OOTS #1203 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[factotum]

Almost disappointed Elan didn't do a Dun Dun Dun! when Haley found the bead, but I guess he couldn't have delivered his plot exposition if he'd done that. :smallsmile:

[silversaraph]

Wow, I was reading when it updated. Way to Go!

[Peelee]

The little Therkla was neat.

[rgrekejin]

Belkar has gotten noticeably better at tracking over the years.

[Wraithfighter]

After 30 minutes, Elan realized that the game was, indeed, called "Go". Bardic tradition just forbade him from giving up the spirit of Lou Costello.

.......man, how did Hinjo manage to stay a Paladin around Elan for literal months?

[BirdHarvester]

Maan, pages like this just leave me in awe of how good the art in this comic has gotten.

[hroþila]

That's on Hinjo for even giving it a go.

[Svata]

Big "who's on first" energy

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Big "who's on first" energy

I came here to say "But who's on first?!", but I was sadly too late.

[Fyraltari]

Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?






Just me?

[Drazsyr]

Paucity! What a great word.

[Peelee]

Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?






Just me?

Benefit of the phone: when the smudge moves and resizes as I zoom in on the page, it's easier to know it's not a smudge. :smallwink:

[MoonCat]

I can't believe I'd never noticed V is wearing visible shoes now! I felt like everything looked different when the art style first changed, but I've realized how much changed so naturally that I never registered the difference for years.

Speaking of the art upgrade, I like the little bit of white light reflection we can see on the specifically-black Go piece.

[Fyraltari]

I'm a bit confused by panel 2, it looks like the ravine makes a double curvature.

[Ghosty]

Looks like Oona saw them, and didn't care, or didn't see them at all. Oh well.

The art really is amazing. Thanks for pointing out Therkla; I totally missed her on first reading.

The dungeons could be each within their own demiplane space. Or the corridors could loop over each other without perceptible slope, like the corridors of the Demonweb Pits were described to do in that long ago TSR module.

I'm sure you all have noticed the potential spacing issues with the dungeons as soon as the Giant did the first reveal of the Tomb, but I never realized it until he brought it up with this strip. Funny. It seems obvious as soon as Roy says it. Putting those ranks in Architecture to use.

[SlashDash]

Nothing beats good Whose on First joke.
Though I liked the LEVEL one better.


Loved Threlka hiding in the background! Fantastic touch!

[hroþila]

I'm sure you all have noticed the potential spacing issues with the dungeons as soon as the Giant did the first reveal of the Tomb, but I never realized it until he brought it up with this strip. Funny. It seems obvious as soon as Roy says it. Putting those ranks in Architecture to use.
I imagine someone must have pointed that out before, but I haven't seen it. Also, I never really stopped to think about it.
Now I wonder whether it's just stating a fact ("the dungeons run in a straight line"), just a little bit of lampshade hanging ("ha, the dungeons don't make any sense!"), or an indication that the dungeons are 100% magic and perhaps rather Escherian.

[Fyraltari]

I had just assumed each dungeon was a succession of rooms in a straight line. What's wrong with that?

[Quild]

Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?






Just me?


Guilty as well.

[Schroeswald]

Looks like Oona saw them, and didn't care, or didn't see them at all. Oh well.

The art really is amazing. Thanks for pointing out Therkla; I totally missed her on first reading.

The dungeons could be each within their own demiplane space. Or the corridors could loop over each other without perceptible slope, like the corridors of the Demonweb Pits were described to do in that long ago TSR module.

I'm sure you all have noticed the potential spacing issues with the dungeons as soon as the Giant did the first reveal of the Tomb, but I never realized it until he brought it up with this strip. Funny. It seems obvious as soon as Roy says it. Putting those ranks in Architecture to use.

I definitely think this means there's something going on, especially since back when they came out of the dungeon a few years/days back Onna said it had twisting and turnings and the MitD called it visually interesting.

[hroþila]

I had just assumed each dungeon was a succession of rooms in a straight line. What's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.

[TerrickTerran]

I'm impressed that Hinjo survived 90 minutes of Who's On First.

[Rockphed]

After 30 minutes, Elan realized that the game was, indeed, called "Go". Bardic tradition just forbade him from giving up the spirit of Lou Costello.

.......man, how did Hinjo manage to stay a Paladin around Elan for literal months?

Because being a Paladin requires 2 things: being lawful good and not murdering even the most annoying of people just for being annoying. I imagine that Hinjo's junk took quite the beating after every long interaction with Elan.

[hamishspence]

Absolutely nothing.

It does suggest that every monster behind the doors is probably not very large though.

[Psychronia]

A retroactive F of respect for Hinjo and all the Will saves he probably had to make on account of Elan.

[Fyraltari]

It does suggest that every monster behind the doors is probably not very large though.

A single tunnel can be larger at one spot to accomodate a bigger monster if the surrounding ones are narrower at the same spot to make room.

[Blatt]

Shell game! The gate isn't in any of those dungeons. C'mon Haley.

(It's probably just out in the open with a lump of snow over it.)

[Ghosty]

I definitely think this means there's something going on, especially since back when they came out of the dungeon a few years/days back Onna said it had twisting and turnings and the MitD called it visually interesting.

I had forgotten about that. Thanks for the memory aid.

So, if the dungeons are twisting and turning, but there isn't room for that, just by looking at the front of the Tomb, then it does seem there's some funkiness going on with dimensions and spacing. If the dungeons are each in a separate planar space from each other, and the outside, then if O-Chul and Lien were being held inside of one of them, that could explain why the Sending didn't connect.

[Jay R]

After 30 minutes, Elan realized that the game was, indeed, called "Go". Bardic tradition just forbade him from giving up the spirit of Lou Costello.

Oh, very nice.

[Fyraltari]

Shell game! The gate isn't in any of those dungeons. C'mon Haley.

(It's probably just out in the open with a lump of snow over it.)

The point of a shell game is to put the mark's attention away from the shell. Having it right next to the cups would be very dumb.

[Mic_128]

The dungeons could be each within their own demiplane space. Or the corridors could loop over each other without perceptible slope, like the corridors of the Demonweb Pits were described to do in that long ago TSR module.

I'm sure you all have noticed the potential spacing issues with the dungeons as soon as the Giant did the first reveal of the Tomb, but I never realized it until he brought it up with this strip. Funny. It seems obvious as soon as Roy says it. Putting those ranks in Architecture to use.

Team Evil already mentioned that it was made of Multidimensional Stone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) I assume we've got some Doctor Who-type spatial warping going on, where they're all bigger on the inside.

[Morquard]

Don't you guys remember Redcloak complaining it was multi-dimensional rock, which prevented Xykon from just ghost-forming through it?

Edit: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html

Also ninja'*d

[Ezekiel]

So, our mysterious abductors of Lien and O'Chul didn't leave footprints for :belkar: to find?

[hroþila]

Don't you guys remember Redcloak complaining it was multi-dimensional rock, which prevented Xykon from just ghost-forming through it?
Of course, but I assumed all that did was block Xykon's Ghostform, divinations and the like.

[Fyraltari]

So, our mysterious abductors of Lien and O'Chul didn't leave footprints for :belkar: to find?

Well they seem to be flying. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html)
Then again I'm impressed by Belkar's abilities to find tracks on bare rock.

[Mic_128]

Looks like Oona saw them, and didn't care, or didn't see them at all. Oh well.


Oona's not there, and neither of the bugbears are looking at Team Cloud.

[niklinna]

Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?


I learned long ago to just scroll a web page that had a little screen schmutz on it, before assuming actual screen schmutz.

[hamishspence]

Well they seem to be flying. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html)
Then again I'm impressed by Belkar's abilities to find tracks on bare rock.

He's probably been putting skill points heavily into Survival since here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html

[understatement]

Wow, the art is just gorgeous. And I love Therkla's cameo!

So...are the dungeons House-of-Leaves-esque? Bigger on the inside than on the outside? That's a cool mental image.

[niklinna]

You know, it's a good thing Hinjo had Elan using black pieces when he taught the game, or Elan would never have recognized this clue....

Also, nice callback to the ninja, poor thing.

[Kantaki]

I'm about 75% sure Elan got what the game's called and did that routine because he didn't want to play it's what he's supposed to do.
The remaining 25% are cause Elan is an idiot.:smallamused:


Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?






Just me?


Guilty as well.

Yup. Tried to wipe two or three times before I noticed it moved with the comic.:smallredface:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Then again I'm impressed by Belkar's abilities to find tracks on bare rock.

He may or may not still have 0 ranks in survival and a negative wisdom modifier, but at level 15 his favored enemy bonus became +8, one of his favored enemies is humans, and the paladins are humans. The standard DC for tracking on hard ground, including bare rock, is 20, maybe with a few +1's for time passed, but that would still give a success with a 15 or so rolled. Hard, but not exceptionally so.

[ebarde]

Honestly even if they hollow out the entire canyon and spiral all rooms up and down, and around each other I still think them not crossing over without the use of some sort of magic is pretty unlikely if not impossible. Keep in mind also that both the cellings and the walls need some room otherwise they would be really thin, and that big monsters probably require a somewhat large living area, and a fair bit of accomodations. At that point they wouldn't even be dungeons as much as the biggest anthill ever, so I think theorizing that there is some magic going on there is nothing but fair.

[Ghosty]

Oona's not there, and neither of the bugbears are looking at Team Cloud.

I thought that was her, and then her with Greyview, in the first panel? Different bugbear and worg, because Team Evil is still in another dungeon from a few strips ago?

[ebarde]

it's definetly her, her outfit has a few notable differences than that of the others of her tribe, and I feel that if it wasn't her and Greyview there would probably be a bigger visual distinctor as to not create confusion

[Fyraltari]

Oona's not there, and neither of the bugbears are looking at Team Cloud.


I thought that was her, and then her with Greyview, in the first panel? Different bugbear and worg, because Team Evil is still in another dungeon from a few strips ago?

That's definitely Oona, the masks fits and she has the little pouch on her belt. Last time we saw Team Evil (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) was a couple days ago but V, Haley and Blackwing saw them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) meaning they weren't inside at the time.

[ebarde]

She is the only one that has antlers in her mask

[vonBoomslang]

...... we don't know for sure it's Belkar's halfling tracks he found....

[Windscion]

Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?


Just me?

> Raises hand.

Edit to add: Hadn't noticed the ninja, thanks for pointing her out.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Loved the art at the beginning, especially the little blob of Blackwing at the beginning. Hope that stopped everyone from worrying that the Order was easily spottable. :smalltongue: I’m honestly surprised Hinjo thought he would get much out of teaching Elan go in the first place.


The little Therkla was neat.

Totally didn’t even see that until you said something!

[Zhorn]

Time to go up a lev.... oh, other forumers have already used that one.
Still made me chuckle.:smallbiggrin:
Cool to see the OotS showing a surprising level of competence in front of the new cleric.

[Windscion]

I just had a thought. Maybe Monster Hollow is all multidimensional because it's at the north pole? I mean if Santa and his elves can hang out invisibly at our north pole, maybe their north pole naturally acts as a nexus? Does make me wonder about the south pole, tho.

[catagent101]

I suspect some kind of trickery is going on with the gate here. Roy has pointed out weirdness with the gigadungeon and the sheer amount of crossed out doors shows us that Team Evil has not been having success. What if the ravine itself is the gate, and multidimensional stone has been put in front of it to obscure it. The doors let their monsters out if someone disturbs the multidimensional stone, leading to an encounter of approximately 4 billion CR before they return to their homes.

Maybe not this exact idea, but I'm not sure the assumption that the doors lead to the gate is correct. The question is what exactly is the point of the doors leading to a dungeon level? And why multiple doors, rather than just one giant dungeon with the gate hidden somewhere in it? Heck, why a dungeon and not just a truly gigantic room full of monsters to squash evil to paste?

[Peelee]

I'm a bit confused by panel 2, it looks like the ravine makes a double curvature.
It doesn't have to be perfectly smooth crescent. I just see that as a natural large cranny that still conforms to the overall shape.

Looks like Oona saw them, and didn't care, or didn't see them at all. Oh well.
Oona is looking away and not towards the sky, so it's highly unlikely she saw them.

Team Evil already mentioned that it was made of Multidimensional Stone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) I assume we've got some Doctor Who-type spatial warping going on, where they're all bigger on the inside.

Don't you guys remember Redcloak complaining it was multi-dimensional rock, which prevented Xykon from just ghost-forming through it?

Edit: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html

Also ninja'*d
Speaking solely for me, I took that to mean the rock existed in multiple dimensions (eg. ethereal plane, for one) to prevent magical travel through the mountain. Not that the doors were portals to other dimensional spaces, which I only now suspect.

[bunsen_h]

The game is named Go. It's called (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haddocks%27_Eyes) many other things, especially by people who love it and by sore losers. It may have other names in cultures other than the Azurites', if any exist in Stickworld that play the game.


I'm a bit confused by panel 2, it looks like the ravine makes a double curvature.

It does. Sometimes. But not always.


Then again I'm impressed by Belkar's abilities to find tracks on bare rock.

Presumably there's at least a bit of grime, accumulated over many years, or frost. I don't think it's likely that the paladins would have gone to the trouble of rigorously cleaning the ledge. Oona mentioned that the bugbears have "certain berries" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) so there would seem to be exposed dirt for part of the year, unless the plants grow in snow or in the dungeons.

[GrayGriffin]

Yup. Tried to wipe two or three times before I noticed it moved with the comic.:smallredface:

I went back to check after seeing you guys talk about it and still tried wiping it off.

[bunsen_h]

EDIT: It's possible that Oona noticed the incoming cloudlike objects, realized that they indicate enemy activity, and intentionally didn't react so as to keep them off their guard. And is now on her way to alert Xykon and Redcloak.


Heck, why a dungeon and not just a truly gigantic room full of monsters to squash evil to paste?

I've been assuming that part of the point of the gazillion doors is to make it relatively straightforward for the "authorized" person to have access to the gate without having to deal with absolutely all of the monsters in the place.


I just had a thought. Maybe Monster Hollow is all multidimensional because it's at the north pole? I mean if Santa and his elves can hang out invisibly at our north pole, maybe their north pole naturally acts as a nexus? Does make me wonder about the south pole, tho.

Santa & Co. are the big boss that protect the gate, once one finds the correct door. He has three lists (Good, Neutral, Evil) and checks them twice.

[Fyraltari]

EDIT: It's possible that Oona noticed the incoming cloudlike objects, realized that they indicate enemy activity, and intentionally didn't react so as to keep them off their guard. And is now on her way to alert Xykon and Redcloak.

It’s also possible she’s been working for Hinjo under cover this entire time.

[Schroeswald]

I've been assuming that part of the point of the gazillion doors is to make it relatively straightforward for the "authorized" person to have access to the gate without having to deal with absolutely all of the monsters in the place.

I didn't think of that before, but yeah it makes a lot of sense.

[bunsen_h]

Do we know for sure what the properties of "multidimensional stone" are, apart from being a thing that Xykon can't ghostform through?

[Turin_19]

Therkla <3 <3 <3

[Breccia]

And I love Therkla's cameo!

Indeed, the ninja in the corner of the window was an excellent fun touch.

[Dion]

He's probably been putting skill points heavily into Survival since here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html

That was my thought too. I like how he’s been taking the whole “be useful to other people” thing seriously and slowly learning how to do ranger things.

[Alex Warlorn]

Incredible. Belkar put ranks into Tracking.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Incredible. Belkar put ranks into Tracking.

He may have, but that's not needed to explain this.


He may or may not still have 0 ranks in survival and a negative wisdom modifier, but at level 15 his favored enemy bonus became +8, one of his favored enemies is humans, and the paladins are humans. The standard DC for tracking on hard ground, including bare rock, is 20, maybe with a few +1's for time passed, but that would still give a success with a 15 or so rolled. Hard, but not exceptionally so.

[Dion]

Do we know for sure what the properties of "multidimensional stone" are, apart from being a thing that Xykon can't ghostform through?

Well, it probably has multiple dimensions. At least two, and maybe as many as three or four.

Which is an interesting complement to OoTS world, which has slowly evolved from about 1.5 dimensions to about 2.5 dimensions, with few comments from the characters.

[Windscion]

Which is an interesting complement to OoTS world, which has slowly evolved from about 1.5 dimensions to about 2.5 dimensions, with few comments from the characters.

Wait, I thought this dimension was 3.5?

[Ruck]

I do think Roy's line in panel 1 of page 2 is important, but I still have not figured out a single plausible theory about how the dungeon / gate might be trickier than it appears, or what secret there might be that is necessary to actually finding it.

[Oddstar]

He may or may not still have 0 ranks in survival and a negative wisdom modifier, but at level 15 his favored enemy bonus became +8, one of his favored enemies is humans, and the paladins are humans. The standard DC for tracking on hard ground, including bare rock, is 20, maybe with a few +1's for time passed, but that would still give a success with a 15 or so rolled. Hard, but not exceptionally so. Also, he specifically says that what he has found are scuff-marks from armor boots. Steel sabatons will scrape or scuff rock without too much difficulty. So the DC would probably be less than 20, maybe even substantially less, under these specific circumstances.


I'm about 75% sure Elan got what the game's called and did that routine because he didn't want to play it's what he's supposed to do.
The remaining 25% are cause Elan is an idiot. In all seriousness, I get the sense that Elan is cleverer than he initially appears. The thought first occurred to me when I was reading his argument with Vaarsuvius after the death of Kubota. He seems to argue quite intelligently (against, incidentally, the member of the party with the highest intelligence score) right up until the moment when it is more useful for him to be stupid, that is, when not understanding V's threat was a good way to defuse the escalating situation. Then suddenly, he was dumb again. Almost as if he were playing dumb, rather than being dumb. And that's the thing, a lot of his stupidity is often very convenient, as if he were playing dumb. And it takes a fair amount of intelligence to be clever and witty enough to come up with puns and quips on demand in the middle of a fight.

[understatement]

I think someone mentioned this earlier, but Belkar's comment about the halfling footsteps would serve as pretty great foreshadowing if it is Serini. Which I am still betting on.

[skim172]

Technically, the full Japanese name is igo. Sometimes spelled "Goe" in modern tourneys to avoid just this situation.

Oddly enough, the game originated in China and arrived in Japan at least a thousand years later, but it was the Japanese name that went global.

The Korean name is baduk, which confusingly is also used as an affectionate term for a stray dog.

[137beth]

The return of Elan's silent singing!
And, does his line in the last panel actually mean "it went on like go for an hour and a half?":smalltongue:

[Fincher]

Another reason Belkar might have put points in survival is Durkon not casting Endure Heat on him back in the desert. But I'm guessing him tracking successfully here is meant to reflect him being a serious member of the team.

[Psyren]

Therkla cameo in the last book, you made my day Giant.


Do we know for sure what the properties of "multidimensional stone" are, apart from being a thing that Xykon can't ghostform through?

Teleportation requires dimensional travel too, so it probably stops that also. It may even block them from scrying inside each one (Teevo or otherwise.)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

But I'm guessing him tracking successfully here is meant to reflect him being a serious member of the team.

Seems like a solid assumption.

[The_Weirdo]

The "Go" joke reminded me of this bit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh7rrGLqGNw&t=62s

[Fyraltari]

In all seriousness, I get the sense that Elan is cleverer than he initially appears.

To quote Doctor Who: my dear, nobody could be as stupid as he seems.

[JumboWheat01]

I spy a ninja assassin in the background of that flashback.

[ebarde]

I doubt anyone would mistake their own prints that they just made, while in a marching order for someone else's. Especially cause if there was another halfling, there would be 2 sets of footprints, so Belkar would have needed to have detected everyone's prints but his own

[Elenna]

Big "who's on first" energy


I came here to say "But who's on first?!", but I was sadly too late.

Darn, I was too late! :smalltongue:


Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?






Just me?

That would require me to have noticed him in the first place... :smallredface:

[hungrycrow]

The only thing that would make this better is flashback Elan wearing a mysterious eyepatch.

[Emperor Time]

Agree that the Therkla's cameo was a nice touch. And it funny that the misunderstanding lasted for an hour and a half. Also the game of Go has intrigue me, ever since I read a manga about Go which was called Hikaru no Go.

[Doug Lampert]

I just had a thought. Maybe Monster Hollow is all multidimensional because it's at the north pole? I mean if Santa and his elves can hang out invisibly at our north pole, maybe their north pole naturally acts as a nexus? Does make me wonder about the south pole, tho.

It's simple really, the DM's map of the world is on flat paper (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html), and is not Mercator projection.

Since in D&D land the map is the territory, this means that at the North Pole there's a lot more space than it looks like.

[Fyraltari]

The only thing that would make this better is flashback Elan wearing a mysterious eyepatch.

Ooh, that’d have been nice.

[Sniccups]

The game is named Go. It's called (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haddocks%27_Eyes) many other things [...]

Thank you. I was so hoping someone would reference this.

[Ron Miel]

Then again I'm impressed by Belkar's abilities to find tracks on bare rock.
That's what makes him the world's best tracker under 4 feet.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I wonder if this is also a hint that he put a point into Wisdom at level up, finally removing that penalty.

[Peelee]

Technically, the full Japanese name is igo. Sometimes spelled "Goe" in modern tourneys to avoid just this situation.

Oddly enough, the game originated in China and arrived in Japan at least a thousand years later, but it was the Japanese name that went global.

The Korean name is baduk, which confusingly is also used as an affectionate term for a stray dog.

The history lesson is interesting, but I'm unsure what relevance it has here - the full Common/Azurite name is Go.

[whitehelm]

Hinjo only has himself to blame. "The name of the game is Go." Is that so hard? Maybe add a pause or some air quotes if necessary.

[Hopeless]

Is it possible that entire ravine is the result of that material AND the gate was turned into some kind of earth mote and is currently high above the clouds hidden from view?

They're just assuming those doors have the gate behind one of them when it's not even on the ground...

Is that possible?

[Fyraltari]

Is it possible that entire ravine is the result of that material AND the gate was turned into some kind of earth mote and is currently high above the clouds hidden from view?

They're just assuming those doors have the gate behind one of them when it's not even on the ground...

Is that possible?

We’ve seen the Rift in flashback, it was about ground level. Meanwhile the Azurite had to build the castle high enough to reach their Rift, so the answer to your question is no.

[WindStruck]

Who here thinks there will be a little trail of Go pieces, like Hansel and Gretel leaving bread crumbs? :smallsmile:

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar has gotten noticeably better at tracking over the years. Which means that the Order is doomed. When Belkar acts like a Ranger, Roy worries (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0922.html).

man, how did Hinjo manage to stay a Paladin around Elan for literal months? If being a Paladin was easy, anybody could do it.

I assume we've got some Doctor Who-type spatial warping going on, where they're all bigger on the inside. Occam's Gygaxian Razor arrives at "sloping passageways" as a suitable explanation. But then, the Gygaxian "teleport your party somewhere else" trap as a standard feature also fits.


The remaining 25% are cause Elan is an idiot.:smallamused:
Raise that to 95% and we can take that to Vegas when it reopens.


In all seriousness, I get the sense that Elan is cleverer than he initially appears. Not seeing it.

The Korean name is baduk, which confusingly is also used as an affectionate term for a stray dog. The Ramones tried to name their song Let's Baduk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiJ9xyxc-xk) but it just didn't scan.

[Grey Watcher]

Looks like Oona saw them, and didn't care, or didn't see them at all. Oh well.

The art really is amazing. Thanks for pointing out Therkla; I totally missed her on first reading.

The dungeons could be each within their own demiplane space. Or the corridors could loop over each other without perceptible slope, like the corridors of the Demonweb Pits were described to do in that long ago TSR module.

I'm sure you all have noticed the potential spacing issues with the dungeons as soon as the Giant did the first reveal of the Tomb, but I never realized it until he brought it up with this strip. Funny. It seems obvious as soon as Roy says it. Putting those ranks in Architecture to use.


I had just assumed each dungeon was a succession of rooms in a straight line. What's wrong with that?

That would be consistent with the "boss rush" ethos the dungeon was (according to Shojo) built around.


I definitely think this means there's something going on, especially since back when they came out of the dungeon a few years/days back Onna said it had twisting and turnings and the MitD called it visually interesting.

"Visually interesting" could be parsed as referring to the monsters and spell effects rather than the terrain, but you have a solid point on the "twistings and turnings." I suppose it's [I] possible that they sort of corkscrew and tangle around each other until they get far enough away to have room to branch out. Or maybe there really is some spatial malarkey.

[Fyraltari]

Who here thinks there will be a little trail of Go pieces, like Hansel and Gretel leaving bread crumbs? :smallsmile:

Given the paladins were unconscious and carried away above a chasm that’s unlikely to say the least.

[Ghosty]

Given the paladins were unconscious and carried away above a chasm that’s unlikely to say the least.

They were picked up by their feet, weren't they? (Double-checked, and they were: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html)

Stuff spills out of pockets when you're upside down. Usually all at once, but who knows with these pockets?

[skim172]

The history lesson is interesting, but I'm unsure what relevance it has here - the full Common/Azurite name is Go.
Just a fun history nugget.


Let's Baduk[/URL] but it just didn't scan.
The folk etymology in Korea is that stray mutts with spotted white-black fur reminded people of a full Go board, and eventually all strays were called "baduki". Like if Americans referred to all doggies as "Checkers".


"You Ain't Nothing But A Go Board Nearing The Endgame" was considered by Big Mama Thornton, but it just lacked a certain catchiness.

[Lexible]

Therkla!

<3 <3 <3

[MartianInvader]

Halflng footprints, eh? Sure they *could* just be Belkar's, but the odds that we'll see Serini just went up in my book.

[t209]

Go piece?
Was it Monster In the Darkness or O-Chul?

[Schroeswald]

Go piece?
Was it Monster In the Darkness or O-Chul?

O-Chul, thats where he was hiding and he had a Go set with him

[LadyEowyn]

I just noticed that in the third panel Durkon is frowning and facing in a different direction from the others, and after that we see the other five members of the Order re-corporealize on the ledge, but not Durkon.

It’s probably nothing, just coincidence - can’t fit every character in every strip - but does anyone thing Durkon might have gone to try to talk to one of the members of Team Evil?

[Emanick]

I just noticed that in the third panel Durkon is frowning and facing in a different direction from the others, and after that we see the other five members of the Order re-corporealize on the ledge, but not Durkon.

It’s probably nothing, just coincidence - can’t fit every character in every strip - but does anyone thing Durkon might have gone to try to talk to one of the members of Team Evil?

I don't see why not. Durkon has been secretly aligned with Team Evil since the first book, so it's completely in keeping with his character for him to betray The Order at this point.

[Qaanol]

...... we don't know for sure it's Belkar's halfling tracks he found....

…nor that the wizard slippers are from V.

In fact, I think the most probable outcome is that *all* the footprints Belkar describes are pre-existing:

Armored boots = O’Chul
Regular boots = Lien
Ridiculous little wizard slippers = unknown, maybe someone who appeared in only one panel?
Proper bare halfling feet = unknown, maybe Serini

[Schroeswald]

…nor that the wizard slippers are from V.

In fact, I think the most probable outcome is that *all* the footprints Belkar describes are pre-existing:

Armored boots = O’Chul
Regular boots = Lien
Ridiculous little wizard slippers = unknown, maybe someone who appeared in only one panel?
Proper bare halfling feet = unknown, maybe Serini

It looks to me like O-Chul and Lien are both wearing armored boots, they match up with Roy's more than any other OOTS member and Roy is definitely wearing armored boots.

[bunsen_h]

I've got a nagging recollection of some kind of standard magic item in the form of a little bead..? Though I expect this one really is one of O-Chul's go stones.

[Peelee]

I've got a nagging recollection of some kind of standard magic item in the form of a little bead..? Though I expect this one really is one of O-Chul's go stones.

Ioun stones?

[bunsen_h]

Ioun stones?

No, something that's to be thrown or tossed, not the small annoying thing flying around one's face.

[Emanick]

I've got a nagging recollection of some kind of standard magic item in the form of a little bead..? Though I expect this one really is one of O-Chul's go stones.

A necklace of fire beads that you can toss into melee to produce fireballs? Gotta love those.

[Peelee]

No, something that's to be thrown or tossed, not the small annoying thing flying around one's face.

Lodestone? I doubt it, but that's all i got.

[Rogar Demonblud]

No, something that's to be thrown or tossed, not the small annoying thing flying around one's face.

Bead of Force, best reason for ever taking the time to get a sling proficiency, full stop.

[Copo de Cerveja]

The Ramones tried to name their song Let's Baduk but it just didn't scan.

Wow ! First Ramones reference I ever seen on this Forum ! I have been thinking about registering for some time, but this made me do it...
Two of my favourite things together: Ramones and D&D... Add a pint of beer and we have 3 out of 4 ! :smallbiggrin:
Baduk Mental !

Edit: Quote

[Peelee]

Wow ! First Ramones reference I ever seen on this Forum ! I have been thinking about registering for some time, but this made me do it...
Two of my favourite things together: Ramones and D&D... Add a pint of beer and we have 3 out of 4 ! :smallbiggrin:
Baduk Mental !

Really? I could have sworn there was a Ramones reference 24 hours ago.

[Copo de Cerveja]

Really? I could have sworn there was a Ramones reference 24 hours ago.

Really? This forum is getting cooler by the minute ! :smallbiggrin:
I admit I have been less attentive to the discussions in the last few months, but I've been reading the comic since 2010 and I don't remember seeing anything about the Ramones in here... Weird...

[Peelee]

Really? This forum is getting cooler by the minute ! :smallbiggrin:
I admit I have been less attentive to the discussions in the last few months, but I've been reading the comic since 2010 and I don't remember seeing anything about the Ramones in here... Weird...

I think so. It may have been a little less. Yeah, probably under by a few hours. Though really, that's a bit semantic -what's really difference between twenty, twenty, twenty-four hours ago...

[Shoelessgdowar]

The little Therkla was neat.


Soooooo sad... maybe she will show up in spirit to help save the world.



Totally didn’t even see that until you said something!



Thanks for pointing out Therkla; I totally missed her on first reading.

So, you both failed your Spot Checks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)?


…nor that the wizard slippers are from V.

In fact, I think the most probable outcome is that *all* the footprints Belkar describes are pre-existing:

Armored boots = O’Chul
Regular boots = Lien
Ridiculous little wizard slippers = unknown, maybe someone who appeared in only one panel?
Proper bare halfling feet = unknown, maybe Serini

Ummmmm... I think you failed your deduction check, detect humor check, and bardic lore check... Belkar succeeded in finding the tracks the Order just made. Which is still darn impressive considering the terrain.

[Copo de Cerveja]

I think so. It may have been a little less. Yeah, probably under by a few hours. Though really, that's a bit semantic -what's really difference between twenty, twenty, twenty-four hours ago...

Hahuahauhauha.. Good one !
It's actually "Twenty, twenty, twenty-four hours to go", but that is probably because you can't control your fingers, you can't control your brain ! Oh no, oh, oh oh oh ...

[Fyraltari]

I doubt anyone would mistake their own prints that they just made, while in a marching order for someone else's. Especially cause if there was another halfling, there would be 2 sets of footprints, so Belkar would have needed to have detected everyone's prints but his own
This is the best argument for it being Serini’s tracks so far.

[Marp]

The art is great, the go flashback with the Therkla cameo is funny and I like how competently everyone is acting. Thanks, Giant!

Initially I just connected the go stone with O-Chul without thinking and only then I realized he actually mentioned them explicitly in #1042, back in 2016. Crazy how time flies!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Wait, Belkar has a level of Barbarian, and only 14 in Ranger. So unless he leveled again his favored enemy bonus is only +6. That does make the evidence of skill points invested stronger. I'd argue his wisdom score might have improved instead, but mechanically that usually happens at total level 16.

[danielxcutter]

Just a fun history nugget.


The folk etymology in Korea is that stray mutts with spotted white-black fur reminded people of a full Go board, and eventually all strays were called "baduki". Like if Americans referred to all doggies as "Checkers".


"You Ain't Nothing But A Go Board Nearing The Endgame" was considered by Big Mama Thornton, but it just lacked a certain catchiness.

Basically yes about the game; I was going to mention this. It’s basically calling your dog Spot.




...Also, does anyone think that some of those doors are essentially fake and Team Evil doesn’t know because the MitD’s been crossing them out and they never tried to open them? There’s something weird going on... maybe they have long passages that each lead to a dungeon deep underground?

[Fyraltari]

Basically yes about the game; I was going to mention this. It’s basically calling your dog Spot.




...Also, does anyone think that some of those doors are essentially fake and Team Evil doesn’t know because the MitD’s been crossing them out and they never tried to open them? There’s something weird going on... maybe they have long passages that each lead to a dungeon deep underground?

It would be ridiculously lucky for MitD to have crossed fake doors and for Team Evil to have found none since they explore more doors than he fakes-out. Also if the doors all lead to the same place they would have figured it out by now. Besides why would even be the point of the doors then?

[pearl jam]

Because being a Paladin requires 2 things: being lawful good and not murdering even the most annoying of people just for being annoying. I imagine that Hinjo's junk took quite the beating after every long interaction with Elan.

You can get expelled from some orders if you get caught beating your junk.... :smallamused:








I, too, tried to wipe Blackwing off my screen.

[Gnoman]

With this strip calling out the unlikelihood of all the dungeons fitting together, and thus the possibility that each is within an extradimensional space, a guy over on Something Awful came up with an interesting variation on the shell game theory - the Gate is physically behind one or all of the entrances, after the entrance to the dungeon. So it can only be accessed if you get past the extradimensional opening.

[danielxcutter]

With this strip calling out the unlikelihood of all the dungeons fitting together, and thus the possibility that each is within an extradimensional space, a guy over on Something Awful came up with an interesting variation on the shell game theory - the Gate is physically behind one or all of the entrances, after the entrance to the dungeon. So it can only be accessed if you get past the extradimensional opening.

So the doors are connected to extradimensional openings, and the Gate is right behind one (or all) of them?

Huh. Could work, though I’m surprised either Redcloak or Xykon hasn’t figured that out by now.

[Cicciograna]

Sorry if this has been already asked, but can somebody remind me why Blackwing knows the way to Kraagor's Tomb?

[hamishspence]

V, Blackwing, and Haley come back from their first scout-out of the location of the Tomb, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1196.html

And V shows us what they saw back then, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1197.html

[Cicciograna]

V, Blackwing, and Haley come back from their first scout-out of the location of the Tomb, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1196.html

And V shows us what they saw back then, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1197.html

Oooh, right, absoultely. Thank you.

[Linneris]

I imagine someone must have pointed that out before, but I haven't seen it. Also, I never really stopped to think about it.
Now I wonder whether it's just stating a fact ("the dungeons run in a straight line"), just a little bit of lampshade hanging ("ha, the dungeons don't make any sense!"), or an indication that the dungeons are 100% magic and perhaps rather Escherian.

I expcet this to play a role in the story.

[InvisibleBison]

Wait, Belkar has a level of Barbarian, and only 14 in Ranger. So unless he leveled again his favored enemy bonus is only +6. That does make the evidence of skill points invested stronger. I'd argue his wisdom score might have improved instead, but mechanically that usually happens at total level 16.

Finding the tracks a pair of Medium creatures made on hard stone 2 days ago is only a DC 22 Survival check, and it can be made untrained. I'd say that there's no reason to think Belkar has put any ranks in Survival.

[Skull the Troll]

THERKLA!!! ...and now I'm sad.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wow ! First Ramones reference I ever seen on this Forum ! Now I wanna be sedated ... :smallcool: (Man, that was a lotta years ago; so were the New York Dolls ...)

[Rogar Demonblud]

If y'all keep this up, we'll end up with a blitzkrieg bop (or maybe a ballroom blitz).

[bunsen_h]

...Also, does anyone think that some of those doors are essentially fake and Team Evil doesn’t know because the MitD’s been crossing them out and they never tried to open them?

I don't understand what you mean about the doors being essentially fake. A door that doesn't lead to some kind of dungeon would be pointless; anyone who tried it would waste virtually no time/resources, so why bother setting it up?


There’s something weird going on... maybe they have long passages that each lead to a dungeon deep underground?

One way for each of the doors to lead to a big dungeon without dimensional hijinks would be for there to be a long passage behind each door, all spreading out gradually until there was space. Is that what you mean? Kind of like: for each door, project a line from the statue through the door location and onwards into the ground; set up the dungeon once the lines have diverged enough.

One amusing option for the setup would be if each dungeon contained a fragment of a clue towards the location of the gate, which is really in an entirely different location. ("Plot the location of each of the final monsters on a big piece of paper. What do the dots spell out?") That wouldn't be consistent with the information from Shojo, but we don't know how reliable that is.

EDIT: Or, worse, "Draw the first letter of the boss monster's name/type. What's the message?"

[Ron Miel]

But the point is to hide the gate. Why would Serini leave hints to the location?

[Verdruss]

Yes, great comic!

Am I the only one who is baffled by the fact that not only Elan but also Hinjo is misinterpreting the other sentences?

Also just by the looks of it and the laws of probability: I think the gate is always in the dungeon last visited.

[Fyraltari]

m

Also just by the looks of it and the laws of probability: I think the gate is always in the dungeon last visited.
Of course it is. Why would you visit dungeons after you’ve found the Gate?

[Verdruss]

Of course it is. Why would you visit dungeons after you’ve found the Gate?

Ok let me rephrase it: The gate is always in the dungeon that you have just left.

[bunsen_h]

Of course it is. Why would you visit dungeons after you’ve found the Gate?

For the XP and to slay monsters whose alignment is too different from your own. And because leaving things unfinished is fundamentally wrong. As well as rude to the GM who spent all that effort in setting the dungeon up.

[The MunchKING]

I just thought of this. Serreni is a Rogue, so what if she wanted to be sneaky in addition to paying tribute? Maybe back at the very end of one of the dungeons, there's a single section of the wall that ISN'T Dimensional Stone, but is faked up to LOOK like it is. You're supposed to warp through that bit to get through to the secret room where the Rift/Gate is.

[Peelee]

For the XP and to slay monsters whose alignment is too different from your own. And because leaving things unfinished is fundamentally wrong. As well as rude to the GM who spent all that effort in setting the dungeon up.

Whereas the DM who is making up the dungeons on an as-needed basis is just cursing at you.:smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But the point is to hide the gate. Why would Serini leave hints to the location?

Or, in Pratchett's words:

It was a good map, and in studying it Mr Wilkinson and his chums would learn a lot about decryption, geography, and devious cartography. They wouldn't find it in the whereabouts of $150,000 in mixed currencies, though, because the map was a complete and complex fiction. [...] Anyone who couldn't simply remember where he stashed a great big fortune deserved to lose it.

That said, Serini might have been foresighted enough to understand that something might happen to her and that other people might need to find a way to the gate for repairs and maintenance.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Or, in Pratchett's words:


It was a good map, and in studying it Mr Wilkinson and his chums would learn a lot about decryption, geography, and devious cartography. They wouldn't find it in the whereabouts of $150,000 in mixed currencies, though, because the map was a complete and complex fiction. [...] Anyone who couldn't simply remember where he stashed a great big fortune deserved to lose it.
This Pratchett fellow intrigues me, I'm surprised nobody's ever suggested his works to me before.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This Pratchett fellow intrigues me, I'm surprised nobody's ever suggested his works to me before.

Really? That's strange. Let me check with J. K. Rowling

"Oh, are you a prefect, Percy?" said one of the twins, with an air of great surprise. "You should have said something, we had no idea."
"Hang on, I think I remember him saying something about it," said the other twin. "Once-"
"Or twice-"
"A minute-"
"All summer-"
"Oh, shut up," said Percy the Prefect.

[Dion]

Finding the tracks a pair of Medium creatures made on hard stone 2 days ago is only a DC 22 Survival check, and it can be made untrained. I'd say that there's no reason to think Belkar has put any ranks in Survival.

Being able to tell the difference between paladin boots, goblin boots, wizard slippers, and halfling feet is probably a great deal harder than a 22.

[InvisibleBison]

Being able to tell the difference between paladin boots, goblin boots, wizard slippers, and halfling feet is probably a great deal harder than a 22.

If by "a great deal harder" you mean "not actually possible by the rules", then you'd be correct.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Being able to tell the difference between paladin boots, goblin boots, wizard slippers, and halfling feet is probably a great deal harder than a 22.

I heard it gets easier if all of the tracks except for the heavy metallic paladin boots that have been stomping around there for a while are your own. "I see something, o, that's where Vaarsuvius just stepped. Well, that leaves the only real tracks I've found the heavy boot ones."


If by "a great deal harder" you mean "not actually possible by the rules", then you'd be correct.

This is 3.5, there are probably a few ridiculous and badly thought out examples of epic uses of the track feat. Something like "Track the path of a migratory butterfly through a continent inhabited exclusively by flying insects: DC105".

[Jasdoif]

Being able to tell the difference between paladin boots, goblin boots, wizard slippers, and halfling feet is probably a great deal harder than a 22.If by "a great deal harder" you mean "not actually possible by the rules", then you'd be correct.This is 3.5, there are probably a few ridiculous and badly thought out examples of epic uses of the track feat. Something like "Track the path of a migratory butterfly through a continent inhabited exclusively by flying insects: DC105".Assuming you consider the minimally-ported-from-3.0-and-it-shows epic section of the SRD as "3.5", yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#survival); identifying the race/kind of creature by tracks is DC 60.

[Dion]

If by "a great deal harder" you mean "not actually possible by the rules", then you'd be correct.

Fair enough.

At any rate, tracking skill is a rough measure of Belkar’s usefulness to the party. The fact that he’s even trying indicates character growth.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html

[Peelee]

This is 3.5, there are probably a few ridiculous and badly thought out examples of epic uses of the track feat. Something like "Track the path of a migratory butterfly through a continent inhabited exclusively by flying insects: DC105".

I had a butterfly garden at home, does that get me a +1 on the check?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean hands down. the comic was hilarious, but thats nothing new. Elan is great. Also I love Belkar's amazing deduction.

[Fyraltari]

I had a butterfly garden at home, does that get me a +1 on the check?

Sure, it's the butterfly effect.

[Jasdoif]

I had a butterfly garden at home, does that get me a +1 on the check?Sure, it's the butterfly effect.It raises the DC by 2, though; the butterfly effect relies on rounding errors.

It works best when the higher DC can be advantageous, like Craft checks (where progress made is the product of both the check result and the DC); which is why butterfly-themed garden decorations are so popular (or at least ubiquitous).

[bunsen_h]

Assuming you consider the minimally-ported-from-3.0-and-it-shows epic section of the SRD as "3.5", yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#survival); identifying the race/kind of creature by tracks is DC 60.

I must be misunderstanding something. Identifying the normal animal inhabitants of one's own environment by their tracks in mud / snow / soft earth is a mundane skill. It would obviously be harder on terrain that takes less of an impression, and less-typical animals would take more knowledge. Identifying track types when you literally have track-making samples to work with -- boots, slippers, halfling feet -- would make it easier. Why is this rated so high?

EDIT:

A necklace of fire beads that you can toss into melee to produce fireballs? Gotta love those.
I think that that's what I was thinking of, yes. Thank you.

[Jasdoif]

I must be misunderstanding something.Most of the epic section elicits that kind of reaction, honestly. Seriously, an epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryTracker) allows you to nonmagically follow tracks in the air with a DC 120 check....


Identifying the normal animal inhabitants of one's own environment by their tracks in mud / snow / soft earth is a mundane skill. It would obviously be harder on terrain that takes less of an impression, and less-typical animals would take more knowledge. Identifying track types when you literally have track-making samples to work with -- boots, slippers, halfling feet -- would make it easier. Why is this rated so high?I like to imagine the designers having a conversation like this:

:smallconfused:: "Hey, what's the tracking DC to distinguish between a human wearing boots and a half-elf wearing the same boots?"
:smallamused:: "What, like a three-legged sack race?"
:smallconfused:: "No, like a half-elf assassinated a human to impersonate his identity."
:smallamused:: "Pfft, I dunno; let's say....We have 40 as the "nearly impossible" skill DC for ridiculous attempts, right? Let's bump it up a take-20, and call it DC 60 to distinguish creatures of the same type by tracks."
:smallconfused:: "Really? That high?"
:smallamused:: "Sure. You can write a cool round number; and any sane player will use magic. Besides, a DM should know better than to let a tracking DC derail their adventure anyway, so it hardly matters."
:smallconfused:: "Oh, okay."

[Dion]

Identifying track types when you literally have track-making samples to work with -- boots, slippers, halfling feet -- would make it easier. Why is this rated so high?

Kenobi only knew Tusken Raiders rode single file to hide their numbers because he was an epic level ranger.

[Rockphed]

Most of the epic section elicits that kind of reaction, honestly. Seriously, an epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryTracker) allows you to nonmagically follow tracks in the air with a DC 120 check....

I like to imagine the designers having a conversation like this:

:smallconfused:: "Hey, what's the tracking DC to distinguish between a human wearing boots and a half-elf wearing the same boots?"
:smallamused:: "What, like a three-legged sack race?"
:smallconfused:: "No, like a half-elf assassinated a human to impersonate his identity."
:smallamused:: "Pfft, I dunno; let's say....We have 40 as the "nearly impossible" skill DC for ridiculous attempts, right? Let's bump it up a take-20, and call it DC 60 to distinguish creatures of the same type by tracks."
:smallconfused:: "Really? That high?"
:smallamused:: "Sure. You can write a cool round number; and any sane player will use magic. Besides, a DM should know better than to let a tracking DC derail their adventure anyway, so it hardly matters."
:smallconfused:: "Oh, okay."

There is not enough booze in that conversation. I am fairly certain that one of the designers should be schnockered and the other should be trying to put the moves on the lamp in a corner.

[Jasdoif]

There is not enough booze in that conversation. I am fairly certain that one of the designers should be schnockered and the other should be trying to put the moves on the lamp in a corner.No, no; that one's Escape Artist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist).

Want to squeeze through a two-inch gap? Don't worry, DC 80 and your head will fit! Want to squeeze through a wall of force? No problem, DC 120 and you can find a gap that would mean the spell would have failed if it existed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm)!

[KorvinStarmast]

If y'all keep this up, we'll end up with a blitzkrieg bop (or maybe a ballroom blitz). There's a sweet memory. :smallcool:

Something about multidimensional stone reminds me of acid rock; Spirit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAG4kxpYcFE), to be specific, and with Belkar rangering better, the animal zoo may soon include Greyview.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not my favorite Spirit song (that's a toss up between I Got a Line on You and Taurus, which was totally swiped by Led Zep whatever the 9th Circuit says), but still very good.

[TheNecrocomicon]

It still seems to me that the biggest purpose of the ravine being built up out of multidimensional stone is to further Serini's roguish shell-game.

From the flashback to the Scribblers' final Rift-sealing battle, the tear itself was at ground level. For the entire ravine to be "built up" out of stone, if the Gate was never moved, it must be deep underneath all that in the present day.

The dungeons are the distraction, filled with badass monsters, either to overwhelm and slay whoever comes searching or to keep them occupied indefinitely.

Seeing as multidimensional stone would block ghostforming and other ethereal phasing, as well as divinations, all you need to do is surround the Gate with a thick enough continuous layer of the magically formed stone and no one would be able to divine its exact location, nor get to it, short of physically tunnelling there inch by inch. Think Girard's lead sheeting, only way more durable, which even makes a little sense if he and Serini kept up regular correspondence.

I'm still of the opinion that none of the dungeons lead to the gate, and it is sealed away deep down there somewhere. And the statue of Kraagor at the surface would serve as a useful marker of its location down below, to someone who knew what to look for and knew it was more than just a memorial.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I’m pretty sure that either the ravine itself never existed before Serini built it over the Gate, or it’s somewhere else. I don’t think the Rift would have fit in the statue, though.

[Ron Miel]

I don’t think the Rift would have fit in the statue, though.

Maybe the statue is multidimensional stone.

[ebarde]

I dunno if this is gonna amount to anything important plotwise, or is just gonna be explained later that there is some magic going on that allows for this to happen and that is that. I think it might be important, cause if it wasn't, it could be fairly easy to have had Redcloak note on what's going on to the reader earlier in the Team Evil scenes. A lot of times when the giant doesn't feel like sometihing needs a thorough explanation he just has a character make a theory of what could possibly be happening just so it doesn't become a plot hole. And considering there were a few times where that could have been done, I feel that this is going to be a bigger thing later on.

[Deathhappens]

After 30 minutes, Elan realized that the game was, indeed, called "Go". Bardic tradition just forbade him from giving up the spirit of Lou Costello.

.......man, how did Hinjo manage to stay a Paladin around Elan for literal months?


Higher on the Wisdom, lower on the combat stats. Explains why he couldn't beat Miko but was still her direct superior. :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

Maybe the statue is multidimensional stone.

Until proven otherwise, I presume "multidimensional stone" means "exists on both the Material and Ethereal Planes and thus can't be penetrated through those methods.

We'll have to see, though.

[Quebbster]

Higher on the Wisdom, lower on the combat stats. Explains why he couldn't beat Miko but was still her direct superior. :smallbiggrin:
Miko was the highest-ranking paladin in the Sapphire Guard before her Fall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), so Hinjo wasn't her superior at that point. When he became commander Miko had already Fallen.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well, I’m pretty sure that either the ravine itself never existed before Serini built it over the Gate, or it’s somewhere else. I don’t think the Rift would have fit in the statue, though.

I don't mean to say it's in the statue -- that would probably be way too susceptible to damage, even accidentally.

I mean to say that the statue is (or seems very likely to me to be) the "X marks the spot" for where the Gate/Rift sits deep below, completely surrounded by said multidimensional stone.

[bunsen_h]

We know that there's an arcane/divine ritual that can move the rift to a different plane. How sure are we that there isn't some kind of spell that could have moved the rift to some other location?

For that matter, just moving the rift to another plane, in a small open space inside the multidimensional stone, would be a nice bit of extra protection. The Dark One created the Crimson Mantle to pass the necessary information about the ritual to its wearer, but I don't think we have any reason to think that that information is unique to the Mantle.

[ShaneWegner]

I think someone mentioned this earlier, but Belkar's comment about the halfling footsteps would serve as pretty great foreshadowing if it is Serini. Which I am still betting on.

Agreed. I think "Proper Bare Halfling Feet" could be a double up. Belkar's steps obviously, but given it feels like there's a good chance the invisible mystery assailants were Sirini and whoever her disciple/lieutenant is these days, that could be hidden foreshadowing that Belkar saw more evidence than he understood to interpret.

[Jasdoif]

We know that there's an arcane/divine ritual that can move the rift to a different plane. How sure are we that there isn't some kind of spell that could have moved the rift to some other location?Fairly sure.



....
So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

[bunsen_h]

Fairly sure.




That makes it clear that the rift and gate couldn't have been moved trivially, but doesn't rule out the possibility that the rift could have been moved by application of the proper magic. Am I remembering correctly that Redcloak's ritual takes a few days to complete?

[Jasdoif]

That makes it clear that the rift and gate couldn't have been moved trivially, but doesn't rule out the possibility that the rift could have been moved by application of the proper magic.I suppose; but if the rifts could be moved freely, then leaving them on the planet seems like a rather egregious oversight.


Am I remembering correctly that Redcloak's ritual takes a few days to complete?A few weeks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html).

[Ghosty]

I know we must have covered this already, but the flashback scenes with the Scribbles and the Gates were done in crayon, indicating an unreliable narrator, right? So even though the flashback scenes have matched up fairly well to the actual geometries of each Gate and its surroundings, that doesn't have to be true for Serini's Gate.

Though if Serini was able to have interdimensional stone thrown around like the Burj Khalifa uses concrete---despite the cost being high enough that the dwarven builders felt it necessary to cut corners on the Tomb's construction---nothing says the Gate can't be buried under a few hundred feet of the stuff. I.e., it was at ground-level, like in the crayon drawing, and then Serini's dwarves showed up and raised the ground.

[Peelee]

That makes it clear that the rift and gate couldn't have been moved trivially, but doesn't rule out the possibility that the rift could have been moved by application of the proper magic.

I, for one, take "no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved" to mean that no, the Gate or the right can not be physically moved. Even with magic. Nothing in there indicated triviality to me.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I came here to say "But who's on first?!", but I was sadly too late.Not you.


Okay who else tried to wipe Blackwing off the first panel on their screen?I did.


I just had a thought. Maybe Monster Hollow is all multidimensional because it's at the north pole?Well, the north pole is a coordinate singularity, just like the event horizon of a black hole.


The game is named Go. It's called (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haddocks%27_Eyes) many other things, especially by people who love it and by sore losers. It may have other names in cultures other than the Azurites', if any exist in Stickworld that play the game.But that would imply other cultures have different languages, which seems like a huge unnecessary headache.

Oona mentioned that the bugbears have "certain berries" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) so there would seem to be exposed dirt for part of the year, unless the plants grow in snow or in the dungeons.Also, if the surface never thaws, you have a glacier and literally nothing growing.

O-Chul, thats where he was hiding and he had a Go set with himI'm reminded (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) that O-Chul didn't buy the stones to play with Lien. Maybe he's been sneaking off to play with MitD?

[Fyraltari]

Well, the north pole is a coordinate singularity, just like the event horizon of a black hole.

The singularity is at the center of the black hole, the event horizon is at its "edge". Not the same thing.

[Rockphed]

I'm reminded (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) that O-Chul didn't buy the stones to play with Lien. Maybe he's been sneaking off to play with MitD?

No, he didn't buy them for Lien, but he will gladly play a game with Lien if she gets bored enough. He will probably give her whatever handicap she wants too. And compose caligraphy and poetry while waiting for her to make her move.

[F.Harr]

I'm sure Therkla was very entertained. :)

[Scizor]

No, he didn't buy them for Lien, but he will gladly play a game with Lien if she gets bored enough. He will probably give her whatever handicap she wants too. And compose caligraphy and poetry while waiting for her to make her move.

O-chul never struck me as the calligraphy and poetry type - he is just a fighter with a couple levels of paladin and a very high Constitution score. His charisma isn't amazing, if I remember correctly, and his style seems to be more wisdom than art.

[danielxcutter]

O-chul never struck me as the calligraphy and poetry type - he is just a fighter with a couple levels of paladin and a very high Constitution score. His charisma isn't amazing, if I remember correctly, and his style seems to be more wisdom than art.

That makes sense, yeah... knowing Go doesn’t instantly mean “well-cultured”, same as knowing the basic rules of chess doesn’t either. Belkar is a pretty good cook but nobody considers him a man of wealth and taste.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar is a pretty good cook but nobody considers him a man of wealth and taste. But he'd kill the tsar and his ministers while someone screamed in vain. On the other hand, given the way that he has responded to NPCs, I can't see him ever saying "Pleased to meet you!" :smallcool:

[Rockphed]

O-chul never struck me as the calligraphy and poetry type - he is just a fighter with a couple levels of paladin and a very high Constitution score. His charisma isn't amazing, if I remember correctly, and his style seems to be more wisdom than art.

I was more going for "he enjoys Go and is willing to let an inexperienced opponent take their time" than "O-chul is a man of wealth and taste". Also, I had just watched the Avatar episode where Sokka gets a new sword and was asked to learn caligraphy.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The singularity is at the center of the black hole, the event horizon is at its "edge". Not the same thing.The center of a black hole is a true singularity, but there are also two false or "coordinate" singularities where time reverses (ergosphere) and gravity becomes infinite (event horizon).

[factotum]

The center of a black hole is a true singularity, but there are also two false or "coordinate" singularities where time reverses (ergosphere) and gravity becomes infinite (event horizon).

I don't know about the first one, but the event horizon is most definitely *not* where gravity becomes infinite--that's the singularity. The event horizon is where gravity becomes strong enough for light to not escape.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Elan must've been pretty good for a game of that to go on for an hour and a half. :smallbiggrin:

[bunsen_h]

I'm sure Therkla was very entertained. :)

"Will he break the paladin? Will he? Such finesse, such dramatic tension..."


Elan must've been pretty good for a game of that to go on for an hour and a half. :smallbiggrin:

By "like that", he might have meant just the "taking turns strategically, like in That".

[Fyraltari]

I don't know about the first one, but the event horizon is most definitely *not* where gravity becomes infinite--that's the singularity. The event horizon is where gravity becomes strong enough for light to not escape.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what an ergosphere is either. Also time doesn’t reverse inside a black hole but ‘the future’ becomes ‘closer to the singularity’.

[Quizatzhaderac]

My first post about singularities probably should have been in blue, since it's technically true, but specious to the point of being a lie. And any further discussion is just silly semantics.

The gravity does in fact go to infinity at the event horizon. The surface gravity does not, and remains finite until you get to a true mass singularity. "Surface gravity" is before taking time dilation into account and works almost exactly like Newtonian gravity.

Also, yes time doesn't actually reverse inside an ergosphere. The equations do say that temporal component of the spacetime metric becomes negative, but that really only implies the impossibility of staying still in such a place.

[Snails]

No, no; that one's Escape Artist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist).

Want to squeeze through a two-inch gap? Don't worry, DC 80 and your head will fit! Want to squeeze through a wall of force? No problem, DC 120 and you can find a gap that would mean the spell would have failed if it existed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm)!

I do not see these as fundamentally different as Evasion, that there are gaps that in the swirling blast of fire or in the wall or in the forcefield that simple inspection would indicate do not exist, yet are exploitable by someone with a level of skill that is indistinguishable from magic.

For a Wall of Force, it is literally the least solid thing that exists, arguably even less solid than a wind wall. Only it seems perfectly solid under most conditions.

[Jasdoif]

I do not see these as fundamentally different as Evasion, that there are gaps that in the swirling blast of fire or in the wall or in the forcefield that simple inspection would indicate do not exist, yet are exploitable by someone with a level of skill that is indistinguishable from magic.That would have been a better approach than "getting through a space when one’s head shouldn’t even be able to fit; this can be as small as 2 inches square for Medium-size creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist)", yes.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I know we must have covered this already, but the flashback scenes with the Scribbles and the Gates were done in crayon, indicating an unreliable narrator, right? So even though the flashback scenes have matched up fairly well to the actual geometries of each Gate and its surroundings, that doesn't have to be true for Serini's Gate.

Though if Serini was able to have interdimensional stone thrown around like the Burj Khalifa uses concrete---despite the cost being high enough that the dwarven builders felt it necessary to cut corners on the Tomb's construction---nothing says the Gate can't be buried under a few hundred feet of the stuff. I.e., it was at ground-level, like in the crayon drawing, and then Serini's dwarves showed up and raised the ground.

It actually seems to me that the dwarven contractors cut corners on Dorukan's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills, given the general environment and Dorukan and Lirian looking on in the background (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), and not Kraagor's Tomb.

In the subsequent strip (#277), we get a flashback to Serini directing the delivery of creatures to her stronghold under construction, but there's no indication as to who is doing the work. And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

[Fyraltari]

In the subsequent strip (#277), we get a flashback to Serini directing the delivery of creatures to her stronghold under construction, but there's no indication as to who is doing the work. And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

I'm pretty sure magical smithing and architecture is okay for dwarves.

[Schroeswald]

It actually seems to me that the dwarven contractors cut corners on Dorukan's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills, given the general environment and Dorukan and Lirian looking on in the background (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), and not Kraagor's Tomb.

Its pretty clearly a reference to Dorukan's Dungeon, they mention the missing Water Dungeon that protects the Amulet Nale was looking for and the gate not being completely covered (also being in the basement but this could apply to the gates of Girard and Serini).

[TheNecrocomicon]

I'm pretty sure magical smithing and architecture is okay for dwarves.

True. I guess I forget that OotS-world is not subject to the same species norms and lore as other D&D universes.

[bunsen_h]

True. I guess I forget that OotS-world is not subject to the same species norms and lore as other D&D universes.

I can't think of a setting in which Dwarves weren't okay with doing magical smithing and architecture themselves, though I don't doubt that they exist. Not too keen on doing other kinds of magic, and resistant to being the targets of other people using magic, yes.

[mjasghar]

That seems to have been a development of fantasy writers who have tended to give them a Scandinavian vibe of horned helmets and axes and distrust of magic/use of magical weapons.
This also ties on with the tendency to make elves overtly magical especially in their culture. Concomitant with that is dwarves focusing on clerical magic for their magical needs.

[Ghosty]

It actually seems to me that the dwarven contractors cut corners on Dorukan's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills, given the general environment and Dorukan and Lirian looking on in the background (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), and not Kraagor's Tomb.

In the subsequent strip (#277), we get a flashback to Serini directing the delivery of creatures to her stronghold under construction, but there's no indication as to who is doing the work. And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

You're right. And thanks for the link, because it made me realize that in the flashback, we consistently see pine trees and pretty substantial hills around Serini's and Kraggor's rift. But we don't see any close hills or trees in the shots that pan around Kraagor's statue. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html
And we see some very low hills in the distance when Oona first flies into the bugbear village, but the hills aren't as close as in the crayon drawings. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html

So where did the hills and trees go?

[Jasdoif]

You're right. And thanks for the link, because it made me realize that in the flashback, we consistently see pine trees and pretty substantial hills around Serini's and Kraggor's rift. But we don't see any close hills or trees in the shots that pan around Kraagor's statue. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html
And we see some very low hills in the distance when Oona first flies into the bugbear village, but the hills aren't as close as in the crayon drawings. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html

So where did the hills and trees go?Clearly(?), Kragoor's statue and the bugbear village are on the outskirts of the hills, so they only show up on certain angles; and the bugbears cut down the trees to make the village's buildings.

Or Shojo's retelling involves his best approximation of the locale, because he probably wouldn't need to send the Order to check on rifts if the Sapphire Guard would do so themselves.

Or maybe both!

[Schroeswald]

Or Shojo's retelling involves his best approximation of the locale, because he probably wouldn't need to send the Order to check on rifts if the Sapphire Guard would do so themselves.


It's definitely not this one because the whole point of recruiting the Order was to have them check on the gates, the Sapphire Guard had that pesky oath keeping them from checking them out.

[danielxcutter]

People have mentioned Stone Shape is a thing... so the ravine was probably built that way. Whether or not it was built over the Gate or not is an entirely different question entirely.

[bunsen_h]

I can't think of a setting in which Dwarves weren't okay with doing magical smithing and architecture themselves, though I don't doubt that they exist. Not too keen on doing other kinds of magic, and resistant to being the targets of other people using magic, yes.

Actually, looking back through my old AD&D books, I see that dwarves were flat-out barred from being magic users, and PC dwarves were barred from being clerics. NPC dwarf clerics maxed out at 8th level. All of the non-human races were unlimited as thieves, and pretty much only as thieves -- half-elves were unlimited as druids. Half-orcs were limited as thieves but unlimited as assassins.

Officially. I don't recall ever seeing a group that paid attention to those rules. The game designers were trying to make the game human-centric, and make up for the non-humans' special abilities, but the whole "all high-level non-humans are thieves" came off as skeevy-racist.


People have mentioned Stone Shape is a thing... so the ravine was probably built that way. Whether or not it was built over the Gate or not is an entirely different question entirely.

Stone Shape can mould only 10 ft3 + 1 ft3/level. I don't think it's likely that the ravine was built that way unless there's some way of escalating the spell's scope by many orders of magnitude.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They changed how level limits worked in 2E, since I played a dwarf fighter-cleric that was as close as I could get to paladin. Honestly, I think the intention was that demihumans would all multiclass, which would spread out their XP so far they'd have trouble getting to the level limits.

[danielxcutter]

They changed how level limits worked in 2E, since I played a dwarf fighter-cleric that was as close as I could get to paladin. Honestly, I think the intention was that demihumans would all multiclass, which would spread out their XP so far they'd have trouble getting to the level limits.

Yeesh, I’m starting to think D&D racism was even worse than in 3.5e. At least the “common” humanoid races didn’t get screwed over that much.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eh, they were still trying to balance wargame units. Despite the game having left all that behind almost immediately.

[factotum]

That seems to have been a development of fantasy writers who have tended to give them a Scandinavian vibe of horned helmets and axes and distrust of magic/use of magical weapons.
This also ties on with the tendency to make elves overtly magical especially in their culture. Concomitant with that is dwarves focusing on clerical magic for their magical needs.

What it might come down to is that dwarves and elves traditionally distrust each other in fantasy, and since the elves are the magical types, in order to make dwarves as opposite as possible they don't use magic. Note that Tolkien never made any distinction like this, but then, Tolkien's fantasy world is actually very low-magic, so people not using magic doesn't mark them out as special in any way.

[danielxcutter]

What it might come down to is that dwarves and elves traditionally distrust each other in fantasy, and since the elves are the magical types, in order to make dwarves as opposite as possible they don't use magic. Note that Tolkien never made any distinction like this, but then, Tolkien's fantasy world is actually very low-magic, so people not using magic doesn't mark them out as special in any way.

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

[Rockphed]

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

In Tolkien the best smiths are elves who have been smithing since they were born some time in the first age. They have literally thousands of years of experience. The next best smiths are dwarves, who naturally live to about 250.

[bunsen_h]

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

Gandalf is kind of a special case. The five wizards ("the Istari") are incarnated Maiar -- essentially, equivalent to high-level angels, subordinate to the Valar, who are equivalent to archangels in the hierarchy of beings. Their mandate is to encourage the beings of Middle-Earth and support them in their battle with Sauron, but to keep a relatively low profile themselves. At the time of LotR, the Istari are thousands of years old, not counting their time prior to incarnation. They've had the time to pick up some skills, and again, they're supposed to use their non-mundane power sparingly.

[factotum]

Just to note: I'm pretty sure the Istari were forbidden to use their angelic power at all (because doing so would risk another cataclysm like the one that sunk Beleriand), they were only allowed to use powers that were available to regular mortals in Middle-Earth. So, technically a regular human could become a wizard like Gandalf or Saruman, it's just the long lives of the Istari gave them an advantage over regular humans in how much they could learn.

[bunsen_h]

Just to note: I'm pretty sure the Istari were forbidden to use their angelic power at all (because doing so would risk another cataclysm like the one that sunk Beleriand), they were only allowed to use powers that were available to regular mortals in Middle-Earth. So, technically a regular human could become a wizard like Gandalf or Saruman, it's just the long lives of the Istari gave them an advantage over regular humans in how much they could learn.

Do we ever see or hear about anyone doing anything magic-y who doesn't have some kind of "special" background? It's hard to make a distinction between "Aragorn could do stuff because of his heritage" and "Aragorn could do stuff because of his special upbringing and because his heritage gave him an extended livespan in which to learn". The lembas was said to have been baked by Galadriel herself, IIRC; the magic-ish elvish robes and rope might also have required input by Galadriel. There's the stuff about the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-King of Angmar, but again, IIRC they had the Numenorian heritage.

EDIT: There are also artefacts such as the swords, but again, they were forged in the ancient past.

[factotum]

Galadriel isn't really special, though--she's just an Elf. The only thing that marks her apart from most of her kind is that she was one of those who went to Aman to live with the Valar, and then came back to Middle-Earth with Feanor chasing the Silmarils. And I think the point made about her baking the lembas wasn't to say she was the only one who could, but that this particular batch had been made specially for the Fellowship because they're just that darned important.

[Peelee]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/KxhIhXaAmjOVy/giphy-downsized-large.gif

[Fyraltari]

Do we ever see or hear about anyone doing anything magic-y who doesn't have some kind of "special" background? It's hard to make a distinction between "Aragorn could do stuff because of his heritage" and "Aragorn could do stuff because of his special upbringing and because his heritage gave him an extended livespan in which to learn". The lembas was said to have been baked by Galadriel herself, IIRC; the magic-ish elvish robes and rope might also have required input by Galadriel. There's the stuff about the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-King of Angmar, but again, IIRC they had the Numenorian heritage.

EDIT: There are also artefacts such as the swords, but again, they were forged in the ancient past.
Beorn the skin-changer. Quoth Tolkien ‘Beorn was a bit of a magician but still just a man’. Seeing as Beorn knows Radagast and Gandalf describes him as a master of shapes and hues, there’s a fan-theory that Beorn was taught by him.
Edit: also the Druedain. Everything about the Druedain.

Galadriel isn't really special, though--she's just an Elf. The only thing that marks her apart from most of her kind is that she was one of those who went to Aman to live with the Valar, and then came back to Middle-Earth with Feanor chasing the Silmarils. And I think the point made about her baking the lembas wasn't to say she was the only one who could, but that this particular batch had been made specially for the Fellowship because they're just that darned important.
Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).
As for lembas only the queen (or lady in her case) of a tribe of Elves is allowed to bake some and we know Melina used to as well so it’s not just a Galadriel thing.

[Rockphed]

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).

That makes it all the more special that she gave Gimli some of her hair.

[Fyraltari]

That makes it all the more special that she gave Gimli some of her hair.

Yeah, it's great. What's more Feänor asked (and was denied) three times, and Gimli asked for one lock and was given three.

http://s11.favim.com/610/160202/beautiful-cate-blanchett-dwarves-elves-Favim.com-3951606.jpg

[Quizatzhaderac]

And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry? Nothing magical about multidimensional stone at all! It's simply the natural result of proper dwarven mining.

You see, when humans mine, they do a superficial job and only focus on three spacial dimensions and let the stone they extract be overly thin otherwise.

[Peelee]

Yeah, it's great. What's more Feänor asked (and was denied) three times, and Gimli asked for one lock and was given three.

http://s11.favim.com/610/160202/beautiful-cate-blanchett-dwarves-elves-Favim.com-3951606.jpg

I'm pretty sure Legolas was thinking "yeah, that makes sense. John Rhys-Davies is a treasure, after all.":smalltongue:

[Grey Watcher]

Nothing magical about multidimensional stone at all! It's simply the natural result of proper dwarven mining.

You see, when humans mine, they do a superficial job and only focus on three spacial dimensions and let the stone they extract be overly thin otherwise.

If this were Discworld, this would be the canon explanation.

[Kantaki]

Yeah, it's great. What's more Feänor asked (and was denied) three times, and Gimli asked for one lock and was given three.

And now I'm imagining Feänor hearing about this.:smallamused:
Considering the guy's temper the fireworks would be glorious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If this were Discworld, this would be the canon explanation.

Except for the graffiti they believe in so much it has become a demon of vengeance of their own creation, of course.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

There's also the issue that plenty of things that the hobbits and we as readers consider magic aren't magic at all for the people doing them, especially the Elves. Anyway, my two favourite bits of magic in Tolkien's legendarium are:
1) Gandalf and the Balrog using a spell and a counterspell on the door to the Mazarbul chamber.
2) Finrod dueling Sauron in a magic sing-off.

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).
As for lembas only the queen (or lady in her case) of a tribe of Elves is allowed to bake some and we know Melina used to as well so it’s not just a Galadriel thing.
Emphasis on "lady" (from Old English hlæfdige, equivalent to hlaf, "loaf", plus dæge, "kneader", related to "dough"). Tolkien loved doing nerdy stuff like this.

[ebarde]

Plot twist is that Galandriel would only give one but pulled the other 2 by mistake, and just tried to pass it off as it was her intent all along to save face. Also, I'm fairly sure some descriptions of the Hobbits' stealth abilities, seem to imply that there is more to it than just being short and having light feet

[Fyraltari]

And now I'm imagining Feänor hearing about this.:smallamused:
Considering the guy's temper the fireworks would be glorious.
Fëanor: *destructive temper tantrum*
Mandos: And that’s another 100, 000 years added to your time in here.

There's also the issue that plenty of things that the hobbits and we as readers consider magic aren't magic at all for the people doing them, especially the Elves. Anyway, my two favourite bits of magic in Tolkien's legendarium are:
1) Gandalf and the Balrog using a spell and a counterspell on the door to the Mazarbul chamber.
2) Finrod dueling Sauron in a magic sing-off.
My favorite is that Denethor ignored Faramir’s dream-vision si long that Eru just gave up and sent it to Boromir as well. Denethor, such a bad parent even the creator of the universe has to give in to his favoritism.


Emphasis on "lady" (from Old English hlæfdige, equivalent to hlaf, "loaf", plus dæge, "kneader", related to "dough"). Tolkien loved doing nerdy stuff like this.
Douglas Adams does not write jokes in base 13 but John Tolkien definitely puns in Old English.

[ebarde]

I know this is Tolkien so it would be like some folk type music, but I just imagine Sauron roasting a dude with all his Balrogs cheering him on

[Fyraltari]

I know this is Tolkien so it would be like some folk type music, but I just imagine Sauron roasting a dude with all his Balrogs cheering him on
Well aside for the Balrogs (who don’t work for Sauron, at least not at this time) you’re not wrong:

“Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and miht he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn –
And Finrod fell before the throne.

Then Sauron stripped from them their disguise, and they stood before him naked and afraid. But though their kinds were revealed, Sauron could not discover their names or their purposes.”
Noldor, blood is on your haaaaaaaands!
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/83d2627b-a0b5-48e1-9b77-e3a68ee09ff8/d7304uq-695665a2-0a48-4c18-8229-e58714d9588c.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjph cHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvODNkMjYyN2ItYT BiNS00OGUxLTliNzctZTNhNjhlZTA5ZmY4XC9kNzMwNHVxLTY5 NTY2NWEyLTBhNDgtNGMxOC04MjI5LWU1ODcxNGQ5NTg4Yy5qcG cifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9h ZCJdfQ.v_RTVvUf7zwbJeZTxYudjaqvLQfPGPrakjJcPjBG-EQ

[hroþila]

That is one sweet screen image.

One thing that's often overlooked is that Finrod did all that while still disguised as an Orc. Just picture that.

[Whispri]

Hinjo only has himself to blame. "The name of the game is Go." Is that so hard? Maybe add a pause or some air quotes if necessary.

Indeed, Hinjo was being quite the cretin. I'm honestly surprised that no one's ever strangled him.


That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard. Gandalf's an NPC, and I'd guess a high level Celestial/Archangel sort.

I get the idea that the Valar are demigods, or Archangels, or minor deities subordinate to Illuvitar - they have a lot of similarities to various deities of various pantheons the associate a deity with the raw forces of nature, or the major archetypes: Wind, the Earth, the Harvest, the Smith, the Sea, the Hunger, the Mother, and son on. The Istari/Maiar are powerful servants, more or less Celestial / Angels etc. That puts Melkor somewhere near the disobedient yet grandest archangel or demigod.

I seem to recall some disobedient gods in the Greek Pantheon, and of course Loki in the Norse Pantheon is ever the trickster / schemer, but I'd need to pick up Bullfinch again to get a name for the Greek one. (Hera comes to mind as being at odds with Zeus, but I am not sure if "disobedient" fits - just some stress in the marriage...and understandable given his philandering ... )

[Fyraltari]

Indeed, Hinjo was being quite the cretin. I'm honestly surprised that no one's ever strangled him.[quote]
Careful, you might become a bad plaque person.



[quote]Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.
Yeah that joke wasn’t funny the first time I saw it on the internet and it’s not become funnier in the two hundred times since.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah that joke wasn’t funny the first time I saw it on the internet and it’s not become funnier in the two hundred times since. FWIW, there was a thread on the D&D 5e sub forum where people tried to stat out various LoTR characters for that edition; the case for Gandalf as a Bard, College of Lore, was reasonably well made.


(And of course the "Gandalf was a 5th level magic user" rubbish from back in the 70's when D&D was new).

[bunsen_h]

Gandalf's a bard though. He just calls himself a wizard.

I sometimes play with the conceit that the fundamental nature of Tolkien's world is the music that Eru brought into being at the beginning of time, and that what we see (through the Hobbits' eyes, as set down in the books) is merely the physical manifestation of that music. Magical effects involve making music, or modulating the music. People with magical perceptions are able to "hear" the underlying music directly, rather than being limited to perceiving only its manifestation in physical form.

[Snails]

Galadriel is special for an Elf, she was born under the Two Trees and their light was captured in her hair, Feänor even ask her for a lock to help him craft the ‘marils (she refused).

Yes, this.

Galadriel was special for an elf, compared directly to Feänor in potential, albeit with a more subtle nature.

In fact, her greatness was so apparent that she declared her desire to leave her father and found her own kingdom in Middle Earth, and had no trouble finding followers. That they died in droves crossing the great ice was not part of her original plan, but follow her leadership through great toil they nonetheless did.

[Oshirokita]

I agree with Shoelessgdofwar that most people here failed their humor check. It seems completely obvious and hilarious that Belkar is detecting the tracks just left by Oots.
When it turns out that Serini was there, it will be ironic that Belkar accidentally determined a halfling was there by seeing his own footprint.

[hamishspence]

"Looks like just them and us".



So he recognises some of the tracks as the Order's own.

[ebarde]

While it would be kinda amusing I guess, I feel that there is a certain separation of those kinds of jokes and plot relevant stuff in OOTS. Maybe not in the earlier days, but I feel that it might be a bit cheap to use the Rule of Funny to such a plot relevant and somewhat convenient effect if that makes sense? Although I admit that this is ultimately a hard line to draw, I just think it would be weird if such a plot revelation was facilitated this much by an old joke that seemingly doesn't seem to apply anymore since Belkar did some pretty decent tracking in this page.

Also, you could make the argument that it undercuts a bit of his character development. As he started out not being a team player that was unable to do the one thing he was actually hired to do, but now that he has grown as a person and a teammate he can fulfill his role in the party.

[Oshirokita]

"Looks like just them and us".



So he recognises some of the tracks as the Order's own.

Exactly! ....

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... do "spells of the caliber" refer to [Evil] spells? At least some of the Symbol line spells are Evil, as well as Animate Dead et. al. That being said, I don't think Xykon actually uses that many... Epic spells would leave a lingering aura for days, but that hardly counts as "most commonly". Even Xykon can't have more than three per day, and at least one slot goes into Epic Mage Armor. Spells that are 10th-level or higher also leave auras like that, but I don't think metamagic counts.

On a slightly different point, does anyone feel like Xykon... would be a bit too powerful for the Order, if this was an actual tabletop game? Evidence leans heavily for him to be at least in the late-20s CR range; I'd personally balk at using anything like that on a non-epic party. The DMG doesn't even supply XP for creatures 7 CR or higher than the party's average ECL; that's how much of a gap there is!

Yes, there are several factors in favor of the Order; Roy's sword, Durkon's artifact hammer, and of course knowing most of what the enemy can do while essentially remaining unknown themselves probably bumps the effective Encounter Level by at least three or four points. And there's also potential to drive a wedge between the Big X and his "allies". And of course, this isn't an actual game, so The Giant can "fudge the rolls". I'm just saying that I wouldn't throw that at a party like the Order without giving them some very big guns of their own.

[Nith]

Hmm... do "spells of the caliber" refer to [Evil] spells? At least some of the Symbol line spells are Evil, as well as Animate Dead et. al. That being said, I don't think Xykon actually uses that many... Epic spells would leave a lingering aura for days, but that hardly counts as "most commonly". Even Xykon can't have more than three per day, and at least one slot goes into Epic Mage Armor. Spells that are 10th-level or higher also leave auras like that, but I don't think metamagic counts.

Does the core rules really mention stuff like "background radiation" type residual evidence of spells? I haven't played much DnD, my impression was that it was something not mentioned by the rules so the Giant could just make it up.

[hamishspence]

Does the core rules really mention stuff like "background radiation" type residual evidence of spells?

Yes.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm

Lingering Aura
A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:

Spell or Object
Aura Power
Functioning spell (spell level)
3rd or lower: Faint
4th-6th: Moderate
7th-9th: Strong
10th+ : Overwhelming

Duration
Faint- 1d6 rounds
Moderate- 1d6 minutes
Strong- 1d6×10 minutes
Overwhelming- 1d6 days

So, any of Xykon's epic spells will leave an aura for days, as will any spells metamagiced up to 10th level or high.

[danielxcutter]

Does the core rules really mention stuff like "background radiation" type residual evidence of spells? I haven't played much DnD, my impression was that it was something not mentioned by the rules so the Giant could just make it up.

Detect Magic specifically mentions the "10th-level spells leave auras for 1d6 days" part, so yeah. Epic spells count as 10th-level spells for a lot of things.

[Ghosty]

Yes.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm

Lingering Aura
A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:...

Is there a lingering aura around magic items? Such as the dart---if it, or the poison on it, were magical---that Lien parried away with her spear? If they find the dart, perhaps that may be a clue to the Invisible Entities identity?

[Mariele]

After 30 minutes, Elan realized that the game was, indeed, called "Go". Bardic tradition just forbade him from giving up the spirit of Lou Costello.

Heh heh heh.

Getting exciting. Can't wait to see what happens next. I find Roy's comment to be interesting... it's not done in the way the usual lampshade hanging remarks are, so I think it has to be significant, especially with Oona's earlier remark about lots of twists and turns.

[hamishspence]

Is there a lingering aura around magic items? Such as the dart---if it, or the poison on it, were magical---that Lien parried away with her spear? If they find the dart, perhaps that may be a clue to the Invisible Entities identity?

An undestroyed magic item would follow the regular Detect Magic rules for magic items.

[bunsen_h]

An undestroyed magic item would follow the regular Detect Magic rules for magic items.

What are the current rules regarding whether such things as darts and arrows are destroyed during use? Used to be a 50% chance if they didn't hit, 100% if they did, and I'd think that the parry/block would count as a hit.

[brian 333]

If they are non-magical poisoned darts their residual magical signature will be somewhat weaker.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unless the poison is magical. Which it probably is, since it took down O-Chul "My CON is nearing 30" the Paladin.

[hamishspence]

What are the current rules regarding whether such things as darts and arrows are destroyed during use? Used to be a 50% chance if they didn't hit, 100% if they did, and I'd think that the parry/block would count as a hit.

"Ammunition-type" weapons are destroyed 100% of the time on a hit, 50% on a miss:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#ammunition

But darts, aren't listed as ammunition, they're listed as Thrown Weapons.

Shuriken is the main example of "thrown weapon that counts as ammunition".

[danielxcutter]

Unless the poison is magical. Which it probably is, since it took down O-Chul "My CON is nearing 30" the Paladin.

I actually don't think there are that many magical or supernatural poisons. And even ignoring the possibility of O'Chul simply rolling horribly, there are plenty of high-DC, extraordinary(to my knowledge) poisons. While I doubt the Giant is actually using one of these, since he barely even looks at the rulebooks these days, there's still enough to prove a point:


Megapede Venom: DC 44
Svakalor Venom, Greater: DC 34
Colossal Scorpion Venom: DC 33
Greensickness: DC 33
Colossal Spider Venom: DC 28


And so on. Interestingly, among the five un-errata'd highest DC poisons, three are from Dungeonscape - you know, the book the Giant helped write? And considering the existence of abilities that can increase the DC further, such as the Poison Expert (Complete Scoundrel) or Venomous Strike (Drow of the Underdark) feats... Yeah, it's not that unlikely at the level they are.