[WFRP] The Bloody Crown OOC XV [Archive] - Page 4 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Destro_Yersul

2023-09-22, 03:17 AM

That's probably what I was thinking of, yeah. At some point when I'm back with my books I can perhaps look through the 40k lines for inspiration (we may be approaching Ascension levels), but all that stuff will need some pretty hefty toning down, I think it's almost impossible to reach the 70%+ levels we're rolling for for skill checks in most of those games.

Just popping in to say that this isn't entirely accurate, except for Dark Heresy 1e. Those talents are shared through a lot of the lines, and in stuff like Rogue Trader it's pretty easy to end up testing vs 100+ for things you invest heavily into. The RT in my Game has a base Fellowship of 72 before modifiers for skill. Black Crusade and Deathwatch are both relatively simple to hit higher skill scores just by being a Space Marine, but even the human characters in BC can get pretty nuts. DH1 though, yeah, it was harder.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-22, 06:31 AM

My memory is failing me, then! I definitely have most experience with DH1 (and OW, but the XP increases in that are buckwild and i hate them). I remembered getting some real high thresholds in Dark Heresy but only through stacking skill mastery and talents and gear.

LCP

2023-09-22, 12:08 PM

Unrelated to all the IC goings-on, I've got some travel coming up - I'm flying to Colombia tomorrow for a work meeting through next week, which won't take me completely out of contact but may mean I don't post as much. After that I'm taking the opportunity of being in that part of the world to commune with my god, Sotek go on holiday in Ecuador, for which I will be completely out of contact for 10 days (the 2nd-11th of October).

rax

2023-09-22, 01:06 PM

Sorry, yes - like TheSummoner says, Savonne -> Ravenskird is 2 days.

The Iron Company guards might be a problem if Bardhyl wants to open the chest the book is in and have a rummage around, but they're unlikely to shadow Elsa's every step or stop her from talking to who she pleases. Right, so if Bardhyl and co leave Savonne in the afternoon on the 32nd, they should be in Ravenskird on the 1st, the day after Sieghard and Ludo.

And for the record, Bardhyl meant what he said to Elsa. He's not after the book (at least not right now) and sees no real value in getting a closer look at it. It's not like he has the skill or magical power to do anything with it, let alone damage it. His interest in the book may change depending on how Elsa's research goes, but he reckons that then he'll at least know where the book is being kept.

Do you want me to just go ahead and post an arrival scene for Bardhyl and co in Ravenskird, or do you want to write a post like that yourself? I presume it's fine for me to then decide that Bardhyl runs into Ludo and Sieghard whenever I feel like it?

Edit: Removed a question about Elsa's travel times after re-reading the post in question.

LCP

2023-09-22, 02:00 PM

Don't feel you have to wait for me - you can write your own intro.

TheSummoner

2023-09-22, 05:02 PM

LeSwordfish

2023-09-22, 06:44 PM

Ludo was planning on carrying on to Savonne from Ravenskird. Do you need him for the Sieghard/Elsa/Bardhyl conversation? Or should he double back with you? Or can we try to find a more private place near Ravenskird?

EDIT: For clarity, I don't really mind which of these we go with. I'll be on planes for most of the day today so will see what you come up with tomorrow.

@LCP: the three things Ludo wants to do in Savonne are try to talk Al'Makir into lowering the taxes, try to talk Rudi into coming with us, and collect Hieronymous and his things. Any of those you specifically think we need to play out or shall I just write up how I plan for Ludo to go about those and make some rolls?

TheSummoner

2023-09-23, 12:48 AM

I don't think it really matters. If you want Ludo to be present, have him double back with Sieghard and Elsa. If you'd rather get the business in Savonne taken care of, Sieghard can handle things and if Ludo needs to, it's not unlikely he'll run into Bardhyl on his way back or be able to catch up with Elsa later. I'll move on to Painford leave things open ended for you.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-23, 12:54 AM

I'll carry on to Savonne. The only thing Ludo would want to specifically bring up at this meeting if we're all in on sedition is his plan to leak the orc information and blame it on either Carrociolo or Irene (probably the former). We can perhaps say he mentioned that to Sieghard in private on the journey.

TheSummoner

2023-09-23, 01:24 AM

Can do. Sieghard had a new shield commissioned before we set out to find Wadim. If enough time has passed for that to be finished, would Ludo be willing to pick it up while he's in Savonne? I'm sure Sieghard could give him an official-looking piece of paper with a squiggle on it to convince the shieldmaker he's not being scammed by a particularly persuasive hobbit.

LCP

2023-09-23, 06:53 AM

Did you already deduct the money for the shield or do you need to send it with Ludo?

Also yes, my post to rax applies to everyone - there are no surprise cutscenes waiting to jump out from the bushes, narrate your own movement between places as much as you please. Just keep the date tags as clear as possible if you can. Next couple of days are going to be sparse for me on account of travel + jetlag.

rax

2023-09-23, 07:56 AM

If it'll save you the effort, Sieghard isn't going to discuss this sort of thing in Ravenskird. He isn't bringing it up to Elsa yet and it wouldn't be any different with Bardhyl. Ravenskird is too open with too little guarantee of privacy relative to Painford and openly discussing treason is a good way to get your neck in a noose. I wasn't expecting Sieghard to stand around the town square discussing sedition, but I'm pretty sure it ought to be possible to find a spot away from most people to speak privately in the evening/at night. It's not as if the good people of Ravenskird don't have anything better to do than watch whatever Sieghard's up to 24/7. :smallsmile:

No point in getting into a long debate about this, though, so I'll have Bardhyl say hi to Sieghard in Ravenskird, then ride out to Painford in the morning. That will minimize the time he's in Ravenskird at the same time as the Iron Company men and make it less weird that he's in Painford and looking to continue their talk when Sieghard gets back.

LCP

2023-09-23, 08:07 AM

Sorry, forgot to respond to this:

@LCP: the three things Ludo wants to do in Savonne are try to talk Al'Makir into lowering the taxes, try to talk Rudi into coming with us, and collect Hieronymous and his things. Any of those you specifically think we need to play out or shall I just write up how I plan for Ludo to go about those and make some rolls?

The first 2 I'd definitely like to see how Ludo goes about them IC (though that's not mutually exclusive with him making skill rolls). For collecting Hieronymus, he's already on board so you don't need to write more there than you want.

rax

2023-09-23, 08:24 AM

@LCP

Is there an inn or hostel in Ravenskird where Bardhyl and his gang could check in, or would it be unremarkable for them to stake out a spot outside of the main concentration of houses and set up a camp? The idea is to not appear to be doing anything too weird.

LCP

2023-09-23, 08:29 AM

It wouldn't be at all remarkable for Bardhyl & co. to pitch camp on the outskirts of the village - as has been alluded to in the IC, there are already new arrivals from off the Downs doing basically the same thing.

In terms of lodging, the main places in town were destroyed during the war. Proooobably it's been long enough now that someone would have got something new going, seeing as how Ravenskird is on a pretty major road - if you'd rather sleep with a roof over your heads, then I can make up somewhere new.

rax

2023-09-23, 08:31 AM

No need, I just wanted to know what the options were. Bardhyl and co will be camping.

RossN

2023-09-23, 04:25 PM

Slightly squashed for time to post since I am in Tilea Italy on holiday but as a heads up essentially Jarla is going to try and woo Irene (not in that way) to use her influence in setting up her pony express. As... complicated as her attitude towards Irene is better to make friends than enemies at least at the moment.

Also I know this is going back a bit but I did see the D&D movie -Sentinel- and liked it! Wish it had done better business. :smallfrown:

Thragka

2023-09-23, 04:49 PM

Missed the chance to drop Urgrim in neatly at Ravenskird, and I don't want to mess up the timeline with protracted parallel conversations – I suggest Urgrim run into Ludo on the 2nd, as Urgi heads south on the River Road and Ludo heads north.

TheSummoner

2023-09-23, 10:48 PM

Did you already deduct the money for the shield or do you need to send it with Ludo?

Wasn't really specified whether they wanted money up front. IIRC, I mentioned my intention to have a best quality shield made after Filomena "legitimately purchased" the warehouses, so Sieghard did have the funds on him but there wasn't any followup beyond that. Realistically, I think they'd probably want a down payment for materials and as a guarantee for their work and Sieghard wouldn't want to pay the full amount up front. Split the difference and say half was paid then and half goes with the halfling?

LeSwordfish

2023-09-24, 12:35 AM

Composing big IC posts on my phone is a pain and now I've hit Preview Post and broken all the rolls. redoing them here:

Haggle vs 102, [roll0], reroll [roll1] if less than 3 DOS, otherwise +1 DOS - 4 DOS goes to 5 from the fortune point.
Charm vs 92 [roll2], reroll [roll3] - 6 DOS

And I've run out of time for Rudiposting, whoops! Will get back to him later. Similarly Ludo won't be in the Painford Bardhyl Chat just to reduce how many times i need to be in at once, but i realise nobody has yet told Sieghard about our fun mushroom times or killing the Wyvern. I will leave that to the others.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-24, 06:55 AM

Alright, lets talk to Rudi. Ideally Ludo would like to meet him in the kitchens, which I assume is where he'll be spending most of his time - I'll throw a Charm test at getting in there, presumably you can't just wander off the street. [roll0] vs 92

And then speaking to Rudi, Ludo will start with the argument in the IC (when i make it) - Leni wants to stay in Painford, he can work for the Steward Of The Thornwood. If and only if that doesn't work, he'll pull Rudi aside to a more private location and tell him the truth - someone has made a credible threat against Ludo's family, and he thinks having Rudi and Leni in Savonne is a specific risk to their lives above and beyond the general danger. He wants them in Painford where they can be protected. Only if Rudi really pushes will he admit that he thinks that Irene Sforza is the one who's made the threat.

If that still doesn't work... well, Ludo will make his apologies and leave Rudi to it, and have to come back with another plan.

Charm vs 92: [roll1] re-roll [roll2]

Thragka

2023-09-25, 01:32 AM

Ludo and Urgrim, 2nd Sommerzeit
"Did you see anything up there?"

https://i.imgur.com/4Up0jwQ.png

Thragka

2023-09-26, 05:01 AM

Throwing in a conversation opener or two into the River Road scene, for Ludo to fill Urgrim in on as much of recent events as he sees fit – played out, or summarised OOC, as I don't want to demand too much of LeSwordfish's holiday time and inconvenient access.

When Urgrim and Ludo do part, Urgrim will press on towards catching up with Elsa. Where that will be, and whom else he sees in the meantime, depends on how quickly she moves on from Painford.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-26, 09:24 AM

Yeah, sorry, I think a big IC or OOC summary is beyond me right now, and will probably remain as such for a week or so until I'm back in Blighty with my laptop. Happy to help with a proper summary then, though - I think Ludo trusts Urgi enough to tell him everything that's happened, with (for the moment) the exception of our treasonous plans.

You mentioned that Urgi would see the treason against Sforza as being sort of the ultimate oathbreaking - does it make things better if Ludo never actually swore any kind of Oath? We're mercenaries, of course, Ludo is a subject and an employee of Sforza, but not a Sworn Servant? Or is the "oath" implicit, and trying to kill your king is bad even if you never said out loud that he was your king?

(I have no idea if Sieghard or Elsa ever swore an oath of loyalty. I don't remember for Ludo either, but he's always been at a greater remove than them.)

-Sentinel-

2023-09-26, 10:01 AM

Slightly squashed for time to post since I am in Tilea Italy on holiday
Nice. What part of Italy? I've been to Rome and Naples.

Also I know this is going back a bit but I did see the D&D movie -Sentinel- and liked it! Wish it had done better business. :smallfrown:
Glad you liked it too. Real pity that a sequel is unlikely, because it's got a great cast with amazing chemistry.

(I have no idea if Sieghard or Elsa ever swore an oath of loyalty. I don't remember for Ludo either, but he's always been at a greater remove than them.)
I don't remember Elsa ever swearing any kind of oath. She lives in Sforzaland and is thus bound by Sforza's law, of course, but as far as she's concerned, her relationship with Sforza himself is merely employment as a mercenary. She'd object to any kind of "kissing the ring" feudal BS.

Sforza may see it differently, though. He believes he can have her imprisoned any time he wishes (which to my knowledge he hasn't done to any of his other subordinates), and he implied that he wouldn't accept her resignation. Soldiers are a dime a dozen, but wizards are not.

TheSummoner

2023-09-26, 11:04 AM

You mentioned that Urgi would see the treason against Sforza as being sort of the ultimate oathbreaking - does it make things better if Ludo never actually swore any kind of Oath? We're mercenaries, of course, Ludo is a subject and an employee of Sforza, but not a Sworn Servant? Or is the "oath" implicit, and trying to kill your king is bad even if you never said out loud that he was your king?

(I have no idea if Sieghard or Elsa ever swore an oath of loyalty. I don't remember for Ludo either, but he's always been at a greater remove than them.)

I don't remember Elsa ever swearing any kind of oath. She lives in Sforzaland and is thus bound by Sforza's law, of course, but as far as she's concerned, her relationship with Sforza himself is merely employment as a mercenary. She'd object to any kind of "kissing the ring" feudal BS.

Sforza may see it differently, though. He believes he can have her imprisoned any time he wishes (which to my knowledge he hasn't done to any of his other subordinates), and he implied that he wouldn't accept her resignation. Soldiers are a dime a dozen, but wizards are not.

Well, for Sieghard at least there was this.

The morning that Ludo departed, Sieghard shared his happy news with the rest of the group. Toasting their friend’s success, they saw Ludo off in style. ‘Steward of Painford’ might not quite be ‘Lord-Lieutenant of the North’, but it was more than Sieghard had ever dreamed was possible when he was younger. Sforza had lifted him up, even if he’d done it by grinding a lot of other people into the ground.

That afternoon, he was summoned to the castle to sign the letters of investiture that the Prince had drawn up for him. The writing looked very ornate and elaborate, but Sieghard couldn’t read a word. Abdul read it aloud instead.

“I, Prince Muzio Sforza, First Lord of Savonne and master of the Reaches, hereby name my servant Sieghard Steward of my village of Painford, and Warden of all the forests surrounding. My subjects living in these lands should give their loyalty to him as they would to myself, and take his word as my own on all matters, including the collection of taxes, the raising of men under arms, and judgements of law. Should he prove false in these duties, may the gods strike him dead.” Turning the letter round for Sieghard to sign, Abdul pointed to a blank space at the bottom. “You can just make an ‘X’ there.”

To be fair, none of that says anything about not killing him or his wife.

rax

2023-09-26, 11:22 AM

I don't think there's much reason for anyone to worry about the letter of the law in the Reaches. The law is whatever Sforza says it is and Elsa is his court wizard until he says otherwise. It's completely in character for Dwarves to think otherwise, but for the rest of the crew, any oaths of service - written or verbal - are only as binding as they want them to be. If they break an agreement with Sforza, I'm not getting the impression that he's going to hold a trial with an impartial judge to decide what to do about it - he'll make his own decision and claim it's lawful, period.

LCP

2023-09-26, 11:48 AM

I think that might fall under 'proving false' :smalltongue:

She'd object to any kind of "kissing the ring" feudal BS.

shoulda thought about that before installing a feudal monarch

Specifically in terms of how bad it might look from the perspective of the dwarfs for you guys to break your relationships with the crown, only Sieghard is a sworn vassal. Some of that might get a bit fuzzy in translation - dwarfs don't have the same exact social structure, and to them there's less gradation in the seriousness of promises. But you could probably turn it around too: does Sforza have oaths he's broken?

RossN

2023-09-26, 11:56 AM

Nice. What part of Italy? I've to Rome and Naples.

Near Rome. In fact today is the last day, we're flying back tomorrow.

A lot of fun but exhausting! :smallbiggrin:

Glad you liked it too. Real pity that a sequel is unlikely, because it's got a great cast with amazing chemistry.

Yeah. :(

Well that conversation with Irene was the latest in a wonderful line of bad decisions Jarla has made... :smallsigh:

There really isn't any good answer to any of Irene's question since Jarla's responses would all be treasonous ("I hate you now because I found out you had my brother killed - and I also think you are seriously harming the Reaches by your reckless feud with the wizard who is probably the only person who can save us. ") or treasonous and blasphemous ("I didn't run away to fight goblins I did it to get rid of the daemon in my head" ).

TheSummoner

2023-09-26, 12:01 PM

I think that might fall under 'proving false' :smalltongue:

But not in the matters of collection of taxes, the raising of men under arms, and judgements of law. Did Ludo and Adelbert reach the edge of the forest before Gunda's ambush? I wonder if he could make a case about that judgements of law part in punishing a murderer.

Well that conversation with Irene was the latest in a wonderful line of bad decisions Jarla has made... :smallsigh:

There really isn't any good answer to any of Irene's question since Jarla's responses would all be treasonous ("I hate you now because I found out you had my brother killed - and I also think you are seriously harming the Reaches by your reckless feud with the wizard who is probably the only person who can save us. ") or treasonous and blasphemous ("I didn't run away to fight goblins I did it to get rid of the daemon in my head" ).

"I crave danger, excitement, and adventure"

Thragka

2023-09-26, 04:11 PM

I think everything LCP mentions is pretty relevant to Urgrim's perspective. Some disconnected thoughts, because I'm too tired to write all nice-like:

Urgrim's opinions on this matter will be influenced both by cultural and personal values.
Cultural: Sieghard explicitly swore an oath to Sforza.
Personal: Urgrim was previously quite offended over the runic spear business; that's water under the bridge now, but Sieghard Being Disrespectful To (Dawi) Norms is definitely a pet peeve of Urgrim's.
Culturally, it very much looks like Ludo and Elsa have also validated implicit relationships with Sforza where he is a superior owed certain deference. Weren't they both technically officers in his army?
Personally, also, Urgrim thinks those implicit bonds are important. A good person doesn't betray somebody who has put trust in them. A person's word is important.
With regards to the above norms and values, cultural and personal, about relationships and responsibilities, explicit or implicit: it's worse (to Urgrim) if Sieghard violates those relationships than if Elsa does, and worse if Elsa does than if Ludo does.
When the responsibilities are explicit, arguing over their exact definitions in legalistic, letter-of-the-law terms might be a viable strategy for not alienating Dawi cultural norms (again, as far as Urgrim's opinions specifically are concerned); but on the other hand might make Sieghard look like more of an ******* (again, I stress, to Urgrim, on a personal level – Sieghard's a great character!).
But LCP is also fundamentally correct that there's a way to approach the matter to which Urgrim will be very receptive on both cultural and personal fronts. Urgrim has an Idea of what monarchy should be which is uncodified and probably inexpressible even to himself, and if Sforza's being a Bad King, there's a lot of scope for a moral argument about what the Right and Just thing to do about that is.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-26, 05:23 PM

Thanks, that's very helpful - I'm definitely trying to establish Urgrim-as-PC amd Thragka-as-Players opinions on this, not Dwarves-as-NPCs in general.

TheSummoner

2023-09-26, 11:32 PM

I imagine Urgrim (and dwarves in general) would probably have a better view of Sieghard in the scenario where there's open conflict, but Sforza is the aggressor rather than the one where Sforza is removed through subterfuge (if they somehow knew Sieghard's role in it). It's the scenario I'd prefer to avoid, but in that case, Sieghard has a legitimate argument that he can't give Sforza crops that aren't there. The dwarven outlook would probably be that Sieghard does owe the taxed crops, but as long as he made efforts to pay that debt in the future, he's done nothing wrong by not being able to pay it in the year a bunch of bugs are everything.

I'd also guess Urgrim would be more ok with Sieghard acting against Irene than the prince. It's mostly academic since Sieghard isn't likely to bring it up unless Urgrim pushes the issue (which he could if you want. I did have Sieghard promise to avenge Adelbert while Urgrim was present), but it's interesting to think about. She's a murderer after all. Why should it matter that she's the princess? The shameful thing is that she hasn't faced any consequences for it yet!

LeSwordfish

2023-09-27, 12:41 AM

TheSummoner

2023-09-27, 01:24 AM

I think Sieghard's overstating the difficulty of his own position after Sforcza comes out. I'm not sure what even his own followers will expect from him except from a sternly worded letter or public condemnation, I doubt the southerner Thorns will be demanding he goes to war with the Iron Company over it.

Proof or no proof, it's going to get them questioning their loyalty. That includes to Sieghard if they believe it's likely but see him not taking what they consider a strong enough stance on it.

I doubt Sforza will admit to it (we have enough evidence to make it a juicy theory but nothing conclusive). Maybe that weakens the idea, since he can't work against Carrociolo without admitting it's true? Or maybe it's fine, this is about diminishing public trust in him, and driving a wedge between the two men.

He's definitely not going to admit to anything. I'm not sure what he would do, but I doubt it's nothing.

I've been thinking about how to spread the rumor too. I think Bardhyl's people would be very useful here, in order to make it as hard as possible to trace the rumour back to a single person or organisation, and make it more organic.

They'd be an option. As would those Alvarr-loyalist-turned-bandits if we can get them over to our side by promising Sforza's head. They probably have connections back in Alvarran after all.

I may as well outline Sieghard's thoughts and priorities in a disconnected bullet point list just to get everything out there.
Sieghard's ultimate goal is to kill both Sforzas with as little bloodshed and as little upheaval as possible.
Nahorek is still out there and is still the bigger threat. It's not enough to stop Sforza from sucking the Reaches dry, they have to remain strong enough to deal with Nahorek.
The less damage done to the current structure, the more ability we have to make use of it in the aftermath.
Every soldier who dies is one less who can stand against Nahorek.
Sieghard would like to personally kill Irene to avenge Adelbert, but OOC I'm willing to have him step and let Ludo or Jarla do the deed if either wants to since it's more directly personal for them. The same would apply to Elsa, but she's busy on her book mission and unlikely to have the opportunity. As for Muzio, Sieghard doesn't care as long as he's gone.
Sieghard realizes that Carraciolo is a potential future obstacle, but has no personal animosity towards him. In the current circumstances, he would prefer minimize Carraciolo's influence in a way that doesn't involve killing him or alienating him from the rest of the Sforza's court. This is partly due to the no animosity thing and Sieghard not being that ruthless, partly due to Jarla being fond of him, and partly due to the Nahorek threat and Carraciolo having largest number of soldiers. Trying to make him a puppet king with little actual power would probably be Sieghard's preferred solution. I realize there are many ways this could backfire, but see that as a "well, if it happens, we'll deal with it then" sort of thing.
Though there's little risk of any PCs suffering direct consequences, digging up the orc conspiracy drives a wedge between between the dwarfs who we need as allies and the surviving part of Sforza's court who we also need.

Sieghard can probably be swayed, especially as circumstances change, and there's always the option of going behind his back. That's where he stands currently though.

Thragka

2023-09-27, 02:00 AM

Oh yeah, another point I could and probably should make clear is that Urgrim’s on board with acting against Irene; he wants vengeance for Adelbert too. There’s a spectrum of Correct and Honourable ways to obtain that vengeance: on the extreme end of Correct is walking into the throne room in Savonne in front of the gods and Sforza, challenging her for her crimes, and executing her in single combat, while on the extremely Incorrect end we’d just have her poisoned.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-27, 03:42 AM

Ludo's primary goal is to protect his family, and removing Irene from the board seems like the only effective way to do that, given that she's shown willingness and ability to harm them. I don't think he's bloodthirsty enough to demand her dead, but that's probably the best way to avoid her, at least, just hiring some thug to stab them.
His secondary goal is to protect Painford, and more broadly "the people of the reaches", vague a term as that is. Regime change seems like a reasonable way to achieve that - replace Sforza with somebody more likely to share things out fairly and be prepared to defend against the Jackal. Ludo admires Sieghard a lit, and believes he would be a good person for that. Reasonable alternatives might be some other person (Valdez? Bardhyl?) or some kind of Magna Carta esque agreement enforced on Sforza? Which could include trying to get Irene exiled.
Very tertiary to this is his original reasons for disliking Sforza - working with the Orcs, the way he treated Beatrix, some other stuff I'm forgetting. Ultimately though, I don't think Ludo hates Sforza enough to want him dead at the cost of stability, all else being equal.

What was the situation like in Last Water pre-Sforza?

Thragka

2023-09-27, 06:52 AM

What was the situation like in Last Water pre-Sforza?

https://i.imgur.com/4COsrsL.png

LCP

2023-09-27, 11:44 AM

What was the situation like in Last Water pre-Sforza?

IIRC, I think there was a very small-time local ruler in Mirino who Sforza squashed when he arrived. Sermena and Isolici would have been mostly left to their own devices. Sforza's arrival brought more people and money to the region, but with much stronger central control and the maintenance of his army becoming the economic centre of gravity.

Revisiting something I think we've discussed before, in the context of all the scheming - it's 100% correct that in the event of no more Sforza, Carraciolo has the most soldiers under his direct command, but that doesn't give him legitimacy as a successor. For him to step into Sforza's shoes would require him to nominate himself as the candidate and use the power he's got to persuade the other lords to back him (or crush them if they didn't). You might well ask, is that something you know he'd want to do?

Just wanted to bring that back up because I think it would be reasonably clear to your characters that the field of potential successors has the potential to be more open than just Carraciolo. It's not the case that everyone will automatically agree that he has the most soldiers so should be king - a lot of other considerations could come into it.

rax

2023-09-27, 01:03 PM

Just wanted to bring that back up because I think it would be reasonably clear to your characters that the field of potential successors has the potential to be more open than just Carraciolo. It's not the case that everyone will automatically agree that he has the most soldiers so should be king - a lot of other considerations could come into it. Thank you, almighty GM, for saying it loud and clear! :smallsmile:

LeSwordfish

2023-09-27, 09:03 PM

IIRC, I think there was a very small-time local ruler in Mirino who Sforza squashed when he arrived. Sermena and Isolici would have been mostly left to their own devices. Sforza's arrival brought more people and money to the region, but with much stronger central control and the maintenance of his army becoming the economic centre of gravity.

Ah okay - just trying to calibrate how Ludo feels about His Lord - Sforza neither ended a reign of terror nor overthrew the democratically elected People's Socialist Republic Of Narnia, good to know. Sounds like Odo would like him a lot, a huge customer for the mine. I wonder if Ludo knew Al'Makir before the campaign started, he would presumably have cut some fairly extensive deals with Odo.

Just wanted to bring that back up because I think it would be reasonably clear to your characters that the field of potential successors has the potential to be more open than just Carraciolo. It's not the case that everyone will automatically agree that he has the most soldiers so should be king - a lot of other considerations could come into it.

I wrote up a whole thing about how I think none of the others are all that likely to make a grab for power but then my phone ate it. We have indeed had this conversation before so I won't waste time arguing with the voice of god and will instead do something more productive: rolling dice.

Common Lore (Broken Reaches) vs 48 [roll0]: who amongst Sforza's court - or the various Savonna bigwigs - is known for their ambition? Who commands a lot of popular support? Who is popular or well-liked outside of the immediate soldiers they command? Re-roll: [roll1]

Where are the two Militia Companies now? The Volunteers are with Valdez in Mirino, right - are the old Manaan's Keep soldiers in Putbad or Bunthafen? Who is now in Manaan's Keep with Sussman?

TheSummoner

2023-09-27, 10:59 PM

To be clear, with Carraciolo my concern isn't so much that I think everyone will fall in line behind him automatically than it is I think he's more likely to cause complications than the other possible contenders.

Where are the two Militia Companies now? The Volunteers are with Valdez in Mirino, right - are the old Manaan's Keep soldiers in Putbad or Bunthafen? Who is now in Manaan's Keep with Sussman?

The halberdiers more or less became the Savonne city watch, I believe. I think Manaan's Keep is garrisoned by Valdes' men - whether that means the brotherhood or Volunteers, I'm unsure since he's currently in charge of both.

LeSwordfish

2023-09-28, 12:15 AM

Ah! If the Halberdiers are in Manaan's Keep I might stick my head in on Jan Norten while I'm here, depending on if Rudi is keeping me. I assume it's obvious from the IC but I'm done with Al'Makir unless he has something for me.

LCP

2023-09-28, 12:36 PM

Ah okay - just trying to calibrate how Ludo feels about His Lord - Sforza neither ended a reign of terror nor overthrew the democratically elected People's Socialist Republic Of Narnia, good to know. Sounds like Odo would like him a lot, a huge customer for the mine. I wonder if Ludo knew Al'Makir before the campaign started, he would presumably have cut some fairly extensive deals with Odo.

Yep. I don't think we ever went into great detail on who was in charge in Mirino pre-Sforza, but I'd imagine they'd fit the template of a petty thug. If you want to make up any details as part of Ludo's backstory then I wouldn't object.

I can definitely see Odo being pro-Sforza. He'd be a big customer, he's got cash, he's got (a certain kind of) class. To someone like Odo the Sforzas are definitely the Right Kind of People. Pretty plausible there would have been some regular interaction with Al-Makir at the mine, although I don't think that strenuous negotiations would have been necessary.

I wrote up a whole thing about how I think none of the others are all that likely to make a grab for power but then my phone ate it. We have indeed had this conversation before so I won't waste time arguing with the voice of god and will instead do something more productive: rolling dice.

Common Lore (Broken Reaches) vs 48 [roll0]: who amongst Sforza's court - or the various Savonna bigwigs - is known for their ambition? Who commands a lot of popular support? Who is popular or well-liked outside of the immediate soldiers they command? Re-roll: [roll1]

Yeah, I'm not trying to argue with your characters' IC arguments, just trying to make sure the picture is clear. It's very plausible that Carraciolo would succeed Sforza, probably more plausible than anyone else - I just wanted to make it clear that the other possible candidates wouldn't necessarily be assuming that was the default course.

No-one among Sforza's inner circle (Carraciolo, Valdes, Al-Makir, Barbaro) is known for going around singing 'I Just Can't Wait to Be King'. Carraciolo maybe fits the description of 'ambitious' best, being someone who was promoted from the ranks, but Iron Company loyalty to the name of Sforza is strong, and with both Sforza and Irene reasonably young and in good health, non-Sforza succession was never in the forefront of people's minds. Valdes is of noble blood, and well-liked by soldiers outside his own company, but has generally seemed more interested in his leadership of the Brotherhood than in land or loot. For Al-Makir to make a direct bid for power himself would be very out of character (but you probably already have that picture for the IC). Barbaro is Barbaro.

Outside the inner circle, there are a good number of wealthy people in Savonne and Putbad who might be tempted to stick their oar in (and the Putbad guilders have meddled in the politics of who rules in Savonne before). No obvious candidates waiting in the wings, though, and anyone coming forward from outside the court would probably have less legitimacy in the eyes of e.g. the Lords-Lieutenant than someone from inside.

Where are the two Militia Companies now? The Volunteers are with Valdez in Mirino, right - are the old Manaan's Keep soldiers in Putbad or Bunthafen? Who is now in Manaan's Keep with Sussman?

Volunteers in Mirino, halberdiers in Savonne. Sussman has soldiers borrowed from Valdes - probably a mix of Brotherhood men and Volunteers.

@RossN - this may be a question you can't yet answer, but is Jarla still going to be in Savonne by the time that Ludo arrives?

RossN

2023-09-28, 12:58 PM

@RossN - this may be a question you can't yet answer, but is Jarla still going to be in Savonne by the time that Ludo arrives?

I think so yes.

Also dang that was a good roll from Irene. Are we sure she hasn't been the real hypnohobbit all along? :smalleek:

rax

2023-09-28, 12:59 PM

I'm managing a splitting headache today, so the most I can manage in the way of posting right now is one-liners. Something more considered is called for in Bardhyl's interaction with Sieghard, so unless the headache clears up miraculously, I think an IC post will have to wait till tomorrow. Sorry all!

RossN

2023-09-28, 01:00 PM

Will Power: [roll0] vs 42

Edit: Uh oh...

LCP

2023-09-28, 01:14 PM

RossN

2023-09-28, 01:23 PM

Remember that social skills used on PCs are just to inform your response (on how persuasive this NPC seems), not to compel you. You can assign whatever difficulty to Irene's roll you think is appropriate.

It definitely made an impact on Jarla!

Jarla has very complicated, very conflicted feelings towards Irene. There is definitely hate and anger and fear but there is also awe and affection, maybe even an element of love there.

It's very messy! :smallbiggrin:

-Sentinel-

2023-09-28, 03:38 PM

but Iron Company loyalty to the name of Sforza is strong, and with both Sforza and Irene reasonably young and in good health, non-Sforza succession was never in the forefront of people's minds.
Oh, that's worrisome. :smalleek: Until now, I just assumed someone like Irene had pretty much zero chance of ruling in her own name in a place like the Border Princes.

Valdes is of noble blood,
Interesting. I missed that part. (Though I assume it can be inferred from his accent and other details.)

It definitely made an impact on Jarla!

Jarla has very complicated, very conflicted feelings towards Irene. There is definitely hate and anger and fear but there is also awe and affection, maybe even an element of love there.
idk, but personally, if someone were responsible for the death of my brother and then expressed views towards commoners that make Marie-Antoinette look like Vladimir Lenin, they'd be taking a hefty penalty in all Fellowship tests directed at me. :smalltongue:

LCP

2023-09-28, 03:54 PM

Oh, that's worrisome. :smalleek: Until now, I just assumed someone like Irene had pretty much zero chance of ruling in her own name in a place like the Border Princes.

Probably no-one is banking on Irene being Sforza's direct successor either (particularly since they shared the happy news). But fundamentally, the only thing Muzio's really got going for him that she hasn't is battlefield experience. The kingdom isn't in the middle of a war right now: if she could secure the loyalty of a competent general, why wouldn't she have a credible claim?

idk, but personally, if someone were responsible for the death of my brother and then expressed views towards commoners that make Marie-Antoinette look like Vladimir Lenin, they'd be taking a hefty penalty in all Fellowship tests directed at me. :smalltongue:

yes, but: what if they were hot

-Sentinel-

2023-09-28, 04:07 PM

yes, but: what if they were hot
I figure hotness is already factored into her 80+ Charm skill.

In all honesty though, I'm curious where Irene and Jarla are headed.

RossN

2023-09-28, 06:16 PM

yes, but: what if they were hot

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hmdys1gtAM8/WOHWMe8UPRI/AAAAAAAAZEc/in6h3RUFhBUiFxiesjPbcVEyxhCva1x8ACLcB/s1600/339960.jpg

LeSwordfish

2023-09-28, 07:52 PM

Probably no-one is banking on Irene being Sforza's direct successor either (particularly since they shared the happy news). But fundamentally, the only thing Muzio's really got going for him that she hasn't is battlefield experience. The kingdom isn't in the middle of a war right now: if she could secure the loyalty of a competent general, why wouldn't she have a credible claim?

Personally the reason I've not been thinking of Irene is that whatever plan we use for getting rid of Sforza should also get rid of her too.

While I'm here in Savonne, does anyone think I should try and break Sanne Raven-Cry out? I guess Ludo has some time to kill.

EDIT: Ludo has 415 XP, so will buy both the Friendly Acquaintance and Local Knowledge we discussed a few pages back - I'll add them to his sheet now. That will leave him with 65xp.

TheSummoner

2023-09-28, 10:51 PM

Yeah, I have a few ideas I've been turning around in my head but haven't really elaborated on because it feels too early and I don't want to influence anyone else's actions. All of them either have Irene dying first or at the same time as her husband though. I've acknowledged "Irene takes the throne" as a possibility, but also as the worst possible outcome and one to be avoided at all costs.

While I'm here in Savonne, does anyone think I should try and break Sanne Raven-Cry out? I guess Ludo has some time to kill.

Do what you like, but her escaping might be conspicuous given Elsa and Sieghard's previous interest in her. You could probably easily manage to sneak in to see her/get her some food, but getting her out and past the castle guards is going to be a lot more difficult. A breakout attempt might also make it hard for Ludo to balance everything else going on. Irene's likely to catch word of Rudi wanting to leave and I wouldn't put it past her to piece together the reason why. You're likely going to have to deal something from her before getting out of the city.

Valdes is of noble blood

Should I read this as implying that Carraciolo isn't? I've been assuming they both were.

-Sentinel-

2023-09-29, 08:39 AM

While I'm here in Savonne, does anyone think I should try and break Sanne Raven-Cry out? I guess Ludo has some time to kill.
I don't think this is the sort of thing you should do just because you have "time to kill". If Ludo is caught, the consequences will be devastating.

Bardhyl might be in the best position to do something about Sanne. Not via a daring jailbreak, but by taking hostage someone Mauro cares about. If things go sideways for him, it doesn't implicate the other PCs; and if he succeeds, his legend grows among the Vrani.

Thragka

2023-09-29, 08:50 AM

Sentinel, is Elsa going to still be in Painford on the 4th? That’s the earliest Urgrim would get there by.

-Sentinel-

2023-09-29, 11:30 AM

Sentinel, is Elsa going to still be in Painford on the 4th? That’s the earliest Urgrim would get there by.
Hmm. That's unlikely, I'm afraid. I just don't see how Elsa can justify stopping the convoy carrying a sentient WMD for an entire day (or two days if Urgrim would get there in the evening of the 4th).

Thragka

2023-09-29, 11:59 AM

TheSummoner

2023-09-29, 12:05 PM

None at all. Unsure how long rax plans on having Bardhyl stick around, but I don't think anything happening now will affect Sieghard talking to Urgrim, so no reason not to timesplit it.

rax

2023-09-29, 02:09 PM

Not to worry, that’s what I assumed. Urgrim’s following Elsa but he’ll also stop in Painford to check in with Sieghard (and meet Bardhyl) – TheSummoner, rax, any objections to my moving forward/timesplitting t that happening on the 4th? I imagine Bardhyl can drag out the stay for an extra day or two unless he manages to piss off Sieghard so much that he gets kicked out. :smallamused:

TheSummoner

2023-10-02, 04:18 PM

Posting from work, so I have to make this quick. Home from work now, so I'll expand on this.

Sieghard isn't being difficult because I want some sort of social roll, it's in reaction to the situation. I'll break down his perspective a bit.

In general, Sieghard tends toward being blunt and stubborn. In interactions with Bardhyl, they barely know eachother - this is in part because Bardhyl is still the new guy of the group and also because Sieghard missed out on the latter half of what's happened since he joined. (The OOC reasoning for that was I thought it was probably important that Elsa see what Wadim wanted to show her, but she was more concerned with the farmers, so I had Sieghard offer to take care of that so there wouldn't be anything stopping her from going. No one's fault there, but it does leave Sieghard a bit out of the loop). In the current situation, Sieghard is dealing with a major crisis where whether many people (himself and those he cares most about among them) live or die depends on what he does. He's busy, stressed out, and mentally exhausted. That's Sieghard's baseline.

From Sieghard's perspective, the scene plays out like this. Bardhyl's setup is "come see me and I'll tell you about the wyvern". Sieghard is far more worried about the famine, but goes to hear Bardhyl's tale all the same. Bardhyl changes the subject to "maybe you've got something else on your mind." Sieghard's reacts with an exasperated "It should be very obvious what I have on my mind." I was going for frustration in general rather than at Bardhyl specifically, though in retrospect I can see how it may have come off too strong. Bardhyl doesn't take it personally, but then presents a scenario where it's Sforza vs Painford and starts questioning Sieghard on his loyalties. This is... Not a very effective approach. It's a question with no good answer - If Sieghard says he answers to the prince first and word gets out, it causes trouble in the village. If he says he prioritizes Painford's wellbeing and word gets out, it causes trouble with Sforza. It's a question where unless Sieghard is certain he can speak freely, a non-answer is the best option, so that's the response Sieghard gives. He downplays the situation and dismisses the Sforza vs Painford part and acknowledges that things are bad ("people will have to tighten their belts"), but we'll survive. Bardhyl presses on with the same tactic and refers to the situation where Sieghard said it was bad but survivable as "good fortune". Sieghard gets more frustrated at that, points out the only thing they have in abundance are tree bark and swamp water and says that Sforza is welcome to his fill of it. Because again, unless Sieghard thinks he can speak freely, he has to acknowledge Sforza's right as prince to whatever he thinks he's entitled to. He cannot refuse Sforza, the best he can do is say "If Sforza wants crops and meat and there are no crops and meat here, Sforza will have to get crops and meat from somewhere that has crops and meat." Bardhyl is still pressing on with the same line of questioning that Sieghard has refused to answer twice.

As for why Sieghard doesn't think he can speak freely, this goes back to them not knowing him all that well. Bardhyl has some indication of where Sieghard lies with this sort of thing... He knows from previous interactions that, at least to some extent, he and the others are willing to go behind Sforza's back. IIRC, Sieghard made some comments critical of Sforza out in the Teeth when there was no risk to it. Bardhyl also knows that Sieghard cares about Painford (or at minimum, that the villagers get the impression that he does). OOC, I might have an idea where you're going with this, but IC Sieghard doesn't have the same benefit when it comes to Bardhyl's perspective and Bardhyl hasn't offered it. The most he can go off of is Ludo's comment about Bardhyl being prepared to resist attempts from the Iron Company to take food from the Raven Hills. Playing into Sieghard's concern over the famine without minimizing it or going into Bardhyl's own concerns and drawing a parallel between the situations both would be better approaches than trying to put Sieghard on the spot with questions he doesn't feel he can answer. Regardless of how you want to do it, you've gotta throw something out there for Sieghard to grasp onto. Bardhyl knows enough to guess at what Sieghard wants. Use that.

LCP

2023-10-02, 05:27 PM

Just arrived in Ecuador - have put an update up, but any more that I can make for the next ~10 days will be the exception not the norm.

Thragka

2023-10-07, 12:25 PM

I've made an Urgrim post in response to the conversations with both Ludo and Sieghard. From my end I don't think there's anything essential I'm waiting on my conversation partners for in those; it's just good to get some practice jumping back into Urgrim's headspace.

I guess it makes sense for Urgrim to meet Bardhyl while he's in Painford, but it looks like it might be useful for me to wait for the timesplit Bardhyl/Sieghard conversation to resolve a little bit further first, so that we know what attitudes all the PCs are taking to each other. :smallbiggrin: It suits me at the moment not to rush this while LCP's away, because I'm currently a little under the weather with a persistent infection. Nothing serious, it's just taking a little while for antibiotics to clear it and so I've been pretty fatigued for the past week.

I had the great luck and privilege to visit and travel across Ecuador coming up on six years ago, now. It's a country replete in natural and cultural beauty, and I trust LCP will be able to make the most of his time there!

rax

2023-10-09, 12:23 PM

@Thragka

Bardhyl and Sieghard's conversation just ran out of steam. I reckon Bardhyl and his men will avail themselves of Sieghard's permission to hunt for a day or so, so I guess we can assume that Bardhyl will still be around on the 4th, but he'll definitely be wanting to head back to Savonne and beyond soon after.

TheSummoner

2023-10-09, 02:01 PM

That's a shame. I had been hoping to work out some sort of scheme to have Irene kidnapped (and executed), but if Bardhyl is set on open war, then coordinatuin is a non-starter.

As far as Sieghard is concerned, the Reaches aren't broken anymore. It's the one potential long term good to come from Sforza's rule. He'll defend his territory if pushed into a corner and prepare as needed, but things aren't to that point and he's not about to get himself branded as a traitor making the first move.

rax

2023-10-09, 04:16 PM

I don't believe that Bardhyl has at any point said anything about wanting to start a war, nor have I advocated for that as the only solution OOC.

The purpose of the conversations Bardhyl has been having has been to sound out Sieghard and the others to see if there's any chance they would consider turning on Sforza. If he'd gotten something like that from Sieghard, the next step would have been to discuss how that could be accomplished to everyone's mutual satisfaction.

However, since Sieghard, Elsa and Jarla consistently went with "we're Team Sforza all the way", Bardhyl is cutting his losses and will explore other avenues. We'll see what happens.

LeSwordfish

2023-10-10, 01:22 AM

It's a little disappointing that the IC will isn't there, especially when Ludo is kind of IC committed to trying to kill the queen because she's trying to kill him and he said he would. I don't think this is something to spin plates or be reactive about - we have a fairly strict IC timeline here.

I don't really disagree with "a stable reaches is the best way to defeat Nahorek" but I think we might have more fun if our characters found a way to believe it a little less. Apart from anything else, with Sforza in charge the reaches are fully united behind a position of "there's no more vampires, go back to sleep."

If we're not doing any plan that starts with "step one: get the resources of the reaches unser our control" then what ARE we doing about Nahorek? Destroying the book withva ritual could take six months - how many more full moon Tribulations can we take? What are they escalating to? And even once the book is destroyed, Nahorek's still kicking around, right? I'm not really opposed to a period of consolidation but it seems like everyone except Bardhyl is going to hunker down.

I'm not sure if Ludo has specifically told Bardhyl "the queen is trying to kill me and my family" but perhaps we can coincidentally meet on the way back fron Savonne and talk about that: enough, at least, to establish that we're allies and maybe make a plan on this.

-Sentinel-

2023-10-10, 09:05 AM

I sorta agree, LeSwordfish.

Problem is, Elsa's hands are a bit tied. Sforza was willing to have her imprisoned to force her to come up with a solution, and I've no doubt he'll do it again if need be. His position is clear: "Resignations not accepted." If she doesn't work on that ritual, she essentially becomes an outlaw, thus losing access to the Book and becoming unable to either protect it or destroy it.

During the lengthy parts of Elsa's ritual creation process, it's possible that I'll need a temporary PC, like RossN did when Adelbert fully switched to Alvarr's side. If so, then I'll make sure it's someone who's in a good position and has the right motivations to shake things up.

TheSummoner

2023-10-10, 11:26 AM

I don't believe that Bardhyl has at any point said anything about wanting to start a war, nor have I advocated for that as the only solution OOC.

What was the objection to "Don't be so eager to start another [war]." or "strike out at [Sforza] in a way that isn't just going to get a bunch of people killed." then?

It's a little disappointing that the IC will isn't there, especially when Ludo is kind of IC committed to trying to kill the queen because she's trying to kill him and he said he would. I don't think this is something to spin plates or be reactive about - we have a fairly strict IC timeline here.

Sieghard absolutely has the IC will to go after Irene. What he doesn't have the will for is acting in the open. Assassin and subterfuge causes less problems (for everyone) than rebellion and defiance.

As for the prince himself, it's similar but not quite as far on the scale. Sieghard is reluctant to go as far as having him killed, but is fighting with the idea that it may be necessary. As such, he'll make the preparations that may prove necessary, but something (either good persuasion from someone else or Sforza going too far) will have to give him a push before he acts on it. And assassination is still the better method.

Edit:

During the lengthy parts of Elsa's ritual creation process, it's possible that I'll need a temporary PC, like RossN did when Adelbert fully switched to Alvarr's side. If so, then I'll make sure it's someone who's in a good position and has the right motivations to shake things up.

Probably not necessary. I doubt LCP would've brought Urgrim back and placed him in Elsa's guard if he didn't have something in mind for the two of them to do.

rax

2023-10-10, 02:06 PM

What was the objection to "Don't be so eager to start another [war]." or "strike out at [Sforza] in a way that isn't just going to get a bunch of people killed." then? Bardhyl cares for his people and doesn't want to drag them into a war they can't win, but Sieghard keeps reading Bardhyl's questions and arguments as a desire for open war. Sieghard's quoted responses therefore read as him being unable or unwilling to understand what Bardhyl's talking about while also giving advice that won't achieve Bardhyl's goal of toppling Sforza (since it's quite clear to Bardhyl that he's very unlikely to be able to get rid of Sforza with just the resources at his disposal). Since Sieghard also repeatedly emphasized that he wants Sforza to remain in place, there seemed to be no further use in talking.

What Bardhyl wants from these conversations has already been said IC: "...I understand the risks and you're right - I can't get rid of Sforza by myself, not even with the Vrani united behind me. So, I need allies. I need information. I need money and manpower, and I need a candidate to take Sforza's place who I can trust to do a better job. And the way to get that is to have conversations like this - to find enough people who are willing to commit to make this change happen."

Re assassination, that still requires planning the deed, carrying it out, and controlling the succession. Bardhyl could contrive to do the deed but has no means of controlling the succession to get an agreeable candidate on the throne. For that he needs the connections and - in case the succession is disputed - the manpower of the PCs and preferably a number of the NPC power players. Ludo might be able to help Bardhyl meet up with useful NPCs, but he won't be bringing any other resources to the show, which the NPCs will surely also observe.

Re striking at Irene, I hope it's clear that Bardhyl has no reasons of his own to go after her, and killing her is a huge risk for him. If the deed can be traced to him and/or the Vrani as a whole, then Sforza will likely march into the Hills and slaughter everyone he can find. At the very least he'll probably be happy to kill Vrani until someone gives Bardhyl up. The only way I currently see him agreeing to be party to such a deed is if it's a package deal - if Irene goes, so does the Prince.

Disregarding Bardhyl's reasons for not wanting to kill Irene, my reading of Sforza is that he's likely to go berserk if his wife - who is also carrying his child - is killed. If you want "stability", murdering the wife of the military dictator you're counting on to provide that stability is much more likely to seriously destabilize his regime. Either Sforza goes nuclear trying to find the culprits or he's so grief-stricken that he withdraws from running his domain, resulting in a collapse in confidence in his leadership.

@LeSwordfish
I'm all for having Ludo and Bardhyl meet and keep talking/plotting. Bardhyl will certainly be sympathetic to Ludo's plight with Irene if he's told, but see above for his attitude to going after her specifically. He'd really need to see a quid pro quo coming out of him agreeing to do any harm to Irene, and not only because of the risks - Bardhyl is an outlaw, but he doesn't see himself as a murderer for hire. If he agrees to do it, its got to be because it serves a greater purpose.

LCP

2023-10-10, 05:05 PM

Posting from hols, flying home tomorrow.

Problem is, Elsa's hands are a bit tied. Sforza was willing to have her imprisoned to force her to come up with a solution, and I've no doubt he'll do it again if need be. His position is clear: "Resignations not accepted." If she doesn't work on that ritual, she essentially becomes an outlaw, thus losing access to the Book and becoming unable to either protect it or destroy it.

Are you sure you aren't still thinking in Savonne mode? In Caerfort Elsa is a solid week's travel away from Sforza's court, and the best route goes through Sieghard's land. What does Sforza trying to take away her access look like?

-Sentinel-

2023-10-10, 05:48 PM

Are you sure you aren't still thinking in Savonne mode? In Caerfort Elsa is a solid week's travel away from Sforza's court, and the best route goes through Sieghard's land. What does Sforza trying to take away her access look like?
I'm sure she can still run errands to Mirino if need be, but any absence longer than a few days is sure to worry her security detail.

And she can't carry the Book around. Too risky.

LCP

2023-10-13, 12:59 PM

I'm back home and (kinda) over the jetlag. Work have asked me to head straight back out on another plane on Sunday (this time to the US for a week), but I should be able to stay in touch during that time - just posting from a different timezone + with some gaps at either end.

I'm sure she can still run errands to Mirino if need be, but any absence longer than a few days is sure to worry her security detail.

And she can't carry the Book around. Too risky.

Well, just bear in mind, her security detail after she gets there aren't going to be Iron Company. They're going to be acting on their own initiative if unusual circumstances arise, they're probably going to see Elsa as the #1 expert on What To Do About Spooky Books, and if they do feel the need to involve a senior officer, they're probably going to go through Valdes first.

Not trying too far ahead of ourselves, just trying to make it clear that Sforza's reach has its limits. Of course, exactly how sensible any action would be depends entirely on what that action is.

Speaking of Elsa getting to Caerfort, should I wait any further for Sieghard & Bardhyl? Seems like no, but from the OOC discussion I thought I should check.

rax

2023-10-13, 02:23 PM

TheSummoner

2023-10-13, 10:49 PM

Nothing pressing from Sieghard.

RossN

2023-10-14, 11:25 AM

Sorry rax Jarla has been kind of sucked into this conversation with Irene so she hasn't really be available to interact with the others for the moment especially since I've no idea where it is going so I can't really 'flash ahead'.

Quiet honestly if Irene didn't have a hold band of guards with her Jarla would probably have shot her once it became clear she was hell bent on getting rid of Elsa and Ludo in the terminal sense as against 'just' a bit of spiteful feuding. As it is she's going to have to appear to be Irene's lapdog until she can properly get word to her friends. :smalleek:

LeSwordfish

2023-10-14, 12:20 PM

Quiet honestly if Irene didn't have a hold band of guards with her Jarla would probably have shot her

I didn't mean to interject but this was what i was rooting for as a spectator.

TheSummoner

2023-10-14, 12:32 PM

As it is she's going to have to appear to be Irene's lapdog until she can properly get word to her friends. :smalleek:

Honestly, that's probably the single best thing she could do. Hide her disgust, play the role for a bit, and wait until either there is an opportunity or we can use Jarla's proximity to Irene to create one.

rax

2023-10-14, 05:44 PM

Sorry rax Jarla has been kind of sucked into this conversation with Irene so she hasn't really be available to interact with the others for the moment especially since I've no idea where it is going so I can't really 'flash ahead'. That's fine. To be perfectly honest, Bardhyl has pretty much written off Jarla as an ally against Sforza and he's also wary of letting her in on his plans. For all the time he's known her, she's come across as "flaky" (for want of a better word) and the last time they spoke she insisted that there was no hope for the future of the Reaches even if Sforza is overthrown. So, not exactly an ideal ally in a clandestine plot to seize power.

LCP

2023-10-16, 12:16 PM

Now in the US and awake at a time when people are supposed to be awake. I've put this short update up for Jarla because it has a fairly strong impact on being able to resolve anything more for Ludo. After that I think most things look clear to finish the first week. Only other thing I'm not clear on is what do Bardhyl's movements look like following his visit to Sieghard? Is he hanging around in the south or heading back to Savonne?

rax

2023-10-16, 03:46 PM

My intention was for Bardhyl to hang around until the 4th, making it possible for Urgrim to meet Bardhyl and vice versa. Of course, that depends on Thragka finding the time to introduce Urgrim IC. Since he hasn't posted in over a week now, I assume he's busy or indisposed. If he hasn't posted IC by tomorrow (Tuesday), I'll alter my plans and have Bardhyl head back to Savonne on the 3rd.

Once he's back in Savonne, Bardhyl will wait for his men to rejoin him so he can get fresh intel on the situation in Shepherd's Valley and the Hills. I'll make fresh plans once I have that intel, but getting back to the Hills to start building up his position probably needs to be done quite soon. I was just hoping that Bardhyl would be going back with some more positive news concerning possible allies...

LeSwordfish also mentioned having Bardhyl and Ludo meet up again, perhaps on the road to Savonne, but if he's still in Savonne when Bardhyl gets there they can run into each other there instead.

RossN

2023-10-17, 04:47 AM

[roll0] vs 64

FP re-roll if needed: [roll1] vs 64

Edit: was needed obviously!

Thragka

2023-10-18, 08:39 AM

Sorry for the silence from me, will update this evening GMT.

rax

2023-10-19, 02:23 PM

Alas, poor Rudi, we hardly knew ye...:smalleek::smallwink:

LCP

2023-10-21, 06:29 AM

Just landed back in the UK.

RossN, Jarla is who the game's waiting on. I don't want to skip ahead without knowing what's happening with Rudi.

rax

2023-10-21, 03:30 PM

Edited my last post to get Bardhyl back to Savonne, assuming nothing much happens along the way...

RossN

2023-10-21, 08:44 PM

Just landed back in the UK.

RossN, Jarla is who the game's waiting on. I don't want to skip ahead without knowing what's happening with Rudi.

Wish I knew what was happening with him. I was convinced he was Irene's assassin.

LeSwordfish

2023-10-22, 02:06 AM

In retrospect I really should have told Jarla what was going on with Rudi, or told Rudi he could trust Jarla, but by the time I realised it was far too late to timesplit back and offer extra advice. Perhaps Ludo thinks Jarla's loyalty to Irene is a bit strong.

LCP

2023-10-22, 06:44 AM

Wish I knew what was happening with him. I was convinced he was Irene's assassin.

That being as it may, can we take this interaction in longer steps? This is the second back-and-forth pair of posts we're having without getting to Jarla actually telling (or asking) Rudi anything.

LeSwordfish

2023-10-26, 02:52 PM

What are we up to after the current set of movements? Are we preparing for a timeskip? I think the next things I have for Ludo are travelling around to work on Painford's food issues.

LCP

2023-10-27, 05:08 AM

I'd like to move things along, yeah. I still want to see how Jarla breaks the news to Irene, though, as that'll impact how she spends that time.

LCP

2023-10-29, 05:29 AM

RossN, can I get a Charm test for Jarla's tall tale? Irene has obvious reasons to suspect an ulterior motive for Rudi.

RossN

2023-10-29, 09:16 AM

Charm: [roll0] vs 64.

FP re-roll if needed: [roll1] vs 64.

LCP any chance Jarla can use her Etiquette bonus (+10%)? I realise she isn't exactly talking about the correct way of using a fish spoon at luncheon but she at least (pretending to be) mad about the help leaving.

LCP

2023-10-30, 08:47 AM

RossN

2023-11-01, 06:30 PM

Yes, I can't think of an NPC that bonus would be more appropriate for. IIRC Etiquette isn't just for matters of etiquette, it's for all interactions with the upper class.

Since Jarla aced the test, I think we can say the imminent IC peril has passed. I'd still like to see how Jarla makes her cover story work over the longer term (i.e. how she deals with Irene's instruction to get Rudi back) but she has some time to work with there. RossN, if you can tell me Jarla's plans for the next few days, I think I can get everyone up to the 8th.

Jarla is going to be damn sure she'll chase every false lead she can, leave every stone unturned and stop at nothing to miss Rudi.

For the next few days she'll be wasting time 'interviewing' the kitchen staff in case there are any 'accomplices' to the wine theft (she'll also be smuggling out a few bottles of wine and emptying them in the river to manufacture evidence that Rudi was in fact stealing wine.)

LeSwordfish

2023-11-05, 10:50 AM

I imagine Ludo will be sent off on one of Sieghard's investigations soon - that's what he's good at, and he can keep up his seditious little chats - but for now I have some things for him to do in Painford.

He's going to suggest that Hieronymous and Rhadegund keep up the schoolhouse. This is also a useful way to keep tabs on the children of the village, and a connection to the families in the surrounding areas - especially keep an eye on any kids that are seeming especially malnourished (so we can give them some extra food) - or that might seem a little well-fed or say something untoward (so we can maybe check their families aren't keeping too much food back).
He's also going to ask Hieronymous to run regular ceremonies - weekly? nightly? - with the express intent of keeping morale strong.
Rudi and Leni are our cooks. Their job is to help us find ways to stretch our food as far as possible, and keep it palatable as long as possible. If we start eating the marrow out of the bones now then we'll have more actual meat left in six months, and even without a proper kitchen, a professional chef should be capable of making that a little more edible.
Gustaf is a poacher - his job is to handpick lets-say-half-a-dozen thorns and get to really properly hunting, as much as we can get without draining the land dry.

Any rolls you want for that? any specifications?

LCP

2023-11-06, 05:20 AM

Don't think there are any rolls I want for that - I don't think any of those people would need much persuading. My only question would be, are you asking Rudi to cook for free?

@Sentinel, Sussman isn't referring to the wreck, he's referring to the fort (which Evatt built in the shape of a ship).

LeSwordfish

2023-11-06, 05:29 AM

My only question would be, are you asking Rudi to cook for free?

I don't know, how much rent is he paying?

(We haven't sorted out exactly where the halflings will be living. My suggestions are either that they stay in Sieghard's spare room, or that Ludo moves in there and Leni and Rudi take his room. Up to Sieghard. Is Hieronymous living in the chapel? But yes, Rudi and Leni need to be working for their keep.)

LCP

2023-11-06, 06:31 AM

Those are good questions. Those NPCs won't have answers for them themselves - they're new in town and don't have much in the way of worldly goods with them (except for Hieronymus' books). I'll be interested to see what your PCs suggest.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-06, 07:12 AM

Up to Sieghard I would imagine. Ludo is happy to move back into the barracks if needed to make room. Alternatively there may be someone with a spare room who could be persuaded to host a priest as an act of charity.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-06, 09:29 AM

@Sentinel, Sussman isn't referring to the wreck, he's referring to the fort (which Evatt built in the shape of a ship).
Ah, sorry. I somehow missed that tidbit until now.

Was Evatt's worship of Manann (in a landlocked setting!) one of those elements that were rolled on the Renegade Crowns tables? Because it seems random enough for that. :smallbiggrin:

LCP

2023-11-06, 11:07 AM

No, one of the participants in the original thread came up with Evatt based off the prompts. RC doesn't randomise princes' religion, just their race, career and personality traits.

TheSummoner

2023-11-06, 10:03 PM

Been a rough week and I've not had much time off, but I'll get some OOC thoughts out until I can get something more solid out.

The meat from the slaughterhouses is probably the most pressing priority. If we don't get it and soon, someone else certainly will. Things have been fairly loose with Sieghard's income since being made steward of Painford, but how much value in either coin or non-food goods could he reasonably have on hand to purchase the meat with.

Also, was Ludo still wanting to look into the manse? That's something Sieghard could reasonably handle alone, but I'm a bit apprehensive about just walking solo into what is at best an insanity trap.

LCP

2023-11-07, 10:58 AM

Things have been fairly loose with Sieghard's income since being made steward of Painford, but how much value in either coin or non-food goods could he reasonably have on hand to purchase the meat with.

My recollection is that both pre- and post-locust, you guys' answer to how much tax you want to collect above and beyond what you need to send to Sforza has been 'as little as possible' (with Sieghard taking some of the materials for his manor as tax, but paying for the skilled labour out of pocket). I don't recall if it got more quantitative than that - it's probably there in the OOC thread if someone fancies going back to check. But my gut instinct is that if we leave out the stuff that's already spoken for (i.e. Sforza's share of the taxes) you don't currently have much more than what's on your character sheets.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-09, 12:00 PM

Thragka, you still with us?

LCP

2023-11-10, 05:36 AM

Thragka

2023-11-10, 06:36 AM

I forget – to whom is Irene referring, with regards to Ludo holding a candle for a human woman? It rings a bell, but particulars escape me.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-10, 07:26 AM

When Ludo and Sieghard's plot to frame Fischwillen came to fruition, the lady who carried our spying message for us was also implicated and hung. Ludo tried to get her off the hook by pleading for Sforza's clemency on the basis that he was in love with her. It didn't work.

It's very funny to me that, despite everything that Ludo's done, and all the interactions he's had with Sforza since, some part of Sforza still probably thinks of Ludo as the wierd little fetishist.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-10, 04:02 PM

Sentinel, what's Elsa's first week of book research going to look like?
As we discussed, she should first research what's within the realm of the possible, and then I'll be able to design a ritual per the Realms of Sorcery sourcebook. Beatrix Fassbender once gave her a grimoire of pyromancy (as part of gathering the trappings necessary for Journeyman Wizard), so if Elsa wants to create a souped-up version of Ruin and Destruction that can get burn straight through the Book of Nagash's magical wards, the grimoire will be her main source of information.

Elsa doesn't have the Ruin and Destruction spell, but I'm prepared to buy it as part of the ritual creation process. Would be weird if she didn't have the non-ritual version of the spell, really.

If the brute force approach hits a wall, we'll have to consider other options, like exiling the Book to another plane of existence (not Tzeentch's!), or cursing it so that it cannot be found or used. Unless we tie such a ritual to the Lore of Fire somehow, this would likely be an area of magic that lies outside Elsa's expertise, but then again, most rituals provided as examples in the books don't have an obvious link with any specific lore.

TheSummoner

2023-11-10, 10:39 PM

I'd like to do the next substantial update in a step of 1 week too, if that suits people. From how things are shaping up in the IC, that's looking like:

Ludo heads to Putbad, via Savonne.
Bardhyl heads to Morr's Seat, via his hideout.
Everyone else stays in place.

Sieghard will be going with Ludo, at least as far as Savonne. Sieghard invested enough initially to be a full partner in Burhan's business and hasn't collected his share in a while. He also re-invested for extra protection on the boats the last time they spoke in person. It's probably the biggest sum of coin we can quickly scrounge up to buy the meat. Also, the shipment is likely to need protection and Ludo's less suited for that than he is negotiating with the Putbad Guilds.

We'll take the Ravenskird road on the way there. Sieghard wants to check in. If we can get what we buy sent downriver, that would be ideal, but if that's not an option at least getting it sent across the river to Arrow Heap is likely to make it much easier to get out of Savonne without trouble.

Edit: While we're away Sieghard wants to send a few men to assess the state of the outlying farmsteads and get a better idea of how they're faring. Probably going to need more direct action there since it's harder to pool resources for those further away from the actual villages.

LCP

2023-11-11, 05:44 AM

As we discussed, she should first research what's within the realm of the possible, and then I'll be able to design a ritual per the Realms of Sorcery sourcebook. Beatrix Fassbender once gave her a grimoire of pyromancy (as part of gathering the trappings necessary for Journeyman Wizard), so if Elsa wants to create a souped-up version of Ruin and Destruction that can get burn straight through the Book of Nagash's magical wards, the grimoire will be her main source of information.

Elsa doesn't have the Ruin and Destruction spell, but I'm prepared to buy it as part of the ritual creation process. Would be weird if she didn't have the non-ritual version of the spell, really.

If the brute force approach hits a wall, we'll have to consider other options, like exiling the Book to another plane of existence (not Tzeentch's!), or cursing it so that it cannot be found or used. Unless we tie such a ritual to the Lore of Fire somehow, this would likely be an area of magic that lies outside Elsa's expertise, but then again, most rituals provided as examples in the books don't have an obvious link with any specific lore.

I'm trying to understand how Elsa is going about her research, rather than what she hopes to achieve. So at this stage she's not touching the Book of Nagash, she's going to be sequestering herself in study of her other books to get a grasp on the theory of how to make a juiced-up Ruin & Destruction - is that correct?

Thragka

2023-11-11, 07:52 AM

To add a little more detail to Urgrim’s week: if the upper levels of the Caerfort tower are accessible and safe, he’ll set up a little watchpost, and spend much of his downtime on lookout duty. Looking west towards the Waste is the priority, as the architecture probably doesn’t lend itself to panoramic views, but Urgrim will also want to regularly take turns looking north to the Mere and south to the Iron Claw hills. East is not a concern.

If the upper levels aren’t accessible and safe, then he’ll lobby the soldiers to at least let him, if not actually help him, work on shoring them up with his masonry skills. They’re on a guard posting in the middle of nowhere so I figure they can be convinced that getting the use of a proper watchtower is a win for everyone.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-11, 12:24 PM

I'm trying to understand how Elsa is going about her research, rather than what she hopes to achieve. So at this stage she's not touching the Book of Nagash, she's going to be sequestering herself in study of her other books to get a grasp on the theory of how to make a juiced-up Ruin & Destruction - is that correct?
Hmm. Elsa definitely should study the enchantments on the Book of Nagash, risky as it is. Wouldn't want to go through the trouble of creating a whole ritual only to discover it's wholly inadequate. She won't use magic on the Book, and though she may open the lid of the box and leaf through the pages of the Book, she won't remove the Book from the box. All of her study sessions with the Book will be brief. This is about watching the clock's gears turn, not dismantling the clock. Let me know if any tests (Magical Sense, AK (Magic), etc.) are required.

Elsa recently acquired (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651753-WFRP-The-Bloody-Crown-XIV&p=25840043&highlight=solkanite#post25840043) the book Lux Tenebris:

Lux Tenebris was quite a different affair - the hand-scribed account of a wandering Solkanite inquisitor, although Elsa suspected it was a copy rather than an original. The austere fanaticism of the author radiated from every word, but in between the denunciations of mutants and mages, she had found time to catalogue the various protective measures she had taken to ward herself from the sorcerers she claimed to have hunted. Elsa remembered the bundle of charms and amulets that Johannes Klammenberg had taken to wearing before his death. Could you hang a charm around a country?
Can any of these protective measures be implemented with the resources at hand? Elsa will commandeer any resources required (within reason). It's likely that many of these measures are just superstition, but her witchsight can likely tell if they're effective.

Elsa will send someone to Mirino to buy 12 gc worth of incense and good quality candles, a common offering to Morr. Every day at dusk, a brief and informal religious service to Morr will be held in the center of the encampment. We don't have a priest to make a sermon or read from a holy text, but attendees will be encouraged to come forward and share fond stories about a deceased relative or friend. I suggest we roleplay it; otherwise, it looks a bit perfunctory, and I don't want an act of devotion to Morr to seem like an afterthought.

LCP

2023-11-11, 04:11 PM

Hmm. Elsa definitely should study the enchantments on the Book of Nagash, risky as it is. Wouldn't want to go through the trouble of creating a whole ritual only to discover it's wholly inadequate. She won't use magic on the Book, and though she may open the lid of the box and leaf through the pages of the Book, she won't remove the Book from the box. All of her study sessions with the Book will be brief. This is about watching the clock's gears turn, not dismantling the clock. Let me know if any tests (Magical Sense, AK (Magic), etc.) are required.

OK - for any interaction with the book, I'd like you to be as precise as possible about what you're doing and when (i.e. which tasks come before and which come after).

I think you've already given me a pretty clear picture here of what you plan to do at this stage, so I just need to ask when in the week this comes - is this the first step of Elsa's research, or is she going to take some days to work up to it? And just to make doubly sure I understand - Elsa's going to physically handle the book by opening it and turning the pages? Is she going to try to read the text on the pages?

She didn't have any specific instructions for Jorge on where to store it - does she want to move it to a specific location/do any work to prepare that location before she starts? I was thinking the natural place for them to have stashed it was Orderic's cellar under the tower.

For 'watching the clock's gear's turn', I think Magical Sense would be appropriate, and AK(Magic) for making sense of what you see.

Elsa recently acquired (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651753-WFRP-The-Bloody-Crown-XIV&p=25840043&highlight=solkanite#post25840043) the book Lux Tenebris:

Can any of these protective measures be implemented with the resources at hand? Elsa will commandeer any resources required (within reason). It's likely that many of these measures are just superstition, but her witchsight can likely tell if they're effective.

One that you can probably do with stuff you can get from your shopping trip to Mirino is a protective circle (core book, p144). The book also talks about the magic-resistant properties of certain materials which might be harder to get hold of - obsidian and rowan wood (which is gonna be rare this far south). There's a lot of the religious aspect too, but I think from the sound of things you're already taking those measures.

Every day at dusk, a brief and informal religious service to Morr will be held in the center of the encampment.

Who's leading it?

-Sentinel-

2023-11-11, 05:17 PM

I just need to ask when in the week this comes - is this the first step of Elsa's research, or is she going to take some days to work up to it?
Probably wise to take a few days to make whatever preparations can be made. Create talismans, prepare a protective circle, meditate, make offerings to Morr, etc.

And just to make doubly sure I understand - Elsa's going to physically handle the book by opening it and turning the pages? Is she going to try to read the text on the pages?
Yes. Although, if she does read a few passages, it's more out of curiosity than anything else. I don't expect the Book to helpfully tell us how to destroy it!

She didn't have any specific instructions for Jorge on where to store it - does she want to move it to a specific location/do any work to prepare that location before she starts? I was thinking the natural place for them to have stashed it was Orderic's cellar under the tower.

One that you can probably do with stuff you can get from your shopping trip to Mirino is a protective circle (core book, p144).
Orderic's cellar sounds good, and now that you mention it, I'll indeed be making a protective circle to prep the location.

Per the rulebook, a protective circle for spellcasting costs an amount of gold equal to the spell's Casting Value and is good for one casting, but Elsa is not actually casting a spell (for now). Can we homebrew something semi-permanent, which provides protection from the Aethyr until you actually tap into it to cast a spell? Harmugstahl had a circle carved into a stone floor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23692599&postcount=114), so clearly a protective circle isn't always just a collection of loose objects. If this requires some advanced know-how in addition to resources, I'll make the necessary rolls.

A protective circle for ritual magic would be in the neighborhood of 25gc, though something more permanent might cost more. Money isn't really an issue for Elsa; while she'd rather not have to pay for the realm's salvation out of her own pockets, those pockets are pretty deep right now.

For 'watching the clock's gear's turn', I think Magical Sense would be appropriate, and AK(Magic) for making sense of what you see.
Magical Sense 93: [roll0] - Could've rolled a lot better, but still 2 degrees of success thanks to Aethyric Attunement and Khalida.
Fortune: [roll1]

Academic Knowledge (Magic) 75: [roll2] - :smallcool:
Fortune: [roll3]

Who's leading it?
Elsa will make a little speech to get the ball rolling, but it's really more of a get-together than a solemn ceremony (she wouldn't want to attract Morr's wrath by assuming roles reserved to priests). Attendance isn't mandatory or anything, but a distribution of wine from Mirino could provide an incentive.

LCP

2023-11-11, 06:20 PM

Per the rulebook, a protective circle for spellcasting costs an amount of gold equal to the spell's Casting Value and is good for one casting, but Elsa is not actually casting a spell (for now). Can we homebrew something semi-permanent, which provides protection from the Aethyr until you actually tap into it to cast a spell?

If you mean something that just gives you passive magic resistance all the while you're standing inside it, I think that might be a bit too strong to whip up on the fly. The models we've got from published stuff are a bit more directed - the protective circle protects the caster from their own spells, and the octagram (from ToC) helps contain the specific daemon you summon and bind inside it.

If you wanted to treat the book like a daemon and put it in wizard jail inside an octagram, that wouldn't be unreasonable. As-written in ToC, an octagram gives +10% to the WP test to control the summoned daemon per degree of success on the (secret) AK(Daemonology) test you make to draw it; you could extrapolate that it might give you similar help in WP tests to resist the influence of the book, if the book acts like a daemon or a spirit. The materials as-written are (a lot) more expensive than for a protective circle at 100 gc x the Magic Characteristic of the summoning ritual you're using, but Elsa could experiment using cheaper stuff/stuff she'd have easier access to in Last Water.

We could look at Elsa making charms and talismans for herself, but making anything with real power would be a time commitment similar to crafting a ritual. Assuming you want something you can put together quickly, I think we'd be talking about mechanically something like the Lucky Charm on p123 of the rulebook. With an investment in materials (I'll say equivalent to the rulebook cost of 15 gc), a week's work and a successful Arcane Language (Magick) test I'd say Elsa could make one that she was fairly confident in, or she could just try to buy whatever trinkets people are selling and check them out with her wizard eyes/hope one of them works.

Otherwise my advice would be, look at ways you have buff yourself specifically against specific kinds of unpleasant things you think the book might do. e.g. if you think it might try to jump-scare you, you could cast Hearts of Fire on yourself before each session with it. If you think it might try to bite you, you could wear thick gloves. But there's not to be a catch-all solution for an unknown magical trap any more than there would be for an unknown physical one - what works against a poison dart doesn't do much against a trapdoor.

One final important disclaimer is that this is research, so while I know I'm asking you to be precise, if I'm being vague here that's deliberate. Elsa doesn't know what's going to happen when she puts these bits of her knowledge together in new combinations, and so I'm not going to tell you either - you have to run the test and see.

Elsa will make a little speech to get the ball rolling, but it's really more of a get-together than a solemn ceremony (she wouldn't want to attract Morr's wrath by assuming roles reserved to priests). Attendance isn't mandatory or anything, but a distribution of wine from Mirino could provide an incentive.

I think that will be a Charm test at -20 to get Jorge's people to muster much enthusiasm for that. Failure doesn't mean they'll refuse, just that they maybe won't be keen.

rax

2023-11-11, 07:00 PM

Using tongs or something similar to turn lethal book pages is also a time-honoured literary practice. Of course, the tongs might immediately rust or rot, depending on what they're made of, but that seems preferable to the same happening to living flesh. :smallamused:

-Sentinel-

2023-11-11, 11:58 PM

If you wanted to treat the book like a daemon and put it in wizard jail inside an octagram, that wouldn't be unreasonable. As-written in ToC, an octagram gives +10% to the WP test to control the summoned daemon per degree of success on the (secret) AK(Daemonology) test you make to draw it; you could extrapolate that it might give you similar help in WP tests to resist the influence of the book, if the book acts like a daemon or a spirit. The materials as-written are (a lot) more expensive than for a protective circle at 100 gc x the Magic Characteristic of the summoning ritual you're using, but Elsa could experiment using cheaper stuff/stuff she'd have easier access to in Last Water.
Oof, yeah, let's try with something cheaper then. Even if I had 300 gc available for a proper containment area (which I assume Nicodemus' sanctum was), I'd rather not sink an enormous amount of resources into a place that we might be forced to leave at the drop of a hat.

Assuming you want something you can put together quickly, I think we'd be talking about mechanically something like the Lucky Charm on p123 of the rulebook. With an investment in materials (I'll say equivalent to the rulebook cost of 15 gc), a week's work and a successful Arcane Language (Magick) test I'd say Elsa could make one that she was fairly confident in, or she could just try to buy whatever trinkets people are selling and check them out with her wizard eyes/hope one of them works.
Mechanically, a Lucky Charm only allows you to re-roll a test (like a Fortune Point, of which I have 4 per day) or ignore a single hit. I would assume a "hit" isn't necessarily limited to a conventional damage roll? Just trying to gauge if this is worth spending a week and 15 gc on.

Or do you mean "like the Lucky Charm" more in terms of magnitude of the effect, or it being a one-use-only thing?

Otherwise my advice would be, look at ways you have buff yourself specifically against specific kinds of unpleasant things you think the book might do. e.g. if you think it might try to jump-scare you, you could cast Hearts of Fire on yourself before each session with it. If you think it might try to bite you, you could wear thick gloves. But there's not to be a catch-all solution for an unknown magical trap any more than there would be for an unknown physical one - what works against a poison dart doesn't do much against a trapdoor.
Makes sense, but so far, the Book's main form of attack has been a rapid aging spell. There isn't much that Elsa's toolkit (both magical and mundane) can do about that.

I'm confident Elsa's WP can withstand most psychology-based attacks. She also already wear gloves. Let's have Olga stand ready on the hinge side of the chest, so that she can slam the lid shut without having to go all the way around the chest if the Book starts acting in an alarming manner.

One final important disclaimer is that this is research, so while I know I'm asking you to be precise, if I'm being vague here that's deliberate. Elsa doesn't know what's going to happen when she puts these bits of her knowledge together in new combinations, and so I'm not going to tell you either - you have to run the test and see.
Totally get it. :smallsmile:

I think that will be a Charm test at -20 to get Jorge's people to muster much enthusiasm for that. Failure doesn't mean they'll refuse, just that they maybe won't be keen.
Alrighty.

Target 29: [roll0]
Fortune Point because why not: [roll1]

Edit: Oh, alright. They're like kids being dragged to mass on Sunday.

TheSummoner

2023-11-12, 02:48 AM

Makes sense, but so far, the Book's main form of attack has been a rapid aging spell. There isn't much that Elsa's toolkit (both magical and mundane) can do about that.

I'm confident Elsa's WP can withstand most psychology-based attacks. She also already wear gloves. Let's have Olga stand ready on the hinge side of the chest, so that she can slam the lid shut without having to go all the way around the chest if the Book starts acting in an alarming manner.

Better a few sets of tongs get aged than Elsa herself. Did Sforza offer anything in terms of resources for this expedition or is Elsa expected to cover her own expenses? Ritual magic isn't exactly cheap.

LCP

2023-11-12, 05:36 AM

Oof, yeah, let's try with something cheaper then. Even if I had 300 gc available for a proper containment area (which I assume Nicodemus' sanctum was), I'd rather not sink an enormous amount of resources into a place that we might be forced to leave at the drop of a hat.

Can you say how much you are looking to spend (and as a roleplaying choice if you want, what kind of materials you're buying)?

I would assume a "hit" isn't necessarily limited to a conventional damage roll?

I would say that's a question of having to find out.

Or do you mean "like the Lucky Charm" more in terms of magnitude of the effect, or it being a one-use-only thing?

Both.

Edit: Oh, alright. They're like kids being dragged to mass on Sunday.

It seems like a safe bet that most of these guys are more religious than Elsa (since she consistently appears to be one of the least religious people in the Reaches) - it's more that they don't feel like she's doing this out of genuine faith.

Re: resources from Sforza, the time to ask for an expenses fund was before leaving Savonne really. You could ask now but it'd take a long time to get a reply. Or you could ask Valdes.

EDIT: Also, a question for you, TheSummoner - can you dig up the agreement you had with Burhan + the date it was made? I could use those details if we're to work out how much you're owed.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-12, 01:14 PM

Can you say how much you are looking to spend (and as a roleplaying choice if you want, what kind of materials you're buying)?
Let's go with ~25 gc, as I said earlier. The priciest material will be flower- and fruit-scented beeswax candles, which Elsa will melt into Nehekharan hieroglyphs associated with life, fertility, the seasonal floodings of Nehekhara's sacred river (now the Mortis river), and protection against evil. A second circle outside the first will be made of rich black earth from the fields around Mirino (which should be literally dirt-cheap), because Elsa suspects Last Water's mysterious fertility is not wholly mundane in nature. Lastly, we'll look for obsidian, though I'm not keeping my hopes up.

Throughout her stay in Caerfort, Elsa will keep a corked bottle of wine just outside the protective circle and regularly take a sip from it. If it's turning to vinegar faster than it should, that means the circle isn't too effective. Let's also keep a bottle of the same vintage far away from the Book, to serve as a control group (and because Elsa really likes wine).

I would say that's a question of having to find out.
Okay. Elsa will look for a talisman with either Morrite associations or life associations, contradictory as it might seem.

The Arcane Language (Magick) isn't a secret test, I take it?

Target 75: [roll0]
Fortune: [roll1]

Edit: Narrow success if I use Fortune for a +10 to the first attempt. Probably not the most effective talisman, but better than nothing.

It seems like a safe bet that most of these guys are more religious than Elsa (since she consistently appears to be one of the least religious people in the Reaches) - it's more that they don't feel like she's doing this out of genuine faith.
Fair! She'll need to give a convincing performance, then. :smallsmile:

Between the 25 gc worth of fine candles for the protective circle, the 15 gc talisman, and the 12 gc worth of candles and incense for the nightly Morrite gatherings, plus let's say 2 gc worth of wine for the first gathering and for testing the circle's effectiveness, this would set Elsa back a whopping 54 gc. :smallfrown: Let's hope she can get some of it reimbursed.

https://i.imgur.com/Qadf91l.jpg

Re: resources from Sforza, the time to ask for an expenses fund was before leaving Savonne really. You could ask now but it'd take a long time to get a reply. Or you could ask Valdes.
Yes, I suppose I could try to commandeer stuff from Mirino. Could we roleplay it? Elsa and Valdes haven't interacted in a long time. (And it's increasingly looking like Elsa's shopping list isn't something she can just entrust to some errand boy.)

With all this, the first attempt to look at the Book should happen at the end of the week.

TheSummoner

2023-11-12, 01:20 PM

I'm having trouble with the exact ingame date of the initial investment (I think most of the discussion on that was OOC), but sometime around mid Ulriczeit (based on IRL posting dates), Sieghard made an initial investment of 400gc for the construction of two new boats in return for a 40% share of those boats profits. On 26th Vorhexen, he collected his first return on investment totaling 356gc. When the two of them met, Burhan mentioned needing guards and Sieghard reinvested 100gc of that cut to help pay for them. Though he needed the other 256gc for manor related expenses, he did express a willingness for future reinvestment. A few quotes relevant to that.

"A hundred then," Sieghard said. "And perhaps more when the next boat comes in. I've a few debts that need to be paid back so I'm afraid I won't be able to spare more until then. When do you think it will be back in port?"

"I think we're expecting a three week turnaround for the next shipment," said Burhan. "But once we get the second boat on the northern stretch, we'll be able to cut that down."

"Alright then," Sieghard said. "If the next boat does as well as the first and my share is another three hundred or more, then take a hundred of that and put it back in as well. Just in case I'm not able to make it back into the city in three weeks, there's no reason to let the coin sit in a chest when we could be using it."

I've been going over my bookkeeping to get everything up to date. Still working on it. Sieghard has been back in the city since then but I don't think there's been any specific detailing with his stake in Burhan's boats (there one mention during a previous visit to the city that if he needed more money for purchases, he could visit to collect, but I don't think that proved necessary and no numbers were given). Partly due to other things going on that were more important from a player perspective and partly because he hasn't needed the money. If it makes more sense to say that he's been collecting in the downtime rather than letting it sit to collect as one big sum, I'm fine with either way. The total's more important than how much was collected when.

rax

2023-11-12, 01:55 PM

@LCP

I have a PM for you, but the forum says your inbox is full. :smallsmile:

LCP

2023-11-12, 05:08 PM

Thanks, I've cleared some space.

RossN

2023-11-13, 10:04 PM

And RossN - there's still a bit of conversation going on IC with Irene, but does Jarla have any independent plans of her own?

Not really. At the moment Jarla is probably best placed getting involved with Irene's plans against Ludo and/or Elsa and mucking them up from the inside.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-16, 03:22 AM

Given the amount of money Sieghard has been making, I'd suggest buying every wagon we can from Burhan, even if that means leaving us a bit limited on cash to spend in Putbad - a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Ludo's not really interacted with the Putbad guilders before so i'm not sure what their deal is. Can someone give me an idiot's guide to what's up in putbad, who these people are, what they want, etc? I am also really only sort of aware what a "guild" is.

LCP

2023-11-16, 06:21 AM

Because of their position on the Falls, the Putbad merchants control the river trade, and have associated into a number of guilds to maintain that monopoly. They're one of the few institutions in the Reaches with some continuity behind them; Eberhard Groz married Leona because she was a guildmaster's daughter. Any goods passing down the river are going to pass through their hands - but they are dependent on outsiders like Neumauer for their supply.

TheSummoner

2023-11-16, 10:52 AM

I am also really only sort of aware what a "guild" is.

You can think of a guild a bit like an archaic form of a monopoly. If a city has a wainwright's guild, then that guild is the only source of new wagons in the area. If it has a cooper's guild, then anyone who wants to make barrels has to join the guild and pay guild dues or they're not allowed to.

Thragka

2023-11-16, 11:48 AM

You can think of a guild a bit like an archaic form of a monopoly. If a city has a wainwright's guild, then that guild is the only source of new wagons in the area. If it has a cooper's guild, then anyone who wants to make barrels has to join the guild and pay guild dues or they're not allowed to.

Just to add, theoretically the payoff for this monopoly is that the guild are effectively an accrediting organisation, and guarantee that their members' work is upheld to a certain standard.

Guilds might also have some hard or soft political power in representing the interests of the burghers as a collective organisation. How much that actually helps their rank-and-file members is variable.

https://i.imgur.com/xkFmcew.png

LeSwordfish

2023-11-17, 12:08 PM

Ahah - so in theory the people Ludo is talking to represent all the business interests in Putbad?

I've a bit lost track of the time. Two dates it would be really useful to be prompted on, please:

The next full moon. Ludo wants both himself and as many thorns as possible back in Painford for then.
The next tax date, now that they're every five weeks.

TheSummoner

2023-11-17, 10:00 PM

LeSwordfish

2023-11-18, 02:04 AM

Re: Thorns. Final count is 38. So a bit shy of that around 50 I said before but still a good number.

20, Hanna among them are in Manaan's Keep.
Rike and an unspecified number are in Ravenskird. Let's say it was 10 initially.
That leaves 8 in Painford.

Ludo wanted Gustaf and a half dozen on serious hunting duty. Given the numbers we have, I'm going to say we reduce that to 5 total, Gustaf among them until we return. To Savonne, We'll take 5 with us from those in Ravenskird.

Are you sure? Have you included the recruitment we did over the summer from the refugees coming through?

If we're only that many we might want to tone down the number who are in Manaan's Keep, I wasn't intending for us to send more than half our forces there.

TheSummoner

2023-11-18, 02:22 AM

You can triple check me if you want, but 17 new recruits was the number I came up with. Conveniently, you outlined it all here

Seperate post for visibility, but I had a quick check through the thread for our new recruits.

4 thorns from the downlands on the 16th Nachexen, one of whom is called Antonio (and is garrulous) and has a daughter Guilia, who is one of them wierd kids and was the only kid to land a hit on Ludo. He's also referenced a Uter and his son Juri.
24th Nachexen, 40 people arrive. Ludo keeps Jozef, an Outdoorsman, and 5 young recruits (3 female) for the Thorns. Urgi keeps the three sick who survive.
32nd Nachexen, another group pass through. Sieghard recruits three for the Thorns - "Alvin, Jori and Lammert. Alvin and Jori clearly knew how to shoot, while Lammert was a big lad, still strong despite an evident lack of good food in recent months."
8th Nachexen, three more Thorns
At some point that I'm not certain about because it's in the OOC: two with experience as caravan guards, and one who knows his numbers, who I am calling Mr Maths Herr Mathis

Looks like 15 thorns (Antonio, Jozef, Alvin, Jori, Lammert, at least three women), one outdoorsman (Jozef), two caravan guards (if we're hiring them as Muscle I say we just make them Thorns), and Mr Maths, plus at least three others (who were named but I forgot to note it down). I'll let TheSummoner and LCP add them to the various NPC registries: I'm definitely interested in building a strong retinue of named locals now that Painford is our patch.

The number of Thorns is now much higher. Would now be a good time to start on that messenger service we were discussing? Could probably set one "squad" to that and keep the others around to train the new folks.

And I wasn't able to find anything more recent than that. I thought we got back up to 50, but wasn't able to find it so I could be misremembering or maybe thinking of an older situation.

LCP

2023-11-18, 05:33 AM

Ahah - so in theory the people Ludo is talking to represent all the business interests in Putbad?

Pretty much - although there are other guild bigwigs who aren't here at Leona's for dinner.

I've a bit lost track of the time. Two dates it would be really useful to be prompted on, please:

The next full moon. Ludo wants both himself and as many thorns as possible back in Painford for then.
The next tax date, now that they're every five weeks.

Mannslieb will next be full in a couple of days, on the 18th. Morrslieb doesn't have a predictable cycle, but waxes full roughly once a month; the last time it was full was the 24th of Sigmarzeit.

The message from Sforza setting the new tax tempo came on the 31st of Sigmarzeit. 40 days from then would be the 4th of Vorgeheim.

TheSummoner

2023-11-18, 09:30 AM

I’m confused - aren’t you speaking to Burhan here?

That was me starting my new post by quoting an old one (to keep my formatting consistent) and forgetting to remove some of the text from the old post. I've fixed it.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-18, 05:44 PM

Mannslieb will next be full in a couple of days, on the 18th. Morrslieb doesn't have a predictable cycle, but waxes full roughly once a month; the last time it was full was the 24th of Sigmarzeit.

The message from Sforza setting the new tax tempo came on the 31st of Sigmarzeit. 40 days from then would be the 4th of Vorgeheim.

And it was Morrslieb being full that matched the wave of madness two months ago, and the locusts in Sigmarzeit, if I'm remembering correctly?

If that's the case, Ludo's plan is to head out of Bunthafen on the 17th/18th, with the goal of being back in Painford fairly sharpish in order to try to be there for the next full Morrslieb. If that's not possible he's left standing orders for everyone to be on high alert for that week or so - if Bad Things are happening on a monthly cycle, we're not getting caught with our pants down for the next one.

If we only have 40ish thorns rather than 50ish, could I request a retcon please? Could we have sent 15 thorns in Hanna's team rather than 20? It wasn't my intention to send off half our soldiers.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-18, 06:13 PM

Getting started on my shiny new skill - how much more Timber can the Thornwood produce? I assume it's still a hefty component of our taxes, but what more can we cut to sell? [roll0] for Local Knowledge: Painford vs 48, re-roll [roll1]

I assume that you'd call me out if Ludo was making any promises that he would know he can't keep. I did a little research and as best I can tell, trees denuded of leaves at this time of year might just about make it through the winter, so we can't be stripping the Thornwood bare, but I imagine we'd need a longer time period or larger group than "a few hundred people over the course of a couple of years" to clear out a whole forest.

Another question that Ludo might know better than me (so asking here before he makes a tit of himself): is there any sense in building the barges in Ravenskird and then taking them upriver empty? Rather than shipping the timber north to a Bunthafen boathouse?

LCP

2023-11-20, 10:54 AM

And it was Morrslieb being full that matched the wave of madness two months ago, and the locusts in Sigmarzeit, if I'm remembering correctly?

Correct.

If we only have 40ish thorns rather than 50ish, could I request a retcon please? Could we have sent 15 thorns in Hanna's team rather than 20? It wasn't my intention to send off half our soldiers.

No problem.

Getting started on my shiny new skill - how much more Timber can the Thornwood produce? I assume it's still a hefty component of our taxes, but what more can we cut to sell? [roll0] for Local Knowledge: Painford vs 48, re-roll [roll1]

You have a ton of raw resources in the Thornwood (much more than you are likely to deplete in the PCs' lifetime, though you may end up clearing out the area directly around Painford), but limited capacity to fell and transport it. Right now you have a lot of the Painford population at work on gathering or preserving food, and a lot of your existing timber production committed as taxes. If we assume that's roughly in balance, then how much more you can produce will come down to how many people you're willing to take off other jobs to cut this timber and transport it to wherever you make the handover.

I think 1 lumberjack (and I'm assuming here that your new lumberjacks are just people who can swing an axe, not lifelong skilled workers) can probably fill up 1 wagon's worth of timber in 1 week, which then needs 1 wagon driver to make the trip (plus any guards you want to assign). If you assume the point of trade is Savonne then I think you're looking at 2 people being able to produce and drop off 1 wagonload in 2 weeks. I'll be interested to know how many people you wind up committing here, and who - people not in your direct employ may object to being tasked with hard physical labour/long-distance travel!

With lumber being not very weight- or space- efficient as a trade good, and with the supply/demand situation for food being what it is, I think the starting point for negotiations might be something around 1 wagonload of grain for 4-5 wagonloads of timber. Both Maximilian and Uto will be interested in making a deal here. You can haggle separately with each of them, but they'll both insist on exclusivity, so you can only strike a final deal with one of them.

Neumauer isn't interested in timber, but will negotiate a 1-off payment in kind as a reward for eliminating the wreckers, to be paid after proof they've been dealt with is presented. His starting point would be half a bargeload (i.e. 10 wagons); again, you can haggle.

You can handle all this off-screen, or roleplay it if you have specific questions/offers to put to these guys.

Another question that Ludo might know better than me (so asking here before he makes a tit of himself): is there any sense in building the barges in Ravenskird and then taking them upriver empty? Rather than shipping the timber north to a Bunthafen boathouse?

The issue right now is that any large or heavily-laden boat is going to ground itself on the shallows at Arrow Heap. If you could convince the boatwrights that it was a good idea to build boats in Ravenskird and hold them there until the river rises again (or sell them to someone who's willing to do that), this could work - but that's a big ask. Bearing in mind as well that the skilled workers who build these boats are well-settled in Putbad.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-20, 11:09 AM

You have a ton of raw resources in the Thornwood (much more than you are likely to deplete in the PCs' lifetime, though you may end up clearing out the area directly around Painford), but limited capacity to fell and transport it. Right now you have a lot of the Painford population at work on gathering or preserving food, and a lot of your existing timber production committed as taxes. If we assume that's roughly in balance, then how much more you can produce will come down to how many people you're willing to take off other jobs to cut this timber and transport it to wherever you make the handover.

I think 1 lumberjack (and I'm assuming here that your new lumberjacks are just people who can swing an axe, not lifelong skilled workers) can probably fill up 1 wagon's worth of timber in 1 week, which then needs 1 wagon driver to make the trip (plus any guards you want to assign). If you assume the point of trade is Savonne then I think you're looking at 2 people being able to produce and drop off 1 wagonload in 2 weeks. I'll be interested to know how many people you wind up committing here, and who - people not in your direct employ may object to being tasked with hard physical labour/long-distance travel!

Alright, worth thinking about - @TheSummoner, would be good to get your opinions. Might be more valuable in the slightly longer term as we start to exhaust the food that can be gathered, but also presumably as everyone in the reaches starts to run out of food, the price of external food will rise? Or is that theoretically covered by Sforza's rules on the price of grain, assuming those last and are followed?

With lumber being not very weight- or space- efficient as a trade good, and with the supply/demand situation for food being what it is, I think the starting point for negotiations might be something around 1 wagonload of grain for 4-5 wagonloads of timber. Both Maximilian and Uto will be interested in making a deal here. You can haggle separately with each of them, but they'll both insist on exclusivity, so you can only strike a final deal with one of them.

How much would a wagonload of grain move the famine tracker? I assume it's not as efficient as Linde's meats. How many people could I take off Gathering duties before that starts to affect the famine tracker? (On the assumption that we're paying our taxes first.)

The issue right now is that any large or heavily-laden boat is going to ground itself on the shallows at Arrow Heap. If you could convince the boatwrights that it was a good idea to build boats in Ravenskird and hold them there until the river rises again (or sell them to someone who's willing to do that), this could work - but that's a big ask. Bearing in mind as well that the skilled workers who build these boats are well-settled in Putbad.

Ah I see! I wasn't sure if an empty barge could make it over the shallows, or if bargemaking was skilled work or not. Ludo will not bring this idea up, then.

LCP

2023-11-20, 11:25 AM

Alright, worth thinking about - @TheSummoner, would be good to get your opinions. Might be more valuable in the slightly longer term as we start to exhaust the food that can be gathered, but also presumably as everyone in the reaches starts to run out of food, the price of external food will rise? Or is that theoretically covered by Sforza's rules on the price of grain, assuming those last and are followed?

Sforza's price controls only apply in Savonne. Foreign merchants are getting much higher prices for their imports - and yes, you can expect that price to keep rising as local supply keeps dwindling.

How much would a wagonload of grain move the famine tracker? I assume it's not as efficient as Linde's meats. How many people could I take off Gathering duties before that starts to affect the famine tracker? (On the assumption that we're paying our taxes first.)

Grain's a good staple food, I think it would be just as efficient as meat (and I CBA to track this famine stuff down to the level of calorie density, at least not until you start trying to feed people grass). 2 wagons = 1 week's stores.

I think in terms of people you have to hand, you could probably spare about 15 working-age people before it moved the tracker; maybe more if you could recruit people from outside Ravenskird and Painford (and you have some experience here in recruiting for the Thorns). However, everything I said before about Thornwood people having their own lives and professions goes double here - you're not asking them to contribute some daily subsistence activities, you're asking them to take on a new, taxing, full-time job. How you recruit them and how you compensate them will matter!

LeSwordfish

2023-11-20, 11:53 AM

Sforza's price controls only apply in Savonne. Foreign merchants are getting much higher prices for their imports - and yes, you can expect that price to keep rising as local supply keeps dwindling.

Ah, is that why the various guilders are so keen for the controls to be lifted? Because they're buying at uncapped prices and selling at capped prices?

Grain's a good staple food, I think it would be just as efficient as meat (and I CBA to track this famine stuff down to the level of calorie density, at least not until you start trying to feed people grass). 2 wagons = 1 week's stores.

These various numbers make it sound like it's worth doing, then - should be possible to get a week's worth of stores each month for a relatively cheap price, if we're paying salaries rather than buying wagons?

LCP

2023-11-20, 12:14 PM

Ah, is that why the various guilders are so keen for the controls to be lifted? Because they're buying at uncapped prices and selling at capped prices?

Kinda, yeah. The chain here is pretty complicated and maybe some deals are happening out of sight that shouldn't be, but roughly speaking it looks like:

You are an outsider like Neumauer -> you can make an agreement with Sforza to sell your grain at whatever price you want -> $$$
You are a farmer in the Reaches -> there is only 1 big market where you can transport your grain yourself -> if you sell your goods there for a price higher than Sforza's ceiling you will get thrown in the stocks -> :(

(I think I mis-remembered actually, and the edict applies across the Reaches, and not just in Savonne - but Savonne is where it's being enforced at a practical level. Alvarran too, if you think about the density of Iron Company men on garrison duty. The point is that it works on people who don't have a wide choice of where they take their goods to market, and not on those who do.)

These various numbers make it sound like it's worth doing, then - should be possible to get a week's worth of stores each month for a relatively cheap price, if we're paying salaries rather than buying wagons?

The availability of wagons is also a relevant question. If I read correctly, the Thorns have got 1 wagon, which you've been getting a lot of use out of. There will be civilians with wagons in Ravenskird and Painford that you could hire, buy or commandeer, and there is probably also at least 1 wainwright who could build more for you (you have most of the materials readily available). But you'll need to get that extra capacity in place.

TheSummoner

2023-11-20, 01:00 PM

Sorry for the limited posting lately. I've been pretty deep in Grandfather Nurgle's embrace.

Alright, worth thinking about - @TheSummoner, would be good to get your opinions. Might be more valuable in the slightly longer term as we start to exhaust the food that can be gathered, but also presumably as everyone in the reaches starts to run out of food, the price of external food will rise? Or is that theoretically covered by Sforza's rules on the price of grain, assuming those last and are followed?

I think it's an option worth looking into. Anyone physically fit can handle the woodcutting part and I see it as work we could spread out among those further from Painford and Ravenskird in return for us being able to supply them with food they probably wouldn't have access to otherwise. They might not be fond of the hard physical labor, but they're certainly less fond of starving.

As for Sforza's price rules, those only apply to the extent that people fear he can enforce them.

LCP

2023-11-21, 05:59 AM

Sorry to hear you're under the weather, TheSummoner.

Realised I forgot to put a conclusion to Elsa's conversation with Valdes - Sentinel, he's not refusing to cover Elsa's expenses, he's just pointing out that if he pays, he'll claim it back from Sforza just like Elsa would, so he doesn't quite understand why Elsa is making him a middle-man. He'll cover it if she insists (he's too polite to refuse + she rolled a decent Charm test), he just wants her to do the explaining of the expense to Al-Makir.

Also, something else that's got lost in the churn - I didn't see an answer to how Hieronymus and Rudi+Leni are being accommodated in Painford.

I'd like to do another ~week long update soon, but I think there are a few short-term things that need to settle first before I can ask every PC to make short-term plans (e.g. Bardhyl getting the lie of the land in Morr's Seat, Sieghard getting back to Painford, Ludo concluding his negotiations). For those who are already in a stable-ish position I'd ask:
What's Elsa's initial research plan now she's had a preliminary poke at the book?
What's Jarla's itinerary looking like (i.e. how many days in each place)? If it's helpful, I think Ludo will be getting back to Painford around the 23rd.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-21, 09:55 AM

Realised I forgot to put a conclusion to Elsa's conversation with Valdes - Sentinel, he's not refusing to cover Elsa's expenses, he's just pointing out that if he pays, he'll claim it back from Sforza just like Elsa would, so he doesn't quite understand why Elsa is making him a middle-man. He'll cover it if she insists (he's too polite to refuse + she rolled a decent Charm test), he just wants her to do the explaining of the expense to Al-Makir.
Got it. I edited Elsa's last interaction with Valdes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910024&postcount=984).

What's Elsa's initial research plan now she's had a preliminary poke at the book?
It would help to know what this preliminary poke (with the AK (Magic) test that Elsa aced (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25905351&postcount=867)) has uncovered that we didn't already know.

Are there, at least, options that we can confidently cross out?

LCP

2023-11-21, 10:16 AM

The results of that test are what's in the IC post that followed it. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25908066&postcount=975)

LCP

2023-11-22, 11:53 AM

To be clear, we're not yet at the ritual design phase?

That's for you to decide! If you want Elsa to go full steam ahead developing a ritual for her 'magic blowtorch' approach, we can get cracking on ritual creation; if you want to do tests and gather more information first, we can do that too.

Unrelated, I'm not clear on why Elsa is rolling Charm again when you already rolled (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25905524&postcount=870). Unless I've misunderstood, the results of the first test stand.

Thragka

2023-11-22, 12:02 PM

I'm going to be busy for the next few days with my Ph.D. graduation and associated familial hosting and celebrations, so please feel free to autopilot Urgrim until the beginning of next week – real-time, I mean, though I guess that works in-game too! He'll be on lookout duty, but can be called on for scouting or manual labour should Elsa require it.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-22, 12:23 PM

Unrelated, I'm not clear on why Elsa is rolling Charm again when you already rolled (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25905524&postcount=870). Unless I've misunderstood, the results of the first test stand.
Oh, sorry. I thought the first test was only for getting people to come, not for performing the ceremony itself.

Guess Elsa is giving an awkward performance. Hopefully, Morr doesn't mind too much.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-22, 02:41 PM

I now realize that my earlier Charm test (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25905524&postcount=870) was rolled without including Elsa's +10 skill mastery. That means she fails by less than 10, and can therefore pass the test by spending a Fortune Point (which I will do).

Another thing. How much does Elsa pay for a lucky charm (base price 15 gc) with her narrowly successful Haggle test (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25908984&postcount=977)? As I said IC, I'm not passing this expenditure on to Valdes.

Give me a few days for ritual design.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-22, 06:06 PM

I am feeling a bit creatively drained right now (it's been a heck of a week) so I hope you don't mind if I close off Ludo's trip to bunthafen by throwing some dice at things.

Groz and Lena
My intention for this scene was to plant some light anti-sforza sentiment with these two in the same way as for Jan Norten back in Savonne, but probably lighter (they're a bit sharper than Norten). I think that probably seems a bit more like "us little folk (connotation: socioeconomic class) have got to stick together" and "painford and it's resources remain at your services" and the same "for gods sake don't start shooting crowds even if they tell you to" speech he gave to Hanna and Norten. Can I throw out a Charm test to try to sneak these ideas through? Or at least to leave them thinking "Ludo is great, we should trust him over the prince"? [roll0] vs 92

EDIT: Hot damn, great roll.

The Guilders
Ludo is going to roll gossip to identify if there's anyone else in town that might be interested in what the Thornwood has to offer. Is there a furriers guild? Or someone else who'd buy timber? [roll1] vs 72

Ludo is going to roll Haggle (+10 for Dealmaker) against each of Maximilian and Uto. I don't know if you want to care particularly about which order he does these in or how he tries to use each man to get a better price out of the other?
[roll2] vs 82, vs [roll3] for Maximilian
[roll4] vs 82, vs [roll5] for Uto

Will re-roll either with less than 3DOS - [roll6][roll7]

I'll also roll Haggle against Neumauer: [roll8] vs 82, vs [roll9] for Neumauer, same possible re-roll: [roll10]

EDIT: Looks like 8DOS vs Maximilian, who probably also passed pretty well, and five vs Ugo, who probably got a less good roll, and probably losing to Neumauer with only 3DOS

Back In Painford
My suggestion for housing the halflings and Hieronymous is that the halflings stay in Sieghard's house and Hieronymous takes Ludo's rooms - Ludo will return to the barracks. Sieghard can object if he wants but I think that would probably just leave Hieronymous in the chapel.

I'll think a bit more about how we actually get and start moving the timber, but I figure we can probably start with asking for volunteers and paying them, and the same for wagons. We can/should use the Thorns as drivers/guards. I think Ludo doing a big speech to perk everyone up would be fun, i'll try and write that up at some point, perhaps after the next timeskip.

If Ludo is back in town before the likely next Morrslieb Moon, he wants everyone on their toes and in town for the nights until whatever horrible thing happens.

LCP

2023-11-23, 06:45 AM

Krucke will give Elsa 10% off.

I'll do opposed rolls for the guilders + Neumauer, since these may be recurring characters:

[roll0] - 1 DOS
[roll1] - 1 DOS
[roll2] - 2 DOS

So with those results, Maximilian is offering Ludo the best deal on timber for grain; he'll do 2 wagons of grain for every 5 wagons of timber, while the best ratio Uto can offer is 1:4. Neumauer will raise his bounty to 12 wagons of grain, but won't shift on it being paid after the wreckers are dealt with.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-23, 07:04 AM

Krucke will give Elsa 10% off.

I'll do opposed rolls for the guilders + Neumauer, since these may be recurring characters:

- 1 DOS
[roll1] - 1 DOS
[roll2] - 2 DOS

So with those results, Maximilian is offering Ludo the best deal on timber for grain; he'll do 2 wagons of grain for every 5 wagons of timber, while the best ratio Uto can offer is 1:4. Neumauer will raise his bounty to 12 wagons of grain, but won't shift on it being paid after the wreckers are dealt with.

I rolled already for the guilders (though very happy to use your rolls, since Maximilian also aced his roll in my post).

What evidence would Neumauer be looking for that the wreckers are dealt with? Big bag of heads, like the attack on Painford? I assume just promising that there won't be any more attacks won't be enough.

I also forgot to roll for this: [roll1d100 - Gossip vs 72, is there any more information about the Wreckers available? Does anyone have any idea who or where they are? Where do they usually attack?

LeSwordfish

2023-11-23, 07:05 AM

little uh-oh on the roll there, a little whoopsie [roll0]

LCP

2023-11-23, 07:24 AM

Ah, sorry! I skim-read the rolls and thought those were FP rerolls. Should have seen the 'vs'. I was confused why you were talking about who'd probably won or lost!

So with the original rolls that's:

Maximilian - 5 DOS
Uto - 2 DOS
Neumauer - 4 DOS

Based off that, I think Maximilian and Uto will both offer Ludo 1:3 wheat:lumber, and Neumauer will stick on 10 wagons' bounty. For proof, he's flexible - he doesn't want heads to stick on pikes to make a point, he just wants confidence that the attacks will stop. So whatever you can produce that's convincing. A tour of their cleared-out hideout, or identifiable recovered goods would probably be more convincing than just a bag of body bits (which you could have chopped off anyone - he doesn't know what the Ghost looks like).

For the first gossip roll (about other buyers), Putbad has 7 guilds:
The Boatmen and Boatwrights
The Carpenters
The Coopers
The Fishmongers
The Mercers (general merchant traders)
The Porters
The Weavers and Sailmakers
The Carpenters might also be interested in a timber supply deal (although Uto and Maximilian will downplay the likelihood of that). For the out-of-town traders, they are generally interested in goods with a high value-to-weight ratio. If you can think of anything you could produce in the Thornwood that would fit that bill, there might be some interested buyers.

For the 2nd gossip roll, Ludo learns that it's been quiet recently - no attacks since the disappearance of the Gudgeon, approx. 1 month ago. The attacks have generally occurred in the section of the river called the Knives (named for the semi-submerged rocks that narrow the navigable channel there).

LeSwordfish

2023-11-23, 08:30 AM

Based off that, I think Maximilian and Uto will both offer Ludo 1:3 wheat:lumber

How long are these prices going to be fixed for? (Could I use a fixed price as a tiebreaker between the two?) Will Ludo need to make a pledge for how many wagons a week or is it okay to basically be like "whatever turns up, week on week"?

I'm not sure how appropriate it is in these negotiations to come back and go "nope, couldn't get a better deal, guess i'll go with you" but Ludo might as well also drop in on the Carpenter's guild and throw an opposed roll at them too: [roll0] vs 82 for Ludo, vs [roll1] for them.

LCP

2023-11-23, 09:10 AM

How long are these prices going to be fixed for? (Could I use a fixed price as a tiebreaker between the two?) Will Ludo need to make a pledge for how many wagons a week or is it okay to basically be like "whatever turns up, week on week"?

Good question. I think from their perspective, the price of grain is probably likely to change faster than your supply of timber, so they wouldn't want to be locking themselves into anything too long-term.

Uto will trade whatever you can provide from now through to the end of Nachgeheim. Maximilian wants you to pledge an amount of timber you can provide in that same time, so he can buy the commensurate amount of grain at today's prices, but is open to making part of the grain payment up-front (since you beat him by 3 DOS, let's say 30%).

Neither of them want to make agreements that go into Erntzeit, since that's harvest season => they'll know better then how the price of grain looks likely to change.

I'm not sure how appropriate it is in these negotiations to come back and go "nope, couldn't get a better deal, guess i'll go with you" but Ludo might as well also drop in on the Carpenter's guild and throw an opposed roll at them too: [roll0] vs 82 for Ludo, vs [roll1] for them.

The carpenters will offer Ludo 2:5, but Ludo gets the sense that they might have less purchasing power than the other two - they don't want more than 5 wagons a month. Like the others, they'll want to reassess come Erntzeit.

With his info-gathering and bartering, I'm thinking this will occupy a lot of the 17th for Ludo.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-23, 09:54 AM

Yes, I think so. Let's go with Uto - I want to avoid getting locked into specific pledges at this time, in case we're unable to get our logistics up and running yet.

If that's all squared away, I'm happy for Ludo to leave the morning of the 18th.

Also for my own notes: 1 week's food stores = 2 wagons food = 6 wagons timber = 6 people's worth of work for a week (plus caravan guards, maybe 9 total).

I think for the moment we'd ideally be looking to use three thorns as guards and hire enough drivers/lumberers to be able to bring in two wagon's worth of food a week. That seems wild right now but the same assumptions as before still stand I think: the numbers are going to get significantly worse before this is all over. Maybe we even go up to 12 people/6 thorns and bring in two weeks of stores every week?

-Sentinel-

2023-11-24, 01:44 PM

Elsa’s tribute to Adelbert, and Urgrim’s to Thrunrik, didn’t bring forth any volunteers from among the soldiers to share their own stories. Jorge just looked back at her - and, as the uncomfortable silence stretched longer, uttered a benediction to Morr.
But I did narrowly pass the test after all... :smallfrown: Or did I choose her words poorly? It's entirely possible that my IRL social awkwardness shows in my roleplay.

Ah well, Elsa still has some more social advances to buy. I made her a Border Courtier for a reason.

I take it the scene with Esteban is over?

I'll buy the following advances:
Arcane Language (Magick) +10%, a prerequisite for ritual creation. 200xp, because Elsa is no longer in a wizard career.
Extra Spell (Ruin and Destruction), since my ritual will be based on this. 100xp, because extra spells remain available to anyone with the lore, even if they switch to another career.

LCP

2023-11-24, 01:59 PM

But I did narrowly pass the test after all...

They're all present; no-one's taking things the wrong way or trying to skive off. Elsa said they're there to honour Morr, so they offer a prayer to Morr. She doesn't tell them that they have to do it her way, so they don't. That's what a marginal success looks like.

These guys (like the rest of the Old World) believe in Morr and his cult. They believe in the priests and the rituals. They're worshipping Morr the way they know how, treating him like a concrete being worthy of worship, and offering their worship in the ritual form that his priests have taught them. Elsa's treating Morr more like a metaphor for death, and mostly reminiscing about her dead friend rather than making any direct appeal or offering to Morr himself.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-24, 02:23 PM

These guys (like the rest of the Old World) believe in Morr and his cult. They believe in the priests and the rituals. They're worshipping Morr the way they know how, treating him like a concrete being worthy of worship, and offering their worship in the ritual form that his priests have taught them. Elsa's treating Morr more like a metaphor for death, and mostly reminiscing about her dead friend rather than making any direct appeal or offering to Morr himself.
Oh, I see. Thanks. I'll take that into consideration for future ceremonies.

Do most of the Estalians speak Tilean? Because it's noted that some of them aren't too fluent in Reikspiel.

I suppose I should give Olga and Tattie something to do before they die of boredom, as we're going to be here a while. Does Olga know how to ride a horse? If not, this is the perfect opportunity for Tattie to teach her. (With Olga riding Tattie's horse, because Bastard is not a horse for a beginner.)

LCP

2023-11-24, 02:50 PM

Yeah, I think their Tilean is likely to be decent.

You can do what you want with Olga and Tattie, but I'd ask that you handle it yourself - with the group split the way it is, the last long update took me several days to write. I don't have the bandwidth to cover every character at all times.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-26, 03:02 PM

On second thought, I'll go instead for a ritual to sever the Book's connection to the Aethyr (let's call it Holt's Grand Ritual of Aethyric Unbinding), as it's just more interesting than a souped-up destruction spell.

I'll be posting the first phase of the Ideal (Arcane language, Description, Description, Consequences, Ingredients and Conditions) later today.

rax

2023-11-26, 03:21 PM

Just a thought concerning rituals and such, but in case we actually want to draw Nahorek out so that we can confront him (assuming the ritual vs. the book works and that this alone isn't enough to finish him), perhaps it would be possible devise a ritual to summon him into our presence? A sort of Summons of Evil, so that we may smite him! :smallsmile:

-Sentinel-

2023-11-26, 03:27 PM

LeSwordfish

2023-11-26, 03:39 PM

Do we have any particular idea what he is now? Or are we just basing that on how difficult reviving him would be?

If a vampire with extreme powers like those Nahorek has, sires another vampire, do they inherit those powers? (I.e. could some of these mega-curses come from Vampire Mala instead?)

rax

2023-11-26, 04:11 PM

As far as we're aware, Nahorek is currently a disembodied spirit.

If we call him, he'll just send his minions. That seems a rather strange assumption to make. It seems to me that summoning disembodied spirits is standard fantasy fare. Even Warhammer daemons are only temporarily embodied when they’re pulled from the Realms of Chaos. Besides, the whole point of creating rituals is to create bespoke effects. Why should ”bring Nahorek into our presence” be impossible?

-Sentinel-

2023-11-26, 04:32 PM

That seems a rather strange assumption to make. It seems to me that summoning disembodied spirits is standard fantasy fare. Even Warhammer daemons are only temporarily embodied when they’re pulled from the Realms of Chaos. Besides, the whole point of creating rituals is to create bespoke effects. Why should ”bring Nahorek into our presence” be impossible?
We'll look pretty dumb if it turns out the spear can't kill Nahorek's spirit, only his body.

I'd rather focus on destroying the Book, because a lot of the harm that's been done to the Reaches through the Book wasn't even Nahorek's doing. We should be ready for Nahorek to show up during the casting, but I'd rather not invite him.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-26, 05:26 PM

After all, I won't post my first draft of the spell tonight. I'm still looking for ideas for a third ritual ingredient, in addition to "a pair of scissors with obsidian blades" and "a circle made of ten pounds of salt from a sea that no longer exists". @ everyone, let me know if you have other ideas tied to anti-magic or the severing of threads or links.

rax

2023-11-26, 05:50 PM

I'd rather focus on destroying the Book... Yes, of course. As noted in my original post, the idea I'm floating is in case it turns out that destroying the book is insufficient to end Nahorek. It can also be an alternative if the ritual vs. the book fails and we absolutely need a Hail Mary attempt to get Nahorek some place we can confront that isn't the Red Pyramid, since that's sort of his stronghold.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-27, 08:02 PM

What Elsa can remember from her College education/what her books indicate is that magic items retain magic either because their creators bind magic into them through their design (what von Lodern talks about), or through steeping in ambient magic so long that they absorb it. If the book is in the former category then ‘can you burn the magic away’ would be essentially the same question as ‘can you burn the pages away’ - just a contest of which magic is stronger.
I see. So destroying the Book relies on the assumption that, as with all physical objects, it generally takes less effort to destroy things than to make them. (Also worth noting that Nagash wrote those books fairly early in his "career", long before he reached the apex of his power, though it's doubtful that Elsa knows that.)

I don’t think we need any tests for this background knowledge. Finding out new stuff, that’ll be the subject of the research rolls - but we should resolve those over longer timescales than single days.
Okay. Need some more time to think; my brain is a bit mushy today.

“Not ‘appy?” cackled his drinking companion. “They're about to be a lot less ‘appy! I saw those soldier boys marching out. They ‘ad them ogres with ‘em.” Leaning over the bar, he tried to flag down the barman for another drink. “That’s the problem with those lads from the Heap. Ever since they bloodied King Pieter’s nose they think there’s no lord nor lady can tell ‘em what to do.”

“Mm-hm,” said his friend, nodding. “Wouldn’t like to be in their shoes now, that's for sure.”
I hope Viggo, his wife and his baby will be okay. :smalleek:

LCP

2023-11-28, 07:05 AM

IIRC, Viggo ran away to avoid a shotgun blunderbuss wedding in Arrow Heap, not to go settle down there.

I'm sure Brunhilde will be fine <.<

Re: ritual ingredients, I would say it's a good idea to think about what Elsa can actually get her hands on. I don't know where you'd start looking for salt from a sea that no longer exists. I also think if you want suggestions, it might be worth letting folks see your rough draft.

Re: Vampire Mala, I think Ludo's AK(Necromancy) is enough for him to know that new vampires generally grow into their powers over time, so it would be surprising if a newly vampirised Mala could immediately replicate Nahorek's most powerful party tricks.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-28, 09:12 AM

IIRC, Viggo ran away to avoid a shotgun blunderbuss wedding in Arrow Heap, not to go settle down there.
Ah, thanks.

Re: ritual ingredients, I would say it's a good idea to think about what Elsa can actually get her hands on. I don't know where you'd start looking for salt from a sea that no longer exists. I also think if you want suggestions, it might be worth letting folks see your rough draft.
I was under the impression there were some salt flats in the area, now I realize I was likely mistaken. The Pale Waste is sand dunes.

And yeah, I'm working on my draft.

TheSummoner

2023-11-28, 02:55 PM

About what time of day is it for Sieghard?

I'm thinking the only chance of preventing a slaughter is for him to get to Manaan's Keep before the Iron Company arrives and I'm weighing that against trying to see if the messenger has already passed through. Would setting out right away get him there a day earlier or no?

LCP

2023-11-28, 03:46 PM

I'm not sure I follow the question - Sieghard is 3 days' travel closer to Manann's Keep than the Iron Company in Savonne. The messenger would need a 6 day head start on Sieghard for the Iron Company to beat Sieghard there (and you'd see them coming through Painford en route).

It's mid afternoon, though.

rax

2023-11-28, 04:25 PM

@LCP

“For the patrols… as far as I’ve been able to tell, there are always ten men on watch. One up on the wall, nine down in the streets. The sergeant stays up at the hall, and I’ve never seen less than ten men on duty there with him too. So twenty armed men ready to come running… if we move in daylight.” That was clearly supposed to be a significant ‘if’. “After the sun goes down, it's just two men on the gate, and two outside the hall.” This seems like good time to compare notes/assumptions. :smallsmile:

I considered doing this at night, but I assumed that at night the Iron Company would be safely locked up inside the hall, and that the hall is pretty secure. E.g. its doors are barred from the inside, so it's not the kind of place where we could pick a lock sneak in. I also assumed there aren't really any windows. If that's the case, then Bardhyl would need an inside man to open the doors and let his men in to catch Orso & co napping. But maybe I'm exaggerating the difficulty of opening the hall from the outside?

Attacking during the daytime would ideally have the advantage that a third of the garrison is taken out before the rest know anything about it. When the rest come to put down Bardhyl's manufactured disturbance, the idea would be to trap them in a narrow street, e.g. by closing off either end with a wagon. We'd need enough men armed for hand-to-hand to keep them from moving the wagons, and in the meantime there'd be people pelting them with arrows and rocks from the roofs, windows and the wagons. If Pyrrhus of Epirus could be killed by a thrown roof tile, I figured the Iron Company would be susceptible to the same sort of tactics. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, there's some other options as well. Maybe Wadim could scrounge up some interesting mushrooms or something so that the ladies doing the cooking can spike the garrison's meals. Either we take out the whole garrison that way, or debilitate some or all of them so that it's easier to take them down. Do any of the ladies stay the night? That would give us our inside man right there.

LCP

2023-11-28, 04:41 PM

I considered doing this at night, but I assumed that at night the Iron Company would be safely locked up inside the hall, and that the hall is pretty secure. E.g. its doors are barred from the inside, so it's not the kind of place where we could pick a lock sneak in. I also assumed there aren't really any windows. If that's the case, then Bardhyl would need an inside man to open the doors and let his men in to catch Orso & co napping. But maybe I'm exaggerating the difficulty of opening the hall from the outside?

The chief's hall is not designed like a fortress or a prison; it's a wooden longhouse where the chief would hold court. Picture a discount version of Theoden's place in Edoras.

The doors could be barred if Orso wanted to; it depends how paranoid he's feeling (remembering that barring himself in means a significant delay in being able to get outside if he's needed). The only way to know for sure would be to go up and give them a push.

Of course, there's some other options as well. Maybe Wadim could scrounge up some interesting mushrooms or something so that the ladies doing the cooking can spike the garrison's meals. Either we take out the whole garrison that way, or debilitate some or all of them so that it's easier to take them down. Do any of the ladies stay the night? That would give us our inside man right there.

That would be an IC question - these are people working closely with the soldiers, so you ought to assume broaching the subject with them carries an element of risk. Seems likely though.

Do bear in mind that if you're talking about a barred gate, one person would not be able to open that quickly or quietly.

RossN

2023-11-28, 09:04 PM

Apologies for disappearing. Very peculiar week but nothing too bad. Trying to catch up!

I think Jarla will make pretty much straight for Painford with minimal stops enroute to rest, though she'll overnight in Ravenskird and if she gets to Painford before Ludo she'll wait there.

rax

2023-11-29, 03:24 PM

The chief's hall is not designed like a fortress or a prison; it's a wooden longhouse where the chief would hold court. Picture a discount version of Theoden's place in Edoras. Then I think we're on roughly the same page. I was thinking of a deluxe Viking longhouse. That would entail one, maybe two, entrances, no windows, and a hole to let out the smoke. Would the same apply here, just on a larger scale? And is the roof tiled or thatched?

-Sentinel-

2023-11-29, 10:06 PM

Oh hey, [censored because of forum's ban on politics]! Thought I'd never see the day. :smallbiggrin:

https://media.tenor.com/29NdP5cqv8wAAAAd/crab-dancing.gif

Here's a first draft of my proposed spell. I need some ideas for two more thematically appropriate ingredients that would be hard to procure but wouldn't require us to venture outside the Reaches. Bonus points if they involve some questing, and not just paying people a pile of gold to make or find stuff for us.

Also would be great if it included some way to at least partly suppress or exhaust the Book's magic during the casting, because casting a ritual typically takes hours and I don't know how many WP tests vs. rapid aging Elsa can take.

Holt’s Grand Ritual of Aethyric Unbinding

Type: Arcane
Arcane Language: Magick
Ingredients: A master-crafted pair of scissors with obsidian blades,
Conditions: The caster must be blindfolded or otherwise unseeing for the entire duration of the casting, so as to better focus their second sight on the Aethyric threads making up the target item's enchantments.
Consequences: If you fail your Casting Roll, you accidentally sever yourself from the Aethyr. You forever lose the Magical Sense skill, and thus, the ability to cast spells (be they Arcane or Divine). Whether there is a way for the caster to ever regain their magic is up to the GM, but this would likely require some form of divine or daemonic intervention.
Description: This spell permanently unravels the enchantments woven on a magical item, turning it mundane again.

TheSummoner

2023-11-30, 10:32 AM

It was long overdue. I'll summon the lollypop guild.

LCP, Sieghard has a fair bit of exp banked since completing Captain. I've been reluctant to do this, but would you allow him to gain Charm as an elite advance? I think he's gonna need it and it's either that or find a career I can justify him switching to that offers it.

LCP

2023-11-30, 11:20 AM

Sounds fair to me. 200XP as per ushe.

Is Sieghard going to Manann's Keep alone? With Ingwald in Ravenskird, Hanna in Manann's Keep and Ludo away, is he putting anyone in charge of Painford while he's away?

Here's a first draft of my proposed spell.

I assume this is first draft in the OOC-looking-for-suggestions sense and not in the ready-to-start-the-ROS-rules-process sense - correct me if I'm wrong.

A general suggestion, if it's useful: an easy way to come up with more thematic links for ingredients is to make the ritual more specific in what it does. e.g. if you specify you're using Aqshy to try to literally burn the magic away, then you get links to things to do with fuelling a fire. If you specify you're trying to unbind necromantic magic, you get links to things that are opposed to necromancy. If you specify the target is supposed to be a book you get links to things that are opposed to nerds.

LeSwordfish

2023-11-30, 11:45 AM

Consequences: If you fail your Casting Roll, you accidentally sever yourself from the Aethyr. You forever lose the Magical Sense skill, and thus, the ability to cast spells (be they Arcane or Divine). Whether there is a way for the caster to ever regain their magic is up to the GM, but this would likely require some form of divine or daemonic intervention.

Feels a bit nuclear - would this not prevent you from ever trying the ritual again?

LCP

2023-11-30, 12:08 PM

Forgot to reply to this:

Then I think we're on roughly the same page. I was thinking of a deluxe Viking longhouse. That would entail one, maybe two, entrances, no windows, and a hole to let out the smoke. Would the same apply here, just on a larger scale? And is the roof tiled or thatched?

Yes, that's about the shape of it. The roof is tiled with wooden shingles; it's been described before as having its front-facing gable lined with raven's skulls, with a big carved wooden raven head at the end of the centre beam.

-Sentinel-

2023-11-30, 04:19 PM

I assume this is first draft in the OOC-looking-for-suggestions sense and not in the ready-to-start-the-ROS-rules-process sense - correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct. Still need a couple more ingredients, and I welcome suggestions.

A general suggestion, if it's useful: an easy way to come up with more thematic links for ingredients is to make the ritual more specific in what it does. e.g. if you specify you're using Aqshy to try to literally burn the magic away, then you get links to things to do with fuelling a fire. If you specify you're trying to unbind necromantic magic, you get links to things that are opposed to necromancy. If you specify the target is supposed to be a book you get links to things that are opposed to nerds.
Fair! Thank you, this should help.

Not sure what's the opposite of necromancy, though. Is it life, or is it acceptance of death?

Feels a bit nuclear - would this not prevent you from ever trying the ritual again?
Consequences for failed rituals are always pretty harsh, and usually involve the ritual's magic bouncing back on its caster (often with lethal results). This seemed like the logical consequence.

If I fail, I suppose this is the kind of "injury" that I could prevent with my lone Fate Point, as I would if the consequence were death. And if I no longer have that Fate Point by then, and fail the ritual, I still get to do some interesting roleplay by making Elsa try to reinvent herself as a person. It's got an element of tragedy to it, like Jaime Lannister losing his sword hand.

TheSummoner

2023-11-30, 10:49 PM

Sounds fair to me. 200XP as per ushe.

Ok, before making it final, I did think of an alternative I'd like to float by you. Sieghard's got a fair bit of experience banked and has the minimum requirements to be done with Captain. While Charm is the priority skill at the moment, I would prefer switching him to a new career and giving him room to grow a bit more over just buying it as an elite advance if that's an option. The issue I'm running into with that is the exits from his current and previous careers that offer it don't really fit the character (it's rather hard to envision him as a Duelist or Merchant for example). Basic careers are on the table, though many of those run into the same issue and also raise further questions on the direction he'd go in the future.

If you'd be willing to go outside RAW though, there is a Steward career. It might not be on Sieghard's career exits, but it is literally his title and the mix of skills and talents make sense as things he'd pick up overseeing the Thornwood. He doesn't have the trappings either, but for that I'd argue that his one set of normal craftsmanship noble's garb and big fancy manor accomplish the same if not more in terms of status and are a lot more practical in a place like the Border Princes than two sets of best craftsmanship noble's garb (the writing kit he could just buy and since he's mostly literate now, it's a sensible purchase anyways.)

Opinions on that idea or other career options are more than welcome.

Is Sieghard going to Manann's Keep alone? With Ingwald in Ravenskird, Hanna in Manann's Keep and Ludo away, is he putting anyone in charge of Painford while he's away?

Shortly after the locusts when we enacted the rationing, Ingwald was recalled to Painford to handle the bookkeeping. Sieghard brought Rike with him to Ravenskird when he first went there and put her in charge when he left with it mentioned that he'd be returning to check in and help manage things as time allows.

After that, it got a lot less explicit. The plan was to enact the same rationing in Ravenskird, so it's reasonable to say that would involve sending him back and it's also reasonable to say that Ingwald could be doing a lot of back and forth keeping track of the numbers. If he's in Painford still, then he can look after it. If not, then another one of the veteran crossbowmen can keep things under control while Sieghard is away. Let's say Petar. Painford is fairly agreeable so I don't forsee there being an issue with that during Sieghard's hopefully brief absence.

Correct. Still need a couple more ingredients, and I welcome suggestions.

If you specify the target is supposed to be a book you get links to things that are opposed to nerds.

The ritual requires a dozen bloodbowl players to be present. For the duration of the ritual, the captain of the team must repeatedly dunk the casting wizard's head into a chamberpot while the rest of the team chant "Swirly! Swirly!"

...Or if you want to go with the fire theme instead, I dont know... The remains of a thousand year old tree blackened and charred to the core by flames. The blackened bones a creature killed by dragonfire. A best craftsmanship sword forged in the heat of a volcano. One hundred packets of Taco Bell diablo sauce.

Consequences for failed rituals are always pretty harsh, and usually involve the ritual's magic bouncing back on its caster (often with lethal results). This seemed like the logical consequence.

If I fail, I suppose this is the kind of "injury" that I could prevent with my lone Fate Point, as I would if the consequence were death. And if I no longer have that Fate Point by then, and fail the ritual, I still get to do some interesting roleplay by making Elsa try to reinvent herself as a person. It's got an element of tragedy to it, like Jaime Lannister losing his sword hand.

It's hard for me to argue against that without it feeling like a cop out, but I'd keep in mind the sort of gamble you'd be taking. Failure would mean Elsa goes from being the strongest combatant in the party to the weakest. Even without his hand, Jamie still had the Lannister name and the authority and loyalty that comes with that. Elsa would be losing a lot more in that comparison. I guess I'd at least caveat it with "Elsa only suffers this effect if she actually fails the casting roll. Not if she succeeds on that part but destroying the book is just not possible."

LCP

2023-12-01, 08:58 AM

Ok, before making it final, I did think of an alternative I'd like to float by you. Sieghard's got a fair bit of experience banked and has the minimum requirements to be done with Captain. While Charm is the priority skill at the moment, I would prefer switching him to a new career and giving him room to grow a bit more over just buying it as an elite advance if that's an option. The issue I'm running into with that is the exits from his current and previous careers that offer it don't really fit the character (it's rather hard to envision him as a Duelist or Merchant for example). Basic careers are on the table, though many of those run into the same issue and also raise further questions on the direction he'd go in the future.

If you'd be willing to go outside RAW though, there is a Steward career. It might not be on Sieghard's career exits, but it is literally his title and the mix of skills and talents make sense as things he'd pick up overseeing the Thornwood. He doesn't have the trappings either, but for that I'd argue that his one set of normal craftsmanship noble's garb and big fancy manor accomplish the same if not more in terms of status and are a lot more practical in a place like the Border Princes than two sets of best craftsmanship noble's garb (the writing kit he could just buy and since he's mostly literate now, it's a sensible purchase anyways.)

Hm... I'm not saying 'no' (it does seem very justified in-character) but I am a bit reluctant to completely short-circuit the career system.

Looking at the careers, Steward does seem explicitly designed to represent a head of household staff, rather than a local governor. If you do want a career change to represent growing into that role, how would you feel about Politician? The name makes it sound like it's for playing as Boris Johnson, but the description makes it very clear that it includes the kind of appointed official that Sieghard is, it has plenty of talky skills and it exits into Noble Lord.

Shortly after the locusts when we enacted the rationing, Ingwald was recalled to Painford to handle the bookkeeping. Sieghard brought Rike with him to Ravenskird when he first went there and put her in charge when he left with it mentioned that he'd be returning to check in and help manage things as time allows.

After that, it got a lot less explicit. The plan was to enact the same rationing in Ravenskird, so it's reasonable to say that would involve sending him back and it's also reasonable to say that Ingwald could be doing a lot of back and forth keeping track of the numbers. If he's in Painford still, then he can look after it. If not, then another one of the veteran crossbowmen can keep things under control while Sieghard is away. Let's say Petar. Painford is fairly agreeable so I don't forsee there being an issue with that during Sieghard's hopefully brief absence.

Ah, if I've just misremembered where Ingwald is then that's fine. So Ingwald's in charge and Sieghard's not taking anyone with him south?

TheSummoner

2023-12-01, 12:50 PM

Politician was one I had looked at, but dismissed because I wasn't sure it was fitting. Reading the description more closely, I'm thinking that dismissal was partially colored by modernism. If you think it's a better fit for Sieghard's position, I'm open to it. Is big fancy manor a suitable standin for best craftsmanship leather jack and pamphlets?

So Ingwald's in charge and Sieghard's not taking anyone with him south?

Sieghard will take Thom with him since he was initially in Hanna's group in Manaan's Keep. Aside from him, he'll leave everyone where they are and make due with the people he already has there. He'll also leave instructions to send Ludo south if he returns before Sieghard does. From an OOC perspective, I imagine I'm going to have to resolve things in Manaan's Keep or fail to before that's an option, but from an IC one, it gives him a plan B and it also puts us back in the same place.

<I’m busy here Giorgio! Do you want us to let just anyone wander through, eh? How many more people do you want to get eaten?>

I think it's safe to say that as soon as Sieghard hears about this, a line has been crossed from "nominal loyalty to Sforza in the name of stability" to full on "Hang the bastard, hang him high! Hoist his body to the sky! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Q9ZEdOLSE)"

LCP

2023-12-01, 01:12 PM

rax

2023-12-01, 05:08 PM

@ -Sentinel-

A general suggestion, if it's useful: an easy way to come up with more thematic links for ingredients is to make the ritual more specific in what it does. e.g. if you specify you're using Aqshy to try to literally burn the magic away, then you get links to things to do with fuelling a fire. If you specify you're trying to unbind necromantic magic, you get links to things that are opposed to necromancy. If you specify the target is supposed to be a book you get links to things that are opposed to nerds. Since Elsa is a fire wizard, wouldn't it be appropriate for her to focus on using fire for the ritual, as LCP suggests above?

A thematic ingredient could then be something like the "fire lit in a volcano" ingredient for The Body Gilded ritual, or a fire lit using a specific and unusual fuel. For a combination of fire and death, perhaps a fire lit from the bones of dead men? Or maybe even bones from an undead creature? (I hear the group knows where to find plenty of those :smallbiggrin: )

Another possible ingredient: the book must be wrapped in the funeral linens of a mummy (a normal or an undead one), which are highly flammable, and set on fire using the magic of Aqshy.

A thematic fire condition could be that the book must be placed in the flames of the fire and remain there for the duration of the ritual (could be more difficult than you'd think with a Book of Nagash)? Or that there must be multiple such fires set in a circle and the ritual must be performed within the circle?

Another fire condition - the caster must intentionally inflict a burn injury on themselves while casting the ritual, or perhaps cut themselves and drip blood into the flames? This probably requires losing one Wound permanently, like the Warning Wound effect from Night's Dark Masters.

A fiery and anti-nerd condition (or maybe it's an ingredient): an Orc shaman must be convinced to cast the Fires of Vengeance spell at the book a certain number of times during the ritual. Can't get more anti-nerd than an Orc, and they're historically enemies of vampires and Nehekarans, so the book would be a thematically appropriate target for the spell.

More anti-nerd stuff: The caster must desecrate (rip/tear, scribble dirty jokes, wipe their bottom with) a book stolen from a priest of Verena. Then maybe burn it for good measure during the ritual.

Something anti-necromancy: The ritual must be written down and read from parchment made from the skin of a necromancer (Klammenberg comes to mind if the party remembers where his body ended up), or written down with a pen made from a necromancer's finger bones? A necromancer's heart must be burned in the thematically appropriate fire as part of the ritual?

And if you go with the fiery theme, you'll probably need a very expensive brazier to do all the burning, though that may not count as a thematic ingredient.

@LCP
Would it make it easier to research the ritual if it's made really specific, i.e. it can only be used to disenchant a Book of Nagash?

...and this is the limit of my creativity for the evening. No energy left to post IC today, but hopefully tomorrow. :smallsmile:

-Sentinel-

2023-12-01, 06:07 PM

It's hard for me to argue against that without it feeling like a cop out, but I'd keep in mind the sort of gamble you'd be taking. Failure would mean Elsa goes from being the strongest combatant in the party to the weakest. Even without his hand, Jamie still had the Lannister name and the authority and loyalty that comes with that. Elsa would be losing a lot more in that comparison. I guess I'd at least caveat it with "Elsa only suffers this effect if she actually fails the casting roll. Not if she succeeds on that part but destroying the book is just not possible."
The description I provided already says "if you fail the casting roll". I think it's a whole other thing if the ritual goes off but proves insufficient for the task at hand. It's like the difference between Filomena (the cannon) blowing up, or her cannonball simply failing to breach the wall. The cannonball might bounce back in your general direction, but at least you're not taking a faceful of sharp metal splinters at extreme short range.

Since Elsa is a fire wizard, wouldn't it be appropriate for her to focus on using fire for the ritual, as LCP suggests above?
I agree. I see it as using the wind of Aqshy to burn the other winds (presumably Shyish) that make up the threads of the enchantment. The winds of magic go beyond the elements that symbolize them; Aqshy means not only fire, but also fury and destruction.

A thematic ingredient could then be something like the "fire lit in a volcano" ingredient for The Body Gilded ritual, or a fire lit using a specific and unusual fuel. For a combination of fire and death, perhaps a fire lit from the bones of dead men? Or maybe even bones from an undead creature? (I hear the group knows where to find plenty of those :smallbiggrin: )
The good news is that we know where to find volcanic cracks. We once fetched volcano fire for the late Beatrix Fassbender.

Another fire condition - the caster must intentionally inflict a burn injury on themselves while casting the ritual, or perhaps cut themselves and drip blood into the flames? This probably requires losing one Wound permanently, like the Warning Wound effect from Night's Dark Masters.
Interesting. I've also been considering permanent alterations to Elsa's body, like perhaps extra tattoos that might provide protection from Shyish or act as a conduit for Aqshy. Presumably the ink and designs would need to be quite specific.

A fiery and anti-nerd condition (or maybe it's an ingredient): an Orc shaman must be convinced to cast the Fires of Vengeance spell at the book a certain number of times during the ritual. Can't get more anti-nerd than an Orc, and they're historically enemies of vampires and Nehekarans, so the book would be a thematically appropriate target for the spell.
Sounds a bit too outlandish for me.

More anti-nerd stuff: The caster must desecrate (rip/tear, scribble dirty jokes, wipe their bottom with) a book stolen from a priest of Verena. Then maybe burn it for good measure during the ritual.
*sound of Adelbert indignantly pounding against the gate of Morr's realm*

In all seriousness, I don't think I want to anger Verena! Also, I'd rather avoid an overly scattershot approach. A ritual should be an arrow, not a blunderbuss.

And if you go with the fiery theme, you'll probably need a very expensive brazier to do all the burning, though that may not count as a thematic ingredient.
I've thought about a brazier before, when I was considering a souped-up Ruin and Destruction. The spell ingredient for Ruin and Destruction is "a white-hot piece of coal", so a ritual with similar effects might involve a larger amount of burning coal. (Which an assistant would need to replenish once in a while, because rituals take hours to cast.)

@ LCP: I've been talking about enchantments in terms of weaving and threads, and I just want to make sure this is an appropriate simile? Because if it is, ingredients might involve things such as woven or knit items, cobwebs, complex knots, etc.

LCP

2023-12-02, 07:07 AM

Would it make it easier to research the ritual if it's made really specific, i.e. it can only be used to disenchant a Book of Nagash?

My point about specificity was just that it gives you more hooks to hang linked ingredients on. There's no other secret mechanic at work.

I've been talking about enchantments in terms of weaving and threads, and I just want to make sure this is an appropriate simile? Because if it is, ingredients might involve things such as woven or knit items, cobwebs, complex knots, etc.

What am I, the simile police? If that's a comparison you want to make, go for it - I don't see any reason Elsa couldn't think that way.

LeSwordfish

2023-12-02, 08:35 AM

Could perhaps include something that's been unwoven - the longest thread from a prince's doublet, or something.

TheSummoner

2023-12-02, 02:26 PM

Ok, so Sieghard's exp expenditure

Academic Knowledge (Strategy/Tactics) +10
Career change to Politician
Charm
Command +20
Public Speaking
Schemer
Perception +10

Could've gone with master orator. It probably would've been useful, but it seemed weird to jump from untrained charm to that in one big advance. Maybe if he manages to prevent a massacre, it'll feel more justified.

RossN

2023-12-02, 08:54 PM

*sound of Adelbert indignantly pounding against the gate of Morr's realm*

In all seriousness, I don't think I want to anger Verena!

Don't forget by the time he died Adelbert had abandoned Verena for good (though of course that itself might render anything that belonged to him mystically useless.)

Thragka

2023-12-03, 06:13 AM

Well, I’m not sure that the other PCs were fully aware of the extent of Adelbert’s apostasy at the moment of his death. But it would be funny if he continued to shoot his legacy and the party in the collective foot from beyond the grave!

LCP

2023-12-03, 07:35 AM

I think it was in front of everyone when Adelbert renounced Verena - just after the escape from Nath.

-Sentinel-

2023-12-03, 05:46 PM

Don't forget by the time he died Adelbert had abandoned Verena for good
Heh. Forgot about that.

Let's try this. I made it more fire-based.

I'm keeping the consequences from the first draft. I hear your concerns, TheSummoner and LeSwordfish, but rituals are supposed to have harsh consequences if failed. If I go easy on myself, LCP would be well within his rights to decide my spell isn't as powerful as I envisioned it. Also, this offers better roleplaying opportunities than "the caster is burned to a crisp".

Holt's Grand Ritual of Fiery Unmaking

Type: Arcane (Lore of Fire)
Arcane Language: Magick
Ingredients:
Four tall brass braziers full of burning coals, lit with fire from the very bowels of the earth, each fed every hour with the same type of item as the target item (e.g., if the target is a book, you would need to burn books).
A master-crafted pair of scissors with obsidian blades.
A circle made from a mixture of salt and finely-ground bones that have bleached in the sun for at least a year.
Conditions: The braziers must not go out during the ritual. In order to better focus their second sight on the Aethyric threads making up the target item's enchantments, the caster should be blindfolded or otherwise unseeing for the entire duration of the casting; seeing anything with their eyes will require them to pass a concentration test in order to remain focused on their work.
Consequences: If you fail your Casting Roll, you accidentally burn away your own connection with the Aethyr. You forever lose the Magical Sense skill, and thus, the ability to cast spells (be they Arcane or Divine). Whether there is a way for the caster to ever regain their magic is up to the GM, but this would likely require some form of divine or daemonic intervention.
Description: This spell calls upon the purest essence of Aqshy to burn straight through the enchantments and substance of a magical object, like a red-hot knife through butter. In theory at least, this should result in the destruction of the target item in both the physical world and the Aethyr.

LCP, let me know if the ingredients are specific enough. Some of the ingredients for pre-made rituals are stuff like "a gong blessed by a dying priest", but the ritual creation system has a mechanic that can add complications to existing ingredients, so I'm erring on the reasonable side.

Once I have your green light, I'll secretly write down my estimated casting number, casting time, etc., and you'll write down yours. We can DM them to another player for "safekeeping".

Notes on the ingredients:
- The obsidian scissors have a dual link with the spell's nature and purpose: obsidian is good against magic and is of volcanic origin, which fits the firey theme. The dwarfs can likely craft the scissors for us, and I fully trust in their craftsmanship.
- The raven skulls from Morr's Seat would be a good source of finely-ground bones. I specify "bleached in the sun" because of the sun's probable link with Aqshy. The people of the Raven Hills are our allies in the fight against Nahorek, so they'll be cooperative, especially with Wadim and Bardhyl on our side. As for salt, it's often associated with protection against magic.

LCP

2023-12-04, 12:38 PM

LCP, let me know if the ingredients are specific enough.

You mean enough to get a +3 each on the Research Results table?

The braziers and the scissors seem clearly linked. The circle of salt and bone dust seems weaker, but you've shown your working, so I'll buy it.

Once I have your green light, I'll secretly write down my estimated casting number, casting time, etc., and you'll write down yours. We can DM them to another player for "safekeeping".

What, you don't trust me? :smallwink:

The RoS ritual rules seem a little vague to me on whether you roll on the Research Time table or not for the first draft. Since the process is already plenty long, I'm going to err on the side of 'not', and say that you're ready to try to cast your first draft at the end of the 1 month it says in that section. If I have my dates right I think that takes you pretty much through to the summer solstice - probably a good time for fire magic.

As well as writing down the secret numbers, though, you'll need to assemble all these ingredients by then (and if you're not counting on succeeding on the first time, you might want to stock up with multiples). It's 2 days' journey to Mirino, a week to Savonne, and almost 2 weeks to Morr's Seat (unless you fancy going by what's left of the desert road). What do you want to get from where, and who do you want to send to get it?

Some considerations:
Obsidian is not a material in high demand. If you want the dwarfs to make you something out of it, you'll probably have to find them some first.
Depending on the casting time, it sounds like you're going to be burning a lot of books. Books are fairly precious things - you probably won't find someone with that many books to sell outside the city (or maybe one of the big towns), and if you do, they will probably charge a lot.
Four tall brass braziers will be heavy and bulky (not to mention the coal) - probably not something that an ingredient-fetcher can carry without pack animals or a cart.

LeSwordfish

2023-12-04, 12:54 PM

I believe we discussed Ludo having a small collection of books that he could perhaps donate? As in, at his home in Sermena.

LCP

2023-12-04, 01:23 PM

That's slipped my memory but sounds OK. If it comes to it, maybe you could define how many he has (and how many he's willing to see burn) - but of course the bigger obstacle is that he's not in Caerfort to volunteer.

LeSwordfish

2023-12-04, 01:44 PM

Not a huge amount (but he was intensely proud of them) - [roll0], let's say.

-Sentinel-

2023-12-04, 09:29 PM

You mean enough to get a +3 each on the Research Results table?
I mean if they're sufficiently rare or specific to fulfill the "long-term planning and thorny preparations" requirement (RoS, p.170).

The RoS ritual rules seem a little vague to me on whether you roll on the Research Time table or not for the first draft. Since the process is already plenty long, I'm going to err on the side of 'not', and say that you're ready to try to cast your first draft at the end of the 1 month it says in that section. If I have my dates right I think that takes you pretty much through to the summer solstice - probably a good time for fire magic.
RoS is admittedly not the best-written sourcebook, but I gather ritual creation goes this way:
Create the Ideal (what I've just done above). Afterwards, the player and GM each separately estimate the ritual's casting number, casting time, etc., and keep their estimates secret for now.
Spend a month of in-game time writing the first draft.
At the end of the month, the player and GM compare their estimates to determine the modifiers for the Research step.
Next comes the Research step. It takes 1 to 5 months; thankfully, it skews towards the lower numbers, instead of being 1d5. At the end of this period, assuming you didn't blow yourself up, roll 1d100 on Table 6-11. This is the part where a ritual's consequences, casting number, ingredients, etc. can change (for better or worse), with generally better results if you earned lots of positive modifiers from the drafting phase. (Though the 44-46. More Casters result is actually a lot worse in most cases than, say, 9-15. Linked Consequence.)
Only then can you attempt to cast the ritual. This means that the minimum ritual creation time is two months, so we'll be past the solstice (but still in summer). If we're lucky.
Per the rulebook, there's an extra step where, even if you did everything right (including casting the ritual), there's only a flat 20% chance that your ritual will actually work as intended. But we agreed to ignore that part, because ritual creation already takes up enough time and resources without needing to do it multiple times until you get lucky.

As well as writing down the secret numbers, though, you'll need to assemble all these ingredients by then (and if you're not counting on succeeding on the first time, you might want to stock up with multiples). It's 2 days' journey to Mirino, a week to Savonne, and almost 2 weeks to Morr's Seat (unless you fancy going by what's left of the desert road). What do you want to get from where, and who do you want to send to get it?
To be honest, I was kinda hoping ritual prep would be something of a shared medium-term quest for the PCs, not just Elsa's pet project...

LCP

2023-12-05, 06:04 AM

I mean if they're sufficiently rare or specific to fulfill the "long-term planning and thorny preparations" requirement (RoS, p.170).

I see. I think those bulletpoints are more trying to put you in the right frame of mind for the whole process than setting up a checkpoint you have to pass at the beginning, but yes, your draft seems to be in the spirit of what a WFRP ritual is supposed to look like.

Spend a month of in-game time writing the first draft.
At the end of the month, the player and GM compare their estimates to determine the modifiers for the Research step.
Next comes the Research step. It takes 1 to 5 months

This is the point I was referring to (you didn't have to write the whole thing out, I've got the book!). In the first section, The Ideal, it says:

[...] you must spend a month of game time in research before the process can continue. [...] At the end of that time, you have assembled your First Draft.

The stuff about rolling on the Research Time table comes in the next section, which seems to imply that's the next thing you should do, but it doesn't explicitly state that the first draft requires more research. It just says that this is a loop that you should iterate, and we've already been told in the previous section that the research time for the First Draft is 1 month. 'Research' doesn't get capitalised or otherwise turned into a special game term anywhere (unlike First Draft and Final Draft), so there's no particular reason to think they're not talking about the same thing.

Then, under the next section:

At the end of each period of research, you attempt to cast the newly modified Draft.

Well, we already completed a period of research, the 1 month to come up with the First Draft. And while on the one hand, the text strongly implies that you've done a round through the let's-mess-with-your-ritual tables ('newly modified'), on the other, why would you be modifying it if you haven't tested it out yet? For all rounds except the first, the Draft is clearly the thing that you try to cast; if the First Draft is different why don't they spell that out?

To be clear, I don't think on balance that the interpretation I'm putting forward here is very likely to be Rules-As-Intended*, but I think it's Rules-As-They-Can-Be-Read**, and it could save you 1-5 IC months (which, if you roll poorly, is the rest of the campaign). You're the one doing it, so it's up to you which you prefer. The rolls on the previous tables don't modify the Casting Attempt table, so I don't think I'm trying to tempt you into doing something more dangerous here.

To be less rules-y about it, ROS also very explicitly gives the GM leeway to mess with its formula, and I'm still very open to doing that. I haven't really had time to sit down and think about How I Would Do It - with the group split so many ways it takes all my game time just to keep up - but if you have requests for things you want to modify, don't hesitate to ask.

To be honest, I was kinda hoping ritual prep would be something of a shared medium-term quest for the PCs, not just Elsa's pet project...

Then you're going to have to rope them in - not going to happen if you don't ask them. Although some of the other PCs do have some quite high-priority things of their own going on at the moment!

*Most notably, the RAI way forces you through at least one cycle of the 'roll dice with modifiers depending on how closely your expectations match the GM's' stuff, while if you do it my way, you have a 20% chance of bypassing that step.
**and as an experimentalist, Rules-As-They-Make-Most-Sense-To-Me - you don't go tinkering with something before you've collected some data as to what needs tinkering with! But I don't want to fall into the trap of thinking that a renaissance magician would be working like a 21st century scientist, so this isn't as relevant.

LCP

2023-12-05, 06:29 PM

The only thing I specifically want to do in Painford - probably the day after returning back - is to make a bit of a speech to the locals, including his plans for entering the timber industry and a general encouragement to keep their chins up. If you don't have any surprises for the 21st or 22nd, i'm happy to write all the way to that (or to go on pause until everyone else is caught up).

The only surprise (IC not OOC) is that Jarla will have arrived in Painford on I think the 19th and will be waiting around for Ludo's return.

I'm also not certain at present whether Sieghard will be back in Painford when Ludo gets there, or still down south.

-Sentinel-

2023-12-05, 07:27 PM

Well, we already completed a period of research, the 1 month to come up with the First Draft. And while on the one hand, the text strongly implies that you've done a round through the let's-mess-with-your-ritual tables ('newly modified'), on the other, why would you be modifying it if you haven't tested it out yet? For all rounds except the first, the Draft is clearly the thing that you try to cast; if the First Draft is different why don't they spell that out?
I still think a research step was intended to happen, but if you're going to save me a few in-game months, I'm obviously not going to insist on my interpretation. :smallwink: I appreciate it... I'd hate for Elsa to be effectively out of the game for almost the rest of the campaign.

Note that a month of research would still take us past the summer solstice, to mid-Vorgeheim (assuming no excessive delays in gathering the ingredients). The next astronomical event is Geheimnistag, the Day of Mystery. If I recall correctly, the attack on the Temple happened on Geheimnisnacht. Is it a particularly ill-omened time, or simply a good time to cast powerful spells?

Then you're going to have to rope them in - not going to happen if you don't ask them. Although some of the other PCs do have some quite high-priority things of their own going on at the moment!
Fair! I don't think it would be reasonable for Elsa to walk away from the Book and her research to go gather ingredients, so I'll deal with this by sending some IC messages.

LCP

2023-12-06, 08:20 AM

I still think a research step was intended to happen, but if you're going to save me a few in-game months, I'm obviously not going to insist on my interpretation. :smallwink: I appreciate it... I'd hate for Elsa to be effectively out of the game for almost the rest of the campaign.

Cool. Let's say it's 1 month research then, and we'll still roll on the research table, 'cos it's fun.

Note that a month of research would still take us past the summer solstice

Blerg, sorry, I got my mental wires crossed there - I'm tracking weeks since the famine clock started and also of the ritual research and I think I mixed the two up.

The next astronomical event is Geheimnistag, the Day of Mystery. If I recall correctly, the attack on the Temple happened on Geheimnisnacht. Is it a particularly ill-omened time, or simply a good time to cast powerful spells?

Yes. It's the one night of the year when both Mannslieb and Morrslieb are full. The flow of magic is strong and in Warhammer that's bad news.

Geheimnisnacht was also the night when the Library appeared the year before.

LeSwordfish

2023-12-06, 08:45 AM

is it too late for us to just put it back in the library

LCP

2023-12-06, 08:49 AM

I mean if you ask real nice Cacophrax might waive the late fee.

Destro_Yersul

2023-12-06, 12:03 PM

Maybe you can steal books from the library to supply the braziers. Gotta get those burnable books somewhere.

LCP

2023-12-06, 03:51 PM

@rax - how about another charm test to get Roza to risk her neck for a guy she just met

rax

2023-12-06, 04:09 PM

But he's so charming and manly! :smallbiggrin:

[roll0] vs. 68 (Fel 58, Charm +10)

FP re-roll if needed [roll1]

rax

2023-12-06, 04:12 PM

Well, he made it...just. Are there any house rules in play concerning Fortune Points? E.g. to an extra DoS? If so, could I spend it retroactively instead of using one for a re-roll?

LCP

2023-12-07, 03:50 PM

Yes, we do do that. I should put it at the front of the OOC - thought it was already there but apparently not.

-Sentinel-

2023-12-08, 09:35 AM

Thragka, I need to know if you're going to accept Elsa's mission.

I don't expect Urgrim to carry it out all by himself, because it's a big ask, especially if you want to keep a moderate level of activity in this game. But at the very least, I need Urgrim to deliver the message to those who can get those items to Elsa.

What we need:
Master-crafted scissors with blades of obsidian. (I recommend starting early on this one, because you have to find the obsidian and get it to a master craftsman. The crafting might take a while.)
Four tall brass braziers. (May need to have them custom-made, so as above, I recommend getting on it early. Also consider the logistics of getting them to Caerfort.)
Enough coal to burn in the four braziers for several hours.
As many books as you can scrounge up. (Can't say exactly how many without revealing ahead of time my estimate for the ritual's duration.)
Fire lit from a volcano. (At this step, some redundancy is easy. Light 2-3 lanterns while you're there and keep them in separate locations.)
A few pounds of finely-ground bones that have bleached in the sun for at least a year.
A few pounds of salt.

Maybe we should divide them up between the PCs? That would clear things up, reduce duplication of effort and expenditure, and spur us into action.

Our allies with resources to help:
The PCs (duh)
Wadim
Hieronymus and other clergy (incl. the Morrites)
The Dwimmulsons
The lords of the Reaches (Sforza, Carraciolo, Valdes, Sussman)
Sandu, Suzanna, Filomena, and the guilds of Putbad (not involved in the war on Nahorek, but likely "know a guy who knows a guy")

LCP

2023-12-08, 10:30 AM

As many books as you can scrounge up. (Can't say exactly how many without revealing ahead of time my estimate for the ritual's duration.)

I've recorded my estimates for the ritual numbers, you can reveal away.

Fire lit from a volcano. (At this step, some redundancy is easy. Light 2-3 lanterns while you're there and keep them in separate locations.)

Every lantern you want to maintain like this needs someone to refill its oil several times a day. Might be easiest (and cheapest) to do this as close to the time you're going to use it as possible.

Also, I understand that Elsa needs to stay behind to do her research, but that doesn't mean she can't get involved in the planning of where and how to acquire these things. The other PCs have a lot on their plate; if you're going to ask favours of them it helps to make those favours easy.

-Sentinel-

2023-12-08, 12:36 PM

I've recorded my estimates for the ritual numbers, you can reveal away.
Honor system? Fine by me. :smallwink:

Magic: 3
XP: 300 (cost waived if you actually design the ritual)
Casting number: 24
Casting time: 6 hours

LCP

2023-12-11, 05:21 AM

@rax:

Are the Tileans taking any meat as taxes or only live animals?

The stuff they take for taxes is stuff that can survive weeks/months of storage and transport. But they also source their own supplies in Morr’s Seat, and that includes any fresh food they can get.

If Bardhyl goes ahead with the food poisoning gambit, then he'd want her cooking or at least supervising the meal in question. Actually bringing in the meat could be handled by whoever's usually responsible for that, assuming they're vrani who'd be willing the help out.

Giving the garrison food poisoning could have consequences for her even if they didn't suspect it was intentional. She’ll need convincing.

rax

2023-12-11, 12:36 PM

Righto, third time's the Charm...

[roll0] vs. 68

Edit: You want me to write up an argument first, or do you want to go directly to Roza's reaction?

LCP

2023-12-11, 02:19 PM

It'd be good to have something to go off IC, yes. I'm interested to hear the same thing as her!

rax

2023-12-11, 02:47 PM

Right now, the argument is that Bardhyl's player is heading straight for a miserable man cold. If my brain hasn't been replaced by mush tomorrow, I'll get an IC post up then.

rax

2023-12-13, 10:52 AM

Temporarily free of the brain fog, Bardhyl's player makes an attempt to convince an NPC he barely knows to do something dangerous for the greater good! :smallredface:

TheSummoner

2023-12-13, 11:06 AM

I meant to roll this IC, but submitted my post without it. Perception vs 61 to make sure Sussman isn't watching (but probably still heard some of that)

[roll0] vs 61
[roll1] reroll

LCP

2023-12-13, 04:44 PM

Edited in a reply to Bardhyl - sorry, was writing my post on the underground and you ninja'd me.

RossN

2023-12-14, 06:06 AM

Sorry LeSwordfish I missed Ludo had already made contact with Jarla. :smallredface:

TheSummoner

2023-12-14, 01:43 PM

Just to make sure I understand the situation, are the people around Sieghard preventing him from going about his business or just sorta watching? If it's the latter, he'd still want to see if Marien or Gerhardt are less suicidally determined to put themselves in front of the Iron Company. Most of what he'd say is likely to be a rehash of the conversation with Lottie, so that much can probably be abstracted.

LCP

2023-12-16, 06:01 AM

"Morr save me! They know because they're already committed to the cause!" Bardhyl retorted, throwing up his hands in despair.

Want to check I understand what Bardhyl's saying before I respond for Roza - is he not planning to meet with the people he wants to take part in the attack before it kicks off?

rax

2023-12-16, 09:48 AM

Oh he definitely needs to do that, no question.

However, I've gotten the impression from Wadim that there's solid support for doing something about the Tileans and that he's got several groups lined up and ready to act if Bardhyl can lay out a plan that seems likely to succeed. Based on this, I've assumed Bardhyl's first proper meeting with the other conspirators would be less about convincing people to ally with him than to lay out a plan and get people to agree to try it. I've also assumed that Wadim's work means that most or all of the people he's spoken to are aware of the others who are considering acting against the Tileans, but perhaps that's a misinterpretation on my part? In any case, this reasoning is why Bardhyl says the others are already committed to the cause, rather than a plan.

Does that clear things up?

LCP

2023-12-16, 02:29 PM

I've also assumed that Wadim's work means that most or all of the people he's spoken to are aware of the others who are considering acting against the Tileans, but perhaps that's a misinterpretation on my part?

I think that's an extrapolation at least - I don't think Wadim has said anything to that effect.

To be clear about what Roza's asking, she is expecting there will be a meeting where you tell your (already committed) allies the plan of action. That's what she wants to be there for. Is that still a no?

Thragka

2023-12-16, 04:21 PM

“Yes,” said Urgrim, “I agree with Elsa.”

Sorry for my inactivity this week; I’ve run up a lot of deadlines with regards to grading my students’ exams. I’ve submitted all the grades now, though, so I’ll be much more free from tomorrow.

rax

2023-12-16, 04:24 PM

I think that's an extrapolation at least - I don't think Wadim has said anything to that effect. Not outright, but I feel Bardhyl's been getting a whole lot of encouraging feedback from Wadim about the number of people who'd be prepared to fight. Assuming he's not just grandstanding, it seemed likely to me that he would have had to sell the idea to the various groups by telling them who else is prepared to take the risk.

To be clear about what Roza's asking, she is expecting there will be a meeting where you tell your (already committed) allies the plan of action. That's what she wants to be there for. Is that still a no? No, that's more doable, but Bardhyl would still want to check in with the others before agreeing to bring her to such a meeting. The point is that he hasn't secured the assent of anyone else to reveal their participation to yet more people. He's not the unquestioned leader of the People's Front of the Raven Hills (yet), so my thinking is that in a clan-based society like the Vrani, making that decision without consultation could be considered a case of serious overreach. But maybe I'm overthinking things here? :smallredface:

Of course, there's also the matter of there not being a final plan of action to reveal until Bardhyl knows whether or not Roza is going to agree to do her part. Because if she isn't, he'll have to prepare a plan B for the meeting anyway.

LCP

2023-12-17, 07:21 AM

I think both these things are about trust. Wadim is a religious leader; if he gives his word about something like this, people take that seriously (and if they didn't trust him, he could lie about a list of names just the same as anonymous numbers). What Roza is asking is to be trusted as much as any of these others you're planning to involve. Any of them could go to the Tileans. And if Bardhyl wants to lead, he's going to have to ask people to trust his decisions - including ones like whether he can trust Roza.

If you want me to reply to the IC as-is, let me know and I will - I'm just trying to make sure there's no misunderstanding before proceeding.

rax

2023-12-17, 02:54 PM

Oh yes, it's certainly about trust. I've been working on the assumption that Wadim is trusted, but Bardhyl needs to earn his stripes, making it harder for him to assume any amount of agreement from anyone but his own men, old friends, and family. The point at which I envisioned asking people to directly trust his decisions is when he presents a plan for dealing with the Tileans and asks the others to put their faith in it.

While it's obviously also the case that anyone could betray the cause at any time, bringing Roza in and having her turn out to be a turncoat would be a direct result of Bardhyl's actions, so he's personally responsible for the consequences in that case.

Given that you've clarified what Roza is after at this point, I'll edit my last IC post a bit to reflect that, then we can move on.

Edit: IC edit complete.

-Sentinel-

2023-12-18, 12:09 PM

I’ve submitted all the grades now, though, so I’ll be much more free from tomorrow.
That's great. I'm waiting for an IC response from Urgrim, by the way.

rax

2023-12-21, 03:41 PM

@LCP

I'll put up an OOC post with Bardhyl's plans for the next few days tomorrow.

rax

2023-12-23, 05:10 PM

Stuff for Bardhyl to do in the next few days:

1. Find out how the Iron Company patrols the town - how many in a single patrol and what routes and schedules they follow. Map that to any decent spots where they can be trapped and ambushed.

2. Find out how the patrols communicate with Orso in the hall. Do they send runners if there's trouble or do they signal with a horn or something similar?

3. Scout out the gate to see how and when it would be easiest to deal with the gate guard. Is there a good spot inside or outside the gate from which to shoot the guard full of arrows? Or would it be easiest to walk up to the guard and knife him/them?

4. Same thing with the guards standing guard at the hall during the night.

5. If possible, find out about the Company's meal times. How do they eat during the day - do they gather to eat in the hall or do they rotate in and out? I.e. is there something like stew on the fire at all times and the squads eat when they're able? (I imagine he could send word to Roza to ask about this one evening)

6. Let Wadim know what he found out from Roza and ask him to set up a meeting in a few days.

7. Ask Wadim to scrounge up some weapons for Bardhyl and his gang. Bows would be welcome, though Bardhyl and Grim prefer hand weapons and shields.

Thragka

2023-12-24, 12:25 PM

Glædelig jul fra Danmark!

rax

2023-12-24, 12:31 PM

And the same to you from across the Sound. :smallwink:

TheSummoner

2023-12-24, 06:58 PM

And a happy belated Festivus for the rest of us.

LeSwordfish

2023-12-25, 02:50 AM

https://64.media.tumblr.com/e24b632ad5df29153eca5c2457de462f/3fcb20e6265897b2-3f/s1280x1920/c4671d86acf8ddfdc586ba05e6076e993dd25663.jpg

LCP

2023-12-25, 05:57 AM

merry crissmass yoo orrible grotz

RossN

2023-12-25, 08:24 AM

Happy Christmas all! :smallsmile:

LCP

2023-12-27, 06:57 AM

OK, back online post-Xmas.

Regarding Bardhyl's stuff, for each thing on the list I’ll tell you how long I think it'll need, and what skill check (if any) is appropriate. If you can tell me then who’s assigned to each task (and give me their rolls) then I can figure out how long the whole list takes and give you the results.

1. Find out how the Iron Company patrols the town - how many in a single patrol and what routes and schedules they follow. Map that to any decent spots where they can be trapped and ambushed.

I think 2 days’ observations should give you a decent picture, and a Stealth check at +20 would be appropriate to avoid the Tileans noticing they're being watched. +30 if the watchers look like vrani (so blend in better).

2. Find out how the patrols communicate with Orso in the hall. Do they send runners if there's trouble or do they signal with a horn or something similar?

Incidents that the street patrols don't feel they handle by themselves are probably not happening with great frequency. I think the only way you’ll get a decent answer here is to stage something - if you want to do that, give me the deets of how.

3. Scout out the gate to see how and when it would be easiest to deal with the gate guard. Is there a good spot inside or outside the gate from which to shoot the guard full of arrows? Or would it be easiest to walk up to the guard and knife him/them?

This can be done in a day, and is pretty easy - no tests required for answering the basic questions. A successful Perception test might glean some additional info.

4. Same thing with the guards standing guard at the hall during the night.

1 night, will need a Stealth check to avoid notice (at +30 thanks to it being dark).

5. If possible, find out about the Company's meal times. How do they eat during the day - do they gather to eat in the hall or do they rotate in and out? I.e. is there something like stew on the fire at all times and the squads eat when they're able? (I imagine he could send word to Roza to ask about this one evening)

Roza will happily tell you that.

6. Let Wadim know what he found out from Roza and ask him to set up a meeting in a few days.

He’ll need to know who/how many people you want to gather for the meeting. Bearing in mind the larger the gathering the trickier it is to hide.

7. Ask Wadim to scrounge up some weapons for Bardhyl and his gang. Bows would be welcome, though Bardhyl and Grim prefer hand weapons and shields.

He can manage that.

rax

2023-12-29, 06:38 PM

OK, back online post-Xmas.

...If you can tell me then who’s assigned to each task (and give me their rolls) then I can figure out how long the whole list takes and give you the results. I'm assuming Bardhyl can't do this all by himself, because he'd definitely have the best chance if he did. :smallamused:

I think 2 days’ observations should give you a decent picture, and a Stealth check at +20 would be appropriate to avoid the Tileans noticing they're being watched. +30 if the watchers look like vrani (so blend in better). Let's say Afrim and Kreshnik get this job. They're both vrani, so the Stealth test would be vs. 71 (Ag 41, difficulty +30).

[roll0]

Incidents that the street patrols don't feel they handle by themselves are probably not happening with great frequency. I think the only way you’ll get a decent answer here is to stage something - if you want to do that, give me the deets of how. Probably too risky. I'll try and devise a flexible plan instead.

This can be done in a day, and is pretty easy - no tests required for answering the basic questions. A successful Perception test might glean some additional info. Bardhyl will do this himself. He has Perception +20 so would be testing vs. 64 (Int 44, Perception +20). Having FP for a re-roll is also useful...

[roll1]

FP re-roll: [roll2]

1 night, will need a Stealth check to avoid notice (at +30 thanks to it being dark). Whoever's got the night shift watching the guards will get this job. Same test as for observing patrols, i.e. vs. 71 (though if Bardhyl could do this, the test would be vs. 85).

[roll3]

He’ll need to know who/how many people you want to gather for the meeting. Bearing in mind the larger the gathering the trickier it is to hide. Ideally, it needs to be everyone with enough authority to pledge themselves and whatever followers they have to join in the uprising. Of course, I have no idea how many people that would be. :smallredface:

In post #994, Wadim says he's been talking to "the Karvan chiefs". Would that be the Karvan tribe mentioned in the Raven Hills Bible? The Vrakos are said to be the largest tribe and the owners of Morr's Seat. Do they have any "chiefs" or are they represented by someone else, e.g. Danut the smith? Does Bardhyl's friend Valmir have any pull of his own?

LCP

2023-12-30, 06:00 AM

In post #994, Wadim says he's been talking to "the Karvan chiefs". Would that be the Karvan tribe mentioned in the Raven Hills Bible?

Yes. They mostly live outside Morr's Seat, so aren't the best placed to take place in the plan to jump Orso - the Tileans would certainly notice a whole bunch of out-of-towners suddenly congregating inside the walls.

The Vrakos are said to be the largest tribe and the owners of Morr's Seat. Do they have any "chiefs" or are they represented by someone else, e.g. Danut the smith? Does Bardhyl's friend Valmir have any pull of his own?

The last proper Chief with a capital C was Barbas, who was overthrown by the guy Rorik eventually overthrew. Since then the only 'chiefs' would be more in the sense that Wadim is using it, i.e. the heads of extended families and other respected figures. Danut would certainly count. Valmir doesn't have settled ties but might have some leadership among the other survivors of Rorik's warband.

Wadim can certainly arrange to bring everyone who fits that bill inside the town together for a meeting.