OOTS #1207 - The Discussion Thread

[Rinazina]

I don't know why, but this strip gave me a vibe similar to the dog sitting among flames, saying "this is fine".


Very same feeling. we do know IFCC goal is to (somehow):
- continue Hel's program (at least, Hel's effort indefinitely stalled, and was too much to ask gods to do their job (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)).
- tear down the Good-gods (which implicitly happen if Hel overcome Odin power (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html))

Now, with RedClock in this (delusional?) belief of close success, is the right time to play their chip.

If V can be actually possessed, then blocking the OOTS and attack RC might be enough to trigger a reaction.
If V can't be possessed, the secret IFCC artifact might come into play.

Anyhow, this is the quiet before a huge kababooooom!



Anyway, I noticed Durkon said the snarl keeps on breaking out of its prison, but RC didn't continue down this path.
Recall that Thor said the outsiders' reaction to being told of the many worlds is not a good one, and I won't be surprised if the IFCC is scrying on this meeting and do note what Durkon just said. Because we know the crayon story of what happens when the snarl escapes, there is no putting it back in the box and continue like nothing happened.

Nope, doesn't seem he's really listening, and also, I don't think the plot might go in a diplomatic direction where the clergy haggle on a treaty, so any reasonable course can't be pursued :P

[Jacky720]

Why do people keep talking about the IFCC as if they're puppets of Tiamat?

They explicitly say they lack higher sponsors, which wouldn't mean much if we had any evidence that they weren't the head honchos in their organization...but we don't. And Tiamat specifically is ridiculous. Look at their one interaction with Tiamat. "We had to do it to defeat a common enemy" and "How about we kill five good dragons for every evil one we destroyed today," not "Here is how our actions helped the goal you set us" or "Please give me another chance". That's how you talk with the CEO of a larger competing corporation, not your own boss!

Where did this idea come from, and why did it stick around?
I wouldn't say it was a rival CEO. More like the managerial equivalent of your uncle: up one, over one. That explains both the language he got away with, and him getting attacked with no consequences (or maybe that's just an Evil thing and you're right).


Even assuming that there is divine consensus, what the heck does that change? Even divinely-ordained servants of the gods can go against their desires, after all.
I'm not sure whether the link (removed because new account) refers to Shojo or Miko, but it doesn't work either way. The Twelve Gods aren't inherently Lawful, and "everything I did was for my people" wasn't wrong, in Shojo's case; and literally one strip later, Miko gets serious divine comeuppance for messing it up.

[Metastachydium]

Wow. You're for sure methodical.




Even assuming that there is divine consensus, what the heck does that change? Even divinely-ordained servants of the gods can go against their desires, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) after all.

It comes at a cost, though. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)


Unfortunately, we don't see a lot of divine decrees in the comic (maybe Odin's one prophecy about Durkon counts?), so we need to draw on real-world human nature to draw further conclusions...but that's probably against vague forum rules. So I'm just going to wave vaguely in the direction of the argument I'd make if I hadn't been burned by stumbling too close to that line so many times and ask how effective you think a divine decree would be.
(…)
Everything else: So, you're proposing that not only should the existing gods officially raise TDO to pantheon-equal status, they should start stripping power from clerics who act against goblinoids. Wow, such minor concessions, I wonder why this hasn't been offered.
It's not clear how hard a cleric needs to screw up before the gods strip them of power, but they're clearly not doing it for mere theopolitical reasons.


Like I said, clerics are badly needed parts of most Stickverse societies, and they are servants of the gods. I don't believe Stickverse could function properly without clerics, so their word is more likely to be heeded than that of any secular real life leader who cannot resurrect people working with just half a handful of ashes or a toenail.
As for how hard a cleric has to screw up, in strip no. 407 we saw a divine caster stripped of her power. All she did was break her vows big time, killing someone she shouldn't have killed, which, mutatis mutandis, is the same thing the clerics should vow to do in the scenario we are talking about: not kill members of a group for some dumb/no reason.




Re: Girard: Citation needed.

He set up a kidnapping ring because he was way to paranoid to trust anyone who was not related to him by blood. Also, he booby-trapped the coordinates he gave to a nominal ally of his.




I can't find the forum post where Rich explains how all of it works, but it doesn't sound "unreliable" so much as "distributed". In other words, it's unreliable in the same way that distributed cloud storage is, except that the only alternative is a single big server.

This:

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment. (Emphases mine.)




If mortal druids and wizards can fix the problem, why couldn't elementals? (And yes it's not a permanent fix.)

The Gates are a very good stop-gap measure, but little more than that.




"Really? We finally got Cliffport?"
"They have a long-standing trade war with the elves. Once they attacked, Cliffport decided it was best to influence our position on slavery through economic engagement." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)
It sounds like spiting the elves and not pissing of Xykon weren't not considerations, but they certainly weren't the only reasons.
The politics involved are vague, but it sounds like there's more involved than "We don't like elves". After all, at the risk of violating the politics rule*, "trade wars" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_war) are less about spite and more about interfering with each others' economy. That makes it sounds less like "Screw you, elves!" and more like "These guys are sticking around, might be a good idea to trade with them". Which would also explain why the other sixteen (unnamed) nations decided to stick around; after all, Cliffport was the only one Hobgoblin Cleric #1 was surprised to hear joined, indicating that most or all of the others joined before the recent elf incident.

*Not my fault, the comic brought politics into the comic.

Good points made, but I must point out that this also confirms that Cliffport probably wouldn't have recognized Gobbotopia (at that point) if this hadn't meant that they can open a new front against the elves in this manner.
As for the other 16 nations, I never implied they also had a thing with the elves. My personal guess would be that most of them are minor league statelets who just don't want to be next, although of course this is impossible to confirm as of now.



Not strictly true, but the exceptions are things that either he chose himself. (While Reanimated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Gladiators (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) was set up in less than half an hour, it wasn't complete when we last saw it.)

The core problem that we can't reliably distract Xykon is still there, of course. I'm just in a pedantic mood.

And you have every right to be in a pedantic mood. I do that a lot, too.



Why? Real-world religious and ideological figures usually have significant political influence, and while no real figure has possessed such miraculous powers...
1. ...many of them have convinced their followers that they do, one way or another. Why does it matter how successful they are at backing these claims up, if the people still believe them?
2. ...modern leaders can do things that the OotSverse residents would consider as miraculous as we consider OotSverse religious leaders' spells to be. Does this increase how fervent

0. So much better, then.
1, 2. I'd guess it helps.



The bolded part is wrong. While searching for a citation for a later statement, I came across a bunch of information about the Azurite nation

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/2/25/Azure_City_Area.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20170225012711
This map is from War and XPs, as is most of the other information discussed below.

Robinsegg and Blueriver Fort are both Azurite territories. Given that Hinjo et al didn't flee to Robinsegg or the couple of unnamed coastal towns, it's safe to assume that Redcloak didn't let them be and conquered all Azurite territories. (Tell me he doesn't sound like a completionist.)

But even if we accept that, the rest is...questionable. "Several days' march" isn't that big of a country even for pre-automobile times, and having big cities on each "end" of the country isn't a strategic vulnerability...though whether the hobgoblin camp counts as a "big city" is the biggest question of all, since Jirix refers to it as a village (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

Cool map. Useful, too.
Now, if we check the map and what is established in-comic, we shall, by necessity, conclude that as far as the shape and size of Gobbotopia is concerned, your theory might sound like something Redcloak would perhaps do, but we only have confirmation for my position: „seventeen nations (…) recognized our borders, stretching from here – in Gobbotopia City – through the fertile Blueriver Valley and back to the mountain forts where so many of your wives and children still live” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), says Redcloak. This would mean that Robinsegg was unconquered at the time of the Gobbotopia Speech(, and I highly doubt that Xykon let the army make such detours towards the south before the siege, anyway), which would, in turn, mean that the goblinoids only control a narrow strip of land as I suggested. As for its approximate length, we can refer to Jirix from the strip you quoted (a week's woth of forced marching).
As for the size of the „hobgoblin camp”, see strip no. 197 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html). From the same strip we know it's not only a major, fortified settlement with layered defenses, but it also has the population to fit. The mook lieutenant tells Redcloak the city and the outpost Team Evil visits first has a standing army consisting of 88 legions. A „legion” is implied to be of the size of a small battalion, 300 man, give or take a few. That's roughly 26400 soldiers. Now, during and after the siege we do not see a single soldier, who isn't an able bodied, none too old male (we see a female cleric, but all clerics may or may not formally serve in the army). The hobgoblins appear to reproduce sexually, and certainly have females. It is safe to assume that the number of able-bodied, none too old females is similar, or (given that hobo soldiers eagerly obey orders even if doing so is tantamount to a suicide) higher. That would put the adult population above 52000 if all able-bodied none too old males serve in the standing army (which might not be a case, cf. the two named hobgoblins from Good Deeds). If there are only about half as many children and elderly as that (which is unlikely, since it would mean the community does not have a healthy rate of reproduction), the total population is already more than 75000, but like I implied, we have reasons to believe that it should be even more. Now, Azure City, which Elan calls the largest port of the South only has 9000 soldiers (male and female; according to General Chang, see 413 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html)), while the civilian population is „[t]ens of thousands, maybe more” (as per Lien, see 414 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html)), which would put the total population slightly above 100-110000.
Therefore, I'd say the settlement even your map calls Hobgoblin City is fairly large.


Which is why TDO is confident that Jirix's battles will be of logistics, diplomacy, and intrigue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

Sure, Azure City could mobilize 10,000 soldiers in a few days. They're also the largest city in the Southern Lands, and the 10k soldiers is their militia after the militarization which presumably happened during a couple generations when the city was literally protecting the fabric of reality. (There were some pretty serious changes made to the Azurite government post-Soon, what with them getting a new castle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) reaching high above any building in the original city (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).)
In short: By all appearances, everyone in the Southern Lands has fewer people and less reason to train soldiers than Azure City did. Maybe they could raise more than twice the number of soldiers that Azure City has, but a slight numerical advantage wouldn't overcome the advantage provided by Azure City's walls, especially when you account for how fragmented command would be. (Turning to real-world history, that was a major problem with the Crusades. There was a nominal commander, but most crusaders were loyal to princes and lords from wherever they came from, and this caused issues—up to and including crusaders fighting each other, locking each other out of occupied towns to be ambushed by enemies, and abandoning the Crusade en masse.)

TL;DR: TDO isn't worried about military battles. I wouldn't be, either.

Yes, Azure City should have an exceptionally large army, but the other nations are, well, many. As for the disadvantage this would present, you should also consider that a probably even larger goblinoid army was defeated before, after Big Purple's death, also by a many-nations, many-species coalition.
All in all, since I don't agree with much in your strategic analysis, I cannot agree with your conclusions, either.



See, that's not true. The rift's growth is slowing, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) and it hasn't done anything to the world outside the rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). Maybe that's changed since gate #4 got destroyed, but there's nothing suggesting that's the case (no sign that Dorukan or Lirian's gates have increased in size, no sign that Gobbotopia has been dealing with Snarl problems since then, etc), which means that the only reason to bring that possibility up is to point out the lack of evidence for it.


The Rift in itself is harmless. The true danger is the Snarl. The fact that it did not attack yet doesn't mean it won't in the near future. And the Snarl bursting out of the Rift the way it did in the desert on a major population center would be a disaster.

[RatElemental]

I think the Giant's analogy is probably a bit flawed. The benefits of 'employment' in this case was standing within theological politicking, which is why Greg was able to kill the creed of stone with impunity. I don't think the Giant meant to imply that notheistic clerics actually have to go without spells sometimes, like a freelance writer who is having trouble finding any clients. When you're magically linked up with a distributed network of quasi-divine beings, I find it very unlikely that you won't be able to fill your spell slots unless you've done something to betray your philosophy hard enough that were you a theistic cleric you'd have fallen anyway.

[Metastachydium]

I think the Giant's analogy is probably a bit flawed. The benefits of 'employment' in this case was standing within theological politicking, which is why Greg was able to kill the creed of stone with impunity. I don't think the Giant meant to imply that notheistic clerics actually have to go without spells sometimes, like a freelance writer who is having trouble finding any clients. When you're magically linked up with a distributed network of quasi-divine beings, I find it very unlikely that you won't be able to fill your spell slots unless you've done something to betray your philosophy hard enough that were you a theistic cleric you'd have fallen anyway.

And, naturally and obviously, you are free to think that. Meanwhile, I'll think otherwise.
I would assume that powerful Earth Elementals and the like do not necessarily need Belief, Worship &c., or at any rate not as much as gods do, and thereby they should care less about possible clerics in general. They have no formal, do-ut-des kind of responsibilities towards their worshippers: they may choose to assist them, and they may choose to ignore them, with nothing tying their hands.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't think you understand how non-theistic clerics work. Or other clerics, really. There's not actually a higher power assigning them spells. They just have what they want and can cast.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think you understand how non-theistic clerics work. Or other clerics, really. There's not actually a higher power assigning them spells. They just have what they want and can cast.

You sure (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) about that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1135.html)?

[RatElemental]

And, naturally and obviously, you are free to think that. Meanwhile, I'll think otherwise.
I would assume that powerful Earth Elementals and the like do not necessarily need Belief, Worship &c., or at any rate not as much as gods do, and thereby they should care less about possible clerics in general. They have no formal, do-ut-des kind of responsibilities towards their worshippers: they may choose to assist them, and they may choose to ignore them, with nothing tying their hands.

In 3.5 DND nontheistic clerics work exactly like normal ones do, except they get to pick their domains directly. We have seen in comic that nontheistic clerics exist and can cast spells, and everything is DND until proven otherwise (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15200597&postcount=148). Furthermore, we have yet to see a nontheistic cleric have to deal with not being able to cast spells for reasons other than having already expended them, and the Giant's deviations from the rules on the subject have been just about how they get their spells.

I think the evidence is in favor of nontheistic clerics not having to worry day to day if they get to cast spells.


5.) As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as written—like Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.

[LadyEowyn]

Well, if said authority figures can channel actual divine power, (among other things) they heal the sick and the wounded, they decide who stays dead and who doesn't and they often have significant political influence as such... Their word and their decrees might pack more punch than you imply.
Thor, manifesting in-person in the afterlife, recently failed to convince two deeply devout followers that trees are not evil.

Trees do not - objectively - have a centuries-long history of war with the dwarves (irrespective of how the dwarves may see it). There is a long history of conflict between goblinoids and PC species.

So in-comic precedent isn’t looking good.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. What's the old joke? When it comes to any human activity versus rationality, bet on rationality getting a consolation prize.

[Peelee]

Yeah. What's the old joke? When it comes to any human activity versus rationality, bet on rationality getting a consolation prize.

Economics is based on people acting rationally, which perfectly explains why there are no correct economists.

[Fyraltari]

Economics is based on people acting rationally, which perfectly explains why there are no correct economists.

Nah, the problem is that it assumes that all people want is financial security/ever-increasing amout of money when people are actaully much more complicated than that.

[Metastachydium]

In 3.5 DND nontheistic clerics work exactly like normal ones do, except they get to pick their domains directly. We have seen in comic that nontheistic clerics exist and can cast spells, and everything is DND until proven otherwise (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15200597&postcount=148). Furthermore, we have yet to see a nontheistic cleric have to deal with not being able to cast spells for reasons other than having already expended them, and the Giant's deviations from the rules on the subject have been just about how they get their spells.

I think the evidence is in favor of nontheistic clerics not having to worry day to day if they get to cast spells.



Rright. Now, you see, I'm not an expert on how non-theistic religions work in D&D, so you're gonna have to help me sort this out.

1. Does the Giant's explication of how it works in the Stickverse (see below) contradict or deviate from standard D&D canon's take on the subject?

EDIT: I probably should have read the first sentence of what I'm quoting; round 1 is all yours.


This is how I have always understood it (and keep in mind this is a basic D&D answer, and not a statement about OOTS per se):

On the most basic level, the substance of D&D multiverse is able to be shaped by personal belief. This is one of the main tenets of the Planescape setting, where planar locations shift around based on the moral leanings of the population. Most mortals don't have enough belief to really accomplish anything on their own, though, but the gods do. So mortals become clerics of a god, and their devotion to the god allows the god to funnel that belief-power back to them in the form of concrete magical effects. The gods aren't really the source of the power as much as they are the catalyst to convert it into something useful. They can tinker with the power in the process, by dictating spells or withholding power or what have you.

Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

2. Do standard D&D gods need Belief, Worship, Dedication and Souls to stay healthy and/or alive? What about powerful Eart Elementals and the like?

If tThe answer to 1. is NO, whereas ; if the answer to 2. is YES TO BOTH, you win, period. If that's not the case, I'd say I have some wiggling room at the very least.


Thor, manifesting in-person in the afterlife, recently failed to convince two deeply devout followers that trees are not evil.

Trees do not - objectively - have a centuries-long history of war with the dwarves (irrespective of how the dwarves may see it). There is a long history of conflict between goblinoids and PC species.

So in-comic precedent isn’t looking good.

Hard to argue. Nevertheless, he didn't try all that hard, he didn't threaten them with repercussions if they don't change their mind, and roots encroaching on tunnels can be a real nuisance, or even dangerous. Not to mention that both devout followers accepted the idea that ”rebel trees” on the side of righteousness (read: not on the ”needs smiting immediately” list) do exist (a reasonable deal should not mean that goblinoids are free to raid whatever they want with impunity, after all) and that it was a joke.


When it comes to any human activity

What's this blatant anthropocentrism you have running here?

[Fyraltari]

Trees do not - objectively - have a centuries-long history of war with the dwarves

Leeky Windstaff: Well, not with this attitude!

[Rogar Demonblud]

What's this blatant anthropocentrism you have running here?

What, you've never noticed that everybody in D&D are just humans with varying degrees of Rubber Foreheads?

[Fyraltari]

What, you've never noticed that everybody in D&D are just humans with varying degrees of Rubber Foreheads?

Except the humans. They are actually robots in disguise.

[RatElemental]

Rright. Now, you see, I'm not an expert on how non-theistic religions work in D&D, so you're gonna have to help me sort this out.

1. Does the Giant's explication of how it works in the Stickverse (see below) contradict or deviate from standard D&D canon's take on the subject?

EDIT: I probably should have read the first sentence of what I'm quoting; round 1 is all yours.


Guess I'll skip this one?





2. Do standard D&D gods need Belief, Worship, Dedication and Souls to stay healthy and/or alive? What about powerful Eart Elementals and the like?

If tThe answer to 1. is NO, whereas ; if the answer to 2. is YES TO BOTH, you win, period. If that's not the case, I'd say I have some wiggling room at the very least.

The answer to 1 is "it depends." In the forgotten realms the gods do need mortals to believe in them, specifically because Ao set things up such that they do, and there's (controversial) consequences for atheists and heretics. In Ebberon deities can't even be proven to exist. In Oerth they do exist, but whether you worship them or not is just a matter of whether they have you as a lackey on the material plane or not.

For 2, in pretty much all DND settings I'm aware of, powerful elementals aren't even what's powering nontheistic clerical magic. How that works changes based on setting: In Oerth gods aren't the only source of divine magic, just aligning yourself with the right ideals can grant you that power (which is how druids work). In Ebberon atheistic clerics would be in name only, they still need to pick a patron god or end up squirming in the wall of the faithless. In Ebberon there's little actual distinction between a possibly divine blue fire worshiped as a god and a possibly divine elemental far off on a plane somewhere granting you magic.

For what it's worth, Oerth is the "default" DND setting, so oots probably cleaves closest to it in most things.

On second thought, the Giant seems to be pulling from planescape mostly, at least in matters of deities. I don't recall deities needing mortals to survive in that one, though.

[Jacky720]

Guess I'll skip this one?

The answer to 1 is "it depends." In the forgotten realms the gods do need mortals to believe in them, specifically because Ao set things up such that they do, and there's (controversial) consequences for atheists and heretics. In Ebberon deities can't even be proven to exist. In Oerth they do exist, but whether you worship them or not is just a matter of whether they have you as a lackey on the material plane or not.

For 2, in pretty much all DND settings I'm aware of, powerful elementals aren't even what's powering nontheistic clerical magic. How that works changes based on setting: In Oerth gods aren't the only source of divine magic, just aligning yourself with the right ideals can grant you that power (which is how druids work). In Ebberon atheistic clerics would be in name only, they still need to pick a patron god or end up squirming in the wall of the faithless. In Ebberon there's little actual distinction between a possibly divine blue fire worshiped as a god and a possibly divine elemental far off on a plane somewhere granting you magic.

For what it's worth, Oerth is the "default" DND setting, so oots probably cleaves closest to it in most things.

In comic 80 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) (Banjo's introduction) we get this exchange:

:roy: Elan, You [sic] cannot be the cleric of a hand puppet clown.
:elan: Sure I can! Technically, you can be a cleric of a "cause".

Probably relevant?

[Quizatzhaderac]

To be fair, it would be a surprising development if the impending END OF THE FREAKIN' WORLD were not to have an impact on the overarching storyline

In the end Roy learns that it doesn't matter if the world is destroyed or not, what matters is being authentic to himself.

Well, in the near-end. In the actual end, there is no "Roy" to know such a thing.

Or maybe that'll be Xykon's moral


That, and the fact that Tiamat stikes me as a loose cannon with an agenda of her own. Or maybe five conflicting agendas of her own.

[Schroeswald]

Except the humans. They are actually robots in disguise.

If Elan was a transformer, which one would he be?

[The_Weirdo]

I'll admit I didn't read the whole thread, but, WRT deities and respecting their wishes "by their orders", I just wanna throw the following out there - with apologies if it's been said:

1- There is a vast gulf between acknowledging someone's power (of any kind) and liking them, respecting them, being willing to obey them or even believing they deserve to keep existing. Hel is powerful. I am fairly certain that all dwarves still want her out of the picture, preferably with extreme prejudice. They fear her, sure, but fear isn't respect and, in this one case, it isn't obedience either. Fear just imitates respect fairly well in many cases and is easier to obtain.

2- There is a vast gulf between being willing to obey someone and fully understanding (or even acknowledging/fully hearing) their orders. To wit, Thor's orders to Durkon and Minrah.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If Elan was a transformer, which one would he be?

Elan-B of the AutoSticks, IIRC. We had a thread about this some time ago.

[Metastachydium]

The answer to 1 is "it depends." In the forgotten realms the gods do need mortals to believe in them, specifically because Ao set things up such that they do, and there's (controversial) consequences for atheists and heretics. In Ebberon deities can't even be proven to exist. In Oerth they do exist, but whether you worship them or not is just a matter of whether they have you as a lackey on the material plane or not.

For 2, in pretty much all DND settings I'm aware of, powerful elementals aren't even what's powering nontheistic clerical magic. How that works changes based on setting: In Oerth gods aren't the only source of divine magic, just aligning yourself with the right ideals can grant you that power (which is how druids work). In Ebberon atheistic clerics would be in name only, they still need to pick a patron god or end up squirming in the wall of the faithless. In Ebberon there's little actual distinction between a possibly divine blue fire worshiped as a god and a possibly divine elemental far off on a plane somewhere granting you magic.

For what it's worth, Oerth is the "default" DND setting, so oots probably cleaves closest to it in most things.

On second thought, the Giant seems to be pulling from planescape mostly, at least in matters of deities. I don't recall deities needing mortals to survive in that one, though.

Good enough for me. This would mean that you are probably right to assume that for all we know, making non-theistic worship prevalent or even dominant might be a viable option for mortals. Nonetheless, Stickverse gods need mortals more than standard D&D gods tend to, so I'd say the answer to your original question (”what would happen if a majority of mortals (or even just a large enough minority of them) decided to get all their clerical mojo that way and nuts to the gods”) is that the gods would likely try to bargain with the entities granting mortals spells in their stead to pedal back and give up much of their share of the market (because they need Worship and Dedication more than these entities do), and if that were to fail, they would just destroy the world, wipe the memories of everyone who's not a god, and start anew, perhaps taking some extra precautions to prevent the same thing from happening again. I don't really see them conceding defeat and starving to death.

[KorvinStarmast]

What, you've never noticed that everybody in D&D are just humans with varying degrees of Rubber Foreheads? Or are they just wearing "Mission Impossible" masks?

[The MunchKING]

Or are they just wearing "Mission Impossible" masks?

Of COURSE Not!! The Tarrasque is clearly TWO guys in a tarrasque-suit. :smalltongue:

[Schroeswald]

Elan-B of the AutoSticks, IIRC. We had a thread about this some time ago.

I really shouldn’t be surprised by this forum at this point but, yeah, this still surprised me because I guess a year isn’t enough to be able to really understand us, how many years does it take for that?

[Doctor West]

Look to the left. See my join date?
Longer than that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I really shouldn’t be surprised by this forum at this point but, yeah, this still surprised me because I guess a year isn’t enough to be able to really understand us, how many years does it take for that?

Honestly? I think we still surprise the Giant, and he's been here since the beginning.

Anyway, we're due to go off the rails about now. Last thread we talked about seafood. What do we do this time?

[Schroeswald]

Honestly? I think we still surprise the Giant, and he's been here since the beginning.

Anyway, we're due to go off the rails about now. Last thread we talked about seafood. What do we do this time?

Well, how about that Tarquin fellow? I think that he's a lot like [Insert Discworld character, haven't read them, you choose, if you want to try to respond with a dumb debate just replace this bit with a character], in that they are both Chaotic Good, which is the ideology of Miko Firehelm.

[Squire Doodad]

Well, how about that Tarquin fellow? I think that he's a lot like [Insert Discworld character, haven't read them, you choose, if you want to try to respond with a dumb debate just replace this bit with a character], in that they are both Chaotic Good, which is the ideology of Miko Firehelm.

How about we discuss the depiction of the dinosaurs in the Western Continent? I have a thing or two to say about having a brontosaurus, or the general physique of the pterosaurs...

[Doug Lampert]

Well, how about that Tarquin fellow? I think that he's a lot like [Insert Discworld character, haven't read them, you choose, if you want to try to respond with a dumb debate just replace this bit with a character], in that they are both Chaotic Good, which is the ideology of Miko Firehelm.

Captain Carrot obviously. Carrot and Tarquin are both trying to impose some slight order, stability, and law enforcement on an Evil region. Both are behind the scenes autocratic rulers and both are primarily physical combatants when forced to fight.

Admittedly, Tarquin has a cat-girl while Carrot has a werewolf, but other than that, they're practically the same character.

[Fyraltari]

Does that make Malack Samuel Vimes?

[Cazero]

Does that make Malack Samuel Vimes?
Don't be silly. He wears black robes. He's a high official. He mostly operates behind the scenes. He's obviously Vetinari.

[Doug Lampert]

Don't be silly. He wears black robes. He's a high official. He mostly operates behind the scenes. He's obviously Vetinari.

Makes sense. The Dragon from Guard's Guards is very big and female, so she's the Empress of Blood. [Edited to add, she also is "king" for a while.]

So, which members of the Linear Guild are Nobby and Colon? Do we have enough to decide?

[KorvinStarmast]

Of COURSE Not!! The Tarrasque is clearly TWO guys in a tarrasque-suit. :smalltongue: How did not see through that clever disguise? :smalleek:
*note to self: visit opthamologist next Thursday...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wouldn't be much of a disguise if you could see through it.

[Zonkerbl]

I appreciate that Durkon is trying hard but the obvious answer is "They've done it already, an almost infinite number of times"

Why would Durkon go to "because evil is more powerful than good"?

[Jacky720]

I appreciate that Durkon is trying hard but the obvious answer is "They've done it already, an almost infinite number of times"

Why would Durkon go to "because evil is more powerful than good"?

Because your answer doesn't actually answer Redcloak's question of "Why would the good gods destroy the world?" It just asserts that they did, which isn't particularly helpful (and may be bad for the negotiations for a number of other reasons).

[Quizatzhaderac]

Of COURSE Not!! The Tarrasque is clearly TWO guys in a tarrasque-suit. :smalltongue:Yes, but those two guys are cloud giants.

Those cloud giants are, of course, are two ogres each.

The ogres are two elves each.

The elves (naturally) are two halflings each.

Each halfling is two grigs.

Each grig is two humans, polymorphed into mice.

Obviously each of those humans is an expert wearing one of 64 rubber foreheads of transformation.

Well, how about that Tarquin fellow? I think that he's a lot like [Insert Discworld character, haven't read them, you choose, if you want to try to respond with a dumb debate just replace this bit with a character]You mean mean smaller-then-medium-Jock-but-bigger-than-wee-Jock-Jock?

I wish they made a third trilogy about him.


Wouldn't be much of a disguise if you could see through it.It could be the clever if the disguise is of a ghost; just as long as you can see through the disguised person as well as the disguise.

[Zonkerbl]

Because your answer doesn't actually answer Redcloak's question of "Why would the good gods destroy the world?" It just asserts that they did, which isn't particularly helpful (and may be bad for the negotiations for a number of other reasons).

Redcloak doesn't *believe* that the good gods would destroy the world. "The idea that they would do the same to your people strains credulity." He doesn't ask "Why would they do such a thing" which anyway an evil cleric would never ask. Of course he would (and should) do it if it was in his self interest, but from what he understands of good aligned gods they have some kind of problem with stuff like that.

It's actually interesting that Durkon answers the question he thought Redcloack was asking that he hears through the prism of his good alignment. All Redcloak really needs is evidence that they would in fact do it. He doesn't care why, he already knows why, Durkon already explained it to him.

[Yirggzmb]

Redcloak doesn't *believe* that the good gods would destroy the world. "The idea that they would do the same to your people strains credulity." He doesn't ask "Why would they do such a thing" which anyway an evil cleric would never ask. Of course he would (and should) do it if it was in his self interest, but from what he understands of good aligned gods they have some kind of problem with stuff like that.

It's actually interesting that Durkon answers the question he thought Redcloack was asking that he hears through the prism of his good alignment. All Redcloak really needs is evidence that they would in fact do it. He doesn't care why, he already knows why, Durkon already explained it to him.

Of course, that does presume that Redcloak would believe him.

On the other hand, "there's more non-good gods than there are good gods" is something even Redcloak would be hardpressed to deny.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's answering the question without really answering the question. The real answer would be something like 'They want to make sure they get their followers' souls rather than see them get eaten by The Snarl'.

[Jacky720]

It's answering the question without really answering the question. The real answer would be something like 'They want to make sure they get their followers' souls rather than see them get eaten by The Snarl'.

I think Redcloak's issue is that they are getting their followers' souls by murdering all of them at once- although your answer works if you take a moment to ponder it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Very same feeling. we do know IFCC goal is to (somehow):
- continue Hel's program (at least, Hel's effort indefinitely stalled, and was too much to ask gods to do their job (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)).
- tear down the Good-gods (which implicitly happen if Hel overcome Odin power (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html))
You've got things backwards. Their goal is to tear down the Good gods; Hel was going to do that for them if her plan succeeded, but it didn't. If their goal was "continu Hel's program," they wouldn't say "it cost us nothing" when she failed.



I wouldn't say it was a rival CEO. More like the managerial equivalent of your uncle: up one, over one.
Evil isn't one big, happy family. It's not even a big, angry family. It's a bunch of squabbling organizations with shared enemies.


I'm not sure whether the link (removed because new account) refers to Shojo or Miko, but it doesn't work either way. The Twelve Gods aren't inherently Lawful, and "everything I did was for my people" wasn't wrong, in Shojo's case; and literally one strip later, Miko gets serious divine comeuppance for messing it up.

It comes at a cost, though. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)
Miko, and that's not the point. Miko was [I]eventually punished, but only for literally murdering her daimyo. (Suzerain? Lord? Boss?)
Point 1: Even divinely-ordained servants of the gods can go against their desires. Exactly what I said, exactly what that means. Priests won't always do what their gods tell them to; they might even stick to what their gods used to tell them, if it changes "out of nowhere".
Point 2: Unless you're going to argue that everything Miko did before that was according to the Gods' will, Miko did plenty of other stuff that wasn't punished.



Wow. You're for sure methodical.
I do try.


Like I said, clerics are badly needed parts of most Stickverse societies, and they are servants of the gods. I don't believe Stickverse could function properly without clerics, so their word is more likely to be heeded than that of any secular real life leader who cannot resurrect people working with just half a handful of ashes or a toenail.
I strongly disagree with the idea that some clerics being able to resurrect people makes all clerics more likely to be listened to, and in fact question whether it makes people more likely to listen to those clerics when resurrection magic is such an inherent part of the setting.


As for how hard a cleric has to screw up, in strip no. 407 we saw a divine caster stripped of her power. All she did was break her vows big time, killing someone she shouldn't have killed, which, mutatis mutandis, is the same thing the clerics should vow to do in the scenario we are talking about: not kill members of a group for some dumb/no reason.
That is not the same reason.
Miko killed Lord Shojo, her...boss, mentor, adoptive father (or something similar, I don't remember the details), etc.


The Gates are a very good stop-gap measure, but little more than that.
As you can see, I kinda...forgot to finish that sentence—the period wasn't supposed to go there. I don't remember what I intended to write before getting distracted by some other point (so much for methodical), but it might have been something like:

And yes it's not a permanent fix, but it has worked well for an exceptional length of time, well enough that the gods didn't consider remaking the world until a couple groups of idiots started burning them down or blowing them up. With the direct backing of a network of elementals or whatever capable of granting divine spells, the gates could presumably function even better.
And who knows what ur-priests could do?



Nevertheless, he didn't try all that hard, he didn't threaten them with repercussions if they don't change their mind, and roots encroaching on tunnels can be a real nuisance, or even dangerous.
This is two arguments. One is the assertion that Thor didn't really try to convince them, which is an unconvincing argument which relies on the assumption that he could have if he tried. The other is the argument that trees are, in fact, a threat to dwarves like they believe, which is patently ridiculous, because they are trees. They're a nuisance, and can occasionally destabilize near-surface tunnels if left unchecked for too long, but they're just trees!


Not to mention that both devout followers accepted the idea that ”rebel trees” on the side of righteousness (read: not on the ”needs smiting immediately” list) do exist (a reasonable deal should not mean that goblinoids are free to raid whatever they want with impunity, after all)
A whole bunch of assertions bundled up in here. Let's start by pointing out that trees in Valhalla are much more plausible as "rebels" than goblins in the same places goblins always are. Let's continue by pointing out that the PC races do not, in fact, leave "monstrous" races alone when they aren't actively raiding; Origin shows Roy and Durkon in a group of adventurers who are gung-ho to slaughter a tribe of orcs camping out early for good concert tickets.

And finally...the biggest reason why Thor's lie was able to work is that the trees couldn't contradict it. Thor could make up any story he liked and they wouldn't accidentally blow it apart by saying or doing the wrong thing. Goblins...not so much.


and that it was a joke.
Worst argument ever.
Blackwing started off as a joke. So did explosive runes. And Roy's bag of tricks. And the ylang-ylang moisturizer that Belkar used to track Haley. And that's just the stuff direct enough for TV Tropes to qualify it as a Chekov's Something; there are plenty of other examples, including the core character traits of the entire Order. And lest we forget, the first time Thor was even mentioned was a joke! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html)
Just because something is a joke doesn't mean it doesn't say something about the world of the story. If the story is well-written, at least.



Good enough for me. This would mean that you are probably right to assume that for all we know, making non-theistic worship prevalent or even dominant might be a viable option for mortals. Nonetheless, Stickverse gods need mortals more than standard D&D gods tend to, so I'd say the answer to your original question (”what would happen if a majority of mortals (or even just a large enough minority of them) decided to get all their clerical mojo that way and nuts to the gods”) is that the gods would likely try to bargain with the entities granting mortals spells in their stead to pedal back and give up much of their share of the market (because they need Worship and Dedication more than these entities do), and if that were to fail, they would just destroy the world, wipe the memories of everyone who's not a god, and start anew, perhaps taking some extra precautions to prevent the same thing from happening again. I don't really see them conceding defeat and starving to death.
I can't tell if this is more akin to monopolistic business practices or outright organized crime. Either way, probably accurate.



Good points made, but I must point out that this also confirms that Cliffport probably wouldn't have recognized Gobbotopia (at that point) if this hadn't meant that they can open a new front against the elves in this manner.
And the British Empire wouldn't have focused so much on its colonies if it had been trading with Spain. That doesn't mean the colonies weren't profitable in and of themselves. The fact that Gobbotopia is an effective front against the elves speaks to their economic significance.


As for the other 16 nations, I never implied they also had a thing with the elves.
Never tried to imply you did. I was just pointing out that the explanation you gave for Cliffport didn't explain the other sixteen, so there must be another reason.
I personally find the "They're scared of one guy who hasn't done anything visible since the siege" explanation...very weak. If Xykon (or Redcloak and his acolytes) went around terrorizing nations which didn't accept Gobbotopia, well that would be obvious, but as-is...there's no motivation to recognize them based on Xykon alone. Maybe he'll attack if you don't recognize Gobbotopia, or maybe you'll be attacked by his enemies, or maybe he'll attack you anyways because you sent him good coffee.


0. So much better, then.
1, 2. I'd guess it helps.
1. You don't understand the question. Of course it helps, but why does it help more if the things people believe happen to be true?
2. Your argument is...kinda weak. Especially since I could point to examples of the powers advanced technology brings making people less trustworthy of their leaders, if discussing politics weren't forbidden. (Think of a dozen things that people call Orwellian, and at least one or two should be a decent example. Though most of them will be statements made by people who clearly never read 1984.)


Cool map. Useful, too.
Now, if we check the map and what is established in-comic, we shall, by necessity, conclude that as far as the shape and size of Gobbotopia is concerned, your theory might sound like something Redcloak would perhaps do, but we only have confirmation for my position: „seventeen nations (…) recognized our borders, stretching from here – in Gobbotopia City – through the fertile Blueriver Valley and back to the mountain forts where so many of your wives and children still live” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), says Redcloak.
Good catch!
If you'll allow me to draw a sketch of what I think likely borders would be:
https://imgur.com/a/yKWahPB
Obviously, this is less secure than I initially imagined, but it's hardly defenseless. I wouldn't call it a "narrow strip" (though I guess it could be if the goblins didn't bother to control the main roads and instead traveled along obscure mountain trails), and most of the land is mountainous.

Still not sure why Hinjo didn't just dock in Robinsegg though.


As for the size of the „hobgoblin camp”, see strip no. 197 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html). From the same strip we know it's not only a major, fortified settlement with layered defenses, but it also has the population to fit. The mook lieutenant tells Redcloak the city and the outpost Team Evil visits first has a standing army consisting of 88 legions. A „legion” is implied to be of the size of a small battalion, 300 man, give or take a few. That's roughly 26400 soldiers.
I'd like to start by pointing out that your assumption on the size of a legion doesn't seem to be justified anywhere that I can find. Also, the hobgoblin said "the rest of your 87 legions," not "the other 87 legions"—my your assumptions, he would only have ~26,100 soldiers.
I'd like to continue by admitting that I tried to count the number of visible buildings. I lost track around one hundred, about halfway through. That's not many places to put over 50,000 people in—and if most family homes are just too small to be visible in that image, the larger buildings would make Harren the Black (https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Harrenhal#History) feel inadequate. The hobgoblin settlement is clearly fortified, but the very image you cited shows that it can't be a metropolis. The idea that only settlements of a certain size could be so fortified is ridiculous, especially when you remember that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra]the original legions were well-known for setting up fortified settlements, often for forces of less than 500 men.


Yes, Azure City should have an exceptionally large army, but the other nations are, well, many. As for the disadvantage this would present, you should also consider that a probably even larger goblinoid army was defeated before, after Big Purple's death, also by a many-nations, many-species coalition.
Is that really a spoiler?
Anyways, you're making assertions. On one hand, that the nations which refused to help Hinjo would be able and willing to form an effective coalition against Gobbotopia; on the other, that Gobbotopia (which currently shows no interest in expanding, and has entrenched itself in multiple fortified settlements) is the same kind of threat as TDO (who was an active warlord and didn't seem to have fortresses under his control).


The Rift in itself is harmless. The true danger is the Snarl. The fact that it did not attack yet doesn't mean it won't in the near future. And the Snarl bursting out of the Rift the way it did in the desert on a major population center would be a disaster.
So would a tsunami. There's no evidence suggesting Azure City is in any danger of a tsunami, so it shouldn't be taken into consideration for strategic analysis.




Economics is based on people acting rationally, which perfectly explains why there are no correct economists.Nah, the problem is that it assumes that all people want is financial security/ever-increasing amout of money when people are actaully much more complicated than that.
Both of you are wrong, but Fyraltari is more wrong.
Economic models make certain assumptions about humanity so that their models work. For instance, they (mostly correctly) assume that peoples' economic decisions are, by and large, driven by their economic needs and resources. They also assume perfect information availability, perfect rationality, and so on because modeling obfuscation of relevant facts and short-sighted impulses is impractical; this is a far less correct assumption.

Of course, not all economists stick exclusively to the models. Some point to those very assumptions and extrapolate how their untruth leads to real-world deviations from those models.



I really shouldn’t be surprised by this forum at this point but, yeah, this still surprised me because I guess a year isn’t enough to be able to really understand us, how many years does it take for that?
More than eleven.

[HiddenTrack]

I really thought that this confrontation wouldn't happen until MUCH later on. And I thought it'd be a NO REDCLOAK YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING! JOIN US! type affair mid-battle, rather than a straightforward sit down.

Very nice opener, but I feel like this can only end Very Badly.

I suppose main question is does Redcloak end this ominously on his own terms, or will Xykon come in just as some sort of persuasive revelation happens...?

[F.Harr]

They do wor well together. Elan will not be surprised.

[Jacky720]

I'd like to start by pointing out that your assumption on the size of a legion doesn't seem to be justified anywhere that I can find.

Comic 197, same one linked above- Legion 1 is the 300 or so hobgoblins that live in the first valley. Now, this technically doesn't imply anything about the exact size of the other 86 legions, since it would be weird for the legion-size measuring stick to match up with the first valley's occupancy, but it's definitely on the right order of magnitude.

[Kornaki]

I don't understand the debate about the army size. They even tell us in the comic there are 30,000 soldiers in the army, minus whatever zombies there are.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html

[Peelee]

Both of you are wrong, but Fyraltari is more wrong.
Economic models make certain assumptions about humanity so that their models work. For instance, they (mostly correctly) assume that peoples' economic decisions are, by and large, driven by their economic needs and resources. They also assume perfect information availability, perfect rationality, and so on because modeling obfuscation of relevant facts and short-sighted impulses is impractical; this is a far less correct assumption.

Of course, not all economists stick exclusively to the models. Some point to those very assumptions and extrapolate how their untruth leads to real-world deviations from those models.

Indeed. Further, one of Mitch Hedberg's bedrooms was not, in fact, over in that guy's house.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'd like to continue by admitting that I tried to count the number of visible buildings. I lost track around one hundred, about halfway through. That's not many places to put over 50,000 people in—and if most family homes are just too small to be visible in that image, the larger buildings would make Harren the Black (https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Harrenhal#History) feel inadequate. I imagine there's a certain amount of laziness economy of effort on Rich's part. Two hundred buildings for one panel of one comic is a lot for a one man operation.

There are a number of tricks to make it appear that there are more of a thing in your image than you actually draw, and Rich used all of them that I recognize (I imagine he knows more than I). The number of buildings is too high to count sub-consciously. The contrast of the large and small buildings show the big buildings are very big and the small buildings are very many. Buildings are partial obscured by each other and the hill, so we assume many buildings are obscured (it's true that the settlement isn't dense enough to expect most are obscured, but Rich is hoping our quick glances aren't through) . The blocks are irregular and numerous enough that we lose track of how many blocks.

[Ruck]

I really thought that this confrontation wouldn't happen until MUCH later on. And I thought it'd be a NO REDCLOAK YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING! JOIN US! type affair mid-battle, rather than a straightforward sit down.

That's what I like about it; it is, to use the phrase that's been around about 2,300 years, "surprising, yet inevitable." It is surprising because we did not expect Durkon to go rogue on Roy; we realize it is inevitable, between Durkon's newfound assertiveness, commitment to his god (and his god's belief in his ability to convince Redcloak), and what else we know about his character.

[Metastachydium]

Miko, and that's not the point. Miko was eventually punished, but only for literally murdering her daimyo. (Suzerain? Lord? Boss?)
Point 1: Even divinely-ordained servants of the gods can go against their desires. Exactly what I said, exactly what that means. Priests won't always do what their gods tell them to; they might even stick to what their gods used to tell them, if it changes "out of nowhere".
Point 2: Unless you're going to argue that everything Miko did before that was according to the Gods' will, Miko did plenty of other stuff that wasn't punished.

We never saw Miko kill anyone she was not supposed to (innocent non-monsters, basically). She was trying to kill Redcloak, the Monster, Belkar, she killed a bunch of ogres… That kind of thing. If she were to go out on the streets and start randomly murdering innocents would have almost certainly yielded the same result.




I strongly disagree with the idea that some clerics being able to resurrect people makes all clerics more likely to be listened to, and in fact question whether it makes people more likely to listen to those clerics when resurrection magic is such an inherent part of the setting.

Eh, Resurrection's just an example here, big as it is, stop obsessing over it. If I remember correctly, the Giant said Soon died of old age at around 69, establishing that we should view this as something perfectly natural, given the hygiene standards of the setting. Clerics are the only thing standing between the denizens of the Stickverse and an untimely death caused by festering wounds, poor dental hygiene, poison, venom or what you will. And if soomeone dies anyway that's not a problem, either because hey, clerics. In 669 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) it's Roy of all people who opines that the lack of these options would alter the entire mindset of much everyone in the whole wide world.



As you can see, I kinda...forgot to finish that sentence—the period wasn't supposed to go there. I don't remember what I intended to write before getting distracted by some other point (so much for methodical)

That happens. It's not a big deal.


And yes it's not a permanent fix, but it has worked well for an exceptional length of time, well enough that the gods didn't consider remaking the world until a couple groups of idiots started burning them down or blowing them up. With the direct backing of a network of elementals or whatever capable of granting divine spells, the gates could presumably function even better.
And who knows what ur-priests could do?

Ur-priests might not even be a thing in the setting.
As for the rest, it could not function indefinitely. Anyhow, I had the impression (if „I can't tell if this is more akin to monopolistic business practices or outright organized crime. Either way, probably accurate” is anything to go by) that we kinda agree it's really a moot point.




This is two arguments. One is the assertion that Thor didn't really try to convince them, which is an unconvincing argument which relies on the assumption that he could have if he tried. The other is the argument that trees are, in fact, a threat to dwarves like they believe, which is patently ridiculous, because they are trees. They're a nuisance, and can occasionally destabilize near-surface tunnels if left unchecked for too long, but they're just trees!

Three, really. Also, the second one might be the key here. Putting aside the fact that that your position here (which boils down to „Thor couldn't convince them if he tried”) is as much an assumption as is my position – you are basically just equating didn't with couldn't –, Thor did not issue a decree, didn't threaten them with anything if they ignore his kindly little explanation and generally did not use any and all means necessary to change the outlook of his followers. Which is justified, since there was little if anything at stake. The dwarves tend to live mostly under ground level. If they „smite a tree”, the tree probably grew into their tunnels – which is a problem – or they are probably out on the surface to gather resources, say, wood, anyway. I don't have the impression that they go on regular crusades against the forests of the Elven Third in the West or anything. Thye don't do much harm by believing what they believe.
The thing with goblins is different. There's more to win and much more to lose.



A whole bunch of assertions bundled up in here. Let's start by pointing out that trees in Valhalla are much more plausible as "rebels" than goblins in the same places goblins always are. Let's continue by pointing out that the PC races do not, in fact, leave "monstrous" races alone when they aren't actively raiding; Origin shows Roy and Durkon in a group of adventurers who are gung-ho to slaughter a tribe of orcs camping out early for good concert tickets.

And finally...the biggest reason why Thor's lie was able to work is that the trees couldn't contradict it. Thor could make up any story he liked and they wouldn't accidentally blow it apart by saying or doing the wrong thing. Goblins...not so much.

No one really has to lie about the goblins. The lie people believe is Peregrine Commander's bovine excrement with „a good goblin is a dead goblin”. And the goblins can actually prove that wrong: we know for certain that not every last one of them is evil.
Also, the reason why „monsters” are not let be is that everyone is fairly convinced they can just slaughter them with impunity because they are inherently evil and the gods don't mind. The first assumption is wrong, while the second one being right is perhaps one of the chief reasons why mostly everyone buys into it anyway.


Worst argument ever.
Blackwing started off as a joke. So did explosive runes. And Roy's bag of tricks. And the ylang-ylang moisturizer that Belkar used to track Haley. And that's just the stuff direct enough for TV Tropes to qualify it as a Chekov's Something; there are plenty of other examples, including the core character traits of the entire Order. And lest we forget, the first time Thor was even mentioned was a joke! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html)
Just because something is a joke doesn't mean it doesn't say something about the world of the story. If the story is well-written, at least.

I've seen worse.
Anyhow, some of the jokes become important and some don't. I can cough up a long list of last panel stuff (the whole thing with the trees grows out of such a joke, incidentally) that has little bearing on the plot if you insist. After all, even Belkar says that „[y]ou can't take anything [he] say[s] in the last panel seriously” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).







And the British Empire wouldn't have focused so much on its colonies if it had been trading with Spain. That doesn't mean the colonies weren't profitable in and of themselves. The fact that Gobbotopia is an effective front against the elves speaks to their economic significance.

Azure City was an ally and business partner of the elves. Gobbotopia isn't, which is good for Cliffport. That's all the „economic significance” we know they have.



Never tried to imply you did. I was just pointing out that the explanation you gave for Cliffport didn't explain the other sixteen, so there must be another reason.
I personally find the "They're scared of one guy who hasn't done anything visible since the siege" explanation...very weak. If Xykon (or Redcloak and his acolytes) went around terrorizing nations which didn't accept Gobbotopia, well that would be obvious, but as-is...there's no motivation to recognize them based on Xykon alone. Maybe he'll attack if you don't recognize Gobbotopia, or maybe you'll be attacked by his enemies, or maybe he'll attack you anyways because you sent him good coffee.

That one guy didn't do much they witnessed before the siege, either. The invasion came out of the blue, so to say.
At any rate, I have difficulty believing that they recognized them because they liked them so much.



1. You don't understand the question. Of course it helps, but why does it help more if the things people believe happen to be true?
2. Your argument is...kinda weak. Especially since I could point to examples of the powers advanced technology brings making people less trustworthy of their leaders, if discussing politics weren't forbidden. (Think of a dozen things that people call Orwellian, and at least one or two should be a decent example. Though most of them will be statements made by people who clearly never read 1984.)

There's nothing miraculous about modern technology. Also, it can do a lot less than divine magic, it is a little more difficult to take away from the people at will, and those in research and development cannot blow up the world and flee to the Astral Plane to make another later if they don't like what's happening. Meaning no offense, I think your analogy is weaker than my argument, by simple virtue of not really working.



Good catch!
If you'll allow me to draw a sketch of what I think likely borders would be:
https://imgur.com/a/yKWahPB
Obviously, this is less secure than I initially imagined, but it's hardly defenseless. I wouldn't call it a "narrow strip" (though I guess it could be if the goblins didn't bother to control the main roads and instead traveled along obscure mountain trails), and most of the land is mountainous.

Still not sure why Hinjo didn't just dock in Robinsegg though.

I never said it's completely defenseless, I said it's hard to defend due to the inconvenient shape. As for Robinsegg… Heck knows. Perhaps the Giant just forgot about it.
(At any rate, could you resend the sketch? It did not come through, and that made me sad. I like maps.)



I'd like to start by pointing out that your assumption on the size of a legion doesn't seem to be justified anywhere that I can find. Also, the hobgoblin said "the rest of your 87 legions," not "the other 87 legions"—my your assumptions, he would only have ~26,100 soldiers.

Sue me. NOt that subtracting 900 souls from my final count changes much anything; I was rounding the estimated minimum down anyway.


I'd like to continue by admitting that I tried to count the number of visible buildings. I lost track around one hundred, about halfway through. That's not many places to put over 50,000 people in—and if most family homes are just too small to be visible in that image, the larger buildings would make Harren the Black (https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Harrenhal#History) feel inadequate. The hobgoblin settlement is clearly fortified, but the very image you cited shows that it can't be a metropolis. The idea that only settlements of a certain size could be so fortified is ridiculous, especially when you remember that the original legions were well-known for setting up fortified settlements, often for forces of less than 500 men.

As Jacky 720, Kornaki and Quizatzhaderac pointed out, those are not really good points. We know the size of one of the legions, which should mean the others are of similar size (the hobgoblins are quite disciplined, you know). Also, my numbers are consistent with the canonical size of the army (which is shown on numerous occasions to consist in its vast majority of hobgoblins rather than the undead), much unlike your assumptions.
As for the hobgoblin settlement, allow me to emphasize again that the canonical map calls it a city; in the Gobbotopia speech Redcloak says it has women and children (doesn't sound like a military camp, does it?); judging by the size of the shortest buildings many of the larger ones should have 5-6 floors at the very least, we don't know what the other side of the hill with the keep on top of it looks like, there might be tunnels and underground floors, as well as residential areas we don't see behind the hill or obscured by the bottom of the panel. Xykon and Redcloak imply on the same page that it's fairly large (you surely don't want to suggest that Xykon's comment is supposed to be read as „oh, a tiny, dusty village with funny walls and less than 500 men, I'm having an evilgasm”).
Also, Azure City is canonically described as a metropolis, but what we see of it doesn't seem large enough to hold 100000+ inhabitants, either (please refer to General Chang's model of the city walls (where we see how wide the city walls are as compared to the castle) as well as [URL="https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html"]484 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra) (for the distance between the walls and the sea)), and you're not calling it a village or a camp (obviously).



Is that really a spoiler?
Anyways, you're making assertions. On one hand, that the nations which refused to help Hinjo would be able and willing to form an effective coalition against Gobbotopia; on the other, that Gobbotopia (which currently shows no interest in expanding, and has entrenched itself in multiple fortified settlements) is the same kind of threat as TDO (who was an active warlord and didn't seem to have fortresses under his control).
No, it is not. BUt it is from SoD and the rules say we are supposed to use spoiler tags for stuff like that. I'm doing my best to play it safe, you know. The second day after I registered I got a warning for doing two admittedly really stupid things which I thought were harmless (because I did not read the rules of posting carefully enough; I know better now).
More to the point: it's hard to see why Southern nations wouldn't be worried about a goblinoid community which just wiped out, for all intents and purposes, one of the most powerful human states of the broader region. Also, the hypothesis that these Southern nations can form coalitions is no doubt a hypothesis rather than a fact, but so is your assumption. Not to mention such assumptions as „recognition means lack of hostile intent”.


So would a tsunami. There's no evidence suggesting Azure City is in any danger of a tsunami, so it shouldn't be taken into consideration for strategic analysis.

Above, I've said I've seen worse arguments than what you called the worst argument ever. This is one of them.
It is an established fact that Soon's Rift is large, open, and directly above Gobbotopia City. It is an established fact that the Snarl can burst out of such Rifts (we've seen it explode into Laurin's face, after all, and that wasn't a may-or-may-not-be-entirely-accurate flashback). There is ample evidence suggesting that the city is in danger, and the fact that they were lucky thus far does not disprove that evidence at all. Face it: Gobbotopia City is currently one of the four most dangerous places of the Stickworld, and the most densely populated one of the four as far as we know.
Saying that in its current form Gobbotopia is safe and fine is little better than stating (as many did before) that goblinoids should just relocate themselves into the Riftworld (which is a really, really bad idea).

[LadyEowyn]

In literary terms, the giant rift hanging over Gobbotopia is a Chekhov’s gun. The other rifts are in the middle of nowhere - the most obvious reason for showing, at the end of BRITF, that the Windy Canyon rift is an active threat is in order to establish that the rift over Gobbotopia is a threat.

So I would expect something to happen with it, and probably something that forces Redcloak to confront the conflict between the Plan and Gobbotopia’s well-being.

[Metastachydium]

In literary terms, the giant rift hanging over Gobbotopia is a Chekhov’s gun. The other rifts are in the middle of nowhere - the most obvious reason for showing, at the end of BRITF, that the Windy Canyon rift is an active threat is in order to establish that the rift over Gobbotopia is a threat.

So I would expect something to happen with it, and probably something that forces Redcloak to confront the conflict between the Plan and Gobbotopia’s well-being.

Could be.
That being said, I sure hope it is mostly just to remind us (and, especially, those in-universe) that Gobbotopia as it is right now exists on something of a really, really thin ice, and that gun will not actually be fired.

[hroþila]

In literary terms, the giant rift hanging over Gobbotopia is a Chekhov’s gun. The other rifts are in the middle of nowhere - the most obvious reason for showing, at the end of BRITF, that the Windy Canyon rift is an active threat is in order to establish that the rift over Gobbotopia is a threat.

So I would expect something to happen with it, and probably something that forces Redcloak to confront the conflict between the Plan and Gobbotopia’s well-being.
I disagree. Gobbotopia's rift is pretty high and unreachable except from a section of the walls that can easily be cordoned off. No one is going to be poking into it like Laurin did with Girard's rift (or like Soon's wife did at Lirian's rift, or the priest of the Dark One did with some other rift). I think Gobbotopia is relatively safe as long as the final gate holds.

I'd say the obvious reason for showing that Girard's rift was active at the end of BRITF was to dispel the theory that the Snarl wasn't real.

[Metastachydium]

I disagree. Gobbotopia's rift is pretty high and unreachable except from a section of the walls that can easily be cordoned off. No one is going to be poking into it like Laurin did with Girard's rift (or like Soon's wife did at Lirian's rift, or the priest of the Dark One did with some other rift). I think Gobbotopia is relatively safe as long as the final gate holds.

I'd say the obvious reason for showing that Girard's rift was active at the end of BRITF was to dispel the theory that the Snarl wasn't real.

I don't think the Snarl's quite as predictable as you would make it seem. Its, uh, motives (if it has any to speak of) are poorly understood in- and out of universe. We saw it leave the Order and Tarquin's soldiers alone in the desert; we saw it failing to react to Blackwing, Xykon and the Azurite slaves atop the tower at Soon's Rift. It did, however, kill bears and the like around Lirian's Rift, although that one was far from huge at that point. We also know it is (or at any rate, it can get) large enough to devour a whole world whenever the circumstances allow that, and yet, it can apparently disappear at times leaving people to inspect the Riftworld at their leisure.
Even if your theory is correct, and something definitely has to tamper with a Rift to provoke an attack, any non-sapient winged creature flying by can trigger a potentially catastrophic outburst, and we don't have solid evidence that the city's goblinoid rulers take measures to keep much anything (citizens included) away from it.

[Squire Doodad]

Perhaps the Snarl reacts to attempts to assess or interact with it magically, but not the presence of the rift in the first place? The bears might have gone missing from entering the rift (where the Snarl could see them and kill them), while people like Mijung and Laurin were attempting to scan. Furthermore, that explains why it was attacking during its sealing, because it was aware that something was trying to bind that section of its vision.

[Metastachydium]

Perhaps the Snarl reacts to attempts to assess or interact with it magically, but not the presence of the rift in the first place? The bears might have gone missing from entering the rift (where the Snarl could see them and kill them), while people like Mijung and Laurin were attempting to scan. Furthermore, that explains why it was attacking during its sealing, because it was aware that something was trying to bind that section of its vision.

Doubt that. (As per Redcloak: ”all of the accounts (…) from before the five Gates were ever built [this bit and the theory Redcloak builds around it would seem to be irrelevant and wrong, respectively, if Kraagor's death and the incident with Laurin is anything to go by] describe the Snarl reaching out and consuming those nearby” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) (not to mention that while I'm no ethologist, to me just waltzing straight into that thing doesn't really sound like something a bear would actually do). Also, we don't see Mijung use any kind of magic on the Rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and yet the Snarl attacked her. If I remember correctly, a similar fate befell the first goblin cleric to find the Rift. He wasn't doing anything remotely magical when attacked: he wasabout to throw a chicken into it, or something to that effect.)

[Anitar]

If I remember correctly, a similar fate befell the first goblin cleric to find the Rift. He wasn't doing anything remotely magical when attacked: he wasabout to throw a chicken into it, or something to that effect.)
Okay, so I just checked, and...

"It appeared to be a hole in the sky itself, through which he could see a jumbled mix of blue and purple strands. He tried several divination spells on it before he tried sending a live chicken through the hole."
Next panel: His top half is through the rift.

For that matter, the Mijung scene basically goes like...


Soon: "Please keep your magic away from the hole."
Mijung: "No."
*Mijung gets ganked by the Snarl*

So you're technically right inasfar as we haven't seen those two attempt to magick the Rifts in any way, but it's implied in both cases. If anything, it makes the "Snarl proactively lashes out if and only if you get magicky in its general direction" theory seem more likely.

[Metastachydium]

Okay, so I just checked, and...
"It appeared to be a hole in the sky itself, through which he could see a jumbled mix of blue and purple strands. He tried several divination spells on it before he tried sending a live chicken through the hole."
Next panel: His top half is through the rift.

I KNEW that there were chicken involved! (And, by the way, thanks for the clarification.)


For that matter, the Mijung scene basically goes like...

Soon: "Please keep your magic away from the hole."
Mijung: "No."
*Mijung gets ganked by the Snarl*


That's one possible interpretation of the scene. However, Soon's whole ”let's enjoy the scenery before duty calls &c.&c.” sounds more like ”please keep that magic hole and your academic curiosity from ruining our picnic here” to me.


So you're technically right inasfar as we haven't seen those two attempt to magick the Rifts in any way, but it's implied in both cases. If anything, it makes the "Snarl proactively lashes out if and only if you get magicky in its general direction" theory seem more likely.

And you people are technically right that ”magic baits the Snarl” is not an unreasonable assumption, but between the ambiguity of the Mijung-scene, the whole thing with the bears and Redcloak's comment about those multiple accounts, questioning the validity of this theory seems to be a reasonable position as well.

[Squire Doodad]

And you people are technically right that ”magic baits the Snarl” is not an unreasonable assumption, but between the ambiguity of the Mijung-scene, the whole thing with the bears and Redcloak's comment about those multiple accounts, questioning the validity of this theory seems to be a reasonable position as well.

That's true, we can't say for certain that it's the correct theory. It could be triggered by things entering range relative to the planet inside it's surface (hence why Laurin triggered it but Blackwing didn't), or it could just be anything with X distance of the portal lets the Snarl roll for reality-undoing tentacles. Magic seems to clearly be involved, though there could easily be another aspect.

Incidentally I'd say that a bear could, in fact, go straight into the portal out of curiosity (maybe thinking it's a weird cave or something), but that's just me.

[danielxcutter]

I wouldn’t be surprised if using magic around it paints a target on your back, but it can still sense beings close to the Rifts even without that anyways.