The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um Stick

[LibraryOgre]

Welcome, one and all, to the latest thread for us to discuss, debate, and rag on our favorite series of Bethesda RPGs!


Previous threads:

Who's excited for Skyrim? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202414)
Skyrim II: A Dragon A Day Keeps The Draugr At Bay. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222730)
Skyrim III: Get rich selling protective knee gear! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12323418#post12323418)
Skyrim IV: Oblivion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228914)
Skyrim V: Skyrim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?243186-Skyrim-V-Skyrim&p=13225784#post13225784)
Skyrim Thread VI: Dov Riders, AWAY! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262708)
The Elder Scrolls VII: Do you believe in mod? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298127)
The Elder Scrolls: By the VIII Divines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329913-The-Elder-Scrolls-By-the-VIII-Divines)
It's the IX Divines You milk drinker! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370764-The-Elder-Scrolls-It-s-the-IX-Divines-you-milk-drinkers)
The Elder Scrolls X: Thalmor Or Less (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416193-The-Elder-Scrolls-X-Thalmor-or-Less)
Wouldn't Want to Be Elsweyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492511-The-Elder-Scrolls-XI-Wouldn-t-Want-To-Be-Elsweyr)
Twelve Worlds of Creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510977-Elder-Scrolls-XII-Twelve-Worlds-of-Creation)
The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526026-The-Elder-Scrolls-XIII-Born-Under-a-Certain-Sign)
The Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?548748-The-Elder-Scrolls-XIV-Good-Bad-I-m-the-one-with-the-Thu-um!)


Handy things For Skyrim:
Official forums (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/forum/117-v-skyrim/)
Perk calculator (http://skyrimcalculator.com/)
Some things you need to know about Skyrim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12328428#post12328428)
The Wiki (http://uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page)


Have at it!

[Keltest]

In honor of the new thread, let me be the first to complain about the lack of immersive chainmail mods out there. Ive found something like two that actually look like real armor, and the rest are either all fetish wear or don't have a clue what chainmail is supposed to look like (or both).

[Triaxx]

I mean given the prevalence and sheer awesome power of Archers, plus the lack of insulation, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in Chainmail. Also the Nord Hauberk from Immersive Armors is the best I've seen.

[Keltest]

I mean given the prevalence and sheer awesome power of Archers, plus the lack of insulation, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in Chainmail. Also the Nord Hauberk from Immersive Armors is the best I've seen.

Yeah, that's the one im using right now. Also, while yeah, archers suck for anything less than plate armor, hide and leather which 90% of all of Skyrim's non-plate is made of is not going to improve that situation.

Also, chainmail was still typically worn over a gambeson for padding, so its not like it would be cold.

[DigoDragon]

I mean given the prevalence and sheer awesome power of Archers, plus the lack of insulation, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in Chainmail.

Well, you'd not be caught alive in it for very long. :smallbiggrin:

I would love an armored version of the fancy noble clothing. In fact, I should go look to see what's available. Would be cool running around like a Jarl King Arthur with Dawnbreaker.

[LibraryOgre]

I am reminded of David Eddings The Elenium, where the Gendian Knights of Thalesia wore chain, instead of plate like most knights. When asked why, they reply that there are enough rivers that they wanted armor they could get out of in a hurry (i.e. before they drowned).

[Silverraptor]

Manual install of the Unofficial patch is quite literally just extract to data folder. It's all in a couple files so you can just drop it in place without a mod manager.

So, how exactly should I go about doing this? I mean, downloading the unoffical patch I understand, but where in the game folders should I put the unofficial patch for it to be applied?

[Keltest]

So, how exactly should I go about doing this? I mean, downloading the unoffical patch I understand, but where in the game folders should I put the unofficial patch for it to be applied?
Navigate to the Skyrim folder, and there should be one called Data. Most main mod files go in there.

[Caelestion]

Or, of course, you could use a different mod manager, such as Wrye Bash, which handles installing most mod packages natively.

[Silverraptor]

So I went onto nexus mod manager and it seems the hearthstone unofficial patch has been deleted. Because of course it has.:smallsigh:

[Ogremindes]

I think the unofficial patches have been folded into the Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch (or Special Edition Patch, depending on which version you're using).

[Silverraptor]

I think the unofficial patches have been folded into the Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch (or Special Edition Patch, depending on which version you're using).

And if we're not playing with the Legendary Edition, would that patch still work?:smallconfused:

[Triaxx]

All Legendary Edition Patch is, is the multiple patches combined into one file.

[Spore]

I mean given the prevalence and sheer awesome power of Archers, plus the lack of insulation, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in Chainmail. Also the Nord Hauberk from Immersive Armors is the best I've seen.

Honestly immersive armors is not a strength of Skyrim. They've always looked more fantastical to me, even when you ignore the odd chainmail bikini. With Arena and Daggerfall basically just outlining the character sprite in non-flesh colors, in Morrowind, a majority of the armors were used to display the alien nature of dark elves (glass armor, chitin armor, daedric armor). Oblivion and Skyrim just kept a majority of said alien armor types.

Personally I would have been more fond of better stated "barbaric" light and heavy armor (Stahlrim looks f-ugly).

[Mando Knight]

And if we're not playing with the Legendary Edition, would that patch still work?:smallconfused:

If you're playing the old Skyrim with all three main DLCs (Dragonborn, Dawnguard, and Hearthfire), you qualify for the Legendary Edition, even if you bought them piecemeal.

[plungerhorse]

Honestly immersive armors is not a strength of Skyrim. They've always looked more fantastical to me, even when you ignore the odd chainmail bikini. With Arena and Daggerfall basically just outlining the character sprite in non-flesh colors, in Morrowind, a majority of the armors were used to display the alien nature of dark elves (glass armor, chitin armor, daedric armor). Oblivion and Skyrim just kept a majority of said alien armor types.

Personally I would have been more fond of better stated "barbaric" light and heavy armor (Stahlrim looks f-ugly).

Morrowind's whole aesthetic was the best. It was so fantastical and otherworldly, oblivion and especially skyrim have just felt so bland. I cannot wait for skywind to come out if it ever does

[Balmas]

Morrowind's whole aesthetic was the best. It was so fantastical and otherworldly, oblivion and especially skyrim have just felt so bland. I cannot wait for skywind to come out if it ever does

That's because when they made Morrowind, they drew on sources that weren't "Generic European Medieval Fantasy" and "Generic European Medieval Fantasy (But From A Different Part Of Europe)." They looked at stuff like Arabic and Egyptian designs, and it's brilliant.

[veti]

Honestly immersive armors is not a strength of Skyrim. They've always looked more fantastical to me, even when you ignore the odd chainmail bikini.

It's the fur bikinis that bother me most. These people spend all day standing pretty much stationary in a 24 hour blizzard, and they wear "armour" that leaves 60% of their flesh exposed?

It's not as if there's a shortage of fur. There's more wild animals per acre in Skyrim than in the average zoo.

[Spore]

It's the fur bikinis that bother me most. These people spend all day standing pretty much stationary in a 24 hour blizzard, and they wear "armour" that leaves 60% of their flesh exposed?

It's not as if there's a shortage of fur. There's more wild animals per acre in Skyrim than in the average zoo.

Not really sure how the 100/75/50% cold resistance of Nord play into this. I was always assuming they could literally sleep naked in a heap of snow and not catch a cold.

[Silverraptor]

It's the fur bikinis that bother me most. These people spend all day standing pretty much stationary in a 24 hour blizzard, and they wear "armour" that leaves 60% of their flesh exposed?

It's not as if there's a shortage of fur. There's more wild animals per acre in Skyrim than in the average zoo.


Not really sure how the 100/75/50% cold resistance of Nord play into this. I was always assuming they could literally sleep naked in a heap of snow and not catch a cold.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdolescentIdenticalAlpinegoat-max-1mb.gif

[Keltest]

Not really sure how the 100/75/50% cold resistance of Nord play into this. I was always assuming they could literally sleep naked in a heap of snow and not catch a cold.

The nords, maybe. But the poor dunmer must be dying. Theyre used to sleeping in volcanos, not snow banks.

[LibraryOgre]

The nords, maybe. But the poor dunmer must be dying. Theyre used to sleeping in volcanos, not snow banks.

Didn't the Altmer have penalties to cold resistance at one point? Morrowind and Oblivion, at least?

[factotum]

Not really sure how the 100/75/50% cold resistance of Nord play into this. I was always assuming they could literally sleep naked in a heap of snow and not catch a cold.

The point of armour is to protect your flesh from sharp metal pointy things, not the cold.

[Spore]

Didn't the Altmer have penalties to cold resistance at one point? Morrowind and Oblivion, at least?

Not sure but the ice statues in the Dawnguard temple area speak VOLUMES!

[Mando Knight]

Didn't the Altmer have penalties to cold resistance at one point? Morrowind and Oblivion, at least?

Also to Fire and Shock resistance. -50% in Morrowind, -25% in Oblivion. Morrowind also included a -50% Magicka resistance penalty.

[Keltest]

Also to Fire and Shock resistance. -50% in Morrowind, -25% in Oblivion. Morrowind also included a -50% Magicka resistance penalty.

Theoretically, this was fluffed as a vulnerability to magical attacks. Altmer were such fundamentally magical creatures that they really struggled to shrug off magical attacks. As opposed to the nords and dunmer, who were just so innately resistant to their otherwise hostile environments that it spilled over into resisting artificial forms of it as well.

[Celestia]

Also to Fire and Shock resistance. -50% in Morrowind, -25% in Oblivion. Morrowind also included a -50% Magicka resistance penalty.
Challenge run: play Morrowind as an Altmer with the Apprentice birth sign. See how long you can survive. :smalltongue:

[Divayth Fyr]

Challenge run: play Morrowind as an Altmer with the Apprentice birth sign. See how long you can survive. :smalltongue:
Nowhere near as suicidal as it would be in the later games, seeing that weakness to magicka only mattered for a few spell effects in MW, with absorb/damage/drain health being the only direct damage ones being boosted by it.

[Resileaf]

Not really sure how the 100/75/50% cold resistance of Nord play into this. I was always assuming they could literally sleep naked in a heap of snow and not catch a cold.

There's a mod I use that gives cold weather an effect on your character, up to the point of killing them if they stay in the cold too long. Nords definitely have a huge resistance to the cold in that mod, but not to the point of staying in the snow naked. XD

I think it's the only way to make fur armor useful in that game, actually.

[plungerhorse]

That's because when they made Morrowind, they drew on sources that weren't "Generic European Medieval Fantasy" and "Generic European Medieval Fantasy (But From A Different Part Of Europe)." They looked at stuff like Arabic and Egyptian designs, and it's brilliant.

huh i never really picked up on egyptian/arabic influences. then there's also stuff like the mushroom towers... haha. that's interesting, i'll have to go back and take a look! But yeah, "Generic European Medieval Fantasy" is about as played out and overdone as you can get at this point in time.

[Sajiri]

Im back for my half yearly skyrim playthrough! And once again I am looking at SSE. I've been sticking with LE this whole time, I know there was a reason why but I cant recall what it was. The last time I looked into it, Im pretty sure that skse had been released for SE, so I don't know my reasoning...

Is there any reason someone should stick to LE over SE these days? It was likely for Skyrim Romance mod that I stuck with LE, even though anytime I get the urge to try that mod again I uninstall it pretty quickly because I remember how cringy it was, but still.

I have LE all installed and set up with mods from the last time I played, with a save already there, but Im wondering if it's time I finally move on.

[Balmas]

I have LE all installed and set up with mods from the last time I played, with a save already there, but Im wondering if it's time I finally move on.

I can only think of two reasons to play LE right now. First is if there's a mod you just can't live with that hasn't been ported, and even that isn't that big of an issue if you're capable of converting them yourself. The second reason is if you have a schedule you need to stick to, as the updates to Creation Club can break SKSE64.

[Aeson]

Also to Fire and Shock resistance. -50% in Morrowind, -25% in Oblivion. Morrowind also included a -50% Magicka resistance penalty.
Altmer in Morrowind only had the 50% weaknesses to Fire and Magicka; the Weaknesses to Frost and Shock were only 25%. Oblivion dropped the 50% Weakness to Magicka and reduced the Weakness to Fire down to 25%, bringing it in line with the vulnerability to Shock and Frost.


Challenge run: play Morrowind as an Altmer with the Apprentice birth sign. See how long you can survive.
I agree with Divayth Fyr; the additional Weakness to Magicka from the Apprentice birthsign really isn't that much of an issue in Morrowind. Even doubling down on the innate 50% Weakness to Magicka with the 50% Weakness to Magicka from the Apprentice birthsign, the Altmer's elemental weaknesses - especially the 50% Weakness to Fire - are a much more serious vulnerability for an Altmer character than Weakness to Magicka is. Beyond that, the Apprentice is the second-best birthsign for a spellcaster in Morrowind - only the Atronach is better, and the Mage is much worse even with the Altmer's innate bonus to maximum magicka reducing the relative advantage - and Altmer starting bonuses heavily incentivize a spellcasting character if you care at all about optimization, so unless you're not planning to do much of any spellcasting I'd say that an Altmer Apprentice character looks at least somewhat optimized. The only reason I wouldn't recommend taking the Apprentice birthsign for a spellcaster build in Morrowind is that the Atronach is simply better; I think the only time I've ever found Stunted Magicka to be much of an issue in Morrowind was one time when I didn't take enough potions with me and followed the main quest into Kogoruhn ... but by that point in the game I had magic items for Mark, Recall, and both Interventions, so the only real issue that it caused me was the loss of my convenience mark at Tel Uvirith.

An Altmer Apprentice would be more challenging in Oblivion, where the change to 2xInt base maximum magicka and continuous magicka regeneration made magicka bonuses less valuable even for pure-spellcasting characters and the change to having Weakness to Magicka affect all magical effects rather than just the non-elemental magical effects made Weakness to Magicka much worse. Topping it off, the Apprentice's Weakness to Magicka went from 50% in Morrowind to 100% in Oblivion.

For Morrowind, I'd think that stacking the Lord's 100% Weakness to Fire with the Altmer's innate 50% Weakness to Fire would probably be much worse than stacking the Apprentice's 50% Weakness to Magicka with the Altmer's innate 50% Weakness to Magicka, and as long as you're planning to cast spells somewhat regularly I'd rate the Apprentice's bonus of +1.5xInt maximum magicka more highly than I'd rate the Lord's bonus of the Blood of the North spell (15 magicka, Restore Health 2 for 30 seconds, 100% chance to cast regardless of Restoration skill and fatigue). 15 magicka is kind of expensive for regular healing, especially on a character who doesn't have enough maximum health to easily take full advantage of it,* the spell can become a bit obsolete later in the game (for example, the standard Restoration spell Regeneration costs 15 magicka and provides Restore Health 1-5 for 20 seconds, giving on average the same total healing in less time, and if you go far enough up the Temple questline or explore the right place you'll find an artifact with a cast-on-use enchantment that gives Restore Health 2 for 30 seconds and some other effects), and at a magnitude of only 2 it's not a very good emergency heal in most situations, unlike for example the Mara's Gift power from the Ritual birthsign or the standard Restoration spell Hearth Heal (13 magicka, Restore Health 20-80). The Apprentice's bonus of +1.5xInt maximum magicka, by contrast, never really goes obsolete as long as you continue spells (which, granted, you might more or less stop doing at some point, cast-on-use items being what they are in Morrowind).

*I acknowledge that, since Blood of the North is healing over time, characters with less than 61 maximum health can still take full advantage of it as long as they're taking damage while the spell is in effect.

[Mando Knight]

I can only think of two reasons to play LE right now. First is if there's a mod you just can't live with that hasn't been ported, and even that isn't that big of an issue if you're capable of converting them yourself. The second reason is if you have a schedule you need to stick to, as the updates to Creation Club can break SKSE64.

Set Skyrim to only update when you launch it and you'll never have this problem, since you'll be launching through SKSE instead.

[Sajiri]

The only mods I would really miss would be the MihailMods (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/users/37834630?tab=user+files), because some of those creatures are really cool. I am unsure if they are something that can be ported over with any level of ease.

[veti]

There are a handful of Oldrim mods I still miss, most notably Better Fast Travel. But collectively they're not enough to tempt me back from Special Edition. Really the only reason I still give it disc space is in case I get the urge to play Enderal again, which seems pretty unlikely but you never know.

[Divayth Fyr]

For Morrowind, I'd think that stacking the Lord's 100% Weakness to Fire with the Altmer's innate 50% Weakness to Fire would probably be much worse than stacking the Apprentice's 50% Weakness to Magicka with the Altmer's innate 50% Weakness to Magicka
Indeed. And for added suicidalness you can throw in vampirism - for another 50% weakness to fire. Have fun dying whenever as much as a lit match is thrown at you ;)

[Celestia]

Altmer in Morrowind only had the 50% weaknesses to Fire and Magicka; the Weaknesses to Frost and Shock were only 25%. Oblivion dropped the 50% Weakness to Magicka and reduced the Weakness to Fire down to 25%, bringing it in line with the vulnerability to Shock and Frost.


I agree with Divayth Fyr; the additional Weakness to Magicka from the Apprentice birthsign really isn't that much of an issue in Morrowind. Even doubling down on the innate 50% Weakness to Magicka with the 50% Weakness to Magicka from the Apprentice birthsign, the Altmer's elemental weaknesses - especially the 50% Weakness to Fire - are a much more serious vulnerability for an Altmer character than Weakness to Magicka is. Beyond that, the Apprentice is the second-best birthsign for a spellcaster in Morrowind - only the Atronach is better, and the Mage is much worse even with the Altmer's innate bonus to maximum magicka reducing the relative advantage - and Altmer starting bonuses heavily incentivize a spellcasting character if you care at all about optimization, so unless you're not planning to do much of any spellcasting I'd say that an Altmer Apprentice character looks at least somewhat optimized. The only reason I wouldn't recommend taking the Apprentice birthsign for a spellcaster build in Morrowind is that the Atronach is simply better; I think the only time I've ever found Stunted Magicka to be much of an issue in Morrowind was one time when I didn't take enough potions with me and followed the main quest into Kogoruhn ... but by that point in the game I had magic items for Mark, Recall, and both Interventions, so the only real issue that it caused me was the loss of my convenience mark at Tel Uvirith.

An Altmer Apprentice would be more challenging in Oblivion, where the change to 2xInt base maximum magicka and continuous magicka regeneration made magicka bonuses less valuable even for pure-spellcasting characters and the change to having Weakness to Magicka affect all magical effects rather than just the non-elemental magical effects made Weakness to Magicka much worse. Topping it off, the Apprentice's Weakness to Magicka went from 50% in Morrowind to 100% in Oblivion.

For Morrowind, I'd think that stacking the Lord's 100% Weakness to Fire with the Altmer's innate 50% Weakness to Fire would probably be much worse than stacking the Apprentice's 50% Weakness to Magicka with the Altmer's innate 50% Weakness to Magicka, and as long as you're planning to cast spells somewhat regularly I'd rate the Apprentice's bonus of +1.5xInt maximum magicka more highly than I'd rate the Lord's bonus of the Blood of the North spell (15 magicka, Restore Health 2 for 30 seconds, 100% chance to cast regardless of Restoration skill and fatigue). 15 magicka is kind of expensive for regular healing, especially on a character who doesn't have enough maximum health to easily take full advantage of it,* the spell can become a bit obsolete later in the game (for example, the standard Restoration spell Regeneration costs 15 magicka and provides Restore Health 1-5 for 20 seconds, giving on average the same total healing in less time, and if you go far enough up the Temple questline or explore the right place you'll find an artifact with a cast-on-use enchantment that gives Restore Health 2 for 30 seconds and some other effects), and at a magnitude of only 2 it's not a very good emergency heal in most situations, unlike for example the Mara's Gift power from the Ritual birthsign or the standard Restoration spell Hearth Heal (13 magicka, Restore Health 20-80). The Apprentice's bonus of +1.5xInt maximum magicka, by contrast, never really goes obsolete as long as you continue spells (which, granted, you might more or less stop doing at some point, cast-on-use items being what they are in Morrowind).

*I acknowledge that, since Blood of the North is healing over time, characters with less than 61 maximum health can still take full advantage of it as long as they're taking damage while the spell is in effect.
You make a compelling case, and I now realize just how long it's been since I played Morrowind.

[Caelestion]

Well, you know what to do, then. :smallsmile:

[Spore]

[So much math about mages]

I always love when mages get exponentially more powerful for just knowing which spell to use when, how to optimize their build and calculate. It is the ultimate: "Eff yea, I'm gonna minmax this dragon to bloody pieces."

The only thing that is more enjoyable to me would be a caster having to solve simple equations for every cast. The fast you type, the faster you cast. Right answer means success, wrong answer means failure of the spell.

But that is horrible, HORRIBLE gameplay design. *stares at 3.P's Arithmancy* :smallannoyed:

[Silverraptor]

Navigate to the Skyrim folder, and there should be one called Data. Most main mod files go in there.

Hey, just to be clear on using the unofficial patch, did you mean putting it directly into the folder for Skyrim in the Steam directory? And if so, is it just a simple matter of dropping the file for the patch in there and walking away, causing the patch to automatically be applied?

[The Jack]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDyNLoOcXHKCSSQsHXd9_82gQBh7yx4 pqfz1-ak1Tk4PntSRQr0Q

I've felt like they should've said the cross band along the torso was some kind of cultural nordic thing, like you wear one when you go on some nordic right of passage and it marks you as someone who's done something impressive or is on a quest to do something impressive. They must go slay something impressive wearing no armour but the harness above the waist, after which they're free to wear it over armour and put a nice metal thing over the front of the harness to say challenge done or something.

By the same token, it's something non-nords should rarely ever wear (maybe orcs, as a sign they've killed a nord...) . It's too cold for them. When I see an argonian wearing one...

[Ogremindes]

Hey, just to be clear on using the unofficial patch, did you mean putting it directly into the folder for Skyrim in the Steam directory? And if so, is it just a simple matter of dropping the file for the patch in there and walking away, causing the patch to automatically be applied?

Within Steam's Skyrim folder (the one that contains Skyrim.exe) is a folder named Data. You put the contents of the Unofficial Patch's .7z archive in that Data folder (the contents being a .esp file, a .bsa file, a .ini and a Docs folder).

[Silverraptor]

Within Steam's Skyrim folder (the one that contains Skyrim.exe) is a folder named Data. You put the contents of the Unofficial Patch's .7z archive in that Data folder (the contents being a .esp file, a .bsa file, a .ini and a Docs folder).

Okay, thank you.:smallsmile:

[Ogremindes]

Okay, thank you.:smallsmile:

Oh, and you have to activate the mod... I think the classic Skyrim launcher has a Data Files section for that purpose.

[Silverraptor]

Oh, and you have to activate the mod... I think the classic Skyrim launcher has a Data Files section for that purpose.

Okay. I opened the data files, but I don't see the Unofficial patch. It is still a 7z file. Do I need to change it to one of the file types you mentioned earlier? And if so, how do I go about doing that?

[Mando Knight]

Okay. I opened the data files, but I don't see the Unofficial patch. It is still a 7z file. Do I need to change it to one of the file types you mentioned earlier? And if so, how do I go about doing that?

7z is an archive format, similar to a zip or rar file. Get 7-Zip (https://www.7-zip.org/) (the open source file archive software that 7z originates from) to extract the actual game files, which are what go into the Data folder.

Mod managers like Vortex or MO2 also recognize archived mods and will extract them appropriately.

[Silverraptor]

7z is an archive format, similar to a zip or rar file. Get 7-Zip (https://www.7-zip.org/) (the open source file archive software that 7z originates from) to extract the actual game files, which are what go into the Data folder.

Mod managers like Vortex or MO2 also recognize archived mods and will extract them appropriately.

Thank you. That looks like it may have did it. The Unofficial patch appears in the data files of the loading screen. Will see if my issue is resolved tomorrow.:smallsmile:

[Sajiri]

I just installed Skyrim SE and am about to start setting up mods while Im thinking what kind of character I want to play. I still love mages, but think I'll try something different this time.

Any ideas for playing a bard type character in skyrim? The obvious would be the Become a Bard mod, but actual gameplay Im unsure. Im thinking a spellblade, using 1h weapons and illusion magic. Ordinator is a given, since iirc it even had perks for playing spellblades.

[LibraryOgre]

I just installed Skyrim SE and am about to start setting up mods while Im thinking what kind of character I want to play. I still love mages, but think I'll try something different this time.

Any ideas for playing a bard type character in skyrim? The obvious would be the Become a Bard mod, but actual gameplay Im unsure. Im thinking a spellblade, using 1h weapons and illusion magic. Ordinator is a given, since iirc it even had perks for playing spellblades.

I find illusion works great at low levels... I can buy Fury in Riverwood (?) and use it on the bandits in the Barrow. Calm and Rally-type spells are also good, and it's easy to turn them into a levelling engine... casting Muffle as you walk along to build your Illusion skill. The various perks really help, but I come to detest the level cap... it's too easy to exceed it before you get the boosters to improve your effective calm/fury level.

[Celestia]

I find illusion works great at low levels... I can buy Fury in Riverwood (?) and use it on the bandits in the Barrow. Calm and Rally-type spells are also good, and it's easy to turn them into a levelling engine... casting Muffle as you walk along to build your Illusion skill. The various perks really help, but I come to detest the level cap... it's too easy to exceed it before you get the boosters to improve your effective calm/fury level.
The only thing illusion is good for in Skyrim is level grinding. (Have you ever tried casting Harmony in Whiterun?) Even at low levels when the spells actually function, it still tends to be quicker and easier to just use destruction or conjuration to kill your foes.

[Keltest]

The only thing illusion is good for in Skyrim is level grinding. (Have you ever tried casting Harmony in Whiterun?) Even at low levels when the spells actually function, it still tends to be quicker and easier to just use destruction or conjuration to kill your foes.

Watching bandits slaughter each other is hilarious though. And its really nice for thief characters.

[Balmas]

Three words: Use Magic Device. Go down the enchanting tree for staves and scrolls, and go ham with the magic you weren't born with.

[factotum]

Watching bandits slaughter each other is hilarious though. And its really nice for thief characters.

Yeah, this. If you want to min-max Skyrim and kill everything as efficiently as possible you wouldn't be going down the magic route anyway, at least not without mods--magic is for when you want a bit of variety beyond "Hit with sharp stick until dead".

[Resileaf]

Yeah, this. If you want to min-max Skyrim and kill everything as efficiently as possible you wouldn't be going down the magic route anyway, at least not without mods--magic is for when you want a bit of variety beyond "Hit with sharp stick until dead".

Yeah, really, not every game is about being as efficient as possible. For some people it's just fun to play a character who has flaws or who isn't optimized. Or even to just take a role in a role-playing game (imagine that).

[Ogremindes]

I just installed Skyrim SE and am about to start setting up mods while Im thinking what kind of character I want to play. I still love mages, but think I'll try something different this time.

Any ideas for playing a bard type character in skyrim? The obvious would be the Become a Bard mod, but actual gameplay Im unsure. Im thinking a spellblade, using 1h weapons and illusion magic. Ordinator is a given, since iirc it even had perks for playing spellblades.


I find illusion works great at low levels... I can buy Fury in Riverwood (?) and use it on the bandits in the Barrow. Calm and Rally-type spells are also good, and it's easy to turn them into a levelling engine... casting Muffle as you walk along to build your Illusion skill. The various perks really help, but I come to detest the level cap... it's too easy to exceed it before you get the boosters to improve your effective calm/fury level.


The only thing illusion is good for in Skyrim is level grinding. (Have you ever tried casting Harmony in Whiterun?) Even at low levels when the spells actually function, it still tends to be quicker and easier to just use destruction or conjuration to kill your foes.

With Ordinator, illusion is not just viable, it's OP as all get-out.

For mod suggestions, since you're using Ordinator you may as well grab Enai's other overhauls. In particular: Apocalypse and Summermyst for magic and either Wildcat of Smilodon for combat in general, but there's also overhauls for races, standing stones, vampires and Shouts.

Speaking of Shouts, be sure to check out Ordinator's speech tree. It has a number of bard-themed powers, and a branch dedicated to Shouting. I'm planning a bard/thief character myself, and I was thinking of making that character a Voice-master eventually.

Oh, and if you dig around the posts for Become a Bard you should be able to find a list of console commands to configure the mod. In my past game I turned on exp for performing and npc dancing, both of which are off by default. I wish I still had a link to the list, but I guess the link format changed.

[Silverraptor]

Dammit! Even with the Unofficial Skyrim patch, I still can't purchase Children Bedrooms!:smallmad: I hate this bug and it seems like something so basic that it should have been fixed by the real developers long ago!

[veti]

Even at low levels when the spells actually function, it still tends to be quicker and easier to just use destruction or conjuration to kill your foes.

Illusion works just fine, right up to the highest levels, if you just invest the perks in it - which seems like a reasonable requirement for a character who specialises in that. Frenzy plus dual cast plus relevant perks - affects targets well over level 50. Without potions.

[Spore]

Illusion works just fine, right up to the highest levels, if you just invest the perks in it - which seems like a reasonable requirement for a character who specialises in that. Frenzy plus dual cast plus relevant perks - affects targets well over level 50. Without potions.

Maybe the frustration stems from the non-inclusion of Dominate spells in the master level. I do not need a ritual speed AoE calm/frenzy/fear. I want a (permanent) non undead thrall.

[factotum]

Maybe the frustration stems from the non-inclusion of Dominate spells in the master level. I do not need a ritual speed AoE calm/frenzy/fear. I want a (permanent) non undead thrall.

You can have permanent Atronachs as well as undead, even in the base game?

[Spore]

You can have permanent Atronachs as well as undead, even in the base game?

Is it part of the Illusion tree though? Aren't you simply IGNORING the topic at hand?

[factotum]

Is it part of the Illusion tree though? Aren't you simply IGNORING the topic at hand?

Permanent undead thralls aren't Illusion either, so you ignored it first. (Mum, Sporeegg is being nasty to me!!! :smallwink:).

[The Jack]

Magic in skyrim is painful. Best spell is conjure dremora (lord?), because that summons the fighter you arent.

I really liked shooting those slow moving blizzard balls at people. It was the best destruction delivery device for the most resisted damage type. Killed a lot of compabions with it, but spent most of the game running away for the mana of this and dremora.

[Ailurus]

Permanent undead thralls aren't Illusion either, so you ignored it first. (Mum, Sporeegg is being nasty to me!!! :smallwink:).

I'm pretty sure Sporeegg's point is that he wants a permanent dominate effect spell so he can pick some NPC and force him/her/it to be his permanent meatshield (hence why he specified non-undead). However, even if there was a mster-level spell for that the sad fact is the master-level illusion spells are just terrible (outside of power-leveling in cities). At even mid-tier levels you need to dual-cast the spells to get the effective level boost or they become useless, and the master spells cannot be dual-cast. Harmony, for example, with all perks will never hit anything above level 43. Pacify, with just the dual-cast perk can hit 44 and dual-cast with perks can hit up to 83.

[Celestia]

Magic in skyrim is painful. Best spell is conjure dremora (lord?), because that summons the fighter you arent.

I really liked shooting those slow moving blizzard balls at people. It was the best destruction delivery device for the most resisted damage type. Killed a lot of compabions with it, but spent most of the game running away for the mana of this and dremora.
Destruction spamming is a lot easier with cost reduction. The last mage I played used enchantment to get 96% cost reduction. The expert level spells cost 3 magicka to cast.

[Resileaf]

Destruction spamming is a lot easier with cost reduction. The last mage I played used enchantment to get 96% cost reduction. The expert level spells cost 3 magicka to cast.

The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.

[Celestia]

The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.
It's not really an "exploit" if I was just doing what the game intended. I didn't even do the alchemy/enchantment back and forth stacking. I just stuck 32% on three pieces of equipment. Besides, without massive cost reduction, the expert spells are unusably bad.

Now, a real exploit is the soul trap/fortify attribute trick in Morrowind that let me boost all my stats into the thousands. (Except speed. Trust me, you do not want to boost your speed above ~200.)

[Resileaf]

It's not really an "exploit" if I was just doing what the game intended. I didn't even do the alchemy/enchantment back and forth stacking. I just stuck 32% on three pieces of equipment. Besides, without massive cost reduction, the expert spells are unusably bad.

Now, a real exploit is the soul trap/fortify attribute trick in Morrowind that let me boost all my stats into the thousands. (Except speed. Trust me, you do not want to boost your speed above ~200.)

Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.

[Celestia]

Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.
Ah, I never had that problem. I don't think I boosted my stats high enough for that.

[veti]

Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.

And this would be a problem because...?

[Resileaf]

And this would be a problem because...?

Because then you have to repair your weapon and repairing your weapon after every single hit would be tedious.

[Caelestion]

So instead you punch people. Much better.

[Talion]

And this would be a problem because...?

It also causes an interesting break in the main quest if, like a rampaging dork, you decide to smack the Heart with everything you have, thereby 'killing' it. This removes it from the game, but since the enchantments upon it weren't removed, Akulakhan doesn't fall to pieces and Dagoth Ur sticks around (at least until you hit him equally hard). Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.

Edit: Mind, for those who aren't in the know, this is normally impossible as both Dagoth Ur and the Heart of Lorkhan have 1,000 health each and regenerate dozens, if not hundreds, of health points per frame.

[Resileaf]

So instead you punch people. Much better.

But punching people is governed by your speed stat in Morrowind, and since you don't want speed to be too high because the game gets unplayable (or even crashes), your punches don't hit quite hard enough!

[Divayth Fyr]

But punching people is governed by your speed stat in Morrowind, and since you don't want speed to be too high because the game gets unplayable (or even crashes), your punches don't hit quite hard enough!
While speed is the governing attribute for the skill, it isn't taken into account when calculating damage. In fact, no attribute is - only the skill level and target's armor matter.

[veti]

So instead you punch people. Much better.

This.


It also causes an interesting break in the main quest if, like a rampaging dork, you decide to smack the Heart with everything you have, thereby 'killing' it. This removes it from the game, but since the enchantments upon it weren't removed, Akulakhan doesn't fall to pieces and Dagoth Ur sticks around (at least until you hit him equally hard). Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.

Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

Seems unsatisfying somehow.

But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?

[Keltest]

This.



Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

Seems unsatisfying somehow.

But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?

Nah, that's about it. Morrowind is old, so they only had so much ability to program in a dramatic death for Dagoth Ur. I think you jumped the gun a little by stabbing him, you aren't really meant to be watching him when they despawn him.

[DigoDragon]

I think you jumped the gun a little by stabbing him

I dunno. It's kind of hard to ignore that basic instinct. :smallbiggrin:



(Except speed. Trust me, you do not want to boost your speed above ~200.)

Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?

[The_Jackal]

The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.

I wouldn't describe stacking enchantments as an exploit. It's just the game as designed. Let's not pretend that there's no opportunity cost or resource investment in stacking fortify school enchantments on your equipment. Also, it's not like wanging on enemies with a blade or a bow costs any consumable resource.


Is it part of the Illusion tree though? Aren't you simply IGNORING the topic at hand?

I wasn't aware there was any illusion spell in the base game which converts a NPC into a permanent ally, in the way that Dead Thrall does. All you get are calm, fury, fear, and courage. But honestly, is there anything in the game you can't tackle with that kit, plus a retainer?


I'm pretty sure Sporeegg's point is that he wants a permanent dominate effect spell so he can pick some NPC and force him/her/it to be his permanent meatshield (hence why he specified non-undead). However, even if there was a mster-level spell for that the sad fact is the master-level illusion spells are just terrible (outside of power-leveling in cities). At even mid-tier levels you need to dual-cast the spells to get the effective level boost or they become useless, and the master spells cannot be dual-cast. Harmony, for example, with all perks will never hit anything above level 43. Pacify, with just the dual-cast perk can hit 44 and dual-cast with perks can hit up to 83.

Eh, Harmony is AOE. Given the rather large radius, and the fact that most enemies in your vicinity won't actually be above level 40 anyway, it's perfectly good for quickly neutralizing a large number of enemies in your vicinity, letting you use your single target Expert spell on the few enemies too dangerous to be affected by your AOE combat reset button.

[Celestia]

Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?
Imagine you're the Flash, but you have the reaction time of a normal person. So, you lightly tap the movement button and immediately shoot all the way to the end of the room and smack into the wall. Trying to navigate is almost impossible, and that's just indoors. Outside, it's even worse, and there's a good chance you'll just crash the game from trying to load too much too quickly.

[Resileaf]

Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

Seems unsatisfying somehow.

But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?

You don't actually have to stab Dagoth after the Heart is destroyed. He despawns on his own.

What basically happens is that when you start stabbing the Heart, Dagoth teleports to be right behind you (in case you left him so high up on the way down he couldn't catch up to you) to try and stop you. But destroying the Heart doesn't take long, so he doesn't really have time to attack you, so he gets immediately into his death throes, and vanishes without a trace.

[Triaxx]

Do we really need to go accusing each other when we have a perfectly good Dev to blame?

[The Jack]

I feel like stacking -reduce spell costs- on your equipment ti the degree skyrim allows would have been better off as a bug rather than a feature, because it's a **** feature.

[The_Jackal]

I feel like stacking -reduce spell costs- on your equipment ti the degree skyrim allows would have been better off as a bug rather than a feature, because it's a **** feature.

Why? Why should you be able to swing your sword or shoot your bow tirelessly for nothing, yet run out of Magicka after casting 2 master-level spells? Look, I'll freely admit that Bethesda isn't the best for play-testing and balancing their game systems, but I'd argue that even *with* infinite spells, spellcasting in Skyrim is far inferior to weapons with a similar investment in supporting perks and skills. With the right mix of crafting and weapon perks, you can make your Dovahkiin an invincible demigod.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.

I dunno, from a metaphysical perspective that sounds like typical Elder Scrolls to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Spore]

Permanent undead thralls aren't Illusion either, so you ignored it first. (Mum, Sporeegg is being nasty to me!!! :smallwink:).

I said thralls. Mechanically indifferent from companions but roleplaywise VERY different. Basically what if you could have Maven Blackbriar suddenly be your meat shield? Beefed up with armor, weapons and supporting illusion spells to rip a dragon a new one?

Then you'd have greatness!


The best stories of Elder Scrolls game involve mechanic exploits to completely break the game to your advantage.

If you imply that TES stories are not fun or good, I disagree. If you imply some glitches are hilarious, I agree.


Apparently you don't want to boost your strength too high either because your weapon breaks instantly from just how hard you hit.

In a manner of silly superhuman anime style, it is hilarious.


It also causes an interesting break in the main quest if, like a rampaging dork, you decide to smack the Heart with everything you have, thereby 'killing' it. This removes it from the game, but since the enchantments upon it weren't removed, Akulakhan doesn't fall to pieces and Dagoth Ur sticks around (at least until you hit him equally hard). Thereafter you're stuck in a bit of an end game limbo where you've technically succeeded and utterly failed all at the same time.

Edit: Mind, for those who aren't in the know, this is normally impossible as both Dagoth Ur and the Heart of Lorkhan have 1,000 health each and regenerate dozens, if not hundreds, of health points per frame.

And there aren't spells or custom weapon enchants that simply reduce the regeneration to zero?


This.



Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

Seems unsatisfying somehow.

But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?

Basically the same. It didn't feel so much like the Lord of the Rings finale in the active volcano as much as walking into the doom fortress unplugging the evil lich's phyalctery charger.


Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?

Ever used the Icarus scroll that you look from the falling Wizard? Crank that speed up to 10x. You basically cross loading zones before the world has spawned around you, making the game crash. One thing most gamers forget nowadays with "seamlesss open worlds" is that the prevalent technology is still that the game just loads the area in the vicinity. If you are in Sadrith Mora, Vivec city is not there, it is stored in the game data, and then modified by your save file data if it is loaded.

As an aside, I hate how the interactive design of TES (you can move even minor useless objects) leads sometimes to gigantic save files that won't load anymore because the game has to make sure it removes and topples every bowl and bottle I have ever touched. Cell resets could be a bit more regular imho. My nord warrior save loads almost 2 minutes.


I wouldn't describe stacking enchantments as an exploit. It's just the game as designed. Let's not pretend that there's no opportunity cost or resource investment in stacking fortify school enchantments on your equipment. Also, it's not like wanging on enemies with a blade or a bow costs any consumable resource.

And it is bad design. Rogue skill design? Make locks easier to pick, give better prices at markets, make potions stronger. Warrior skill design? Make armor stronger, weapons sharper. Mage skill design? Everything is cheaper. No, your fireball will not hit for more damage. Ignoring fire resistance? What do you think you are? Some kind of WIZARD?


I wasn't aware there was any illusion spell in the base game which converts a NPC into a permanent ally, in the way that Dead Thrall does. All you get are calm, fury, fear, and courage. But honestly, is there anything in the game you can't tackle with that kit, plus a retainer.

That is not the POINT my friend. I could tackle the flipping game with a good onehanded sword and a naked character as long as I have enough health potions and an suitably strong smithing and alchemy skill.

The point is that illusion - or rather enchantment if you use D&D terms - is used to dominate the minds of others. And what is greater than the complete dominance of an entire character. The only thing I could imagine speaking against this is the problem that people just used quest NPCs as their dominated minions before they are tagged essential.

And you know Bethesda. You can't simply screw yourself out of a quest. That would be bad!


I feel like stacking -reduce spell costs- on your equipment ti the degree skyrim allows would have been better off as a bug rather than a feature, because it's a **** feature.

Agreed. While switching the enchantments to "do x% more damage" is equally stupid after a certain point since your novice spells create a demonic inferno, I'd basically do "do x/2 % more damage, spells cost x/2% less magicka" today if I were making a mod.

[veti]

Okay, I'll bite. How bad is it if you boost your speed past 200?

I think this case is being overstated. Speed is the one stat that I have had over 200 - probably close to 300, even, using a legit in-game artifact - and while it's a bit of a shock at first, you pretty soon get used to it.

[Balmas]

Anybody else watching Sorcererdave's Skyrim let's play? It's impressing two things--no, let's say three things--on me.

First is that I desperately want to play a mage again.

The second is that the earliest stages of the game are the most fun. You know, the stages where you desperately struggle to defeat anything? It means that you approach the game differently than you do when you can face-tank anything the game can throw at you. You strategize, you think, you panic when a plan goes wrong, you exult over a fallen foe because the plan went right. Half of that is the Yet Another Skyrim Hardcore mod he's using, which I want to steal for my own next playthrough.

The third realization is that Chadwick, my Skyrim LP character is... well, he needs nerfs. For my own enjoyment of the game, I think I need to recreate his gear, but without such strong enchantments and smithing bonuses. Being weaker means I'll be able to keep going a lot longer while still enjoying myself, as right now he's in that unfortunate Bethesda end-game state where nothing can challenge him anymore.


I think this case is being overstated. Speed is the one stat that I have had over 200 - probably close to 300, even, using a legit in-game artifact - and while it's a bit of a shock at first, you pretty soon get used to it.

Aye, agreed. My Morrowind Let's Play character, Chord the Bard, has about 300 speed when he's wearing the Boots of Blinding Speed. He'll hit the edge of loaded chunks and require a few seconds' worth of "area loading," but it's not catastrophic or game-breaking.

With that said, there is a gamebreaking bug with excess Speed, which is that when you hit a certain amount of it, you get fast enough to clip through the world. If you look up Morrowind speedruns, you can beat the game in under three minutes by using a scroll of Icarian Flight to jump to the final dungeons, grabbing Keening, and hotswapping between weapons to simultaneously avoid dying and gain enough speed to clip through the world straight to the end of the dungeons.

[factotum]

I said thralls.

Which is where the confusion started, because the spells for permanently summoning things have "Thrall" in the title--e.g. Dead Thrall will permanently summon an undead companion, Storm Thrall a Storm Atronach, etc.

[DigoDragon]

Imagine you're the Flash, but you have the reaction time of a normal person. So, you lightly tap the movement button and immediately shoot all the way to the end of the room and smack into the wall. Trying to navigate is almost impossible, and that's just indoors. Outside, it's even worse, and there's a good chance you'll just crash the game from trying to load too much too quickly.

Ah, so about as well as I imagined. I've fallen through world floors before, in games when the world failed to load said floor in time for me.



As an aside, I hate how the interactive design of TES (you can move even minor useless objects) leads sometimes to gigantic save files that won't load anymore because the game has to make sure it removes and topples every bowl and bottle I have ever touched. Cell resets could be a bit more regular imho. My nord warrior save loads almost 2 minutes.

This was the one big downside I had with the Fallout 3/NV mods that added more interior places to explore. The mod creators just littered these new rooms with so much extra loose junk that the save bloat was crazy. Cell reset mods are practically required in my mod lists if I want to play a character for a long while.

[Triaxx]

Auto-purge is essential to playing F3/NV.

I've been trying to watch, but honestly what it's done isn't make the game enjoyable as much as it has tedious. Oh a skeever... and it takes 5 minutes to kill it. I mean... theoretically it should be the simplest thing in the game to kill. And instead he spends 5 minutes faffing about. Honestly I prefer something like Wildcat where you either succeed or die brutally, but either way it's a fast death.

Of course I have avoided the 'nothing is any challenge' issue by building my character towards a tremendous alpha, so even things with a ton of HP go down quickly, but if I don't manage to kill them, they insta-kill me. Dragons for instance, are still incredibly dangerous, if they don't make the mistake of putting themselves where I can alpha them, and they usually don't. Makes the game still enjoyable, no matter how much damage I can send down range.

[Talion]

Interesting. I've always felt that the final fight was slightly broken. What happens for me is, I hit the heart, as prescribed, with Sunder and Keening. Dagoth Ur screams at me not to, but that seems like a good thing. When the heart is hit repeatedly, it sort of whittles down - gets smaller until it disappears completely. Then I turn around and start hitting Dagoth Ur, and after a couple of blows to the face he just vanishes, leaving not a wrack behind.

Seems unsatisfying somehow.

But Azura is pleased, the sky is blue, the Ghostfence is gone - clearly the job is done.

I've done this at least four times, without any real exploits or cheating, and it's always the same. Is this not how it's supposed to go?


Yes, that's how it is meant to be done without cheats/exploits. Wear Wraithguard to not automatically die from equipping Sunder, give the heart a smack, switch to Keening, and start stabbing until the heart loses its bindings to Mundus and goes who knows where.

On the other hand, if you cheat/exploit your way to several hundred Strength and Weapon Skill, and hit quickly enough you'll get the situation I described (along with instantly breaking whatever weapon you were wielding at the time). Which does not resolve the main quest, please Azura, or otherwise help Morrowind. At least, in whatever capacity of 'help' your actions could be considered, given what all happens to the province over the course of the next two games.

[Alabenson]

I'm starting a new playthrough of Skyrim and I'm just wondering if anyone has any mod recommendations for someone who's only played vanilla previously.

[Keltest]

I'm starting a new playthrough of Skyrim and I'm just wondering if anyone has any mod recommendations for someone who's only played vanilla previously.

I highly recommend the Ordinator talent rework. It turns them into something that actually allows you to customize your character instead of something necessary to have basic functionality in your chosen skill.

[Caelestion]

Campfire and Frostfall, both by Chesko, are amazing mods. As noted, YASH2 is a minimalist overhaul, which makes the start of the game much harder. Betrayal at Hrothgar apparently allows you to auto-complete the Civil War, if that's not your thing.


Anybody else watching Sorcererdave's Skyrim let's play? It's impressing two things--no, let's say three things--on me.

I watch nearly everything he releases. :)

[Balmas]

I'm starting a new playthrough of Skyrim and I'm just wondering if anyone has any mod recommendations for someone who's only played vanilla previously.

Well, the difficult thing here is that Skyrim can be modded virtually any way you want. I find that before I assemble a modlist, it's useful to know in advance what style of experience you're looking for, as well as what kind of character you're probably going to be playing. A mage will want different mods than a thief, after all.

Regardless of the above, I think that YASH or the EnaiSiaion series of mods are good places to start. Both significantly change the game, albeit in different ways.

YASH (Yet Another Skyrim Hardcore mod) is a total overhaul of the game focused on allowing dedicated roleplayers a more immersive and difficult experience. It's perfect for when you want to play as a nobody who has to work their way to glory. For instance, you start at zero in all skills, except for a few racial skills that might manage to get as high as seven in your best skill. Your race affects your character as much as your perks--for instance, Nords have a starting magicka pool of a whopping 5 points, while Bretons and Altmer have 85 and 100 respectfully. Perks are redone, rebalanced, and rearranged. Your skill is important to which gear you can use, with high level gear imposing penalties if you don't actually know how to wear or use them well. What you find out in the world is decoupled from your player level, so when you enter a crypt, you don't know in advance whether it'll be a crypt full of deathlords or one full of the weak, bog-standard draugr. It's a total overhaul mod, so you may need to pick and choose mods which are either compatible with YASH or which will overwrite the changes it makes.

The EnaiSiaion mods are made by a mod creator of the same name. Each mod is designed to be modular, and overhaul one aspect of the game, so you can slot them in as desired. If you're not using YASH, you'll definitely want Ordinator. It's a perk overhaul designed to make skills more active and interesting, instead of passive +x% boosts. It also makes different skills more combat viable. For instance, if you specialize into smithing, you can unlock the ability to craft Dwemer autocannons, turrets which fire at your command. Alchemy has things like oil vials you can dump on the ground to make minefields and poisons that last for a greater number of hits. Enchanting allows you to mix up staves, scrolls, and spells, with different combinations giving different bonuses. Even pickpocket has options like a cursed coin that, when you slip it into somebody's pocket, makes them take much more damage. Light and Heavy Armor are differentiated by their perks into Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier. It's all about making it interesting and flavorful, and most of his mods are like that. I highly recommend Ordinator, Aurora, and Artificer, to start with, as these modify perks, birth-stones, and unique artifacts.


I watch nearly everything he releases. :)

Got a favorite character among his Elder Scrolls videos?

RIP Julan. Couldn't have ended any other way, really, but still sucks to see him go.

[Caelestion]

Idris was a long time ago now, but Arthur is a worthy replacement. I am predisposed to outrageously favour Morrowind though, so the crown would likely have to go to Fathis.

I agree about Julan, but I'd like to have known how that ends. Maybe some time I'll have to do my own play-through with Julan, if I'm not using OpenMW, of course.

[veti]

Ordinator is too much for my tastes. Dwemer autocannons, seriously? At that point I don't feel like it's Skyrim any more.

SPERG is another perk overhaul that also takes out the annoying compulsory perks, creates new synergies between different skills (e.g. the dual-casting perk is under Destruction, but it applies to all schools of magic), but it leaves the basic look and feel of the game intact.

[DomaDoma]

Auto-purge is essential to playing F3/NV.

I've been trying to watch, but honestly what it's done isn't make the game enjoyable as much as it has tedious. Oh a skeever... and it takes 5 minutes to kill it. I mean... theoretically it should be the simplest thing in the game to kill. And instead he spends 5 minutes faffing about. Honestly I prefer something like Wildcat where you either succeed or die brutally, but either way it's a fast death.

Of course I have avoided the 'nothing is any challenge' issue by building my character towards a tremendous alpha, so even things with a ton of HP go down quickly, but if I don't manage to kill them, they insta-kill me. Dragons for instance, are still incredibly dangerous, if they don't make the mistake of putting themselves where I can alpha them, and they usually don't. Makes the game still enjoyable, no matter how much damage I can send down range.

Got New Vegas for Christmas. I am at a stage (I think I may be getting past it with the new VATS perk) where I am killed by Legion assassins every time I try the Nipton or Novac roads. I am retroactively thankful that most game-based assassins, including the Thalmor who are clearly modeled after these guys, aren't actually up to the job description, because there's a difference between a challenge and a nigh-insurmountable speed bump. (Best challenge thus far: repairing the solar plant. That was awesome.)

[Triaxx]

So, turns out, if you know the Legion assassins are coming, they're pretty vulnerable to the grenade rifle/launcher while running a group. (If you don't have the pre-order packs, scrounge around Nipton.)

One of the best things about Bethesda games in general is being able to spice them to individual tastes. I love the Dwemer Autocannon's personally, and that you have to be quite the smith to make them is totally reasonable to me. You don't like them, and can thus pick a different perk mod that leaves them out. (Also the auto-cannon's are finicky to use, require you remain near them and only fire where your cursor is pointing. Plus the projectiles are slow as all get out, so dragons the one thing you'd want to use them against, they can't hit most of the time.)

[DigoDragon]

I'm starting a new playthrough of Skyrim and I'm just wondering if anyone has any mod recommendations for someone who's only played vanilla previously.

SkyUI is a staple everyone approves on. Redoes the interface to make menus more informative and useful. I dunno how I played Skyrim as long as I did without it.

I like Amazing Follower Tweaks (AFT) and Convenient Horses; The first give you controls over how your follower should dress, fight, and act, while the second just makes using horses more... well convenient! The saddlebag for storing items and the whistle to summon them are my favorite bits of the mod.

[Spore]

Ordinator is too much for my tastes. Dwemer autocannons, seriously? At that point I don't feel like it's Skyrim any more.

I agree but then again I simply do not pick those. One thing I am particularly disappointed with is the rework of Enchanting and Smithing while I LOVE the Alchemy rework.

Enchanting suddenly tries to make you use consumables, where smithing gives you said autocannons and make you pick for every smithing perk.

[factotum]

Got New Vegas for Christmas. I am at a stage (I think I may be getting past it with the new VATS perk) where I am killed by Legion assassins every time I try the Nipton or Novac roads.

Odd--I never found the Legion assassins especially dangerous; in fact, I kind of welcomed them showing up, because I knew a free load of good quality armour and weapons was about to come my way! That might be because I tend to play snipers and the assassins don't pack particularly long range weapons (some of them are even melee!) so I usually thin out their numbers before they get close enough to do any harm.

[veti]

By the sound of it this is early in the game, when the best sniper weapon you can hope to be touting is the cowboy repeater, and you haven't yet had the chance to pick up any followers. At that point I've certainly had trouble with the hit squad, especially first time when I didn't know what to expect.

Even with foreknowledge, they're a tough challenge at that stage. My best advice would be, don't skimp. This is no time to be keeping anything in reserve - hit them with everything you have, as fast as possible.

[halfeye]

By the sound of it this is early in the game, when the best sniper weapon you can hope to be touting is the cowboy repeater, and you haven't yet had the chance to pick up any followers.

You can pick up Veronica as soon as you can find her.


At that point I've certainly had trouble with the hit squad, especially first time when I didn't know what to expect.

Even with foreknowledge, they're a tough challenge at that stage. My best advice would be, don't skimp. This is no time to be keeping anything in reserve - hit them with everything you have, as fast as possible.

Or climb up somewhere they can't follow, then shoot them from range. Works for most opponents.

[The Jack]

I always found the legion really easy to deal with because they're poorly armoured and using melee weapons in a game with poor AI. Kill the one with a gun and just run away if it's really a problem.

But why're we discussing the legion here



Also, don't compare the thalmor to the legion. The Legion make sense, the Thalmor are a mixture of metaphysical buffoonery and contrivances to make them powerful.


Avoiding the oblivion gates and making the moon disappear to get the Khajiit on your side is great, but they've got to be overextending to have any influence in skyrim. Especially when hammerfell did alright and High rock/Skyrim are behind it.

[Spore]

Also, don't compare the thalmor to the legion. The Legion make sense, the Thalmor are a mixture of metaphysical buffoonery and contrivances to make them powerful.

I am sure the ingame stats are somewhat exaggerated and high elves can produce qualified swordsmen but I have always wondered how they would fare on the battlefield. What we see in Skyrim are Thalmor Warriors who use onehanded, block, restoration magic and sneak as well as light armor.

Still I feel their spread is oddly...mundane. No bound weapons? No enchanted armor? I mean the magic artifacts ingame derive some meaning from the environment being rather mundane but the Thalmor of all people should have well-equipped forces.

[Keltest]

I am sure the ingame stats are somewhat exaggerated and high elves can produce qualified swordsmen but I have always wondered how they would fare on the battlefield. What we see in Skyrim are Thalmor Warriors who use onehanded, block, restoration magic and sneak as well as light armor.

Still I feel their spread is oddly...mundane. No bound weapons? No enchanted armor? I mean the magic artifacts ingame derive some meaning from the environment being rather mundane but the Thalmor of all people should have well-equipped forces.

Remember that the Thalmor are at least nominally restricted in what they can bring in both by logistics (theyre on the other end of the continent to their home base) and laws (theyre in what is functionally a hostile nation under invitation for a specific purpose). If they were to bring in a bunch of super assassin equipment and the Empire got wind of it, then they would take it and give it to their own people, and in the short term, the Thalmor would not be able to stop them.

[Triaxx]

Ordinator's smithing rework is actually amazing. It's not an either or choice. You pick light or heavy with the first perk, then if you invest in a second level you get the other perk. So instead of wasting a perk on Elven you can grab advanced and Orcish on the same level and then continue through the heavy tree. (Because plate requires Advanced that's otherwise in the light armor side of the tree.)

[Resileaf]

Remember that the Thalmor are at least nominally restricted in what they can bring in both by logistics (theyre on the other end of the continent to their home base) and laws (theyre in what is functionally a hostile nation under invitation for a specific purpose). If they were to bring in a bunch of super assassin equipment and the Empire got wind of it, then they would take it and give it to their own people, and in the short term, the Thalmor would not be able to stop them.

Yeah, exactly this. The Thalmor have to keep up appearances and at least appear normal to their enemies lest their appearance be seen as a threat right away. There are so few of them in Skyrim anyway that it would be mighty suspicious if elite troops showed up to protect what seems to just be a tiny embassy.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Yeah, exactly this. The Thalmor have to keep up appearances and at least appear normal to their enemies lest their appearance be seen as a threat right away. There are so few of them in Skyrim anyway that it would be mighty suspicious if elite troops showed up to protect what seems to just be a tiny embassy.

I would also not be surprised if Skyrim is not a prestigious posting by Thalmor standards, so what we're seeing is probably a mix of people who have to be there for their long term goals (like Elenwen) and people who are too low-ranking or otherwise in disgrace to get out of going (like the average foot-soldier).

[The Jack]

In an ideal world
-Nords murder thalmor
-Imperials 'surrender' or 'defect', the imperials retreat from Skyrim.
-High rock, being adjacent to two human countries of strong anti-elf persuasion also leave the empire to join the elf genocide war against the thalmor
-Cyrodil preps an army to 'take back the human islands' and then of course uses it to wipe out thalmor.

intentional loss of troops wouldn't have been so awful.

[Keltest]

In an ideal world
-Nords murder thalmor
-Imperials 'surrender' or 'defect', the imperials retreat from Skyrim.
-High rock, being adjacent to two human countries of strong anti-elf persuasion also leave the empire to join the elf genocide war against the thalmor
-Cyrodil preps an army to 'take back the human islands' and then of course uses it to wipe out thalmor.

intentional loss of troops wouldn't have been so awful.

If the imperials lose control completely, then the Thalmor will just march an army into Skyrim and subjugate the nords. The whole point is that the Empire lacked the military force to fight the Aldmeri Dominion, which is silly IMO, but it is what it is.

[Resileaf]

If the imperials lose control completely, then the Thalmor will just march an army into Skyrim and subjugate the nords. The whole point is that the Empire lacked the military force to fight the Aldmeri Dominion, which is silly IMO, but it is what it is.

With the losses from the Oblivion crisis, it's not that surprising that the Aldmeri Dominion would have, if not a number advantage, then at least a quality advantage. Many legionaires would have been lost to the Daedra, and that can't be replaced easily or quickly, especially the troops stationned in the Imperial City. The Thalmor systematically wiping out the Blades would also greatly reduce the Empire's capacity to defend itself because now they no longer have their spy network to keep them informed. They're blind and weak, and get surprise attacked. Not very good for them.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

With the losses from the Oblivion crisis, it's not that surprising that the Aldmeri Dominion would have, if not a number advantage, then at least a quality advantage. Many legionaires would have been lost to the Daedra, and that can't be replaced easily or quickly, especially the troops stationned in the Imperial City. The Thalmor systematically wiping out the Blades would also greatly reduce the Empire's capacity to defend itself because now they no longer have their spy network to keep them informed. They're blind and weak, and get surprise attacked. Not very good for them.

The Empire still has the Penitus Oculatus though. And they have since at least the mess with Umbriel, and it seemed to be well established then.

Also by the time of Skyrim the Empire has had some time to rebuild since the Oblivion Crisis, and the aforementioned mess with Umbriel. Admittedly the Thalmor weren't hit by the latter at all and the Empire was.

[Keltest]

My bigger problem is that even with the Wood Elves and Khajiit subjugated and largely on their side, the Aldmeri Dominion should still have a fraction of the standing forces of the Empire, and outside of their home territories the imperial soldiers should have both a training and equipment advantage over the Bosmer and Khajiit. Heck, the Redguards alone are apparently able to fairly solidly hold off the Dominion advance with no overt support from the other provinces. Even taking into account that most of hammerfell sucks to march an army through, the Aldmeri forces should be outclassed by the imperial forces.

[Resileaf]

I think it was a plot point that the Legions were just barely holding together after the Oblivion crisis? It's not like the Redguards can come instantly, if the Aldmeri went through Cyrodiil fast enough, it's more than feasable for them to reach the Imperial city before reinforcements arrive. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, reinforcements from Skyrim and Hammerfell only arrived for the retaking of the Imperial City after the Dominion had captured it.

[factotum]

And it's worth noting that the Aldmeri would not have even sat down to negotiate the White Gold Concordat if they were in a position to crush the Empire through military means alone, so they were clearly hurting as well--their failure to take Hammerfell was probably down to the damage their forces took during the Cyrodiil campaign.

Titus Medes II was actually pretty smart to negotiate the Concordat. The parts of the Empire still under his control were almost entirely populated by Men, whereas the Aldmer are Elves--they live longer and breed slower than men do, so will recover slower from battle losses than the Empire does. Given a few decades the Empire can overrun Summerset--Medes is playing the long game here.

[Resileaf]

And it's worth noting that the Aldmeri would not have even sat down to negotiate the White Gold Concordat if they were in a position to crush the Empire through military means alone, so they were clearly hurting as well--their failure to take Hammerfell was probably down to the damage their forces took during the Cyrodiil campaign.

Titus Medes II was actually pretty smart to negotiate the Concordat. The parts of the Empire still under his control were almost entirely populated by Men, whereas the Aldmer are Elves--they live longer and breed slower than men do, so will recover slower from battle losses than the Empire does. Given a few decades the Empire can overrun Summerset--Medes is playing the long game here.

Which is why the Aldmeri are working to destabilize the other provinces. They want to break the unity of men and keep them at each others' throats for as long as possible. Whoever catches their breath first wins the war. They don't want either Skyrim or the Empire to win the civil war, they want it to keep going for as long as possible. Because even if Skyrim secedes and drives out the legions, when war against the Dominion starts over, it's a certainty that Skyrim will ally with the Empire against the elves.

[veti]

You can pick up Veronica as soon as you can find her.
Which is to say, well after the first hit squad encounter. Possibly the second and third.


Still I feel their spread is oddly...mundane. No bound weapons? No enchanted armor?

Thalmor in my game often use bound weapons, and the justiciars at least have enchanted robes. (And use Destruction and occasional Conjuration.) Admittedly it may be a mod making them do this, but if so I don't know which one.


If the imperials lose control completely, then the Thalmor will just march an army into Skyrim and subjugate the nords.
One does not simply march into Skyrim. Starting from Summerset, it's either a long march across territory that varies between unfriendly and outright hostile, or a long voyage around hostile coasts and through the most dangerous waters in Tamriel. And that's without even mentioning the dragons. We're talking about the power that couldn't even mount a successful invasion of Hammerfell, which comparatively speaking is right on their doorstep.


With the losses from the Oblivion crisis, it's not that surprising that the Aldmeri Dominion would have, if not a number advantage, then at least a quality advantage. Many legionaires would have been lost to the Daedra, and that can't be replaced easily or quickly, especially the troops stationned in the Imperial City. The Thalmor systematically wiping out the Blades would also greatly reduce the Empire's capacity to defend itself because now they no longer have their spy network to keep them informed. They're blind and weak, and get surprise attacked. Not very good for them.

The Aldmeri lost just as much of their strength in the Oblivion crisis. The Thalmor played it very smart and came out on top, but the whole Dominion is still greatly weakened from the episode. Crushing the Blades, who must have got pretty sloppy, was a great coup that positioned them to "win" the Great War, but they can't pull off anything like that again.

[The Jack]

Crushing the blades was extremely lucky. I don't know how they could do that.

With the oblivion gates, well, the empire would lose a lot of men, but it's going to gain a lot of veterans. There is some time between the oblivion crisis and the war.

The only saving grace of the Thalmor are it's insane wizards that can hide the moon and geography; They've got an endless forest with gurilla warfare experts to their north, harsh desert to the east and they're on islands which is not only great for defence but also implies a decent navy. However, the Khajiit are reluctant alies and in older lore all of tamriel is nightmarishly dangerous. The Altmer have enemies in the forms of sea elves and Sload from the south.

The Altmer are a fragile race who reproduce slowly, their superior gear is a bigger boon to their enemies who loot their corpses.

[Aeson]

The Oblivion Crisis was over something like 170 years before the Great War. The Oblivion Crisis may have broken the Empire's strength and sent it into decline, but I'd have to say that with roughly six generations of humans between the end of the Oblivion Crisis and the start of the Great War pinning the Empire's failure on the damage it took during the Oblivion Crisis is pretty iffy. Six generations or so is plenty of time to rebuild, if the Empire had had some decent leadership in the intervening period.

The problem for the human part of the Empire isn't the damage that it took during the Oblivion Crisis; it's the failure of the Empire's leadership in the nearly two centuries afterwards to rebuild and strengthen it.

[Resileaf]

Two centuries? I could have sworn it was a single one...

[Divayth Fyr]

Two centuries? I could have sworn it was a single one...
Nope, Skyrim starts in the year 201 of the Fourth Era, which had started after the Oblivion Crisis ended.

The one confusing thing about Skyrim's timeline is the Great War - kinda feels like it only recently ended, while they wrote it as being finished 25 (20 for Hammerfell) years ago.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Crushing the blades was extremely lucky. I don't know how they could do that.

I can only theorize, but I think part of it is that the Empire actually had both the Blades and the Penitus Oculatus operating at the same time - the Blades have always been sworn to the Dragonborn, where the Penitus Oculatus answered to the Emperor, so there may have been some infighting/distrust between the two. Add to that the Blades' main base isn't exactly secret anymore after the Oblivion Crisis and some idiot (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Oblivion_Crisis) went and published the super-secret identity of the Blades' secret Grandmaster*...nothing crippling on its own maybe, but certainly not helpful when you've got a dangerous enemy gunning for you.

*Yes, that was long before the Great War, but the Thalmor were active back then and could have used it as a point of reference to track down other Blades agents and keep tabs on them. Failing that, it still tells the Thalmor that the Blades do have a leader who is not the Dragonborn/Emperor so they know to look for him or her.

[LibraryOgre]

Also: What are the odds that there were Altmer members of the Blades who might have decided the Thalmor had the right of it? One or two in the right place in the Blades could've destroyed them.

[The Jack]

Bethesda's doesn't know how to set up a story.

Remember, in fallout 4 The institute doesn't already control the boston area, didn't rescue every prime specimen from the vault the PC was in, and hasn't been the salvation of the wasteland.

The most socially adept race in Tamriel can't keep good relations with it's states. Like, unless red mountain and the argonian invasion were also thalmor plots, and those lanky yellow nazis are playing 4d chess, there's no good reason for the empire to be in half the decay it's in.

I don't get why the nords are even bothering with open war.

Kill the yellow elves. Murder-mob them on the streets or something.
Bribe the imperials, who are honestly on your side anyway.
Keep the Bosmer/Khajiit outside of the relevant city areas where Talos worship is. The pretext is thieves.

****, there's like, such good relations with imperials and nords. They're the two closest races in the game. I really don't see why they would ever escalate beyond a phony war, baring lord/lord conflict that happens all the time in high rock without massive issues.

[Keltest]

Bethesda's doesn't know how to set up a story.

Remember, in fallout 4 The institute doesn't already control the boston area, didn't rescue every prime specimen from the vault the PC was in, and hasn't been the salvation of the wasteland.

The most socially adept race in Tamriel can't keep good relations with it's states. Like, unless red mountain and the argonian invasion were also thalmor plots, and those lanky yellow nazis are playing 4d chess, there's no good reason for the empire to be in half the decay it's in.

I don't get why the nords are even bothering with open war.

Kill the yellow elves. Murder-mob them on the streets or something.
Bribe the imperials, who are honestly on your side anyway.
Keep the Bosmer/Khajiit outside of the relevant city areas where Talos worship is. The pretext is thieves.

****, there's like, such good relations with imperials and nords. They're the two closest races in the game. I really don't see why they would ever escalate beyond a phony war, baring lord/lord conflict that happens all the time in high rock without massive issues.
The Thalmor are explicitly inciting anti-imperial sentiment among the Nords. On top of that, Ulfric is an idiot who thinks civil war in a time of crisis is a good idea.

[halfeye]

The Thalmor are explicitly inciting anti-imperial sentiment among the Nords. On top of that, Ulfric is an idiot who thinks civil war in a time of crisis is a good idea.

Yeah, that's all consistent :smalltongue:

Then there are the Falmer and the Forsworn, just in case there weren't enough enemies. Silly is what it really is.

I do like it a lot, but you can't take the politics to be anything other than idiocy.

[Rynjin]

Nope, Skyrim starts in the year 201 of the Fourth Era, which had started after the Oblivion Crisis ended.

The one confusing thing about Skyrim's timeline is the Great War - kinda feels like it only recently ended, while they wrote it as being finished 25 (20 for Hammerfell) years ago.

25 years sounds about right for people to have licked their wounds and had time to chafe and breed resentment under terms of surrender. It's really not that long of a time; long enough for a new generation of young soldiers to be born, but short enough veterans of the last war who are mad as hell and not gonna take it any more can influence them with their own personal biases, with a side of having had 25 years to build a power base and, say, learn how to kill people by yelling at them to make a point in your bid for power.

[Celestia]

****, there's like, such good relations with imperials and nords. They're the two closest races in the game. I really don't see why they would ever escalate beyond a phony war, baring lord/lord conflict that happens all the time in high rock without massive issues.
In a world where every race hates every other race due to centuries of d***ishness on both sides, it was nice to have two races who were genuinely buddies. I didn't like that they ruined that, especially not for a half-assed civil war plotline that is so annoying that most players just ignore it, anyways. I mean, if they were going to burn that bridge, they may as well have put on decent show for it.

[Aeson]

Add to that the Blades' main base isn't exactly secret anymore after the Oblivion Crisis and some idiot (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Oblivion_Crisis) went and published the super-secret identity of the Blades' secret Grandmaster*...nothing crippling on its own maybe, but certainly not helpful when you've got a dangerous enemy gunning for you.
I feel like Cloud Ruler Temple being a major Blades base had to have been an open secret, if it was a secret at all. The fortress is easily visible from Bruma, barring draw-distance issues and inclement weather, and would attract attention since it is visually distinct from typical Cyrodiilic architectural styles, the 'obvious' main road leading out of Bruma's northern gate goes to Cloud Ruler Temple's gate (maybe also to a mountain pass to Skyrim, if the developers had thought to put in roads leading to other provinces even though the game itself is entirely within Cyrodiil, though that might've made players a bit more likely to encounter the game map's boundaries due to the inclination to see where roads go), and the guards on the fortress's walls are wearing the distinctive armor of the Emperor's bodyguards. It also at least has the appearance of being where the Blades who become the Emperor's bodyguards are trained, and since there seem to be no other Blades barracks anywhere in Cyrodiil except possibly in the largely-inaccessible Imperial Palace it would also seem to be where most of the Imperial Bodyguard Blades lived at the time of the Oblivion Crisis.

The disclosure of Jauffre as Grandmaster of the Blades and the resultant implicit revelation of the link between the Blades and the Order of Talos (the order of monks to which Jauffre and Weynon Priory belonged) may still have been a significant revelation after the Oblivion Crisis, but I cannot see how it could have been surprising to any organization with a remotely-competent intelligence service to learn that Cloud Ruler Temple was a major Blades base, at least for the Imperial Bodyguards branch of the organization, unless they simply were not interested in learning such things.

[Keltest]

I feel like Cloud Ruler Temple being a major Blades base had to have been an open secret, if it was a secret at all. The fortress is easily visible from Bruma, barring draw-distance issues and inclement weather, and would attract attention since it is visually distinct from typical Cyrodiilic architectural styles, the 'obvious' main road leading out of Bruma's northern gate goes to Cloud Ruler Temple's gate (maybe also to a mountain pass to Skyrim, if the developers had thought to put in roads leading to other provinces even though the game itself is entirely within Cyrodiil, though that might've made players a bit more likely to encounter the game map's boundaries due to the inclination to see where roads go), and the guards on the fortress's walls are wearing the distinctive armor of the Emperor's bodyguards. It also at least has the appearance of being where the Blades who become the Emperor's bodyguards are trained, and since there seem to be no other Blades barracks anywhere in Cyrodiil except possibly in the largely-inaccessible Imperial Palace it would also seem to be where most of the Imperial Bodyguard Blades lived at the time of the Oblivion Crisis.

The disclosure of Jauffre as Grandmaster of the Blades and the resultant implicit revelation of the link between the Blades and the Order of Talos (the order of monks to which Jauffre and Weynon Priory belonged) may still have been a significant revelation after the Oblivion Crisis, but I cannot see how it could have been surprising to any organization with a remotely-competent intelligence service to learn that Cloud Ruler Temple was a major Blades base, at least for the Imperial Bodyguards branch of the organization, unless they simply were not interested in learning such things.

Indeed. Cloud Ruler Temple seemed to be the HQ of the blades who operated as the Emperor's Elite Guard. Everybody was in uniform there, they all had their unique equipment and they garrisoned and trained instead of spying. Baurus even mentions that he hadn't been back there since he was trained as a Blade, so its purpose cant have been that heavily tied into their espionage role.

Likewise with the Order of Talos, its basically a retirement community. Jauffre excepting, none of its members are on active duty anymore and are unlikely to be particularly involved in the affairs of the Blades proper.

[Resileaf]

I feel like Cloud Ruler Temple being a major Blades base had to have been an open secret, if it was a secret at all. The fortress is easily visible from Bruma, barring draw-distance issues and inclement weather, and would attract attention since it is visually distinct from typical Cyrodiilic architectural styles, the 'obvious' main road leading out of Bruma's northern gate goes to Cloud Ruler Temple's gate (maybe also to a mountain pass to Skyrim, if the developers had thought to put in roads leading to other provinces even though the game itself is entirely within Cyrodiil, though that might've made players a bit more likely to encounter the game map's boundaries due to the inclination to see where roads go), and the guards on the fortress's walls are wearing the distinctive armor of the Emperor's bodyguards. It also at least has the appearance of being where the Blades who become the Emperor's bodyguards are trained, and since there seem to be no other Blades barracks anywhere in Cyrodiil except possibly in the largely-inaccessible Imperial Palace it would also seem to be where most of the Imperial Bodyguard Blades lived at the time of the Oblivion Crisis.

The disclosure of Jauffre as Grandmaster of the Blades and the resultant implicit revelation of the link between the Blades and the Order of Talos (the order of monks to which Jauffre and Weynon Priory belonged) may still have been a significant revelation after the Oblivion Crisis, but I cannot see how it could have been surprising to any organization with a remotely-competent intelligence service to learn that Cloud Ruler Temple was a major Blades base, at least for the Imperial Bodyguards branch of the organization, unless they simply were not interested in learning such things.

It's because there are two different kind of Blades. Those at Cloud Ruler Temple, the bodyguards of the Emperor, are not the spy branch of the organization. They're the visible part of the Blades, those that parade in armor. Contrast Caius Cosades in Morrowind, who acts as a bum in Balmora but is actually the Spymaster of all the Blades in all of Vvanderfell. Nobody knows who that guy is. Those are the Blades the Aldmeri Dominion had to find and hunt down. They're the spies that nobody knows exist.

[Aeson]

It's because there are two different kind of Blades. Those at Cloud Ruler Temple, the bodyguards of the Emperor, are not the spy branch of the organization. They're the visible part of the Blades, those that parade in armor. Contrast Caius Cosades in Morrowind, who acts as a bum in Balmora but is actually the Spymaster of all the Blades in all of Vvanderfell. Nobody knows who that guy is. Those are the Blades the Aldmeri Dominion had to find and hunt down. They're the spies that nobody knows exist.
I understand that. I was responding to Kareeah_Indaga, who suggested that the Oblivion Crisis, or perhaps the publication of the in-game book so titled, resulted in the revelation of a major Blades base. The only major Blades base which I can think of which might possibly have been revealed by the Oblivion Crisis is Cloud Ruler Temple, which I cannot see as having been anything more hidden than an open secret based on how it's portrayed within Oblivion.

[factotum]

The Thalmor are explicitly inciting anti-imperial sentiment among the Nords. On top of that, Ulfric is an idiot who thinks civil war in a time of crisis is a good idea.

Plus he was a Thalmor "asset" for a time, and while that is no longer the case at the time of the Skyrim civil war, his hatred for what the Thalmor did to him may be twisting his logic.

Speaking of the civil war, I wonder what the canonical outcome of that will be in TES 6? It would be somewhat difficult for them to take the "Sod it, we'll have all possible outcomes be true at the same time" option that they did with Daggerfall.

[veti]

On top of that, Ulfric is an idiot who thinks civil war in a time of crisis is a good idea.

Thing is... There's never a good time for that sort of thing. If you wait until the crisis is past, you will wait forever - because there's always another crisis.


Contrast Caius Cosades in Morrowind, who acts as a bum in Balmora but is actually the Spymaster of all the Blades in all of Vvanderfell. Nobody knows who that guy is.

Until he blabs not only his own identity, but also that of every other agent in Vvardenfell - with addresses - to some random convict who just dropped in off the street... And even before then, it seems at least some soldiers knew who he was.

If that's an example of Blades security practice, I'm not at all surprised the Thalmor could wipe them out. All it would take would be a little bit of organisation.

[Arutema]

Speaking of the civil war, I wonder what the canonical outcome of that will be in TES 6? It would be somewhat difficult for them to take the "Sod it, we'll have all possible outcomes be true at the same time" option that they did with Daggerfall.

I kind of suspect TES VI will be set in another province in the same year as Skyrim so as not to have to settle it.

[Aeson]

Until he blabs not only his own identity, but also that of every other agent in Vvardenfell - with addresses - to some random convict who just dropped in off the street...
I wouldn't quite call the player character of Morrowind "some random convict" - you do at least come with a package ordering Caius to bring you into his organization. Still doesn't justify him just handing over the names and addresses of all his agents almost as soon as you come in the door, though he at least doesn't immediately tell you about his local contacts. Even had he been led to believe that you were to be groomed as his replacement as local spymaster - which, as far as I know, he wasn't, since there's nothing of that nature in the package you give to him - telling you the names and addresses of his agents more or less as soon as you walk in the door seems more than a little iffy from an operational security standpoint.

[The Jack]

The Thalmor are explicitly inciting anti-imperial sentiment among the Nords. On top of that, Ulfric is an idiot who thinks civil war in a time of crisis is a good idea.

Anti imperial sentiment exists primarily because of the imperials surrendering to the elves. I get that populism is a hell of a drug, and that Nords are notoriously thick, but it shouldn't work half as well.

[Keltest]

Anti imperial sentiment exists primarily because of the imperials surrendering to the elves. I get that populism is a hell of a drug, and that Nords are notoriously thick, but it shouldn't work half as well.

Most of the Nords recognize that they were getting their butts kicked, and that the truce was better for the Empire than the elves in the long run. What theyre trying to do is take the actions of the Thalmor, like murdering Talos worshipers in their homes, and pinning it on the Imperials. "see what theyre letting our enemies do!?" type stuff. Im sure that the actual, literal murders and hit squads the Thalmor send out are dubiously supported by the concordant, at best, and if the Empire actually had solid proof it was going on then the Thalmor would be out of Skyrim in a heartbeat. Except that Ulfric had to go and declare war, which made it significantly harder for the Empire to find proof that the Thalmor were assassins, not diplomats, because now they can hide behind the idea of fighting the Stormcloaks.

[Resileaf]

Most of the Nords recognize that they were getting their butts kicked, and that the truce was better for the Empire than the elves in the long run. What theyre trying to do is take the actions of the Thalmor, like murdering Talos worshipers in their homes, and pinning it on the Imperials. "see what theyre letting our enemies do!?" type stuff. Im sure that the actual, literal murders and hit squads the Thalmor send out are dubiously supported by the concordant, at best, and if the Empire actually had solid proof it was going on then the Thalmor would be out of Skyrim in a heartbeat. Except that Ulfric had to go and declare war, which made it significantly harder for the Empire to find proof that the Thalmor were assassins, not diplomats, because now they can hide behind the idea of fighting the Stormcloaks.

Game universe politics are, as real life politics, complicated.

[Caelestion]

And because it's done by Bethesda, it's half-arsed at best.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Like, unless red mountain and the argonian invasion were also thalmor plots, and those lanky yellow nazis are playing 4d chess, there's no good reason for the empire to be in half the decay it's in.

At least one person (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rising_Threat) thought that's exactly what they've been doing.



I do like it a lot, but you can't take the politics to be anything other than idiocy.

Isn't that typical of politics in general though?



Until he blabs not only his own identity, but also that of every other agent in Vvardenfell - with addresses - to some random convict who just dropped in off the street... And even before then, it seems at least some soldiers knew who he was.


"Some random convict the Emperor knows is heavily tied into a prophecy to stop a great evil" != "some random convict period". And wasn't the package you give him at the game start specific instructions to tell you some of these things? (Serious question, it's been a while since I played.) It's not like he did it on a whim.

[Aeson]

And wasn't the package you give him at the game start specific instructions to tell you some of these things? (Serious question, it's been a while since I played.) It's not like he did it on a whim.
Decoded package, main part (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Decoded_package). Decoded package, attachment (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Package_for_Caius_Cosades/Decoded). Caius was ordered to induct you into the Blades and use you to investigate and fulfill the conditions of the Nerevarine Prophecies. Caius was also informed that you had been released from prison at the Emperor's whim for this purpose, and that you were of no particular distinction or importance otherwise. The package contained no particular instructions for how he was to involve you in his organization, so informing you of the names and addressses of his agents is entirely on Caius.

[Keltest]

Decoded package, main part (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Decoded_package). Decoded package, attachment (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Package_for_Caius_Cosades/Decoded). Caius was ordered to induct you into the Blades and use you to investigate and fulfill the conditions of the Nerevarine Prophecies. Caius was also informed that you had been released from prison at the Emperor's whim for this purpose, and that you were of no particular distinction or importance otherwise. The package contained no particular instructions for how he was to involve you in his organization, so informing you of the names and addressses of his agents is entirely on Caius.

In his defense, they aren't just random agents, theyre specifically called out as trainers, and he wants you to go to them and learn various useful skills. Its not just an arbitrary thing, he does it specifically to help you survive and maintain your cover as an adventurer.

[Resileaf]

In his defense, they aren't just random agents, theyre specifically called out as trainers, and he wants you to go to them and learn various useful skills. Its not just an arbitrary thing, he does it specifically to help you survive and maintain your cover as an adventurer.

Yeah, it's basically "The Emperor wants you to survive and I'm not the only person who can teach you the skills you'll need to succeed in your investigation. These guys are also my agents and will tell you stuff I can't myself."
For him, it's a way to help you accomplish your mission. Maybe he'd have been more careful if there was the Thalmor threat, but as it was, the Blades weren't exactly threatened.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Decoded package, main part (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Decoded_package). Decoded package, attachment (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Package_for_Caius_Cosades/Decoded). Caius was ordered to induct you into the Blades and use you to investigate and fulfill the conditions of the Nerevarine Prophecies. Caius was also informed that you had been released from prison at the Emperor's whim for this purpose, and that you were of no particular distinction or importance otherwise. The package contained no particular instructions for how he was to involve you in his organization, so informing you of the names and addressses of his agents is entirely on Caius.

Thank you. :smallsmile: Though I think we're going to have to disagree, because I still feel saying someone is of no particular importance if you ignore the most important thing about them is somewhat contradictory.

[The Jack]

At least one person (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rising_Threat) thought that's exactly what they've been doing.


A nice read.

Every thalmor agent I've met had the charisma of a prolapse. They couldn't convince me the sky blue. Maybe it's just bethesda vision, maybe Mercer Frey was a masterful con to anyone but the very-special-dragonborn (not that Karliah even approached reasonably trustworthy ). The Thalmor are insufferable ****s even if, for any reason, you're playing an altmer. Hell, by altmer standards they're awful. Maybe it's skyrim's style that liars and bad people are exceptionally obvious to the player (except, of course, those few examples where good characters seem like bad characters), but the laws of chim say that, to everyone else, Thalmor agents have double digits of personality.

Hey, Dunmer are supposed to be worse socially than Altmer, Altmer are supposed to be socially average, but stats and the way they're represented in the games are very different. I have a hard time accepting 'thalmor master plan' or anything approaching such.

Did the Thalmor even exist pre-skyrim?

[Keltest]

A nice read.

Every thalmor agent I've met had the charisma of a prolapse. They couldn't convince me the sky blue. Maybe it's just bethesda vision, maybe Mercer Frey was a masterful con to anyone but the very-special-dragonborn (not that Karliah even approached reasonably trustworthy ). The Thalmor are insufferable ****s even if, for any reason, you're playing an altmer. Hell, by altmer standards they're awful. Maybe it's skyrim's style that liars and bad people are exceptionally obvious to the player (except, of course, those few examples where good characters seem like bad characters), but the laws of chim say that, to everyone else, Thalmor agents have double digits of personality.

Hey, Dunmer are supposed to be worse socially than Altmer, Altmer are supposed to be socially average, but stats and the way they're represented in the games are very different. I have a hard time accepting 'thalmor master plan' or anything approaching such.

Did the Thalmor even exist pre-skyrim?

In a loose sense, there were stirrings of anti-imperial sentiment from the altmer as far back as Oblivion. I doubt they planned for the Thalmor to happen when they wrote that rumor.

Having said that, the only actual Thalmor diplomat in Skyrim is Elenwen, who seems to recognize that she's there as a lawyer rather than a peacemaker. The rest are justiciars, ie soldiers and agents, and therefore don't have to hide their contempt, and indeed want to actively discourage people from interacting with them.

[Resileaf]

A nice read.

Every thalmor agent I've met had the charisma of a prolapse. They couldn't convince me the sky blue. Maybe it's just bethesda vision, maybe Mercer Frey was a masterful con to anyone but the very-special-dragonborn (not that Karliah even approached reasonably trustworthy ). The Thalmor are insufferable ****s even if, for any reason, you're playing an altmer. Hell, by altmer standards they're awful. Maybe it's skyrim's style that liars and bad people are exceptionally obvious to the player (except, of course, those few examples where good characters seem like bad characters), but the laws of chim say that, to everyone else, Thalmor agents have double digits of personality.

Hey, Dunmer are supposed to be worse socially than Altmer, Altmer are supposed to be socially average, but stats and the way they're represented in the games are very different. I have a hard time accepting 'thalmor master plan' or anything approaching such.

Did the Thalmor even exist pre-skyrim?

The Skyrim Thalmor agents don't need to be charismatic or charming. Hell, it's to their advantage to have the locals hate them, because then the Nords can say "Look at how dickish the Thalmor are, and the Empire are just accepting them", causing yet more unrest.


In a loose sense, there were stirrings of anti-imperial sentiment from the altmer as far back as Oblivion. I doubt they planned for the Thalmor to happen when they wrote that rumor.


There was a quest that might today be considered something of foreshadowing of Thalmor sentiment. There is an altmer nobleman in the Imperial city who hires you to gather several ayleid relics for him, and his questline ends with him trying to claim an ancient ayleid crown that will give him ultimate power. I believe that he states when he claims the crown that as an elf, he's reclaiming the natural superiority that his species should have (Or something like that, I don't fully remember because it's been a while).

[DomaDoma]

The greatest advantage the Thalmor had was gained by the assassination of Ocato in FY 10. It left a power vacuum that caused a seven-year all-out calling-all-pretenders brawl for the succession, during which time they took complete control of Summerset (I imagine separatism would be an easy sell at that juncture), and after which the eventual winners, the Medes, were left scrambling to reclaim the former Imperial holdings piece by piddling piece - keeping in mind that they'd lost Morrowind and Black Marsh before the War of SEAN BEAN MUST BE STOPPED even began, and that wasn't quick enough to keep from losing Vvardenfell and Elsweyr. Lathenil of Sunhold (who probably died before the Void Nights, but still) implies that garden-variety political willful blindness, magnified no doubt by the short-human-lifespan issue, also plays a large role in the Empire's weakened state.

As to how they managed to kill just about every Blades agent in Tamriel, and categorically every single one in their territory? I have to think they somehow got hold of the highest-level personnel files. That is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Aeson]

There was a quest that might today be considered something of foreshadowing of Thalmor sentiment. There is an altmer nobleman in the Imperial city who hires you to gather several ayleid relics for him, and his questline ends with him trying to claim an ancient ayleid crown that will give him ultimate power. I believe that he states when he claims the crown that as an elf, he's reclaiming the natural superiority that his species should have (Or something like that, I don't fully remember because it's been a while).
This guy (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umbacano), specifically.

I don't think I'd consider him "foreshadowing of Thalmor sentiment," however; "elves are better" and more specifically "my type of elf is better" was a pretty common attitude for elves in Morrowind, just going by how the Dunmer and Altmer describe their races, and Umbacano also looks back to the "glory days" of the "wrong" elven civilization - the Ayleid civilization, which lasted from, roughly, the Middle Merethic Era to the Early First Era, rather than the older Aldmer/Altmer civilization of the Summerset Isles and, presumably, Aldmeris and the more mythical Dawn Era stuff to which the Thalmor notionally seek to return. Essentially, Umbacano wants the restoration of the Roman Empire, or perhaps Classical Period Greece; the Thalmor (notionally) want a return to the mythical Greek Golden Age, when gods lived and walked among men, abundance and ease blessed the land, and strife was as yet unknown.

[factotum]

As to how they managed to kill just about every Blades agent in Tamriel, and categorically every single one in their territory? I have to think they somehow got hold of the highest-level personnel files. That is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Didn't Cloud Ruler Temple get sacked during the Great War? They might have got the information about the location of Blades agents from there.

[Aeson]

Didn't Cloud Ruler Temple get sacked during the Great War? They might have got the information about the location of Blades agents from there.
Maybe, but the killing of all of the Blades agents in Summerset and Valenwood apparently happened prior to the delivery of the ultimatum which opened the Great War since their heads were sent along with the ultimatum as a "gift" for the Emperor Titus Mede II, at least according to The Great War (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War).

Additionally, the Thalmor dossier on Esbern (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Esbern) states that the archives of Cloud Ruler Temple had been largely destroyed in the siege of the fortress, and in the same document there is a suggestion that documents relating to dragon-lore may have been removed from the Cloud Ruler Temple archives prior to the Thalmor's attack, indicating that the Thalmor attack on Cloud Ruler Temple may have been foreseen by the Blades. Personnel records being rather important documents, I would think that destruction or removal of such would have been a high priority, especially once it became apparent that the fortress would fall. Recovering mostly-complete personnel records from the ruins of the archives after seizing Cloud Ruler Temple, while not completely implausible, strikes me as somewhat unlikely, and if the destruction of the archives was deliberate and thorough, well, there's not much that can be recovered from the ashes of properly-incinerated papers unless there's some magic in Tamriel for it which the player-character has never seen in any of the games (not, mind you, that a "restore document" spell would be of any great value to the player-character in any of the games outside one or two specific quests).

[factotum]

Maybe, but the killing of all of the Blades agents in Summerset and Valenwood apparently happened prior to the delivery of the ultimatum which opened the Great War since their heads were sent along with the ultimatum as a "gift" for the Emperor Titus Mede II, at least according to The Great War (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War).

Hmmm, 'tis definitely a puzzle, then! Is this one of those situations where we've put more thought into it than Bethesda ever did, though? :smallwink:

[Rynjin]

Playing with Enai Siaion's new mod (Wintersun, the religion mod) and it's really fun. Well, technically I've been playing with it for a while (it was in beta for a bit), but now I'm diving further into it with a wholesale Cleric character. Theldrick: devotee of Arkay, slayer of undead and cleanser of ancient temples.

Have a fun character arc planned out where I'll get mixed up with Meridia, and get corrupted into worshiping Daedra (mostly so I can try out a bunch of different deities with a coherent reason), but for now he's a good guy who kills undead and doesn't afraid of anything. Started in Folgunthur at level 2 and cleared it out; now I'm level 11 (not as lengthy or harrowing as it sounds; I popped on a x5 leveling multiplier, but still two very tough fights in there). Should be fun to figure out where I go from here.

[Aeson]

Hmmm, 'tis definitely a puzzle, then!
Britain pulled off a counterintelligence coup at the start of the Second World War, arresting virtually all of the German agents in the country, and they did so primarily through good detective work performed over the preceding decade or so. Germany, too, had some reasonably significant counterintelligence and counterinsurgency successes in the Second World War, crippling or destroying entire resistance networks. It is not at all unbelievable that the Thalmor might have had similar successes, especially if the Vvardenfell network run by Caius Cosades is a typical example of Blades network organization.


Is this one of those situations where we've put more thought into it than Bethesda ever did, though?
Probably.


In his defense, they aren't just random agents, theyre specifically called out as trainers, and he wants you to go to them and learn various useful skills. Its not just an arbitrary thing, he does it specifically to help you survive and maintain your cover as an adventurer.
I would argue that that makes things even worse; if these six agents provide training services to the entire network, as is suggested within the game, then it isn't that unlikely that they know - and are known by - a significant portion of the network. That makes them a serious vulnerability for the Vvardenfell Blades network; pick up a bottom-rung agent like the Nerevarine notionally is at the start of Morrowind's main quest and six or seven people who each know most of the other members of the network are already compromised. Pick up and break just one of them and a competent counterintelligence service could probably roll up Caius Cosades' entire organization inside a month.

For security's sake, an intelligence network's agents should know as little about one another as possible and as few other agents as is feasible or the capture of even a bottom-rung member of the network can seriously compromise the entire thing and everyone in it. The more of the network any individual member knows, the faster things go south for the entire network when somebody gets caught. If I get picked up by counterintelligence but can only compromise one other member of the network, only that one other person is directly compromised by my capture and counterintelligence will have a relatively difficult time unraveling the network with only one point of attack. If I get picked up by counterintelligence and can compromise ten other members of the network, counterintelligence is going to have a much, much easier time unraveling the network, not only because I know and can therefore compromise more of the network but also because it's a lot more likely that they'll be able to pick up at least one of the ten people my capture compromised than they are to capture at least one person compromised by me when I only know one other member of the network. Moreover, even if all the people who my capture compromised avoid capture themselves, it is likely that they will at least temporarily need to go relatively inactive to avoid capture, causing some disruption to the network, and the more people who can be compromised by my capture, the greater that disruption can be.

[Spore]

Have a fun character arc planned out where I'll get mixed up with Meridia, and get corrupted into worshiping Daedra (mostly so I can try out a bunch of different deities with a coherent reason)

Roleplaying a paladin in Skyrim is almost impossible. At least Oblivion had the Knights of the Nine mini expansion. I understand that temptation - by daedra - prey in every corner and how refusing the Dark Brotherhood is an incredibly strong character point.

But if you are done serving the Dawnguard, you can't even properly get into the Companion quest because you have to become a vampire. Basically a worshipper of the divines is really shift out of luck when it comes to morally upstanding questlines. Other than being dragonborn, thane of every hold and destroying the vampire plague, and then continuing being the dragonborn, there is not much to do. I mean, yeah civil war, but even that is morally ambiguous as it is a matter of opinion.

The thieves' guild are secret Daedra worshippers. The companions have a rogue organization worshipping Hircine (if not by name, in faith). Ironically enough the daedra summoners at the college of Winterhold have a capable storyline for any paladin, even if he just stumbles into their building asking for a bit of restoration magic.

So a question to you, Rynjin, and to the others. What do you let a proud Good character do in quests? Which mods do you use that ADD Good decisions (philosophically Good as in the D&D sense, not necessarily good as in quality or even morally)? Because honestly, every other character would have just killed Serana on the spot as she holds an Elder Scroll and is an ancient vampire that cannot be unleashed onto the world.

[DomaDoma]

Going back to the Legion (New Vegas), their political role is quite different from that of the Thalmor. Their gameplay role, however, is just the same: tick off the people who seriously deserve it, and suddenly you're getting attacked by column-shaped four-man squadrons of assassins.

(For what it's worth, ED-E, added to Boone, was what made the battle winnable and got me as far as Freeside intact.)


in the same document there is a suggestion that documents relating to dragon-lore may have been removed from the Cloud Ruler Temple archives prior to the Thalmor's attack, indicating that the Thalmor attack on Cloud Ruler Temple may have been foreseen by the Blades. Personnel records being rather important documents, I would think that destruction or removal of such would have been a high priority, especially once it became apparent that the fortress would fall.

This is straight headcanon territory, but I believe that the documents were removed well before that. The prophecy clearly outlines a "last Dragonborn." Which makes it safe to assume that, in the Stormcrown Interregnum, there totally was an actual Dragonborn involved. Titus I was not that, yet the worst the Blades get from the Mede victory is a less official role in government. So, what if the actual Dragonborn is essential to the prophecy, but totally unsuited for rulership? The history of monarchy offers plenty of reasons for that, but one thing that would certainly do the job is being born and raised in the Sanguine cult. (And why can your Dragonborn be of any race? Because your ancestor threw some wild magic-slinging parties, that's why.)

[Caelestion]

How had the Empire lost Morrowind and Black Marsh even before the Oblivion Crisis?

[The Jack]

I just dint see why the nords dont organize thalmor murder squads. Ignore the imperials, kill the small groups of thalmor.

If the thu'um was half as impressive as it was in the lore, they wouldnt be able ti base anything in skyrim.

Altmer are especially vulnerable to maguc and elements, so they must be awfully poor at magical ambushes.

Nords are subhumanly stupid and uncharismatuc. I guess they dont have the brains for this kinda thing.

[Keltest]

I just dint see why the nords dont organize thalmor murder squads. Ignore the imperials, kill the small groups of thalmor.

If the thu'um was half as impressive as it was in the lore, they wouldnt be able ti base anything in skyrim.

Altmer are especially vulnerable to maguc and elements, so they must be awfully poor at magical ambushes.

Nords are subhumanly stupid and uncharismatuc. I guess they dont have the brains for this kinda thing.

What would that solve? With a couple of exceptions, there aren't any Thalmor officially stationed in Stormcloak territory, and indeed if they take over a hold any Thalmor NPCs go away. So they kill a dozen elves and then... what?

[The Jack]

I dunno. Killing your enemies is generally a good way to settle disputes. Well directed Violence solves problems.

[Keltest]

I dunno. Killing your enemies is generally a good way to settle disputes. Well directed Violence solves problems.

Gosh, just kill the Thalmor! Why didn't they think of that!

Oh wait, they tried. Their armies ground each other to a bloody pulp in Cyrodiil. Hence the White Gold Concordant, heance the civil war.

[The Jack]

Guerilla warfare. Huge difference.

[Resileaf]

What do you think is the civil war if not just that? Plus there are random events of Stormcloak and Thalmor conflicts on the road you can chance upon.

[mythmonster2]

I've got to say, despite Bethesda's infamous writing, they did make a pretty good conflict if it's still causing debate over 7 years after the game came out.

[Resileaf]

Bethesda may not be great at doing writing for a single game (at least after Morrowind), but their lore is fairly compelling and interesting. Skyrim's writing as a whole may not be the best, but the events surrounding it are very interesting. The Thalmor rising is not something you live, it's something you learn, and there is just enough information to guess at what their real motives are without it being confirmed.

[LibraryOgre]

Maybe, but the killing of all of the Blades agents in Summerset and Valenwood apparently happened prior to the delivery of the ultimatum which opened the Great War since their heads were sent along with the ultimatum as a "gift" for the Emperor Titus Mede II, at least according to The Great War (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War).



Hmmm, 'tis definitely a puzzle, then! Is this one of those situations where we've put more thought into it than Bethesda ever did, though? :smallwink:

Again, why couldn't you have a Blades member, or even several, who turned? Get 4 or 5 Altmer in the Blades who, after the Oblivion Crisis, decided that their oaths to the Dragonborn didn't mean anything with no living Dragonborn, and they may be willing to finger all the Blades agents they know. In Summerset, some of your Blades agents will be Altmer, and they may be long-standing agents with a lot of contacts, and you might be able to cripple them in one fell swoop.

By the time they turn to Valenwood and Elswyr, the Blades might have celled up a bit, and been harder to root out, but controlling Summerset would give them a solid base to work from.

[Resileaf]

Again, why couldn't you have a Blades member, or even several, who turned? Get 4 or 5 Altmer in the Blades who, after the Oblivion Crisis, decided that their oaths to the Dragonborn didn't mean anything with no living Dragonborn, and they may be willing to finger all the Blades agents they know. In Summerset, some of your Blades agents will be Altmer, and they may be long-standing agents with a lot of contacts, and you might be able to cripple them in one fell swoop.

By the time they turn to Valenwood and Elswyr, the Blades might have celled up a bit, and been harder to root out, but controlling Summerset would give them a solid base to work from.

I would say though that since it's specified that the heads of every single Blade in Summerset was sent to the Imperial City... It pretty much means that if there were traitors who pointed fingers at other agents, they were rewarded as traitors deserve (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RewardedAsATraitorDeserves).

[factotum]

How had the Empire lost Morrowind and Black Marsh even before the Oblivion Crisis?

It hadn't--Morrowind broke away after the eruption of Red Mountain and the following Argonian invasion in 4E 6, and the Argonians left immediately following the Oblivion Crisis. Maybe he meant to say even before the Great War?

[The Jack]

I've got to say, despite Bethesda's infamous writing, they did make a pretty good conflict if it's still causing debate over 7 years after the game came out.

Bethesda make me mad mostly because they waste so much potential. It's like they got the worlds greatest theme park with the best attractions but the eletricity bill hasnt been paid and the staff are all openly hostile towards the customers. It's like they've got a wealth of fantastic stories to work from but they end up making Snyder's superman trilogy...

I think I'm a fan of TES more because of what they could be, rather than what they are.


Bethesda may not be great at doing writing for a single game (at least after Morrowind), but their lore is fairly compelling and interesting. Skyrim's writing as a whole may not be the best, but the events surrounding it are very interesting. The Thalmor rising is not something you live, it's something you learn, and there is just enough information to guess at what their real motives are without it being confirmed.

morrowind had plenty of bad writing in it. Just ask someone about their profession.

Modern Bethesda dont utilise their lore. look at skyrim: Not a single sky whale in sight. Read Immortal blood and compare the volkihar there to the cookie cutter vampires of dawnguard. Look at skyrim's dwemer architecture and compare to all known descriptions.

Damn it they had the whole falmer race degenerate into blind goblins so that they could feel more clever about using goblins. (And when they do give us 'proper' falmer, we get the last albino altmer instead...)

[Keltest]

I would say though that since it's specified that the heads of every single Blade in Summerset was sent to the Imperial City... It pretty much means that if there were traitors who pointed fingers at other agents, they were rewarded as traitors deserve (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RewardedAsATraitorDeserves).

I would also add that theres no indication that the blades of one province know much about the activities of members from any other province. Heck, Caius actually went back to Cyrodiil during the events of Morrowind, and he doesn't get so much as a name drop that im aware of in Oblivion. However they did it, it probably wasn't through direct treachery.

[Resileaf]

I would also add that theres no indication that the blades of one province know much about the activities of members from any other province. Heck, Caius actually went back to Cyrodiil during the events of Morrowind, and he doesn't get so much as a name drop that im aware of in Oblivion. However they did it, it probably wasn't through direct treachery.

Caius did get a short story from one of the Elder Scrolls writers in the aftermath of the Oblivion crisis. I don't know if you've seen it.

[The_Jackal]

Every thalmor agent I've met had the charisma of a prolapse.

Thank you, this made me laugh out loud.


They couldn't convince me the sky blue. Maybe it's just bethesda vision, maybe Mercer Frey was a masterful con to anyone but the very-special-dragonborn (not that Karliah even approached reasonably trustworthy ). The Thalmor are insufferable ****s even if, for any reason, you're playing an altmer. Hell, by altmer standards they're awful. Maybe it's skyrim's style that liars and bad people are exceptionally obvious to the player (except, of course, those few examples where good characters seem like bad characters), but the laws of chim say that, to everyone else, Thalmor agents have double digits of personality.

Hey, Dunmer are supposed to be worse socially than Altmer, Altmer are supposed to be socially average, but stats and the way they're represented in the games are very different. I have a hard time accepting 'thalmor master plan' or anything approaching such.

Yeah, the Bethsoft writers definitely play the 'arrogant elf' role way past the point of subtlety, but I think that's mostly due to bad writing and low confidence in the innate intellect of their audience. But also, let's not pretend that cartoonishly unlikable foils aren't a common trope in TV and films. It's the common scenery-chewing (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChewingTheScenery) villain who makes the really good (https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Charles_Dance) villains stand out.


Did the Thalmor even exist pre-skyrim?

No, the Thalmor are a reaction to the events of Oblivion. While their beliefs regarding the inferiority of non-elves may have been common in Aldmeri culture, it was the Oblivion crisis which impelled those beliefs into a political movement which seized power and drove them into war with the Empire.

[Rynjin]

Roleplaying a paladin in Skyrim is almost impossible. At least Oblivion had the Knights of the Nine mini expansion. I understand that temptation - by daedra - prey in every corner and how refusing the Dark Brotherhood is an incredibly strong character point. But if you are done serving the Dawnguard, you can't even properly get into the Companion quest because you have to become a vampire.

It's difficult, but I've done it before. The playstyle with Ordinator is pretty fun too. Also, point of order, you don't have to be a vampire to do Dawnguard. It tries to shove the option onto you multiple times, but you can refuse; it just makes the Soul Cairn a bigger PITA. Plus you can cure it in Morthal.


Basically a worshipper of the divines is really shift out of luck when it comes to morally upstanding questlines. Other than being dragonborn, thane of every hold and destroying the vampire plague, and then continuing being the dragonborn, there is not much to do. I mean, yeah civil war, but even that is morally ambiguous as it is a matter of opinion.

Besides wandering around and just killing stuff, I download a lot of quest mods. Stuff like Forgotten City and things like that. Gives me a bit more mileage. Plus I think SOME of the Daedric quests are fine for a Good character. Meridia's and Azura's spring to mind. Maybe CLavicus Vile, I do 't remember him asking you to do anything bad. And Sanguine's is all right.




So a question to you, Rynjin, and to the others. What do you let a proud Good character do in quests? Which mods do you use that ADD Good decisions (philosophically Good as in the D&D sense, not necessarily good as in quality or even morally)? Because honestly, every other character would have just killed Serana on the spot as she holds an Elder Scroll and is an ancient vampire that cannot be unleashed onto the world.

Eh, I don't think so. Plus I like the head canon that Serana mind tricks you when you first meet. Your character sounds so...dazed and bland, and refuses to press when she doesn't answer important questions. And after that, she proves to be a valuable asset.

I'm not at my gaming PC at the moment, but there are some good mods out there for good guys, even if they are just quests that don't REQUIRE you to do evil stuff.

[Aeson]

Re: loss of Morrowind, my impression is that Bethesda's intent isn't so much that Morrowind had broken away from the Empire as that Morrowind remained sufficiently damaged by the fall of Baar Dao and the resultant eruption of Red Mountain in 4E 5 and the following Argonian invasion as to not be a particularly significant factor in the Great War - The Great War (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War), for example, implies that Morrowind is still part of the empire, at least as of the start of the Great War in 4E 171.

Re: Thalmor, it's claimed in The Great War that the current Thalmor organization existed as a political movement prior to the Oblivion Crisis. While no direct mention of Skyrim's Thalmor is, to my knowledge, made in Oblivion, there is an NPC conversation (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Radiant_Conversations) which you can overhear indicating that "syndicates of wizards have led a boycott of Imperial goods in the lands of the Altmer," which might perhaps be considered an indirect reference to the Thalmor, or at least a proto-Thalmor movement or organization, though my feeling is that, at least when Oblivion was made, it was simply meant to be just one more indication of the Empire's instability towards the end of the Third Era. The First and Third Editions of the Pocket Guide to the Empire also contain references to the Thalmor, but not the organization of that name seen in Skyrim - rather, the Thalmor referenced here are a governing body of the Second Aldmeri Dominion, and are presumably the organization for which the Skyrim Thalmor are named, presumably to imply a connection between the modern Thalmor and the "good old days" of the Second Aldmeri Dominion. Of course, given the long lives of Tamriel's elves, it's at least somewhat plausible that elves of the Second Aldmeri Dominion's Thalmor became affiliated with or founded the 'modern' Thalmor, if going by Morrowind's implied elven lifespans rather than the shorter elven lifespans suggested in the later games; the Second Aldmeri Dominion fell in 2E 896, the last year of the Second Era, and the Third Era only lasted about 433 years.

[Resileaf]

I had assumed that Morrowind was still part of the Empire. Just... Three quarters of the province no longer existed when Vvanderfell was destroyed, so what contribution it could have made to the Great War would have been minimal already, but then the Argonians invaded, making things even worse. Morrowind is part of the Empire by name only because it is almost not a state anymore after the devastation it suffered.

[The Jack]

It's difficult, but I've done it before. The playstyle with Ordinator is pretty fun too. Also, point of order, you don't have to be a vampire to do Dawnguard. It tries to shove the option onto you multiple times, but you can refuse; it just makes the Soul Cairn a bigger PITA. Plus you can cure it in Morthal.



Besides wandering around and just killing stuff, I download a lot of quest mods. Stuff like Forgotten City and things like that. Gives me a bit more mileage. Plus I think SOME of the Daedric quests are fine for a Good character. Meridia's and Azura's spring to mind. Maybe CLavicus Vile, I do 't remember him asking you to do anything bad. And Sanguine's is all right.



Eh, I don't think so. Plus I like the head canon that Serana mind tricks you when you first meet. Your character sounds so...dazed and bland, and refuses to press when she doesn't answer important questions. And after that, she proves to be a valuable asset.

I'm not at my gaming PC at the moment, but there are some good mods out there for good guys, even if they are just quests that don't REQUIRE you to do evil stuff.

Mind tricks are the only way to justify some of it, but they don't justify a lot of it. Remember, a lot of that story is -let's go get the stuff my dad needs so he can't get them, even if he would have never gotten that stuff on his own, and we could've just tried to kill him from the begining.- The Dawnguard storyline might as well be about keeping your penis safe by hiding it in a meatgrinder but not turning the handle. You literally cause the problems your trying to deal with.

Also, the last falmer... oh how it makes me mad at what a cop out they did.
There's so much potential for the falmer and they raped that potential in the space of one game and an expansion pack. Dawnguard gives us a nice new area and some cool new weapons and armour, but it's so very terrible for lore.




other topic.
I think TES does itself a favour by keeping away from 'paladins'
There's no arcane/divine divide in TES.
I can see reason for the playstyle; Restoration was great for melee fighters when it could fortify, and I understand some aedra/daedra and various orders hate the undead and specialise in their eradication, but I don't think there's stuff there for a DnD style Paladin, and I think that's a good thing. Vigilants of stendar are cool, but they're not channeling divinity or acting for justness and goodness.

It's another reason why I don't like the Dawnguard DLC. The addition of crossbows and the new weapon enchantments are painfully adhering to vampire hunter tropes, they're not there to be their own thing.

[Aeson]

other topic.
I think TES does itself a favour by keeping away from 'paladins'
There's no arcane/divine divide in TES.
I can see reason for the playstyle; Restoration was great for melee fighters when it could fortify, and I understand some aedra/daedra and various orders hate the undead and specialise in their eradication, but I don't think there's stuff there for a DnD style Paladin, and I think that's a good thing. Vigilants of stendar are cool, but they're not channeling divinity or acting for justness and goodness.
The standard 'Crusader' and 'Knight' classes of Morrowind and Oblivion seem to me as though they fill pretty much the same niche as a D&D Paladin. Not exactly, of course, but the Knight has a lot of the same "heavily-armored warrior with a dash of magic who abides by a code of behavior" and the Crusader has a lot of the same "heavily-armored holy warrior with a dash of magic who seeks out and destroys/opposes evil" that D&D's Paladins have, when you consider the class skills and description. Going by the class descriptions, Crusader's probably a better fit for the less restrictive paladin class of more recent D&D while knight's probably a better fit for the more restrictive paladin class of older D&D.

Any heavily armored warrior with spellcasting powers and a good cause may call himself a Crusader. Crusaders do well by doing good. They hunt monsters and villains, making themselves rich by plunder as they rid the world of evil.

Of noble birth, or distinguished in battle or tourney, knights are civilized warriors, schooled in letters and courtesy, governed by the codes of chivalry. In addition to the arts of war, knights study the lore of healing and enchantment.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

No, the Thalmor are a reaction to the events of Oblivion. While their beliefs regarding the inferiority of non-elves may have been common in Aldmeri culture, it was the Oblivion crisis which impelled those beliefs into a political movement which seized power and drove them into war with the Empire.

Depends on what you mean. There was a faction within the Aldmeri Dominion that went by 'Thalmor' as far back as the Second Era and the First Aldmeri Dominion in ESO. They got powerful after the Oblivion Crisis, and somewhere between Ayrenn and now they went from unlikeable-but-legitimate to want-to-destroy-the-world crazy evil.


Re: loss of Morrowind, my impression is that Bethesda's intent isn't so much that Morrowind had broken away from the Empire as that Morrowind remained sufficiently damaged by the fall of Baar Dao and the resultant eruption of Red Mountain in 4E 5 and the following Argonian invasion as to not be a particularly significant factor in the Great War - The Great War (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War), for example, implies that Morrowind is still part of the empire, at least as of the start of the Great War in 4E 171.

IIRC the Keyes books had a casual mention that Morrowind had in fact left the Empire - but as that's the only place I recall reading it I doubt it lasted a significant amount of time. They really weren't in good shape to go solo.

[The Jack]

The standard 'Crusader' and 'Knight' classes of Morrowind and Oblivion seem to me as though they fill pretty much the same niche as a D&D Paladin. Not exactly, of course, but the Knight has a lot of the same "heavily-armored warrior with a dash of magic who abides by a code of behavior" and the Crusader has a lot of the same "heavily-armored holy warrior with a dash of magic who seeks out and destroys/opposes evil" that D&D's Paladins have, when you consider the class skills and description. Going by the class descriptions, Crusader's probably a better fit for the less restrictive paladin class of more recent D&D while knight's probably a better fit for the more restrictive paladin class of older D&D.

Eh.... this goes well with my 'class descriptions are the worst' complaint about morrowind. Someone splurged over their keyboard because they could write that thing that was cool in that DnD game they played a while back... I don't think the actual game does much to really...

I can't explain it. I just feel Tes 'paladins' are very different. For starters you don't really have that Radiant/Necrotic dichtimony, you don't have gods and demons just good and bad daedra; even necromancy is only sometimes evil. as you don't have class levels there's no power-from the oath, you just train like everybody else but pick up the relevant spells for what you want to do...

When Tes has something like a paladin, it feels more like a DnD throwback than something belonging to the world in it's own right.

[Resileaf]

The class isn't called paladin, it's called crusader. And there are plenty of crusaders, or at least holy warriors, in the setting.

I mean, what is an ordinator if not a holy warrior?

[Keltest]

The class isn't called paladin, it's called crusader. And there are plenty of crusaders, or at least holy warriors, in the setting.

I mean, what is an ordinator if not a holy warrior?

A sword repository, at least in my games.

[factotum]

IIRC the Keyes books had a casual mention that Morrowind had in fact left the Empire - but as that's the only place I recall reading it I doubt it lasted a significant amount of time. They really weren't in good shape to go solo.

The main reason they left, as far as I recall, is because they'd lost faith in the ability of the Empire to protect them--after all, it never came to their aid when the Argonians came knocking, and I don't think there's much talk of assistance being sent to help the victims of the Red Mountain eruption. Anti-Empire leaders got put in place who declared they weren't going to do what the Empire asked anymore, so even if Morrowind is still technically part of the Empire, it doesn't consider itself as such.

[The Jack]

The class isn't called paladin, it's called crusader. And there are plenty of crusaders, or at least holy warriors, in the setting.

I mean, what is an ordinator if not a holy warrior?
A religious soldier is very different from a soldier powered by his religion.


A sword repository, at least in my games.

Was going to say 'good loot'

[Caelestion]

I was under the long-standing assumption that the Red Year was 4E 12. Has it already been ret-conned to 4E 5 or did something else happen in 4E 12 that I'm confusing it with?

[Divayth Fyr]

I was under the long-standing assumption that the Red Year was 4E 12. Has it already been ret-conned to 4E 5 or did something else happen in 4E 12 that I'm confusing it with?
I'm not sure where you got 4E12 from to begin with - can't seem to find anything related to that specific date, even in the old versions of the UESP timeline page.

[Spore]

You miss about half my point. First a "paladin" or "knight" is a stereotype for me, that has to be catered to in at least some extent, either mechanically (heavy armor with weapons and restoration magic) or in spirit (even if Altmer warriors just feel they are 'purging' the world from human and beastkin filth).

Secondly I feel the "there is a mod for that' argument is invalid as much as the argument of 'my head canon says different' is no argument. If someone made up something, or you made up something in your head doesn't mean the base game works without that.

But yes, my inability to form coherent arguments is not doing me any good in that discussion I am afraid. I always struggled with the art of writing precisely.

Plus some of my main complaint is about the rail-roady nature of quests. Meridia does not allow you to side with the necromancer but that is not terribly bad since it is no main quest. It is just odd that you can repeatedly decline her requests and still be sent inside and given the sword. It is about main quests, the most notable situations:

- Cannot decline werewolf form
- Cannot decline worship of Nocturnal (and be present with the skeleton key, the alternate reward was RIGHT THERE!)
- Cannot accept the power of the Eye of Magnus (damn railroady Psijic!)
- Nothing to do aside from burning down the Sanctuary of the Brotherhood (no alternative to killing Grelod)

I am deeply fine with the nature of the civil war quests and the main quest (since you can't simply refuse being the dragonborn since the universe just would stop exisiting then).

[factotum]

- Cannot decline worship of Nocturnal (and be present with the skeleton key, the alternate reward was RIGHT THERE!)

If only if that were the only thing wrong with the Thieves' Guild questline... :smallwink:

Seriously, railroady quests is pretty much a given in Bethesda games for a long time. Even when they *do* appear to give you a choice, it usually doesn't make any difference in the long run--for example, the entire Dawnguard quest line is clearly written with the assumption you'll leave the Dawnguard and become a vampire after rescuing Serana, so if you choose to stay in the Dawnguard it all gets a bit illogical after that.

[veti]

Besides wandering around and just killing stuff, I download a lot of quest mods. Stuff like Forgotten City and things like that. Gives me a bit more mileage. Plus I think SOME of the Daedric quests are fine for a Good character. Meridia's and Azura's spring to mind. Maybe CLavicus Vile, I do 't remember him asking you to do anything bad. And Sanguine's is all right.

Nothing wrong with Sheogorath's. You can slaughter Namira's cannibal cult, fight a giant for Malacath, hunt down Sinding. Oh, and of course if you don't send the Skull of Corruption back to Oblivion, you're a massive scumbag anyway.

(Actually that's one of my beefs: the "compulsory" quests that you just can't ignore. That, and Blood on the Ice, are the worst examples.)

The House of Horrors is a definite downer, but since you have no choice but to kill the idiot Vigilant anyway, I think it's compatible with a paladin character. 'Course you'd need to do some soul-searching and atonement afterwards, but evil acts that are forced on you are forgivable.


I can't explain it. I just feel Tes 'paladins' are very different. For starters you don't really have that Radiant/Necrotic dichtimony, you don't have gods and demons just good and bad daedra; even necromancy is only sometimes evil. as you don't have class levels there's no power-from the oath, you just train like everybody else but pick up the relevant spells for what you want to do...

You seem to consider "paladin" as a D&D class. You know that the word, and its meaning, is much, much older than that, right? - and has nothing to do with spellcasting, or gods or demons.

[Triaxx]

Yes, such railroad to have to complete this quest by completing this quest. Of course you could always simply elect to ignore the quest. Skyrim says here's a quest you can do. It's up to you if you want to undertake it.

[factotum]

Yes, such railroad to have to complete this quest by completing this quest. Of course you could always simply elect to ignore the quest. Skyrim says here's a quest you can do. It's up to you if you want to undertake it.

:smallconfused: It's entirely fair to complain about railroad quests when we've seen from other games that it doesn't have to be like that? Even Bethesda managed to do questlines with proper choices in the Far Harbour expansion for Fallout 4, so they're entirely capable of doing so.

[DigoDragon]

(Actually that's one of my beefs: the "compulsory" quests that you just can't ignore. That, and Blood on the Ice, are the worst examples.)

I liked the ideas behind Blood on the Ice. Execution is off and a bit buggy where you have to wait around for the killer to strike again. And then hope you don't accidentally hit the victim. :smallredface: Like, I wish there was a way to gather evidence on the killer and turn it in to the city guard. Then watch them bust down the killer's door and arrest them.

Bad guards, bad guards, whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

[The Jack]

You seem to consider "paladin" as a D&D class. You know that the word, and its meaning, is much, much older than that, right? - and has nothing to do with spellcasting, or gods or demons.

I'm entirely aware, but the old use is of no relevance to the modern use of the term or the context we're in. It's like wight meaning 'person' or pathetic relating to sympathy.


I consider the nocturnal stuff the most heinous plot point in skyrim before Dawnguard was a thing. You get a tiny buff that was unnecessary and give your soul away to be a security guard for all eternity. It's obviously not worth it. You shouldn't need it. Yet you go through with it. The TG questline is filled with grievous errors, but this one was the worst because it was forced, hardly relevant to the plot (you could've given your soul away at any point and it would've made no difference) and greatly damaging to RP (So I'm playing a moron who gets sucked into cults now?) At least with the Karliah shooting you rather than mercer, it was important to the continuation of the plot, and they tried to justify it. Soul selling? They forced you into it because they made a lightshow with animations and GOD DAMN you have to see that if they're going through the trouble to make it.

[veti]

Of course you could always simply elect to ignore the quest. Skyrim says here's a quest you can do. It's up to you if you want to undertake it.

Not in those two cases, I can't. Not without being wilfully obtuse. I mean, I can turn a blind eye to the sole single Redguard woman in Whiterun, I can (with some difficulty) avoid talking to the idiot vigilant in Markarth, I don't even have to enter the alchemist shop in Windhelm (because there are two general stores in the city). In Falkreath I have a mod that adds a second blacksmith, so I don't have to "catch" that blasted mutt. But some quests throw themselves in my path so obtrusively, I can't ignore them without quite literally pretending to be temporarily deaf.


I'm entirely aware, but the old use is of no relevance to the modern use of the term or the context we're in. It's like wight meaning 'person' or pathetic relating to sympathy.

I disagree. It's entirely possible to discuss paladins as a thing that is quite separate from D&D. The D&D class is merely one interpretation/implementation of the idea. There is no reason to treat anything about it as "authoritative".

About Nocturnal, on the other hand, I completely agree. Although I don't actually mind Dawnguard that much.

[The_Jackal]

I'm entirely aware, but the old use is of no relevance to the modern use of the term or the context we're in. It's like wight meaning 'person' or pathetic relating to sympathy.


I disagree. It's entirely possible to discuss paladins as a thing that is quite separate from D&D. The D&D class is merely one interpretation/implementation of the idea. There is no reason to treat anything about it as "authoritative".

With respect, I think you two are getting hung up on semantics, rather than the core issue, which i suspect all parties would agree on: many of Skyrim's stories are very heavily railroady, in a way that often skews towards the nefarious. If you plumb the depths of most of the scripted Skyrim plotlines, virtually all of them assume your character is willing to undertake some very dark, morally questionable decisions.

Now, personally, I tend not to take issue with such things, because that's just the nature of the medium: There's only road where the game designers have built it, and branching plots of consequence are very expensive. You're effectively constructing hours of content most players might never see. Also, this kind of railroading isn't totally unheard of, even with a living, breathing, in-person GM, in tabletop RPGs. The storyteller has a plot they want to tell, and they're not quite prepared to improvise in the direction that the players want to.

It's these problems that usually drives me away from fussing over the narrative very much in CRPGs, or games in general.

[Aeson]

Eh.... this goes well with my 'class descriptions are the worst' complaint about morrowind. Someone splurged over their keyboard because they could write that thing that was cool in that DnD game they played a while back... I don't think the actual game does much to really...

I can't explain it. I just feel Tes 'paladins' are very different. For starters you don't really have that Radiant/Necrotic dichtimony, you don't have gods and demons just good and bad daedra; even necromancy is only sometimes evil. as you don't have class levels there's no power-from the oath, you just train like everybody else but pick up the relevant spells for what you want to do...

When Tes has something like a paladin, it feels more like a DnD throwback than something belonging to the world in it's own right.
I'm really not sure what your problem with the class descriptions is. A crusader, in modern English, is very much someone who has dedicated themselves, often to an almost-fanatical extent, to a struggle against something that they see as evil, while the 'traditional' image of a knight is that of the honorable noble warrior bound by the codes of chivalry who probably goes off on knightly quests and rescues fair damsels from horrid beasts or some other such nonsense. This isn't "contaminating TES with something that was cool in D&D," it's adapting modern concepts to the setting. There are reasonably strong similarities with D&D's Paladins, but this should be unsurprising - D&D's Paladins are derived from the same cultural archetype of the noble questing warrior bound by a chivalric code and crusading against evil from which the descriptions of the Crusader and Knight classes in Morrowind and Oblivion are drawn.

If you really want to complain about D&D concepts contaminating TES games, maybe try the spellcasting-in-armor penalty that Oblivion had and Morrowind did not, which made certain schools of magic effectively worthless for the mage-knight/spellsword/arcane warrior or whatever else you might want to call it at higher levels.

[LibraryOgre]

With respect, I think you two are getting hung up on semantics, rather than the core issue, which i suspect all parties would agree on: many of Skyrim's stories are very heavily railroady, in a way that often skews towards the nefarious. If you plumb the depths of most of the scripted Skyrim plotlines, virtually all of them assume your character is willing to undertake some very dark, morally questionable decisions.

Now, personally, I tend not to take issue with such things, because that's just the nature of the medium: There's only road where the game designers have built it, and branching plots of consequence are very expensive. You're effectively constructing hours of content most players might never see. Also, this kind of railroading isn't totally unheard of, even with a living, breathing, in-person GM, in tabletop RPGs. The storyteller has a plot they want to tell, and they're not quite prepared to improvise in the direction that the players want to.

It's these problems that usually drives me away from fussing over the narrative very much in CRPGs, or games in general.

I think it would've been interesting, for example, to include a "Stop the Thieves Guild" option in the Thieves Guild questline. Like the Dark Brotherhood option, it would've locked you out of a fair amount of material (after all, you can't do Snow Veil Sanctum without Mercer Frey), but it at least would've given you some options for "I am not a horrible person."

Molag Baal? How about NOlag Baal.
I think the world would be a better place if I wiped out the Boethiah worshipers.
Hey, Companions, I'm not going to murder you all, but Aleia, you say you have a job for me?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I think it would've been interesting, for example, to include a "Stop the Thieves Guild" option in the Thieves Guild questline. Like the Dark Brotherhood option, it would've locked you out of a fair amount of material (after all, you can't do Snow Veil Sanctum without Mercer Frey), but it at least would've given you some options for "I am not a horrible person."

Very much this. While we're wishing, how about an option to turn in that Argonian who wants you to get that ship sunk and then backstabs you?

[Keltest]

I think it would've been interesting, for example, to include a "Stop the Thieves Guild" option in the Thieves Guild questline. Like the Dark Brotherhood option, it would've locked you out of a fair amount of material (after all, you can't do Snow Veil Sanctum without Mercer Frey), but it at least would've given you some options for "I am not a horrible person."

Molag Baal? How about NOlag Baal.
I think the world would be a better place if I wiped out the Boethiah worshipers.
Hey, Companions, I'm not going to murder you all, but Aleia, you say you have a job for me?

My big problem is that you literally have to do the "join the thieves guild" quest as part of the main quest. While to an extent I can understand a spy having good relations with the underworld elements, some sort of "im with the Blades, let me skip the illegal song and dance" option would have been nice. I don't need your coin, just let me pay you.

[InvisibleBison]

My big problem is that you literally have to do the "join the thieves guild" quest as part of the main quest. While to an extent I can understand a spy having good relations with the underworld elements, some sort of "im with the Blades, let me skip the illegal song and dance" option would have been nice. I don't need your coin, just let me pay you.

What part of the main quest requires you to join the Thieves' Guild?

[Resileaf]

What part of the main quest requires you to join the Thieves' Guild?

Iirc, it's something like you have to do the beginning of the Thieves' guild questline to get their help. An exchange of services, so to speak.
It just so happens that the service you accomplish for them makes you part of the guild.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

My big problem is that you literally have to do the "join the thieves guild" quest as part of the main quest. While to an extent I can understand a spy having good relations with the underworld elements, some sort of "im with the Blades, let me skip the illegal song and dance" option would have been nice. I don't need your coin, just let me pay you.

Can't you get the same info from the lady who runs the Bee and Barb? Or just find Esbern by wandering the sewers?

[Keltest]

Can't you get the same info from the lady who runs the Bee and Barb? Or just find Esbern by wandering the sewers?

You know, ive never actually asked the innkeeper. And yeah, technically you can just ignore the Thieves Guild and just go to where he is manually, but from an immersion perspective I find that undesirable.

[Triaxx]

If you know where Esbern is, you can totally skip Brynjolf and head to the man himself. Everything goes normally.

[Celestia]

You can also just tell Brynjolf that you're trying to stop the dragons, and he'll tell you about Esbern for free. I do think it requires a persuasion check, though.

[veti]

What part of the main quest requires you to join the Thieves' Guild?

You don't have to.

I think you do have to join the College, though. Which is just as much of a drag. I'm not sure the College plotline, if you choose to follow it through, isn't even worse than the Guild one.

[Triaxx]

Even the college can be ignored if you remember where Septimus Signus outpost is. Or are willing to wander around looking for it on the ice sheet.

[factotum]

And what justification do you offer for your character magically knowing where these places are, Triaxx? I mean, I know it's only a computer RPG and thus a collection of bits and bytes, but some of us do like to at least *try* to stay in character. (Which is why I get annoyed when my assassin character tries to kill Ancano for giving her lip, and the game doesn't allow it...).

Also, knowing where places are doesn't always help. If you go to the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary before killing Grelod the Kind and having your meeting with Astrid, you can't do anything there and you can't tell the guards about it--the only way to destroy the Brotherhood is to start the Dark Brotherhood questline and then kill Astrid in the Abandoned Shack.

[Spore]

How do you enter the sanctuary without the passcode?

[Celestia]

And what justification do you offer for your character magically knowing where these places are, Triaxx?
CHIM more letters

[veti]

How do you enter the sanctuary without the passcode?

You don't, that's exactly the point. You also can't watch the door and wait, nobody will ever enter or leave the place. Ever.

I'm not sure if it's really the railroading I mind. I've enjoyed plenty of games that were way more railroady than Skyrim. I think it's more the sheer nonsensical badness of the script that you have to sit through, to get anything done.

[Triaxx]

Usually it's from punching the Jarl in Winterhold and finding it on my way back from prison. But also my characters tend to wander just about everywhere, so I always find Septimus early.

[factotum]

Usually it's from punching the Jarl in Winterhold and finding it on my way back from prison. But also my characters tend to wander just about everywhere, so I always find Septimus early.

If you're genuinely just wandering about randomly that's fine. It's when you're *pretending* to wander randomly when secretly you're looking for a place your character shouldn't know exists it gets iffy.

[Keltest]

I don't mind joining the College so much because its a legitimate organization and, as the Dragonborn, you have a unique flavor of magic whether you like it or not. It has no specific or implicit roleplaying obligations and is occasionally a useful resource to have.

[Resileaf]

The way I see it, joining those organizations can be considered to be more something that the organizations want rather than what the game designer wants. Imagine the prestige you would gain from being able to say "Yeah, the Dragonborn is in our gang". Even if you're not necessarily doing anything for them, you're still part of their group. Both the Thieves' guild and the College are down on their luck and are at risk of disappearing, so the boost in notoriety they could claim from Dragonborn membership would be impressive by any measure.

So think of it less like doing something awful and more like being pressured to join an exclusive club so they can brag to their buddies they got to meet the Dragonborn.

[Celestia]

I don't mind joining the College so much because its a legitimate organization and, as the Dragonborn, you have a unique flavor of magic whether you like it or not. It has no specific or implicit roleplaying obligations and is occasionally a useful resource to have.
Six flavors of training (including three master trainers) and the only way to get high level spells. Plus, five merchants to sell things to. Seems like useful stuff.

[LibraryOgre]

So, fun quests that might have existed:

1) For Riften, kill the Thieves' Guild. Bonus, because of Maven Blackbriar, this would result in you not being able to join the Dark Brotherhood.
2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
3) For Whiterun, a non-werewolf option to advance the quest. I mean, come on, do I REALLY need to be a werewolf to help you kill the werewolf hunters, Aeia? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone along who DOESN'T take bonus damage from silver?

I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.

[Celestia]

So, fun quests that might have existed:

1) For Riften, kill the Thieves' Guild. Bonus, because of Maven Blackbriar, this would result in you not being able to join the Dark Brotherhood.
2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
3) For Whiterun, a non-werewolf option to advance the quest. I mean, come on, do I REALLY need to be a werewolf to help you kill the werewolf hunters, Aeia? Wouldn't it be nice to have someone along who DOESN'T take bonus damage from silver?

I now kinda want to run a Skyrim game in TT, just to allow some of these weird repercussions to happen.
That's just plain bad game design there.

[Divayth Fyr]

2) For Winterhold, kill the Mages College. I think it would be best if this has some wild reprecussions, since they're generally put forward as "not bad if a bit uncaring", as opposed to actively evil.
Unlike the Thieves/Brotherhood the College is a legal organization that - at least officially - works within the confines of law. Kinda like suggesting a "Kill the Bard's College" quest here ;P

[Resileaf]

I think Skyrim and Oblivion could do with not having protected characters. Although I suppose that it's pretty much inevitable since they can die from anything that isn't you, and it would kind of suck to have an important character just die constantly in a quest because a dragon decided to chomp Delphine.
Not that I would shed tears for her, but y'know, you do need her to continue the main quest.

[LibraryOgre]

That's just plain bad game design there.

Not so much bad game design as a consequence of the world design. Maven Blackbriar has her fingers deep in the bungholes of both the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild... you rip off one of her fingers, she's not going to let you play with the other one.


Unlike the Thieves/Brotherhood the College is a legal organization that - at least officially - works within the confines of law. Kinda like suggesting a "Kill the Bard's College" quest here ;P

Which is why you have more severe consequences for it, even if it's something the Jarl really wants you to do, even if he doesn't say so out loud.

[Celestia]

Not so much bad game design as a consequence of the world design. Maven Blackbriar has her fingers deep in the bungholes of both the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild... you rip off one of her fingers, she's not going to let you play with the other one.



Which is why you have more severe consequences for it, even if it's something the Jarl really wants you to do, even if he doesn't say so out loud.
No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.

[Keltest]

No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.

I would also add that unlike the TG, the DB is not beholden to the Blackbriars and, especially without the TG at her disposal, would not care overmuch about her opinion.

[LibraryOgre]

No. It's bad game design. There is no logical reason why rejecting one faction should bar you from another, unrelated faction. Maybe it makes sense in universe, but you're just going to piss off the player for no reason.

Because (Keltest's clarification aside), they're not unrelated. They're related by a shared patron (though, as Keltest points out, I was wrong about the degree of influence Maven had on the DB).

[The Jack]

Maven blackbriar always pissed me off
Because she's an ass
Her power is imaginary.
She's no good.

She walks around town, one of the greatest criminals of skyrim, and she wants you to know how bad she is....

The only thing that protects her really, is that she's essential.

It's terrible game/story design. I can't fathom why they thought she was a good idea.


I miss the days of morrowind; You could kill essentials, even gods, and you could also steal everything not nailed down (there was no need for invisible chests under the map)

Games should go back to that. Maybe they could get better at it, maybe they could have replacements for characters. But they should definitely try to go back to that.

[Celestia]

{Scrubbed}

[Resileaf]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Well that depends on how much immersion you want in the game world, I suppose.

[Celestia]

Well that depends on how much immersion you want in the game world, I suppose.
It doesn't matter how immersive the world is if the mechanics piss off the player. That'll pull them right out of the experience even worse than slight hiccups in the internal logic.

[Keltest]

It doesn't matter how immersive the world is if the mechanics piss off the player. That'll pull them right out of the experience even worse than slight hiccups in the internal logic.

I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.

In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.

[Celestia]

I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.

In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.
The thing is, you're trying to do the exact opposite of Morrowind. In that game, joining certain factions would harm your relationships with others, but not joining did nothing. You're proposing a system where rejecting one faction also rejects another. Actions should have consequences, yes, but non-actions should not. If you put this system into place, then you'll just end up having a game that forcefully shoehorns the player into joining factions they didn't want to join just so that they won't be banned from the ones they do. That's a one way street to pissed off players.

[Keltest]

The thing is, you're trying to do the exact opposite of Morrowind. In that game, joining certain factions would harm your relationships with others, but not joining did nothing. You're proposing a system where rejecting one faction also rejects another. Actions should have consequences, yes, but non-actions should not. If you put this system into place, then you'll just end up having a game that forcefully shoehorns the player into joining factions they didn't want to join just so that they won't be banned from the ones they do. That's a one way street to pissed off players.

Theres a difference between not joining a faction and actively dismantling it.

[Resileaf]

Just doing the main quest in Morrowind makes a bunch of important people hate you enough that if you show up in Vivec, you get attacked by guards. And you certainly haven't done anything like dismantle an entire organization (although you're technically in the process of doing it, I suppose).

[Celestia]

Theres a difference between not joining a faction and actively dismantling it.
And? The only other choice is doing nothing at all, and not playing the game should never been seen as a legitimate in-game option.

[Keltest]

And? The only other choice is doing nothing at all, and not playing the game should never been seen as a legitimate in-game option.

I don't understand what you mean. Yes, you can join the faction, ignore it, or antagonize it. Choosing the first makes them and their friends like you, the second one does nothing for or against you, and the last one makes them and their friends actively dislike you.

What is the problem?

[The_Jackal]

Maven blackbriar always pissed me off
Because she's an ass
Her power is imaginary.
She's no good.

She walks around town, one of the greatest criminals of skyrim, and she wants you to know how bad she is....

The only thing that protects her really, is that she's essential.

I'm not a fan of the essential tag either, but it's also just a necessary constraint of the medium. The designers can't anticipate every single person you'll want to merc and create a list of alternate mission actors to carry out their role when they're dead. That said, Maven's power isn't imaginary. She's just not more powerful than the Dovakhiin, literally the most powerful individual on Tamriel who isn't a Daedra. John Gotti wasn't a feared mobster because someone was worried he was going to punch through their sternum like Mola Ram (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0S8JZ6YO5c). He was feared because there were a bunch of other dangerous people who obeyed him.

[Divayth Fyr]

Well, I'm of the opinion that if you go around murdering npcs for ****s and giggles (or simply since you don't like them) you should be prepared to being unable to do some of the content.

[Celestia]

I don't understand what you mean. Yes, you can join the faction, ignore it, or antagonize it. Choosing the first makes them and their friends like you, the second one does nothing for or against you, and the last one makes them and their friends actively dislike you.

What is the problem?
Because your options are join a faction you don't want to join, ruin your chance of joining a faction you to want to join, or not play the game. In other words, your options are bad, more bad, and worst. I really don't get how this is so difficult.

[Keltest]

Because your options are join a faction you don't want to join, ruin your chance of joining a faction you to want to join, or not play the game. In other words, your options are bad, more bad, and worst. I really don't get how this is so difficult.

Because those aren't your options at all? Why on earth do you think you would be forced to join a faction you don't want to join? And if you want to join another faction, you should probably think twice before antagonizing its friends.

[Celestia]

Because those aren't your options at all? Why on earth do you think you would be forced to join a faction you don't want to join? And if you want to join another faction, you should probably think twice before antagonizing its friends.
Okay, it's clear that you're just not even reading my posts, so I'm done with this pointless argument.

[Silverraptor]

Hey, I haven't explored much of the civil war to know how it works, but if you finish the civil war and completed it with either of the 2 sides declaring victory, do all the quests in the towns that were conquered remain the same as if you didn't join the civil war? What I mean is, if you haven't really explored like, say Riften, and then help the Empire reclaim Riften and win the war, are all the available quests to start in Riften still there for the questing?:smallconfused:

[Keltest]

Okay, it's clear that you're just not even reading my posts, so I'm done with this pointless argument.

I am reading them. Youre just being inconsistent and explaining yourself poorly. At no point did anybody mention being forced to join factions you didn't want to, that was something you just brought up out of the blue without prompting. Youre trying to convince us that its bad game design to have your actions involving one faction lock you out of a different faction, but you aren't actually doing anything to explain why this is bad. You said something about being punished for your lack of action, but doing, say, the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest is in fact an action and deliberate choice.


Hey, I haven't explored much of the civil war to know how it works, but if you finish the civil war and completed it with either of the 2 sides declaring victory, do all the quests in the towns that were conquered remain the same as if you didn't join the civil war? What I mean is, if you haven't really explored like, say Riften, and then help the Empire reclaim Riften and win the war, are all the available quests to start in Riften still there for the questing?:smallconfused:

Most of them yes. There are a few NPCs, mostly Thalmor, who disappear if the Stormcloaks win, and obviously any quests directly involving the Civil War become unavailable, but otherwise the quests in the towns are largely separate from the war.

[factotum]

Most of them yes. There are a few NPCs, mostly Thalmor, who disappear if the Stormcloaks win, and obviously any quests directly involving the Civil War become unavailable, but otherwise the quests in the towns are largely separate from the war.

They even make sure that the jarls and their stewards who get kicked out of the towns as you capture them for one side or the other are still available in case you had any open quests with them--all the Empire-loving ones end up in the basement of the Blue Palace in Solitude, and the Stormcloak ones are in the palace in Windhelm.

[Resileaf]

Sadly, the civil war storyline was a bit half-assed due to time constraints, so a lot of things around it are a bit lacking. It's a lot of wasted potential.

[Aeson]

Just doing the main quest in Morrowind makes a bunch of important people hate you enough that if you show up in Vivec, you get attacked by guards. And you certainly haven't done anything like dismantle an entire organization (although you're technically in the process of doing it, I suppose).
You can get the Ordinators to hate you and attack you on sight just by wearing a piece of armor you can get as a quest reward for some random side-quest in Vivec itself (Mysterious Killings in Vivec (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Mysterious_Killings_in_Vivec)). The guy who gives you the armor - an Ordinator higher-up, essentially - warns you that the Ordinators will likely attack you if they see you wearing it, and my recollection is that it's a lot less reversible and arguably less avoidable than the Ordinator hostility encountered during the Main Quest.

[LibraryOgre]

I disagree. Let your actions have consequences. Factions don't exist completely in a vacuum. If you, say, destroy the Dark Brotherhood, don't expect the Thieve's Guild to just ignore that youre a completely untrustworthy death sentence to have around.

In Oblivion and Morrowind, different factions had relationships with each other, and membership in one faction could preclude good relationships with another. Morrowind in particular actually had you antagonize different factions which were otherwise largely unrelated as part of some guild quests.

I agree with Keltest, here. One of the annoying things for me is how LITTLE reputation counts in Skyrim. I'm Harbinger of the Companions, Head of the Mage's College, Thane of different holds, and openly carrying several daedric artifacts... and guards in Riften, where I've just shown up, will comment on me being a sneak-thief (despite only having like a 30 Pickpocket and 100 in six other skills), or try to shake me down at the gate.

[The Jack]

John Gotti wasn't a feared mobster because someone was worried he was going to punch through their sternum like Mola Ram (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0S8JZ6YO5c). He was feared because there were a bunch of other dangerous people who obeyed him.

Context. It's a lot harder to kill someone and get away with it in the modern world than it is in skyrim. In skyrim you've got small goverment, powers, easy access to armour and weapons... There's little comparison.

If Maven Blackbriar had a guard that rivaled a dragon priest, or some magic item, or secluded herself in well defended places, or had an active network around her at all times, or maybe if she herself had some ability, then I'd buy it.

Maven has none of these things. She's a commoner who walks around in daylight with no concern. She's rude, she's arrogant, everybody hates her, and I happen to be a stranger with nothing to lose that anybody knows about and a pair of discount invisibility potions...

Thing is, It'd be really cool if they'd actually set up Maven with something plausible, but they don't. She's the kind of character that, in a pen and paper game, I'd spend several sessions working out a plan to kill someone with such status, but in skyrim She has money, she has ties, and some prick say stuff when you enter the city; But the only thing that stops you from bashing her head in with a candle holder is the fact that she's essential.

She has the kind of reputation that'd demand an epic assassination quest, but the character herself in practice is severely lacking.

[Keltest]

Context. It's a lot harder to kill someone and get away with it in the modern world than it is in skyrim. In skyrim you've got small goverment, powers, easy access to armour and weapons... There's little comparison.

If Maven Blackbriar had a guard that rivaled a dragon priest, or some magic item, or secluded herself in well defended places, or had an active network around her at all times, or maybe if she herself had some ability, then I'd buy it.

Maven has none of these things. She's a commoner who walks around in daylight with no concern. She's rude, she's arrogant, everybody hates her, and I happen to be a stranger with nothing to lose that anybody knows about and a pair of discount invisibility potions...

Thing is, It'd be really cool if they'd actually set up Maven with something plausible, but they don't. She's the kind of character that, in a pen and paper game, I'd spend several sessions working out a plan to kill someone with such status, but in skyrim She has money, she has ties, and some prick say stuff when you enter the city; But the only thing that stops you from bashing her head in with a candle holder is the fact that she's essential.

She has the kind of reputation that'd demand an epic assassination quest, but the character herself in practice is severely lacking.

And this is before you take into account the fact that as Dragonborn we can literally shout her into last week, and nobody can do anything to stop you, preemptively or otherwise.