[WFRP] The Bloody Crown OOC XV

[rax]

@LCP
Re-reading my latest IC post, I'm not too happy with Bardhyl's question for the merchants, probably because of trying to compress to many questions into one. :smallsmile:

What I'm really after is trying to get a grip on the Prince's economic policy and how it's working in the short and long term. My current understanding is as follows:

1. The Prince has introduced a price cap on the sale of grain, but isn't bulk buying locally produced grain - that's still handled by the market.

2. There is a shortage of grain in the Reaches, so to meet demand the Prince is buying foreign grain at market prices and importing it into the Reaches.

3. Most taxes in the Reaches are paid in kind, so his administration has a limited inflow of cash.

4. A large part of the taxes taken in kind must be going to supporting his growing professional army.

5. Despite this, the Prince is issuing letters of credit and paying foreign grain merchants in gold.

6. He can't recoup the cost by reselling the grain locally, so the imported grain must be a net drain on his finances.

The actual question for the merchants: How is the Prince generating the gold to pay for the current scheme and is it at all sustainable?

Edit: And since you pretty much answered the question while I was writing, I'd appreciate an OOC response regarding my understanding/assumptions above.

- Is my list correct with regards to known facts?
- Am I missing something obvious which has been communicated IC and which would undermine the assumptions in points 1-6?

[rax]

Sucky roll in the IC thread. Spending an FP for a re-roll: [roll0]

Edit: Morr says: "Nothing to see here, move along..." :smallfrown:

[LCP]

I don't think you're missing anything. The only minor correction I'd offer is to point 1 - no-one's saying the crown isn't buying local grain, only that it's also buying in grain from the north.

One extra point that Bardhyl would be aware of from his career in banditry - taxes aren't the only way a prince of the reaches can make money, there are resources here worth exporting.

[-Sentinel-]

Is there a way for Elsa to become aware of the chapel thing? I'm curious what the Nahorek-influenced people do when there's no one to restrain them.

[LCP]

Talking to Jarla would work?

[rax]

Re the crown also buying local grain, even with a reduced price that would be another drain on the royal coffers. So not a long term solution, I think...:smallamused:

Re exports - yeah, I assumed some resources are being exported, but my assumption was that the only exports Sforza can sell directly are goods that he's come by as a result of taxation (unless he's got a mine or a monopoly that only produces for him). Otherwise he'd have to buy the stuff first and then try to sell it at a profit, which I suppose is possible, but then he'd have to have still more ready cash on hand for purchases, and my impression so far is that Al-Makir is basically holding things together through financial wizardry rather than endless resources.

I've also assumed there's no such a thing as VAT or even just the crown taking a cut of all export profits. Even if Sforza has all known routes in and out of the Reaches locked down tight, with trustworthy assessors on hand, he'd have a hell of a time actually shaking down exporting merchants when their caravans return to the Reaches. His tax people would have no way of knowing what sort of profit the merchants might have made...

Actually that might be a good follow up question for the merchants. I'll edit my last IC post so that there's a next-but-last round of questions as well. :smallsmile:

All in all, though, finding out where Al-Makir is getting all the dosh to pay for Sforza's plans seems like worthwhile endeavour.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo had a partial answer to that, if you can think of a reason to ask him.

When is everyone moving on from Alvarran? Ludo wants to continue on ASAP so will find a caravan if people aren't heading off today or tomorrow.

[rax]

Thanks, I've already been planning on having Bardhyl talk to Ludo about what he's hearing from the merchants and sound him out about what he thinks of the Prince's plans and policies.

I take it that Ludo's next stop will be Painford rather than Savonne? Otherwise I'd recommend him leaving Castel d'Irena with Bardhyl's crew.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo's IC plan is basically to go to Painford via Savonne, to drop off the news of the Wyvern's death, and speak to Hieronymous about moving to painford, and then carry on to Painford with Hieronymous. After that he would return to Savonne to see about getting a job from Sforza but we'll have to see how things go with Leni and the locusts (post-punk girl band or children's novel? you decide).

[-Sentinel-]

Elsa will go back to Putbad via Savonne. She'll drop by Sforza's castle to update him on the wyvern, as well as the ongoing goblin situation.

I take it Wadim isn't traveling with us to go see the Book after all?



Leni and the locusts (post-punk girl band or children's novel? you decide).
hah :smallbiggrin:

[rax]

If nothing special happens as a result of the night's events in Castel d'Irena, Bardhyl would be prepared to leave for Savonne tomorrow.

Wadim isn't coming to see the book right now at least...

[rax]

@LCP
Yes, Bardhyl's priority is to hook up with his people and to find out how the mission to deliver Gina went.

Depending on what's going to happen next in Savonne, he'd also be interested in approaching his NPC contacts - primarily Mad Maglyn, to hear if she has any knowledge or decent guesses about the state of Sforza's finances, the flow of taxes within the Reaches, and where he's getting the gold to pay for imported grain.

[LCP]

On that front, don't let me rush you past any conversations with Ludo & co. on the way down. The party had ~1.5 days' travel before they hit the locusts.

[rax]

@LeSwordfish

FYI, I added Bardhyl tossing some questions at Ludo on the road to Savonne in my latest IC post. Maybe a bit on the nose, but I don't want to circle around the issue for too long IRL.

[-Sentinel-]

Hmm. Looks like Elsa will have to create ritual magic after all. I'll have to look into my books again, but it sounds like an interesting process.

It doesn't have to be fire-related, right? Many premade rituals, such as Inescapable Bindings of Duty and the March of the Doomed Soldier (?), have no obvious link with any of the eight Winds, and even those that do (the Rite of Barren Blood could be related to Shyish) never specify that you must specialize in any given Wind.

[LeSwordfish]

Could someone remind me what happened the last time the moon rose?

Also: I was assuming Ludo was in the room with Elsa and Sforza and the others. Just to check that he's being ignored IC, not missed OOC?

[LCP]

Yes, Sforza is talking to Elsa, but I'm assuming the rest of the gang are there too.

The last time the red moon rose there were outbreaks of madness and strange behaviour across the Reaches, but nothing the scale of the locust plague.

Re: ritual magic, I think the limits are your imagination, but obviosly Elsa is going to have an easier + safer time drawing on Aqshy than other sources of power. I would also say that just because Sforza wants it doesn't mean there's an easy or safe way to do it - bearing in mind particularly how fast the swarm moves.

[-Sentinel-]

I would also say that just because Sforza wants it doesn't mean there's an easy or safe way to do it - bearing in mind particularly how fast the swarm moves.
Considering how quickly the locusts were gone in Painford, it's obviously no use to create an anti-locust spell. That would be like ordering a fire extinguisher on Amazon to put out the fire in your kitchen. Also, I don't think Nahorek will use the locusts twice. Next time it'll be something else.

Sometimes I wish I'd given Elsa the Lore of Heavens, which has far wider applications (including divination) than the Lore of Fire. Then again, I never expected Elsa to survive that long into the game.

[LeSwordfish]

Yeah I mean more useful would be a ritual to summon food. (Lore of beasts, get every wild animal to line up outside the castle?)

[-Sentinel-]

Yeah I mean more useful would be a ritual to summon food. (Lore of beasts, get every wild animal to line up outside the castle?)
Tatiana is years away from being able to cast any ritual. She hasn't even shown the ability to turn into a raven. Besides, there won't be a shortage of meat in the near future, because farmers will soon slaughter whatever cattle they cannot afford to feed anymore.

The Lore of Fire could perhaps melt a mountaintop upstream of the Azril, but there's a risk of overdoing it and causing a flood. It's probably better to cast a spell with a specific end result than a spell that triggers a chain of events.

[rax]

It seems to me that the most important thing to consider is which problem the ritual would be meant to solve if it's not to remove the locusts.

[-Sentinel-]

The drought, I suppose.

We should also ask Sforza. Clearly, he knows what needs to be done.

[-Sentinel-]

Just went over the ritual creation rules, and there's this table that gives a new ritual a flat 80% chance of failing to be cast, even if you do everything right. And then you're sent back to the drawing board, and have to gather the ingredients (like "a lute strung with hair from the mane of a unicorn") all over again.

Amazing game design there. :smallsigh:

[rax]

It's WFRP. What did you expect? :smallconfused:

[TheSummoner]

Re: Ritual

So what about something like this. A ritual that can be focused on an induvial or group of similar creatures that causes the target to combust from within in a controlled burn that will be hot to the touch, but not spread to anything other than the target(s) itself. And then she casts it on Sforza.


I thought Ingwald was stationed at Ravenskird - am I misremembering?

No, that sounds right. In that case, Sieghard will just have the message delivered verbally.

[LeSwordfish]

I think the drought is frankly a secondary problem: sounds like there's no crops left to water.

[LCP]

I think I get what they were going for with the ritual creation rules, but I agree they miss the mark a bit. It seems a bit off to start the section with "rituals should be big, earth-shattering, plot-moving events" and then say "you're going to have to try to cast this a bunch of times just to test if it works." If you actually have something you want to do with ritual creation, I'm open to hacking into the rules a bit.

There's also always the possibility of using a ritual someone else already researched for you. Like Call Daemon!

https://morbotron.com/meme/S03E15/987802.jpg?b64lines=WW91IHN0aWxsIGhhdmUgQ2Fjb3Bocm F4LiAKWW91IGFsbAogc3RpbGwgaGF2ZSBDYWNvcGhyYXghCg==

[-Sentinel-]

Turns out you need a +10% in Arcane Language (Magic) to research a ritual, so Elsa can't even get started until the next XP drop. Also, I'm pretty sure the book that contained the Call Daemon spell was burned after Elsa's trial.

There's always the Book of Nagash, which Elsa can read now, but it has a mind of its own and I doubt it'll let itself be used to thwart the Hound of Nagash. If the Book seems to cooperate, it's probably a trap.

I guess Elsa could merely pretend to be working on a ritual, in order to buy time.



I think the drought is frankly a secondary problem: sounds like there's no crops left to water.
Yeah, that's fair.

The most useful thing we can do is defeat Nahorek, but Sforza is so vehemently denying that the Jackal's still there that he won't even let Elsa try.

[RossN]

I think the drought is frankly a secondary problem: sounds like there's no crops left to water.

Yeah. :smallfrown:

Definitely if she was a real person Jarla would be considering giving up and gone back to the Empire at this point.

[LCP]

There's always the Book of Nagash, which Elsa can read now, but it has a mind of its own and I doubt it'll let itself be used to thwart the Hound of Nagash. If the Book seems to cooperate, it's probably a trap.

Nagash was well known for his pest control tips. Have you considered summoning an army of undead locusts to kill the living ones? Or offering the queen of the locusts eternal unlife to corrupt their civilisation from within?


I guess Elsa could merely pretend to be working on a ritual, in order to buy time.

In all seriousness, Elsa's the only one here who fully understands the distinctions between ritual magic and other magic, or the limitations on what she can do. Sforza's command wasn't 'make me a ritual', it was just 'fix it' (https://media.tenor.com/_7pGw1Vj6FkAAAAC/fix-futurama.gif). There's a broad range of things you can do to try to solve the problem and/or appease him - I wouldn't get too bogged down in the ritual rules before thinking about what it is you'd actually want to try.

[RossN]

Jarla knows nothing about magic (much to her regret - she picked a bad time to get rid of her daemon! ) but she'll do what she can in helping Elsa in rituals. At the very least she can probably help supplying some of the ingredients.

[-Sentinel-]

Nagash was well known for his pest control tips. Have you considered summoning an army of undead locusts to kill the living ones? Or offering the queen of the locusts eternal unlife to corrupt their civilisation from within?
Heh. :smallbiggrin:



In all seriousness, Elsa's the only one here who fully understands the distinctions between ritual magic and other magic, or the limitations on what she can do. Sforza's command wasn't 'make me a ritual', it was just 'fix it' (https://media.tenor.com/_7pGw1Vj6FkAAAAC/fix-futurama.gif). There's a broad range of things you can do to try to solve the problem and/or appease him - I wouldn't get too bogged down in the ritual rules before thinking about what it is you'd actually want to try.
Right. But her main ideas all involve taking the fight to the enemy, which Sforza dismisses as "chasing shadows". She would probably get more done if she worked only with the Vrani and the dwarfs, but Sforza has made it clear that resignation is no longer an option, so the best thing Elsa can do is try to humor him while she works to save the Reaches behind his back.

A ritual, while fun from a story perspective, seems impractical. But I can think of something else.

[rax]

Well done Ludo for suggesting a real live enemy for Sforza to fight! :smallbiggrin:

[LCP]

Botched Sforza's Perception roll by pressing 'preview': [roll0]

god damn it he's got something in his eye, HOLT MUST HAVE PUT IT THERE

[LeSwordfish]

[roll0] vs 92

[-Sentinel-]

"I can't," Ludo said frankly. "And I won't, for sure. The dwarves sent an expedition in last year, with only a couple of survivors. If I may, mio principe, can I suggest patrolling or piqueting it instead? If they're dragging goblins in from the Giant's Teeth, we might be able to make a difference just by cutting those off. The goblins are vulnerable right now - we killed their boss."
Elsa isn't here anymore to argue, but I think this would actually be more hazardous than an expedition that goes straight for the jugular. Those men will be sitting ducks for Nahorek's storms. If they're planning to stay for any length of time, they'll need supply lines, which will be hard to maintain in areas like the Giant's Teeth and the Pale Waste.

Keep in mind, also, that the armed forces of the Reaches are rather tiny. They can occupy small settlements and guard choke points like bridges and mountain passes, at most. I highly doubt they can interdict movement across a vast area.

[LeSwordfish]

If Sforza sends people to the Red Pyramid I think there's a pretty fair chance they'll Just Die. A sitting duck is one thing, but it's quite another to be a duck that covers itself in orange sauce and walks directly into the oven.

[-Sentinel-]

I just feel it's too little, too late. Cutting off Nahorek's influx of new goblins will not defeat him. His plagues of drought and locusts have made it clear that he doesn't even need an army to defeat us.

At this point, all he has to do is wait for the Reaches to starve. You think we can win by outwaiting him?

More alarmingly, his political program ("make me king of the Reaches and maybe I'll stop turning it into a desert") seems to be gaining in popularity.

[TheSummoner]

I mean, let's be blunt about this. Sforza isn't going to take the threat seriously until it's too late. That leaves us three real options
Put him in a situation where he can't deny it any longer
Kill him and deal with it ourselves
Sit on our hands and let things get worse

Sending soldiers to the pyramid OR to just patrol the wastes isn't going to stop Nahorek, but either might accomplish #1. The way Ludo's going about it at the very least gives anyone Sforza sends a better chance of survival than making him think he can send a few soldiers in to murder Mala and it'll succeed.

[LCP]

Some follow-on questions for Sieghard's plan:

1. How directly is Sieghard going to be assuming control of the division of labour? The villagers in Painford (and Thornwood folks in general) are used to largely managing their own affairs, as long as they pay their taxes. Will Sieghard be just ordering specific people to drop what they're doing and do specific jobs? If so, will he offer them any pay? Or will he use more indirect methods of encouragement?
2. On similar lines, what jobs does he want to use the Thorns for?
3. What's the rationing scheme going to look like? Will it apply just to Painford or to all Sieghard's land? Is it going to be on the honour system or is there some mechanism of enforcement? Most people have stores of food in their homes - are you going to centralise the stores so you can control how they're rationed out?

[-Sentinel-]

I mean, let's be blunt about this. Sforza isn't going to take the threat seriously until it's too late. That leaves us three real options
Put him in a situation where he can't deny it any longer
Kill him and deal with it ourselves
Sit on our hands and let things get worse
We can also try to deal with it ourselves without involving Sforza or his forces at all. Both the Vrani and the dwarfs are ancient enemies of Nahorek and are not under Sforza's command (or at least, act like they aren't).

[rax]

@LCP

Re social skill tests to convince Maglyn, Charm seems like the most obvious candidate ("...change the minds of individuals..."), but at the same time the description of Gossip says it's used to gather information and for "engaging in informal conversation", and Bardhyl is certainly digging for information through informal conversation here.

Which do you feel is appropriate to roll for?

[LCP]

I think here you're persuading her that sharing the info is in her interests, so charm.

[TheSummoner]

Some follow-on questions for Sieghard's plan:

1. How directly is Sieghard going to be assuming control of the division of labour? The villagers in Painford (and Thornwood folks in general) are used to largely managing their own affairs, as long as they pay their taxes. Will Sieghard be just ordering specific people to drop what they're doing and do specific jobs? If so, will he offer them any pay? Or will he use more indirect methods of encouragement?
2. On similar lines, what jobs does he want to use the Thorns for?
3. What's the rationing scheme going to look like? Will it apply just to Painford or to all Sieghard's land? Is it going to be on the honour system or is there some mechanism of enforcement? Most people have stores of food in their homes - are you going to centralise the stores so you can control how they're rationed out?

1) He'll try to provide direction and encouragement where he can, but he won't go to the level of outright ordering people. The primary method he'll be going about it is pretty much bluntly stressing that all of this is the best chance there is for everyone to make it through until next year.
2) At the moment, putting them to work hunting is probably the best use of their skills. He's not going to send everyone out of the village to do that, but they're no doubt the best shots and those that can be most trusted to actually bring back what they can find.
3) He's going to try to centralize things, yes. I don't think Sieghard really has the reach to enforce it beyond Painford. He can try to convince those outside to go along with it "You contribute now and we make sure you're taken care of when times get lean. And if you don't think they're going to get lean, look outside where there used to be green stuff". In Painford proper, he could enforce it, but he'd prefer to try to get them to go along with it willingly first. In Painford at least, he should have more leverage than elsewhere. "As long as you've known me, I've done everything I could to keep the people of Painford safe. Remember when Rorik sent his savages to attack the village? No one who listened to me was hurt." "What about Marta and Kirsten?" "No one who listened to me was hurt. I can't protect you if you don't trust me enough to listen"

I imagine this will all take some persuasion. Would fellowship-based intimidation be appropriate? Sieghard's not threatening them, but he's perfectly wiling to emphasize what's coming and how bad that will be if people don't get on board with what needs to be done.
[roll0] vs 64
[roll1] reroll


We can also try to deal with it ourselves without involving Sforza or his forces at all. Both the Vrani and the dwarfs are ancient enemies of Nahorek and are not under Sforza's command (or at least, act like they aren't).

Two problems with that. First, going under his nose is likely to just make him another obstacle when he inevitably finds out. It's something we can get away with for small things, but not for a war with the undead. Second, we're far more likely to succeed with his resources than without.

I've been thinking a bit about the whole ritual situation. Realistically, Elsa is the only one with any chance of permanently stopping Nahorek, or at least as permanent as it was last time. I realize this isn't exactly her specialty, but maybe she could devise a stronger prison for him. Maybe she could find a way to destroy his spirit. Maybe she could find out what they did last time and improve on that. Even if it's outside of her expertise, she's still more suited to it than anyone else in the party. She wouldn't necessarily have to come up with it alone either - the priests could probably be persuaded to help pretty easily and there's precedent for blending arcane and divine magics in Warhammer.

Another possibility that arguably could be a bit more in her area is the situation with the crops. The locusts are only part of the problem, the other one is the ticking clock that winter presents. Could she maybe come up with some sort if ritual that would prevent the ground from freezing? Something that would allow crops to grow through the rest of the year? She's no life wizard... She can't make them grow... But she might be able to create the conditions that will allow them to grow naturally. It seems feasible enough to at least bounce the idea around.

[-Sentinel-]

First, going under his nose is likely to just make him another obstacle when he inevitably finds out. It's something we can get away with for small things, but not for a war with the undead.
He certainly didn't oppose Kleinrabe's expedition. I think he mostly takes issue with people gambling with his resources, rather than people waging their private wars.



I've been thinking a bit about the whole ritual situation. Realistically, Elsa is the only one with any chance of permanently stopping Nahorek, or at least as permanent as it was last time. I realize this isn't exactly her specialty, but maybe she could devise a stronger prison for him. Maybe she could find a way to destroy his spirit. Maybe she could find out what they did last time and improve on that.
Right. Where would we find that knowledge?

I get the feeling that anything Elsa can do, those who imprisoned Nahorek millennia ago could do better.



Another possibility that arguably could be a bit more in her area is the situation with the crops. The locusts are only part of the problem, the other one is the ticking clock that winter presents. Could she maybe come up with some sort if ritual that would prevent the ground from freezing? Something that would allow crops to grow through the rest of the year? She's no life wizard... She can't make them grow... But she might be able to create the conditions that will allow them to grow naturally. It seems feasible enough to at least bounce the idea around.
I think cheating the very seasons across all of the Downlands is just too big for any ritual Elsa could realistically perform. Also, even if it could be done, keeping the ground from freezing does nothing about snowfall and short days.


@ LCP: I've been looking at options in Realms of Sorcery, and while I found nothing that fits Sforza's vague demands to "magic my problems away", I did have a close look at the spell Burning Vengeance. Sounds useful to our campaign, but I'm just wondering... would you even allow it, or is it plainly overpowered? I know that some of the extra spells from Realms are poorly designed.

https://i.imgur.com/9AhPsuZ.png

It specifies no range. I don't know if it's an omission or if it's intended to be that powerful, just like the spell Fate of Doom from the Lore of Heavens.

[TheSummoner]

He certainly didn't oppose Kleinrabe's expedition. I think he mostly takes issue with people gambling with his resources, rather than people waging their private wars.

We are his resources. Well, except Bardhyl.


Right. Where would we find that knowledge?

I get the feeling that anything Elsa can do, those who imprisoned Nahorek millennia ago could do better.

Finding it's the challenge, but we've got groups generally inclined to help when it comes into looking into trying to dig up things like that.
Edit: Another possibility... One I'm not looking forward to, but may be something we have to deal with eventually anyways... There's probably clues in the Red Pyramid.

Also, I don't know why you'd assume that. Elsa matched Nahorek's spellcasting pretty well in Nath after all.


I think cheating the very seasons across all of the Downlands is just too big for any ritual Elsa could realistically perform. Also, even if it could be done, keeping the ground from freezing does nothing about snowfall and short days.

Who said anything about doing it across all of the Downlands? Even a smaller area could do a world of difference. Shorter days could still be an issue, but I don't think it's much of a stretch for a ritual that could work for, sake of magical mechanics, by infusing the ground with Aqshy to prevent the ground from freezing also be designed so that snow would melt upon touching it.


@ LCP: I've been looking at options in Realms of Sorcery, and while I found nothing that fits Sforza's vague demands to "magic my problems away", I did have a close look at the spell Burning Vengeance. Sounds useful to our campaign, but I'm just wondering... would you even allow it, or is it plainly overpowered? I know that some of the extra spells from Realms are poorly designed.

https://i.imgur.com/9AhPsuZ.png

It specifies no range. I don't know if it's an omission or if it's intended to be that powerful, just like the spell Fate of Doom from the Lore of Heavens.

Ha. Wouldn't solve his problems, but it would certainly help with some of ours.

[LCP]

He's going to try to centralize things, yes.

I'd like some more detail there if poss.:
Where will the stores be? Are there any measures you want to specify to keep them protected?
How will you determine people are putting their fair share in and taking their fair share out?


I don't think Sieghard really has the reach to enforce it beyond Painford.

He is Warden of the Thornwood, and he's got tax collectors stationed in Ravenskird.

Bear in mind that if the rules only apply in a small area, some people may get clever about coming and going over the boundary.


I imagine this will all take some persuasion. Would fellowship-based intimidation be appropriate? Sieghard's not threatening them, but he's perfectly wiling to emphasize what's coming and how bad that will be if people don't get on board with what needs to be done.
[roll0] vs 64
[roll1] reroll

You have a reasonable amount of goodwill and people can see the necessity of measures like these, so you don't need rolls to secure agreement in principle. I'll take the rolls to represent how well Sieghard goes about "encouraging" people to execute the specific jobs he wants done as they need doing, though.


@ LCP: I've been looking at options in Realms of Sorcery, and while I found nothing that fits Sforza's vague demands to "magic my problems away", I did have a close look at the spell Burning Vengeance. Sounds useful to our campaign, but I'm just wondering... would you even allow it, or is it plainly overpowered? I know that some of the extra spells from Realms are poorly designed.

It looks to me like it ought to have a range. Wouldn't be the only spell to have its range omitted.

Doesn't seem broken otherwise though.


Finding it's the challenge, but we've got groups generally inclined to help when it comes into looking into trying to dig up things like that.
Edit: Another possibility... One I'm not looking forward to, but may be something we have to deal with eventually anyways... There's probably clues in the Red Pyramid.

You do have a fair few bits and bobs you've already dug up. Meskhenet, Zonbrynaz, Nahorek's mask... the book...

[rax]

I think here you're persuading her that sharing the info is in her interests, so charm. Thanks, I'll get a roll and IC post up tomorrow. Had a really busy day today.

[-Sentinel-]

the hand-scribed account of a wandering Solkanite inquisitor,
Who are the Solkanites? Do I need to roll some kind of knowledge test?

[TheSummoner]

I'd like some more detail there if poss.:
Where will the stores be? Are there any measures you want to specify to keep them protected?
How will you determine people are putting their fair share in and taking their fair share out?

Short term, the manor. Longer term, build dedicated building. Watched/Locked
Taking, Sieghard's men can oversee distribution. Contributing, all that can really be done is keep track of things.


He is Warden of the Thornwood, and he's got tax collectors stationed in Ravenskird.

Bear in mind that if the rules only apply in a small area, some people may get clever about coming and going over the boundary.

The issue is more of manpower than anything else. He just doesn't have the sort to send people every time someone needs a meal. If the people more distant want to take what they can and move closer to the village, they have that option. Otherwise, I don't see there being lot he can do about it. This goes both ways though - If they want to be on their own in terms contributing to pooling resources, that also means they're on their own in terms of drawing from the pool. The best he can do is try to convince them it's in their own best interest as well as everyone else's. Survive together or risk starving alone sorta thing.


You do have a fair few bits and bobs you've already dug up. Meskhenet, Zonbrynaz, Nahorek's mask... the book...

I'm doubtful how much any of those could tell us about the ritual that imprisoned Nahorek originally. MAYBE the mask if we had Hieronymus study it via Lore of Verena, but that's probably got just a good a chance if not more of just giving him a bunch of horrific, insanity inducing visions of Nahorek doing Nahorek things. After what he's been through, I'm not sure if risking that sort of thing is the best idea. I think we already had either him or Adelbert check the spear, but I could be mistaken.


Who are the Solkanites? Do I need to roll some kind of knowledge test?

OOC answer that shouldn't affect anything relevant IC: A relic of early Warhammer back when they were copying Michael Moorcock's Law vs Chaos dynamic a bit more closely rather than going all in on the Chaos side of things. How canon they are has varied over time, but I think 4e brought them back as something that does exist in-universe while being fairly minor.

[-Sentinel-]

OOC answer that shouldn't affect anything relevant IC: A relic of early Warhammer back when they were copying Michael Moorcock's Law vs Chaos dynamic a bit more closely rather than going all in on the Chaos side of things. How canon they are has varied over time, but I think 4e brought them back as something that does exist in-universe while being fairly minor.
Thanks.



Ludo nodded. "The further away we send it, the less it's our problem. A shame that the knights of Morr didn't take it."
Come on now, we all know it can't be that simple. We know it IC (the Book has a mind of its own), and we know it OOC (there's no way LCP lets us get rid of such a plot-driving source of conflict just by handing it over to a bunch of randos).

This is like calling the police on Jason Voorhees.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo furrowed his brow. "Who's LCP?"

[TheSummoner]

"Regional diety they worship a bit further north," Sieghard replied. "Ranald's cousin. God of the sort of luck that us usually ends in someone being maimed. Mostly worshipped by horse thieves and the sort of lackwit who spends too much time playing with dice."

[LCP]

A shifty-looking dog in the corner moved its eyes from side to side.

I'd like to wrap up Ludo's scene before I move things along too far with Elsa, since both characters are communicating with Sforza. Does Ludo have more he wants to say, or should I move things along? Not sure what's next on his list, whether he wants to visit Hieronymus today etc.

For Jarla, as well as going to her room and getting drunk, are there any other NPCs she wants to catch up with? There's the letter Carraciolo gave her for Barbaro, and she hasn't seen her bestie Irene yet.


Contributing, all that can really be done is keep track of things.

How you'll keep track is what I'm interested in. Will you be relying on the Thorns' memories for numbers and faces, or will you have some kind of ledger/register? Will a single person/small group of people oversee it or will you share the duty out?

This kind of civilian rationing is a fairly tricky logistical endeavour - in the 20th century it was done with things like ration books. You've got the advantage of working with a small, tight-knit community here, but you can expect it's still going to put that community under strain - I just need to know the shape of the order that's being imposed well enough that I can picture how people feel about it and interact with it as time goes on. I'm happy to abstract some of the planning with rolls etc., and for Sieghard to delegate if he can identify who he's delegating to, but the end result needs to be a method rather than an outcome.

[LeSwordfish]

I don't have a specific outcome I'm trying to achieve with Sforza - I think i've handed over the information we can reasonably give him and he'll respond to it as he wishes. Kind of wish I hadn't dissuaded him from sending people into the Red Pyramid, a squad of dead Iron Company would probably get his attention. Ludo wouldn't think that way, though. Feel free to close the conversation off now, i'll write myself over to Hieronymous' place when I have time.

[rax]

@LeSwordfish

When Bardhyl is done with Maglyn, I'm intending for his next line of inquiry to be to talk to Hieronymous. Perhaps Bardhyl and Ludo could handily meet up there?

I'd like to see if there's anything to be learned from the books Tshula was studying when we exorcised her the first time. As I noted at the time, it's not like she needed them to work out where the Book of Nagash is hidden, so what was she trying to learn?

[TheSummoner]

A shifty-looking dog in the corner moved its eyes from side to side.

https://media.tenor.com/frr14Vbhb0UAAAAC/simpsons-dog.gif


How you'll keep track is what I'm interested in. Will you be relying on the Thorns' memories for numbers and faces, or will you have some kind of ledger/register? Will a single person/small group of people oversee it or will you share the duty out?

Sieghard is probably going to need a ledger to keep track of everything, which in turn also means bringing Ingwald back to Painford to handle most of the bookkeeping. Nominally, it's just going to be keeping track of how much food they've got on hand, but actual contributions will be written down as well so there will be a record if anyone seems to be slacking and trying to leech off the rest. As for whose overseeing it, probably a small group whose members are regularly rotated to make sure no one gets too comfortable with the position. I'd like to hope none of the soldiers would take advantage of being the ones overseeing the food supply, but I'm not so naive as ignore the possibility.

[LeSwordfish]

@LeSwordfish

When Bardhyl is done with Maglyn, I'm intending for his next line of inquiry to be to talk to Hieronymous. Perhaps Bardhyl and Ludo could handily meet up there?

Sure, though I think Ludo would prefer to have this conversation about the miracle in private, so if that's not done by the time you are perhaps it could be slightly timesplit? I've jumped Ludo forward to the 27th to line up with that.

[RossN]

For Jarla, as well as going to her room and getting drunk, are there any other NPCs she wants to catch up with? There's the letter Carraciolo gave her for Barbaro, and she hasn't seen her bestie Irene yet.

Ooh, I forgot about the letter. Jarla will deliver it as soon as she can get away from Sforza.

Jarla is going to avoid going straight to Irene. Irene's awful anyway and she'll likely be a thousand times worse with the locusts.

[-Sentinel-]

@ LeSwordfish: While you're with Hieronymus, you should tell him that Tshula has been exorcised for good. He deserves to know.

[LCP]

Sieghard is probably going to need a ledger to keep track of everything, which in turn also means bringing Ingwald back to Painford to handle most of the bookkeeping.

If you just want someone who's literate, there are probably others you could call on - but in terms of skills and experience he's certainly a good fit. Does that mean you'll be leaving Ravenskird to fend for itself unsupervised?


Irene's awful anyway

gasp

people can be so mean

[TheSummoner]

Not unsupervised. Just un-Ingwalded. I think Sieghard will need an update from Ingwald on how Ravenskird is doing post-locust before making any specific plans.

[rax]

@LCP

Re Maglyn's comments about the Shade coming in and out via the docks - is it a reasonable assumption that it's both arriving and leaving by boat? I ask because the hex map doesn't appear to show the river going all the way down to Last Water, so I'd assumed that it probably arrives in Savonne by road. Although, obviously it could go part of the way by road and then be loaded onto boats closer to Savonne. Conversely, could "out by the docks" also refer to the drugs being off-loaded in Savonne and then sent north by road via Alvarran?

I'm not trying to finagle a free answer here, just to get a feel for what it would be normal for Bardhyl to infer from Maglyn's explanation given his knowledge of how trade flows in and out of the Reaches.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not super familiar with the religion of the old world and was raised essentially atheistically myself, so please feel free to correct me if Ludo says something about the gods that jibes with what Everyone Thinks or Everyone Knows - I think this is something he's never really examined before and is now discovering, rather than the various unorthodox beliefs that Elsa or Adelbert have espoused at various times.

[RossN]

Given Adelbert ended up forsaking Verena and would have left the Temple had he survived he might not be the best spiritual example for Ludo.

[LCP]

I don't see anything in Ludo's assumptions or questions that seems out of place.

RossN, can I get a yes or no for if Jarla's going with Elsa?

[RossN]

She is going with Elsa. Sorry for the delay, real life busyness but I'll have an IC post up later today.

[rax]

@LCP

Did you see my post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25841854&postcount=563) above?

[LCP]

Sorry - think I saw that and then clean forgot about it when I came back later.

A lot of stuff goes by the river even south of Savonne - riverboats are simply better than carts for moving large quantities of stuff. I think it's reasonable to assume that Maglyn means boats both ways.

Again this is an area where the other PCs already have some info IIRC.

[LeSwordfish]

Would Bardhyl be aware that it's possible to navigate the mere with a shallow boat, if you know the routes?

[rax]

Would Bardhyl be aware that it's possible to navigate the mere with a shallow boat, if you know the routes? Probably. I don't have him down as ever having operated out of the Mere, but the fact that swamp people (and outlaws?) live there and use boats is likely known to him.

@LCP

I've taken the liberty of reading up old threads concerning the drug trade as far back as the business with No-Nose, but obviously a bunch of definitive information about the Prince's involvement that's there won't be known to Bardhyl until someone like Sieghard or Ludo tells him outright. Another reason to try and get them in a room together. :smallbiggrin:

[-Sentinel-]

Pretty good chance the crimson shade trees were picked clean by the locusts.

Unless the toxins in the leaves killed or deterred them. That is, after all, the entire purpose of natural drugs and toxins. Only humans are dumb enough to get high on coca or poppy or cannabis and say: "Duuuude, that was fun! Let's do that again!" :smallbiggrin:

[LCP]

If the locusts started near Manann's Keep, then Last Water is pretty much at 90 degrees to this swarm's direction of travel.


Lady Irene's comments, in particular, spoke of such phenomenal ignorance that Elsa wondered why in Sigmar's name she had even been invited to this council

https://i.imgflip.com/3070d8.jpg?a469800

[rax]

That's good news! Instead of food, everyone can now be hopped up on drugs instead! It's calming and slimming!

(Though IIRC Crimson Shade is actually more along the lines of a combat drug :smallbiggrin: )

[LeSwordfish]

If the locusts started near Manann's Keep, then Last Water is pretty much at 90 degrees to this swarm's direction of travel.

Maybe they came from Nath, actually, that's more or less on that line.

[rax]

@LCP

Would an OOC Gossip test suffice for Bardhyl to dig up information about the three ships taken by the Ghost and what they might have been carrying? The test would entail hitting the docks, spreading some silver or buying drinks, and asking around among people who might be in the know, e.g. dockers, other ship captains, any actual officials...

[LCP]

Sure, give me a roll!

[rax]

Gossip test [roll0] vs. 78 (Fel 58, Gossip +20) or 88 (if Streetwise is applicable)

FP re-roll if needed [roll1]

[-Sentinel-]

Could be interesting to develop a ritual spell that can destroy the Book or, if that's not doable, otherwise keep its power in check (e.g. send it back into the Realm of Chaos, strike blind anyone who attempts to read it, etc.). Success would change the destiny of the Reaches, and it's just the kind of ambitious undertaking that feels appropriate for the late game.

That's months of work, though. If Sforza intends to keep Elsa locked up, I'll need another PC. (I have a concept for a character who can do things and go places that the other characters, being too well-known or high-status, cannot.)

[LCP]

Can't say I'm not curious there, but I'm not sure there's much threat of Sforza keeping her locked up if she's doing what he wants.

[-Sentinel-]

Can't say I'm not curious there, but I'm not sure there's much threat of Sforza keeping her locked up if she's doing what he wants.
Ah, okay. I'm kind of confused about her current status... Is her contract still in effect? To my knowledge, Sforza has never locked up Al-Makir in his quarters "until you balance my budget".

My concept for another PC was Sforza's agent referred only as "our man" (the one who sabotaged Evatt's land ship (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19622932&postcount=1175)) infiltrating the cult of the Jackal. Looks like that won't be needed after all.



"Does the Bellona Myrmidia not tell us, the goddess helps those who help themselves?"

Sforza arched a skeptical eyebrow at him. "Does it?"

"It's in there somewhere," Barbaro promised.
Hah. :smallbiggrin:

[LCP]

Generally if people want rid of you they'd lock you out rather than in. I'd assume that unless Sforza tells you he's releasing you from his service, he's not released you from his service.

[LeSwordfish]

Trying to destroy the book might force Nahorek's hand interestingly, rather than sitting in the pyramid chucking tribulations at us.

[-Sentinel-]

Generally if people want rid of you they'd lock you out rather than in. I'd assume that unless Sforza tells you he's releasing you from his service, he's not released you from his service.
Right. Just wanted to make sure she was still getting paid, but I suppose she is. :smalltongue:



Trying to destroy the book might force Nahorek's hand interestingly, rather than sitting in the pyramid chucking tribulations at us.
Hell, destroying the Book might attract the attention of Nagash himself. :smalleek:


@ everyone but LCP, any idea what the ritual should do? The simplest, most direct method would be a souped-up version of Ruin and Destruction that also affects magical items. (Elsa doesn't know the Ruin and Destruction spell, but she'd learn it during the months-long process of creating the ritual.)

But we could also consider more outlandish ideas, such as sending the book to the realm of Khorne (just to deny it to Tzeentch), or somehow cursing the Book so that not even Nahorek can use it.

[TheSummoner]

I don't think destroying the book is a realistic option. Elsa's got the potential to check Nahorek, but attempting anything against the book pits her magic against the power of Nagash. You could count on one hand all of the characters in the entire setting with any real chance of succeeding at that and all of them are cold blooded (...and the only one who could definitely do it is technically no-blooded given that he kroaked).

That's not to say other options aren't also risky. The book is at least somewhat sentient, has a will of its own (or is at least magically guided by Nagash's subconscious will), and is able to defend itself. Trying to destroy it would definitely provoke a magical response, but even something like trying to directly ward it against being used has the potential to. Safest option is something that will contain it without directly affecting the book itself. Second best is trying to ward it something that will utterly annihilate anyone who tries to actually use, read, or even touch it. I'd definitely recommend probing the effects of using magic that doesn't cause harm to the book on the book before doing anything like that though. Trying to destroy it means that even if Elsa did somehow come up with something that would succeed, she'd have to deal with the book going full Chernobyl on her and everything else in the area while she tries to perform the ritual.


But we could also consider more outlandish ideas, such as sending the book to the realm of Khorne

Hilarious, but I can definitely see it backfiring. Khorne takes notice and decides that it's an insult, for example.

[-Sentinel-]

I don't think destroying the book is a realistic option. Elsa's got the potential to check Nahorek, but attempting anything against the book pits her magic against the power of Nagash.
Generally speaking, I think an active attack will trump a passive defense, or at least requires a lesser amount of power to succeed. To destroy something Nagash created is not the same as pitting one's power against Nagash's, unless Nagash himself directly intervenes to defend his creation.

Also remember that the Illuminated Order managed to send the Book (along with the rest of their library) into the Realm of Chaos, so there's definitely precedent for weaker wizards messing with the Book in a way Nagash wouldn't like.

[RossN]

Even if it doesn't work trying to destroy the book is worth the effort. If nothing else it will allow us to take the offensive and given Jarla has been feeling especially powerless recently she's all in favour of that.

I also think it probably will impact Nahorek given his link to it. Hell he might even flee in terror if we prove capable of doing something like this. :smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

Also remember that the Illuminated Order managed to send the Book (along with the rest of their library) into the Realm of Chaos, so there's definitely precedent for weaker wizards messing with the Book in a way Nagash wouldn't like.

We don't know how the book reacted to that. The only member of the Illuminated Order whose fate we know is Nicodemus and we don't know how he ended up that way. Maybe the book reacted to the magic that tore the Library free of reality and turned him into a wraith. Maybe it didn't react or it did but he avoided the effects of it and he became a wraith as a result of his own meddling.

Even if we assume the best case scenario and the book didn't react to the entire library it was in being dragged into the Realm of Chaos, then it's still an issue of direct action vs indirect. Elsa's tried to destroy the book before and the book defended itself. Hit it with a spear and the spear catches fire. Hit it with magic and it hits you back with magic of its own. If she throws something bigger at it, it's certain to react in kind. This isn't something that can be brute forced without it fighting back and even if Nagash isn't physically present or actively intervening, it's still his spells and magic protecting it. I seriously doubt that she can contend with whatever wards he built into it. And that's not meant as any sort of judgement on her abilities, because I don't think Teclis would do any better. Kroak definitely could. Mazdamundi is the next best option. Anyone up for a trip to Lustria? Hola skinks!

No? Fine. I imagine that the spells warding the thing also would trigger on any sort of attempt to mess with the wards themselves... Whether undoing them or adding additional unwanted spells... Which is why something indirect would be safer. There's not much difference in the end result of warding the book to incinerate anyone who opens it and putting the book in a box and warding the box to incinerate anyone who opens it, but the box is a lot less likely to get angry about it.

[RossN]

Frankly if we are going to do this I think we have to aim for destroying the thing and not simply trying to make it harder to read. That seems like kicking the can down the road.

Trying to destroy the book will force Naorek to react to our timetable not his own. Even if he thinks we can't do it he'll still be unwilling to take the risk. That alone seems like a big win.

[LCP]

Just to chime in on a few points where it might be helpful:

1. Trying to define what your final spell should do, then going straight into the RoS ritual rules to create it is probably doing things the hard way. You could research the question of what might be likely to work IC before committing to it.

2.


Also remember that the Illuminated Order managed to send the Book (along with the rest of their library) into the Realm of Chaos, so there's definitely precedent for weaker wizards messing with the Book in a way Nagash wouldn't like.

The Illuminated Order didn't send it there, they were sent. I was assuming this was Elsa's ulterior motive for suggesting Harmugstahl.

3.


There's not much difference in the end result of warding the book to incinerate anyone who opens it and putting the book in a box and warding the box to incinerate anyone who opens it, but the box is a lot less likely to get angry about it.

With respect to what Sforza's asking for - get rid of this thing so it stops blighting my land - better security doesn't achieve anything. Of course, you guys may not agree with his perspective of what's causing what, but if Elsa wants to keep him happy, that's the objective she needs to appear to work towards.

4. The default IC position among Old Worlders is that Nagash is dead, and has been dead for about 2,500 years (as Father Hechsler put it, head, hammer, boom). Your characters might be questioning how dead is dead with everything they've seen, but I just thought that was worth making clear.

[-Sentinel-]

1. Trying to define what your final spell should do, then going straight into the RoS ritual rules to create it is probably doing things the hard way. You could research the question of what might be likely to work IC before committing to it.
That's a good point. Anyway, Elsa can't begin researching a ritual until she gets a skill mastery in Arcane Language (Magick).



The Illuminated Order didn't send it there, they were sent. I was assuming this was Elsa's ulterior motive for suggesting Harmugstahl.
Oooh right. Sorry. There's a lot of history to keep track of, and it's scattered over a decade's worth of game threads. :smallredface:



4. The default IC position among Old Worlders is that Nagash is dead, and has been dead for about 2,500 years (as Father Hechsler put it, head, hammer, boom). Your characters might be questioning how dead is dead with everything they've seen, but I just thought that was worth making clear.
Fair.

[LCP]

Oooh right. Sorry. There's a lot of history to keep track of, and it's scattered over a decade's worth of game threads. :smallredface:

I just thought that was an important point not to let slip by, considering it's one ritual to deal with the book that you already know quite a lot about. Elsa read the notes for its research (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23767064&postcount=290) and had dreams of it being performed. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23289412&postcount=942)

[-Sentinel-]

Oh I'd forgotten all about that! This is tremendously useful, thank you.


Edit: Oh wait, it requires nine sacrifices. Human sacrifice is not a path Elsa is going down. We'll come up with something else.

Still, Harmugstahl may be a useful location for many reasons.

[LCP]

Yeah, if you have the time I would recommend going back and re-reading the bits of the IC that deal with the Brethren of the Silver Tower.

[rax]

Sorry for going AWOL - had mucho work to deal with coming back from my holidays, plus thinking about Bardhyl's next move. IC post will be up tomorrow.

[LCP]

Plotting the path ahead: short-term, it seems like we've got a few strands to wrap up.

Ludo's conversation with Hieronymus - not sure if Ludo has any more to say after Hieronymus' last answer. Hieronymus hasn't given a concrete answer yet on whether he wants to go to Painford. He might need some time to think, but while his Precious Books are still here I'd assume he still needs some persuading. Not sure how much time you want to give him.
Elsa talking to Abdul about where to set up the Nagash Lab - feel free to catch up with him in his office.
Bardhyl talking to Hieronymus - sounds like he wants to do that on the morning of the 28th?


Beyond that, I'd like to get ready to take IC time in some longer steps. Obviously we still have some PC travel and settling-in to resolve in the near future (Ludo back to Painford, Elsa to wherever she's going), but if you guys want to think about any medium-term plans for Sommerzeit, now's a good time.

[rax]

Bardhyl talking to Hieronymus - sounds like he wants to do that on the morning of the 28th?


Beyond that, I'd like to get ready to take IC time in some longer steps. Obviously we still have some PC travel and settling-in to resolve in the near future (Ludo back to Painford, Elsa to wherever she's going), but if you guys want to think about any medium-term plans for Sommerzeit, now's a good time. Yes, that's the idea. After all he's been up to on the 27th I assumed that it would be too late to try and meet with Hieronymous, not least because he doesn't really know Bardhyl, so as far as Bardhyl knows, he might get nowhere if he just rocks up and starts knocking on Hieronymous' door. I was actually considering having Bardhyl write a note requesting a meeting and sending one of his men to deliver it.

For Sommerzeit, I expect Bardhyl to continue developing plans and make some serious effort to find allies to work with him against the Prince. Ideally he wants to win over Ludo & co to his cause, and he'll want to keep in touch with Wadim and let him know what he's up to. And of course, there's the minor matter of dealing with Nahorek as well...

[-Sentinel-]

If I remember correctly, Caerfort has a ruined fortress, correct?

[LCP]

A ruined tower/pigeon roost, yes.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo's current priority is to go home to painford, and set himself to protecting things and people there. I think leaving on a boat (if there is one) makes sense, probably on the morning of the 28th. I would more strongly encourage Hieronymous to come, but can't imagine Sieghard would be enthusiastic about bringing an extra mouth to feed in. I think probably letting Hieronymous stay where he is - with the support structures of the temple - is best, assuming Sforza has forgotten he "banished" him.

I'm not sure that's a full Sommerzeit, but should get me through a few weeks at least.

Ludo could reasonably be persuaded by Bardhyl's request to turn against Sforza. I think now is a challenging time for that (not a great time for a regime change, a famine) - it would help if Bardhyl/Elsa could provide some clear examples of how the Sforza's are going to mismanage things. Is Elsa planning to tell the other PCs/Ludo what happened in the meeting? If so, we can perhaps assume that happens the evening of the 27th.

[RossN]

If we are actually considering regime change (and I'll believe it when I see it :smalltongue:) Jarla might be more hesitant than usual about bumping off Irene. If she actually is with child (and I'll believe that when I see it too) Jarla would have qualms about offing a pregnant woman, even one she'd otherwise be willing to assassinate.

[TheSummoner]

I don't think that's much of a concern. Even if it happens, Irene will see to it herself even if she has to poison herself to do it.

And really, the only thing stopping Sieghard from having already dealt with her is lack of a way to get away with it. As for the prince, that's not something he'd be thinking of, but OOC, I do think it would be necessary if Irene were to die suddenly. And messily.

[-Sentinel-]

If we are actually considering regime change (and I'll believe it when I see it :smalltongue:) Jarla might be more hesitant than usual about bumping off Irene. If she actually is with child (and I'll believe that when I see it too) Jarla would have qualms about offing a pregnant woman, even one she'd otherwise be willing to assassinate.
Much as we all hate Irene, she doesn't strictly need to die for the coup to be successful. It would be a simple matter to banish her from the Broken Reaches on pain of death. She does have a powerful family back in Tobaro (what was their name again?), but I doubt they'd launch a military expedition just to put their daughter on the throne of some far-flung colony.

But if we're talking about coups, I'm still of the opinion that we don't have enough military strength at our disposal to fill a power vacuum left by the Prince's death. The Thorns and the Vrani may be good at guerilla warfare in the countryside, but not so much at taking and holding a city against all the forces Carraciolo can muster.

[rax]

If you'll recall, LCP made it clear earlier that there are plenty of men with military experience in the Reaches that could be brought together to fight Carraciolo, and that's assuming he's even capable of maintaining control of any of Sforza's military other than the Iron Company.

Obviously it will require financial, moral, and military leadership to take the Reaches from Sforza and any successor who tries to keep on fighting in his name, but that's true of any coup.

[TheSummoner]

Who said it had to be done openly? Accidents happen. Hard for them to stop us if they don't catch on to whose behind it.

[LCP]

She does have a powerful family back in Tobaro (what was their name again?)

De Vela.


Dividends last collected on 16th Pflugzeit (23 crowns, 6 schillings and 10 pennies), which was for a period of slightly more than one month (since 9th Jahrdrung). Based on a total investment of 190 gc.

For simplicity's sake in the future, maybe it would be best to auto-collect this income at the end of each month, just like Elsa's wage?

The term of Elsa's agreement with Suzana actually ran out in Pflugzeit. If she wants to keep profiteering she'll have to renegotiate (and probably put more money in).

[-Sentinel-]

The term of Elsa's agreement with Suzana actually ran out in Pflugzeit. If she wants to keep profiteering she'll have to renegotiate (and probably put more money in).
Ah, okay. I thought her investment was like purchasing shares of a company.

Edit: Elsa is investing 150 gc. I assume this replaces her previous investment, instead of being added to it?

[LCP]

Yes. If it helps, don't think of it as Elsa owning shares - there's no stock exchange in the Reaches and no publicly-traded companies. Elsa helped Suzana grow her business, and Suzana paid her back with interest, but didn't promise to keep paying her forever. To make Suzana's business a permanent source of income, you'd probably have to get more involved.

[rax]

@LCP

Both Harmugstahl and Guldun are on the hex map. Does that mean Bardhyl would know where and what these locations are? Or will it require a skill test, and if so vs. which skill?

[LCP]

The hex map is kind of a god's-eye view, since it's the direct output of the Renegade Crowns build-a-setting thread. I think Bardhyl might have heard either name in passing as old ruins out in the Karst, but he's unlikely to know more or to have visited them.

Of course, to get the full lowdown on Harmugstahl he can just ask one of the other PCs.

[rax]

Righto. At least Bardhyl's now got a reason to start interviewing the other PCs about the Book. I imagine questions regarding Harmugstahl will flow quite naturally from that.

Guldun isn't a location that's come up earlier in the game though, is it?

[-Sentinel-]

Righto. At least Bardhyl's now got a reason to start interviewing the other PCs about the Book. I imagine questions regarding Harmugstahl will flow quite naturally from that.
Not sure about how naturally. My memory may be faulty, but I don't think Harmugstahl is one of the locations where the Book has been (unlike Kheneb, Nath, Gilbertus' Manse, and the Lost Library).



Guldun isn't a location that's come up earlier in the game though, is it?
I don't believe it has. In fact, I don't know if our characters are even aware of Guldun.

[rax]

Harmugstahl is connected to the Illuminated Order which is connected to the Lost Library which is connected to the book. I think Bardhyl can find a reason to bring up Harmugstahl.

[RossN]

@-Sentinel- Jarla is looking to go into business of some sort in the medium/long-term so she might need Elsa's help there (both advice and possibly a loan - Jarla is functionally broke and she can't ask Muzio and Irene for money since they'll probably want to know why she is looking for a second job.)

[-Sentinel-]

Harmugstahl is connected to the Illuminated Order which is connected to the Lost Library which is connected to the book. I think Bardhyl can find a reason to bring up Harmugstahl.
I once had Elsa write down a history of magic in the Broken Reaches (I think that was after we defeated Nahorek at Nath). Pretty sure she left it with Hieronymus. It would mention Harmugstahl.



@-Sentinel- Jarla is looking to go into business of some sort in the medium/long-term so she might need Elsa's help there (both advice and possibly a loan - Jarla is functionally broke and she can't ask Muzio and Irene for money since they'll probably want to know why she is looking for a second job.)
Absolutely. Jarla can just ask for it. Elsa wouldn't even charge interest; just pay back whenever, and if Jarla never does, it probably means there are bigger problems to worry about.

[LCP]

She signed her name at the bottom of the new contract.

"Hmm, let's add a clause"

not the traditional order of operations there

[-Sentinel-]

not the traditional order of operations there
Alright, smartass, I edited my post. :smallwink:


My Sommerzeit plans: go to Caerfort with my girlies Tatiana, Olga and Khalida and start studying ways to destroy, banish, or otherwise make unusable the Book of Nagash. Presumably, this phase won't take the whole month; once Elsa has determined what can and cannot be done, we'll be ready to start the ritual creation process, which involves player-GM collaboration.

Still need a degree of Arcane Language (Magick), though. Is that an elite advance if Elsa is no longer in a spellcaster career?

[LCP]

Just a reminder (because it seems quite likely it got swamped in the 5-way split), I'm waiting on Ludo to finish talking to Hieronymus before moving on to him leaving town.

[LeSwordfish]

I had indeed missed that, sorry. Ludo will go to the temple to pray today and then leave for painford tomorrow, on a boat if there is one. If you're happy for me to I'll write up something about his prayer at the temple later when I'm not on my phone- not engaging with any NPCs or getting in any trouble or anything, so can be timesplit very easily.

[RossN]

I actually feel a tuny bit sorry for Irene there. :smallfrown:

Mind you Jarla is still going to be avoiding her in the near future. Besides talking to Elsa about business (before she leaves) Jarla might also want to talk to Al-Makir and Barbaro - the former for financial advice and the later because she does need another friend in the court besides the unpopular Elsa!

[LCP]

It's a lonely life, being The Worst.

For Abdul, it'll probably help to be as specific as possible with what you're asking - he's stretched very thin and it's a very broad question.

For Barbaro, I imagine Jarla won't have any difficulty making friends with him. Is there any particular information or favour you're looking for?

[RossN]

With Abdul I supppose Jarla's looking for advice as much as anything. The famine closes off a lot of potential busineses - buying part of an inn or tavern for instance is unlikely given there will be no food and probably little drink. As someone who has been around a lot Abdul probably has a much better idea of what is even possible during lean times.

I realise that isn't very specific but Jarla's skills aren't all that marketable - she can act and dance but Savonne seems a bit small to set up an opera or theatre, she's tried teaching fencing but there aren't the numbers to make a living there and with everyone going to be looking at horses for food she can't open Honest Jarla's Used Horses. :smallredface:

With Barbaro besides just general gossip and having someone to talk to Jarla is looking for help learning Tilean. She really should learn at least some of the language if she is going to stay interacting with Tileans!

[LCP]

I think for talking to Abdul, the question there's still very broad. If you're just asking 'what would be a good way to make money at the moment' then the answer to that is going to be very different depending on who's asking, and Abdul doesn't know Jarla's personal circumstances so precisely. Are you looking for investment opportunities? A business to own and run yourself? A job with a wage? What kind of money are you looking for, and how much have you got on hand to get started?

Abdul is running around trying to put out a lot of metaphorical fires right now, so if you go to him with a vague question he's probably going to give you a vague answer and bid you good day.

[RossN]

It's a fair question.

Jarla does want some source of income away from being dependent on the Sforzas. It can't really be a waged job because she already has a boss and there isn't really any way to do that that would be compatitble with her position at court. So setting up a business (or buying an existing one) or investment it has to be. Jarla herself is basically broke but Elsa will give her a loan to help set up.

I guess she'll have to spend more time in the city looking around to see what if anything is availble before going to Abdul for advice. Is there anyone looking to move away from the Reaches to a less locust infested part of the world leaving a shop to close or who needs a partner to help tide things over.

[LCP]

Sounds like a good question for a Gossip test!

[RossN]

Entrepreneurship here I come! :smallcool:

Gossip: [roll0] vs 62

FP reroll: [roll1] vs 62

[LCP]

If I can just make an OOC suggestion - I think maybe you guys would benefit from talking to each other before you go chasing after too many more NPCs.

I put the Ludo travel section up because I felt like LeSwordfish has been waiting for it for a while, but if you want to timesplit or want me to edit to push it back that's fine.

[rax]

That's fair. I'm just having trouble justifying having Bardhyl run into Ludo since Barhdyl's been pretty busy since getting to Savonne and he can't really head up to the castle to speak to Ludo. And of course he doesn't know Ludo's travel plans, so he set up a meeting with Hieronymous on Ludo's last day in town...

As for Elsa and Jarla, they're both at the castle as well and really the only subject he feels comfortable talking about with either of them would be the Jackal or possibly Harmugstahl...which only Elsa knows about anyway. But all in all, Ludo is the person Bardhyl sees as the most likely candidate to talk about both concerning Sforza, the Jackal and the Book. Maybe Sieghard too, but he's in Painford.

@LeSwordfish
If you're interested in getting Bardhyl and Ludo involved in another chat before Ludo goes to Painford, I'm open to any ideas you might have for getting them to meet up.

[-Sentinel-]

As for Elsa and Jarla, they're both at the castle as well and really the only subject he feels comfortable talking about with either of them would be the Jackal or possibly Harmugstahl...which only Elsa knows about anyway.
Elsa is unlikely to spend much time outside the castle without her bodyguard Olga, but once Olga has arrived, they may go out for a drink at a tavern. It'll be Bardhyl's best chance to talk to Elsa.

[LeSwordfish]

Sorry I've not been very present lately, I've been quite under the weather and busy. I'm away on the weekend so will try to properly catch up either tomorrow or on monday.

Sentinel, you may have missed this question before: Is elsa going to tell Ludo about what was discussed at Sforza's meeting? If Bardhyl wants to make a "come join my revolution" pitch to Ludo, that will be much more effective if Ludo believes the Sforzas are going to catastrophically mismanage the famine - otherwise this seems like a pretty bad time to drive instability.

[RossN]

Jarla would definitely like to speak with the others - and she can feel Ludo in on what has happened at the meeting.

I think at this point Jarla believes the principality is probably doomed to collapse with in a few weeks as the famine really takes hold - hence her IC fear that the Sforzas will throw her to the mob as a scapegoat when the famine really starts to bite.

That said I'm not sure a change of government could do much good. Even if we finally banished the Jackal for good and destroyed the book tomorrow the Reaches are going to take generations to recover if they ever do. Heck if the locust attack had happened before Jarla got rid of her unwelcome 'guest' Jarla might well have turned to her out of sheer desperation. :smallfrown:

[rax]

If Bardhyl wants to make a "come join my revolution" pitch to Ludo, that will be much more effective if Ludo believes the Sforzas are going to catastrophically mismanage the famine - otherwise this seems like a pretty bad time to drive instability. Also fair, though Bardhyl's pitch would probably be more along the lines of needing to get rid of both Sforza and the Jackal. Getting Sforza to bring his army to Nath may have been important in winning the first round against the Jackal, but by now it should be clear that Sforza is the biggest hindrance to winning round two, and each delay just gives the Jackal more time to do things like summon a swarm of locusts and cause mass famine. Getting rid of them one at a time just leaves the other in place to make a mess of things for ordinary folk.

[LCP]

Elsa is unlikely to spend much time outside the castle without her bodyguard Olga, but once Olga has arrived, they may go out for a drink at a tavern. It'll be Bardhyl's best chance to talk to Elsa.

Does Elsa not have any motivation to go out and tell her friends what she knows? They have to wait until she happens by?

[LeSwordfish]

I also think we're making things a bit more difficult for ourselves by refusing to metagame, like society ladies that don't want to admit they have free time - I think trying to just coincidentally bump into each other isn't going to work super well.

Ludo is in the city on the evening of the 27th. Should he go and see Elsa and Jarla then? Might she come out to a bar then? How can we make that work to meet up? Are we playing that out or are we just going "...and then Elsa told them everything" and moving on?

Alternatively, Ludo will probably be back in Savonne soon. (Within a week or two) Perhaps Sieghard should come too and we should have a big whole-party conversation? This might take forever if we have to do it in a series of one-on-one conversations.

[RossN]

Did Elsa forget to invite Jarla? I still have to finish her conversation with Abdul but I still think she could make a tavern! :smalltongue:

[-Sentinel-]

Did Elsa forget to invite Jarla? I still have to finish her conversation with Abdul but I still think she could make a tavern! :smalltongue:
Oh, right, she wasn't at the meeting about the Book... I suppose she can join us, yes.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo would know this even if I don't: how much of Last Water's food is imported?

[LCP]

Sorry, forgot this question. Last Water is fairly self-sufficient - its population is small and it has a nice fertile basin around the water source in the middle.

Also to comment on this from the IC:

"If there's just not enough food... does it matter who it goes to? Does it matter which three in five? Whoever took over would need to focus on getting more food, not just giving it out."

Something I think Ludo would understand from his quartermaster-ing - the amount of food it takes to keep e.g. an Iron Company soldier loyal and fighting fit is not the same as the amount it takes just to keep someone from starving.

[LeSwordfish]

Ah, sure! I'm trying to play this conversation as Ludo coming around to Bardhyl's point of view, but I don't want him to just flip on a dime so needs to actually try to make counter-arguments.

[-Sentinel-]

I don't think I have much else to do until Olga arrives and it's time to depart for Caerfort.

Plotting sedition sounds attractive, but I really can't take part. Not with Elsa being the only one among us who might be capable of destroying the Book.

[RossN]

As I said in character Jarla would have been all for sedition previously... but the locust infestation broke any hope she had for the Reaches surviving long term so now she's trying to earn a little coin so that she might be able to escape when Sforza's regime collapses. That and help Elsa's studies of course.

[LCP]

Ah, sure! I'm trying to play this conversation as Ludo coming around to Bardhyl's point of view, but I don't want him to just flip on a dime so needs to actually try to make counter-arguments.

Ah, sorry - just wanted to be sure I wasn't asleep at the wheel when it came to giving you guys that kind of contextual info. Hard for me to tell what's obvious and what's not!

@RossN, I'm curious - what does Jarla mean by the Reaches 'surviving'? Is she talking about Sforza's dynastic project? Or is she picturing Abdul's 40% estimate rising to 100%?

[LeSwordfish]

Ah, sorry - just wanted to be sure I wasn't asleep at the wheel when it came to giving you guys that kind of contextual info. Hard for me to tell what's obvious and what's not!

No that's fair! Some of Ludo's arguments are a bit thin deliberately, but that specific point hadn't occured to me.

[-Sentinel-]

@RossN, I'm curious - what does Jarla mean by the Reaches 'surviving'? Is she talking about Sforza's dynastic project? Or is she picturing Abdul's 40% estimate rising to 100%?
That's a matter I'm curious about, as well. Not just in terms of Jarla's meaning, but also Nahorek's motivations regarding the Reaches. Is he like Nagash, wishing to rule over the dead? Or is he more like the von Carsteins - wishing to rule over the living, and using the dead as foot soldiers to accomplish that goal?

I suppose there's a good chance we'll find out over the next few in-game months.

[LeSwordfish]

I honestly don't know/remember if Ludo has brought it up to the others, but in theory we know Nahorek's goal - it's to take the book and go.

[RossN]

@RossN, I'm curious - what does Jarla mean by the Reaches 'surviving'? Is she talking about Sforza's dynastic project? Or is she picturing Abdul's 40% estimate rising to 100%?

Both.

She thinks the Sforza dynastic project is irrevocably doomed at this point regardless of what the party does or doesn't do though how bloody it ends up being is still open to question.

As to literally everyone dying probably not, but at this point the damage has been so horrendous between the famine, drought, wars and the murder of most the priests that even if Naohorek was permanently destroyed tomorrow it is hard to see the level of civilisation continuing even in shrunken form - subsistence villages yes but not big trading and crafting towns like Savonne or Alvarran. Again not everyone will die but I'd expect to see a lot of people pack up their bags, mercenaries included as the prospects become leaner and leaner.

Hard to feel optimistic at this point. :smallfrown:

[-Sentinel-]

I honestly don't know/remember if Ludo has brought it up to the others, but in theory we know Nahorek's goal - it's to take the book and go.
Wait, when did we (?) learn that? I don't remember it. I thought he merely saw the Book as a tool, not as an end goal.

[LeSwordfish]

Wait, when did we (?) learn that? I don't remember it. I thought he merely saw the Book as a tool, not as an end goal.

Klammenberg told Ludo, back when Ludo captured him.

EDIT: From https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24702210&postcount=306 onwards

[rax]

Both.

She thinks the Sforza dynastic project is irrevocably doomed at this point regardless of what the party does or doesn't do though how bloody it ends up being is still open to question.

As to literally everyone dying probably not, but at this point the damage has been so horrendous between the famine, drought, wars and the murder of most the priests that even if Naohorek was permanently destroyed tomorrow it is hard to see the level of civilisation continuing even in shrunken form - subsistence villages yes but not big trading and crafting towns like Savonne or Alvarran. Again not everyone will die but I'd expect to see a lot of people pack up their bags, mercenaries included as the prospects become leaner and leaner.

Hard to feel optimistic at this point. :smallfrown: Assuming the droughts and desertification do recede once the Jackal is gone, the Reaches will still be fertile farming country and will still have resources such as gold and iron to mine and trade. Even if some people leave, it's likely that others will see land up for grabs and come to settle from outside the Reaches. Additionally, a smaller population means fewer people being forced to survive in the marginal lands, which should help the native population bounce back in a generation or so.

Additionally from the Vrani point of view, if a bunch of farmers leave the Reaches, that will allow them to expand back into the lowlands and graze their herds there, which will aid their recovery.


Klammenberg told Ludo, back when Ludo captured him.

EDIT: From https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24702210&postcount=306 onwards That's very interesting - I hadn't seen that before. It does sound a bit suspicious to me, though. In the mushroom dream visions, Nahorek stuck around to conduct mass sacrifices with/for the book even after the Vrani and the greenskins had been defeated. He could have left with the book any time he wanted, but according to Klammenberg he now just wants to take it back to Nehekara.

I mean, sure, priorities can change after being confined to a tomb for four thousand years, but are there any instances of Nahorek himself offering to leave the Reaches and lift any curses he may have placed upon them in return for the book?

In addition, even if Klammenberg was right, there's the tiny matter of us now knowing that the book is one of the Books of Nagash. It's probably one of the most potent and outright evil artifacts in the mortal world. Letting Nahorek take possession of the book and use it as he (or Nagash) wills seems...unconscionable.

[-Sentinel-]

but are there any instances of Nahorek himself offering to leave the Reaches and lift any curses he may have placed upon them in return for the book?
Come to think of it, no, there haven't been. We only have Klammenberg's word, and he could have been lying (or ignorant of the full picture).

But whatever may be Nahorek's designs, keeping the Book out of his hands will help frustrate them. And as a bonus, if we actually manage to destroy it, it'll make Nagash's End Times miniature inaccurate, since that miniature has all nine of his books. :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

If we actually destroy the book I want a video of LCP snapping one of the books off his own nagash miniature and burning it.

I'm not a hundred percent sure how much I trust the mystical visions vs Klammenberg. This may be a non-starter but it seems like an interesting thing to discuss IC, so I'll bring it up. I sort of wish Ludo hadn't been so down on Klammenberg when he captured him - I think there's an extremely interesting alt-history version of The Bloody Crown where Ludo doesn't back down on going to Nahorek with Klammenberg. For one thing, Adelbert would probably still be alive. While capturing Klammenberg was one of my favourite things we've done in the campaign so far, rereading that scene I sort of wince at Ludo choosing to fight rather than try and work together.

[RossN]

Assuming the droughts and desertification do recede once the Jackal is gone, the Reaches will still be fertile farming country and will still have resources such as gold and iron to mine and trade. Even if some people leave, it's likely that others will see land up for grabs and come to settle from outside the Reaches. Additionally, a smaller population means fewer people being forced to survive in the marginal lands, which should help the native population bounce back in a generation or so.

Additionally from the Vrani point of view, if a bunch of farmers leave the Reaches, that will allow them to expand back into the lowlands and graze their herds there, which will aid their recovery.

That's very interesting - I hadn't seen that before. It does sound a bit suspicious to me, though. In the mushroom dream visions, Nahorek stuck around to conduct mass sacrifices with/for the book even after the Vrani and the greenskins had been defeated. He could have left with the book any time he wanted, but according to Klammenberg he now just wants to take it back to Nehekara.

I mean, sure, priorities can change after being confined to a tomb for four thousand years, but are there any instances of Nahorek himself offering to leave the Reaches and lift any curses he may have placed upon them in return for the book?

In addition, even if Klammenberg was right, there's the tiny matter of us now knowing that the book is one of the Books of Nagash. It's probably one of the most potent and outright evil artifacts in the mortal world. Letting Nahorek take possession of the book and use it as he (or Nagash) wills seems...unconscionable.

I don't see any reason to assume the desertification will reverse even without the Jackal actively making things worse.

Even if it does though we're still looking a catastropic famine on top of already ongoing disasters. I'm not saying a recovery impossible but I think we're talking generations even centuries - heck my country still hasn't regained the population we had before the potato famine 170 years ago.

[RossN]

If we actually destroy the book I want a video of LCP snapping one of the books off his own nagash miniature and burning it.

I'm not a hundred percent sure how much I trust the mystical visions vs Klammenberg. This may be a non-starter but it seems like an interesting thing to discuss IC, so I'll bring it up. I sort of wish Ludo hadn't been so down on Klammenberg when he captured him - I think there's an extremely interesting alt-history version of The Bloody Crown where Ludo doesn't back down on going to Nahorek with Klammenberg. For one thing, Adelbert would probably still be alive. While capturing Klammenberg was one of my favourite things we've done in the campaign so far, rereading that scene I sort of wince at Ludo choosing to fight rather than try and work together.

That was my fault. I made the assumption both in and out of character that Gunda was trying to rescue Klammenberg. That she was working for Irene never occurred to me. :smallfrown:

[-Sentinel-]

I think there's an extremely interesting alt-history version of The Bloody Crown where Ludo doesn't back down on going to Nahorek with Klammenberg. For one thing, Adelbert would probably still be alive. While capturing Klammenberg was one of my favourite things we've done in the campaign so far, rereading that scene I sort of wince at Ludo choosing to fight rather than try and work together.
Sometimes I, too, wonder about the paths not taken. Remember that time, very early on, when Elsa really impressed Kelda Wave-Born with her magic? If Elsa had decided to seek employment with Jarl Rorik, we could conceivably have won the war for the northern coalition and put the hill people in a much better position to oppose the Jackal.

But of course, back then, we didn't have the full picture.

[TheSummoner]

I honestly don't know/remember if Ludo has brought it up to the others, but in theory we know Nahorek's goal - it's to take the book and go.

I don't buy it. Klammenberg bit off way more than he could chew with Nahorek, so I can't help but be skeptical of what he thought he knew. Even if the book would ultimately compel Nahorek to go south and reunite it with Nagash, there's no reason he couldn't take a kingdom sized legion of the dead with him when he went.


That was my fault. I made the assumption both in and out of character that Gunda was trying to rescue Klammenberg. That she was working for Irene never occurred to me. :smallfrown:

Really? Killing Klammenberg was the right call, but I feel like Gunda made it pretty clear what was going on.


“Oh, one other thing. I’m supposed to give you a message from the princess,” she said. “Lady Sforza says, fire!”

[LCP]

She thinks the Sforza dynastic project is irrevocably doomed at this point regardless of what the party does or doesn't do though how bloody it ends up being is still open to question.

As to literally everyone dying probably not, but at this point the damage has been so horrendous between the famine, drought, wars and the murder of most the priests that even if Naohorek was permanently destroyed tomorrow it is hard to see the level of civilisation continuing even in shrunken form - subsistence villages yes but not big trading and crafting towns like Savonne or Alvarran. Again not everyone will die but I'd expect to see a lot of people pack up their bags, mercenaries included as the prospects become leaner and leaner.

So again, just to provide IC context and not to try to butt in on how you choose to RP Jarla (I can see how being from a relatively privileged background she might react more strongly to hardship):

We're still in the post-SoC timeline in this game (we've been running that long!), so Jarla has already left one apocalypse behind. The Empire that's there for her to go back to is one whose northern half is a smouldering wreck - but people are still carrying on.
In terms of the population crash Abdul is predicting, it's important to stress - as I think he did IC - that he could be wrong. He doesn't have good records, he's making estimates based off what he can gather from verbal reports in the ~few days following the arrival of the swarm.
If he's right, the world has lived through this kind of population crash before, without the collapse of urban civilisation, or even necessarily a change of ruler. To take real world examples - the Black Death didn’t kill London, and the Great Famine of 1315 didn’t kill off the Plantagenet dynasty.
The Old World has had its analogies to those events (particularly the Black Death), and again Altdorf, Middenheim etc. are still here. Jarla may not be a big history nerd but she would probably be aware that e.g. Nuln is a couple of thousand years old and has survived plague, orcs and civil war.
Coming back to the point of regimes surviving - Sforza’s response is obviously selfish and callous and brutal, but it’s not that different to what historical rulers in similar situations did. And again, the Old World has its analogies (e.g. you don’t get Emperors called things like Bloody Beatrice the Monumentally Cruel for nothing). If you’re waiting for his reign to collapse on its own, then it’s important to keep in mind that just because his plans are immoral or unjust doesn’t mean they won’t work.

Overall, if anyone has any questions about any more info I can provide OOC about the general famine situation, please do ask! It’s a complicated situation to convey and I feel like most of my IC posts lately are too close to essay-length already, but I do want to make sure that you guys can know what your characters would know.


I sort of wish Ludo hadn't been so down on Klammenberg when he captured him - I think there's an extremely interesting alt-history version of The Bloody Crown where Ludo doesn't back down on going to Nahorek with Klammenberg. For one thing, Adelbert would probably still be alive. While capturing Klammenberg was one of my favourite things we've done in the campaign so far, rereading that scene I sort of wince at Ludo choosing to fight rather than try and work together.

I won’t lie, that was the default path I was planning for at the time. I didn’t necessarily expect that Ludo would just go along with Klammenberg when he asked (and I loved that Ludo called his bluff on the ‘flesh eating beetles’), but I really didn’t expect that you guys would prioritise killing him over your own survival when Gunda jumped you. My expectation was that you’d accept his help in that fight and then have to deal with him on more even terms afterwards.

[LeSwordfish]

I won’t lie, that was the default path I was planning for at the time. I didn’t necessarily expect that Ludo would just go along with Klammenberg when he asked (and I loved that Ludo called his bluff on the ‘flesh eating beetles’), but I really didn’t expect that you guys would prioritise killing him over your own survival when Gunda jumped you. My expectation was that you’d accept his help in that fight and then have to deal with him on more even terms afterwards.

A certain amount of this was, honestly, OOC... well, not spite per se, but coming out of Nath I was personally very aware that we needed to guard our achievements very carefully. You've been sufficiently tricksy in the past that I was working on the assumption that if we gave Klammenberg an inch he would take a mile, vanish, and we'd be right back to square one.

[RossN]

I don't buy it. Klammenberg bit off way more than he could chew with Nahorek, so I can't help but be skeptical of what he thought he knew. Even if the book would ultimately compel Nahorek to go south and reunite it with Nagash, there's no reason he couldn't take a kingdom sized legion of the dead with him when he went.



Really? Killing Klammenberg was the right call, but I feel like Gunda made it pretty clear what was going on.

It's been so long ago that I can't quite remember but I think that might have made me suppose that Irene was in league with Klammenberg if anything.

[RossN]

So again, just to provide IC context and not to try to butt in on how you choose to RP Jarla (I can see how being from a relatively privileged background she might react more strongly to hardship):

We're still in the post-SoC timeline in this game (we've been running that long!), so Jarla has already left one apocalypse behind. The Empire that's there for her to go back to is one whose northern half is a smouldering wreck - but people are still carrying on.
In terms of the population crash Abdul is predicting, it's important to stress - as I think he did IC - that he could be wrong. He doesn't have good records, he's making estimates based off what he can gather from verbal reports in the ~few days following the arrival of the swarm.
If he's right, the world has lived through this kind of population crash before, without the collapse of urban civilisation, or even necessarily a change of ruler. To take real world examples - the Black Death didn’t kill London, and the Great Famine of 1315 didn’t kill off the Plantagenet dynasty.
The Old World has had its analogies to those events (particularly the Black Death), and again Altdorf, Middenheim etc. are still here. Jarla may not be a big history nerd but she would probably be aware that e.g. Nuln is a couple of thousand years old and has survived plague, orcs and civil war.
Coming back to the point of regimes surviving - Sforza’s response is obviously selfish and callous and brutal, but it’s not that different to what historical rulers in similar situations did. And again, the Old World has its analogies (e.g. you don’t get Emperors called things like Bloody Beatrice the Monumentally Cruel for nothing). If you’re waiting for his reign to collapse on its own, then it’s important to keep in mind that just because his plans are immoral or unjust doesn’t mean they won’t work.

Overall, if anyone has any questions about any more info I can provide OOC about the general famine situation, please do ask! It’s a complicated situation to convey and I feel like most of my IC posts lately are too close to essay-length already, but I do want to make sure that you guys can know what your characters would know.

I do get that and yes kingdoms did bounce back over very long periods. It took England nearly three hundred years to regain the population it had before the Black Death and Ireland still hasn't recovered from the Great Famine. So yes the Reaches might stage some sort of recovery after many generations.

On the other hand the Reaches have problems that otl real life Europe or even the Empire didn't have. The desertification we've seen has permanently damaged the landscape and I doubt even getting rid of Naohorek will change that. It happened over a much longer timescale and without magic in North Africa after all.

The other issues are that even before the disasters of the past couple of years the Reaches were kind of a backwater and they don't seem to have much that can't be gotten elsewhere. So I do think traders might up sticks in a way they historically didn't for London or Genoa or, to stick with the setting, Nuln.

As for Sforza I'm not discounting his ruthlessness at all but he doesn't have the social and cultural factors that the European rulers had during the Black death that tied them to the land and gave them a bit of a safety net. He's a warlord who is power largely because of a mercenary and army and will those mercenaries stick around as the famine gets worse and trade dies down because the river has dried up or will they take their valuable and portable skills elsewhere? I know if I was a sellsword I'd probably be considering my options at some point and whether there might be more gold and certainly more opportunities than trying to squeeze a penniless, starving border kingdom.

I don't think and Jarla doesn't think that Savonne or Alvarann will literally disappear as anything other than ruins but she does think that they'll be hollow shells of what they are now and that any sort of recovery is well beyond her lifetime. That's why she's not very enthusiastic about removing the Sforzas; not only does she think they'll fail on their own she think things are so bleak it wouldn't meaningfully change much even if they were overthrown.


I won’t lie, that was the default path I was planning for at the time. I didn’t necessarily expect that Ludo would just go along with Klammenberg when he asked (and I loved that Ludo called his bluff on the ‘flesh eating beetles’), but I really didn’t expect that you guys would prioritise killing him over your own survival when Gunda jumped you. My expectation was that you’d accept his help in that fight and then have to deal with him on more even terms afterwards.

As I said I thought and Adelbert thought that the attack was a rescue mission to re-capture Klammenberg rather than an unrelated party which was why he wanted to make sure Klammenberg was dead before that could happen and I definitely didn't expect Gunda to be so deadly in combat. Besides which it is your own fault for making Klammenberg so untrustworthy and hateful to the PCs that cooperating with him was not a plausible outcome! :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

she think things are so bleak it wouldn't meaningfully change much even if they were overthrown.

I guess this is the point that's giving me trouble OOC at the moment, and why Ludo's question to Bardhyl is "so what would you do then if you're so smart" - I'm not sure I see a way out of this one for even a well-managed government.That's probably my lack of historical knowledge speaking, but also it's not like Ludo's heard of a plantagenet.

[LCP]

I don't think and Jarla doesn't think that Savonne or Alvarann will literally disappear as anything other than ruins but she does think that they'll be hollow shells of what they are now and that any sort of recovery is well beyond her lifetime. That's why she's not very enthusiastic about removing the Sforzas; not only does she think they'll fail on their own she think things are so bleak it wouldn't meaningfully change much even if they were overthrown.

OK, I think I understand a bit better now what she's saying. For sure, measured in terms of population numbers, you might expect any recovery to be slow and painful - I was just a bit thrown off by Jarla talking about the Reaches 'dying' or 'not surviving long term', because to my way of thinking a city or region that experiences a sharp drop in population hasn't 'died'. And while I picked London as my example for the Black Death there are plenty of much smaller, 'backwater'-y towns you could pick... Ely, Wells, St Davids. Towns in this era tend to exist because they're somewhere that naturally calls for a town, so that even if 100% of the population gets killed or displaced, people are likely to come back to the same spot and rebuild (I think IC that happened to Nuln).

It's definitely true though that the Reaches' problems aren't exactly the same as historical plagues and famines - I'm not trying to make an exact 1-to-1 comparison, just trying to get a sense for why Jarla thinks the way she does... which overall, if I understand you right, is sounding like it's that she thinks the Reaches won't be a fun place to be, rather than that they won't be survivable? Obviously that's not accounting for how much worse things could get, but the position she expressed IC seems to be based on where you are with the damage that's already been done.

Taking off my 'providing context' hat and getting a bit meta - I definitely understand that things look bleak! That's 100% intentional; this is a phase of the campaign where I'm really trying to evoke the apocalyptic atmosphere that people in real-world C16/17th Europe were feeling in the wake of plague and war and all that stuff. If you feel you can tag yourself in this painting (https://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/art-work/the-triumph-of-death/d3d82b0b-9bf2-4082-ab04-66ed53196ccc) then that's the vibe I'm going for.

In terms of what can be done better though, I think that's where you have to believe in yourselves as the heroes of the story - this is an RPG after all. Your PCs may not have all the answers right now, and there might not be a way to save everyone - but you can try, and that's more than Sforza's doing. Maybe trying to distribute food more equitably compared to Sforza's 'spaghetti for my soldiers, straw for my servants' policy would be a radical experiment, but you are the PCs - you can be radical if you choose. And more than that, you can admit where the problem is coming from, and try to do something about it, rather than building a statue of yourselves having already solved it and calling that a job well done. The core question I'd ask is who do you trust to lead you through a time like this - bearing in mind the management of food shortages probably isn't the last judgement call they'll be called upon to make.


Besides which it is your own fault for making Klammenberg so untrustworthy and hateful to the PCs that cooperating with him was not a plausible outcome!

Hey now... untrustworthy I'll give you, but hateful? He was always so polite!

[-Sentinel-]

A certain amount of this was, honestly, OOC... well, not spite per se, but coming out of Nath I was personally very aware that we needed to guard our achievements very carefully. You've been sufficiently tricksy in the past that I was working on the assumption that if we gave Klammenberg an inch he would take a mile, vanish, and we'd be right back to square one.
That was a reasonable assumption. He and Mother Mala have been very slippery. Nahorek doesn't have that many reliable mortal minions, so each one we take away from him is a small victory.



Towns in this era tend to exist because they're somewhere that naturally calls for a town, so that even if 100% of the population gets killed or displaced, people are likely to come back to the same spot and rebuild (I think IC that happened to Nuln).
The Reaches are also strewn with towns that were never repopulated, such as Kheneb-Ptra-Urush, Nath, and what's-its-name in the Pale Waste. It's understandable to fear that Savonne, Manann's Keep or Alvarran could suffer the same fate.



In terms of what can be done better though, I think that's where you have to believe in yourselves as the heroes of the story - this is an RPG after all. Your PCs may not have all the answers right now, and there might not be a way to save everyone - but you can try, and that's more than Sforza's doing. Maybe trying to distribute food more equitably compared to Sforza's 'spaghetti for my soldiers, straw for my servants' policy would be a radical experiment, but you are the PCs - you can be radical if you choose. And more than that, you can admit where the problem is coming from, and try to do something about it, rather than building a statue of yourselves having already solved it and calling that a job well done.
Yep. Elsa has set her goal for the next few in-game months. She will likely need help, because rituals require lots of preparation.

[LeSwordfish]

The Reaches are also strewn with towns that were never repopulated, such as Kheneb-Ptra-Urush, Nath, and what's-its-name in the Pale Waste. It's understandable to fear that Savonne, Manann's Keep or Alvarran could suffer the same fate.

In fairness those were all subject to additional material conditions that prevented them from being repopulated, such as being full of skeletons.

[LCP]

Nahorek doesn't have that many reliable mortal minions, so each one we take away from him is a small victory.

He had even fewer minions who were having second thoughts and wanted to negotiate with you :smalltongue:

Anyway, I feel like I'm distracting you guys from the IC conversation. I don't want to do that - I just wanted to make sure everyone's feet were on the same IC ground, which I think they are.

[-Sentinel-]

In fairness those were all subject to additional material conditions that prevented them from being repopulated, such as being full of skeletons.
Skeletons or not, Kheneb would still be in a swamp, and Nath and that other city would still be in a barren area. Elsa freed Nath from Samira's hold, but I don't picture it coming back to life.



He had even fewer minions who were having second thoughts and wanted to negotiate with you :smalltongue:
Oh. I didn't read that interaction closely, so I didn't realize Klammenberg was thinking about switching sides. I thought he was just bargaining for his life.

Yeah, it's regrettable he had to die. He likely knew a few things we don't. How to speak Nehekharan, for example. I'm also curious about where he came from, his history with the Colleges, his motives for freeing Nahorek, how a man from the Empire even knew about Nahorek in the first place, etc. Guess we'll never know.

[RossN]

Oh. I didn't read that interaction closely, so I didn't realize Klammenberg was thinking about switching sides. I thought he was just bargaining for his life.

Lot of mistakes going round during that period. Besides Adelbert thinking Gunda and Klammenberg were in league he also underestimated how deadly Gunda and her goons would be with fatal results. :smallfrown:


Yeah, it's regrettable he had to die. He likely knew a few things we don't. How to speak Nehekharan, for example. I'm also curious about where he came from, his history with the Colleges, his motives for freeing Nahorek, how a man from the Empire even knew about Nahorek in the first place, etc. Guess we'll never know.


A lot of dead characters I'd love to have seen more of. The other princes and their courts were fascinating and I could easily see an alternate timeline where we had ended up in Putbad in Eberhard's court.

[rax]

In terms of the effects of the famine, I'm not assuming that everything will be back to the way it was within a generation or so. My assumption is that the Reaches will change, but not that we're entering into some sort of death spiral, at least not if we can mitigate the famine and remove the Jackal's influence.

It's also a conceit of the Border Princes setting that this area is settler country. People come here from all over the Old World to make a new start, so I don't believe that this area will remain abandoned for long even if it does end up being depopulated due to death and abandonment. If this area were truly too poor and off the beaten track to be worth settling, people wouldn't have been moving here for the last four thousand years.

Regarding the desertification, I don't expect that to vanish overnight either, but it's my understanding that until the Jackal arrived, the Reaches did not have a desert, and Bardhyl believes that it's the influence of the Jackal that both created the Waste and has caused it to spread. It's certainly gotten worse quickly since he escaped his tomb. Therefore, if we can destroy him and/or the book, there's a chance that the desert will recede and do so much more quickly than it spread. At the very least, the drought is likely to end, which will have an immediate positive effect. This is the Old World, after all, and magic is a thing.

As for who would make a good leader if Sforza is removed or sidelined, my vote goes to Sieghard or Ludo. Bardhyl would only take the reins if there's no other decent candidate. After all, his ambition isn't to rule the Reaches, just to be a guide to his people. In addition, there's probably going to be a great deal of resistance from the non-Vrani if the group tries to enthrone an outlaw barbarian like Bardhyl in Savonne.

[-Sentinel-]

Don't wanna be impatient or anything, but is there a chance we can all be ready to time-skip by the end of this real-life week?

For my part, I'm ready. Anything else that needs to be added to the current convo at the Fish can be time-split.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not sure a timeskip right now is a great idea, not more than a week or so - doesn't seem like a great time to hit fast-forward and go reactive. I'll lay out some plans for Ludo when I'm home from work.

[LCP]

My default plan has been to take Sommerzeit in steps of roughly a week at a time, and I was going to start doing that once the current slate of conversations and information-gathering wraps up - i.e. Ludo finishes his conversation with Sieghard, Bardhyl gets the report from his Selsan team, and Olga gets back to Elsa.

In terms of when we'll be ready for that first week, the stuff I'm going to wait for before moving forward is (1) what Ludo and Sieghard's plan is regarding Leni and Rudi and (2) what plans Bardhyl puts into motion about the Ghost, or anything else he wants his gang to get up to. I also don't think I have any particular plans on my radar for Jarla - if she just wants to hang around in Savonne there'll still be stuff to react to, but RossN if you have any things you want her to get up to then a week is a good timescale to think about for the first step.

If the convo at the Fish is wrapping up I can probably move forward a few days and get to the point of Olga arriving/Bardhyl getting his report.

[-Sentinel-]

If the convo at the Fish is wrapping up I can probably move forward a few days and get to the point of Olga arriving/Bardhyl getting his report.
Sounds good to me.

[RossN]

Jarla is still interested in her messanger/courier service. She'll try sounding out merchants to see what they would be willing to pay so she'll know what she can afford to pay any staff she can hire.

She'll probably have to mention this to Sforza and Irene at some point but she'll need some idea whether her pony express is viable before she brings it up with the royals.

Gossip: [roll0] vs 64

Edit: oh dice why do you hate me so?

[RossN]

FP reroll:

Gossip 64 vs [roll0]

Edit: oh for fecks sake! :smallsigh:

[rax]

In terms of when we'll be ready for that first week, the stuff I'm going to wait for before moving forward is (1) what Ludo and Sieghard's plan is regarding Leni and Rudi and (2) what plans Bardhyl puts into motion about the Ghost, or anything else he wants his gang to get up to. Obviously Bardhyl's next move will be dictated by what he learns from his men in Selsan, but aside from that, he also wants to do or check up on the following:

1. He's trying to learn what forces Sforza has readily available. He knows how many men there are in Morr's Seat and roughly how many there are in Castel d'Irena. Snooping around too much in Savonne might draw unwanted attention, but do any of the original PCs know the size and composition of Sforza's forces in Savonne? If so, Bardhyl will try to slip that into a later conversation.

2. Now that Bardhyl knows Sforza's strategy for managing the famine, he'll want to send word ASAP to Wadim to warn him to take measures to keep the vrani herds and any other foodstuffs out of Sforza's hands. He'll also want to know how the locust swarms affected the Raven Hills and how many people Wadim thinks would be ready to take up arms against Sforza if the revolt needs to kick off sooner rather than later.

3. Once Abbie's finished shopping, they supplies will need to be moved to one or more of Bardhyl's hidey-holes. I think he's most likely to be operating out of his lair in the Karst in the near future, so that's where he'll want to stock up.

Points 2 and 3 can be combined. Depending on what he finds out about the Ghost, he'll send 2-4 of them to drop off the supplies and then continue on to the Hills to update Wadim and bring back his response to Savonne.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo's general plan for the next week is:


Whatever immediate actions need to be taken in the aftermath of his conversation with Sieghard.
Speak to Leni about what's happened. (Timesplit maybe?)
Go to Savonne. Collect Hieronymous and Rudi. Return to Painford.


I'm not sure when Elsa is planning to move the book, but if that's in, say, the next two weeks, we might as well synch up and all travel together.

I'm not sure how collecting Rudi will go. Presumably he'll need persuading - possibly a letter from Leni? - and also an excuse to leave. I'm not sure how much he can refuse Irene's offer to work for her, but I assume he's not going to be the only person leaving Savonne soon.

To add a touch of complication to all of this, I'm off to Beijing on holiday on Friday, which will mean i'm away friday and probably on low availability for a couple of weeks after that (not to mention on a GMT+8ish time zone). (It's also not entirely impossible that I'll vanish completely, the great firewall being what it is - I have a VPN, so probably not, but if I do suddenly disappear then that's why.)

[-Sentinel-]

the Brotherhood of Magritte
*Magritta. Magritte is a Belgian painter. :smallwink:



I'm not sure when Elsa is planning to move the book, but if that's in, say, the next two weeks, we might as well synch up and all travel together.
Sforza is likely moving the Book as soon as Elsa is ready; that is, as soon as Olga is back in Savonne (roughly 4 days after the council meeting).



To add a touch of complication to all of this, I'm off to Beijing on holiday on Friday,
Oh, interesting. I've never been to China. Hope you have a nice trip!


Elsa's plan for the next week is only to wait for Olga and then travel to Caerfort with Olga, Tatiana and the two horses. She'll be taking all of her possessions with her, since it looks like she'll be there for the foreseeable future. While going through Painford, she'll maintain appearances that her relationship with Sieghard is just camaraderie.

[TheSummoner]

Sieghard needs to see to Ravenskird. I was hoping for replies to the messages he sent (or at least the ones sent to Manaan's Keep and Burhan), but he can't wait on them. He plans to enact the same sort of rationing there as he did in Painford. He'll take Hanna with and see to it personally and leave Ingwald in charge in Painford while he's away. He'll also take Ludo's advice to bring a few more soldiers and start work on proper storehouses in both towns to see to the provisions. Any help Ludo can offer before he heads north would be appreciated.

Sieghard will probably still be there when Elsa passes through and he'll join her group heading through back to Painford when she does. "Camaraderie" or not, Sieghard wants to show off his fancy new home. Despite everything that's going on, he's proud of that and hasn't had a chance to yet.

[LCP]

LCP, how much would Elsa know about Esteban Valdes' troops?

Can you be more specific about what it is you're interested to know?

Re: Elsa passing through Painford, by my reckoning that should happen around the 2nd of Sommerzeit. We can definitely break/timesplit there.

[-Sentinel-]

Can you be more specific about what it is you're interested to know?
Eh, I suppose it doesn't matter all that much. Elsa's not headed all the way to Last Water anyway.

[TheSummoner]

To add a touch of complication to all of this, I'm off to Beijing on holiday on Friday, which will mean i'm away friday and probably on low availability for a couple of weeks after that (not to mention on a GMT+8ish time zone). (It's also not entirely impossible that I'll vanish completely, the great firewall being what it is - I have a VPN, so probably not, but if I do suddenly disappear then that's why.)

Enjoy your trip.

I know this is a wildly off topic, but have you heard about the Unity situation and what are your thoughts there?

[-Sentinel-]

I know this is a wildly off topic, but have you heard about the Unity situation and what are your thoughts there?
I don't have a horse in this race, but all the game industry people I follow on Twitter are livid.



“Covered their faces, but by their gear she took them for deserters from Alvarr’s army.”
Hmm, there's a non-zero chance Fauchard is among them... :smallamused:

[TheSummoner]

I don't have a horse in this race, but all the game industry people I follow on Twitter are livid.

I do have a horse in it. Sorta. I haven't touched it in a while, but I was working on a project in Unity. I've been thinking about getting back into it, but that sorta kills the motivation knowing that I may be forced to port everything to a new engine.


Hmm, there's a non-zero chance Fauchard is among them... :smallamused:

Fauchard aside, there might be opportunity there. I've got thoughts, but I'll withhold them until Sieghard has a good reason to mention it IC. Tangentally related, was a certain outlaw pushing for sedition planning on mentioning it to the guy who actually has soldiers?

[LeSwordfish]

I know this is a wildly off topic, but have you heard about the Unity situation and what are your thoughts there?

Shameless money-grubbing. I've seen theories that it's cover for some other thing or a share manipulation scheme but I suspect it's just penny-squeezing from the Elon Musk School Of Management.



So Sforza's letters look like, by the letter of his request:


Immediately put aside stores for The Thorns for twelve months. (Are there really only 21 Thorns? Even after the various bits of recruitment we did from the refugees?)
In addition to our existing taxes, a hundred and twenty bushels of wheat equivalent each month.
And on top of that, we need to feed the civilians in the region. How many people are in the region that Sieghard is responsible for? Something like 2-300, right?


Is that correct?

So, assuming we do what Sforza says, how much food do we need to gather per month? How long will our stores last under these restrictions? What does that look like compared to our normal tax burden?

Let's assume Ludo is familiarising himself with our capacity over the two-day timeskip, so he can do these calculations relatively quickly when the letter comes.

Here's a roll for this if needed: [roll0] vs 78 (Int 48 + Evaluate +20 + Dealmaker), re-roll [roll1]

[LCP]

Tangentially related, was a certain outlaw pushing for sedition planning on mentioning it to the guy who actually has soldiers?

I think Ludo has brought word of it:


"Bardhyl... [...] Bardhyl's planning to resist. He's saying he's going to resist Sforza taking any food from the Raven Hills."



(Are there really only 21 Thorns? Even after the various bits of recruitment we did from the refugees?)

I've been leaving it to you guys to keep track, so that's a question for TheSummoner I think.


So, assuming we do what Sforza says, how much food do we need to gather per month? How long will our stores last under these restrictions? What does that look like compared to our normal tax burden?

I started writing the answer from an IC point of view, but realised I was probably getting too in-depth. The TL;DR of what I had written is that the numbers in your post look accurate to me & that Sforza's demands for the Iron Company are probably adding 10-20% to your effective no. of mouths to feed. Stores for the Thorns is a more complicated question because Sforza hasn't given you a deadline there by which all the stores have to be in. As a floor, I think you could think of it as exempting the Thorns from rationing - working out how many more effective mouths that is would require an up-to-date headcount though.

In terms of not going too deep into fantasy logistics, we could turn this into some kind of a track? I'm thinking something like a number line scale of Hunger that goes up and down in response to in-game problems and solutions, with Stores as a currency you can burn to stop it rising. If that works for you, I can set that up and frame these options in game terms.

[LeSwordfish]

In terms of not going too deep into fantasy logistics, we could turn this into some kind of a track? I'm thinking something like a number line scale of Hunger that goes up and down in response to in-game problems and solutions, with Stores as a currency you can burn to stop it rising. If that works for you, I can set that up and frame these options in game terms.

I think that would work better for me than having to learn how much a bushel is, yeah. We might want to track the Thorns and civilians separately, if we're caring about the distinction between "not starving" and "fighting fit". Even if we start out with the best intentions of equitable distribution, that might fall down if we ever need to do any actual fighting.

So with 10-20% more mouths that looks like it's knocked our stores down to, say, six or seven weeks?

[LCP]

If you're running solely off your stores, yes - but I'd look at your stores as more of your net buffer than as the sum total of food available. Right now there is still food coming in (e.g. excess livestock being slaughtered, fishing in the Mere, foraging for tubers, nuts etc.) beyond what you have stored. That rate is likely to drop as those emergency food sources get depleted.

I think we can handle whether the Thorns are getting preferential treatment without an extra track - the decision can impact the main track, and then we'll have a yes/no answer to whether the Thorns are being fed enough to stay at full fighting fitness. I'll try to put the track together and post it up when I get home this evening.

[-Sentinel-]

Fauchard aside, there might be opportunity there. I've got thoughts, but I'll withhold them until Sieghard has a good reason to mention it IC.
Oooh, you got me curious.



I think that would work better for me than having to learn how much a bushel is, yeah.
Heh. :smallbiggrin:

Well, a +10-20% food requirement isn't nearly as bad as I feared. We're not talking about the Holodomor here.



My turn to post an unrelated thing: who here has seen Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves?

It sadly underperformed at the box office, but it's the most fun new movie I've seen this year. It's obvious that everyone involved in it was having a blast. Some viewers have pointed out that, at times, the plot of the movie has beats similar to a roleplaying campaign: epic fails that look like a roll of 1 on a D20, zany schemes that turn out to be unnecessary or force the GM to bend over backwards to accommodate, etc.

[TheSummoner]

Immediately put aside stores for The Thorns for twelve months. (Are there really only 21 Thorns? Even after the various bits of recruitment we did from the refugees?)

21 was the count after Nath and before the extra recruitment. IIRC, the current count is back up to 50 or so, but I need to go back and double check the numbers to get an accurate count. It just hasn't been pressing until now.


I think Ludo has brought word of it:

He did, but



Bardhyl's planning to resist. He's saying he's going to resist Sforza taking any food from the Raven Hills."

Falls quite a bit short of things like



"Remind me again why you felt it was so important to support one man's drive to rule uncontested?"

"The important question now, though, is how long do you - any of you - intend to continue propping up the Tilean's rule?"

And I think that if more direct action is the path the current situation is pushing us towards, being able to talk without a go-between is going to help any potential coordination.

[LCP]

Well, a +10-20% food requirement isn't nearly as bad as I feared. We're not talking about the Holodomor here.

That's just the impact of that 1 order, not the overall severity of the famine.

[rax]

Sorry for going AWOL. Been busy running a planning session at work for a couple of days. Will catch up tomorrow and post something.

[LeSwordfish]

Jarla hasn't mentioned to anyone else that Irene is pregnant, right?

[LCP]

OK, here is Sieghard & Ludo's Fantabulous Famine Tracker:

https://i.postimg.cc/c4gGZFj9/Famine-Tracker.png

The 7-point scale represents the current balance of food supplies vs. need. 7 is what in normal times would be the baseline - enough food for everyone to eat their fill. You're starting at 5: people are having to eat less than they want, but can still work and go about their lives. At 3, more serious effects of malnutrition will start to set in, and if you hit 1, we're talking mass mortality.

The number next to the barrel in the bottom right corner represents your weeks of stores. The tracker will update once per IC week, and you can burn a week's stores to cancel out one movement to the left. If this looks good, I can put it on the front page of the OOC so you don't have to go hunting for it.

Implementing Sforza's orders re: supplies for the Iron Company will incur a move 1 space to the left once a month.

[LeSwordfish]

OK, here is Sieghard & Ludo's Fantabulous Famine Tracker:

https://i.postimg.cc/c4gGZFj9/Famine-Tracker.png

The 7-point scale represents the current balance of food supplies vs. need. 7 is what in normal times would be the baseline - enough food for everyone to eat their fill. You're starting at 5: people are having to eat less than they want, but can still work and go about their lives. At 3, more serious effects of malnutrition will start to set in, and if you hit 1, we're talking mass mortality.

The number next to the barrel in the bottom right corner represents your weeks of stores. The tracker will update once per IC week, and you can burn a week's stores to cancel out one movement to the left. If this looks good, I can put it on the front page of the OOC so you don't have to go hunting for it.

Implementing Sforza's orders re: supplies for the Iron Company will incur a move 1 space to the left once a month.

That looks good, but can you clarify what the default movement is? Does the Hunger Tracker automatically reduce over time as well?

[LCP]

No default/automatic movement. When the tracker ticks down (or up) it'll be in response to IC events where I can put the consequences to you guys in terms of their impact on the tracker before you decide what response to adopt.

[RossN]

Jarla hasn't mentioned to anyone else that Irene is pregnant, right?

I don't think so. It was brought in the OOC.

Jarla would not be willing to assassinate Irene while she is pregnant, since however bad Irene is the baby is innocent. That said Jarla (and her player!) is (are) not all that certain the pregnancy is real. I guess that one will make itself clear in time!

[LeSwordfish]

No default/automatic movement. When the tracker ticks down (or up) it'll be in response to IC events where I can put the consequences to you guys in terms of their impact on the tracker before you decide what response to adopt.

Okay - so the current amount of Food In (foraging, swamp food, livestock) is equivalent to the amount of food being eaten + the normal tax rate? But a) that's going to drop increasingly sharply as forage gets eaten, livestock gets slaughered, and the weather changes, b) Sforza's additional tax requirements will clean out our stores in about eight months and c) you're a monster and more problems are coming.

[LCP]

Yes, that is exactly correct :smallbiggrin:

[rax]

I clearly have some catching up to do, even without having read the IC thread. :smallredface:


Fauchard aside, there might be opportunity there. I've got thoughts, but I'll withhold them until Sieghard has a good reason to mention it IC. Tangentally related, was a certain outlaw pushing for sedition planning on mentioning it to the guy who actually has soldiers? A certain outlaw certainly hopes to find an opportunity to talk directly to Sieghard, but he still has business in Savonne before he's ready to swing by Painford. He's also hoping that Ludo might now be in a frame of mind where he might soften up Sieghard for a more direct conversation. After all, so far none of the original PCs have shown much enthusiasm for getting rid of Sforza, so from Bardhyl's perspective he isn't even sure that they would be allies if he tries to kick off a rebellion...


OK, here is Sieghard & Ludo's Fantabulous Famine Tracker:

https://i.postimg.cc/c4gGZFj9/Famine-Tracker.png Morbidly illustrated little things like this are one of the great things about this game. :smallbiggrin:

[TheSummoner]

I don't think so. It was brought in the OOC.

Jarla would not be willing to assassinate Irene while she is pregnant, since however bad Irene is the baby is innocent. That said Jarla (and her player!) is (are) not all that certain the pregnancy is real. I guess that one will make itself clear in time!

I'd argue there's about a 0% chance of Irene carrying a child to term regardless of our intervention, so it's a moot point in my eyes. If we were to hypothetically assassinate Sforza, but not her, the first thing she would do is order her servants to bring her an entire cart of the herbs she was looking for in Painford and the second she would do is drink so much wine that the herbs would be rendered pointless. The third is make the famine ten times worse.

Re: Operation BBQ Pulled Pork
There's only two outcomes I see. Either we assassinate Sforza or we're pushed into open rebellion. (Or we accelerate mass starvation, but that's not going to happen so I'm ignoring option 3). The latter results in more direct power, but it's likely to be devastating at the worst possible time and it'll destroy any connections we have to the current regime even if we win, so we'd be in a worse situation with likely less overall control. For that reason, I lean towards removing them in a way that offers plausible deniability.

Ideally, we'd have some way of eliminating both of them and having it look like an accident. I don't think this is doable, though. Pretty much anything we could feasibly do is going to look like someone assassinated them, even if we're not on the list of suspects. The easiest way is probably poisoning. We have a connection into the kitchens and we actually do sorta know where we could get the poison. A big potential complication here is what happens if such a plot successfully eliminated one but not the other?

If the prince survives a poisoning attempt, he's going to be far more on guard and likely grow far more brutal. If Irene survives, her taking full power in Savonne is probably the worst case scenario. And as a personal hang-up, I don't want to poison her. I want her to know exactly why she's dying right before it happens and poisoning doesn't accomplish that. One idea I had been tossing about was arranging for her to be abducted by "bandits," but that would require a way to get her alone(ish) outside of the city, so it's potentially a non-starter.

However it happens, Sieghard and Ludo need to reach Savonne before Carraciolo does. It's unlikely Sforza's death could be kept secret for long and there's likely to be unrest. In addition to getting that under control with less death than from Carraciolo sending in the Iron Company, we need to reach Al-Makir. This isn't to try to sweep in, gain support, and grab power before Carraciolo does; I still think opposing him puts us in almost as bad a situation as open rebellion against Sforza. I do, however, think we could arrange things so that his power is mostly in name only and getting Al-Makir on our side would be critical to that.

[rax]

Re Operation BBQ Pulled Pork

In case it's not been made clear IC, removing Sforza and replacing him with Carraciolo is not a solution from Bardhyl's point of view. Partly because Carraciolo commanded the reprisals against the vrani for raiding and partly because Bardhyl's goal isn't for the vrani to trade one master for another - it's independence.

There's really only a couple of acceptable outcomes as far as Bardhyl is concerned: 1) The Sforza regime is dismantled and whoever comes after abandons any claim to the Raven Hills; 2) The Sforza regime is dismantled and no one claims central power, but some sort of league of common interest is set up to stabilize the Reaches as a whole and keep ambitious individuals from trying to seize power.

Given that this is a Border Princes campaign, I don't expect any of Bardhyl's preferred solutions to lead to long term stability, but neither do I expect the Sforza regime to last more than a generation or two in practice. In any case, the actual campaign will be over so we'll never know what happened to the Reaches a few years down the road.

With that said, poisoning one or both of Muzio and Irene is perfectly fine with Bardhyl.

[LeSwordfish]

I agree that Prince Carrociolo is a bad state to end up in. I think he's got all the negative qualities of Sforza without the positive ones. I think ideally we want to discredit him or remove him as the obvious consensus candidate.

Maybe we could get the rumor circulating that he's been blabbing about Sforza's deal with the orcs? that would discredit both of them, turn them against each other, and get the orc news out into the public consciousness without it needing to come from us. (Important because an awful lot of the people loyal to us would be much less so if they thought that we'd been hiding it from them).

Re:Poison: I may be misremembering but I believe the Sforzas use a food tester since Irene's illness?

[RossN]

Jarla wouldn't be willing to harm Giovanni - she'queasy enough considering offing the Sforzas and she has a real soft spot for the Tilean lug.

[rax]

Don't worry, Jarla won't have to lift a finger against him. Bardhyl and half the Raven Hills would be happy to do the dirty work. :smallamused:

[TheSummoner]

From a meta perspective, I agree that Carrociolo wouldn't be any better than Sforza and that he'd probably have to be neutralized as well. IC, though, Sieghard doesn't have any reason to go after him. I imagine he'd probably create that sort of reason within a month or two at most of taking power, but that hasn't happened yet.

[rax]

That's all fair, but if we get around to having that conversation I'll make sure that Bardhyl lets Sieghard know that putting Carraciolo in the Prince's seat is a bad idea. :smallwink:

[LeSwordfish]

Making a list of what Assets we have:

Definitely Available

Ourselves - the hypnohobbit, one of the only magic users in the campaign, and Sieghard, probably the best individual melee fighter.
The Thorns - fifty crossbow/rifle troops. The cannon.
Bardhyl's gang.
A decent amount of cash, though much of it is owed by Sforza.
Painford (as a town) - fortified position on a key trade route.
Ravenskird - non-fortified town, the only route for large goods across the river.
The secret that Sforza was working with the Orcs
Knowledge of where Sforza gets his cash.


Would Maybe Join Us If We Ask Nicely

Painford (the people)
The people and militias of the Raven Hills.
Hieronymous and potentially the temple
The Volunteers and the old Manaan's Keep militia.
Sanne Raven-cry


Getting Them On Our Side Would Be Much Harder But Possible

Filomena
The Dwimmulsons



Out There For The Taking

The various survivors of Alvarr's army

[rax]

Making a list of what Assets we have:

Definitely Available

The Thorns - fifty crossbow/rifle troops. The cannon.

There's a cannon?!! Tell me more! :smallbiggrin:

Adding to the "Out There For The Taking" section:
- The Putbad guilders, their money, and the mercenaries they can buy

@LCP
I've been meaning to ask, but who's Sforza's local representative in Putbad? Also, Carraciolo is Lord-Lieutenant of the North. Does that mean he's supposed to be running everything from the Raven Hills to Putbad? And does Valdes have the same role in the south? Does that mean that Sussman and Sieghard are technically Valdes' direct vassals?

[LCP]

Re:Poison: I may be misremembering but I believe the Sforzas use a food tester since Irene's illness?

It rings a bell, but my searching doesn't bring any explicit IC mention of it up. Not an unreasonable thing for Ludo to guess is possible, though.


From a meta perspective, I agree that Carrociolo wouldn't be any better than Sforza and that he'd probably have to be neutralized as well. IC, though, Sieghard doesn't have any reason to go after him. I imagine he'd probably create that sort of reason within a month or two at most of taking power, but that hasn't happened yet.

Just to say here that you guys have spent some time on the campaign trail with Carraciolo, so could reasonably have some idea what he's like from routine social interactions outside what we played out IC. Don't limit yourself too strictly on that front.


The cannon.

IIRC the cannon is in Savonne atm? Unless I've forgotten it getting moved again.


I've been meaning to ask, but who's Sforza's local representative in Putbad? Also, Carraciolo is Lord-Lieutenant of the North. Does that mean he's supposed to be running everything from the Raven Hills to Putbad? And does Valdes have the same role in the south? Does that mean that Sussman and Sieghard are technically Valdes' direct vassals?

Yes, Carraciolo is overseeing the Raven Hills, the Shepherd's Valley and the Uplands. He's got no prominent delegate in Putbad.

Valdes has responsibility for the Vale, the Iron Claw Hills and Last Water: Sussman answers to him, Sieghard doesn't.

I take it from the end of the last IC post for Bardhyl that this plan to visit Filomena isn't something he's planning to put into action immediately - you're still happy to advance the week when Sieghard and Ludo's conversation wraps up?

[LeSwordfish]

There's a cannon?!! Tell me more!

Evatt's landship had a small ship's cannon that survived the blast: Ludo got it up and running again and several of the Thorns trained in Gunpowder to get it firing.


IIRC the cannon is in Savonne atm? Unless I've forgotten it getting moved again.

I definitely don't recall specifically moving it but only because i assumed it was with the rest of the Thorns belongings- it's definitely company property! If Sforza did a bit of eminent domain on it at some point then that's fair but otherwise i don't see why we'd have left it somewhere. Apart from anything else, i didn't know Sforza had anyone else who could fire it.

We did occasionally loan it to Sforza for various purposes (firing on the Nath tower, it was at the back during Arrow Heap) but I was always assuming a) that included a small Thorns crew and b) we'd be getting it back.

Edit: forgot to say in the IC but I'm not sure how much further the current Ludo/Sieghard conversation can run without the others and what they think or know. I think we should all specifically try to be in the same place some time soon (the next full moon) to hash this out IC.

[LCP]

My very vague recollection was that it was "let's keep this in the central armoury" rather than "I'm confiscating it as a Sforza treat" - but I'll search back and see if I can find it. If not, we can assume it's in Painford.

[TheSummoner]

Re: Food tester. If they have one, it's an obstacle, but not one that can't be overcome. Use a poison with an antidote and make sure the tester drinks it before the poisoning takes place.


There's a cannon?!! Tell me more! :smallbiggrin:

So there used to be this guy called Evatt who was lord of Manaan's Keep. And Evatt was insane, but he was the fun kind of insane. So Evatt build a landship and went full "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" against the orcs who were surprisingly good blacksmiths and had weapons very similar to the ones made in Mirino, but the landship went full "kaboom" and Sforza ended up taking control of Manaan's Keep after Sieghard and Elsa killed the orc warboss. Ludo found the cannon in the wreckage of the landship after the battle.

In completely unrelated news, Sussman was put in charge of Manaan's Keep after Sforza won the war against Alvarr.


IIRC the cannon is in Savonne atm? Unless I've forgotten it getting moved again.

Fairly certain we had it in Nath the second time. After that, I don't remember anything explicit, but it's reasonable to assume it would've gone with Sieghard given that his men are the ones actually trained to operate the thing.


when Sieghard and Ludo's conversation wraps up?

Unless Ludo has more to add, I think it has.

[LeSwordfish]

Nope! (See edit above.) I'll add a post with my reply to Sussman's letter.

[rax]

Evatt's landship had a small ship's cannon that survived the blast: Ludo got it up and running again and several of the Thorns trained in Gunpowder to get it firing. Right, I remember reading about a cannon being used at Arrow Heap against Duke Alvarr, but I didn't realize that it belonged to the PCs. I thought it was something Sforza had brought with him from before setting up in the Reaches.


Yes, Carraciolo is overseeing the Raven Hills, the Shepherd's Valley and the Uplands. He's got no prominent delegate in Putbad.

Valdes has responsibility for the Vale, the Iron Claw Hills and Last Water: Sussman answers to him, Sieghard doesn't. Got it, thanks.


I take it from the end of the last IC post for Bardhyl that this plan to visit Filomena isn't something he's planning to put into action immediately - you're still happy to advance the week when Sieghard and Ludo's conversation wraps up? I'm a bit ambivalent about that, actually. On the one hand, it's a fresh lead that could go interesting places. On the other hand, Bardhyl doesn't have any proof, just a theory, and waltzing into Filomena's office to interview her about something he now suspects she wants to keep secret is asking for trouble. I can easily see her trying to silence him rather than cut any deal. So...yeah, I think I'll wait a little while and perhaps discuss this in Painford with Ludo and Sieghard before taking any action.

[LeSwordfish]

Are we timeskipping to meeting in Ravenskird or for long enough for Ludo to carry on from there to Savonne?

If the former, I'm ready to go now. Ludo wants to talk to Leni and Hanna before he goes.


For Leni, he wants to ask what she wants to do? it's probably not safe for Her and Rudi in Savonne, but she might have stronger opinions about staying in Painford vs returning to Last Water (if she can't decide, Ludo will recommend staying here, but he wants to hold off on suggesting that to let her choose.)
For Hanna, he wants to clarify that she is still a Thorn and doesn't need to take any orders from Sussman that she doesn't want to (and if he makes a fuss about that, threaten to leave.) She's there to help with crowd control but for God's sake don't shoot anyone who's not shooting back (throwing rocks doesn't count). I don't remember who the existing fighting force in Manaan's Keep is but if it's the Volunteers or the Militia then maybe have a word with them too, soldier to soldier, and try and pass on that recommendation from Ludo and Sieghard.


I think that might be a Command test for Hanna? Since essentially he's trying to preemptively override Sussman's commands: [roll0]

[LCP]

Leni's perfect-world solution would probably be to take Rudi home to Last Water - familiar surroundings far away from danger. But that's in a perfect world - in the real world, if Irene does have malicious designs on her and Rudi, then she's likely to notice if Rudi hands in his notice in Savonne, and Leni's afraid of what might happen then. She's been waiting for Ludo in something of a state of decision paralysis - she's hoping that Ludo will be able to come up with a cunning plan.

I think Hanna and the Thorns are sufficiently on-side that Ludo's instructions not to let Sussman boss her around are probably good without a roll, but that's a nice roll all the same.

For meeting in Ravenskird, Elsa will be there very soon (the 1st). If you want me to do that short step first before doing the full week, I'm happy to split things up.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo will be open with Leni that he doesn't have a cunning plan, but that she and Rudi can live in Painford under his protection for as long as it takes.

EDIT: I'm happy to either stop there or carry on, i think the relevant thing is what Ludo and Sieghard tell Elsa re: resisting Sforza. Would you like Ludo's plans for in Savonne now or shall we jump to his arrival?

[LCP]

I think if there's no plan to extract Rudi, then she'll probably end up wanting to join him in Savonne. Maybe not right away - she's not a big hero like the PCs and the idea that Irene might wish her or Rudi harm is very scary - but if she can have some time to face that fear, she'll probably realise that if she can't get Rudi away from the danger, then the best she can do is be there to watch his back.

Painford is not a very appealing prospect to her - she had a nice home in Mirino, she thought she was going to nice living quarters in Savonne. Right now, her view of Painford is just as a halfway stop in the middle of nowhere, without much in the way of home comforts or prospective employment. If you want to convince her, though, I'm sure Ludo's hypnohobbit skills could come in handy, and any information about what Ludo and Sieghard have been discussing might also influence her (if you think you can trust her with that kind of thing). But the key thing for her would still be what's going to happen to Rudi - solutions where she doesn't either go to him or bring him back to her are going to be very difficult to sell.

I'm happy to stop the train at Ravenskird, it seems like there's a fair bit of PC interaction waiting there and I wouldn't want to rush it.

Unrelated but important - I remember when Urgrim left the game (roughly a year back now), at least some of you guys expressed the hope that he could rejoin if things settled down a bit for Thragka. Thragka and I have kept in touch and he is well out the other end of his PhD thesis now and up for rejoining. Would anyone object to Urgrim coming back and bringing the party size up to six? Seems like you might be about to enter a phase of the campaign where the PCs could use all the help they can get.

[LeSwordfish]

I guess I should have been clearer - Ludo doesn't have any kind of cunning plan further than "Get Rudi out of Savonne".

I'm very happy to have Thragka and Urgrim back!

[LCP]

Ah, so maybe I got the wrong end of the stick - he'd be essentially promising Leni that he was going to Savonne and coming back with Rudi?

[-Sentinel-]

I'm very happy to have Thragka and Urgrim back!
Likewise! :smallsmile:

This is about the right time to cultivate contacts among the dwarfs. They and the Vrani are the Jackal's greatest opponents.

[LeSwordfish]

Ah, so maybe I got the wrong end of the stick - he'd be essentially promising Leni that he was going to Savonne and coming back with Rudi?

Yeah, exactly - he's got no clever scheme from then on, but unless she tells him not to, he can at least get Rudi put of there.

[rax]

I'm fine with Thragka returning.

[RossN]

Delighted to have Thragka back! :smallsmile:

[TheSummoner]

Would anyone object to Urgrim coming back and bringing the party size up to six? Seems like you might be about to enter a phase of the campaign where the PCs could use all the help they can get.

Absolutely no objections. If you're fine GMing for 6, I'm happy to have him rejoin the group.

[LCP]

Excellent. I won't lie, with how split the group is atm, GMing is more of a time strain than I'd like it to be - but if you guys can be considerate of that, then I'd much rather have Urgrim back than leave him off in NPC limbo. The IC post I've just put up should set the stage for him to join Elsa in Caerfort, and if any of you want to speak to him first, he'll probably pass you along the way.


Just a reminder that Bardhyl's ruminations on Filomena would be taking place when his men get back from Selsan, i.e. the 32nd. So, technically, Abbie should already be en route to the hideout in the Karst.

Sorry about that, I missed the date tag inside the quote. I think that comment could have been made by any one of the gang though.

Can I also clarify which hideout Bardhyl is sending them to? The one nearer Elmridge or the one nearer Bunthafen?

We are into Sommerzeit now and that means it's time for XP. Let me know if there's anything I've forgotten.




Bardhyl
Elsa
Jarla
Ludo
Sieghard


Completing Sigmarzeit
100
100
100
100
100


RIP Boss Glimrut, gone but not forgotten
50
50
50
50
50


Wyvern slayers
100
100
100
100
0


Willing to try mushrooms from a man you found in a hole in the ground
15
15
15
15
0


Daemon deniers
25
25
75
25
0


Raven Hills reconciliations
50
25
25
25
0


Foiling Irene, oh I swear (she's so mean)
0
0
0
0
35


Post-locust crisis management
25
25
25
25
50

[RossN]

XP! :smallbiggrin:

Jarla now 1,020 XP in the bank.

[-Sentinel-]

Willing to try mushrooms from a man you found in a hole in the ground
Ha ha ha ha ha :smallbiggrin:

For ritual creation, I'm going to need Arcane Language (Magic) +10%. Is this a 200xp advance if I'm no longer in a career that has it as an option?

[LCP]

As far as I can see from my reading of the rulebook, yes.

[LeSwordfish]

I believe that puts Ludo at 515 XP now! That could put me very comfortably into a new career, or alternatively perhaps we could talk Elite Advances?

We've previously discussed two that were interesting to me: a Local Hero sort of thing for bonus DOS when interacting with the people of Painford, and using a fortune point to establish a prior relationship with a new NPC (i.e. greeting a random guard with "hi alfredo, how are the kids"?) Are you still interested in either of those? Alternatively, would you allow me to take Master Orator as an elite advance? Or there's one that lets you Command people you aren't actually in charge of, right?

I believe I've already suggested "Common Lore (Painford)" - my goal with that would be to develop the kind of detailed knowledge to, for example, be able to know specific charcoal-burners and where their huts are located, know all the villagers on sight, have that kind of civic leader familiarity that I wouldn't expect from Common Lore (Border Princes) - or should that more easily be represented by Skill Mastery?

Sadly I have left my collection of pdfs back in england so can't go poking around in them for ideas or careers afvice. Any suggestions much appreciated.

[LCP]

Yep, I'm cool with this kind of thing... coming up with creative ways to spend your XP seems like a good idea now that you have so much of it!

For the first thing, I think we could have a Local Knowledge Skill, analogous to Common Lore and Academic Knowledge. Individual settlements seems like a decent way to bracket it; we could say it's applicable both in the settlement you buy it for and also for local knowledgey things in adjacent hexes.

For the second thing, I think 'spend a fortune point to recall a personal connection with an NPC' works for me. I'm guessing you'd want a wider catchment area for that to be useful - if it was just in Painford then that's kind of where we are already with those NPCs. Subject to GM veto in case you try to recall that time you bet Sforza fifty thousand crowns he'd never be a king, but I can promise not to be too stingy.

Master Orator as an elite advance also sounds OK - it sounds to me like something that might be becoming very relevant in the near IC future. I'm not sure what you're referring to with one that lets you Command people who aren't your subordinates though - that's not ringing any bells for me.

[RossN]

Jarla is going to be putting some of her XP into learning Tilean.

Admittedly I'm struggling with thinking of a potential teacher. Barbaro is the obvious candidate but he's moving to Alvarran. Maybe Jacques? Does he speak Tilean?

[-Sentinel-]

Admittedly I'm struggling with thinking of a potential teacher. Barbaro is the obvious candidate but he's moving to Alvarran. Maybe Jacques? Does he speak Tilean?
Could be one of the Tilean servants. Or a retired Iron Company soldier, if there are any in Savonne.


I can buy a familiar ability for Khalida. I'll go with Voice of Reason (can re-roll any casting roll that includes doubles). I feel that it fits Elsa's wiser, less reckless nature to buy this one before Magic Focus (the one that lets you supercharge a spell but adds a Chaos die to the roll).

[Thragka]

Hi folks! A pleasure to be rejoining you. :smallbiggrin:

I’m also away from books at the moment, so I expect to get stuck back in at the weekend, with an updated charsheet for Urgrim in the works.


I'm not sure what you're referring to with one that lets you Command people who aren't your subordinates though - that's not ringing any bells for me.

That sounds like the Dark Heresy (1E) Talent Air of Authority, which lets you do something similar.

[Thragka]

Urgrim Jotunnsson

https://i.ibb.co/ZYcKsn2/PAR-Urgrim.png

Race: Dwarf
Career: Entertainer -> Vagabond -> Scout -> Badlands Ranger

Appearance:
Urgi is slim for a dwarf, standing four feet eight inches tall and some 140 pounds. The even tan of his skin is noticeably unusual for a dwarf, marking him as one who spends more time above ground than is healthy for a traditional sky-fearing dawi. His hair and beard are copper, with prominent blond highlights from the sun; ashy streaks and the occasional strand of outright grey are just beginning to appear. His beard is also shorter than one might expect of a dwarf his age, barely reaching below his breast – but if this is remarked upon, he remains silent and a little distant.

A gentle, flat nose and an angular (though not thin) jaw give him something of a kindly face. His big blue eyes are ever a little puffy, and his gaze seems soft and gentle – but when it lingers, it has a depth that speaks of careful consideration. In contrast to his bushy moustache, his right eyebrow is missing, and his left is bifurcated by a jag of scar tissue which continues upwards to the ruined landscape of forehead.

There are other scars – on his leg, across his forearms – and a pair of Klinkarun tattoos on his chest, but they generally remain covered by his garb. When he ranges, he wears simple and breathable cloth. On his own time, he makes a little more effort to be presentable: an embroidered shirt and matching waistcoat, finely dyed breaches and elegant boots. In any case, he is rarely seen without his pair of throwing axes tucked into his belt, one on each side.


Background:
On the 33rd of Kaldezeit 2437, by the Imperial reckoning, Urgrim Jotunnsson was born in the sea-hold of Barak Varr on the Black Gulf, first child of Jotunn Urgrimsson, a stoneworker of no mean repute of Clan Harginsson, and Dagmar Anikasdottir, herself a respected woman of letters who worked in the administration of the trading port. The healthy babe was the pride and joy of his parents, and his early years passed happily. Urgrim was an athletic and intelligent child. From his father, he learned to work stone, his nimble hands taking quickly to smaller versions of the mason’s tools. Jotunn was even more overjoyed than he let on, and it was clear to all that he looked forward to welcoming his son into his craft as his partner once he was a dwarf grown. Dagmar often brought the young Urgrim to the docks, where he marvelled at the sheer variety of peoples that would pass through the port of Barak Varr; he would pester his mother with never-ending questions about the wide world beyond the hold. His parents encouraged their bright son’s interest, although the somewhat more conservative Jotunn did not fully approve, as the boy got older, of his fascination with umgi ways.

Perhaps his father’s fears were something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. As Urgrim grew into a beardling, his skill with stone developed into a good amateur artistry with sculpture, but he did not seem keen to follow his father into the craft. Instead he broadened his art, pursuing an interest in dwarven bardic traditions – the singing and recital of the historic dwarven sagas. It was far from a scandalous pursuit in the generally traditionalist culture of Barak Varr, but still Jotunn found fault with how Urgrim chose to spend his time, despite his wife’s gentle remonstrations to ease off.

Unfortunately, the wedge between father and son had already been driven, and it would not be healed in the conservative stronghold of Barak Varr. The hold’s king, Byrrnoth Grundadrak, encouraged all young dwarfs to make the traditional journey to Karak Kadrin when they came of age, and Jotunn pressed Urgrim to take on the challenge as he reached his thirties, so that he could return and join the family business. Urgrim might not have left Barak Varr, if not for this; but after a particularly vicious argument, where small disagreements were amplified by both to an unnecessary rancour, Urgrim departed the hold – not for the pilgrimage, but to join a troupe of human travelling players who were heading west across the Border Princes instead. His last insult to his father was twofold: he shortened his beard, and insisted he would now answer only to Urgi instead of his full name – it had been Dagmar’s pet name for him since his infancy, but its similarity to the Khazalid word for enemy took on a new connotation with the breakdown in relations with his father.

Urgi soon lost confidence in his rebellion, finding that his art was not so appreciated among humans: the songs were too mournful, and the Reikspiel translations of the sagas had none of the rhetorical or narrative appeal of the Khazalid originals. Nonetheless, he was too proud – and too unsure of how to mend the broken bridges with his father – to go home. He stayed with the troupe as they continued west along the north coast of the Black Gulf, mostly earning his keep by dourly performing tricks with his throwing knives. They crossed the princes to Tilea, and Urgi’s moods improved; despite how lost he now felt, unhappy among humans but unable to return to his hold, it was a wonder to him to see the culture and artistry he had craved. The troupe’s time traversing the Plain of Luccini and the many principalities south of the Republic of Verezzo did much to restore his personality and improve his self-confidence.

As he grew past the headstrong immaturity of his thirties and forties, though, Urgi found that he still lacked something in his core. He had spent enough time among humans to confirm that he was not one of them, and that he never would feel like one; but he did not feel he knew how to be a dwarf. He was homesick despite not wanting to go home; instead he returned to singing his songs and reciting his sagas, and praying to the ancestor-gods. When the troupe disbanded and most were signing up with mercenary companies, Urgi was in demand and fielded offers from several captains. In fact this infuriated him: these officers reduced him just to his size and shape as a dwarf when such a label only frustrated him. So he took off back east, driven to travel between the holds of the Vaults and Black mountains, and rediscover his own sense of identity.

Urgi found then that this itinerant life suited him: he had the independence of the vagabond, but would cross from hold to hold and clan to clan, spending sometimes years attached to each. He found that his non-conformity was welcomed, and even accepted, as a Ranger – even if a slightly more sun-touched one than most. Over the decades, Urgi has grown comfortable as a ranger without a fixed hold. He still enjoys the company of humans, sometimes more than other dwarfs; he still is not sure where he belongs, and cannot see himself living beneath one mountain; but he knows that he is a dwarf, even if an unusual sort of one. One day – perhaps soon, perhaps far in the future – when he has regained some more confidence, he will return to Barak Varr, to see his parents (particularly his mother, whom he misses dearly), and ask that his father accept him as an upstanding dawi in his own way. For now, it is enough to provide service to the clans of the Princes by doing what he does best in the wilds, and cement his own confidence as a respected and proficient ranger.


Personality:
In company, Urgi is patient and attentive. He speaks softly, with measured words but lively engagement. Among those he knows he is light-hearted and slow to anger – at least, relative to the typical dwarf. At times he craves solitude, but in general he takes life as it comes. His years of ranging in the Border Princes, and moving between dwarf-holds and human settlements, have taught him to appreciate the moment, and not to dismiss the temporary passions and endeavours of umgi as meaningless – in this changeable land, perhaps such things are more beautiful because they are short-lived. Nonetheless, he makes no effort to hide how little he thinks of the political squabbling of Border Princes. The war in the north has shown that some events are too important to process on the scale of the human lifespan; and perhaps, now, something in the Red Pyramid threatens a similar danger to the Broken Reaches that will need a unified response …

When he is with a group or in a settlement, he sometimes sings to himself absent-mindedly, or can be caught reciting passages from dwarven sagas, or whistling slow and mournful tunes as he sharpens his axes or tinkers with his petty masonry. When ranging, or caught in a crisis, though, he has single-minded focus, and his surprising agility comes not from haste but from mindfulness of his circumstances. Sometimes, sadder moods come and go, as unpredictable but usually also as transient as the weather. When feeling low, he is reserved and untalkative – if forced to speak he will be laconic, although rarely outright rude. He loses confidence in himself and can return to his existential fear of being a dwarf without a hold, and moreover an outcast among outcasts; uncomfortable even among his fellow rangers, aware that he will never not be a dwarf but not knowing what sort of dwarfishness would welcome and accept him In these times, he loses himself in his memories and his existential uncertainty for some hours; usually, by the next dusk or dawn he will be his usual self.



Profile:


Main Profile
WS
BS
S
T
Ag
Int
WP
Fel


Current
65
56
49
51
46
54
51
32


Advances
4/4
4/4
2/2
2/4
3/5
4/4
3/4
2/2


Secondary Profile
A
W
SB
TB
M
Mag
IP
FP


Current
2
17
4
5
4
0
2
2


Advances
1/1
6/7









Move: 4
Attacks: 2
Wounds: 17/17
Fortune/Fate points: 3/3
Insanity Points: 2

Skills:



Skill
Characteristic
Proficiency
Target Roll
Notes


Trained






Animal Care
Intelligence

54



Charm
Fellowship

32
Can affect 10x as many people with Public Speaking


Common Knowledge (Border Princes)
Intelligence

64
(bonus from Seasoned Traveller included)


Common Knowledge (Dwarfs)
Intelligence

64
(bonus from Seasoned Traveller included)


Common Knowledge (Tilea)
Intelligence

64
(bonus from Seasoned Traveller included)


Dodge Blow
Agility

46



Evaluate
Intelligence

54



Follow Trail
Intelligence

54



Heal
Intelligence

54



Navigation
Intelligence
+10
74
(bonus from Orientation included)


Outdoor Survival
Intelligence

54



Perception
Intelligence
+20
74



Performer (Singer)
Fellowship
+10
42



Performer (Storyteller)
Fellowship
+10
42



Read/Write
Intelligence

54



Ride
Agility

46



Scale Sheer Surface
Strength

49



Secret Signs (Scout)
Intelligence

54



Speak Language (Khazalid)
Intelligence

64
(bonus from Seasoned Traveller included)


Speak Language (Ranger Tongue)
Intelligence

64
(bonus from Seasoned Traveller included)


Speak Language (Reikspiel)
Intelligence

64
(bonus from Seasoned Traveller included)


Stealth*
Agility
+20
66
+10 bonus in rural settings


Swim
Strength

49



Trade (Stoneworker)
Agility

56
(bonus from Dwarfcraft included)


Other Notes






*see house rules combining Silent Move and Concealment

Talents:



Name
Description


Dwarfcraft
+10 bonus on Trade (Armourer, Brewer, Gem Cutter, Gunsmith, Miner, Smith, Stoneworker and Weaponsmith)


Fleet-footed
+1 Movement – included in profile


Grudge-born Fury
+5 bonus to WS against orcs, goblins and hobgoblins


Lightning Reflexes
+5 Agility – included in profile


Marksman
+5 BS – included in profile


Mighty Shot
+1 bonus to damage with missile weapons


Night Vision
Vision up to 30 yards in natural low-light conditions


Orientation
+10 bonus to Navigation tests


Public Speaking
Can effect 10x as many people with Charm


Quick Draw
Once per round, ready as a free action


Rapid Reload
Half action refund to load missile weapons


Resistance to Magic
+10 bonus on relevant WP tests


Rover
+10 bonus on Concealment and Silent Move in rural settings


Seasoned Traveller
+10 bonus on Common Knowledge and Speak Language tests


Sharpshooter
Aim action grants+20 bonus with missile weapons rather than +10


Specialist Weapon Group (Throwing)
-


Stout-hearted
+10 bonus on Fear, Terror, and WP vs. Intimidate tests


Sturdy
No movement penalties in heavy/plate armour


Very Strong
+5 S – included in profile


Wrestling
+10 bonus when grappling (S) or attempting to grapple unarmed (WS)




Trappings:
Weapons, ammo and armour:



Name
Group
Range
Dam
Rld
Special
Ammo


Axe (Hand weapon)
Ordinary
-
1d10+4
-

-



Shield
Ordinary
-
1d10+2
-
Defensive, -10 Ranged To Hit penalty
-


Dagger
Ordinary
-
1d10+1
-

-



Crossbow
Ordinary
30/60
1d10+5
Half
(including talent effects)
25 bolts, 1 silver bolt



Throwing Axe
Throwing
8/-
1d10+3
Free
(including talent effects)
2 axes






Armour: Mail shirt, leather jack, leather leggings, leather skullcap. AP: Head 1, Body 2, Arms 1, Legs 1.

Steed: ‘Gil’, mule (functionally, a pony)

Other gear:
Common quality clothes (ranging gear and cloak), Good Craftsmanship clothes (embroidered shirt & waistcoat, dyed breeches, elegant boots), backpack, blanket, wooden tankard, metal flask, wooden cutlery, cooking pot, bottle of usquebaugh, purse containing money, 10 days' rations, tent, waterskin, fish hook and line, grappling hook, spade, 10 yards of rope, 12 wooden spikes, storm lantern, tinderbox, 8 vials of lamp oil, trade tools (stoneworker) including small hammer and chisel, Best Craftsmanship (scented) soap



XP record: 50/6550 (unspent/accumulated)
Advances taken:

4800 in character creation (details lost to time, like tears in rain)

100 on +1 A
200 on Read/Write
100 on Dodge Blow
100 on +5 WP
100 on +5 BS
100 on +5 WP
100 on +1 W
100 on +1 WS
100 on +1 S
100 on +1 W
100 on Animal Care
100 on Ride
200 on +10 WS
100 on +1 W

100 to enter Badlands Ranger


Money: 19g 8s 11p
Income: none at present



last updated at the start of Sommerzeit, 19/9/23: Urgrim coming off autopilot

[rax]

Yay for xp! With the 75 xp he's saved from before, Bardhyl ends up with 440 xp. It's bedtime for me, so I'll spend the xp tomorrow. I'll probably work towards completing Outlaw Chief, but is it also possible to buy skills and talents from earlier careers for 200 xp each? And do they need a logical explanation or can they just be bought based on past experience?

I noticed that I also didn't actually say in my last IC post that Bardhyl would be heading to Painford once his men got back from Selsan. I'll put up a short post tomorrow so that he can meet up with Ludo, Elsa and Sieghard in Ravenskird.

[LeSwordfish]

Welcome Back Thragka!

That's 4/5 PCs (not yet including Urgi) in Ravenskird at one time - I think it would be really good if we could get Jarla (and Urgi?) there as well to have an all-PC in-character discussion about resisting Sforza. Or would Jarla be sufficiently unwilling to take part in that resistance that we should have that conversation without her?


That sounds like the Dark Heresy (1E) Talent Air of Authority, which lets you do something similar

That's probably what I was thinking of, yeah. At some point when I'm back with my books I can perhaps look through the 40k lines for inspiration (we may be approaching Ascension levels), but all that stuff will need some pretty hefty toning down, I think it's almost impossible to reach the 70%+ levels we're rolling for for skill checks in most of those games.

[TheSummoner]

Ludo gave Sieghard a push, but I think he probably needs to have some one-on-one conversations before he's all in on it. With Elsa definitely and Bardhyl would probably have to make his own pitch before Sieghard would be willing to mention any sort of conspiracy he's involved in.

Besides, it's probably hard to justify Bardhyl showing up in the same group as Elsa. Can't imagine the Iron Company guards letting strangers anywhere near the book.

Thragka, short of one of us suddenly coming out and saying "Oh, by the way, Sforza conspired with orcs and we're only just now telling you this," would Urgrim have any reason to want to see Sforza removed and if so, what?

[LeSwordfish]

Trying to write those two Elite Advances up in a rulesy way:


Local Knowledge (X): the character has a detailed knowledge of the people and landscapes in the given settlement and an approximately ten-mile radius around it. Can be rolled to recall a local person and some detail of their lives, remember details of locations such as handy hiding places or uncharted huts, or to bring up information such as population. Provides more detailed information than Common Knowledge, some of which (at the GM's discretion) the player may make up for themself to save the GM doing it.


Friendly Acquaintance (Group): The character has spent enough time with a group to be acquainted with most of their members, and by coincidence runs into old drinking buddies, fellow soldiers, or just nodding acquaintances all the time. Upon meeting a member of this group for the first time (or the first time in a long time) the character may spend a fate point and recall previous meetings with this person in the past - for instance, you may have spent an evening playing cards with them, or chatted on a long day's march. From then on, social interactions with this person use this friendly relationship as a baseline. This is at the GM's discretion- more detailed or beneficial relationships may be vetoed entirely or require some sort of supporting test - failure means that the NPC remembers the previous relationship very differently, and much less positively.

This ability may be combined with the Distract combat action.

[Thragka]

Yeah, I think it makes sense for Urgi to catch up with (most of) the group at Ravenskird at present, so I will happily bring him in here. Just don’t immediately ask him for a blow-by-blow of what he’s been up to in the past four months, because LCP and I are still hammering out those details!

I’m trying to remember – I think it’s possible Urgrim already heard something about Sforza’s deal with the orcs. I think it might have come up when we were camping out and the goblins kidnapped Tattie(?) and we had our little excursion underground. I’ll have to go back and check whether that’s explicit. (Edit: forgot the essential point I wanted to make, which was that on this front he’d revert to the Dwimmulsons’ diplomatic response to the issue – it seems like the Rinn tolerates this fact for the moment simply because of realist political and economic concerns. That said, who knows when the Clan might change their mind about this.)

To be honest, it will probably be a hard sell to get Urgrim to actively throw his lot in with a rebellion or coup – that’s the definition of oath-breaking! And he’s reticent to get involved in human politics beyond a micro, community level (those aren’t the terms he thinks in but it’s how I’d characterise it); that’s just not the done thing for dwarfs. That said, he doesn’t think Sforza is a Good King, and that’s a significant black mark against Sforza in Urgi’s book, so he probably won’t be actively hostile to the idea of a change in leadership – and he definitely sees Irene as a Criminal who therefore needs to Face Justice. So basically, it depends how you pitch the idea and what activities you’d want him to contribute.

[LeSwordfish]

It's been a long time since all of this so you may be remembering a more relevant detail than me but are we sure the Rinn is being realist about the orcs? The last I remember, Sforza put his best innocent face on and swore blind he didnt even know what an orc WAS, and my interpretation of the reaction at the time was that the Rinn believed him. I'm no dawi expert but it doesn't seem likely they'd cross out something in the book of grudges for petty realpolitik.

[Thragka]

I’ll add that point to my weekend re-reading list to check. I think the interpretation I walked away with was that restoring the Clan’s unfettered access to their ancestral hold and the normalisation of economic relations with the low town was, on the balance, important enough to be worth overlooking a temporary and misguided and possibly even accidental contribution to the greenskin war effort. I also had a feeling that the economic realities weren’t entirely in Sforza’s favour – for prosperity in Savonne, he needed fruitful relations with the Dwimmulhold almost as much as they did – but again, that’s just an impression that’s a few years old.

[LCP]

My memory of it agrees with LeSwordfish's - the Dwimmulsons raised that they'd heard allegations, which Sforza strenuously denied (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23253499&postcount=822). They didn't have proof.


Trying to write those two Elite Advances up in a rulesy way:

Looks good to me!

[LeSwordfish]

My memory of it agrees with LeSwordfish's - the Dwimmulsons raised that they'd heard allegations, which Sforza strenuously denied (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23253499&postcount=822). They didn't have proof.

But if, say, Sforza's second-in-command, or his wife, were heard boasting of it around town after they'd had a few too many drinks... well that's not evidence per se but this isn't a court.


]Looks good to me!

Cool - if I were to request Local Knowledge (Painford) and Friendly Acquaintance (The Iron Company), how much would you charge me for those? Possibly also Friendly Acquaintance (Savonne Citizens)?

[RossN]

Could be one of the Tilean servants. Or a retired Iron Company soldier, if there are any in Savonne.

Someone she knows would probably be better but there aren't any obvious candidates who are nearby (Giovanni and Barbaro are in Alvarran) and/or have free time (Jarla is friendly with Abdul for instance and I'm sure he speaks Tilean bit he's probably rushed of his feet.)

A servant or soldier might work.

[RossN]

Welcome Back Thragka!

That's 4/5 PCs (not yet including Urgi) in Ravenskird at one time - I think it would be really good if we could get Jarla (and Urgi?) there as well to have an all-PC in-character discussion about resisting Sforza. Or would Jarla be sufficiently unwilling to take part in that resistance that we should have that conversation without her?

I think Jarla is fatalistic and deeply pessimistic about moving against Sforza but I don't see her tattling. Her position at court is basically nominal at this point (no more balls or feasts remember) and she can barely stand to be in the same room as Irene so she's still trying to figure her place out.

I'll try and come up with an excuse for her skipping town again even if it is only popping over to Ravenskird!

[LCP]

If she's researching her messenger service idea, maybe she might want to scout the road going that way?

For a first route to start the business with, Savonne <-> Manann's Keep or Savonne <-> Alvarran probably make the most sense in terms of demand and the quality of the roads, and a proper coach or courier line like the ones Jarla would have been familiar with in the Empire needs stops every 7-10 miles to change horses. So you if you were exploring the southern route, you'd probably be looking for a couple of good spots between Savonne and Ravenskird, and another 1 or 2 between Painford and Manann's Keep.

For Tilean teachers, there's always Irene it's accurate that pretty much anyone you grab who's been in service to the Sforzas for a decent time will have a decent command of the language. You don't need a high-ranking courtier.


Cool - if I were to request Local Knowledge (Painford) and Friendly Acquaintance (The Iron Company), how much would you charge me for those? Possibly also Friendly Acquaintance (Savonne Citizens)?

LK(Painford) - 150
FA(Iron Company) - 200
FA(Savonne) - 300 (that's a lot of people). If you wanted to descope it a bit and identify sub-groups in Savonne to be mates with, I'd be up for putting a lower price on that.


Edit - missed this question:


Yay for xp! With the 75 xp he's saved from before, Bardhyl ends up with 440 xp. It's bedtime for me, so I'll spend the xp tomorrow. I'll probably work towards completing Outlaw Chief, but is it also possible to buy skills and talents from earlier careers for 200 xp each? And do they need a logical explanation or can they just be bought based on past experience?

That's what I'm doing with Elsa and Speak Arcane Language. Generally it's 200 XP for any extracurricular skill or talent, as long as it has some justification - and having it from a previous career seems a decent justification.

[Thragka]

My memory of it agrees with LeSwordfish's - the Dwimmulsons raised that they'd heard allegations, which Sforza strenuously denied (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23253499&postcount=822). They didn't have proof.

Fair enough! Actually, upon seeing the original events in question, I think I’d confused the striking out of the grudge re. Evatt and the elf with the question of greenskin collaboration. Happy to be reminded of the historical record.

[rax]

Can I also clarify which hideout Bardhyl is sending them to? The one nearer Elmridge or the one nearer Bunthafen? The one nearer Elmridge. If Bardhyl is going to be leading the Raven Hills in rebellion, I figure he and his gang will be spending more time operating between there and Savonne than the hideout in the Downlands or the one closer to Bunthafen.


Besides, it's probably hard to justify Bardhyl showing up in the same group as Elsa. Can't imagine the Iron Company guards letting strangers anywhere near the book. I've just made an IC post setting up Bardhyl and the remainder of his gang to ride out the day before the book leaves Savonne, so he should be able to reach Ravenskird before the book arrives. Maybe not fast enough for the three of them to have a clandestine meeting, but hopefully Sieghard can finagle some time for that once Elsa gets there.


Is this the kind of thing Bardhyl could look into? That is, if he has spare time between his plots against Sforza. He could, but it does feel like we're a bit pressed for time. Elsa is welcome to try and convince him next time they run into each other.

Spending XP
After the usual agonizing, Bardhyl will spend 400 xp as follows:

200 xp to advance from +10 to +20 Toughness
100 xp for Lightning Parry
100 xp for Academic Knowledge (Strategy/Tactics)

I was going to buy Quick Draw, but I have a nagging feeling he'll be doing a fair amount of strategizing in the near future, and waiting a month to pick up the requisite "battle leader" skill seems too risky. So, AK (Strategy/Tactics) it is.

[rax]

@LCP

I don't know if you missed my post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25872996&postcount=866) (it was certainly short and sweet)? I didn't elaborate any further on Bardhyl's journey because I was unsure when he and his men would actually arrive in Ravenskird and if he'd be able to meet up with Ludo and Sieghard before Elsa arrives. I'm guessing maybe not, but any input on his travel times would be welcome. If it's too late to add Bardhyl to the mix in Ravenskird perhaps he missed the others there and rode straight on to Painford, so he'd be waiting for them there when they get back?

[TheSummoner]

Travel rate in normal conditions is 3 hex spaces per day. Savonne to Ravenskird by road or Painford crossing the river and going through Arrow Heap is 2 days. Ravenskird to Painford is an additional day.

Elsa left Savonne on the 33rd. She, Ludo, and Sieghard are in Ravenskird on the 1st and will reach Painford by the 2nd. Assuming Elsa wants to keep on the road and not delay, she'll set out on the morning of the 3rd. Bardhyl announced his intent to leave for Painford on the 32nd. Even if he waits until morning to set out, he's leaving on the same day Elsa is and can cover the same ground in the same time. Maybe faster since he doesn't have to escort a wagon carrying a magical WMD, but getting to Painford in one day of travel is impossible.

None of this addresses the issue of the Iron Company guards being unlikely to let him anywhere near Elsa or the wagon or the need for the rest of the party to keep up appearances when they're around, which is a bigger issue than the logistics of it.