Random MetaBanter – Random Banter no. 236 (now with Flowers!)

[BisectedBrioche]

Welp, I finally streamed the infamous Metroid: Other M last night.

Luckily with friends, so I didn't end up throwing me Wii out of the window (which would have been futile, since I live on the ground floor).

Not only is the story awful, but the gameplay (often cited as a redeeming factor) is outright painful on the d-pad. -.-

[2D8HP]

Is it healthy for the kids though?

I'm serious, think very carefully on that. Depending on your exact situation a full split from your wife (even if not in legal terms) might be the better option.


Seconded.

Kids are a lot more perceptive than people give them credit for. There's a good chance they recognize something isn't right, even if they don't know what. You may want to give serious consideration to just telling the kids that mom and dad love each other but have a hard time living together, or whatever your preferred simplification is. If they know (or think they know) what's going on, they'll be better equipped to handle it as they grow up.


Honestly, having read some of your previous posts in the personal woes and advice thread and reading this I get the sense your wife might be using you and taking advantage of your emotional vulnerability. And as Anonymouswizard and Keltest pointed out, this may not be good for the kids at all. Kids aren't idiots, they'll know something's up, especially as they get older. Chances are a clear separation (which can be an amicable one) is better than staying together pretending everything's fine when it's so very clearly not.

But it's your marriage and family, so that's for you to decide.
[…]


Thanks for all the kind advice.

[Rater202]

Welp, I finally streamed the infamous Metroid: Other M last night.

Luckily with friends, so I didn't end up throwing me Wii out of the window (which would have been futile, since I live on the ground floor).

Not only is the story awful, but the gameplay (often cited as a redeeming factor) is outright painful on the d-pad. -.-Something I learned a little while back: A good chunk of the problems with Other M are the result of bad localiation.

Apparently in the original Japanese Adam comes across as less of an *******, and Samus is more annoyed about being called "Lady" and more sarcastic in following his orders.

It still leaves a discrepancy in how Adam is depicted in Other M versus how Adam is depicted in Fusion and Dread, but... Not as big of one.

[LaZodiac]

Something I learned a little while back: A good chunk of the problems with Other M are the result of bad localiation.

Apparently in the original Japanese Adam comes across as less of an *******, and Samus is more annoyed about being called "Lady" and more sarcastic in following his orders.

It still leaves a discrepancy in how Adam is depicted in Other M versus how Adam is depicted in Fusion and Dread, but... Not as big of one.

I mean Adam isn't... depicted, in Dread, to be frank. And I feel like "Adam as kind of hard but still lovable father figure" is a valid take on their relationship even from Fusion. I'm of two minds of this where I don't mind the obviously intended romantic read, but also I have no care for it at all... and by that same measure, I'm totally okay with the "he's just a dad figure" read, but also don't really care for it either.

I think ultimate Adam should feel more like a brother, or uncle, type figure.

Anyway yeah Other M's major issue was that it wasn't localized properly. You could easily make the plot a lot better by just... writing it properly, and not assuming people know about the Metroid comic. I'll always go to bat for the "Other M didn't have to suck" even if it slowly kills what little interest people have in me, bit by bit :smalltongue:

(also shame your D-Pad hurts you Brioche. It really is a fine game mechanically, but if the controller is hurting you that's just bad luck)

[Rater202]

Anyway yeah Other M's major issue was that it wasn't localized properly. You could easily make the plot a lot better by just... writing it properly, and not assuming people know about the Metroid comic. I'll always go to bat for the "Other M didn't have to suck" even if it slowly kills what little interest people have in me, bit by bit :smalltongue:

Yeah. The biggest problem is honestly that it draws on an absurd manga that was never officially released outside of Japan.

Her breakdown with seeing Ridley out of nowhere all of a sudden makes perfect sense in the context of the canonical manga that establishes that Ridley is a major PTSD trigger for her after seeing him rampage and kill her family and everyone else she knew when she was like three god damn years old and she has to prepare herself to deal with it when she goes on missions involving Space Pirates...

...and you know, the fact that Samus is like, twenty at the oldest at this point. I don't think it's common knowledge that she's a child soldier.

But none of that is exactly common knowledge, especially outside of Japan, so her freak out after randomly running into the monster that haunts her nightmares like, a week after she finally killed him dead, destroyed his body, and then the planet blew the **** up before anyone could retrieve his pieces comes way the hell out of nowhere.

...You know, the Kraid boss fight in Dread is rather poignant in context.

Samus's life was ruined as a child by the Space Pirates twice over, once by Ridley and once by Mother Brain.

She's been fighting the Space Pirates her whole life...

And then... Dread happens.

By this point in time, Mother Brain is destroyed. Ridley is deader than dead—the only trace of him anywhere in the world is Samus herself after she ate an X-Parasite clone of him to gain its power. The rest of th eSpace Pirates are all dead, in prison, or scattered to the galaxy.

All that's left is Kraid... And the years have no been kind to him. All that remains f the Space Pirates is this retched thing, while Samus is stronger than ever...

And she doesn't so much as acknowledge him as a threat.

[BisectedBrioche]

I mean Adam isn't... depicted, in Dread, to be frank. And I feel like "Adam as kind of hard but still lovable father figure" is a valid take on their relationship even from Fusion. I'm of two minds of this where I don't mind the obviously intended romantic read, but also I have no care for it at all... and by that same measure, I'm totally okay with the "he's just a dad figure" read, but also don't really care for it either.

I think ultimate Adam should feel more like a brother, or uncle, type figure.

Anyway yeah Other M's major issue was that it wasn't localized properly. You could easily make the plot a lot better by just... writing it properly, and not assuming people know about the Metroid comic. I'll always go to bat for the "Other M didn't have to suck" even if it slowly kills what little interest people have in me, bit by bit :smalltongue:

(also shame your D-Pad hurts you Brioche. It really is a fine game mechanically, but if the controller is hurting you that's just bad luck)


Yeah. The biggest problem is honestly that it draws on an absurd manga that was never officially released outside of Japan.

Her breakdown with seeing Ridley out of nowhere all of a sudden makes perfect sense in the context of the canonical manga that establishes that Ridley is a major PTSD trigger for her after seeing him rampage and kill her family and everyone else she knew when she was like three god damn years old and she has to prepare herself to deal with it when she goes on missions involving Space Pirates...

...and you know, the fact that Samus is like, twenty at the oldest at this point. I don't think it's common knowledge that she's a child soldier.

But none of that is exactly common knowledge, especially outside of Japan, so her freak out after randomly running into the monster that haunts her nightmares like, a week after she finally killed him dead, destroyed his body, and then the planet blew the **** up before anyone could retrieve his pieces comes way the hell out of nowhere.

...You know, the Kraid boss fight in Dread is rather poignant in context.

Samus's life was ruined as a child by the Space Pirates twice over, once by Ridley and once by Mother Brain.

She's been fighting the Space Pirates her whole life...

And then... Dread happens.

By this point in time, Mother Brain is destroyed. Ridley is deader than dead—the only trace of him anywhere in the world is Samus herself after she ate an X-Parasite clone of him to gain its power. The rest of th eSpace Pirates are all dead, in prison, or scattered to the galaxy.

All that's left is Kraid... And the years have no been kind to him. All that remains f the Space Pirates is this retched thing, while Samus is stronger than ever...

And she doesn't so much as acknowledge him as a threat.

Welp, it's worth remembering that the English dub was developed in tandem with the Japanese and both versions were directed by Yoshio Sakamoto (who, to be fair, has managed to shake off the damage Other M did to his reputation thanks to the later Metroid titles). So a lot of those issues still stem from a common source (reportedly, he was insistent on the rather detached delivery of Samus's VA). I haven't seen much about what the Japanese dub is like (aside from a nebulous "better than the English"), but it's fair to say that the English version is still a product that shipped as intended and is best criticised as such.

Some of the translation issues were caused by Fusion (thanks to limitations of Roman vs. Kanji characters, the English version of Fusion gave the impression the entire GF was corrupt instead of a single faction in it, which passed on to the plot of Other M and makes the resolution to the whole conspiracy make no sense). Which wasn't cleared up until Dread.

My main issue with the d-pad is how frustratingly imprecise it feels in a 3D game after all these years of being spoiled by analogue sticks. Although having to switch the position of the Wiimote doesn't help.

[Rater202]

W(reportedly, he was insistent on the rather detached delivery of Samus's VA).

As if she's severely emotionally stunted by repeated childhood trauma, including being orphaned twice over, followed by several years as a child soldier both working for the government and as an elite independent contractor?

Or maybe because she was raised of her emotions by an enlightened society of technologically, mystically, and spiritually advanced bird people and therefore good at sorting and compartmentalizing her emotions as long as they aren't too sudden or extreme?

Becuase both are true and both would account for her being detached and emotionally distant, which would be evident when she's speaking.

The Metroid Manga actually flat-out states that Samus doesn't consider herself a person, but a warrior. Her sense of duty and extreme professionalism while on the job is a coping mechanism for dealing with her trauma... Which is especially sad, since the manga also flat out has a scene of several Chozo comforting her when she's at her lowest and outright telling her that she more than has the right to feel bad after everything she's been threw

I'm pretty sure that you can count the number of times that Samus's expression has matched her emotions on one hand and have fingers left over.

Like... the manga, which has one scene of her having a panic attack when Ridley was taunting her about having killed her birth parents during the time he was stuck on the space station she originally lived on after that attack...

Other M when she encounters what appears to be Ridley without any context or time to prepare herself.

And Dread, during her two voiced lines.When she encounters Quiet Robe and just seems... Happy that she's encountered a living Chozo who isn't insane, evil, or both.

And at the very end where she's just fed up with Raven Beak's narcissistic insanity, murderous actions against his own people, the Totha Chozo who raised Samus, his insistence that he is her father becuase his genes were part of her bio-augmentations which... honestly just kind of ****s all over both Samus's birth parents and her two bird dads, his manipulating her the entire game, and his expressed desire to dissect her and use her to make bioweapons with which to conquer the galaxy and in general just acting like a fusion of everyone that Samus hates.

[LaZodiac]

The issue is that he was going for "detached, wistful, philosopher" and we just kinda got wooden and flat, with dialogue that only really works in Japanese. Proper localization would have reworded things and would have provided an actual better bit of voice direction, while still capturing the intent.

[Mystic Muse]

https://www.howtogeek.com/772439/verizons-custom-experience-is-data-collection-in-disguise/

If you have Verizon as your carrier, log into the website or "My Verizon" app, go to privacy settings, and turn 'custom experience' off.

It essentially watches everything you do on your phone and is opt-OUT.

Just thought people should know.

[Anonymouswizard]

You know, despite being into SF, Meteoid has never really captured me. That's even despite me liking the idea of aliens enhancing humans (generally via 'you now have amazing psychic powers'), even the gameplay was fine but it didn't grab me.

[Rater202]

Also, I feel it's important to note: When Samus was taken in by the Chozo she was raised by two dudes.

Just too bird bros who decide to raise a kid together.

That really has no bearing on the main thrust of the conversation, I just think it's important to know that she was raised by two dads.

[Peelee]

https://www.howtogeek.com/772439/verizons-custom-experience-is-data-collection-in-disguise/

If you have Verizon as your carrier, log into the website or "My Verizon" app, go to privacy settings, and turn 'custom experience' off.

It essentially watches everything you do on your phone and is opt-OUT.

Just thought people should know.
I heard about this yesterday. I'm sad, but not surprised.

You know, despite being into SF, Meteoid has never really captured me. That's even despite me liking the idea of aliens enhancing humans (generally via 'you now have amazing psychic powers'), even the gameplay was fine but it didn't grab me.
Super Metroid was amazing. I just repaired it a couple weeks ago. Got an hour forty, first time I ever tried to get under 3 hours. Pretty happy with myself.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also, I feel it's important to note: When Samus was taken in by the Chozo she was raised by two dudes.

Just too bird bros who decide to raise a kid together.

That really has no bearing on the main thrust of the conversation, I just think it's important to know that she was raised by two dads.

The fact that this is noteworthy is itself somewhat problematic. Then again so is the idea that characters who aren't cis-het, and probably moreso.

But yeah, nice to know it's a thing.

[LaZodiac]

The fact that this is noteworthy is itself somewhat problematic. Then again so is the idea that characters who aren't cis-het, and probably moreso.

But yeah, nice to know it's a thing.

Until it becomes as casual as breathing, I think it's always a little noteworthy to be like "hey, representation". Within a given capacity of course, bad representation is still representation but it's still also bad.

[Anonymouswizard]

Until it becomes as casual as breathing, I think it's always a little noteworthy to be like "hey, representation". Within a given capacity of course, bad representation is still representation but it's still also bad.

Representation is good.

Incidental representation being worth pointing out? Not so good. Characters having two dads or two mums shouldn't be anything more than just there

[Rater202]

There is one thing about Metroid that I don't know the answer to and it's not really gone into.Why did Ravenbeak contribute his genetic material to Samus's enhancements in the first place.

It makes sense why Samu's adopted parents would use Ravenbeak's DNA once they had it: The primary purpose of her being spliced with Chozo DNA and the other enhancements she underwent was so that she could not only survive, but thrive, on Zebes: According to tot he Manga, an unmodified human could only survive in certain parts of the planet due to extreme conditions on literally the entire rest of the planet, while Metroid Prime states that the planet is totally inhospitable to most forms of life. Mawkin Chozo are implied to be stronger and tougher than the more intellectual Thotha Chozo, which are implied to be the majority of the Chozo we've seen or heard of prior to Dread, and Raven Beak himself seems to be either some kind of superpowered mutant or a super-soldier. It makes sense that if you're trying to make a child strong enough to thrive in harsh conditions that you'd go for the best physicality you can get.

But Ravenbeak... an act of kindness seems out of character? And while it's possible that he was already planning to sue her as a weapon, there's no way in hell that his plan of "clone the Ultimate Metroid to create an unstoppable army" could have been planned that far back. No way he could have predicted that Sasmus would be infected by the X or spliced with Metroid DNA.

So... did he want a child? He's rather narcissistic and puts emphasis on how having his DNA in her made him Samus's father. The Chozo were as a species rendered more or less completly sterile... I could see Ravenbeak deciding that he needed to pass on his genes in some way... and the genetically engineered child being the next best thing.

[tomandtish]

It was 27°C the other day. Then snow last night at 0°.

I am not liking this sudden cold one bit.

Going with weather weirdness, on Sat 1/1/22 in Texas there was a 101 degree (F) temperature difference between the panhandle (-6) and the valley (95).

[Fyraltari]

Going with weather weirdness, on Sat 1/1/22 in Texas there was a 101 degree (F) temperature difference between the panhandle (-6) and the valley (95).

Oh my god that's a...

...56 degree Celsius difference!

How far apart are those?

[factotum]

How far apart are those?

Could be anything up to 800 miles, Texas is a big place! Larger than France in terms of area, in fact.

[Rater202]

Jut got back from getting my booster.

It was fricking cold.

How cold was it? My glasses fogged up and by the time we got to the car the fog had frozen into frost.

[Fyraltari]

Could be anything up to 800 miles, Texas is a big place! Larger than France in terms of area, in fact.

I am aware, that is why I asked.

[Amidus Drexel]

Going with weather weirdness, on Sat 1/1/22 in Texas there was a 101 degree (F) temperature difference between the panhandle (-6) and the valley (95).

Oh my god that's a...

...56 degree Celsius difference!

How far apart are those?

Could be anything up to 800 miles, Texas is a big place! Larger than France in terms of area, in fact.

The Texas panhandle is the northernmost part of the state. Not sure what's meant by "the valley" (not a native Texan here :smalltongue:), but I'd assume it corresponds to one of the major rivers, which are mostly in the southern part of the state. If I had to guess, it'd be a couple hundred miles apart at least.

[HalfTangible]

The Texas panhandle is the northernmost part of the state. Not sure what's meant by "the valley" (not a native Texan here :smalltongue:), but I'd assume it corresponds to one of the major rivers, which are mostly in the southern part of the state. If I had to guess, it'd be a couple hundred miles apart at least.

The valley refers to the southernmost tip of Texas, right on the Rio Grande.

[LaZodiac]

Representation is good.

Incidental representation being worth pointing out? Not so good. Characters having two dads or two mums shouldn't be anything more than just there

Fair, but I think it's worth mentioning because it's actually just unclear that both of the birds are male because they're bird people, so it's pointing it out for people who didn't notice, not pointing it out just for the incidental nature of it.


There is one thing about Metroid that I don't know the answer to and it's not really gone into.Why did Ravenbeak contribute his genetic material to Samus's enhancements in the first place.

It makes sense why Samu's adopted parents would use Ravenbeak's DNA once they had it: The primary purpose of her being spliced with Chozo DNA and the other enhancements she underwent was so that she could not only survive, but thrive, on Zebes: According to tot he Manga, an unmodified human could only survive in certain parts of the planet due to extreme conditions on literally the entire rest of the planet, while Metroid Prime states that the planet is totally inhospitable to most forms of life. Mawkin Chozo are implied to be stronger and tougher than the more intellectual Thotha Chozo, which are implied to be the majority of the Chozo we've seen or heard of prior to Dread, and Raven Beak himself seems to be either some kind of superpowered mutant or a super-soldier. It makes sense that if you're trying to make a child strong enough to thrive in harsh conditions that you'd go for the best physicality you can get.

But Ravenbeak... an act of kindness seems out of character? And while it's possible that he was already planning to sue her as a weapon, there's no way in hell that his plan of "clone the Ultimate Metroid to create an unstoppable army" could have been planned that far back. No way he could have predicted that Sasmus would be infected by the X or spliced with Metroid DNA.

So... did he want a child? He's rather narcissistic and puts emphasis on how having his DNA in her made him Samus's father. The Chozo were as a species rendered more or less completly sterile... I could see Ravenbeak deciding that he needed to pass on his genes in some way... and the genetically engineered child being the next best thing.

To see what would happen, I think. I don't think the "legacy" idea fits because he then just kinda ****ed off for years and let two pacifists raise her instead. It feels a little... messy, an explanation, is all.

Meanwhile, the idea that he heard these two losers picked up a human child and where gonna be putting bird DNA in her made him go "hah! Let's do some Science!" and so he volunteered to also slam dunk some of him into her as well just to see what horrific thing happens as a result. Maybe she'll get bird wings out the side of her heads and chicken legs? Or maybe she'll do that demi-god thing where the mixing of our perfect and godly blood combined with her ****ty human blood will make something far more impressive than both. It'll be neat to find out!

[Rater202]

Meanwhile, the idea that he heard these two losers picked up a human child and where gonna be putting bird DNA in her made him go "hah! Let's do some Science!" and so he volunteered to also slam dunk some of him into her as well just to see what horrific thing happens as a result. Maybe she'll get bird wings out the side of her heads and chicken legs? Or maybe she'll do that demi-god thing where the mixing of our perfect and godly blood combined with her ****ty human blood will make something far more impressive than both. It'll be neat to find out!

I mean, the Chozo had biotech that both bordered on magic and literally was magic.

Like, the only Chozo creation we know of going wonky was Mother Brain, abnd that's because she was sapient and possessing of her own free will. Everything else worked exactly as intended...

...Admittedly the Metroids are a bit dangerous if you use them for literally anything but their intended purpose, but...

So there was virtually no chance of the procedure not working as intended.

so if it was to see what would happen, it would have to be a long game: See how well she took to it and the like, and the fact that he ****ed off to go be a monstrous Tyrant and only showed interest in her once he got word that she'd been infused with Metroid DNA suggests that wasn't his motive either.

So like, did Grey Voice approach Ravenbeak and say "so I'm trying to gene mod my adopted daughter so that she can live on my planet without extreme accommodations. I want her to be both Mawkin and Thotha, and you're the fittest Mawkin so..."

...Actually, that's probably it. Man's a raging narcissist. Probably just flattered him into giving some blood.

Though... Now that I think of it... Samus was trained as a warrior and given the power suit because that's what she wanted. And there's a very prominent screenshot of a silhouette of Samus next to a silhouette of RAvenbeek with their right arms highlighted. The arms that interface into the canons on their respective Power suits.

and Ravenbeak is literally the only person other than Samus who is ever shown using a Chozo power suit with an arm cannon... There's probably a connection...

[LaZodiac]

I mean, the Chozo had biotech that both bordered on magic and literally was magic.

Like, the only Chozo creation we know of going wonky was Mother Brain, abnd that's because she was sapient and possessing of her own free will. Everything else worked exactly as intended...

...Admittedly the Metroids are a bit dangerous if you use them for literally anything but their intended purpose, but...

So there was virtually no chance of the procedure not working as intended.

so if it was to see what would happen, it would have to be a long game: See how well she took to it and the like, and the fact that he ****ed off to go be a monstrous Tyrant and only showed interest in her once he got word that she'd been infused with Metroid DNA suggests that wasn't his motive either.

So like, did Grey Voice approach Ravenbeak and say "so I'm trying to gene mod my adopted daughter so that she can live on my planet without extreme accommodations. I want her to be both Mawkin and Thotha, and you're the fittest Mawkin so..."

...Actually, that's probably it. Man's a raging narcissist. Probably just flattered him into giving some blood.

Though... Now that I think of it... Samus was trained as a warrior and given the power suit because that's what she wanted. And there's a very prominent screenshot of a silhouette of Samus next to a silhouette of RAvenbeek with their right arms highlighted. The arms that interface into the canons on their respective Power suits.

and Ravenbeak is literally the only person other than Samus who is ever shown using a Chozo power suit with an arm cannon... There's probably a connection...

The Metroids mutated and evolved into horrifying monstrosities just from being on the wrong planet. Just because the prochedure goes Correct doesn't mean Things Won't Happen.

It's why his plan even is the way it is, in Dread. Either Samus gets got and he has metroid dna, or she wakes up her powers and he gets her dna. You don't just assume something is a sure shot.

Given a lot of Chozo tech is, as you mentioned, magic, and Dread is like "this specific group of Chozo had metroid control abilities" it is likely that the more advanced power suit stuff was Mawkin only. Maybe Raven Beak was just seeing if human COULD be made part bird at all in a safe way so that he could make shock troopers?

Anyway-

I hope everyone is doing well. I finally finally got my birth certificate back from the government so I can start updating all my IDs and stuff. I am now, soon, officially going to be me on paper legally.

[Anonymouswizard]

The more I hear about Metroid the more it seems like it's Alien, but Ripley got adopted by the Arisians and given a suit of Starship Trooper armour.


Plus that's amazing Zodi! I've heard getting all this stuff official can be a real pain.

[Rater202]

The Metroids mutated and evolved into horrifying monstrosities just from being on the wrong planet. Just because the prochedure goes Correct doesn't mean Things Won't Happen.The Metroids mutate and evolve into horrifying monstrosities from being on the right planet.

And their mutations on other planets are described as being adaption, their life cycles altering according to their for surviving in a new environment.

Unless there's something I missed that says that this is an accident, I'm going to assume that that's a feature, not a bug.

Considering that both the Power Suit and Samus herself are capable of absorbing respectively any bit of energy or tech it happens to need and any biological matter that's injected into her, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that just maybe some kind of adaption is a feature of Chozo engineering.

I hope everyone is doing well. I finally finally got my birth certificate back from the government so I can start updating all my IDs and stuff. I am now, soon, officially going to be me on paper legally.

Yay!
The more I hear about Metroid the more it seems like it's Alien, but Ripley got adopted by the Arisians and given a suit of Starship Trooper armour.Is Starship Trooper aRmor mostly organic and implicitly engineered from space kolas and space ostritches?

Otherwise yes, exactly that.

Samus is explicitly based on Ripley to a degree and the metroids are clearly inspired by the Xenomorphs, save their parasitism is changed from oviposition to draining "life energy" from hosts.

Though by Fusion, there's some influence from The Thing—amorphs slime creatures that infect, take over, consume, and imitate life forms while absorbing their knowledge and memories and, if necessary, being able to merge together itno a more powerful version or mutate their stolen form in interesting ways—and the main prime trilogy involves some outright Lovecraftian influences.

Also, just gonna say it: Samus is goals: By the current point in the timeline she's basically a perfect life form.

[Lord Raziere]

Samus is explicitly based on Ripley to a degree and the metroids are clearly inspired by the Xenomorphs, save their parasitism is changed from oviposition to draining "life energy" from hosts.

Though by Fusion, there's some influence from The Thing—amorphs slime creatures that infect, take over, consume, and imitate life forms while absorbing their knowledge and memories and, if necessary, being able to merge together itno a more powerful version or mutate their stolen form in interesting ways—and the main prime trilogy involves some outright Lovecraftian influences.

Also, just gonna say it: Samus is goals: By the current point in the timeline she's basically a perfect life form.

:smalleek:

......Now I'm just wondering if Samus is truly Samus, or just a Metroid that believes herself to be Samus.....

[Anonymouswizard]

Eh, at that level the hardtech/biotech distinction gets blurry. Same way that a TARDIS does to be honest.

Also, I'd give up most of Samus's stuff in exchange for psychic powers. Especially Trinity-style Vitakinesis, being able to heal people physically and mentally is cool, and it's got some nice offensive tricks. The fact that it might let you subconsciously heal your own aging is just icing on the cake. Throw in basic Empathy and TK and it's a pretty sweet deal (especially if you can also swing voluntary telepathy).

[Rater202]

:smalleek:

......Now I'm just wondering if Samus is truly Samus, or just a Metroid that believes herself to be Samus.....

No no no, those are the X.

The things the metroids were bio-engineered to hunt and kill.

Samus was infected by an X, but for some reason, it wasn't able to consume her. She almost died, but the Federation was able to save her by injecting her with Metroid cells cloned from the DNA of the last Metroid queen.

This caused her body to absorb both Metroid DNA and the X she was infected with, giving her the ability to eat X to gain their powers.

[Lord Raziere]

No no no, those are the X.

The things the metroids were bio-engineered to hunt and kill.

Samus was infected by an X, but for some reason, it wasn't able to consume her. She almost died, but the Federation was able to save her by injecting her with Metroid cells cloned from the DNA of the last Metroid queen.

This caused her body to absorb both Metroid DNA and the X she was infected with, giving her the ability to eat X to gain their powers.

.....yeah my headcanon now is that Samus is dead, whatever your playing after that is either something that believes itself to be her, or a benevolent super-life form that looked at her memories and decided to keep doing what she does.

[Rater202]

.....yeah my headcanon now is that Samus is dead, whatever your playing after that is either something that believes itself to be her, or a benevolent super-life form that looked at her memories and decided to keep doing what she does.

There's a lot of moments in Fusion and Dread that lose all impact if it isn't literally Samus.

[Lord Raziere]

There's a lot of moments in Fusion and Dread that lose all impact if it isn't literally Samus.

....okay fair.

I have little knowledge of the franchise so....you'd know better than me.

[Anonymouswizard]

If we presume it has Samus's memories, and it believes itself to be Samus, does it really matter if it's a replacement?

[Lord Raziere]

If we presume it has Samus's memories, and it believes itself to be Samus, does it really matter if it's a replacement?

Yes, because the real one would be dead, thus it would not be Samus, but Samus II.

[Rater202]

If we presume it has Samus's memories, and it believes itself to be Samus, does it really matter if it's a replacement?

Yes.

If it's just a copy, then even if it has her memories it's not Samus. Samus is dead.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes, because the real one would be dead, thus it would not be Samus, but Samus II.

From Samus Prime's point of view, yes. From our point of view the copy is mentally identical to SP.

Assuming it is, but then again even if Samus II thinks differently to Samus Prime, the alterations are so severe that she likely wouldn't think in the exact same way she did before. Which is why I kind of think it's a moot point from a wider universe PoV.

[Rater202]

From Samus Prime's point of view, yes. From our point of view the copy is mentally identical to SP.

No, from our point of view Samus is dead and replaced with a copy.

Being mentally identical doesn't change that.

[Lord Raziere]

From Samus Prime's point of view, yes. From our point of view the copy is mentally identical to SP.

Assuming it is, but then again even if Samus II thinks differently to Samus Prime, the alterations are so severe that she likely wouldn't think in the exact same way she did before. Which is why I kind of think it's a moot point from a wider universe PoV.

Yes, from our point of view. it is not a moot point at all, because all your speaking of is social immortality. it continues the memory in other peoples minds, but not the physical being. from everyone else the memory continues, but the original person is dead. for the original it is not immortality or continuation at all, as the other would be doing their thing, but it wouldn't be them. such social immortality values the image and idea of the person over the real thing, reducing them to a brand or a label for everyone else's convenience.

[LaZodiac]

The more I hear about Metroid the more it seems like it's Alien, but Ripley got adopted by the Arisians and given a suit of Starship Trooper armour.


Plus that's amazing Zodi! I've heard getting all this stuff official can be a real pain.

Basically, yeah. Metroid has nowadays a "Doom Slayer In Space" vibe.

Thanks! It took two years!


The Metroids mutate and evolve into horrifying monstrosities from being on the right planet.

And their mutations on other planets are described as being adaption, their life cycles altering according to their for surviving in a new environment.

Unless there's something I missed that says that this is an accident, I'm going to assume that that's a feature, not a bug.

Considering that both the Power Suit and Samus herself are capable of absorbing respectively any bit of energy or tech it happens to need and any biological matter that's injected into her, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that just maybe some kind of adaption is a feature of Chozo engineering.

Yay!Is Starship Trooper aRmor mostly organic and implicitly engineered from space kolas and space ostritches?

Otherwise yes, exactly that.

Samus is explicitly based on Ripley to a degree and the metroids are clearly inspired by the Xenomorphs, save their parasitism is changed from oviposition to draining "life energy" from hosts.

Though by Fusion, there's some influence from The Thing—amorphs slime creatures that infect, take over, consume, and imitate life forms while absorbing their knowledge and memories and, if necessary, being able to merge together itno a more powerful version or mutate their stolen form in interesting ways—and the main prime trilogy involves some outright Lovecraftian influences.

Also, just gonna say it: Samus is goals: By the current point in the timeline she's basically a perfect life form.

I always felt the idea from the Chozo Memories in Samus Returns that the Metroid's growing and evolving and form changing was a Surprise and not intended at all, since it feels a little counter intuitive for your bio weapon to grow out of the weakness you bred into it explicitly to make sure you could kill it if need be, among other problems that arise from "inherently artificial biological organism procreating, thus adding unexpected genetic diversity to something that by its nature must be very strictly controlled due to the danger inherent in making it".

The Chozo like it when the machine sucks another machine into it, so the Power Suit can do that with tech that's slightly compatible. The modular nature of the Power Suit is great and makes me wonder why they haven't introduced some sort of customization system to the series yet, like a lot of modern day Metvania games have.

Samus is goals for transhumanists AND trans humans (or at the very least trans women).

[Rater202]

If a parasite that ate Samus and absorbed her memories counts as Saumus, then I should be able sell forgeries of the Mona Lisa for $860,000,000 usd.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think we might be getting too far into philosophy here, but the meat being an inherent part of personhood isn't a universally held position. My personal views on the subject are complex and can't be put down here.

The other side, I guess, and actually what inspired me to write the original post, was the story beats aspect. I honestly think that even if we're dealing with a Samus copy and not Samus Prime, if we have the dual assumption of 'has Samus's memories up the the copy point' and 'truly believes herself to be Samus'. Maybe there's some detail that makes it untrue, but I'm struggling to come up with one that would work.

I mean, it sounds more Ship of Theseus than Cutty Sark as well, so maybe the transition was slow enough that we're talking about transcendence more than copying.


Yeah, compared to Xenomorph-121 having major weaknesses as a species they haven't bread out of, the designers of Metroids seem to have been even worse. Like, Xenomorphs have a whole host of advantages, but no significant resistance to the kind of weapons spacefaring species will have access to (in some ways they feel more like a terror weapon).

[Rater202]

I think we might be getting too far into philosophy here, but the meat being an inherent part of personhood isn't a universally held position.

The problem is that in that case it assumes that 1: the data stored in the meat is a person and not just information or 2: That tangible, discrete "soul" exists independent of the physical vessel.

Neither can be assumed to be fact. In the absence of those factors, the only discrete measure of personhood is a specific individual consciousness running with no unnatural disruption to continuity. The destruction of her brain in the process of her body being consumed by an X would inherently disrupt continuity.

The only way that a parasite assimilating Samus would still be Sasums is if Samus has a discrete consciousness that retains her personhood independent of her meat vessel and that consciousness transfers over to and overwrites the consciousness of the parasite.

And that's not the scenario being discussed.

Otherwise, it's just copied data running on a different processor.

[tomandtish]

Could be anything up to 800 miles, Texas is a big place! Larger than France in terms of area, in fact.

it's a hair over 800 miles north to south as the crow flies. Driving, it's 857 miles from Stratford, TX (panhandle) to Brownsville, TX.


The Texas panhandle is the northernmost part of the state. Not sure what's meant by "the valley" (not a native Texan here :smalltongue:), but I'd assume it corresponds to one of the major rivers, which are mostly in the southern part of the state. If I had to guess, it'd be a couple hundred miles apart at least.

Brownsville is in what is called the valley (short for Rio Grande Valley), which is the southern four counties in Texas: Cameron, Hidalgo, Starr, and Willacy. (Interesting side effect of my job is that I can name a/the major city in each county.)

[Rater202]

I made the mistake of getting my booster in an arm that was already a little sore for unrelated reasons.

[BisectedBrioche]

The more I hear about Metroid the more it seems like it's Alien, but Ripley got adopted by the Arisians and given a suit of Starship Trooper armour.


Plus that's amazing Zodi! I've heard getting all this stuff official can be a real pain.

I think the best summary I've heard is "Alien(s) if Vasquez was the protagonist" or "...if Vasquez and Ripley were the same character".

Or "Resident Evil starring a Space Marine".

EDIT: While we're on the subject, this is a pretty good video on the influences on the series, including some of the more obscure ones:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGwWpbHLcXU

Direct link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGwWpbHLcXU)

[Rater202]

According to the original Peter Pan novel, a book for children first published in 1911, fairies, which spontaneously come into existence when babies laugh for the first time, come in three colors that correspond to gender: Mauve for boys, white for girls, and blue for "little sillies who don't know what they are."

Logically speaking, fairies shouldn't have biological sexes: The purpose of such is sexual reproduction and fairies don't reproduce sexually... Or at all. They just kind of happen.

Assuming that the glow of fairies is some kind of bio-illuminance, this would suggest that fairies decide their own gender and their biology changes to match.

[Fyraltari]

According to the original Peter Pan novel, a book for children first published in 1911, fairies, which spontaneously come into existence when babies laugh for the first time, come in three colors that correspond to gender: Mauve for boys, white for girls, and blue for "little sillies who don't know what they are."

Logically speaking, fairies should have biological sexes: The purpose of such is sexual reproduction and fairies don't reproduce sexually... Or at all. They just kind of happen.

Why would fairies have a biological gender*? Sounds like they just get a colour depending on their human's gender or lack thereof.

It's not like they have any need for one.

*Somehow, I initially wrote "danger".

Also, Rater, you who seems to be the most passionate about superhero comic books, 'round these parts, do you know the Youtube parody channel Society of Virtue?

[Rater202]

Why would fairies have a biological gender*? Sounds like they just get a colour depending on their human's gender or lack thereof.

It's not like they have any need for one.https://i.redd.it/kxb7bz37j2a81.jpgIt's very clearly referring to the faires, not the babies.

I'm just making an inference: The fact that blue fairies are described as "not knowing what they are" in the context of other colors corresponding to gender indicates that a fairy's physical characteristics(biology) are derived from their perception of their own gender identity.

EDIT:Never mind, there was a typo in my last post that I only just caught.

Fairies should not have biological sexes.
Also, Rater, you who seems to be the most passionate about superhero comic books, 'round these parts, do you know the Youtube parody channel Society of Virtue?

I have not.

And I'm gonna be honest, I don't care for most parodies or destructions of superheroes. They tend to be mean-spirited and overly cynical.

[Peelee]

And I'm gonna be honest, I don't care for most parodies or destructions of superheroes. They tend to be mean-spirited and overly cynical.

Frankly, I find most superhero stories to be unbelievably rose-colored, and believe myself to be a raging idealist.

[enderlord99]

Frankly, I find most superhero stories to be unbelievably rose-colored, and believe myself to be a raging idealist.

Presumably that's why the parodies are the exact opposite.

[Lord Raziere]

And I'm gonna be honest, I don't care for most parodies or destructions of superheroes. They tend to be mean-spirited and overly cynical.

I on the other hand, could check out this "Society of Virtue". see if its probably first episode is any good.

......okay an episode I found is about how women are objectified in comics and the complex issues surrounding that, which y'know, accurate. but lets see the second one with the aquaman parody before passing judgment.

okay the second one was about the aquaman guy being allergic to shrimp but then its implied he is racist to shrimpmen or at least looks like he is, but when the episode is over turns out he was actually allergic.

......I mean get the jokes, but I'm just not laughing, or feeling much of anything. good animation and art but eh......*shrug* based on these its probably on that overly cynical vibe. the humor feels cheap and vaguely adult-swim-y. don't think I'd recommend.

[Fyraltari]

https://i.redd.it/kxb7bz37j2a81.jpgIt's very clearly referring to the faires, not the babies.

I'm just making an inference: The fact that blue fairies are described as "not knowing what they are" in the context of other colors corresponding to gender indicates that a fairy's physical characteristics(biology) are derived from their perception of their own gender identity.

EDIT:Never mind, there was a typo in my last post that I only just caught.

Fairies should not have biological sexes.
Oh, okay, your post wasn't very clear on that, and the only version of Peter Pan I'm really familiar with is Loisel's.


I have not.

And I'm gonna be honest, I don't care for most parodies or destructions of superheroes. They tend to be mean-spirited and overly cynical.
They're more on the "poke fun at the inherent absurdity of various tropes", but I get your position.

Frankly, I find most superhero stories to be unbelievably rose-colored, and believe myself to be a raging idealist.
I mean, I've been told The Punisher is a superhero, so...

[Peelee]

I mean, I've been told The Punisher is a superhero, so...

I don't know if he's considered a superhero, actually.

Regardless (because I don't really care), I'm apparently a sucker for shows like The Boys and Invincible which explore actual ramifications of superheroes in the world. Invincible even more so than The Boys, that one is crazy good. I should check out the comics.

[Fyraltari]

I on the other hand, could check out this "Society of Virtue". see if its probably first episode is any good.

It's hit-and-miss I would say.

I don't know if he's considered a superhero, actually.

He's the protagonist of a series in a world of superheroes.

[Rater202]

I mean, I've been told The Punisher is a superhero, so...

He's not.

He was presented as one in the 90s, but...

So Frank first appeared in the 70s as a Spider-Man villain.

He was a "realistic" vigilante and a deconstruction of the concept of being "tough on crime" and vigilante executions.

His whole stick was that he'd be manipulated into thinking Spider-Man was a criminal and then show up and try to murder him... More than once. Or trying to take out some relatively minor criminals that Spider-Man was trying to catch alive.

On one occasion, Frank murdered a drug dealer in cold blood... Then saw that it was a teenager and started cradling the kid's body and screaming about how "crime" cost that boy his life...

In his final appearance before getting his own series, Frank was just indiscrinantly murdering people for jaywalking. This was later retconned into Frank having been drugged against his will with something that removed all of his inhibitions, but... That's not the saving grace that the writer thought it was.

Then in the early 90s, someone who didn't get the memo decided to se Frank for a storyline about an edgy anti-hero who took the law into his own hands and...

BAsically just wrote a comic that appeals to edgy teens who think that violence is cool.

and that was okay when they depicted Frank as hunting down old school mafioso who didn't play by the rules or care if innocent people got caught in the crossfire... But as time went on he was more and more just murdering people who were stupid or desperate and got caught up in things bigger than then, a lot of whom were barely adults or even outright teenagers, many of whom were people of color.

A wolverine comic pointed out that Frank's actions didn't deter crime and if anything had only caused an escalation in criminal activity as more moderate criminals either leave town or die while anyone who is actually crazy and dangerous enough to keep up with Frank suddenly have more room to breathe.

Since the Mid Oughts Marvel's been backing down and depicting Frank more and more of a broken, unstable and dangerous man who is easily manipulated into being a threat and can't be trusted not to kill And he admits it too, when he's alone in the dark he admits that he's just a man full of hatred who likes killing...

Just getting back to the orignal point of his character...

But the damage is done.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't know if he's considered a superhero, actually.

Regardless (because I don't really care), I'm apparently a sucker for shows like The Boys and Invincible which explore actual ramifications of superheroes in the world. Invincible even more so than The Boys, that one is crazy good. I should check out the comics.

Can you elaborate on your enjoyment of Invincible? I watched it and felt it was...deeply medium.

[Peelee]

Can you elaborate on your enjoyment of Invincible? I watched it and felt it was...deeply medium.

I vehemently agreed with Atom Eve's eventual outlook on things, which is a significant departure from any superhero story I've read. I also greatly enjoyed the dichotomy of the father/son dynamic, goals, and ideals in the main family, and just loved Cecil and Donald - Cecil was a fantastic head in the way that the Avenger movie's Nick Fury wasn't (I couldn't even imagine Cecil saying "given that it was a dumb decision I've elected to ignore it", for example) and Donald's loyalty and unwavering commitment was second to none, even while almost literally staring death in the face.

I also enjoyed the villains, like Doc Seismic suddenly spouting off against systemic sexism in superhero costume dynamics and that he'd done his undergrad in sociology and women studies with a minor in African dance.

The first episode did not wow me at all, and the ending felt like it was just leaning in to the current style of dark superheroes, but it quickly sucked me in with a surprising amount of charm. And, again, Atom Eve is just the best.

Also, specific things like The Immortal coming back to life and having a single, terrifyingly-tunnel-vision focus on "**** Omniman" were great.

[Anonymouswizard]

I just don't really like superheroes. A lot of it has to do with the power levels, I've liked more of the street level supers stuff I've seen, but even then it's just not exactly my cup of tea. It's strange, because I love stuff with magic or psionics (Dr Strange is the only Marvel film I want to rewatch, live action or animated).

[Rater202]

Spider-Man's life sucks. Like, you can cite the fact that he keeps dating model hot women and was happily married for decades and so on, but... His life sucks.

Anytime things are going good for him, any time he acts a tiny bit selfish, or sometimes for no reason at all, the universe conspires to ruin his life.

The closest thing the Marvel Universe has to Satan actively hates Peter and has repeatedly conspired to kill him, corrupt him, or otherwise break him.

He gets the absolute **** beaten out of him on a regular basis.

His loved ones keep dying, and any time he makes a mistake innocent people suffer.

But does he break? Hell No. He keeps getting up. He keeps trying to do the right thing, keeps trying to help people.

He's also incredibly forgiving. Pretty much any time one of his villains tries to make a change for the better he's supportive in their attempts to turn their lives around. and if he knows there's good in you, he won't stop reaching out for it even if you're trying to kill him.

Captain America was a severely physically disabled son of Irish immigrants living who grew up in Brooklyn in the 20s and 30s. The Irish were not well-liked at this time in America, and the disabled...

I'm not gonna sugar-coated, everywhere Steve went he would have been treated s if he was a burden on his parents and on good hard working people and that he was inherently undeserving of life. If Steve 616's disabilities were anything comparable to MUC Steve's(details aren't given) then the kind of things he would have had to do just to be barely functional on a daily basis would be absolutly exhausting, and there was a very real risk that if e was hospitalized or institutionalized for any reason that he would have been euthanized, lobotomized, or sterilized.

After Steve's father lost his job he turned tot he drink and became physically and verbally abusive to both Steve and his mother.

No one, and I mean no one, would have had the right to criticize Stee if he'd turned bitter and cynical, but instead he... Just wanted to help people. He saw that bad stuff was going down in europe and wanted to help, and when the army wouldn't take him he volunteered for an experiment that had good odds of killing him on the chance that it would let him help people.

And the Serum... The Serum's effects feel good. The MCU depicted the procedure as painful, and by all means being broken down and rebuilt at the molecular level, having your very DNA rewritten and then scaled up until you absolutely perfect should hurt, but no. It's depicted as being... Just kind of a thing. On one occasion Steve even describes it as feeling good.

And being strong? And HEalthy? It feels good, yeah? So imagine how good being in literally perfect shape by any reasonable metric would feel? Especially when you're going from being an 80 pound asthmatic weakling with scoliosis and anemia to being superhumanly healthy.

Steve could have been forgiven if that had gone to his head a little but... No. He's still the exact same person after as he was before, just taller and less tired.

He fought n a terrible war, saw frineds die, was frozen for decades, lost everyone he knew and loved almost, and ever since then it's been a constant fight where he struggles with his ideals verses what the world is really like... But at the end of the day he's still just a kid from Brooklyn who wants to help people.There have been 21 attempted genocides of mutants. The state of mutants in the world has been constantly getting worse since the comics were first published in the sixties.

And you can say what you will about how arrogant Charles Xavier is, and his mistakes, and... Yeah.

And yet... He can still look people in the eye, people who hate him, people who want him and everyone like him dead, people who have actively tried to do so, look them in the eye... And say that he believes that they can be friends someday.

Like... So one of the conceits of the Krakoan era is that Moira McTaggart, a long-term ally of the X-Men, is secretly a mutant herself and that her power is that every time she dies, she is sent back in time and reincarnates as herself.

She's spent the last several lifetimes (collectively over a millennium) trying to prevent futures where mutants are wiped out or enslaved by the machines or by post-human cyborgs following a machine uprising. She has become convinced that it's inevitable and the current timeline, everything with KRakoa, is the last-ditch effort.

The problem is that the machines are already here.

Xavier notices that everything they do to try and stop them makes it worse... So he asks Moira "have you ever tried befriending them?"

And... We're not talking about The Vision here. Not about Starks's assistant AIs, not Machine Man. Not Bucky Barnes with his robot arm

We are talking about Sentinels and the Children for the Vault.

"Have you ever considered making friends with the robots designed specifically to murder us and the genetically engineered post-human cyborgs created solely to forcibly supplant us as the evolutionary descendants of Homo s sapiens?"

This man for all of his faults is just that optimistic about the inherent goodness of people.
Let's move over to the Distinguished Competition for a bit. Let's talk Superman.

Clark is a God. Not literally, of course, but the distinction is academic. He is immortal, he is invincible, his power is virtually unlimited, there is virtually nothing he can't do. In vitually every measure of a human being, physical or mental, he is as far beyond humans as humans are beyond single-celled organisms.

And yet... When he's not saving the world from disaster-fighting beings just as powerful as himself to protect people, he's...

... goes out of his way to help children find their lost pets.

Or sitting with people who are on the ledge, listening to their problems, and gently carrying them down when they decide they're not ready to end things after all.

When's he's not doing that... He's just a guy.

The idea that he should be beyond or above normal humans due to his powers and intellect is alien to him. It never crosses his mind and he rejects it outright if it's brought up.That's what superheroes are. Superheroes are people who, when faced with the inherent unfairness and cruelty of the world and of their fellow man, say "why not be good?" These are people who stare into the abyss... And tell it "come on, I know you can do better than that. If you want, I can show you how" and sometimes... sometimes the Abyss blinks.

It's not the radiation, not the drugs, not the super-genetics that makes a superhero.

It's the idea that anyone—anyone, could find themselves suddenly with the knowledge of how the world truly works and the power to do something about it. And choose to be greater. Use that to help people, to try and make the world a better place.

I... I am a cynical ******* at the best of times. I... Can't let go of things that happen me, not easily. But...

...These stories make me want to be a better person.

The fact that people can even conceive of these kinds of characters holding on to their goodness in the light of what they've been through and keep trying to put goodness out into the world... Makes me feel, in my darker moments, that may be the world isn't that bad after all. If the world was so bad, then people wouldn't be able to imagine these kinds of stories, right?

That's what superheroes are about.

And... The dark and edgy anti-hero stories, the parodies, the deconstructions... They just don't get it.

[Lord Raziere]

....In that respect then, Rater I would say that Atom eve and Invincible of Invincible meet the quality of "stare into the abyss and keep fighting for whats good and best" and to some extent others that you speak of. at least in the animated season I've seen. the only real difference I'd say between Invincible and normal superhero comics is that it doesn't sugarcoat how lethal combat is, and the superman of the setting is a teenage boy also serving as its spiderman.
and his father is basically Zod as a sleeper agent for evil kryptonians pretending to be Superman

[Peelee]

That's what superheroes are. Superheroes are people who, when faced with the inherent unfairness and cruelty of the world and of their fellow man, say "why not be good?" These are people who stare into the abyss... And tell it "come on, I know you can do better than that. If you want, I can show you how" and sometimes... sometimes the Abyss blinks.
That's not a superhero. That's people. Sure, not all people, but solid, good people. The best people. They're heroes. Nothing super about them, we can all be that, it's just difficult. You can be a hero if you choose to be.

Superheroes have magic powers or fancy gadgets or magic powers disguised as inhuman skills if they want to try to go low key with it.

....In that respect then, Rater I would say that Atom eve and Invincible of Invincible meet the quality of "stare into the abyss and keep fighting for whats good and best" and to some extent others that you speak of.

Atom Eve is just the best.

[Rater202]

So... What you're saying is that it's not a deconstruction?

I mean... There's some pretty realistic violence in comics.

Did you know that if a man could casually lift ten tons over his head and hold it there indefinitely punched another human being in the face as hard as he could it would tear the other man's jaw clean off?

Peter Parker did.

But Otto Octavius ad Macdonald Gargon did not...

...Until after Otto stole Peter's body and spent about a year impersonating him.

Guess how they learned.
That's not a superhero. That's people. Sure, not all people, but solid, good people. The best people. They're heroes. Nothing super about them, we can all be that, it's just difficult. You can be a hero if you choose to be.

Superheroes have magic powers or fancy gadgets or magic powers disguised as inhuman skills if they want to try to go low key with it....Metaphors exist.

for a superhero—a proper superhero, rather than an anti-hero or a deconstructed hero—the powers, the gadgets, the special training are representative of the knowledge of the problem and the means by which you can address it.

The reason good people do nothing, Peelee, is becuase they aren't aware of the problem, or they don't think there's anything they can do, or they don't beleive there's anything they can do.

The superhero's origin story shows them gain th impetus to act, or the ability to act, or both... Often times the origin of the hero's power and the origin of their desire to help people are interconnected to some degree.

[Lord Raziere]

So... What you're saying is that it's not a deconstruction?

I mean... There's some pretty realistic violence in comics.

Did you know that if a man could casually lift ten tons over his head and hold it there indefinitely punched another human being in the face as hard as he could it would tear the other man's jaw clean off?

Peter Parker did.

But Otto Octavius ad Macdonald Gargon did not...


to be honest, I think some people overuse deconstruction to mean "well-written" now.

and thats coming from me who likes the concept of deconstructing a trope. just on a general conceptual level.

people tend to have very idealized cleaned up ideas about the norm of a genre, I find. but when you actually look at what is the norm and what originated it and they are often darker than the memes people get out of them. like in all probability, Sailor Moon is more terrifying and darker than most sailor moon imitators aside from things like PMMM that set out to be darker than it.

I'd say Invincible is basically "Justice League meets Spiderman if he had Superman's powers, but innocent people actually die/aren't always saved when combat happens and its not pretty". (not for the lack of trying to save them mind you, its just that....its combat, its scary and ugly for a reason)

[Peelee]

Metaphors exist.

I'm aware, but at the end of the day, there's no shortage of stories about people choosing to be good when the chips are down and come what may. Superhero stories just inject a power fantasy on top of that, and so if you're not reading the other stories and are obsessed with the superhero stories, it's probably the power fantasy which is really drawing the attention.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm aware, but at the end of the day, there's no shortage of stories about people choosing to be good when the chips are down and come what may. Superhero stories just inject a power fantasy on top of that, and so if you're not reading the other stories and are obsessed with the superhero stories, it's probably the power fantasy which is really drawing the attention.

eh, a little cynical to think that.

sometimes the same message needs to be packaged differently for different people. it may not be your way, but if it works, why be negative about it?

[Rater202]

I'm aware, but at the end of the day, there's no shortage of stories about people choosing to be good when the chips are down and come what may. Superhero stories just inject a power fantasy on top of that, and so if you're not reading the other stories and are obsessed with the superhero stories, it's probably the power fantasy which is really drawing the attention.Of course it is.

The average human being has no power to make real change. Many of those who do either never use it or are part of the problem.

If people could just go out and solve the world's problems on their own there'd be no market for superhero stories.

You think I'd be reading superhero comics if I had the means to fix the flaws in the public school system? Or toxic work culture?

[Peelee]

eh, a little cynical to think that.

sometimes the same message needs to be packaged differently for different people. it may not be your way, but if it works, why be negative about it?
A.) I didn't say anything about enjoying superhero stories. I was explicit about obsessing about superhero stories.
2.) I also did not say there's anything wrong with power fantasy. Hell, that's no small part of why I love the Arkham trilogy.

The average human being has no power to make real change.

I disagree. And, also, Stan Lee disagreed, IIRC. Sure, there are obstacles that hold you back, but that's no different from anyone else. All that mindset does is make yourself the first and biggest obstacle.

[Rater202]

Peelee, historically change has been caused by either large numbers of people working in tandem in order to essentially overwhelm the problem, exceptional people having access to the resources to use their talents, or else the people responsible for the problem dying.

The average person is by definition not exceptional, and most people aren't charismatic enough to gather the thousands of followers needed to effect change by force.

The closest thing to being a hero I could reasonably achieve is contributing effort to other people's attempts to solve problems...

If that counts as a hero, then...

I've been told I was a good ffirend becuase I stood by someone's side when they were in a bad place... Because I had basic empathy and did the bare minimum to help a friend who was hurting.

This baffles me.

It's the same principle. If I could be a hero just by doing the bare minimum to effect change. Then the term hero is utterly pointless.

[flat_footed]

I don't know if he's considered a superhero, actually.

Regardless (because I don't really care), I'm apparently a sucker for shows like The Boys and Invincible which explore actual ramifications of superheroes in the world. Invincible even more so than The Boys, that one is crazy good. I should check out the comics.

:smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Peelee, historically change has been caused by either large numbers of people working in tandem in order to essentially overwhelm the problem, exceptional people having access to the resources to use their talents, or else the people responsible for the problem dying.

The average person is by definition not exceptional, and most people aren't charismatic enough to gather the thousands of followers needed to effect change by force.

Many people are ordinary until they do something that makes others call them extraordinary. If you want to say you can't change anything and then use that as an excuse to not try, then I can't stop you. But if you try to disseminate that message and prevent others from trying, then I'm going to oppose you every time I can. You can give up on yourself. That's your prerogative. But don't try to get others to give up on themselves.

[Rater202]

Many people are ordinary until they do something that makes others call them extraordinary. If you want to say you can't change anything and then use that as an excuse to not try, then I can't stop you. But if you try to disseminate that message and prevent others from trying, then I'm going to oppose you every time I can. You can give up on yourself. That's your prerogative. But don't try to get others to give up on themselves."The average person cannot affect change, it takes a coordinated effort by large numbers of people" is not "never try to affect change."

By definition, the coordinated effort requires people to be trying.

So many people see binary choices where there isn't one.

The point is that f I donate ten cents to feed poor children at Christmas time, that doesn't make me a hero, let alone a superhero.

[Form]

Of course it is.

The average human being has no power to make real change. Many of those who do either never use it or are part of the problem.

If people could just go out and solve the world's problems on their own there'd be no market for superhero stories.

You think I'd be reading superhero comics if I had the means to fix the flaws in the public school system? Or toxic work culture?

Don't try to shoulder the responsibility of saving the world, but little victories are possible. If doing/not doing something makes life just a little bit better for someone somewhere, then it's worthwhile. At least, it's what I try to tell myself from time to time.


Many people are ordinary until they do something that makes others call them extraordinary. If you want to say you can't change anything and then use that as an excuse to not try, then I can't stop you. But if you try to disseminate that message and prevent others from trying, then I'm going to oppose you every time I can. You can give up on yourself. That's your prerogative. But don't try to get others to give up on themselves.

Damn you, Peelee, your optimism might start to rub off on me this way. It took decades to carefully cultivate and hone my cynicism, you know!? Decades!

[Peelee]

"The average person cannot affect change
They can and have. Countless examples exist, most of which are cannot name on here. You have Google. You could find all sorts of examples yourself. You just don't want to.

Again, you're your own biggest stumbling block here.

Damn you, Peelee, your optimism might start to rub off on me this way. It took decades to carefully cultivate and hone my cynicism, you know!? Decades!
https://c.tenor.com/gigrSEDj8xwAAAAC/star-wars-empire.gif

[Fyraltari]

Damn you, Peelee, your optimism might start to rub off on me this way. It took decades to carefully cultivate and hone my cynicism, you know!? Decades!
https://c.tenor.com/gigrSEDj8xwAAAAC/star-wars-empire.gif

https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2057/img-66.JPG
https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2057/img-67.JPG

[LaZodiac]

I think the funniest thing about this conversation is, actually knowing how the comics roll out for Invincible... I think Rater "wins" in the end here. Because Invincible gets kludgy and stupid as hell from what I've seen.

As for The Boys; while some of it is edgy, grim nonsense, I unironically love everything about the arc involving that one specific lady that I can't really discuss in any capacity here. If you've seen the show you know the one. She chases social media like modern day devotees of hers, and is effectively taken care of in the way they usually are, just with the super human upscaling that comes with her being a flying brick.

[Peelee]

I think the funniest thing about this conversation is, actually knowing how the comics roll out for Invincible... I think Rater "wins" in the end here. Because Invincible gets kludgy and stupid as hell from what I've seen.

As for The Boys; while some of it is edgy, grim nonsense, I unironically love everything about the arc involving that one specific lady that I can't really discuss in any capacity here. If you've seen the show you know the one. She chases social media like modern day devotees of hers, and is effectively taken care of in the way they usually are, just with the super human upscaling that comes with her being a flying brick.

Then here's hoping the show does better. I have faith.

[LaZodiac]

Then here's hoping the show does better. I have faith.

I genuinely hope so, because nothing stings more than "man this show is awesome!!!!" and then the later seasons being so bad it makes you regret ever enjoying it.

*shakes fist at The Promised Neverland*

[Peelee]

I genuinely hope so, because nothing stings more than "man this show is awesome!!!!" and then the later seasons being so bad it makes you regret ever enjoying it.

*shakes fist at The Promised Neverland*

I've heard stories that GoT is a master class in this.

[Lord Raziere]

I genuinely hope so, because nothing stings more than "man this show is awesome!!!!" and then the later seasons being so bad it makes you regret ever enjoying it.

*shakes fist at The Promised Neverland*

I mean from what I've gathered, the show does stuff better than the comics at the beginning anyways, so I'm betting on the show being one of those adaptations that are better than the source.

also in my experience, comic book adaptations whether they be animated or live action tend to be more accessible, better done and less ridiculous than the actual comics themselves. superhero comic books as a medium is held back by its constant need for continuity, crossover, and power escalation that outdoes whatever ridiculousness you think DBZ is guilty of. when they adapt certain stories about superheroes on the other hand, they have the freedom for those stories to be self-contained, and to write them to make more sense. I'd be willing to bet on animated Invincible being better than comic book Invincible.

[Peelee]

At the very least, y'all have convinced me to not check out the comics and just keep waiting for the next season.

[Fyraltari]

I've heard stories that GoT is a master class in this.

That seems to be more of a case of "could no longer used the source material as a clutch".

[Keltest]

That seems to be more of a case of "could no longer used the source material as a clutch".

I think there were other logistical issues behind the last season in particular as well.

[Anonymouswizard]

I also in my experience, comic book adaptations whether they be animated or live action tend to be more accessible, better done and less ridiculous than the actual comics themselves. superhero comic books as a medium is held back by its constant need for continuity, crossover, and power escalation that outdoes whatever ridiculousness you think DBZ is guilty of.

I'd offer counterexamples, but they're all Japanese and don't have the extended universe issues of American comics.

But I have heard very good things about Hellblazer and plan to get into it.


I think there were other logistical issues behind the last season in particular as well.

While I tuned out of the show at about episode 2 because I was feeling like they expected me to watch for the breasts and not for the story (and have only read half of the first book), I've got the impression that they ended up a season short in at least one character's plot arc.

[factotum]

I've heard stories that GoT is a master class in this.

Oh, Lost and Heroes were doing "increasingly disappointing as they went along" before it was cool!

In other news, being a diabetic on chemo *sucks*. My blood sugar is all over the place right now, it was three times higher than it should be when I checked it half an hour ago.

[Rater202]

I genuinely hope so, because nothing stings more than "man this show is awesome!!!!" and then the later seasons being so bad it makes you regret ever enjoying it.

*shakes fist at The Promised Neverland*Howabout when the promotional material and early episodes make you think it's a specific premise but then it turns into something completely different.

I will never forgive RWBY for abandoning the adventure academy premise. RWBY wasn't exactly great, but the quality noticeably went down halfway through season 3 when the plot happened.

[Peelee]

Howabout when the promotional material and early episodes make you think it's a specific premise but then it turns into something completely different.


My brother and I saw some teasers for Anchorman and thought it looked good, so we went to go see it. As I recall, every single scene in the commercial we saw ended up being centered from the movie, which was an odd choice since they were clearly the only funny scenes they bothered to film. We both hated it.

To this day, I am upset that they advertised a movie that I did not see.

[HalfTangible]

I've heard stories that GoT is a master class in this.

"Daenarys kinda forgot about the iron fleet" -Actual commentary from the creators

[LaZodiac]

I've heard stories that GoT is a master class in this.

Yeah... yeah. I genuinely think it's impressive that something that was SUCH a cultural phenomenon, a massive pop culture icon... had an ending so bad it completely killed every single inch of power it had.



also in my experience, comic book adaptations whether they be animated or live action tend to be more accessible, better done and less ridiculous than the actual comics themselves. superhero comic books as a medium is held back by its constant need for continuity, crossover, and power escalation that outdoes whatever ridiculousness you think DBZ is guilty of. when they adapt certain stories about superheroes on the other hand, they have the freedom for those stories to be self-contained, and to write them to make more sense. I'd be willing to bet on animated Invincible being better than comic book Invincible.

In the case of the Promised Neverland, the manga fell completely to ****, and the anime... tried its damndest to be as bad as possible in a completely different way.


Howabout when the promotional material and early episodes make you think it's a specific premise but then it turns into something completely different.

I will never forgive RWBY for abandoning the adventure academy premise. RWBY wasn't exactly great, but the quality noticeably went down halfway through season 3 when the plot happened.

Like with GoT's impressive removal of itself from the public consciousness, nothing will ever be as enjoyable to me as RWBY's quality plummeting the instant it tried to be a better show. Oops!

[Rater202]

Gonna be honest, everything I've ever seen or heard about GoT made me feel like it was overrated. I did not get the hype.

There's a Halloween episode of the Simpsons where one of the skits is "Sideshow Bob finally kills Bart only to find that his life is empty without a nemesis."

After getting away with the murder, he becomes a professor of literature at a prestigious university... But most of his students are just taking his class as required and are phoning it in.

He's marking a bunch of essays he considers "drivel" and asks out loud "What is this 'Game of Thrones' they're referencing" and I'm gonna be honest that's a mood.

[Fyraltari]

Like with GoT's impressive removal of itself from the public consciousness, nothing will ever be as enjoyable to me as RWBY's quality plummeting the instant it tried to be a better show. Oops!

That's an odd form of enjoyment.

[Mystic Muse]

That's an odd form of enjoyment.

Blame the Germans for inventing Schadenfreude. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

he becomes a professor of literature at a prestigious university... But most of his students are just taking his class as required and are phoning it in.

Yes, that is quite famously how most 100 level classes are in universities.

[Fyraltari]

Blame the Germans for inventing Schadenfreude. :smallbiggrin:

No, no, Schadenfreude is enjoying somebody else's misery.

[Rater202]

No, no, Schadenfreude is enjoying somebody else's misery.

I think enjoying your own misery is just masochism.

...Can you conidtion masochism? Like, train yourself to enjoy pain?

Because back in middle school I read one of those "rules for living in X setting" for Dragon Ball and one of the rules was "if I have Saiyan biology, I will get a huge bag of sensu beans and someone to torture me almost to death over and over again"

...Which would work, at least at first... But the flaw in that plan is that it's gonna hurt like a son of a bitch. That's kind of thing can leave you screwed up mentally.

So like... Build up to it. Condition your body to have a high threshold/tolerance for pain or even to enjoy pain and... Yeah? Right? So you can abuse the "get stronger every time you almost die" thing without screwing yourself up psychologically?

[Peelee]

I think enjoying your own misery is just masochism.

...Can you conidtion masochism? Like, train yourself to enjoy pain?

Because back in middle school I read one of those "rules for living in X setting" for Dragon Ball and one of the rules was "if I have Saiyan biology, I will get a huge bag of sensu beans and someone to torture me almost to death over and over again"

...Which would work, at least at first... But the flaw in that plan is that it's gonna hurt like a son of a bitch. That's kind of thing can leave you screwed up mentally.

So like... Build up to it. Condition your body to have a high threshold/tolerance for pain or even to enjoy pain and... Yeah? Right? So you can abuse the "get stronger every time you almost die" thing without screwing yourself up psychologically?

The better answer would be "whoever wrote that didn't really think through the implications".

[Anonymouswizard]

I think enjoying your own misery is just masochism.

...Can you conidtion masochism? Like, train yourself to enjoy pain?

Because back in middle school I read one of those "rules for living in X setting" for Dragon Ball and one of the rules was "if I have Saiyan biology, I will get a huge bag of sensu beans and someone to torture me almost to death over and over again"

...Which would work, at least at first... But the flaw in that plan is that it's gonna hurt like a son of a bitch. That's kind of thing can leave you screwed up mentally.

So like... Build up to it. Condition your body to have a high threshold/tolerance for pain or even to enjoy pain and... Yeah? Right? So you can abuse the "get stronger every time you almost die" thing without screwing yourself up psychologically?

I mean, from a BDSM view, I think that the pain required to get any kind of serious benefit would be far past a standard masochist's tolerance. Safewords exist because even SSC stuff can be beyond somebody's limits, and even this the sensu beans this is probably going far beyond SSC in magnitude. You could probably get there but it would probably take thousands of screamings of (you know what, I don't know any common safewords and probably can't use mine here).

If you can I'd recommend doing as much of it as possible under general anesthesia instead.

[Lord Raziere]

I think enjoying your own misery is just masochism.

...Can you conidtion masochism? Like, train yourself to enjoy pain?

Because back in middle school I read one of those "rules for living in X setting" for Dragon Ball and one of the rules was "if I have Saiyan biology, I will get a huge bag of sensu beans and someone to torture me almost to death over and over again"

...Which would work, at least at first... But the flaw in that plan is that it's gonna hurt like a son of a bitch. That's kind of thing can leave you screwed up mentally.

So like... Build up to it. Condition your body to have a high threshold/tolerance for pain or even to enjoy pain and... Yeah? Right? So you can abuse the "get stronger every time you almost die" thing without screwing yourself up psychologically?

I mean the problem is, things like this in the body are connected. we experience pain, that signals us to be more alert for danger and saiyan biology is all about adapting and overcoming danger, if pain is so enjoyed that the body is tricked into thinking its no longer a danger, the zenkai might stop working because you made it think that you want this, so that the zenkai reaction might not trigger at a certain point, much like becoming immune to poison: sure your immune to the poison but alcohol is also a poison in a manner of speaking (everything is technically poison in some amount of course) so when you build up resistance like that, you tend to lose the benefits as well as the downsides of zenkai.

but then you might die of senzu bean poisoning: we technically don't know what happens when you eat too much senzu beans at once. there has to be a reason that you only eat one at a time and that because one is all you need to be full. overeating is bad, so a second senzu bean will fill you up again, and third would make you three times full and so on. they're magical beans but that might just mean the toxic levels of senzu bean might be fast as two senzu one after another.

finally both of these things are plot conveniences, so if whatever your doing doesn't work with whatever plot Toribot's doing prepare for it to not work, or worse: for it to work but you end up being used as a Vegeta where your method makes you strong but its not as good as good old fashioned hard work, so you get beaten by the villain then you get shown up by Goku.

[tyckspoon]

If you can I'd recommend doing as much of it as possible under general anesthesia instead.

Probably wouldn't work. The reaction they're trying to exploit is kind of analogous to.. I guess like an immune response? Or more generally a very extreme version of the general healing/growth reaction, where when you put stress on a part of your body it gets built up stronger in response? Basically the Saiyan's body goes "oh holy crap I almost died, we need to get stronger faster so that doesn't happen again!" It likely would not work or not have the same potency if you weren't actually experiencing the near-death situation and not triggering the same stress responses.

[Lord Raziere]

Probably wouldn't work. The reaction they're trying to exploit is kind of analogous to.. I guess like an immune response? Or more generally a very extreme version of the general healing/growth reaction, where when you put stress on a part of your body it gets built up stronger in response? Basically the Saiyan's body goes "oh holy crap I almost died, we need to get stronger faster so that doesn't happen again!" It likely would not work or not have the same potency if you weren't actually experiencing the near-death situation and not triggering the same stress responses.

Exactly, and if you desensitize yourself to that reaction that could impact how much zenkai you get. I'm pretty sure Vegeta gets more beat up than Goku throughout the series, yet Goku constantly surpasses him- it might be that Goku, having been trained as a martial artist to avoid attacks and fight as well as possible, gets rarer zenkais and thus BETTER zenkais because the one zenkai boost we know for sure Goku gets at the end of the Freeza before he goes super saiyan, pretty much boosts him beyond anything Vegeta was a capable of in one go, while Vegeta had like his post-saiyan saga boost, his post-zarbon boost, his post-Recoome boost, and his post-Krillin boost, Vegeta got zenkai boost four times, Goku got it like twice (though we're not sure how great his post-saiyan saga boost is since we never see him fight before his high-gravity training but after he recovers). so Goku might just get better zenkais because the times he really is in danger are when its actually needed rather than a bunch of times that could've been avoided with better training.

[Rater202]

If you can I'd recommend doing as much of it as possible under general anesthesia instead.
The problem is that your perfecption is kind of part of it.

The common phrasing is "every time you almost die you get stronger" but that's more of a side effect of the process: What's actually happening is that you're subconsciously memorizing your own actions and those of the people who harmed you and then adapt to become a better fighter based on that, while your body heals back stronger from the damage.

It's the fact that you're become both physically and mentally stronger in the process that makes your power increase because Ki is derived partially from your physical health and fitness and partially from your willpower and general spiritedness.

so if you're not under anesthesia then it's not gonna work properly. At most you'll improve physically but won't gain an increase in power level.

Admittedly, consensual torture woulnd't give as big a gain as being beaten almost to death in an authentic fight, but... I mean, Vegeta letting Krillin blast him clean through the chest worked.

...It wasn't enough to make up for the difference between Vegeta and Frieza, but it worked.

but then you might die of senzu bean poisoning: we technically don't know what happens when you eat too much senzu beans at once. there has to be a reason that you only eat one at a time and that because one is all you need to be full. overeating is bad, so a second senzu bean will fill you up again, and third would make you three times full and so on. they're magical beans but that might just mean the toxic levels of senzu bean might be fast as two senzu one after another.

Actually, we do. Yajirobi binges a whole jar full of them in like a minute during the King Piccolo saga. He gets incredibly bloated and has a terrible stomach ache but is fine after a few minutes.

Of course, not too long before that he killed and ate one of King Piccolo's sons so... Yajirobi might be a human garbage disposal.

Anyway this was just a stray thought.

If I wanted to be stronger... Sealas, an original character from the console port of Heroes, created an artificial life-form called Ahms to compliment him. Sealas was intelligent and a skilled fighter but he was relatively weak

So he built a living weapon of Mass Destruction. Ahms was fully sapient but had no will of its own and was programmed to be fully subservient to Sealas.

Ahms also had multiple way to make itself even more powerful... One of which was absorbing other beings and consuming them body and soul.

In most cases, this results in Ahsm becoming more powerful with the knowledge of the absorbed beings and no sign of their personality(and every two beings absorbed caused it to transform) but when it absorbed Sealas it was more like a fusion with Sealas as the dominant consciousness becuase of Ahms lack of free will and total subservience to Sealas.

So.. something like that. Build my ideal body as an android, design it to be able to absorb entities in the same Manner as Ahms, program it to be sbservent to myself and lack a will of it's own, and then have it absorb me so I have the power and perfect body.
Exactly, and if you desensitize yourself to that reaction that could impact how much zenkai you get. I'm pretty sure Vegeta gets more beat up than Goku throughout the series, yet Goku constantly surpasses him- it might be that Goku, having been trained as a martial artist to avoid attacks and fight as well as possible, gets rarer zenkais and thus BETTER zenkais because the one zenkai boost we know for sure Goku gets at the end of the Freeza before he goes super saiyan, pretty much boosts him beyond anything Vegeta was a capable of in one go, while Vegeta had like his post-saiyan saga boost, his post-zarbon boost, his post-Recoome boost, and his post-Krillin boost, Vegeta got zenkai boost four times, Goku got it like twice (though we're not sure how great his post-saiyan saga boost is since we never see him fight before his high-gravity training but after he recovers). so Goku might just get better zenkais because the times he really is in danger are when its actually needed rather than a bunch of times that could've been avoided with better training.

That doesn't seem to be the case: The Saiyan Power is credited for Goku's being able to complete his gravity training—which is presented as Goku cranking the gravity up to 100, staying like that till he could move, and then using the Bending Kamehameha to blast himself. Supplemental materials state that he received multiple power boosts at this time.

Which contradicts Vegeta's later statement that self-inflicted injuries don't count... But it's posisble that that's just what Vegeta believes.

We're also told that a long fight with multiple small injuries gives more than a short fight with a handful of major injuries.

My personal theory is that how much you get is based on how much fighting you've done since you last rested, how intense the fight was, your base power, was the other guy meaningly more powerful than you? and how long you take to rest and recover in addition to the severity of your injuries.

Though Super Saiyan 4 in GT and God Power in Super seem to remove the "rest and recover" rquirements, as do Super Broly's mutations, while God Power seems to magnify both how much power you get and how much more skilled you get as a fighter—notably Goku Black who spontaneously gains new techniques when he takes a bad hit in his Super Saiyan Rose form.

[Lord Raziere]

The problem is that your perfecption is kind of part of it.

The common phrasing is "every time you almost die you get stronger" but that's more of a side effect of the process: What's actually happening is that you're subconsciously memorizing your own actions and those of the people who harmed you and then adapt to become a better fighter based on that, while your body heals back stronger from the damage.

It's the fact that you're become both physically and mentally stronger in the process that makes your power increase because Ki is derived partially from your physical health and fitness and partially from your willpower and general spiritedness.

so if you're not under anesthesia then it's not gonna work properly. At most you'll improve physically but won't gain an increase in power level.

Admittedly, consensual torture woulnd't give as big a gain as being beaten almost to death in an authentic fight, but... I mean, Vegeta letting Krillin blast him clean through the chest worked.

...It wasn't enough to make up for the difference between Vegeta and Frieza, but it worked.
.

Meaning I'm right and its better to NOT abuse the zenkai boost, because your not going to get a lot of benefit out of being tortured, combat-wise. the memorization process is clearly an important part that makes Goku's zenkai better because he is an actual martial artist and we're shown a lot of times that pure power and brute force doesn't mean much compared to someone who is both strong and skilled.

that and there is also the fact nearly dying is....well nearly dying and could easily become actually dying or dead if a mistake is made during any part of the process.

also no human doctor would be willing to oversee this, as they won't believe you about the saiyan biology because you'd look human and human biology has the opposite reaction of zenkai boosts to constant damage....which is that your body gets worn out and you have to go into retirement early like a football athlete.

Edit: then training is the best Zenkai boost Rater, because its literally the smallest most amount of injuries over the longest period of time. because exercise is literally just optimized tearing down and rebuilding your body.

[Rater202]

Meaning I'm right and its better to NOT abuse the zenkai boost, because your not going to get a lot of benefit out of being tortured, combat-wise. the memorization process is clearly an important part that makes Goku's zenkai better because he is an actual martial artist and we're shown a lot of times that pure power and brute force doesn't mean much compared to someone who is both strong and skilled.

that and there is also the fact nearly dying is....well nearly dying and could easily become actually dying or dead if a mistake is made during any part of the process.

also no human doctor would be willing to oversee this, as they won't believe you about the saiyan biology because you'd look human and human biology has the opposite reaction of zenkai boosts to constant damage....which is that your body gets worn out and you have to go into retirement early like a football athlete.

Edit: then training is the best Zenkai boost Rater, because its literally the smallest most amount of injuries over the longest period of time. because exercise is literally just optimized tearing down and rebuilding your body.

I mean, again, I'm not advocating for this. I'm just thinking "you know... If you wanna abuse your ability to heal back stronger, maybe acclimate to pain before jumping straight to voluntary torture."

[Anonymouswizard]

Probably wouldn't work. The reaction they're trying to exploit is kind of analogous to.. I guess like an immune response? Or more generally a very extreme version of the general healing/growth reaction, where when you put stress on a part of your body it gets built up stronger in response? Basically the Saiyan's body goes "oh holy crap I almost died, we need to get stronger faster so that doesn't happen again!" It likely would not work or not have the same potency if you weren't actually experiencing the near-death situation and not triggering the same stress responses.

Then I'm not sure that the sensu bean version would work either.

Honestly, for such an extreme adaptation I'm not sure it's likely to work in any kind of rapid succession. Maybe for the subconscious analysis part Rater went over, but certainly not the physical bit.

I think is is why so many fictional universe's have some kind of 'only can be enhanced once' rule, generally with some kind of implication that yes, they've tried it.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean, again, I'm not advocating for this. I'm just thinking "you know... If you wanna abuse your ability to heal back stronger, maybe acclimate to pain before jumping straight to voluntary torture."

maybe say that outright beforehand then.


Then I'm not sure that the sensu bean version would work either.

Honestly, for such an extreme adaptation I'm not sure it's likely to work in any kind of rapid succession. Maybe for the subconscious analysis part Rater went over, but certainly not the physical bit.

I think is is why so many fictional universe's have some kind of 'only can be enhanced once' rule, generally with some kind of implication that yes, they've tried it.

Yeah, on a similar note I've been turning over in my head to figure out how to explain why something like the Uchiha Clan isn't filled with Mangekyo Sharingan users because of the whole "seeing loved ones die" thing, and especially why genjutsu would not work to give them all of it because someone would try to do that to get a military advantage in naruto's world. its one of those things are dramatic in the context its supposed to be done in, but some fans want to cheat around with or cheapen the cost for their kewl OCs.

[Rater202]

maybe say that outright beforehand then.I could have sworn I did
So like... Build up to it. Condition your body to have a high threshold/tolerance for pain or even to enjoy pain and... Yeah? Right? So you can abuse the "get stronger every time you almost die" thing without screwing yourself up psychologically?


Yeah, on a similar note I've been turning over in my head to figure out how to explain why something like the Uchiha Clan isn't filled with Mangekyo Sharingan users because of the whole "seeing loved ones die" thing, and especially why genjutsu would not work to give them all of it because someone would try to do that to get a military advantage in naruto's world. its one of those things are dramatic in the context its supposed to be done in, but some fans want to cheat around with or cheapen the cost for their kewl OCs.

1: It doesn't seem to be common knowledge within the clan itself.

2: While the Sharignan is powered by stress, the trigger Mangekyo specifically seems to be "feel directly responsible for the death of your best friend or sibling" which is... Hard

3: Genjutsu probably doesn't work because it's not real. If you know ahead of time that it's fake then...

So let's use Sarada as an example: In order to awaken her Mangekyo with a Genjutsu, you would have to trap her in a Tsukuyomi tier illusion without her noticing and put her in situations where her friends and family die in ways that she can rationalize as her fault, and you'd have to spring it on her without any idea that it's going to happen.

[Lord Raziere]

1 and 3, I agree with.

2 is headscratchy, because Kakashi killed Rin, not Obito. the guilt/responsibility part is the first I've heard of that given all the stuff I've watched and read about Naruto. it fits Itachi killing shisui and Sasuke killing Itachi to a certain extent (if you ignore the fact that Itachi died to an illness and thus technically no one can be said to have killed Itachi) but I'm pretty sure Obito was blaming anyone and everyone BUT him for Rin's death given what his plan was.

[Rater202]

1 and 3, I agree with.

2 is headscratchy, because Kakashi killed Rin, not Obito. the guilt/responsibility part is the first I've heard of that given all the stuff I've watched and read about Naruto. it fits Itachi killing shisui and Sasuke killing Itachi to a certain extent (if you ignore the fact that Itachi died to an illness and thus technically no one can be said to have killed Itachi) but I'm pretty sure Obito was blaming anyone and everyone BUT him for Rin's death given what his plan was.I always figured with Obito it was some kind of sympathetic connection—Kakashi's Sharingan came from Obito, and Obito was right there when Rin throw herself in the way of Kakashi's attack. Obito's eye and Kakashi's turned at the same time, and honestly reading it in the manga I sort of got the impression that Obito was briefly able to see through the eye he gave to Kakashi when that happened.

Now where Shin's Mangekyo I have no answer. Shin doesn't seem like he's physically capable of the kind of empathy needed to consider someone a friend.

[Lord Raziere]

Now where Shin's Mangekyo I have no answer. Shin doesn't seem like he's physically capable of the kind of empathy needed to consider someone a friend.

Yeah thats another problem: he and Orochimaru are those cases where the person lacks empathy for the needed kind of trauma for the power they want, so one assumes that Orochimaru didn't know about that particular requirement to attain godlike power. but Shin Uchiha is like, a leftover Orochimaru experiment, and Shin unlocked the Mangekyo. (which is strange, because that means Orochimaru both had Hashirama cells and enough sharingan for what he wanted, yet didn't immediately put either into himself. but thats a different oddity) so like, either Shin Uchiha suddenly gained empathy when Orochimaru wasn't looking then lost it again, or Orochimaru or Shin figured out a way to achieve the Mangekyo Sharingan through other means- wait.

wait. Shin's thing was that his genetic makeup could make him transplant stuff into him form other people without rejection. maybe the Mangekyo he had was just from some Uchiha that achieved the Mangekyo Sharingan during the Third Shinobi War, got killed by Itachi, and was given to Orochimaru from Danzo for Orochimaru's experiments in exchange for Danzo getting some hashirama cells. given that Shin has a pretty bad mangekyo sharingan of only being be able to telekinetically control weapons, maybe Orochimaru was like "this is clearly a bad harvest, I need the high quality stuff, put this bad mangekyo in Shin" and perhaps Mangekyo are like the divine trees or Rinnegan: you can actually do shortcuts for the process, but you end up with worse less powerful versions of it. that might explain it.

Edit: to be more specific, Shin's Mangekyo might just be Fugaku Uchiha's Mangekyo- perhaps Sasuke's father was 3rd place in the clan he led for good reason.

[Rater202]

The fact that Shin's clones, who were explicitly created using the nerves and stemcells in Shin's teeth as genesock, also have identical Magnekyo suggests to me that Shin was Gene modded rather than having the eyes implanted surgically.

Ad since we know that his extra eyes are functional(due to them moving, being a focus for his powers, and the eyes on Danzo's arm—which was Shin's donated) that supports the idea to a degree.

...Actually, the thought occurs to me: Danzou's Sharingarm was believed to be Shisui's. So maybe Shin was spliced with Shisui's cells and chakra, which included Mangekyo Chakra, but since Shin isn't Shisui he gained his own unique powers?

There's even a thematic similarity between Shin's power and Shisui's: Shisui had one power that was "look at someone and give them an irresistible command" which is thematically similar to "look at a tool and gain complete telekinetic control of it."

[Lord Raziere]

The fact that Shin's clones, who were explicitly created using the nerves and stemcells in Shin's teeth as genestock, also have identical Magnekyo suggests to me that Shin was Gene modded rather than having the eyes implanted surgically.

Ad since we know that his extra eyes are functional(due to them moving, being a focus for his powers, and the eyes on Danzo's arm—which was Shin's donated) that supports the idea to a degree.

...Actually, the thought occurs to me: Danzou's Sharingarm was believed to be Shisuis. So maybe Shin was spliced with Shinsui's cells and chakra, but since Shin isn't Shisui he gained his own unique powers?

I dunno, the Rinnegan is able to see through other eyes without genes and those are shown having rinnegan appearance, this could just be a case where Shin was modified to have a similar ability, and the sympathetic connection could be established through some spilling of blood or something like with jashin techniques, summoning or the Edo tensei. two of which Orochimaru knows. and Ketsuryugan is able to seemingly make people turn into exploding human puppets with a ketsuryugan appearance in their eyes just by injecting chakra by skin contact. it could just be that Shin is just incredibly powerful-given that he also has a space-time jutsu which no other uchiha other than Sasuke can do- and can establish a lot of chakra based/sympathetic connections like that.

[Rater202]

A for why Orochimaru didn't enhance himself with what he had... He might not have been even remotely ethical about his experiments, but he was a man of science.

You don't experiment on yourself if you can help it.

Also... those hundred or so test subjects that all died and turned to trees when he grafted them with Hashirama Cells.

"perfect the process and make sure it's safe for me" or "you know what, this method is tried and true so I'll stick with that."

...And yes, this means that Senko's kind of a bad scientist.

[Lord Raziere]

Huh.

Now that I think about it, Orochimaru DOES kind of avoid most of the problems mad scientists like him tend to run into: he has prepared backups for himself, he makes sure to recruit people that will only loyal be to him because they have no one else, the only time he gets backstabbed is when Sasuke who has ulterior motives for joining him in the first place and isn't like all his other recruits does it, he made sure that his own zombies won't be able to disobey him at the cost of not having their full combat power, he wasn't foiled by a bunch of pre-teen kids, and was so close to the immortality that Kabuto obtained it just by taking Orcohimaru's old notes and taking a few risks with them that paid off until they didn't, and he is still alive despite repeatedly turning into a giant snake, defying all known narrative laws about turning into giant snakes and how that never helps. also he managed to tick off Naruto to the point of fighting him in four tails state and get away with it.

[LaZodiac]

Gonna be honest, everything I've ever seen or heard about GoT made me feel like it was overrated. I did not get the hype.

There's a Halloween episode of the Simpsons where one of the skits is "Sideshow Bob finally kills Bart only to find that his life is empty without a nemesis."

After getting away with the murder, he becomes a professor of literature at a prestigious university... But most of his students are just taking his class as required and are phoning it in.

He's marking a bunch of essays he considers "drivel" and asks out loud "What is this 'Game of Thrones' they're referencing" and I'm gonna be honest that's a mood.

The big draw of Game of Thrones is that for a lot of people, it was their first time experiencing some hard-fantasy style drama, so it lit a fire up most people's asses. There are certainly better works, but this was a good case of "right place, right time, and right new audience".

It's kinda like how Gundam Wing caused Gundam to skyrocket in the west... because a ton of teenage girls were big into it. The lack of quality doesn't matter, what matters is a ton of people saw it, had their first experience with it, and thus want more of it.


That's an odd form of enjoyment.

That may be so, but the fact is it IS impressive, and thus enjoyable to think about from that sort of standpoint.

[Form]

It's kinda like how Gundam Wing caused Gundam to skyrocket in the west... because a ton of teenage girls were big into it. The lack of quality doesn't matter, what matters is a ton of people saw it, had their first experience with it, and thus want more of it.


I remember being disappointed by Gundam Wing's English dubbing. Then again, the English voice actor work of almost any anime dub I've ever seen tends to be subpar. It's often as if they're just reading lines from a piece of paper with as little emotion as possible.

[Rater202]

...So I only ever watched G Gundam.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjPbSe0nRI

Gotta say, gave me a radically skewed idea of what the franchise was about.

...The dub is so bad and yet I can't help but get pumped.

I also watched SD but does that even really count with how radically different it is from literally the rest of the franchise?

[Lord Raziere]

I've watched Gundam Seed first, then Seed Destiny, Gundam 00, tried watching Turn A but have yet to get past first episode, watched.....about I think the first half of Iron-Blooded Orphans? and then watched G Gundam after all that.

and yeah, I feel for anyone who starts with G Gundam as their first gundam then watches something else and sees a grey vs. grey war series unfold before their eyes, quite a tone difference. Me, coming from normal gundam, I was not prepared for the campy goofy mecha designs in G and found them funny.

I'd watch more gundam, but I'm not really sure what to try next and if I can even watch them all online. I can watch old Lupin III episodes fine so....eighties anime being eighties is not a problem for me. maybe I'll watch the original UC stuff, see what the original gundam nonsense is all about.

[LaZodiac]

I remember being disappointed by Gundam Wing's English dubbing. Then again, the English voice actor work of almost any anime dub I've ever seen tends to be subpar. It's often as if they're just reading lines from a piece of paper with as little emotion as possible.

Wing's dub is a little flat at times, but given the characters in question it kinda works, sorta?


...So I only ever watched G Gundam.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QjPbSe0nRI

Gotta say, gave me a radically skewed idea of what the franchise was about.

...The dub is so bad and yet I can't help but get pumped.

I also watched SD but does that even really count with how radically different it is from literally the rest of the franchise?

You take that back monster G Gundam's dub is superlative. It captures the spirit entirely and I love it and it's amazing. Sometimes worse things are better!

Ironically; while mechanically speaking G Gundam is VERY different from other Gundam series, it still manages to hit every basic thing Gundam does, so it isn't as off from the rest of the series as you'd think.


I've watched Gundam Seed first, then Seed Destiny, Gundam 00, tried watching Turn A but have yet to get past first episode, watched.....about I think the first half of Iron-Blooded Orphans? and then watched G Gundam after all that.

and yeah, I feel for anyone who starts with G Gundam as their first gundam then watches something else and sees a grey vs. grey war series unfold before their eyes, quite a tone difference. Me, coming from normal gundam, I was not prepared for the campy goofy mecha designs in G and found them funny.

I'd watch more gundam, but I'm not really sure what to try next and if I can even watch them all online. I can watch old Lupin III episodes fine so....eighties anime being eighties is not a problem for me. maybe I'll watch the original UC stuff, see what the original gundam nonsense is all about.

I also had the misfortune of watching Seed first, but damnit the op is too good it's not fair.

Someone I know is doing a sort of short form essay on what does and doesn't work about each Gundam series, and if it's a good place to start watching. You can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/user/ZorakGoesOn/videos

[Anonymouswizard]

Meanwhile I've never watched more than an episode or two of any Gundam. At a certain point my brain starts screaming :if you've got the technology to do that, you can probably make a better conventional vehicle'.

I mean, I can get past that with a decent story, so I guess maybe I've just seen the bad Gundams? I don't know, I struggle to get engaged by mecha shows. I remember watching the first half or so of Knights of Sidonnia, but can't remember why.

[Rater202]

You take that back monster G Gundam's dub is superlative. It captures the spirit entirely and I love it and it's amazing. Sometimes worse things are better!

I understand that, but lookig back at it some of the deliveries are abit... Odd.

And the dialog is a bit clunky...

Maybe it would be better to say it's the localization that's a bit bad? Like, in the clip I linked "Who, who is this creature?" sounds wrong. He knows who i is. It's Jahal, an Egyptian Gundamn fighter who died and was mummified becuase G Gundamn wasn't good about cultural sensitivity.

What he doesn't know is what he is.

"What is this monster" or "What's the deal with this man" or something along those lines would make more sense.

Likewise, Domon's speech about how Jahal and his Gundam keep not dying is a bit too... Technical considering he's seconds away from exploding with rage at the realization that Jahal is one of his traitorous brother's minions.

And both lines feel just a little wooden.

It's nostalgic and gets the point across, but on a technical level there's room for improvement.

[Lord Raziere]

I also had the misfortune of watching Seed first, but damnit the op is too good it's not fair.

Someone I know is doing a sort of short form essay on what does and doesn't work about each Gundam series, and if it's a good place to start watching. You can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/user/ZorakGoesOn/videos

I wouldn't count watching Seed as a misfortune, personally. I agree, first op is great. dun da-dun da-dun da-dun-dun, dun, do-da-dun, da-dun, da-dun-dun-dun......

[Rater202]

...So the discussion made me go back and look into G Gundamn again and now all I can think about is using the Ultimate Gundamn for ti's orignal purpose and trying to figure out how to solve the problem of "glitches out and decides it needs to kill all humans."

[Fyraltari]

...So the discussion made me go back and look into G Gundamn again and now all I can think about is using the Ultimate Gundamn for ti's orignal purpose and trying to figure out how to solve the problem of "glitches out and decides it needs to kill all humans."

https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/0x0/9/7/294db02fec32799fbe03cb8412bbcb9d0d5f673367eee8c91a f1bdabe42e28/evil-metallurgist.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.911metallurgi st.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2Fevil-metallurgist.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah pretty much. the Ultimate Gundam's glitch was never really elaborated, it was just an excuse for it be evil, so the solution is probably whatever the G Gundam equivalent of consecrating it is. probably something involving punching it with determination and love while yelling an attack name.

[Rater202]

I don't drink. Partially because I have a family history of alcoholism and partly because I just don't like way it tastes.

And yet I find brewing, distilling, winemaking, and mixology as well as the grading and classification of distilled spirits to be fascinating and have memorized the recipes for several cocktails.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't drink. Partially because I have a family history of alcoholism and partly because I just don't like way it tastes.

And yet I find brewing, distilling, winemaking, and mixology as well as the grading and classification of distilled spirits to be fascinating and have memorized the recipes for several cocktails.

You might enjoy watching "How To Drink" on Youtube.

[factotum]

I don't drink. Partially because I have a family history of alcoholism and partly because I just don't like way it tastes.

And yet I find brewing, distilling, winemaking, and mixology as well as the grading and classification of distilled spirits to be fascinating and have memorized the recipes for several cocktails.

I live in a country where guns of any kind are rare and I've never owned one myself, nor had any desire to own one, yet I find them fascinating devices. It's amazing how much ingenuity goes into things that really only have one purpose--to kill as efficiently as possible.

[Rater202]

So my cousin's more or less recovered from the virus. But his baby has it now.

Turns out his wife has, against all advice, not been following quarantine guidelines while my cousin was quarantined. She has no symptoms but the baby tested positive.

[Anonymouswizard]

Had an eye appointment today, now booked in for my first surgery. It's not going to cure my eyes, but at least they won't get any worse

[Peelee]

Had an eye appointment today, now booked in for my first surgery. It's not going to cure my eyes, but at least they won't get any worse
What kind of surgery?

[Anonymouswizard]

What kind of surgery?

Collagen Cross linking. In short sand the eye, but vitamins in there, use light to stimulate collagen growth so it doesn't get more out of shape.

To answer question 2, apparently 2+ days of pain, three months recovery time.

[Peelee]

Collagen Cross linking. In short sand the eye, but vitamins in there, use light to stimulate collagen growth so it doesn't get more out of shape.

To answer question 2, apparently 2+ days of pain, three months recovery time.

Oof, cross linking is fun. Good luck!

[Bartmanhomer]

Collagen Cross linking. In short sand the eye, but vitamins in there, use light to stimulate collagen growth so it doesn't get more out of shape.

To answer question 2, apparently 2+ days of pain, three months recovery time.

Good luck with your eye surgery.

[Fyraltari]

Had an eye appointment today, now booked in for my first surgery. It's not going to cure my eyes, but at least they won't get any worse

Good luck, Anononymouswizard.

[Bartmanhomer]

Housing has been fixing the walls in the living room at my home since Monday and now they're fixing the walls in the bathrooms.

[Rater202]

Had an eye appointment today, now booked in for my first surgery. It's not going to cure my eyes, but at least they won't get any worse

Well wishes.So... Can someone help me understand what the deal with ∀* Gundam is?

So... It is canonically the final series in the Gundam continuity... And every timeline culminates in it. Even if the timeline was created after ∀ Gundam

Is this a "someone screwed up a time-space experiment and now half a dozen different universes are superimposed on top of each other" situation or is it a "humanity keeps getting nuked back to the stone age" situation?

*apparently it's pronounced "Turn A" as in "turn the letter "A" upside down."

[tyckspoon]

Well wishes.So... Can someone help me understand what the deal with ∀* Gundam is?

So... It is canonically the final series in the Gundam continuity... And every timeline culminates in it. Even if the timeline was created after ∀ Gundam

Is this a "someone screwed up a time-space experiment and now half a dozen different universes are superimposed on top of each other" situation or is it a "humanity keeps getting nuked back to the stone age" situation?

*apparently it's pronounced "Turn A" as in "turn the letter "A" upside down."

It's just a cheap copout - Turn A is officially simply way, way, waaaaaaaayyyy in the future. All the other Gundams in the same universe merely happen before it, with enough time between them and Turn A for all of the signs of the other series to have been swallowed by time except for whatever miraculously well preserved artifacts they wished to include as Easter Eggs or more direct references.

[LaZodiac]

Well wishes.So... Can someone help me understand what the deal with ∀* Gundam is?

So... It is canonically the final series in the Gundam continuity... And every timeline culminates in it. Even if the timeline was created after ∀ Gundam

Is this a "someone screwed up a time-space experiment and now half a dozen different universes are superimposed on top of each other" situation or is it a "humanity keeps getting nuked back to the stone age" situation?

*apparently it's pronounced "Turn A" as in "turn the letter "A" upside down."

Slight error; it's only meant to be the end point of the Universal Century, and all the other non UC stuff spins off it. But also that sort of stuff really doesn't matter in the long run, beyond Turn A being a direct sequel to the original UC (Universal Century) stuff.

On that note; the Turn A in the title is meant to be symbolic of the fact that it's turning things on its head. This is not a normal Gundam series, but it still has connections. One very big thing that relates to this is the design of the titular gundam itself; the head is an upside down stylized version of what a regular Gundam's head looks like, and it's entire torso looks like it is backwards from a regular gundam. Loren was supposed to be a girl, another thing leading into this, and the way the story goes leads to an actual end of war. The Gundam is used for genuinely peaceful things like laundry and transport. It is all a story meant to turn Gundam around in some way.

In universe it... certainly means something, but I don't think they mention it. It does lead to the villain dubbing his ultimate weapon of war the Turn X, "because no matter how you look at me, I'll always be me!"

[Rater202]

Slight error; it's only meant to be the end point of the Universal Century, and all the other non UC stuff spins off it. But also that sort of stuff really doesn't matter in the long run, beyond Turn A being a direct sequel to the original UC (Universal Century) stuff.

On that note; the Turn A in the title is meant to be symbolic of the fact that it's turning things on its head. This is not a normal Gundam series, but it still has connections. One very big thing that relates to this is the design of the titular gundam itself; the head is an upside down stylized version of what a regular Gundam's head looks like, and it's entire torso looks like it is backwards from a regular gundam. Loren was supposed to be a girl, another thing leading into this, and the way the story goes leads to an actual end of war. The Gundam is used for genuinely peaceful things like laundry and transport. It is all a story meant to turn Gundam around in some way.

In universe it... certainly means something, but I don't think they mention it. It does lead to the villain dubbing his ultimate weapon of war the Turn X, "because no matter how you look at me, I'll always be me!"

I was under th impression that there were allusions to G Gundam(via the presence of the Windmill Gundam and the Horse Gundam*) and the Wing series(In th memories of new character.) which both predate Turn A and respectively take place in the Future Century and After Colony timelines.

And an event that's described to have happened in the past of Turn A is depicted in Mobile Suit Gundam Double 00, which is not in either timeline.

I've been doing research ever since the Gundam discussion and I'm just trying to figure out if the implantation is "multiversal merge" or "they weren't separate timelines in the first place, it's just that the 'nuke everything back to the stone age' plot point has happened more than once."

*For anyone who never watched G Gundam, there was a horse-shaped Gundam piloted by an actual horse. Not a talking horse. Not a super intelligent horse. Not a horse person... Just a... Just a god damned regular horse.Edit: Semi-Related, the thought just occurred to me that the Devil Gundam from G Gundam is literally cancer.

It grows rapidly, reproduces rapidly, spreahs rapidly, and mutates rapidly. Its a pain in the ass to kill, and just won't die unless you completly destroy it at the root.

[Lord Raziere]

I've been doign researh ever since the gundam dicussion and I'm just trying to figure out if the implaition is "multiversal merge" or "they werne't seprate timelines int he first place, it's just that the 'nuke everything back to the stone age' plot point has happened more than once."


Its the latter.

Gundam doesn't do comic book time travel nonsense like that. Despite the ridiculous of giant mecha in general, Gundam is a real robot series and is hard sci-fi in a lot of ways.

[Anonymouswizard]

Thanks for the well wishes everybody. Eye surgery is scary, especially as they refuse to put you to sleep for it.


I can except anything with giant humanoid robots as hard science. Sure, the use of them might be treated realistically, until you realise they're only useful because the other side also invested in impractical superweapons that shouldn't be able to walk.

[Peelee]

Thanks for the well wishes everybody. Eye surgery is scary, especially as they refuse to put you to sleep for it.

That's going to be most eye surgeries, though. Which is why I haven't had lasik and hope I never get cataracts.

[Anonymouswizard]

That's going to be most eye surgeries, though. Which is why I haven't had lasik and hope I never get cataracts.

Yeah, but there's something a bit mentally off-putting about 'you'll be aware of them sanding your eye'. At least they're not cutting it open, which they have to for cataracts.

Honestly with having both a squint and degenerating corneas I hope this is the last eye problem I develop.

Although I am amused that the one symptom I bought was just me expecting it is apparently real. It turns out you can feel misshapen corneas against your eyelids

[Lord Raziere]

I can except anything with giant humanoid robots as hard science. Sure, the use of them might be treated realistically, until you realise they're only useful because the other side also invested in impractical superweapons that shouldn't be able to walk.

Hey, I said they were ridiculous. Gundam is no exception, its just that most everything else about gundam is hard science:
-no aliens (except one time in 00 but its pretty starfish)
-no FTL
-later gundams don't have Newtypes and downplay the effects of Innovators and Innovades given that their bio-engineered powers don't really change much about the state of war, just mostly makes them berserkers or cyborgs with control over tech
-Minovsky Particles provide the explanation why the mecha are used in first place over just firing long distance missiles at each other because they screw with things that detect/track stuff at long ranges (because if your going to complain about more practical weapons at all you might as well just cut out the planes/tanks middleman and fire the nukes/super lasers at the space colonies/earth governments. Gundam without mecha is not space dogfights, its just Fallout)

[Peelee]

Yeah, but there's something a bit mentally off-putting about 'you'll be aware of them sanding your eye'. At least they're not cutting it open, which they have to for cataracts.

Oh I completely agree. My surgeon didn't do cross linking, so I'm curious - did they drug you up for it to ease your anxiety?

[Rater202]

Don't like half the series in the franchise prominently feature psychics?

Didn't Gundam unicorn establish that a powerful enough psychic, with enough support from psychic enhancing tech, could alter the laws of physics? So, you know... Basically magic?

And then... If all timelines lead to Turn A, then that includes G Gundam, which had Ki attacks and the Power of Love letting you summon a giant pissed-off burger king to punch a heart-shaped hole in your enemies.

Also infinitely regenerating nanomachines that defy the laws of thermodynamics by being able to create matter ex nhilo and are basically intelligent cancer.

It's not that Gundam is a hard scifi setting, it's that most of time people aren't trying hard enough.

[Anonymouswizard]

-Minovsky Particles provide the explanation why the mecha are used in first place over just firing long distance missiles at each other because they screw with things that detect/track stuff at long ranges (because if your going to complain about more practical weapons at all you might as well just cut out the planes/tanks middleman and fire the nukes/super lasers at the space colonies/earth governments. Gundam without mecha is not space dogfights, its just Fallout)

'handwavium means we can ignore reality' doesn't exactly scream hard science to me. Plus I've got the measured force lecture from Starship Troopers stuck in my head now.


Oh I completely agree. My surgeon didn't do cross linking, so I'm curious - did they drug you up for it to ease your anxiety?

Surgery's not for several weeks. It's booked, not performed.

Also sadly it'll be local anesthesia only. So drugged, but not as much as you'd hope. Was hoping that at least after the first they'd inject enough booze for me to lose two days, but apparently I have to get it via the pub

[Lord Raziere]

'handwavium means we can ignore reality' doesn't exactly scream hard science to me. Plus I've got the measured force lecture from Starship Troopers stuck in my head now.


Its not handwavium, its very well detail it even has a fictional mathematical equation for its use reactors:
https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/a31854bc3dccdc849fc42b50a11478febab449ab

This? is the same equation used in classical physics, with the minovsky particle replacing the muon. there is more, its one of the most well-detailed fictional physics ever devised. I accept you not liking anything unrealistic because you don't seem to like ANYTHING remotely unscientific, but do NOT call it handwavium, I'm not accepting that. :smallannoyed:

@ Rater:
I mean it is the first real robot setting, so.....oldness, shifting standards.

you want SUPER realistic and even more down to earth, Armored Trooper Votoms just treats mecha as walking tanks and the mechs you see are basically less cute zakus, which are already considered utilitarian and mookish.

[Peelee]

Surgery's not for several weeks. It's booked, not performed.
Ohhhh, I getcha.

Also sadly it'll be local anesthesia only. So drugged, but not as much as you'd hope. Was hoping that at least after the first they'd inject enough booze for me to lose two days, but apparently I have to get it via the pub
That stinks. Most of the procedures we did outside of the hospital were fairly quick and were in-and-out, but for Lasik everyone got a Valium (or two if they weren't comfortable enough after the first).

[Rater202]

@ Rater:
I mean it is the first real robot setting, so.....oldness, shifting standards.

you want SUPER realistic and even more down to earth, Armored Trooper Votoms just treats mecha as walking tanks and the mechs you see are basically less cute zakus, which are already considered utilitarian and mookish.

I didn't say that. Realistic giant robots are boring.

I'm perfectly happy with Gurren Lagann and Megas XLR.

[tyckspoon]

-Minovsky Particles provide the explanation why the mecha are used in first place over just firing long distance missiles at each other because they screw with things that detect/track stuff at long ranges (because if your going to complain about more practical weapons at all you might as well just cut out the planes/tanks middleman and fire the nukes/super lasers at the space colonies/earth governments. Gundam without mecha is not space dogfights, its just Fallout)

Minovsky Particles are the in-universe explanation for why combat happens at knife-fight ranges, especially when space comes into play and you have to answer why the hugely expanded distances and sight/detection ranges that happen there aren't being exploited. It doesn't explain why the combat tools for those short distance fights should be giant humanoid robots, and it certainly doesn't explain why those robots are literally equipped to have a knife fight! Ultimately the reason for 'why giant robots' in almost any series comes down to 'because they're cool', and, you know, that's a perfectly good reason for itself. You don't have to try to justify that.

[LaZodiac]

I didn't say that. Realistic giant robots are boring.

I'm perfectly happy with Gurren Lagann and Megas XLR.

To be fair VOTOMS is fantastic though. Give it a shot.

Within the realm of mecha series Gundam is very much a Real Robot series, but the deliniation between "real" and "super" is barely a thing. At most it's a nice indicator of what to expect from the unit in Super Robot wars.

[Lord Raziere]

Minovsky Particles are the in-universe explanation for why combat happens at knife-fight ranges, especially when space comes into play and you have to answer why the hugely expanded distances and sight/detection ranges that happen there aren't being exploited. It doesn't explain why the combat tools for those short distance fights should be giant humanoid robots, and it certainly doesn't explain why those robots are literally equipped to have a knife fight! Ultimately the reason for 'why giant robots' in almost any series comes down to 'because they're cool', and, you know, that's a perfectly good reason for itself. You don't have to try to justify that.

Justification is not the point.

The point is respecting the effort, the explanation, the idea of the fictional physics itself. Without it, it'd make even LESS sense and be even LESS consistent. It does not justify it, but I'd rather it have it than not.

[LaZodiac]

Justification is not the point.

The point is respecting the effort, the explanation, the idea of the fictional physics itself. Without it, it'd make even LESS sense and be even LESS consistent. It does not justify it, but I'd rather it have it than not.

A good sort of comparision to make here.

Star Trek is hard sci fi, to Star Wars's soft Sci Fi. Yes, both have "technical" magic, but in Star Trek they have technobabble and pseudo scientific phrasing and are at least trying to make it a sensible, logical, hard factual source of Stuff. In Star Wars, the Force is basically just space magic and can do virtually anything within reason, and the way it works is you believe in yourself and it goes.

Is Gundam's Minovsky Particles nonsense? Absolutely. Is it nonsense that is like, reasonably scientific in execution? Absolutely.

For another Mecha series comparision; compare the logic and logistics of Gundam to Gurren Lagann's "the power of love is what allows you to teleport through hyperspace" and tell me which one is the harder sci fi?

one final thing to just account for this; Gundam Unicorn was an experiment (along the lines of Wing) of "what if we took our real robot show, and introduced a heavy Super Robot thing to it". Gundam Unicorn is basically an Evangelion unit in Gundam- seemingly mundane but once it gets the taste of blood (or in this case, psychic brain waves) it goes into a murder frenzy and starts working in a way that it really shouldn't, much to the horror of everyone witnessing.

[Rater202]

one final thing to just account for this; Gundam Unicorn was an experiment (along the lines of Wing) of "what if we took our real robot show, and introduced a heavy Super Robot thing to it". Gundam Unicorn is basically an Evangelion unit in Gundam- seemingly mundane but once it gets the taste of blood (or in this case, psychic brain waves) it goes into a murder frenzy and starts working in a way that it really shouldn't, much to the horror of everyone witnessing.

Yeah... But Gundam unicorn is still a Universe Century timeline series. Even ignroing Turn A saying everything is in one timeline, it's... Still main timeline canon.

[Lord Raziere]

A good sort of comparision to make here.

Star Trek is hard sci fi, to Star Wars's soft Sci Fi. Yes, both have "technical" magic, but in Star Trek they have technobabble and pseudo scientific phrasing and are at least trying to make it a sensible, logical, hard factual source of Stuff. In Star Wars, the Force is basically just space magic and can do virtually anything within reason, and the way it works is you believe in yourself and it goes.

Is Gundam's Minovsky Particles nonsense? Absolutely. Is it nonsense that is like, reasonably scientific in execution? Absolutely.

For another Mecha series comparision; compare the logic and logistics of Gundam to Gurren Lagann's "the power of love is what allows you to teleport through hyperspace" and tell me which one is the harder sci fi?


Exactly. I have no problem with someone calling TTGL's Spiral Power, or Green Lantern Ring's Willpower, or The Force, or Newtypes, or anything like that "handwavium" while its not the term I prefer, they're basically soft magic and are supposed to be that.

Its hard magic/pseudoscience that I get annoyed at being called "handwavium" because those are harder to design and require more thought put into them. like they have actual consistency and unbreakable laws to what they do. the assumption all authors just do the laziest possible thing when designing a break from reality is just frustrating to encounter and talk to.

[Anonymouswizard]

Its not handwavium, its very well detail it even has a fictional mathematical equation for its use reactors:
https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/a31854bc3dccdc849fc42b50a11478febab449ab

This? is the same equation used in classical physics, with the minovsky particle replacing the muon. there is more, its one of the most well-detailed fictional physics ever devised. I accept you not liking anything unrealistic because you don't seem to like ANYTHING remotely unscientific, but do NOT call it handwavium, I'm not accepting that. :smallannoyed:.

It might be an incredibly detailed handwave, but it's still a handwave. I feel really uncomfortable putting it in the same category as Revelation Space or Blindsight, because it's magic dressed up as science. Having equations doesn't mean you're not having your hand, you're just doing it in a complex way. It might be harder than Star Trek, but Star Trek is pretty much as soft as you can be without being fantasy

I have respect for the effort it takes to write in depth handwavium. I have even more respect for '**** it, I like giant robots'. Let's not get into the fact that the handwave still doesn't justify giant robots instead of, for example, a sphere with engines and missile tubes/particle accelerators.

[Lord Raziere]

I have respect for the effort it takes to write in depth handwavium.

If its in depth, its not handwavium, because handwavium in insulting and implies that it doesn't have effort or depth.

[Anonymouswizard]

If its in depth, its not handwavium, because handwavium in insulting and implies that it doesn't have effort or depth.

In-depth technobabble then. Although I really don't see why calling a handwave a handwave is bad.

I'm not trying to call Gundam bad. I'm trying to explain why it has no appeal to me. The complicated hand waving/technobabble justification is part of that.

[Rater202]

That feel when you have books to read and projects/stories to work on but unrelated ideas that you'll never get around to keep popping into your head and you keep getting distracted by other stuff.

It's not a nice feeling.

[BisectedBrioche]

Strictly speaking, a handwave is meant to literally be "I handwave the issue away".

A quick explanation that doesn't necessarily hold up, but is enough for you, the viewer, to switch on your willing suspension of disbelief and enjoy the show.

I can see an argument that an explanation which is meant to be thought about beyond just "here's something to resolve that, now let's get to the interesting part", and is instead something to enjoy with the rest of the fiction is something else, even if it also serves the purpose of a handwave for the rest of the narrative.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah... But Gundam unicorn is still a Universe Century timeline series. Even ignroing Turn A saying everything is in one timeline, it's... Still main timeline canon.

Not sure what that has to do with anything but then I am very tired. I'll note that the people in charge of Gundam as a series don't really... care, about universal consistency between timelines. Unicorn being a MS Gundam sequel series really only matters for The Prestige (seeing a Zaku 2 in a museum, establishment of some rules regarding Newtypes) and my favorite character in Unicorn; Marida Cruz and the Quad Wing Kshatriya. Aside from those factors the fact that this takes place in UC isn't really important or utilized at all. It's a... double edged sword of "it's good they don't do that since they can be more creative with things" and "it's bad they do this because trying to elevate a series by needless references to the past series is kinda lame. Do something with it if you're gonna do it!".


That feel when you have books to read and projects/stories to work on but unrelated ideas that you'll never get around to keep popping into your head and you keep getting distracted by other stuff.

It's not a nice feeling.

Ever since publishing my book I've found I've slowly lost the ability to read anything in a way that lets me fully enjoy it. There are somethings here and there that I can get into and just enjoy, but I've become too self critical and self conscious to enjoy anything anymore. It sucks- and as a result has killed a lot of my motivation as well. I'm getting through it, I'm way better about it then I was initially, but it sucks.

Which is to say; I feel your pain

[Lord Raziere]

Ever since publishing my book I've found I've slowly lost the ability to read anything in a way that lets me fully enjoy it. There are somethings here and there that I can get into and just enjoy, but I've become too self critical and self conscious to enjoy anything anymore. It sucks- and as a result has killed a lot of my motivation as well. I'm getting through it, I'm way better about it then I was initially, but it sucks.

Which is to say; I feel your pain

Okay, I got a solution, its going to sound crazy, but hear me out:
you go find some bad fan fiction or something of similar low quality, you force yourself to read it, see every flaw in it, every mistake and so on. Its going to be painful, and horrifying.

when you come out of it....you'll have something to compare anything to that horrible thing, as a reminder that no matter what your viewing, it is not that, and thus find enjoyment in them again, knowing what true anti-quality is. its all about perspective: your seeing the seams in the fabric that were always there, you can't fix that, so you have to fix your perspective by viewing someone screw up so badly that you feel better by comparison knowing that your not as horrible, and thus view the seams you see in a positive light as being well-crafted because they don't make the same mistakes and more well-woven.

[LaZodiac]

Okay, I got a solution, its going to sound crazy, but hear me out:
you go find some bad fan fiction or something of similar low quality, you force yourself to read it, see every flaw in it, every mistake and so on. Its going to be painful, and horrifying.

when you come out of it....you'll have something to compare anything to that horrible thing, as a reminder that no matter what your viewing, it is not that, and thus find enjoyment in them again, knowing what true anti-quality is. its all about perspective: your seeing the seams in the fabric that were always there, you can't fix that, so you have to fix your perspective by viewing someone screw up so badly that you feel better by comparison knowing that your not as horrible, and thus view the seams you see in a positive light as being well-crafted because they don't make the same mistakes and more well-woven.

That's a tricky prospect. Some things, like RWBY, elicit the correct response you'd be looking for here.

Others make me realize that even this unbelievable unrefined trash-fire is more popular than I'll ever be, so why even bother anymore.

[2D8HP]

[…{

[…]
Surgery's not for several weeks. It's booked, not performed.

Also sadly it'll be local anesthesia only. So drugged, but not as much as you'd hope. Was hoping that at least after the first they'd inject enough booze for me to lose two days, but apparently I have to get it via the pub

That stinks. Most of the procedures we did outside of the hospital were fairly quick and were in-and-out, but for Lasik everyone got a Valium (or two if they weren't comfortable enough after the first).


All good luck to you Anonymouswizard, for what little it’s worth (based on my eye surgeries in the 1990’s) that second Valium makes a BIG difference.

[factotum]

Others make me realize that even this unbelievable unrefined trash-fire is more popular than I'll ever be, so why even bother anymore.

Trying not to be too harsh here...but did you start this whole writing game because you thought you'd be massively successful? Because you'd be the next JK Rowling? Or because it was something you genuinely enjoy and would like to do more of? Because one of those reasons is a far better reason to do it than the other one, I leave it to the reader to decide which.

[LaZodiac]

Trying not to be too harsh here...but did you start this whole writing game because you thought you'd be massively successful? Because you'd be the next JK Rowling? Or because it was something you genuinely enjoy and would like to do more of? Because one of those reasons is a far better reason to do it than the other one, I leave it to the reader to decide which.

Because it's genuinely something I enjoy and would like to do more of. I just also want people to like... read it. A few people have, and I am happy about that, it's just... discouraging, I guess.

I wasn't expecting overnight super success but I also wasn't expecting this. I also wasn't expecting myself to BE this bitter about it. I need to just... get over it, and I usually can! It's just tricky sometimes.

[Form]

Because it's genuinely something I enjoy and would like to do more of. I just also want people to like... read it. A few people have, and I am happy about that, it's just... discouraging, I guess.

I wasn't expecting overnight super success but I also wasn't expecting this. I also wasn't expecting myself to BE this bitter about it. I need to just... get over it, and I usually can! It's just tricky sometimes.

It's ok to be disappointed. You don't have to shrug off everything instantly.

[Anonymouswizard]

All good luck to you Anonymouswizard, for what little it’s worth (based on my eye surgeries in the 1990’s) that second Valium makes a BIG difference.

My worry isn't the day of the surgery, but the day or after. I haven't been told if I'll get anaesthetic to use at home.

But thanks for encouragement!

As for writing, my current plan for getting people to read my work is to get a short story or eight in a magazine. Eventually somebody will read one out of boredom.

[Lord Raziere]

That's a tricky prospect. Some things, like RWBY, elicit the correct response you'd be looking for here.

Others make me realize that even this unbelievable unrefined trash-fire is more popular than I'll ever be, so why even bother anymore.

Nope. your thinking too popular, too well made. anything officially published by anyone, is not bad enough for what I'm talking about.

[Rater202]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/digimon/images/6/6a/Tankdramon_b.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/320?cb=20100507100008Ohdon't mind me, I'm just a dracomorphic embodiment of mechanized warfare... Also, I can somehow fly without wings or rockets.

[enderlord99]

Others make me realize that even this unbelievable unrefined trash-fire is more popular than I'll ever be, so why even bother anymore.

I don't know what makes you so certain that you'll never sell even a single copy of any of your books, but I can assure you that's false.

[LaZodiac]

Nope. your thinking too popular, too well made. anything officially published by anyone, is not bad enough for what I'm talking about.

Eh... arguable. I had a specific example in my brain when I said that.


https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/digimon/images/6/6a/Tankdramon_b.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/320?cb=20100507100008Ohdon't mind me, I'm just a dracomorphic embodiment of mechanized warfare... Also, I can somehow fly without wings or rockets.

God, Digimon designs are a special kind of goofy.


I don't know what makes you so certain that you'll never sell even a single copy of any of your books, but I can assure you that's false.

I mean I've sold a few, but it's just something that pokes into my skin like a thistle sometimes. This idea that I'm not actually good at this, that no one cares, that I'll be forgotten.

[Rater202]

God, Digimon designs are a special kind of goofy.
That's not even the half of it. the main guns shoot miniature nukes with a blast radius of 30 km.

...But no range is given. So for all, we know this thing could be nuking itself every time it shoots the main gun.

This idea that I'm not actually good at this, that no one cares, that I'll be forgotten.I'm pretty sure everyone feels like this.

Anyway, a lot of best-selling books get that way because the author or publisher ordered a bunch of copies themselves to get them on a list of high-selling books.

Or at least that's what I've heard.

Don't feel bad because you can't cheat the system.

[enderlord99]

I mean I've sold a few

Well, you are not doomed to be less popular than the people you're already more popular then.

[Form]

I imagine any new artist trying to make their entrance is going to find that very difficult. You're starting out with zero name recognition after all and without any already established work under your belt. And of course not everyone gets to to break through.


As for writing, my current plan for getting people to read my work is to get a short story or eight in a magazine. Eventually somebody will read one out of boredom.

I think that H.P. Lovecraft and some of his contemporaries did the same thing: publishing short stories in pulp fiction magazine. I don't know if they actually started out that way, but it makes sense if they did.


That's not even the half of it. the main guns shoot miniature nukes with a blast radius of 30 km.

...But no range is given. So for all, we know this thing could be nuking itself every time it shoots the main gun.
I'm pretty sure everyone feels like this.


This reminds me of the Davy Crockett nuclear mortar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)). It's the shortest range nuclear weapon I'm aware of. It's, erhm, let's say delightfully insane.



Anyway, a lot of best-selling books get that way because the author or publisher ordered a bunch of copies themselves to get them on a list of high-selling books.

Or at least that's what I've heard.

This is the first time I've heard of this. Where did you get this notion from?

[Rater202]

I have a couple of different sources—including the existence of a firm that exists more or less to facilitate bulk ordering your own book—but I'm having the damndest time finding an article that isn't either hidden behind a paywall or on a website with questionable cookie policies.

[Fyraltari]

Anyway, a lot of best-selling books get that way because the author or publisher ordered a bunch of copies themselves to get them on a list of high-selling books.

Or at least that's what I've heard.

As someone studying publishing right now (as in I am currently in class), I would like a source for that claim that goes directly against all I know about the economics of that market.

[Rater202]

As someone studying publishing right now (as in I am currently in class), I would like a source for that claim that goes directly against all I know about the economics of that market.Hve you heard of ResultSource Inc? It's a corporate firm whose business model is "charge the author a couple of thousand dollars to make multiple orders of the author's own book."

Or at least it was. The article's a few years out of date.

The point is... You don't run a business doing that if there's not a market for it.

I've also found three examples, one from 2020 and two from 2017, about people either bulk ordering their own book or having people do it on their behalf outside of that firm, but the article is on a website with questionable cookie policies.

"A lot" may have been an exaggeration.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think that H.P. Lovecraft and some of his contemporaries did the same thing: publishing short stories in pulp fiction magazine. I don't know if they actually started out that way, but it makes sense if they did.

From what I've heard, back then you'd sell short stories to a magazine, then eventually serialised novels, then potentially just publish novels in their standalone form. Not 100% sure how common that actually was, but it makes sense from a 'get vaguely known' perspective.


@Rater, I think the issue is less 'it doesn't happen' and more 'it doesn't help'. Creating a fake demand for your book is a known phenomenon but I'm fairly certain that most authors can't reach a bestsellers list that way without going massively in debt.

As for why there's at least one company doing it? The same reason vanity publishers* exist: they make money from it, damn the poor unfortunate author. Maybe it's helped a couple of people get known, apparently there have been people who've gained success from vanity published books. It doesn't mean it's made any significant impact.

* Because self publishing via Amazon or the like, while requiring the exact same amount of self promotion, at least doesn't IIRC cost the author anything.

[Rater202]

I think my "end goal" for transhumanism is that my "real body" would be fully sedentary somewhere(dragon sleeping in a cave/living city/living island/living planet) while I have one or more proxy bodies that I am in constant, truly instant communication with and that are at the same time autonomous and yet an extension of myself and fully subservient to me. Ideally in ways where the real me and back up and revive the proxies if something happens to them.

And maybe a dedicated avatar body...

...I think I want to be the Zerg.

[Keltest]

I think my "end goal" for transhumanism is that my "real body" would be fully sedentary somewhere(dragon sleeping in a cave/living city/living island/living planet) while I have one or more proxy bodies that I am in constant, truly instant communication with and that are at the same time autonomous and yet an extension of myself and fully subservient to me. Ideally in ways where the real me and back up and revive the proxies if something happens to them.

And maybe a dedicated avatar body...

...I think I want to be the Zerg.

The Overmind did have it pretty good, until the entire rest of existence decided that he, specifically, needed to be killed as hard as possible.

[TwilightSandwic]

I think I would just like having multiple different-looking bodies I can switch between like changing clothes. Maybe some days I'm fine with the way I am now but other days I want to look totally different. And right now changing the way your body looks always takes so much time and effort.
Oh, and being free from aging, I am totally on board for the S.S. Immortality is Awesome

[tyckspoon]

As someone studying publishing right now (as in I am currently in class), I would like a source for that claim that goes directly against all I know about the economics of that market.

It's known to be done for books where somebody wants to try to argue for a particular theory or opinion. You write your book laying out your case for, I dunno, Who is Best Pony. Then you go to your Pony Fanclub which is very deeply invested in agreeing with you about Best Pony, and you and the other like-thinking Fanclubs get together and order a hundred thousand copies of your book (which is very likely more copies of the book than it would otherwise ever have 'naturally' sold.) Now you get a couple of things happening - the publisher is happy, they get sales and are more likely to purchase and promote more books about Pony. The author potentially gets better income, so they can write Best Pony 2: The Case for Bester Pony. And, significantly, you get what is essentially a lot of free advertising, because all those sales mean the recommendation algorithms start noticing it - Amazon starts putting your book on its lists of 'Popular In This Category' and the 'You may also be interested in...' suggestions when you go to look at items. Google shows it as a high priority search result because there's obviously a lot of interest. You get to put 'New York Times Bestseller!' on the jacket blurbs, and the (ever shrinking but still present) retailers for physical books have to order some so they can stock their Bestsellers feature case.

The whole thing is meant to raise the profile of the book's argument, and takes advantage of a common thought fallacy where people conflate 'something is commercially successful' with 'something is authoritative.' The actual books tend to get given away to people who don't want them and destroyed, discarded, or end up with rows and rows of them jamming up the shelves of thrift stores, because the whole point of the process is to create a false impression that the book's argument is much more far reaching and convincing than it really is (because why else would so many people buy it?) Nobody actually wants a hundred thousand copies of Best Pony.

..on a smaller scale, doing similar self-orders could be seen as a kind of advertising spend, because internet selling is a place where success breeds success - you try to kind of prime the systems to recommend your product, and in books in particular it really does not take a lot to get a notable bump in a sales rankings (webcomic artists, for example, somewhat frequently report that their books reach like top three in the Comics category when they release a new collection.)

[Peelee]

It's known to be done for books where somebody wants to try to argue for a particular theory or opinion.

And has a lot of money or friends with a lot of money. That part is arguably the most important. I've known several examples (none of which I can name here even if I wanted to) and it was virtually always a case of "rich and famous ass who wants to brag about their books "bestselling" status or other accolades based on sales numbers.

[factotum]

The Overmind did have it pretty good, until the entire rest of existence decided that he, specifically, needed to be killed as hard as possible.

Kerrigan probably had the advantage there--same overmind powers but she's reasonably mobile herself and can escape!

[Peelee]

Because it's genuinely something I enjoy and would like to do more of. I just also want people to like... read it. A few people have, and I am happy about that, it's just... discouraging, I guess.

I wasn't expecting overnight super success but I also wasn't expecting this. I also wasn't expecting myself to BE this bitter about it. I need to just... get over it, and I usually can! It's just tricky sometimes.

Honestly? It's like winning the lottery. Everybody knows the really big name authors like Stephen King or Margaret Atwood or Neil Gaiman. And if you go to a bookstore like Books-A-Million then there are hundreds of shelves with thousands of titles by people youve never heard of. But even that lot is built upon the hundreds of thousands who didn't even make it to the bookstore shelves.

My dad founded a publishing company that focused on a remarkably niche segment of academia. Textbooks in postgrad-level study, in an incredibly obscure field that you've almost certainly never even heard of. I used to joke that he started his own company so he wouldn't need to go to anyone else to publish, but IIRC he had over hundred titles by dozens of authors, only nine of them his own (he was also working on three others when he died. Just a fun fact there. Man was a workhorse and absolutely brilliant), so it was reasonably successful - at least, by the standards of a hyper-specialized area of study.

Anyway. My brothers and I were corralled into helping from time to time, and every so often I answered the phone. At least once, I spoke to someone trying to publish something through us, which was not in any way academic, and was only related in the broadest possible sense of the overall topic. It was painfully obvious that they just tossed "[subject] publisher" into a search engine, found us, and promptly did zero research about the company.

Now, this was before the days of self-publishing, but even then people like that were trying to get their stuff out there by any means possible, leading to a fairly flooded market. After self-publishing? The market is well and truly swamped. It's like gambling in a casino - don't expect to win anything, and if you do, it's almost certainly not going to be enough to even pay for the trip. But you're almost certainly not going to get the jackpot on that slot machine that's giving out a Lexus, much less the one with a million-dollar payout.

It's a jungle, and it's only gotten harder and harder to stand out. The best thing to do if you want to write is to be happy with what you've written and let the chips fall where they may.

[Fyraltari]

Hve you heard of ResultSource Inc? It's a corporate firm whose business model is "charge the author a couple of thousand dollars to make multiple orders of the author's own book."

Habing looked (very little) into that it seems more like "charge the author a couple hundred thousand dollars..." Which already makes more sense. It's a vanity buy-out for millionaires to end up in the last few places of the best-sellers list.

Honestly? It's like winning the lottery. Everybody knows the really big name authors like Stephen King or Margaret Atwood or Neil Gaiman. And if you go to a bookstore like Books-A-Million then there are hundreds of shelves with thousands of titles by people youve never heard of. But even that lot is built upon the hundreds of thousands who didn't even make it to the bookstore shelves.

There's an axiom among publishers over here: "Out of ten books you'll put out, one wi be succesful, four will pay for themselves, and five will lose you money. You need the one to pay for the five."

And do keep in mind that that is in France, where, due to the 1981 One Price Law, the literary market is far healthier than what is common in the Anglosphere.

[LaZodiac]

Thanks for the advice and kind words, all. I think it helped.

I guess for me, ultimately, the issue is that I'm not satisfied with myself. It's really hard to just... let the chips stay where they lay, with stuff like this. I look at others who've made it big on stuff that seems so... banal and stupid, and I look at the effort I've put in and wonder what even was the point. I start to feel like maybe my brain is out of whack- that I'm wrong, that the people who do like my writing are wrong, that I'm not actually good at this and don't know what is and isn't good, and that I should just give up.

But I won't. I'm... going t try and be satisfied with where I am. It's okay.

[IthilanorStPete]

Habing looked (very little) into that it seems more like "charge the author a couple hundred thousand dollars..." Which already makes more sense. It's a vanity buy-out for millionaires to end up in the last few places of the best-sellers list.


There's an axiom among publishers over here: "Out of ten books you'll put out, one wi be succesful, four will pay for themselves, and five will lose you money. You need the one to pay for the five."

And do keep in mind that that is in France, where, due to the 1981 One Price Law, the literary market is far healthier than what is common in the Anglosphere.

Before I read your last paragraph, I was wondering what kind of market you were in that had such a high rate of books earning back their costs. :smalltongue:

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everyone. I got wonderful news to tell my Pokemon Let's Go fan-fiction story made ranking #1 in Wattpad. :smile:

[Rater202]

Thanks for the advice and kind words, all. I think it helped.

I guess for me, ultimately, the issue is that I'm not satisfied with myself. It's really hard to just... let the chips stay where they lay, with stuff like this. I look at others who've made it big on stuff that seems so... banal and stupid, and I look at the effort I've put in and wonder what even was the point. I start to feel like maybe my brain is out of whack- that I'm wrong, that the people who do like my writing are wrong, that I'm not actually good at this and don't know what is and isn't good, and that I should just give up.

But I won't. I'm... going t try and be satisfied with where I am. It's okay.

*offers hugs*

I know this feeling well.

...So back in middle school, one day we were visited by the author who wrote a couple of our required reading books. He told us that he never reads his own books once he's done writing, because every time he tries he ends up marking through them becuase he's not satisfied with the finished product

I think a lack of satisfaction, in some form, is part of being a creative type.

...Or maybe just part of being human?

[LaZodiac]

*offers hugs*

I know this feeling well.

...So back in middle school, one day we were visited by the author who wrote a couple of our required reading books. He told us that he never reads his own books once he's done writing, because every time he tries he ends up marking through them becuase he's not satisfied with the finished product

I think a lack of satisfaction, in some form, is part of being a creative type.

...Or maybe just part of being human?

Thank you, Rater. That means a lot. *hugs*

I channeled my despair energy into making this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508732197231132674/931737217779523604/unknown.png

[Rater202]

Thank you, Rater. That means a lot. *hugs*

I channeled my despair energy into making this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508732197231132674/931737217779523604/unknown.png

Art is good.How often in fiction do miraculously efficient/literally perpetual sources of energy actually get used for... Anything that would be a worthwhile use of that technology?

Whenever they come up, they're either used as handwaves for the plot to happen, some kind of impractical device, or something so ridiculously mundane that... why even bother?

[HalfTangible]

Art is good.How often in fiction do miraculously efficient/literally perpetual sources of energy actually get used for... Anything that would be a worthwhile use of that technology?

Whenever they come up, they're either used as handwaves for the plot to happen, some kind of impractical device, or something so ridiculously mundane that... why even bother?

The problem with almost any form of UNLIMITED POWER is that if you actually use it the entire narrative becomes irrelevant. Who cares if your MC has super strength when I can make a laser with my unlimited battery (which will of course be more powerful than her) and shoot her with it?

If Freeza, Vegeta, Piccolo, or whoever actually managed to make themselves immortal with the Dragon Balls the rest of the story doesn't happen. Vegeta doesn't need to begrudgingly go to Earth so that he can fight Goku again. Piccolo either waits so he can get a second wish to restore his youth, or it gets restored as part of the immortality wish and Goku dies. Garlic Jr. gets the immortality wish but needs to be sent to another dimension TWICE because even the DB universe understands that he does not work as a character in this universe.

Either that or it ends up not actually being a source of ultimate power so the heroes can still overcome it, making the build-up for it feel pointless. (oh hello RvB Zero what're you doing there)

[Rater202]

Piccolo either waits so he can get a second wish to restore his youth, or it gets restored as part of the immortality wish

This is basically what happened. You'll note that prior to actually making the wish, King Piccolo is talking about getting eternal youth rather than just being made young again.

Yeah. I don't know what's up. I don't know if the exact wording of his wish didn't translate well or if there's a localization mistake, but apparently, his actual wish was to "become eternally youthful" and he became youthful as a by-product.

(Supplementary materials indicate that Piccolo junior is also eternally youthful due to being his father's reincarnation.)

But regardless I'm not exactly talking about that. I'm talking like... Okay, Dr. Gero invented perpetual energy and used it to make killer robots. The idea of machines that never run out of energy is treated as preposterous by the protagonists when they find out, indicating that perpetual energy is kind of a big deal.

Bulma later goes the schematics for two of those and tinkers around with a third.

17 and 18 are almost entirely organic, with only three confirmed mechanical implants, and yet Bulma was able to use what she learned from studying those to both retro engineer the over-ride switch that 17 had destroyed earlier, and also repair the severely damaged android 16, which confirms that the schematics have at least some information about how the mechanical parts were constructed.

At no point is there any indication that she tried to retro-engineer the generators. On the contrary, in Dragon Ball super she's shown trying to manufacture a hyper-efficient fuel source which... She wouldn't need it if she had perpetual energy.

[Form]

Thank you, Rater. That means a lot. *hugs*

I channeled my despair energy into making this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508732197231132674/931737217779523604/unknown.png

I see someone else has discovered the joy of lofi girl radio as well. :smallwink:

Also, oh hey, new let's play video on your channel. I should have a look. The Mega Man Battle Network video was relaxing to watch as well.

[LaZodiac]

I see someone else has discovered the joy of lofi girl radio as well. :smallwink:

Also, oh hey, new let's play video on your channel. I should have a look. The Mega Man Battle Network video was relaxing to watch as well.

A friend of mine found a Lofi Radio Girl Generator and I decided to have some fun with it.

Ooh, nice. Glad you enjoyed, and I hope you enjoy further. Today is a stream day, so we'll be doing more Sly 2!

[HalfTangible]

This is basically what happened.

No it isn't. Piccolo doesn't wish for immortality, even though he very easily could've, and he has no interest in doing so now that he has his youth again (he *blows Shenron up* ffs). This isn't speculative.

And the Androids, well... I'm not sure if this is confirmed directly anywhere, but we're told that the Androids in our timeline are much stronger than the ones in Trunks' timeline. That implies to me that whatever Gero did to give the Androids power was designed to become weaker and weaker over time, likely so that they'd be easier for Cell to capture/eat. The fact that this doesn't (appear to) happen in the main timeline further suggests that that was a function of the bomb that Bulma removed from 16 and Krillin wished out of 17 and 18.

[Rater202]

No it isn't. Piccolo doesn't wish for immortality, even though he very easily could've, and he has no interest in doing so now that he has his youth again (he *blows Shenron up* ffs). This isn't speculative.I beleive you misunderstood.

Note how I only quoted one sentence of your post.

Replace "immortality" with "eternal youth" and that one sentence is literally what happened in the source material.

I felt the need to clarify that point, since the dub kind of flubs it. That's all.


And the Androids, well... I'm not sure if this is confirmed directly anywhere, but we're told that the Androids in our timeline are much stronger than the ones in Trunks' timeline. That implies to me that whatever Gero did to give the Androids power was designed to become weaker and weaker over time, likely so that they'd be easier for Cell to capture/eat. The fact that this doesn't (appear to) happen in the main timeline further suggests that that was a function of the bomb that Bulma removed from 16 and Krillin wished out of 17 and 18.

This is a common misconception: Trunks says they're stronger, but in the future timeline trunks never fought the Androids at full power.

The future androids never used more than half of their power while fighting Gohan or Trunks, excepting the time they finally killed future Gohan becuase fighting him got more annoying than fun, and Trunks was out cold that entire time.

In the main timeline, the Androids are only just becoming free to use their godlike powers. They're basically just teen delinquents who suddenly got a lot more power to do what they want, after having been effectively enslaved. They're still testing their limits.

This, combined with the Dragon Team being much stronger in the main timeline due to the warning and thus doing more than maintenance and basic improvement training...

I mean, it's not like they have detectable power levels. He's guessing based on performance.

And considering that Cell was using the androids to fuel his metabolism in order to undergo metamorphosis, the androids getting weaker over time so he can more easily absorb them makes no sense. He'd just absorb more humans or random wildlife until he was strong enough.

[Lord Raziere]

And the Androids, well... I'm not sure if this is confirmed directly anywhere, but we're told that the Androids in our timeline are much stronger than the ones in Trunks' timeline. That implies to me that whatever Gero did to give the Androids power was designed to become weaker and weaker over time, likely so that they'd be easier for Cell to capture/eat. The fact that this doesn't (appear to) happen in the main timeline further suggests that that was a function of the bomb that Bulma removed from 16 and Krillin wished out of 17 and 18.

....That would explain why they're not as strong in Trunks timeline better than "Gero designed them differently because of rising power levels in this timeline", I do admit. the bombs probably draining their energy to store it up into one big explosion while making them more vulnerable to Cell over time would make a lot of sense.

which of course, ignores of why not do the actual sensible actions of just putting the two infinite energy engines in cell to begin with or just making two more to put into him, but thats a conundrum for another day.

[Rater202]

which of course, ignores of why not do the actual sensible actions of just putting the two infinite energy engines in cell to begin with or just making two more to put into him, but thats a conundrum for another day.

Cell was created by genetically engineering a host organism and then fusing the stolen cells of Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Frieza, and King Cold* to it. The perpetual energy engineers, meanwhile, are fully mechanical.

There's really no way to integrate them into Cell directly. Even if you implanted them into Cell surgically, subjecting him to the same processes that turned 17 and 18 into androids, his regenerative healing factor might reject the implants and force them from his body, if it didn't just kick in during the surgery.

Likewise, it's demonstrated when he tries to absorb android 16 that he can't absorb inorganic matter: Note that when Cell absorbs random humans, he essentially liquefies them and slurps up the goo, but when he absorbs 17 and 18 he swallows them whole and they seem to be more or less unharmed inside him—with 18 being thrown up when Gohan gave cell a hard enough gut punch and 17 being confirmed to have only been killed when cell self-destructed, not when he was absorbed(which makes him respawning on the island where Cell absorbed him when he was wished back instead of in other world near the remains of King Kai's planet a bit of a plothole.)

So just leaving two spare generators out primed to be strong enough for Cell's needs is also a go.

If I had to hazard a guess, did not have the means to provide Cell with a strong enough metabolism to metamorphose into his perfect form, so he was designed to absorb the two mostly organic androids with infinite energy and use them as batteries. The two that Gero had no use for since they were rebellious, hated his guts, and that he couldn't control beyond forcing them to go to sleep due to something about the perpetual energy generators interfering with how the behavior control implants worked.

Like, I don't think 17 and 18 were designed to be absorbed all along, I think this was just recycling.

*The anime states or implies that he also has the cells of Krillin, Gohan, and Nappa.

[HalfTangible]

....That would explain why they're not as strong in Trunks timeline better than "Gero designed them differently because of rising power levels in this timeline", I do admit. the bombs probably draining their energy to store it up into one big explosion while making them more vulnerable to Cell over time would make a lot of sense.

which of course, ignores of why not do the actual sensible actions of just putting the two infinite energy engines in cell to begin with or just making two more to put into him, but thats a conundrum for another day.

Cell was a final contingency plan, something Gero put into place in case all his other plans failed. 17 and 18 were supposed to kill Goku, but when they turned on Gero, he had to change tact. Hence building Android 19 as a fully mechanical and loyal bot, and turning himself into Android 20.

He was also an evil guy, so he probably made 17 and 18 the sources of Cell's perfect form specifically because they betrayed and tried to kill him. No point in wasting a good opportunity for some wanton cruelty, right?

[dafrca]

Random Thought: I like to read people's opinions until they insist their opinions are facts. Then it ruins the fun of reading their thoughts and ideas for me. :smalleek:

[2D8HP]

[…]
As for writing, my current plan for getting people to read my work is to get a short story or eight in a magazine. Eventually somebody will read one out of boredom.


I imagine any new artist trying to make their entrance is going to find that very difficult. You're starting out with zero name recognition after all and without any already established work under your belt. And of course not everyone gets to to break through.



I think that H.P. Lovecraft and some of his contemporaries did the same thing: publishing short stories in pulp fiction magazine. I don't know if they actually started out that way, but it makes sense if they did.
[…]



From what I've heard, back then you'd sell short stories to a magazine, then eventually serialised novels, then potentially just publish novels in their standalone form. Not 100% sure how common that actually was, but it makes sense from a 'get vaguely known' perspective.
[…]


I’ve bought and read a novel that I first read chapters of that were published on pulp paper as short stories in the late 1990’s and early 21st century in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, so not just something that happened in Lovecraft’s lifetime.

[Rater202]

Does anyone else ever fantasize about being a powerful sorcerer with like a dozen different familiars that live in your robes? Like, it's implausible that that many creatures could fit in there. Like anyone who sees you deploy them assumes that either your robes are bigger on the inside or that you're actually a dozen magical animals in a human suit.

[Keltest]

Does anyone else ever fantasize about being a powerful sorcerer with like a dozen different familiars that live in your robes? Like, it's implausible that that many creatures could fit in there. Like anyone who sees you deploy them assumes that either your robes are bigger on the inside or that you're actually a dozen magical animals in a human suit.

... no, i suspect that is, if not a unique fantasy, then at least one shared by an extreme minority of people.

[Lord Raziere]

Does anyone else ever fantasize about being a powerful sorcerer with like a dozen different familiars that live in your robes? Like, it's implausible that that many creatures could fit in there. Like anyone who sees you deploy them assumes that either your robes are bigger on the inside or that you're actually a dozen magical animals in a human suit.

powerful sorcerer yes.

summon many things to be your friendly companions yes. (I am a long time pokemon fan after all)

said companions living in my robes.......not really. thats some Aburame/Orochimaru kind of creepiness to me at least.

personally I'm more of a fan of the direction of "alien lesbian race of elemental warriors that is okay with willingly signing contracts with me to become apart of my battle harem I can summon that they can opt out of at any time" kind of fantasy, but thats just me.

[Rater202]

... no, i suspect that is, if not a unique fantasy, then at least one shared by an extreme minority of people.
I cannot be the only one who likes the aesthetic of a snake sliding out of your sleeves or a cat leaping out of your neck hole to sneak attak someone.

Though I admit it would require a lot of pockets. Probably magic pockets.

Or the familiars literally being part of you becuase you're chaos incarnate or made of a shadowy ethereal substance.

personally I'm more of a fan of the direction of "alien lesbian race of elemental warriors that is okay with willingly signing contracts with me to become apart of my battle harem I can summon that they can opt out of at any time" kind of fantasy, but thats just me.

So... Gems?

So I went back and looked at the early episodes of Steven Universe again... And noticed that Pearl was covering her mouth when she was at the battlefield crying in Rose's Scabbard.

[Lord Raziere]

So... Gems?


No, thats the DBZ lesbian fusion fantasy so that I can become a permanent fusion with all the lovers involved, but with the modification is our shared mind acts like its a house we live in so that the mental individual selves are all in there, but on the outside we function as a single being.

this fantasy is more like pokemon, except they're all girls who are sapient enough to know what they getting into, there is no pokeballs, its just a signed magical contract and teleportation to me, -possibly each other if we need to teleport to THEM- when needed traveling having adventures, fighting things and falling in love and they can decide to leave whenever.

[Rater202]

No, thats the DBZ lesbian fusion fantasy so that I can become a permanent fusion with all the lovers involved, but with the modification is our shared mind acts like its a house we live in so that the mental individual selves are all in there, but on the outside we function as a single being.
So... Flourite?

this fantasy is more like pokemon, except they're all girls who are sapient enough to know what they getting into, there is no pokeballs, its just a signed magical contract and teleportation to me, -possibly each other if we need to teleport to THEM- when needed traveling having adventures, fighting things and falling in love and they can decide to leave whenever.

Okay, yeah, I can see the appeal.

[Lord Raziere]

So... Flourite?


Only if your talking about the least ideal form of it.

[HalfTangible]

personally I'm more of a fan of the direction of "alien lesbian race of elemental warriors that is okay with willingly signing contracts with me to become apart of my battle harem I can summon that they can opt out of at any time" kind of fantasy, but thats just me.

.... oddly specific

[Lord Raziere]

.... oddly specific

Well I did say that it was just me. being an individual, turns out is all about being highly, oddly specific sometimes where it matters, but often times where it doesn't, which is actually where it matters the most.

[Rater202]

being an individual, turns out is all about being highly, oddly specific sometimes

Like my many oddly specific but mutually explusive desires to achieve a state where I can be blasted to subatomic particles but still be alive and eventually reconstitute myself with no loss of memory.

[Keltest]

So I went back and looked at the early episodes of Steven Universe again... And noticed that Pearl was covering her mouth when she was at the battlefield crying in Rose's Scabbard.

That may or may not be significant. Some people just do that when theyre really upset.

[TwilightSandwic]

If you pay attention to Pearl's body language, it does seem like covering up her mouth is a nervous habit she has even outside of the Really ****ed Up Gag-Order. But honestly, that's a great character detail and it was pretty clever to link it to the Gag Order (cause when the active foreshadowing for it does start, the viewers might see it at first as just Pearl's regular habit).
I wonder if she might have developed it as a result of the trauma the Gag Order caused her.............. or if she had the habit before, and Rose noticed it and decided to incorporate it into the Gag-Order to make it less noticeable? Which of these options is more screwed-up?

[Keltest]

If you pay attention to Pearl's body language, it does seem like covering up her mouth is a nervous habit she has even outside of the Really ****ed Up Gag-Order. But honestly, that's a great character detail and it was pretty clever to link it to the Gag Order (cause when the active foreshadowing for it does start, the viewers might see it at first as just Pearl's regular habit).
I wonder if she might have developed it as a result of the trauma the Gag Order caused her.............. or if she had the habit before, and Rose noticed it and decided to incorporate it into the Gag-Order to make it less noticeable? Which of these options is more screwed-up?

Maybe its not part of the Gag Order at all? Maybe she just does it out of nervous habit because its a genuinely difficult thing for her to shut herself up like that and she's uncomfortable, and its just a thing she does when she's uncomfortable?

[LaZodiac]

I like how no matter what the answer actually is, the spirit and impact of the act is clear, concise, and brutal. Feel bad for that girl.

[Keltest]

I like how no matter what the answer actually is, the spirit and impact of the act is clear, concise, and brutal. Feel bad for that girl.

You can tell its good writing when people can have no idea what the truth is and still understand exactly whats going on.

[Rater202]

Maybe its not part of the Gag Order at all? Maybe she just does it out of nervous habit because its a genuinely difficult thing for her to shut herself up like that and she's uncomfortable, and its just a thing she does when she's uncomfortable?

This is a good theory, but it doesn't really line up.

Pearl has one line "back when I worked for... homeworld" where it's like she's almost going to admit to being Pink Diamond's Pearl and catches herself and she just pauses for a second.

But in episodes like Gemcation and I Am My Mom, she forcibly and involuntarily covers her own mouth when she's deliberately trying to tell Steven the Truth. Strongly indicating that covering her mouth is an involuntary motion.

And, well, Pink Diamond did cover Pearl's mouth when she gave the gag order.

And well, Rose's Scabbard was the episode where Pearl gets really pisssed off to find out that Rose didn't tell her everything... Which makes sense in the context of Pearl 1: Knowing Rose's greatest and most dire secrets and 2: Literally being designed to be Rose's perfect companion.

[Bartmanhomer]

Happy Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Birthday. :smile:

[Rater202]

Hypothetical: Your favorite movie is being remade, rebooted, reimagined, or whatever.

Are you hoping that it's 1: The same story told in a new way or 2: a new story told in the same spirit.

Like, my understanding is that good remakes are either one or the other. Remakes that try to do both usually end up in a situation where they'd be better if they were just an orignal concept, while remakes that don't do either tend to just be the same movie all over again.

[Peelee]

Hypothetical: Your favorite movie is being remade, rebooted, reimagined, or whatever.

Are you hoping that it's 1: The same story told in a new way or 2: a new story told in the same spirit.

Like, my understanding is that good remakes are either one or the other. Remakes that try to do both usually end up in a situation where they'd be better if they were just an orignal concept, while remakes that don't do either tend to just be the same movie all over again.

Wouldn't a new story be a different movie entirely? Can you give some examples of those so I can better understand what you mean?

[Rater202]

Wouldn't a new story be a different movie entirely? Can you give some examples of those so I can better understand what you mean?A New Movie in the same spirit of the oringal can still work as a remake.

For example, if they rebooted the Halloween Franchise... Again... But instead of focusing on Michael Myers and Laurie Strode they had a similar deranged silent killer who was an obvious Homage to Michael stalking some other girl is highly similar circumstances with the same atmosphere while telling an orignal story, that would be a 'remake' in the same spirit as the orignal.

On the other hand, if they told the exact same story beats of the original movie, down to the characters, but filmed the whole thing from Michael's perspective, made him the Villain Protagonist, with the tone changed from one of suspense to one of... So Halloween 4 and Halloween 6 both depicted Michael as being compelled to kill and unable to resist it and I think that's more interesting than the idea of him just being inherently inhuman and evil, so a tone and atmosphere that emphasizes his compulsions, then that would be a remake that tells the same story in a new way.

[LaZodiac]

This question reminds me of the ongoing conversation I've had with various friends about the logistcs of doing a Princess Bride remake; which is to say, it must be Fred Savage telling the story to HIS grandkid, and the story should be different in places, because HE is altering the story for his grandchild (preferably daughter) like his grandpa did for him.

[Bartmanhomer]

This question reminds me of the ongoing conversation I've had with various friends about the logistcs of doing a Princess Bride remake; which is to say, it must be Fred Savage telling the story to HIS grandkid, and the story should be different in places, because HE is altering the story for his grandchild (preferably daughter) like his grandpa did for him.

I like this idea. :smile:

[Peelee]

This question reminds me of the ongoing conversation I've had with various friends about the logistcs of doing a Princess Bride remake; which is to say, it must be Fred Savage telling the story to HIS grandkid, and the story should be different in places, because HE is altering the story for his grandchild (preferably daughter) like his grandpa did for him.

Eh. I like Fred Savage, but he's no Peter Falk.

[Rater202]

This question reminds me of the ongoing conversation I've had with various friends about the logistcs of doing a Princess Bride remake; which is to say, it must be Fred Savage telling the story to HIS grandkid, and the story should be different in places, because HE is altering the story for his grandchild (preferably daughter) like his grandpa did for him.

So there's an official PG-13 cut of Deadpool 2. It has the framing device that it's Deadpool telling the story and deliberately toning it down... And he's telling it to Fred Savage who he's kidnapped and duct-taped to a bed in a recreation of the bedroom set from The Princess Bride.

[LaZodiac]

Eh. I like Fred Savage, but he's no Peter Falk.

Valid, it doesn't have to be the same actor, just the same character implicitly.


So there's an official PG-13 cut of Deadpool 2. It has the framing device that it's Deadpool telling the story and deliberately toning it down... And he's telling it to Fred Savage who he's kidnapped and duct-taped to a bed in a recreation of the bedroom set from The Princess Bride.

I'm aware of that and it kinda owns.

[Rater202]

Cat: Just randomly flops down on the edge of the table.

Me: "Be careful, one of these days you're gonna lay down like that and fa—"

Cat: Suddenly slides off the edge of the table.

I was joking but...

*kitty is okay.*

[Peelee]

Valid, it doesn't have to be the same actor, just the same character implicitly.
That'd be neat, then, yeah.

I'm aware of that and it kinda owns.
Unpopular opinion: Every time I read or hear something about Deadpool, it just sounds like the most try-hard, pseudo-edgy work out there.

[Lord Raziere]

Unpopular opinion: Every time I read or hear something about Deadpool, it just sounds like the most try-hard, pseudo-edgy work out there.

Thats because he is a parody of the try-hard pseudo-edgy comic book character he is a based on: Slade.

The difference is Slade tries to takes itself seriously, while Deadpool has like three voices in his head, at least of one of them breaks the fourth wall while he is making constant references, and that Deadpool is kind of a goofball who just muddles through all the situations he encounters.

like the one time I saw a Slade movie them seriously making Slade a father and such, and having seen two Deadpool movies, deadpool is better, because I recognized all the beats that was done for Deadpool but less funny.

[Rater202]

Unpopular opinion: Every time I read or hear something about Deadpool, it just sounds like the most try-hard, pseudo-edgy work out there.

That's kind of the joke.

Deadpool was originally created as a transparent, exaggerated rip-off of Deathstroke the Terminator. (Ironic, since Deathstroke was basically "Evil Captain America.") Down to his name. Wade Wilson vs Slade Wilson. where do you practice your Deathstroke? At the Deadpool. Etcetera.

Then another writer got his hands on him and decided that since he was already impossible to take seriously, reimagining Wade as a mentally ill edgelord anime-geek who thinks he's a character in a comic book would make him more interesting. "I can't salvage this, so I'm just gonna roll with it."

Which doesn't mean he doesn't have his serious moments.

[Peelee]

Thats because he is a parody of the try-hard pseudo-edgy comic book character he is a based on: Slade.

That's kind of the joke.

Deadpool was originally created as a transparent, exaggerated rip-off of Deathstroke the Terminator.
Man, that makes perfect sense. Also explains why it falls flat for me - don't know the original so the parody doesn't translate. Thanks!

[Lord Raziere]

Man, that makes perfect sense. Also explains why it falls flat for me - don't know the original so the parody doesn't translate. Thanks!

Eh, I was exposed to Deadpool first and I like him better simply because he is lovable random goofball mercenary antihero. honestly I'd say he is a better character than Slade simply because Slade at his most heroic is just your stock veteran soldier action movie badass but with regeneration, your missing nothing.

[LaZodiac]

Cat: Just randomly flops down on the edge of the table.

Me: "Be careful, one of these days you're gonna lay down like that and fa—"

Cat: Suddenly slides off the edge of the table.

I was joking but...

*kitty is okay.*

I am glad kitty is okay! Kittens are very resistant to gravity... almost as much as they are resistance to understanding their own hubris.


That'd be neat, then, yeah.

Unpopular opinion: Every time I read or hear something about Deadpool, it just sounds like the most try-hard, pseudo-edgy work out there.

To reiterate, but also explain; that's the joke. Like, not even "hah he's parodying an edgelord character", I'd say. The joke is that "he is doing a parody and that is the joke". The joke is that he's making the joke, and comedy comes from the fact that you're aware he is aware he's actively acting like this as a joke.

Basically, you know how Spiderman snarks to cause people to make mistakes and to ease his own tension? Deadpool acts like an edgy guns-and-blood ******* at times for much the same reason. He's actually a very sweet dude (if acerbic and to the point) but is playing it up because he's a cancer survivor due in part only to his Weapon X regeneration abilities.

Point is he's fun. I like him. Something about him works for me.

[Peelee]

Eh, I was exposed to Deadpool first and I like him better simply because he is lovable random goofball mercenary antihero. honestly I'd say he is a better character than Slade simply because Slade at his most heroic is just your stock veteran soldier action movie badass but with regeneration, your missing nothing.
Eh, go with what works for ya.

To reiterate, but also explain; that's the joke. Like, not even "hah he's parodying an edgelord character", I'd say. The joke is that "he is doing a parody and that is the joke". The joke is that he's making the joke, and comedy comes from the fact that you're aware he is aware he's actively acting like this as a joke.

Basically, you know how Spiderman snarks to cause people to make mistakes and to ease his own tension? Deadpool acts like an edgy guns-and-blood ******* at times for much the same reason. He's actually a very sweet dude (if acerbic and to the point) but is playing it up because he's a cancer survivor due in part only to his Weapon X regeneration abilities.

Point is he's fun. I like him. Something about him works for me.
See, I don't find someone saying "I MADE A JOKE, SEE, THATS A JOKE THERE! RIGHT THERE! PUNCHLINE! *nudge nudge* DID YOU SEE IT?" fun. More obnoxious.

On a related note, but distinctly separate to Deadpool since I held this opinion long before Deadpool, I also dislike Ryan Reynolds.

[LaZodiac]

Eh, go with what works for ya.

See, I don't find someone saying "I MADE A JOKE, SEE, THATS A JOKE THERE! RIGHT THERE! PUNCHLINE! *nudge nudge* DID YOU SEE IT?" fun. More obnoxious.

On a related note, but distinctly separate to Deadpool since I held this opinion long before Deadpool, I also dislike Ryan Reynolds.

Well, the joke being he is making the joke is the joke, but he doesn't go out of his way to point it out. There's no wink wink nudge nudging about.

At any rate; you'd probably like Gwynpool? She's great.

[Lord Raziere]

Well, the joke being he is making the joke is the joke, but he doesn't go out of his way to point it out. There's no wink wink nudge nudging about.

At any rate; you'd probably like Gwynpool? She's great.

eh don't bother Zodi, I'm pretty sure at this point unless Peelee just bites the bullet and checks out Deadpool for himself, its just going to be more hype backlash. stuff like this is hard to describe without people taking it the wrong way if they are sufficiently different of a mindset from your own.

[Mystic Muse]

Also, if he doesn't like Ryan Reynolds, the odds of him liking live-action Deadpool are pretty minimal as well.

[Peelee]

At any rate; you'd probably like Gwynpool? She's great.
Tell me about Gwynpool. I'm intrigued.

eh don't bother Zodi, I'm pretty sure at this point unless Peelee just bites the bullet and checks out Deadpool for himself, its just going to be more hype backlash. stuff like this is hard to describe without people taking it the wrong way if they are sufficiently different of a mindset from your own.
I saw the trailer for both Deadpool movies. They made me want to stay very far away from the Deadpool movies.

[Keltest]

I saw the trailer for both Deadpool movies. They made me want to stay very far away from the Deadpool movies.

The movies absolutely earn their ratings, so be aware of that if you dont like R rated stuff in general, but within the context of that, theyre fun movies. They have some genuinely kind of sweet character moments interspaced with a lot of "this trope looks really goofy if you dont suspend your disbelief ahead of time" style humor, and the occasional lowbrow joke which may or may not be there specifically to make sure the rating is what it was.

[LaZodiac]

Tell me about Gwynpool. I'm intrigued.

I saw the trailer for both Deadpool movies. They made me want to stay very far away from the Deadpool movies.

Gwen Poole is a regular human girl from Earth, who gets sucked into the Marvel comic book universe. She's a physical mix of Gwen Stacey and Wade Wilson/Deadpool, sort of taking some hints from Spider-Gwen from the Spiderverse, but for Deadpool. She, being an actual human being, has knowledge of how comics work and can use comic rules to her advantage to effectively act as a fourth wall breaking... not so much reality warper as Reality Understander. She knows that if she leaps off a building she won't die because that'd be lame a way for a hero to die, so she does that a bunch, for example.

She becomes best friends with Batroc the Leaper and Howard the Duck, and is basically just a whole lot of fun in a medium that is usually overwhelmed by ridiculous melodrama and grimdark edgelord ****.

Definitely stay away from the Deadpool films, especially if you do dislike Ryan Reynolds. I'm usually not one for puerile humour but something about Deadpool just worked for me. During the relationship montage of him and his girlfriend on Valentine's Day we see that he gets to receive and that's extremely in character and I do love that.

[Peelee]

The movies absolutely earn their ratings, so be aware of that if you dont like R rated stuff in general, but within the context of that, theyre fun movies. They have some genuinely kind of sweet character moments interspaced with a lot of "this trope looks really goofy if you dont suspend your disbelief ahead of time" style humor, and the occasional lowbrow joke which may or may not be there specifically to make sure the rating is what it was.
I generally don't have a problem with hard R movies or the like. That one just seemed super unappealing to me.

Though that happens with things other people love sometime. I hate Will Ferrell movies where he plays the exact same character of "man too stupid to live, but doing X job this time". Ricky Bobby had a single joke I laughed at. I got paid to see it and I still wanted a refund. I have still not forgiven an old friend who made me see Elf. I consider myself fortunate enough that I have not seen most of the others. Conversely, Stranger Than Fiction was brilliant, because he wasn't playing Man Too Stupid To Live. It was delightful. But other people like his MTSTL series, so I'm just the odd one out there. Same with Deadpool/Ryan Reynolds.

Gwen Poole is a regular human girl from Earth, who gets sucked into the Marvel comic book universe. She's a physical mix of Gwen Stacey and Wade Wilson/Deadpool, sort of taking some hints from Spider-Gwen from the Spiderverse, but for Deadpool. She, being an actual human being, has knowledge of how comics work and can use comic rules to her advantage to effectively act as a fourth wall breaking... not so much reality warper as Reality Understander. She knows that if she leaps off a building she won't die because that'd be lame a way for a hero to die, so she does that a bunch, for example.
Sounds interesting.

Definitely stay away from the Deadpool films, especially if you do dislike Ryan Reynolds.
Yeah, me somehow seeing it was never a danger.:smallwink:


ETA: I have also learned of Taddy Skates, snowboarding cat with a youtube channel. Just in case anyone needs some more awesome in their lives.

[Rater202]

I am glad kitty is okay! Kittens are very resistant to gravity... almost as much as they are resistance to understanding their own hubris.Kitty is not a kitten. He's a cople years old a this point and is a big fat foofy boy.

As opposed to his sister, who got longer and a little taller but not by much. she is nothing but floof and bones.
To reiterate, but also explain; that's the joke. Like, not even "hah he's parodying an edgelord character", I'd say. The joke is that "he is doing a parody and that is the joke". The joke is that he's making the joke, and comedy comes from the fact that you're aware he is aware he's actively acting like this as a joke.

Basically, you know how Spiderman snarks to cause people to make mistakes and to ease his own tension? Deadpool acts like an edgy guns-and-blood ******* at times for much the same reason. He's actually a very sweet dude (if acerbic and to the point) but is playing it up because he's a cancer survivor due in part only to his Weapon X regeneration abilities.

Point is he's fun. I like him. Something about him works for me.

Eh, six of one. He deliberately plays it up but he is genuinely mentally ill, due to the fact that at any given time roughly half of his brain is riddled with tumors.

Deadpool, whenever he's in the mood to try and be a hero, is depicted as looking up to people like Captain America and Spider-Man because he thinks they're a good example of what a hero is... And becuase he doesn't trust himself to stick to a moral code if he doesn't have an external yardstick to compare himself to.

...Which sometimes backfires on him. Secret Empire, when Captain America had been replaced by a Hydra sympathizing doppelganger by a reality-warping child who'd been indoctrinated by the Red Skull(admittedly, not very well) had Deadpool join HYDRA on the logic that "every time we have one of these hero vs hero fights, whatever side Captain America's own is either clear cut right from the beginning or revealed to have been right all along. I know this looks bad, but... Come on. It's Cap" and Hydra-Cap just used Wade's blind faith to make him do horrible things.

Re: Gwenpool, her origin is a complicated one. The popularity of Spider-Gwen, a Gwen Stacy from a universe where she got Spider-Powers, Peter Parker remained a bullied teenager until he snapped and became the Lizard in a failed attempt to "be like Spider-Woman" and then died due to complications of the formula when Spider-Gwen defeated him thus becoming Gwen's Uncle Ben, lead to Marvel doing a bunch of variant covers depicting Gwen Stacy Versions of other heroes.

Gwenpool proved unbelievably popular.

So they gave her to Chris Hastings, author of Doctor McNinja who regularly does freelance work for Marvel, and had him go nuts. First in a four-part backup story in Howard the Duck, then in her own series.

...She also had some cameo appearances in other comics, but early on they tended to flub her characterization a bit.

Hasting's series was canceled after 15 issues, cutting some storylines short(though there was enough warning to do a proper conclusion) and then she went on to appear in West Coast Avengers and then the Mini-Series Gwenpool Strikes Back.

Since then she's mostly been a background cameo.

[LaZodiac]

Given it's Dana "What's My Backstory Again?" Troi who brings up the theory that Gwenpool is a mutant... I think it's safe to say it's an injoke and her origin is exactly what it's supposed to be.

[Rater202]

Given it's Dana "What's My Backstory Again?" Troi who brings up the theory that Gwenpool is a mutant... I think it's safe to say it's an injoke and her origin is exactly what it's supposed to be. So I actualy edited that from my post since I felt it might be too much of a spoiler, but if we're going for it.

The comic was by Leah Williams and the actual character who theorizes that Gwen is a Mutant is Kamala Khan. I honestly don't know what you're alluding to.

Who brought it up because Gwen very clearly has powers of some kind, genuinely seems psychotic, and right now has been especially manic lately.

And Kamala's "is it possible that you're a mutant" questions, that the power and knowledge was more than Gwen could handle and that she sort of... disassociated a bit, is accompanied by flashback panels... But they're not flashback panels comparable to the ones that Gwen uses when she's making something have retroactively happened.

Gwen assumes that she accidentally retconned her own origin, and for that reason is highly reluctant to receive telepathic counseling on Krakoa less they find out she's not "really" a mutant and kick her out, but it's very deliberately ambigous in terms of the narrative.

[LaZodiac]

So I actualy edited that from my post since I felt it might be too much of a spoiler, but if we're going for it.

The comic was by Leah Williams and the actual character who theorizes that Gwen is a Mutant is Kamala Khan. I honestly don't know what you're alluding to.

Who brought it up because Gwen very clearly has powers of some kind, genuinely seems psychotic, and right now has been especially manic lately.

And Kamala's "is it possible that you're a mutant" questions, that the power and knowledge was more than Gwen could handle and that she sort of... disassociated a bit, is accompanied by flashback panels... But they're not flashback panels comparable to the ones that Gwen uses when she's making something have retroactively happened.

Gwen assumes that she accidentally retconned her own origin, and for that reason is highly reluctant to receive telepathic counseling on Krakoa less they find out she's not "really" a mutant and kick her out, but it's very deliberately ambigous in terms of the narrative.

I... almost certainly just completely misread because I'm tired. My bad.