Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Wraith]

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*

The Custodes don't even care. Nobody gets near the Throne in any way, shape or form that even remotely resembles 'a threat'. Even they don't know what's going on until the closing act of The Carrion Throne, and then they mostly turn up as the 'Scorched Earth' policy. The idea of Xenos in the throne room? Very funny, tell us another one. Even with the (spoilered) event at the end, there's still 100 more Custodes stood mere feet away from the Throne, and they're still so far away from Crowl that he can't even see them when the threat is neutralised.


They can't handle it. They never will. Sooner or later she will eat them all, unless they find a permanent solution, and if she doesn't then the awakening dynasties will. Getting the Emperor up and saccing him on the Silent King so he can satiate his xenophobia on tomb worlds is pretty much the best scenario for Eldars atm.

Waking up the Emperor is a VERY short-term solution, at best. Let's say he gets up and, no matter how unlikely it sounds, he kicks Chaos' butt out of the galaxy - who do you think he's going to come after next, baring in mind that he has already once stated that the Eldar civilisation is dead and that he intends to assimilate the webway into Imperial control? After all, as much as it sucks that the Infinity Gate is forever closed, the Imperium now knows that there are more gates nearby - Vulkan fell into one, and Inquisitor Draco has another on his starship ready to go!

Keeping the Emperor down and having a comparatively weak Primarch at the helm is a far better solution - especially when that Primarch owes you a bunch of favours.


On a slightly different note, what happens if a Blank ends up in Nurgle's Garden or Tzeentch's Maze? Or any of the other Chaos Realms? Do the physical structures fall apart or something?

That kinda depends on what or where these places are.

Are they pure warpstuff, top to bottom? if so, the Blank dies very quickly - they might be immune to psychic powers and the effects of the warp, but they also need to breath and preferably not explosively decompress by stepping into empty space where a mindscape ought to be.

Are they walking on a demon world which is controlled by the will of one of the Gods - weird, twisted and warping, but there's actually dirt and soil there beneath it all? In which case they project their null 'bubble' around them and make a little space that, while they are standing on it, can't be manipulated psychically. Or possibly - if they're less than an Omega-Null level Blank - it can only be manipulated very crudely and slowly, because Blankness can be overcome by a sufficiently powerful Psyker/Entity with time and persistence.

Or the entity in question controls the world around the bubble and makes it open up into a 10-mile-deep pit or a lake of acid, so that the whole thing drops into it and the Blank dies from that.

Or a Chaos Space Marine turns up and just boltguns their head off, because why not?

Essentially, if you're walking through the Garden/Labyrinth/Whatever then you're probably dead as soon as Nurgle/Tzeentch/Whoever decides that they're done playing with you - either that or you are one of their favoured servants already. Or you're Grand-Master Draigo, who makes his own arrangements.

[Gareth3]

Thinking about things to do with the Emperor, the most prominent one has been that he dies and his soul becomes a warp entity. There's also the option of putting him in a new body, the equivalent of a Wraithlord or a clone or whatever. I've only seen that option in the Inquisitor game. The funny thing is that if you do the Necron thing to him, you get both. An immortal metal body with a perfect emulation of the emperor's mind, and the soul released as if he had died. Obviously in this setting the soul Emperor and the mind Emperor immediately start trying to kill each other.

[noob]

Thinking about things to do with the Emperor, the most prominent one has been that he dies and his soul becomes a warp entity. There's also the option of putting him in a new body, the equivalent of a Wraithlord or a clone or whatever. I've only seen that option in the Inquisitor game. The funny thing is that if you do the Necron thing to him, you get both. An immortal metal body with a perfect emulation of the emperor's mind, and the soul released as if he had died. Obviously in this setting the soul Emperor and the mind Emperor immediately start trying to kill each other.

It is in which inquisitor game?
Also if the emperor became a warp entity it would probably be even more devastating to the setting than if the emperor walked the world again.(the power of the thousand initial souls(which was crazy on its own) + the power of all the sacrifices to the emperor(all psychers) + the power of all the people who died in the service of the emperor(really tons of them))
Maybe the scariness of warp emperor could be enough justification even for xenos to try to at least repair the golden torturing life support device.

[Thragka]

I think that's the old Specialist-Games-era Inquisitor tabletop RPG rulebook, which was a forerunner to Dark Heresy.

[Cheesegear]

I think that's the old Specialist-Games-era Inquisitor tabletop RPG rulebook, which was a forerunner to Dark Heresy.

The more obvious game is Inquisitor (2018), a mediocre Diablo-clone.

[Thragka]

The more obvious game is Inquisitor (2018), a mediocre Diablo-clone.

Derp, forgot about that even though I've played it! (Actually I've found it can be quite mindlessly relaxing after a long day to run around a copy-paste environment exploding cultists and plaguebearers by mashing the psychic attack button.)

Edit: I thought of the Inquisitor RPG because the piece of fiction that opens the rulebook relays a possible founding of the Inquisition, as various go-getters try to figure out the best way to improve over the Golden Throne as a stop-gap life support system for the Emperor, and quickly start polarising and splitting into factions about what their goals and methods will be.

[hamishspence]

Edit: I thought of the Inquisitor RPG because the piece of fiction that opens the rulebook relays a possible founding of the Inquisition, as various go-getters try to figure out the best way to improve over the Golden Throne as a stop-gap life support system for the Emperor, and quickly start polarising and splitting into factions about what their goals and methods will be.I'm wondering how that scene goes with The Beast Arises series, Specifically, which of those Inquisitors, if any, is:

Sindermann, head of the Ordo Malleus. After all, he was around in the Heresy, so it seems to me like the intent is that he eventually became one of the founding Inquisitors.

[Gareth3]

I thought of the Inquisitor RPG because the piece of fiction that opens the rulebook relays a possible founding of the Inquisition, as various go-getters try to figure out the best way to improve over the Golden Throne as a stop-gap life support system for the Emperor, and quickly start polarising and splitting into factions about what their goals and methods will be.

Yes, that's where I came across the Emperor's new body idea.

[Cheesegear]

...so it seems to me like the intent is that he eventually became one of the founding Inquisitors.

Arvida/Janus
Severian
Tylos Rubio
The Nemean
A Raven Guard
Fyodor Stormgren
Fel Zharost

It's unclear whether Garviel Loken counts as the eighth 'Founder', since he explicitly refused.

[LansXero]

Arvida/Janus
Severian
Tylos Rubio
The Nemean
A Raven Guard
Fyodor Stormgren
Fel Zharost

It's unclear whether Garviel Loken counts as the eighth 'Founder', since he explicitly refused.

Wasn't he just told to restore the Remembracers but as ... Interrogators now? Maybe there is a link there.

[Wraith]

Wasn't he just told to restore the Remembracers but as ... Interrogators now? Maybe there is a link there.

Cheesegear has mixed up his Ordos. The seven listed above - as well as others including Remembrancers Euphrati Keeler, Kyril Sinderman, Lemual Garmon and Sister of Silence Amendera Kendel - were all recruited by Malcador to be his 'new' Agents, however they were split up and the Space Marines were supposed to go on to become the eight Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.

It is yet possible that some of them - as well as non-Pskyers like Loken - instead became Inquisitors, but so far (and especially according to The Buried Dagger which names most of the Grey Knights) all signs are suggesting that only the humans became the first Inquisitors.

[hamishspence]

When I look up the scene from Inquisitor - two are named - "Moriana" and "Promeus" (Moriana is a young-woman with white hair, Promeus is deep voiced and speaks slowly - both of them would like to get the Emperor off the Throne) - and two are not - one with an "aged", "cracked" voice, who wants to keep the Emperor on the Throne, and his compatriot, who is "hawk-nosed" and "sharp-nosed".

[Cheesegear]

however they were split up and the Space Marines were supposed to go on to become the eight Grand Masters of the Grey Knights.

Pre-Siege, Malcador tells 8 of the Knights-Errant to bail on the fight, 'cause they'll be needed afterwards. Of the 8 Chosen, only Loken told Malcador 'No.' Loken was not going to sit out of the Siege of Terra, and he was going with Garro.

So there's an unknown 8th Master of the Grey Knights, who could theoretically be anyone, since Loken's slot is probably open. I don't see him surviving the Siege.


It is yet possible that some of them - as well as non-Pskyers like Loken - instead became Inquisitors...

Loken is a latent Psyker. Hinted way back when, after he survived Istvaan III and became Cerberus, and basically confirmed during the Siege of Terra.
My guess is that Horus vs. Emperor will be retconned one, final time, and Loken will stand between The Emperor and Horus, at the End Time.

[LeSwordfish]

My guess is that Horus vs. Emperor will be retconned one, final time, and Loken will stand between The Emperor and Horus, at the End Time.

They've already-
confirmed that Ollianus Pius's story is not as it was previously believed - there's definitely scope for someone to take his place....I was there, when Horus killed the Emperor.

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

[Wraith]

Pre-Siege, Malcador tells 8 of the Knights-Errant to bail on the fight, 'cause they'll be needed afterwards. Of the 8 Chosen, only Loken told Malcador 'No.' Loken was not going to sit out of the Siege of Terra, and he was going with Garro.

So not Inquisitors then, which was the original question. :smalltongue:

Of the 8 Grand Masters, so far 5 of them are confirmed and of the other 3 certain details have been confirmed that rules out Loken:

Ogen (Probably Raven Guard, likely Balsar Kurthuri or Antaka Cyvaan)
Yotun (Definitely a Space Wolf, possibly Fyodor Stromgren)
Khyros (Probably a Night Lord, and probably their Chief-Librarian Fel Zharost - though personally I still hold out hope that Khyros is actually Jago Sevatarion because I want there to be more Sevatar after the Heresy)


Loken is a latent Psyker. Hinted way back when, after he survived Istvaan III and became Cerberus, and basically confirmed during the Siege of Terra.

Fair enough. I haven't read Siege of Terra yet, and until then like you said it was only hinted with other possibilities - such as being visited by the Watchers - still on the table.


My guess is that Horus vs. Emperor will be retconned one, final time, and Loken will stand between The Emperor and Horus, at the End Time.

That would be a great book-end to the series. Loken being both the first and last Lunar Wolf loyalist to play a big role is a nice image.

[Cheesegear]

That would be a great book-end to the series. Loken being both the first and last Lunar Wolf loyalist to play a big role is a nice image.

I really appreciate that when the Siege of Terra happens, Loken puts his colours back on. Going from a Knight-Errant, back to a Luna Wolf, to fight the Sons of Horus.

[Wraith]

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

You're better off looking at the Siege of Terra books. In the Horus Heresy, the Imperial Fists are still on Terra and aren't involved in much that happens up to The Solar War, when the Sol system is finally invaded. That and The First Wall are the first really IF-centric stories, so you might want to start there.

When they do appear in the Horus Heresy, it's usually in the short stories and the audio dramas, and in those the Imperial Fists tend to be extras or, in some cases, as antagonists such as in The Outcast Dead.
They appear in several of the Nathaniel Garro stories when he ends up stuck between Malcador's orders and Dorn's defiance. Especially in Burden of Duty, wherein Garro sneaks aboard the Phalanx and tries to recruit an IF codicier to the Knight-Errant, only to be met by Dorn telling him on no uncertain terms will he tolerate such meddling with his Legion.

The next best source is probably anything to do with Sigismund, the IF First Captain. There's several audio dramas about his exploits - The Crimson Fist and Templar - and he's pretty good to read about because he is at times both an exemplary Imperial Fist and an awful one so you get to see what he does that's good, and how his brothers react to him doing things they dislike.

Or better yet, read the War of the Beast series - it takes place shortly after the Heresy, but features lots of Imperial Fists and their descendants working together - The Last Wall in particular feeling somewhat like the Legion they used to be for.... spoilered reasons.

[Cheesegear]

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

Unfortunately, the Imperial Fists - as a Legion - sit out the vast majority of the Heresy. Barely ever showing up. Being as they're sitting on Terra, fortifying it, basically doing nothing from Istvaan III all the way to the Siege. Some, occaisionally feature as background characters in other peoples' stories. Alexis Polux - the Crimson Fist - shows up inside Unremembered Empire, and plays a major role in Pharos.
Sigismund shows up regularly in other peoples' stories - specifically Garro's. And of course he's in Mechanicum.

But ultimately anything that the Imperial Fists do throughout the Heresy, is via character-driven short stories. Again, because Imperial Fists don't do anything during the Heresy.

The first major role the Imperial Fists have in the entire Heresy, is Praetorian of Dorn - Book 39... There aren't any others.

Siege of Terra happens:
Dorn is a muppet.
Sigismund is heavily Worf'd. These guys are a big deal you guys, look, they beat up Sigismund! ...Sigismund proceeds to get beaten on three or four more times by different adversaries. Sigismund was even retconned to lose the duel vs. Kharn. But it's okay, 'cause that duel was changed to be Eidolon instead. No, idiots. The point of the duel on Terra was that Sigismund could beat Marked Kharn. Kharn! Not some loser nobody cares about. Sigismund is supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe as an old man with Chosen!Abaddon and not lose the fight instantly.* :smallsigh:
Templar; "Hey Kharn, maybe if you fought with more discipline..."
Siege; Kharn goes full bad-anime. "I know how to beat Sigismund, even less discipline!"
...Guess we're gonna ignore what John French wrote, I guess.

...We quickly realise that during the Siege the 'Fists can't be written competently 'cause then the story doesn't happen. *headdesk*
So much for that.

*Talon of Horus

[LansXero]

U
Siege of Terra happens:
Dorn is a muppet.

Always was.


Sigismund is heavily Worf'd. These guys are a big deal you guys, look, they beat up Sigismund! ...Sigismund proceeds to get beaten on three or four more times by different adversaries. Sigismund was even retconned to lose the duel vs. Kharn. But it's okay, 'cause that duel was changed to be Eidolon instead. No, idiots. The point of the duel on Terra was that Sigismund could beat Marked Kharn. Kharn! Not some loser nobody cares about. Sigismund is supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe as an old man with Chosen!Abaddon and not lose the fight instantly.* :smallsigh:

The bit in Solar War where his friend has to die for him doesn't count, he was like what, 20:1? And he rams fkin Fulgrim too so you cant expect him to win that one.

The part where he is made The Emperor's Champion is yet to come. The real problem is not his actual depiction (scary as **** to face, but so badly outnumbered it barely matters) but the fact that most named characters are either dead or have left.


Siege; Kharn goes full bad-anime. "I know how to beat Sigismund, even less discipline!"
...Guess we're gonna ignore what John French wrote, I guess.


Kharn is extremely well disciplined. The rest of his Legion at this point are animals, up to even running in all fours like gorillas. He remains the sanest even though he is always at the thickest fighting and has the same implants as everybody else. There has been a steady degradation of his sanity of course, but seeing book after book how much worse the rest of the world eaters are, its remarkable.



...We quickly realise that during the Siege the 'Fists can't be written competently 'cause then the story doesn't happen. *headdesk*
So much for that.

Sort of. Their doctrine isn't compelling; the Khan put it best: they shelter behind void shields and meters thick walls while the rest of Terra dies around them. That stoic inaction is good for last stands and heroic defiance but can hardly carry a narrative on its own.

Which isnt to say they haven't had their moments. Dorn bashing Fulgrim at the walls was great, and ofc there is Camba Diaz :'(. But I agree that if anyone has shone during the siege, it's been, oddly, the WS.

Dorn: Khan, let the civilians get ****ed
Khan: Even if the Emperor told me to do so, I wouldnt. Sanguinius, will I die doing this?
Sanguinius: Probably.
Khan: But will I save lives?
Sanguinius: Definitvely.
Khan: Then I ride. See you Dorn, you cant bottle the storm.

[Wraith]

Kharn is extremely well disciplined. The rest of his Legion at this point are animals, up to even running in all fours like gorillas. He remains the sanest even though he is always at the thickest fighting and has the same implants as everybody else. There has been a steady degradation of his sanity of course, but seeing book after book how much worse the rest of the world eaters are, its remarkable.

Two of my favourite depictions of Khârn come when he isn't murdering people, and when he is actively trying to avoid it. Kind of.

In Chosen of Khorne, he does the 'Sherlock-scan' thing of his enemies, imagining the most brutal and blood-soaked way of dispatching them... And then resists it, because it's slower than just stabbing them once in the head, and in a protracted fight he would be wounded and thus slowed down from making his next kill.

In Trials of Azrael, Khârn comes face-to-face to the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels and... has a conversation with him. I mean, it's short and insulting, but Khârn clearly remembers the Dark Angels he has killed in the past - specifically recognising Azrael's helmet - and they duel sarcastically with each other for a minute before they duel martially. Even then, Khârn starts off 'slow' and ramps up the fight over time - he holds himself back because it makes better sport/because he doesn't care enough to just wipe Azrael out in one second flat.

Khârn's brutality is limitless, but he always starts from the beginning and accelerates it according to who he needs to fight rather than living as a frantic and endlessly raving. Given that he hears Khorne's voice directly in his head, he arguably has more willpower and self-discipline than any other Astartes to ignore it.

[Cheesegear]

But I agree that if anyone has shone during the siege, it's been, oddly, the WS.

I think the White Scars have come out the best during the entire 50-book run.
*Checks who wrote the White Scars' storyline*.
Oh, look. One of my favourite current authors at BL. Funny that.

[LansXero]

And its not even the usual fanwank of overpowered bs; Jubal dies but what a show does he put up against Abaddon no less; Yesugei likewise before the siege; the guy that gets stuck in the Eternity Port is just the best, except for Camba Diaz but then Diaz knew it would've been for nothing. And the Khan, even though he almost fkin dies and is in way over his head most of the time, still shines through.

[Mordokai]

So, here's a question that may border on heretical, so please, consider contacting the Inquisitor only after you've answered it :smalltongue:

As the story goes, the Emperor held himself back in the fight with Horus because he had trouble fighting his favourite son. However, when Guilliman is resurrected and has his little talk with his "father", we learn that Big E never saw primarchs as sons... that was just a convenient cover story for... morale's sake, I guess? Optics? Doesn't really matter. We learn from Roboute that Emperor always considered primarchs more as tools.

So if we take that story at face value... why did Emperor held himself back? Could it be that Horus actually gave him a run for his money? He was a conduit for Chaos Undivided at that point, after all... that's bound to give even Emperor some problems.

[LansXero]

So, here's a question that may border on heretical, so please, consider contacting the Inquisitor only after you've answered it :smalltongue:

As the story goes, the Emperor held himself back in the fight with Horus because he had trouble fighting his favourite son. However, when Guilliman is resurrected and has his little talk with his "father", we learn that Big E never saw primarchs as sons... that was just a convenient cover story for... morale's sake, I guess? Optics? Doesn't really matter. We learn from Roboute that Emperor always considered primarchs more as tools.

So if we take that story at face value... why did Emperor held himself back? Could it be that Horus actually gave him a run for his money? He was a conduit for Chaos Undivided at that point, after all... that's bound to give even Emperor some problems.

Literally nobody knows. They've hyping up Horus to be this mystical 'fight him physically and spiritually' threat but also the power of the four is burning him out. They aren't rushing due to Guilliman et all, if they had thought it was a threat they would've let Perturabo keep stalling them. They're rushing because Horus is about to die.

[Cheesegear]

As the story goes, the Emperor held himself back in the fight with Horus because he had trouble fighting his favourite son. However, when Guilliman is resurrected...

Pfft. It's directly stated in Master of Mankind. No need to wait for G-man to walk again. Malcador says it, straight up.


We learn from Roboute that Emperor always considered primarchs more as tools.

We learn it from The Emperor himself.
We learn it from Dorn, who tried to earn his Father's love, who ultimately had to accept that he would never get it.


So if we take that story at face value... why did Emperor held himself back?

My guess is two-fold:
1. The Emperor's heart grew three sizes that day, or
2. Horus really was his favourite.

[LeSwordfish]

It's also possible that that's not canon any more - what was the source on this? Because I think the relationship between the emperor and the primarchs has been fleshed out and changed significantly by the Horus Heresy books.

[Wraith]

It's one of those plots that is a mix of out-of-universe story telling, and in-universe mythology.

We won't find out for sure until the duel is finally written into a novel, but there are reasons as to why the Emperor would hold back and not kill Horus, that later got romanticised as being 'love for his son'.

Maybe it takes a few minutes to fully and properly unhook himself, psychically, from the Golden Throne - he can't just switch it off, and Loken(?)'s sacrifice literally buys him the 10 seconds he needs to gather the full limit of His power for the killing blow?

Maybe the Emperor still thinks he can rehabilitate Horus, but in a more neutral way - Horus is still the most powerful of the Primarchs and he now knows things about Chaos that no-one else does, so perhaps the Emperor offers him one last chance to surrender and use his knowledge to restart the Great Crusade? They chat for a while, Horus eventually refuses, they fight while the Emperor continues to insist that they can put the Heresy behind them if only Horus surrenders?

Maybe the person who stood between the Emperor and Horus was Sanguinius? Sanguinius is holding Horus down and the only way for the Emperor to kill Horus was to run his sword through the Angel too? Hell, maybe Sanguinius talked it over with Horus and decided that actually, letting Chaos win would be for the best - Horus and he were close confidants before, if anyone could talk Sanguinius around then it might be Horus.
Either way, nobody needs to know that the Emperor was willing to kill Loyalist Primarchs - or that Sanguinius had Fallen - so they instead make the story about how Sanguinius was already dead when they got there and it was compassion for some rando Guardsman that let the Emperor overcome the enemy instead?

Maybe the entire duel is a lie. Maybe Dorn or Valdor walks in on the Emperor and Horus both badly wounded and he can't tell them apart, so he kills them both and concocts a story about the Emperor's great and noble sacrifice rather than let the Imperium know just how similar the Arch-Heretic and the Master of Mankind really were at the end?

[Lord Torath]

It's also possible that that's not canon any more - what was the source on this? Because I think the relationship between the emperor and the primarchs has been fleshed out and changed significantly by the Horus Heresy books.Oh, definitely.

I know there was a short story in a White Dwarf a couple decades ago that went into pretty decent detail, but I couldn't tell you which one. It definitely said that Horus slew Sanguinius, and the Emperor held himself back, as though he couldn't quite bring himself to believe that his son would really attack him until Horus actually landed a blow, and that's when the Emperor ended the fight.

[Cheesegear]

Maybe the entire duel is a lie. Maybe Dorn or Valdor walks in on the Emperor and Horus [...] just how similar the Arch-Heretic and the Master of Mankind really were at the end?

That's so good!
Dorn and Valdor look aghast as they come into the Bridge, behind the Emperor. The Emperor doesn't see them come in, focused on Horus as He is. He outlines his Evil Plan to Horus, to complete the Great Crusade and then kill off the Primarchs as their use comes to an end (Dorn is horrified), and to ultimately become the Evil Dictator that he's meant to be.

Dorn knows that Jaghatai was right. Some things are more important than the Emperor. The Imperium must stand. But with The Emperor at the head of it, it will never be want he thinks it will become. The Imperium can't achieve its potential whilst the Emperor walks. But, Dorn himself built the Golden Throne, he knows how it works. Dorn could never bring himself to outright kill his Father. But, you don't have to kill your enemy to defeat them.

Valdor knows that The Emperor's greatest enemy is...Himself. Valdor must protect the Emperor...By disabling him.
For once in their entire lives, Dorn and Valdor agree on one thing - albeit for different reasons.
The Emperor Must Fall.

Over time, Dorn tells his surviving brothers what he did:

Leman Russ is the first to leave. Russ didn't go down to the petrol station to get cigarettes. "I'll be back when Dorn's done, and Dad walks again...I just...Can't be here anymore."
Vulkan knows that he's got time. He just...Leaves. He returns during the War of the Beast. But with Koorland/Slaughter in charge of the current Imperium, Vulkan can't forgive Dorn, nor his Sons, and for no reason at all, bails on the Imperium, even though during the War of the Beast, the Imperium could really use a Primarch on their side.
Corax, Dorn's last brother. Even when Needs Must, even with Corax's nihilism...Time does not heal all wounds. The final argument he has with Dorn, turns out, is about what Dorn did to their Father.

Dorn...The Last Primarch...Can't forgive himself. His brothers have abandoned him. His father lies interred by his hand in a golden coffin. No amount of the Pain Glove can absolve him of what he's done. Striking down their father - with Valdor's help, not that that makes it better. But not only did Dorn eventually strike down The Emperor, but the whole thing was pinned on Horus, who knew what the Emperor had been planning all along. Should he tell Sigismund? ...No. Never.

Dorn must take his secret to the grave. No. Not to the grave. He must live with it. The only person that Dorn would ever trust to give him absolution, to give him punishment for what he's done...Is Konrad Curze. Night Haunter. Dorn teleports aboard the aptly named Sword of Sacrilege, where he demands that the Night Lords take him to Night Haunter, personally. Not understanding what's happening, the Night Lords attack Dorn. Dorn makes them understand, by destroying their bridge and decimating their forces. Once the Night Lords remove his sword-hand, they take him to Curze. The only one who can understand what Dorn did. The only one who can punish Dorn, inside the Warp, where time is eternal, and punishment is forever.

[LansXero]

That's so good!

Really? Thats reddit level of whatif random crazy theory.


Dorn and Valdor look aghast as they come into the Bridge, behind the Emperor. The Emperor doesn't see them come in, focused on Horus as He is. He outlines his Evil Plan to Horus, to complete the Great Crusade and then kill off the Primarchs as their use comes to an end (Dorn is horrified), and to ultimately become the Evil Dictator that he's meant to be.

So what? Valdor was there the last time another tool was purged and he doesn't give a crap about Primarchs anyways.



Dorn knows that Jaghatai was right. Some things are more important than the Emperor. The Imperium must stand. But with The Emperor at the head of it, it will never be want he thinks it will become. The Imperium can't achieve its potential whilst the Emperor walks. But, Dorn himself built the Golden Throne, he knows how it works. Dorn could never bring himself to outright kill his Father. But, you don't have to kill your enemy to defeat them.

So, its character assassination then?


The only one who can understand what Dorn did. The only one who can punish Dorn, inside the Warp, where time is eternal, and punishment is forever.

So, one of the few canonically and repeatedly confirmed dead?

[Wraith]

Really? Thats reddit level of whatif random crazy theory.

Well, damn - I'm sorry my single, throw-away, cooked-up-in-all-of-3-seconds suggestion wasn't up to your high standards! :smalltongue: Please excuse me while I report to the nearest Inquisitorial fortress for 'rehabilitation'. :smallwink:


So, its character assassination then?

Dorn's sworn duty was to protect Terra and the Imperium. Can't do that with the Emperor dead, can't do it with Horus alive.... More grimdark things have happened for dumber reasons.


So, one of the few canonically and repeatedly confirmed dead?

Believed dead. The vid-pict cuts out just as M'Shen lunges for him, and no Night Lords were there to witness it in person, so... Less grimdark things have happened for cleverer reasons. :smalltongue:

Another option is that Dorn just doesn't know (or believe) that Curze is dead. The Lion mentioned something offhand about 'Thramas' and 'getting run through with a sword' but was never really very clear on what happened next, and he's not around to ask about it now, so all he knows is that it's been nearly 1,000 years since the end of the Heresy and the Assassins aren't exactly known for telling people what they've been up to.
Maybe Dorn will find Curze, maybe he won't... Either way; direct punishment or an eternity of wandering alone and broken, which is basically the same thing but quieter.

Alternatively.... have you ever seen Fight Club? Remember how it ends? They absolutely could 'pull an Alpharius' if they wanted to - That Konrad Curze is indeed dead.... But only because, one dark night, the Night Haunter came to punish him for his sins...!

[Cheesegear]

So what? Valdor was there the last time another tool was purged and he doesn't give a crap about Primarchs anyways.

Exactly?


So, its character assassination then?

Dorn's character development began way back in The Dark King, when McNeill decided that Dorn vs. Perturabo was a stupid rivalry that grade-schoolers could come up with. Dorn's true rival, if not Horus, was Curze. You do what you have to do. There is no line except for the one you make in your head. Dorn must fight his brothers, or die. It's a shame that none of the other writers caught onto that storyline, and then had Curze on the opposite side of the Galaxy to Dorn for the whole Heresy.

Dorn's character development continued in Praetorian of Dorn, when Dorn decided not only was fighting, but killing his brothers wasn't even off the table anymore.
Dorn's heart(s) has been broken, and it will never heal.

(Between Curze tearing out one of Dorn's hearts, and Alpharius stabbing him in the other, I'm convinced that Dorn has no hearts left to give.)

Culminating with the death of Sanguinius, the best of them.
Culminating with acknowledging that his Father is not only a Bad Guy, but perhaps the Worst Guy. And that Dorn, trying to earn his Father's love the entire time, not only not getting it, not only accepting that he would never get it. But ultimately deciding that he doesn't even need or want his father's love anymore.


So, one of the few canonically and repeatedly confirmed dead?

Curze is not confirmed dead. He is only confirmed willing - and accepting - to die. Because he knows the Imperium can have it no other way.

[Borgh]

Not to mention the whole "primarchs are three deamons in a meatsuit" idea. Conrad may be dead as a doornail while his essence became a insane avatar of disproportionate retribution.

I don't think Dorn will abandon/betray the emperor, he's too stubbornly loyal for that, and a very simple man at his core.

But simple doesn't mean stupid and he might not like what he sees aboard the Vengeful Spirit. Stuffing Emps into the Golden Throne might be his way of putting his dad in a retirement home without breaking any oaths. Dad will be alive, terra safe, and sure, when the Empire is stable we'll deal with resurrecting him.

[lord_khaine]

No man, best scenario is getting Guilliman or another Primarch to get the Imperium unified to do that for them. They can be bargained with and are much less likely to become a xenocidal threat in their own right.


Oh yeah 100%. For the rest of the galaxy i do think Guilliman is the best choice, especially if you want a slightly less future thats not only war.
He does seem like the most reasonable of the lot.

[Artanis]

Oh yeah 100%. For the rest of the galaxy i do think Guilliman is the best choice, especially if you want a slightly less future thats not only war.
He does seem like the most reasonable of the lot.

Not that that's a particularly high bar in a lot of cases :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

I don't think Dorn will abandon/betray the emperor, he's too stubbornly loyal for that, and a very simple man at his core.

His stubbornness is repeatedly brought up as a character flaw.
His loyalty is at least once, brought up as a character flaw.

His final arc, should be overcoming that stubbornness, and maybe, probably, coming to the conclusion - like his brothers - that The Imperium, and The Emperor, aren't the same thing. This is exactly what gets Sigismund into trouble, and why the Black Templars still wear underpants on their head, ten thousand-plus years later. Dorn is not Sigismund - or rather, Sigismund is not Dorn. Dorn isn't even like Lorgar. However, neither is Dorn, Curze.

Dorn is what Mortarion could be. But, unlike Mortarion, actually finds himself in a position to act against The Emperor. And, unlike Mortarion and Horus, when it comes time for Dorn to act, he doesn't necessarily need to **** out, so that the story happens, like Mortarion did.


Stuffing Emps into the Golden Throne might be his way of putting his dad in a retirement home without breaking any oaths. Dad will be alive, terra safe, and sure, when the Empire is stable we'll deal with resurrecting him.

Which is exactly how Dorn keeps The Imperium alive, without The Emperor dying. Dorn can save Sanguinius, or The Emperor. He chooses The Emperor. That's already canon.

But ultimately there are several problems post-Heresy that are very hard to reconcile. In order:

- Leman Russ just walks into The Eye. Saying he'll be back. But evidentially not during any of the ten thousand years where The Imperium might have actually needed him.
- Vulkan goes to search for treasure. I mean, if you're not going into The Eye, can you at least tell the Salamanders where you're going? Can they keep tabs at least? Nope. Hell, Vulkan comes back, in canon during the - War of the Beast, and the Salamanders really, really, really would like to talk to him. He says no, and then just leaves again.
- Corax goes emo, and attempts to talk to Dorn. Whatever Corax thought would happen, didn't, and instead, Corax and Dorn have 'an arugment', and the result is that Corax goes into The Eye.
- Dorn effectively commits suicide.

Saying "All the [alive] Primarchs got a case of ennui, and that was enough for them to say that duty and the burdens of command are no longer relevant. So they just...Abandoned The Imperium."
There has to be a reason for that. And in the last 25-odd years since 2nd Ed., there hasn't been. As I mentioned, Vulkan actually does come back. No answers.

[Wraith]

Option 3: After threatening to expose Dorn and their perceived version of his 'betrayal', Russ and Corax never made it out of the room and ended up with a Dorn-sized Power Fist through the back of their rib-cage. Dorn left Sanguinius to die and intentionally left the Emperor maimed and crippled in order to protect the Imperium - turns out he's taken Curze's lesson to heart (lol) and understands that horrible things have to be done for the greater good. Two more dead brothers - and they're not really brothers, are they? They're genetically manufactured tools that barely share a common ancestor - isn't really much of a price to pay, is it?

And at first, Vulkan believes Dorn - Russ and Corax have gone wandering the webway, so Vulkan goes to look for them and find out what made them leave. It takes a century or two, but eventually he starts to suspect that he hasn't been told the truth and that Dorn was hiding something from him. But Dorn is the reigning Lord of the Imperium - to accuse him of lying would cause another civil war, so for now all he can do is keep it to himself and not even tell his sons of his suspicions when they ask.
It's not until the War of the Beast when he gets back and realises that he's too late - Dorn is also 'gone' so all he can do is keep looking for any of his 3 brothers and hope that he can one day find the truth, but until then even voicing his suspicions could bring down all of humanity...

[Gareth3]

Three factions have had a recent fluff update where they make some kind of significant advance: the Imperium has Guiliman waking up and the new Marines, the Eldar have the creation of Ynnead, and Chaos literally split the Imperium in two. There's also the Tau taking over human hive worlds, but I'm not sure how recent that development is. So, could you do the same kind of thing with the Orks or Tyranids? They both have much simpler motivations than the other factions, so what could they do that isn't just a big invasion?

[PhoenixPhyre]

So, could you do the same kind of thing with the Orks or Tyranids? They both have much simpler motivations than the other factions, so what could they do that isn't just a big invasion?

Heretical thought, but maybe some "character" development that makes them something other than 1D, single-minded creatures with only one goal? A faction split? Orks gone over to chaos/Tau? Tyranids who settle down and "farm" an area?

Nah, never happen.

[Saambell]

Tyranids who settle down and "farm" an area?

Nah, never happen.

Funny thing is: they actually have done that. 8th Editions Codex for them has Hive Fleet Tiamat specializing in defense, and instead of spreading and consuming, they took a set of planets in the Tiamat system(hence the name) and have fortified the place. A squad of Eldar rangers wandered in to investigate and found a horrific continent sized pyramid of flesh, pulsing with massive psychic energy. The tyranids of the system seemed to be nurturing and growing it, while also sustaining the planet around it as a stable food source for the strange pyramid. The general theory of it is that they have built their own version of the Astronomicon to help draw more and more tyranids to the galaxy. But they also left it open enough for it to maybe be something else.

[Cheesegear]

So, could you do the same kind of thing with the Orks or Tyranids?

You mean like Octarius?


They both have much simpler motivations than the other factions, so what could they do that isn't just a big invasion?

I'm confused as to your premise, but:
Tyranids exist to consume and feed. There is no reasoning with them. The second Tyranids no longer consume and feed, they are no longer Tyranids, and they no longer present the threat that they do. If Tyranids aren't an unreasonable threat, then they're just a different version of Chaos.

Orks have the same problem, but also have the illusion that they can be reasoned with, since they have sentient speech. This is reflected by the fact that you can actually play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPGs. Very Digga. Much relatable. Wow. However, they also present the same problem. Orks live to fight, and fight to live. The Krork were such a threat that the C'Tan had to shut down their Galactic-domination plan for a few millennia. Once Orks no longer present a threat to all sides, they are no longer what they are. There is no line in the sand where an Ork says "I've fought enough, this far and I can be persuaded maybe no further."

This is problematised (?) within the (in)famous 'Orks never lose' quote; They have no reason at all to ever stop fighting, ever. Everything they do is a big invasion, because that's all they can do.

The biggest problem, narratively, is that Tyranids and Orks occupy the same space; The 'Fight Everyone' Faction. That's why the only really creative thing you can do with them, is bait them into fighting each other and then walking away:
Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Tyranids,
Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Orks,
Whoever wins, we lose.

But that's really the problem in a nutshell. Orks and Tyranids are creatively bankrupt, because there's nothing you can do with them, because they are so narratively one-dimensional that they're so one-dimensional that you can't even expand them.

The bankruptcy was already seen back in WHFB:
Storm of Chaos: Grimgor Ironhide fights Archaon, then walks away for no reason at all because the story has to happen.
End Times: Grimgor Ironhide does the exact same thing again, but Achaon kills him.

Orcs had the exact same storyline, twice. Because there isn't anything creative you can do with them, and have them still occupy the same narrative 'Fight Everyone' space.

[Forum Explorer]

You mean like Octarius?



I'm confused as to your premise, but:
Tyranids exist to consume and feed. There is no reasoning with them. The second Tyranids no longer consume and feed, they are no longer Tyranids, and they no longer present the threat that they do. If Tyranids aren't an unreasonable threat, then they're just a different version of Chaos.

Orks have the same problem, but also have the illusion that they can be reasoned with, since they have sentient speech. This is reflected by the fact that you can actually play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPGs. Very Digga. Much relatable. Wow. However, they also present the same problem. Orks live to fight, and fight to live. The Krork were such a threat that the C'Tan had to shut down their Galactic-domination plan for a few millennia. Once Orks no longer present a threat to all sides, they are no longer what they are. There is no line in the sand where an Ork says "I've fought enough, this far and I can be persuaded maybe no further."

This is problematised (?) within the (in)famous 'Orks never lose' quote; They have no reason at all to ever stop fighting, ever. Everything they do is a big invasion, because that's all they can do.

The biggest problem, narratively, is that Tyranids and Orks occupy the same space; The 'Fight Everyone' Faction. That's why the only really creative thing you can do with them, is bait them into fighting each other and then walking away:
Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Tyranids,
Some believe that The Milky Way ends in Orks,
Whoever wins, we lose.

But that's really the problem in a nutshell. Orks and Tyranids are creatively bankrupt, because there's nothing you can do with them, because they are so narratively one-dimensional that they're so one-dimensional that you can't even expand them.

The bankruptcy was already seen back in WHFB:
Storm of Chaos: Grimgor Ironhide fights Archaon, then walks away for no reason at all because the story has to happen.
End Times: Grimgor Ironhide does the exact same thing again, but Achaon kills him.

Orcs had the exact same storyline, twice. Because there isn't anything creative you can do with them, and have them still occupy the same narrative 'Fight Everyone' space.

I disagree with that. Tyranids, sure, they are a omnicidal threat that you can't bargain with at all.

Orks though, Orks just want to fight. Their entire civilization might be geared up to fight, but they do have a civilization of a sort. They take human slaves, they hold grudges, they prioritize targets, and they even show mercy, if extremely rarely. And they become...more when they hit a certain level of fighting like we saw in the War of the Beast books. Not just the Beast themselves, but the Ork diplomats, the increased technology and intelligence they had access to. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of flaws in those books, but the Orks as an opponent weren't one of them.

So it is very possible to have Orks be the 'heroes' against something like Tyranids, or an Ork 'evolving' to the point where it's capable of making a sophisticated alliance with someone else.

[thethird]

Orks sent a diplomat to Terra to negotiate terms of surrender. Of course when we got to that point the Beast was going full gun ho and going to take over the galaxy. But the war level in Octarius could make ork's evolution supercharge.

What I would really like to see is an Octarius development with ork-genestealer hybrids starting to gain weight. A new alien menace. One can dream, and one can also write fanfiction.

[Cheesegear]

an Ork 'evolving' to the point where it's capable of making a sophisticated alliance with someone else.

Like I said, you can play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPG. There's an Ork in Blackstone Fortress.

My point was, that as a Faction, how can you even change the status quo? The only notable thing that Orks have gotten is a Beast-classification of Ork. Which simply and only means an even bigger-er Ork.

A long time ago there was Orkimedes. But I literally don't recall him showing up anywhere after 3rd Ed.

[LeSwordfish]

There's an Ork in Blackstone Fortress.

I don't think there is, unless I'm forgetting an expansion.

[Lord Torath]

The orks were at one time allied with the squats (there was a betrayal; the eldar - also nominal allies with the squats - refused to step in and help, and thus the squats gained their hatred of orks and distrust of eldar). Does this imply that orks are capable of such complex behavior? Or has this been retconned out of existence, much like the squats?

[Mystic Muse]

I don't think there is, unless I'm forgetting an expansion.

Yeah, I bought an unreasonable number of boxes of Blackstone Fortress (the one that released during 8th anyway.) and I'm certain there isn't an Ork in there.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, I bought an unreasonable number of boxes of Blackstone Fortress (the one that released during 8th anyway.) and I'm certain there isn't an Ork in there.

Skarburn Zapdakka. He was in a White Dwarf, same as the Broggan Brothers (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/12/03/blackstone-fortress-building-your-retinuegw-homepage-post-1/).
If White Dwarves are lame (because they are)... Blackstone Fortress Annual 2019.

Buy a whole box of models, just so you can use one of them in BSF...It's weird that retinue characters didn't catch on. Can't imagine why they didn't.

[Dragonus45]

Thinking about it, I could actually see a situation in which a Krork-esque orc faction surges into being in response to Necrons being back and perhaps also as a response to the bit with the warp breaking open like it has that shakes up the status quo of the faction a little and give the Orks some new characters to work with. Something something blame the Old Ones.

[Platinius]

What are you people's feelings on the up coming Darktide game?

(Here the gameplay trailer for the unlikely case you don't know what I am talking about (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-UifdRoC8I))

[Cheesegear]

What are you people's feelings on the up coming Darktide game?

What are yours?

[LeSwordfish]

Skarburn Zapdakka. He was in a White Dwarf, same as the Broggan Brothers (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/12/03/blackstone-fortress-building-your-retinuegw-homepage-post-1/).
If White Dwarves are lame (because they are)... Blackstone Fortress Annual 2019.

Buy a whole box of models, just so you can use one of them in BSF...It's weird that retinue characters didn't catch on. Can't imagine why they didn't.

Ah, my mistake.

Perhaps the issue is that while individual Orks are perfectly willing to work alongside humans, as a collective or a faction, Orks just fight things.

[Cheesegear]

...as a collective or a faction, Orks just fight things.

Right. That's what I said.

The most interesting thing - narratively - about Orks, is their Waaagh! circuit. It's not the Warp, which means that it's not technically a psychic link between Orks. But it is something that Orks seem to have genetically, as a species. What is it? How does it work?

Why is one Ork, seemingly fine and reasonable? But the more you get, in a single space, the more seemingly-stupid, and violent they become. What is that? How does it work? Can it be harnessed? If Orks are divided, do they even still want to fight? That's probably why Ghazgkull is so scary. He's actually making a point to unite Orks, to focus their violence and stupidity. He's the Prophet, and he's making it happen. Making what happen? ...The biggest and meanest fight that there ever was...Oh. Is that all?

Can't the Waaagh! circuit be used for something interesting that isn't stupid? No. The Waaagh! circuit is for making Orks believe that red cars go faster. Or...Is there really no Waaagh! circuit at all, and Orks really are as stupid as they look, and thus, are prone to Groupthink? Since if you get an Ork away from other Orks, and start giving it food and clean clothes, it stops being disagreeable because it starts groupthinking with the Imperial captor.

Maybe an Ork just picks up and adopts whatever culture happens to be around it at the time?
Like a mushroom.
...Oh.

[Platinius]

What are yours?

Cautiously optimistic, Fatshark is good at making "Left for Dead with a Warhammer twist" games.

I hope we get an Eldar (if we do, likely a Ranger or a Banshee/Wych, hopefully Wych, but careers, weapon selections and skins exist so who knows, we might get all of them^^), but what I am really looking forward to is playing as the Ogrin and the priestess.
I like the design of the priestess, it has a lot of personality and looks quite unique.
I find it interesting that they made the trooper with the power sword a woman.


My expectation in comparison to Vermintide 1+2 is that ranged combat will be somewhat more important/used more in part because the enemies also have more ranged weapons.

[Wraith]

What are you people's feelings on the up coming Darktide game?

On the one hand, I like the art style and the gameplay looks nice and fluid. One of my biggest turn-offs with Vermintide was that a lot of it was melee-combat orientated, and I really don't like that in a First-Person perspective - a matter of taste more than anything - and more ranged combat is a plus in my eyes.

My biggest criticism is that it's a FPS placed in the Warhammer 40k setting, and the protagonists are just random humans (save for the Ogryn, of course). Random humans are the most boring part of the 40k setting; why can't they be a squad of guardsmen and play with a theme? Or Inquisitorial henchmen and remake Dark Heresy in glorious 3D? Or pick anything other than humans, and send out a squad of Deathwatch Space Marines? Let us play with boltors and heavy flamers and role-play not just as random spods but as a squad of battle brothers?

Oh wait, they already made that game - it was called Space Hulk. It wasn't great, because "Left 4 Dead In Space" unfortunately focuses on the 'in space' part when all the gameplay and other important stuff should be on the 'L4D' part.

[Platinius]

The humans are not random as far as I can tell. They are:
1 priestess
2 inquisitorial stormtroopers
1 Ogryn

thus far.
I hope for a Eldar party member, but a Sister of Battle (as a tanky character) would be cool too. (But she might actually be too tough with her massive armour and too powerful with her boltgun without nerfing the fokk out of her gear)
One of the stormtroopers might be a placeholder (the lady stormtrooper in part because she holds a high end power sword that so she might be replaced by a banshee or something), but if she is replaced, I would want her as an alternate skin for the gas masked stormtrooper.
But is already unusual that the priest of the imperial faith is female. It should not surprise me, but it actually did, because usually the faithful female followers of the God-Emperor are represented as Sisters of Battle. A little reminder that the Sisters of Battle are "only" the armed arm of the Imperial Faith and that the regular priests can be men and women alike. (and given the ultra violent nature of the Imperial Faith, of course they are also hardened, fanatical warriors, but their primary purpose is to lead faitfhul, not to literally beat on the heretic with a hammer in the face.)

[Forum Explorer]

Like I said, you can play as an Ork in the 40K TTRPG. There's an Ork in Blackstone Fortress.

My point was, that as a Faction, how can you even change the status quo? The only notable thing that Orks have gotten is a Beast-classification of Ork. Which simply and only means an even bigger-er Ork.

A long time ago there was Orkimedes. But I literally don't recall him showing up anywhere after 3rd Ed.

As a faction I suppose we are seeing it with Ghaz. He's unifying the Orks which could lead them to unleash their full potential as a race. Where we do see Orks use greater levels of technology, become more Psyker based, and just in general become more sophisticated.


On the one hand, I like the art style and the gameplay looks nice and fluid. One of my biggest turn-offs with Vermintide was that a lot of it was melee-combat orientated, and I really don't like that in a First-Person perspective - a matter of taste more than anything - and more ranged combat is a plus in my eyes.

My biggest criticism is that it's a FPS placed in the Warhammer 40k setting, and the protagonists are just random humans (save for the Ogryn, of course). Random humans are the most boring part of the 40k setting; why can't they be a squad of guardsmen and play with a theme? Or Inquisitorial henchmen and remake Dark Heresy in glorious 3D? Or pick anything other than humans, and send out a squad of Deathwatch Space Marines? Let us play with boltors and heavy flamers and role-play not just as random spods but as a squad of battle brothers?

Oh wait, they already made that game - it was called Space Hulk. It wasn't great, because "Left 4 Dead In Space" unfortunately focuses on the 'in space' part when all the gameplay and other important stuff should be on the 'L4D' part.

I'd say the most boring part of 40K are Space Marines as characters. Inevitably, the Space Marine characterization is so brutally limited they come off as unchanging killing machines. Which, you know, they are. A normal human can feel fear, doubt, be tired, and just want to go home already. They can also have other desires like having a family, or getting a beer, or watching a game. They can push through despair, be tempted by evil, and be completely in over their head.

Now while I certainly would enjoy using an alien race or two, I'm also not super eager for it? Basically, I'd want them to do it well, and feel like them ending up as just another human would be a waste.

[LansXero]

and just in general become more sophisticated...

at fighting. Krorks are weapons, the Beast sent diplomats from its freaking Attack Moon, thats all they are even at their peak, even in Ullanor there was no fancy orky civ, just more fighty fights. Thats it, thats all they are, a weapon with nobody at the trigger.


I'd say the most boring part of 40K are Space Marines as characters. Inevitably, the Space Marine

And then you procede to say they dont experience... what we see a bunch of them experience across several novels. So... read more?

[Forum Explorer]

at fighting. Krorks are weapons, the Beast sent diplomats from its freaking Attack Moon, thats all they are even at their peak, even in Ullanor there was no fancy orky civ, just more fighty fights. Thats it, thats all they are, a weapon with nobody at the trigger.



And then you procede to say they dont experience... what we see a bunch of them experience across several novels. So... read more?

Sure. They are ultimately a weapon, that won't change. The endgame of Orks winning is a forever war of Orks than attacking Orks. Them winning is very much a game over for everyone else, but to be fair, so is pretty much anyone else winning. But Orks becoming more sophisticated is something you can do with their storyline if you felt the need to advance it.


Some of them, occasionally and rarely. And pretty much only in the Horus Heresy books (as an aside, the absolute worst parts of The War of the Beast is the parts involving Space Marines. Which is most of it sadly). But even in the Horus Heresy books I typically found the marines to be pretty dull in comparison to the human characters surrounding them.

[Saambell]

That makes me think, Orks are just Old One Space Marines. A brutal tool to fight wars. However, the Old Ones made Orks an entire separate species that is born, lives, and dies to fight. While the Emperor made the Space Marines to be changed humans that start from an emotional base, have those emotions pulled away, but they still lurk under the surface able to reappear and bring personality to the killing machine. Which to me shows that while the Old Ones made the superior fighting machines, the Emperor made the more interesting tool, that can also function somewhat outside of always fighting. Everything the orks have made simply further their fighting abilities. Even the diplomats were grown/made/evolved to make the surrender of a planet faster so they could move on to the next fight while setting up supply bases. The part of the War Of The Beast series that shows what happens to a human populace of an Ork controlled world is simply horrifying. Human Cattle, crippled slaves, and devolved frenzied beasts of war. There is no hope for humanity under control of the Orks, as all of that was simply done as a tool for war. Melting down of the populace for food rations, using some as a work force freeing up greenskins for fighting, and even using them as replacements for grots, just to make their wars more efficient. Everything of culture that seems to be "progress" is simply means to an end of more war, more fighting. And this is not limited to the Orks, almost all Xenos races do this to some extent. In most cases, you are lucky if all a Xenos does is kill you. Its why the Craftworld Eldar are "good guys" cause they only kill you. And why the Tau are not as good guy as you think as they do two of those things listed, being crippled slaves and beasts of war. They just go about it kindly, while pretending they are helping you.

And I fully expect a couple of people will jump to point out that "human cattle, enslaved workforce, and frenzied beasts of war is all stuff the Imperium does too". Oh man, its almost like there are no good guys in 40k, and every side is some level of evil. Even the Craftworld Eldar will wipe out entire planets/species if it means their kind lives on for a few more years. Mankind will wipe out a planet to move in. Eldar will wipe out a planet cause some guy dreamed something from that planet will kill some eldar in a few centuries, and wont even inhabit the now empty planet.

[Wraith]

The humans are not random as far as I can tell. They are:
1 priestess
2 inquisitorial stormtroopers
1 Ogryn

I *think* it's supposed to be one Stormtrooper and one Psyker - the female warrior has a shaved head and what appears to be some kind of device around her crown. She's also carrying a sword which is glowing blue - either a power sword or a force-sword? The latter would make sense, since as game balance goes there's usually one 'magic user' to play with.

I hope to be proven wrong later on when we get more details about the storyline, but on first glance - which is what we were asked for - I want to know who these people are and why they're working together. "They're Imperials and one has a heavy weapon, one has a hammer, and another is an all-rounder" isn't enough to catch my attention; if they were ALL wearing Guardsman uniform, or wearing Inquisitorial iconography then I would be more interested to ask what they were doing and why, but so far "melee/mid-range/long-range classes" seems to be the only reason. Give me a story or premise to get invested in please, trailer! :smalltongue:

The Blackstone Fortress IP is right there and you can use that to let you include abhumans and xenos as playable characters, y'know? I wanted that, but instead it's looks exactly like Vermintide with a 40k skin stapled on top. Vermintide was fine, but I hope there's more to it than they have thus far shown. I don't hate it, not by a long shot, but I'm just not excited either.

[Gareth3]

Zombies are kind of a boring choice for a 40K game enemy. Sure, they come up in the fluff a few times. But there are more interesting monsters that behave like zombies.

[Destro_Yersul]

I'd say the most boring part of 40K are Space Marines as characters.

Space Marines work fine as characters. Most people just write them badly.

[thethird]

That makes me think, Orks are just Old One Space Marines.

The Old One's and the Emperor are trying to solve different problems and hence the different approach. The Old Ones are fighting a War In Heaven that is either kill or be killed. If they win they will be able to take their weapons (the Krorks) and stop them, at least in theory. If they lose well they don't mind those weapons still being there being a pain in the ass to their enemies. The Emperor wants to conquer the galaxy for humanity, and then have humanity rule over it. Stopping Space Marine production is WAY easier than Ork production.

[Lord Torath]

Space Marines work fine as characters. Most people just write them badly.I fully agree. There was a website a while back with a bunch of fiction, including a story about a Dark Angels dreadnought that felt constant pain from his 'suit', one about some Imperial Fists defending a Relic/Chapel world, another story about a lone marine and a kid taking on a chaos cult, a novel/novella about some Imperial Guardsmen taking out a tyranid super-creature, and a story called The Intruder about a daemon that stalked the halls of the Inquisition's northern polar fortress on Terra, leaving lumps of coal in their rooms once a year.

It had some pretty great writing. Unfortunately I can't find the site anymore. :smallfrown:

[Renegade Paladin]

I fully agree. There was a website a while back with a bunch of fiction, including a story about a Dark Angels dreadnought that felt constant pain from his 'suit', one about some Imperial Fists defending a Relic/Chapel world, another story about a lone marine and a kid taking on a chaos cult, a novel/novella about some Imperial Guardsmen taking out a tyranid super-creature, and a story called The Intruder about a daemon that stalked the halls of the Inquisition's northern polar fortress on Terra, leaving lumps of coal in their rooms once a year.

It had some pretty great writing. Unfortunately I can't find the site anymore. :smallfrown:

Have you tried the Wayback Machine? Or if you've forgotten the URL, do you remember any distinct phrasing from any of the stories that could be used in a targeted search?

[Cheesegear]

Space Marines work fine as characters. Most people just write them badly.

A Deathwatch game:
Me, the GM: Well, a Dire Avenger Exarch drops out of the trees.
The party: This is gonna be a near-TPK, isn't it?

Space Marines are everything they're supposed to be:

- At least twice as strong and tough as a human,
- They don't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep for very long periods of time,
- They're indoctrinated to only fear failure,
- Their volume, appears to have little - if any - effect on their movement and reflexes, which is meant to appear jarring
- They can heal from almost any non-amputative injury in less than a minute - and amputative injuries are only slightly more severe.
- Their only weak point is their head - and even then, they're supposed to wear power-helmets.

And with all that, Space Marines are losing the war, against Daemons, against Xenos, and against themselves.

When you put The Mandalorian in Beskar armour and make him almost-literally invulnerable, he is boring, because he isn't threatened. There's no obstacle to overcome, because he's already overcome almost-anything, because he's already invulnerable.

Genestealers and Eldar are supposed to be able to shred Space Marines to ribbons.
Orks are supposed to be able to crush a Marine's head with their bare hands.

Space Marines are supposed to be in danger, in a near-constant basis.
However, because Space Marines don't feel fear (of death), that causes a narrative problem because the character we're reading about, doesn't feel threatened, and so we - the audience - don't feel that the character is in any danger. Because in addition to that, GW/BL is also Flanderising Xenos species and Daemons, so that the Space Marine(s) have already won the battle, even though they are losing the war, in the wider setting.

How come the novels only show victories? When the setting only describes losses?

[noob]

A Deathwatch game:
Me, the GM: Well, a Dire Avenger Exarch drops out of the trees.
The party: This is gonna be a near-TPK, isn't it?

Space Marines are everything they're supposed to be:

- At least twice as strong and tough as a human,
- They don't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep for very long periods of time,
- They're indoctrinated to only fear failure,
- Their volume, appears to have little - if any - effect on their movement and reflexes, which is meant to appear jarring
- They can heal from almost any non-amputative injury in less than a minute - and amputative injuries are only slightly more severe.
- Their only weak point is their head - and even then, they're supposed to wear power-helmets.

And with all that, Space Marines are losing the war, against Daemons, against Xenos, and against themselves.

When you put The Mandalorian in Beskar armour and make him almost-literally invulnerable, he is boring, because he isn't threatened. There's no obstacle to overcome, because he's already overcome almost-anything, because he's already invulnerable.

Genestealers and Eldar are supposed to be able to shred Space Marines to ribbons.
Orks are supposed to be able to crush a Marine's head with their bare hands.

Space Marines are supposed to be in danger, in a near-constant basis.
However, because Space Marines don't feel fear (of death), that causes a narrative problem because the character we're reading about, doesn't feel threatened, and so we - the audience - don't feel that the character is in any danger. Because in addition to that, GW/BL is also Flanderising Xenos species and Daemons, so that the Space Marine(s) have already won the battle, even though they are losing the war, in the wider setting.

How come the novels only show victories? When the setting only describes losses?
The real reason is that the writers likes space marines and so place them often as their characters then gets attached to their fearless(which sadly removes tension) character.
Maybe it is because the novels are either supposed to be propaganda or about super heroic space marines that are the exception to the rule?
Or space marines does win 99.99% of the battles but they still end up dying because they get in countless thousands of battles(They live hundreds of years and only fight so those two traits implies directly that they have a ridiculous win rate because you can not be long lived if you lose fights) and so at some point they end up being grappled by an orc and reduced to a lump of broken bones and meat or end up being hit by one of the weapons that kills space marines in a few hits or in one hit.
The war is very long and space marines are produced at a very low rate and it is mostly young space marines that gets killed because they do not have all the survival training from battles so in the end while an old space marine lives very long the old space marines still die more often than they recruit a space marine that can reach old age.
If the space marine recruitment process did not have a death rate this high it still would not matter because space marines are only in an infinitesimal minority of the fights the imperium of mankind have: anything that makes the baseline weapons the guard uses cheaper or stronger at the same cost saves more lives than processes that makes space marines stronger.(But space marine fan techpriest keeps working on making stronger space marines just because it allows to sell more figurines because you are not going to sell new guardsmen figurines by saying "oh those guardsmen have the new and improved lasguns that are 5% cheaper to produce")

[Wraith]

The real reason is that the writers likes space marines...

...Is because Space Marines sell more than any other GW product, so they have a vested interest in making them look great and driving more sales. :smalltongue:


The war is very long and space marines are produced at a very low rate and it is mostly young space marines that gets killed because they do not have all the survival training from battles so in the end while an old space marine lives very long the old space marines still die more often than they recruit a space marine that can reach old age.

Such is the paradox of immortality. If you live long enough, the chance that you will be horribly maimed and forced to live (forever) in agony and despair inevitably approaches 100%. It's no longer a matter of 'if' it will happen but just 'when' - whether its 1 year away or 10,000, you can't dodge every bullet, every time, forever.

No wonder so many Space Marines - already superhuman, already immortal - turn to Chaos. Immortality is a lot more fun when one knows they can invoke the gift of their God in order to grow back their arms and legs when they inevitably lose them....

[Destro_Yersul]

A Deathwatch game:
Me, the GM: Well, a Dire Avenger Exarch drops out of the trees.
The party: This is gonna be a near-TPK, isn't it?

Space Marines are everything they're supposed to be:

- At least twice as strong and tough as a human,
- They don't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep for very long periods of time,
- They're indoctrinated to only fear failure,
- Their volume, appears to have little - if any - effect on their movement and reflexes, which is meant to appear jarring
- They can heal from almost any non-amputative injury in less than a minute - and amputative injuries are only slightly more severe.
- Their only weak point is their head - and even then, they're supposed to wear power-helmets.

And with all that, Space Marines are losing the war, against Daemons, against Xenos, and against themselves.

When you put The Mandalorian in Beskar armour and make him almost-literally invulnerable, he is boring, because he isn't threatened. There's no obstacle to overcome, because he's already overcome almost-anything, because he's already invulnerable.

Genestealers and Eldar are supposed to be able to shred Space Marines to ribbons.
Orks are supposed to be able to crush a Marine's head with their bare hands.

Space Marines are supposed to be in danger, in a near-constant basis.
However, because Space Marines don't feel fear (of death), that causes a narrative problem because the character we're reading about, doesn't feel threatened, and so we - the audience - don't feel that the character is in any danger. Because in addition to that, GW/BL is also Flanderising Xenos species and Daemons, so that the Space Marine(s) have already won the battle, even though they are losing the war, in the wider setting.

How come the novels only show victories? When the setting only describes losses?

Pretty long way of saying you agree that poor writing is the problem.

[Forum Explorer]

Such is the paradox of immortality. If you live long enough, the chance that you will be horribly maimed and forced to live (forever) in agony and despair inevitably approaches 100%. It's no longer a matter of 'if' it will happen but just 'when' - whether its 1 year away or 10,000, you can't dodge every bullet, every time, forever.

No wonder so many Space Marines - already superhuman, already immortal - turn to Chaos. Immortality is a lot more fun when one knows they can invoke the gift of their God in order to grow back their arms and legs when they inevitably lose them....

To be fair, the Imperium does have pretty good medical technology. Cybernetics make for good replacements, and are plentiful enough.

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, very straightforwardly they made The Mandalorian vulnerable by giving him things and people to protect, and principles to maintain while he did it. Space Marines protect big abstracts like "this gate" or "this planet" or "the imperium" and on occasion they actually do have to look after other people, they're typically kind of a **** to them. And then they're indoctrinated so their principles are, essentially, "try really hard not to lose" which is much harder to use as a separate source of tension than "don't ever show your face". In a way, that's a thing Deathwatch does very well - you can eke at least some drama out of "don't ever retreat" or "I should always be in charge" or "kill anybody who's a heretic", especially if it's not the baseline expectation of every named character in your story.

[Kris Strife]

...Is because Space Marines sell more than any other GW product, so they have a vested interest in making them look great and driving more sales. :smalltongue:

I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

[noob]

I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

Because they like tall men?

[Cheesegear]

Pretty long way of saying you agree that poor writing is the problem.

I'm clarifying that it feels like the writing is intentionally poor, and that's the problem.


I mean, very straightforwardly they made The Mandalorian vulnerable by giving him things and people to protect, and principles to maintain while he did it.

There are several - and many major - sequences and scenes where that just isn't the case.


Space Marines protect big abstracts like "this gate" or "this planet" or "the imperium" and on occasion they actually do have to look after other people, they're typically kind of a **** to them. And then they're indoctrinated so their principles are, essentially, "try really hard not to lose"...

Which again falls into another characterisation problem of Space Marines; What is it, that Space Marines want? What are they working towards? What are their hopes and goals?
Unfortunately, unless you present your Marines as underdogs (which GW/BL doesn't, anymore), they don't really want, anything. Except to win the current engagement. Why? So they can win the next one. And then the next one after that, too.

That's why Space Marines are so hard to write - accidentally and intentionally - because how do you give a Space Marine, a want? What do they want? They don't want anything, because they're indoctrinated to not want anything except exactly what's already on the tin.

Gabriel Seth has very clear goals, and that's why he's one of my favourites. I actually know who he is and what he's about.


In a way, that's a thing Deathwatch does very well - you can eke at least some drama out of "don't ever retreat" or "I should always be in charge" or "kill anybody who's a heretic", especially if it's not the baseline expectation of every named character in your story.

Deathwatch - and other 40K RPGs - are, well, RPGs. The players get out of it exactly what they put in, and since it's game, failure states and threats are built into the game and they can't really be avoided.


I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

Circles.
GW sells Space Marines. Space Marines sell. Promote the fact that Space Marines sell, so that Space Marines sell more. GW sells even more Space Marines.
If Space Marines never sold in the first place, would GW promote them?

[Wraith]

To be fair, the Imperium does have pretty good medical technology. Cybernetics make for good replacements, and are plentiful enough.

True, but going down that road eventually gets you put into a Dreadnought, which has been described as a fate worse than death by even some Loyalists whose only goal is to kill the enemies of the Emperor.
Or if you're not Astartes, that still leads ultimately to Servitordom. Did you know that those guys are functionally immortal, too? Even during the Heresy, Sanguinius had a servitor in his office that had served him for about ~180 years, and had belonged to the Legion long before that. :smalltongue:

Even if you don't go that far, augmetics kind of suck. Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium, complains that despite being stronger his bionic fingers aren't as tactile as his real fingers. Battle-Captain Garro, who has access to bionics meant for the top 1% of Astartes Legion in quality, hates his bionic leg because it just doesn't compare to his peak physical prowess.


I always wonder, and not just with GW stuff, how much of that is because they put 90% of their promotional materials towards that one part of their product line.

A long, long time ago - I think during the slump of 4th edition or something like that, just before Specialist Games closed down for the second time - I read a statistic/report/something or other that stated that Space Marines accounted for 50% of all GW products. This was when Warhammer Fantasy Battle, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Epic 40k and Lord of the Rings were all still supported, but before Black Library had really started to pick up speed, so if it's even close to true then it's impressive and implies that Space Marines were genuinely just popular.

From what I remember of 2nd edition, when I started playing and when GW pretty much was just 40k or WHF, Space Marines were popular because they were Space Marines. I definitely agree that they have had a considerable push since those long gone days, but I also think it at least started in genuine appeal to players rather than hype alone.
Especially given how AoS exploded in a way that I don't think anyone was able to predict - by all rights it should be the New Popular Kid On The Block, but still Space Marines have nearly as many codices available as AoS has army books combined. AoS was a runaway success, but people still seem to prefer Marines - I find it hard to believe that GW marketing alone is the cause of that, given how many hundreds of thousands of dollars were thrown at the AoS launch.

[Platinius]

Hmm, in the context of Darktide, Fatshark could also have made a game where you play 4 different Sisters of Battle, preferably from different orders and different specs.
They could also have made a group of assassins with each from a different temple to form the group.
They could have taken a member from some of the most famous IG regiments like a Catachan, a Cadian Shocktrooper, a Death Korps of Krieg combat engineer, a Vostoryan Firstborn and Mordant Acid Dog. This would have been neat in part because it could have given them easy material for interaction when they each mention their uniquely horrible homeworlds (or for the Cadian, how it is not there anymore)

I mention these in these groups to keep their relative power level close enough to each other.

[Lord Torath]

Have you tried the Wayback Machine? Or if you've forgotten the URL, do you remember any distinct phrasing from any of the stories that could be used in a targeted search?I don't have the url for the old website.

But here's the short story:The ice was gone, of course, long before the seas themselves went during the sacrilegious bombardment of Holy Terra by the forces of the Great Traitor. All that was left behind was bare rock, rippled and whorled into a new sea of glassy, black stone from the unimaginable forces unleashed during those darkest of days.
Seeking new territory on Holy Terra came the Inquisition; the dread Ordo Hereticus. From one pole, already the site of their hidden headquarters, to another they went, new dungeons to exhume. Under this fused and newly-frozen ocean the Inquisition dug. Deep into the tortured bedrock they went, new halls and chambers won from the cold, dead stone, and filled with unnamable and eldritch secrets wrenched bleeding from a galaxy of horrors, stored far beneath the surface, never to rise.
Their labyrinthine delvings continued over the decades and centuries that followed, their underground empire branching new limbs and organs in the stygian depths, but the rumours that had plagued the sunken fortress of despair could not be buried.
Rumours of a man who stalked the tunnels, the corridors, the hallways in the eternal night, wreathed in red fire and rimmed with hoar-frost. Rumours of a man who was not a man, a daemon who could not be caught, not even by those who hunted the greatest and most mortal enemies of the Imperium. A cursed revenant of ages past who appeared once every year, evading security systems that could catch the mote in a man’s eye, one breath in a hurricane, the shadow of a shadow. Locked doors could not stop him; trusted steel and adamantium like rain unto a wave, and so the Inquisition huddled in their cells once a year, terrified to fall asleep.
But sleep they must, and sleep they did. And awoke, in the fake morning of that fake night, to find by their beds a single piece of darkest anthracite. And always the echoes, fading away down the endless halls and tunnels:
“Ho. Ho. Ho.”

That story was linked to on the old Eastern Fringe Forums, which are now defunct. I guess I could check the Wayback Machine for that one. Here's hoping!
Edit: No joy at the Wayback Fringe. :smallsigh:

[Wraith]

Bittersweet news, for those who remember it - Today is Black Library Rejection Day. Responses are finally coming in from the Halloween Horror submissions, so be sure to check your inboxes if you applied.

Unfortunately, but not really surprisingly, BL weren't interested in my idea for The Usual Suspects-Meets-Hannibal in Space, so...maybe next year? :smallsmile:

[LeSwordfish]

What are some good Imperial Fist Horus Heresy books? In case I was, say, staring down the possibility of picking up a super expensive, super hard to paint army.

A follow up to this: I pulled the trigger on said expensive hard to paint army with a second hand copy of Betrayal at Calth, and picked up Praetorian of Dorn as well, which I enjoyed a lot! Felt like a good contrast of fighting styles and skills, nearly had me wanting an Alpha Legion army instead. I'm really enjoying Dorn's characterisation, though.

[Artanis]

ASTARTES HAS GONE OFFICIAL! :smallbiggrin:

https://youtu.be/LdI3WuiC6Pw

[Renegade Paladin]

ASTARTES HAS GONE OFFICIAL! :smallbiggrin:

https://youtu.be/LdI3WuiC6Pw

And been removed from YouTube.

[Cheesegear]

ASTARTES HAS GONE OFFICIAL! :smallbiggrin:

https://youtu.be/LdI3WuiC6Pw

"Creative gets bought out by GW."
I consider this bad news.

*Flashbacks to EA Games*

[Avaris]

And been removed from YouTube.

Yeah, it’s on the Warhammer Community site now with all parts put together as a single video. I’m not sure it was available as a single video before? But it’s a shame to have lost the separate videos as a record of what came before.

[DemonicAngel]

It's on the community website with lesser graphical quality (720p) which is a shame.. I hope they didn't buy him out just to make sure he doesn't make better stuff then they do.

[Artanis]

Well s***, I didn't notice it had been taken off of YouTube too :smallfrown:

[Destro_Yersul]

It's on the community website with lesser graphical quality (720p) which is a shame.. I hope they didn't buy him out just to make sure he doesn't make better stuff then they do.

It has 1080p now, so that was probably just a processing thing.

[LansXero]

"Creative gets bought out by GW."
I consider this bad news.

*Flashbacks to EA Games*

Better than getting sued, but still unlikely to turn out well.

[Wraith]

Better than getting sued, but still unlikely to turn out well.

It worked out pretty well for Cyanide Studios - they made a serial-numbers-filed-off "homage" to Blood Bowl in 2005, got noticed by GW, and have Blood Bowl 3 coming out this summer. :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

I consider this bad news.

wow who'd have seen that coming

[Avaris]

wow who'd have seen that coming

As is frequently the case, Tabletop Inquirer sums up my position. https://twitter.com/TabletopInq/status/1370099783826821123

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it's pretty clear they made him an offer he can't refuse. The guy was pulling down five figures a month on Patreon, $10,000 minimum, assuming all of his patrons were subscribing at the minimum level. I doubt GW is paying him $120,000/year, but they almost certainly said to get on board or they'd see him in court.

[Cheesegear]

As is frequently the case, Tabletop Inquirer sums up my position. https://twitter.com/TabletopInq/status/1370099783826821123

If I hadn't heard/read everything that I've heard/read about working for/at GW in the last 10 years, I might simp too.

Unfortunately, working at/for GW doesn't seem like 'the dream' anymore. Wrestlers getting signed to WWE is great news! Because WWE is the biggest game in town, and they can pay the most. There's no way that getting signed to WWE isn't fantastic news. But you're still getting signed to WWE - and there are many, many reasons why that's bad news.

Same as getting bought by EA Games. That's a huge paycheck, and now your indy studio has corporate money behind it. Of course that's good news...But is it all good news? No. No it isn't. There are lots of strings attached.

Same as getting signed to GW.

[snowblizz]

It is possible to hold opinions at the same time. Which can overlap to various degrees.

People can 1) recognize that something could be even greater with official backing and money but also know that 2) official backing runs the risk of sucking all the creative life out of it.

It's not the people who "changed their minds" on this that are the dumb ones. It's the people who insist you have to back something no matter what that are.

[Silverraptor]

I'm going to... reserve... all judgement on this until we start seeing actual outcomes of this agreement. No need to run around like chickens in the coup until you know if it's a squirrel or a fox.

[Cheesegear]

I'm going to... reserve... all judgement on this until we start seeing actual outcomes of this agreement...

So, see you in ~5 years after the NDAs expire?

[Silverraptor]

So, see you in ~5 years after the NDAs expire?

Was the time it took him to release his episodic videos all that different?

Edit: Wait. Were you saying he's not going to release anything in 5 years, or that I'm not reserving any right to complain while he is employed by Games Workshop?:smallconfused:

[Avaris]

Was the time it took him to release his episodic videos all that different?

Edit: Wait. Were you saying he's not going to release anything in 5 years, or that I'm not reserving any right to complain while he is employed by Games Workshop?:smallconfused:

I think it’s ‘wait until long after they’ve finished working with GW so they can say all the inevitable bad stuff about working with them’.

Which, fair enough. There will be wrinkles in the relationship with GW that they won’t be able to talk about while working with them. But prediction right now, they won’t be any worse than you’d get with any other company.

As for what GW offered, I don’t think it will have just been about the ‘we’ll sue you otherwise’. The Text to Speech series is still going after all, and that literally uses GW artwork, and is on almost $7k per month on Patreon. Instead, I’ll wager that part of the equation was some or all of:

Reach. On youtube they were only able to reach a subsection of the Warhammer community. Having GW promoting the video will massively increase vierwship
Support. Astartes is a one man show, GW can support it becoming something larger. Group projects are difficult to manage, the Astartes creator may not have wanted to do it themself, but happy for GW to do it
Security. They brought in a lot via Patreon, but how long will that last? A contract with GW might give them desired certainty.
Ambition. Astartes 1 is finished, albeit with clear plans for further content. Collaboration with GW may allow them to do more than they could alone.
Prestige. Working with GW means this essentially becomes canon. Maybe that appealed.

It may be all of these, it may be none of them, we won’t know until they finish working with GW, maybe not even then.

The point is, there are positive reasons for a collaboration. GW is not a evil monolith sucking the joy from everything it touches, it’s just a company, no more good or evil than most. We likely won’t see any clearly negative affects from the collaboration, and probably a lot if benefits.

This is a creator getting ‘official’ support and recognition for a thing they spent a lot of time on. That is a good thing. I’ll judge the resulting content on its own merits when it comes out.

[Cheesegear]

But prediction right now, they won’t be any worse than you’d get with any other company.

Prediction right now, is that they'll treat him exactly as bad as the other ex-artists and creatives.


The Text to Speech series is still going after all, and that literally uses GW artwork,

>Implying that TTS is a competitor in the same market and/or creative space as Warhammer Animations...


[GW is] just a company, no more good or evil than most.

Does a quick Google search; That's a lot of ****ty stuff. Let's see what the 'New GW' magic can bring us...
Looks at GW share prices shooting to the moon.
...My guess is probably more of the same.


I’ll judge the resulting content on its own merits when it comes out.

The content is likely to be excellent. I don't think that's what people are worried about.

[LeSwordfish]

>Implying that TTS is a competitor in the same market and/or creative space as Warhammer Animations...


I imagine that it and similar projects would come up fairly swiftly in his defense against any kind of "work for us or we sue you" lawsuit. Which strikes me as somewhat less than legal.

[LansXero]

I imagine that it and similar projects would come up fairly swiftly in his defense against any kind of "work for us or we sue you" lawsuit. Which strikes me as somewhat less than legal.

Isn't parody legally protected?


>Implying that TTS is a competitor in the same market and/or creative space as Warhammer Animations...


shush you, Farsight fighting an ork in japanese with a Gundam IBO ending theme is canon, no matter what anybody says


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaLsg3M7jOs

[Avaris]

Isn't parody legally protected?


It is, but you could make the argument that TTSD is making stories using the IP that go beyond parody. I’m not sure GW would WIN a legal case on that basis, but if they were of a mind to shut something like TTSD down they could easily make it too expensive to continue through taking it to court as copyright infringement.

They won’t though, because of the bad PR, which is also why I doubt they’d have threatened Astartes with it: if they had refused to work with GW, and made the threat public, it would do a lot of damage to the GW brand in a way that they’ve experienced in the past and presumably want to avoid.

[The Glyphstone]

I cant imagine a company as litigious as GW isn't an expert at the Godfather style 'generous offer you can't refuse' implied-threat-that-isnt-explicitly-threatening.

[Artanis]

Isn't parody legally protected?

In theory, yes. On YouTube, not so much.

Edit: To elaborate, YouTube has a reputation for allowing videos to be taken down due to copyright strikes regardless of the legality. Being the original creator of an IP has proven to not be a defense from having a video taken down by a copyright-strike bot, nevermind whatever legal protections parody has.

[Fyraltari]

In theory, yes. On YouTube, not so much.

Edit: To elaborate, YouTube has a reputation for allowing videos to be taken down due to copyright strikes regardless of the legality. Being the original creator of an IP has proven to not be a defense from having a video taken down by a copyright-strike bot, nevermind whatever legal protections parody has.

I will forever remain amazed that when Lindsay Ellis's video on the Omegaverse lawsuit was copyright striken, YouTube decided that the case was too flimsy and did not take down the video.


This never happens. And yet.

[Renegade Paladin]

I will forever remain amazed that when Lindsay Ellis's video on the Omegaverse lawsuit was copyright striken, YouTube decided that the case was too flimsy and did not take down the video.


This never happens. And yet.

Lindsay Ellis runs a big time channel, at her level they actually get to talk to people at YouTube. That said, I've successfully fought a copyright strike before even with my no-access few hundred subscribers channel, because someone tried to claim a 180 year old public domain song that I performed myself as something entirely different; the case was SO obvious that nobody could even think it had merit.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

As great as Astartes was, the guy was clearly pushing his limits. Maybe, just maybe, he doesn't want to spend another year making five minutes of animation. Community goodwill doesn't pay the bills, and if GW brings the legal axe down on his head all the donations won't amount to much.

I don't know Syama or his situation so I can only speculate. Was he focusing all of his time and energy on Astartes? If so, that's a vulnerability he might have wanted to close off. GW may present themselves as different, but that doesn't mean they won't summon the lawyers when it suits them.

[Eldan]

Lindsay Ellis runs a big time channel, at her level they actually get to talk to people at YouTube. That said, I've successfully fought a copyright strike before even with my no-access few hundred subscribers channel, because someone tried to claim a 180 year old public domain song that I performed myself as something entirely different; the case was SO obvious that nobody could even think it had merit.

She doesn't just have a big channel, as she explained in her follow-up video, she also got several large legal and non-profit organisations involved almost immediately. She has contacts.

[Wraith]

I cant imagine a company as litigious as GW isn't an expert at the Godfather style 'generous offer you can't refuse' implied-threat-that-isnt-explicitly-threatening.

I wasn't being facetious before - this is literally what happened to Cyanide, the guys who approached GW to make a Blood Bowl videogame, were rejected, and went on to 'independently' develop "a fantasy-based sports management game" called Chaos League:


According to Eurogamer, Cyanide originally pitched the game idea to Games Workshop (circa 2001-2002) in hopes of developing a licensed Blood Bowl video game. When they were rejected, they developed Chaos League independently. Besides the obvious connections to the style of the game itself, both being violent fantasy sports, minor similarities were also noticeable to Blood Bowl fans. Most notable were the recurring skills in both like "Mighty Blow", "Bulldoze" and "Projectile". Even during a loading menu in after games, a well known red sun with an Orc face, usually found on Games Workshop inks can be seen in the background.

Games Workshop has announced (in 2006) that Cyanide Studios now have a license to create computer games based on Blood Bowl and that "Any differences between Games Workshop and Cyanide have been amicably settled for an undisclosed sum, and as part of the settlement the Chaos League title has been assigned to Games Workshop"

Cyanide made a game with an Evil Sunz logo in it, then 'settled out of court' (I can't directly say "They agreed to pay damages rather than lose absolutely everything in court" because that would require me to know intimate legal details, which I don't, but under the circumstances it's probably a pretty safe conclusion) and spent 15 years being part owned by GW and making games for them. BB2 and the upcoming BB3 might be a different story, but I can't imagine in the slightest that BB1 was developed entirely voluntarily - especially not with GW being who they were in 2005.

Obviously I can't say for certain that the same thing happened to the Astartes animation team BUT GW once tried to sue someone for using the word "Space Marine" in a novel about furry cat-people, and this time they actually do own the copyrights for nearly everything associated with the imagery in the cartoons. Especially after the whole ChapterHouse thing, wherein GW not only tightened up it's copyrights but legally confirmed a bunch of previously grey area stuff that is now definitively theirs to own and control.

[Cheesegear]

I wasn't being facetious before - this is literally what happened to Cyanide, the guys who approached GW to make a Blood Bowl videogame, were rejected, and went on to 'independently' develop "a fantasy-based sports management game" called Chaos League:
[...] then 'settled out of court'
[...] and [then] spent 15 years being part owned by GW and making games for them. BB2 and the upcoming BB3 might be a different story, but I can't imagine in the slightest that BB1 was developed entirely voluntarily - especially not with GW being who they were in 2005.

It's not that you can't work.
It's not that you can't make what you make.
You just have to make it for the corporation.

Nobody gets sued because everything's all good. You can't infringe copyright when the holder owns your work. Easy.

Join or Die. It's so easy. Choose 'Join', every time. :smallwink:

[Lord Torath]

Do all branches of the Inquisition use the same sigil? A capital "I" crossed three times? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that different branches had different numbers of 'crosses' on the "I".

[Cheesegear]

Do all branches of the Inquisition use the same sigil? A capitol "I" crossed three times?

No.


I seem to recall hearing somewhere that different branches had different numbers of 'crosses' on the "I".

Malcador's sigil is an Eye in the middle. Similar to the Astra Telepathica's.
Starbursts are fairly common.
The Deathwatch have a crossbones.
The Sisters of Silence have...Whatever that is.
Custodes have the Lightning Eagle.

I think the number of strokes on the =][=, and the differing amounts, might come from miniature limitations, not a real stylistic choice. Inquisitors can have their Rosette look like whatever they want, with an I in the middle. The strokes don't really have anything to do with anything as far as I'm aware.

[Wraith]

Going by the various artworks and other confirmed details about rosettes, it would seem that the only mandatory similarity in the design is that it be in the shape of an 'I'. 99% of the examples that I could find also has the image of a skull on the front, but I couldn't find anywhere that definitively said that was a part of the formal design and enough pictures of them don't so even that seems optional.

Otherwise, rosettes are as much heraldic devices as they are functional badges of office. They're often unique to the bearer, with some similarities based on common factors such as red/flame style for Order Hereticus, for example, or a particular design depending on where they are active or in some cases as an homage to who their mentor was. Both Gregor Eisenhorn and Gideon Ravenor's rosettes have a winged design, for example, which might indicate that they operate in the Scarus Sector and/or Segmentum Obscurus, or that there's a 'familial' link.


The Sisters of Silence have...Whatever that is.

A masked face with a 'third eye' on the forehead. Probably both a reference to their uniform armoured facemasks, and as an allusion to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and/or the Adeptus Astronomica who each use a skull/third-eye logo; the Sisters logo is a 'covered psyker', so to speak.

I wonder why the I shape is used to represent 'Adeptus' in their logos? It's a common theme throughout various factions, including Malcador's own and some which predate that. The answer is probably that the GW lore writers came up with the *I*nquisition first and foremost and just stuck with it later, because an 'A' shaped badge or 'M' for Mechanicus and 'T' for Telepathica etc would look a little clunky, but an in-universe reason would be interesting too.

[Eldan]

I'm certain I've quite recently (last week) seen one without the skull somewhere, but now I can't find it.

As for personalized insignia, Lexicanum has this, which it credits to an art book from Black Library:

Edit: can't embed image for some reason. It's this:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Rosettes.jpg

An "I" with wings is apparently the Ordo Chronos.

[Wraith]

Miniatures tend not to have them (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inquisitor#Images) , but artworks almost always do. And some have a non-standard version - Gregor Eisenhorn (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gregor_Eisenhorn), for example, has an =I= shaped rosette with a plain bar across the front, and the (winged) skull balanced on the top.


An "I" with wings is apparently the Ordo Chronos.

The green one is Ordos Xenos - it's very similar to Gideon Ravenor's (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Ravenorrogue.jpg).

That being said, he deliberately modifies his depending on what he's doing - in Ravenor Rogue he changes it to... I want to say purple? I forget exactly, but its supposed to be a universally recognised (among Inquisitors) sign that he is acting without direct orders. Sort of suggests that "I know this looks bad, but I promise I'm still on your side" to hopefully get the benefit of the doubt when he bumps into other Inquisitors.

[Lord Torath]

The green one is Ordos Xenos - it's very similar to Gideon Ravenor's (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Ravenorrogue.jpg).Similar? I'd say identical. Heck, they match down to the cracks on the skull. :smallbiggrin:

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Have we ever had a book explaining how the first inquisitorial symbol was developed? Maybe it's not an "I" for Inquisition, but is in fact a pillar, representing that those who bear it hold up the weight of the entire Imperium on their shoulders. If I had to come up with a post-facto justification, that's what I'd go with.

[Wraith]

Have we ever had a book explaining how the first inquisitorial symbol was developed? Maybe it's not an "I" for Inquisition, but is in fact a pillar, representing that those who bear it hold up the weight of the entire Imperium on their shoulders. If I had to come up with a post-facto justification, that's what I'd go with.

Not yet. They're working towards it in the Siege of Terra novels; the 8 Grey Knights Grand Masters have been collected as have a group of "chosen" humans that Malcador has big plans for - they're presumed to be the founding members of the Inquisition, but they don't know it yet.

We will probably see the founding of the Inquisitors in the not-too-distant future; as Cheesegear said, the I-shaped logo is quite similar to the Mark of the Sigilite, so it's likely a variation of his symbol repurposed because it's one of his projects/sponsored by him.

[Forum Explorer]

That being said, he deliberately modifies his depending on what he's doing - in Ravenor Rogue he changes it to... I want to say purple? I forget exactly, but its supposed to be a universally recognised (among Inquisitors) sign that he is acting without direct orders. Sort of suggests that "I know this looks bad, but I promise I'm still on your side" to hopefully get the benefit of the doubt when he bumps into other Inquisitors.

I believe it was blue. And it's a sign that his enemies have somehow gotten a hold of his orders, either because they are Inquisitors themselves, have somehow compromised an Inquisitor, or are somehow spying on the Inquisition. That or they are going 'dark' for another reason.

[Lord Torath]

Who inherits the galaxy?

We've been told that humanity is pretty much doomed (although in the latest fluff with Guillman's return, that may have changed - I don't know). We've been told explicitly many times that the Eldar Aeldari are doomed. Squats got eaten several editions back. So of those who are left, who's going to win?

The Tau are probably not numerous enough, and their space travel is too slow to eliminate everyone else. If the Imperium wasn't busy fighting orks and tyranids and chaos forces, I think the Tau would be extinct.
Dark Eldar. Are they doomed? I admit I have not read much of their fluff. Is their 'devotion' to Slaanesh enough to keep them alive?
Orks seem like a good candidate. They are almost as difficult to root out of a planet as the Tyranids. Humans fight to live. Ork live to fight.
Chaos. They mostly 'feed' on humans and eldar. Can they get any 'nourishment' from orks? It seems to me that if humanity and the Eldar are gone, Chaos loses anything to feed upon.
Tyranids. These guys have a decent shot, being able to evolve faster than technology can keep up. Is it possible to lure them down an evolutionary path that will leave them vulnerable?
Necrons. A very likely contender. What do they want? Their fluff has changed drastically over the editions. The tyranids want nothing to do with them, and presumably the feeling is mutual. They could simply wait until the tyranids eat everyone else and leave for the next galaxy

[The Glyphstone]

Depending on how their fluff is now, the Necrons hate the Tyranids worse than anyone. Something about how if the nids eat all the biomatter, there's no chance the Silent King can find a way to reverse biotransference?

[Cheesegear]

So of those who are left, who's going to win?

It plays out more or less exactly as follows:

The Imperium can't win without a massive status quo shift. Specifically, the Emperor walking again. Assuming that that doesn't happen; The Imperium slouches towards Chaos, because Chaos is entropy, and entropy is inevitable.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end.
- No matter what Orks do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what Necrons do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what T'au do; Cicatrix.
GW wrote themselves into a corner by literally tearing the Galaxy in half. Chaos. Can't. Lose. At this point.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

Assuming that the Emperor does walk again:
All of the Chaos Primarchs come out of hiding and punch his **** in. Chaos in the last 10 thousand years, has gotten stronger, not weaker - unlike The Emperor.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end. It's not a plot hole. It's a plot rift in the setting that can't be undone without straight up removing it through massive changes in the status quo...Which is what caused it in the first place.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

The Cicatrix Maledictum is the worst thing to happen to setting speculators. Because it literally ruins any ideas you have for a future state of the Galaxy, short of "And then it was eaten by Chaos."

[LansXero]

Who inherits the galaxy?

Nobody. a Chaos win means sentients dissapear and the chaos gods turn their attentions to another galaxy or dissolve. So its suicide. Necrons dont feed them but dynasties dont last forever, they all are prone to engramatic damage so unless they can get souled again they also fade to nothing. If they get souls, chaos and then nothing. Tyranids winning means they eat the galaxy then move on and leave nothing.

[Wraith]

If Chaos "win", sentient life comes to an end as all is consumed in civil war and then whatever is left gets eaten by Daemons until the Gods get bored and go looking for another set of playthings. The next inheritors of the galaxy would be non-sentient creatures who are left to evolve sentience over the next million years or so. There might be an isolated world of 'Feral' humans left out there somewhere in the darkest depths of the void, but as with the rest of humanity it's just a matter of time until one of them is born a Psyker and they too perish.

If Tyranids "win" then it's basically the same thing, except that they consume everything down to a microscopic scale so life would then have to re-evolve from errant protein strands, to amoeba, to 'people' over the next ~3.5billion years. Assuming that it is even possible without the interference of the Old Ones, who are now dead and gone.

[Lord Torath]

What's the Cicatrix Maledictum? I mean, I get it's a rift that split the galaxy in half, but Who, When, Why, and How? I'll accept both in- and out-of-universe answers. :smallamused:

Assuming the Emperor wakes up (or Ahriman succeeds in breaching the Black Library, mastering the Warp and throwing off the corruption of Chaos, slays the Emperor, takes his place and inherits his power) is this something he could undo?

My understanding was that Gork and Mork were as powerful as the Chaos gods combined, and thus could protect the orks from corruption by Chaos.

[JNAProductions]

What's the Cicatrix Maledictum? I mean, I get it's a rift that split the galaxy in half, but Who, When, Why, and How? I'll accept both in- and out-of-universe answers. :smallamused:

Assuming the Emperor wakes up (or Ahriman succeeds in breaching the Black Library, mastering the Warp and throwing off the corruption of Chaos, slays the Emperor, takes his place and inherits his power) is this something he could undo?

My understanding was that Gork and Mork were as powerful as the Chaos gods combined, and thus could protect the orks from corruption by Chaos.

I don't think Gork and Mork are needed to protect Orks-Orks just aren't very susceptible to Chaos to start with. They're simple folk, those Orks are-none of the worry and confusion of humans.

[Lord Torath]

Also, could Gork and Mork stop the Cicatrix Maledictum, were they so inclined?

[JNAProductions]

Also, could Gork and Mork stop the Cicatrix Maledictum, were they so inclined?

Probably-they are the most powerful warp entities-but why would they? Why should they care?

[LansXero]

What's the Cicatrix Maledictum? I mean, I get it's a rift that split the galaxy in half, but Who, When, Why, and How? I'll accept both in- and out-of-universe answers. :smallamused:

Its not a rift, in so far that it doesn't lead anywhere. Its like the Eye of Terror, a lot of no-space where the warp bleeds directly into the material realm. The galaxy there isn't "split", it just isn't, because warp unmakes things and stops them being real.


Assuming the Emperor wakes up (or Ahriman succeeds in breaching the Black Library, mastering the Warp and throwing off the corruption of Chaos, slays the Emperor, takes his place and inherits his power) is this something he could undo?

The warp and the Chaos gods are not synonim. Even an "uncorrupted" warp is still a galaxy sized ocean pouring freely into the materium and eroding its shores with every passing second. Its done, its over.


My understanding was that Gork and Mork were as powerful as the Chaos gods combined, and thus could protect the orks from corruption by Chaos.

Doesn't matter at all. an Ork thrown naked into raw warp will dissolve just the same with or without "protection" from their gods.

[Forum Explorer]

It plays out more or less exactly as follows:

The Imperium can't win without a massive status quo shift. Specifically, the Emperor walking again. Assuming that that doesn't happen; The Imperium slouches towards Chaos, because Chaos is entropy, and entropy is inevitable.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end.
- No matter what Orks do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what Necrons do; Cicatrix.
- No matter what T'au do; Cicatrix.
GW wrote themselves into a corner by literally tearing the Galaxy in half. Chaos. Can't. Lose. At this point.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

Assuming that the Emperor does walk again:
All of the Chaos Primarchs come out of hiding and punch his **** in. Chaos in the last 10 thousand years, has gotten stronger, not weaker - unlike The Emperor.

The Cicatrix Maledictum keeps getting bigger and bigger. Chaos wins. The end. It's not a plot hole. It's a plot rift in the setting that can't be undone without straight up removing it through massive changes in the status quo...Which is what caused it in the first place.

Tyranids Fall. Everyone Dies.

The Cicatrix Maledictum is the worst thing to happen to setting speculators. Because it literally ruins any ideas you have for a future state of the Galaxy, short of "And then it was eaten by Chaos."

Why would the rift grow more at this point? Without someone doing something to make it grow anyways. Chaos' dominion has expanded, but if you wipe out the CSM, they aren't left with that much to threaten the galaxy with. Admittedly, easier said than done, but it is still possible.




Its not a rift, in so far that it doesn't lead anywhere. Its like the Eye of Terror, a lot of no-space where the warp bleeds directly into the material realm. The galaxy there isn't "split", it just isn't, because warp unmakes things and stops them being real.



The warp and the Chaos gods are not synonim. Even an "uncorrupted" warp is still a galaxy sized ocean pouring freely into the materium and eroding its shores with every passing second. Its done, its over.



Doesn't matter at all. an Ork thrown naked into raw warp will dissolve just the same with or without "protection" from their gods.

Stuff doesn't melt in the warp. There are entire planets in the warp that have spent the last 10 000 years inside it. They change, and have weird things happen there, but they don't dissolve into nothingness.

[Grim Portent]

Most chaos planets are technically only half-in the Warp so to speak. Even in the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom and Screaming Vortex daemons can't freely manifest everywhere, as you get deeper in the warp storms become more intense and reality less real, normal life starts to dissolve or change and the rules of the Warp fully replace those of realspace. Most of the mortal inhabitants live in relatively safe regions closer to the rim of the storms, where the effects of chaos aren't severe enough to completely prevent living normal lives.

There are places within the warp storms where reality and the Warp have hit a comfortable equilibrium of sorts, where daemons can walk freely among mortals but the mortals aren't melting into candlewax due to the laws of physics completely changing every ten seconds.

In the actual Warp, the realm of Chaos itself, most creatures literally disolve as the currents of the empyrean unmake them and daemons tear their soul apart. A few things can live there, usually very corrupt beings like Chaos Champions or Warp Talons, very pure and protected beings like Kaldor Draigo, and Orks under certain circumstances*.


*The Chaos Daemons codex from... I think 6th edition had Khorne keeping an Orkish WAAAGH in the mountains around his realm for his daemons to fight forever after they had impressed him after invading a Khornate Daemon World. The Orks fight daemons, die, get ressurrected or grow anew from spores, fight daemons, die again and so forth and shall do so for all eternity in a realm where time doesn't even exist.

[Cheesegear]

but if you wipe out the CSM, they aren't left with that much to threaten the galaxy with.

What? Chaos threatens the Galaxy by sentient and/or emotional beings existing.
Humanity slouches towards Chaos. Chaos Space Marines don't have to do anything, and Humanity will Fall all on its own, perhaps slower. But inevitably. Everything The Emperor did was try to prevent that from happening - He failed.

The Imperium is doomed to Fall to Chaos, or be destroyed by it. It's a foundational aspect of the setting.

[BRC]

What? Chaos threatens the Galaxy by sentient and/or emotional beings existing.
Humanity slouches towards Chaos. Chaos Space Marines don't have to do anything, and Humanity will Fall all on its own, perhaps slower. But inevitably. Everything The Emperor did was try to prevent that from happening - He failed.

The Imperium is doomed to Fall to Chaos, or be destroyed by it. It's a foundational aspect of the setting.

Not necessarily

There are any number of things that could wipe out the Imperium before Chaos gets a chance to. Among them The Imperium Itself deciding to just Exterminatus every planet it controls before Chaos can corrupt them.

(But, yes, the Imperium as a Doomed Civilization, sliding towards oblivion, held up mostly out of sheer inertia due to it's massive scale, is a core part of the setting.


But another part of that is that the Imperium is so huge that Games Workshop could advance the timeline by a century every year or so, and probably go out of business before the Imperium finished it's inevitable decline).

BRC's Uneducated list of "Ways the Imperium may die" (All of these basically come down to "Sol system falls, rest of Imperium shatters and gets swept up by other enemies)

1) 'Nids. That massive hive fleet finally shows up, the shadow in the warp covers the Astronomicon, the Imperium falls even if the 'nids get fought back.

2) 'Crons. Well, the Necrons wouldn't destroy the whole thing themselves, but something something void dragon on Mars causes Mars to go down, fracturing the Adeptus Mechanicus, and causing the Imperium to get torn apart by countless other foes.

3) Chaos forces make a deliberate push to destroy Terra, and succeed this time, either because they're stronger, or the Imperium is just too weak.

4) Imperium destroys itself in a cataclysmic civil war. Survivors fall to Chaos. Everything below this point is pretty memey

5) Orks happen. Something akin to the War of the Beast happens again. Imperium shatters.

6) Tau build a bomb that detonates stars, put it on a robot and manage to get it to the Sol system, where it slips by the defense fleets and detonates the Sun. Enraged Imperium wipes the Tau off the planet before falling to Chaos.

7) Revenge of the Squats.

[Cheesegear]

There are any number of things that could wipe out the Imperium before Chaos gets a chance to.

In which case, a massive, foundational, setting-creating and setting-spanning narrative, is pointless.

The narrative, is that Chaos Consumes All. The Emperor knows it. Necrons know it. Aeldari know it. The only people who don't seem to know it is the audience that doesn't read books.

Coming in at the 11th hour and saying "Just kidding, nope! It's ." is subverting expectations in the way that makes everything that came before the 'twist', pointless. I mean, that's certainly something you can do...If you want everyone to hate you.


Among them The Imperium Itself deciding to just Exterminatus every planet it controls before Chaos can corrupt them.

When the Imperium resorts to Exterminatus, Chaos has won the battle.
When the Imperium starts [I]pre-Exterminatus'ing planets, Chaos has sown so much discord that they have won the war.


1) 'Nids. That massive hive fleet finally shows up, the shadow in the warp covers the Astronomicon, the Imperium falls even if the 'nids get fought back.

Ideally, Chaos wins before that. In most scenarios written post-Cicatrix, Chaos wins.
"Who inherits the Galaxy after that?"
Is the proper question for the proper scenario. Tyranids, probably.

[Grim Portent]

Ideally, Chaos wins before that. In most scenarios written post-Cicatrix, Chaos wins.
"Who inherits the Galaxy after that?"
Is the proper question for the proper scenario. Tyranids, probably.

I'm not sure there'd be much of a Galaxy to claim afterwards. If WHF -> AoS is to be taken as how the gods like to end a session of their Great Game, the Galaxy would be destroyed near completely after the gods are done. Kind of like clearing up after a real game, you put all the terrain back in it's box, remove any chess pieces still on the board or delete a completed save file.

[Cheesegear]

the Galaxy would be destroyed near completely after the gods are done.

It sure would. Lans already nailed it; Chaos wins. Then the Galaxy just...Ends.

There's no winners.
Everyone is losers.
Tyranids float through space until their hibernation is over.
The end.

[Misery Esquire]

I mean, the Rift is just Warp-Space not Chaos Undivided God's Own Personal Banhammer. Ynnaed is a Warp-entity, and the Emperor may as well be retitled Corpse-God* if he were ever to stand back up again, and both benefit from additional warp power. And Corvus is an stab-filled puddle** from living in the Warp, let alone whatever the Wolf King has been up to.

Necrons can work to separate Real and Warp Space, though they don't have the mindset, the cooperation, will, or plan, to do so. And doing so would ruin everyone's lives anyway according to the old fluff.

Tyranids eating everything is Warp agnostic - it'll happen or it won't.

Although, to be fair, no-one else really has shown a plan, manuever or ability to take the Imperium's spot as Holding the Galaxy, or to challenge Chaos' takeover.



*Just to make a mockery of Lorgar's existence. Again.
**See previous footnote

[Forum Explorer]

What? Chaos threatens the Galaxy by sentient and/or emotional beings existing.
Humanity slouches towards Chaos. Chaos Space Marines don't have to do anything, and Humanity will Fall all on its own, perhaps slower. But inevitably. Everything The Emperor did was try to prevent that from happening - He failed.

The Imperium is doomed to Fall to Chaos, or be destroyed by it. It's a foundational aspect of the setting.

I meant as physical agents to go out invading and such. Plenty, in fact most, civilizations that fall to Chaos just sort of self destruct and become either shadows of their former selves or die out entirely. They don't take the galaxy with them. They go extinct, and their ruins and artifacts act as seeds to corrupt future civilizations into falling to Chaos.

[Artanis]

The Chaos Daemons codex from... I think 6th edition had Khorne keeping an Orkish WAAAGH in the mountains around his realm for his daemons to fight forever after they had impressed him after invading a Khornate Daemon World. The Orks fight daemons, die, get ressurrected or grow anew from spores, fight daemons, die again and so forth and shall do so for all eternity in a realm where time doesn't even exist.

As I recall, the Orks thought this was awesome. :smalltongue:

[Avaris]

The problem for me with the Great Rift plot is that it feels like GW wanted something dramatic to change the setting, but weren’t really sure what to do with it after and also wanted Gullimann’s Indomitus Crusade as a thing. In my opinion, they should have committed and basically said ‘the Imperium is no more, individual worlds and sectors are now left to their own devices’. In setting various factions might try and claim they represent the Imperium, and many humans would still worship the Emperor, but as a functional system it is broken.

Rather than the Indomitus Crusade, have Gullimann focus his attention on Ultramar, which becomes the largest of a series of minor Empires. Torchbearer fleets still go out, but realistically the chapters they found or reinforce are on their own apart from that. Perhaps Terra itself is lost, in a ‘no-one knows what happens there’ kind of way, though that might cause issues for the various factions based there.

[LansXero]

The problem for me with the Great Rift plot is that it feels like GW wanted something dramatic to change the setting, but weren’t really sure what to do with it after and also wanted Gullimann’s Indomitus Crusade as a thing. In my opinion, they should have committed and basically said ‘the Imperium is no more, individual worlds and sectors are now left to their own devices’. In setting various factions might try and claim they represent the Imperium, and many humans would still worship the Emperor, but as a functional system it is broken.

Rather than the Indomitus Crusade, have Gullimann focus his attention on Ultramar, which becomes the largest of a series of minor Empires. Torchbearer fleets still go out, but realistically the chapters they found or reinforce are on their own apart from that. Perhaps Terra itself is lost, in a ‘no-one knows what happens there’ kind of way, though that might cause issues for the various factions based there.

This dumps on any large scale conflicts like Baal or Damocles. Any effort to stop Tyranid or Ork incursions mobilizes resources from dozens of worlds and systems... to end up into an stalemate and barely edging in a win. Isolated pockets are just going to get pacman'd up and then the setting is over.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem for me with the Great Rift plot is that it feels like GW wanted something dramatic to change the setting, but weren’t really sure what to do with it after and also wanted Gullimann’s Indomitus Crusade as a thing. In my opinion, they should have committed and basically said ‘the Imperium is no more, individual worlds and sectors are now left to their own devices’. In setting various factions might try and claim they represent the Imperium, and many humans would still worship the Emperor, but as a functional system it is broken.

Rather than the Indomitus Crusade, have Gullimann focus his attention on Ultramar, which becomes the largest of a series of minor Empires. Torchbearer fleets still go out, but realistically the chapters they found or reinforce are on their own apart from that. Perhaps Terra itself is lost, in a ‘no-one knows what happens there’ kind of way, though that might cause issues for the various factions based there.

Without Tyranids being defeated, that's basically just a straight game over for the Imperium. Even the home world of a Space Marine chapter can barely handle a Hive Fleet, and it's a pretty close fight. And those are likely the most militarized planets the Imperium has. Any other planet would just be gobbled.


I think they should've brought back the Lion and Russ as well, and not have them actually agree with Guillimen. The Imperium splits into three loosely associated Kingdoms. Sure, they can all agree to work together to fight against Chaos or a Tyranid invasion, but they all have their own priorities and their own visions on what the Imperium should be, and where it went wrong since they left.

[LansXero]

Without Tyranids being defeated, that's basically just a straight game over for the Imperium. Even the home world of a Space Marine chapter can barely handle a Hive Fleet, and it's a pretty close fight.

Barely as in not at all. The Angels pretty much lost, and they had been weakening it all through the Cryptus system, and also had all their successors with them. Even precious Ultramar itself barely got enough people together to fend them off, and thats the larges 'empire' within the Imperium plus a crapton of assorted Imperial assets being thrown into the conflict.

Any other SM homeworld would likely just get eaten.

[Eldan]

Personally, I'd have fully commited to splitting the Empire in two, with the new galaxy map. (The RPGS seem to be going that way a bit.)

On one side, have Guilliman's ultramar-based empire. More technologically advanced, Primaris marines, relatively xeno-tolerant, sometimes works with Ynnari and Harlequins, open to pragmatism and diplomacy. Same side of the galaxy as the Tau, too.

On the other side... Terra. Headquarter of all the religious nutcases in the galaxy. Double down on the religious imagery, the inquisition, the walking cathedrals, the purity seals. ¨

(It would also help with the Imperial forces alone being twice as big as the entire rest of the game together, but that's just me.) You could even still keep marines on both sides. Ultramarines on one side, Templars on the other. Plus however the rest of the other chapters sort out.

[LansXero]

On one side, have Guilliman's ultramar-based empire. More technologically advanced, Primaris marines, relatively xeno-tolerant, sometimes works with Ynnari and Harlequins, open to pragmatism and diplomacy. Same side of the galaxy as the Tau, too.

that'd be a huge misrepresentation of both the Ynnari and the Harlequins. I dont know why people keep missing that Eldars are hugely xenophobic themselves. They're not waiting around for the Imperium to accept them, they despise humanity even while they might find them useful. Harlequins are tied to their roles even more so than craftworlders are to their paths, so they dont get leeway to deviate from whatever Cegorach has designed.


On the other side... Terra. Headquarter of all the religious nutcases in the galaxy. Double down on the religious imagery, the inquisition, the walking cathedrals, the purity seals. ¨

So, the Watchers of the Throne series.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Yeah they really missed an opportunity to have Imperial vs Imperial civil wars here with nobody in the "wrong". Still the potential for a new loyalist Primarch to show up and oppose Guilliman tho.

[Bohandas]

Does anybody know if any of the other chaos gods' cults have a catchphrase akin to Khorne's "Blood for the blood god" and "Skulls for the skull throne".

(I know Slaanesh has "Things will get loud now" but that's more the noise troopers specifically rather than the entire cult, isn't it?)

[Grim Portent]

Does anybody know if any of the other chaos gods' cults have a catchphrase akin to Khorne's "Blood for the blood god" and "Skulls for the skull throne".

(I know Slaanesh has "Things will get loud now" but that's more the noise troopers specifically rather than the entire cult, isn't it?)

Not really, Khorne's the only one with a standard phrase. All the catchphrases I can think of for other chaos worshippers are specific to the group rather than to their god, both in 40k and in WHF.

'Things will get loud now,' is also only a noise marine catchphrase in Dawn of War, and caught on among fans because it's memeable, as is 'This quiet offends Slaanesh.'

[Renegade Paladin]

"Count the Seven" for Nurgle.

[Eldan]

that'd be a huge misrepresentation of both the Ynnari and the Harlequins. I dont know why people keep missing that Eldars are hugely xenophobic themselves. They're not waiting around for the Imperium to accept them, they despise humanity even while they might find them useful. Harlequins are tied to their roles even more so than craftworlders are to their paths, so they dont get leeway to deviate from whatever Cegorach has designed

Not how I meant it. I play Harlequins, after all. I meant it more like Guillman's empire going from "purge the Xeno" to "be wary of the xeno, they are probably backstabbing us, but they did help me once".

[Eldan]

Does anybody know if any of the other chaos gods' cults have a catchphrase akin to Khorne's "Blood for the blood god" and "Skulls for the skull throne".

(I know Slaanesh has "Things will get loud now" but that's more the noise troopers specifically rather than the entire cult, isn't it?)

"Burn with* the Fires of Changes" in Warhammer Fantasy, not sure it ever made it to 40k. There's also "My Thirst shall never be sated", but that's more a thing Slaanesh says, not their followers. Uh, there's also "From your wounds the fester pours", but that's not used much. Also, not at all ironically, "Seek the Beauty in all Things" is the first teaching of Nurgle, but not much of a battle cry.

*or "in"

[The Glyphstone]

At least according to a reddit post I found:



Disregarding the meme answers, the canon ones are:

Slaanesh:

"For the Dark Prince!"

"Pain and Pleasure!"

"Hear the Dirge of Slaanesh!"

"Children of the Emperor, Death to his foes!" (Emperor's Children)

Siren Songs (singing to tempt enemies into their embrace)

Tzeentch:

"All is Dust!" (Thousand Sons)

Tend not to have a warcry on account of it affirming allegiances, and giving away potential plots

Nurgle:

"Common Cold! Influenza! Nasty Rash! Distemper!"

"Rot and Ruin!/Rust and Rot!/Ruin and Rust!" (The three pustules of Nurgle represent Rot, Rust and Ruin.)

"Suffer and despair!"

Complete Silence (Death Guard)

The most common chant, from Nurgle daemons, is listing the assorted plagues in existence.

Khorne:

"Blood for the Blood God!"

"Skulls for the Skull Throne!"

Malal:

Complete silence (Sons of Malice)

[Eldan]

Oh yeah. The full chant of nurgle as I know it is ""Buboes, phlegm, blood and guts! Boils, abscesses, rot and pus! Blisters, fevers, weeping sores! From your wounds the fester pours!" and similar, from a few sources. So yeah, listing plagues. It's also what we used in the various RPGs.

[Grim Portent]

I only recall seeing that warcry attributed to a nurgle carnival.

[Forum Explorer]

Barely as in not at all. The Angels pretty much lost, and they had been weakening it all through the Cryptus system, and also had all their successors with them. Even precious Ultramar itself barely got enough people together to fend them off, and thats the larges 'empire' within the Imperium plus a crapton of assorted Imperial assets being thrown into the conflict.

Any other SM homeworld would likely just get eaten.

Right, I thought the Ultramarines did a bit better than that, but I suppose it did come down to a lucky warp rift forming from a destroyed ship.

[Cheesegear]

but I suppose it did come down to a lucky warp rift forming from a destroyed ship.

It's weird how often deus ex machinas are used to win battles in 40K.
Maybe The Emperor really does protect?

"...and then Kor'sarro Khan abandoned his oath for the exact scenario he said he wouldn't abandon his oath for."
...Oh wait. That's how T'au survived.

[Forum Explorer]

It's weird how often deus ex machinas are used to win battles in 40K.
Maybe The Emperor really does protect?

"...and then Kor'sarro Khan abandoned his oath for the exact scenario he said he wouldn't abandon his oath for."
...Oh wait. That's how T'au survived.

Tau had so many Deus Ex Machinas in that campaign, starting with the general 'This man is a famous leader, who is brave and renowed for his tactics. Now watch him basically resort to human wave tactics instead of oh, I don't know, actually using artillery?'

Or the whole last minute rescue by Farsight.

[noob]

This setting literally have physics that makes having deus ex machina happening all the time more logical than the opposite.
Ex: the warp being shaped by the collective psyches of the people.
However it should be less likely for the tau than for more psychic creatures like humans or orks.

[Lord Torath]

The narrative, is that Chaos Consumes All. The Emperor knows it. Necrons know it. Aeldari know it. The only people who don't seem to know it is the audience that doesn't read books."That's me and two others!" :smallwink:

[LansXero]

Tau had so many Deus Ex Machinas in that campaign, starting with the general 'This man is a famous leader, who is brave and renowed for his tactics. Now watch him basically resort to human wave tactics instead of oh, I don't know, actually using artillery?'

Artillery into the dust cloud? Against shields that they couldn't break from orbit?


Or the whole last minute rescue by Farsight.

Which was very well explained; the mess there is his invisible ships, not the rescue itself.

While there is a lot of hyperbole that campaign to me is the peak of narrative intertwined with gameplay. New units make a debut, new rules are added, all tied together with an exciting, if formulaic, narrative event. In-world justifications for a bunch of stuff are tried and some awesome scenes come out of it, and then they hit the reset button and back to status quo. But a reset button you knew from the start was there, so its not an asspull.

[Forum Explorer]

Artillery into the dust cloud? Against shields that they couldn't break from orbit?



Which was very well explained; the mess there is his invisible ships, not the rescue itself.

While there is a lot of hyperbole that campaign to me is the peak of narrative intertwined with gameplay. New units make a debut, new rules are added, all tied together with an exciting, if formulaic, narrative event. In-world justifications for a bunch of stuff are tried and some awesome scenes come out of it, and then they hit the reset button and back to status quo. But a reset button you knew from the start was there, so its not an asspull.

Against the Tau doing hit and run attacks against their vanguard on the march there.


The invisible ships, yes.

[LansXero]

Against the Tau doing hit and run attacks against their vanguard on the march there.

But those are by the invisible teams precisely so they dont get shelled out before uncovering their position. Also, he had an absurdly tight schedule to comply with; were he afforded the time to deploy camp and conduct a proper siege, then he would've likely done that.

[Forum Explorer]

But those are by the invisible teams precisely so they dont get shelled out before uncovering their position. Also, he had an absurdly tight schedule to comply with; were he afforded the time to deploy camp and conduct a proper siege, then he would've likely done that.

Speaking of the schedule, I don't understand why they were on such a tight schedule. I mean, I could understand why the fleets and the space marines would have to leave, but why the Imperial Guard too?

Also they weren't Stealth Teams, there were very much tank duels against Hammerheads and the like.

[noob]

Speaking of the schedule, I don't understand why they were on such a tight schedule. I mean, I could understand why the fleets and the space marines would have to leave, but why the Imperial Guard too?

Also they weren't Stealth Teams, there were very much tank duels against Hammerheads and the like.

Tanks are stealthy if creed is around.

[LansXero]

Speaking of the schedule, I don't understand why they were on such a tight schedule. I mean, I could understand why the fleets and the space marines would have to leave, but why the Imperial Guard too?

Also they weren't Stealth Teams, there were very much tank duels against Hammerheads and the like.

They were still jamming the crap out of their auspexes and using the ruined battlefield to cover their aproach. Also he had the numbers to not really care about losses so long as the advance remained steady, remeber that the Imperium doesn't actually lose, they just run out of time and go "nebula burns, everyone dies". There were a ton of soldiers and machines evacuating at the end after all.

[Forum Explorer]

They were still jamming the crap out of their auspexes and using the ruined battlefield to cover their aproach. Also he had the numbers to not really care about losses so long as the advance remained steady, remeber that the Imperium doesn't actually lose, they just run out of time and go "nebula burns, everyone dies". There were a ton of soldiers and machines evacuating at the end after all.

I know. I'm just absolutely sick of the Imperial Guard being portrayed as only capable of human wave tactics. Yeah, they won, and yeah they didn't need to care about their losses. It's still stupidly sloppy in my opinion and it wouldn't have taken much for them to do even better.

[LansXero]

I know. I'm just absolutely sick of the Imperial Guard being portrayed as only capable of human wave tactics. Yeah, they won, and yeah they didn't need to care about their losses. It's still stupidly sloppy in my opinion and it wouldn't have taken much for them to do even better.

Not that I disagree in principle, but at least in this case they make a point even before deployment of why rushing is all thats left to them. Pask losing the ace duel to Longstrike stings more, mostly because I hate 'cool, collected, reasonable' characters ever winning. Whats the point of obsesively devoting to one aspect of your existence if a more balanced ******* will still outdo you at that one thing?

If anything though, it all comes down to mechanicus greed and incompetence. Even through the weather generators (that the AdMech failed to detect), the jamming and the invisible BS (that the AdMech failed to counter) they still were making progress until their flank literally evaporated (because the AdMech was only there to steal stuff for themselves). Even with a jank ass strategy and every factor against them, the hammer of the emperor was breaking through, until it was just too much all at once. Even the Tau had accepted the loss x___x.

Best scene though? When they realize they cant crack the Obsidian Knight and shoot at the ground :D. Its YGO levels of bull**** right there, while at the same time being entirely logical and reasonable.

[Lord Torath]

In case anyone's interested, Humble Bundle (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/warhammer-40000-stories-2021-black-library-books?hmb_source=&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=mosaic_section_1_layout_index_1_layou t_type_threes_tile_index_2_c_warhammer40000stories 2021blacklibrary_bookbundle) has a bundle of Black Library books available for the next two weeks (13 days, 21 hours, 28 minutes as of this posting).

(Also, I'm not affiliated with Humble Bundle)

[Brookshw]

In case anyone's interested, Humble Bundle (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/warhammer-40000-stories-2021-black-library-books?hmb_source=&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=mosaic_section_1_layout_index_1_layou t_type_threes_tile_index_2_c_warhammer40000stories 2021blacklibrary_bookbundle) has a bundle of Black Library books available for the next two weeks (13 days, 21 hours, 28 minutes as of this posting).

(Also, I'm not affiliated with Humble Bundle)

I like how all the $1 bundle are all guard books, even books about the guard are cheap (and disposable?)

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

I like how all the $1 bundle are all guard books, even books about the guard are cheap (and disposable?)

The real deciding factor on disposability is if they come with pre-punched holes in the corner a la the Farmers Almanac for you to hang in your outhouse!

[Bohandas]

- No matter what Necrons do; Cicatrix.

What about their blackstone pylon technology?

[Cheesegear]

What about their blackstone pylon technology?

Problem: Abaddon spends ten thousand years destroying Pylons, with the culmination of his plan ending up creating the Cicatrix.

Solution: You must build additional Pylons.

[Forum Explorer]

Problem: Abaddon spends ten thousand years destroying Pylons, with the culmination of his plan ending up creating the Cicatrix.

Solution: You must build additional Pylons.

As awesome of a reference that is, that does actually make sense. Abaddon mostly destroyed the Pylons when they were deactivated, and relatively undefended. The Necrons could build new ones, ones that they are guarding, and that are more actively denying the warp.

[Renegade Paladin]

As awesome of a reference that is, that does actually make sense. Abaddon mostly destroyed the Pylons when they were deactivated, and relatively undefended. The Necrons could build new ones, ones that they are guarding, and that are more actively denying the warp.

Isn't that the whole deal with the Pariah Nexus?

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Aye, the Pariah Nexus is very much the Necron response to the Cicatrix. And also that first piece of short fiction they put out about the miners just losing their will was some amazing horror writing.

[Corvus]

Warhammer 3 news is coming out this week. Been a long period of silence but finally we are getting something. And if it follows on from the teaser, we are starting with Kislev vs Khorne. Content creators and journos have already had a play with an advanced build and there have been one or two leaks so far as well.

On other things, I haven't really been paying more than passing interest in Warhammer for a long time. Not really since the time of Squats and epic scale. I actually didn't find out WFB had been squatted until a year after it happened. But I had a bit of a nostalgia hit the other day and went reminiscing, only to find out that the White Dwarf issue I was recalling was thirty years old.

It was about the old Ork Freebooterz from back in 2e WH40K. Which led me to going through some other stuff. Man, Orks were so random back then, which was half the fun. I can understand why they changed it, what with the model has to represent what it actually has, and for balance issues, but rolling randomly for gear and never knowing what you were going to end up with was fun. Of course you could never know if that amazing kustomized weapon was actually rolled up or not by your opponent without actually seeing it happen. (And this seems to have been where Ghazghkull originated, as a few random rolls on gear and bionik bitz charts for an in-house Goff army - he wan't even a warlord, just a mere warboss).

Anyway, freebooter - they had some truely bizarre options that seem to have long been dropped. Such as Khorne worshiping Stormboyz, Chaos Renegade Ork Warbands (complete with random gifts), Mutated (but non-Chaos) Orks, Daemon possessed Weirdboyz, human mercenaries who imitate Orks, complete to clothing style, painting their skins green and using Orkish language, and Ork-genestealer hybrids. And the Blood Axes could actually take Imperial Guard units who were pretending to be mercenaries but had been sent to fight alongside the Blood Axes for whatever reason the Imperium had decided on.

Yeah, a lot seems to have changed since those ancient days.

[Wraith]

Quite a surprising amount of that still exists in the stories and lore - the Ork-imitating humans are called Diggas, for example, and they had a whole spin-off game made about them around 1999 or so.

Just about the only thing in there that doesn't get a mention in the books is probably the Orks who directly worship the Chaos Gods, and even then there are Waaghs who ended up in Khorne's realm and endlessly fight Chaos Daemons - resurrecting each morning, Valhalla-style - for His amusement. Insofar as anyone can tell, the Orks are having a fantastic time in there. :smalltongue:

[Grim Portent]

I think there was also a White Dwarf article that had rules for a Grey Knights vs Nurgle Corrupted Orks a long while back.

I always like the little snippets of chaos/xenos lore, like the corrupted genestealer cults that are referenced but not described, or the various minor xenos with vague relationships with chaos like the loxatl and the sslyth, or the insinuations from FW that some eldar corsairs are corrupted.

Of course I also the handful idea of xenos/xenos interactions we get, like the Eldar and Stryxis mutual burning hatred of one another.

[Corvus]

Quite a surprising amount of that still exists in the stories and lore - the Ork-imitating humans are called Diggas, for example, and they had a whole spin-off game made about them around 1999 or so.

Its a shame it is relegated to the lore really. Be fun to have options to play some of that weird stuff, like ork-genestealer hybrids or some really random freebooter army.

[LansXero]

Its a shame it is relegated to the lore really. Be fun to have options to play some of that weird stuff, like ork-genestealer hybrids or some really random freebooter army.

You can always play older editions or make them up as kitbashes and fandexes. I for one welcome the streamlining and the reduction of dead SKUs / trash option bloat.

[Eldan]

Diggaz are a thing in our store, but that's only because the local store owner wrote his own ruleset for what started as ork trukk racing and gradually evolved to include more ork-adjacent factions. Diggaz are very popular since there's a lot of cool model options and they get some nice vehicle upgrades that orks don't have.

[snowblizz]

Diggaz are a thing in our store, but that's only because the local store owner wrote his own ruleset for what started as ork trukk racing and gradually evolved to include more ork-adjacent factions. Diggaz are very popular since there's a lot of cool model options and they get some nice vehicle upgrades that orks don't have.
Why not just play Gorkamorka?


Quite a surprising amount of that still exists in the stories and lore - the Ork-imitating humans are called Diggas, for example, and they had a whole spin-off game made about them around 1999 or so.

What you are describing is the Diggaz faction from the Gorkamorka game. The remnants of the imperial presence on the planet the Ork spacehulk or ship crashed into. They were an expansion pack faction together with the Grot Rebellion and I believe the Muties.

On that note, I ran across a Mad Max game and playing it the thing that kept coming to my mind was that this would be a very very good basis fora Gorkamorka game. It's seriously like 70% there already. Just changing the gfx skins and make it 85%.

Both Gorkamorka and Necromunda were games my gaming group really wanted to have ago at but already at the turn of the millennia they were a bit too much fringe for it to work.

[Wraith]

Why not just play Gorkamorka?

Because it sucked?

Well, no, that isn't fair. I played Gorkamorka, and was accidentally shipped a copy of the expansion book so I even played that too, and I enjoyed what I remember of it. It was just horribly under-supported, like every other Specialist Game at the time, and slightly more exploitative than most.
Gorkamorka was basically an experiment to see how a new range of plastic trukks could be mass-produced before being released for 40k, and was a test-run for the 3rd edition Armour Penetration rules. Knocking out a game for it with art assets that would immediately get recycled in Codex Orks/3e just meant that GW got customers to pay them for the privilege of taking part in Q&A for 3rd Edition 40k.


What you are describing is the Diggaz faction from the Gorkamorka game. The remnants of the imperial presence on the planet the Ork spacehulk or ship crashed into. They were an expansion pack faction together with the Grot Rebellion and I believe the Muties.

The unfortunately titled Digganob expansion, which led to an unfortunate advertising campaign that a Blackshirt once told me about - when GW were pushing Gorkamorka as a product, some bright spark had the idea of running leagues in GW Stores wherein the staff would keep your Mob (roster) sheet and you'd play in a campaign once per week.

The way they were going to advertise this? With a giant banner across the front window which read "Have YOU got the 'ardest Nob**!?". Fortunately veto'd by just about every store manager in the world, but still....

** For non-English speakers out there, or you young 'uns who just haven't come across it before; 'Nob' is British slang for 'Penis'.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I had a friend who wanted to incorporate Gorkamorka into a Rogue Trader game we were going to do: the idea would be that the Rogue Trader (played by me) and his crew (the rest of the players) would crashland on the planet and have to fight/negotiate with the various local factions in order to get their vessel void-worthy again and figure out a way to get it off the planet once and for all. It was gonna be a whole big story arc for the campaign, but it never really got going. :smallsigh:

[Corvus]

The gameplay preview for Total War Warhammer 3 (and brief developer interviews) has come out. I'd hoped for a little more to be honest, as their was nothing of campaign gameplay, maps, rosters or the like, but I guess it is early days.

At the same time, GW also released some more information (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/13/a-giant-bear-beats-up-daemons-in-total-war-warhammer-iiis-new-gameplay-trailer/), tying into to TW3 and also The Old World. The new units previewed, specifically the sled mounted artillery pulled by bears and the massive elemental bear were designed by GW for use with TOW as well as WH3. And there is a new map of Kislev. Interestingly, Norse Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves and the Hobgoblin Khanate all feature on the map.

Also, one of the developers for WH3 said that expanding to the far east with Cathay allowed them to feature new races never before seen in the Warhammer IP. It could just be hype spiel or it could be an indication that we may get not just Cathay in the far east, but also places like Nippon and Ind.

[Brookshw]

The gameplay preview for Total War Warhammer 3 (and brief developer interviews) has come out. I'd hoped for a little more to be honest, as their was nothing of campaign gameplay, maps, rosters or the like, but I guess it is early days.

At the same time, GW also released some more information (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/13/a-giant-bear-beats-up-daemons-in-total-war-warhammer-iiis-new-gameplay-trailer/), tying into to TW3 and also The Old World. The new units previewed, specifically the sled mounted artillery pulled by bears and the massive elemental bear were designed by GW for use with TOW as well as WH3. And there is a new map of Kislev. Interestingly, Norse Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves and the Hobgoblin Khanate all feature on the map.

Also, one of the developers for WH3 said that expanding to the far east with Cathay allowed them to feature new races never before seen in the Warhammer IP. It could just be hype spiel or it could be an indication that we may get not just Cathay in the far east, but also places like Nippon and Ind.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if GW uses this as an experiment to see if expanding their product line to see if they can get more of a foothold in the Asian market (inb4 recasters beat them to it). TW3K already gives some hard numbers for how much untapped potential they have out there in comparing it's sales to TWW (as if it weren't obvious). If you're gonna redesign the game a'la Old World, why not do so in a way to appeal to your new market targets?

I can't wait to find out more about the settlement battle maps and siege rework.

[Wraith]

I've been catching up on my reading lately, thanks to a sudden drafting of GW novels added to Audible and GW themselves deigning to finally sell me some of the stuff that I've been asking for in the last year, so let's do a couple of super-fast book reviews.

Spoilers, ahoy!

Dull, irrelevant, and the DA's come off unfavourably as Marty Stu's.

The premise is that the Blood Angels conquer-... sorry, "brought to Compliance" a world that was inhabited by psychic Body Snatchers who possessed human hosts and ate their souls, leaving them dull-witted, passionless and servitor-like. The BA's thought that they had exterminated the xenos, but it turns out that they missed some so the DA's are sent to quell a minor rebellion and refortify the planet while they figure all of this out - by which point, Xenos infiltrators have made it aboard the DA fleet and started another rebellion while the Astartes are stuck down below.

And that's about it. The Lion doesn't even turn up until about halfway through the book, at which point he commends his XO on having done a really good job before telling him to double all the guards and build twice as many fortresses. He then has an extended monologue at the planet telling it that he's going to kill it and tame it for the Emperor... and then he does. There are no long-term ramifications, no other legions or Primarchs are involved, it's just a very long tale about Dark Angels slowly pacifying a planet because they're so great and really REALLY good at doing their job, you guys....

There's some interesting lore in there about how the Dark Angels are perceived by the Emperor. While the Space Wolves are the Emperor's executioners, and the World Eaters are the Emperor's butchers, the Dark Angels are the guys you send to just up and genocide a culture. Their 'thing' is that they are just the best at scouring all life from a world with the minimum amount of effort or fuss, and that is how they earned most of their accolades, and what's more, the Lion is completely okay with this - that is terrifying and also great at the same time.

But the story is a slog; 300 pages of telling us how great the Dark Angels are and how flawless the Lion is, and then some random never-seen before, never-see-again xenos pops up and gets blown up a lot. Nobody looks good because the whole plot is set in motion by the DA's failing basic quarantine procedures and then they resolve it without any particular angst or reflection on why they went wrong or how they could have done better OOOH FORESHADOWING!

Even the Lion is at his most bland. Without Guilliman to snipe at and threaten, or Leman Russ to actively prove himself morally superior, or Night Haunter to do the "dark mirror" thing against, he's very one-dimensional. I don't often come across a literary character who seems to be 'phoning in their appearance, but... yep. Pretty much.

Let me get it perfectly straight that I came away from this novel really liking Luther. He's given a lot of depth and openly discusses his motivations leading to the schism, why he thought it was a good idea, and how in hindsight he realises just how badly he was deceived and what it has cost him. I am now genuinely intrigued to find out how this version of Luther is going to interact with the updated Codex: Dark Angels lore that says he is now leading a huge, secret army of Fallen, because the important fact revealed in the book is that he refused to fall to Chaos.
Lies? Maybe. Self-delusion? Possibly. But the story clearly spells out what he had to do to formally sign up with Team Traitor, and he consciously doesn't do it. The ramifications of that are astounding to any DA fan.

Unfortunately, Luther's characterisation is by far the best part of the novel. He interacts with a bunch of DA Chapter Masters who interrogate him at various points in history, and he tells them a story from his early life. Then they tragically take away the entirely wrong moral from the point he was trying to make, dooming them to death or failure and encouraging their successor to see Luther as even more of a trickster, liar, manipulator and traitor.

Which ultimately means that we're back to the same problem as Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, the other 30/Heresy-era DA novels; most of the book is spent discussing pre-Crusade events on Caliban, which are all irrelevant Aesops about knights riding on horses and talking in Ye Olde Englishe to each other. It's the opposite of Bolter porn, the GW syndrome of writing stories about super soldiers shooting and stabbing each other for endless identical pages - there's so little 30k/40k in the story that it's many steps closer to a Warhammer Fantasy novel than it is a Dark Angels one.

If you're interested in the Dark Angel meta-plot about who the Fallen are, why the Unforgiven are so tragic, and what could be happening to the Dark Angels/Fallen in the next big shifts in the plot, you should definitely read this book with the caveat that you can probably skip the middle 10 pages of each Chapter and just go to the summary at the end where Luther finishes his story and his captor reacts to it. That's the interesting and relevant bit, and the rest is purple prose about stuff that barely even mattered before the Lion was discovered.

Beta Bequin is still a huge Mary Sue, and I'm saying that about a character who appears in a book alongside Gregor Eisenhorn, Gideon Ravenor, Patience Kys, Harlon Nayl and a Tactical Squad of space marines made up by one of each Legion, Loyalist and Traitor alike. She is once again the subject of a long list of coincidences that just happen to go right for her, leading to a miraculous outcome that no one else could possibly have found... Even though her entire contribution is to literally stumble about in the dark and trip over it at one point.
No, seriously, that happens - she gets lost in the dark, trips over something, and it gets her a naked mutant Blood Angel as a loyal servant thereafter. Not even joking.

And yet, the bits which don't feature Beta are pretty great. The book goes to lengths to show why both Eisenhorn and Ravenor are both right in doing what they do, and are so very similar for it despite their protests and clashes... But ultimately both represent something which is bad for humanity, and that at best only one of them has an inkling to that but is so thoroughly trapped by the situation that he can't do anything about it. "There needs to be a third option" is hinted at, by way of Beta herself, and similarly comes into play later towards the end....

Speaking of which, the reveal at the end of the book sent chills down my spine though, I will admit. How we got to that reveal happens in a typically "Bequin" manner (she accidentally meets a blind, drunk guy in a bar and he later turns out to be a psychic super-mathematician who also build a telescope that can see into the warp so he can use it to break a super-secret unbreakable code for her) but the twist itself immediately made me want to read 3 more books to try and figure out just what it all means and how it got there in the first place.

The meta-story and the implications for the 40k universe featured in this book are bigger and better than it has any right to be, and makes up for quite a lot of purple prose and lazy coincidences that are used to get us from Point A to point B. It's a lot like the new Star Wars trilogy, in a way - lots of great set-pieces and individual lines of dialogue, strung together by implausible happenstance and unfortunately whiny exposition. Like the Star Wars trilogy, I'm glad that I experienced it, but I'm not in a rush to go back and see it again.

Bottom line: GW still can't make heresy-era Dark Angels interesting, and Dan Abnett may have earned a reprieve. For now.

[Corvus]

Cathay (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/14/watch-grand-cathay-come-to-life-in-an-epic-collaboration-for-total-war-warhammer-iii/)has been revealed for WH3 (https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-grand-cathay-faq/)and with it comes a bunch of retcons, as to be expected.

The Dragon Emperor is know confirmed to be an actually dragon, and not just any dragon. He and his consort, the Moon Empress, are immortal dragons who have always ruled Cathay (except maybe that Monkey King incident that remains unmentioned), and have been around since before the Old Ones arrived. Not only that but they are said to be as powerful as most of the gods.

So what does someone that powerful do? Apparently sit around the Celestial city all day nasal gazing. They aren't playable and instead that falls to their children, more immortal dragons who can assume human form and rule various parts of the Empire. They must have been asleep when the End Times happened as well...

GW actually stated out their units using 8th ed rules and they are described as having a stalwart, hardy frontline with incredible ranged firepower, while being slow and easy to flank. Sounds like dwarves, but unlike dwarves they also get cavalry, flying cav, dragons, giant terracotta warriors and flying Chinese lanterns with guns onboard.

[Platinius]

I've been catching up on my reading lately, thanks to a sudden drafting of GW novels added to Audible and GW themselves deigning to finally sell me some of the stuff that I've been asking for in the last year, so let's do a couple of super-fast book reviews.

Spoilers, ahoy!

Dull, irrelevant, and the DA's come off unfavourably as Marty Stu's.

The premise is that the Blood Angels conquer-... sorry, "brought to Compliance" a world that was inhabited by psychic Body Snatchers who possessed human hosts and ate their souls, leaving them dull-witted, passionless and servitor-like. The BA's thought that they had exterminated the xenos, but it turns out that they missed some so the DA's are sent to quell a minor rebellion and refortify the planet while they figure all of this out - by which point, Xenos infiltrators have made it aboard the DA fleet and started another rebellion while the Astartes are stuck down below.

And that's about it. The Lion doesn't even turn up until about halfway through the book, at which point he commends his XO on having done a really good job before telling him to double all the guards and build twice as many fortresses. He then has an extended monologue at the planet telling it that he's going to kill it and tame it for the Emperor... and then he does. There are no long-term ramifications, no other legions or Primarchs are involved, it's just a very long tale about Dark Angels slowly pacifying a planet because they're so great and really REALLY good at doing their job, you guys....

There's some interesting lore in there about how the Dark Angels are perceived by the Emperor. While the Space Wolves are the Emperor's executioners, and the World Eaters are the Emperor's butchers, the Dark Angels are the guys you send to just up and genocide a culture. Their 'thing' is that they are just the best at scouring all life from a world with the minimum amount of effort or fuss, and that is how they earned most of their accolades, and what's more, the Lion is completely okay with this - that is terrifying and also great at the same time.

But the story is a slog; 300 pages of telling us how great the Dark Angels are and how flawless the Lion is, and then some random never-seen before, never-see-again xenos pops up and gets blown up a lot. Nobody looks good because the whole plot is set in motion by the DA's failing basic quarantine procedures and then they resolve it without any particular angst or reflection on why they went wrong or how they could have done better OOOH FORESHADOWING!

Even the Lion is at his most bland. Without Guilliman to snipe at and threaten, or Leman Russ to actively prove himself morally superior, or Night Haunter to do the "dark mirror" thing against, he's very one-dimensional. I don't often come across a literary character who seems to be 'phoning in their appearance, but... yep. Pretty much.

Change a few names and it sounds like a Deathwatch story.

Which reminds me, is there an acceptable Deathwatch novel out there?

[LeSwordfish]

I hear excellent things about Deathwatch by Steve Parker, though note that it's fairly old and predates a lot of the modern deathwatch lore.

[Wraith]

Change a few names and it sounds like a Deathwatch story.

It would have been better as a DW story, to be honest. Have some random Chapter get infiltrated by a mind-controlling xenos and then send the DW into their battle barge to clean up the mess, it would have been great.

For it to be the Dark Angels at the peak of their pre-Heresy power, though? It just makes them look like idiots.


Which reminds me, is there an acceptable Deathwatch novel out there?

The Last Son of Dorn by Gareth Armstrong it pretty good - it's broadly about the founding of the Deathwatch during the War of the Beast. The biggest downside is that it's book 10 out of 12 so you might miss a lot of the build up if you jump straight into it.

I've heard that Storm of Damocles is okay. That's all though - damned by faint praise, perhaps, but a double-feature with DW and the White Scars if you're into that.

[thethird]

I hear excellent things about Deathwatch by Steve Parker, though note that it's fairly old and predates a lot of the modern deathwatch lore.

I really enjoyed those, I really enjoy Deathwatch in general though, but those were great. It doesn't focus only on first founding chapters (which to me is a good thing) and has a Death Spectres Librarian, a Lamenters Dreadnought, and an Exorcist marine (as an example).

[Drasius]

Which reminds me, is there an acceptable Deathwatch novel out there?

https://www.booktopia.com.au/covers/big/9781784966225/0000/deathwatch.jpg

Read this a couple of years ago and loved it, almost every single story in there was good.

Reading that led to me reading this:

https://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Product/DefaultBL/large/BLPROCESSED-Deathwatch%20Ignition.jpg

Which I also loved and had a very high ratio of good stories.

Highly recommend both for someone keen on deathwatch stuff.

If you like Talon Squad, get you some more with this one:

https://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Product/DefaultBL/large/deathwatch-2013.jpg

[Cheesegear]

I'll second pretty much everything.
I will say that Steve Parker knows a thing or two about military fiction. I think he owns and/or runs a gym, too. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Steve was ex-military, or at least hangs around people that are. I'll recommend all of his Deathwatch stories, and most of his other ones, too.

[Wraith]

I'll second pretty much everything.
I will say that Steve Parker knows a thing or two about military fiction. I think he owns and/or runs a gym, too. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Steve was ex-military, or at least hangs around people that are. I'll recommend all of his Deathwatch stories, and most of his other ones, too.

I went looking to check this, because I realised that apart from Dan Abnett and ADB I don't know anything about the 40k authors that I particularly enjoy and that felt like a disservice to them.

Purely as a matter of interest, there are TWO Steve Parkers who make a living as fiction authors. One of them spent 20 years in the London Metropolitan Police before retiring due to injury and turned his hobby of writing into a 'retirement' career, and the other one has a degree in Zoology, worked in the Natural History Museum and has written a bunch of stuff about human physiology, animal conservation and the protection of endangered species.

And because the universe has a sense of humour, it's the latter who writes the 40k books (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Steve-Parker/e/B001IGUUIC/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1406644627&sr=8-2-ent). Turns out the other guy writes a bunch of hard-boiled police procedural stuff with titles like The Dying Breath and The Child Behind The Wall (https://www.mrparkerspen.com/) which sounds like he should be writing about dystopian superhumans but... doesn't.

"Our" Steve Parker is also a bit of a recluse - he doesn't have a twitter account and his website hasn't been online in around a decade or so, he just wants to be left alone to write books and go to the gym a few times per week. He definitely sounds like One Of Us. The more you know. :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GulCX7Fx0

:smallbiggrin:

[Cheesegear]

A models company.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/egJ2EqsbESVVPYTI.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/IHcCCRVrBoSThubc.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BIdAc0IB8TJi9PDC.jpg

[Avaris]

A models company.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/egJ2EqsbESVVPYTI.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/IHcCCRVrBoSThubc.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BIdAc0IB8TJi9PDC.jpg

None of which are directly produced by GW, or really take any design effort away from them. The production of these has no impact on the models or the rules.

That being the case, while they’re mostly not a thing that appeals to me one bit (though I quite like the Squig), I don’t really see any problem with them existing for the benefit of people who do like them.

[LeSwordfish]

can't believe disney's spending all their time making star wars lego instead of more star wars films

[Wraith]

GW (not-so-)slowly turning into Krusty the Klown - they were funny once, but are fast becoming just a face that can be slapped onto any old tat and sold as 'merchandise'. Take THAT, reference to a show from 1998!

Christ, I'm old....

[Cheesegear]

GW (not-so-)slowly turning into Krusty the Klown - they were funny once, but are fast becoming just a face that can be slapped onto any old tat and sold as 'merchandise'. Take THAT, reference to a show from 1998!

Christ, I'm old....

This.
Wraith gets it.

It's about GW becoming an IP warehouse, and diversifying diluting the brand. It's like they looked at 1d4chan, and said 'If that's what people like, that's what we'll do, too.'
No, idiots. 1d4chan is the counter-culture.

When the mainstream tries to get in on the counter-culture it becomes, well...Forced memes. It's like when GW tried to get in on the joke with Primaris Lieutenants. No. It's too late. You actually did it. You can't pretend it's an ironic joke, now, because it's actually real.

Of course, ruining the counter-culture can potentially strengthen your brand. Potentially.

[Platinius]

GW (not-so-)slowly turning into Krusty the Klown - they were funny once, but are fast becoming just a face that can be slapped onto any old tat and sold as 'merchandise'. Take THAT, reference to a show from 1998!

Christ, I'm old....

But, but, I remember the joke like it was yesterday :eek:
When did I get so old?^^

[The Glyphstone]

Does anyone here actually have a W+ subscription to comment on the stuff that actually is there?

[Wraith]

LeSwordfish did, as they posted in the main 40k thread, and they cancelled it at the start of this month. To quote:


I cancelled my Warhammer+ Subscription - ultimately, it wasn't for me. The battle reports were fun but there are plenty of free ones out there, the painting guides were way above my level, and I'm not interested in the archives while they're lore-only.

By the sounds of it, it's mostly an archive of stuff that you can already find on Youtube or Lexicanum all put together. If you want that stuff, it's probably great... But I know where to find it for free, so... *shrug*

If you like, find out for yourself: 2 weeks of Warhammer+ free if you sign up before November 7th (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/29/celebrate-warhammer-day-with-two-weeks-of-free-access-to-warhammer/)


When did I get so old?^^

Yes.

[Avaris]

Does anyone here actually have a W+ subscription to comment on the stuff that actually is there?

I do, have primarily watched the animation series, which are fairly decent. The painting guides are pretty good, but I haven't watched the battle reports at all as I don't find those interesting.

My advice is to very much think about which elements actually have potential value for you. In my case, I already subscribed to the 40k app, and kind of wanted the miniature you get for a year, so figured I may as well subscribe. I feel the extra promotions and competitions, and the animation, are a nice bonus. But I wouldn't pay for it JUST for the animations, or any other content on its own: it's only because I feel interested in several components that it's worth it.

[Grim Portent]

Working on my Black Templars has gotten me wondering again about what normal chapters of space marines do with neophytes that are on the way to being primaris marines. Has it been stated anywhere what most chapters do with their neophytes these days? Do they still have to run around in carapace armour for a few decades like old fashioned scouts or like the BTs neophytes still do, or do they jump straight to power armour?

[LeSwordfish]

I asked a year or so back and there was no clear answer yet - there might be something in the newest Codex? But I suspect honestly GW haven't decided for sure yet.

[hamishspence]

Working on my Black Templars has gotten me wondering again about what normal chapters of space marines do with neophytes that are on the way to being primaris marines. Has it been stated anywhere what most chapters do with their neophytes these days? Do they still have to run around in carapace armour for a few decades like old fashioned scouts or like the BTs neophytes still do, or do they jump straight to power armour?

Gaius Pollandus's career in the second iteration of the Space Marine codex released for 8e, included time as a Scout, prior to his getting Power Armour for the first time and becoming a Reiver.

[Renegade Paladin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgxVQRTXtz0

That is all. :smallbiggrin:

[Silverraptor]

It looks like they changed the original sequel story. The Director of the first game said years back that the sequel he planned was more infiltration like and on the run from the Inquisition. Looks like instead Titus may be on a penitent crusade straight against the Tyranids. That's what I'm guessing based on the trailer.

[Artanis]

Man, the new Dynasty Warriors: Grimdark looks awesome :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

And on the complete opposite end of the tonal scale comes this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZZ9_aW0ERk

[Drasius]

And on the complete opposite end of the tonal scale comes this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZZ9_aW0ERk

Orkish Metal Slug, neat! I wonder why it took this long to happen?

[Rizhail]

It looks like they changed the original sequel story. The Director of the first game said years back that the sequel he planned was more infiltration like and on the run from the Inquisition. Looks like instead Titus may be on a penitent crusade straight against the Tyranids. That's what I'm guessing based on the trailer.

I think the sequel is taking place a lot later than the first one. Titus has got more service studs now, and he’s gone through the whole Primaris thingy (he and the others in the trailer are wearing the newest armor and carrying the automatic versions of the primaris bolters). They may just drop the whole Inquisition bit with Titus by skipping the time it would have happened.

[Grim Portent]

Can't remember if I've brought this up here before, but I'm planning to try and arrange a Dark Heresy game, probably a one shot, using the Curse of Solomon plot idea from the Disciples of the Dark Gods sourcebook as the basis. But I'm struggling to settle on a candidate for what the Curse actually is and figure I should bounce my current thoughts off people.


Basic premise of the Curse of Solomon is that the Hive World Solomon is dying the long slow death all Hive Worlds face in the end. It's natural resources are gone, it's infrastructure crumbling, it's people overpopulated. Solomon shudders and groans, riddled by strife and sickness. Among the vast industrial wastelands, a sea of pipes, maintenance corridors and crude dwellings, shrouded in darkness as most Underhives are, people vanish all the time. The locals attribute these dissapearances to a curse, something that exists among them, that preys on them in dark alleys, in the dying light of lamps and in the gloom amongst the pipes. Some worship it as a foul god, offering human sacrifices to ward off their own demise. The Inquisition largely dismisses this belief as superstitious attempts to rationalise the miserable life that plagues the lower classes of Solomon. Murder, accidents and so forth are hardly uncommon. Some among the Ordos believe there to be some truth to the local beliefs, though they propose different possible explanations for what might actually be at fault.


There's the obvious candidates for a monster that kills people in the dark, daemons, lictors, mandrakes and so on, but I want to go for something less linked to the wider galaxy.

Ideas I have atm;

A mass haunting event, affecting much of the planet. Those who have died in darkness, in fear, in loneliness and so on aren't gone. They remain as an embodiment of the misery of the dying Hive World. Manifesting in the dark, as thick foul smelling liquid that drips from pipes, oozes from grates or bleeds from walls, which coalesces drop by drop into the undead visages of prior victims. These manifestations gather around their prey in great numbers, dragging them into the deepest dark, squeezing them into pipes too small for the human body, passing them through vents and grates, or pulling them body and soul into the walls and floor with the sound of cracking bone and bursting soft tissues. The curse cannot be removed from the world, though it can be defended against to a limited extent, with light, hope and courage.

An assassin. An agent of death and murder, adherent of a censured Death Cult which has largely been neutralised. Augmented and equipped to pass unseen in the dark, travel through tight spaces, and driven by the belief that Solomon can only be saved from it's torment by the blood sacrifice of it's people to the Emperor. Bionic joints allow their limbs to contort, twist, compress and rotate, a bodyglove renders them into a sleek black shadow invisible to most scans, and implanted weaponry enables them to flense, pulp, break and shatter their victims into little more than slurry contained in a sack of their own flayed skin.

A xenos predator placed there by the Beast House, implanted with bionics that record it's killings, driven by instinct to prowl in the dark and prey on the weak. Recordings of it's hunts are sold by the Beast House, or shared with their blood hungry patrons. I imagine a creature akin to a feline serpent, like a leopard stretched out, hunting people and taking their corpses to the high places of the lower hives to feed on them in secret.

An architectural murder machine. In the early days of Solomon it was found to be the site of a Dark Age facility, one that could not be moved nor dissasembled. The facility was built to process human remains into resources, creating a more palatable and nutritious version of corpse starch, as well as other resources. The Imperium was delighted to have such an asset, but as is often the case it was eventually lost. Forgotten in the deep dark pits of the world. But the facility hungers, it needs to produce corpse starch, to feed the swollen populace of Solomon. Programming in the ancient cogitator banks that rule the facility dictate that it must feed, so it may nurse mankind on it's own recycled remains. But Solomon's population is vast, so very vast, and the Imperium no longer feeds corpses to the facility, it must hunt and so it finds the wretched, the lost, the dead and the dying. Mysterious techology abducts the living as readily as the dead, feeding them into the hoppers of a vast abattoir, a network of machines that break down and reconstitute organic feedstock into resources, which are then dispensed through a network of dispensers, doling out a ration of food, fuel and crude textiles to the populace. An unsustainable cycle, drawing out the agonising end of the world.

Monstrous hope. Superstition, paranoia and desperation have driven elements of the impoverished masses of Solomon offer sacrifices to the Beast, but those sacrifices do nothing. People die, they dissapear, they dwell in pain and misery and their desperate attempts to assauge their suffering did nothing. Then someone, or several someone's decided to try and make people think it worked. If your prospective sacrifice to the darkness is found having died of dehydration still shackled to a pipe, then your sacrifice meant nothing. If the person is gone, lost to the dark and the unnamed horrors in it, it at least gives the hope that it might have meant something. So all across Solomon there are those who have looked into the eyes of their frightened children, held their lovers as they weeped for a futile sacrifice, and come to the conclusion that if there is no beast, then someone must take up that role to ease the burdened minds of those who cannot face the horror that is Solomon without something to blame and ward off. These wretched individuals skulk into the dark with knives, cudgels and other tools of murder, killing those whose death's would be blamed on the curse, because making the Beast of Solomon real is all they can do to convince their loved ones that they can do anything to protect themselves against a cruel universe.

[The Glyphstone]

Are you limiting yourself to just one? Having there be a 'real' Beast of Solomon in one part of the hive, combined with the monstrous hope of copycats across other regions as stories spread, could make for a very nice double fake-out.

[Wraith]

They all work. The only one I'd suggest needs more detail would be the first one, Who Ya Gonna Call? based on the last line: "The curse cannot be removed from the world, though it can be defended against to a limited extent".

I read that and what I find myself thinking is, the party can't fix the problem, and that's a bit of a let-down for the end of a one-shot. I think that needs a stronger resolution, even if it's something like they can seal away the ghost this time, but it will eventually return.


Are you limiting yourself to just one? Having there be a 'real' Beast of Solomon in one part of the hive, combined with the monstrous hope of copycats across other regions as stories spread, could make for a very nice double fake-out.

I agree, that would be interesting - the party find a bunch of serial killers who are trying to 'feed' their supposed 'master', they deal with them, and on the way home they get jumped by an actual beast who was also feeding on the little cult and now needs a new food-source. Classic horror movie move. :smallsmile:

[Grim Portent]

My thought is that the plight of Solomon is meant to be a very bleak situation even by 40k standards, a lot of the potential issues can't be fixed by a filing clerk, a mechanic, an ex-soldier and a lunatic with magic powers that make their eyes bleed, or even by an actual Inquisitor and a squad of Grey Knights.

My idea with the ghost scenario is that the locals can't really be helped, though one or two might be saved from the darkness for a time by the actions of the PCs, the main beneficiary is ultimately the imperial officials who have to enter the areas afflicted by the curse who now have some knowledge of how to protect themselves. People suffer, but the wheels of the empire continue to turn and you might have allowed a few people some brief respite from their dread, and sometimes that's the best you can hope for in 40k.


The idea of having an actual Beast and a group of serial killers at the same time is a fun one, though I'm not sure which order of events would be better. The beast is killed but the deaths continue, leading to the discovery of the human element, or the human element is used to trick the players that there is no beast, until it strikes again and is ultimately confronted.

I do have a soft spot for the Beast House angle I have in Blood and Corruption, because the discovery that the beast was put there, and is broadcasting what it sees to someone leaves a thread to pull on in future one shots or a campaign. If I mixed that with the Hope and Despair angle, so that the presence of the Beast caused suffering on a level far exceeding it's actual actions by driving others to become killers it would make the Beast House in turn come across as truly vile.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the fake out is better with the initial answer of serial killer cultists blindly worshipping a non-existent Beast, then springing the actual Beast (which the cultists might not even have known was real) in the second act. And if it's all for the sport of decadent nobles from the Beast House, that makes it all the better.

[Grim Portent]

I think the fake out is better with the initial answer of serial killer cultists blindly worshipping a non-existent Beast, then springing the actual Beast (which the cultists might not even have known was real) in the second act. And if it's all for the sport of decadent nobles from the Beast House, that makes it all the better.

Now I am really getting ideas I like flowing, though I fear my thoughts are straying down a path of very dark subject matter.*

I'm getting an idea of an organised cult, split into a few branches across Solomon, which claims to divine who the beast wants to kill next, and abducts those people to be left in the dark as a sacrifice to appease the monster. In truth the cult is a fabrication, first started as a way to deal with the personal problems of it's founders, gain power over others, punish the wicked, or to bring hope of salvation to their desperate communities and the lie just kept growing. Sort of like the Salem Witch Trials and the corruption that happened there.

Different areas now have their own local branches of the cult, founded by splinter groups seeking to spread their influence further through Solomon for one reason or another while getting out from under the thumb of their parent cult. Now the inner circles of the cults murder most of the sacrifices in secret to lend weight to their shared lie, and have done so for quite some time. They've been doing it so long they don't believe there to be a real Beast, even though one has since been brought to Solomon.

The true Beast was and is man, it's cruelty, selfishness and fear. But Solomon is ripe for abuse by greater powers, and so many years ago the Beast House presence on the planet released a voracious predator, one cunning and cruel, to stalk the streets and kill for the sadistic pleasure and profit of it's masters. The beast is implanted with experimental bionics, everything it sees and hears being transmitted to criminal safehouses run by the House, the recordings then being sold as perverse entertainment, just another facet of the vile but often banal evil of the Beast House.

Since the release of the Beast the House has begun infiltrating the cults, wth the goal of manipulating who gets offered up as a sacrifice. On a superficial level it's low level imperial officials who present an obstacle to the criminal organisations own goals, but on a more fundamental level the victims are those who suit the morbid desires of the Houses target audience. What was initially a sacrifice pool consisting largely of 'acceptable targets' like addicts, criminals, mutants, abusive spouses and public nuisances has now become largely children and teenagers, young women and other vulnerable targets that the Beast House can monetise, selling recordings of their monstrous pet killing people to deviant fetishists across the Calixis sector.



*Though maybe not as dark as an idea I had for an embryo farm gimmick run by an excommunicated tech priest who was in league with the worst parts of the Inquisition, with women being turned into docile pseudo-servitors to be used as living incubators in which to grow clones and farmed embryos with a lower rate of mutation and failure than in a purely mechanical and soulless incubator, who are then provided to the Inquisition to use as agents, or fodder for experiments by groups like the Xanthites, Phaenonites or the Thorians. Inspired by the Daemonculaba of course.

[Brookshw]

Cursed City is reprinting. Possibly a shame they didn't announce it months age when I was looking for something Heroquest-ish to play with the kids, because Heroquest just reprinted - which I only know because I was looking for an alternative to CC when it didn't seem like it would reprint. Also, I'm completely unclear if it'll be a supported game with years of expansions, or a "one-and-done" like last print run.

Pretty sure I'll pass at this point....pretty sure.

[Avaris]

Cursed City is reprinting. Possibly a shame they didn't announce it months age when I was looking for something Heroquest-ish to play with the kids, because Heroquest just reprinted - which I only know because I was looking for an alternative to CC when it didn't seem like it would reprint. Also, I'm completely unclear if it'll be a supported game with years of expansions, or a "one-and-done" like last print run.

Pretty sure I'll pass at this point....pretty sure.

The announcement mentioned expansions would be coming. I suspect they’ll mostly be repackages if the various Vampires that were blatantly supposed to be CC expansions in the first place!

[Renegade Paladin]

In recognition of the Space Marine 2 announcement, I'm doing a playthrough of Space Marine on YouTube, premiering Wednesday (my channel's normal Warhammer upload day) and doing a chapter at a time. Everything from the fourth part on will be a blind first play; I picked the game up for free at one point and never finished it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmG7krtpxX4

[Renegade Paladin]

Sorry for the double post, but merry Kriegmas! :smallbiggrin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPkcsqtiwsc

[Artanis]

*happy gasmask noises*

[Brookshw]

Anyone know if an Ogor mini is on a good scale to use for D&D?

[hamishspence]

Might need to fudge the base size a little (characters in particular tend to have oversized bases) but an ogor could reasonably represent a Large creature - a plump Ogre or a Hill Giant - when compared to the modern plastic D&D models.

5e's Hill Giants (as opposed to 3e or 4e) are Huge though if I remember rightly - so it would have to be an Ogre only, in 5e.

[Brookshw]

Might need to fudge the base size a little (characters in particular tend to have oversized bases) but an ogor could reasonably represent a Large creature - a plump Ogre or a Hill Giant - when compared to the modern plastic D&D models.

5e's Hill Giants (as opposed to 3e or 4e) are Huge though if I remember rightly - so it would have to be an Ogre only, in 5e.

Scaled as an ogre would be perfect, thanks for confirming. I realize I was not clear enough in my inquiry, my apologies and thanks for the additional context.

[Squark]

It looks like unless an Ogor has something extra like a cooking pot or artillery piece, their largest base size is 50mm, which should just fit into the 2"×2" square large creatures occupy.

[Cheesegear]

Anyone know if an Ogor mini is on a good scale to use for D&D?

Using D&D scale, a Warhammer Ogor is equivalent to a D&D Half-Ogre, and I use them as such.

https://i.imgur.com/oi5Ox4b.jpg

Sorry for glare. Photo was literally taken on spur of the moment for this post.


Scaled as an ogre would be passable

Fixed that for you. Nobody will actually care.

[hamishspence]

D&D half-ogres are a PC race, and at the short end of Large, though - shaped more like "average human, but 8 ft tall".

The largest Sigmar warriors though, would make perfect half-ogre fighters.

[Cheesegear]

The largest Sigmar warriors though, would make perfect half-ogre fighters.

D&D is 25/28mm scale.
All the new stuff for Warhammer is coming out at 32mm scale - including Heresy-era Marines. Although it would look odd, a lot of 32mm-scale models for Warhammer, would be in scale to be on Large bases, as has been pointed out, on the 'smaller' end of the scale. However, in D&D, that is not a problem at all. Because Size is determined by height and/or width.

https://www.minisgallery.com/images/minis/dungeons-and-dragons-icons-of-the-realms/snowbound/verneranda.jpg

This animated suit of armour with a brain-in-a-jar for a head, may be thin, but he's still over 8 ft. tall, and that makes him Large, even if he does have a lot of negative space on his base.

And that's sort of my point.
You could use a Warhammer Ogor on a Large base, they are a good size for a Half-Ogre. If you want the Ogor model to represent a D&D Ogre, well, it doesn't. But it's still a model on a Large base and I'm sure your players will be able to figure out where the Ogre is on the map, even if you don't have the 'right' model.

[hamishspence]

You could use a Warhammer Ogor on a Large base, they are a good size for a Half-Ogre. If you want the Ogor model to represent a D&D Ogre, well, it doesn't. But it's still a model on a Large base and I'm sure your players will be able to figure out where the Ogre is on the map, even if you don't have the 'right' model.I was thinking more in terms of "An Ogor compared to an old Empire model from the time the first Ogre models came out".

If someone's using a random "Empire Soldier" as a low level fighter, the Ogor (or Ogre Kingdoms model) dwarfs it in a way that an appropriate Half-Ogre wouldn't.

Average ogres in D&D are 600-650 pounds and between 8 and 10 ft tall.

Average half-ogre males are less than 400 pounds, and around 7 ft 11.

Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms ogre models represent creatures of around 10 ft height rather than 8 ft (when compared to typical Empire foot soldiers assumed to be average human height) and vastly more than 600 pounds (since Warhammer Ogors have a much more chunky physique than D&D ogres).

That's why I think Ogre Kingdoms stuff is better as Full Ogres than Half-Ogres - because the models are so vast compared to human models that were coming out at the same time.

As long as they're not used alongside existing D&D Ogre models, it should work fine.

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms ogre models represent creatures of around 10 ft height

Then they are not to scale, and bad models.
Of course, this is GW, where an 8 ft. Space Marine was the same size as a 5'6" Guardsman.


As long as they're not used alongside existing D&D Ogre models, it should work fine.

Right.
Warhammer models are not to scale. D&D models, are.

EDIT: I got out my Firbolg model to check something...I was right.

https://i.imgur.com/NwXtYUi.jpg

Left to Right;
Elf; 5-6 ft. tall
Firbolg; 7-8 ft. tall.
"Half-Orge"; 7-8 ft. tall.
Ogre; 10-11 ft. tall...About double the size of the Elf.

[Brookshw]

Thanks for the feedback, and apologies for the delayed reply. Having grabbed a box, eh, close enough.

[Wraith]

On the subject of miniature scale, I thought I'd share this.

This year, plague allowing and such, I'm going to take up competitive Blood Bowl again. I haven't played face-to-face for about 4 years and my last tournament ended in 2004 or so (my Skaven team came fourth behind two Blackshirts in 1st and 2nd, and the guy who came 3rd won "Highest Scoring Game of the Season" with me by throwing snotlings all over the place - it was pretty great) so a lot of my minis are old and needed repainting.

I decided to start with my Chaos Dwarfs, for whom I don't have a Minotaur. I thought long and hard and decided, you know what'd make a great bull-themed centre-piece for my team? The Wildfire Taurus Endless Spell from AoS, that's what.

Standing them side-by-side, I may have to rethink my plan....

https://i.imgur.com/oUP59li.jpg

For reference, the mini on the left is Headsplitter, a Star Player Rat Ogre, and the one on the right is a metal Kroxigor from my Lizardman team. I don't think I'm allowed to use a mini that only fits on a 2x3 square space, not since first edition....

[Brookshw]

Did they ever explain how Lord Kroak "survived" the end times, what he was up to between WFB and AOS, and what he's doing now?

(I know we had a AOS thread, but, figure may as well just ask in the fluff thread since it's largely the same people, and the question doesn't really need a while thread of its own, as the AOS thread seems to have fallen off)

[Fyraltari]

Did they ever explain how Lord Kroak "survived" the end times, what he was up to between WFB and AOS, and what he's doing now?

(I know we had a AOS thread, but, figure may as well just ask in the fluff thread since it's largely the same people, and the question doesn't really need a while thread of its own, as the AOS thread seems to have fallen off)

Didn't the Lizardmen nope out of the End Times in their temples-that-are-actually-spaceships?

[Grim Portent]

Did they ever explain how Lord Kroak "survived" the end times, what he was up to between WFB and AOS, and what he's doing now?

(I know we had a AOS thread, but, figure may as well just ask in the fluff thread since it's largely the same people, and the question doesn't really need a while thread of its own, as the AOS thread seems to have fallen off)

IIRC the lizardmen's temple cities activated the ancient engines that brought the Old Ones to the world in the first place, letting them leave the planet and survive in the void long enough to reach the Realms of AoS, but the journey took so long that very few of the non-Slaan survived, and even some of them died. Kroak, being undead, was one of the Slann most capable of surviving the trip.

Since arriving in the realms my understanding is that the Lizardmen, now mostly extinct, became tenuous allies of Sigmar and Dracothion a dragon god native to the realms. When Chaos invaded the Slann were among those who tried to fight back, but such a tide is near impossible to truly stop. Now they are still fighting, but the Slann as always are somewhat inscrutable and often hostile to the other races, viewing them as obstacles to the war against Chaos as often as allies in it.

Kroak himself has probably spent a lot of his time asleep, as Slann do and he especially does, before waking up in response to the growing power of Chaos, the appearance of the Stormcast, the failure of Nagash's attempt to control everything, the return of the native god Kragnos, or other similar events. I don't know which event in particular is meant to have awoken him at the time of his model being released since I don't keep an eye on the Seraphon.

[LeSwordfish]

The Slann are becoming much more friendly recently, with Kroak and an army of Seraphon showing up to help out in the Broken Realms books. There's also now "coalesced" Seraphon - real flesh-and-blood ones, not star dreams - that live in the realms, including skinks living in human cities etc.

[Brookshw]

Didn't the Lizardmen nope out of the End Times in their temples-that-are-actually-spaceships?

Some, we didn't get a resolution for a few of their characters, and some definitely died. For Kroak, I'm confused by his reappearance as I believe he stayed behind to lessen the impact of the moon's fall, and to bubble certain parts of Lustria (that he wasn't in), apparently dying again in the process. So I'm a bit confused by the reappearance and if there was something more to it

[Destro_Yersul]

Apart from the End Times being silly and GW quietly ignoring lots of it now that it's over with?

[Grim Portent]

Some, we didn't get a resolution for a few of their characters, and some definitely died. For Kroak, I'm confused by his reappearance as I believe he stayed behind to lessen the impact of the moon's fall, and to bubble certain parts of Lustria (that he wasn't in), apparently dying again in the process. So I'm a bit confused by the reappearance and if there was something more to it

I think he basically just refused to stay dead. His dedication to the destruction of Chaos is so absolute that he was able to defy death even in the face of the world's annhiliation, similar to how several other characters managed to survive by essentially being so powerful that they could escape the clutches of the dark gods.

EDIT: It's odd that Sigmar was able to escape the gods come to think of it. You'd think of all the souls in the world that was his would be the one they most desired to consume, though I guess with all the souls they were eating at the time he may have been considered less important than squabbling over the rest of the spoils.

[Dragonus45]

I think he basically just refused to stay dead. His dedication to the destruction of Chaos is so absolute that he was able to defy death even in the face of the world's annhiliation, similar to how several other characters managed to survive by essentially being so powerful that they could escape the clutches of the dark gods.

EDIT: It's odd that Sigmar was able to escape the gods come to think of it. You'd think of all the souls in the world that was his would be the one they most desired to consume, though I guess with all the souls they were eating at the time he may have been considered less important than squabbling over the rest of the spoils.

Almost like the End Times transitioning into Age of Sigmar was really poorly thought out or something I guess.

[LeSwordfish]

I think he basically just refused to stay dead. His dedication to the destruction of Chaos is so absolute that he was able to defy death even in the face of the world's annhiliation, similar to how several other characters managed to survive by essentially being so powerful that they could escape the clutches of the dark gods.

Wasn't Kroak already dead anyway?

[Grim Portent]

Almost like the End Times transitioning into Age of Sigmar was really poorly thought out or something I guess.

Oh certainly, it's hard to tell how much they actually expected of it when they first launched it so they did very much half ass it.


Wasn't Kroak already dead anyway?

Undead. Sort of. My understanding is that in WHF his mummy had his soul clinging to it as a result of both stubborness and sheer magical power, which I think had the effect of rendering his corpse nearly impervious to harm on the rare occasions he fought things, but with the side effect of making him even harder to wake than a normal Slann.

Without getting a Seraphon tome to check his AoS fluff in detail, assuming his backstory isn't left in a vague 'in the mists of time...' kind of state, I can only presume that his refusal to die outlasted the literal apocalypse and allowed him to survive long enough to either reach the realms or be found by the other Slann.

Or maybe he's now some kind of magical hallucination manifested by the Slann as a result of them licking each other which is powerful enough to be indistinguishable from the original dried up frog man. /shrug

[lord_khaine]

Wasn't Kroak already dead anyway?

He was dead. And had been so for an extremely long time.
But he was sufficiently powerful to not care about it to much.
Its incorrect to call him undead though.

[thethird]

So... you know how the warp is weird and mangly. I understand that Slaanesh existed before he was given birth and stuff. But do other daemons also exist before you know they exist? What about things like are like daemon gods but not quite, like the human interpretation of the greater good? What about daemon princes? What about things that are like daemon princes but not quite, like Saint Celestine?

[Fyraltari]

So... you know how the warp is weird and mangly. I understand that Slaanesh existed before he was given birth and stuff. But do other daemons also exist before you know they exist? What about things like are like daemon gods but not quite, like the human interpretation of the greater good? What about daemon princes? What about things that are like daemon princes but not quite, like Saint Celestine?

Probably, mortals going through the Warp may exit it before their birth, I fail to see why the same couldn't apply to the warp's natives, especially if they wish it.

[tyckspoon]

So... you know how the warp is weird and mangly. I understand that Slaanesh existed before he was given birth and stuff. But do other daemons also exist before you know they exist? What about things like are like daemon gods but not quite, like the human interpretation of the greater good? What about daemon princes? What about things that are like daemon princes but not quite, like Saint Celestine?

For native warp beings, I would expect them to be similarly a-temporal in relation to 'reality', although they generally also can't directly act on the material world and would need Psykers/sorcerors/true believers/some other way of being channeled into the specific time and place where they are desired to act. It may also require a specific level of power/breadth of .. umm.. existence? For an entity to be aware of the possibility that they existed before they existed and try to act on things that should be paradoxical.
Ascended creatures that were originally mortal should have a definite real-world timeline, although if they become powerful and knowledgeable enough in navigating the Warp they may be able to use it to act on periods outside of their own, especially if somebody in those times somehow gains knowledge of them and specifically tries to invoke them.