Villainous Competition XXXI: In Cold Blood

[jdizzlean]

Welcome to Round 30 of the Villainous Competition!

Previous Competitions

Round One: Leader of Armies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395046)
Round Two: Nature's Revenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400517)
Round Three: Double Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406015)
Round Four: Grave Keeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413480)
Round Five: Crime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420704)
Round Six: Ultimate Predator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430650)
Round Seven: Wicked Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444478)
Round Eight: Master of the Tundra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461482)
Round Nine: The Power of Villainous Thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474230)
Round Ten: Henchman Are Villains Too (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478068)
Round Eleven: The Higher They Rise The Harder They Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483052)
Round Twelve: Power Comes at a Price (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488846)
Round Thirteen: The Gadgeteer - You Are Not Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491932)
Round Fourteen: The Thing That Should Not Be (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496091)
Round Fifteen: The Horsemen Are Drawing Nearer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500829)
Round Sixteen: Burn Baby Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503974)
Round Seventeen: It's Alive! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507768)
Round Eighteen: This is Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511933)
Round Nineteen: He Slimed Me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516535)
Round Twenty: Elder Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521560)
Round Twenty-One: Yarr! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527415-Villainous-Competition-XXI-Yarr!)
Round Twenty-Two: I Am The Night! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531199-Villainous-Competition-XXII-I-Am-The-Night!)
Round Twenty-Three: Two Heads Are Better Than One! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535437-Villainous-Competition-XXIII-Two-Heads-Are-Better-Than-One)
Round Twenty-Four: Wrong For The Right Reasons! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541650-Villainous-Competition-XXIV-Wrong-For-The-Right-Reasons)
Round Twenty-Five: Keeper of the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550139-Villainous-Competition-XXV-No-Solicitors!)
Round Twenty-Six: Get In MY BELLY (Swallow Whole) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556705-Villainous-Competition-XXVI-Swallow-Whole!)
Round Twenty-Seven: Multiple Personality Disorder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559748-Villainous-Competition-XXVII-Multiple-Personality-Disorder)
Round Twenty-Eight: Tiny Only! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565176-Villainous-Competition-XXVIII-Bad-Things-Come-in-Small-Packages)
Round Twenty-Nine: Halloween Special (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573496-Villainous-Competition-XXIX-A-Halloween-Special)
Round Thirty: One Feat to Rule Them ALL (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577930-Villainous-Competition-XXX-One-Feat-to-Rule-Them-ALL)


We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

Contestants:
You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Secret Laboratory:
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

Deadlines:
Contestants will have until 23:59 MST Saturday March 30th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 MST Saturday April 13th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

Judging:
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
Originality - Is it unexpected?
Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

Presentation:
Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Note:
There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.


CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


Code immediately below (spoiler).

CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


You can use the table below for Spells.

Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code Immediately Below,
Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Speculation:
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:


In Cold Blood!
Dragons/Reptiles Galore!!



Limitations



Only PrC’s, Classes, Races, Feats, and Books (or other sources) that have the words “Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie) in the title/sub title/description are allowed
Races must contain one of the above in name, type, or subtype
-If a creature is clearly one of the above, such as a cobra, but doesn’t explicitly state “snake” in its name/type/subtype, this is obviously still allowed as a racial option (because it would simply be an animal or other type)
Draconomicon is allowed
Dungeons and Dragons on the cover does not qualify a source
CAN use PHB 1&2, Monster Manuals 1-5, and DMG 1 & 2
Only Draconic or General Feats allowed
Unless those feats are from the PHB 1-2, MM 1-5, or DMG 1-2


We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
So, start your evil plotting!



Entry
Creator
Lionheart's Score
ben-zayb's Score
Total
Rank


Vaakvaal
Falontani
12.00
15.00
27.00
1st


Destroyer-of-Mirrors
TwoLegsArmchair
11.50
13.00
24.50
2nd



Lord Rust

GrayDeath
11.50
12.50
24.00
3rd



Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

PM: Jdizzlean
Subject: Villainous Competition 31, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 31 Questions in the header.

Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:


- Use capitalization and punctuation, correctly.
- Make good use of Spoilers, for cleanliness.
- Don't forget your sources. If it's something that can be found in the contents section, then book title seems to be fine. Obscure stuff, may want to include page number too.
- DeviantArt has about 9 billion pictures that you can reference, I can almost guarantee you can find one there to fit your character.
- Make good use of tables. In addition to the Build table and the Spells table, I like doing on e for my Ability Scores, just to keep it neat.
- Do a build stub at the top of your Build Table, something like Wizard 2/Fighter 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10



As always: let's keep it nice.

I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.

New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

Novolin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?148361-Novolin)
Yklikt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?133435-Yklikt)

[jdizzlean]

Clarifications

Once again, there is what appears to be a debate as to the limitations for this round. To spare myself countless edits to the main posts, PLEASE READ THE THREAD prior to starting your build, not just the first post... There are some clarifications posted Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23752001&postcount=18) and Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23749953&postcount=7).
and Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23752159&postcount=20)...

Unearthed Arcana variant rules are limited: The variant character options (such as Wildshape Ranger and Thug Fighter) should not be penalized. Flaws and traits may be penalized by judges, whereas item familiars, gestalt, alternate skill systems, alternate magic systems, alternate crafting rules, generic base classes, LA buyoff, fractional saves/BAB, and bloodlines are banned. Anything not mentioned here is up to individual judges.

d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
- I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
- For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
- For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
- Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.

-This space reserved for an appropriate image to be applied later-


Everyone, have fun!

[Thurbane]

Hmm, I did have a build in mind for a Cold Blood theme, but the extra stipulations will mean a return to the drawing board.

Definitely in to cook: reptilians are my favorite bad guys in all the games I DM.

[jdizzlean]

Hmm, I did have a build in mind for a Cold Blood theme, but the extra stipulations will mean a return to the drawing board.

Definitely in to cook: reptilians are my favorite bad guys in all the games I DM.

I'm glad i could trip you up considering this is the round you requested after judging a while back :)


plus, this could double as the kaiju round folks have been asking for

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, got an Idea. Wont be able to check if its valid till the weekend, but if it is, the build is mostly done already. ;)

[remetagross]

Limitations

Draconomicon is allowed
Dungeons and Dragons on the cover does not qualify a source
CAN use PHB 1&2, Monster Manuals 1-5, and DMG 1 & 2


I'm not sure I've understood that limitation properly. Why would Draconomicon otherwise be barred? What sources are not automatically included by the fact that they have "Dungeons and Dragons" on the cover?



Limitations

Only Draconic or General Feats allowed
Unless those feats are from the PHB 1-2, MM 1-5, or DMG 1-2


What is a "General" feat for this purpose? Is it a feat which has no descriptors at all? What if a feat has [Draconic] as well as, say, [Metamagic]?

Thanks chairman! These limitations are sometimes a little confusing!

[jdizzlean]

I'm not sure I've understood that limitation properly. Why would Draconomicon otherwise be barred? What sources are not automatically included by the fact that they have "Dungeons and Dragons" on the cover?



What is a "General" feat for this purpose? Is it a feat which has no descriptors at all? What if a feat has [Draconic] as well as, say, [Metamagic]?

Thanks chairman! These limitations are sometimes a little confusing!

1. draco (to me at least) seems like an obvious inclusion in


the words “Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie) in the title/sub title/description are allowed

however i know folks like to pick the limitations apart, so i included that it's ok as it relates to dragons after all.

as an example of "Dungeons and Dragons" being on the cover, but not being a qualified source, consider TOme of Battle. Unless the class/feat/prc/other build function also likewise had the above clarifying words in it, you can't use Tome of Battle at all. The same would go for every other source out there.

2. if you look in the PHB for example, there is a rather large list of "general feats" on page 90. this precludes things like psionic feats, reserve feats, monstrous feats, etc etc UNLESS they also contain the above descriptors, or come from one of the allowed sources or allowed sources that contain those same descriptors in their title such as "Races of the Dragon". A Draconic feat is an obvious reference to a dragon, which is an allowed descriptor and would be ok. Metamagic feats would have to either come from an allowed source, or have an allowed descriptor in their name.

an example of some feats that would have 1 of those descriptors: Dragonwrought, or Gape of the Serpent.


and no problem, i realize that my limitations are generally a bit more convoluted than what was the norm before i took over, my intent is simply to force you to think outside the proverbial box and get a little more creative.

[Lionheart]

Got an idea cooking already ;)

[Falontani]

alright, so let me get this straight.

PHB, PHB2, MM 1-5, DMG, and DMG 2 are the only books that are allowed to be used.

From all other core books whatever ability/feat/class/etc that we would like to use must have one of the following words, "Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie)" are allowed.

So this allows: Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Draconimonicon, and any other book with the allotted words in the title, while also allowing feats from books without it in the title like Gape of the Serpent (because it has Serpent) from Savage Species.

Very interesting. I am in to cook, although this will be... interesting.

[remetagross]

Ok, thanks for the clarification :smallsmile: so Serpent Kingdoms is in as well? I guess "Dragon Magazine" is still out though :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

Let's compile the valid sources:

Draconomicon
Dragon Compendium (but not Dragon Magazine)
Dragon Magic
Dragonmarked (Eberron)
Dragons of Eberron
Dragons of Faerun, including the web enhancement
DMG and DMG II
MM I-V
PHB and PHB II
Races of the Dragon
Serpent Kingdoms (FR)

Fun Fact Into the Dragon's Lair (FR 3.0) and Voyage of the Golden Dragon (Eberron) are adventure modules with "Dragon" in their name

The individual feats, PrCs, etc. outside those sources, though, I leave to the chefs.

[PrismCat21]

To the Chair
The limitations are confusing and I don't want to deal with it as it is now.
They need to be reworded to make them more clear.

You've somewhat clarified your limitations in a post later in the thread. Those rough clarifications need to be edited into the opening post.

[WhamBamSam]

I think Draconomicon actually says that Dragons are warm blooded, but whatever. I'm down.

EDIT: If an allowed book references a book outside of the list of allowed sources is that legal? For example, do Gem Dragons manifest per the instructions if you use XPH, or cast as Sorcerers for this competition?

[Falontani]

If an allowed book references a book outside of the list of allowed sources is that legal? For example, do Gem Dragons manifest per the instructions if you use XPH, or cast as Sorcerers for this competition?
Also: spells/powers. Obviously we have the ones from the listed books, but if we break into gem Dragon and psionics in general (or incarnum with the incarnum Dragon, or maneuvers with Wyrm of War, etc) can we use the material needed (ie xph powers, soulmelds from moi, or maneuvers from tob from my examples)

trying to be inclusive with my examples so as to not specifically call out a Build someone may use

[Segev]

Given the existence of Draconic bloodlines, I'm surprised bloodlines are entirely banned.

[WhamBamSam]

Also: spells/powers. Obviously we have the ones from the listed books, but if we break into gem Dragon and psionics in general (or incarnum with the incarnum Dragon, or maneuvers with Wyrm of War, etc) can we use the material needed (ie xph powers, soulmelds from moi, or maneuvers from tob from my examples)

trying to be inclusive with my examples so as to not specifically call out a Build someone may useI suspect that the Incarnum Dragon is just banned and we can't use spells from disallowed sources. In cases like the Gem Dragon or the ToB variant Wyrm of War, we might get access to powers from XPH, and Tiger Claw maneuvers from ToB respectively.

[Thurbane]

So, maybe I'm misreading, but there's a set list of books? Because the wording "Can use" and "is allowed" is confusing me a bit.

I'm going to be honest: the restrictions on this round are doing my head in, and not in a good way. Maybe it's just me. :smallfrown:

[jdizzlean]

.

PHB, PHB2, MM 1-5, DMG, and DMG 2 are the only books that are allowed to be used.

From all other core books whatever ability/feat/class/etc that we would like to use must have one of the following words, "Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie)" are allowed.

So this allows: Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Draconimonicon, and any other book with the allotted words in the title, while also allowing feats from books without it in the title like Gape of the Serpent (because it has Serpent) from Savage Species.

Very interesting. I am in to cook, although this will be... interesting.

No. Those books are explicitly called out as options beyond the "must have this in the title" in order to give you options. You can use anything from those books as if they explicitly had one of the qualifying descriptors in their title.


Let's compile the valid sources:

Draconomicon
Dragon Compendium (but not Dragon Magazine)
Dragon Magic
Dragonmarked (Eberron)
Dragons of Eberron
Dragons of Faerun, including the web enhancement
DMG and DMG II
MM I-V
PHB and PHB II
Races of the Dragon
Serpent Kingdoms (FR)

Fun Fact Into the Dragon's Lair (FR 3.0) and Voyage of the Golden Dragon (Eberron) are adventure modules with "Dragon" in their name

The individual feats, PrCs, etc. outside those sources, though, I leave to the chefs.




EDIT: If an allowed book references a book outside of the list of allowed sources is that legal? For example, do Gem Dragons manifest per the instructions if you use XPH, or cast as Sorcerers for this competition?



Also: spells/powers. Obviously we have the ones from the listed books, but if we break into gem Dragon and psionics in general (or incarnum with the incarnum Dragon, or maneuvers with Wyrm of War, etc) can we use the material needed (ie xph powers, soulmelds from moi, or maneuvers from tob from my examples)

trying to be inclusive with my examples so as to not specifically call out a Build someone may use

A gem dragon would qualify as a legal option regardless of what book you pulled it from, because it has one of the qualifying descriptors in it's entry title "dragon". Whichever book you're pulling it from would have the rules as to what you're using, either manifesting, maneuvers or spells.


as long as a source is otherwise legal for the normal competition you can use it in this round. Dragon magazine, despite 1) not being a book, and 2) still banned from competition, is still not a valid source simply because it has the descriptor "Dragon" in it's title line.


@Prism, 2nd post updated.

[WhamBamSam]

A gem dragon would qualify as a legal option regardless of what book you pulled it from, because it has one of the qualifying descriptors in it's entry title "dragon". Whichever book you're pulling it from would have the rules as to what you're using, either manifesting, maneuvers or spells.I understand that Gem Dragons are legal. But they say that they cast as Sorcerers unless you use XPH, in which case they manifest as Cha-based Psions with various primary disciplines. My question is whether they cast as Sorcerers for this competitions or if they can use XPH. I assume probably the former (and similarly that the maneuver variant Wyrm of War in Dragons of Eberron is non-kosher), but wanted clarification.

[jdizzlean]

I understand that Gem Dragons are legal. But they say that they cast as Sorcerers unless you use XPH, in which case they manifest as Cha-based Psions with various primary disciplines. My question is whether they cast as Sorcerers for this competitions or if they can use XPH. I assume probably the former (and similarly that the maneuver variant Wyrm of War in Dragons of Eberron is non-kosher), but wanted clarification.

i would go w/ the former (cast as sorc), however wrym of war would be on the table, simply because both Dragons of Eberron is a valid source, as well as Wrym refers to dragons/snakes in the first place

[PrismCat21]

@Prism, 2nd post updated.

So... everyone else has to do more work by searching the thread to see all the changes, edits, retractions, re-edits, future rules, and anything else that they might have been missed, simply because you don't feel like editing the designated section you specifically made for your own special rules? A simple rephrasing would do wonders...

I can't say I'm the least bit surprised.

[AvatarVecna]

I intend to do a total joke build and then judge everybody's, giving myself a zero for cheating by judging my own entry.

[jdizzlean]

So... everyone else has to do more work by searching the thread to see all the changes, edits, retractions, re-edits, future rules, and anything else that they might have been missed, simply because you don't feel like editing the designated section you specifically made for your own special rules? A simple rephrasing would do wonders...

I can't say I'm the least bit surprised.


maybe i'm getting burned out on chairing, but it seems to me that i could make a round that simply said "build anything" w/ zero limitations, and we'd still have a 2 page discussion as to what qualified as anything. Likewise, having to constantly edit the OP after EVERY SINGLE POST on here gets tedious pretty quickly.

I'm all for discussion on things, but i really hate how every single thing on this board gets constantly ripped to shreds. plus, we're at what, 20 posts? if you can't read 20 posts, then maybe there's bigger issues at work here than me not wanting to constantly revise things. We always tell people to do your build, make your justifications to the judge and go from there, but you seem to want me to set down ironclad rulings for you to operate within that guarantee you a max score. It's not going to happen.

Plus, i'm going to rephrase it for you, then someone else is going to post how it doesn't make sense to them, and they're going to want it rephrased. It never ends. Have some flexibility.

I'm done ranting.

I truly do want to work with everyone, but more often than not I feel like I'm just getting whipped for trying, and it's not fun at all.

[Thurbane]

I truly do want to work with everyone, but more often than not I feel like I'm just getting whipped for trying, and it's not fun at all.

I know the feeling. Part of the reason I stepped down as chair.

I hope my post wasn't too confrontational, but I was honestly just a bit confused by some of the reqs for this round...

[AvatarVecna]

maybe i'm getting burned out on chairing, but it seems to me that i could make a round that simply said "build anything" w/ zero limitations, and we'd still have a 2 page discussion as to what qualified as anything. Likewise, having to constantly edit the OP after EVERY SINGLE POST on here gets tedious pretty quickly.

I'm all for discussion on things, but i really hate how every single thing on this board gets constantly ripped to shreds. plus, we're at what, 20 posts? if you can't read 20 posts, then maybe there's bigger issues at work here than me not wanting to constantly revise things. We always tell people to do your build, make your justifications to the judge and go from there, but you seem to want me to set down ironclad rulings for you to operate within that guarantee you a max score. It's not going to happen.

Plus, i'm going to rephrase it for you, then someone else is going to post how it doesn't make sense to them, and they're going to want it rephrased. It never ends. Have some flexibility.

I'm done ranting.

I truly do want to work with everyone, but more often than not I feel like I'm just getting whipped for trying, and it's not fun at all.

You have my sympathies. In one of the rounds I chaired, where I had made the Humanoid type off-limits, one of the participants fought tooth and nail with absolutely everybody that Humans weren't Humanoids in order to insist their entry was legal.

EDIT: I guess my point is that nitpicking is just kinda in the contest's blood, and it gets to us all. :smallfrown:

[Falontani]

I personally only ask for clarification because one of the worst feelings I've had on this board was pouring hours of work into a build that for ripped apart and deemed illegal several times over. Undeterred and determined I continue to enter and hope to eventually get a gold, but that won't happen if I ignore the competition rules of the month (don't get me wrong, I love the obstacle thrown in the way. It makes it more difficult to find something that is my style but awesome). So I work towards clarity on my own part

[maxion]

And as I guess, feats that qualify for some dragon/snake PrCs don't suddenly become legal for this purpose?

[jdizzlean]

And as I guess, feats that qualify for some dragon/snake PrCs don't suddenly become legal for this purpose?

if you can find it in any of the allowed sources, it's fair game. otherwise it defaults to does it have one of those descriptors in it's name?

[GrayDeath]

OK, I only have one qiuestion so far, and to make it harder to guess my build I am going to formulate it as general as possible.

Say there are certain "normal Rules" someone HAS to follow if levelling up one of the specifically legal Creatures in your post. But other sources specifically allowed (say, for example, feats whose name fit) would allow to circumvent that.
But your Creature would normally not (outside of Stupidd RAW for RAW`s sake arguments and/or Mature Stinson Cheese) qualify for those.

Can we still take them this round?




And on a general Note. I REALLY enjoy these "limited" Rounds much more than the normal ones. WHy? Because they make the contest more unique than Optimize within a vague Theme", which in turn is already better than "optimize the heck out of anything" ^^

So pelase dont feel discouraged. At least some of us really apreciate the work youa re doing. Just try to make the actual rule section a bit clearer and I guess all will be happy. :)

[jdizzlean]

i would say that that sounds like a perfectly reasonable application of the limitations and that you could in fact do that.


and thank you, it's nice to hear once in awhile :D

the hard part of course is that i can't send the limitations i have written up to anyone to "proof" ahead of time for clarity (unless in a very rare example someone had volunteered to judge ahead of time the next round.. however once i sent them those limitations to review, they'd also have to be barred from entering later if they so chose to, it's a catch 22). when i read them, it makes total sense, but that of course is just author's prerogative. and i realize this is the internet, but i'm uncomfortable (unless i'm attacking someone) in "talking down" to people by directly dumbing content down.

oh well, live and learn.

[Lionheart]

OK, I've been really struggling to pull together a build, and I don't think I'll be able to work it out well enough to do justice to my concept.

With that in mind, I'll withdraw from entering and offer my services as judge again, if people are happy for me to do so?

[remetagross]

We would certainly be :smallsmile:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Believe it or not, it's lack of Stormwrack that's really cramping my style. Means I have to drop my most promising premise in favor of something less original.

[Thurbane]

Believe it or not, it's lack of Stormwrack that's really cramping my style. Means I have to drop my most promising premise in favor of something less original.

If I understand the reqs correctly, books normally allowed in the comp aren't banned as such this round. So long as any feat, class, creature etc. meets the other reqs of the round, you can use them.

Unless I'm mistaken.

[jdizzlean]

you're not mistaken

[Lionheart]

you're not mistaken

OK, but only classes/feats etc. from Stormwrack (for example) that include one of the listed words right? Just need to clarify!

[NontheistCleric]

Just another thing I'd like to clarify:



Only PrC’s, Classes, Races, Feats, and Books (or other sources) that have the words “Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie) in the title/sub title/description are allowed
Races must contain one of the above in name, type, or subtype
-If a creature is clearly one of the above, such as a cobra, but doesn’t explicitly state “snake” in its name/type/subtype, this is obviously still allowed as a racial option (because it would simply be an animal or other type)
Draconomicon is allowed
Dungeons and Dragons on the cover does not qualify a source
CAN use PHB 1&2, Monster Manuals 1-5, and DMG 1 & 2
Only Draconic or General Feats allowed
Unless those feats are from the PHB 1-2, MM 1-5, or DMG 1-2


The last point states that only Draconic and General feats are allowed, but unlike the Draconomicon, PHB, MMs and DMGs, the wording for those feats is not explicit that there is an allowance for these feats that in general supersedes the limitations of the first point (except if they belong to any of the aforementioned books), nor is there the 'common sense' caveat of the second point.

So, then, would, for example, Draconic Arcane Grace (a Draconic feat from Races of the Dragon without Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc in the title, subtitle or description) be considered a legal feat to take?

Also, currently, 'Wrym' is legal while 'Wyrm' (the correct spelling) is not.

In addition, I have to say that while I don't necessarily agree with the tone of some who have suggested that rather than linking to in-thread clarifications in the second post, the limitations in the OP should instead be updated, I do agree that this is indeed what should be done. It's just clearer for everyone involved and saves a lot of time that otherwise would be spent sifting through and parsing clarifications.

[jdizzlean]

OK, but only classes/feats etc. from Stormwrack (for example) that include one of the listed words right? Just need to clarify!

yes


Just another thing I'd like to clarify:



The last point states that only Draconic and General feats are allowed, but unlike the Draconomicon, PHB, MMs and DMGs, the wording for those feats is not explicit that there is an allowance for these feats that in general supersedes the limitations of the first point (except if they belong to any of the aforementioned books), nor is there the 'common sense' caveat of the second point.

So, then, would, for example, Draconic Arcane Grace (a Draconic feat from Races of the Dragon without Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc in the title, subtitle or description) be considered a legal feat to take?

Also, currently, 'Wrym' is legal while 'Wyrm' (the correct spelling) is not.

In addition, I have to say that while I don't necessarily agree with the tone of some who have suggested that rather than linking to in-thread clarifications in the second post, the limitations in the OP should instead be updated, I do agree that this is indeed what should be done. It's just clearer for everyone involved and saves a lot of time that otherwise would be spent sifting through and parsing clarifications.

Draconic arcane grace both contains "draconic" in the title, and comes from a source that is legal by way of having Dragon in it's title.



-If a creature is clearly one of the above, such as a cobra, but doesn’t explicitly state “snake” in its name/type/subtype, this is obviously still allowed as a racial option (because it would simply be an animal or other type)

Wrym, Wyrm, Worm (as it relates to reptiles/dragons), and anything else that might come up from a thesaurus are all ok, posting an exhaustive list of all words seems counterproductive, hence the quote from the rules above.

[NontheistCleric]

Draconic arcane grace both contains "draconic" in the title, and comes from a source that is legal by way of having Dragon in it's title.

You see, however, feats are one of the items mentioned in the first point as only being allowed if they have the listed words in their name. So the way I read it was that first the book is checked for meeting the criteria, but then every one of those sub-categories (feats, classes, etc.) is also checked. After all, 'Only [feats containing one of the listed words] are allowed' automatically disallows all other feats and if the PHB is allowed but Leadership is disallowed, then the PHB's allowance does not supersede Leadership's disallowance, does it?

What you are saying now is that book allowance now supersedes individual feat allowance; so even if a feat doesn't have those words in it, if its book is allowed then it is allowed. If that's the case, does that then apply to any of the categories you listed (excluding race since race has a separate provision for it)?

Also, 'draconic' now inherently counts as including 'dragon' even when it didn't in the OP (otherwise there would be no need to explicitly allow Draconomicon)?


Wrym, Wyrm, Worm (as it relates to reptiles/dragons), and anything else that might come up from a thesaurus are all ok, posting an exhaustive list of all words seems counterproductive, hence the quote from the rules above.

My point was that Wrym is not a correct spelling and doesn't actually mean anything.

[jdizzlean]

it shouldn't be this hard.

i'm not "now saying it", it's been this way from the start. everything is legal if pulled from the PHB1/2, MM1-5, or DMG 1/2 irregardless of whether it has a qualifying descriptor or not. Beyond that, if the book has a qualifier in it's title, everything from that book is legal. Beyond that, specific things must have a qualifier in their titles/types to qualify. Beyond that, everything else is still illegal per a normal round, like leadership.

and i only explicitly included the draconomicon because otherwise i knew it would be brought up, just like i only explicitly included that d&d on the cover doesn't qualify, because that is some bs that I would attempt to pull as it contains dragon..

[3SecondCultist]

I am definitely in this round! I have a fun build that promises to get out of hand in all of the best ways. :smallamused:

[MisterKaws]

I had an idea (more of a meme build but ehh), then realized it needs a "thing" that has no dragons anywhere near it.

Shame.

[GrayDeath]

Well, my whacky little Idea is going well.

Even if its riding on a strange Rulkes interpretation, but given this rounds thematic ...well, Theme, that should still work out. ;)

[jdizzlean]

how's everyone doing? 1 week left, 1 build in the box...

I'll be on staycation starting wed this week for 10 days, but should still be able to find time to respond to/post things.

[GrayDeath]

Well, except for formatting and finishing touches, my entry is done.

Barring TOO good weather I should have it in tomorrow.

Hows everyone else doing?

[jdizzlean]

i guess we'll let this go till i have at least three entries..

[Thurbane]

I have to be honest...the round reqs kind of killed the idea I'd had ever since I first requested a Cold Blood round, so I most likely won't be competing.

I'm hoping next round might have more thematic, and less rules intensive, reqs: the last few have been quite restrictive, at least IMHO.

[NontheistCleric]

i guess we'll let this go till i have at least three entries..

Any chance of an official extension? A week might be stretching it, but maybe two or three days?


I have to be honest...the round reqs kind of killed the idea I'd had ever since I first requested a Cold Blood round, so I most likely won't be competing.

I'm hoping next round might have more thematic, and less rules intensive, reqs: the last few have been quite restrictive, at least IMHO.

There was a trend towards mostly thematic rounds for quite a long time before that, though, so in a sense it is just balancing out a bit.

[Falontani]

Just making sure, you did get mine in?

[jdizzlean]

Just making sure, you did get mine in?

yes


Any chance of an official extension? A week might be stretching it, but maybe two or three days?



how about til wednesday? then I'll just post whats in

[GrayDeath]

Sorry, got unexpectedly swamped.

My build is still mechanically done, but not put into table and formatted.

I THINK I should be able to finish it tonight and tomorrow.

[NontheistCleric]

I don't suppose another day's extension might be possible? Sorry to keep asking, but since it seems like there aren't many entries anyway...

[jdizzlean]

afaik you and gray are the only ones building. so have another day, or two, or three....

if you think you really can't get it done in a reasonable amount of time, say so and i'll stop holding the gate open.

[NontheistCleric]

afaik you and gray are the only ones building. so have another day, or two, or three....

if you think you really can't get it done in a reasonable amount of time, say so and i'll stop holding the gate open.

Well, what would really work best for me is having a whole extra week like I mentioned earlier, but since I didn't know the exact number of people building I didn't want to hold it up too long, so I didn't ask for the entire week.

Now I know, so I can say I'll definitely have something ready by Saturday, if not before.

[GrayDeath]

Well, I ahve absolutely NOTHING planned on the upcoming weekend, but a lot of work till then.
So I for one would really appreciate an extension unti say Sunday.

Maybe well also get some more entries this way? Thurbane for example? :)

[NontheistCleric]

Well, I ahve absolutely NOTHING planned on the upcoming weekend, but a lot of work till then.
So I for one would really appreciate an extension unti say Sunday.

Maybe well also get some more entries this way? Thurbane for example? :)

Yes! With four entries, we could have a first place, second place, third place and an honorable mention!

[MisterKaws]

I have to be honest...the round reqs kind of killed the idea I'd had ever since I first requested a Cold Blood round, so I most likely won't be competing.

I'm hoping next round might have more thematic, and less rules intensive, reqs: the last few have been quite restrictive, at least IMHO.

Yeah, that was the same problem I had. I had a plan to do something that was somewhat a joke build, but would be quite fun for an encounter nonetheless. Problem was: it required a class that didn't have any "scaly creatures" in a 50-foot radius around it.

Then the whole thing just fell apart and now I'm on exams week.

[NontheistCleric]

Saturday

Actually, revise this to Sunday. Sorry, I ended up spending the evening actually playing D&D.

[jdizzlean]

gonna let this go for about 9 more hours, then call it off. that may result in an automatic winner, but this has dragged on for over a month w/ 1 official entry in. in the event of this occurring, the next round will be posted shortly after reveal.

[GrayDeath]

Well, mine is in too.

Even if it got later, the weather was fantastic over here.....^^

[NontheistCleric]

Entry submitted! That should make three at least!

[jdizzlean]

Lord Rust:

1. I see what you did there, and I like it.



Lord Rust

Lawful Evil Half Red Dragon Mature Adult Steel Dragon Dragonfire Adept 7








Attributes: Array Race Level/HD Total (+/-)
Strength 12 +20 32 (+11)
Dexterity 13 +0 +1 14 (+2)
Constitution 15 +8 +3 26 (+8)
Intelligence 8 +10 18 (+4)
Wisdom 10 +8 18 (+4)
Charisma 12 +8 20 (+5)





His Skills and Feats at CR 20

Feats (7 HD, ergo 10 Feats: Improved Initiative, Awaken Spell Resistance, Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, Quicken Breath, Shape Breath, Increased Maneuverability (2 times, ergo good), Wingover, Power Attack.



Skills: Attr (+) Ranks Final

Appraise Int (+4) 5 9
Bluff Cha (+5) 15 20
Climb Str (+11) 4 15
Concentration Con (+8) 22 30
Craft (Gems) Int (+4) 6 10
Diplomacy Cha (+5) 25 30
Disguise Cha (+5) 10 15
Intimidate Cha (+5) 25 30
Jump Str (+11) 4 15
Fly Dex (+2) 15 17
Knowledge (Arcane) Int (+4) 16 20
Knowledge (local) Int (+4) 16 20
Knowledge (nature) Int (+4) 16 20
Knowledge (Religion) Int (+4) 11 15
Knowledge (The Planes) Int (+4) 16 20
Listen Wis (+4) 16 20
Search Int (+4) 11 15
Spot Wis (+4) 16 20
Sense Motive Wis (+4) 16 20
Speak language Int (+4) 6 10
Spellcraft Int (+4) 16 20
Use magic Device Cha (+5) 20 25

306 ranks

Languages: Draconic, Common, Undercommon, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Ignan, Terran, Giant, Dwarven, Orc.

Given his amo8unt of SOcial Power and Knowöedge to back it mup with, there is very little of mundane or Arcane origin that could confóund him. For Details see Playing Tips!





At CR 20 he has:

Total Attack Bonuses with natural Attacks:
Claws and Bite (Primary): +36, Damage 2d8+11 Bite, 2d6+6 CLaws, +31 Tail and Wings (Secondary) with 1d8+6 and 1d6+6 repsectively).



HP: 426


Saves: +26/+12/+24


AC: 33

SR: 30

Flight 200ft (Good)







Spells: As Sorcerer Level 13, but may also take Cleric Spells if so chosen. (Spells/Day: +1 up to L5).

Level 1: Grease, True Strike, Shield, Charm person, Protection From Good

Level 2: Web, Touch of Idiocy, Hideous laughter, Hold person, Silence

Level 3: Dispel magic, Fireball, Displacement, Animate Dead

Level 4: Death Ward, Scrying, Charm Monster,Bestow Curse

Level 5: Plane Shift, Lesser Planar Binding, Baleful Polimorph

Level 6: Planar Ally, Desintegrate


Total breath Weapons:

At Will: 4d6 small Cone or Line, may Slow or sicken, Fire Damage

every 1d4-1 Turns: 6D8 Acid 60ft line or Gas 30fr Cone. May be shaped as wished, and Clings for 1 turn /full) and a second Turn (half)

1/Day: 6d8 Damage Cone of Fire.

All are enlargable/Changable and wuite long lasting via Metabreath Feats.

In Addition from Dragonfire Adept he has the See the Unseen, Walk Unseen and Beguiling Influence Invocations.








Lord Rust, as he started calling himself almost half a century ago, is a rather unique example of Dragonkind. One of the almost unheard of Half Red Steel Dragons (deregatorily called Rust Dragons by both "pure" ancestors).

Instead of fighting his moniker, he made it his, both in name and modus operandi.
Yet even his normal Steel Dragon Prowess was enough for him, he decided to also follow his Red heritage, by becoming a Dragonfire Adept, reaching unheard of mastery over his breath weapons for a rather young Dragon.

Lord Rust is subtelty incarnate. Almost never seen in his Dragon form, yet if he is seen often seemingly fighting the goals his mortal guise" is pursuing.

using the Dichotomy of his Dragonforms unsubtle Approach of extremely potent and adaptable Breathw eapons and direct speedy action with his normal, reclusive demeanor to confuse anyone enough that not even the idea they could be the sáme person has ever come up (or if it has, the being having the idea did not survive^^).


In this case, he has been the Lord of the local (rather productive but not great qualitywise) Iron mines in a rather wide area, lording over a multitude of villages to plunder once his Red urges come through, and a lot of Gold finding its way into his very much not hoardlike Coffers.

Indeed, most Player Characerters will likely work for him without ever realizing who he was....and thats just how he likes it, as direct confrontation for other reasons than to relive stress are so....vulgar....






Lord Rust is, at his centre, a classic Tyrant.

He manipulates anyone he can with his insane amounts of social Fu, supported where necessary by his Magic, to act in a way it serves his interests.

Most Enemies will likely not even realize that they are fighting him at all.

Still, if all subtlety gffails, he ahs average Spellcasting and great Stats tha enable him to fight his enemies directly.


Although his main Shtick in a battle is his array of very adaptable Breath weapons and excellent Flight, that make him a regular destroyer of Armies.

He lacks the encessary Removal Abilities to take out singularly powerful targets (bar Desintegration following a Bestow Curse to lower their resistance). Indeed he vastly prefers to let such exemplars of power work FOR him instead of fighting them.

PS: I know that the build actually gets weaker through the Dragonfire Adept Levels. But I could not resist giving the half Dragon Dragon a third Dragon , so sue me ^^





SRD
Draconomicon
Dragon magic

[jdizzlean]

Vaarkvaal

2. Try saying that 3 times fast.

Vaakvaal the Lawful Evil Advanced Half Green Hidecarved Dragon Adult Kython Monk Grunt



Stat

Base (Large Half Dragon Kython)

Level Ups

Final



Strength

(12) 34


34



Dexterity

(14) 16

12, 16, 24, 28

20



Constitution

(13) 25

20

26



Intelligence

(8) 10


10



Wisdom

(10) 16


16



Charisma

(15) 17


17









CR

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


8

Advanced Adult Kython (18 HD)

+13

+6

+6

+11


Multiattack(B), Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Focus Claw(B)

Kython Traits, Kython Weaponry: Extra Armor, Extra Armor, Bone Blade, Bone Blade, Poison



10

Half Green Dragon

+13

+6

+6

+11

+21 Hide, +21 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1

Iron Will, Awaken Spell Resistance, Improved Natural Attack Bite, Awaken Frightful Presence, Toughness, Endure Blows, Improved Flight

Wings (120 fly speed), +1 HD size, +4 nat armor, dragon type, Breath Weapon, Immunities, +8 str, +2 con, int, wis, Increased Skills



11

Monk (19 HD)

+13

+8

+8

+13

+22 Hide, +22 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +2

Improved Grapple(B)

Decisive Strike, Unarmed Strike, Unarmored AC



12

Monk (20 HD)

+14

+9

+9

+14

+23 Hide, +23 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +4

Combat Reflexes(B)

Evasion



13

Hidecarved Dragon (21 HD)

+15

+11

+11

+16

+24 Hide, +24 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +6

Robilar’s Gambit

Increased Spell Resistance



14

Hidecarved Dragon (22 HD)

+16

+12

+12

+17

+25 Hide, +25 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +8

Suppress Weakness(B)

Poison Resistance



15

Hidecarved Dragon (23 HD)

+17

+12

+12

+17

+26 Hide, +26 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +10


Sonic Resistance 10



16

Hidecarved Dragon (24 HD)

+18

+13

+13

+18

+27 Hide, +27 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +12

Fast Healing

Still Mind, +2 Natural Armor



17

Hidecarved Dragon (25 HD)

+19

+13

+13

+18

+28 Hide, +28 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +14


Increased Damage Reduction



18

Hidecarved Dragon (26 HD)

+20

+14

+14

+19

+29 Hide, +29 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +16


Fire Immunity, Sonic Resistance 20



19

Hidecarved Dragon (27 HD)

+21

+14

+14

+19

+30 Hide, +30 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +18

Overcome Weakness(B), Improved Natural Attack: Boneblade

Death Ward



20

Hidecarved Dragon (28 HD)

+22

+15

+15

+20

+31 Hide, +31 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +5, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +1, Listen +20


Natural Armor +4






Half Green Dragon Advanced Adult Kython
Size/Type: Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 18d10+129 (241 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Fly 120 (Good)
Armor Class: 35 (+22 nat, -1 size, +4 dex), touch 13, flat-footed 31
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+29
Attack: Bite +24 (6d6+12 plus Poison)
Full Attack: Bite +24 (6d6+12 plus Poison), 2 Boneblades +23 (2d8+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Kython Weaponry, Poison, Frightful Presence, Breath Weapon
Special Qualities: Kython Traits, 18 Spell Resistance, DR 2/-, Immunities
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +16
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 18, Con 25, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 17
Skills: +21 Hide, +25 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +9, Tumble +10, Escape Artist +5
Feats: Multiattack(B), Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Focus Claw(B), Iron Will, Awaken Spell Resistance, Improved Natural Attack Bite, Awaken Frightful Presence, Toughness, Endure Blows, Improved Flight

Kython Traits: All kythons are eyeless but have blindsight to a range of 60 feet. They are all immune to acid and cold and possess fire resistance 20 and electricity resistance 20.

Kython Weaponry (Ex): The kythons grow their weapons and devices from eggs similar to those that spawn their young. When a kython lays an egg, it can choose whether the egg will hatch into a broodling or an organic weapon. A kython using any of these weapons substitutes the weapon’s attack for one of its claw attacks (in the case of a ranged weapon, using the kython’s Dexterity bonus rather than its Strength bonus). In all other ways, these weapons are considered natural weapons.

2x Boneblade: This Medium-size slashing melee weapon is considered masterwork (adds +1 to attack roll) and deals 1d10 points of damage. It is bone-white with thin red and blue veins covering its sides. (2d8 for large sized)

2x Extra Armor: Extra chitinous plates are fitted to the kython’s body, adding +2 to its existing natural armor bonus.

Corrupting Presence (Ex): Waves of sickness emanate from Vaakvaal, mirroring the corruption in its heart. Whenever Vaakvaal attacks, charges, or flies overhead, creatures within range (45 ft) that have fewer HD than Vaakvaal become sickened for 2d6 rounds. Creatures with 4 or fewer Hit Dice instead become nauseated for 2d6 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 22) negates this effect and renders the creature immune to Vaakvaal’s corruption presence for 24 hours. Dragons ignore the corrupting presence of other dragons. This variant presence is most common among black dragons, though any evil dragon can have it. (THIS REPLACES MY FRIGHTFUL PRESENCE)

Poison (Ex): Bite, Fort DC 26; Initial and secondary damage 1d8 strength.

Immunities: As a half dragon Vaakvaal is immune to Paralysis and magical sleep. Vaakvaal is also immune to acid and cold.

Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day Vaakvaal may exhale a 30-foot cone of corrosive (acid) gas which deals 6d8 points of acid damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 26) reduces damage by half.




Half Green Hidecarved Dragon Advanced Adult Kython Monk
Size/Type: Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 21d10+2d8+187 (327 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Fly 120 (Good)
Armor Class: 38 (+22 nat, -1 size, +4 dex, +3 wis), touch 16, flat-footed 31
Base Attack/Grapple: +17/+37
Attack: Bite +28 (6d6+12 plus Poison)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+12), 2 Boneblades +27 (2d8+6), Bite +26 (6d6+6 plus Poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Kython Weaponry, Poison, Frightful Presence, Breath Weapon, Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike
Special Qualities: Kython Traits, 21 Spell Resistance, DR 2/-, Immunities, Unarmored Defense, Evasion, Increased Spell Resistance, Poison Resistance, 10 Sonic Resistance
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +16, Will +20
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 18, Con 26, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 17
Skills: +26 Hide, +30 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +9, Tumble +10, Escape Artist +5, Listen +13
Feats: Multiattack(B), Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Focus Claw(B), Iron Will, Awaken Spell Resistance, Improved Natural Attack Bite, Awaken Frightful Presence, Toughness, Endure Blows, Improved Flight, Improved Grapple(B), Combat Reflexes(B), Robilar’s Gambit, Suppress Weakness(B)

Kython Traits: All kythons are eyeless but have blindsight to a range of 60 feet. They are all immune to acid and cold and possess fire resistance 20 and electricity resistance 20.

Kython Weaponry (Ex): The kythons grow their weapons and devices from eggs similar to those that spawn their young. When a kython lays an egg, it can choose whether the egg will hatch into a broodling or an organic weapon. A kython using any of these weapons substitutes the weapon’s attack for one of its claw attacks (in the case of a ranged weapon, using the kython’s Dexterity bonus rather than its Strength bonus). In all other ways, these weapons are considered natural weapons.

2x Boneblade: This Medium-size slashing melee weapon is considered masterwork (adds +1 to attack roll) and deals 1d10 points of damage. It is bone-white with thin red and blue veins covering its sides. (2d8 for large sized)

2x Extra Armor: Extra chitinous plates are fitted to the kython’s body, adding +2 to its existing natural armor bonus.

Corrupting Presence (Ex): Waves of sickness emanate from Vaakvaal, mirroring the corruption in its heart. Whenever Vaakvaal attacks, charges, or flies overhead, creatures within range (45 ft) that have fewer HD than Vaakvaal become sickened for 2d6 rounds. Creatures with 4 or fewer Hit Dice instead become nauseated for 2d6 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 24) negates this effect and renders the creature immune to Vaakvaal’s corruption presence for 24 hours. Dragons ignore the corrupting presence of other dragons. This variant presence is most common among black dragons, though any evil dragon can have it. (THIS REPLACES MY FRIGHTFUL PRESENCE)

Poison (Ex): Bite, Fort DC 29; Initial and secondary damage 1d8 strength.

Immunities: As a half dragon Vaakvaal is immune to Paralysis and magical sleep. Vaakvaal is also immune to acid, cold, and Fire.

Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day Vaakvaal may exhale a 30-foot cone of corrosive (acid) gas which deals 6d8 points of acid damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 29) reduces damage by half.

Poison Resistance (Ex): At 2nd level, a hidecarved dragon gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against poison.

Robilar’s Gambit (Ex): At the start of your action, you can adopt a fighting stance that exposes you to harm but allows you to take advantage of your opponents' exposed defenses as they reach in to attack you. Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.



Half Green Hidecarved Dragon Advanced Adult Kython Monk
Size/Type: Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 26d10+2d8+227 (397 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), Fly 120 (Good)
Armor Class: 43 (+26 nat, -1 size, +5 dex, +3 wis), touch 17, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+42
Attack: Bite +33 (6d6+12 plus Poison)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +33/+28/+23/+18 (1d8+12), 2 Boneblades +32 (3d8+6), Bite +31 (6d6+6 plus Poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Kython Weaponry, Poison, Frightful Presence, Breath Weapon, Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike
Special Qualities: Kython Traits, 26 Spell Resistance, DR 7/-, Immunities, Unarmored Defense, Evasion, Increased Spell Resistance, Poison Resistance, 20 Sonic Resistance, Still Mind, Death Ward, Increased Damage Reduction, Fast Healing 3
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +20, Will +23
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 17
Skills: +32 Hide, +36 Move Silently, Spellcraft +10, Psicraft +10, Martial Lore +10, Balance +10, Tumble +11, Escape Artist +6, Listen +23
Feats: Multiattack(B), Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Focus Claw(B), Iron Will, Awaken Spell Resistance, Improved Natural Attack Bite, Awaken Frightful Presence, Toughness, Endure Blows, Improved Flight, Improved Grapple(B), Combat Reflexes(B), Robilar’s Gambit, Suppress Weakness(B), Fast Healing, Overcome Weakness(B), Improved Natural Attack: Boneblade

Kython Traits: All kythons are eyeless but have blindsight to a range of 60 feet. They are all immune to acid and cold and possess fire resistance 20 and electricity resistance 20.

Kython Weaponry (Ex): The kythons grow their weapons and devices from eggs similar to those that spawn their young. When a kython lays an egg, it can choose whether the egg will hatch into a broodling or an organic weapon. A kython using any of these weapons substitutes the weapon’s attack for one of its claw attacks (in the case of a ranged weapon, using the kython’s Dexterity bonus rather than its Strength bonus). In all other ways, these weapons are considered natural weapons.

2x Boneblade: This Medium-size slashing melee weapon is considered masterwork (adds +1 to attack roll) and deals 1d10 points of damage. It is bone-white with thin red and blue veins covering its sides. (2d8 for large sized)

2x Extra Armor: Extra chitinous plates are fitted to the kython’s body, adding +2 to its existing natural armor bonus.

Corrupting Presence (Ex): Waves of sickness emanate from Vaakvaal, mirroring the corruption in its heart. Whenever Vaakvaal attacks, charges, or flies overhead, creatures within range (45 ft) that have fewer HD than Vaakvaal become sickened for 2d6 rounds. Creatures with 4 or fewer Hit Dice instead become nauseated for 2d6 rounds. A successful Fortitude save (DC 27) negates this effect and renders the creature immune to Vaakvaal’s corruption presence for 24 hours. Dragons ignore the corrupting presence of other dragons. This variant presence is most common among black dragons, though any evil dragon can have it. (THIS REPLACES MY FRIGHTFUL PRESENCE)

Poison (Ex): Bite, Fort DC 32; Initial and secondary damage 1d8 strength.

Immunities: As a half dragon Vaakvaal is immune to Paralysis and magical sleep. Vaakvaal is also immune to acid and cold.

Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day Vaakvaal may exhale a 30-foot cone of corrosive (acid) gas which deals 6d8 points of acid damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 32) reduces damage by half.
Poison Resistance (Ex): At 2nd level, a hidecarved dragon gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against poison.

Robilar’s Gambit (Ex): At the start of your action, you can adopt a fighting stance that exposes you to harm but allows you to take advantage of your opponents' exposed defenses as they reach in to attack you. Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.

Death Ward 1/day CL 8



Vaakvaal has always been a half green dragon. In fact his whole tribe is. An ancient Green Dragon by the name of Vaak has taken a liking to Vaakvaal’s kind. Vaak does experiments on Vaakvaal’s people. Corrupts them, turns them into half dragons. Gives us power. Vaakvaal is but one of many of my people. Vaakvaal is not extraordinary. Vaakvaal is just a grunt. Mortals beware, we are coming. Vaakvaal’s Slaughterking is vastly more powerful than Vaakvaal could ever hope to be.

Vaakvaal is just a grunt in a larger army at the beginning of an epic campaign. If you use him at his base form of CR 10 he is extremely powerful for the CR, but foretell horrible powerful enemies on the horizon.
If you are to use Vaakvaal with his whole story element with him being CR 10, you should have the following:
Half Green Dragon Kython Broodling with 5 HD (CR 4 babies) 48 hours to hatch hundreds to thousands of them (depending on how devastating you want this to be)
Half Green Dragon Kython Juveniles with 9 HD (CR 6) 1 week-2 weeks to grow into them
Half Green Dragon Kython Adult with 18 HD (CR 10) 2 weeks-1 month to grow up
10% of them will advance as Vaakvaal did taking only 3 months (taking class levels for good CR ratio)
10% of them will advance as Fighters/Rangers and use Acid Spitters (normally does 3d6 acid in 10-50 ft, but with imp nat attack and far shot does 4d6 acid in 15-75 ft)
20% should stagnate and continue being just adults (gain the final 2 RHD)
30% should become 24 HD Half Green Dragon Kython Impalers (CR 12) 1-2 months
29% should become 27 HD Half Green Dragon Kython Slaymasters (CR 16) 2-3 months
1% should eventually become a 34 HD Half Green Dragon Kython Slaughterking (CR 19) 3-5 months

1 in 1,000 Kythons should be Gestalted as a sorcerer of their RHD (so 18 RHD = 18 sorcerer levels) otherwise magic support comes in the form of Juvenile-Adult Green dragons most of which will have Child of Eberron giving them full access to druidic magic.
After about 6 months of this happening an alliance between Kython and Yuan-Ti should be forged, granting the Kython some major magic support, and the Yuan-Ti will be given the unneeded extra humanoids (not dwarves or elves) to create their Tainted Ones and Broodguard.

As the Kython Influence grows more and more area of the world should be turning into this swampland that the Kython prefer. The water should slowly become poisoned (Arsenic DC 13 fort ingested poison, primary 1 con, secondary 1d8 con)

Finally it should be noted that Boneblades are considered masterwork and thus can be enchanted, and that Kythons of Juvenile age and greater have at least standard treasure, so all boneblades can and should be enchanted given enough time and resources.



Vaakvaal is a grunt, and shouldn’t be too exciting due to this. He a simple melee bruiser with a good flight routine, amazing defense, and good attacks. His one thing he uses to shine is using Robilar’s Gambit in an effort to get more bite attacks off, increasing the str damage he does to others, and greatly increasing the damage output he is capable of. Due to this I think his Prime as a boss monster would be CR 13. He gains access to his trick, while not being at the point that a single spellcaster will absolutely stomp him. He has obvious weaknesses, and obvious strengths. A good Full Attack should be scary. As a DM I would allow him to use his Decisive Strike with his bite attack, but I do not think that it is RAW to do so, so I have not included it in stat blocks.


Adult Kython: Book of Vile Darkness
Improved Natural Attack, Half Dragon: MM
Awaken Spell Resistance, Awaken Frightful Presence, Hidecarved Dragon, Endure Blows, Fast Healing: Draconimonicon
Robilar’s Gambit, Decisive Strike: PHB2
Improved Flight: RoW
Everything else from PHB

[jdizzlean]

Destroyer

3. I see what you did there, and I don't like it.
3b. so 7 years of bad luck?


Destroyer-of-Mirrors


Chaotic Evil Fetch Assassin 10




Ability
Array
Racial
Voidmind
12 HD
16 HD
20 HD
Prodigy of Charisma
Final


Str
10
+6
+4
-
-
-
-
20


Dex
12
-2
+2
-
-
-
-
10


Con
14
+2
+4
-
-
-
-
20


Int
15
+4
+2
+1
-
-
-
22


Wis
8
+2
-
-
-
-
-
10


Cha
13
+2
-2
-
+1
+1
+2
17






CR
Advancement
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skill Ranks
Feats
Features


8
Outsider (10 HD)
+10
+7
+7
+7
Skills at 13 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (the planes), Intimidate, Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive, Climb, Jump

Skills at 6.5 ranks: Disguise, Bluff
Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Flyby Attack
Mirror Portals, Energy Drain, Create Spawn, Invisibility, Arcane Adept: Alter Self 2/day, +1 DC to arcane spells


9
Voidmind
+10
+7
+7
+7
Skills at 13 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (the planes), Intimidate, Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive, Climb, Jump

Skills at 6.5 ranks: Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy
-
Cone of Slime, Constrict, Improved Grab, Sentient Tentacle, Immunities, Mind Flayer Host


10
Outsider (12 HD)
+12
+8
+8
+8
Skills at 15 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (the planes), Intimidate, Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive, Climb, Jump

Skills at 7 ranks: Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD

Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered, Clarity of Vision
Improved Trip
-


11
Assassin
+12
+8
+10
+8
Skills at 16 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 9 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
-
Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, spells


12
Assassin
+13
+8
+11
+8
Skills at 17 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 11 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
-
+1 save against poison, uncanny dodge


13
Assassin
+14
+9
+11
+9
Skills at 18 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 13 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
Ability Focus (Death Attack)
Sneak attack +2d6


14
Assassin
+15
+9
+12
+9
Skills at 19 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 15 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
-
+2 save against poison


15
Assassin
+15
+9
+12
+9
Skills at 20 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 17 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
-
Improved uncanny dodge, sneak attack +3d6


16
Assassin
+16
+10
+13
+10
Skills at 21 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 19 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
Versatile Spellcaster
+3 save against poison


17
Assassin
+17
+10
+13
+10
Skills at 22 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 21 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
-
Sneak attack +4d6


18
Assassin
+18
+10
+14
+10
Skills at 23 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 23 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD
-
+4 save against poison, hide in plain sight


19
Assassin
+18
+11
+14
+11
Skills at 24 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 24 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD

Skills at 1 rank: Balance

Skill Tricks: Social Recovery
Improved Initiative
Sneak attack +5d6


20
Assassin
+19
+11
+15
+11
Skills at 25 ranks: Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate, Spot

Skills at 25 ranks: Bluff, Diplomacy, UMD

Skills at 4 ranks: Balance
-
+5 save against poison



Spells Known

Level 1: Disguise Self, Ghost Sound, Obscuring Mist, True Strike

Level 2: Alter Self, Undetectable Alignment, Spider Climb, Fox's Cunning

Level 3: Misdirection, Nondetection, Deeper Darkness, Magic Circle Against Good

Level 4: Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Glibness

It appears empty, the stone table before me.

To look at them, one would think my two fellows mad, tentacles writhing in mid-air, just above the smooth rock, as they stare intently into thin air.

Well, no, not really. As any idiot knows, we live in a world of magic and thus the logical conclusion is that there is an invisible creature lying there. This would be supported by the fact that with every delicate scooping motion of the tentacles, another sliver of brain appears on their ends and is shoveled into my companions’ mouths.

Malinordell spotted the creature yesterday with his mindsight. His strange brand of telepathy told him that it was one of those creatures that dwells on the Outer Planes. Surprising that the thing should have chosen our thralls’ village as a destination on an interplanar trek, but then, planar travel is notoriously unreliable in terms of positioning, one of the reasons I have only ever used my plane shift on myself twice.

Though perhaps it was my fault for being so reckless. No doubt most others wishing to travel to the Plane of Elemental Fire have sense enough to avail themselves of more… precise transportation.

Curiously enough, when we arrived on the surface to investigate, we found that the creature had gone on a rampage and smashed every piece of glass in the place. It killed the woman whose house it appeared in, which might have lent some weight to a fiendish hypothesis as to its nature, but Abstersine tells me she was quite despicable even before becoming his mind-slave, so we had to reserve judgement on that point, as the being was even then totally invisible. Only Malinordell could detect it, his oversensitive psychic senses being what they are.

We found it in of the village square. Strewn with flecks of blood and shattered glass, a sobbing sound came from the centre of the space.

I reached out with my mind, and there I saw madness.

It was a fiend! First, the raw screaming insanity of the Abyss surfaced, crashing through the mindscape and permeating every inch of the wretch’s soul. This is what it had tried to escape from, again and again, yet always pulled back by its own nature, the Material being inimical to its very flesh.

Isn’t it strange how the natives of the Outer Planes tend to be most dissatisfied with their places of origin? After all, all scholars of the planes know what happened to the first angels…

Then came a kind of grasping, desperate lunacy, one tied infinitely more tightly to this tortured soul’s core. Fueled by hundreds, thousands of escapes into sanity, only to be pulled back into the roiling mass of chaos. This was not the indiscriminate wail of disorder glimpsed before, but a logic malformed in its conception, the convoluted pathways of hate and blame without a target.

Now I saw. The mirrors were how it freed itself from the Abyss, by some unique magic, and so too were they the doors of its prison, that it was forever doomed to return to.

Every time, more than even my mind could count, this pattern was made manifest. No matter how many times it broke the gates, eventually it would succumb in body and be forced to withdraw once more, seeking the nearest reflection.

It was at the reflections, at the mirrors, at the still pools of water that I felt this frenzied tempest of wrath directed. With none other to condemn, this planar drifter would condemn them, and their destruction was foremost in its existence. The unreasoning outrage screamed eternally through the caverns of its mind, screeching from the fissures of the mindscape as the anguished wails that issued from the unseen mouth of their utterly insensate owner.

I stumbled back, breaking the connection.


I was and am an illithid, and my intellect is supreme, as is that of my fellows. Naturally, it did not take us long to come to the same conclusion. This fiend would be an ideal candidate for our first outing of the voidmind procedure, the psionic slime involved naturally resisting the kind of structural decay the energies of the Material inflicted on the outsider’s tissues.

Obviously, the practical applications of a perpetually-invisible agent are self-evident.

So, here we are.

There lies the fiend, psychically sedated.

I rise from my meditative position, the viscous mucus clinging to my tentacles, crackling with psionic charge.

Gulping down the last remnants of brain, Malinordell and Abstersine hurry to their positions on either side of the cranial cavity.

And as the soul of the creature lingers for a split second, about to disintegrate into planar debris and take the physicality of the outsider’s body with it, I vomit forth the psychically blazing mass into the space where the creature’s brain was.

A split second passes. We feel the mental threads connecting us to the fiend stabilize, indicating that it has survived the procedure. Abstersine, always the quickest to enthrall, seizes on the domination pathway and pours all his energy into it in an almost instinctive maneuver.

It doesn’t work.

I feel a spark of understanding in the newly-reborn wretch’s mind. For a moment, it impresses even me. The speeds at which its freshly-augmented thoughts race rival my own. In that instant, I realize that we have made a mistake, that the voidmind implantation has rendered its subject somehow immune to mental control.

Then a wave of acid bursts from midair, coalescing into sight as it leaves its progenitor’s invisible body.

It’s too close. Almost inevitably fatal. How ironic that this is an ability we have just given it.

But I am Ulzecorian, First and Greatest of the Three! Although my compatriots may perish here, no mere acid can fell me!

Thus, even as my companions are receiving a corrosive torrent to the face, I perform an utterly masterful contortion of the body, jettisoning me out of the worst of the spray so that only a light shower of acid droplets rain down on my glorious self.

Even so, the sheer pain of it sends me into systemic shock and I am knocked unconscious.


Hours later, I awake. The voidmind creature is gone, by now far out of the range of any mental tracing. It must not have wasted much time. Apart from the half-dissolved corpses of Malinordell and Abstersine, the laboratory seems largely untouched.

Well, at least we know what not to do next time. No point dwelling on past mistakes.

Time to find someone who can cast resurrection. Twice.

Destroyer-of-Mirrors wishes to experience all the delights of the Material Plane, and his new immunity to ability damage from being a Voidmind creature finally allows him to do this without being forced back into the Abyss for indeterminate amounts of time when his Constitution begins to get damaged. In case you couldn't tell, the reason he was so easily able to escape from his mind flayer masters was because there is actually a dysfunction in the Voidmind template that renders the recipient immune to the effect of the domination the masters should be able to exercise over it.

He is not necessary villainous all the time, and has no overarching goals, with one exception, the clue to which is in his name. He really wants to experience all there is to experience on the Material, so he might get into a streak of kindness once in while, in the usual fashion of benevolent invisible spirits. On the other hand, he could just as easily decide to have a few innocent people to eat if he so fancied. It's quite likely that at one point or another he might serve as an agent of a greater evil power for a time. Or, depending on his caprice, even a neutral or good power, though this is progressively less likely.

That said, he has one distinctive psychosis that takes priority over all other motivations if it comes up: Destroyer-of-Mirrors, as his name suggests, wishes to get rid of all reflective surfaces, as without any one individual to hold responsible for his numerous banishments, he has transferred the blame to reflective surfaces in general. Smashed mirrors can always be found wherever he goes, no matter what else he is doing. If he is caught up in a spree of mirror-smashing, he is likely to give his position away with elated screeching. Woe betide any mirror-makers, who are sure to die horrible, torturous deaths. Luckily for him, the population at large in the standard medieval D&D setting is unlikely to know the secrets of mirror-making, so after the makers are done away with, so too with their notes, if any.

Liquid reflective surfaces are harder, but if any cities or nations start deciding to build covered aqueducts and reservoirs even large ships, Destroyer-of-Mirrors may be working invisibly behind the scenes, trying to cover up more and more stretches of water, futile though that task may ultimately be. Expect many water sources to run dry and cause serious problems for settlements as he tries to dam them up. Lakes, rivers and seas are as much his enemy as any mirror, and the odd noble family that finds their duck pond filled in with soil may also be a victim of Destroyer-of-Mirrors.There are two distinctive points in Destroyer-of-Mirrors' progression: Before he takes levels in Assassin, and after.

Apart from this, remember that he must naturally be very wary of dismissal or banishment spells and will return bent on revenge if one is successfully used on him. He refrains from creating spawn and in fact the one thing he could be considered morally opposed to is condemning another to a similar existence as his former one.

CR 10
At this point, Mirrors is already quite a stealthy villain, and when attacking from surprise he has many devastating options like his acid and energy drain. Alter Self opens up options like flight and possibly natural weapons, although he is perfectly capable of picking up any martial weapon and has more iterative attacks than a typical fighter of this level, as well as some extra attack bonus that can be used with Combat Expertise or Power Attack.

He also has a fair number of social skills for his behind-the scenes work, which aren't terribly high but are bolstered by the effects of Prodigy. Being constantly invisible helps to keep his influence less apparent as well.

CR 20
Skills have increased and Mirrors has some useful spells, so overall he's more capable and in terms of head-on fighting ability, although Assassin hasn't increased it at the same rate a full-BAB class would, the fact that his attack bonus was already high before makes up for that in part. Sneak Attack is likely to help in combat too and Death Attack if he has the opportunity to ambush. Most of his first-level spells are less effectual so the slots may as well all be used on Versatile Spellcaster.

Clearly, this is an attempt to build something completely unrelated to reptiles or dragons in any way, while still complying with limitations.

All resources used fall under the established rule that anything from an allowed book, defined as 'PHB 1&2, Monster Manuals 1-5, and DMG 1 & 2' or 'Books (or other sources) that have the words “Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie) in the title/sub title/description', is legal to use.

As for 'Races must contain one of the above in name, type, or subtype', note that the list contains 'etc'. Despite appearances, this is not the same as the abbreviation 'etc.', which includes a full stop. 'Etc.' would not make sense anyway as the list is exhaustive with a well-defined caveat at the end, rendering any potential 'etc.' inappropriate. Therefore, it must be concluded that containing 'etc' will cause a race to be valid for usage, which is true of my chosen race: Fetch.

Player's Handbook
Dragonlance Campaign Setting (Fetch)
Dungeon Master's Guide
Dungeon Master's Guide (Arcane Adept, Prodigy)
Races of the Dragon (Versatile Spellcaster)
Monster Manual
Monster Manual III (Voidmind)

[jdizzlean]

b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-that's all folks.

[WhamBamSam]

I got too busy to get an entry in, but I was going to get clever with the source restrictions and draw from a Wyrms of the North (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030423a) web article. The build was going to be a straight Copper Dragon (maybe a Loredrake or whatever) who would load up Breathbarbs with Maximized Dispelling Breaths (possibly with other breath spells and metabreaths as well). In addition to being generally snazzy, this would be used to dispel the Mud to Rock SLA that had been used to construct those portions of his lair to potentially get intruders stuck in mud (which he could then potentially turn back into rock with his SLA before they escaped with FoM) and possibly trigger other traps as well.

[MisterKaws]

I was going to do an Arseplomancer snake with paralytic powers. Would paralyze its enemies and calmly enter their bums to explode them from inside.

I know, old joke, not that funny anymore. Oh well.

[jdizzlean]

the next round will be much less restrictive than has been the norm lately. a few of these will follow before going back to the current standard. I'll try to mix it up...

[3SecondCultist]

Yeah, I didn't end up having time to put mine together! I was planning on doing a Loredrake Shadow Dragon with the Spectral Creature template from Dragons of Faerun and the Create Spectral Spawn feat from the Wyrmshadow errata. She would have been fairly fragile, but traded off for some incredibly deadly abilities!

The plan was to combine Enlarge Breath with the natural energy drain breath of her kin, hit up a small village or two until she was full up on Spectres, and then use her ghostly army to start ambushing real monsters until she had effectively kick-started the apocalypse with infinite spawn. It was going to be the kind of build that hit its stride around CR 15, but by high enough levels PCs should have the tools to beat her.

[Thurbane]

My would-be entry stub, that I just could not be bothered re-working to fit round reqs:



Szilsass


Medium Outsider (native, reptilian)

Divine Minion (of Sebek) Monster of Legend Ophidian Cleric 6/Swordsage 1/Contemplative 9




CR
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


4
Monstrous Humanoid Outsider 3
+3
+1
+3
+3
Concentration 3, Knowledge (nature) 3, Listen 6, Spot 6
Improved InitiativeB, Lion's Pounce, MultiattackB, Natural Spell
Darkvision 60 ft, enhanced attributes, fast wildshape, fear immunity, reflective hide, serpentine curse, spells


5
Cleric 1
+x
+x
+x
+x
Concentration 3, Knowledge (religion)
Animal DevotionB
Domains (animal, scalykind), rebuke undead


6
Cleric 2
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
-


7
Cleric 3
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Knowledge Devotion
-


8
Cleric 4
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
-


9
Cleric 5
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
-


10
Cleric 6
+7
+6
+5
+8
Skills
Extend Spell
-


11
Swordsage 1
+7
+6
+7
+10
Knowledge (religion) 13
-
Quick to act +1, discipline focus (weapon focus), maneuvers, stances


12
Contemplative 1
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
Bonus domain (animal), divine health


13
Contemplative 2
+x
+x
+x
+x
Concentration 3, Knowledge (nature) 15, Listen 6, Spot 6
Dragon Wild Shape
Slippery mind


14
Contemplative 3
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
-


15
Contemplative 4
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
Divine wholeness


16
Contemplative 5
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Persistent Spell
Divine body


17
Contemplative 6
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
Bonus domain (evil)


18
Contemplative 7
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
-
Divine soul


19
Contemplative 8
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Divine Metamagic
-


20
Contemplative 9
+11
+9
+10
+16
Skills
-
Eternal body



Sources:
Complete Arcane - Persistent Spell
Complete Champion - Animal Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
Complete Divine - Contemplative, Divine Metamagic, Lion's Pounce
Draconomicon - Dragon Wild Shape
Fiend Folio - Ophidian
Monster Manual II - Monster of Legend
Online - Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a)
Tome of Battle - Swordsage
I find it very amusing that one of the entries managed to tick all of the req boxes while being almost totally non-draconic or reptilian.

[Lionheart]

OK, so I'm still happy to judge this round, but from my quick glance over the entries it looks like two of them don't actually meet the requirements as laid out by the chair...

[ben-zayb]

I'll be up for judging, but I won't be able to do it until Friday.

[jdizzlean]

OK, so I'm still happy to judge this round, but from my quick glance over the entries it looks like two of them don't actually meet the requirements as laid out by the chair...

you have two options generally speaking.

1. you tank the elegance score and treat the rest of the build as if it was legal for the other metrics.

2. if you think it so grossly violates the rules that the above wouldn't apply, you disqualify the entry, but you have to spell out your reasons for doing so (be prepared for a boisterous dispute...)

[NontheistCleric]

Any updates on judging? Just curious; historically we'll probably have a bit to wait anyway.

[Lionheart]

Apologies for the delay, but yes, judging is ongoing. Should be complete by the end of the week!

[ben-zayb]

Already done with DoM, but I'd rather post all entries at the same time.

[maxion]

Woooow, so few submissions. I could send my serpent monk project even if would be ****ty one :D
Wanted to give there feats serpent strike and serpent fang and maybe Deepstone Sentinel PrC or some Serpent Kingdom PrC. I must take part in next competition :)

[Lionheart]

Ok, judging complete! Please don't take any negative comments to heart, all is meant in a spirit of fun and jest.



Half-dragon, dragon, dragonfire adept. This was pretty much what I expected all the entries to be (at least along those lines), I like the red/steel=rust idea, very nice, but feel like the name and powerset don’t really fit together all that well (especially as there is a Rust Dragon entry in the Draconomicon)

The only entry to gain any points in this category, at least Lord Rust meet the brief. However, the lack of a build table, CR snapshots etc. make the entry harder to navigate than it should be. Nothing else egregious here, but nothing particularly special either.

Dragons are powerful. Dragon dragon dragons even more so. Not sure the focus on breath weapons is that well thought out (no Five-Fold Breath?), though the options here are pretty good. well selected spells, but with a low charisma and only L6 a level 20 party will shrug them off easily, though Planar Ally and buff spells will retain the usefulness. I am also disappointed by the relatively weak physical damage output for a CR20 creature, which seems fairly puny, especially for a dragon. Since the Dragonfire Adept levels don’t add much to the build, and I’m not convinced they are necessary for the ‘character’ of the boss. SR30 means a 20 caster with no optimisation bypasses it half the time, and any spell targeting Lord Rust’s weak Reflex save will shut him down easily. That said, it’s a respectable amount of SR and the other two saves are much stronger.

A questgiver/important political figure secretly being a dragon isn’t much of a surprise anymore, and while Lord Rust’s social skills are top notch, genre-savvy players will probably recognise him for something more than he appears in fairly short order. I also don’t really have any inkling as to why the players will be fighting him, or what his goals are beyond survival and amassing treasure. If anything, those make him more likely to join the party than fight it!



Bonus points for being more than just a dragon, but the half-dragon demon is also pretty played out at this point. However, the idea of him being the vanguard for a whole tribe of these things is very interesting.

Doesn’t meet the brief. Kython does not and is not from a book containing: “Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie)” and therefore receives a 0 for Elegance. I leave it to the chair to decide whether this is a disqualifying issue or not.

At the sweetspot of CR10, Vaakvaal is a very dangerous bruiser with a decent spread of offensive capabilities (flight, breath weapon, natural attacks, poison) and defences (ok SR, high AC, decent saves and a slew of immunities. Inexperienced parties will struggle to engage with flight, and the surprise sting of poison and the alternative presence will keep even well-travelled adventurers on their toes. I really like Robilar’s Gambit, and comboing it with a defensive class like Hidecarved Dragon works beautifully so bonus points here for the CR20 snapshot as well.

I found this the hardest category to judge for Vaakvaal. As the first of its tribe that the players encounter, he will likely be overshadowed by the more powerful variants later in the campaign. Alternatively, he may be fondly remembered even after the kython/dragons become run of the mill. Due to the scant characterisation, I’m going to err on the former. He’ll be an interesting surprise when he turns up, but likely players will be talking about the boss battle with Vaak rather than Vaakvaal in the years to come.



I can certainly say this wasn’t anywhere near my list of what-to-expect in this round. The provided story goes a long way to me buying into the character, and Voidmind gives a little twist to what would otherwise be a very run of the mill Stealth race+Stealth class.

Very clever. However, the rules do state that the book/class/race/whatever must contain the words “Dragon, Wrym, Drake, Reptile, Snake, etc (or any other kind of scaly lizard/reptile/snake like beastie)”. Etc is not a word, and if it were, Fetch is a different word that is not an amendment to the word ‘etc’ and therefore, while the letters ‘etc’ exist in ‘Fetch’, the non-existent word ‘etc’ does not.

Also, reading the rules in such a pedantic way is disingenuous. The truly correct pedantic reading would be that the entry must contain all the words listed, as the rules don’t state that they must contain one of the words, but: the words.

Again, I leave to the chair whether this is grounds for disqualification.

No sweetspot mentioned, so this is a collation of CR10 and 20. Also, no build stub, so hard for me to remember all the moving pieces. CR10 is pretty good, very stealthy, a few unexpected tricks from Voidmind and excess BAB for the level makes him pretty formidable, as well as excellent mobility and a splash of SR for defences. CR20 suffers greatly in comparison. Assassin is not a great class IMO, and does little more than shore up Destroyer-of-Mirrors’s already effective stealth skills. Sneak Attack and Death Attack are the only things being gained from the class, and neither have a massive impact.

This is where this entry shines. An invisible rogue agent trying to destroy all mirrors? That’s a great villain, and the plot hooks write themselves, and can work at basically any level. The diverse abilities from Voidmind, Fetch and Assassin will keep players guessing exactly what it is they’re fighting for a good while.

[jdizzlean]

since there is still another judge working, i'll pm my thoughts on your elegance issues to you


First, I want to thank you for judging. Second I want to point you to the book of vile darkness' entry for Kythons. Their flavour text clearly calls them out as reptilian. He is not a fiend of any kind (although he is definitely as evil as one), but he's neither extraplanar nor an outsider (Before even the half Dragon).



Hello and first of all, thanks for judging.

My Disputes in order:

Overall Style: I intentionally did not go the obvious way wherever possible without straying from my concept of a Dragons Dragon Dragon.
So no easy Rust Dragon, but Reddened Steel. No easy Sorcerer Power Play, but Dragon Disciple, no full focus on Spells and/or Breath Weapons, but going both for the Clichee of the background AND the Armyslayer Dragon. Thats the whole Concept.
I think it a bit strange to be punished pointwise for the, in my view, clever take while both fulfilling all the Clichees AND doing them differently.
So yes, if you only look at the obvious stuff and dont really think about HOW it is accomplished, theres not much to the build.
But please DO give it that second look!

Elegance:
I actually did not copypaste my build table in. I am officially a moron. Akh!
Still, single Dragon, single Template, Single Class Build is about as easy to navigate as it gets (and fully legal!). Granted, my moronicness made it a bit harder, but as I fulfilled all requirrements, and most twice (a point of the build, see below), I think deducting a full 2 points from a perfect score for "harder to read due to creater being a moron" is harsh. How about a 4 in this area? ^^


Power: Well, I intentionally did not pursue the age old staple of abusing the very udner-cred Steel Dragon by going Sorcerer, instead opting for more than enough Dragonness to destroy armies, and yes, did not get much in terms of power out of it, that was kind of the point.
So cant really dispute the score here, with the possible exception of you rating his social prowees a bit too lowly. After all, many a group will have more problems with a socially adept Enemy than with a normal OP" Dragon. Maybe another .5 would be warranted?

Memorability: I have given up arguing this point with any judge.

Just let me try to invoke what Lord Rust should feel like, maybe youll reconsider, maybe you wont.

Here you have an extremely subtle social manipulator who, indeed, might be actually hiring the players and later on working with them to "bring stability to the area" where his plans are supposed to work out.
At the same time his other persona will stir chaos ina reas where he does not actually pursue anything to get the players, and other heroes, to focus on that area. Thereby pacyfying it (as the Bad Rusty will flee before actually facing TRUE opposition). That elaves a new area free for him to "stabilize" as tehy noew most likely lack armies.
In short, he "Rusts" his way into weakened Towns and Areas, making tham his, while at the same time keeping enemies he has to fear at bay.
Both fitting the Rust Theme and more than the usual in Style and challenge, me thinks.

As with all my disputes, please dont take anything in it personal, and again thanks for your time!

[NontheistCleric]

Ah, disputes. After writing backstory, reading the judging and making the build, in that order, writing them is my fourth-favourite part of the competition.

Thinking of names and listing sources are fifth and sixth.

In other news, here's a table.



Entry
Creator
Lionheart's Score
ben-zayb's Score
Rank


Lord Rust
?
11.00

1st


Vaakvaal
?
10.00

2nd


Destroyer-of-Mirrors
?
10.00

2nd



Lord Rust is gold, which doesn't rust...

[jdizzlean]

thanks for the table, i was going to ask for one, lot going on in RL right now and brain=dead


So, that was some very interesting and enjoyable judging, but I do have some issues with it.

First, let's address the elephant in the room: Elegance.

Okay, so first, here you are arguing that etc is not a word. Well, in the context of this competition, apparently it is. Not to mention that technically, any collection of letters could be considered a word. 'Uhisebgibr'. That's a word. It's a nonsense word that doesn't mean anything in any language I know of, but it is one. Not to mention that strictly speaking, 'Wrym' is not a word either, so there is precedent for otherwise-unprecedented words being permissible. Yes, I know, it's a misspelling of 'Wyrm', but so what? This was even pointed out to the Chair and the Chair elected not to change it, so my point stands. 'Chiar' is not the same word as 'Chair', even if it is simply a misspelling.

Under your reasoning that 'Fetch' is not an extension of 'etc', it still contains the combination of letters that comprise the word, so it could be said to comprise the word. Not to mention that under this paradigm, a monster such as the Dragonne, whose name is a distinct word from 'dragon' and not an extended version of it, though it appears similarly, likely as an allusion to certain similarities to dragons the creature possesses (though not enough that it probably would qualify without the name), would not qualify, which I think on balance would be against the spirit of the rule. Of course, using a Fetch is probably also against the spirit of the rule, but then it comes down to whether you want to go with the interpretation that includes one in-the-spirit but also one against-the-spirit, or the one that excludes both of them, not to mention that there are probably more cases in the vein of the Dragonne. In the end, isn't it safer to go with the interpretation that includes rather and excludes, and isn't that more in the overall spirit of a fun internet competition?

Still, I will concede that the interpretation of that point can pretty validly go both ways.

Then, let's engage with your charge of disingenuous pedantism. Firstly, if you were to use that standard, that all the words must be included, it would only be fair to judge not only my build but all builds by it, which you clearly have not done, though I'm not entirely sure by the way you said it whether this was actually a factor or not.

Additionally, I must point out that there is an 'or' in the statement, which would invalidate your claim, although I acknowledge that it is dubiously (in a grammatical sense) placed inside the commas. This, in fact, brings me to my next point.

Ultimately, that requirement (and others, but I'm addressing this one in particular) is simply rife with a lack of grammar and proper spelling. Of course, it is entirely within the Chair's prerogative to formulate such a flawed requirement and I shall not question their motives in doing so. However, the fact remains that in a linguistically strict sense, the poor writing means that we can argue these fine points back and forth and never come to a consensus, as, given that it is not clearly written, it also cannot be interpreted in an entirely clear-cut, unambiguous manner.

I freely admit that my take on it is arguable, and given your stances hardly expect to get a perfect score. However, I maintain that it is arguable rather than totally invalid and thus deserves more than a complete discounting of the Elegance score.

Certainly, I feel like I should be at least be getting more credit in this area than an entry that blatantly used Races of the Wild.
Next, Originality.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but 'wasn’t anywhere near my list of what-to-expect in this round' sounds like you actually found Mirrors notably original. Why is it, then that he gets only a 3? That's basically a +0.5 (assuming you're working from a baseline of 2.5, which you appear to be given your scores in general), which I find pitifully small for such a description especially when you gave Vaakvaal the exact same score even when you seem to think less of that entry's Originality, from your comments.

Even without the comparison to Vaakvaal, I believe I actually went rather out of the way to create something unexpected but also cohesive for the round in both mechanics and overall concept, which you seem to acknowledge was effective. I don't feel that a score of 3 accurately reflects this.

I would also protest the characterization of Fetch as a 'run-of-the-mill stealth race'. It actually has a number of rather unconventional abilities, energy drain, mirror portals and creating spawn among them (though it's true Mirrors doesn't like to use that one).
Finally, Power.

The Assassin levels do not deserve the slamming you are giving them here. Firstly, I would point out that yes, it advances his stealth skills, but obviously something needs to be doing that, and effectively. It's a stealthy character, stealth is part of the overall power and it certainly wouldn't be measuring up to CR 20 standards well if I had gone with, say, Blackguard for those levels.

More than that, it's actually quite a good class. It gives Sneak Attack and Death Attack, which contrary to your claims can be quite effective for a character that can expect to attack from surprise and also have permanent invisibility in combat. It also gives spells, which serve to give Mirrors multiple additional tactical and strategic options as well as improving on his existing capabilities. The spellcasting is pushed even further with Versatile Spellcaster.

It's certainly better than any of the other options for roguish characters in the rather narrow list of allowed sources. Hand of the Winged Masters isn't bad, but it lacks the magical muscle of Assassin and has even less bonus damage. Dragonstalker has the same problems. Ten levels of a base class would not be very different at all. In an optimization sense, I've picked one of the best options available, so I feel like I should be rewarded rather than penalized as you seem to be doing.

If you need further convincing, the Tier System for PrCs lists Assassin as one of the better options in Core, which actually improves a base entry.

Yes, so his BAB is not as far ahead as it was before. Yet, it's still only a single point behind a full-BAB classed character. In that respect, Mirrors can keep up quite effectively, so I don't know what you mean by 'suffers greatly'.

The Voidmind SR and slime blast also scale with level, so they're as relevant at CR 20 as they were at CR 10.
I don't have much contention with the Memorable Villainy score. It's already very good and it's the most subjective category anyway.

That's about all I have to say. I appreciate you taking the time to read my dispute!

[Gallowglass]

EDIT: Removed as not on topic

My Honorable mention goes to the Destroyer of Mirrors!

[GrayDeath]

Please lets keep not arguing the judging.

THats what the Disputes, and ONLY those, are for.

A round died and another was severely wounded by arguing about judgings (and I myself was mildly guilty of doing so in the past).

THanks.

[Thurbane]

Hy honorable mention goes to Vaarkvaal. I found it an enjoyable and interesting entry.

[NontheistCleric]

Can an entry both have a medal and an HM? I don't think it's ever come up before...

[Thurbane]

Can an entry both have a medal and an HM? I don't think it's ever come up before...

I don't believe there's any rules against it...

[jdizzlean]

Can an entry both have a medal and an HM? I don't think it's ever come up before...

I've gotten bronze and hm before, check my sig, i forget which comp it was, and mobile's being dumb

[NontheistCleric]

I've gotten bronze and hm before, check my sig, i forget which comp it was, and mobile's being dumb

Well, yes. For Junkyard Wars. On the other hand, the E6 competition doesn't award HM to medalists, so there's precedent for both approaches.

Since this is the first time this is happening, or not happening as the case may be, in VC, I thought it worth asking.

[ben-zayb]

Since this is the first time this is happening, or not happening as the case may be, in VC, I thought it worth asking.Won't be the first time since it happened back in VC XI
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20806078&postcount=131)

[remetagross]

My HM goes to that crazy Destroyer-of-Mirrors dude :smallbiggrin:

[Lionheart]

Nice! Disputes from all three entries, should be fun! Spoilered responses below:

I'll admit that I did miss the reptilian mention in the Kython monster entry, and while I'm not 100% convinced that this is enough to qualify (to me, the images and description seem more insectoid than reptilian,), there has clearly been some effort made to meet the spirit of the contest. I'll give 2 points for Elegance to redress this.

Apologies to the chef on this one. While I appreciate the effort made to expand on this, I have already noted that the Red/Steel Dragon=Rust was a neat idea and awarded points accordingly; I can't find much in the Lord's abilities that really reflect this concept, so my original scoring stands. IMO not enough has been done to differentiate Lord Rust from a basic CR20 dragon. This is a very subjective one, I admit, but I stand by my judging.

You are right here, the build itself is streamlined and straightforward. However, the lack of a build table remains an issue, as this did make the build harder to assess than it should have been. +0.5 points here.

I'm afraid we'll have to disagree here as well I think. Social skills are difficult to assess in scenarios like this, and while I agree that Lord Rust's focus on this could very cause problems for the party, it seems to me that dragons that did take the obvious sorceror levels would focus on their Charisma more and be almost, if not as, effective as Lord Rust in his place. No change.

I like what you've laid out in your dispute here, but I can't see where this is really alluded to in the original entry. I'm loathe to give points for information about the villain not included in the original entry, so, while this would have upped this score a little if originally included, I'm afraid no change.

Ah, well the main reason I wasn't expecting this entry was due to its, IMO, not an entry in the spirit of this round. The score arrived at was based on the villain's originality in general, not in the context of this round due to the nature of the entry.

However, you have persuaded me that possibly I didn't give Fetch the full attention it deserved, and the decision to shelve a racial ability for flavour is one I appreciate. +0.5 here

While I appreciate your commitment to the idea, and the effort made to logically refute my assertions against your entry, I should make clear that, regardless of the pernickety reading of the entry requirements, I am judging this category far more on the spirit of the contest than the minutiae. I think we both know that you intentionally made an entry that (in your eyes) meets the letter of the requirements but not the spirit, and unfortunately, my judgement here remains the same.

P.S: This is a really great villain, and a really well thought-out concept and build. Just, IMO, not for this particular contest.

I think here we have a mismatch in experience. To me, Assassin has always been rather lackluster, but after reading your arguments (and have a good old read around on other opinions), I concede that there's more versatility and power here than I initially believed.
I also take your point about the lack of options for sneaky characters. I think part of issue here was the difficulty in making stealth-based villains effective against a L20 party. However, my role as judge here is to judge within category, and I'm convinced that Destroyer-of-Mirrors is a far more effective villain than most Stealth builds would be.
+1 point

[ben-zayb]

Finally! I suck at math, so please point out any calculation errors (I was sure I got it right, though)

Lord Rust (12.5)
Originality (2.5)
Lord Rust is the dragon-est dragon to ever dragon, but draggin' this round's theme hurt its originality. Normal dragons already incorporate deception and subtlety to them, and his write-up didn't convince me he was *subtlety incarnate*. Walk Unseen is fun when it works, though.
Building around a "rust" theme is a cool concept, but the execution felt lacking. He's got iron mines, and that's pretty much it. You could've customized his generic spell choice to better reflect the theme, say using one of many decent-to-great spells themed around wind, water, or fog to represent oxidation. Too bad you don't get access to rusting grasp. You could've also incorporated a theme of corrupting metallic dragons since you already have Charm Monster and the social skills to back it up, making them "rust", so to speak. There's a stong potential for originality, and I'm curious to see other ways how you can better incorporate the rust theme.

Elegance (3.75)
The build itself is very elegant, however plenty of minor hits incoming: In terms of formatting, it lacks standardized table entry and CR-based highlight write-up, and the source is incomplete (missing source and lack of page number for obscure stuff).
Statswise, Steel Dragons have no specified Bonus Language choices for high-INT characters, so listed languages are way more than skill ranks allow. Attack bonus lacks size penalty, too. Most other mistakes (CON/INT/CHA/AC) got Lord Rust worse stats than expected, so no penalties for those.

Power (4.25)
Dragons are simply built to be formidable obstacles against PCs, and a good part of Lord Rust stuck to that: Melee beatdown, ranged attrition, mobility, spellcasting versatility, skillmonkeying, he's pretty nice as a gish/skillgish. What dragged him down is the underwhelming Dragonfire Adept levels that would allow PCs to easily catch up to him.

Memorable Villainy (2.0)
There's not enough in the write-up to convince me he'll be memorable. The entry told me what he is, but not enough about who he is. Without much background or personality, there's just not enough for PCs to sink their teeth into past the surface-deep rust. I understand it could be doubly harder for characters who work behind the shadows like Lord Rust to get the PCs to care for them, though.
Vaarkvaal (15.0)
Originality (4.0)
Monk is a bit surprising this round. It's my first time seeing Hidecarved Dragon ever used, too, because presumably monks suck and this is basically a dragon-monk PrC. Reptilian-insect as base race is definitely novel. Half-Dragon and advancing HD are definitely expected for this round, though. Decisive Strike, Combat Reflexes, and general AoO tactics are optimization staples.

Elegance (4.0)
VV has a pretty straightforward and thematic race + template + base class + prc combination. Minor hit due to WIS miscalculation and Weapon Focus not being a bonus feat AFAIK. I'm still unsure about Half-Dragon Kythons being possible, but I'll take that explanation. Bigger hit due to Improved Flight being illegal, but, fortunately, removing it barely affects VV.

Power (3.5)
VV is built as a melee slugger, and he's really great at it. Multiple attacks when needed, and decisive strike + combat reflexes will hit like a truck. He's also hard to kill, what with decent-to-great HP, AC, resistances, and immunities. Aside from that and being a decently mobile and stealthy scout, his other options are much more limited.
Since he doesn't have minionmancy, any incorporation of the Kython brood + Yuan-Ti alliance will be judged as their own, separate campaign element instead of being part of VV's power component.

Memorable Villainy (3.5)
A weird insect-dragon buzzing around the battlefield (or staying still, on Decisive Strike) is bound to be memorable, especially with all the ways you built VV to be as reminiscent of Xenomorphs as possible. It's especially hard to take down, so overcoming it or finding a way around its defenses could make for a fun resolution. VV feels just like a statblock, though. Even minions/grunts can be extremely memorable when provided with a good backstory, motivations, personality, and/or quirks.
Since he doesn't have minionmancy, any incorporation of the Kython brood + Yuan-Ti alliance will be judged as their own, separate campaign element instead of being part of VV's memorability component.

Destroyer-of-Mirrors (13)
Originality (5.0)
Fetch is definitely original, for better or worse. I didn't expect the espionage angle, so Voidmind and Assassin are also somewhat novel for this round. Weirdly unique motivation, and I like how the Mindflayer angle freshens up the otherwise trite brainwashed/unbrainwashed agent story. Since DoM rejects and breaks mirrors instead of using them for stealthily (death) attacking, he's even unusual compared to what one would expect from a Fetch assassin.

Elegance (0)
There's more or less an admission of going against the spirit of the current round's theme. Since optimization contests like VC sometimes thoughtfully consider RAI as much as it does RAW, I have to say no this time. I'll give you plenty of internet points for the wit, but Regina George might be right this time. (https://youtu.be/Pubd-spHN-0)
Race + template + class combination is elegant and makes perfect sense in the context of DoM's story. Fetch should be a CR6 9HD creature AFAIK. There's that significant issue of skill tricks being illegal, but they are such a small part of the build that they're the least of DoM's worries.

Power (3.75)
Combatwise, DoM is good, but not especially great. He has a hodgepodge of approach to take down the PCs, sure, but the lack of focus hurts his potency. Furthermore, its refusal to use its most unique tactics--that is, being mobile between the Abyss and the material plane via reflection--nerfs it really hard. Assassins would normally enjoy studying its target for 3 round from the "safety" of the Abyss, but not DoM. There's also no mention of poison usage, which is a missed opportunity for an assassin. He has social skills and UMD for much needed versatility, though, which are nearly always helpful.

Memorable Villainy (4.25)
DoM almost feels like a puzzle-type encounter: He's a stealthy type of villain with no apparent motivation, so PCs would have to think ahead to anticipate his plans and next moves. PCs could exploit his flaws and weird obsessions to lure him or predict his attack patterns. Cuckoolander monster that seriously tries to break troughs, aqueducts, and water reservoirs is just too powerful and funny a visual to forget. He's just easy to make memorable under a good DM. His rich backstory gives the DM enough options on which to integrate in a campaign, in order to give PCs with a good plot hook.

[jdizzlean]

Rebuttal for Lion


@ Power: YOu are arguing that he is not as good at damage dealing as a full Martial and does not cast as well as a full caster. Both correct.

However Power is a rating for "how well does he do what he is supposed to do", and given he is supposed to be a great Socializer, Good Caster and excellent Flyer/Bombardment Dragon, you should rate him following that.
If we rate everything only compared to "how well does it do against a Group of CR appropiate PC`s with full casters in the Party" then no rating EVER that is not a highly optimized caster will get to 4 or above.

Mind,as I wrote, I am aware he actually loses SOME power due to the Triple Dragonness (say around a point), but even with "merely Good" Damage he has amazing To Hit Bonuses, good to very good defenses even without Items, flies with 200ft speed at good maneuverability, usually has a minimum result (non nat 1s) of 38 at all 3 active Social Skills (See Invocations), can stack multiple shapeable Breath weapons that each stay for 2 turns AND casts about as good as a Bard.
he has no obvious weaknesses except a Reflex Save that is merely good instead of great, and many strengths.
I cannot for the life of me see how that is a 3, ergo "does what he is supposed to do, but has obvious weaknesses" Level.


As for Memorability: All needed to see what his modus operandi is was in the original post. Granted, I did not spell out everything in detail, but then again, part of what makes judging really ahrd is to look beyond the obvious, both for Bonuses and Maluses to the scores. :)

Again thanks for Judging.


and for Ben:


First, thank you for judging. Always a thankless job.

I completely agree with your Elegance and Power ratings, but do have some minor disputes for the other 2 Areas.

1.: Originality: How often do you see a half-Dragon Dragon Dragonfire Adept? Even if you expceted such a thing in this round (I know I didnt^^).
That alone should get me a bit more than a below average 2.5, no? Especially since this area is not just about how mechanics on the surface, but also about HOW you achieved it.
And doing a Rust theme without anyhting actually giving any Rust Powers is unusual too, no?

Memorability: He is meant to stand for symbolic Rust. I thought I had made that clear enough, especially with avoiding Rust Dragon and Rust Abilities.
The slow, systematic decay of things. The unavoidable Influence, that you never get rid of, see his Social Skills.
Also, in my experience Social Characters are Hit or miss. Either they are forgotten isntantly, or remembered forever. The second mostly if they manage to fool the PC`s, for which Lord Rust has more than one way to achieve it. AND (if they find it out themselves) the fact that he is actually at times both quest giver and opponent should help to at least get above the "same old same old/Boring" stuff, which a 2.0 would be for me....

Maybe these clarifications will get me some points, maybe they wont. Still think they were necessary, since Is adly f..ked up with the Formatting pretty badly...sigh.

[ben-zayb]

@Lord Rust: Disputes are part of the fun. Don't worry about it.
Triple dragon's novelty has already been taken into account with your score, it's just that it had a couple of things that kept it from giving you a higher score. 1. Half-dragon dragon is already a bit of an ocassionally-discussed optimization option in the playground, and is expected. 2. Both red dragons and steel dragons are similarly known and used in optimization contests. 3. IMO it's fair that a strong dragon concept loses a lot of its novelty in a round dedicated for scaled creatures.

As for the rust theme, it's alright to not include actual X powers if you are using X as symbolic theme, it's just not exactly original by itself. I didn't see anything what makes his symbolic rust theme of corruption/deception stand out compared to the bazillion corruption/deception schticks that has BBEGs trick PCs into working for him or her as a quest giver. If you had provided more specific gimmicks or methods unique to Lord Rust to approach this corruption/deception angle, I might have something more to work with and consider. The thing with memorability is that it is highly subjective and can easily be based on one's previous experiences with RPG cliches. Refer to my Originality comments on why his symbolic Rust theme didn't work for me--don't just say you cast a spell or rolled a massive CHA-based skill check result, narrate to me what you are doing with those sweet social skills. Also at this point, quest givers turning out to be bad guys felt already like a well-trodden road in literature and video games. There's more to villainy than that to be memorable. You succeeded in showcasing me what Lord Rust's build does, but he could be more memorable for me had you successfully showcased who he is.

[Lionheart]

Response to Lord Rust's dispute

I don't really have very much else to add here. As I stated in my response to a previous power dispute, I have been judging power based on how the villain sits in relation to other equal CR'd creatures in their category. Vaakvaal was judged against other bruisers, Destroyer-of-Mirrors against other stealth/surprise creatures, and Lord Rust against the only fair judging point, a basic CR20 dragon (As you rightly say, I can't compare him to a full caster, nor to just a melee combatant, and the easy comparison for a "great socalizer, good caster and excellent Flyer/Bombardment dragon" is to exactly that, other dragons.

IMO, Lord Rust doesn't come out particularly well in that comparison. He's got a few neat tricks that standard Chromatic and Metallic Dragons don't have, but the Dragonfire Adept levels really hurt the comparison both in melee and casting capability, and don't really bring that much to make up for it.

No change.

[jdizzlean]

rebuttal for Lion, dispute for Ben:


Okay, here we go. This is for both judges, in regards to the 0 in Elegance both have given me. I'll have some individual disputes later.

It's certainly true that the intent of the rules is important. As ben-zayb puts it, RAI vs RAW.

Before I get into my actual argument, let me just say that I don't agree entirely with what you seem to think is the spirit of the rules. In my view, the restrictions are there to spark creativity and innovation by restricting choice. Yes, they lean towards making reptile-themed villains, but if a entry manages to find a way to do something unexpected while remaining within the letter of the law, couldn't that be seen as creativity to be rewarded?

That said, 'spirit of the rules' is fairly subjective anyway. If you want to take it that the rules mean one MUST have a reptile villain, because of the intent alone, regardless of what is actually typed there, it's not your interpretation of what the spirit is but rather that imperative that I shall proceed to argue.

As I said above, the spirit of the rules is surely important. It's what makes the rules, what motivates them.

BUT

The letter of the rules is equally important, perhaps even more important, I would argue. The spirit is what makes them, but the letter is what they are made of.

In regards to my choosing of race, I made as sure as I could to stick to the letter of the rules. I don't think anyone disagrees that that is the case. That is why I find it completely incongruent when my race choice perfectly complies with what is written right in the OP, but is disqualified totally based on 'the spirit of the rules'. Whatever the motivation may have been, Fetch, based on what is actually in those restrictions, is a valid choice.

I don't mind saying that, as judges, you have an obligation to respect both the spirit and letter of the rules. This is the case with any judge of any rule, any law. In real law, legal loopholes are found and plugged, but if at the time of judging something doesn't actually break the law, it doesn't, and that matters. Even within this competition, the Leadership rules have been changed following some incidents with the feat, but as long as it was wholly illegal, those builds that used it solely to qualify for things did not go unpenalised because that was not in the spirit of the rules, as Leadership was banned due to cohort-related problems.

Obviously, we aren't dealing with actual law here. You are not judges in court. Nor is this about VC policy in the way it was in my example above. Yet, some of the principles remain the same.

If you want to say I violated the spirit of the competition, fine. Penalise me for that. I agree, the spirit must be respected, but so must the letter. In the end, I've followed the rule that is written right there in the OP. I don't deserve to have my Elegance score wiped out wholesale for that.

Skill tricks, though. I missed that those were illegal this time round. My bad on that one. Still, I don't think that justifies more penalty than Vaakvaal's Improved Flight did. Good job catching that, ben-zayb.

[ben-zayb]

Away from laptop, so I can't expound on details.
We simply fundamentally disagree on points. Though, I'd like to point out that referencing RL judicial systems may be skirting the lines of allowed discussion, so I won't further challenge/argue/discuss the veracity of certain claims relating to it.

Meeting RAI and RAW are both necessary for my rubric this time. Much as I like DoM's clever way of meeting RAW, it didn't qualify RAI in the end.


Destroyer of Mirrors earns my vote for HM

[NontheistCleric]

Entry
Creator
Lionheart's Score
ben-zayb's Score
Total
Rank


Vaakvaal
?
12.00
15.00
27.00
1st


Destroyer-of-Mirrors
?
11.50
13.00
24.50
2nd


Lord Rust
?
11.50
12.50
24.00
3rd



Updated table.

[jdizzlean]

hopefully this is the last one and we can move on today or tomorrow...

rebuttal for Ben


Just wanted to bring up some points with Power.

DoM doesn't exactly refuse to use the mirror portal tactic - he just doesn't plan on being in the Abyss a lot. If he were to be banished by a party, he would be all the more inclined to do this in revenge. I would also disagree that it's that big of a blow, since it's not like there's no other way he can study them for 3 rounds, especially as he is permanently invisible.

As for poison usage, he only gets safe poison use at CR 11, by which time poisons are already becoming less relevant. Not to mention he already has Energy Drain and Death Attack - most poisons would pale in comparison. Granted, there are still some good poisons (provided they could actually work in the first place), but I didn't want to assume that any specific equipment would be available.

I don't actually know how much those points impacted the score, but since you mentioned them, I thought I'd bring them up.

With regards to Elegance, the base fetch is CR 9 and 6 HD, but DoM is advanced. I think that should be clear from the entry.

I don't really think I'll be able to get you to budge on the whole RAW/RAI issue, but let me try one more time. You've already acknowledged that apart from that, the build is quite elegant. I don't find it fair that I get no credit for this. Vaakvaal has an illegal feat. DoM has a not-even-technically-illegal race. While I can accept that you might give a bigger penalty for the second, I think it's not deserved that the whole Elegance score should be discounted as a result.

[ben-zayb]

I see, so DoM is much closer to what's expected from a Fetch (Assassin).

Originality (-0.5)
Power (+0.5)
Elegance (no change)

Total score: No change

[jdizzlean]

Ok, calling it.

Thanks to the chefs, and judges!

HM goes to TwoLegs for Destroyer!



Entry
Creator
Lionheart's Score
ben-zayb's Score
Total
Rank


Vaakvaal
Falontani
12.00
15.00
27.00
1st


Destroyer-of-Mirrors
TwoLegsArmchair
11.50
13.00
24.50
2nd



Lord Rust

GrayDeath
11.50
12.50
24.00
3rd




I'll get the new round up in about an hour, maybe longer, maybe shorter :p


NEW ROUND UP

[NontheistCleric]

Just pointing out that you didn't give Lionheart a chance to respond. Still, Silver with HM is the best result I've gotten so far.

Congratulations to everyone who won something, which is everyone!

[jdizzlean]

Just pointing out that you didn't give Lionheart a chance to respond. Still, Silver with HM is the best result I've gotten so far.

Congratulations to everyone who won something, which is everyone!

whoops.

if his response changes the rankings, we'll go w/ it.

rounds been going on for a month and a half though, it was time for a new one

[Falontani]

Happy that I won gold! Been trying for gold on VC for a while and barely every even place, if I do place.

[NontheistCleric]

Happy that I won gold! Been trying for gold on VC for a while and barely every even place, if I do place.

I remember you got gold in the Multiple Personality Disorder round. Beat me for it then, too.

I'll surpass you one day!

[Falontani]

I remember you got gold in the Multiple Personality Disorder round. Beat me for it then, too.

I'll surpass you one day!

I honestly thought either Green Fire or the God King would win that one up until judgments. That was a heated competition.

[Lionheart]

My response to DoM was going to be pretty much the same as ben's, so the published table stands.

Very much enjoyed judging this round, interesting entries all round.

See you all in the new thread.