and not step on anyone's toes in terms of any lore being objectively wrong in the larger metaphysics.

Unless I'm forgetting something, nothing in spelljammer ever said that the planes are different in each crystal sphere, but there's also nothing preventing you from doing it that way. It was specified that deities can only reach spheres where they have worshippers, even to the point that clerics can't recover spells above 2nd level if their god isn't represented. From the POV of characters living there, "the gods don't exist" is indistinguishable from "the gods exist but can't affect anything here."

[2D8HP]

Why can't the devs just let us have Kelnore as it's supposed to be without forcing all this Arthafla crap on us?


Those Johnny-come-lately settings?

Please.

Brownswamp and The Big Duchy are the only true (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553440-Let-s-build-Generica-(standard-fantasy-product)) settings!

[ZorroGames]

This thread is making me hope that it's an entirely new setting, so in 7 years we can see people go "6th edition has ruined Arthafla, and the 5e lore is the only one that matters, plus these two books off DMs Guild".

Good times. I've never been around for the start of one of these happenings.

😉😁😄😃😅😂🤣

Love it.

[JAL_1138]

Meanwhile, Doriath fans can't even get a word in edgewise for all the Kelnore fans' complaints. "Why release Doriath? Who even plays that anymore? It's too similar to Arthafla; at least Kelnore was different," goes the cry, when Doriath had a completely different tone and feel even if it covered similar thematic ground.

[Sol]

I for one am hoping we finally get The Giant's campaign setting. You know, the one that lost the player-made-turned-official setting contest to Eberron.

If wotc has forgotten they have that and the rights to it, how do we remind them?

[Chaosvii7]

I for one am hoping we finally get The Giant's campaign setting. You know, the one that lost the player-made-turned-official setting contest to Eberron.

If wotc has forgotten they have that and the rights to it, how do we remind them?

Why, the same way you get any company's attention: Try to make money off of it, even if it's legal!

That said, any old setting they give us is fine, but I really do want a new one. Mostly because I'm getting a little tired of people complaining about Forgotten Realms being too samey and then asking for the same handful of settings that have already had their time in the sun. I like new things, I like experiencing things for the first time.

Moreover, I'd love it if they re-acquired the rights to some of the more obscure settings that they've lost, like Pelinore or Kalamar. I just really want to see something nobody expects in the mix and see if they can turn it into a runaway hit like they've been so fond of doing with their adventure modules.

[JadedDM]

I'd be interested in a new setting, too, if they built one to perfectly fit the 5E ruleset, the way Eberron was built for the 3E ruleset.

[Naanomi]

I'd be interested in a new setting, too, if they built one to perfectly fit the 5E ruleset, the way Eberron was built for the 3E ruleset.
I have a hard time thinking what that would look like specifically

[ZorroGames]

I have a hard time thinking what that would look like specifically

Won’t know until it is done. Then the “usual suspects” will wail, whine, and gnash their teeth.

[Nifft]

I have a hard time thinking what that would look like specifically

Well, to play devil's advocate, I wouldn't have predicted Eberron before I'd seen Eberron.

So for me at least, it'd be interested to see a 5e showcase setting.

Last time they did one, it was a positive surprise.

[Fire Tarrasque]

Meanwhile, Doriath fans can't even get a word in edgewise for all the Kelnore fans' complaints. "Why release Doriath? Who even plays that anymore? It's too similar to Arthafla; at least Kelnore was different," goes the cry, when Doriath had a completely different tone and feel even if it covered similar thematic ground.

Any people will still want Spelljammer.
No matter what happens, people still want Spelljammer.

It was technically discontinued back in 2nd AD&D along with Greyhawk.
People still want it.
Spelljammer is IMMORTAL.

[Smitty Wesson]

Any people will still want Spelljammer.
No matter what happens, people still want Spelljammer.

It was technically discontinued back in 2nd AD&D along with Greyhawk.
People still want it.
Spelljammer is IMMORTAL.

Spelljammer was ahead of its time. It was a little too weird and postmodern for D&D of the early 90's, but it is a very good fit for the 10's where D&D has more of a reputation for breaking down into surreally humorous scenarios.

[Naanomi]

Well, to play devil's advocate, I wouldn't have predicted Eberron before I'd seen Eberron.

So for me at least, it'd be interested to see a 5e showcase setting.

Last time they did one, it was a positive surprise.
Eh... to me a lot of Eberron was sort of ‘tippyverse lite’... trying to take magic item markets, easy permanent item creation, worldshaping high level magic, everyone being built the same as PCs... all to a logical conclusion (one possible logical conclusion anyways)

Lots of Eberron was super unique, and the overall setting stuff seperate from the ‘magical industrial revolution’ stuff was great... but the mechanical stuff was born of intricacies of 3.5 and specifically the ways it was unique from the older DnD setting models. With 5e as the ‘2e with modernized mechanical tastes’ edition, I’m not sure what would really manifest as unique from those 2e settings it was sort of designed to operate in well

Though you are right that one could be surprised though

[Anonymouswizard]

Won’t know until it is done. Then the “usual suspects” will wail, whine, and gnash their teeth.

Oi! Just because we don't mindlessly praise everything released.

Heck, 5e is very much trend chasing, and some of the things it does are inferior to what it's trying to copy. This is exemplified by the 'Personality Traits', a quite frankly terrible imitation of Fate's Character Aspects.

'Oh wow Wizards of the Coast, you did the thing a game I own that's five/ten/fifteen years old did! You deserve a cookie.'

I'm sorry if it sounds mean, especially towards 5e's fans, but I get sick at it being praised for things that aren't new. 'Hey, 5e includes roleplaying mechanics', well so did Unknown Armies 1e, and they actually worked a lot better there. I've seen subclasses several times before, although never quite in the 5e model (then again the way D&D uses classes seems to be it's actually most unique thing). It's really annoying.


Spelljammer was ahead of its time. It was a little too weird and postmodern for D&D of the early 90's, but it is a very good fit for the 10's where D&D has more of a reputation for breaking down into surreally humorous scenarios.

I'm in a weird position when it comes to Spelljammer.

On the one hand I like weird. But on the other hand if I want weird I've got games dedicated towards that. Like the ones written by Greg Stolze.

[Astofel]

Personally, I'd much rather see a brand new setting than an old one updated for 5e. That might be because I entered the hobby with 5e, though, so none of the old settings hold any kind of nostalgia for me. Now that I think of it, I imagine that's true of a lot of people, which might be why WotC hasn't published any setting-specific material outside of adventures and the SCAG.

I also kind of wonder why people clamouring for old settings want them updated at all. All the sourcebooks and material from prior editions still exist and are perfectly playable. If what I hear is anything to go by, settings being updated doesn't tend to go well (4e Eberron). I think that any setting updated for 5e is just going to be worse than its former self, if only because it's being altered to fit a new edition, instead of being designed from scratch to work with it.

[JoeJ]

I also kind of wonder why people clamouring for old settings want them updated at all. All the sourcebooks and material from prior editions still exist and are perfectly playable. If what I hear is anything to go by, settings being updated doesn't tend to go well (4e Eberron). I think that any setting updated for 5e is just going to be worse than its former self, if only because it's being altered to fit a new edition, instead of being designed from scratch to work with it.

You can keep all the old lore, but some of it needs new mechanics that work with 5e rules.

[Astofel]

You can keep all the old lore, but some of it needs new mechanics that work with 5e rules.

Exactly, and those new mechanics won't be as good. When those settings were first designed, they were designed to work with a specific edition of D&D. Trying to update them for 5e will always end up missing out on something that people liked about the setting. If I wanted to play in the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't use 5e, I'd use one of the systems built for the Star Wars universe. If I wanted to play Eberron, I also wouldn't use 5e, I'd use 3.5e.

[JoeJ]

Exactly, and those new mechanics won't be as good. When those settings were first designed, they were designed to work with a specific edition of D&D. Trying to update them for 5e will always end up missing out on something that people liked about the setting. If I wanted to play in the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't use 5e, I'd use one of the systems built for the Star Wars universe. If I wanted to play Eberron, I also wouldn't use 5e, I'd use 3.5e.

How do you know they won't be as good until you see them? They might be better. Would you argue that the FR classes & races are in every case not as good now as they were in AD&D?

[Astofel]

How do you know they won't be as good until you see them? They might be better. Would you argue that the FR classes & races are in every case not as good now as they were in AD&D?

I wouldn't know, I haven't played AD&D. But a setting is not a race or class. Those typically exist independently of settings, they are part of the rules structure of the game. Settings are built with concepts in mind that depend on the rules of an edition to work properly, which makes it difficult to port them to a new rules system.

I'm also basing this opinion off those who seemingly constantly moan about how their favourite setting is being ruined by 5e, or was ruined by 4e. I don't foresee those people ever being satisfied, so WotC would be foolish to try.

[JoeJ]

I wouldn't know, I haven't played AD&D. But a setting is not a race or class. Those typically exist independently of settings, they are part of the rules structure of the game. Settings are built with concepts in mind that depend on the rules of an edition to work properly, which makes it difficult to port them to a new rules system.

I'm also basing this opinion off those who seemingly constantly moan about how their favourite setting is being ruined by 5e, or was ruined by 4e. I don't foresee those people ever being satisfied, so WotC would be foolish to try.

A setting is not a race or class, true. But settings include races and classes, and that's a good deal of what people want updated for 5e; the races and classes that let them play the old setting with new rules.

[JackPhoenix]

Exactly, and those new mechanics won't be as good. When those settings were first designed, they were designed to work with a specific edition of D&D. Trying to update them for 5e will always end up missing out on something that people liked about the setting. If I wanted to play in the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't use 5e, I'd use one of the systems built for the Star Wars universe. If I wanted to play Eberron, I also wouldn't use 5e, I'd use 3.5e.

For Eberron specifically, 5e works better than 3.5 in some ways. In Eberron, PCs are supposed to be exceptional... 5e delivers that, because NPCs and PCs are build differently, while in 3.5, they use the same mechanics. Ritual magic is something that fits Eberron's flavor, but it didn't existed in 3.5e. More common low-level magic? Well, 5e gave unlimited use for cantrips, and Magic Initiate is a great feat that allows anyone to use some spells. 5e changed how alignment works, and the result is better fit for Eberron than 3.5's default take. Changes to how magic items work are also for the better, you can now actually have common magic items being common, instead of wondering where that peasant got stuff that's priced in thousands of gp by 3.5e magic item pricing rules. Etc..

[2D8HP]

I'd be interested in a new setting, too, if they built one to perfectly fit the 5E ruleset, the way Eberron was built for the 3E ruleset.


I have a hard time thinking what that would look like specifically


Eh... to me a lot of Eberron was sort of ‘tippyverse lite’... trying to take magic item markets, easy permanent item creation, worldshaping high level magic, everyone being built the same as PCs... all to a logical conclusion (one possible logical conclusion anyways)

Lots of Eberron was super unique, and the overall setting stuff seperate from the ‘magical industrial revolution’ stuff was great... but the mechanical stuff was born of intricacies of 3.5 and specifically the ways it was unique from the older DnD setting models. With 5e as the ‘2e with modernized mechanical tastes’ edition, I’m not sure what would really manifest as unique from those 2e settings it was sort of designed to operate in well

Though you are right that one could be surprised though


Personally, I'd much rather see a brand new setting than an old one updated for 5e. That might be because I entered the hobby with 5e, though, so none of the old settings hold any kind of nostalgia for me. Now that I think of it, I imagine that's true of a lot of people, which might be why WotC hasn't published any setting-specific material outside of adventures and the SCAG.

I also kind of wonder why people clamouring for old settings want them updated at all. All the sourcebooks and material from prior editions still exist and are perfectly playable. If what I hear is anything to go by, settings being updated doesn't tend to go well (4e Eberron). I think that any setting updated for 5e is just going to be worse than its former self, if only because it's being altered to fit a new edition, instead of being designed from scratch to work with it.


Well to me, since I ignored 2e and never played 3e and 4e, the Forgotten Realms is the new setting for 5e 'cause the last published setting Adventures I used for D&D before 5e were GreyhawK and Mystara, and while I had the [I]City State of the World Emperor (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_State_of_the_World_Emperor) (which I think is part of the Wilderlands of High Fantasy setting), and I had Empire of the Petal Throne (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_the_Petal_Throne) (Tékumel) and thought they were really cool, I didn't use them and really didn't pay any attention to grand scale setting details in play, and everthing was pretty much just in Generica (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553440-Let-s-build-Generica-(standard-fantasy-product)), and today as a player I'm fine if all I and my PC know of a setting is the name of an Alewife, a Bandit Chief, a Blacksmith, a Fishmonger, a Guildmaster, and a Hobgoblin Lord.

And actually I like when the Fantasy Counterpart (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCounterpartCulture) is blatant ("oh this is France/Russia/the Aztecs/whatever"), but sure I'd like to see more material on Birthright, Dark Sun, Lankhmar, and Nentir Vale, and I'll enjoy reading them, but I don't think I have a need for them.

One City, one Town, one Village, some Mountains, Deserts, Woods, and Monster filled Ruins, and I'm good.

[Knaight]

On the one hand I like weird. But on the other hand if I want weird I've got games dedicated towards that. Like the ones written by Greg Stolze.

I tend to use Stolze games for the mechanics (ORE is just so good), but some of those settings really are bizarre. Especially Reign and Godlike, which look so normal on the surface, then as you start moving towards the details the oddities start piling up, until it's just a tapestry of weird that somehow snuck up on you, and that you don't really notice until you ride a bunch of war mammoths into an oversized redwood forest in the literal armpit of a world-god.

[ZorroGames]

Oi! Just because we don't mindlessly praise everything released.

Heck, 5e is very much trend chasing, and some of the things it does are inferior to what it's trying to copy. This is exemplified by the 'Personality Traits', a quite frankly terrible imitation of Fate's Character Aspects.

'Oh wow Wizards of the Coast, you did the thing a game I own that's five/ten/fifteen years old did! You deserve a cookie.'

I'm sorry if it sounds mean, especially towards 5e's fans, but I get sick at it being praised for things that aren't new. 'Hey, 5e includes roleplaying mechanics', well so did Unknown Armies 1e, and they actually worked a lot better there. I've seen subclasses several times before, although never quite in the 5e model (then again the way D&D uses classes seems to be it's actually most unique thing). It's really annoying.



I'm in a weird position when it comes to Spelljammer.

On the one hand I like weird. But on the other hand if I want weird I've got games dedicated towards that. Like the ones written by Greg Stolze.

First statement - not true.

Don't Like something, change it (and stay away from AL,) play another game, find a like minded group and play a mishmash of “best” game mechanics.

Every game out there borrows or copies from previous games.

A fan but not a mindless adoring Fan Boy, just accepting of the games parameters.

[Anonymouswizard]

I tend to use Stolze games for the mechanics (ORE is just so good), but some of those settings really are bizarre. Especially Reign and Godlike, which look so normal on the surface, then as you start moving towards the details the oddities start piling up, until it's just a tapestry of weird that somehow snuck up on you, and that you don't really notice until you ride a bunch of war mammoths into an oversized redwood forest in the literal armpit of a world-god.

It says something where the game that makes you play crazy obsessed people is probably the most sane...


First statement - not true.

Don't Like something, change it (and stay away from AL,) play another game, find a like minded group and play a mishmash of “best” game mechanics.

Every game out there borrows or copies from previous games.

A fan but not a mindless adoring Fan Boy, just accepting of the games parameters.

Okay, 5e is a good game. Not a great one, not an outstanding, one, not a praiseworthy one, just a good one.

But outside of this forum everybody I see talking about 5e seem to treat it as literally the best and most inventive game ever released. 'Personality traits are amazing why didn't games do this before?' 'I love how rules light 5e is!' 'Fate, what's that? Why don't you just play D&D.'

Here's the thing, by choice I don't play D&D. I'll pay Unknown Armies, or GURPS, or Fate, or Traveller, or Savage Worlds. I have an entire bookshelf of RPGs I never get to play because people only want D&D.

The problem is, whenever people say they're want something, day psionics or Eberron they're told to shut up.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I gotta say I'm fascinated by the number of posts on this here "Dungeons and Dragons to Announce New Settings" topic on this here "Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition" forum used to talk about how actually Dungeons and Dragons is less good than this other game system.

[2D8HP]

...Okay, 5e is a good game. Not a great one, not an outstanding, one, not a praiseworthy one, just a good one....


5e is a good enough game that being actually played by other people is what makes it a great game.

I own way too many games that gather dust.


But outside of this forum everybody I see talking about 5e seem to treat it as literally the best and most inventive game ever released. 'Personality traits are amazing why didn't games do this before?' 'I love how rules light 5e is!' 'Fate, what's that? Why don't you just play D&D.'

People don't know game history, just look at how many "heartbreaker" "homebrews" try to re-invent the wheel.

What's more amazing to me is how many seem to regard 3.5 D&D/Pathfinder as some sort of standard.


Here's the thing, by choice I don't play D&D. I'll pay Unknown Armies, or GURPS, or Fate, or Traveller, or Savage Worlds. I have an entire bookshelf of RPGs I never get to play because people only want D&D.


Join the club.

I finally got to play my choice of RPG, Pendragon, more than 30 years after I fell in love with it.

25 years ago D&D (despite being popular 10 to 15 years before then) wasn't an option, your choices were sometimes Champions, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, but mostly if you wanted to game you could play the "any color you want as long as it's black" game of Vampire/World of Darkness, 20 years later those games are scarce.

Most aren't game dilletantes, and they just go with one game, two at the most, and they don't learn new rules and settings like you do AW.

I'd like to tell you that it will change, but I doubt it. What will change is in 10 or 20 years some other game will become popular and we can complain that no one will play anything but that.

So it was, so it will be.


The problem is, whenever people say they're want something, day psionics or Eberron they're told to shut up.


Heh.

Okay, to my shame, that cracks me up.

Most just don't want the work of adding those, though I've played with some who really want to play Artificers and Mystics, so your not alone.

I, however, who proposed a human barbarians, fighters, and rogues battle morlocks scenerio, most definitely am.

[GPyromania]

Two new class archetypes & new spells. Apparently one of the cantrips is a divination cantrip that sounds really cool.

[Corsair14]

I really think they could simply do a SCAG sized book and put the major early campaign settings. As someone said, the lore and fluff is out there already, much more than WoTC would ever reprint or redo. But there are many niggling details which should be updated. There are many new or alternative races that need to be updated for 5th. Giff, Dracon, all the various Draconian types, Hadozee, Scro, the two thrikreen-esque races from SJ, Irda, and a bunch I am missing or cant remember. Just one book-
Spelljammer- a few pages of fluff, updated races, updated ships and space rules as needed, ship to ship combat, new archtypes and proficiencies.
Dragonlance- A few pages of fluff talking about the timeline, the races, alternative classes(Solamnic knights orders, colored mages and moon effects)
Planescape- A few more pages of fluff, new races, new archetypes and feats
Ravenloft- Quick fluff on domains other than Barovia, new races, feats, and horror check system.

I would include Dark Sun but you need a whole Psionics book to go along with it so it really just needs its own book.

This would fulfil the new settingS for the year title and answer many people prayers. Now would WOTC do something this useful? Yeah right

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I really think they could simply do a SCAG sized book and put the major early campaign settings. As someone said, the lore and fluff is out there already, much more than WoTC would ever reprint or redo. But there are many niggling details which should be updated. There are many new or alternative races that need to be updated for 5th. Giff, Dracon, all the various Draconian types, Hadozee, Scro, the two thrikreen-esque races from SJ, Irda, and a bunch I am missing or cant remember. Just one book-
Spelljammer- a few pages of fluff, updated races, updated ships and space rules as needed, ship to ship combat, new archtypes and proficiencies.
Dragonlance- A few pages of fluff talking about the timeline, the races, alternative classes(Solamnic knights orders, colored mages and moon effects)
Planescape- A few more pages of fluff, new races, new archetypes and feats
Ravenloft- Quick fluff on domains other than Barovia, new races, feats, and horror check system.

I would include Dark Sun but you need a whole Psionics book to go along with it so it really just needs its own book.

This would fulfil the new settingS for the year title and answer many people prayers. Now would WOTC do something this useful? Yeah right

An essential and awesome piece of that book would be guidelines for converting between various editions, I think. "Dragonlance: use your old books. Here's how you convert Raistlin from AD&D to 5E."

[ZorroGames]

I really think they could simply do a SCAG sized book and put the major early campaign settings. As someone said, the lore and fluff is out there already, much more than WoTC would ever reprint or redo. But there are many niggling details which should be updated. There are many new or alternative races that need to be updated for 5th. Giff, Dracon, all the various Draconian types, Hadozee, Scro, the two thrikreen-esque races from SJ, Irda, and a bunch I am missing or cant remember. Just one book-
Spelljammer- a few pages of fluff, updated races, updated ships and space rules as needed, ship to ship combat, new archtypes and proficiencies.
Dragonlance- A few pages of fluff talking about the timeline, the races, alternative classes(Solamnic knights orders, colored mages and moon effects)
Planescape- A few more pages of fluff, new races, new archetypes and feats
Ravenloft- Quick fluff on domains other than Barovia, new races, feats, and horror check system.

I would include Dark Sun but you need a whole Psionics book to go along with it so it really just needs its own book.

This would fulfil the new settingS for the year title and answer many people prayers. Now would WOTC do something this useful? Yeah right

Your list of “a few pages” adds up in total to a major work to create in a format like you describe. Gamers can be cheap and you will hear “Why did they do “X” when they could have had more “Y” in the book?!” A new version of edition whining. Great. 🤨🤪🙄🤯

What is clear to grognards will be opaque to new players. Even playing from three thin booklet days I admit a lack of background (and caring/concern) for Ebberron and Dark Sun and little incentive for Spelljammer (well maybe as a standalone war game) as I also have no interest in recreating Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Birthright, yada, yada, yada.

Maztica, yes. An Egyptian setting, sure. An Asian continent setting, most likely.

I am happy to play this game as it stands currently. If I ever made my own world again, then a lot more would be cut than added.

[NRSASD]

I, however, who proposed a human barbarians, fighters, and rogues battle morlocks scenerio, most definitely am.

Where do I sign up?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Your list of “a few pages” adds up in total to a major work to create in a format like you describe. Gamers can be cheap and you will hear “Why did they do “X” when they could have had more “Y” in the book?!” A new version of edition whining. Great. 🤨🤪🙄🤯

What is clear to grognards will be opaque to new players. Even playing from three thin booklet days I admit a lack of background (and caring/concern) for Ebberron and Dark Sun and little incentive for Spelljammer (well maybe as a standalone war game) as I also have no interest in recreating Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Birthright, yada, yada, yada.

Maztica, yes. An Egyptian setting, sure. An Asian continent setting, most likely.

I am happy to play this game as it stands currently. If I ever made my own world again, then a lot more would be cut than added.

I think the unspoken assumption of that hypothetical book is that it'd be more about how to use your old 2/3/4E books to run 5E games. Brief fluff overview, conversion guidelines and new crunch for things that don't convert easily, like the Dragonlance moon-magic rules.

[Arkhios]

I think the unspoken assumption of that hypothetical book is that it'd be more about how to use your old 2/3/4E books to run 5E games. Brief fluff overview, conversion guidelines and new crunch for things that don't convert easily, like the Dragonlance moon-magic rules.

While definitely a noble idea, if that were to happen there'd still be a major uproar from those people who only started in 5e and/or don't own those 2/3/4e books (for any reason) to be able to run 5e games with them in the first place.

To pay around 40 to 50 €/$/£ for a book that basically tells you to "buy these dozens of old books which may or may not be available anywhere and each of which cost a similar amount of money" isn't my idea of fun or even financially great investment for the publisher nor the customers. As soon as the word gets out that it's a glorified catalogue of other books to buy, people stop buying that book, and that book itself may end up becoming a big net loss. To print a book (or rather, hundreds upon thousands of books) in the first place can't be done free of charge.

[ZorroGames]

It says something where the game that makes you play crazy obsessed people is probably the most sane...



Okay, 5e is a good game. Not a great one, not an outstanding, one, not a praiseworthy one, just a good one.

But outside of this forum everybody I see talking about 5e seem to treat it as literally the best and most inventive game ever released. 'Personality traits are amazing why didn't games do this before?' 'I love how rules light 5e is!' 'Fate, what's that? Why don't you just play D&D.'

Here's the thing, by choice I don't play D&D. I'll pay Unknown Armies, or GURPS, or Fate, or Traveller, or Savage Worlds. I have an entire bookshelf of RPGs I never get to play because people only want D&D.

The problem is, whenever people say they're want something, day psionics or Eberron they're told to shut up.

No doubt that on a 5e forum rants (not necessarily you) about other editions being better seem graceless and discourteous to some. 🤔

Actually I am one of those people who quit searching for the Nirvana of RPGs and just looked for one that satisfied my fantasy itch. 5e does that. Really do not give a flying **** about any other game or edition. I wish people well in those games/editions. 😇

Is 5e perfect? Hardly. 🙄

Is AL the end all, be all? Nope, it is just what I play currently. 😉

Are other editions better? Maybe but I sold off my 0D&D/AD&D stuff along with my unused 3.x and 4e materials because they do not interest me at all. 😳

Should people respond rudely to graceless rants (again, not necessarily you) about any previous editions? No but some do. Sorry about them. 🤨

As for people with no sense of history about who borrowed what from some other system, well, it reflects on the culture overall currently. And that edges towards politics and religion so I will voluntarily “shut up” on that. 😱

I respect your right to your opinion but I do not post on other editions forums about what needs to be “changed” (fixed) in their games and if my irritation about some people (not necessarily you) grinding their edition axes ad infinitum on this forum shows... I do not apologize (“... it is a sign of weakness,” Nathan Brittles,) for that. 🤠

Criticism is fair but wide ranging additions, subtractions, and changes are the realm of non-AL games ( hate the term “home brew” as if it was somehow tainted or lesser quality.). And there is nothing magical about AL games. It is just WOTC’s default position I think. 😦


And yes, sometimes I need metaphorical stitches in my tounge when I hear the ignorance about ‘innovation ‘ in 5e. That I totally understand. You are “all rounds in a half inch circle” on that matter. 😍

Who wants the soapbox next? 😆

[Anonymouswizard]

5e is a good enough game that being actually played by other people is what makes it a great game.

I own way too many games that gather dust.

True. It's just annoying that these days I never get to play anything else.

Even when the only other person able to run has a decent spurt of illness people aren't willing to crack out anything instead of 5e.


People don't know game history, just look at how many "heartbreaker" "homebrews" try to re-invent the wheel.

What's more amazing to me is how many seem to regard 3.5 D&D/Pathfinder as some sort of standard.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with taking anything. I don't mind that 5e has these mechanics, I'm annoyed that people act as if decade old (or older) mechanics are new and exciting just because D&D uses them now.


Join the club.

I finally got to play my choice of RPG, Pendragon, more than 30 years after I fell in love with it.

25 years ago D&D (despite being popular 10 to 15 years before then) wasn't an option, your choices were sometimes Champions, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, but mostly if you wanted to game you could play the "any color you want as long as it's black" game of Vampire/World of Darkness, 20 years later those games are scarce.

Most aren't game dilletantes, and they just go with one game, two at the most, and they don't learn new rules and settings like you do AW.

I'd like to tell you that it will change, but I doubt it. What will change is in 10 or 20 years some other game will become popular and we can complain that no one will play anything but that.

So it was, so it will be.

The worst part is, any game I'd like to play I'd love to run. Seriously, every game I kept hold of after my last purge is something where I've thought 'I want to run this', and those are the only games that I buy these days.

But you can provide the books, the paper, the pencils, the dice, and the campaign, and people will still want to know why you can't run 5e.

Thankfully my adventures in online dating have caused me to make a friend who might invite me to run a game some time down the line (as in, when we're actually close enough that meeting her wife wouldn't be weird, so months probably), and knows people with enough experience in different systems that playing other games shouldn't be a too tough sell.

Plus yes, I know I'm a weirdo who finds learning rules and settings fun :smallbiggrin:


Heh.

Okay, to my shame, that cracks me up.

Most just don't want the work of adding those, though I've played with some who really want to play Artificers and Mystics, so your not alone.

I think part of the problem is the 'everything is available' mentality D&D tends to generate, rather than the 'everything is optional' of other systems.


I, however, who proposed a human barbarians, fighters, and rogues battle morlocks scenerio, most definitely am.

That sounds awesome! When are you running it? Do you know of a wormhole between London and San Francisco?

[Chaosmancer]

As for people with no sense of history about who borrowed what from some other system, well, it reflects on the culture overall currently. And that edges towards politics and religion so I will voluntarily “shut up” on that. 😱


Who wants the soapbox next? 😆

I don't think we really need to go into religion or politics. Just look at movies.

With almost every classical movie you can point to an older movie or an older book that did similiar themes or stories first.

One I'm aware of is the "Magnificent Seven" I think, a classic cowboy movie that is a rehash of a Japanese samurai movie.

Then look at video games, Call of Duty got a lot of talk about an innovative leveling system, and they weren't the first to use levelling by a large margin.

If someone didn't know about "The Spirit" they might believe Batman was the first masked detective comicbook hero, simply because he was the oldest one they were aware of.

I don't think it detracts from anyone that someone else did something first.

[2D8HP]

Where do I sign up?


Cool that's one vote!


...That sounds awesome! When are you running it? Do you know of a wormhole between London and San Francisco?


Two votes, but a wormhole between London and San Francisco?

The only one that I know of is the one used by Malcolm McDowell to meet Mary Steenburgen (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mezl-bBa3Y)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

While definitely a noble idea, if that were to happen there'd still be a major uproar from those people who only started in 5e and/or don't own those 2/3/4e books (for any reason) to be able to run 5e games with them in the first place.

To pay around 40 to 50 €/$/£ for a book that basically tells you to "buy these dozens of old books which may or may not be available anywhere and each of which cost a similar amount of money" isn't my idea of fun or even financially great investment for the publisher nor the customers. As soon as the word gets out that it's a glorified catalogue of other books to buy, people stop buying that book, and that book itself may end up becoming a big net loss. To print a book (or rather, hundreds upon thousands of books) in the first place can't be done free of charge.

Which is why the bulk of the book is generic conversion stuff - because there's a ton of freely available 3E and 4E material on the WotC site - and worldbuilding material, empowering and assisting DMs in making the settings they want.

[Astofel]

While definitely a noble idea, if that were to happen there'd still be a major uproar from those people who only started in 5e and/or don't own those 2/3/4e books (for any reason) to be able to run 5e games with them in the first place.

To pay around 40 to 50 €/$/£ for a book that basically tells you to "buy these dozens of old books which may or may not be available anywhere and each of which cost a similar amount of money" isn't my idea of fun or even financially great investment for the publisher nor the customers. As soon as the word gets out that it's a glorified catalogue of other books to buy, people stop buying that book, and that book itself may end up becoming a big net loss. To print a book (or rather, hundreds upon thousands of books) in the first place can't be done free of charge.

I agree with all of this. It seems to me that 5e's main goal was not to draw older players away from their past editions, but to bring new blood into the hobby, and it looks like it's doing pretty well in that regard. Most of these new players don't know or care about previous settings, so publishing a book that amounts to 'here's a taste of setting info, go buy a bunch of old books if you want more' is a great way to alienate them.

[JackPhoenix]

I, however, who proposed a human barbarians, fighters, and rogues battle morlocks scenerio, most definitely am.

I third that I'd love to play that game. I'm tired of weirdos, special snowflakes and saving the world. Gimme a sword or an axe, a shield, some wilderness to explore and a bunch of orcs in an underground ruin whose layout doesn't make any sense, and I'm happy. And you can replace the orcs with apemen, cultists or bandits, if that mean less non-human sapients around.


Snip

You aren't the first to make that observation either.

Nihil sub sole novum

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm tired of weirdos, special snowflakes and saving the world. Gimme a sword or an axe, a shield, some wilderness to explore and a bunch of orcs in an underground ruin whose layout doesn't make any sense, and I'm happy. And you can replace the orcs with apemen, cultists or bandits, if that mean less non-human sapients around.

While I do still enjoy weirdos as characters, they really only work when the game is meant to be weird, which is not a D&D thing. I also very rarely get to play truly weird characters these days, but rarely get the chance to just play a melee bruiser either.

My current character is a wizard because the party needed a utility and battlefield control caster. The Warlock is a bit too combat focused, and might not go for pact of the tome, so having a god wizard in the party is actually useful to carry those rituals.

[Nifft]

Nihil sub sole novum

Just googled that: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nihil_sub_sole_novum

I love that the Latin phrase for "nothing is new under the sun" is just a vulgate translation from the original Hebrew.

[JackPhoenix]

Just googled that: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nihil_sub_sole_novum

I love that the Latin phrase for "nothing is new under the sun" is just a vulgate translation from the original Hebrew.

I'll be honest, I had to google that too, because I knew the english (and czech) proverb and knew there was a latin version, but didn't knew how it went.

I wonder whom the Israelites took it from...


While I do still enjoy weirdos as characters, they really only work when the game is meant to be weird, which is not a D&D thing. I also very rarely get to play truly weird characters these days, but rarely get the chance to just play a melee bruiser either.

My current character is a wizard because the party needed a utility and battlefield control caster. The Warlock is a bit too combat focused, and might not go for pact of the tome, so having a god wizard in the party is actually useful to carry those rituals.

In my group, there's one players who always plays melee warrior with a big weapon and heavy armor (and if not, he whines he'd rather played that, ex. his rogue in my current game), one who always tries to run some sort of gish (whether hexblade, bladesinger, melee fighter/cleric or current sorcadin) and one who usually wants to play something weird (super-naive paladin with a lack of common sense, insane druid/Madness (3rd party domain from somewhere) cleric/GOO lock multiclass, tiefling lore bard archaeologist with no common sense to speak off when it comes to aquiring new information, currently proposed tibbit monk). So when it comes to my characters, melee is covered, there's usually no healer or non-crazy spellcaster or face or someone who can deal with traps, so I'll generally make whatever covers the biggest weakness of the current party.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Honestly, originality is over-rated. I'd rather have familiar concepts packaged in an attractive and user-friendly package. And that's what I've gotten with 5e.

But about settings,

Dragonlance: has issues with licensing. Also basically unknown to modern gamers. With it's almost cartoonish alignment issues (and kender), it would require significant alterations to make fit. Also not too friendly to cross-over (pop in and pop out), as it's a setting that rewards deep dives.

Greyhawk: What does this do that FR doesn't? They're both generic, kitchen-sink settings. Only upside is that Greyhawk is a little less famous NPC heavy(?) Also has no name recognition among non-devotees.

Eberron: Has quite a following, but it's thematically very attached to 3e. Especially in the easy access to magical items. The strong fan-base is also a problem (as well as a benefit)--they react volcanically to any deviations from the "one true Eberron."

Planescape: This is a weird one. To really import Planescape in anything other than name and very high-level concept, you'd have to fix the cosmology to a very alignment-centric model. Has a lot of assumptions about the nature of things that would cause friction.

Spelljammer: This I could see working ok. A bit wild and weird, but otherwise not bad. Still has no name recognition.

Others? I don't know enough about any of the others to comment.

If they revamp any existing setting, I'd rather that they do it in the "it was always this way" reboot, rather than a FR-style update event. That way, you're hanging onto the name and the basic premises, but signal that you're going to make major changes if necessary.

[Knaight]

I agree with all of this. It seems to me that 5e's main goal was not to draw older players away from their past editions, but to bring new blood into the hobby, and it looks like it's doing pretty well in that regard. Most of these new players don't know or care about previous settings, so publishing a book that amounts to 'here's a taste of setting info, go buy a bunch of old books if you want more' is a great way to alienate them.

It really has done well there - though how much of that is 5e as a game is questionable. There are a fair few factors right now that work out so well for bringing in an influx of new players, with 5e being designed to be approachable, the rise of streaming creating much more visible actual plays which lower the barrier to entry significantly (just having seen something done makes it so much easier to do), the general mainstreaming of fantasy, etc.

This giant pile of new blood does suggest different products than you'd expect for editions that are basically just updates for the player base, and given that I get re-releasing older settings with more polish. That said, "go buy a bunch of old books if you want more" can be handled gracefully. A setting primer for a lot of different settings and a curated, organized list of books for settings with ebook files (even just .pdf) available could work very well. I'm pretty sure WotC owns the treasure trove of 2e settings, and they could very much attract people if made more visible.

[Naanomi]

The other four ‘big’ Campaign settings you missed (I’d argue) are Mystara, Birthright, Darksun, and Ravenloft. Council of Wyrms also has name recognition

I miss Savage Coast as well (one of my best childhood games was based on Red Steel)

[Corsair14]

Well then if they don't want to pollute the system with Volo's Book of Campaign World updates then at least allow a third party to publish under the name for those of use who don't have the time to do our own balanced crossovers. Most of the older fluff books and such you can most likely find free online. I have all of Spelljammer and most Dragonlance sourcebooks on my phone and a disc with all of Ravenloft and Dark sun. Its actually very easy to get hold of.

So if we aren't going to get a complete book of the good settings(which I never honestly expected) then I am curious as to what kind of world we are going to get to diverge from the Forgettable Generic Realms. Personally I would love a war-torn and broken down world with very low magic and epicness, kind of a cross between Midnight, Melnibone, and Conan, with Vikings.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The other four ‘big’ Campaign settings you missed (I’d argue) are Mystara, Birthright, Darksun, and Ravenloft. Council of Wyrms also has name recognition

I miss Savage Coast as well (one of my best childhood games was based on Red Steel)

I totally forgot Dark Sun and Ravenloft. Mystara and Birthright I don't know enough about to comment.

Dark Sun: This one has potential, but is odd for a drop-in, drop-out adventure (due to Althas's closed-off nature). Very different thematics. Would be interesting to see how it transfers.

Ravenloft: They've already hit one sub-area here (Barovia). I could see this as a series of adventures, but I think its unlikely for this publication (because they did CoS not too long ago and this might not count as a "new setting").

[2D8HP]

I third that I'd love to play that game. I'm tired of weirdos, special snowflakes and saving the world. Gimme a sword or an axe, a shield, some wilderness to explore and a bunch of orcs in an underground ruin whose layout doesn't make any sense, and I'm happy. And you can replace the orcs with apemen, cultists or bandits, if that mean less non-human sapients around...


Three votes!

:cool:


This makes me happy.

[Derpaligtr]

While I do still enjoy weirdos as characters, they really only work when the game is meant to be weird, which is not a D&D thing. I also very rarely get to play truly weird characters these days, but rarely get the chance to just play a melee bruiser either.

My current character is a wizard because the party needed a utility and battlefield control caster. The Warlock is a bit too combat focused, and might not go for pact of the tome, so having a god wizard in the party is actually useful to carry those rituals.

You may not get to play weird characters, but weird characters is the name of the game.

With no special rules on who can be what, this game begs for those front line Gnome Fighters in full plate with a shield and a rapier.

Also, in 5e (when a DM does their job half way decently), you don't need any specific class. You can go at it with 3 rogues, 4 warlocks that are all the same build, or any combination of characters. The selection to make a wizard wasn't a need, but a want.

[Knaight]

Three votes!

:cool:


This makes me happy.

Four votes. I'll play and run all sorts of ridiculous gonzo stuff, but I'm also very down for a much lower fantasy game where everyone plays some sort of warrior, which all three classes nicely cover. Plus if you want to go mage they also provide that, and without actual mage classes there for comparison they come across as incredibly capable magicians.

[Naanomi]

I wonder if a spell-less ranger could fit in there. A guy with his attack dog would be a cool character for a mundane campaign

[MeeposFire]

I totally forgot Dark Sun and Ravenloft. Mystara and Birthright I don't know enough about to comment.

Dark Sun: This one has potential, but is odd for a drop-in, drop-out adventure (due to Althas's closed-off nature). Very different thematics. Would be interesting to see how it transfers.

Ravenloft: They've already hit one sub-area here (Barovia). I could see this as a series of adventures, but I think its unlikely for this publication (because they did CoS not too long ago and this might not count as a "new setting").

Mystara was the setting for the original D&D game which culminated in the Rules Cyclopedia. It is another broad fantasy setting that tries to fit all sorts of things into it like Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and FR. Personally I find it more fun than Greyhawk and Dragonlance and while it does have history it has less detail than say FR (both as a good thing and not as good thing).

[Naanomi]

Mystara technically encompasses savage coast, Blackmoore, hollow earth, and its own stuff. Unique in that it had no Gods, only ascended ‘immortals’... and rules for Epic Level PC advancement to become these Immortals themselves

Shadow over Mystara was a cool arcade game

[2D8HP]

Four votes. I'll play and run all sorts of ridiculous gonzo stuff, but I'm also very down for a much lower fantasy game where everyone plays some sort of warrior, which all three classes nicely cover. Plus if you want to go mage they also provide that, and without actual mage classes there for comparison they come across as incredibly capable magicians.


Awesome!

And it would be an honor to play in one of your games (I think a session of Hollow Earth would top my list).


I wonder if a spell-less ranger could fit in there. A guy with his attack dog would be a cool character for a mundane campaign


Yes, and even a standard first level PHB Ranger would fit what I have in mind.

The real question is: Why use 5e WD&D?

For, what compared to a lot of D&D would be called "low fantasy" why run a "Vikings vs. Morlocks" type scenerio with 5e when other systems could work?

Of the top of my head, besides old TD&D, a kinda-sorta-but-not-quite "retro-clone" like Lamentations of the Flame Princess could work, as could a BRP game like Mythic Iceland, or Stormbringer, and even Pathfinder could work. So what would make 5e a better choice, especially when I would red line a lot of it (no Tabaxi Bladesingers!)?

Well I see two advantages in 5e:

1) Lots of fresh players who are comfortable and familiar with it.

2) As mentioned in the 5e is great (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561009-5e-is-great&goto=newpost) thread, the default is towards PC survival.

And that's no small thing, as while I'd want they players to feel some risk, I'm not eager to run "medieval Paranoia.

[EvilAnagram]

Lamentations of the Flame Princess

Can we all agree that is one of the best names for an RPG. The game itself is fine, but gods do I love that name.

[SirGraystone]

A new possibility is Magic the Gathering Plane Shift, Wizards already put a few pdf on different plane.

[Luccan]

A new possibility is Magic the Gathering Plane Shift, Wizards already put a few pdf on different plane.

If it's intended to be an entirely new setting (at least to D&D) I could see an official book, maybe. To be honest, my objection to it is a bit unfair but one I could see being fairly common: I don't play MtG and what I know of it in no way makes me interested in as an RPG setting. Maybe in a system geared toward its own unique quirks, but I don't think 5e has anything like that.

Thinking on it, I want a brand new setting. They can give me Thri-kreen and Psions or Warforged and Artificers later. I'd like a new setting book that adds unique, setting-specific elements to the game. Give me a 5e setting.

[Anonymouswizard]

You may not get to play weird characters, but weird characters is the name of the game.

With no special rules on who can be what, this game begs for those front line Gnome Fighters in full plate with a shield and a rapier.

That's not weird. Suboptimal, but not weird.

Weird is the homeless magician who manipulates clichés. The intelligent blueberry muffin (with or without psychic powers). The 1" metal cube that controls a liquid metal mecha suit. A superhero with the ability to control alcohol and turn into a glass. A gnome Fighter in full plate is something that would exist if the real world had gnomes.


Also, in 5e (when a DM does their job half way decently), you don't need any specific class. You can go at it with 3 rogues, 4 warlocks that are all the same build, or any combination of characters. The selection to make a wizard wasn't a need, but a want.

That was true in 0e, Basic, 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e as well (4e encouraged one of every role, but it worked without it). It's not something special that has suddenly appeared, the all rogue party was a thing in any edition.

[Unoriginal]

they really only work when the game is meant to be weird, which is not a D&D thing.

Being weird is not a D&D thing? So I guess the Flumpfs, Nilbogs, Intellect Devourers, eternally young innkeepers, time-traveling squid-face aliens, creatures born in nightmares, etc, were just a fever dream I had.

[EvilAnagram]

Being weird is not a D&D thing? So I guess the Flumpfs, Nilbogs, Intellect Devourers, eternally young innkeepers, time-traveling squid-face aliens, creatures born in nightmares, etc, were just a fever dream I had.

Oh come on. Those things are normal as chameleon pie.

[Anonymouswizard]

Being weird is not a D&D thing? So I guess the Flumpfs, Nilbogs, Intellect Devourers, eternally young innkeepers, time-traveling squid-face aliens, creatures born in nightmares, etc, were just a fever dream I had.

Compared to other games I own, that's quite normal.

But in all seriousness, most of D&D's weird is isolated, not a key component of the setting. The weirdness of time travelling squids is certainly weird, but it's mainly isolated to the underdark. You can very easily go through an entire D&D campaign without encountering the weird, unless you're playing Spelljammer and to a lesser extent Planescape, unless we're talking about the tendency of PCs to go everywhere heavily armed, kill random people because they want their stuff, and never bathe.

As a side note, I once got a whole session out of the town guard asking the 3rd level PCs to please find somewhere safe they could leave their weapons, if they wanted the guards have a room set aside for this (although you can keep a dagger or other small weapon). The amount of times the players ran away instead of giving up their perfectly mundane, mainly looted weapons was priceless.

What D&D is is silly. Sorry, I know that sounds stupid, but to me the difference between weird and silly is how core it is to the game or setting. A crazy homeless mage looking to locate Churchill's tie? That's silly. A whole Occult Underground of magicians and normal people who are driven to achieve stuff and tend towards craziness? That's weird.

[Unoriginal]

Well I agree that D&D is silly (which is a good thing), but I don't know if I can agree with your definition of weird vs silly.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

What D&D is is silly. Sorry, I know that sounds stupid, but to me the difference between weird and silly is how core it is to the game or setting. A crazy homeless mage looking to locate Churchill's tie? That's silly. A whole Occult Underground of magicians and normal people who are driven to achieve stuff and tend towards craziness? That's weird.

So... D&D is weird, depending on the setting, with its whole occult underground of wizards driven to achieve mad insane things. To the extent that 5E has a meta-plot, it's driven entirely by cults and other associations of mad lunatics driven to achieve dangerous occult goals. Princes of the Apocalypse is literally just that in campaign form. Out of the Abyss is about dealing with the fallout after they succeed. And these organizations may not take center stage in other adventures but they're all tied together. Meanwhile, "I'm an intelligent psychic blueberry muffin" isn't weird; it's obtuse and silly.

I'll posit that the dividing line between weird and silly you're trying to identify is about storytelling function. Weird is a category of story. Silly is an occurrence, however frequent, unrelated to larger themes. Players struggling against a rising tide of semidivine madness in a reality fraying at the edges is weird. Player is a chicken slaad sand witch in a game about rescuing a princess from a dragon is silly.

[2D8HP]

Greyhawk: What does this do that FR doesn't? .


Greyhawk has Murlynd, which is a strike against Greyhawk.

On the plus side, Greyhawk doesn't have:

Drizzt,

Elminster,

or the

Harpers


Nentir Vale is looking better and better to me.

[dreast]

Having just gotten MToF yesterday and flipped through it a bit, Planescape just seems more and more likely. The book gives a full, loving description of the Blood War, and the entry on the steel predator flat out mentions a hexton living in Sigil... and hextons don't actually exist yet. I'm definitely calling a Great Modron March/Dead Gods adventure here, with (FINALLY) some higher order Modron stat blocks along for the ride.

[Saintheart]

Anyone voted for Rich Burlew's unpublished setting yet???? :smallbiggrin:

[EvilAnagram]

Greyhawk has Murlynd, which is a strike against Greyhawk.

On the plus side, Greyhawk doesn't have:

Drizzt,

Elminster,

or the

Harpers


Nentir Vale is looking better and better to me.

Nentir Vale has something that few other settings bother with: empty spaces to fill in. In a game about exploration, that is incredibly important.

Also, cities of ghost dwarves!

[Glorthindel]

The real question is: Why use 5e WD&D?

For, what compared to a lot of D&D would be called "low fantasy" why run a "Vikings vs. Morlocks" type scenerio with 5e when other systems could work?

Of the top of my head, besides old TD&D, a kinda-sorta-but-not-quite "retro-clone" like Lamentations of the Flame Princess could work, as could a BRP game like Mythic Iceland, or Stormbringer, and even Pathfinder could work. So what would make 5e a better choice, especially when I would red line a lot of it (no Tabaxi Bladesingers!)?


My game of choice when I want to go a bit more low fantasy is WFRP. Sure, the Warhammer world can be as high fantasy as any other, but the RPG does tends to stick to the street level, down in the gutter struggles of the more average man (and halfling).

The new edition on the horizon is definitely causing me sleepless nights.

[Anonymouswizard]

So... D&D is weird, depending on the setting, with its whole occult underground of wizards driven to achieve mad insane things. To the extent that 5E has a meta-plot, it's driven entirely by cults and other associations of mad lunatics driven to achieve dangerous occult goals. Princes of the Apocalypse is literally just that in campaign form. Out of the Abyss is about dealing with the fallout after they succeed. And these organizations may not take center stage in other adventures but they're all tied together. Meanwhile, "I'm an intelligent psychic blueberry muffin" isn't weird; it's obtuse and silly.

Okay, half the point was meant to be implying that this is going to be personal, hence the muffin. But honestly, Occult Underground was supposed to point out that, no matter how strange D&D wizards can be, they won't be as weird as ones in a setting where being a wizard makes you automatically a part of the occult underground.

The other problem with weird is that it, well, changes. I'm so used to apocalyptic cults in fantasy that they feel normal compared to the crazy group of wizards attempting to summon socialism to the realm (to take a relatively mundane example that is bizarre). I think we should agree to disagree on this point though.


I'll posit that the dividing line between weird and silly you're trying to identify is about storytelling function. Weird is a category of story. Silly is an occurrence, however frequent, unrelated to larger themes. Players struggling against a rising tide of semidivine madness in a reality fraying at the edges is weird. Player is a chicken slaad sand witch in a game about rescuing a princess from a dragon is silly.

That makes sense as well.


EDIT: I honestly would love to see Nentir Vale updated to 5e. It's close enough in tone to 4e, it can mention the power sources fluff and how Clerics/Paladins and Druids/Rangers use different types of magic, and would be a fun setting to explore.

[Naanomi]

Nentir Vale has something that few other settings bother with: empty spaces to fill in. In a game about exploration, that is incredibly important.
Mystara was a lot of empty space as well... in a lot of ways it is similar to Nentir Vale (an empty setting filled in mostly with specific adventure paths)

[Nifft]

Dragonlance: has issues with licensing. Also basically unknown to modern gamers. With it's almost cartoonish alignment issues (and kender), it would require significant alterations to make fit. Also not too friendly to cross-over (pop in and pop out), as it's a setting that rewards deep dives.

Greyhawk: What does this do that FR doesn't? They're both generic, kitchen-sink settings. Only upside is that Greyhawk is a little less famous NPC heavy(?) Also has no name recognition among non-devotees.

Eberron: Has quite a following, but it's thematically very attached to 3e. Especially in the easy access to magical items. The strong fan-base is also a problem (as well as a benefit)--they react volcanically to any deviations from the "one true Eberron."

Planescape: This is a weird one. To really import Planescape in anything other than name and very high-level concept, you'd have to fix the cosmology to a very alignment-centric model. Has a lot of assumptions about the nature of things that would cause friction.

Spelljammer: This I could see working ok. A bit wild and weird, but otherwise not bad. Still has no name recognition.

Others? I don't know enough about any of the others to comment.

If they revamp any existing setting, I'd rather that they do it in the "it was always this way" reboot, rather than a FR-style update event. That way, you're hanging onto the name and the basic premises, but signal that you're going to make major changes if necessary. Dragonlance - was 2e tropes played straight & honest. It doesn't age well because those tropes have largely been outgrown.

Greyhawk - actually has a lot to offer, but that's in terms of substance and process rather than marketing material. From a marketing perspective, you're right -- it's got a lot of visually similarity to FR, and that's a detriment since FR has already covered that marketing niche. What does Greyhawk offer?
- Blank spots on the map. Heck, the largest named region is the Sea of Dust, a literal post-apocalyptic wasteland full of the treasures of an evil Magocracy.
- High-level NPCs who are targets, not parents or managers. Greyhawk NPCs are not watching over you, not directing you, and you don't have to obey them. They're busy with their own stuff, or they're a problem and someone should do something about them.
- Named spots on the map aren't expended novel plots noted for nostalgia, they're mysterious hooks about which nobody knows the truth. Most of the the named sites are more "blank spots".
- Well-established precedent for PCs leaving their mark on the setting. Melf, Rary, Otto, Otiluke, Mordenkeinen, Bigby - these were just PCs who invented spells. Your PC can do the same thing. Your PC's name can become part of the setting's lore. (I've done this in my own games.)
- Huge swaths of the setting are "militantly neutral". They aren't evil, but they aren't going to go out of their way to be good. They're just trying to get by, and they're heavily armed & organized so they do a pretty decent job of getting by most of the time. The setting includes cosmic good & evil, but most people are neither.
- Gods are mysterious. They're real -- some ascended as mortals and they're the best documented, since they spent a lot of time on Oerth as mortals -- but mainly they don't interfere, don't lay down plot-rails for you to follow, and don't demand that you pick exactly one of them. In setting, religions syncretism is a valid thing, and you don't see a single uniform pantheon as you cross the Flanaess. The people in the setting ponder the truth of gods even as they know gods are real, because the setting allows that much mystery & wonder.
- WEIRD STUFF HAPPENS. Spaceships crash, go find ray-guns and power armor which will work for a while (until the batteries run out). Mountains populated by strange crystalline hive-minds make contact. Dark elves entice giants to attack. Some golems are actually ancient robots, and the lightning artifact you need to complete the quest is being used as a power source for an alien's life-support system. There's an isolated valley where dinosaurs still roam. Greyhawk isn't a harmonious kitchen sink, it's a sink where genres are actively battling each other for survival.

Eberron - takes a lot of the good stuff from Greyhawk (like named sites which are blank spots, preserving the mystery of the divine, militant neutrals, well-mapped blank spots, NPCs who don't overpower PCs, no popular novelizations, etc.) and adds a more modern look & feel. Plus, it's done a better job of isolating the myriad genres which are supported.
- Want to be a neutral greedy capitalist? Great, here's a Dragonmarked House trade war adventure.
- Want to save the world? Great, here's a Daelkyr / Overlord / Quori / (etc.) invasion adventure.
- Want to be a ruin-delving murder-hobo? Great, here's a bunch of ruins from the Last War, and a bunch of ruins from the Daelkyr invasion, and here's Xen'drik.
- Want to be a film-noir detective? Great, here's a bunch of cities full of intrigue (basically every detailed city, some exceptions exist).
- Want to be a secret agent on the national scale? Great, here's Five Nations which don't like each other much, or here's the whole continent of Sarlona, or maybe you're a (gnome/changeling/dragon agent) and you're spying on everyone.
- Want to be Indiana Jones? Great, you're fighting totally-not-Nazis (Inspired / Dragon Below cultists / Emerald Claw / etc.) on a train, and the MacGuffin probably does belong in a museum.
- Want to be an outsider searching for the meaning of your unnatural life, while fighting prejudice? Great, here's your Warforged / Shifter / Daelkyr Half-Blood / Kalishtar / aberrant Dragonmark bearer / etc.

Planescape - If my memory serves, the thing about Planescape is not so much alignment is true as it is belief shapes reality. What I recall from e.g. Planescape:Torment is that changes in local belief results in changed local planar geography. So maybe the current arrangement by alignment is just how belief has shaped the current planes, and a sufficiently persuasive argument could re-shape the planes tomorrow. If that's accurate, it gives a lot more leeway for weirdness & mystery & wonder.


I totally forgot Dark Sun and Ravenloft. Mystara and Birthright I don't know enough about to comment.

Dark Sun: This one has potential, but is odd for a drop-in, drop-out adventure (due to Althas's closed-off nature). Very different thematics. Would be interesting to see how it transfers.

Ravenloft: They've already hit one sub-area here (Barovia). I could see this as a series of adventures, but I think its unlikely for this publication (because they did CoS not too long ago and this might not count as a "new setting"). Mystara - IIRC it's got a thing about how gods are all just ascended mortals, and that's cool because it gives a career goal for high-level PCs.

Dark Sun - Awesome in my nostalgic memories, but rather self-contained. Excellent if you like wilderness survival in the desert, but 5e seems to have removed a lot of the resource-tracking which that sort of adventure needs. I think it would require a significant revision to the 5e rules just in terms of genre support, and that's before we look at what's necessary to make Defiler / Preserver a meaningful decision for PCs.

Ravenloft - This can be supported out of the box. It's also genre-limited, but the genre is more friendly to 5e, since horror and combat go well together. Heh, and the short rest mechanic of Warlocks is great in a horror game where you might not get 8 hours of peace regularly -- it's almost like the Dark Powers want you to make pacts.



Nentir Vale has something that few other settings bother with: empty spaces to fill in. In a game about exploration, that is incredibly important.

Also, cities of ghost dwarves!


Mystara was a lot of empty space as well... in a lot of ways it is similar to Nentir Vale (an empty setting filled in mostly with specific adventure paths)

I suspect that every setting which isn't heavily novelized has this perk.

Greyhawk and Eberron certainly do share it.

[mgshamster]

Planescape - If my memory serves, the thing about Planescape is not so much alignment is true as it is belief shapes reality. What I recall from e.g. Planescape:Torment is that changes in local belief results in changed local planar geography. So maybe the current arrangement by alignment is just how belief has shaped the current planes, and a sufficiently persuasive argument could re-shape the planes tomorrow. If that's accurate, it gives a lot more leeway for weirdness & mystery & wonder.

That is exactly right.

[EvilAnagram]

I suspect that every setting which isn't heavily novelized has this perk.

Greyhawk and Eberron certainly do share it.
That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!

Obviously, there are exceptions, but they tend to follow those themes.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!

Obviously, there are exceptions, but they tend to follow those themes.

Dragonlance is in the Greyhawk style, but I think there's a major exception - the existing kingdoms aren't really filled with good or decent people. The active intervention of the good and decent is necessary, because the people are kind of jerks, and they'll fall for whatever snake oil evil is selling every single time. There's more moral nuance than that setting gets credit for because of its assumption that the people are fallen.

[DanyBallon]

That's a good point. I think the key differences in these classic fantasy settings are in the fundamental assumptions of the settings. In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people. In Nentir Vale, the kingdoms of good and decent people have fallen, and you're just trying to keep the remnants alive. In Mystara, there is treasure out there!

Obviously, there are exceptions, but they tend to follow those themes.

While this is true, what I like from Greyhawk, is that good nation can and will go at war against other good nation as well because they have different view on something, or just because a nation wants ressources from it's neighbour, just like it happen in our world. While Greyhawk have as much fantastic elements as FR, the feel is closer to a medieval fantasy setting.

[Nifft]

In Greyhawk, you usually end up fighting against evil to preserve the kingdoms of good and decent people.

In Greyhawk, the kings can be the most evil things around, and someone ought to do something about them.

The people might be decent, but they're generally neutral rather than good -- they're not cosmopolitan, they're not accepting of outsiders, they're not tolerant of strange religions or weird magic -- they're just people.

The natives who have been marginalized were not particularly noble savages. They were horrific necromancers and godly druids. The immigrants displacing them weren't particularly noble either -- they're either evil wizards and their pawns, or mercenary warrior-clans which rose up as robber-barons and then tyrant-kings. There are different natives in the southern jungles, but they're not noble either -- they're the ones using blood-magic.

You can ignore those gritty elements, and play it as a cartoon-morality heroic high fantasy romp if you want, but that's NOT the setting's default mode.

Paladins and Rangers were rare -- you had to roll really well -- while Thieves were common.

The default mode is that you're a treasure-hunting grave-robber.