If you were a Wizard...

[Xar Zarath]

So based on a previous thread, let's see what the responses are to this one.

If you were a 20th level Wizard ( DnD or PF, up to you) would you use your magic to help only yourself and your family? or would you help the world and all of its people?

If you only keep your magic to yourself, why?

If you want to help the world, why?

(However a rule is that you are unable to teach others your magic, others cannot gain any Wizard and or any other classes due to some magic fiat)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm a lvl 20 wizard in an otherwise non-magical world?

Well I suppose that since I'm basically a god, I may as well act the part. I'mma put together a powerful spy network to supplement my divination magic and extensive knowledge and use it to manipulate... everything until the world is a much better place to live. I've got basically forever to work out the kinks so I'll take it slow and careful to minimize collateral damage but there's a -lot- to do. Probably take a millennium or more.

[Quertus]

So based on a previous thread, let's see what the responses are to this one.

If you were a 20th level Wizard ( DnD or PF, up to you) would you use your magic to help only yourself and your family? or would you help the world and all of its people?

If you only keep your magic to yourself, why?

If you want to help the world, why?

(However a rule is that you are unable to teach others your magic, others cannot gain any Wizard and or any other classes due to some magic fiat)

Um, in this world? In a D&D world?

Me, with my history and personality and background, suddenly gets the powers of a 20th level wizard in this world?

Well, I'd hide my powers, and flee from this world before I was murdered.

A lot of divination later, I might send something (a simulacrum, maybe?) back to help my family or this world. But, honestly, short of planetary Mindrape, I expect this world to be too resistant to being helped for my efforts to matter.

In a D&D world? Growing up with as close to my personality as possible? I expect other me to be as myopic as most D&D Wizards, unless, during Exploration, I encounter something that screams "better the world" to my specific personality and experience.

... Unless you correctly count "murder all the gods" as helping the world. Then, yes, I'd definitely help the world.

[BowStreetRunner]

Basically what Gandalf and Galadriel imply when they reject the offer of the One Ring. Benevolent intent gradually slipping into tyranny.

[Vizzerdrix]

I help myself. Im of the opinion that solving the problems of others only encourges them to not solve any of their other issues. Maybe Ill assist, but only as I choose, so rarely and at great cost. Otherwise Imma build an army and take some space for myself.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Considering how abusable repeating traps are, and how malleable magic makes the universe, I think I'd focus on immediately fixing problems that are practically impossible to fix otherwise (such as the massive ecological damage currently leading towards a comprehensive collapse of the planet's biosphere), and then offer ridunkulous incentives to push everyone on the planet to work together to fix everything that can be manually fixed to push humanity into being a lot more responsible with its actions. Oust the people currently in power, and install others with more intelligent/benevolent and less overwhelmingly stupid/selfish goals.

Of course, I'd do so from behind a few shell corporations and sock-puppet mouthpieces, as paranoia is practically required to be a successful wizard, whether in a D&D world or the real one. I'd ensure that their goals aligned with mine, give them the tools to fix everything and keep it that way, and then I'd let them get to it, sticking around mainly to help when it becomes necessary.

I have no desire to rule the world as it's normally considered when I could let someone else rule it for me, though I honestly doubt one could tell the difference from the outside.

[Mato]

Q: If you were a Wizard...
A: I'd also pick up immorality in some way. Then to entertain my self I'd convince an arrogant king he needs to invent his own church only to later convince some other guys to move away and form their own country.

Actually I'd pretty much just be Lucifer. Trading favors in an attempt to make the world a better place, and failing that at least populate Mars with better people.

[Jack_Simth]

Q: If you were a Wizard...
A: I'd also pick up immorality in some way.This is much more straightforward in Pathfinder than in D&D. In Pathfinder, you can just take that arcane grand discovery. Additionally, the Create Demiplane line explicitly includes the ability to mess with the time trait - make it timeless with respect to aging, permanency it, then Astral Project out. Your copy will age (unless you also take the grand discovery...), but you reset whenever you want (and have decent death insurance, but you will want a way to access Restoration or it's Greater sibling).

As to what to do? If I suddenly inherited Wiz-20 powers, I'd probably start by pretending - for a time, at least - that nothing happened while I got used to the idea.

After that? Hard to say.

[DMVerdandi]

So based on a previous thread, let's see what the responses are to this one.

If you were a 20th level Wizard ( DnD or PF, up to you) would you use your magic to help only yourself and your family? or would you help the world and all of its people?
I'd do Pathfinder wizard class, but with 3.5 feats and spell access. Then Variant multi class Psychic sorcerer, and take the Psychic Mage ACF from DSP.
Now I am casting psion powers and Wizard spells as psychic spells. [Delish].
As far as feats, I'd spend them on spell mastery so I don't have to take my book everywhere.

As for who I would help, I would do it in stages. First me. Above all, what I need to do is obtain money, because it will help in covering up my magical shenanigans, since everyone would think; "Well, He's rich, that's how he did it."

-I'd first buff all my stats as high as possible and use permanency to keep it running, and use divination and enchantment spells to climb really fast socially. I'd probably change my species to elan. I would also research a few new spells that would be very helpful for modern living. Definitely would look towards creating a greater scholars touch, probably at 9th level, so that I would be able to read and comprehend any text in any language, and permanently store the information in my brain.

-Would monstrous thrall+ Geas a bunch of powerful people
-Start my own security/contracting business to put all these great combat buffs to use.
-Have a bunch of angel investors [my thralls] invest, and increase financial clout.
-Move into different sectors from those initial investments, and start a mega corporation
-From mega corporation, legitimately start foray into politics
-...World domination.



If you want to help the world, why?
Well, even though world domination sounds bad, really, the world is already bad without my help. So adding structure and organization to it, would greatly benefit everyone. Social and environmental reform would be great, and we could finally without others arguing, share resources so we can all survive and live happier lives.



(However a rule is that you are unable to teach others your magic, others cannot gain any Wizard and or any other classes due to some magic fiat)
That's fine. Finally, with [I]Detect Thoughts, I would be able to know what people were thinking.
Actually, I would also probably spend about a year not going full lelouch and really self actualizing before I started those plans. Spell research, working a standard job, slaying huns, and being free before I started down the golden path.

Teleport would be a fantastic spell just for traveling. And finally with comprehend languages, I could make friends and experience the richness of foreign cultures to the max.
Then I would use Hindsight to learn about history as well.

Really, It just sounds like Goethe's Faust.

[BowStreetRunner]

...I'd also pick up immorality in some way...Actually I'd pretty much just be Lucifer...For a moment, I thought you said immortality. But immorality would probably be much more fun!

[Mato]

For a moment, I thought you said immortality. But immorality would probably be much more fun!:smallbiggrin:

[Erit]

I think everyone's forgetting the all-important question; what's our hypothetical Int score for this exercise?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think everyone's forgetting the all-important question; what's our hypothetical Int score for this exercise?

11 points higher than it is now in relatively short order. Crafting a headband of intellect +6 and a set of 5 scrolls of wish are priority.

[Celestia]

I think everyone's forgetting the all-important question; what's our hypothetical Int score for this exercise?
Presumably high enough to actually use those spells, so let's say 19. Plus 11 from the previous post.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, polymorph any objecting twice to permanently become a sarrukh, then magic jaring into a human body would allow you to have a base 30 Int before buffs and other bonuses...

[Eldest]

Honestly? Break the world. Screw ecological damage, screw scarcity based economics, screw inequality, screw warfare, screw the idea that you have to do something to be worth something, screw the idea that differences are bad. I'd probably let there be an area where people can do whatever, but overall yeah it'd be world domination from a (hopefully) benevolent angle.

[Nifft]

The power of a level 20 Wizard, with all the spells, all the power to fix things, and no competition?

I would benevolent tyrant so hard.

[flappeercraft]

Honestly I out of boredom would just get TO crap into myself and create Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, etc and just go GTA style on all of them.

[Stryyke]

This is an easy one for me. I would hide my abilities, and use them to learn all the things. Ruling the world is way too much work. People always asking you for magical help: people trying assassinate you: people trying to capture you to study you. Blah. No thanks.

I would keep it to myself and get good at everything. Learn everything. I'd likely do some benevolent acts, but I would definitely use my powers to become rich. What fun is living forever if you can't play!?

[Vizzerdrix]

I have best idea. Id polymorph everyone into ferrets, thus creating a perfect civilization where socks and crinkly tubes are currency.

[Lord Raziere]

Honestly? Break the world. Screw ecological damage, screw scarcity based economics, screw inequality, screw warfare, screw the idea that you have to do something to be worth something, screw the idea that differences are bad. I'd probably let there be an area where people can do whatever, but overall yeah it'd be world domination from a (hopefully) benevolent angle.

To be honest, I'd probably do the same. I'm against optimization because its in games where I prefer to play specific concepts and go for thrills rather than go for breaking the world.

In real life? Go full worldbreaker, and do not care what anyone says about it, things need to be changed and if this would be the only avenue available to me to get rid of so much suffering, so be it.

and when I'm done and are reasonably sure that the new fixed state of the world can function without me? go back to having fun with roleplaying and videogames, get immortality and try to write the fantasy books I want. maybe set up some contingency emergency plans to get called back into action if something big enough happens that I need to intervene and fix everything again.

[AvatarVecna]

Whatever my current 1st lvl feat is, DCS it into Wedded To History to become immortal. Plane Shift to Abyss/Hell and murder to make up lost XP.

Use spells/items to boost my CL to 22 and to buff up my face skills (particularly Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive) for long enough to last several minutes. Gate in two Solars.

Explain to them that this world without magic is full of hate and fear and ignorance, and needs the guiding hand of heaven's light but won't accept what they feel is "outside influence" - even a holy one, unless they are tricked into it. Propose a plan to them where you will kidnap the politicians/media moguls/CEOs in power, use magic to implant the leader's memories into the solar, and have the Solar replace the kidnapped leader (who will have their mind completely wiped and their body transmuted into that of a baby, at which point the ex-leader will replace an infant who died at birth). The Solars will take the place of the leader either until something occurs to the Solar that would/should kill the "human" they're pretending to be, or until they have lived long enough as that human that it's reasonable they would've died from old age. At that point, their part in the contract is complete. Turning both presumably-Indifferent creatures to Helpful in this will require two DC 30 Diplomacy checks (should be quite doable for a wizard of my caliber, particular with pre-buffs).

As part of the process for turning the Solars into leaders (to make sure they trust the deal), I will alter the memories of one Solar, at which point the unaltered one will check them over for less altruistic modifications; once they are satisfied with my memory-implant, I will implant into that one while the other now-trusted one watches and checks them over in turn. In both cases, I will be rearranging skill points (350) into:list]
Bluff 25 (+32)
Concentration 25 (+30)
Diplomacy 25 (+44)
Disguise 25 (+36)
Gather Information 25 (+36)
Intimidate 25 (+36)
Knowledge History 25 (+31)
Knowledge Local 25 (+31)
Knowledge Nobility & Royalty 25 (+31)
Knowledge Religion 25 (+31)
Listen 25 (+32)
Perform Oratory 25 (+32)
Sense Motive 25 (+32)
Spot 25 (+32)
[/list]

The best natural skill mod on the planet (6 HD for 9 ranks...18 base, 1 level, 3 age, so 22 attribute...5 from Skill Focus and +2/+2 feat...maybe +20 is the best you could expect from most humans. Perform (Oratory) is the solar's worst Cha skill, but they'll win that opposed check 93% of the time...and even then, the opposing politicians won't have two feats for every skill, so it gets even better outside of the politician's specialty. 9 times out of 10, the angel will smoke every politician out there at their own game, and rise to power. Additionally, the angel has an 80% chance to turn a hostile creature helpful with a minute of conversation. I want to be very clear: besides putting politician memories in the angel's head (which is part of the fluff behind the skill point changes) and the skill point changes, I won't be altering anything - memories, alignment, sanity, sandwich preferences, nothin'.

Once you've replaced two powerful politicians/media moguls/CEOs with Solars (who will use their influence and divine power to subtly alter their new domain until they day "they" "die"), and replaces two dead babies with living "babies" who are ex-leaders, at this point you're probably out of 9th lvl spells (2 scries, 4 teleports , 1 gate, 4 mind rapes), so feel free to Plane Shift to either Hell or the Abyss and start murdering demons until you've made back the lost XP from Gate. Once you've had your fill of murder, shift back to material (or to a pre-prepared private demiplane, depending on where you are in this process) and rest for 8 hours. Then repeat all of this until you've replaced most of the world's existing politicians/media moguls/CEOs with angels who will influence society subtly to be more aligned with heaven's goals.

The goal of the second step is putting the power in the hands of beings who embody the ideals and goals of Lawful Good. I don't trust myself to run the world well, but replacing politicians with demigod-tier angels puts the power to influence society in the hands of capital G "Good" creatures. Let the absolute morality of the D&D alignment system take the wheel. :smalltongue:

Once I've replaced most of the politicians in the world with angels, I can take a bit of a breather - it'll be some time before major politicians die and other humans rise to replace them, so I've probably got a week or so before I need to replace somebody else with an angel. Create a personal demiplane that mimics a Hyperbolic Time Chamber - year inside, day outside...or whatever level of time compression is allowed by the universe. What you're crafting right now is intended to be a repeating Gate trap and a repeating Mind Rape trap, to speed up your process in the future going forward. Both should cost quite a chunk of XP and gold, but for a wizard of your caliber possessing a time compression demiplane, you should be able to gather gp/XP at a ridiculous speed relative to what's going on outside (since you can go in for what looks like a minute, and come out fully rested with restored spell slots). We can use money to buy Liquid Pain to sub in for XP costs in crafting, as as for getting money...well, even without having Wall Of Salt in our spellbook, gold is valuable on Earth and cheap on other planes, but salt is cheap on Earth and valuable on other planes. You probably shouldn't just trade around with those two goods, but there's gotta be a way to take advantage of being the only one with access to both markets. Maybe consult with the internet on this subject, or an economist.

Once you've got those traps up and set to make the replacement process cost fewer slots/experience points, the next traps to work on are Heroics/Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos. Again, expensive gp/XP, but you can manage it; these three traps should be built into the belt of a durable treadmill. The process of gaining enough XP to keep from going down in all this should probably have enough extra left over to level-up to 21st at some point in your demon slaughter. These traps will let you start generating bonus feats to spend on whatever you like, for however long you can put up with jogging on the treadmill...

...but since we're D&D characters, we can get that down to a science. Mount a flatscreen on the wall, find a way to power it and connect it to Netflix, put on a show you've been wanting to catch up on, and binge it while walking on the treadmill. You'll pass over your three trap-squares of the treadmill belt twice per round, and can walk for 8 hours before you have to start making Constitution checks for Forced Marching. I recommend spending your first two feats on Endurance/Epic Endurance for +14 to the checks, and then stop walking when you get close to passing out. With 54 HP, you should stop after you've failed 15 times (and thus taken 15d6 nonlethal for a total of ~52.5 on average). The first 8 hours don't call for checks, the next 3 don't call for checks you can possibly fail, and you can't succeed on checks past 21 hours without buffing your Con (which I won't, for simplicity's sake), so we need to determine the average number of failures from hours 12-21 (then add whatever's left to the hour total) before we have to stop walking lest we pass out from exhaustion. A quick calculation later, and we can determine that in those 10 hours, we would fail 5 checks on average, and thus the next 10 - bring our total hours running before collapsing from near-exhaustion to 31 hours, which is 2.5 binged seasons and 37200 times we ran over those three traps.

...at this point, spend the feats on whatever you like, I guess. Anything needing good stats, you probably qualify for; anything needing skill ranks lower than 13, you also qualify for (since I know you'll get tons of Great Intelligence and have the maximum possible ranks in every skill there is without much effort). Pick up feats to have more class skills, I guess? Beyond that stuff, and the obvious epic caster stuff, you probably wanna pick up metamagic feats, Spell Mastery for every spell in your spellbook, and Uncanny Forethought so that most of your slots can be used to spontaneous cast any of your spells (which should be every spell because of Spell Knowledge feat).

...from there, just kinda do whatever you want. At this point, or maybe with another week's worth of running, you have enough slots to spontaneously cast max-level fully metamagic'd versions of every spell on the wizard list all day every day. If you can't accomplish what you want to do with your life with that, while your traps manage the Politician Replacement Program in the background, I dunno what to tell you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Long as everybody is on this benevolent dictator kick, is Red Fel still around?

[BowStreetRunner]

Long as everybody is on this benevolent dictator kick, is Red Fel still around?Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel. :smallamused:

[Andor13]

Ask me again after the first few rounds of divinations.

[Ruethgar]

I would probably use it for myself and the betterment of the world, though not necessarily for the betterment of people. First thing’s first. Transform into a Dragonspawn Abomination Loredrake Greater Draconic Rite Kobold that is Fam Formed into a human body. That would give me Wizard 20/Sorc 10. Using 3.5, Sorcerers have access to all lists assuming they are familiar with the spells. I am most familiar with more Druidic magic so lots of fun nature manipulation from Sorc 10. Sculpt Self for things I want to force on there as well. Max Lucid Dreaming. And to top it off, a Mirror Mephitic familiar, because who wants god-like power when you can have the power of gods?

Lucid Dream and Alter Reality a weave into being so magic works. I can’t teach, and they can’t gain classes, but I can tattoo them with replenishing in use magic items of a few utility spells. Really wouldn’t help that many people in this way. Probably give my niece Greater Create Element(Water) at will, my brother, mother and father Greater Create Element, Wood Woose, Prestidigitation, Nurturing Seeds.

I would take a week or so every now and then to Awaken about 6 million trees with runes that they can activate to communicate with one another and create elementals to start regulating nature.

Infinity boxes would be everywhere providing water, electricity, food, and internet access(togglable zone of truth on it). These would be designed such that they did not create matter. Was also considering powerful empathic fields and minor telepathic fields, but the design there-of would need some work as I don’t know the abilities required off hand(though I suppose Alter Reality always works). A lower CL zone of truth on the world would make for some interesting conversations.

With these changes I would take measures to protect people I care about, but beyond that, the ensuing chaos would pretty much have to work itself out. I would try and tweak it if it needed it, push the world toward post scarcity and hopefully peace. My portfolio would probably include meditation, justice, truth and law. If I could be so broad, also runes, ruins, knowledge and nature.

[ryu]

Well, polymorph any objecting twice to permanently become a sarrukh, then magic jaring into a human body would allow you to have a base 30 Int before buffs and other bonuses...

I thought polymorph effects didn't effect mental stats?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I thought polymorph effects didn't effect mental stats?PAO explicitly affects your Int score, and it creates Wis and Cha for objects that have been turned into something animate.


Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)

[ryu]

Huh. And here I thought it was just good for expanding form options and duration shenanigans.

[Nifft]

PAO explicitly affects your Int score, and it creates Wis and Cha for objects that have been turned into something animate.

When you PAO a rock into a sapient being, that effects an Int score.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

When you PAO a rock into a sapient being, that effects an Int score.While true, it's a bit less accurate than using affect, because PAO affects the Int score of everything it's cast on, while it only effects the Int scores of Int: -- things.

[Nifft]

While true, it's a bit less accurate than using affect, because PAO affects the Int score of everything it's cast on, while it only effects the Int scores of Int: -- things.

Mmm, no.

You can't affect a thing that doesn't yet exist. If the initial target had Int: --, there is no Int to affect. The result having an Int score means the Int score was effected only.

The cases where one applies are the exact inverse of the cases where the other applies.

Neither is universal, and neither is "less accurate" -- except insofar as it would be inaccurate to use the wrong one, which goes equally for both.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mmm, no.

You can't affect a thing that doesn't yet exist. If the initial target had Int: --, there is no Int to affect. The result having an Int score means the Int score was effected only.

The cases where one applies are the exact inverse of the cases where the other applies.

Neither is universal, and neither is "less accurate" -- except insofar as it would be inaccurate to use the wrong one, which goes equally for both.So you're saying that PAO doesn't change the Int score of an Int: -- object to being an Int score of 1+? Because the text contradicts that explicitly and completely.

[Nifft]

So you're saying that PAO doesn't change the Int score of an Int: -- object to being an Int score of 1+? Because the text contradicts that explicitly and completely.

It changes a non-ability into an ability.

The change in the ability score is that it begins to exist, rather than not existing.

Changing from non-existence into existence is a matter of being effected. Changing a thing that exists already is a matter of being affected.


You're usually intelligent about precise linguistic distinctions like this, so I'm fairly confident that you actually do understand what I'm saying.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It changes a non-ability into an ability.

The change in the ability score is that it begins to exist, rather than not existing.

Changing from non-existence into existence is a matter of being effected. Changing a thing that exists already is a matter of being affected.


You're usually intelligent about precise linguistic distinctions like this, so I'm fairly confident that you actually do understand what I'm saying.If the Int score doesn't exist, even on a meta level, then why is "Int --" listed in creature entries? Obviously the Int score is affected, as it goes from -- to 1+. I'm not arguing that it isn't effected, obviously, but it's definitely affected as well, even if it's effectively created from scratch.

[Eldonauran]

So based on a previous thread, let's see what the responses are to this one.

If you were a 20th level Wizard ( DnD or PF, up to you) would you use your magic to help only yourself and your family? or would you help the world and all of its people?

If you only keep your magic to yourself, why?

If you want to help the world, why?

(However a rule is that you are unable to teach others your magic, others cannot gain any Wizard and or any other classes due to some magic fiat)
Honestly? I should never be given that type of power. I could quickly see myself becoming a tyrant of sorts as I seek to eliminate that which I deem to be wicked and unsalvagable from the world (please do not make assumptions about my beliefs, they don't matter), most likely through means of forced behavioral modification (geas and the like) up to the complete removal of the offending party, followed by attempts to guide mankind towards what I imagine ideal human behavior should be comprised of. Best case scenario? I'd dump all the offending parties on another realm of existence and let them devolve into their baser instincts. Worst case, well ... It wouldn't be pretty.

I'd probably start out keeping my powers secret until I've built up a solid foundation to protect myself. Patience wins wars.

[Nifft]

If the Int score doesn't exist, even on a meta level, then why is "Int --" listed in creature entries? Obviously the Int score is affected, as it goes from -- to 1+. I'm not arguing that it isn't effected, obviously, but it's definitely affected as well, even if it's effectively created from scratch.

That's a textual convention to indicate a non-ability.

Here's what non-ability means: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities



Nonabilities

Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.


A creature with Int: -- does not have an Int score. It lacks the Int ability score altogether. That's what "--" means.

When you create a thing, you cause it to exist. The word for that is "effect". You effect the thing you create, because you cause it to exist.

When you alter or influence a thing, the word for that modification is "affect". You can't modify a thing which doesn't exist.


When you use PAO on a creature with an Int score into a creature with a different Int score, you affect its Int.

When you use PAO on an object with no Int score into a creature with an Int score, you effect its Int, because you cause its Int to exist.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's a textual convention to indicate a non-ability.

Here's what non-ability means: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities



A creature with Int: -- does not have an Int score. It lacks the Int ability score altogether. That's what "--" means.

When you create a thing, you cause it to exist. The word for that is "effect". You effect the thing you create, because you cause it to exist.

When you alter or influence a thing, the word for that modification is "affect". You can't modify a thing which doesn't exist.


When you use PAO on a creature with an Int score into a creature with a different Int score, you affect its Int.

When you use PAO on an object with no Int score into a creature with an Int score, you effect its Int, because you cause its Int to exist.I get what you're saying. I do. Thing is, I would be more inclined to agree if we didn't have "Int --" in the creature entries. That means that they have an Int score, at least on a meta level; it's just that it's "--" instead of a number.

[ravenkith]

So based on a previous thread, let's see what the responses are to this one.

If you were a 20th level Wizard ( DnD or PF, up to you) would you use your magic to help only yourself and your family? or would you help the world and all of its people?

If you only keep your magic to yourself, why?

If you want to help the world, why?

(However a rule is that you are unable to teach others your magic, others cannot gain any Wizard and or any other classes due to some magic fiat)

Well, let's start by saying that I am a terrible, terrible person, but I generally have my heart in the right place.

Getting set up: Genesis - make your own demi-plane, set up a timeless area to put your original body. Use other shenanigans to operate in the real world while being functionally immortal thanks to your own pocket demi-plane.

Step One: Make it so that the human female is unable to become pregnant until she reaches the age of 25, and cannot have a child after the age of 75.
Step Two: Make it so that procreation requires the verbal agreement of both partners before intercourse begins. Once both parties agree, and intercourse occurs, the child will be carried to term and successfully delivered without issue or damage to mother or child, and free from genetic fault.
Step three: Make it so that No individual can father/mother more than two children.
Step Four: Eliminate all disease.
Step 5: Eliminate aging. Add a biological clock so that life ends without pain or suffering at age 100.
Step 6: Give humans the ability to photosynthesize.
Step 7: Make it so that, if a woman does not wish to have sex with a man, she can exude a pheromone that makes it impossible for anyone within 3 feet of her to get/maintain an erection.
Step 8: Make it so that, in the event that someone attempts to kill another, the harm that they would have inflicted is instead inflicted on the perpetrator.

The above 8 steps should, in theory, address the overpopulation problem over time, address the known hunger issues the world faces, make rape an impossibility, make unwanted children an impossibility, Make teen pregnancy impossible, make untimely death unlikely (accident and self-termination, I think, are the only remaining ways to die), make child mortality and deaths in childbirth a thing of the past.

Before you say "D&D magic can't do that" just go take a look at the shenanigans that are possible with wish/miracle/polymorph any object/genesis and realize that, yes, D&D can do that, as long as you are operating on a long enough timeline.

Once the population level stabilizes at a reasonable level, all resource pressure should be much reduced, and with the inability to harm another, there's no way to do robbery or war or any of the other stupid stuff we humans get up to, at least in theory.

Then you reveal that the max kids and max years limits only apply on EARTH. Modifiy as necessary to motivate.

Then you just watch humanity's diaspora across the stars.

[Nifft]

I get what you're saying. I do. Thing is, I would be more inclined to agree if we didn't have "Int --" in the creature entries. That means that they have an Int score, at least on a meta level; it's just that it's "--" instead of a number.

The rules explicitly say that "--" indicates the lack of a score, not a type of score.

It's like how some forms have "Bald" listed as a hair color choice. It's because the forms have fixed fields, so they use a flag value to indicate something which isn't strictly appropriate for that field.

"Bald" is not a hair color, and "--" is not an Int score. The mapping might be flawed, but the flaws of the map don't carry through to the underlying territory.

[BowStreetRunner]

"Bald" is not a hair color...Aha! Now I know why it's so hard for my kids to find a "bald" crayon in the box whenever they try to make a picture of me!

So if my hair color isn't "bald", then what color is it??? :smallconfused:

Gotta find the right crayon...

[liquidformat]

Step 7: Make it so that, if a woman does not wish to have sex with a man, she can exude a pheromone that makes it impossible for anyone within 3 feet of her to get/maintain an erection.
.
.
.
make rape an impossibility

Rape is still a very really possibility with step 7, in fact this does very little in anyway to curb it. In fact even adding Step 8 in the context I think you meant it (ie what is you do to others is done to you?) might just make some rapists enjoy it even more...

[Nifft]

Aha! Now I know why it's so hard for my kids to find a "bald" crayon in the box whenever they try to make a picture of me!

So if my hair color isn't "bald", then what color is it??? :smallconfused:

Gotta find the right crayon...


https://image.ibb.co/g3UFE8/59f030dbe685694d25271d0d52e189f9.jpg (https://ibb.co/iV5Y1o)



https://image.ibb.co/ngS2u8/Caran_DAche_Neocolor_II_Crayon_Flesh_1.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Eldest]

Step 7: Make it so that, if a woman does not wish to have sex with a man, she can exude a pheromone that makes it impossible for anyone within 3 feet of her to get/maintain an erection.

I would just make it so that non-consentual sex causes paralysis for the offender.

[The Magister]

Step 7: Make it so that, if a woman does not wish to have sex with a man, she can exude a pheromone that makes it impossible for anyone within 3 feet of her to get/maintain an erection.
OK, you do that while I invent a revolutionary erectile dysfunction drug - then we split the profits.

[unseenmage]

Alternate Prime Material planes being a thing... probably take my family on a Sliders (the old TV show) style vacation until we found a world we like.

That and/or Genesis up a world to stay in/vacation in.

[Afgncaap5]

I would directly help the world when I really thought it needed things. Basically like The Doctor, Superman, or Commander Vimes, "I do the job in front of me." So if there's a cat stuck up a tree? Sure, levitate it down. If a comet's about to hit the planet, yeah, take care of that. Most of the rest of it, though, would just be... I don't wanna say "help myself" so much as I'd want to "live life." Don't wanna be a tyrant, but I would definitely live a life free from money. Probably find a nice small town somewhere that I can live on the outskirts of, support the local community, that kind of thing.

Oh, and since I'm a writer I'd probably try to tell stories with awesome special effects all the time. Community theater would either hate me or live me.

[Andor13]

Ask me again after the first few rounds of divinations.

I feel like I should expand on that, since it probably seemed like a flip answer.

The first thing I would do would be set up some reasonable defenses, then use divinations to get the answers to a lot of unanswerable cosmology questions. Then I would think about those answers, if I liked them, and what I could do about them.

And really, the me contemplating those answers has an extra 11 points in all my stats, so how could I anticipate correctly the actions of super me, armed with a library of information I lack?

I can probably get some principles right, however. The goal after all is to make things better, as broadly and for as long as possible. So while the benevolent dictator thing seems attractive, as a systems guy I'm adverse to any system with a single point of failure. The goal is resilience, and that means redundant systems, which you don't have with a God-Emperor.

Likewise trying to hardcode rules that forbid specific behavior X just means people seek (and will find) ways to break or get around those rules. You want a subtler approach of carrots and sticks that prompt people to seek to behave in the ways you want.

The long term goal is a functional and prosperous and enlightened galactic civilization.

[Xar Zarath]

...snip...

Where would you start? Some small country first or try for the big leagues off the bat like America?

[Quertus]

I get what you're saying. I do. Thing is, I would be more inclined to agree if we didn't have "Int --" in the creature entries. That means that they have an Int score, at least on a meta level; it's just that it's "--" instead of a number.

As a software developer, I agree.

I create an "animal" object. It had a number of properties, like legs, arms, head, tall, gills, etc. I instantiate an instance of that object, and populate the data for a human. Arms = [left, right]. Gills = ---. Because humans don't have gills. So it's a null pointer.

My understanding is, int --- is equivalent to a null pointer. It's an "error: object not found" scenario if you attempt to access its int.


Step One: Make it so that the human female is unable to become pregnant until she reaches the age of 25, and cannot have a child after the age of 75.
Step Two: Make it so that procreation requires the verbal agreement of both partners before intercourse begins. Once both parties agree, and intercourse occurs, the child will be carried to term and successfully delivered without issue or damage to mother or child, and free from genetic fault.
Step three: Make it so that No individual can father/mother more than two children.
Step Four: Eliminate all disease.
Step 5: Eliminate aging. Add a biological clock so that life ends without pain or suffering at age 100.
Step 6: Give humans the ability to photosynthesize.
Step 7: Make it so that, if a woman does not wish to have sex with a man, she can exude a pheromone that makes it impossible for anyone within 3 feet of her to get/maintain an erection.
Step 8: Make it so that, in the event that someone attempts to kill another, the harm that they would have inflicted is instead inflicted on the perpetrator.

The above 8 steps should, in theory, address the overpopulation problem over time, address the known hunger issues the world faces, make rape an impossibility, make unwanted children an impossibility, Make teen pregnancy impossible, make untimely death unlikely (accident and self-termination, I think, are the only remaining ways to die), make child mortality and deaths in childbirth a thing of the past.

Um, this seems like an overly lawful bad way of not solving the problem.

First off, female human brains are fully developed by age 18. Male human brains, however, do not finish developing until age 25. So, if you're going to set age limits, what you'd want to do is, females lack rapable openings until age 18; males lack rapable openings or erection capability until age 25, as a start. Not sure why you'd only care about women, or set their age limit at 25.

Or just, you know, make procreation an unpleasant thing, that people only do out of a sense of civic responsibility. That would cut down on rape significantly.

Now, when someone - say, a moody teenager who hasn't done their reproductive duty yet - tries kill themselves, the harm rebounds back... on them. They still die. And accidental death still happens. Oh, you noticed those. Well, there's more.

Parental neglect of not putting your baby out in the sun still happens. Childhood cancer still happens. Sterility still happens. A desire not to breed still happens. Your population still dies off without further intervention. (just like Illithids)

(EDIT: I'm discounting humans reaching the stats before dying off. I'm a pessimist like that)

Perhaps, should you ever acquire such nigh-divine power, you should try divination, or hiring a team of experts Playgrounders to evaluate your ideas?


I feel like I should expand on that, since it probably seemed like a flip answer.

Actually, I thought it sounded like a wise answer.

[Eldan]

Of course I'd do a few things to improve the world.

However, I'm massively paranoid. Also, selfish.

Therefore, the priorities pretty much go:

1) Hide
2) Become immortal
3) Become untouchable
4) Become more untouchable, since I probably forgot something

Then, once I'm several clones and astral projections and layers of shield spells deep, well...

Probably hedonism first. Just for a few years.

Then, we can go about improving the world. Wouldnt' trust myself to do that alone, really, so first, let's recruit some advisors. And because I can, give them all +11 Int and +11 Wis. Or just summon hyperintelligent benevolent creatures, then give them +11 int and +11 wis. Then, go about fixing society and the world. In hilarious ways. There has to be some trolling. But yeah, topple a few dictators, throw all the nukes into the sun and replace MAD with Supreme Magical Overlord's Army of Solars, create enough food and water traps and magical shelters to end most immediate scarcity, establish a network of teleportation circles between major cities, cure the most pressing diseases, save a few endangered species, end climate change, while we're at it.

Then it's time for fun time projects. Long term, we want the singularity and general post-scarcity. However, we have to do something about the population density, ecological impact and give all the unemployed people something to do. Luckily, we can establish extradimensional space for living quarters, create raw materials out of thin air and replace all simple labor with golems or undead.

Once that's done in a sustainable way ( remember, hyperintelligent advisors), we can go about having fun again. I'll see how far I can get in terraforming Mars, maybe, I always wanted to do that. I imagine Walls of Force (to hold an atmosphere in), plus enough Bottles of Air and Decanters of Water should work miracles, there.

[Andor13]

Actually, I thought it sounded like a wise answer.

Thank you, but that's because you understood the subtext that I explicated in the follow up post. Many people don't, I'm slowly learning to unpack what I mean, if I want most people to follow.


Where would you start? Some small country first or try for the big leagues off the bat like America?

Well, again, I can't know for certain because I'm not super-me armed with more info, but since the goal is systemic improvement it generally makes sense to start with the biggest levers. America has influence vastly out of proportion to it's population so it makes sense to start with it. Plus as an American it's the country I'm most familiar with, and, without wanting to touch on RL politics, I intuit that America is on a historical cusp, so this is an important time to try to shape events.

But give me 20 Wizard levels and a week of casting and I'll let you know for sure. :smallcool:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Probably hedonism first. Just for a few years.Oh, I'd definitely go for a heaping helping of hedonism. It's just that I'd take care of business first, so it's over and done with (mostly; obviously tweaks will be needed).

I definitely wouldn't be using mind control et al, but I would be using my Knowledge skills to their utmost, Knowledge (Economics), Knowledge (Psychology) and Knowledge (Politics) to figure out where to knock pins out and shore them up with my own playing pieces. I'd use Diplomacy and other means to ensure loyalty to my minions allies, work out an effective long term game plan with a minimum number of downsides via divination and magically-boosted skills, put it into effect, and cheat like a bastard to make it insanely effective.

After all of that, it'd be all about how much enjoyment I can wring out of life.

[Eldan]

See, I think I know myself too well. I'm lazy. Super lazy. I'd only do the minimum amount of work to fix the world once I'd done everything else. And occasionally probably bits and pieces halfway.

Which is why I'd set up the army of hyperintelligent and hyperwise solars to rule in my stead.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

See, I think I know myself too well. I'm lazy. Super lazy. I'd only do the minimum amount of work to fix the world once I'd done everything else. And occasionally probably bits and pieces halfway.

Which is why I'd set up the army of hyperintelligent and hyperwise solars to rule in my stead.Do you want grammar solar Nazis? Because that's how you get grammar solar Nazis.

[the_david]

My first step would be to use Polymorph any Object to turn my neigbour into a dog. (You'd think this was funny if you knew him.) This should make the neigbourhood much more pleasant, and I'm sure the value of my home would increase too.

My second step would be doing something political. There's one political party in my country that has a single member but many followers. (By design. The party leader wants to have full control.) I'd guess I'd have to go for PaO and Simulacrum to get rid of that party.

Did I say my country? I suppose I could PaO the king into a dog and then take his place with some transmutation magic. He's just a puppet though, so I guess I'll just let him sit on the throne for now.

What then? Make myself more attractive and find a nice boyfriend. So I'm vain, who cares? What do you guys think? Should I unbald myself?

Oooh! I'll cast Earthquake on parliament for the way they handled the earthquakes that where caused by fossil fuel extraction.

Okay, this is not going in the right direction. Maybe I should do something good for a change.
Cast Pyrotechnics at people who set off fireworks before they're legally allowed to do so. I guess we're not going to do any good deeds today.

So yeah, apparantly I'd be a lot more a chaotic with a fondness for poetic justice.

[Eldonauran]

Do you want grammar solar Nazis? Because that's how you get grammar solar Nazis.Lawful Good isn't going to be nice and 'warm' and 'fuzzy'. One does wonder if having Solar 'nazis' would actually be a BAD thing, all things considered.

[liquidformat]

Um, this seems like an overly lawful bad way of not solving the problem.

First off, female human brains are fully developed by age 18. Male human brains, however, do not finish developing until age 25. So, if you're going to set age limits, what you'd want to do is, females lack rapable openings until age 18; males lack rapable openings or erection capability until age 25, as a start. Not sure why you'd only care about women, or set their age limit at 25.


No eating or using the bathroom until you are 18 (female) 25 (male), CHECK!



1) Hide


Why is everyone so obsessed with hiding and building up your power? You are a Level 20 Wizard in a world without magic besides your own. You are basically a god. You are basically a spell away from doing anything, and can become immortal and unkillable by human standards through very little effort. So why is everyone so afraid of the world knowing who you are and that they can all be dead or your eternal slave at the wave of your hand?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No eating or using the bathroom until you are 18 (female) 25 (male), CHECK!Honestly, if I could do without the less savory biological processes, I'd take that option in an instant. I do enjoy eating, but after that, no.


Why is everyone so obsessed with hiding and building up your power? You are a Level 20 Wizard in a world without magic besides your own. You are basically a god. You are basically a spell away from doing anything, and can become immortal and unkillable by human standards through very little effort. So why is everyone so afraid of the world knowing who you are and that they can all be dead or your eternal slave at the wave of your hand?Because having people hounding you 24/7/365.25 is annoying, and you just KNOW people are going to be constantly in your face, if you let anyone close. Some people love constant attention from everyone, but I'd find it very annoying very quickly. I'd prefer a double-handful of very close people to tons of mindless sheep worshiping (Worsheeping? That's baa'd.) me any day. Some family, some friends, some lovers, and I'd be set.

[Eldan]

Lawful Good isn't going to be nice and 'warm' and 'fuzzy'. One does wonder if having Solar 'nazis' would actually be a BAD thing, all things considered.

I'd probably get neutral good ones. Also, call them in a way that they have to follow my commands, so I can keep them in check.

[liquidformat]

Still seems like you could achieve that without hiding though, I mean you can teleport anywhere you want and make your own demi/pocket planes so it doesn't seem like you need to go out of your way to hide.

[Eldan]

No eating or using the bathroom until you are 18 (female) 25 (male), CHECK!



Why is everyone so obsessed with hiding and building up your power? You are a Level 20 Wizard in a world without magic besides your own. You are basically a god. You are basically a spell away from doing anything, and can become immortal and unkillable by human standards through very little effort. So why is everyone so afraid of the world knowing who you are and that they can all be dead or your eternal slave at the wave of your hand?

I'm not saying that hiding would take more than a day or two. But I wouldn't want anyone to try and kidnap me. And before casting a few buffs, I'd still be very killable. I'd just feel better once I'd stored my body and backup clone in a demiplane from which I could astrally project.

After that, sure, I can go public.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Still seems like you could achieve that without hiding though, I mean you can teleport anywhere you want and make your own demi/pocket planes so it doesn't seem like you need to go out of your way to hide.So, you're essentially a god, and any time you go out in public without taking pains to hide yourself, the mindless masses mob you. You might not mind that. I definitely would.

The easiest way to avoid that is via obscurity. Sure, you could alter self whenever you go out, but that seems like a waste of a spell slot to me. At the very least, your public persona should be the illusion, to reduce the amount of daily resources you have to commit. And at that point, you're doing the same thing as I would be, albeit in a different way.

Not parading yourself around like that does reduce the risk of being shot at with entire nuclear arsenals, at least, since nobody knows you're there that you don't want to know you're there. You could more than likely tank the blast, but I doubt anyone or anything in your vicinity would survive the fallout.

[AvatarVecna]

Do you want grammar solar Nazis? Because that's how you get grammar solar Nazis.

I intentionally installed Solar Nazis. I suppose I could've used Guardinals or some NG powerful outsiders instead, but Solars are pretty awesome, and have the angel factor.


Why is everyone so obsessed with hiding and building up your power? You are a Level 20 Wizard in a world without magic besides your own. You are basically a god. You are basically a spell away from doing anything, and can become immortal and unkillable by human standards through very little effort. So why is everyone so afraid of the world knowing who you are and that they can all be dead or your eternal slave at the wave of your hand?

I've seen enough challenges of this type on the forum that I know assuming I'm the only one who's been gifted with ultimate power out of nowhere is likely to result in bad things being done to me by other forumites who've been similarly empowered but didn't make my mistake. Additionally, even if I know for a fact as part of the scenario set-up that I'm the only being on Earth capable of this magic, that still means that the concept of magic exists and was gifted to me out of nowhere, which 1) implies magic has existed for sometime, so there's likely other wizards out there in the multiverse even if there's none on Earth save for me, and 2) implies somebody with the power to turn worthless commoners into batman wizards for reasons unknown is using me for something. Granted, in one of my current regular games, I'm playing an Oracle who was a commoner given super-powerful magic by a top-tier demon lord with no strings attached to see how easily I'd be corrupted by my power, so the idea of such a power origin being semi-benign isn't out of the question, but the fact remains that I wouldn't know for sure I was the only wizard in the world or the multiverse, and I wouldn't know why I'd been gifted with these powers or by whom - both of which are good reasons to prep batman wizard style defenses just in case.

[Nifft]

Snipers exist, and I'm significantly more vulnerable when asleep or after I do some casting.

Obscurity has a lot of value.

Personally I probably would make a public announcement -- after several years of secretly making the world better, and the announcement would be made from my moon base -- which is opposite the public moon base where I've already set up O'Neill cylinder production facilities and accessible teleportation circles.

[Eldest]

I can probably get some principles right, however. The goal after all is to make things better, as broadly and for as long as possible. So while the benevolent dictator thing seems attractive, as a systems guy I'm adverse to any system with a single point of failure. The goal is resilience, and that means redundant systems, which you don't have with a God-Emperor.

Likewise trying to hardcode rules that forbid specific behavior X just means people seek (and will find) ways to break or get around those rules. You want a subtler approach of carrots and sticks that prompt people to seek to behave in the ways you want.

The long term goal is a functional and prosperous and enlightened galactic civilization.

While I did flippantly declare my goal as benevolent dictatorship, yes, the goal with said dictatorship would it being a transition state to one where I don't have to do jack to maintain the world. Setting up systems where people have everything they need for living and bettering themselves, as well as somehow addressing those who, when they have enough, want somebody else's stuff.

[BowStreetRunner]

While I did flippantly declare my goal as benevolent dictatorship, yes, the goal with said dictatorship would it being a transition state to one where I don't have to do jack to maintain the world. Setting up systems where people have everything they need for living and bettering themselves, as well as somehow addressing those who, when they have enough, want somebody else's stuff.You know what's going to happen next...

Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered? Where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from.

[Nifft]

You know what's going to happen next...

We ignore bad movies, and instead we go explore a new frontier which is difficult and challenging and rewarding instead of sitting in a stagnant gravity well with declining resources.

[Eldonauran]

We ignore bad movies, and instead we go explore a new frontier which is difficult and challenging and rewarding instead of sitting in a stagnant gravity well with declining resources.Eh, you can ignore bad movies all you want but do not ignore the depths of human nature. We might all disagree at how 'inherent' chaos and evil (and order and good) are to the human spirit but it is utter folly to think we can eliminate all the bad aspects of human nature, regardless of the amount of nurture.

[Eldest]

You know what's going to happen next...


I'd probably let there be an area where people can do whatever...

I actually thought of that, yes.

[MultitudeMan]

I think there's an interesting commentary on gaining unbounded D&D power (as people are interpreting Wizard 20 to mean, and with Wish, Gate and other 9th level spells, they're functionally correct) in Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/20/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20). Check out Chapter 20, when Milo looks into the Mirror of Erised.

I notice that few people have mentioned interacting personally with anyone else during this process (MaxiduRaritry being an exception), implying that such power isolates. I wonder how many of us could handle this kind of power in a way that wouldn't destroy us?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think there's an interesting commentary on gaining unbounded D&D power (as people are interpreting Wizard 20 to mean, and with Wish, Gate and other 9th level spells, they're functionally correct) in Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/20/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20). Check out Chapter 20, when Milo looks into the Mirror of Erised.

I notice that few people have mentioned interacting personally with anyone else during this process (MaxiduRaritry being an exception), implying that such power isolates. I wonder how many of us could handle this kind of power in a way that wouldn't destroy us?How many of us are already isolated? How many would use said power to give ourselves a much-needed boost to our self-esteem?

Huzzah for morale bonuses!

[Nifft]

Eh, you can ignore bad movies all you want but do not ignore the depths of human nature. We might all disagree at how 'inherent' chaos and evil (and order and good) are to the human spirit but it is utter folly to think we can eliminate all the bad aspects of human nature, regardless of the amount of nurture.

Ah, sure.

That's why I'd give humanity a new frontier or two.

It's a better use of our ingenuity than figuring out how to screw each other, which seems to be what we get up to when there's nothing left to conquer except boredom.

[Eldonauran]

I notice that few people have mentioned interacting personally with anyone else during this process (MaxiduRaritry being an exception), implying that such power isolates. I wonder how many of us could handle this kind of power in a way that wouldn't destroy us?Oh, I am quite sure that given access to such power, and finding in myself a willingness to exercise that power, I would end up destroying quite a few illusions I have about myself and who I am as a human being. Absolute power changes whomever wields it. Knowing that, in the end, you make the rules and you can do whatever to whomever does not toe the line that you draw in the sand, changes every aspect of how you deal with anyone, and anything.

Sure, you can try to convince yourself that you will play nice and tolerate the existence of others that oppose you, but towards the infinite? Rebellion and envy lay in the hearts of mankind and many will challenge you and try to unseat you. Eventually you will tire of that game. Eventually, someone else will emerge that is actually a challenge to you and wields equal power.


Ah, sure.

That's why I'd give humanity a new frontier or two.

It's a better use of our ingenuity than figuring out how to screw each other, which seems to be what we get up to when there's nothing left to conquer except boredom. Eternity is a long time. How long till you tire of the constant bickering, turmoil, and attempts to unseat you as the ultimate authority? How long until someone overthrows you in a moment of unexpected triumph?


I suppose, in the end, after I've tasted all the various intricacies of the universe, and the bickering of the lifeforms within it, I'd retire to a long slumber, to await a new frontier. Before that, I would probably cast every lifeform into a plane of existence all their own, granting them creative power within that realm and tell them to have fun. I'm done playing.

[Nifft]

Eternity is a long time. How long till you tire of the constant bickering, turmoil, and attempts to unseat you as the ultimate authority? How long until someone overthrows you in a moment of unexpected triumph?

Hopefully I'll be far away before any of that is possible.

I did talk about space habitat construction & launch facilities on my other moon base, and stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, I am quite sure that given access to such power, and finding in myself a willingness to exercise that power, I would end up destroying quite a few illusions I have about myself and who I am as a human being. Absolute power changes whomever wields it. Knowing that, in the end, you make the rules and you can do whatever to whomever does not toe the line that you draw in the sand, changes every aspect of how you deal with anyone, and anything.

Sure, you can try to convince yourself that you will play nice and tolerate the existence of others that oppose you, but towards the infinite? Rebellion and envy lay in the hearts of mankind and many will challenge you and try to unseat you. Eventually you will tire of that game. Eventually, someone else will emerge that is actually a challenge to you and wields equal power.

Eternity is a long time. How long till you tire of the constant bickering, turmoil, and attempts to unseat you as the ultimate authority? How long until someone overthrows you in a moment of unexpected triumph?

I suppose, in the end, after I've tasted all the various intricacies of the universe, and the bickering of the lifeforms within it, I'd retire to a long slumber, to await a new frontier. Before that, I would probably cast every lifeform into a plane of existence all their own, granting them creative power within that realm and tell them to have fun. I'm done playing.I would choose to modify myself so that the power doesn't corrupt me. Mindrape shouldn't be [Evil], as it has all sorts of capital-G Good uses going for it, and even more Neutral ones. Ensuring that I wouldn't go mad with power and would never succumb to boredom and ennui would definitely fit in that category.

In short, [Evil] mindrape is dumb, and it can be used to nip this problem in the bud before it even becomes a thing.

[Eldonauran]

I would choose to modify myself so that the power doesn't corrupt me. Mindrape shouldn't be [Evil], as it has all sorts of capital-G Good uses going for it, and even more Neutral ones. Ensuring that I wouldn't go mad with power and would never succumb to boredom and ennui would definitely fit in that category.

In short, [Evil] mindrape is dumb, and it can be used to nip this problem in the bud before it even becomes a thing.I'm not convinced that wielding absolute power actually corrupts anyone. I'm more inclined to believe that it merely brings out what is already there, and heightens whatever it finds to a frighting degree. The old fashion use of the word 'awesome' comes to mind, an awe so deep and intense that it borders along the lines of fear. At that point, I think you would transition to some point beyond simple mortal limitations of 'morality'.

I'm not sure I'd agree with 'mindraping' myself so that I would never grow bored. It seems some sort of cop-out so that you wouldn't have to face the sheer magnitude of what eternity would actually mean, and the scope of the time before you.


Hmm, it comes to my mind that I might be focusing too much on the long term issues, rather than the short term possibilities. I tend to do that because I am a long term, goal oriented person. What would I do in the short term to possibly impact the world for the better?

Ah, yes. I would research a fairly simple, but far reaching divination spell that I would target the entire human population with. Its effect? Limited precognition, specifically oriented towards the effects of an individuals actions on the people and places around them. That way, whenever someone does something 'bad', they get to experience the effects first hand (if only psychically). This way, everyone becomes aware of how their actions effect everyone else, and no one can claim ignorance.

[Andor13]

I notice that few people have mentioned interacting personally with anyone else during this process (MaxiduRaritry being an exception), implying that such power isolates. I wonder how many of us could handle this kind of power in a way that wouldn't destroy us?

Define destroy. It will certainly change any of us. By definition, as none of us have the power of a 20th level wizards right now (or are very subtle.) As I said the first thing I will do is enhance my abilities and knowledge to the point where I have no confidence in my ability to predict my own future actions. Is that destroyed?

There would be, particularly for those who minds immediately leap to pocket dimensions, a real danger of lapsing into that vilest of philosophies, Solipsism. That would be pretty destructive.

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel. :smallamused:

Oi!


So based on a previous thread, let's see what the responses are to this one.

If you were a 20th level Wizard ( DnD or PF, up to you) would you use your magic to help only yourself and your family? or would you help the world and all of its people?

If you only keep your magic to yourself, why?

If you want to help the world, why?

(However a rule is that you are unable to teach others your magic, others cannot gain any Wizard and or any other classes due to some magic fiat)

Wait, so why am I here?


Long as everybody is on this benevolent dictator kick, is Red Fel still around?

... "Benevolent dictator?" Don't get me wrong, sure, I've generally got a soft spot for kids and fluffy animals, but as for the rest of you, I'm going full blood-soaked tyrant.

Step one, secure my immortality. Step two, secure my invulnerability. Step three, secure my resources.

Step four, screw the rules, I have magic.

Do you remember Kefka from Act II of Final Fantasy VI? Do you remember Demon King Piccolo from Dragon Ball?

That's me. That's me meting out judgment on a Me-damned whim. That's me declaring crime legal and getting a Purge going, then punishing everyone dumb enough to actually do it with a fate worse than death.

That's me using the tactic of the bully. Gently patting your face with one hand, smiling and congratulating you on a job well done and I hope we can work well together in the future, and punching you in the gut and stealing your lunch money with the other hand. Because I can.

That's me becoming the boogey man. He who must not be named. The one people speak of in terrified whispers, not just because they fear he might hear it, but because they know, for a fact, that he will. They know he will hear. What they don't know is if - or when - he will strike.

I'm not showing up to save the world, mate. I'm not showing up to rule it, either. I'm showing up to have fun. And that means whatever I say it means in that moment.

Call it CE, if you like. I've always said that alignment is a silly system.

[Jack_Simth]

Why is everyone so obsessed with hiding and building up your power? You are a Level 20 Wizard in a world without magic besides your own. You are basically a god. You are basically a spell away from doing anything, and can become immortal and unkillable by human standards through very little effort. So why is everyone so afraid of the world knowing who you are and that they can all be dead or your eternal slave at the wave of your hand?
In part because we don't know how much damage a point-blank H-bomb does. Or of what type. Is it regular damage? Ability damage? Does it bypass Regeneration or Incorporeality? Does it qualify as an attack that you can become immune to by picking up Singular Enemy, or is it a simple hazard that affects everyone in the (gargantuan) area? When you don't know the answers to these sorts of questions, and you're potentially bumping up against the sort of folks who can cauterize a clear and present danger, it behooves a person to prepare for a few "oopsies".

[BowStreetRunner]

In part because we don't know how much damage a point-blank H-bomb does. Or of what type. Is it regular damage? Ability damage? Does it bypass Regeneration or Incorporeality? Does it qualify as an attack that you can become immune to by picking up Singular Enemy, or is it a simple hazard that affects everyone in the (gargantuan) area? When you don't know the answers to these sorts of questions, and you're potentially bumping up against the sort of folks who can cauterize a clear and present danger, it behooves a person to prepare for a few "oopsies".But...can't you just look all of that up in the d20 Modern rules??? :smallconfused:

[Jack_Simth]

But...can't you just look all of that up in the d20 Modern rules??? :smallconfused:
Maybe. Maybe not. d20 modern may or may not apply to a D&D or Pathfinder character in the real world (and you don't actually find stats for nukes until you look at ship to ship combat in space in d20 Future... but those nukes aren't stating things up for atmospheric detonations nor against creatures - they're for ship-to-ship combat - and they don't really go into radiation effects).

However, it's not too terribly difficult for a Wizard to arrange to Astral Project from a private Demiplane (whether that's via Create Demiplane in Pathfinder or Genesis in D&D), that's got a Private Sanctum spell, with a Simulacrum of an (advanced to 44 HD, making the sim a standard 22 HD version) Solar who regularly uses Commune to see if the Wizard is stuck or deceased, and to True Resurrect the Wizard (Wish up materials, cast True Resurrection) or Dispel the Astral Projection spell (as appropriate) to restore the Wizard (who can then Astral Project again - rinse & repeat).

It really only takes a few days to arrange for that sort of 'oopsie' insurance, and it's useful against most forms of 'oopsie' - whether that's mind-control drugs you didn't know about, a rifle shot that deals enough brain damage to leave you in a permanent coma, a nasty stat-drain poison slipped into your drink when you were socializing, someone else who also picked up such power targeting you for tasty XP, or what have you. If you can... why wouldn't you?

[Krobar]

Still spell, silent spell, eschew materials. And later Ignore Materials. These would be very important for me to maintain my Grey Man lifestyle.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Still spell, silent spell, eschew materials. And later Ignore Materials. These would be very important for me to maintain my Grey Man lifestyle.You could always equip minions with magical robot-looking armor and other magic items they can use to do things for you. Maybe claim to have some super-futuristic tech that hits a corollary of Clarke's 3rd Law pretty hard. I mean, any sufficiently disguised magic is indistinguishable from tech, right?

[Crichton]

Step one, secure my immortality. Step two, secure my invulnerability. Step three, secure my resources.




Pretty much starts with this. The how is up for debate. After that, I do what I see fit. I don't really wanna take over, don't wanna rule. Sure, I'll help out where I think it wont have too many unintended negative consequences. But I also refuse to take responsibility for the entire world's safety and well-being. I'll try to help it not self-destruct, and if I can solve a specific, measurable problem, I'll do it.

But at some point I'm building myself a magical super-awesome space ship, astral projecting myself into it, and going to explore the universe for as long as I see fit.

[Andor13]

But at some point I'm building myself a magical super-awesome space ship, astral projecting myself into it, and going to explore the universe for as long as I see fit.

Fun fact. A decanter of endless water is a star drive. Not, you know, a fast one. Or stealthy, since you'll be leaving that cometary tail of ice crystals wherever you go. But it's better than anything allowed by physics (unless you Wish up some exotic matter to create an Alcubierre warp drive with.)

[Crichton]

Fun fact. A decanter of endless water is a star drive. Not, you know, a fast one. Or stealthy, since you'll be leaving that cometary tail of ice crystals wherever you go. But it's better than anything allowed by physics (unless you Wish up some exotic matter to create an Alcubierre warp drive with.)

More importantly, it (and many other spells) creates reaction mass from nothing. I'm sure I can come up with a way to get copious amounts of free energy too, to power a drive that accelerates my free reaction mass out the back. Not having to account for fuel weight removes like nine tenths of modern rocketry problems. And that's not even getting creative enough to look beyond free fuel for today's mundane rocket tech.

[Eldan]

Eh, it's already pretty well accelerated. And since it creates the reaction mass from nothing, the rocket equation is no longer a concern. You don't need to bother with, say, ionizing that water and then ejecting it at higher speed. You can just stick on more decanters until you have a convenient 1G. Probably make some kind of spherical or cubical ship with 1G thrusters in all directions. Maybe a bit more for emergencies. Then, stick on a few more decanters inside turbines, to provide electrical power, then use the water from those to provide water and air, and then eject it as coolant...

Yeah, spaceships aren't that hard anymore. Even for the hull, you can just Sovereign Glue everything to walls of force.

[Manyasone]

Doubt I would do well as a wizard. They do say absolute power corrupts absolutely. And since I am a parent I really think with that amount of power the current morons in charge will try to manipulate through family. And which point my inner rebel will probably start grinning... And in the end i'll probably end up like the Lord Ruler

[Eldan]

Doubt I would do well as a wizard. They do say absolute power corrupts absolutely. And since I am a parent I really think with that amount of power the current morons in charge will try to manipulate through family. And which point my inner rebel will probably start grinning... And in the end i'll probably end up like the Lord Ruler

Meh. There's worse things to be than the Lord Ruler. Most of the bad aspects of society weren't his fault, but his attempts to mitigate inherent problems of that world.

[Manyasone]

Meh. There's worse things to be than the Lord Ruler. Most of the bad aspects of society weren't his fault, but his attempts to mitigate inherent problems of that world.

I know. My point is more that I believe that the human mind isn't really equipped to handle that power. In the end most people have an inner brake to prevent them from being psychopaths. But as time progresses and you are met with failure after failure because we cavemen are cavemen...I consider darkest dungeon to be a lesson in just that

[Xar Zarath]

...Why is everyone so obsessed with hiding and building up your power? You are a Level 20 Wizard in a world without magic besides your own. You are basically a god. You are basically a spell away from doing anything, and can become immortal and unkillable by human standards through very little effort. So why is everyone so afraid of the world knowing who you are and that they can all be dead or your eternal slave at the wave of your hand?

One of the key things is that most govts today cant handle any one power that has an edge. A single individual who has all the power and the edges?! Cause of concern for many. Although I would like to hear from your view how you would go about your day, so to speak as an archmage.


...Not parading yourself around like that does reduce the risk of being shot at with entire nuclear arsenals, at least, since nobody knows you're there that you don't want to know you're there. You could more than likely tank the blast, but I doubt anyone or anything in your vicinity would survive the fallout.

I do doubt this action. Even if you were considered a great threat, maybe even the greatest threat in the world, you can always dodge a nuke. Moreover, most countries aren't going to immediately try to nuke you, current politics notwithstanding. I've always found the nuke'em option quite lacking, as if you maintain your travels around populated cities, they are not going to risk wiping out the world and everyone with it, just to get at one Wizard.

[Eldan]

See, I think it costs me about a day of up-front investment and then two or three spell slots a day to only appear to the world as a disguised astral projection. That's nothing. So, why not do it? Even if I'm fairly confident that no one will try to snipe me, why risk it? Better cast Ironguard and just be immune to all metal-based weapons.

You don't have to be full on Tippy-paranoid, with layered contingencies of teleport and resurrection, but a minimal investment is probably a good idea since it's all you need against anyone with no magic of their own.

[Segev]

Hm. If I have the WBL and the thus fully-stocked spellbook of my level 20 wizardness? Well, first off, I'm set for life, financially, so that's a huge plus.

I have a lot of divinations to perform. I may actually get a lot of mileage out of the dream spell, despite usually finding it lackluster in games. In a world where few believe in magic, transporting myself to the dreams of individuals whose true intentions I wish to know, whose motivations I wish to understand, and with whom I'd like to leave ideas they might mistake as their own would be quite handy. Especially if I can find a way to stack suggestion into the mix, though that's not required.

Once I know a lot more of the truth behind the highly-politicized, distorted, and partisan pictures painted of the world stage and the people involved therein, I could determine what, if anything, I need to get involved with.

On a personal level, there are a few things on which I'd be burning XP via (limited) wish; I have family I would wish to not be burdened with the special needs they have, amongst other things. I'd also probably be getting myself +5 inherent bonuses to at least my Int, and probably my Wis and Cha, and then I'd go for the physicals if I had the resources.

I may get ambitious and go take over some third-world nation run by a tinpot dictator. I couldn't make things worse with my meddling, and I might make them better.

[liquidformat]

One of the key things is that most govts today cant handle any one power that has an edge. A single individual who has all the power and the edges?! Cause of concern for many. Although I would like to hear from your view how you would go about your day, so to speak as an archmage.
I do doubt this action. Even if you were considered a great threat, maybe even the greatest threat in the world, you can always dodge a nuke. Moreover, most countries aren't going to immediately try to nuke you, current politics notwithstanding. I've always found the nuke'em option quite lacking, as if you maintain your travels around populated cities, they are not going to risk wiping out the world and everyone with it, just to get at one Wizard.

I find it comical that everyone took 'not hiding' to be equivalent to 'I will parade around and flaunt my power for all to see'. Lets go over this briefly, I have magic to make my own planes, make myself invisible, illusion magic to make people see or hear whatever I want, divine just about anything, compulsions to make people do whatever I want, enough firepower to destroy nations in short order, enough abjurations to protect myself from just about anything, ability to magically change myself and others as I see fit, can conjure up whatever I need. And to top it all off I am the only person or one of the few people that know magic is real, how it works, and how to identify it when it happens.

So ya with that type of arsenal I don't see a reason to specifically hide myself, but I also don't need to parade around claiming myself as a god and have hordes of people follow me around worshiping me to accomplish any goals I have. When you have the ability to make entire nations or perhaps even the world do what you want without showing your face or them knowing who you are why do you need to go out of your way to hide?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I find it comical that everyone took 'not hiding' to be equivalent to 'I will parade around and flaunt my power for all to see'. Lets go over this briefly, I have magic to make my own planes, make myself invisible, illusion magic to make people see or hear whatever I want, divine just about anything, compulsions to make people do whatever I want, enough firepower to destroy nations in short order, enough abjurations to protect myself from just about anything, ability to magically change myself and others as I see fit, can conjure up whatever I need. And to top it all off I am the only person or one of the few people that know magic is real, how it works, and how to identify it when it happens.

So ya with that type of arsenal I don't see a reason to specifically hide myself, but I also don't need to parade around claiming myself as a god and have hordes of people follow me around worshiping me to accomplish any goals I have. When you have the ability to make entire nations or perhaps even the world do what you want without showing your face or them knowing who you are why do you need to go out of your way to hide?Already answered this one.


So, you're essentially a god, and any time you go out in public without taking pains to hide yourself, the mindless masses mob you. You might not mind that. I definitely would.

The easiest way to avoid that is via obscurity. Sure, you could alter self whenever you go out, but that seems like a waste of a spell slot to me. At the very least, your public persona should be the illusion, to reduce the amount of daily resources you have to commit. And at that point, you're doing the same thing as I would be, albeit in a different way.

Not parading yourself around like that does reduce the risk of being shot at with entire nuclear arsenals, at least, since nobody knows you're there that you don't want to know you're there. You could more than likely tank the blast, but I doubt anyone or anything in your vicinity would survive the fallout.

[Eldonauran]

I find it comical that everyone took 'not hiding' to be equivalent to 'I will parade around and flaunt my power for all to see'. It is not actually all that comical. You'd be surprised at how perceptive people are and how they can put things together. Sure, it might take a few years before people catch on, and you'd be well prepared for most contingencies, but it will become a concern sooner than you expect, especially if you make an early mistake. Most spells have verbal, somatic, and material components. You will need to refill that spell component pouch (I know the game hand waves certain things) and your purchase will garner attention, especially in our day and age where things are tracked more easily. You might even pop up on a government watch list simply because you spending habits have changes drastically in a short amount of time.

[Andor13]

I find it comical that everyone took 'not hiding' to be equivalent to 'I will parade around and flaunt my power for all to see'. Lets go over this briefly, I have magic to make my own planes, make myself invisible, illusion magic to make people see or hear whatever I want, divine just about anything, compulsions to make people do whatever I want, enough firepower to destroy nations in short order, enough abjurations to protect myself from just about anything, ability to magically change myself and others as I see fit, can conjure up whatever I need. And to top it all off I am the only person or one of the few people that know magic is real, how it works, and how to identify it when it happens.

So ya with that type of arsenal I don't see a reason to specifically hide myself, but I also don't need to parade around claiming myself as a god and have hordes of people follow me around worshiping me to accomplish any goals I have. When you have the ability to make entire nations or perhaps even the world do what you want without showing your face or them knowing who you are why do you need to go out of your way to hide?

What distinction, exactly, are you drawing between using illusions, shape-shifting and mind control to prevent people from knowing your face, what you're doing, or who you are, and hiding?

[AvatarVecna]

What distinction, exactly, are you drawing between using illusions, shape-shifting and mind control to prevent people from knowing your face, what you're doing, or who you are, and hiding?

Presumably the same difference the actual game mechanics make between Bluff, Disguise, and Hide. Only acting from an unenterable unlocatable personal demiplane or putting on a magically-enhanced Groucho Marx gag disguise that can fool any human on the planet is quite different from just not using magic powers while people are watching enough that they can put the clues together.

[Calthropstu]

Help?

I would annihilate everything. No, seriously this world is ****. After killing everyone and everything, I would reboot the world from scratch. PAO a bunch of dust into animals and plants, reboot the atmosphere, create a woman and poof. New Earth.

No more stupid bull****, I would guide the new human race (all descendants of me) toward a better path.

Does that make me evil?

[Eldonauran]

Help?

I would annihilate everything. No, seriously this world is ****. After killing everyone and everything, I would reboot the world from scratch. PAO a bunch of dust into animals and plants, reboot the atmosphere, create a woman and poof. New Earth.

No more stupid bull****, I would guide the new human race (all descendants of me) toward a better path.

Does that make me evil?Eh, yes? You could just take measures to lock the human race on their planet, shift planes or travel to another planet and start all over from there. Personally, I think starting over would be a big waste of time, at least in the beginning. But, whatever, you'd be the one in charge and would be making the rules.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Help?

I would annihilate everything. No, seriously this world is ****. After killing everyone and everything, I would reboot the world from scratch. PAO a bunch of dust into animals and plants, reboot the atmosphere, create a woman and poof. New Earth.

No more stupid bull****, I would guide the new human race (all descendants of me) toward a better path.

Does that make me evil?For forcing your children to engage in incest?

Yes. Yes, it does.

[Eldonauran]

For forcing your children to engage in incest?

Yes. Yes, it does.Well, to be perfectly honest, it is only the risk of genetic defects being passed along that drives the disgust behind those particular actions. If there was some way to eliminate the risks of defects being passed along, such as a perfect genetic code free from damage and mutations, there would only be the cultural problem to face. Wiping out the human race and starting over, there wouldn't be any of those factors to deal with (once you fix the genetics).

But, that is merely a disassociated way of looking at the issue, absent from any sort of emotional reflexes or knee jerk reactions to the topic. Pure fact, nothing more.

Besides, gross.

[Andor13]

Well, to be perfectly honest, it is only the risk of genetic defects being passed along that drives the disgust behind those particular actions. If there was some way to eliminate the risks of defects being passed along, such as a perfect genetic code free from damage and mutations, there would only be the cultural problem to face. Wiping out the human race and starting over, there wouldn't be any of those factors to deal with (once you fix the genetics).

But, that is merely a disassociated way of looking at the issue, absent from any sort of emotional reflexes or knee jerk reactions to the topic. Pure fact, nothing more.

Besides, gross.

Sure, but since random mutation is a thing, once a decent crop of mutations crept into the gene code then incest would once again be a bad plan, even if you started from a flawless base set. Only now your society would have lost the incest taboo, and would have to learn it again the hard way.

Oh, and genocideing every living thing on earth is also kind of squicky. Why would you want to kill adorable sky puppies?
https://youtu.be/Z6FPPNDbjGk

[Jack_Simth]

Well, to be perfectly honest, it is only the risk of genetic defects being passed along that drives the disgust behind those particular actions. If there was some way to eliminate the risks of defects being passed along, such as a perfect genetic code free from damage and mutations, there would only be the cultural problem to face. Wiping out the human race and starting over, there wouldn't be any of those factors to deal with (once you fix the genetics).You'd have to keep fixing the genetics for a long, long time (until you've got enough of a population base that individual members dying solves it for you). Genetic mutation happens, and all such observed in a lab have been either neutral or destructive of function.

[Eldonauran]

You'd have to keep fixing the genetics for a long, long time (until you've got enough of a population base that individual members dying solves it for you). Genetic mutation happens, and all such observed in a lab have been either neutral or destructive of function.
Sure, but starting from a perfect set (and assuming a perfect set had a very efficient method of self-repair, since you know, perfect) it would probably take scores of generations before anything became a problem. We aren't assuming a genetic code that self evolved over eons, riddled with random mutations. I wouldn't worry about eliminating those with poor genetics either, since the morality of doing so wouldn't be a problem with who genocided an entire species to start over.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I really don't want to encourage the whole panicidal maniac thing, but a triple helix DNA strand would have absolutely ridiculous redundancy. Mutations would be very nearly (but not entirely) impossible.

Just saying.

[Nifft]

I really don't want to encourage the whole panicidal maniac thing, but a triple helix DNA strand would have absolutely ridiculous redundancy. Mutations would be very nearly (but not entirely) impossible.

Just saying.

"Parity is for farmers."

[liquidformat]

What distinction, exactly, are you drawing between using illusions, shape-shifting and mind control to prevent people from knowing your face, what you're doing, or who you are, and hiding?

People were saying they would hide away, buildup a base, make all sorts of contingencies, make bunch of clones and so on and so forth then go and do the stuff and things. I am just saying with that level of power and only having a very small population of other magically inclined persons becoming a shuttin afraid of the world and only letting projections of your clones interact with the outside world seems ridiculous when you could just use disguise self and then suggestion to tell people they never saw your disguised self and get in almost anywhere.

[Jack_Simth]

People were saying they would hide away, buildup a base, make all sorts of contingencies, make bunch of clones and so on and so forth then go and do the stuff and things. I am just saying with that level of power and only having a very small population of other magically inclined persons becoming a shuttin afraid of the world and only letting projections of your clones interact with the outside world seems ridiculous when you could just use disguise self and then suggestion to tell people they never saw your disguised self and get in almost anywhere.Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive a car? Do you have smoke alarms in your place of residence? Do you lock your home when you leave for the day?

Is it fear that causes folks to do these things? Sometimes, but not in general. It's taking "reasonable precautions". What's "reasonable" depends on what resources you have available and the likelihood of the thing you're protecting against. Most folks have car insurance in case of a wreck, homeowners/renters insurance in case of fire/theft, smoke detectors in case of fire, and so on. A wealthy person also invests in diversified assets in case a market segment crashes, a reinforced property line and some guards in case of social upheaval, political causes in case of law changes, and so on. As the resources go up, so do the reasonable precautions.

A level 20 Wizard has close to limitless resources if the spells are used towards building resources. It takes a few days to set yourself up with a private demiplane, an Astral Projection, and a Simulacrum of an Advanced Solar - and it'll probably not need a reset for decades. On that time scale, it's proportionally less resources spent than most folks in the US spend on their car insurance - and it protects against more (and worse) threats than a garden-variety car wreck. As a bonus, it can also make you essentially ageless (body's in stasis, so you only age when your projection gets killed, and then only until the next casting... and if you make the plane timeless with respect to aging, you're pretty much set - as another bonus: Your astral projection still ages as normal, which means you don't have to make excuses for why you're not aging - as far as anyone can tell, you are!). Why wouldn't you?

Also: You're hardly a shut-in if you're using Astral Projection. Sure, your real body is tucked away elsewhere, but you're out shaking hands, meeting people, and doing things.

“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
― Steven Brust

[Eldan]

People were saying they would hide away, buildup a base, make all sorts of contingencies, make bunch of clones and so on and so forth then go and do the stuff and things. I am just saying with that level of power and only having a very small population of other magically inclined persons becoming a shuttin afraid of the world and only letting projections of your clones interact with the outside world seems ridiculous when you could just use disguise self and then suggestion to tell people they never saw your disguised self and get in almost anywhere.

Astral Projection is one spell slot, and makes me basically immune to death, as far as this world is concerned. Why wouldn't I cast it? Plus, you know. Suggestion is not going to save me if I'm run over by a car, or fall off a ladder, or slip in the shower.

The disguise is just a bonus on top of that. See my comment on hedonism? Maybe I just want to eat a twelve course meal on a tropical island, without being recognized as the ruler of the world.

[MultitudeMan]

I suppose, in the end, after I've tasted all the various intricacies of the universe, and the bickering of the lifeforms within it, I'd retire to a long slumber, to await a new frontier. Before that, I would probably cast every lifeform into a plane of existence all their own, granting them creative power within that realm and tell them to have fun. I'm done playing.

Really? You'd cut off every sentient lifeform in the universe from all of their existing relationships, and consider that you're doing them a favour? That's cold, even for a functional demi-god.

I also notice that the thread has moved to a discussion of whether there would be any problems with incest after rebooting the world :smalleek: . Near-omnipotence does worrying things to ethics, even in hypothesis.

[Xar Zarath]

...I may get ambitious and go take over some third-world nation run by a tinpot dictator. I couldn't make things worse with my meddling, and I might make them better.

Hmm, interested to know which nation you would like to order around? Something too big might be too much, something small would be good. Or aim for an entire continent like, maybe Africa?

[Eldan]

Hmmm. Which continent would I take... probably Europe? Thing is, I don't need resources or labour. I can make those. I'd want a continent with educated administrators, luxury items and a solid pre-existing infrastructure.

On the other hand, starting from a blank slate somewhere in a desert might be interesting as a challenge. But then, I might just as well go to Antarctica or Mars.

[Elkad]

Well, let's start by saying that I am a terrible, terrible person, but I generally have my heart in the right place.

8 terrible steps snipped


I'd rather live in a world with Red Fel. At least maybe then I can duck the evil. Yours is all-encompassing.

I get your goal, but your methodology is terrifying.

[unseenmage]

Again, I just want to mention that canonically alternate Prime Material planes exist and are generally agreed to be accessible via magic.

No reason to wipe & reinstall humanity when you could just bug out to an alternate universe of your choosing.

Worst case you get knocked home by a Banishment effect and just Plane Shift/Gate/whatever back.

[Segev]

Hmm, interested to know which nation you would like to order around? Something too big might be too much, something small would be good. Or aim for an entire continent like, maybe Africa?
I hear Cuba is nice. Already set up as a giant plantation, good environment for cash crops and tourism. Some wizard-powered reforms and some [insert socio-political reforms here], and it’d be quite nice. (I have ideas what I’d do socio-politically, but that would derail into “hat wouldn’t work!/of course it would work! And veer off topic. Suffice it to say, I could experiment and fix it if it went wrong, being a 20th level wizard.)

Africa has potential, but might be too big for a first try. If I want to do mad wizard bioexperimentation, of course, there is Austailia’s outback. That and the Antarctic have advantages in nobody being in a position to contest me for them.

[Xar Zarath]

I hear Cuba is nice. Already set up as a giant plantation, good environment for cash crops and tourism. Some wizard-powered reforms and some [insert socio-political reforms here], and it’d be quite nice. (I have ideas what I’d do socio-politically, but that would derail into “hat wouldn’t work!/of course it would work! And veer off topic. Suffice it to say, I could experiment and fix it if it went wrong, being a 20th level wizard.)

Africa has potential, but might be too big for a first try. If I want to do mad wizard bioexperimentation, of course, there is Austailia’s outback. That and the Antarctic have advantages in nobody being in a position to contest me for them.

You could do all sorts of experiments worldwide but unless you take precautions, you might leave something useful for others to find and exploit against you.

I would ask though, why Cuba? Its not exactly the "best" country at least in my mind. And while you are a Wizard who had no equal, its a little too close to the good ol'US of A. They might try something, maybe even worse that Bay of Pigs if they felt like you were giving Cuba the magical edge.

For me I'd like to play all the great powers against one another, though that's more for trolling. Say I will help one of them with my immense powers but lead them on. Though they would catch on pretty quick.

[Nifft]

I would ask though, why Cuba? Its not exactly the "best" country at least in my mind.

Some people like to fix things.

That's part of why I enjoy D&D, for example. There's just so much that needs fixing.

[Eldonauran]

Really? You'd cut off every sentient lifeform in the universe from all of their existing relationships, and consider that you're doing them a favour? That's cold, even for a functional demi-god.Yep. Though, I don't think it would be doing them a favor. It would simply be me removing any need for me to mitigate any conflicts and bickering between them and giving them some new toys to play with until they've reached my own level of understanding. As far as I am concerned, it would be a fairly more benevolent end than ending all life in the universe so that I might get some peace and quiet.

I am not making any particular claim towards being nice, kind, benevolent, or high on the morality scale, especially when dealing with that kind of power at my disposal. That choice, as I said, would be towards the end of the road, something everyone should take into account. I am just being realistic about it. Probably why I first said that I really should not be given that kind of power. I COULD do a lot of 'good' with it but I would probably end up misusing it. I would end up becoming frustrated when people used their 'free will' to continually rebel and cause chaos, just to spite me.


I also notice that the thread has moved to a discussion of whether there would be any problems with incest after rebooting the world :smalleek: . Near-omnipotence does worrying things to ethics, even in hypothesis.Meh, it was a factual thought exercise that someone else brought up that might have been a concern. And yes, Near-omnipotence brings with it many issues that need to be addressed, especially the consequences of each decision you make.

Anyway ... Speaking of that issue:

I really don't want to encourage the whole panicidal maniac thing, but a triple helix DNA strand would have absolutely ridiculous redundancy. Mutations would be very nearly (but not entirely) impossible.

Just saying. That might pose an even larger problem, specifically how the triple helix would divide evenly in the cell, especially during mitosis. Reproduction would probably have to involve three parties, further increasing the redundancy. :smallconfused:

[Segev]

You could do all sorts of experiments worldwide but unless you take precautions, you might leave something useful for others to find and exploit against you.

I would ask though, why Cuba? Its not exactly the "best" country at least in my mind. And while you are a Wizard who had no equal, its a little too close to the good ol'US of A. They might try something, maybe even worse that Bay of Pigs if they felt like you were giving Cuba the magical edge.

For me I'd like to play all the great powers against one another, though that's more for trolling. Say I will help one of them with my immense powers but lead them on. Though they would catch on pretty quick.


Some people like to fix things.

That's part of why I enjoy D&D, for example. There's just so much that needs fixing.
Partially Nifft's point.

Partially that Cuba seems like a bit of a low-hanging fruit. Its centralized structure means, after enough divination to make sure I have a comprehensive list, I only need to mind-whammy a tyrant and his inner circle of oligarchs to take over. The US has been remarkably hands-off with regards to tyrants in their own sphere of influence; provided I don't make any aggressive motions towards US interests, things should work out alright. If I'm particularly clever and good with the mind-control, nobody need even know there's new management. Only that Raul or whoever it is I place on the throne has had a sudden urge to "reform."

If it happened NOW, I could even use the N. Korea talks as an excuse; Kim Jong-Un is talking reform (we'll see if he means it), so a second tyrant doing so won't be too surprising.

The trouble with being one wizard - even a level 20 wizard - is that nukes (which is what I am) don't hold ground. I need loyal bureaucrats and soldiers and police to even begin to control something the size of Cuba, no matter how laissez faire I might wish to be. It'd be great to win those by honest shared ideals, but I may well need to be liberal with my Enchantment spells. ...though contacting the Cuban expats in the USA might work, too. I don't know if they're too far removed, generationally, from emigration to care anymore, but if they care...

Anyway. Openly or as the puppet master, taking control of Cuba is one of the easier nations in the world to manage for a single exceedingly powerful man. It's also very nice, climate-wise, and I think a different economic system would turn it around very fast due to the natural advantages it provides to a people free to optimize their resource utilization. Using a Wulfenbach-style "don't make me come over there" enforcement style would probably be optimal for the all-knowing diviner and all-controlling enchanter. Or all-smiting evoker, if I really have to. And again, divination magic means I can be a lot more sure of the truth behind any apparent criminality, which helps root out corrupt officials trying to weaponize me against people who just were defending themselves.

I would probably actually try to conceal HOW I'm doing a lot of what I do. Avoiding obvious magic and hiding the mind-control means the political stage doesn't know what they're dealing with. Ideally, I could make legitimately-negotiated deals with any world powers that took an interest (the USA does come to mind), but I have charm person in my back pocket if all else fails. Heck, I have dominate person if I really need it, but I am not really of a mind to try to make the USA a puppet of mine. It's too big to manage, and too likely to go wrong. I'd much prefer to genuinely earn Uncle Sam's friendship.

And, yes, I would absolutely be using a demiplane or a magnificent mansion to house my slumbering body while I astral project around for anything I'm doing publicly. Possibly at all. Playing on this level of politics means worrying about assassins, after all. And while contingencies work, they're expensive...and more layers of defense are always good.

And there's also always magic jar.

[Quertus]

Well, I suppose I may as well present my dystopia for critique.

Were I given functionally unlimited power, how would my mind break? I've got some pretty good ideas on that, which is no small part of why I'd run away. But let's say I didn't.

After achieving immortality, nigh-untouchability, etc, what would I do?

Well, I wouldn't be content with that. I'd research new spells until I approached too close to the heat death of the universe to be convenient, teleport through time into the past to repeat the process as many times as necessary to feel confident beginning my process of "improvement".

Mind you, I wouldn't just be researching, oh no! I'd find a way to inhabit multiple bodies simultaneously, so that I could play videogames, RPGs, or otherwise engage in my brand of hedonism simultaneously with research. And apply Mindrape as necessary to keep myself on task.

So, what would my research-powered dystopia look like? Well, there would exist a not exactly sentient being, connected to the minds and souls of everyone else on the planet (or in the universe, or whatever). It would know everything about everyone - their thoughts, hopes, dreams, memories. Things they had forgotten. I could query it for the answers to any questions regarding humanity, perhaps animals, plants, and alien lifeforms, too. This would form the core of my dystopia.

Now, there's all kinds of good I could do with this - and all kinds of evil, too. I could turn humanity into the Borg, or otherwise connect all their minds. I could implement true democracy, where everyone could be fully informed on any issue, and the leaders could be instantly informed what popular opinion says that The People want done. I could use it as a conduit for planetary Mindrape, to make people better. I could subtly manipulate people to suspect truths that would better humanity on an individual scale, or open these thoughts up to those with the benevolence and good will to use them well. Since simulacra cannot grow, I could create perfect social workers who never get burned out by their job, who proactively improve humanity.

Who knows - I might, on a whim, randomly implement any or all of those, just to see what happens so long as I have researched a reset button to be able to undo failures, and try a different path.

But, let's say I'm lazy, and don't want to be bothered with personally meddling with humanity. And paranoid about the possibility of my death, and not wanting to leave things where they'd fall apart in that horrible circumstance. What would I do then? What dystopia would I create if I "went public"?

Well, probably the proactive social workers, who fix problems before they happen, would be a good plan. I'd probably create a new species. Give them SLAs to bring each other (and me?) back from inoperable. I might even give them some angelic properties. Then create simulacra of the most promising models, to be humanity"s eternal caretakers.

But the big telepathic speech that introduced them to all of humanity simultaneously? They would be the carrot. Here's the stick: the Soul Hydra, the Billion Eyed One, the whatever-other-title-marketing-says-is-catchy, would be given a simple program to follow. That program is to, every day, choose the thousand worst people in the world (based on my criteria). I would review the list, remove any names I cared to (new names would be select to fill in those exempted), then the rest of those on the list would die. And, from my telepathic speech, the world would know this - that, every day, the thousand worst people will die.

Now, this program is completely editable by me, and, even without such editing, is based on current human population, so that, even if I die, it will continue working in such a way as to not endanger humanity should the population suddenly drop. A thousand is just how many names will populate the list at roughly current population levels. And it has an "evilness" limit that, should no-one be that evil, the list will be blank, regardless of the size of the human population. Although I may regret that decision, and edit it out later.

Now, I'm not sure what would carry out those death sentences, but I suspect that it should have some sentient. Perhaps an improved simulacrum (like Ice Assassin, but no "kill the source" clause) of myself? Something that will never rebel, but can choose when to kill someone rather than kill a doctor in the middle of surgery, for example.

Then, I'd set about creating a "better world" on another, distant planet (likely far in the past), creating Humanity 2.0, and compare the results of normal earth, dystopia earth, and new earth.

Maybe then, once I was satisfied with my work, if I hadn't done so yet, I'd research just how I suddenly acquitted these powers. I might wait this long for fear that such research might be dangerous to my otherwise nigh-invulnerable self.

So, critique away regarding my lazy, hands-off dystopia.

[Andor13]

Anyway ... Speaking of that issue:
That might pose an even larger problem, specifically how the triple helix would divide evenly in the cell, especially during mitosis. Reproduction would probably have to involve three parties, further increasing the redundancy. :smallconfused:

Radiodurans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans) already gives us a good model for ensuring genetic stability. The better question is "Why would that be desirable?" Since I'm far from convinced that current humanity represents the pinnacle of achievable intelligence or design.

[sjeshin]

I would immediately create bases at the bottom of the sea via creation spells and endure elements to allow their creation to go smoothly followed by researching the information I need to creat war trolls with the psuedonatural template. Even nuclear bombs don't do acid damage. In all seriousness it would be a cataclysmic rework of the order of things. When you have the ability to read someone's true intent and stop time at will I can see very easily attempting to play god and rid the world of cruel dangerous people and controlling the weather to stop dangerous storms, droughts, and giving people the freedom to persue living happiness.

[druid91]

All these 'Mind Control World Leaders and Take Over' People.... <.<


Personally. I'd craft a Thought Bottle right off the bat. Create a Demiplane, build a facility in it.

Rent a Truck, cast Wall of Iron, and Fabricate to make a few tons of Iron and dump them off at Some Salvage Places for startup money. Buy gold, Fabricate them into coins. Then create a Trap of Fabricate that replicates gold coins.

I now have destroyed the WBL guidelines with infinite money. Which thanks to Magic Item Creation Rules allows me infinite power. Since thanks to the Thought Bottle I have as much XP as I want.

So what next? Well, firstly I sell off some of the gold to buy OTHER rare minerals, that can then be replicated endlessly, start a shell company that sells rare earth minerals in large quantities for low (For the Market) Prices. Again, use this money to aquire more and more materials diversifying the level of stuff you can produce. Hire Engineers to develop novel technologies taking advantage of the truly ludicrous amount of otherwise rare materials you have in your possession. Also your ability to produce things from literally thin air with no real effort or materials required.

Things would continue in this manner as this shell company slowly rose to greater and greater prominence. Move into other areas of the production economy. Put sweatshops out of business because even barely paid slave labor can't compete with literally conjuring 14,400 complete units out of thin air per day, with a one time production cost of 100 units. Not to mention other industries. All production facilities contained in Demiplanes of course. Then products can be brought via portal into earthside warehouses as needed.

From there, I own the planet. Society will become increasingly reliant upon me, and my megacorps means of production. No labor required. At least none that I can't provide via Simulacrum spam and constructs.

Take the time to Become a Lich at some point.

Spend a few hundred years working on constructing wish Traps that create useful combat gear and weapons. Waiting for Society to reshape itself around my cornucopea of goods.

Then, as a Side Project. I Introduce Baator to Nuclear Armageddon.

Now Avernus is roughly 22,000 Miles in Diameter. (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Gi3uGYkv4eI/WHib7RaZ_qI/AAAAAAAAKyw/PcopReeKWIESnZM1jKREUIoMOU2jNOpnQCLcB/s1600/ninehellsmap3odex.jpg) The Next layer down is roughly 19,000 Miles in Diameter. Google Math gives the resulting area as 386,000,000 Square Miles of Space within Avernus before intruding on Dis.

Once a Fabricate Nuclear ICBM trap has been brought online it would produce 14,400 Nuclear ICBM's every twenty four hours. Meaning it would take 73 years to produce enough nukes via a single mechanism to drop a missile on every single square mile of Avernus.... Unless of course you put the mechanism into a plane with the flowing time trait. In which case, a single day will produce 75,686,400,000 Missiles. More than enough to plant 196 Nukes PER SQUARE MILE of territory within Avernus. With a single mechanism. Every Day.

With that amount of Atomic Dakka at hand, I proceed to level Avernus, because while the Devils will assuredly take the great heat from Atomic weapons no problem, they will most definitely not be so resistant to the blast wave.

How much XP is All of Avernus Worth again?

Judging by it's effects on Steel in early testing (Notably vaporizing a 14 inch thick steel container.). A Nuke would, at minimum, deal 430 Damage to those caught in the effect. Saturation Bombardment as described above would deal 840,280 HP of Damage to Every Creature and Object on Avernus' Surface. Incidentally, more than enough to even kill EPIC level monsters. And dealing Nearly one Twelfth of the Damage necessary to outright shatter Avernus, presuming a thickness of Two Hundred Miles and a predominantly stone structure. Any surface structures would be more than likely destroyed. As would any (living? Outsidering?) beings.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thought bottles do not provide limitless XP. The amount it can garner is certainly egregious enough to warrant it being banned by the GMs that do so. If you can subject yourself to an energy drain effect and have 190,500xp then you can use 95k of that and still be level 20 at the end of it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thought bottles do not provide limitless XP.They very nearly do if you get multiples. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes)

[Xar Zarath]

...Then, as a Side Project. I Introduce Baator to Nuclear Armageddon.

Now Avernus is roughly 22,000 Miles in Diameter. (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Gi3uGYkv4eI/WHib7RaZ_qI/AAAAAAAAKyw/PcopReeKWIESnZM1jKREUIoMOU2jNOpnQCLcB/s1600/ninehellsmap3odex.jpg) The Next layer down is roughly 19,000 Miles in Diameter. Google Math gives the resulting area as 386,000,000 Square Miles of Space within Avernus before intruding on Dis.

Once a Fabricate Nuclear ICBM trap has been brought online it would produce 14,400 Nuclear ICBM's every twenty four hours. Meaning it would take 73 years to produce enough nukes via a single mechanism to drop a missile on every single square mile of Avernus.... Unless of course you put the mechanism into a plane with the flowing time trait. In which case, a single day will produce 75,686,400,000 Missiles. More than enough to plant 196 Nukes PER SQUARE MILE of territory within Avernus. With a single mechanism. Every Day.

With that amount of Atomic Dakka at hand, I proceed to level Avernus, because while the Devils will assuredly take the great heat from Atomic weapons no problem, they will most definitely not be so resistant to the blast wave.

How much XP is All of Avernus Worth again?

Just to entertain this particular choice of actions, after the mushroom clouds have cleared, you do know that every duke of Hell would come after you right? I mean, going logically by the scenario, even archdukes would come after you. That kind of action cannot be ignored and you would be quite doomed.

[Deeds]

Dominate Person - "Mr. President, your political agenda is to research and fund a real Santa Claus."

[AvatarVecna]

Dominate Person - "Mr. President, your political agenda is to research and fund a real Santa Claus."

By some standards, a sane and financially realistic policy. Couldn't say whose standards, of course, but still.

[Xar Zarath]

... Possibly at all. Playing on this level of politics means worrying about assassins, after all. And while contingencies work, they're expensive...and more layers of defense are always good.

And there's also always magic jar.

Hmm, after a while when the assassins and the people who hired them realised they can't get you, its gonna look suspicious right?

You might have to get out the Mindrape to stop them permanently.

[Crichton]

How much XP is All of Avernus Worth again?



You're currently a level 20 wizard? At most, it will be worth precisely enough to take you within 1 point of becoming level 22.

[Segev]

Hmm, after a while when the assassins and the people who hired them realised they can't get you, its gonna look suspicious right?

You might have to get out the Mindrape to stop them permanently.

I think my official position would be "body doubles."

Making sure that the assassins were hunted down and made public examples of would probably start to put a damper on it, too. Again: divination means I don't make mistakes and hit innocent parties.

Irony points might mean not making examples of the assassins, but dominating them into making examples of their bosses. It would depend what I uncovered in my investigations. If I actually thought the responsible parties were not evil, just misunderstanding my intentions, I might even reach out (quietly) to them to try to get on the same page and prevent further harm caused by miscommunication.

That this might look like more mind control is unfortunate. That it might involve some is even more so, though if I was willing to kill off political rivals for being sufficiently evil, I would probably be okay with mind control.

Mindrape is just ridiculously effective. Used in key places, it could induce a Berenstain Effect.

[druid91]

Just to entertain this particular choice of actions, after the mushroom clouds have cleared, you do know that every duke of Hell would come after you right? I mean, going logically by the scenario, even archdukes would come after you. That kind of action cannot be ignored and you would be quite doomed.

Certainly they would. At least the ones who survived the bombardment. But the thing is, they can't leave hell freely. They need to be summoned, or gated in.

Combine with the fact that no people on Earth can gain class levels, thus heading off concerns of Diabolical cults? I'm effectively golden.

[tstewt1921]

I would use it only for myself, and try to actively hide the fact that it's used, because people would be terrified of things like that, look at any movie....normal people would be terrified.

[Segev]

Certainly they would. At least the ones who survived the bombardment. But the thing is, they can't leave hell freely. They need to be summoned, or gated in.

Combine with the fact that no people on Earth can gain class levels, thus heading off concerns of Diabolical cults? I'm effectively golden.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. Most of them have plane shift at least once per day. At least, of the higher-end types.

[AnonymousPepper]

The thing to remember is that you are literally unkillable with a very trivial amount of effort. You do not have to worry about spell slots, because your wealth is infinite thanks to resetting Wish traps, and thus your magic items are infinite, and so is your XP thanks to Thought Bottle and other similar shenanigans.

Thus, having a permanently active Starmantle and Evasion (Ruin Delver's Fortune) effect, add in a Neutralize Poison and a Favor of the Martyr and Freedom of Movement, and the five Energy Immunities, with a Friendly Fire thrown on for good measure, plus maybe a Ghostform if you so choose, is easily within your reach. Slightly harder to get but likely still doable would also be Adapt Body off the Psion list, and then you can avoid dying from being spaced; for a lesser substitute, Water Breathing is a must. Tack on an at-will Wish for the versatility and the teleport clause (and, for safety when traveling the planes, throw in an Invoke Magic and a Cleric-list Dismissal on top of a Selective Antimagic Field) while you're at it. You could imbue the effects onto an Immovable Rod and set the Immovable Rod's reference point as, say, your ribcage and then embed the Rod into your body, and boom, you're now impossible to kill without a Disjunction, which you will literally never encounter.

If you're still paranoid, Clones and contingent Revivify/True Res have you covered.

And then put all that behind an Astral Projection, unless the Gith are a thing, in which case go out of your way to pacify them however you see fit.

[ericgrau]

Barring questionable infinite loop cheese, I'd simply let Capitalism decide what's best to do. I'd sell my spells at a price and burn through all my slots every day that way. I'd raise the price until I risked not selling all the slots. And in case you're wondering what about feeding the world with my magic or some such rather than using it to get rich, I'd donate much of the money to some such charity and feed more than the spells would. Or else people would be buying food spells if that was better and it would feed just as many anyway.

However this would be step 73 after taking steps to protect myself from the initial responses to seeing magic. I imagine eventually those would die down.

[AnonymousPepper]

Barring questionable infinite loop cheese, I'd simply let Capitalism decide what's best to do. I'd sell my spells at a price and burn through all my slots every day that way. I'd raise the price until I risked not selling all the slots. And in case you're wondering what about feeding the world with my magic or some such rather than using it to get rich, I'd donate much of the money to some such charity and feed more than the spells would. Or else people would be buying food spells if that was better and it would feed just as many anyway.

However this would be step 73 after taking steps to protect myself from the initial responses to seeing magic. I imagine eventually those would die down.

I mean, even without getting into any kind of recursive loop cheese, feeding the world would be trivial as a Wiz20. Remember, the problem isn't food production, it's food distribution, and that you could solve almost trivially. The Tippyverse pretty clearly shows us what happens in a world where Teleportation Circle exists in a D&D setting. Now imagine that in the modern world. Imagine if you could have supermarkets toss their food a couple days before its expiry date into a permanent Teleportation Circle leading to a central distribution center (pay them with that money you're getting selling your magic, or with money you can literally make out of thin air with True Creation, or use constructs or planar allies or whatever), and they in turn could ship that food out back through another set of circles to cities around the world - the size of the destinations would decrease and distribution would grow more granular the longer time went on, until you could eventually have a circle in every village. And so far as spell slots go for that? Literally all you'd need would be at will Greater Teleport, at will Permanency (reminder: you only pay the XP cost of fifty Permanencies once, and that you could tank with a single Thought Bottle incredibly easily, and you'd want one anyway because making your super awesome wizard demiplane will cost you a good chunk of XP) and at will Teleportation Circle, all of which could easily be put on a magic item of some form, and none of these spells are caster-level dependent at all for your puproses, so it doesn't matter that you made those three items at minimum CL to cut costs.

(And, all three of them will doubtless be useful for you in other endeavors - don't even try to tell me you wouldn't get a ton of use out of free Greater Teleport and Permanency and at least some out of Teleportation Circle.)

The best thing about this is that food production will go massively up, because now there's zero lag between supply and demand other than the growing season itself, and distribution is now hyper-efficient (nearly infinitely so), meaning farmers worldwide can almost automatically supply food to anywhere that needs it regardless of their geographic location. Now farmers in the American Midwest and the Ukraine and all the other breadbasket regions of the world can laglessly and losslessly respond to the demands of the market, so they'll start growing all the food they can because of the guarantee of a market. And, better yet, areas that are only marginally suitable for food production can stop trying to finagle paltry yields out of poor soil, so bonus points for extra efficiency on land use, and those people can move into other trades that the region needs more.

Tl;dr: you could, without breaking a sweat and barely taxing your resources at all, completely eliminate almost all the inefficiency of food distribution within a couple months or so, depending on how much time you put into laying down Teleportation Circles, which is tantamount to feeding the world.

What I'm saying is this, fam: feeding the world would be an absolute babby-tier challenge for a Wiz20, to the point that it'd be unethical not to.
Like, according to some stats I dug up real quick, 36 million people die per year from malnutrition. You could literally prevent 36 million deaths annually with the expenditure of time, 1000xp (500 to craft the Thought Bottle and 500 to store your XP), and some gold that you can literally make out of thin air (you don't even have to go the True Creation route; you could just drop a few Walls of Iron and make money that way for your seed fund) - so, just time and 1000xp. And if the time was a problem, you could make a Simulacrum of yourself to do it for you, so, just 1000xp.
That's it.
It'd border on Evil not to do it.

(Oooooorrrrrrrrr of course you could just, yknow, make some resetting traps of Create Food and Water, and Heal while you're at it... but this is entirely without any of that sort of stuff.)

[AnonymousPepper]

Also, you could absolutely render climate change moot with some geoengineering. Go talk to the nerds at NOAA or your country's equivalent, figure out the average impact of dropping a Fimbulwinter, and then let them model where you could throw down a few to completely negate global warming. For funsies, get yourself a Greater Metamagic Rod of Widen Spell to get massively more area out of it (going from 1256 square miles at CL20 to 5026 square miles by doubling the radius - that's bigger than friggin' Connecticut).

Again, all you need is a single magic item and a couple spellcasts - and this would be far less casts, at that.

Just. Y'know. While we're talking about how absolutely trivial it'd be to completely un-$$$$ the world's biggest issues as a wizard.

(If you wanna get super frisky, you could start very carefully screwing around with Wish. Just sticking to safe Wishes with no real possible backfire effect like "I wish that all strains of the pathogen known as the Human Immunodeficiency Virus would forever lose their ability to evolve and adapt," could do almost infinite good, and that's a single spellcasting.)

[Calthropstu]

Ok, for real...

I would work with scientists to figure out how the following spells worked:
Teleportation.
True Creation.
Summon Monster.
Create Water.
Create food and drink.
Planar Binding.
Disintigrate.

Then I would help them develop machines that would:
Teleport people place to place, eliminating the need for cars, planes etc.
Create food as needed, distributing them to every household. Eliminate hunger and the need to waste billions of man hours appropriating, growing and distributing food.
Summon creatures to fuel food production to distribute with teleportation. Because created food may leave room for improvement.
Create furniture, clothes, buildings etc.
And turn those things to fine dust once no longer needed.

I would then eliminate the existing power structure that would resist such changes because money would become virtually obsolete.

Then I would help to establish a new structure based on the few viable industries in a post scarcity world.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd keep the fact that i have magic hidden and only use it for myself and my family.
Why? Because humanity already has all the tools to solve our problems, entirely without magic. We're just too pigheaded, greedy, lazy and complacent to use them.
The only way to change that is mind control, and - aside from the fact that if we literally have to be forced to not wipe ourselves out we kinda deserve it happening - doing that would basically turn me into a glorified babysitter.
Because you just know you'd constantly have to keep fixing peoples mistakes once they learn they don't have to deal with the consequences of their poor decisions.

[unseenmage]

Ok, for real...

I would work with scientists to figure out how the following spells worked:
Teleportation.
True Creation.
Summon Monster.
Create Water.
Create food and drink.
Planar Binding.
Disintigrate.

Then I would help them develop machines that would:
Teleport people place to place, eliminating the need for cars, planes etc.
Create food as needed, distributing them to every household. Eliminate hunger and the need to waste billions of man hours appropriating, growing and distributing food.
Summon creatures to fuel food production to distribute with teleportation. Because created food may leave room for improvement.
Create furniture, clothes, buildings etc.
And turn those things to fine dust once no longer needed.

I would then eliminate the existing power structure that would resist such changes because money would become virtually obsolete.

Then I would help to establish a new structure based on the few viable industries in a post scarcity world.
This can already be done via Faerunian Lantan tech, Ethergaunt tech, or Golarion's Numeria tech.
That last one literally has tech priced as magic items.

[ericgrau]

I mean, even without getting into any kind of recursive loop cheese, feeding the world would be trivial as a Wiz20. Remember, the problem isn't food production, it's food distribution, and that you could solve almost trivially. The Tippyverse pretty clearly shows us what happens in a world where Teleportation Circle exists in a D&D setting. Now imagine that in the modern world. Imagine if you could have supermarkets toss their food a couple days before its expiry date into a permanent Teleportation Circle leading to a central distribution center (pay them with that money you're getting selling your magic, or with money you can literally make out of thin air with True Creation, or use constructs or planar allies or whatever), and they in turn could ship that food out back through another set of circles to cities around the world - the size of the destinations would decrease and distribution would grow more granular the longer time went on, until you could eventually have a circle in every village. And so far as spell slots go for that? Literally all you'd need would be at will Greater Teleport, at will Permanency (reminder: you only pay the XP cost of fifty Permanencies once, and that you could tank with a single Thought Bottle incredibly easily

...

At $20,000-$100,000 a teleportation circle it's not trivial. But perhaps worth it. However I think shipping other goods would be a better use for it at least initially and command a better price for donation. Just like what I said if there is any good way to feed the world with magic then you could do just as well or better selling it. And when I said barring infinite loop cheese I also meant similar cheese such as thought bottles. Which really is another form of infinite or NI loop cheese via unlimited wealth and so on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you were doing this stuff in real life, there's no reason to NOT pull as much cheese as possible, barring moral or ethical concerns for things like mind control, when relevant. It's not like you'll be ticking off other players in a collaborative tabletop game.

[Quertus]

Because humanity already has all the tools to solve our problems, entirely without magic. We're just too pigheaded, greedy, lazy and complacent to use them.

Death of the Sun? Heat death of the universe? I can think of a few problems humanity seems ill-equipped to solve.

These are among the problems I'd be looking to solve were I a) given this power, and b) foolish enough to stick around.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Death of the Sun? Heat death of the universe? I can think of a few problems humanity seems ill-equipped to solve.

These are among the problems I'd be looking to solve were I a) given this power, and b) foolish enough to stick around.

Those are way too far off in the future to be worth worrying about imo.
Especially considering our more immediate problems are quite capable of wiping us out in a matter of centuries, assuming we don't rush things in a moment of idiocy (which is sadly possible and not as unlikely as we'd prefer).
Frankly if we're still around by the time either of those comes about i'd consider it a win. And a miracle.

I agree with the "foolish enough to stick around" part though. I'd probably use Plane Shift to find a better place (or just to travel) as soon as i'm done crafting my gear.

[Andor13]

Death of the Sun? Heat death of the universe? I can think of a few problems humanity seems ill-equipped to solve.

These are among the problems I'd be looking to solve were I a) given this power, and b) foolish enough to stick around.

These are kind of long term problems. Also the heat death of the universe is solved by a decanter of endless water, so....

[Eldonauran]

These are kind of long term problems. Also the heat death of the universe is solved by a decanter of endless water, so....... until you realize that magic uses the existing energy of universe (nothing is free, even magic has a price) and by using it, you increase the spiral of entropy. Magic follows rules in the D&D universe, which is why wizard study it (like scientists). Its energy comes from somewhere.

Or something along those lines. Where ever there is a wizard, there is a GM telling the story.

[AnonymousPepper]

At $20,000-$100,000 a teleportation circle it's not trivial. But perhaps worth it. However I think shipping other goods would be a better use for it at least initially and command a better price for donation. Just like what I said if there is any good way to feed the world with magic then you could do just as well or better selling it. And when I said barring infinite loop cheese I also meant similar cheese such as thought bottles. Which really is another form of infinite or NI loop cheese via unlimited wealth and so on.

You can literally materialize gold out of thin air, though, so, yeah, it is trivial. Also, if you're morally opposed to Thought Bottles, then just go Plane Shift to the front lines of the Blood War, drop a couple Holy Words, and leave with your newfound XP.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also, if you're morally opposed to Thought Bottles, then just go Plane Shift to the front lines of the Blood War, drop a couple Holy Words, and leave with your newfound XP.Or craft until you're right at level 20, hit yourself with a few negative levels, make them permanent, then hit yourself with a contingent limited wish for a greater restoration. Then you're back to halfway between level 20 and level 21. Repeat as often as necessary.

[Segev]

The actual problem with distribution of food is rarely transport, these days, and more often corrupt governments purloining all the largesse sent to their people.

You’d either need to deal with that problem directly, or you’d need to send the food in meal-sized chunks (so the people can eat before he thugs come to collect) directly to the people. And that would still be imperfect, as the thugs would just make it clear that not having anything to give them is as bad as resisting giving what they have.

[AnonymousPepper]

The actual problem with distribution of food is rarely transport, these days, and more often corrupt governments purloining all the largesse sent to their people.

You’d either need to deal with that problem directly, or you’d need to send the food in meal-sized chunks (so the people can eat before he thugs come to collect) directly to the people. And that would still be imperfect, as the thugs would just make it clear that not having anything to give them is as bad as resisting giving what they have.

That'd be the last mistake any thug would ever make, because you are an all-but-literal god built for combat and killing things. An Orb of Fire will guaranteed kill a level 1 or 2 commoner or warrior, and you can scry-and-fry with absolute impunity because as explained earlier you are quite literally unkillable if you so choose. Also, as your food distribution gets more and more granular it becomes easier and easier to discover problem spots. And, perhaps most importantly, basic psychology tells us that the majority of crimes, especially petty theft, occur due to lack; people will do literally anything to fill in the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy for very obvious reasons. Common thugs should drop off by orders of magnitude when you resolve cost of living, leaving just the big offenders and the psychopaths, who are much lower in number and fairly easily directly dealt with. Particularly when it's shown that the consequence of $$$$ing with the wizard is guaranteed death (or, if you're doing XP loop shenanigans and are opposed to killing, Sanctify the Wicked will do the trick just as well) in exchange for... very little. Only the very, very stupid will steal from the supply to satisfy something high up on the pyramid of needs when they're guaranteed to lose the bottom rung aka their lives - since you're knocking the very desperate out of the equation. And if manpower ever becomes a problem, Simulacrum will solve it without any trouble at all. Pop out a few, give them Greater Teleport and some other miscellaneous items, and order them to investigate and protect against threats to your food supply; they'll never go rogue because they're always explicitly under your direct control and are sentient, and because they've got most of the same powers as you thanks to magic items, they're pretty much just as dangerous as you to random thugs.

Like, seriously, that might be as easy a problem to solve as distribution.

Other things you can do, incidentally, with your direct combat power - enforced world peace. Cross a border in anger or fire a rocket over it, get Disintegrated or [War] Delayed Blast Fireballed by the invincible invisible wizard. Hell of a deterrent for waging war on your neighbors.
And incidentally, if ET ever comes knocking and they're not friendly, your presence is a hell of an insurance policy. Go full on Planar Shepherd using Planar Bubble and nuke the ever-loving crap out of the ayys because again you're completely invincible (or just Wish them into the Plane of Fire or something).

Also, before I forget, XP can also be sourced from Ambrosia, which you can get from, say, people whose lives you've saved by feeding them when they were starving or something.

[Elkad]

The actual problem with distribution of food is rarely transport, these days, and more often corrupt governments purloining all the largesse sent to their people.

You’d either need to deal with that problem directly, or you’d need to send the food in meal-sized chunks (so the people can eat before he thugs come to collect) directly to the people. And that would still be imperfect, as the thugs would just make it clear that not having anything to give them is as bad as resisting giving what they have.


Go bigger. More food traps. I want them to rain from the sky like Liberator pistols in occupied France.
Make them all shaped like giant legos, and dump so many peasants can build houses out of the extras.
They should be effectively valueless.

At a currently-high but ultimately-modest 100,000 people per square mile, we can house 20 trillion people just on land.
Bundle an Endure Elements effect in that trap, and they don't really even need the housing, or even clothing, anywhere inside the Arctic circles.
Build megapolii that run hundreds of stories high and we can get over a quadrillion.

Note that doesn't leave much room for anything else. Better get some permanent gates open to some garden planets.

So my baseline trap should do several things.
When you push the button it should feed you, and cast both Endure Elements and Cure Disease on you.
Cure disease is just insurance. Most of the time you won't need it, but it will be key to stopping epidemics in our new super-dense population.
Probably should give you some 24-hour temporary hitpoints as well, or a Persisted Lesser Vigor.

That'll extend lifespans to very near maximum for basically everyone.
Well maybe. Depends if Cure Disease fixes metabolic disfunctions like Type2 diabetes.

You could still die to massive damage, poison, lack of air, etc.

[Jack_Simth]

Go bigger. More food traps. I want them to rain from the sky like Liberator pistols in occupied France.
Make them all shaped like giant legos, and dump so many peasants can build houses out of the extras.
They should be effectively valueless.

At a currently-high but ultimately-modest 100,000 people per square mile, we can house 20 trillion people just on land.
Bundle an Endure Elements effect in that trap, and they don't really even need the housing, or even clothing, anywhere inside the Arctic circles.
Build megapolii that run hundreds of stories high and we can get over a quadrillion.

Note that doesn't leave much room for anything else. Better get some permanent gates open to some garden planets.

So my baseline trap should do several things.
When you push the button it should feed you, and cast both Endure Elements and Cure Disease on you.
Cure disease is just insurance. Most of the time you won't need it, but it will be key to stopping epidemics in our new super-dense population.
Probably should give you some 24-hour temporary hitpoints as well, or a Persisted Lesser Vigor.

That'll extend lifespans to very near maximum for basically everyone.
Well maybe. Depends if Cure Disease fixes metabolic disfunctions like Type2 diabetes.

You could still die to massive damage, poison, lack of air, etc.
Turns out there's spells for most things...
Food? Create Food and Water will work, but an extended Heroes' Feast does it better (also helps with poison, injury, disease).
Air? Persistent Deep Breath (although as a personal spell, you'll need to go through some hoops to apply it to folks).
Shelter? Endure Elements.
Injury? Heal, Persistent Lesser Vigor.
Poison? Persistent Neutralize Poison (it has a duration of follow-up immunity).
Disease? Heal, Cure Disease, or use Heroes' Feast for the food.
Ability Damage / Drain? Greater Restoration.

A warning on Persistent Lesser Vigor: It makes torture close to endless very easily.

Also... that assumes that automatic reset traps are infinite! They may not be, it's not clearly stated anywhere...

[AnonymousPepper]

Go bigger. More food traps. I want them to rain from the sky like Liberator pistols in occupied France.
Make them all shaped like giant legos, and dump so many peasants can build houses out of the extras.
They should be effectively valueless.

At a currently-high but ultimately-modest 100,000 people per square mile, we can house 20 trillion people just on land.
Bundle an Endure Elements effect in that trap, and they don't really even need the housing, or even clothing, anywhere inside the Arctic circles.
Build megapolii that run hundreds of stories high and we can get over a quadrillion.

Note that doesn't leave much room for anything else. Better get some permanent gates open to some garden planets.

So my baseline trap should do several things.
When you push the button it should feed you, and cast both Endure Elements and Cure Disease on you.
Cure disease is just insurance. Most of the time you won't need it, but it will be key to stopping epidemics in our new super-dense population.
Probably should give you some 24-hour temporary hitpoints as well, or a Persisted Lesser Vigor.

That'll extend lifespans to very near maximum for basically everyone.
Well maybe. Depends if Cure Disease fixes metabolic disfunctions like Type2 diabetes.

You could still die to massive damage, poison, lack of air, etc.

Absolutely. This is *my* plan.

I was just paring it down for someone who didn't want to use traps.

[Segev]

Go bigger. More food traps. I want them to rain from the sky like Liberator pistols in occupied France.
Make them all shaped like giant legos, and dump so many peasants can build houses out of the extras.
They should be effectively valueless.

At a currently-high but ultimately-modest 100,000 people per square mile, we can house 20 trillion people just on land.
Bundle an Endure Elements effect in that trap, and they don't really even need the housing, or even clothing, anywhere inside the Arctic circles.
Build megapolii that run hundreds of stories high and we can get over a quadrillion.

Note that doesn't leave much room for anything else. Better get some permanent gates open to some garden planets.

So my baseline trap should do several things.
When you push the button it should feed you, and cast both Endure Elements and Cure Disease on you.
Cure disease is just insurance. Most of the time you won't need it, but it will be key to stopping epidemics in our new super-dense population.
Probably should give you some 24-hour temporary hitpoints as well, or a Persisted Lesser Vigor.

That'll extend lifespans to very near maximum for basically everyone.
Well maybe. Depends if Cure Disease fixes metabolic disfunctions like Type2 diabetes.

You could still die to massive damage, poison, lack of air, etc.

And thus did Cloudy, With a Chance of Meatballs become a D&D plot.



As to your own violence...you still are only one man. Unless you’re sending out hundreds of millions of simulacra or similar minions to enforce your will.

[AnonymousPepper]

And thus did Cloudy, With a Chance of Meatballs become a D&D plot.



As to your own violence...you still are only one man. Unless you’re sending out hundreds of millions of simulacra or similar minions to enforce your will.

Point the first could probably be avoided by a properly tuned mythal keeping things in line. Epic magic is hax, and it wouldn't hard at all to get yourself there.

Point the second: I think you're greatly, greatly overestimating necessary numbers and even more greatly underestimating A. the intimidation value of an unkillable god-wizard and B. the absolute lack of a motive for the overwhelming majority of people to cause trouble for it.

[Quertus]

Point the second: I think you're greatly, greatly overestimating necessary numbers and even more greatly underestimating A. the intimidation value of an unkillable god-wizard and B. the absolute lack of a motive for the overwhelming majority of people to cause trouble for it.

You know, I'd almost want such nigh-divine power, just to test those theories.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I wonder how many castings of polymorph it would take to make pokemon a thing? Probibly gonna have to round up some smart folk and boost their mental stats to create a think tank to help me pull it off...

[Nifft]

Hmm... I wonder how many castings of polymorph it would take to make pokemon a thing? Probibly gonna have to round up some smart folk and boost their mental stats to create a think tank to help me pull it off...

Getting a viable breeding population of Pokemon is probably at least one Epic spell.

[unseenmage]

Getting a viable breeding population of Pokemon is probably at least one Epic spell.

Or just one casting of Gate...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use shapechanging magic and Assume Supernatural Ability (via psychic reformation, of course) to turn things into other things with Supernatural abilities, then start combining them with the fusion and astral seed powers. Then start using Ability Rip if necessary to remove things you don't want.

[Nifft]

Or just one casting of Gate...

Are you claiming that there's an official D&D / Pokemon crossover setting?

All I see on google are fan-made conversions. I'll be pleasantly surprise if there is something official. Point me to it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are you claiming that there's an official D&D / Pokemon crossover setting?

All I see on google are fan-made conversions. I'll be pleasantly surprise if there is something official. Point me to it?Infinite multiverse theory?

[Nifft]

Infinite multiverse theory?

That sounds like something from neither D&D nor PF.

[Eldonauran]

Getting a viable breeding population of Pokemon is probably at least one Epic spell.

I don't know. Owlbears turned out pretty good...

[unseenmage]

Are you claiming that there's an official D&D / Pokemon crossover setting?

All I see on google are fan-made conversions. I'll be pleasantly surprise if there is something official. Point me to it?
Nah. Just why turn the knob to eleven if you dont have to.

There are plenty of canonical locales that connect D&D-verses to other far flung worlds. Even ours.

If nothing else than either the Shadow Plane or Far Realm dontdothat should be able to get you there in short order.

EDIT: Made a thread for this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563935-Can-You-Show-Me-How-to-Get-to-Pokemon-Street)

[Eldan]

At $20,000-$100,000 a teleportation circle it's not trivial. But perhaps worth it. However I think shipping other goods would be a better use for it at least initially and command a better price for donation. Just like what I said if there is any good way to feed the world with magic then you could do just as well or better selling it. And when I said barring infinite loop cheese I also meant similar cheese such as thought bottles. Which really is another form of infinite or NI loop cheese via unlimited wealth and so on.

Not trivial to a single person, perhaps. But imagine walking up to Amazon and saying "Hey. For 100'000 dollars, I can make it so you'll be able to transport goods across the Pacific in seconds. Just name two places." That's pocket money, for an international corporation and you'd save them millions in shipping in no time.

Also, speaking of Simulacra, as I said, I probably wouldn't trust myself. So I'll just keep a few Solars, with all the attribute increase shennanigans on them as advisors. Or guardinals, maybe. But they'd have all their mental stats in the mid-thirties, knowledge skills in the 40s, magic almost as good as mine and they'd be literal incarnations of goodness. I don't need to know how to solve distribution problems if I have a solar who can roll Knowledge Engineering/History/Geography in the 50s reliably and see the future.

[Andor13]

Getting a viable breeding population of Pokemon is probably at least one Epic spell.

Sure, that seems like an excellent idea. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NightmareFuel/Pokemon) :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Point the first could probably be avoided by a properly tuned mythal keeping things in line. Epic magic is hax, and it wouldn't hard at all to get yourself there.I wasn't really going into the problems of the movie, just the notion of "food as weather." I found it an amusing parallel.


Point the second: I think you're greatly, greatly overestimating necessary numbers and even more greatly underestimating A. the intimidation value of an unkillable god-wizard and B. the absolute lack of a motive for the overwhelming majority of people to cause trouble for it.

I think you're grossly overestimating it. Fear of getting caught only goes so far. "He's just one man." You'd find yourself having to take down multiple warlords, both national and petty, and without the army of yous to go handle things in parallel, it would take you so long to get to all of them that too many would think, "He can't be everywhere, and he isn't really all-knowing. He'll never find me."

The venality of evil is not to be underestimated.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Only one man, sure, but that man has a vast army of supernatural minions if he wants them, all of which can have access to divination magic. Doesn't matter if the nasty people believe it or not, since it's what the wizard believes that's important. It'll become pretty clear PDQ that the wizard can, indeed, be in many places at once.

Or did you forget we're talking about a wizard 20, here?

[Segev]

Only one man, sure, but that man has a vast army of supernatural minions if he wants them, all of which can have access to divination magic. Doesn't matter if the nasty people believe it or not, since it's what the wizard believes that's important. It'll become pretty clear PDQ that the wizard can, indeed, be in many places at once.

Or did you forget we're talking about a wizard 20, here?

Again, you need that army. Even level 20 wizards can't actually be in enough places simultaneously to cover every instance that he'd need to. Not without personally dismantling the regimes of over a hundred nations, and essentially taking them over by installing puppets.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Again, you need that army. Even level 20 wizards can't actually be in enough places simultaneously to cover every instance that he'd need to. Not without personally dismantling the regimes of over a hundred nations, and essentially taking them over by installing puppets.You've got necromancy, golem crafting, summoning, calling, cloning, mind control, illusions, aleaxes, ice assassins, Leadership...

...and a few dozen other ways of getting help.

How much more minionmancy do you need?

[Segev]

You've got necromancy, golem crafting, summoning, calling, cloning, mind control, illusions, aleaxes, ice assassins, Leadership...

...and a few dozen other ways of getting help.

How much more minionmancy do you need?

I didn't say you couldn't get it. I said you'd need to resort to it. Such resort was not indicated in the original proposition. The proposition I was addressing at least appeared to suggest personal intervention in each contravention of the food rules as laid out by the mighty wizard.

I said he'd need an army, either of simulacra or greater numbers of other sorts, and may have to effectively conquer a number of nations.

I didn't say he couldn't do so. Just that he'd probably have to if he wanted to solve the problems he was discussing.

[Kalkra]

People adapt to situations really well. Most likely, after the shock wore off, people would go back to being how they were before, more or less. Unless you want to claim that you can use divination spells and your jacked-up intelligence to predict and prevent every bad thing that will ever happen, people will do bad things. Particularly because there are a lot of moral grey areas, and I'm assuming that you don't want people running to you every time something where there are two valid sides comes up, and it would be really hard to communicate to everybody what you consider good and bad to be, especially given the fact that you probably don't even know yourself, at least not in all respects.

On the plus side, I don't think you're that likely to turn super corrupt, given that all your needs are met. Greed is the motivator for a lot of the bad things people do, and you shouldn't really have an issue with that. On the other hand, maybe if you have all of your needs met, you'll develop new ones... Would an atonement help with that?

Also, even if you mindrape everybody, and all their kids etc., something like head trauma and amnesia could still cause problems. Unless that's what your horde of teleporting telepathic minions are for...

[Segev]

On the plus side, I don't think you're that likely to turn super corrupt, given that all your needs are met. Greed is the motivator for a lot of the bad things people do, and you shouldn't really have an issue with that.

Don't under-estimate the lure of power-over-others. Sure, you have everything you materially need or want, but that guy there is disrespecting you. Best show him. And those jerks are arguing with you on the internet. Can't they tell that you're the smartest man alive? Like, seriously? And that guy is showing bigotry. You hate bigots. Best teach them they can't do that! What does $famousCelebrity mean he doesn't want to be associated with you, and won't perform at your party? That's just ridiculous; everybody loves you. You can't possibly be controversial amongst right-minded folks! And then you get hounded out of a restaurant by barely-peaceful "protestors" who chant how big of a monster you are...

[Eldonauran]

Don't under-estimate the lure of power-over-others. Sure, you have everything you materially need or want, but that guy there is disrespecting you. Best show him. And those jerks are arguing with you on the internet. Can't they tell that you're the smartest man alive? Like, seriously? And that guy is showing bigotry. You hate bigots. Best teach them they can't do that! What does $famousCelebrity mean he doesn't want to be associated with you, and won't perform at your party? That's just ridiculous; everybody loves you. You can't possibly be controversial amongst right-minded folks! And then you get hounded out of a restaurant by barely-peaceful "protestors" who chant how big of a monster you are...
.....And here we come across a little acknowledged truth of human nature. :smallfrown:

[unseenmage]

I didn't say you couldn't get it. I said you'd need to resort to it. Such resort was not indicated in the original proposition. The proposition I was addressing at least appeared to suggest personal intervention in each contravention of the food rules as laid out by the mighty wizard.

I said he'd need an army, either of simulacra or greater numbers of other sorts, and may have to effectively conquer a number of nations.

I didn't say he couldn't do so. Just that he'd probably have to if he wanted to solve the problems he was discussing.
Thanks to immortality and time travel you really could intervene in every situation though.

[Kalkra]

I suppose it really depends on what you're doing with your day. I mean, what do you do for fun? There aren't that many spells in the PHB which are meant for wizard couch-potatoes, but I'm sure you could repurpose some, or develop some, and if you are developing spells, or anything else focus-intensive and time-consuming, you could be living in your mom's basement and completely forget about the outside world. Especially if that's where you made your demiplane. I can definitely understand the appeal of having people worship you (http://dilbert.com/strip/1993-03-31) though.

[Quertus]

That sounds like something from neither D&D nor PF.

I thought a Playgrounder told me that this was a PF thing. That it canonically connected to everywhere.


.....And here we come across a little acknowledged truth of human nature. :smallfrown:

Yes, human nature is definitely the problem. Is there finally a problem that even repeated applications of Polymorph Any Object and Mindrape cannot solve?

[Segev]

Thanks to immortality and time travel you really could intervene in every situation though.

I suppose it's theoretically possible at that point, yes. But holy cow, do you really want to spend your time like that? Consider that you'll have to live thousands of years, minimum, per year (if not per day) just to keep up with it all. Even if you clean up 90% of it in the first year (and it would take that long in real time for the message to get through enough skulls), you've spent many, many, many lifetimes doing nothing but dedicating yourself to one month at a time, getting it slightly better, slightly righter.

Maybe you could do it, but I'll say this for you: you're either a hero or a horrific villain for that level of dedication to saving/controlling so many people's lives.

[AnonymousPepper]

I thought a Playgrounder told me that this was a PF thing. That it canonically connected to everywhere.



Yes, human nature is definitely the problem. Is there finally a problem that even repeated applications of Polymorph Any Object and Mindrape cannot solve?

Use Mindrape to fix human nature. Nothing can possibly go wrong with this.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R. INTENSIFIES]

[unseenmage]

I suppose it's theoretically possible at that point, yes. But holy cow, do you really want to spend your time like that? Consider that you'll have to live thousands of years, minimum, per year (if not per day) just to keep up with it all. Even if you clean up 90% of it in the first year (and it would take that long in real time for the message to get through enough skulls), you've spent many, many, many lifetimes doing nothing but dedicating yourself to one month at a time, getting it slightly better, slightly righter.

Maybe you could do it, but I'll say this for you: you're either a hero or a horrific villain for that level of dedication to saving/controlling so many people's lives.

I mean, as a mere mortal I already play copious amounts of savescum style videogaming where pretty much the above plays out.

Doubt my completionist streak would vanish if I were immortal.

[Segev]

I mean, as a mere mortal I already play copious amounts of savescum style videogaming where pretty much the above plays out.

Doubt my completionist streak would vanish if I were immortal.

This goes beyond save-scumming. Remember, you're not just going to be jumping from crisis point to crisis point. Each niggling crime against your New World Order is going to have to be thoroughly researched with Divination magic as well as at least a little bit of interviewing to make sure you get the full picture. By the third real-world week of this, if you weren't practically perfect in getting only the guilty, you'd have villains engineering situations so that when you showed up to deliver justice, you'd wind up being the villains' enforcer, because they'd find ways to make your biases and assumptions and blind spots paint a picture that inverts who's stealing from whom.

They may not even want the stuff they're stealing, at that point. Just to use you to bully others into complying with their will. Want to punish a restaurant for not giving you the special treatment you demanded? Frame them for violating the wizard's strictures, and make it clear to them that you'll keep doing that if they don't kowtow.

Again, you can get around this, but you have to be nearly perfect at your intel gathering and synthesis of information.

There's a reason I think you're looking at something like 1000:1 time dilation for how much time you spend doing this versus how much time advances in the real world the way you want it to.

[Kalkra]

If you don't wanna do it yourself, that's what clones and constructs with magic items are for.

[Vizzerdrix]

stuff

And this is why the ONLY solution is to turn everyone into ferrets.

[Segev]

If you don't wanna do it yourself, that's what clones and constructs with magic items are for.As I said: you'll need/want an army.


And this is why the ONLY solution is to turn everyone into ferrets.Impractical. There's no way you need that many familiars.

[Quertus]

This goes beyond save-scumming. Remember, you're not just going to be jumping from crisis point to crisis point. Each niggling crime against your New World Order is going to have to be thoroughly researched with Divination magic as well as at least a little bit of interviewing to make sure you get the full picture. By the third real-world week of this, if you weren't practically perfect in getting only the guilty, you'd have villains engineering situations so that when you showed up to deliver justice, you'd wind up being the villains' enforcer, because they'd find ways to make your biases and assumptions and blind spots paint a picture that inverts who's stealing from whom.

They may not even want the stuff they're stealing, at that point. Just to use you to bully others into complying with their will. Want to punish a restaurant for not giving you the special treatment you demanded? Frame them for violating the wizard's strictures, and make it clear to them that you'll keep doing that if they don't kowtow.

Again, you can get around this, but you have to be nearly perfect at your intel gathering and synthesis of information.

There's a reason I think you're looking at something like 1000:1 time dilation for how much time you spend doing this versus how much time advances in the real world the way you want it to.

So, if I built my Billion-Eyed-One, connected into the thoughts and memories and souls of everyone, to get perfect information, and time traveled to fix the world, through copious amounts of murder, Mindrape, or whatever, what could possibly go wrong?


And this is why the ONLY solution is to turn everyone into ferrets.

Hmmm... New dystopia: PaO every human being into a rock. Call them "soul stones". Use then to power a new race of beings that lack human failings.

[Andor13]

You know, you could fix a lot of human behavior just by holding a press conference where you announced: "There really are a Heaven and Hell. I summoned a Solar and a Pitlord to tell you all about them. Now I'll turn the mic over to Alastor the Golden, and Baxandor the Disemboweler."

[One Step Two]

I've given this some thought, so here's what I would do: After securing functional immortality/invulnerability, which is more or less a given by the standards of this thread and I undertake the following:

Step One: As a wizard access to Spell research means I can create new spells as desired, so with enough time and effort, one that let's me create a state-save of reality, or other spell that lets me create effects similar to the Psionic Save-Game trick to let me revert things to normal once I begin...

Step Two: Begin to undertake changes to reality using Time travel for fun and profit.

With the safety net of the state-save in place, I can attempt different changes to try and see how reality can change itself, a contingency attached to the save to prevent myself getting wiped out by paradox is a must of course. But things like "What if we gave Lucasfilms Enough budget and time to actually have Wookies instead of Ewoks in the Return of the Jedi?" Would be amazing to witness, as well as getting season 2(or more) of Firefly, and an Avatar: The Last Airbender Movie that was good!

At some point I would get entirely bored of indulging my pop culture wants and desires, and that's when I will take my hand to sociopolitical concerns. With my state-save spell and divination I can try enacting whole cloth destructive changes just to see if I can improved the world without needing my own hand on the reins the entire time. Play the stock market to make Gasoline so hideously expensive to force people to carpool and use public transportation to help improve the environment for example. And if it sparks off a massive global conflict? Re-load the state-save and try something else.

Heck, with the same power, go back and remove the Dark from the Dark Ages just to see how the context of reality can change. All the problems you're trying to fix by hand with mass memory-edits and simulacra might be resolved in a more enlightened age? Again, it might need a better time-travel spell so you don't accidentally remove yourself from existence that way, but you're a wizard, you can do that.

Remember One Step Two's advice for crossing the Moral Event Horizon: Make sure you save early and save often.

[Zanos]

If the first couple pages are an accurate sample, my first act wouls be to do something about the terrible, terrible tyrants in this thread. Which I, of course, condemn.

And so my blood soaked reign begins!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the first couple pages are an accurate sample, my first act wouls be to do something about the terrible, terrible tyrants in this thread. Which I, of course, condemn.

And so my blood soaked reign begins!Meh. It's like pitting two Terminators against each other, but they can only attack using Nerf bats.

[Segev]

You know, you could fix a lot of human behavior just by holding a press conference where you announced: "There really are a Heaven and Hell. I summoned a Solar and a Pitlord to tell you all about them. Now I'll turn the mic over to Alastor the Golden, and Baxandor the Disemboweler."

I actually doubt that would be as effective as you think. People have ample evidence, for instance, of the hazards of alcoholism and drug abuse, and yet there are still many who indulge. The lure of immediate gratification, or even temporal gratification in mortal life, combined with a hint of "it won't happen to me"ism and "I'll just stop/repent/give it up before it harms me" rationalizations will likely mean you get only a marginal effect on people's behavior by your demonstration.

And that's before we take into account people just plain not believing you and your two representatives.

[Eldonauran]

I actually doubt that would be as effective as you think. People have ample evidence, for instance, of the hazards of alcoholism and drug abuse, and yet there are still many who indulge. The lure of immediate gratification, or even temporal gratification in mortal life, combined with a hint of "it won't happen to me"ism and "I'll just stop/repent/give it up before it harms me" rationalizations will likely mean you get only a marginal effect on people's behavior by your demonstration.

And that's before we take into account people just plain not believing you and your two representatives.Wow. I was going to post something very similar earlier but did not bother. You ARE fairly cognizant of the human condition. Though, I think you might be understating the rebelliousness at the core of most people. I am pretty sure that even faced with such evidence, humans would simply reject the truth for their own version of it, and damn the person/entity that tried to tell them differently. We humans are a strange bunch...

[One Step Two]

The human condition is awesomely messed up, but thanks to the "World-saver™" spell, you too can attempt different diverse means to alter the fate of mankind, and if it doesn't work, just try again!

Examples include picking your favourite Sci-Fi Author and seeing if his visions of the future come to pass with the same impetus to change! Such as Researching a spell like Laurin's portals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html), to create instantaneous worm-holes, attach it to stable locations/Magic devices, and let the entire galaxy be attached to a trans-dimensional Railway system. Those that want to explore the stars? Done! Bring a Vacuum Suit, and remember the schedules for your return! Do you have some unique idea of how life should work, that despite it being a modern society that you adhere to a rule set devised before flushing toilets were common? There's a small earth-like planet for you and your followers to head to!

If the whole thing turns into some sort of bizarre galaxy-spanning conspiracy with the Immotiles, activate the World-Saver™ and try again!

[Xar Zarath]

You know, you could fix a lot of human behavior just by holding a press conference where you announced: "There really are a Heaven and Hell. I summoned a Solar and a Pitlord to tell you all about them. Now I'll turn the mic over to Alastor the Golden, and Baxandor the Disemboweler."

Hmm or this could potentially spark off some massive religious war as peoples expectations and own fantasy of what Heaven and Hell would be are proven wrong...you could be sparking off a new Crusade...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm or this could potentially spark off some massive religious war as peoples expectations and own fantasy of what Heaven and Hell would be are proven wrong...you could be sparking off a new Crusade...What else is new?

[Eldan]

*shrug*

Well, you can stop religious wars. That makes things rather simple.

Though honestly,l if all the planes exist, you're not the only spellcaster in the universe anymore, which makes this thread very different.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

*shrug*

Well, you can stop religious wars. That makes things rather simple.

Though honestly,l if all the planes exist, you're not the only spellcaster in the universe anymore, which makes this thread very different.You may very well be the only caster with access to this Prime Material Plane, at least until you summon/call other casters in.

[Segev]

You may very well be the only caster with access to this Prime Material Plane, at least until you summon/call other casters in.

Or at least this particular, strangely low-magic crystal sphere.

[Andor13]

Hmm or this could potentially spark off some massive religious war as peoples expectations and own fantasy of what Heaven and Hell would be are proven wrong...you could be sparking off a new Crusade...

Oh, if you actually did it the way I suggested, there is no way it wouldn't be a train wreck. But that's what the +11 Int/Wis and preparatory divinations are for.

[Nifft]

Oh, if you actually did it the way I suggested, there is no way it wouldn't be a train wreck. But that's what the +11 Int/Wis and preparatory divinations are for.

Barakiel, the Terrible Bright Storm-Splitting Spear of Heaven, commander of seven angelic legions: "Mortal, why have you bound me in this circle?"

Wizard: "I want to book you as a guest on The Daily Show."

[Andor13]

Barakiel, the Terrible Bright Storm-Splitting Spear of Heaven, commander of seven angelic legions: "Mortal, why have you bound me in this circle?"

Wizard: "I want to book you as a guest on The Daily Show."

Barakiel: "... With John Stewart or the new guy?"

[Kalkra]

Talking about the Heaven and Hell that exist in a game which isn't even completely internally consist would raise a LOT of theological problems. I mean, what do you do when confronted with proof of something illogical? Unless being a wizard in real life means that Plane Shift takes you to the real afterlife. What would happen if there wasn't one? Or do you meet the DM or reality? How does DM consent work anyway? If you really were a wizard, how would reality rule on RAW vs. RAI? Once you're getting truly munchkinly, is 3rd party content allowed? How about unlicensed 3rd part content? How about the Spells that Fix Everything Compendium that I just wrote? Can you homebrew?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Talking about the Heaven and Hell that exist in a game which isn't even completely internally consist would raise a LOT of theological problems. I mean, what do you do when confronted with proof of something illogical? Unless being a wizard in real life means that Plane Shift takes you to the real afterlife. What would happen if there wasn't one? Or do you meet the DM or reality? How does DM consent work anyway? If you really were a wizard, how would reality rule on RAW vs. RAI? Once you're getting truly munchkinly, is 3rd party content allowed? How about unlicensed 3rd part content? How about the Spells that Fix Everything Compendium that I just wrote? Can you homebrew?I'd say that you'd be dealing with The Great Wheel, for simplicity's sake, there is no DM (as such), and you could use any 1st and 2nd party supplements, as well as any already-published 3rd party supplements out there. And you could always perform spell research, so...

Though I'm not the OP, so this is just what I'd want.

[Eldonauran]

Talking about the Heaven and Hell that exist in a game which isn't even completely internally consist would raise a LOT of theological problems. I mean, what do you do when confronted with proof of something illogical?Two things could happen. You refuse to accept what has been shown to you. Or two, your current way of thinking is utterly shattered until you are able to piece together how to make sense of this 'illogical proof'.


Unless being a wizard in real life means that Plane Shift takes you to the real afterlife. What would happen if there wasn't one? Or do you meet the DM or reality? How does DM consent work anyway?There is no such thing as DM/GM consent in that kind of reality. If you met the supreme overlord of the universe, their will is reality and you are merely a piece of it. Arguing about it would be entirely pointless.


If you really were a wizard, how would reality rule on RAW vs. RAI?Considering that things tend to obey certain laws (in so far as how we currently understand the universe), you might find out that your new magic powers follow a higher law that can change some of the lesser ones (wizards do study magic like our scientists, as it obeys certain rules). Twisting things past a certain point is likely to bring consequences from those higher laws, and maybe the universe itself.


Once you're getting truly munchkinly, is 3rd party content allowed? How about unlicensed 3rd part content? How about the Spells that Fix Everything Compendium that I just wrote? Can you homebrew?I'm not going to bother hypothesizing on that. We have enough on our plate with just 1st party material.

[Calthropstu]

The rules of reality would exist. So basically all content compatable with reality would work.

The real problem? Finding spells for your book. You might know spells exist, but figuring out how to cast them would basically be next to impossible.

Take magic missle for example. You might *know* magic missle exists. You know, from the rulebook, that it requires verbal and somatic components. But what are they?

My guess? You start as a 20th lvl wizard with no spells at all. You'd need to research, basically through trial and error, how to cast each and every individual spell. Since there's no one to teach you, every single spell will take painstaking effort.

As each spell is figured out, you basically write it into your spellbook... And most spells will simply never be reached. When you try to "cheese the system," you will likely find it just doesn't work. Either the spell will fail or it will have unintended results.

[Segev]

The rules of reality would exist. So basically all content compatable with reality would work.

The real problem? Finding spells for your book. You might know spells exist, but figuring out how to cast them would basically be next to impossible.

Take magic missle for example. You might *know* magic missle exists. You know, from the rulebook, that it requires verbal and somatic components. But what are they?

My guess? You start as a 20th lvl wizard with no spells at all. You'd need to research, basically through trial and error, how to cast each and every individual spell. Since there's no one to teach you, every single spell will take painstaking effort.

As each spell is figured out, you basically write it into your spellbook... And most spells will simply never be reached. When you try to "cheese the system," you will likely find it just doesn't work. Either the spell will fail or it will have unintended results.

This is why I specified, in my own first post in this thread, that I would assume I started with wealth-by-level appropriate to a level 20 wizard, too. Since generally speaking, the WBL is part of being a certain level, at least in theoretical discussions.

Though at absolute minimum, a 20th level wizard should have 4 spells of each level 2-8 in his spellbook, and 6 of up to 9th, plus however many his Int mod makes his total number of 1st level spells be. Pick those carefully enough and you can use various shenanigans to orchestrate the time and wealth needed to research all the others in little to no real-world time passed.

[Nifft]

The real problem? Finding spells for your book. You might know spells exist, but figuring out how to cast them would basically be next to impossible.

You get 41+Int bonus spells for free thanks to leveling up as a Wizard 20 -- or a lot more, with the right feats.

What you do is you use those spells to bootstrap more. For example: use the planar binding line to bind spellcasting Outsiders & Elementals and bargain with them for more spells. Another example: use plane shift to visit somewhere with a WBL-Mart.

[Calthropstu]

You get 41+Int bonus spells for free thanks to leveling up as a Wizard 20 -- or a lot more, with the right feats.

What you do is you use those spells to bootstrap more. For example: use the planar binding line to bind spellcasting Outsiders & Elementals and bargain with them for more spells. Another example: use plane shift to visit somewhere with a WBL-Mart.

Raw, certainly. Reality? We're presuming RAW doesn't go flat out the window. After all, RAW you must adventure for XP to gain those levels. Also, my best guess puts the average int scores here at a solid 12, maybe 14. Putting 9th level spells out of reach for many. And I also bet feats need to be trained. Know anyone with craft magic item feat? Sure, you have a bunch of feat slots... but you have to learn them.

Unless, when you gain this power, a spellbook suddenly pops into existence with the 41 spells+ as well as details on how to acquire the feats you desire.

Reality doesn't follow in game rules. Even if, somehow, you were able to inject the magic required into someone to enable 20th lvl casting, the gm would be the universe itself.

This means your polymorphs would be restricted to ACTUAL creatures meaning no infinite wish super cheese. And you would have to actually WORK for your gains. Your summons would likely just pull creatures from other planets rather than other planes. Or maybe it would just shape creatures from your own conciousness as pseudoreality conjurations with reality warped to your will.

However it worked though, I can guarantee you it would not be as supposed here. And I also guarantee it'd be a colossal pain in the ass. Because everything in life is a colossal pain in the ass.

[unseenmage]

The rules of reality would exist. So basically all content compatable with reality would work.

The real problem? Finding spells for your book. You might know spells exist, but figuring out how to cast them would basically be next to impossible.

Take magic missle for example. You might *know* magic missle exists. You know, from the rulebook, that it requires verbal and somatic components. But what are they?

My guess? You start as a 20th lvl wizard with no spells at all. You'd need to research, basically through trial and error, how to cast each and every individual spell. Since there's no one to teach you, every single spell will take painstaking effort.

As each spell is figured out, you basically write it into your spellbook... And most spells will simply never be reached. When you try to "cheese the system," you will likely find it just doesn't work. Either the spell will fail or it will have unintended results.
So you're saying you disagree with the stated premise of the OP by default.
Then why are you here?

Magic isn't reality and you can't practically BE a wiz 20 without spells.
Saying the wiz 20 doesnt get spells and that your idea of reality thwarts the fun of others posting in the thread seems kinda... bad... to me.


Just like any game discussion this one gains little from ignoring the rules in favor of one person's interpretation.

Besides, isn't there a quote somewhere about how basic D&D already says that physics continues functioning with the game rules applying and overriding as neccessary?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Raw, certainly. Reality? We're presuming RAW doesn't go flat out the window. After all, RAW you must adventure for XP to gain those levels. Also, my best guess puts the average int scores here at a solid 12, maybe 14. Putting 9th level spells out of reach for many. And I also bet feats need to be trained. Know anyone with craft magic item feat? Sure, you have a bunch of feat slots... but you have to learn them.

Unless, when you gain this power, a spellbook suddenly pops into existence with the 41 spells+ as well as details on how to acquire the feats you desire.

Reality doesn't follow in game rules. Even if, somehow, you were able to inject the magic required into someone to enable 20th lvl casting, the gm would be the universe itself.

This means your polymorphs would be restricted to ACTUAL creatures meaning no infinite wish super cheese. And you would have to actually WORK for your gains. Your summons would likely just pull creatures from other planets rather than other planes. Or maybe it would just shape creatures from your own conciousness as pseudoreality conjurations with reality warped to your will.

However it worked though, I can guarantee you it would not be as supposed here. And I also guarantee it'd be a colossal pain in the ass. Because everything in life is a colossal pain in the ass.You don't gain your own class features? Then you're not a wizard and thus have no place in this discussion.

The idea is that you figure this stuff out as you go along. You come up with these things through your own study, which does include training, but even wizards tossed into a huge dungeon with no available training still get spells and feats, as per RAW, because it's stuff they came up with on their own.

[Andor13]

There is no such thing as DM/GM consent in that kind of reality. If you met the supreme overlord of the universe, their will is reality and you are merely a piece of it. Arguing about it would be entirely pointless.

You're assuming that either the DM is external to the scenario and that we (or rather the 20th level Wizard version of us) are an NPC, or that a DM who is internal to the scenario (in this case a montheistic Creator Deity) exists, but that free will does not.

.....

WBL seems pretty meaningless to me, personally, given the ability to gain almost infinite wealth in a few days with some easy spell casting, but the scenario isn't even meaningful if you assume no spellbook. It's functionally the same as asking "What if you were suddenly given the full might of a 20th level commoner with at-will read magic?"

[Calthropstu]

So you're saying you disagree with the stated premise of the OP by default.
Then why are you here?

Magic isn't reality and you can't practically BE a wiz 20 without spells.
Saying the wiz 20 doesnt get spells and that your idea of reality thwarts the fun of others posting in the thread seems kinda... bad... to me.


Just like any game discussion this one gains little from ignoring the rules in favor of one person's interpretation.

Besides, isn't there a quote somewhere about how basic D&D already says that physics continues functioning with the game rules applying and overriding as neccessary?

No, I am saying they would have to RESEARCH spells. Figure them out through trial and error... experimentation. You would be pioneering a new field of study. You would have the capacity of a 20th lvl wizard, but FINDING the spells would be a serious chore and a lot of work.

Because that is how our universe works.

Edit: and honestly, I'd prefer it anyways. The act of discovery and exhileration of developing new ways to tell the laws of physics to shut up would be awesome.

Anything worth doing takes a lot of work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, I am saying they would have to RESEARCH spells. Figure them out through trial and error... experimentation. You would be pioneering a new field of study. You would have the capacity of a 20th lvl wizard, but FINDING the spells would be a serious chore and a lot of work.

Because that is how our universe works.And that's exactly what the wizard is assumed to have been doing all along. Thus, you have all of your feats and spells, just like normal.

I don't see the point of this part of the discussion. It's not bringing anything interesting to the table.

[Eldonauran]

You're assuming that either the DM is external to the scenario and that we (or rather the 20th level Wizard version of us) are an NPC, or that a DM who is internal to the scenario (in this case a montheistic Creator Deity) exists, but that free will does not.I am not assuming free will is non-existent, merely that in the end, how much you object or reason, the will of the entity (internal or external) would be supreme. Just because something can ignore or override your free will does not mean it doesn't exist.

[Calthropstu]

And that's exactly what the wizard is assumed to have been doing all along. Thus, you have all of your feats and spells, just like normal.

I don't see the point of this part of the discussion. It's not bringing anything interesting to the table.

Actually, people seem to be presuming "poof, you're a 20th lvl wizard with feats and spells and no work." Instant gratification so to speak. Like a "you are the chosen one."

Just doesn't sit right with me because the universe doesn't work like that. I'd imagine it as "you suddenly find you can access some source of power. This power will allow you to manipulate reality in ways similar to D&D spells. Now you have to figure out how it works."

You'd basically feel power build up with certain hand movements and words... and eventually figure out how to build that power into a spell using sound, words and in some cases components.

It would mostly be trial and error, similar to inventing a light bulb.

[unseenmage]

No, I am saying they would have to RESEARCH spells. Figure them out through trial and error... experimentation. You would be pioneering a new field of study. You would have the capacity of a 20th lvl wizard, but FINDING the spells would be a serious chore and a lot of work.

Because that is how our universe works.

Edit: and honestly, I'd prefer it anyways. The act of discovery and exhileration of developing new ways to tell the laws of physics to shut up would be awesome.

Anything worth doing takes a lot of work.

And I'm saying that without their starting spells (and really their WBL and even the D&D cosmology) that they aren't even a Wiz, let alone a Wiz 20.

That the rules of our reality have to bow out of this one to even begin to entertain the premise of the OP is a given.
At least to me.

Shoehorning in one's own idea of an our reality version of a Wiz 20 just doesnt seem to be in the spirit of the thing.

I mean if a GM said, 'Hey guys let's all play a game next week where you walk through a gate and then you're in our world for a time.' Then described to us all how our feats, spells, skills, etc dont work because ours is not a magical gameworld that'd be crummy.

Similarly, if the thread's about a Wiz 20 in our world taking its superpowers away because you dont think superpowers work the way the game says seems crummy to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually, people seem to be presuming "poof, you're a 20th lvl wizard with feats and spells and no work." Instant gratification so to speak. Like a "you are the chosen one."

Just doesn't sit right with me because the universe doesn't work like that. I'd imagine it as "you suddenly find you can access some source of power. This power will allow you to manipulate reality in ways similar to D&D spells. Now you have to figure out how it works."

You'd basically feel power build up with certain hand movements and words... and eventually figure out how to build that power into a spell using sound, words and in some cases components.

It would mostly be trial and error, similar to inventing a light bulb.The thread is not about being a "20th level commoner with the possibility of magic, maybe," which is what you're presupposing. If you're a wizard, at the very least you gain ability scores, feats, skills, hit points, saving throws, spell slots, and spells known, at minimum; otherwise you're not a wizard. You're ignoring the thread subject and trying to institute your own.

You're off-topic, and most everyone here doesn't want to talk about that.

[Calthropstu]

And I'm saying that without their starting spells (and really their WBL and even the D&D cosmology) that they aren't even a Wiz, let alone a Wiz 20.

That the rules of our reality have to bow out of this one to even begin to entertain the premise of the OP is a given.
At least to me.

Shoehorning in one's own idea of an our reality version of a Wiz 20 just doesnt seem to be in the spirit of the thing.

I mean if a GM said, 'Hey guys let's all play a game next week where you walk through a gate and then you're in our world for a time.' Then described to us all how our feats, spells, skills, etc dont work because ours is not a magical gameworld that'd be crummy.

Similarly, if the thread's about a Wiz 20 in our world taking its superpowers away because you dont think superpowers work the way the game says seems crummy to me.

Not saying take them away, just that getting "specific builds" would be HIGHLY difficult, even impossible. Being powerful? Sure. Becoming an unkillable god wizard able to laugh at a nuclear blast? Unlikely.

I am also saying shapechange and many other OP spells would likely work differently than raw, if not simply be unable to function.

I seriously doubt the creatures in D&D actually exist. Summoning or becoming them to gain their powers likely just wouldn't work, or would have completely different effects. The hight of TO will almost assuredly be unatainable. Even PO would probably be difficult.

That said, there are likely also spells that would work BETTER than advertised. Timestop for example would likely be attainable, and the caveat of "cannot harm creatures" would almost assuredly be gone. So there is that. And telekinesis would probably be a lot stronger than the rulebook...

A lot of spell caps are for "balance" purposes... the real universe doesn't give a rats ass about balance. So if you can figure out timestop... you have your penultimate power.

But figuring it out would be insanely difficult.

[Calthropstu]

The thread is not about being a "20th level commoner with the possibility of magic, maybe," which is what you're presupposing. If you're a wizard, at the very least you gain ability scores, feats, skills, hit points, saving throws, spell slots, and spells known, at minimum; otherwise you're not a wizard. You're ignoring the thread subject and trying to institute your own.

You're off-topic, and most everyone here doesn't want to talk about that.

We're talking about what you would do if you gained the power of a 20th lvl wizard. Expanding on it to figure out what exactly those powers would be translated into our reality is entirely a legitimate ground here. Given that it is reality we are talking about, thinking about what would work and how is an entirely legitimate focus of conversation for such a thread.

Or are you saying the focus should be on RAW working in reality even when we all know it wouldn't?

[One Step Two]

Hm, the conjecture of, "Does any given spell work in our reality the same was it does as presented in the table top game." Is interesting, and many spells certainly would work as they are written, some would not. For example, does Teleportation spells account for the rotation of the earth? And other cross-roads that magic and physics might run into.

But all of that is rendered moot due to the existence of the Spell research rules, because with a decent enough spellcraft check, you can make a spell that works in the same in your current reality, and it wouldn't affect the level very much. A Fireball is a Fireball regardless of the slight variances of causing spontaneous conflagrations in a controlled sphere for your current dimension/plane.

Of course, if you want to take it to the next step and question the result of "Do you even have skill points?" that would certainly go beyond the scope of this thread.

However, being 20th level also includes skill points, you could take 23 ranks of Knowledge(Physics) and/or Profession(Astrophyscist), and finally crack those pesky equations necessary to get humanity off of our tiny rock, or Profession (Stockbroker), and become rich the mundane way. But we still got magic guys! C'mon!

[Calthropstu]

Hm, the conjecture of, "Does any given spell work in our reality the same was it does as presented in the table top game." Is interesting, and many spells certainly would work as they are written, some would not. For example, does Teleportation spells account for the rotation of the earth? And other cross-roads that magic and physics might run into.

But all of that is rendered moot due to the existence of the Spell research rules, because with a decent enough spellcraft check, you can make a spell that works in the same in your current reality, and it wouldn't affect the level very much. A Fireball is a Fireball regardless of the slight variances of causing spontaneous conflagrations in a controlled sphere for your current dimension/plane.

Of course, if you want to take it to the next step and question the result of "Do you even have skill points?" that would certainly go beyond the scope of this thread.

However, being 20th level also includes skill points, you could take 23 ranks of Knowledge(Physics) and/or Profession(Astrophyscist), and finally crack those pesky equations necessary to get humanity off of our tiny rock, or Profession (Stockbroker), and become rich the mundane way. But we still got magic guys! C'mon!

Agreed. And, as I said, just because each individual spell would require that research, doesn't make it not worth doing. I am saying it'd be HARD. And most would likely give up on most of the harder spells... or even fail outright due to the high dc it would require to pioneer each individual spell.

People are quoting wealth by level, but aren't taking into account that each individual spell would require fully original research... and researching new spells costs money... a lot of it. Those 41+ spells? Your wealth by level doesn't even begin to cover the research costs alone... because failure is a thing. You'd likely need multiple attempts for each spell. Dead end research is a very definite thing.

[One Step Two]

You'd likely need multiple attempts for each spell. Dead end research is a very definite thing.

I think this is where we diverge in opinion somewhat. The PHB is clear that you are allowed 2 spells + Int modifier spells each time you level, this is a core part of being a wizard. Even if your spells fizzle, it's not hard to acquire them once more due to to the fact that you're 20th level, with 23 ranks in Spellcraft. The DC for researching even a 9th level spell is 19 you do not need to even take 10 to make that check. The only variable here that becomes a factor is time, 1 week per spell level, and cost at 1000gp per week.
Even under the supposition that none of the spells in your spellbook work they way they are supposed to, and you need to research new ones, some low-to-mid level divination spells can yield adequate funds for future research. Once you have enough money to research a spell of "Hastend spell research" allowing you to take days or hours to complete it, then you're back to it being a non-factor.

It boils down to essentially you're a wizard without a spellbook, and rebuilding it is not trivial, but in the scope of what this thread posits, it's a small hurdle at best.

[Xar Zarath]

Barakiel: "... With John Stewart or the new guy?"

Hmm, how do you think people would handle the more evil aspects of that with a devil or demon into the mix?

[unseenmage]

....

Or are you saying the focus should be on RAW working in reality even when we all know it wouldn't?
Again, there's a section of the DMG dedicated to exactly this.
Without RAW all we have is wild speculation. And I hat doesnt a game make.

[Nifft]

Hmm, how do you think people would handle the more evil aspects of that with a devil or demon into the mix?

Send the fiends to Fox News rather than Comedy Central.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

We're talking about what you would do if you gained the power of a 20th lvl wizard. Expanding on it to figure out what exactly those powers would be translated into our reality is entirely a legitimate ground here. Given that it is reality we are talking about, thinking about what would work and how is an entirely legitimate focus of conversation for such a thread.

Or are you saying the focus should be on RAW working in reality even when we all know it wouldn't?We all know magic wouldn't work in reality, so in order for the original post to even work, we'd have to change the way reality functions anyway.

[Nifft]

We all know magic wouldn't work in reality, so in order for the original post to even work, we'd have to change the way reality functions anyway. Well, we know that magic hasn't worked yet.

It's possible that magic doesn't work in reality only because everyone on Earth has been assigned a non-magical base class like Expert, and we lack access to magical devices so even UMD ranks "don't work" because there's no magic devices beyond smartphones.

The first Wizard 20 might be 100% compatible with reality's secret rules.

[Calthropstu]

Well, we know that magic hasn't worked yet.

It's possible that magic doesn't work in reality only because everyone on Earth has been assigned a non-magical base class like Expert, and we lack access to magical devices so even UMD ranks "don't work" because there's no magic devices beyond smartphones.

The first Wizard 20 might be 100% compatible with reality's secret rules.

I more imagine it'd be a form of living energy subject to mental manipulations. You'd likely need some sort of device to tap into it, and once tapped into, you could use that energy source to form all kinds of "spells."

[Segev]

Send the fiends to Fox News rather than Comedy Central.

True; you'd want people with a firm grasp on reality and a dedication to the truth to deal with such nefarious creatures. :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

True; you'd want people with a firm grasp on reality and a dedication to the truth to deal with such nefarious creatures. :smallwink:I don't think those words mean what you think they mean...

[Segev]

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean...

I suggest we stop here before this gets into inappropriate topics.

[Nifft]

True; you'd want people with a firm grasp on reality and a dedication to the truth to deal with such nefarious creatures. :smallwink:

Please don't send those people in until the fiends are thoroughly done with Fox News.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I suggest we stop here before this gets into inappropriate topics.Agreed.

So, as far as the thread is concerned, let's say we wake up with a popup screen, like what happens in The Gamer (or any of the many and varied derivative fanfictions out there), and we set up our character build. We get everything a level 20 wizard gets, and we get to choose the options that best suit us.

It's a lot less annoying that way, and it's not like it'd take very long to work up to that anyway, given how easy it is to use, say, greater planar binding to get infiniwishes.

[Segev]

Please don't send those people in until the fiends are thoroughly done with Fox News.

As I said, I suggest we stop BEFORE we get into inappropriate topics. And I do think implying unleashing fiends with the intent to harm people for political reasons is "inappropriate."

[Calthropstu]

As I said, I suggest we stop BEFORE we get into inappropriate topics. And I do think implying unleashing fiends with the intent to harm people for political reasons is "inappropriate."

Psh, taking over the world using fiends to assassinate world leaders and media isn't political... It's just common sense. They'd be in your way.

[Nifft]

True; you'd want people with a firm grasp on reality and a dedication to the truth to deal with such nefarious creatures. :smallwink:


As I said, I suggest we stop BEFORE we get into inappropriate topics. And I do think implying unleashing fiends with the intent to harm people for political reasons is "inappropriate."

So, just to be clear on what's going on, you took a joke about sending Outsiders to various talk shows and tried to turn it into a serious political punching match, and now that it turns out you're going to lose you want to abort fight which you had picked.

Abusing magical power to the detriment of disagreeable people seems 100% appropriate in this power fantasy thread.

The only inappropriate thing was you turning the jokes into serious political commentary, and then trying to shut down the conversation after you got your one attack in. That's rather hypocritical, isn't it?

Fox News is bad news-like entertainment, in direct comparison to The Daily Show which is good news-like entertainment -- and Fox News is much less honest about being entertainment rather than news. The fact that Fox News lowers the national dialog with a blatant political bias doesn't mean that every criticism of Fox News is inherently political. Some people just hate them for their contributions to the reduction of journalistic integrity in general.


Sending Outsiders to talk shows was not political. Talk shows are entertainment and advertising platforms, not journalism.

But what you did, which is claim that Fox News represents reality & truth rather than entertainment -- that is political, and that's all on you.

[Segev]

So, just to be clear on what's going on, you took a joke about sending Outsiders to various talk shows and tried to turn it into a serious political punching match, and now that it turns out you're going to lose you want to abort fight which you had picked.Interesting. You accuse me of starting the fight, when the post I made directly quoted somebody else. If there was a first punch thrown, it wasn't by me.

And as even THAT is responding more than I probably should, I'll cease to reply to your efforts to bait me into a political slugfest. I am too easily baited as it is.

[Nifft]

Interesting. You accuse me of starting the fight, when the post I made directly quoted somebody else. If there was a first punch thrown, it wasn't by me. The people who were talking about Outsiders visiting talk shows? That's not a punch, that's humor, and it'd been going on in the thread for a while before you stepped in and made it ugly.

The person claiming that their favorite talk show represented "people with a firm grasp on reality and a dedication to the truth"? That guy is at fault. Talk shows are entertainment and advertising -- not reality, not truth.

That guy at fault was you, in case it's not clear.



And as even THAT is responding more than I probably should, I'll cease to reply to your efforts to bait me into a political slugfest. I am too easily baited as it is. There is nobody here rising to your bait.

Claiming that you're the victim won't get a rise, either, since you're not.

I'm discussing your posts, which are the only political thing here -- and if you cease posting them, all "inappropriate" content will thereby cease.

[Segev]

So, as far as the thread is concerned, let's say we wake up with a popup screen, like what happens in The Gamer (or any of the many and varied derivative fanfictions out there), and we set up our character build. We get everything a level 20 wizard gets, and we get to choose the options that best suit us.

It's a lot less annoying that way, and it's not like it'd take very long to work up to that anyway, given how easy it is to use, say, greater planar binding to get infiniwishes.

This is probably a good way to approach it. My personal assumption was that we get WBL because it's part of being a level 20 character, and because I always get annoyed by "X inserted into Y!" hypotheticals where the rules get changed so that X isn't really a fully-empowered X. (The most egregious I've seen being things like, "Well, since magic isn't real and doesn't work in the real world, the Wizard 20 wouldn't actually have any magical powers.") That kind of thing undermines the whole premise, and makes it a bait-and-switch scenario.

Having a pop-up screen, vivid dream, or other "chargen session" to create your Wizard 20 power suite (including GP to spend on spellbooks and other required items) would be a reasonable way to approach it.

Especially since, "You're a Wizard 20 in your real life; what do you do?" is a very different question than "You're going to become a wizard 20, but are starting at level 1 with a few starter spells; what do you do?" And anything that requires you to bootstrap from no spells to your first spells via standard research will follow a progression very similar to what is theoretically being modeled by the level-up process (even if that's a poor model for anything but adventuring wizards).



Also, regarding Int, I would assume you at LEAST get the +5 from your every-4-levels bonuses, and that any of us would put those straight into Int because we all know how important it is to being a Wizard 20. I'd guess most of us are between 12 and 15 Int natively. At worst, that would mean some of us are stuck with only 17 Int after the +5, and a simple +2 int item (which we, of course, can build) would get us to the 19 minimum necessary to have full spell access.

[Kalkra]

I always kinda assumed that the automatic spells a wizard gets are kinda like all the spells a sorcerer gets. They just kinda come to him due to his magical powers influencing his mind or something, and then he writes them down in his spellbook.

[Nifft]

I always kinda assumed that the automatic spells a wizard gets are kinda like all the spells a sorcerer gets. They just kinda come to him due to his magical powers influencing his mind or something, and then he writes them down in his spellbook.

In some lore, they're spells that the Wizard has been researching over the duration of the previous level.

When the Wizard levels up, he or she completes that research.

This makes more sense if the level-up process takes more time than the "DING!" *click* which OotS lampoons.

[Eldonauran]

I always kinda assumed that the automatic spells a wizard gets are kinda like all the spells a sorcerer gets. They just kinda come to him due to his magical powers influencing his mind or something, and then he writes them down in his spellbook.That is similar to how I treat the sudden acquisition of wizard spells, however, I treat them more like an epiphany. The wizard has a sudden flash of insight towards how the magic is interacting in a new way (ie, new spell level access) and by dwelling on these new methods, he writes down the information (tweaking it as he goes) until it produces a spell. It is more 'spontaneous' researching and he is likely to have taken many notes before he puts them all together and gets a functioning spell.

Sorcerers? Hell, they just grab hold of that arcane energy through sheer force of personality and force it into the shape and function that they want. Them getting new spells is like figuring out a new, fun thing to do with the magic, and making it happen.

[Andor13]

Hmm, how do you think people would handle the more evil aspects of that with a devil or demon into the mix?

It depends, obviously. I think a great deal of value could come from a really, really good interviewer getting a chance to interview a devil that had been bound to give truthful answers. There is always value in those who seek to do good, grasping the nature of evil, unpleasant though it may be. For example: The Screwtape Letters.

It could also go magnificently badly if mishandled. You would definitely want to do some divinations before setting it up, and briefing the interviewer would probably help.


I am not assuming free will is non-existent, merely that in the end, how much you object or reason, the will of the entity (internal or external) would be supreme. Just because something can ignore or override your free will does not mean it doesn't exist.

Well, obviously if you have a GM/Deity then their will is supreme, but the allure of being a mythic hero is the chance to actually meet them face to face and ask "What the hell man?"

[Segev]

That is similar to how I treat the sudden acquisition of wizard spells, however, I treat them more like an epiphany. The wizard has a sudden flash of insight towards how the magic is interacting in a new way (ie, new spell level access) and by dwelling on these new methods, he writes down the information (tweaking it as he goes) until it produces a spell. It is more 'spontaneous' researching and he is likely to have taken many notes before he puts them all together and gets a functioning spell.

Sorcerers? Hell, they just grab hold of that arcane energy through sheer force of personality and force it into the shape and function that they want. Them getting new spells is like figuring out a new, fun thing to do with the magic, and making it happen.

The explanation I run unless there's solid fluff to the contrary for a particular game is that wizards are masters of manipulating ancient (and sometimes negotiating new) contracts with supernatural forces, and that most spells are actually clusters of clauses from various bargains being performed in specific partially-complete ways that get partially-complete responses which the wizard can manipulate into combining to produce the effect he's seeking.

So most wizards' spellbooks are so hard for others to parse because they're usually not neatly organized into singular spells the way "published" ones are. They're full of personal notes, snippets of contracts and bargains, details on how particular effects work and what to do to prepare them, and net combinations of recipes to make things work together. Also probably fair numbers of notes dedicated to preparation of multiple spells in combination to get the most out of the preparation time.

A "new spell" earned at level-up will rarely be a heading in his spellbook, followed by a neatly-written instructions. It will rather be his ongoing study and note-taking leading him to a series of small epiphanies and puzzle-solutions, and he'll have perfected a shorthand list of steps for preparation that only he really understands.

[Quertus]

Actually, people seem to be presuming "poof, you're a 20th lvl wizard with feats and spells and no work." Instant gratification so to speak. Like a "you are the chosen one."

Just doesn't sit right with me because the universe doesn't work like that. I'd imagine it as "you suddenly find you can access some source of power. This power will allow you to manipulate reality in ways similar to D&D spells. Now you have to figure out how it works."

You'd basically feel power build up with certain hand movements and words... and eventually figure out how to build that power into a spell using sound, words and in some cases components.

It would mostly be trial and error, similar to inventing a light bulb.

Well, the OP, IIRC, gave us the abilities of a 20th level Wizard. But never specified the mechanics. So, afaik, we may well just be a X-man mutants with powers that emulate the spells of a 20th level Wizard.

But just feeling magic and being able to learn it? That's the powers of a 0th level Wizard / Sorcerer.


I mean if a GM said, 'Hey guys let's all play a game next week where you walk through a gate and then you're in our world for a time.' Then described to us all how our feats, spells, skills, etc dont work because ours is not a magical gameworld that'd be crummy.

Similarly, if the thread's about a Wiz 20 in our world taking its superpowers away because you dont think superpowers work the way the game says seems crummy to me.

By RAW (2e), that's not entirely unlike what would happen. By RAW (2e), this is, IIRC, a low-magic world. Artifacts would still work - well, truly magical artifacts would still work, whereas artifacts that were only artifacts because they were technology beyond the default 2e D&D world level, like cars and guns and cuisinarts would, I believe, return to working as technology.

Fortunately,, IIRC the OP didn't ask about a level 20 wizard entering our world - it asked what we would do with that much power in this world.


Hm, the conjecture of, "Does any given spell work in our reality the same was it does as presented in the table top game." Is interesting, and many spells certainly would work as they are written, some would not. For example, does Teleportation spells account for the rotation of the earth? And other cross-roads that magic and physics might run into.

But all of that is rendered moot due to the existence of the Spell research rules, because with a decent enough spellcraft check, you can make a spell that works in the same in your current reality, and it wouldn't affect the level very much. A Fireball is a Fireball regardless of the slight variances of causing spontaneous conflagrations in a controlled sphere for your current dimension/plane.

Of course, if you want to take it to the next step and question the result of "Do you even have skill points?" that would certainly go beyond the scope of this thread.

However, being 20th level also includes skill points, you could take 23 ranks of Knowledge(Physics) and/or Profession(Astrophyscist), and finally crack those pesky equations necessary to get humanity off of our tiny rock, or Profession (Stockbroker), and become rich the mundane way. But we still got magic guys! C'mon!

Teleportation spells etc require a specific planar geography to function - a geography which was started as a given in the OP.

And, IIRC, the OP specified the power, not the mechanics or source of that power.

It's almost like the OP had read my objections in other threads before making this one...


Once you have enough money to research a spell of "Hastend spell research" allowing you to take days or hours to complete it, then you're back to it being a non-factor.

Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, created just such a spell. You're the first/only person, other than myself, who I've seen even suggest such an obviously beneficial spell. Kudos!


We all know magic wouldn't work in reality,

Citation please. Oh, wait...



Well, we know that magic hasn't worked yet.

It's possible that magic doesn't work in reality only because everyone on Earth has been assigned a non-magical base class like Expert, and we lack access to magical devices so even UMD ranks "don't work" because there's no magic devices beyond smartphones.

The first Wizard 20 might be 100% compatible with reality's secret rules.


I think the most accurate statement may be that most Playgrounders believe that magic isn't real, but that no-one has presented proof in either direction. Magic may well work on earth; although, by RAW (2e, at least), D&D magic would have some serious issues. So, if D&D Magic were "real", and worked according to RAW, it (mostly) wouldn't work here.

[One Step Two]

Teleportation spells etc require a specific planar geography to function - a geography which was started as a given in the OP.

You are quite correct, I was merely using Teleportation as an example of a spell which can be seen as at odds with how "reality" works.


Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, created just such a spell. You're the first/only person, other than myself, who I've seen even suggest such an obviously beneficial spell. Kudos!

Why thank you! Also, when I developed the spell, it was using a Simulacrum in my personal library, even with only half my skill ranks, it boasted enough bonuses that it could research the spell while I was busy with other tasks. The world won't save itself you know!

Back to the main topic, I think I am more firm on my "hands off" approach to wizardry in reality if I were suddenly imbued with power. Much like typical Comic Book hero's "one rule" when breaking all the others, mine would be that I would never deny the free will of others, even if they are making the wrong choice. Of course, hedging rules is a staple, so if I stack the deck in favor of the right choices....

[Xar Zarath]

...Back to the main topic, I think I am more firm on my "hands off" approach to wizardry in reality if I were suddenly imbued with power. Much like typical Comic Book hero's "one rule" when breaking all the others, mine would be that I would never deny the free will of others, even if they are making the wrong choice. Of course, hedging rules is a staple, so if I stack the deck in favor of the right choices....

So you would keep an eye out on humanity but keeping your distance? Or help some people out once in a while...