OOTS #1210 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[rredmond]

Thor's Might! :D

[vonBoomslang]

"Made my saving throw."

[edit] nuts, not enough posts to make a link. Strip #456, people.

[Babale]

Redcloak gets owned by two clerics of Thor in rapid succession! Hahahaha!

[dancrilis]

Interesting - thus begins the discussion on how Implosion works within the universe of The Order of the Stick.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Na as many as ye"

Man, when Durkon abandons diplomatic politeness, he cuts deep

Grey Wolf

[Dragonus45]

Interesting way of representing what I assumed was Durkon making multiple saves, since the effect can repeat every round till it runs out. RC once again shows he doesn't really consider any path but the one he is committed to an option, he is just in too deep. Also.

"Na as many as ye" is dis of the year.

[Synesthesy]

Just refreshed the page :O

[vonBoomslang]

Interesting - thus begins the discussion on how Implosion works within the universe of The Order of the Stick.

Seems there's some sort of damage rider on the "Fort Negates"


Interesting way of representing what I assumed was Durkon making multiple saves, since the effect can repeat every round till it runs out. RC once again shows he doesn't really consider any path but the one he is committed to an option, he is just in too deep. Also.

"Na as many as ye" is dis of the year.

Implosion, as it works in 3.5, can only target a creature once.

[Windscion]

Chekov's Minrah FTW.
Yeah, RC didn't like being called on his compromises, did he?

[AstralFire]

Sticky pickle. They need to get out of there fast.

[AvatarVecna]

"Na as many as ye"

Man, when Durkon abandons diplomatic politeness, he cuts deep

Grey Wolf

You can almost see Right-Eye reflected in Redcloak's vision.

[Schroeswald]

"Na as many as ye" is just the best burn Durkon could have ever done.

Also, Minrah for the win!

[dancrilis]

Seperate to my first thought above - that does not seem subtle, and while Redcloak might be able to deal with both of them on his own a lack of subtlety is likely not the best idea given the other threats around (a bugbear village, a monster in the darkness and lets not forget an Epic Lich - this could go from bad to worse quickly).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, that went as well as one might have hoped for. At least the offer is on the table, and can start to eat away at what little soul RC has left. All in all, a good opening gambit to the negotiations.

Grey Wolf

[Sylian]

That's a level 5 spell*, so I guess Minrah is at least a level 9 Cleric, huh? And multiclassed with Fighter? So she's probably a bit higher level than we previously thought.

*Assuming it's Righteous Might, which seems likely.

[Babale]

Interesting way of representing what I assumed was Durkon making multiple saves, since the effect can repeat every round till it runs out. RC once again shows he doesn't really consider any path but the one he is committed to an option, he is just in too deep. Also.

"Na as many as ye" is dis of the year.

By the rules though once you make your save you cannot be targeted by that casting of Implosion again -- but the rules of the game are secondary to the rules of drama (or tertiary to the rules of comedy too!)

So Minrah was flying around in windwalk form with Durkon's hammer just in case, he? Good work, Durkon -- always have a backup plan!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Seperate to my first thought above - that does not seem subtle, and while Redcloak might be able to deal with both of them on his own a lack of subtlety is likely not the best idea given the other threats around (a bugbear village, a monster in the darkness and lets not forget an Epic Lich - this could go from bad to worse quickly).

I'd imagine they're just about to turn back into smoke and leave, though. This is not a battle Minrah or Durkon want to fight, nor do they have to.

GW

[facw]

So is she using Durkon's (Thor's) hammer, but without the gloves?

[Windscion]

That's a level 5 spell*, so I guess Minrah is at least a level 9 Cleric, huh? And multiclassed with Fighter? So she's probably a bit higher level than we previously thought.

*Assuming it's Righteous Might, which seems likely.

Maybe. Anyone recall the rules for Durkon to gift Minrah with the ability to cast a level 5 spell?
Nevermind, limited to level 2 spells.
Also: Cannot transfer transmutation spells.

[02youeng]

Well, he didn't bring any weapons. Somedwarf had to hang onto Mjolnir...

[Dragonus45]

Seems there's some sort of damage rider on the "Fort Negates"
Implosion, as it works in 3.5, can only target a creature once.

I wonder if rich didn't mentally wander over to the PF version. That one has a damage rider on it. Or it's just the spell working a bit differently in universe because Rich either doesn't care or didn't remember because it's his comic and it works like how he says it does anyways. I look forward to 15 pages of argument on the matter.

[morikahn]

So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed. I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

[Frozenstep]

Maybe. Anyone recall the rules for Durkon to gift Minrah with the ability to cast a level 5 spell?

Could it a spell scroll?

[Traab]

Im not sure what hit redcloak harder, thors might or durkons response! Either way, he needs a lot of healing right now.

[dancrilis]

I'd imagine they're just about to turn back into smoke and leave, though. This is not a battle Minrah or Durkon want to fight, nor do they have to.

GW

That however takes five turns to do (unless the Giant decided that it doesn't) - 30 seconds is sometimes a very long time.

[El Dorado]

Amazing! All of this happened over the course of a full round. Talking (monologuing?) is a free action. :smallwink:

[Ghosty]

Odd. Not how it should've played out according to the SRD. And how long does Implosion take to kill something? Durkon looked like he was writhing in pain for some time. Maybe an entire round?

I also wonder how much damage he took? He's not as busted up as Nale, post-Harm, but he looks pretty beat up.

Sure looked better as a story this way though. Yay Minrah!

[Alias]

That's a level 5 spell*, so I guess Minrah is at least a level 9 Cleric, huh? And multiclassed with Fighter? So she's probably a bit higher level than we previously thought.

*Assuming it's Righteous Might, which seems likely.

3.5 actually had rules for NPC companions. If Rich is following them (unlikely, but possible) she's 1 level lower than the lowest level member of the party. If we presume the party is 16th-18th that would put her at 15th level.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

Odin's prophecy about Durkon has already become true (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html).


That however takes five turns to do (unless the Giant decided that it doesn't) - 30 seconds is sometimes a very long time.

Minrah changed form within a couple of castings of implosion, so I think the 30 second rule is not in effect.

Grey Wolf

[facw]

3.5 actually had rules for NPC companions. If Rich is following them (unlikely, but possible) she's 1 level lower than the lowest level member of the party. If we presume the party is 16th-18th that would put her at 15th level.
I could buy that level, but from her comments before, I'd expect she has more levels in fighter than in cleric. I forget how all this stuff works but is it possible she gets the spell at a lower level due to her domain choices or something?

[Bartok]

It really looks like Durkon forgot to mention that the Dark One won't survive the wait between the destruction of this world and the creation of the next :smallfrown:

[Alias]

I could buy that level, but from her comments before, I'd expect she has more levels in fighter than in cleric. I forget how all this stuff works but is it possible she gets the spell at a lower level due to her domain choices or something?

Possible. I believe Righteous Might was 4th level on the War domain but I don't have the books in front of me and it's been a long time.

[dancrilis]

Odd. Not how it should've played out according to the SRD. And how long does Implosion take to kill something? Durkon looked like he was writhing in pain for some time. Maybe an entire round?

I also wonder how much damage he took? He's not as busted up as Nale, post-Harm, but he looks pretty beat up.

Sure looked better as a story this way though. Yay Minrah!

I suspect it was multiple rounds.
1209 - round 1: Redcloack casts, Minrah begins to move in.
1210 (panel 2) round 2: Second save from Implosion, Minrah moving in.
1210 (panel 5 onwards) round 3: Third save from Implosion, Minrah moves in (possible Durkon dismisses Wind Walk on her).



Minrah changed form within a couple of castings of implosion, so I think the 30 second rule is not in effect.

Possible - we don't really know - but even if it were in affect Redcloak could just dispel magic, and even if he can't calling in Xykon at this point might be wise.

[Schroeswald]

3.5 actually had rules for NPC companions. If Rich is following them (unlikely, but possible) she's 1 level lower than the lowest level member of the party. If we presume the party is 16th-18th that would put her at 15th level.

That's not the level of the party, see the C&LG thread but Durkon is the lowest level at 13 and Haley and V are the highest at 16.

[Sylian]

3.5 actually had rules for NPC companions. If Rich is following them (unlikely, but possible) she's 1 level lower than the lowest level member of the party. If we presume the party is 16th-18th that would put her at 15th level.Highly unlikely, since Durkon would need the Leadership feat, or someone else in the party. She's probably just an ally to the party, not a cohort. Durkon is level 13 most likely (lost two levels, can cast level 7 spells, probably couldn't cast level 9 spells), so Minrah would be 12 in that case. If I were to guess I'd guess maybe Fighter 2/Cleric 9, or something like that. A respectable level 11 character. Maybe one or two more Fighter levels?

[Alias]

It really looks like Durkon forgot to mention that the Dark One won't survive the wait between the destruction of this world and the creation of the next :smallfrown:

Redcloak wouldn't believe that - it doesn't fit in with his world view. Mentioning it would just piss him off (more).

[Windscion]

I could buy that level, but from her comments before, I'd expect she has more levels in fighter than in cleric. I forget how all this stuff works but is it possible she gets the spell at a lower level due to her domain choices or something?

Not per SRD -- only listed domain w/ RM is Strength, and only as a 5th level spell. But that doesn't include splatbooks, &c.
Maybe the hammer grants a daily ability?
Alias: You are thinking of Divine Might (War lvl 4) which doesn't grant growth.

[Alias]

Highly unlikely, since Durkon would need the Leadership feat, or someone else in the party. She's probably just an ally to the party, not a cohort. Durkon is level 13 most likely (lost two levels, can cast level 7 spells, probably couldn't cast level 9 spells), so Minrah would be 12 in that case. If I were to guess I'd guess maybe Fighter 2/Cleric 9, or something like that. A respectable level 11 character. Maybe one or two more Fighter levels?

Leadership guarantees a companion - the DM can reward one on a whim at will and the guidelines remain the same. The point of the guideline is that an NPC travelling with the party should never overshadow any member of the party.

[Cicciograna]

It really looks like Durkon forgot to mention that the Dark One won't survive the wait between the destruction of this world and the creation of the next :smallfrown:

At this point it doesn't really matter, and probably wouldn't have mattered even earlier. I don't really see a cleric of some higher power reacting positively to somebody telling him/her "Hey, your god is about to die!". Redcloak would have simply not believed Durkon.

[Gray Mage]

So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed. I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

Well, it already has. Not only in SoD, but also by RC to Tsukiko and to Durkon by Thor just recently.

On another note, the most simple answer that RC targeted Durkon with the intent to kill proved true, as expected. And Durkon just dealt a ton of morale damage to RC, he definitevely felt that one.

[Ramza00]

Well if Durkon and Minrah survive this, they will probably level up getting closer to the level of the rest of the party.

[Zhorn]

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe! You now have my everlasting vote for 'best girl'!

Also

:durkon: "Na as many as ye"
Redcloak's never recovering from that.

[dancrilis]

On another note, the most simple answer that RC targeted Durkon with the intent to kill proved true, as expected. And Durkon just dealt a ton of morale damage to RC, he definitevely felt that one.

I am half convinced that Redcloak targeted him because he dared to say "help us save tha goblins" ... which I could see just annoying Redcloak on many, many levels.

[Dausuul]

Odd. Not how it should've played out according to the SRD.
Not necessarily. If you assume that the casting of implosion is actually spread out over the entire strip, and Durkon is still in the process of making his first saving throw throughout, it works. Minrah interrupts Redcloak's spellcasting and causes the spell to fizzle (he was not casting defensively since he didn't think he needed to).

[WindStruck]

Well, that went as well as one might have hoped for. At least the offer is on the table, and can start to eat away at what little soul RC has left. All in all, a good opening gambit to the negotiations.

Grey Wolf

Speaking of tables, one little touch I noticed is that the table that was shaped was also literally smashed to pieces.

Probably symbolic, more than anything, that peace won't be an option.

[Gray Mage]

I am half convinced that Redcloak targeted him because he dared to say "help us save tha goblins" ... which I could see just annoying Redcloak on many, many levels.

Eh, his facial expression at the end of the last strip didn't read to me as annoyed. He looked pensive/contemplating it even right before. Still think it was to remove the temptation of deviating from the plan, but we may not have confirmation of his motives until some strips/the book is out and we can see Rich's commentary.

"No as many as ye" really affected him, though.

[mjasghar]

Remember speaking is a free action so in Oots World that entire conversation took place over 1 round

[ericgrau]

Is that Thor's hammer or just some other hammer?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not per SRD -- only listed domain w/ RM is Strength, and only as a 5th level spell. But that doesn't include splatbooks, &c.
Maybe the hammer grants a daily ability?
Alias: You are thinking of Divine Might (War lvl 4) which doesn't grant growth.

Divine Power doesn't make you grow. It could, however, be Enlarge Person, from Strength domain lvl 1. But that doesn't explain Thor's name being involved in the casting.


Is that Thor's hammer or just some other hammer?
The thunderbolt design matches that of the hammer Durkon found in Thor's statue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html), but that wasn't Thor's hammer either. Thor has his hammer.

GW

[Reboot]

Not necessarily. If you assume that the casting of implosion is actually spread out over the entire strip, and Durkon is still in the process of making his first saving throw throughout, it works. Minrah interrupts Redcloak's spellcasting and causes the spell to fizzle (he was not casting defensively since he didn't think he needed to).
Thing is, by the book Implosion is straight Save-or-Die (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm). You take no damage, or die. Nothing in-between, yet Durkon has damage marks.

i.e., Rich clearly isn't following the SRD version cleanly.

[Fyraltari]

Oh will you look at that, Redcloak was indeed attacking Durkon, who could have guessed that?

[Babale]

Divine Power doesn't make you grow. It could, however, be Enlarge Person, from Strength domain lvl 1. But that doesn't explain Thor's name being involved in the casting.


The thunderbolt design matches that of the Hammer Durkon found in Thor's statue, but that wasn't Thor's hammer either. Thor has his hammer.

GW

Thor's Lightning is just Lightning Bolt from the Air Domain, so it could be Enlarge Person with a thematic twist -- but I doubt it, simplest explanation is that she can cast a 5th level spell.

[Reboot]

Remember speaking is a free action so in Oots World that entire conversation took place over 1 round
Not if you are, in fact, particuarly verbose in your eloqutionary statements on whatever matter you intend to enlighten your conversee on. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html)

[ericgrau]

The thunderbolt design matches that of the Hammer Durkon found in Thor's statue, but that wasn't Thor's hammer either. Thor has his hammer.

GW
Right, so we'll call it the hammer in Thor's statue, or Hits. Assuming this is Hits, granting Thor's Might and other abilities wouldn't be at all unusual, before people get too far about speculating about the wielder's level.

[Psyren]

Guys, it's a spell that tries to crush you into a singularity. Even if a successful save doesn't cause any mechanical hit point loss, there's no rule stopping a bit of cosmetic blood/excruciating pain. Rule of Drama.

[deworde]

I have now joined the Cult of Shaleshoe. We have pamphlets, enthusiasm, and a stubborn unwillingness to accept victory at cost.

[kingcheesepants]

I was expecting Durkon to make his save and I was expecting there to be some backup plan involving Minrah. But I did not expect her to come smashing in with the magic hammer like that. Well played.

[Dragonus45]

Oh will you look at that, Redcloak was indeed attacking Durkon, who could have guessed that?

Literally anyone and everyone! Or at least they should have.

[Sesharan]

Gotta say, it was kind of satisfying to have someone call out Redcloak on the number of goblins he's effectively killed. I know it's happened before, but he very much needs frequent reminders on that score.

Also, re: the Implosion delay: to me, Redcloak saying "I am curious about one thing before you implode" makes it sound like he was deliberately stretching out the effect in order to get in that last question.

[Ghosty]

Not necessarily. If you assume that the casting of implosion is actually spread out over the entire strip, and Durkon is still in the process of making his first saving throw throughout, it works. Minrah interrupts Redcloak's spellcasting and causes the spell to fizzle (he was not casting defensively since he didn't think he needed to).

I had thought the spell was save or die, and if saved, then no damage? If interrupted while casting, no need to even save.

The Giant drew a scene that didn't behave that way. It looks better, plays better, but as the story and actions depart from the rules of D&D more and more, the story gets tougher to predict. At least for me.

[Peelee]

I wonder if rich didn't mentally wander over to the PF version. That one has a damage rider on it. Or it's just the spell working a bit differently in universe because Rich either doesn't care or didn't remember because it's his comic and it works like how he says it does anyways. I look forward to 15 pages of argument on the matter.
The latter.

Hey, I saved 13 pages! :smalltongue:

Guys, it's a spell that tries to crush you into a singularity. Even if a successful save doesn't cause any mechanical hit point loss, there's no rule stopping a bit of cosmetic blood/excruciating pain. Rule of Drama.
Seconded.

Also not getting all the "saving throws" comments when we see the spell explicitly fizzle. By all appearances, Durkon lived because Minrah interrupted the spell, despite how it would work in the SRD.

[Fyraltari]

Go Team Cleric, go!

Redcloak just took a severe burning and got violently crushed. He’s going to need a rest, now.

I remain amazed by The Giant’s ability to surprise us with such simple tactics. Nobody but nobody had guessed « Thor’s might while dropping out of Wind Walk in the air. »
I wonder what’s the bonus for a falling attack like that.

Now to get the hell out of there before Xykon shows up.


So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed. I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).
Have you not read SoD? Because we know exactly what Redcloak’s Plan is.

Right, so we'll call it the hammer in Thor's statue, or Hits. Assuming this is Hits, granting Thor's Might and other abilities wouldn't be at all unusual, before people get too far about speculating about the wielder's level.
Ahem, it’s called the Hammer of Loki Sucks, please.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Literally anyone and everyone! Or at least they should have.

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?

Grey Wolf

[wombat31]

It could also be that implosion is being conflated with destruction which does do damage on a save and also specifically prevents resurrection unless you use true resurrection or wish or miracle.

[Dragonus45]

The latter.

Hey, I saved 13 pages! :smalltongue:


Oh, if only it were that easy.

[ericgrau]

Regarding implosion discussion, story > rules. Maybe it got interrupted in the first round, maybe Durkon passed his save, maybe a bit of mixed fudgery, maybe it's a total rules be damned. Regardless Redcloak tried to crush Durkon with all the bloody flavor that implied, Durkon resisted a bit, and the attempt got interrupted. How that happened mechanically is secondary and subject to any amount of DM/Rich hand-waving as is convenient.

[Tvtyrant]

"Less than ye" Can I get a picture of Redcloaks face in the next panel in lieu of paradise?

[Peelee]

Have you not read SoD? Because we know exactly what Redcloak’s Plan is.
Also the author had told us directly. I ld like to think he hasn't deliberately and openly lied to us.

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?

Grey Wolf
Durkon's distortion was because he was close to the imploding creature, obviously. My favorite theory was that Redcloak was imploding himself.

"Favorite" having a fairly loose meaning here, of course.

[Fyraltari]

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?

Grey Wolf

Durkon getting caught in the non-existent area of effect of Redclaok targeting somebody beyond our field of vision or himself.

Also, forgot to put « and not so that Durkon can get précisions from Thor but indeed to get rid of him » in there.

[Schroeswald]

I skipped the drama by the expedient method of not reading the last comic thread, but now I'm curious: what kind of justification was given to Durkon starting to be distorted by the implosion in the last panel of the last comic?

Grey Wolf

The justification was something like he was nearby so it moved him still? Somehow? The idea was dumb. The top candidates were Redcloak was committing suicide and there was an enemy behind Durkon... that Redcloak wasn't looking at for some reason.

[Psyren]

Also - congrats Durkon for going 0-3!
https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/No+white+text+on+a+white+background+_b4a4fc650a952 4a43ab53e7e95ed65d4.png

Well, he did try to warn Thor. (Though Thor could have been thinking as much about his fort save modifier as his Diplomacy when considering his qualifications :smalltongue:)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The latter.

Hey, I saved 13 pages! :smalltongue:

Your optimism in the face of all past experience will never cease to amaze me.


I remain amazed by The Giant’s ability to surprise us with such simple tactics. Nobody but nobody had guessed « Thor’s might while dropping out of Wind Walk in the air. »
As dancrilis pointed out, that'd not be a "valid" guess because Wind Walk doesn't allow you to do that - it takes 5 rounds to change shape to/from smoke. In advance, without knowing Rich was going to ignore that, it would not be a logical thing to guess.

Grey Wolf

[Xtreme_Banana]

My my, that's one powerful BONK

[ericgrau]

Ahem, it’s called the Hammer of Loki Sucks, please.
Forgive me, it's been a while.

[Crœsos]

Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake and this has been mentioned on other threads earlier, but I just noticed that Redcloak does not seem to be using his (square) backup holy symbol (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) anymore. He's once again using a more traditional (circular) holy symbol, and has been since strip 1036 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html). The backup holy symbol was last seen at Girard's Gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html). So is he actually openly wearing his original holy symbol/Xykon's phylactery, or did he just want something more traditional?

Apologies if this has been previously discussed.

[Peelee]

Forgive me

No.

I WILL TAKE THIS TO MY GRAVE.

[Kereea]

Ah Recloak, you just cannot resist talking. And Durkon sure as heck ain't Tsukiko.

Durkon clearly pushed his buttons with that answer, tho. When in doubt, call out how that guy can't drop the sunk cost fallacy even tho he's outright acting counter to his stated purpose on multiple occasions for the sake of his "plan" working out in the end.

I do wonder if we're going to have the rest of the party not far behind. Minrah likely guessed Durkon's plans and she was able to get their fairly quickly. V can at the very least cast fly, if they had it prepared, and Haley has Boots of Speed. Everyone else could ride Bloodfeast.

Frankly I'm still interested in how the Dark One would feel about any of this. He's such a vague character and communicates directly so little that it could be interesting. And then of course there's our mysterious pal who kidnapped the paladins...This is allegedly the endgame setting up, so we're on a multitrack collision course. The question is just when and how.

[Fyraltari]

Also - congrats Durkon for going 0-3!
https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/No+white+text+on+a+white+background+_b4a4fc650a952 4a43ab53e7e95ed65d4.png

Well, he did try to warn Thor. (Though Thor could have been thinking as much about his fort save modifier as his Diplomacy when considering his qualifications :smalltongue:)
Your picture doesn’t show.

You know, The Giant said that he often shows the obvious tactic not working to avoid having to explain why the heroes don’t try it. I wonder if this scene is this idea in action: the obvious tactic of « just walking to Redclaok and explaining the situation » is shown not working.

Your optimism in the face of all past experience will never cease to amaze me.
Agreed, Peelee only saved 12 pages.



As dancrilis pointed out, that'd not be a "valid" guess because Wind Walk doesn't allow you to do that - it takes 5 rounds to change shape to/from smoke. In advance, without knowing Rich was going to ignore that, it would not be a logical thing to guess.

Grey Wolf

Ah well... *shrug*

[kenlund]

Very cool. I was expecting Minrah to throw the hammer or do some kind of attack with it since Durkon didn't have it. Never imagined Thor's Might spell would be part of the attack.

[ericgrau]

Plan B, capture Redcloak and dominate person him into casting a 9th level spell into the trap the Snarl ritual?

[t209]

Ummm, what just happened to Durkon?
Why he didn’t turn into squished mess like Elf leader?

[faustin]

Ummm, what just happened to Durkon?
Why he didn’t turn into squished mess like Elf leader?

Higher level and better saves.

[Crœsos]

Ummm, what just happened to Durkon?
Why he didn’t turn into squished mess like Elf leader?

Made his save (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html).

[The MunchKING]

Gotta say, it was kind of satisfying to have someone call out Redcloak on the number of goblins he's effectively killed. I know it's happened before, but he very much needs frequent reminders on that score.

Yeah, but Redcloak asks Durkon how many he killed personally, and I think "on camera" we've only seen Redcloak kill, what? Two? The Hobgoblin administerer of the tests and the one goblin in SoD. The rest kind of died around him, or died for his cause, but I can't remember any others Redcloak actually killed. He said he was willing to have killed a couple of other ones if they hadn't already died, but that's not really what was asked.


Ahem, it’s called the Hammer of Loki Sucks, please.

Hammer Of Loki EXTREMELY Sucks, would make a better acronym. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do wonder if we're going to have the rest of the party not far behind. Minrah likely guessed Durkon's plans and she was able to get their fairly quickly.

Minrah didn't have to guess - she was in on the plan. And I'd imagine that they aren't staying to fight, they'll just turn back to smoke and leave.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Your optimism in the face of all past experience will never cease to amaze me.


As dancrilis pointed out, that'd not be a "valid" guess because Wind Walk doesn't allow you to do that - it takes 5 rounds to change shape to/from smoke. In advance, without knowing Rich was going to ignore that, it would not be a logical thing to guess.

Grey Wolf
Given that I had guessed TDO might revoke his spellcasting abilities for that spell, which is not at all how it should work, I have no problem making non-valid guesses. :smallwink:

Made his save (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html).

No, the spell fizzled (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1210.html).

[Ghosty]

Higher level and better saves.

Or Minrah interrupted Redcloak before the squishy-squashy could get really going.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, but Redcloak asks Durkon how many he killed personally, and I think "on camera" we've only seen Redcloak kill, what? Two? The Hobgoblin administerer of the tests and the one goblin in SoD. The rest kind of died around him, or died for his cause, but I can't remember any others Redcloak actually killed. He said he was willing to have killed a couple of other ones if they hadn't already died, but that's not really what was asked.


Sending hobgoblins singing up a mountain to be crushed by rocks or covered in sauce to be eaten by a monster is deliberate murder.

GW

[Kereea]

Ummm, what just happened to Durkon?
Why he didn’t turn into squished mess like Elf leader?

Apparently Fortitude Saves can negate the spell in 3.5 and being a dwarf and a cleric who routinely casts concentration based spells, Dukon likely has pretty high CON, in addition to a Fortitude save bonus. So he might have been able to save in the first round while the elf couldn't/didn't. But Redcloak gets four rounds of the spell if he stays focused on it, hence him trying again.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake and this has been mentioned on other threads earlier, but I just noticed that Redcloak does not seem to be using his (square) backup holy symbol (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) anymore. He's once again using a more traditional (circular) holy symbol, and has been since strip 1036 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html). The backup holy symbol was last seen at Girard's Gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html). So is he actually openly wearing his original holy symbol/Xykon's phylactery, or did he just want something more traditional?

Apologies if this has been previously discussed.
In terms of consensus, there is no consensus. I think he just had one made in the old fashion for religious reasons.

Ah Recloak, you just cannot resist talking. And Durkon sure as heck ain't Tsukiko.

Durkon clearly pushed his buttons with that answer, tho. When in doubt, call out how that guy can't drop the sunk cost fallacy even tho he's outright acting counter to his stated purpose on multiple occasions for the sake of his "plan" working out in the end.

I do wonder if we're going to have the rest of the party not far behind. Minrah likely guessed Durkon's plans and she was able to get their fairly quickly. V can at the very least cast fly, if they had it prepared, and Haley has Boots of Speed. Everyone else could ride Bloodfeast.

Frankly I'm still interested in how the Dark One would feel about any of this. He's such a vague character and communicates directly so little that it could be interesting. And then of course there's our mysterious pal who kidnapped the paladins...This is allegedly the endgame setting up, so we're on a multitrack collision course. The question is just when and how.
I am fairly confident this was Durkon’s fall-back plan.
(panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html))

Yeah, but Redcloak asks Durkon how many he killed personally, and I think "on camera" we've only seen Redcloak kill, what? Two? The Hobgoblin administerer of the tests and the one goblin in SoD. The rest kind of died around him, or died for his cause, but I can't remember any others Redcloak actually killed. He said he was willing to have killed a couple of other ones if they hadn't already died, but that's not really what was asked.
Sending people to their deaths count.




Hammer Of Loki EXTREMELY Sucks, would make a better acronym. :smallbiggrin:
Maybe so but that’s not the password.

[Orm-Embar]

Sticky pickle. They need to get out of there fast.

They need to not pass up the strategic opportunity of denying their opponents one of their primary magical assets. And as a bonus, Redcloak can report to the Dark One in person!

[Kereea]

Minrah didn't have to guess - she was in on the plan. And I'd imagine that they aren't staying to fight, they'll just turn back to smoke and leave.

Grey Wolf

They may not be interested in fighting, probably more of a "rush in, save the cleric, run away" kind of plan. Again, it's just me wondering about possibilities.

[Fyraltari]

They need to not pass up the strategic opportunity of denying their opponents one of their primary magical assets. And as a bonus, Redcloak can report to the Dark One in person!
Can’t kill him, still need him. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CantKillYouStillNeedYou)

[Peelee]

Apparently Fortitude Saves can negate the spell in 3.5 and being a dwarf and a cleric who routinely casts concentration based spells, Dukon likely has pretty high CON, in addition to a Fortitude save bonus. So he might have been able to save in the first round while the elf couldn't/didn't. But Redcloak gets four rounds of the spell if he stays focused on it, hence him trying again.

By the rules, only one saving throw is needed and the spell cannot retarget anyone who has made their save.

By the comic, we see the spell fizzle.

[Gwynfrid]

I wondered how the Giant was going to solve the Implosion save-or-die effect without falling back to the for-laughs "made my saving throw" situation we had seen before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html), and would have been inappropriate here, from a dramatic perspective. His solution was simply to change the way Implosion works, and this version is a hundred times better than the D&D3.5 SRD's. Beautiful!

[Fyraltari]

Are the « snap » and « kllrtchtc » sound effects Durkon’s bones? :smalleek:

[Iakus]

Well, I suppose this qualifies as a 'Big Damn Heroes" moment... :biggrin:

[ratfox]

Surprise giant dwarf oxymoron! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

No, the spell fizzled (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1210.html).

I think its both - he made his save initially, but Redcloak kept trying to murder him by concentrating on subsequent rounds. The Giant just glossed over (or forgot) the whole "if you make your save you're immune to further attempts" clause, because it was more dramatic that way.

Either way there is a rule being broken here (Minrah could not ready an action to cast Thor's Might AND jump into melee from off-panel AND swing at Reddy before the spell went off) so the former rule is the one I'll go with.


Are the « snap » and « kllrtchtc » sound effects Durkon’s bones? :smalleek:

It's his body resisting the spell.

[silversaraph]

And Durkon really doesn't know how much his words are true, either. He's talking about the destruction of the planet, but doesn't know that he thought it was, for instance, hilarious to force march his army to death (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html). "Snuffed out" implies callousness and pointlessness, I think. Durkon always killed in self-defense or towards an ultimate goal, and I don't think he ever usually enjoyed it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html), while RC considered it "Liberating" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html). Of course, you can try to consider RC's actions pre and post "epiphany" ("what the hell is wrong with me" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)) but that's exactly it: If redcloak actually did change, he should feel really, really guilty and ashamed of what he did before his change in mindset.

[Crookwise]

Gotta say, it was kind of satisfying to have someone call out Redcloak on the number of goblins he's effectively killed. I know it's happened before, but he very much needs frequent reminders on that score.


Knowing that Durkon isn't super familiar with Redcloak's personal failings, this has got to sting even more.

But I assumed Durkon was coming from a position of blaming Redcloak for not convincing his god to take advice from another pantheon, thereby dooming not only all goblins that have so far ever existed, but also all the ones that ever could, to the oblivion the Snarl will cause for the world (and, the presumed loss of TDO which means that goblins in any future world won't have that particular patron to lift them up).

I gathered that's what your "effectively" was referring to, but I think the details bear being explicitly mentioned here, 'cause inevitably someone's going to miss the implicit gravitas of that burn - and it's too glorious to permit going unnoticed.

EDIT: That said, it's a bad move on Durkon's part. Redcloak's hatred for other races at this point is an apocalyptic fiery inferno, and he just threw an ocean of gasoline on it. Making all the meaning he left out, above, a little clearer would have been wiser, but can't be delivered so easily in a one-liner while you're being crushed to death, after all.

Plus, telling Redcloak he's undoing reality by his choices has a high intellectual purchase cost, and nobody ever makes those buys when they're this mad.

[Dragonus45]

Either way there is a rule being broken here (Minrah could not ready an action to cast Thor's Might AND jump into melee from off-panel AND swing at Reddy before the spell went off) so the former rule is the one I'll go with.


She actually could depending on if their is any special ability attached to The Hammer, Swift Action: Thors Might seems like a reasonable ability for it to possess.

[mjasghar]

Since the Thor’s might and the equivalent Hel spell used at the godmoot clearly more than double the height etc of the subject, it likely also is a higher level spell beyond Minrah.
I suspect Minrah and Durkon both went solid and he cast it on her and added something that would allow her to jump a far distance.
Edit: just read it again and she seems to be in wind walk form. Or maybe it’s a special feature of the Hammer.

[Psyren]

She actually could depending on if their is any special ability attached to The Hammer, Swift Action: Thors Might seems like a reasonable ability for it to possess.

Readying a swift is the same action as readying a standard. Furthermore, she still needed another standard to attack with to disrupt the spell. So the spell having gone off (and Durkon resisting it initially) fits the scene better.

[Fyraltari]

Since the Thor’s might and the equivalent Hel spell used at the godmoot clearly more than double the height etc of the subject, it likely also is a higher level spell beyond Minrah.
I suspect Minrah and Durkon both went solid and he cast it on her and added something that would allow her to jump a far distance.

How do you explain all the smoke, then?

[dancrilis]

Yeah, but Redcloak asks Durkon how many he killed personally, and I think "on camera" we've only seen Redcloak kill, what? Two? The Hobgoblin administerer of the tests and the one goblin in SoD. The rest kind of died around him, or died for his cause, but I can't remember any others Redcloak actually killed.


Think Durkon has killed 8 on panel in the main comic,1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), 2-5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html), 6-8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html) and I don't think there is any indication he killed any others.

Redcloak has personally killed very few with his own two hands, weapons, spells etc so if you assume that personally means like that rather then as a delibrate result of his intentional actions then Redcloaks count is likely lower then Durkons, but Redcloak doesn't see it that way "I've been killing you off because of ... because of a childish grudge! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)" so from Redcloak's prespective he has indeed killed more then Durkon personally, presumedly 20 alone here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html).

[understatement]

Goddamn, this was satisfying. Gives me "hell YES!" vibes from seeing the ghost martyrs rise up against Xykon and from O-Chul plowing out Redcloak's eye.

Redcloak, you're one of my favorite characters and all, but that smackdown from Durkon and Minrah is just perfect.

***

On the negative side, this is the surefire way to draw every person's attention, isn't it?

[137beth]

Wow, that is not the role I expected Minrah to play in Durkon's escape.

[B. Dandelion]

Durkon doesn't know everything that Redcloak's gotten up to, so I think when he says "na as many as ye" he is referring to all the goblins on the planet who will die as a direct result of Redcloak's refusal to help.

But Redcloak is directly responsible for more goblin death than Durkon even if you don't take those future deaths as a given. And I think Redcloak realizes that too. So the burn hurts twice as bad.

[Wowlock]

Red Cloak...you stupid fool. You were are fool of a Goblin after all.

[Dragonus45]

Readying a swift is the same action as readying a standard. Furthermore, she still needed another standard to attack with to disrupt the spell. So the spell having gone off (and Durkon resisting it initially) fits the scene better.

When did she have to ready the spell? It seemed pretty clear she did all that on her turn. End Windwalk, wait a few turns, on the turn wind walk ends cast swift action spell, ready attack to smack goblin after falling to the ground.

[mjasghar]

I wonder if this redcloak’s comment about not allowing resurrection means this is a higher level version of implosion. It takes place over more rounds and allows saves which result in damage if saved. However it prevents resurrection because it’s concentrates the effects.

[Peelee]

I wonder if this redcloak’s comment about not allowing resurrection means this is a higher level version of implosion. It takes place over more rounds and allows saves which result in damage if saved. However it prevents resurrection because it’s concentrates the effects.

Implosion is already 9th level, so unless you want to suggest that Redcloak is now Epic, I doubt that'd be a higher-level version.

[Psyren]

When did she have to ready the spell? It seemed pretty clear she did all that on her turn. End Windwalk, wait a few turns, on the turn wind walk ends cast swift action spell, ready attack to smack goblin after falling to the ground.

That's exactly my point - if it all happened on her turn then the spell already went off (because Redcloak's turn/surprise round would need to be over). Implosion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) has a standard action cast time. I'm agreeing with you that it had to have happened that way.


I wonder if this redcloak’s comment about not allowing resurrection means this is a higher level version of implosion. It takes place over more rounds and allows saves which result in damage if saved. However it prevents resurrection because it’s concentrates the effects.

To be fair, "collapse in on itself" isn't defined in the rules anywhere - it's up to the Giant as far as what remains would be left from something like that and whether they would be enough to resurrect from. Given RC, who has seen the spell in action before, said "implode into oblivion", the Giant may have simply resolved that ambiguity by ruling that Implosion leaves nothing behind.

RC could also have been speaking practically - even if there are remains left over from implosion, they could be too small for the Order to locate and use, even if they could find a cleric capable of resurrecting Durkon.

[Fyraltari]

Implosion is already 9th level, so unless you want to suggest that Redcloak is now Epic, I doubt that'd be a higher-level version.

You say that like Reddie hasn’t spent some time level grinding against monsters tough enough to give XP to an epic lich sorcerer.

[KorvinStarmast]

I read this stip and by the time I was done, I was grinning from ear to ear. Durkon, the burnmeister, has learned a trick or two from Belkar over the years on burns. Minrah: that's how to make an entrance.

"Na as many as ye" Man, when Durkon abandons diplomatic politeness, he cuts deep Most diplomats I've met also know how to slip in the knife. :smallwink:

*Assuming it's Righteous Might, which seems likely. My first guess was "daily power from the mystical hammer" since CL&G has her at roughly 5 Ftr and 5 Cler.

So Minrah was flying around in windwalk form with Durkon's hammer just in case, he? Good work, Durkon -- always have a backup plan! He learned a thing or two from HPoH about back up plans. :smallcool:

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe! You now have my everlasting vote for 'best girl'! Yeah, and some people were worried that she wouldn't fit in (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1100.html). :smallcool:

Speaking of tables, one little touch I noticed is that the table that was shaped was also literally smashed to pieces.c

Probably symbolic, more than anything, that peace won't be an option. Nice catch.
Right, so we'll call it the hammer in Thor's statue, or Hits. HiTS. Works for me.

I have now joined the Cult of Shaleshoe. We have pamphlets, enthusiasm, and a stubborn unwillingness to accept victory at cost. And we have a staff of volunteers who'll be taking your phone calls as you order your Minrah Rocks with Might t-shirts ...

[Sniccups]

I always assumed that Thor's Might is just a reflavored Enlarge Person, which would make perfect sense for Minrah to cast. I didn't even realize people had other ideas for what it might be. As for the appearance of increasing more than it should by the rules, V's Mass Enlarge Person (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) did the same.

[Peelee]

You say that like Reddie hasn’t spent some time level grinding against monsters tough enough to give XP to an epic lich sorcerer.
Not at all; I just haven't seen anyone suggest it yet.

Most diplomats I've met also know how to slip in the knife. :smallwink:

Gotta know what not to say in addition to knowing what to say.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not at all; I just haven't seen anyone suggest it yet. I mentioned it a few threads ago, not sure which one. Maybe in 1209's thread.

Gotta know what not to say in addition to knowing what to say. Yeah.

I forgot to mention; Redcloak's exposition in panel 1 was right on target. We'd all discussed that in 1209's thread, and it fits who he is and what his priorities are to a T.

[bunsen_h]

Gotta know what not to say in addition to knowing what to say.

"A gentleman never insults someone unintentionally" -- commonly misattributed to Oscar Wilde.

[Hopeless]

Sorry about this but YES!!!

It appears Thor decided not to wait for Durkon but sent his hammer to respond immediately with an attaching dwarf for bonus damage!:smallamused:

I'm sorry but I really wanted to scream my head off after reading this!:smallbiggrin:

[mjasghar]

I always assumed that Thor's Might is just a reflavored Enlarge Person, which would make perfect sense for Minrah to cast. I didn't even realize people had other ideas for what it might be. As for the appearance of increasing more than it should by the rules, V's Mass Enlarge Person (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) did the same.

Enlarge Person imposes dex penalties as seen in how clumsy the guards were
The Might spell doesn’t

[hroþila]

That was one savage burn by Durkon. I wonder to what extent he's aware of how deep that cuts. I mean, I imagine he must have meant it in a generic "leading goblins to their deaths" kind of way.

[Bedinsis]

Minrah's entry was so satisfying.

I also agree with all of those that considers the line "Na as many as ye" great.

I didn't realize on the last page that implosion would prevent resurrection.

[Grey Watcher]

Minrah sure knows how to make an entrance. Looks like she picked up something from spending the trip with Elan.

Also, panel 3 is really, really disturbing.

[Tibbius]

oh ... my ... wow.

[volvagia720]

As for Redcloak preventing Resurrection, is there a standard spell that does this? I found one that traps the soul in a gem, but he wouldn't be able to talk to Thor, as Redcloak implied.

[Ariko]

Literally anyone and everyone! Or at least they should have.

Except for several people who were literally arguing that Redcloak was targeting himself or Xykon for some reason. Saw your white text too late :smallredface:

[Peelee]

As for Redcloak preventing Resurrection, is there a standard spell that does this?

Well, two (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) spells, at the very least.

[Ironsmith]

That's a level 5 spell*, so I guess Minrah is at least a level 9 Cleric, huh? And multiclassed with Fighter? So she's probably a bit higher level than we previously thought.

*Assuming it's Righteous Might, which seems likely.

Alternative: she just came off a vampire-hunting campaign, one for which she seemed underleveled at the time. Even with the level loss from dying, she's probably a bit higher now than she was when the Order met her.

[dancrilis]

Thinking about it Minrah is alright but I do kindof want Redcloak to kill her.
Firstly because Redcloak as argueable the second most powerful guy around getting nothing out of this would seem to undercut the threat he poses after he showed it against the resistance ... but it would also be a learning experience for Durkon about listening to his party leader and the burdens of command about how leading yourself to death (as Roy did against Xykon) is easier then leading others to their deaths (as Roy did with Durkon) and it might be nice for Durkon to learn that also, especially as he knows she wanted to live her life and help out more then she wanted Valhalla so he can't even be happy for her dying like a Dwarf.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Leadership guarantees a companion - the DM can reward one on a whim at will and the guidelines remain the same. The point of the guideline is that an NPC travelling with the party should never overshadow any member of the party.Good think this is a stick figure comic than, otherwise between Minrah's gaint size and positioning she'd if she had a shadow would probably be over Durkon right now.



I have now joined the Cult of Shaleshoe. We have pamphlets, enthusiasm, and a stubborn unwillingness to accept victory at cost.You insist on paying full price for victory?

[Baine]

If they (somehow) manage to kill Redcloak, would team Evil be able to resurrect him? Give him a little one-on-one chat with TDO.

[The_Weirdo]

Durkon's comeback was awesome and Minrah's save was magnificent.

Of note: Durkon could absolutely not have said that while still claiming moral superiority if he were from the SG. But he's not; he is morally superior to Redcloak and the SG in that regard.

[Dausuul]

Minrah likely guessed Durkon's plans and she was able to get their fairly quickly.
Minrah is wielding Durkon's artifact-hammer, and she wasn't present in the scene with Roy and the others (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html). Durkon clearly set this up with her ahead of time.

[dancrilis]

I don't know man. It's inelegant to completely change how a spell works just to suit some particular plot flourish to which there are lots of alternatives (like him going gaseous, etc). Like it or not the comic is completely grounded in the rules of 3e D&D. Suddenly going more freeform kind of breaks the ground rules.

Just like Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage this might be a custom spell of Redcloak's couple of advangates and disadvantages over Implosion (standard) but basically the same spell.

[Elves]

Just like Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage this might be a custom spell of Redcloak's couple of advangates and disadvantages over Implosion (standard) but basically the same spell.

It's bad taste because it resulted in a fake cliffhanger. For all audience knows, implosion is instant. Then suddenly by fiat, it isn't.

[Baelzar]

I don't know man. It's inelegant to completely change how a spell works just to suit some particular plot flourish to which there are lots of alternatives (like him going gaseous, etc). Like it or not the comic is completely grounded in the rules of 3e D&D. Suddenly going more freeform kind of breaks the ground rules.Well, you know how it goes around here. Goblins are usually evil. Implosion is....usually save or die in 3.5e OOTS Edition. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

If they (somehow) manage to kill Redcloak, would team Evil be able to resurrect him? Give him a little one-on-one chat with TDO.

Depends on Jirix's level most likely; Xykon could certainly go pick him up.

[Edea]

As for Redcloak preventing Resurrection, is there a standard spell that does this? I found one that traps the soul in a gem, but he wouldn't be able to talk to Thor, as Redcloak implied.

Destruction.

[Doug Lampert]

Could it a spell scroll?

Spell scroll and ring of spell storing both work fine for casting an overleveled spell. Ring of spell storing, you don't even need to worry about the caster level check.


I don't know man. It's inelegant to completely change how a spell works just to suit some particular plot flourish to which there are lots of alternatives (like him going gaseous, etc). Like it or not the comic is completely grounded in the rules of 3e D&D. Suddenly going more freeform kind of breaks the ground rules.

What are the complete changes? We've seen spells take partial effect then someone save before. Talking is a free action that you can do on someone else's turn.

Redcloak cast, Durkon saved, Minrah attacked, all 100% SRD compliant.

If you insist that the spell fizzled due to Minrah's attack, then the rules' violation is that she can't have readied enough actions to do all that, the spell in that case never went off, and we saw a precursor effect during the casting. Nothing in the SRD says that spells take no time to cast and that there's no sign of magic till you finish, D&D HAS no meaningful rules for how long anything that takes less than six seconds takes.

[Peelee]

It's bad taste because it resulted in a fake cliffhanger. For all audience knows, implosion is instant. Then suddenly by fiat, it isn't.
For all the audience knows, the previous strips skipped over how long implosion takes because it was in a tense battle scene.

I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible. An enraged half-orc smashing a person into a wall so hard that the wall breaks is entirely plausible, so it shouldn't matter how it's accomplished "by the rules." Most readers are only peripherally aware of the rules anyway.


If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

[johnbragg]

Interesting way of representing what I assumed was Durkon making multiple saves, since the effect can repeat every round till it runs out. RC once again shows he doesn't really consider any path but the one he is committed to an option, he is just in too deep. Also.

"Na as many as ye" is dis of the year.

Naah, it looks like Giant just houseruled Implosion to work differently.


You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

That's not a description of what happened in this strip.

I'm okay with Giant departing from 3.5 canon. 5e's move to fewer single-save-or-die effects and more multiple-save effects was a good thing IMO. (If you disagree, that is good and valid and enjoy your gaming. No edition warring necessary.)

EDIT: Apparently, the PAthfinder version fits the strip. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/implosion/


This spell causes a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. Each round you concentrate (including the first), you can cause one creature to collapse in on itself, inflicting 10 points of damage per caster level. If you break concentration, the spell immediately ends, though any implosions that have already happened remain in effect. You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell. Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

And as for Minrah casting Thor's Might as a 5th level spell (or 4th level as a domain spell), I'm guessing she activated a property of the artifact weapon that Durkon lent her.

[Darth Paul]

Having an ally standing by to rescue you when the negotiations go south is just good, sound strategy. Kudos, Durkon.

[Fyraltari]

Thinking about it Minrah is alright but I do kindof want Redcloak to kill her.
Firstly because Redcloak as argueable the second most powerful guy around getting nothing out of this would seem to undercut the threat he poses after he showed it against the resistance
Redcloak already gained a lot. The Order’s element of surprise is dust.
I also really doubt it needs to be reinforced how dangerous he is.

but it would also be a learning experience for Durkon about listening to his party leader and the burdens of command about how leading yourself to death (as Roy did against Xykon) is easier then leading others to their deaths (as Roy did with Durkon) and it might be nice for Durkon to learn that also, especially as he knows she wanted to live her life and help out more then she wanted Valhalla so he can't even be happy for her dying like a Dwarf.
Sure, no problem with that at all. (https://lby3.com/wir/)

[johnbragg]

That's a level 5 spell*, so I guess Minrah is at least a level 9 Cleric, huh? And multiclassed with Fighter? So she's probably a bit higher level than we previously thought.

*Assuming it's Righteous Might, which seems likely.

More likely, the artifact weapon she's wielding has "wielder can cast Thor's Might" as a feature.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Celestia]

Killer Queen has already touched this page.

That was an awesome save by Minrah. Glorious.

[pendell]

*Applauds madly* .
So, things I learned from this strip:
1) Durkon failed his save against implosion.
2) Implosion renders the target un-resurrectable.
3) As expected, Durkon did NOT go into this unprepared, but it wasn't the solution I had in mind. The solution was wind-walked Minrah ready to spring in. Which she did, and her action caused the spell to fizzle. I didn't know that could be done by the rules, but hey, it's a story. It works.

Durkon's response: "Not... as many as ... ye." Quite right. A superb rebuttal.

So now what?
They can't kill Redcloak, not if they still want that purple quiddity. So I guess their next action is to bug out.

Great strip, and great story telling!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gnome Alone]

I am half convinced that Redcloak targeted him because he dared to say "help us save tha goblins" ... which I could see just annoying Redcloak on many, many levels.

Yes, I thought that was a huge mistake! Durkin wasn't being disingenuous, although Redcloak could easily have seen it that way, and even if he wasn't, it's still hella patronizing.

[Dausuul]

More likely, the artifact weapon she's wielding has "wielder can cast Thor's Might" as a feature.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it has "X times per day, when you attack with this weapon, you can cast Thor's might on yourself." That would explain how Minrah is able to both cast and attack before Redcloak gets to do anything.

[Curupira]

If you insist that the spell fizzled due to Minrah's attack (...)

People here is not "insisting" on an interpretation of an ambiguous comic: the art is unequivocal. The botton of the last panel has "fizzle!" clearly written on it. :smallwink:

[Ionathus]

Sure, no problem with that at all. (https://lby3.com/wir/)

Thank you for this -- exactly what I was thinking. Rich wouldn't (hopefully!) introduce a new badass woman character just to have her killed off to motivate one of The Boys.


It's bad taste because it resulted in a fake cliffhanger. For all audience knows, implosion is instant. Then suddenly by fiat, it isn't.

"Fake cliffhanger" makes it sound like you're assuming bad faith from the storyteller, which I believe is unfair but is your right to do so. However, I don't see why you need to see it as manipulative of the audience when you could just as easily see it as being to the audience's advantage -- it makes for a better-paced story, and as we've seen before, save-or-suck effects often don't look very cool in action (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). That was good for laughs, but for this circumstance, I prefer the version we got.

I have never seen a single game of D&D, regardless of DMing style, that didn't bend the rules at one moment or another for a more dramatic moment. If you want a place where everything is a measured physical absolute, OotS isn't going to be it. I think you need to accept that small concessions happen or you'll have a bad time with this (or any) story.

[r2d2go]

Minrah also could very realistically have gained a few levels from:

-Completing an epic questline many levels above her
-Completing personal milestones overcoming her turned master and meeting Thor
-Fighting a CR 15-18ish vampire cleric and then some
-Fighting a CR 18 Nightcrawler and then some

Also, I feel like partial interruption causing partial death is the most likely interpretation of the implosion, but if it IS pathfinder that means we have more info on Durkon's tank stats!

[faustin]

Besides Durkon's response, note that Redcloak doesn't even bother saying Durkon's name when addressing him, just "dwarf". That's despite Durkon having treated him with respect during the talk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That was one savage burn by Durkon. I wonder to what extent he's aware of how deep that cuts. I mean, I imagine he must have meant it in a generic "leading goblins to their deaths" kind of way.

Durkon watched RC order his goblins forward to die so their bodies would create a ramp to the breach in the Azure city walls. That act alone outstrips anything Durkon has done to goblinkind.

Grey Wolf

[Elves]

Redcloak cast, Durkon saved, Minrah attacked, all 100% SRD compliant.

You can't ready even a charge action, so I was assuming it was a full turn for her (even then exceeding the actions she has by the rules, but that's light enough to fudge). If it's portrayed as a readied action, even with the fudging, I don't mind that as much. Better than changing implosion, since the way implosion works had already been established in the comic.

The part where it would be cheap storytelling is if you establish how something works, use that expectation to create a cliffhanger, then arbitrarily change the prior knowledge to get your guy out of the cliffhanger.

[The_Weirdo]

The solution was wind-walked Minrah ready to spring in. Which she did, and her action caused the spell to fizzle. I didn't know that could be done by the rules, but hey, it's a story. It works.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Implosion depends on concentration. When you're hit you need to pass a Concentration check with the DC equal to 15 + the damage taken (IIRC) or the spell fizzles. If we add up the very powerful hammer and the very angry and big dwarf with Thor's Might and the possible extra damage from the fall, in all likelihood Redcloak took far more than the damage needed to make his Concentration save passable with anything but a 20.

Copycatingly,

The W.

(Now, really, I do think the "Respectfully" and signature thing you do has quite a bit of style). :smallsmile:

[understatement]

Also, there might be some rule bending on if someone can draw out an instantaneous spell -- sorta loses the point for the spell being instantaneous in the first place, but all villains need to commit to their evil monologue.

[drazen]

Well, that is one enlarged dwarf making one big loud thud (landing) and one big loud thwack (hammer).

I'm guessing the Good clerics will need to beat feet, given Xykon's +8 racial bonus to Listen checks (and Oona is probably no slouch, either).

[dancrilis]

I also really doubt it needs to be reinforced how dangerous he is.
Of a low level hanger on* to the Order can effectively distrupt his concentration, knock him flat on his back and escape without a scratch you don't think it undermines him as a seriously dangerous combatant?



Sure, no problem with that at all. (https://lby3.com/wir/)
I did consider that, but even some tropes that some people don't like have a time and place, now I doubt The Giant will do so (for a number of reasons, including that he introduced her to have another character to engage with for humour etc and killing her off would kindof end that) - the idea that a character should be untouchable otherwise people will complain that they died and that the death motivates the remaining cast always seems weird to me.


Besides Durkon's response, note that Redcloak doesn't even bother saying Durkon's name when addressing him, just "dwarf". That's despite Durkon having treated him with respect during the talk.
Durkon never told him his name (I assume to make scrying harder) so I think faulting Redcloak for not knowing it is a bit odd.

*presumed and comparatively.

[Gray Mage]

You can't ready even a charge action, so I was assuming it was a full turn for her (even then exceeding the actions she has by the rules, but that's light enough to fudge). If it's portrayed as a readied action, even with the fudging, I don't mind that as much. Better than changing implosion, since the way implosion works had already been established in the comic.

The part where it would be cheap storytelling is if you establish how something works, use that expectation to create a cliffhanger, then arbitrarily change the prior knowledge to get your guy out of the cliffhanger.

I mean, he could have had Durkon succed on the save and the strip would have been mostly unchanged (only Durkon wouldn't have been in pain during it). RC has a lot of firepower, so Durkon would have needed the rescue anyway (and it seems like it was planned). Also, we hadn't seen a (possible) success on the save, only known failures.

[hroþila]

Durkon watched RC order his goblins forward to die so their bodies would create a ramp to the breach in the Azure city walls. That act alone outstrips anything Durkon has done to goblinkind.

Grey Wolf
I don't think Durkon was there to see that, though. Not on that section of the wall, where Vaarsuvius was alone (and there's reason to suspect (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html) Durkon couldn't be aware of that was happening there at the time), and certainly not where Team Evil's tactical decisions were made. Durkon might have been able to see there were so many hobgoblin corpses before the breach that a ramp had been formed, but knowing the intent behind that is a whole different matter. Plus, the order came ostensibly from the Death Knight, not from Redcloak. I just don't think Durkon would know enough to pin this on Redcloak, even though it *was* his fault.

[The Pilgrim]

:durkon: "Na as many as ye"

Bullseye!

You nailed it with that comeback, Durkon. Bravo. The burn damage Redcloak took from it, is going to keep hurting him a lot more than the Lighting Hammer.

[BloodSquirrel]

Well, there are an awful lot of theories on the last thread that have just aged very poorly.


Of a low level hanger* on to the Order can effectively distrupt his concentration, knock him flat on his back and escape without a scratch you don't think it undermines him as a seriously dangerous combatant?


No? I don't think that barely surviving an encounter with an enemy that was unprepared to face you, when you were preparing an escape beforehand, undermines that enemy very much. Especially when part of what makes said enemy dangerous is his ability to plan. Redcloak has just shown that he can smoke Durkon 1v1 with no problem.

And to the original point, I don't think that Durkon needs to "lose" anything else here. The dramatic meat was showing us that Redcloak is not open for negotiations. He's nowhere close to being able to be rationally talked into giving up The Plan. We've been shown how difficult it's going to be to get him to turn, which is plenty enough in terms of ratcheting up the tension.

(Personally, I'm hoping that RC doesn't ever redeem himself- he's too far gone at this point. I think that the best way for the strip to fulfill it's thematic promise is for a different character to take leadership of the goblinoids and find a wake to make peace that doesn't involve trying to re-write the fabric of reality.)

[johnbragg]

Spell scroll and ring of spell storing both work fine for casting an overleveled spell. Ring of spell storing, you don't even need to worry about the caster level check.

Both of those require a standard action though. (I don't see it stated for ring of spell storing, but the general rule is standard action to activate a magic item.)


What are the complete changes? We've seen spells take partial effect then someone save before. Talking is a free action that you can do on someone else's turn.

Eh, last time Redcloak cast implosion the effect was instantaneous.

One explanation that covers most of the relevant facts would be that the Giant is using the Pathfinder version, which does CL*10 damage per round. Previous targets didn't have the 180+ hit points for it to make any difference, Durkon does.

Not sure that jibes with Durkon losing 2 levels and the associated HP from the other times he was raised.

You know what, withdrawn. The Giant is just writing the story he wants to write.


Redcloak cast, Durkon saved, Minrah attacked, all 100% SRD compliant.

Not 100%. Minrah cast and attacked on the same round. (It's possible that The Giant has previously houseruled Thor's Might to allow a melee attack on the same round, if anyone wants to look it up they can. It doesn't matter to me)


If you insist that the spell fizzled due to Minrah's attack, then the rules' violation is that she can't have readied enough actions to do all that, the spell in that case never went off, and we saw a precursor effect during the casting. Nothing in the SRD says that spells take no time to cast and that there's no sign of magic till you finish, D&D HAS no meaningful rules for how long anything that takes less than six seconds takes.

Yeah, if rules compliance is a priority for you, then "Durkon made the save" is the best explanation, plus some action economy hack for Minrah to cast & attack in the same action. Houserule for Righteous Might, or something in the artifact hammer she's carrying.


In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it has "X times per day, when you attack with this weapon, you can cast Thor's might on yourself." That would explain how Minrah is able to both cast and attack before Redcloak gets to do anything.

Not directly--it's an action economy hack. But it does not matter at all for the story.

(I've been spending a lot of time in the homebrewing and roleplaying-game-design threads, so balancing action-economy hacks to be an effective gish vs balancing non-gishes vs gishes is on the brain.)

[Metastachydium]

Not gonna say I called it, but I absolutely freakin' CALLED IT.

(Please cf.
I don't think those terms are anywhere near good. It might just be a ”Really? I did what I did and that's the best you and your god can offer?”, perhaps conmbined with a lingering feeling that Durkon's really just a well-meaning fool (Redcloak does not seem to enjoy killing folks he has no reason to hate, and he does not seem to hate Durkon, he just resents his privileges – actual and perceived alike).
, as well as Redcloak openly and explicitly stating he doesn't care much about Durkon's offer or his assessment of the situation in panel no. 1, and his mentioning that Durkon's messy death was intended to be an „unfortunate side effect” [emphasis mine] of denying the Order their main divine caster in panel no. 5, which is pretty much the same thing.)

[pendell]

Now that I've had a chance to think on this and read the rest of the comments, I'm focusing on Redcloak's first statement:

:redcloak: "You said there were three possible paths and while I disagree, I see no reason to eliminate the first one as an option."

This implies that there actually IS a path forward to the negotiation: To wit, destroy Xykon. Once he's down and options 1 and 2 are off the table, Then Redcloak can be convinced to cast the ninth level spell to seal the snarl with the fourth color. But to do this, we need to foreclose the other two options by eliminating Xykon and capturing Redcloak alive. Only then, with no options left, would he be willing to cast such a spell.

I believe Durkon made a mistake as a negotiator because he's not negotiating from a position of strength. Of course Redcloak wouldn't consider an option of "give away something tangible for promises on behalf of others that Durkon is not empowered to make". He also seems to like his chances of defeating the OOTS. That was a terrible deal.

So it looks like there's some fighting still to do. Redcloak will only consider option 3 if options 1 and 2 are definitely, resoundingly taken off the table. Which means the OOTS has to win an unconditional ,and near-total victory.

I wonder , though ...

do you suppose the MITD can cast ninth-level spells and is of a fourth quiddity? Maybe we don't need Redcloak at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

You can't ready even a charge action, so I was assuming it was a full turn for her (even then exceeding the actions she has by the rules, but that's light enough to fudge). If it's portrayed as a readied action, even with the fudging, I don't mind that as much. Better than changing implosion, since the way implosion works had already been established in the comic.

The part where it would be cheap storytelling is if you establish how something works, use that expectation to create a cliffhanger, then arbitrarily change the prior knowledge to get your guy out of the cliffhanger.
You're only trading into account one small part of the pacing. The comic is meant to be paced as both individual strips and an overall story. Each individual strip will end with some sort of punch, but when taken as a whole (the ultimate intended final product) the situation is resolved immediately. It's not a cliffhanger in the sense most people use it as. When read sequentially, it's not a cliffhanger at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think Durkon was there to see that, though. Not on that section of the wall, where Vaarsuvius was alone (and there's reason to suspect (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html) Durkon couldn't be aware of that was happening there at the time), and certainly not where Team Evil's tactical decisions were made. Durkon might have been able to see there were so many hobgoblin corpses before the breach that a ramp had been formed, but knowing the intent behind that is a whole different matter. Plus, the order came ostensibly from the Death Knight, not from Redcloak. I just don't think Durkon would know enough to pin this on Redcloak, even though it *was* his fault.

Durkon was on the battlements, and not so far from the breach that V couldn't run over in response. He also could have heard from V. And the Death Knight is a puppet subordinate of RC - any decisions made by it are ultimately the responsibility of RC. The idea durkon remains completely ignorant of RC's decisions during that battle doesn't hold water.

Oh, there is also the use of clerics to zombify his own dead rather than heal the wounded (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html).


do you suppose the MITD can cast ninth-level spells and is of a fourth quiddity? Maybe we don't need Redcloak at all.
He'd need to gain five levels of cleric (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) to reanimate dead, so it is likely a no on the cast 9th level spells as a cleric.

Grey Wolf

[LadyEowyn]

Well. So there really wasn’t anything else going on with Redcloak, but Durkon did survive.

Major kudos to Durkon for that last line! That was exceptional.

I don’t know where things are going now, but my expectations of “Redcloak gets a redemption arc” just got a lot lower.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon watched RC order his goblins forward to die so their bodies would create a ramp to the breach in the Azure city walls. That act alone outstrips anything Durkon has done to goblinkind.

Grey Wolf
That was the Death Knight, though.

Of a low level hanger on* to the Order can effectively distrupt his concentration, knock him flat on his back and escape without a scratch you don't think it undermines him as a seriously dangerous combatant?
No. Everyone can get sucker-punched.



I did consider that, but even some tropes that some people don't like have a time and place, now I doubt The Giant will do so (for a number of reasons, including that he introduced her to have another character to engage with for humour etc and killing her off would kindof end that) - the idea that a character should be untouchable otherwise people will complain that they died and that the death motivates the remaining cast always seems weird to me.
Dude, you explicitly said you wanted her to die to teach Durkon a lesson. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you weren’t aware of the history of women in-comic being reduced to plot devices in service to the characterization of male characters but since you aren’t, what the hell, man?

[pendell]

He'd need to gain five levels of cleric (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) to reanimate dead, so it is likely a no on the cast 9th level spells as a cleric.


That's a taunt from Redcloak , not third-person-omnisicent indication of the MITD's true power. I'll wager Redcloak was unaware that the MITD could cast "ESCAPE!" or whatever that was at the end of Don't Split the Parry.

We still don't know what the MITD is really capable of.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[understatement]

I keep laughing at the last panel. It's pure gold.

To crib a joke off of someone else: Maxrah comes to save the day.

Still, I can't see Durkon and Minrah escaping in time -- the Order needs to get here ASAP, and preferably before Xykon or the bugbears come out.

Also, as for "Redcloak redemption" possibility: was 40/60 during Gobbotopia, dropped to 30/70 after Tsukiko, went to 40/60 when he was talking about the grievances, dropped to 20/80 after 1209, plummeted to 10/90 after today.

How would Redcloak fare against the Order?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a taunt from Redcloak , not third-person-omnisicent indication of the MITD's true power. I'll wager Redcloak was unaware that the MITD could cast "ESCAPE!" or whatever that was at the end of Don't Split the Parry.

I'd take that wager, since RC was very conveniently out of the room so he couldn't figure out who had whisked away V when the Escape happened. RC has access to monster manuals, and knows what MitD is. If he says MitD doesn't have cleric levels, I'm inclined to believe him over random speculation that MitD actually has 18 levels of cleric and worships the Dark One as a Deus Ex Machina to resolve the plot.


Still, I can't see Durkon and Minrah escaping in time -- the Order needs to get here ASAP, and preferably before Xykon or the bugbears come out.
They can just turn back into smoke and leave. Not only does it give them flight and up to 60 mph speed, it also gives damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. And since the 30 second time to change is not in effect, they can be out of there before Xykon can show up

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Well. So there really wasn’t anything else going on with Redcloak, but Durkon did survive.

Major kudos to Durkon for that last line! That was exceptional.

I don’t know where things are going now, but my expectations of “Redcloak gets a redemption arc” just got a lot lower.
They are still the same for me. There were no way this talk would have ended any differently. Right now Redcloak’s commitment to the plan plays the part of the unstoppable’ force and Durkon simply didn’t have the emotional connection to play the unmovable object. Still the offer has been made, and that will stew in Redcloak’s mind at one level or another. Goblin baby steps aren’t that big either.

That's a taunt from Redcloak , not third-person-omnisicent indication of the MITD's true power. I'll wager Redcloak was unaware that the MITD could cast "ESCAPE!" or whatever that was at the end of Don't Split the Parry.

We still don't know what the MITD is really capable of.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Actually since that’s obviously a clue to MitD’s nature it might as well be from an omniscient narrator, and I am pretty sure Redclaok knows exactly what MitD is capable of, which is why he was removed from the prémisses when the Great ESCAPE happened.

[dancrilis]

Dude, you explicitly said you wanted her to die to teach Durkon a lesson. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you weren’t aware of the history of women in-comic being reduced to plot devices in service to the characterization of male characters but since you aren’t, what the hell, man?

What?
My thinking has nothing to do with her being a woman, she is effectively a follower of Durkon who he brought to a very dangerous situation against the advise of his party leader, I am pretty sure I would feel the exact same way if she was a male character - would you?

[KorvinStarmast]

Durkon could absolutely not have said that while still claiming moral superiority if he were from the SG. But he's not; he is morally superior to Redcloak and the SG in that regard.
At the moment, he might not consider that his own best feature.

It's bad taste because it resulted in a fake cliffhanger. For all audience knows, implosion is instant. Then suddenly by fiat, it isn't. You may be surprised to learn that a significant number of the audience are not D&D 3.5 afficianados.
... it's still hella patronizing. ... from Redcloak's PoV, yes, it could be received that way.
Rich wouldn't (hopefully!) introduce a new badass woman character just to have her killed off to motivate one of The Boys. Is it Minrah, or is it Minrocks! :smallcool:

Besides Durkon's response, note that Redcloak doesn't even bother saying Durkon's name when addressing him, just "dwarf". That's despite Durkon having treated him with respect during the talk.
And calling him by name as the conversation began.

Durkon watched RC order his goblins forward to die so their bodies would create a ramp to the breach in the Azure city walls. That act alone outstrips anything Durkon has done to goblinkind. I expect that from his vantage point high up on the wall/tower with Hinjo, he saw that.
Also, there might be some rule bending on if someone can draw out an instantaneous spell -- sorta loses the point for the spell being instantaneous in the first place, but all villains need to commit to their evil monologue. As Elan, or even Nale, might have reminded us.

Well, that is one enlarged dwarf making one big loud thud (landing) and one big loud thwack (hammer). I'm guessing the Good clerics will need to beat feet, given Xykon's +8 racial bonus to Listen checks (and Oona is probably no slouch, either). My thought as well. Expecting a "bug out" scene in the next strip.


Redcloak has just shown that he can smoke Durkon 1v1 with no problem. If there was ever a doubt, there should not be one now.

[Fyraltari]

What?
My thinking has nothing to do with her being a woman, she is effectively a follower of Durkon who he brought to a very dangerous situation against the advise of his party leader, I am pretty sure I would feel the exact same way if she was a male character - would you?

Would I feel the same way if the character didn’t belong to the category of people who had historically been submitted to such treatment as an expression of the prejudiced undercurrents still present in modern culture? Is that a serious question?

In any case I would still regard that as a complete waste of a good character.

[Snails]

Okay, so this was a little plan between Minrah and Durkon all along (see 1202 panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html)). Because it is not just Durkon missing from the ledge, Minrah followed Durkon down.


This is a non-RAW kind of Implosion in multiple ways. Which I like. By the rules, the time to death after the spell is first cast is unaffected by the level and Fort save of the target. But dramatically speaking, it is so much better this way.

[The_Weirdo]

I don’t know where things are going now, but my expectations of “Redcloak gets a redemption arc” just got a lot lower.

The main problem with redemption in this case is that it would necessitate a lot of rezzing and making of amends.

On both parts, really.

[Dausuul]

Yeah, but Redcloak asks Durkon how many he killed personally, and I think "on camera" we've only seen Redcloak kill, what? Two? The Hobgoblin administerer of the tests and the one goblin in SoD.
By the strictest definition - directly administering the killing blow or spell - Durkon has likely killed more than Redcloak.

But Durkon and Redcloak are not engaged in a scholarly analysis of kill counts. Redcloak is trying, yet again, to make himself out to be the righteous one. Durkon is not about to let him get away with that, and responds by aiming directly at Redcloak's hypocrisy: Redcloak has personally, deliberately ordered thousands of hobgoblins to their deaths (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), far more than Durkon has ever killed or caused to be killed. Redcloak's reaction shows that Durkon hit the mark.

There is also the fact that among the two goblins Redcloak has directly killed is his own baby brother. Durkon doesn't know that, of course, but it puts a whole lot of extra impact into his retort.

[pendell]

I'd take that wager, since RC was very conveniently out of the room so he couldn't figure out who had whisked away V when the Escape happened. RC has access to monster manuals, and knows what MitD is. If he says MitD doesn't have cleric levels, I'm inclined to believe him over random speculation that MitD actually has 18 levels of cleric and worships the Dark One as a Deus Ex Machina to resolve the plot.


To clarify, I don't believe the MITD worships the Dark One. The MITD is some variant of good alignment, and is incompatible with the Dark One.

I grant that Redcloak has access to Monster Manuals. When exactly was it indicated that, because of this knowledge, he knew exactly what the MITD was and what its power level is? We have that same access to the same books and, to my knowledge, we still don't know exactly what the MITD is after some six years of speculation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

do you suppose the MITD can cast ninth-level spells and is of a fourth quiddity? Maybe we don't need Redcloak at all. Nope. If we consider the MiTD threads, that MiTD is a creature would mean that it is made of the same quiddities as all of the other creatures on this world. Not seeing that as the path forward.


Also, as for "Redcloak redemption" ... plummeted to 10/90 after today. As Soon told Miko, redemption isn't for everyone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). For what it's worth, I don't think it is something that Reddie is actively seeking, unlike V who is. (Well, at least V is hoping to atone for that evil done, but is not sure if it is possible ...) The key difference is that V has taken that critical first step: V has admitted to being wrong.

[Fyraltari]

To clarify, I don't believe the MITD worships the Dark One. The MITD is some variant of good alignment, and is incompatible with the Dark One.

I grant that Redcloak has access to Monster Manuals. When exactly was it indicated that, because of this knowledge, he knew exactly what the MITD was and what its power level is? We have that same access to the same books and, to my knowledge, we still don't know exactly what the MITD is after some six years of speculation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
You forget that Redcloak knew MitD before Xykon had him shrouded in darkness.

[M.A.D]

Damn, that burn is so deep it would have earned Durkon approvals from Loki.

[dancrilis]

Would I feel the same way if the character didn’t belong to the category of people who had historically been submitted to such treatment as an expression of the prejudiced undercurrents still present in modern culture? Is that a serious question?

In any case I would still regard that as a complete waste of a good character.

Do you regard panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) as bad, because her death obviously went on to give motivation to Ian and resulted in him moving to the desert to make her proud (per the rest of that strip).

By putting woman on the 'can't be killed to advance the story of another' pedestal it effectively removes a whole load of stories about the impact of woman in the lives of those around them, for instance heroic sacrifice becomes solely the remit of men in scenarios where the story seeks to examine the impact on the survivors rather then being about the deceased.

[Ionathus]

By the strictest definition - directly administering the killing blow or spell - Durkon has likely killed more than Redcloak.

Nine, by our count. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617266-How-many-goblinoids-HAS-Durkon-killed)

Goodness gracious, there's a forum thread for everything isn't there? I'm half-surprised there isn't a killcount on the Number of Appearances thread or similar.

[Ionathus]

Do you regard panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) as bad, because her death obviously went on to give motivation to Ian and resulted in him moving to the desert to make her proud (per the rest of that strip).

By putting woman on the 'can't be killed to advance the story of another' pedestal it effectively removes a whole load of stories about the impact of woman in the lives of those around them, for instance heroic sacrifice becomes solely the remit of men in scenarios where the story seeks to examine the impact on the survivors rather then being about the deceased.

It's worth noting that Rich wrote Haley's backstory YEARS ago and has since said many things about how he regrets the treatment of women in this comic. Haley's mother would be part of that.

I have nothing against the motivating death of a loved one. I just prefer it to not always be the woman's job to die.

I'll restate what I said before: Rich wouldn't introduce Minrah just to kill her so early. And if he did, it would be about how SHE chose that path, rather than what lessons it taught Durkon about leadership.

And this is all a moot point, because she's died before and has gone on the record as not giving a crap about it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1162.html).

EDIT: Fyraltari also makes a good point about it being part of another female character's (Haley's) backstory, though I think there's still far more Woman-Dies-To-Motivate-Woman than there is Man-Dies-To-Motivate-Woman. Can you name any in the latter category? Genuinely curious: Spider-Gwen is all I can come up with.

[Fyraltari]

Do you regard panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) as bad, because her death obviously went on to give motivation to Ian and resulted in him moving to the desert to make her proud (per the rest of that strip).
No. Because
A) Haley's mother is barely a tertiary character.
B) This is in service to Haley's story, who is also a woman.
Mostly A, though.

I have no objection to spearholder of any kind getting shafted to advance the story, nor to posthumous characters existing to motivate other characters, the issue is with characters who have their own thing going on getting shafted for another character's benefit.

By putting woman on the 'can't be killed to advance the story of another' pedestal it effectively removes a whole load of stories about the impact of woman in the lives of those around them, for instance heroic sacrifice becomes solely the remit of men in scenarios where the story seeks to examine the impact on the survivors rather then being about the deceased.
Heroic sacrifice (and death in general) should be the conclusion of a character's own story, not a stepping stone to another's. It just has additionnal ugly implication when a female character gets killed to prod a male one.

EDIT: Also the "women in fridge" thing is much like the Bechdel Test, it happening in a story does not make the story sexist, but the trend is worrisome.

[Dausuul]

I grant that Redcloak has access to Monster Manuals. When exactly was it indicated that, because of this knowledge, he knew exactly what the MITD was and what its power level is? We have that same access to the same books and, to my knowledge, we still don't know exactly what the MITD is after some six years of speculation.
Redcloak knows what the MitD is, and we do not, because Redcloak has seen it in clear lighting, and we have not. The Monster Manual allows Redcloak to take what he's seen and say "I recognize this critter as X, and it has powers Y and Z."

(That is, of course, assuming MitD is from a Monster Manual. It might not be. As far as I know, Rich has never indicated that it's a 3E monster or even a D&D monster. All he has said is that he personally did not make it up for the comic.)

[St Fan]

Guys, guys, guys...

I cannot be the only one who thinks of Durkon's new hammer as "Mjölnir Junior", right?

Just think of GrailQuest's Excalibur Junior...

[KorvinStarmast]

You might be. Could just be a hammer of thunderbolts with a custom spell or two on it.

[Peelee]

I grant that Redcloak has access to Monster Manuals. When exactly was it indicated that, because of this knowledge, he knew exactly what the MITD was and what its power level is? We have that same access to the same books and, to my knowledge, we still don't know exactly what the MITD is after some six years of speculation.

Redcloak has a significant advantage over us in that he has seen what the MitD is while we have not.

Also, any resolution requiring a quiddity not of TDO's perverts the entire theme of the comic, so I don't put much stock in any theory the second that becomes a part of it.

[arimareiji]

Frankly I'm still interested in how the Dark One would feel about any of this. He's such a vague character and communicates directly so little that it could be interesting. And then of course there's our mysterious pal who kidnapped the paladins...This is allegedly the endgame setting up, so we're on a multitrack collision course. The question is just when and how.

I suspect he would applaud. A recent reread reminded me that when DO broke off contact with Loki after finding out about the Snarl, and Loki sent emissaries to try to explain how DO could help (presumably with something in it for DO), he melted them and anointed his own with the remains.

And indeed, I suspect Rich has had to do a lot of plotting/diagramming/etc to keep all the story threads he's drawing back together from becoming a snarl of their own. (^_~)

[Elves]

You're only trading into account one small part of the pacing. The comic is meant to be paced as both individual strips and an overall story. Each individual strip will end with some sort of punch, but when taken as a whole (the ultimate intended final product) the situation is resolved immediately. It's not a cliffhanger in the sense most people use it as. When read sequentially, it's not a cliffhanger at all.

It goes faster if you read it in a book, but the structure is the same. A cliffhanger at the end of a chapter in a book is still a cliffhanger, even though you can just turn the page. Primarily a cliffhanger is a way of keeping you engaged and getting you to turn that page, whether it's a second or a year in between.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Damn, that burn is so deep it would have earned Durkon approvals from Loki.

That burn is so hot it would've earned him approval from Hilgya.

[arimareiji]

I'll restate what I said before: Rich wouldn't introduce Minrah just to kill her so early. And if he did, it would be about how SHE chose that path, rather than what lessons it taught Durkon about leadership.

Not sure if you'll be glad or cheesed at another proposed reason Minrah dying again would be premature - she has to live to grieve for Belkar. I swear part of why Rich brought her in was to pair her off with Belkar.

[Dragonus45]

I always assumed that Thor's Might is just a reflavored Enlarge Person, which would make perfect sense for Minrah to cast. I didn't even realize people had other ideas for what it might be. As for the appearance of increasing more than it should by the rules, V's Mass Enlarge Person (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) did the same.

It is almost certainly a Righteous Might reskin, perhaps with a bit of extra flavor added on.



The main problem with redemption in this case is that it would necessitate a lot of rezzing and making of amends.

On both parts, really.

Sure, but I don't think RC could even afford to resurrect that many goblins, if they would even accept the spell.

[Peelee]

It goes faster if you read it in a book, but the structure is the same. A cliffhanger at the end of a chapter in a book is still a cliffhanger, even though you can just turn the page. Primarily a cliffhanger is a way of keeping you engaged and getting you to turn that page, whether it's a second or a year in between.

I have yet to read a book with a cliffhanger on the last page of a chapter which is revolved on the first page of the next chapter.. This is quite literally the next page in the middle of the chapter.

[pendell]

Redcloak knows what the MitD is, and we do not, because Redcloak has seen it in clear lighting, and we have not. The Monster Manual allows Redcloak to take what he's seen and say "I recognize this critter as X, and it has powers Y and Z."

(That is, of course, assuming MitD is from a Monster Manual. It might not be. As far as I know, Rich has never indicated that it's a 3E monster or even a D&D monster. All he has said is that he personally did not make it up for the comic.)

Okay, you've convinced me; I concede the point.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Redcloak has a significant advantage over us in that he has seen what the MitD is while we have not.
He was also there when MitD broke his toys, and presumably in many other times when MitD revealed even more characteristics about himself we have not been made privy of.


Also, any resolution requiring a quiddity not of TDO's perverts the entire theme of the comic, so I don't put much stock in any theory the second that becomes a part of it.
This. Whether it be of the "the Western Eastern gods are alive after a gazillion worlds" variety or "there is a spontaneous unannounced 5th quiddity", this idea that after all this, RC and TDO are going to be irrelevant to the resolution because Rich will just pull another set of gods out of thin air is laughable.

Grey Wolf

[JSSheridan]

How will the OotS ever be in a position of strength over RC after this?

They can't kill him, they won't torture him, time is against them

I think his duplicity against Xycon has to be revealed at some point, and he has to strike a deal with OotS

[ti'esar]

I'm sure people have said this already, considering this thread is already 7 pages long, but still:


Na as many
as ye

:smalleek: If Durkon had died yet again here, those would have been some fantastic last words.

[dancrilis]

I have no objection to spearholder of any kind getting shafted to advance the story, nor to posthumous characters existing to motivate other characters, the issue is with characters who have their own thing going on getting shafted for another character's benefit.

Heroic sacrifice (and death in general) should be the conclusion of a character's own story, not a stepping stone to another's. It just has additionnal ugly implication when a female character gets killed to prod a male one.


In this case we just disagree (which is fine).
I am thinking of a potential story were a parent has a difficult child and in the 40 minute mark of the movie. episode 4 of a series, the 300 page of a book etc they die to not only save the kid (who they save) but also going back and saving unrelated people afterwards but die in the aftermath of the rescue.
The first section of the work takes the kid from 5 to 25 (when the death occurs) and the remainder of the story takes them to 80, but the pivotal piece in the story is where the parent dies so that others could live and the kid who was always difficult (the main character) dealing with that and how it impacts their life.

Such a story might be complete garbage or a masterpiece renowned through the ages - who knows, but you would effectively have it be a untold story, or it it was then it would not feature a mother in the role of the parent unless maybe the child was a daughter (which could have knock on real world hiring impact if it was a book that then gets made into a movie etc).

Although on consideration Minrah dying and Durkon work of recalling out with her body to raise it would suit me fine for preserving Redcloak as a threat and having Durkon perhaps learn about the burden of leadership and keeping Minrah around (don't know if that would suit you or if you would still think it bad).


Are there any spells V would be likely to know that would remove Redcloak from the equation for a long period of time (long enough to prep for the fight with Xykon) without killing him?
Outside of potential custom ones probably not.

[Ionathus]

Not sure if you'll be glad or cheesed at another proposed reason Minrah dying again would be premature - she has to live to grieve for Belkar. I swear part of why Rich brought her in was to pair her off with Belkar.

That actually makes a ton of sense and I really like it. Not romantically, really - I don't know if that could really land for either of them and it'd feel a little contrived - but Minrah is a great way to show us what Belkar looks like to a new person who doesn't remember all the bad stuff he used to do.

Honestly from what Minrah has seen, Belkar is just snarky and competent (if bad against mind control). He hasn't screwed over the party or murdered innocents in a long time, and I think that paints him in a far different light.

Wonder if Minrah will have some "what the hell, guys??" moment where she realizes how differently the rest of the Order views Belkar.



Although on consideration Minrah dying and Durkon work of recalling out with her body to raise it would suit me fine for preserving Redcloak as a threat and having Durkon perhaps learn about the burden of leadership and keeping Minrah around (don't know if that would suit you or if you would still think it bad).

That actually sounds like a pretty good story beat: it allows Durkon and Minrah to reflect together on how the plan was reckless, and maybe Minrah loses a tiny bit of trust/respect for Durkon, and maybe Durkon still feels it was the right call, but it gives them some tension and allows them to not both be so monolithic.

I doubt it'll happen, but it'd serve them both if it did.

[Mr. Demiurge]

Are there any spells V would be likely to know that would potentially remove a high-level enemy cleric from the equation without actually killing him for a long enough period that he wouldn't be a factor when the Order confronts Xykon?

They can't kill Redcloak, so that makes things much more complicated than Redcloak's similar plan to remove an enemy asset, but it seems an awful waste to have Redcloak all alone, and the element of surprise hopelessly lost, with nothing gained when negotiations broke down. It feels like Durkon may have lost a golden opportunity by not at least floating this idea past Roy and having the rest of the party also waiting in the wings, making it clear that if Redcloak responded with violence it would at least be a chance for the rest of the party to move on him while he's isolated, with an understanding that if nothing worked in the first few rounds they would make a break for it before Xykon and the Hobgoblins intervene.

[bunsen_h]

Minrah sure knows how to make an entrance. Looks like she picked up something from spending the trip with Elan.

If she hadn't done the thing dramatically, it wouldn't have worked.


I think that the best way for the strip to fulfill it's thematic promise is for a different character to take leadership of the goblinoids and find a wake to make peace that doesn't involve trying to re-write the fabric of reality.

It may involve gouda.

[Darkone]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

[Peelee]

I think that the best way for the strip to fulfill it's thematic promise is for a different character to take leadership of the goblinoids and find a wake to make peace that doesn't involve trying to re-write the fabric of reality.It may involve gouda.


Ya know, that's just crazy enough to work.

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

That hadn't occurred to me, but you're spot on there. I suspect that may come up later.

[understatement]

Are there any spells V would be likely to know that would potentially remove a high-level enemy cleric from the equation without actually killing him for a long enough period that he wouldn't be a factor when the Order confronts Xykon?

They can't kill Redcloak, so that makes things much more complicated than Redcloak's similar plan to remove an enemy asset, but it seems an awful waste to have Redcloak all alone, and the element of surprise hopelessly lost, with nothing gained when negotiations broke down. It feels like Durkon may have lost a golden opportunity by not at least floating this idea past Roy and having the rest of the party also waiting in the wings, making it clear that if Redcloak responded with violence it would at least be a chance for the rest of the party to move on him while he's isolated, with an understanding that if nothing worked in the first few rounds they would make a break for it before Xykon and the Hobgoblins intervene.

It only takes a round for Xykon to teleport over, and then it'd be game over.

V could do some form of Grasping Hand, maybe? They'd still have to get in range first, and Redcloak might have some Still spell. I don't know.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The main problem with redemption in this case is that it would necessitate a lot of rezzing and making of amends.

On both parts, really.There are different kinds of redemption. One of the biggest problems for fixing OOTS world in that certain types of justice are contradictory.

I don't see this story ending with a final accounting of everyone's sins, I see the ending as a world where counting sins starts at all. If Redcloak stops doing evil stuff, that doesn't make him good (by most definitions), but it does make him better.

[Fyraltari]

"the Western gods are alive after a gazillion worlds"
Marduk does have a track record.

snip
Drop the strawman, please.

[The_Weirdo]

It is almost certainly a Righteous Might reskin, perhaps with a bit of extra flavor added on.




Sure, but I don't think RC could even afford to resurrect that many goblins, if they would even accept the spell.

Sure. But the SG would need to do its part as well. Or are the people that went around slaughtering villages blameless?

[Mr. Demiurge]

It only takes a round for Xykon to teleport over, and then it'd be game over.

That's true, but that's a problem even with the plan as it now stands. Minrah has to use at least one combat round to wack Redcloak with Mjolnir before the two of them beat a hasty retreat. What if, while she was doing that, V was also present and using that same round to cast Grasping Hand, as you say? Or Hold Monster, or Dominate, or whatever spell would allow them to snatch up Redcloak and put him somewhere where they can deal with Xykon without his high-level cleric support.

He might make his saving throw, and it might be just one round before they have to clear out with the same loss of surprise for no gain, but it certainly feels like it would have been worth a try.

[KorvinStarmast]

That burn is so hot it would've earned him approval from Hilgya. Pound for pound one of the best posts in this thread. Top 5, for sure. :smallsmile:


Not sure if you'll be glad or cheesed at another proposed reason Minrah dying again would be premature - she has to live to grieve for Belkar. I swear part of why Rich brought her in was to pair her off with Belkar. Not betting against.

How will the OotS ever be in a position of strength over RC after this? That's not their objective, though. They need his spell. Being in a position where he will listen is their objective. Still a work in progress.

If Redcloak stops doing evil stuff, that doesn't make him good (by most definitions), but it does make him better. And it's at least progress, char dev wise. Not betting the over. He said a few strips back that he's pushed all of his chips onto the table).

He is literally all in. v(Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

[Marsala]

Besides Durkon's response, note that Redcloak doesn't even bother saying Durkon's name when addressing him, just "dwarf". That's despite Durkon having treated him with respect during the talk.

In fairness to Redcloak, I don't think Durkon gave him his name. He could have still been more respectful, perhaps by calling him "cleric" or "cleric of Thor".

[dancrilis]

Drop the strawman, please.

In order for it to be a strawman I would have take your point, misrepresent it and then attack that misrepresentation to claim some sort of 'victory' - I don't see how I have done any of that.

So perhaps I have missed your point, my assumption was you had no interest in stories dealing with the survivors (which is fine), I thought this based on the following (which I responded to):


I have no objection to spearholder of any kind getting shafted to advance the story, nor to posthumous characters existing to motivate other characters, the issue is with characters who have their own thing going on getting shafted for another character's benefit.

Heroic sacrifice (and death in general) should be the conclusion of a character's own story, not a stepping stone to another's. It just has additionnal ugly implication when a female character gets killed to prod a male one.

Perhaps the issue is I don't know what you mean by spearholder (I assumed you meant some virtual randomer in the background but not an important character).

I should note that saying 'that's a strawman' can often be a strawman arguement if it effective is used to: take a point (whatever point might have been made), misrepresent it (by saying it is a strawman) and then attack that misrepresentation to claim some sort of 'victory' (such as ha you had to strawman my arguement).

[Jasdoif]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...Pretty sure they're not "peace talks" since the Dark One's army wasn't attacking anyone; it was more like the Dark One threatening to sic an army on them if they didn't meet his demands.

More to your point...Redcloak portrays the entire Plan as "turnabout is fair play" for the Dark One; I don't think Durkon specifically is going to get much acknowledgement from them.

[understatement]

That's true, but that's a problem even with the plan as it now stands. Minrah has to use at least one combat round to wack Redcloak with Mjolnir before the two of them beat a hasty retreat. What if, while she was doing that, V was also present and using that same round to cast Grasping Hand, as you say? Or Hold Monster, or Dominate, or whatever spell would allow them to snatch up Redcloak and put him somewhere where they can deal with Xykon without his high-level cleric support.

He might make his saving throw, and it might be just one round before they have to clear out with the same loss of surprise for no gain, but it certainly feels like it would have been worth a try.

Redcloak can likely make any Will saving throws (unless he pulls a Hilgya).

How much damage did Minrah do, anyway? Just curious.

[Ionathus]

Redcloak can likely make any Will saving throws (unless he pulls a Hilgya).

How much damage did Minrah do, anyway? Just curious.

Judging from the lack of red or black damage marks on Redcloak, I'd wager somewhere north of "enough damage to break concentration" and somewhere south of "meaningful damage to end the fight."

I think the implication is that Redcloak isn't truly hurt (much), just shocked, and they need to get out of there.

[Peelee]

How much damage did Minrah do, anyway? Just curious.

At least 1.

[Dragonus45]

I do not know whether this has been mentioned anywhere, but there is a deep, painful irony on Redcloak's actions here.
Simply put,
if Durkon had actually died from Redcloak's little gambit here, he would have died the EXACT SAME WAY that the Dark One himself died: peacefully arriving to attempt negotations but viciously murdered in the middle of the peace talks because his opposite number never actually respected him. The only reason he didn't is because he (rightfully) planned for a possible betrayal. I am wondering if that will ever occur to either RD or his god...

Nah, it will never really occur to him I don't think. We as the readers will notice the irony, but the truth about RC here is that he is just to far gone to really be that self aware. To dedicated to The Plan at all costs, and to far along in his belief that nothing nothing he can do can be wrong so long as he does it for the "correct" reasons. Thor's clerics might get to enjoy a special custom named Righteous Might but RC's most special ability is Righteous Self Delusion.

[Fish]

We should've seen it coming.

Roy says (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html) "Has anyone seen Durkon?" but he didn't say "Has anyone seen Durkon or Minrah?" Plus, Durkon and Minrah were working together on that Sending spell to Redcloak, so they were in on it together from the start.

[Psyren]

It's bad taste because it resulted in a fake cliffhanger. For all audience knows, implosion is instant. Then suddenly by fiat, it isn't.

Implosion is not instantaneous. The death effect it causes is, but the spell itself is not.


At least 1.

Hmm, here's a thought exercise - 1 damage would be a DC of 20. If we knew Redcloak's concentration mod, we could calculate the damage Minrah dealt based on that.

[The_Weirdo]

At least 1.

I mean, you're right, but that's a bit of an understatement, don't you think? :smallbiggrin:

[understatement]

At least 1.

This gives me flashbacks to the Exarch's level.

[Jasdoif]

At least 1.Not necessarily! Even if damage reduction and energy resistance reduced it to zero, violent motion (like being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer) still calls for Concentration checks.

[Peelee]

This gives me flashbacks to the Exarch's level.
I aim to please!:smallwink:

Not necessarily! Even if damage reduction and energy resistance reduced it to zero, violent motion (like being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer) still calls for Concentration checks.
Dangit, I even went through the list of things that cause concentration checks and figured the other ones didn't make the cut.

[Bleeper]

Anyone else seeing the "Break Down" as a reference to the "Stop. Hammer time!" in the last panel? (MC Hammer, Can't Touch This) Took me a minute, but I genuinely laughed out loud at the subtlety and restraint of the whole thing.

[Grey Watcher]

Anyone else seeing the "Break Down" as a reference to the "Stop. Hammer time!" in the last panel? (MC Hammer, Can't Touch This) Took me a minute, but I genuinely laughed out loud at the subtlety and restraint of the whole thing.

I have no idea if it was intentional, but love it.

[The_Weirdo]

Not necessarily! Even if damage reduction and energy resistance reduced it to zero, violent motion (like being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer) still calls for Concentration checks.

Now all you need to do is convince me that being abruptly knocked to the ground by a hammer qualifies as violent motion. :smallbiggrin:

[Rogar Demonblud]

He is literally all in. v(Darnit, I've been reading old bits, now I can't remember the sequence where he tells someone he's talking to that he had pushed all of his chips onto the table. Grr.

IMS, when he was interrogating O-Chul on the tower.

[Jaziggy]

So do you think Minrah followed Durkon without his knowledge or was Durkon's escape plan? I tend to think they were working together- hence Durkon's unwillingness to go inside when RC invite him.

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

[Mandor]

I admit, I'd not even considered the possibility that Implosion would prevent resurrection.
It makes sense if it really does compress you down into a singularity and not just crush you leaving a puddle of gore, though.

But these are the things I overlook when the last time I played AD&D was with sourcebooks bought in the mid-1980's.
Implosion didn't even exist as a spell back then.
Hell, "cleric spells" only went up to 7th lvl as the highest possible spell level, back then.

So many things I still have to adapt to.

On the other hand, I also don't read this with any expectation that it formally line up with rules.
I just want a good story. :smallsmile: [EDIT: and I'm TOTALLY getting one.]

[Sapphire Guard]

"Nae as many as ye..."

Right now, this is my contender for best line in OOTS.

[ZiggyGuy]

Your god won't be happy with you here, Wrong Eye...

And interesting, so either this is a single round and our (main) cleric hasn't rolled his save yet... or this world has a different Implosion than we're used to. Either work for me =P

Also, this proves Implosion in thie context does -not- leave a body behind, as some called before. I was on the other side of that guess, so I was just proved wrong XD

[Arin]

To put my whole 2 copper pieces in on the mechanics debate, I'd assert that Minrah likely had a readied action that went off when Redcloak cast the spell, that Minrah's casting of Thor's Might is an ability from the hammer that can be triggered as part of an attack action, and that Durkon never even had to make the Fortitude save against Implosion.

The pain and battle damage are just DM flavor.

Was that Rich's intent? Who knows. But it's plausible. ;)

On the much more interesting subject on where we're going from here, I... just realized I have no idea. :) I thought I had it all figured out by using Elan's Guide to Narrative Drama, because

the MitD Suggestion spell from Xykon only gets to apply if Redcloak turns on him, so it seemed likely that the Order would convince him. But I kinda forgot Redcloak's plan is to turn on Xykon anyway once TDO controls the Gate, so... big wow.

[RMS Oceanic]

#Let the power of Thor smite from hiiigheeeeeer...#

[Turin_19]

Team minrah!

[Elves]

I have yet to read a book with a cliffhanger on the last page of a chapter which is revolved on the first page of the next chapter..
It's one of the more common and cliched things done in mysteries, thrillers, action stories, etc.

[nocoolnamejim]

Saw some speculations in the earlier pages on Minrah's level to cast Thor's Might.

Anyone floated the possibility that the spell might be one that the hammer itself can trigger for it's wielder? Basically that Minrah used an ability of a magic item rather than casting it herself?

[Babale]

.. but it would also be a learning experience for Durkon about listening to his party leader and the burdens of command about how leading yourself to death (as Roy did against Xykon) is easier then leading others to their deaths (as Roy did with Durkon) and it might be nice for Durkon to learn that also

The most ironic part of this statement is that Durkon just got through character arc where he learned to STOP being so passive; you essentially want him to unlearn that lesson....

[dancrilis]

The most ironic part of this statement is that Durkon just got through character arc where he learned to STOP being so passive; you essentially want him to unlearn that lesson....

Not so much unlearn it but instead learn that not every idea is a good idea and that listening to others criticism before acting can be helpful (and it is possible that he did that and discarded the points Roy made as he didn't consider them valid enough), him acting isn't the issue but if he had spoken to Roy again first then Roy might have highlighted the plan to knock out Xykon first and thereby ruin The Plan and so Redcloak would have fewer options and a possibly weaker hand on whatever it was he wanted (or not Roy doesn't have the best track record of listening to people either - although he is getting better).

[Thales]

That's a very well-rendered visual effect for Implosion on Durkon. Sells the crushing and distorting force of the spell rather viscerally. Good job on the Giant for continuing to make the most of the style and medium!

[Peelee]

It's one of the more common and cliched things done in mysteries, thrillers, action stories, etc.

Then please enlighten me. Which specific mysteries, thrillers, action stories, etc.?

[Ruck]

What?
My thinking has nothing to do with her being a woman, she is effectively a follower of Durkon who he brought to a very dangerous situation against the advise of his party leader, I am pretty sure I would feel the exact same way if she was a male character - would you?

"I'm fine with reducing a woman character to a plot device for a male character, because I assume I would be fine with the reverse in some hypothetical situation that is not the situation we are discussing" is not the defense you think it is.


In this case we just disagree (which is fine).
I am thinking of a potential story were a parent has a difficult child and in the 40 minute mark of the movie. episode 4 of a series, the 300 page of a book etc they die to not only save the kid (who they save) but also going back and saving unrelated people afterwards but die in the aftermath of the rescue.
The first section of the work takes the kid from 5 to 25 (when the death occurs) and the remainder of the story takes them to 80, but the pivotal piece in the story is where the parent dies so that others could live and the kid who was always difficult (the main character) dealing with that and how it impacts their life.

Such a story might be complete garbage or a masterpiece renowned through the ages - who knows, but you would effectively have it be a untold story, or it it was then it would not feature a mother in the role of the parent unless maybe the child was a daughter (which could have knock on real world hiring impact if it was a book that then gets made into a movie etc).

Again, if you have to defend your point by inventing complex hypothetical scenarios unrelated to the one we're discussing, it's a weak point.


Durkon doesn't know everything that Redcloak's gotten up to, so I think when he says "na as many as ye" he is referring to all the goblins on the planet who will die as a direct result of Redcloak's refusal to help.

I think that's possible, but Durkon does at least know that Redcloak led the hobgoblin army to battle at Azure City, and probably counts any deaths of goblins there as on him.


When exactly was it indicated that, because of this knowledge, he knew exactly what the MITD was and what its power level is?

Start of Darkness, p.88, panel 6.


So, like I said in the thread for the last page of the comic, I'm pretty sure Redcloak's plan has not been revealed.

What plan are you talking about? Is it a different plan from The Plan?


I'm of the opinion there are several red herrings going on in the story (for example, Odin's Prophecy about Durkon).

Again, what are you talking about and how was Odin's prophecy a red herring?


So do you think Minrah followed Durkon without his knowledge or was Durkon's escape plan? I tend to think they were working together- hence Durkon's unwillingness to go inside when RC invite him.

Unrelated: the hammer is named Totally Head Obliterating Righteous Smash Hammer or T.H.O.R.S. Hammer for short.

Definitely they planned it; panel 4 in #1202 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html) in hindsight seems like they are referring to just that.

Also unrelated, since it's come up a lot this thread and no one's mentioned this yet, I thought we settled on Durkon's new hammer being a Hammer of Thunderbolts.


Anyone else seeing the "Break Down" as a reference to the "Stop. Hammer time!" in the last panel? (MC Hammer, Can't Touch This) Took me a minute, but I genuinely laughed out loud at the subtlety and restraint of the whole thing.

Oooo, I did not, but that's pretty good. The titles here often carry a second meaning, but I hadn't thought of anything beyond the obvious breakdown in negotiations.

[TheNecrocomicon]

As awesome as the dynamic-entry-with-a-divinely-empowered-hammer was, this now worries me that one of them (probably Minrah) isn't making it out of this scrape alive in exchange for that. Or, at least, will overplay their proverbial hand and get captured.

On the other hand, Redcloak's Implosion spell has now clearly fizzled and been lost, so however that happens, it's probably due to something else that doesn't make someone implode into oblivion. Still, levels being what they are, Redcloak probably retains enough power to smoke both Durkon and Minrah without much problem if the rest of the Order doesn't arrive and start the big ol' battle much earlier than would be narratively expected.

[Fyraltari]

Sure. But the SG would need to do its part as well. Or are the people that went around slaughtering villages blameless?
They're dead, though.

In order for it to be a strawman I would have take your point, misrepresent it and then attack that misrepresentation to claim some sort of 'victory' - I don't see how I have done any of that.


So perhaps I have missed your point, my assumption was you had no interest in stories dealing with the survivors (which is fine), I thought this based on the following (which I responded to):
You've acted as if my position were "It's sexist to kill a female character in a way that has an impact on a male character therefore it should never happen", when my position is "Killing a female character with her own arc solely to give motivation to a male character as opposed to it being the conclusion of her own narrative arc reduces her to a plot device in service to the male character's story, which is a problem because there is a whole history of women being considered as having value only in relation to men."



Perhaps the issue is I don't know what you mean by spearholder (I assumed you meant some virtual randomer in the background but not an important character).
Spearholder is a term from classical theater, it refers to a character who is only there to fill the scene a little (in tragedies they are often soldiers escorting the more important characters hence the name) and is lucky to have a line or two. In a broader sense it refers to the vast massof individuals in a story who aren't so much a character as a function : the fleeing civilian, the prison guard, the dead mom, etc.


We should've seen it coming.
Not to toot my own horn but a lot of people saw it coming, ever since Minrah and durkon disappeared from the group.

Your god won't be happy with you here, Wrong Eye...

I doubt that.