Building a WARMAGE - Help

[Mescalinic]

Hi everyone. :)

Long story short, as a (still) terrible noob, I knew pretty much nothing about the Warmage class, except that it was considered pretty lackluster (actually, often pretty bad) by a lot o people in multiple forums, handbooks, and so on.

Now, I was just reading the thread "Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!" (lots of interesting stuff in there, really) and I was surprised to read that, contrary to those opinions, the class is considered pretty "solid" and capable of doing great things.

My problem is... it is probably the only class I can't seem to finda ANY "updated" guide-handbook-topic to start understanding how to build one.

Every handbooks/topic I've found is actually quite old (and everyone of those clearly state that the Warmage kinda sucks) or extremely specific, but nothing about "how to build a Warmage 1.0"

Can you people point me towards some good, recent, "updated" materials to start understanding and building the class? Thank you :)

[JNAProductions]

To be fair, even old guides can be quite useful. It's not like 3.5 has been getting updates lately, eh? :P

[Kalkra]

Rainbow Servant, Sand Shaper, Prestige Bard if you want, etc. You can get a pretty good Warmage even without all that, if you only want to blast (although you'd probably be better off with a Sorcerer for a straight damage build).

[ngilop]

The War Mage prestige class from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals bumps the power of the Warmage class up a notch in the warmage's main (and subpar) schtick. Couple that with a way to expand the spell list, like the above mention sand shaper or wyrm wizard and it comes out pretty solid.

[Troacctid]

I've been working on a warmage handbook in the vein of my Warlockopedia. Here's what I have so far:

Introduction
Spells
Advanced learning
Feats
Prestige classes
Itemization
Sample builds

It's still a work in progress, but hopefully this helps!

[Kalkra]

I've been working on a warmage handbook in the vein of my Warlockopedia. Here's what I have so far:

Introduction
Spells
Advanced learning
Feats
Prestige classes
Itemization

It's still a work in progress, but hopefully this helps!

And here I foolishly thought that making an index of all the casting classes would be enough for you. Who knew you were going to make handbooks for them all too?

[liquidformat]

Well I used to have a really nice handbook for warmages but it apparently got removed the only one I could find is RPGBOT's and to be frank their handbooks suck...
Anyways the warmage isn't all bad it just takes some effort. Back in the day in fact there were some low level dungeon run competitions and warmages blew everything else out of the water. The real issue is they are great if you have a set level range you are looking at like 1-5 6-9 10-20 but are rough to make work well 1-20 especially without retaining.
Here is a quick and dirty guide:

For starters in low level games Warmage Edge is pretty amazing and if you are only planning to go up to around level 5 anyways building around Warmage Edge with high int score and blasting is a great strategy. However, after ~level 5 the damage of spells themselves far outpaces the bonuses from Warmage Edge so unless you are sure you aren't going above say level 5 in your campaign it is better to keep int somewhat low.

For low level campaigns I would put stats: Int<Con=Dex<Cha<Wis<Str
For standard warmage Cha<Con=Dex<Wis<Int<Str
Race choices tend to be similar to the suggestions for Beguilers, Dread Necromancer, Bard, and Sorcerer

The Eclectic learning ACF(PHBII) is mandatory there is no reason not to use

RPGBOT's feat section is pretty decent only a couple of things to add Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus are quite good for warmages since pretty much all their spells will be Evocation. If retraining is on the table reserve feats are very good for warmages(AFB so will give suggestions later). Though you don't have Knowledge (Religion) as skill Arcane Disciple is a good feat choice to help broaden your spell list.

For PRCs the best ones to choose are ones that expand your spell list so Snad Shaper is a great choice even though the skill requirements suck, Rainbow Servant is always nice even better if the dm lets it be full casting, also Mage of the Arcane Order though entry requires taking Arcane Preparation.

[Troacctid]

For low level campaigns I would put stats: Int<Con=Dex<Cha<Wis<Str
For standard warmage Cha<Con=Dex<Wis<Int<Str

I'm assuming your arrows are backwards. Either way, this is wrong; Wis should be your dump stat, not Strength. Strength is used for melee spells like chill touch, while Wisdom isn't used for anything.

RPGBOT's feat section is pretty decent only a couple of things to add Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus are quite good for warmages since pretty much all their spells will be Evocation. If retraining is on the table reserve feats are very good for warmages(AFB so will give suggestions later). Though you don't have Knowledge (Religion) as skill Arcane Disciple is a good feat choice to help broaden your spell list.

Warmage spells are a mix of evocation and conjuration with some necromancy. Most of the spells that require saving throws for any effect other than half damage are conjuration, unless you're taking something like shockwave or Boccob's rolling cloud as an advanced learning—but you already said you're on all eclectic learnings. I would not take Spell Focus except as a prerequisite for something like Energy Gestalt or Evoker's Mark. Greater Spell Focus is right out.

For PRCs the best ones to choose are ones that expand your spell list so Snad Shaper is a great choice even though the skill requirements suck, Rainbow Servant is always nice even better if the dm lets it be full casting, also Mage of the Arcane Order though entry requires taking Arcane Preparation.

No respect for incantatrix?

[liquidformat]

I'm assuming your arrows are backwards. Either way, this is wrong; Wis should be your dump stat, not Strength. Strength is used for melee spells like chill touch, while Wisdom isn't used for anything.

Yep got those backward, I normally dump strength with my warmage and stay far away from melee range, I have a familiar for delivering touch attacks normally...

Warmage spells are a mix of evocation and conjuration with some necromancy. Most of the spells that require saving throws for any effect other than half damage are conjuration, unless you're taking something like shockwave or Boccob's rolling cloud as an advanced learning—but you already said you're on all eclectic learnings. I would not take Spell Focus except as a prerequisite for something like Energy Gestalt or Evoker's Mark. Greater Spell Focus is right out.

Fair point, I like making it harder for the enemies to take half damage but that might just be me <("), then again spell focus/greater spell focus are at the low end of feats I ever look at.

No respect for incantatrix?

I have personally never used nor looked at incantatrix and quite a few of the groups I have played with have flat out banned incantatrix so really have no opinion on it either way.

[Kalkra]

Depending on the campaign, War Magic Study (Dragon #309) can be bonkers good, particularly with a Warmage where a compelling case could be made for automatically knowing the War versions of all of your spells.

[Ramza00]

A Runestaff of 3 Useful Spells is all you need to boost a Warmage from Tier 4 to Tier 3. This is because the Warmage already has enough damage spells, plus a few GREAT battlefield control spells that you are useful at all levels of play. Adding 3 or so more spells to your spell list with a Runestaff is enough. Sure you need to use UMD with the staff but you have the spell slots to fuel it.

[liquidformat]

A Runestaff of 3 Useful Spells is all you need to boost a Warmage from Tier 4 to Tier 3. This is because the Warmage already has enough damage spells, plus a few GREAT battlefield control spells that you are useful at all levels of play. Adding 3 or so more spells to your spell list with a Runestaff is enough. Sure you need to use UMD with the staff but you have the spell slots to fuel it.

if 3 spells is all it takes to bump up to Tier 3 than it should already be tier 3 since Eclectic learning ACF would do the same correct?

[Troacctid]

Warmage is already T3.

[Ramza00]

if 3 spells is all it takes to bump up to Tier 3 than it should already be tier 3 since Eclectic learning ACF would do the same correct?

Your logic is sound the problem is quantity.

You only get 4 advanced learnings, they are evocation only (or you can take 1 level lower) and the advanced learnings are levels behind from an ECL standpoint at all levels besides the level 06 one.

Spell Lvl 1 at level 03
Spell Lvl 3 at level 06
Spell Lvl 5 at level 11
Spell Lvl 7 at level 16

These Advanced Learnings help but it is not enough. Adding 3 spell known of your highest or 2nd highest known that you get to choose (for you crafted it with a friend or market or ancestral relic) is enough to change the balance of the class. Adding enough quantity to a class can change it a tier.

Remember also we are bumping Tier 4 to Tier 3, and the definitions of Tiers are not congruent. What is the difference between T3 vs. T4 is not the same as T2 vs. T3

• Tier 4A Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise.
• Tier 4B ..or... capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining.

vs

• Tier 3A: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate.
• Tier 3B: or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.
• 3s also: Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.

So what I am saying is lets say a level 8 build with a Runestaff. A warmage would have 6/6/5/3 base spells before bonus. A charisma of 18 gives you 1/1/1/1 bonus spells so 7/7/6/4 at level 8 and even more if you have a higher charisma.

Buying a Runestaff (not crafting it, not ancestral relic) with a single 4th level spell and then 2 3rd level spells you can use 3x a day would cost you
4x4x200 =(3.2k)+
3x3x200 =(1.8k)+
3x3x200 =(1.8k)=6.8k total or 25.18% your wealth by level

Thus allowing you to do two 3rd level spells 3x a day (so 6 total) and one 4th level spell once per day.

-----

Tier Wise: So what I am saying in another way is spending a feat on Ancestral Relic (allowing you to craft rune staffs at level 3 and not level 12. You then spend 1/4th your wealth by level (except it is really 1/8th your wealth by level for you can convert anything your party does not want to something useful. All for the small price of a feat. You can also change your spell layout for your runestaff each day. A single feat is enough to make a Warmage go up a tier. That or spending a little more money and getting a custom runestaff made.

[Troacctid]

Warmages don't have UMD, so runestaffs aren't even good for them.

[Kalkra]

*Snip*

Instead of Ancestral Relic, you could just take a Bloodline feat, or Arcane Disciple, or something. You get more spells with less hassle. Or you could theurge. I'm personally fond of Mind Mage for blasters, but Ultimate Magus-ing with a Wizard, or the always-reliable ur-Priest theurge can give you all the flexibility you need, without sacrificing much in the way of raw damage.

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, if you use some Duskblade Arcane Channeling-like ability with Chill Touch, what happens? (Other than your GM banning Chill Touch, that is.)

[Ramza00]

Instead of Ancestral Relic, you could just take a Bloodline feat, or Arcane Disciple, or something. You get more spells with less hassle. Or you could theurge. I'm personally fond of Mind Mage for blasters, but Ultimate Magus-ing with a Wizard, or the always-reliable ur-Priest theurge can give you all the flexibility you need, without sacrificing much in the way of raw damage.

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, if you use some Duskblade Arcane Channeling-like ability with Chill Touch, what happens? (Other than your GM banning Chill Touch, that is.)

While Bloodlines are good I like the ability to pick my spells and get multiple spells of the same level. Bloodline you may get 9 spells but sometimes not all 9 of those spells are good and if we are talking lower level play such as level 8 that is only 4 spells known, and it is 1/1/1/1 so on and so on.

Of course the nice thing is you can always do both.

But yeah while Warmage is Tier 4, it quickly becomes Tier 3 just by adding a few more spells known. Now Tier 3 has a lot of levels of play for it means you are capable but not all Tier 3s are equally capable.

Warmages don't have UMD, so runestaffs aren't even good for them.

Forgot about this. Well it is my opinion you should be doing minor houserules now a days anyway. It has been 15 years since Complete Arcane we got a better idea of how to play 3.5 and Pathfinder what balances the game and what inherently unbalances it. Changing some minor things with new information and thousands / millions of plays is completely rational and reasonable.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, it's not T4, though, it's a solid T3. Upper half of the tier, even, with outs to T2.

[NigelWalmsley]

If you really need UMD, there are ways to get it. Runestaff shenanigans are probably good enough that you're justified going for it.

No respect for incantatrix?

Not for a Warmage. What are you going to do, make Fist of Stone last all day? If you have the time to get to the capstone of a 10 level PrC, you are required by law to instead be a Rainbow Servant, and the kinds of spells the Incantatrix is good with have very little overlap with the kinds of spells the Warmage gets. You don't really care about bonus metamagic feats either, because you're a spontaneous caster. The only thing you can really use effectively as a Warmage is Cooperative Metamagic. Which is actually pretty good, but you probably want to prioritizing adding spells your list instead.

[Kalkra]

Not for a Warmage. What are you going to do, make Fist of Stone last all day? If you have the time to get to the capstone of a 10 level PrC, you are required by law to instead be a Rainbow Servant, and the kinds of spells the Incantatrix is good with have very little overlap with the kinds of spells the Warmage gets. You don't really care about bonus metamagic feats either, because you're a spontaneous caster. The only thing you can really use effectively as a Warmage is Cooperative Metamagic. Which is actually pretty good, but you probably want to prioritizing adding spells your list instead.

Incantatrix is nice with cloud/fog type spells, (usually Empowering or Maximizing, rather than Persisting), and Instant Metamagic is always nice. Also, Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat, so you can never have too many bonus metamagic feats.

[Troacctid]

If you really need UMD, there are ways to get it. Runestaff shenanigans are probably good enough that you're justified going for it.



Not for a Warmage. What are you going to do, make Fist of Stone last all day? If you have the time to get to the capstone of a 10 level PrC, you are required by law to instead be a Rainbow Servant, and the kinds of spells the Incantatrix is good with have very little overlap with the kinds of spells the Warmage gets. You don't really care about bonus metamagic feats either, because you're a spontaneous caster. The only thing you can really use effectively as a Warmage is Cooperative Metamagic. Which is actually pretty good, but you probably want to prioritizing adding spells your list instead.

Warmages get fire seeds, which works pretty well with metamagic effect. Also it's a ton of bonus metamagic feats.

[NigelWalmsley]

Incantatrix is nice with cloud/fog type spells, (usually Empowering or Maximizing, rather than Persisting), and Instant Metamagic is always nice. Also, Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat, so you can never have too many bonus metamagic feats.

Empowering a Stinking Cloud the round after you cast it is not better than getting extra utility spells on your list. I'm not saying the Incantatrix is a garbage PrC for a Warmage by any means. It's a full casting PrC that grants you class features that do anything at all. That makes it better than continuing to take Warmage levels, and better than most printed PrCs. But it's not a top-tier PrC for a Warmage in the way that it is for a Wizard.

[Troacctid]

For the record, these are the prestige classes that I rated with five out of five fireballs.

Anima Mage (Improved Bind Vestige entry)
Escalation Mage
Halruaan Elder
Incantatrix
Mage of the Arcane Order
Paragnostic Apostle
Rainbow Servant (text over table version)
Shadow Apostle
Tainted Scholar
Urban Savant

[PairO'Dice Lost]

While Bloodlines are good I like the ability to pick my spells and get multiple spells of the same level. Bloodline you may get 9 spells but sometimes not all 9 of those spells are good and if we are talking lower level play such as level 8 that is only 4 spells known, and it is 1/1/1/1 so on and so on.

If you don't mind being dragonblooded and spending some XP, you can take a [Bloodline] feat that mostly gives the spells you want and use dragonblood spell-pact to swap out the rest for any spells you'd like so long as you can find a suitable trading partner.

But that's definitely on the high-op side, and your DM might be less "Eh, you're a warmage? Go for it" about it than I would.

[Mescalinic]

I've been working on a warmage handbook in the vein of my Warlockopedia. Here's what I have so far:

Introduction
Spells
Advanced learning
Feats
Prestige classes
Itemization

It's still a work in progress, but hopefully this helps!

thank to everyone, and especially to you, that's a sh*t ton of information, I'm gonna study every detail *_*

[NigelWalmsley]

If you don't mind being dragonblooded and spending some XP, you can take a [Bloodline] feat that mostly gives the spells you want and use dragonblood spell-pact to swap out the rest for any spells you'd like so long as you can find a suitable trading partner.

TBF, if you're using Dragonblood Spell-Pact, you don't even really need a Bloodline. You have literally six different orb spells. Trade some of those for Dimension Door or Polymorph. If Dragonblood Spell-Pact is on the table, a Warmage is just a better Sorcerer.

[liquidformat]

While Bloodlines are good I like the ability to pick my spells and get multiple spells of the same level. Bloodline you may get 9 spells but sometimes not all 9 of those spells are good and if we are talking lower level play such as level 8 that is only 4 spells known, and it is 1/1/1/1 so on and so on.

Of course the nice thing is you can always do both.

But yeah while Warmage is Tier 4, it quickly becomes Tier 3 just by adding a few more spells known. Now Tier 3 has a lot of levels of play for it means you are capable but not all Tier 3s are equally capable.



Forgot about this. Well it is my opinion you should be doing minor houserules now a days anyway. It has been 15 years since Complete Arcane we got a better idea of how to play 3.5 and Pathfinder what balances the game and what inherently unbalances it. Changing some minor things with new information and thousands / millions of plays is completely rational and reasonable.

You are honestly making a strong argument that warmage should never have been placed in tier 4 to begin with and that whoever did the tiering eval you are referring to did a very bad job of taking into account feats and equipment characters would standardly use. Perhaps you should instead look at a better evaluating tiering, I personally prefer this retiering.

Anyways the great thing about warmage when compared to beguiler or dread necromancer is you have no real reason to stay in the class so getting into prcs as soon as possible is your best choice.

[ngilop]

Can somebody explain to me how the Warmage (the class not the class plus all the PrCs plus feast that expand on what the class is) is tier 3.. let alone how they are tier 2?


I understand text over table rainbow servant can get them tier 2. Bu that is not the warmage.

The warmage to me is a very VERY solid tier 4. Which is as follows:

Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

basically 90% of what a warmage can do is roll a Xd6s in Y shape doing Z energy damage. Warmae edge is pointless after the first 3 or so levels, and I was completely of the understanding that the class tiers were independant of optimization and prestige classes and other additional options does not make the CLASS a higher tier but the character?

I could be wrong, i just thought that was how the tier system worked.

[stack]

Nitpick: Rainbow servant granting spontaneous casting to the full cleric list would kick you to tier 1, not tier 2, since the cleric list is, in my understanding, a tier 1 list. Not as strong as full wizard casting, but still extremely powerful and versatile.

[liquidformat]

Can somebody explain to me how the Warmage (the class not the class plus all the PrCs plus feast that expand on what the class is) is tier 3.. let alone how they are tier 2?


I understand text over table rainbow servant can get them tier 2. Bu that is not the warmage.

The warmage to me is a very VERY solid tier 4. Which is as follows:

Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

basically 90% of what a warmage can do is roll a Xd6s in Y shape doing Z energy damage. Warmae edge is pointless after the first 3 or so levels, and I was completely of the understanding that the class tiers were independant of optimization and prestige classes and other additional options does not make the CLASS a higher tier but the character?

I could be wrong, i just thought that was how the tier system worked.

Out of the box the warmage has accesses to every damage type and lots of different status affects that end up being save or suck/save or loose. Starting with second level spells they start getting battle field control spells like Pyrotechnics then stinking cloud, sleet storm, wall of fire and so forth. Just a quick look through their spell list should already push them out of tier 4, they are just as capable on a battle field as your ToB classes and that is before you start diving into advanced learning/eclectic learning or adding in meta magic feats or other feats that add more spells to your list.