Building a WARMAGE - Help

[Mescalinic]

Hi everyone. :)

Long story short, as a (still) terrible noob, I knew pretty much nothing about the Warmage class, except that it was considered pretty lackluster (actually, often pretty bad) by a lot o people in multiple forums, handbooks, and so on.

Now, I was just reading the thread "Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!" (lots of interesting stuff in there, really) and I was surprised to read that, contrary to those opinions, the class is considered pretty "solid" and capable of doing great things.

My problem is... it is probably the only class I can't seem to finda ANY "updated" guide-handbook-topic to start understanding how to build one.

Every handbooks/topic I've found is actually quite old (and everyone of those clearly state that the Warmage kinda sucks) or extremely specific, but nothing about "how to build a Warmage 1.0"

Can you people point me towards some good, recent, "updated" materials to start understanding and building the class? Thank you :)

[JNAProductions]

To be fair, even old guides can be quite useful. It's not like 3.5 has been getting updates lately, eh? :P

[Kalkra]

Rainbow Servant, Sand Shaper, Prestige Bard if you want, etc. You can get a pretty good Warmage even without all that, if you only want to blast (although you'd probably be better off with a Sorcerer for a straight damage build).

[ngilop]

The War Mage prestige class from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals bumps the power of the Warmage class up a notch in the warmage's main (and subpar) schtick. Couple that with a way to expand the spell list, like the above mention sand shaper or wyrm wizard and it comes out pretty solid.

[Troacctid]

I've been working on a warmage handbook in the vein of my Warlockopedia. Here's what I have so far:

Introduction (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lGRS0TJaI2Y9NZtsPRfgnVvvZAGwhJRaTb_FgXLPPDk/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Spells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kyVC9uXZBCgNU-eoUDb0AHSj4DM9rLaTWMuzzw62Qa4/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Advanced learning (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mBZFBdZRuCtldiqti91ej1FkIbngCr_aYKyF5zyZee8/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Feats (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kRm19NLPkyvXuWnkM0goBSztg9PfGbiHlylijIY3WuA/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Prestige classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UhcBTAHS5wsP-t3j1P23Gmi3Gty2v3tTa-0HqMVsBHc/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Itemization (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgINDD7nEVLs6B_ygsj4SLJza_YrZLGU89KdjIumP7M/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Sample builds (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LjT2MMU7NM1HVw6lofLO2SxNVR3xUknzLnr-ezsIrFc/edit?usp=sharing)

It's still a work in progress, but hopefully this helps!

[Kalkra]

I've been working on a warmage handbook in the vein of my Warlockopedia. Here's what I have so far:

Introduction (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lGRS0TJaI2Y9NZtsPRfgnVvvZAGwhJRaTb_FgXLPPDk/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Spells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kyVC9uXZBCgNU-eoUDb0AHSj4DM9rLaTWMuzzw62Qa4/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Advanced learning (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mBZFBdZRuCtldiqti91ej1FkIbngCr_aYKyF5zyZee8/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Feats (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kRm19NLPkyvXuWnkM0goBSztg9PfGbiHlylijIY3WuA/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Prestige classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UhcBTAHS5wsP-t3j1P23Gmi3Gty2v3tTa-0HqMVsBHc/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Itemization (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgINDD7nEVLs6B_ygsj4SLJza_YrZLGU89KdjIumP7M/edit?usp=drivesdk)

It's still a work in progress, but hopefully this helps!

And here I foolishly thought that making an index of all the casting classes would be enough for you. Who knew you were going to make handbooks for them all too?

[liquidformat]

Well I used to have a really nice handbook for warmages but it apparently got removed the only one I could find is RPGBOT's (https://rpgbot.net/dnd35/characters/classes/warmage/) and to be frank their handbooks suck...
Anyways the warmage isn't all bad it just takes some effort. Back in the day in fact there were some low level dungeon run competitions and warmages blew everything else out of the water. The real issue is they are great if you have a set level range you are looking at like 1-5 6-9 10-20 but are rough to make work well 1-20 especially without retaining.
Here is a quick and dirty guide:

For starters in low level games Warmage Edge is pretty amazing and if you are only planning to go up to around level 5 anyways building around Warmage Edge with high int score and blasting is a great strategy. However, after ~level 5 the damage of spells themselves far outpaces the bonuses from Warmage Edge so unless you are sure you aren't going above say level 5 in your campaign it is better to keep int somewhat low.

For low level campaigns I would put stats: Int<Con=Dex<Cha<Wis<Str
For standard warmage Cha<Con=Dex<Wis<Int<Str
Race choices tend to be similar to the suggestions for Beguilers, Dread Necromancer, Bard, and Sorcerer

The Eclectic learning ACF(PHBII) is mandatory there is no reason not to use

RPGBOT's feat section is pretty decent only a couple of things to add Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus are quite good for warmages since pretty much all their spells will be Evocation. If retraining is on the table reserve feats are very good for warmages(AFB so will give suggestions later). Though you don't have Knowledge (Religion) as skill Arcane Disciple is a good feat choice to help broaden your spell list.

For PRCs the best ones to choose are ones that expand your spell list so Snad Shaper is a great choice even though the skill requirements suck, Rainbow Servant is always nice even better if the dm lets it be full casting, also Mage of the Arcane Order though entry requires taking Arcane Preparation.

[Troacctid]

For low level campaigns I would put stats: Int<Con=Dex<Cha<Wis<Str
For standard warmage Cha<Con=Dex<Wis<Int<Str
I'm assuming your arrows are backwards. Either way, this is wrong; Wis should be your dump stat, not Strength. Strength is used for melee spells like chill touch, while Wisdom isn't used for anything.


RPGBOT's feat section is pretty decent only a couple of things to add Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus are quite good for warmages since pretty much all their spells will be Evocation. If retraining is on the table reserve feats are very good for warmages(AFB so will give suggestions later). Though you don't have Knowledge (Religion) as skill Arcane Disciple is a good feat choice to help broaden your spell list.
Warmage spells are a mix of evocation and conjuration with some necromancy. Most of the spells that require saving throws for any effect other than half damage are conjuration, unless you're taking something like shockwave or Boccob's rolling cloud as an advanced learning—but you already said you're on all eclectic learnings. I would not take Spell Focus except as a prerequisite for something like Energy Gestalt or Evoker's Mark. Greater Spell Focus is right out.


For PRCs the best ones to choose are ones that expand your spell list so Snad Shaper is a great choice even though the skill requirements suck, Rainbow Servant is always nice even better if the dm lets it be full casting, also Mage of the Arcane Order though entry requires taking Arcane Preparation.
No respect for incantatrix?

[liquidformat]

I'm assuming your arrows are backwards. Either way, this is wrong; Wis should be your dump stat, not Strength. Strength is used for melee spells like chill touch, while Wisdom isn't used for anything.

Yep got those backward, I normally dump strength with my warmage and stay far away from melee range, I have a familiar for delivering touch attacks normally...


Warmage spells are a mix of evocation and conjuration with some necromancy. Most of the spells that require saving throws for any effect other than half damage are conjuration, unless you're taking something like shockwave or Boccob's rolling cloud as an advanced learning—but you already said you're on all eclectic learnings. I would not take Spell Focus except as a prerequisite for something like Energy Gestalt or Evoker's Mark. Greater Spell Focus is right out.
Fair point, I like making it harder for the enemies to take half damage but that might just be me <("), then again spell focus/greater spell focus are at the low end of feats I ever look at.


No respect for incantatrix?

I have personally never used nor looked at incantatrix and quite a few of the groups I have played with have flat out banned incantatrix so really have no opinion on it either way.

[Kalkra]

Depending on the campaign, War Magic Study (Dragon #309) can be bonkers good, particularly with a Warmage where a compelling case could be made for automatically knowing the War versions of all of your spells.

[Ramza00]

A Runestaff of 3 Useful Spells is all you need to boost a Warmage from Tier 4 to Tier 3. This is because the Warmage already has enough damage spells, plus a few GREAT battlefield control spells that you are useful at all levels of play. Adding 3 or so more spells to your spell list with a Runestaff is enough. Sure you need to use UMD with the staff but you have the spell slots to fuel it.

[liquidformat]

A Runestaff of 3 Useful Spells is all you need to boost a Warmage from Tier 4 to Tier 3. This is because the Warmage already has enough damage spells, plus a few GREAT battlefield control spells that you are useful at all levels of play. Adding 3 or so more spells to your spell list with a Runestaff is enough. Sure you need to use UMD with the staff but you have the spell slots to fuel it.

if 3 spells is all it takes to bump up to Tier 3 than it should already be tier 3 since Eclectic learning ACF would do the same correct?

[Troacctid]

Warmage is already T3.

[Ramza00]

if 3 spells is all it takes to bump up to Tier 3 than it should already be tier 3 since Eclectic learning ACF would do the same correct?
Your logic is sound the problem is quantity.

You only get 4 advanced learnings, they are evocation only (or you can take 1 level lower) and the advanced learnings are levels behind from an ECL standpoint at all levels besides the level 06 one.

Spell Lvl 1 at level 03
Spell Lvl 3 at level 06
Spell Lvl 5 at level 11
Spell Lvl 7 at level 16

These Advanced Learnings help but it is not enough. Adding 3 spell known of your highest or 2nd highest known that you get to choose (for you crafted it with a friend or market or ancestral relic) is enough to change the balance of the class. Adding enough quantity to a class can change it a tier.

Remember also we are bumping Tier 4 to Tier 3, and the definitions of Tiers are not congruent. What is the difference between T3 vs. T4 is not the same as T2 vs. T3

Tier 4A Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise.
Tier 4B ..or... capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining.

vs
Tier 3A: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate.
Tier 3B: or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.
3s also: Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.


So what I am saying is lets say a level 8 build with a Runestaff. A warmage would have 6/6/5/3 base spells before bonus. A charisma of 18 gives you 1/1/1/1 bonus spells so 7/7/6/4 at level 8 and even more if you have a higher charisma.

Buying a Runestaff (not crafting it, not ancestral relic) with a single 4th level spell and then 2 3rd level spells you can use 3x a day would cost you
4x4x200 =(3.2k)+
3x3x200 =(1.8k)+
3x3x200 =(1.8k)=6.8k total or 25.18% your wealth by level

Thus allowing you to do two 3rd level spells 3x a day (so 6 total) and one 4th level spell once per day.

-----

Tier Wise: So what I am saying in another way is spending a feat on Ancestral Relic (allowing you to craft rune staffs at level 3 and not level 12. You then spend 1/4th your wealth by level (except it is really 1/8th your wealth by level for you can convert anything your party does not want to something useful. All for the small price of a feat. You can also change your spell layout for your runestaff each day. A single feat is enough to make a Warmage go up a tier. That or spending a little more money and getting a custom runestaff made.

[Troacctid]

Warmages don't have UMD, so runestaffs aren't even good for them.

[Kalkra]

*Snip*

Instead of Ancestral Relic, you could just take a Bloodline feat, or Arcane Disciple, or something. You get more spells with less hassle. Or you could theurge. I'm personally fond of Mind Mage for blasters, but Ultimate Magus-ing with a Wizard, or the always-reliable ur-Priest theurge can give you all the flexibility you need, without sacrificing much in the way of raw damage.

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, if you use some Duskblade Arcane Channeling-like ability with Chill Touch, what happens? (Other than your GM banning Chill Touch, that is.)

[Ramza00]

Instead of Ancestral Relic, you could just take a Bloodline feat, or Arcane Disciple, or something. You get more spells with less hassle. Or you could theurge. I'm personally fond of Mind Mage for blasters, but Ultimate Magus-ing with a Wizard, or the always-reliable ur-Priest theurge can give you all the flexibility you need, without sacrificing much in the way of raw damage.

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, if you use some Duskblade Arcane Channeling-like ability with Chill Touch, what happens? (Other than your GM banning Chill Touch, that is.)

While Bloodlines are good I like the ability to pick my spells and get multiple spells of the same level. Bloodline you may get 9 spells but sometimes not all 9 of those spells are good and if we are talking lower level play such as level 8 that is only 4 spells known, and it is 1/1/1/1 so on and so on.

Of course the nice thing is you can always do both. :smalltongue:

But yeah while Warmage is Tier 4, it quickly becomes Tier 3 just by adding a few more spells known. Now Tier 3 has a lot of levels of play for it means you are capable but not all Tier 3s are equally capable.


Warmages don't have UMD, so runestaffs aren't even good for them.

Forgot about this. Well it is my opinion you should be doing minor houserules now a days anyway. It has been 15 years since Complete Arcane we got a better idea of how to play 3.5 and Pathfinder what balances the game and what inherently unbalances it. Changing some minor things with new information and thousands / millions of plays is completely rational and reasonable.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, it's not T4, though, it's a solid T3. Upper half of the tier, even, with outs to T2.

[NigelWalmsley]

If you really need UMD, there are ways to get it. Runestaff shenanigans are probably good enough that you're justified going for it.


No respect for incantatrix?

Not for a Warmage. What are you going to do, make Fist of Stone last all day? If you have the time to get to the capstone of a 10 level PrC, you are required by law to instead be a Rainbow Servant, and the kinds of spells the Incantatrix is good with have very little overlap with the kinds of spells the Warmage gets. You don't really care about bonus metamagic feats either, because you're a spontaneous caster. The only thing you can really use effectively as a Warmage is Cooperative Metamagic. Which is actually pretty good, but you probably want to prioritizing adding spells your list instead.

[Kalkra]

Not for a Warmage. What are you going to do, make Fist of Stone last all day? If you have the time to get to the capstone of a 10 level PrC, you are required by law to instead be a Rainbow Servant, and the kinds of spells the Incantatrix is good with have very little overlap with the kinds of spells the Warmage gets. You don't really care about bonus metamagic feats either, because you're a spontaneous caster. The only thing you can really use effectively as a Warmage is Cooperative Metamagic. Which is actually pretty good, but you probably want to prioritizing adding spells your list instead.

Incantatrix is nice with cloud/fog type spells, (usually Empowering or Maximizing, rather than Persisting), and Instant Metamagic is always nice. Also, Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat, so you can never have too many bonus metamagic feats.

[Troacctid]

If you really need UMD, there are ways to get it. Runestaff shenanigans are probably good enough that you're justified going for it.



Not for a Warmage. What are you going to do, make Fist of Stone last all day? If you have the time to get to the capstone of a 10 level PrC, you are required by law to instead be a Rainbow Servant, and the kinds of spells the Incantatrix is good with have very little overlap with the kinds of spells the Warmage gets. You don't really care about bonus metamagic feats either, because you're a spontaneous caster. The only thing you can really use effectively as a Warmage is Cooperative Metamagic. Which is actually pretty good, but you probably want to prioritizing adding spells your list instead.
Warmages get fire seeds, which works pretty well with metamagic effect. Also it's a ton of bonus metamagic feats.

[NigelWalmsley]

Incantatrix is nice with cloud/fog type spells, (usually Empowering or Maximizing, rather than Persisting), and Instant Metamagic is always nice. Also, Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat, so you can never have too many bonus metamagic feats.

Empowering a Stinking Cloud the round after you cast it is not better than getting extra utility spells on your list. I'm not saying the Incantatrix is a garbage PrC for a Warmage by any means. It's a full casting PrC that grants you class features that do anything at all. That makes it better than continuing to take Warmage levels, and better than most printed PrCs. But it's not a top-tier PrC for a Warmage in the way that it is for a Wizard.

[Troacctid]

For the record, these are the prestige classes that I rated with five out of five fireballs.

Anima Mage (Improved Bind Vestige entry)
Escalation Mage
Halruaan Elder
Incantatrix
Mage of the Arcane Order
Paragnostic Apostle
Rainbow Servant (text over table version)
Shadow Apostle
Tainted Scholar
Urban Savant

[PairO'Dice Lost]

While Bloodlines are good I like the ability to pick my spells and get multiple spells of the same level. Bloodline you may get 9 spells but sometimes not all 9 of those spells are good and if we are talking lower level play such as level 8 that is only 4 spells known, and it is 1/1/1/1 so on and so on.

If you don't mind being dragonblooded and spending some XP, you can take a [Bloodline] feat that mostly gives the spells you want and use dragonblood spell-pact (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/dragons-of-faerun--26/dragonblood-spell-pact--1117/index.html) to swap out the rest for any spells you'd like so long as you can find a suitable trading partner.

But that's definitely on the high-op side, and your DM might be less "Eh, you're a warmage? Go for it" about it than I would. :smallamused:

[Mescalinic]

I've been working on a warmage handbook in the vein of my Warlockopedia. Here's what I have so far:

Introduction (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lGRS0TJaI2Y9NZtsPRfgnVvvZAGwhJRaTb_FgXLPPDk/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Spells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kyVC9uXZBCgNU-eoUDb0AHSj4DM9rLaTWMuzzw62Qa4/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Advanced learning (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mBZFBdZRuCtldiqti91ej1FkIbngCr_aYKyF5zyZee8/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Feats (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kRm19NLPkyvXuWnkM0goBSztg9PfGbiHlylijIY3WuA/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Prestige classes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UhcBTAHS5wsP-t3j1P23Gmi3Gty2v3tTa-0HqMVsBHc/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Itemization (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgINDD7nEVLs6B_ygsj4SLJza_YrZLGU89KdjIumP7M/edit?usp=drivesdk)

It's still a work in progress, but hopefully this helps!

:smallredface: thank to everyone, and especially to you, that's a sh*t ton of information, I'm gonna study every detail *_*

[NigelWalmsley]

If you don't mind being dragonblooded and spending some XP, you can take a [Bloodline] feat that mostly gives the spells you want and use dragonblood spell-pact (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/dragons-of-faerun--26/dragonblood-spell-pact--1117/index.html) to swap out the rest for any spells you'd like so long as you can find a suitable trading partner.

TBF, if you're using Dragonblood Spell-Pact, you don't even really need a Bloodline. You have literally six different orb spells. Trade some of those for Dimension Door or Polymorph. If Dragonblood Spell-Pact is on the table, a Warmage is just a better Sorcerer.

[liquidformat]

While Bloodlines are good I like the ability to pick my spells and get multiple spells of the same level. Bloodline you may get 9 spells but sometimes not all 9 of those spells are good and if we are talking lower level play such as level 8 that is only 4 spells known, and it is 1/1/1/1 so on and so on.

Of course the nice thing is you can always do both. :smalltongue:

But yeah while Warmage is Tier 4, it quickly becomes Tier 3 just by adding a few more spells known. Now Tier 3 has a lot of levels of play for it means you are capable but not all Tier 3s are equally capable.



Forgot about this. Well it is my opinion you should be doing minor houserules now a days anyway. It has been 15 years since Complete Arcane we got a better idea of how to play 3.5 and Pathfinder what balances the game and what inherently unbalances it. Changing some minor things with new information and thousands / millions of plays is completely rational and reasonable.

You are honestly making a strong argument that warmage should never have been placed in tier 4 to begin with and that whoever did the tiering eval you are referring to did a very bad job of taking into account feats and equipment characters would standardly use. Perhaps you should instead look at a better evaluating tiering, I personally prefer this retiering (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home).

Anyways the great thing about warmage when compared to beguiler or dread necromancer is you have no real reason to stay in the class so getting into prcs as soon as possible is your best choice.

[ngilop]

Can somebody explain to me how the Warmage (the class not the class plus all the PrCs plus feast that expand on what the class is) is tier 3.. let alone how they are tier 2?


I understand text over table rainbow servant can get them tier 2. Bu that is not the warmage.

The warmage to me is a very VERY solid tier 4. Which is as follows:
Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.


basically 90% of what a warmage can do is roll a Xd6s in Y shape doing Z energy damage. Warmae edge is pointless after the first 3 or so levels, and I was completely of the understanding that the class tiers were independant of optimization and prestige classes and other additional options does not make the CLASS a higher tier but the character?

I could be wrong, i just thought that was how the tier system worked.

[stack]

Nitpick: Rainbow servant granting spontaneous casting to the full cleric list would kick you to tier 1, not tier 2, since the cleric list is, in my understanding, a tier 1 list. Not as strong as full wizard casting, but still extremely powerful and versatile.

[liquidformat]

Can somebody explain to me how the Warmage (the class not the class plus all the PrCs plus feast that expand on what the class is) is tier 3.. let alone how they are tier 2?


I understand text over table rainbow servant can get them tier 2. Bu that is not the warmage.

The warmage to me is a very VERY solid tier 4. Which is as follows:


Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

basically 90% of what a warmage can do is roll a Xd6s in Y shape doing Z energy damage. Warmae edge is pointless after the first 3 or so levels, and I was completely of the understanding that the class tiers were independant of optimization and prestige classes and other additional options does not make the CLASS a higher tier but the character?

I could be wrong, i just thought that was how the tier system worked.
Out of the box the warmage has accesses to every damage type and lots of different status affects that end up being save or suck/save or loose. Starting with second level spells they start getting battle field control spells like Pyrotechnics then stinking cloud, sleet storm, wall of fire and so forth. Just a quick look through their spell list should already push them out of tier 4, they are just as capable on a battle field as your ToB classes and that is before you start diving into advanced learning/eclectic learning or adding in meta magic feats or other feats that add more spells to your list.

[Kalkra]

Can somebody explain to me how the Warmage (the class not the class plus all the PrCs plus feast that expand on what the class is) is tier 3.. let alone how they are tier 2?


I understand text over table rainbow servant can get them tier 2. Bu that is not the warmage.

The warmage to me is a very VERY solid tier 4. Which is as follows:

basically 90% of what a warmage can do is roll a Xd6s in Y shape doing Z energy damage. Warmae edge is pointless after the first 3 or so levels, and I was completely of the understanding that the class tiers were independant of optimization and prestige classes and other additional options does not make the CLASS a higher tier but the character?

I could be wrong, i just thought that was how the tier system worked.

First of all, they do have a few utility spells, like Shatter. Also, they have Advanced/Eclectic Learning, which can snag Polymorph and/or the Shadow spells for greatly improved versatility, and one or two feats can add a whole new dimension to the character, be it mental control or buffing. Also, even if you ignore all of that, compare a Warmage to a quintessential T4 class, like Barbarian. It's just better.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Ramza00]

Also, they have Advanced/Eclectic Learning

Like I said earlier the Warmage gets very few advanced learnings. Only 3 by level 11. A 1, 3, 5 evocation spell at level 11, or a 0, 2, 4 non evocation spell.

Aka your 3.5 polymorph comes online at level 11 as a 4th level spell.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

TBF, if you're using Dragonblood Spell-Pact, you don't even really need a Bloodline. You have literally six different orb spells. Trade some of those for Dimension Door or Polymorph. If Dragonblood Spell-Pact is on the table, a Warmage is just a better Sorcerer.

You don't need a bloodline, it just gives you up to 9 extra spells to play with if you want to keep most of the standard ones. I've definitely played in campaigns with fairly smart and adaptive enemies where constantly switching up damage types was necessary, and in those cases keeping e.g. 3 or 4 of your 6 orbs is a reasonable decision.

And DSP only makes warmages better sorcerers if you start swapping out most of your list, you gain XP fast enough to not really notice the loss, and you have pretty free access to sorcerers with the appropriate spells. Swapping out five of your six orb spells costs 4,000 XP, a nontrivial figure at mid levels where getting better 4ths has the biggest impact, and there's no guarantee you can find sorcerers with the spells you want who'd be willing to trade. So it's an incredibly useful tool for getting some utility on your list, but a sorcerer-replacer it is not.


Out of the box the warmage has accesses to every damage type and lots of different status affects that end up being save or suck/save or loose. Starting with second level spells they start getting battle field control spells like Pyrotechnics then stinking cloud, sleet storm, wall of fire and so forth. Just a quick look through their spell list should already push them out of tier 4, they are just as capable on a battle field as your ToB classes and that is before you start diving into advanced learning/eclectic learning or adding in meta magic feats or other feats that add more spells to your list.

First of all, they do have a few utility spells, like Shatter. Also, they have Advanced/Eclectic Learning, which can snag Polymorph and/or the Shadow spells for greatly improved versatility, and one or two feats can add a whole new dimension to the character, be it mental control or buffing. Also, even if you ignore all of that, compare a Warmage to a quintessential T4 class, like Barbarian. It's just better.

Being comparable to the ToB classes and better than the barbarian doesn't necessarily make the warmage T3. It still contributes to encounters in the form of "XdY damage of type Z in area W" 95% of the time, and a handful of utilities spells gained 2-4 levels late doesn't necessarily negate the "often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" portion of the T4 definition because even a very broad spell like polymorph or shadow conjuration is still just one spell.

ToB classes are at the very low end of T3 and mostly make the cut due to having good utility through their maneuvers (flight, teleportation, invisibility, speed boosts...) and can access more than just handful of those and better skill lists than most T4s (having social, knowledge, and perception skills where most T4s, including the warmage, have shorter and narrower lists). If anything, I'd personally knock the ToB classes down to T4 before I bumped the warmage up to T3; being among the best melee-focused martial classes published still makes them melee-focused martial classes, and their utility and versatility pales in comparison to the most solidly T3 gishy types, the Psychic Warrior Trickster Spellthief.

[Troacctid]

Can somebody explain to me how the Warmage (the class not the class plus all the PrCs plus feast that expand on what the class is) is tier 3.. let alone how they are tier 2?


I understand text over table rainbow servant can get them tier 2. Bu that is not the warmage.

The warmage to me is a very VERY solid tier 4. Which is as follows:

basically 90% of what a warmage can do is roll a Xd6s in Y shape doing Z energy damage. Warmae edge is pointless after the first 3 or so levels, and I was completely of the understanding that the class tiers were independant of optimization and prestige classes and other additional options does not make the CLASS a higher tier but the character?

I could be wrong, i just thought that was how the tier system worked.
The short answer is that even under JaronK's flawed definitions, warmages are good at multiple things, are very difficult to render useless, and frequently outshine weaker characters. For the longer version, here's the explanation from "Why Each Class Is In Its Tier":

Warmage is one of the best classes in the game for sheer damage output. With a wide selection of blasting and battlefield control spells, some free metamagic, a flat damage bonus to all spells, and the ability to learn a small handful of sorcerer/wizard spells via advanced learning and/or eclectic learning, you have an incredibly potent combat toolbox at your fingertips. What keeps the class out of T2 is essentially overspecialization. When you're in a fight, warmages have tons of options and can adapt to almost any combat scenario. When you're not in a fight...well, you probably don't have much to do. It's almost the opposite problem of the bard, actually!

The upside of being specc’ed for combat is that combat is the biggest and most important part of most games, which means in practice, it's a smaller drawback than you might think. So the question was really T2 or T3. Proponents of T2 argued that at higher optimization levels, the warmage will be expanding her spell list to include broken spells (including with the native advanced learning and eclectic learning abilities), thus keeping pace with the sorcerer; and at lower optimization levels, the warmage will often be flat-out better than a sorcerer, at least until very high levels. Furthermore, warmages are at their best in the level 6–12 range, which happens to be the range that should get the most weight in these rankings. And when you do a head-to-head comparison with some of the weaker T2s like spirit shaman and favored soul, it's not uncommon for warmage to come out ahead for the majority of levels, even if it’s clearly behind the beguiler and dread necromancer. Proponents of T3 argued that while the class is great at mid-levels, the spell list tapers off sharply at high levels, and furthermore, the heavy combat focus actually makes martial adepts like the warblade and crusader the closer comparison.

One thing even the T3 side agreed on was that warmage probably has more upward mobility than any other T3 class, and can definitely break the barrier into T2 in the hands of a skilled optimizer—whether by list expansion to improve versatility, or by vertical optimization for a mailman-style build. And while it ultimately landed in T3, it's still one of the best classes in the tier.
It's very hard to get dragonblood spell-pact on a warmage, by the way. Since it's not eligible for eclectic learning, you need something like recaster or wyrm wizard.

[NigelWalmsley]

The Warmage seems pretty obviously about as good as Warblade or Binder on the face of things, and there are enough tricks to pick up utility spells that you're going to get to do something. It seems pretty obviously T3. Though, frankly, I'm not super convinced T4 exists for much reason beyond "JaronK's original list had six tiers". I think you really only need four. maybe three if you're not trying to rank NPC classes too.


And DSP only makes warmages better sorcerers if you start swapping out most of your list, you gain XP fast enough to not really notice the loss, and you have pretty free access to sorcerers with the appropriate spells.

You don't need to swap out most of your list. If you swap out one top level spell every level, that's as many top level spells as the Sorcerer is getting. The rest is true, but it's the same basic set of constraints that StP Erudites operate under, and those are generally considered better than the Sorcerer.


It's very hard to get dragonblood spell-pact on a warmage, by the way. Since it's not eligible for eclectic learning, you need something like recaster or wyrm wizard.

It's a spell that swaps spells around. Getting it on a Warmage is only marginally harder than using it as a Warmage.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Though, frankly, I'm not super convinced T4 exists for much reason beyond "JaronK's original list had six tiers". I think you really only need four. maybe three if you're not trying to rank NPC classes too.

There's definitely a place for a 6-tier system, I'd say. Tier systems for D&D aren't about helping players determine the "best" classes (or at least aren't usually intended that way), but rather are a tool to help DMs account for classes that are above or below the average power level so they can challenge parties appropriately. In that context, you care about two things: Is a given class too powerful, not powerful enough, or in between? and How far apart are a class's best-cast and worst-case scenarios?--that is, is a class "narrow" (very good at certain things, very bad at everything else, so their level of contribution is highly situational) or "broad" (not especially bad at anything, but not amazing at anything either, so their level of contribution is fairly consistent)? And that basically maps to tiers like this:

BroadNarrow
OverpoweredTier 1Tier 2
Just RightTier 3Tier 4
UnderpoweredTier 5Tier 6

This closely resembles JaronK's system (T1s do everything, T2s do anything, T3s are well-rounded, T4s are focused, T5s can only do one thing, T6s can't do anything), the main difference being that JaronK's equivocates about power and versatility in T3 and T4--both are "Capable of doing one thing quite well" with some notion of being less able in other areas, and "does everything but not as well as specialists" and "does everything reasonably without shining" both mean basically the same thing--so people tend(ed) to move classes they like more up to T3 and classes they like less down to T4, hence the controversy about factotums ("They have endless tricks! T3!" vs. "Iaijutsu Focus is not a class feature! T4!"), warlocks ("They can utility at things all day! T3!" vs. "They're eldritch blast machines with a bit on the side! T4"), warmages ("They're strong and versatile in combat, the one thing D&D cares about! T3!" vs. "A few dozen variations on fireball with no utility is weaksauce! T4!"), and so on. In a more rigorously-defined context, classifying a class as T4 as opposed to T3 or T5 could actually be useful information for a DM or potential player.


You don't need to swap out most of your list. If you swap out one top level spell every level, that's as many top level spells as the Sorcerer is getting. The rest is true, but it's the same basic set of constraints that StP Erudites operate under, and those are generally considered better than the Sorcerer.

The former is definitely true, but again, it comes down to availability. When your warmage hits level 8, he's stuck without polymorph or shadow conjuration or whatever until he can find a willing sorcerer who knows those spells to swap with--and he has no chance of swapping anything under his own power until he swaps a spell for DSP or gets an item of it, either of which is impossible (swapping) or unlikely (finding an item) before level 10ish, whereas blasting starts to lose its shine several levels before and lack of utility is a problem starting at low levels.

For the latter, StP Erudites and Archivists are usually highly overrated in theoretical discussions because people conflate their ceiling (free access to any spell they want, plenty of downtime to learn/scribe all the spells they want, etc.) with the average case (hunting down casters with the exact right spells is hard and time-consuming, buying lots of power stones or scrolls is really expensive, many adventures are time-sensitive, etc.). In a high-op campaign with sufficient downtime and easy access to lots of casters or items, yeah, warmage >> sorcerer, but that's the best-cast scenario; the less optimistic case is that warmages can probably swap out a handful of their less-than-top-level spells over the course of their career, in which case the sorcerer still clearly comes out on top.

[NigelWalmsley]

And that basically maps to tiers like this:

BroadNarrow
OverpoweredTier 1Tier 2
Just RightTier 3Tier 4
UnderpoweredTier 5Tier 6

It seems to me that if you need a 2D presentation to explain what your rankings are doing, what you actually have is two separate ranking systems. And that's totally fine, there is in fact more than one way you might want to rank classes, but you're not helping things by taking the Cartesian Cross of the rankings you care about and trying to linearize it. You just end up with a system that is confusing for no reason.


For the latter, StP Erudites and Archivists are usually highly overrated in theoretical discussions

I would basically agree. But if we're working in a framework where those classes are considered top-tier because we ignore the problems they have, clearly we should extend the same consideration to other classes.

[liquidformat]

There's definitely a place for a 6-tier system, I'd say. Tier systems for D&D aren't about helping players determine the "best" classes (or at least aren't usually intended that way), but rather are a tool to help DMs account for classes that are above or below the average power level so they can challenge parties appropriately. In that context, you care about two things: Is a given class too powerful, not powerful enough, or in between? and How far apart are a class's best-cast and worst-case scenarios?--that is, is a class "narrow" (very good at certain things, very bad at everything else, so their level of contribution is highly situational) or "broad" (not especially bad at anything, but not amazing at anything either, so their level of contribution is fairly consistent)? And that basically maps to tiers like this:
.
.
.
.

I actually don't think it is very helpful as a standard DM, doesn't matter if a wizard is a tier 1 if the player in control of it has no clue what they are doing and ends up playing a wizard at the equivalent of the definition of tier 4 or 5. Similar if the cleric is just going full healbot with no other real use from spells again they aren't living up to their potential. Or taking a classical example if you druid spends the whole game throwing scimitars around she isn't living up to her potential. At the same time having a dungeon crasher fighter and Agame paladin, and a lockdown monk in the same party and for all intense and purposes all your Tier 1s are looking like tier 5 and all your tier 4s are making a strong tier 2 or 3 argument.
In the end understanding the tier system just gives a normal DM an idea of where the baseline is and how powerful the classes could potentially be but understanding the players themselves is how they determine the level of power needed to properly challenge the group.

Where the tier system really comes online is homebrewing fixes for high powered groups or making and adjusting classes.

[Kalkra]

Okay, this build is a bit contorted, and I'm sure there's an easier way to do it, but here goes.

1. Get Protection from Evil on you spell list.
2. Get Southern Magician, or some equivalent.
3. Take 4 levels of Prestige Paladin.
4. Get Arcane Preparation.
5. Get Sword of the Arcane Order.

You can now cast any Wizard (or Paladin) spell. Whether or not you need Arcane Preparation is something to hash out with your GM, but even if you do, you're basically a Wizard, but better.

[NigelWalmsley]

That seems pretty sketchy to me on a lot of levels.

You're spending like four feats on your trick (Southern Magician + Mounted Combat + Sword of the Arcane Order + Arcane Preparation, plus maybe another feat to get Protection From Evil), you're dependent on setting-specific material (fortunately it's just the one setting), and you lose either two or four caster levels (depending on if your DM lets Prestige Paladin advance Warmage), and your trick doesn't come online until 12th level because you need to get +4 BAB out of a poor BAB class to get into Prestige Paladin. Also I think arguably Prestige Paladin doesn't qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order.

And then the payoff is that you can learn Wizard spells for money. If we're talking about that level of optimization, why not be an early-entry Rainbow Servant, which gets the entire Cleric list for free somewhere between 11th and 14th level and loses no caster levels?

[Troacctid]

It doesn't work for multiple reasons.

1. Prestige paladin can't advance warmage casting because, even with Southern Magician, it's not a divine spellcasting class.
2. You don't have paladin spell slots because prestige paladin advances the spellcasting of an existing class rather than granting its own casting.
3. You wouldn't get access to all paladin spells, only to paladin-exclusive spells.

Even if it did work, it's just a weaker, more convoluted version of MotAO.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. expanding the Warmage list, the easy way to do this is via Apprentice[Spellcaster] + Channel Charge. This technique works from level 9+ and effectively makes any spell for which you can get a charged item castable at one higher level. Using early entry, you could plausibly do this from level 6+. Caveats about access to items are valid but some item access is certainly common throughout a campaign.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It seems to me that if you need a 2D presentation to explain what your rankings are doing, what you actually have is two separate ranking systems. And that's totally fine, there is in fact more than one way you might want to rank classes, but you're not helping things by taking the Cartesian Cross of the rankings you care about and trying to linearize it. You just end up with a system that is confusing for no reason.

My point was that that's already the logic the existing 6-tier system is using and people seem to find that system useful and explicable, the only real confusion or debate about rankings is around the T3/T4 boundary and rephrasing things slightly to make the logic more apparent clears that right up.

Which isn't to say that a 3- or 4-tier system couldn't be better and/or clearer--especially if you're banning or homebrewing classes to narrow the range--just that sticking with a 6-tier system isn't pointless mimicry as you implied.


I would basically agree. But if we're working in a framework where those classes are considered top-tier because we ignore the problems they have, clearly we should extend the same consideration to other classes.

The difference between the two is that dragonblood spell-pact doesn't factor into the Warmage's tier placement at all because the tiers only consider things that the class can do under its own power and ignores "shared" things like feats, PrCs, or in this case necessary assistance from other classes. The Erudite and Archivist can natively go around grabbing tons of spells, can start doing so on their own, and are the only classes that can do their respective things; the Warmage can't natively use DSP and has to rely on a sorcerer to get the process started, and the Beguiler and Dread Necro can do the same trick while being more powerful and versatile classes to start with.



I actually don't think it is very helpful as a standard DM, doesn't matter if a wizard is a tier 1 if the player in control of it has no clue what they are doing and ends up playing a wizard at the equivalent of the definition of tier 4 or 5. Similar if the cleric is just going full healbot with no other real use from spells again they aren't living up to their potential. Or taking a classical example if you druid spends the whole game throwing scimitars around she isn't living up to her potential. At the same time having a dungeon crasher fighter and Agame paladin, and a lockdown monk in the same party and for all intense and purposes all your Tier 1s are looking like tier 5 and all your tier 4s are making a strong tier 2 or 3 argument.
In the end understanding the tier system just gives a normal DM an idea of where the baseline is and how powerful the classes could potentially be but understanding the players themselves is how they determine the level of power needed to properly challenge the group.

Remember, the premise of the tier system assumes equal skill across the board when setting its floors and ceilings; optimizing a T5 and sandbagging a T1 doesn't make those classes T3 because those are individual characters and tiers are about classes. But if you do have T4s being played to maximum potential by 3e veterans and T1s played by folks who don't know what they're doing, the tier system is still useful for the DM to know because it just takes one "Hey, I know you like cold blasting spells, but tomorrow morning before we head into the dungeon you might want to consider..." from the paladin's player to the druid's player to completely change things up, while the paladin is stuck with whatever it's doing at least until the next level-up.


Where the tier system really comes online is homebrewing fixes for high powered groups or making and adjusting classes.

This is definitely true. As mentioned above, if you're houseruling classes it's easy to effectively shrink the number of tiers you actually care about by powering up T6s and T5s and nerfing T1s and T2s. I personally disagree with the "T3 is the best, everything should be made T3" argument since I'd prefer more variety even at the cost of theoretical balance, but if your goal is very close class parity than tier systems are invaluable for that.

[Troacctid]

My point was that that's already the logic the existing 6-tier system is using and people seem to find that system useful and explicable, the only real confusion or debate about rankings is around the T3/T4 boundary and rephrasing things slightly to make the logic more apparent clears that right up.
No, the existing 6-tier system is a straightforward ranking of power. That's why classes like spirit shaman, urban druid, death master, and erudite are T2, despite their versatility. You should really read over "Why each class is in its tier" again. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!

[radthemad4]

A decent list expansion technique is getting a PrC domain (Rainbow Servant is the easiest) and then either casting (via Extra Spell or whatever) or UMDing Substitute Domain (Complete Champion, p. 128) to swap it out

[RedMage125]

No, the existing 6-tier system is a straightforward ranking of power. That's why classes like spirit shaman, urban druid, death master, and erudite are T2, despite their versatility. You should really read over "Why each class is in its tier" again. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!

I would say it ranks "power and versatility", because versatility is a consideration for Tier standing. But Power is slightly more important, because being able to chose among many mediocre actions in play is not as good as having 2 really good ones. But versatility is still important for ranking, as it is basically the distinction between Tier 1 and Tier 2. If you think about it, Tier 2 is barely a distinct Tier by itself. But Tier 1 classes are SO powerful, that the classes that can do any, but not all of the things that Tier 1 can do are still above a Tier 3. So I would say the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is versatility, but only because POWER sets both them above other Tiers.

EDIT: removed the rest of this post, because it more properly belonged to the discussion in the thread Troacctid linked. I copy/pasted the whole thing there.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

No, the existing 6-tier system is a straightforward ranking of power. That's why classes like spirit shaman, urban druid, death master, and erudite are T2, despite their versatility. You should really read over "Why each class is in its tier" again. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!

No, the tier system specifically defines the T1/T2 and T3/T4 boundaries in terms of versatility (T2 is literally defined as "as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks" and both T3 and T4 are "Capable of doing one thing quite well" but T3 is "capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area" while T4 is "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining") and the T2/T3 and T4/T5 boundaries in terms of power ("raw power" and "campaign smashers" vs. "doing one thing quite well" in the former case, "doing one thing quite well" vs. "doing one thing, and not necessarily all that well" in the latter).

That's why retiering threads often have people rank e.g. the spirit shaman anywhere from low T1 to high T3 and the warmage between low T3 and high T4, because the former sits in an awkward place where it simultaneously has more versatility and less power than many T2s so it kinda sorta fits the T1/T2/T3 definitions, while the latter's "versatility" depends on how you weight combat. If the tier system were truly a one-dimensional ranking of power then there wouldn't be either/or statements in the tier definitions and you wouldn't see nearly as much controversy about where certain classes fit.

[Troacctid]

No, the tier system specifically defines the T1/T2 and T3/T4 boundaries in terms of versatility (T2 is literally defined as "as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks" and both T3 and T4 are "Capable of doing one thing quite well" but T3 is "capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area" while T4 is "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining") and the T2/T3 and T4/T5 boundaries in terms of power ("raw power" and "campaign smashers" vs. "doing one thing quite well" in the former case, "doing one thing quite well" vs. "doing one thing, and not necessarily all that well" in the latter).

That's why retiering threads often have people rank e.g. the spirit shaman anywhere from low T1 to high T3 and the warmage between low T3 and high T4, because the former sits in an awkward place where it simultaneously has more versatility and less power than many T2s so it kinda sorta fits the T1/T2/T3 definitions, while the latter's "versatility" depends on how you weight combat. If the tier system were truly a one-dimensional ranking of power then there wouldn't be either/or statements in the tier definitions and you wouldn't see nearly as much controversy about where certain classes fit.
The class tier list is explicitly intended to rank classes by power level, not to categorize them based on shared traits. It's right there in JaronK's original five-point mission statement. The reason there are either/or statements like the ones you mentioned is because the tiers are a straightforward ranking of power (which, by the way, also includes versatility, as it is a form of power), and certain trends emerged as similar classes clustered together. "As much raw power as the T1s, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks" is a descriptive observation of a shared trait among the classes that were initially rated in that power band—not a requirement.

[New Shadow]

Speaking as someone who has played a Warmage before, there are things you need to know before building one.

1. The rules of the campaign:
Is the campaign Low-magic, High-magic, or somewhere in between? What books are allowed? What house rules are being applied? Are you playing in a gestalt campaign? All of these need to be answered before making a Warmage.

2. What the DM is most or least likely to say no to/rule 0:
Know your DM. The less complex a character build is, the more experienced you are as a player, and/or the less books your DM has to hunt through, the more likely they are to say yes to your idea.

3. What classes the other players are playing:
Take a look around the table. What kinds of players you are gaming with can also dictate what roles/PrCs/feats you can play/take. If your party is made up of the traditional 4 plus you(aka fighter, cleric, wizard/sorc., and rogue/spellthief/etc. type), than playing Rainbow Servant just isn't going to happen. Mainly, because the 'role' of cleric is already taken by someone else. If you are in a party with a bunch of characters who have melee specialties, than the DM may cut you some slack, as you may wind up magic support if the DM doesn't make a NPC to cover that role.


Remember, the Role of the Warmage(in my own opinion) is to find the target and blast it through death's door with as much force you think it needs. There are many paths to power; increasing the number of spells is only one. I'll go back and edit this post later as more info is pointed out/I think of it, but for now, on with the discussion.

Speaking of, let's get the the obvious path of increasing the spells you can cast out of the way. Troacctid named a few classes, but they have a major drawback or two: 1, four of the classes listed require you to be Evil(or at least non-good), which can be a problem if one of your fellow players is a Paladin or similar class, or being in a party of good guy characters in general; 2, most of the rest tie you to a specific organization or geographic location (ex Incantrix) that your DM may have to find a way to include, causing them more work, and causing them to have less fun. Further more, you get one less 9th level spell per day than Sorc.s get, even though prior to level 20 you have the same limits as a Sorc does, so casting all of the Spells isn't going to be possible at all times. Arcane Disciple from Complete Divine gives you access to domain spells, but not the domain power; in addition, you are locked to the alignment of the god providing the domain and needing the appropriate level of WIS to cast the domain spells, introducing more MAD problems that the Warmage already has.

Now, that's not to say there aren't good PrCs that can help with that, Divine Oracle from Complete Divine and Sandshaper from Sandstorm are two that come to my mind. Again though, the less work your DM has to do, the more like they are to say no. For example, Divine Oracle has no organization, but gives you access to 9 divination spells, Uncanny dodge and its improved form(IIRC), and a version of evasion that works in armor up to full plate as the capstone. As it isn't that overpowered, the DM has a decent chance of saying yes. Point is, look for things that will augment your role as the Keeper of the Boom, and not give you new ones while overwriting what the Warmage is supposed to be.

The second path is cross classing, and the dual-class PrCs that can come with them. That said, there are two types of Cross Class/Dual class PrCs: ones that you can take during the first 20 levels, and those who you need to be epic level to use properly. We'll get to those in a minute, as there are a few things we need to cover first, some of which are fairly obvious.

To start, bear these things in mind:
1. Warmages can only afford to lose two levels of casting pre-epic and still cast 9th Level Spells
2. most dual casting classes require three levels of the opposite class to meet requirements
3. Some classes that aren't a fit for a Sorc or Wiz can easily work for you, if you wish to burn the feats/skill points
4. Some classes (basic or PrC) only work best in gestalt format

Now, on to the examples:
1. Pre-Epic dual PrCs

This list is rather small, but it can be worth checking out. So here it goes:

1. Soulcaster (Magic of Incarnum, additional references in Dragon Magic) : There are a few MoI guides here on the forums, so I won't go into too much detail here. At first glance, it isn't that much. Most of the utility comes from the Incarnum class you used to enter this PrC, of which two are of viable benefit: Incarnate(the caster equivalent) and Totemist(Druid equivalent). Each has their own list of Soulmelds that act as unique boosts. Since you are a Warmage first and formost, use these lists defensive abilities and save the Soulmeld fuel called Incarnum for things that will give you various resistances you can't really get without some kinds of PrCs, using Templates, or some serious cross classing. Downside is that many of the best boosts are in the Incarnate class(in my own opinion), and that class locks you into being either LN, CN, NG, or NE to keep your powers.

2. Unseen seer(Complete Mage) : The longer one of a few 'dual-class' PrCs that isn't going to irritate your DM. Especially if you have no sneaky-type characters (NPC or otherwise) in the player roster. Technically you can enter this class without a level in any Rogue-like class, but then you miss out on adding sneak attack dice to your arsenal, martial or spell (see the sections on using 'weapon-like spells'(such as, say, scorching ray and other similar spells(assuming I recall correctly) and sneak attack dice in the same book or in general). Add in adding three Divination spell to your list for free(even if they weren't on an arcane list to begin with), and a very generous skill list(even though your skill points are 2+INT), and you're good to go.

Downside is that you loose 3 caster levels (even though it is a 10/10 spell casting boosting class) due to an effect that boosts your Divination spells by three levels. IE: a full caster with a casting level of 20 with all ten levels of this class would be able to cast Divination Spells at level 23(ignoring 'casting spells at levels above HD' restrictions), but only being able to cast everything else as though you were level 17. The Practiced Spellcaster feat in the same book(I think) negates this problem by boosting CLs by 4 for one class, so grab it to cause fewer problems.

A typical build uses Spellthief 1/Warmage (or any other Arcane class)4 as a starting point, because of the feat Master Spellthief in Complete Scoundrel(aka Spellthief and the arcane class you qualified for the feat with count for each others CLs(but not Spell Knowledge. If the DM rules otherwise for whatever reason, get ready to grab the Combat Casting feat and use an abjuration spell from Spellthief to go Abjurant Champion), in addition to other benefits).

Divination Spells you want to grab:
Hunter's Eye(PH2) : +1 sneak attack die per 3 CL for one round. Stacks with any SA dice you have, but works without having any just as well.
Gravestrike(Pal/Cleric)/Golemstrike(Sorc/Wiz)/Vinestrike(Druid spell list)(Complete Adventurer or Scoundrel(Can't remember)) : allows you to crit/sneak attack undead/golems/plants respectively. Talk to your DM about what creatures you'll be facing in the future, and get weapons enchanted with the other spells in case things go wrong.
Healer's Vision(SpC, I think) : A Cleric/Assassin spell, this one gives you the choice of either helping you or others heal slightly better or boosts your sneak attack damage or accuracy(can't remember which of the later two choices it is)

There are other spells, and I'll edit those in as suggested. You could cap this off by going Arcane Trickster by getting the once-per-day feat to use the prereq.s as spell-like abilities, but if you're not going Epic, I'd suggest the next class instead.

3. Abjurant Champion(Complete Mage) : 5 levels of d10 HD, full BaB, only needing a Abjuration Spell on your list, Combat Casting, and a Martial Weapon Prof feat to qualify, if you can find a way to get Shield or Shield of Faith on your Spell list(Ab Champ adds level to Ab spells that boost AC), your life as a Warmage gets quite easier. More towards the quintessential Warmage intro pic in Complete Arcane, too. Point is, if you can find a way to get this class, take it.

If you're willing to wait to level 10 for the BaB requirement, Dragonslayer from Draconomicon gives you all of the martial weapon profs a Fighter class has just for entering it, making qualifying for this class all the easier.

4. Dragonslayer(Draconomicon) While this class is one of two that I'm going to mention here that actually better belong in the section 'PrCs to take/complete if you're going epic,' you can still take either the first or the first five levels of the class and still be able to cast 9th level spells, albeit at CL 18. Still, Immunity to Fear, 5 d10 HD, and resistance 5 to all non-Force, Positive, or Negative energy sources is nothing to sneeze at, let alone all Martial Weapon Prof.s just for joining. While upgrading your martial skills a significant amount(particularly if you take 5 levels of Ab Champ to finish off the build), you're still the Keeper of the Boom at heart here.

5. Swiftblade ( found at: https : / / web . archive . org /web/ 2 0 1 90301 2 1 5717/ http : / / archive .wizards .com / default . asp? x= dnd / prc / 2 0 0 70327 ) : The Second of the prior mentioned classes, a 6/10 casting class, you'll only be able to take six levels and still cast 9th level spells. The prereq.s are steep, not going to lie, but if you can get your DM to sign off on the class, it is quite the Martial Powerhouse.

Now we move on to number 2:
The dual PrCs you should take post epic, in no order of importance:

1 & 2: Dragonslayer and Swiftblade: Already dicussed. Look up various Gish/Arcane Warrior threads for more details.

3. Noctumancer (Tome of Magic) : Turn Spells you counter into more boom. That, and the versatility of abilities and spells that enemy non-Nocutumancers take a -4 or 5 penalty to ID or counterspell can make a significant difference, particularly the creators of the class upgraded/'fixed' form. Either way, the Shadowcaster half already runs on a combo of INT and CHA like the Warmage does, so no additional MAD headaches will be forthcoming.

4. Eldritch Theurge (Complete Mage) : The Warlock-Arcane class Combo, giving you Warlock versatility via Invocations. One of the biggest selling points beyond that? The ability to stick your spells in the Eldritch Blast, and combo that with blast shaping Invocations... :) ; while the book doesn't say either way, ask your DM if the spells can be meta-magiced, because if they can, well... Pain and suffering takes on a whole new meaning. Plus, there are a few dispelling Invocations, so you can dispel as you blast(with Spells, not EB).

5. Mind Mage (Dragon Magazine #313) : Can/should be combined with Cerebremancer from XPH for serious/maximum psionic shenanigans, with a few guides that can be found here on this site or around the Net to explain further details. To make things more awesome? Combine with the last two previously mentioned classes (and Cerebremancer to keep the CL/ML up), and you have the potential to be quite the nasty customer. Remember though, Psionics ML can't go past 20 without certain tricks, so concentrate on powers that, with certain exceptions (looking at you, Swarm of Crystals), boost you and others, not be direct damage attacks. Throw in Soulcaster and its Psionic equivalent for even more tricks to play, if you choose.

There are certainly others, but these are my personal favorites to play to try out. Give them a whirl yourself! Now, on to Gestalt, classes and PRCs:

First off, base classes:

1. Fighter: While many bits of convention wisdom I've read over the years state that it is a class you dip into, I'd like to very much disagree. Getting a free feat from a large, limited list at first level and every even level afterwards is nothing to turn your nose up at, especially if the game is playing with custom rules like getting feats at every odd level as opposed to their normal placement.

2. Psychic Warrior (XPH) : Not a bad second place due to the number of feats, though going to a lower HD than Fighter for Psionic powers isn't a bad choice. If you can get the variant PsyWar that gets an Ardent Mantle at second Level(aka Complete Psionics version of Psionic Domains, for lack of a better term), more power and versatility to you.

3. Duskblade (PH2) : Mainly INT focused caster with full BaB, it has a few things that can help on the Marital end of the Warmage. There's a reason that Duskblade 13/Warmind 7 is a classic combo; adding it to the Warmage means you're not as in trouble in melee as someone who went two Tier 1 classes on both sides.

If you choose to go this path, try ending it with Sliver Pyromancer from the Eberron book 5 Nations, and add Paladin Spells to your Duskblade list, and keep using your DB Lv 1-4 Known Spells for something. But wait, you say, that requires turn undead. Allow me to transition to my next choice then.

4. Ranger: You thought I was going to say Paladin, didn't you? Problem is, many people find the Oath an issue to uphold, depending on DM interpretation and the actions of their party members. The easy solution, if DM allowed? Ranger 5/Knight of the Raven 3(Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). The PrC gives you access to TU and the Sun Domain, opening the door to many PrCs thought locked to a Ranger. If you choose the Urban Ranger variant, even more doors open, as Detect Evil is on the Spell List of this variant. So PrCs like Shadowbane Inquistor or Shadowbane Stalker, to name a few(yes, I know they are not great PrCs in many peoples opinion, but they are available as an example).

5. The 'Blade Magic' classes (Tome of Battle) : 'Blade Magic,' or Maneuvers and Stances, give 9 different styles of versatility for a Warmage. The dual-casting arcane class, however, is not the greatest, in my own opinion, hence why I did not suggest it earlier. There is also a build named after a ToB PrC called Master of 9 on the briliant gameologists site I suggest you grab, as it combines all of the base classes in ToB to make it. If you can get your DM to sign off on the build, grab it.

6. Paladin: Reasoning mentioned above, but mentioned for completeness.

You may be wondering why I don't include higher tier classes or why I'm heavily focusing on what the Wamage Lacks. The reason is simple. Aside from taking Favored Soul on the other side, the main reason I'm doing this is because, aside from Keep of the Boom, the Warmage's other role is the caster that can wear full plate and kill people in melee, while setting people on fire. I'd go into more detail, but my computer fan isn't working very well, so I'll go into more detail in part two, along with PrCs you should be choosing in gestalt pre/post epic, as well as what feat beyond Maximize spell you'll need to make you Warmage awesome. The problem is also why I haven't linked any handbooks for any of the classes mentioned in this post.

Bear in mind, this is based on my own opinions, so please keep this in mind as you read this.

Other than that, have fun, and good gaming! I hope what I've given you thus far is helpful in your quest.