Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

[Zevox]

So, there was another Nintendo Direct (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-kQWJrjRV4) about this game today, dropping a lot of new information about the game. And holy moly, they are turning this into a dream come true. A short summary of major things it showed off:

- New Characters: Simon Belmont and King K. Rool.
- New Echo (Clone) characters: Richter Belmont, Dark Samus, Chrom.
- New Assist Trophies: Alucard, Zero, Shovel Knight, the Moon (from Majora's Mask).
- Stages: there are 103 total, before counting the Final Destination and Battlefield variants of every stage.
- You can turn off stage hazards for the first time in the franchise's history.
- New Donk City Hall stage, which is a Delphino Plaza-style stage where a platform takes you to various areas as the fight goes on.
- The Castlevania stage, which is of course Dracula's Castle, will feature a lot of bosses from the series, including Dracula himself.
- Rathalos from the Monster Hunter series will be both a stage hazard boss and an Assist Trophy.
- New "Stage Morph" feature, where you select two stages at the start and the stage will transform from one to the other mid-match.
- A new option to have an actual super meter, similar to more traditional fighting games, which when filled lets you do a weaker version of your Final Smash.
- A new mode called "Smashdown," where players compete in consecutive matches, and after each fight the characters that have already been used become unavailable, until all characters have been used.
- New 3v3 and 5v5 modes where either each player can select a team of multiple characters that they'll play consecutively (ala King of Fighters, it sounds like) or multiple players can be assigned to each different character.
- The game's total amount of music tracks is over 900. Not counting menu music and assorted sound effects it's still over 800.
- A tease of a major new mode they're not talking about yet. (A new form of adventure/story mode, maybe?)

And this is all on top of the previously-announced stuff from E3, such as that the game will have every character who has ever previously been in the series playable, plus Inkling, Ridley, and Daisy.

Holy crap, I don't know how they keep finding all of these things to add to the game that are all such genuinely good ideas, and actually doing all of them rather than deciding they don't have the time/budget for it. I mean, hell, I'm not even interested in any of the new characters revealed so far personally, and most of the new characters that I would have liked to see have been shown to be assist trophies, but I'm still excited seeing all the other cool stuff they're doing with the game. Turning off stage hazards and the super meter for a final smash options sound amazing in their own right to me. About the only thing that's missing for this to really be the Ultimate, dream-come-true Smash game is for them to announce much more robust online play options that include a lobby system where you can select your preferred rules from among any of those normally available offline when creating the lobby. Give me that and this is automatically Game of the Year at that point as far as I'm concerned.
So, all told, we're looking at a game that has:

74 playable characters (76 counting Pokémon Trainer as 3) in the base roster, including everyone who was ever in past Smash games, with one more coming as free DLC and another five as paid DLC.
New characters include long-requested classics like Ridley, King K Rool, and Simon Belmont; newer faces like the Inklings, Isabelle, and Incineroar; and bonus "Echo" (clone) characters including Chrom, Dark Samus, Daisy, Richter Belmont, and Ken.
Many changes large and small to various characters' moves, such as Ganondorf receiving new smash attacks where he uses a sword and Link being updated to be based on his Breath of the Wild version.
Many tweaks to the gameplay, including dodge-rolls having less invincibility when used multiple times consecutively and the return of directional air dodges.
103 stages, before counting the Omega (Final Destination) and Battlefield versions of every stage.
A new story mode called World of Light.
A new Challenge/collectibles mode called Spirits Mode, which connects to World of Light.
Classic mode with unique setups for each character.
Substantially improved options online, including lobbies that don't require fighting people on your friends list.
A lot of new options for versus mode matches, including the ability to turn off stage hazards, the "Stage Morph" feature that causes a fight to transition between two stages, a 3v3 and 5v5 mode, and an optional super meter for Final Smashes.
A new mode called Smashdown, where you play consecutive matches after which the characters you used become unavailable, until you run out of characters to play.
59 assist trophies, almost half of which are new. New ones include Alucard, Spring Man, Rodin from the Bayonetta series, Rathalos from the Monster Hunter series, Shovel Knight, Zero, Knuckles, Guile, the Moon from Majora's Mask, and Akira from Virtua Fighter.
Over 900 music tracks. Over 800 even if you leave off menu music and assorted sound effects.
Living up to the subtitle indeed.

[Jama7301]

It looks fun. I like the Smash games as just a way to kill some time with some friends, so this looks like it will be an excellent addition to that. I'll probably spend a decent amount of time playing just as Simon/Richter to see how different they are, like I did in Smash 4 with Little Mac.

[Rising Phoenix]

snip.

So hunter from monster hunter confirmed as another playable character? I find it very surprising that they'd include Rathalos, but not include a playable character from monster hunter... Could be a dual character ala ice climbers (hunter+palico).

[Zevox]

So hunter from monster hunter confirmed as another playable character? I find it very surprising that they'd include Rathalos, but not include a playable character from monster hunter... Could be a dual character ala ice climbers (hunter+palico).
Nope, no mention of a playable Monster Hunter character, just Rathalos as a boss/assist trophy. And given we know they're doing some third-party content for franchises that aren't getting playable characters (Bomber Man and Shovel Knight as assist trophies, for instance), I'd assume that Rathalos being revealed without a character reveal means there won't be one. Still, a very fun little extra inclusion. Smash at this point has got to be the biggest crossover series of all time with so many third-party franchises popping up in one way or another.

[Jama7301]

I'm not too sure on that one. It could just be part of the agreements Nintendo has had with Capcom for their Mario/Link skins in the 3DS monster hunter games.

Plus, Golden Sun characters have appeared as Assist Trophies for a bit, but that series hasn't been represented as playable characters.

Also, the hill I will die on is that Waluigi can go take a hike and go away.

Edit the second:

Smash at this point has got to be the biggest crossover series of all time with so many third-party franchises popping up in one way or another.

The only thing I can think of being close are those Shonen Jump crossover games that have protagonists from all sorts of anime and manga fighting.

[danzibr]

#1 reason for me to buy a Switch.

[DaOldeWolf]

Nope, no mention of a playable Monster Hunter character, just Rathalos as a boss/assist trophy. And given we know they're doing some third-party content for franchises that aren't getting playable characters (Bomber Man and Shovel Knight as assist trophies, for instance), I'd assume that Rathalos being revealed without a character reveal means there won't be one. Still, a very fun little extra inclusion. Smash at this point has got to be the biggest crossover series of all time with so many third-party franchises popping up in one way or another.

It is worth pointing out that the Monster hunter stage is not shown as one of the 103 playable stages so it might belong to a new boss game mode or maybe some sorty or adventure mode.

[Zevox]

Plus, Golden Sun characters have appeared as Assist Trophies for a bit, but that series hasn't been represented as playable characters.
Actually, the one assist trophy from Golden Sun, Isaac, didn't appear in Smash 4, IIRC, just Brawl. Sadly the series is kind of dead at this point, after the failure that was Dark Dawn. Pity, Isaac's technically one of the only characters I'd be genuinely excited to see become playable in Smash that hasn't been revealed as an assist trophy already, but at this point I expect it's more likely because we won't see anything Golden Sun beyond maybe some trophies and a song, if that.


Also, the hill I will die on is that Waluigi can go take a hike and go away.
I have to agree. All of the Mario characters that are worth putting in are already playable - plus Daisy, now. Maybe when they do something with Waluigi besides use him as a filler character in the sports/party spin-offs he can be playable, but so far, that's all Nintendo seems to think is worth doing with him.


It is worth pointing out that the Monster hunter stage is not shown as one of the 103 playable stages so it might belong to a new boss game mode or maybe some sorty or adventure mode.
I thought that stage was that big plains one from Xenoblade? :smallconfused: Would be surprised if they slipped up enough to show us part of that new mode they teased like that, when they could have just announced Rathalos as an assist trophy and saved the boss reveal for later if they wanted to.

[Rising Phoenix]

I thought that stage was that big plains one from Xenoblade? :smallconfused: Would be surprised if they slipped up enough to show us part of that new mode they teased like that, when they could have just announced Rathalos as an assist trophy and saved the boss reveal for later if they wanted to.

That stage is the plains from the forest map from monster hunter ultimate...

[deuterio12]

Actually, the one assist trophy from Golden Sun, Isaac, didn't appear in Smash 4, IIRC, just Brawl. Sadly the series is kind of dead at this point, after the failure that was Dark Dawn. Pity, Isaac's technically one of the only characters I'd be genuinely excited to see become playable in Smash that hasn't been revealed as an assist trophy already, but at this point I expect it's more likely because we won't see anything Golden Sun beyond maybe some trophies and a song, if that.


If anything, Sakurai has shown he's willing to listen to the fans with Ridley and Chrom, so it's mostly a matter of getting enough people claiming Isaac for Smash.

How old the game is not that important, Ice Climbers had just that one game in the NES after all.

[Zevox]

If anything, Sakurai has shown he's willing to listen to the fans with Ridley and Chrom, so it's mostly a matter of getting enough people claiming Isaac for Smash.

How old the game is not that important, Ice Climbers had just that one game in the NES after all.
Perhaps. But Golden Sun is niche enough that I wouldn't compare the amount of people who wanted to see Isaac to what Chrom, K. Rool, or especially Ridley had, and it's not the sort of very old classic like the Ice Climbers that they just seem to like to throw in a character or two from just for the fun of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if it actually happens - Isaac was actually the character I submitted to the open ballot they did for Smash 4 DLC - but I'm not holding out much hope, not after they didn't even bother bringing back his assist trophy in Smash 4.

[Yael]

Perhaps. But Golden Sun is niche enough that I wouldn't compare the amount of people who wanted to see Isaac to what Chrom, K. Rool, or especially Ridley had, and it's not the sort of very old classic like the Ice Climbers that they just seem to like to throw in a character or two from just for the fun of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if it actually happens - Isaac was actually the character I submitted to the open ballot they did for Smash 4 DLC - but I'm not holding out much hope, not after they didn't even bother bringing back his assist trophy in Smash 4.

Now all we need is Waluigi to come home, and the memes will die down.

[Scowling Dragon]

Say does that mean we will Have Palutena Communicating with Snake or Snakes allies communicating to Palutena and Viridi on certain stages?

[BeerMug Paladin]

For some reason, I actually watched this thing. Anyone else notice the yellow and purple chairs in the background? Hmmm, I wonder..?

Sakurai does some amusing things in his presentation videos. He knows how to get that Internet a-Internettin'.

[chainer1216]

Ive loved the Smash series since the 64, but i havent felt it was enough to buy a console for.

Smash Ultimate though? I think this IS worth it. Ill be picking up a switch soon.

[Chromascope3D]

Smash 4 had DLC, so I wouldn't be surprised if anything that's missing showed up post launch, Isaac included.

[Zevox]

Say does that mean we will Have Palutena Communicating with Snake or Snakes allies communicating to Palutena and Viridi on certain stages?
Wouldn't surprise me if they do both Snake's codices and Palutena's Guidance, and have at least one conversation apiece where there's some crossover. Maybe just one or the other, but either way, I'd bet on at least one conversation where the others butt in.


Smash 4 had DLC, so I wouldn't be surprised if anything that's missing showed up post launch, Isaac included.
That would surprise me, actually. I imagine if they were going to do more DLC for Smash Ultimate, it would be someone less niche who is more likely to sell to a greater portion of the audience. The main character of Fire Emblem: Three Houses getting in that way like Corrin did wouldn't surprise me, or new Pokèmon, or someone like Dixie Kong that is a relatively big name from a middle-tier mainstay franchise that they just haven't included yet. A character from a dead franchise like Golden Sun I think is either getting thrown in with the base roster or just not happening, unless he manages to win another DLC ballot somehow.

[Chromascope3D]

That would surprise me, actually. I imagine if they were going to do more DLC for Smash Ultimate, it would be someone less niche who is more likely to sell to a greater portion of the audience. The main character of Fire Emblem: Three Houses getting in that way like Corrin did wouldn't surprise me, or new Pokèmon, or someone like Dixie Kong that is a relatively big name from a middle-tier mainstay franchise that they just haven't included yet. A character from a dead franchise like Golden Sun I think is either getting thrown in with the base roster or just not happening, unless he manages to win another DLC ballot somehow.

Tru, but anecdotally, Isaac is the most requested character I've personally seen (that hasn't been confirmed already and isn't Waluigi) since they started taking requests with Smash 4, at least over here. I dunno what the priorities of the Japanese audience are. :p

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I have to confess, I'm a little worried about content overload here. There's just so much being promised, and I've already heard that the stage selection screen is going to feature miniscule thumbnails since it's including every stage. I can't even imagine how they're going to try and balance the roster, or if they will try and balance the roster.

That said, really digging the Final Smash meter option; the thing I never liked about Final Smashes was the "winner takes all" nature of Smash Balls. It tends to create a snowball effect if someone gets lucky or is really good at grabbing them. Letting everyone evenly charge up Final Smashes makes the game more about landing those Final Smashes, because if you whiff, your opponent still has theirs and is now advantaged.

[Jama7301]

Cloud gets double limit break gauges, which is neat.

[Resileaf]

I'm really happy that a lot of things appear to be unlockables. I've come to really miss the concept of having to unlock extra material in games you play. These days, everything is already unlocked unless it's DLC so there is no excitement about playing a new character because you already have all the characters in the game.
So yeah, looking forward to unlocking things through playing the game!

[Rodin]

I'm really happy that a lot of things appear to be unlockables. I've come to really miss the concept of having to unlock extra material in games you play. These days, everything is already unlocked unless it's DLC so there is no excitement about playing a new character because you already have all the characters in the game.
So yeah, looking forward to unlocking things through playing the game!

I recall this being one of the major problems with the 3DS Smash Bros. There were around a dozen character unlocks, a handful of stage unlocks, and then that was pretty much it. Given how much unlocking stuff was a feature of the previous games, the lack of content was a pretty big disappointment. Looking at the Wii U version, it seems like there were unlockables there. Buuuuut...that would have meant buying a Wii U, so....

[Resileaf]

I recall this being one of the major problems with the 3DS Smash Bros. There were around a dozen character unlocks, a handful of stage unlocks, and then that was pretty much it. Given how much unlocking stuff was a feature of the previous games, the lack of content was a pretty big disappointment. Looking at the Wii U version, it seems like there were unlockables there. Buuuuut...that would have meant buying a Wii U, so....

I don't know about unlockables on the 3DS version, but the Wii U had no unlockable characters.
It did have unlockable move variants though, which was pretty cool.

[Red Fel]

Walking the unlockable line is tricky, though.

On the one hand, unlockable stuff is a great achievement and incentive to keep playing. I remember older versions of Smash where I worked for hours to unlock various characters.

On the other, though? Smash is a social game. You play it, ideally, with friends. (Or in a tournament, hey, do you.) And there's a decent chance that, in your circle of friends, one or two of you have the game, and the rest play it with them.

Now you have a problem. See, in order to unlock everyone's favorite characters, ("Hey, why isn't Meta Knight unlocked?") you need to have played the game. For hours. And if it's your game, you're basically the only one getting those hours of play experience.

Let's say you grab some barrels of freeze-dried food, call in your office with the plague, and sit down to play your game for a week straight or until you have absolutely everything unlocked, whichever comes first. At the end of that time, you take several showers, call your friends, and invite them over to play your fully-unlocked Smash game. Who's going to win every single game? Who's going to absolutely dominate? Is it the friends who just showed up to play? Or the obsessed completionist who just spent a week straight in unwashed boxer shorts grinding this game until he knew every possible trick?

It takes some of the fun out, when your friends show up for a fun crazy game, and one player is able to utterly own the field like that, is my point.

[Resileaf]

Well I think it's something we think because we're all old and have jobs and responsibilities.
But from the viewpoint of children or teenagers who have free time and can hang out with each other often.
Every hour they put it Smash together is an hour in which they unlock characters together.
That might be Nintendo's angle there.

[Red Fel]

Well I think it's something we think because we're all old and have jobs and responsibilities.
But from the viewpoint of children or teenagers who have free time and can hang out with each other often.
Every hour they put it Smash together is an hour in which they unlock characters together.
That might be Nintendo's angle there.

But not all unlocks are done in versus, are they? I mean, if they are, I'm sold. But I remember versions of Smash where the unlock condition was "beat this level" or "do this thing" or somesuch, frequently in solo play.

Sure, if it's just a case of "X hours spent in versus mode," that's fun for everybody. Except where everybody doesn't have their favorite character unlocked yet. But those guys are jerks.

Because they play Meta Knight.

[Resileaf]

Gonna have to admit I don't actually know how unlocks are made. I do remember in Melee however that most characters could be unlocked either through time played in versus or through single player games, although some could only be unlocked through versus.
I'm reminded in particular of Mewtwo. It actually scared the crap out of my brother and I when the 'a new challenger approaches' screen appeared because we had no idea Mewtwo was in this game.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Walking the unlockable line is tricky, though.

On the one hand, unlockable stuff is a great achievement and incentive to keep playing. I remember older versions of Smash where I worked for hours to unlock various characters.

On the other, though? Smash is a social game. You play it, ideally, with friends. (Or in a tournament, hey, do you.) And there's a decent chance that, in your circle of friends, one or two of you have the game, and the rest play it with them.

Now you have a problem. See, in order to unlock everyone's favorite characters, ("Hey, why isn't Meta Knight unlocked?") you need to have played the game. For hours. And if it's your game, you're basically the only one getting those hours of play experience.

Let's say you grab some barrels of freeze-dried food, call in your office with the plague, and sit down to play your game for a week straight or until you have absolutely everything unlocked, whichever comes first. At the end of that time, you take several showers, call your friends, and invite them over to play your fully-unlocked Smash game. Who's going to win every single game? Who's going to absolutely dominate? Is it the friends who just showed up to play? Or the obsessed completionist who just spent a week straight in unwashed boxer shorts grinding this game until he knew every possible trick?

It takes some of the fun out, when your friends show up for a fun crazy game, and one player is able to utterly own the field like that, is my point.
Also, there's the competitive angle. Every unlockable character is another one that needs to be taken care of on every single Switch that you use to host a tournament, because you have to give everyone access to the full roster of playable characters.

Plus, y'know, "Play as all these characters, but in order to foster a sense of pride and accomplishment, you need to grind out these characters in gameplay."

[Scowling Dragon]

"Play as all these characters, but in order to foster a sense of pride and accomplishment, you need to grind out these characters in gameplay."

Well remember this the internet TODAY. Before it was like:
"Hey buddy you like those 30 characters right?....PSYCHE WE HAVE 20 MORE!"

[Zevox]

Tru, but anecdotally, Isaac is the most requested character I've personally seen (that hasn't been confirmed already and isn't Waluigi) since they started taking requests with Smash 4, at least over here. I dunno what the priorities of the Japanese audience are. :p
Your impression of how heavily he's requested is higher than mine then. As well as your impression of Waluigi's - since when does he have a serious fanbase, as opposed to the occasional random troll who says they'd like him in?


I have to confess, I'm a little worried about content overload here. There's just so much being promised, and I've already heard that the stage selection screen is going to feature miniscule thumbnails since it's including every stage. I can't even imagine how they're going to try and balance the roster, or if they will try and balance the roster.
Eh, balance has always been kind of a joke in Smash. Especially because, perhaps more so than even more traditional fighting games, balance for competitive play is completely different than balance for casual play. I honestly don't think the designers themselves know or care enough about competitive play to balance it for that, and most people won't care about balance at a casual level unless someone is blatantly ridiculous even in a beginner's hands, which I don't think we've had before. Maybe early Little Mac, who seemed to cause a lot of frustration when Smash 4 first came out, but that's about it.


I'm really happy that a lot of things appear to be unlockables. I've come to really miss the concept of having to unlock extra material in games you play. These days, everything is already unlocked unless it's DLC so there is no excitement about playing a new character because you already have all the characters in the game.
So yeah, looking forward to unlocking things through playing the game!
Ugh, I'd forgotten about that. I'm very much the opposite, that's the one thing that's been announced about the game that I genuinely dislike. Not looking forward to spending the first however many hours with the game jumping through hoops in order to unlock the basic content I want to play, probably by playing some parts of the game I'd otherwise prefer to ignore. That's the sort of thing that I wish would just die out entirely and no longer be a thing we need to worry about in modern games, personally.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Metaknight caused a lot of complaints in my playgroup back in Brawl, too. Mostly by tornado-spamming.

[tonberrian]

Maybe a compromise? There's secret characters you can unlock in vs mode or the 1 player adventure, but then there's also an option in settings that just unlocks them as well. Maybe one for trophies as well - i like getting trophies as rewards for things, but sometimes i just want to read the lore on them.

[Zevox]

Maybe a compromise? There's secret characters you can unlock in vs mode or the 1 player adventure, but then there's also an option in settings that just unlocks them as well. Maybe one for trophies as well - i like getting trophies as rewards for things, but sometimes i just want to read the lore on them.
Would be nice, but I wouldn't bet on it ever happening.

[deuterio12]

Your impression of how heavily he's requested is higher than mine then. As well as your impression of Waluigi's - since when does he have a serious fanbase, as opposed to the occasional random troll who says they'd like him in?

Waluigi still not being playable in Smash got its own entry in knowyourmeme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/waluigis-smash-snub) and in other forums I hang around there were more people claiming to want him.


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/401/460/d9c.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/381/997/81a.png

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/382/014/9b3.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/365/201/bf1.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/381/996/7be.png

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/382/433/a2f.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/386/849/74b.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/339/950/28f.gif


Granted it may not be the more scientific source, but there's plenty of artists throwing in with Waluigi which shows he has some degree of popularity.

I recall Riddley for Smash getting a lot of memes and comics back in the day too (a good chunk of them being Samus personally vetoing the monster that killed her parents).

[Zevox]

Waluigi still not being playable in Smash got its own entry in knowyourmeme (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/waluigis-smash-snub) and in other forums I hang around there were more people claiming to want him.


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/401/460/d9c.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/381/997/81a.png

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/382/014/9b3.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/365/201/bf1.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/381/996/7be.png

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/382/433/a2f.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/386/849/74b.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/339/950/28f.gif


Granted it may not be the more scientific source, but there's plenty of artists throwing in with Waluigi which shows he has some degree of popularity.

I recall Riddley for Smash getting a lot of memes and comics back in the day too (a good chunk of them being Samus personally vetoing the monster that killed her parents).
:smallconfused: ...weird. The internet can truly be a baffling place...

[Zevox]

So, randomly thinking about possible Echo characters they might be saving for future reveals, it occurred to me that practically every third-party character has an obvious option.

Sonic -> Shadow (Maybe Tails, except Sonic's up throw has him hitting people with his spikey back, which wouldn't translate great to Tails.)
Mega Man -> Proto Man
Pac-Man -> Mrs. Pac-Man
Ryu -> Ken and/or Akuma
Bayonetta -> Jeanne (And/or Rosa, but Jeanne's far more likely.)

I'm not familiar enough with Metal Gear to know who, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an easy one out there for Snake. (Raiden before he became a ninja cyborg? I think I heard he was the main character of MGS2.) Which would be everyone except Cloud. And you could probably throw in any random Final Fantasy protagonist that uses a big sword as an echo of him I suppose, but I'm not sure who FF fans would actually want for that, if anyone.

Honestly many of these are so obvious that I'll almost be more surprised if we don't see them. Sadly including Shadow since I don't think we've seen his assist trophy return yet, but they've highlighted the addition of Knuckles as a new assist trophy from the series both at E3 and in the post-Evo direct, which is a tad suspicious when you think of it in that light. But I'd be pretty happy to see Proto Man or Jeanne myself.

[Mando Knight]

Proto Man is unlikely since he was added to Mega's Final Smash (alongside Bass).

[Zevox]

Proto Man is unlikely since he was added to Mega's Final Smash (alongside Bass).
Not necessarily. Would be easy to just replace him in the Final Smash with Mega Man himself, wouldn't it?

[Rodin]

But not all unlocks are done in versus, are they? I mean, if they are, I'm sold. But I remember versions of Smash where the unlock condition was "beat this level" or "do this thing" or somesuch, frequently in solo play.

Sure, if it's just a case of "X hours spent in versus mode," that's fun for everybody. Except where everybody doesn't have their favorite character unlocked yet. But those guys are jerks.

Because they play Meta Knight.

It's generally pretty standard to have both, at least in Smash Bros. Most unlocks are typically "Do X in Solo mode, or Play Y VS matches". It's just a lot easier to unlock some of the characters via the other method, rather than knocking out 700 VS matches. Then again, if the only time you play Smash is with friends then those VS games would go by at a steady pace.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not familiar enough with Metal Gear to know who, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an easy one out there for Snake. (Raiden before he became a ninja cyborg? I think I heard he was the main character of MGS2.) Which would be everyone except Cloud. And you could probably throw in any random Final Fantasy protagonist that uses a big sword as an echo of him I suppose, but I'm not sure who FF fans would actually want for that, if anyone.


The obvious one there would be Zack Fair, the character Cloud himself is an in-universe echo of. Although they're close enough together you could probably just have him represented as a palette swap/color choice of Cloud without much difficulty. Zack has featured as himself in a few games, tho, so there should sufficient material to create some altered moves or different traits to differentiate him adequately to make an echo rather than just a colorchange.

As for other big-sword users in FF.. honestly not too many come to mind, although I'm sure they exist. Gladiolus in FFXV is the only one I can readily think of that uses something as hilariously huge as Cloud's iconic Buster. Maybe Auron in X, although his style and presentation don't really match well with Cloud.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Maybe a compromise? There's secret characters you can unlock in vs mode or the 1 player adventure, but then there's also an option in settings that just unlocks them as well. Maybe one for trophies as well - i like getting trophies as rewards for things, but sometimes i just want to read the lore on them.
Honestly, that's a pretty neat solution. Give the grind to people who have fun with that, but for people who want access to those characters immediately, give them that option.

[Forum Explorer]

But not all unlocks are done in versus, are they? I mean, if they are, I'm sold. But I remember versions of Smash where the unlock condition was "beat this level" or "do this thing" or somesuch, frequently in solo play.

Sure, if it's just a case of "X hours spent in versus mode," that's fun for everybody. Except where everybody doesn't have their favorite character unlocked yet. But those guys are jerks.

Because they play Meta Knight.

I remember a smash bros having both. Play a bunch of verse (and it was a lot) to unlock the character, or beat a challenge to unlock them quickly.

[Jurai]

So, randomly thinking about possible Echo characters they might be saving for future reveals, it occurred to me that practically every third-party character has an obvious option.

Sonic -> Shadow (Maybe Tails, except Sonic's up throw has him hitting people with his spikey back, which wouldn't translate great to Tails.)
Mega Man -> Proto Man
Pac-Man -> Mrs. Pac-Man
Ryu -> Ken and/or Akuma
Bayonetta -> Jeanne (And/or Rosa, but Jeanne's far more likely.)

I'm not familiar enough with Metal Gear to know who, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an easy one out there for Snake. (Raiden before he became a ninja cyborg? I think I heard he was the main character of MGS2.) Which would be everyone except Cloud. And you could probably throw in any random Final Fantasy protagonist that uses a big sword as an echo of him I suppose, but I'm not sure who FF fans would actually want for that, if anyone.

Honestly many of these are so obvious that I'll almost be more surprised if we don't see them. Sadly including Shadow since I don't think we've seen his assist trophy return yet, but they've highlighted the addition of Knuckles as a new assist trophy from the series both at E3 and in the post-Evo direct, which is a tad suspicious when you think of it in that light. But I'd be pretty happy to see Proto Man or Jeanne myself.

Tails could use his tails to damage enemies in flight (it's how you take out Robotnik in Marble Garden Zone as Solo Tails), so he could spin his tails to do that.

[chainer1216]

There was a new Nintendo Direct on the 20th where FIVE characters were announced as well as revealing that there will be over 100 stages, over 300 if you count hazardless ans Omega versions of each stage. Theres also a hidden game mode on the main menu that is almost certainly the return of a story mode.

[Rodin]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

[Jurai]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter because he retains the spin as his down special (I think, I don't know how Smash 4 altered Mario's Pharmacopeia for handing prescriptions of KOs.) Falco has a much better aerial game, and his reflector is a projectile. Roy's not an Echo because his neutral special damages him.

[Mando Knight]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

Falco was decloned in Brawl, and Wolf was designed with a unique moveset separate from Fox and Falco's (although their specials are similar). Similarly, Roy was extensively decloned in his DLC appearance in Smash 4, and those moveset changes have carried on to Ultimate. We don't know exactly how much Dr. Mario differs from regular Mario now (besides that he still has the Tornado move instead of Mario's FLUDD, and he got a new dair), nor exactly how much a cloned fighter can differ from its original and still count as an Echo (Chrom looks to have a different Up-B move than Roy, the largest moveset change known between the Echo fighters).

[Zevox]

There was a new Nintendo Direct on the 20th where FIVE characters were announced as well as revealing that there will be over 100 stages, over 300 if you count hazardless ans Omega versions of each stage. Theres also a hidden game mode on the main menu that is almost certainly the return of a story mode.
:smallconfused: Uh, that was on the 8th, not the 20th, and is what my first post is about.


Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?
I agree that they're a bit inconsistent about labeling some of the older characters as Echos. Some of the original clones were substantially enough changed that they're practically wholly different - Falco and Ganondorf especially - but Roy and Doctor Mario have only a couple of moves altered in more than their physics properties. And they're clearly willing to label characters as Echos even if there's a slight moveset difference since they just revealed Chrom, who from footage looks to be an echo of Roy (his jab is the new one Roy got in Smash 4, and his neutral special is vertical like Roy's instead of horizontal like Marth's), but has Ike's Aether as his up special instead of Roy's. Which is obviously appropriate since Chrom learns Aether in his game, but still, bit of a snag in any claim that the "Echo" label is reserved only for the cloniest clones. (Personally I wish they'd just made Chrom a lighter-weight Echo of Ike instead, but eh.)

As for how Falco isn't a clone, he had a lot of moves changed to be wholly different from Fox's in Brawl. His jab, up tilt, nair, fair, fsmash, and reflector special are all now unique to him. He's not quite as differentiated as, say, a Lucas or Luigi, who resemble Ness and Mario only in passing on a few moves and really aren't clones at all, but he's much more his own character than he was before. And Wolf was never a clone and is in the Lucas/Luigi category; the only similarities he shares to Fox are his specials being broadly similar - blaster neutral, reflector down, etc - but they're quite different in animation and actual effect (his blaster being a single slow shot with a lot of hitstun vs Fox's being rapid-fire but causing no hitstun), and his normals aren't shared with Fox in the slightest.

Doctor Mario, Roy, and probably Pichu though should likely be labeled as Echoes but aren't. Maybe Young Link too, though I guess with the changes to the regular Link in this game you can make the argument that he shouldn't anymore.

[Forum Explorer]

Looking at the main roster on Nintendo's site, I'm a bit confused. What exactly is an Echo character? I assumed it was just meant for clones, but their definition of clone doesn't seem to match mine.

For instance, Lucina is listed as an Echo of Marth, which is fair. However, the original Marth clone Roy is now listed as a separate character. Daisy is listed as an Echo of Peach, but Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo of Mario. Falco and Wolf aren't Echoes of Fox or each other. Wolf I can certainly see an argument for since his moveset is slightly different and his slowness makes him play far differently, but how is Falco not an Echo character?

Am I missing something?

Roy at least, changed quite a bit from Marth when his DLC was released. They aren't very similar at all now. Falco and Dr. Mario have different effects for their moves, and much different weights. So I'm guessing Echos are literally just reskins, with no weight or move differences.

[chainer1216]

:smallconfused: Uh, that was on the 8th, not the 20th, and is what my first post is about.


but i...i even googled it the double check...how did i...?

anyway, sorry for being dumb.

[danzibr]

I’m guessing echoes will be ever so slightly different. Like Marth v Lucinda sweet spot.

[Zevox]

Roy at least, changed quite a bit from Marth when his DLC was released. They aren't very similar at all now. Falco and Dr. Mario have different effects for their moves, and much different weights. So I'm guessing Echos are literally just reskins, with no weight or move differences.

I’m guessing echoes will be ever so slightly different. Like Marth v Lucinda sweet spot.
Yeah, none of the Echos/clones that we know of are or have ever been completely just reskins. Lucina is the one most similar to her original as of Smash 4, and even she still has the tipper mechanic removed and the damage of her attacks normalized relative to Marth's. Dark Pit is the next closest, and he still has various physics differences from Pit (i.e. Pit's side special launches enemies vertically, Dark Pit's launches more horizontally).

Not sure about some of the new ones yet, haven't seen much of Daisy, Richter, or Dark Samus. But as mentioned before it's obvious that Chrom isn't an exact copy of Roy since he has Ike's up special, Aether. So to all appearances Echos will have small differences from their originals - which is a pretty good description of Roy, Doctor Mario, and Pichu, unless they've had more changes I haven't heard of.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, none of the Echos/clones that we know of are or have ever been completely just reskins. Lucina is the one most similar to her original as of Smash 4, and even she still has the tipper mechanic removed and the damage of her attacks normalized relative to Marth's. Dark Pit is the next closest, and he still has various physics differences from Pit (i.e. Pit's side special launches enemies vertically, Dark Pit's launches more horizontally).

Not sure about some of the new ones yet, haven't seen much of Daisy, Richter, or Dark Samus. But as mentioned before it's obvious that Chrom isn't an exact copy of Roy since he has Ike's up special, Aether. So to all appearances Echos will have small differences from their originals - which is a pretty good description of Roy, Doctor Mario, and Pichu, unless they've had more changes I haven't heard of.

Roy at least is pretty dramatically different by his DLC. I guess we'll see if Doctor Mario and Pichu got some new changes.

[Maryring]

Maybe it's about how different the fighters play? Back in Melee, Pichu may have had the same moveset as Pikachu, but she was still a fragile little thing inferior in almost every way as an intentional hard mode character, with the primary advantage being having the best agility for grabbing items. Playing Pikachu and Pichu well required rather different strategies. Or maybe they just don't want Pichu and Pikachu to be compared closely because of Pichu's self-damage mechanic.

[Jama7301]

I was operating under the assumption that Chrom was an Echo of Ike, instead of Roy. I'd have to check that video again.

It seems like the Echo version has slight adjustments, like launch/recovery angles, or slight variants to the moves. If they have wholesale new moves or replacement moves, I think that gets them separated from the main fighters.

Riiiiichteeeeeeeer!

[Jurai]

What is an echo fighter? A miserable little clone with minor changes! But enough talk, have at you!

[Zevox]

Roy at least is pretty dramatically different by his DLC. I guess we'll see if Doctor Mario and Pichu got some new changes.
While I never bought Roy and so don't have firsthand experience with him in Smash 4, the only new move I recall him getting is his jab. And if you're referring to physics properties and the like, he had differences there back in Melee too, as have basically all clones in the franchise to date other than Lucina.


Maybe it's about how different the fighters play? Back in Melee, Pichu may have had the same moveset as Pikachu, but she was still a fragile little thing inferior in almost every way as an intentional hard mode character, with the primary advantage being having the best agility for grabbing items. Playing Pikachu and Pichu well required rather different strategies. Or maybe they just don't want Pichu and Pikachu to be compared closely because of Pichu's self-damage mechanic.
You just described all clones, though. Small differences in how they work lead to small differences in how people play them.


I was operating under the assumption that Chrom was an Echo of Ike, instead of Roy. I'd have to check that video again.
Nope. I'd have thought that's what they'd do, but all of his moves except Aether are of the Marth variety - even in the direct you saw him perform several of Marth's aerials up close. And a video they've released since the direct showing him and Lucina fighting Dark Samus and Ridley had enough footage to identify him as specifically being an echo of Roy rather than Marth - he has Roy's new jab. But also Aether.

[Jama7301]

Nope. I'd have thought that's what they'd do, but all of his moves except Aether are of the Marth variety - even in the direct you saw him perform several of Marth's aerials up close. And a video they've released since the direct showing him and Lucina fighting Dark Samus and Ridley had enough footage to identify him as specifically being an echo of Roy rather than Marth - he has Roy's new jab. But also Aether.

Man, that's weird. He just feels like he'd be a bulkier fighter. Maybe that's how he'll Echo Roy/Marth. Keep some of the quickness while having some more weight to resist being launched.

[Resileaf]

What is an echo fighter? A miserable little clone with minor changes! But enough talk, have at you!

Dracula had better show up as a stage hazard/boss to throw glasses of wine at people.

[Zevox]

Man, that's weird. He just feels like he'd be a bulkier fighter. Maybe that's how he'll Echo Roy/Marth. Keep some of the quickness while having some more weight to resist being launched.
I know, right? I mean, he is technically Marth's descendant, so I could see them wanting him to have a connection to him in-game - but if he's a Roy echo, then technically he only even has that secondhand. I'm hoping that in terms of his weight class he falls in between Roy and Ike, that seems like the most appropriate range for him.


Dracula had better show up as a stage hazard/boss to throw glasses of wine at people.
I don't know about throwing wine, but he's definitely a stage hazard/boss, along with something like a dozen other Castlevania bosses. They showed that off in the direct when Simon was announced.

[Maryring]

You just described all clones, though. Small differences in how they work lead to small differences in how people play them.


With the topic at hand you know perfectly well that was not the purpose of the message. Of course any speculation about why some clones are echos and some aren't will touch upon what distinctions exist.

[Zevox]

With the topic at hand you know perfectly well that was not the purpose of the message. Of course any speculation about why some clones are echos and some aren't will touch upon what distinctions exist.
...but my point is that there really isn't a distinction there. The difference between Pichu and Pikachu is in no way larger than that between known echoes, and is likely less than that between Roy and Chrom, since Chrom at least has one move completely different from Roy, which isn't the case for Pichu unless something has changed.

All I'm saying is that they are likely being inconsistent with their labeling of echoes. Which seems pretty obvious I think. If it were everyone that was clearly based on someone else at all it would make sense. If it were everyone less distinct from their originals than Falco it would make sense. If it were only characters with no moves that differ from their originals it would make sense. But it's none of those things, and it's easy to identify a few clones that aren't being categorized as echoes who seem no more distinct from their originals in any way than the characters who are being categorized as echoes. The natural conclusion isn't that there's some extremely fine hair being split that we're not privy to, but that they're simply being inconsistent, I'd say.

[Rodin]

...but my point is that there really isn't a distinction there. The difference between Pichu and Pikachu is in no way larger than that between known echoes, and is likely less than that between Roy and Chrom, since Chrom at least has one move completely different from Roy, which isn't the case for Pichu unless something has changed.

All I'm saying is that they are likely being inconsistent with their labeling of echoes. Which seems pretty obvious I think. If it were everyone that was clearly based on someone else at all it would make sense. If it were everyone less distinct from their originals than Falco it would make sense. If it were only characters with no moves that differ from their originals it would make sense. But it's none of those things, and it's easy to identify a few clones that aren't being categorized as echoes who seem no more distinct from their originals in any way than the characters who are being categorized as echoes. The natural conclusion isn't that there's some extremely fine hair being split that we're not privy to, but that they're simply being inconsistent, I'd say.

What I find odd is that they've chosen to define it at all. There were plenty of Clone/Echo characters in the previous games and everyone just sort of shrugged and moved on. Given that several characters have been getting further and further from their original with each game (I note that Ganondorf finally has his sword, for example), choosing to now make an Echo label that is not consistent seems strange. That's why I was wondering if there is some special property of Echo characters, like having them be chosen as different "skins" of existing characters to try and save space on the character select screen - kind of like the EX versions of characters in Guilty Gear.

[Mando Knight]

Until we know anything else specific, Echo is otherwise really just a term for "Clones introduced after Brawl"--the Smash 4 clones are Echos, Toon Link (whose clone status is a bit odd in that he replaced Young Link wholesale for two games) and the Melee clones aren't.

[Zevox]

What I find odd is that they've chosen to define it at all. There were plenty of Clone/Echo characters in the previous games and everyone just sort of shrugged and moved on. Given that several characters have been getting further and further from their original with each game (I note that Ganondorf finally has his sword, for example), choosing to now make an Echo label that is not consistent seems strange. That's why I was wondering if there is some special property of Echo characters, like having them be chosen as different "skins" of existing characters to try and save space on the character select screen - kind of like the EX versions of characters in Guilty Gear.
Likely because the reaction to them in the past wasn't "shrug and move on," it was "be angry that character slots were wasted on them." There was a lot of complaining about Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario in Smash 4 because of their clone status. Heck, I even recall back in the Brawl days when some people were upset that both Ike and Marth were in the game, because the relative scarcity of pre-release examples of how they play lead some people to believe that Ike was a Marth clone, so they assumed he was replacing him. Or I've seen people complain that Lucario is a Mewtwo clone when literally the only thing they have that's even similar is their neutral special move.

Openly acknowledging that these characters are different and saying "hey, we're just throwing them in because it's easy to make them, they're not taking any spots that would have gone to anyone else" has made the reception of them a lot better this time, at least from what little I've seen.

They did mention in the last direct that Echo characters can be set to display either as a smaller part of their original in the character select screen or to have their own space though, to answer that part of your speculation.


Until we know anything else specific, Echo is otherwise really just a term for "Clones introduced after Brawl"--the Smash 4 clones are Echos, Toon Link (whose clone status is a bit odd in that he replaced Young Link wholesale for two games) and the Melee clones aren't.
Eh, Toon Link's also in the same category as Falco - some of his moves are take from the original Link, but not all. All of Link's kick attacks were replaced by various sword slashes, and his fair is also completely different, where Young Link had just taken Link's moves wholesale. And at least in the past two games his boomerang just being a regular one rather than the gale boomerang was a notable difference, though now that's gone since regular Link is back to a normal boomerang. Having the hookshot for his grab is a significant difference now though since Link lost that.

But you are right, at this point the Echo label has only been applied to characters who originated in Smash 4 and later. And the ones that are similar enough to their originals that this seems inconsistent are the Melee clones in particular (aside from Falco and Ganondorf).

[DaOldeWolf]

I thought that stage was that big plains one from Xenoblade? :smallconfused: Would be surprised if they slipped up enough to show us part of that new mode they teased like that, when they could have just announced Rathalos as an assist trophy and saved the boss reveal for later if they wanted to.

Nope, Its a new stage based from MH4. Drácula is also fought in a different place to the one used to play.

And speaking of Echoes, from what I understand they have to have the same basic skeleton, shares almost all moves and the have to have the same weight and moving speed.

Pichu is lighter than Pikachu. Doc Mario is slower than Mario.

[itskando]

But will it have Geno ; j

[Zevox]

But will it have Geno ; j
My bet would be "no," but at this point, who knows? Aside from maybe Dixie Kong, all of what I'd call the most likely choices for the roster are now present and accounted for. Kind of a crapshoot who might be left - besides that there's probably not many left, since we were specifically told that bringing back everyone would mean there would be fewer newcomers this time.

About the only safe-ish bet is that there's probably going to be a new Pokémon from one of the newer games, since that always seems to happen.

[Mando Knight]

About the only safe-ish bet is that there's probably going to be a new Pokémon from one of the newer games, since that always seems to happen.

They skipped giving Gen III and V representatives, and probably will do the same for VII (if we do get a VII rep, it's probably either Incineroar or Decidueye). Sakurai apparently picked out Greninja as the Gen VI rep before XY was even released, so it's possible we might see a Gen VIII 'mon make its debut in Smash Ultimate the way Roy did in Melee.

[Zevox]

They skipped giving Gen III and V representatives, and probably will do the same for VII (if we do get a VII rep, it's probably either Incineroar or Decidueye). Sakurai apparently picked out Greninja as the Gen VI rep before XY was even released, so it's possible we might see a Gen VIII 'mon make its debut in Smash Ultimate the way Roy did in Melee.
*shrug* Hey, I haven't played a Pokémon game since Gen 4, and barely played that. I'm making no assumptions or guesses about who the new Pokémon may be (couldn't if I tried, since I don't know what's out there to choose from), just observing that there being at least one new Pokémon has been a consistent thing every game, and one from a newer title is probably a safer bet than an older one.

[Lethologica]

I'm hoping that in terms of his weight class he falls in between Roy and Ike, that seems like the most appropriate range for him.
If weights are anything like previous generations, this will be very difficult not to achieve.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm so looking forward for this game. I'm going to play Ness and he'll be an Omega Supreme God-Tier character and he'll the living daylights out of everybody. :biggrin:

[Zevox]

So, a Nintendo Direct happened this afternoon, and we got another newcomer announced: an Animal Crossing character named Isabelle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcQv1q2nFso).

Huh. Did not see that coming - I figured the Villager was all that franchise really needed. And she seems to have at least some things in common with him, although she's definitely no echo. Eh, whatever I guess, there's probably some people that'll be happy to see her.

[chainer1216]

Shes actually quite popular and ive seen her on pretty much every potential character list ive checked out.

[Mando Knight]

Shes actually quite popular and ive seen her on pretty much every potential character list ive checked out.

She's also ventured outside her home series before--she's an Assist Trophy (and also a Mii Gunner costume) in Smash 4, and one of the DLC characters in Mario Kart 8.

[DaOldeWolf]

I wonder what do people in here think of the box theory?

https://imgur.com/o31DlaI

[Zevox]

I wonder what do people in here think of the box theory?

https://imgur.com/o31DlaI


Sounds quite plausible. We were told to expect fewer newcomers this time around, so I've been figuring only 2-3 more maybe, besides echoes, and that was before Isabelle. The only thing about it that would confuse me is their decision to hold only one echo and one unique newcomer for the last three months before release, while revealing so many at once in the post-Evo Direct (two full newcomers and three echoes). Seems like that could have been spaced out better if that's indeed what we're looking at for the final roster size. But eh, could be they're counting on the mystery mode to be a big reveal that builds excitement in lieu of characters too.

[Qwertystop]

My primary guess/hope for a newcomer is Neku, from The World Ends With You.

- Nintendo is being more willing to let in third-parties
- SquareEnix has already shown they're willing to send Cloud to Smash; at least Neku's been on Nintendo systems before
- The World Ends With You is getting a remake for Switch soon, so that's a nice little bit of cross-promotion
- Neku's got a crazy-wide set of attacks in TWEWY, so there's plenty of room to go with any fighting style they could think of and still accurately represent someone's playstyle.
- He's not yet-another-guy-with-a-sword, which is sort of my personal pet peeve about the roster. Too many swordsmen.

[Zevox]

- He's not yet-another-guy-with-a-sword, which is sort of my personal pet peeve about the roster. Too many swordsmen.
I always get really annoyed by that complaint. It makes no sense - there's more unarmed fighters in the game than swordsmen, yet nobody has a problem with getting more of those, even though it's just as true that there's only so many ways to punch or kick someone as it is that there's only so many ways to swing a sword. It's pure nonsense for how a character fights to be an issue, unless they don't fight at all - and even those can be worked out if you really try and are willing to let them be kind of goofy (see Phoenix Wright being playable in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3).

[Bartmanhomer]

I hope Waluigi going to be in this game.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm likely one of the very few people who want this, but I hope Krystal is a newcomer to the game. And I hope she uses her staff as a weapon, because I actually really did like Star Fox Adventures. Also it's a style of fighting we actually don't have at all.

[Zevox]

I hope Waluigi going to be in this game.

I'm likely one of the very few people who want this, but I hope Krystal is a newcomer to the game. And I hope she uses her staff as a weapon, because I actually really did like Star Fox Adventures. Also it's a style of fighting we actually don't have at all.
Both have been shown already as assist trophies, so nope, not playable.

Krystal is one that I would kind of like to see someday - used to be one I was genuinely hoping for back in the Brawl days, I was disappointed when Wolf become the 3rd Star Fox character instead of her. But I'm not expecting her to ever make it at this point, with Star Fox having been all but dead for so long and its attempted return not going so hot (plus I think she wasn't even in that game, so they might be dropping her from her own series).

Waluigi though can stay an AT forever as far as I'm concerned - or at least until Nintendo starts doing something with him besides being roster filler in the Mario spinoffs. I'd rather see major characters from other franchises than a character as minor as him.

On the subject of assist trophies you wish were playable, Lyn from Fire Emblem and Midna from Zelda are the big two for me. Lyn's long been my favorite character from her franchise, and I've love to see her as a super-speedy type, perhaps to the point where only Sonic and maybe Captain Falcon were faster than her. Fire Emblem Warriors got her down pretty darn well, it'd be nice to see Smash take some cues from that. And Midna could bring a magic-centric play style to smash, which we don't have that many of (Robin and Palutena to some extent, but that's about it), and IMO is still the best character in the Zelda franchise's history outside of the big 3. But alas, both also known to be assist trophies, and most likely any window of opportunity they ever had to be playable is past.

[Forum Explorer]

Both have been shown already as assist trophies, so nope, not playable.

Krystal is one that I would kind of like to see someday - used to be one I was genuinely hoping for back in the Brawl days, I was disappointed when Wolf become the 3rd Star Fox character instead of her. But I'm not expecting her to ever make it at this point, with Star Fox having been all but dead for so long and its attempted return not going so hot (plus I think she wasn't even in that game, so they might be dropping her from her own series).

Waluigi though can stay an AT forever as far as I'm concerned - or at least until Nintendo starts doing something with him besides being roster filler in the Mario spinoffs. I'd rather see major characters from other franchises than a character as minor as him.

On the subject of assist trophies you wish were playable, Lyn from Fire Emblem and Midna from Zelda are the big two for me. Lyn's long been my favorite character from her franchise, and I've love to see her as a super-speedy type, perhaps to the point where only Sonic and maybe Captain Falcon were faster than her. Fire Emblem Warriors got her down pretty darn well, it'd be nice to see Smash take some cues from that. And Midna could bring a magic-centric play style to smash, which we don't have that many of (Robin and Palutena to some extent, but that's about it), and IMO is still the best character in the Zelda franchise's history outside of the big 3. But alas, both also known to be assist trophies, and most likely any window of opportunity they ever had to be playable is past.

The latest Star Fox game was a reboot so Krystal wasn't in it, and yeah it went poorly because they decided on a retarded control scheme. I hope that it didn't kill the series, and that they do end up bringing Krystal back.

Midna would be another cool one, with her riding wolf link to boot.

[Zevox]

Midna would be another cool one, with her riding wolf link to boot.
If she had to I suppose, though personally I'd actually prefer they didn't do that and just had her floating around in Imp form. Because I want to play as Midna, not so much Wolf Link.

[Forum Explorer]

If she had to I suppose, though personally I'd actually prefer they didn't do that and just had her floating around in Imp form. Because I want to play as Midna, not so much Wolf Link.

Imp form would be cool, but there's more room for abilities if they add Wolf Link. Either way though she basically has a final smash built in with her Shadow Relics attack.

Oooh, but you know what I really wish for? That they change Ganondorfs move set entirely.

[Zevox]

Imp form would be cool, but there's more room for abilities if they add Wolf Link. Either way though she basically has a final smash built in with her Shadow Relics attack.

Oooh, but you know what I really wish for? That they change Ganondorfs move set entirely.
Yeah, that's long overdue for sure. I'm honestly surprised we got his new smash attacks this time - after they didn't touch him in Brawl or 4, I figured we were just stuck with him like that forever. Maybe if we get lucky they'll keep changing a little bit each game and eventually he'll have a full moveset that actually reflects his character.

[BeerMug Paladin]

What about Mallo for one of those... ??? ...characters? (Ness, G&W, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer...)

I haven't seen one shown for this one, but there's seems to always be a new one in the roster. I suppose Isabelle could count for this, though. Even though her announcement didn't surprise me to nearly the degree as the others...

Of course at this point I'm sort of amazed there's as many characters in there as there have been shown, so I won't really have any complaints about missing options.

[Qwertystop]

What about Mallo for one of those... ??? ...characters? (Ness, G&W, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer...)

I haven't seen one shown for this one, but there's seems to always be a new one in the roster. I suppose Isabelle could count for this, though. Even though her announcement didn't surprise me to nearly the degree as the others...

Of course at this point I'm sort of amazed there's as many characters in there as there have been shown, so I won't really have any complaints about missing options.

Wait, why are you including Ness on that list? EarthBound is old now, but it wasn't when Smash 64 came out (and MOTHER 3 for N64 hadn't been announced as cancelled yet).

[Zevox]

So it was announced (https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1057270899957776384) today that there will be a Smash-specific Nintendo Direct on Thursday morning (10 am eastern/7 pacific). A very big one, apparently, at 40 minutes long. For comparison, the big direct from August that announced all that stuff I summarized in the thread's first post was "only" 27 minutes long.

Yeah, between that length and the fact that we're only a little over a month away from the release date, I think we're getting the final big pre-release infodump. Darn shame that it's in the middle of the morning, I'd like to be able to actually watch this one as it airs, but no way I can do so at that time on a work day. Oh well, I'll watch it on lunch that day I guess.

[Tsuzurao]

I always get really annoyed by that complaint. It makes no sense - there's more unarmed fighters in the game than swordsmen, yet nobody has a problem with getting more of those, even though it's just as true that there's only so many ways to punch or kick someone as it is that there's only so many ways to swing a sword. It's pure nonsense for how a character fights to be an issue, unless they don't fight at all - and even those can be worked out if you really try and are willing to let them be kind of goofy (see Phoenix Wright being playable in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3).

For my personal opinion, I don't care that much about the number of sword-fighters, but I've seen a part of the argument I can somewhat understand. Fire Emblem representatives in particular are all sword-wielders (with Robin and Corrin being the ones that least focus on that, but still wield them), but the franchise is rather notable for its Weapon Triangle system, so there's a wish that FE representatives would represent more of those weapon styles (axes or spears being the most obvious picks).

[Qwertystop]

For my personal opinion, I don't care that much about the number of sword-fighters, but I've seen a part of the argument I can somewhat understand. Fire Emblem representatives in particular are all sword-wielders (with Robin and Corrin being the ones that least focus on that, but still wield them), but the franchise is rather notable for its Weapon Triangle system, so there's a wish that FE representatives would represent more of those weapon styles (axes or spears being the most obvious picks).

For me it's half that and half the fact that most of the unarmed fighters still feel more distinct from most of the sword ones. Some of that's probably specials – before Corrin and Cloud turned up in DLC, I think the only sword-wielders who had any sort of projectile or any down-special that wasn't a counter were Robin and the three Links (and Toon Link had only two of the three). The many characters who use unarmed combat for their standard/strong/smash/arial attacks have a lot of variety in specials, and often toss something more interesting in for a nonspecial as well, and vary wildly in body shape (thus also in reach and hitbox size) on top of it. I think the only characters who just-do-unarmed-melee-combat-and-nothing-else are... Little Mac, DK, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Sonic, and Ganondorf? The last two add lots of particle effects to at least disguise it a little, and none of the others feel at all similar.

[danzibr]

I’d overall agree with the complaint of sword wielders being too similar. Some feel distinct, like Ike’s slow and heavy, Marth’s graceful and fast, but... yeah, a lot of them feel similar.

While there are multiple Links, at least “he” has tricks which make him different, like bombs and whatnot.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm looking forward for the tier list. And yes I believe in tiers.

[Zevox]

For my personal opinion, I don't care that much about the number of sword-fighters, but I've seen a part of the argument I can somewhat understand. Fire Emblem representatives in particular are all sword-wielders (with Robin and Corrin being the ones that least focus on that, but still wield them), but the franchise is rather notable for its Weapon Triangle system, so there's a wish that FE representatives would represent more of those weapon styles (axes or spears being the most obvious picks).
I understand that, I kind of wish we could get that too, but there's a very understandable reason why we don't. The obvious place you go first for picking characters for a game like this is the leads of the franchise, and for a series like Fire Emblem that gets a new cast of characters almost every game, there's a lot of those to go around. And it just so happens that most of them are sword wielders, since that's kind of the traditional heroic weapon in most cultures. Even when there are lead characters who use other weapons, they tend to share the spotlight with a sword-wielder who winds up more popular than them. I mean, unless I'm forgetting someone, there's exactly five of those in the entire series, and two of them are already in Smash (Robin and Corrin, who use magic and dragon stones respectively in addition to swords).

The other three would be Hector, Ephraim, and Micaiah. Hector's probably the best pick from among them, having some actual popularity in his own right, but also tends to be eclipsed in popularity even in his own game by his co-star Lyn, who has still only managed to get assist trophy status. Micaiah is so far eclipsed by Ike it's not even funny - I know I recall some people talking about wanting her in Brawl back in the day when that game was still new, but now that it's in the past, nobody seems to care about her anymore. Ephraim is probably the only one who isn't eclipsed by his co-star, but he's also completely unremarkable aside from his status as the sole Lord of the franchise whose primary weapon is a spear.


For me it's half that and half the fact that most of the unarmed fighters still feel more distinct from most of the sword ones. Some of that's probably specials – before Corrin and Cloud turned up in DLC, I think the only sword-wielders who had any sort of projectile or any down-special that wasn't a counter were Robin and the three Links (and Toon Link had only two of the three).
As someone who plays most of the sword-users (everyone except regular Link, Lucina, Dark Pit, Cloud, and Roy - and those last two are at least partially because I never bought their DLC), I couldn't disagree more that they don't feel distinct. Aside from the actual clones, obviously (which is why I don't play Lucina or Dark Pit), but with Echo Characters being made a formal thing in Ultimate they've made it clear that those are regarded as just easy-to-add bonuses for people who like that specific character.

But all of the non-clones? Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, Pit, Meta Knight, Link, Toon Link, and Shulk? Very distinct from one another all around. Even Link and Toon Link are made vastly different by one being a heavyweight and the other a lightweight, plus Toon Link swapping Link's kick attacks for sword swings, along with other more subtle differences - in their case I don't play just one of them because of them being too similar, I do so because I don't like how regular Link plays but I do like how Toon Link does.

I will agree on one thing though: I wish they'd stop lazily giving most of the Fire Emblem characters a counter for their down special. It was already getting repetitive when they did it with Ike despite him not being a clone, but come on, Corrin too? (No idea whether Shulk's was laziness or just something that was too appropriate to his abilities not to give him, since I haven't played his game.) Though they have been doing that with more than just the Fire Emblem characters too - see Greninja and Palutena.


The many characters who use unarmed combat for their standard/strong/smash/arial attacks have a lot of variety in specials, and often toss something more interesting in for a nonspecial as well, and vary wildly in body shape (thus also in reach and hitbox size) on top of it. I think the only characters who just-do-unarmed-melee-combat-and-nothing-else are... Little Mac, DK, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Sonic, and Ganondorf? The last two add lots of particle effects to at least disguise it a little, and none of the others feel at all similar.
Unless you're redefining things here, most of the cast are unarmed combatants. Everyone who doesn't fight by wielding a weapon - so everyone except the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus characters, Meta Knight, King Dedede, the Links, and the Belmonts. And I guess Mega Man and Bayonetta, though the former is a bit odd to lump in with the melee weapon users and the latter does mostly punch people with her weapons, since they only gave her her guns.

[Qwertystop]

As someone who plays most of the sword-users (everyone except regular Link, Lucina, Dark Pit, Cloud, and Roy - and those last two are at least partially because I never bought their DLC), I couldn't disagree more that they don't feel distinct. Aside from the actual clones, obviously (which is why I don't play Lucina or Dark Pit), but with Echo Characters being made a formal thing in Ultimate they've made it clear that those are regarded as just easy-to-add bonuses for people who like that specific character.

But all of the non-clones? Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, Pit, Meta Knight, Link, Toon Link, and Shulk? Very distinct from one another all around. Even Link and Toon Link are made vastly different by one being a heavyweight and the other a lightweight, plus Toon Link swapping Link's kick attacks for sword swings, along with other more subtle differences - in their case I don't play just one of them because of them being too similar, I do so because I don't like how regular Link plays but I do like how Toon Link does.

I will agree on one thing though: I wish they'd stop lazily giving most of the Fire Emblem characters a counter for their down special. It was already getting repetitive when they did it with Ike despite him not being a clone, but come on, Corrin too? (No idea whether Shulk's was laziness or just something that was too appropriate to his abilities not to give him, since I haven't played his game.) Though they have been doing that with more than just the Fire Emblem characters too - see Greninja and Palutena.

Unless you're redefining things here, most of the cast are unarmed combatants. Everyone who doesn't fight by wielding a weapon - so everyone except the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus characters, Meta Knight, King Dedede, the Links, and the Belmonts. And I guess Mega Man and Bayonetta, though the former is a bit odd to lump in with the melee weapon users and the latter does mostly punch people with her weapons, since they only gave her her guns.

I'll grant that the characters might feel more different to each other when you know them better; I've never been very good at Smash, but at a supercasual level they do feel very much the same for me (except Pit/Dark Pit and Meta Knight; the former I mentally filed under "character who's got a lot of options in their games that went mostly unused", which is my other pet peeve, instead of "character with swords", and the latter I just forgot).

Shulk's counter is... well, it's as close as they could get to a major in-game mechanic within the constraints of Smash. It fits him, it's just annoying because so many other characters already had basically the same thing (with arguably less specific justification).

But that last point, about just about everyone being weaponless, is why I made a point of saying unarmed-melee-combat-and-nothing-else. I know just about everyone has at least a few attacks that involve punching or kicking, but very few have nothing else. Most of the sword characters are nearly sword-only.

[Zevox]

I'll grant that the characters might feel more different to each other when you know them better; I've never been very good at Smash, but at a supercasual level they do feel very much the same for me (except Pit/Dark Pit and Meta Knight; the former I mentally filed under "character who's got a lot of options in their games that went mostly unused", which is my other pet peeve, instead of "character with swords", and the latter I just forgot).
I'd call myself a pretty casual player too. Aside from watching competitive Smash specifically during Evo each year and learning a couple of very simple combos (mostly down throw into whatever any given character can get off of that, really), I don't do anything particularly special while playing. I try to play as well as I can of course, but I've never learned any of what the competitive community tends to term "advanced techniques," and I think I only once saw a site that had frame data for Smash 4.


But that last point, about just about everyone being weaponless, is why I made a point of saying unarmed-melee-combat-and-nothing-else. I know just about everyone has at least a few attacks that involve punching or kicking, but very few have nothing else. Most of the sword characters are nearly sword-only.
But even when unarmed characters have something else, their attacks are still almost entirely punches and kicks. Just like you wouldn't say that Ike doesn't count as a sword wielder just because he has Eruption or that Meta Knight doesn't count because of the Tornado, it strikes me as silly not to classify someone like Diddy as an unarmed fighter just because he has his peanut popgun for one move, or Wario just because he has the bike. Or similarly, if Link counts as a sword user despite having some kick attacks, Samus surely counts as an unarmed fighter despite having a couple of attacks where she fires her arm canon, since her moveset is just as dominated by punches and kicks (mostly kicks) as Link's is by sword strikes.

[chainer1216]

Im really curious if that Grinch leak from last week turns out to be accurate, if so thats a really weird group of characters being added (other than the 2 echo fighters).

[Zevox]

Im really curious if that Grinch leak from last week turns out to be accurate, if so thats a really weird group of characters being added (other than the 2 echo fighters).
I wish. Not only does it include the one character on my wishlist who isn't currently stuck in assist trophy status (Isaac), but one that only isn't on that wishlist because they seem like such a pipe dream given the circumstances - Banjo and Kazooie. Seriously, if Banjo & Kazooie were announced for Smash, it'd be the most exciting addition for me personally since Sonic the Hedgehog.

But I doubt it. It's way too many characters given we were told to expect fewer newcomers this time because of every past character returning, and it looks more like someone's wishlist than a realistic roster.

[boj0]

Well that Direct was....something.
I honestly feel so many conflicting emotions about the whole thing that I ended up feeling nothing.

[Resileaf]

Well? Don't leave us who are trapped at work hanging. What did they announce?

[GloatingSwine]

Well? Don't leave us who are trapped at work hanging. What did they announce?

Incineroar, Ken, and Piranha Plant as new characters. Ken is an Echo of Ryu, PP is a preorder bonus/free until February.

Also intro/trailer for the single player mode, which is best summed up by the following video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shs7VQhVvxA

[Resileaf]

Are we talking an actual pirahna plant, or Petey Pirahna?

Also glad to hear there's a real single player mode again.
Although that whole "Everyone is dead" sounds, uh, a bit hardcore?

[GloatingSwine]

Are we talking an actual pirahna plant, or Petey Pirahna?

Also glad to hear there's a real single player mode again.
Although that whole "Everyone is dead" sounds, uh, a bit hardcore?

Actual piranha plant. In a pipe and everything.

Technically everyone except Kirby is dead. So it's fine. Kirby will fix it. (Smash is low key in the Kirby series anyway)


Also also, the single player mode looks p. hueg. Has an adventure map that you walk around looking for battles, setup story battles against various things from represented games, some examples shown are Guts Man, some angels from Bayonetta, and a thing from Pikmin and presumably freeing all the fighters.


Also you can get Spirits, which are like trophies from previous games that can enhance your fighters and can be levelled up and sometimes evolved. There are lots of them, from most or all of the repped series.

Announced the inevitable season pass too. $25 for five new fighters and stages to be released over time.

[chainer1216]

Why do they keep killing characters in these?!

[Resileaf]

Actual piranha plant. In a pipe and everything.

Technically everyone except Kirby is dead. So it's fine. Kirby will fix it. (Smash is low key in the Kirby series anyway)


Also also, the single player mode looks p. hueg. Has an adventure map that you walk around looking for battles, setup story battles against various things from represented games, some examples shown are Guts Man, some angels from Bayonetta, and a thing from Pikmin and presumably freeing all the fighters.


Also you can get Spirits, which are like trophies from previous games that can enhance your fighters and can be levelled up and sometimes evolved. There are lots of them, from most or all of the repped series.

Announced the inevitable season pass too. $25 for five new fighters and stages to be released over time.

Well I can imagine there's gonna be a lot of gimmicky stuff with that new character.

I'm glad to hear that about the story mode. The last Smash was pretty underwhelming in scope because Nintendo had gone all in on multiplayer replayability instead of longevity (it showed in other games as well, like Mario Kart, where every race was super short).

Pretty much inevitable that all AAA games are gonna come along with season passes by now. It's the new DLC or microtransaction.

[GloatingSwine]

Why do they keep killing characters in these?!

So that they have a narrative reason for you to gradually encounter them in the single player mode.

[DaOldeWolf]

I wonder what do people in here think of the box theory?

https://imgur.com/o31DlaI



Well, it seems that the theory I brought up was right.

Anyway, I am glad to have incineroar as a pokemon fan and piranha plant definitely seems like Sakurai´s signature WTF character.

[DiscipleofBob]

So is Piranha Plant one of the five DLC characters or is it Piranha Plant plus five more?

[GloatingSwine]

So is Piranha Plant one of the five DLC characters or is it Piranha Plant plus five more?

Piranha Plant plus five more.

PP is a free character if you buy at launch, general availability in February.

My wishlist, in case Sakurai is reading this, is Shovel Knight, Sans, Banjo & Kazooie, Shantae, and the knight from Hollow Knight (with Hornet as an assist trophy).

[Zevox]

Okay, well, others already hit the characters, but trying to summarize the latest direct like I did the August one:
Characters: Incineroar, Ken (Echo), Pirranah Plant (initially-free DLC).
DLC: 5 characters planned, each will come with a stage and music for $6 US, a "Fighters Pass" bundling all 5 will be available for $25.
Mii Costumes: Yiga Clan (no idea what this is from...), Splatoon 2, Ribbon Girl, Chibi Robo, Ray MkIII, Toy-Con (no idea what this is from either), Rex (Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - only as a bonus when buying the Fighters Pass).
Assist Trophies: Isaac, Shadow, Takamaru, Dr. Wily, Guile, Yuri Kozukata (Fatal Frame), The Black Knight (Fire Emblem), Tiki (Fire Emblem), Spring Man (Arms), Vince (Art Academy), Akira (Virtua Fighter).
Spirits Mode: A new adventure/challenge-ish mode, kind of hard to get a good feel for right now. Spirits seem to work similar to Stickers from Brawl's Subspace Emissary, being equipped to characters to act as powerups. Spirit Battles are also heavily thematic - for instance, one to acquire Fire Emblem's Owain has you fighting a Chrom with Owain's color scheme who will taunt a lot and wields the Killing Edge item. Or to acquire "The Imprisoned" from Zelda: Skyward Sword you fight Girahim's assist trophy and a large-size King K. Rool who gets a ton of super armor, trying to mirror the encounters with "The Imprisoned" in that game. Spirits also level up, evolve, and can be "sent back to the real world" (there's a theme going on based on Smash 64's original conceit of the characters all being toys in the real world). Yeah, it's all quite complicated and probably going to require playing around with to full get, it looks like.
Local wireless play is a thing, ala Smash 4 3DS.
Online play has been overhauled. No more "For Fun" and "For Glory" - you can set your preferred rules and search for other players with the same/similar preferred rules for matches. Also, searching for matches while doing other things is available. Matchmaking also tries to give you matches with players who are closer to you geographically, and factor in "Global Smash Power" (the game's kinda-sorta rank system).
Players with a high enough "Global Smash Power" online will enter a special "Elite Battles" mode, which the devs will apparently be monitoring for when they consider making balance changes to the game.
Two players on the same Switch can play online together on a co-op team. (Yes, this is new - for some reason they didn't think of this in Smash 4.)
Online also has a Lobby system that isn't limited to friends at last, called "Battle Arenas."
Voice chat will use the Switch's phone app.

So, wow, yeah, lots of stuff. Have to say, I'm incredibly happy with all of the online stuff. It looks like such a huge step up from Smash 4, and should make this one a blast to play online - provided the netcode holds up at least as well as Smash 4's did, or hopefully even better. I definitely look forward to being able to search for matches with just stage hazards turned off rather than being stuck on Omega (or Battlefield) versions of the stages all the time, and to using the lobby mode. That all is by far the best set of improvements they've announced for the game for me personally.

As far as the characters go, nothing exciting for me personally, but Incineroar and Ken are fine choices. The Piranha Plant though... can't imagine what the hell they were thinking on that one. I mean, never thought I would be saying this, but if they wanted a new Mario character, Waluigi would legitimately have been a better choice. At least he has a name and a unique look. This is literally just a nameless, basic enemy. That's really pretty lame. Compared to Mewtwo as Smash 4's free bonus, this is the biggest step down I can imagine. Which is a weird misstep considering how great everything else in the game looks.

Other than that though, yeah, great roster. Kind of disappointing that the most exciting newcomer for me personally is Chrom, who is just an echo, but there's so many veterans that I love that it's hard to really complain. Especially after Sonic and Mega Man. And I do have a history of ending up really enjoying characters that don't get me excited before release - hell, in the first three games my main wound up being someone from a game I'd never played (Captain Falcon in 64, Marth in Melee, Lucas in Brawl), so maybe I'll wind up really liking some of the other newcomers despite not being a big fan of them outside of Smash.

As for Spirits mode, kind of hard to judge right now. I'll say this though: I hope you can use it to quickly unlock everybody, because oh gods, that starting roster is depressing. I thought it was at least the original 12, but no, just the eight that were unlocked from the start in the first game. That's 66 characters we need to unlock... there is not much that makes me unhappy with this game, but oh boy, is that a big one.


My wishlist, in case Sakurai is reading this, is Shovel Knight, Sans, Banjo & Kazooie, Shantae, and the knight from Hollow Knight (with Hornet as an assist trophy).
Shovel Knight is already an assist trophy, so you can mark him off as not happening. Don't know who Sans or Hollow Knight are, so could be they are too and I just didn't notice.

Shantae might be a legit possibility. She popped up briefly during one of the Spirits mode teaser portions as a spirit, so they already have the rights to use her to some extent in the game at least, and unlike assist trophies there's nothing saying Spirits can't also be playable. Entirely possible she's in the planned DLC lineup, I think.

Banjo and Kazooie, well, like I said this morning, feels like a pipe dream to me, considering who owns them at this point, but damn if I wouldn't absolutely love that if it happened.

Beyond that pipe dream though, I'm not sure who to hope for from the DLC personally. Every Nintendo character that I'd like to see made playable is consigned to assist trophy status - Lyn, Midna, Krystal, and now sadly Isaac too. Plus a couple of the 3rd-party options I'd like, Knuckles and Zero. Doesn't leave me with anything obvious to hope for, really. Most of the outside franchises I'm a big fan of these days have little to no connection to Nintendo - it's not like we're ever going to see Ragna the Bloodedge, Yuri Lowell, Yu Narukami, or Dante be serious candidates for Smash. And they already got my big ones from the classic days in Sonic and Mega Man, plus the only modern one that's become closely associated with Nintendo, Bayonetta. So I guess it's just a matter of seeing what we do get and deciding whether or not I want to spend any money on them.

[Qwertystop]

I'm rather annoyed that they decided custom moves were too hard to balance... and then brought back equipment as a gacha (Spirits).

The actual story-mode looks good, as does the event-match stuff assuming the spirit battles from the start of the direct exist separately from the story mode.

Rather annoyed at the amount of time spent on the really pointless stuff like "you buy individual music tracks" and "the existence of a help menu". And they'll probably weight all options for preferred online play equally, as though the difference between 3 or 4 stock was comparable to the different stage-selection or item options.

[deuterio12]

I'm rather annoyed that they decided custom moves were too hard to balance... and then brought back equipment as a gacha (Spirits).


Thematically I love it since "You can have your character supported by other characters" is just much better than "You can have your character do a slightly different move."

Plus spirits can go in anybody, while for custom moves each character must have their own and it's only any good for said character.

[Qwertystop]

Thematically I love it since "You can have your character supported by other characters" is just much better than "You can have your character do a slightly different move."

Plus spirits can go in anybody, while for custom moves each character must have their own and it's only any good for said character.

Yeah, but the way the Spirits are (or at least appear to be) designed there's no way they'll get any play in multiplayer – too unbalanced for competitive play, since it's basically a gacha, and too tedious to configure before a match for casual play. Custom moves, despite the tedium of unlocking them and the awkwardness of setting them up, ended up not being terribly balanced on the whole, and I'm pretty sure they got used in at least one actual big competitive tournament when a plan was made to deal with the logistics (polls were run ahead of time to pick ten sets per character, to be preloaded on all the systems, which saved unlocking time because they only had to be unlocked on one 3DS to load on all the Wii Us).

[Zevox]

I'm rather annoyed that they decided custom moves were too hard to balance... and then brought back equipment as a gacha (Spirits).
Eh, I'm not, really. Custom moves were a good idea in theory, but in execution they were kind of crap. Only Palutena had real interesting variety in her options, and for everybody else they were an unholy pain in the ass to unlock. I know I never got anywhere close to getting them all, because I just gave up out of disinterest after a little while.


Rather annoyed at the amount of time spent on the really pointless stuff like "you buy individual music tracks" and "the existence of a help menu".
Eh, he wanted to go over everything in the game, and didn't linger on it long. *shrug*


And they'll probably weight all options for preferred online play equally, as though the difference between 3 or 4 stock was comparable to the different stage-selection or item options.
I sure hope not. One would think they could tell what actually similar preferences would be. Same stage and item preferences should be top priority, followed closely by stock vs timed, while specific amount of lives or time should obviously be the most flexible.

Though in any case, with how popular Smash is, there will probably be plenty of people playing at any given time that you'll usually get matched with someone with the same preferences anyway. Unless I suppose you pick a truly bizarre setup, like Omega stage only but high items and timed at one minute or something.

[deuterio12]

Yeah, but the way the Spirits are (or at least appear to be) designed there's no way they'll get any play in multiplayer – too unbalanced for competitive play, since it's basically a gacha, and too tedious to configure before a match for casual play.

That's self-contradictory. If you're playing casual, the only reason to configure just before the battle would be to try to counter your opponent, which isn't that casual. For every other case you would already have a favorite set equiped for your character or certainly there'll be a way to set up configurations before time and then you just pick one with a click (I recall being able to save and quickload custom move configurations too). Or just grab a bunch of random stuff and roll with it for fun.

[Rising Phoenix]

Well that's enough info for me to pre-order...

As for DLC characters, one of the five is certainly going to be the lord/protagonist from Fire Emblem- Three houses.

I guess a new pokemon is also a possibility.

[Qwertystop]

That's self-contradictory. If you're playing casual, the only reason to configure just before the battle would be to try to counter your opponent, which isn't that casual. For every other case you would already have a favorite set equiped for your character or certainly there'll be a way to set up configurations before time and then you just pick one with a click (I recall being able to save and quickload custom move configurations too). Or just grab a bunch of random stuff and roll with it for fun.

Not contradictory, just a different approach from yours. I don't have a main for casual play; I almost never play the same character more than twice in a row unless I'm trying to be competitive (not that I do that often; I did a bit before the Switch was released, but even then it was just taking-it-seriously games and/or informal tournaments with friends, not actual events). Given the option, I'd be toggling at least one custom move every round in Smash 4, and I expect I'd do the same with Spirits in Ultimate if they offer a decent interface for that. Which they won't.

[Zevox]

As for DLC characters, one of the five is certainly going to be the lord/protagonist from Fire Emblem- Three houses.
I actually don't think it will be after this direct. Remember how Sakurai said that the reason Rex wasn't made playable but instead became a Mii Costume is because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 wasn't announced until after the roster was decided? I'd have to assume that means the DLC roster too, or else they'd make him a DLC character. In which case there's no way that Fire Emblem: Three Houses didn't miss any chance it had to be considered for the DLC lineup too.

Honestly, thinking about it, I'd speculate that we might see most or even all five DLC characters end up being third-party ones. Smash 4's DLC was mostly a mix of returning veterans and 3rd party ones, with Corrin as the only exception, chosen as advertising. So if veterans are out, and advertising doesn't really work if they decided on the lineup long ago, that just leaves 3rd party characters and any Nintendo ones that aren't currently playable or assist trophies. And well, the pickings for the latter are pretty slim - Dixie Kong is about the only semi-major name that comes to mind that is still in neither category. Plus, third-party characters likely draw the most attention and sales as individual DLC, since they're likely bigger names to the general public than relatively obscure Nintendo characters.

...but then again, they're doing a damned Piranha Plant as their bonus DLC character, so who the heck knows at this point? :smallsigh:

[Rising Phoenix]

snip


Marketing alone is the reason why I think that FE three house rep is a given, given also that FE is one nitendos big IPs now.

[deuterio12]

I actually don't think it will be after this direct. Remember how Sakurai said that the reason Rex wasn't made playable but instead became a Mii Costume is because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 wasn't announced until after the roster was decided? I'd have to assume that means the DLC roster too, or else they'd make him a DLC character. In which case there's no way that Fire Emblem: Three Houses didn't miss any chance it had to be considered for the DLC lineup too.

Thing is, Fire Emblem is actually a Nintendo IP while XC2 isn't, so Sakurai would've known about Three Houses characters from their earliest design stages (meaning months/years before the public heard anything), while Rex would've been mostly an unknown until much later.

Heck, we already had Roy coming out in super smash brothers before his own actual game was released! So clearly they can plan quite ahead when working with their own IPs.

[darkdragoon]

Thing is, Fire Emblem is actually a Nintendo IP while XC2 isn't, so Sakurai would've known about Three Houses characters from their earliest design stages (meaning months/years before the public heard anything), while Rex would've been mostly an unknown until much later.

Heck, we already had Roy coming out in super smash brothers before his own actual game was released! So clearly they can plan quite ahead when working with their own IPs.

This is not even wrong.

Monolith Soft is a wholly owned subsidiary. In fact, the "Xenoblade Chronicles" names comes from the late Satoru Iwata.

[deuterio12]

That's a cute way of saying "company that can break away as soon as things go sour as they already did with Namco and are also physically quite away from anything owned by Nintendo." Monolith Soft ain't gonna share any early drafts of anything with Nintendo, never know when they may want to jump ship again.

While Intelligent Systems has both a much older and more trusted record of working with Nintendo, including having even moved their stuff near to Nintendo Headquarters in Japan so Sakurai can do stuff like personally drop by to check things during lunch (or the other way around). That alone makes all the difference.

[Magic_Hat]

Possibly a stupid question so pardon the ignorance: what's a spirit?

[GloatingSwine]

Possibly a stupid question so pardon the ignorance: what's a spirit?

Equippable buff items for the World of Light mode that let you power up characters. Themed after things from represented or related series.

You can do all sorts of things to get new ones, feed them combine them and power them up.


That's a cute way of saying "company that can break away as soon as things go sour as they already did with Namco and are also physically quite away from anything owned by Nintendo." Monolith Soft ain't gonna share any early drafts of anything with Nintendo, never know when they may want to jump ship again.

They can break away if they can find someone to buy the majority of their shares, which Nintendo own 80% of.

And yes, they do closely collaborate with Nintendo, even on games they aren't otherwise directly involved in (they had a hand in Breath of the Wild's world design).

[DiscipleofBob]

If we assume that characters who are stuck as assist trophies or spirits aren’t going to be DLC characters (I know there’s nothing that says the two are mutually exclusive, but I’m just trying to narrow down possibilities for guesses), I think Geno might still have a chance. I didn’t see him in any of the Direct footage, and he made it as a DLC Mii Outfit last game (that I have yet to see this game), so it’s not like he’s too obscure to be referenced. And he’s one of the consistent headliners in the polls.

I also assume any DLC characters will be legit new and not echo fighters and older than at least Xenoblade Chronicles 2 just based on what Sakurai said in the Direct. Who else might fit that criteria?

Geno’s been kind of my one wishlist character, so maybe I’m just holding onto false hope. Especially since with Incineroar I’m assuming Decidueye is probably no longer a real possibility.

[Rodin]

My initial thought on Piranha Plant after reading this thread: Meh.

My thought after watching the video: SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

The moveset looks truly distinct and exciting, and it's definitely a way to break away from the "dude that does punches and kicks" vs. "dude that uses swords". I was planning on pre-ordering anyway, but this pretty much seals it.

I'm also very excited for the World of Light mode. Subspace Emissary was always my favorite part of Brawl, and this looks to be just as big and in-depth. The Spirits look very cool, kind of like the Event mode from previous games but themed into what you unlock for beating it. Fighting "Bullet Bill" as a speedy character that runs around and spams Bullet Bills at you is a neat idea, and several of the others they highlighted looked just as good.

I'm hyped for this game in a way I really wasn't for Smash 4 - there it was mostly "ooh, Smash on mobile!". This time, it looks like they've actually put in the work to flesh out both the single-player and multi-player content to make it a massive game, and the fact that I never bought any DLC for Smash 4 means that a lot of the existing characters will be new for me.

I also really like that your Global Smash ranking is separated out by character - as a super casual player who doesn't really have a main, it's nice to get different ranked matches depending on whether you have any talent with said character. The ability to set proper match settings will also be nice.

[Flying Turtle]

That's a cute way of saying "company that can break away as soon as things go sour as they already did with Namco and are also physically quite away from anything owned by Nintendo." Monolith Soft ain't gonna share any early drafts of anything with Nintendo, never know when they may want to jump ship again.

While Intelligent Systems has both a much older and more trusted record of working with Nintendo, including having even moved their stuff near to Nintendo Headquarters in Japan so Sakurai can do stuff like personally drop by to check things during lunch (or the other way around). That alone makes all the difference.

Not really. Monolith Soft didn't break away from Namco, Nintendo bought a majority of Monolith Soft's shares from Namco. Granted they did so with Monolith Soft's blessing but the fact remains that Monolith Soft can't just leave if the get sick of Nintendo. They are a part of Nintendo and to leave they would need to get Nintendo to sell their shares, either to Monolith Soft themselves or another company. Them not telling Nintendo what they're working on would be like Pixar refusing to tell Disney what they're working on. Also Monolith's Kyoto branch has worked pretty closely with Nintendo EAD on quite a few projects, most notably Breath of the Wild where their influence is quite clear.

[Zevox]

Possibly a stupid question so pardon the ignorance: what's a spirit?
Character artwork with stats attached, basically. Think the Stickers from Brawl's Subspace Emissary, except, from the look of things, a lot more of them and with more in-depth mechanics to it. Plus they're functioning as a replacement for trophies as a general collectible.


Marketing alone is the reason why I think that FE three house rep is a given, given also that FE is one nitendos big IPs now.
Right, but my point was that given what they said about Rex, I don't think marketing will get a character into the DLC lineup this time around, just because of how long the roster has apparently been planned.


Thing is, Fire Emblem is actually a Nintendo IP while XC2 isn't, so Sakurai would've known about Three Houses characters from their earliest design stages (meaning months/years before the public heard anything), while Rex would've been mostly an unknown until much later.
Admittedly I don't know for sure how close the relationship of Xenoblade Chronicles' developer to Nintendo is, but given nobody has ever referred to Shulk as a third-party character in Smash I'd assume it to be about the same as Fire Emblem's, since that's a second-party series.

In any case, Xenoblade Chronicles 2's announcement to the public was back in January 2017, so we're talking about a lineup decided at least a couple of years ago. Maybe Three Houses was in development by then, since Fates had come out in 2016, but maybe not since Echoes and FE Warriors were also things Intelligent Systems would have on their plates at the time, and even if it was it would presumably be very early stages. With XC2 being developed substantially earlier I would definitely expect that it would be the one of the two more likely to have been known to the Smash team first.


If we assume that characters who are stuck as assist trophies or spirits aren’t going to be DLC characters (I know there’s nothing that says the two are mutually exclusive, but I’m just trying to narrow down possibilities for guesses), I think Geno might still have a chance. I didn’t see him in any of the Direct footage, and he made it as a DLC Mii Outfit last game (that I have yet to see this game), so it’s not like he’s too obscure to be referenced. And he’s one of the consistent headliners in the polls.

I also assume any DLC characters will be legit new and not echo fighters and older than at least Xenoblade Chronicles 2 just based on what Sakurai said in the Direct. Who else might fit that criteria?

Geno’s been kind of my one wishlist character, so maybe I’m just holding onto false hope. Especially since with Incineroar I’m assuming Decidueye is probably no longer a real possibility.
Well, things that we know: DLC characters will not be echoes, because they specifically said as much in the Direct. Also, Assist Trophies definitely won't be DLC - they made it very explicit back when those were first added in Brawl that characters would not be both an Assist Trophy and playable, and we've never been given any reason to believe that's changed.

Spirits on the other hand probably aren't excluded, since they're more like trophies or stickers. Mewtwo having a trophy in Smash 4 on launch didn't stop him from being the first DLC character the game got. ...also, just glancing back at the Direct just now to see if there were any Spirits of playable characters, I quickly spotted one of the male Wii Fit Trainer (10 minutes and 4 seconds), so yeah, there you go. (Also, random thing I noticed doing that: there's a Spirit for Alexandra Roivas, from Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem [15 minutes and 7 seconds]. Holy cow - I'm pretty sure she's 3rd party, and that is a game that barely anyone even talks about anymore. Very surprised they bothered to get the rights to pull her into this.)

As for Geno, I think we'll actually have a good idea of his likely fate as soon as the game comes out, specifically because of that Mii Fighter costume you mentioned. Is it still in? If not, it was probably removed for a reason, which may be that he's planned to be DLC. If it is, the question becomes whether the other characters who had costumes but are now playable, like Chrom, still have their costumes in. If not, Geno probably won't be DLC. (Obviously if the other costumes are still there too we can't make any assumptions since they're just leaving them all in for the heck of it, but I think that's the least likely outcome.)

[deuterio12]

(Also, random thing I noticed doing that: there's a Spirit for Alexandra Roivas, from Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem [15 minutes and 7 seconds]. Holy cow - I'm pretty sure she's 3rd party, and that is a game that barely anyone even talks about anymore. Very surprised they bothered to get the rights to pull her into this.)


That's nothing compared to there being a spirit for Aisya from 3rd party ASH:_Archaic_Sealed_Heat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat) , a Japan-only release for the DS that I had no idea it even existed before. At least Eternal Darkness got a western release and is relatively well known.

Although at this point SSB is so popular that if Nintendo asks to use somebody else's game rights to use their characters, they'll probably just say "yes thank you".

[Zevox]

That's nothing compared to there being a spirit for Aisya from 3rd party ASH:_Archaic_Sealed_Heat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat) , a Japan-only release for the DS that I had no idea it even existed before. At least Eternal Darkness got a western release and is relatively well known.

Although at this point SSB is so popular that if Nintendo asks to use somebody else's game rights to use their characters, they'll probably just say "yes thank you".
Wow, yeah. Haven't heard of that one either - and I only even know the developer from Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey. Did not even notice this character.

And granted, probably true by and large. Aside from maybe Sony and Microsoft, who wouldn't want their characters on a Nintendo-exclusive game, most would probably see it as great advertising. Still surprising though that Nintendo themselves would see it as worth their time to get the rights to such obscure things, especially to just use them in as minor a way as spirits.

[Qwertystop]

Character artwork with stats attached, basically. Think the Stickers from Brawl's Subspace Emissary, except, from the look of things, a lot more of them and with more in-depth mechanics to it. Plus they're functioning as a replacement for trophies as a general collectible.


As for Geno, I think we'll actually have a good idea of his likely fate as soon as the game comes out, specifically because of that Mii Fighter costume you mentioned. Is it still in? If not, it was probably removed for a reason, which may be that he's planned to be DLC. If it is, the question becomes whether the other characters who had costumes but are now playable, like Chrom, still have their costumes in. If not, Geno probably won't be DLC. (Obviously if the other costumes are still there too we can't make any assumptions since they're just leaving them all in for the heck of it, but I think that's the least likely outcome.)

The mechanics for Spirits are a bit closer to Equipment from Smash 4 than Stickers – the ability to train and dispose of them indicates that there's more than one possible stat-set for a given character.

And there were a lot of stickers, and they'd be a lot lower-effort to develop than Spirits (because each Spirit comes with an event match, where stickers were random collectibles); I'm not sure that there's more spirits than there were stickers.

The Direct showed Inkling costumes for Mii Gunners. Presence or absence of a Geno costume tells us nothing.

[Zevox]

The mechanics for Spirits are a bit closer to Equipment from Smash 4 than Stickers – the ability to train and dispose of them indicates that there's more than one possible stat-set for a given character.

And there were a lot of stickers, and they'd be a lot lower-effort to develop than Spirits (because each Spirit comes with an event match, where stickers were random collectibles); I'm not sure that there's more spirits than there were stickers.
I get the impression that the event match spirits are just the "primary" spirits, not all of them. Remember that you can also summon them with those cores from leveling up other spirits.


The Direct showed Inkling costumes for Mii Gunners. Presence or absence of a Geno costume tells us nothing.
The direct showed the "Splatoon 2" set specifically, not the same one that was in Smash 4 and is now the playable Inkling design.

[Qwertystop]

I get the impression that the event match spirits are just the "primary" spirits, not all of them. Remember that you can also summon them with those cores from leveling up other spirits.


The direct showed the "Splatoon 2" set specifically, not the same one that was in Smash 4 and is now the playable Inkling design.

Did it look significantly different? I haven't done a direct comparison, but the Inkling's designs didn't particularly change from one Splatoon to the other – new hairstyles and clothes and weapons, but I'm pretty sure all the old hairstyles, most of the weapons, and at least the plainer clothes stuck around.

[deuterio12]

Still surprising though that Nintendo themselves would see it as worth their time to get the rights to such obscure things, especially to just use them in as minor a way as spirits.

Would be fascinating to know how things went behind the scenes yes.


I get the impression that the event match spirits are just the "primary" spirits, not all of them. Remember that you can also summon them with those cores from leveling up other spirits.

Aisya is an event match spirit possessing Lucina. If they bothered to make an event match for such an obscure one-shot character, I strongly believe every spirit will have their event match too.

[Mando Knight]

Did it look significantly different? I haven't done a direct comparison, but the Inkling's designs didn't particularly change from one Splatoon to the other – new hairstyles and clothes and weapons, but I'm pretty sure all the old hairstyles, most of the weapons, and at least the plainer clothes stuck around.

The "Splatoon 2" set is specifically a pair of outfit designs not used by any of the 8 Inkling alts and have a visually distinct color palette as well.

[Zevox]

Did it look significantly different? I haven't done a direct comparison, but the Inkling's designs didn't particularly change from one Splatoon to the other – new hairstyles and clothes and weapons, but I'm pretty sure all the old hairstyles, most of the weapons, and at least the plainer clothes stuck around.
It did to me at least. A little googling gets me this for the Smash 4 costume:

https://nintendotoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/splatoon-smash-costume-640x360.jpg

A screenshot of the new one doesn't seem to be readily findable via google yet, but here's a link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fccgHnBQ0YM&t=1765s) to where it shows up in the direct. They even initially show up fighting the actual Inklings, which helps make for convenient comparison too. Definitely seem rather different to my eyes.


Aisya is an event match spirit possessing Lucina. If they bothered to make an event match for such an obscure one-shot character, I strongly believe every spirit will have their event match too.
Huh. Weird, but what I meant by "primary" spirits isn't in how major the character/franchise is, but in how they work mechanically - they outlined that the "primary" ones are the ones that provide the most direct stat boost and get equipped to the characters, while "support" spirits get equipped to the primary spirits and provide miscellaneous bonuses, such as starting with certain items, or immunity to some things (there was a Medli spirit that offered immunity to wind, not sure whether that means an elemental attack type or a stage hazard).

I don't know, they never explicitly said that it was only the primary spirits getting those events, but they also never said it was all of them. Given how many there seemed to be, I'd be surprised if it was all of them, but if it is, cool I guess.

[Qwertystop]

It did to me at least. A little googling gets me this for the Smash 4 costume:

https://nintendotoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/splatoon-smash-costume-640x360.jpg

A screenshot of the new one doesn't seem to be readily findable via google yet, but here's a link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fccgHnBQ0YM&t=1765s) to where it shows up in the direct. They even initially show up fighting the actual Inklings, which helps make for convenient comparison too. Definitely seem rather different to my eyes.


Huh. Weird, but what I meant by "primary" spirits isn't in how major the character/franchise is, but in how they work mechanically - they outlined that the "primary" ones are the ones that provide the most direct stat boost and get equipped to the characters, while "support" spirits get equipped to the primary spirits and provide miscellaneous bonuses, such as starting with certain items, or immunity to some things (there was a Medli spirit that offered immunity to wind, not sure whether that means an elemental attack type or a stage hazard).

I don't know, they never explicitly said that it was only the primary spirits getting those events, but they also never said it was all of them. Given how many there seemed to be, I'd be surprised if it was all of them, but if it is, cool I guess.

Fair, that is pretty distinct. My major focus was the gun and ink-tank.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Yiga clan is from Zelda Breath of the Wild.

Anyway, here's to hoping that Alexandra Roivas becomes one of those DLC characters. Although I wouldn't bet on it.

Piranha Plant? I am pleased. Duck Hunt has been topped in sheer wtf-ness.

[DaOldeWolf]

If anyone is interested. Here is a video with all costumes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDSuAY3qiQg

Enjoy!

[Zevox]

If anyone is interested. Here is a video with all costumes:
Slightly annoyingly, some of the poses the characters are in make it hard to tell how their alternate color schemes look in those previews. Chrom, for instance - you can most clearly see his head and bare right arm, while most of the details of his clothes are obscured by the little icons that tell you which color scheme of the bunch you're on. Or Ike, where you can mostly just see the color change of his scarf and the different way his shoulders look in his Path of Radiance versus Radiant Dawn outfits, but can't see the color scheme of the majority of his outfit at all. Or King Dedede, whose pose somehow manages to show off only tiny slivers of the main, outside portion of his robe.

Also, minor point of disappointment: red Robin is a blonde rather than a redhead now :smallfrown: . That was my favorite Robin alt...

[DaOldeWolf]

Slightly annoyingly, some of the poses the characters are in make it hard to tell how their alternate color schemes look in those previews. Chrom, for instance - you can most clearly see his head and bare right arm, while most of the details of his clothes are obscured by the little icons that tell you which color scheme of the bunch you're on. Or Ike, where you can mostly just see the color change of his scarf and the different way his shoulders look in his Path of Radiance versus Radiant Dawn outfits, but can't see the color scheme of the majority of his outfit at all. Or King Dedede, whose pose somehow manages to show off only tiny slivers of the main, outside portion of his robe.

Also, minor point of disappointment: red Robin is a blonde rather than a redhead now :smallfrown: . That was my favorite Robin alt...

Fire Flower Mario and Black Yoshi have also been removed. Ridley lost two of the costumes from the demo. Mac lost half of his costumes too.

There have also been changes to Luigi´s Waluigi costume and overalls Wario.

[Zevox]

Interesting article (http://www.siliconera.com/2018/11/04/sakurai-elaborates-on-smash-ultimates-singleplayer-modes-at-nintendo-live-2018/) about Sakurai showing off some more details of the game's single-player modes. Apparently they're doing heavily-themed Classic modes for each character. My favorite example being what they apparently did for Ryu (and I'd presume Ken): every fight that he has will be a one-on-one stamina mode match with items off and on omega (Final Destination) stages, and the opponents will be Ken plus a bunch who work as stand-ins for Street Fighter characters, including Zero Suit Samus standing in for Chun-Li and from the sounds of it Incineroar standing in for Zangief. That's actually a very cool touch, and I wish they'd shown it off during the direct at some point. Makes me curious what we might see for, say, the Fire Emblem characters, or oddballs like Mr. Game & Watch.

There's also some stuff about Spirits mode, though little that wasn't in the direct. Probably the biggest part there is confirmation that there are spirits for the playable characters, but they're just collectables with descriptions you can look at (ala trophies of old), not equippable like other spirits.

[chainer1216]

I wish they'd shown it off during the direct at some point.

They did a little bit, i remember them showing King K Rool standing in for a Zelda: Skyward Sword boss.

[Resileaf]

Can this game release already?! I can't wait, it looks so good!

[aimlessPolymath]

I needed to see the lyrics to the Spirits of Light song before I realized that "a pastel unnamed" was "a past still unnamed". I kept wondering why Kirby didn't have a name for some reason.

[Zevox]

They did a little bit, i remember them showing King K Rool standing in for a Zelda: Skyward Sword boss.
That was a Spirit Battle, not Classic Mode. They didn't talk about Classic Mode at all in the direct.


Can this game release already?! I can't wait, it looks so good!
I know the feeling. Just a month to go. I've started playing Mario Odyssey in the meantime - want to get that in before Smash so I have some familiarity with some of the new Mario stuff that's in Ultimate, like the New Donk City stage.

[chainer1216]

Im also waiting impatiently for the games release, i picked up the smash ultimate switch bundle last week and now its just starring at me from the entertainment center, mocking me with its uselessness until next month.

[Bartmanhomer]

How many fighters are in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate?

[Zevox]

How many fighters are in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate?
Playable characters? Depends on how you count them.

Officially, at launch, it's 74, 76 if you count Pokémon Trainer as 3 (which you probably should, since he's Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard in one). Then there will be 6 more as DLC, starting with Pirranah Plant sometime within a couple of months of launch, to bring the final total to 80/82.

If you don't count Echo characters, that number goes down by 7 (Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus, Richter, Ken). If you don't count characters that probably should be considered Echoes but aren't, that's another 3-4 down (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, maybe Roy). And depending on your view of partial clones you might knock off some others, but personally I'm not even going to get into trying to count those since I don't remotely subscribe to that view at this point.

In any case though, quite a lot at the end of the day. More than any other fighting game I know of, that's for sure, even if you don't count the Echoes. (I think the largest roster on a non-Smash fighting game that I'm aware of is Marvel vs Capcom 2, at 56, and that game was basically a giant asset dump of a lot of Capcom's earlier work.)

[huttj509]

I needed to see the lyrics to the Spirits of Light song before I realized that "a pastel unnamed" was "a past still unnamed". I kept wondering why Kirby didn't have a name for some reason.

Why should I bear this Torchic in the cold of the night? I mean, fire pokemon, but still.

[DaOldeWolf]

Playable characters? Depends on how you count them.

Officially, at launch, it's 74, 76 if you count Pokémon Trainer as 3 (which you probably should, since he's Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard in one). Then there will be 6 more as DLC, starting with Pirranah Plant sometime within a couple of months of launch, to bring the final total to 80/82.

If you don't count Echo characters, that number goes down by 7 (Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus, Richter, Ken). If you don't count characters that probably should be considered Echoes but aren't, that's another 3-4 down (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, maybe Roy). And depending on your view of partial clones you might knock off some others, but personally I'm not even going to get into trying to count those since I don't remotely subscribe to that view at this point.

In any case though, quite a lot at the end of the day. More than any other fighting game I know of, that's for sure, even if you don't count the Echoes. (I think the largest roster on a non-Smash fighting game that I'm aware of is Marvel vs Capcom 2, at 56, and that game was basically a giant asset dump of a lot of Capcom's earlier work.)

The only game I can think of is Dragon Ball Budokai Tenkaichi 3 with over 150 characters though it is important to note that there are lots of Gokus and Vegetas.

Still, I would consider smash to have a pretty great number of characters.
Still

[Red Fel]

In any case though, quite a lot at the end of the day. More than any other fighting game I know of, that's for sure, even if you don't count the Echoes. (I think the largest roster on a non-Smash fighting game that I'm aware of is Marvel vs Capcom 2, at 56, and that game was basically a giant asset dump of a lot of Capcom's earlier work.)

To be fair, once your cast surpasses a certain limit, it's hard to think of it as a proper fighting game. It's a similar problem to DBZ: Tenkaichi Budokai 3 - the game is less a fighting game and more a sandbox full of your favorite toys. (To be fair, smashing your toys together has been Smash Bros.' imagery since the beginning.)

The reasoning is that a proper fighting game needs tuning and balance, with each fighter having particular pros and cons. The more fighters you throw in, the more you see repeats (or echoes), gag characters, characters who are objectively better or objectively worse, and basically just throw balance out almost completely.

Consider. The original Smash Bros. had a dozen characters. Twelve. Melee had 25, roughly twice that. Melee remains Nintendo's longest-running esports title - that is, it's the one people use for tournaments. That's notwithstanding the fact that, since 2008, we've also had Brawl, and since 2014, the WiiU version. One possible reason is that Brawl has roughly three times as many characters as the original, and WiiU even more than that.

Admittedly, another reason is that Melee had tighter mechanics, faster gameplay, and less broken spammable moves. But again, a lot of those flaws in Brawl become inevitable when your cast of characters becomes overly massive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm stoked to play Ultimate. It will be a fantastic toy chest full of entertaining gameplay options. But it will be absolute chaos. A fun explosion of activity, not a tight fighting game. I'm okay with that. But I'm not pretending it's going to be something it isn't.

[Resileaf]

Admittedly, another reason is that Melee had tighter mechanics, faster gameplay, and less broken spammable moves.


Also the exploits. Don't forget the exploits.

[Sholos]

Also the exploits. Don't forget the exploits.

Final Destination, no items, Fox only.

[Zevox]

The only game I can think of is Dragon Ball Budokai Tenkaichi 3 with over 150 characters though it is important to note that there are lots of Gokus and Vegetas.
Sheesh, I'd imagine there must be. Dragon Ball FighterZ's roster is only at 32, and it already feels like everybody important is accounted for (aside from maybe some Super characters, I'm not familiar with that, but pretty sure it didn't exist when Budokai Tenkaichi 3 was made), plus there's already three versions each of Goku and Vegeta.

Plus I'd wager there's probably a ton of clones padding out the game, no? I can't imagine it being remotely feasible for a development team to make that many characters that were all unique.


To be fair, once your cast surpasses a certain limit, it's hard to think of it as a proper fighting game.
No, no it isn't. Because the genre is not defined by roster size or how well balanced a game is. That's just utter nonsense.


Final Destination, no items, Fox only.
The only one of those that has ever been accurately reflective of competitive Smash is "no items," FYI.

[tyckspoon]

The only one of those that has ever been accurately reflective of competitive Smash is "no items," FYI.

..ok, Falco and Sheikah were also permissible. And competitive players did tend to prefer what other players would consider to be 'boring' stages, since that meant you weren't going to lose a stock to something that wasn't your own misplay or get semi-infinite combo'd by a corner trap in a stage with a lot of vertical edges.

[Zevox]

..ok, Falco and Sheikah were also permissible. And competitive players did tend to prefer what other players would consider to be 'boring' stages, since that meant you weren't going to lose a stock to something that wasn't your own misplay or get semi-infinite combo'd by a corner trap in a stage with a lot of vertical edges.
Even if we're looking only at Melee, there's also Marth and Peach who are among the top-tier characters, and a number of others that are viable - one of the five "gods" of competitive Melee, who was Evo Champion just last year, is a Jigglypuff player, for instance. And just off the top of my head I've also seen Pikachu, Young Link, the Ice Climbers, and Doctor Mario in Evo Top 8s over the years. You're likely never going to see low tier characters like Ganondorf or Mewtwo (again, going by Melee - though Ganondorf is low tier in every game), but you can absolutely see a variety of characters played.

Though yes, of course competitive play favors stages that are better for making the competition about the players. Final Destination isn't even the preferred "neutral" stage though - Battlefield or Fountain of Dreams tend to be.

[Mando Knight]

since that meant you weren't going to lose a stock to something that wasn't your own misplay or get semi-infinite combo'd by a corner trap in a stage with a lot of vertical edges.

Or that the faster opponent can't gain a marginal advantage and then run away for the rest of the time limit (which is one of the many reasons that most large stages are banned, even if they are otherwise boring).

[deuterio12]

Even if we're looking only at Melee, there's also Marth and Peach who are among the top-tier characters, and a number of others that are viable - one of the five "gods" of competitive Melee, who was Evo Champion just last year, is a Jigglypuff player, for instance. And just off the top of my head I've also seen Pikachu, Young Link, the Ice Climbers, and Doctor Mario in Evo Top 8s over the years. You're likely never going to see low tier characters like Ganondorf or Mewtwo (again, going by Melee - though Ganondorf is low tier in every game), but you can absolutely see a variety of characters played.

That's only because making a living out of playing Melee is virtually impossible, so after your five "gods", you'll basically only get casuals that'll play whatever they feel like, and even then if they're not playing something from the top they're just not gonna make it to top 8.

But if there was more money in Melee like an actual esports, then you can bet top 8s being all FoxFalcoFoxSheikFoxFoxFox.

[Zevox]

That's only because making a living out of playing Melee is virtually impossible, so after your five "gods", you'll basically only get casuals that'll play whatever they feel like, and even then if they're not playing something from the top they're just not gonna make it to top 8.

But if there was more money in Melee like an actual esports, then you can bet top 8s being all FoxFalcoFoxSheikFoxFoxFox.
Even from my fairly cursory looks at competitive Melee I know for a fact that's not true, because I have seen discussions of whether other players were getting good enough that they should be included among the "gods" of the game. And seriously, this is a game that still gets over 1300 players showing up to compete at Evo, more than many newer titles get - it's definitely not lacking a vibrant competitive scene.

And again, seriously, even among the five "gods" it's not just those three characters - one of them literally only plays Jigglypuff, and a quick google search informs me that others also play Marth and Peach in addition to the three you listed, while only one of them exclusively plays Fox and Falco.

Oh, and that Young Link I mentioned seeing in Evo top 8? IIRC that was one of those "gods" using him as a counterpick to the Jigglypuff player. Because apparently while Young Link is not good overall, he does have a good matchup with Jigglypuff specifically.

[DaOldeWolf]

Speaking of tiers and potential Zelda, Ganondorf and Jigglypuff may finally not be the games´worst characters after being so for two straight games.

There have been lots of changes from characters acquiring new moves to moves receiving a complete overhaul to how they work. This might be the hypest smash yet.

[Zevox]

True. I don't know how much hope I'd have for Zelda and Ganondorf getting better, since they've never been good, Ganondorf just got new smash attacks, and other than her new look changing her height I haven't heard of any major changes to Zelda, but it's great to see Ganondorf finally getting some changes to move him away from Captain Falcon's moveset, and there were some good-sounding general mechanic changes announced back at E3, like rolls having less invincibility if you use them repeatedly.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how everything feels in the new game, and trying out everyone to find out who I'll wind up maining this time. I'm hoping for some improvements to Palutena in particular - the change to consolidate her counter and reflect into one move and give her the explosion side special is a good start, but her ground normals need some serious help too.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Don't get me wrong, I'm stoked to play Ultimate. It will be a fantastic toy chest full of entertaining gameplay options. But it will be absolute chaos. A fun explosion of activity, not a tight fighting game. I'm okay with that. But I'm not pretending it's going to be something it isn't.
Ah, if only more people shared that viewpoint. Then I might be able to enjoy a multiplayer match once in a while.

[Rodin]

True. I don't know how much hope I'd have for Zelda and Ganondorf getting better, since they've never been good, Ganondorf just got new smash attacks, and other than her new look changing her height I haven't heard of any major changes to Zelda, but it's great to see Ganondorf finally getting some changes to move him away from Captain Falcon's moveset, and there were some good-sounding general mechanic changes announced back at E3, like rolls having less invincibility if you use them repeatedly.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how everything feels in the new game, and trying out everyone to find out who I'll wind up maining this time. I'm hoping for some improvements to Palutena in particular - the change to consolidate her counter and reflect into one move and give her the explosion side special is a good start, but her ground normals need some serious help too.

At one of the invitationals (the highlights came up in my Youtube feed) there was a pro player that brought Zelda - she's apparently had lots of little tweaks to make her more competitive. For example, Dini's Fire no longer sends her into freefall.

Personally, I've always taken the "Fox only, Final Destination, no items" meme to be more a criticism of casual players than the actual competitive scene - because I did know people who did exactly this. They only ever played Fox, they always picked FD for their stage, and insisted on no items. It's the same mentality as newbie chess players that rely heavily on their queen, then surrender the instant you take it. Better players realize the value of their other pieces, and competitive level players are at a whole different level of strategy. Everybody playing either Fox or Sheik was definitely a problem in my playing community, and the insistence on Final Destination (or maybe Battlefield) drove me bonkers.

I'm hopeful that the new ability to choose your settings and get matches that are similar will let me play 1v1 matches on actual interesting stages now. The crazy restriction between the two extremes of "unbridled 4-man chaos" and "1v1, no items, Final Destination only" was a huge sticking point with me in the last game and likely why I didn't play it near as much as any of the other games in the series.

[Zevox]

At one of the invitationals (the highlights came up in my Youtube feed) there was a pro player that brought Zelda - she's apparently had lots of little tweaks to make her more competitive. For example, Dini's Fire no longer sends her into freefall.
Oh, interesting. That'd definitely be a decent help to her - always sucked before to try harassing people with that, only to wind up left vulnerable for it. Or to forget it does that and try blasting someone while recovering, only to die for it...


Personally, I've always taken the "Fox only, Final Destination, no items" meme to be more a criticism of casual players than the actual competitive scene - because I did know people who did exactly this. They only ever played Fox, they always picked FD for their stage, and insisted on no items. It's the same mentality as newbie chess players that rely heavily on their queen, then surrender the instant you take it. Better players realize the value of their other pieces, and competitive level players are at a whole different level of strategy. Everybody playing either Fox or Sheik was definitely a problem in my playing community, and the insistence on Final Destination (or maybe Battlefield) drove me bonkers.
Huh. I don't get the impression that's the intended use of when most people say it, but yeah, it probably is more appropriate for a situation like that. I mean, I can remember a day when I assumed that Final Destination was the "fairest" stage in Melee, and later being surprised to see pro players saying that it was actually Battlefield, so I could certainly see some people with little knowledge of competitive Smash making assumptions and getting like that, even though I never directly experienced it myself.


I'm hopeful that the new ability to choose your settings and get matches that are similar will let me play 1v1 matches on actual interesting stages now. The crazy restriction between the two extremes of "unbridled 4-man chaos" and "1v1, no items, Final Destination only" was a huge sticking point with me in the last game and likely why I didn't play it near as much as any of the other games in the series.
Agreed. While I was quite happy to play For Glory for a fair while in Smash 4 - it was certainly a huge step up from Brawl's awful online that wasn't even worth playing except with people on your friends list, and even then you had to hope it didn't lag too bad - I was definitely wishing for the chance to play a better variety of stages after a while. The ability to turn stage hazards off is going to be a godsend in this game I think, and the fact that that's one of your options for stage preferences online looks wonderful to me. I mean, my favorite stage in Smash history is Delphino Plaza: a relatively calm stage with no real hazards to speak of, but you get dropped off in various places over the course of the match to keep things fresh. I love that, and it'll be nice to see stages like that while playing random people online at last without needing to play with all the crazy nonsense of a free-for-all with items on, or risk ending up on a stage I'll hate like Wario Ware with all its mini-game hazards.

[PhantomFox]

https://woodenplankstudios.com/comics/you-really-are-a-heel/
.
I really wish this was canon... it's just too hilarious

[DaOldeWolf]

True. I don't know how much hope I'd have for Zelda and Ganondorf getting better, since they've never been good, Ganondorf just got new smash attacks, and other than her new look changing her height I haven't heard of any major changes to Zelda, but it's great to see Ganondorf finally getting some changes to move him away from Captain Falcon's moveset, and there were some good-sounding general mechanic changes announced back at E3, like rolls having less invincibility if you use them repeatedly.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how everything feels in the new game, and trying out everyone to find out who I'll wind up maining this time. I'm hoping for some improvements to Palutena in particular - the change to consolidate her counter and reflect into one move and give her the explosion side special is a good start, but her ground normals need some serious help too.

Another big change for Zelda is that the armor she summons to attack with can be ordered to attack without waiting to be fully charged (Zelda just needs to press down b again). Zelda doesnt even need to stay in place, she can press down b once and do her own thing while the armor builds up and decide when it attacks.

Ganondorf has:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/420/735/f92.jpg

All of jigglypuff aerials have been buffed, be it damage, knockback or landing lag. Also, jigglypuff can cancel the waking up animation from rest.

[Dienekes]

Another big change for Zelda is that the armor she summons to attack with can be ordered to attack without waiting to be fully charged (Zelda just needs to press down b again). Zelda doesnt even need to stay in place, she can press down b once and do her own thing while the armor builds up and decide when it attacks.

Ganondorf has:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/420/735/f92.jpg

All of jigglypuff aerials have been buffed, be it damage, knockback or landing lag. Also, jigglypuff can cancel the waking up animation from rest.

Honestly, I'm probably going to miss the loss of Ganondorf's current up-smash more. Safe on block, little to no end lag, and can kill a heavy somewhere in the 75% range. The new sword one seems pretty weak by comparison. Though probably easier to use, since it's an arc.

[Zevox]

Another big change for Zelda is that the armor she summons to attack with can be ordered to attack without waiting to be fully charged (Zelda just needs to press down b again). Zelda doesnt even need to stay in place, she can press down b once and do her own thing while the armor builds up and decide when it attacks.

Ganondorf has:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/420/735/f92.jpg

All of jigglypuff aerials have been buffed, be it damage, knockback or landing lag. Also, jigglypuff can cancel the waking up animation from rest.
Have to admit, I played so little Zelda in Smash 4 that I didn't even know that some of that was new. I assumed the armor could already be released without the full charge. Crazy that it couldn't. Being able to set it like that is a very cool buff though, that should turn it into a great zoning tool.

Ganondorf, well, stuff getting faster is always good. I do wonder whether they'll have done enough of that to matter, though. After all, his whole design is to be one of the slow but strong brute types, so I'm guessing there's only so much of that they'll do with him. We'll see though. (Also, we can escape the suicide move now? Sweet. Those feel awful when they actually work.)

And I kind of know nothing about Jigglypuff, aside from what I've seen Hungrybox do at Evo, which is probably mostly inapplicable in the later games considering she went from high tier in Melee to routinely being regarded as one of the worst in Brawl and 4. So, glad she's getting some help I guess, but hard for me guess how much it'll mean.

[Mando Knight]

I assumed the armor could already be released without the full charge. Crazy that it couldn't. Being able to set it like that is a very cool buff though, that should turn it into a great zoning tool.

It most definitely can, though the attack is shorter-ranged and less powerful at lower charges.

[PhantomFox]

So.... 5 DLC slots. Who are you rooting for? Name your Top 5!
Mine, in no particular order...

1) Geno
2) Banjo Kazooie
3) Shantae
4) Rayman
5) Dixie Kong

[Zevox]

Banjo and Kazooie are the only ones I can think of that I'd want to see playable who aren't already either playable or banished to assist trophy limbo. And sadly I think they're a pipe dream that will never actually happen.

[Rising Phoenix]

With regards to dlc, these are not characters that I would wanna see, but ones would be interesting if they did make it in.

Tracer from overwatch- Wouldn't be too surprising if she did appear if OW got released on the switch. Though admittedly I don't know of any Blizz characters appearing in third party games before. Shrug.

Kefka/Sephiroth/Noct from FF. Coz more FF are very plausible.

Monster Hunter- from monster hunter. We have rathalos...it'd make sense if we got them.

I've already discussed FE and I would not be surprised if they got another slot...

And that's about it.

[DaOldeWolf]

Well, to bring forth the material we have for Smash DLC speculation:

According to leaker Vergeben (who has been right about charaters in the game so far), there is a Square Enix character and while he doesnt confirm a character so far, he has mentioned that there is minecraft content of some sort.

We also have articles that said that Bethesda and Nintendo reunited to discuss about smash.

Another leaker by the name Hiitagi (who leaked the new Samurai Showdown) said that he has Heard about Steve from Minecraft and some discussions about the inclusión the possibility of a Granblue Fantasy character. Take all of this with a grain of salt though.

[Zevox]

Well, to bring forth the material we have for Smash DLC speculation:

According to leaker Vergeben (who has been right about charaters in the game so far), there is a Square Enix character and while he doesnt confirm a character so far, he has mentioned that there is minecraft content of some sort.

We also have articles that said that Bethesda and Nintendo reunited to discuss about smash.

Another leaker by the name Hiitagi (who leaked the new Samurai Showdown) said that he has Heard about Steve from Minecraft and some discussions about the inclusión the possibility of a Granblue Fantasy character. Take all of this with a grain of salt though.
So I've heard. The only part of it I'm willing to give much credence to personally is Vergeben, since he now has a track record of having legitimate information about this game specifically. But even he's vague on the matter.

I suppose they could find a Square Enix character that I'd actually want to pick up, though it would probably have to be someone from Dragon Quest, since that's really only the Square Enix series I'd call myself a fan of. I'd bet on it being more likely to be someone from Final Fantasy or Sora from Kingdom Hearts though. Maybe Geno. And of those, I would maybe consider getting Sora, possibly - I did kind of like the first two Kingdom Hearts games. Not enough to bother with the spin-offs or be particularly excited about 3, but still. Probably wouldn't bother with a Final Fantasy character (I didn't buy Cloud for 4) or Geno though.

Minecraft and Bethesda stuff I just hope is wrong though. Either of those would look so totally out of place to me. Definitely wouldn't buy any DLC from those.

That Granblue thing is eh. Japan-only series, so no familiarity with it, and thus no opinion one way or the other. I'd tend to think that something that only Japan even knows about wouldn't be the best idea to sell as DLC in a game with this much worldwide popularity personally, but then again I also think Piranha Plant is an obviously terrible character choice, and that's happening anyway, so clearly they'll make choices that don't make a lot of sense to me sometimes at least.

[Rodin]

Agreed. While I was quite happy to play For Glory for a fair while in Smash 4 - it was certainly a huge step up from Brawl's awful online that wasn't even worth playing except with people on your friends list, and even then you had to hope it didn't lag too bad - I was definitely wishing for the chance to play a better variety of stages after a while. The ability to turn stage hazards off is going to be a godsend in this game I think, and the fact that that's one of your options for stage preferences online looks wonderful to me. I mean, my favorite stage in Smash history is Delphino Plaza: a relatively calm stage with no real hazards to speak of, but you get dropped off in various places over the course of the match to keep things fresh. I love that, and it'll be nice to see stages like that while playing random people online at last without needing to play with all the crazy nonsense of a free-for-all with items on, or risk ending up on a stage I'll hate like Wario Ware with all its mini-game hazards.

I've broken out my 3DS to try and tide myself over between now and December, and there's a few things I've been really noticing. The lack of single-player content obviously being a huge one, as I had forgotten just how sparse it is. The other big thing I had forgotten was the lack of options in the standard Smash mode - no way to control item rate being a big one, as you can't drop down the items to appear at a low rate. The other big one was stage variety - there's a mere 34 stages if you don't have DLC content, and I don't even like quite a few of the ones there. Ultimate is bringing us up to 103, which is insane.

Looking at the list, I'm trying to spot any stages that haven't returned. The only ones I can come up with are:

Sector Z (64) - Due to it being functionally identical to the Corneria stage from Melee, the more refined Melee stage will be used.

Ice Climbers (Melee) - the vertical scrolling stage hasn't made a return, it seems. Somehow, I don't think it will be missed.

Mushroom Kingdom (Melee) - Hasn't returned because the 64 version made it in. I assume the stages are too similar and they wanted to go full nostalgia in this case.

Poke Floats (Melee) - Another scrolling stage, this one I will kinda miss. I remember this stage causing a lot of laughs due to people trying to just survive the stage, nevermind fight your opponents. As Rainbow Cruise made it in, I'm rather surprised this one didn't.

Rumble Falls (Brawl) - Another vertical scroller. Starting to detect a theme here. Also won't be missed - in fact, I had to look at a blown-up version to even remember it.

Picto-chat (Melee) - Still replaced by Picto-chat 2. Given that we got both versions of Pokemon Stadium, it's kind of a shame we don't have both Picto-Chat versions - heck, just roll them up together for double the variations in a single stage.

Flat Zone (Melee) - Still rolled into Flat Zone X, so not surprising.

Miiverse (Wii U) - Due to Miiverse not being a thing and the stage being basically Battlefield, I presume.

[Zevox]

I've broken out my 3DS to try and tide myself over between now and December, and there's a few things I've been really noticing. The lack of single-player content obviously being a huge one, as I had forgotten just how sparse it is. The other big thing I had forgotten was the lack of options in the standard Smash mode - no way to control item rate being a big one, as you can't drop down the items to appear at a low rate. The other big one was stage variety - there's a mere 34 stages if you don't have DLC content, and I don't even like quite a few of the ones there. Ultimate is bringing us up to 103, which is insane.

Looking at the list, I'm trying to spot any stages that haven't returned. The only ones I can come up with are:

Sector Z (64) - Due to it being functionally identical to the Corneria stage from Melee, the more refined Melee stage will be used.

Ice Climbers (Melee) - the vertical scrolling stage hasn't made a return, it seems. Somehow, I don't think it will be missed.

Mushroom Kingdom (Melee) - Hasn't returned because the 64 version made it in. I assume the stages are too similar and they wanted to go full nostalgia in this case.

Poke Floats (Melee) - Another scrolling stage, this one I will kinda miss. I remember this stage causing a lot of laughs due to people trying to just survive the stage, nevermind fight your opponents. As Rainbow Cruise made it in, I'm rather surprised this one didn't.

Rumble Falls (Brawl) - Another vertical scroller. Starting to detect a theme here. Also won't be missed - in fact, I had to look at a blown-up version to even remember it.

Picto-chat (Melee) - Still replaced by Picto-chat 2. Given that we got both versions of Pokemon Stadium, it's kind of a shame we don't have both Picto-Chat versions - heck, just roll them up together for double the variations in a single stage.

Flat Zone (Melee) - Still rolled into Flat Zone X, so not surprising.

Miiverse (Wii U) - Due to Miiverse not being a thing and the stage being basically Battlefield, I presume.
Yeah, I won't miss most of those. Especially not the vertical scrolling stages or Poké Floats. Though I would kind of like Sector Z back personally - even though it's another one on the back of the Great Fox like Corneria, if memory serves it's substantially larger than Corneria's version, which I remember liking the few times I've gone back to SSB64 personally. But oh well, still no major loss.

[Qwertystop]

Picto-Chat was Brawl; Melee predated the DS by quite a bit.

And I actually quite liked the three scrolling stages that got dropped. Especially since Rainbow Cruise was kept, and it's got vertical segments.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm a bit bummed that Miiverse no longer exists, it was funny to see random salty messages from kids combined with fairly impressive artistic renditions of characters.

[Qwertystop]

I'm a bit bummed that Miiverse no longer exists, it was funny to see random salty messages from kids combined with fairly impressive artistic renditions of characters.

Splatoon 2 still has that.

[danzibr]

Rando question. You all have different mains depending on mode?

In Melee I used Sheik for 1v1 or 2v2, Ganondorf otherwise. With the heavy nerf bat, I switched to Ike in Brawl, then in Smash4 I usually go Ike.

At least when playing seriously. I try everyone otherwise. Especially Bowser on teams so I can Bowsercide and share stock, lulz.

[Zevox]

Rando question. You all have different mains depending on mode?

In Melee I used Sheik for 1v1 or 2v2, Ganondorf otherwise. With the heavy nerf bat, I switched to Ike in Brawl, then in Smash4 I usually go Ike.

At least when playing seriously. I try everyone otherwise. Especially Bowser on teams so I can Bowsercide and share stock, lulz.
Not really, no. The character that choose to main is just the one that I consider my favorite and tend to play the most in a given game, which doesn't change depending on the mode. I do play a lot more than just whoever winds up as my main though. Usually there's 2-3 that I like almost as much as my main that I consider my secondaries, and then a whole lot more that I play sometimes just because I like them. Count on that was up to I think 19 in Smash 4 (22 with the Mii Fighters, who I usually didn't get to play since they weren't allowed online and they were fairly low on my preferences list offline, but I did like playing on rare occasions).

[danzibr]

Not really, no. The character that choose to main is just the one that I consider my favorite and tend to play the most in a given game, which doesn't change depending on the mode. I do play a lot more than just whoever winds up as my main though. Usually there's 2-3 that I like almost as much as my main that I consider my secondaries, and then a whole lot more that I play sometimes just because I like them. Count on that was up to I think 19 in Smash 4 (22 with the Mii Fighters, who I usually didn't get to play since they weren't allowed online and they were fairly low on my preferences list offline, but I did like playing on rare occasions).
Ya know, I’d agree with that. In casual mode I had a bunch I’d play with. In Melee I’d just go random. Same for Brawl. In Smash 4 I didn’t quite get comfortable enough with everyone to do that, but played with at least half the crew.

[chainer1216]

Rando question. You all have different mains depending on mode?

In Melee I used Sheik for 1v1 or 2v2, Ganondorf otherwise. With the heavy nerf bat, I switched to Ike in Brawl, then in Smash4 I usually go Ike.

At least when playing seriously. I try everyone otherwise. Especially Bowser on teams so I can Bowsercide and share stock, lulz.

well i haven't played since Smash64 so...

[Geno9999]

Rando question. You all have different mains depending on mode?

In Melee I used Sheik for 1v1 or 2v2, Ganondorf otherwise. With the heavy nerf bat, I switched to Ike in Brawl, then in Smash4 I usually go Ike.

At least when playing seriously. I try everyone otherwise. Especially Bowser on teams so I can Bowsercide and share stock, lulz.

Mario has been a consistent main for me, with my other mains Toon Link and Wolf, and Bowser in Smash 4. Otherwise I mostly play single player modes, and I basically try everyone to unlock everything.

[Derjuin]

Rando question. You all have different mains depending on mode?

In Melee I used Sheik for 1v1 or 2v2, Ganondorf otherwise. With the heavy nerf bat, I switched to Ike in Brawl, then in Smash4 I usually go Ike.

At least when playing seriously. I try everyone otherwise. Especially Bowser on teams so I can Bowsercide and share stock, lulz.

I main Corrin in 1v1 and Charizard in 2v2, though sometimes I like to switch it up and use Charizard in 1v1 or Corrin/Ganondorf in 2v2. All in Smash4, I don't really play previous versions because I don't have access to them.

[Qwertystop]

Just looked at a few recorded matches from... I guess demos at a store or something?

Surprised to see what they've done with Game & Watch's sprites and arials.

[darkdragoon]

To be fair, once your cast surpasses a certain limit, it's hard to think of it as a proper fighting game. It's a similar problem to DBZ: Tenkaichi Budokai 3 - the game is less a fighting game and more a sandbox full of your favorite toys. (To be fair, smashing your toys together has been Smash Bros.' imagery since the beginning.)

The reasoning is that a proper fighting game needs tuning and balance, with each fighter having particular pros and cons. The more fighters you throw in, the more you see repeats (or echoes), gag characters, characters who are objectively better or objectively worse, and basically just throw balance out almost completely.


Tobal 2 reportedly has over 200, although yes, many of those are quest monsters or other oddballs.

That said, those characters don't really do anything to overall balance. The pack of DLC characters might, but even then that has a huge recency bias due to Bayonetta.

[Lethologica]

On a casual level, having some imbalance probably helps, if anything, since players can effectively handicap themselves with stronger or weaker characters to keep a decent balance within the playing group. On a competitive level, the absolute number of viable characters matters a lot more than the percentage; a hundred underpowered characters won't screw up a competitive game nearly as badly as five overpowered characters.

[Mando Knight]

On a casual level, having some imbalance probably helps, if anything, since players can effectively handicap themselves with stronger or weaker characters to keep a decent balance within the playing group.

That's what the actual handicap system is supposed to be for.

[Zevox]

On a casual level, having some imbalance probably helps, if anything, since players can effectively handicap themselves with stronger or weaker characters to keep a decent balance within the playing group.
That I don't think is true at all. The kind of imbalance that tends to get talked about on a competitive level usually has limited to no impact on casual-level play, because the imbalances reveal themselves only in the hands of players who know those characters and what they can do very well and have practiced it a lot. A casual player picking up Fox in Melee, MetaKnight in Brawl, or Bayonetta in Smash 4 won't be at any meaningful advantage over other casual players, because they won't know what the things are that make them so good in competitive settings, and thus won't be able to take advantage of them. You need something like deliberately-imbalanced boss characters for something like that, and Smash has never had one of those.

For that actual effect, you can just use the handicap mechanic that most Smash games have instead.

[Lethologica]

That I don't think is true at all. The kind of imbalance that tends to get talked about on a competitive level usually has limited to no impact on casual-level play, because the imbalances reveal themselves only in the hands of players who know those characters and what they can do very well and have practiced it a lot. A casual player picking up Fox in Melee, MetaKnight in Brawl, or Bayonetta in Smash 4 won't be at any meaningful advantage over other casual players, because they won't know what the things are that make them so good in competitive settings, and thus won't be able to take advantage of them. You need something like deliberately-imbalanced boss characters for something like that, and Smash has never had one of those.

For that actual effect, you can just use the handicap mechanic that most Smash games have instead.
While casuals don't experience competitive imbalances in characters, they absolutely experience casual imbalances in characters. And those imbalances are both more organic to the group experience and more easily 'tuned' than the handicap system. The latter is not without its merits, but its resolution is really low - it's only appropriate for addressing massive skill imbalances.

[danzibr]

One thing that bothered me is tiers are designed/calculated around no items, 1v1.

[Mando Knight]

One thing that bothered me is tiers are designed/calculated around no items, 1v1.

Smash Bros. doesn't have much in the way of "dedicated support" characters and a doubles tier list would be much more complex, requiring analysis of the characters' pairings as well as their general viability.

Similarly, items can drastically affect a given matchup (i.e. Marth getting a Ray Gun or Ganondorf picking up a Bunny Hood), but are so unpredictable that a character's ability to control item access (primarily their overall mobility) is more important than the influence of any specific item on their viability.

[Qwertystop]

I think the closest thing to a support character would be... Game & Watch, when partnered with someone who can fill the bucket (with something big)?

[Bartmanhomer]

One thing that bothered me is tiers are designed/calculated around no items, 1v1.

Tiers is the best thing that happen in Smash Bros since the very first Smash game in N64.

[Rodin]

That I don't think is true at all. The kind of imbalance that tends to get talked about on a competitive level usually has limited to no impact on casual-level play, because the imbalances reveal themselves only in the hands of players who know those characters and what they can do very well and have practiced it a lot. A casual player picking up Fox in Melee, MetaKnight in Brawl, or Bayonetta in Smash 4 won't be at any meaningful advantage over other casual players, because they won't know what the things are that make them so good in competitive settings, and thus won't be able to take advantage of them. You need something like deliberately-imbalanced boss characters for something like that, and Smash has never had one of those.


I think this is actually the opposite, at least based on personal experience. There was a marked difference in power between the "God Tier" characters in the first 3 games - namely Kirby and Pikachu in 64, Fox and Sheik in Melee, and Metaknight in Brawl. A semi-skilled casual player with those characters had a very noticeable advantage, and unlike competitive players a casual player often would not know how to counter-play against their strongest moves or know what the best character to counter-pick would be. The very fact that I knew Fox was the best character in the game while not even knowing that competitive Smash existed is testament enough that it had an impact.

What I have observed is that over time the gaps between the characters have decreased. I think I had already stopped playing Smash 4 by the time Bayonetta came out, but the dominance of all the previously mentioned characters no longer existed casually and previously joke-tier characters like Bowser and Ganondorf are much closer in power-level to the other characters. In practice, this means that while a low-tier character may not stand a chance against the best in the game, they ARE at least playable against the rest of the roster - something that was very much not true of Bowser in his original incarnation, for example.

This means that the variety in possible "fair fights" has gone up by a significant degree.

[Zevox]

While casuals don't experience competitive imbalances in characters, they absolutely experience casual imbalances in characters.
Which would be what, exactly? The only such thing I've ever even wondered about is maybe early Smash 4 Little Mac, who was frustrating to a lot of people online, but even that wouldn't apply so much if said online hadn't been stuck on Omega stages, where Mac's awful air game didn't matter so much due to the lack of platforms.


I think this is actually the opposite, at least based on personal experience. There was a marked difference in power between the "God Tier" characters in the first 3 games - namely Kirby and Pikachu in 64, Fox and Sheik in Melee, and Metaknight in Brawl. A semi-skilled casual player with those characters had a very noticeable advantage, and unlike competitive players a casual player often would not know how to counter-play against their strongest moves or know what the best character to counter-pick would be. The very fact that I knew Fox was the best character in the game while not even knowing that competitive Smash existed is testament enough that it had an impact.
That's not even remotely in line with my own experience. Casual players often don't even have a character's whole moveset memorized, aside from probably the special moves, much less be able to use them well enough for such imbalances to matter. Heck, the simple fact that casual matches will often be free-for-alls, have items on, or be on stages with crazy hazards kind of throws balance out the window in and of itself, when there so many more factors at play in the match beyond just two characters interacting with each other.

[Forum Explorer]

That's not even remotely in line with my own experience. Casual players often don't even have a character's whole moveset memorized, aside from probably the special moves, much less be able to use them well enough for such imbalances to matter. Heck, the simple fact that casual matches will often be free-for-alls, have items on, or be on stages with crazy hazards kind of throws balance out the window in and of itself, when there so many more factors at play in the match beyond just two characters interacting with each other.

It depends on your definition of casual really. I consider myself a casual player, but truth is, I'm the best in my immediate family/friends. But at actual tournaments I get rolled. But if I really try, I pretty much crushed anyone I knew outside that area.

Anyways, the point is that I certainly noticed tiers and the affect they had on our games, even on a casual level. It's something I used to handicap myself, in choosing lower tiered characters when facing friends who didn't get to play as often as me.

[Rodin]

I mean, I was going on what I consider to be the usual definition of casual, which is to say "non-professional". Someone who isn't good enough to enter tournaments with a reasonable expectation of winning significant amounts of cash, but still may have hundreds of hours under their belt playing the game. I spent my entire freshman year of college playing Smash 64 pretty much non-stop, and I very much consider myself a casual player of that game. Ditto Melee, which was the "if you're not in class, you're playing Melee" of my sophomore year - often to the detriment of our grades.

So yes, I mean players who are experienced with the character in question, playing serious 1v1 matches against each other with items off. And while not restricted necessarily to Final Destination or Battlefield, it's still going to be relatively serious stages like Yoshi's Island instead of goofball stages like Pokefloats.

Edit:

I would say a further difference is that we were not looking up and practicing advanced techs like wave-dashing, canceling, etc. We just played the game a lot.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I can see how characters could be balanced while imbalanced for casual play, mostly because knowing how to play around a character's gimmick isn't always something that's obvious on a casual level. I remember a ton of complaints flying around about "Fox laser spam" when low-level players would feel like a Fox who just sat at the side of the screen was impossible to approach when they did nothing but use neutral special. There's definitely some simple techniques with counterplay that's not as evident at the low levels of play.

[Rodin]

I remember Fox Laser Spam mainly being a problem in Free-for-Alls, where your option was to sit there and let Fox shoot you or allow the actually-good player you were fighting to kick you in the head if you turned your back on them. The same issue has been present with other ranged characters but it's always been easiest with Fox thanks to the easy spammability of his laser.

[Zevox]

It depends on your definition of casual really. I consider myself a casual player, but truth is, I'm the best in my immediate family/friends. But at actual tournaments I get rolled. But if I really try, I pretty much crushed anyone I knew outside that area.

I mean, I was going on what I consider to be the usual definition of casual, which is to say "non-professional". Someone who isn't good enough to enter tournaments with a reasonable expectation of winning significant amounts of cash, but still may have hundreds of hours under their belt playing the game. I spent my entire freshman year of college playing Smash 64 pretty much non-stop, and I very much consider myself a casual player of that game. Ditto Melee, which was the "if you're not in class, you're playing Melee" of my sophomore year - often to the detriment of our grades.

So yes, I mean players who are experienced with the character in question, playing serious 1v1 matches against each other with items off. And while not restricted necessarily to Final Destination or Battlefield, it's still going to be relatively serious stages like Yoshi's Island instead of goofball stages like Pokefloats.

Edit:

I would say a further difference is that we were not looking up and practicing advanced techs like wave-dashing, canceling, etc. We just played the game a lot.
Ah, see, that's not what just saying "casual play" means in my mind. What you (Rodin especially) describe sounds like, well, where I'm at. Which I'd certainly call relatively casual by comparison to full-blown tournament players, but would still differentiate from completely casual play. When it comes to fighting games, Smash included, I'd tend to categorize myself as a low to intermediate level player, depending on the game and how in-practice I am at the moment. The difference to me being that we're people who are still trying to play the game well and within the confines of how tournament play is done, while the phrase "casual play" instead brings to mind people who just pop the game in when they're with friends, play a few rounds on whatever rules settings the group feels like, and don't think much about it beyond that and some single-player play in the various modes available for that.

Sure, for people like us, who aren't tournament level but are still playing to our best ability under the same rules as tournament-style players do, we can absolutely notice imbalances that the competitive tier list reflects. Heaven knows I did in Smash 4 when I'd take my Dedede or Palutena online and face people playing Cloud or Diddy Kong who seemed to know how to use them well. I just tend to throw that into the same category as competitive imbalances since, well, we're playing like competitive players, even if we're at a lower skill level than the pros.

[danzibr]

Smash Bros. doesn't have much in the way of "dedicated support" characters and a doubles tier list would be much more complex, requiring analysis of the characters' pairings as well as their general viability.

Similarly, items can drastically affect a given matchup (i.e. Marth getting a Ray Gun or Ganondorf picking up a Bunny Hood), but are so unpredictable that a character's ability to control item access (primarily their overall mobility) is more important than the influence of any specific item on their viability.
Yeah, totes.

Tiers is the best thing that happen in Smash Bros since the very first Smash game in N64.
Wait what? They’re a consequence of the mechanics.

Are you talking about the fact that people compiled them so we know the “best” characters to choose 1v1?

[Bartmanhomer]

Yeah, totes.

Wait what? They’re a consequence of the mechanics.

Are you talking about the fact that people compiled them so we know the “best” characters to choose 1v1?
Yes that's what I'm talking about.

[Lethologica]

Which would be what, exactly? The only such thing I've ever even wondered about is maybe early Smash 4 Little Mac, who was frustrating to a lot of people online, but even that wouldn't apply so much if said online hadn't been stuck on Omega stages, where Mac's awful air game didn't matter so much due to the lack of platforms.
Good casual characters (by roughly your definition of 'casual') have good single-hit spammable moves - dash attack, f-tilt, f-smash, one or two b-moves - as well as forgiving weight and recovery. Shields and OoS options, grabs, combos, aerials, and movement don't really matter because casuals don't know about all that, but that doesn't make balance go away, it just changes what factors are important.

[danzibr]

Yes that's what I'm talking about.
I feel ya man.

In Brawl I mained Ike. However, I found I performed better as Metaknight.

[Bartmanhomer]

I feel ya man.

In Brawl I mained Ike. However, I found I performed better as Metaknight.

I always main Ness in all the Smash bro. Games because I'm an Earthbound fan and Ness is my favorite character.

[Jama7301]

For Brawl and 4, I had a steady dose of Link in my rotation. Also Lucas, because PK Freeze shenanigans are fun.

In Smash 4, I started off with Robin and Little Mac, and both were tricky. I finally settled on Cloud as my predominant main in the game, but also spent time with Mario because Cape and FLUDD were hilarious.

When playing though, with friends or online, I'll start the first handful of gains with the ones I've used most in Single Player, or those I've been practicing, then I'll switch to Random for awhile. It's more fun for me to do it like that.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm so looking forward for this game. I'm going to play Ness and become God-Tier Player.

[danzibr]

I'm so looking forward for this game. I'm going to play Ness and become God-Tier Player.
gl man

I’ll play as a mix of character and be solid nub-tier.

[Bartmanhomer]

Anyway Nintendo have to remove one of Mr. Game And Watch Fire Sprites because it was considered a stereotype to a certain ethnicity all because one crybaby was making a big deal out of it. I don't think it's racist and Nintendo shouldn't have listened to this person. :mad:

[Zevox]

Nah, that was a minor and, really, pointless addition. If it was easily removed and bothering people, better to just take it out.

[Rodin]

Nah, that was a minor and, really, pointless addition. If it was easily removed and bothering people, better to just take it out.

Agreed. It's two frames and doesn't even have the justification of being on previous Smash incarnations.

It hurts nothing to remove it, and if this story hadn't been posted to this thread I never would have known about it or noticed. Even if only one person is offended that's a good enough justification in this case.

[DaOldeWolf]

Be careful everyone! Leaks of the content of the game are lurking around.

[Zevox]

Be careful everyone! Leaks of the content of the game are lurking around.
Fine by me. Aside from maybe World of Light stuff I guess, though even there I'm not expecting it to be so story-heavy that I'd be all that worried about "spoilers." I mean, this is a fighting game, not an RPG - generally speaking I'd rather know what I'm getting in advance for a game like this.

[PhantomFox]

Breaking News! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7z1Ny1kc6g)

[Zevox]

Got back from a midnight release with the game. Now to get some sleep and be disappointed that I don't get to touch it until after work tomorrow...


Breaking News! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7z1Ny1kc6g)
I did have time to see this though. Holy ****. I did not think that our first Smash Ultimate DLC announcement would rival Cloud and Bayonetta for sheer jaw-dropping surprise from me, but there you go.

And there go my fears that we won't have any DLC characters that I want, because damn, I am not passing up getting Joker day 1. I really wish they'd had some gameplay to show off, I want to see him in action in Smash, but I guess if even Pirranah Plant is still incomplete, it's understandable that they didn't have it.

I wonder what his stage will be? Probably one of the Palaces, I'd have to guess, but which one? Kamoshida's is kind of the one that sticks out the most in my mind personally, but I could see them going with Shido's, or perhaps Sae's Casino. Or maybe a Delphino Plaza-style stage that tours all of the Palaces? Okay, that's probably wishful thinking on my part, but still, would be awesome.

Also, this means Persona music will be in Smash. Hot damn. I wonder if they'll throw in any music from the series outside Persona 5? Because the only thing better than Life Will Change being in (which is pretty much guaranteed I think, even if it may be only the instrumental version) would be Reach Out to the Truth. Or maybe The Almighty.

[Rising Phoenix]

Holy ****.

Basically my reaction as well. Can't wait for the game to arrive through the mail!

[GloatingSwine]

They did warn us we'd never see it coming.



I wonder what his stage will be? Probably one of the Palaces, I'd have to guess, but which one? Kamoshida's is kind of the one that sticks out the most in my mind personally, but I could see them going with Shido's, or perhaps Sae's Casino. Or maybe a Delphino Plaza-style stage that tours all of the Palaces? Okay, that's probably wishful thinking on my part, but still, would be awesome.


I'd guess the Casino, given that it's the introductory level.


Also, breaking news. I am terrible at Smash, not having played it since Melee.

(Also, might this mean, could it possibly be, that we get Persona 5 on Switch? I'd probably buy it again....)

[Yana]

Well if Joker can make it in, which is insanely awesome I must add, I now have the hope that a certain eyepatched gangster will be joining the fight.

[Zevox]

I'd guess the Casino, given that it's the introductory level.
Quite possible, that's definitely a reason it sticks out in my mind as a top option.


(Also, might this mean, could it possibly be, that we get Persona 5 on Switch? I'd probably buy it again....)
Eh, maybe, but I wouldn't assume so. Even though it's not out yet, Joker is already slated to be in a game on another Nintendo system: Persona Q2 on the 3DS.


Well if Joker can make it in, which is insanely awesome I must add, I now have the hope that a certain eyepatched gangster will be joining the fight.
:smallconfused: Not actually sure who you're referring to.

But yeah, speaking of the rest of the DLC, apparently after that reveal video last night Reggie popped up to say a few words, and he mentioned that Joker gives an idea of the "flavor" of how they're approaching the DLC characters - and that they'll all be characters you wouldn't necessarily expect to be in Smash, like he is.

So essentially, all bets are off now. Pretty much any noteworthy video game character could be a real candidate to be one of the remaining 4 DLC characters. About all you can rule out is, well, any new first-party characters, since Nintendo's own characters are the ones you'd expect to be in Smash. (Not that they had many left who weren't either playable or assist trophies anyway, but still.)

At this point, I think my most probable hope then is for Dante. Capcom's already in on Smash* with Mega Man, Ryu, and Ken, and would probably be happy to throw in Dante to promoted DMC5 - and if he got in, that would mean Smash would be the game to give us Dante vs Bayonetta, which would be awesome. :smallbiggrin:

*Speaking of, holy hell, the number of companies involved in the crossover keeps getting more nuts. We've got Nintendo, Konami, Sega, Namco, Capcom, Square-Enix, Platinum Games, and now Atlus too. And might well get as many as four more. And that's just the playable characters, it goes up even higher when you add the companies that own third-party assist trophies like Shovel Knight, or spirits like Shantae and Alex Roivas. It's just incredible when you think about it.

[Yana]

The character in question, Zevox, would be Majima Goro from the Yakuza series.

[Zevox]

The character in question, Zevox, would be Majima Goro from the Yakuza series.
Ah, yeah, that would explain me not recognizing it - I don't really know anything about the Yakuza series. But yeah, at this point, we could be seeing just about anyone, so why not?

So, end of day 1 with the game. I spent most of my time today in World of Light - which is really more an an adventure mode laden with spirit battles than a story mode, it turns out. Or at least, I haven't seen anything new for the story since the intro. Between World of Light's unlocks and unlocks that would happen whenever I backed out of it (which kind of prompted me to just start doing that every so often), I've got 43 characters unlocked at this point, a bit over half the roster. Still missing some of my favorites (King Dedede, Bayonetta, Palutena, Robin), but I got a fair few of the newcomers: Inkling, Isabelle, King K. Rool, and Simon. All from backing out though, none of them are early pickups in World of Light.

I tried most of them a little bit - didn't bother with K. Rool, since I'm pretty confident I won't like him, given he seems similar to Bowser or Ganondorf in style. Wouldn't have with Isabelle either, but I wanted to see how much she had in common with Villager. (The answer, incidentally, is a lot. On the clone spectrum I'd say she falls in between Falco and the 'why aren't they counted as Echoes?' clones like Doctor Mario and Young Link. As far as moves that are unique to her goes, I think she has one aerial, one tilt, one smash attack, her jab, and two special moves - and even one of the specials just mashes two of Villager's together.)

Inkling I kind of think I like, actually. She's a bit awkward for me at the moment, but fun enough that I could see her being on my list of also-playeds somewhere. I like the paint bomb down special she's got, and the dash animation is great. Simon... kind of iffy. He's got some cool stuff, but also limiting factors I might find frustrating. I guess not surprisingly, the same ones that frustrated me in the actual Castlevania games I played recently: narrow whip hitboxes. His short-hop fair and bair actually whiff over Marth's head because of it - he's only landing those against particularly tall characters unless he delays them, and you generally don't like doing that. Great range on a lot of those attacks though, no question there. I also think I'm hoping for Richter to be a bit faster than Simon, he feels a tad on the slow side for my liking.

But yeah, so far, so fun. I'm eager to finish unlocking everybody tomorrow so that the game can really begin.

[GloatingSwine]

http://www.gamersheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Yakuza-Kiwami-Majima-Everywhere-Guide.jpg


I mean I know they told us to expect anything, but putting Majima in before Kazuma, the actual main character of the Yakuza series, would probably just be contrarian.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I got to try out several of the new characters today. I particularly liked Simon and Ridley. Not much more to say about that. Inkling and Isabelle were a bit too strange for me to get a solid understanding of them enough to play well, and King K. Rool is fun to play, although not quite as much for me as Simon or Ridley.

King K. Rool kind of feels weird to me in that he's a heavy with two projectile moves, and a huge vertical recovery move, along with a reflect/counter move. Heavies don't seem to usually get those things, which makes him feel immediately unique and fun.

Every time I look at Zelda now, she looks odd to me. I appreciate her down-b move being changed though. That's a very welcome improvement.

Anyway, I think I'll stick by my mainstay of random. There's just a lot of characters that are fun to play.

Mario's grow pointlessly huge taunt is gone? Awww, what taunt will I use now?

[GloatingSwine]

I've been using Inkling a fair bit in WoL (I jumped straight into that and will continue rinsing it until it runs out). Have gotten the hang of paint management and I like the core moveset. Need to learn to control the splat roller better so I can get good followups after it's buried people.

The splattershot neutral special is a reasonably safe way to chip people and build up damage bonus on them.

I've kind of gotten past the random flailing stage (and set the controls up properly, the default ones are bad feels, I use Y for attack, X for special, and B for jump) and am starting to figure out all the options and how to use them, and the more chaotic fights have stopped being ultra confusing. Mostly played as Shiek, Lucario, and Inkling so far.

[danzibr]

For some first impressions...

Still dislike Sheik (mained her im Melee, hated her in Brawl, disliked her in Sm4sh).

I like Ike a bit more. Pity his down throw -> aether combo doesn't seem to work. Definitely remapping C-stick to tilts.

For new characters, I've only tried Inkling (strong dislike) and King K. Kool (this dude seems friggin' sweet).

Oh, and Bowser's down smash :(

OH! And the story mode! World of Light, 'dat intro... so epic. Didn't expect to get the feels. Go Kirby!

Also in World of Light, I kept getting my butt handed to me when you fight Zelda and she has that constant photograph assist. Highly irritating. Took like 10 tries.

Looking forward to unlocking Ganondorf and Ridley.

[Zevox]

Characters I've been playing so far:
- Marth: Feels good to me. I might like him here more than I have since Melee. Or maybe it's just because he carried the first part of World of Light for me since it took a while to find anyone else I play.
- Lucas: Feels better than he did to me in 4, but probably not going to wind up back as my main like he was in Brawl. Fun though.
- Mega Man: Still feels pretty much like in 4. I like him, but mostly because of who he is. His fighting style's kind of hard to use right. I like the changes to his Leaf Shield though, makes it far more usable than before.
- Falco: Feels a lot better than in 4. I think they gave him back some of his speed, and sped up the recovery on his blaster at least a touch, because it no longer feels completely awful. I might actually play him again after being all but unable to in 4.
- Ryu: This is actually me trying him for the first time, since I didn't get his DLC in 4. I find him awkward. Not entire sure how his jab and tilts work, I seem to get different things sometimes with those, and they seem pretty important to learn. I might need to go into training mode with him if I want to actually use him at all.
- Simon: Got him World of Light and tried him there, and yeah, I think he'll be a love-hate sort of thing for me. I like the zoning options that his item specials give him, and the range on his whip. And that dash attack is quite sick. On the other hand, good god the thin hitboxes on that whip. Especially his up smash and up air, which hit only things directly over his head - which makes him one of the rare characters where being above him might be a relative advantage, rather than a big disadvantage. And yeah, short hop fair/bair feels bad against enemies that aren't Bowser-size, which is not good at all.

I also unlocked Ridley outside WoL and gave him a whirl in training mode. I actually might like him, to my surprise - I was expecting him to be a lot slower, but he's got a good run speed and jump speed, and not even a bad walk speed. And I like the brutal side special where he drags you across the ground for big damage, all the way to the stage edge if you let him. Kind of strange that it might be preferable to approach the stage with your back to it sometimes though, since his up special angles downward when moving you forward and upward when moving you backward, and the only alternative is straight up.


http://www.gamersheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Yakuza-Kiwami-Majima-Everywhere-Guide.jpg

I mean I know they told us to expect anything, but putting Majima in before Kazuma, the actual main character of the Yakuza series, would probably just be contrarian.
Oh, that's not the main character? Then yeah, likely not going to happen. I mean, if anybody had actually been able to call a Persona character getting in, the obvious possibilities would be either Joker or Yu Narukami, since they're the main characters of their games (and Minato... let's just say has a reason he's maybe not the best option despite also being a main character). We were never going to see, say, Naoto or Makoto, however cool they may be, over the leads of their games.


Every time I look at Zelda now, she looks odd to me.
Yeah, I kind of agree. I prefer the adult look from Ocarina of Time/Twilight Princess over this Young Zelda they switched her to now.


Anyway, I think I'll stick by my mainstay of random. There's just a lot of characters that are fun to play.
If we could define which characters we wanted to show up in random, I might do the same. There's a decent chunk of ones I like playing now, but I wouldn't want to go full random since there's still a lot that I don't really like. Don't want to get stuck with someone like Olimar or Yoshi that I can't do anything with, or heavyweights I don't like such as Bowser or Ganondorf.


I've kind of gotten past the random flailing stage (and set the controls up properly, the default ones are bad feels, I use Y for attack, X for special, and B for jump).
I tried to edit the controls a bit at first too, but wound up finding that I was just making things harder on myself. I think at this point the only thing I've got customized is turning tap jump off.


I like Ike a bit more. Pity his down throw -> aether combo doesn't seem to work.
Aw, it doesn't? That's a shame. (I've unlocked him outside World of Light, but since I've only actually been playing that I haven't used him yet.)


Also in World of Light, I kept getting my butt handed to me when you fight Zelda and she has that constant photograph assist. Highly irritating. Took like 10 tries.
Yeah, you can run into some frustrating ones from time to time. I'm finding the ones where you're faced with teams of enemies spamming projectiles at you the worst - even with a spirit that starts you with the Franklin Badge, they often just hit you a couple of times once you close in, knock it off, and you're back to being SOL.

[danzibr]

@Zevox: Eek, that sounds unpleasant. The projectile spamming.

Oh, and Simon! I was having a lot of fun with him. Not new-main level fun, but a lot of fun. He’ll be one of my go-tos.

And yeah, a random-from-a-smaller-pool feature would be nice.

[Zevox]

End of day 2, I'm at 63 characters unlocked. Just eleven to go - which unfortunately includes Palutena, one of my old favorites who I'm eager to see how she is in this version, and Chrom, the new comer I most wanted to try. But at least I got Dedede and Bayonetta now (albeit only outside World of Light), as well as several other characters I like to lesser degrees.

Speak of Dedede, not a lot of impressions on him yet since I only used him in a couple of short unlock battles (MetaKnight and Incineroar managed to beat me the first time around, so I got to pick a non-WoL character to fight them the second), but I'm disappointed they changed his back air again. I really liked his Smash 4 one - one of my favorite things when playing him online was KOing an opponent that was below me with it. That vertical swing starting below him made it look like he was playing croquet, and his opponent was the ball. The new horizontal one is just... eh. It might technically be better since it's faster, but it'll never as satisfying.

Couple more characters I played a fair bit of in World of Light:
- Shulk. The main thing I noticed as different here is his special modes. He can get into them a lot faster now, and can easily select which one he wants rather than cycling through them to find it, but they seem to expire a lot quicker now, which sucks. Besides that, seemed pretty well the same as in 4 to me. Kind of like him, but almost certainly won't be my main.
- Toon Link. I'm not totally sure why, but I'm enjoying him more now than I did in 4. The only difference I've noticed is that he has a new fsmash, which is great since the old two-hit one he took from Link kind of sucked. I like the new one better for sure - plus it's another move he has to make him a bit more distinct from the original Link, which is nice in and of itself.

Just unlocked Zero Suit Samus before I decided to call it a night, so I'll definitely be playing her tomorrow.

And a couple more newcomer impressions:
- K. Rool. Decided to give him a spin in training mode, and eh... probably not my guy. Admittedly, he's not as slow as I expected, and it doesn't look like he'll struggle with recovery, but he's still got the heavyweight style to most of his attacks which I'm largely not fond of. Especially that up smash of his, yeesh, really don't like that one. Though on the flip side, his d-tilt seems to bury opponents quite easily, which could be really good. I don't know, maybe I'll give him a whirl sometime, but I'm still not expecting to like him.
- Incineroar. Kind of the reverse of K. Rool here - I wasn't sure how I'd like him, but he proved quickly to be one I won't like at all. If K. Rool is a bit different from what I expected a heavyweight to be, Incineroar is everything I'd expect of a heavyweight (which I did not know he would be). Crazy slow, bad recovery move, awkward-feeling attacks, the works. Definitely not for me.

Also unlocked a few of the new Echoes - Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus - but haven't tried them yet. Daisy and Dark Samus I probably won't care for since I don't like Peach or regular Samus, but Richter I'll be interested to see if I may prefer him to Simon.

[Derjuin]

Super disappointed with the performance of my old mains, Corrin and Charizard. I might be the only person in existence who is sad to see Pokemon Trainer back, though if there's a way to *just* play Charizard that might change. I don't know Squirtle and Ivysaur's movesets at all and frankly don't really want to learn them as they don't interest me, and having to switch pokemon up to twice per stock (or accidentally switching and having to re-do it) is too fiddly for me.

Corrin, on the other hand, just feels lackluster. She was relatively slow in 4 and there weren't any changes that actually sped her up. Dragon Fang Shot also doesn't seem to stun for as long, which makes the bite combo a bit more clumsy and less useful - tapping B for the weak shot and charging the bite no longer combos until much higher percents, so you either need to not charge the bite (a weak combo) or charge the shot for longer (not as useful and easier to avoid). The kick and pin duration on Dragon Lunge are not such huge nerfs unless you rely on those specific things in your playstyle, but it doesn't feel like it got any kind of change otherwise. On the whole, disappointed, probably won't play again. Feels clunky and slow despite not being a heavyweight.

New main is definitely Marth. Changes to foxtrotting and landing lag give him really good movement, and I can actually perform dancing blade in this game so that's A-ok with me. Everything with him feels really smooth. Also almost all of his movement modes were sped up, seems good

[GloatingSwine]

Also in World of Light, I kept getting my butt handed to me when you fight Zelda and she has that constant photograph assist. Highly irritating. Took like 10 tries.


You want to look at the power level in the top corner.

The ones that have a power level over nine thousaaaaand! tend to be a bit tasty.

For that Zelda fight I came back with a leveled up main spirit with better attack and defence. Your spirit's attack and defence bars do make a fair bit of difference.

[Derjuin]

The ones that have a power level over nine thousaaaaand! tend to be a bit tasty.


Those over 13000 are crazy. I'm stuck on two of them, but thankfully they are optional.


The The Boss zss fight, and the M Bison Ganondorf. I just can't beat em

[GloatingSwine]

Those over 13000 are crazy. I'm stuck on two of them, but thankfully they are optional.


The The Boss zss fight, and the M Bison Ganondorf. I just can't beat em


I've only tried one of those.

Ho-Oh and it basically ruined me instantly, will leave it for later.

Have gotten around it and done

Giga Bowser though. Slightly upset that he didn't get painted by any of Inkling's stuff, so switched back to Lucario.

Before I came to work this morning I ran into a roadblock of a team of Wii Fit Trainers that all have increased defence and heal over time, and it's a timed battle.

Might leave Spring Man in the gym to get levelled, his spirit has super high attack/low defence at level 1, give him queen bee style too so he's a total glass cannon.

[danzibr]

You want to look at the power level in the top corner.

The ones that have a power level over nine thousaaaaand! tend to be a bit tasty.

For that Zelda fight I came back with a leveled up main spirit with better attack and defence. Your spirit's attack and defence bars do make a fair bit of difference.
Thanks for the pointer!

I kinda don't like the skill trees. Sheik getting another jump in WoL is cool and all, but since she won't (or maybe can't, I don't care, wouldn't use it anyway) play that way in Smash, I won't be using it.

[Zevox]

Super disappointed with the performance of my old mains, Corrin and Charizard. I might be the only person in existence who is sad to see Pokemon Trainer back, though if there's a way to *just* play Charizard that might change. I don't know Squirtle and Ivysaur's movesets at all and frankly don't really want to learn them as they don't interest me, and having to switch pokemon up to twice per stock (or accidentally switching and having to re-do it) is too fiddly for me.
You can play just one of the Trainer's Pokémon and be fine now. They announced that back at E3 - the old mechanic where the Pokémon would weaken if you left them in too long is gone, so use whoever you want. Only downside is having a useless down special. I actually might play Pokémon Trainer a bit now that that's the case, though I'm only interested in Squirtle myself.

[boj0]

World of Light has been an experience, I have beat a few of the Legendary spirits through cheese tactics, like
inhaling Boss with Kirby and dunking her under the map.

The Geno fight is by far the hardest in the traditional sense, ended up having to fight with giant, metal Bowser and it still took a few tries.

Ho-oh was a lucky Death's Scythe smash hit

M. Bison was just a matter of spiking Ganondorf with Ryu.

9/18 Volt was frustrating beyond belief, I used Fox with Assist Killer and it took some tries, easily the most "unfair" feeling spirit

I will have to say if you can find the Baby Mario spirit, GET HIM, I found him in the Spirit Board, not sure about WoL location. At lv99 he enhances to Superstar Baby Mario, neutral type, 3 slots, First Strike Advantage, and over 13k power at max level. For comparison, Geno caps at 10k even with no special abilities, and The Boss is at 10,078 max level with Throw Power+

[Zevox]

Finished unlocking everybody! And as luck would have it, Palutena was the very last. Figures. Haven't found her in WoL yet either, so still waiting to try her, since I want to finish that.
I have hit the Dark World though, which is where I got a few of the last ones from. I really like the Zelda sub-world in it, it was pretty cool.

Also, the boss fights in this game just keep getting better an better. Rathalos was the best of the initial ones I'd say, but then Galeem was great, and holy cow did I like the Ocarina of Time Ganon fight, complete with only being able to hurt him by hitting his tail. That was just a fantastic reference to have. I half wish I'd backed out of it and brought in Link (or maybe Toon Link, since I don't typically play regular Link) to beat him with instead of Chrom.

A couple of characters I have found there and tried recently:
- Zero Suit Samus: Yep, still feels like she did in Smash 4 to me, which is pretty good. No changes jumped out at me, but that's fine.
- King Dedede: Aside from the previously-mentioned back air change, feels very much as he did in Smash 4. I still like him, even if that means he'll probably be low-tier once again.
- Zelda: Has always been one of those "I wish I could play her, but I suck as her" types for me. Looks like she still will be, feels every bit as awkward to me as ever. Oh well.
- Chrom: Oh hell yes, him I like. Very much feels like I was hoping he would, something in between Marth and Ike's styles, and very strong. Still very heavy on Marth moves obviously (about as different from Marth as Isabelle is from Villager in terms of moves I'd say), but just different enough not to feel redundant like Lucina does. I will be playing him for sure. (Interesting little thing I noticed, he doesn't throw his sword in his version of Aether, just does a swing near him then leaps up to where Ike's version of the move throws it to. Nice touch to differentiate them a bit.)
- Cloud: Never bought him in 4, so this is my first time trying him. Not bad. I don't think I'll like him as much as the Fire Emblem swordsmen, but I could see him as an also-played on my lineup. Limit Break side specials are really satisfying to land.

[Qwertystop]

Finished unlocking everybody! And as luck would have it, Palutena was the very last. Figures. Haven't found her in WoL yet either, so still waiting to try her, since I want to finish that.
I have hit the Dark World though, which is where I got a few of the last ones from. I really like the Zelda sub-world in it, it was pretty cool.

Also, the boss fights in this game just keep getting better an better. Rathalos was the best of the initial ones I'd say, but then Galeem was great, and holy cow did I like the Ocarina of Time Ganon fight, complete with only being able to hurt him by hitting his tail. That was just a fantastic reference to have. I half wish I'd backed out of it and brought in Link (or maybe Toon Link, since I don't typically play regular Link) to beat him with instead of Chrom.

A couple of characters I have found there and tried recently:
- Zero Suit Samus: Yep, still feels like she did in Smash 4 to me, which is pretty good. No changes jumped out at me, but that's fine.
- King Dedede: Aside from the previously-mentioned back air change, feels very much as he did in Smash 4. I still like him, even if that means he'll probably be low-tier once again.
- Zelda: Has always been one of those "I wish I could play her, but I suck as her" types for me. Looks like she still will be, feels every bit as awkward to me as ever. Oh well.
- Chrom: Oh hell yes, him I like. Very much feels like I was hoping he would, something in between Marth and Ike's styles, and very strong. Still very heavy on Marth moves obviously (about as different from Marth as Isabelle is from Villager in terms of moves I'd say), but just different enough not to feel redundant like Lucina does. I will be playing him for sure. (Interesting little thing I noticed, he doesn't throw his sword in his version of Aether, just does a swing near him then leaps up to where Ike's version of the move throws it to. Nice touch to differentiate them a bit.)
- Cloud: Never bought him in 4, so this is my first time trying him. Not bad. I don't think I'll like him as much as the Fire Emblem swordsmen, but I could see him as an also-played on my lineup. Limit Break side specials are really satisfying to land.

Dedede's inhale is now a reflector – and it works on just about everything. Funny with trees. That's a nice buff. (Also, I think it's the only reflector that you can hold but that only covers one side?)

[Yana]

@Zevox, The only reason I think that Majima stands a chance at getting ahead of Kiryu is solely because he's a more popular character in addition to having a much more frenetic fighting style in his series.

I mean, his main style can be summed up as: Breakdancing with knives.

Who wouldn't want that in Smash?

[danzibr]

Huh, Crom is between Marth and Ike. I might play him.

Also, unlocked Ridley. Other than a few of his moves being duds (like his side tilt), I like him a lot. Especially his over B.

[Zevox]

More random characters I tried in WoL thoughts:
- Robin: I really like the new meters that give you a good look at how much durability her Levin Blade and tomes have, and how long until they regenerate when they're out. The new Levin Sword mechanics are mostly nice too (particularly having a nair that uses it), though I don't know why she can't start with it available. It does become available pretty quick though, so not a huge deal. It does seem like ArcThunder holds enemies for less time now, so no getting any Levin Sword aerials after it, but eh, that was pretty difficult to do anyway. Oh, and she has a nice new flourish animation on her up smash - doesn't change how the move works at all, but it looks cool. All in all, liking her changes.
- Richter: At first I thought he might be a bit faster than Simon, but then I took them both into training mode to compare, and if there's any difference, it's small enough to be hard to see. Honestly think these two might be basically the same aside from appearance. In which case... eh, I probably wind up going with Richter I guess, but it's kind of sad that they're true clones like that.
- Ridley: Like him. That side special is really satisfying to land, and does good damage if you drag them enough distance. The projectile special is pretty solid too. His fsmash does seem a bit shorter range than I expected in practice, but eh, his up and down smashes both seem really good.
- R.O.B.: Feels nerfed to me. He seems to have lost his down throw combos, and maybe it's weird WoL/Spirits circumstances, but his uair feels like it has less killing potential now. Otherwise pretty much as I remember. Still like him, but a bit disappointed with those.
- Corrin: I didn't play her that much in Smash 4, since she came out at the same time as Bayonetta (and while I like Corrin, the choice between her and Bayonetta is still pretty one-sided in the Umbra Witch's favor), but she feels much as I remember. Probably not as much to my liking as the other Fire Emblem characters, but still fun.

Didn't try him in World of Light (haven't got him there yet), but I did decide to take Roy into training mode, since I never picked him up in Smash 4, to see how he compares to Marth and Chrom. Answer: he's Chrom plus fire effects, bad sweet/sour spots on his sword, and Fire Dolphin Slash instead of Aether. Still mostly a Marth clone, and too close to Chrom for me to think there's a reason to use both - and between the two, I think Chrom's the easy winner with me. Mechanically because of the lack of Roy's sweet/sour spots on the sword, and also character-wise because, well, I've played Awakening and like Chrom there, while Binding Blade never made it out of Japan.


Dedede's inhale is now a reflector – and it works on just about everything. Funny with trees. That's a nice buff. (Also, I think it's the only reflector that you can hold but that only covers one side?)
:smalleek: Seriously? Wow, glad you told me, because I don't think I'd ever have found out on my own. That is so strange I'd never have thought to check for it - and I'm kind of in the habit of ignoring that move as just bad, so I wouldn't happen across it accidentally. That could actually be pretty nice, one of the big things Dedede needed help with was dealing with projectiles, since his big body makes him an easy target for them and his slow air movement seriously limits his options for getting around them. Could be a big deal for him.


@Zevox, The only reason I think that Majima stands a chance at getting ahead of Kiryu is solely because he's a more popular character in addition to having a much more frenetic fighting style in his series.

I mean, his main style can be summed up as: Breakdancing with knives.

Who wouldn't want that in Smash?
Eh, guess I can't speak to it since I'm not familiar with the series, but it strikes me that you'd need a pretty odd situation for someone who's not the lead of their series to be the first character from it put into Smash. With any series I can think of, it just feels obvious you'd take the main character first.


Also, unlocked Ridley. Other than a few of his moves being duds (like his side tilt), I like him a lot. Especially his over B.
His side tilt seemed fine to me? It's his down special that I'm seriously questioning the usefulness of. It's just so slow, and only gets it big reward if it hits at the sweet spot distance there.

[tonberrian]

Playing through the World of Light, thoughts on spirits:

Basically anything you can enhance will end up better than what you can find at equivalent ranks. This is good, because those 4 star fights are a real pain without a 4 star spirit to help you. Notable ones I found were Liquid Snake (Evolves into Big Boss with a very tasty Damage+ vs metal opponents, 2 slots, and really good stats, green), Zero (Z Buster) (evolves into Zero (Z Saber) with good stats, +weapons and +speed, 2 slots, red), Lyndis (evolves into Lyndis (Blade Lord) with Crit++, Better stats than Zero (Z Saber) I think, 2 slots, red). There's a couple of blue ones, but I forget their names because I didn't recognize them.

You pretty much definitely need a full set of the Floor Immunities for later spirit matches. You can get by with two instances of resistance (they seem to stack into an immunity - only tested with heavy wind), as well, and you get resistances to most types from your skill tree in the Land of Light, but you don't get that on the board. Notably, Lava Immunity is available in the upper middle part of the Land of Light, right in front of LoL's Pikachu unlock and near Darunia's dojo (there's some rapids you need some sort of swimming spirit to cross).

The Spirit Rock-Paper-Scissors is REALLY important. The Legendary four-star spirit fights are definitely stacked against you. Try to have a good spirit of each color to take on everyone with.

[Rising Phoenix]

I have to say that I don't particularly care about world of light...

Have unlocked about fifty characters, but boy am I rusty since the years I played on the gamecube...

Still remember how to play jigglypuff and pikachu at least....

I love vulture killing kills as puff...

Oh and I suck at the game...shielding? Dodging? Juggling this in the air? What's that?

[Rodin]

Still not sure what to make of WoL. It's fun enough, and every time it gets boring it surprises me with something. For instance...

A freaking DRAGON.

However, I can't help but feel a bit of sadness for the lack of cutscenes during the whole process. A lot of the charm of Subspace Emissary came from the cutscenes that managed to tell a story with no dialogue while handling 50+ characters. It was very impressive, and without them WoL feels more like a souped-up Event mode. Clearing the map to fight the eldritch...whatever-the-heck Galleom is...has become a bit of a chore, and I'm pushing through to unlock characters rather than clearing to get spirits.

Everything else about the game I am unreservedly digging.

[Felyndiira]

There are a fair number of ways to cheese WoL, I've found. The premier way is to get that passive that grants super armor when you charge a smash attack, and combo it with the enhanced form of Mumkhar (he's two stars, so grab him as soon as possible). The enhanced Mumkhar has 5000+ base power and an ability that makes you start as giant and metal, which when combined with the super armor skill, lets you brute force a lot of 4-star enemies. Add the passive that heals you on a smash attack and you can outright tank annoying stages, like that Jeff one in WoL.

A runner-up to this is Diancie, who enhances into Mega Diancie, with excellent power, 3 slots, and an ability that gives you auto-Franklin badge at start (reflects projectiles). This instantly renders a lot of annoying levels moot.

Not all enhanced forms are stronger than normal ones, though. It does seem to vary wildly depending on the spirit. 4 star spirits can have less than 4000 power at start, or higher than 5000 (or 6000).

[Zevox]

So, I'm not quite done with World of Light yet, but I am 100% confident I'm right at the end. And it is awesome.
You get to play as Master Hand and absolutely slaughter a whole army of light and dark fighters. Goddamn, but that was fun.

Oh, and a final section where you bring in three characters and fight through a gauntlet that includes replaying every boss fight in the game. Which I'm assuming probably caps off with a simultaneous fight with Galeem and Dharkon - maybe not, I haven't gotten there yet and it admittedly sounds very difficult unless they sort of take turns doing things, but seems to be where this is leading up to to me.

Oh, and I did fight Dharkon without doing the middle path once. And it's not just a rehash of the first fight with him, he actually gets new abilities and is noticeably harder. And damn, it feels pretty good to beat the embodiment of Darkness with the Goddess of Light, since Palutena wasn't yet unlocked the first time you fight him. Good stuff, looking forward to seeing the real ending. And maybe doing a rematch with Galeem beforehand (probably with Bayonetta, for the reverse theme of Palutena vs Dharkon), I suspect that seeing both of the bad endings that way may open one of the challenge panels.
A few character thoughts to throw out:
- Palutena. I'm going to reserve my glee a bit for until I play her in modes without Spirits, but man oh man, does she feel buffed. Her f-tilt seems to both start up and recover a lot faster, making it a real move at last; her smash attacks feel like they recover a bit faster (at least forward and up, maybe not down); her back throw seems to do surprising damage; and it feels like the good stuff she had before (her down throw and aerials, mostly) is intact. Hard to say whether her up air is quite as godly as before, I haven't had the opportunity to see if it still out-prioritizes any nasty diving attacks yet, but it still seems to kill pretty well. And hell, Explosive Flame has killing power, which I really didn't expect (though I am having trouble figuring out how its range works). She might be legitimately good this time, I think.
- Ike. Feels like I'd expect, which is good, but I'm a bit disappointed they changed his up air. Mostly because the new one is much closer to Marth's, and by extension all the other FE swordsmen. It's probably a better move than his old version, since it feels like it has the same power as before, definitely has more range, and seems like it may even be a bit faster, but still, his old helicopter twirl one was more unique.
- Mewtwo. Feels a lot faster than I remember. Like, holy cow, I thought Mewtwo used to be a bit on the slow side, but unless I had a spirit mode buff I wasn't aware of to his speed, he is very much not now.
- Bayonetta. I am rusty as all get out with her, but she's still fun. Not well suited for most Spirit Battles though, she doesn't play nice with groups of enemies attacking her at once. And I think Witch Time just doesn't work in World of Light, it was lasting less time than it took for her dodge animation to finish the couple of times I tried.


Playing through the World of Light, thoughts on spirits:

Basically anything you can enhance will end up better than what you can find at equivalent ranks. This is good, because those 4 star fights are a real pain without a 4 star spirit to help you. Notable ones I found were Liquid Snake (Evolves into Big Boss with a very tasty Damage+ vs metal opponents, 2 slots, and really good stats, green), Zero (Z Buster) (evolves into Zero (Z Saber) with good stats, +weapons and +speed, 2 slots, red), Lyndis (evolves into Lyndis (Blade Lord) with Crit++, Better stats than Zero (Z Saber) I think, 2 slots, red). There's a couple of blue ones, but I forget their names because I didn't recognize them.
Damn, I wish I could get that Lyn spirit to show up. Doesn't seem to be one of the pre-set ones in World of Light itself, and I ignored the Spirit Board all weekend, and no luck seeing her there today...

I will say that I don't find that the Legendary spirits necessarily need a legendary spirit to beat them. I've fought them with Ace spirits, sometimes at as much as a 4k power deficit, and managed to win. Depending on the specifics of the fight it's sometimes not even that hard, though those specifics could admittedly also render them pretty frustrating even with higher-power spirits (see: Giga Mac...).


Still not sure what to make of WoL. It's fun enough, and every time it gets boring it surprises me with something. For instance...

A freaking DRAGON.

However, I can't help but feel a bit of sadness for the lack of cutscenes during the whole process. A lot of the charm of Subspace Emissary came from the cutscenes that managed to tell a story with no dialogue while handling 50+ characters. It was very impressive, and without them WoL feels more like a souped-up Event mode. Clearing the map to fight the eldritch...whatever-the-heck Galleom is...has become a bit of a chore, and I'm pushing through to unlock characters rather than clearing to get spirits.

Everything else about the game I am unreservedly digging.
That part of it kind of drags on a bit too long, I'd say, but keep going. The experience gets better, trust me. Not much heavier on cutscenes admittedly, but definitely better.

[Lord Raziere]

going through Classic.

the characters I've made most success with intensity are: Peach/Daisy, Zero-suit Samus and Ike, who have all broke 6.0. second in place in that are Fox and Falco.

when I unlocked Ridely, I got the LOWEST intensity score I ever had. I'm actually the worst at that character -_-

Daisy and Zero-Suit Samus might be my new mains, but I want to be good with Mii swordfighter so I can kick ass in the maid outfit and her broom. just the thought of beating people up as a humble maid is awesome to me.

[Rising Phoenix]

going through Classic.

the characters I've made most success with intensity are: Peach/Daisy, Zero-suit Samus and Ike, who have all broke 6.0. second in place in that are Fox and Falco.

when I unlocked Ridely, I got the LOWEST intensity score I ever had. I'm actually the worst at that character -_-

Daisy and Zero-Suit Samus might be my new mains, but I want to be good with Mii swordfighter so I can kick ass in the maid outfit and her broom. just the thought of beating people up as a humble maid is awesome to me.

Hi there,

What are the differences between peach and daisy?