OOTS #1206 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Schroeswald]

This comic is so good, I love what’s going on so much.

[Cygnia]

To be fair, Durkon -- you WERE dead at the time of being assigned said mission...

[Crusher]

Poor RC, friend-zoned by his deity.

35 years, eh?

[Coyote0715]

Poor Redcloak. Not even his god wants to talk to him.

[The_Weirdo]

I mean, Durkon was dead at the time. That ought to count for something...

[homersolo]

My guess is that the next comic quickly discloses that he died and then met Thor. Given the message from another who died and came back {Don’t mess this up) I wonder if Redcloak will “die” to discuss it with his god. I’m guessing no but am interested to see how he puts it to his god.

[Knick]

Oh, poor Redcloak. I wonder if a chat with his god is what he needs to break with Xykon? Of course, it means dying.

[Griffincat]

If Durkon pulls this off, the Dark One + Thor et al will yield the Minnesota Vikings color scheme, which amuses me. (That's American football, global readers.)

[Kantaki]

Poor Redcloak...
Even Jirix got further on that count.
Huh. Jirix. Durkon. HPoH.
Neither of them was alive when talking to their deity.
Maybe that is the problem.

[Murk]

Poor Redcloak :smallsigh:

[Dragonus45]

I’m curious, the Dark One seems a bit petty and uncaring for the plight of the common goblinoid. Is it perhaps already aware of quidity but prefers to hold all the gods, and all of the multiverse, hostage because that’s means being in charge as opposed to a more reliable way to gain respect for goblins as a whole? Is Redcloak gonna become a new purple god for the sake of his goblin brothers and sisters at the end of the story?

[Quebbster]

Refreshingly civilized.
So of course I wonder what is going to mess things up...

Nice touch with the Stone Shape too.

[declinator]

It probably speaks to my lack of imagination that I never thought of using "Wall of Stone" to create outdoor furniture. Does this take extra practice or skill points in sculpting, or is this the basic spell?

[Fyraltari]

Oh my, this is precious. Poor unloved kinslaying Redcloak.

[Quild]

Durkon seems terrible at explaining the situation, but things are going better than I'd expect.

[Arathorne]

Love it, love it, love it. Great dialog between these two, thank you Mr Burlew for the entertaining read this morning. :smallbiggrin:

[Going Hereward]

It probably speaks to my lack of imagination that I never thought of using "Wall of Stone" to create outdoor furniture. Does this take extra practice or skill points in sculpting, or is this the basic spell?

Not really.

Using Wall of Stone to only make a Wall of Stone is pretty rare in my experience.

[Fyraltari]

It probably speaks to my lack of imagination that I never thought of using "Wall of Stone" to create outdoor furniture. Does this take extra practice or skill points in sculpting, or is this the basic spell?

This came up on te forums during the last battle with the vampires. Turns out that Wall of Stone has a surprisingly vague description.

I do wonder how Reddie plans on explaining the new table to Xykon.

[hamishspence]

I'm a little surprised at first that Redcloak and the Dark One have never talked, but it does make sense.

[The_Weirdo]

This came up on te forums during the last battle with the vampires. Turns out that Wall of Stone has a surprisingly vague description.

I do wonder how Reddie plans on explaining the new table to Xykon.

He'll likely just destroy it.

[Fyraltari]

Each new mention of how aloof TDO is compared to the other gods makes me more confident that he and Reddie won’t see eye to eye in the end.


He'll likely just destroy it.
Possibly but I find « what we can’t have lunch outside, now? » to be a funnier possibility.

[TwistedSultan]

I’m curious, the Dark One seems a bit petty and uncaring for the plight of the common goblinoid. Is it perhaps already aware of quidity but prefers to hold all the gods, and all of the multiverse, hostage because that’s means being in charge as opposed to a more reliable way to gain respect for goblins as a whole? Is Redcloak gonna become a new purple god for the sake of his goblin brothers and sisters at the end of the story?

I think this would be a Very interesting way to use Redcloak's character. Seeing how much he has done for all of goblin-kind, I can see it working for him too. He has 3 of the goblin races that know who he is and one very large,very blue city full of goblins that could be a good starting worship base.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Durkon pulls this off, the Dark One + Thor et al will yield the Minnesota Vikings color scheme, which amuses me. (That's American football, global readers.) I can get behind that.

Nice touch with the Stone Shape too. Yes, and that little cooperative move by these two spell casters to make the table just right is a nice bit of 'we'll negotiate in good faith' foreshadowing, I think. (Or maybe I am reading something into this.)
It probably speaks to my lack of imagination that I never thought of using "Wall of Stone" to create outdoor furniture. How do you think that Stonehenge got built? :smallbiggrin:
I'm a little surprised at first that Redcloak and the Dark One have never talked, but it does make sense. I get the idea that TDO provides one-way communication toward Reddie. the red cloak fills the cleric with understanding of The Plan. That's what the red cloak is all about. (But maybe one needs to have read SOD for that to make sense? It is too bad that this isn't as clear in the main strip as is depicted in the prequel ... )

Love this strip. I was grinning ear to ear by the end of the last panel. :smallbiggrin:

[Living Oxymoron]

Poor Redcloak. He is clearly in the "priestzone".:smallfrown:

[deltamire]

Redcloak shortening the seat like he's removing an extra cushion from a chair is so, so good. The way his eyepatch sits over his eyes like the stylised eyebrows OOTS has sometimes makes me incorrectly think he looks sad.

Durkon is doing really well; nearly two whole comics without being mushed into paste! I don't think the Order has ever been this civil with any major antagonist - aside maybe from Tarquin, though his whole shtick was being civil and polite to the heroes (though that didn't survive more than a couple encounters).

Also, regarding the last couple of panels and the gag - some forms of parasocial relationships between clerics / anyone of a particular amount of faith and gods must be worryingly common in this universe. If you are directly relying on your gods for magic, are constantly hearing stories about them and have a certain bond or connection with them, but don't actually interact or know them at all . . . Yikes. That ain't good.

[Peelee]

Durkon seems terrible at explaining the situation, but things are going better than I'd expect.
Imean, it is a bit hard to explain, especially if you've only had like a day or two to figure out and few, if any, people to bounce ideas off.

Each new mention of how aloof TDO is compared to the other gods makes me more confident that he and Reddie won’t see eye to eye in the end.
Imean, Durkon never talked to Thor until he died, so I wouldn't really call TDO aloof. Jirix got to talk to him in the afterlife, after all, so TDO's behavior seems par for the course there.

[Fyraltari]

Seeing how much he has done for all of goblin-kind
So far he has lead two clans to extinction and conquered one city.

[Fan67]

I wonder why Durkon didn't say he was dead? Red Cloak knows his sidekick hobgoblin cleric spoke with the Dark One while he was dead... and delivered "don't screw up, no pressure though" message. Red Cloak could relate to the special circumstances.

[Syncrogti]

Oh this is Rich! so funny, the body language and verbiage. so Rich.

[Fyraltari]

I wonder why Durkon didn't say he was dead? Red Cloak knows his sidekick hobgoblin cleric spoke with the Dark One while he was dead... and delivered "don't screw up, no pressure though" message. Red Cloak could relate to the special circumstances.

Because every comic that does not end on a punchline ends on a cliffhanger and you don’t want those in your negotiations.

[JustAnotherSoul]

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon...

They're just sitting in the open. Naturally this basically shouldn't be able to work... Durkon doesn't, strictly speaking, have any good bargaining chips apart from "My god said yours wouldn't survive until the next world!"

[KorvinStarmast]

Imean, it is a bit hard to explain, especially if you've only had like a day or two to figure out and few, if any, people to bounce ideas off. Off camera, hasn't Durkon had some time to discuss this all with Minrah? She was there for the Thor Exposition bits ...

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon
My guess is Oona... or maybe, if I get my wish, Oona and Greyview. :smallsmile:

[Mic_128]

Each new mention of how aloof TDO is compared to the other gods makes me more confident that he and Reddie won’t see eye to eye in the end.

Thor's just as aloof. Durkon was even complaining that Thor never answered his commune spells.

[factotum]

This came up on te forums during the last battle with the vampires. Turns out that Wall of Stone has a surprisingly vague description.

Well, it does say in the SRD description:

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire.

The only thing that's a bit vague about that is what "almost" any shape consists of--my guess is that it's worded that way because the ultimate answer is "Your DM will decide how fancy you can be", so the wording gives them leeway to refuse that 1/200th scale model of Mount Rushmore you planned on creating...

[Fyraltari]

I mean, Durkon never talked to Thor until he died, so I wouldn't really call TDO aloof. Jirix got to talk to him in the afterlife, after all, so TDO's behavior seems par for the course there.

Thor's just as aloof. Durkon was even complaining that Thor never answered his commune spells.
That’s true but the text keeps pointing it out and we’ve seen Hel talk to her high priest directly while Thrym could get his people to mobilize pretty dang fast.

Also when TDO sent a message to Redcloak he sent a grand total of two sentences.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Wow, Durkon's making progress. At this pace we'll be wrapping this whole series up 3 comics from now.

[The_Weirdo]

Possibly but I find « what we can’t have lunch outside, now? » to Ben a funnier possibility.

"In -30C weather?"
"Yes."
"With uneven stools?"
"What, we can't call up people from other races for lunch?"
"I don't see any food there."
"Invisible yak meat."
"Invisible yak?"
"Yes."
"Okay."

[littlebum2002]

This is, by a large margin, my favorite storyline of the entire series. It doesn't speak very highly of Roy's leadership that he vetoed one of the best ideas a team member has had.

[dancrilis]

I am beginning to wonder if The Dark One actually exists rather then merely being the equivalent of a cosmic force that goblins believe in - or if he did exist if he still exists.

[Peelee]

That’s true but the text keeps pointing it out and we’ve seen Hel talk to her high priest directly while Thrym could get his people to mobilize pretty dang fast.
Hel seems to be an outlier there. Having a grand total one one cleric may have something to do with it, I dunno. My best guess for Thrym is he communicated in a similar way Odin did for the Durkon's prophecy. Anyway, for most gods, if their clerics are doing more or less things in the gods' interests, I don't imagine they have much reason to chat.

Also when TDO sent a message to Redcloak he sent a grand total of two sentences.
Durkon isn't doing a fantastic job relaying Thor's message so far, so I don't think we can completely discount Jirix editorializing some.

[Zhorn]

Poor Redcloak. He is clearly in the "priestzone".:smallfrown:
Acolyte-zoned? note sure what the equivalent of the closeness-hierarchy when it comes to worshippers and gods.
Technically speaking Redcloak isn't even really a 'chosen' is he?
He was just the goblin to grab the mantle next

[Mic_128]

That’s true but the text keeps pointing it out and we’ve seen Hel talk to her high priest directly while Thrym could get his people to mobilize pretty dang fast.

Also when TDO sent a message to Redcloak he sent a grand total of two sentences.

Hel had an overly complex, time-sensitive plan that she needed to directly converse with Durkula to pull off. Hel, she was about to just kill Durkon directly, something against the rules of the gods because she was just that desperate. Same with why Thrym was mobilising his people so fast. That and he really wanted to be Hel's, er, companion.

TDO has a plan, but at this point of it, there's nothing he can do to guide or help. He's done basically all he can.

[Peelee]

Possibly but I find « what we can’t have lunch outside, now? » to Ben a funnier possibility.


"In -30C weather?"
"Yes."
"With uneven stools?"
"What, we can't call up people from other races for lunch?"
"I don't see any food there."
"Invisible yak meat."
"Invisible yak?"
"Yes."
"Okay."

I prefer:
Possibly but I find « what we can’t have lunch outside, now? » to Ben a funnier possibility.
Xykon: An outside lunch. At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen!?
Redcloak: Yes.
Xykon: May I see it?
Redcloak: ...No.

[Fyraltari]

This is, by a large margin, my favorite storyline of the entire series. It doesn't speak very highly of Roy's leadership that he vetoed one of the best ideas a team member has had.
Oh this isn’t going to end well, I assure you.

I am beginning to wonder if The Dark One actually exists rather then merely being the equivalent of a cosmic force that goblins believe in - or if he did exist if he still exists.
We have two eyewitness testimonies of him, though.

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon...
Roy won’t move until people start fighting. He’s probably pissed at Durkon but collected enough not to sink the boat he’s been shoved into just because he liked the other boat better.

Who else thinks Durkon refused to go inside because he and Minrah have an escape strategy planned and it requires him to stay outdoor?

Say can you grab stuff when you’re cloudwalking? Like a friend?

[Schroeswald]

I am beginning to wonder if The Dark One actually exists rather then merely being the equivalent of a cosmic force that goblins believe in - or if he did exist if he still exists.

I don’t understand how that’s even possible, Thor has said he exists, his understanding of how gods work gives no reason he wouldn’t, we know someone talked to him a month or two back, what possible evidence besides being a bit quiet could you have for that?

[dancrilis]

We have two eyewitness testimonies of him, though.


Yea that is a wrinkle in the idea alright which I have not fully resolved yet - the related idea is that The Dark One is real but isn't were Redcloak gets his spells from (that being either the Mantle itself or from his own belief).

EDIT:

I don’t understand how that’s even possible, Thor has said he exists, his understanding of how gods work gives no reason he wouldn’t, we know someone talked to him a month or two back, what possible evidence besides being a bit quiet could you have for that?
'Beginning to wonder' is not the same as 'I have evidence'.

[Hiro Quester]

It doesn't seem hard for Redcloak to change the one-way communication. It certainly would not require his death.

My bet is that in the next few strips we'll see RC cast commune or contact higher plane to ask his God some questions.

[2D8HP]

Off camera, hasn't Durkon had some time to discuss this all with Minrah? She was there for the Thor Exposition bits ...

My guess is Oona... or maybe, if I get my wish, Oona and Greyview. :smallsmile:


Yes!

Hate is too strong of a word, but I didn't see the point of the :mitd: character at first, but now The Monster in the Darkness has grown on me.

Otherwise, the only thing I dislike is a deficit of Greyview, and the looming dread of the strip ending.


There's been a lack of Greyview lately and MOAR GREYVIEW! (and Oona) is always welcome


Hel seems to be an outlier there. Having a grand total one one cleric may have something to do with it, I dunno. My best guess for Thrym is he communicated in a similar way Odin did for the Durkon's prophecy. Anyway, for most gods, if their clerics are doing more or less things in the gods' interests, I don't imagine they have much reason to chat.

Durkon isn't doing a fantastic job relaying Thor's message so far, so I don't think we can completely discount Jirix editorializing some.


Maybe because Durkula wasn't fully alive?

[hroþila]

That was hilarious.

Humour aside, obviously you have to wonder about the lack of direct communication between Redcloak and the Dark One. One theory was that it was Redcloak himself avoiding direct communication out of fear that the Dark One disapproved of some of his actions (or that the Dark One didn't disapprove of some of his actions, which could be equally devastating depending on how Redcloak perceives his patron god). This strip pretty much refutes that theory. It's true that Thor didn't communicate with Durkon until the latter was dead, but still, this is likely to be significant and it might well suggest Redcloak and the Dark One might be at odds in the future.

Oh my, this is precious. Poor unloved kinslaying Redcloak.
Sheesh, you slay your kin only once and some people just won't let it drop.

[Hiro Quester]

I think its funny that Durkon creates tall seats for himself and RC. RC says "too high" and fixes the height.

Durkon sits on a high seat, with his short legs dangling. But by doing so, they are equivalent heights for the negotiation. Smart move, Durkon.

[Squire Doodad]

I think Durkon should have just taken those crayon drawings with him and shown them to Redcloak

[Peelee]

I think Durkon should have just taken those crayon drawings with him and shown them to Redcloak

That'd never work. Redcloak would demand at least macaroni drawings.

[The_Weirdo]

I prefer:
Xykon: An outside lunch. At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen!?
Redcloak: Yes.
Xykon: May I see it?
Redcloak: ...No.

"Aurora Borealis? (etc.)"
"Yes."
"Can I see it?"
"..." *Points*

[Fyraltari]

Hel seems to be an outlier there. Having a grand total one one cleric may have something to do with it, I dunno. My best guess for Thrym is he communicated in a similar way Odin did for the Durkon's prophecy. Anyway, for most gods, if their clerics are doing more or less things in the gods' interests, I don't imagine they have much reason to chat.
But Redcloak is his high priest and has been on his most important mission ever for three and a half decades.


Durkon isn't doing a fantastic job relaying Thor's message so far, so I don't think we can completely discount Jirix editorializing some.
Jirix was (allegedly) quoting verbatim while Durkon was explained the situation and told to improvise.

Hel had an overly complex, time-sensitive plan that she needed to directly converse with Durkula to pull off. Hel, she was about to just kill Durkon directly, something against the rules of the gods because she was just that desperate. Same with why Thrym was mobilising his people so fast. That and he really wanted to be Hel's, er, companion.

TDO has a plan, but at this point of it, there's nothing he can do to guide or help. He's done basically all he can.
He could tell Redcloak where the Gate is. Loki told Hilgya where to find Durkon and I don’t think a mortal’s defenses (even an epic rogue) could stop a god’s sight.

Yea that is a wrinkle in the idea alright
Quite.

[littlebum2002]

I think Durkon is trying too hard to be accurate. Just say that there are 3 pantheons, and 4 pantheons are needed to contain the Snarl, and TDO is his own pantheon. That would make sense for pretty much every cleric in the world, rather than having to explain what quiddities are.

[Yarrun]

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon...

They're just sitting in the open. Naturally this basically shouldn't be able to work... Durkon doesn't, strictly speaking, have any good bargaining chips apart from "My god said yours wouldn't survive until the next world!"

Redcloak's core goals has always been the approval of his god and the prosperity of Goblinkind. Durkon's offering him a way to get the latter without having to work with Xykon, whom Redcloak has always hated.

[mjasghar]

I'm a little surprised at first that Redcloak and the Dark One have never talked, but it does make sense.

Talking implies a 2 way conversation
The Dark One has talked AT Redcloak, however.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak's core goals has always been the approval of his god and the prosperity of Goblinkind. Durkon's offering him a way to get the latter without having to work with Xykon, whom Redcloak has always hated.
I take it you haven’t read Start of Darkness?

[understatement]

Oh geez, I read this comic and now I'm grinning so hard. Go, Durkon, go, don't get killed.

Never have I ever seen the word "priestzoned" used seriously before.

Nice table too; if Roy saw it he'd understand that diplomacy is going on, while if Xykon sees it there is absolutely no hope for anyone.

[dancrilis]

He could tell Redcloak where the Gate is.

No he apparently cannot, panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html).

[Worldsong]

For Thor's sake Durkon, throw the goblin a bone and tell him you had to die before your god would talk to you.


That was hilarious.

Humour aside, obviously you have to wonder about the lack of direct communication between Redcloak and the Dark One. One theory was that it was Redcloak himself avoiding direct communication out of fear that the Dark One disapproved of some of his actions (or that the Dark One didn't disapprove of some of his actions, which could be equally devastating depending on how Redcloak perceives his patron god). This strip pretty much refutes that theory. It's true that Thor didn't communicate with Durkon until the latter was dead, but still, this is likely to be significant and it might well suggest Redcloak and the Dark One might be at odds in the future.

Sheesh, you slay your kin only once and some people just won't let it drop.

It was the one time! It's not like he made a habit of it or something.

[Zhorn]

Xykon: An outside lunch. At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen!?
Redcloak: Yes.
Xykon: May I see it?
Redcloak: ...No.
Heh, points for a steam hams reference.

"Aurora Borealis? (etc.)"
"Yes."
"Can I see it?"
"..." *Points*
Gold

[bengator]

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon...

They're just sitting in the open. Naturally this basically shouldn't be able to work... Durkon doesn't, strictly speaking, have any good bargaining chips apart from "My god said yours wouldn't survive until the next world!"

I have to think that the Bugbear that had the scroll that went wandering off when Durkon showed up is going to alert someone, whether on purpose or inadvertently. He was gone for the discussion and may not know exactly who Durkon is in context of past encounters, but I would think a random dwarf showing up and chatting with Redcloak would be odd enough to be reported to someone, even if just in passing conversation. "You know, I just saw the weirdest thing . . . "

[littlebum2002]

"In -30C weather?"
"Yes."
"With uneven stools?"
"What, we can't call up people from other races for lunch?"
"I don't see any food there."
"Invisible yak meat."
"Invisible yak?"
"Yes."
"Okay."

Aurora Borealis!? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen!?


-Yes!


EDIT: Ninjad!

[Squire Doodad]

Oh geez, I read this comic and now I'm grinning so hard. Go, Durkon, go, don't get killed.

"Go Durkon! Know? Xykon won't!" :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

He could tell Redcloak where the Gate is. Loki told Hilgya where to find Durkon and I don’t think a mortal’s defenses (even an epic rogue) could stop a god’s sight.

Quite.

IIRC the gods cannot directly perceive the rifts or the Gates (unfortunately I do not recall where this was stated. Crayons of Time or Thor explaining the history of past worlds, probably), so The Dark One could not provide Red Cloak with this information unless some other Goblinoid knew it and relayed it to him.

They can probably feel the structure of the world weakening in some fashion, so they know approximately when it's time to pull the plug and start planning on the next world, but they don't get direct knowledge of where the individual Rifts are unless there's a Cleric on site to provide that direct connection to view with. (Or the Cleric gets Snarled - they probably know what that feels like and if you have a Cleric get eaten by the Snarl, as a god, that's presumably worth looking into the area where they disappeared.)

[Squire Doodad]

IIRC the gods cannot directly perceive the rifts or the Gates (unfortunately I do not recall where this was stated. Crayons of Time or Thor explaining the history of past worlds, probably), so The Dark One could not provide Red Cloak with this information unless some other Goblinoid knew it and relayed it to him.

They can probably feel the structure of the world weakening in some fashion, so they know approximately when it's time to pull the plug and start planning on the next world, but they don't get direct knowledge of where the individual Rifts are unless there's a Cleric on site to provide that direct connection to view with. (Or the Cleric gets Snarled - they probably know what that feels like and if you have a Cleric get eaten by the Snarl, as a god, that's presumably worth looking into the area where they disappeared.)

The Dark One in particular has comparatively limited understanding of his god senses and the other gods have been avoiding letting him know where the gates are.

[knag]

Thor's yella. So's his pa.

Who you callin' yella?!

In an alternate world long since destroyed by the Snarl, this lead to a shootout at the OOTS corral.

[Fyraltari]

if Xykon sees it there is absolutely no hope for anyone.
That’s true of most things, really.

No he apparently cannot, panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html).
That’s my point, though. TDO could tell Redcloak but he doesn’t. Fishy.


It was the one time! It's not like he made a habit of it or something.
Well, you know what they say about goats...

[GrayDeath]

Amazing.

Deep, meaningful and understated, yet at the same time funny to no end.

Too bad it cant last forever (but I for one hope for 3 more comics of deep, peaceful talks, one for each Quiddity^^).

[Peelee]

That’s my point, though. TDO could tell Redcloak but he doesn’t. Fishy.

I see no reason to not take Redcloak at his word and assume TDO does not know where the Gate is.

[Cirin]

I am beginning to wonder if The Dark One actually exists rather then merely being the equivalent of a cosmic force that goblins believe in - or if he did exist if he still exists.

OotS seems to generally run on the rules of D&D cosmologies.

Under those rules, a dead god can't grant spells. If the Dark One was a true deity at one point and died for any reason, then suddenly his priests would be unable to renew their spells daily, they'd KNOW there was a major problem.

Thor also seemed to think he was quite real, and Thor seemed to be trying to be completely honest with Durkon, so I'd expect him to be real enough that Thor would describe him as such honestly.

The only gap in Thor's knowledge seemed to be the world inside the Snarl's rift. That was something that the gods don't seem to know about.

[The MunchKING]

Say can you grab stuff when you’re cloudwalking? Like a friend?

Only if it's something a cloud could pick up, IIRC.

[understatement]

Okay, I finally realized what this reminds me of. It's like back in elementary school, when two kids share a table and one opens carrot sticks for lunch and the other has gourmet sushi.

Also, confirmation that the Dark One is full of sketch.

[DLcygnet]

"Also, I had ta be dead fer a bit."
"Oh, yeah, that'd do it."

Geez Durkon, quit neg'ing Redcloak and exploiting his insecurities.

[Peelee]

Okay, I finally realized what this reminds me of. It's like back in elementary school, when two kids share a table and one opens carrot sticks for lunch and the other has gourmet sushi.

Also, confirmation that the Dark One is full of sketch.

I don't get the analogy. How so?

[Fyraltari]

I see no reason to not take Redcloak at his word and assume TDO does not know where the Gate is.

That’s not what Redcloak says though. He said the non-verbal link through which he is granted spells doesn’t allow for tDO to tell him where the Gate is. And that’s fine. But we know it’s possible for gods such as Hel, Thrym and Loki to give that kind of information to their followers. That’s the fishy part.

[dancrilis]

That’s not what Redcloak says though. He said the non-verbal link through which he is granted spells doesn’t allow for tDO to tell him where the Gate is. And that’s fine. But we know it’s possible for gods such as Hel, Thrym and Loki to give that kind of information to their followers. That’s the fishy part.

As I said panel 3 'our god can't provide information that he himself doesn't know', 'other gods have colluded to hide the existance of the Gates even from his divine senses'.

No part of that sounds like 'The Dark One does know but won't tell me' to me at least.

[Peelee]

That’s not what Redcloak says though. He said the non-verbal link through which he is granted spells doesn’t allow for tDO to tell him where the Gate is. And that’s fine. But we know it’s possible for gods such as Hel, Thrym and Loki to give that kind of information to their followers. That’s the fishy part.

They may have answered Communes at critical junctures, for all we know. I suspect Thor would have been willing to answer a Commune once Durkon found out about the Snarl, but if he never cast it at that point because Thor never answered previously, what could Thor do about it? Redcloak could be in the same boat - TDO could be totally willing to actually answer a Commune at this point, but if RC never casts it, it's moot.

It's not a pretty theory, but it does resolve that issue. Anyway, even if RC did cast it and TDO answered, RC didn't say TDO isn't telling him where the Gate is because TDO isn't talking to him, he said TDO can't reveal anything TDO doesn't know. That's why panel 3 was called out in particular.

[understatement]

I don't get the analogy. How so?

A visible case of parental (deific) preference. Durkon gets the sushi, Redcloak reveals he had carrots. This is not a line I ever thought I'd type out in my lifetime.

eta: grammar

[Fyraltari]

As I said panel 3 'our god can't provide information that he himself doesn't know', 'other gods have colluded to hide the existance of the Gates even from his divine senses'.

No part of that sounds like 'The Dark One does know but won't tell me' to me at least.

Oops my bad I clicked on the link without really reading it.

[Peelee]

A visible case of parental (deific) preference. Durkon gets the sushi, Redcloak reveals he had carrots. This is not a line I ever thought I'd type out in my lifetime.

eta: grammar

Again, I'm not seeing it. Thor talked to Durkon when Durkon died. TDO talked to Jirix when Jirix died. When has Redcloak died? Durkon even commented, while talking to Thor, that Thor never answered Durkon's Communes.

That's not preferential. That's "Redcloak hasn't gone for a face-to-face meeting on account of having continuously lived."

[FlawedParadigm]

I like how Durkon has been entirely too polite to ask where the eye patch came from. He knows Redcloak didn't have it the first time they met, and the second time Durkon was presently not Durkon, so this would have been his first chance to comment as himself.

[Dausuul]

That’s not what Redcloak says though. He said the non-verbal link through which he is granted spells doesn’t allow for tDO to tell him where the Gate is.
You're only looking at the first panel of #1039 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). Read the next two. Redcloak very clearly states that tDO does not know the location of the Gate and that's why Redcloak can't locate it via clerical magic.

While it is possible that tDO does in fact know and is concealing the information, I don't see any evidence that this is the case. All available information suggests that Redcloak is telling the truth on this score.

I do think tDO is not nearly as benevolent as Redcloak makes him out to be--I suspect he is much more interested in increasing his own power than in the welfare of goblinoids--but then Redcloak himself is not as benevolent as he makes himself out to be.

[t209]

Any irony with Durkon and Red Cloak since dwarves are usually the one who would disdain monster races, be it playable characters or not.
I mean
his friendship with Roy was because he seek diplomatic solution with Orcs.

[understatement]

Again, I'm not seeing it. Thor talked to Durkon when Durkon died. TDO talked to Jirix when Jirix died. When has Redcloak died? Durkon even commented, while talking to Thor, that Thor never answered Durkon's Communes.

That's not preferential. That's "Redcloak hasn't gone for a face-to-face meeting on account of having continuously lived."

The analogy -- poor as it was -- was from the body language/expressions of both of them in the last four panels. "I'm sure he's just busy." "I know, I try to give him space." Plus the fact they're sitting at a literal park-esque table.

***

Is the Dark One not able to, I don't know, peek through each of the dungeon doors and see if there's a Gate at the end?

[Fyraltari]

I like how Durkon has been entirely too polite to ask where the eye patch came from. He knows Redcloak didn't have it the first time they met, and the second time Durkon was presently not Durkon, so this would have been his first chance to comment as himself.

The Giant said O-Chul told them. That’s why Redcloak had an eye-patch in the pyramid’s illusion but on the wrong eye (if I’m not mistaken).

[Draconi Redfir]

oof. poor redcloak. Not sure if this is analogous to a father/son relationship, or a spouse/spouse one. maybe both in different ways. Still hurts either way you look at it.

still, hopefully he's willing to listen.

[Peelee]

The analogy -- poor as it was -- was from the body language/expressions of both of them in the last four panels. "I'm sure he's just busy." "I know, I try to give him space." Plus the fact they're sitting at a literal park-esque table.

***

Is the Dark One not able to, I don't know, peek through each of the dungeon doors and see if there's a Gate at the end?

Imean, Thor apparently wasn't aware of the planet in the rifts, despite it being plainly visibly to anyone who just looks in the rift, so I would assume that, for whatever reason, TDO doesn't know where the Gate is.

[SlashDash]

Man, that was a good one. Funny, despite this being a civil conversation, Durkon is actually doing an abysmal job - though it's in character.
Asking Redcloak to seal the game means essentially getting Redcloak to give up his only ace up his sleeve. Even if Durkon makes the right offer (make Gobotpia a thing all nations will accept) - Redcloak has no reason to trust him yet and he would obviously not want to give up the entire plan just because Durkon asked.

There is no way for Durkon to succeed here. Even if this wasn't just the start of the book, it's obviously going to go badly very shortly.


The only question is : Will Durkon get to leave? Or will he be captured and stay with Team Evil for a while?

My guess is on him leaving, because there has to be a reason we haven't see Minrah with Durkon or Roy.
She's probably going to be getting him out of there if things go badly.

P.S
People keep saying that Jirik and Durkon were dead when talking to their gods. Hilga clearly wasn't dead when Loki told her where to find Durkon. The Odin priest clearly wasn't dead when he got the prophecy about Durkon.

Priests don't have to die to talk to their gods.



Durkon is doing really well; nearly two whole comics without being mushed into paste! I don't think the Order has ever been this civil with any major antagonist - aside maybe from Tarquin, though his whole shtick was being civil and polite to the heroes (though that didn't survive more than a couple encounters).

Elan was very civil with Sam

Durkon was civil with Miko

Belkar and Haley were civil with the monster in the dark

Celia (though not an official member) negotiated things with the thieves guild

Belkar was civil with the slavers in the desert

Durkon was civil with Malack

V was civil with Sabine

The order doesn't always rush guns blazing.



Who else thinks Durkon refused to go inside because he and Minrah have an escape strategy planned and it requires him to stay outdoor?

Say can you grab stuff when you’re cloudwalking? Like a friend?
My thoughts exactly. Though possibly not wanting to meet Xykon is also a plus. But yes, he has something planned with Minrah.



They can probably feel the structure of the world weakening in some fashion, so they know approximately when it's time to pull the plug and start planning on the next world, but they don't get direct knowledge of where the individual Rifts are unless there's a Cleric on site to provide that direct connection to view with. (Or the Cleric gets Snarled - they probably know what that feels like and if you have a Cleric get eaten by the Snarl, as a god, that's presumably worth looking into the area where they disappeared.)
Or... More simply... The gods know what their followers know. That includes the 12 animals that Hinjo and the Saphire guard worship.
They have the device which tells them which of the gates are destroyed.

So yes, the gods will know instantly if Kragor's gate is destroyed

[WindStruck]

The conversation sounds like a lover lamenting that their long distance relationship isn't going anywhere... But usually there's a reason for that.

Suddenly I've got a feeling. There is a reason Redcloak feels neglected. Maybe Jirax is the one on a holy mission of the Dark One.

[Fyraltari]

The conversation sounds like a lover lamenting that their long distance relationship isn't going anywhere... But usually there's a reason for that.

Suddenly I've got a feeling. There is a reason Redcloak feels neglected. Maybe Jirax is the one on a holy mission of the Dark One.

Or maybe Redcloak is just a tool in the eyes of his evil master.

[Schroeswald]

Imean, Thor apparently wasn't aware of the planet in the rifts, despite it being plainly visibly to anyone who just looks in the rift, so I would assume that, for whatever reason, TDO doesn't know where the Gate is.

I mean, I assume he didn’t have any reason to look, it requires being close to the rift, and I doubt any gods really wanted to check.

[Rockphed]

Well, it does say in the SRD description:

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire.

The only thing that's a bit vague about that is what "almost" any shape consists of--my guess is that it's worded that way because the ultimate answer is "Your DM will decide how fancy you can be", so the wording gives them leeway to refuse that 1/200th scale model of Mount Rushmore you planned on creating...

I am fairly certain that putting a stone head on a mountain is a viable use of both wall of stone and stone shape. I do agree that a 1/200th scale model is probably out.

[137beth]

Well, TDO did speak to Jirix when he was dead. Maybe he would speak with RC if he died. Then again, Hel was able to speak directly to HPoH even when he was up and walking around, so it's not clear exactly how much the gods are able to speak directly to the living.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I’m curious, the Dark One seems a bit petty and uncaring for the plight of the common goblinoid. Is it perhaps already aware of quiddity but prefers to hold all the gods, and all of the multiverse, hostage because that’s means being in charge as opposed to a more reliable way to gain respect for goblins as a whole? Is Redcloak gonna become a new purple god for the sake of his goblin brothers and sisters at the end of the story?

I suspect TDO is ignorant of pretty much everything to do with the deities, as he's never had New Deity Orientation, being without a sponsoring pantheon.

[Squire Doodad]

I suspect TDO is ignorant of pretty much everything to do with the deities, as he's never had New Deity Orientation, being without a sponsoring pantheon.

Yeah, it's like being tossed into a MMO and doing it solo the whole way through instead of being picked up by a guild.

[Knaight]

Yea that is a wrinkle in the idea alright which I have not fully resolved yet - the related idea is that The Dark One is real but isn't were Redcloak gets his spells from (that being either the Mantle itself or from his own belief).
Apart from the minor wrinkles of how there's no evidence for this hypothesis and several points of direct evidence against it it's a solid hypothesis.

[Squire Doodad]

Apart from the minor wrinkles of how there's no evidence for this hypothesis and several points of direct evidence against it it's a solid hypothesis.

...does that translate to "that'd be a great foundation for a game arc, but most likely not the case here"?

[Jasdoif]

The Giant said O-Chul told them. That’s why Redcloak had an eye-patch in the pyramid’s illusion but on the wrong eye (if I’m not mistaken).You are not mistaken.




Yes, the eyepatch is on the wrong eye. But how would Roy know Red Cloak even uses one at all now?Because O-Chul and Vaarsuvius both told him that Redcloak got stabbed in the eye. Just not which one. And the Order has almost no understanding of Redcloak's power level, such as whether or not he can cast 7th level clerical spells like Regeneration.

[kiapet]

You know, when this conversation started I wasn't expecting them to end up commiserating over lack of godly attention- though I suppose I should have with this comic! Poor Redcloak, his god's a distant lover patron.

[Doug Lampert]

That was hilarious.

Humour aside, obviously you have to wonder about the lack of direct communication between Redcloak and the Dark One. One theory was that it was Redcloak himself avoiding direct communication out of fear that the Dark One disapproved of some of his actions (or that the Dark One didn't disapprove of some of his actions, which could be equally devastating depending on how Redcloak perceives his patron god). This strip pretty much refutes that theory. It's true that Thor didn't communicate with Durkon until the latter was dead, but still, this is likely to be significant and it might well suggest Redcloak and the Dark One might be at odds in the future.

Sheesh, you slay your kin only once and some people just won't let it drop.

Evil overlord list entry #222. I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!"

Similarly, if you [SPOILER], you do not later get to complain about being lonely.

[Gift Jeraff]

Everyone's predicting that this is all going to go south, but what if it actually goes smoothly but then it turns out Durkon's offhand comment about the planet inside the rifts has completely derailed Thor's plan?

[jwhouk]

I suspect that TDO might not know about direct communications with his priests. That would be troublesome, tbh.

[Jasdoif]

Everyone's predicting that this is all going to go south....Well, they are at the North pole....

[Fyraltari]

I suspect TDO is ignorant of pretty much everything to do with the deities, as he's never had New Deity Orientation, being without a sponsoring pantheon.
Yes he has. He was on good terms with Loki, Tiamat and Rat for a while.

[dancrilis]

Yes he has. He was on good terms with Loki, Tiamat and Rat for a while.

Loki is a liar, Tiamet is a schemer and we don't know if Rat can be trusted either - one wouldn't be surprised if they were less helpful to him than he might have liked.

[Ron Miel]

Imean, Durkon never talked to Thor until he died,

Yes he did. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes he has. He was on good terms with Loki, Tiamat and Rat for a while.

Them answering a few questions is not an orientation seminar. Heck, it probably doesn't even count as a copy of Deities For Dummies.

[Snails]

Yes he has. He was on good terms with Loki, Tiamat and Rat for a while.

Because trusting Loki and Rat, those are gods whose word you can completely bank one.

I am not so certain about Tiamat, as she is not someone you would call two faced..but five faced!

[Fyraltari]

Loki is a liar, Tiamet is a schemer and we don't know if Rat can be trusted either - one wouldn't be surprised if they were less helpful to him than he might have liked.
They were trying to get into his good graces though and Rat was more helpful than he would have liked since his loose lips are the cause of this whole situation.

Them answering a few questions is not an orientation seminar. Heck, it probably doesn't even count as a copy of Deities For Dummies.
According to Redcloak it lasted quite a long time. Long enough for TDO to get frustrated with the goblins’ lack of progress despite his guidance.

[Psychronia]

This had me cracking up.
Yeah, you could probably mention the fact that you were dead at the time, Durkon. Jirix met the Dark One after he died too, right? It might not be that special. Also, the Dark One...might not know how to do it? Or think it's important to do it?

This negotiation is going more smoothly than I'd have even expected. That's great. A proper round table talks. Let's hope Xykon doesn't interrupt or something, I guess.
Laying all your cards on the table seems like the best solution for this diplomatic Redcloak.

[Skull the Troll]

Refreshingly civilized.
So of course I wonder what is going to mess things up...

Nice touch with the Stone Shape too.

Just waiting for Xykon to wander by and to land on them both....

[Jasdoif]

Them answering a few questions is not an orientation seminar. Heck, it probably doesn't even count as a copy of Deities For Dummies.Deities and Dummy Gods? ...Deities for Dummy Gods?

[Snails]

I suspect that TDO might not know about direct communications with his priests. That would be troublesome, tbh.

Surely could be arranged if TDO really cared and there may be limiting rules to work around, but the three pantheons needed to develop this ability in order to have godsmoots and speak via their high priests. At this point, poor Redcloak is probably only high priest out of several dozen on this world who has not gone to a godsmoot and channeled the word of their god. Sure, that is not the same of having a one on one chat, but I think it would count for something in RC's eyes.

[dancrilis]

Surely could be arranged if TDO really cared and there may be limiting rules to work around, but the three pantheons needed to develop this ability in order to have godsmoots and speak via their high priests. At this point, poor Redcloak is probably only high priest out of several dozen on this world who has not gone to a godsmoot and channeled the word of their god. Sure, that is not the same of having a one on one chat, but I think it would count for something in RC's eyes.

We have no reason to suspect that the high priests of the demigods of the south and west have channeled the word of their gods.

[understatement]

We have no reason to suspect that the high priests of the demigods of the south and west have channeled the word of their gods.

I thought demigods were only used in the case of a tiebreaker.

[Shale]

Durkon probably should have mentioned that he had to die to get that face-to-face with Thor; that's actually right in line with TDO's practice. In any case, I'll be shocked if this goes anywhere positive in the near future, but all it has to do is plant a seed in Redcloak's mind, something for him to eventually take back to his god. And he already showed that even the possibility of a permanent seal is new information for him -- and a new bargaining chip for TDO that he didn't know was available.

[Malfarian]

THANK YOU GIANT!

That was wonderful.

[Psyren]

I wonder why Durkon didn't say he was dead? Red Cloak knows his sidekick hobgoblin cleric spoke with the Dark One while he was dead... and delivered "don't screw up, no pressure though" message. Red Cloak could relate to the special circumstances.

Yeah this is the obvious omission.

Of course, neither Jirix nor Durkon are high priest of their respective deities, so Redcloak expecting a little special treatment isn't totally out of left field.


Durkon seems terrible at explaining the situation, but things are going better than I'd expect.

He summarized three strips of exposition in a single panel, I'd count that as exceptional explaining actually.

[Aidan]

Seeing Durkon and Redcloak talking like this is a very heart touching moment. For all of their differences, Durkon is probably the only member of the Order of the Stick that is capable of understanding Redcloak at all.

I am curious as to what is going to break up this conversation, I see three options, Xykon showing up, the rest of the OotS showing up, or Redcloak and Durkon getting into an argument.

Also any clue where Minrah is? She seemed to be following the majority of the Order going towards the ledge, but she does not show up there.

[LadyEowyn]

Awww. This is going well!

Rich does a good job of sketching the dynamics. Redcloak’s clearly willing to take advantage of an opportunity to gain the upper hand (“come inside where you can be captured”), but he’s not really perturbed when it doesn’t pan out. The interactions with the table are a minor power play (“oh, you dan make stuff! so can I”). He’s officially cagey (“I can neither confirm not deny...”) despite implicit acknowledgement that they’re both aware of what the Plan is, he’s analytical, but he’s willing to listen and drop his guard.

[understatement]

“oh, you dan make stuff! so can I”

How old are they, 55? Quinquagenarians these days...

***

I'd like to add that this is such a nice color palette, especially with the grey-blue background.

[Lord Raziere]

I just had a funny thought regarding this discussion:

Durkon: Of course, the only reason I was able to speak my god even once was because I died, so I guess its not that abnormal...
Redcloak: wait....you only spoke to your god directly because you died. Jirix only spoke to my god directly because he died. Can we...?
Durkon:....only speak to our deities when we die? I know Thor doesn't answer my Communes....if this normal I don't think its a good thing...
*Redcloak casts Commune, fails*
*both stare at each other*
*smash cut to Durkon trying to kill Redcloak*
Durkon: I'm sorry!! I promise to resurrect ye!!
Redcloak: Don't be this is needed! Stupid gods not paying attention to their followers!

[gatemansgc]

To be fair, Durkon -- you WERE dead at the time of being assigned said mission...

i'm surprised he didn't just come out and say that.

[jayem]

Given Durkon's promise about spell slots, and his usage of two of them now is it possible that Thor's done some arrangement so that mission related invocations are done on a different accounting.
The obvious for being that it treats Thor as being more than an automaton, the obvious con being the deviation from treating D&D rules as normative.

[deltamire]

Given Durkon's promise about spell slots, and his usage of two of them now is it possible that Thor's done some arrangement so that mission related invocations are done on a different accounting.
The obvious for being that it treats Thor as being more than an automaton, the obvious con being the deviation from treating D&D rules as normative.
Been a while, but isn't there 'dumb god laws' (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html) keeping Thor and other deities from involving themselves in conflicts like this? Thor and Odin were specifically talking about Hel's whole deal in that case, but I can't imagine tampering with the fundamental laws of the universe during one of the most critical parley in the history of this, or any of the worlds before not being wrapped up in red tape.

[P. G. Macer]

I may be reaching here, but was that a John Mulaney reference in the first panel?

In his “Street Smarts” bit, John talks about how as a schoolkid, child homicide detective J. J. Bittenbinder would lecture his class about what we’d now call stranger danger in avoiding kidnappers. One piece of advice was to never get taken to a “secondary location” due to the low rescue rate for kids, and John, being a comedian, taking it too literally as an adult, saying “You’re not taking me to no secondary location!”

If the Giant had had Durkon say “secondary” instead of ”second”, I’d say definitely, but I’m not sure given the wording here.

Aside from that, I love how in the bottom row we have the god/priest relationship compared to that of lovers. Great strip!

[Skull the Troll]

We have no reason to suspect that the high priests of the demigods of the south and west have channeled the word of their gods.

It's irrelevant. The Demigods of the North have not cast their collective vote. (and will not until a new table is made)

[Peelee]

I may be reaching here, but was that a John Mulaney reference in the first panel?

In his “Street Smarts” bit, John talks about how as a schoolkid, child homicide detective J. J. Bittenbinder would lecture his class about what we’d now call stranger danger in avoiding kidnappers. One piece of advice was to never get taken to a “secondary location” due to the low rescue rate for kids, and John, being a comedian, taking it too literally as an adult, saying “You’re not taking me to no secondary location!”

If the Giant had had Durkon say “secondary” instead of ”second”, I’d say definitely, but I’m not sure given the wording here.

Aside from that, I love how in the bottom row we have the god/priest relationship compared to that of lovers. Great strip!

I think it's less a John Mulaney reference and more a somewhat common knowledge.

[Mariele]

Everyone's predicting that this is all going to go south, but what if it actually goes smoothly but then it turns out Durkon's offhand comment about the planet inside the rifts has completely derailed Thor's plan?
This is something I'm wondering too, yeah.

Durkon's doing a pretty good job so far.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or maybe Redcloak is just a tool in the eyes of his evil master. You seem to have a few extra words there. :smallcool: (everything after tool)

... but what if it actually goes smoothly but then it turns out Durkon's offhand comment about the planet inside the rifts has completely derailed Thor's plan? I like where you are going with that.

Of course, neither Jirix nor Durkon are high priest of their respective deities, so Redcloak expecting a little special treatment isn't totally out of left field. He's got this nice artifact and he never ages. He has some bennies that go with the job.

i'm surprised he didn't just come out and say that. Might come up in a strip or two, this conversation just started.

[Ruck]

I think it's less a John Mulaney reference and more a somewhat common knowledge.

I immediately thought of this, which was well before the Mulaney special:

https://i.imgur.com/sdSTDIm.png

(Aside, Mr. Show was making fun of J.J. Bittenbinder twenty years before Kid Gorgeous.)

[Personification]

I may be reaching here, but was that a John Mulaney reference in the first panel?

In his “Street Smarts” bit, John talks about how as a schoolkid, child homicide detective J. J. Bittenbinder would lecture his class about what we’d now call stranger danger in avoiding kidnappers. One piece of advice was to never get taken to a “secondary location” due to the low rescue rate for kids, and John, being a comedian, taking it too literally as an adult, saying “You’re not taking me to no secondary location!”

If the Giant had had Durkon say “secondary” instead of ”second”, I’d say definitely, but I’m not sure given the wording here.

Aside from that, I love how in the bottom row we have the god/priest relationship compared to that of lovers. Great strip!

I literally came here to say almost this. While I don't think it is an intentional reference to the bit itself, it reminded me of it.

[JFour]

I don't have anything that insightful to add - just really liked this strip. Maybe it was the way they used their spells to make themselves more comfortable. Durkon trying to make Redcloak feel better. Anyway, it was great, thanks Giant.

[blunk]

So, a possibility:

1) Xykon discovers Redcloak's parlay with Durkon and considers it a betrayal
2) Conflict ensues; Durkon is killed (again, ha), MitD eats Redcloak and spits out the fauxlactery
3) MitD becomes almost independent (due to O-Chul's "how do your friends treat you" along with MitD realizing Xykon enchanted him) and steps up his sabotage
4) the Order is captured by orange/green and that plot develops partway, leaving the door open to them becoming allied or at least hands-off
5) Redcloak talks with The Dark One, who researches with Tiamat etc., confirms, gives Redcloak the sealing spell
6) Durkon fills in Thor about the planet in the rift; Thor and Odin are intrigued
7) the bugbear shaman raises Redcloak, who raises Durkon; they rejoin the Order
8) the Order make a side quest into the world within the rift on Thor's suggestion, accompanied by Redcloak (who is fleeing Xykon and can't be scried upon there)
9) something is revealed in Riftworld that gives a key to completely neutralizing the Snarl; the IFCC show more of their hand
10) the Order and Redcloak appear back at Monster Hollow and attack Xykon (who successfully enchants the MitD to fight for him)
11) the tide is turning against the Order (among other things, Belkar is dead and Varsuuvius is out of the action) when O-Chul (and possibly orange/green) appear; this breaks the MitD's enchantment and in an epic reveal he turns on Xykon
12) with the Order, Redcloak, MitD, and any number of reserve plot devices (Julia's help, the work of Roy's Archon, powers of Roy's sword, etc.), Xykon is defeated.

I'll also throw in a wildcard: the final fight happens in the fifth-gate dungeon, and the gate is destroyed early on in the battle. Some parallel drama is happening in Godspace (and of course the IFCC is complicating things, knocking Varsuuvius out as sealing is happening) and the Gate is resealed just moments before the gods are about to destroy the world. Maybe Redcloak pulls a Kraagor and the epilogue has the Order presenting Jirix with the red cloak (which will help him seal the remaining rifts) as a peace offering. Who knows?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Glad to see Durkon knows not to go to no secondary location. Also, Redcloak shouldn’t feel too bad, since he’d probably only meet his god face to face when he dies. It’s wild that he’s been pursuing the Plan for 35 years now.


I prefer:
Xykon: An outside lunch. At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen!?
Redcloak: Yes.
Xykon: May I see it?
Redcloak: ...No.

Well, Durkon, you may be an odd fellow, but you sure do negotiate a good deal.

[gerryq]

Seeing Durkon and Redcloak talking like this is a very heart touching moment. For all of their differences, Durkon is probably the only member of the Order of the Stick that is capable of understanding Redcloak at all.


Clerics seem to be a collegiate bunch, who will find time for a cup of tea with other clerics, even if their alignments are radically different. Malack was the same.

As for the death and resurrection thing, maybe Redcloak will pull a Cylon Number Three move...

[Snails]

We have no reason to suspect that the high priests of the demigods of the south and west have channeled the word of their gods.

I am sure Redcloak will feel much better about be left out along with a few high priests of demigods, the ones who were ignored and hung out in the antechamber while the real business took place.

[Traab]

Aww come on cloaky, you knew what kind of god you were worshiping when you started. Thor is the big gruff comradely warrior god. Of COURSE he is more likely to personally meet with his followers! Your god is not exactly the lovey dovey type of god, now is he?

[Psyren]

He's got this nice artifact and he never ages. He has some bennies that go with the job.

Granted, but this feels like the equivalent of buying your kid more stuff as a (poor) substitute for actually talking to them.

[Worldsong]

I think it's unlikely that Durkon is going to be killed, imprisoned or otherwise incapacitated. That already happened once and we had an entire book focusing on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, a possibility:
Love your ideas, and particularly Jirix as the next RC ...

Granted, but this feels like the equivalent of buying your kid more stuff as a (poor) substitute for actually talking to them. It also looks a bit like a game of "tag, you're it" given how Reddy got the cloak in the first place. :smallfrown:

[understatement]

I think it's unlikely that Durkon is going to be killed, imprisoned or otherwise incapacitated. That already happened once and we had an entire book focusing on it.

To memory, Durkon has been:

Energy Drained by Sabine
Tied up by Roy
Trees
Tied Up by orcs
Energy Drained by Sabine
Vampirized
Imprisoned in his own head
Killed by Hilgya
Turned to stone

Is it pronounced "Dur - kahn" or "Dur - kun"? (Also, is it Zy - kahn or Zy - kun?)

[IntelectPaladin]

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon...

I can't help but remember how the Order of the Scribble ended.
They were a group of adventurers, who went through just as much as our Sticks,
and still turned on eachother with the harshest vitrol over a disagreement. (Lirian and Dorukan excepted)

Are we potentially looking at the same sort of heartbreak for our order?

[Fyraltari]

I can't help but remember how the Order of the Scribble ened.
They were a group of adventurers, who went through just as much as our Sticks,
and still turned on eachother with the harshest vitrol over a disagreement. (Lirian and Dorukan excepted)

Are we potentially looking at the same sort of heartbreak for our order?

Nah, so far the story of the order of the stick has been one of a group of people going from a disfunctional bunch of loose allies with questionnable skill to a band of true companions who can rely on one another, even Belakr, implicitly znd compliment each other's strength through teamwork.

As Roy said (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) "We're not the team that freaks out, fight among themselves, and then run away anymore".

The Scribblers are what the Stickers would have ended up being if they hadn't wised up: very powerful individuals, each so sure that their way is the right way that they couldn't co-operate anymore.

[dancrilis]

It's irrelevant. The Demigods of the North have not cast their collective vote. (and will not until a new table is made)

... I think you might not be following the discussion between myself and Snails all that well, because your comment has nothing to do with it.


I am sure Redcloak will feel much better about be left out along with a few high priests of demigods, the ones who were ignored and hung out in the antechamber while the real business took place.
Actually it is possible that we may have stumbled upon a potential reason that The Dark One might be somewhat limited - he could be a demigod, might make a bit of sense for him to be on the same power level as Dvalin.

[JennTora]

Been a while, but isn't there 'dumb god laws' (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html) keeping Thor and other deities from involving themselves in conflicts like this? Thor and Odin were specifically talking about Hel's whole deal in that case, but I can't imagine tampering with the fundamental laws of the universe during one of the most critical parley in the history of this, or any of the worlds before not being wrapped up in red tape.
Wasn't it also mentioned that they have considerably more leeway in their home parts of the world. They are in the northern lands, Thor can probably swing him a couple extra spells.


Yeah this is the obvious omission.

Of course, neither Jirix nor Durkon are high priest of their respective deities, so Redcloak expecting a little special treatment isn't totally out of left field.



He summarized three strips of exposition in a single panel, I'd count that as exceptional explaining actually.

I'm inclined to attribute durkon's omission to his well maintained history of severe "derp." It'll probably get cleared up next time, or maybe not...

[MartianInvader]

I think my favorite thing about this comic is the title.

[Mic_128]

Is it pronounced "Dur - kahn" or "Dur - kun"? (Also, is it Zy - kahn or Zy - kun?)

I always pronounced them as Dur - con and Zy - con.

[stips]

I expect at some point there is going to be a humerous reference to mortals heads blowing up if they literally hear their god's voice spoken to them, aka the movie Dogma where the Metatron mentioned them going through a half dozen Adams before they realized what was going on, and the end of the movie where God (alanis morissette) speaks to Bartleby (ben afflick) and his head explodes lol.

[Fitzclowningham]

As I read things, Redcloak can assist Thor without intervention from TDO. Cast a 9th level spell, and that's it. Maybe TDO's reticence will leave space for Redcloak to decide the issue on his own. After 3-400 pages or so.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!


I just had a funny thought regarding this discussion:

Durkon: Of course, the only reason I was able to speak my god even once was because I died, so I guess its not that abnormal...
Redcloak: wait....you only spoke to your god directly because you died. Jirix only spoke to my god directly because he died. Can we...?
Durkon:....only speak to our deities when we die? I know Thor doesn't answer my Communes....if this normal I don't think its a good thing...
*Redcloak casts Commune, fails*
*both stare at each other*
*smash cut to Durkon trying to kill Redcloak*
Durkon: I'm sorry!! I promise to resurrect ye!!
Redcloak: Don't be this is needed! Stupid gods not paying attention to their followers!

:xykon: Hey! No one hits the goblin in his face but me!

[brian 333]

Durkon: "...Mebbe 'e dinnae want ta ruin tha friendship."
"Crap. I think I just failed a Diplomacy check."

[Nephrahim]

I've always thought it was odd that the dark one never spoke directly to redcloak. I mean, I know Thor hadn't until now either, but Redcloak is the most important goblin in the world. And the only time we ever hear from him, indirectly, was when what's-his-face who's in charge of Azure city now met him, but then remember how he killed the demon roaches the moment redcloak left? At the time I thought it just meant he was an *******, but maybe The Dark One told him something he didn't share?

[Squire Doodad]

I've always thought it was odd that the dark one never spoke directly to redcloak. I mean, I know Thor hadn't until now either, but Redcloak is the most important goblin in the world. And the only time we ever hear from him, indirectly, was when what's-his-face who's in charge of Azure city now met him, but then remember how he killed the demon roaches the moment redcloak left? At the time I thought it just meant he was an *******, but maybe The Dark One told him something he didn't share?

"So no one ever told me where the show Commune Log hotkey was..."

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean that comic went nowhere how I expected it to, but it was brilliant.

[MoleMage]

Did Redcloak adjust the seat with Stone Shape as a way to be polite?

Durkon had just expended a potentially useful spell slot for no purpose other than to make Redcloak more comfortable. Even more than leaving his weapons behind, that is an indication of peaceful intention by means of setting aside dangerous resources.

Redcloak recognized it as such, and also expended a spell slot to politely level the playing field, so to speak. But because he's still in his turf and he's not as trusting as Durkon, he expended a lower level slot.

[Squire Doodad]

Did Redcloak adjust the seat with Stone Shape as a way to be polite?

Durkon had just expended a potentially useful spell slot for no purpose other than to make Redcloak more comfortable. Even more than leaving his weapons behind, that is an indication of peaceful intention by means of setting aside dangerous resources.

Redcloak recognized it as such, and also expended a spell slot to politely level the playing field, so to speak. But because he's still in his turf and he's not as trusting as Durkon, he expended a lower level slot.

That's a good way of looking at it, very interesting.

[Seward]

Poor RC, friend-zoned by his deity.

35 years, eh?

Redcloak's avoided dying. There isn't anybody to raise him.

I once played a very devout Half-orc monk of Pholtus (think LN god of Light and Inflexibility, who has mostly human priests).

Due to a God of Chaos I got body-swapped with a priest of Pholtus who had commune prepped. I'm like SWEET. "Hey Pholtus, So my first question is - It's cool that I'm a Half-Orc right?"

(Pholtus was....patient with me).

Then later I died because my chaotic teammates kept trying to parlay with Slaad that were trying to eat our faces. Pholtus looked at me and said "So you know what you did wrong there right?"

Pholtus was happier with me when I died saving one of his priests from a grapplemonster....he gave me advice on taking a different feat when I recovered the lost level.

It's not hard to meet your deity as a devout D&D person. If you die.

Honestly Redcloak. Prep Commune already. Yes, there's a limit to how much of a relationship you can have with just Yes or No questions, but you know...."Is Durkon telling the truth?" "Is helping him the right thing to do?" etc seems like good input to get from The Dark One.

You'll never know if your deity is into you if you don't at least ask!


I wonder if Redcloak will “die” to discuss it with his god. I’m guessing no but am interested to see how he puts it to his god.

Actually with Durkon right there, this is probably the first opportunity he'd have to get raised if he took that route.

Although losing a level when you're that close to Epic would be pretty painful. I'd go with prepping Commune if I was Redcloak and pick my questions carefully.


It probably speaks to my lack of imagination that I never thought of using "Wall of Stone" to create outdoor furniture. Does this take extra practice or skill points in sculpting, or is this the basic spell?

You can do kind of crude stuff with it. It's not Fabricate. But it is good enough to do a bridge that doesn't fall down, for example.

Dwarves have stonecunning, so I'd probably give a bit more slack if he's got no Craft skills, just because that racial ability is pretty useless, to have it come up at least once in the game.



They were a group of adventurers, who went through just as much as our Sticks,
and still turned on eachother with the harshest vitrol over a disagreement. (Lirian and Dorukan excepted)


Well, they had paladin+chaotics in the same party, so they had ongoing conflict masked only by a larger goal. Then somebody died, possibly somebody everybody liked (unlike Belkar) and that shattered the fragile accord.

It's at the end of the quest that party divisions like this happen. I ran a Temple of Elemental Evil game where a Paladin of Cuthbert and a Druid did gritted-teeth cooperation because the Temple was a problem both had (and in 1st ed rules Paladin could only adventure with a Neutral for "one adventure". They just defined it as "Defeat the Temple).

The Druid came within a die roll twice of joining the other side (due to complex stuff that included a demigod manipulating things), and if he had, the other Neutrals in the party likely would have joined him. One of those key die rolls was one of the last actions of the campaign.

[Tarthalion]

Love this strip. I was grinning ear to ear by the end of the last panel. :smallbiggrin:

Me too. Much as I like OOTS, I have to admit my usual reaction is simply impatience for the next strip. This one left me grinning like an idiot.

Which means the next strip will probably be a real downer...

[brian 333]

Actually with Durkon right there, this is probably the first opportunity he'd have to get raised if he took that route.

Although losing a level when you're that close to Epic would be pretty painful. I'd go with prepping Commune if I was Redcloak and pick my questions carefully.

Do you like me? (Yes/No)

Do you like-like me? (Yes/No)

If you do like-like me, what do you like most?

My hair? (Yes/No)
My eyes? (Yes/No)
My bloodthirsty ruthlesness in following Your plan? (Yes/No)

[Emperor Time]

Poor Redcloak, 35 years as his high priest but not once has his god talk to him directly. Durkon has talk to his god and he isn't even the high priest of Thor. So at least their discussion hasn't broken down yet which is impressive when you think about the relationship between the races of dwarves and goblins.

[The_Weirdo]

I can sorta pinpoint at least one source of conflict for the Scribbles: Kraagor's death and the difference between how Soon reacted to it and how the Chaotics of the group did. Soon seemed to treat it as an unfortunate sacrifice for the Greater Good (tm) while the Chaotics - as they would likely do - valued the individual way more.

To be sure, Girard being Chaotic (and I'd not be too surprised if he were Evil; remember, he did run a baby kidnapping ring, here) added a lot of tension before it all went pear-shaped, but Kraagor's death - and him not being remembered - was likely the last straw.

The way Girard talks, mind, makes me think he's extremely prejudiced towards the Lawful in general and the militaristic in particular (and when I am calling someone out for that, you can tell how off the deep end they are). And it's quite hard to blame him, given that his native landmass is/was basically a free-for-all between Lawful Evil militaristic rulers that is finally getting united under three such ones.

While I don't side too far with Soon on the "Kraagor being remembered" issue and on his sacrifice (though he knew the risks and was at least sorta willing), my view of the Girard-Soon relationship - or mistrust - is basically as follows: Soon was a surly paladin that didn't seem to be much of a talker - which, in itself, is nothing troublesome at all. Girard, however, saw in the surly, Lawful Good, militaristic type the kind of person he always had every reason to despise. And Soon didn't seem to notice or care that Girard operated under such notions (and, to be fair to Soon, it wasn't his fault). In fact, Girard's entire dungeon and means of defense of the gate are those of a freedom fighter archetype - remember, the heroes that deal with such people as Tarquin generally need to be extremely discreet about it and to apply subterfuge and misdirection.

No such dynamics exists in the Order of the Stick. There is no member that sees Roy - or even any other member - as everything wrong with the world, as everything they despise. Even Belkar is seen as objectionable by everyone, but no one there believes that he - or those like him - is to blame for everything wrong with their homeland or world. Likewise, Roy is surly, but is willing to talk and understand those he leads and vice-versa.

At the end of the day, the Order of the Stick is way more functional than the Order of the Scribble, not only because they communicate, but also because none of them has the trappings that would trigger personal trauma on anyone else. (And I reiterate here, the thing with Girard's personal trauma isn't Soon's fault - and, when Chaotic Neutral little me says that, you can take it to the bank).

[Sermil]

Well, it does say in the SRD description:

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire.

The only thing that's a bit vague about that is what "almost" any shape consists of--my guess is that it's worded that way because the ultimate answer is "Your DM will decide how fancy you can be", so the wording gives them leeway to refuse that 1/200th scale model of Mount Rushmore you planned on creating...

Oh, come, these are PC murder-hobos. "I shape my Wall of Stone into an infinitely sharp spear directly above the enemy's head." DM: "It needs to be supported, not just hanging in space" "OK, it's supported by a super-thin piece of rock off to one side that doesn't have enough strength to support the weight of the spear..."

"I shape my Wall of Stone into a web of mono-molecular fibers all around the villain"

"I shape my Wall of Stone into a billion tiny grains of sand which fly up in the breeze and choke the archer"

[Psyren]

Oh, come, these are PC murder-hobos. "I shape my Wall of Stone into an infinitely sharp spear directly above the enemy's head." DM: "It needs to be supported, not just hanging in space" "OK, it's supported by a super-thin piece of rock off to one side that doesn't have enough strength to support the weight of the spear..."

"I shape my Wall of Stone into a web of mono-molecular fibers all around the villain"

"I shape my Wall of Stone into a billion tiny grains of sand which fly up in the breeze and choke the archer"

None of those are "crude shapes."

[Peelee]

Oh, come, these are PC murder-hobos. "I shape my Wall of Stone into an infinitely sharp spear directly above the enemy's head." DM: "It needs to be supported, not just hanging in space" "OK, it's supported by a super-thin piece of rock off to one side that doesn't have enough strength to support the weight of the spear..."

"I shape my Wall of Stone into a web of mono-molecular fibers all around the villain"

"I shape my Wall of Stone into a billion tiny grains of sand which fly up in the breeze and choke the archer"

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/896/093/3b8.gif

[Obscuraphile]

I think its funny that Durkon creates tall seats for himself and RC. RC says "too high" and fixes the height.

Durkon sits on a high seat, with his short legs dangling. But by doing so, they are equivalent heights for the negotiation. Smart move, Durkon.

Not to explain the joke but Redcloak is technically a small creature, while Durkon is medium. It's a great bit of understated D&D humor

[Peelee]

Not to explain the joke but Redcloak is technically a small creature, while Durkon is medium. It's a great bit of understated D&D humor

Redcloak is medium, as are all goblins in OotS. He is human-sized, which is larger than Dwarf. For them to sit at the a comfortable height, Durkon needs to sit higher. Redcloak lowered his seat, since Durkon made them both tall-ish seats.

Its not really a joke, and it's definitely not a "goblins are small" joke.

[RatElemental]

Say can you grab stuff when you’re cloudwalking? Like a friend?

Doubtful, but Durkon can freely switch back and forth between cloud form and physical form for at least about 11 hours.

[HalflingRonRon]

Awesome moment, Redcloaks one of the best written / in depth characters in the comic - Cant help but wonder if the Monster In The Darkness is going to fit in to this story arc soon as a major reveal..

[deltamire]

I always pronounced them as Dur - con and Zy - con.
Same to both of these!

The way that different people evolve different pronunciations of text-based fantasy names, which as a genre already is pretty bad for unpronounceable syllables, has always been a great love of mine.

[Obscuraphile]

Redcloak is medium, as are all goblins in OotS.

Do you have a source on that one?

[Goremplotz]

Maybe The Dark One just hasn't been a god for long enough to have understood the value of pampering communicating with his followers?

[mjasghar]

Do you have a source on that one?

His size can be compared to that of humans as can that of goblins and hobgoblins in the azure city story

[Cifer]

I wonder if the party is going to crash this, or Xykon...

They're just sitting in the open. Naturally this basically shouldn't be able to work... Durkon doesn't, strictly speaking, have any good bargaining chips apart from "My god said yours wouldn't survive until the next world!"
Well, there is the major factor that Redcloak's bargaining position isn't as strong as he thinks either because he assumes that letting the world get destroyed is something the gods would do everything to prevent rather than, well, what most are kind of expecting to happen anyway. So Durkon's bargaining chip is basically "Either we do this now or we wait until just a single god changes their vote and kills you, me, everyone around us and probably your god too."

[Fyraltari]

Do you have a source on that one?

I for one, beloved that the goblins being the same size as medium-sized creatures, significantly taller than small-sized creatures and significantly smaller than large-sized creatures may be a clue towards them being medium-sized creatures.

Of course, given that The Giant is we’ll-known for his, borderline obsessive, strict adherence to the rules of a game that has been out of print for more than a decade it is entirely possible that our eyes deceive us and that the goblins are, indeed, small-sized.

[LadyEowyn]

Doubtful, but Durkon can freely switch back and forth between cloud form and physical form for at least about 11 hours.
Dude. Why don’t people use this spell all the time? It’s (tactically) as good as being a vampire. Seriously injured in battle and healer isn’t immediately available? Just go incorporeal! It’s the perfect contingency plan.

Need to attack a flying opponent without being ranged? Go to cloud form, fly up, and switch back to physical form while directly above them.

[Fyraltari]

Dude. Why don’t people use this spell all the time? It’s (tactically) as good as being a vampire. Seriously injured in battle and healer isn’t immediately available? Just go incorporeal! It’s the perfect contingency plan.

Need to attack a flying opponent without being ranged? Go to cloud form, fly up, and switch back to physical form while directly above them.
Everybody gangsta until someone pulls out a leaf-blower.

[dancrilis]

Dude. Why don’t people use this spell all the time? It’s (tactically) as good as being a vampire. Seriously injured in battle and healer isn’t immediately available? Just go incorporeal! It’s the perfect contingency plan.

Need to attack a flying opponent without being ranged? Go to cloud form, fly up, and switch back to physical form while directly above them.

Each change - to and from - cloud form takes 5 rounds, and you are not immune to damage etc while a cloud.

You have some damage reduction but other then that you are fairly helpless while in cloud form - normal non-magical weapons can still kill you (to say nothing of better weaponry and actual magic).

[Obscuraphile]

I for one, beloved that the goblins being the same size as medium-sized creatures, significantly taller than small-sized creatures and significantly smaller than large-sized creatures may be a clue towards them being medium-sized creatures.

Of course, given that The Giant is we’ll-known for his, borderline obsessive, strict adherence to the rules of a game that has been out of print for more than a decade it is entirely possible that our eyes deceive us and that the goblins are, indeed, small-sized.

Your tender feelings towards green skins aside, size factors in weight as well as height, otherwise Xykon would be small.

Considering how long the comics have run and that the appearance of goblins have not changed much in that time, I'm not sure that point works as well as you might think, without even addressing how the giant has lamp-shaded strange artifacts of game rules before, through both adherence and diversion. You can say, "well look at the art" all you want, but you do realize that there are entire long-lived threads that deal with mapping the art onto the game, which default to the rules over the art.

[deltamire]

Your tender feelings towards green skins aside, size factors in weight as well as height, otherwise Xykon would be small.

Considering how long the comics have run and that the appearance of goblins have not changed much in that time, I'm not sure that point works as well as you might think, without even addressing how the giant has lamp-shaded strange artifacts of game rules before, through both adherence and diversion. You can say, "well look at the art" all you want, but you do realize that there are entire long-lived threads that deal with mapping the art onto the game, which default to the rules over the art.
Not sure exactly what your first point is saying, because . . . If size factors in weight as well, then Xykon, who is bones and has none of the main weighty forms a humanoid would (tendons, muscles, fat, blood) and therefore would be considered incredibly light, making him . . . Small?

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it pronounced "Dur - kahn" or "Dur - kun"? (Also, is it Zy - kahn or Zy - kun?)Rhymes with con.

The Scribblers are what the Stickers would have ended up being if they hadn't wised up: very powerful individuals, each so sure that their way is the right way that they couldn't co-operate anymore. In other words, a table full of selfish players who would rather argue than play together (which IIRC is also what Rich used as an inspiration for the Snarl's creation ...)

[Fitzclowningham]

The thing about Redcloak dying to gain an audience with TDO is that the death would be permanent. Redcloak cannot be resurrected because he is too old.

[Schroeswald]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/896/093/3b8.gif
At first I saw “And that is way you are fat” and I was like “yup, that’s a quote that is both from Yoda in Empire Strikes Back and is applicable in this situation”

[The_Weirdo]

The thing about Redcloak dying to gain an audience with TDO is that the death would be permanent. Redcloak cannot be resurrected because he is too old.

Good catch!

[littlebum2002]

The thing about Redcloak dying to gain an audience with TDO is that the death would be permanent. Redcloak cannot be resurrected because he is too old.

I'm reading the Resurrection spell, and I don't see an age limit. Am I missing something? All I see is:

"You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age."

But I am assuming that Redcloak would consciously allow himself to be killed (or just kill himself) to get an audience with TDO instead of just waiting around to finally succumb to old age, if that's even possible with the Cloak.

[dancrilis]

The thing about Redcloak dying to gain an audience with TDO is that the death would be permanent. Redcloak cannot be resurrected because he is too old.

We have no reason to assume that taking off the red cloak would apply the years to Redcloak - as such there is no reason to assume that he would die of old age.

Edit: Still he might be better not risking it (particularly when his hope of being brought back hinges on one of his most persistent enemies).

[Ron Miel]

Redcloak cannot be resurrected because he is too old.


Good catch!


I'm not sure that's true. The rule (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) says that "The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age."

The crimson mantle stopped Redcloak from ageing. He still has the body of a teenager. If he is killed by a knife, for instance, it is not a death of old age.

Also, note that Redcloak's older brother died only a couple of years ago. And he was ... blah blah spoilers. Redcloak is probably young enough to survive, even he reverted to his actual age.

[dancrilis]

Also, note that Redcloak's older brother died only a couple of years ago. And he was ... blah blah spoilers. Redcloak is probably young enough to survive, even he reverted to his actual age.

Didn't know Redcloak had an older brother.

His younger brother (as in his brother born sometime after he was born) died a while ago.

[littlebum2002]

Didn't know Redcloak had an older brother.

His younger brother (as in his brother born sometime after he was born) died a while ago.


He was his younger brother, but he died less than 2 years before the present events.

[Ron Miel]

I stand corrected. Younger brother, not older. Even so, Reddie is probably young enough to survive.

[Mariele]

Do you have a source on that one?
Yeah, Rich said so at some point that he made the goblins medium-sized so it wouldn't look like the Order was beating up green kids, IIRC. Don't have the specific quote on me, though. Summon Banana!

[dancrilis]

I stand corrected. Younger brother, not older. Even so, Reddie is probably young enough to survive.

Unless removing the artifact kills him and eats his soul, ages him two years for every year worn or other such artifact shenanigans.

Minimum maximum age for Goblins seems to be 62 and I have no reason to suspect that Redcloak was anywhere close to 27 when he doned it.


And reason to suspect he was not.


Still trusting Durkon on this would be foolish and if he really wanted to meet the Dark One he could just use Plane Shift.

[factotum]

Need to attack a flying opponent without being ranged? Go to cloud form, fly up, and switch back to physical form while directly above them.

You can only manoeuvre slowly with Wind Walk--yeah, you can do a speed of 600 feet if you want, but if you want any sort of control over where you're going your max speed is only 10 feet, which is pretty darned slow in D&D turns.

[The MunchKING]

Unless removing the artifact kills him and eats his soul, ages him two years for every year worn or other such artifact shenanigans.

Minimum maximum age for Goblins seems to be 62 and I have no reason to suspect that Redcloak was anywhere close to 27 when he doned it.

In SoD they say they "get old and could die" at 50. So even with a bit of rounding on the speakers part, they may just live shorter lives in Stickverse.

[Peelee]

Do you have a source on that one?

Sure (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html).:smalltongue:

Or, if you want something more specific...OtOoPCs, page 37, Belkar claims someone is a size-ist because Belkar is Small size, which he explicitly defines as under 4 feet tall. Panel 13 (or panel 1 of page 2, depending on how you prefer to count) of 298 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) has disguised Belkar claiming to be Medium-sized based solely on being roughyl the same height as a human. In panel 1 of 617 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html), Roy calls Celia, someone the same height as Redcloak, "inexplicably Medium-sized." And, in the digital updated re-release of Don't Split the Party, four pages after the end in the additional bonus content, the author talks about an Order of the Stick d20 Sourcebook campaign book he was thinking of, which contains "Medium-sized goblins".

So I feel fairly safe.

[factotum]

The thing about Redcloak dying to gain an audience with TDO is that the death would be permanent. Redcloak cannot be resurrected because he is too old.

I'm not convinced...the spell descriptions for Raise Dead and Resurrection just say that a person who actually died of old age can't be brought back, but Redcloak wouldn't be dying of old age in this scenario, would he? Sure, he's older than a goblin would normally be able to get, but I don't think that's the important thing.

[understatement]

Here, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) he can take off his cloak with no ill effects. The bigger question is that he's probably not going to kill himself based on solely what Durkon says.

[dancrilis]

Here, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) he can take off his cloak with no ill effects.
Unless he merely wore it under his pant - could have been part of the ritual.
But yea he probably took it off (although were he put it is anyones guess).


The bigger question is that he's probably not going to kill himself based on solely what Durkon says.
That doesn't really seem like a question (more of an answer maybe).

And yes Redcloak commits suicide (assisted or otherwise) in an effort to talk to the Dark One leaving his body and the Crimson Mantle undefended is not going to happen.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Especially given that Rich said he would never use suicide as a good thing ever.

[thorr-kan]

That was...remarkably relatable.

Interesting.

[Schroeswald]

Unless he merely wore it under his pant - could have been part of the ritual.
But yea he probably took it off (although were he put it is anyones guess).

I’d guess he put it wherever he put his shirt.

[skim172]

Jirix got a personal audience with the Dark One when he temporarily died and got resurrected. He can confirm what he looks like.

Redcloak doesn't need to commit suicide - all he needs to confirm Durkon's telling the truth is a quick texting session with Jirix back in Gobbotopia.


:redcloak:: "hai Jirix, does Teh Dark 1 hav prple aura, y/n? I kno, so random, lol, but important!!!!!!!;D"




And thus the world was saved.

[understatement]

The Dark One to Jirix, a fairly random low-lvl hobgoblin cleric that had the luck to die near a high level cleric twice: "Your time to join this army is not yet, Jirix. I have many battles for you yet in the world of mortals. They will be battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue, but they will be battles nonetheless. Go now. My true prophet waits for you."

The Dark One to Redcloak, his high priest for 35 years, the Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia, and possibly one of the most powerful clerics in the world: "Don't screw this up."

What a guy.

***

On a side note, the 9th panel is pretty funny to look at: Redcloak looks like he got socked in the gut, while Durkon is happily smiling. Interesting contrast of expressions.

[Ron Miel]

Especially given that Rich said he would never use suicide as a good thing ever.

HPOH excepted, of course.

[RabidEel]

HPOH excepted, of course.

To be fair, HPoH wasn't alive in the first place.

[dancrilis]

HPOH excepted, of course.

Still undead and safe at the Godsmoot - I doubt she will destroy herself.

[Peelee]

HPOH excepted, of course.

Not suicide. Belkar would have killed him whether Durkon made the vampire tear the robe or not.

[Fyraltari]

Your tender feelings towards green skins aside, size factors in weight as well as height, otherwise Xykon would be small.

Considering how long the comics have run and that the appearance of goblins have not changed much in that time, I'm not sure that point works as well as you might think, without even addressing how the giant has lamp-shaded strange artifacts of game rules before, through both adherence and diversion. You can say, "well look at the art" all you want, but you do realize that there are entire long-lived threads that deal with mapping the art onto the game, which default to the rules over the art.
Kinkshaming aside, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Here, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) he can take off his cloak with no ill effects. The bigger question is that he's probably not going to kill himself based on solely what Durkon says.
Well, twice in a row, would be a bit much.

...

To quote another dwarf from another franchise ‘Do you think we get XP from making people kill themselves?’


:redcloak:: "hai Jirix, does Teh Dark 1 hav prple aura, y/n? I kno, so random, lol, but important!!!!!!!;D"




And thus the world was saved.
I say let it burn.

[Angrith]

I'm super glad that Redcloak seems to accept that Durkon is being honest about the mission from Thor. I am a tad sad that he seems depressed now; although, it was hilarious.

[Ron Miel]

Not suicide. Belkar would have killed him whether Durkon made the vampire tear the robe or not.

Belkar couldn't even reach him until he deliberately dismissed the anti-life shell.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html

[KorvinStarmast]

The Dark One to Jirix, a fairly random low-lvl hobgoblin cleric that had the luck to die near a high level cleric twice: "Your time to join this army is not yet, Jirix. I have many battles for you yet in the world of mortals. They will be battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue, but they will be battles nonetheless. Go now. My true prophet waits for you."

The Dark One to Redcloak, his high priest for 35 years, the Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia, and possibly one of the most powerful clerics in the world: "Don't screw this up."

What a guy. Correction: what a god. :smallwink:

Belkar couldn't even reach him until he deliberately dismissed the anti-life shell.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html Calling Durkon's defeat of that evil spirit suicide strikes me as a strange take and to me misses the connotation (in the term suicide) of self destruction: note that when Durkon pops into existence in the afterlife (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html), he is (a) no longer "divided" and (b) no longer subjugated by an evil spirit.

The destruction of that evil spirit, narratively, is a new beginning with hope for something better to come.
Suicide is an end, and seems to embody the opposite of hope.
(Since two people I am related to have taken their own lives, I better stop and not run afoul of forum rules; we are discussing a web comic here).

[Peelee]

Belkar couldn't even reach him until he deliberately dismissed the anti-life shell.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html

If only halfling were known for throwing things (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html), which could pass through anti-life shells. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html)

And, even disregarding that, opening the door for the guy who kills you isn't suicide.

And, even disregarding that, Durkon is controlling the vampire, so it's still not suicide.

[dancrilis]

Belkar couldn't even reach him until he deliberately dismissed the anti-life shell.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html

Peelee I believe is drawing a distinction between not-Durkon and Durkon (as did temp-Durkon in panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html)), there was indication that not-Durkon would regain control (panel 3) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) so this was less Durkon commiting suicide and more him using the equivalent of a dominate effect to free himself from prison (or so it could be argued - I am somewhat dubious about the arguement I will admit).

[KorvinStarmast]

Peelee I believe is drawing a distinction between not-Durkon and Durkon (as did temp-Durkon in panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html)), there was indication that not-Durkon would regain control (panel 3) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) so this was less Durkon commiting suicide and more him using the equivalent of a dominate effect to free himself from prison (or so it could be argued - I am somewhat dubious about the arguement I will admit). It was one of the few times I've seen a case of talking to one's self be productive. :smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

The evil spirit that was occupying Durkon's body made a deliberate decision to drop all defences and allow himself to be destroyed.

[Fyraltari]

If only halfling were known for throwing things (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html), which could pass through anti-life shells. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html)
Which he very much wasn’t doing. And would have made Durkon’s achievement meaningless.


And, even disregarding that, opening the door for the guy who kills you isn't suicide.
If you know he is going to kill you, yes it is. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop)


And, even disregarding that, Durkon is controlling the vampire, so it's still not suicide.
But the vampire *is* Durkon at that moment. The soul that was in control of the body decided to let Belkar stake him to death.

[Jasdoif]

Peelee I believe is drawing a distinction between not-Durkon and Durkon (as did temp-Durkon in panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html)), there was indication that not-Durkon would regain control (panel 3) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) so this was less Durkon commiting suicide and more him using the equivalent of a dominate effect to free himself from prison (or so it could be argued - I am somewhat dubious about the arguement I will admit).Well, since we're talking about this....



I am not going to draw a comic where committing suicide is portrayed as a reasonable and effective solution to a problem.

I am certainly not going to draw a comic where a religious figure exhorts a believer to commit suicide in order to thwart the efforts of a rival religious faction.

As much as I get testy over nitpicking and loophole-seeking, I understand that such is just part of how you enjoy the comic. But sometimes, the out-of-universe answer is the only answer that is required. Kids and teenagers read this comic. I am not going to spend any time in-comic explaining why no one is killing themselves, because to do so would be to suggest that sometimes, killing yourself is the answer (even if it's not the answer this time). I am not going to write something that has the potential to do real-world damage just to close a story loophole. Everyone can just buck up and live with the plot hole.

So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution? :tongue:First, I don't find that amusing. Everyone loves to throw things I said back in my face, but that was a discussion of something that would have actually appeared in the comic, and we're talking about the underlying logic and extrapolations that will never appear on the page. Someone wanted an explanation and I gave it to them. I did not present that issue in the comic strip, nor did I solve the main conflict of a scene with it. And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste.
Durkon did not commit suicide, because he was still dead and soul-bound. HPoH being destroyed was the opposite of solving his problems (much less in a reasonable or effective way), so whether that's viewed as suicide or not has little bearing on what the Giant was talking about.

[Anansiil]

A moment of silence for those that came to today's webcomic for escape and respite from their relationship problems lol :D
*harsh reminders* lol

[KorvinStarmast]

The evil spirit that was occupying Durkon's body made a deliberate decision to drop all defences and allow himself to be destroyed. If you wanna 'die on that hill', go for it. I think the banana has covered anything else I'd offer up. Best wishes.

[Worldsong]

I wouldn't call what happened to the HPOH suicide due to the circumstances, but at the same time if someone told me that his death scene made them uncomfortable because it made them think of suicide I wouldn't be able to tell them that their discomfort is unfounded.

[KorvinStarmast]

If a vampire's spirit was to be characterized as a demon (rather than as undead per D&D standard models) than the process that Durkon went through was very close to, from within, 'exorcising a demon'

Durkula was "birthed in Hel's halls" and constructed to fit into a hole in Durkon's heart. I'll offer up that this was the literary model that Rich was riffing off of, even if the original agent of Durkon's death was from a vampire and not Hel at all. Hel's little demon ... not too far of a reach, I don't think.

A malign spirit created/spawned/birthed in the evil after life is (conventionally) a devil or a demon of some sort. An undead is a different kind of evil. Rich fused them, conceptually; cool and innovative IMO.

This is consistent with why "is this how undead work" is replied to with "it's messy" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html)

[Fyraltari]

If a vampire's spirit was to be characterized as a demon (rather than as undead per D&D standard models) than the process that Durkon went through was very close to, from within, 'exorcising a demon'
Hmm, no? Exorcism, as th ename implies, involve casting the evil spirit out of the body, not transforming it.


Durkula was "birthed in Hel's halls" and constructed to fit into a hole in Durkon's heart. I'll offer up that this was the literary model that Rich was riffing off of, even if the original agent of Durkon's death was from a vampire and not Hel at all. Hel's little demon ... not too far of a reach, I don't think.

A malign spirit created/spawned/birthed in the evil after life is (conventionally) a devil or a demon of some sort. An undead is a different kind of evil. Rich fused them, conceptually; cool and innovative IMO.

This is consistent with why "is this how undead work" is replied to with "it's messy" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html)

D&D 3.5E's book on undead states that vampires are the corspe of the dead animated by a foreign spirit, that's not an invention of The Giant. That the spirit gradually consumes the host's memories to turn into a dark reflection of them is, however.

[factotum]

Durkon did not commit suicide, because he was still dead and soul-bound. HPoH being destroyed was the opposite of solving his problems (much less in a reasonable or effective way), so whether that's viewed as suicide or not has little bearing on what the Giant was talking about.

The way I see it is: the vampire was effectively Durkon at that point, but he knew that Belkar destroying the vampire was not tantamount to killing himself--he'd been dead some time at that point already--but destroying the *other* entity, the evil spirit that was piloting his corpse.

[Frozenstep]

I'm super glad that Redcloak seems to accept that Durkon is being honest about the mission from Thor. I am a tad sad that he seems depressed now; although, it was hilarious.

It really, really helps that Redcloak can relate to being a cleric sent on a mission. And understanding how often that ends up forcing a cleric into an awkward and dangerous situation.

[Peelee]

If you know he is going to kill you, yes it is. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop)

Given the example you chose, if you would like to hear my thoughts on that off-site, please let me know.

[Fyraltari]

Given the example you chose, if you would like to hear my thoughts on that off-site, please let me know.

I didn't mean anything by that example beyond "one does not need to do the deed themselves for it to be suicide, just to be a deliberate cause of their own demise."

[KorvinStarmast]

D&D 3.5E's book on undead states Nice job of completely missing the point. Give yourself a gold star.

[Peelee]

I didn't mean anything by that example beyond "one does not need to do the deed themselves for it to be suicide, just to be a deliberate cause of their own demise."

I getcha. In which case, suffice it to say I don't exactly agree (as evidenced by the fact that I contend there was no suicide in that scene, for althat reason among a wide variety of reasons).

[Fyraltari]

Nice job of completely missing the point. Give yourself a gold star.

Oooh, nice. I'll put it on my wall.

And your point was?

[FlyingSealion]

The Dark One to Redcloak, his high priest for 35 years, the Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia, and possibly one of the most powerful clerics in the world: "Don't screw this up."


To be fair, he also said "no pressure though", so that's something :smalltongue:

[bravelove]

oof you really forget just how long redcloaks been doing this until its directly brought up huh? breaks my heart really knowing redcloaks been suffering for so long, like of course, he could have definitely done more about it, but it still hurts, 35 years is such a long time

[mjasghar]

oof you really forget just how long redcloaks been doing this until its directly brought up huh? breaks my heart really knowing redcloaks been suffering for so long, like of course, he could have definitely done more about it, but it still hurts, 35 years is such a long time

You forgot the blue tint to the letters to indicate sarcasm
It’s other goblinoids and other innocent/ not so innocent beings that suffered.
I really don’t get how people forget one simple thing - he participated in giving babies to the MitD thinking it was eating them. How the Hel can anyone justify that?
With regards to Durkon/ Greg : I regard it as like in the movies where the ship is taken over by the enemy and about to be used to destroy the good guys’ home. So they fight their way to the bridge and initiate self destruct.

[understatement]

You forgot the blue tint to the letters to indicate sarcasm
It’s other goblinoids and other innocent/ not so innocent beings that suffered.
I really don’t get how people forget one simple thing - he participated in giving babies to the MitD thinking it was eating them. How the Hel can anyone justify that?


Technically, it was Xykon that gave the MiTD babies.

[bravelove]

You forgot the blue tint to the letters to indicate sarcasm
It’s other goblinoids and other innocent/ not so innocent beings that suffered.
I really don’t get how people forget one simple thing - he participated in giving babies to the MitD thinking it was eating them. How the Hel can anyone justify that?
With regards to Durkon/ Greg : I regard it as like in the movies where the ship is taken over by the enemy and about to be used to destroy the good guys’ home. So they fight their way to the bridge and initiate self destruct.

Bruh I'm not saying redcloak did nothing wrong or anything, just that it makes me feel sad that he's been in this position for so long despite how miserable it must be, I'm allowed to empathize with characters that did bad things without making a 20 page addedum about how evil they are and how me feeling sad for them isn't an excuse this isn't Tumblr after all, i even directly said in the post that he could be doing more to get out of it and to make life not miserable for himself

[a_flemish_guy]

This is, by a large margin, my favorite storyline of the entire series. It doesn't speak very highly of Roy's leadership that he vetoed one of the best ideas a team member has had.

to be fair to roy at this point he and durkon have 2 different primary objectives

- roy's is to disable xykon and after that they can get to redcloack, so remaining hidden is their best bet
- durkon's is to convince redcloack to work with them with xykon being the afterthought, so open dialogue is the best bet

[Jepekula]

to be fair to roy at this point he and durkon have 2 different primary objectives

- roy's is to disable xykon and after that they can get to redcloack, so remaining hidden is their best bet
- durkon's is to convince redcloack to work with them with xykon being the afterthought, so open dialogue is the best bet

Yes, but Roy is clearly blinded by his hubris. Both his and Durkon’s main goal should be to save the world. Just killing Xykon doesn’t do that, except for a short time. They’d still need Redcloak and TDO to cooperate with the rest of the gods for the “save the world” goal to be completed rather than just kicked down the road.

[RatElemental]

You forgot the blue tint to the letters to indicate sarcasm
It’s other goblinoids and other innocent/ not so innocent beings that suffered.
I really don’t get how people forget one simple thing - he participated in giving babies to the MitD thinking it was eating them. How the Hel can anyone justify that?
With regards to Durkon/ Greg : I regard it as like in the movies where the ship is taken over by the enemy and about to be used to destroy the good guys’ home. So they fight their way to the bridge and initiate self destruct.

Bad people are still, as the descriptor implies, people. Taking this into account is key to writing villains that have depth and to writing redemption arcs that actually make sense. Half the point of a sympathetic villain is for the audience to sympathize with them, at least a little, despite how awful they are.

[Raven777]

With the whole meeting his God thing, maybe Durkon should mention being killed and resurrected only a while later kinda helps.

[el minster]

I just find it funny how two mortal enemies are sitting around chatting about their gods

[CriticalFailure]

Bruh I'm not saying redcloak did nothing wrong or anything, just that it makes me feel sad that he's been in this position for so long despite how miserable it must be, I'm allowed to empathize with characters that did bad things without making a 20 page addedum about how evil they are and how me feeling sad for them isn't an excuse this isn't Tumblr after all, i even directly said in the post that he could be doing more to get out of it and to make life not miserable for himself

Actually you are required to add a disclaimer about how evil they are, how inexcusable their actions are, and how they totally deserve to suffer. Otherwise you must be subject to finger wagging moralizing about how evil they are and how you are clearly a bad person for empathizing with an evil fictional character complete with a lecture about how your taste in fiction reveals your moral turpitude.

[Mariele]

Actually you are required to add a disclaimer about how evil they are, how inexcusable their actions are, and how they totally deserve to suffer. Otherwise you must be subject to finger wagging moralizing about how evil they are and how you are clearly a bad person for empathizing with an evil fictional character complete with a lecture about how your taste in fiction reveals your moral turpitude.
I mean, where's the lie?

[danielxcutter]

I know this strip is filled with subtle things regarding Redcloak’s relationship with TDO, but I’m just going to chuckle at the jokes for now.

[bravelove]

Actually you are required to add a disclaimer about how evil they are, how inexcusable their actions are, and how they totally deserve to suffer. Otherwise you must be subject to finger wagging moralizing about how evil they are and how you are clearly a bad person for empathizing with an evil fictional character complete with a lecture about how your taste in fiction reveals your moral turpitude.

Oh gods it really is just like being back on Tumblr you'll never take me alive

[understatement]

Actually you are required to add a disclaimer about how evil they are, how inexcusable their actions are, and how they totally deserve to suffer. Otherwise you must be subject to finger wagging moralizing about how evil they are and how you are clearly a bad person for empathizing with an evil fictional character complete with a lecture about how your taste in fiction reveals your moral turpitude.

Woah, woah, what?? That's crazy talk!

[a_flemish_guy]

Yes, but Roy is clearly blinded by his hubris. Both his and Durkon’s main goal should be to save the world. Just killing Xykon doesn’t do that, except for a short time. They’d still need Redcloak and TDO to cooperate with the rest of the gods for the “save the world” goal to be completed rather than just kicked down the road.

well, that's the fun part, even if durkon manages to convince redcloack here then they'll still need to deal with xykon and if xykon is defeated beforehand then they'll still need to convince redcloack and both objectives allow the world to go on as TE needs both a divine and arcane caster. for their plan

[CriticalFailure]

Oh gods it really is just like being back on Tumblr you'll never take me alive

I thankfully never have had a tumblr account. The passive aggressive posts about how enjoying or empathizing with villains makes the poster cOnCeRnEd AbOuT yOuR cHaRacTeR is more than enough for me.

[danielxcutter]

I thankfully never have had a tumblr account. The passive aggressive posts about how enjoying or empathizing with villains makes the poster cOnCeRnEd AbOuT yOuR cHaRacTeR is more than enough for me.

I have, and while I’ve never personally went through that I’ve heard stories.