OOTS #1207 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Quebbster]

I don't see it...

Edit: Found it.

[knag]

The real theological question is do the gods have nictitating membranes? :smalltongue:

This is getting away from Durkon real fast.

[snowblizz]

And that good folks is how "conceited" looks like.

This message brought to you by the Committee to Provide Dictionary Illustration.

[link3710]

Aaand we're losing him. Durkon needs to mention the fact that they've destroyed the world literally millions of times, and fast.

[Shale]

Ideally now is when Durkon would start talking concessions, but I'm getting the sneaking suspicion he hasn't thought that far ahead....

[Yirggzmb]

Aaand we're losing him. Durkon needs to mention the fact that they've destroyed the world literally millions of times, and fast.

And also that his god is likely to not survive if the plug gets pulled now.

[Coventry]

Uh-oh. Redcloak's ego has already begun to explode.

How large will that be (and how much damage will it do)?!?

And that's after some 30 years of being subservient to Xykon. Yeesh!

[TheNecrocomicon]

Aaaaaand here we see the dramatically inevitable trainwreck beginning to take shape.

This right here is why Redcloak more than likely will never come around or "redeem" himself ... pride that his Plan(TM) is the only path forward, reasonable alternatives be damned.

Durkon had better mention more factors like the graveyard of countless worlds fast or he's going to bungle this completely.

[dancrilis]

I liked that - happy Redcloak is the best Redcloak, nice to see him have some fun.

[Kapeji]

Thinking back to Durkon's legendary ability with words (ThorPrayer/Colonic Tumor), this was a doomed effort long ago.

[Murk]

I liked that - happy Redcloak is the best Redcloak, nice to see him have some fun.

Yes, last comic had me feeling sorry for him, but this is much better. His own god might not care very much about him, but at least the others do!

[deltamire]

I was so delighted by Durkon's accent and wordchoice/accent effects that I almost didn't notice Redcloak's ego expanding to take up most of the final panel. Great comic. Hopefully Durkon will buck up and remind Redcloak about the repercussions of this world going pear-shaped, stat.

[sombrastewart]

I like the exchange very much.

Redcloak is letting classic villainy tropes get in his way a little bit. Can't wait to see how it plays out.

[Windscion]

Saying TDO is unlikely to survive is certain to be seen as self-serving propaganda. The bit about millions of worlds is less clear, but will not help. So really I think Durkon has been pursuing the winning argument so far.

[hroþila]

Those last two panels felt rather odd to me coming from Redcloak. Although I guess that if anything's going to go to your head...

(He might just be messing with Durkon, though)

[Reboot]

Redcloak, here's the Evil Overlord List. I suggest you read it.

[Fyraltari]

No wait Durkon, don’t correct him, believing that is the only way he’ll agree to anything!

[El Dorado]

I believe we’ve reached the sudden but inevitable betrayal portion of the conversation.

[hamishspence]

Looks like Redcloak's coming to worrying conclusions.

[Wowlock]

Redcloak, don't be fool.
The moment you even DARE to release Snarl, Gods will destroy the world. So there is no chance your plan is gonna succeed.
Durkon here just giving you a chance to literally survive.

[Fyraltari]

Guys, this isn’t Redclaok letting his ego get the better of him, this is him feeling validated in his sink-cost fallacy.

[Metastachydium]

No wait Durkon, don’t correct him, believing that is the only way he’ll agree to anything!

I tend to agree that Durkon does not seem to realize how good a starting point for further negotiations this could be. Nevertheless, I do not see much to correct in Redcloak's take on the subject. The thing is, he's right. It would seem that previous Bearers spent most of their time getting slaughtered or sitting on their thumbs, hiding. Redcloak personally destroyed a gate (by accident); another was destroyed because he and Xykon were camping on it. Two others went up in flames because his (and X.'s) enemies wanted to prevent Team Evil from capturing them. He's sitting on the doorstep of the last one.
He's personally responsible for the events that led to the current Godsmoot, and were it not for his attempt to pursue the Plan the way he did, no god would have felt the need to send emissaries to him. Redcloak's way of thinking might very well exhibit fallacious tendencies, but the cost you keep talking about didn't ever sink.

[hroþila]

Guys, this isn’t Redclaok letting his ego get the better of him, this is him feeling validated in his sink-cost fallacy.
Without the last panel I'd agree with you, but IMO the last one shifts the focus to Redcloak's ego, not his underlying guilt and self-doubt. This is of course highly subjective, but it's how it came across to me and hence why it feels a bit odd.

[Jacky720]

Redcloak, don't be fool.
The moment you even DARE to release Snarl, Gods will destroy the world. So there is no chance your plan is gonna succeed.
Durkon here just giving you a chance to literally survive.

The issue being that Durkon hasn't mentioned that part yet. It'll probably come up next comic.

Anyway, TDO wants to negotiate with the gods from a position of strength, right? Congratulations! Durkon here says you already have one (perhaps two), so please stop melting emissaries.

[Peelee]

I believe we’ve reached the sudden but inevitable betrayal portion of the conversation.

I think we'll wash over that.

[Fyraltari]

I tend to agree that Durkon does not seem to realize how good a starting point for further negotiations this could be. Nevertheless, I do not see much to correct in Redcloak's take on the subject. The thing is, he's right. It would seem that previous Bearers spent most of their time getting slaughtered or sitting on their thumbs, hiding. Redcloak personally destroyed a gate (by accident); another was destroyed because he and Xykon were camping on it. Two others went up in flames because his (and X.'s) enemies wanted to prevent Team Evil from capturing them. He's sitting on the doorstep of the last one.
He's personally responsible for the events that led to the current Godsmoot, and were it not for his attempt to pursue the Plan the way he did, no god would have felt the need to send emissaries to him. Redcloak's way of thinking might very well exhibit fallacious tendencies, but the cost you keep talking about didn't ever sink.
As Thor explained this situation was inevitable as the Gates wouldn’t have contained the Snarl anyway. Redcloak’s actions only fasted what would have happened regardless. So the only way they mattered is that they made the Dark One’s survival should the world blow up less likely. Something Redcloak won’t be willing to hear.

As for the cost, I assure you that Redcloak already sunk way more than he can afford. If you don’t know what I mean I suggest you buy and read Start if Darkness. It’s a great book.

Without the last panel I'd agree with you, but IMO the last one shifts the focus to Redcloak's ego, not his underlying guilt and self-doubt. This is of course highly subjective, but it's how it came across to me and hence why it feels a bit odd.
Well obviously his ego is soaring like there’s no tomorrow at the moment, but that’s not out of nowhere, that’s a logical consequence of having his thirty year-long doubts and guilt negated and being assured that he was right all along.

[RedScholarGypsy]

The point of negotiating is not to change the other person's mind, but to show them why they should change it themselves. Redcloak will never change his mind that the Plan is necessary; instead, Durkon should show him that, for its purpose, it's already succeeded, and now Redcloak just needs to get the concessions he and his god wanted. Cash out now and become the fourth Pantheon. Hell, offer Xykon the god of death position to get him on board (whether TDO actually uplifts him or screws him for all the goblins he's killed is another matter).

[Doug Lampert]

Saying TDO is unlikely to survive is certain to be seen as self-serving propaganda. The bit about millions of worlds is less clear, but will not help. So really I think Durkon has been pursuing the winning argument so far.

Yeah, I completely fail to see why Redcloak would believe that the Dark One can't survive the end of the world.

Gods end the world and build a new one because that's SAFE, except it will kill this one god.


Guys, this isn’t Redclaok letting his ego get the better of him, this is him feeling validated in his sink-cost fallacy.

I tend to agree, but the sunk cost fallacy has always had a lot of ego in it. "I can't have been wrong" is usually a core part of a sunk cost fallacy.

[Rawhide]

I think we'll wash over that.

Do you think it's all going to blow over like a light breeze?

[Synesthesy]

Durkon is now telling Redcloak two things:

1) the plan is working, the goal of getting better conditions for gobliners can be reached.
2) there is a way of fullfilling the plan without Xykon

And this is really important

[Roger_Druid]

Hi all!

Well, I think it's high time for a deus ex machina intervention!

Roger

[Metastachydium]

As Thor explained this situation was inevitable as the Gates wouldn’t have contained the Snarl anyway. Redcloak’s actions only fasted what would have happened regardless. So the only way they mattered is that they made the Dark One’s survival should the world blow up less likely. Something Redcloak won’t be willing to hear.

As for the cost, I assure you that Redcloak already sunk way more than he can afford. If you don’t know what I mean I suggest you buy and read Start if Darkness. It’s a great book.


I've read Start of Darkness (it is indeed a great book), and I know what said cost was, thank you. That being said, I am still more than inclined to disagree with your assessment of the situation. You see, the gates were as good a stop-gap measure as it gets, and were the Dark One not to cook up a ritual that can weaponize them, sealing new rifts the same way or resealing ones that start leaking through, again, gates would have worked just fine for quite a while. At any rate, no god ever tried to negotiate with his high priests as long as the gates were around.

[Garwain]

I guess Durkon didn't roll high enough on diplomacy then. But were we actually thinking plans would work from the first try? We all know it has to get worse before it gets better. So, in a way, glad that we're progressing.

[The Pilgrim]

You do not strike fear in the hearts of the Gods, Reddie. That's the Snarl. You are just the idiot who is setting it loose.

[Metastachydium]

You do not strike fear in the hearts of the Gods, Reddie. That's the Snarl. You are just the idiot who is setting it loose.

Sentences no. 1 and 2: fair enough.
Sentence no. 3: much less so. To quote the Bearer himself: „I would point out thatevery time some lunatic destroys a Gate rather than let it fall into our hands, th[e] chance [of doomsday] increases significantly. It's you good guys who keep setting the Armageddon Clock ahead to Daylight Saving Time, not us.” [v. strip no. 544] Also, the Giant made it clear that a weaponized Gate is basically the same thing as a single-warhead nuclear arsenal. Once it's fired, it's worth nothing, so it is less than likely that the Dark One would actually set the big tangly abomination loose even if he could.

[Lord Torath]

I love Durkon's last words in this strip: "Let's circle back ta tha question aboot blinkin', aye?"

or

"Let's circle back ta tha question aboot blinkin' eye?"

Well played, Giant!

[LadyEowyn]

When you regard the gods as your enemy, “the gods are prepared to destroy the world rather than let you win” is a pretty heady statement.

Durkon’s not going to get anywhere if he can’t offer some concessions. The winning strategy here is “you can get what you want by saving the world rather than threatening it”. Durkon seems to be expecting Redcloak and TDO to help gratis, which isn’t realistic.

[Grey Watcher]

Saying TDO is unlikely to survive is certain to be seen as self-serving propaganda. The bit about millions of worlds is less clear, but will not help. So really I think Durkon has been pursuing the winning argument so far.

While I think you're right in that Redcloak is unlikely to believe the bit about TDO probably not surviving until the next creation, Durkon definitely needs to get "why the Dark One needs the other gods" into this conversation. So far, all he's done is make Redcloak even more confident that he and the Dark One are outmaneuvering everyone and being oh so clever. He's gone on at length why the gods need the Dark One but not why the Dark One needs the gods.

I don't know how to manage it, but Durkon definitely needs to somehow impress upon Redcloak how risky the Plan is for the Dark One specifically so that cooperating with the gods in sealing the Snarl seems like the better course of action.

[Metastachydium]

Durkon’s not going to get anywhere if he can’t offer some concessions. The winning strategy here is “you can get what you want by saving the world rather than threatening it”. Durkon seems to be expecting Redcloak and TDO to help gratis, which isn’t realistic.

That's about right. And the funny thing? The deal he could offer him could be presented as an incredibly good one. A captured Gate is a one-shot H-bomb; the long-time cooperation (spot-welding) Durkon could propose would, in turn, give the Dark One permanent leverage as long as the gods want to keep the world around.

(A wild thought: the gods could offer to cede control of the last Gate to the Church of the Dark One to sweeten the deal. Once the Ritual is finished, Xykon (and to an extent, Redcloak's traumatising background) becomes irrelevant and the entire church can turn on the lich if they so choose. The only task left on the table would be keeping Xykon from destroying the Gate out of spite. As for the Dark One, he would acquire a means to fall back on in case the gods try and play dirty, and could, therefore, strike a deal with them knowing he has everything to gain and literally nothing to lose.)

[Peelee]

Do you think it's all going to blow over like a light breeze?

What, like a leaf on the wind?

[Jacky720]

I don't know how to manage it, but Durkon definitely needs to somehow impress upon Redcloak how risky the Plan is for the Dark One specifically so that cooperating with the gods in sealing the Snarl seems like the better course of action.

Could it be done at all?

The obvious move is to say "If the gods do destroy the world, that's Game Over", but as said before Redcloak might reject that.

What Redcloak wants is fairness for goblinoids. What TDO wants is less clear- probably either the same or personal superiority over the other gods. In either case, it requires talking with the other gods first, hopefully from a position of strength. TDO stopped talking because he wanted to wait until the Plan was armed and ready. He will start talking when it is, and based on what Durkon's saying, that's now (regardless of whether he takes the threatening or benevolent option).

The issue then becomes which option TDO does try to go with, or can the gods convince him to switch- which I have absolutely no idea about since we've seen so little of him in-comic.

Or, of course, Redcloak could completely reverse his stance and assume everything Durkon said is a lie once the latter pulls the "The Dark One will die" card.

[bunsen_h]

The real theological question is do the gods have nictitating membranes? :smalltongue:

The snake-ish ones, probably.


Well obviously his ego is soaring like there’s no tomorrow at the moment, but that’s not out of nowhere, that’s a logical consequence of having his thirty year-long doubts and guilt negated and being assured that he was right all along.

I see it as a bit of overreaction to his crushed ego from the last strip, when his own deity, of whom he's the High Priest, hadn't thought he was worth contacting directly for all that time. "I really am doing stuff that's important!"

Huh. Just had another thought regarding possible outcomes if Xykon stops by. He sees Redcloak chatting with some dwarf guy, and insists that dwarf guy join Team Evil.

[Peelee]

You do not strike fear in the hearts of the Gods, Reddie. That's the Snarl. You are just the idiot who is setting it loose.

I don't know about you, but if I see an idiot wildly firing a machine gun in all directions, I'm afraid of that person. "The idiot setting it loose" is still something to fear.

[mjasghar]

So perhaps people will start to acknowledge my points about Redcloak and TDO
You can’t trust evil
Even Tiamat was helping mess with the one group that could help stop the Snarl and She knows the risks

[dancrilis]

You can’t trust evil

You can trust it as much as any other alignment, but just going 'you can't trust' would probably be fair.

[Peelee]

Ideally now is when Durkon would start talking concessions

Durkon’s not going to get anywhere if he can’t offer some concessions.

What concessions could Durkon offer?

[Windscion]

Even Tiamat was helping mess with the one group that could help stop the Snarl and She knows the risks
How is Tiamat involved? As far as I can tell, she has been against TE. The oracle of Sunken Valley, a Tiamat devotee, talked to the Order, but not Xykon. (strip # anyone?)
If you mean 628, that was giving an answer to an ABD. Of course she and her oracle would cooperate. And at that point, there was no order, just a bunch of split-off former members.

[dancrilis]

What concessions could Durkon offer?

He could offer the High Priest of the Dark One one natural (dwarf) lifespan of loyal service from a high level cleric.

Which might not sound like much on first glance but in fact is likely worth a fair amount and could be used to great affect to improve the lives of goblinoids the world over in various ways.

Edit:

How is Tiamat involved? As far as I can tell, she has been against TE. The oracle of Sunken Valley, a Tiamat devotee, talked to the Order, but not Xykon. (strip # anyone?)

737 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), although that might have been more the Oracle then Tiamat, he finds Xykon frickin' scary (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html).

[Peelee]

How is Tiamat involved? As far as I can tell, she has been against TE. The oracle of Sunken Valley, a Tiamat devotee, talked to the Order, but not Xykon. (strip # anyone?)
The Oracle avoiding Xykon is different than Tiamat being opposed to Xykon.

He could offer the High Priest of the Dark One one natural (dwarf) lifespan of loyal service from a high level cleric.

Which might not sound like much on first glance but in fact is likely worth a fair amount and could be used to great affect to improve the lives of goblinoids the world over in various ways.
He;s already got one, and I have to note his main use for that one is to do other things; Gobbotopia was a side effect.

[mjasghar]

She actively helped the ifcc in their plot

[Peelee]

She actively helped the ifcc in their plot

I don't recall that. In fact, I remember her being rather upset at the IFCC's fallout.

[Windscion]

What concessions could Durkon offer?

It isn't Durkon's job to offer concessions. It's his job to convince TDO (thru his high priest) to talk to the other gods. It is the job of those gods to offer concessions. And, given that it isn't clear that there is a prepared group of gods ready to argue for those concessions, I wouldn't be surprised if TDO tell RC to carry on with the plan.

My mind keeps coming back to the World in the Rifts, of which the gods appear unaware (1150).

[Metastachydium]

What concessions could Durkon offer?

Personally? He could offer to facilitate carrying out the Ritual and getting Xykon off the goblins' back once that's done (for why this could be a somewhat less bad idea than it sounds, please refer to wild thought above).

[Windscion]

She actively helped the ifcc in their plot
Again, at that point there was no Order of the Stick. Just a scattering of adventurers.

[Peelee]

Personally? He could offer to facilitate carrying out the Ritual and getting Xykon off the goblins' back once that's done (for why this could be a somewhat less bad idea than it sounds, please refer to wild thought above).

The ritual moves the rift. Durkon (and Thor) wants the rift sealed, not moved.

[LadyEowyn]

What concessions could Durkon offer?
That’s kind of the hole in Thor’s plan. He didn’t give Durkon authority to offer any.

The kinds of concessions Redcloak wants are a change in goblinoids’ metaphysical status so the deck usn’t stacked against them. Decent land for non-Gobbotopian goblinoids. Gods instructing their worshippers to treat goblinoids as people rather than XP fodder?

I’m hoping Redcloak will get to specifics over the course of this conversation.

Durkon himself could offer that the OOTS will help get rid of Xykon, except that he doesn’t know that Redcloak hates Xykon.

[Metastachydium]

The ritual moves the rift. Durkon (and Thor) wants the rift sealed, not moved.

Of course. But „the gods could offer to cede control of the last Gate to the Church of the Dark One to sweeten the deal. Once the Ritual is finished, Xykon (and to an extent, Redcloak's traumatising background) becomes irrelevant and the entire church can turn on the lich if they so choose. The only task left on the table would be keeping Xykon from destroying the Gate out of spite. As for the Dark One, he would acquire a means to fall back on in case the gods try and play dirty, and could, therefore, strike a deal with them knowing he has everything to gain and literally nothing to lose.”
Also, the Gate does not have to be left open till' times end. It only has to be kept intact as long as the Dark One has reasons to doubt that the other gods negotiate in good faith.

[Cazero]

She actively helped the ifcc in their plotHahahaha, no.
She was reluctantly convinced to stop screaming at them by the perspective of suspiciously worded benefits down the line. That's not "helping with the IFCC plot", that's "being conned by the IFCC".

[Mad Humanist]

Of course. But „the gods could offer to cede control of the last Gate to the Church of the Dark One to sweeten the deal.

Surely that concession would be unacceptable to either side. The needed concession is that "Goblinoids" become a PC race in this and future worlds. Of course Durkon can't offer that, but he can explain about how the gods talk to each other.

[Peelee]

Of course. But „the gods could offer to cede control of the last Gate to the Church of the Dark One to sweeten the deal. Once the Ritual is finished, Xykon (and to an extent, Redcloak's traumatising background) becomes irrelevant and the entire church can turn on the lich if they so choose.

So your plan is to, as a gesture of good faith, let them hand a loaded gun to the Dark One for him to put against their heads?

That's really putting the "faith" in good faith, I gotta say.

[Metastachydium]

Surely that concession would be unacceptable to either side. The needed concession is that "Goblinoids" become a PC race in this and future worlds. Of course Durkon can't offer that, but he can explain about how the gods talk to each other.

You do realise that you've just implied that the Dark One finds his own Plan unacceptable, don't you?
Also, the real deal would be the other gods basically telling their followers that the goblinoids are not fair game anymore in exchange for the Dark One agreeing to help seal the (present and future) rifts. Letting Redcloak carry out the Ritual would just give the Dark One a concrete guarantee that he can pull the plug if the others don't play nice, and thus while it would not solve anyone's problems, it could lay the groundworks for an actual solution.
Also, not interfering with the Plan and help against Xykon are pretty much all that Durkon can personally offer. The rest must be decided by god-to-god negotiations.

To Peelee:

This would leave both sides with loaded guns (the Gate and Armageddon Special) which they would really rather not use (and in fact, since the Gate is a one-shot loaded gun, the other gods would still be better off than Big Purple).

[The MunchKING]

Of course. But „the gods could offer to cede control of the last Gate to the Church of the Dark One to sweeten the deal. Once the Ritual is finished, Xykon (and to an extent, Redcloak's traumatising background) becomes irrelevant and the entire church can turn on the lich if they so choose.

Oh yeah, because hostage situations work so well when you open with "let me help you get the guns and ammo you need to hold these people hostage". :smallsigh:

EDIT:


To Peelee:

This would leave both sides with loaded guns (the Gate and Armageddon Special) which they would really rather not use (and in fact, since the Gate is a one-shot loaded gun, the other gods would still be better off than Big Purple).

Who says the Dark One DOESN'T want to use it? every indicator we've seen so far indicates he wants to take down the other Gods and is building an army to do it if the Snarl thing doesn't work. He tried diplomacy and it got him killed. He tried it in the God-realm and found out everyone was lying to him, and a bunch of them were STILL trying to kill him. What little we've seen indicates he think Diplomacy is off the table. Massacres and Conquest were the only things that EVER worked for him, so he probably is planning on going with that now.

[Mad Humanist]

You do realise that you've just implied that the Dark One finds his own Plan unacceptable, don't you?

The Plan is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money". That would not be acceptable to either side.




Also, the real deal would be the other gods basically telling their followers that the goblinoids are not fair game anymore in exchange for the Dark One agreeing to help seal the (present and future) rifts.

This is exactly what I said. Make the Goblinoids PC races.

[understatement]

Reminds me of this comic's last panels (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html): how characters are conversing normally yet one is rapidly about to find himself in a really deep hole soon.

Oh geez, Durkon, this is why you let Elan go up to RC instead and present the masterplan for Banjo to enter the pantheons.

[Metastachydium]

Oh yeah, because hostage situations work so well when you open with "let me help you get the guns and ammo you need to hold these people hostage". :smallsigh:

The Dark One does not know what we do, and he has no reason to believe what the previously hostile Thor has to tell him. He needs some guarantee that he won't be deceived. Also, like I said, the other side already has a loaded gun pointed straight at his head, and everyone 'round here keeps suggesting that Durkon should just tell Redcloak that the gods are ready to end it all, which would likely kill his god, but some of them are nice enough to show mercy if he's ready to make himself useful. Sounds like a plan, really.


The Plan is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money". That would not be acceptable to either side.
etc.

{scrubbed} I also wrote that letting Redcloak carry out the Ritual would just give the Dark One a concrete guarantee that he can pull the plug if the others don't play nice, and thus while it would not solve anyone's problems, it could lay the groundworks for an actual solution, though. {scrubbed}

[Mad Humanist]

Also, like I said, the other side already has a loaded gun pointed straight at his head, and everyone 'round here keeps suggesting that Durkon should just tell Redcloak that the gods are ready to end it all, which would likely kill his god, but some of them are nice enough to show mercy if he's ready to make himself useful. Sounds like a plan, really.

This is not qhat is going on. There is no intention to kill the Dark One or show him mercy. His dying would be purely collateral damage. You do have a point that it might come across as a threat to kill the Dark One, but that's only if Durkon screws up his explanation.

[The MunchKING]

The Dark One does not know what we do, and he has no reason to believe what the previously hostile Thor has to tell him. He needs some guarantee that he won't be deceived.

The thing is the Plan doesn't really prevent him from being deceived. In the best case it just gives him a doomsday weapon if he IS deceived. Much more likely if your paranoid enough to not be willing to negotiate without a gun to the other guy's head, is the idea that they tampered with your gun. Which means if he can't trust Durkon to negotiate on behalf of Thor in good Faith, he certainly can't trust him with his doomsday plan.


Also, like I said, the other side already has a loaded gun pointed straight at his head, and everyone 'round here keeps suggesting that Durkon should just tell Redcloak that the gods are ready to end it all, which would likely kill his god, but some of them are nice enough to show mercy if he's ready to make himself useful. Sounds like a plan, really.

This part is true, but I'm not sure where "give the Dark One the power to dump the Snarl in the Outer Planes" helps with the whole idea of getting him to NOT do that.

[dancrilis]

The Plan is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money". That would not be acceptable to either side.


Why?
If you accept that deal (and don't try to alter it to something else) surely that would be acceptable to the bank.

[Metastachydium]

The thing is the Plan doesn't really prevent him from being deceived. In the best case it just gives him a doomsday weapon if he IS deceived.
Exactly.


Much more likely if your paranoid enough to not be willing to negotiate without a gun to the other guy's head, is the idea that they tampered with your gun. Which means if he can't trust Durkon to negotiate on behalf of Thor in good Faith, he certainly can't trust him with his doomsday plan.



This part is true, but I'm not sure where "give the Dark One the power to dump the Snarl in the Outer Planes" helps with the whole idea of getting him to NOT do that.

Redcloak knows that they are aware of what the Ritual does (because Durkon told him) and his god knows because Redcloak knows. If he does not order the goblin to abandon the Plan in the next few minutes, I'll be inclined to conclude that he is not particularly afraid of the possibility that the gods can tamper with his gun. If the Ritual is completed as planned, I don't quite see how the other gods could change its result.

[Gift Jeraff]

After learning what we learned about how gods work, I think negotiating with the Dark One is borderline impossible. He was deified through war, rage, racial enmities, and vengeance. He probably CAN'T agree to back down on the Plan in much the same way Dvalin couldn't just ignore the council, Loki is forced to lie even to his own detriment, etc.

[The MunchKING]

Why?
If you accept that deal (and don't try to alter it to something else) surely that would be acceptable to the bank.

It doesn't get the guy with the gun out of there so he doesn't shoot you.


If the Ritual is completed as planned, I don't quite see how the other gods could change its result.

"Oh we stuck a shut-off code in there while you weren't looking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html) Too bad you weren't willing to negotiate in good faith, enjoy slowly starving to death".

[Metastachydium]

Who says the Dark One DOESN'T want to use it? every indicator we've seen so far indicates he wants to take down the other Gods and is building an army to do it if the Snarl thing doesn't work. He tried diplomacy and it got him killed. He tried it in the God-realm and found out everyone was lying to him, and a bunch of them were STILL trying to kill him. What little we've seen indicates he think Diplomacy is off the table. Massacres and Conquest were the only things that EVER worked for him, so he probably is planning on going with that now.

The Giant made it very clear that actually using it doesn't make any sense whatsoever strategically and the Dark One's an accomplished general. Also, he knows exactly how dangerous the thing is, and we do not have any indication that he's suicidal. Further, he does not seem to have the intention of destroying all the non-purple gods. Many doubt that he has the good of his people at heart, but I see no reason to question that he wants a say in how things are done, rather than oblivion.


It doesn't get the guy with the gun out of there so he doesn't shoot you.



"Oh we stuck a shut-off code in there while you weren't looking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html) Too bad you weren't willing to negotiate in good faith, enjoy slowly starving to death".

I find that example irrelevant. Malack actually helped him research that spell. The Ritual is Big Purple's own creation.

[DeicideChannel]

I wonder if maybe Durkon CAN'T talk about the world graveyard. If it got out that the world is one of millions that the gods have destroyed, what would that do to Belief? Nobody worships Hel (which the dwarves think is ) because she's a Wicked Witch of Death. If you find out that the gods have destroyed trillions to save thir own hides, do you keep going to church on Sunday? Do you renounce the Gods entirely?

I think The Dark One, who is innocent of this, would have a major incentive to get this knowledge out there.

[Metastachydium]

I wonder if maybe Durkon CAN'T talk about the world graveyard. If it got out that the world is one of millions that the gods have destroyed, what would that do to Belief? Nobody worships Hel (which the dwarves think is ) because she's a Wicked Witch of Death. If you find out that the gods have destroyed trillions to save thir own hides, do you keep going to church on Sunday? Do you renounce the Gods entirely?

I think The Dark One, who is innocent of this, would have a major incentive to get this knowledge out there.

Why would Redcloak believe something he cannot verify?

[dancrilis]

It doesn't get the guy with the gun out of there so he doesn't shoot you.

That is adding a bit that isn't in the initial scenario - no where in the initial scenario does the guy who wants money also want to kill people.

[DeicideChannel]

Why would Redcloak believe something he cannot verify?
Sorry, what do you mean?

[The MunchKING]

I find that example irrelevant. Malack actually helped him research that spell. The Ritual is Big Purple's own creation.

Right, but you were saying Durkon should help with the Ritual. So if Durkon helps, how do you know he won't mess with the bits he helped with?


That is adding a bit that isn't in the initial scenario - no where in the initial scenario does the guy who wants money also want to kill people.

I thought it was implied you as the bank THOUGHT he would at least be willing to shoot you, that's why he was pointing a gun at you.

[Metastachydium]

Sorry, what do you mean?

The Dark One and Redcloak cannot verify independently that the graveyard exists. As long as it may not even be true as far they are concerned, the information is of no use to them.
(Also, this might sound weird coming from my mouth, but the gods would probably take issue with Durkon trying to deprive them of Worship.)

[137beth]

Oh dear, Redcloak is going to take the wrong message out of this whole thing.

They aren't afraid of RC's plan. They are afraid of the Snarl.

[understatement]

Oh dear, Redcloak is going to take the wrong message out of this whole thing.

They aren't afraid of RC's plan. They are afraid of the Snarl.

Technically, that's pretty much what Redcloak's plan entails.

[Metastachydium]

Right, but you were saying Durkon should help with the Ritual. So if Durkon helps, how do you know he won't mess with the bits he helped with?


The Ritual needs a grand total of one divine caster to perform. What Durkon can help with is keeping Redcloak and Xykon alive, finding the Gate and dealing with the fallout called Angry Xykon.

[Peelee]

The Ritual needs a grand total of one divine caster to perform. What Durkon can help with is keeping Redcloak and Xykon alive, finding the Gate and dealing with the fallout called Angry Xykon.

Redcloak and Xykon are already alive and seem to have a pretty good handle on staying that way. Durkon cannot offer terribly much help in finding the Gate. And I don't think Redcloak is terribly concerned with Angry Xykon so long as the Plan succeeds; sure, it'd be nice, but that'd be a bonus as best.

[Edric O]

Well, that fell apart fast. Oh, Durkon...

[dancrilis]

I thought it was implied you as the bank THOUGHT he would at least be willing to shoot you, that's why he was pointing a gun at you.

That was never mentioned in the initial scenario: If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money".

The guy who wants to rob a bank might not even be inside a bank - or have threatened anyone, the bank might just send out memos to everyone they know who has acquired a gun to advise them on bank policy just in case there is any confusion.
If the guy accepts bank policy the bank is going to accept it also - the deal is only likely unacceptable from one side.

[The MunchKING]

Alright I was clearly inferring things about the scenario you weren't.

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak and Xykon are already alive and seem to have a pretty good handle on staying that way. Durkon cannot offer terribly much help in finding the Gate. And I don't think Redcloak is terribly concerned with Angry Xykon so long as the Plan succeeds; sure, it'd be nice, but that'd be a bonus as best.

Well, the Order's there to prevent Xykon from staying alive and to keep Team Evil from finding the Gate, both of which would stop the Plan dead on its track.
Also, Redcloak's continued existence is important if negotiations are to continue after the Ritual is performed (and, you see, that is in the Dark One's interest, since the Snarl can eradicate his own followers through the unsealed rifts just as easily as it can deal with the specimens of any given species: the Gates are useful to him, whereas the unsealed rifts are much less so, to put it mildly).

[Fyraltari]

I've read Start of Darkness (it is indeed a great book), and I know what said cost was, thank you. That being said, I am still more than inclined to disagree with your assessment of the situation. You see, the gates were as good a stop-gap measure as it gets, and were the Dark One not to cook up a ritual that can weaponize them, sealing new rifts the same way or resealing ones that start leaking through, again, gates would have worked just fine for quite a while. At any rate, no god ever tried to negotiate with his high priests as long as the gates were around.
Thor was pretty explicit that the Gates can’t work in the long run. Nothing works in the long run except getting TDO’s help, the Rift above Azure City grew to several hundred times its size in the span of a few months, so I don’t think resealing a broken gate with the same magic would amount much.
But really the issue here is that Durkon’s présence here and now to negotiate is not a response to Redcloak’s actions. He only came to negotiate because he had a chat with Thor and that was only possible because Malack killed him and Malack killed him because he was roped by Tarquin into participating to what boiled down to a scheme by Tarquin to control his sons’ lives. If you stretch it, it’s tangentially related to Redclaak’s efforts and had absolutely zilch to do with Redclaok’s involvement with Xykon. Hence why Redcloak’s pride here is misplaced.

You can trust it as much as any other alignment, but just going 'you can't trust' would probably be fair.
You okay there, dancrilis?



This would leave both sides with loaded guns (the Gate and Armageddon Special) which they would really rather not use (and in fact, since the Gate is a one-shot loaded gun, the other gods would still be better off than Big Purple).
But the Armageddon Special is TDO’s fall-back plan. Threatening someone with what they consider an acceptable outcome generally does not work.
We know that it’s not as viable as he thinks but even Thor isn’t sure wether TDO can make it or not so even if TDO believed Thor (an unlikely prospect) he might be willing to take the shot anyway. Especially since every passing year gives him better odds of surviving the world’s destruction.

[Xlsfd]

Redcloak and Xykon are already alive and seem to have a pretty good handle on staying that way. Durkon cannot offer terribly much help in finding the Gate. And I don't think Redcloak is terribly concerned with Angry Xykon so long as the Plan succeeds; sure, it'd be nice, but that'd be a bonus as best.

Xykon is a lot of things, but "alive" isn't one of them. According to "Start of Darkness", he died 27 years before Strip 1 in Lirian's Glade.

[dancrilis]

You okay there, dancrilis?


I am grand just a mild believer in:


Trust no one, not even yourself - for in the end even you will falter.

[Metastachydium]

Thor was pretty explicit that the Gates can’t work in the long run. Nothing works in the long run except getting TDO’s help, the Rift above Azure City grew to several hundred times its size in the span of a few months, so I don’t think resealing a broken gate with the same magic would amount much.
But really the issue here is that Durkon’s présence here and now to negotiate is not a response to Redcloak’s actions. He only came to negotiate because he had a chat with Thor and that was only possible because Malack killed him and Malack killed him because he was roped by Tarquin into participating to what boiled down to a scheme by Tarquin to control his sons’ lives. If you stretch it, it’s tangentially related to Redclaak’s efforts and had absolutely zilch to do with Redclaok’s involvement with Xykon. Hence why Redcloak’s pride here is misplaced.

The Order did not want to deny the Vector Legion or the Linear Guild Girard's Gate. They were there in the hope that they can reach and secure it before Team Evil does. Also, without an arcane caster the ritual is useless. Redcloak's resident arcane caster was Xykon the last time I checked.



But the Armageddon Special is TDO’s fall-back plan. Threatening someone with what they consider an acceptable outcome generally does not work.
We know that it’s not as viable as he thinks but even Thor isn’t sure wether TDO can make it or not so even if TDO believed Thor (an unlikely prospect) he might be willing to take the shot anyway. Especially since every passing year gives him better odds of surviving the world’s destruction.

That's about right. But it's a really bad backup plan, and Durkon can explain that to Redcloak. If Plan A is getting what he wants from the gods for something he would have to deal with anyway (unsealed rifts are unsealed rifts), and Plan B is the Plan, now, that is a much better setup than ”Plan A is the Plan, Plan B is Armageddon Special (which likely wouldn't work and not just because he would die: the gods have no reason to give him a vote when the new world is put together)”.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thinking back to Durkon's legendary ability with words (ThorPrayer/Colonic Tumor), this was a doomed effort long ago. yeah, that's a heck of a reach back.

Redcloak will never change his mind that the Plan is necessary; instead, Durkon should show him that, for its purpose, it's already succeeded Which is why Haley needed to be in on the negotiations. She gets that, with her insanely high Diplomacy skill point pile.

You do not strike fear in the hearts of the Gods, Reddie. That's the Snarl. You are just the idiot who is setting it loose. And Durkon's point ought to be
"the gods will end the world if we dont change - they have done it thousands, nay, millions of time before. We are being given one l ast chance, and maybe TDO doesn't make it to the next world, which means goblin kind get hosed yet again." Not sure if Durkon groks all of that, though.

When you regard the gods as your enemy, “the gods are prepared to destroy the world rather than let you win” is a pretty heady statement. I think that means one has _no_ leverage.

What, like a leaf on the wind? It's a wash.

They aren't afraid of RC's plan. They are afraid of the Snarl. Yeah, and they can render Reddie's plan moot with one more vote, or just a sign that they need to end the world and start again.

Heh, it is fun to watch Reddie feel cheered up by the prospects that his plan and his efforts have caused deities to take him seriously, even if they don't have to. (They can end the world twenty minutes from now, if they feel like it ...)

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, and they can render Reddie's plan moot with one more vote, or just a sign that they need to end the world and start again.

Which, let's face it, is very unlikely. The last vote belongs to a bunch of dvarwes, and the Order's ally can explain to them what's at stake with ease (also, we saw many of them panic when they realized they almost destroyed the world through sheer stupidity).

[dancrilis]

Yeah, and they can render Reddie's plan moot with one more vote, or just a sign that they need to end the world and start again.

The gods have a 'No-Backsies' rule (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html), which means that a new vote likely cannot be called until after the current one resolves which could take weeks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html).

Inadvertently Hel interfering might be the one thing keeping her from winning and allowing The Dark One a shot.

[Peelee]

Well, the Order's there to prevent Xykon from staying alive and to keep Team Evil from finding the Gate, both of which would stop the Plan dead on its track.
Also, Redcloak's continued existence is important if negotiations are to continue after the Ritual is performed (and, you see, that is in the Dark One's interest, since the Snarl can eradicate his own followers through the unsealed rifts just as easily as it can deal with the specimens of any given species: the Gates are useful to him, whereas the unsealed rifts are much less so, to put it mildly).
The Order has thus far failed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from staying alive every time they encountered each other, so I don't think Redcloak would be overly concerned here.

Xykon is a lot of things, but "alive" isn't one of them. According to "Start of Darkness", he died 27 years before Strip 1 in Lirian's Glade.
"Alive", in this case, is shorthand for "not destroyed."

[Metastachydium]

The Order has thus far failed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from staying alive every time they encountered each other, so I don't think Redcloak would be overly concerned here.

They prevented them (directly or indirectly) from seizing three of the Gates before, though. Also, Roy learned a few new tricks since last time they butted heads.

Besides, Roy destroyed Xykon's body once, while Redcloak got very nearly killed during the attack of Darth V, so you might want to revise that statement a little bit.

[happycrow]

Redcloak's right. He's reading it a bit off, but he's still right....from the pov of the game he's been playing.

For once, a goblin and his actions are actually significant not merely to the world, but to the Gods Themselves.

I think the poor benighted bastard's earned a little bit of evil gloating there.

[Peelee]

They prevented them (directly or indirectly) from seizing three of the Gates before, though.
From our point of view, yes. From Team Evil's point of view, they got super lucky at Dorukan's Gate, were irrelevant at Soon's Gate, and only succeeded at Girard's Gate due to getting there first - and, notably, that one was denied them by being destroyed.

And, lest we forget...Redcloak sees the world being destroyed as perfectly acceptable alternative, so it's not like he's absolutely invested in this final Gate not getting blown.

Also, Roy learned a few new tricks since last time they butted heads.
They don't know that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fear is overrated as a negotiation tool. It's a good way to make people act impulsively, but that's only useful if their impulsive solution to that fear is the thing you want, and not something like "I'm gonna kill you all".

[Fyraltari]

I am grand just a mild believer in:
That sounds pretty terrible, honestly.

The Order did not want to deny the Vector Legion or the Linear Guild Girard's Gate. They were there in the hope that they can reach and secure it before Team Evil does.
They were there for both reasons. And Malack wasn’t there because of Redcloak.

Also, without an arcane caster the ritual is useless. Redcloak's resident arcane caster was Xykon the last time I checked.
Yes. That’s the problem, Redcloak refuses to ditch Xykon because if he did he’d have to acknowledge that he let the madman murder countless goblins (including but not limited to the spy and the craftsman he refused to resurrect to outmaneuver Xykon) and defile their remains by turning them into the undead (or having Tsukiko do so) as well as Redcloak’s Owen murder of his brother for squat.
And since Durkon’s plan has absolutely nothing to do with the bone-man Redcloak will never agree to it. It’s that simple.





That's about right. But it's a really bad backup plan, and Durkon can explain that to Redcloak. If Plan A is getting what he wants from the gods for something he would have to deal with anyway (unsealed rifts are unsealed rifts), and Plan B is the Plan, now, that is a much better setup than ”Plan A is the Plan, Plan B is Armageddon Special (which likely wouldn't work and not just because he would die: the gods have no reason to give him a vote when the new world is put together)”.
Of course the gods would have a reason to give him a vote, they would still need him to cage the Snarl!
Honestly I doubt Redcloak cares about the broken rifts. All he wants at this point is to fulfill the Plan to alleviate his guilt.

[Metastachydium]

From our point of view, yes. From Team Evil's point of view, they got super lucky at Dorukan's Gate, were irrelevant at Soon's Gate, and only succeeded at Girard's Gate due to getting there first - and, notably, that one was denied them by being destroyed.

And, lest we forget...Redcloak sees the world being destroyed as perfectly acceptable alternative, so it's not like he's absolutely invested in this final Gate not getting blown.

Well, Kraagor's is exactly the type of Gate which the Order could, with some luck and a good enough timing, find first right under their nose. Also, Monster Hollow is enough of a nuisance even without a third party gang of nasty PCs meddling with Team Evil's affairs.

As for the other issue, I could only repeat what I said in #91.



They don't know that.

True. I'd expect something of that sort in their place, though.



They were there for both reasons. And Malack wasn’t there because of Redcloak.

They sailed to the Western continent believing Nale is dead and without any knowledge regarding Tarquin. And Malack could have benn anywhere if Durkon wasn't around to murder.


Yes. That’s the problem, Redcloak refuses to ditch Xykon because if he did he’d have to acknowledge that he let the madman murder countless goblins (including but not limited to the spy and the craftsman he refused to resurrect to outmaneuver Xykon) and defile their remains by turning them into the undead (or having Tsukiko do so) as well as Redcloak’s Owen murder of his brother for squat.
And since Durkon’s plan has absolutely nothing to do with the bone-man Redcloak will never agree to it. It’s that simple.

Of course the gods would have a reason to give him a vote, they would still need him to cage the Snarl!
Honestly I doubt Redcloak cares about the broken rifts. All he wants at this point is to fulfill the Plan to alleviate his guilt.

I don't quite believe that ALL he wants is to alleviate his guilt.
Also, I believe that via not ditching a Plan and giving him a chance to get back at Xykon afterwards his psychological issues can be circumvented (classical psychoanalisis called this sublimation).

[Peelee]

Well, Kraagor's is exactly the type of Gate which the Order could, with some luck and a good enough timing, find first right under their nose. Also, Monster Hollow is enough of a nuisance even without a third party gang of nasty PCs meddling with Team Evil's affairs.

As for the other issue, I could only repeat what I said in #91.

What you said there was wrong, though; the gods have every reason to give him a vote in the new world (assuming he makes it in, of course); if they don't, there would absolutely be conflict, and a new Snarl would rise. The gods ain't hobbits, they don't want second breakfast Snarl. From TDO's point of view, the backup plan is perfectly good; it's just, as long as there's a world already here, why not make that the primary plan, is all.

[Metastachydium]

What you said there was wrong, though; the gods have every reason to give him a vote in the new world (assuming he makes it in, of course); if they don't, there would absolutely be conflict, and a new Snarl would rise. The gods ain't hobbits, they don't want second breakfast Snarl. From TDO's point of view, the backup plan is perfectly good; it's just, as long as there's a world already here, why not make that the primary plan, is all.

I wonder. Why doesn't he have a say right now, in that case? Further, any given pantheon should be able to overpower him without help from the other two. That way putting him down could create a two-colour snarl at worst, which they can easily contain.
And again: it's easier to argue against the end-of-the-world scenario being safe than arguing against the Plan.

[Peelee]

I wonder. Why doesn't he have a say right now, in that case? Further, any given pantheon should be able to overpower him without help from the other two. That way putting him down could create a two-colour snarl at worst, which they can easily contain.

Let's say I move to an apartment where the rules are that all roomies get to participate in cooking. If I come in during the middle of dinner, that's not much use to me until the next day.

Also, the pantheons are not wholly united; TDO had allies from all three, IIRC.

[understatement]

I wonder. Why doesn't he have a say right now, in that case? Further, any given pantheon should be able to overpower him without help from the other two. That way putting him down could create a two-colour snarl at worst, which they can easily contain.
And again: it's easier to argue against the end-of-the-world scenario being safe than arguing against the Plan.

A two-color snarl is still much more powerful than the one-color gods, and I think the Giant mentioned somewhere that their chance to kill him was only when the TDO was still weak from Ascension.

***

On a slightly unrelated tangent, Redcloak does have every reason to believe that the gods are only trying negotiation because they're scared, since he'd probably point out that no one has prevously tried to negotiate with any Crimson Mantle bearers before.

[Metastachydium]

Let's say I move to an apartment where the rules are that all roomies get to participate in cooking. If I come in during the middle of dinner, that's not much use to me until the next day.

In that case, why isn't his current Plan B his Plan A? (Also, new roomie can add extra salt to the dinner at will unless someone stops him.)


Also, the pantheons are not wholly united; TDO had allies from all three, IIRC.

Rat's apparently furious, though, while Tiamat is playing her own game.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And that good folks is how "conceited" looks like.

This message brought to you by the Committee to Provide Dictionary Illustration.
I'm not sure I'd call it "conceited" so much as "interpreting new information through the lens of previous concerns".
:redcloak: "So my plans AREN'T pointless! I'm not risking the world for nothing! The gods ARE intimidated by this plan!"



I tend to agree, but the sunk cost fallacy has always had a lot of ego in it. "I can't have been wrong" is usually a core part of a sunk cost fallacy.
Actually, the core of the sunk-cost fallacy is loss aversion. Not "I can't have been wrong," but "I don't want to waste all this stuff that I already spent on this".



Which is why Haley needed to be in on the negotiations. She gets that, with her insanely high Diplomacy skill point pile.
Or barring her, at least bring Elan along. His Charisma has to be good for [I]something.



Redcloak, don't be fool.
The moment you even DARE to release Snarl, Gods will destroy the world. So there is no chance your plan is gonna succeed.
Durkon here just giving you a chance to literally survive.
The Plan is only to threaten to release the Snarl, not to actually do that. Which might result in the same response, but it pays to be precise.



Surely that concession would be unacceptable to either side. The needed concession is that "Goblinoids" become a PC race in this and future worlds. Of course Durkon can't offer that, but he can explain about how the gods talk to each other.
TDO knows how gods communicate. He just dropped out of their private chat group. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)
The problem isn't setting up lines of communication—it's getting TDO to bite.



Yeah, and they can render Reddie's plan moot with one more vote, or just a sign that they need to end the world and start again.
If the Godsmoot is anything like real-world voting, they'd need to start another round, not just have one person change their mind. Especially since there is a specific "no backsies" rule (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) which the gods must follow.



I wonder. Why doesn't he have a say right now, in that case? Further, any given pantheon should be able to overpower him without help from the other two. That way putting him down could create a two-colour snarl at worst, which they can easily contain
Because TDO cut ties with his allies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) before they could convince the rest of the gods to let him in. The gods didn't let him in initially because they were still thinking of him as an upjumped goblin who was slaughtering thousands of their followers.



That was never mentioned in the initial scenario: If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money".

The guy who wants to rob a bank might not even be inside a bank - or have threatened anyone, the bank might just send out memos to everyone they know who has acquired a gun to advise them on bank policy just in case there is any confusion.
If the guy accepts bank policy the bank is going to accept it also - the deal is only likely unacceptable from one side.
Technically, we don't even know that the guy is going to rob a bank. But that's pretty obvious from the scenario presented. You're allowed to leave some things unspecified if they're obvious enough that only obnoxious pedants would complain about leaving them out.
And given how much pedantry I reflexively engage in, the fact that I find this obnoxious should say something.



I am grand just a mild believer in: -removed by quote function-
I prefer "trust but verify". Shorter, and probably better on your mental health.

[Ron Miel]

And that's after some 30 years of being subservient to Xykon. Yeesh!

30 years of letting Xykon think he's in charge.

[Peelee]

In that case, why isn't his current Plan B his Plan A? (Also, new roomie can add eztra salt to dinner unless someone stops him.)
Plan A is basically trying to get the salt. Plan B is going to bed hungry and joining the next meal cook. Both work, plan B even gets much greater agency in how the meal goes, but plan A is easier and more immediate. If, however, nobody passes the damn salt, then screw 'em, and maybe flip the table.

Rat's apparently furious, though, ehile Tiamat is playing her own game.
And?

[Metastachydium]

The Plan is only to threaten to release the Snarl, not to actually do that. Which might result in the same response, but it pays to be precise.



TDO knows how gods communicate. He just dropped out of their private chat group. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)
The problem isn't setting up lines of communication—it's getting TDO to bite.



If the Godsmoot is anything like real-world voting, they'd need to start another round, not just have one person change their mind. Especially since there is a specific "no backsies" rule (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) which the gods must follow.



Because TDO cut ties with his allies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) before they could convince the rest of the gods to let him in. The gods didn't let him in initially because they were still thinking of him as an upjumped goblin who was slaughtering thousands of their followers.

And what is the exact reason why he should be content with that instead of pressing the issue himself?


Plan A is basically trying to get the salt. Plan B is going to bed hungry and joining the next meal cook. Both work, plan B even gets much greater agency in how the meal goes, but plan A is easier and more immediate. If, however, nobody passes the damn salt, then screw 'em, and maybe flip the table.
And how is that better than ”Plan A is they give him the salt and the key to the cupboard where they keep it, and Plan B is he uses the key to get it himself if they change their mind later, take the salt away from him and lock it up”?


And?
It means he currently has no stable allies that we know of in two of the pantheons.

[RatElemental]

I wonder. Why doesn't he have a say right now, in that case? Further, any given pantheon should be able to overpower him without help from the other two. That way putting him down could create a two-colour snarl at worst, which they can easily contain.


I don't think any gods are chomping at the bit to die in order to take out one other upstart god, let alone sacrifice their entire pantheon to do so. It's not unlikely that the gods would have to destroy the world to contain the new snarl, too, or at least just cede whatever plane it was spawned on to it entirely.

[One Skunk Todd]

One thing Durkon could offer is an entire world exclusively for the goblinoid races on the other side of one of the gates. Does Redcloak know anything about what others have seen through the unsealed gates? eta: Unsealed rifts I should say.

[Metastachydium]

One thing Durkon could offer is an entire world exclusively for the goblinoid races on the other side of one of the gates. Does Redcloak know anything about what others have seen through the unsealed gates?

.An entire world with just them and the Snarl. (Until a while; after that, it would be an entire world with just the Snarl.)

[RatElemental]

One thing Durkon could offer is an entire world exclusively for the goblinoid races on the other side of one of the gates. Does Redcloak know anything about what others have seen through the unsealed gates?

As far as Recloak knows, going through a rift is a one way ticket to your soul being annihilated. And he's not even necessarily wrong. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)

I highly doubt he would take that offer.

[Metastachydium]

.An entire world with just them and the Snarl. (Until a while; after that, it would be an entire world with just the Snarl.)


I don't think any gods are chomping at the bit to die in order to take out one other upstart god, let alone sacrifice their entire pantheon to do so. It's not unlikely that the gods would have to destroy the world to contain the new snarl, too, or at least just cede whatever plane it was spawned on to it entirely.

That's a fair point that you people keep making, but it doesn't explain why he must wait until after the world is over and done with to announce his demands. If the gods are afraid of two colour snarls, he could just, for instance raid the domain of a weaker one and take 'em hostage with his big freakin' axe right now and as we speak.

[One Skunk Todd]

But if they work together to imprison the snarl permanently, will that other world or worlds be there for the taking? Do we know for sure it's all the same world or could it be multiple different ones?

[understatement]

That's a fair point that you people keep making, but it doesn't explain why he must wait until after the world is over and done with to announce his demands. If the gods are afraid of two colour snarls, he could just, for instance raid the domain of a weaker one and take 'em hostage with his big freakin' axe right now and as we speak.

It's possible that you can only make new species when a new world is being created, and you can't change any of the predisposed "makeup" of the old ones -- that explains why the TDO couldn't just make his goblins PC races once he ascended.

[Paleomancer]

That was never mentioned in the initial scenario: If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money".

The guy who wants to rob a bank might not even be inside a bank - or have threatened anyone, the bank might just send out memos to everyone they know who has acquired a gun to advise them on bank policy just in case there is any confusion.
If the guy accepts bank policy the bank is going to accept it also - the deal is only likely unacceptable from one side.

I do have to point out the scenario you describe makes absolutely no sense... The whole point of a weapon in a robbery is to add the threat of force in coercing the bank into turning over money to the robber. A bank won't be happy until the bank robber, is neutralized as a threat, and the simplest way is to remove the weapon from the robber. That is explicitly why real people will bring weapons in perpetrating robberies, even if they don't "intend" to use them, and why banks often have strict rules on displaying weapons. Any bank that did what you suggest would be plagued with robberies and injured or dead staff and/or customers - the criminal is already breaking the law and disrespecting the bank's policy by robbing it... why on earth would they respect the bank's proposal as you suggest?

[Emperor Time]

At this rate, Redcloak will be thinking he made the right choice with glee. When the gods have to destroy the earth before the Snarl can kill them all. Which means Durkon needs to think up something fast if he wants any hope of Redcloak to even entertain the idea of cooperating with the other gods.

[Metastachydium]

It's possible that you can only make new species when a new world is being created, and you can't change any of the predisposed "makeup" of the old ones -- that explains why the TDO couldn't just make his goblins PC races once he ascended.

That is certainly not the case, or, at any rate, Big Purple does not think that it is. Otherwise destroying the world would be his Plans A to Z, since nothing short of that could give him what he wants.
Also, like I said, all the gods have to do is tell their followers that goblinoids are not fair game anymore, and they must let them have the nice things.

[Giggling Ghast]

Uh, Redcloak, it was THE Plan before you became High Priest of the Dark One.

This is probably why your god doesn't talk to you, Mr. Oversized Ego.

[dancrilis]

I do have to point out the scenario you describe makes absolutely no sense...

You are starting from a false premise - it is not my scenario.
The scenario is: If my goal is to get rich and I acquire a gun so I can rob a bank, you (as the bank) would tell me. "Here's the deal. You get to keep the gun and we keep all the money".
With the point of this being: That would not be acceptable to either side.

My point and any sub scenario I create is merely that such a solution would only not be acceptable to the 'wanna be bank robber' unless other criteria is added.

To create a scenario:
Person A approachs Person B on the street and says 'give me your money or I will do you harm and take it' and then Person C who overhears decides to offer a suggestion of 'how about you do them harm but you let them keep their money' - that suggestion would presumedly 'not be acceptable to either side'.
The bank scenario as presented is fine for the bank to accept - providing that the Bank gets to keep its money it doesn't care if the guy keeps the gun unless other items are added to the scenario.

[Fyraltari]

30 years of letting Xykon think he's in charge.
If there are two people and one of these people gets to decide how many eyes the other have then that person is in control whatever the other thinks.
Xykon’s motivation for taking part in this is that he’s got nothing better to do. The day Xykon decide that this thing is boring Redcloak would have nothing to stop him from turning him into a meat accordion to play while the zombified bugbears fight for his entertainment.

That is certainly not the case, or, at any rate, Big Purple does not think that it is. Otherwise destroying the world would be his Plans A to Z, since nothing short of that could give him what he wants.
Also, like I said, all the gods have to do is tell their followers that goblinoids are not fair game anymore, and they must let them have the nice things.

Plan B gives TDO equal standing with the other gods. Plan A makes him the biggest guy around. Do not be mistaken, Redcloak and his master never aimed for equality, they want to be top dogs, but will settle for equality if all else fails.

[Psychronia]

Hmm. Would it be better to play to his ego, or for Durkon to mention the fact that whether Team Evil wins, makes a mistake, or Team Good pulls the trigger on the gate, all the gods lose?

[Arathorne]

Not sure if Durkon groks all of that, though.


It's a wash.


well done, references to two of my favs in a single post, Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and Joss Whedon's Firefly

lots a respect for getting them both in!!:smallsmile:

[understatement]

That is certainly not the case, or, at any rate, Big Purple does not think that it is. Otherwise destroying the world would be his Plans A to Z, since nothing short of that could give him what he wants.
Also, like I said, all the gods have to do is tell their followers that goblinoids are not fair game anymore, and they must let them have the nice things.

If the Dark One could simply make all existing goblins become PC races (which would mean better land, or have a higher chance of having better stats) then he wouldn't need to blackmail the gods with anything at all. As such, he is, which suggests to me that the concessions the gods would give him would make up for the natural disadvantage that goblins had as an XP race.

Besides, both SOD and the Crayons of Time scene (where Sif and Monkey argue over ninjas) seem to imply that all new races can only be created when a new world forms.

[Metastachydium]

If the Dark One could simply make all existing goblins become PC races (which would mean better land, or have a higher chance of having better stats) then he wouldn't need to blackmail the gods with anything at all. As such, he is, which suggests to me that the concessions the gods would give him would make up for the natural disadvantage that goblins had as an XP race.

Besides, both SOD and the Crayons of Time scene (where Sif and Monkey argue over ninjas) seem to imply that all new races can only be created when a new world forms.

I can only repeat myself here. If he could not achieve what he wants to achieve without ending the world and making a new one, he would now strive to end the world, period. He would not waste his time on the Plan.
As for the argument you present for your position, I would say the gods can do much anything they want (as long as it's largely compatible with the setting), if and only if there is consensus among them; I don't think there are further restrictions. (Besides, the goblinoid races already exist, which means they do not have to be created.)



Plan B gives TDO equal standing with the other gods. Plan A makes him the biggest guy around. Do not be mistaken, Redcloak and his master never aimed for equality, they want to be top dogs, but will settle for equality if all else fails.

I can't see how his current standing is inherently less equal than the standing he would have during the course of a new creation. The ace up his sleeve in the latter case would be that conflict betwen him and the others would create new snarls, but he already has that ace: he could invoke the same threat by entering the domain of any given god and provoking them.
Further, how would he know where to find the other gods who retreat into safety upon unmaking the world? The only reason they should invite him to participate in the worldbuilding process is his unique quiddity which he does not know about.

[understatement]

I can only repeat myself here. If he could not achieve what he wants to achieve without ending the world and making a new one, he would now strive to end the world, period. He would not waste his time on the Plan.

The Dark One wants to achieve goblinoid equality/superiority. There are two routes:

a) in this current world, he strongarms the gods to give him concessions. This probably means better land, or tell your followers to stop attacking, or give goblins urbanized areas.

b) if the Plan fails and the Snarl is released or the gods destroy the world, no biggie -- but now the Dark One will have a direct hand in creating the new race of goblinoids, one without a built-in XP-fodder cap.

Plan A is the capitalized-P Plan Redcloak goes on about. Plan B is simply a backup and an 'acceptable' risk to both TDO and Redcloak. The Dark One does not have to wait until the world is destroyed to threaten the gods if he wants plan A to work.


As for the argument you present for your position, I would say the gods can do much anything they want as long as it's largely compatible with the setting, if and only if there is consensus among them. (Besides, the goblinoid races already exist, which means they do not have to be created.)

The goblinoids were created by the gods, so yes, they exist. :smallconfused: But judging by the fact that the TDO can't just wave his finger and make all the goblins' land fertile suggests there's quite a hard barrier on gods interfering on mortal land. The Dark One doesn't need a consensus to act on the mortal plane either, since he isn't part of any pantheon.

[Metastachydium]

The Dark One wants to achieve goblinoid equality/superiority. There are two routes:

a) in this current world, he strongarms the gods to give him concessions. This probably means better land, or tell your followers to stop attacking, or give goblins urbanized areas.

That's my point. And my original question was as follows: if the threat of god-to-god hostility creating a new snarl is reason enough for the other gods to offer him a table at the seat when they plan the next world, why doesn't he walk up to them right now? God-to-god conflict could create a new snarl in this case as well, so by the logic you seem to follow, he would not need the Plan to force their hands. All he would have to do would be to threaten them with getting uncomfortably close and personal, maybe even attacking them.


The goblinoids were created by the gods, so yes, they exist. :smallconfused: But judging by the fact that the TDO can't just wave his finger and make all the goblins' land fertile suggests there's quite a hard barrier on gods interfering on mortal land. The Dark One doesn't need a consensus to act on the mortal plane either, since he isn't part of any pantheon.
He would have to manipulate the red, blue and yellow threads of creation/reality to actually alter the landscape. He's purple, and therefore he cannot do that (and, for that matter, neither can the others, unless all three pantheons agree they should, since everything that exists is by definition a three colour entity).

[Peelee]

That's my point. And my original question was as follows: if the threat of god-to-god hostility creating a new snarl is reason enough for the other gods to offer him a table at the seat when they plan the next world, why doesn't he walk up to them right now?

Because the last time he did that, he got killed.

[Metastachydium]

Because the last time he did that, he got killed.

He wasn't a god at that point. Moreover, if the other gods have this option with no risk attached right now, they will be able to do the same when he tries to interfere with the creation of a new world. I don't see any key difference between the latter two scenarios.

[Peelee]

He wasn't a god at that point. Moreover, if the other gods have this option with no risk attached right now, they will be able to do the same when he tries to interfere with the creation of a new world. I don't see any key difference between the latter two scenarios.

Yeah, but major effects that play a seminal role in your existence tend to make an imprint. Also, it would be remiss of me if I failed to point out that one of his first experiences as a god was Thor trying to murder him. And then found out that even the gods who allied with him had lied to him.

So, ya know, kind of a pattern going on there.

[Mad Humanist]

Why?
If you accept that deal (and don't try to alter it to something else) surely that would be acceptable to the bank.

The bank does not want people pointing guns at their employees. Sure they might "agree" to the deal, but they are damn well pressing the panic button under the desk. So there is a chance I'd lose the gun and quite a bit more.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, but major effects that play a seminal role in your existence tend to make an imprint. Also, it would be remiss of me if I failed to point out that one of his first experiences as a god was Thor trying to murder him. And then found out that even the gods who allied with him had lied to him.

So, ya know, kind of a pattern going on there.

That could very well be a thing. Surely, there's little love lost between Big Purple and that lot. But what exactly would make the same gods he has reason to be wary of a lot more trustworthy from his perspective once they destroyed the world to sabotage his efforts?

[RatElemental]

That's a fair point that you people keep making, but it doesn't explain why he must wait until after the world is over and done with to announce his demands. If the gods are afraid of two colour snarls, he could just, for instance raid the domain of a weaker one and take 'em hostage with his big freakin' axe right now and as we speak.

If just having a mild disagreement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) with another god in person can spawn a snarl, taking one hostage and threatening to create a snarl easily could, whether you want it to or not. It'd be like trying to take someone hostage with a bomb strapped to your chest that goes off if it detects some one else's body heat near you.

[Peelee]

That could very well be a thing. Surely, there's little love lost between Big Purple and that lot. But what exactly would make the same gods he has reason to be wary of a lot more trustworthy from his perspective once they destroyed the world to sabotage his efforts?

The lack of any way to stop him.

The current world is already created. TDO doesn't have to abide by, say, the Domain Agreement, or other god rules, but if he doesn't, then all the other gods do have ways to counteract that (eg Hel could make an unstoppable virus to kill all goblinoids). During world creation? The only way to counteract him would create another Snarl.

[Metastachydium]

The bank does not want people pointing guns at their employees. Sure they might "agree" to the deal, but they are damn well pressing the panic button under the desk. So there is a chance I'd lose the gun and quite a bit more.

Permit me to rephrase the analogy. Our man goes to the bank, saying he would buy shares. The employees laugh him off, security throws him out, the whole deal. He decides he'll get a gun and go back to coerce them into accepting his terms. But then, the bank contacts him that nebulous evil terrorists (who did the same things many a time before) placed a bomb in their building, and they know he is the only one who can safely defuse it (and all the other bombs said terrorists will plant). The man is worried that he will be abused again, so the bank offers him to not only give him shares once the bomb is dealt with, but they will also help him get a gun and give him special permission to carry it in their building as long as he agrees not to draw it if they stick to their end of the deal.


The lack of any way to stop him.

The current world is already created. TDO doesn't have to abide by, say, the Domain Agreement, or other god rules, but if he doesn't, then all the other gods do have ways to counteract that (eg Hel could make an unstoppable virus to kill all goblinoids). During world creation? The only way to counteract him would create another Snarl.

And what exactly would stop the Dark One from invading the incredibly weak Hel's domain and stating that ”sorry kiddo, you undo that or I'll attack; If you don't defend yourself, it's gonna hurt; if you do, our powers might mix up, and boom: SNARL [the way I see it, snarls are amorphous mixtures of divine power; it's not about differences or arguments – two gods may hate each other all they want as long as they don't let powers of different colour mix up in an uncontrolled fashion]”?

[Angrith]

My guess as to why the Dark One doesn't just waltz into another god's plane to threaten creation of another snarl is that he doesn't want to stand at ground zero. There's a huge difference between threatening to move the Snarl to Valhalla or Hel and actually going there to make one. Moving the Snarl poses no direct threat to the Dark One. Creating one puts himself directly in its path.

The difference between threatening the gods with him coming over now and at world creation is also a matter of scale. Sure, he could threaten to invade Valhalla and make another snarl, but the likely results is that both he and Thor dies. Then the other gods shrug and go on about their days. If everyone is together at world creation, then they all have to listen to the Dark One because they are all threatened. It's the difference between holding a city captive with your one nuke and the entire world.

[faustin]

"I personally strike fear on the hearts of the Gods themselves."

No, you are an angry brat playing with matches and risking setting the house on fire, and the Gods are landlords willing to kick you and everybody else out before you ever get the chance to.

[Metastachydium]

My guess as to why the Dark One doesn't just waltz into another god's plane to threaten creation of another snarl is that he doesn't want to stand at ground zero. There's a huge difference between threatening to move the Snarl to Valhalla or Hel and actually going there to make one. Moving the Snarl poses no direct threat to the Dark One. Creating one puts himself directly in its path.

The difference between threatening the gods with him coming over now and at world creation is also a matter of scale. Sure, he could threaten to invade Valhalla and make another snarl, but the likely results is that both he and Thor dies. Then the other gods shrug and go on about their days. If everyone is together at world creation, then they all have to listen to the Dark One because they are all threatened. It's the difference between holding a city captive with your one nuke and the entire world.

But then, as far as the Dark One knows, he's not special, worse yet, the gods hate him and his people. If the gods would just shrug about losing him and another deity to a two colour snarl, the option of one god from one pantheon engaging him (e.g. to punish him for pushing them into destorying a perfectly good world; in fact, the whole conflict as of right now is partly about the gods not wanting Big Purple to tell them what to do), while everyone else retreats is absolutely a viable possibility even after destroying the world. The Dark One was a decent enough general to know the other gods can turn any situation into a small scale fight like that if they want to do so.

[Peelee]

"I personally strike fear on the hearts of the Gods themselves."

No, you are an angry brat playing with matches and risking setting the house on fire, and the Gods are landlords willing to kick you and everybody else out before you ever get the chance to.

Imean, an angry brat playing with matches and risking setting the house on fire is absolutely something that would scare me, the landlord. Redcloak's not wrong.

And what exactly would stop the Dark One from invading the incredibly weak Hel's domain and stating that ”sorry kiddo, you undo that or I'll attack; If you don't defend yourself, it's gonna hurt; if you do, our powers might mix up, and boom: SNARL [the way I see it, snarls are amorphous mixtures of divine power; it's not about differences or arguments – two gods may hate each other all they want as long as they don't let powers of different colour mix up in an uncontrolled fashion]”?
A bunch of god stuff that we haven't been told about yet because the important thing to know is that The Dark One and the other gods are all behaving in ways that they expect will work so the most logical thing for us to do is assume that they know what they are doing unless we are explicitly informed that they are mistaken, such as TDO not knowing that he would likely not survive to the next world.

...is something I imagine the author would say.

[Metastachydium]

A bunch of god stuff that we haven't been told about yet because the important thing to know is that The Dark One and the other gods are all behaving in ways that they expect will work so the most logical thing for us to do is assume that they know what they are doing unless we are explicitly informed that they are mistaken, such as TDO not knowing that he would likely not survive to the next world.

...is something I imagine the author would say.

Come on, you're just being lazy.

(Also, from what I've seen thus far, the author would likely shoot down any and every theory suggesting that the issues the work presents cannot be resolved without unmaking the world and killing everyone, because that would be outright cruel.)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Am I the only one who read

What could irritate a god's eye?
and thought: "a mote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God%27s_Eye)"?

[Windscion]

Okay, reading this thread I realize there is a reason for Durkon to tell RC about the multiple failed worlds. If this were the second world, the other gods would assume that new a quiddity will pop up frequently enough that they can simply wait him out. (And already some gods have expressed the desire to do exactly this)(Strip#anyone?).
This _might_ tip the balance to convince TDO his position is strong enough to begin negotiations.

[Fyraltari]

Imean, an angry brat playing with matches and risking settin

Yep, that's basically Hanlon's razor. Don't be afraid of the people who do bad **** on purpose, be afraid of the people who don't realize the consequences of their actions.

[Kamunami]

Last thread I complained about how incredibly bad Durkon's attempts at explaining things were, but this here is much more the type of negotiations failure I'd expect of him :)

[faustin]

I'm thinking Thor should have given Durkon a list of possible concessions to the goblin race in exchange for Redcloak's cooperation.
After all, HE should know RC isn't gonna give up the Plan for free.

[Peelee]

Come on, you're just being lazy.

Two things can be true at once.:smalltongue:

[ebarde]

Tbh I never really got the obssession a lot of people have with every character being a tactical genius that always does the best course of action in whatever scenario. I mean even the gods I wouldn't go as far as to say they are all that pragmatical for the most part. I honestly feel the comic doesn't need to address why every possible course of action the characters would take except for the one they're taking would spell disaster, I feel that story and character is more important than satisfying fan theories.

If a character isn't doing X it's probably cause they considered it risky, didn't considered it at all due to being single-minded or it's impossible due to factors not plot relevant enough to be addressed. I mean, this is a pretty high fantasy world so it's next to impossible to exposition away every idea people can come up with about what should happen.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Yep, that's basically Hanlon's razor. Don't be afraid of the people who do bad **** on purpose, be afraid of the people who don't realize the consequences of their actions.

That's not the point.


Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Both can still certainly be feared and/or reviled, the point is that active ill intent is far less common than passive incompetence or malpractice, and that the former shouldn't be automatically assumed in place of the latter.

It's a maxim against paranoia, not against fear.

[Metastachydium]

Tbh I never really got the obssession a lot of people have with every character being a tactical genius that always does the best course of action in whatever scenario. I mean even the gods I wouldn't go as far as to say they are all that pragmatical for the most part. I honestly feel the comic doesn't need to address why every possible course of action the characters would take except for the one they're taking would spell disaster, I feel that story and character is more important than satisfying fan theories.

If a character isn't doing X it's probably cause they considered it risky, didn't considered it at all due to being single-minded or it's impossible due to factors not plot relevant enough to be addressed. I mean, this is a pretty high fantasy world so it's next to impossible to exposition away every idea people can come up with about what should happen.

(Give me a little leeway there: I only entered the whole nitpicking contest to protect my original crazy theory of a much broader scope from all these fine people who would do harm to the poor dear.)


That's not the point.

Both can still certainly be feared and/or reviled, the point is that active ill intent is far less common than passive incompetence or malpractice, and that the former shouldn't be automatically assumed in place of the latter.

It's a maxim against paranoia, not against fear.

That being said, it can be read as ”be afraid. Always. Even if you get around to stopping bad people, bad things will still continue to happen.”

[Peelee]

(Also, from what I've seen thus far, the author would likely shoot down any and every theory suggesting that the issues the work presents cannot be resolved without unmaking the world and killing everyone, because that would be outright cruel.)

Just realized I forgot to address this:

I do not at all suggest that the issues the work presents cannot be resolved without unmaking the world and killing everyone. I was suggesting that The Dark One can, but does not want to, negotiate with the gods without holding a metaphorical gun to their heads.

[Metastachydium]

Just realized I forgot to address this:

I do not at all suggest that the issues the work presents cannot be resolved without unmaking the world and killing everyone. I was suggesting that The Dark One can, but does not want to, negotiate with the gods without holding a metaphorical gun to their heads.

Eh. You know, that would mean we're mostly on the same page.

[Raven777]

Durkon seems to be expecting Redcloak and TDO to help gratis, which isn’t realistic.

I find this to be a frequent conceit of Good™, and often why it gets in conflict with even Neutral™. Honestly, Durkon would have benefitted immensely from someone like Celia, Haley or even Roy to coach him before that kind of conversation with a smart, rational Evil™ opponent.

[ebarde]

Honestly I can see having Celia debate Redcloak backfiring horribly

[goodpeople25]

I find this to be a frequent conceit of Good™, and often why it gets in conflict with even Neutral™. Honestly, Durkon would have benefitted immensely from someone like Celia, Haley or even Roy to coach him before that kind of conversation with a smart, rational Evil™ opponent.How would that be helpful or necessary in a conversation with Redcloak?

[Rogar Demonblud]

They don't assume everyone is going to toe the line. Haley's a rogue. Celia's a lawyer. Roy has the Order.

Also, Metastachydium, don't base any theories on the idea that TDO knows much of anything. He doesn't have a sponsoring pantheon to school him in Deities for Dummies.

[understatement]

But then, as far as the Dark One knows, he's not special, worse yet, the gods hate him and his people. If the gods would just shrug about losing him and another deity to a two colour snarl, the option of one god from one pantheon engaging him (e.g. to punish him for pushing them into destorying a perfectly good world; in fact, the whole conflict as of right now is partly about the gods not wanting Big Purple to tell them what to do), while everyone else retreats is absolutely a viable possibility even after destroying the world. The Dark One was a decent enough general to know the other gods can turn any situation into a small scale fight like that if they want to do so.

People way more eloquently-spoken than me have shared thoughts at this (similar topic) forum post: "the Dark One's Interference" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610542-the-Dark-One-s-interference).


How would that be helpful or necessary in a conversation with Redcloak?

Celia and Roy do give the impression of being fast-talking negotiators. Durkon right now is emphasizing way too much on what the gods want from the Dark One, and hasn't said anything on what they can give him in return.

[ebarde]

Pretty sure Durkon being the right fit for the job is sorta what the comic is going for here, probably cause him being inside an evil creature and having to talk it down, but also understand it's perspective and motivations is what gave him the tools to now convince Redcloak. Celia and especially Roy honestly have shown to have a bit of trouble putting themselves on people's shoes, and usually can be very antagonizing.

[goodpeople25]

People way more eloquently-spoken than me have shared thoughts at this (similar topic) forum post: "the Dark One's Interference" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610542-the-Dark-One-s-interference).



Celia and Roy do give the impression of being fast-talking negotiators. Durkon right now is emphasizing way too much on what the gods want from the Dark One, and hasn't said anything on what they can give him in return.
Yes I'm sure coaching by the aforementioned characters could be a help in negotiating with a smart, rational, Evil opponent.

I'm just not sure how that helps when Durkon needs to talk to Redcloak.

[understatement]

Pretty sure Durkon being the right fit for the job is sorta what the comic is going for here, probably cause him being inside an evil creature and having to talk it down, but also understand it's perspective and motivations is what gave him the tools to now convince Redcloak. Celia and especially Roy honestly have shown to have a bit of trouble putting themselves on people's shoes, and usually can be very antagonizing.

No disagreements here.


Yes I'm sure coaching by the aforementioned characters could be a help in negotiating with a smart, rational, Evil opponent.

I'm just not sure how that helps when Durkon needs to talk to Redcloak.

I'd say Redcloak is fairly rational for an Evil person. He's certainly not stupid, in the very least.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Durkon needs to do a slightly better job of steering the conversation here; I don’t think it’s going on the direction he wanted it to. At some point he also might want to circle around to saying that as much as the gods are afraid of him, he and his god will still die if the other gods pull the trigger.

[The MunchKING]

yeah, that's a heck of a reach back.
Which is why Haley needed to be in on the negotiations. She gets that, with her insanely high Diplomacy skill point pile.

Does she HAVE Diplomacy? I thought she just had Bluff.

[charles]

I think Durkon needs to do a slightly better job of steering the conversation here; I donÂ’t think itÂ’s going on the direction he wanted it to. At some point he also might want to circle around to saying that as much as the gods are afraid of him, he and his god will still die if the other gods pull the trigger.

Yeah, I think this is the old issue of Durkon's Charisma being his dump stat, biting him in the behind. Happened a few times in comic. He even told Thor himself that he's not much of a diplomat.

Really, it's a case that YES, if the Dark One's plans COULD succeed in allowing him to threaten the other gods with the Snarl, he'd probably have more leverage to get things that he wants. But it can't succeed because if he actually does, or even gets close, the gods blow the world along with his modified gate then start the next cycle after he's faded away.

But, he probably does have a little more leverage than what Durkon is indicating. At least enough that the other pantheons would likely recognise him, and any other gods that he helps ascend, as their own pantheon and, if anything, encourage him to get more followers and worship in order to gain more power for helping with the patches or surviving the world's eventual destruction until a new, 4 colour one can be made from scratch. At the very least, the gods would discourage the outright slaughter of all or most goblin-kind so he keeps a steady supply of worship. It's at least a step in the direction that Red Cloak wants to take, or what he thought the Dark One wanted out of leveraging the Snarl.

...Then again, who knows what Tiamat's goons are up to. Somehow it'll be trivial to kill thousands of good aligned dragons if they succeed in whatever they're doing. Thor noted that not all Gods were onboard and some were even happy to see the cycle continue that work with the Dark One.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

It's a bit of a shame that Redcloak probably doesn't have any spells like Detect Lies prepped that would help show that Durkon is negotiating in good faith

If he believes Durkon is in bad faith, this is pointless

Also, I don't think we really need TDO to cooperate

He just needs the power of one of Redcload's 9th level spell slots

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

[gatemansgc]

And also that his god is likely to not survive if the plug gets pulled now.

this. redcloak doesn't want his own god being destroyed.

[Sesharan]

Does anyone else get the impression that Redcloak is stalling for time here? Between this page and the last one, he's been going on a lot of tangents. I can't help suspecting that he might be waiting for Xykon to show up.

[charles]

Does anyone else get the impression that Redcloak is stalling for time here? Between this page and the last one, he's been going on a lot of tangents. I can't help suspecting that he might be waiting for Xykon to show up.

Yeah, he was initially talking to one of the clansmen and sent them away so I could easily imagine it was with some instruction to fetch someone... But Spot checks are Wisdom based so at least Durkon has a better chance of making that than the Charisma based Diplomacy checks he keeps failing.

[Arin]

Durkon is now telling Redcloak two things:

1) the plan is working, the goal of getting better conditions for gobliners can be reached.
2) there is a way of fullfilling the plan without Xykon

And this is really important

I swear, I know this wasn't Rich's plan, but my headcanon is that Pathfinder is the world in the rift that comes out of the end of this series, where Redcloak gets his goblin equality. ;)

As origin stories for RPG conversions go, it's pretty epic.

[jwhouk]

Durkon is obviously failing his diplomacy rolls.

[Jay R]

This is early in the book. Durkon was never going to succeed at this stage. He’s setting the stage for Redcloak’s dramatic turnaround *late* in the book.

[Alex Warlorn]

There's also the fact your souls will be obliterated out of existence if the Snarl gets loose, so evacuating everyone to the afterlife is technically the SANEST CHOICE.

Redcloak ... you idiot... there is nothing more dangerous than someone more powerful than you AND AFRAID OF YOU!!!!

[CriticalFailure]

I swear, I know this wasn't Rich's plan, but my headcanon is that Pathfinder is the world in the rift that comes out of the end of this series, where Redcloak gets his goblin equality. ;)

As origin stories for RPG conversions go, it's pretty epic.

I like this theory. I definitely imagined TDO arguing with the other gods about why they should switch to Parhfinder haha

[danielxcutter]

Methinks TDO may not even be physically capable of conceding to an agreement like this, due to his deific nature(which has been mentioned at least a few times so far in this thread I think). He literally ascended from the vengeance of goblinoids due to the betrayal and death when he was mortal. We don’t know how much that would prevent him, or if it will at all, but I don’t think it’s impossible.

[Warmatt]

Yeah, have not read through all the comments here, but Redcloak, buddy? You are being told that if the gods think your plan is about to work the standard procedure is to destroy the world and start over. Essentially, he has to modify the plan, as otherwise he be dead along with everyone else.

[Windscion]

Methinks TDO may not even be physically capable of conceding to an agreement like this, due to his deific nature(which has been mentioned at least a few times so far in this thread I think). He literally ascended from the vengeance of goblinoids due to the betrayal and death when he was mortal. We don’t know how much that would prevent him, or if it will at all, but I don’t think it’s impossible.
And that right there illustrates the big unknown: TDO. We don't know his true desires, his beliefs, or even what the goblins expectations of him are. So I think we should ignore him for now and concentrate on RC, who we do know a lot about.

[Yirggzmb]

Yeah, have not read through all the comments here, but Redcloak, buddy? You are being told that if the gods think your plan is about to work the standard procedure is to destroy the world and start over. Essentially, he has to modify the plan, as otherwise he be dead along with everyone else.

To be fair, I'm not 100% sure Redcloak would even care if he died in such a scenario. As far as he's concerned, the backup plan is to let the world get destroyed so that TDO gets a say in the next world's creation. That TDO wouldn't survive is beside the point at the moment, because Redcloak doesn't know that yet.

[gerryq]

The point of negotiating is not to change the other person's mind, but to show them why they should change it themselves. Redcloak will never change his mind that the Plan is necessary; instead, Durkon should show him that, for its purpose, it's already succeeded, and now Redcloak just needs to get the concessions he and his god wanted. Cash out now and become the fourth Pantheon. Hell, offer Xykon the god of death position to get him on board (whether TDO actually uplifts him or screws him for all the goblins he's killed is another matter).

I'm not sure I like the idea of Xykon as the god of death. People would be on their deathbeds surrounded by loved ones, then suddenly the skies would open up and Xykon would appear with "MAXIMISED FIREBALL!". Death would never be the same.

[RatElemental]

I think Xykon would prefer a gig as the god of coffee. He'd probably get his sense of taste back and everything.

[Clistenes]

So... Redcloak is ignoring what Durkon has said about the gods being willing to destroy the world rather than letting him carry on his plan to completion?

Is he so invested in THE PLAN that he would rather see the world destroyed and all goblins dead rather than stopping?

And he probably won't believe the Dark One won't survive long enough to see the next world...

[dancrilis]

Is he so invested in THE PLAN that he would rather see the world destroyed and all goblins dead rather than stopping?
Yes (panel 9) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html), (panel 12 details a concession that he might accept).



And he probably won't believe the Dark One won't survive long enough to see the next world...
Even Thor was unsure if the Dark One would or wouldn't make it (and Loki was unsure if Hel would or wouldn't) - so there seems to be some question marks involved in whether deities can make it or not.

[Fyraltari]

Why would anyone would want to help Xykon to goodhood?

So... Redcloak is ignoring what Durkon has said about the gods being willing to destroy the world rather than letting him carry on his plan to completion?

Is he so invested in THE PLAN that he would rather see the world destroyed and all goblins dead rather than stopping?

That was the case even back when he was still somewhat reasonable. That’s a big reason his whole « good of the goblin people » thing is hard to buy.

[dancrilis]

Why would anyone would want to help Xykon to goodhood?


The pantheons are not one big happy family - but expanding the members of the pantheon might result in additional belief for the pantheon as a whole and so make every member more secure.

As for the obvious question of who would worship Xykon - well we still don't know why he told Tsukiko (and Redcloak) why he wanted some high end undead (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) created before they left.

If Xykon is playing to be worshipped by broadly free willed undead within an environment where adventurers have difficulty crushing them - well he might have set decent groundwork for it.

[Metastachydium]

Why would anyone would want to help Xykon to goodhood?
To goodhood? Ask the flying entity with green hair form strip no. 193.
To godhood? I don't know, but I sure hope it won't cross the mind of anyone who can do that.



That was the case even back when he was still somewhat reasonable. That’s a big reason his whole « good of the goblin people » thing is hard to buy.

He did knowingly and deliberately sabotage/stall the Plan for months to consolidate Gobbotopia, though. That is not to say he is perfectly benevolent, sane and not obsessive at all. All I'd like to imply is that the good of the species is still in the mix.

[pendell]

Well, this is certainly interesting on a couple of levels.
1) Redcloak is still blindly following the Dark One. He is rationally listening to Durkon but he is still blinded by his own species prejudice. The Dark One would certainly exterminate all humans at the drop of a hat given the chance, but would do everything he could to save the goblins of this world. The Dark One didn't exist before this world, after all, so has no memory of what came before, neither does Redcloak.

2) I appreciate the way the last book and the plot points therein are flowing in naturally to build into the main story; rather than a mere costly detour, the adventure of the godsmoot and its near destruction of the world is going in to the resolution of the overarching story line.

3) Be that as it may, I'm disappointed that negotiations are breaking down. I am also pretty sure Redcloak has no reason to keep a high-level adventuring adversary alive. I don't think he'll want to let Durkon just walk away when this meeting is over. Possibly some other factor such as the MiTD will intervene to save Durkon's life, but if Redcloak has his way I'm sure he'll kill Durkon and destroy his corpse.

The evil, cynical thought in the back of my mind is : "Good thing we've got a spare cleric, then". :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Metastachydium]

2) I appreciate the way the last book and the plot points therein are flowing in naturally to build into the main story; rather than a mere costly detour, the adventure of the godsmoot and its near destruction of the world is going in to the resolution of the overarching story line.



To be fair, it would be a surprising development if the impending END OF THE FREAKIN' WORLD were not to have an impact on the overarching storyline

[pendell]

To be fair, it would be a surprising development if the impending END OF THE FREAKIN' WORLD were not to have an impact on the overarching storyline

Meh, it's a D&D world. There are eldritch abominations and mad sorcerers all over the place, each with their own gloating plan to achieve ULTIMATE POWER!!! It's what keeps adventuring groups employed, after all.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Lemarc]

Durkon right now is emphasizing way too much on what the gods want from the Dark One, and hasn't said anything on what they can give him in return.

Given what we know of Redcloak, I'm not sure Durkon isn't actually making the best approach. From Redcloak's perspective (not necessarily TDO's), he currently has the strongest bargaining position he'll ever get. If he goes ahead with the ritual, the gods will destroy the world before it's completed, all the goblins will die, and he'll no longer have the destruction of the world and release of the Snarl as leverage. At best, the other gods are then forced to cooperate with TDO in building the next world, which is just the fallback plan - Plan A was always to demand concessions from the gods for this world. Redcloak gloating that his plan has succeeded and thinking fondly of the demands TDO can now extract may be the best chance of securing his cooperation.

[Mad Humanist]

I think Xykon would prefer a gig as the god of coffee. He'd probably get his sense of taste back and everything.

He could have several items in his portfolio:

death
undeath
power
sorcerous magic
coffee

Altogether quite a coherent portfolio I'd say.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think Xykon would prefer a gig as the god of coffee. He'd probably get his sense of taste back and everything.

Now I want Elan to distract Xykon at a critical moment with an illusion of a giant mug of coffee.

[bunsen_h]

As for the obvious question of who would worship Xykon - well we still don't know why he told Tsukiko (and Redcloak) why he wanted some high end undead (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) created before they left.

If Xykon is playing to be worshipped by broadly free willed undead within an environment where adventurers have difficulty crushing them - well he might have set decent groundwork for it.

I'm not convinced that the worship of undead, even high-level ones, "counts". Their degree of free-willedness is somewhat questionable; Redcloak describes Xykon as a puppet (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html). "That’s what you’ve never really understood about the undead, Tsukiko. You treat them like they’re people when they’re nothing but bits of skin and bone and dark energy, glued together by magic into the shape of a man. [...] From the lowliest zombie to Xykon himself, the undead are just complex weapons that we make and aim at other people."

EDIT:

Now I want Elan to distract Xykon at a critical moment with an illusion of a giant mug of coffee.

Would it be possible for someone to give Xykon an illusory sense of smell/taste?

[Rogar Demonblud]

No. Undead are immune to mind-altering illusions.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't feel like sorting this mess right now. I apologize for any inconvenience this causes.


Redcloak is an idiot, because he's making powerful things afraid of what he could do
Now, I don't think that Redcloak is thinking through this the right way, but I realized that he's basically taking a version of the North Korea strategy—make sure nobody wants to piss you off badly enough that you try to wreck them. There are differences, ranging from a non-egocentric economic model to how thoroughly they could ruin the world, but...it's not suicidal.



30 years of letting Xykon think he's in charge.
Once you've dealt with a mountain of crap, you need to ask whether you became the janitor you always pretended to be.



And what is the exact reason why he should be content with that instead of pressing the issue himself?
You quoted four of my statements and this question doesn't make sense applied to any of them. For the two that aren't complete non sequiturs:
"The Plan is only to threaten to release the Snarl, not to actually do that. Which might result in the same response, but it pays to be precise." I'm not sure how releasing the Snarl is "pressing the issue," but...he doesn't have any great way to deal with the Snarl either. Certainly not on his own.
"Because TDO cut ties with his allies before they could convince the rest of the gods to let him in. The gods didn't let him in initially because they were still thinking of him as an upjumped goblin who was slaughtering thousands of their followers." I don't know why TDO didn't press the issue. Maybe he felt it would be pointless.



But if they work together to imprison the snarl permanently, will that other world or worlds be there for the taking? Do we know for sure it's all the same world or could it be multiple different ones?
Isn't the world in the Snarl? Seems like it'd be hard to drop some goblins in there without uncorking the whole mess.



I do have to point out the scenario you describe makes absolutely no sense...
That's the point, Paleomancer. It's a reducto ad absurdum.



And what exactly would stop the Dark One from invading the incredibly weak Hel's domain—
Where did you get the idea that "invading another god's domain" is a thing that gods can do in this universe?


—and stating that ”sorry kiddo, you undo that or I'll attack; If you don't defend yourself, it's gonna hurt; if you do, our powers might mix up, and boom: SNARL
Aside from pointing out that just doing so risks creating a Snarl before you want one, the snarl would kill TDO as quickly as Hel...or more quickly, since Hel has a dad and a guy who wants to be her consort.



I think Durkon needs to do a slightly better job of steering the conversation here; I don’t think it’s going on the direction he wanted it to. At some point he also might want to circle around to saying that as much as the gods are afraid of him, he and his god will still die if the other gods pull the trigger.
So what you're saying is that Durkon needs to take the wheel and brakes, not just the gas pedal.
I don't have anything to add here beyond that metaphor.



I swear, I know this wasn't Rich's plan, but my headcanon is that Pathfinder is the world in the rift that comes out of the end of this series, where Redcloak gets his goblin equality. ;)

As origin stories for RPG conversions go, it's pretty epic.
Pathfinder has fish. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)

I'd find it slightly more plausible that Golarion is an inside-out world with the Snarl being Rovagug imprisoned "inside" the planet, but that's still a stretch.



I'm not sure I like the idea of Xykon as the god of death. People would be on their deathbeds surrounded by loved ones, then suddenly the skies would open up and Xykon would appear with "MAXIMISED FIREBALL!". Death would never be the same.
Honestly, that sounds entertaining. I mean, aside from the fact that dying people would have no loved ones within a 20-foot radius.



I think Xykon would prefer a gig as the god of coffee. He'd probably get his sense of taste back and everything.
The world probably has a greater deficit of Coffee-domain deities than Death-domain ones anyway.



He could have several items in his portfolio:

death
undeath
power
sorcerous magic
coffee

Altogether quite a coherent portfolio I'd say.
I dunno how well coffee fits in there. From my experience in college, that would fit better with wizardly magic.



Now I want Elan to distract Xykon at a critical moment with an illusion of a giant mug of coffee.
:xykon: "Elan! How dare you taunt me with a beverage I can no longer enjoy?"
:roy: "Wait, why do you remember his name?

[understatement]

Given what we know of Redcloak, I'm not sure Durkon isn't actually making the best approach. From Redcloak's perspective (not necessarily TDO's), he currently has the strongest bargaining position he'll ever get. If he goes ahead with the ritual, the gods will destroy the world before it's completed, all the goblins will die, and he'll no longer have the destruction of the world and release of the Snarl as leverage. At best, the other gods are then forced to cooperate with TDO in building the next world, which is just the fallback plan - Plan A was always to demand concessions from the gods for this world. Redcloak gloating that his plan has succeeded and thinking fondly of the demands TDO can now extract may be the best chance of securing his cooperation.

Durkon wants him to drop the Plan, not accidentally imply that it's very much close to working. In this comic he's trying to scare Redcloak out of using it by stressing that the world will blow up -- he doesn't know that Redcloak finds that risk perfectly acceptable. At the least, Durkon should've mentioned earlier that the TDO won't make it (and right now, he should probably mention it as soon as he can unless he wants to turn into dwarfpaste.)

***

Redcloak's expression in the last panel reminds me of these comics: Miko overhearing Shojo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) and Durkula returning to find his master dusted (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html), in that things are about to deteriorate really quickly.

[dancrilis]

Would it be possible for someone to give Xykon an illusory sense of smell/taste?

Spark of Life would probably suffice for this - somewhat DM discretion but then so is losing taste to begin with.

[MoiMagnus]

Possibly some other factor such as the MiTD will intervene to save Durkon's life

Or the remaining of the OOTS team. The negotiation takes place in an open field, so they can be spotted from far away.

[Jaziggy]

Really enjoyed this strip. It exposes the trap Durkon has fallen into. He's not going to win the negotiation until he is looking at it from Redcloak's perspective- and I'm not sure he's capable of that?

From Durkon's perspective, everything Thor says is not only true in the sense that Thor believes it, but also true in the sense that it is accurate.

Thor believes the Snarl is a mindless hate-entity
Thor believes the gate doesn't 'go' anywhere
Thor believes four quiddities will better contain the Snarl than three
Thor believes the Snarl cannot be tamed or destroyed
Thor believes the unleashed Snarl will destroy the Gods

Durkon completely accepts all of that as reality. As readers we know a lot of that isn't true- although we are still being awfully credulous in general when it comes to parts of it we don't have cause to confirm or deny beyond 'Thor said it so it must be so'.

Redcloak, meanwhile, deeply distrusts the Gods and with good cause. He doesn't accept ANY of the premises Durkon is basing his argument on and will either need to have his perceptions altered or have the argument be made from his perspective- why does, in his reality, arranging a meeting between the Dark One and the old Gods serve his interests?

This notion of perspective is a lesson Durkon may have learned from being trapped inside Durkula- but if so he doesn't seem to be applying it to the situation at hand now.

[Jaziggy]

On a completely different note, if you really want to dig into the subtext here, Redcloak asks the question

"What could irritate a God's eye?"

{scrubbed}

And more on the point for the typical readership perhaps is the sci-fi classic "The Mote in God's Eye" which I confess I haven't read, but glancing over the Wikipedia entry suggests it may make for interesting analysis.

[Velaryon]

Of course talking to Redcloak now isn't going to work, because the story is better if it doesn't, and because Redcloak is much further gone than any of the OotS members could possibly have known about (what with the events of Start of Darkness and all).

But man, Durkon is really blowing it. Seems to me his best argument would be to try and get Redcloak to understand that the Dark One already has the leverage he's trying to get by using the Snarl. Like, put it in those exact terms. Tell him that the Dark One can get the other gods to listen to what he wants for his people now, before he even has to go further along with The Plan. At the very least, he could try to get TDO to go have a chat with Thor about it while Redcloak continues to search for the last gate.

Durkon is really bad at this.

[Metastachydium]

[spoiler=Major Arguments]

You quoted four of my statements and this question doesn't make sense applied to any of them. For the two that aren't complete non sequiturs:
"The Plan is only to threaten to release the Snarl, not to actually do that. Which might result in the same response, but it pays to be precise." I'm not sure how releasing the Snarl is "pressing the issue," but...he doesn't have any great way to deal with the Snarl either. Certainly not on his own.
"Because TDO cut ties with his allies before they could convince the rest of the gods to let him in. The gods didn't let him in initially because they were still thinking of him as an upjumped goblin who was slaughtering thousands of their followers." I don't know why TDO didn't press the issue. Maybe he felt it would be pointless.
Give me a break, I'm both new in the whole quoting business and unnecessarily lazy, okay? You answered a previous post of mine there, and I replied to that answer (statement no. 4). In my original post I (basically) asked the question ”why couldn't Big Purple have a say in what's happening in the universe” to which you said that it's because the other gods don't let him participate in the process of decision making. At the time I was arguing with three or four big guns, who kept implying (or so it seemed to me) that Big Purple has reasons to believe he'll have a better chance of being allowed to shape a new world once the previous one is unmade by the other gods. I kept insisting that the others would still outnumber him many to one in that case and they would have all the means necessary, as well as quite a number of goodish reasons not to ”let him in”. You've just got caught up in the crossfire. Sorry for the confusion and allow me to add that I hope my previous reply sounds less like a non sequitur as of right now.



Where did you get the idea that "invading another god's domain" is a thing that gods can do in this universe?

Strip no. 1170. Two gods enter Hel's domain uninvited, and neither seems to be welcome.



Aside from pointing out that just doing so risks creating a Snarl before you want one, the snarl would kill TDO as quickly as Hel...or more quickly, since Hel has a dad and a guy who wants to be her consort.


I brought up this example in the context described above, and strictly within that context it boils down to a Big Purple vs. Daddy and ineffectual would-be-lover scenario at worst (if they pick a fight, which is risky) which still sounds better than a Big Purple vs. Everyone Else scenario after-the end.

(
Once you've dealt with a mountain of crap, you need to ask whether you became the janitor you always pretended to be.

Well, Xykon is in fact unknowingly working towards Redcloak's stated goals, while Redcloak very much isn't doing what Xykon thinks he is doing.)

[dancrilis]

Well, Xykon is in fact unknowingly working towards Redcloak's stated goals, while Redcloak very much isn't doing what Xykon thinks he is doing.)

We don't know that - that is merely what Redcloak indicates he believes, but as Roy but it 'Xykon is smarter then he looks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)' (further supported in SOD).

[Metastachydium]

We don't know that - that is merely what Redcloak indicates he believes, but as Roy but it 'Xykon is smarter then he looks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)' (further supported in SOD).

We know, however, that Xykon is helping him chase Gates (which doesn't help Xykon in any way) and the whole business will very definitely not give the Bone Man the world domination he claims to be after.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What Xykon is really after is a way to stave off boredom. Chasing after the Gates does that, plus gives him more people to kill, some of whom are tough enough to give him XP.

[Metastachydium]

What Xykon is really after is a way to stave off boredom. Chasing after the Gates does that, plus gives him more people to kill, some of whom are tough enough to give him XP.

Gobbotopia wasn't much fun for him, though, and he still decided to bear with Redcloak while the latter played civic leader under the guise of ”gathering useful intelligence”. Also, don't tell me Xykon does not hope the Plan, specifically, will benefit him in some way other activities where he could wreak just as much havoc or more could not. Xykon has a ridiculously short attention span, and yet he's been doing this Gate-hunt for more than thirty years.

[KorvinStarmast]

well done, references to two of my favs in a single post, Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and Joss Whedon's Firefly Pleasure to serve.

No, you are an angry brat playing with matches and risking setting the house on fire, and the Gods are landlords willing to kick you and everybody else out before you ever get the chance to. A closer description


I honestly feel the comic doesn't need to address why every possible course of action the characters would take except for the one they're taking would spell disaster, I feel that story and character is more important than satisfying fan theories. Two centavo bet that the author feels similarly.


Does she HAVE Diplomacy? I thought she just had Bluff. I was under the impression that her interaction with the airship repair facility was a Diplomacy check. I am happy to be corrected on that, however ...


Redcloak ... you idiot... there is nothing more dangerous than someone more powerful than you AND AFRAID OF YOU!!!! Nothing more dangerous to Redcloak, I suspect you mean there. Am I reading that right?

He literally ascended from the vengeance of goblinoids due to the betrayal and death when he was mortal. Kind of like Loki's point here? In Panel 7? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html)
I think Xykon would prefer a gig as the god of coffee. He'd probably get his sense of taste back and everything. But he's not likely to achieve that aim.

[Laserlight]

"I think that went well. He seems nice."

[Anitar]

At the time I was arguing with three or four big guns, who kept implying (or so it seemed to me) that Big Purple has reasons to believe he'll have a better chance of being allowed to shape a new world once the previous one is unmade by the other gods. I kept insisting that the others would still outnumber him many to one in that case and they would have all the means necessary, as well as quite a number of goodish reasons not to ”let him in”.

If he survives until the next world, and the other gods don't let him participate in creating it, he can just try anyway. Which would create another Snarl. Another four-color Snarl, if he interferes at the right time. That doesn't seem like a risk the others would be willing to take.

[Metastachydium]

If he survives until the next world, and the other gods don't let him participate in creating it, he can just try anyway. Which would create another Snarl. Another four-color Snarl, if he interferes at the right time. That doesn't seem like a risk the others would be willing to take.

Yeah, that's what they said, and I kept insisting that the other gods could outmaneuver him in that scenario just as easily as they can outmaneuver him now, but let's not get into the details and specifics (again), because I'm afraid that would greatly increase the risk of everyone else in the thread (as far as I can tell, my theories are not particularly popular) stoning me to death, or something.

[Joebob]

That was the case even back when he was still somewhat reasonable. That’s a big reason his whole « good of the goblin people » thing is hard to buy.

making the mother of all omelettes here, Fyr.
can't fret over every egg.

[OpticalPopcorn]

Sorry if someone's asked something like this before, I haven't kept on top of the thread.

Why, exactly, does TDO think he can control the snarl for long enough to threaten the other gods? Maybe I'm forgetting something, but the only options that make sense to me are:

-TDO doesn't actually fully understand how dangerous the snarl is. (This seems narratively unsatisfying at this point, so I doubt this is the answer.)

-TDO suspects he is better-equipped to fight the snarl than the other gods. It wouldn't surprise me if he's right, since the snarl doesn't have purple quiddity, which might make TDO more real than the snarl on some level; however, this implies he already understands that the other gods need him to control the snarl, which would severely complicate Durkon's plan and the current story arc...

[Anitar]

Why, exactly, does TDO think he can control the snarl for long enough to threaten the other gods? Maybe I'm forgetting something,

He doesn't. He fully believes it can't be controlled. Which is why the purpose of the ritual is to let him move one of the Gates, so the Snarl can be allowed to rampage in other gods' domains while Mr. Purple Godblin himself is somewhere far away and safe.

That is the threat he wants to use for leverage.

[danielxcutter]

On a completely different note, if you really want to dig into the subtext here, Redcloak asks the question

"What could irritate a God's eye?"

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

And more on the point for the typical readership perhaps is the sci-fi classic "The Mote in God's Eye" which I confess I haven't read, but glancing over the Wikipedia entry suggests it may make for interesting analysis.

One of the Godsmoot strips is called “The Vote in Gods’ Aye” or something like that, IIRC.

[mjasghar]

With regards to a purple pantheon - currently the pantheons have geographical influence
I can’t see a pantheon that would be allowed to take away from deities in those pantheons eg people saying Xykon being a god of death would take from Hel and Nergal plus whoever it is among the 12. Unless you’re suggesting he would only be that for goblinoids.
The current situation is an impasse of resentment etc.
So it just clicked for me. We know there’s another world with no sentients. And people have suggested the goblinoids could populate it. And then I thought: they’re called Gates not seals
So we could have the remaining Gate being used to take the goblinoids all to the other world and the dark one with them to sort themselves out until they are reconciled with stickworld. Trade could be set up via new gates. Meanwhile all work together to combat the Snarl permanently.

[Worldsong]

With regards to a purple pantheon - currently the pantheons have geographical influence
I can’t see a pantheon that would be allowed to take away from deities in those pantheons eg people saying Xykon being a god of death would take from Hel and Nergal plus whoever it is among the 12. Unless you’re suggesting he would only be that for goblinoids.
The current situation is an impasse of resentment etc.
So it just clicked for me. We know there’s another world with no sentients. And people have suggested the goblinoids could populate it. And then I thought: they’re called Gates not seals
So we could have the remaining Gate being used to take the goblinoids all to the other world and the dark one with them to sort themselves out until they are reconciled with stickworld. Trade could be set up via new gates. Meanwhile all work together to combat the Snarl permanently.

I believe that's been suggested before with as main issue to address that the Snarl appears to live in the same dimension as that world inside the rifts, and while it might turn out that the Snarl isn't a threat for the people living on that world (which would be intriguing but unlikely) as it stands the Snarl is only known as a barely sentient monster that destroys souls (which appears to be a wholly unique property), so nobody sane or insane would be willing to try living there.

[Jacky720]

But man, Durkon is really blowing it. Seems to me his best argument would be to try and get Redcloak to understand that the Dark One already has the leverage he's trying to get by using the Snarl. Like, put it in those exact terms. Tell him that the Dark One can get the other gods to listen to what he wants for his people now, before he even has to go further along with The Plan. At the very least, he could try to get TDO to go have a chat with Thor about it while Redcloak continues to search for the last gate.

Durkon is really bad at this.

I wholly agree with you on the "best argument", and I wholly agree with you that Durkon is not doing that. So I'll try and guess what exactly Durkon is going to do in the next strip or two. (Was the quote really needed? Eh.)

:durkon: Aye, lad, tha gods're afraid o' ye. But ye've gotta consider wha' kind o' people tha gods are. They aren't goin' ta just give inta whatever yer demands are, they're goin' ta blow up THA WORLD! Don't ye get tha?
:redcloak: And since when is that a problem for me?
:durkon: ...Wha, laddie? If'n tha gods blow up tha world, we all die! Me, ye, Xykon, yer god-
:redcloak: What?
:durkon: If'n tha gods blow up tha world, we all die.
:redcloak: Yes, yes, I got that, but you mentioned "yer god". How would that happen?
:durkon: Well, tha gods sorta need big soul reserves in their afterlives ta persist through tha-
:redcloak: You're lying.
:durkon: Wha?
:redcloak: You're lying. You can't kill a god, not with anything short of the You-Know-What. This is all part of your big plan- no, Thor's big plan- to screw over my god and my people. I still don't know how, but every part of what you just said fits too perfectly with this new ritual idea.
:durkon: Na, lad, ye gotta-
:redcloak: No! I can't believe that I believed you before. Now I'm going to give you just one chance- one! to leave here as fast as your little legs will carry you before I spend another spell slot on something more dangerous.
:durkon: Please!
:redcloak: Go. Away.

----

How's my accent?

[Rogar Demonblud]

More consistent than Durkon's.

Really, at that point Durkon should appeal to authority and suggest TDO ask Tiamat for more info on godly nutrition. Involving a non-Northern goddess should give RC pause.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes I'm sure coaching by the aforementioned characters could be a help in negotiating with a smart, rational, Evil opponent.

I'm just not sure how that helps when Durkon needs to talk to Redcloak.

Good one.


I'd say Redcloak is fairly rational for an Evil person. He's certainly not stupid, in the very least.

Rational means that your actions align with your goals. It doesn't tell you anything about what someone's goals are.

Evil has goals, it can be perfectly rational. Redcloak's stated goal is the good of the goblin people.

Ask [SPOILER] and the peaceful people of his village how that is going for them. Ask 10,000 hobgoblin warriors deliberately killed as part of an attack plan designed to get them killed how that is going for them.

Or consider that his "plan B" has always involved the destruction of the soul of every living goblin and his actual progress has all been toward plan B, A is as far away or worse than ever. But he's overjoyed that he's making progress on B.

Yep, he's really into helping goblins. Helping them suffer, helping them die, helping them become zombies, killing them himself, getting them killed by others. He helps them in lots of ways.

Red Cloak may be smart, but he is not rational.


So... Redcloak is ignoring what Durkon has said about the gods being willing to destroy the world rather than letting him carry on his plan to completion?

Is he so invested in THE PLAN that he would rather see the world destroyed and all goblins dead rather than stopping?

Being that invested is part of the plan. The willingness to sacrifice the world is a key part of the plan.


Really, at that point Durkon should appeal to authority and suggest TDO ask Tiamat for more info on godly nutrition. Involving a non-Northern goddess should give RC pause.

Why would Red Cloak believe Tiamat? Evil is not one big happy family. Red Cloak grew up in the South, there's no reason he should have anything against Thor in particular that he doesn't have against more or less all the gods.

[Worldsong]

Rational means that your actions align with your goals. It doesn't tell you anything about what someone's goals are.

Evil has goals, it can be perfectly rational. Redcloak's stated goal is the good of the goblin people.

Ask [SPOILER] and the peaceful people of his village how that is going for them. Ask 10,000 hobgoblin warriors deliberately killed as part of an attack plan designed to get them killed how that is going for them.

Or consider that his "plan B" has always involved the destruction of the soul of every living goblin and his actual progress has all been toward plan B, A is as far away or worse than ever. But he's overjoyed that he's making progress on B.

Yep, he's really into helping goblins. Helping them suffer, helping them die, helping them become zombies, killing them himself, getting them killed by others. He helps them in lots of ways.

Red Cloak may be smart, but he is not rational.

He did help create the first real goblinoid city state which has already been granted official recognition by several other city states. Which happened after he actively encouraged Xykon to go after Soon's Gate first.

Not that I don't agree that Redcloak is letting his devotion to The Plan cloud his judgement, but I feel like people are a bit quick to find some reason why Gobbotopia doesn't count. I've read a couple of claims that the founding of Gobbotopia was wholly accidental but to me it came across as Redcloak seeing an opportunity and taking it with both hands. Not just after they took over Azure City, but when he explained to Xykon that Soon's Gate was the best target.


Why would Red Cloak believe Tiamat? Evil is not one big happy family. Red Cloak grew up in the South, there's no reason he should have anything against Thor in particular that he doesn't have against more or less all the gods.

Well, there is the part where Thor admitted that he personally pushed hard for killing the Dark One immediately after his ascension... Tiamat was one of the gods who actually opposed slaying Big Purple.

Granted I don't think our Goblinoid God is going to listen to Tiamat either but it'd be incorrect to state that his opinion of Thor and Tiamat is virtually the same.

[factotum]

And more on the point for the typical readership perhaps is the sci-fi classic "The Mote in God's Eye" which I confess I haven't read, but glancing over the Wikipedia entry suggests it may make for interesting analysis.

I'm not sure why? In that novel the "mote" in question is a star system and the God's Eye is another star, there's not really any metaphysical stuff about it.

[Metastachydium]

Good one.

Evil has goals, it can be perfectly rational. Redcloak's stated goal is the good of the goblin people.

Ask [SPOILER] and the peaceful people of his village how that is going for them. Ask 10,000 hobgoblin warriors deliberately killed as part of an attack plan designed to get them killed how that is going for them.

Or consider that his "plan B" has always involved the destruction of the soul of every living goblin and his actual progress has all been toward plan B, A is as far away or worse than ever. But he's overjoyed that he's making progress on B.

Yep, he's really into helping goblins. Helping them suffer, helping them die, helping them become zombies, killing them himself, getting them killed by others. He helps them in lots of ways.

Red Cloak may be smart, but he is not rational.


Redcloak is at the very least somewhat unhinged, I've got to give you that.
That being said, I must emphasize thatpro primo, Right-Eye made the decision of recruiting Xykon (so Xykon entering the picture was no fault of Redcloak's own), and when Redcloak accidentally brought Xykon on Right-Eye's village, he went there specifically because Xykon was momentarily gone, and he considered quitting. He's not to blame for everything that happened there (Right-Eye's death is a different deal altogether, but then, that happened later).
Further, the attack plan you mentioned was certainly Redcloak's, but he realized he's making a mistake, changed course, went into frontline commander mode and led his men into a swift and painless (for them) victory, setting up a (mostly) hobgoblin colony on the ruins of Azure City (as Worldsong pointed out).
Plan B is indeed stupid, I would know, I've been arguing for the last couple of days that it makes very little sense even if Big Purple lives through the transition period.


I feel like people are a bit quick to find some reason why Gobbotopia doesn't count.
Yeah, pretty much. Also, people keep saying that with Gobbotopia on, Redcloak achieved everything he nominally wanted to achieve, which is equally wrong (it's a Schrödinger's city with that Rift above, and international recognition prevents precious few wars in real life; also, we don't know of any major nation other than Cliffport recognizing them, and they did it mostly to spite the elves).


Granted I don't think our Goblinoid God is going to listen to Tiamat either but it'd be incorrect to state that his opinion of Thor and Tiamat is virtually the same.

That, and the fact that Tiamat stikes me as a loose cannon with an agenda of her own. Good luck telling her what to do.
I'm telling that despite the fact that I personally believe that the voices might very well be chromatic dragons/half-dragons on her payroll (they have the size, the speech bubbles, and the ability to fly), and I would be less than surprised if the major ally the Order gets turned out to be the pair of lizards (who strike me as relatively high level casters) who raised the Oracle (who works for Tiamat, which would mean it stands to reason that a cleric regularly bringing him back from dead belongs to her church as well). It would also explain the whole restriction with ”for the first half of the book”, since I fully expect Team Tiamat to have goals that may clash with those of the good guys.

[BaronOfHell]

I don't know why, but this strip gave me a vibe similar to the dog sitting among flames, saying "this is fine".

Anyway, I noticed Durkon said the snarl keeps on breaking out of its prison, but RC didn't continue down this path.
Recall that Thor said the outsiders' reaction to being told of the many worlds is not a good one, and I won't be surprised if the IFCC is scrying on this meeting and do note what Durkon just said. Because we know the crayon story of what happens when the snarl escapes, there is no putting it back in the box and continue like nothing happened.

[Jacky720]

More consistent than Durkon's.

Really, at that point Durkon should appeal to authority and suggest TDO ask Tiamat for more info on godly nutrition. Involving a non-Northern goddess should give RC pause.

Too many "lad"s?

And yeah, there are a bunch of things Durkon should do but won't, both because of his character and for the sake of not finishing the book in 20 strips.


Why would Red Cloak believe Tiamat? Evil is not one big happy family. Red Cloak grew up in the South, there's no reason he should have anything against Thor in particular that he doesn't have against more or less all the gods.

Redcloak might feel that Durkon is biased toward Thor, being a cleric thereof. Tiamat is a third party.

[Witty Username]

Well Redcloak, you have your leverage against the gods that the plan called for, now what?

[Metastachydium]

Well Redcloak, you have your leverage against the gods that the plan called for, now what?

Nothing. Redcloak will continue to carry out the Plan until such a time as his god instructs him to stop (and some folks here will tell you that even that might not make him cease and desist).
The Plan is incredibly simple. It has two phases, a Redcloak phase and a Big Purple phase: (1) gain control of the high ground (through the Ritual$ that would be Redcloak's job) and (2) negotiate from said high ground (that's, quite naturally, not Redcloak's job). Big Purple will initiate negotiations when he sees that fit, and Redcloak has no say in that.
Incidentally, that's why I keep saying that Durkon and his employers should adopt a ”the Plan must go on” sort of strategy. The Dark One does want to negotiate, but he will not do so without his pretty little nuke in his pocket (because as Peelee rightly pointed out, he has reasons to be wary about negotiating with foes that outnumber and outgun him without means to keep them in line (that's how he died, after all)). So Thor & Co. should just let him have the Gate. If he is after what he claims to be after, he'll establish channels of communications shortly after that's done.

[Jacky720]

So Thor & Co. should just let him have the Gate. If he is after what he claims to be after, he'll establish channels of communications shortly after that's done.

Going out on a limb here- what if he isn't after what he claims to be after?

[Anitar]

Going out on a limb here- what if he isn't after what he claims to be after?

What else would he be after, if not goblin equality (or more likely supremacy)? Or, perhaps more to the point, how could he be? He's literally made out of the thoughts and feelings of goblins being unjustly treated like mindless targets by the other races.

[understatement]

What else would he be after, if not goblin equality (or more likely supremacy)? Or, perhaps more to the point, how could he be? He's literally made out of the thoughts and feelings of goblins being unjustly treated like mindless targets by the other races.


No, he's made out of revenge. He ascended not only because of the number of followers, but the passion they had in avenging in his death.

And if he's really out for goblin equality, I am sure there are a million better plans than risk destroying the world and unmaking everyone's souls.

[Metastachydium]

And if he's really out for goblin equality, I am sure there are a million better plans than risk destroying the world and unmaking everyone's souls.


Like what? (Putting aside the fact that the Plan, if executed as planned, does not involve destroying the world or unmaking anyone's soul.)

At any rate, if he's not honest about his intentions, then Thor & Durkon's current efforts are perfectly meaningless, as are Redcloak's, and personally, I cannot think of any satisfactory solution to this conundrum which does not involve this lot (I mean, say, Giggles and his epic level high priestess, Spoilerniece jumping out of a bush to save the day sounds a lot worse to me than a downer ending).

[Grey Watcher]

Like what?

Making absolutely sure Gobbotoppia stays intact would be a really good start.

[dancrilis]

And if he's really out for goblin equality, I am sure there are a million better plans than risk destroying the world and unmaking everyone's souls.


No there are not - very little could be more equal then 'everyone is dead and their souls are gone'.

[understatement]

Making absolutely sure Gobbotoppia stays intact would be a really good start.

Yeah, Gobbotopia should be first priority. Heck, Redcloak and his god seem to have a conflict of interests:


"Like the heroes, they are mostly in a holding pattern, frittering away their time on mindless fun. Unlike everyone else, though, this is intentional on the part of Redcloak: he wants to establish Azure City as a permanent goblin outpost, above and beyond the plan to use the Snarl."



"Most importantly, the idea needed to be put forth that just because Redcloak had, in fact, established a goblin state on the grave of Azure City did not mean that he was being let off the hook for carrying out his god’s evil plan for the Gates."



No there are not - very little could be more equal then 'everyone is dead and their souls are gone'.

Touché.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(it's a Schrödinger's city with that Rift above, and international recognition prevents precious few wars in real life; also, we don't know of any major nation other than Cliffport recognizing them, and they did it mostly to spite the elves).

They're trading with Greysky, given the crates we've seen. The problem is, we don't know who qualifies as a major nation. So let me add another plea that Rich goes back and finishes the StickWorld setting book, even if it isn't a game source.

[LadyEowyn]

They're trading with Greysky, given the crates we've seen. The problem is, we don't know who qualifies as a major nation. So let me add another plea that Rich goes back and finishes the StickWorld setting book, even if it isn't a game source.
Names like “zenith peak” and “passage path” don’t give the impression that Rich is terribly invested in the setting. I don’t think we’re going to get A World of Ice and Fire Stick.

From what he says in the commentaries, I get the impression that themes and characters are the top priority, followed by humour and plot, with setting behind all of those.

[Peelee]

Names like “zenith peak” and “passage path” don’t give the impression that Rich is terribly invested in the setting. I don’t think we’re going to get A World of Ice and Fire Stick.

From what he says in the commentaries, I get the impression that themes and characters are the top priority, followed by humour and plot, with setting behind all of those.
You would be correct!

You may not have noticed, but the OOTS world is the most ridiculous paper-thin placeholder for a setting possible while still getting a large-scale story told. It's intended to be Everysetting, to a degree; default D&D with no particularly wild deviations. Because the setting isn't important to me; the characters are. I don't care about nitpicky political details or cultural quirks or any of that stuff—I just need places they can go and do their stuff. If I want to write another story, I'll make another world—one that fits the tone of that story as well as the generic vanilla world I'm using in OOTS fits for a comedic satire of the fantasy genre.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Give me a break, I'm both new in the whole quoting business and unnecessarily lazy, okay?
Not sure how to solve the second problem, but a little tutorial for dealing with quotes: Highlight everything you don't want to quote, and his delete.


You answered a previous post of mine there, and I replied to that answer (statement no. 4). In my original post I (basically) asked the question ”why couldn't Big Purple have a say in what's happening in the universe” to which you said that it's because the other gods don't let him participate in the process of decision making. At the time I was arguing with three or four big guns, who kept implying (or so it seemed to me) that Big Purple has reasons to believe he'll have a better chance of being allowed to shape a new world once the previous one is unmade by the other gods. I kept insisting that the others would still outnumber him many to one in that case and they would have all the means necessary, as well as quite a number of goodish reasons not to ”let him in”. You've just got caught up in the crossfire. Sorry for the confusion and allow me to add that I hope my previous reply sounds less like a non sequitur as of right now.
Yeah, it makes more sense now. (This is part of why I try to be so compartmentalized with these replies.)


Strip no. 1170. Two gods enter Hel's domain uninvited, and neither seems to be welcome.
There's a difference between family members barging into your room and a stranger breaking into your house. It's not entirely clear how divine extraplanar realms work, but it seems likely that Hel's domain has a backdoor for gods she sometimes wants to let in that wouldn't work for TDO.

But fair enough. It's a fair assumption.


Well, Xykon is in fact unknowingly working towards Redcloak's stated goals, while Redcloak very much isn't doing what Xykon thinks he is doing.)
On the other hand, Redcloak is also dealing with all of Xykon's crap, from verbal abuse to cleaning up his messes.




With regards to a purple pantheon - currently the pantheons have geographical influence
I can’t see a pantheon that would be allowed to take away from deities in those pantheons eg people saying Xykon being a god of death would take from Hel and Nergal plus whoever it is among the 12. Unless you’re suggesting he would only be that for goblinoids.
The current situation is an impasse of resentment etc.
So it just clicked for me. We know there’s another world with no sentients. And people have suggested the goblinoids could populate it. And then I thought: they’re called Gates not seals
So we could have the remaining Gate being used to take the goblinoids all to the other world and the dark one with them to sort themselves out until they are reconciled with stickworld. Trade could be set up via new gates. Meanwhile all work together to combat the Snarl permanently.
There are two problems with that.

1. That world isn't very hospitable to guests. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)
2. There is a very simple solution. The Gods of the South have nominal influence over Gobbotopia, but no more de facto power than e.g. Thor or Marduk. Let the Dark One have influence over that part of the South.

Or we could just let Njord and other impatient gods design a new continent for them.



Incidentally, that's why I keep saying that Durkon and his employers should adopt a ”the Plan must go on” sort of strategy. The Dark One does want to negotiate, but he will not do so without his pretty little nuke in his pocket (because as Peelee rightly pointed out, he has reasons to be wary about negotiating with foes that outnumber and outgun him without means to keep them in line (that's how he died, after all)). So Thor & Co. should just let him have the Gate. If he is after what he claims to be after, he'll establish channels of communications shortly after that's done.
To us outsiders, that makes sense; it gets TDO to the negotiating table, and from there you can extract some kind of viable and mutually-beneficial compromise. But the gods are a bit more involved in this, not to mention biased towards themselves (duh) and against that upjumped campaign BBEG. They don't want TDO to come to the negotiating table in an advantageous position, let alone one which could spell doom for them all if they don't give him what he wants; they want to make sure they don't get eaten by the Snarl.

[charles]

This is early in the book. Durkon was never going to succeed at this stage. He’s setting the stage for Redcloak’s dramatic turnaround *late* in the book.

I dunno... I mean, there are other plans and side things in play which could send the story on all sorts of tangents.

Even if Durkon convinces Redcloak over to his side right now, that doesn't mean things are over. Tiamat's evil Trio are still up to something big, there's the world within the rift and the Monster in the Darkness together with all the gates they need to go around and fix if they get the means from Redcloak.

Even beyond the finale, there's a whole lot of individual character wind downs to fit in, such as the result's of Elan's plan for Ian Starshine to undo his father's empire/s and even the fates of Serini, Lirian and Dorukan (or at least, their souls).

Certainly, it's probably more likely he fails or that other things need to develop before Redcloak comes around to the idea, but I could easily see the unexpected turn that instead of a final, climactic battle around the last gate with Redcloak changing sides at the last minute to end Xykon that players start moving now and Xykon does something else to pose a world threat since even the audience know there's no chance of him using the gates.

[Metastachydium]

Making absolutely sure Gobbotoppia stays intact would be a really good start.

As long as goblinoids are seen as vile monsters inherently inferior to everyone else – well, good luck with that. Also, there's a guy called Xykon who's just as much as a threat as the goody-two-shoes.


They're trading with Greysky, given the crates we've seen. The problem is, we don't know who qualifies as a major nation. .

The crates could have been left behind by the fleeing Azurites (they were in something of a hurry), and if they weren't, well, Greysky City doesn't sound like a reliable ally to me. For some reason.
As for the rest, yeah, we have no idea who the other nations recognizing Gobbotopia might be, but the fact that Redcloak only namedrops Cliffport could be telling.



Not sure how to solve the second problem, but a little tutorial for dealing with quotes: Highlight everything you don't want to quote, and his delete.

Yeah, I figured that one out in the meantime.


(This is part of why I try to be so compartmentalized with these replies.)

I suppose it also helps with not scaring away folks with the big freakin' posts.


To us outsiders, that makes sense; it gets TDO to the negotiating table, and from there you can extract some kind of viable and mutually-beneficial compromise. But the gods are a bit more involved in this, not to mention biased towards themselves (duh) and against that upjumped campaign BBEG. They don't want TDO to come to the negotiating table in an advantageous position, let alone one which could spell doom for them all if they don't give him what he wants; they want to make sure they don't get eaten by the Snarl.

But then, if no party is willing to negotiate from anything less than a position of power, the deadlock will stay on 'till times end (literally). If one of the sides is going to compromise, I would expect that side to be the Good gods (who could exploit, say, the fact that while they are but a vocal minority, they have agents out on the field already, and the whole thing with the Godsmoot might help with tying the hands of possible detractors).

[Grey Watcher]

As long as goblinoids are seen as vile monsters inherently inferior to everyone else – well, good luck with that. Also, there's a guy called Xykon who's just as much as a threat as the goody-two-shoes.

Yeah but, "Those guys who took the gods themselves hostage" isn't exactly going to leave the goblins with a sterling reputation either.

Thousands of years of habit of seeing goblins as monsters isn't something you can just undo in one grand gesture. Getting other governments to treat them as equals in trade, politics, and whatnot is going to do a hell of a lot more to make goblins respectable than one act of terrorism, however large in scope. Yeah, it's going to take a long, long time to substantially shift attitudes to anything remotely resembling "respect as equals", but they've already made progress in getting Cliffport to trade with them, so it's not even like they don't have any progress to show for their efforts, and it hasn't even been a year.

As for Xykon, he's a reason to ABANDON the Plan, not keep pursuing it. Find something shiny to distract him, maybe even help some powerful hero types just outright take him out. Xykon's been more of a menace to the goblin people than just about any other single person for decades now, in no small part because Redcloak keeps him around, which in turn means that the most readily available people for him to abuse in his boredom are almost always goblins. As a character in Start of Darkness said (apologies for paraphrasing) "This alliance with Xykon is killing our bodies almost as fast as it's killing our spirit."

[Metastachydium]

Yeah but, "Those guys who took the gods themselves hostage" isn't exactly going to leave the goblins with a sterling reputation either.

Few mortals know about that.


Thousands of years of habit of seeing goblins as monsters isn't something you can just undo in one grand gesture. Getting other governments to treat them as equals in trade, politics, and whatnot is going to do a hell of a lot more to make goblins respectable than one act of terrorism, however large in scope.

We are talking about a universe where the gods can just inform their followers through clerics, paladins and whatnot that the rules have changed, and divine magic (let alone divine consensus) can help enforce the new status quo.


Yeah, it's going to take a long, long time to substantially shift attitudes to anything remotely resembling "respect as equals", but they've already made progress in getting Cliffport to trade with them, so it's not even like they don't have any progress to show for their efforts, and it hasn't even been a year.

If I remember correctly, Cliffport only trades with them to spite the elves and stay out of harm's (i.e. Xykon's) way (the army suffered massive casualties and is thinly outstretched: Gobbotopia is not just the former Azure City, but also the (by my calculations) huge hobgoblin settlement where they came from, and everything between the two).


Xykon's been more of a menace to the goblin people than just about any other single person for decades now, in no small part because Redcloak keeps him around, which in turn means that the most readily available people for him to abuse in his boredom are almost always goblins. As a character in Start of Darkness said (apologies for paraphrasing) "This alliance with Xykon is killing our bodies almost as fast as it's killing our spirit."

Hard to argue.


As for Xykon, he's a reason to ABANDON the Plan, not keep pursuing it. Find something shiny to distract him, maybe even help some powerful hero types just outright take him out.

Disagreed. One does not just shake off Xykon, and the whole business with the Gates is the one and only thing he managed to more or less focus on for more than half an hour (it's been more than 30 years since Right-Eye decided to hire him, after all). Also, he's the safest bet for an arcane caster that will not try to sabotage the Ritual as far as Redcloak knows.
As for the thing with the powerful hero types, I have expressed the sentiment before that I tend to agree with the idea of Redcloak teaming up with the Order to try and dispatch Xykon once the Ritual is performed.

[Grey Watcher]

Few mortals know about that.

Few mortals know now. Difficult to say just what the gods will tell their followers if The Plan actually works, but I doubt they'll have particularly nice things to say about The Dark One or goblins in general. Unless TDO manages to get such outrageous concessions as telling other gods what they can tell their mortal followers, The Plan is a PR disaster, and will only serve to shift the perception of goblins from "essentially a pest, that we get rid of like we would rats or something" to "serious threat we have a moral obligation to beat back wherever possible." (Now, the conquest of Azure City also ups the apparent threat of goblins, but they've shrewdly pivoted to trade and diplomatic engagements, which helps soften things a bit. It's a lot easier to change your image after conquering a country than it is after literally threatening the gods.)

Maybe the concrete gains The Dark One has in mind would be worth that kind of bad press, but I have trouble imagining what that would be. And it's certainly counterproductive to the goal of "getting other races not to treat goblins as kill-on-sight."


We are talking about a universe where the gods can just inform their followers through clerics, paladins and whatnot that the rules have changed, and divine magic (let alone divine consensus) can help enforce the new status quo.

Sure, because people can and will abandon long-held prejudices just because some authority figure told them racism was over. This might work to bring around the clerics, paladins, druids, and such themselves, but my impression is that most people aren't especially pious and, as such, the gods making some grand pronouncement isn't going to change most people's day-to-day behavior.


If I remember correctly, Cliffport only trades with them to spite the elves and stay out of harm's (i.e. Xykon's) way (the army suffered massive casualties and is thinly outstretched: Gobbotopia is not just the former Azure City, but also the (by my calculations) huge hobgoblin settlement where they came from, and everything between the two).

I was under the impression that the Azurite territories outside the city itself were largely farming villages and the occasional military outpost. Given the sheer size of the horde, it doesn't seem infeasible that they could hold onto a lot of it. Especially since they seem to have steamrolled most military fortifications (eg Blueriver Fort).


Disagreed. One does not just shake off Xykon, and the whole business with the Gates is the one and only thing he managed to more or less focus on for more than half an hour (it's been more than 30 years since Right-Eye decided to hire him, after all). Also, he's the safest bet for an arcane caster that will not try to sabotage the Ritual as far as Redcloak knows.
As for the thing with the powerful hero types, I have expressed the sentiment before that I tend to agree with the idea of Redcloak teaming up with the Order to try and dispatch Xykon once the Ritual is performed.

I suppose I implied it'd be easier than it would be, yeah, but I still say it's worth the effort to figure out how to be rid of him once and for all.

Really, I just can't imagine a remotely plausible version of events where The Plan is a better plan than focusing on Gobbotopia. Redcloak and The Dark One aren't holding onto it because it's in any way reasonable to do so (no matter what they tell themselves); they're ignoring better opportunities because of some combination of stubbornness and spite.

[Metastachydium]

Few mortals know now. Difficult to say just what the gods will tell their followers if The Plan actually works, but I doubt they'll have particularly nice things to say about The Dark One or goblins in general. Unless TDO manages to get such outrageous concessions as telling other gods what they can tell their mortal followers, The Plan is a PR disaster, and will only serve to shift the perception of goblins from "essentially a pest, that we get rid of like we would rats or something" to "serious threat we have a moral obligation to beat back wherever possible." (Now, the conquest of Azure City also ups the apparent threat of goblins, but they've shrewdly pivoted to trade and diplomatic engagements, which helps soften things a bit. It's a lot easier to change your image after conquering a country than it is after literally threatening the gods.)

Maybe the concrete gains The Dark One has in mind would be worth that kind of bad press, but I have trouble imagining what that would be. And it's certainly counterproductive to the goal of "getting other races not to treat goblins as kill-on-sight."

The gods can use that distinct possibility as a threat, just as Big Purple would use the Gate as a threat during negotiations. The two are pretty similar, really. If the gods choose to fire this nuke of their own, now, that's an open declaration of war, and with that, they've lost the Dark One. And, you know, they need him more than he knows, so actually doing this would be a lot more stupid move than it sounds. A great many gods would not be on board with the idea.




Sure, because people can and will abandon long-held prejudices just because some authority figure told them racism was over. This might work to bring around the clerics, paladins, druids, and such themselves, but my impression is that most people aren't especially pious and, as such, the gods making some grand pronouncement isn't going to change most people's day-to-day behavior.

Well, if said authority figures can channel actual divine power, (among other things) they heal the sick and the wounded, they decide who stays dead and who doesn't and they often have significant political influence as such... Their word and their decrees might pack more punch than you imply.




I was under the impression that the Azurite territories outside the city itself were largely farming villages and the occasional military outpost. Given the sheer size of the horde, it doesn't seem infeasible that they could hold onto a lot of it. Especially since they seem to have steamrolled most military fortifications (eg Blueriver Fort).

It's not just the size, but also the shape and distribution of strategically important objects. It's a long (long enough that it takes the army several days to march from one end to the other) thin stretch of land (a very inconvenient shape for a country) with a large city on one end, an even larger one on the other and not much where they could entrench themselves between the two. They only have some 20000 soldiers left to hold onto it, and Azure City alone could mobilise half that in just a few days. If their neighbours ever realise that without Xykon and Redcloak they are not much of a threat in their current state and they decide to gang up on Gobbotopia, they are toast.




I suppose I implied it'd be easier than it would be, yeah, but I still say it's worth the effort to figure out how to be rid of him once and for all.

Absolutely. He must go. The only thing I don't agree with is your proposed timing.


Really, I just can't imagine a remotely plausible version of events where The Plan is a better plan than focusing on Gobbotopia. Redcloak and The Dark One aren't holding onto it because it's in any way reasonable to do so (no matter what they tell themselves); they're ignoring better opportunities because of some combination of stubbornness and spite.

Putting aside everything pertaining to this problem that I said above (Gobbotopia being vulnerable, Xykon gretaly boosting its capabilities of explicitly or implicitly intimidating others etc.), Gobbotopia's capital is locked in a staring contest with the Snarl itself. The Snarl cannot be defeated without all the pantheons and Big Purple cooperating, and if he simply enters a deal where it's obvious that he needs the gods more than they need him (everyone needs the Snarl locked away, but for him it's more urgent), they'll just push him around. He's also proud and paranoid.The Plan can guarantee (as far as he knows) that the gods will listen when he speaks. Gobbotopia on the other hand decreases his leverage, if anything, since it's a big annoying mote, so to say, in the collective eyes of the Twelwe (up to and including Rat).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which is why you get Tiamat involved so she can start to bring around enough of the Western pantheon to get a majority there. Two pantheons to one in the Godsmoot, measure passes.

[Metastachydium]

Which is why you get Tiamat involved so she can start to bring around enough of the Western pantheon to get a majority there. Two pantheons to one in the Godsmoot, measure passes.

(You might know that I'm all about Team Tiamat, but please clarify.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

We've seen how pna-pantheon issues are handled. Call a Godsmoot, each pantheon argues it out amongst themselves, vote and the results are posted as a bloc. It doesn't matter if the Southern pantheon is against all things goblin, if you can get the Northern and Western pantheons to vote for the deal they win the election two votes to one.

[Metastachydium]

We've seen how pna-pantheon issues are handled. Call a Godsmoot, each pantheon argues it out amongst themselves, vote and the results are posted as a bloc. It doesn't matter if the Southern pantheon is against all things goblin, if you can get the Northern and Western pantheons to vote for the deal they win the election two votes to one.

That might not be quite as simple as that. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

[Grey Watcher]

Well, if said authority figures can channel actual divine power, (among other things) they heal the sick and the wounded, they decide who stays dead and who doesn't and they often have significant political influence as such... Their word and their decrees might pack more punch than you imply.

We've got people in the comic who personally know channelers of divine magic whose attitude towards the godly authority ranges from apathetic (Roy) to outright hostility (Girard). So it's not speculation, it's demonstrable fact that divine miracles don't pack the rhetorical punch someone from our world might expect.

[Metastachydium]

We've got people in the comic who personally know channelers of divine magic whose attitude towards the godly authority ranges from apathetic (Roy) to outright hostility (Girard). So it's not speculation, it's demonstrable fact that divine miracles don't pack the rhetorical punch someone from our world might expect.

True, but what I'm talking about is not something merely rhetorical. Roy, for instance, tends to look a lot less dissmissive of the idea that the world actually needs the gods and especially their power whenever he actually needs a cleric (say, when he was dead or when he was desperately running from temple to temple in Tinkertown). If clerics start refusing to do their job or losing their powers for defying their employers, that will be felt.
(Also, Girard was a freak.)

[RatElemental]

I wonder if ur priests exist in stickworld, and what would happen if a majority of mortals (or even just a large enough minority of them) decided to get all their clerical mojo that way and nuts to the gods.

Or for an alternative that we do know exists, nontheistic clerics like the creed of stone.

[Metastachydium]

Or for an alternative that we do know exists, nontheistic clerics like the creed of stone.

I don't know, it sounds somewhat unreliable from what the Giant told about it. Anyhow, the orc tribe (the only community that certainly tried both approaches that we know of), for instance, seems to (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) prefer pretty much any form of theistic workship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html) to that.

(Also, the gods created a certain big swirly problem the first time they created a worl, and Elemental Earth won't make that go away.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Tiamat's evil Trio are still up to something big—
Why do people keep talking about the IFCC as if they're puppets of Tiamat?

They explicitly say they lack higher sponsors, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html) which wouldn't mean much if we had any evidence that they weren't the head honchos in their organization...but we don't. And Tiamat specifically is ridiculous. Look at their one interaction with Tiamat. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) "We had to do it to defeat a common enemy" and "How about we kill five good dragons for every evil one we destroyed today," not "Here is how our actions helped the goal you set us" or "Please give me another chance". That's how you talk with the CEO of a larger competing corporation, not your own boss!

Where did this idea come from, and why did it stick around?



But then, if no party is willing to negotiate from anything less than a position of power, the deadlock will stay on 'till times end (literally).
That is the problem, yes. Both sides feel they have more to lose by negotiating from an inferior position than not negotiating at all (the main three pantheons because they can survive and try again next world, TDO because he doesn't realize starving to death is a likely outcome).



We are talking about a universe where the gods can just inform their followers through clerics, paladins and whatnot that the rules have changed, and divine magic (let alone divine consensus) can help enforce the new status quo.
Even assuming that there is divine consensus, what the heck does that change? Even divinely-ordained servants of the gods can go against their desires, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) after all.
Unfortunately, we don't see a lot of divine decrees in the comic (maybe Odin's one prophecy about Durkon counts?), so we need to draw on real-world human nature to draw further conclusions...but that's probably against vague forum rules. So I'm just going to wave vaguely in the direction of the argument I'd make if I hadn't been burned by stumbling too close to that line so many times and ask how effective you think a divine decree would be.
Maybe it would be safer to make such an argument by bringing up examples of secular ideological leaders who failed to convince their followers to all change their minds at once? Wait, no, that's politics.



True, but what I'm talking about is not something merely rhetorical. Roy, for instance, tends to look a lot less dissmissive of the idea that the world actually needs the gods and especially their power whenever he actually needs a cleric (say, when he was dead or when he was desperately running from temple to temple in Tinkertown). If clerics start refusing to do their job or losing their powers for defying their employers, that will be felt.
(Also, Girard was a freak.)
Re: Girard: Citation needed.
Re: Everything else: So, you're proposing that not only should the existing gods officially raise TDO to pantheon-equal status, they should start stripping power from clerics who act against goblinoids. Wow, such minor concessions, I wonder why this hasn't been offered.

It's not clear how hard a cleric needs to screw up before the gods strip them of power, but they're clearly not doing it for mere theopolitical reasons.



I don't know, it sounds somewhat unreliable from what the Giant told about it.
I can't find the forum post where Rich explains how all of it works, but it doesn't sound "unreliable" so much as "distributed". In other words, it's unreliable in the same way that distributed cloud storage is, except that the only alternative is a single big server.


Anyhow, the orc tribe (the only community that certainly tried both approaches that we know of), for instance, seems to (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) prefer pretty much any form of theistic workship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html) to that.
Their logic is "Worshiping vague things doesn't feel good" and "We don't have to decide what is right and wrong if we have a talking puppet". Also, they're worshiping a hand puppet and listening to whoever sticks their hand into the puppet and pretends to speak for it. We have to consider the possibility that their theological views aren't meant to be taken as representative of the typical Stickworlder. Especially since we have evidence of non-orcs being hostile to the idea of puppet worship (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html).


(Also, the gods created a certain big swirly problem the first time they created a worl, and Elemental Earth won't make that go away.)
If mortal druids and wizards can fix the problem, why couldn't elementals? (And yes it's not a permanent fix



If I remember correctly, Cliffport only trades with them to spite the elves and stay out of harm's (i.e. Xykon's) way (the army suffered massive casualties and is thinly outstretched: Gobbotopia is not just the former Azure City, but also the (by my calculations) huge hobgoblin settlement where they came from, and everything between the two).
"Really? We finally got Cliffport?"
"They have a long-standing trade war with the elves. Once they attacked, Cliffport decided it was best to influence our position on slavery through economic engagement." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)
It sounds like spiting the elves and not pissing of Xykon weren't not considerations, but they certainly weren't the only reasons.
The politics involved are vague, but it sounds like there's more involved than "We don't like elves". After all, at the risk of violating the politics rule*, "trade wars" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_war) are less about spite and more about interfering with each others' economy. That makes it sounds less like "Screw you, elves!" and more like "These guys are sticking around, might be a good idea to trade with them". Which would also explain why the other sixteen (unnamed) nations decided to stick around; after all, Cliffport was the only one Hobgoblin Cleric #1 was surprised to hear joined, indicating that most or all of the others joined before the recent elf incident.

*Not my fault, the comic brought politics into the comic.


Disagreed. One does not just shake off Xykon, and the whole business with the Gates is the one and only thing he managed to more or less focus on for more than half an hour.
Not strictly true, but the exceptions are things that either he chose himself. (While Reanimated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Gladiators (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) was set up in less than half an hour, it wasn't complete when we last saw it.)

The core problem that we can't reliably distract Xykon is still there, of course. I'm just in a pedantic mood.



Well, if said authority figures can channel actual divine power, (among other things) they heal the sick and the wounded, they decide who stays dead and who doesn't and they often have significant political influence as such... Their word and their decrees might pack more punch than you imply.
Why? Real-world religious and ideological figures usually have significant political influence, and while no real figure has possessed such miraculous powers...
1. ...many of them have convinced their followers that they do, one way or another. Why does it matter how successful they are at backing these claims up, if the people still believe them?
2. ...modern leaders can do things that the OotSverse residents would consider as miraculous as we consider OotSverse religious leaders' spells to be. Does this increase how fervent


It's not just the size, but also the shape and distribution of strategically important objects. It's a long (long enough that it takes the army several days to march from one end to the other) thin stretch of land (a very inconvenient shape for a country) with a large city on one end, an even larger one on the other and not much where they could entrench themselves between the two.
The bolded part is wrong. While searching for a citation for a later statement, I came across a bunch of information about the Azurite nation

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/2/25/Azure_City_Area.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20170225012711
This map is from War and XPs, as is most of the other information discussed below.

Robinsegg and Blueriver Fort are both Azurite territories. Given that Hinjo et al didn't flee to Robinsegg or the couple of unnamed coastal towns, it's safe to assume that Redcloak didn't let them be and conquered all Azurite territories. (Tell me he doesn't sound like a completionist.)

But even if we accept that, the rest is...questionable. "Several days' march" isn't that big of a country even for pre-automobile times, and having big cities on each "end" of the country isn't a strategic vulnerability...though whether the hobgoblin camp counts as a "big city" is the biggest question of all, since Jirix refers to it as a village (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).


They only have some 20000 soldiers left to hold onto it, and Azure City alone could mobilise half that in just a few days. If their neighbours ever realise that without Xykon and Redcloak they are not much of a threat in their current state and they decide to gang up on Gobbotopia, they are toast.
Which is why TDO is confident that Jirix's battles will be of logistics, diplomacy, and intrigue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html).

Sure, Azure City could mobilize 10,000 soldiers in a few days. They're also the largest city in the Southern Lands, and the 10k soldiers is their militia after the militarization which presumably happened during a couple generations when the city was literally protecting the fabric of reality. (There were some pretty serious changes made to the Azurite government post-Soon, what with them getting a new castle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) reaching high above any building in the original city (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).)
In short: By all appearances, everyone in the Southern Lands has fewer people and less reason to train soldiers than Azure City did. Maybe they could raise more than twice the number of soldiers that Azure City has, but a slight numerical advantage wouldn't overcome the advantage provided by Azure City's walls, especially when you account for how fragmented command would be. (Turning to real-world history, that was a major problem with the Crusades. There was a nominal commander, but most crusaders were loyal to princes and lords from wherever they came from, and this caused issues—up to and including crusaders fighting each other, locking each other out of occupied towns to be ambushed by enemies, and abandoning the Crusade en masse.)

TL;DR: TDO isn't worried about military battles. I wouldn't be, either.



...Gobbotopia's capital is locked in a staring contest with the Snarl itself. The Snarl cannot be defeated without all the pantheons and Big Purple cooperating, and if he simply enters a deal where it's obvious that he needs the gods more than they need him (everyone needs the Snarl locked away, but for him it's more urgent)...
See, that's not true. The rift's growth is slowing, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) and it hasn't done anything to the world outside the rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). Maybe that's changed since gate #4 got destroyed, but there's nothing suggesting that's the case (no sign that Dorukan or Lirian's gates have increased in size, no sign that Gobbotopia has been dealing with Snarl problems since then, etc), which means that the only reason to bring that possibility up is to point out the lack of evidence for it.